00:06:40.280Three hours is very short, which means they didn't really have a whole lot to talk about.
00:06:47.020They all probably were pretty much on the same page.
00:06:49.920We did learn today that there was a jury instruction.
00:06:54.000The judge gave the jury the option of choosing manslaughter versus murder.
00:06:59.600Now, I suppose it's possible we could hear a manslaughter verdict, although I think that's
00:07:04.400very unlikely. The evidence in this case did not show any sudden provocation by the alleged victim
00:07:12.560or anything like that that would be sufficient to warrant manslaughter. It didn't reach any of
00:07:17.940the other, I think, legal benchmarks for a manslaughter verdict. Sometimes judges give
00:07:22.940those when they are requested by the defense sort of out of an abundance of caution.
00:07:27.420But I seem to think that this quick verdict, combined with the fact that there are no real questions, none of the questions at all that we know of, tells me the jury was a cohesive unit.
00:07:40.300They are united. They are unanimous. And I think that it means that Carmelo Anthony is about to be convicted of first-degree murder and spend the rest of his life in prison.
00:07:50.280mark can you talk about the difference between manslaughter and murder and you know why it was
00:07:57.860significant that they added the manslaughter count as an option for the juror today for the jury yeah
00:08:02.760i i would have had them add that if i was representing him and i also wouldn't put him
00:08:06.340near the stand so i disagree with anybody who said that they should have put him on the witness stand
00:08:11.000he would have been eviscerated even if the verdict is adverse which i expected to be adverse
00:08:14.960you don't he would have been destroyed on the witness stand so he they needed to make the
00:08:20.540argument that this was self-defense and see if the jurors buy it and i don't think that they did
00:08:25.980the question is whether it should have been manslaughter versus murder and i think there's
00:08:31.040a strong argument to be made there murder we all know requires intent he wanted to kill him
00:08:36.000i read the statute in texas it appears it mirrors what we have here and that is
00:08:40.660a reckless act, an indifference to human life. So he did the act of stabbing the victim,
00:08:47.720but didn't intend necessarily to kill him. He didn't intend not to kill him. It was a reckless
00:08:53.620indifference. And I think that that's the strongest argument. Now, I don't know. You got a Texas jury
00:09:00.280and not many people are talking about this, but we do know that the law precludes either side
00:09:07.880from getting rid of jurors based upon the color of their skin. That's an issue so much so that
00:09:15.100the law had to be created to stop attorneys from doing this. In this particular case,
00:09:19.900the prosecutor struck the three potential black jurors. And so there are no black jurors seated
00:09:28.300at all, which I'm merely saying increases the chances of the prosecution getting what they want.
00:09:35.360Hmm. I mean, the question here is whether this jury is going to look at Carmelo Anthony
00:09:45.260at 17 years old and say, I'm not finding him guilty of murder. I'm not doing that.
00:09:52.400Manslaughter is a reasonable alternative. And I mean, I can see, not to be sexist about it,
00:09:58.720Phil, but I could see women, mothers in particular, possibly veering that way because he is so young
00:10:04.440and there's been no evidence that he's some sort of career criminal.
00:10:07.000Yeah, I actually had that in a case once where a jury reached a compromise verdict
00:10:12.620because there was the evidence when I was a prosecutor,
00:10:17.140the evidence of this person's guilt, it was an armed robbery case,
00:10:19.980but the evidence was overwhelming, and the defendants were all very young.
00:10:24.200In fact, this particular one we severed the trials was 17 years old,
00:10:28.440and a mother basically ran out of the jury room, fell to her knees,
00:10:34.240and started sobbing, saying that she felt so terrible about basically sending a teenage boy
00:10:41.100to prison. So yes, your point is valid. People think about the effect of their verdict. They're
00:10:48.200not supposed to actually know. In other words, the sentencing aspect is really not supposed to be
00:10:53.920part of the case in chief, but jurors are not stupid. They know what happens to people they
00:11:00.160convict of serious crimes like armed robbery and murder. So yeah, I mean, that could happen.
00:11:06.020I do think it's rare, Megan. I think that it's unlikely that there's going to be any of that
00:11:12.360sort of hesitation. I think that the jury is going to dismiss out of hand the manslaughter option.
00:11:20.000I think they're going to focus on all of the testimony. And look, there were witnesses just
00:11:24.780recently, as recently as yesterday, and I post about this on my X account, there were witnesses
00:11:29.080for the defense who, on cross-examination, admitted that Carmelo Anthony was in the wrong
00:11:36.620and he was the aggressor. So this whole thing, from beginning to end, when you take the-
00:11:41.500Yeah, the defense witnesses, just to reiterate.
00:11:43.280Yeah, the state's witnesses did a good job for the state, but the defense witnesses also did a
00:11:48.920good job for the state, because on cross-examination, a lot of times they just admitted
00:11:53.660that, yeah, Carmelo Anthony was in the wrong. And in other cases, the prosecutor did a good job of
00:12:00.460pointing out that the witnesses were not in a position physically to see the events that they
00:12:07.880were in court trying to testify for. So I honestly scratched my head wondering if maybe some of this
00:12:16.060money that was raised during the Give, Send, Go fundraiser. It's almost $700,000 now. It seems like
00:12:24.980maybe some of that money should have been spent perhaps on hiring additional attorneys or people
00:12:30.500who could go and investigate and interview these witnesses for the defense so that they would know
00:12:36.460what they were going to say in court. Because it seems to me like the defense team was entirely
00:12:41.720caught off guard by a lot of the testimony. And they can't change the facts. They just can't
00:12:47.980change the facts if they had a team of lawyers. I still don't know that the facts change. I don't
00:12:53.120disagree with either one of you that jurors, in spite of being instructed that sympathy should
00:12:57.080play no role, they absolutely do consider it. They know the difference between what first-degree
00:13:03.840murder would yield versus manslaughter, at least in concept. So they do consider that. It wouldn't
00:13:10.300surprise me if they immediately said manslaughter. And I asked the question to each of you. Okay. And
00:13:16.060I know Megan, you're pretty entrenched in that position, but you know, is there at least a
00:13:21.480possibility in both of your minds? And this is what I would tell the jury that when he stabbed
00:13:26.880one time, not repeatedly, not like in the neck area, not by announcing I'm going to kill you,
00:13:34.320which would clearly evidence what he's intending to do.
00:13:36.560But one jab, which again is criminal and I'm not excusing, but one jab, which happened
00:13:43.600to land in a really bad place, causing the death, whether he intended to kill him or
00:13:49.600was it a reaction after he was pushed?
00:14:03.000He was looking for a confrontation, and he showed up there with a knife in his bag, which also suggests he was there to have some sort of confrontation with someone.
00:14:36.600Yeah, I think that you're conceding my point.
00:14:39.080I think that if he didn't intend to kill him, that the act itself, which he should be held responsible for, he should be found guilty for sure of manslaughter and maybe even murder.
00:14:52.040But if he didn't intend to kill, but he intended to commit that act and that resulted in a death, then one would argue that that's reckless as a person.
00:15:01.920the standard. No, I think that's murder still, Mark. A reckless disregard for human life is
00:15:09.560enough. That's enough. And that's what he showed by shoving that knife into the heart.
00:15:14.500You have to presume that someone, the law actually says you have to presume that someone intends the
00:15:21.780consequences of their actions. That's a presumption. And so to my knowledge, there's nothing in this
00:15:27.260case that would overcome that presumption. So, you know, look, I don't think I can, I don't think
00:15:33.620I'm going to concede your point, Mark. I think that I can concede that that is a possibility.
00:15:39.160It may be, maybe he didn't intend to kill, but I think he did. I think he intended, I think it's,
00:15:44.840I'm certain that he intended to do the act and the law presumes that he intended the consequences
00:15:50.460of that act. So I don't think there's any way to put this square peg into this legal round hole
00:16:23.120The classic example is the husband walks in
00:16:25.380on the wife having sex with someone not him and does something to harm one or both of them like
00:16:32.560that's your incense it doesn't excuse it but sure that's a manslaughter that that's not what this
00:16:39.100was the guy showed up there by the way dave erenberg now joining us dave great to see you
00:16:43.080former palm beach i'm not gonna get much help with this prosecutor there's no way
00:16:47.140there's no heat of passion in in him showing up there phil
00:16:55.040with a knife in his bag, running around being provocative, saying, go ahead, lay hands on me,
00:17:00.580see what happens. And then when somebody does, shoving a knife in his heart.
00:17:04.760Yeah. And all that's true. And you can't go and instigate an altercation and claim that it is
00:17:12.480somehow self-defense. You can't instigate an altercation and escalate an altercation and
00:17:19.680then try to claim the benefit of a reduced charge because you were the instigator and you showed up
00:17:26.960with a knife. Whether it's legal to have that knife, by the way, in the state of Texas is not
00:17:31.520the point. I carry a weapon legally all the time. But if I use that weapon illegally to murder
00:17:37.240somebody, I'm still guilty of murder. So this whole thing about him legally possessing the knife
00:17:42.620is a red herring that you heard parroted by lots in the media, by the folks outside the courtroom
00:17:49.380and by the defense counsel. So that issue right there is just a complete red herring,
00:17:54.600but this is not manslaughter. Let's address the knife. It troubles me. I would like to know
00:18:00.640why the hell were you carrying that knife around with you? But what I won't do is what both I think
00:18:05.820of you are doing. And that is speculate that he had that knife there because he was looking to
00:18:11.360kill. I will tell you that I currently have a case where my client had a knife on him. And when he
00:18:17.080was put in a headlock by certain people he was forced to use his knife and the question was
00:18:21.780why did he have that knife and he happened to have that knife because he uses that knife for fishing
00:18:26.620and it was in his fishing bag and that's all absolute truth i don't know maybe he carries
00:18:32.380that knife with him all the time just in case because he's had issues or whatever i don't know
00:18:38.220but to say that he brought the knife there with the intent to plunge it into somebody's heart
00:18:43.320megan that is not supported by the evidence mark are you saying that carmelo anthony first of all
00:18:47.940no let me respond let me respond phil no i'm not silly boy come on first of all i i don't i don't
00:18:53.500have to prove that if i'm the prosecutor i do not have to prove that he showed up there with
00:18:56.500the knife with the intent to kill i don't have to prove that so i'm saying my argument is you
00:19:00.600could make the argument well you you okay fine let's let's stick to what the jury actually has
00:19:06.040to find in order to reach a murder conclusion of guilty and that does not require you showed up
00:19:11.340there with the intent to murder. My point in introducing that was as a prosecutor, I could
00:19:16.320make that case easily, very easily. I think he did go there, frankly, to kill that day. I do.
00:19:22.260I believe he showed up in the opposing team's tent. He was intentionally provocative. He dared
00:19:26.280them to lay hands on him. And I think this kid has a chip on his shoulder. We didn't get evidence
00:19:30.460because they didn't put him on the stand about why he's so fucking angry. Excuse me. But I think
00:19:35.280it's because he's got a chip on his shoulder because I've seen his family try to racialize
00:19:39.560this entire case without any evidence you're right about that and so this boy obviously grew
00:19:45.480up in that family and i'll bet you he's got a fair amount of racial grievance on his shoulders too
00:19:49.920yeah and i also bet you mark because we haven't been told because they keep juvie records
00:19:54.380sealed but i'll bet you there is something in his past that we just didn't get to know about
00:19:59.140because he was a minor so to keep it intellectually honest i'll concede you may be right but what also
00:20:05.080may be right is he didn't show up to kill he showed up to run a track meet and it rained and
00:20:10.400he was looking for a place to shield himself from the rain and he saw someone that he recognized he
00:20:15.760goes under that tent and then all of a sudden the alleged victim says to him things that he found
00:20:22.600offensive i'm not justifying his actions so keep the hate mail i'm merely saying that it could be
00:20:28.840consistent with then he gets hit or pushed as it was testified to and then he reacts at a minimum
00:20:36.540manslaughter maybe murder but why not manslaughter that's all i'm saying dave i'm sure you're not
00:20:42.300going to help me here when you bring in dave but well dave that's all i mean you dave you know as
00:20:48.180well as i do as well as mark does and phil that uh even if everything mark just said is true in
00:20:54.820that last hypothetical, it's still not manslaughter. You cannot respond to someone laying
00:21:00.820hands on you, literally just laying hands on you, even if it were a push, which is the best
00:21:06.480evidence they had. The most aggressive witness for the defense said he shoved him. Yeah. You
00:21:12.520cannot respond to a shove with deadly force. I don't disagree, by the way. Period. I don't
00:21:15.960disagree. So how is it manslaughter then? I mean, Megan is right. Manslaughter is reserved for
00:21:21.540things where you catch your wife in bed with another man and it's extreme emotional distress.
00:21:28.260This is not extreme emotional distress. This is a pushing under a tent during the rain and you
00:21:33.960pull out a knife and then kill someone is murder. It's not manslaughter. Now, look, if you want to
00:21:39.920blame people, blame the defendant and his lawyer because I've never seen, and Mark, maybe you can
00:21:45.280correct me on this one, I've never seen a claim of self-defense where the defense lawyer doesn't
00:21:51.080put on the defendant under the stand. I mean, it's like 101. You have to put the defendant on
00:21:56.240the stand to say that, yes, I was in reasonable fear of my life. He didn't do that. Yeah. I don't
00:22:01.460disagree with you. And by the way, I'm pulling it up. I'm not crazy. I read the statute. Okay.
00:22:06.160So the manslaughter is defined in Texas. A person commits manslaughter if he or she
00:22:12.480recklessly causes the death of another individual. Was he not reckless as he plunged that knife
00:22:21.600into an area on this boy after being shoved? Could the jurors make that finding? I think they can.
00:22:28.720And reckless means the person was aware of, but consciously disregarded a substantial
00:22:34.640and unjustifiable risk that death could occur he's not an expert in stabbing and killing people
00:22:42.820he stabbed this kid and it happened to kill him could be the argument so it doesn't take an expert
00:22:48.980to know where someone's heart is i mean let's be honest that could be he didn't he didn't
00:22:54.800well the testimony was his stomach in his leg in his arm go ahead he had the knife open in the bag
00:23:01.700and his hand was in the bag, you know, and this was before any alleged putting on of hands occurred.
00:23:08.800And so, look, I appreciate, always appreciate the zealous advocacy and the arguments,
00:23:17.500the creative arguments of my colleagues and of my friends and my lawyers who are my buddies around
00:23:22.520the world, including Mark and Dave. But I think that as creative as that argument is, and maybe
00:23:30.200it's right. Maybe that would have been the only thing you could have argued to the jury. And
00:23:33.940sometimes as a defense lawyer, you have to just argue the best thing that you have, even when it
00:23:39.360sucks. And I just think that the facts of this case were terrible for the defense. I would be
00:23:45.100curious to know if there was ever any contemplation of there being any kind of plea deal. It seems
00:23:50.060like no. It seems like there was never a plea deal that was offered. I don't know if the defense even
00:23:54.580asked for one. But in any event, I'd like to say that I feel like maybe the defense team did the
00:24:01.360best they could out of what they had. But to be honest, what I saw was lawyers that were maybe
00:24:08.200not quite as prepared as they needed to be, because as I keep going back to this, they just
00:24:12.940seem to not have prepared their witnesses. It seems like they didn't even talk to them very
00:24:19.940much ahead of time or if they did it maybe they forgot what they were going to say because there's
00:24:24.820so many things that happened on the witness stand that just seem inconsistent with um what you would
00:24:31.180what you would have expected out of this defense team so um anyway phil let me show you um sound
00:24:36.880bite 12 this is court tv's cody thomas describing the prosecutors versus the defense when it came
00:24:44.840to the witnesses and witness prep. Listen here, Sat 12. And then the defense began their case
00:24:50.560Saturday afternoon with three witnesses. Of course, there was a couple of students that
00:24:54.700they called. One thing I thought stood out then, Matt, on this Saturday session was that one of
00:24:59.040these students, the defense attorney, clearly stated that they had not spoken before. He got
00:25:03.620up there and he asked him, you know, we've only spoken for two minutes right here in the hallway
00:25:06.920before we came in. So there was no witness prep. And we know that's a huge factor that goes into
00:25:11.220trials that we cover here at Court TV. And he's asking this kid questions to which the
00:25:15.620kid kind of doesn't really have answers to or is kind of negating the narrative that
00:25:19.220the defense is trying to go down. And then once the prosecution gets up there and cross
00:25:22.740examination, the prosecution says, we've talked for more than 10 minutes. In fact,
00:25:26.900I was texting your father last night, which would have been Friday night.
00:25:29.620So that was interesting to me that the prosecution seemed to have a better
00:25:32.820relationship with this defense witness. Yeah, that's insane.
00:25:36.900Yeah, that's what we talked about on the MK True Crime Show today.
00:25:40.960That is malpractice, and that would cause jurors to quickly find somebody guilty of the main charge rather than consider any alternative when an attorney is that inept and doesn't know what the witness is going to do and how they're going to be eviscerated.
00:25:56.820I was horrible. And folks, if you hadn't checked it out, Dave and I got into this very discussion
00:26:03.420on today's episode of the MK True Crime Show. And I'm sure we'll come back to it as well once we
00:26:10.980know what the verdict is. And by the way. Just to interrupt you quickly, Phil, just to interrupt
00:26:14.080you quickly, forgive me. The jurors are entering the courtroom right now. Oh, my. Oh, my. And
00:26:18.460have you seen the crowds going outside the court? It's getting heated outside the courtroom, too.
00:26:23.120out in the you know it's this they the the new black panthers are there was there any which is
00:26:29.220never helpful was there any testimony at all that race ever came into play in terms of epithet
00:26:36.200nothing right no no it's the whole thing i mean there are some derelicts on the internet who have
00:26:44.400introduced race but the whole thing has been driven by this dominique alexander who is the
00:26:49.360spokesperson for the Carmelo Anthony family who continues to try to racialize this case,
00:26:55.920try to say that Austin Metcalfe was a white supremacist, which is a defamatory lie.
00:27:01.860There is zero evidence of that. He just keeps injecting this because he thinks he's going to
00:27:06.960nullify the jury and the verdict. And it hasn't, you know, so far that hasn't caught hold and
00:27:12.500there's been zero evidence of it in court. Here he is. This guy's got a long history of his own
00:27:17.540involving some very questionable behavior with young children and hurting them.
00:27:22.960We'll get into it at another time, but that's their family spokesperson.
00:28:02.760Yeah, I was just talking about exactly what you're seeing outside the courthouse.
00:28:07.300Just from a 10,000-foot level, let me just say it makes me sad as a lawyer and someone who's been a criminal justice professional now for about 40 years to see our justice system breaking down like this to this faction versus that faction, this racial group versus that racial group.
00:28:30.560It should be determined by what happens inside the courtroom with competent, reliable evidence.
00:28:36.440We have witnesses that are white. We have witnesses that are black. You know, the fact that you've got a jury made up of 12 white individuals is is not doesn't surprise me because it's a majority white jurisdiction, as I understand it.
00:28:53.880And you're not entitled to a jury that looks like you. You're entitled to a representative cross section of the community.
00:29:00.560And by the way, there were plenty of minorities.
00:29:56.520There just wasn't Dave Aaron. This I mean, this is as open and shut as they come.
00:30:01.740This is. And it was the right verdict, because when you go to a track meet, you don't end up you shouldn't end up in a body bag.
00:30:08.300I mean, this is what happened to the days when you have school fights and now everyone brings a weapon and it's just ridiculous.
00:30:14.440And one thing that Phil said that just want to clarify, I don't think the jury was all white in traditional sense.
00:30:19.960Apparently, there were several Asian jurors. And so there were no black members of the jury.
00:30:23.840And although that to me is unfortunate because it means that this verdict will not be accepted the way that it should, but as far as on appeal, I don't expect that to be a subject of appeal to be overturned because, as Phil correctly says, there's no quota how many people of different races you have to have on a jury as long as the procedures were fair, meaning the judge did the right things and everyone, the process played out.
00:30:48.220That's all. But as far as the evidence, the evidence was just overwhelming. I mean, the fact that the defendant didn't even take the stand tells you enough, that they knew that the evidence was going to cook him if he did take the stand, too.
00:31:00.060And they thought they would just roll the dice on just putting the prosecutors to their burden of proof. Well, prosecutors got a quick guilty verdict.
00:31:06.900The issue for me, Carmelo Anthony found guilty. For those of you just joining us, Carmelo Anthony, who was 17 years old when he committed this crime, plunging a knife into the chest of 17 year old Austin Metcalf for honestly, no reason.
00:31:20.840It was they weren't even having a fight. It was a minor dispute over whether Carmelo should have been in that tent. And just FYI, there are 12 jurors plus six alternates.
00:31:31.020We don't know exactly which one of these made the jury and which ones are the alternates,
00:31:34.480but it's a white woman in her 40s, white man in his 40s, white man in his 20s or 30s, white woman.
00:38:31.640I mean, like as a career prosecutor, Dave, when the defendant was a minor at the time of the crime, does a judge typically more often have some sympathy for the defendant?
00:38:45.860I mean, I don't want to call him a kid because he's not.
00:39:13.180She she killed two people and it was shown to be intentional.
00:39:16.640But because she was 17, she was given 15 years to life, and it was concurrent for the two deaths, which meant that she could conceivably get parole after 15 years, which is way too light.
00:39:29.780But here you're talking about one death that was awful, and I think you have a different judge, though, a much tougher judge, and I think he's going to throw the book at him.
00:39:37.020And, yes, it could be 5 to 99 or life with the possibility of parole at some point, but I think it's going to be up on the high digits perhaps.
00:39:45.940I could see 50 years here. I could see that. Yeah, I could see that. I could this. Why are you making that face? Why? Megan, Megan, Megan, Megan. Come on. First of all, it was horrible what he did. Let's make that very, very clear. I'm not in any way. But let's compare this to other cases. He's 17 years old. The facts and circumstances are a little unusual.
00:40:11.120Doesn't everybody concede that on this panel for totally just looking at it from a mitigation perspective?
00:40:18.360Shouldn't he be treated a little differently than some other cases?
00:40:36.960His parents are going to constantly grieve him.
00:40:38.660Oh, and by the way, I mean, not for nothing, and this isn't admissible, but the parents of Austin Metcalf tried to reach out to the family of Carmelo Anthony.
00:41:07.000He wanted to hear what they had to say. And this cretin, Dominique Alexander, shamed him trying to say he had done something like disrespectful. His son was dead. It was just so wrong. Like they've been treated so wrong, the Metcalfs, by the Anthony's from the start.
00:41:27.200And if I were the judge, he may not be able to consider any of that, but he may be aware of just how disrespectful the whole family has been, soup to nuts of this poor Metcalf family.
00:41:38.680And all I can think of is Hunter Metcalf, who's probably sitting in that courtroom right now, the identical twin, who held his dying brothers in his arms and wailed, I can't do this.
00:42:18.260To your point about should he be treated differently because of his age,
00:42:20.920Well, I would submit that Texas law already treats him differently because if he gets the life sentence that I think he's going to get, he has to be eligible for parole.
00:42:31.420So life without parole is off the table.
00:42:34.380If he were an older person, then that would have been on the table.
00:42:37.500So the law already takes a lot of this into account, and it gives the judge a lot of sort of discretion here.
00:42:43.400And so his age is already kind of factored into this.
00:42:46.860So the judge is going to make the decision based on the facts of this case and what's fair and what's just.
00:42:52.060So, Phil, you're saying life without parole or anything without parole, that's not an option because he was a minor when he came into the crime.
00:43:00.160Well, Texas law generally allows that an inmate has to serve at least half the sentence or 30 calendar years, whichever is less, before they're eligible for parole.
00:43:08.820So if he gets the 50 years, like I can imagine, he'd be eligible for parole in 25.
00:43:13.720But because of the case law, yes, because he was 17 as a juvenile, he won't get life without parole.
00:43:26.660Carmelo Anthony and his mother began to sob after the verdict was read to the courtroom.
00:43:30.780Judge John R. Roach asked if the court needed to take a break.
00:43:34.560Anthony's lawyer asked if he could take him somewhere before the judge reminded him that he is now guilty and in the custody of the sheriff's office.
00:44:06.920The jury will return, and we will begin the sentencing part of the trial now, says—this is from inside the courtroom reported by—I'm not sure who she reports for.
00:44:23.300Oh, she's with the Daily Mail, Marianne Martinez.
00:44:50.220So look, to your – you're reading, you're checking X or you're checking the internet, and you're checking to see what the reporters who are there in the courthouse and who are on the scene are reporting.
00:45:01.240this i think makes the case for live streaming of virtually all trials okay in the united states
00:45:09.260there's no reason that i can think of no good reason not to have live streamed this not to
00:45:14.960have allowed the public inside the courtroom to see this is a highly controversial case whether
00:45:21.280it needs to be or not it is and so i think that the better plan the better idea would be to have
00:45:28.320cameras in the courtroom, to have people able to watch and see for ourselves in real time what's
00:45:34.800happening. That way, we're not left to the descriptions given to us by journalists, which
00:45:40.740a lot of them are doing a great job, but they may not always be accurate. We need to be able to see
00:45:45.020in real time what's happening, but in particular, we need to see the evidence. We need to hear
00:45:50.520this witness testimony. The people outside that courthouse need to hear the witness testimony
00:45:56.740because otherwise, false narratives take hold, media narratives take hold, and the whole thing
00:46:03.400just spins out of control. If you have cameras in the courtroom, then we can eliminate most,
00:46:11.000if not all, of that nonsense, and we can take the public inside and see what we say on our show,
00:46:18.180that sunlight is the best disinfectant, okay, when it comes to these things, and it's time
00:46:22.680for all courts to go ahead and get into the 21st century and allow us to see what happens in their
00:46:28.440courtrooms um this just in carmelo anthony's mother is taking the stand now jesus as the
00:46:36.880sentencing phase of his murder trial i can't imagine defense waived opening statements
00:46:41.840mark i can't either because i'm thinking of first and foremost i'm thinking um god of everybody my
00:46:47.620head spinning. But as a lawyer, you put so much energy into a case. And then all of a sudden,
00:46:55.060the jurors give the worst news possible to you. Now, I don't know if the lawyers were expecting
00:47:00.300it. But at a minimum, you're putting all that energy towards trying to get an acquittal.
00:47:05.860Alternatively, you're thinking, you know, manslaughter. And then all of a sudden,
00:47:10.320boom, the worst case scenario. And now you have to get up and now fight for his life.
00:47:14.600it is insane i i just they would never do that here i've never heard of anything like that
00:47:21.180it's just cruel you're in florida i know you know megan just so the audience knows it is
00:47:26.800interesting that in texas that the defendant before trial has the right to elect whether
00:47:30.740they want a judge or a jury to impose a sentence so i was under the assumption that it's the judge
00:47:35.220that decides the sentence i think it's a smart move for the defense to ask the jury to do it i
00:47:40.100I think we'll get a better sentence by the jury than by this real tough judge.
00:47:44.800And that's why they're going forward right now.
00:47:49.620Because why else would they have called the jury back in and be taking witness testimony, you know, mitigation and so on from the mother that the jury must must be must have the decision in its hands?
00:48:02.500Again, we're not that familiar with Texas state criminal procedure, but we're trying to read what we the people we trust and get and glean what's happening.
00:48:09.980That's what we believe is happening, that they've elected to have the jury decide the sentence, that the mother's back on the stand or on the stand.
00:48:20.140You know, I went to law school in Texas and I had actually there was a time where it was top of my mind that Texas had the option for jury sentencing.
00:48:29.520It had escaped me. And like Dave, I was just assuming it was going to be the judge.
00:48:33.260but it does make sense for the defense to seek jury sentencing because to the extent there may
00:48:40.080have been no disagreements on guilt or innocence. Now you're going to have to have everybody with
00:48:46.540maybe a different point of view on what's the appropriate sentence now that we know that he's
00:48:52.000guilty of the crime. And so it could be a while. I don't know that you're going to see a three-hour
00:48:56.960verdict on sentencing okay but now listen to this fox dallas reporting that carmelo's mother was
00:49:05.080asked if carmelo regrets his behavior she said yes he does regret it please have mercy on my son
00:49:12.980she's saying he's remorseful she's the only witness the defense plans to call that just
00:49:18.420what okay put him on the stand okay no no no listen every single person my client ever said
00:49:25.780god bless you too i'd consider calling okay his life is on the line you got one person the mom
00:49:32.600that's all you got not a singer teacher not the coach not nobody friends family you've got to put
00:49:39.940people on there to humanize him also you could put him on the stand in this case i know a lot
00:49:45.620of times you don't because you don't want to ruin the appeal but here remember it's not a question
00:49:49.480whether he did it we know he did it the question is whether it was self-defense he could go out
00:49:53.700there and say i regret everything that happened i wish it hadn't happened and that won't hurt his
00:49:57.720appeal right but i think it shows he can't be cross-examined dave yes yes and that's why he
00:50:02.640won't that's why i won't do it but at this point you don't want to do it all right no he wouldn't
00:50:06.900have he won't he cannot capture the right effect even if he feels it even if he sleeps at night
00:50:12.840and he cries himself to sleep every night which may or may not be the case there's no way on the
00:50:17.740stand, you can count on him connecting to what he did, the life that he took and the impact that it
00:50:24.740had on the family, it would be so difficult. And so any attempt up there would undermine what the
00:50:30.440jury, as a defense lawyer, you're trying to go for to get the jury to feel. You can't put them
00:50:35.720up there. You can't. I mean, I'm sure that these, I was reading you the list of the people on the
00:50:40.540jury. There are men and there are women. I am sure that they will be moved by his mother begging
00:50:47.580for mercy but austin metcalf's mother is probably going to take as she should yes yes and that i
00:50:55.980mean this is texas guys you know it's texas we are not in san francisco we're with the most leftist
00:51:04.380jurors texas justice i learned that's a hard way i took a case in lubbock and i ran the facts by
00:51:11.660people in the community they all said they would give my client life and then they said they'd
00:51:16.240give me time for representing him yeah that's what i learned those are my people yes yes i was
00:51:24.000meant to live there um yeah so that's the problem is they're gonna undoubtedly fail
00:51:31.240hear from austin's parents one or both of them and and maybe maybe from sweet hunter
00:51:37.600his identical twin oh boy think of the power of that he looks exactly like him oh my goodness
00:51:44.420Yeah, it's almost like hearing from beyond the grave.
00:51:48.300Oh, my gosh, that's going to be crazy.
00:51:50.260It's not a good – I mean, that's what I would do.
00:51:52.500It's not good for – it doesn't bode well for Carmelo Anthony.
00:51:56.480This jury may not give him life if it's up to them,
00:51:59.460but he's going – I think we can all agree that he's going to be in a Texas prison
00:52:06.680for the foreseeable future, if not all of his life, certainly most of it.
00:52:12.000It's what a sad, sad, tragic case all the way around.
00:52:37.880in trial you're limited on what you're allowed to say right you can call the mother up for
00:52:44.260to identify to to do certain things but she can't go all out on what the loss means because then
00:52:51.240you're appealing to sympathy sentencing that's exactly what it's for she should be up there
00:52:56.700family members should be up there explaining what the loss meant i can't imagine why they're not
00:53:01.140doing it right i don't i genuinely don't get why they wouldn't put one of the metcalfs on the
00:53:06.640Maybe they're exhausted. I mean, this has been an emotionally draining trial. And now you got to go and do the penalty phase right away. I don't know. They should she should have had it lined up. And I'm sure maybe they just decided they put up one witness on the defense side and let it just play out. But I think, yes, you should put up the twin. I mean, you got to go for what the family wants, which is clearly they want this guy to be in prison as long as possible. So how do you leave money on the table like that? I think they should put up more.
00:53:34.900I know. I mean, I know it's all relatively recent, but all I can think is of the Idaho case, the Idaho four. It's like that murder was as gruesome as they come. But the family members did take the stand. They were there during the penalty phase. We talked about it at the time.
00:53:57.760And, you know, I feel like the family probably would have done its duty and spoken on behalf of Austin.
00:54:05.980Maybe the prosecution said there's no need.
00:54:12.320Or maybe they just don't want to have a hand in it.
00:54:14.380You know, remember, Erica Kirk was asked about whether she wanted this to be a death penalty case.
00:54:22.100It is a death penalty case against Tyler Robinson.
00:54:23.980And she said, I don't want to weigh in on that because as a Christian woman, she just didn't want to have a hand in possibly leading somebody to their death.
00:54:33.400And that, you know, that could also, death penalty is not on the table here, but it's possible the family just didn't even want to have a role in the penalty phase and just wanted the justice to play out as it is now.
00:54:44.540punishment phase just ended after one witness, two questions from the defense, one from the
00:54:50.480prosecution. And now the judge is working on the jury charge. And then I guess the jury's got to
00:54:57.000go back into the deliberation room and come up with a number. First, it was coming up with a
00:55:02.500guilt or an innocence, and now it's going to have to be coming up with a number. I don't know.
00:55:07.500Have you guys ever seen a jury come to a decision on sentencing before? And do you think we have,
00:55:13.780do we have anything to go on as to whether they generally go hard or easy i got nothing i've never
00:55:19.920seen a jury do it i've seen juries recommend like in death penalty cases they could recommend but
00:55:24.740it's a judge's decision ultimately but this is weird where the jury comes up with the sentence
00:55:30.360and the judge doesn't play a role and what if they're divided so the jury charge is going to
00:55:34.800say things like you know um whatever your enlightened conscious you know leads you to
01:00:55.320That's what she's suggesting, that they didn't give him a fair trial because he's black and
01:00:59.600they're white, which is just so outrageous and unfounded.
01:01:02.600And that's straight out of the Dominique Alexander playbook, who is the spokesperson for the Anthony family.
01:01:10.840And this is the poison he's been injecting into the bloodstream of Frisco and hoping that someone who thought, as he and this woman do, would make it onto the jury.
01:01:25.160And unfortunately for him, they ran a very tight process and they weeded out those people.
01:01:29.980They weeded out people who would have allowed race to dictate their verdict.
01:01:35.220And you can see she's very upset about it.
01:01:38.160In fact, what they did was they allowed the facts and the law to dictate their verdict.
01:01:42.800And that's how we wound up with a guilty on murder, which is exactly what Carmelo Anthony committed and what he deserved.
01:01:51.100Back on the elements of the case, we did pull the statutes and stand by.
01:01:59.400murder is an offense. Okay. You've got to prove, uh, that the person, okay, actually I lost it,
01:02:08.920but it's knowingly or intentionally. Hold on. I'll find it. There's so many texts from my team.
01:02:14.240Here it is. Person commits an offense of murder. If the person intentionally or knowingly causes
01:02:21.520the causes the death of an individual, or if they intend to cause serious bodily injury
01:09:55.320But I can't help but think that they wanted to influence the jury and wanted the jury to be walking past folks every day to somehow think that this was racially motivated when it wasn't.
01:10:07.720Mm hmm. They're they're the only ones who injected race into this case, them. And honestly, it's why I'm not convinced that race wasn't a motive in this case on their son's part.
01:10:19.480I'm not not on Austin Metcalfe's part. Right. I'm not either. And I'm not I'm not convinced that it wasn't something in the back of their head thinking I can use this as an excuse.
01:10:28.540You know, this will go along with my self-defense claim, you know, something like that.
01:10:33.320I can't help but think that that was somewhere in the back of their head yeah um it just I there's
01:10:38.720no way the parents are full of this level of racial grievance and the son isn't no I don't
01:10:44.160believe that and he obviously has a hair trigger which also is possibly born of racial grievance
01:10:52.520so I just like I have no tolerance for this and I I think that that's the only witness they put
01:10:58.780on that stand, the mother saying as little as she did, because let's face it, in all likelihood,
01:11:05.000that's all there was. They probably didn't have some Cub Scout leader or other person who could
01:11:09.920wax poetic about the virtues of Carmelo Anthony. They didn't. And I'll tell you, Megan, it was
01:11:15.320really surprising to me that they did not put Carmelo Anthony actually on the stand. In a
01:11:20.120self-defense case, that absolutely shocked me. I mean, he doesn't have prior convictions. So
01:11:25.400usually if you don't put your client on the stand, it's because they can't honestly say they didn't
01:11:30.340do it. They have prior convictions. They have something they want to hide. Or you're concerned
01:11:34.480that they're going to lose their temper under cross-examination. And I can't help but think
01:11:38.900that it had to be that last one. It had to be that they were so nervous that he was going to
01:11:42.780lose his temper during cross-examination and show the jury that violent streak and that they were
01:11:48.700afraid of that. Or else why would they not have put him on the stand? Yes, I totally agree with
01:11:54.240you. He must not have been a sympathetic witness at all. If he couldn't even take the stand to
01:11:59.760express that he regretted murdering Austin. I like and that he was apparently he wasn't able to
01:12:07.900sell it. We needed to hear that he was scared. We needed to hear we needed to see the jury needed
01:12:13.300to see that fear. And that was the only thing that would have could have potentially saved him
01:12:18.700if they actually saw that fear, if it existed. But clearly it didn't exist.
01:12:22.160Yeah. Now I want to bring in a first time guest on the case. Ashley stays with us, who has covered this case very closely. His name is Imran Ansari, and he's a law partner of our pal, Arthur Idala. Imran, great to see you.
01:12:37.120Your thoughts on the breaking news here that it's a guilty verdict, it's on murder, and they're already going to the penalty phase with the defense presenting one witness only, Carmelo Anthony's mother, and then both sides resting and giving the case back to the jury to come up with a sentence.
01:12:52.460Yeah, Megan, I'm not surprised at this verdict. And he had swift justice there, right? They were deliberating for maybe three hours or so when they came back with this verdict. And to Ashley's point, when you have a justification defense, a self-defense defense, you have to put the defendant on the stand.
01:13:13.480The jury needs to step in his or her shoes, needs to get in their mind and have to appreciate what they saw with their words.
01:13:23.280If you're going to put that defense out there and not put the defendant on the stand, you might as well take that justification, affirmative defense, and not put it out before that jury.
01:13:33.260And that's what they did here because there really was no defense here.
01:13:36.720And if you took the facts, you heard the witnesses and how they testified about what they saw.
01:13:42.860Really, how would they craft a justification defense?
01:13:46.980And I think if he took the stand, it would have just been all the more worse in terms of now, at least they could try to mitigate the sentencing phase.
01:13:55.140And if he took that stand, the cross-examination, some of his testimony, they may have not even been able to do that at the sentencing phase.
01:14:02.660So I'm not surprised at the verdict, and I am not surprised at the time that the jury took to render this verdict.
01:14:09.920You know, I have to say, I thought that the defense lawyer's performance was so abysmal.
01:14:18.060It occurred to me, is he intentionally trying to throw this case because there's no defense and get him an ineffective assistance of counsel appellate ground?
01:14:26.520I really did ask myself that. And then I remembered that that doesn't work if the case is open and shut against the client. Like you have to go back in. So now that he's convicted and if he wants to file an appeal, which they always do, he'll have to say ineffective assistant of counsel.
01:14:45.900And, Ashley, he'll have to then prove to the court that an effective lawyer could have gotten him off.
01:14:57.500And I think he would have a really hard time going over that hurdle to prove that the result.
01:15:01.860Essentially, he would have to prove on ineffective that the result would have been different if he had a different lawyer, not just, you know, the lawyer maybe made some mistakes.
01:15:08.920But, you know, as I've watched this case, I was thinking about the defense lawyer and thinking, I wonder if he's tanking it or I wonder if his hands are tied. And those are very different things for defense lawyer. When our hands are tied, it's because mom's in the room and she's saying, you know, you be a proud whatever. You're you're you know, you're innocent. You're this. You're wonderful. You're my baby. Don't take a plea. Don't listen to the advice of counsel.
01:15:33.780you know we're going to put forward this defense and so we as defense lawyers control certain
01:15:38.440aspects of the case but we don't control everything and so the decision to testify for example that is
01:15:43.120up to the client that is up to the defendant and when you have a 17 year old his parents were
01:15:46.820probably involved in that decision so I can't force my client to do that and also things like
01:15:51.480manslaughter for example when I saw the judge give that manslaughter instruction I thought you
01:15:56.340know a really good move here would be for Anthony to have testified and told them that this was an
01:16:03.140accident, I feel awful, and tried for that manslaughter, you know, tried for something
01:16:07.160in the middle, because that could have saved a lot of his life. I mean, he definitely would
01:16:10.940have spent many years in prison, but he would have gotten out. And I can't help but think
01:16:14.580that that defense lawyer probably wanted that for his client, and is probably upset that,
01:16:20.680you know, maybe the parents influenced him, maybe society influenced him, who knows who
01:16:24.220influenced him, but that he wasn't really making the right decision, because he's 17.
01:16:28.520What we know from the Daily Mail is that these parents, in addition to playing the race card through their spokesperson and attacking Jeff Metcalf as the villain, that they took the money they got from Give, Send, Go and reportedly used it on this very nice mansion where they moved their family to.
01:16:51.060They claimed it was a safety issue. I don't I don't think you have to move into a mansion in order to ensure safety, but that they did still have enough to hire this lawyer.
01:17:01.380This is this guy was legal aid. He was a public defender, but he's not now. He's in private practice.
01:17:06.340So I assume they are paying him a private practice fee. But the parents, forgive me, didn't seem like their child's welfare was really their number one concern, given that behavior.
01:17:18.200Right. And absolutely, Megan. And that would be the real injustice here, right? Not looking at this case from a standpoint, from a defendant's standpoint, where we maybe embrace. And Ashley, you were mentioning that. You embrace the weaknesses in the case. You concede certain things in order to get the jury, if they're going to convict and the writing is on the wall, to convict on a lesser count. And that manslaughter count was there for that jury, but they didn't pivot for that.
01:17:44.960And if the parents saw this case as a means to perhaps make some money, to generate some sort of issue out there that wasn't really an issue in this particular case, get publicity, then, you know, that's the real injustice.
01:18:01.900Because the decisions in this case perhaps were not even being made by that young man in the defendant's chair, who perhaps would have a chance at getting out at a reasonable age, you know, if that manslaughter was the one and the sentencing had mitigation.
01:18:17.640But no, this was turned into an issue that it perhaps should not have been.
01:18:22.300And the real driving force behind that, we don't know it, but it could be the parents.
01:18:26.480And that would be a real injustice for that defendant and also for the family of the victim,
01:18:31.280because now it was brought into a light where it shouldn't have been.
01:18:35.000This was a killing that was without justification.
01:18:39.520The jury saw what the evidence really told.
01:18:42.800And now, unfortunately, there's a lot of loss of life here, right?
01:18:45.600You have a loss of life in the Metcalf side, and then you have this young man who's going to probably spend the rest of his life potentially behind bars if they're not able to get some mitigation at this late standpoint in the sentencing phase.
01:18:59.660Yeah, I feel like these parents, Ashley, they they thought that race card was going to work.
01:19:08.600They probably thought they'd wind up with some black jurors who feel the way they do.
01:19:14.420Not normal black jurors who see justice like we all do, but ones who are like guided by racial identity.
01:19:23.220Like that woman who soundbite we ran yesterday who said we take care of our own.
01:19:27.720And they wound up not getting that. And I'm sure they're quite disappointed. Here is just some
01:19:34.020color from outside of the courthouse. This person is a Carmelo Anthony supporter. And
01:19:39.260listen to the messaging just now. What do you want us to do? What do you want us to do at this point?
01:19:46.200What? I'm lost for it. I don't know what to do. I got five boys. I don't know. I ain't got nothing
01:19:51.940to tell them no more. You can't walk away no more. Rest in peace, Trayvon Martin. Let me ask you
01:19:57.320this right now. Okay, good. Got cut off in an awkward place there. That's via Hey JB show on
01:20:05.000WFLA, which is on Nextar. And by the way, our earlier soundbite was from Nick Sorter, the one
01:20:10.960where we showed the Black Panther claiming the country's racist and the court is racist, and this
01:20:15.980is a war. So yeah, what am I going to tell my kids? Why don't you tell your kids not to stab
01:20:23.660somebody in the heart over a track meet tent. Right. And then you'll be fine. I mean, and don't
01:20:30.900don't bring a knife in the first place. Don't bring a weapon. You don't need a weapon. You
01:20:34.480shouldn't have a weapon there. I can't help but notice the absence, though, of any character
01:20:40.700witnesses, which I thought was really interesting in a self-defense case. You know, we talked a few
01:20:44.920minutes ago about how the fact that he didn't testify himself, but the fact that there were
01:20:48.280no character witnesses. This is 17 year old kid. Is there not a guidance counselor at that school?
01:20:53.140is there not an assistant principal that he's, is he not in a club? Is he not, does his track
01:20:57.280coach not know him and be able to testify on his behalf? That was really interesting to me,
01:21:01.760because if you have an affirmative defense like self-defense, unless there's bad character that
01:21:06.500you don't want to open the door to, you're going to put up a character defense. And so the only
01:21:10.640reason that I can imagine that the teachers weren't testifying, the guidance counselors
01:21:14.620weren't testifying, the church, you know, the pastor wasn't testifying, is that they were
01:21:18.680worried about opening the door to other acts of violence. And we haven't heard that yet because
01:21:22.120because he's a juvenile. But why else would you not put up a character defense? I just I don't
01:21:26.860understand. That's a very good question. That's what I was saying is like, he doesn't have a
01:21:30.660criminal record because he's a juvenile. But that doesn't mean he didn't commit crimes and pay for
01:21:34.520them in the juvie system. It doesn't. And so opens the door even like if there's school things if
01:21:38.940there were some, you know, if there are any indiscretions at school, even if they were
01:21:41.960administrative, that would open the door. If you put up a good character defense that opens the
01:21:45.620all of that. Yeah. Yeah. And she said he's her oldest, which means she's got other kids. Like
01:21:54.060you couldn't have a kit, like a younger sister say, please, please, you know, don't put my
01:22:00.000brother away forever. It's very strange that they limited it so much. Standby, I want to bring in
01:22:05.520Viva Frye, who's joining us now to add to our panel. Viva, are you surprised by any of this,
01:22:12.900in particular, that we are already in the sentencing phase and that it's already over
01:22:17.740the testimonials on his behalf. What I was shocked about is how how fast this trial moved.
01:22:24.500And full disclosure, everybody knows this. I'm a former Quebec civil litigator. I don't have
01:22:29.260any meaningful experience in criminal law, but with a criminal trial of this magnitude to have
01:22:35.440opening statements be 20 minutes, jury selection an hour and three quarters, trial on a Saturday
01:22:40.800or hearings on a Saturday, and the entire trial is over in a week.
01:22:45.000On the one hand, I think it's a testament to the weakness
01:22:48.280of what I've always believed to be a totally fabricated defensive self-defense.
01:22:52.440It was after-the-fact, ex-post-facto nonsense
01:22:55.680to try to justify the horrific, unjustifiable, in any sense, of what he did.
01:23:01.320And once they saw just how bad that was going,
01:23:04.220the fact that they ended their defense after basically a day and a half,
01:23:07.840there was no point digging the hole any further.
01:23:09.660But the truly malicious thing about this, the murder is it's beyond horror.
01:23:16.340The victimizing of the victim in the raising of a defense of self-defense and then the online mob that comes out there and says Austin Metcalf was the aggressor.
01:23:25.560That compounds the awfulness and the evil of the action.
01:23:28.420But this was it was a train wreck disaster slam dunk of a murder case.
01:23:32.220And there was no point in dragging it on any longer for the defense.
01:23:35.080here is a little bit more iman of what we're hearing from outside the courthouse the reaction
01:23:41.700from this radical group of new black panthers and their supporters not everyone there is a new black
01:23:48.320panther this is via nick's order as well take a listen in here sat 56
01:23:52.480to protect black people anytime a white man or white child can go and put their hands
01:23:58.420aggressively on anybody and something like this occur it's self-defense it's self-defense you put
01:24:06.800your hand on me and see how i respond what will the anthony family what will the people that
01:24:15.500standing behind the anthony family do that's the question you should ask you don't stand behind
01:24:19.840them and we're going to fight that's what's going to happen what is your relationship
01:24:23.400I'm sorry, Imran, but if this is the black jury pool that they were looking at for this case,
01:24:49.540is it any wonder that the jury is without any blacks?
01:24:53.400Well, certainly if that was the attitude that was being given during the voir dire, jury selection, no juror like that would ever be selected or a potential juror.
01:25:04.360And I have to just get to what is going on outside that courthouse now to suggest that there was some motivation by race or of race by that jury when they rendered their verdict.
01:25:20.160After hearing the evidence, after hearing the testimony, watching the video, seeing all the forensic evidence that was put before them, that is so insulting, right?
01:25:31.360It's so insulting to those jurors who sat there, listened to the evidence, and rendered a verdict based on that evidence just to assume and hurl these accusations that somehow it was racially motivated.
01:25:43.580It's just not there. And it's an insult to those jurors, the people in that courtroom and also the justice system.
01:25:51.580So not everything has to be racially motivated.
01:25:55.660And to turn this right, which was based on evidence, that evidence that we saw play out in that courtroom, whether the defendant was black and the victim was black or white and white, the evidence would be the same, Megan.
01:26:09.960And that evidence did not support a defense of justification or self-defense.
01:26:16.680There was no way of viewing that evidence to say that he acted proportionally or had the legal right to stab Metcalf.
01:26:25.780That's it. Period. End report. And that's why you have that.
01:26:29.820Proportionality. That's what it's all about. Proportionality.
01:26:32.680You can if if Austin Metcalf had gone over to him with a hammer, we wouldn't be here.
01:26:39.220Like, it would have been a different story, but he didn't.
01:26:44.300He literally just laid hands on him was the testimony.
01:26:47.420The one guy who was sitting next to Carmelo Anthony testified that Austin, quote, pushed him so gently, Anthony didn't even get bumped into his neighbor.
01:26:58.260His body didn't even, like, brush up against the neighbor.
01:27:02.600Of course, Austin Metcalf was a strapping football player who, if he really wanted to hurt Carmelo Anthony, you know, he could have done it.
01:27:12.220If he wanted to push him in a way that would have gotten his attention, he could have done it.
01:27:17.520I regret to tell you that Dominique Alexander is speaking outside of the courthouse, of course, because he's not going to miss his two minutes of fame.
01:27:26.780And you'll be shocked, shocked to hear his messaging.
01:28:51.100So, you know, when I hear him, I'm like, he's he's clearly not a lawyer out there talking about something that he doesn't have any business talking about.
01:28:57.420And it's very frustrating because these citizens have given up their lives for a week.
01:29:01.600And, you know, listening to jury doing jury duty and actually having to sit through all of this weighs very heavy on these jurors.
01:29:10.140I've talked to a ton of jurors after the fact and we were just at CrimeCon and they actually had a panel of ex-jurors who were talking about the profound impact it had.
01:29:18.200when he gets up there and he says this, it just devalues that civic duty that they're doing
01:29:22.540when they're doing jury duty. And you know, they're paying attention to this case. You know
01:29:26.920that they're weighing these lives very carefully, the lives that were lost and the life that they
01:29:31.980have in their hands, Mr. Anthony's life. And it's just very unfortunate to see their service,
01:29:36.360their civic duty discounted like that and just tossed aside and said that they're racist because
01:29:41.020because they voted with the law and with the evidence.
01:29:44.320Oh, and Viva, this shows, the verdict shows black men are not safe in Collin County.
01:29:52.840The decedent is a dead man, is a dead white man.
01:29:56.600He's a dead white man, not a black man.
01:30:07.140There was a couple of Asians, a Muslim woman, I think Latino.
01:30:09.980Now, as far as it goes, though, the argument of the intersectionality of racism is that it was of no use to a black defendant to have minorities who are not black because you wouldn't have that collegiality as though that's what you're supposed to have in a jury pool.
01:30:24.660It's supposed to be a jury of your peers, not a jury of your supporters.
01:30:28.240And, you know, some people might argue, well, you know, the Asian community might not have things in common with the black community.
01:30:34.000So therefore, it's not even like having a, put it in quotes, a useful minority on the jury pool.
01:30:38.600but the idea that they can come out and suggest and and at least the saving grace is it seems to
01:30:44.880be a very small handful of people who are free during the day to go and protest in front of a
01:30:49.880cut and pry murder case so it's not a broader scale thing but for the for the woman who came
01:30:56.240out there in the the black woman in the pink jersey to say if a white person puts their hands
01:31:00.660on me see what happens to you that's a criminal threat we're not talking about self-defense we're
01:31:05.580talking about murder. And what they're basically saying is what got Scott Adams in the deepest of
01:31:10.440trouble for. She is saying out loud what Scott Adams got canceled for. I don't want to be around
01:31:15.700white people. If a white person touches me, I feel entitled to murder them. That's what she said.
01:31:19.620Luckily, it's just a handful of what I think are crazies and not a broader sentiment. But
01:31:23.640maybe I'm being too optimistic. No, you're right. It's actually a good point about the Scott Adams
01:31:29.900thing. Just the incendiary nature of this guy. I'm telling you, I mean, you tell me, Imran,
01:31:35.900it tells us something about these parents that they selected this man as their family spokesperson.
01:31:40.840He's not been fired after that presser from April of 2025. He's still there. He's outside
01:31:46.640of the courthouse, once again, spewing off, mentioning Trayvon Martin after Trayvon Martin
01:31:54.360and so many countless names, it's shown us that black life is not safe in Collin County.
01:32:00.660I mean, look, I don't want to make this all about that nut, but he speaks for the family.
01:32:06.540And you would hope, Megan, that he would be speaking accurately, but he's not, right?
01:32:11.660We're seeing a distortion about what happens in a criminal trial in the justice system
01:32:17.980and this conclusory remarks, you know, making these assumptions as to what happened in that
01:32:23.820court. And then there's apples and oranges, right? Comparing this to Trayvon Martin. This is not that
01:32:28.620case. This is not that case at all. You have someone bringing a knife to a game who has no
01:32:37.440threat against them of any deadly force and decides to take that knife out and plunge it
01:32:44.880into the heart of another human being. That's it. You don't have to have all this commotion outside.
01:32:52.400In fact, it's a disservice to the defense, I think, because you start detracting from what should be the focus on the evidence there and the trial.
01:33:02.720And you start getting this whole circus out there, and it really doesn't advance anything.
01:34:03.960This is a handful of lunatics, radicals outside of this courthouse saying a bunch of nonsense that does not reflect what regular black people think.
01:34:15.260These are activists out there, Ashley, embarrassing themselves and undermining or trying to undermine the faith in a system that did its duty and came to the obvious only right conclusion under these particular facts and law.
01:34:30.360Right. And I would argue that they probably hurt the protesters probably hurt because the jurors had to know.
01:34:36.680I mean, they live in this community. They had to know about this.
01:34:39.260And when you see this every day, you walk into court, you think you're going to hear something explosive.
01:34:44.600You think with all of the publicity that we heard and all the protesters, I thought we were going to hear that Mr. Metcalf had said something awful or done something awful, that there was going to be some smoking gun that they kept from us all because there's no way Dominique Alexander is going to give these press conferences and say all this and promise all of this stuff if there's not going to be something when we go into court.
01:35:04.840So I would imagine these jurors walking past these protesters every day thinking this is this huge racial case.
01:35:10.240This is biased. You know, we're going to hear some explosive evidence.
01:35:12.860We're probably left wondering what like where was it?
01:35:16.500And it probably did a disservice to his defense.
01:35:19.600You know what else, Viva, like the indignity of these comments, because what are we dealing with in the news right now?
01:35:25.080We saw Henry Novak murdered by Vikram Digwa in the UK and a police force that refused to render aid or even believe him that he'd been stabbed five times because they were so anxious to accept the racial narrative over there that it had to be the white man who was the perpetrator and not the brown Sikh man who actually had stuck a knife in him five times.
01:35:48.260This morning, we wake up to an attempted beheading by someone from Sudan in Northern Ireland, attacking a man 40 years old, a white man who is within an inch of dying and still is not out of the woods.
01:36:02.960He's in the hospital now with reportedly terrible damage to his eyes.
01:36:06.340It could have been far worse had a man not stepped in and saved his life, a civilian.
01:36:10.880That's the narrative that we've been seeing on our television screens over the past week.
01:36:15.140Now, this guy wants to come out and talk about how racist we are against people of color in America.
01:36:31.420But I am actually having these discussions with certain people on Twitter where one person actually said there were two ways for this not to have happened.
01:36:39.480One, Austin Metcalfe could have gotten an adult and not asked Carmelo to leave.
01:36:45.140And the other is Carmelo could, you know, should not have stabbed him.
01:36:47.860And I'm like, apply that analogy to a woman who gets raped.
01:36:51.420And you say, well, there were two ways for her not to have gotten raped.
01:36:53.580She could have not gone to the nightclub or the rapist could not have raped her.
01:36:57.000As if to normalize this type of behavior in the first place, it's demeaning to the very people that they purport to be protecting to say, yeah, you know, there were two ways for this not to happen.
01:37:07.980You know, Anthony could have Austin Metcalf could have not exceeded the limits of his authority as a kid.
01:37:12.580or you know the other guy could not have stabbed him in the heart as if those two responses are
01:37:17.380somehow comparable so it does a disservice i just say the only saving grace here i think
01:37:22.440is it's a very vocal group of of radicals and not a broader sort of us versus them like we saw with
01:37:28.760oj simpson when i remember otherwise rational people or so i thought saying this is a victory
01:37:34.060because oj simpson got away with murder allegedly uh in this case it seems to be a much more narrow
01:37:39.080group of radicals located to the courthouse uh you know some sort of black panther offshoot and
01:37:43.880it doesn't seem to be wider spread or more you know broader across the national spectrum
01:37:48.520here's a little bit more from outside of the courthouse this is an attorney michael jafar
01:37:54.660i don't know that he had any role in the case i think he's just an attorney but could be wrong
01:37:59.460um this was on court tv's um coverage of this take a listen to his reaction i mean this is i'm
01:38:07.460questioning the jury and ask him, how did you reach your verdict? How did you reach it so quickly?
01:38:11.820What happened? It was a four-inch knife. He used it one time. He was pushed. I'm not saying that
01:38:16.940it was right, but what are you doing? How did you get this verdict? I'd want to know my whole
01:38:22.120identity as a defense attorney would be in question, right? I'm questioning my identity
01:38:26.860right now, and I have nothing to do with this case. How could you come back like that? I would
01:38:31.540be enraged. I'm enraged right now. This is very upsetting. And then on top of that, to compound
01:38:36.160this dumb judge didn't allow cameras in the courtroom. What was your wisdom? What were you
01:38:41.440thinking? How did you put on a robe? Are you that much of an imbecile that you won't let
01:38:46.240cameras in the courtroom in a case like this? This is not a rape case. This is something different.
01:38:51.740This is something that's clearly the whole community is enraged. And you knew that before
01:38:55.640the trial started. So, I mean, this is very upsetting. Wow. Wow, Ashley. It's a four-inch
01:39:04.620knife. He only used it one time. Yeah, I don't think that the family of Mr. Metcalf would really
01:39:11.440take kindly to that. He only used it one time, but he was so lethal that he only had to use it
01:39:15.640one time. I mean, that's just an awful argument. Now, I agree with him that I wish there were
01:39:19.060cameras in the courtroom, because then I think we wouldn't be having a lot of these debates that
01:39:22.600we're having because we'd actually be able to see that the jury got it right with our own eyes.
01:39:26.860But, you know, the fact that he's a defense lawyer and he is shocked at a three hour verdict,
01:39:30.960I'm not sure how many cases he's trying because that's not unheard of. Three hours is not that
01:39:36.100fast. This was not a tough case. They're not weighing fingerprint evidence. It's not a whodunit.
01:39:40.320It's not an identity. We're not talking about DNA. They didn't have thousands of witnesses to
01:39:44.760debate over. I mean, it was pretty open and shut. So if you think about it, so three hours, you know,
01:39:49.720they want to get lunch. They've got to vote on who's the foreperson. That takes maybe an hour
01:39:53.860or so. They're going to go around and take a vote or two and then maybe talk. But three hours,
01:40:20.940We've also reported this independently in the past.
01:40:23.500He has a history of criminal accusations and sentences.
01:40:25.960He was arrested in 2019 on a felony charge of family violence after his partner accused him of trying to strangle her.
01:40:34.540KXAS-TV reported, citing court documents, his partner later signed an affidavit just prior to a grand jury indictment saying that she wanted no further part in the prosecution on account of how the cops handled the case.
01:40:44.700The charges were later dropped, Dallas Morning News reported.
01:40:47.520The activist also was arrested in 2009 for causing serious head injuries to the two-year-old child of his then-girlfriend.
01:40:55.960Per the Dallas Observer, while Alexander initially claimed the baby fell off the couch while he was babysitting, an investigator said a doctor reported the severity of the injuries did not match up with that excuse.
01:41:09.920Quote, the injuries are acute and likely occurred around the time that his girlfriend's son started to have symptoms like being unresponsive.
01:41:20.360Without more adequate history of trauma, complainant's injuries are more consistent with abusive head trauma and child physical abuse.
01:41:29.060Alexander confessed to shaking and hitting the baby with an object, according to court records obtained by the Dallas Morning News.
01:41:37.580The judge sentenced him to probation. He was sentenced in 2016 to five years in prison for violating probation multiple times, but served only eight days due to the probation counting toward his sentence.
01:41:48.520He was indicted once again on felony theft charges that were increased due to a 2013 forgery conviction, citing court records.
01:41:55.620He pleaded guilty in 2021 and was sentenced to two days in jail.
01:41:58.160OK, before I give you his latest soundbite, I mean, honestly, you tell me, Amran, somebody like that walks into your office and says, I didn't do the shoplifting like I need you to represent me.
01:42:10.540I swear this is all made up. And your reaction is what?
01:42:14.180Well, Megan, listen, it's not going to be good for business if I say I'm not necessarily take my potential criminal defense.
01:42:20.980But you're not going to paint him as a choir boy.
01:42:23.520Well, it's questionable. I'll say that it's definitely questionable.
01:42:27.100And it's a track record, right? But, you know, he comes into the office. He says that. But now he's out here on the main stage putting certain information before the public. And what you just read out to the listeners and viewers, Megan, says it all right. He has a history as a checkered past there. He has convictions. So I'm not talking about just merely allegations with some of the points that you just made.
01:42:54.620And what would we do with that in the court of law if you had a witness with that, right?
01:42:59.960You'd attack their credibility, right?
01:43:02.340And that's what you have to think about when you hear.
01:43:05.980And that's what we have to do with him in the court of public opinion.
01:43:31.440An all, all white jury convicted him in two to three hours.
01:43:42.180We know that they did not approve their case.
01:43:47.040They are currently sentencing Carmelo Anthony.
01:43:50.300But we know that the Next Generation Action Network put the first $10,000 towards an
01:43:56.940appellate attorney. And we will fight Collin County like hell. I respected this process.
01:44:05.420I allowed and called for peace in this process. But black America should be very upset about what
01:44:12.380went on today. He's got a four degree conviction, Megan. Yeah, but they're trying to create a powder
01:44:21.480keg down there. He he's trying to create a powder keg. It's not going to work. I mean, I just find
01:44:26.620it funny. I'm not sure exactly what the relationship is, but, you know, I always said in the practice
01:44:30.680of law, clients tend to reflect their lawyers and lawyers tend to reflect their clients. The fact
01:44:35.460that this is the best spokesperson they can come out to protest the innocence of Carmelo Anthony.
01:44:40.200I mean, that tells you everything you need to know is that nobody with a conscience and with the absence of a criminal record would do it themselves.
01:44:46.680But first of all, like Ashley said, I do wish also they had had cameras in the courtroom.
01:44:50.620It would have avoided a lot of this. I don't chalk it up to the imbecility of the judge, but rather maybe, you know, they wanted to respect the victims in the process.
01:44:57.620But it would have resolved a lot of questions and assuaged a lot of concerns.
01:45:01.260The three hours also, like Ashley says, there's no there's no O.J. Simpson.
01:45:05.280I didn't do it in this case. What there is, is I did it.
01:45:08.440I admit that I did it, not alleged. And the only question is whether or not I was in sincere fear of imminent bodily harm when I stabbed him in the chest. And it is just so preposterous to say, well, he only stabbed him once. And if the argument had been from the beginning, you know, I just flipped out, show mercy on me. Then you could say, well, you know, the death penalty was not on the table here, but I think morally it could have been.
01:45:33.180Then you could say, well, then we can discuss attenuating circumstances, remorse, all that other stuff.
01:45:37.980He compounded his murder by trying to blame it on the victim and still asserting that now further compounds his own guilt.
01:45:46.380And there's just there was no room for any doubt as to whether or not he did it.
01:45:49.760And by all accounts, there was no room for any doubt as to whether or not it was legitimate, proportionate self-defense.
01:45:54.860It was murder straight up and he got what he deserved.
01:45:57.460That is to say, this is why some of these antics that we're seeing outside of the courthouse and from commentators on court TV, this is why this jury does need to be sequestered, sequestered if it takes overnight tonight, Ashley, because we just got word from inside the courthouse that the judge is going to let them deliberate until six.
01:46:18.980I'm actually not sure if that's Central Time or East Coast time.
01:46:23.180And then he's going to send them back at Central.
01:46:25.640OK, so 6 p.m. Central Time back to the hotel if they need more time so that they don't
01:46:30.620go home and they don't turn on their TV and see this nonsense coming at them.
01:47:09.780I mean, most people go through there and say, right, no arrests.
01:47:12.340I'm pretty sure everyone here, never, you know.
01:47:14.820So most people have gone through our entire lives without having the police at our house, without ever being arrested.
01:47:19.900And he's had it, what, five, six, seven times.
01:47:22.000And that's who they found to be their spokesperson for, you know, this this entire case and this entire movement that they're trying to do.
01:47:31.280But I think that sort of pervades this entire case, the family and their judgment.
01:47:35.620And, you know, Mr. Anthony's judgment.
01:47:37.320I mean, all of their judgment is just it's a tragedy.
01:47:39.760And it's really, I think, led to this outcome that could have been avoided if he had pled guilty, if he had taken responsibility, if he had owned up to his mistakes.
01:47:48.960I think we could have seen, you know, something less tragic than what we see here.
01:47:54.440Well, and not only that, but Viva, you just said I wanted to ask you something, a follow up.
01:47:58.020You said they tried to blame Austin Metcalf for his own demise.
01:48:03.460Not only did they do that by saying, like, somehow he was the aggressor, but when the defense lawyer got up there and made his closing argument, he actually had the nerve to suggest that Austin Metcalf threw himself on the knife, that there had actually been witness testimony suggesting he may have thrown himself on the knife, which is insulting.
01:49:51.720And not only did he do that to Metcalfe and his family, the victim, but he smeared the kids at Memorial High School, too.
01:50:01.660Their witnesses that their lawyers put on tried to say that it was a mob that surrounded Carmelo Anthony.
01:50:09.400You know, like, we're going to get him, making them look like a bunch of thugs who are going to gang up on some untold numbers on one kid, this one poor kid in the middle of this mob.
01:51:42.560And now I don't know what this jury is going to hand down for a sentence.
01:51:47.080We're going to wrap it because we're not going to stay on the air for another two hours waiting for this.
01:51:51.820But this just in from Marianne Martinez, The Daily Mail.
01:51:55.620Back in court after a break, lawyers and judge have been working on the charging document the jury in the trial will be using to determine his sentence.
01:52:04.720And so what would you expect that to sound like, Imran?
01:52:08.100Like what basically are they going to tell the jury?
01:52:10.780Well, certainly they're going to read the sentencing, the aspects of the sentencing to the jury and the charges that he's convicted and what he would be pasting.
01:52:21.960They're going to send that jury back and they're going to render a decision on the sentencing phase here.
01:52:26.240Right. So this is this is the fact that they kept this jury.
01:52:29.980It's happening fast. The judge wants to keep this going.
01:52:33.060And I think the judge wants to keep this going because there's a real chance that there's going to be events with it between now and let's say tomorrow that could affect the judgment of these jurors.
01:52:45.700So I would expect that the judge wants to keep this going, they want the sentence to come down rather expeditiously and for the safety of not only those jurors, but everyone around that courthouse to clear that courthouse and move on.
01:53:00.180mm-hmm yeah um i think it's the right move to have them sequestered you know just in case um
01:53:07.780we certainly hope uh that that's what's going to happen that they will remain sequestered if they
01:53:12.280need the night to think on this to study this case but i don't know you tell me ashley what do
01:53:20.320you what what's a fair sentence for this crime i wouldn't be surprised if they make a decision
01:53:24.880tonight and you know what happens that the jury charges on these types of things are aggravating
01:53:29.700circumstances versus mitigating circumstances. So what they're going to tell the jury they have
01:53:33.720to do is they have to consider the aggravation, you know, how awful it was, you know, any prior
01:53:39.100instances where maybe he has some prior instances where he's done something wrong.
01:53:43.080That's what you consider an aggravation. And then in mitigation is, you know, his mom's statement
01:53:47.320doesn't sound like we heard a whole lot of mitigation. So if there's not a lot, I don't
01:53:52.020think the jury is going to take a whole lot of time coming to their, you know, coming to their
01:53:55.640decision. And it's Texas. I mean, this kid went to trial. He did not beg for mercy. He did not
01:54:02.160take the stand in his own defense. He did not admit to wrongdoing and say he was sorry and
01:54:07.360beg for forgiveness. And I think because of that, I think they're going to give him every day they
01:54:10.800can. Yeah, that's what I would do. We're going to go out the air now and await news on the
01:54:17.280sentencing, which we will bring to you all tomorrow. Thank you all so much for coming on