The Megyn Kelly Show - Kyle Rittenhouse Found Not Guilty on All Counts, with Glenn Greenwald, Andrew Branca, Mark Eiglarsh, and Angenette Levy

00:00:00.500 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.780 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.020 Hail to the chief. Kamala Harris is now President Harris. Have you heard the news?

00:00:19.220 Yes, President Biden has briefly handed over his presidential powers to Kamala Harris this morning.

00:00:24.620 We'll explain why. But we're going to begin the show today with day four of jury deliberations.

00:00:30.340 Now underway in Kenosha, Wisconsin. The jury has now deliberated longer than the juries of O.J. Simpson, Casey Anthony, Derek Chauvin, and George Zimmerman.

00:00:38.580 I'm joined now by Anjanette Levy, a reporter with Law and Crime who has been at the Kenosha courthouse for the duration of the trial.

00:00:47.020 We've been showing you some of her videos this week. Welcome, Anjanette. Thanks for being here.

00:00:50.860 Well, Megyn, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

00:00:53.360 Sure. So set the scene for us. They began, I guess, would have been two hours ago or two hours ago, Kenosha time, deliberating against. And what's happening there this morning?

00:01:03.920 Well, I just checked in with the clerk and she told me that the jury has ordered lunch. There was a rumor flying around the courthouse that they had declined a lunch order. That's not true.

00:01:14.160 They ordered Subway. And she said when it arrives, when it gets here, they will eat. So they are still deliberating. And this all came, of course, after last night when the jury was dismissed, a little after four central time, five eastern time.

00:01:28.260 And one of the female jurors asked whether she could take the jury instructions home with her. And the judge allowed it, despite defense attorney Mark Richards shaking his head no and, you know, objecting to that just with a head shake.

00:01:42.660 The judge later put it on the record that he allowed them to take them home if they wished because he found them to be confusing. And he said that even the pundits on television said they were confusing.

00:01:53.580 Oh, boy. Oh, boy. I thought that was very bizarre. I've never seen a judge allow that before. Normally, all the all the deliberations take place in the deliberation room with the other jurors and you're not allowed to do at home study.

00:02:05.400 Here's a little bit of the clip where the judge asks counsel in front of the jury. I mean, it's one of these awkward things because each lawyer wants to be better liked by the jury.

00:02:14.700 And so you don't want to be the one being like, don't give her what she wants. But what choice did defense counsel have?

00:02:21.480 Well, he didn't want those jury instructions to go home. So you can see in this video what happens as the judge asks the question in front of the jurors and then kind of seems to realize his mistake. Watch.

00:02:32.580 Any questions? Anybody?

00:02:35.240 Whether or not I can take the jury instructions home.

00:02:40.400 Can you take the jury instructions home?

00:02:44.400 Yes.

00:02:44.800 Yes. But you obviously can't talk to anybody about that. I didn't see a reaction from the state side. I did see a wag of the head by Mr. Richards urging me to say no. But I did anyway. So did you want to make a record on it?

00:03:03.500 I just I'm afraid it's going to be the old dictionary game and they start defining words and things like that. The outside research.

00:03:10.360 Yeah.

00:03:10.900 That's my concern.

00:03:11.840 Well, actually, no, because they could do that at home without having the paperwork. And instead, they have the wonderful, concise jury instructions.

00:03:22.320 Oh, boy. So not only did she get the jury instructions, but he said all of them could take them home if they wanted. Was that do we know? It seems like the jury for a woman juror number 54 who asked to take them home.

00:03:36.100 I believe that is the jury for a woman. So maybe she's trying to, you know, herd the cats or something and take charge of this and move things forward. And so, you know, obviously, we would love to know what's going on in that deliberation room and where they're stuck.

00:03:53.320 Okay. And we don't know. Most people would agree at this point that they they are definitely stuck, that there's holdouts one way or the other, because it's as I point out, it's it's taken longer than a lot of complex and very, very public cases. It shouldn't be taking this long one way or the other. I want to get back to juror number 54 in one second. But first, you had a little bit of color from inside the courtroom when you I think it was defense attorney Mark Richards, who you saw and you asked a question of. Can you fill us in there?

00:04:20.280 Okay. Oh, yesterday. Yes. I asked him. He came into the courtroom and we, you know, anytime anybody enters that courtroom, we all turn immediately. What's going on? What's going on? And, you know, of course, we think he will know anything before us. And we said, what's going on? Or, you know, how are you doing? And he said, stressed. And he was just coming in to see if anything was happening, which was really a strange moment. But he he stressed.

00:04:48.560 I just saw him in the last 10, 15, 20 minutes. I saw him upstairs. I asked him how he was doing again today. And I said, I know that's a dumb question, because he obviously is stressed. And he said, there's nothing I can do. So he, you know, was coming in wondering if we knew anything yesterday.

00:05:07.320 Yeah, just in the last 20 minutes or so, I spoke with him and he they haven't heard anything.

00:05:12.860 It's excruciating for these lawyers not to mention. What's interesting is that they haven't asked any questions since.

00:05:20.980 Wednesday, yesterday, they went the whole day without a question and they haven't asked a question today either.

00:05:26.820 Mm hmm. They did ask the other day, dated November 17th, so two days ago, for several exhibits.

00:05:34.540 And the request is signed by presiding juror 54. Again, this woman. And it's a little bizarre.

00:05:40.900 I have to say the way it's worded is a little it's strange. It's she's commanding the judge to behave in certain ways.

00:05:47.080 And normally the relationship between jurors and the judge is deferential. He's kind of their boss.

00:05:53.240 He looks after them. He doesn't work for them. But her request reads as follows.

00:05:59.100 We could put it on the on the screen if we have it. Please prepare Mr. Rosenbaum's shooting.

00:06:05.000 Mr. Rosenbaum shooting. She means the video. And then she has sort of line a line underneath it.

00:06:11.900 FBI aerial with all points of interest marked drone video zoomed in image still zoomed in image still after Miss after Mr.

00:06:26.660 Rittenhouse put down the fire extinguisher full event.

00:06:29.940 One video in regular and slow motion. We will request when ready.

00:06:34.500 It just has some people raising their eyes as to is this woman maybe the potential holdout she seems to be in charge.

00:06:41.900 She seems to have a strong personality because she's ordering the judge around perhaps again when it comes to sending her home with her jury instructions.

00:06:47.620 And I've also heard reporting that she was one that some on the defense team had originally been worried about as someone who could be anti Kyle Rittenhouse be in her politics, you know, sort of more left leaning, more anti Second Amendment and more apt not to want to be on a unanimous jury that acquits him.

00:07:07.700 Yeah, it was interesting the way the note was worded, because you would think that they would just ask and in one of the notes they did ask whether they had to where they could view them and how.

00:07:22.660 But yeah, that was interesting. And the drone video, it was interesting because there was this whole argument in the courtroom about it.

00:07:29.540 And this, you know, the case law in Wisconsin says they have to come downstairs, but the judge sent it up on a laptop for them.

00:07:36.880 But the drone video they actually viewed in the courtroom and there was a lot of argument about that back and forth.

00:07:42.100 And the defense is seeking a mistrial over that, of course, because they say they received that lower resolution, lower quality version of it in the email transfer from the state.

00:07:52.220 So they came down to the courtroom to watch that. But yeah, it is very interesting that it is.

00:07:57.000 I mean, they are kind of in charge in a way, you know, they are the stars of the show that you don't see.

00:08:02.780 They hold, you know, Kyle Rittenhouse's fate in their hands.

00:08:07.140 So if they want to see the videos, I guess, you know, they want to see the videos.

00:08:11.060 But it is interesting how it was worded. You are right.

00:08:12.920 They're entitled to. Yeah, it's just the way I mean, I've been a juror.

00:08:16.040 I've been in lots of courtrooms for over a decade.

00:08:19.460 I've never I've never seen something. I mean, even a lawyer, a lawyer would never speak to a judge like this.

00:08:24.660 It's very commanding. I just wonder what, if anything, it tells us about her.

00:08:29.400 And we have no idea. I want to preface it with that.

00:08:31.640 We have no freaking clue what's going on in there.

00:08:33.480 This woman may or may not be for or against Kyle.

00:08:35.480 Who the heck knows is all desperate tea tea leaf reading from those of us on the outside who want information but cannot get it.

00:08:43.640 A question for you about that videotape, which has become so contentious and did the prosecution hand over to the defense exactly what it had.

00:08:53.360 It says it did and that somehow something on the defense counsel's laptop or computer compressed the video so that they had a poorer quality.

00:09:02.220 The defense says absolutely wrong that they nothing on her computer compressed anything.

00:09:08.300 This is how the prosecution gave it to them. And you can see we're showing it on the screen now.

00:09:12.540 The top version is the blurry version the defense got.

00:09:14.820 The bottom version is the clear version the prosecution had.

00:09:18.040 And the the question that some are asking is apparently there was a screenshot of Prosecutor Binger's computer that showed he had or maybe it was Krauss.

00:09:27.560 But one of those Krauss, yeah, who had handbrake on his computer.

00:09:32.900 And this is a this is a thing. Why is this a thing?

00:09:36.160 Explain what handbrake is and why people are concerned.

00:09:39.220 It's some kind of software that can do things to videos and edit them.

00:09:44.940 And I someone in the courtroom was explaining to me yesterday that it's more like you can use it to rip videos and things like that.

00:09:52.040 So there were people speculating on Twitter that, oh, he's got handbrake on his laptop.

00:09:57.740 So he must have done something. And just to let you know, we had a lengthy conversation about this amongst among us reporters sitting in the courtroom yesterday waiting for any piece of information.

00:10:07.840 And one of the other reporters in the courtroom told me that Apple actually weighed in on this because it apparently went from either an Outlook or a Gmail email to an Apple email.

00:10:19.700 And he claimed he read that, you know, Apple weighed in on this and said, well, of course, we compress a file when we have to compress it to send it through.

00:10:27.640 So there there's a lot of this is a pretty serious thing. I don't know if it say he's convicted.

00:10:34.840 I don't know if it would be serious enough to overturn the conviction and order a new trial.

00:10:40.860 But there is a lot of speculation about handbrake. And did the prosecution, you know, compress this and give them a blurry version so they wouldn't know about it?

00:10:50.560 That would be a really bad thing. And that's all speculation, I should say.

00:10:54.800 Right. And I think the prosecutor is denying that he did it. And the judge is saying he has his doubts and he may put them on the stand and take under oath testimony from the prosecution.

00:11:05.220 That all comes becomes relevant only if the jury can't reach a verdict and the judge wants to enter one or reaches a guilty plea, guilty verdict, and the judge may overrule it.

00:11:17.000 So that's I think he's postponing ruling on any of this until he has to, you know, if he's placed in a position where he has to.

00:11:23.800 All right. Let me ask you about the two other things.

00:11:27.640 Jump kick man is one of the people in this case who did not take the stand but is relevant because what Kyle Rittenhouse did to jump kick man, as he's become known, he's charged for.

00:11:38.520 He's charged with having recklessly endangered that guy. The guy ran over to him on videotape right before Kyle shot Gage Grosskreutz and he kicked Kyle in the face.

00:11:50.040 He took a flying leap, hence jump, and kicked Kyle. There's the still of it. I kicked Kyle in the face and Kyle fired off his gun.

00:11:58.820 He did not hit jump kick man, but he's been charged for firing the gun there. Now we know the identity of him, at least according to the Daily Mail.

00:12:08.100 This fact was originally broken by Dan O'Donnell of WISN 1130 talk talk show host out there.

00:12:14.080 He broke the story that the prosecution had indeed identified jump kick man.

00:12:20.060 Dan did not name him, but the Daily Mail is now saying it it has been in touch with this man.

00:12:25.140 His name is Maurice Friedland. According to the Daily Mail, he's 39 years old.

00:12:30.160 They claim he has admitted he is jump kick man. He's a career criminal.

00:12:35.120 And the reporting is that he he said to the D.A., Binger, I'll testify if you give me immunity because he was already facing criminal charges on other matters.

00:12:44.540 Serious domestic abuse charges. And Binger said no.

00:12:48.100 So this becomes a problem for the prosecution if, in fact, they knew who jump kick man was prior to the close of the evidence and did not disclose it to the defense.

00:12:58.180 Well, Megan, I actually it's I found out some information about this this morning and it's my understanding from a source that, you know, the defense learned about this during the first week of the trial, sometime midweek.

00:13:11.860 And the prosecution apparently was going to speak with Maurice Friedland.

00:13:17.860 So we don't know. And I'm still trying to work on finding out when the prosecution learned of his identity.

00:13:24.340 But the prosecution learned of it at some point in time.

00:13:27.240 We don't know if it was during the trial or before, but they were planning to interview him.

00:13:31.300 And as you stated, they did.

00:13:33.920 I confirm that Friedland wanted immunity in order to testify.

00:13:37.440 And Binger and Krauss said no.

00:13:40.260 So he didn't he didn't testify if he had been called to testify, he would have invoked his Fifth Amendment rights.

00:13:46.900 He wouldn't wouldn't have done it.

00:13:48.660 And there you have it.

00:13:50.200 So we now know who jump kick man is when the prosecution learned of his identity.

00:13:55.820 We don't know.

00:13:56.800 But there was some type of interview of him by the prosecution that sounds like it was going to take place during that first week of the trial.

00:14:04.440 Well, when you kicked off your statement about this, you said the defense learned who he was in the first week of the trial.

00:14:10.780 Did you mean to say that?

00:14:11.780 Did the defense know?

00:14:14.060 That's what I that is what I heard from a source that they found out sometime midweek in the first week of the trial.

00:14:20.260 OK, obviously, that's they learned of his identity.

00:14:23.100 If that's the case, then there should be no prejudice to Kyle Rittenhouse.

00:14:26.340 Right. Because if his side, they can call him.

00:14:28.460 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:29.260 Exactly. If his side knew before the close of evidence.

00:14:31.460 To me, it's interesting because yet again, here's a guy with a disturbing, disturbing criminal history.

00:14:37.680 Let me see. I've got to get my Daily Mail article here.

00:14:41.600 Here it is. OK, hold on.

00:14:44.540 He has. OK, keep in mind, the state has painted all of these so-called victims from Rosenbaum to Gage Grosskreutz to Huber to Jump Kick Man as heroes that they were heroes trying to take down an active shooter.

00:14:59.020 We already know about the disgusting criminal history of the other three.

00:15:02.380 Now we find out that Maurice was facing charges for an incident that took place months before the riot in Kenosha, March of 2020, between Friedland and Friedland and his partner, who the partner wound up telling officers that he punched her three times in the chest, that he threw her to the ground.

00:15:22.640 He kicked her in her lower right rib cage. He began punching the television. He yelled something to the effect of, you better run, bitch, I'll kill you.

00:15:31.320 His record spans 25 charges across more than 20 years in Kenosha, acts of criminal violence, destruction of property, possession of controlled substances, traffic offenses, family court violations, escape from custody.

00:15:41.480 He'd been incarcerated in May, released October 24. On and on it goes. Battery, disorderly conduct, possession. I could go on.

00:15:49.280 The point is, all along, the prosecution's been dying to portray the men who are on the wrong side of Kyle Rittenhouse that night as these sort of innocent victims who were trying to uphold the peace.

00:16:01.300 And when you take a close look at who these men were and how they lived their life, it is utterly unbelievable.

00:16:06.400 Well, I think that you have to look at the other side of the coin, though. Kyle Rittenhouse didn't know this stuff at the time that this happened. He wasn't aware of those facts.

00:16:16.820 Right.

00:16:17.060 And, you know, I think that's part of the reason that it wasn't allowed into evidence in the trial, you know, the criminal records of these people.

00:16:23.740 Of course. But then the DA got up and painted them as some sort of, you know, citizen warriors.

00:16:32.600 And he stood up in his closing and literally referred to them as heroes.

00:16:36.880 Actually, I'll play the soundbite. Here's here's the ADA Binger in his closing.

00:16:41.640 And every day we read about heroes that stop active shooters.

00:16:45.060 I mean, the fact that that didn't draw an objection and even he danced around this earlier in the trial before closing, too.

00:17:05.660 So and my own feeling is he opened the door and that prior bad, those prior bad acts should have come in.

00:17:13.660 I could. But could they in that instance, let's say the truth of the matter is and that's up to the jury.

00:17:19.620 You know, I think you have to look at it from the side of, well, if Kyle Rittenhouse, according to the state, they say he's he was an active shooter.

00:17:26.400 Or if he was indeed an active shooter, which we think of an active shooter as somebody who just runs into a mall or something and starts, you know, shooting indiscriminately, maybe they would have been heroes in that instance if they had stopped an active shooter.

00:17:41.300 So I don't know. But the heroes thing. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people are like, oh, maybe, maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

00:17:47.860 So. But I mean, it would have been a great debate to see, I have to say, because it would it would have been very easy for defense counsel to object to that.

00:17:55.320 And if Binger then wanted to say no, even though they had these criminal histories, they were heroes trying to stop the active shooter.

00:18:01.100 And then the response would have been great. Let me cross examine junk, jump kick, man.

00:18:05.040 And we'll talk all about how he abhors violence and doesn't want to see people get hurt, especially not the people like his girlfriend who he kicked repeatedly in the stomach.

00:18:12.820 All of his incarcerations in the past for violence. Let's go through it. Let's talk about it.

00:18:18.600 How about Gage Grosskreutz, who slapped his own grandmother and faced criminal charges for what he did?

00:18:23.440 How about Huber, who held a knife to his brother and said he was going to gut him like a pig?

00:18:29.800 I'm sure they abhor violence and were just horrified by Kyle Rittenhouse that night.

00:18:34.460 I mean, I could have I could have made that argument in my sleep as the defense attorney.

00:18:39.020 And I really think in this particular case, I would have been on my seat, the edge of it, waiting for the prosecutor to come anywhere near hero or a lionization of the men shot because it would have been fun to to dance through that open door.

00:18:52.120 I'll give you the last thought. Could I could I ask you a question?

00:18:55.460 So since Binger said that in his closing and I don't remember if that was his it was closing or rebuttal.

00:19:01.940 It was closing. If he said it in the closing, could the defense have talked about it in their closing if they had told the judge he opened the door?

00:19:10.700 So how how the evidence wasn't in? That's the problem.

00:19:14.600 That's why it was so egregious. What Binger did, it has been specifically ruled out of evidence by this judge saying it's too prejudicial to bring that in.

00:19:23.080 You don't bring in somebody's prior criminal record unless unless the prosecution puts him on the stand and tries to then paint them as an angel.

00:19:30.180 Then that's called opening the door. And so the judge didn't think that they actually went that far when they had the witnesses on the stand.

00:19:35.920 But then Binger gets up in his in his closing and goes further than he'd gone with the hero's remark and the comments you just heard.

00:19:42.520 And if I had been the defense counsel, I would have raised holy hell about it.

00:19:45.760 I would have stopped. I would ask for a sidebar.

00:19:48.200 Krause did the rebuttal. Sorry. So.

00:19:49.960 So what what was what was Mark Richards supposed to do on his closing?

00:19:53.220 How can he get up and say they're not heroes?

00:19:55.840 One's a convicted child molester who anally raped several boys between the ages of five and eleven.

00:20:00.460 One, you know, hurts grandmas, one hurts family members and threatens to gut them like pigs and so right and on and on.

00:20:06.360 No, it wasn't an evidence. You're not allowed to just offer your own testimonials as evidence.

00:20:11.020 That's he that would have been improper.

00:20:13.060 So Kyle Rittenhouse is ultimately the person who was put in a terrible position by the way this prosecutor behaved.

00:20:19.400 And it's just one of the many things I think we'll hear more about if this case doesn't go his way.

00:20:23.720 And Jeanette, thanks so much. We appreciate it.

00:20:26.100 Oh, well, thanks for having me.

00:20:27.180 All right. And we will continue to bring you any develops developments in Rittenhouse as they come.

00:20:32.900 In fact, we're going to continue our coverage because Glenn Greenwald is here and we're going to talk about what happened with MSNBC yesterday.

00:20:38.200 And I'm going to walk you through exactly what was so wrong with that MSNBC producer.

00:20:44.700 It was a freelance producer.

00:20:46.340 They tried to deny it initially.

00:20:48.080 Then they were caught and they had to admit it.

00:20:50.920 And NBC is trying to dodge this whole thing.

00:20:53.240 An update for you.

00:21:01.020 President Biden is president again.

00:21:02.600 He has retaken power from President Harris.

00:21:06.000 Wow.

00:21:06.700 Just in the past few minutes, he was he was in the hospital for a colonoscopy and his powers were temporarily ceded.

00:21:12.700 Only the fourth time that that's ever happened.

00:21:15.140 So he's back in power now.

00:21:17.220 Do we feel better?

00:21:18.380 We'll have more on that with Adam Carolla in just a bit.

00:21:20.200 But first joining me now is Glenn Greenwald.

00:21:23.040 He's a journalist, Substack editor and was co-founder of The Intercept.

00:21:27.440 Glenn, great to have you.

00:21:29.020 I'm dying to talk to you about MSNBC and their behavior yesterday.

00:21:33.780 So they did, as it turns out, have a freelance journalist following the jury in a car.

00:21:41.200 They originally they I think the reports were they tried to deny it.

00:21:44.540 Then they had to admit it because the police, when they pulled this guy over, he gave up the farm.

00:21:49.340 He was like, I'm a freelancer working for the NBC.

00:21:52.820 I was told by Irene back in the booking office in New York City to follow the jurors.

00:21:58.040 This is what I was doing.

00:21:59.120 That's why I ran the red light.

00:22:00.300 And all I could think was, you know, NBC was probably like, shut up, shut up, shut up.

00:22:05.860 Don't you have to admit everything.

00:22:07.440 But he did.

00:22:08.940 And this that part's kind of funny to me.

00:22:11.280 But what he was doing is no laughing matter.

00:22:14.440 Some people are trying to poo poo it like it's what bookers do.

00:22:17.640 They're aggressive.

00:22:18.460 No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:22:19.640 This this was much higher stakes in my view.

00:22:22.320 What do you make of it?

00:22:22.920 You're also a lawyer.

00:22:24.300 Obviously, the anonymity of any jury is critical, particularly.

00:22:29.020 So in a case that everyone knows has the very real and likely potential of creating social

00:22:37.100 unrest.

00:22:37.600 If a jury verdict is delivered that the public dislikes, we've seen over the last year how

00:22:43.900 disruptive and violent and serious such protests can be.

00:22:49.120 And there's no way to have a fair trial for someone accused of two counts of murder, another

00:22:53.940 account of attempted murder if the jurors feel that an acquittal will endanger their lives

00:23:00.380 or destroy their reputations.

00:23:01.900 And that can happen only if they're guaranteed anonymity.

00:23:06.020 And so to have a major news network, which has made no secret of the fact that it regards

00:23:12.880 acquittal as a grave injustice, as some kind of expression of racism.

00:23:17.000 They've said that explicitly following the jury ban to the point where they're so desperate

00:23:23.480 to keep up.

00:23:24.240 They're running red lights in order to stay close to them, obviously raises the question

00:23:29.660 of what is the motive.

00:23:30.860 And they're doing that now.

00:23:33.120 MSNBC, as you said, try to almost deny it.

00:23:36.280 And then I don't blame him.

00:23:38.180 The freelancer was not willing to go to prison to protect MSNBC, invoke the fact that he was

00:23:43.960 working as a journalist and what he was doing as he was doing that.

00:23:47.520 But then that leaves the question, which MSNBC to this very moment has an answer.

00:23:51.360 They've said we weren't trying to expose the identities of the jurors or take photographs

00:23:56.520 of them.

00:23:57.140 What were what was the motive?

00:23:58.520 Why were they following a van full of jurors whose anonymity is crucial?

00:24:04.540 That's exactly right.

00:24:05.600 So the MSNBC statement says last night, a freelancer trying to distance themselves.

00:24:12.000 He still works for you.

00:24:12.920 Oh, sorry, received a traffic citation.

00:24:16.220 While the traffic violation took place near the jury van, the freelancer never contacted

00:24:21.020 or intended to contact the jurors during deliberations, during deliberations.

00:24:26.560 This is what I said yesterday.

00:24:27.600 He's probably trying to follow them home to find out where they all lived so he could go

00:24:31.000 knock on their doors after the fact.

00:24:32.960 Not OK.

00:24:33.880 Sorry, bud.

00:24:34.620 You're not allowed to do that.

00:24:36.040 And never photographed or intended to photograph them.

00:24:39.900 But the sheriff's office says we believe that they were trying to photograph the jurors.

00:24:46.440 Now, it's the police, the police who pulled this guy over.

00:24:48.900 He ran a red light.

00:24:49.940 Like you said, he was determined to stay right behind that van.

00:24:52.640 And you tell me why the why the police concluded he was trying to photograph them.

00:24:57.340 OK, he denies it.

00:24:58.160 NBC denies it.

00:24:59.200 We'll see how it plays out.

00:25:00.200 But something tells me the police had a reason for writing that down.

00:25:03.340 They say we regret the incident and will fully cooperate with the authorities on any investigation.

00:25:08.540 I think there could be a few issues here.

00:25:10.880 I think this could be I don't think that he'll face charges, but I do think some of the the

00:25:16.060 concepts that are at play here are obstruction of justice, even potentially jury tampering.

00:25:22.320 Now, those normally require a knowing and willful interference with the jurors that you're where

00:25:27.460 you're trying to change their vote.

00:25:28.980 But I think if the defense needs to move for a mistrial, given all the errors in this

00:25:33.700 case, Glenn, this is just one more feather in in their quiver, one more arrow in their

00:25:39.760 quiver, because the jurors have had themselves videotaped, which the judge had to confiscate

00:25:45.000 and delete.

00:25:46.120 They've now been followed by an MSNBC reporter.

00:25:49.380 And just this morning, this is just breaking.

00:25:52.580 I want to give this to you from The New York Times.

00:25:55.080 Jurors have entered the courthouse for the fourth day.

00:25:57.600 They discuss the case for 23 hours as the jurors entered.

00:26:01.160 This is The New York Times reporter who apparently heard this.

00:26:03.760 Several of them thank sheriff's deputies for putting up a folding screen that blocked them

00:26:06.720 from the public, quote, it helps calm my nerves.

00:26:09.420 One woman said another woman on the jury could be heard saying, quote, the media coverage is

00:26:14.360 insane.

00:26:15.640 And a man said he woke up at three thirty a.m., couldn't fall back to sleep until five a.m.

00:26:19.000 They're under enormous pressure.

00:26:20.440 They know the media stalking them, literally stalking them.

00:26:23.840 And this was an egregious act by this news organization.

00:26:29.240 Right.

00:26:29.900 I mean, even if you want to give MSNBC every benefit of the doubt and given their conduct

00:26:37.040 as an organization, I don't think anyone rationally would do that.

00:26:40.000 But even if you decided to be as generous as possible, again, it still requires an answer

00:26:46.480 to the question that they've not yet answered, which is if the motive is what they deny it

00:26:52.000 was, isn't what what is is what they say it wasn't, which was to take photographs.

00:26:56.380 What was the valid journalistic motive for following the jury?

00:27:00.900 What I can't imagine what possible public interest there can be in having a journalist

00:27:07.840 that works for you follow the jury van except to uncover their identities either during the

00:27:12.580 deliberations or after.

00:27:14.700 And, you know, there are cases that have kind of a mild level of media scrutiny.

00:27:21.700 Megan, as you know, you can find jurors, you've heard nothing about the case, and that's what

00:27:26.980 you attempt to do in those kind of cases.

00:27:29.300 In this case, the Rittenhouse case from people who live in that area, obviously, there's literally

00:27:33.540 zero people who aren't at least to some degree aware of the significance of this case for the

00:27:41.700 broader public.

00:27:42.680 And they know that if their identities are revealed, it's going to follow them around for life.

00:27:47.360 And so even if you did have some motive less than the worst possible motive of intimidating

00:27:53.900 the jury or purposely making them know that they're being chased and stalked, it's an incredible

00:27:59.860 act of recklessness on the part of this gigantic news corporation, which is really NBC News, to

00:28:07.520 interfere in this process in such a harmful way.

00:28:12.920 And I think the judge has already said he thinks there's prosecutorial misconduct that

00:28:17.320 is sufficient to create a mistrial, maybe even one with prejudice, meaning they can't

00:28:21.500 try them again if the jury comes back with a guilty plea.

00:28:24.560 And as you said, I think this is just one more added to the mix.

00:28:27.460 And it should be.

00:28:28.860 I mean, just put yourself in the position of a defendant who is accused of murder, might

00:28:34.160 send you to prison for the next several decades, if not the rest of your life.

00:28:37.760 And then a news organization takes action that could intimidate the jurors to deliver

00:28:42.780 a guilty plea, even if they don't think you're guilty, just to protect themselves.

00:28:46.420 Of course, you're going to think that your fair trial has been compromised.

00:28:50.220 Yes.

00:28:50.580 I mean, look, this is this thing that The Times published really puts the point on it.

00:28:56.180 I'm so thankful the sheriff deputies put up a folding screen that blocks us from public

00:29:01.380 view.

00:29:01.980 It helps calm my nerves, says one of the female jurors.

00:29:05.040 Another one points out the media coverage is insane.

00:29:08.780 The other man says he can't sleep at night.

00:29:11.160 So they are afraid of the press.

00:29:13.980 They're afraid.

00:29:15.060 They're making that very clear.

00:29:16.760 And then you have this guy from MSNBC following them, running red lights to keep after them.

00:29:22.980 It's totally inappropriate.

00:29:24.140 And they think themselves above the law.

00:29:26.020 That's what NBC is really saying here.

00:29:28.380 Guess why they put it behind the screen, you dumb asses?

00:29:30.900 They don't want people like you to know who they are.

00:29:33.260 It's not up to you to say I overrule the sheriff, right?

00:29:36.420 And the judge whose courtroom this is.

00:29:38.300 It was an egregious thing to do.

00:29:40.660 And I would say to my fellow reporters trying to defend this, just stop.

00:29:44.520 There's no defense.

00:29:45.780 This was completely inappropriate.

00:29:47.360 And it might even have been criminal.

00:29:50.140 So it's in the interest of everyone, most particularly Kyle Rittenhouse and our justice

00:29:54.080 system, that these reporters be held to account.

00:29:56.220 One final note here on this, Glenn.

00:29:57.760 Dan McLaughlin at National Review had a really good piece out today and pointed out that there

00:30:03.620 was recently a case out of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, United States versus Johnson,

00:30:08.860 where they took the trial court judge to task because they did not feel he took the idea

00:30:17.560 seriously that the jury may have been possibly exposed to an attempt at photographing them.

00:30:24.720 Just not like the trial court was more focused on whether a picture had actually been taken.

00:30:29.380 And the Court of Appeals said, he said, by focusing the Court of Appeals, by focusing on

00:30:34.320 the question of whether photographs in fact had been taken and in failing to consider whether they

00:30:39.420 had in any way actually intimidated the jurors by displaying their cell phones, the district

00:30:44.320 court failed to consider the effect on the jurors of the perceived external contact.

00:30:48.600 Quote, a third party's threat or perceived attempt to take a photograph of a juror may

00:30:54.960 be no less intimidating to that juror than the actual taking of such a photograph.

00:31:01.640 So there's no defense of this behavior.

00:31:03.880 And I really do think if the defense doesn't make a big deal out of this in court, they're

00:31:07.260 missing yet another opportunity.

00:31:10.700 Yeah, I think they're going to.

00:31:11.820 I mean, obviously, it doesn't matter what the intention of MSNBC was, as that court opinion

00:31:18.160 said, and as common sense makes clear, what matters is the perceptions of the jurors.

00:31:22.880 If their anonymity, if they perceive that at risk, whether or not it is, that will have

00:31:27.220 the same effect on their ability to render a just verdict as if their anonymity has, in

00:31:31.800 fact, been compromised.

00:31:32.880 But, you know, I just want to add one point, which is, and this is what I was getting at

00:31:37.320 earlier, that case that you just cited from Dan McLaughlin, I don't know exactly what that

00:31:43.180 case is, but obviously it's nowhere near the level of political and media prominence that

00:31:49.420 the Rittenhouse case has.

00:31:50.960 It's probably just an ordinary criminal case.

00:31:53.080 And yet, even in an ordinary criminal case, it's vital that the jurors not feel threatened,

00:31:57.520 maybe by the family members of the defendant or the family members of, you know, the alleged

00:32:02.420 victims.

00:32:02.920 In any trial, it's crucial that the jurors feel safe.

00:32:06.560 But on, for one of this magnitude, where, and I think this is the key point, is that

00:32:12.200 the national media, led by MSNBC and CNN, have purposely injected into this trial a overarching

00:32:20.000 narrative of race, even though the defendant is white and accused of shooting three white

00:32:25.600 people.

00:32:26.620 Nonetheless, everything that has been talked about in this trial has been, as usual, described

00:32:32.900 through the prism of race, so that anyone who believes that Kyle Rittenhouse ought to

00:32:37.760 be acquitted, that the state's evidence is insufficient, that he acted in legitimate

00:32:41.380 self-defense, isn't doing that because they've made a genuine, honest evaluation of the evidence.

00:32:48.840 It's because they're an apologist for, if not a supporter of, white nationalism and white

00:32:54.080 supremacy, something, a label they put on Kyle Rittenhouse from the very start without there

00:32:58.320 being any evidence.

00:32:59.060 And they've already primed the country and the nation to believe that if there's an

00:33:03.580 acquittal, the only reason for it is because the judge was racist, the criminal justice system

00:33:08.920 is racist, and therefore the jurors are racist, which means that if their identity can be exposed,

00:33:14.600 they're going to have that tag applied to them by a community that has already demonstrated

00:33:19.300 its propensity to engage in violence when they believe it's necessary because of these kinds

00:33:24.500 of political themes, the same media that followed him is the one that has made this situation

00:33:29.900 so dangerous and volatile for them.

00:33:32.180 That's exactly right.

00:33:33.800 The juror, this isn't a case where the man on trial is part of the mob and you got to

00:33:38.540 worry if you convict him, the mob's going to come for you as a juror, that we've seen

00:33:42.740 those cases in the past.

00:33:44.100 The mob here is the media and its ability, its very effective ability to incite riots and the

00:33:52.380 mobs like we've seen that sort of began this whole thing, right?

00:33:55.460 The misreporting about Jacob Blake, this unarmed black man unfairly shot by police while he

00:34:00.480 was armed.

00:34:01.620 The media rushed to judgment.

00:34:02.760 The president rushed to judgment while then candidate Biden rushed to judgment.

00:34:06.680 And and that helped create the riots after Jacob Blake, which put Kyle Rittenhouse in that

00:34:11.480 in Kenosha that night and sort of this whole spiral began.

00:34:15.440 And the media has become no more responsible in the wake of any of that.

00:34:19.480 I saw you reporting the other day that your old outlet that you helped create and then

00:34:25.000 left in a blaze of glory that we celebrated together, The Intercept, they noted Kyle Rittenhouse's

00:34:31.160 race 20 times in one piece while saying nothing about the color of the men he shot.

00:34:38.720 P.S.

00:34:39.160 It was all white people, right?

00:34:40.840 The three guys he's charged with shooting, they were white people.

00:34:43.920 And then it's even worse than some other outlets.

00:34:46.100 There was some one paper overseas that described the men he shot as black.

00:34:50.720 Totally untrue.

00:34:52.180 The New York Times, Matt Taibbi was pointing this out.

00:34:54.880 They continue their standardized practice of underscoring Rittenhouse's race.

00:34:58.900 White teenager, white teenager, white teenager.

00:35:01.660 And then Andrew Sullivan had a great, great piece talking about how the media coverage in

00:35:06.100 this case has just been awful and really poisoned the jury pool and probably the actual jury.

00:35:10.440 Uh, he points out here's the New York Times article from August 26th, the morning after

00:35:14.200 the killings, quoting the New York Times.

00:35:16.960 The authorities are investigating whether the white teenager who was arrested was part of

00:35:20.480 a vigilante group.

00:35:21.940 His social media accounts appeared to show an intense affinity for guns, law enforcement

00:35:26.140 and President Trump.

00:35:29.160 Rittenhouse's race is specified.

00:35:31.420 The race of the men he killed and injured were not.

00:35:33.940 Of course, they were also, uh, white.

00:35:36.640 And then he says a day later, in another New York Times piece, um, they talk about the

00:35:41.680 video footage, quote, as Mr. Rittenhouse is running, he trips and falls to the ground.

00:35:45.800 He fires four shots as three people rush toward him.

00:35:48.480 No mention of the fact that they were actually beating him and attacking him.

00:35:51.540 One person appears to be hit in the chest and falls to the ground.

00:35:54.900 Another who is carrying a handgun, Grosskreutz, is hit in the arm and runs away.

00:36:01.280 Grosskreutz, he pointed his Glock in Kyle Rittenhouse's face and then got shot.

00:36:06.540 The other guy was beating him with a skateboard and then reaching for Kyle's gun.

00:36:10.860 But this is how the media does it, Glenn.

00:36:13.400 This is how they do it.

00:36:14.640 From the Covington boys to the Duke lacrosse defendants to, you know, the fake UVA rape

00:36:21.160 case.

00:36:21.780 They invent a narrative.

00:36:23.160 And if it if it makes somebody in their favorite groups true victims and somebody in their disfavored

00:36:28.380 groups villains, so much the better.

00:36:31.840 Yeah.

00:36:32.340 You know, look, I'm at the point.

00:36:33.680 Um, obviously, there's a lot of controversy over President Trump's invocation of this

00:36:39.160 very extremist slogan that the press is the enemy of the people.

00:36:42.960 I understand why people were uncomfortable by that.

00:36:46.200 That can be a dangerous and provocative statement.

00:36:48.380 It has some kind of bad historical overtones.

00:36:51.100 But leaving that aside, I actually am at the point where I genuinely believe that the dominant

00:36:58.740 sector of the corporate media is a very toxic influence in our society, because I'm completely

00:37:04.720 sympathetic to the fact that any human institution is going to make mistakes, maybe even make mistakes

00:37:10.620 with some degree of frequency.

00:37:11.940 That's to be expected, especially when you're reporting on complex issues.

00:37:15.180 These are not mistakes any longer.

00:37:17.860 These this is a transformation of what they perceive to be their role in society from trying

00:37:23.540 and sometimes failing to do their best to convey the facts as they understand and then correct

00:37:27.660 them when they're wrong into instruments and weapons in service of a political agenda based

00:37:34.660 primarily on the premise that President Trump and his movement pose such a fascistic and existential

00:37:41.400 threat to American democracy, that anything they do in the name of stopping it is justifiable

00:37:47.340 and that any association with President Trump or his movement means that you're a white

00:37:52.480 nationalist.

00:37:53.060 So if you say, Megan, to this day, Kyle Rittenhouse immediately got labeled as a white supremacist,

00:37:58.660 even though there was no evidence for it, they'll say, no, there was evidence.

00:38:02.600 And you know what they'll cite?

00:38:04.020 Everything you just cited.

00:38:05.480 He likes guns.

00:38:06.340 He seems to have an affinity for the police and he said favorable things about Donald Trump

00:38:12.460 in their minds that does make him a white supremacist.

00:38:15.400 And the amount of deceit that gets disseminated, you mentioned an overseas paper.

00:38:20.440 You probably saw this from my feed.

00:38:22.480 What actually happened was in Brazil, the largest newspaper in Brazil is Folio of Sao Paulo.

00:38:27.480 There I've worked with them.

00:38:28.720 I know a lot of journalists who work inside of them.

00:38:31.180 I partnered with them.

00:38:32.260 They're a good, decent, solid, responsible newspaper.

00:38:34.460 And they published an article, an entire article about the Rittenhouse case last week,

00:38:41.340 which they obviously got from, they read the New York Times, they watch CNN.

00:38:44.900 And they just said over and over, he shot two black men, shot and killed two black men.

00:38:49.120 That's what they thought.

00:38:49.980 Where do you think they got that from?

00:38:51.320 They got that from the American media.

00:38:53.280 Like the Intercept is so race obsessed.

00:38:55.660 I bet you can't find one instance where they don't identify the race of the victim when the

00:39:00.940 victim in a police shooting or a crime is black.

00:39:03.860 Everything will be killed a black man.

00:39:05.940 The black man died.

00:39:06.920 This person was Hispanic.

00:39:08.080 He died.

00:39:08.560 This Asian person died.

00:39:09.580 This gay person died.

00:39:10.900 They're obsessed with the demographics of the race of the victim.

00:39:14.580 But in this case, even though they used the word white 20 times, as you said, either

00:39:18.540 described Rittenhouse or his ideology as white supremacist, they purposely omitted telling

00:39:24.320 their readers the fact that the people that he shot were all white.

00:39:27.580 Because how can you convince people that Rittenhouse was a white supremacist engaged in white supremacist

00:39:32.160 domestic terrorism when all of the people that he shot, A, attacked him first, but also

00:39:37.740 B, were all white.

00:39:39.300 That's a really weird thing to do.

00:39:40.660 If you're a white supremacist, go and shoot into a crowd of people and purposely kill only

00:39:44.900 white people when there are a bunch of black people standing around.

00:39:47.480 So the media, instead of grappling with those facts, you would if you're engaged in a journalistic

00:39:52.420 function, instead purposely conceals them in place of the narrative they want to promote.

00:39:57.960 It's so true.

00:39:59.200 It's so true.

00:40:00.300 And even the narrative that, you know, these guys were just these peaceful BLM protesters

00:40:05.860 is a bunch of bunk, too.

00:40:08.160 These weren't these people probably didn't care at all about Black Lives Matter.

00:40:11.200 They were out there because they have a history of being career criminals and they wanted to

00:40:15.660 cause trouble.

00:40:16.480 That's obvious if you look at the length of their rap sheets.

00:40:18.960 So I have no sympathy for them putting themselves in a dangerous situation.

00:40:22.920 I'm sorry it wound up as badly as it did.

00:40:25.320 But this is one of the risks you assume when you go to a riot that in which you set things

00:40:30.820 on fire, you disobey police and you welcome lawlessness into your life.

00:40:35.960 Bad things follow.

00:40:37.380 You know, I mean, they're the ones who had the who had the motives that they were in the

00:40:40.420 wrong place that night.

00:40:41.540 As far as I can tell, Kyle Rittenhouse, while mistaken, in my view, for showing up there,

00:40:45.680 did not set out to cause trouble.

00:40:47.460 And yet he is painted as a vigilante villain in every single article you can find.

00:40:54.040 I mean, if it's not by, you know, established right wing media, you will see him painted

00:40:58.700 in the way you just described.

00:41:00.420 All right, stand by because we're going to squeeze in a break and we're going to pick

00:41:02.620 it up with Glenn right after this.

00:41:04.080 There's plenty to go over.

00:41:05.380 And folks, remember, you can find The Megyn Kelly Show live on Sirius XM Triumph channel

00:41:08.620 111 every weekday at noon east and the full video show and clips by subscribing to our

00:41:14.000 YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Megyn Kelly.

00:41:16.220 If you prefer an audio podcast, you can subscribe and download for free on Apple, Spotify, Pandora,

00:41:21.620 Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:41:24.080 And there you will find our full archives, including more than 200 shows, including the

00:41:28.920 very first time Glenn Greenwald was on, which was episode number one.

00:41:35.060 Just hearing him.

00:41:35.720 Can't you see why?

00:41:36.560 The guy's brilliant and he's totally fair and love talking to him.

00:41:40.100 Back with me now, Glenn Greenwald.

00:41:48.740 He's a journalist, a Substack editor and co-founder of The Intercept.

00:41:52.700 We played the soundbite a couple of days ago, and it is indicative of MSNBC's bias and so

00:41:59.020 on.

00:41:59.240 But I have to say, Glenn, I I'm really troubled by the rhetoric coming out of that news organization

00:42:04.400 in quotes.

00:42:05.440 I'm almost going to I'm like quotes now and people like Joy Reid.

00:42:09.240 And I saw you tweet about this and I I'd love to discuss it with you, but just to tee it

00:42:13.200 up for the audience.

00:42:14.340 This is what she said on TikTok is is just an example of the kind of stuff she says every

00:42:18.300 night on her show.

00:42:19.080 I could play you a long soundbite where she says all this same stuff.

00:42:22.280 And it occurs to me that this person is a raging racist and has been given a total pass

00:42:28.640 on it, I guess, because her her racism is against white people.

00:42:32.620 Here's Joy Reid on her TikTok.

00:42:34.720 It's Kyle Rittenhouse trial.

00:42:37.620 It reminded a lot of people of something, something I can't remember what it was.

00:42:42.240 Oh, the Brett Kavanaugh hearings in which Brett Kavanaugh, who had been accused by a high

00:42:48.480 school friend of committing sexual abuse of her, cried his way through the hearings to

00:42:56.380 make him a permanent member and associate justice of the United States Supreme Court.

00:43:02.720 And his tears turned out to be more powerful than the tears of Christine Blasey Ford, which

00:43:09.100 were the tears of an alleged victim.

00:43:11.240 But in America, there's a thing about both white vigilantism and white tears, particularly

00:43:19.680 male white tears, really white tears in general, because that's what carrots are, right?

00:43:26.320 They carrot out and then as soon as they get caught, it's like green waterworks.

00:43:31.580 White men can get away with that too.

00:43:33.520 And it has the same effect.

00:43:34.900 But even as the right tries to politicize the idea that masculinity is being robbed from

00:43:41.580 American men by multiculturalism and wokeism, they still want to be able to have their tears.

00:43:48.480 I'm sorry, but that is just so disgusting.

00:43:50.900 She has no heart.

00:43:53.360 She's just full of rage.

00:43:55.300 Your thoughts?

00:43:57.300 Well, I mean, first of all, it's interesting.

00:43:59.080 My personal history with Joy Reid goes back a lot longer than most people's before anyone

00:44:04.860 really knew who she was when she was a columnist at the Miami Herald.

00:44:08.820 She was actually one of the leading people demanding that the FBI and Department of Justice

00:44:13.840 under Obama prosecute and arrest me for the reporting that I was doing on the Edward Snowden

00:44:19.980 case because she used to be a campaign aide for President Obama in 2008.

00:44:24.580 She worked for his campaign and she never really grew out of that role.

00:44:27.820 That's still what she is.

00:44:29.700 And it was all it was never, you know, kind of like a academic argument about whether it was

00:44:34.820 like it was vicious.

00:44:36.140 You know, it was like he belongs rotting in a prison alongside Edward Snowden.

00:44:39.620 And there was also a controversy where Chelsea Manning, who people may not remember when she

00:44:49.060 was first arrested as WikiLeaks source, was put into this like extremely harsh prison condition,

00:44:54.780 like 23 and a half hours a day of solitary confinement.

00:44:57.820 It was designed to break her down.

00:44:59.700 I was actually the one who broke the story.

00:45:01.780 And Joy Reid was the one who was coming out and saying like, oh, boo hoo.

00:45:05.760 Chelsea Manning wants a little blankie.

00:45:08.000 You know, like obviously Chelsea Manning is a controversial figure.

00:45:10.720 Lots of people think she should be in jail.

00:45:11.960 But the lack like the cruelty and the lack of empathy was evident to me all the way back

00:45:17.380 then.

00:45:17.920 And then obviously she had, you know, the next six or seven years of writing extremely bigoted

00:45:22.860 blog posts, you know, just I mean, outright hatred for any gay man, lesbian, trans person,

00:45:29.340 and actually would attack Chelsea Manning, claiming that it was her, you know, sickness about being a

00:45:35.200 trans person that caused her to leak those documents.

00:45:37.180 So I've known this about Joy Reid forever, since way before MSNBC decided to elevate her.

00:45:43.860 And that kind of clip that you just played, which is, as you said, extremely exemplary,

00:45:49.940 extremely illustrative of the sort of discourse in which she frequently engages.

00:45:54.020 Yeah.

00:45:54.180 Is the kind of stuff that you would hear, like at a KKK rally in the 1950s about talking about

00:46:00.520 a group of people with complete contempt based on nothing other than their skin color, skin

00:46:07.300 color.

00:46:07.640 It's amazing that they allow it to happen.

00:46:10.480 If something's deeply wrong with our with our media these days, it's disgusting.

00:46:15.440 And that's exactly the lovely note on which we'll pick it up after this quick break.

00:46:19.120 We're with Glenn.

00:46:19.780 Don't go away.

00:46:24.180 We're getting reports out of Kenosha.

00:46:28.400 Something's happening there.

00:46:29.540 We don't know what we don't want to get ahead of our skis.

00:46:32.580 But we are being told that the families of those who were shot by Kyle Rittenhouse in

00:46:38.860 this case, in which he asserts he did that in self-defense, are being called to the courthouse.

00:46:45.420 This is according to the New York Times.

00:46:47.360 New York Times is reporting.

00:46:48.520 Go ahead.

00:46:49.060 Listen to my producers.

00:46:49.860 Go ahead, Steve.

00:46:51.220 Times is reporting that there is a verdict.

00:46:52.840 New York Times is reporting that there is a verdict in the Kyle Rittenhouse case after

00:46:58.920 essentially one business week of deliberation.

00:47:02.600 It's been, what, over 20 plus hours.

00:47:05.520 And Glenn Greenwald is still here with us.

00:47:08.000 I mean, this is if this is true and they're going to read a verdict today.

00:47:12.700 We don't know whether it's I mean, it could be we were we were not able to reach a verdict.

00:47:19.200 It doesn't have to be guilty or not guilty at this point.

00:47:21.880 They may just be calling folks in to let them know that they were unable to.

00:47:26.840 Yeah.

00:47:27.040 I mean, I'm sure you've had the same experience.

00:47:29.180 There's nothing more torturous than trying to read the tea leaves of jury behavior.

00:47:33.280 Um, I've been trying to tell friends of mine who've never been involved in the jury system

00:47:38.000 that, you know, I mean, I used to litigate civil trials and you, you, you finish a case

00:47:43.260 or so much on the line and then all you can do is wait.

00:47:45.440 It's one of the most torturous things imaginable.

00:47:47.360 Imagine if there were actually your life on the line.

00:47:49.840 I'm seeing on social media that there does seem to be a verdict.

00:47:53.220 My guess is, Megan, that if they were going to come and say we can't reach a verdict, that

00:47:58.380 there would have been a back and forth first with the judge where they say, look, your

00:48:02.300 honor, we can't reach a verdict.

00:48:03.520 And he would have encouraged them to go back and try my I doubt that their first indication

00:48:09.480 of we can't reach a verdict is a mistrial.

00:48:12.900 Um, and Glenn, to your point, the New York Times language is they are reporting the jury

00:48:19.060 has, quote, reached a decision so that that doesn't suggest mistrial.

00:48:23.720 That suggests it doesn't suggest like we need to speak with the judge like a hung jury.

00:48:27.100 Like, yeah, like a hung jury, like we can't reach a verdict.

00:48:29.360 So it seems like my guess is based on what you've read, what I'm seeing online as you

00:48:34.440 read it, that there's an actual verdict on all the counts.

00:48:38.220 The I've had this feeling so many times before as a reporter and and, you know, for 10 years

00:48:43.280 of my life as an actual lawyer, there's nothing like it.

00:48:46.300 It's pins and needles.

00:48:47.140 It's truly like it's it's a physical reaction, right?

00:48:51.220 That pit in your stomach.

00:48:52.320 And you can only imagine what Kyle Rittenhouse is feeling.

00:48:56.160 I mean, this he's so young, right?

00:48:58.760 He's 18.

00:49:00.300 This is this is a life or death moment for him.

00:49:03.380 He actually could go to prison for the rest of his life, depending on what this jury has

00:49:08.160 decided.

00:49:08.980 And I'm sure the jurors are feeling tons of angst as well.

00:49:13.200 It's just there's no describing what that courtroom is likely to feel like.

00:49:17.360 And the families, you know, I mean, that's one of the thing, you know, you played that

00:49:20.480 clip about the the white tears from Dr.

00:49:22.400 I read, I mean, just, you know, if you put yourself in Kyle Rittenhouse's position, regardless

00:49:27.120 of what you think of the verdict, he's at the time 17.

00:49:31.300 He shot three people and killed two of them, even if it was justifiable, as I've come to

00:49:36.500 believe it was.

00:49:37.440 It's an incredibly traumatic thing for anybody, let alone a 17 year old.

00:49:41.340 And then to go through a year and a half of intense media attacks and then be put on trial

00:49:46.440 that can, of course, you're going to cry.

00:49:48.440 What like only a sociopath wouldn't.

00:49:51.380 Right.

00:49:51.640 And there's been mockery of what his mother looks like.

00:49:54.120 And so, I mean, of course, it's an incredibly traumatizing and difficult time for everyone

00:49:59.060 involved in that case, no matter your views, if you're just a decent human being.

00:50:03.460 Being told that Kyle Rittenhouse has arrived in the courthouse.

00:50:07.140 I'm sure he's with his counsel and I'm sure his mother's not far behind him.

00:50:12.140 The judge will assemble all the parties into the courthouse.

00:50:15.860 And once everyone, defense counsel, the prosecutors and the family members of those killed are present,

00:50:21.920 he'll bring in the jury.

00:50:23.880 The jury will read its verdict.

00:50:25.600 And then whichever side loses is most likely to ask to pull the jury members one by one to

00:50:31.420 ask them, is this your verdict?

00:50:33.180 So say you all and so on.

00:50:34.260 And then they have to stand up and say, yes, it is.

00:50:35.540 Yes, it is.

00:50:35.920 Yes, it is.

00:50:36.460 And on and on we go.

00:50:38.320 And then the media frenzy will begin.

00:50:39.920 And the thing that we have to worry about, Glenn, if it's if it's anything other than

00:50:44.540 guilty, is will there be potential riots?

00:50:48.640 Right.

00:50:48.880 Will if this kid is found not guilty or only found guilty of lesser included charges?

00:50:54.900 I mean, there is a real risk of rioting, more rioting, more loss of life, destruction

00:50:59.600 of property and so on.

00:51:00.460 That's why the governor's already called in 500 National Guardsmen.

00:51:03.920 What are your thoughts on the likelihood?

00:51:05.180 I would be shocked if there wasn't substantial social unrest in the event of acquittal, not

00:51:12.280 only in Kenosha, where they might have actually sportified the area more than anywhere else.

00:51:18.060 But across the country, I think it's possible as well.

00:51:21.380 There are a lot of people who feel extremely strongly on the other side as well, that if

00:51:24.740 he's convicted of first degree intentional murder or anything like that, there may be

00:51:30.000 some serious protests in anger on the other side as well.

00:51:34.880 But clearly, the pattern of the last 18 months has been that the people who go out and protest

00:51:39.660 and riot and do violence when they don't get what they like are the people who would be

00:51:43.340 inclined to be angry about an acquittal and not a conviction.

00:51:46.440 You know, it would be very nice if the media would allow the publication of things like the

00:51:51.800 piece by Nellie Bowles.

00:51:52.940 Nellie works for The New York Times.

00:51:54.440 And I think she's still where she might have left.

00:51:56.940 No, she left.

00:51:58.560 Sorry, she left.

00:51:59.700 Officially left.

00:52:00.600 And she's engaged to Barry Weiss.

00:52:03.420 And she had a piece on Barry Substack today or yesterday talking about how she had done

00:52:08.700 a long piece for The Times on what these riots actually do in a town like Kenosha.

00:52:14.620 And Kenosha was the town she studied and said, you know what?

00:52:17.800 Let me tell you what they do.

00:52:19.080 They hurt the black and brown communities.

00:52:20.480 It's not some it's not all big box, white owned, you know, Walmarts.

00:52:25.660 It's mom and pop shops owned by people of color that have a really tough time rebuilding

00:52:30.480 that the community may have a really sentimental attachment to.

00:52:34.200 You know, that storefront where you like, you know, the guy who you get your deli coffee

00:52:37.560 from or what have you.

00:52:39.760 And The Times buried it that they killed her piece.

00:52:42.440 They had no interest in it before the election.

00:52:45.540 And Joe Biden became president.

00:52:46.940 And eventually they ran Nellie's piece.

00:52:48.660 But the people itching to go out on the streets and, you know, cause havoc in the event this

00:52:53.340 isn't a verdict they like, they weren't allowed to read pieces like that for far too long.

00:52:59.000 You know, there was a there was a taboo in in last summer about doing reporting on the

00:53:05.160 devastation that was left in the wake of these protests.

00:53:09.120 One of the reasons why the independent journalist Michael Tracy became a kind of popular figure

00:53:15.020 and built up this big audience is because he was the only one pretty much he like rented

00:53:20.040 a, you know, kind of like a crappy car and he drove around the country and he interviewed

00:53:24.820 immigrant store owners whose stores were burned down, you know, like second generation

00:53:28.580 immigrants who built up like a decent business or as you say, like minority owned business

00:53:33.960 owners who were furious that oftentimes it was like white Antifa, you know, anarchists

00:53:40.280 who had no connection to the cause of police brutality or even BLM activists.

00:53:45.060 And as you say, the, you know, media tried to depict it as, oh, they're just looting Nikes

00:53:49.720 and Walmarts when in reality, the people who bore the brunt of that, that those protests

00:53:55.240 were the people who are most marginalized.

00:53:56.900 And yet it was almost like a prohibition on the part of newsrooms to go and do that reporting

00:54:01.780 is Nellie's piece said she tried to do it and they only published it after the election

00:54:06.400 was over.

00:54:07.900 I want to remind our audience that there is a verdict in the Kyle Rittenhouse case.

00:54:13.020 We are just awaiting its announcement by the court.

00:54:16.260 We can see the judge is in the courtroom.

00:54:18.460 Kyle Rittenhouse is in the courtroom.

00:54:19.920 He, he, he looks nervous.

00:54:22.680 I mean, of course he is.

00:54:23.640 They all are nervous.

00:54:24.500 I'd venture to say even the judge who's been on the bench longer than any other judge in

00:54:28.060 the circuit courts in Wisconsin feel somewhat nervous right now.

00:54:32.480 It's just human nature.

00:54:33.760 The stakes are so large.

00:54:34.940 No one wants to get it wrong.

00:54:37.380 Even if you are rooting for one side or the other that, you know, there's a lot of there,

00:54:42.440 there's a lot involved here, right?

00:54:43.740 There's a lot of humanity.

00:54:45.720 What my producers trying to tell me something, what do we, are they reading it?

00:54:49.560 Okay.

00:54:50.120 So they can read it at any moment.

00:54:51.420 We had originally been told that everybody would be given an hour notice when the jury had

00:54:54.720 a verdict.

00:54:55.760 Maybe that's happened.

00:54:56.500 Maybe it hasn't.

00:54:57.060 Maybe the, the media just was late to report it that they, that they had the notice, but

00:55:01.720 we expect a verdict at any, at any minute.

00:55:04.020 It could happen any second now.

00:55:06.200 So what's going, what's going to happen, Glenn, is if this case goes against Kyle Rittenhouse,

00:55:12.800 what do you expect from defense counsel?

00:55:14.440 Immediate motions for, to renew their, their push for a mistrial with prejudice.

00:55:19.000 And I think in this instance, they have a shot.

00:55:22.080 The motions I'm hearing, I'm seeing the judge on the bench, probably they're waiting for

00:55:28.740 the jury.

00:55:29.660 But yes, I mean, the judge has actually said that he believes at least a couple of those

00:55:33.300 motions for a mistrial, including prosecutorial misconduct over having questioned Kyle Rittenhouse

00:55:38.140 about his right to remain silent and implying there was something nefarious about it, which

00:55:42.740 everyone who practices law knows you can't do.

00:55:45.300 He has the constitutional right, infuriated the judge.

00:55:48.240 There's also the motion for mistrial on the grounds that the prosecution seems to have

00:55:52.100 withheld higher quality video that could have helped exonerate him.

00:55:56.100 So that seems to be a pending mistrial motion that the judge has indicated he believes there's

00:56:01.580 merit to.

00:56:02.200 And he's kind of said, let's see what the jury does and then I'll decide on these motions.

00:56:06.060 So I think there's a good chance, even if there is a guilty verdict, that the judge

00:56:09.280 is going to either overturn it on the grounds of evidence, which the judge does have the

00:56:13.160 right to do, or, or based on the mistrial of the prosecutorial misconduct.

00:56:21.180 Yeah, I think there's a good, there's a, there's a very good chance that this judge, um, could

00:56:26.720 overturn any verdict that he doesn't like.

00:56:28.940 I mean, that's, that is within his purview.

00:56:30.500 It's within his power.

00:56:31.700 Judges sometimes do it.

00:56:32.840 They always prefer to defer to the jury, but the way the judge has talked about some of

00:56:36.340 the prosecutor's behavior, um, it's just, it's, it's tough to know, uh, whether it seems

00:56:43.340 to me he's upset with the prosecution and the way that they've handled it.

00:56:47.060 Um, I want to say that the jury is outside of the courtroom.

00:56:49.760 We're told at this moment, that's what we believe getting ready to come in.

00:56:53.440 Um, so we should, uh, stand by.

00:56:55.660 Say, say it again, Deb, they're standing.

00:56:57.660 Okay.

00:56:57.860 They're standing.

00:56:58.340 That must mean the jury's on its way in.

00:57:00.280 Um, Kyle Rittenhouse is on his feet.

00:57:02.400 So are his lawyers.

00:57:03.140 So is everyone in the courthouse.

00:57:04.500 The judge sits because he never stands.

00:57:06.660 He doesn't have to stand for the jury.

00:57:08.300 Um, they're filing in and it shouldn't take long.

00:57:12.280 They're going to read it in moments.

00:57:14.040 I want to tell you that we have Andrew Branca as well, standing by.

00:57:16.620 Um, he's an attorney who's been covering this from start to finish.

00:57:21.140 He's been writing at legal insurrection and, uh, we'll have his reaction.

00:57:24.880 Glenn, thank you.

00:57:25.900 I want to say thank you very much for coming on and helping us out today.

00:57:28.740 And I'm going to switch gears and say hello to Andrew Branca as we continue to await this.

00:57:33.060 Thanks, Megan.

00:57:33.580 Yes.

00:57:33.920 All the best.

00:57:34.580 Hey there.

00:57:35.340 Andrew, hi.

00:57:36.020 Thank you.

00:57:37.240 My pleasure.

00:57:38.020 Thanks for having me here.

00:57:38.960 Yeah, so we're both watching this together and, uh, trying to get, trying to hear what

00:57:44.660 the jury is saying.

00:57:45.660 We apologize to our audience.

00:57:46.700 This is not something that we can air to you live.

00:57:49.860 Uh, otherwise we would be, uh, but we're going to try to, we're going to bring it to

00:57:55.000 you just as soon as we know.

00:57:55.960 And can you, what are we hearing?

00:57:57.500 I'm going to ask my producers.

00:57:58.600 Let's put the audio up and listen together.

00:58:00.200 All right, members of the jury, have you, uh, elected a four-person?

00:58:15.400 Would you, uh, uh, uh, give your adjourn number, please?

00:58:20.540 Fifty-four.

00:58:21.280 Fifty-four.

00:58:21.940 And, uh, has the jury reached a verdict as to each count of the information?

00:58:25.540 Yes, we have, Your Honor.

00:58:26.680 One verdict and one verdict only?

00:58:28.380 Yes.

00:58:28.660 Would you hand all of the paperwork to the bailiff, please?

00:58:31.400 This is the ones that we did in bailiff.

00:58:32.960 Yeah, everything.

00:58:34.120 Okay.

00:58:34.320 Yeah, thanks.

00:58:41.760 May I say that too, please, uh, Ms. DeSantis?

00:58:43.620 Oh, I am sorry.

00:58:44.080 Chairman, thank you.

00:58:58.660 The defendant will rise, face the jury, and hearken to its verdicts.

00:59:19.440 State of Wisconsin v. Kyle Rittenhouse, as to the first count of the information, Joseph

00:59:27.160 Rosenbaum, we, the jury, find the defendant, Kyle H. Rittenhouse, not guilty.

00:59:32.960 As to the second count of the information, Richard McGinnis, we, the jury, find the defendant,

00:59:38.400 Kyle H. Rittenhouse, not guilty.

00:59:40.400 As to the third count of the information, unknown male, we, the jury, find the defendant, Kyle H. Rittenhouse, not guilty.

00:59:49.660 As to the fourth count of the information, Anthony Huber, we, the jury, find the defendant, Kyle H. Rittenhouse, not guilty.

00:59:56.880 As to the fifth count of the information, Gage Grosskreutz, we, the jury, find the defendant, Kyle H. Rittenhouse, not guilty.

01:00:08.440 Wow.

01:00:09.120 Members of the jury, are these your unanimous verdicts?

01:00:12.580 Is there anyone who does not agree with the verdicts as read?

01:00:16.420 All right.

01:00:17.000 Would you wish the jury pulled?

01:00:18.960 Yeah.

01:00:19.280 Okay.

01:00:21.020 Okay, folks, your job is done, and we started just about three weeks ago.

01:00:28.520 Wow.

01:00:29.040 Okay.

01:00:29.640 The judge now is going to dismiss the jury.

01:00:32.620 Stunning, stunning, Andrew.

01:00:34.220 After all this time, the jury, I say, and I think you agree, they got it right.

01:00:39.280 The only just outcome, the only outcome consistent with the evidence in the law in this case,

01:00:43.980 it was never a close call if we got a fair and impartial jury who applied the law as instructed to the actual evidence in this case.

01:00:52.000 This was a, the prosecution alone was a horrific miscarriage of justice.

01:00:56.660 Oh, Andrew, just to interrupt you.

01:00:57.480 To put this poor kid through this process when they had nothing.

01:00:59.100 Forgive me for interrupting you.

01:01:02.240 Kyle Rittenhouse just fell to his knees in tears.

01:01:06.000 He's on his knees.

01:01:07.340 His lawyer's talking to him.

01:01:08.620 He's shaking.

01:01:10.780 It's upsetting to watch.

01:01:12.900 I, you know, it's like, I, I feel like the media is just so awful, Andrew.

01:01:17.460 They've been so disgusting from the beginning.

01:01:20.020 And you can feel what this boy is feeling.

01:01:22.960 This young man, his mother's in tears behind him.

01:01:25.720 We forget people's humanity in the press.

01:01:28.280 We just want to kill them.

01:01:30.300 We want to go for the jugular.

01:01:31.520 We want everyone to pay.

01:01:32.600 And in this case, we wanted him to pay because he was a Trump supporter and he was a Second Amendment supporter.

01:01:37.160 And he wasn't on the side of the BLM rioters.

01:01:39.520 And they and the media and the president and the governor put this kid through hell, through hell.

01:01:45.200 And this is the only just verdict.

01:01:46.900 Back to you.

01:01:47.520 They had nothing.

01:01:48.900 They had nothing close to a conviction on this case.

01:01:51.880 And they threatened this kid with life in prison, an 18 year old kid with life in prison, no possibility of early release.

01:01:58.540 And they had no evidence that was close to disproving self-defense.

01:02:03.320 It's despicable.

01:02:04.480 And don't even I mean, and the machinations that the prosecution went through to try to build a case out of nothing to put this kid in jail for the rest of his life.

01:02:13.420 It's contemptible.

01:02:14.320 So that's the thing people need to remember.

01:02:16.540 This is not a case that was close.

01:02:18.280 We all started to wonder, right, because they took so long.

01:02:20.760 The jurors took so long.

01:02:21.980 But this was not a close case.

01:02:23.280 This is a case that never should have been brought.

01:02:25.100 The videotapes showed the story.

01:02:27.520 You you just had to believe your own eyes and ears and not the liars in the press and the politicians trying to get elected off of racial division.

01:02:37.880 Right. Because this was based on his presence there that night was was based on on the shooting of Jacob Blake, who was a black man by a white cop, which was ruled legally justified, including by this sitting president's DOJ.

01:02:50.800 But it was all there, black and white.

01:02:52.560 The charges never should have been brought.

01:02:53.660 This wasn't a close case.

01:02:56.180 No, no, not even close.

01:02:57.600 There was literally zero evidence inconsistent with self-defense in this case.

01:03:01.180 The state's own witnesses testimony was consistent with lawful self-defense for every one of these criminal counts.

01:03:10.020 No one's going to do any soul searching that the media won't stop.

01:03:14.420 They're probably trying to hunt down the jurors again right now, although it's different once the once the trial's over than during the course of the trial.

01:03:22.040 And the judge has to worry.

01:03:24.740 Kyle Rittenhouse still has to worry for his safety because because of all the irresponsible coverage.

01:03:29.900 They've all received serious death threats.

01:03:34.120 Well, it doesn't surprise me.

01:03:35.500 I mean, you know, the left is violent, right?

01:03:38.000 The whole premise of these events was because they were burning down the city of Kenosha over the false narrative around Jacob Blake in the first place.

01:03:47.340 Now, now I guess we see what they do.

01:03:49.460 I mean, there's 500 National Guard standing outside the town, I suppose.

01:03:52.800 Are they going to burn Kenosha down again because they're angry about this just verdict?

01:03:57.100 But I fear for the town of Kenosha.

01:04:00.760 And it's not a big town, folks.

01:04:02.160 It's a small town in America.

01:04:04.700 And I fear for this judge and for Kyle and the defense attorneys.

01:04:11.040 You know, the judge and the defense attorneys were literally just doing their jobs.

01:04:14.220 This is how our system works.

01:04:15.660 And the system is stacked against a defendant, white or black.

01:04:19.140 Folks, the system stacked against the defendant.

01:04:20.820 You go into that courthouse with the weight of the state coming down against you.

01:04:25.200 The prosecutor comes in there with an air of authority that's very hard to pierce.

01:04:30.080 And that's why due process is so important and adherence to the rules is so important.

01:04:34.220 And the prosecutors have a higher calling and expectation to pursue justice and not just a conviction because they have so much power.

01:04:43.220 And so for them to now be demonized, I mean, there was a there was a piece.

01:04:48.960 Gosh, I think it was Charles Blow writing in The New York Times saying something like this judge made rulings as though Kyle Rittenhouse was his grandson that he had to look at.

01:04:57.920 Nonsense.

01:04:58.980 Nonsense.

01:04:59.500 There was prosecutorial misconduct for which they were rightly called out.

01:05:02.820 Absolutely.

01:05:04.980 And by the way, this judge did not make particularly favorable rulings for this defendant.

01:05:08.440 There were all those motions for mistrials with prejudice should have been granted on the merits.

01:05:13.260 The judge put off making those decisions in the hope that there would be an acquittal and he wouldn't have to make the call.

01:05:19.780 And it looks like he got his wish.

01:05:21.760 Thank God it's he got we got the acquittals and he got his wish.

01:05:25.160 But this was not a judge that was eager to make decisions in favor of this defendant.

01:05:28.980 And he's notoriously especially protective of defendants rights.

01:05:34.840 Long before he ever heard the name Kyle Rittenhouse, he has a reputation for bending over backwards to protect the defendants who are in his courtroom as it should be.

01:05:44.920 What what do you want to judge?

01:05:46.440 I mean, even people who are more prosecution oriented in general, like I am.

01:05:49.940 Do I want to judge who's more prosecution oriented?

01:05:52.600 Absolutely not.

01:05:53.560 The system's already stacked in favor of the prosecutor.

01:05:56.060 It shouldn't be stacked the other way.

01:05:57.640 And I agree with you.

01:05:58.620 He he didn't seem to particularly like Mr.

01:06:01.460 Binger, but you could understand why Mr.

01:06:03.540 Binger had done some several irresponsible things.

01:06:06.840 And so the judge got angry with him a few times, but then came out before the trial was over and defended all the lawyers involved in the case.

01:06:14.120 Well, you know, he has to work with all these people again.

01:06:16.460 Right.

01:06:16.860 You want to maintain, I guess, looking forward to a professional relationship with all these people.

01:06:21.860 But frankly, there's no question in my mind.

01:06:23.600 Binger should have been sanctioned for no other reason than referencing Kyle having asserted his Fifth Amendment.

01:06:29.280 Right. And mentioning it in front of the jury, which, folks, for those of you who are not lawyers, you just do not do that.

01:06:35.700 That does not happen.

01:06:36.980 Again, that right is sacrosanct and you cannot have that right to remain silent, used against you in a court of law, period.

01:06:44.580 It may not even be mentioned.

01:06:45.820 And a career prosecutor knows this.

01:06:48.240 That was no mistake.

01:06:49.420 That was intentional.

01:06:50.360 Exactly right.

01:06:52.080 And also trying to bring in evidence that he knew he was banned from bringing in.

01:06:56.580 The court had said, I'm inclined to disallow that.

01:06:59.300 Don't go near that without asking me.

01:07:01.580 And he jumped into it with both feet, trying to suggest that Kyle had a prior incident with a gun that had been ruled.

01:07:08.360 Well, it had been suggested that it was going to be ruled inadmissible.

01:07:12.460 So the prejudice that was stacking up against Kyle Rittenhouse from the beginning was enormous.

01:07:16.880 And that's not even discussing things like the video, the jurors being videotaped, the MSNBC reporter following the jurors when they knew they had no business doing that.

01:07:28.400 And that's been ruled misconduct in the past.

01:07:32.300 The intimidation of the jurors with the protesters on the courthouse steps on and on it goes.

01:07:37.500 And I have to say, this jury was very brave.

01:07:41.040 I think so.

01:07:41.780 I mean, they were obviously facing tremendous pressure, certainly media pressure, social pressure.

01:07:47.420 There's no there's no social win for them by voting for acquittal.

01:07:51.140 It could only be negative because the right doesn't attack people for simply delivering a verdict in court.

01:07:57.120 That's what the left does.

01:07:58.340 So the only threat was from the left and they they hung in there.

01:08:01.920 I guess I presume we're going to find out there was one one juror probably hanging out.

01:08:07.900 That's why we're in our fourth day of deliberations.

01:08:10.040 I presume that's the juror who wanted to take the jury instructions home yesterday.

01:08:14.260 I think what must have happened is they were the only holdout.

01:08:16.840 The other jurors said, listen, do you do whatever you need to do?

01:08:20.180 But we're not voting guilty on any of these charges.

01:08:22.800 So take the jury instructions home.

01:08:25.020 Sleep on it.

01:08:25.840 If you need to come back here tomorrow.

01:08:27.640 If you can't also vote for acquittal, we're a hung jury because we're not going into the Thanksgiving week in this courtroom.

01:08:34.160 Mm hmm.

01:08:35.320 It seems like there had to be a holdout for it to take this long, right?

01:08:39.080 This many hours, this many days.

01:08:41.480 It just it's hard to believe that for each one of those hours they were going over each case, each shooting Rosenbaum, Grosskreutz, Huber and Jump Kick Man, who wasn't shot, but shot at that wouldn't have taken this long.

01:08:54.500 I mean, I can't think of a world in which that would have taken this long.

01:08:56.860 So somebody seems to have been a holdout again, speculative.

01:08:59.600 We'll find out if one of the jurors decides to speak and we're told that they they are allowed to if they now so choose the normal way it works.

01:09:06.600 I looked it up, actually, in Wisconsin at some point.

01:09:09.300 And it was, I believe you're supposed to, as counsel, submit your request to the court and the court will then let the jury know, of course, guess what?

01:09:17.760 The media wants to speak with you.

01:09:19.300 And then it's up to the jurors whether they want to do that or not.

01:09:22.840 And listen, they may not want to.

01:09:24.500 You know, they may not want to, Bronco, given I'm calling you Bronco now, given given the way, you know, the number of threats that have already been leveled in this case.

01:09:33.920 I think most of the jurors will not want to.

01:09:35.920 I expect if we're right.

01:09:37.480 And in thinking there was one holdout, I suspect it was the jury for person, juror number 54.

01:09:44.180 But I suspect whoever that one holdout is will want to talk because what tends to happen in these situations is, you know, their their social circle would have been against acquittal.

01:09:54.500 They voted for acquittal anyway.

01:09:56.140 Obviously, it has to be a unanimous decision, this acquittal.

01:09:58.920 Now they have to go back to their social environment and kind of explain it away.

01:10:02.500 And what we typically see happen is they'll come up with excuses.

01:10:05.020 They'll say, if only I had known this evidence that wasn't admitted or if only I had known that I would have vote.

01:10:10.680 I was misled somehow by the court process.

01:10:13.420 So they can take the heat off themselves for having voted for acquittal within their social circle and place it someplace else.

01:10:20.340 And to do that, they want to explain how it was that this what they'll characterize afterwards as a mistake happened.

01:10:27.860 But that's fine.

01:10:28.900 I don't care about any of that.

01:10:29.940 I don't think they have it.

01:10:32.660 Kyle Rittenhouse is free of any claim of criminal liability in this case.

01:10:37.260 And that's the outcome that we I expected.

01:10:40.720 I hope for I had hope for it the first day.

01:10:44.220 Frankly, I thought the defense in their closing argument should have made clear to the jurors that, listen, you have 36 pages of jury instructions.

01:10:50.780 You have to decide how to use them.

01:10:52.720 But we encourage you to start with self-defense first, because if you find self-defense, nothing else matters and you can be home in time for lunch.

01:11:00.620 Well, what a critical ruling that was, Andrew, where the defense did get the judge to rule that if the to instruct the jury, if you find he shot, you know, Rosenbaum, Grosskreutz, Huber in self-defense, you can stop.

01:11:15.820 You need not consider the lesser included charges.

01:11:18.420 Like if he's if it was self-defense on intentional murder, it was self-defense on every lesser charge underneath intentional murder.

01:11:26.580 Your job is done.

01:11:27.960 And that was big.

01:11:30.240 Well, it's for each count.

01:11:31.520 So for each person, you'd have to find self-defense separately.

01:11:34.760 Each person had lesser included.

01:11:36.140 So if you found self-defense for each count at any level, then all the rest went away.

01:11:39.920 But they did have to find self-defense five times.

01:11:42.840 And they did.

01:11:43.560 When you when they were going down the list and they, you know, by the time they got to gauge Grosskreutz, you knew it was going to be another not guilty because like that one was such a slam dunk.

01:11:52.220 If they had found him guilty on that, it just would have been such a stunner.

01:11:55.080 So it became kind of clear.

01:11:56.780 And Kyle Rittenhouse, you could see, my gosh, his reaction.

01:11:59.920 In fact, we have it.

01:12:00.900 We have it teed up again for our listening audience.

01:12:03.260 Here it is.

01:12:03.640 And for our viewing audience, you can see it again on YouTube dot com slash Megan Kelly when we post it later.

01:12:08.560 Watch.

01:12:10.380 Kyle Rittenhouse, as to the first count of the information, Joseph Rosenbaum, we the jury find the defendant, Kyle H. Rittenhouse, not guilty.

01:12:28.560 As to the third count of the information, unknown male, we the jury find the defendant, Kyle H. Rittenhouse, not guilty.

01:12:35.760 As to the fourth count of the information, Anthony Huber, we the jury find the defendant, Kyle H. Rittenhouse, not guilty.

01:12:44.940 As to the fifth count of the information, Gage Grosskreutz, we the jury find the defendant, Kyle H. Rittenhouse, not guilty.

01:12:56.040 Members of the jury, are these your unanimous verdicts?

01:12:59.620 Is there anyone who does not agree with the verdicts as read?

01:13:03.820 Would you wish the jury pulled?

01:13:05.760 Him falling to his knees is such a moment.

01:13:09.080 He's grabbing for the listening audience his tie, his chest, almost as if it feels constricted.

01:13:15.980 Gosh, that's the most human moment, right?

01:13:18.460 You could feel his relief and the stress.

01:13:22.260 And I'm sure he does have PTSD, as his lawyers suggested.

01:13:27.260 How could you not?

01:13:28.640 I mean, even if you weren't prosecuted, the mere fact that you survived those brutal, vicious, serial, murderous attacks on you and somehow survived, that alone would give you PTSD.

01:13:38.820 Then they have the state bring its entire power upon you to try to lock you in a cage for the rest of your life.

01:13:46.160 No possibility of early release.

01:13:48.440 He was he was abused both times.

01:13:50.980 He was abused by his attackers, his physical attackers.

01:13:53.760 And then he was abused by this prosecution.

01:13:55.700 Now, already, we're getting some media reaction.

01:14:00.120 It's exactly what you would expect.

01:14:02.300 You've got Bakari Sellers, CNN, tweets out, look, black folk.

01:14:09.460 Don't y'all even think about trying what Kyle did.

01:14:12.000 I know most of us know this, but for some young ones, a clear implication that a black man would never have been found not guilty.

01:14:19.480 Ellie Mistal of I think it's The Nation just tweeted out, quote, told you so.

01:14:25.520 Told you so.

01:14:26.140 He's been on MSNBC railing about this case and trying to make it about race from the beginning.

01:14:30.220 And then here's good old Joy Reid.

01:14:35.080 We knew, but it's sometimes helpful to remind ourselves how America was designed to work.

01:14:41.640 It continues to work as designed.

01:14:44.140 We have learned again what is considered legal for some people, in quotes, some people to do in America.

01:14:51.080 It's helpful to know where you stand in your country.

01:14:53.960 Be safe out there.

01:14:56.140 She talks about this as though the three men he shot were black.

01:15:00.360 And that this was about, you know, what a white man can get away with doing to a black man.

01:15:04.580 It's had nothing.

01:15:05.320 It had nothing to do with race.

01:15:06.820 This particular shooting.

01:15:08.260 It was about whether he was under a reasonable belief that his own life or great bodily harm were in jeopardy.

01:15:16.040 That right.

01:15:16.420 That that's that's what the case is about.

01:15:17.860 For this specific case, and by the way, more generally, in my professional experience, the people who benefit disproportionately from self-defense law, from the privilege to use force in self-defense, tend to be young black males who are growing up living in violent environments, find they have to defend themselves and then justify their use of defensive force in court.

01:15:38.260 So these are not laws against black people.

01:15:41.360 These are laws that help any law abiding person who's compelled to defend themselves or their family against criminal predation.

01:15:48.260 You can make the case that Kyle Rittenhouse never should have been there that night.

01:15:53.340 OK, I get that case.

01:15:54.440 I mean, that could be debated for quite some time as a society and people are free to do it.

01:16:00.800 But legally, legally, what was at stake in this case was what are your rights to self-defense when you show up at a dangerous situation and it gets even more dangerous?

01:16:11.760 Right.

01:16:11.940 And that's really what happened.

01:16:13.080 He showed up at a dangerous place.

01:16:15.060 We knew it was going to be dangerous.

01:16:16.400 That's why he brought the AR-15 just in case.

01:16:18.720 And then it got even more dangerous than he had ever imagined.

01:16:21.740 And we saw it all.

01:16:23.540 You don't have to imagine.

01:16:24.380 You don't have to take Kyle Rittenhouse's word for it or the words of all white witnesses.

01:16:28.420 You can just look at the videotape for yourself.

01:16:29.940 Just watch.

01:16:30.740 It plays out.

01:16:31.800 They slow mode it.

01:16:33.060 You could see it frame by frame that this kid had a gun pointed in his face by Gage Grosskreutz that Huber was attacking him, beating him down with a skateboard, which, by the way, have been used to kill other people in the past in other attacks.

01:16:47.760 Jump kick, man.

01:16:48.880 It's caught on tape.

01:16:49.660 A long career criminal.

01:16:50.960 Now we know it comes out.

01:16:53.120 And the original man shot Rosenbaum, who, I mean, his crimes are disgusting and very well known at this point.

01:17:00.460 He wasn't well.

01:17:01.500 I actually saw a report.

01:17:02.520 It was on a Fox station, Andrew, recently about how the defense ought to be called out for mentioning that Rosenbaum was, quote, crazy and that, you know, he had bipolar disorder and that this was somehow a demonization of his mental health problems.

01:17:16.620 Are they kidding?

01:17:17.680 Are they kidding?

01:17:18.200 I mean, the same people who mocked, you know, the press, Kyle Rittenhouse's tears.

01:17:21.860 Yes. I mean, I saw the tweets along those effects that it shouldn't have been mentioned that, you know, Rosenbaum's mental illness and his child rape convictions were irrelevant to what he did to Kyle Rittenhouse.

01:17:35.900 And I don't understand how people think that way.

01:17:39.020 I mean, from a lawyer's perspective, I can see the arguments for excluding that evidence, like the judge actually excluded it until the door was opened up by the state's own witness.

01:17:47.440 But are we really saying that somebody's mental illness and child rape proclivities have nothing, whatever, no connection at all to them then chasing down a child in a dark parking lot and attacking them?

01:18:00.140 I don't think that's that much of a stretch.

01:18:03.320 And by the way, for people who say Kyle shouldn't have been there, it was poor judgment.

01:18:06.680 I agree.

01:18:07.060 If I had a 17 year old son who wanted to go to a riot with an AR for whatever reason, provide medical care, I'd say no way is that happening.

01:18:15.220 That is that is just only bad things can result from that as actually happened here.

01:18:19.980 But at the same time, just a couple of weeks ago, we had a news story about a woman who was raped on a subway car in front of witnesses and nobody did anything to help her.

01:18:30.360 So are we going to be a society where we're going to say, hey, anytime something bad has happened, I'm not intervening.

01:18:35.600 It's none of my business.

01:18:37.200 Is that the kind of society we really want to live in or do we want people to be willing to help?

01:18:42.720 Yeah, I saw it.

01:18:43.940 I saw it, too.

01:18:44.600 There was that one video where another separate video in New York where a woman was confronted by a very angry man.

01:18:53.680 She was white.

01:18:54.240 He was black.

01:18:55.360 And he wound up punching her in the face and had sort of he'd been getting all over up in her grill and punched her right in the face.

01:19:02.840 And no one stepped in to help her there either.

01:19:06.240 And then everybody says, well, why didn't anybody do anything?

01:19:08.680 Well, you know why they didn't do anything?

01:19:10.040 Because of Kyle Rittenhouse, because of George Zimmerman, because of well-intentioned people trying to do the right thing and then finding themselves getting prosecuted for murder as a consequence.

01:19:20.160 Yeah.

01:19:20.800 In that in that latter video, it appeared this it looked like her boyfriend or partner was standing right next to her, a guy and did nothing.

01:19:27.620 It caused me to say to my own husband, I said, what what would you have done?

01:19:30.280 Because the assailant clearly seemed extremely angry and not really all that well.

01:19:36.060 And he said, I would have been between you and that guy long before he threw the first punch.

01:19:41.000 You know, I mean, that's the situation we're in.

01:19:43.380 Like you get in these places where you have no choice but to defend yourself or thank God, you know, hopefully if you have somebody with you to help you defend yourself.

01:19:50.320 But if when it's just you and that's the situation he was in, it's just you and they've got their hand on your gun and people are now like, well, they had the strap.

01:19:59.020 So he's supposed to risk his own life on the strength of that strap while he's got this crazed guy running, lunging at him, yelling, fuck you, who's already threatened his life not long earlier in the evening.

01:20:10.720 Sure. Right. Sure. It's just so unrealistic. We're going to squeeze in a quick break.

01:20:15.160 I'll give you the last word, Andrew, that the way people should be thinking about this as the media assaults them with a different narrative today.

01:20:21.760 These were the only verdicts consistent with the evidence, the law and justice in this case.

01:20:27.540 Thank you for your amazing coverage. I'm sure we're not done. I appreciate it.

01:20:31.360 We are going to come right back with Mark Eiglash, former prosecutor, now defense attorney who took a position on this case.

01:20:37.460 Very clear, saying he should be acquitted. So what does he think now of some of the reaction coming in?

01:20:47.400 The jury in the Kyle Rittenhouse has returned a verdict, and that verdict is not guilty on all charges.

01:20:54.560 Not guilty. Of course, Kyle Rittenhouse cannot be retried by this court because of our double jeopardy rules.

01:21:02.100 And now we are already getting a reaction rolling in from the likes of people like Mayor Bill de Blasio in New York City, who tweets out as follows.

01:21:10.720 Anthony Huber and Joseph Rosenbaum are victims. They should be alive today.

01:21:16.860 The only reason they're not is because a violent, dangerous man chose to take a gun across state lines and start shooting people.

01:21:25.700 To call this a miscarriage of justice is an understatement.

01:21:29.220 To call what Mayor de Blasio just tweeted out disinformation is charitable.

01:21:36.360 Mark Eiglash is with me now, longtime friend, former prosecutor, now defense attorney.

01:21:40.780 And I don't like I'll just take that one.

01:21:42.900 They're not victims. The jury says otherwise.

01:21:46.160 The only reason they're not alive today is because both of them attacked Kyle Rittenhouse.

01:21:51.200 And you don't have to believe me. It's on tape.

01:21:53.900 Not because he was a violent, dangerous man who chose to take a gun across state lines, which he did not do.

01:22:00.500 That's that was disproven. He didn't take a gun across state lines at all.

01:22:03.340 And he didn't just start shooting people. He was attacked.

01:22:07.420 But this is the narrative that that he's been up against, Mark, and will continue to be already the early reactions.

01:22:15.700 It's about race. This would have gone another way if it had been a black defendant, even though the guys he shot were white.

01:22:21.520 And you tell me whether you think justice was done.

01:22:24.860 OK, so justice was done.

01:22:26.400 And and what bothers me the most about those comments, all of which I'm glad that they're making because they feel that way.

01:22:33.760 And it's totally OK under the First Amendment to spew whatever you want.

01:22:37.740 That's what makes our country great.

01:22:39.120 I'm not a fan of restricting people's free speech, but I need people to understand what's happening there.

01:22:44.980 Those statements are great insults to the jurors who gave their time, their energy, their focus.

01:22:54.520 And they made a decision based upon the evidence and the law.

01:22:59.320 And this is what they get.

01:23:01.200 That's completely unfair for people who perform one of the highest duties under the law that you can other than serving in the military.

01:23:08.320 Mm hmm. They sat there day in, day out, took a week away from their families and so on to deliberate this case, the jury instructions, all the things.

01:23:17.520 And now Bill de Blasio is going to try to say it was a miscarriage.

01:23:21.520 How does he know? I guarantee he hasn't watched one minute of the trial, not one.

01:23:24.900 He's just a knee jerk, you know, ideological reaction that really I mean, I agree we have free speech rights.

01:23:32.480 It doesn't mean we have to like what the folks say.

01:23:34.420 And he deserves a hit in the face. And I'm just the person to give it to him.

01:23:37.980 Rhetorical hit. I mean, of course, listen to this, though, Mark, because the media has been a massive part of this problem.

01:23:43.620 We do have an obligation in the media to at least try to hew to the facts we do and not to rush judgment in a case like this.

01:23:49.700 It's what you owe your audience and to present both sides. Right.

01:23:52.700 I mean, that's what we've been doing all week, presenting both sides.

01:23:55.060 Like our viewers know and listeners what the prosecution's arguments were and how it could have gone a different way.

01:24:01.320 None of them would have been surprised if it had because we we made sure they understood both sides.

01:24:06.280 Lester Holt over on NBC in breaking this news moments ago.

01:24:11.000 Take a listen to his how he how how he framed the issues.

01:24:14.940 The prosecution had made the argument in their closing arguments that you can't provoke something and then claim it was self-defense.

01:24:22.940 Maybe you can. Is that what this says?

01:24:25.460 I mean, the problem there is he doesn't understand the law.

01:24:28.320 What the jury just found is he didn't provoke it.

01:24:30.100 Well, OK, yes and no.

01:24:33.320 Legally, he didn't provoke it to the extent that he lost his right to argue self-defense.

01:24:38.920 But Megan, if we're being factually honest, the jury isn't saying that they like Kyle Rittenhouse.

01:24:44.720 I don't know whether they're judging his character at all, but it doesn't mean that they're OK with him having a gun.

01:24:50.340 It doesn't mean that they're OK with him even going to that city and inserting himself into that scenario because I'm not OK with those things.

01:24:57.140 I've been very open about that. All they're saying is, regardless of how we feel about his choices, does he legally deserve the protection under self-defense?

01:25:06.580 The answer is yes. But this in no way is support for Kyle Rittenhouse.

01:25:12.180 This is no way indicting him as a hero in any way.

01:25:15.860 Casey Anthony wasn't decided as a good mother when she got acquitted or O.J.

01:25:20.840 Simpson's not a gentle, loving husband that you want women to be around.

01:25:24.580 It just meant that legally the prosecution didn't prove their case.

01:25:27.840 But he is misframing the legal issue. He's suggesting, oh, wait, I guess you can provoke violence and then get off.

01:25:36.300 What the jury is essentially saying is that Kyle Rittenhouse did not provoke these three incidents.

01:25:42.320 But provocation under the law would have deprived Kyle of the right to self-defense unless the jury then later found that he was faced with great bodily harm and he he was unable to retreat and had exhausted all possible means of escape.

01:25:56.580 OK, so it's possible they got. No, no, no. I know the law. Trust me.

01:26:00.640 I know. But but how about this? Can we agree on this?

01:26:04.560 There could have been a certain amount of provocation, but not enough to take away his right to argue self-defense.

01:26:13.260 That's the I don't I don't see his provocation. I really don't see. I don't think he should have been there.

01:26:17.380 I've said that as well. I don't see him provoking anybody. I really don't.

01:26:20.400 There's been no proof he pointed his rifle at anybody. He went there. He was trying to be an EMT.

01:26:24.740 He didn't go to be a vigilante. He went because he hoped to keep the peace and help people who got hurt.

01:26:29.560 Then some lunatic pedophile who just got out of the mental institution hours earlier, chased him after telling him he was going to kill him, threw a bag at him.

01:26:38.480 And then when Kyle turned around with his wearing his gun, the guy lunged for it.

01:26:43.460 That's not provocation. And what happened later with Huber and Grosskreutz, even less provocation than the first case.

01:26:48.680 Yeah. All right. And look, the bottom line is, legally, we agree on this subject matter.

01:26:53.780 Factually, I still question whether he should have been there, whether he should have owned a weapon of that significance, whether he should have done a lot of the things that he did.

01:27:02.860 That's for society to do. I still believe that he he the acquittal was the right outcome under the circumstances.

01:27:08.900 What happens now? I just said he can't be retried in this court because of double jeopardy.

01:27:13.200 But, you know, sometimes you see the feds try to swoop in.

01:27:16.220 Is this a case in which they could do that where there's been a criminal an acquittal of criminal charges in a state court?

01:27:24.040 The answer is, I don't know.

01:27:26.400 I didn't even think about that because I just don't think this is one of those cases.

01:27:30.000 I think it would be like, no, I mean, I just don't see them doing it.

01:27:34.200 I mean, is it theoretically possible you get some points on a law school exam probably for identifying that?

01:27:39.340 I think in reality, this is over for the same reasons that jurors found him not guilty across the board.

01:27:46.380 They would find him not guilty in federal court.

01:27:48.700 I think that they have an obligation not to even consider going forward.

01:27:52.860 And now now the lawsuits and they'll go both ways.

01:27:57.140 Right. I mean, we already know that Gage Grosskreutz is suing the city for 10 million dollars, something the defense pointed out.

01:28:04.200 When he testified, you know, you've got 10 million dollars to lie or 10 million reasons to lie and so on.

01:28:08.500 They said a Kyle Rittenhouse has no money, so he's sort of judgment proof.

01:28:12.720 It's kind of pointless to sue him.

01:28:14.760 But, yeah, against the city.

01:28:16.220 And then the other way, I mean, already you're seeing a lot of folks say Kyle Rittenhouse should sue everybody.

01:28:21.040 He should sue all of the news organizations that said he was a white supremacist, that called him a domestic terrorist, a vigilante and so on.

01:28:29.400 You know, we did see that kid in the Covington case do that.

01:28:32.860 He sued Nick Sandman.

01:28:34.600 CNN got a settlement.

01:28:36.340 Others got settlements.

01:28:38.240 The media does have an obligation to be careful the way they talk about people who are not public figures.

01:28:43.540 What do you make of his chances?

01:28:44.880 I like the idea of him suing select people, depending upon what they said and the impact of what they said, because the stakes are much higher now.

01:28:57.240 When you call someone certain things in the media, you could be risking literally life and property because people don't know.

01:29:06.280 They follow the media.

01:29:07.220 They think they are telling the truth.

01:29:08.800 And when someone's calling him something, they act upon it.

01:29:12.120 So I don't mind him suing.

01:29:14.240 Now, legally, what are his chances?

01:29:16.040 It really is just fact sensitive.

01:29:17.900 What was reported?

01:29:19.100 What was told to that outlet before reporting it?

01:29:21.800 When the president of the United States calls someone something and then a media outlet reports it, let's say, afterwards, you know, I mean, I think they're probably on solid footing if they reported something the president might have said.

01:29:33.440 So I think that it's got to be very unusual circumstances for him to prevail.

01:29:37.360 How about the accountability of our leaders on this, Mark?

01:29:41.160 Tom Cotton, Senator Tom Cotton, by the way, he's going to be our guest next week.

01:29:45.200 He tweeted out Joe Biden needs to publicly apologize to Kyle Rittenhouse.

01:29:49.720 And he weighed in on this case way too early.

01:29:53.420 He called him a white supremacist, none of which was even discussed in court.

01:29:57.800 They didn't they didn't have any proof of that.

01:29:59.680 Absolutely none.

01:30:00.460 And of course, he won't apologize.

01:30:03.440 But I talked earlier this week, Mark, about how Joe Biden's weighed in on a couple of these cases.

01:30:07.740 He weighed in on the Jacob Blake case and rushed to judgment there, too, which was the precedent to the Kenosha violence.

01:30:15.240 You know, Jacob Blake, a black man, was shot seven times in the back by a cop who was later ruled legally justified by the AG of Wisconsin and also by Merrick Garland once he took over as Biden's AG and Biden became president.

01:30:26.660 Why? Because Jacob Blake had a knife.

01:30:28.600 Jacob Blake survived two tasers.

01:30:30.140 Jacob Blake was beating on the cops.

01:30:31.560 Jacob Blake lunged for the police for another weapon, but but but and so on.

01:30:34.740 He also said that those cops should be charged before he knew any of that.

01:30:38.780 He said he was unarmed.

01:30:39.720 Jacob Blake, he wasn't unarmed.

01:30:41.140 So did Kamala Harris.

01:30:42.760 To me, it's so frustrating to see these very powerful politicians with huge platforms and microphones stir the pot before we know what the facts are, then refuse to apologize or take it back.

01:30:53.380 And then when there's an ensuing riot and violence, do the exact same thing again and then again, no accountability or willingness to acknowledge their role in causing the mayhem.

01:31:04.740 Megan, I share your frustration.

01:31:06.860 I think it's probably greater for me because, as I told you, President Trump condemned my client, Scott Peterson.

01:31:12.800 And I'm telling you, my client is completely innocent.

01:31:16.160 Listen, I call upon Biden and others at this point, if they recognize that they were factually inaccurate, if there's no evidence of him being a white supremacist and you called him that, then get in front of those same cameras and apologize.

01:31:32.900 We'll think more of you and other leaders thinking about getting involved in a criminal case before you know all the evidence.

01:31:40.180 Don't do it.

01:31:41.800 It's fundamentally wrong.

01:31:43.520 It messes with the criminal justice system.

01:31:45.860 You screw with the people of the United States, some who will take to violence based upon your words.

01:31:52.140 Stop it.

01:31:53.540 It's so true.

01:31:55.080 I was off during that time when Trump was doing that.

01:31:57.920 And I remember thinking, oh, my God, like because remember the kinder, gentler time, Mark, where our public leaders, especially a sitting president, would not weigh in on a case in the news.

01:32:09.700 And I remember when I remember my own first memory of that being broken was Barack Obama, President Obama talking about Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman.

01:32:19.660 And remember, he said, if I had a son, he would have looked like Trayvon.

01:32:22.800 And I remember, you know, the Fox News and all of us were like, whoa, what's he saying?

01:32:27.080 We know he's clearly telegraphing whose side he's on.

01:32:31.600 That's so mild compared to what would come after him.

01:32:36.140 And now it's like no holds barred.

01:32:38.980 They seem to enjoy taking these cases and making them political footballs and the defendants rights be damned.

01:32:47.320 Yeah.

01:32:47.540 And I thank you and others who will now make that an unpopular thing to do.

01:32:53.060 Shed light on the leaders and let them know that there are repercussions to you speaking out.

01:32:59.380 They think they can do it freely and get the benefit of it.

01:33:02.080 No, you can't do it.

01:33:03.440 It's wrong and it messes with too much.

01:33:06.020 Don't do it anymore.

01:33:07.620 Yeah, exactly right.

01:33:08.680 But gosh, OK, Ben Rhodes, speaking of President Obama, he was one of his top guys, tweets out a very dark message sent to all the other heavily armed would be vigilantes out there.

01:33:24.260 I think it's quite the opposite.

01:33:26.120 No one wants to go through what Kyle Rittenhouse just went through this past year plus.

01:33:30.240 Did you see the relief on that kid's face?

01:33:31.880 I mean, he collapsed.

01:33:32.620 He literally collapsed in the courthouse.

01:33:34.620 He's a kid.

01:33:35.780 I recognize technically he's an adult, but who's going to be inspired by what's happened to him to go out and do the same?

01:33:44.760 Unfortunately, many, Megan, unfortunately.

01:33:47.540 And that's why I think the message needs to get out that there's no precedent here, that these were very unusual facts.

01:33:52.980 And he got away with one where if the facts were a little different, him putting himself in that situation, which, Megan, you and I seem to disagree on.

01:34:00.720 But I don't think that he should have been there.

01:34:02.560 I think he'll even know.

01:34:03.340 I agree.

01:34:03.840 He shouldn't have been there.

01:34:04.480 I've said that.

01:34:05.220 No.

01:34:05.900 OK, well, there's no precedent here.

01:34:08.080 You know, stay away.

01:34:09.480 Don't walk down the street with a gun, you know.

01:34:12.000 And and but if you are going to do that, then make damn sure that your life is in jeopardy, which apparently the jury found that he did.

01:34:20.020 Mm hmm.

01:34:21.280 I don't know.

01:34:22.060 I think this is this this roots back to so many things.

01:34:25.900 There are so many sources of the blame.

01:34:27.920 One of them is the governor of Wisconsin who refused to keep the peace in the wake of the Jacob Blake shooting.

01:34:32.400 He refused to call in the National Guard.

01:34:34.580 He sent out an incendiary tweet rushing to judgment in that case, in which now to reiterate, the police have been exonerated and he let his city burn for two nights.

01:34:45.840 Finally, he called in some smattering of National Guard was one twenty five and his city burned a second night and there was arson.

01:34:52.780 There was looting there.

01:34:53.940 There were burglaries.

01:34:55.300 There was chaos in the streets.

01:34:56.460 And that is why Kyle Rittenhouse and others, again, in my view, and I realize people disagree, wrongly decided to try to keep the peace themselves.

01:35:04.260 And there's a reason we don't arm 17 year old boys and send them out with AR 15s for crowd control.

01:35:09.960 They're not mature enough.

01:35:11.260 They don't have the life experience.

01:35:12.600 We won't even let them vote.

01:35:14.260 We won't let them drink.

01:35:15.840 The cerebral frontal cortex is not fully developed until they're in their mid 20s.

01:35:20.280 For God's sake, you don't want them doing this.

01:35:22.560 And there's a reason we put cops through all sorts of training before we arm them and tell them they can interact with the public with a weapon.

01:35:28.400 OK, I get all of it.

01:35:29.400 I'm on the same page with you on that.

01:35:31.580 But the governor of Wisconsin left people in Wisconsin and in Kenosha feeling like they had no help.

01:35:38.500 One hundred and twenty five National Guardsmen is not enough for a city of one hundred thousand.

01:35:41.500 And the local sheriff's office, I'm told, only had one hundred and twelve.

01:35:45.700 Finally, the governor wound up sending in another twenty one hundred twenty five.

01:35:49.240 Now you got two fifty.

01:35:50.300 Guess how many he's calling in this week?

01:35:51.860 Five hundred.

01:35:52.860 He finally got it.

01:35:54.020 But he put Kenosha's in this position.

01:35:56.220 Joe Biden put them in this position.

01:35:58.040 The media that rushed to judgment in the Jacob Blake case put them in this position.

01:36:01.480 It's not to exonerate those who were involved in the particular incident.

01:36:04.500 But there are a lot there should be a lot of soul searching tonight and not just by those who went out on the streets that night, August 25th, 2020.

01:36:13.680 Agreed.

01:36:14.560 But there won't be.

01:36:15.860 There won't be.

01:36:17.120 It's only going to stoke the racial narrative, right?

01:36:19.100 It's only going to stoke it.

01:36:19.920 You go get it, Megan.

01:36:21.100 You got it.

01:36:21.600 I have faith in you.

01:36:22.400 Come on.

01:36:22.920 Dig it up.

01:36:23.540 Make sure that you hold people accountable.

01:36:24.940 Well, you know how tribal we are, right?

01:36:26.500 It's like we we don't we don't listen to each other anymore.

01:36:29.880 Just to add to the discussion again, Ellie Mistel of The Nation, the the question was never do white people have a right to self-defense.

01:36:38.680 The question was always do white people have the right to self-defense after they show up with a gun looking to shoot someone.

01:36:46.260 And not surprisingly, a bunch of white people are like, sure, why not?

01:36:50.240 Hey, Ellie, not helpful, not factual, not smart, not even close to on point.

01:36:55.900 Mark Eiglarsh, appreciate you being here.

01:36:57.940 Thank you so much.

01:36:58.720 My pleasure.

01:36:59.960 Thank you, Megan.

01:37:01.100 I certainly hope that we don't have chaos and violence and riots to report on when we rejoin you on Monday.

01:37:06.680 If history is any indicator, it's going to go the bad way.

01:37:10.460 I will say there weren't after the cops were exonerated in Jacob Blake.

01:37:14.400 And Jacob Blake has actually called for peace prior to the verdict.

01:37:18.660 But hopefully that'll prevail.

01:37:20.780 Thanks for being with us this week.

01:37:21.920 Don't forget, Monday, we have Senator Tom Cotton.

01:37:24.680 Feel free to download the show and go to YouTube as well.

01:37:26.760 Have a good weekend.

01:37:28.720 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:37:31.340 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - November 19, 2021

Kyle Rittenhouse Found Not Guilty on All Counts, with Glenn Greenwald, Andrew Branca, Mark Eiglarsh, and Angenette Levy ｜ Ep. 207

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