Justine Bateman on Parenting in the Age of Instagram, Beauty Standards for Men and Women, and Dealing with Critics ｜ Ep. 81
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 13 minutes
Words per Minute
179.09897
Summary
Justine Bateman was a superstar back in the 80s and 90s thanks to her role as Mallory, the daughter on the hit show Family Ties, working with Michael J. Fox and a cast of all-stars. And she now has just written, directed, and produced a film that s about to come out called Violet, starring Olivia Munn and Justin Theroux.
Transcript
00:00:08.560
Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.
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Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
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working with Michael J. Fox and a cast of All Stars.
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And she now has just written, directed, and produced a film that's about to come out called
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Violet, starring Olivia Munn and Justin Theroux.
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But the real reason I want to talk to Justine Bateman is because she has written two books.
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The first one, and I talked to her about this on my NBC show, was about fame.
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And in particular, losing fame and just how illusory it is and what nonsense it is, but the pain and losing it and what that taught her, right?
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It's like post being a huge star and what that's been like.
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But the second book, which is called Face, One Square Foot of Skin, is about something else entirely.
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And how much pressure there is not to do it, right?
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Like the last thing you're supposed to do is age as a woman anywhere, and certainly in Hollywood.
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And now it's creeping over to men to a lesser extent.
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Sure, sure, to a lesser extent, but certainly those who are on camera.
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And so we're going to talk about what she's learned because Justine has been bullied.
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Because she chose to age naturally, gracefully.
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She doesn't get the filler, Botox, plastic surgery.
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And as a result, she gets trolled online mercilessly.
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So just so the audience understands, it's coming out in March.
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And you've got a cast of all stars, Olivia Munn, Justin Theroux.
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You wrote it, you directed it, and you produced it?
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And it was supposed, we finished this last year.
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It was supposed to premiere at South by Southwest Film Festival 2020.
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But that was one of the first events to get canceled because of the shutdown.
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And so here we are at South by Southwest 2021 for Mirriott.
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So I looked it up online just to see what it was about.
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I feel like this messaging is right up your alley.
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But can you just tell us what it's about so people understand?
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It's about the thoughts we have in our heads or in the film, I call it the voice that treats us like crap that tells us, you know, the example I use is, it just makes us make fear-based decisions.
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And the example I use is, it'll say like, don't wear that shirt to the party or no one's going to talk to you.
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And consciously or unconsciously, we think it's true.
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And I believe the more times we make decisions like that based in fear, the further and further away we get from being our true selves.
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So this is about someone who realizes that that voice has been lying to her her whole life.
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And it's kind of a map as to how to get from a life where you're making fear-based decisions and not being yourself to a life where you're making instinct-based decisions and you are being yourself.
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And, you know, we go into her work life, her family life, the whole thing.
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I like this because in today's day and age, it's all about authenticity.
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And I don't think most people really understand what that means.
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I think they're just trying to try their best to seem authentic rather than just let it fly.
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And I think that what you find when you are true to yourself is most of the time it works out and it winds up settling as it should.
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The people who are attracted to you as friends, as lovers, whatever it is, they're there because they should be, because you really are being yourself.
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Sometimes your authentic self gets you, you know, some sort of injury that you didn't foresee.
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And, you know, I think that's one of the reasons that most people make fear-based decisions and are not being themselves.
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The ones who aren't being themselves, I believe, it has a lot to do with people pleasing and not wanting to feel outside of the tribe, if you will.
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And I think a lot of that goes back to our evolutionary roots.
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And part of staying alive is, again, we're getting really down to, like, you know, the core function of our brain, you know, staying alive, a lot of that has to do with making sure that you can be provided for,
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making sure that you have access to, you know, food and shelter and companionship is good for our, you know, kind of emotional survival.
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But a lot of that, I think, is based in just making sure you have enough to, you know, when the tribe brings in the killed gazelle or something,
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want to make sure that you have a piece of that.
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And if you're outside of that, and I know I'm getting really, I'm speaking really, I'm not an anthropologist, but from what I know of anthropology, it just rings true to me.
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Because if you, if you engage that thought that says, like, don't wear that shirt to the party and I want to talk to you.
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And if you, if you engage it and say, well, why?
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And you follow the chain of, of thoughts that follow, like, well, then I won't have any friends.
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Well, then if I ever need someone, I'm in trouble, I won't have anyone to call.
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Well, then maybe I will lose my job and then what will happen?
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And then you follow that chain down and it winds up that you are, you know, desolate and in the streets and then you die.
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So I do believe that when we, when we make the decision to change our shirt, because we're afraid no one's going to talk to us, we're actually reacting to the fear of being desolate in the streets and dying.
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Because it's an irrational fear that is linked to this ear, this core concern that our system has of, of actually perishing.
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So I think it's something to look at because I have found that once you expose those sort of thoughts, those irrational kinds of fears, then just the mere exposure starts to dissolve that fear.
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It starts to erode that fear, just like anything in nature, you know, you put it out in the elements and it'll start to erode.
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I always try to not edit those fears before I express them, you know, actually to a person or write it down or something so that it can get that kind of exposure.
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And, and I've found that to, you know, um, uh, I've had a lot of success with, uh, that kind of process, you know, to having, because I don't want to change people around me.
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I'm here for like a second in a time, in the timeline of life.
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But I want to change how I react to what I want to remove my buttons.
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I don't want to remove the button pushers or change how they're pushing buttons.
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I just want to remove my buttons so I can be around all of that and, and have it, and have it not affect me at all.
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And that's one, that's a, that's a method I use to do that.
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And be well, that's, that's one of my things actually that I, I hate about like all the cancel culture is there's always going to be mean people.
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You know, we're not, we're not going to get rid of all the people who do something bad or say something bad or feel something bad.
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And as you say, removing your buttons, which is possible.
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It doesn't mean you, you don't fight injustice or, you know, stand up for what you think is right.
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I mean, more like somebody says something that just really, uh, like affects you.
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Like you're going along, you're having a happy day.
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And then somebody makes a comment about your hair and it just, it tweaks you, you know, and the rest of your day, you're consumed with the thought of this.
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And it makes me feel, it makes you feel bad about yourself and all this.
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And when something like that happens to me, then I have to go write about it and go like, okay, what, what, what button did that push me?
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That, that person should have been able to say that.
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And I can just, and it cannot bother me at all.
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But why some, there's something in me that, you know, really pricked some sort of sore or flew in through some sort of open window or door in me.
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You know, if I use a metaphor of me being a house.
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Because when I, that piece, like physical critiques, I actually don't relate to that because I'll tell you, I grew up in a house where I was criticized all the time, but not in a mean way.
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We were Irish and it was, you know, half Italian, half Irish.
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And it was just sort of our bread and butter to mock one another lovingly.
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And I wonder, like, what was your childhood experience when it, because you, you talk about this in your books.
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Well, the whole reason that, that, you know, I wrote this second book was because of that, you know, that one chapter in the first book, Fame, where, no, all the attacks I've gotten, I mean, you know, some in school where people kid and everybody's got a nickname, right?
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That's just like, if you didn't have a nickname, you feel left out, you know, like some sort of mocking nickname.
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Um, no, but for me, all the attacks came from, uh, fans, I guess, online and anti-fans online.
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Um, so yeah, I, I had that one chapter in Fame about how people, um, criticize my face as it was getting older.
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And, and, uh, and then I talk about, you know, why I decided to absorb that, why I thought they were right and I was wrong.
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And then I thought, well, why do we even think that way about women's older faces?
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So that's where the second book came, um, came from.
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But, um, that was, those are harder, uh, those were harder for me to, um, remove my buttons for, because there were so many people saying, I mean, I could find many, many, many message boards related to that topic.
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And so, you know, part of my brain goes, well, if there are a lot of people saying, it must be true.
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I mean, I think it's, but then I had to go, no, there's no, there, no, it's not.
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You know, and then you go, I hope I'm not deluding myself.
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You know, and I had all those kinds of thoughts.
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Well, I, I love the saying, your only problem is your belief that you have a problem, you know, and it's, if you can get mind control over how you see it, then you dismantle your critics.
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Well, and when you think about it, you know, the way you think about a situation, I mean, the only thing I feel like we have control over is, I mean, we have control over the choices we make and stuff.
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But a lot of times, the only thing we have control over is our perception of the situation.
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So, so yes, if somebody says something to you that, that, you know, affects you, affects your self-esteem and the way you, your identity, identity, I heard somebody say you can either have an identity or a personality, pick one.
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So, so let's say it affects your personality or your confidence, better, better word.
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The only person who's keeping that negative thought alive that is affecting your confidence is you, really.
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I mean, you know, the mind will rehearse it over and over and over and over and over again until it's dug in there pretty well, until it becomes, this idea then becomes a belief about yourself.
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And I'm not talking about like self-help methods, like affirmations, because I've not found, maybe that's worked for some people, I've not found that to be helpful.
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Well, I found it more helpful to get to the root fear that is keeping that rehearsal of that negative thought alive, get to that root fear, because that's the thing that is, that's the engine for that, the repetition of that thought.
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You know, I was thinking about this after the Meghan Markle interview, because she made a comment that she tried to stay away from the press coverage of her.
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And I thought, right on, that was the right move.
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And then she said, but her, her quote, friends would call her up and say, it's bad, it's bad.
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And A, the thought that she could be protected from tabloid press is, I think, a fantasy.
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But B, I thought, people have done this to me, and I always tell them, don't forward me to negative articles about myself.
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I don't, you may think you're doing me a favor, you're not doing me any favors.
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There's a reason I avoid that stuff, like the bus exhaust it is.
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And I thought, you know, maybe some of her unhappiness could have been avoided.
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I realize it's out there, it's the buzz, it's the smog hanging over.
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You can only try to shield yourself from the most negative forces and sort of try to put in more positivity in that head.
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And, you know, her world had a lot of positivity to look at, a lot of positivity, as does mine, you know, as does most people's.
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And if it doesn't, then you got to work on that, right?
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But willingly taking in the negativity is step one.
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And then step two is when it gets to you, whether you're willingly taking it in or not, working on how you react to it, how you choose to react to it.
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I'm going to offer something slightly different.
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For me, knowing it was out there, knowing that, you know, and specifically negative, negative things about my face.
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When I say my root fear, I mean like, okay, let's say that's true, then therefore what in my life?
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What's going to happen to me if all of that's true?
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So for me, it was, I want to see all of this because I want to be able to read all of it and have it not affect me at all.
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So I want to go like, oh, that, that thing that they just said, oh, that, now I know it's just somebody who doesn't know me and God knows what they look like.
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But it's, to me, like, that's not a, you know what I mean?
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Like, it's, it's not like, you know, all the, the, the most attractive, smooth-faced people in the world were saying this stuff about my face getting older.
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And then, and then I go like, okay, how does that, why does that hit me?
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For example, okay, I read that and like, I'm afraid, oh, if everybody thinks that, then nobody's going to look at my face.
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Because people will, will turn away from looking at me.
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And then, therefore, they won't look at my work.
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And then no one will ever go see the films I make, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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And then I will never be able to work again, which is something that's really important to me.
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So you see how it's tied to, just as an example, tied to like a really core fear of mine.
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Because if I couldn't work anymore, then I would, I would, that's not what I signed up for.
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I'd be really unhappy in this life that I have.
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So what I had to do then, I had to go, wait, okay, it's write it out without judging it, right?
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And then after reading that, going like, wait, do, now, wait, but this flies in the face of what I believe to be true in my life, which is that I get a basket of things.
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I get a bunch of situations, you know, with work that are for me.
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You know, you get, you get a bunch that are for you.
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You know, Damien gets a bunch that are for him.
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So no matter what anyone thinks of my face, these things can't be removed from me.
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How do you get to that point when in your industry, looks are important, especially if you're going to be on camera.
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There's this ridiculous standard that's totally unattainable by mere mortals.
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So how do you get yourself past the point that you can still access your basket, which may include on camera work?
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Well, you have to counter it with, with how I understand life works.
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Regardless, regardless of my gender, my age, any of those things.
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Maybe I'll know all this stuff, whether or not it's real when I die.
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I like the results in my life better than imagining that all these people are right.
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Let's take a step back, just to get the audience up to speed on how we got here.
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I don't know if we can even call you a child actor.
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I don't know if it was certainly one of the most successful shows of the 80s, if not, at least top three, right?
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I mean, one of the most successful shows of all time, for sure.
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You were this gorgeous, sort of, you played the ditzy sister to Michael J. Fox.
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I mean, he, I love the story about him that I saw not long ago saying, um, everybody said he remained a gentleman throughout the whole thing.
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That even though it became this huge star, he never wanted star treatment.
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And that NBC actually wanted to give him special billing in the opening credits of the show.
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And he declined, stayed the third top billing for the entire.
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Because at a time when there weren't 200 channels, everybody was watching one of three channels.
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And everybody, like, what were the numbers on that show?
00:21:09.120
So, the 80s, yeah, you didn't have a consumer-facing internet.
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So, it was about, you'd get about somewhere between 20 to, like, 40 million people watching you every week.
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And it was, because it was, you had to, I mean, unless you were really good with a VCR player, you had to watch it live.
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But, yeah, I mean, it's definitely not that way now.
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And then I moved on from there and did, like, you know, worked as an actress for many, many years.
00:21:59.140
And just so the audience has a perspective, the Golden Globes this year got 7 million people watching it.
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The Oprah, Meghan Markle special, Prince Harry, had 17, which is considered a huge success.
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Yeah, and 17, right, 17 million people would, you would be on the, on the, what they call on the bubble.
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You may not, if you were a show back in the 80s and you had a 17, you had 17 million viewers, you're probably going to get canceled.
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It's, it's hard to, like, get your arms around, but it does explain what superstars people like Ted Danson were, you know, starring in Cheers and Kelsey Grammer, Frasier and the cast of Friends.
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It's more in the 90s, but still the numbers were huge back then.
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Okay, so you, you're rocking and rolling and your first book was more about fame and what it's like when it starts to leave.
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And your second book is about, I love it, a face, one square foot of skin and about aging.
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And it's such a, such a different, sadly, perspective.
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You know, like I said, in that book, Fame, there was that one chapter about accidentally Googling my name and, and seeing the autocomplete be, Jesse Bama looks old.
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And at the time I was like, I was like 40 and I'd always looked young for my age.
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And I was like, wait, what, am I, am I there now?
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And, um, but then once I got on the other side of that, it took a while to sort of shape that interesting way.
00:23:39.160
And I talk about that in, in the book, Fame, the one you were talking about.
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But then I, I started thinking about like, for, for, for the new book, Face, I started thinking, like, why, why do we even, why does society even have this position?
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I mean, it's just like, you know, let's say one, one square foot of skin on somebody's face.
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Like, why do they have this position that it needs to be fixed?
00:24:00.840
And I didn't like the fact that we had jumped from, um, wow, plastic surgery.
00:24:07.880
You know, it would be unusual for anyone to get it.
00:24:10.540
You know, you know, Joan Rivers was getting it.
00:24:12.540
And then maybe somebody's grandma, wealthy grandma or something.
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Dolly Parton, Jane Fonda, but you can count them.
00:24:19.060
You can count them on one hand, the ones who were sort of publicly getting it.
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You know, it wasn't, um, it wasn't a consideration.
00:24:27.980
It wasn't a, it wasn't, it didn't seem like an option really.
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And then we, we just seemed to hustle so quickly over to, um, well, these are the procedures that are possible.
00:24:39.580
You know, you can do Botox or you can put, use filler and all this sort of thing.
00:24:44.380
And then we just slammed right into, well, when, when is everyone getting it done?
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Not should you, but when, are you going to start young?
00:25:02.040
I think, and I think the core thought that, that motivates, um, a lot of these procedures, the core thought that, oh, there's something wrong with my face and I need, I need to fix it.
00:25:13.160
I think that is a very strange idea that has now become kind of woven into the fabric of the American woman now.
00:25:25.000
And I, I just, I just think it's worth looking at and going, hold on, what, why?
00:25:32.140
More with Justine in one minute on the Hollywood standards imposed on mere mortals.
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I feel the pressure to try to keep looking young, you know, in order to be attractive.
00:25:51.600
One of the reasons I admire you, cause you're just like, man, F that.
00:25:55.900
But my husband, he doesn't think like that at all.
00:25:59.560
You know, he's, he's also getting some wrinkles on men.
00:26:03.540
It's considered distinguished or hot or sexy, which all of which I think it is.
00:26:07.120
And on women, it's a totally different standard and we've accepted it.
00:26:17.280
I mean, that's what I, that's why I wanted to write the book.
00:26:27.080
And we like, you know, as if we're walking in a line, like with our hands out and they
00:26:34.120
But the suggestion gets handed to us and we go, okay.
00:26:40.420
But, but, and I don't mean that to be, um, a rhetorical.
00:26:44.900
I mean, I really wanted to get in there and go, no, there's got to be some core reason.
00:26:49.560
Like I was talking about earlier, there's got to be some irrational fear that anchors
00:26:54.620
that the desire to believe that the desire to believe that, you know, our faces are repulsive
00:27:06.900
And I think a lot of the book about how, how what's valued in girls is getting your pretty
00:27:13.300
card and that's your contract with society that you'll get it.
00:27:18.020
Or if not, you'll make sure you get it and you'll make sure you don't lose it as you get
00:27:24.720
Like you even, you even said, you want to make sure you, you continue to look younger
00:27:30.860
or I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what you just said, and make sure you continue
00:27:36.280
Now, attractive is, is what, if someone's attracted to you, maybe they're attracted to
00:27:43.300
to your energy or your style or something like that.
00:27:47.100
But we, we put so much emphasis on the face, make sure the face still looks attractive.
00:27:59.520
Is it telegraphing, um, you know, the, the plump lips or cheeks or, you know, so you still
00:28:14.160
So then when we look at like, all right, well, let's look at it evolutionarily.
00:28:18.640
Then when we're looking at a tribal level, then are the people in the tribe that can still
00:28:25.380
Are those then do, do those people then get more resources or the ones that can't breed?
00:28:32.580
If the tribe moves along to another area, you know, all of these things I think are, I think
00:28:38.040
some of them have been, I think they're vestigial thoughts that we still have in our brains.
00:28:44.920
And I do believe it's possible to just, you know, kind of, well, this is my fear.
00:28:50.340
And you'll write it out and then look at it and go, do I still think that's true?
00:28:53.880
Because is there anything about the way my face is going to change?
00:28:56.800
It's going to prohibit me from going down to the supermarket and buying whatever, um,
00:29:06.400
So I wish we'd just look at it and go, Hey, I don't, there's a lot of ideas here that
00:29:20.400
How do you think we got from A to B from where it was like, you could name on one hand, the
00:29:25.840
women who had had a facelift or plastic surgery to now where it's like expected, as you point
00:29:32.900
I think it's science, um, affordability and profits.
00:29:44.240
I mean, it used to be like when somebody got a facelift, like you knew it.
00:29:47.940
I mean, you know, it now it was like, it's all very uncanny Valley, but it was super specific
00:29:53.100
It was, um, you know, that film Brazil where they pulled a saran wrap back on her face.
00:29:58.960
Um, I don't know if you recall that film, but no, um, very, it's very extreme.
00:30:03.320
So we have the science and then we have affordability, you know, there's, uh, uh, I, I think facelifts
00:30:11.820
I believe, I don't know that for sure than they used to be, but also you have all these
00:30:15.600
other in-between procedures with fillers and Botox and all these things.
00:30:19.880
Um, and, you know, half a lift or just your eyes are just, you know, it's, it's, um, there
00:30:27.260
are affordable ways to get your face cut up, let's say, um, and then profitability.
00:30:38.080
Like a cosmetic company is going to make more money depending on the culture.
00:30:42.320
I will say though, based on my, my interviews with people that, that work in this industry,
00:30:47.020
the, um, if you're selling to America, it's going to be youth make.
00:30:53.620
So you look, you look younger, look younger, look younger.
00:30:55.680
So you'll name the same product that you're selling in France in the United States.
00:31:00.860
You'll, you'll name it like age defying in France.
00:31:07.700
I'm just making up phrases here, but you know what I mean?
00:31:10.340
And it's depending on like, what is that culture afraid of really?
00:31:16.600
And then there's a lot of, a lot of money in, in selling fixes to a bunch of frightened people.
00:31:28.840
You know, it's not, it, it's not just faces, right?
00:31:31.980
It's like now people are blowing up their butts to look like enormous.
00:31:36.660
You're no longer allowed to let your butt sag or have a flat, but you got to have it huge.
00:31:43.200
And then you got to wear a bunch of tight leggings to show off how big your butt is.
00:31:49.180
I like, you're not allowed to have saggy skin anywhere.
00:31:53.380
Megan, have you heard about the, the, the hand treatment?
00:31:56.240
Like, I think they shoot it up with fillers or something like, and it's called like the Instagram
00:32:01.700
engagement hand or something where you, so you just got married.
00:32:06.220
You're going to have a picture of your ring on your hand, but Oh my dear, your hand looks
00:32:12.020
It's veined and you know how hands look, right?
00:32:15.740
So you're going to do like, like kind of update your hand so that when you have that engagement
00:32:21.440
ring picture, your hand looks like a 14 year old.
00:32:29.460
I mean, of course I, I, my lay person assessment is it's all the fault of the Kardashians and
00:32:36.120
You know, it's like social media influencers, reality television, which is anything but,
00:32:42.720
and these crazy false images that are put out there for young girls to think that is
00:32:52.540
And I think if you also combine the, um, the digital recording, the, um, high definition
00:33:00.760
digital recording of films and TV too, where you see more, you're not recording on film.
00:33:06.120
Hardly ever now where you have like this, you know, sort of grainy richness to the, to
00:33:11.980
the film, you know, it's amazing when I was on camera, I desperately wish I noticed that
00:33:19.580
I'm sure you notice that sometimes, especially in your industry, it's like, I will not get
00:33:24.160
If I look my age, I have no choice if I want roles in Hollywood, but to make myself look
00:33:33.820
Well, to me as a director, I can't really use, um, faces that have been altered because
00:33:42.980
it's, I'm going to get uncanny Valley, um, from my audience.
00:33:48.620
And what I mean is like the audience is going to be, I want to draw them in emotionally as,
00:33:58.140
And if I'm doing anything that rings untrue in the film, either through my dialogue or,
00:34:04.800
or the locations or, you know, or behavior from the characters, um, they're gonna, they'll
00:34:11.920
maybe continue watching it, but then they'll become arm's length to the project.
00:34:16.380
So, and one of those things is going to make them arm's length is if the, if there's something
00:34:23.900
wrong with somebody's face, because somewhere in the core of them as a human, they're going
00:34:32.760
And also there's a certain type of person that changes their face.
00:34:38.140
And I think there's a level of fear and insecurity that is going to come across on camera.
00:34:46.120
It's going to be hard to, um, shove down on camera.
00:34:53.220
And that is, so I don't really want to capture that.
00:34:56.500
It's a, it's a, um, sadly you are in a class of one or two.
00:35:01.280
Like, I don't think, I don't know your industry that well, but it just seems like these Hollywood
00:35:05.060
directors or the casting agents, they, they have, as you point out in your book, this
00:35:09.400
standard of beauty and all the women are clamoring to meet it in Hollywood and elsewhere.
00:35:15.420
Cause it's not just the Hollywood casting folks who set this standard.
00:35:22.840
And I think in your, in your industry in particular, it's very hard for women.
00:35:34.300
So it's very hard for women in our, in our age range.
00:35:37.120
Cause when you're, let's say under 40, you're still holding it together pretty well.
00:35:43.080
Generally, like you're whatever you're, I guess there's a judgment in just the way I
00:35:46.880
put it, but you're, you're not really aging on your face that much.
00:35:50.180
And if you're over, let's say 60 or 65, if you're Judy Dench, if you're a Helen Mirren,
00:35:56.040
you're, your older face can be celebrated in and cast in certain roles, the queen, right?
00:36:02.040
She has to have some wrinkles, but the women between 40 and 60, 40 and 65 are in this weird
00:36:13.860
And I, I think you see a lot less sadly of those women, stars you fell in love with in
00:36:18.820
their twenties, uh, once they hit, I don't know, around our age.
00:36:24.240
I feel like there's a lot of women at this age, not, not in the entertainment business,
00:36:29.060
but just in life that sort of fold into, they sort of stopped becoming, they stopped developing
00:36:35.800
It seems to me, and they start folding into kind of what might be expected of them, what
00:36:41.960
they imagine is expected of them, like certain types of older women that they're supposed
00:36:47.400
to become, like the easily indignant, the, um, or the, the caring, you know, pre-grandmother.
00:36:55.060
There's, there's certain sort of tropes, if you will.
00:36:59.520
And, and I think when writers are looking around at older women, like that's a lot of what they're
00:37:05.560
And so they're writing, I mean, there's a lot of reasons that I don't act anymore.
00:37:12.080
And one of them is that like, I like playing me so much more than I like playing any of
00:37:20.900
Oh, is it also because Hollywood wasn't catering to the parts you, you would have played that
00:37:26.340
Nah, because it started for me when I was younger.
00:37:28.180
I guess what I'm saying is when we look at women who are around that age in life, what
00:37:36.460
Like, what are, what are some examples of what are they doing and what kind of personalities
00:37:42.200
I'm just saying a lot of times writers are looking around and reflecting what's going
00:37:47.960
And then maybe women see that in films and then reflect that in real life.
00:37:52.380
And then maybe it's a chicken than the egg kind of situation.
00:37:56.120
I mean, I am going to do a film adaptation of the book Face and there sure will be a lot
00:38:03.340
Let me just back up and ask you about something you said earlier when you're saying, I can't
00:38:06.540
put somebody on the screen who looks wrong, right?
00:38:09.640
And for the women who are out there who have had surgery on their face or Botox, I mean,
00:38:15.480
I've had Botox, but filler, you know, up to the eyeballs and so on.
00:38:22.540
It's no different than wearing makeup or doing your hair.
00:38:25.020
You know, you, you don't like, you're not satisfied with the way you look when you wake
00:38:29.160
up in the morning and therefore you make an effort to look what you would consider, quote,
00:38:33.300
And is it really so much a far afield of wearing makeup and getting your hair done and wearing
00:38:38.900
a nice outfit to then have a nip or a tuck or a filler or Botox or what have you?
00:38:45.500
And I, I, I, you know, explore that, uh, in a couple of the stories, that position.
00:38:52.080
So let's say the root fear is as I get older, no, people aren't going to want to work with
00:39:07.620
You still, so now you've got, for me, if I were to do anything to my face and let's
00:39:13.880
say that was my fear and I, and I did something to my face, then I, instead of having one problem
00:39:21.160
Now I've changed my face, which for me personally, isn't something I want to do.
00:39:28.320
So if, what if somebody attended to that fear and after attending to that fear, they still
00:39:34.980
But I feel like every time I'm challenged with, you know, like I get a button push, I
00:39:40.800
have an opportunity to become a bulletproof and I am not going to push off any of those
00:39:48.700
opportunities because like, I don't have that much time.
00:39:52.960
I mean, I want, I want, I want the time I have here to be, um, more free.
00:40:02.380
Have you, do you feel like you, you've gotten to the bulletproof place?
00:40:07.340
Cause I, what I remember is you talking about the pain of entering your name, Justine Bateman
00:40:14.900
in the Google search and seeing the auto fill come up with something like Justine Bateman
00:40:20.340
looks old or it was something not nice and just how painful that was for you.
00:40:27.440
So, and you are, you won't, you're not changing your face.
00:40:31.140
You're not doing the things you're aging like a normal person.
00:40:36.440
It's somehow it's newsworthy, but you're aging like a normal person.
00:40:43.540
Just soaking in all of that negativity, like looking at all the criticism and then just
00:40:51.180
Like, how did you get from A to B from the pain of that moment to now?
00:40:54.080
It wasn't a pain, which was the curious thing to me.
00:41:00.260
Basically it was, I didn't know what they were talking about.
00:41:04.060
I mean, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I just had never been.
00:41:09.480
No, I was just like, I'd never even really thought about, you know, I was just like accepted
00:41:13.940
as like, quote, attractive to, to the, to this society standards, whatever.
00:41:27.340
And then as I go in the book, I, I had a choice to make, I could either make them wrong and
00:41:40.340
And because, and this was a while ago, because I was still, I was dealing with like the fame
00:41:48.260
going, there was something about making them right and me wrong that kept just a little
00:41:59.980
It's almost like being like the fat kid in the third grade.
00:42:02.320
It's like, you let them call you fatty and you know, they're like, Hey, we're just kidding.
00:42:09.140
And you get to be with them and hang with that gang.
00:42:13.640
If you let them call you fatty, if you reject that idea, you're like, I don't want to play
00:42:19.720
Well then you're not part of the gang and you're going to be eating lunch by yourself.
00:42:26.660
And, and that was a big mistake for me because it, it brought in that, those criticisms, it
00:42:36.660
And it took me a while to get that off of myself.
00:42:40.900
But that, again, that was a while ago and that was something in the, in the last book.
00:42:45.640
You went into life, but you say looking forward to aging, you thought there was something kind
00:42:52.300
of cool, exotic, sexy about the women you saw who were older.
00:42:59.760
So it was basically society that started to take that away from you in that moment where
00:43:20.220
You empowered them by putting them in your own head.
00:43:22.140
And I received it because it, it, it, it, um, it suited something I was looking for at
00:43:32.560
that time that had nothing to do with my faith.
00:43:34.260
Um, there's actually an ode to them in, um, one of the stories.
00:43:47.640
There's a story about a very famous actress, way more famous than I ever was.
00:43:53.900
Let's call, let's call it like a, um, a, uh, Julia Roberts level actress.
00:44:01.320
I'm not saying this about Julia Roberts at all, but let's say that level of fame.
00:44:06.720
And it's not, it's a chapter eight and her name's Donna.
00:44:11.500
This is the 48 year old who went to her reunion.
00:44:15.120
She goes to her high school reunion and all these people are saying things about her.
00:44:18.300
There's a batch of women that say a bunch of things about her.
00:44:20.820
And then there's a batch of men that say a bunch of things about her.
00:44:30.640
Um, so if people want to read some of the stuff that is about me, they can read that
00:44:42.540
Um, yeah, that's my ode to all those, all those little assholes.
00:44:54.220
I was just going to say, can we just spend a minute on why it's different for men?
00:44:59.720
You know, I mean, you, you have a very famous brother who I grew up watching on Little House
00:45:06.120
on the Prairie, but now he stars in Ozark and all sorts of different things.
00:45:26.520
So he, he, he, men are allowed to age in Hollywood and in life.
00:45:31.440
They, they are like I was saying about my husband, Doug.
00:45:35.600
So even if he weren't quote allowed to, I just can't see him ever doing anything, but
00:45:39.500
women are raised to be more vain, I think, right, right from birth.
00:45:43.680
So, so how do we wind up in the place where, and I don't presume to know anything about
00:45:48.260
your brother's approach to surgery, just saying that the difference is stark.
00:45:54.900
And so how are we at that point where I realize some men are vain.
00:45:59.300
Some men do feel the need to get a nip or a tuck, even in, in my business, even in media,
00:46:03.180
I, I, I definitely know some men who've had hair plugs put in or have had that major jowl
00:46:08.300
thing that happens underneath the male chin fixed, um, and Botox for sure.
00:46:15.660
I mean, people can see that with their own eyes when they watch the television screen,
00:46:18.960
but I just, I really don't, other than what you say in your book about women needing the
00:46:24.420
pretty card and, and society deeming pretty to look young.
00:46:30.240
Why, how, how can we be more like them in this way?
00:46:33.960
There's a lot of things that guys do that I, uh, want to be more and more and more like,
00:46:41.600
because I, I think there's a lot of things that, okay.
00:46:45.140
Like, um, uh, like someone says, uh, uh, can you do this job?
00:46:53.620
Whereas you got the women going, well, I, I know some of Excel.
00:47:08.280
They said, they're like, I'll just figure it out.
00:47:16.480
Look, I'm, I'm speaking very generally, you know, there's lots of men that are more neurotic
00:47:22.480
But, um, I find that men more so than women don't sweat the small shit.
00:47:29.240
They just kind of like, well, is there some way to solve this?
00:47:33.620
You know, um, and I, I'm speaking, you know, probably too generally, but anyway, yeah.
00:47:39.580
And one of the things is like not being concerned about their faces.
00:47:42.880
Now, I think, I think, again, I think a lot of this is tied to, um, is tied to evolution
00:47:54.140
is tied to procreation is tied to, let's say there's a parent who, uh, looks at his, um,
00:48:03.620
daughter, um, I'll just keep it to women since we're saying guys don't necessarily do, but,
00:48:09.860
uh, you know, say a mother looks at her daughter and her daughter's not really, um, you know,
00:48:14.840
brushing her hair and she's, you know, her face is kind of, uh, she's not being put in any makeup
00:48:20.900
And, you know, she just kind of, I don't know, maybe she's got some dirt on her face or she
00:48:26.980
marked her face with a pen by accident when she was drawing or something like this.
00:48:31.340
And the mother might say, you know, Ellen, you know, get yourself put together.
00:48:37.100
You look a wreck, you know, now, why is this being said?
00:48:42.460
Is it, oh my God, is it, is there some vestigial fear, like just in the human that, that is concerned
00:48:51.220
that the daughter won't find a mate and then what will become of her?
00:48:57.840
And I'm not saying we think of these things consciously, but even the whole idea of when
00:49:02.840
you see somebody's little girl, uh, you know, you, you haven't seen them for a while and
00:49:11.320
She's two years old or she's a year old or whatever.
00:49:17.520
Now, if you were to not say that, you'd create a little elephant in the room.
00:49:28.780
Right now, immediately somebody, the parents get, there's something is going to like, you've,
00:49:38.100
We went to, um, my daughter's all girls school, which is amazing.
00:49:46.260
And they produce these super smart, strong, young women who I admire a lot.
00:49:54.020
And when we went to the school, um, we went to, I don't know, it was one of those parent,
00:49:59.200
parent nights where you go and they like put on a panel of existing parents at the school
00:50:05.200
And there was this one guy who got up there and he's talking about his daughter and she's
00:50:13.880
And the guy stands up and literally like the first thing he said about his daughter when
00:50:18.900
he was describing her to us, she wasn't there was, you know, my daughter's a whatever greater
00:50:30.960
And I remember thinking like, oh my God, it's so jarring.
00:50:33.500
In no world would any dad stand up talking about his son and say, my son is so good looking.
00:50:51.120
My son has a, you know, here's his GPA and he has these accomplishments and, you know,
00:51:00.540
But, you know, because if you say something like that, or if you say that you're trying
00:51:04.040
to set somebody else up on a date, you know, some guy and you say, oh, you got to meet my
00:51:11.740
And then he's immediately like, why, why, why is she?
00:51:22.000
I don't know what the fix is there or anything, but it's an interesting thing.
00:51:25.520
More of us to get unattractive, lean into our unattractiveness.
00:51:29.540
I mean, really, it's like, I, I watch you refusing to do anything to your face and letting
00:51:45.160
I can't, I can't get myself out of it, Justine.
00:51:49.560
Up next, we're going to talk about what the messaging should be to children when it comes
00:51:55.100
How many times have you heard about a young girl?
00:52:04.480
More importantly, she's got some thoughts and it's interesting what she said to her own
00:52:10.760
But before we get to that, we're going to bring you a feature called Asked and Answered.
00:52:15.280
And that's where Steve Krakauer comes in, our EP, with a question from one of you all,
00:52:23.520
Yes, this comes to us from questions at devilmakehairmedia.com and from Max Wilson,
00:52:37.200
Make no mistake, the legacy media is in real trouble because how are they ever going to
00:52:40.740
get their workers to return to work to their massive studios?
00:52:45.960
I mean, like, that's what's going to have to happen.
00:52:47.980
Here in New York, some of the bankers are doing that.
00:52:49.980
Like, hey, you want to come back and earn your New York money?
00:52:54.640
You cannot work remotely from Oklahoma, where prices are one-tenth what they are in Manhattan
00:53:02.600
And listen, there are certain bodies that kind of have to be in studio, and we've seen that.
00:53:07.580
So they're going to have to go back and probably already are.
00:53:11.120
And I think there's nothing wrong with letting those people continue to work remotely.
00:53:14.280
But I don't see the legacy media going out of business because of COVID.
00:53:18.120
If anything, they're going to go out of business because of cord cutting and how, you know,
00:53:22.300
media has just changed in general to a much younger, more dynamic way of consumption.
00:53:28.180
You can watch your favorite show on your way to work while you're driving your car.
00:53:31.820
You don't need to sit around waiting until nine o'clock to watch your favorite anchor.
00:53:38.640
But I do think in general, like especially here in New York, which is the hub of media,
00:53:42.940
there's so much fright over COVID that it's going to take a while before they get people
00:53:48.340
You know, they've been led to believe that they can get it from touching desks, which
00:53:52.780
And so until we sort of collectively lower the moral panic that is still lingering over
00:53:58.260
this city like a hangover, it's going to be tough for these employers.
00:54:03.140
I don't think it's good for so many people to be in their houses by themselves working
00:54:08.800
You got to interact with other human beings as much as we dislike them.
00:54:14.040
Every once in a while, you need to see other humans.
00:54:18.200
I think that'll happen just as soon as New York gets on its way to recovery.
00:54:21.120
As for the bias in mainstream media, that's their problem.
00:54:46.820
When I was in my 20s, my goal was to, you know, I thought, oh man, when I'm,
00:54:53.480
And I'll never get there if I do anything to my face.
00:55:00.860
And also, like, I just feel like it's one of the most defiant things I can do.
00:55:12.540
Not just by letting my face, you know, grow into whatever it's going to become, but also
00:55:18.640
at the same time, having an attitude that is, hey, I'm, now I don't want to say pretty
00:55:26.260
or beautiful or anything like that because of what we just said.
00:55:28.820
But I want to say, like, I am somebody that people are drawn to.
00:55:37.280
Because of my face, because I have a pretty face.
00:55:40.800
What if attractive just means people are drawn to you because you're magnetic or you're confident.
00:55:48.460
I don't mean like, you know, like they want to use you.
00:55:50.800
I mean, like, they, whatever you've got going on, they wish they had that going on.
00:56:05.860
The reason I'm thinking about Bill O'Reilly is because in the media industry, for a long
00:56:12.240
time, he was the biggest star, certainly one of them, and definitely the biggest star in
00:56:15.500
all of cable and had the number one show in all of cable for like almost 20 years.
00:56:19.220
Now, Bill is not a particularly attractive man.
00:56:23.720
And I think Bill would be the first to say this about himself.
00:56:27.300
He used to be pretty self-deprecating about his himself and his looks.
00:56:33.180
He became a huge star because he was a great television presenter.
00:56:36.320
He knew how to spin a really interesting story, how to condense information in a very compelling
00:56:44.120
There were all sorts of reasons why he was such a success.
00:56:46.800
And he didn't have to be attractive and he didn't really care.
00:56:52.180
And I, I admired that, you know, I, I can see, I can see other people doing it and we
00:57:07.320
Knowing now I'm going to assume a lot of things about Bill.
00:57:10.760
I don't know, Bill, but this is what you mean, Bill is, you know, quote unquote, Bill
00:57:20.180
Knowing that he couldn't use his looks, he developed other ways to attract viewers.
00:57:31.960
Now let's, let's, what if we went to all the ladies and we said, you're going to do all
00:57:46.380
So you will have to develop other ways to attract viewers.
00:57:52.940
Do you think if that was the case or if they even thought that was the case, if they operated
00:57:58.380
like that, that we would have, um, we would be attracted to, uh, some of these broadcasts,
00:58:09.380
do you think the women would develop more complex and interesting ways to get viewers?
00:58:22.860
And I think to your points, it, it applies beyond broadcasting too, that what if we were
00:58:29.140
more rich, more layered, more interesting beings?
00:58:34.820
I always used to joke, Justine, um, that, that, um, skirts and high heels were men's way
00:58:42.040
Just, it was a joke, but kind of a grain of truth.
00:58:45.820
And what if this whole narrative is, is a way of, it's not just men, but like men and
00:58:55.140
What if we, what if we could be more of a kaleidoscope?
00:58:58.700
What if we could be more layered if we weren't so obsessed with the, with the face, this one
00:59:07.280
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't, I don't want to lay all that on men because I think women
00:59:11.500
are, I think, I think it's like split between women and men as to who, who's like, you know,
00:59:17.960
trying to convince Susie that, you know, she should get her face changed or that there's
00:59:23.500
I think for the men, it has a lot to do with how they are going to be perceived by other
00:59:30.300
So if a man has a frumpy wife, then do his friends then think less of him?
00:59:37.980
Um, if, uh, but if he has a wife that looks like, has a aspirational look to her or whatever,
00:59:57.960
So it, it elevates who he is, what kind of person he is.
01:00:08.380
I think we haven't crossed over to where, you know, you see a man who's like too Botoxed
01:00:14.660
Like, I'm sorry, you don't have to comment on this, but like Chris Cuomo putting out the
01:00:18.080
videos of him lifting the weights and trying to look super tough and muscly.
01:00:21.160
That stuff I think is still generally unattractive in society.
01:00:26.080
And yeah, that's so they've been saved from a place on a, on a news show either.
01:00:35.800
I will say this in my experience, very attractive women and very attractive men are far less.
01:00:44.620
They are far less interesting personalities, generally speaking, in my experience than
01:00:51.480
And I do think that's because people who are not instead focused on becoming interesting
01:00:59.900
Were you okay now you, but you and I, let me ask you about this because I think you and
01:01:04.280
I have had, had a different experience because you, you talk about in your book, how you grew
01:01:08.880
I did not grow up pretty, which was a blessing for the very reasons you're talking about.
01:01:17.540
I really pretty much looked like a boy for the first 12 years of my life.
01:01:20.360
And then I just looked like a chunky acne ridden teenager with a weird space between my
01:01:26.100
That's my experience wasn't until I got to like high school that I was like, maybe if
01:01:31.720
I made an effort, I could get the social shit of being attractive like that would, I think
01:01:40.220
But by the way, not for nothing, but I was voted the most popular girl in my eighth grade
01:01:45.740
class when I was still unattractive, I was still unattractive and I have the pictures to prove
01:01:51.180
So I had the experience of like work, the other skills, like, you know, how the blind
01:02:04.560
But I wasn't, I didn't know if it was like the schools I was going to or the cities I
01:02:14.660
I mean, I guess I would just, you know, I guess it was one of those things where, well,
01:02:21.260
like I said earlier, like, you know, you meet like your parents' friends and they go,
01:02:30.000
I didn't, I didn't, um, my friends didn't emphasize it.
01:02:37.680
I, what, I didn't go to schools where, um, where there were sort of, I mean, if there
01:02:43.380
were, if there were mean girls, it was like, I don't know, everybody was just sort of kind
01:02:48.020
of mean to each other in that school way where you just like, like you said, you know, the
01:02:54.840
I guess I just didn't go to schools where there was like an emphasis on it.
01:03:01.960
See, it wasn't until, it wasn't until I got on a show that there was, so at 16, so I was
01:03:09.340
developing myself as a person, like all up until, I still did at 16, but it wasn't until
01:03:17.140
at 16 that it started being, it started getting, there started being a focus on, on my face.
01:03:25.600
Like, you know, Oh, Justine Bateman's gorgeous or she's so beautiful or whatever.
01:03:32.420
I mean, I, I was just like, it didn't really, it was just like a, it seemed like this matter
01:03:44.200
One of the reasons I, we talked on NBC when I was there and it was about your first book
01:03:49.040
and you were honest about what it's like when that starts to fade.
01:03:52.740
And I do think you would say now the fading was a blessing.
01:03:59.160
And you realized maybe you couldn't get the reservations you used to be able to get, but
01:04:07.340
I'll tell you what's a blessing is my ability to, um, process the experience.
01:04:16.720
I mean, I say that in the book, like I say, like I have a privileged life.
01:04:21.480
The privilege I'm referring to is that process, being able to having those tools.
01:04:31.040
And that's one of the reasons I wrote that book is like through this explanation.
01:04:37.660
I mean, you know, that book fame was for a lot of reasons.
01:04:41.200
One of them was, you know, just sharing how I process the things.
01:04:46.160
And because I've had so much success with that particular method, I just wanted to like,
01:04:51.740
Hey, if this will help anyone else, you know, use it.
01:05:05.600
So with her, is your messaging kind of along the lines of what we've been talking about?
01:05:10.200
I think about it with my daughter, because I do think she's pretty.
01:05:17.560
So I try to keep it sort of equal and I try to not make it number one with my kid, you
01:05:21.760
know, my daughter, especially, but you know, sometimes just overwhelmed by the beauty of
01:05:26.480
And even if the kid's not that cute, you see it, right?
01:05:31.940
So how did you balance trying to raise a daughter who wasn't too focused on this with what I assume
01:05:38.420
is your natural gravitation toward what you thought was a beautiful face?
01:05:46.780
First of all, when I was a kid, when you were a kid, we had only the people in our world to compare
01:05:55.440
to, to compare to, or to be, to be compared to, right?
01:06:01.580
And I think it's a little wider as you get older, right?
01:06:07.540
And then as you get older and you go out into the workforce and everything, then it's like
01:06:10.840
the people in your city or the people in your industry.
01:06:16.400
And if you're in the, you know, entertainment business, then you got to, you know, you're
01:06:23.260
But now a 13 year old who in the past would just be comparing herself to other people at
01:06:30.120
her junior high school or her middle school is now on Instagram comparing herself with,
01:06:36.860
and, you know, back then, okay, we had the fashion magazines, of course, but they were
01:06:41.580
They were, you know, there were, these were people who, you know, these women that were,
01:06:48.460
And they were in these photos that were so removed from our situations, even getting pictures
01:06:57.600
taken in front of the Taj Mahal or some, you know, nightclub in Berlin, or, I mean,
01:07:09.780
They weren't quote Instagram, like self, self-proclaimed Instagram models.
01:07:17.300
Like there was a, there was a, you know, there were a lot of, a lot of competition they
01:07:30.560
So now you're comparing yourself to everybody on Instagram.
01:07:33.760
And also with the internet, you're comparing yourself to all the pretty women that have ever
01:07:40.620
Like, you know, um, Ted Serrano's, uh, at, um, uh, Netflix, uh, he had, um, I think all
01:07:52.800
of programming at Netflix or I'm not sure it's position right now, but, um, he had a great
01:07:57.600
quote once he said, you know, it used to be that when you released a film, you were going
01:08:01.640
to compete just against the other films that were, that were out at the same time is now
01:08:07.720
you're competing with all films that have all the films that have ever been made.
01:08:15.460
You put a film out, it's like, well, people can choose from any, all the films that were
01:08:21.760
And in the same way, that's, that's what we're doing with the look.
01:08:25.300
So the first thing is I wanted her to be, I wanted, when she first started looking at
01:08:31.900
like Instagram and stuff like that, wanted to make it very clear to her.
01:08:35.760
Like at first she was like, how do all these women, um, how are they, how do they afford
01:08:41.700
They must be really rich that they can go to all these places and take all these pictures
01:08:50.740
Let me tell you a story about how these women are affording to go there.
01:08:58.380
Tell her about like, you know, just outside this shot, you know, is this kind of, you
01:09:03.700
know, raggedy backyard that this woman has, you know, she's not really right.
01:09:09.680
So show, you know, making, you know, pop that bubble, you know, of, of all of that stuff.
01:09:15.320
And then just, and then the selfie after selfie, after selfie, after selfie, after
01:09:21.040
selfie, she, you know, she has said to me, like, I, I would say like, you know, uh, oh
01:09:29.440
my God, you know, why don't they just stop or whatever.
01:09:32.260
And then she'd go, she'd go, mommy, they're just insecure.
01:09:39.900
And I was like, and like, she was saying to me, like, you're being unkind because these
01:09:51.720
So, so she, I don't know, she, she, she gets, and also like, I, I, I try to be very, um,
01:10:01.920
with both my kids, I try to be, um, I try to make a big, um, I try to focus on, make a
01:10:10.660
big deal about things that they've accomplished.
01:10:13.840
Things look, you, you come in, you're put in a bag, you're born, you're put in a bag.
01:10:26.840
You might be a very short, pale skinned bag that's female.
01:10:31.960
I mean, you don't have any say you're, I mean, this is how it seems to me personally.
01:10:40.980
So, so is any of that an accomplishment that you have, you know, looks that are deemed
01:10:51.320
No, but, but the things that you set out to do that then you make happen, like that's
01:10:58.100
And that I feel like focusing on by people being rewarded for those things, I feel like
01:11:04.020
really build their sense of who they are as a person, what they can, um, make happen
01:11:12.440
And I think it, it's a really good way to build their, their sense of foundation of a person.
01:11:25.900
I know that's, it's a great line from, um, as good as it gets, you're not like anybody.
01:11:31.400
That's how I feel about you in a, in a great way.
01:11:37.060
And I, and I always appreciate your, um, you know, I know this is the second time we've,
01:11:41.820
we've done an interview and, and I just want to tell you, I, I, I really appreciate how,
01:11:46.720
um, prepared you are, how engaging you are to talk to how prepared you are with material.
01:11:53.520
And, um, that's not as common as you would think it should be from people who do this for
01:12:09.060
And let me, I mean, I prepare for everybody because I feel out of respect.
01:12:12.640
I, I want to, but some people are, you know, easier to do it with than others because their
01:12:18.580
stuff is really interesting or just speaks to me for whatever reason.
01:12:27.900
And then don't forget to go see Justine's new movie, Violet, Violet.
01:12:35.440
Coming up on our next episode, Dave Ramsey's here.
01:12:42.840
He's like one of the most popular personalities in America.
01:12:45.840
He's got some thoughts on dough, finances, the national debt, and how to dig yourself out
01:13:01.240
The Megan Kelly show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.