The Megyn Kelly Show - Left's Trans Ideology Religion, and Men in Women's Spaces, with Sen. Josh Hawley and KKG Sisters Suing Over Trans Pledge

00:00:00.540 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.920 Hey, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We have got a great

00:00:16.040 show lined up for you today as we dive into womanhood and manhood. In our next hour, I

00:00:21.500 will bring you a Megyn Kelly Show exclusive with several brave women from a Wyoming sorority.

00:00:27.380 Remember I told you about this story a couple weeks ago? Who are fighting back after a biological

00:00:32.120 male joined their woman-only space. At least it was up until they allowed him in. He said he was

00:00:39.360 trans, certainly didn't look trans, six foot two, 260 pounds, and absolutely zero effort to look

00:00:45.720 female as far as I can tell. However, that's not the relevant point. The relevant point is he's a man

00:00:51.040 and he's joining a woman-only space with the cooperation of the Kappa Kappa Gamma

00:00:57.420 national sorority. You will not believe what these women were subjected to, and today

00:01:02.660 they are speaking out. In a moment, I'm going to be joined by Josh Hawley, a United States Senator

00:01:09.860 from Missouri, to talk about the other headlines from the border insanity to 2024. But before we

00:01:15.780 bring on Senator Hawley, I wanted to have a word about a segment we did on Friday. You may remember

00:01:23.920 that I spoke out in response to Charlize Theron, who decided to participate in a telethon raising money

00:01:32.380 for drag queens. Sure, that's a worthy cause to spend your time on. And she had this threat for anyone

00:01:41.480 who opposed her agenda of allowing them to perform apparently wherever and whenever and be in front

00:01:49.300 of whichever audience she, and I guess they, would like. Listen.

00:01:55.900 We love you, queen. We love you, queen. We're in your corner and we've got you and I will fuck

00:02:01.560 anybody up who's like trying to fuck with anything with you guys. It's really, in all seriousness,

00:02:06.400 there's so many things that are hurting and really killing our kids. And we all know what I'm talking

00:02:12.880 about right now. And it ain't no drag queen, because if you've ever seen a drag queen lip sync

00:02:18.480 for her life, it only makes you happier. It only makes you love more. It makes you a better person.

00:02:27.320 Okay. Not true. And obviously just a blatant pander to the far left wokesters who are important to her.

00:02:36.400 So on the show on Friday, I pointed this out and said accurately that drag queen shows actually

00:02:43.180 can be a potential problem and was sure to point out that, look, you're a grownup. You want to go

00:02:47.860 into a bar and watch one over age 21 with a cocktail? That's up to you. I myself have done it.

00:02:53.680 When I lived in Chicago 25 years ago, there was a place called the Baton Club. It was unbelievable.

00:02:59.080 And we had a lot of fun there. Different story entirely from drag queen shows in front of young

00:03:04.520 children, which is happening. So in the wake of those comments, you had some far lefties like

00:03:10.760 LGBTQ nation write up my comments on Friday and attack me for quote, citing zero evidence that

00:03:20.600 there are drag queen shows that are deeply disturbing, disturbing and happening in front of children.

00:03:25.600 Well, LGBTQ nation, I actually showed such video on the show on Friday. If you had just

00:03:32.200 paid attention to more than the one minute clip that you apparently watched, we did a 10 minute

00:03:36.880 segment on it right now. It's got about a half a million views on YouTube. Here's more where you

00:03:43.140 see inappropriate sexualized content being offered in front of children. Okay. In front of kids,

00:03:50.280 this website among others on the left claim that these are false claims I made that have become

00:03:55.580 distressingly common on the right. No, what is distressing is what is being done to the kids.

00:04:03.560 And I'll give you one of the reasons that I am so upset about this stuff.

00:04:08.280 I recently prepared a show and you're going to see it next month, taking a deep dive into what happened

00:04:14.540 with Jared, the subway guy. Remember the spokesperson for subway? Well, he turned out to be a

00:04:20.200 pedophile and is now in prison for 15 years. And Netflix did an explosive and very eye opening

00:04:26.400 documentary on how he was caught and what the evidence was against him. And you are going to

00:04:32.420 be riveted by this interview we did with one of the women, the woman who actually first discovered

00:04:37.440 this was who he really was and made it her life's mission to catch him. One of the clips from that

00:04:43.120 documentary is Jared talking to my guest who's coming on next month. Rochelle is her name

00:04:48.440 about how he wants her. She's basically gone undercover to try to catch him. She's leading

00:04:54.240 him to believe that she's going to work with him, that she's somehow turned on by, by this predilection

00:04:59.940 of his. This is all she's working with the FBI. This woman has no inclination toward pedophiles

00:05:05.660 whatsoever. She's acting and she's acting with him, trying to lead him to believe that she's on his

00:05:11.740 side. And listen to what the way he tells her. He wants her to talk in front of young children.

00:05:18.080 She's got two kids, birthday parties and stuff about the way she, she is supposed to groom the

00:05:23.840 children for his arrival. Listen, what kind of cute friends that your kids have?

00:05:29.900 Oh, they have very cute friends. They know everything about sex. It's all they ever talk

00:05:34.440 about in school. What I need you to do is to start talking about that kind of stuff in front of them.

00:05:40.000 You know, you would just say, oh, tell Jared what you're going to talk about in school.

00:05:44.360 You need to start talking about that stuff in front of them. And then it escalates to tell Jared

00:05:49.720 what what you talked about at school. You start getting the kids used to inappropriate sexual

00:05:55.660 talk, sexual looks, sexual content. And then the pedophile moves in for the kill. That's called

00:06:03.860 grooming. It's a real thing. It's supposed to lower the child's defenses to inappropriate sexual

00:06:12.020 content at an inappropriate age. And this is one of the many reasons why drag queen shows in front of

00:06:19.340 children that are sexualized are grossly inappropriate. I'm not talking about, as I

00:06:25.960 pointed out, Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie, Robin Williams in Mrs. Doubtfire. There wasn't a sexual

00:06:32.840 thing about those performances. They were something entirely different. But to suggest that, look at

00:06:38.980 this, look at this man dressed as a woman with his breasts hanging out, his fake false, false

00:06:44.300 prosthetic breasts hanging out in front of toddlers, all right, in front of young children. It is

00:06:49.700 happening. There are bills in several states to stop it, not because anyone wants to stop adults

00:06:55.200 who are consenting and over the age of 21 from seeing what they want to see in a place like a bar,

00:07:00.720 because we don't want it in front of our kids. And if you don't understand Charlize and LGBTQ

00:07:06.760 nation and whoever else came after me for the Friday comments, which I'm fine with. But if you don't

00:07:11.800 understand that there actually is a problem, and if you're not equally outraged about it,

00:07:16.220 then you are part of the problem. You're part of the problem. You are setting the stage for further

00:07:21.160 grooming and exploitation of children. And the Charlize Theron thing is so disturbing because

00:07:26.820 guess who the pedophiles mostly go after? There are millions of them in the United States. Millions.

00:07:32.160 There are about a million in custody and something like 10 to 40 percent of pedophiles get caught.

00:07:37.860 The vast majority do not get caught. So there are millions more prowling schools and kids clubs and

00:07:44.860 kids charities right now. And the problem for somebody like Charlize Theron with all of her

00:07:50.220 privilege to come out and say, I will fuck you up if you if you oppose drag queens is that she could

00:07:56.820 not come from a more privileged position. She's rich. She's famous. She's beautiful. I'm sure she has a

00:08:03.460 staff that looks like Downton Abbey. Guess who the pedophiles go after first? The kids from broken

00:08:09.820 homes. The poor kids. The kids who have a parent who's addicted to drugs or alcohol. The kids who

00:08:17.520 wind up in the system for having committed a juvenile defense. The kids who don't have a rich and famous

00:08:22.620 mother out there saying slay queen. All right, so she can lay the groundwork all she wants for drag queen

00:08:30.260 performers everywhere. She's not going to have to pick up the mess. She's not going to have to deal

00:08:34.820 with the children who get hurt as a result of us pretending this isn't happening. And it's all fine.

00:08:40.780 It's all just well and good. It's not. It's dangerous. That's the truth. Stand by every word I said.

00:08:50.340 I would like the word spread wide, far and wide. So more people like Charlize Theron and LGBTQ nation

00:08:58.120 can educate themselves. That consensual entertainment between adults is one thing

00:09:04.840 and the sexualization and grooming. Indeed, it is grooming of young children is another.

00:09:12.980 Okay, let's get to our first guest today. Josh Hawley is a United States Senator from the state

00:09:17.700 of Missouri, and he's author of the brand new book, Manhood, The Masculine Virtues America Needs,

00:09:23.220 which is out tomorrow. Senator Hawley, welcome back to the show. Great to have you.

00:09:27.940 Thank you. I know you've you've spoken out on the protection of children many times. You're right

00:09:32.100 now submitting a bill to try to crack down on porn online that too often winds up in front of young

00:09:38.860 kids. What do you make of this whole thing? Well, listen, I think that you're absolutely right

00:09:43.800 about the radical left. What I can't figure out, Megan, is why the left these days is so obsessed

00:09:49.400 with just to take your last example with drag queens. Joe Biden has them at the White House.

00:09:54.240 The left talks about it constantly. They want to shove them in front of our children.

00:09:57.940 We've all seen this is happening in my home state where we have schools, public schools,

00:10:01.140 taking elementary and middle school age kids to drag queen shows without their parents' knowledge,

00:10:07.800 let alone consent. It's weird. I mean, what is the fascination and obsession with shoving this in

00:10:13.860 front of our kids' faces? And then you go to the next step, which is you have these gender

00:10:18.360 reassignment clinics, these gender so-called therapy clinics. Again, this is happening in my

00:10:22.720 home state, that without the parents' knowledge are conducting gender reassignment surgeries

00:10:27.620 that can sterilize children for life. I mean, this is really out of control. And I think the answer

00:10:33.600 to this is we've got to give parents control again. Let them sue when their kids are harmed without

00:10:38.620 their consent, whether it's through forced sterilization. Let them sue if there's pornographic

00:10:43.640 material online that their kids are exposed to, that these platforms are putting up. This child

00:10:48.640 exploitative abuse material, sometimes called CSAM. Let the parents sue. Let the victims sue

00:10:54.900 and get their day in court. But we've got to give parents and families, we've got to protect families,

00:10:59.880 we've got to protect parents. They know what's best for their kids. I don't want government raising

00:11:04.700 their kids. I certainly don't want the radical left raising my kids. I want to be able to raise my own

00:11:08.020 kids. And I think every parent in America wants that.

00:11:10.040 You're so right. It's a good parallel between these drag queen shows that are inappropriately

00:11:14.860 sexualized for children and what's happening with the trans ideology in the other lane. Because

00:11:20.100 both of them involve a parent, I think, working out his or her own issues with their child,

00:11:26.520 on their child, right? Like what other parent would take a three-year-old and say they're,

00:11:33.680 quote, transitioning and start them down the line on puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones?

00:11:38.720 You know, we've seen a play out with his Jazz Jennings on national television,

00:11:42.080 where this person is going through torture with all these surgeries. And the parent, I mean,

00:11:48.000 it's got to have to, it's got to have something to do with the parent and their own problems.

00:11:53.060 Well, and even worse, Megan, is what we've seen in many of these clinics,

00:11:56.860 these so-called gender clinics, where the parents are cut out of the deal. I mean, imagine your mother,

00:12:01.680 I mean, imagine your own kids going to school, you send them to school, and then find out

00:12:06.260 that a counselor or someone else behind your back has said, there's something wrong with your gender,

00:12:12.160 you need to transition to a different gender. And then they start them on therapies,

00:12:15.880 and then they start them on hormone treatments. And then maybe they recommend a surgery that will

00:12:20.480 permanently change their body and sterilize them. And this happens without the parents being involved

00:12:26.100 or knowing or consent. We're talking about minor children here. This is insane. This is why in the UK,

00:12:31.500 they've shut down many of these gender clinics, but here in the United States, they are proliferating.

00:12:36.620 And again, this is happening in my home state, Megan. We've got a case right now in St. Louis,

00:12:40.580 Missouri, where we have a gender clinic where whistleblowers have come forward and said kids were given

00:12:45.820 hormone treatments, sterilization drugs, and sometimes surgeries without the parent's knowledge,

00:12:53.280 without the parent's consent, sometimes without the patient's full consent. This is crazy.

00:12:58.660 It has become a religion of the left. And all I can say is the fact that anytime you stand up and

00:13:04.640 say, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, maybe it's not a good idea to have these kind of

00:13:08.240 surgeries, to have these kind of things going on without parents knowing about it, to your point

00:13:12.100 a moment ago, maybe it's not a good idea for little kids to be put in front of drag queens and

00:13:17.220 these sexualized shows. The fact that the left then melts down anytime you say anything like that

00:13:22.360 really shows you, I think, just how radical and frankly, sort of religiously ideological

00:13:28.600 it has become on the left. And I just think it's out of touch with reality. And parents look at this

00:13:33.480 and they say, whoa, whoa, what is happening here?

00:13:36.400 It's infuriating how important it is to these people to have my child see an inappropriate

00:13:41.680 sexualized show. I mean, no, right? No, I don't want it at school and I don't want it at the public

00:13:48.280 library and I don't want it for anybody's kid. Frankly, I don't think it's appropriate. I worry

00:13:53.460 about other kids getting groomed and getting molested, even if they're not my own. Of course,

00:13:57.480 like most sane citizens do. Sixty plus percent of the American adult population is against drag queens

00:14:03.620 performing in front of children because they're not lunatics. But on your point, I think it's

00:14:09.320 Finland, Sweden and the UK have all now reverted to therapy, talk therapy, being the first line of

00:14:16.320 defense for children who say they have some sort of gender dysphoria or they think they were born

00:14:21.400 in the wrong body, et cetera. Here in the United States, there's actually a proposal by the Biden

00:14:26.100 administration to call that conversion therapy, to talk, to call talk therapy for kids who might

00:14:32.500 have some gender confusion. And why wouldn't they when it's being shoved down their throats by their

00:14:35.800 schools and so on? They're calling that convert conversion therapy. Now there's a push

00:14:40.960 to ban it. So you can't even to have somebody sit with a with a with a knowledgeable psychologist or

00:14:48.160 psychiatrist and figure out whether it's my parents divorce or my eating disorder that's causing these

00:14:54.020 feelings, et cetera. We're just so backwards on this, Senator. Yes. And I think, again, because the

00:14:59.880 radical left has pushed us here and also, Megan, I mean, you've reported on this for many years.

00:15:04.460 You know that the drill here, follow the money, right? All of these clinics, these gender clinics are

00:15:08.860 popping up all over the United States. Where's the money coming from? I mean, who is paying for who

00:15:13.640 has a financial interest in pushing kids toward gender reassignment surgeries and pushing kids

00:15:18.420 toward hormone therapy drugs that cost tens of thousands of dollars and often have to be continued

00:15:24.220 for a lifetime. So I've just said when it comes to the gender clinic in my state, in the state of

00:15:28.900 Missouri, where we've now had multiple whistleblowers come forward and say kids were shoved through this

00:15:33.520 process. They were given to psychiatrists, signed off on gender reassignment without actually

00:15:38.780 ever having met the children. The children were not informed. And I do mean children. They're

00:15:44.040 minors. We're not informed of the consequences of these treatments. Parents were kept in the dark

00:15:48.740 and magically somebody paid for all of these incredibly expensive treatments and the clinic

00:15:53.860 made money on it. Who's making the money? Why are they making the money? I mean, these are the things

00:15:58.820 I think we've got to get a handle on. And again, as these proliferate in the United States, every parent

00:16:02.800 in America has the right to know what drugs their kids are being prescribed, if the school is

00:16:08.020 recommending counseling or particularly hormonal therapy behind the parents' back. And I think,

00:16:13.640 Megan, this is why parents' rights, you know, we're just talking about basic things in schools

00:16:17.240 has become so important, so salient in our country. And as a parent of three kids myself,

00:16:22.340 three small kids, two of whom are school age, boy, I can totally relate.

00:16:26.180 Yeah. I mean, it's almost like there's an active effort to turn them. I've said many times,

00:16:30.580 we pulled our kids from this New York City private school, one of the best schools in the

00:16:33.820 country, because our two boys were being asked, our older boy, who was in fourth grade, on a weekly

00:16:39.460 basis, if he was sure he was still a boy. On a weekly basis, they had the boys raise their hands

00:16:45.260 if they were sure they were still a boy or less sure. I mean, these are kids who have no gender

00:16:49.180 confusion. It's being actively injected. And this is why I love the exchange that you wrote about it

00:16:54.660 in part in your book that you had with this lunatic Berkeley law professor. It really was one of those

00:17:01.300 things like the dress that people thought was either blue or yellow, right? Like if you looked

00:17:07.480 at this and you were like more, I would say sane, you would obviously say that you had the right.

00:17:13.640 And then the far left looked at this and they were like, yes, you go girl for the woman who was

00:17:17.680 challenging you. I'll play it for the audience and get you to weigh in. It's four.

00:17:21.720 You've referred to people with a capacity for pregnancy. Would that be women?

00:17:30.600 Many women, cis women have the capacity for pregnancy. Many cis women do not have the

00:17:34.940 capacity for pregnancy. There are also trans men who are capable of pregnancy, as well as

00:17:39.500 non-binary people who are capable of pregnancy. So this isn't really a women's rights issue.

00:17:44.400 We can recognize that this impacts women while also recognizing that it impacts other groups.

00:17:49.240 Those things are not mutually exclusive, Senator Hawley.

00:17:52.120 Oh, so your view is, is that the core of this, this right then is about what?

00:17:58.060 So, um, I want to recognize that your line of questioning, um, is transphobic. Um, and it

00:18:04.060 opens up trans people to violence by not recognizing that.

00:18:07.200 Wow. You're saying that I'm opening up people to violence by asking whether or not women are the

00:18:10.940 folks who can have pregnancies.

00:18:12.180 So I'm one, I want to note that one out of five transgender, uh, persons have attempted suicide.

00:18:19.200 So I think it's important.

00:18:20.540 Because of my line of questioning?

00:18:21.580 Because we can't talk about it?

00:18:22.980 Because denying that trans people exist and pretending not to know that they exist.

00:18:28.020 I'm denying that trans people exist by asking you if you're talking about women having pregnancies.

00:18:33.060 Do you believe that men can get pregnant?

00:18:36.020 No, I don't think men can get pregnant.

00:18:36.960 So you are denying that trans people exist?

00:18:38.620 And that leads to violence. Is this how you run your classroom? Are students allowed to

00:18:42.460 question you or are they also treated like this where they're told that they're opening up people

00:18:47.120 to violence by questioning?

00:18:47.980 Oh, we have a good time in my class. You should join.

00:18:50.120 I bet.

00:18:50.540 You might learn a lot.

00:18:51.640 Wow. I would learn a lot. I've learned a lot just in this exchange.

00:18:54.700 I know. Absolutely.

00:18:55.660 Extraordinary.

00:18:57.440 My God. So what does that exchange tell us that you had with this woman?

00:19:02.280 Well, what it tells you is just, again, how radical the left has become. And now it is a

00:19:06.480 tenet of faith with them. And I do mean faith, Megan, because it has nothing to do with facts,

00:19:10.800 that there's no such thing as gender. You know, that the category of woman doesn't exist and the

00:19:15.460 category of man doesn't exist. And if you challenge that, you say, hold on, hold on. There is such a

00:19:22.080 thing as a biological reality of womanhood and manhood and women get pregnant. Men don't get

00:19:28.240 pregnant. Then they melt down and say, you are promoting violence. I mean, it really is. It's an

00:19:33.200 authoritarian strand, Megan, where either you agree with them or you're not just a bad person.

00:19:38.380 You're a violent person and your views need to be suppressed. That's the ideology at work here.

00:19:44.360 But we just need to be, we need to tell the truth, which is this is an incredibly destructive ideology

00:19:49.220 to pretend that women don't exist and aren't real and that anybody can just opt into being a woman.

00:19:54.400 That's what gets us with biological men taking over women's sports. That's what gets us with

00:20:00.480 biological men in girls' locker rooms. That's what gets us to all of the dysfunction we see now where

00:20:07.300 women are threatened by these men in their spaces because the left now says there's no such thing

00:20:12.440 as a woman. And by the same token, there's no such thing as a man. It's crazy.

00:20:16.680 There was a picture online being celebrated by the left this weekend of a man, a biological man,

00:20:22.420 doped up on hormones, trying to cross over into womanhood, which is not possible,

00:20:27.240 actually quote breastfeeding a baby. Now there's no breast. This is a man. And on whatever hormones

00:20:35.180 this person is, I, I, my heart goes out to this poor baby who any mother could tell you when you

00:20:41.020 get a hungry baby to the breast and I breastfed three kids for a year each. They're so thankful.

00:20:46.320 They're starving. This is their form of nutrient. This is their form of life. And this cruel

00:20:52.240 person decides to, for his own kicks, put a baby, a hungry baby up against his chest and have it

00:20:59.860 search for milk when all it's going to get is hormones and drugs, where most of us wouldn't

00:21:05.020 even have a glass of wine and then breastfeed our babies. Nevermind pump ourselves full of

00:21:09.240 hormones and drugs and breasts. This is so disgusting. You say it's a destructive ideology.

00:21:14.780 It is. It's abusive. We have sat back for too long, Senator. We've let it happen. We started

00:21:20.280 out compassionate and it's taken over. And it's to the point now where children are the main victims.

00:21:25.480 What, what can be done?

00:21:27.980 Well, I think we've got to tell the truth, which is that there is such a thing as female and male,

00:21:32.620 right? That those categories, I mean, and just until like yesterday, everybody in world history

00:21:36.520 understood that there are men and there are women. And by the way, it's good to be a woman. It's good to

00:21:41.780 be a man. I think message number one to our kids needs to be the way that you are. Your biological

00:21:47.680 reality is good. You're a boy. That is awesome. You're a woman. That is awesome. We need to affirm

00:21:53.880 that in our kids. And then we also need to put up for them healthy role models about what it means to

00:21:58.580 be a good man, what it means to be a good woman. This is what my book on manhood is substantively about.

00:22:04.040 It's saying to men out there, listen, don't believe the left when they tell you that it's terrible to be a

00:22:09.100 man. And that just by being a man, you're somehow contributing to the destruction of the world.

00:22:13.900 That's not true. Be a good man. And let's talk about some role models about what it looks like to be a

00:22:18.880 good man, to be a father, to be a husband, to be a builder, to be a warrior, somebody who contributes

00:22:25.020 to society, who provides and protects for the people that he loves. So I think we've got to put forward

00:22:31.680 these great role models, tell these good stories about what it means to be a good man, what it means to be a

00:22:37.700 good woman. And then the men in particular, Megan, who are, let's admit it, young men, really adrift in

00:22:42.200 this country. I mean, you can just look at the stats, really adrift in this country from depression

00:22:46.220 to drug abuse, suicide. We need to tell them they are needed. We need them to contribute. We need them

00:22:54.060 to start a family. This country will be better if they will be involved and be responsible. And we need

00:22:59.880 to send that message to young men, especially. You know, I was out in South Dakota this past weekend.

00:23:04.700 I'd never been there before. It was amazing. Took the family, saw Mount Rushmore, which is just

00:23:09.500 breathtaking. That is a moment. I recommend it to everybody. Crazy Horse, that was great. I didn't

00:23:14.680 even know about the Crazy Horse Memorial, the big monument, also in stone, still underway, but

00:23:18.560 breathtaking. And we were watching the guys working on the Crazy Horse Memorial to this Native American.

00:23:24.280 It's been underway since the 1940s. And these guys are up there, Senator. They are like covered in

00:23:28.720 cement. They've got the saws. I mean, it is like you could lose a finger at any second. They are on top

00:23:34.180 of this, you know, mountain-like structure. And this is how they spend their days. They go out

00:23:40.000 there in zero-degree weather. They go out there in 90-degree weather. As Mike Rowe would say, you

00:23:45.060 know, these are men with dirty jobs. And they go home with dirt under their fingernails at the end

00:23:48.840 of the day. And they probably have a beer with their families. And there's some valor in it. There's

00:23:54.220 honor in it. But there is a certain segment of our population that would turn up its nose at those

00:23:59.160 men. And unless they had the right kind of Starbucks offer in Brooklyn and with the right

00:24:04.080 kind of university degree, would think that somehow they're beneath said judges. How do we get to that

00:24:11.120 point? Well, I think we've gotten here by 30, 40, and 50 years of the elites in this country sending

00:24:18.280 the message that, yeah, if you don't have a college degree, if you don't have a four-year degree from

00:24:21.960 the right place, preferably, Megan, you know, if you don't have that right degree, then you don't

00:24:26.840 really matter. You're wasting your life. These are the same people who have sent our good blue-collar

00:24:31.740 jobs in this country overseas for 30-plus years now. Watch those jobs go overseas to China, for

00:24:37.780 instance, to whom we've lost almost 4 million good-paying blue-collar jobs. So they've sent

00:24:43.440 the jobs overseas. They've denigrated men who don't have those kind of degrees. They've denigrated

00:24:47.360 blue-collar work. And they've denigrated the values that sustain blue-collar life. And then they wonder

00:24:52.460 why young men in particular are less hopeful for the future, are less interested in starting

00:24:57.920 families. These same people send the message to kids in schools that, you know, if you're not

00:25:03.520 aiming to be a white-collar worker and sit behind a desk, then you're not aiming high enough.

00:25:09.240 These same people send the message in school that if you're a boy who's rambunctious, you need to sit

00:25:13.180 down and shut up and you're part of the problem. You know, so early on, they start by trying to educate

00:25:18.280 our boys out of their boyishness. Listen, I've got two little boys. One is 10, one who's 8. My boys

00:25:23.360 are 110% boy. And I just, I know that there's nothing wrong with them, right? I don't want them

00:25:30.740 being told that they need to be different somehow in order to be accepted in polite society. But the

00:25:36.040 left has sent all of these messages. And to your question, they sent all of these messages. And over

00:25:40.200 time, that has had an effect where you now have young men who are adrift, young men who are increasingly

00:25:45.180 foregoing work, foregoing education, foregoing family life. And we need to send a different set

00:25:51.660 of messages as a society. We need to say to men, you're wanted, you're needed. We need you to be

00:25:57.440 husbands. We need you to be fathers. We need you to work. And that your life can have a tremendous,

00:26:03.580 tremendous impact for good if you'll do those things. You know, I know it's not exactly on point,

00:26:08.460 but the whole situation with Jordan Neely and Daniel Penny on the New York City subway is coming

00:26:14.900 to mind. Daniel Penny is the Marine, former Marine who got this angry, threatening passenger in a

00:26:21.100 headlock on board this subway train who had been threatening Daniel Penny, says Daniel's lawyer,

00:26:25.920 says other passengers on the, on the train and others on that train and stood up and did something

00:26:31.140 about it. And every woman I know, I mean, every woman I know has said, I would pray to have Daniel

00:26:37.380 Penny on my subway train. I wanted Daniel Penny every single subway ride I ever take that we've

00:26:42.400 had so many instances in which we felt threatened. And we'd know, we know we would lose the fight if

00:26:47.140 God forbid, one of these angry passengers who was clearly homeless, clearly on drugs came for us,

00:26:52.620 we'd be dead. And yet he's now been charged with second degree manslaughter, could face up to 15 years

00:26:58.420 in prison if a jury convicts him. And I can't help but think that it's related. I mean, the left

00:27:04.020 probably thinks he's a toxic man, right? That it's his toxic masculinity trying to be the protector,

00:27:08.540 he overdid it, or his racism, we've heard that too. But that's, that instinct to protect others

00:27:13.980 is, is good. We should be nurturing it, not trying to snuff it out with criminal charges.

00:27:19.500 Yeah, exactly right, Megan, we should be nurturing it. We should be saying to young men, listen,

00:27:22.960 it is a good thing to protect other people. In fact, our message to men overall ought to be,

00:27:27.460 your purpose in life is to go out there and to provide, to protect, and if necessary,

00:27:32.920 to sacrifice your life for others. Sacrifice your life for the people that you love, for your wife,

00:27:37.940 for your children, for your family, to those in need, whether you know them or not. And I, you know,

00:27:42.580 this particular situation in New York, I just can't help but observe that we seem to have everything

00:27:47.100 so topsy-turvy. I mean, here we have a guy who is trying to intervene and help, and the left is all

00:27:52.280 worked up about that, wants him treated as a criminal. And listen, I don't know all the facts,

00:27:55.940 the criminal justice system will play it out. But the bottom line is, why is there not outrage among the

00:28:00.800 left about the crime that is sweeping that city? Why is there not outrage about the situation that

00:28:06.120 passengers on the subway are placed in every single day, or folks who are just walking around the

00:28:11.120 streets who are unsafe? I mean, it's just, it's incredible that we're supposed to overlook that,

00:28:15.940 but then we're supposed to be extremely concerned about private citizens who actually want to do

00:28:20.520 something about it. I mean, this to me is just, it's a bizarre situation and set of circumstances that

00:28:26.460 the left has led us toward. I want to say something about toxic masculinity. You mentioned that phrase,

00:28:31.040 Megan, to the left, and they're open about this. Toxic masculinity is all masculinity. You know,

00:28:37.040 I quote in the book, a social scientist who says that talking about healthy masculinity

00:28:41.360 is like talking about healthy cancer. You know, that all masculinity is bad and that we need to

00:28:46.980 encourage, we need to push men to be androgynous. And really, that's their message to women too,

00:28:52.160 right? I mean, there's no such thing as male and female. Just be androgynous consumers, everybody,

00:28:57.480 and then choose your own adventure. You know, do whatever you want. Just don't rock the boat.

00:29:01.100 Don't interrupt, you know, the elites running our society. Nothing could be more weird, dangerous,

00:29:07.380 and ultimately toxic than that message. To be a man is a good thing. And we need to tell men,

00:29:12.960 we need you to step up. We need you to take responsibility. We need you to provide and protect.

00:29:17.720 If you do that, you can be a tremendous force for good. You know, it goes back in part to civics

00:29:22.960 in school and the way we in school and we in society are messaging to our boys, you know,

00:29:29.000 what the future holds and what's possible for them. I think about, I was born in 1970 and was

00:29:35.080 raised, you know, that's what, 1970 is what, 25 years after the end of World War II. My God,

00:29:39.260 I'm old. But it wasn't that long after the end of World War II. It was right before the Cold War.

00:29:44.880 And we were feeling patriotic. We were feeling proud to be Americans. Yes,

00:29:50.040 we had Jimmy Carter. So there was that whole malaise situation. But as far as America versus

00:29:53.600 the world, you were proud to be an American. And we were on the heels of these enormous sacrifices

00:29:59.760 that our men had made, you know, kids lying about how old they were to go sign up,

00:30:04.120 you know, to fight the Germans. And in school, we would say the pledge, there was a uniform patriotism

00:30:10.080 and an understanding that the ones who would be fighting for us would be the men.

00:30:13.000 They would be the ones to go off and protect the country and the women and the children.

00:30:16.960 And there was an order to it. And there was a loveliness to it. And now you point out in the

00:30:21.460 book, what are our young people doing now? They're sitting there. The way you put it in the book is,

00:30:25.460 what are these young men doing with their time? Screens, leisure, horn. My God, that's exactly right.

00:30:33.240 And that's what the left wants. I mean, this is the thing that gets me, Megan, is that

00:30:37.000 what the left is saying. When I say the left, I mean, you know, the media. I mean, certainly the

00:30:42.300 politicians and much of our entertainment industry. What's the message they're sending

00:30:46.900 to young men? Just, you know, sit in your cubicle, sit in your parents' basement,

00:30:52.780 spend some time on your screen. Don't go out and try to help people. Don't go out and do anything

00:30:57.960 that's deemed, quote unquote, masculine. That would be threatening. That would be disruptive.

00:31:01.200 No, no, no, no, no. Just be a consumer. Consume some entertainment online. And the point of that

00:31:07.960 is, is that what we're seeing are the effects of that. And what is the effect of that message? It is

00:31:12.440 record high numbers of young men who say they are depressed. Record high numbers who are committing

00:31:17.020 suicide. Record high numbers who are suffering from drug abuse and alcohol abuse. So we see the

00:31:23.080 results of the last message. And it is dysfunction and disorder all the way around. And it's not good

00:31:27.660 for anybody. It's not good for men. It's not good for women. It's not good for children.

00:31:31.200 It's not good for society who end up having to support a lot of these men who ought to be

00:31:35.660 working, frankly, as they get old enough to do so. So I think the message we've got to send is just

00:31:41.080 exactly the opposite. It's turn off the screen, get up out of your parents' basement, go get a job,

00:31:48.060 go get married, go start a family. And you know what? By doing those things, you change the world.

00:31:53.960 You become a force for good. You leave a legacy. And we need you to do that. That's the message of hope,

00:32:00.300 I think, but also of challenge and responsibility that men want to hear. They want to hear it,

00:32:04.480 Megan. And we've got to challenge them to rise up and be the best they can be because this country

00:32:09.500 needs it.

00:32:10.580 And what I'm going to say is in no way diminishing of women and their opportunities. But

00:32:15.000 we do need, we as a society need our men to be our protectors, to be our heroes, to be our warriors,

00:32:24.020 to be, in many instances, our providers. And I say that as the primary wage earner in my home.

00:32:29.900 That doesn't change my relationship with my husband. He's all those things in various ways.

00:32:34.580 I need that. My kids need that. Our society needs that. That is part of the fire that used to get

00:32:40.940 men out of bed in the morning. And now it's being snuffed out as some sort of a bad value.

00:32:46.040 Right. That's exactly right. And men want to be those things, Megan. I mean, I can say it as a

00:32:51.380 man myself. I can say it as my wife and I, as I said, are raising two little boys. You know,

00:32:55.540 these guys, I can see it already in my boys. They want to go out and blaze a trail. They want to go

00:32:59.800 have adventure. I want them as, and this is one of the reasons I wrote the book, is thinking about

00:33:04.060 my boys and thinking about how do I do my part as their dad to encourage them to grow up to be strong,

00:33:10.640 good men. And my message to them is you take that energy and you take that excitement and you take

00:33:16.040 that spirit of trailblazing and you channel that towards the good of others. As you grow up,

00:33:20.820 you channel that towards providing for the woman you love, providing for the children you have,

00:33:25.140 providing for your neighborhood and your church and your community. And we need men who are going

00:33:29.500 to do that, Megan. And we need to stop telling them that if they want to do those things,

00:33:33.920 that's somehow destructive or that's somehow toxic or that they're not needed. They are needed.

00:33:38.780 I'll just mention one of the thing here. You know, the data totally backs up your point,

00:33:42.560 by the way. One of the reasons that men are getting married less is that women aren't stupid.

00:33:48.480 Women don't want to marry men. This is, I'm just pointing the data here. Women don't want to marry

00:33:52.060 men who aren't going to contribute something. You know, they don't want to marry a guy who's not

00:33:56.600 going to actually contribute toward the marriage. A woman doesn't want to have a family and think,

00:34:00.860 I got to provide for everybody myself. He's going to do nothing. He's like another child in the

00:34:05.460 family. They don't want that. So as men do less, they become less marriageable. My message to men

00:34:10.960 is, come on, you know, this is the time for you to step up, to go out there in the adventure of

00:34:15.840 your life, which is really an adventure of serving, giving, and providing.

00:34:20.440 As Paris Hilton used to say, not hot, not hot. I'll say one other thing and then I'll take a quick

00:34:27.320 break, but I know you met your wife while clerking for Chief Justice Roberts, right?

00:34:33.760 That's right.

00:34:34.780 So that's, I mean, that's just another example. Like, so there's two very, very brilliant people.

00:34:39.960 Your wife must be a gunner intellectually and professionally. Married you, you're obviously

00:34:45.300 the better known partner in the relationship. But my point is simply that even hard-charging women

00:34:51.400 like your wife, like me, I think want a man who is a protector, who's a provider in various ways,

00:34:58.120 who will be the hero of our family. Like it's, those values are not inconsistent with getting

00:35:03.900 married to a woman who has all those things in her own way, has her own dynamic career and life

00:35:08.360 in front of her. And yours, your family is one of those examples. That's, that's totally true.

00:35:14.060 And I just think in my own experience, Megan, I mean, strength likes strength, right? I mean,

00:35:19.040 my wife is a strong woman. She is an independent woman. And that's why I married her. I mean,

00:35:25.060 so there's something about, it's just not true. That's like, oh, one partner's strong and the

00:35:28.280 other partner's weak. I mean, that's not true at all. That's not been my experience. That's not

00:35:32.160 been my observation. That's not true in your marriage. As you've said, it's not true of people

00:35:36.120 I know. I think that to say to men, we need you to be stronger is not to say to their partners and

00:35:42.760 wives, we need you to be less. Quite the contrary, a strong man empowers his wife and vice versa.

00:35:49.040 So the message, it's not like there's a limited sum of strength out there. And the more a man

00:35:52.840 takes, the less the women has, the woman has. Totally. Totally. All right. Stand by. Senator

00:35:56.960 Holly stays with us. A quick break and then back to Senator Holly. Don't go away.

00:36:05.880 Now you, of course, are not without your critics and the biggest line of attack I can see on your

00:36:10.040 book, which seems well-spirited to me and much needed, is that you were not the powerful manly

00:36:17.500 men when, uh, on January 6th, you gave the thumbs up to the protesters. And then as your critics would

00:36:23.440 say, ran, ran out of the Capitol when things got dangerous, what are they missing?

00:36:29.660 Oh, that lie has been totally disproved, Megan, by the footage, the actual footage from that day.

00:36:35.940 But listen, if the question is, do I regret what I did on January 6th and the stand that I took on

00:36:42.620 that day? I don't. You and I have talked about this at length. And my view is, is that I did file

00:36:47.720 an objection to the Pennsylvania electors on that day. Even after the riot, I stood by that objection.

00:36:53.920 And I think it's wrong for states to change their voting procedures and their voting rules in the

00:36:59.840 midst of the election, which is what happened in the state of Pennsylvania. So even questions of fraud

00:37:04.880 aside, I mean, put that to one side. My objection is based on the fact as an attorney, as a constitutional

00:37:10.160 lawyer, you don't change the voting in the midst of the voting. And that's what happened in

00:37:14.860 Pennsylvania, affecting tens of thousands of votes, maybe more. They also did mail-in

00:37:18.700 balloting that isn't allowed by their state constitution. So I stand by that. I stand by

00:37:23.260 what I did on that day. I do not regret, uh, signaling the raising, raising my fist to those

00:37:27.880 protesters who were protesting peacefully. This was hours before the riot started. I don't condone

00:37:32.440 the riot at all, but nor do I say, oh, well, because of the riot, if you were there on January 6th,

00:37:38.340 if you were there protesting peacefully, you're a terrible person. You should be carted off to

00:37:42.220 jail. No way. There's a right to protest. So I don't regret that at all. I don't regret my actions

00:37:47.060 on the day. I didn't run from anything. That's totally a lie. And I stand by my objection, which

00:37:52.220 I went right back in, even after the riot, filed it, stood by it, voted for it. And I would do all of

00:37:58.000 that again. Well, the left is very against people crossing lines. They shouldn't cross unless it happens

00:38:02.580 to be our Southern border. And then it's totally fine. And it's totally fine. Um, it's amazing to

00:38:09.340 me. Can we talk about this for a minute? Because you had president Biden, um, secretary Mayorkas out

00:38:15.180 there kind of like, Hey, look at, look at the numbers. Haven't been as bad Thursday, Friday,

00:38:19.000 as people predicted, you know, ball in the end zone, totally ignoring the fact that we are still in the

00:38:26.920 midst of a genuine immigration crisis. All the centers are overwhelmed with people. We hit records.

00:38:32.040 We should never have hit last week with 10,000 people pouring in a day. Um, and so now yes,

00:38:37.800 with Texas, uh, governor Greg Abbott sending a couple thousand national guard troops to the border

00:38:43.240 and even Joe Biden sending some folks down to the border and Mexico being asked to step it up

00:38:47.660 in the wake of 42 being lifted. We didn't do as badly over the last few days, but what do you make

00:38:53.060 of this victory lap being taken by the Biden administration? Oh, it's totally absurd. And also it's

00:38:58.000 obscene. It's both absurd and obscene. First of all, Megan, just facts, right? Monday,

00:39:02.460 Tuesday, Wednesday of last week, leading up to the lifting of title 42. Every day we saw record

00:39:08.900 numbers of illegals crossing the border record numbers. So for them to say that, Oh, it wasn't

00:39:13.940 quite so bad on Thursday. Therefore success, success is just ridiculous. Just ridiculous. Number one,

00:39:19.140 number two, since Joe Biden has come to office, over 350,000 children have been smuggled across our

00:39:28.520 southern border. About a hundred thousand of them have now just been lost by this administration.

00:39:35.060 And we now know because of great reporting done by actually the New York times sold into child labor,

00:39:40.940 sold into human trafficking, sold into modern day slavery. That's their record. That's the victory

00:39:47.380 lap that they're doing is kids being exploited in this country. The biggest child smuggling operation

00:39:54.000 in American history, the worst child labor conditions in a century, thanks to Joe Biden.

00:40:00.860 And they think it's a victory. I say it's a total moral outrage. And we're just at the tip of this.

00:40:05.680 We're just at the very beginning of what we're going to see as they now really completely open the

00:40:10.200 border. We've seen Megan that now they're just letting people in with no court dates. I mean,

00:40:13.880 who knows when they'll ever be processed, if they'll ever be processed at all. It is a moral

00:40:18.420 travesty. One final point for my state, which is not technically geographically on the border.

00:40:24.780 We're still a border state because of the drugs that flow into our schools in the state of Missouri,

00:40:30.040 into our neighborhoods in the state of Missouri. That is because of Joe Biden's border policies.

00:40:35.380 It's a travesty. The problem is that, first of all, the overcrowding at the centers right now is

00:40:41.380 out of control. I mean, the numbers are really devastating. Fox's Bill Malujan was giving some reports on,

00:40:47.040 just for example, Border Patrol Central Processing Center in El Paso. They have a max capacity of

00:40:53.160 around a thousand, but there were 6,000 there on Friday. The room capacity is at 120, but they had

00:40:59.220 750. And as you point out right now, all these people get released into the United States and just

00:41:05.320 told to go away, like honor system, come back at some point for an immigration hearing. Okay, bye.

00:41:10.080 Well, sure, that's going to happen. But the border patrol that's down there right now says

00:41:14.880 the lull is temporary. Trust us. When they realize that the app that the Biden administration is

00:41:20.760 telling them to use doesn't work because the app's been out there for a while, they'll come back.

00:41:25.600 When the Texas National Guard goes back to what it normally does, which is not patrol the border,

00:41:30.220 they're going to come back. There has been no real solution here.

00:41:34.360 Well, do you just look at the numbers in the aggregate, Megan? They're absolutely,

00:41:37.100 it's stunning. I mean, you could just take the overall numbers of illegal migrants crossing the

00:41:41.380 border in the last two years. And this is when Title 42 was still kind of in place.

00:41:46.240 Now that it is gone, I think we can expect to see a continuing massive surge. I mean,

00:41:51.600 if anything, we've become desensitized to just how many people have moved across the border. And I just

00:41:56.500 want to make a point about who benefits from this. It's the cartels. We often talk about the chaos at

00:42:01.600 the border, and it is chaotic on our side, not on the other side. On the other side, the cartels

00:42:07.180 control 100% of the border. Nobody moves across that border without the cartels getting a payment.

00:42:13.320 No child is smuggled without payment made to the cartels. So who's really running the show here?

00:42:19.620 The cartels are. Who's benefiting from all this? The cartels are. Who's sending those drugs into my

00:42:24.260 state where fentanyl is currently the number one cause of death for most Missourians? Almost all of

00:42:30.200 that comes across the southern border. Who brings it across the border? The cartels do. And it's just

00:42:34.900 going to get much, much worse. All right. I have a tough question for you on everything we've been

00:42:39.320 discussing. So the border was much more secure when Donald Trump was president. You know that,

00:42:45.040 and so do I, and so does any honest broker. Donald Trump is not in favor of these puberty blockers

00:42:50.420 and cross-sex hormones for kids and all of that nonsense and would fight these wokesters as he did

00:42:55.160 when he was in office. Ron DeSantis, too, for that matter. But the question's about Trump.

00:42:59.700 So I couldn't help but think of him many times when I was reading your book because Trump's

00:43:06.600 strength is on policy. I think it's hard to make the case that his strength is on character and

00:43:11.620 decency. And I thought about it when you wrote about your dad and you wrote about your dad saying,

00:43:16.580 you say, he disdained men who blustered and strutted. He laughed at false bravado. He instructed

00:43:23.660 me as a small boy when I was just beginning to play sports and hunt and enter the world of men

00:43:27.280 that character is what counts. Live with character, he taught me, and you'll never have

00:43:31.560 anything to prove to anyone. That's how he wore his manhood, easily. He showed me that manhood is

00:43:36.900 not play acting or social performance. It's an invitation to character that God extends by his

00:43:43.160 grace. And my note to myself reads, must discuss Trump. So how do you square the man who unquestionably,

00:43:51.760 I think in your view and mine, offered us so many great policies that kept us safer,

00:43:55.180 that kept our kids safer, but the Access Hollywood tape, the comments about women,

00:44:01.560 whatever, we could go down the list, the narcissism, the self-aggrandizement, you know,

00:44:06.580 all of it. How do you square that? And how do the voters square that coming up on 2024?

00:44:11.320 Well, how the voters will square it, I'll leave to the voters, Megan. I do think that Donald Trump

00:44:15.260 will be the nominee of the Republican party. I mean, I just think that's inevitable. I think he's,

00:44:19.700 he's going to be the nominee. And I think that the general, and I guess Joe Biden is going to be

00:44:25.040 the nominee. I mean, by all appearances. So I guess we're going to have a Biden-Trump rematch.

00:44:30.420 And I'll leave the voters to decide, I know where I'll be in that, but I'll leave the voters to

00:44:35.580 decide and to weigh their respective merits or demerits. I will just say though, on the point

00:44:39.520 about role models, I mean, on the one hand, yeah, we don't ask our, we don't elect our public

00:44:44.920 officials to be elders in a church or Pope or what have you. But I do think, and this is one of the

00:44:51.060 reasons I wrote the book, that just as a father and as somebody who has a job representing the

00:44:56.820 people of Missouri in the Senate, I do think that we have an obligation to try and be the best men

00:45:01.500 we can be. And listen, nobody's perfect. I'm certainly not. I mean, I tell some stories from

00:45:05.040 my own life in the book about where, you know, trying to figure it out as a father, not doing

00:45:09.300 as well as I could have as a husband. I mean, you know, so if you're looking for perfection,

00:45:13.360 don't look to me. But I think the call to men should be, listen, nobody's perfect.

00:45:17.420 We don't expect anybody to be perfect. I'm a Christian. You know, I mean, we know that

00:45:21.020 perfection, the only one person was perfect, right? And it's not me. But we do want to say

00:45:25.800 to men, listen, you can still and should strive to be good, strive to be better, strive to be a

00:45:32.620 role model for your kids, strive to leave a legacy. And I think that's something that every man should

00:45:37.140 aspire to, including our public figures. You know, the case against Trump on character sounds pretty

00:45:43.060 good until you look across the aisle and you see some of the stuff that Joe Biden has done.

00:45:46.780 I don't remember a video of Trump sniffing young women's hair all the time, like inappropriately

00:45:52.420 getting in their faces. You know, Biden's got his own allegations when it comes to women, too. It's

00:45:57.680 like and not to mention the racism stuff. There was just a comment he made the other day about how

00:46:02.460 white people are, you know, the white terrorism is the biggest thing we need to worry about white

00:46:06.260 supremacy. And I'm not just saying that because I'm at a black, historically black college.

00:46:10.120 He said, I mean, like he injects race into everything inappropriately, gets a total pass

00:46:16.260 for it. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe it's the process that just attracts

00:46:20.540 the wrong kind of people to the battle at the very top. I you tell me.

00:46:27.400 Well, I think that your point is, is that we we're going to choose the voters will get to choose

00:46:31.460 and we will weigh the merits and demerits of the candidates that were given. And like I said,

00:46:36.120 I mean, there's no question where I'm going to be. I mean, I think your points about the

00:46:40.060 former president, his policies, I like much of what he did. I overlapped with him for two

00:46:44.300 years in the Senate, the last two years of his presidency, and I supported many of his

00:46:47.500 policies, not everything, but but many of them. And I think if you want to talk about making

00:46:52.400 America strong again, about bringing back those blue collar jobs for men who we were talking

00:46:56.760 about earlier, the former president is a strong, strong platform on that. So is he perfect?

00:47:02.000 No. But again, you know, am I perfect? No. So the voters will make their choice there.

00:47:07.620 But I would just say that, that again, to the to the men out there, putting aside, it's

00:47:12.860 always easy. Let me just put it this way, I guess, Megan, I would it's always easy, I

00:47:16.120 think, for people to say, like, well, you know, let's talk about this guy who he's not

00:47:19.840 he's not doing as good as he should. Let's talk about that guy. I just say to the men out

00:47:22.620 there, why don't why don't we why don't you and I start with ourselves, man? Why don't we

00:47:26.280 look at ourselves and say, where can we be better? You know, you can always look at somebody

00:47:30.120 in public and say, ah, they should do this. They should do this. But what about us? You

00:47:34.000 know, I mean, what about what about you as a husband? What about you as a father? What

00:47:37.960 about you as a as a worker provider? What about you as a as a warrior, as a builder? Are

00:47:42.960 you doing those things? Or can where can you get better? And I just think that we should

00:47:46.920 we should say to each other, hey, let's hold each other accountable. Let's get stronger.

00:47:51.420 Let's be the best men we can be. That's how we'll change the world. Not them. That's right.

00:47:56.400 Not him. You. Senator Josh Hawley, thank you. The book is manhood. Go check it out. All the

00:48:01.620 best to you. Thank you. Last month, we told you about a story out of the University of

00:48:09.100 Wyoming, where several members of the Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority brought a lawsuit over

00:48:14.600 the admins of a transgender woman to their chapter, a biological man. Several disturbing claims were

00:48:21.980 raised in the lawsuit, including alleged behavior by this biological man and pressure from the

00:48:28.700 leadership to admit said man. Today, three of the women are speaking out for the first time to share

00:48:34.800 their story and why they decided to take a stand. They join us along with their lawyer and other

00:48:39.440 members joining the lawsuit from the Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority. Joining me now, Jalen, Ellie and

00:48:47.140 Hannah, along with their attorney, Cassie Craven of Longhorn Law and other members of KKG who have

00:48:53.540 joined. Ladies, thank you all so much for being here. I really appreciate it. I know it's scary to

00:48:57.800 speak out on something like this, and I know you began this journey hoping to keep just your names

00:49:04.000 out of it. You did not want to become activists, but they made you. I mean, the court basically said

00:49:11.120 you have to reveal your full identity, and I really hope this is turning into sort of a Riley Gaines

00:49:17.140 moment for you. I really hope you can see throughout this journey that there is real power in speaking

00:49:22.780 out and that while you might feel like the minority and they're going to call you names in the start,

00:49:28.340 the journey itself can be empowering and you find out sooner rather than later you're speaking for

00:49:32.800 the masses, not for a minority. That's how I see all of you. Thank you for doing what you're doing.

00:49:37.940 Okay, so let's just start with, it's just this past fall, this all unfolded, September of 2022,

00:49:44.340 and you join Kappa Kappa Gamma. I think you ladies were already in Kappa Kappa Gamma.

00:49:49.720 And then suddenly there's a guy who says he's a woman, but has done almost nothing as far as I can

00:50:00.420 see to make himself look female. His name is Artemis. He is six foot two and 260 pounds.

00:50:07.940 Before we get it started, we pulled a clip of Artemis from back during the COVID lockdowns,

00:50:12.660 speaking on camera at some event, just so the audience can get a feel for what you were seeing

00:50:17.500 applying to KKG. Here's a bit of Artemis.

00:50:21.060 Communicating with friends, putting that, you know, social network that you have

00:50:26.760 from in-person to an online format would be extraordinarily beneficial. And I wish that I

00:50:36.780 had developed that better, but living in a new environment, it was really difficult.

00:50:43.400 Okay, that is 10 months before this person was admitted to Kappa Kappa Gamma or tried to get in.

00:50:52.360 So you went through the normal pledge situation. And do you remember, this is for any of you,

00:50:57.460 do you remember Artemis coming around, like trying to get a bid from the sorority?

00:51:01.720 I was told, like, he went through formal recruitment, obviously. And then the individual

00:51:10.820 reached out to our recruitment team and said that he was interested in coming back through again.

00:51:16.180 So you didn't, he didn't get in the normal way. I mean, I remember back in my day, I pledged

00:51:20.660 tridel. And, you know, you had to go through the whole, like they give you a bid. And if you get a

00:51:26.460 bid, then you come back and you have to go through the pledging six weeks or whatever it is to get in.

00:51:30.720 And so he did not get a bid originally. And then there's this, unbeknownst to me,

00:51:34.520 there's a backdoor to get into the sorority. And Hannah, you were just mentioning how he tried

00:51:38.800 through the front door. What's the backdoor to get in? So we have a backdoor formal recruitment

00:51:43.940 process. That's not our formal recruitment. In this process, not all the girls get the

00:51:49.960 opportunity to vote. And this just shows another example of how Kappa leadership failed us because

00:51:55.440 they didn't give us the opportunity to speak our mind when normally we would have been able to

00:51:59.620 during our formal recruitment process. And not only did they push this through, but we had two votes

00:52:06.120 on the individual. And then between the votes, the second vote was not anonymous. And the

00:52:12.600 upperclassmen were using threatening techniques, literally knocking on doors to make sure everyone

00:52:18.320 had voted. That was that meeting that night. And the vote was also-

00:52:21.620 So when he comes back through, stand by one second. So when he comes back through for this

00:52:25.380 informal process, the backdoor, he got rejected the first time. And I'm using he just to be clear

00:52:30.400 because it's just too confusing if we go with his preferred pronouns, which to be honest with you,

00:52:35.000 it's unclear to me whether this person genuinely has gender dysphoria at all. So this is a biological

00:52:41.140 man, so we can use he for this segment. When he came back through, Ella, you were just going to say

00:52:47.980 something. Were you like, I mean, honestly, be honest, were you like, what is going on here? This

00:52:52.280 is a woman's only, like, why are we entertaining this? What was your reaction to this very clearly

00:52:57.460 biological man who's not making any pretense about the fact that he's a biological man trying to pledge

00:53:01.720 kappa? So initially it was just shocking and a bit of a slap in the face to those of us that have spent so

00:53:09.660 much time and invested so much into this organization. And so it was really discouraging to see that the vote

00:53:16.960 was not announced, that no one was told about it in advance. And so there were certain people that

00:53:22.780 were not at that meeting. And if they weren't at the meeting, they were discluded from voting,

00:53:28.880 which goes against the bylaws. Which I also have to add on to that, that we were promised a sisterhood.

00:53:34.420 We joined kappa just because we were hoping that we would all grow as leaders and we'd have this

00:53:39.220 opportunity. And kappa headquarters has stripped that away from us.

00:53:42.880 Why was it important to be part of a sisterhood?

00:53:45.400 Our house is really diverse too. And that's the only thing, like, we have so many majors,

00:53:49.580 so many states. You know, we're not all from Wyoming. We're not all the same major.

00:53:54.040 So up until now, like, all we had was two X chromosomes keeping us together.

00:53:58.960 And what was it about, like, being part of a sisterhood that was appealing to you?

00:54:04.540 Being a part of a sisterhood was appealing. I know that both my mother and sister were part of

00:54:09.360 sororities. And I just wanted to be a part of that because we help each other grow. And there's

00:54:14.960 just really an importance to women's only spaces that you just can't understand what it's like

00:54:20.020 until you live in the house. But we live in a very intimate space that we get to share. And that's

00:54:24.160 why we're here today is because we're trying to preserve that space.

00:54:27.980 Right. And I'm sure, I mean, you knew about the trans situation and the craze sweeping the nation

00:54:34.620 before you got to college. But was there ever even a thought that they would be letting biological

00:54:39.800 men into a sorority when you pledged kappa? I was pledged into the sorority in fall of 2020.

00:54:49.820 And at that time, we were assured that there was no open process for those that are not biologically

00:54:59.340 female. And so I would not have joined the sorority to begin with if I knew that this is what it was

00:55:05.460 going to come to. Right. Now, do any of you, I'm looking at the seven of you, do any of you live

00:55:12.160 in the Kappa Kappa Gamma house? Raise your hand if you live in the house. Oh, okay. So quite a few of

00:55:18.100 you live in the house. So that can lead to, you know, and did lead to some very awkward and uncomfortable

00:55:24.100 situations if you have a biological man there. That's just the truth of it. Even one who is trying

00:55:29.200 to look female, nevermind someone like this. So can you just expand? I'll go to you on this, Hannah,

00:55:33.960 on this vote. So what happened was the more senior members of the sorority organized the vote to let

00:55:39.720 this guy in without calling all the sisters there and saying on Friday, we're having a vote on this

00:55:45.780 backdoor applicant be there. That didn't happen. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So if you weren't at that

00:55:52.220 meeting that night, you didn't get a vote. And that's never how we've really done it. Jalen can talk

00:55:57.480 more on the inside officer side of things, but as someone who had no idea it was happening to begin

00:56:04.080 with. So we were caught off guard. That's just a scary situation. Then the comments made to us by

00:56:09.940 the senior members were very scary and intimidating. Then when they were coming around, making sure you

00:56:16.240 had voted after you had to put your email in the form, it was just a really scary, intimidating

00:56:21.840 situation to be in. And I just want to say, oh, sorry. It is in our bylaws that every member is

00:56:29.320 supposed to vote. And this just shows how we were shut down in this situation because not all of us

00:56:34.780 got to give our vote and we were told to shut up. We were silenced in this situation. We were told we

00:56:40.580 were not allowed to speak. We were not allowed to discuss our feelings. We just had to sit there

00:56:44.440 and listen. And honestly, I just can't believe this ever happened. Jalen, is that because they knew

00:56:49.420 they didn't have the votes? Yes. I think that's why we were also shocked. And in the moment, we

00:56:55.740 didn't say anything because we were silenced and we were told that we were not allowed to say

00:56:58.940 anything because girls got shamed if we had different opinions. And this opinion was forced

00:57:03.380 upon us. We were literally told, if you don't agree with this, if you don't like this, your values

00:57:09.320 don't align with Kappas and you should just leave. Wow. Who was telling you that?

00:57:13.980 At the time, it was chapter leadership, but we've heard it from national leadership as well.

00:57:20.300 Can I just ask for those of us who aren't that up to it, but chapter leadership would be

00:57:24.300 a woman who oversees from like, it's not a college student.

00:57:29.780 It is a college student. Yes. It is. Oh, it is.

00:57:32.880 That actually has a leadership position within the cap or within our sorority. And so that would

00:57:38.020 include. Is it Maya DeLauro? Is that who it is? Maya DeLauro?

00:57:40.900 She was not president at the time. And there has just been a lot of other things that happened.

00:57:46.840 And the situation has changed because we had recent elections and it was more of the past

00:57:51.900 leadership that we had more of the issues with. And it was just really hard because it seemed like

00:57:56.960 people were utilizing their power within the chapter in order to further their own agenda.

00:58:01.620 And what we've seen too, Megan, is a shift. I mean, you have these individuals at the high levels

00:58:06.840 of the fraternal organization at headquarters, pushing a woke agenda onto a group of young

00:58:12.800 women when they in fact do not go home every night to a strange man in their home. That's

00:58:18.580 six, two and over 250 pounds. Yet they projected this onto these girls to have to live with every

00:58:24.400 single day. Oh my God. I mean, it's just, it must've been so incredibly uncomfortable. And so how many

00:58:30.580 of the senior girls, senior leadership girls within the sorority were, would you say were pressuring

00:58:38.120 the girls to vote? Yes. To let this guy in. I would say that our senior leadership was the

00:58:44.760 driving force, but it was all because our Kappa national headquarters was telling them what to say

00:58:49.360 and how to act. And they were giving them the advice and encouraging them to say that we were not

00:58:55.020 aligning with Kappa's values and Kappa headquarters was not answering us themselves. We emailed,

00:59:01.140 texted, and we did not hear a response back. When this leadership told us that we are uncomfortable,

00:59:06.060 we were to reach out to them and that they would help us feel comfortable and make us a safe place.

00:59:10.900 And instead we were just blatantly ignored. Their phone lines were actually shut off for three days.

00:59:17.200 You're lucky you weren't told to go to therapy, like the women who objected on the UPenn swim team to

00:59:22.400 Leah Thomas swimming with the women, right? I mean, that's really the next step in this whole drama

00:59:26.960 in most instances in which women find their voices. They're told that they're, they're nuts. And what

00:59:32.580 they really need is a therapist as opposed to, um, their, you know, reality-based perceptions of life.

00:59:38.240 So, okay. So he gets in and, and you point out they, the vote was supposed to be anonymous,

00:59:43.760 but it wasn't because they made you enter your emails and they're telling you, if you vote,

00:59:48.440 no, you're a bigot. You're, you're a bigot. If you vote, no, and you're,

00:59:51.240 you don't align with Kappa's values. So what can you just, can somebody walk me through when you

00:59:56.600 found out he, he got in, talk me through that moment. What was that like?

01:00:02.100 Honestly, it was just extreme disappointment and it felt like our values and our, um, concerns were

01:00:08.420 not valued over someone else's. It felt like our voices didn't matter. And that's why I'm here today

01:00:13.800 because I want to stand up for women's spaces. And this is the women's right fight for our generation.

01:00:18.420 And I want to make that very clear for past, present, and future members of sororities,

01:00:23.780 because sororities go so beyond your college experience. After we graduate, we get to become

01:00:28.120 alumni. And as alumni, we stay connected and we have this outreach. So this is so much more important

01:00:32.840 than just an organization that we're part of in college. And that's why I'm here today to advocate

01:00:36.640 for the future generation of girls behind me as well.

01:00:39.340 Yes. Jalen, right on, right on all of you. I know it's hard, but let me encourage you

01:00:46.060 in what you're doing here and in other areas of your life. Taking great risks is a great thing,

01:00:52.200 male or female. And it leads, whether it works out or it doesn't, uh, to resilience and greater

01:00:57.200 strength. And this is the women's rights issue of your time. You're right. And if you guys don't

01:01:01.940 lead it like the Riley Gaines way, who will, right? I mean, I I'll help, but it's much more

01:01:08.140 persuasive coming from people who have been actually subjected to the negative consequences

01:01:12.640 of this woke ideology being thrust down your throats in the name of tolerance, tolerance for

01:01:16.860 everyone except you tolerance for the biological men, but not you, not the biological women. It's

01:01:23.720 absurd. So let's get into, um, some of the allegations that are in the complaint about

01:01:29.500 what he then did, because this was not, this would have been bad enough. I'm sure

01:01:33.140 Carrie would have represented you from this point forward. But once Artemis got into, sorry, Cassie,

01:01:39.380 once, once, um, Artemis got into the sorority, his behavior started to really shock and offend.

01:01:45.960 So it wasn't just like somebody trying to blend in and get along. It was somebody who was clearly

01:01:51.940 getting off on the fact that he was immersed among all these beautiful girls who can give me some

01:01:57.380 examples of that. Megan, I think the fundamental point, uh, which is addressed in our lawsuit by

01:02:04.080 detailing some of those salacious allegations is the fact that being a woman is about more than a

01:02:09.640 pronoun and putting on lipstick. There are real biological impacts at play. And that's why this

01:02:15.940 case is so important. And I think I speak for all these young ladies. This isn't even just about a safe

01:02:20.460 space. Being in a sorority is about protecting this organization that they love. It's about a womanhood

01:02:26.220 experience. And that is fundamentally rooted in biology. You can't just ignore that. We can't

01:02:31.900 just go with the flow and engage in this individual's delusion. It's not our responsibility.

01:02:36.660 And it's certainly not why these young women signed up for this organization. And so that's

01:02:41.260 what they seek to protect. It's not just standing up for women everywhere and their rights to have

01:02:45.600 safe spaces like bathrooms. It's their entitlement to a womanhood experience, which you and I both know

01:02:51.620 is not just gained one day because you say it. So we've got 18 plus years of cumulative experience

01:02:57.860 of what it's like to purchase a bra and go through menstruation and grow up being a young woman.

01:03:03.180 And this individual will never have that experience. And we're not required legally to

01:03:07.640 indulge that the bylaws implicate certain rules that were not followed and they can't just redefine

01:03:13.820 womanhood because they say. Yes. So Cassie, you mentioned the bylaws, the ones from 1871

01:03:19.500 show that, quote, any lady may become a candidate for membership in KKG who shall be of good moral

01:03:28.120 character and above average talent, any lady. But explain to me, Cassie, because then later it looks

01:03:36.200 like the KKG bylaws and standing rules and revisions of 2022 seem to say that KKG is a single gender

01:03:46.160 organization, but it's comprised of women and individuals who identify as women. So which

01:03:53.040 bylaw governs? The first bylaw that you've met that you mentioned is the applicable law. There

01:04:00.200 was some guidance issued later on from the high levels of this organization to try to push down

01:04:05.180 an agenda. And this was not voted on. It is not legally binding. It is not the bylaws that these

01:04:10.180 young women signed up for. So the rules are the rules. And if headquarters wants to change that,

01:04:14.980 they need to do so by the appropriate process, not through this backdoor game playing where we just

01:04:21.800 push young women out who don't agree with you, who don't engage in participating in this delusion

01:04:26.560 anymore. And not not, you know, if they were going to change it, it would have to be on a go forward

01:04:31.940 basis, you know, starting in 2027, not change it for the girls, the young women who are already in the

01:04:37.760 sorority who pledged understanding the rules would be very different. That's that's a totally different

01:04:42.540 scenario. Shouldn't happen at all, but certainly shouldn't happen like this. Exactly. And they

01:04:46.580 can't go to another sorority. These young women are where they are. They've established their

01:04:50.980 sisterhood. And now what are they supposed to leave? Are they supposed to, as they've been told,

01:04:55.980 sit down and shut up and not be transphobes and bigots? One of the things you're mentioning,

01:05:01.760 Cassie, is what jumped out about to me about your story, ladies, to begin with, because his behavior

01:05:07.080 inside the sorority was absolutely irregular. I mean, this is not how any woman behaves, nevermind

01:05:13.620 the seem apparent sexual pleasuring of himself while looking at you. We'll get to that. But this

01:05:19.340 is the thing that really jumped out at me that I just couldn't I couldn't get past. This is from the

01:05:24.060 complaint, quote, Smith, his last name is Smith, repeatedly questioned the women about what vaginas

01:05:31.540 look like, breast cup size, whether women were considering breast reductions in birth control.

01:05:37.480 I mean, literally in 52 years on this earth, I've never had a woman ask me what my vagina looks like.

01:05:42.960 That is not a question that women ask other women. So what what was it like being around him? What was

01:05:50.540 he saying to you? And what how was it for you? There were definitely some uncomfortable moments,

01:05:56.660 that is for sure. And I don't believe that anyone should feel cornered or unsafe in their own home.

01:06:02.340 And like Jalen said, that just further proves the point of why these women's spaces are so

01:06:06.320 important. From childhood, we are taught that we need to hold our keys between our knuckles when

01:06:11.480 we're walking in a parking lot. The public world can be incredibly dangerous for women. And so having

01:06:17.020 that place to retreat to at the end of the day is so vital, especially when you're working on building

01:06:21.240 your community and professional skills. So Ellie, when you got back to the sorority house after such a

01:06:26.600 day and you sat down next to Artemis, was he like, so tell me about your vagina? It's so absurd.

01:06:32.840 OK, so let's I want to go through some of these allegations. Cassie, what would you say were the

01:06:37.640 ones that stood out to you in serving these girls who had come forward to you with the allegations

01:06:42.480 that he behaved inappropriately? You know, the allegations are shocking to the point where

01:06:48.780 the attorney for Artemis has now said, you know, these can't be true because they do seem like they

01:06:55.000 can't be true. Right. I mean, this seems unbelievable that a man who clearly has biological features of

01:07:01.540 a man, as we've seen, is allowed to live in this house and excuse me, not live in this house, but be

01:07:08.560 in this house, at least as of now. And, you know, it's very obvious that there's a misbelonging there.

01:07:15.160 And I think what this demonstrates is that sometimes when these woke agendas come down,

01:07:19.700 it's all out of principle. But even the best intentions can have horrible consequences and

01:07:24.240 they have horrible consequences for this man as well. I honestly empathize with him. I feel like

01:07:29.600 he's in a situation which is not beneficial to him. He's you know, everyone here is being

01:07:34.720 marginalized and exploited through this process. And for what? So that headquarters can fundraise

01:07:39.700 so that, you know, they can send nasty letters to alumni telling them to stop discussing these

01:07:44.680 controversial issues. There's nothing controversial about the bylaws. They've been in place for over

01:07:49.380 100 years. CAPA was formed so that women could join together in sisterhood and have mentorship and

01:07:55.860 encouragement and compete with men in the classroom. That's why this was designed. And now all of a

01:08:00.580 sudden, we're just supposed to, quote, sit down and shut up, go along for the ride. And if we don't like

01:08:06.180 it, we should leave. And that's not acceptable to us. I can think of nothing more misogynistic than a

01:08:11.240 biological man telling me how I'm entitled to feel about his erection. Right. Exactly. What do we

01:08:17.960 accept that this is a person with genuine gender dysphoria? I mean, we showed that videotape that was

01:08:24.120 from November 2021, September 22. He's in CAPA. So, I mean, it just seems to me this might not be an

01:08:31.380 actual dysphoric person. This might be a faker or somebody who's just using that open door as an

01:08:37.080 excuse to spend time with these young, beautiful women. Megan, it's impossible for us to know that.

01:08:42.440 I think that the individual in question is very troubled on one level or another. We wouldn't be

01:08:46.620 here today. But I can't help but wonder, is he a pawn in some larger scheme? You know, what's really

01:08:51.920 the strength putting all of this in motion because of the way that the vote came down and because of the

01:08:56.760 pressure that we've seen toward alumni, toward these girls at the hands of headquarters, it's

01:09:02.280 unacceptable. And I can't help but call into question where that drive comes from.

01:09:07.320 The allegations in the complaint are shocking. Here's one of them, alleging that he behaved

01:09:13.940 inappropriately around the sorority sisters on numerous occasions, including once when Artemis,

01:09:19.460 quote, had an erection visible through his leggings. Other times he had a pillow in his lap.

01:09:26.760 There are similar stories going on about him watching the girls getting an erection,

01:09:32.600 watching a girl change her top. She wasn't wearing a bra. He was staring at her. Later that day,

01:09:38.600 he appeared sexually aroused during the incident. Somebody told the woman that they had seen that

01:09:43.860 he appeared sexually aroused during the incident and stood near the door with his hands over his

01:09:47.760 genitals. He sat in the back of the sorority yoga class for an hour in December, watching the

01:09:52.840 assembled young women flexed their bodies. I mean, I cannot imagine what it was like for you

01:09:58.840 gals, Hannah, in there dealing with this obvious man, but also one who's clearly getting aroused

01:10:05.640 by just being around you. Can you give us some idea of what that felt like for you?

01:10:11.800 It's a weird, gut-wrenching feeling that every time I leave my room, there's a possibility that I'll walk

01:10:18.060 past him in the hall, whatever setting that may be in. And it's never a pleasant encounter. And that's

01:10:24.900 the scary part. It's a weird feeling just to know that I could run into him anytime full access to

01:10:32.100 the house. But this just goes to show, like, we need women's spaces for that reason. Like, our house

01:10:39.160 is our home, just like any house is home. Like, you go home at the end of the day to feel comfortable

01:10:43.840 and relax in your own skin. And you can't do that knowing that this individual has full access to

01:10:49.580 your house. It is also really uncomfortable, just because some of the girls in the house,

01:10:55.640 I know they've been sexually assaulted or sexually harassed. So some girls live in constant fear in

01:11:00.440 their home. And our home is supposed to be a safe space. And to paint you a picture just a little bit

01:11:03.900 further, men are never allowed on the second floor of our house except for move in and move out just to

01:11:08.500 help us lift heavy things upstairs. So it is seriously an only female space. It is so different

01:11:14.240 than living in the dorms, for instance, where men and women can co-mingle on the floors. That is not

01:11:19.440 the case in a sorority house. We share just a couple main bathrooms on the upstairs floor,

01:11:23.540 but it is just us who lives there. And it's supposed to be a safe place that we can go to rest

01:11:27.560 our heads at night. Mm-hmm. And even in a dorm room, it's been many years for me, but even in a dorm

01:11:34.440 room, I lived in a co-ed floor, they still had individual bathrooms. The women had the women's

01:11:39.820 space to shower and do our business, and the men had theirs. And what was the situation with the

01:11:45.660 bathrooms at the sorority house? All of the bathrooms are shared spaces. There are about

01:11:51.800 three, four, if you count the guest bathroom. And they are shared spaces. There are no private

01:11:57.340 changing areas for when you shower. There are no locks on the showers. And it's just, it's very open

01:12:03.960 and vulnerable. Oh my goodness. And this person's moving into the sorority house next year?

01:12:10.240 What's interesting about that, Megan, is that there has been an exemption granted for him,

01:12:16.700 for his safety, but not for these young women. What do you mean?

01:12:22.780 Headquarters, I think, in an effort to try to protect what little dignity they have left in this

01:12:28.160 whole deal, has decided that the individual does not need to live in the house, even though that's a

01:12:33.760 requirement. And that you have to seek an exemption from that requirement. For example, if you have

01:12:38.580 special needs that wouldn't, you know, enable that sort of living accommodation. But in this instance,

01:12:44.920 this individual has gotten preferential treatment every turn of the way. And we've seen that with

01:12:50.860 the living situation. But unfortunately, that individual still comes to the house, still engages

01:12:56.900 in dinners, still sits in the chair and watches the girls, all of the things that are

01:13:00.900 not appropriate in light of what's occurring here.

01:13:04.220 Is there anyone left at Kappa Gamma Gamma right now? Like, are the rest of the women okay with this?

01:13:10.460 Or how are they dealing?

01:13:12.620 We're definitely dwindling. We lost quite a few members through this process, especially new members

01:13:17.580 that hadn't been initiated yet, that were part of the pledge class that this individual was involved

01:13:23.400 in. And I also almost resigned. I was very determined to leave. I didn't want to be involved in this

01:13:30.160 whole situation. It was too much. But I reconnected with fellow sisters and alumni. And I realized how

01:13:37.040 important this organization is to me and to everybody else. And I refuse to allow subverting my rights as a

01:13:45.440 woman to cater towards the comfort of a man. I will not let him take these opportunities away from me.

01:13:52.160 Yes. Right on, sister. Fight. Fight. Right? It's one thing to fight and lose. But you haven't lost yet.

01:13:59.720 Fight. Nobody's fighting. That's one of the problems. You know, even the UPenn female swimmers

01:14:04.600 did not fight. Riley Gaines was not on UPenn. She lost or she came in third against, tied for third

01:14:10.360 against Leah Thomas. And she was outraged. And then she found her voice. But this is how change happens,

01:14:14.980 what you're doing right now. Fight. Let's see. Let's see how it goes. Maybe the Kappa leadership will lose

01:14:20.740 and you guys will win and a real point will be made. But go down swinging at a minimum, right?

01:14:26.900 I mean, I do. This is what drives me crazy. Maybe you ladies can educate me because I think too,

01:14:31.480 like women, young girls are educated and taught, even if it's not explicit. You should be nice.

01:14:37.760 You should not cause waves. You should be accommodating. You should be the nice girl.

01:14:41.800 And we go into these situations with those biases. And then you get confronted with something

01:14:47.120 really worth objecting to. And there's a struggle internally between all of that conditioning you've

01:14:53.240 grown up with and, you know, danger and moral wrongness, you know, staring you right in the face.

01:15:01.040 Have you been going through that over these past few months since you filed a lawsuit and since you've

01:15:04.780 been dealing with them? I mean, everyone needs to be treated with dignity and respect, but there's

01:15:10.480 a line. I think that's been crossed and it's being crossed in other places as well, like women's

01:15:16.300 sports where we cannot, you know, we can't compete with them. And when they invade our spaces,

01:15:23.660 bad stuff happens.

01:15:25.280 And there's a misunderstanding, I think too, that exploiting people somehow lends itself to

01:15:29.860 compassion. And that's what this is. Individuals like the one in question deserve their own spaces.

01:15:35.160 They deserve to be safe and protected and accepted and loved and all of the things.

01:15:39.420 But when you're living in a tight environment with a clearly biological male, it's just impossible

01:15:45.440 for that individual to have compassion. It's so obvious. It's so biologically fundamental to the

01:15:50.160 core. And we can't allow woke culture to be the arbiter of what sisterhood is. It's a shared

01:15:56.060 experience and it's growth and it's development. And this experience is not doing this individual

01:16:01.220 any justice whatsoever. So that's where I think the left gets it wrong.

01:16:05.320 You're more compassionate than I am, Cassie, because I don't accept that this person

01:16:08.800 is dysphoric. I think this is a glommer. I think this is a guy who's just getting off on

01:16:13.580 living with these beautiful women. That's how it sounds to me.

01:16:16.400 And I have no compassion for him.

01:16:17.400 I've had a lot of friends tell me if I knew it was that easy to get into a sorority house,

01:16:20.080 I would have put on a skirt a long time ago.

01:16:22.460 And maybe that's true. But I just can't help but see the pain that it causes everyone involved.

01:16:27.460 And people have to understand there's a better way. Unisex spaces should be developed in a better way.

01:16:31.800 If this were happening at Tridel, I would go volunteer to be like the house mother

01:16:36.240 tomorrow. I would go in there. I'd be like, what the hell's going on underneath that pillow?

01:16:41.020 Get out of here. Take your story walking. Right? I mean, it's just like, it's so infuriating. You

01:16:46.320 were subjected to this. It's so deeply wrong. It's bad enough we walk through a fraternity party and

01:16:50.120 see a guy doing that. Having it happen in the sorority house is a different story.

01:16:54.160 So can we talk? And then I want to get into the legal allegations because it's interesting you're

01:16:57.460 fighting back legally. But can we talk for a second about fear? Because there were a couple

01:17:02.580 of those UPenn swimmers who came forth anonymously. You know, they did not want their names. And they

01:17:07.200 said anonymously to like my pals over at the Daily Wire, I'm worried if I come out with my real face

01:17:12.980 and my real name saying these things, I'm not going to get a job. I'm going to get labeled a transphobe,

01:17:19.060 which I know you guys were called if you voted against Artemis. Do you fear that? Or is that a

01:17:24.840 dynamic for any of you? I think it was a fear for a lot of us initially. But as we continued

01:17:30.500 with this whole process, I think we just grew more and more in our confidence about how important this

01:17:36.160 actually is. And we were just, as women, we're expected to be compassionate and complacent,

01:17:43.700 if we're being honest. And it's this new movement of non-biological women entering our spaces,

01:17:50.840 and we're just supposed to be okay with it. But we're not. That's the truth. There are so many women

01:17:56.680 that are saying no, that are screaming no, and we're being silenced. But just because you can't

01:18:01.700 hear it doesn't mean it's not happening. We are saying no. We are done. We are done.

01:18:07.240 And another reason this is just so important is that we're not doing this just for us. Again,

01:18:11.780 we are doing it for younger girls behind us, the rest of the girls in the house who are too scared

01:18:16.700 to put their names forward. And I just like to say that there are so many more of us than who's

01:18:20.760 on camera today. There's a lot of us behind this because we all believe in this, and we're working

01:18:25.980 through this together. And we really do want to make a difference for those girls in the next

01:18:30.580 generation behind us. I feel like they messed with the wrong group of women. I was looking at your

01:18:38.280 majors. Maybe this is a function of being in Wyoming. I was just out in South Dakota. There's just

01:18:43.400 something of it. There's a grit in that area of the country that you might not find in

01:18:46.960 like Brooklyn, I'm just going to say. And I was looking at, you know, so Hannah,

01:18:52.620 you're you want to be a game warden. You're from Nebraska. I love that. You've got Ellie.

01:18:57.740 You're from Wyoming. You're majoring in agricultural communications. One Allie, who's here in the back

01:19:02.580 row, pursuing a career in farm and ranch management. Another Katie, want to be an environmental

01:19:08.000 consultant. Like they, I just feel like there's a grit here where you're taking on or hope to big

01:19:14.640 roles and male dominated industries where you just, you know, I, I feel like it's all, it all

01:19:19.780 happened at university of Wyoming for a reason. I just, something tells me it happened there for a

01:19:23.940 reason. Uh, and you were kind of chosen for this battle. Now let's talk about, um, Oh, before we get

01:19:29.460 to the legal allegations, what's the deal with the 1.7 GPA? Can anyone explain why this is relevant?

01:19:34.820 You know, Megan, this is one of the many examples that we have reason to believe that this individual

01:19:40.360 was given preferential treatment, that the rules that apply to everyone else do not apply to this

01:19:45.380 person. And, you know, discovery will unfold that process fully and the why behind that. But

01:19:50.860 at least for now, we know that this is not in any way, shape or form how this process goes from the

01:19:56.280 grades. What are you supposed to have? What's your GPA supposed to be?

01:19:58.940 2.7 is the minimum. Oh, just to get in and stay in Kappa. Oh, 2.7. That's like,

01:20:08.080 it's got like half. So do we know that that was the GPA or we're doing a discovery on this?

01:20:14.220 We'll do discovery to fully vet that, but we have very good reason to believe that that's the case.

01:20:18.200 And that's why it's in the allegations. Unbelievable. I mean, that's like a scene

01:20:22.220 straight out of animal house. Like it's not unbelievable if the exemptions are granted at a

01:20:25.900 high level of the organization. That's right. So now you've got somebody who's, you know,

01:20:30.880 appears to be somewhat, this is my view of a pervert who's also not that smart. Um, also has

01:20:37.120 very little regulation on how one approaches one's health and fitness and wellbeing or sitting there

01:20:41.980 amidst you, uh, at every turn during the yoga, during the showering and so on. And by any means

01:20:47.300 is not a quote lady. So Cassie, they come to you and how, like, what is the lawsuit about? Because I get

01:20:54.460 the outrage, I get a national protest, I get a walkout vote. Like what, how do we turn it into

01:20:58.620 a lawsuit? We worked very hard to just factually present this to the court. And granted, we had

01:21:05.020 to include some of the more gritty allegations because it shows what was really going on here.

01:21:09.700 But the claim is a breach of contract claim. It's saying that the high levels of this organization

01:21:14.940 did not play by the rules, that there was gamesmanship and illegality involved. And that

01:21:19.300 these women, as in any contract, whether it's a real estate contract, a business contract,

01:21:23.960 you go into it, you enter it knowingly, you have expectations and understandings and things

01:21:28.960 are presented to you and you make an informed decision. And that's exactly what happened here.

01:21:32.780 They were told that they were joining an all women's organization. And during the rush process,

01:21:38.340 you know, they got told it was a sisterhood and a slumber party all the time. You're going to feel

01:21:43.040 accepted and loved. And it's a great experience now and forever. These will be your best

01:21:47.340 girlfriends. And then this happened. And that flies in the face of any expectation they have.

01:21:52.700 And we're bringing it also as a derivative claim to try to save Kappa because Kappa is an amazing

01:21:57.860 organization. It's got alumni that are, you know, 100 to 18 at this point that are involved and they

01:22:04.180 all love it. And they all speak so highly about how it changed the course of their lives, how they

01:22:09.140 were able to develop in this sisterhood in a safe space. And all of that has been abolished

01:22:14.120 without their consent, without the proper vote. And it's illegal. And so we are asserting their

01:22:18.840 rights under the contract that they entered into. I've had tons of emails and comments from our

01:22:23.580 listeners and viewers saying they're Kappa alum and they're sending back their key. And so I'll say,

01:22:27.680 I'm sending back my key. And they were all very upset about the GPA issue, saying that's an obvious

01:22:32.200 violation that no girl would be allowed to, you know, commit and stay in the sorority. And certainly he

01:22:39.060 shouldn't have been allowed to. The lawsuit also alleges that, actually, I don't know if this is

01:22:46.260 from the lawsuit, but I know that there's something called the NPC policy. And I want to ask you about

01:22:53.820 this, Cassie, because they say the NPC recruitment eligibility policy, and this appears to be a national

01:23:00.760 fraternity organization, says for the purpose of participation in panhelemic recruitment, woman is

01:23:07.600 defined as an individual who consistently lives and self-identifies as a woman. So what's the

01:23:14.360 NPC recruitment eligibility? And is Kappa bound by that? Are they required to follow some, you know,

01:23:20.060 greater sorority rule that governs all the sororities? We're not, but you can see the shift

01:23:26.580 coming from the top down. And National Panheleic likes to set these guidelines that push a deep,

01:23:32.860 dark agenda. And they try to infiltrate into the bodies, into each of the sororities, into the

01:23:37.540 fraternal organizations at a high level. And it's insidious. It works its way down until these

01:23:41.920 people feel so pressured that they have no choice but to go along or to sit down and shut up or to

01:23:46.660 be scared. And it's not binding. It's not legal. It's not the bylaws that these young women signed

01:23:52.040 up for. But you're seeing that societal pressure at a high level come through, through that entity

01:23:58.220 into the organizations. And, you know, we've had so many women across the country and other sororities

01:24:03.560 reach out to us to speak words of encouragement to these young women to say, we are so glad you're

01:24:08.520 standing up because the same thing is happening in our sororities as well. And so you're seeing

01:24:12.200 this. Is that right? It's not exclusive to Kappa. Is that right? So you're seeing it at other

01:24:16.640 sororities, at other universities? It's starting to. It really is starting to. And the nice thing

01:24:22.820 about this lawsuit is it's really the first one in the country, I believe, that will take up the issue

01:24:27.000 of what is a woman because our bylaws under Kappa were so stringent. They've said womanhood, ladylike.

01:24:33.820 You know, we have all of these terms and the whole crux of why the organization began, like I said,

01:24:37.640 was to compete with men in the classroom to give women an advantage that they had never otherwise had

01:24:42.440 and to establish the sisterhood that didn't exist. So we perfectly have the test case for it,

01:24:47.540 I believe. And we'll see what happens. The you know, it's pretty amazing if you look at that

01:24:52.340 national, like the panhelemic group, which governs all the sororities. They say, okay,

01:24:58.800 so for purposes of participation, woman is defined as one who consistently lives and self-identifies

01:25:06.840 as a woman. I don't, I think you've got a very strong case that Artemis was not consistently

01:25:11.760 living as a woman. This person does not. I mean, look, I don't know. I think, I feel like you would

01:25:17.680 still be bringing this lawsuit if the person who got recruited and admitted into Kappa were Dylan

01:25:22.260 Mulvaney, somebody who makes an effort to at least appear female. But this person made

01:25:28.400 no effort. I mean, absolutely none. It's like having the rock come apply. And then the next

01:25:34.500 thing you know, there he is watching you do your yoga, only far less attractive. So can I ask you

01:25:41.540 that? Like Dylan Mulvaney, how would you have felt about somebody who appears feminine is making an

01:25:48.040 effort to appear feminine? There are issues with just how feminine and stereotypical, but

01:25:53.200 would that have changed this for you? Not at all. In fact, I think it's so counterintuitive to the

01:25:59.360 right that we've fought a century for as women to say, you can be who you are. You can wear pink,

01:26:04.540 not cut your hair, work in ag, be a nurse. It doesn't matter. You're a woman. And that's what

01:26:10.080 binds us. And marginalizing that to the extent that now, if you put on a dress and you put on some

01:26:15.900 lipstick, then all of a sudden you're a woman, well, you can put lipstick on a pig. That doesn't

01:26:19.640 make it a lady, Megan. I mean, it's just so offensive to me that now it's all about how we

01:26:24.620 look. And that's what makes a woman. No, it's based on our experiences as women. It's based on

01:26:29.560 our biology. And that's what these young women are trying to live together to figure out. You know,

01:26:34.520 they're at the beginning of their lives, essentially, where you're supposed to go to

01:26:37.460 college and relax and form relationships and figure out who you are. This is not a safe space for some

01:26:43.260 man who wants to pretend to be a woman to figure out how to do that. This is not a breeding ground

01:26:47.700 for that. Yes. It's like Kelly J. Keene says, we are not under the obligation to participate in

01:26:53.180 somebody else's fetish just to make them feel comfortable at our expense. We have no obligation

01:26:59.060 to do that. I will say this on the Dylan Mulvaney front. Dylan Mulvaney just interviewed Judy Bloom

01:27:06.860 in connection with the movie version of Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret. Now, I don't know if any of you is

01:27:12.900 familiar with that book. That was more of my generation, I think. Maybe it was for every

01:27:17.140 generation. But that book is about getting your first period. And now they literally have a

01:27:21.660 biological man interviewing Judy Bloom about this book, about what it's like to get your first period.

01:27:28.540 The absurdity of it, like Dylan Mulvaney would know anything about that, right? Every woman on this

01:27:35.680 screen knows all about that. The trauma that comes with it, the stress that comes with it.

01:27:40.420 Like sometimes the, you know, oh, it's a dawn of a new day and I'm a woman that comes with it.

01:27:45.440 But this is how far they'll go. They'll have a biological man pretending to be a woman

01:27:51.060 interview the preeminent author of the book about getting your period, about what that's like.

01:27:57.420 We've jumped the shark, Cassie. So what is specifically the relief you want? What do you

01:28:03.100 want the court to order? We want them to follow the own rules that they set, their own rules that

01:28:09.740 have existed for over a hundred years. And we want them to say that that means you have to be a

01:28:14.940 biological woman. You can't be a man pretending to be a woman. And if they don't like those rules,

01:28:20.200 then headquarters and all the high level needs to go change that appropriately so that it's legal,

01:28:25.700 so that people who join this organization, women who join this organization, know what they're

01:28:30.060 signing up for. They can't just change the rules overnight when the decisions have already been

01:28:34.540 made. The promises have already been granted. And now these young women are expected to just go with

01:28:39.240 it. And on the, on the Dylan Mulvaney front, I think it's a testament to the fact that they don't

01:28:43.860 want us to know who we are. We don't get to, you know, be crafted by God anymore. I think it's

01:28:49.600 something so much more deep than what we see on the surface. And I know there's a lot of perspective

01:28:54.480 on that, but I think that if we're to honor what it means to be a woman, that's divine. That's

01:28:59.340 feminine. That's, that's something that we're born with that you can't take away from us.

01:29:03.480 That's why a woman who can never conceive a child is no less of a woman because that's who you are.

01:29:07.700 That's who God has made you to be. And so we believe very strongly in the fact that

01:29:11.640 Kappa needs to play by the rules that they set. And if they don't like those rules,

01:29:15.480 they need to change those rules legally.

01:29:17.000 So this is what you're up against. Uh, in part, my, my team actually pulled a soundbite

01:29:21.560 of Dylan interviewing Judy bloom, Judy bloom, who originally she made some comment that was

01:29:27.400 more aligned with what you and I are saying right now. Then she got all this blowback and now she's

01:29:32.940 on a full apology tour. That's I believe why she sat with Dylan Mulvaney, but just listen to this

01:29:38.000 exchange. Okay. This is just listen to this. This is what you're up against that you would say to

01:29:43.860 someone new in their womanhood, exploring that, any advice that you would give.

01:29:49.860 Enjoy it. Enjoy it. Thank you. Love, love it. Thank you. If you can. Thank you. And it's hard,

01:29:57.920 no matter what sex you are, no matter your gender life, life happens and life can be tough.

01:30:07.340 I'm sorry, Cassie. I see that night. I feel anger.

01:30:09.880 I feel extreme, just misunderstanding and manipulation. People don't know how to speak

01:30:17.300 the truth anymore because they're too terrified. And I think that that's evidenced by these young

01:30:20.940 women. I mean, again, they're in a college experience. They're supposed to be having the

01:30:24.460 time of their lives. And instead they have to worry if somebody is going to come bomb their

01:30:27.980 sorority house because now it's on the front page. You know, it's, it's just a wild world that

01:30:32.340 we live in where you can't even stand up for your own safety anymore. Where for a hundred years,

01:30:36.960 we've been fighting for the right to vote, which by the way, Wyoming was the first state in the

01:30:40.940 union where we were allowed to vote. And now all of a sudden you wiggle your nose and so it shall

01:30:45.140 be. So you're a woman. No, that's not what that means. That's never been. Enjoy. Enjoy. As for the

01:30:50.440 women who now have to share their bathrooms with you and their locker rooms with you and their sorority

01:30:53.640 with you, they can pound sand. Too bad on them. Um, I will say Carrie Cottrell Poole, the executive

01:30:59.700 director of the sorority says the lawsuit contains numerous false allegations, but that the sorority could

01:31:05.460 not comment in detail. Um, she said this in an emailed statement and says the sorority does not

01:31:12.500 discriminate against gender identity, which really kind of begs the question, does it not? The question

01:31:18.880 is, does it discriminate against actual women who were promised one thing and given another last

01:31:24.900 question for the, for the women, the young women on the, on the set, if the lawsuit is not successful,

01:31:30.660 will you stay in Kappa? Raise your hand if the answer is no.

01:31:39.400 So you'll all stay. You, you all will stay in Kappa.

01:31:44.100 We're just a few, like the organization at large is a really large organization and us dropping or

01:31:50.540 quitting or leaving is not going to do anything to help our cause. It's not going to do anything

01:31:54.780 to stand up for women's spaces. It's not going to do any good. I mean, it's also not going to do

01:31:59.780 harm, but we're here to say and make a statement. You can't just be rolled over and said, this is our

01:32:05.860 definition of a woman and it's now yours too. We, that's not our definition of a woman. Um,

01:32:12.660 and we're not going to sit here and be told that it is. And we're not just going to let them win.

01:32:16.340 We're here making a fight. We're giving our voices and we're speaking up for other girls and we're

01:32:21.540 making a statement either way. And we're going to take, we're going to make sure that our opinions are

01:32:26.660 valued at the end of the day, because Kappa ultimately betrayed us in this whole situation.

01:32:31.140 And that is just not right. This organization has so much great potential for the alumni outreach

01:32:36.520 and just everything it provides us as leaders. And that's why we're here fighting because we're

01:32:39.620 not just going to drop. I think it's important to remember that, yes, you're going to get a slew of

01:32:48.480 labels. And honestly, I have to Google half of them because I don't know what they are. And so,

01:32:54.900 um, we're not afraid of these labels. I want to make that very clear. We are not afraid of what

01:33:01.000 labels someone wants to put on us because of this lawsuit. We know who we are and we know that our

01:33:06.360 voice matters. Right on sister. Good, good for you. Good for all of you. Thank you, Cassie, for taking

01:33:13.720 the case. I can't wait to see you guys out there kicking ass with the game warden and the ag field.

01:33:20.400 And all of this is great training ground for it all. Please keep your voices out there. Go on tour,

01:33:25.080 go to the other colleges, take what they throw at you, do it with a badge of honor. It doesn't

01:33:28.920 matter. Tomato juice. Well, you can withstand that. This is much harder. Uh, I think you've learned a

01:33:33.960 really important life lesson. Your parents raised your right. Thanks for coming on ladies. All the best

01:33:38.580 to you. Thank you so much. Hmm. If you want to support these women in their efforts,

01:33:44.940 they have a fundraising page, give, send, go.com slash go women, give, send, go.com slash go

01:33:55.020 women. W O M E N. Oh, we have a good lineup this week. We have got for the first time on the show,

01:34:02.280 Roseanne Barr coming up on Wednesday and Dan Bongino will be here on Friday. We also have the fifth column,

01:34:08.460 love them and Carrie and Brit come back on the gender craziness. They're awesome. Looking forward to

01:34:14.040 that. And thank you for being with us. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS,

01:34:21.260 no agenda and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 15, 2023

Left's Trans Ideology Religion, and Men in Women's Spaces, with Sen. Josh Hawley and KKG Sisters Suing Over Trans Pledge ｜ Ep. 550

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