The Megyn Kelly Show - Latest Arrest Connected to Karmelo Anthony Case, Nowak Prosecutors Appeal Digwa’s Lenient Sentence, New Developments in Nancy Guthrie Case ｜ Ep. 1348

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00:00:55.360 All right, full-time thoughts.

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00:01:26.400 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:38.080 Hey, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, and happy Friday. We made it

00:01:42.620 through another week. Later in the show, we're going to have our all-star panel to discuss the

00:01:46.280 latest with this Nancy Guthrie case. Are we closer to solving this thing than we think?

00:01:50.320 Our news with Maureen O'Connell the other day went viral. She said she's 75% sure that they're

00:01:58.420 closing in on Porch Man. So we'll get into it. We're also going to get in in just a minute to

00:02:03.800 the controversy in the WNBA over Caitlin Clark. Jason Whitlock has got the inside scoop on this.

00:02:11.420 But first, we begin today with a major update in the Carmelo Anthony case. There has now been

00:02:17.620 an arrest, reportedly as many as three arrests, down in Texas. And the feds are now reportedly

00:02:25.580 stepping in, reports Fox News Digital, following a brutal assault on a Texas woman who was allegedly

00:02:32.940 beaten down by a group of suspects chanting, free Carmelo. Fox is reporting that in Longview,

00:02:41.200 Texas, police have made this arrest in connection with this alleged random attack

00:02:46.120 on a victim by this group of suspects that claim, according to Fox, that they had had said,

00:02:56.200 quote, they were going to target the smallest white girl they could find.

00:03:01.020 And they did indeed find a white girl who appears to be severely injured. We've got pictures of her

00:03:08.240 injuries, which I'm going to show you now. She is we don't have her name. We do know that one

00:03:15.660 woman has been arrested for this assault. Here is the victim whose injuries appear all over her face

00:03:22.320 and head. Her eyebrow is bloody and looks to have a deep gash on it. The top of her head appears to

00:03:28.420 have a deep gash and is quite bloody. There's a picture that they've released of her high-heeled

00:03:33.640 shoe, which none of us can quite figure out what we're seeing, but they appear to think it's

00:03:37.560 evidence and has blood on it. We can cycle through the pictures, please. And you can see some of her

00:03:43.860 injury. She's wearing a neck brace. She's clearly been attacked. This is not this is not neck brace 0.98

00:03:49.180 that you. OK, now we do have her name. The victim's name is Sammy Lee. This is not the kind of neck

00:03:56.060 brace. You know, we had a car accident and we're looking to run up our insurance bills. You can see

00:03:59.420 the blood all over this woman's face and head and arrests are being made. The first one is of 21

00:04:05.260 year old CRN Fuller of Longview. She is facing assault charges and was booked into jail on a

00:04:12.640 $20,000 bond, according to local KYTX. And the locals are reporting at least two other arrests

00:04:21.000 as well in this case. Unbelievable. So we don't have any idea what the race of the perpetrators

00:04:27.440 is, though I'm going to assume it's not necessarily white if they were looking to

00:04:32.840 target, quote, the smallest white girl they could find. But this is in retaliation.

00:04:37.960 The report is that this is in retaliation for the Carmelo Anthony conviction. This is insane. Carmelo Anthony attacked and stabbed a young man to death. He happened to be black and the decedent is white. And this wasn't a race case, despite the fact that Carmelo Anthony's family spokesperson tried to make it one.

00:04:59.640 and now this small group of people, although it's growing, like the intellectual class,

00:05:05.500 so-called, is jumping on board of this. Oh, now we have a picture of the perpetrator. Yeah,

00:05:10.660 she does happen to be black. She's there with some crazy hair, blonde tips and dark roots, 1.00

00:05:18.360 and I guess was allegedly part of this whole thing, now being held on $20,000 bond. 0.84

00:05:23.820 So they're turning this into a race crime. Like what wasn't a race crime is turning into a race

00:05:28.680 crime because there's a collection of people extremely angry about the fact that justice

00:05:35.560 applied to Carmelo Anthony the same as it would to any other person who stabbed another boy in the

00:05:42.760 heart with no reason. Here to join us on this case and more is our friend Jason Whitlock. He is the

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00:07:12.200 this is so infuriating jason the turning of the narrative around carmelo anthony has been

00:07:18.360 infuriating from the start and now it's culminating in race-based attacks as some sort of vengeance

00:07:27.340 for what that the person who was hurt here was white it was austin metcalf who was the victim

00:07:35.060 here the world is upside down megan and we sit here and we're baffled like how did we get here

00:07:42.080 And it's been a long process and it takes a lot to understand what is transpiring.

00:07:51.260 But, you know, I I what Megan, do you remember the West Memphis three case?

00:07:58.560 West Memphis, Arkansas, HBO did three documentaries, three white kids, teenagers murdered three eight year old boys.

00:08:09.440 And these were all white kids. Damien Echols, 18, 19 years old, Jason Baldwin and a Jesse Miss Kelly.

00:08:19.160 They did the murders and the prosecution argued that this was a satanic child sacrifice case.

00:08:27.660 That's what they argued in court. And the jury agreed and convicted these guys.

00:08:33.880 that gave Damien Echols a life sentence, HBO jumped in and people like Johnny Depp and Eddie

00:08:41.500 Vedder and other celebrities jumped in and said, no, this is satanic panic. And this little small

00:08:51.280 town in Arkansas has too many Jesus concerns. And these are just kids and misconstrued and

00:08:59.040 they didn't actually do it and they for 18 years the media and hbo hbo put out three different

00:09:05.960 documentaries trying to argue that these kids were innocent and eventually eventually they got

00:09:11.480 an alfred plea and they became celebrities and heroes and they got sprung from prison

00:09:16.180 they did the crime but and the argument was like heavy metal music and say reading stephen king

00:09:26.600 books had influenced these kids into this satanic ritual child sacrifice deal. And Megan, I believe

00:09:35.460 that the same thing is going on with hip hop music and hip hop culture. It has the same influence

00:09:42.240 over young black kids, and it has overtaken black culture. And so hip hop culture believes that 0.88

00:09:50.380 you touch this kid, you put your hands on me, I have a right to kill you or assault you with 1.00

00:09:56.520 a weapon of some sort. And they want the rest of American society to bow to their standards 1.00

00:10:03.520 in hip hop. Any sort of disrespect can be met with violence. This is why you see so many videos

00:10:11.840 of black people say, don't you put your hands on me? You put your hands on me. Don't you? And see 0.99

00:10:16.860 what happens if you put your hands on me. There's a mindset that has been given to black culture 1.00

00:10:25.180 and black people that's incompatible with Christian American culture and Christian American 0.57

00:10:32.140 standards. And that's how so many people are running around defending Carmelo because they've 0.98

00:10:38.300 been brainwashed. You put your hands on him, you pushed him. And in our culture, hip hop culture,

00:10:45.860 we can be violent and kill you. And that's how they've come up with the self-defense case.

00:10:51.420 and they've got idiots like dominique alexander that represented the family the new al sharpton 1.00

00:10:57.660 he's a he's he's a convicted felon he comes from this yeah hip-hop baby beater yeah 1.00

00:11:04.200 prison hip-hop culture and he's out promoting this and and megan you remember when we saw the 0.92

00:11:11.640 the black kid out in front the black man out in front of the courthouse dancing and jumping up 0.73

00:11:15.960 and down in front of the white guy and it just looks crazy but we're gonna have to accept like 0.98

00:11:22.540 hey there is a culture that has gone absolutely nuts and has been influenced by this prison hip

00:11:31.340 hop and just quite frankly this african because a lot of this and i'm telling you it's hard to

00:11:39.340 understand but i just i just had a pastor named g g craig lewis on my show and he's been talking

00:11:46.300 about this for 30 years that black people american black people their obsession with africa

00:11:53.440 and connecting with african cultures and from the change in their hairstyle to the changing

00:12:00.000 of just their customs and wanting to bring that african culture to america well we have to be

00:12:06.680 honest about africa and african culture and how violent and how tribal it is and so we're looking

00:12:14.680 at an american culture that's being influenced by african tribalism uh satanic religious cults 1.00

00:12:24.880 hip-hop is right in line with that if you look at the roots of hip-hop and what they brought and

00:12:29.380 what they preach. It's, it's a lot to unpack and understand, but it's very important that we

00:12:36.940 understand what we're dealing with so that when we stand against it, no one can call us racist or

00:12:44.780 coons or sellouts. It's just like, Hey man, we don't want that African culture crap here in 1.00

00:12:52.180 America. We don't want religions or beliefs that say, if you touch me, I can kill you. 1.00

00:13:00.960 We got to reject that. And I know you've been dealing with the slings and arrows, as have I, 0.62

00:13:06.820 but we have to be even more resolved and resolute to like, hey, this just can't stand.

00:13:13.180 Everybody's at risk here. I don't want to live in a society where people can interpret what I say

00:13:19.200 as disrespect and then get all up in my face and try to bait me to touch them or have conflict

00:13:26.740 with them. And then they get to kill me and, and, and paint me as the bad guy. 0.91

00:13:33.080 Right. Exactly right. This is, and now like to see it morph into retaliatory attacks. It's like, 0.99

00:13:41.280 wait a minute, if we're just going purely by race here, a black person attacked and killed a white 0.99

00:13:46.840 person. If there should be retaliation, it would be the other way around. How are now more black 0.99

00:13:53.040 people attacking a white girl as justice for this case? And it's because Carmelo was convicted 0.99

00:14:00.720 and sentenced to prison that we're getting more details now as we speak on the other two arrested.

00:14:08.020 They we have their mugshots, too. It's it appears to be a group of black women who attacked 0.94

00:14:12.880 a white woman. DJ Brown and Alana Mumfrey are the names of the other two. We're showing their

00:14:19.400 pictures here. They've voluntarily surrendered now to law enforcement, according to Ladarian

00:14:24.980 Brown, Longview police spokesperson. Each faces a charge of assault causing bodily injury. Both

00:14:29.880 were booked into jail and released on $20,000 bonds, according to online jail records. Again,

00:14:35.920 the victim is Sammy Lee, who describes herself as new to Longview, Texas. She posted on Facebook

00:14:42.200 on June 21st that she was assaulted at Whiskey J's, a bar, by three, quote, random women who

00:14:48.760 yelled, free Carmelo. Lee said she had not interacted with those women in any way before

00:14:55.960 the assault. Let's see. And now, as I mentioned, the Longview police are in communication with the

00:15:02.500 FBI, Jason, regarding the case. And why? Because online conversations concerning retaliation,

00:15:10.020 division and attacks are increasing so that there's a group of people is this is sort of the

00:15:16.760 jasmine crockett street version only actual street not the fake street that jasmine pretends

00:15:22.740 she has in her background um who are looking to like exact revenge on random white people 0.68

00:15:29.160 reportedly i mean they're gonna have to check into this woman's story you know like we don't 0.67

00:15:32.480 know for sure whether that's what they said and we'll see what their defenses are um but if this

00:15:36.680 is true. This is deeply disturbing. This woman's injuries are no joke either.

00:15:41.080 Listen, and I'm not trying to be provocative. And look, it is what it is. Black people have

00:15:48.980 been convinced that we're victims of white supremacy. We're not victims of our own choices. 0.77

00:15:56.860 We don't control our destiny through the music, through our education system,

00:16:02.660 through everything the left has done the identity politics and all that you're a victim and you have

00:16:10.560 a right to be violent towards the people that you believe are your oppressors and at some point like

00:16:18.200 we like america did uh before the civil war during the civil war during jim crow america had a

00:16:26.920 conversation with itself say hey man white people have a racism problem that has to be addressed

00:16:31.600 head on. We now need to say black people have a racism problem and they're practicing a form of 0.99

00:16:39.560 religion that is destroying them and now looking to destroy the rest of America. We have to be 1.00

00:16:48.580 that direct and that honest. I get why most people are afraid. Corporate America doesn't

00:16:54.580 want you to say that and it could put you out of a leadership position or get you targeted over 1.00

00:17:00.900 social media but if we don't have a real honest conversation about what's going on with the black

00:17:08.140 church and how it's lost course and has gone into racial victimhood and again as a christian any of

00:17:17.040 or those of us that just have christian values within us we don't believe in victimhood

00:17:22.160 america is the land of opportunity it's not the land of oppression people from around the world

00:17:29.300 and people of all colors aren't trying to get into america because it's the land of oppression

00:17:34.600 it's the land of opportunity and and there's a documented history of white christians

00:17:44.200 fighting for the freedom of black people and black americans and black giving money to africa and all

00:17:53.220 this other stuff white people are not perfect they're just as flawed as everybody else but this 0.98

00:17:58.520 rap that they're like out to destroy uh black people and black americans it's a lie and there's 0.98

00:18:06.720 all kinds of evidence that it's a lie and and white people what they've done is said like help 0.99

00:18:13.980 you adopt this christian culture and we're good we don't care what color you are that that is the 0.56

00:18:19.200 true story of america and black people seem to be saying uh you know we don't share those values 0.82

00:18:29.280 everything needs to be based on skin color and and you know we're gonna be tribal based on skin 0.98

00:18:36.540 color while being tribal like africans over in africa that war and destroy uh black people 0.99

00:18:43.820 and white people and so we get the the worst of of all of it we you know black on black crime is 0.98

00:18:52.620 out of control now black on white crime and just the smearing of america and white people it's all 0.95

00:19:00.280 out of control you know what we're experiencing here is no different than what's going on in south 0.61

00:19:05.760 africa uh white people are being targeted by black people out of racial animus and everybody has to

00:19:13.120 sit around and be quiet and pretend like it's not happening i'm not going to pretend anymore and we

00:19:19.140 can't i mean we're taking it all the way back to the carmelo anthony case a 17 year old boy was

00:19:25.820 stabbed in the heart for pushing a kid uh at attract me we pushed and shoved all the time

00:19:35.620 when i was a kid that's what kids do they don't stab each other in the heart and and a guy has

00:19:41.220 stabbed and killed a 17-year-old kid. And somehow he's being turned into the victim by politicians,

00:19:50.120 mainstream television broadcasters and pundits. This is insanity. And we have to stop it.

00:19:59.420 It's awful. It's awful. And it's like, truly, this one's so crazy to me, because it's like,

00:20:04.200 we've almost become, I don't know, inured to cop unleashes fire on a black man. And then we're 0.95

00:20:13.140 going to have riots. We're going to have weeks of media coverage, putting it on a loop. It's

00:20:17.800 going to be misrepresented. And there could even be retaliatory violence like we just saw. But this

00:20:23.700 is this is so bizarre. This is in this case, a black man killed a white man, teenagers. That's 0.98

00:20:30.100 what happened and then was held to account in a criminal court of law by a jury and a judge and

00:20:36.260 a whole trial. I like, how is there retaliatory violence against whites? This is just bizarre.

00:20:43.400 And it's something, something's definitely happening. And I know you're speaking generally,

00:20:46.660 you don't speak about all black people in this way, but there's definitely a collection

00:20:49.920 that's had a very bizarre outsized reaction to this verdict that is showing, shining a light

00:20:58.200 on an underbelly that is dark and disturbing um let me say one last thing and i'm sorry but

00:21:05.060 hey look the indifference to what happened to austin metcalf that's just as sinful as anything 0.97

00:21:12.920 else and so the people that aren't shouting down the idiots and so i i'm not i don't want to paint 0.99

00:21:20.180 a broad brush and obviously there are black people like myself but black culture in general 0.99

00:21:27.280 has been so influenced by the depravity of hip hop 0.97

00:21:32.280 that too many black people are indifferent 0.64

00:21:36.040 about what happened to Austin Metcalf. 0.97

00:21:38.740 And that's just as bad as the people 0.94

00:21:41.880 that are out seeking violence and harming white people 0.96

00:21:47.760 because it's that indifference that's kind of a passive okay. 0.97

00:21:52.640 Well, I get why you did that.

00:21:54.400 I get why Carmelo did that.

00:21:56.040 I get why these women went out and attacked these other white women.

00:22:01.100 The indifference bothers me that everybody isn't screaming at the top of their lungs, hey, there's a problem here. 1.00

00:22:10.440 We can't continue to bathe our kids.

00:22:14.480 Megan, you've got kids.

00:22:16.400 Trust me, the music that you listen to while the child is in your womb, when the child is growing up,

00:22:22.340 It affects their soul and their mentality.

00:22:26.700 And we're letting kids listen to this depraved music.

00:22:30.720 And the point I was making about the West Memphis Three is that, like, white people saw this with heavy metal music and called it out in real time.

00:22:41.320 And they got pushed back and all that other stuff.

00:22:43.920 But they're aware, like, music has an influence that we don't fully understand.

00:22:50.660 And if we're going to allow all this profanity, all this sex talk, and young kids know all the lyrics to this, don't be surprised that when they get to be teenagers, they're participating in teen takeovers and just doing violence and rioting for no reason.

00:23:12.300 Their minds have been groomed for this.

00:23:13.540 No, Jason, you're not the only one saying that.

00:23:15.600 we we've had on dr leonard sacks who is an expert in childhood psychiatry and child rearing he's

00:23:21.880 been he's a worldwide recognized expert in children and their psychology and so on and

00:23:27.920 he has been making a similar point he remember him using just an easy example to remember on

00:23:32.800 our show talking about how um because i said to him jason i'm like those of us who grew up in like

00:23:37.740 the 70s and the 80s we really had no parents so you know like why are you so worried about what's

00:23:44.220 on TV and radio because back then we were raised by TV and radio, you know, like parents didn't pay

00:23:50.720 any attention to us back in those decades. And he said, it's different now because you put yourself

00:23:56.440 in front of the TV or your kid in front of the TV and the radio without you there now. And they're

00:24:00.840 hearing those kinds of messages that you just talked about, you know, about like killing and

00:24:05.660 violence and sex and disrespect for authority figures, including your parents. And the mess,

00:24:11.700 like sort of the babysitter, is very, very different than it was in the 70s when it was

00:24:16.940 like the Brady Bunch and Little House on the Prairie.

00:24:19.960 Father Knows Best.

00:24:20.600 That was the worst you could fall into.

00:24:22.660 Yeah.

00:24:23.100 Yeah.

00:24:23.440 Yeah.

00:24:23.780 He had a good point about it, you know?

00:24:25.520 Yeah.

00:24:25.860 The pop culture actually affirmed the values that you wanted to instill to some degree.

00:24:35.060 Not all of it, but again, I grew up watching Dennis Domenice and Father Knows Best and

00:24:40.180 the Brady Bunch and my three sons yeah my yeah those values were like those are good values that 0.86

00:24:47.340 they're affirming in those shows now all of pop culture is telling you screw your parents screw

00:24:54.360 authority change everything you don't even have just change is good change we can believe all the

00:25:01.120 stuff Obama basically affirmed that if you're changing something that's a good thing well hold

00:25:06.140 on. You know, what if you're Megyn Kelly, and you're beautiful, and the change they want Megyn

00:25:13.980 Kelly to do is, hey, overeat and become 200 pounds. Well, that's not good change. So all change isn't 0.99

00:25:23.680 good. There's some things that were built into America that don't need to be changed, period,

00:25:29.600 end of story um forgive me for bringing up a tough topic but i i think it fits here which is

00:25:38.260 uncle jimmy was murdered i i can't believe this he was your co-host for years you guys came on

00:25:46.180 this show it was during the summer because i remembered i was down at the jersey shore when

00:25:49.800 i was talking to you both watch this what made you say you know what would add to this i i want

00:25:55.480 to bring back jimmy i want a partnership there well you have to remember jimmy uh in how many

00:26:03.440 years ago three years ago jim was still in kansas city kansas he was uh this is a true story yeah he

00:26:11.080 was a uh sergeant i worked in law enforcement for 17 years i was a sergeant in in the sheriff's

00:26:20.040 department in kansas city kansas and and i decided i was going to bring him on to my television show

00:26:26.800 at fox sports uh to play the role of my uncle on my talk show speak for yourself and people thought

00:26:34.780 i was crazy and and people thought i was crazy yeah people well you were crazy so they they were

00:26:41.160 but they thought i was crazy for wanting to do it the guy works in a jail he gonna crack jokes

00:26:46.800 on tv now what are you talking about and so i had to twist arms and beg and eventually they allowed

00:26:54.640 jimmy to come on uh to move out to la and appear on my tv show speak for yourself and he was

00:27:01.480 murdered recently he was only 64 yes what happened jason uh three teenagers black

00:27:12.840 uh i think got into dispute uh with one of jimmy's sons earlier in the day

00:27:20.460 and circled back and shot up uh jimmy's house and jimmy was sitting in his driveway

00:27:29.100 in his car about to run an errand and got shot in the back of the head uh and yeah it's

00:27:37.280 Because the random violence that we talk about all the time and the young kids out of control, unfathered, again, it's like we want to reject the fact that, you know, if 75 percent of your kids are growing up in a home with no father, that's a problem that has to be addressed. 0.99

00:27:58.720 The matriarchy is not going to fix that. 0.93

00:28:02.820 Fathers have to come back into the homes so that there's peace, there's an authority figure, there's someone that is a protector and a provider. 0.98

00:28:14.660 You know, we want to pretend like a single mother can do what two parents can do, and it's just not true.

00:28:22.280 And my parents divorced when I was four or five years old and I was raised primarily up until my senior year of high school in the home with my mother.

00:28:32.020 But my dad was always involved. And then my senior year of high school, I live with my dad.

00:28:36.960 But but I'm under no illusion that, you know, things would have been better had my parents stayed together and that that system produces better fruit than the single parent fruit. 0.68

00:28:48.740 But we can't talk about it because you get called racist or a coon for talking about it, or you hate women, you're sexist or whatever.

00:28:59.580 No, man, I believe the data.

00:29:02.120 I believe the Bible, but I believe the data even more, that two parents do a better job than one parent.

00:29:09.780 Two parents create a better neighborhood and community than neighborhoods dominated by a single parent.

00:29:18.000 It just is what it is, but they've used race to silence us away from just common sense and things that have been proven over thousands of years.

00:29:30.360 We don't have to debate whether two parents are better than one.

00:29:34.640 We've got thousands of years of data that says there's been no society, no great society built that wasn't built on the back of the nuclear family. 0.80

00:29:43.720 uh and so you know i guess we're going to try to be the first and the early results the primaries

00:29:51.180 have been decided it's not going well it's it it's if you want to look at what single parent

00:29:58.940 and the matriarchy can do look at the american black community look at the sat scores look at

00:30:05.200 the incarceration rate look at the teenage pregnancy rates look at all of it the results

00:30:11.260 are in, it doesn't work. Well, I'm very sorry for your loss, Jason. I liked him. He was fun.

00:30:18.080 And I was shocked to hear that news. Yeah, I know. I know. And you guys went way back. I know.

00:30:24.060 Okay. Now we got to get to this controversy in the WNBA with Caitlin Clark. I've been following

00:30:29.940 your coverage. Jason has been analyzing these clips and what's been happening with her on the

00:30:35.740 fever, like the Zapruder films. And I am here for it. That's why we first booked you. I'm like,

00:30:41.760 I want him to walk me through all of this. So I'm just going to lay out what my producers put

00:30:45.980 together just to get the audience up and running. And then you're going to take it. It's, it's so

00:30:51.620 fascinating your take. And I told you've convinced me 100%. All right. So this all started on

00:30:56.260 Wednesday. Well, it started before Wednesday, but the latest chapter started Wednesday when

00:31:01.860 the league released its 30th anniversary poster and we're showing it on the screen right now

00:31:06.520 caitlin clark the league's biggest star she's responsible for huge ratings sold out arenas

00:31:12.040 she's not on it okay and there are recent players on it uh like i think angel reese is on it okay

00:31:17.900 why is she on it and caitlin clark is not on it that's the question some people are suggesting

00:31:22.080 it's because she it's a licensing issue uh that she like that she hasn't allowed that but we

00:31:29.340 haven't heard that from the league itself. And it does seem weird to me that the WNBA wouldn't have

00:31:33.760 permission to use Caitlin Clark's image. So we don't know. All right. Because it's absolutely

00:31:39.280 baffling. But that wound up not even being the biggest controversy on Wednesday, because in

00:31:43.480 Caitlin's game that night against the Phoenix Mercury, Mercury player Alyssa Thomas lodged her

00:31:50.520 fist into Caitlin's neck in a play where no foul was called during the game. We're showing a still

00:31:57.140 of it right now. I'm not a sports expert, but I mean, it does seem like a foul. It seems like a

00:32:04.020 clear foul. Even I can see that. Now the WNBA upgraded the play after the fact, because there

00:32:10.800 was all this outrage after the game, because nothing had been called. It was like, well,

00:32:13.900 how is that not a foul? So then they upgraded it, which they can do after a game has ended,

00:32:17.480 not just to any foul, but to a flagrant two foul. And Thomas got suspended, but just for one game.

00:32:23.760 So many critics are saying, what's that? And she got fined something like a pittance. I think it

00:32:27.320 was a thousand bucks and she makes 1.2 million a year. According to Caitlin's coach, who's going 0.51

00:32:31.960 to play a pivotal role in our discussion with Jason here, that was not the only cheap shot

00:32:36.500 by the Mercury that night. You can see on your screen, a Mercury player fouling Clark on a

00:32:41.760 three-point attempt, not giving her space to land safely, which I'm told you're supposed to do.

00:32:47.560 People who have played basketball say this is exactly the type of play that can lead to a

00:32:51.560 nasty ankle injury, which is why they often call it as a foul, but not in this case.

00:32:56.260 And there are allegations that it's a pattern when it comes to Caitlin Clark, that the league 1.00

00:33:02.340 and its refs allow her to get beaten. I mean, physically beaten, not beaten in the sports

00:33:09.480 lingo, without calling the fouls because they can't stand her. Pretty much everyone hates 0.99

00:33:16.920 caitlin clark in this league she maybe have a couple of friends but everyone hates her and you

00:33:22.980 know there are real questions about why is it just normal professional jealousy is it a race thing

00:33:27.600 is it a sexuality thing because 74 of the league according to some reporters are um well first 0.63

00:33:35.040 black and then some huge portion of them are also gay why does it why do they have to be gay why are 0.89

00:33:40.140 there so many soccer players gay and why are so many basketball players gay with the women i'm 0.99

00:33:44.380 saying. I don't get it. Whatever. But in any event, they hate her. Now, Caitlin, back to this 0.97

00:33:51.340 game in which she got the punch to the throat, she ultimately walked out of the game before it

00:33:58.460 was over. I think it was third quarter. And they said nothing. The announcers weren't talking about

00:34:04.320 it. It was like the biggest player in the league just walked off in the middle of the game. And

00:34:09.180 then they kind of came back up and they were like, oh, it's a back injury. And Jason Whitlock

00:34:14.200 says if you believe that you haven't been paying attention because there is a dynamic that caused

00:34:19.060 caitlin clark to walk off of the court that day and it had in his opinion nothing to do with her

00:34:27.340 back okay take it away my friend so let me there's a bunch of things you said let's the closeout play

00:34:35.900 where the woman uh is contesting caitlin's shot there was a foul called on that and caitlin went

00:34:43.500 to the line and shot three free throws what they didn't review is whether that was a reckless

00:34:49.800 closeout which would have required an additional uh uh five or free throws but there is a foul

00:34:58.320 that's why caitlin clark went to the free throw line and shot three free throws as it relates to

00:35:03.220 the poster you you covered that pretty well in terms of potential licensing issue but what what

00:35:10.440 is left out of that is like hey the WNBA is controlled by this Marxist mindset that hey

00:35:20.820 everybody should get something and and you know we got to share things equitably equally blah blah

00:35:27.600 blah and so Diana Taurasi is widely considered the greatest WNBA player of all time she's white

00:35:36.500 she's not on the poster either and so caitlin clark not being on the poster and this is celebrating

00:35:43.660 30 years of the wnba and there's old players on there there's current players on there the whole

00:35:48.560 nine years the greatest player arguably in wnba history also isn't on the poster and so there may 0.99

00:35:56.980 have been a licensing issue with diana tarasi or it may have just been this stupidity of hey you 0.66

00:36:04.680 know, let's leave Taurasi, let's leave Sue Bird's not on there. Let's leave Caitlin off and let's 0.96

00:36:10.340 showcase these other people because that's what's equitable. And so that's the lunacy. Instead of

00:36:16.040 doing what's best for business, hey, let's put Caitlin Clark on here. She's got the biggest fan 1.00

00:36:21.780 base. They'll be more likely to buy the poster. So those are the first two things I just wanted 0.99

00:36:27.700 to add a little clarity to as it relates to the foul on caitlin clark the fist to the neck area

00:36:37.300 you put it down in slow motion you you put a still photo up and it looks like the worst thing in the

00:36:44.540 world when you watch it in real time if you play caitlin's reaction and how quickly she got up

00:36:52.480 And when she goes back down court and you look at her and look at her facial expressions and body movement, this thing's being exaggerated.

00:37:02.980 And I'll make a very provocative analogy.

00:37:06.380 It's being exaggerated the same way Derek Chauvin on top of George Floyd, greatly exaggerated.

00:37:14.260 Derek Chauvin weighed 150 pounds.

00:37:16.300 It had nothing to do with George Floyd dying. 1.00

00:37:20.860 Now, Alyssa Thomas, the player that did do that, she's a bona fide thug. 1.00

00:37:27.580 There's all kinds of video throughout her career of her being ridiculously physical with her opponents, whether black or white. 1.00

00:37:37.780 She's a rugby— 0.99

00:37:38.520 Yeah, she does seem like a bona fide thug. 1.00

00:37:40.720 Just my own research, I know nothing about the WNBA, but just my own research showed three examples where team coaches were going jihad on her. 1.00

00:37:49.680 Like, what the F with this player who's actively hurting multiple women in the WNBA? 1.00

00:37:55.120 She's got a foul on Angel Reese that's much worse than the Caitlin Clark foul, just for clarity. 0.98

00:38:01.660 But she's a rugby player. 0.99

00:38:03.200 She's unskilled. 1.00

00:38:04.680 Her game is bullying and intimidating everybody. 1.00

00:38:09.520 And that's how she gets buckets. 1.00

00:38:10.860 And that's how she's an effective player. 0.98

00:38:12.700 The Phoenix Mercury, because of Alyssa Thomas, whose wife is on the Phoenix Mercury as well, named Dawana Bonner. 0.70

00:38:24.020 And Dawana Bonner played briefly last year for the Indiana Fever and left and quit and basically forced her way onto the Phoenix team so she could be with her wife, Alyssa Thomas.

00:38:38.380 well they do have a problem with the indiana fever and they do think that intimidating caitlin 0.91

00:38:45.740 clark trying to intimidate there's a white girl on the team named lexi hole they try to intimidate

00:38:51.380 her and they play physical with her all of this is par for the course for elissa thomas and dwana 0.84

00:38:57.400 bonner and the type of thug ball that they play with everybody in the wnba so as it relates to 0.99

00:39:06.580 does caitlin clark get treated unfairly in the wnba yes she did her first two years her rookie 0.99

00:39:16.560 year and last year these players had a real problem with her and they were extra physical

00:39:22.920 with her and the league addressed it this offseason implementing new rules called about

00:39:29.000 freedom of movement and so the rep the games are ref completely different and the players for the

00:39:35.840 most part are completely different because they got a new collective bargaining agreement that is

00:39:41.880 paying them six to ten times more than they were ever making in the wnba and so the the animus 0.98

00:39:50.240 around caitlin clark has dissipated this season other other than the they finally realize she's

00:39:56.540 getting them paid yes and so other than uh the phoenix mercury no one has really messed with 0.80

00:40:03.280 caitlin clark that way players that i saw that used to be extra aggressive aggressive with her

00:40:08.660 they're now joking with her before the game even during the game it's all dissipated but most

00:40:14.920 people have the old narrative from 24 and 25 and they're applying it to what they just saw here

00:40:22.240 and they're also ignoring or they're unaware because most people are passive watchers of the

00:40:30.540 WNBA. They see the highlights. They're just not informed. There's a dynamic between Caitlin Clark

00:40:36.920 and her head coach, Stephanie White. They've been at each other's throats now for two years. 1.00

00:40:44.000 They don't like each other. She's white too. Stephanie, just for the record, is a white woman. 0.99

00:40:47.800 A white woman who, like Caitlin Clark, I'm from Indiana. Stephanie White's one of the greatest

00:40:54.300 high school basketball players in the history of indiana like caitlin clark she went to a home

00:41:00.560 state school purdue and lifted purdue up the way that caitlin clark lifted iowa up stephanie white 1.00

00:41:08.080 led purdue to a national championship then was a first round pick in the wnba didn't have a great 0.99

00:41:14.980 WNBA career but then became a coach in the WNBA and has had some success in the WNBA. She failed 1.00

00:41:24.520 as a college coach at Vanderbilt. She's returned to the WNBA, had a little bit of success and

00:41:30.900 previously coached this Alyssa Thomas thug and, you know, co-signed that style of basketball. 0.98

00:41:37.740 The other thing about Stephanie White, like Caitlin Clark, she came out of college with a longtime boyfriend who she married and transitioned while in the WNBA to the alternative lifestyle.

00:41:54.460 And she is now married to Lisa Salters, the ESPN sideline reporter, black woman.

00:42:03.920 and so she's married to a black woman lisa salters and there are people like me that are

00:42:12.360 following this closely it's like they want to convert and transition caitlin clark and stephanie

00:42:18.880 white may be a part of that they have similar black grounds you know they were because stephanie

00:42:24.780 white in her playing days and even now is a relatively attractive woman and she was an 0.97

00:42:29.840 attractive young athlete that had a boyfriend got married blah blah same caitlin clark track same

00:42:35.400 deal as caitlin clark and they are at odds over style of play and and if you really watch what 1.00

00:42:43.860 happened thursday five minutes into the third quarter caitlin clark had a bad play through the 0.99

00:42:52.000 ball turnover didn't hustle back on defense and gave up an easy layup stephanie white hops out 0.95

00:42:59.320 of her chair and angrily calls a timeout the coaches go and huddle the players are sitting

00:43:06.500 on the bench and there's fans have sent me videos of like I was in the arena here's what happened

00:43:13.660 you can see it for yourself that Caitlin Clark is sitting on the bench with the other five players

00:43:19.320 that are in the game and she's planning to go back into the game Stephanie White eventually

00:43:25.300 comes into the huddle, points at the backup point guard, Raven Johnson, and replaces Caitlin Clark 1.00

00:43:32.640 five minutes into the third quarter. This is like, you don't do this to your best player.

00:43:39.020 You don't do this to virtually any starter. We're only five minutes into the third. Why am I getting

00:43:43.380 pulled out? And Caitlin Clark, you can see by her body language, there's no her talking to a

00:43:51.260 trainer about my back there's no informing not wincing she's not holding back she's not like

00:43:56.880 bending over the way we all would you know we everyone's had a little back pain here or there 0.97

00:44:01.500 there's katie clark standing there yeah and when she walks fine yes and when she walks away 0.99

00:44:07.820 it looks like it looks like but it's not accurate two trainers are following her when she walks

00:44:15.500 away but if if this is the right video you'll see the trainers uh like the woman with the ponytail

00:44:23.160 yep she circles and takes a seat behind the bench she does not continue to follow caitlin clark

00:44:29.260 so caitlin clark the best player in the league the biggest draw in the league allegedly has a

00:44:35.680 back injury but she's getting no attention from the trainers she's just walking back into the

00:44:41.380 arena and and then for the next 12 minutes of real time not game time but just real time

00:44:50.420 the broadcast crew never addresses where is caitlin clark she's not on the bench she's not

00:44:57.560 on the court they're not and and megan you and i know that 12 minutes of tv time might as well be

00:45:03.800 12 hours you don't leave some issue unaddressed for 12 minutes and why people they're playing the

00:45:09.800 game you're giving the the audience no explanation the biggest star the reason why you're watching

00:45:14.920 the game has disappeared and we're not telling you that she's disappeared we're not trying to

00:45:21.080 even attempt to find out why she's disappeared someone had clearly told the broadcast team

00:45:26.900 we don't know why caitlin clark has disappeared we don't want you to address it and so it wasn't

00:45:33.060 really until the start of the fourth quarter that they came out with this weak explanation of caitlin

00:45:39.020 clark won't return it's a back injury and then they show an edited video of caitlin leaving

00:45:45.580 and and paint you can see her grimace you can't see her grimace they're just lying

00:45:51.000 and so the story bottom line for us like what so why what like to me you're telling me she had a

00:45:58.920 hissy fit and took her ball and went home because she wasn't getting played like this is an example 1.00

00:46:04.320 of Caitlyn behaving like a spoiled brat yes because she is and most players with her talent 0.67

00:46:13.300 are most players with her talent and success and what she did at Iowa and it has to be coached out 0.96

00:46:20.840 of them and that is where I'll defend Stephanie White to some degree she's trying to coach the 0.88

00:46:27.520 brattiness out of caitlin clark caitlin loves to uh cheerlead on the court she loves to tell the 0.99

00:46:34.980 crowd what to do and she loves to tell the officials what to do and this has been going

00:46:40.500 on since high school and college uh you her dad would be at iowa games and they show him on camera

00:46:47.620 telling caitlin hey shut up and you know mind her own this is just part of a personality quirk that

00:46:53.920 caitlin clark has doesn't make her the worst person in the world it makes her a person that 1.00

00:46:58.540 needs some correction and she's getting it from someone she doesn't respect stephanie white 0.95

00:47:04.920 they're at each other's throats and caitlin clark walked out she'd had enough walked off and you

00:47:13.100 know bad explanation they eventually concoct after 12 minutes of trying to figure out what to say 0.66

00:47:18.840 But no one wants to talk about that dynamic because they just want to talk about Alyssa Thomas and Caitlyn, you know, stabbed her. 1.00

00:47:30.140 These hens, like it's like, OK, a lot of drama with these ladies.

00:47:35.200 It's a little much for me. 0.99

00:47:36.940 But you convinced me because on one of your shows earlier in June, you showed the moment.

00:47:44.240 It was after a June 10th game.

00:47:46.120 We pulled it from these are clips we got from you.

00:47:48.840 and your show, June 8th, sorry, there was a game.

00:47:52.460 And first, I'm going to do what you did,

00:47:53.980 which is show Caitlin Clark's game-winning shot,

00:47:57.740 which was over the Washington Mystics.

00:48:00.620 Thanks to this shot, they won.

00:48:02.240 Here, let's watch it.

00:48:03.420 Here we go. 1.00

00:48:05.260 She's running. 0.80

00:48:06.520 There we go. 0.99

00:48:07.080 She's got the ball.

00:48:08.080 It's a three. 0.67

00:48:09.460 It goes in.

00:48:10.280 It's beautiful.

00:48:10.940 They win.

00:48:11.920 Okay, so this should be a huge moment.

00:48:15.700 Doesn't look that huge.

00:48:17.140 She's kind of walking around.

00:48:18.840 All right. Doesn't exactly look like, you know, when the Knicks won.

00:48:22.440 And then you found this video of her walking by her coach, Stephanie White, which you would expect them both to be jubilant.

00:48:30.380 But here's what's happening. She walks by. It's a low. It's a low high five.

00:48:35.140 She barely she doesn't know. I look at her.

00:48:38.700 No eye contact from either one. Yeah, that's that's pretty good evidence, I would say that that they don't they don't like each other.

00:48:46.980 there's another incident you showed where, um, then so, so that Caitlin got, uh, that they called 0.70

00:48:54.940 a foul on Caitlin that you showed and you said it was a bullshit call. Caitlin actually didn't

00:49:00.980 foul anybody. It was like, they shouldn't have called this. And then Stephanie White, the coach

00:49:05.360 got interviewed at halftime in the spot where we would have expected Caitlin Clark to be giving

00:49:10.720 the interview you pointed out on your show. So it's kind of odd that the coach took over the

00:49:14.020 interview. But OK, so what does she do? Does she say that was a bullshit call? Caitlin did nothing 0.86

00:49:19.960 wrong. These refs are out of control. No, this is what she says in SOT 19. Fouls are frustrating. 1.00

00:49:26.480 What are you going to tell your group just to adjust to that this next half, but not lose

00:49:29.980 their physicality? We've got to be disciplined. We've got to be more disciplined. I mean,

00:49:32.640 we're fouling when it's unnecessary because we're in poor position to start.

00:49:36.680 So she basically threw her under the bus, Jason. So why doesn't she like Caitlin? 0.85

00:49:41.980 they are uh look I'm sorry for saying this Megan they're women they don't support each other 1.00

00:49:53.640 and they compete with each other they compete with each other and so Stephanie White was 0.93

00:50:00.380 Caitlin Clark 20 some odd years ago and again she was the hometown hero and uh there's some 0.98

00:50:09.780 jealousy and look there's a player that she that stephanie white can't get to submit to her style

00:50:18.220 of play uh and that's where caitlin clark is right that stephanie white style of play doesn't work 0.99

00:50:24.500 for caitlin clark it's not the right style and caitlin clark won't buy in and so they just 1.00

00:50:31.560 dislike each other uh as and they're competing with each other and and stephanie white thinks

00:50:38.640 look you know I could have been you or I was you and I know what you should do and Caitlin Clark 0.96

00:50:45.340 saying now with that stupid style of play you're talking about and you know Lisa I'm sure Caitlin 0.98

00:50:50.140 thinks Lisa Bluter was a better coach than her and they just the Indiana Fever have surrounded 0.99

00:50:56.820 Caitlin Clark with the wrong people including the head coach they haven't managed a superstar it's

00:51:05.300 It's like there was a very, very beautiful, young, smart lady that was on this news station that she was a superstar.

00:51:15.980 And they just didn't know how to manage her at Fox News. 0.53

00:51:19.840 And she had to go independent to really, really succeed.

00:51:24.900 Fox?

00:51:25.880 Fox did okay.

00:51:27.140 I'm not sure about the next place.

00:51:28.800 Well, all right, NBC. 0.95

00:51:30.120 They just didn't know how to manage her.

00:51:32.620 And she had to go independent.

00:51:34.320 I'm sure you can relate to that.

00:51:35.800 You've heard that story before, haven't you?

00:51:38.520 Yeah, I will say it's a lot easier to go independent as a news anchor

00:51:41.800 than I think it is as a basketball player.

00:51:44.080 But that's the business she's chosen.

00:51:46.320 So good luck to them all.

00:51:48.040 Honestly, these are some of the reasons why I don't watch the WNBA.

00:51:51.760 I don't really watch any sports.

00:51:52.740 But I do watch Jason Whitlock, and all of you should too.

00:51:56.620 Because honestly, your breakdowns of these games have been so entertaining.

00:52:01.240 I'm here for it.

00:52:02.320 Thank you, my friend.

00:52:02.940 Great to see you.

00:52:03.540 Thank you.

00:52:05.020 All right.

00:52:05.620 Up next, what CBS News is now reporting about who the first ransom note in the Nancy Guthrie

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00:54:08.340 All right, full-time thoughts.

00:54:09.880 Craig, who stood out?

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00:54:40.960 We're going to get into the latest on the Nancy Guthrie investigation in just a moment,

00:54:44.460 but we have got breaking news out of the UK and the Henry Novak case that we have got to show you.

00:54:49.720 A jury last month found Vikram Digwa guilty of murdering 18-year-old Henry.

00:54:55.920 He was sentenced to life in prison with a minimum of 21 years that must be served.

00:55:02.620 Now, prosecutors are appealing that, saying the sentence is too lenient.

00:55:07.020 I mean, it's very rare for prosecutors to have to appeal saying the sentence is too lenient,

00:55:11.520 but they're doing that here because while a life sentence sounds real,

00:55:15.520 the 21-year minimum is concerning, and they're apparently concerned that it actually will be

00:55:22.940 all he serves, which would clearly not be enough for what this guy did.

00:55:29.560 This is because Digwa clearly lied about Novak racially attacking him. He let him die and bleed

00:55:36.680 out on the street, saying to police that Henry had attacked him based on his race, the fact that

00:55:42.900 he's a Sikh. And Henry was bleeding out steps away. He let that happen. He tried to hide from

00:55:50.940 authorities that he was the one who had stabbed Henry in their fatal encounter over and over and

00:55:57.640 over again, as Henry had tried to run away from this maniac and was getting stabbed in the back

00:56:04.440 of the legs. Now, we've detailed many of Digwa's lies about the case on the show previously. We've

00:56:10.200 even showed you all the falsehoods that his brother made in his 999 call.

00:56:15.040 That's the UK's version of 9-1-1.

00:56:16.640 We have real questions about why the brother is not under arrest, seriously.

00:56:21.080 But now we have Digwa himself, the actual murderer on tape in police body cam footage

00:56:28.180 that has just been obtained by the BBC and put out on their website.

00:56:32.200 This is Vikram Digwa, the one who had repeatedly stabbed Henry.

00:56:37.100 Well, as you watch this, you keep that in mind.

00:56:38.700 He had just repeatedly stabbed him. Here he is directly telling the police that Henry Novak

00:56:46.260 racially attacked him, which is a lie. Again, zero, zero proof of that.

00:56:52.440 As Henry is steps away receiving CPR. Watch.

00:56:58.020 The gentleman that's on the floor with my son.

00:57:01.060 And then I do me. Don't record me.

00:57:02.880 he pushed my turban off my head

00:57:07.020 started grabbing my ankle and hair 0.94

00:57:08.440 so on the seat 0.93

00:57:08.980 and he started grabbing on my hair

00:57:10.900 started dragging me around

00:57:11.920 and obviously from there

00:57:13.280 then obviously altercations happened

00:57:15.020 my brother's only seen it

00:57:16.380 stopped it

00:57:16.820 and that's when he then started

00:57:18.060 stumbling around

00:57:18.780 started climbing around

00:57:19.700 all these sort of bits and bobs

00:57:20.720 and stuff like that

00:57:21.360 so literally I saw him from there

00:57:23.280 from the get-go from there

00:57:24.260 I saw look

00:57:24.860 mate you clearly are

00:57:26.220 obviously drunk

00:57:26.980 I said to him

00:57:27.460 carry on with your day

00:57:28.280 he said that

00:57:29.180 and then he started

00:57:29.780 just escalating the situation

00:57:31.540 call me and all this sort of stuff. And this isn't the first time we've had something like this

00:57:35.400 happening. Again, we've lived here for, since I've been four or five. Okay. So that's him saying,

00:57:42.260 um, he grabbed me by the turban. I said, you're clearly drunk by the way, Henry wasn't. Um,

00:57:46.880 and then he called me and they bleeped it out there, but it was, it's the, the, I get,

00:57:51.640 I guess it's just as offensive in the UK as the N word is over here. P A K I. And, um,

00:57:58.000 he said that's what he was called by henry a lie lies all lies he didn't grab you by the turban

00:58:04.980 he wasn't drunk and he didn't call you that word i says like these are all lies um in the next

00:58:11.700 clip digua finds time to complain about the police lights which he finds slightly irritating to his

00:58:16.900 eyes and declines to tell the authorities that henry novak is bleeding out at this very moment

00:58:22.660 because the cpr is not going to save him you see he's bleeding to death internally because you

00:58:28.380 stabbed him watch this especially in that moment

00:58:32.480 turn the flashes off sorry we can't remember right

00:58:39.520 over here then so it's not too much in my eyesight so this is when he was going to

00:58:44.200 got me in the face a few good times as well where do you live sir

00:58:48.000 Okay, so you've had an altercation with this guy?

00:58:53.740 Yeah.

00:58:59.340 This isn't the first time we've had altercations during, not even altercations, we've had people

00:59:03.500 racially attack us during the morning.

00:59:05.800 My hair started grabbing my hair or started punching me and all this sort of stuff.

00:59:09.140 Okay.

00:59:09.600 And then I'll...

00:59:10.600 Do you know how he's got that wound then?

00:59:12.640 How's he got that wound?

00:59:13.340 What wound, sorry?

00:59:14.180 Well, you said he's got blood on him.

00:59:16.320 How's he...

00:59:17.300 It must have been when we punched him, but he did fall over here.

00:59:19.600 So he was climbing all over these bins and stuff like that.

00:59:22.160 And then he fell over and then landed onto that car.

00:59:24.960 Okay.

00:59:27.360 Must have been when we punched him.

00:59:30.100 That's why he's bleeding.

00:59:31.980 He knows full well. 0.90

00:59:34.220 He has stabbed him five times. 0.99

00:59:37.300 He stabbed him. 0.92

00:59:39.300 He's bleeding to death.

00:59:41.360 The time codes would later show us that Henry had stopped breathing 13 minutes prior to that.

00:59:46.100 he he's dying he's possibly dead and here he's still misleading the police officer

00:59:53.520 here we see the police officer telling digua he's going to be arrested oh and by the way before i

00:59:59.100 move on in that clip also you heard digua going on about how he's been multiply he's been he's

01:00:03.860 been attacked multiple times racial attacks multiple times um this is where he got me in

01:00:09.700 the face several times playing the victim we've been we've had racial attacks before he goes on

01:00:15.080 sure sure you have you've been perpetrating them because there's absolutely no reason

01:00:21.240 to this moment to understand why you attacked and killed henry novak

01:00:24.580 other than possibly his race and your own grievance um again all lies bought hook line

01:00:32.580 and sinker by the police as henry lay dying here we're going to see the officer telling digua that

01:00:37.060 he's going to be arrested on suspicion of attempted murder but notice one thing digua

01:00:42.100 not handcuffed watch okay mate right this is really important okay um the time now is

01:00:50.720 11 55 okay it's important mate all right at this time i'm arresting you on suspicion

01:00:57.200 of attack murder okay do you have to say anything may harm your defense if you don't mention when

01:01:01.860 question something you may like to rely on anything you do so maybe given evidence okay

01:01:06.340 the necessities are for a prompt and effective investigation okay and uh uh for any further

01:01:11.300 harm and injury you've got your side of the story mate we don't know what's going on here

01:01:14.520 okay so we need to find out okay

01:01:17.120 starting short what's going on here i've gone nine for attempt murder with the gentleman that i've

01:01:29.860 run through have we got a van at all that i can get him down to central

01:01:34.840 yeah and indeed it would be actual murder not attempted because henry died

01:01:43.460 and as the video ends digua again repeats the lie that novak racially attacked him watch

01:01:50.980 okay and we'll get it all sorted all right i'm not saying you've done anything mate but we need

01:01:55.560 to find out what's happened okay i've been i know i know okay i know we don't know what's going on

01:02:02.340 the video captions read he does not finish his sentence the police officer he's he's about to

01:02:15.780 give an update on henry and based on the bbc's reporting we we now know it took police eight

01:02:20.640 minutes to find henry's stab wounds just one of them the one into his lung took them eight minutes

01:02:28.320 they reportedly took off his clothing once they realized that there could be and obviously had

01:02:34.500 been catastrophic injuries and were apparently shocked shocked to see him bleeding out

01:02:40.780 um it's all because they believed this man and his brother and their false claims from the moment

01:02:48.460 they arrived on scene and while they found and there was testimony that the police really

01:02:56.840 couldn't have done anything to save Henry. He was too catastrophically injured. So even if they had

01:03:02.960 noticed that he'd been bleeding out and that he'd been repeatedly stabbed from the second they got

01:03:07.700 there, that they probably couldn't have saved his life. I guess we'll never know. Moreover,

01:03:13.720 what happened in Henry's last moments was he was treated like a criminal. He was handcuffed.

01:03:18.740 He was dismissed. His complaints that he'd been stabbed were ignored and argued with and overruled

01:03:26.380 by that same police officer. We heard talking to Vikram Digwa, his murderer. So he was ignored.

01:03:32.720 He wasn't believed. He was in clear distress. It was overlooked. And Vikram Digwa was believed

01:03:40.440 hook, line and sinker. Everything he said was believed. It was accepted until Henry died.

01:03:45.200 And then they started to reevaluate and ultimately had to arrest him without even putting cuffs on 1.00

01:03:51.860 him because, you know, he was a racial minority. That's what it came down to. They in the UK have 1.00

01:03:59.740 been operating under these principles for quite some time, for quite some time. We've covered

01:04:04.940 the rapes of the young girls there, the white girls for the most part by Muslim immigrants 0.99

01:04:10.880 didn't pay any attention to it. In fact, it actively worked to cover it up for years 0.99

01:04:16.440 because of skin color, because of racial sensitivities, possibly religious sensitivities.

01:04:22.300 It's absurd. Crime is crime. It can be done by either race, any race against another.

01:04:29.820 And these these cops in the UK walked right into this thing, primed to believe the Vikram

01:04:37.360 Digwas of the world and to see the Henry Novaks as the bad guys. I don't even know what it's going

01:04:43.540 to take to read revisit this to to to eliminate this it's it's henry's death and the embarrassment

01:04:51.840 they faced it's not enough that's they're not going to change this is like this is a sick

01:04:57.040 ideological perversion of the mind that like we need a whole new generation to come into policing

01:05:05.260 in the uk and and replace these people because this is just it's too dangerous right now

01:05:10.200 for young white men in particular. 0.82

01:05:14.880 That tape is embarrassing.

01:05:16.680 It's yet another black eye for the police

01:05:19.120 and the system that allowed this.

01:05:22.360 And I agree with them, the prosecutors,

01:05:24.320 they should pursue that 21-year minimum

01:05:25.880 because it should be much, much higher.

01:05:27.100 That guy and his brother and the mother,

01:05:31.080 let's not forget she hid the murder knife

01:05:32.560 and she was found guilty of doing that too.

01:05:35.480 So, I mean, it's a criminal family

01:05:37.040 that's been getting away with their lies over and over again? Who knows how many other people

01:05:43.760 they've hurt? I really I'd love somebody should be doing a deep dive on that in the UK press right

01:05:48.200 now. What other cases have they been involved in? Have they brought any civil suits? What is

01:05:52.920 their story, Ben? I'd love to know because they seem to be pathological to me. Poor Henry and

01:05:58.960 poor Henry's family. At last, the truth is known. The body cams show exactly how negligent the

01:06:05.880 police were and how biased they were. And, um, you know, it's, it's not unlike what we talked

01:06:14.020 about with Jason Whitlock. Like it's some sort of a sickness. It's like a mind sickness around

01:06:18.160 the issue of race and minority, you know? And my only question is as, you know, whites head into 0.87

01:06:25.660 the minority, because we will be in the UK and here in the next 15 years or so, um, is it going

01:06:34.080 to work the other way? Is there going to be a benefit of the doubt you get when the minority 0.90

01:06:39.880 is white and you happen to be a white person? I somehow I doubt it. By the way, speaking of our 0.63

01:06:45.620 talk with Jason, it just broke that Caitlin Clark is not going to play this Saturday saying that her

01:06:51.400 back injury is still preventing her from being out there. Is it her back injury or is it her

01:06:57.240 quiet punishment from her coach for quitting the game as Jason theorizes? No proof of that,

01:07:03.740 just his opinion, but she didn't look like she was in a lot of pain in that one video.

01:07:09.120 In any event, that's the update from the UK. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to come

01:07:13.400 back and we're going to talk about the latest in the Nancy Guthrie case because we just found out

01:07:18.440 that Harvey Levin just got another note from the man who claims he knows who the kidnapper is

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01:08:53.080 that's b-y-r-n-a dot com. There are several breaking updates in the search for Nancy Guthrie

01:09:02.120 today. TMZ's Harvey Levin getting a new email from the person who claims he knows the identities of

01:09:08.900 Nancy's abductors. Okay, this is this person confusing, but just stay with me. There were

01:09:16.380 two so-called ransom notes by the person the FBI apparently reportedly claims was the real

01:09:24.220 abductor that went first to Harvey Levin at, well, to TMZ and a bunch of local Tucson news stations.

01:09:31.840 That was right after Nancy was taken, the first week. The second week after Nancy was taken,

01:09:37.580 Harvey Levin at TMZ started to receive other emails from some dude, would you just call him

01:09:44.960 the friend of the kidnapper. This is just made up. We, we, we have no idea whether he knows

01:09:49.860 the actual kidnapper or not, or whether they're friends. It's just a good short form.

01:09:55.360 The friend of the kidnapper saying, I know who has her, suggesting it was multiple to two people

01:10:01.740 suggesting though not explicitly that it may have been South of the border, but they had her

01:10:06.560 and suggesting he had seen her. Um, virtually everybody we've had on things that that guy is

01:10:11.400 bullshit and many if not most think that the first notes are bullshit too but they appear 0.84

01:10:19.200 though it's not confirmed this is also not unknown that they appear to be different people 0.99

01:10:23.880 writing the notes the first two notes 100 are connected you know demanding ransom and then we

01:10:31.280 heard earlier this week the second one was more like she died sorry those two definitely included

01:10:37.600 the same identifying information and reportedly the same Bitcoin address account because the

01:10:46.700 authorities were satisfied it was the same person. And this new guy, he keeps asking for Bitcoin to

01:10:52.540 reveal his information too, and continues to put the same Bitcoin account in all of his

01:10:58.200 correspondence. Although Harvey says in this latest one, he changed the Bitcoin demand or the

01:11:03.580 the account, but made a reference to the one he'd been using just to prove it was the same guy.

01:11:09.320 Now, this guy, this time, the friend of the kidnapper, is claiming that he has footage

01:11:16.180 of Nancy and the main kidnapper. Again, intimating that there's more than one. He's got actual video

01:11:23.200 footage of Nancy. Okay. Plus CBS News, in a separate matter, is now also reporting that

01:11:29.640 the first ransom note ever sent in this case was addressed directly to Savannah. Now that's the

01:11:37.280 first we've heard that. Remember that came in again, as I said, to TMZ and also to local news

01:11:42.220 stations and had demands. They haven't said a lot about that one specifically because that that's

01:11:47.960 the mother load right there. That's the one. If this really is the real dude, this is the email

01:11:53.420 that made them believe that.

01:11:55.120 It's the one that allegedly described what Nancy was wearing,

01:12:00.560 described the location of her phone,

01:12:03.040 sorry, her Apple Watch,

01:12:04.980 and also, what's the third thing?

01:12:09.760 Described the floodlight on the outside,

01:12:11.380 the broken floodlight on the outside of the home.

01:12:13.580 And now this is the first we've heard

01:12:15.640 that that note was sent directly,

01:12:18.460 it was addressed directly to Savannah,

01:12:20.720 CBS News reporting. Do we have that actually? Yeah, here it is. Here's CBS Evening News reporter

01:12:28.620 Jonathan Vigliotti reporting this. SOT 51. The note was the second of two that investigators

01:12:35.660 believe were sent by the same person in the days following Nancy Guthrie's disappearance,

01:12:40.920 February 1st. Sources tell CBS News the first note was written directly to Savannah,

01:12:45.920 reading in part, hello, Savannah, we have your mother, Nancy. The message included a ransom

01:12:51.960 demand and described the exact location of Nancy's Apple Watch inside her bedroom,

01:12:57.520 a detail investigators never made public. Chilling. Joining me now, James Fitzgerald.

01:13:05.280 He is a former supervisory special agent for the FBI. He's now the co-host of the Cold Red

01:13:10.280 podcast. And for the first time on the show, John Kelly. John's a veteran criminal profiler

01:13:15.380 and psychotherapist. His profiling expertise has been used in well-known cases, such as the Green

01:13:20.300 River Killer. That case involved a serial killer who was convicted of murdering 48 women. He also

01:13:26.100 helped contribute to the solving of the Golden State Killer in 2018, helping find a man who had

01:13:31.260 committed 13 murders across the state of California. James, John, thank you both so much for being here

01:13:36.560 with us today. And John, welcome to the program. Thank you so much for having me, Megan. Thank you.

01:13:42.120 Annie Kelly is a friend of mine.

01:13:45.540 And you know what?

01:13:47.740 Our cousin, Mr. Fitzgerald, there, he's all right.

01:13:51.200 That's right.

01:13:52.000 Basically, you're figuring out my whole method for how people get booked on this show.

01:13:55.780 Maureen O'Connell.

01:13:57.040 I mean, I've got my quiet litmus test.

01:14:00.680 Okay, let's talk about this.

01:14:01.980 So, James, I haven't heard from you since we learned the details of the second note.

01:14:09.980 note okay we'll get to harvey and that news in a minute but i want to prioritize the actual news

01:14:14.480 about the possible real kidnapper and i'm only saying that's not my judgment that's just 0.93

01:14:19.800 savannah thinks those first two notes were real and i know savannah she's very smart she's a

01:14:26.920 lawyer herself and i'm telling you there's no way savannah thinks those two notes are real

01:14:31.360 if the fbi has told her they don't think that they're real like they they i believe the fbi

01:14:37.020 told her we think they're probably authentic and that's why she believes it because i just don't

01:14:40.460 think she would deviate from what the fbi is telling her she would realize she didn't have

01:14:44.200 the expertise um so and and harvey levin is reporting that the fbi told him they believe

01:14:50.960 those first two notes are real meaning from the real abductor slash kidnapper that doesn't mean

01:14:56.280 they are they're just saying we're distinguishing between those two and all the rest well what we

01:15:01.580 learned earlier this week is what the second note from the so-called real abductor actually had in

01:15:08.820 it. Howard Bloom had some exclusive reporting on it that set off a firestorm of reporters who

01:15:14.620 had apparently known and been sitting on it to tell us what exactly was in there.

01:15:19.680 The best summary I've heard is from Brianna Whitney. She now works as a crime reporter

01:15:26.380 for Crime Junkie, which is a podcast. But at the time, like up until recently, she worked for

01:15:31.660 the sister news outlet of KOLD, the one that received both notes. And she said in that

01:15:42.080 capacity, she actually had eyes on both notes, that she's read them both. And here is how she

01:15:48.060 described the contents of the second note, which I'd love to get your thoughts on. It's not 52.

01:15:53.100 I have spent months and months covering the Nancy Guthrie case, boots on the ground.

01:15:58.280 And in my former role, before I came to Crime Junkie, I was made aware of what these ransom notes said as I was reporting on the case.

01:16:05.120 I've seen them with my own eyes.

01:16:06.340 So I want to actually provide more context as to what that second note said.

01:16:11.040 The way that this note was written, it's written as we, like we didn't know this, as if it was some sort of team or whoever was involved in this.

01:16:19.280 It said, we did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical condition.

01:16:24.360 It went on to say that they never intended to hurt her during all of this.

01:16:28.760 They continued and said, she perished shortly after she was taken.

01:16:33.560 They believe that it was heart related.

01:16:35.460 And then what the reports were confirming earlier today, that she was buried with nature.

01:16:40.040 And maybe the most important part of the second ransom note, it said,

01:16:44.100 nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome.

01:16:47.560 We are truly sorry.

01:16:48.760 But your thoughts, Fitz?

01:16:53.800 Along with being, first of all, Megan, great to be back with you.

01:16:56.720 Along with being a criminal profiler, I'm also a forensic linguist.

01:17:00.120 And I cut my teeth on the Unabomb case, got my master's degree at Georgetown after that.

01:17:04.940 So I've been dealing mostly with language in cases, you know, since the mid-90s.

01:17:10.380 And I've helped, you know, resolve a bunch of them to identify anonymous authors, whatever.

01:17:14.480 And the first thing I always want to understand when looking at something like this, we're using the word note you did and the reporter that you showed.

01:17:23.860 I think what we're describing, that was an email, correct?

01:17:28.180 Well, all I know is that in the case of TMZ, they were uploading it on the tips website part of the team.

01:17:39.160 You know, so like that was one of the ways that they were reportedly masking who they were is like you go on there and you upload it and it's unidentifiable.

01:17:48.240 So I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I know the friend, the friend notes are being described by Harvey as as emails.

01:17:57.100 As for the original one and two, those I don't know.

01:18:00.940 All right. And the content is what we would be looking at here.

01:18:04.100 But the question is, I would still want to know how they are being transmitted, how they are winding up.

01:18:08.820 This would have been so, so easy for the kidnappers, and I use that word loosely here, from day one, from night one, to leave some kind of a note on the table.

01:18:20.000 We have your mother.

01:18:21.100 We want money.

01:18:22.020 We'll call you or this Bitcoin account, whatever they would set up.

01:18:25.980 You know, there are so few kidnappings for ransom in this country.

01:18:30.500 I mean, legitimate kidnapping for ransom.

01:18:32.680 We've been over this before, Megan.

01:18:34.000 I know.

01:18:34.700 But it's just so rare.

01:18:36.300 lindberg frank sinatra jr you know sydney riso in the early 90s and uh exxon executive they are so

01:18:43.180 rare and then now we have these notes which may be posts which may be emails and all we're getting

01:18:48.940 is snippets so it's hard for me as a forensic linguist i in the back in the day when i was

01:18:53.260 working cases in the bureau i would have the entire message including with uh you know every case

01:18:58.940 daniel pearl dc sniper in fact in dc sniper i'll never forget there was a leak because some

01:19:04.300 journalists had a source and in the tarot card they repeated the words i am god where i happened

01:19:12.300 to see the tarot card the actual one it said call me god a big difference it's a reference to a

01:19:18.940 movie with a sniper who went by the nickname of god power of life and death so i want to be careful

01:19:23.980 that we don't necessarily know the exact language in these notes in these posts in these emails

01:19:28.940 whatever they are but having said all that um i am still highly skeptical of their provenance

01:19:35.340 of their of their validity of their legitimacy and i would say this you know the investigators

01:19:40.380 would be remiss not to follow up on them go through all the you know computer analysis they

01:19:45.260 can do to find out where these are originating whatever look at language features i hope there's

01:19:49.740 a forensic linguist within the bureau or someone they've contracted to come in and look at the

01:19:53.820 actual raw language contained therein maybe that could help male female uh you know native speaker

01:20:00.220 of english or not you know did the dollar sign go before or after the number all things that

01:20:04.940 would be indication of a european possibly so there's so much they may have there but i see no

01:20:10.380 reason at this point in time for new notes or whatever we're calling them to be coming in and

01:20:15.260 and this person i'll leave it at this for now this person is really taking a risk saying i know who

01:20:20.940 did it i know their names addresses and ages and just send me this i don't know if he still wants

01:20:27.100 the one bitcoin or not i'm confused about that part but he does all right which i think is sixty

01:20:31.740 one thousand dollars i just looked it up usd us currency and uh not a whole lot of money it'd be

01:20:38.140 a nice quick payday for him the family wouldn't have to be putting you know all that much out

01:20:42.460 but this this doesn't hold water for me again investigators i'm talking to you now you have to

01:20:48.540 to follow through in this. I get it. But I don't put a whole lot of weight in this. What's the

01:20:52.860 purpose at this point in time with something new? And to, of all places, TMZ, nothing against those

01:20:58.380 guys there. Send it directly to the family, which allegedly the first note went to, or the FBI.

01:21:04.680 But a cell phone hidden somewhere, it's almost like some kind of Dungeons and Dragons game being

01:21:09.880 played at this point. And I think it's by an opportunist. What do you think? I'd love to get

01:21:15.080 your thoughts overall, John, but can I just ask you specifically first about that news that that

01:21:20.120 first alleged ransom note was directed to Savannah specifically? Well, I have a whole I have a really

01:21:28.140 hard time with it. I mean, I can understand them using Savannah's name. But, you know, as soon as

01:21:35.980 they make this privy to the press in the way they did, I mean, man, you've got everybody standing

01:21:44.220 to attention every law enforcement agent in the area and around the country and i just uh i just

01:21:52.340 don't i don't really get with it i understand you know we know where the watch was we've described

01:21:58.580 where the watch was uh we're talking about the light outside you know and uh it having a problem

01:22:06.240 we're describing her pajamas but i really really or the clothes they said she left with i mean i

01:22:14.200 really have a problem with the whole thing it's either an extremely unsophisticated guy 0.97

01:22:21.160 an extremely stupid kind of guy but as far as being a professional kidnapper or have 0.99

01:22:28.860 done kidnappings in the past i would certainly say no way no i mean that this guy's dripping 1.00

01:22:35.960 of a rookie, you know, dripping of stupid rookie as far as I'm concerned. 1.00

01:22:42.600 Why? Because of the tape on the porch? 1.00

01:22:45.220 I'm sorry?

01:22:46.800 Why? What draws, what leads you there?

01:22:50.080 Well, I mean, there's just no sophistication here. I mean, why would you tell the world?

01:22:55.680 You know, it's like Jim was kind of talking about, you know, if you want to do a kidnapping

01:22:59.940 or something, you want to get the person, and they're really not a person to you, they're an

01:23:05.220 object they're an object for money you've objectified them so you're going to grab that

01:23:10.220 person take that person as quick as you can you're not going to spend 40 some minutes in the house

01:23:14.740 and you're going to take off with that person you're going to already have it set up how you're

01:23:20.480 going to make contact you're going to try and make contact in the most private way you possibly can

01:23:26.320 because you don't want other people involved and you're going to try and lower your risk if you're

01:23:31.780 professional and you have some sophistication

01:23:34.000 that you've been around.

01:23:35.860 And I see none of this here.

01:23:37.820 I see, like, somebody

01:23:39.640 on a billboard broadcasting

01:23:41.440 all over the place. Hey,

01:23:44.340 you know, I've got 0.99

01:23:44.960 Nancy Guthrie over here, 0.99

01:23:48.260 Savannah, 1.00

01:23:49.000 and, you know, I want a bunch 0.97

01:23:51.720 of money for her, and I want 0.73

01:23:53.480 $4 million. You know, I'll give you

01:23:55.720 a discount if you give me the money

01:23:57.600 on Thursday, and

01:23:59.300 if not, I, you know,

01:24:01.780 I'll have to wait till Monday, but I want it Monday and I want 6 million, you know?

01:24:07.580 So I think that's very, very, this is all very interesting to me. 0.99

01:24:12.820 You know, some of it looks pretty stupid. 0.92

01:24:18.020 And I've got a question, and I don't want to interrupt you, Megan, but I've got a question for Jim. 0.98

01:24:26.240 And, you know, he specializes in linguistics. 0.72

01:24:33.460 Jim, you and I know the type of personality pretty much that grabs women like them. 0.91

01:24:40.000 I mean, you're usually psychopathic kind of personalities, you know, that's going to, you know, show up at 2.30 in the morning, break in to this 84-year-old woman's house. 0.98

01:24:54.840 you're going to have a mask on

01:24:57.460 you're going to have a gun 0.99

01:24:59.720 hanging from your groin 1.00

01:25:01.480 you're going to go in 0.99

01:25:03.920 and you're going to wake her up 1.00

01:25:05.760 you're going to startle the hell

01:25:07.860 out of her I don't know 1.00

01:25:09.060 how the woman didn't die 1.00

01:25:10.980 from shock or from a heart attack

01:25:13.840 with seeing this

01:25:14.940 you know and being woken up

01:25:17.940 like this

01:25:18.640 so then you're going to spend 40 minutes

01:25:21.620 in there doing whatever you're going to do 0.96

01:25:23.640 then the next thing you know this woman is being taken from her house okay now i'm not hearing

01:25:34.500 or i have heard nothing was taken from her house right the only thing they pretty much that i heard

01:25:40.600 was stolen was her okay so now i've heard the same so she's being taken from her house right

01:25:47.680 So now, I'm not hearing about clothes missing that a kidnapper would need to keep her in.

01:25:54.380 I'm not hearing about medication that a kidnapper would need to keep her alive.

01:26:00.160 I'm not hearing about any kind of sanitary stuff that a woman that's going to be kept in captivity for a number of days before she's traded for money is missing.

01:26:12.260 I don't hear about anything at all.

01:26:14.840 i i i i'm not you know hearing about shoes i don't know if the lady left in shoes 0.61

01:26:20.460 okay oh no savannah said no shoes okay no shoes right now that some kidnapper here right so now 1.00

01:26:29.460 this guy is hauling her a bloody mess okay this poor old woman who has been grabbed in such a 0.99

01:26:40.040 cruel horrific way from her bed and being hauled out of that house is a bloody mess and probably 0.83

01:26:47.780 right from where the blood drops she probably was dumped into some kind of vehicle my thinking only

01:26:54.380 okay and some of the people in our group okay so bottom line there what kind of person are we

01:27:01.760 dealing with to me this has psychopath written all over it in my mind okay now all of a sudden

01:27:09.540 us a second note and you're a linguistics guy okay and i'm a linguistics guy too all right so

01:27:17.380 now we're looking at this guy hauling her away in the first note he's talking all dollars

01:27:23.900 and what he wants for it and now and it reportedly ended john the first note reportedly ended according

01:27:30.220 to tmz with the words or else like you will you will give us this money and said or else that was 0.97

01:27:36.160 number one keep going so anyway so now we got this cruel scumbag i'm sorry okay and this lady 0.97

01:27:48.540 is hauled away and now we get a second note now the first note if you look at the words 0.98

01:27:54.780 they're what i would expect from a psychopath you know that an unfeelings kind of guy i mean

01:28:02.560 you know there's three different uh you know types of primary intake senses when it comes to

01:28:09.380 linguistics that are more or less used consistently you know one is visual one is auditory and the

01:28:15.820 other's feelings kinesthetic okay i have not met a psychopath yet that has a kinesthetic primary

01:28:23.920 intake sense in fact i have not found a psychopath yet that feels hardly anything i i and and believe

01:28:32.220 me i know a couple of them and i'm up close and personal because i study them and they know it

01:28:37.960 they we have an agreement now the reason for this is they don't they really don't do guilt or remorse

01:28:48.840 i mean they've told me right to my face john i can't feel guilt or remorse it's it's just that

01:28:56.280 simple now how much is genetic yes they were abused growing up too but i do believe there's

01:29:01.700 that slight genetic piece. Now going on

01:29:05.480 we have this guy now, this cruel man that did this

01:29:09.620 he's turning around and he's saying

01:29:13.800 more or less kind of, but he's not saying exactly sorry

01:29:17.780 but it was not intentional

01:29:21.040 she perished, I have never heard

01:29:25.560 one of these guys, these are hard guys, they use words

01:29:29.700 like perished no one does she's dead weird word she's dead okay i mean these guys that's how they're

01:29:38.080 coming across all right yeah and not just that but like you know that nothing you could have done

01:29:43.740 would have saved her trying to make the family feel better um just like sort of soft softening

01:29:49.400 it all hold on um i had it right in front of me but yeah yeah here it is we believe it was heart

01:29:55.700 related. She's been buried with nature. We never intended to hurt her. She perished shortly after

01:30:03.620 she was taken. Nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We did not fully grasp

01:30:09.860 the seriousness of her condition. I take your point, John, which is what a difference in tonality

01:30:16.460 in approach. And you know what fits what O'Connell was saying yesterday and James was here too,

01:30:23.160 um was that's a fraudster that's how a fraudster does like they try the one tack like brass knuckles

01:30:31.740 that didn't get a payment so now they're all like oh we're like the sweet kidnappers who

01:30:37.860 we just want to let you know something terrible happened it was totally unforeseen they didn't

01:30:42.800 reiterate their demand reportedly for money in that second note but that was their take like

01:30:47.480 now it's the grifter back trying method number two to get cash and who knows right into the house

01:30:55.080 breaking into the house early in the morning sorry go ahead

01:30:59.080 yeah and who knows go ahead i'm sorry go ahead thank you go ahead uh and who knows from eastern

01:31:06.280 europe from uh you know sub-saharan africa uh or it could be someone you know very much local

01:31:11.560 uh these these particular communications that's what i'll call them instead of notes per se

01:31:16.200 uh they are they are flowery all over the place and they really don't make any sense the problem

01:31:21.480 is we don't have much of a baseline of actual kidnappings in this country as i described

01:31:27.320 earlier uh yeah parental things and custody things we have human trafficking those things but a for

01:31:33.400 profit sort of stranger kidnapping they are so rare they are so out of uh out of the ordinary

01:31:38.920 that we really don't have that template uh in terms what kind of notes are they going to have

01:31:43.720 The closest we've come to it was the JonBenet Ramsey case in 96 in Boulder, Colorado.

01:31:49.700 But, of course, that was never actually a kidnapping.

01:31:51.840 But someone took, you know, the time to write a three-page note.

01:31:55.680 There was actually a practice note put in the trash.

01:31:57.700 And then the other note came out with the kind of demands, how much money, you'll do this, you'll do that.

01:32:02.120 There was really none of that here.

01:32:03.460 And it was very piecemeal and almost nonsensical from the beginning.

01:32:07.880 So I've always said, Megan, and on your show back in February, multiple days in a row, this was a successful abduction.

01:32:16.180 We can criticize all we want in and out 40 minutes, taking something, not taking something.

01:32:21.740 But it was a failed kidnapping.

01:32:24.180 And then I posited after a few weeks, it never was meant to be a kidnapping.

01:32:28.920 This was done for some other reason, something personal.

01:32:33.120 John mentions psychopathy.

01:32:35.420 you got to be careful. John knows that you can't, of course, psycho do a psycho vow without actually

01:32:40.280 doing testing. But I'm not even ruling out erotomania that this guy was a stalker, perhaps

01:32:45.820 of Savannah, and he couldn't get to her. The building she lived in in Manhattan was too well

01:32:50.640 protected, kids, etc. What's the next best thing? Do something to the mom. And whether it went wrong,

01:32:56.880 whether it went right, she died too soon. But this guy was so scared right now. He had his own

01:33:02.120 reasons for doing this personal, you know, perceived relationship. He may have met Savannah

01:33:08.000 in the past, he may have, you know, shared emails with her, you know, very perfunctory and very

01:33:12.800 basic back and forth. And she had no idea that maybe she was pissing off some guy by not giving

01:33:18.260 him, you know, the second eight by 10 glossy or actually doing a phone call with him, something

01:33:22.600 like that. And, and he goes and said, Well, I'll show her. And he does this thing again,

01:33:27.200 successful abduction i don't think was ever meant to be a kidnapping and these letters while they

01:33:32.240 still have to be investigated notes uh communications i i think they're going to basically uh lead down

01:33:38.740 a uh you know a rabbit hole that basically takes the investigators nowhere let me let me follow up

01:33:44.840 on the erotomania thing because you know i've discussed it many times and unfortunately i've

01:33:49.040 had it in my own life um here is something very interesting on this front i've told this story

01:33:56.300 once before on the air, but, um, I, I know somebody who was a psychiatrist at a prison

01:34:03.620 hospital for years, very well-respected psychiatrist. And he told me years ago that

01:34:10.100 there was a, you know, it's not the only test it was, but one of the tools they would use

01:34:15.040 in figuring out whether a patient who was coming in a prisoner was a sociopath, right? No empathy

01:34:21.860 whatsoever was the following, um, riddle. They would offer this riddle to all the prisoners

01:34:30.120 and the ones who were not sociopaths would have one kind of answer. And the ones who were

01:34:35.880 sociopaths would all have a different answer, but they're the sociopaths would answer it the same 0.70

01:34:41.160 way. Okay. And the, the riddle is, um, guy goes to the funeral of a woman while they're mourning

01:34:52.340 the decedent guy makes eye contact with a, um, a woman who's there, who's also attending the

01:35:01.640 funeral and thinks that they had like a moment, like the two of them exchange a glance. It lingers

01:35:08.300 for a couple of seconds whatever the funeral ends everybody goes their separate ways two

01:35:14.260 weeks later guy kills that woman's mother why and the the answer is anything if you're normal

01:35:25.140 if you're a sociopath you know it immediately and they all have it instantly and it is because

01:35:30.420 he wanted to see her again and that that's the way a sociopath thinks and so to your point on

01:35:36.900 the erotomania theory, Jim, like what if you can't have access to Savannah, but what you really want

01:35:44.400 is contact of some sort with Savannah, why not this? This would be a great way of having Savannah

01:35:52.220 think about you and being in Savannah's life and like possibly even coming together with her

01:36:00.060 physically in the future, like at a trial or something in some way. You just like, they don't

01:36:05.560 think the way we do, Fitz. Absolutely not. The brain, the synapses don't connect as they should,

01:36:12.040 especially depending on the level of degree and, you know, how many other examples. This was

01:36:19.040 probably, Savannah was probably not the first victim that this person obsessed over. And again,

01:36:25.660 I worked in New York City in the 90s, and I was up at NBC about once a month, and the various, 0.71

01:36:30.700 mostly female employees there, you know, the on-air personnel before you were in that area,

01:36:36.240 Megan. But, you know, once a month I was dealing with the head of a security, hey, another letter,

01:36:40.400 mostly then back then letters, put a lead out to whatever city they came from. Hey, you sent this

01:36:45.060 kind of strange letter to someone, you know, so-and-so at NBC, did you really plan to hurt

01:36:50.320 her or do anything? And as long as they got a confirmation, no, the guy had no prior record,

01:36:54.500 he wasn't about to travel. They said, you know, all right, no problem, you're good. But so yeah,

01:36:59.140 and I'm hoping, and again, I said this back in February, Megan, I'm hoping the investigators

01:37:03.120 are searching every single email Savannah ever received. She's the outlier to this kidnapping.

01:37:09.480 Obviously, she brings the financial element to it. She's the one that could pay the bigger bucks, 0.99

01:37:15.300 you know, several million, 15, 20 million, whatever it is. And so that's a factor to

01:37:20.440 consider. But she's also the on air personality. There are plenty of wealthy people. And now we 0.99

01:37:25.900 find out letter number one was addressed to her which i didn't i didn't know that back then either

01:37:30.860 so uh that is very interesting and then they perhaps backed off but again it was never about

01:37:36.220 getting money never about any sort of financial uh benefit to this person this was saying i now

01:37:41.720 have something of yours and quite frankly maybe the person did not plan uh for nancy guthrie to

01:37:47.380 die and it's very likely with her delicate condition she did uh you know suffer an early

01:37:53.140 death and an awful death because of this trauma. But nonetheless, he would have loved to sit around

01:37:58.580 and talk to her for weeks at a time. What was Savannah like growing up? And, you know, can I 0.64

01:38:03.460 can you draw some pictures for me, whatever the fantasy life of this person would be. But,

01:38:08.440 but that didn't happen. And I think this person then got rid of Nancy, probably not too far as

01:38:14.980 the crow flies from that house, and and then went deep and dark and it just hasn't come up since

01:38:19.920 the other stuff as i said opportunists isn't writing these notes no here's an argument in

01:38:24.640 favor of it is the guy writing the notes i don't mean john necessarily porch man maybe he was

01:38:30.800 working with somebody i don't know but here's an argument that the perpetrator is the one writing

01:38:35.600 the notes um cbs news i played to you their revelation that the first ransom note was

01:38:40.960 addressed dear savannah what they didn't report weirdly in their on-air piece but did report

01:38:47.780 at CBS.com, their website,

01:38:51.900 was that the note gave highly specific details

01:38:55.220 about Guthrie's home,

01:38:56.860 including that an Apple Watch,

01:38:59.020 which we knew that he said where it was placed,

01:39:02.220 but they reveal that it was,

01:39:04.180 that the note revealed an Apple Watch

01:39:06.460 with a white band was on the floor of her bedroom.

01:39:11.000 Now, I don't know whether they made a mistake there,

01:39:13.660 but that is the first I've seen that reported anywhere.

01:39:16.160 And of course, all the news organizations were asked to withhold some details because, you know, if they get the the guy, they want to be able to test him with information that the public could never have accessed.

01:39:26.760 But there it is. I mean, how else like if you're a fraudster trying to take advantage of this poor suffering, suffering family to try to get them to send you four million bucks or six million if they wait till Monday, how would you know that there's an Apple watch with a white band that was on the floor of her bedroom?

01:39:45.460 That's now we're getting really specific. And maybe that's exactly what investigators found.

01:39:51.100 That's that's not even the kind of thing like a maid two weeks earlier could attest to, you know, like that's you were there.

01:39:58.280 You saw something the night of the crime. Like I'm starting to glean why they may believe these notes.

01:40:04.780 These first two were authentic, John. Well, that's very possible.

01:40:08.220 But, you know, if you also go to theory that somebody is really obsessed with Savannah and they're following this case, you know, from head to tail and they're following the news all the time, because that's what they do.

01:40:23.360 They obsess.

01:40:24.040 They obsess with the news.

01:40:25.240 They look for stories all over the place.

01:40:27.140 As a matter of fact, the person that took Savannah or I'm sorry, that took Nancy, I'm sure will be looking at us today, too.

01:40:37.040 But anyway, I just want to get back to that.

01:40:40.980 I mean, so he could have picked that up from the news.

01:40:46.220 Now, you're the first person that's bringing that out to me.

01:40:50.420 I have not heard that before.

01:40:52.180 And I think that is just unbelievable.

01:40:54.560 CBS just posted it.

01:40:56.380 That is really unbelievable on how that information could have gotten out, okay?

01:41:02.080 Because I'm going to talk in linguistics now, and I want Jim's feedback on this.

01:41:06.600 Jim, we know these guys don't have feelings, number one, lots of them.

01:41:10.820 You know, these kidnappers, they would know feeling if they fell over, right?

01:41:15.580 So now this guy's talking about unintentional.

01:41:19.600 He's talking about perished with nature.

01:41:22.760 What did you ever hear of a hard guy, right? 0.99

01:41:26.360 A psychopath. 0.99

01:41:28.060 Oh, she perished with nature. 0.99

01:41:30.820 Oh, it was unintentional.

01:41:33.740 Have you ever heard that, Vince?

01:41:34.880 They don't use verbatim like that.

01:41:37.320 No.

01:41:37.720 They don't use verbatim. 0.99

01:41:39.100 She's laying on.

01:41:40.100 So let him answer.

01:41:41.860 Go ahead, Vince.

01:41:42.120 I'm sorry.

01:41:42.440 Go ahead.

01:41:42.840 Go ahead.

01:41:43.180 Yeah.

01:41:43.460 And by the way, buried with nature, all of us will be buried with nature.

01:41:48.120 We could be chopped up, shallow grave, regular grave, a pond, a lake in the desert.

01:41:54.600 We're going to be buried with nature.

01:41:56.200 There's nothing to me unusual about that.

01:41:59.360 And look, I also want to be something we should throw out here.

01:42:01.340 uh i've had friends over the years kind of for jokes at least my friends would go to see a psychic

01:42:06.740 and it's it's it's fun to talk to them and maybe they get little tidbits it's amazing what a

01:42:11.320 well-trained experienced psychic can come up with and tell you about yourself they're very well

01:42:17.180 skilled and in that department i'm not saying the person who did this was writing the notes

01:42:21.560 is a psychic but i'm saying i'd like to see the actual language and it could be very much just

01:42:26.700 generic and and sort of suggestive of this and and maybe the the investigators have you know

01:42:33.200 blinders on it so oh well okay the watch was kind of over there but maybe they meant that it was

01:42:38.000 here and and they go in that regard so we have to be careful and we're also only getting sources

01:42:43.280 i'd love to see the notes letters themselves that could help us a lot i know they won't release them

01:42:48.660 all right actually we're gonna hold you guys over we're gonna go to break we're gonna keep this

01:42:52.020 rolling, but I have something to show you right after this break, a picture that may change the

01:42:57.680 discussion entirely. Stand by. Don't go away. SiriusXMers, we will be right back. And by the

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01:45:42.140 Hey, everyone.

01:45:43.180 It's me, Megan Kelly.

01:45:44.280 I've got some exciting news.

01:45:46.460 I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM.

01:45:49.640 It's called the Megyn Kelly Channel,

01:45:51.040 and it is where you will hear the truth,

01:45:52.720 unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies.

01:45:55.780 Along with the Megyn Kelly Show,

01:45:56.960 you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin,

01:45:59.140 Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky,

01:46:01.840 Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more.

01:46:05.120 It's bold, no BS news.

01:46:07.080 Only on the Megyn Kelly Channel, Sirius XM 111,

01:46:10.440 and on the Sirius XM app.

01:46:16.460 There's a note that our Brian Ensign reported on that says that she's dead.

01:46:20.280 She's with nature.

01:46:21.420 Is there any hope that the FBI and investigators find her?

01:46:24.880 I hope they find her.

01:46:26.280 I mean, Savannah's gone through a rough.

01:46:27.860 That family's gone through hell, but I hope they find her.

01:46:31.560 President Trump weighing in on the case after having been asked about it and saying, I hope

01:46:36.900 they find her.

01:46:37.620 Unfortunately, he didn't sound as optimistic as he did the last time he was asked about

01:46:41.240 this and weighed in.

01:46:42.560 There he was outside under an umbrella on a rainy day.

01:46:44.720 the first time was on Air Force One, and said, you know, he felt optimistic. Remember that there

01:46:49.960 was going to be breaking news, and we later found out what that was about. It was the porch video

01:46:54.780 of Porch Man. So he did have reason for optimism, though that didn't wind up solving it, at least

01:47:01.060 not yet. Back with me now, James Fitzgerald. He's a former supervisory special agent for the FBI,

01:47:06.540 now the co-host of the Cold Red podcast. And John Kelly's with us too, a veteran criminal profiler

01:47:11.420 and psychotherapist guys great to have you back again um here's the picture i wanted to show you

01:47:17.360 so we discussed how the perpetrator might have been out there stalking getting information about 0.87

01:47:24.640 savannah take a look at nancy guthrie in this picture notice anything on her left arm yeah 0.74

01:47:32.800 yeah it's it's the fitbit or whatever apple watch yeah with a white band yeah apple watch with a 0.99

01:47:40.920 white band not for nothing but you can see it nancy's skin this happens sometimes with the

01:47:45.440 elderly with her skin looks almost purple from the mid forearm down down just underscoring that 0.99

01:47:51.940 she was a fragile old lady this is 2023 so two you know three years before she would be abducted 0.52

01:47:58.400 But you can see, I mean, look at that.

01:48:01.520 It's like the picture of somebody who is frail.

01:48:04.380 You can see her cane. 1.00

01:48:05.900 You can see her old skin. 1.00

01:48:07.780 You know, I mean, aging.

01:48:09.980 I don't mean, you know, old.

01:48:11.140 I mean, aging skin. 1.00

01:48:12.580 Obviously a circulatory problem because you can see the blood is pooling down on her extremities. 1.00

01:48:17.200 And you can see the watch.

01:48:18.380 So it's telling from a number of perspectives.

01:48:20.860 Now, the CBS.com report said that the perpetrator described Apple Watch with a white band on the floor of her bedroom.

01:48:30.100 So, you know, if you're just somebody taking a shot, that's risky to say that's where it was when you don't know.

01:48:39.760 So you could know about the Apple Watch with the white band.

01:48:42.280 I don't know that you'd be able to say where it was the day she was taken.

01:48:45.440 And the other piece of it is Howard Bloom reporting specifically, he's adding this. He says the first note actually also correctly described what Guthrie had been wearing on the night she was abducted. Again, how accurate, how closely did they describe it?

01:49:04.420 you know, you could, I know what my mom sleeps in every night and you could, if you, if you hit

01:49:09.180 the category, I'd probably believe you. Um, but if this person actually said, you know, it was like

01:49:15.420 leopard pajamas and that's what it was, you'd believe him. Like the FBI knows how close this

01:49:22.420 guy came to the mark. And again, Harvey, who's been in constant contact with the FBI is reporting

01:49:27.820 that the FBI believes the first two are authentic. Savannah's constant contact with the FBI believes

01:49:32.360 the first two notes are authentic, like belong from the kidnapper. And my information was that

01:49:37.240 the second note, the ransom, sorry, the apology note, whatever we're calling it, these she's now

01:49:41.520 died note, that the reason they believed it was from the first guy was that it also had a reference

01:49:46.720 to the same Bitcoin account as was in the first. But that is somewhat contradicted by reports out

01:49:55.640 now that there wasn't a renewed demand for payment so why would they which i believe like

01:50:02.380 everybody's saying there was no new renewed demand for payment in the second note so why would he

01:50:08.080 even made reference to the bitcoin maybe they're just maybe the first report was wrong that there

01:50:14.580 wasn't a second reference to the bitcoin account and it was simply the ip address such as it was

01:50:20.280 obviously masked and so on, was traced back to the same location, obviously masked or not,

01:50:26.660 that it matched the first note to the second. Here's, okay, so that's all that. But here is

01:50:31.620 what I want to ask you guys about. The Harvey friend contact, friend of the kidnapper who

01:50:38.680 keeps texting in to Harvey or emailing. He is emailing Fitz. My conclusion is, my amateur

01:50:47.120 sleuthing this person is definitely not the same person as the person who wrote the first two notes

01:50:53.920 because now we figured out the timeline the first two notes demanding payment for four or six

01:50:59.220 million and then the oh i'm sorry she died those happened the first week nancy had disappeared

01:51:04.360 she was taken on a saturday into a sunday the first note came we believe on tuesday basically

01:51:10.680 saying pay us by Monday or else. Um, and the Thursday deadline for the 4 million passed.

01:51:18.880 And then they received the second note saying she died before it was time to pay

01:51:25.400 number, you know, the 6 million. The whole point is the first week they allegedly had Nancy taken.

01:51:32.460 They received one note saying 4 million or 6 million. They received the second note saying,

01:51:36.320 not never mind, but she's died. Whoops, she's died. That's what led to Savannah and her siblings

01:51:41.740 coming out and saying on video, we understand. We really want to celebrate with our mother.

01:51:49.820 This is important to us. We will pay. And the belief now is that this is them not explicitly

01:51:55.900 acknowledging she's dead, as they've been told, because they don't want all of us to go away

01:52:01.020 and stop looking for Nancy

01:52:02.480 because they don't know if this is real, right?

01:52:06.460 So like she might be dead.

01:52:07.760 This might be the actual kidnapper.

01:52:09.300 But if it's not, or if she's not,

01:52:11.860 they don't want all of us to take our foot off the pedal

01:52:14.020 and go away and stop covering this.

01:52:15.420 So the family wants to telegraph to the kidnapper

01:52:17.800 if it's real, we'll give you money for her corpse.

01:52:21.620 Please stay in touch with us.

01:52:23.280 Tell us how to do that.

01:52:24.680 And while keeping us all on the line.

01:52:26.900 but this the friend of harvey doesn't appear until second week second week and his first

01:52:35.920 message says time is of the essence i've seen them and suggested maybe in mexico then a day

01:52:43.040 or two later sends another note saying time is no longer of the essence telegraphing like

01:52:49.100 she's died now like between his first note and second note but the other person a week earlier

01:52:55.860 pulled the same routine give us the four to six million or else and then a couple days later

01:53:02.300 she died so this is not the same person i mean maybe it's the same fraud being perpetrated

01:53:07.360 from different angles but that's what's happened so initially i thought maybe friend of harvey

01:53:12.880 was dovetailing at the same time as the first two-letter guy and initially they were like right

01:53:19.320 you know pay pay pay time is of the essence they both were kind of saying that and then they

01:53:22.760 initially were both like, and nevermind, but that's not true. It was a week later. And it's

01:53:28.620 part of the reason why I think friend of Harvey is completely bullshit. I've, I have an open mind 0.99

01:53:33.540 on the first guy. Friend of Harvey seems like a complete fraudster. And last but not least, 0.89

01:53:38.500 let me play what Harvey Levin said just a couple of hours ago, as he revealed friend of Harvey or

01:53:44.260 friend of kidnapper has been in touch yet again. And this is what he said. Stop 49.

01:53:50.920 Only two are directly involved. He says that he has video. He has video of Nancy Guthrie with the main kidnapper, he says, while it contains, what it contains is my definition of delivering it on a silver platter.

01:54:13.700 a short video of the main guy with Nancy the day that was probably her last.

01:54:21.340 He also says that he has names, addresses, phone numbers of the kidnappers.

01:54:29.400 Now, he says he has that video in a phone, and the phone is turned off.

01:54:38.800 It is in a secure, secret location, but a location easy to find if you know where to look.

01:54:48.740 And that's what he says.

01:54:49.500 He doesn't say a safe deposit box, but he says easy to find if you know where to look.

01:54:55.720 And he says that if he gets a Bitcoin, he will deliver, as he puts it on a silver platter,

01:55:03.380 exactly how to get access to this phone, including the password.

01:55:10.360 John Kelly, thoughts on that?

01:55:13.260 This guy's looking for his 15 minutes of fame in a Bitcoin.

01:55:18.320 That's about what this amounts to to me.

01:55:21.180 I mean, this is just, you know, silliness.

01:55:24.740 I mean, you don't believe that guy at all.

01:55:26.540 I don't believe it.

01:55:27.500 I don't believe it for one minute.

01:55:29.480 He's getting off that it keeps getting reported and he's on TV and he's hearing about himself and he's getting off to that and he's trying to get a Bitcoin in the meantime.

01:55:40.680 This guy, you know, I look, I can be wrong, right?

01:55:44.560 There's no question about it.

01:55:46.140 But I wouldn't give this guy 10 cents, let alone a Bitcoin.

01:55:50.660 Yeah. And you heard Harvey later come out, Fitz, and say, if you're real, go to wherever the phone is, get a screen grab of something proving you're not a liar. If you've got something, send it. You've been sending us more than a dozen emails. Send us something to show you're not a fraudster. That's not going to happen.

01:56:13.340 And by the way, Fitz, do you remember when this guy sent his first or second note to Sheriff Harvey?

01:56:18.480 He said, you won't be hearing from me again.

01:56:22.060 OK, it's been like 10, 10 notes later.

01:56:26.340 Harvey's begging him to send something proving he's not a fraudster.

01:56:29.720 And I think we all know where that's going to lead. 0.98

01:56:32.420 Yeah, fake, phony and fraudster. 0.98

01:56:34.760 The three F's there, alliterally speaking. 0.99

01:56:37.760 Yeah. You know, we're going back and forth with this, Megan.

01:56:40.360 and I probably use the next three words I'm about to say, you know,

01:56:43.740 a half dozen times with you in February, I'm going to modify it slightly.

01:56:48.200 Back then, all they were asking for was proof of life, three words.

01:56:52.360 Now, it's very likely Nancy is deceased.

01:56:56.740 Now give us proof of death.

01:56:58.660 Why all this game playing, this showmanship, these machinations going back and forth

01:57:04.020 and people guessing and folks like us discussing this on the air, which is fine

01:57:08.220 Because we have limited information. And of course, I'm going to say again, the investigators would be remiss if they didn't follow through on this. But I hope they're telling Savannah to please, you know, don't get overly what's the right word, but don't get overly confident that this is something that's going to come to pass because we wanted proof of life.

01:57:26.480 And we never really had that a bit. I mean, a Fitbit or the Apple Watch, whatever it was on the floor and describes it.

01:57:33.780 OK. And Megan, by the way, that picture you showed of Savannah with her mother with the watch, I assume that was public before the abduction.

01:57:42.060 Correct. We think so. I actually asked my team where we got it and they said it's been circulating online, but by all people who are watching this case.

01:57:52.140 so but it had would have to be right because nancy's been missing and i mean whether it was

01:57:58.480 public on the today show said whether it was public or not on facebook or whatever is what i'm

01:58:02.920 or what i'm suggesting here so if the person wouldn't know how to describe the watch if this

01:58:07.160 was a private collection you know that that savannah never put out there all right that tells

01:58:11.300 us a little something more if it's out there and megan i was on with you i think live one day

01:58:15.860 And you found and your team found a walkthrough of Nancy's bedroom.

01:58:22.260 And there was a video that, you know, years before, and I'm probably the older woman hasn't changed her bedroom that much.

01:58:28.520 It's the same house, same bedroom.

01:58:30.320 And I think you even commented, you know, your mother, remember my mother, you know, you just don't change much when you get, you know, past 50 or 60 in your bedroom.

01:58:38.080 unless you actually move so it wouldn't be hard to watch that somewhere and then in fact come up

01:58:42.960 with this uh you know this uh this this inside singular knowledge that only the real kidnapper

01:58:48.940 knows and again i'm saying this was an abduction not a kidnapping for but jim you don't find it

01:58:54.100 you don't find it persuasive like if if the cops got there and that apple watch was on the floor

01:59:02.100 that's good that that would convince me this was actually from the real kidnapper i'd have to

01:59:09.980 yeah and and i i would agree with you megan on that particular note but it also doesn't mean

01:59:18.160 these are the kidnappers and i'm not sure the guy who abducted her would have put some letter

01:59:22.920 out like this making it look like a kidnapping as opposed to an abduction and really quick the

01:59:27.760 other point I wanted to make here, there have been for-profit criminal kidnappings over the years,

01:59:34.000 hate to go back, 94 years, Lindbergh. The baby died within 10 minutes of being brought down the

01:59:39.360 ladder in Hopewell, New Jersey, and Hoffman buried the body there. But the kidnapping, I'm sorry,

01:59:44.880 the ransom request went on for two years. Sidney Riso was shot in the arm in 1999. He's the Exxon

01:59:50.580 executive in northern New Jersey. And he died a day or two later, but the husband and wife

01:59:55.040 kidnapping team kept up all the negotiations for the next six to eight weeks or so. So why did the

02:00:01.700 person, so if she did die, why did they give up on the kidnapping? There had to be a lot of planning

02:00:07.460 with this, whether from overseas, locally, whatever, whether the kidnap mastermind was

02:00:13.840 somewhere else, and this was local talent that he hired to go in with the mask and the Doc Holliday

02:00:20.100 holster in front of him and and and carry through there but why just give up on the kidnapping if

02:00:25.960 you had that proof of life send something send the pajamas or at least cut a piece off that the

02:00:31.280 mother was allegedly wearing and say we have her here's the pajamas she was wearing she's okay

02:00:36.040 give us the money they would have paid that money in a heartbeat uh knowing that kind of proof but

02:00:41.460 everything is so nebulous so amorphous that i don't blame them i'm glad they didn't pay the big bucks

02:00:47.580 to these people with such little information to provide. Again, successful abduction,

02:00:53.120 you can criticize the interactions there on the porch, but a half-assed kidnapping,

02:00:57.880 and I would just further surmise, it never was meant to be a for-profit kidnapping by

02:01:02.940 legal definition. John, our pal Howard Bloom, who's reporting in Airmail,

02:01:10.160 restarted this case this week because he was the one who first revealed some of the contents of

02:01:15.560 the second note. He is reporting that there's a case of regret happening right now amongst law

02:01:23.720 enforcement because they are starting to think they should have just paid the $4 million and

02:01:28.820 then followed the money. And that would have gotten them to somebody, which would have given

02:01:32.900 them some answers. And again, the reporting is that the FBI thinks that $4 million demand came

02:01:38.780 from the actual kidnapper. Here is Howard on, I don't know where he was this week, but he was

02:01:46.540 on Inside Edition. And he was talking about this theory in terms that John Wayne fans may find

02:01:54.440 familiar. It's not 56. The $4 million ransom was never paid. And investigative reporter and

02:02:00.980 bestselling author Howard Bloom says detectives he spoke to are regretting that decision today.

02:02:06.660 Not to have done that originally, when the window of opportunity was there, was perhaps a very big, even a fatal mistake.

02:02:14.580 He says Tucson police considered using what they called the Big Jake Theory, a tactic inspired by the 1971 John Wayne Western, Big Jake.

02:02:23.580 Let me down! Come on! Let me down!

02:02:26.820 In the movie, John Wayne's grandson is kidnapped, and he chases the bad guys.

02:02:31.520 he has a plan he's going to pay the money but also get the money back and his grandson back

02:02:38.720 and the cops refer to that because that's what they feel should have been done in this case

02:02:43.120 they should have paid the ransom hope to get nancy back and then worry about getting the money back

02:02:47.800 bloom believes the kidnappers got the idea to kidnap nancy after savannah returned home to

02:02:53.980 shoot a special for the today show last november the best thing about tucson is coming home yes

02:02:59.220 you guys i believe someone in tucson saw this and they saw look at these people they have so much

02:03:05.880 their life is so blessed and in their greed they came up with this scheme to take savannah's mother

02:03:13.260 so what do you make of that john the thought they should have just paid the four mil yeah

02:03:18.020 no if you listen to what he said there he said the tucson police he didn't say the fbi

02:03:24.540 you follow me i i would not if i would not if the fbi didn't go along with that wholeheartedly

02:03:32.020 i would not go along with it i would pan the tucson police track that i don't know can i

02:03:40.040 do i believe the fbi could track that bitcoin transaction absolutely you know one other

02:03:46.960 question uh two questions i have that i think are important the one question is that her king

02:03:53.840 did anybody say that her cane was out of the house that the cane was missing from the house

02:03:59.000 i don't i have not heard that the cane was either left behind or taken i don't know anything about

02:04:05.540 it okay because that's that's important for some guy that's apologizing right for uh you know or

02:04:11.080 or or or seemingly putting together some kind of empathy you know uh for the woman and then the

02:04:19.260 other thing again i go back to what you brought up megan about the news and the watch and everything

02:04:26.900 uh you know being found on the floor uh on the news i mean these guys watch everything i'm telling

02:04:34.000 you they're gonna want this guy who's out there's watching this and this brings me back to what jim

02:04:38.500 said early on in this interview in this show okay jim you talked about him being scared whoever this

02:04:46.120 guy is right now. He's scared. Talk about that. Well, especially Fitz, because did you hear what

02:04:55.040 Maureen said on this show on Wednesday? I heard a few things. I know she put a 75 percentile

02:05:00.680 mark out there. Yeah, I'll play it just for the audience that didn't hear her. But we love Maureen

02:05:06.040 and she's former FBI, too. And she said the following two days ago. The person we're talking

02:05:10.660 to could say, wow, they're probably closer than we think they are. Could you just expand on why

02:05:15.000 you think they're wrapping like they're getting there that they're close to making an arrest

02:05:18.760 i think they're getting close to the porch guy and when they when they get the porch guy

02:05:29.280 the floodgates shall swing open what's your level of confidence on that 75 that's big news i know

02:05:39.320 she's not loosey-goosey maureen's careful she's considered she's bright and she's got connections

02:05:46.560 so that was very interesting and it did make a lot of news it went everywhere so your thoughts

02:05:50.220 yeah uh and i trust maureen implicitly and if she has sources that i don't have right inside

02:05:56.340 the investigation good for her and of course if that person was identified that would open the

02:06:02.120 floodgates or whatever she said there i agree 100 so uh i mean he is the kidnapper whether there was

02:06:08.440 someone else or abductorized. Let me go back to that word. But and then whether someone else

02:06:12.520 helping in the car, whatever, we don't know that. But but there's gonna be an alpha male who's in

02:06:17.800 charge of this. If there's a second if there is a helper, a second person, it's going to be the

02:06:22.040 alpha male. That's what my profile went out. You know, at the end of February, early March, when

02:06:27.420 this thing just hadn't been solved. And he's the one that of course, the investigators have to

02:06:32.800 focus on. And I think everything else here gets them and floats them. And it doesn't have anything

02:06:37.020 to do with the case itself. And again, you talked a little bit, Megan, early on about the regret

02:06:41.920 the task force members may feel. And I've been on task force, Unabomb task force,

02:06:47.060 and the DC sniper task force. And when the next victim occurred, when the next victim was killed,

02:06:53.020 you felt like shit. And you felt awful. What could we have done different? Why didn't we get, 1.00

02:06:58.780 make the arrest beforehand? I remember before I even showed up at the Unabomb task force,

02:07:02.540 They did an interview or something in Playboy magazine, I think, and a very legitimate interview.

02:07:07.920 Playboy would have good journalism back then. 0.95

02:07:11.500 And then there's two killings right afterwards, and they felt so bad, two bombing victims by the Unabomber.

02:07:17.640 And they felt somehow their article, their interview, things they said about him could have contributed to him.

02:07:22.880 But then we finally got in the cabin, got all his written communications, and these murders and these particular people were planned well before that came out.

02:07:29.660 So, as John said, this person has no remorse, no compassion for anyone.

02:07:35.640 He's a narcissist to some degree.

02:07:37.880 And this is all about him at this point.

02:07:40.600 And if Maureen's right, we talked about pre-offense behavior and post-offense behavior.

02:07:45.580 Whoever out there knows this guy, maybe he heard what Maureen said.

02:07:49.060 You may see some changes in his behavior, putting the car in the garage, driving Uber

02:07:53.920 back and forth to work, growing a beard, shaving it off, whatever it takes.

02:07:58.260 If you see someone with behavior that's changed, certainly back in January, then again in February, you know, remember that.

02:08:06.380 But but certainly in the last week or so, if he thinks people are getting closer, the best thing.

02:08:11.620 And I'll just say this one more time.

02:08:13.740 The best thing happening for the actual abductor is these bizarre notes coming in.

02:08:20.500 They're saying, thank goodness, you know, defray the investigation.

02:08:23.860 let them focus on that and not worry so much about me because I never even thought of doing it for

02:08:28.760 that reason but hey if they want to think that good for them this guy did it for a very personal

02:08:33.140 reason and as I put out there I challenge this person if he's listening to my podcast and 0.98

02:08:37.960 certainly yours he may just be a guy that likes to have sex with old ladies I know it's graphic 0.97

02:08:43.020 I hate to say it and there's a name for that John you know what that condition is it's in the DSM 0.99

02:08:47.720 and if he wants to tell us otherwise no I'm not one of those perverts put something out there and

02:08:53.520 tell us why you did this. And you don't have to give your name away, you don't have to give your

02:08:57.420 address or your age, which apparently somebody has on their phone. But just, you know, tell us

02:09:03.560 why you did this. So you're not, that's why the Unabomber eventually started writing to the New

02:09:07.660 York Times. He didn't want people to think he was some random nut job, you know, sending off bombs

02:09:12.940 to, you know, random people. He had specific purposes in doing so. And I'm trying to encourage

02:09:19.200 this guy you know if you don't want to be seen as some kind of pervert who likes old women you

02:09:23.280 may want to uh you may just just tell the public why you did this and without even giving anything

02:09:28.000 away and at least your legacy will go down that you're not this creepy guy that many of us who

02:09:32.960 know this stuff think you may just be very good women you know by the way it's megan at megankelly.com 0.98

02:09:40.720 if you're trying to get in touch go ahead john yeah and megan and jim there's two other women

02:09:46.000 similar looks older women that are missing uh in in um arizona it's it's kind of creepy if you want

02:09:55.680 to take a look at it and i don't think either one has been found um they lived alone very very

02:10:03.840 mo very similar to nancy as far as um living conditions go okay uh if you want to look at

02:10:13.600 Carolyn Osner, C-O-S-N-O-R-N, Iona Deas, D-E-A-S.

02:10:23.560 If you want to take a look or if you'd like me to send some pictures over to you,

02:10:27.740 because the first thing, you know, we started looking at, you know,

02:10:32.040 and, you know, if somebody's missing, if somebody's been grabbed,

02:10:37.440 and if it's not a kidnapping, if it's something else,

02:10:40.860 if it is something sexual or whatever.

02:10:43.720 Do we have any other victims?

02:10:45.240 Let's look around and see if we have anybody else.

02:10:47.820 You are the serial killer catcher. 0.95

02:10:50.820 Yeah, so if you check these two women out, 0.71

02:10:53.080 if you want me to send their pictures over, Megan, 1.00

02:10:55.000 I'll send them over to you.

02:10:55.980 I think you'll find it very interesting.

02:10:58.400 We would like to check that out.

02:10:59.960 My team is now alerting me that in that segment

02:11:05.400 that NBC aired in November, this past November,

02:11:09.540 November 5th, 2025, which would have been December, January, three months before the kidnapping.

02:11:16.340 Nancy had the white watch or the Apple watch with the white strap on it on there too. So there was

02:11:23.700 that picture of Savannah and her back in 2023. And now here, this is just three months before

02:11:28.360 she was taken. There it is. You can see it very clearly. Apple watch, white band. But again,

02:11:35.400 doesn't necessarily explain if they were able to say it was on the floor of her bedroom, but that

02:11:40.960 watch was definitely out there for the for the viewing. The case remains a mystery. It remains

02:11:46.960 unsolved, not for lack of trying by our part on our part. I don't know. I'm sure that law enforcement

02:11:53.220 still is working furiously, but Harvey's reporting no new leads. He's disputing that they're close

02:12:01.200 defining porch guy based on his sources but but he also says he hasn't spoken to the fbi

02:12:06.880 in months he says they won't call him back anymore so i'm not sure how up to date his

02:12:12.220 information is i trust maureen uh implicitly as you do jim she hasn't steered us wrong yet

02:12:17.420 guys thank you both so much for being here and further updates to follow you're welcome megan

02:12:22.020 thank you so much megan have a wonderful weekend thank you oh thank you thank you you too all

02:12:28.000 right. And thanks to all of you for tuning in. Go ahead. As I mentioned, today's Friday. So we

02:12:31.800 post our American news minute. If you go to megankelly.com, you can sign up for it. I'm

02:12:36.840 sorry to tell you, but my Stredwick updates have been out of control lately. He's the sweetest boy.

02:12:44.440 He honestly, I love this dog so much. He's just so sweet and so loving and lovable, but he's so

02:12:51.440 naughty. And we've had trips to the vet. We've had very expensive bills. We've had a lot of

02:12:58.760 stuff ruined, like recently. And he's five. Why? Why? We also do the news in the American News

02:13:06.460 Minute. It's not just the Stredwick newsletter. Anyway, go and sign up if you need a laugh

02:13:11.480 at my expense. And in the meantime, have a wonderful weekend. Lots of love to you. We're

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The Megyn Kelly Show - June 26, 2026

Latest Arrest Connected to Karmelo Anthony Case, Nowak Prosecutors Appeal Digwa’s Lenient Sentence, New Developments in Nancy Guthrie Case ｜ Ep. 1348

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