The Megyn Kelly Show - Luigi Mangione's Suppressed Evidence, Mackenzie Shirilla’s ＂Crash＂ Doc - ＂Positively Legal＂ with Mark Eiglarsh and Jonna Spilbor

00:00:00.000 Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly, and today we are bringing you this week's episode of our new

00:00:04.140 MK True Crime show, Positively Legal. It's hosted by Kelly's Court OGs Mark Eichlarsh and Jonna

00:00:10.640 Spilboer. Take a listen, enjoy, and if you like what you hear, head on over to mktruecrime.com

00:00:16.780 to see where you can subscribe to all of our true crime content, or just make it easy on yourself.

00:00:21.440 Go to the Purple Podcast button on your phone, type in MK True Crime, and hit subscribe. And do

00:00:26.180 the same over at YouTube. Enjoy.

00:00:30.000 Hello, and welcome to Positively Legal.

00:00:37.000 I'm Jonna Spilbore, a criminal defense attorney, shoe maven, and founder of Jonna Spilbore Law.

00:00:44.160 Hello, everyone. I'm Mark Eiglarsh.

00:00:46.420 I'm a criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, adjunct law professor, avid pickleball player, and an all-around fan of my co-host, Jonna.

00:00:56.480 Love when you add that in.

00:00:57.960 Today, Positively Legal, a judge has blocked major evidence from Luigi Mangione's state trial.

00:01:07.360 And we're going to discuss that and the vile superfans sporting press passes outside a Manhattan courthouse.

00:01:17.700 And I am super excited, John, that we get to talk about this Netflix documentary.

00:01:22.580 It's the number two show in the country right now.

00:01:25.100 It's called The Crash, and the accused, who was merely 17-year-old at the time of The Crash, went to prison.

00:01:35.300 And we're going to discuss whether she deserved to go to prison for the amount of time that she did.

00:01:40.080 We sure will.

00:01:41.340 And later, I already know I'm going to love this guest.

00:01:45.480 Ginny Burton is joining us to share her remarkable story of how she used incarceration as an intervention and how she is working to shape public policy.

00:01:56.780 Talk about somebody who literally turned her life around.

00:02:00.580 We're going to be speaking with Ginny later in the show. 0.99

00:02:02.980 What a story. 0.96

00:02:03.800 Oh, my goodness.

00:02:04.900 What she went through from childhood to now.

00:02:07.820 Extraordinary.

00:02:08.420 So glad she's on.

00:02:09.580 But right now, Jonna.

00:02:11.480 Yeah.

00:02:12.040 It's happy hour time.

00:02:14.760 You got a beverage?

00:02:15.820 What are you drinking?

00:02:17.280 I don't.

00:02:17.800 I have a seltzer.

00:02:18.840 And the thing I want to talk about is not that happy.

00:02:22.740 I got to tell you something.

00:02:23.880 So let me ask you.

00:02:26.300 Yeah.

00:02:26.540 When you wake up in the morning, after you get done with the pigeon pose and the warrior and all that.

00:02:32.160 You mean reaching out to my higher power?

00:02:34.500 Yeah.

00:02:35.180 After you do that.

00:02:36.320 I do it.

00:02:37.020 Yeah.

00:02:37.300 Do you turn on the television?

00:02:38.540 Do you watch anything in the morning while you're getting ready for the office?

00:02:41.560 No.

00:02:42.040 No.

00:02:42.320 No.

00:02:42.920 Evil.

00:02:43.560 No.

00:02:43.920 No, why? Poison myself with all that bad news and stuff, the human race consciousness garbage? Not yet. No. 0.99

00:02:52.220 Who would want to do that? I don't know. But I do every morning.

00:02:57.480 So I have been, there was a story that I heard on the news this morning before I left my house that I can't stop thinking about.

00:03:04.660 Here is why. You do personal injury. I do personal injury. I know we're here. We talk about criminal offense. We do a lot of that.

00:03:10.880 There was a story that is so bizarre that I have to share it.

00:03:15.940 So here's the story.

00:03:17.300 Woman, 56 years old, you could argue, prime of her life, driving her SUV in Manhattan

00:03:25.040 last night, parks it in one of the most traversed, busiest areas of the city, 5th Avenue, Midtown, 0.99

00:03:33.660 Fifth Avenue, 52nd Street, Fox SUV gets out of her SUV, immediately falls into an uncovered manhole.

00:03:45.180 I don't know.

00:03:46.080 Like the visual must be like literally her whole entire body, according to the story, into an uncovered manhole.

00:03:53.300 I hate when I do that.

00:03:54.340 Yeah.

00:03:54.560 And what happened next?

00:03:55.420 She died.

00:03:56.600 Oh, dude. 1.00

00:03:57.420 Killed her. 0.96

00:03:58.240 Oh, my God. 0.99

00:03:59.240 Debbie Downer, you're bringing that to happy hour. 0.52

00:04:01.700 Oh, my goodness.

00:04:02.420 Listen, this is why. I mean, it's just so bizarre. Number one, like I don't even know how that actually happened. Right. Number two, of course, it's somebody's going to pay. Not that that's going to help anything. But it really makes me wonder, like, I'm in the city all the time. You're going to be in the city next week. You never, ever think about something that I worry, you know, scaffolding all the time. Do I try to avoid it? Yes. Something going to fall on my head and take me out. Air conditioning. What? That's, you know, that's happened. I've had clients who've had their

00:04:32.220 air conditioning units fall out of their windows. Right. You think about that. You never think

00:04:37.840 about stepping outside your car into a hole so big that it literally sucks you up and you die

00:04:43.840 instantly. I don't want to do the rest of the show. You've completely and thoroughly bummed me

00:04:47.380 out. That's why to start my day with that kind of news. I just I couldn't do it. I mean, that's

00:04:53.080 that's, you know, it's around the age of me and my wife. And now I got to picture her dying because

00:04:58.340 I don't know what some city worker didn't cover it back up or or some homeless excuse me I was

00:05:04.960 about to say homeless unhoused person I have to say that this root side entrepreneur is too much

00:05:11.720 might have removed the the cover I don't know to sell for for recycling I don't know why that why

00:05:18.780 that got off but but somebody died that's that's just tragic that'll be a problem if somebody

00:05:24.200 removed just in terms of liability although i think the manhole was the the electric company

00:05:29.840 con ed if somebody did remove it and con ed didn't have notice can you imagine they're fighting on

00:05:36.840 whether they should pay out i don't think they'll do that but that could possibly happen but here's

00:05:41.120 why you shouldn't be mad at me for telling you that story tell me you should not be mad at me

00:05:44.920 because now that i've told you this bizarre story yeah what if it makes you think twice and saves you

00:05:50.540 from falling into a manhole maybe i just shouldn't go to new york at the end of the week

00:05:55.620 how about that right just just watch just watch or you should be watching where you're going anyway

00:06:00.320 when you're in in the city don't be i hate those people who are like you know what they practice

00:06:05.000 each other like this but they don't look in front of them yeah that's also annoying okay one other

00:06:11.020 thing just one other thing before you go to new york city just because my pet peeve when you're

00:06:14.740 walking on the sidewalk with your wife or your kids or wherever you're there with no you cannot

00:06:18.840 walk horizontally

00:06:20.860 like no like a rock band

00:06:22.980 stay to one side

00:06:24.600 because people like me gotta scoot around

00:06:26.980 you alright okay so why

00:06:28.900 don't we lighten up the podcast by talking

00:06:30.880 about murder like

00:06:32.720 Luigi Mangione I mean

00:06:34.360 this is like the murder podcast supposed to be

00:06:36.840 positively legal positive

00:06:38.780 something positive Jonna

00:06:40.660 you've bummed me the hell out we're gonna

00:06:42.700 find something positive although

00:06:44.760 Luigi Mangione just when you

00:06:46.760 think that his group of fans, first of all, no murderer should really have fans, but we know

00:06:55.180 they do, could not be any more vile. We're going to talk about that in a second. But there was a

00:06:59.340 big ruling in the Luigi Mangione case this week. I don't like it. I don't appreciate it. I sort of

00:07:08.320 disagree with it, but I'm not surprised by it. You do. What part do you disagree? And just

00:07:13.060 Like, fill everybody in and then you can tell us what what you disagree with.

00:07:17.360 OK, so just just to recap for those who are like Mark and don't watch TV first thing in the morning.

00:07:23.880 Not first thing. Eventually get around to it. I want to ruin my day.

00:07:27.260 So Luigi Mangione, he is charged in both state and federal court, New York and federal court, for the caught on camera, undeniable, 100 percent murder that is on tape because he did it on a busy city street before a convention.

00:07:47.580 He killed a man named Brian Thompson, who is CEO of, I guess it's the largest, if not one of the largest health care companies in the country.

00:07:56.180 you know john i'm interrupting right away because i always get this question you know i i would have

00:08:00.940 probably announced it the same way you did people would say oh you're a defense attorney don't you

00:08:07.000 believe in the presumption of innocence it sounds like you're already convicting him

00:08:10.180 wouldn't tell people when when they say that to you uh i say that the there is no such thing as

00:08:16.440 the presumption of innocence i know that we talk a good game but in actuality mark come on you know

00:08:22.200 when we're representing criminal defendants yeah we often have to prove their innocence it's not

00:08:28.800 called that we don't say it out loud but that right essentially what needs to happen even before

00:08:34.160 trial especially before trial when you're negotiating a case with a prosecutor who gets

00:08:38.760 to decide whether or not there's going to be a deal in your case by the way the prosecutor is

00:08:43.840 the one who does that so but i just want to tell you what i tell myself and what i tell others so

00:08:49.440 I don't feel guilty. Right. Okay. The presumption of innocence applies to the six or 12 jurors

00:08:56.120 assembled in that jury box. We want to make sure they can presume or believe the defendant is

00:09:00.580 innocent before they hear the evidence. It doesn't apply to the court of public opinion.

00:09:05.280 It doesn't apply to my office right now. It doesn't apply to this podcast. It doesn't apply

00:09:09.960 to my house. It applies solely to court. So we can opine anytime we want that somebody is

00:09:18.300 damn guilty, particularly when our own eyes are seeing a video that we don't think was manufactured

00:09:23.420 by AI. And we can say, he's likely guilty. And if there's anything wrong with that, 0.99

00:09:30.160 what the hell with you? We're allowed to have an opinion, right?

00:09:32.820 That's a good answer. And I will, I don't think, there's no question that the video is actually

00:09:37.620 real. And the video shows him shooting this man in the back in cold blood on a busy Manhattan

00:09:42.420 street. So we can talk about the presumption of innocence all day long. But, okay.

00:09:47.680 So what was suppressed?

00:09:48.700 What was let in?

00:09:49.820 So now he had a state court hearing because his defense attorneys who are doing a great job, that's what defense attorneys are supposed to do.

00:09:56.380 They moved to suppress some of the evidence in the case.

00:09:58.900 Because if you remember, when Luigi Mangione was, he wasn't in custody.

00:10:05.900 When he was detained in a McDonald's, when police were, like, suspicious that he could be who we thought he was, they overstepped basically what you can do without a warrant in terms of searching somebody who you suspect of committing a crime.

00:10:22.540 Here's what I want to talk about.

00:10:24.000 I want to know from you the stuff that was let in.

00:10:28.240 Everybody's going, oh, all this stuff is out. 0.99

00:10:30.280 Who gives a crap? 0.92

00:10:31.860 What was let in includes the gun that allegedly shot the guy, his manifesto. 0.99

00:10:39.980 If you're the prosecutors, the defense will call it a diary.

00:10:42.860 I don't care what you call it.

00:10:44.560 It includes his thought process that these people needed to die. 0.95

00:10:49.440 These types of people.

00:10:50.340 I mean, it is so specific.

00:10:52.080 How is this ultimately not a huge victory for the government?

00:10:56.860 Oh, the government still has a case.

00:10:59.060 Their case really, to be honest, isn't overly affected by this, which, so sidebar, the defense attorneys who are very knowledgeable and very skilled know this, right?

00:11:11.860 I don't think they were expecting all of the evidence to get suppressed, right?

00:11:16.660 And you're not going to be able to suppress the video.

00:11:18.960 So what kind of victory is it when just a little bit of it got suppressed, but the rest of it is still ample to support a murder conviction, assuming this case goes to trial or they decide to plead him to something?

00:11:32.360 So it's a victory for due process because his lawyers needed to file this motion.

00:11:38.980 If they didn't, you and I would say they've rendered ineffective assistance of counsel, which he deserves.

00:11:45.520 So you filed a motion. They went through it. They challenged the evidence. And what remains is still, to me, proof beyond the exclusion of every reasonable doubt is still plenty. But, you know, before we go on, because I really want to get to his fan club, which has got my backup. Can we play? We do have a thought, I believe, of the judge rendering his decision in that motion. Can we play that one?

00:12:09.600 They find that the search of the backpack at the McDonald's was improper, warrantless search, that the backpack was not within the immediate control or grabable area of the defendant, and further, the people failed to demonstrate exigent circumstances.

00:12:27.400 Therefore, those items found in the backpack during the search at the McDonald's will be suppressed.

00:12:34.600 However, the people have established that the subsequent search of the backpack at the station was a valid inventory search, and therefore, the items recovered at the station will not be suppressed.

00:12:48.240 So as to the authority issue, I find that the defendant was not in custody until about 9.47 a.m. So any statements before that will not be suppressed.

00:13:02.400 However, as Miranda warnings were not given until some seconds after 9.48 in the morning, those statements made shortly before that in response to improper custodial questions that were not merely a request for pedigree information will be suppressed.

00:13:24.240 All right.

00:13:24.520 The remaining statements will not be suppressed as they were either spontaneous.

00:13:29.840 Yada, yada, yada.

00:13:30.560 Yada, yada.

00:13:31.140 So look, this is a victory for our rights because for everybody's rights, right?

00:13:36.300 Because even a murderer, they apply the Constitution and it is a presumptive improper search unless there's a warrant, unless you have some type of exception.

00:13:45.700 In this case, okay, they found it at the police station.

00:13:49.800 They were allowed to then search it at the police station.

00:13:52.780 But on scene, the things that they found get suppressed.

00:13:55.680 Okay, great.

00:13:56.900 Justice was done.

00:13:57.900 Yes?

00:13:58.360 Hallelujah.

00:13:59.020 Yes.

00:13:59.280 Yes.

00:13:59.680 Okay.

00:14:00.240 So let's move on.

00:14:01.200 Let's move on.

00:14:02.580 Let's talk about it.

00:14:03.520 Did you?

00:14:04.100 I'm going to put you on the spot because I don't know if you did your homework and watch this documentary.

00:14:09.080 So good.

00:14:11.180 Oh, we're going to move on to the crash.

00:14:13.020 You don't want to talk about the super fans?

00:14:14.660 Oh, you know what?

00:14:15.300 Let's do that.

00:14:16.960 Yeah, you're right.

00:14:17.720 We need to.

00:14:18.160 I need to get upset.

00:14:19.180 You're right.

00:14:19.620 Go.

00:14:19.800 No, we really do.

00:14:21.920 Let's play the sot and then we'll just get upset and move on to the crash. 0.88

00:14:25.640 Go.

00:14:25.820 All right.

00:14:26.400 Yeah.

00:14:26.600 um Brian Thompson that's all I want to say Brian Thompson mom I said I said what I said

00:14:35.640 his children are better off without him they need to learn to not be like their dad and enjoy 0.99

00:14:41.940 the blood money kids I'm standing on your face Brian Thompson I don't give a fucking 1.00

00:14:48.000 I got it. Millions of America. 0.99

00:14:50.000 I liked it. 0.98

00:14:52.000 Brian Thompson was a terrorist.

00:14:55.000 And more people should acknowledge this and be appropriate.

00:15:01.000 You should be dancing on the graves if they're equals.

00:15:05.000 You can profit off the killing.

00:15:08.000 That's completely called for as presented and normal. 1.00

00:15:12.000 Disgusting, Jonna. 0.78

00:15:14.000 This should have happened decades, decades ago. 0.96

00:15:18.000 okay, I get it. You got an issue with the healthcare industry. You got an issue with

00:15:22.440 this particular CEO. That's fine. That's what makes our country great. You can advocate all

00:15:27.640 you want, but to suggest that murder is okay because of it, what type of person does that make

00:15:33.960 you? Those three people are pieces of crap. And I can't understand why this man has such a fan 1.00

00:15:42.760 I don't even think it's really for what they think he stands for stands for if they think he stands for. Oh, we're going to effectuate change. The American health care industry sucks. Yeah, it does suck. Right. I got that. That's my health care company. It sucks. But I'm not going to go kill anybody for it. And the fact that his family has to has to hear this and see this. I think he's got such a fan club just because he's a good looking murderer.

00:16:09.200 I don't disagree with you. 0.84

00:16:10.540 Yeah, his shell somehow works for some of these ladies, 1.00

00:16:14.480 and that's why they're justifying it. 1.00

00:16:16.120 And they're just good or crazy.

00:16:17.660 All right, so let's move on.

00:16:18.740 Yeah, because I watched this Netflix documentary.

00:16:23.120 I told my kids to watch it.

00:16:24.560 They all loved it.

00:16:25.660 We talked about it over lunch.

00:16:26.880 It's the number two show in the country.

00:16:28.800 It's called The Crash.

00:16:30.160 17-year-old, her name is Mackenzie Schirrilla.

00:16:34.280 She was 17, and it was July 31, 2022.

00:16:38.740 Here's what's uncontroverted. She drove her car that contained her 20-year-old boyfriend and 19-year-old friend, Davian Flanagan. Her boyfriend was Dominic Russo. She drove that car approximately 100 miles an hour into a brick building. That is uncontroverted. The question is-

00:17:02.340 There's the car.

00:17:03.160 Why?

00:17:04.160 Right?

00:17:04.480 So far, so far, John, we're on the same page, right?

00:17:06.980 Yeah.

00:17:07.240 This is what happened.

00:17:08.280 Question is why?

00:17:09.780 Nobody wanted to believe at first that this was anything more than a tragic accident.

00:17:15.560 Maybe there was a vehicle malfunction.

00:17:18.580 Maybe she was distracted.

00:17:20.080 And so it's not something as sinister as murder.

00:17:26.040 But after they analyzed everything, the car checked out.

00:17:29.920 There was no faulty brakes, no bad equipment.

00:17:32.340 They checked her toxicology. They did. They did that. They found nothing that influenced her driving. And ultimately, they found that she intentionally drove that car into a brick building, causing the death of her boyfriend and friend.

00:17:52.920 without stepping on the brake but yes the no brakes no brakes which kind of begs the question

00:18:04.320 does it not like if you're intending to kill everybody in that car that would include yourself

00:18:10.160 right there's no eject button there but the the prosecutor really went after her with a vengeance

00:18:18.720 And I'll tell you what, if you want, we don't want to really give away the entire show.

00:18:22.900 If you watch the show, you're going to walk away.

00:18:25.440 I did with a genuine disdain for Mackenzie Shirrilla for a number of reasons. 1.00

00:18:32.740 Just spoiled little brat. 1.00

00:18:35.380 Let's see what she did, though. 1.00

00:18:37.120 Let's come.

00:18:37.580 We'll come back to her character.

00:18:38.620 But let's go to Sot 3 and see what police officers were forced to view at the crash site.

00:18:46.260 Take a look at this.

00:18:47.020 This car is split in two. Radio, there's an occupant inside. Send us some squad now.

00:18:53.500 We're going to bust the window out. Send us some more units.

00:18:58.960 Any more units to progress now, Anita? 0.98

00:19:02.520 Now!

00:19:03.440 What are we doing?

00:19:06.200 Perry, Orange, one up.

00:19:08.140 This is not a fresh accident either. She's been here for a while.

00:19:12.220 Radio, we've got at least two occupants in here. No one's moving.

00:19:17.020 oh my god oh my god times three guys radio three occupants no one's conscious

00:19:30.740 no one's breathing

00:19:35.780 bust that window out she's alive we got to get her out somehow

00:19:43.680 horrible completely horrible okay every parent's worst nightmare now but but as you mentioned

00:19:58.460 before we watch that originally i think people thought this was just sort of a horrible accident

00:20:03.180 young kids she probably had a lot of drugs on board she was probably just something that caused 1.00

00:20:08.200 this and they found shrooms they found shrooms in her bag but none in her system so in her

00:20:13.660 system right and then you know i don't know i don't think we have footage of this but for when

00:20:20.060 you watch the documentary her parents her parents play a big role in the documentary and while they

00:20:26.840 seem like seemingly law-abiding people when you hear them talk about her when you hear them talk

00:20:32.760 about the crash the accident you no longer question why mackenzie sharilla did what she did

00:20:39.420 because Mackenzie Schirrilla was raised by wolves.

00:20:44.200 And that contributed to why she thought,

00:20:46.880 either she thought that she was, I don't know,

00:20:49.120 beyond any sort of harm,

00:20:50.840 whether she thought that she was going to turn

00:20:53.100 at the last second and just scare her occupants.

00:20:55.520 I don't know what she was thinking.

00:20:57.840 But I'll tell you what she's thinking now.

00:20:59.520 That's a picture of her at the end of the documentary.

00:21:03.680 I saw very little remorse.

00:21:06.800 Very little remorse.

00:21:08.040 None.

00:21:08.600 She was out. Oh, no, she was she was acting completely inappropriately, like completely tone deaf after the crash, whether she intentionally chose to drive into a building, which ultimately I'm giving it away.

00:21:23.420 the judge found because this was a bench trial in front of the judge and not a jury or whether

00:21:28.620 it was some type of accident that she was responsible for she was completely tone deaf

00:21:35.500 and pissed off all the victims as you'll see in the documentary yeah i do need to split hairs 1.00

00:21:41.040 though for a second go ahead slice slice away my friend even though she is unlikable and even though

00:21:47.140 ultimately she is where she belongs i just had a little bit of a twinge you know murder in most

00:21:55.220 states including where this was which was ohio you know i'm not convinced that she was intending

00:22:01.940 to kill herself and the other and that's why because she is so selfish marf honestly i i don't

00:22:07.940 think she intended to kill herself and if she wasn't intending to kill herself then what she 0.61

00:22:11.960 was doing how would she how could she be deemed to be intending to kill the occupants if she wasn't

00:22:17.740 intending to kill herself i know he was breaking up with her her longtime boyfriend wanted nothing

00:22:23.440 to do with her i don't know what happened in the car that's what all the victims want to know like

00:22:27.820 what exactly happened but we know he didn't want to have anything to do with her there was evidence

00:22:32.160 that a couple weeks before she had said that she was going to do something like this there was a

00:22:36.460 witness who testified to that but here's what got me there are two pieces of evidence that convinced

00:22:41.160 me and i think convince the judge one that was not in the documentary it was in an a and e special

00:22:48.120 we have the clip i asked them to put it together but this one was let's start with number two

00:22:53.160 the thing that was in the documentary you you see her making a safe turn very safe very safe 0.97

00:23:00.860 deliberate slow and then she hauls ass 97 miles an hour no breaks but it wasn't a straight road 0.89

00:23:09.400 It was a curved road. And if she did suffer from pots, like her mother claimed, and thus would have passed out, like they tried to allege erroneously, then the vehicle would have gone off the road earlier. She wouldn't have been able to navigate that curved road until she got into the wall. That's number one. Did you want to respond to that one before I move to the second? 0.87

00:23:30.480 No, you can move on.

00:23:31.540 I'm with you.

00:23:32.000 All right.

00:23:33.200 Number two, a police officer, I think it was a detective, went to visit her in the hospital right after this happened.

00:23:41.980 And they recorded what was said on audio.

00:23:46.040 And she has this conversation with her mother that sounds like pig Latin gibberish. 0.63

00:23:51.280 I want you to hear it and then we'll get into what it was. 0.68

00:23:54.820 Let's go ahead.

00:23:55.440 the crime we're investigating is an aggravated vehicular homicide times two i do want you to know

00:24:02.560 that a lot of people are coming to us and reporting things and so usually yes i was told

00:24:09.160 usually the most accurate information we're going to get is from her if they're just

00:24:13.760 she speaks to her mother in a unique um language yes

00:24:22.140 It's a gibberish or a distortion of the English language. 0.94

00:24:32.100 It's kind of like pig lap.

00:24:36.440 Can we tell the police I had a seizure?

00:24:39.200 Can we tell the police something like that?

00:24:41.000 One of the first things that the girl said to the detective was instantly,

00:24:47.300 can't you just take my driver's license away for 10 years?

00:24:52.140 Can I just, like, take my license away for, like, 10 years or something like that?

00:24:58.220 Jonna, did you even see that?

00:25:00.300 Come on, Jonna.

00:25:01.840 Jonna, two things.

00:25:03.440 One, can you take my license?

00:25:04.680 Hold on one second.

00:25:06.100 Take my license for what?

00:25:07.440 She didn't do anything wrong in her mind. 1.00

00:25:09.260 Bullshit. 1.00

00:25:09.780 She knew what she had done. 1.00

00:25:10.940 And the other thing was, let's just say I had a seizure.

00:25:14.140 They were setting it up from the beginning.

00:25:15.900 Come on, Jonna.

00:25:16.940 That should have been in the, uh, that's not in the Netflix.

00:25:19.860 I know.

00:25:20.380 No. You heard it here on Positively Legal.

00:25:24.260 What planet are you from that you can create a whole little weird non-language language to communicate with your parents who are wolves who raised you?

00:25:33.360 That's bizarre.

00:25:35.100 Right.

00:25:36.120 You know what's funny? Okay, one quick thing, and I know we're going to have to move on, but you know how very recently, oh, God, what is the name?

00:25:43.920 there was a kid uh who shot up a school his parents were convicted be oh what yeah i forget

00:25:51.800 the name that was that in boston crumbly ethan crumbly right right yeah for the first time ever

00:25:57.480 we saw parents prosecuted right conduct of their children we should see it again oh not the facts

00:26:07.220 are different they had made the gun accessible it was a whole different thing and i didn't even

00:26:11.280 agree with that prosecution. But to be continued, I'm going to preview our guest because I'm excited

00:26:16.260 to hear from her. Oh, God, me too. I cannot wait to be speaking with Jenny Burden. She is a systems

00:26:22.860 change agent and author of The Gabriel Plan. She's going to join us. You're not going to

00:26:29.040 want to miss her story. Stay tuned. We'll be right back.

00:26:41.280 Welcome back to Positively Legal, and we are so privileged right now to have joining us

00:26:52.780 Ginny Burton. She's a systems change agent. She's host of the Modern America channel.

00:27:00.500 She's also the author of the book, The Gabriel Plan. Ginny, first of all, thank you so much

00:27:06.620 for joining us. We are extremely grateful for your time. Thank you.

00:27:11.280 Yeah, thank you guys so much for having me.

00:27:14.360 All right. So we got to start at the beginning. And I'm going to go on record and say you never had a chance, girl.

00:27:22.300 I feel so sorry for what you went through, although I know that that's what made you the person you are today.

00:27:29.220 But let's start as a child. What the heck happened?

00:27:32.920 yeah uh arguably um it's exactly what was supposed to happen so uh i was born and forged for such a

00:27:43.560 time as this and um i was born to drug addict parents i mean in the long and short of it and

00:27:49.260 though i compared my life to tv shows um god had a different plan for me

00:27:56.300 and so how bad was it i mean they were obviously not doing what they were supposed to do but what

00:28:03.900 were you witnessing in the household what were you um you know subjecting yourself to uh unwillingly

00:28:10.440 because that wasn't your choice no definitely wasn't my choice um my my house was raided when

00:28:15.740 i was four years old my dad was taken to prison uh shortly after that my mom um her life sort of

00:28:22.480 cascaded into despair and destruction. I think it felt good to her in the beginning because,

00:28:29.800 you know, we're all building the plane as we fly it. And so suggesting that my parents should have

00:28:34.180 done something differently would suggest that they had a different skill set than what they had. So

00:28:38.160 I think that they were functioning from the foundation that they were skilled in. And

00:28:44.700 And fortunately, when you put drugs, chaos, love and children in the same space, you get exactly what that kind of mixture would suggest.

00:28:54.680 And, you know, what I got was a crash course in strength, really, and a real, real college education in the, I think, the real existence of humanity without, you know, the luxuries that we have been conditioned to participate in here in the United States.

00:29:18.720 And so for a long time, I thought my life was happening to me, and I didn't realize that it was happening for me. And today, I just have a very different experience. And, you know, I'm so grateful for the entire thing.

00:29:35.240 My mom and my dad both died in the same way in which they lived, which was in, you know,

00:29:40.440 the outcomes of long-term drug and alcohol abuse.

00:29:45.040 And, you know, there are a plethora of things that go along with that.

00:29:48.340 And like I said, I'm just grateful for it.

00:29:51.340 Weren't they the ones who got you involved in drug use?

00:29:55.100 Not just because of their behavior, but they actively got you involved.

00:29:59.340 Tell us about that.

00:30:00.940 Yeah, my mom did. 0.98

00:30:01.620 She introduced drugs to me.

00:30:03.340 I was seven years old.

00:30:04.940 And I think it made it easier for her to participate in some of the things that she was.

00:30:11.760 And in order for her kids not to say anything, she introduced them to us.

00:30:16.180 And, you know, though I did not like the way that they felt, what I realized was that they provided an escape from the chaos that was very frightening.

00:30:23.700 And, you know, eventually, just like any other condition that we struggle with as human beings, they became patterns of behavior that provided me opportunity to, you know, move around in the environment that I was in.

00:30:37.180 And they served me until they didn't.

00:30:39.820 Were there any good childhood memories?

00:30:41.520 Oh, I mean, yeah. And let me just say, like, I think it's really important to note that because outsiders tend to perceive addiction as just a place of desperation and suffering, arguably, people wouldn't stay in those conditions if they didn't provide some sort of escape.

00:31:01.480 So, you know, it wasn't like just this terrible experience the entire time.

00:31:06.060 There were definitely things that were hard and very frightening.

00:31:08.600 But, you know, yes, I mean, I had six brothers and sisters.

00:31:13.460 We got the opportunity to explore and be free.

00:31:16.420 I mean, I grew up in the 80s.

00:31:17.900 There was definitely violence and fear that came along with all of the life experiences.

00:31:23.120 But, you know, I have a lot of fond memories that I can reflect on, even with my mom, who

00:31:28.460 was my first abuser, et cetera, et cetera.

00:31:31.480 You know, we grew up together. And just the way that I see it now is just very different than the way that I saw it when I was in the midst of it. I had an expectation for a long time for my mom to do something that she didn't have the skill set to do. And, you know, and again, I just want to talk about gratitude. I'm really grateful for it today because what I get the opportunity to do today is teach people how to live differently than their patterns of behavior, if that makes sense.

00:31:59.080 Yeah, I got to ask you. Sorry, Mark, I got to ask you something because your story is is remarkable and so much different than people who suffer very similar to you.

00:32:09.460 Right. Not not everybody breaks free from addiction and turns out to to change themselves and change the world for the better.

00:32:16.940 But you did. So despite being addicted, perhaps at a young age and growing up in that kind of chaos, there had to come a moment or maybe it was a series of moments.

00:32:28.140 that truly changed the way you operated as a person. And is there, and I know it's not a

00:32:36.020 secret sauce, but can you describe for our listeners in case somebody is going through

00:32:39.480 the same thing, what is it that inspired you to change and come out of that chaos in,

00:32:46.980 in such an inspiring way? So I've answered this question so many times and the way that you set

00:32:53.440 it up just caused me to sort of have a different experience with how I'm going to answer. So first

00:33:00.520 of all, I was tired. Uh, you know, every single person I think in the world, um, has behaviors

00:33:09.000 that they don't like the outcomes of, but they don't know how to change them. I, I was just

00:33:13.920 really tired and uh you know I the moment that I was arrested last time I just knew that something

00:33:25.400 needed to change and I realized I realized something really simple which was um I just

00:33:31.400 have to do the opposite of what I've been doing and because I realized that I was the author of

00:33:38.220 my story that the change was going to have to come from me for a really long time I had an

00:33:43.020 expectation for systems and governments and providers to have the answer for me. But how

00:33:52.000 could they have the answer when they had never been there? How old were you when you finally

00:33:56.500 made the shift? Yeah, 40. I just want to say that I think it's really important to say this.

00:34:03.860 Law enforcement was a blessing that intervened to help propel that shift. So, but I was 40 years

00:34:12.740 old. Okay. And you had been arrested how many times? And I say this with love, it's just part

00:34:18.960 of your story, you know? Yeah. Just so you know, my life is an open book. So I, for a long time,

00:34:25.560 I've walked around essentially naked on the stage of the world. Everybody knows my story. So there's

00:34:30.300 no area you cannot go into. I just want to say that right now. But yeah, I don't know. I've been

00:34:36.000 arrested a lot of times. I served three different prison sentences. I've done a number of different

00:34:40.260 jail stays, juvenile justice stays. For a long time, though, I expected other people to, you

00:34:47.000 know, give me what I needed to be able to exist differently. But when I got arrested at 40, I was

00:34:53.820 just, I was sick of it. I was sick of myself, and I knew that something needed to change. So,

00:34:59.580 yeah. Had you gone to rehab any of the times as part of any previous sentences?

00:35:07.960 Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And what's the most amount of time? I'm just curious. What's the

00:35:13.540 most amount of time that you're able to get under your belt? Because maybe that

00:35:16.220 helped when you finally made your decision at 40.

00:35:19.720 A hundred percent. Now, let me just say, I've been to treatment a couple of times. I've been

00:35:23.880 to prison three times prior to this experience. And each of those times, I gathered more information,

00:35:32.640 right so what these industries do is they provide a one dimension of what is necessary which is

00:35:38.800 separation from the destructive path so in saying that it gives a person in the past not not today

00:35:46.160 it's a very different system today it gave or gives a person the opportunity to be removed

00:35:51.940 long enough to get clarity and every single person that i've ever interacted with in any of

00:35:59.020 these spaces, whether it's me residing inside of these spaces or me serving inside of these spaces,

00:36:04.060 they start to develop a plan for how they want their life to be different. Now, I just want to

00:36:10.980 say this. If a person is not practicing new behaviors, the likelihood of those behaviors

00:36:16.760 changing when they exit out of the other end of those institutions, whether it's treatment,

00:36:22.100 whether it's mental health, whether it's shelter, whether it's prison or jail, if they haven't been

00:36:27.460 practicing those behaviors, the likelihood of those behaviors changing is very slim.

00:36:31.980 We as a species gravitate toward familiarity. We gravitate toward familiarity. So when things get

00:36:39.220 harder and comfortable and you have absolutely no idea how to navigate or access things that

00:36:44.300 you want to do to change, you're probably not going to do that. And those are some of the

00:36:49.020 things that I realized at 40. Mind you, I was searching for death. I was sick of it. I thought

00:36:54.320 I was a failure in all areas of my life. Um, but there was a different thing that happened for me

00:36:59.880 when I was arrested and I became clear and, and, you know, and that's like, there's this whole

00:37:04.100 spiritual component to, you know, everything that's happened, but you know, I woke up and

00:37:09.100 that's what happens pretty consistently with most people that end up in these environments when

00:37:14.780 they're not put on drugs. And I'm going to tell you that today when a person is separated, um,

00:37:21.540 They're immediately put on drugs, whether it's through detox, whether it's a treatment program, whether it's prison, they are immediately put on drugs. And when you cannot access the deepest recesses of yourself because you are continued to participate in, you know, chemical escape, what happens is, is people don't ever find that place of clarity.

00:37:44.940 so you don't believe in suboxone to wean people off of no go cold turkey and then yeah i'm not

00:37:53.160 i'm not zero tolerance but i can tell you that i am abstinence based so when we have blamed the

00:37:59.880 pharmaceutical companies for the problem of opiate addiction are we all really so dim that we think

00:38:05.620 that the pharmaceutical companies are actually the answer to the very problem we're suggesting

00:38:09.980 that they created isn't their business model exactly the same how does any drug dealer make

00:38:16.820 money just like any business return customers right they don't profit even some of the rehab

00:38:24.180 i'm a fan of rehab a lot of clients have gone through some of them successfully some of them

00:38:30.100 not they tend to make more money if they have more clients and they have more clients if people

00:38:35.840 remain addicted and i can you talk to this part of it and that is you you just said you were sick

00:38:44.800 and tired of feeling the way you were feeling right the pain of doing what you were doing

00:38:47.940 living the way you were living was just far greater than the pain of change i get that but

00:38:54.020 how can a person you somebody else any professional get inside another person's head to make that

00:39:01.580 switch, to flip that switch. Because I find when I have clients who are not successful in rehab,

00:39:06.860 it's because they are going through the motions. They're saying what the counselors want them to

00:39:10.180 say. They're just doing it. They're sneaking around behind their backs. They haven't been

00:39:13.780 motivated. They're not sick and tired of feeling that way. And if we can bottle whatever it takes

00:39:18.680 to change that in a person's brain, I think we have a lot more successful people who are

00:39:24.700 rehabilitated. But how do you get there? Well, you said some really important things. First of all,

00:39:30.600 our entire system currently is focused on long-term management. So back in between 2013 and

00:39:36.760 2015, we had a massive shift. We saw the DSM-5 change. Everything became diagnosable and

00:39:43.760 prescribable. So when that is the focus, and I can tell you right now, I said it on a federal

00:39:48.720 briefing. I think it was the homelessness EO. It was either the homelessness EO or the treatment EO.

00:39:53.620 I've got some friends, uh, you know, in DC that are involved in a lot of this stuff. Uh, I do

00:40:00.260 consulting on, um, different policy stuff with, uh, currently the state of Tennessee's department

00:40:05.360 of human services. Um, but I was able to sit in on some HUD stuff too, that showed the timeline

00:40:10.780 between 2013 and 2015, which made a lot of sense to me because I was working in the behavioral

00:40:17.280 health industry at the time. So we changed addiction treatment to substance use disorder,

00:40:22.860 with the EO, the briefing that I sat in on, what I saw was a complete rebranding with pharma at the

00:40:32.680 helm of some of these changes. So we have decided that homelessness is a behavioral health problem.

00:40:39.100 So it's Medicaid reimbursable. It's diagnosable. The shift is to move everybody towards some sort

00:40:44.840 of medication-assisted treatment. So I just want to say that. How do we bottle that? Well, first of

00:40:50.400 all, we have the wrong people at the table making decisions when you don't have lived experience who

00:40:55.140 have overcome. I just want to identify that very distinctly. Lived experience who has overcome

00:41:01.020 and not drank the Kool-Aid and bought into this idea of industry standard, which current industry

00:41:07.740 standard is long-term management. If you're not sick, I'm not funded. We've seen a lot of problems

00:41:15.380 with funding and how funding is directly associated with these problems, with people

00:41:24.520 remaining sick, right? So what we can do to bottle stuff, which is what I'm doing inside

00:41:28.800 of prisons today, I'm developing a model that's very intentional. And we have to, when a person

00:41:33.920 is removed and clear, are we ever going to have 100% efficacy? No, we're talking about human

00:41:39.500 beings who like to change the way that they feel. But what we do is during those periods of clarity,

00:41:45.380 We assess deficits. So we take a look at many life domains of the individual who is like, you know, receiving some sort of service inside of these industries, whether it's homelessness, social services, behavioral health, incarceration.

00:42:00.240 The model has to look the same everywhere. And what we have to look for are the outcomes that we seek, not inputs and outputs of the agency that is serving, but the outcomes that we seek with the individuals that are being served.

00:42:12.940 How do we as a system equip and enable individuals to become the strongest version of themselves? Well, we have to first address from lived experience perspectives and engagement. Because I'm sorry, when you have the 25-year-old academic who just came from suburbia, who has never once in their life had a challenge outside of what their parents could solve for them, and we're sending them into these arenas, these doubles dens, which that's exactly what we're doing.

00:42:40.980 we indoctrinate them and we turn them into these advocates that are progressing the very industry

00:42:47.920 that is contributing to the destruction of human life. And that's exactly what we're doing across

00:42:52.680 the country. Can I ask you a question? Let me just ask you a question. Is there any way that

00:42:59.240 you can force change upon someone unless they believe their behavior has become intolerable

00:43:04.980 to themselves? In other words, I watch these programs intervention. Most of the time,

00:43:10.360 I don't think it tells the story because a lot of these people, I think, you know, relapse because the parents are forcing it on them or friends want them to get well.

00:43:19.360 You know, doesn't the individual like you, you worked because you said, I've had enough.

00:43:25.260 How do you force people to get into treatment if they don't want it?

00:43:28.800 It doesn't work, does it?

00:43:31.200 Well, yes, it does, actually.

00:43:35.200 So if there are 15 people that hang out in a house or live in the same place and 12 of them are mountain climbers and the other three are exposed to these people for a long enough period of time, people acclimate.

00:43:48.900 They just acclimate.

00:43:50.000 They're going to start hiking or something.

00:43:51.980 They're going to start eating better or they're going to leave.

00:43:54.500 That's just the way that we function as a species.

00:43:56.880 Yes, you can.

00:43:57.840 You remove people from the destructive path when you're and I don't know one drug addict that doesn't commit some sort of crime.

00:44:03.740 We've decided that possession of narcotics that have the ability to kill people is not a crime. 0.99

00:44:10.620 I think that's the stupidest thing we've ever done as a country. 0.81

00:44:13.760 When we when your civil liberties encroach on my civil liberties as a community member, then you have put yourself in a position to be removed from society until we address your problems. 0.99

00:44:25.060 And so when that happens and we immerse people in an environment where change is actually occurring, we're going to have a much higher likelihood over time that people are going to acclimate to that change.

00:44:36.340 Most people are using drugs and participating in certain behaviors because those are the patterns of behavior that they learn to navigate those environments.

00:44:45.320 People want to have integrity.

00:44:47.720 They want to have self-respect.

00:44:49.740 Again, are we going to have 100% efficacy?

00:44:52.680 No, but this is what I can tell you.

00:44:54.260 I teach a process inside of prisons, and my current numbers are really solid.

00:44:59.520 Out of 51 people that have been released, only one has recidivated.

00:45:03.680 Out of that one that's recidivated, he has made his way back to the program.

00:45:08.800 Because though we participate in familiarity in behaviors that have helped us to escape

00:45:15.460 challenge in the past, what we really want is we really want to be good people.

00:45:20.060 We really want to be parents to our kids.

00:45:21.660 we really want to have a job where we have autonomy in our life. We really want to have

00:45:27.160 our own place to live. But when you have a system that is feeding people the poison that keeps them

00:45:33.020 suspended in their sickness, because we have a gigantic industry that we've called the help

00:45:38.460 industry that is really dependent on these people being sick, change isn't going to shift. So when

00:45:46.420 somebody is out screwing up and doing crazy stuff, it's our responsibility to hold them

00:45:51.580 accountable, whether it's jail, whether it's treatment, et cetera, et cetera.

00:45:55.880 I want to ask you about that stat because that's extraordinary. Out of 51, one, then he found his

00:46:03.100 way back. Tell me what the formula is for the 50. What are you doing? What on a daily basis are those

00:46:08.880 50 doing to keep themselves off drugs and keeping themselves on the right path?

00:46:13.780 well they've realized that um the things that they were doing in their life were not helping

00:46:19.740 them access the outcomes that they sought uh the formula is assess deficit address deficit

00:46:26.400 uh teach accountability have people recognize that they are the author to their own story

00:46:32.040 and then once they have stabilized the internal foundation because our solutions are not external

00:46:40.560 The problems that we're trying to escape from exist within ourself.

00:46:44.800 So I've developed process and curriculum that I teach inside a prison.

00:46:49.380 And we rigorously go through this process for a period of time before I introduce them

00:46:56.320 to real opportunities.

00:46:57.820 So I bring a host of network relationships from around the state into the prison prior

00:47:03.860 to them releasing right around graduation.

00:47:05.860 And what I do is I introduce the guys that I teach into relationships and opportunities so that they can sustain the goals that they have set for themselves.

00:47:16.940 And so it's been successful.

00:47:19.600 Guys don't want to let go of the positive things that they've developed.

00:47:22.980 And they actually respect the guy that's looking back at them in the mirror.

00:47:26.160 So a huge part of it is collaborating.

00:47:27.940 When you're working the steps, are they also like you incorporate the 12 steps into this?

00:47:33.760 I'm just curious because I know that that. No, but I mean, I am an, I am a 12 step abstinence

00:47:39.200 based person. So of course I am also a Bible believing person. My program is people ask me

00:47:45.760 all the time. Is it faith based? I said, no, but it's based in faith. And so are the 12 steps.

00:47:50.720 So what I've provided is an opportunity for people to look at themselves because not everybody wants

00:47:56.480 to go to 12 step. Not everybody identifies as an addict. What I identify is change. I am a change

00:48:02.480 program. The program that I teach is a change program. I also am a lover of Albert Ellis,

00:48:07.880 who is the creator of rational and motive behavior therapy. So this has a lot of radical

00:48:13.960 self-acceptance. You know, we've decided that, oh, my life is supposed to look perfect. There's

00:48:18.940 absolutely no human being on the face of the planet that's perfect. Our escape really exists

00:48:26.160 within accountability, personal accountability and self-acceptance. Like I am okay no matter

00:48:31.360 what it is that I've done. And there's actually power in my past and the things that I've done

00:48:37.260 that I can't ever get away from, that I continue to try to hide from, but wherever I go, there I

00:48:41.340 am. So is 12 step a part of it? A hundred percent because 12 step is a part of me, but the process

00:48:47.420 itself really has to do with personal accountability. Jenny, I want to, I want to jump in

00:48:52.980 because we want to take a look at some of your success stories. What you're describing is the

00:48:57.660 Gabriel plan this is the system that you are changing and I want to call for um 5b because

00:49:04.680 we can hear from some of your students themselves let's roll back nobody put us in prison not the

00:49:11.880 police not the judge not the prosecutors you know and and damn sure not the victims so amen until

00:49:20.480 you start taking accountability on the things you you're doing wrong you know there won't be no

00:49:28.600 change you can't deal with problems until you name them and you know how to deal with them

00:49:35.620 and all the other programs that I've taken I I never really no one really told me hey this is

00:49:42.740 this is how you should deal with this in this situation or whatever and certain scenarios and

00:49:47.560 things people are kind of private about, you know, they don't want to necessarily talk about it

00:49:51.720 anymore. You know, it's, they kind of feel like I'm at the end of my sentence. I'm ready to just

00:49:56.420 be done with that. Let's just move forward. But there's a level of healing that I was able to get,

00:50:01.500 I believe, from being an out that, that helped me become a better person and helped me see how

00:50:08.860 others may view me and the way that I do things and how it affects others. I've seen even within

00:50:15.260 myself. But for these other individuals, I have seen guys just, you know, take more approach at

00:50:22.180 like going after the better things in life and then not material things, just the peace of mind,

00:50:27.320 right? Relationships be, you know, strengthened and making amends. I just had a guy talk to me

00:50:32.800 about literally making amends with his mom after so many years because of, you know, whatever bad

00:50:39.940 blood was there. The cohort I was actually in and the individuals that you may not see that don't

00:50:47.400 participate no longer in out in a sense, but I'm going to tell you this, it carries on the way

00:50:52.180 they conduct themselves, the way they help other individuals and things of that nature, let alone

00:50:56.220 the way they treat, how they treat themselves. I feel like a lot of individuals that not all are

00:51:01.420 in it, but that stick with it, their self-worth has definitely increased. What kind of change do

00:51:08.240 you think this could mean for their release? The people who come from the program are not

00:51:15.560 looking at their counselors and saying, what are you going to do for me? They're not looking at

00:51:20.200 DOC and saying, well, how much money are you going to give me to live here? They're looking at

00:51:23.900 themselves and saying, what can I do to improve my situation? What can I do to provide for my

00:51:28.600 family? What can I do to provide better environments for my children, my wife, my brothers

00:51:34.960 and sisters, my parents. It's amazing to me over the years, how many times a guy comes to prison

00:51:40.660 and you know, he's got sick parents and he, all he wants to do is take care of them, but he's stuck

00:51:45.480 in prison. And then he gets out and he has that old mentality of, well, what's DOC going to do

00:51:51.640 for me? Seeing that these guys are taking ownership in their own futures and really

00:51:58.120 recognizing that they're in control of that and not relying so heavily on DOC to do it for me,

00:52:05.400 I think that's going to make all the difference in the world.

00:52:09.260 Jenny, I hate the fact that we have to wrap up with you, but we do. I just want to say that,

00:52:15.260 so those people that you interviewed were part of your OUT program, which stands for

00:52:19.720 Overhaul Unrelenting Transfiguration, which is incorporated into your Gabriel plan. And I have

00:52:26.700 to just tell you something i i have to tell you this listening to those um men talk about how they

00:52:33.560 transform jenny this would work for people who aren't addicted to anything what the the transformation

00:52:41.920 within in them is something that i think a lot of people without addiction problem problems or

00:52:48.200 issues i don't want to without addiction issues could also just become the best version of

00:52:54.120 themselves. That's frigging amazing. And I love you for that. And I applaud you for that. I would

00:53:02.940 hope that people don't have to be incarcerated to benefit from your plan, from your systems change,

00:53:09.060 from your wisdom, from your experience. If people do want to work with you or learn more

00:53:14.600 about the program, is there a way that they can do that, Ginny? Yeah. Well, they can email me

00:53:19.900 directly at Ginny at o-ut.org. Uh, you can visit the website, o-ut.org. Uh, you can find me on

00:53:29.100 social media at V Ginny Burton. Um, and that's with Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram. Uh, and

00:53:37.860 I just want to say, and I think it's really important to mention this, um, is that the

00:53:42.520 population that you just witnessed, they predominantly become our homeless, addicted

00:53:47.940 population. The people that have been released are people who have been cycling in and out of

00:53:54.060 incarceration for many years. We're breaking cycles because we are focusing on intention

00:54:01.280 and the outcomes that we seek. Ginny, thank you. We are extremely grateful for your efforts and

00:54:07.580 all that, we'll call it horribleness, and I put that in quotations, that you grew up around led

00:54:14.260 you to do God's work, and I thank you for all that you do. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jenny.

00:54:19.920 Thank you so much. All right, coming up in just a moment,

00:54:24.760 Jonna and I go off the record. Stick around.

00:54:28.340 welcome back to positively legal it's time for mark and i to go off the record but before we

00:54:49.100 get to that there's something i've been dying to discuss with you mark and it's from my favorite

00:54:56.140 movie oh we all know what that is at this point my cousin vinnie oh yeah thank you all right so

00:55:02.120 let's watch let's watch a clip one of the many and hopefully we'll show more during the season

00:55:07.920 but let's take a look at this one clip and we'll analyze just how real how likely this is to occur

00:55:13.840 go ahead mrs riley when you saw the defendants were you wearing your glasses yes i was

00:55:20.640 Over here, dear

00:55:22.900 How many different levels of thickness have you gone through?

00:55:27.500 Oh, I don't know

00:55:28.640 Over 60 years

00:55:31.220 Maybe 10 times

00:55:33.220 Amy, you ready for a thicker set?

00:55:35.900 Oh, no, no

00:55:36.980 I think the hilt kick

00:55:38.620 Maybe we should make sure

00:55:40.380 Let's check it out

00:55:41.820 Now

00:55:47.660 How far were the defendants from you

00:55:50.560 when you saw them entering the sack of suds?

00:55:53.620 About a hundred feet.

00:55:55.640 A hundred feet.

00:55:56.820 Would you hold this, please?

00:55:58.380 Thank you.

00:56:02.640 Sorry.

00:56:03.500 Excuse me.

00:56:04.180 Excuse me.

00:56:05.120 Sorry.

00:56:06.000 Sorry.

00:56:07.060 Still confident.

00:56:09.600 Okay.

00:56:10.740 This is 50 feet.

00:56:13.220 That's half the distance.

00:56:15.620 How many fingers am I holding up? 0.96

00:56:17.400 Let the record show that Counselor's holding up two fingers. 0.99

00:56:24.080 Yana, please, huh? 1.00

00:56:26.340 Yana.

00:56:28.140 Sorry. 0.98

00:56:29.780 What the hell's a you? 0.97

00:56:30.860 Yana, Mrs. Riley. 0.96

00:56:32.200 And only Mrs. Riley.

00:56:36.260 How many fingers am I holding up now?

00:56:41.280 Risky.

00:56:45.120 Both.

00:56:45.800 what do you think now dear

00:56:53.540 thinking of getting thicker glasses

00:56:58.560 jonna a great scene i loved it when i watched the movie but how realistic is that would you

00:57:06.560 ever do anything like that in court please tell me now that that is that is worse than asking

00:57:13.600 a witness a question you don't know the answer to it it kind of if you think about it in real life

00:57:18.600 it's sort of like the uh if the glove don't fit you must acquit like that whole demonstration

00:57:23.640 that was calculated at least no that was bad made more sense right bad for the prosecution for sure

00:57:30.140 but oh john no no it would never happen it's just it's silly and and young lawyers who see that

00:57:38.800 and want to do stuff like that please don't okay yeah just don't it doesn't it's good for movies

00:57:45.960 it's not good in the real world all right we gonna we're gonna rant a little bit we're gonna

00:57:50.680 rant a little bit yeah who's going first uh i guess i am let's do it you're actually you're

00:57:58.100 you're in my rant you're in my rant today mark really not not not in a bad way okay so in case

00:58:05.340 you haven't heard crime con 2026 is taking place in vegas next week and the whole group of nk true

00:58:13.680 crime contribs is going to be there i'm really looking forward to it because well vegas baby

00:58:20.820 i'm talking about getting very very rich vegas baby my games are craps roulette and poker texas

00:58:29.000 holden to be exact win or lose they're fun to play and can keep you busy for a while 1.00

00:58:34.260 if the free margaritas don't make you stupid. 0.99

00:58:37.220 But the most fun I have in Vegas is at the slots. 1.00

00:58:42.800 The high-roll and high-risk progressive slot machines

00:58:46.700 where you can burn through your highest-paid paralegal salary

00:58:50.320 in a matter of minutes.

00:58:52.720 Or you can spin those wheels to win a ton.

00:58:58.340 Or you can spin those wheels and win tens of millions of dollars

00:59:03.500 with one lucky pull. Have you ever wondered how much of a windfall it would take to change your

00:59:10.320 life? One million dollars. My number? A hundred million bucks. After taxes, of course. That's

00:59:21.720 what I consider F.U. money. And if I won F.U. money on this trip to Vegas, here are a few things I

00:59:29.620 would and would not do. First, I would call my office and give everyone a raise so big they would

00:59:36.760 wonder whether I met and married Elon Musk in the Elvis Chapel. Next, I'd round up all my MK

00:59:44.060 true crime contributors and treat them to a sky's the limit spending spree at the shops at Caesar's

00:59:50.460 Palace. Okay, so yeah, I anticipate Mark Garagos turning me down. He'd be all like, I was just there

00:59:57.560 with the Kardashians. You go ahead. I'll catch up. After the rest of a shop till we drop, I treat my

01:00:05.000 co-host Mark Eiglarsh to a champagne and Wagyu steak experience so luxuriously expensive, the

01:00:13.040 prime minister of Japan would feel compelled to friend me on Facebook. But the most important

01:00:19.380 thing I would do is not tell a single soul that I want. Not because I don't want to be bothered by

01:00:26.740 my sixth cousin went to remove hitting me up for a loan, but because I would want to bless as many

01:00:32.180 people as I could without them ever needing to ask. When I was in law school working three jobs

01:00:39.900 to pay my rent, I got so behind on parking tickets that I had to ask my grandma to help me out

01:00:45.580 before my car got towed for like the 10th tie. Dude, where's my car? She mailed me a letter and

01:00:53.540 a little bit of dough. Not enough to fully solve the problem, but enough to buy me one good meal

01:00:58.800 before I went to debtor's prison. The details of the note don't matter. It's the effect that I'll

01:01:05.700 never forget. I swore that day that when I had enough money to be a blessing to others, I would

01:01:12.220 in fact be that blessing to whomever was in need before they ever had to ask. I've kept that promise

01:01:20.820 to myself numerous times since then, and it feels pretty damn good. So when I win that F.U. money in

01:01:28.100 Vegas next week, there's going to be a whole lot of people who will have my slightly frugal, 1.00

01:01:34.100 overly judgy grandma to thank for it. And then there will be Mark Eiglarsh, who just might have

01:01:41.240 the best beer-fed butt-massaged cow he ever ate.

01:01:51.180 Butt-massaged cow.

01:01:53.340 Don't you know that's how they make Wagyu? 1.00

01:01:55.900 Fabulous.

01:01:56.580 All right, that was awesome.

01:01:57.680 Now I'm going to rant, and I've got to get serious for a second.

01:02:00.500 All right.

01:02:01.880 Becky Hill.

01:02:04.820 I'm going to say it again.

01:02:06.620 Becky Hill.

01:02:07.960 the mere mention of her name raises my blood pressure. She was the clerk in Colleton,

01:02:17.940 South Carolina, and she's the one who the highest court in the land in South Carolina found

01:02:23.900 tampered with Alex Murdoch's jury. And just so we're clear, Alex Murdoch was convicted

01:02:30.980 of killing both his wife and his son, shot them both. And I agree with the higher court's ruling

01:02:37.540 that there was plenty of evidence to prove that he was guilty. 0.99

01:02:41.600 But what Becky Hill did was revolting. 1.00

01:02:47.560 She tampered with that jury. 1.00

01:02:50.020 She said things to them like, don't be fooled by Alex,

01:02:53.700 and this decision shouldn't take too long.

01:02:56.640 She did it because she was promoting a book,

01:02:59.520 and if he was found guilty, the sales would go up.

01:03:02.900 A book, by the way, that she plagiarized portions of.

01:03:07.540 So I was very eager to find out when the news hit this past week that the convictions were overturned, that they were now going to go to trial again, great financial and emotional and physical tax on everyone.

01:03:20.900 I was curious to see what did all of her crimes yield?

01:03:26.300 I mean, perjury, obstruction, misconduct. 0.50

01:03:30.460 Surely they threw the book at her.

01:03:31.760 three years. Probation. I immediately thought the wrong P word. See, what she did didn't just

01:03:45.600 screw with Alex Murdoch and all the people of South Carolina and all those like myself 0.98

01:03:50.020 who followed the trial and wanted due process, but she undermined the Constitution and what 0.99

01:03:56.640 it guarantees we would like to believe that people are afforded fair trials what she did

01:04:03.080 she knowingly did she intentionally did she willfully did it and i think she got off way too

01:04:11.720 light what do you guys think mark yes fabulous couldn't agree with you more i'm outraged i'm

01:04:20.380 I'm still upset by it.

01:04:22.060 I know.

01:04:22.700 Very slap on the wrist.

01:04:24.660 Absolute slap on the wrist.

01:04:26.480 But for now, we have to bid everyone an adieu.

01:04:31.000 I want to give a very loud thank you to Ginny Burton, our guest, and to my co-host, Mark Eiglars.

01:04:37.840 And thank you for joining us.

01:04:39.080 Remember, new episodes of Positively Legal drop every Wednesday.

01:04:43.760 I hope you choose to have a wonderful week.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 23, 2026

Luigi Mangione's Suppressed Evidence, Mackenzie Shirilla’s ＂Crash＂ Doc - ＂Positively Legal＂ with Mark Eiglarsh and Jonna Spilbor

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript