The Megyn Kelly Show - Kate Middleton's Health, Dan Wootton Speaks Out For First Time Since Cancelation, and Pressures on Parents, with Tim Carney

00:00:00.540 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.260 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today we are joined by one of our

00:00:17.600 longtime friends and multiple-time guests of our show, who you may have noticed hasn't been on for

00:00:24.420 quite some time, about 10 months now. Dan Wooden is a well-known reporter in the British media,

00:00:30.000 he's a star, with stints at The Sun, The Daily Mail, and ITV, to name just a few. He's best known

00:00:36.680 for his consistent and unwavering reporting on the royal family. He was the journalist who broke

00:00:42.640 the story of Megxit when Prince Harry and Meghan Markle decided to step back from their roles

00:00:47.960 as royals. He's broken many huge exclusives over there in the UK. And this past year,

00:00:54.660 he dealt with two major controversies that you may have heard about. One that led to him being

00:01:00.540 let go from his role as a, quote, presenter, that's the word they use for anchor over in the UK,

00:01:06.580 from GB News, and the end of his successful column at The Daily Mail as well. Well, today he speaks out

00:01:12.780 for the first time in this exclusive interview to share what's happened and what's next. And we're

00:01:18.680 lucky to have him today because there's no shortage of royal news to get to. Who isn't obsessed with what

00:01:23.160 is happening with Kate Middleton? This is a story that has transfixed everyone. It's sort of like

00:01:29.380 Tiger King. It's one of those things that just brought everybody together, irrespective of their

00:01:32.980 politics, their background, their gender, their class. What is going on with the Princess of Wales?

00:01:40.480 We'll get to it all and more with Dan, who is announcing today the launch of a new show,

00:01:45.600 soon to come, and Substack, now posted. Dan Wooten, outspoken.

00:01:53.880 Dan, so great to have you back. How are you?

00:01:56.360 Oh, Megan, I'm okay. I've missed you because we were obviously having our weekly chats, weren't we?

00:02:02.180 But behind the scenes, you have been incredibly supportive of me. There have obviously been some

00:02:08.320 really dark moments, but you always saw the funny side because I remember you said to me,

00:02:13.620 you were the first person in the world who has been cancelled for not being offended enough by

00:02:19.540 something. And I thought, yeah, that sort of shows where we're at and maybe why I have to be

00:02:25.160 independent. Yes, we've had a lot of talks about it. And of course, the audience knows I highly

00:02:30.820 recommend this lane for someone who really just needs to be honest about the news, about their

00:02:36.800 opinions on society. And it's even worse over in the UK, where you have this, I know you call it

00:02:43.240 off-communist regulator, this thing called off-com that like your annoying aunt is constantly saying

00:02:50.960 like, don't say that. You can't say that either. You have to talk about it this way. If you're going

00:02:54.500 to say this, you have to say this other thing. Like to have your words so heavily policed must have

00:03:00.700 been infuriating. It was because what it means, Megan, is actually no one can speak genuinely

00:03:07.980 freely in the British broadcast media. There is controlled opposition because you are controlled

00:03:13.540 and off-com or the off-communists, as you say, released this report and they said, we're very

00:03:18.640 concerned that the GB news management were not able to control their presenter. Well, darn right,

00:03:25.560 I'm unable to be controlled. And I'm proud of that. And I was always proud of the fact that I was the

00:03:31.640 executive editor of the show. I wouldn't just say something because someone had parroted it into my

00:03:38.000 earpiece. But I think what is the most infuriating thing, Megan, with off-com is the things that they

00:03:44.640 don't investigate compared to what they do. And remember, this is an organization that's been taken over

00:03:50.840 by the radical left as much of the government has here in the UK, at least the government

00:03:57.380 department. So, for example, on the BBC, the British Bashing Corporation, as I call it, the left-wing

00:04:04.560 public broadcaster, they actually had a woman go on and said that she wanted to kill the whiteys.

00:04:11.500 The off-com decided not to investigate. Then Joe Brand, a so-called comedian, went on Radio 4,

00:04:20.720 BBC Radio Station, and said that she wanted to douse Nigel Farage, the big-time Brexit guy over here,

00:04:27.680 with battery acid. Off-com didn't investigate. They also didn't investigate when a pundit on ITV

00:04:35.140 described the balcony of Buckingham Palace as being horribly white. But what they are doing is they are

00:04:42.440 coming for any commentator or presenter who they consider anti-establishment, challenging the norms,

00:04:49.920 and broadly on the right.

00:04:52.500 Mm-hmm. And that's where you come in. Lucky you. So, GB News is a more conservative-leaning alternative to BBC,

00:05:02.680 and you were one of the inaugural hosts over there, presenters, and had the most successful show.

00:05:09.220 And I appeared on it weekly, and I absolutely loved your show, as did everyone. That's why it was so successful.

00:05:14.280 Um, and bizarrely, it ended after the following nothing of an exchange. I mean, I've been railing

00:05:22.320 about this with my audience. They know, because we've had Lawrence Fox on, we've had Calvin Robinson on,

00:05:26.000 and they know you. It was a nothing. It's amazing to me that this led to the end, ultimately, of the

00:05:32.580 show. Lawrence Fox's time at GB, Calvin Robinson for defending him. I willingly chose not to go back on GB

00:05:38.460 after they did this to my friends. But here is the exchange that the audience, it's going to be hard

00:05:43.800 for them to believe that this is what got everybody in so much trouble. It was Lawrence commenting on

00:05:49.340 a woman, who's also out there, very outspoken, who was scoffing at the notion that men's mental

00:05:57.780 health has deteriorated to the point where they need their own minister in the government to oversee

00:06:03.180 it as I think the women already have. But in any event, he was reacting to her. He was recoiling,

00:06:08.440 having had several friends who have fallen into deep depressions. And I think he said,

00:06:12.380 even taken their own lives. He wasn't having it. And here's the exchange that you guys had on your

00:06:17.580 show. Show me a single self-respecting man that would like to climb into bed with that woman ever,

00:06:25.060 ever. He wasn't an incel. He wasn't a cucked little incel. That little woman has been fed,

00:06:31.800 spoon-fed oppression, day after day after day after day, starting with the lie of the gender

00:06:37.800 wage gap. And she sat there and I'm going like, if I met you in a bar, and that was like sentence

00:06:43.840 three, chances of me just walking away are just huge. We need powerful, strong, amazing women who

00:06:51.680 make great points for themselves. We don't need these sort of feminist 4.0. They're pathetic

00:06:57.260 and embarrassing. Who'd want to shag that? Well, look, she... Sorry. I'm just going to provide a touch

00:07:08.600 of balance from her because she did actually respond to this earlier today, saying that she

00:07:15.640 regretted her comments, but she didn't apologise. Yes. So there you go.

00:07:24.440 And she's a very beautiful woman, Lawrence. Very beautiful woman. There you go.

00:07:30.380 That's it. That's it, Dan. And that was basically the end, eventually, of your time at GB,

00:07:36.940 the whole investigation, Ofcom, the same one that led, oh, horrible whiteys, that's no problem.

00:07:42.120 But this, this requires a national outrage. I mean, now having had some time to look back on it,

00:07:49.540 how are you feeling about it? Well, it was an establishment witch hunt,

00:07:53.480 pure and simple. This story was leading the news in the UK for 48 hours. I had all the mainstream

00:08:02.100 media camped outside my house. The former prime minister, Gordon Brown, went on sly news and demanded

00:08:10.320 that I never broadcast again in the UK. Now, two things. Personally, the words did not come out

00:08:16.980 of my mouth, right? Secondly, as you can clearly see there, I was providing the balance for the

00:08:24.220 off-communists. I read out what she had to say about the story. And then I made the point that

00:08:29.820 actually, Lawrence, you're saying you don't want to shag her. Well, she's a very beautiful woman.

00:08:33.160 Apparently, Megan, that makes me some sort of massive misogynist because the off-communist said

00:08:38.000 that that response, calling Ava Santina, actually compounded the offense. So you can't win in a

00:08:44.820 situation like this. You were supposed to say, actually, you as a gay man should have been like,

00:08:49.240 I would, I would shag that. That would have saved it. Exactly. It's completely nuts. And you know

00:08:56.780 what, Megan, this woman who acted all horrified about the fact that Lawrence used the shag word

00:09:03.640 and appeared on the front cover of the Daily Mail saying, woe is me, when actually she was counting

00:09:09.820 her bank balance because she became quite a famous left-wing pundit as a result of this incident.

00:09:15.220 She had been quite a user of the shag word in regards to men on social media for many,

00:09:24.300 many years. This was a completely confected outrage. And it was designed to end my career

00:09:32.260 on GB News, as you say. And I look, I say this with a lot of modesty because it's up to GB News who

00:09:38.400 they want to put on their channel. And clearly, for whatever reason, and we'll probably discuss it,

00:09:45.260 they were under a lot of pressure when it came to me. But I do think the decision is really peculiar.

00:09:51.820 I mean, we were the top rated show on GB News. We had overtaken Nigel Farage. We'd always been number

00:09:58.920 two in the ratings right from the start. But in May last year, and in a large part thanks to you,

00:10:05.840 Megan, we overtook Farage and we were the number one show on the channel. We were flying. So at that

00:10:12.200 point, that is when this very obvious witch hunt against me began. But I think it's insane. I think

00:10:18.780 it's completely insane that effectively I lost my mainstream media platform for words that I did not

00:10:26.440 say for, as you put it, not being offended enough by something. And remember, Megan, our show ad at

00:10:33.920 9pm at night, it could be a bit wild. We're all adults. I just think... It was great.

00:10:41.300 Yeah, it's disappointing. But I guess I've come to this place where I realise, and I've obviously

00:10:46.180 looked at what you're doing, looked at what Tucker Carlson's doing, looked at what Dan Bongino's

00:10:52.000 doing. All three of you, I would argue, actually have more influence than when you were hosting

00:10:59.940 top rated shows on Fox News, because we are going through this media revolution. And I remember

00:11:05.620 speaking to Dan Bongino after the incident, and he said, look, Dan, GB News folded quicker than a cheap

00:11:12.080 suit. You don't want to be working for people like that. Actually, you've got to ride this wave now.

00:11:18.840 And so I'm going to try and do what you three have done very successfully in the US media here in the

00:11:26.900 UK. And I really do believe there's a big gap in the market for it. There is a huge gap. They need

00:11:32.240 it. The UK needs you, especially given just how regulated things are. They need a place that speaks

00:11:38.200 to them, honestly. That's what was so disappointing about GB is that they were supposed to be the

00:11:43.300 alternative to the BBC and stand up for free speech. And, you know, if things get a little

00:11:48.380 bawdy or whatever, fine, then take the hit. But they didn't. And so it was a disappointment to me

00:11:54.400 personally, because I do have fondness for a lot of the people and the executives over there.

00:11:58.380 FYI, I did reach out to them just to say, hey, you know, Dan's going to come on. Do you want to say

00:12:02.080 anything? And the statement was to the effect of, we wish Dan well in his future endeavors. So

00:12:07.640 not wanting to weigh in clearly on the substance. Let's go back because you and I, I think both

00:12:13.820 believe that it wasn't just about that moment on the air. There was, as you point out, a smear

00:12:18.900 campaign that was launched against you several months before, and it was ugly. It was ugly.

00:12:25.760 And GB did not get rid of you. Daily Mail did not totally get rid of you. I think you were placed on

00:12:30.360 suspension when this first sort of scandal broke. I think it was the second fake scandal. I don't know

00:12:36.660 if they just use that as an excuse or what, but let's talk about it to the extent you would like

00:12:40.300 to, where this website in the UK, the Byline Times, I think it's just a website. I don't think

00:12:49.080 it's a paper publication to launch a story accusing you of having years ago been, I'm going to get it

00:12:58.300 right, under a pseudonym, having gone to colleagues at an earlier place you worked and asked them under a

00:13:06.540 pseudonym for nude pictures or pictures of sexual acts for money, not disclosing that it was you.

00:13:14.260 And at the time you went on the air on your show and said, look, I can't say that much about this

00:13:20.460 because they were, they demanded a criminal investigation that got started. That's all

00:13:24.920 been dropped against you. You've both investigations have said no charges can be brought here, of course.

00:13:30.340 But you did say there's more to the story and I deny the allegations. So do you think that that was

00:13:37.080 the real reason? And do you want to weigh in at all now that you can on the allegations?

00:13:43.060 Yeah, no, I absolutely do, Megan, because this organization turned my life upside down on lies

00:13:50.980 and it has completely changed the way that I look at the media. You know, I was executive editor of

00:13:57.840 The Sun. I was someone that would have reported on people's personal lives in the past. And after

00:14:03.720 what's happened to me, I've done a complete 180 when it comes to these sorts of stories, because what

00:14:09.460 Byline Times did was weaponize false allegations to destroy my reputation and destroy my mainstream media

00:14:17.720 career. And to some extent, and they'll be celebrating this, they succeeded, even though I feel like I

00:14:22.420 have this great opportunity now. And what they did and what was so disturbing, Megan, and why

00:14:26.360 I couldn't say much about it at the time, is they went to the police with this false information

00:14:34.260 to try and force the police's hand to launch an investigation. Of course, when that happens,

00:14:39.960 you can then not say much about it because the investigation drags on for a number of months. So

00:14:45.760 I was always very clear to everyone that these allegations are a lie, that there was certainly

00:14:53.120 no criminality involved at all, ever. And I will prove that. And I did prove that, not only to my

00:14:59.960 bosses, but to the police who have dropped both of the investigations. But what was so disturbing,

00:15:06.280 Megan, is the people who were behind this, so the people who were working with Byline Times,

00:15:11.720 were a convicted extortionist, a guy who had actually gone to jail for extorting £90,000 out

00:15:21.760 of gay men. The judge had described this guy when she sent him to jail for four years as a compulsive

00:15:28.560 danger to society. So that was one of them. The second was a convicted violent criminal who had tried

00:15:35.680 to extort me out of £100,000 just a couple of weeks earlier. And then the other Megan was my ex.

00:15:44.020 And this is a really hard thing to talk about. And it's really mortifying and really embarrassing

00:15:49.840 because obviously I have the most wonderful partner today who has stood by me through all of this.

00:15:55.460 And I hate the fact that I have to talk about this horrible person, an abusive guy who was in my life

00:16:01.080 11 years prior. And he effectively had concocted a story and had been working on this story for about

00:16:07.820 five years to try and destroy me. Now, I was able to present to the police evidence that what he was

00:16:14.520 saying was completely untrue. I mean, Megan, I have emails from this guy admitting to being a psychopath,

00:16:22.760 admitting to having dark sexual urges. I mean, this was nothing more than a false allegation.

00:16:30.400 But what I've learned is that if the media is weaponized and the criminal justice system is

00:16:38.000 weaponized, and this is something you'll see a lot in the US as well, especially against right-wing

00:16:42.440 political figures, it can do so much damage. So I do want to talk about it actually, because this is

00:16:50.840 now going to be one of the overwhelming missions of my life to ensure that due process returns.

00:17:00.400 To the media, to the justice system, because I'll tell you what I went through, I went through trial by

00:17:06.540 social media, and it was based on lies. And it was completely perpetuated by people who were

00:17:14.860 actuated by malice. And unfortunately, my employers, I do believe, gave into that. And I think that was

00:17:24.740 wrong. But I understand why. Because they've got advertisers saying, what the heck is going on?

00:17:31.080 Why is Dan Wooten trending again? Why is there this police investigation? I mean, honestly, it is so

00:17:37.340 easy now to conduct a complete witch hunt against someone, because people are so quick to dive in

00:17:45.080 and follow up false allegations. And I mean, as I say, and look, Megan, I'm happy to sit down

00:17:50.820 with anyone. I remember I spoke to you about it at the time. I'll sit down with anyone like I did with

00:17:56.100 the police. And I'll tell you the names of these people. I'll show you the emails. I'll show you the

00:18:00.920 proof. But the problem is a lot of men don't have that proof. Yeah, no, that's exactly right. I there's

00:18:09.060 a lot in there. So I just unpack a little bit. We reached out to the people involved. You didn't say

00:18:13.600 the ex's name. And I'm not going to either here. But he did give us some background. And I think

00:18:20.040 basically, he this person denies having ever been convicted of a crime. And that's important,

00:18:28.800 because to say otherwise, if it's not true is defamatory. And also this publication, it is print

00:18:34.900 publication, I guess this, this, the one that took the shot at you, they stand by every word of their

00:18:41.240 story. They do not think they've gotten anything wrong. And kind of, I think, you know, some people

00:18:47.640 might be asking Dan about the statement that you made on GB when it all broke, because there you did

00:18:52.060 kind of take some responsibility for having been having made mistakes in your personal life. And,

00:18:58.480 you know, being sorry about them, you said, okay, let's see, I pulled it up. You said I'm a fallible

00:19:06.440 human being. And like all fallible human beings, I've made errors of judgment in the past,

00:19:11.240 but the criminal allegations are simply untrue. He said, but I'm here with a lot of humility.

00:19:16.840 And he said, who doesn't have regrets? Should I be canceled for them many years later? Or do you

00:19:21.560 accept that I have learned and changed? There are dark forces out there trying to take this brilliant

00:19:26.820 channel down, meaning GB news at the time. So, I mean, is this a situation, Dan, where there's a

00:19:31.860 kernel of truth and it just got blown up? Or, you know, what, like what happened? Because there are a lot

00:19:38.020 of people who do stupid things in their twenties that they go on to become public figures and live

00:19:42.380 to really regret. We now have the word of two law enforcement agencies that nothing criminal was

00:19:47.140 done and that that was not a true allegation against you. So, and look, I have no desire to

00:19:52.480 go back through a smear campaign against you, my friend, but I do want to give you the chance to

00:19:55.860 clear the air on it if you'd like to. Yeah. Well, I guess there's a couple of things I'd say.

00:19:59.340 Firstly, in terms of the statement on GB news, I was under a lot of pressure. As you can imagine,

00:20:03.580 you know what happens when a story like this breaks, you have management and you have owners

00:20:09.980 and investors of said channel. And I was under a lot of pressure to go on air and express some

00:20:17.760 humility. But I look back now and I've spoken to a lot of people who I respect on this. And a lot of

00:20:25.820 those folks think I made a mistake actually, because why should I be apologetic for anything

00:20:33.580 that's gone down in my private life? As long as I was always acting in a moral way and a legal way,

00:20:42.700 which I always was. And fundamentally, Megan, byline times, multiple times accused me of illegality,

00:20:52.780 of breaking the law. Well, believe me, right? The police would love to get me. They would absolutely

00:21:00.600 love to get me. If there was a scrap of evidence, Megan, believe me, they would have handed it on.

00:21:07.500 I mean, the process in the UK is that if there's any evidence, if the police think there's any chance

00:21:12.760 of a potential charge, they hand the evidence on to the Crown Prosecution Service. That's just the

00:21:18.520 first step in the process. In the Crown Prosecution Service, look at the evidence and decide if there's

00:21:23.500 a realistic chance of conviction. And if so, you were charged. Megan, the police, neither police force

00:21:29.320 even handed anything on to the Crown Prosecution Service because there was nothing. There was no

00:21:36.420 evidence. Now, look, of course, I was a young gay man in a very toxic, abusive relationship. And

00:21:43.040 there's lots of things that I do regret from that relationship. Firstly, that I ever stayed with this

00:21:47.540 person. Should I have to talk about it now when I'm 40 years old in a very happy relationship? No,

00:21:54.520 I don't think I should. I don't want to. This guy, you know, you can imagine I've really considered,

00:22:01.300 do I release the emails that he sent me that prove my case? And actually what this guy wants is attention

00:22:08.520 because he's one of life's losers. He's never achieved anything in his life and he has huge

00:22:14.480 jealousy of me. I mean, I was looking back at our emails and he said, you know, I wanted to be a

00:22:20.940 newspaper editor when I was growing up. I wanted to do something with my life. Well, you can imagine it

00:22:26.320 must be pretty hard when you're seeing your ex achieve those things that you hoped you would

00:22:31.680 achieve. But personally, I just hope he moves on with his life now because we have been broken up for

00:22:37.680 11 years, Megan. He has caused huge damage to the mental health of my current partner and I think he

00:22:46.100 should move on. And the other two people who were involved in this who actually authored the story,

00:22:50.800 and I'm sure we'll get to them shortly, I think they should move on too because they wanted this to go

00:22:57.820 through a criminal process. It did. I cooperated fully. I have been completely exonerated.

00:23:07.540 What more can you do? I mean, once the police have said there's nothing there and you've also lost two

00:23:12.940 jobs at this point, it's like, what more is there to be done? There is a real question about...

00:23:18.320 My lawyer, Megan, Donald Blaney, a brilliant guy, a very brilliant guy, he said to me,

00:23:22.880 they will not stop until you're dead, dad. They will not stop until you've lost everything.

00:23:29.540 These are the types of people we're dealing with, Megan. These are very sick human beings.

00:23:34.240 I mean, some of the things I've done, I can't... I mean, you'll think it's so crazy, but

00:23:39.680 they actually rang the police, Megan, and said that they believed that I was going to take my own life

00:23:47.660 so that the police had to come to my house and do a welfare check. Now, I believe the reason that

00:23:53.840 Byline Times did that was so that if I had taken my own life, they would be able to say,

00:24:00.480 oh, but we were concerned. You know, we were concerned.

00:24:03.580 How do you know it was Byline Times that called the police and said you needed a welfare check?

00:24:06.720 Because the police told me.

00:24:08.740 Oh my goodness.

00:24:09.600 It was Dan Evans, the reporter from Byline Times. And I'm sorry, stronger people would not be here

00:24:17.120 today, but I was not going to let these liars and losers destroy me.

00:24:23.600 Wow. I know it's... You've been through the ringer, Dan. They give us a bit of a statement. I mean,

00:24:29.580 it's lengthy and we can post it online, but I can't read the whole thing here. We'll be here all day.

00:24:34.140 It basically says they exist to serve the public interest, hold powerful to account,

00:24:37.520 no matter how powerful the person is. We stand by every word we've written. We will continue to

00:24:42.160 cover what is still a developing news story. So I don't think they're ready to back off, Dan.

00:24:47.260 For democracy to function, it's vital that journalism can challenge false narratives. Well,

00:24:51.760 you and I agree with that. Also hypocrisy in public life and the abuse of power. And then they go on to

00:24:56.840 make additional allegations about what they've reported, which we've covered. So that's them

00:25:03.300 defending their own publicizing publications about you. I don't have any wish to get any further

00:25:10.340 mired in this. Look, what I know, and I've known you for a few years now, is you're a good man. You're

00:25:16.240 an important broadcaster. You're brave. You're bold. You're a truth teller. You've broken huge stories.

00:25:21.780 You've always had my back. I think what's been done to you is a public smear campaign. And I think even if

00:25:27.820 you did some acts that you're embarrassed about when you were, you know, in your young twenties,

00:25:32.360 that shouldn't define you now. You have a whole career and 20 decades under your belt to show us

00:25:37.640 who you are. And I just think it's very obvious that whoever this is waited until you were at the

00:25:44.720 peak of your power to come forward and try to hurt you. And that's, it's very obvious to me why that was

00:25:50.940 done. And I don't think this is like, and you know, I think you and I disagreed on the Russell

00:25:55.040 brand allegations because I was really outraged by them. Um, many people weren't, but I don't think

00:26:00.820 this is the same because in that case, he was literally accused of sexually assaulting. And in

00:26:06.320 a case, raping a woman, I, he denies it. Okay. But to me, that is a totally different category than

00:26:12.820 if you allegedly use a pseudonym to try to get people to send you naughty pictures. I'm not saying

00:26:18.220 either one is okay or right. Well, that of course, but this isn't the same. And there are certain,

00:26:23.460 like people have to be able to go on to have public careers without having to atone for every

00:26:29.600 stupid ass move they made in their twenties. Okay. That's just where I am on it, Dan, without

00:26:35.080 condemning or giving life to the allegations. No, no, no. And that's my point. Look, I'm,

00:26:40.400 it's such a difficult one when you've gone through something like this, because you talk about the

00:26:44.200 allegations and as you say, you then give them further life, but that didn't happen, Megan. I mean,

00:26:49.980 the point is, is that the ex-boyfriend was trying to blame me or set me up for things that he had done

00:26:58.220 over the course of the relationship, which I was able to prove to the police. So that that's the

00:27:03.000 first thing to, to, to say, uh, very clearly. But the, the, the bigger point I think is that

00:27:10.800 I have been in a monogamous, happy, beautiful relationship for the past four years. That is my

00:27:21.180 life. Now, what public interest is there, Megan? And what I was getting up to 15 years ago in my

00:27:30.440 personal life. Well, wait, that's, that's the question. That's the question. I know you're

00:27:34.880 trying to answer right now. What are the interests behind this? And is it bigger than just some ex with

00:27:43.840 an ax to grind speaking out to the byline times? And I know that you actually do believe that there

00:27:49.820 may have been a more powerful hand behind the interest in your personal life or taking you down.

00:27:57.240 So explain what you think, what your belief is.

00:28:00.220 Well, so Dan Evans, uh, who is the reporter for the byline times, who authored these stories was

00:28:09.000 with one other man, Megan. He is, and by the way, byline times doesn't reveal this, uh, on their

00:28:17.500 stories. He is the UK's most prolific phone hacker. He is a convicted criminal who avoided jail despite being

00:28:29.580 the most prolific phone hacker across the Sunday mirror and news of the world titles. I'm sure you

00:28:34.100 remember Megan, but for folk who don't, this was a huge scandal in the UK that shut down the news of

00:28:40.320 the world, uh, Rupert Murdoch Sunday newspaper in 2011. Now I was working there at the time.

00:28:46.720 Dan Evans, in order to avoid jail, he turned on all of the folk who had been hacking phones with him

00:28:54.820 at these two newspapers. I was not working there at the time. Uh, I testified in the Leveson inquiry

00:29:01.220 that I never was involved in hacking a phone or any illegal activity during my time at any newspapers.

00:29:06.780 And I stand by that. So my conscience on this is incredibly clear, but Dan Evans was a phone

00:29:12.180 hacker. He was a very prolific phone hacker because he turned on the newspapers, Megan. He ended up in

00:29:19.180 a very, uh, interesting spot where the people who want to destroy the free press in the UK, largely led by

00:29:27.360 this lawyer called David Sherborne, who represents folk like, uh, Alton John and Prince Harry, all of a sudden

00:29:34.960 were very interested in him. So Dan Evans is like the ultimate poacher turned gamekeeper. He was the hacker

00:29:41.200 who actually did all of this illegal stuff at the newspapers and then has spent the past 10 years. He claims

00:29:48.040 trying to atone for his crimes, but effectively working with these celebrities who feel that they

00:29:54.160 were hacked. Well, guess who the most famous person he's been working with who wants to bring down the

00:30:01.540 free press in the UK, a certain Prince Harry. Now I know for a fact that Dan Evans was at court with Prince

00:30:11.420 Harry last year when Prince Harry went to court. You remember, um, in a case against the Daily

00:30:17.940 Mirror, which is largely driven by Prince Harry's absolute hatred of Piers Morgan, who was an editor at the

00:30:25.340 Daily Mirror at the time. Uh, so he was at court with Harry and further Megan, I have learned that Prince Harry

00:30:35.500 has been in negotiations over a number of months to sit down with this crazy organization byline times, which are

00:30:44.660 completely unregulated and full of mad people, uh, for a tell all interview. So my very strong-

00:30:52.860 Just to be clear. So if that's true, then that would be the fifth in line for the throne sitting down with a

00:30:58.820 convicted felon for an interview?

00:31:01.500 Yeah. I don't know whether Dan Evans himself is going to conduct that interview, but Dan Evans and Prince

00:31:08.660 Harry have been in communication. He was at court with Prince Harry. He has worked closely with Prince

00:31:17.920 Harry's legal teams on his cases versus the Daily Mirror. And there's another one coming versus, uh,

00:31:24.800 News UK, which was the publisher of News of the World and also the Daily Mail. So for people who say,

00:31:31.520 and there are lots of people, Megan, who say, Oh, don't be so ridiculous, Dan. Uh, as if Harry gives

00:31:37.420 a damn about any of this. Well, seriously, you don't know Prince Harry. The mission of Harry's life

00:31:45.420 is now to bring down his enemies in the British media. And who are the two most high profile enemies

00:31:53.040 of Prince Harry? Myself and Piers Morgan. And if you look closely at the coverage in byline times of

00:32:01.440 Piers Morgan, Megan, they have been calling for the Metropolitan to police. So here is again,

00:32:07.500 uh, byline times weaponizing the British justice system. They are calling for the police,

00:32:12.240 the Metropolitan police to reopen the criminal investigation into Piers Morgan's hacking of

00:32:18.520 phones at the Daily Mirror or the alleged hacking of phones. Now, do you know what I would say

00:32:24.020 about that? Just to be clear though, just to be clear, these are your beliefs. You know, you,

00:32:28.280 you report for a fact that they've been at least in contact that this guy at byline times has been

00:32:33.740 in contact with Harry's legal team because you saw them in court together. You believe that they've

00:32:38.400 been in communication beyond that for an interview, which would be extraordinary. I think for Prince

00:32:43.620 Harry to be speaking to, you know, a group that's not perhaps that well-known or respected with,

00:32:50.180 that's my impression from our discussion. Um, and we know that Prince Harry, I mean,

00:32:55.240 I've experienced in that myself and just in watching it, they're, they're lashing out and

00:32:59.020 there, there are many lawsuits against the media. They're very litigious. And he and Megan have

00:33:04.620 filed multiple lawsuits against media figures, trying to shut down publications or punish

00:33:08.880 publications that come out with, um, pieces that they disapprove of. And you believe that there's a

00:33:15.000 chance he's behind this, that he's either too, Oh, just only too happy to see the byline times go after

00:33:20.760 you or maybe even inspired it. Indeed. Because remember, there's another aspect to the story,

00:33:30.420 which is that Prince Harry admitted in his book, spare that at the Sandringham summit. Now,

00:33:38.120 remember this was the big meeting that was called by the late queen after I'd revealed that Harry and

00:33:45.380 Megan wanted to leave the British Royal family. And it caused this constitutional crisis at the time.

00:33:50.760 Harry admits in his book that one of the main conversations between William and Harry on the

00:33:57.520 day was regarding my reporting because Harry had this belief that I was being, and we've spoken about

00:34:05.260 it before on your show, Megan, but I, that I was being leaked stories by people within the Royal family.

00:34:12.380 And again, Harry, uh, feeding information to byline times has spent years attempting to publish the

00:34:22.300 story. They actually ran it on their front page. Uh, you had to get deep, deep down into their 10,000

00:34:28.040 word missive until you actually reach the fact that these claims have been investigated thoroughly

00:34:34.520 again by the Royal family and the police, Megan. And again, there was no truth to it. So Harry was

00:34:43.000 unable to file his legal case against me, but this just paints a picture of how desperate Harry is to

00:34:51.460 bring down his enemies within the British press. Now, when it comes to me, I find it quite extraordinary

00:34:56.160 because what did I do? I reported the truth. I mean, no one has denied any of my stories. And of course I

00:35:04.540 was talking to everyone. I was talking to people close to Charles. I was talking to people close to

00:35:08.980 the late queen. I was talking to people close to William, but I was also speaking to people close to

00:35:15.160 Megan and Harry. That's my job, Megan. I was a journalist. That is not illegal.

00:35:20.820 These two are so vindictive and never miss an opportunity to play the victim while behind the

00:35:29.480 scenes, actually behaving like villains. Megan Markle was just out there at the South by Southwest,

00:35:36.400 um, you know, conference just the other day complaining again about how badly she's been

00:35:44.380 bullied. And she tried to play the pregnancy card too. It's like, it's called being a public figure.

00:35:50.140 You know, you and I have talked about this many times. Let's talk about the day I was breastfeeding

00:35:54.140 my newborn baby. I just got home from the hospital and Jon Stewart did an 11 minute vicious piece on

00:36:00.300 me. Okay. It happens. It's not nice, but you're a public figure. You're the one who wanted to

00:36:05.340 marry into the Royal family. This is why most people like Cressida, the ex-girlfriend of Harry

00:36:10.500 didn't want to do that. Um, plus she was dying to be a star. Who are we kidding? She was dying for

00:36:15.540 the coverage. She just didn't want any of it to be negative. So here she was Dan just the other day,

00:36:20.140 again, bitching about her media coverage and how mean in particular women are. Watch this.

00:36:27.340 I keep my distance from it right now, just for my own, um, wellbeing, but the bulk of the bullying

00:36:33.780 and abuse that I was experiencing in social media and online was when I was pregnant with Archie and

00:36:41.680 with Lily and with a newborn with each of them. Um, and you just think about that and you really wrap

00:36:49.200 your head around why people would be so hateful. It's not catty. It's cruel. You could either succumb

00:36:56.120 to it or nearly succumb to how painful that is. What I find the most disturbing, frankly,

00:37:02.120 especially as a supporter of women is how much of the hate is women completely spewing that to other

00:37:10.700 women. And I cannot make sense of that. OMG. Why would people be so hateful and so cruel? Number

00:37:20.940 one, it's called reporting. You guys caused a lot of controversy by taking advantage of the queen,

00:37:25.320 being given every advantage by her. And then we're absolutely ungrateful, started leaking to the media

00:37:30.900 and left, left the British people wanted to keep your titles, wanted them to keep funding your

00:37:35.920 security, wanted all the benefits and none of the downsides. And that's why people said mean things

00:37:40.880 about you. It's not hateful or cruel. It's opinions that you earned. And secondly, Dan, as a supporter

00:37:47.980 of women, as a supporter of women, I really don't understand how the women could, could critique me

00:37:52.820 really as Kate Middleton, how supportive Megan Markle is of her. Indeed. And

00:38:00.720 there is so much rank hypocrisy here. And I'm actually already working on a piece for my,

00:38:06.640 for my new platform, Dan Wooden Outspoken, Megan, about- Everybody's got to go subscribe,

00:38:11.580 support Dan, go subscribe. We need him to succeed in this mission. Dan Wooden Outspoken. And if you

00:38:17.220 can be a paid subscriber, so much the better, because we need Dan to actually be able to put

00:38:20.560 food on his table. Keep going, keep going. Thank you, Megan. Thank you, Megan. But yeah,

00:38:23.540 I'm working on this piece for the new platform about the Sussex Squad. Now, these are the internet

00:38:30.360 trolls who literally work on behalf of Harry and Megan's message. Now, Harry and Megan are obviously

00:38:38.860 removed from them directly. But what they have never done is come out and say, we abhor the

00:38:47.440 behavior of the Sussex Squad. And we encourage the Sussex Squad to stop their behavior. And the behavior

00:38:52.360 that I'm talking about, by the way, is trolling far worse than anything else I've seen on the

00:38:58.080 internet. I mean, these are the nastiest, most horrible, vindictive people in the world. The

00:39:02.280 biggest trolls on the internet are connected to Harry and Megan via the Sussex Squad. And why I'm

00:39:08.340 taking a particular interest in them, Megan, is I have discovered that the Sussex Squad were actually

00:39:14.460 behind many of the false allegations put out about me. This is before Byline Times had even published

00:39:20.880 anything. And were also fundamental in fundraising via crowdfunding £100,000 four byline times to

00:39:31.260 continue their false witch hunt against me. So if Megan really cares about the internet trolls,

00:39:38.980 right, why doesn't she speak out against the Sussex Squad?

00:39:43.100 Oh, please. She doesn't care at all. She only wants to see herself discussed in the most laudatory

00:39:50.780 and glowing terms. She gets very upset when you report the negative things about her, no matter how

00:39:57.160 true they may be, or whether it's your genuinely held opinion like it's mine, that she's a selfish,

00:40:04.260 catty brat. And that not even living in a castle and marrying a prince could make her happy,

00:40:10.960 which is why she had to destroy him and break up the royal family. And she's still playing the victim

00:40:18.300 while potentially behind the scenes trying to ruin careers. Is that bullying? Megan? How about you,

00:40:25.180 Harry? And while he may want to claim all day long, Dan, that he doesn't care about you,

00:40:29.040 he mentioned you in his book. He took a personal shot at you, called you, quote, a sad little man.

00:40:34.360 So if he doesn't care at all about Dan Wooden or the reporting you do, then why would he elevate you

00:40:39.840 to a net mentioned by name in his memoir? He does care. And I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn

00:40:46.500 behind the scenes. He's doing what he can to get back at you. Well, as I say, at the Sandringham

00:40:52.920 summit, you would think they had far bigger fish to fry than Dan Wooden's reporting. But that was what

00:40:59.580 he chose to have the conversation with Prince William about. And we know that he is publicly

00:41:06.600 campaigning now for Piers Morgan to be reinvestigated by the police. And look, this is crazy stuff, Megan.

00:41:14.720 This is crazy stuff. Like, there is so much going wrong in the UK today, right? This is a country

00:41:22.060 where you can get your house broken into, where you can be violently mugged on the street,

00:41:28.100 and the police will simply not bother to turn up. Something like 2% of burglaries are now properly

00:41:34.800 investigated in the UK because the police are so overstretched. And Harry, who doesn't even live

00:41:41.500 here anymore, believes that the police's priority, the Metropolitan Police's priority, should be

00:41:47.100 reinvestigating Piers Morgan. It makes me sick the way that the Byline Times and Prince Harry are

00:41:54.620 weaponising the police. And the police actually need to man up now and stop being influenced by

00:42:01.060 this sort of thing. Because in terms of the investigation into me, Megan, it was a colossal

00:42:06.240 waste of time. And do you know what's happening? There's now a two-tier justice system. Because let me

00:42:11.300 tell you, if I was a plumber and some crazy ex and some crazy convicted criminal went into the police

00:42:17.820 station and made nutty claims about me with no evidence whatsoever, the police would laugh them

00:42:24.680 out of that station and would not investigate. So what we're now seeing is that public figures are

00:42:29.340 so vulnerable because of the way that the police and the justice system is being weaponised by the

00:42:34.780 left. And it's wrong.

00:42:36.100 Just to go back, the Daily Mail reported about some of this that you just told our viewers and

00:42:44.920 our listeners. Well, first this. BBC in 2014 reported that Dan Evans, the man we're talking

00:42:51.360 about behind Byline Times, admitted accessing the voicemails of 200 celebrities, politicians,

00:42:56.780 and sports people listening to more than 1,000 voicemails while he worked at News of the World.

00:43:01.160 So, yes, to your point, that's been well documented. Daily Mail article in May of 2023

00:43:06.560 about him and his connection to Prince Harry. Okay? Again, for the people listening at home,

00:43:12.500 this is the publication that did the hit piece on Dan and says it's not going to stop. It's going

00:43:17.540 to keep trying to investigate Dan. This guy, Dan Evans, went and testified, gave evidence,

00:43:26.340 as they call it in the UK, as a witness for Prince Harry in his case against the alleged

00:43:35.440 hackers present day. This is like sort of a separate hacking case that he was just raising

00:43:41.280 and won. And they reported that a convicted phone hacker whose evidence is helping Prince

00:43:49.820 Harry to sue the newspapers, that's Dan. This is a reference to Dan Evans. They're reporting

00:43:54.260 that Dan Evans threatened to, quote, destroy a private investigator unless he came on side.

00:44:02.780 That was the testimony in court. This man named Paul Hawkes, H-A-W-K-E-S, said he was warned

00:44:08.600 by this guy, Dan Evans, that if he did not, quote, play ball, that he and his firm would be ruined

00:44:15.260 by an anti-press group called Hacked Off. He's giving this testimony about Dan Evans. I know this is

00:44:22.880 in the weeds for our American audience, but if you follow the strain, what Dan is alleging is that

00:44:28.440 this guy who was convicted of phone hacking now is helping Prince Harry, who we know can't stand

00:44:35.140 Dan. And then suddenly this guy's organization, Byline Times, does repeated in-depth pieces on

00:44:43.120 alleged criminal behavior by Dan, which then does get two investigations, both of which conclude

00:44:48.300 there was no criminal wrongdoing here. That's where we are today. And you first got suspended

00:44:54.360 by the Daily Mail, which then cut ties with you after that, the nothing burger with Lawrence Fox

00:44:58.940 and the GB News folks stood by you when this first hit. But then when the Lawrence Fox thing happened,

00:45:05.500 cut ties with you. You know, I look, frankly, I can understand them being like, there's too much heat.

00:45:10.360 You know, we got to run. But who caused the heat? And was the heat real? And was it justified?

00:45:14.740 And should this have been given a chance to play out in the courts properly before

00:45:18.500 real consequences were served? And effectively, at least for the past year, you were silenced

00:45:25.300 for 10 plus months or however long it's been now since the summer. You've been silenced. And over

00:45:31.460 there, Dan, unlike here, there hasn't been this robust digital channel that you can relatively easily,

00:45:38.060 you know, jump into and continue your voice. You know, you're really one of the first

00:45:42.520 trying to do this. I know Mark Stein, though he's up in Canada, he's also trying to do this.

00:45:48.740 But it's not as easy there as it is here. But it's maybe they knew that. That's one of the

00:45:53.840 reasons why the whole thing is so pernicious. Absolutely. And it's one of the reasons why

00:45:58.420 there has been such a desire to destroy GB News by the left in the UK. But that's why I think

00:46:05.720 GB News should have stood strong, actually, because the problem is, Megan, they've come

00:46:11.140 for me now. I've succeeded. Well, they're now going for Nigel Farage and trying to get

00:46:16.180 him taken off air. So they're going for the new number one host. This is what happens when

00:46:21.760 you empower these people. But I would say to Byline Times, what you're going to keep investigating

00:46:28.580 me, investigate what? You're going to keep on wasting police time. This is a witch hunt.

00:46:35.500 It is a smear campaign. People have seen through it. And I should say, Megan, that I have now

00:46:41.400 received a public apology and damages from the two biggest left wing newspapers in the UK,

00:46:49.180 The Guardian and The Daily Mirror, who followed up on Byline Times's reporting. So to be honest,

00:46:54.920 they can say whatever they want now. They can say whatever they want about me, because I can't

00:47:02.140 be cancelled now. I work for myself. Welcome to my world. I work for you. It's wonderful.

00:47:09.300 But that's what's wonderful, because truly, I know you. I've seen your scoops over the years.

00:47:14.080 You're very bold. You're unafraid, but you get massive scoops. You're not afraid. That's a

00:47:18.760 difference between you and so many. You're not afraid to report the truth on very powerful people.

00:47:24.920 Even if it's someone who's a part of the royal family, and that can make you a big target.

00:47:29.840 And you either need an organization behind you that's got a really steely spine,

00:47:33.620 or you need to be on your own. And that's the way of the future. And you're exactly where you

00:47:37.400 need to be. All right. There's much, much more to get to. We haven't even touched on Kate Middleton.

00:47:41.880 And more besides that, because Dan's got something he wants to talk about with respect to Johnny Depp,

00:47:47.240 who sued Dan. So it's like, Dan, you're in the middle of every story. Stand by. We're going to get to

00:47:52.460 it all. Quick break first. All right, Dan. So first of all, you're going to launch a show

00:48:01.040 like this show, like a podcast and YouTube. It's not yet there, but you're gearing up. But

00:48:06.700 how, like, can they, cause I went on there today. I'm going to subscribe. I'm going to pay money,

00:48:10.500 but today I just clicked, you know, give me the information. Um, so can they do it for free or

00:48:16.060 must they pay or just like, let's get the audience involved and how they can connect with you.

00:48:19.300 No, I mean, look, I really believe in building this community. I understand how times are really

00:48:25.940 tough for a lot of people. So it's absolutely imperative for me that the content is free,

00:48:31.260 but of course, if you can afford to help me build this community, have a little bit more access with

00:48:37.860 me than I would love that. But no, the show will be available far and wide and free.

00:48:44.720 Oh, I love it. And I love, love, love it. You're getting back on your feet. That's the best part.

00:48:48.660 That is the best part. You know, it's like the, um, I remember when Brit Hume retired at Fox news,

00:48:54.100 I had a picture of the two of us and Brett bear on a roller coaster at the mall of America in, um,

00:49:00.520 Minnesota, where we had all gone for the Republican national convention one year.

00:49:04.540 And it's one of those great pictures where we're all sort of smiling and yelling as we start the

00:49:09.460 descent after going over the top. And I wrote to him something to the effect of, um, sometimes the

00:49:15.300 best part comes after the climb, you know, and I think that's true. I really believe that's true

00:49:21.100 in many ways. And I think you're going to start to feel that, right? Like you have a new climb to do,

00:49:25.480 but you established yourself as a national international star and respected journalist.

00:49:31.360 And now you get to do it on your own terms, which is going to be wonderful to watch.

00:49:37.780 Yeah. I'm so excited about that. And look, so many of the people who I hugely respect in this

00:49:42.900 industry, you being, uh, one Megan have had these real lows where you question what you're doing

00:49:50.840 and you feel betrayed by so many. And it's actually the strength of the audience, the viewers that pulls

00:49:58.540 you through, because that's actually who I do this for. You know, I never did this for the billionaires

00:50:04.460 who were signing my paycheck. I did it for the viewers because I believe there was such a significant

00:50:11.080 gap in the market here in the UK, because the media here is just hard left, you know,

00:50:17.840 everywhere because we have the British bashing corporation, woke ITV, sly news. So I believe now

00:50:24.420 that I've got to take this independent and I've got an opportunity to do it. I know it's not going

00:50:30.600 to be easy, but I'm super excited now. And I do feel right on my feet.

00:50:36.320 You're a pioneer and Russell Brand. I forgot to mention him, even though I had my problems with

00:50:40.920 him. I, I love that he's out there speaking. I know where world would ever want to see his

00:50:44.840 platform taken away from him based on allegations that are so old and all that stuff. So he's also

00:50:49.780 out there making news, uh, every day. Okay. Johnny Depp, the audience may not be aware,

00:50:56.080 but he sued you. He sued you for reporting. You did on the Amber Heard allegations against him.

00:51:02.020 And the audience may remember before he brought his defamation case against her

00:51:05.700 here domestically, he started in the UK and Dan was on the receiving end of that.

00:51:11.660 And there Johnny Depp did not prevail. And then he came over here and he did prevail.

00:51:18.880 It usually goes the other way because in the UK, it's easier to prove defamation

00:51:22.720 than it is here in the United States, especially when there's a public figure involved. But

00:51:27.500 you, you were in kind of an interesting spot there because, you know, I don't know,

00:51:34.040 maybe some people normally would have expected you to kind of take his side, but you were much more

00:51:37.820 like Amber Heard is brave. And, you know, I stand by my reporting that he was an alleged abuser.

00:51:43.240 And now you say you want to issue an apology to him. Why?

00:51:48.140 Yeah. So it was interesting. The court case in the UK, even though Amber was giving evidence,

00:51:54.680 it was actually me who was being sued. So she was giving evidence to support our case because she

00:52:03.140 knew if she won here, that would help her case in the US, although that didn't end up happening.

00:52:08.600 Now, I want to be really clear that what I'm about to say is not designed in any way to pile

00:52:16.060 more heartache or difficulties onto Amber Heard. Remember, she didn't want to be in court either,

00:52:22.900 Megan. It was Johnny who decided to take the case against me in the UK and her in the US. But what I

00:52:30.680 do want to do is apologize to Johnny for ever getting involved in the ins and outs of his personal

00:52:40.200 and clearly very toxic relationship. I have now seen, Megan, and we've spoken about it during the

00:52:46.600 first hour. Just what can happen when an ex has such an axe to grind, is so actuated by malice

00:52:55.980 that they will make up terrible things designed to destroy your career and destroy your life.

00:53:01.000 Now, by the way, I'm not saying that that's what Amber did, but we don't know, do we?

00:53:05.820 Well, that's what the jury said. Of course, the judge in the UK made a different decision. So I

00:53:13.100 think you could say it was a split decision. But it wasn't my role to get involved. If Amber

00:53:20.880 believed there had been abuse in that relationship, there was a criminal process she could have gone

00:53:26.180 through and there was a legal process that she could have gone through. I think the problem is

00:53:30.960 I got involved in the carnival of commentary. And actually, it was in a really unwitting way,

00:53:37.240 Megan, because my column wasn't even about Johnny Depp. It was actually about J.K. Rowling. You know,

00:53:42.400 I absolutely love J.K. Rowling. Now she's one of my heroes because she stands up for biological sex

00:53:47.380 and she's taken on the woke mob. But at the time, do you remember, she was leading the charge in the

00:53:53.620 Me Too movement and saying that all women should be believed. All women should be believed,

00:53:58.360 no matter what. That was J.K. Rowling's position. I don't remember her being one of those.

00:54:02.380 She was. But then she didn't sign up to that when it came to Johnny Depp. So I was calling out,

00:54:10.280 actually, my column was about calling out the hypocrisy of J.K. Rowling. Then unfortunately,

00:54:16.120 and this does happen on newspaper websites, a headline was put on the column that described

00:54:21.580 Johnny Depp as a wife beater that was never written by me. It didn't appear in the print newspaper,

00:54:26.160 you can imagine all hell broke loose as a result of that. But I think one of the big issues that we

00:54:31.960 have now, Megan, in the culture war is that so often we dig deep into our trenches. We don't take

00:54:39.760 a moment to look back at what we've done and think, actually, was that a mistake? And I guess I've had

00:54:45.900 the time to do that over the past six months. And I've thought a lot about it. And I do think I was

00:54:52.420 wrong to ever get involved. I don't think it was my business. And I think all I did was add extra

00:55:02.300 heartache to what was clearly a very troubled, very toxic relationship. Do I think Johnny Depp is a

00:55:09.620 perfect guy? Absolutely not.

00:55:13.220 I don't think even he would argue that.

00:55:14.700 No, but I just, look, I have lots of regrets over that. And I don't think enough journalists

00:55:22.760 talk about their regrets sometimes. So yeah, I was definitely wrong. It's something I wish that I

00:55:30.300 hadn't done, even though I would defend myself in saying it was very unwitting. Do you know what I mean?

00:55:36.840 I wasn't expecting to become the guy to go against Johnny Depp at all. But I think now I know

00:55:45.600 that you cannot just trust the word of an ex. You can't. Because some exes, because I now know from

00:55:55.900 personal experience, my ex was prepared to do anything to destroy me, Megan, anything. Going to

00:56:03.060 the police, making up stories, posting on X. He was prepared to do anything. So I just feel like

00:56:11.660 when relationships like this go wrong, it should be down to law enforcement to make the decision,

00:56:19.720 not social media and not the media itself. So I was definitely wrong on that.

00:56:26.760 Well, Dan, I appreciate you saying that. I feel the same. I'm constantly looking back at my own

00:56:31.040 positions and asking, how could I do better? What do I know now that would change my opinions?

00:56:36.740 And I really encourage everybody to do that. Because if you just stick with, I'm right today,

00:56:41.980 and I've always been right, then if you were wrong yesterday, and you're wrong today, you never have

00:56:46.380 any chance of being right tomorrow. You know, that's just the way it is. So self-reflection,

00:56:52.260 introspection, and a lot of humility will go a long way for every human, journalist or not,

00:56:58.040 in assessing their positions in this crazy world that we find ourselves in, especially with media.

00:57:03.140 So disjointed.

00:57:03.940 And the thing with Johnny, and I think this is where now I understand where he was coming from in a way

00:57:10.080 where maybe I didn't before, is the reason that he decided to bring the cases, Megan, is because

00:57:16.360 he felt like his career had been unfairly taken away from him because the Hollywood studios would no

00:57:24.280 longer book him for the big movies. And obviously, there's a lot of similarities to me in that

00:57:29.680 position. I feel like my career was unfairly taken away from me based on total lies. And so even though

00:57:37.540 everyone's telling you, because everyone's telling me now, Dan, you've got this wonderful life,

00:57:42.180 you've got the best partner, you've got an amazing family, you know who your true friends are,

00:57:47.700 why on earth would you want to carry this on? But the problem is, you sort of have this overwhelming

00:57:54.120 desire to clear your name because you know that what's being said about you just isn't true. And

00:58:00.440 I think that's why Johnny pursued the court case, even though at the time I thought it was a real

00:58:07.060 mistake. And I guess after the UK result, you could argue that it was a mistake, but obviously he did

00:58:11.660 turn it around in the US. You know, I don't know, I also have a belief that whether it's God,

00:58:18.400 a higher power, the universe, or just you, somehow things work out the way they're supposed to.

00:58:25.660 And sometimes we, at some level, bring these things upon ourselves, because we know we have a lesson to

00:58:32.380 learn. You know, I, I think back even on my own time before my cancellation, my very public

00:58:37.560 cancellation, um, sort of, sort of at Fox. I mean, I, I wasn't canceled by Fox. They offered me a big

00:58:42.760 deal to stay, but many on the right were very angry with me. Some remain angry with me or a core MAGA

00:58:47.720 can't forgive me for the question I asked of Trump. I ask for no forgiveness. I stand by my questioning

00:58:52.720 100%. But certainly then what happened at NBC, I think to myself, did I need to be knocked down?

00:59:00.740 You know, was I getting too full of hubris or, you know, too confident or, you know, not humiliate,

00:59:08.260 not, not full of enough humility to where I was questioning my positions and leaving room for the

00:59:14.820 idea that I wasn't right about everything, you know, or that I should just be a little bit more

00:59:19.940 generous toward others in the way I approach the news. And I do sort of think that's one of my

00:59:24.400 takeaways. When I emerged after all of that, I came out more humble and I, I am definitely different

00:59:30.100 than I was back in 2016 and for the better, but you don't get there without being really honest

00:59:37.180 with yourself and owning your mistakes, Dan. So kudos to you. And it's brutal. I mean, it is a

00:59:42.100 brutal experience. Jordan Peterson says that cancellation, really the only thing that's worse

00:59:47.640 than cancellation, according to Jordan Peterson is, is receiving a fatal diagnosis. And I understand

00:59:54.460 what he means because it touches every single part of your life. And it's amazing, Megan, and I'm sure

01:00:02.100 you found this, how many people run, they run at the first sign of trouble. And I think the great thing

01:00:10.480 is now is I know that the people who I have around me, and obviously there's a lot less, there's a lot

01:00:17.240 fewer people there than there was, uh, last June, but I know they're going to be with me through

01:00:25.900 anything. And that matters. They're the best people, the ones who stay with you. It's funny because I

01:00:32.660 never thought like, who's, who's wanting to go out with me or have cocktails or stay in touch with me

01:00:38.580 when I was on Fox or NBC, because I'm on TV. I never really even considered it. You know,

01:00:44.280 I just sort of take people at their word and you go forward or you don't, you connect or you don't,

01:00:48.200 but when they fell away, you know, after I was quote canceled, then you have a time, you know, like

01:00:55.420 a period of months where you're like, Oh, Oh, that was fake. Oh, that person was really just about, you

01:01:00.420 know, wanting to bathe in my reflective light. And that's wonderful to weed those people out of your

01:01:05.740 life. That's another gift in a way you give to yourself in the cancellation process. Everyone should be

01:01:10.200 canceled at least once in their life. Highly recommend, although perhaps not as publicly and

01:01:14.200 traumatically as Dan and I have been. Okay. Let's get to the news of the day because I've been

01:01:19.120 dying to hear from you in particular on Kate Middleton. What in God's name is going on there,

01:01:26.800 Dan? Oh my goodness. Where do I start? Well, firstly, I think I'd put a little bit of background to it

01:01:34.020 and say there's been lots of changes behind the scenes, uh, in William and Kate's team,

01:01:40.240 very small team who look after these two people. And I don't think it's working is the first thing

01:01:48.720 that I would say, whatever you think about where the people are being too tough on Kate for posting

01:01:55.520 the photo or not. It's just not working at the moment. It was a little bit amateur hour. Whereas

01:02:02.400 previously you'll remember that when there was the big battle going on with Charles versus Harry and

01:02:08.420 Megan versus William and Kate, they had these slick and amazing PR teams and they were almost

01:02:14.120 treating each other like Hollywood stars. And it was a big battle. And I've, I've tried to move away

01:02:20.020 from that. And I think it backfired, but what I would say, Megan, and I know this Kate is very

01:02:27.500 unwell. She is physically unwell. So there should surely be a little bit of sympathy towards her.

01:02:37.460 And I'm really not seeing much of that online. And I think people are loving it just a little bit

01:02:46.120 too much. Now, of course, there are lots of questions to ask about transparency. And one of the

01:02:52.020 things I'm most excited about Megan in terms of being independent is I can now report on the Royal

01:02:58.080 Family without having overlords who are really scared to do that. So what you will find in the UK

01:03:05.400 is that the newspapers essentially act as stenographers or PR operatives on behalf of the

01:03:11.220 Royal Family. Now, I don't think that's right. We pay these guys salaries. They deserve scrutiny.

01:03:17.660 So for example, you know, the photo of Kate looking not well in the car next to her mum,

01:03:24.120 Carol, which was published by TMZ in the US, not one UK newspaper published that picture. Now,

01:03:29.840 that's a little bit weird, isn't it? That's a little bit weird. She's, she's a public figure.

01:03:33.820 She was out in public. Why would they not publish the picture? At the same time, Kate is not well at the

01:03:41.800 moment. There are reasons why she doesn't want to appear in public. I think turning it into an

01:03:51.040 international meme is just a little bit mean. And I especially want to call out Harry and Megan's team

01:03:57.620 who used this as an opportunity to brief to their favourite journalists at the New York Post that,

01:04:04.400 oh, this is not a mistake that Megan would ever have made. I'm sorry. Have you seen the pictures,

01:04:10.640 Megan, of Prince Harry, the official pictures of Prince Harry with Megan, where all of a sudden,

01:04:15.900 he has a full head of hair. So do not tell me, do not tell me that Harry and Megan do not Photoshop

01:04:23.480 their photos. They do. And in some ways, is there not something quite sweet about the fact that Kate

01:04:30.300 is just like the rest of us. You know, she's there on a little mobile phone using one of those dodgy

01:04:36.380 apps, trying to make it look a bit better. No, I don't believe that, though. But that's what,

01:04:40.400 I don't believe that. And I think a lot of people don't. I don't believe she even sat for that picture.

01:04:43.600 I don't think that's, I don't think that's a real picture that she just edited. Yes, I think it's

01:04:47.860 an amalgamation of other shots involving the family. I don't know exactly how she did it. But look,

01:04:53.680 when you, there's that one picture we've seen of Kate that you just referenced that TMZ put out

01:04:57.240 like two weeks ago is the beginning of March. And she's in the passenger seat over in the UK,

01:05:01.820 that would be our normal driver's seat. And her mom is driving the car and she looks puffy. Her face

01:05:07.740 looks round and it's usually very angular and awesome. But she looks puffy, like, like something's

01:05:14.660 wrong. Like she had, you know, I mean, I think about when I just had my kids, I got super swelled up

01:05:19.660 like a, like a tick and I was puffy all over. That's just how she looked to me. And there's no way

01:05:25.900 this picture that they put out two weeks later is present day. I don't believe it. She's got all

01:05:30.300 the angles back. We played yesterday how it's identical to the shot that was on the cover of

01:05:35.880 British Vogue. I mean, identical. And there's all sorts of theories about how they did it,

01:05:41.220 but I don't personally, my own personal belief is she did not sit for that photo. And the real

01:05:44.980 question is how unwell is she that she can't sit for a photo with her three children that she would

01:05:49.620 control, that she could Photoshop, that she could cover up herself with something's going on.

01:05:55.900 Well, something is going on. I mean, something very much is going on. She's, she's not well,

01:06:02.540 but in terms of the photo, I'm not sure. I agree. Certainly wasn't the Vogue magazine cover

01:06:08.100 that's been debunked and the kids do look older. The kids do look older from when that previously

01:06:14.920 been seen. But I think where Kate and William, to be honest, and you know, I'm fans of both of

01:06:22.520 there, Megan, but where they've been incredibly naive is this is 2024. You can't just disappear

01:06:31.340 for four months, Kate. You just can't, especially not when the King, who is battling very serious

01:06:39.100 cancer, is still out there being seen, meeting with the prime minister, attending church.

01:06:45.600 So I think there is a real naivety about the management behind the scenes of the royal family.

01:06:53.020 And sometimes this is when you need a strong courtier. And you know, we've spoken a lot about

01:06:58.160 the courtiers, Megan, in terms of Harry and Megan, and you know, they were, they were all at war and

01:07:02.740 Harry hated all of William's courtiers, but they were strong people and they would stand up to the

01:07:07.120 royal family and that tell them what they needed to do. Sometimes the problem is now Kate saying,

01:07:12.920 I'm not going to be seen for four months just doesn't fly. This is the world of social media.

01:07:17.600 And I think what's fascinating to me, and again, it sort of ties into where I'm going, is that

01:07:21.800 the newspapers don't control the narrative anymore. The newspapers are dying. So the newspapers might be

01:07:28.180 doing this PR job for Kate and saying, leave her alone. But the problem is that's not what the rest

01:07:33.260 of the world is saying. That's not what the internet is saying.

01:07:35.520 She's too big a star. There are armchair investigators all across the world looking at this now.

01:07:42.700 For all six news agencies to pull that photo within hours of it hitting showed how, how much

01:07:48.700 of an amateurist job it was done. And I'm telling you, Dan, I've got my own suspicions. I know you've

01:07:52.860 got sources and so on, but I'm not in that position, but there's no way, like when you Photoshop a photo,

01:07:59.860 honestly, for me, the most I'll do is like change the, the setting on it. You know, you can do like

01:08:04.440 add light or put it on dramatic or what, you know, you can do like, I'll do that sometimes just to

01:08:09.920 make it look a little prettier, but I've never done filters. I've never done anything like that.

01:08:13.400 And I've certainly never done anything where like I changed the kid's sweater to where the arm doesn't

01:08:16.680 fit anymore. Like that thing was heavily manipulated. And the question is why I don't believe she sat

01:08:21.760 for a photo with the three children. I think it's because you're saying she's unwell, but here's the

01:08:25.660 question. The audience is going to wonder how unwell, you know, because as you know, forgive me,

01:08:31.180 there are people online who believe she may, she may no longer be with us. And I realized that's absurd

01:08:36.460 conspiracy stuff. Yeah. I mean, look, I can absolutely tell you she's alive. There are

01:08:41.960 reasons why she doesn't want to appear in public that are to do with physical appearance. I think

01:08:48.760 what I would say though, and I'm not trying to undermine at all what's going on because I would

01:08:55.640 argue the Royal family is in arguably its biggest crisis in a generation. I mean, look at everything

01:09:03.500 that's happened since the death of the late queen 18 months ago. I mean, this is a disaster.

01:09:10.460 There's just been a suicide, a really grim suicide in, in the Royal family as well.

01:09:18.920 Who is that guy? Can you explain who that guy is, Dan? Cause I haven't.

01:09:22.660 Yeah, of course. He was, he was the husband of William's cousin. So, so, but you know,

01:09:26.600 someone who was close to William, William was at the funeral and, you know, there's, again,

01:09:31.480 there's lots of reasons behind why he shot himself in the head, but I'm just trying to

01:09:36.920 paint a picture of things are really difficult within the Royal family at the moment. Charles

01:09:41.440 has obviously wanted this job for his entire life and he has been struck down. There's a real cruel

01:09:49.860 irony to that. Camilla's not particularly well. Kate is very unwell. And so there's a lot resting

01:09:55.940 on the shoulders of Prince William at the moment. I guess what I'm certainly going to be thinking

01:10:03.680 about and having conversations about is what level of privacy people like Kate are entitled to,

01:10:11.660 because the newspapers in the UK had always made a decision that they do have a right to privacy.

01:10:17.420 And you've got to remember, I mean, the late queen was literally dying of blood cancer, Megan,

01:10:25.040 and no one was told. We all knew, but we didn't report it out of respect to her. And her death

01:10:33.160 certificate said she died of old age. Prince Philip had battled cancer for years and years and years.

01:10:40.920 But of course there's a great contrast in Charles being this much more modern King and very open about

01:10:46.060 what he's going through compared to Kate. But I just think sometimes what you've got to think

01:10:51.240 about, Megan, is there are personal health issues which can be embarrassing to discuss that you don't

01:11:01.460 want the whole world knowing. And does Kate deserve that humiliation? Isn't it her choice if she wants

01:11:09.880 to share it or not? Obviously there's a real track record in the Royal family of some members

01:11:15.940 opening up about their health. Diana and Fergie being examples of that. Others, the queen,

01:11:21.560 the late queen and Prince Philip have kept it secret. So look, I think there's questions about

01:11:26.360 this, but what certainly is undeniable is that the Royal family is in the midst of a PR crisis.

01:11:33.660 There's literally no one there to do the work. And Harry and Megan are trying to capitalize on that.

01:11:41.900 But if you think William is going to allow them back in to take a prominent role, because you know,

01:11:49.660 they're already positioning themselves to try and ride back in as some sort of savior for the Royal

01:11:56.140 family. Let me tell you, Megan, it ain't happening. It's not going to allow it.

01:12:01.640 When Harry flew over to be with King Charles, he stayed for less than 24 hours. It was,

01:12:06.580 he didn't even see Prince William. It was, you know, pretty clear that Charles didn't want to

01:12:11.300 spend any time with him. Charles did not want to spend the time with Harry. And what does that tell

01:12:17.560 you? So can I just ask one other question? There's something quite grim about flying over

01:12:24.180 once your dad's got cancer. Oh, he made it all about himself, just like they always do. But wait,

01:12:29.640 quick, quick question before we go. Do you believe based on what you know, that Kate Middleton is

01:12:33.960 going to be okay? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's good to hear. And I have one other question that my

01:12:40.460 husband, Doug and I were discussing this morning. Why is she still referred to as Kate Middleton?

01:12:43.900 Isn't she now Kate Windsor? Well, she hates it. She hates it and I'm guilty of it. So she believes

01:12:51.560 that she should only be referred to as Catherine now or the princess of Wales. But again, I find that

01:12:59.020 difficult. I mean, she's Kate, isn't she? We grew up with her as Kate, but no, she hates being called

01:13:04.840 Kate. And of course the poor woman has had to deal with her uncle. I love her uncle, Megan. He used to

01:13:11.080 come on my show, Gary Goldsmith, but he just went on a big reality show. Yes, we covered that.

01:13:16.180 Yeah, I was listening to you the other day. Yeah. And he calls himself the buncle short for bad

01:13:21.400 uncle. Yeah. And it's just like, oh my goodness, Kate will be thinking, I don't need this. So look,

01:13:27.680 it's not a good time. I'm going to switch to Catherine. I'm not going to lie. I'm not going

01:13:31.100 to stop speculating about her health because she's one of the biggest stars in the world,

01:13:35.460 one of the most famous people in the world. And that's the downside to it. And I'm sorry,

01:13:38.580 but I do wish her well. And I'm going to try to call her Catherine from now on. I think her name

01:13:43.060 is Catherine Windsor. After the marriage, she's technically Catherine Mountbatten Windsor,

01:13:48.000 unless she kept Middleton, which I don't think she did. All right, Dan, I got to go.

01:13:52.620 I am thrilled to see you again. And I can't wait for the next chapter. Make sure you check out Dan

01:13:59.040 Substack at Dan Wooden Outspoken. Is it in my prompter? Spell your last name, Dan.

01:14:05.520 Yeah. So it's W-O-O-T-T-O-N. So danwoodenoutspoken.com. Or you can search me on Twitter

01:14:13.860 and YouTube and all of all of those apps. Okay. Because the show is coming soon. I need to have

01:14:19.560 you on, Megan, of course. Anytime. Consider it done. Thank you so much. All right. Lots of love and

01:14:26.220 lots of luck. Okay. Don't go away. We've got much, much more. I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan

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01:15:30.560 Are you one of those parents racing from soccer practice to ballet to SAT prep every day? Here's

01:15:38.860 your sign that you should probably stop. A new book called Family Unfriendly, how our culture

01:15:44.640 made raising kids much harder than it needs to be. It's shining a light on the dangers of

01:15:50.300 overscheduling and overworking our children. And it's out next week, available right now for pre-order.

01:15:55.900 I think you'll find it absolutely fascinating and a very fast and fascinating read. Best-selling

01:16:02.280 author and Washington Examiner columnist, Timothy Carney joins me now. Tim, welcome to the show.

01:16:08.080 Hey, thank you for having me.

01:16:09.860 Thank you for writing this book. Um, this, you know, I've told a story before, but Steve Forbes's

01:16:14.780 wife, I saw her when I was about eight months pregnant with my first child. And she's got,

01:16:18.260 I don't know, like eight children. I can't remember. It's a big number. And I was like, um,

01:16:22.340 so what do you, you know, any, any vice, whatever. And she said, uh, read nothing,

01:16:26.620 go on instinct. And, and honestly, that was largely correct. But what I love about this book

01:16:32.460 is it kind of takes what I think is most people's instinct puts it on paper and reassures them

01:16:38.520 that they're right to not listen to the nonsense that's being written everywhere. And the conventional

01:16:44.640 wisdom that has developed that junior needs to be in 10 different clubs and three different sports

01:16:50.660 and getting A's and A pluses in order to have any sort of a future ahead of him or her at all.

01:16:56.580 That's really what you're trying to get to. Absolutely. If you, if you feel guilty that

01:17:02.080 you're not running around like the biggest tiger mom in the world, the main thing you're doing wrong

01:17:07.760 is feeling guilty about it. And one of, one of the things I saw three things going on. Um, you know,

01:17:13.520 I'm a journalist. I go around the country. I study the social science, three phenomena that were

01:17:18.220 happening. One is a falling birth rate. Two is record high childhood anxiety. And three,

01:17:25.000 a ton of parents being much more stressed than our parents were. And so I thought, okay,

01:17:30.300 we're going to figure out what's behind it. And some people just said it's economics,

01:17:33.060 but that, that argument doesn't quite work. And I, in, in the book, I walked through the economics,

01:17:38.180 how it does and doesn't add to stress and lower the birth rate. Really, it's about our culture.

01:17:43.120 That's why the subtitle is about our culture, making raising kids much harder than it needs to be.

01:17:47.720 The, the, the helicopter culture, the overambitious parenting culture,

01:17:51.320 the effect that technology has on our culture, even mating and dating culture,

01:17:55.500 as well as the values of our culture. They're all adding to these three problems of childhood,

01:18:00.160 anxiety, parental stress, and a falling birth rate.

01:18:04.320 I, I know this on an instinctive level. I think a lot of parents do. As I said,

01:18:08.080 I was thinking about just the other day, um, a conversation we had in our family and my,

01:18:13.560 my kids, they're not yet in high school, but they're saying, what'd you get on the SAT?

01:18:17.960 I said, I'm embarrassed to tell you, but then we started laughing. I did average. That's how I did

01:18:23.960 in the SAT. And, um, we started laughing. I'm like, you know what? All I really cared about in high

01:18:28.880 school was having friends, having a boyfriend and enjoying myself. You know what, Tim, it worked out

01:18:33.800 just fine. And I joke with my mom to this day. She swears that I did not play freshman field hockey

01:18:39.860 at my school. And I was on the team. I was on the team the whole season and I was not bad.

01:18:45.540 And she's like, you lie. You would, did not do freshman field. I'm like, mom,

01:18:49.040 I had to get the yearbook photo to prove to my mother. I did this. Why? Because she was the

01:18:54.500 opposite of a helicopter. She had no idea what I was doing. And I turned out well, not despite all that,

01:19:02.360 but I think you make a pretty good argument because of it, at least in part.

01:19:06.040 Exactly. And so one of the worst things I encountered in researching this book was

01:19:11.020 sociologists saying, well, families are shrinking because parents are choosing quality over

01:19:16.780 quantity. Now this bugged me first of all, because my wife and I, we have six kids and I don't think

01:19:21.340 we're sacrificing quality, but we are, if you use their definition of quality, which is heavy

01:19:26.920 investment in every kid. Now, if by investment, you mean, you know, total love, unconditional love

01:19:33.960 and willingness to sort of give up your lives for your kids. Yes. We invest everything in our

01:19:39.280 kids. But if you mean tutors, tons of extracurriculars, travel sports, no, we don't do

01:19:44.800 that at all. In fact, in the book, I talk about missing some of my son's baseball games,

01:19:50.480 basically on purpose. I love baseball. And, and when we pull them off of the travel teams,

01:19:55.000 we should talk about that. When we pull them off of the travel team and put them on the local rec team,

01:19:58.640 it was the most fun he or we had at all, but also we didn't feel we had to be there. We didn't feel

01:20:04.680 we have to watch every single moment because the point of baseball isn't going to just be that,

01:20:10.480 you know, we can be there if he gets a game winning RBI, or we're going to build him up to be a D1

01:20:14.940 athlete, but that it's fun. And if I wanted to be walking in the woods with my other kids,

01:20:19.520 that's just as good a time. Or, you know what? I want to, at one of his best games ever, I just said,

01:20:24.440 I need to get some rest. And I went to bed early and he came home screaming about how great it was.

01:20:29.020 And it was fine that we missed it. The idea that you have to be hovering over your kids,

01:20:33.060 either to see their every accomplishment or to protect them from imaginary evils.

01:20:37.280 These are the things that are just making parenting so hard. And they trickle down through

01:20:41.160 the media. They trickle down through just expectations in the culture. And some,

01:20:46.000 some of these things happen because people have fewer kids. They have fewer kids. And so they

01:20:50.680 helicopter a lot more. Can you tell me the travel team story? That sounds interesting.

01:20:55.560 So this is actually chapter one of the book starts, well, we let our son try out for travel

01:21:02.840 sports. It was a mistake. I think I only did it because I thought he wouldn't make the team,

01:21:06.860 but then he makes the team. And they say, and this is baseball. And they say,

01:21:12.240 January indoor practices for 12 year olds. Okay. Baseball supposed to start in the spring,

01:21:18.440 not in January. 12 year olds shouldn't need these intensive practices. But the most important thing was the

01:21:23.900 first thing the coach said to my boy says to the whole team, baseball, isn't fun. Winning baseball

01:21:31.180 it's fun to 12 year olds. And so they go ahead and they're not very good. They're coming off of a

01:21:37.520 COVID lockdown. A lot of them hadn't played and the coach starts yelling at them, not for being lazy or

01:21:42.040 anything, but just for dropping balls. And it was just, it was absolutely amazing to me that these

01:21:48.140 parents, these coaches, these adults had forgotten the point of youth sports. And then I realized that

01:21:54.040 the travel team trap is endemic. It's all over. Sometimes it's overambitious parents. Sometimes

01:21:59.480 it's parents who just say, Oh, I want the best quality competition for my kids. That's a, that's a

01:22:03.620 good instinct. But then they're spending weekends at tournaments in Delaware. Their kids are starting

01:22:08.280 to associate their own value with how they do in the sports. And so I looked at the studies

01:22:14.060 physiologically, not surprising a lot more injury for injuries, for kids who specialize, you know,

01:22:19.220 you throw out your arm. If you're pitching nine months a year, you bust your knee. If you're playing

01:22:22.900 basketball 10 months a year, but more importantly, these kids were sadder. They had a lower estimation

01:22:29.600 of their own worth of their own athletic ability. If they were specializing, why? Because they kept

01:22:35.520 climbing the ladder and then suddenly they look around and they realize, wait, I dedicated my life to

01:22:39.940 being the best shortstop in my County. And I'm the 20th best just in my County, in my own age group.

01:22:46.780 And for kids to fail is actually good, but for kids to fail at something to which they've staked

01:22:52.180 their value as an individual is horrible. And that's what parents do when they invest so much,

01:22:57.480 even in the academics, which is the most important, even in that, if the parents invest everything in

01:23:01.900 the kids' sports or academics or violin, then the kids start to think that their value

01:23:07.220 is in their success in those things. And we just have to reject that and make sure that parents

01:23:13.400 are showing kids your value is infinite and it's totally independent of what you might accomplish

01:23:18.080 in this world. Yes. I love all of this. It's like you try to raise your kid. I definitely see parents

01:23:25.760 who are trying to get either a do-over through their kids or just to build up their own egos through

01:23:30.940 their kids. Like the kid getting into the right Ivy is a positive reflection on them or being captain

01:23:37.220 of the whatever team is a reflection on that. As opposed to here's a person that my spouse and

01:23:42.740 I have brought into this world who we just want to love and nurture and create the right values

01:23:48.060 within and then let him or her flourish in whatever way makes sense for them. It doesn't reflect on me

01:23:53.400 at all. We have to live our own lives. We have to achieve our own. We have to stroke our own egos,

01:23:57.860 not do it through our children. Well, and some children, some parents so end up in the over

01:24:04.420 ambitious parenting, the travel team trap through almost no fault of their own, except like us,

01:24:10.040 you sort of weren't paying attention. Some parents just say, I want to put my kid in Little League,

01:24:14.220 but all the good players are playing travel baseball. And so nobody can throw a strike.

01:24:17.920 Some parents told me, well, I just wanted him to have a chance to make the JV squad.

01:24:21.600 And the coach has said, we don't even consider you unless you're playing on our travel squad.

01:24:26.460 And that's part of why I call it a trap. You don't have to be a parent with all your

01:24:30.120 priorities out of order to fall into this. And it's the same with helicoptering. I know parents

01:24:35.520 in our neighborhood who have said they're so glad that our kids play on the front yard because

01:24:39.780 they've been shamed for letting their kids wander around the neighborhood by somebody who says,

01:24:44.460 well, you know, you some anything could happen. And so there's a people who wrongly believe

01:24:49.720 there's kidnappers, skilled kidnappers around every corner. But then there's people just say,

01:24:53.560 I don't want to, I don't want to be shunned by my neighbors. And so I'm going to put the leash on

01:25:00.280 my kids as well. And so a lot of the culture just makes it harder for parents to make the right choice

01:25:07.100 for their children. And the right choice is often more freedom, more pickup basketball and less,

01:25:11.800 you know, travel basketball. These, the, as you're saying, the instincts that most parents have are

01:25:16.740 right. And the culture is dragging them away. The book is called Family Unfriendly. It's by Tim

01:25:23.800 Carney. You can pre-order right now. Let's help Tim get up on the New York Times bestseller list. So

01:25:28.800 it can stay in the rotation of how to raise a well child because his kids are coming up along our kids.

01:25:34.940 And if we can fight back against this cultural madness, we want to. Part of the problem I've noticed is

01:25:40.900 if you don't schedule your kids afternoon, they're not going to be doing anything because, and that's

01:25:47.060 fine. I mean, like they can hang out and read or whatever, but they're not going to be playing with

01:25:49.940 a friend because everyone's child is in something. No one's ever, ever available. Like everybody's

01:25:56.740 always in a, this board or this tutoring or this extra school after school. Like it's not like when

01:26:02.460 we were kids, when my main memories are exploring the woods by myself in Syracuse, New York, in the

01:26:09.520 single digits, like talk about abduction territory. If you wanted your kid to be abducted, that'd be a

01:26:18.100 good place to put her. We're, we're the same generation. Our parents said, uh, the most common

01:26:24.000 phrase I heard was, okay, just be home when the streetlights come on. Or if you want to eat, be home

01:26:29.280 by dinnertime was a lot of what I was told. And sometimes we got lost and we didn't get home for

01:26:33.640 dinnertime. I remember once having to stop by the local reverend's house to be like, yeah, we got

01:26:37.820 lost. We just got back into town. My parents aren't giving me dinner. Do you have any leftovers? This

01:26:42.660 was, you know, and our parents weren't doing it wrong. And, but again, the cultural expectations on

01:26:49.440 this and it's, so that's why you really have to be counter-cultural and you really do have to lead.

01:26:54.220 And that's one of the things I'm trying to establish, accomplish with this book is saying, okay,

01:26:58.000 you have to be the first parent to just let your kid wander the neighborhood and then communicate

01:27:02.600 loudly. Hey, we're letting our kids wander the neighborhood. It will be more fun if you guys

01:27:06.820 do it. And we promise it will be fun. And you know, they're free, they're free many days. Like

01:27:11.960 let the other parents know, these are the days that they don't have anything going on and would

01:27:15.460 love to just play. Even, even the older kids, of course, most people do this, but they're young

01:27:19.140 ones like schedule play dates so that they can hang out. But as they get older, we just keep

01:27:24.020 filling their days with more activities and that is actually damaging.

01:27:30.460 It is. And so the, uh, we've recently had the American journal of pediatrics ran an op-ed

01:27:34.760 saying that the number one cause of the rise in childhood anxiety is the lack of independent play

01:27:41.300 free from supervision by adults. But another reason that adults overschedule their kids is because

01:27:47.680 one parent just said, well, the, my favorite thing about travel sports is it's the only thing that

01:27:52.620 gets my daughter off of social media and off of her smartphone. And so this is another place that

01:27:57.940 parents need support. And I always talk about support and culture because sometimes a conservative

01:28:03.800 like me thinks, okay, the whole thing is about nuclear family. Good parents can protect you from

01:28:08.380 bad things, but it's so much harder to keep your kids off social media if all of their friends are

01:28:15.020 using it. And so what do we do? We get together since, uh, you talked about a do-over when you have six

01:28:20.200 kids, you get a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth chance. And with our younger children, we get together

01:28:25.000 with their friends, uh, parents as early as possible and say, we are never giving these girls cell phones.

01:28:31.760 We are never giving these boys smartphones. They might get a dumb phone to text with, but you don't have

01:28:36.800 to do it either. You'll probably regret it if you do it. And guess what? Building that support, having schools

01:28:43.480 that don't allow the phones in school, that's all the community support, the cultural support that parents

01:28:48.880 need to keep their kids off of the social media.

01:28:52.320 I love that you say in the book, um, hold on, I wrote it down. This is the pork shoulder

01:28:56.740 analogy. Raising kids is a bit like smoking pork shoulder. It's not going to be quick and you do need to

01:29:03.440 check the thermometer from time to time, but you'll get the best outcome if you avoid constantly lifting

01:29:07.720 the lid and prodding the meat.

01:29:10.460 And I'm glad you said that. I need to remember that too. I'm just remembering this morning I was prodding

01:29:14.940 my son a little too much. It's, uh, it's easy to fall into that trap, but again, kids need

01:29:20.400 independence and even boredom. Boredom can be a good thing, but again, just sort of making up your

01:29:26.140 own games as you're running around the neighborhood, that's really good for their health. And there's a

01:29:31.100 lot of reasons I think our culture doesn't like that. Part of it is again, with fewer kids, parents

01:29:35.440 are more likely to think I can accomplish their outcome. But a lot of it is the secularization of our

01:29:41.600 culture, Megan, where people, the only thing that they see as having value is worldly success.

01:29:49.380 And what they see as their, the point of raising kids is getting them into Harvard or Dartmouth or

01:29:54.940 Princeton. While if you take a supernatural approach and an approach of most religions,

01:30:00.600 you would think, okay, this child is made in the image of God. I'm going to raise them and love them

01:30:05.020 and they have value no matter what. And so in a world that doesn't have, that doesn't have as much

01:30:10.340 God in it, we're much more likely to have this materialistic view of parenting, which leads to

01:30:15.960 the overambitious parenting. That is so true. And you, you spent some time on that talking about how

01:30:21.500 basically the only people who are still having children are the religious ones.

01:30:25.760 I overstayed it, but the more religious you are, the more likely that you are to have some more

01:30:31.620 children. And I don't think it's about the great homilies about the value of children. Sorry to,

01:30:37.660 you know, any of my, my pastors who have, who have given great homilies. And it's not even

01:30:41.820 specifically about the church teaching. It's mostly about the fact that church communities,

01:30:46.560 they build sort of institutions of civil society. They give you a place to bring your kids. They

01:30:53.960 give you role models. If you go to church, there's somebody 10 years older than you who has three

01:30:58.740 kids and you think, oh, I can do that. I remember sitting behind a pew of a family with six kids

01:31:02.920 thinking when we had just a baby. And I thought, I can't imagine how I can do that, but I know I can,

01:31:07.880 because that's just a normal guide. That's where we got our babysitters from. And then finally,

01:31:12.480 it's just realigning your values and realigning your values from the worldly to the idea that you,

01:31:18.380 you're going to love other people. One way, one way I put it is, well, the Bible tells us to feed

01:31:23.900 the hungry and clothe the naked. I have hungry, naked people in my house when I wake up in the morning,

01:31:29.540 they're right there for me. And so that, yeah. So the religious communities, it's not just so that

01:31:36.240 they're, they're preaching, be fruitful and multiply. That was God's first commandment in the,

01:31:40.280 in the Bible, but it's more that it builds that community that parents need to support them and to,

01:31:46.920 to give them sanity, to give them mentoring, to give them camaraderie.

01:31:51.980 Well, not only that, but we do need additional humans. It's important. You know, we played the

01:31:58.160 soundbite a few weeks ago of Joy Reid, not understanding why it's a bad thing that we're

01:32:04.400 not reproducing at the rates that we used to, like, what do we need more people for? Basically,

01:32:08.380 there are real reasons why we need more people and we need to get the birth rate up. There are now

01:32:13.160 what you have in the book, something like there are more people in their sixties than there are

01:32:16.640 babies being born. Yeah. The more Americans in their sixties and there are under age 10,

01:32:22.240 there are fewer children in America today than there were at the last census. So what does this mean in

01:32:27.580 20 years? It means a working age population will flatline and that that's going to be bad. Maybe

01:32:33.560 artificial intelligence can replace it, but I don't necessarily want Google Gemini, you know,

01:32:38.420 fixing my leaky pipes in my house. We're going to need people.

01:32:42.460 Your pipes are going to start telling you how racist you are.

01:32:44.880 Exactly. And I think just babies make the world happier. That's what I believe. That's my experience.

01:32:50.480 And I do wrangle up social science data. It's kind of funny that you need to do that,

01:32:55.280 but that's sort of our habit here in DC in the journalism and think tank world is let's get the

01:33:00.140 stats to prove it. And at one point I realized what I was trying to prove was that when babies

01:33:04.400 are around, more people smile and are happy. That's pretty self-evident, but somehow we've

01:33:08.820 kind of forgotten that. And Joy Reid can ask, why do we need more babies?

01:33:12.620 No, these morons are like climate change. It would be irresponsible to have a child. Okay,

01:33:16.600 fine. You know, those people maybe shouldn't reproduce. It's fine. We'll be,

01:33:19.320 we'll be okay without them having more children. Back to the stats. You did have an interesting

01:33:23.420 one in here. And it was about the burnout rate of kids who were overtaxing with athletics,

01:33:27.920 with these incredible athletic demands at a young age. The quit rate is 70% across all youth sports

01:33:36.480 and burnout is a plague among young athletes. You go on to quote Adam Silver, who runs the NBA saying,

01:33:44.000 we're seeing a rash of injuries among young players. What our orthopedics are telling us,

01:33:48.400 he said, is that they're seeing wear and tear issues in young players that they didn't used

01:33:53.040 to see until players were much older. So you may be putting your kid in like, whatever it is,

01:33:59.240 you know, lacrosse, soccer, football, six days a week in order to make sure, you know, he's the best.

01:34:05.900 The odds of your child lasting past what seventh grade, if that's what you do to him are extremely slim.

01:34:13.340 Yeah. It's yeah. That's my final argument to would be travel team obsessive parent. Not that

01:34:20.140 there's anything wrong with the travel team, but specializers who think the point of youth sports

01:34:24.100 is excellence. My final argument is it doesn't work. You've got the injury threat there. And then

01:34:29.700 as a athletic director, I quote in the book saying some other kid who's more naturally athletic is

01:34:36.280 just going to pick up the sport at age 14 and beat your son for the starting job. So if you invested

01:34:40.920 age seven through 14 for him being the high school starting catcher, some other guys can

01:34:45.660 be like, Hey, baseball, that might be fun. Jacob deGrom, great Mets pitcher. He didn't pitch until

01:34:49.900 he was halfway through college, the U S goalie in the soccer team in the last world cup. He didn't

01:34:54.860 even start playing soccer until partway into high school. And so it's not going to work. And so if

01:35:00.740 you're not going to believe me that, well, it disrupts a family culture and it's not good for their

01:35:06.280 mental health, at least realize you're not actually going to make your kid be Serena Williams by

01:35:11.540 putting them through this game. Roger Federer played soccer before he turned to tennis. Last

01:35:16.660 but not least, I use a chapter on the momosphere talking about this crazy fake curated life of

01:35:23.640 motherhood. That's all over Instagram. That's causing anxiety amongst parents and moms in particular.

01:35:31.040 What do you make of it? So there's two different sides of it. One is the parenting is just hell

01:35:37.520 Instagram and that gets tick tock. Those are really popular. But the other side is here's how

01:35:43.580 wonderful parenting can be. If you're exactly perfect, like me, if you're a ballerina who lives

01:35:48.800 in a farm and Oh, look how this shot, it's just, it's so spontaneous. And our kids are in their socks

01:35:54.440 in the front yard. And obviously it's a professional photographer. It was stage. This is what they do

01:35:58.800 professionally. That causes the sociologist use of term social comparison. Women look at that. And

01:36:05.960 it's mostly women who fall into this trap. Women look at that and say, I can't be that sort of a

01:36:10.080 mother. So maybe I just not up to raising children. And it adds to the anxiety and it makes more women

01:36:16.360 just feel, well, I don't think I can pull it off. You can't because it's fake and no one's pulling

01:36:22.320 that off. That's, and that's one of the points Tim makes in his book. Again, it's called family

01:36:26.940 unfriendly. It's by Tim Carney. Order it now. You'll be glad you did. Tim, all the best. Thank

01:36:32.160 you for writing this book. Thank you so much for having me on Megan. And don't forget to tune in

01:36:36.920 tomorrow because the ruthless fellas are back with us. And gosh, do we have a lot of news. Plus we might

01:36:41.480 have a decision in the Fannie Willis case. The judge said two weeks. That would be by Friday.

01:36:44.900 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 13, 2024

Kate Middleton's Health, Dan Wootton Speaks Out For First Time Since Cancelation, and Pressures on Parents, with Tim Carney ｜ Ep. 745

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