Nancy Guthrie was last seen in the early morning hours of June 14th at the home she shared with her husband and three children. Her body was found in the driveway of her Tucson, Arizona home the next day, and no arrests have been made in connection with her disappearance. The FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Department have not ruled out the possibility that she was a victim of foul play.
00:01:39.820And we wouldn't have been doing a show at all today had it not been for this case, which
00:01:44.300people have a lot of interest in for all sorts of reasons.
00:01:47.980And we will stay on until, you know, it's obvious when it's time to move on.
00:01:52.700I mean, this is either going to become a cold case and just a missing persons case.
00:01:55.800We're going to have to turn the page or they're going to find a resolution.
00:01:58.660But we're not at either of those points yet.
00:02:01.520And next week, we'll have plenty of other news as well.
00:02:04.700So in any event, I want to bring in our all-star panel.
00:02:08.580We've got James Fitzgerald and we've got Maureen O'Connell.
00:02:11.680James is former supervisory special agent at the FBI and the host of the Cold Red podcast.
00:02:17.260And Maureen, former FBI special agent and co-host of the Best Case, Worst Case podcast.
00:02:23.020And they've been our guides throughout this whole thing.
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00:03:16.620Okay, guys, a couple of big developments to start with.
00:03:20.320There is dueling information on whether since our show yesterday, the FBI has, quote, moved on from, and by FBI, I mean FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Department, from Pac-Man, who we analyzed at length yesterday.
00:03:37.180The man who had two backpacks in a back alley a few miles away from Nancy Guthrie's case, almost at the same time of the Nancy Guthrie home invasion, if the camera was right in the alley, put it around 1.53 a.m., someplace around there.
00:03:54.180And, of course, we're told that the doorbell was disconnected at Nancy's house at 1.47 and that someone was spotted on camera at 2.12 a.m.
00:04:00.920So the NBC News nightly program, I think it was last night, Tom Winter, who's been covering the case for them, reports that law enforcement has, quote, moved on.
00:04:12.580I think he said that that man is not a person of interest or a suspect, and they've moved on.
00:04:18.200And TMZ saying that's not true, saying that their sources say, no, your information is wrong, that no one has been cleared.
00:04:27.920That was the word. They've been cleared. And Harvey says, no, my FBI source tells me no one has been cleared in relation to that video.
00:04:35.900So let's just start there. What's going on there?
00:04:39.680I mean, I tried to get to the bottom of this, and basically I was directed to the Pima County Sheriff's Department.
00:04:47.820I mean, that they're the ones supposed to be running herd on this.
00:04:51.240They're the only ones who can clear or not clear. And while the FBI may be telling Harvey he's not cleared, no one's cleared, Tom Winter seems to have two just law enforcement sources saying he is.
00:05:04.360So, Jim, what do you think is happening here?
00:05:06.920No one is no one is cleared in this investigation, Megan, at this point in time.
00:05:11.220You can talk of the inner circle of the family, to guys like this who pop up, you know, days later, weeks later, a week and a half later on some kind of a video.
00:05:19.680So, you know, unless someone's actually in prison, locked up, no ends of rebuts, CCTV on him, they know where he is.
00:05:26.520No one is going to be cleared. And even if this guy is not the one or someone is in prison and they know he didn't do the abduction of Nancy Guthrie, you know, does he know someone who did?
00:05:37.600Was he involved in some sort of co-conspiral type thing? So I said yesterday, this guy has to be ruled out before.
00:05:44.340Well, they can do other things at the same time, but he has to be ruled out before they say he's cleared.
00:05:49.380We're hearing conflicting stories. One people said one set of people said yes.
00:05:53.020Other people said no. My idea is you keep them, you know, you move them down the priority list.
00:05:57.880You put them in section C, D or E of suspects, but you still keep an eye on them to keep everything.
00:06:03.520Get DNA, get fingerprints if that's possible, and then compare it from there.
00:06:07.120But I would say if I was the investigator, and Maureen can disagree with this if she wants, but this guy is still in the suspect pool,
00:06:14.220which is too many factors that lined up when they shouldn't have lined up, same time, same location, backpacks, all that stuff.
00:06:21.220So he has to be kept in that suspect pool. I'm not sure he's been identified or not. That would be a big factor.
00:06:25.680No one would have told Tom. I mean, Tom Winter is a good reporter. No one would have said he was cleared if they hadn't identified him.
00:06:33.120I just can't believe that. But here is Harvey, who clearly does have some FBI sources.
00:06:38.840Here he cites FBI. Normally he just cites law enforcement.
00:06:41.780But his only role in this whole case has been the so-called ransom notes, which we know the FBI is handling.
00:06:47.660Quite clearly he's got a source or sources within the FBI.
00:06:51.480And this is what he said on Hannity last night, Maureen, here at his top three.
00:06:54.680Why is NBC dismissing this now that apparently they have determined that the man has been cleared in this case?
00:07:01.440Because it looks like a strange coincidence to me.
00:07:04.260Yeah, I mean, look, I'm not going to embrace or dispute what NBC said.
00:07:10.380I can only tell you about an hour ago, I called one of my sources at the FBI who was involved in this case,
00:07:19.020who said that nobody has been cleared in connection with the video.
00:07:24.180That doesn't mean they're implicated either.
00:07:26.280But they said they're looking at everything, including this.
00:07:29.580So I'm getting different information from the FBI.
00:07:32.400Okay, so what do you make of it, Maureen?
00:07:36.980I think that in the Bureau, we're doing different things.
00:07:41.740And, you know, Fitz has talked at length about the number of different investigations in all these different silos
00:07:48.260that are happening simultaneously, including the sheriff's department.
00:07:52.080Our team is just not going to give up, especially like the CAST team, the cellular analysis team and others.
00:08:00.160We are just not going to give up until we check every single solitary box that we check.
00:08:05.860And for two different agencies to have two different ways of going about things is totally natural.
00:08:29.080Because we have whatever the situation is at hand.
00:08:32.040And here the situation, obviously, is an 84-year-old woman.
00:08:35.320So we have different ways of going about it.
00:08:37.220We're not going to tell them how to handle their business.
00:08:39.400They're not going to be telling us how to handle ours.
00:08:41.960And then at the end of the day, we just share every – or in a, you know, really good situation, we're going to share all the information.
00:08:50.140And we're going to do it in the command post.
00:08:51.980And we're going to say this is what we found.
00:08:54.020With respect to this guy, though, I think we're – it's fair to say he's not a great lead.
00:09:00.820No one's considering him their hottest lead right now.
00:09:03.900Otherwise, the messaging overall would be different.
00:09:06.660And so that's disturbing because now we have at least two men who, one we know, committed a crime.
00:09:14.500One we think looks pretty sketchy with the double backpack in the alley in the middle of the night trying to get through some gate.
00:09:21.680Doesn't exactly look like, you know, he's working on his dissertation.
00:09:26.200So I'm not sure what's happening there in Tucson.
00:10:22.740Before he manages to cover it up or do whatever he did to it, boy, oh boy, you have a pretty good headshot of him.
00:10:27.800So, Jim, there is a striking similarity between this guy and his face, at least, and what we think is behind that masked man on Nancy's porch.
00:10:39.340And once again, as I've said about the last guy we showed and the same guy we talked about yesterday, by the way, Maureen and I came up with the name Tupac for him.
00:10:59.540I would want to know how far away from Nancy's house, the exact night, the same, and the time of day, and perhaps if any other ring cameras pick this guy up along the way.
00:11:10.160He's certainly acting suspicious like he doesn't belong there.
00:11:20.860But I'm sure the ex-girlfriend wouldn't be putting this thing out unless she wanted to, you know, upset her ex-boyfriend.
00:11:25.820So he has to be looked into, facial recognition.
00:11:29.040Local sheriff deputies are going to know this guy, most likely.
00:11:32.440Someone will recognize him and say, hey, who is he?
00:11:34.860If he's just a normal, you know, street guy doing his thing, that's one thing.
00:11:40.020But obviously, if he's there for some other reason, that has to be determined.
00:11:44.140And if he never shows up and turns himself in, that's a clue, too.
00:11:47.920So we have to get these guys identified as the bottom line and maybe just move on from there.
00:11:52.520But without knowing who they are, their names, or where exactly they were, you know, at 147 or so that Sunday morning, they've got to keep him in the suspect form.
00:12:05.100The original poster of the video goes by Keane Devine online.
00:12:09.680And this was originally posted at – it was dated January 23rd, you know, last month, from the neighbor's, like, ring camera app not far from Nancy.
00:12:19.080Then our friend Nerdy Addict on X, he reposted it, which is where I saw it this morning.
00:12:26.640The man showed up on someone's porch, he said, around 3.30 a.m., and then returned again at 5 a.m., prompting a concerned ring user to post about it on the neighbor app.
00:12:37.360This home is roughly six miles south of Nancy Guthrie's house.
00:15:21.780Because the perpetrator at Nancy's house has thick lips.
00:15:25.660That were perfectly calm the whole time.
00:15:29.460I mean, there are people that can't pick up a plate or turn a doorknob without making some sort of, you know, tightening up their face in some way, shape, or form.
00:15:39.160But that person on Nancy's porch just was calm as a cucumber the whole time.
00:15:44.220I do see a similarity, as you pointed out, about how calm this person is, this new video, the way he just saunters around and he's hunched over.
00:15:53.760He seems to be a bit taller and I would agree a bit thinner, but we don't know that right now.
00:15:59.740Maybe we can get that team out on the front porch to measure all that.
00:16:04.020But I don't see this person standing up straight.
00:16:07.060Does it say or did it mention at all if this person in this newest video was seen at other houses in the area or just that one particular?
00:16:18.480And, I mean, one notable distinction is he did not wear a ski mask.
00:16:22.520So, if that was a crime, unlike Tupac or Pac-Man, who was just sort of, who looked like he had just committed a crime, this is just my own supposition, or might be about to, and was in an area where the crime didn't appear to be happening.
00:16:37.280It seemed to be more like where he was stashing something.
00:16:39.220Could be a totally reasonable explanation for his behavior, should note that for the record.
00:16:42.160This guy was in the midst of something that looked sketchy, like on the porch.
00:16:48.020And he was not wearing the face mask, unlike Nancy's abductor, who did have the face mask.
00:16:54.420But this is where I want to bring in the latest sketch from this world-famous sketch artist, you guys.
00:17:01.220Because I'm holding your head and I'll put it back on the board, too, when we get to it.
00:17:29.540And she can translate your memory into a picture.
00:17:34.480She actually holds the Guinness World Record for most successful forensic artist.
00:17:38.360On her website, she credits her near-death experience as the victim of a serial rapist slash killer as the reason she's so passionate about catching criminals.
00:17:46.820She's got a very interesting personal story.
00:17:49.680And her website states that her sketches have helped identify more than 751 criminals.
00:17:57.720Now, she talked with the Guinness Book of World Records when she was honored about how she helps crime victims remember faces because she said so many of them will come in and say, I didn't see the face.
00:19:23.680The black mustache sort of right down into a goatee that doesn't have hair all out throughout the chin.
00:19:31.640Just a line of it going down the sides of his little mouth and down into like a devil beard with the soul patch connected with a little devil beard, but not a pointed beard.
00:19:48.880And he's got the eyes that you see in the actual photo from Nancy's ring cam, nest cam, in that the sides of the eyes, the outside end of the eyes, go maybe ever so slightly upward.
00:20:05.220You know, they tilt almost a little bit upward at the outside.
00:20:12.720This guy does not need the plastic surgery that gets rid of the upper eyelid.
00:20:17.860And he, we were told yesterday by law enforcement, FBI, that's what they were doing on Nancy's porch with that tent, as Jim and Maureen said.
00:20:27.280They were figuring out how tall the perp was.
00:21:11.540So I had an officer that was shot in the head and shot in the back and run over and drug under a car.
00:21:17.460Officer Paul Deeson was patrolling one night, and he didn't realize the guy that he stopped to just give a regular ticket was an escape convict.
00:22:07.680And I said, what kind of expression did he have?
00:22:12.480And I'll never forget, he said, he looked like a shark, like he didn't care about anything at all.
00:22:18.260And inside my mind I'm going, yee-haw, because that means he remembered the face.
00:22:23.520Anyway, Officer Deeson swears he doesn't remember doing the sketch with me because I talked to him years later and I've got it hanging on my wall.
00:22:33.600Three days later, Don Dutton was caught trying to shoplift a chainsaw from a Sears.
00:22:39.720When he was arrested for the shoplifting incident, two of the guys at the jail thought he looked like my sketch.
00:22:46.180So they held an in-hospital room video lineup for Paul Deeson and he picked him out.
00:22:53.540And then they went to the parking lot of the shoplifting scene and they found a car with pieces of Paul's skin and uniform hanging from the undercarriage.
00:23:22.840It's as if she was working off of the photograph of this man.
00:23:27.480But when she drew that sketch on the left, she had never seen his face.
00:23:31.440She had a cop who didn't think he had seen his face.
00:23:34.280A cop who'd suffered massive trauma, so you'd have to really question whether he remembered anything you could be relied on for a description.
00:25:43.320And I put some of these pointers out a few days ago with you, Megan.
00:25:47.640It's this guy may have been changed, may have changed his identity since certainly since the abduction itself, but certainly since the video went out, even with the with the skull mask on.
00:25:59.880I would tell the public, look at the basic features in this composite sketch, but don't get thrown off, you know, without the goatee mustache, whatever.
00:26:08.160But just think that this guy have it before.
00:26:10.080If he wore this most of his life, whatever, or certainly the last few years, all of a sudden it came off in the last week or so.
00:26:19.020I mean, Maureen, it's this woman's got a lifetime of figuring out what does someone look like without being shown what they look like by just being given a few clues, a few remembrances.
00:26:32.220And here, I mean, I would argue that the face masked subject is probably even easier to work off of than someone's memory because you can see things like face shape and some facial hair and the eyes are the eyes are everything.
00:27:31.940We are, you know, it's it's now getting extremely unlikely that Nancy is still alive because the family told us she can't survive without her critical meds.
00:27:42.200And, you know, it's possible they just said that in order to engender sympathy with the kidnapper.
00:27:46.660Like this is about to turn into a murder in case you didn't know that or didn't plan that.
00:27:52.720But here we are almost two weeks later and we still don't have her.
00:27:55.580And they said they'd been checking the hospitals to see if anybody had like popped in to try to get meds.
00:28:01.080And at least the initial surge suggested no.
00:30:50.620And he had that receding hairline that you don't, you know, this, the sketch just looks like some guy with perfect hair versus what he's caught.
00:30:58.000And the sketch shows a nose that looks like, I don't know, it's like more wide at the bottom with wider nostrils and a thinner bridge.
00:31:05.560And Berkowitz's nose was, it looks more Italian to me.
00:31:09.300Like, it doesn't look the same down at the bottom.
00:31:19.960But let me add here, all this stuff is good and important, but this opens up another door for us that I was hesitant to get into for the last week or so.
00:31:43.600And was this a mission-oriented project, which I thought it was all along, to kidnap Mrs. Guthrie?
00:31:51.740And we'll rule out Tupac from last night, but this guy does look good.
00:31:56.260Is this now a random sort of act of violence, an abduction there?
00:32:00.940And then I hope that even strengthens more now that the kidnapping part and the raising the money for ransom is even more specious and not connected at all to the actual abduction.
00:32:11.900So, why is this guy a week beforehand going on someone else's?
00:32:16.500That's why I asked yesterday, was the address very similar or one block away the police go to wrong houses sometimes when they're doing search warrants?
00:32:26.800So, this just opens up this other door.
00:32:30.580I hate to use the word meaningless, but like almost motiveless.
00:32:33.560And everything we put into this, all my experience, Marines, could this just be some rando walking down the street, why he puts on the mask, you know, for Nancy's abduction and not a week before, because maybe he did this surveillance before, looked in the window.
00:32:48.460Hey, there's this old lady by herself.
00:32:51.000So, if this is directed to kidnap her, why go to some other place a week before?
00:32:58.180That's what I'm trying to reconcile in my head, unless the guy is not connected at all.
00:33:03.400But we have to figure out who this guy was from this latest video and figure out his name and address and determine it.
00:33:09.160If it's not connected, I think it's safe to say that we should not move to Tucson.
00:33:15.740Like, how many men do they have roaming in the middle of the night, trying to break in, creepily preying on people's porches, possibly abducting women from their beds?
00:33:27.420Like, I didn't know that Tucson was such a hotbed of criminality, but it's kind of disturbing, Maureen.
00:33:35.640Well, he's got something in his hands.
00:33:37.200Fitz, what would you say to the possibility that maybe he was going around as part of his pre-incident work and trying to get clothing from people that had someone else's DNA all the way, you know, just...
00:33:55.200I mean, I can't rule that out, but I don't think this guy is as bright as some people are giving him credit for.
00:34:03.940I mean, again, it's a successful abduction.
00:34:05.420We have to give this guy credit for that so far, but is it all by happenstance, by fluke, and some mistakes made early on by the investigators?
00:34:34.660It's almost like he wants to be seen for the listening audience.
00:34:37.280He's got reflections, like the stripes, all over his shirt.
00:34:40.140And the couple that has been spied on is now filming him.
00:34:45.280I don't know if it's with their Nest camera or their ring camera, or they actually just did it.
00:34:48.380But he's going up on his tiptoes, and he's holding his phone in front of a high-up window.
00:34:54.900The couple spoke to the local media saying that's a bathroom window, and that he has been, or somebody had been spying through that window for some time.
00:35:05.380How old that female victim was in that...
00:35:09.240She's not. She's young. She's not old, which is the distinction here.
00:35:13.000I mean, I think, because it's like, if you're peeping Tom, and you want to look into the windows of young women in their bathrooms, and this woman is young.
00:41:24.840The email says he's contacting TMZ because he doesn't trust law enforcement, but he trusts Harvey Levin, who spends most of his time talking about celebrity news inside the 30-mile zone or Los Angeles.
00:41:39.800Okay, he's essentially using TMZ as an intermediary, telling authorities, you don't trust me, I don't trust you.
00:41:47.740He suggests the reward is now, he says, oh, he suggests the FBI reward, having been doubled to $100,000, because that happened yesterday after our show, was a move designed, quote, to discredit me.
00:42:01.020Now he wants the $100,000 from the FBI, and here's how.
00:42:05.640He's asking for a fraction of Bitcoin worth $50,000, and in return he will give up the information, and then he expects another $50,000 in Bitcoin.
00:42:15.720He promises not to withdraw the first $50,000 until the kidnapper is arrested.
00:42:49.240They don't need to go through me, but I have to say, like, Harvey Levin is milking this for everything it's worth.
00:42:55.480I just feel like he's too salacious, he's too eager to put himself out there and see himself on TV every night with Aaron Burnett and then with Sean and then with others.
00:43:06.120It's like he's, forgive me, because I have nothing against Harvey, but he's, to me, undermining the credibility that he had when he reported the initial ransom notes or whatever we're referring to the original communications.
00:43:17.500We could almost say he's an opportunist taking advantage of the opportunist who's taking advantage of the abduction of Nancy Guthrie.
00:43:24.560I can't tell you how many times I've been in prison, jail cells with long-timers, short-timers, Marina, you can probably relate to this, and you're working with some other crimes, the guy's part of a gang, whatever, and you say, yeah, we need information on this.
00:43:37.940When the New York Times letters, he put a nine-digit number, so it happened it was a social security number that came back to a guy in prison who was in the Manhunt Unabomber miniseries in my book.
00:43:46.280But the point, and we went in and talked to the guy, and he said, oh, yeah, the Unabomber, yeah, I'll tell you what, you get me out of prison, I'll find this Unabomber guy for you.
00:43:54.780Now, that's one big example of a big case, but I've done that other times with guys.
00:43:58.700Yeah, yeah, those burglars, yeah, get me out of here for my charges, I'll find who's doing it.
00:44:02.900No, the deal is, you tell us first, then we'll go to the prosecutor, the judge, and we'll get you a, you know, a lower sentence and maybe get you out if it's good information.
00:44:13.880Because this guy would have the $100,000. If he had the name of the kidnapper, all he'd have to do is give it up and he'd get the $100,000. He doesn't have to do any of this rigmarole.
00:44:21.200And he can be anonymous, and we told him yesterday, the guy, whoever was at the porch, we said yesterday on your show, don't fear that guy on the porch.
00:44:27.860He's not going to hurt you, I assure you, nor will the main guy, whoever that is supposed to be.
00:44:32.560So, I would not take this person serious. The family, the FBI, if nothing else, they'd have to put out there, you know, publicly, and maybe we're doing it right now.
00:44:43.660Give us a little something. Give us a little something to prove that you're valid, that you have decent information, and maybe we'll then take you serious.
00:44:52.420And if he knows this much about the case, he can give something. Now, we're not going to know if it's true or not, but if he's this close to the information.
00:45:00.840And now TMZ, now think about this too, and I'll let Maureen take over. So, TMZ is putting this information out.
00:45:06.940If there's a real kidnapper or team of kidnappers holding Nancy in custody or wherever she may be at this point, they're going to be looking around at each other and saying, hey, who's talking?
00:45:16.420Who's talking to TMZ? And they're going to start, you know, accusing each other of things. So, unless that's some wild strategy that someone's employing for that purpose alone.
00:45:24.940But I'm not talking. No, I'm not talking. So, nothing about this makes sense.
00:45:29.120What would you be doing with this information, Maureen, if you were investigating this case?
00:45:33.020Well, like Fitz, I have had guys in prison on this big case we worked where they would say, if you let me out, I could solve this other one.
00:45:42.360That seems to be something that you see a lot. And I just said, hey, you know, I like your enthusiasm, but I think it's fairly obvious I can't, like, let you walk out of prison for some vague promise.
00:45:55.620You know, I do think this whole thing is a distraction. I think it's taken away resources from the real work that needs to be done.
00:46:03.580And if this clown, we're starting to normalize this theory or this thought that you can just come up with your own rules and try to rewrite the way everything's been done since the beginning of time.
00:46:18.080You cannot come in and say, give me money for absolutely nothing and, you know, and I don't have to give you anything.
00:46:25.720This is a negotiation. He's just like the other note writers, right? Just like the original note writers who claim they have Nancy.
00:46:32.520He's claiming, I know who has Nancy. Like, I'll give you absolutely nothing, right? And you'll give me something.
00:46:38.660I'll give you no proof of life and you'll pay me. And this guy, it's like the FBI has already said, tell us if you know who the kidnapper is and we will give you $100,000 if it leads to his arrest.
00:46:47.900If this guy really knows who the kidnapper is, the protocol is very simple. Any idiot could follow it. Just tell them. If you're right, you get $100,000.
00:46:57.080But the reason they don't want to do it is because they're going to have to sit down with FBI agents who are going to identify them and check every bit of what they're saying.
00:47:07.240And that's why they want no part of it because they have no bona fides and no position to even, you know, make these claims.
00:47:13.820Last question before I let you guys go. There's all sorts of news today. We're going to get into it in our next panel too.
00:47:20.540But about a turf war unfolding between Sheriff Nonos and the FBI.
00:47:25.900That the FBI wanted to send the DNA that it's getting from the crime scene and related searches like the gloves that were found when the New York Post was tracking law enforcement to Quantico, to the FBI lab.
00:47:37.740And that Sheriff Nonos said no. That early on he had sent things to a Florida lab he trusts and he just wants to send everybody, everything to that lab for consistency.
00:47:47.980He says, you can trust this lab. The FBI has got a great lab too, but this lab already has been processing for us and we're going to stay with them.
00:47:55.760And the FBI clearly has been speaking to the media, pointing the finger at him, you know, like this guy, you know, he's not cooperating.
00:48:04.540He doesn't really want us there, which is not a good sign.
00:48:07.880It's like my overall thought is this is not a good sign that they're on the eve of an arrest because, you know, as they say, success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan.
00:48:15.240You know, once they start doing this, it's like very bad for Nancy does not does not mean they found Nancy or are close to finding her or a kidnapper.
00:48:23.680But can I get your quick takes on the turf war?
00:48:27.120The sheriff's denying it. The sheriff's saying we get along fine.
00:48:29.660You know, we're not going to let the media divide us.
00:48:32.240I happen to know there is consternation over at the FBI with this sheriff and it is his investigation.
00:48:37.200The protocol is it belongs to the locals unless they want to give it over to the FBI or let the FBI take the lead, which he clearly doesn't.
00:48:48.860First of all, if the sheriff is the one making the calls as to where the evidence is going, he's the one that's in charge of the investigation.
00:49:15.220And I think, you know, I think the line officers and FBI agents are doing everything they can and they're just going.
00:49:23.060They're doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing.
00:49:25.380It's just the bosses, it sounds like, that are that are having issues with each other.
00:49:29.120And there were, you know, to be fair, there were big issues at the Boston bombing.
00:49:32.420And I think I'm pretty sure in that instance, one FBI boss was removed because so I know the FBI is ready, willing and able to remove someone if they're the big problem.
00:49:45.400But here, from everything I'm hearing, because all the sheriff's deputies and former deputies and everything are all saying the same thing as the FBI agents.
00:49:54.400So it sounds like the outlier seems to be the actual sheriff.
00:49:58.840But the truth, the truth will prevail at some point.
00:50:03.480They'll all be, you know, kumbayaing it fits if they find this abductor.
00:50:08.400Yeah, an interesting combination is alpha males, high profile, unsolved case, and at least one elected official.
00:50:18.320And you put those three together and, of course, media coverage and all those other ancillary factors in there.
00:50:24.020It's going to create these turf wars or at least these problems.
00:50:30.860It was the chief moose who was the head of Montgomery County Police Department.
00:50:33.920He was technically in charge and there, I witnessed some shouting matches in there and going back and forth between not just the FBI, but every alphabet agency in Washington, D.C. area was involved in that case because everybody's getting shot.
00:50:47.660Even an FBI employee eventually was killed.
00:50:50.140So, yeah, these things are going to happen.
00:52:15.540You'd get the red carpet treatment and you'd get better treatment than like the average person.
00:52:23.380I mean, I think that's what the average person thinks, that these celebrities get like the red carpet and like a level up.
00:52:29.500And there's no question that if this were, you know, some Jane Smith, 84-year-old woman, we would not have anywhere near this level of media coverage or law enforcement coverage and not anywhere near.
00:52:41.400So there is some of that, but there's also the risk of like what happened to Kobe Bryant where like that helicopter pilot flew when he had to know he shouldn't have because it was Kobe Bryant.
00:52:55.980And he didn't just follow protocol because it was Kobe Bryant.
00:53:01.000And like I've had some of this in my own life too, where you're like, it's actually not a gift for them to treat you in any special way whatsoever.
00:53:08.200I just want to be treated just like you would treat anybody else.
00:53:10.560And so like if this sheriff is holding on to this case and not sending evidence where, you know, he could voice this off on the FBI and it could be their problem, that'd be great.
00:53:20.440But like, does he really want to take himself off of the Savannah Guthrie case and not be the one to bring Nancy home and possibly get all the glory?
00:53:31.060You know, I don't think he's yet at the phase where he's like, I'm going to get all the blame if I don't solve this.
00:53:35.120And I wonder whether that's hurting this case.
00:53:37.560Some of these personality issues can definitely chime in here.
00:53:46.700I kind of touched on it, you know, a few minutes ago.
00:53:50.560But a true and either the pilot you referred to with Kobe Bryant and others, if you're a true professional, if you have hopefully decades, you know, one, one and a half plus decades of experience, you know not to fall for those traps.
00:54:06.820You know not to back off on what's gotten you to where you are at this point in time.
00:54:11.680And I'm not saying, you know, we're going to give the benefit of the doubt despite some, you know, people at loggerheads.
00:54:18.180I'm going to assume the investigation is still running the best it can at this point in time with a number of agencies involved, including our own, me and Maureen, the FBI.
00:54:26.880And I'm just hoping that some of this is just, you know, fodder for the media, let other people think this is what's happening.
00:54:33.020Maybe some of it's true, but we're still going to get the job done.
00:54:35.620But if you're truly experienced, you're going to get it done right.
00:54:38.080Maureen, don't you think some of this is coming because the media is used to CSI and they think this should be solved already?
00:54:45.440And there's a lot of pressure on the law enforcement, FBI and local in why haven't you solved this case?
00:54:52.440And so that's when you start to see stories planted of it's him, you know, this guy, right?
00:55:00.120And then now he feels the need to fight back and he's given an interview to Matt Finn of Fox News, which we're going to talk about a little bit more with our next panel.
00:55:05.700But to me, this this has a little bit of that in it.
00:55:12.680I think I really think everyone's heart.
00:55:16.420Well, most everyone, except for a couple of outliers.
00:55:19.260I think their hearts in the right place and they're just pushing as hard as they can and they're trying as hard and they're working longer and overtime shifts left, right and center.
00:55:28.600And, you know, I think people are really trying because that's been my experience on all these big.
00:55:34.380And there are times where you see breakdowns and meaning like it's it just gets to be too much, all of it.
00:55:41.360I think the media does add a whole bunch of extra pressure.
00:55:45.500But then there's someone out there like Brian Enten, who's, you know, out there making news for for everyone and doing doing a good job.
00:55:53.780So everyone knows that the stakes are high.
00:55:59.040And, you know, that's when you just have to put your head down and keep your ammo dry and keep going and hope to God you've got a good leader that's going to get you what you need.
00:56:10.980Stay out of your way and keep everyone off your back.
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00:58:50.320My guests who join me now are Chad Ayers, James Hamilton, and Will Geddes, who you've come to know well this week.
00:59:00.700And they're going to weigh in on some of these latest developments, including they were listening to the last discussion.
00:59:04.640Let's just pick it up where we left it off, guys, on this alleged turf war.
00:59:08.120I want to tell you what the sheriff is saying, because the reason he gave an interview when he came out earlier this week and said, I'm not giving any interviews.
00:59:15.160I'm done. I'm done with that right now, not unless there's breaking news.
00:59:17.860But he gave an interview to Fox News' Matt Finn on a lot of things.
00:59:22.580Let me just give you some of the highlights, because he did make news in the case proper, as opposed to just the turf war.
00:59:28.100He says, first of all, it is not true that his office found a glove at Nancy's home.
00:59:33.180There had been a news report that, in addition to that pair of gloves that were found on the road, that a glove had been found inside Nancy Guthrie's house and that it had been shipped off.
00:59:43.740He said, that's not true. We have no glove. We have never found a glove on the property.
00:59:47.500He did say, though, that they have found a lot of gloves, not just the pair that the New York Post happened to be on site when they retrieved in this case.
00:59:55.940You know, to the point we were discussing yesterday, it's not that unusual to see gloves discarded in, you know, the desert near cacti and so on.
01:00:06.480And he defended his use of that one lab, saying, we started sending the Guthrie evidence to this lab from the start, and along with the Guthrie family DNA and other DNA swabs are all there, too.
01:00:18.920So it makes sense, he said, to keep sending the incoming evidence there so the lab can immediately run the new evidence against what is already in-house.
01:00:27.040Hold on a second, because he says that in Soundbite 6, which we have on tape.
01:00:31.800I split your evidence to two different labs. That could create a conflict, but more importantly, it adds that additional step.
01:00:39.300This lab has this piece, this lab has this piece. Now they've got to converge those two pieces to make an elimination or identification.
01:00:49.580No, just send it to one lab. Let's go. They're both great labs.
01:00:53.260Okay, so let's start there, guys. What do we make of that argument? Because some people really are hammering him for not using the FBI's lab at Quantico.
01:01:02.900James is the former FBI-er. I'll start with you on that.
01:01:06.060Hey, good to see you again. Thanks for having me. I feel almost clairvoyant in that yesterday, I think we said this exact same thing.
01:01:13.260And we said that, you know, that everything looks good on the outside, but behind the scenes, there's going to be friction, and here we are.
01:01:21.320I'm not surprised by it at all. There is some pretty good evidence that, you know, no pun intended, that the FBI lab at Quantico is a superior choice.
01:01:32.800And mostly because they do this all the time, they created the technology, they have access to the CODIS database.
01:01:39.720You know, it's a high-profile case, but, you know, the sheriff made a call, and obviously people aren't happy about it, and they're going to try to drive a wedge.
01:01:49.560And I think you were spot on earlier when you were saying that, you know, we haven't caught anybody, and now it's looking bad, and now we're going to start pointing fingers.
01:02:08.540And so it almost, to me, took out a big eraser and erased all of our leads.
01:02:12.600Like, I think, I'm starting to think now they're all bullshit, because they don't seem close to arresting somebody well.
01:02:19.320They don't talk like this when they're close to arresting somebody.
01:02:21.520No. I mean, certainly my experience on negotiations, one of the biggest, biggest challenges is just trying to control information.
01:02:29.560And that's information that's not only imparted by the law enforcement agencies, if they are involved, or it could be the media, or it could actually be the family itself.
01:02:38.880So it's about containment of that information, not setting designated schedules for updates or anything like that, and being very cautious about what information is going to be revealed that could potentially heed the law enforcement agencies or the investigative agencies that are getting involved in this.
01:02:54.000So I think there is some ego that's kicking off here with the sheriff, and I think, you know, he's bathing in the spotlight right now as being the sort of the center point for this.
01:03:05.440And that's concerning, because, I mean, how many cases of this type has he managed before?
01:03:10.800And it's only with a lot of years' experience that you realize, actually, the less you say, you know, the better.
01:03:16.560Mm-hmm. Yes, I know. I mean, well, Chad, there's been the difference between the sheriff two Mondays ago and the sheriff that has emerged this week, right?
01:03:25.880Like, when this case first broke, he was talking to everybody.
01:03:29.100And that seemed okay, because it was a missing persons case.
01:03:31.960It was like, we all have to find her. We need the community's help.
01:03:34.220Everybody pitch in, find Nancy, all hands on deck.
01:03:36.980And then the FBI got involved, and then suddenly he wasn't saying as much.
01:03:40.880And then they held that Thursday presser, and they haven't had a presser since.
01:03:44.180And now since then, it's just been rumor, innuendo, accusations behind the scenes, you know, some leaks to the media, then some denials.
01:03:56.020Yeah, I mean, that's the frustrating part.
01:03:57.960And I think the sad part through all of this is, at the end of the day, there's still a family that's looking for their missing mother.
01:04:05.560And this isn't the type of bullshit they need to be hearing or having to deal with.
01:04:09.880So, listen, I've worked plenty of cases with, you know, three-letter agencies, whether it was the FBI, the DEA.
01:04:17.400And sometimes, listen, you've got to lower your pride a little bit and realize that, listen, I was a local law enforcement officer, and I understand the resources that the Bureau has.
01:04:28.740And so it's not them coming over here and trying to take a part of my case.
01:04:33.560It's us trying to work together, and that's really what needs to happen.
01:04:36.640Like, there's so much tension right now in this case because it's such a high-profile case.
01:04:52.640I can't help but wonder, and who would know?
01:04:55.160I mean, no one has experience, no civilian, in dealing with a kidnapping.
01:04:58.780Oh, I know exactly what to do or who to call.
01:05:00.860But, you know, it's been confirmed that Savannah's first – one of her first calls was to Senator Mark Kelly, who is her home state senator, the state of Arizona, a U.S. senator, Gabby Gifford's husband.
01:05:11.780And kind of asked him for help and, like, let's line things up appropriately.
01:05:16.960And it looks like they went with the locals.
01:05:20.040They put the locals in the lead, and they trusted the sheriff, and they didn't insist, as I think you probably could try to, that the FBI got brought in, which is, you know, kidnappings and, you know, possible ransom.
01:05:32.860That's, I guess, when the sheriff called in on the ransom, the FBI.
01:05:36.600But, like, one wonders whether the FBI should have been there day one, James, and, like, running hurt on this.
01:05:44.620Yeah, you've got to be careful on this just because they don't have the jurisdiction.
01:06:12.260Now, if we had solid evidence that she had, God forbid, been taken to Mexico, international kidnapping, the FBI is going to be at the lead.
01:06:19.620If we had information, it went across state lines, FBI.
01:06:23.480But right now, they just don't have that federal nexus that they can come in, you know, in the typical movie fashion, and FBI, we're in charge.
01:08:01.280And I think he's obviously not very happy about having to reengage with them and not allow him to do the proper police work, as he puts it.
01:08:08.900But one of my concerns, Megan, that I did want to raise, which sort of goes back a little bit, is about the classification of what this case actually is.
01:08:17.360In the private sector, you know, we have one of the advantages we have is that we don't actually have to interact with media agencies.
01:08:24.740We can keep it completely under wraps and keep it very, very quiet.
01:08:28.040But at the same time, when we're talking to the family, if someone has gone missing, it's always going to be a missing person until such time as a credible proof of life has been sent with a ransom demand.
01:08:42.020And my concern is that this has been classified as a kidnapping.
01:08:45.680There has been no credible proof of life that has been provided yet.
01:08:49.640So, again, it changes the dynamic somewhat in how it would be approached.
01:08:54.600And, again, I very much welcome Chad and James's input on that from their perspective as well.
01:09:00.440Right. Should they be treating this as, I've heard one of you guys call it, a homicide nobody as opposed to kidnapping?
01:09:09.980Well, before Chad jumps in, I would say real quick with regards to that interview, the FBI is the only one that investigates cops.
01:09:17.780Now, the state police can do it, and certainly there's IAs in, you know, bigger metropolitan divisions.
01:09:23.220But the FBI by, you know, charter, they work color law violations against police.
01:10:08.120It should have been recognized initially that once this is labeled an abduction, get a task force together and bring on the FBI and ask them to take it over.
01:11:23.300Your investigators, listen, people out there are telling me I've got a buddy of mine that's out there in the area that's affiliated with that law enforcement agency.
01:11:31.360Not directly, but is very close to those people in saying that the investigators want the help of the Bureau, but the upper management is the one that's knocking that down.
01:11:38.860That's what Maureen seemed to be saying.
01:11:40.360She said, I guarantee you the rank and file would love the help, but the leadership is a different story.
01:11:45.220Here's what President Trump said, which is, I will say, telling.
01:12:40.000You tell me, James, is it like, Jim, is the FBI's lab at Quantico so special that nothing could be, it can't be replicated by some good lab in Florida?
01:12:49.620Well, it's the premier criminal lab in the world.
01:12:54.460So that's probably better than the one in Florida.
01:12:57.580It does have, again, access to that DNA database.
01:13:08.780Well, that lab in Florida is going to have to ask the FBI for access to the CODIS system.
01:13:13.240So it's another step that you don't have to be making if we just go direct to the FBI.
01:13:16.600But I really want to circle back real quick to the videos because you've got the sheriff saying, and this is very typical, the sheriff saying, you know, we're the real cops.
01:13:30.360And then you heard his former deputy chief say, yeah, he thinks he's the only one that can investigate anything.
01:13:36.560And, you know, frankly, I don't, you know, I can't tell you how many people I worked with in my academy class who were former cops.
01:13:43.740I'm a former cop, but we don't go around beating our chest about it, but you don't get any credit for it.
01:13:49.600You know, that sheriff would have you think that the FBI doesn't have a soul that ever worked law enforcement before they got to the bureau.
01:14:00.480That's actually quite interesting because it dovetails perfectly with his behavior that he is running herd on it, that we are getting some quiet complaints from the feds that they're not getting the cooperation they need.
01:14:11.600And they think is necessary to solve the case.
01:14:15.040And now you have Nanos, who clearly is worried about his image, because why would he be sitting down doing an interview when he said, I'm not giving any interviews, two thirds of which was spent on this turf war if he weren't worried about his image.
01:14:27.880And also, I think I'm sorry, James, go ahead.
01:14:31.460Well, Chad and I both come from, you know, southern sheriff's departments.
01:15:23.120Yeah, no, I was just going to sort of just compliment what James and Chad were saying.
01:15:26.420And I mean, and certainly from my experience around the world, you know, when I've been connected to kidnappings in some shape or form, the FBI, if this does turn out to be a kidnapping and a credible proof of life is presented, then the FBI are one of the best, if not the best negotiators and crisis managers of these types of events.
01:15:46.680So I'm sorry, Sheriff, you know, get back in your lane, because to be honest, he's stepping well beyond his capability and should be leaving it to the experts to get on with it and compliment him.
01:15:56.900Especially at this point when we're not, we don't appear.
01:16:00.480I mean, I want to say we don't appear close to solving it.
01:25:16.140We're kind of playing both sides there.
01:25:18.540And I didn't want to really quick go back to the comment.
01:25:21.480And he said that it's not their job to clean up the blood.
01:25:25.400Yes, I agree with you and Chad and and will that it was given up too soon.
01:25:31.240And now, by the way, when you go back with your white tent to get whatever it's compromised, OK, defense attorney is going to have a field day with that.
01:26:00.580That's OK that her poor family is going to have to go and clean up the blood?
01:26:04.840You know, certainly you have crime scene people who have vendors that do, you know, just disposal and cleaning of crime scenes and terrible like suicides and stuff.
01:26:14.380That is a service that we are all familiar with through the coroner's office.
01:26:27.640I just I find that to be quite, quite callous.
01:26:30.680It's just I also feel like isn't it a little odd?
01:26:33.140I don't know, like to leave Nancy's blood sitting there like that's that's evidence.
01:26:37.220Don't you try to preserve that and like bottle it or, you know, keep it someplace for trial as opposed to just leaving all those blood droplets on the porch?
01:52:46.020And they post this with the caption, nothing beats a mom hug.
01:52:52.660Chanel shares that Adrienne Balen Houghton's mom comforted her, Chanel, in the days after Chanel's husband's passing, which was a tragic event that happened, I think, earlier this year.
01:53:06.080I'm sorry, but what news organization, what set of producers, what news anchor who is responsible for that account would allow nothing beats a mom hug to go out on the Today Show social media?
01:53:21.700The same day, Savannah Guthrie posted this to her Instagram about her mom.
01:53:31.560It's video of Nancy Guthrie, much younger.
01:54:23.940I'm sorry, but network television is a vicious, thoughtless, heartless, nasty place.
01:54:30.920And you should not be misled into thinking you are watching loving, wonderful people who are just, it is not what they would have you believe.
01:54:40.000And I just think that it was a despicable oversight, intentional move.
01:57:25.780What Savannah's going through is genuinely awful, horrible tragedy.
01:57:30.420Everything that's happening on the set of that show is theater.
01:57:36.160I believe that Tom Winter, the reporter they're using for reporting on this issue, is an honest reporter who is doing his very best to stick to just the facts and to not get ahead of his skis on anything out of respect for the family.
01:57:50.420He was, it's not, he hasn't been perfect, but he's been legit.
01:57:53.960And I think he tries his best to stay factual.
01:57:57.160But as for the propaganda that gets pushed out on their evening news or their morning news show, beware and don't buy it because that was pretty damn heartless.
01:58:45.540You know, don't get me started on the abortion issue.
01:58:47.700Trust me, we've all had many debates about it.
01:58:50.860But the way we all come together when someone's life is in jeopardy, whether it's minors in a cave or a little toddler who we can't find or the mystery around four Idaho college students who met a grisly end,
01:59:09.260the nation wants answers and it wants accountability and it wants a rescue.
01:59:14.420If there's any chance for a rescue and then and or justice, the nation wants it.