The Megyn Kelly Show - Katie Porter MELTDOWN, and Obama's Marriage Tension, with Sohrab Ahmari and Sean Davis, Plus Justice Gorsuch on America's 250th Birthday ｜ Ep. 1311

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00:01:00.440 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.140 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:15.420 There's new reporting on why Blake Lively showed up to the Met Gala alone

00:01:20.120 just hours after settling her lawsuit with Justin Baldoni for reportedly zero dollars.

00:01:27.340 It was a complete surrender. We'll get into what insiders to the couple are saying now about Ryan Reynolds skipping that event. Plus, Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch will be here next hour. I've been doing a deep dive on him in preparation for this, and there are so many fun facts about Justice Gorsuch that you did not know about, and his education.

00:01:49.280 And he was like an open conservative at Harvard Law School.

00:01:54.060 Imagine that.

00:01:54.980 I mean, truly, like, and obviously he's lived those principles.

00:01:58.100 So what does he think about conservatives in school today?

00:02:02.220 Should they play along?

00:02:03.760 Should they go along with the liberal professor's dogma in order to get the A?

00:02:09.060 You know, those who want to get into Harvard Law School, who better to ask than this guy?

00:02:13.380 He's a fascinating man, and he's got a new book out, too, which I think you're going to love in advance of our 250th birthday.

00:02:19.540 So stay tuned for that second hour.

00:02:21.260 But we start today with all the wild moments from last night's California gubernatorial debate. 1.00

00:02:26.440 Katie Porter is unhinged. 0.80

00:02:28.120 She is emotionally unregulated, and I am here for it. 0.92

00:02:31.980 She's our favorite.

00:02:33.700 Technically, we do want Steve Hilton to win.

00:02:35.500 But if we cannot have Steve, we definitely want it to be Katie.

00:02:38.640 Because if it's not Steve, let's face it, we'll be stuck with one of these Dems.

00:02:41.560 Might as well be somebody who entertains us. 1.00

00:02:44.160 From Porter blurting out, Donald Trump sucks. 1.00

00:02:48.680 to very clearly try to hold back tears. 1.00

00:02:53.240 What was it about?

00:02:54.260 Was it about homeless people?

00:02:55.620 Was it about drug-addicted Californians?

00:02:58.000 Was it about Californians who have been murdered by illegals?

00:03:00.440 No, it was about herself.

00:03:01.880 It was about her controversy over being emotionally unregulated and angry all the time.

00:03:06.800 That's what broke her.

00:03:08.280 Wait till you see this.

00:03:09.900 She was like, you could hear the voice crackling.

00:03:12.640 It was definitely a debate to remember. 0.99

00:03:15.100 Mail-in voting is already underway in this contest for who's going to run California in the gubernatorial House.

00:03:22.340 Gavin Newsom, time term limited, and he's got to go.

00:03:27.280 He may be all of our problems soon.

00:03:29.120 And somebody's got to take over the role.

00:03:30.660 The primary is June 2nd, and the top two candidates from this crowded field will go on to compete against each other in the general election.

00:03:39.060 There are two very strong Republicans in the race.

00:03:41.480 I mean, it's just a fantasy that both of them could be the top two.

00:03:44.260 and that, for sure, that would lead to a Republican running California.

00:03:48.000 But it's a fun fantasy.

00:03:50.080 Seven candidates, seven, were on stage last night.

00:03:52.500 According to the RCP average of all polls,

00:03:55.400 Republican Steve Hilton is in first place, as he has been from the beginning.

00:03:59.980 He's followed by billionaire Tom Steyer, a Dem,

00:04:03.560 Riverside County Sheriff Chad Bianco, a Republican who is in third.

00:04:08.100 In fourth place, former state attorney general

00:04:10.580 and former HHS Secretary to Joe Biden, Xavier Becerra.

00:04:15.860 In fifth, former U.S. Representative Katie Porter.

00:04:19.540 Keep an open mind, people.

00:04:21.340 And then there's San Jose Mayor Matt Mahan.

00:04:25.900 Former L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaregosa also made the debate stage last night,

00:04:32.520 but he's only pulling at 4%, so we don't really care about him.

00:04:35.220 The top two vote-getters, regardless of party, as I said,

00:04:38.060 will advance to the primary, well, in the primary to the general. And before the evening even began

00:04:44.480 yesterday, Katie Porter was already making headlines. Okay. So when did the, when did all

00:04:50.320 the stuff come out about her burning her husband with the mashed potatoes? It's like a year ago,

00:04:54.820 right? Maybe my team can check me. When we've, we came to realize that she was a very, very angry

00:05:01.340 lady and the videos surfaced of her, get the fuck out of my shot. And we started to really come to 0.98

00:05:06.720 understand who she was. I mean, this happened with the staff member back in July of 2021,

00:05:13.020 but I got to figure out when exactly it broke again. And it all came to our notice. Remember,

00:05:19.340 it was during the contest of this race because she sat down with that one reporter and she's

00:05:24.220 like, I'm calling it. I'm calling it. I'm not going to sit here for seven follow-ups. And then

00:05:29.020 that brought back up the July 2021 video of her berating a staffer. And so my point is simply,

00:05:35.400 It's been all this time since the staff member thing happened, since the story broke since she berated that reporter, all this time, and she's finally come around to the obvious fact that the only winning move was to make fun of herself.

00:05:53.500 OK, she's finally gotten that. But I regret to inform you, Sister Katie, it's too late. Now it just looks nakedly political because you put it in an ad, too. Whereas you should have done it in the moment when the controversy was happening.

00:06:12.340 you should have gone on SNL, this show, anywhere, and mocked yourself. I mean, I guess you could

00:06:20.820 make the argument, it's never too late, you know, better late than never, but I have to be honest,

00:06:27.000 I'm not feeling that. Maybe it's the execution. Okay, first, before we get to this, the moment

00:06:32.820 on tape that she is about to make fun of herself for, this is the original sin, July 2021.

00:06:40.160 one that we're going to lose more than half a million Californians dying prematurely to air 0.98

00:06:46.260 pollution and other problems and the state could lose get out of my fucking shot i wanted to tell 0.94

00:06:53.560 you that that's actually incorrect it's not that it's electric vehicles it's that if we don't need 0.74

00:06:58.700 the commitments under the paris climate accord okay it does okay you also were in my shop before

00:07:04.520 that. Stay out of my shot. Okay. I'm going to start again with electric vehicles saving us

00:07:11.920 money. Perfect. Okay. I've said before, I would not be happy if one of my team members got in my

00:07:21.340 live shot and then tried to correct something I had said. It wasn't live, I think was the point.

00:07:26.600 And this staffer thought she was saving Katie Porter from saying something dumb that was wrong

00:07:31.940 in a pre-taped exchange, and clearly Porter realized she could redo it, which she then did.

00:07:37.900 But that moment has haunted her because it dovetails with all the other things that we've

00:07:43.680 heard about her. You know, the Daily Mail did great reporting. By the way, this all was discussed and

00:07:48.460 came out in October of 2025. They've done great reporting on, you know, yeah, the fact that she

00:07:54.520 was apparently abusive to her ex-husband. He accused her of dumping scalding mashed potatoes

00:07:59.380 over his head. She can't control her emotions, my friends. So in any event, finally, we get around 0.99

00:08:09.500 to whatever that is, October to now, and what, eight months? And she's finally decided through

00:08:16.920 her team that as she runs for the governor's position, the best way to deal with that is to 0.90

00:08:22.740 mock it. You tell me whether she does that effectively in this ad. I'm Katie Porter, 1.00

00:08:27.940 and I'm not like most people who run for governor,

00:08:30.860 I actually get what you're going through.

00:08:33.160 A single mom of three kids,

00:08:34.880 I know what it's like to push the shopping cart.

00:08:37.180 My minivan has almost 200,000 miles.

00:08:40.680 I have a grown kid who may soon be living on my couch.

00:08:44.380 To give Californians what they need,

00:08:46.440 it's gonna take standing up to Donald Trump,

00:08:48.820 calling out greedy corporations,

00:08:50.700 and stepping on some toes along the way.

00:08:53.260 Now, could you guys please get out of my shot?

00:08:57.940 ha ha ha cue the hearty laughter by the people's holding signs behind her okay it's amazing that

00:09:07.860 like just being a normal person and like she wants props for going to the grocery store

00:09:13.760 how is this a job qualifier don't you all go i go to the grocery store all right i probably have

00:09:21.180 you know more money than katie porter i go like most normal people go to the grocery store

00:09:27.700 And you're not special that you have a minivan either. I mean, ours is a Chevy Suburban, but it's a large vehicle to get around our kids. Like, a lot of people have large vehicles to get around their children. She wants you to know it has 200,000 miles on it. Okay. I mean, great. That's good.

00:09:45.120 I'm not sure it makes you qualified to be governor of California, but she's trying to draw a distinction between herself and like Tom Steyer, who she's probably right, doesn't go to the grocery store and probably doesn't have that great a figure on, you know, how much things cost.

00:10:02.800 Right. Like, I get it. So, OK, that's one way in.

00:10:06.020 But the problem for Katie Porter is one of the reasons she's a single mom with three kids is because, again, according to the ex-husband, she threw those scalding hot potatoes at him and actually really burned him. 1.00

00:10:17.600 This is what he alleged, quote, he said that she went berserk.

00:10:22.120 This is not yet a quote.

00:10:23.060 He said she went berserk over the way he was preparing the mashed potatoes.

00:10:26.820 I mean, that's the problem.

00:10:27.700 Like, if you're not going to do them right, sir. 0.99

00:10:30.200 And she snapped, according to him, quote, can't you read the fucking instructions? 0.98

00:10:35.320 He then said that Porter raised, quote, a ceramic bowl of steaming hot potatoes and dumped it on my head, burning my scalp. 0.99

00:10:43.520 I mean, that is extreme.

00:10:45.560 Think of the number of times you've been really angry in your life.

00:10:49.820 I mean, of course, everyone's been there, especially like people you're dating or whatever, your spouse, they can drive you to your last nerve if you have a deep disagreement over something.

00:11:00.140 It can happen.

00:11:01.300 Have you ever considered burning them?

00:11:03.220 this is she's not a well person okay all right anyway back to last night porter was asked about

00:11:12.240 her new clever ad and watch watch where she becomes emotional it's again it's not about

00:11:19.940 anybody else who's suffering it's about poor katie californians can decide for themselves

00:11:26.560 about my temperament based on what they've seen here tonight and if these bullies these boys

00:11:32.800 bullying and bickering hasn't been enough to raise questions about their temperament i would

00:11:39.200 really challenge that we i have taken responsibility at this point hundreds of times and that's

00:11:45.900 appropriate because i made a bad decision and i treated someone badly i apologized five years ago

00:11:53.300 for it and we worked together for four more years what i haven't heard is the people on this stage

00:11:59.780 who have made other bad decisions and other mistakes and other failures of leadership.

00:12:06.440 Not one of them, not one of these men have said in this entire campaign, I've made a mistake.

00:12:13.500 And what that ad is about, Caitlin, is about showing that I can laugh at myself. I can hold

00:12:19.960 myself to account and I have the fitness, the temperament and the best ideas to be governed.

00:12:25.260 Okay. It doesn't work when you're explicitly telling us what the marketing managers wanted

00:12:33.860 to convey. What that shows you is that I can laugh at myself. Okay. It shows my sense of humor.

00:12:41.520 No, no, no. You had to go with like what the message overall was supposed to be. It shows

00:12:48.300 that I understand what real Californians are going through in a way the billionaire class

00:12:52.320 up here does not. That would have been your answer, sister, but you can't do it because

00:12:56.080 you're so wrapped up in your own head. All right. So she went from, you know,

00:13:02.020 mocking the moment where she berated the staffer, you know, right. Gently mocking herself in the ad

00:13:08.420 to nearly crying about it because crying for herself, not for the staffer to also claiming 0.82

00:13:14.020 sexism, like in a matter of hours, I like, hold on, buckle up. This is why she has to win. 1.00

00:13:20.900 Please, Californians, give us this gift.

00:13:23.460 You gave us Kamala Harris, for which we're very grateful.

00:13:26.000 Now you gave us Katie Porter.

00:13:27.220 But, you know, if you don't vote for her, you know, vote for Steve Hilton.

00:13:30.600 Be like, if you can't bring yourself to or Chad Bianco, he seems good to.

00:13:34.580 Please give us Katie Porter. 0.98

00:13:36.440 Now to show what a softie at heart she really is. 0.99

00:13:40.400 Porter talked about some of the freebies that she would very much like to offer as governor. 0.91

00:13:45.100 Like, of course, health care for illegals. 0.90

00:13:48.200 so uh congresswoman porter your thoughts on the idea of funding health care for undocumented

00:13:53.940 immigrants statewide yes yes and and that's by the way what i think californians deserve

00:14:01.120 as answers to these questions alex and for critics who say that we can't afford it what

00:14:05.500 do you say to that we can't afford to have people who are sick who are making the rest of us sick

00:14:09.760 when they shouldn't be here have care yes you heard that republican chad bianco saying yeah

00:14:16.500 they shouldn't be here. He's like, get them out. So is Steve Hilton. But she's like, no,

00:14:21.080 keep them here and pay for all their expenses so that they don't get us sick. And you know what?

00:14:25.980 I do appreciate though. I have to say once again, like I, I got a lot of mixed feelings about this

00:14:30.500 babe. She's like, you know, do you favor healthcare for illegals? Yes. Thank you. I mean, 0.99

00:14:37.820 she says it explicitly. God bless her. You know, it's like, I do have more respect for that than

00:14:43.080 the pussyfooted like, well, what I think is, and then like a long meandering non-answer by somebody

00:14:47.780 who also feels yes, right? At one point, this same pair, Bianco and Porter, mix it up on stage. Now,

00:14:56.140 this was the exchange of the night. She was really big on like the sexism card. It was like this 0.99

00:15:04.400 undercurrent. You know, she was going to try to say, I am the woman. This is the subliminal.

00:15:09.880 In her next debate, she's going to be like, the messaging of my last debate was that 0.98

00:15:13.000 I was the woman and I was next to male sexists. You see, it works better if you don't put it

00:15:17.980 totally on the nose, your strategy, but in any event. So that was the underlying current. I'm

00:15:22.680 the woman. These are bully men. You are holding me to a higher standard than you're holding them 0.99

00:15:28.520 to. They're doing the bullying and nasty behaviors right here on this stage for which I've been

00:15:34.620 called out for years for one video. By the way, it was way more than one years ago. So that's not

00:15:40.660 fair. And it's a double standard. That was sort of the, and she also was trying to telegraph,

00:15:45.800 you know, like I, I can, I can handle this. I can, I can handle the scrutiny. And, um,

00:15:54.420 I just want it to be even amongst everybody. So can Katie Porter actually control herself? 1.00

00:16:01.260 Right. We saw her already break down. She couldn't, she couldn't get through that answer 1.00

00:16:05.040 about herself and her controversy

00:16:06.520 without clearly tearing up and the voice shaking. 0.53

00:16:10.340 And here you're about to see her snap.

00:16:14.580 This Bianco kind of kept needling her a little 0.80

00:16:17.040 and it worked, watch.

00:16:20.400 I can't believe that on a stage

00:16:23.620 with 30 minutes of interrupting and bickering

00:16:27.620 and name calling and shouting and disrespect

00:16:31.840 for everyone up here who's stepping into public service that anyone wants to talk about my

00:16:38.080 temperament you were actually interrupting them too i don't know why you want to act like you

00:16:44.120 weren't oh cowboy even i steve and i oh cowboy up okay which is it we need to we need to object

00:16:55.180 when they interrupt us or if you raise the fact that someone's interrupted you you need to cowboy

00:17:01.040 up. Pick a lane, my dear, because your messaging there is not exactly consistent. Maybe you need

00:17:07.520 to cowboy up because you're the one who continues to raise their behavior and their interruptions

00:17:14.480 on this stage, which is it? Like you can complain about it or you can't because all Chad Bianco was

00:17:21.020 trying to say was you've been interrupting too, which really isn't that big a slight. You know

00:17:25.700 what i mean like get it together pick a lane that's all now she's not dumb this gal she's 0.99

00:17:32.840 you know unhinged but she's not dumb when all else fails as a democrat you know what to do 0.99

00:17:37.760 attack donald trump congressman porter what's your view what's your response donald trump sucks 0.99

00:17:44.020 and i don't think that anyone who doesn't see that he is targeting and hurting californians 0.97

00:17:49.900 and won't stand up for everybody who is counting on them to be their leader and keep them safe has

00:17:56.560 no business being governor congresswoman porter thank you there you go baby you nailed it trump 0.98

00:18:04.300 sucks that's really all you have to say to get elected in california i mean like that really 0.99

00:18:08.760 forget all the nonsense about your your minivan and your grocery cart and your cowboy up and 0.98

00:18:15.260 you're crying over your, just keep saying that. That's what they want to hear. Those are the

00:18:20.220 sweet nothings that will cause them to lift up the dress. It's Donald Trump sucks. That's all 1.00

00:18:26.480 you need. Those are the magic words. Remember in Family Man, one of my favorite movies,

00:18:32.660 Nicolas Cage is pretending to be, well, he gets put into another version of his own life and he's

00:18:37.760 back with Taya Leone and he's married to this woman, but it's an alternate life. So he doesn't

00:18:41.880 have any memories of what it's like to be married to this woman, Taya Leone. It's a great movie if

00:18:45.920 you haven't seen it. It's kind of a Christmas special. And he wants eventually to like go to

00:18:50.660 bed with her. She is his wife. She thinks it's her normal old husband. She doesn't realize it's 0.63

00:18:54.560 kind of her husband from an alternate universe. And he's trying to figure out what to say to her.

00:18:59.040 She says, you know what to say to me? You know what to say to me? Like to make things happen.

00:19:03.460 and he tries with, come on, baby, you make me so hot. Not it. Turns out it's, I love you.

00:19:14.000 Katie, you figured it out. It wasn't all that other stuff. It wasn't, come on, baby,

00:19:19.040 you make me so hot. Look at my grocery cart. It's just Trump sucks. It's a very simple, 0.99

00:19:23.300 very simple electorate. Stick with that if you want to win, which again, we are rooting for,

00:19:28.840 sort of, at least if we don't get our first choice. Now, for his part, the billionaire down the stage,

00:19:35.580 Tom Steyer, who owns several multimillion dollar properties, including a spectacular home in Lake

00:19:41.820 Tahoe worth at least $18 million, probably more like 60 million at this point, took aim at ICE

00:19:48.280 because that's, yeah, that's also an unlocking of the good times ahead. And everybody's favorite 0.89

00:19:55.360 punching bag, White House Deputy Chief of Staff for policy, Stephen Miller.

00:20:00.120 The governor of California should hold people accountable who break the laws of California,

00:20:06.640 specifically including ICE agents and the people who send them to racially profile,

00:20:12.360 which is illegal, and use violence against Californians, which is illegal. And it should

00:20:18.180 go up the chain to the supervisors, right up to Stephen Miller. If he's sending people to racially

00:20:24.420 profile and hurt Californians or kill Californians, he should be held liable. It is not legal for

00:20:30.780 federal agents to come to California and break the law. It is absolutely critical that California's

00:20:37.200 governor does stand up for everyone in California. That in fact, ICE to me is a criminal operation.

00:20:43.480 I've said all along, we should abolish ICE. It's breaking the law. It is coming here deliberately

00:20:48.760 to break the law i mean it's just a little flavor for how crazy these california democrats are we

00:20:56.240 should abolish ice saying it loud and proud from the debate stage and back to porter we should be

00:21:03.880 paying for the health care of illegals on the taxpayer dime i mean like they're they don't 0.99

00:21:09.580 they have no shame around it more illegals um we're not going to get rid of illegal immigration 0.75

00:21:16.620 we're going to get rid of ICE, the ones trying to stop it and deport the illegals who are 0.94

00:21:21.480 literally killing our citizens across the country, but in California as well. That's where Kate 0.60

00:21:26.360 Steinle died. They don't care. They're banking on a long, well, a short memory amongst their

00:21:34.740 constituents. And they're probably right. They're probably right. There are no nationally elected

00:21:41.620 Republicans in California. Steve Hilton's going to be the first when he wins this race.

00:21:46.620 if there is a God. He was allowed to speak last night and gave California's a different option

00:21:54.600 on immigration. Listen to how rational he is. Mr. Hilton, right now, President Trump is enacting a

00:22:01.440 policy of mass deportation. As you know, roughly half of California, California farm workers,

00:22:06.960 which are an essential part of this state's economy, are undocumented. As governor,

00:22:12.100 would you push to deport them? So I'm I'm the only immigrant on stage. I'm a legal immigrant

00:22:17.860 and Americans support immigration when it is properly controlled. And what we saw under the 0.78

00:22:25.140 Biden administration, open borders undermined everybody's support for immigration. And as

00:22:30.960 governor, I've made it very clear, although it is the federal government's responsibility to

00:22:35.880 determine and implement immigration policy. I think it's important that all the laws are

00:22:42.760 peacefully enforced. And as governor, I would make sure that we work with the federal government

00:22:48.060 to enforce our laws. Go, Steve, go. In the last debate, the candidates were asked to give

00:22:55.260 current Governor Gavin Newsom a grade. This time they were asked to describe his performance in

00:23:00.420 one word. Porter said, bold. Katie, you're telegraphing something there. Steyer said,

00:23:08.820 progressive. Becerra actually said, game changing. I mean, I think we kind of agree with that,

00:23:14.020 but not for the better. And so the sort of sycophant love affair with their fellow progressive

00:23:20.020 was on full display as well. Here to react to all of this and more, Saurabh Amari. He's U.S.

00:23:25.780 editor of Unheard, and Sean Davis, who is CEO of The Federalist. We've all been there, stuck in a

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00:24:41.220 Guys, great to see you. Highly entertaining your thoughts. I'll start with you, Sean.

00:24:47.020 I'm Katie Porter, the star of the evening.

00:24:49.700 Well, let he who has never used a potato as a weapon cast the first stone here.

00:24:56.480 Fair.

00:24:57.100 I love everything about her. 1.00

00:24:58.780 I love that she's a nut job. 0.98

00:25:00.480 I love that she's reading her stage directions up on behind the podium.

00:25:05.500 It reminded me of that famous, I think it was a 1992 New Hampshire town hall that George H.W. Bush did where he said,

00:25:12.460 message I care because I guess there was a cue card that said message colon I care so message

00:25:19.340 I'm not crazy message I'm likable I'm looking forward to the next debate where she just says

00:25:24.340 look everyone knows that I'm the most likable because that's the message is that I'm likable

00:25:29.280 um so yeah she's totally not and I can make fun of myself and let's talk about her shot that the

00:25:36.160 staffer was in is if the staffer was the bad part of that shot. Like what part of messy kitchen did 1.00

00:25:43.220 she think was like a really good aesthetic there? Like the staffer in the mask was the least

00:25:49.240 offensive thing about that shot. But, you know, Katie Porter, she fits in perfectly with the 1.00

00:25:55.220 California Democrat Party because they understand, as the National Democrat Party does, that their

00:26:00.420 foundation is illegal immigration. And so, you know, you would think that if they had wanted

00:26:05.680 illegals to come in. They would strike some kind of bargain like, hey, guys, we're going to let 0.92

00:26:09.380 all these illegals in, but don't worry. It'll be OK. They're going to pay for all of your stuff. 0.99

00:26:14.080 You know, I don't think it'd be a great idea, but that might be a bargain some people would go for.

00:26:18.380 But instead, the Democrats are like, hey, we're going to have an invasion of illegal immigrants.

00:26:22.580 They're going to take over your country. And in return, you're not getting anything for free. 0.62

00:26:27.180 Now, you're still paying full freight, but you're going to give them everything for free.

00:26:31.520 And it's so insane that when you hear it, you're like, that couldn't possibly be their message. And yet it is. Becerra agreed with it. Villaraigosa agreed with it. Steyer agreed with it. They understand that Americans have largely abandoned the Democrat Party because the Democrat Party has abandoned America.

00:26:49.240 And so now their only hope, especially in California, which was utterly transformed by illegal immigration, their only hope is in bringing in as many people as they can, giving them as much free crap as they can, and then hoping that they'll vote for Democrats in larger numbers than actual Americans.

00:27:05.760 yeah and that they were basically owning that last night so rob that basically being like look

00:27:11.740 katie porter i think was the one who said it like the only the only new people who are coming here

00:27:16.140 are illegals so yeah we need to take care of them i mean again thank you for saying it out loud

00:27:22.280 yeah look i would say there's one broad observation to make about this and maybe it's 1.00

00:27:28.220 me trying to see the silver lining but if you compared this to what democratic internal debates

00:27:34.320 were like in, say, 2020, it's remarkable how much of it was focused on what you might call

00:27:41.080 material questions like health care, like a living wage, and less so about, bracket the

00:27:49.340 question of immigration aside, less so about policing or trans or stuff like that. So to some

00:27:54.660 extent, even in the California Democratic Party, it has filtered down that the craziness of 2020,

00:28:00.680 what we've come to call the woke kind of peak woke era, didn't work for the party. And so they

00:28:06.700 can talk about other things. However, the kryptonite to that is immigration, the thing that 1.00

00:28:13.860 undoes everything else. So I think about myself in a different universe. I could be a 1990s 1.00

00:28:22.160 Democrat because probably unlike the two of you, I think labor unions in the private economy are

00:28:28.620 a good thing workers need i was a 1990s democrat yeah that's right i can relate to this bully

00:28:33.780 fair enough or or you know support for just broadly speaking the new deal programs i think

00:28:39.180 those are achievements of of working middle class people in this country however they don't work

00:28:45.000 if you have infinity immigration right because first of all in undocumented migrants the reason 0.63

00:28:52.900 big business loves undocumented migrants is because they put downward pressure on the wages of

00:28:58.160 of native born workers. Obviously, they're cheap, and they put pressure on public services. So 1.00

00:29:05.400 it, you know, the fact that they can't let that part of what I consider 2020 era madness, which is

00:29:13.020 infinity migration, that the fact that they can't let it go, in a way is a tragedy. And look,

00:29:19.760 California has huge problems. It is still, I think, like the eighth or ninth largest economy

00:29:27.040 in the world if just taken by itself. But that's changing. Hollywood is increasingly moving to

00:29:32.340 Atlanta. A lot of tech is no longer bound to Silicon Valley. And a lot of this has to do with

00:29:38.560 these kinds of lifestyle governance at which Democrats are really bad, right? Democratic

00:29:44.720 cities, especially on the West Coast, especially in California, have come to be associated with

00:29:50.000 tent cities and and just this atmosphere of lawlessness um and that's the sort of stuff

00:29:56.840 they need to be talking about not what i consider a very millennial style of campaigning which katie

00:30:02.920 porter especially exemplified but it is all the other candidates where it's like me you know the

00:30:08.860 message is katie no one cares about katie porter's instead of you you know right and the fact no i

00:30:14.540 care that you're wrong there that's right that's right i mean we all do for entertainment sake

00:30:18.200 But actually, telling the people in the ad behind you, get out of my shot, even if you're trying to make fun of yourself, actually is a terrible message.

00:30:26.240 It's saying, look, I have this crowd behind me, but I don't want them.

00:30:29.180 Go away so that I alone.

00:30:31.140 Right back to me. 0.93

00:30:31.920 Yeah, just like she really the more accurate would have been her saying, like, are you illegals? 0.90

00:30:36.980 Then you can stay. 0.98

00:30:38.120 Americans, get out. 0.98

00:30:39.980 And we did find this soundbite that I was referencing. 1.00

00:30:41.980 Here it is in 17.

00:30:43.840 It's the job of the California governor to protect every single Californian.

00:30:48.360 The sanctuary state policy is designed to make sure that our state resources, the taxpayer dollars, the public servants that we have, are focusing on doing their jobs, which is not cooperating with the federal immigration authorities.

00:31:04.200 These are Californians.

00:31:05.360 They contribute to our economy.

00:31:06.820 They pay taxes.

00:31:07.800 And they're one of the only ways that our state has been growing in recent years.

00:31:11.980 It's right there, Sean, black and white.

00:31:14.860 The illegals are the only ways in which our state has been growing this year and recent years.

00:31:21.220 And they're, quote, Californians, which seems to be some sort of clever way around their citizens, right?

00:31:27.920 Like, are they Californians? 0.97

00:31:29.840 Can you call yourself a Californian if you just happen to live there, but you're there unlawfully and you could be ejected at any time if we get our shit together in our immigration department? 0.98

00:31:38.740 Well, yeah, it's interesting. 0.96

00:31:39.460 They seem to have this kind of one-way ratchet on who is and isn't a Californian.

00:31:43.480 You know, if you're an illegal and you're there, you're a Californian.

00:31:46.900 But I bet if I showed up there with some luggage and said, hey, I want to vote now.

00:31:52.760 I'm in California.

00:31:53.980 I'm a Californian.

00:31:55.380 I don't think they would really be down with that. 0.99

00:31:57.360 I don't think they would want like a red state diaspora showing up and saying, hey, we're 0.90

00:32:01.420 all Californians now and we're here to vote. 0.93

00:32:03.840 So it's this weird thing where you get to be a Californian so-called when you're doing

00:32:08.260 what she wants.

00:32:09.020 But if you're not, you're not. And then there's this other totally crazy thing they're doing out there, which is they understand that no one really wants to be there to build a business because it's totally suffocating and Kafka-esque to try and start and run a business in California because their tax environment is so bad.

00:32:25.000 And so everyone's fleeing. And so they decided, well, crap, we can't have that. So we're going to do a retroactive tax. So if you leave the state after a certain point because you don't want to deal with our nonsense regulations and taxes here, we're still going to tax you even though you're not a Californian.

00:32:41.240 You took the affirmative steps to not be in California, but we're going to come after you.

00:32:45.900 And so it's this like Schrodinger's California question where you can simultaneously be a Californian and not depending on how you either help the Democrats bottom line for budgeting or whether you can add votes to them.

00:32:57.800 And it's just what makes me truly sad is that California is an absolute gem.

00:33:02.640 It is a jewel of America.

00:33:03.880 It is one of the most stunningly beautiful places ever.

00:33:06.620 It used to be an absolute paradise.

00:33:09.100 And through one-party governance over several decades, it's been utterly destroyed.

00:33:13.920 And I think it's like downright tragic.

00:33:16.100 This was the state that gave us Ronald Reagan.

00:33:18.560 I don't know, Sean. 0.94

00:33:19.240 The illegals like it. 1.00

00:33:20.560 They do. 0.78

00:33:21.180 They do love being there and getting free stuff.

00:33:22.980 Who can blame them?

00:33:24.680 All right.

00:33:25.220 Well, let me keep going because we have a lot to hit.

00:33:27.920 The Obamas are featured in The New Yorker, Barack Obama in particular, but there's plenty

00:33:33.100 on Michelle, too.

00:33:34.560 And the headline is Barack Obama considers his role in the age of Trump.

00:33:39.860 Now, I was thinking about this in the context of Katie Porter and her emotional dysregulation.

00:33:45.980 I actually do think it's bad.

00:33:47.260 I would think it's bad.

00:33:48.840 Probably it's entertaining, but it's not great in somebody who's asking us to make them a leader. 1.00

00:33:55.060 And it's extra bad because she's a woman. 0.99

00:33:57.380 That's just the truth, because, you know, people already have a suspicion that a female leader might be more emotional. 0.91

00:34:03.900 And she will be more emotional.

00:34:05.220 Women are more emotional than men.

00:34:06.380 That's actually one of the things that makes us beautiful. 1.00

00:34:08.520 That's not exactly a leadership skill.

00:34:10.520 So when running for an important role like that, you would probably tamp it down rather

00:34:14.480 than leaning into your tears and your very angry nature.

00:34:21.040 So I don't know. 0.99

00:34:21.900 Her defenders would say maybe we're setting an impossible bar for her and, you know, whatever.

00:34:28.260 It's not fair to hold her to these high standards if you don't hold the men to them. 0.98

00:34:31.880 Enter Michelle Obama.

00:34:33.900 In this interview, okay, she says, it's not about Katie Porter.

00:34:37.440 This is about, of course, herself.

00:34:39.320 She talks about how after President Trump delivered his first inaugural address,

00:34:44.220 yeah, like acceptance speech at the inauguration,

00:34:47.380 a dark address, they note, that led George W. Bush to note, 0.99

00:34:50.420 that was some weird shit. 0.99

00:34:52.060 The Obamas flew by helicopter to Joint Base Andrews, 0.99

00:34:54.920 where they boarded a plane that took them to Palm Springs for a vacation.

00:34:58.100 On the flight, Michelle sobbed uncontrollably for a half hour.

00:35:01.380 It was just the release of eight years of trying to do everything perfectly, she said in an onstage interview with Oprah Winfrey back in 2018.

00:35:11.260 I said to Barack, that was so hard.

00:35:15.040 What we just did was so hard.

00:35:17.320 And I've wanted to say that for eight years.

00:35:20.600 Then they cut to Obama, by the way, and talk to him about what it's like to constantly be in demand on the political front.

00:35:29.220 People want him out there being the Democratic mouthpiece still and to be on the campaign

00:35:34.320 circuit.

00:35:34.840 And he says it does create a genuine tension in our household and it frustrates Michelle.

00:35:40.740 I'm more forgiving of it, he says, but I understand why people want this.

00:35:45.100 So what we have here is more tension between the Obamas and more woe is me from Michelle

00:35:50.880 Obama, who, again, as reiterated by the New Yorker, felt the American people, who she's

00:35:56.180 called racist many times, were holding her to an impossible standard that no human being could

00:36:01.720 meet. So is this, in fact, our sexism and our racism that put poor Michelle in such a terrible

00:36:08.280 position for these eight years? Yeah, no, I don't think so. And it's more of that, again, that 0.67

00:36:13.900 millennial, they're older than millennials, but it defined that kind of generation where the message

00:36:19.340 was the person. And look, President Obama had a historic opportunity to remake the country. And

00:36:28.280 some would say he did in indestructible ways. I don't think so. I think what's remarkable about

00:36:32.460 Obama is ultimately, besides Obamacare, how little he did fundamentally to change the pattern away

00:36:39.700 from Bush on foreign policy. He was largely a hawk. He started two more wars, a proxy war in

00:36:46.880 Syria and a pointless regime change war in Libya, right? And then you had the fact that

00:36:54.940 domestically speaking, he turned over a lot of decisions about the economy to all these figures

00:37:01.680 from Wall Street, right? Tim Geithner, et cetera, et cetera. And that's because that kind of empty

00:37:07.160 messaging, me, hope, whatever that meant, was easy to fill with the same old agenda just under a

00:37:14.920 different wrapping right the same old kind of pro-war pro-wall street agenda and that set up

00:37:20.000 the we're still there and that set up the trump uh coming to power right that was the reason trump

00:37:25.780 came to power and it was again racism had very little to do with it because the most important

00:37:30.660 group that brought trump to power are you know white working class people in states like

00:37:37.000 pennsylvania who were twice obama voters they voted for twice for obama and then they became

00:37:42.360 Trump voters. So those people weren't racist or didn't become racist over the course of the

00:37:47.780 Obama presidency. They'd supported him twice, but they ultimately didn't get what they wanted out

00:37:54.060 of it. It was they basically got more of the same. It's remarkable how little differed between

00:37:58.660 Bush and Obama in some ways. And I think that's the real failure.

00:38:02.860 Well, sadly, we're learning that that's true about Trump when it comes to foreign policy 0.66

00:38:06.400 somewhat as well, which is why those same white working class voters have now amazingly turned

00:38:11.600 on him. I mean, it was like that was the most of all the shocking polls around Trump in this war.

00:38:16.520 That was the most shocking is his loss of the white working class. No one ever thought it

00:38:19.760 could happen. That is the Fifth Avenue voter, Sean, you know, who famously it was Trump could

00:38:25.560 shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and they would never turn on him. I have to before I get to

00:38:29.540 that, though, I've got I saved this one for you, Sean Davis, because the Federalist has done

00:38:34.080 yeoman's work on Russiagate and the nonsense, which was perpetrated, propagated, pushed,

00:38:40.440 supported by Brett by President Barack Obama. It was Obama's baby. And he has the nerve to say

00:38:48.380 this. I guess he's doing a press tour because he also went on Stephen Colbert. He had the nerve

00:38:52.880 to say this in SOT 21. The White House shouldn't be able to direct the attorney general to go

00:38:59.900 around prosecuting. The idea is that the attorney general is the people's lawyer. It's not the

00:39:05.620 president's consigliere we can't overcome the politicization of the criminal justice system

00:39:11.260 the the awesome power of the state you can't have a situation in which

00:39:16.160 whoever's in charge of the government starts using that to go after their political enemies

00:39:22.620 we can't the audacity of this man like remember it it is wild to see him say uh the ag is not

00:39:33.780 the president's consigliere. I remember Obama's AG, Eric Holder, saying, I'm the president's

00:39:39.540 wingman. I'm his boy. I got him. I'm his wingman. So you have the man who was the literal architect

00:39:46.400 of the Russiagate hoax, which they cooked up together in the Oval Office on January 5th,

00:39:52.680 2017. It was him and Biden and Susan Rice and Comey and Clapper, and they were all in on it.

00:39:59.220 So for this guy who has two legacies, one of which, like Barack Obama, if somehow you see this clip, you need to understand you have two legacies.

00:40:06.340 One is Donald Trump. Congrats, by the way.

00:40:08.740 Your only lasting legacy in American political history is creating Donald Trump.

00:40:13.360 So good job with that.

00:40:14.380 And then the second one is the normalization of lawfare.

00:40:17.520 So I agree with him.

00:40:19.300 Yes, lawfare is awful.

00:40:20.640 It is a cancer on the American republic.

00:40:23.540 And I don't know if it's something we can come back from.

00:40:26.400 He is the one who started it.

00:40:28.120 Okay, he gave it its origin story for this guy to go out there and pretend he had nothing to do with it. I will tell you, between that interview, between the New Yorker article, he had kind of faded away and I had forgotten about how mendacious and unlikable and dishonest he was. So thank you, Barack, for coming back and reminding all of us why we couldn't wait to get rid of you.

00:40:50.220 Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, truly, that statement, you can't have a situation where whoever is in charge starts using that to go after their political enemies. Oh, my God. Like, that is literally what he did. That was the beginning of Russiagate by decision by him, not to mention what his vice president, who went on to become president, did for the four years he was in office.

00:41:14.320 And all the other Democrats like Fannie Willis and Alvin Bragg, who tried to get Trump politically.

00:41:21.980 I mean, this is just it's crazy not to mention what happened to Bannon.

00:41:26.140 It's like for the interview, Stephen Colbert, not to say anything like nothing.

00:41:33.000 You like I realize he's not a journalist, but it's just so hack.

00:41:36.420 It's so hack like it's stomach turning.

00:41:39.180 OK, fine. We've righted that ship.

00:41:41.060 All right. We've got to talk about Iran because I have no idea what's happening in Iran. That's where I want to start it. There are reports now that from like the reporters to whom this administration or Netanyahu use to get information out like this.

00:41:59.000 what's his name, Barack Ravid, who's constantly saying there's a deal, there's a deal, there's a

00:42:05.320 deal, this guy's serving the IDF. And literally not one of them has proven to be true, not one.

00:42:10.820 So I hesitate to even cite this guy. But once again, he is saying that there's a deal and it's

00:42:17.180 allegedly a 14 point deal, at least potentially a deal, and goes through like what the points might

00:42:24.180 be, they include, okay, let's see, a moratorium on uranium enrichment. This piece is dovetailed

00:42:33.900 by Axios. A possible moratorium on uranium enrichment that could go 12 years to 15.

00:42:42.560 Iran wants it to be five, reportedly. We wanted it to be 20. We wanted a provision whereby any

00:42:48.120 Iranian violation on enrichment would prolong the moratorium. But after the moratorium,

00:42:54.280 they could enrich to the low level of 3.67%. By the way, that's exactly the same amount as

00:42:59.200 Barack Obama's deal that Trump said he hated, the JCPOA. It would commit to Iran never,

00:43:07.040 never seeking a nuclear weapon. And according to a U.S. official reports, Axios, the parties

00:43:12.460 are discussing a clause where Iran would commit not to operate underground nuclear facilities

00:43:18.520 and would commit to it an enhanced inspections regime, including snap inspections by UN inspectors.

00:43:27.840 Then two sources with knowledge, this is Axios, also claimed that Iran would agree to remove

00:43:32.060 its highly enriched uranium from the country. They'd been haggling over that. Iran originally

00:43:37.340 said, no, we said, give it to us. There was talk about giving it to a third party. This says one

00:43:42.380 source as an option is moving the material to the United States. And in return, there would be a

00:43:48.220 gradual lifting of our sanctions imposed on Iran, the gradual release of billions of dollars in

00:43:54.380 Iranian funds that are frozen around the world. In one of the deals earlier that fell apart,

00:44:02.220 we had proposed the release of 20 billion in frozen Iranian assets. So we don't know what

00:44:08.700 the actual number of billions is that we'd be releasing to them, but a lot of billions though,

00:44:12.260 Rab. And all of this is to get them to open up the Strait of Hormuz and make promises to us on

00:44:19.980 uranium enrichment and pursuit of a nuclear weapon that we were already well down the line in 0.60

00:44:25.960 negotiating with them when we started this war. So your reaction to that news? Yeah, look, I like

00:44:33.140 you i'm i'm a little bit uh skeptical every time there's this hyping of a deal i i watch iranian

00:44:40.480 state tv all the time and they they seem to think that they're they have the upper hand of course

00:44:46.680 they also propagandize as well what we do know is this for a fact is that the tone from the trump

00:44:51.700 administration has shifted from the president himself yesterday i believe he said something

00:44:56.900 like, I'm pausing Operation Freedom, which was this effort to escort vessels through the Strait

00:45:03.820 of Hormuz. I'm putting a pause to that. And the fact that he downplayed the extent of the Iranian

00:45:10.400 response, the Iranians had attacked the UAE as this facility that they had hit. And he sort of

00:45:16.320 said, it wasn't that much. The fact that he could have used that as a cause for restarting the war 0.52

00:45:23.820 anything like that, but he quickly tamped it down. That could suggest that we're getting somewhere.

00:45:30.220 And look, the tragedy here, though, is, as you said, a lot of this seems to be giving up a lot

00:45:37.020 of points to Iran in order to just restore a status quo ante that, you know, wouldn't have

00:45:43.420 been altered, but for the decision, the decision to go to war. So, yeah, coming days, coming weeks,

00:45:52.520 months, years is going to be a reckoning with the fact that the people who sold this war

00:45:57.560 aggressively and said that the Iranian regime was on the verge of collapse, it would just take a

00:46:02.340 push or whatever. That includes Bibi, that includes Senator Lindsey Graham, that includes lots of

00:46:08.400 others in this kind of hawkish orbit who were supposed to have been sidelined by Trump. The

00:46:14.720 whole rise of Trump was to get those people, the kind of permanent war party, get their hands off

00:46:20.860 the levers of power. And then they ended up getting exactly what they wanted out of what was

00:46:26.520 supposed to have the least likely administration to give it to them. So there's going to be a

00:46:30.380 reckoning, I think, in the Republican Party. Certainly, the Democrats are already is are

00:46:34.340 on a far, far different place, right? The mainstream candidates and office holders will

00:46:41.420 talk about Israel as an apartheid state or vote for withholding defensive and offensive and 0.94

00:46:47.400 defensive arms from them but even in the republican party look with under 50s extremely frustrated

00:46:53.480 with this uh independence a majority are are frustrated with that whole complex of pro-israel

00:47:00.820 pro-war um ideologies because bottom line like what has it gotten us we we went into this

00:47:07.620 yesterday i filled up my tank and i posted about it on twitter it was like a let's say 2020 style

00:47:14.740 price for um 2022 i should say yeah me too i filled up over the weekend it was five dollars

00:47:23.880 and nine cents a gallon five dollars in connecticut right now today the um average price per

00:47:30.620 gallon it just went up today again and the average price is four dollars and 53 cents a gallon a year

00:47:37.040 ago, it was at $3.17. That's gas. Diesel, today it's at $5.65. A year ago, it was at $3.55. So

00:47:48.500 it's more than $2 higher than it was a year ago. And it's only $0.16 off of its highest ever.

00:47:57.520 Oh yeah. I mean, my husband actually literally wrote the book on diesel, on Rudolph Diesel,

00:48:02.560 and walked us through the number of things in the economy that are powered by diesel. It's a

00:48:06.920 real thing. Every truck, every ship, every half the cars, every crane at like all the heavy

00:48:12.480 equipment, like it's all powered by diesel, which is two dollars higher per gallon than it was a

00:48:18.280 year ago and 16 cents off. It's highest in history. Sean, some of this is what's leading to this.

00:48:26.740 I give you Harry Enten talking about Trump's approval rating in SOT 12.

00:48:32.120 One of them that just came out over the weekend was the ABC News Washington Post Ipsos poll.

00:48:36.920 And you can see it right here. I mean, this just tells the story, right?

00:48:41.140 The lowest net approval ratings ever for the president of the United States.

00:48:45.400 That is approval minus disapproval.

00:48:47.840 The lowest previous record, according to the ABC News Washington Post, Paul, was Trump was 24 points underwater.

00:48:53.260 That was all the way back in term number one.

00:48:56.340 My beard at that particular point did not have any gray in it like it does today.

00:48:59.860 But guess what? As my beard has turned to gray, Trump's numbers have fallen to a new record low,

00:49:05.260 according to the Washington Post ABC News poll. He is now 25 points underwater on the net approval

00:49:11.020 rating. That is the lowest ever that he has ever been at. Your thoughts, Sean? Yeah, there's a cruel

00:49:18.360 political irony here because the reality is what was keeping Iran from developing an actual nuclear

00:49:25.240 weapon, which they did not have yet, either last summer during Midnight Hammer or when Epic Fury

00:49:29.940 started. The reality is that it was fear of an American regime coming after them that kept them

00:49:36.840 kind of in check from actually going from full development. And I think it's helpful to have

00:49:42.200 this understanding that if Gavin Newsom gets in, or AOC somehow gets into the White House 0.81

00:49:46.960 in two and a half, three years, Iran's getting a nuclear weapon. There's no fear of them. There 0.64

00:49:52.880 was no fear of Obama. There was no fear of Biden. And so this cruel irony here is that by engaging

00:49:57.880 in this operation, which has been deeply unpopular and only becoming more so. Wars do not get more

00:50:03.640 popular over time. They only get less popular. I think this one right now is 40 percent in favor

00:50:10.060 of versus 60 against. It's actually making it more likely that we end up with a Newsom or an AOC in

00:50:16.940 office, which means it will be more likely that Iran gets a nuclear weapon if you don't have

00:50:21.900 someone like a Vance or Rubio in office. And so it just makes it so painful to look at this.

00:50:27.880 Gas is way up. If you all think you're hurting, I've got a 35-gallon tank on my truck. I think

00:50:33.980 I'm filling up at $130 to fill up now, which is a real kick in the pants. So we've got the higher

00:50:40.280 gas prices. The economy is suffering. As you said, the whole economy runs on diesel. You don't

00:50:45.480 harvest a kernel of corn without diesel. And even the dyed diesel, the tax-free off-road diesel is

00:50:51.480 over $5 a gallon. So you're hurting the economy. You've made your agenda less popular. You've made

00:50:57.140 your enemy's more likely to get into office, which actually in the long term might make it 0.60

00:51:01.580 more likely that Iran gets a nuclear weapon. So I just find the whole thing genuinely tragic.

00:51:08.120 Yeah, me too. Tragic. That is the right word. It's also infuriating. It's incredibly frustrating.

00:51:13.640 I can't stand the gaslighting we're getting from the president's defenders and the administration.

00:51:17.400 It's like, everyone knows this was a disaster. Please just get out as quickly and as seamlessly

00:51:22.780 as is possible.

00:51:24.460 I mean, I realize that's assuming a lot at this point.

00:51:27.420 And, you know, you've got Marco Rubio yesterday saying,

00:51:30.040 we just want the Strait of Hormuz open.

00:51:33.240 Crystal Ball tweets,

00:51:34.080 the unachievable aim of the war

00:51:35.360 is now to undo the damage of the war.

00:51:37.480 Well said.

00:51:38.280 Guys got to run.

00:51:39.040 Thank you both.

00:51:39.780 Coming up next, Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch is here.

00:51:43.620 This is going to be a fun one.

00:51:45.040 Let's talk about what's really happening right now.

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00:53:45.080 We are now only 59 days away from one of the most historic days in American history,

00:53:51.920 the 250th birthday of the United States of America. Yes, this July 4th is a monumental

00:53:59.120 anniversary, and there are sure to be celebrations like we've never seen before. As you guys know,

00:54:04.920 we go all out for the 4th of July every year at our home, including dressing in colonial costumes,

00:54:11.520 doing a whole play, reenacting everything from Thomas Paine to Sam, John Adams and Thomas

00:54:17.680 Jefferson debating who's going to write the declaration to an actual reading of it. So we

00:54:21.780 lean in and I recommend you all do the same this year because I think everyone's going to go big.

00:54:26.780 Everyone's going to go big for the big 250. Besides all the fun, one of the big questions

00:54:31.360 for every parent is what do we teach our children about the founding of this country and the ideals

00:54:38.100 it represents. I mean, you know, it's up to us because sadly too many schools ignore civics and

00:54:44.740 really don't want to linger on the founding of this country because some of them are woke and

00:54:48.340 annoying and find the whole thing reprehensible. So it's up to us in far too many cases. And guess

00:54:54.000 who swooped in to give us a helping hand? It's Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch, a Trump

00:55:00.980 appointee. He is the author, along with his former clerk, Janie Nitze, of this new children's book,

00:55:08.900 Heroes of 1776, the story of the Declaration of Independence. It's actually like, it's labeled a

00:55:16.520 children's book, but can I tell you, you'll all love it. I was actually thinking as I was reading

00:55:20.720 it, I would do with this book, what I'm doing with Joseph Massey's book of poetry, just order

00:55:27.040 a bunch of them and give them out as a housewarming present when you go over to a friend's house for

00:55:31.520 dinner or an actual present when somebody's celebrating a birthday, what have you, especially

00:55:36.620 this next year, right? Everyone will love it. I mean, I assume the listeners of this show have

00:55:41.740 friends who are all patriots and don't have a book like this. It tells the tale of how our nation's

00:55:46.660 founding document was created and the incredible people behind it. And not just what led to the

00:55:53.360 declaration, but what happened after it was written and openly declared. Justice Gorsuch

00:56:00.180 joins us now. Justice Gorsuch, welcome back to the show. Great to see you.

00:56:03.780 It is so great to be with you, Megan. I got to tell you, though, last night I got a note from

00:56:07.960 an old law school classmate and dear friend who thinks I'm OK, but she is your biggest fan and

00:56:14.100 was so excited I was going to be with you today. Oh, yeah, I was going to say until you said she

00:56:19.180 I was going to ask if it was Barack Obama, because I know you guys were.

00:56:24.520 I like this woman already.

00:56:27.120 OK, I love the idea of this book because it's entertaining the way you've written it.

00:56:32.260 It actually goes right along.

00:56:33.920 The things you've chosen to zero in on are interesting and on point.

00:56:38.240 You highlight some heroes of the of the whole declaration and then revolution and some people

00:56:43.520 we didn't know as well.

00:56:45.200 So what was the point of doing this?

00:56:46.620 Well, you know, we're going to be celebrating, as you say, with fireworks and parades, and that's great. But I'm hopeful that maybe we can take just a moment to reflect on the declaration itself, the promises it holds for each of us, just how radical the ideas in it were and remain, and the people behind it.

00:57:06.700 None of it was inevitable. And the courage and sacrifice they showed were just remarkable.

00:57:13.000 I know kids love superheroes. Who doesn't? But the people who made the Declaration possible

00:57:19.640 were real superheroes, too. And some were, yes, the founders, the framers, but men, women, children

00:57:27.920 of all ages and backgrounds came together during the course of the revolution in incredible hardship

00:57:33.480 to make the declaration real for us.

00:57:37.140 You actually, like the book actually brought me near tears

00:57:41.660 and with a little chill down the spine a couple of times

00:57:44.940 as you just think back to the monumental nature

00:57:47.980 of what was done.

00:57:49.880 You write on one piece of it

00:57:52.380 about some of the early founders getting together.

00:57:55.240 And on June 7th, Richard Lee of Virginia

00:57:58.480 asked the delegates to adopt this resolution.

00:58:01.200 This is June 7th, of course,

00:58:03.040 which is about a month before July 4th, that these united colonies are and of right ought to

00:58:08.780 be free and independent states, which would make its way in there. And it was considered a radical

00:58:15.760 idea to break from England, to declare, even though we'd been living as colonies of England

00:58:22.400 for all this time, to declare that we were free and independent states. And there was a period

00:58:28.120 there were to be a revolutionary was considered really radical and just bit by bit, the momentum

00:58:34.180 built. I mean, was it fun for you to go back and get your hands around that and really like relive

00:58:39.220 that in a way? With my co-author, Janie Nitsi, and it was just so much fun to relearn some things

00:58:44.800 I'd forgotten and to learn some things I didn't know. But you're right about the radical nature

00:58:50.620 of those ideas, that all men are created equal, that each of us has inalienable rights given to

00:58:57.580 us by God, not by government, and that we have the right to rule ourselves. Nobody in Europe

00:59:03.360 thought any of those ideas was correct. It was a threat to the social order everywhere,

00:59:09.580 to monarchs, to kings and oligarchs, dictators around the world. And it kind of remains so

00:59:16.820 today, if you think about it. And it was highly contingent. There was nothing guaranteed. You

00:59:22.140 point out on June 7th, when the resolution was introduced, even then, the delegates were split

00:59:27.580 and the country was split. Only about 40 percent supported independence. Another 20 or 30 percent

00:59:33.620 were loyalists, and the rest were pretty eager to stay out of it.

00:59:39.780 There was anger at King George. They were very angry about what he was doing. And it's funny now,

00:59:45.340 because if you read, you know, our ultimate founding documents, you see things in there

00:59:49.240 about not housing troops in our house, in our homes.

00:59:53.720 It's like, to the modern day American,

00:59:56.040 it's like, what's that about?

00:59:57.460 Like, what do you mean?

00:59:58.360 Why did we have to put that in there?

00:59:59.600 But you go back 250 years and it makes sense.

01:00:01.860 These are some of the grievances they had against the king

01:00:04.860 who was, I mean, on one that must be near and dear

01:00:07.700 to your own heart, actually not allowing trials by jury.

01:00:11.760 I mean, that is so American now

01:00:14.160 to think that there was a time where our forefathers

01:00:16.940 were having to face criminal charges

01:00:19.560 without a jury of their peers.

01:00:20.820 Yeah, no, you go through the Bill of Rights

01:00:22.320 and every one of them really traces its way back

01:00:25.740 to the ability to have independent judges decide your case.

01:00:29.720 Instead, it was the King's agents

01:00:31.140 who were deciding cases in the colonies

01:00:32.920 and a jury of your peers.

01:00:34.640 They wanted to take cases over to Britain

01:00:36.680 so that you wouldn't even have a jury in Massachusetts,

01:00:39.380 say, decide your case.

01:00:42.000 You go through how, as they were together

01:00:45.840 and they were drafting it and they were getting ready, John Adams, ultimately, when they had all

01:00:50.000 the votes for it, that John Adams writes to his wife, Abigail, that on that day, quote,

01:00:56.480 the greatest question was decided, whichever was debated in America, and a greater, and a

01:01:04.000 greatest, perhaps, I got to put my glasses on, Judge, sorry, Justice Gorsuch. Okay, here we go.

01:01:10.720 the greatest question we're all getting old okay the greatest question was decided whichever was

01:01:17.720 debated in america and a greater perhaps never was or will be decided among men wow i mean he

01:01:26.960 they knew how huge this was even when our country was just this tiny little baby well they knew that

01:01:34.160 they were planting the seed for a completely different form of government than anything that

01:01:38.220 was known. And it is kind of amazing to think about those three ideas in the Declaration.

01:01:44.100 We've appealed to them throughout our history, during the Civil War, the Civil Rights Movement,

01:01:48.400 the Women's Suffrage Movement, because they're perfect ideas. They speak to every human heart.

01:01:53.560 They exclude no one. And they've been the model for freedom movements across the world as well.

01:01:59.940 But even when they voted on June 7th, that resolution was introduced, but they tabled it

01:02:07.820 because there was still so much disagreement.

01:02:10.020 They brought it to a vote first on July 1st.

01:02:12.940 But we don't celebrate July 1st because they were divided.

01:02:16.520 Only nine colonies voted for independence.

01:02:19.060 Others were split.

01:02:20.420 They were against it.

01:02:21.740 And some couldn't vote at all

01:02:23.260 because they didn't have sufficient instructions from home.

01:02:26.280 So what happened after that day?

01:02:28.500 It was really pretty dramatic.

01:02:31.380 Cesar Rodney was called from Delaware

01:02:33.540 where he was home on business.

01:02:35.640 He was a delegate from Delaware.

01:02:36.800 He was called and said his vote was needed to break a tie in the Delaware delegation.

01:02:41.360 He rode 80 miles through the night in the thunderstorm, suffering cancer of the face.

01:02:47.620 People had told him he needed to go to England for treatment.

01:02:50.020 He wouldn't do it because he was such a patriot.

01:02:51.900 He wanted to be there.

01:02:53.220 And he came in the next day dripping wet to break the vote in Delaware.

01:02:58.720 And there's Edward Rutledge from South Carolina who voted against independence on July 1st,

01:03:03.800 but who realized after the vote, it was more important for us to stand united than for his

01:03:09.180 own personal views to prevail. So the next day, he switched his vote and urged others to do so.

01:03:15.160 And so July 7th was the day when Adams wrote those words. He thought we would be celebrating July 2nd

01:03:20.960 with fireworks forever. You know, he's wrong about that. We celebrate the 4th when they

01:03:26.740 approved the declaration, which I actually think, Megan, is kind of interesting, right? We don't

01:03:31.600 celebrate the revolution we don't celebrate the beginning of it the end of it like you might think

01:03:37.440 we would or the war we don't celebrate plymouth rock we celebrate a document we celebrate a

01:03:44.300 document with those three great ideas that speak to every one of us yeah and and i mean it's

01:03:51.280 meaningful i was i've told the audience before we had a friend from argentina who was in town for

01:03:57.300 the last July 4th. And he couldn't believe how everyone puts an American flag on the outside of

01:04:04.040 their house. He said, is it only for July 4th? I said, actually, no. I mean, most people actually

01:04:08.320 have an American flag. A lot of people do year round, but pretty much every house, at least where

01:04:12.800 we go in the summers on July 4th. I mean, he said, we don't have anything like this in Argentina.

01:04:17.560 No one has this kind of open patriotism. It's worth fighting for. It's dwindling somewhat in

01:04:23.160 our country, this book will help. It'll help reset the table. And as you point out, I mean,

01:04:28.420 it's called Heroes of 1776. They are heroes. It ends with, as exactly it should, with a relationship

01:04:36.200 between Adams and Jefferson, if you'll permit me. You write, later in life, they set aside

01:04:42.080 their disagreements. Quote, you and I ought not to die before we have explained ourselves to each

01:04:46.680 other, Adams wrote to Jefferson. In the same spirit of unity that brought about the Declaration

01:04:51.300 and Constitution, they became friends again. In all, the pair went on to exchange over 150 letters,

01:04:57.340 many of them reflecting on the events that had led to the revolution. A letter from you calls

01:05:01.620 up recollections very dear to my mind, Jefferson wrote to Adams. It carries me back to the times

01:05:06.840 when, beset with difficulties and dangers, we were fellow laborers in the same cause,

01:05:13.140 struggling for what is most valuable to man, his right of self-government. And you finish the book

01:05:19.700 with the story of how Jefferson died.

01:05:22.900 Yeah.

01:05:23.580 Our illustrator, Chris Ellison,

01:05:26.040 really is historically sensitive,

01:05:28.180 but also able to bring these people to life

01:05:30.760 in a beautiful way.

01:05:32.080 And that deathbed scene of Jefferson

01:05:33.900 is exactly how it's been recorded

01:05:36.080 historically correctly.

01:05:39.440 Those people were around his bed

01:05:41.180 at the time he passed.

01:05:42.960 And I think their story is kind of inspiring,

01:05:46.620 particularly in our times, right?

01:05:48.080 We think we have disagreements, and we do, and I don't want to belittle them.

01:05:53.340 But so did Adams and Jefferson.

01:05:56.100 They fought tooth and nail.

01:05:58.200 They said some pretty terrible things about each other while they each was in office.

01:06:02.940 And they didn't speak for years.

01:06:04.960 This after being really the moving forces behind the Declaration and writing the Declaration together.

01:06:12.700 But yet later in life, they came to realize that really more united them than divided them.

01:06:18.080 And it really was all around the ideals of the Declaration.

01:06:23.180 I'm going to read a little bit more from the book in a bit, but I want to switch, if you don't mind, to a little bit about you.

01:06:28.260 I'd love to share some of your personal bio with the audience because they know who you are, but not everybody knows who you are, right?

01:06:35.500 So you're from Denver, but also Maryland.

01:06:39.940 Explain your background to us a little bit.

01:06:41.660 Yeah, no, I grew up in Colorado.

01:06:42.960 That's exactly right.

01:06:43.820 My family's four generations Coloradan and very proud and pleased to have so much family there.

01:06:51.460 I spent as much time there as I can possibly get away with, with my day job.

01:06:55.340 But I've got an unusual assignment that has taken me away.

01:07:01.040 Yes. All right. So now you, is it true that you grew up in a family where your mom was conservative and your dad was liberal?

01:07:06.160 No, I wouldn't put it that way at all. Yeah. No, my mom was very much a Republican activist.

01:07:13.820 And if you want to call it that, very involved in politics.

01:07:17.440 My father, I think, was a moderate Republican is the way I describe him.

01:07:24.000 And how did they raise their kids?

01:07:26.340 Were they tough on you?

01:07:27.500 You're the oldest, my understanding is.

01:07:29.160 Were they tough on you guys?

01:07:30.120 Did they make you—like, I talked to RFKJ, and in the Kennedy family, you had to have

01:07:35.440 three articles from the newspaper read by the time you got to dinner, and you were going

01:07:39.400 to have to stand up and summarize one, and then there would be a debate that followed.

01:07:43.140 What was it like in the Gorsuch family?

01:07:44.520 You know, I think we're pretty typical of that period.

01:07:46.480 By the way, I have the best brother and sister and some wonderful step-siblings, too.

01:07:51.600 I'm just very blessed in my family.

01:07:54.280 When I have difficult times, I have them no matter what.

01:07:57.800 And I love them very, very much.

01:08:00.060 But we were latchkey kids like everybody in Gen X.

01:08:04.080 Yep.

01:08:04.320 And we went about the day and, you know, you had to be home by the time it was dark.

01:08:09.080 And that was about it.

01:08:10.100 And, you know, I think about we all have stories about our own childhood and interesting and difficult challenges.

01:08:19.200 And we think we've got amazing stories.

01:08:21.940 But I hope actually the kids who read this book will find inspirations for them and realize what they can do and the courage that is within them.

01:08:32.480 We tell the story, you know, I think my childhood, nothing on the patch of like Emily Geiger, who was an 18-year-old, who was asked to pass a message from a patriot general to another patriot general, but had to go through British lines to do it.

01:08:49.340 And she volunteered when no one else would.

01:08:51.940 She rode on her horse.

01:08:53.220 She got captured by British troops.

01:08:56.160 She read the message.

01:08:58.200 She swallowed the paper on which it was written.

01:09:01.340 She then escaped the British troops and rode on.

01:09:05.100 And, you know, think about the courage and the sacrifice of those kids during the course of the revolution.

01:09:12.360 Daniel Hale was 21 years old when he was put to death for being a spy.

01:09:17.440 Oh, my gosh, that's crazy.

01:09:19.160 The one that didn't make it in, Megan, that just really, I wish it had, but, you know, there's only so much room.

01:09:24.460 Richard Lloyd-Jones was 10 years old when he joined up the Continental Army as a pfeiffer.

01:09:30.060 marching alongside the troops suffering the same hardships he served for three years

01:09:35.580 and then he walked home 150 miles by himself wow it's like the stories that we joke about

01:09:44.660 our grandparents telling us only it really happened right all right now not not to give

01:09:49.800 you too much credit and compare you to that but you had your own act of courage in being an open

01:09:55.960 conservative at Harvard Law School. That is very bold, very bold. And I wanted to ask you about it

01:10:03.120 because I think our founders would be shocked to see how difficult it is for especially right

01:10:09.980 leaning young people to own their politics in school. That they, you know, if discussions come

01:10:16.260 up about Columbus Day or the Supreme Court or the presidential election, many young conservatives

01:10:23.780 feel the need to keep their mouths shut. What do you make of that?

01:10:27.780 I love our First Amendment and the opportunity to speak your mind, and you should do so freely

01:10:33.400 and bravely, and whatever point of view you have. And I think if you look back through our history,

01:10:39.420 you're going to realize that what seems hard or unique in your own times, and I'm not denying the

01:10:45.180 reality of those things, you're going to find echoes of it, and you're going to learn how to

01:10:49.500 deal with it when you study your history. And you're going to see, you want to talk about

01:10:53.980 suppressing people you disagree with. Well, you know, John Adams signed the Alien and Sedition

01:11:00.400 Act, made it a crime to speak negatively about the president of the United States,

01:11:06.100 jailed publishers who criticized him and called him fat and bald and querulous. And I think it 0.55

01:11:12.280 was all of those things. So we've all had, we all face our own challenges, but I think you can take

01:11:18.900 strength and find heroes to emulate when you bother to look through the pages of history.

01:11:26.880 Was it, I mean, you're just a little older than I am, but like when I went to school in the 80s,

01:11:33.840 you could say whatever you wanted. No one cared. Like the way I remembered anyway was

01:11:38.600 you'd get more pats on the head if you espoused liberal points of view, but it wasn't really

01:11:44.580 required in order to get ahead everywhere, the way it seems to be today. So just to the many,

01:11:50.980 many young people who have asked me directly, Justice Gorsuch, you don't have access to you,

01:11:56.060 should they go along to get along, to get a pat on the head and an A if asked about their politics,

01:12:01.980 do you think? Like young kids who are at college, you want to go to med school or law school or

01:12:05.400 grad school, should they play the game or should they say what they actually believe and take the

01:12:13.480 lower grade if they must. First, I say to young kids like that, learn, right? Before you criticize,

01:12:21.060 before you say you know how the world should be changed, make sure you know what you're talking

01:12:25.760 about, okay? Before you want to tear down that gate, make sure you know why the gate was put

01:12:31.320 there in the first place, because maybe it's holding back a herd of buffalo, all right? But

01:12:35.100 once you've educated yourself and you really do feel like you know something about what you're

01:12:40.360 talking about. Yes. Remember what it was like back in 1776. Not everybody did stand up. Would

01:12:48.500 you have had the bravery to be a patriot? Right? Would you have been one of the silent majority

01:12:53.840 who just tried to stay out of it? And aren't you glad some people did stand up? And what a

01:12:59.500 difference they made and what a difference you can make when you come to it with a kind of knowledge,

01:13:04.180 thoughtfulness, deliberation, and courage, and a willingness to sacrifice. You have to remember,

01:13:09.500 like most of the men who signed the declaration gave their fortunes to the revolution. They died

01:13:16.660 poorer for the cause. They gave it everything they had. We tell the story, for example, of

01:13:22.520 one of the founders from Virginia, Thomas Nelson, who was head of the militia at Yorktown.

01:13:32.700 And when he saw that the British were using his home as their headquarters, he didn't hesitate

01:13:36.900 to order his men to open fire on it. And having given so much to the revolutionary cause, he died

01:13:43.120 so poor that they buried his body in a hidden grave so his creditors couldn't dig it up and

01:13:50.860 hold it as collateral for payment. And when he died, he was asked whether he was bitter about

01:13:57.000 his experiences, and he said he'd do it all over again. And I do think, yes, you need to stand up

01:14:03.540 and be counted, but make sure you do it for the right reasons and with full knowledge of what

01:14:08.660 you're involved in. I think some people believe that we were a hardier stock back then. I don't

01:14:15.520 disagree with that. Yeah, I cover the news every day. I was going to say, some people are weaker

01:14:20.380 today and some people were weaker back then, but we still have a lot of strong people, old and

01:14:24.780 young. What's your take on it? Absolutely. People ask me all the time, are you an optimist or a

01:14:30.120 pessimist. And I struggle with that. But at the end of the day, I'm an optimist. I just spent

01:14:35.020 yesterday at the Reagan Library talking to kids. It was fantastic. It's amazing. And I remember his

01:14:40.840 optimism for the country, right? America's days were ahead of us, he said, in 1980. Well, I remember

01:14:47.700 1980. And we had inflation and interest rates, about 20%. We couldn't fly a helicopter across

01:14:55.600 the desert to rescue hostages. Everybody was lining up for gasoline, Vietnam, Watergate,

01:15:03.400 the riots of the 60s. People really did think America's best days were behind. And he said,

01:15:09.220 no. And I don't see any reason why we should disagree with Ronald Reagan's assessment today.

01:15:15.900 And so, yes, I am an optimist. But I do think it takes courage, right? Somebody has to run the zoo.

01:15:22.260 And so those brave young people, get yourself educated and then get involved.

01:15:28.700 Now, I understand you, because after you went to Columbia for college, to Harvard for law school, and then you wound up in Oxford for, if I'm not mistaken, a degree, an advanced degree in philosophy.

01:15:41.040 And there you met your beautiful wife, and she's a Brit?

01:15:45.800 She's a proud Brit, but she's a proud American, too.

01:15:49.660 She took the citizenship test, which, you know, distresses me to know that only about six in 10 adult Americans can pass the citizenship.

01:15:58.300 Megan, it is not hard.

01:15:59.740 I helped her study for it.

01:16:03.120 But she loved it.

01:16:04.600 Was there any tension in you writing the book, you know, when you got to the part of the separation?

01:16:10.280 No, she she she loves this country.

01:16:13.960 She loves the American West. 0.98

01:16:15.840 she's a cowgirl at heart and spends a part of every day on a horse. And that is a very

01:16:23.060 grounding thing for both of us. But she does like to lord over some of the British stuff.

01:16:28.780 Reminding me that we owe so much to Britain in this country, including the fact that about half

01:16:34.400 of our city and state names are derivative of towns in Britain, New York, New Jersey,

01:16:40.560 Maryland, as she would say, Virginia. Yeah. Mm hmm. Here in New York, Sutton Place,

01:16:47.160 there's all sorts of ones. I don't I mean, when you guys are together, is it I mean, do you favor

01:16:52.880 Wills and Kate or Megan and Harry? Where do you land on that? You're going to have to ask her

01:16:59.140 that, Megan. I don't. That's not my world. She sounds like a sensible woman. And so therefore,

01:17:05.420 it's clearly Wills and Kate, which I support. I'm glad to hear that. I'll just say, I'll fill in

01:17:11.260 the blank for you. So, so you've, you're married, you have friendships. You told me the last time

01:17:17.420 on the court, we talked a little bit about how cordial everybody is. Is there any, who's, if

01:17:21.900 you're a Thomas Jefferson, who's your John Adams? Who's your, you know, maybe there's some friction

01:17:26.120 at time, but there's just a ton of respect. And in the end you wind up true friends.

01:17:29.720 There are many of them. I'm never going to convince Sonia Sotomayor or Steve Breyer about

01:17:40.200 originalism. That's just not going to happen. I mean, Steve's written like three books telling

01:17:43.980 me why I'm wrong about originalism. But we know we're going to disagree over cases. That's not

01:17:50.420 a surprise to us. I mean, lawyers, as you well know, that's the stock in trade. We're going to

01:17:54.980 disagree, and we're going to have different points of view about interpreting the law.

01:17:59.200 But I do sit around the table from eight other people every day who I know love this country

01:18:04.420 and love our Constitution and love the Declaration every bit as much as I do.

01:18:09.500 And when you remember that about people with whom you disagree, if you assume they're operating

01:18:14.120 in good faith, I'm not saying everybody is, but start with that assumption and then listen.

01:18:19.800 And if you listen to them long enough, you're going to find something in there you're going

01:18:24.140 to agree on and maybe you start there yes just their humanity start by seeing their humanity

01:18:30.800 and i love the formality of the procedures with amongst the nine of you with the you know when

01:18:35.660 you go into conference it's just there are certain commitments to decorum that we've lost in so many

01:18:41.620 other areas of life that i really appreciate you guys upholding shake hands i'll ask you on that

01:18:47.040 every time we get together we do not interrupt each other as i'm sorry i just did you um no no

01:18:53.800 speaking to each other around the conference table. And we listen. We spend most of our time

01:18:59.460 listening to each other. So how rattling, if I may ask, was the leak of the Dobbs decision,

01:19:07.860 given the close relationship with it? I mean, that must have been, it must have shaken you.

01:19:13.700 Well, I think like everything else, it's a balance, right? Between transparency on the one

01:19:19.720 hand and privacy on the other. Transparency in the court, you get a lot of it. You can hear our

01:19:26.220 arguments live streamed orally every day. There it is for anybody who wants to listen to it.

01:19:32.500 I find it's often good to put people, it'll put you to bed really easy often.

01:19:38.900 Does it ever put you to bed?

01:19:41.380 No, it's my job. And we're wonderful lawyers. And then, of course, you get our opinions published

01:19:47.360 so you can see exactly what we think at the end of the day about the case.

01:19:50.940 At the same time, you clearly do need room to be able to talk to one another, right?

01:19:55.600 To discuss the case candidly and to find those places where we can agree.

01:20:01.700 And that's important too.

01:20:03.820 And our founders knew this as well in the course of their deliberations, right?

01:20:07.960 The Constitutional Convention, they locked the windows in the heat of the summer months

01:20:14.680 in Philadelphia and closed the doors.

01:20:16.800 Think about how hot that was.

01:20:18.900 Were there leaks there?

01:20:21.020 Well, there may well have been.

01:20:24.160 I don't know, Megan.

01:20:25.260 But they made serious efforts so that they could speak candidly with one another and find the places where they could agree.

01:20:32.840 And James Madison said at the end of it all that he really doesn't think the Constitution would have ever happened otherwise.

01:20:38.980 Interesting.

01:20:42.080 So you're not taking my bait on whether you were rattled by the leak?

01:20:46.800 I think I'm going to give you the same answer, Megan. I think, you know, you have to have room for us to be able to write our drafts, to talk to one another, to deliberate privately, and then balance that with transparency. And I think both are important in our line of work.

01:21:04.360 Yeah. Yeah. And is, I mean, 99.99% of the time respected by everyone, the justices and the

01:21:12.820 clerks and everybody who's court staff, many of whom I know and think the world of. And if you

01:21:18.720 are very, very lucky, then at the end of your life, you will have a farewell like our friend TJ

01:21:23.920 did. This is from the book. Again, it is The Heroes of 1776 by Justice Neil Gorsuch and Janie

01:21:32.480 Nitze, his co-author, and you write as follows about Jefferson and Adams. The two men who had

01:21:39.920 devoted their lives to the cause of freedom died just hours apart on the same day, July 4th, 1826,

01:21:48.260 the 50th anniversary of the adoption of the Declaration of Independence. Jefferson's health

01:21:53.460 had been declining for years, and by late June, he could hardly rise from his bed. Yet his mind

01:21:58.740 remained clear. Sensing his end was near, he penned a final letter declaring all eyes are opened or

01:22:06.400 opening to the rights of man. On July 3rd, Jefferson slipped in and out of sleep, waking

01:22:13.060 briefly in the evening to whisper, is it the fourth? He drew his final breath a little past

01:22:20.120 noon the following day. Oh, I mean, it's gotten me every time I've read it. Is there any, is there

01:22:27.840 anything that we could feel so pulled to, so tight to, so important to us in modern-day

01:22:34.280 American, modern-day America, Justice Gorsuch, that could bring that kind of importance to us,

01:22:39.620 you know? I think there's a frustration. We want something that big again in our lives.

01:22:43.860 Those men fought and died and risked everything they had. And we tell the stories of their

01:22:48.520 suffering, too, between the time they signed the declaration and that end you just read,

01:22:53.620 where they were hunted men. Third of them lost their homes. Many of them were imprisoned,

01:22:59.780 had their wives in prison, their children in prison for those three great ideas in the

01:23:04.060 declaration. And we are a creedal nation, Megan. We are not founded around any religion

01:23:09.300 or any particular ethnicity. What we share is a commitment to those three ideas. And I do think

01:23:17.060 Those three ideas have led men and women to fight and die for 250 years, and they're worth

01:23:24.240 our time and our sacrifice in whatever little modest things we can give with what few skills

01:23:30.360 God has given each of us to continue to carry that torch forward.

01:23:34.960 Because if we don't, it will fall.

01:23:38.680 Nothing about it is inevitable.

01:23:40.200 It's up to each of us.

01:23:42.880 Amen.

01:23:43.920 Beautifully said.

01:23:44.560 All right.

01:23:45.520 I only have a minute left with you in the time I have.

01:23:47.960 Can we do a couple of quick, fun hits?

01:23:50.120 Because this will be a lightning round where you can decline to answer if you want, but

01:23:54.540 I think you'll give it to us.

01:23:55.840 Who's your closest friend on the court?

01:23:57.100 Oh, no.

01:23:58.060 I love each of them.

01:23:59.400 But let me celebrate Clarence Thomas today, just because he is now the second longest

01:24:05.220 serving justice in the Supreme Court's history.

01:24:09.100 And that is a great scholar of the Constitution and also a dear friend, as all of them are.

01:24:15.520 and I just celebrate him today

01:24:17.700 for his contributions to our country.

01:24:19.980 We join you in that 100%.

01:24:21.980 Is it true you went to prep school with Justice Kavanaugh?

01:24:26.260 Ah, so fun.

01:24:27.480 What was the last movie that you saw

01:24:29.380 that you would recommend?

01:24:30.340 I enjoyed Hail Mary.

01:24:33.000 Oh, very nice, okay.

01:24:33.840 Now though I'm watching a streaming series

01:24:36.320 about cold hits, a prison of war camp 0.83

01:24:38.320 that the British just loved to escape from

01:24:40.220 during World War II.

01:24:41.180 I'm a big World War II buff. 0.91

01:24:42.780 Oh, that sounds perfect for you and your wife

01:24:45.200 in particular. Um, do you read for pleasure or are you so exhausted by the end of a day that

01:24:50.080 you can't? Yes, I do read for pleasure. What's your, what's your favorite genre? Oh, I love

01:24:55.620 novels, um, because I read a lot of nonfiction in my day job. Um, and, um, they, they speak to

01:25:02.020 the human heart in a way that nonfiction often can't. Do you go out to dinner in, in around

01:25:08.480 Washington, DC? Absolutely. I've got a great life. Like a normal person. You just make a

01:25:13.840 reservation, you kind of show up. It's like you and Chief Justice Roberts and you sit there and

01:25:18.540 get like calamari. We live remarkably normal lives. I got to tell you, Megan, it's a pretty

01:25:26.880 normal life. I ride my bike to work. I come home. I put on the barbecue and make burgers for my

01:25:32.440 daughter and my wife and feed the dog. You know, that's my life. Wow. That's why you seem normal

01:25:40.440 because you actually are. And we're really lucky, really lucky that you've agreed to spend your

01:25:45.260 life in public service as opposed to making tens of millions of dollars in private practice as you

01:25:49.020 and all your brethren on the high court could. Thanks for writing this book. Thanks for coming

01:25:53.340 on and talking to our audience so openly. We really appreciate it.

01:25:55.980 Megan, thank you very much. Very grateful.

01:25:58.820 Wow. All the best to you. Justice Neil Gorsuch, everybody. The book is Heroes of 1776,

01:26:04.920 the story of the Declaration of Independence.

01:26:08.600 It's in stores right now.

01:26:10.620 Get a bunch of copies.

01:26:11.880 You can give them out now through the rest of the year

01:26:14.460 to celebrate our 250th.

01:26:16.800 Wow, great idea.

01:26:18.460 Okay, we will be right back with some more news

01:26:20.300 after this quick break.

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01:28:53.460 We go from Justice Neil Gorsuch to Blake Lively and J.P. Morgan.

01:29:14.180 And there's some very interesting news on Kim Kardashian.

01:29:17.500 Legal news, that is.

01:29:18.820 But I didn't have it in me to ask Justice Gorsuch about it.

01:29:22.000 You'll see why.

01:29:23.460 See if I can get to it all. Well, I'll give you the quick Kim Kardashian headline just because

01:29:26.760 it's quick. She's no longer going to be pursuing the bar exam that she failed last year. She tried 1.00

01:29:33.280 to take the baby bar exam, which is basically what you take when you're not learning about 0.98

01:29:36.880 the law from a law school. You're doing an apprenticeship like she was. And you take that

01:29:41.660 after your first year of study. And she failed that three times. And then I guess finally passed

01:29:46.280 it and continued on and tried to take the real bar exam last year and failed that. And thank God

01:29:51.640 almighty. She has now abandoned her goals of practicing law. So the bar exam did its job. 0.93

01:29:58.460 The bar exam worked. It's meant to screen out people who have no business practicing law, 1.00

01:30:02.560 and she is one of them. Okay. By the way, just a call back to November of 2025 when she posted a

01:30:09.320 video about preparing for the bar. And in just this one, just this one little screen grab of

01:30:15.020 her writing. She spelled dormant wrong, as in dormant commerce clause, D-O-R-M-A-N-T. She

01:30:22.620 spelled it dormant, M-I-N-T. She spelled substantive due process wrong. She spelled

01:30:27.820 substantive, S-U-B-S-T-A-tive, substantive. She spelled eerie doctrine wrong, as in E-R-I-E.

01:30:37.440 She spelled it E-A-R-I-E, like your ear. 0.99

01:30:41.780 I mean, this woman should not be anywhere near a courtroom. 1.00

01:30:46.800 Sweetheart, you keep putting those silicon whatever things on your breasts with the points and going to the Met Gala. 1.00

01:30:53.800 That is where you belong.

01:30:55.400 You do it very well.

01:30:56.880 The line of skims is excellent, and you're very good at beauty.

01:31:01.800 No one would ever take that away from you.

01:31:03.900 Leave the lawyering to the smart people, okay?

01:31:06.580 Okay. Blake Lively. It's now come out, went to the Met Gala without Ryan Reynolds because, quote,

01:31:17.120 they both felt this moment should be hers, reports the Daily Mail. Here she is in her dress that

01:31:23.140 looks like sherbet. It looks exactly like the tri-offering of sherbet that you get,

01:31:28.000 you know, like the purple, the orange, and the pink. That's what she wore to the Met Gala.

01:31:33.140 The Daily Mail goes on.

01:31:34.300 Once the settlement started to feel like a very real possibility,

01:31:36.920 that's when she decided to go to the Met Gala.

01:31:38.720 In her mind, if things worked out, it could be a bit of a victory lap,

01:31:42.300 a way of showing she's still standing after everything and is ready to move forward.

01:31:47.160 Oh, still standing after she tried to unjustly ruin a man's life?

01:31:49.840 Good for her.

01:31:50.480 Look, so strong.

01:31:52.060 Such a role model.

01:31:53.800 She's done letting this court battle dictate her life

01:31:56.440 and wants to get back to work and rebuild her career. 1.00

01:31:59.320 Who let it dictate her life? 1.00

01:32:00.560 She filed. 0.99

01:32:01.820 She's the one who started this whole thing. 0.92

01:32:03.920 She makes it sound like she was victimized. 0.59

01:32:06.020 Being there gave her an ego boost.

01:32:08.420 Oh my God, what a small person.

01:32:10.260 Because people who don't know you

01:32:11.460 are trying to make a dime off of photographing you

01:32:13.420 say, Blake, Blake, Blake.

01:32:14.980 I have bad news for you, Blake.

01:32:16.420 They did it to me too when I was there.

01:32:17.960 And trust me, I'm meaningless to them too.

01:32:20.640 And she loved that she's still part of the conversation.

01:32:24.760 I mean, if that's true,

01:32:26.200 she is more oblivious than we knew.

01:32:28.560 Are you aware what part of the conversation you're in? 0.96

01:32:30.980 the part about soulless grifters who try to get ahead in life by hurting others without any

01:32:37.500 empathy or guilt or compunction about what they're doing to innocence. That's the part you're in. 0.97

01:32:45.260 They report that Ryan and Blake were always united during this, but we're not always on

01:32:49.620 the same page. Reportedly, he has always wanted her to settle and move forward and that this has

01:32:56.160 been bad for her and bad for their careers, both of them, and an enormous amount of stress for them

01:33:01.100 both. And she wanted to keep going and keep going. Apparently, they say this is according to an

01:33:06.780 industry insider who understands he is so closely associated with her, Ryan Reynolds, and she has

01:33:12.780 become toxic. So I'm sure he did not love that. Ryan stopped wanting to talk about it, apparently,

01:33:18.480 according to the Daily Mail. He was sick of her droning on and on about it, and it really

01:33:21.880 reverted to only listening mode. Ask yourself how this wound up in the Daily Mail. Who wanted us to

01:33:28.160 know that? Could it be Ryan? Honestly. They report that at the gala, she made a point of going up to

01:33:35.700 people she hadn't seen in a while. Really friendly with Beyonce, Rihanna, and Heidi Klum. The lawsuit

01:33:42.080 turned her into somewhat of a pariah, they report, especially when they learned that Taylor Swift

01:33:47.380 had cooled on her. The feeling is the event was her way of signaling. She's back in the fold.

01:33:53.100 She seemed genuinely relieved last night. Great. I hope you are. It's over. This piece is over.

01:33:59.380 Now you have only to rescue your reputation from the gutter. The only way I see for you

01:34:05.140 is having your husband produce your next movie. There's just no way the next movie won't either

01:34:10.600 be produced by him or a favor to him because there's no audience for Blake Lively. There are

01:34:16.620 like 10 woke women on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, and that's it. You can't really have 1.00

01:34:22.220 a movie career based on that. So I hope you enjoyed the Met Gala. It's probably your last

01:34:27.080 time for a while of feeling adored. By the way, they also report that her brand deals were very

01:34:33.520 nervous with this whole thing when the PR hits were being, you know, suffered by Blake. Everyone

01:34:40.200 was like, she's going to have to fix this. People are turning on her. She's got a course correct. 0.95

01:34:44.060 We've been spooked by her. She tried to blame that all on Justin, but it was really her own doing.

01:34:49.740 Okay, J.P. Morgan. There's an update in this bizarre case that we've all been covering.

01:34:54.480 If you haven't seen last Thursday's episode with Adam Carolla, please go back.

01:34:59.020 As I mentioned to you yesterday, we learned that he produced two allegedly independent affidavits from friends who claim to have seen this J.P. Morgan exec, Lorna.

01:35:14.060 flirt with him. One claimed he saw her come out in the man's apartment naked and suggest that they

01:35:20.280 have a threesome together. This is all strongly, strongly denied by Lorna Hajdini, the person

01:35:26.740 being blamed for this man's weird problems, and by J.P. Morgan. Now we've learned two things today,

01:35:33.000 that for a time, prosecutors obviously, at this plaintiff's request, had opened a criminal

01:35:38.700 investigation into these allegations, but guess what? They declined to pursue any charges due to

01:35:45.620 a lack of evidence. I'm sorry, people, but if he had all these nasty voicemails and these

01:35:53.140 threatening text messages and two independent eyewitnesses who are totally credible who backed

01:35:58.840 him up, she came out naked and wanted a threesome, and I saw her fondling him in a way that made him

01:36:04.040 uncomfortable, they'd be interested in this. J.P. Morgan would have been interested in this 0.94

01:36:09.940 and the police would have been interested in this. I don't know what's wrong with this gentleman,

01:36:14.360 but it's something. I told you yesterday that we learned via the New York Post that he said his

01:36:21.440 father had died and he took a three-month bereavement leave from J.P. Morgan, which was

01:36:26.400 a lie. His father is alive and well. So clearly this is a serial fabulist and we have only to

01:36:33.080 determine which portions of his tale are untrue. Is it all? Is it 100%? Did they have a relationship

01:36:41.880 or an interlude that he blew up into this massive sexual harassment campaign? Is there a world in

01:36:49.440 which it's all true? And JP Morgan just decided to look the other way and so did the cops because

01:36:55.280 he's claiming she roofied him and then gave him Viagra so that he could perform sexually and then 0.99

01:37:01.780 raped him. Using that word, that would be rape. If she had sex with him while he was roofied by 1.00

01:37:08.140 her, that would be rape. Clearly, the NYPD did not buy it, and nor do I. They now have to admit, 0.92

01:37:17.760 the lawyer tried to tell the Daily Mail, oh, as far as we know, that investigation is still open.

01:37:22.260 And then when the DA's office was asked, they made clear the inquiry was closed after they found

01:37:29.420 no evidence of wrongdoing. The Daily Mail is reporting, and even the lawyer had to come back

01:37:34.980 and admit that is true. Now, today, just as we come to air, the Wall Street Journal adds to the

01:37:41.780 reporting that JPMorgan Chase did offer this plaintiff, Chirayu Rana, $1 million to settle

01:37:51.540 sexual assault and harassment claims brought by this man before he actually filed the lawsuit.

01:37:58.100 Now, I'm sure you at home are thinking that's a big old chunk of change for somebody who didn't do anything, but I would urge you to remember this is not like suing the Megyn Kelly show. We don't have millions to spare, but JP Morgan does.

01:38:11.540 And so to them, the value of like nuisance value to make this nutcase go away and to preserve the reputation of what's by all account a very respected, valued senior person at their bank, this Lorna Hajdini, that's really not a big deal.

01:38:31.160 A million dollars is nothing.

01:38:32.360 It's nothing to them.

01:38:33.900 And also when you're dealing with a man who might be unwell, like it looks like he's had several jobs over the past 10 years.

01:38:40.540 He left J.P. Morgan last April and went to a new firm, I think someplace around last April, went to a new firm.

01:38:47.340 He didn't even last a year.

01:38:48.760 He's already gone from that firm.

01:38:50.460 He's been at several other firms, the business with the dad and the bereavement leave.

01:38:55.380 Where's the wife, by the way?

01:38:56.680 He claims he was being harassed.

01:38:59.000 You know, Anna raised that yesterday on set.

01:39:02.360 Like, where's the wife?

01:39:03.100 Well, he's allegedly claiming she kept going back to his apartment and insisting he service her and so on and so forth.

01:39:07.880 I thought there was a wife in the picture.

01:39:11.220 What does she say?

01:39:12.580 She doesn't appear to be a persuasive witness

01:39:14.560 if she has anything of value

01:39:15.680 because no one's believing these two or him.

01:39:18.820 In any event, Wall Street Journal says

01:39:20.180 they did offer to settle for a million bucks,

01:39:22.100 equivalent to less than two years

01:39:23.520 of his compensation at the bank.

01:39:25.460 He rejected it and asked for more money.

01:39:27.840 In a statement, a JP Morgan spokesperson said,

01:39:30.400 we did try to reach an agreement

01:39:31.420 to avoid the time and expense of litigation

01:39:33.080 and to support an employee who is being threatened

01:39:35.600 with the very reputational harm now unfolding.

01:39:38.500 We continue to believe these allegations

01:39:40.000 have no merit, and new information raised as a result of the public filing only reinforces that

01:39:46.400 conclusion. Don't forget, they earlier said she fully cooperated with the investigation they did

01:39:51.160 internally, gave her phone, gave her emails, gave everything. He didn't. If he's such a righteous

01:39:57.480 victim, why didn't he give everything? Give your phone, give it over. If you're a victim, what do

01:40:02.800 you have to hide? Why wouldn't you cooperate? Lawyers for Rana and J.P. Morgan started weeks

01:40:08.900 of mediation talks in early 2026, according to his claims. In March, they offered him a million

01:40:17.800 dollars to settle his claims. Rana did not accept or reject it in early April. So now we're getting

01:40:23.720 closer to when he filed. He was let go from his new job, let go, at Briegel Sagemount. The firm

01:40:31.120 did not respond to a request for comment, but has previously said he was no longer an employee as

01:40:35.160 of April 2nd. In April, Ronna's lawyers, that's the plaintiff, countered the $1 million offer

01:40:40.380 with a demand for $11.75 million. Okay, that's crazy talk. Last week, Ronna's lawyers filed

01:40:47.980 the lawsuit in New York State Court. Yes, Jane Doe. The lawyer's now saying the original lawsuit

01:40:53.900 was not withdrawn. After filing, the court clerk informed us that the suit required review and

01:40:59.980 sign off from the judge before it could be filed under a pseudonym, John Doe. Upon signature by

01:41:05.760 the judge, the suit was formally filed under a pseudonym. I mean, what's the point now? Everybody

01:41:09.680 knows his name. And by the way, we should know his name. It's crazy how we afford this cloak

01:41:16.620 of anonymity to anybody claiming that they were assaulted sexually or, God forbid, a rape victim.

01:41:21.880 It's not that I have no empathy for them. It's just not fair. It's like if the defendant's going

01:41:27.400 to have his or her name dragged through the mud as this poor Lorna Hajdini is. The plaintiff ought

01:41:33.420 to be willing to be identified and to stand behind his or her allegations. Through a J.P. Morgan

01:41:39.740 spokesperson, Hajdini's lawyers say she continues to categorically deny these allegations. She never

01:41:46.960 dated this individual, never had a sexual or romantic encounter with him of any kind, and

01:41:53.600 never gave him any drugs. She maintains that his false claims are entirely fabricated and

01:41:59.080 tarnishing her reputation. That's actually a much stronger statement than what we knew of earlier.

01:42:04.640 That is categorical. Categorically denies the allegations, never dated him, never had a sexual

01:42:10.400 or romantic encounter with him of any kind, never gave him any drugs. That's a good denial.

01:42:16.780 We shall see as this weird, weird case continues to play out.

01:42:22.980 Thank you.

01:42:23.640 Thank you all so much for joining us.

01:42:24.940 It's been quite a show, hasn't it?

01:42:26.460 I don't even remember.

01:42:26.980 Like we started with crazy Katie Porter, went to Iran, Justice Gorsuch, Kim Kardashian,

01:42:33.240 J.P. Morgan, Blake Lively.

01:42:34.520 Just a typical day here on the MK Show.

01:42:36.860 Thanks for being along for the ride.

01:42:38.680 Tucker Carlson's my guest tomorrow.

01:42:40.540 That'll be fun too.

01:42:42.580 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:42:44.540 no BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 06, 2026

Katie Porter MELTDOWN, and Obama's Marriage Tension, with Sohrab Ahmari and Sean Davis, Plus Justice Gorsuch on America's 250th Birthday ｜ Ep. 1311

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