The Megyn Kelly Show - Justine Bateman on Parenting in the Age of Instagram, Beauty Standards for Men and Women, and Dealing with Critics ｜ Ep. 81

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans. 1.00

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.620 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.840 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.280 That dress?

00:00:21.060 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.760 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.720 Stop wondering.

00:00:26.980 Start winning.

00:00:27.920 Winners.

00:00:28.500 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.620 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.920 Hey, everyone.

00:00:42.840 I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.220 Today on the program, Justine Bateman.

00:00:48.720 She was a superstar back in the 80s and 90s 0.87

00:00:52.780 thanks to her role as Mallory,

00:00:55.600 the daughter on the hit show Family Ties,

00:00:58.340 working with Michael J. Fox and a cast of All Stars.

00:01:02.360 And she now has just written, directed, and produced a film that's about to come out called

00:01:08.580 Violet, starring Olivia Munn and Justin Theroux.

00:01:12.160 But the real reason I want to talk to Justine Bateman is because she has written two books.

00:01:18.780 The first one, and I talked to her about this on my NBC show, was about fame.

00:01:23.440 And in particular, losing fame and just how illusory it is and what nonsense it is, but the pain and losing it and what that taught her, right?

00:01:33.540 It's like post being a huge star and what that's been like.

00:01:36.580 But the second book, which is called Face, One Square Foot of Skin, is about something else entirely.

00:01:44.060 And it's really aging.

00:01:46.040 And how much pressure there is not to do it, right?

00:01:49.260 Like the last thing you're supposed to do is age as a woman anywhere, and certainly in Hollywood. 0.87

00:01:55.180 And now it's creeping over to men to a lesser extent.

00:01:58.020 Sure, sure, to a lesser extent, but certainly those who are on camera.

00:02:01.380 And so we're going to talk about what she's learned because Justine has been bullied.

00:02:04.560 She is the victim of online bullying.

00:02:08.760 Why?

00:02:09.280 Because she chose to age naturally, gracefully.

00:02:12.440 She doesn't go for the needles.

00:02:14.220 She doesn't get the filler, Botox, plastic surgery. 1.00

00:02:17.560 And as a result, she gets trolled online mercilessly. 0.52

00:02:21.480 It's BS.

00:02:23.020 And she's been really thoughtful about it.

00:02:24.500 And she's here to talk to us about all of it.

00:02:27.060 So don't miss that.

00:02:28.200 She's coming up in one second. 0.99

00:02:29.860 Stand by first for this.

00:02:34.560 Justine, hi.

00:02:39.680 Hey, hi.

00:02:40.740 Good to talk to you again.

00:02:42.180 You too.

00:02:42.660 How are you?

00:02:43.700 I'm good, thanks.

00:02:44.860 And you?

00:02:45.720 I'm great.

00:02:46.400 I'm excited for your new movie.

00:02:49.080 I mean, you're like coming out swinging.

00:02:52.520 So just so the audience understands, it's coming out in March.

00:02:56.680 It's called Violet.

00:02:58.180 And you've got a cast of all stars, Olivia Munn, Justin Theroux.

00:03:01.740 You wrote it, you directed it, and you produced it?

00:03:05.060 Yeah.

00:03:05.540 Yeah.

00:03:05.920 I produced it with a couple of other people.

00:03:08.700 And yeah, I wrote, directed it.

00:03:10.560 And it was supposed, we finished this last year.

00:03:13.480 So we finished this in like October of 2019.

00:03:17.240 It was supposed to premiere at South by Southwest Film Festival 2020.

00:03:21.280 But that was one of the first events to get canceled because of the shutdown.

00:03:27.380 And so here we are at South by Southwest 2021 for Mirriott.

00:03:33.100 So I looked it up online just to see what it was about.

00:03:35.760 And I thought this is classic Justine Bateman.

00:03:37.740 I feel like this messaging is right up your alley.

00:03:41.900 But can you just tell us what it's about so people understand?

00:03:45.460 Sure.

00:03:46.160 It's about the thoughts we have in our heads or in the film, I call it the voice that treats us like crap that tells us, you know, the example I use is, it just makes us make fear-based decisions.

00:03:58.220 And the example I use is, it'll say like, don't wear that shirt to the party or no one's going to talk to you.

00:04:05.300 And consciously or unconsciously, we think it's true.

00:04:09.000 And so we'll change our shirt.

00:04:10.180 And I believe the more times we make decisions like that based in fear, the further and further away we get from being our true selves.

00:04:18.740 So this is about someone who realizes that that voice has been lying to her her whole life.

00:04:23.720 And it's kind of a map as to how to get from a life where you're making fear-based decisions and not being yourself to a life where you're making instinct-based decisions and you are being yourself.

00:04:34.520 And then, you know, it's just a love story.

00:04:36.840 And, you know, we go into her work life, her family life, the whole thing.

00:04:40.760 And, yeah, Justin Theroux is the voice.

00:04:44.800 Oh, I see.

00:04:45.520 So he's the voice in her head.

00:04:47.700 I like this because in today's day and age, it's all about authenticity.

00:04:51.660 And I don't think most people really understand what that means.

00:04:54.320 I think they're just trying to try their best to seem authentic rather than just let it fly.

00:05:00.880 Let your freak flag fly.

00:05:02.760 And I think that what you find when you are true to yourself is most of the time it works out and it winds up settling as it should.

00:05:12.320 The people who are attracted to you as friends, as lovers, whatever it is, they're there because they should be, because you really are being yourself.

00:05:20.660 But sometimes it's stepping on the rake.

00:05:23.900 Sometimes your authentic self gets you, you know, some sort of injury that you didn't foresee.

00:05:29.560 So how do you balance that, right?

00:05:32.560 That, like, it's not without peril.

00:05:35.380 No.

00:05:35.720 And, you know, I think that's one of the reasons that most people make fear-based decisions and are not being themselves.

00:05:42.160 The ones who aren't being themselves, I believe, it has a lot to do with people pleasing and not wanting to feel outside of the tribe, if you will.

00:05:54.500 And I think a lot of that goes back to our evolutionary roots.

00:06:00.160 You know, your system wants to keep you alive.

00:06:04.120 And part of staying alive is, again, we're getting really down to, like, you know, the core function of our brain, you know, staying alive, a lot of that has to do with making sure that you can be provided for,

00:06:22.040 making sure that you have access to, you know, food and shelter and companionship is good for our, you know, kind of emotional survival.

00:06:35.680 But a lot of that, I think, is based in just making sure you have enough to, you know, when the tribe brings in the killed gazelle or something,

00:06:44.180 want to make sure that you have a piece of that.

00:06:46.140 And if you're outside of that, and I know I'm getting really, I'm speaking really, I'm not an anthropologist, but from what I know of anthropology, it just rings true to me.

00:06:59.080 Because if you, if you engage that thought that says, like, don't wear that shirt to the party and I want to talk to you.

00:07:04.700 And if you, if you engage it and say, well, why?

00:07:07.660 Well, then what will happen?

00:07:08.700 And you follow the chain of, of thoughts that follow, like, well, then I won't have any friends.

00:07:16.460 Well, then what will happen?

00:07:17.300 Well, then if I ever need someone, I'm in trouble, I won't have anyone to call.

00:07:21.440 And then what will happen?

00:07:22.300 Well, then maybe I will lose my job and then what will happen?

00:07:25.300 And then you follow that chain down and it winds up that you are, you know, desolate and in the streets and then you die.

00:07:31.160 So I do believe that when we, when we make the decision to change our shirt, because we're afraid no one's going to talk to us, we're actually reacting to the fear of being desolate in the streets and dying.

00:07:42.960 Do you know what I mean?

00:07:43.840 Because it's an irrational fear that is linked to this ear, this core concern that our system has of, of actually perishing.

00:07:54.300 So I think it's something to look at because I have found that once you expose those sort of thoughts, those irrational kinds of fears, then just the mere exposure starts to dissolve that fear.

00:08:10.840 It starts to erode that fear, just like anything in nature, you know, you put it out in the elements and it'll start to erode.

00:08:16.020 I always try to not edit those fears before I express them, you know, actually to a person or write it down or something so that it can get that kind of exposure.

00:08:26.360 And, and I've found that to, you know, um, uh, I've had a lot of success with, uh, that kind of process, you know, to having, because I don't want to change people around me.

00:08:40.480 I don't want to change people around me.

00:08:41.600 I don't have time for that.

00:08:42.640 I'm here for like a second in a time, in the timeline of life.

00:08:46.460 But I want to change how I react to what I want to remove my buttons.

00:08:50.000 I don't want to remove the button pushers or change how they're pushing buttons.

00:08:53.040 I just want to remove my buttons so I can be around all of that and, and have it, and have it not affect me at all.

00:08:59.340 And that's one, that's a, that's a method I use to do that.

00:09:03.060 Yeah.

00:09:03.200 And be well, that's, that's one of my things actually that I, I hate about like all the cancel culture is there's always going to be mean people.

00:09:09.660 You know, we're not, we're not going to get rid of all the people who do something bad or say something bad or feel something bad.

00:09:16.720 But it doesn't work that way.

00:09:18.960 You have to work on yourself.

00:09:20.400 You have to work on shoring up yourself.

00:09:22.060 And as you say, removing your buttons, which is possible.

00:09:26.580 It doesn't mean you, you don't fight injustice or, you know, stand up for what you think is right.

00:09:31.200 But it all starts with what's inside of you.

00:09:34.540 Yeah.

00:09:34.780 I mean, more like somebody says something that just really, uh, like affects you.

00:09:40.080 Like you're going along, you're having a happy day.

00:09:41.940 And then somebody makes a comment about your hair and it just, it tweaks you, you know, and the rest of your day, you're consumed with the thought of this.

00:09:50.380 And it makes me feel, it makes you feel bad about yourself and all this.

00:09:53.580 And when something like that happens to me, then I have to go write about it and go like, okay, what, what, what button did that push me?

00:10:00.480 Why did that affect me?

00:10:01.960 That, that person should have been able to say that.

00:10:04.140 And I can just, and it cannot bother me at all.

00:10:06.340 But why some, there's something in me that, you know, really pricked some sort of sore or flew in through some sort of open window or door in me.

00:10:17.760 You know, if I use a metaphor of me being a house.

00:10:20.740 Um, so that's what I want to figure out.

00:10:23.660 You know, that's what I want to figure out.

00:10:25.740 Because when I, that piece, like physical critiques, I actually don't relate to that because I'll tell you, I grew up in a house where I was criticized all the time, but not in a mean way.

00:10:35.820 You know, we, we just made fun of each other.

00:10:37.560 We were Irish and it was, you know, half Italian, half Irish.

00:10:39.980 And it was just sort of our bread and butter to mock one another lovingly.

00:10:43.760 Sometimes it hurt.

00:10:44.680 Most of the times it was funny.

00:10:46.680 And I wonder, like, what was your childhood experience when it, because you, you talk about this in your books.

00:10:52.000 You, you grew up pretty.

00:10:53.940 So did you, did you not have as much of that?

00:10:56.760 You know, they are like the physical barbs.

00:10:59.500 They're hurtful because they're new. 0.90

00:11:00.960 Well, the whole reason that, that, you know, I wrote this second book was because of that, you know, that one chapter in the first book, Fame, where, no, all the attacks I've gotten, I mean, you know, some in school where people kid and everybody's got a nickname, right?

00:11:19.260 You know, but I don't know.

00:11:23.340 That's just like, if you didn't have a nickname, you feel left out, you know, like some sort of mocking nickname.

00:11:28.060 Um, no, but for me, all the attacks came from, uh, fans, I guess, online and anti-fans online.

00:11:38.620 Um, so yeah, I, I had that one chapter in Fame about how people, um, criticize my face as it was getting older.

00:11:46.560 And, and, uh, and then I talk about, you know, why I decided to absorb that, why I thought they were right and I was wrong.

00:11:52.780 And I go into that in the Fame book.

00:11:54.380 And then I thought, well, why do we even think that way about women's older faces?

00:11:59.240 So that's where the second book came, um, came from.

00:12:02.640 But, um, that was, those are harder, uh, those were harder for me to, um, remove my buttons for, because there were so many people saying, I mean, I could find many, many, many message boards related to that topic.

00:12:18.280 And so, you know, part of my brain goes, well, if there are a lot of people saying, it must be true.

00:12:26.540 It must be true.

00:12:27.560 Right.

00:12:27.940 I mean, I think it's, but then I had to go, no, there's no, there, no, it's not.

00:12:31.340 And they're, um, they're all wrong.

00:12:33.840 How about that?

00:12:34.340 They're all wrong.

00:12:34.940 And I'm right.

00:12:35.800 You know, and then you go, I hope I'm not deluding myself.

00:12:38.600 I hope I'm not gaslighting myself about this.

00:12:41.820 You know, and I had all those kinds of thoughts.

00:12:43.640 Well, I, I love the saying, your only problem is your belief that you have a problem, you know, and it's, if you can get mind control over how you see it, then you dismantle your critics.

00:12:55.900 Well, and when you think about it, you know, the way you think about a situation, I mean, the only thing I feel like we have control over is, I mean, we have control over the choices we make and stuff.

00:13:06.220 But a lot of times, the only thing we have control over is our perception of the situation.

00:13:10.240 So, so yes, if somebody says something to you that, that, you know, affects you, affects your self-esteem and the way you, your identity, identity, I heard somebody say you can either have an identity or a personality, pick one.

00:13:25.840 So, so let's say it affects your personality or your confidence, better, better word.

00:13:31.380 So affects your confidence.

00:13:32.900 The only person who's keeping that negative thought alive that is affecting your confidence is you, really.

00:13:41.320 I mean, you know, the mind will rehearse it over and over and over and over and over again until it's dug in there pretty well, until it becomes, this idea then becomes a belief about yourself.

00:13:54.420 And I'm not talking about like self-help methods, like affirmations, because I've not found, maybe that's worked for some people, I've not found that to be helpful.

00:14:03.820 Well, I found it more helpful to get to the root fear that is keeping that rehearsal of that negative thought alive, get to that root fear, because that's the thing that is, that's the engine for that, the repetition of that thought.

00:14:18.420 You know, I was thinking about this after the Meghan Markle interview, because she made a comment that she tried to stay away from the press coverage of her.

00:14:30.280 And I thought, right on, that was the right move.

00:14:33.340 And then she said, but her, her quote, friends would call her up and say, it's bad, it's bad.

00:14:39.760 You know, they're not protecting you.

00:14:41.540 And A, the thought that she could be protected from tabloid press is, I think, a fantasy.

00:14:46.940 But B, I thought, people have done this to me, and I always tell them, don't forward me to negative articles about myself.

00:14:52.780 I don't, you may think you're doing me a favor, you're not doing me any favors.

00:14:55.280 I don't, I don't need to know.

00:14:56.480 There's a reason I avoid that stuff, like the bus exhaust it is.

00:15:00.000 And I thought, you know, maybe some of her unhappiness could have been avoided.

00:15:04.280 I realize it's out there, it's the buzz, it's the smog hanging over.

00:15:08.040 But you can't get rid of all of that.

00:15:10.440 You can only try to shield yourself from the most negative forces and sort of try to put in more positivity in that head.

00:15:18.820 And, you know, her world had a lot of positivity to look at, a lot of positivity, as does mine, you know, as does most people's.

00:15:26.260 And if it doesn't, then you got to work on that, right?

00:15:28.020 But willingly taking in the negativity is step one.

00:15:33.440 And then step two is when it gets to you, whether you're willingly taking it in or not, working on how you react to it, how you choose to react to it.

00:15:43.500 I'm going to offer something slightly different.

00:15:46.780 For me, knowing it was out there, knowing that, you know, and specifically negative, negative things about my face.

00:15:54.500 Because I needed to get to my root fear.

00:16:00.140 When I say my root fear, I mean like, okay, let's say that's true, then therefore what in my life?

00:16:07.880 If that's true, then what?

00:16:09.800 Then what am I going to lose in my life?

00:16:11.840 What's going to happen to me if all of that's true?

00:16:14.880 So for me, it was reading all of it.

00:16:17.280 So for me, it was, I want to see all of this because I want to be able to read all of it and have it not affect me at all.

00:16:25.200 So I want to go like, oh, that, that thing that they just said, oh, that, now I know it's just somebody who doesn't know me and God knows what they look like.

00:16:34.140 But it's, to me, like, that's not a, you know what I mean?

00:16:36.520 Like, it's, it's not like, you know, all the, the, the most attractive, smooth-faced people in the world were saying this stuff about my face getting older.

00:16:47.540 So, okay, so let's assume that.

00:16:51.860 And I was like, I wanted to read it.

00:16:54.520 And then, and then I go like, okay, how does that, why does that hit me?

00:16:57.920 How does that hit me?

00:16:58.960 For example, okay, I read that and like, I'm afraid, oh, if everybody thinks that, then nobody's going to look at my face.

00:17:05.160 Because people will, will turn away from looking at me.

00:17:09.360 And then, therefore, they won't look at my work.

00:17:12.320 And then no one will ever buy my books again.

00:17:14.480 And then no one will ever go see the films I make, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:17:17.860 And then I will never be able to work again, which is something that's really important to me.

00:17:21.920 I love working.

00:17:23.400 So you see how it's tied to, just as an example, tied to like a really core fear of mine.

00:17:31.240 Because if I couldn't work anymore, then I would, I would, that's not what I signed up for.

00:17:36.380 I'd be really unhappy in this life that I have.

00:17:39.760 So see how it's tied to that.

00:17:41.740 So why that would push a button.

00:17:44.140 So what I had to do then, I had to go, wait, okay, it's write it out without judging it, right?

00:17:49.780 Without editing it.

00:17:50.600 And then after reading that, going like, wait, do, now, wait, but this flies in the face of what I believe to be true in my life, which is that I get a basket of things.

00:17:59.280 I get a bunch of opportunities.

00:18:00.940 I get a bunch of situations, you know, with work that are for me.

00:18:10.420 You know, you get, you get a bunch that are for you.

00:18:13.040 Susie gets a bunch that are for her.

00:18:14.860 You know, Damien gets a bunch that are for him.

00:18:16.880 And that can't be taken away from me.

00:18:19.740 So no matter what anyone thinks of my face, these things can't be removed from me.

00:18:23.660 So I'm like, oh, so my fears are rational.

00:18:28.220 Let me ask you that.

00:18:29.400 Let me ask you that.

00:18:30.080 How do you get to that point when in your industry, looks are important, especially if you're going to be on camera.

00:18:36.440 There's this ridiculous standard that's totally unattainable by mere mortals.

00:18:40.600 But women do a lot to meet it. 1.00

00:18:42.840 So how do you get yourself past the point that you can still access your basket, which may include on camera work?

00:18:49.120 Yeah.

00:18:49.680 Well, you have to counter it with, with how I understand life works.

00:18:55.020 That's what I counter it with.

00:18:56.440 Like you'll wind up with what you should have.

00:18:59.120 Yes.

00:19:00.200 Regardless, regardless of my gender, my age, any of those things.

00:19:07.220 My, my future, my fate, if you will.

00:19:12.600 I mean, I don't look, I'm just guessing.

00:19:14.300 Maybe I'll know all this stuff, whether or not it's real when I die.

00:19:17.880 But I tell you this, thinking this way.

00:19:21.860 Makes.

00:19:23.260 I like the results in my life better than imagining that all these people are right.

00:19:31.560 It's proven itself out, is what I'm saying.

00:19:34.020 It's proven itself out.

00:19:35.640 Let's take a step back, just to get the audience up to speed on how we got here.

00:19:41.080 Most people know you were very famous.

00:19:44.200 I don't know if we can even call you a child actor.

00:19:46.140 Should we call you a child actor?

00:19:47.380 You started when you were, what, 16?

00:19:48.840 No, I started when I was 16.

00:19:50.920 So, you see.

00:19:51.700 So, teenage.

00:19:52.500 At a young age.

00:19:54.080 Sure.

00:19:54.540 Very, very, very successful.

00:19:56.200 I don't know if it was certainly one of the most successful shows of the 80s, if not, at least top three, right?

00:20:03.900 Family Ties.

00:20:04.880 I mean, one of the most successful shows of all time, for sure.

00:20:08.160 Yeah.

00:20:08.520 Yeah.

00:20:08.940 Ever.

00:20:09.340 So, you get this role.

00:20:11.120 You make it into something really special.

00:20:13.500 You were this gorgeous, sort of, you played the ditzy sister to Michael J. Fox. 0.66

00:20:18.800 And he was a breakout star, too.

00:20:20.440 I mean, he, I love the story about him that I saw not long ago saying, um, everybody said he remained a gentleman throughout the whole thing.

00:20:26.980 That even though it became this huge star, he never wanted star treatment.

00:20:30.280 That he always deferred to the older actors.

00:20:32.200 And that NBC actually wanted to give him special billing in the opening credits of the show.

00:20:36.480 And he declined, stayed the third top billing for the entire.

00:20:39.640 That's why we all love him.

00:20:40.780 All right.

00:20:40.940 That's why, like, we all love Michael J. Fox.

00:20:43.280 So, you're on that show.

00:20:45.760 Huge, huge fame.

00:20:47.420 If six years?

00:20:49.820 Seven.

00:20:50.560 Yeah.

00:20:51.080 Okay.

00:20:51.580 Seven years.

00:20:52.240 At a time.

00:20:53.300 And just set the stage.

00:20:54.020 Because at a time when there weren't 200 channels, everybody was watching one of three channels.

00:21:01.260 And everybody, like, what were the numbers on that show?

00:21:03.580 Just explain how popular you got.

00:21:07.100 Well, when you had a number one show.

00:21:08.740 Okay.

00:21:09.120 So, the 80s, yeah, you didn't have a consumer-facing internet.

00:21:15.580 You had, God, this is so long ago.

00:21:18.240 So, it was about, you'd get about somewhere between 20 to, like, 40 million people watching you every week.

00:21:29.840 And it was, because it was, you had to, I mean, unless you were really good with a VCR player, you had to watch it live.

00:21:38.440 But, yeah, I mean, it's definitely not that way now.

00:21:41.140 So, yeah, the fame was big.

00:21:45.200 And then I moved on from there and did, like, you know, worked as an actress for many, many years.

00:21:51.520 Doing plays and films.

00:21:53.600 And then, yeah, started doing other things.

00:21:59.140 And just so the audience has a perspective, the Golden Globes this year got 7 million people watching it.

00:22:04.960 The Oprah, Meghan Markle special, Prince Harry, had 17, which is considered a huge success.

00:22:10.880 So, this is more than double that.

00:22:12.720 Yeah, and 17, right, 17 million people would, you would be on the, on the, what they call on the bubble.

00:22:21.440 You may not, if you were a show back in the 80s and you had a 17, you had 17 million viewers, you're probably going to get canceled.

00:22:28.900 Oh, my gosh.

00:22:30.100 Think about that.

00:22:30.860 Yeah, for sure. 1.00

00:22:32.200 You see, you see 17 and you're like, oh, shit. 0.99

00:22:35.940 Oh, no, we're going to get canceled. 1.00

00:22:38.460 Yeah.

00:22:38.860 It's, it's hard to, like, get your arms around, but it does explain what superstars people like Ted Danson were, you know, starring in Cheers and Kelsey Grammer, Frasier and the cast of Friends.

00:22:50.580 It's more in the 90s, but still the numbers were huge back then.

00:22:53.040 Okay, so you, you're rocking and rolling and your first book was more about fame and what it's like when it starts to leave.

00:23:00.900 And your second book is about, I love it, a face, one square foot of skin and about aging.

00:23:07.580 And it's such a, such a different, sadly, perspective.

00:23:11.600 You know, like I said, in that book, Fame, there was that one chapter about accidentally Googling my name and, and seeing the autocomplete be, Jesse Bama looks old.

00:23:24.320 And at the time I was like, I was like 40 and I'd always looked young for my age.

00:23:28.460 And I was like, wait, what, am I, am I there now?

00:23:33.140 And, um, but then once I got on the other side of that, it took a while to sort of shape that interesting way.

00:23:39.160 And I talk about that in, in the book, Fame, the one you were talking about.

00:23:42.240 But then I, I started thinking about like, for, for, for the new book, Face, I started thinking, like, why, why do we even, why does society even have this position?

00:23:52.580 I mean, it's just like, you know, let's say one, one square foot of skin on somebody's face.

00:23:57.460 Like, why do they have this position that it needs to be fixed?

00:24:00.840 And I didn't like the fact that we had jumped from, um, wow, plastic surgery.

00:24:06.100 Oh, that's so unusual.

00:24:07.880 You know, it would be unusual for anyone to get it.

00:24:10.540 You know, you know, Joan Rivers was getting it.

00:24:12.540 And then maybe somebody's grandma, wealthy grandma or something.

00:24:16.620 Dolly Parton, Jane Fonda, but you can count them.

00:24:19.060 You can count them on one hand, the ones who were sort of publicly getting it.

00:24:22.580 Yes, it was, it was like unusual.

00:24:25.340 You know, it wasn't, um, it wasn't a consideration.

00:24:27.980 It wasn't a, it wasn't, it didn't seem like an option really.

00:24:31.800 And then we, we just seemed to hustle so quickly over to, um, well, these are the procedures that are possible.

00:24:39.580 You know, you can do Botox or you can put, use filler and all this sort of thing.

00:24:44.380 And then we just slammed right into, well, when, when is everyone getting it done?

00:24:49.660 Not should you, but when, are you going to start young?

00:24:53.480 Are you going to start at 20?

00:24:54.880 And I'm like, wait, what is going on?

00:24:58.780 I just think it's, I just think it's insane.

00:25:02.040 I think, and I think the core thought that, that motivates, um, a lot of these procedures, the core thought that, oh, there's something wrong with my face and I need, I need to fix it.

00:25:13.160 I think that is a very strange idea that has now become kind of woven into the fabric of the American woman now.

00:25:25.000 And I, I just, I just think it's worth looking at and going, hold on, what, why?

00:25:32.140 More with Justine in one minute on the Hollywood standards imposed on mere mortals. 0.98

00:25:38.160 That's in one second.

00:25:39.220 Stay tuned.

00:25:39.560 Stay tuned.

00:25:43.160 I feel it.

00:25:46.580 I feel the pressure to try to keep looking young, you know, in order to be attractive.

00:25:51.600 One of the reasons I admire you, cause you're just like, man, F that.

00:25:55.900 But my husband, he doesn't think like that at all.

00:25:59.560 You know, he's, he's also getting some wrinkles on men.

00:26:03.540 It's considered distinguished or hot or sexy, which all of which I think it is.

00:26:07.120 And on women, it's a totally different standard and we've accepted it. 0.94

00:26:12.960 Women, we haven't fought it. 1.00

00:26:15.240 In fact, we're the ones driving it.

00:26:17.040 Right.

00:26:17.280 I mean, that's what I, that's why I wanted to write the book.

00:26:20.380 Cause I was like, why have we received this?

00:26:23.900 What did they say?

00:26:24.420 Like, it's a suggestion and we go, okay.

00:26:27.080 And we like, you know, as if we're walking in a line, like with our hands out and they

00:26:31.320 just hand the suggestion who they is.

00:26:33.520 I don't know.

00:26:33.900 Right.

00:26:34.120 But the suggestion gets handed to us and we go, okay.

00:26:36.800 And we just like, we sort of inhale it.

00:26:39.120 Why?

00:26:40.420 But, but, and I don't mean that to be, um, a rhetorical.

00:26:44.600 Why?

00:26:44.900 I mean, I really wanted to get in there and go, no, there's got to be some core reason.

00:26:49.560 Like I was talking about earlier, there's got to be some irrational fear that anchors

00:26:54.620 that the desire to believe that the desire to believe that, you know, our faces are repulsive

00:27:03.640 and we need to fix them as soon as possible.

00:27:06.460 Okay.

00:27:06.900 And I think a lot of the book about how, how what's valued in girls is getting your pretty

00:27:13.300 card and that's your contract with society that you'll get it.

00:27:17.140 You're born with it.

00:27:18.020 Or if not, you'll make sure you get it and you'll make sure you don't lose it as you get

00:27:21.660 older.

00:27:21.980 That's your contract.

00:27:23.640 And isn't that weird?

00:27:24.720 Like you even, you even said, you want to make sure you, you continue to look younger

00:27:30.860 or I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what you just said, and make sure you continue

00:27:34.480 to look attractive.

00:27:36.280 Now, attractive is, is what, if someone's attracted to you, maybe they're attracted to

00:27:43.300 to your energy or your style or something like that.

00:27:47.100 But we, we put so much emphasis on the face, make sure the face still looks attractive.

00:27:54.620 Okay.

00:27:55.060 Then you go, what is the face?

00:27:57.140 What is the face telegraphing?

00:27:59.520 Is it telegraphing, um, you know, the, the plump lips or cheeks or, you know, so you still

00:28:07.040 look like you can breathe.

00:28:09.260 Is it that, do you know what I mean?

00:28:12.480 There's a lot of that tied into.

00:28:14.160 So then when we look at like, all right, well, let's look at it evolutionarily.

00:28:18.640 Then when we're looking at a tribal level, then are the people in the tribe that can still

00:28:23.480 breed?

00:28:25.380 Are those then do, do those people then get more resources or the ones that can't breed?

00:28:31.460 Maybe they'll be left behind.

00:28:32.580 If the tribe moves along to another area, you know, all of these things I think are, I think 0.63

00:28:38.040 some of them have been, I think they're vestigial thoughts that we still have in our brains.

00:28:44.920 And I do believe it's possible to just, you know, kind of, well, this is my fear.

00:28:50.340 And you'll write it out and then look at it and go, do I still think that's true?

00:28:53.880 Because is there anything about the way my face is going to change?

00:28:56.800 It's going to prohibit me from going down to the supermarket and buying whatever, um,

00:29:02.680 things I need, whatever resources I need.

00:29:05.620 Do you know what I'm saying?

00:29:06.400 So I wish we'd just look at it and go, Hey, I don't, there's a lot of ideas here that

00:29:12.260 don't apply to 2021.

00:29:16.300 Maybe they applied to the year 1400.

00:29:20.400 How do you think we got from A to B from where it was like, you could name on one hand, the

00:29:25.840 women who had had a facelift or plastic surgery to now where it's like expected, as you point 0.97

00:29:32.660 out.

00:29:32.900 I think it's science, um, affordability and profits.

00:29:40.760 So the methods got better.

00:29:43.360 Right.

00:29:44.240 I mean, it used to be like when somebody got a facelift, like you knew it.

00:29:47.940 I mean, you know, it now it was like, it's all very uncanny Valley, but it was super specific

00:29:52.340 back then.

00:29:52.900 Right.

00:29:53.100 It was, um, you know, that film Brazil where they pulled a saran wrap back on her face.

00:29:58.960 Um, I don't know if you recall that film, but no, um, very, it's very extreme.

00:30:03.320 So we have the science and then we have affordability, you know, there's, uh, uh, I, I think facelifts

00:30:10.380 are more affordable.

00:30:11.820 I believe, I don't know that for sure than they used to be, but also you have all these

00:30:15.600 other in-between procedures with fillers and Botox and all these things.

00:30:19.880 Um, and, you know, half a lift or just your eyes are just, you know, it's, it's, um, there

00:30:27.260 are affordable ways to get your face cut up, let's say, um, and then profitability.

00:30:35.380 This is big business.

00:30:37.020 It's big business.

00:30:38.080 Like a cosmetic company is going to make more money depending on the culture.

00:30:42.320 I will say though, based on my, my interviews with people that, that work in this industry,

00:30:47.020 the, um, if you're selling to America, it's going to be youth make.

00:30:53.620 So you look, you look younger, look younger, look younger.

00:30:55.680 So you'll name the same product that you're selling in France in the United States.

00:31:00.860 You'll, you'll name it like age defying in France.

00:31:04.720 Maybe it's just like skin enhancing.

00:31:07.700 I'm just making up phrases here, but you know what I mean?

00:31:10.340 And it's depending on like, what is that culture afraid of really?

00:31:15.720 Right.

00:31:16.600 And then there's a lot of, a lot of money in, in selling fixes to a bunch of frightened people.

00:31:27.040 A lot of money.

00:31:28.840 You know, it's not, it, it's not just faces, right? 0.90

00:31:31.980 It's like now people are blowing up their butts to look like enormous. 0.98

00:31:36.660 You're no longer allowed to let your butt sag or have a flat, but you got to have it huge. 0.99

00:31:43.200 And then you got to wear a bunch of tight leggings to show off how big your butt is. 0.98

00:31:46.900 Like, how did we get to that point? 0.95

00:31:49.180 I like, you're not allowed to have saggy skin anywhere.

00:31:53.380 Megan, have you heard about the, the, the hand treatment?

00:31:56.240 Like, I think they shoot it up with fillers or something like, and it's called like the Instagram

00:32:01.700 engagement hand or something where you, so you just got married.

00:32:06.220 You're going to have a picture of your ring on your hand, but Oh my dear, your hand looks

00:32:10.200 like a worker hand.

00:32:12.020 It's veined and you know how hands look, right?

00:32:15.360 Yes.

00:32:15.740 So you're going to do like, like kind of update your hand so that when you have that engagement

00:32:21.440 ring picture, your hand looks like a 14 year old.

00:32:26.320 I don't know.

00:32:26.880 There's no limit.

00:32:27.800 There's no limit to the vanity.

00:32:29.460 I mean, of course I, I, my lay person assessment is it's all the fault of the Kardashians and

00:32:35.400 others like them.

00:32:36.120 You know, it's like social media influencers, reality television, which is anything but,

00:32:42.720 and these crazy false images that are put out there for young girls to think that is

00:32:48.260 how women look. 1.00

00:32:50.120 True.

00:32:50.400 But I think it started a bit before them.

00:32:52.540 And I think if you also combine the, um, the digital recording, the, um, high definition

00:33:00.760 digital recording of films and TV too, where you see more, you're not recording on film.

00:33:06.120 Hardly ever now where you have like this, you know, sort of grainy richness to the, to

00:33:11.980 the film, you know, it's amazing when I was on camera, I desperately wish I noticed that

00:33:17.700 in your own work.

00:33:19.580 I'm sure you notice that sometimes, especially in your industry, it's like, I will not get

00:33:23.700 the role.

00:33:24.160 If I look my age, I have no choice if I want roles in Hollywood, but to make myself look

00:33:31.200 younger, that that's a truism, isn't it?

00:33:33.820 Well, to me as a director, I can't really use, um, faces that have been altered because

00:33:42.980 it's, I'm going to get uncanny Valley, um, from my audience.

00:33:48.620 And what I mean is like the audience is going to be, I want to draw them in emotionally as,

00:33:53.800 as much as I can.

00:33:54.780 I want them to be really all in emotionally.

00:33:58.140 And if I'm doing anything that rings untrue in the film, either through my dialogue or,

00:34:04.800 or the locations or, you know, or behavior from the characters, um, they're gonna, they'll

00:34:11.920 maybe continue watching it, but then they'll become arm's length to the project.

00:34:16.380 So, and one of those things is going to make them arm's length is if the, if there's something

00:34:23.900 wrong with somebody's face, because somewhere in the core of them as a human, they're going

00:34:28.800 to go, Ooh, something's wrong.

00:34:29.840 Something's wrong.

00:34:30.700 Right.

00:34:31.240 So I don't want that to happen.

00:34:32.760 And also there's a certain type of person that changes their face.

00:34:38.140 And I think there's a level of fear and insecurity that is going to come across on camera.

00:34:46.120 It's going to be hard to, um, shove down on camera.

00:34:53.220 And that is, so I don't really want to capture that.

00:34:56.500 It's a, it's a, um, sadly you are in a class of one or two.

00:35:01.280 Like, I don't think, I don't know your industry that well, but it just seems like these Hollywood

00:35:05.060 directors or the casting agents, they, they have, as you point out in your book, this

00:35:09.400 standard of beauty and all the women are clamoring to meet it in Hollywood and elsewhere. 1.00

00:35:15.420 Cause it's not just the Hollywood casting folks who set this standard.

00:35:19.020 It's, it's us setting it on ourselves.

00:35:22.840 And I think in your, in your industry in particular, it's very hard for women.

00:35:28.480 Are you, what are you 50?

00:35:30.540 How old are you?

00:35:31.240 I'm 55.

00:35:32.140 I just turned 55 and I'm 50.

00:35:34.300 So it's very hard for women in our, in our age range.

00:35:37.120 Cause when you're, let's say under 40, you're still holding it together pretty well.

00:35:43.080 Generally, like you're whatever you're, I guess there's a judgment in just the way I

00:35:46.880 put it, but you're, you're not really aging on your face that much.

00:35:50.180 And if you're over, let's say 60 or 65, if you're Judy Dench, if you're a Helen Mirren,

00:35:56.040 you're, your older face can be celebrated in and cast in certain roles, the queen, right?

00:36:02.040 She has to have some wrinkles, but the women between 40 and 60, 40 and 65 are in this weird 1.00

00:36:07.960 space.

00:36:09.220 Like, what are we?

00:36:10.680 Are we young?

00:36:11.360 Are we old?

00:36:12.100 Are we mature?

00:36:12.940 Are we, you know?

00:36:13.860 And I, I think you see a lot less sadly of those women, stars you fell in love with in

00:36:18.820 their twenties, uh, once they hit, I don't know, around our age.

00:36:24.240 I feel like there's a lot of women at this age, not, not in the entertainment business, 0.93

00:36:29.060 but just in life that sort of fold into, they sort of stopped becoming, they stopped developing

00:36:35.140 as individuals.

00:36:35.800 It seems to me, and they start folding into kind of what might be expected of them, what

00:36:41.960 they imagine is expected of them, like certain types of older women that they're supposed 0.91

00:36:47.400 to become, like the easily indignant, the, um, or the, the caring, you know, pre-grandmother.

00:36:55.060 There's, there's certain sort of tropes, if you will.

00:36:59.520 And, and I think when writers are looking around at older women, like that's a lot of what they're

00:37:04.560 seeing.

00:37:05.560 And so they're writing, I mean, there's a lot of reasons that I don't act anymore.

00:37:12.080 And one of them is that like, I like playing me so much more than I like playing any of

00:37:18.140 those characters.

00:37:19.280 And that's, you know what I mean?

00:37:20.900 Oh, is it also because Hollywood wasn't catering to the parts you, you would have played that

00:37:24.960 you would have leaned into?

00:37:26.340 Nah, because it started for me when I was younger.

00:37:28.180 I guess what I'm saying is when we look at women who are around that age in life, what

00:37:35.220 are they doing?

00:37:36.460 Like, what are, what are some examples of what are they doing and what kind of personalities

00:37:41.260 do they have?

00:37:42.200 I'm just saying a lot of times writers are looking around and reflecting what's going

00:37:47.520 on.

00:37:47.960 And then maybe women see that in films and then reflect that in real life. 1.00

00:37:52.380 And then maybe it's a chicken than the egg kind of situation.

00:37:56.120 I mean, I am going to do a film adaptation of the book Face and there sure will be a lot

00:38:00.580 of older women in that film.

00:38:03.340 Let me just back up and ask you about something you said earlier when you're saying, I can't

00:38:06.540 put somebody on the screen who looks wrong, right?

00:38:09.640 And for the women who are out there who have had surgery on their face or Botox, I mean, 0.64

00:38:15.480 I've had Botox, but filler, you know, up to the eyeballs and so on.

00:38:19.580 And, you know, they would say it's not wrong.

00:38:21.800 It's a personal choice.

00:38:22.540 It's no different than wearing makeup or doing your hair.

00:38:25.020 You know, you, you don't like, you're not satisfied with the way you look when you wake

00:38:29.160 up in the morning and therefore you make an effort to look what you would consider, quote,

00:38:32.300 your best.

00:38:33.300 And is it really so much a far afield of wearing makeup and getting your hair done and wearing

00:38:38.900 a nice outfit to then have a nip or a tuck or a filler or Botox or what have you?

00:38:44.580 Right.

00:38:45.500 And I, I, I, you know, explore that, uh, in a couple of the stories, that position.

00:38:52.080 So let's say the root fear is as I get older, no, people aren't going to want to work with

00:38:56.780 me anymore.

00:38:57.680 Okay.

00:38:58.580 So then you change your face.

00:39:00.900 You, you haven't attended to that fear.

00:39:03.520 I would have.

00:39:04.580 You've just staved it off temporarily.

00:39:06.120 Maybe you haven't even staved it off.

00:39:07.620 You still, so now you've got, for me, if I were to do anything to my face and let's

00:39:13.880 say that was my fear and I, and I did something to my face, then I, instead of having one problem

00:39:18.720 to deal with, I would then have two problems.

00:39:21.160 Now I've changed my face, which for me personally, isn't something I want to do.

00:39:25.800 And I still have that fear.

00:39:28.320 So if, what if somebody attended to that fear and after attending to that fear, they still

00:39:33.260 want to change their face and fine.

00:39:34.980 But I feel like every time I'm challenged with, you know, like I get a button push, I

00:39:40.800 have an opportunity to become a bulletproof and I am not going to push off any of those

00:39:48.700 opportunities because like, I don't have that much time.

00:39:52.960 I mean, I want, I want, I want the time I have here to be, um, more free.

00:40:00.400 Um, so yeah.

00:40:02.380 Have you, do you feel like you, you've gotten to the bulletproof place?

00:40:07.340 Cause I, what I remember is you talking about the pain of entering your name, Justine Bateman

00:40:14.900 in the Google search and seeing the auto fill come up with something like Justine Bateman

00:40:20.340 looks old or it was something not nice and just how painful that was for you.

00:40:27.440 So, and you are, you won't, you're not changing your face.

00:40:31.140 You're not doing the things you're aging like a normal person.

00:40:36.440 It's somehow it's newsworthy, but you're aging like a normal person.

00:40:42.280 So what was it?

00:40:43.540 Just soaking in all of that negativity, like looking at all the criticism and then just

00:40:49.660 keeping on, keeping on.

00:40:51.180 Like, how did you get from A to B from the pain of that moment to now?

00:40:54.080 It wasn't a pain, which was the curious thing to me.

00:40:57.200 It wasn't a pain.

00:40:58.060 It was a, it was confusion.

00:41:00.260 Basically it was, I didn't know what they were talking about.

00:41:04.060 I mean, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I just had never been.

00:41:07.020 I like a mixy.

00:41:09.480 No, I was just like, I'd never even really thought about, you know, I was just like accepted

00:41:13.940 as like, quote, attractive to, to the, to this society standards, whatever.

00:41:20.960 Right.

00:41:21.520 So I'd never been attacked in my face.

00:41:23.540 And I was just like, wait, what?

00:41:25.420 So it was confusing to me.

00:41:27.340 And then as I go in the book, I, I had a choice to make, I could either make them wrong and

00:41:36.300 me right or them right and me wrong.

00:41:40.340 And because, and this was a while ago, because I was still, I was dealing with like the fame

00:41:48.260 going, there was something about making them right and me wrong that kept just a little

00:41:55.360 bit of, well, they're all talking about me.

00:41:58.440 So it's a little bit famous.

00:41:59.980 It's almost like being like the fat kid in the third grade.

00:42:02.320 It's like, you let them call you fatty and you know, they're like, Hey, we're just kidding. 0.83

00:42:08.500 We're just kidding.

00:42:09.140 And you get to be with them and hang with that gang.

00:42:13.640 If you let them call you fatty, if you reject that idea, you're like, I don't want to play

00:42:18.300 that part.

00:42:19.120 All right.

00:42:19.720 Well then you're not part of the gang and you're going to be eating lunch by yourself.

00:42:24.160 So it was that kind of choice for me.

00:42:26.660 And, and that was a big mistake for me because it, it brought in that, those criticisms, it

00:42:34.340 really planted those criticisms in me.

00:42:36.660 And it took me a while to get that off of myself.

00:42:40.900 But that, again, that was a while ago and that was something in the, in the last book.

00:42:45.640 You went into life, but you say looking forward to aging, you thought there was something kind

00:42:52.300 of cool, exotic, sexy about the women you saw who were older.

00:42:56.900 Like these cool French ladies. 1.00

00:42:57.980 And I got back to that.

00:42:59.320 Yeah.

00:42:59.760 So it was basically society that started to take that away from you in that moment where

00:43:04.540 you saw the.

00:43:05.840 Kelly, it wasn't even society.

00:43:07.520 It was these people online.

00:43:11.500 It was these people online.

00:43:13.260 It was these message boards online.

00:43:16.920 And, uh, you know, I, you empowered them.

00:43:20.220 You empowered them by putting them in your own head.

00:43:22.140 And I received it because it, it, it, it, um, it suited something I was looking for at

00:43:32.560 that time that had nothing to do with my faith.

00:43:34.260 Um, there's actually an ode to them in, um, one of the stories.

00:43:40.800 Wait, there's a story.

00:43:43.940 Um, I'm going to get the name for you.

00:43:47.640 There's a story about a very famous actress, way more famous than I ever was.

00:43:53.900 Let's call, let's call it like a, um, a, uh, Julia Roberts level actress.

00:44:00.200 Okay.

00:44:01.320 I'm not saying this about Julia Roberts at all, but let's say that level of fame. 0.79

00:44:05.400 Okay.

00:44:06.720 And it's not, it's a chapter eight and her name's Donna.

00:44:10.980 Oh yeah.

00:44:11.500 This is the 48 year old who went to her reunion.

00:44:14.620 Exactly.

00:44:15.120 She goes to her high school reunion and all these people are saying things about her.

00:44:18.300 There's a batch of women that say a bunch of things about her. 1.00

00:44:20.820 And then there's a batch of men that say a bunch of things about her.

00:44:23.900 And these are things that were said about me.

00:44:29.480 Hmm.

00:44:30.640 Um, so if people want to read some of the stuff that is about me, they can read that

00:44:39.620 eighth story in the book's face. 1.00

00:44:42.540 Um, yeah, that's my ode to all those, all those little assholes. 1.00

00:44:49.480 Right. 1.00

00:44:50.160 Exactly.

00:44:51.280 Well, whatever, you know, it's yeah.

00:44:53.780 Yeah.

00:44:54.220 I was just going to say, can we just spend a minute on why it's different for men?

00:44:59.720 You know, I mean, you, you have a very famous brother who I grew up watching on Little House

00:45:06.120 on the Prairie, but now he stars in Ozark and all sorts of different things.

00:45:10.660 That was where I fell in love with him.

00:45:12.480 He was with my friend, Melissa Francis.

00:45:14.180 He played Melissa Francis's.

00:45:16.060 That's right.

00:45:16.960 And he had a bowl cut.

00:45:18.900 His like prairie cut haircut.

00:45:21.900 Yeah.

00:45:22.060 It was appropriate for the setting.

00:45:24.860 It sure was.

00:45:26.520 So he, he, he, men are allowed to age in Hollywood and in life.

00:45:31.440 They, they are like I was saying about my husband, Doug.

00:45:33.720 I mean, Doug's, he doesn't, he has no vanity.

00:45:35.600 So even if he weren't quote allowed to, I just can't see him ever doing anything, but

00:45:39.500 women are raised to be more vain, I think, right, right from birth. 1.00

00:45:43.680 So, so how do we wind up in the place where, and I don't presume to know anything about

00:45:48.260 your brother's approach to surgery, just saying that the difference is stark.

00:45:54.900 And so how are we at that point where I realize some men are vain.

00:45:59.300 Some men do feel the need to get a nip or a tuck, even in, in my business, even in media,

00:46:03.180 I, I, I definitely know some men who've had hair plugs put in or have had that major jowl

00:46:08.300 thing that happens underneath the male chin fixed, um, and Botox for sure. 0.99

00:46:15.660 I mean, people can see that with their own eyes when they watch the television screen,

00:46:18.960 but I just, I really don't, other than what you say in your book about women needing the

00:46:24.420 pretty card and, and society deeming pretty to look young.

00:46:28.740 Why doesn't it apply to them?

00:46:30.240 Why, how, how can we be more like them in this way?

00:46:33.960 There's a lot of things that guys do that I, uh, want to be more and more and more like,

00:46:41.600 because I, I think there's a lot of things that, okay.

00:46:45.140 Like, um, uh, like someone says, uh, uh, can you do this job?

00:46:50.600 Do you have these skills?

00:46:51.660 And they go, yeah, sure.

00:46:53.620 Whereas you got the women going, well, I, I know some of Excel. 0.99

00:47:00.040 I don't know all of Excel.

00:47:01.680 I don't know.

00:47:02.280 You know, and the guys are like, yeah.

00:47:03.720 And they're like, Oh, excuse me.

00:47:05.720 I don't know if we can cuss on here. 0.99

00:47:06.820 No, it's fine.

00:47:07.360 Um, okay.

00:47:08.280 They said, they're like, I'll just figure it out.

00:47:10.160 I'll just figure it out.

00:47:11.120 Um, and, um, and just like, I don't know.

00:47:16.480 Look, I'm, I'm speaking very generally, you know, there's lots of men that are more neurotic

00:47:21.580 about stuff like that. 0.99

00:47:22.480 But, um, I find that men more so than women don't sweat the small shit. 0.99

00:47:29.240 They just kind of like, well, is there some way to solve this? 0.99

00:47:32.660 Let's just do it.

00:47:33.620 You know, um, and I, I'm speaking, you know, probably too generally, but anyway, yeah.

00:47:39.580 And one of the things is like not being concerned about their faces.

00:47:42.880 Now, I think, I think, again, I think a lot of this is tied to, um, is tied to evolution

00:47:54.140 is tied to procreation is tied to, let's say there's a parent who, uh, looks at his, um,

00:48:03.620 daughter, um, I'll just keep it to women since we're saying guys don't necessarily do, but,

00:48:09.860 uh, you know, say a mother looks at her daughter and her daughter's not really, um, you know,

00:48:14.840 brushing her hair and she's, you know, her face is kind of, uh, she's not being put in any makeup

00:48:19.960 on or anything.

00:48:20.900 And, you know, she just kind of, I don't know, maybe she's got some dirt on her face or she 1.00

00:48:26.980 marked her face with a pen by accident when she was drawing or something like this.

00:48:31.340 And the mother might say, you know, Ellen, you know, get yourself put together.

00:48:37.100 You look a wreck, you know, now, why is this being said?

00:48:42.460 Is it, oh my God, is it, is there some vestigial fear, like just in the human that, that is concerned

00:48:51.220 that the daughter won't find a mate and then what will become of her? 0.97

00:48:55.580 Do you know what I mean?

00:48:57.840 And I'm not saying we think of these things consciously, but even the whole idea of when

00:49:02.840 you see somebody's little girl, uh, you know, you, you haven't seen them for a while and

00:49:08.820 you're like, oh, and this is my daughter.

00:49:10.140 I don't think you've met her.

00:49:10.840 Oh my God.

00:49:11.320 She's two years old or she's a year old or whatever.

00:49:13.860 And you go, oh my God, she's so pretty.

00:49:16.660 She's so pretty.

00:49:17.520 Now, if you were to not say that, you'd create a little elephant in the room.

00:49:22.960 You say like, oh, wow, that's great.

00:49:26.740 Congratulations.

00:49:28.780 Right now, immediately somebody, the parents get, there's something is going to like, you've,

00:49:33.540 you've raised a flag in there.

00:49:35.040 They're like, oh, wow.

00:49:36.000 I'd say she's pretty. 0.95

00:49:36.940 Like, that's weird.

00:49:38.100 We went to, um, my daughter's all girls school, which is amazing.

00:49:41.940 It's a wonderful school.

00:49:43.520 Too woke for my taste, but a wonderful school.

00:49:46.260 And they produce these super smart, strong, young women who I admire a lot. 0.99

00:49:54.020 And when we went to the school, um, we went to, I don't know, it was one of those parent,

00:49:59.200 parent nights where you go and they like put on a panel of existing parents at the school

00:50:04.160 and they tell you about the school.

00:50:05.200 And there was this one guy who got up there and he's talking about his daughter and she's

00:50:10.180 at this amazing all girls school.

00:50:12.160 And she turns out super accomplished.

00:50:13.880 And the guy stands up and literally like the first thing he said about his daughter when

00:50:18.900 he was describing her to us, she wasn't there was, you know, my daughter's a whatever greater

00:50:23.660 and she's beautiful.

00:50:26.780 She's, she's so pretty and whatever came next.

00:50:30.960 And I remember thinking like, oh my God, it's so jarring.

00:50:33.500 In no world would any dad stand up talking about his son and say, my son is so good looking.

00:50:43.580 He's so handsome.

00:50:45.960 It wouldn't happen.

00:50:48.840 What now?

00:50:49.640 What would he say?

00:50:50.400 What would he say?

00:50:51.120 My son has a, you know, here's his GPA and he has these accomplishments and, you know,

00:50:56.680 confident, confident young man.

00:50:59.780 Yep.

00:51:00.540 But, you know, because if you say something like that, or if you say that you're trying

00:51:04.040 to set somebody else up on a date, you know, some guy and you say, oh, you got to meet my

00:51:08.940 friend, Jenny.

00:51:10.020 You know, she has a great personality.

00:51:11.740 And then he's immediately like, why, why, why is she?

00:51:14.700 Right.

00:51:14.840 That's code for ugly. 1.00

00:51:16.580 Totally.

00:51:18.180 It's just an interesting thing to contemplate.

00:51:20.560 You know, I mean, I don't know.

00:51:22.000 I don't know what the fix is there or anything, but it's an interesting thing.

00:51:25.520 More of us to get unattractive, lean into our unattractiveness.

00:51:29.540 I mean, really, it's like, I, I watch you refusing to do anything to your face and letting

00:51:35.360 yourself age gracefully, naturally.

00:51:38.060 And I think, yes, that's the solution.

00:51:39.980 I want, I want that to happen for my daughter.

00:51:41.900 And I think, okay, so stop getting Botox. 1.00

00:51:43.660 And I'm like, fuck that. 1.00

00:51:45.160 I can't, I can't get myself out of it, Justine. 0.99

00:51:49.560 Up next, we're going to talk about what the messaging should be to children when it comes

00:51:53.660 to appearance, right?

00:51:55.100 How many times have you heard about a young girl?

00:51:57.480 She's such a pretty girl.

00:51:58.580 That's like the number one thing.

00:51:59.700 So pretty.

00:52:00.900 Well, what does that mean?

00:52:01.820 Should we be doing that?

00:52:02.740 Is that sexist?

00:52:03.500 Is it damaging?

00:52:04.480 More importantly, she's got some thoughts and it's interesting what she said to her own

00:52:09.280 daughter and how she handled it. 0.97

00:52:10.760 But before we get to that, we're going to bring you a feature called Asked and Answered.

00:52:15.280 And that's where Steve Krakauer comes in, our EP, with a question from one of you all,

00:52:20.320 y'all, and I'll hopefully give an answer.

00:52:22.520 Hey, Steve.

00:52:22.820 Hey, Megan.

00:52:23.520 Yes, this comes to us from questions at devilmakehairmedia.com and from Max Wilson,

00:52:29.080 who worked in local TV news for a decade.

00:52:31.020 And he has a question about the legacy media.

00:52:33.380 Will they ever recover from COVID-19?

00:52:35.640 What a financial mess they're in.

00:52:37.200 Make no mistake, the legacy media is in real trouble because how are they ever going to

00:52:40.740 get their workers to return to work to their massive studios?

00:52:44.020 They better threaten them, right?

00:52:45.960 I mean, like, that's what's going to have to happen.

00:52:47.980 Here in New York, some of the bankers are doing that.

00:52:49.980 Like, hey, you want to come back and earn your New York money?

00:52:52.280 Great.

00:52:52.580 No problem.

00:52:53.140 Get down to the building.

00:52:54.640 You cannot work remotely from Oklahoma, where prices are one-tenth what they are in Manhattan

00:53:00.160 and expect us to pay you the same amount.

00:53:02.600 And listen, there are certain bodies that kind of have to be in studio, and we've seen that.

00:53:07.580 So they're going to have to go back and probably already are.

00:53:09.200 And certain people don't have to be there.

00:53:11.120 And I think there's nothing wrong with letting those people continue to work remotely.

00:53:14.280 But I don't see the legacy media going out of business because of COVID.

00:53:18.120 If anything, they're going to go out of business because of cord cutting and how, you know,

00:53:22.300 media has just changed in general to a much younger, more dynamic way of consumption.

00:53:26.920 You know, you can have it on your phone.

00:53:28.180 You can watch your favorite show on your way to work while you're driving your car.

00:53:31.820 You don't need to sit around waiting until nine o'clock to watch your favorite anchor.

00:53:36.780 You can see him or her whenever you want.

00:53:38.640 But I do think in general, like especially here in New York, which is the hub of media,

00:53:42.940 there's so much fright over COVID that it's going to take a while before they get people

00:53:46.880 back in these buildings.

00:53:48.340 You know, they've been led to believe that they can get it from touching desks, which

00:53:51.040 really has not turned out to be true.

00:53:52.780 And so until we sort of collectively lower the moral panic that is still lingering over

00:53:58.260 this city like a hangover, it's going to be tough for these employers.

00:54:01.540 And I don't think it's good.

00:54:03.140 I don't think it's good for so many people to be in their houses by themselves working

00:54:05.880 all day.

00:54:06.780 You got to get out.

00:54:07.500 You got to see other people.

00:54:08.800 You got to interact with other human beings as much as we dislike them.

00:54:12.260 I think we have to do it, don't you?

00:54:14.040 Every once in a while, you need to see other humans.

00:54:17.060 So I hope that happens.

00:54:18.200 I think that'll happen just as soon as New York gets on its way to recovery.

00:54:21.120 As for the bias in mainstream media, that's their problem.

00:54:25.180 Good luck.

00:54:26.540 Thank you for the question.

00:54:28.480 And what's the address?

00:54:30.260 I always forget the address, Steve.

00:54:31.480 Where do they contact us?

00:54:33.220 Questions at devilmaycaremedia.com.

00:54:35.520 Okay, why don't you do the toss?

00:54:38.180 That's Justine Bateman right after this.

00:54:46.820 When I was in my 20s, my goal was to, you know, I thought, oh man, when I'm,

00:54:51.120 old, I want to look like Georgia O'Keeffe.

00:54:53.480 And I'll never get there if I do anything to my face.

00:54:56.680 I'll derail my goal.

00:54:58.720 So there's no way.

00:55:00.860 And also, like, I just feel like it's one of the most defiant things I can do. 0.94

00:55:08.280 I mean, it sounds so ridiculous. 0.82

00:55:09.740 Yes, it does, but you're right. 0.95

00:55:12.100 But that's where we put it.

00:55:12.540 Not just by letting my face, you know, grow into whatever it's going to become, but also

00:55:18.640 at the same time, having an attitude that is, hey, I'm, now I don't want to say pretty

00:55:26.260 or beautiful or anything like that because of what we just said.

00:55:28.820 But I want to say, like, I am somebody that people are drawn to.

00:55:35.660 Let's just say that.

00:55:37.280 Because of my face, because I have a pretty face.

00:55:40.800 What if attractive just means people are drawn to you because you're magnetic or you're confident.

00:55:46.480 You have something they want.

00:55:48.460 I don't mean like, you know, like they want to use you.

00:55:50.800 I mean, like, they, whatever you've got going on, they wish they had that going on.

00:55:55.940 Right.

00:55:56.500 No, like, so I hate it.

00:55:58.240 This is a weird turn.

00:56:00.540 Very weird.

00:56:01.340 Forgive me.

00:56:02.020 But I'm thinking about Bill O'Reilly.

00:56:05.860 The reason I'm thinking about Bill O'Reilly is because in the media industry, for a long

00:56:12.240 time, he was the biggest star, certainly one of them, and definitely the biggest star in

00:56:15.500 all of cable and had the number one show in all of cable for like almost 20 years.

00:56:19.220 Now, Bill is not a particularly attractive man.

00:56:22.200 He has nice blue eyes.

00:56:23.140 I'll give him that.

00:56:23.720 And I think Bill would be the first to say this about himself.

00:56:27.300 He used to be pretty self-deprecating about his himself and his looks.

00:56:32.100 No one cared.

00:56:33.180 He became a huge star because he was a great television presenter.

00:56:36.320 He knew how to spin a really interesting story, how to condense information in a very compelling

00:56:40.980 way.

00:56:41.640 He had strong opinions.

00:56:43.080 He used humor.

00:56:44.120 There were all sorts of reasons why he was such a success.

00:56:46.800 And he didn't have to be attractive and he didn't really care.

00:56:50.560 He wasn't the guy who had all the surgery.

00:56:52.180 And I, I admired that, you know, I, I can see, I can see other people doing it and we

00:56:59.220 need more, we need more women doing it. 1.00

00:57:01.920 Okay.

00:57:02.460 But it's scary.

00:57:04.200 Wait, now let's take that example.

00:57:07.320 Knowing now I'm going to assume a lot of things about Bill.

00:57:10.760 I don't know, Bill, but this is what you mean, Bill is, you know, quote unquote, Bill

00:57:14.780 as an example, okay, successful Bill, right?

00:57:18.720 Yeah.

00:57:19.380 Okay.

00:57:20.180 Knowing that he couldn't use his looks, he developed other ways to attract viewers.

00:57:31.960 Now let's, let's, what if we went to all the ladies and we said, you're going to do all 0.99

00:57:39.900 of your broadcasts with a bag over your head.

00:57:46.380 So you will have to develop other ways to attract viewers.

00:57:52.940 Do you think if that was the case or if they even thought that was the case, if they operated

00:57:58.380 like that, that we would have, um, we would be attracted to, uh, some of these broadcasts,

00:58:09.380 do you think the women would develop more complex and interesting ways to get viewers? 1.00

00:58:17.860 Uh, shit. 1.00

00:58:20.160 Yes. 1.00

00:58:20.700 I don't know.

00:58:21.220 I do.

00:58:22.040 I know I do.

00:58:22.860 And I think to your points, it, it applies beyond broadcasting too, that what if we were

00:58:29.140 more rich, more layered, more interesting beings?

00:58:34.820 I always used to joke, Justine, um, that, that, um, skirts and high heels were men's way

00:58:40.980 of holding women back.

00:58:42.040 Just, it was a joke, but kind of a grain of truth.

00:58:45.820 And what if this whole narrative is, is a way of, it's not just men, but like men and

00:58:52.540 women holding women back? 1.00

00:58:55.140 What if we, what if we could be more of a kaleidoscope?

00:58:58.700 What if we could be more layered if we weren't so obsessed with the, with the face, this one

00:59:04.420 square foot of skin, as you say?

00:59:07.280 Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't, I don't want to lay all that on men because I think women 0.99

00:59:11.500 are, I think, I think it's like split between women and men as to who, who's like, you know,

00:59:17.960 trying to convince Susie that, you know, she should get her face changed or that there's

00:59:22.600 something wrong with her or something.

00:59:23.500 I think for the men, it has a lot to do with how they are going to be perceived by other

00:59:28.680 men.

00:59:30.300 So if a man has a frumpy wife, then do his friends then think less of him?

00:59:37.980 Um, if, uh, but if he has a wife that looks like, has a aspirational look to her or whatever,

00:59:48.040 do they go there?

00:59:48.800 Like, Hey, Joe, how'd you snag Katie?

00:59:53.180 She's amazing looking. 1.00

00:59:55.180 Whoa, dude, what did you do to get her?

00:59:57.960 So it, it elevates who he is, what kind of person he is.

01:00:02.180 Right.

01:00:03.140 Meanwhile, his looks don't do the same, right?

01:00:05.140 Vanity in a man is still not attractive.

01:00:08.380 I think we haven't crossed over to where, you know, you see a man who's like too Botoxed

01:00:13.060 and like too obsessed.

01:00:14.660 Like, I'm sorry, you don't have to comment on this, but like Chris Cuomo putting out the

01:00:18.080 videos of him lifting the weights and trying to look super tough and muscly.

01:00:21.160 That stuff I think is still generally unattractive in society.

01:00:26.080 And yeah, that's so they've been saved from a place on a, on a news show either.

01:00:31.280 But like, yeah, let's not even get into that.

01:00:34.040 Okay.

01:00:34.660 I'll say this.

01:00:35.800 I will say this in my experience, very attractive women and very attractive men are far less. 0.94

01:00:44.620 They are far less interesting personalities, generally speaking, in my experience than

01:00:50.080 people who are not.

01:00:51.480 And I do think that's because people who are not instead focused on becoming interesting

01:00:59.500 people.

01:00:59.900 Were you okay now you, but you and I, let me ask you about this because I think you and

01:01:04.280 I have had, had a different experience because you, you talk about in your book, how you grew

01:01:08.160 up pretty.

01:01:08.880 I did not grow up pretty, which was a blessing for the very reasons you're talking about.

01:01:14.040 I had to develop other skills.

01:01:15.740 I was not an attractive child.

01:01:17.540 I really pretty much looked like a boy for the first 12 years of my life.

01:01:20.360 And then I just looked like a chunky acne ridden teenager with a weird space between my

01:01:24.560 two front teeth, which I later had fixed.

01:01:26.100 That's my experience wasn't until I got to like high school that I was like, maybe if 0.89

01:01:31.720 I made an effort, I could get the social shit of being attractive like that would, I think 0.85

01:01:39.120 it would help me. 0.91

01:01:40.220 But by the way, not for nothing, but I was voted the most popular girl in my eighth grade

01:01:45.740 class when I was still unattractive, I was still unattractive and I have the pictures to prove

01:01:50.680 it.

01:01:51.180 So I had the experience of like work, the other skills, like, you know, how the blind 0.99

01:01:55.400 man is a great listener.

01:01:57.580 Right.

01:01:58.020 I, I, I got there.

01:01:59.580 So, so how did you get so complex?

01:02:02.320 You know, having the pretty girl experience. 0.87

01:02:04.560 But I wasn't, I didn't know if it was like the schools I was going to or the cities I

01:02:10.700 lived in or something like that.

01:02:12.180 There was just no emphasis on it.

01:02:14.660 I mean, I guess I would just, you know, I guess it was one of those things where, well,

01:02:21.260 like I said earlier, like, you know, you meet like your parents' friends and they go,

01:02:24.700 oh, she's so, what a pretty girl or something.

01:02:27.120 I don't know.

01:02:27.580 I guess I was just like, oh, okay.

01:02:28.860 I guess I'm pretty.

01:02:29.660 I don't know.

01:02:30.000 I didn't, I didn't, um, my friends didn't emphasize it.

01:02:37.680 I, what, I didn't go to schools where, um, where there were sort of, I mean, if there

01:02:43.380 were, if there were mean girls, it was like, I don't know, everybody was just sort of kind

01:02:48.020 of mean to each other in that school way where you just like, like you said, you know, the

01:02:52.680 house you grew up in or something like that.

01:02:54.380 I don't know.

01:02:54.840 I guess I just didn't go to schools where there was like an emphasis on it.

01:02:58.240 Yeah, but you were in Hollywood.

01:03:00.480 Popular girls and stuff.

01:03:01.600 No, no.

01:03:01.960 See, it wasn't until, it wasn't until I got on a show that there was, so at 16, so I was

01:03:09.340 developing myself as a person, like all up until, I still did at 16, but it wasn't until

01:03:17.140 at 16 that it started being, it started getting, there started being a focus on, on my face.

01:03:25.600 Like, you know, Oh, Justine Bateman's gorgeous or she's so beautiful or whatever.

01:03:30.840 And I was like, Oh, okay.

01:03:32.420 I mean, I, I was just like, it didn't really, it was just like a, it seemed like this matter

01:03:40.260 of fact thing that they were, um, enlarging.

01:03:44.200 One of the reasons I, we talked on NBC when I was there and it was about your first book

01:03:49.040 and you were honest about what it's like when that starts to fade.

01:03:52.740 And I do think you would say now the fading was a blessing.

01:03:56.960 It wasn't enjoyable while it was happening.

01:03:59.160 And you realized maybe you couldn't get the reservations you used to be able to get, but

01:04:02.340 like net net, wouldn't you say, I don't know.

01:04:06.340 Would you say it's a blessing?

01:04:07.340 I'll tell you what's a blessing is my ability to, um, process the experience.

01:04:14.500 That's the blessing.

01:04:16.420 Yeah.

01:04:16.720 I mean, I say that in the book, like I say, like I have a privileged life.

01:04:21.480 The privilege I'm referring to is that process, being able to having those tools.

01:04:31.040 And that's one of the reasons I wrote that book is like through this explanation.

01:04:37.660 I mean, you know, that book fame was for a lot of reasons.

01:04:41.200 One of them was, you know, just sharing how I process the things.

01:04:46.160 And because I've had so much success with that particular method, I just wanted to like,

01:04:51.740 Hey, if this will help anyone else, you know, use it.

01:04:55.620 You're married.

01:04:56.500 Yes.

01:04:57.260 Yeah.

01:04:57.680 And you have two kids.

01:04:59.760 Yeah.

01:04:59.940 How old are they?

01:05:01.800 18 and 17.

01:05:03.680 And you have a daughter?

01:05:05.200 Yeah.

01:05:05.600 So with her, is your messaging kind of along the lines of what we've been talking about?

01:05:10.200 I think about it with my daughter, because I do think she's pretty.

01:05:12.960 And I think it's a compliment.

01:05:14.080 And I think my boys are beautiful too.

01:05:16.320 And I tell them as well.

01:05:17.560 So I try to keep it sort of equal and I try to not make it number one with my kid, you

01:05:21.760 know, my daughter, especially, but you know, sometimes just overwhelmed by the beauty of

01:05:25.560 your child's face.

01:05:26.480 And even if the kid's not that cute, you see it, right?

01:05:29.400 You see a beautiful face looking back at you.

01:05:31.940 So how did you balance trying to raise a daughter who wasn't too focused on this with what I assume

01:05:38.420 is your natural gravitation toward what you thought was a beautiful face?

01:05:41.680 I have a lot to say about that.

01:05:44.020 So let me truncate it or summarize it.

01:05:46.780 First of all, when I was a kid, when you were a kid, we had only the people in our world to compare

01:05:55.440 to, to compare to, or to be, to be compared to, right?

01:06:00.460 The people at your school.

01:06:01.580 And I think it's a little wider as you get older, right?

01:06:04.840 The people maybe in your town.

01:06:07.220 All right.

01:06:07.540 And then as you get older and you go out into the workforce and everything, then it's like

01:06:10.840 the people in your city or the people in your industry.

01:06:16.180 Okay.

01:06:16.400 And if you're in the, you know, entertainment business, then you got to, you know, you're

01:06:21.480 being compared with a lot more people.

01:06:23.260 But now a 13 year old who in the past would just be comparing herself to other people at

01:06:30.120 her junior high school or her middle school is now on Instagram comparing herself with,

01:06:36.860 and, you know, back then, okay, we had the fashion magazines, of course, but they were

01:06:40.180 removed from us.

01:06:41.580 They were, you know, there were, these were people who, you know, these women that were, 0.97

01:06:45.480 you know, lived in New York or Milan or Paris.

01:06:48.460 And they were in these photos that were so removed from our situations, even getting pictures

01:06:57.600 taken in front of the Taj Mahal or some, you know, nightclub in Berlin, or, I mean,

01:07:02.380 it was just like, it was so separate.

01:07:03.640 Or you knew it was a model.

01:07:05.460 You knew it was a model.

01:07:06.340 And it was a model.

01:07:07.400 And these were seriously models.

01:07:09.780 They weren't quote Instagram, like self, self-proclaimed Instagram models.

01:07:16.100 They were real models.

01:07:17.300 Like there was a, there was a, you know, there were a lot of, a lot of competition they

01:07:24.480 had to beat out to get that, that position. 0.98

01:07:26.620 They were beautiful for a living.

01:07:28.020 They were very specific.

01:07:29.540 Yeah.

01:07:30.020 Okay.

01:07:30.560 So now you're comparing yourself to everybody on Instagram.

01:07:33.760 And also with the internet, you're comparing yourself to all the pretty women that have ever 1.00

01:07:39.280 existed in all of time.

01:07:40.620 Like, you know, um, Ted Serrano's, uh, at, um, uh, Netflix, uh, he had, um, I think all

01:07:52.800 of programming at Netflix or I'm not sure it's position right now, but, um, he had a great

01:07:57.600 quote once he said, you know, it used to be that when you released a film, you were going

01:08:01.640 to compete just against the other films that were, that were out at the same time is now

01:08:07.720 you're competing with all films that have all the films that have ever been made.

01:08:13.040 Right.

01:08:13.860 So in the same, right.

01:08:15.460 You put a film out, it's like, well, people can choose from any, all the films that were

01:08:19.220 ever made.

01:08:19.880 And, you know, you're one of them.

01:08:21.760 And in the same way, that's, that's what we're doing with the look.

01:08:24.980 Okay.

01:08:25.300 So the first thing is I wanted her to be, I wanted, when she first started looking at

01:08:31.900 like Instagram and stuff like that, wanted to make it very clear to her.

01:08:35.760 Like at first she was like, how do all these women, um, how are they, how do they afford 1.00

01:08:40.740 to go to all these?

01:08:41.700 They must be really rich that they can go to all these places and take all these pictures

01:08:46.080 and be on all these yachts and all this.

01:08:47.900 And I was like, come sit on my lap.

01:08:50.740 Let me tell you a story about how these women are affording to go there. 1.00

01:08:55.000 So tell her things like that.

01:08:56.780 Tell her about the filters.

01:08:58.380 Tell her about like, you know, just outside this shot, you know, is this kind of, you

01:09:03.700 know, raggedy backyard that this woman has, you know, she's not really right. 1.00

01:09:08.840 It's staged.

01:09:09.680 So show, you know, making, you know, pop that bubble, you know, of, of all of that stuff.

01:09:15.320 And then just, and then the selfie after selfie, after selfie, after selfie, after

01:09:21.040 selfie, she, you know, she has said to me, like, I, I would say like, you know, uh, oh

01:09:29.440 my God, you know, why don't they just stop or whatever.

01:09:32.260 And then she'd go, she'd go, mommy, they're just insecure.

01:09:37.020 That's why they're doing that.

01:09:38.320 Cause they're insecure.

01:09:39.900 And I was like, and like, she was saying to me, like, you're being unkind because these

01:09:44.540 people are insecure.

01:09:45.240 And I was like, oh, you're right.

01:09:47.440 I mean, you're right for correcting me.

01:09:49.960 Like I am being unkind right now too.

01:09:51.720 So, so she, I don't know, she, she, she gets, and also like, I, I, I try to be very, um,

01:10:01.920 with both my kids, I try to be, um, I try to make a big, um, I try to focus on, make a

01:10:10.660 big deal about things that they've accomplished.

01:10:13.840 Things look, you, you come in, you're put in a bag, you're born, you're put in a bag.

01:10:18.360 It might be, uh, uh, a bag of Chinese descent.

01:10:22.940 It might be a very tall, darker skinned bag. 1.00

01:10:26.840 You might be a very short, pale skinned bag that's female. 1.00

01:10:31.960 I mean, you don't have any say you're, I mean, this is how it seems to me personally. 0.94

01:10:38.320 You're a spirit that gets put in a bag.

01:10:40.660 Okay.

01:10:40.980 So, so is any of that an accomplishment that you have, you know, looks that are deemed

01:10:49.240 quote, pretty in this society?

01:10:51.320 No, but, but the things that you set out to do that then you make happen, like that's

01:10:57.480 an accomplishment.

01:10:58.100 And that I feel like focusing on by people being rewarded for those things, I feel like

01:11:04.020 really build their sense of who they are as a person, what they can, um, make happen

01:11:11.340 as a person.

01:11:12.440 And I think it, it's a really good way to build their, their sense of foundation of a person.

01:11:21.700 You're awesome.

01:11:22.840 You do think differently.

01:11:24.300 You you're, you're not like anybody.

01:11:25.900 I know that's, it's a great line from, um, as good as it gets, you're not like anybody.

01:11:31.400 That's how I feel about you in a, in a great way.

01:11:34.200 Thank you for coming on.

01:11:36.100 Well, thank you.

01:11:37.060 And I, and I always appreciate your, um, you know, I know this is the second time we've,

01:11:41.820 we've done an interview and, and I just want to tell you, I, I, I really appreciate how,

01:11:46.720 um, prepared you are, how engaging you are to talk to how prepared you are with material.

01:11:53.520 And, um, that's not as common as you would think it should be from people who do this for

01:12:02.860 a living.

01:12:03.280 So I just want to pay you that compliment.

01:12:05.840 Cause, um, I appreciate that.

01:12:08.180 Well, thank you.

01:12:09.060 And let me, I mean, I prepare for everybody because I feel out of respect.

01:12:12.640 I, I want to, but some people are, you know, easier to do it with than others because their

01:12:18.580 stuff is really interesting or just speaks to me for whatever reason.

01:12:21.540 And you are definitely one of those people.

01:12:23.100 So I definitely recommend the book.

01:12:24.780 Everybody check it out.

01:12:25.940 It's called face one square foot of skin.

01:12:27.900 And then don't forget to go see Justine's new movie, Violet, Violet.

01:12:33.360 It's great to talk to you.

01:12:34.860 You too.

01:12:35.440 Coming up on our next episode, Dave Ramsey's here.

01:12:42.840 He's like one of the most popular personalities in America.

01:12:45.840 He's got some thoughts on dough, finances, the national debt, and how to dig yourself out

01:12:51.540 from a hell of a year.

01:12:52.560 Don't miss that.

01:12:54.600 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

01:12:56.760 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:13:01.240 The Megan Kelly show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures. 0.56

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 26, 2021

Justine Bateman on Parenting in the Age of Instagram, Beauty Standards for Men and Women, and Dealing with Critics ｜ Ep. 81

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