The Megyn Kelly Show - MAGA Demands More Epstein Transparency, and Epstein's Potential Intel Ties, with Ben Shapiro and Michael Shellenberger

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00:00:32.640 Someone is trying to frame us.

00:00:35.600 Until our names are cleared.

00:00:38.140 We're fugitives from interval.

00:00:39.940 Like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

00:00:43.300 Espionage?

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00:00:47.000 Better.

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00:00:59.880 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:03.000 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east.

00:01:12.760 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:01:17.140 There is so much going on.

00:01:18.900 I feel like we start every week that way, but it's true.

00:01:21.140 I was down in Florida this weekend speaking to the future of the conservative movement at the Turning Point USA Student Action Summit.

00:01:29.500 We'll play you a clip from that later.

00:01:30.960 But one of the big topics of the weekend, not just from my conversation with Charlie Kirk,

00:01:35.880 but from the young people in that audience and virtually every presenter, was Jeffrey Epstein.

00:01:41.660 It was one week ago today we were talking about that leaked DOJ-FBI memo that was dropped in an Axios report.

00:01:50.900 And here we are a week later.

00:01:53.240 This story is far from over.

00:01:54.980 I think the DOJ hoped they would put this thing to bed with that memo.

00:01:57.700 Clearly it hasn't happened.

00:01:59.000 And conservatives are up in arms over this thing.

00:02:02.620 Not all, but most, I'd say.

00:02:04.320 And certainly all the young people at that Turning Point event.

00:02:07.900 And now the liberals have kind of finally looked over at the other side of the aisle and said,

00:02:13.700 maybe we're into Epstein too.

00:02:15.860 You know, we're into Epstein.

00:02:17.360 After for years just dismissing it as a conspiracy theory,

00:02:20.080 now that they think it can hurt Trump, suddenly they're expressing interest.

00:02:23.420 It's such bullshit.

00:02:24.480 It's like, look, this has never been my main story.

00:02:28.440 As you know, we've covered it over the years as news has been made.

00:02:31.700 But like, let's not be so nakedly political over the molestation of little girls.

00:02:37.380 Fuck these Johnny come lately's who just want to use it as a battering ram over Trump politically.

00:02:42.220 It's such bullshit.

00:02:44.020 All right, we'll get into that.

00:02:45.620 Plus some wild new details about former President Biden's use of the auto pen.

00:02:50.560 He doesn't, he wasn't there.

00:02:52.460 I'm sorry.

00:02:53.020 It was like an oral authorization, maybe, that his staff then put into writing that went through

00:03:00.080 like a game of telephone before it actually got entered into the auto pen.

00:03:04.240 Seems like even some of his staffers were feeling a little sketchy about whether in fact he had

00:03:09.160 authorized it and we're asking for more proof.

00:03:11.740 We've got two great guests for all of this today.

00:03:14.520 Joining me later, sub-stack journalist Michael Schellenberger.

00:03:17.240 But we begin with my friend Ben Shapiro, who's hosted the Ben Shapiro show on the Daily Wire

00:03:21.680 and author of the forthcoming book, Lions and Scavengers, out in September.

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00:04:31.380 Ben, you're exactly who I want to discuss this with, because there's so many angles on Epstein.

00:04:37.360 Let's just talk about what happened in terms of the facts within the administration over

00:04:42.280 the past 72 hours, and then we'll get to whether he was an agent for us, for Israel, for somebody

00:04:48.840 else.

00:04:49.260 Not at all.

00:04:49.940 We don't know.

00:04:51.160 Okay.

00:04:52.100 As we went to, I don't know, off air on Friday, we found out that it was either she goes or I

00:05:03.020 go situation between Bongino, deputy director of the FBI, and Pam Bondi.

00:05:07.640 And I confirmed that with my own reporting, that they had had a massive blow up on Monday,

00:05:14.020 a week ago today, in the wake of that memo, that it had resulted in shouting, that it culminated

00:05:20.260 in a second meeting at the White House on Wednesday.

00:05:22.920 And Susie Wiles, who's the chief of staff for Trump, but a Florida native, and I think

00:05:29.140 reportedly close with Pam Bondi, seemed to be trying to put it to bed and see if, you

00:05:34.860 know, Dan could calm down and Pam could calm down, both of whom had been screaming at each

00:05:39.100 other.

00:05:39.880 And it didn't go very well.

00:05:41.480 And the next thing we hear is Bongino saying, I'm leaving unless she leaves or does something

00:05:49.240 more to come clean or be more transparent about the whole Epstein thing.

00:05:53.800 That was on Friday.

00:05:55.060 And then over the weekend, I will say my own sources said there'd been a softening because

00:06:01.220 the president got involved in some way.

00:06:03.320 And, um, as of today at noon, Monday, Bongino has not resigned, but we don't know.

00:06:09.080 We don't know exactly where it stands.

00:06:12.300 Um, she's clearly fighting back to she's dropped, obviously, I mean, this is my supposition, some

00:06:18.160 hit pieces on him in various places, including Axios saying he's just having a hissy fit because

00:06:23.520 he was behind the minute before midnight that's missing in the Epstein tapes from that cell block,

00:06:31.640 which don't show his cell, but show an area near his cell and that he was caught embarrassed

00:06:37.560 because he didn't highlight that minute before midnight that was missing, but it soon came out.

00:06:43.140 And now he's scrambling to sort of look like he's been tougher on this issue than he actually has

00:06:49.400 been.

00:06:50.020 And Todd Blanche, who's her deputy at DOJ and president Trump's former personal lawyer has

00:06:55.600 come out with a statement on X saying there is no daylight between the FBI and DOJ at all on that

00:07:00.900 memo that came out last Sunday.

00:07:02.080 I will tell you, my own reporting suggests that's not true, um, but Blanche trying to

00:07:08.100 put on a united front between DOJ and FBI.

00:07:10.480 That's where it stands today.

00:07:12.000 What do you make of that piece of the story?

00:07:14.400 So first of all, I'm hearing many of the same things that you're hearing, Megan.

00:07:17.120 I'm talking, I'm sure, to many of the same people that you're talking to here.

00:07:20.040 And my take on the story is pretty simple.

00:07:22.640 I think that Pam Bondi botched this eight ways from Sunday.

00:07:25.560 I have not seen a bigger botchery of a rollout of a story maybe ever.

00:07:29.320 And that is really what you're looking at here.

00:07:31.860 Um, I think that what you're looking at is Pam Bondi went on Fox news at the very best

00:07:36.240 was unclear when she said the Epstein list is on my desk.

00:07:38.920 She didn't actually say the Epstein list is on my desk.

00:07:40.680 There's a reference to the Epstein list by the questioner.

00:07:42.760 And then she returned and said, it's on my desk.

00:07:44.700 The, it, she claims was like all the papers for Epstein.

00:07:47.560 Okay, fine.

00:07:48.000 But you were very, very not clear about that at best.

00:07:50.380 And then let me just, let me interject quickly.

00:07:52.580 The other piece of that that's problematic, her excuse is the Epstein file would fill a

00:07:58.880 conference room, would fill a building.

00:08:01.600 There's no way she had the Epstein file.

00:08:03.460 Like it's a discreet file on her desk, which makes, yeah.

00:08:06.120 I mean, I don't mean to offend Pam Bondi because I'm ripping the crap out of her right

00:08:09.700 now, but it is possible.

00:08:11.100 You and I are factual.

00:08:12.180 Let's say factual.

00:08:12.760 It's possible to, it's possible to say on my desk as, as sort of a euphemism or meaning

00:08:17.240 like it's in front of me, but you know, the, the, the one that was much more damning to

00:08:20.360 me was the binder release, right?

00:08:21.900 When she had a bunch of influencers in the white house, she hands them a binder filled

00:08:24.820 with old crap, all redacted.

00:08:27.100 And then they trot out and hold it up to the cameras like, Hey, look, this is our big prize.

00:08:31.540 And then it turns out that there's nothing new there.

00:08:33.900 And then she sends a letter to cash Patel at the FBI saying, why haven't you given me all

00:08:38.000 these documents that I was supposed to be given?

00:08:39.620 And there is no evidence that there are all these documents that cash Patel was hiding

00:08:43.840 somewhere in the basement that he had not given Pam Bondi.

00:08:46.920 And then all we get is this two page letter that basically is supposed to put everything

00:08:50.980 to bed.

00:08:51.720 And so I'm not blaming anybody who is upset with the fact that they were told by Pam

00:08:56.020 Bondi, at least by implication that there was an Epstein list, that there were tens of

00:08:58.660 thousands of hours of tapes, that there are a thousand victims, that there was more coming

00:09:02.180 and then nothing happens, right?

00:09:03.500 That, that, that seems to be on Pam Bondi.

00:09:05.020 And that's why I think Dan Bongino is extremely upset today because the contention he's

00:09:09.380 making from what I understand from my own sources is that it is not that Epstein is a foreign

00:09:14.160 agent or that, and that's being hidden or that Epstein was trafficking girls to third

00:09:18.440 parties who remain hidden by the government or anything like that, or that even there was

00:09:22.980 an Epstein list per se.

00:09:24.820 My understanding is that the actual outcome of the DOJ investigation is properly stated in

00:09:29.860 that memo.

00:09:30.320 What he's upset about is if you oversell the story and you create a deliverable for the FBI

00:09:35.220 and then the FBI doesn't deliver, then that falls on Kash Patel and Dan Bongino.

00:09:39.300 And so Pam Bondi basically did that.

00:09:41.140 She went out there and ran her mouth without the actual goods to back it up.

00:09:44.780 And then when it turns out that it's Geraldo Rivera safe, then of course it makes Dan look

00:09:49.540 bad.

00:09:49.820 It makes Kash look bad.

00:09:50.900 It makes the president look bad and all the rest.

00:09:52.960 That's my understanding of this dispute.

00:09:54.600 And if that's the nature of the dispute, then obviously I'm very much on Dan Bongino's side

00:09:58.120 and Kash Patel's side, because again, I think that Pam Bondi pretty clearly to the public

00:10:02.520 made a bunch of statements that were unrepresentative of the final DOJ FBI memo that was released.

00:10:10.840 Many people, including me, do not believe that they've released everything that's releasable

00:10:18.660 in Epstein.

00:10:20.060 I think this is another piece of the problem that we're left asking why.

00:10:24.740 Now, maybe, maybe as Mike Davis, who's a serious person, who's well-connected to the administration

00:10:31.060 was saying on X, on X yesterday, maybe it really is because what's left is grand jury

00:10:37.300 proceedings, which would be secret, not releasable witness testimony, victim testimonials, which

00:10:43.560 might reveal identities, which, you know, victims are not prepared to have revealed that

00:10:47.740 that's all possible.

00:10:48.460 But Pam Bondi hasn't answered any of those questions.

00:10:51.200 No, no one has.

00:10:52.380 No one's explained that Mike Davis, much as we love him.

00:10:54.320 It's not a spokesperson for the administration.

00:10:56.100 So we we're still left in a position where at least I don't believe them that everything

00:11:01.960 that can be released has been released.

00:11:05.240 So I do believe that that's the case.

00:11:07.620 They've released everything that can be released, but only because I trust Dan Bongino and Kash

00:11:11.360 Patel and the president on this.

00:11:13.240 Now, are those questions legit?

00:11:14.840 Absolutely.

00:11:15.460 And so I've been saying literally since the first day this memo broke that there is no way

00:11:19.240 that Pam Bondi should not be doing a press conference where she at least answers that

00:11:22.340 question at the very least.

00:11:23.720 I need to hear it from their mouth that this is that we're releasing everything that that

00:11:26.780 can be released.

00:11:28.240 However, you know, I'm very hesitant to make the claim that there is evidence that exists

00:11:33.480 that I have not seen because that's totally unfalsifiable.

00:11:36.120 Right.

00:11:36.200 I've only seen the same stuff that you've seen, Megan.

00:11:38.180 And I'm probably talking to many of the same sources that you're talking to people like

00:11:41.820 Dan and Kash and Pam and the president and the vice president, everybody else in the

00:11:45.700 administration.

00:11:46.000 They have seen material that I have not seen because, again, they're the ones who are reviewing

00:11:50.280 the material.

00:11:51.400 And so I am not prepared.

00:11:52.620 You put out a tweet earlier that I think is right.

00:11:54.540 Basically, there's two theories of this particular case.

00:11:56.680 One, Pam Bondi overpromised and underdelivered, which seems to be the most plausible.

00:12:00.460 Or two, there's an active cover up that the Trump administration is engaging in of a child

00:12:04.540 sex trafficking ring.

00:12:05.720 And I think that if people want to make that accusation, they should just come out and say

00:12:08.640 it.

00:12:08.780 And if that's the case, if they want to make that accusation that President Trump and everybody

00:12:12.420 who was elected to uncover this is actually now they flip 180 and now they're engaging

00:12:16.700 in a full scale cover up of a child rape ring, then people should just have the balls to say

00:12:20.400 it out loud and articulate it as opposed to sort of softly peddling the possibility that

00:12:25.460 it's like, just say it, just say it.

00:12:27.080 Because it seems to me when you articulate these two possibilities out loud, one of them

00:12:30.200 is significantly more plausible than the other.

00:12:31.920 Now, again, that does not relieve the responsibility on the administration to answer basic questions

00:12:36.500 of fact publicly.

00:12:37.920 And that's where I think the great screw up is.

00:12:39.640 But I think there are a lot of people who are trafficking in unevidenced theory.

00:12:44.880 And again, I can speculate all day long.

00:12:46.360 You can too.

00:12:47.060 And speculation is fun.

00:12:48.340 But we now have a bunch of people who I trust.

00:12:51.300 I trust Dan Bongino.

00:12:52.440 I trust Kash Patel.

00:12:53.560 And I do trust the president of the United States that he is not covering up a child rape

00:12:56.840 ring.

00:12:58.580 Can I say this?

00:12:59.780 My tweet was a little worded differently, which was either, you know, either Pam Bonney is

00:13:04.200 royally screwed up.

00:13:05.000 I mean, she does.

00:13:05.560 She has.

00:13:06.200 That's not in dispute.

00:13:07.440 She's royally screwed up.

00:13:08.280 Um, and the president is just forgiving her because she's a loyal soldier and, you know,

00:13:12.640 he likes her and he doesn't want to go through the messy confirmation process of getting somebody

00:13:16.700 else in there.

00:13:17.420 So that's possible.

00:13:18.520 That's definitely a possible number one.

00:13:19.880 And there's no, they're there in the files anyway, right?

00:13:22.820 Like the way she screwed up was over promising when she didn't have the goods and she genuinely

00:13:26.700 doesn't have the goods.

00:13:27.920 And so the big mistake was over promising and the president doesn't really care about that

00:13:32.120 mistake or there is something there and it's being covered up and the president blessed

00:13:39.020 it, right?

00:13:40.300 Like that's, but I didn't say, or there's a child sex ring that he's actively covering

00:13:45.520 up because the truth is, I think there's some middle ground between one and two, you're one

00:13:49.920 and two of there is something in there more could be disclosed.

00:13:56.160 And it's something short of there's a massive pedophile ring that they're covering up.

00:14:00.660 Like it would have some names.

00:14:02.860 Those men would have to defend themselves.

00:14:05.280 Maybe the administration doesn't think it's a fair position to put them in.

00:14:08.280 Maybe there are questions about the accusers.

00:14:10.040 Maybe there are like half-hearted allegations in there that, you know, normally a DOJ would

00:14:15.860 not put out, but feels like it kind of might have to, given all the promises that have been

00:14:20.680 made by Pam and prior to taking office cash and Dan rattling about this.

00:14:25.800 So I think there could be a middle ground and also look, this may be complete bullshit,

00:14:31.220 but I've heard it from a few different people.

00:14:32.940 So I just big asterisks on it, but some have speculated that the Biden DOJ may have left

00:14:38.520 the Epstein files in such a manner that it like leads directly with an arrow toward Donald

00:14:44.640 Trump, just as a middle finger toward Trump.

00:14:47.240 Not that he did anything whatsoever, just that they're bastards and they knew he was coming

00:14:51.240 in and they knew his people were interested in this story.

00:14:53.240 So something like that could be between your one and two, where it's less nefarious than

00:14:59.400 full child sex ring and our government officials have said, let's just move on.

00:15:03.960 We're not going to release this stuff just because you overpromised Pam Bondi.

00:15:07.920 And because we have a top two officials at the FBI who are big saber rattles rattlers

00:15:13.460 about this before they took office.

00:15:15.100 So I agree that there's a plausible idea somewhere in the in-between.

00:15:18.700 But the reason that we care about the Epstein case is because everybody thinks it was a

00:15:21.460 giant child sex ring.

00:15:23.000 I mean, that's the reason we care about that.

00:15:24.320 That's one for sure.

00:15:25.420 But two is transparency.

00:15:27.400 Well, and I agree on the transparency point.

00:15:29.280 I totally agree.

00:15:29.940 Right.

00:15:30.060 I mean, that's been the basis of this entire conversation.

00:15:32.460 But the real reason that people care about Epstein is because the story that was sold for

00:15:36.040 years in retail by pretty much everybody who had a passing even reference to the case was

00:15:41.520 that Jeffrey Epstein was running a child sex ring on behalf of third parties who were unnamed

00:15:46.680 and that we needed to have the list, the Epstein list of the third parties who were having sex with

00:15:50.780 little girls and then were being blackmailed by Jeffrey Epstein, which is how he made his money

00:15:54.560 or how he was serving a foreign intelligence service.

00:15:56.460 Right.

00:15:56.560 That is the theory.

00:15:57.180 And so we have to at least fully publicly articulate that that is the theory that most people were

00:16:01.420 operating under until this DOJ memo broke.

00:16:05.680 And that is why people are freaked out right now.

00:16:07.200 I mean, it's not just the transparency.

00:16:08.540 If it turns out, let's put it this way, Megan.

00:16:10.420 If it turns out that it's your middle of the road case and then those materials get released,

00:16:13.600 that it turns out that there is some scurrilous reference to a third party and it ends up

00:16:17.360 being unredacted.

00:16:18.520 Is anyone going to be satisfied?

00:16:19.900 I would I would say the answer is no, because the theory has been so wildly retailed at this

00:16:24.820 point and widely retailed at this point that anything short of a full justification of

00:16:29.700 the theory means that somebody is covering something up.

00:16:32.820 And this is where I start to get pretty yippy, because if the idea and this is why I go back

00:16:36.700 to my original reference, if the idea is that the full scale theory is the thing that

00:16:41.200 is being covered up by President Trump, then people who are making that sort of charge and

00:16:44.420 that includes by name Tucker Carlson at TPUSA, they should actually just say it.

00:16:48.460 If you want to say it, then say it.

00:16:50.400 I mean, Tucker says that that this that Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad agent who's blackmailing

00:16:54.880 people on behalf of Mossad.

00:16:57.160 We're going to get to that.

00:16:57.780 Let's just table Mossad agent for two minutes.

00:17:00.200 You and I are definitely coming back to that.

00:17:01.500 And we can talk about Tucker, too.

00:17:02.460 I mean, that's so that's so logically the point.

00:17:04.340 The point I'm making about Tucker is a very simple one.

00:17:06.740 If you're going to retail that claim and say that you are very certain of that claim,

00:17:10.380 then the claim is really not about Mossad.

00:17:12.360 It's about the United States government covering up for Mossad, which means the Trump administration

00:17:16.940 covering up a sex ring.

00:17:19.040 And if you are going to say the Trump administration and President Trump is covering up a sex ring,

00:17:22.120 you should just have the balls to say it publicly.

00:17:24.620 OK, it's true that if if you are a Mossad spy and that's the reason we're not releasing

00:17:30.840 more information, yes, then the theory would be that Trump blessed the cover up of that

00:17:35.540 for for his own reasons.

00:17:37.800 Middle East peace, world peace, a promise he made to somebody of who knows.

00:17:41.660 There is no good reason that you can cover up a child sex ring, period.

00:17:44.000 End of story would be evil by President Trump and be evil by Mossad, obviously.

00:17:47.900 Well, OK, I mean, look, I do want to table this because I want I very much want to get

00:17:51.520 to that piece of the discussion.

00:17:52.360 I just want to stay on part one before we get it, because logically it makes more sense

00:17:56.260 to me just just to stick with what actually is happening within the administration and

00:18:00.480 what's happened and what might be getting withheld.

00:18:04.420 Here is the whole case is so convoluted.

00:18:07.360 I mean, I spent way more hours than I want to admit going back and looking at his plea deal,

00:18:12.700 you know, when it first came out that he might be a pervert and the feds were involved and

00:18:18.040 he the Palm Beach district attorney was involved and the feds basically stepped in.

00:18:24.840 Alex Acosta was the U.S. attorney.

00:18:26.620 He later became Trump's labor secretary.

00:18:28.280 And he is the one who stepped in and basically gave Jeffrey Epstein what turned out to be

00:18:34.060 a sweetheart deal, like two counts of soliciting prostitution, which is not what he did.

00:18:38.020 He was dealing with 14 year old girls there.

00:18:40.060 You cannot be a prostitute at age 14.

00:18:41.920 That is child rape.

00:18:43.040 That's what that is.

00:18:44.460 So he got a slap on the wrist that gave him like 13 months of the equivalent of house arrest.

00:18:49.220 He had to go sit in like the local jail for, you know, 10 hours a day.

00:18:53.220 And then he was back in his office with an ankle monitor.

00:18:55.460 I mean, it was just a complete slap on the wrist and it also got Epstein off the hook

00:19:00.140 for any crimes he'd committed prior to 2008 toward any young girls for these, this slap

00:19:04.720 on the wrist and prevented the government from coming back and prosecuting him for them and

00:19:09.480 prevented a bunch of victims for suing him for certain things and from, from obtaining

00:19:13.940 damages beyond a certain amount, all without getting the blessing of the victims.

00:19:17.060 A court leader overturned that saying, this is so damned illegal.

00:19:21.340 This whole deal, you cannot do this without alerting the victims.

00:19:24.840 But anyway, there was, and I want to make sure I say it correctly.

00:19:29.160 Okay.

00:19:29.760 There was an opinion by a court in this case that was deciding the dispute between a bunch

00:19:36.980 of victims who came forward to say, this wasn't well handled.

00:19:39.400 This is bullshit.

00:19:40.300 And the government and the government in that case admitted a bunch of things to try to

00:19:45.560 get rid of the case, which it did.

00:19:47.300 So, including one between or about 1999 and 2007, Jeffrey Epstein sexually abused more

00:19:54.060 than 30 minor girls at his mansion in Palm Beach, Florida and elsewhere to Epstein and

00:20:01.720 his co-conspirators knowingly traveled in interstate and international commerce to sexually abuse

00:20:05.480 them.

00:20:05.740 And they committed violations of Florida law and federal law three.

00:20:09.760 In addition to personally abusing his victims, Epstein also directed other persons to sexually

00:20:14.160 abuse the girls.

00:20:15.100 For example, Nadia Markinova sexually abused Jane Doe, number one and other victims at the

00:20:20.540 direction of Epstein.

00:20:21.420 And then here's one of the other ones.

00:20:23.760 The FBI established the government admits this.

00:20:27.020 The FBI established that Epstein used paid employees to repeatedly find and bring minor girls

00:20:33.120 to him, Epstein worked in concert with others to obtain minor girls, not only for his own

00:20:39.440 sexual gratification, but also for the sexual gratification of others.

00:20:43.680 So I don't know exactly what that means, Ben, but I know that's our government admitting in

00:20:48.420 court that Jeffrey Epstein used, worked in concert with others to obtain minor girls, not only

00:20:55.180 for himself, but also for the sexual gratification of others.

00:20:58.200 Who, who are the others?

00:21:01.540 Who, who specifically?

00:21:02.700 Well, I mean, that hasn't been answered.

00:21:04.180 We've heard names.

00:21:04.840 One obvious answer is Ghislaine Maxwell, right?

00:21:07.040 Who's in prison right now for having engaged in the sexual abuse of children.

00:21:10.440 Right.

00:21:10.840 And, and one of the other people that you just mentioned is one of the others, right?

00:21:14.000 Nadia, whatever her name is.

00:21:15.440 So, you know, that, that is sort of the, the big open question that everyone was asking was,

00:21:19.400 okay, is that, who's that?

00:21:20.260 Like Stephen Hawking, right?

00:21:21.440 Cause he was one of the names who was mentioned, or Alan Dershowitz was one of the names who was

00:21:24.020 mentioned, or Hood Barack or Lex Wexner, right?

00:21:26.520 Like all these were, and, and again, here's my thing.

00:21:28.680 I was open to every single one of these theories until the DOJ and FBI put out a memo saying,

00:21:34.060 we have looked at all the evidence and here's what we have come to, right?

00:21:37.140 You were persuaded by that memo without, without more.

00:21:39.320 I mean, like I wasn't persuaded.

00:21:40.160 I know I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not persuaded by a memo.

00:21:43.380 What I'm persuaded by is the fact that I have not seen evidence that they have seen.

00:21:46.660 And so I'm not prepared to call Dan Bongino, Cash Patel, President Trump, J.D. Vance and

00:21:50.060 Pam Bondi all liars.

00:21:51.580 Their two page memo says no credible evidence, no credible evidence.

00:21:55.800 Well, somebody has made a judgment call there and there's all, you could drive a truck through

00:21:58.780 that exception.

00:22:00.060 Well, I mean, if the idea is that they're supposed to release non-credible evidence, then I'd

00:22:03.980 love to see them, you know, hand it over to a special investigator to a court.

00:22:07.760 Okay, fine.

00:22:08.160 So then, then they should.

00:22:09.100 But back to, back to my scenario of possible scenario number two.

00:22:11.340 I mean, listen, it's fine with me and do a, do a special investigator.

00:22:13.340 I don't care.

00:22:13.880 I mean, I think that'd be good.

00:22:15.180 Yes.

00:22:15.380 I mean, that's fine.

00:22:16.040 I think that would be good.

00:22:16.820 It's fine, but, but all of that is fine.

00:22:18.720 But the, the jump from there to the most extreme version of the theory, I don't find, like

00:22:24.120 if you're going to cite the theory, it's pure speculation, but if you don't want to,

00:22:28.360 I've given you that.

00:22:28.900 Like I like to operate in the world of evidence.

00:22:30.180 But let's spend more time in my scenario, which is like 1A, you know, between one and

00:22:34.020 two, you know, of like, they're not covering up a sex ring, but there's enough in there

00:22:37.880 that they find troubling that sees, let's say, major Trump donors, um, that they don't

00:22:43.160 want to embarrass and that have been accused in some way, shape or form.

00:22:46.280 I mean, even Alan Dershowitz pointed out to me on episode 10 of this show that many

00:22:51.400 others had been accused and he listed some of them.

00:22:53.340 He mentioned Ehud Barak.

00:22:54.560 He mentioned Bill Richardson.

00:22:56.460 Um, he mentioned a couple of others saying not everybody, right?

00:23:00.640 Everybody, right?

00:23:01.700 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:23:02.780 He said, not everybody who's been accused has come forward.

00:23:05.140 Like I have to say, absolutely not.

00:23:07.900 This is bullshit.

00:23:08.980 Virginia Dufresne is lying and I'll show you all my records to prove that it's a lie.

00:23:13.780 Now, and Alan said on this show, and without specifying which of those names he was referring

00:23:18.000 to, some of those men likely have something to hide and that's why they haven't been so

00:23:22.720 forthcoming.

00:23:23.620 So those two, all right.

00:23:25.440 So just take those two things, Alan saying that, and he, he was Epstein's lawyer.

00:23:29.960 Um, and then this, the government admitting that he, he worked to obtain minor girls for

00:23:35.560 the sexual gratification of others.

00:23:36.860 And we don't know who those others are because the government hasn't told us.

00:23:39.900 So those are questions that we'd like answered.

00:23:41.820 You know, if I got Pam Bondi on this show or at a presser, which I would travel to, to

00:23:45.280 ask her questions, I want that answered.

00:23:47.260 Her memo doesn't do it for me.

00:23:48.900 I agree.

00:23:49.320 You know, not non-credible evidence is not good enough.

00:23:52.680 Not good enough by far.

00:23:54.620 Well, I mean, again, I think that in the world of the DOJ and the FBI for what they are,

00:23:58.140 law enforcement agencies, it may not be good enough for public consumption, but that's

00:24:01.960 sort of what we've been saying from the outset, right?

00:24:03.880 Is that more transparency with regard to the public is necessary.

00:24:06.540 That's not quite the same thing as do the DOJ and the FBI have the legal grounds to prosecute

00:24:11.600 or release information that you want prosecuted or released, right?

00:24:15.000 That's kind of a different question.

00:24:16.000 Yeah.

00:24:16.320 I don't, I don't know that they do have the grounds to prosecute.

00:24:18.900 I don't either, but I mean, I would suggest that they probably do not given that they're

00:24:22.500 not doing the prosecution.

00:24:23.420 That's a different question from informational release or answering questions on a straight

00:24:27.260 up basis.

00:24:27.660 Again, that's the reason why Dan is pissed is because he's saying release the information

00:24:31.680 that you can release or at least answer the questions that you can answer.

00:24:35.160 Right.

00:24:35.660 I think that's true because I do believe Dan is convinced there is no case to be brought

00:24:40.500 and there's not some huge scandal behind the scenes.

00:24:43.300 And I think, yes, one of his frustrations is why doesn't Pam just as the spokesperson,

00:24:48.340 she's his boss effectively, go in front of the microphones and just answer all the questions

00:24:53.100 so that you and I and Tucker and everybody else can be as convinced as he apparently now

00:24:58.260 is that there's no there there.

00:25:00.460 I mean, the problem for the administration is, yes, those two top officials at FBI and

00:25:05.300 many in the president's orbit.

00:25:07.320 You know, I, this is another thing I spent the weekend looking at not so much Trump, but

00:25:11.320 J.D. Vance, Don Jr., Alina Haba, many of the president's surrogates have been stirring

00:25:16.760 the Epstein pot now for years, for years.

00:25:20.580 And so, you know, we are owed more than a two page memo being like, there's no there

00:25:26.280 there now, move on.

00:25:28.120 I mean, I, again, I totally agree with you on this and I still think that there's a gap

00:25:31.580 between that, which I agree with.

00:25:33.660 And the, the most extreme form of the theory is true.

00:25:36.060 And now it's a giant Trump administration coverup, but I won't actually name the members

00:25:38.780 of the Trump administration because I'm a coward.

00:25:40.300 Um, okay.

00:25:44.400 Now let's talk about whether, oh wait, no, I wanted to play this Julie Brown soundbite

00:25:49.280 first, sorry, before we move on from like what's being withheld, what what's potentially

00:25:53.100 out there that they're not telling us, which led to the big dispute between Bondi and Bongino

00:25:57.220 and all that.

00:25:58.080 Julie K.

00:25:58.520 Brown is probably the, the reporter who's done most on Epstein.

00:26:03.360 She's annoying because she hates conservatives in my viewpoint.

00:26:07.780 And I really can't stand people who report on big, important stories like this and make

00:26:12.960 and draw those lines.

00:26:14.180 It's just bullshit.

00:26:15.320 You know, when you're talking about the protection of minors, like I asked her to come on the

00:26:19.260 show in 2020, I asked her for help trying to figure out what's happening with Epstein.

00:26:23.380 Nope.

00:26:23.920 Wouldn't do it.

00:26:24.760 I'd love to put her on now.

00:26:25.900 She won't do it.

00:26:26.380 She goes on the lefty podcasts.

00:26:28.280 Um, I think she was on with Jim Acosta.

00:26:31.100 She went on with Dan LeBetard, right?

00:26:33.880 But she's not going to do a conservative podcast because I guess in her mind,

00:26:37.980 we, you only give a shit about little kids if you're a liberal, even though her side

00:26:41.660 of the aisle has taken huge dumps on this story since the day it was broken, that no

00:26:46.720 one had time for Julie K.

00:26:47.940 Brown and her reporting other than people on the right, as you know, Ben, but having said

00:26:52.700 all that, she's, she's annoying, but I think she's honest.

00:26:55.180 Um, and she did go on this LeBetard show on Saturday and spoke to what's likely still

00:27:04.040 out there that could be releasable on Epstein.

00:27:07.240 Here's part of it in SOT 6.

00:27:08.480 Is it six or seven?

00:27:10.180 I'll let my, I'll let Debbie figure that out.

00:27:12.200 Seven.

00:27:14.120 Are there more Epstein files?

00:27:15.780 Oh my God.

00:27:17.420 Yes.

00:27:18.280 There's tons of files, tons, tons of files.

00:27:23.120 There's, there's, when she said she had the file sitting on her desk, I was just stunned.

00:27:29.420 I'm like that those files wouldn't even fit in her office.

00:27:32.380 I mean, it's, it's, remember they did an investigation way back in 2005, all that stuff had to land

00:27:42.800 at the justice department because, you know, they did a subsequent investigation in New York.

00:27:48.340 So they had to look at everything and remember the, the department of Homeland security has

00:27:53.920 records because he went in and out of all those airports with his private planes.

00:27:58.160 They kept track of who was on his planes.

00:28:00.400 They haven't released that.

00:28:01.780 The FAA has flight records that haven't been released.

00:28:05.380 There's been, there's been tons of material in different government departments that even

00:28:12.640 hasn't been released.

00:28:14.600 And, and like I said, you can look on the vault.

00:28:17.300 There's like, I don't know, 20, 30 parts, Jeffrey Epstein, part one, two, three, four.

00:28:24.380 And if you click on all those things, you'll see, you know, hundreds of pages.

00:28:28.560 So there's probably tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of pages of documents, you know,

00:28:35.200 so, uh, that are still missing that are ostensibly at this point being covered up.

00:28:39.640 Right.

00:28:39.960 Cause they're all redacted.

00:28:42.280 It's the FBI's, the vault.

00:28:44.100 So that's her saying there's more, there's a lot more, uh, Ben.

00:28:48.440 And then I'll just give you one more from her.

00:28:49.860 She also has serious doubts about the cell block tape showing not Jeffrey Epstein's cell,

00:28:58.120 but the area outside of his cell, which she does not credit in any way, shape or form.

00:29:03.880 She completely rejects that as evidence.

00:29:05.940 He did not kill himself or that he did kill himself.

00:29:09.060 Sorry.

00:29:09.380 I always screw that up.

00:29:10.120 Uh, here she is in, uh, let's see, SOT 6, I think it is.

00:29:15.600 Yeah, they got it.

00:29:17.120 I covered prisons for about four years and I can't even tell you some of the stuff that

00:29:24.080 people get away with in those prisons.

00:29:26.560 They know exactly where the cameras are.

00:29:28.860 They know exactly how to commit crimes where nobody knows how to do them.

00:29:32.680 It is a science to them.

00:29:34.620 I mean, these prisons are full of corrupt people and it's just not a far-fetched idea

00:29:42.700 and not a conspiracy theory to think that something else may have happened.

00:29:47.580 Now, I'm not saying he was murdered.

00:29:49.860 I just don't think we know the full story.

00:29:54.900 Okay.

00:29:55.440 Your thoughts on that?

00:29:56.740 Well, I mean, that last quote's about as vague as it's possible to be.

00:29:59.880 I mean, there have been multiple autopsies.

00:30:01.280 She did go on.

00:30:02.120 She talked about how you can't see Jeffrey Epstein's cell.

00:30:04.620 You don't know whether another prisoner went in there.

00:30:06.720 Oh, no, that's fine.

00:30:07.080 But when she says she's not saying that he didn't commit suicide, but it's possible.

00:30:11.980 What I want to know is then who killed him.

00:30:14.400 So, again, I'm only operating off the evidence that I can see in front of my eyes.

00:30:19.100 We can all speculate it's the evidence that we can't see, but now we're doing kind of

00:30:21.860 God of the Gap sort of stuff.

00:30:23.400 Okay, well, I mean, I don't have evidence of what the other two cameras that were broken

00:30:26.260 or allegedly broken saw.

00:30:28.300 And I don't have that and you don't have that.

00:30:29.480 Nobody has that, right?

00:30:30.240 It doesn't exist, supposedly.

00:30:31.440 And as far as this camera, all I can see is what's on the footage that we were presented.

00:30:36.180 So I can speculate, but my speculation is not worth very much.

00:30:39.780 And I don't think hers is on that particular score either, considering we now have multiple

00:30:43.580 autopsies.

00:30:44.460 So you can either believe it or you can't believe it.

00:30:46.180 But if you're going to provide an alternative theory.

00:30:48.260 One is the medical examiner who said, this is a suicide.

00:30:51.880 And one is Dr. Bodden who said, no, it doesn't look like one.

00:30:54.940 Well, Dr. Bodden, I don't credit for very much.

00:30:57.300 I mean, his prior history with autopsies is rather checkered.

00:31:00.580 And when it comes to the DOJ also did an autopsy and an investigation and found that he committed

00:31:04.680 suicide as well.

00:31:05.960 And again, I've talked to, without revealing sources, the people in the federal government

00:31:11.060 who I have talked to, who are familiar with the details of this case, have said unanimously

00:31:14.460 that it was a suicide.

00:31:15.440 Now, again, you can say that they're all lying.

00:31:17.140 I totally disagree.

00:31:18.260 Totally disagree.

00:31:19.000 I have my own sources high up in the law enforcement, let's say, I'll just go that

00:31:24.340 far, who say, not only do we believe he was an agent, but we don't believe he killed himself.

00:31:29.760 I mean, that's fine.

00:31:30.960 And then they should come out and they should say that.

00:31:32.640 And then they should say who's covering that up.

00:31:34.720 Because then they can't.

00:31:37.480 I mean, there are a lot of people who say they can't, right?

00:31:39.520 They can't because let's look at what the administration is saying right now.

00:31:42.920 They don't want to be the one to cross Trump.

00:31:44.620 But my position is, like, show us all the evidence.

00:31:46.860 Just so we can come to our own conclusions.

00:31:48.240 I have names of the people.

00:31:49.640 So I agree with you.

00:31:50.360 That's fine.

00:31:51.340 But in the absence of that, I have the names of the people who are making the claim that

00:31:55.920 Jeffrey Epstein killed himself and that the most gross and sort of extreme of the conspiracy

00:32:02.440 theories or theories, just don't even call them conspiracy theories.

00:32:05.200 The most sort of extreme version of the theory is not true.

00:32:08.580 I have names of the people who are claiming that.

00:32:10.700 They are all in the administration.

00:32:12.420 And this is my point.

00:32:13.440 If other people want to make those claims that are counter to that, then they should

00:32:16.160 provide evidence or at least put their names on it so we can question them about that as

00:32:20.060 well.

00:32:20.200 Because otherwise, we're just in the realm of pure speculation.

00:32:22.600 And frankly, I just don't find that useful.

00:32:24.440 I would love more useful information.

00:32:25.800 This is why I'm angry at Pan Bondi.

00:32:27.040 I think there should be all the useful information possible.

00:32:29.420 But the same thing holds true for people who are making claims on the other side.

00:32:31.960 Otherwise, I can claim that he was working for a cadre of space aliens who are blackmailing

00:32:36.720 high-profile Americans in order to protect from a future invasion.

00:32:39.340 And there's just about as much evidence for that as many of the claims that are being

00:32:41.900 made on the other side.

00:32:42.920 All right.

00:32:43.360 Well, let's talk about that.

00:32:44.080 Any claim that is made requires evidence.

00:32:45.680 Any claim that's being made requires actual evidence.

00:32:48.040 And at the very least, in the absence of evidence, the credible names of the people

00:32:51.500 that I can either trust or not trust, ranging from, again, the president of the United States

00:32:55.280 and vice president to the head of the FBI, the AG, and the deputy head of the FBI.

00:33:00.060 Well, I think it's very hard to say those people need to come out and put their names

00:33:04.060 on their, on these claims when they're working for an administration, this one and the one

00:33:08.680 before that didn't want that to come out.

00:33:11.300 You're asking somebody to countermand the people they work for.

00:33:13.940 How am I supposed to falsify their claims?

00:33:15.800 Now we're working in the realm of the unfalsified.

00:33:17.040 You're not, but you're, look, Ben, you can't come to me and say, everybody I know says he

00:33:22.460 killed himself.

00:33:23.200 And then I respond saying, I actually have my own sources who say he didn't.

00:33:26.980 And then you say, well, your sources are not valid because they won't put their names

00:33:30.320 on it.

00:33:30.940 Okay.

00:33:31.260 Well, no, I'm not saying they're invalid.

00:33:32.280 Let's go down the list.

00:33:33.260 And then we'll talk about why they might be saying that.

00:33:35.700 My sources are the president of the United States, the vice president of the United States,

00:33:38.500 Cash Patel, the head of the FBI, Dan Bongino, the deputy head of the FBI, and Pam Bondi,

00:33:42.500 the attorney general.

00:33:43.360 And those aren't just my sources.

00:33:44.160 They're everybody's sources because they publicly came out and said this.

00:33:47.160 Okay.

00:33:47.680 Trump hasn't specifically weighed in on that specific aspect of it.

00:33:50.580 We've all seen the limited things that Trump has said and tweeted on this.

00:33:53.520 And J.D. Vance was calling for transparency and suggesting otherwise prior to taking office.

00:33:57.860 He hasn't commented on this so far.

00:33:59.220 So he's not one of his sources.

00:34:00.320 He's the vice president.

00:34:01.200 You've got Cash, you've got Dan, and you've got Pam.

00:34:03.000 And we've already discussed that memo in full detail.

00:34:05.860 I'm talking about people behind the scenes who, prior to this, to Trump taking office,

00:34:11.520 I'm not going to get too specific.

00:34:13.360 But trust me, I have high-level sources who have said they don't believe any of that.

00:34:17.860 Any of that.

00:34:18.600 Okay.

00:34:18.780 And I'm not going to out them for purposes of convincing you, but you're telling me name

00:34:22.460 them.

00:34:22.780 No, I'm not going to.

00:34:23.700 I don't have authorization.

00:34:24.260 No, I'm not saying no.

00:34:24.820 And then you say, well, I dismiss all of it because you won't name them.

00:34:27.820 Hold on, Megan.

00:34:28.320 I'm not saying you should name them.

00:34:29.500 I'm saying they should name themselves because otherwise they are being complicit in one

00:34:33.500 of the greatest cover-ups in the history of the American Republic.

00:34:34.980 That's easy for you to say, Ben.

00:34:35.960 That's very easy for you to say.

00:34:37.140 Why is that easy for me to say?

00:34:38.080 Why?

00:34:38.960 Because you'll have your job and you'll have your millions no matter what they do.

00:34:42.840 Megan, give me a break.

00:34:43.660 If somebody came out today and they were a whistleblower on the greatest scandal in the

00:34:46.840 history of the American Republic, they would make more money tomorrow than in their

00:34:50.620 entire life working for the FBI.

00:34:52.840 That's ridiculous.

00:34:53.280 There are reasons not to cross the people who are in charge, and that's all I'm going

00:34:58.220 to say.

00:34:58.700 Look, this is me not having drawn a conclusion.

00:35:00.820 I don't know what the truth is.

00:35:02.580 I've been reporting in a way.

00:35:03.720 I mean, I see you've taken a side that you've chosen to believe the story that's being offered,

00:35:08.020 and that's fine.

00:35:08.680 A lot of people have.

00:35:09.580 I'm not there yet.

00:35:10.340 I don't actively say that there's a pedophile ring.

00:35:13.460 I don't say any of that.

00:35:14.380 I'm just following the facts, and we're not at the place where I can draw that conclusion.

00:35:18.700 Well, no, I can draw the conclusion that the evidence that I'm seeing and the people

00:35:21.780 who are speaking about it lead me toward this particular conclusion.

00:35:24.900 And if counter evidence is presented that is not speculative, then I will change my conclusion

00:35:29.240 because that's what I've done on this case.

00:35:30.800 Until this memo came out, I was weighing toward the more extreme version of this theory,

00:35:35.920 and you can look back at my tweets and what I've said about it.

00:35:37.640 And then this came out, and now my perspective has changed.

00:35:41.780 When the facts change and the people who are speaking change,

00:35:43.480 I guess I'm just not that trusting of government.

00:35:45.520 There are other facts.

00:35:46.580 They said not credible.

00:35:48.280 There's no credible evidence.

00:35:49.820 They talked about what was the qualifier they used on the client list,

00:35:55.340 something like no persuasive client list or something.

00:35:57.320 Megan, I'm not that trusting of government either,

00:35:59.320 unless I know the exact people in government we're talking about.

00:36:02.380 Okay.

00:36:02.720 I mean, look, all I've said so far is I trust Dan.

00:36:05.680 But do you believe that Dan has all the information?

00:36:08.360 You believe Dan Bongino has everything?

00:36:09.760 You believe he's seen all the SDNY had?

00:36:11.780 You believe, what about Julie Brown's claims about the number of data,

00:36:14.600 like the documents, the Department of Homeland Security,

00:36:17.340 flight logs on who was on his planes?

00:36:19.840 Do you believe he has all that in his purview?

00:36:21.560 And he's said, I've reviewed it all and none of it's persuasive.

00:36:24.320 I don't believe that.

00:36:24.900 I believe Dan's reviewed what's been made available to him by the pre-existing FBI.

00:36:31.140 And in there, he hasn't come up with anything that proves Epstein was murdered

00:36:34.820 or found some child pedophile ring that's been covered up.

00:36:38.040 That's fine.

00:36:38.880 I'll accept his word and effectively cash his word and Pam's word to some extent on that.

00:36:43.420 But it doesn't explain all these other questions that existed prior to them taking office

00:36:47.760 that have been raised by people like Julie Brown,

00:36:50.180 that have been raised by people like Pam Bondi before today.

00:36:53.380 And I'm not satisfied.

00:36:55.820 Again, I'm unsatisfied with the amount of information that we're getting.

00:36:58.780 But if the question is, is there information being hidden now from Dan or Cash or Pam,

00:37:04.060 then I would like evidence that there's information hidden from them

00:37:06.620 in the same way that I want them to be more transparent.

00:37:09.360 Why is asking for evidence from all sides suddenly?

00:37:11.360 Well, are you not persuaded by that soundbite from Julie K. Brown, for example,

00:37:14.580 like that DHS would have more information.

00:37:16.780 That FBI, just on their vault alone, has tons and tons of redacted information

00:37:20.800 that you could see that they may or may not be able to see.

00:37:23.620 I don't know.

00:37:24.260 But that there's lots of information still out there.

00:37:26.860 I mean, she's claiming that quote that the FBI does have all that information.

00:37:32.360 Okay.

00:37:32.840 So do you think she's lying?

00:37:33.940 I mean, do you think the redactions are not available to the FBI?

00:37:37.360 I think the redactions are available to the FBI.

00:37:39.300 So what?

00:37:39.860 You were making the claim a moment ago that they actually are not available to Pam or Dan.

00:37:44.080 Well, that's my point.

00:37:44.680 So why don't they put them out?

00:37:45.600 So like what?

00:37:46.380 Why wouldn't they come out and say, here are the documents that we have?

00:37:49.320 We've redacted the following information.

00:37:50.940 This is a child's name.

00:37:52.340 This is a victim's name.

00:37:53.840 But where's the DHS account of who was on the Epstein plane?

00:37:56.920 Where's the Alan Dershowitz account of those names that I gave you?

00:37:59.800 And what role, if any, they played in this matter?

00:38:02.620 None of that's been provided.

00:38:04.340 I agree with you.

00:38:05.080 This should be more transparent.

00:38:05.780 Right.

00:38:05.940 And we've taken away different conclusions.

00:38:07.920 Right.

00:38:08.400 Your conclusion is that they're covering something up.

00:38:10.180 And my conclusion is that there's wild incompetence happening at the level of the attorney general.

00:38:14.000 And that's the reason why Dan is upset.

00:38:15.280 I don't think, I don't think you're, I think you're trusting the conclusions of that memo and a decision made by our administration to move past this far too much.

00:38:26.460 I mean, I'm pro-Trump.

00:38:27.720 I'm a Trump supporter.

00:38:28.800 But I think they've made a decision that they want to put this in the rear view.

00:38:33.420 You think it's because there's absolutely no there there and you're crediting that claim.

00:38:37.060 And I have doubts about whether that's true.

00:38:39.040 I mean, that's fine.

00:38:41.020 And again, I'm open to doubts about whether that's true.

00:38:43.320 But I think that once you have the doubts about whether they are lying to you, that's a different thing.

00:38:47.260 Is it incompetence or lying?

00:38:48.280 I mean, that really is the question, is it not?

00:38:50.020 You don't think even the Trump administration is capable of lying to the public because they think it's for the greater good?

00:38:54.920 They think there's a solid reason to do it?

00:38:58.080 I mean, I'm wondering what they are lying about and what the lies would be.

00:39:01.160 So again, I think in your middle scenario, that's the most credible scenario.

00:39:02.980 But you just answer my question.

00:39:04.140 Do you think they're capable of doing it if they think it's for the greater good?

00:39:06.540 I think anybody is capable of lying if they think that it's for the greater good, of course.

00:39:10.460 But I think that in order to answer the question of whether they are doing that, we would have to determine what greater good is being pursued and what the lie is.

00:39:16.220 I think all of this is a little bit.

00:39:17.120 Well, that's why some of us are still asking questions.

00:39:19.720 I mean, I'm not in the business of covering for any administration, Republican or not.

00:39:22.900 Megan, Megan, not all the questions are the same.

00:39:24.920 Asking a question about whether all the information has been released because there are figures who would be publicly humiliated because they were riding on Epstein's plane,

00:39:32.280 but there's no evidence the person was raping a child, is not quite the same thing as some of the more outstanding claims,

00:39:37.140 which is that the administration is covering up full scale for a child's sex operation.

00:39:40.980 Not all questions are created to say.

00:39:42.180 Okay, that's fine.

00:39:42.860 That's a debate you need to have with somebody else because no one on this set is claiming that.

00:39:46.840 All right, let's move on to point two, which is whether he was some sort of an agent.

00:39:50.520 And that's a possible reason why he got a sweetheart plea deal and or why to this day people aren't that interested in digging deep under the Jeffrey Epstein story.

00:40:01.300 So there's a lot of speculation about this.

00:40:05.260 You mentioned Tucker.

00:40:05.860 I'll just play what he said at Turning Point and we can take it from there.

00:40:10.160 What the hell is this?

00:40:11.240 You have the former Israeli prime minister living in your house.

00:40:15.420 You have all this contact with the foreign government.

00:40:17.620 And were you working on behalf of Mossad?

00:40:21.520 Were you running a blackmail operation on behalf of foreign government?

00:40:26.580 And there's another one.

00:40:27.820 Saw three.

00:40:28.420 Play that follow up.

00:40:29.580 And I think the truth for whatever it's worth, in case you're interested,

00:40:32.460 is that the DOJ didn't release lots of incriminating sex videos with Epstein and his billionaire pals because they don't have them.

00:40:40.000 They don't have them because when the original search warrant was served 2007, I think,

00:40:45.540 it was basically designed to protect Epstein.

00:40:48.580 The search warrant was written in such a way to make sure that the feds never got their hands on the actually incriminating evidence.

00:40:54.360 The real question is, why was he doing this?

00:40:56.760 On whose behalf?

00:40:57.600 And where did the money come from?

00:40:59.000 And I think the real answer is Jeffrey Epstein was working on behalf of Intel services, probably not American.

00:41:04.500 And no one has ever gotten to the bottom of that because no one has ever tried.

00:41:07.720 It's extremely obvious to anyone who watches that this guy had direct connections to a foreign government.

00:41:13.860 Now, no one's allowed to say that that foreign government is Israel because we have been somehow cowed into thinking that that's naughty.

00:41:24.280 There is nothing wrong with saying that.

00:41:26.740 There's nothing anti-Semitic about saying that.

00:41:28.180 There's nothing even anti-Israel about saying that.

00:41:30.140 I've spent my entire life pretty much in Washington where I knew and loved a number of people, including one very close person who worked at CIA.

00:41:37.580 That has never prohibited me from saying, I think the CIA has done some horrible things.

00:41:44.280 That doesn't make me a disloyal American.

00:41:45.940 It doesn't make me anti-American in any sense.

00:41:48.500 Okay.

00:41:49.100 So many people believe that.

00:41:50.980 You could hear the cheers in the audience when he said he believes Epstein was working for Mossad.

00:41:55.380 I, on my Twitter feed today, laid out some of the evidence why people believe he was an agent.

00:41:59.940 Um, I don't know whether that's true.

00:42:03.400 And if he was an agent, I don't know whether he was ours or he was Mossad or he was something else.

00:42:08.700 But I know there's, there's enough to sniff around on whether he was an agent.

00:42:12.080 The most persuasive piece of which is where to get all that money.

00:42:15.980 I mean, nobody's been able to answer the question in following the money of how Jeffrey Epstein earned all that dough.

00:42:22.120 Why is it problematic for Tucker to say, I think he was an agent.

00:42:26.120 I think he worked for Mossad.

00:42:27.440 I mean, Tucker can say it whatever he wants.

00:42:30.140 It's a free country.

00:42:30.860 I think that if, if he's saying that he worked for Mossad and that no one has looked into it and that he was running a child sex ring on behalf of Mossad and the evidence should exist for that to happen, then just say the administration is covering for Mossad.

00:42:42.940 I mean, if you're that certain of it and you believe that that's the case, then presumably the case that you're making is that the administration is now working for Mossad and covering up a child sex ring.

00:42:51.720 So he can say that.

00:42:52.660 That's fine.

00:42:53.040 But I think he should then have the balls to say what Dave Smith said, which is that the Trump administration was covering for a child sex ring.

00:42:58.620 That was a blackmail scheme run by Mossad.

00:43:00.240 If you want to actually say that, then say it.

00:43:02.760 OK.

00:43:03.460 And then provide evidence to that effect.

00:43:04.800 Because the only evidence that I've seen related to Jeffrey Epstein and Mossad, so far as I am aware, is a secondhand quote from Vicki Ward at the Daily Beast, who I do not consider a verifiable source, about Alex Azar, the original prosecutor.

00:43:20.120 She was on Epstein from the beginning, though.

00:43:22.140 I mean, her being on Epstein from the beginning doesn't mean she's a credible source.

00:43:24.540 She ran for the Daily Beast and she was arguing about a person who said secondhand.

00:43:27.960 Yes.

00:43:29.360 So what?

00:43:29.740 The Daily Beast is a shitty publication.

00:43:31.700 OK.

00:43:32.260 I'm just saying, like, that's fine.

00:43:33.580 You can dislike Vicki Ward.

00:43:34.700 I don't I'm not running defense for her.

00:43:36.940 No, but the point is that the Alex Azar quote that she is making is not even from Alex Azar.

00:43:41.360 It is a secondhand anonymous.

00:43:43.120 Thank you.

00:43:43.700 Sorry.

00:43:44.160 Alex Acosta, the prosecutor who ended up being labor secretary.

00:43:47.200 Alex Acosta, that quote was not from Alex Acosta.

00:43:49.840 It was from a secondhand source.

00:43:51.080 And that said that he was told to shut down the investigation because he was working for a for an intelligence agency.

00:43:57.960 Right.

00:43:58.240 That was that was that that quote.

00:43:59.960 And then let me just give it exactly.

00:44:01.580 I'll just give it exactly because we need to be precise.

00:44:04.580 So he she reported in Vanity Fair or she reported for Vanity Fair, like a definitive Epstein article.

00:44:09.740 And then she updated it in the Daily Beast in twenty nineteen when I think it was after Epstein died or could have been when Trump nominated him.

00:44:18.800 It was probably when they did the investigation into the.

00:44:21.000 No, it had to be.

00:44:21.640 Yeah, yeah.

00:44:22.180 Exactly.

00:44:22.800 Or the.

00:44:23.460 So she updated.

00:44:24.360 He was already in office, Acosta at this point.

00:44:26.340 So she she reported that standby.

00:44:30.600 I tweeted out now.

00:44:31.680 I'm looking to find out that she had spoken with a member of the Trump transition team when Trump was taking office, who told her that when they talked to Acosta about possibly becoming the labor secretary, they said, is this Epstein thing, this settlement that you oversaw going to be a problem for us?

00:44:47.760 You know, because you know, because you're the guy who basically gave him that slap on the wrist and that Acosta had told the Trump transition team that Epstein, quote, belonged to intelligence, end quote, and that he'd been ordered to, quote, leave it alone, end quote, and that he'd, quote, been told to back off.

00:45:06.540 He later was on the record, Ben, is saying main justice was the one who told him to settle that case and that they had approved of the Epstein plea deal.

00:45:17.920 So that's him.

00:45:19.560 We know that main justice did tell Alex Acosta to settle that case.

00:45:23.720 What we don't know is whether he in fact said all that stuff to the Trump transition team.

00:45:27.680 Well, he was asked about this at a hearing, I believe, a congressional hearing, and he said that there are a lot of rumors out there and you shouldn't believe everything you read, I believe, was something close to the direct quote from the congressional.

00:45:36.500 We have it, we have it, right, Deb, do we have, sorry, stand by, we have it on camera, it was first asked, it was a press conference on July 10th, 2019, this is the first we know of that he was asked about Vicki Ward's report, watch.

00:45:52.460 Secretary, were you ever made aware at any point in your handling of this case that Mr. Epstein was an intelligence asset of some sort?

00:45:59.860 Um, so, so, so, so, so there has, there has been reporting to that effect and, and let me say, um, there's been reporting to a lot of effects in, in, in this case, uh, not just now, but over the years.

00:46:14.140 And, and again, I would, you know, I would hesitate to take this reporting as fact.

00:46:22.940 Um, this was a case that was brought by our office.

00:46:25.920 It was brought based on the facts and, and I look at that reporting and others, I can't address it directly because of our, uh, our, our guidelines.

00:46:35.560 Um, but I can tell you that, that a lot of reporting is just going down rabbit holes.

00:46:42.620 I'm sorry, but that's a non-denial denial and he never came out to deny it in any other way after Vicki Ward reported it.

00:46:48.820 I'm not persuaded by his denial at all.

00:46:51.140 Uh, he did later tell the office of professional responsibility within the DOJ when he was asked during an investigation that he did not say that to the Trump transition team.

00:47:01.280 So later outside of the public setting, he reportedly did deny Vicki Ward's reporting, but I have questions about that too, because that's the department of justice investigating itself.

00:47:12.060 And under this theory that Epstein was compromised and the DOJ knew it, the DOJ would have been the one to tell Alex Acosta to drop it.

00:47:21.140 And then the DOJ would have been sitting down with Alex Acosta saying, did we tell you to drop it or didn't we?

00:47:26.320 So I can see why people have doubts about that later testimony.

00:47:29.220 Again, I don't know what's true, but that's a very weaselly answer.

00:47:32.080 He just gave it that presser.

00:47:33.160 I mean, that's fair to say it's a weaselly answer.

00:47:35.460 It's also fair to say that the original quote was never confirmed by anybody on the record, correct?

00:47:39.620 So I mean, like at the very best, that one is, it's, it's dicey.

00:47:42.040 I mean, like, I think the best you can say about that particular claim is dicey, both for and against.

00:47:46.820 Right.

00:47:47.180 And I see why you can take away either conclusion.

00:47:49.580 Yes.

00:47:49.880 I mean, is that fair?

00:47:50.740 Yes.

00:47:51.040 Yes.

00:47:51.240 But there's also the matter, like I said, of the money and there's also the question of super suspicious, but I think that's really more about Leon Black signing him a check for like $160 million for unspecified financial services.

00:48:01.100 Right.

00:48:01.380 And then Leon Black, right, exactly.

00:48:04.220 But then let me just make this other point.

00:48:05.760 Then I'll give you the floor.

00:48:06.900 Then I'll give you the floor.

00:48:08.300 You know, there's this former Israeli intel guy named Ari Ben-Minas.

00:48:13.080 Well, he claims he is.

00:48:14.440 The Israelis say he's not, correct?

00:48:16.960 Well, that was litigated.

00:48:18.460 And actually, if you if you look up this guy's Wikipedia, it's actually quite interesting.

00:48:21.540 It's wild.

00:48:22.720 But he's a wild character.

00:48:24.300 It appears he it appears he was.

00:48:25.940 It appears he was.

00:48:26.660 And there was this whole long trial in which they tried to disown him and it failed.

00:48:30.580 They failed.

00:48:31.700 So I think he is former in Israeli intel.

00:48:34.920 And this guy has come out to say Epstein was a Mossad agent and that he this Ari Ben-Minas was the agent who handled him.

00:48:45.620 Others, including Danny Yatom, who ran the Mossad for three years, say that's not true.

00:48:50.180 And this morning we had and Naftali Bennett come out publicly as a former Israeli prime minister saying I was with the Mossad.

00:48:59.560 And I mean, the Mossad reported directly to me.

00:49:01.740 And I say to you with 100 percent certainty, the accusation that Epstein worked for Israel or the Mossad running a blackmail ring is categorically and totally false.

00:49:09.140 Well, I mean, I actually followed up with with Bennett to ask for more clarification on that.

00:49:15.100 And what he actually told me is that Mossad has not run an operative against the United States or in the United States since Jonathan Pollard was convicted in 1987 because Israel really wants to steer clear of pissing off the United States.

00:49:26.680 So there's some speculation about whether Epstein wasn't an agent, but was like an asset.

00:49:32.040 Right. So asset is a really weird word in terms of intel, because he was also accused of being an asset for both the Saudis and MI6.

00:49:39.400 Right. So there are multiple intelligence agencies for whom he could theoretically have been considered an asset.

00:49:45.140 Asset is not necessarily by the legal definition, somebody who is like working for a foreign government.

00:49:51.440 It could be somebody who is giving information to a foreign government under a wide variety of auspices.

00:49:56.500 And so, you know, that's a lot bigger.

00:49:58.680 However, what we do know from what we do know from the public statements is that he was not working for an American intelligence agency.

00:50:07.120 The Israelis say he wasn't working for them.

00:50:08.580 Now, one of the weird sort of unfalsifiable aspects of this case is that if Mossad says somebody is not working for them, are they or are they not?

00:50:15.060 Right. So so usually.

00:50:16.180 Well, same with our intel.

00:50:18.040 Well, right. Exactly.

00:50:18.960 And so so this is kind of my problem with this case and why I keep begging for more.

00:50:22.300 Same as you, more transparency, more evidence.

00:50:24.220 I tend to believe that the DOJ and FBI are correct in their evidentiary presentation.

00:50:27.600 You tend to not. But I think that we're coming to the same conclusion, which is release everything you got, because I don't think anybody should be afraid of the answers.

00:50:33.740 I just think there's a way in which it's not some they're not covering up for pedophiles that Jeffrey Epstein was the disgusting dirtbag that was referenced in that settlement agreement.

00:50:42.620 I read to you part of and that there the DOJ at the time started sniffing around him and then quickly was pulled off of the Epstein matter.

00:50:52.040 And I believe Acosta might have been told by DOJ.

00:50:54.660 No, stop. Don't go there.

00:50:56.780 There's a reason.

00:50:58.080 I mean, there was a there, by the way, not for nothing, but I did find this interesting in my in my research.

00:51:02.280 The local the Palm Beach County state attorney at the time, Barry Krishner, wrote the assistant U.S. attorney at the time when it was settled about the proposed agreement.

00:51:14.020 Glad we could get this worked out for reasons I won't put in writing after this is resolved.

00:51:18.640 I would love to buy a cup at Starbucks and have a conversation.

00:51:21.420 There's just there's so much smoke around it.

00:51:23.940 And I think there's there there could be a piece in what Tucker said that's true, that they didn't investigate as hard as they wanted to or could have.

00:51:32.100 So they got pulled off of it.

00:51:33.760 And from that point forward, they never got all the evidence that we would like to see.

00:51:37.980 Anyway, my my mind is wide open.

00:51:40.240 Ben Shapiro, I love debating the facts with you.

00:51:42.580 Thank you for coming on.

00:51:43.920 Thanks, man.

00:51:45.200 All right. To be continued with Michael Schellenberger right after this break.

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00:53:34.700 Here for more on the Epstein discussion is journalist Michael Schellenberger.

00:53:38.440 He feels strongly, as strongly as we do, about the importance of the Epstein case.

00:53:43.000 Writing this weekend, quote,

00:53:44.280 This failure to follow through seriously undermines Trump's explicit commitments to reform

00:53:48.600 and shine light on the deep state.

00:53:51.440 Michael is the founder of Public News on Substack and CBR chair of politics, censorship and free

00:53:57.800 speech at the University of Austin.

00:53:59.860 Michael, welcome back.

00:54:01.000 Great to see you.

00:54:02.260 So I understand, you know, Ben's position, which is I trust these guys.

00:54:07.140 And without direct evidence to contradict what they're saying, I'm choosing to move on.

00:54:13.200 That's exactly what Trump would like everyone to say.

00:54:16.460 And I'm a Trump supporter, but I'm just not there yet because my only goal is to follow the facts.

00:54:21.100 That's it.

00:54:21.560 I I'm not trying to undermine Trump.

00:54:23.300 I'm not trying to help Trump.

00:54:24.480 I'm trying to just follow facts.

00:54:26.040 I feel like you're in my camp.

00:54:27.520 So where do you stand on all of this?

00:54:30.220 Yeah.

00:54:30.400 Well, first of all, it's great to be back with you, Megan.

00:54:32.000 And I'm really glad that you're continuing to cover this.

00:54:35.180 In fact, we just published a story really praising MAGA for standing up to Trump on this

00:54:41.820 and continuing to push for answers.

00:54:43.960 Of course, the media has said for over a decade that MAGA is a cult of personality.

00:54:48.200 I think it's proven that it's not with this.

00:54:50.560 And I think it thus marks a pretty important watershed moment in the Trump administration.

00:54:54.820 I think it's a big blow to the legitimacy of the Trump administration.

00:54:58.500 And legitimacy is really essential for governing.

00:55:01.520 So I think it's a big ongoing problem.

00:55:04.300 But, you know, look, I'm with you.

00:55:05.680 I mean, look, part of the problem is that you have the director of the FBI, the deputy

00:55:09.900 director of the FBI, the attorney general, all having made very strong claims.

00:55:16.100 You know, I mean, we have Pam Bondi said there was a truckload of evidence, thousands of pages

00:55:20.600 of documents.

00:55:21.680 You had deputy director Dan Bongino say that he was told that Epstein was an intelligence

00:55:27.380 asset for a country in the Middle East.

00:55:29.440 Director Cash Patel said that the FBI wasn't releasing the client list because of who's

00:55:34.540 on that list.

00:55:36.100 And then I think kind of tragically, you know, Cash Patel has sort of positioned himself as

00:55:40.940 a really loyal public servant for the president.

00:55:43.880 But Dan Bongino was a really trusted influencer, podcaster.

00:55:49.600 You know, he went on Fox and Friends and said that they were going to release the raw, unedited

00:55:54.720 video of Epstein's cell.

00:55:57.600 They did not do that.

00:55:59.140 That is not what happened.

00:56:00.480 And so they still have a lot of explaining to do.

00:56:03.420 I don't think the cover up's worse than the crime, but clearly there's a cover up that's

00:56:07.620 ongoing.

00:56:08.080 And I just don't see how the Trump administration moves on without transparency.

00:56:14.780 The why do you say they did not do that about the prison cell video?

00:56:18.480 I mean, I know there's a missing minute before midnight and now there's a report out that

00:56:23.200 the video itself has been, I don't want to say manipulated, which makes it sound nefarious,

00:56:28.480 but that changes were made to it prior to it being released.

00:56:31.040 Dan admitted on Fox and Friends that they were cleaning it up so that it was more easy to

00:56:34.700 see.

00:56:35.640 And that minute before midnight, I think his defenders would say, what kind of a ninja

00:56:39.800 could get in and out of the cell in a minute and commit this murder?

00:56:43.220 Like, if you believe that, you know, I got a spaceship I want to sell you.

00:56:47.240 But I think there are people like Julie K.

00:56:49.040 Brown who say, like her response to all that was, you're debating what happened at a Starbucks

00:56:55.340 in Austin instead of talking about JFK getting shot in the head in Dallas.

00:56:59.940 Her point has been that video doesn't show Epstein's cell.

00:57:06.540 It shows a common area down the hallway from Epstein's cell.

00:57:11.460 And we have no idea what prisoners may have had access to Epstein, what deal may have been

00:57:17.420 struck with them, how easy it was for them to get to him.

00:57:20.740 Even in his cell alone, if you want to argue, there was that just allowing him to commit

00:57:25.500 suicide was what was done as opposed to actual murder.

00:57:28.620 He was given two mattresses when most people had one.

00:57:31.280 He was given extra linens when that was forbidden, you know, a couple of weeks after he had tried

00:57:36.520 to kill himself.

00:57:37.120 So there's a couple of theories abounding.

00:57:38.760 But I'm curious what you why you think Dan didn't live up to the promise on the on the

00:57:42.660 tape.

00:57:42.880 Well, I mean, he said both he and Patel said that that we would be getting the original

00:57:48.860 prison video.

00:57:49.900 I mean, the exact quote from Patel was, we're going to give the original Epstein prison video

00:57:54.480 so you don't think there are any shenanigans.

00:57:57.560 You know, I was joking with a friend of mine.

00:57:58.660 I was like, one of the most endearing quality of Republicans is that they're such bad liars.

00:58:02.800 You know, the Democrats are really good at it.

00:58:04.440 But this is clear misinformation.

00:58:06.140 You know, you can see in the metadata that they were that the video was assembled from

00:58:11.800 two source clips, saved multiple times, exported and uploaded to the Department of Justice's

00:58:17.760 website.

00:58:18.040 This was you can see this both in the Wired report, also Coffeezilla, a really underrated

00:58:22.760 podcaster, did a really incredible investigation of it.

00:58:26.480 Moreover, it doesn't, as you said, it doesn't actually dispel suspicions in any way.

00:58:30.900 It doesn't it contradicts the previous assertion that all the inmates were in their cells

00:58:35.860 by 8 p.m.

00:58:37.500 Now, that was the previous assertion.

00:58:39.340 The new DOJ memo says Epstein was out of his cell around 1040 p.m., which is consistent

00:58:45.480 with a distant orange image in the footage that appears near the staircase to the cell

00:58:49.700 block.

00:58:50.620 But what's still unexplained is why the prison guards failed to complete their mandatory

00:58:54.120 rounds and inmate counts that night and then why they falsified their statements and

00:58:58.840 records by claiming they had.

00:59:01.260 So there's just too many.

00:59:03.000 I mean, the other thing was that we also saw this huge escalation in 2019.

00:59:07.320 The DOJ said that the Epstein indictment referred to dozens of victims.

00:59:13.360 Now they say it's 1000 victims.

00:59:16.180 That's the new that they've received the memo that the Trump administration just put out.

00:59:19.480 So there was 1000 victims.

00:59:21.060 So there's just so many missing.

00:59:24.780 I mean, and Michael, just to go back, we talked about this in hour one.

00:59:27.840 We pulled up the old DOJ documents from right around the time Epstein cut that sweetheart

00:59:33.120 plea deal in 08.

00:59:34.580 And in that in one of the related documents in settling a civil case with the victims,

00:59:39.360 the DOJ is on record as admitting he had approximately 30 victims as of 2008 from all around the country.

00:59:47.560 So in 2008, it was 30.

00:59:49.160 And then he cut a deal.

00:59:51.260 And from 2008 to 2020, 19 or to 2019, when he died, he amassed another 970 victims.

01:00:02.180 Obviously not.

01:00:03.100 Right.

01:00:03.360 I mean, they just that was part of the part of the sweetheart deal was to cover up the full

01:00:07.400 scale of the operation.

01:00:08.620 You know, I mean, I've heard it.

01:00:10.680 There's a there's a sort of a story going around now that this is all sort of a conspiracy

01:00:14.960 theory, you know, that we don't know, you know, you know what they got.

01:00:20.100 I mean, you know, this is the Miami Herald in 2019 reported that FBI agents found a cache

01:00:25.820 of thick black binders, all labeled with names that contain hundreds of naked or semi naked

01:00:31.100 photographs on CDs that Epstein stored in various places.

01:00:34.800 The picture that Bondi was sort of presenting was, well, he just had some child porn that

01:00:39.700 he had downloaded on his laptop.

01:00:41.180 That is just absolutely contradicted by all of the court cases, by what's been reported.

01:00:47.060 You know, the intelligence community ties are amazing.

01:00:50.760 I mean, you know, let's talk about I don't think you got to listen to my discussion with

01:00:55.060 Ben, but Ben does not he does not believe from the sound of it that that he was an intelligence

01:01:01.440 agent or asset, though we agreed asset is lesser charged, a lesser charged term than

01:01:07.680 agent.

01:01:08.340 But still, for my purposes, I don't care because I think the government would have an interest

01:01:13.400 in protecting him under either label.

01:01:16.440 And he doesn't put much stock into the reports about Alex Acosta, who was the U.S.

01:01:21.500 attorney handling the case for the feds when they went after Epstein in 08 07 08.

01:01:26.140 Um, because the best thing we have against Acosta is a hearsay statement reported by Vicki

01:01:32.680 Ward in the Daily Beast in 2019, in which she claimed that a Trump transition team official

01:01:38.780 had told her that when they went to Acosta, when they were considering him for labor secretary,

01:01:43.740 he said, like, this isn't going to come back to haunt us because, um, Epstein was, I just,

01:01:51.360 again, I don't want to say.

01:01:52.460 Belong to intelligence.

01:01:53.260 Yeah, I don't want to have the wrong language, but I do have it written down in front of me

01:01:57.320 that he, quote, belongs to intelligence and that he is, quote, above my pay grade.

01:02:04.840 I was told he was above my pay grade, um, and that he was, yeah, that he, quote, belonged

01:02:10.080 to intelligence.

01:02:10.740 And it told me to, to move off of the case, which, I mean, frankly, I believe, I believe

01:02:18.580 that, and I know many people don't because then later Acosta gave that smarmy little

01:02:23.660 on-camera statement at a 2019 presser when he was in trouble.

01:02:27.560 He was about to resign because he was part of the Trump administration.

01:02:30.680 Then Epstein died and all hell broke loose and he was on, on his heels.

01:02:34.380 And now he's like, oh, maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read in the press is

01:02:38.900 essentially what he said.

01:02:39.780 But then when he got interviewed by the Department of Justice's Office of Professional Responsibility,

01:02:44.780 he reportedly behind closed doors said, it's not true that I said that to the Trump transition

01:02:49.160 team.

01:02:50.140 Yeah.

01:02:50.420 I mean, you know, if that were all it was, but we also have, you know, I think you did

01:02:54.540 mention to Ben, I heard the last part of it, you know, Ari Ben-Munash, the former high-ranking

01:02:58.780 Israeli intelligence officer, um, who said that he was his handler.

01:03:03.940 Yeah.

01:03:04.360 He said he introduced Epstein to Israeli intelligence and that the higher ups approved of Epstein,

01:03:09.000 one of whom was the former prime minister, Ehud Barak, who was also the head of Israeli

01:03:13.400 military intelligence.

01:03:15.360 So how many times did Ehud Barak stay at Jeffrey Epstein's house?

01:03:19.660 I mean, what I, what we had, what we report is that Epstein had planned 36 meetings with

01:03:24.960 Barak without, I'm not sure how many of those meetings actually happened, but I mean, that's,

01:03:30.120 that's a huge number of meetings.

01:03:32.420 I mean, the CIA, the former CIA director under, under, yeah, the former CIA director under

01:03:37.680 Biden, Bill Burns, uh, has already been, the wall street journal reported that he had three

01:03:43.540 unexplained meetings.

01:03:44.600 So, I mean, you kind of look at it, it looks like there was a, a sex blackmail operation,

01:03:50.100 uh, being operated on us soil that the CIA knew about.

01:03:55.560 I mean, I just kind of think, I think it's important for people to remember too, that like

01:04:00.280 honeypots or sex blackmail operations, we know that the CIA used those in the, you know,

01:04:06.240 it starts in the 1960s.

01:04:07.800 According to Whitney Webb's reporting, the CIA actually got the idea for them or learned

01:04:13.720 how to do them from the mafia.

01:04:15.900 But, you know, 1975, the CIA operated love traps in New York city and San Francisco were

01:04:21.400 foreign diplomats were lured by prostitutes in the pay of the CIA.

01:04:25.660 They used one way mirrors to fill, to film the sexual adventures.

01:04:29.820 I'm, I'm quoting from Whitney Webb's two volume book, one nation under blackmail.

01:04:35.340 So this is, it's not like, it's, it's certainly not outlandish, uh, that, that was what was

01:04:40.800 going on, that, well, that what was going on was what it appears to have been, which was

01:04:45.120 a sex blackmail operation operated by intelligence.

01:04:47.240 And that's very serious, obviously, because we have a democracy that depends on the idea

01:04:52.640 that we're electing people who are loyal to the citizens and not to some secret intelligence

01:05:00.200 agencies.

01:05:01.100 But Ben said that he, after Naftali Bennett, uh, put out this statement today saying he was

01:05:08.260 never a Mossad agent, which I have to say, I credit not even a little, not even remotely.

01:05:12.180 I don't believe him.

01:05:13.460 Um, I don't actively disbelieve him either, but I don't put any of what do you, what would,

01:05:18.560 what would Naftali Bennett say?

01:05:21.380 What would Ehud Barak say?

01:05:22.400 Of course they're going to say no.

01:05:24.060 So it's like, okay, fine.

01:05:25.980 I get, but anyway, Ben said he reached out to Naftali Bennett's office and that they told

01:05:30.600 him for what it's worth that they haven't conducted any sort of spying operation on U.S.

01:05:35.100 soil since 1987.

01:05:36.460 I also don't believe that.

01:05:38.080 And what, what's making me uncomfortable, Michael, is that I, I'm just trying to lay

01:05:42.320 out the facts and I see you doing the same.

01:05:44.400 Tucker's saying what his opinion is, which is not outside of the mainstream at all, that

01:05:47.880 he thinks Epstein worked for Mossad or was a, was somehow an asset to them.

01:05:51.860 But this immediately, even if you're as a staunch, a staunch, a defender of Israel in general,

01:05:58.860 I haven't defended all the way they've conducted this war, but in general, their right to defend

01:06:02.260 themselves after the horrific attack of 10-7 and, and of American Jews who are facing

01:06:07.280 overwhelming discrimination on college campuses.

01:06:09.180 Even if you're in my position, you get lunatics out there who accuse you of being like anti-Semitic

01:06:15.000 because you are exploring this theory, which is such utter bullshit.

01:06:21.180 And honestly, like, I will just say this for the record.

01:06:23.440 If you think that those kinds of smears are going to stop me from reporting, you haven't

01:06:29.440 been paying attention to my career at all.

01:06:32.260 If anything, when you accuse me of shit like that, I will double, triple, and quadruple

01:06:36.640 down.

01:06:37.060 It tells me that I'm onto something.

01:06:39.720 So nice try, but you've chosen the wrong person.

01:06:43.220 You know, I can hear Tucker's frustration when they do this to him.

01:06:46.420 He's much more controversial than I am because he's interviewing the president of Iran and things

01:06:51.280 like, I'm like, I've been a defender of Israel.

01:06:53.440 So people who say I'm not going to fuck off, they don't know me at all.

01:06:56.760 I'm allowed to figure out what Jeffrey Epstein's actual connections were.

01:07:00.740 And if that leads me to our government or Israel's, too bad.

01:07:05.460 Your thoughts?

01:07:07.420 Well, no, absolutely.

01:07:08.600 Absolutely.

01:07:09.220 I mean, we come to the exact same conclusion.

01:07:11.640 I think, first of all, we don't want any foreign intelligence.

01:07:15.260 We don't want any sex blackmail operations operated by intelligence.

01:07:18.120 We certainly don't want any foreign intelligence, whether it's France or Germany or Israel or anybody

01:07:22.800 else.

01:07:23.280 I think the context is important here.

01:07:26.080 I mean, it's I think if you're a defender of strong defender of Israel right now, this is a

01:07:30.720 difficult time.

01:07:31.640 You have to remember a majority of Americans currently have an unfavorable view of Israel

01:07:36.220 and the share of Americans with a very unfavorable view nearly doubled between 2022 and 2025.

01:07:42.880 Now, among Republicans ages 18 to 49, which was that audience that you were with on Friday

01:07:49.760 night at Charlie Cook, Charlie Cook's Turning Point USA, 50 percent hold negative views of

01:07:54.900 Israel up from 35 percent in 2022.

01:07:58.040 So I don't think that I don't think that you're going to deal with that problem by trying to

01:08:02.060 cancel, as you said, people that are really allies of Israel, defend the right of Israel to

01:08:06.900 defend itself.

01:08:08.380 My co-author, by the way, the lead author of the piece that we just published, Daughter of an

01:08:12.360 Israeli, certainly Israelis have no hesitation about criticizing the Israeli government.

01:08:18.340 It just appears to be a kind of I mean, it's sad to see because I do see some people that engage in

01:08:24.080 that idea that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.

01:08:27.580 I see some of those are people that were actually very good on this issue of cancel culture and

01:08:32.460 kind of the woke reign of terror over the last 12 years.

01:08:35.360 So, no, I absolutely share your view.

01:08:37.840 You know, I think there's just this other thing that's going on, which is that MAGA, I

01:08:42.500 mean, very impressed.

01:08:43.400 I mentioned before, I'm very impressed with MAGA.

01:08:44.800 I disagree with MAGA on a lot of things, including some of the stuff around free speech.

01:08:49.240 I'm not a huge fan of the these attempts to do mass deportations in the way that they're

01:08:54.780 doing it.

01:08:55.540 But I got to hand it to MAGA.

01:08:57.160 They are sticking with their principles on this.

01:08:59.880 They want reform of the intelligence community.

01:09:01.900 I put out one tweet on election night after Trump won, which was that we need serious

01:09:06.480 intelligence community reform.

01:09:07.920 So, Megan, this Epstein cover up, which it clearly is, it's just undeniably a cover up

01:09:14.580 regardless of what we think it's covering up.

01:09:16.500 It's happening in a context where we're just not getting the transparency and disclosure

01:09:21.040 of information that we were promised, much less the intelligence community reform that

01:09:26.220 we were promised.

01:09:27.240 So, look, we have three branches of government.

01:09:29.660 Two are extremely strong, you know, Supreme Court and the executive branch.

01:09:34.240 I don't think Congress is stepped up in the way that they need to, with some exceptions.

01:09:39.560 Representative Luna, for example, has been wonderful in getting the JFK files released.

01:09:43.080 But I think Congress now needs to step up and hold those hearings to get to the bottom

01:09:47.620 of this.

01:09:48.040 I think whether or not there's a special prosecutor, as Steve Bannon has advocated, it's now time

01:09:54.240 for Congress to do its job and do its Article II duties under the Constitution and provide

01:10:00.760 oversight to the intelligence community.

01:10:03.040 There's not going to be a special prosecutor.

01:10:05.080 That's just not, there's zero chance that the executive branch is going to authorize that.

01:10:10.820 Zero.

01:10:11.000 I mean, they've already told us where they're going with it, which is move on, move on.

01:10:15.340 No, they're there.

01:10:16.120 What do you make of Ben's claim?

01:10:18.840 Like he says, so it's it's one or the other.

01:10:21.060 It's either this is all on Pam Bondi as a communications failure, which 100 percent is

01:10:27.560 in large part on Pam Bondi, the current crisis, because she definitely overpromised.

01:10:31.920 And then when she underdelivered, it was in the dark of night, skulked away with an unsigned

01:10:36.400 memo that she just wanted to shove down our throats and then have us accept or that this

01:10:42.280 is an active cover up and Trump blessed it.

01:10:44.140 So I said that I said that in a tweet, right, that this is either Pam Bondi created this

01:10:49.100 crisis and that the president is just standing by her because he thinks it's just a communication

01:10:53.580 crisis.

01:10:54.080 He believes there's no there there and he's willing to forgive her for her stupid comms

01:10:57.740 because she's a loyal soldier or this actually is a cover up and the president has authorized

01:11:02.820 it.

01:11:03.160 But Ben took that to mean that I was saying a cover up of an active pedophile ring that

01:11:08.280 Trump and Bongino and Kash Patel and Pam Bondi all know about and are fine with.

01:11:12.040 That's not what I said.

01:11:13.200 I think there's a there's an in between there of there's a decision to move on made at the

01:11:18.220 highest levels and loyal soldiers are going along with it and that there are reasons other

01:11:23.360 than like act girls are getting raped right now by pedophiles, foreign and domestic, and

01:11:30.040 we're all just fine with it within the Trump administration.

01:11:31.960 I don't believe that.

01:11:33.740 No.

01:11:34.800 Well, no.

01:11:35.340 And I think, too, I also saw somebody go viral on X over the weekend who said something like,

01:11:40.420 hey, that's all in the past and we need to really crack down on sex trafficking of minors

01:11:44.800 that's happening in the present, which I totally, of course, agree with.

01:11:48.080 But I think you have to keep in mind if there's impunity for sex blackmail or sex trafficking

01:11:52.780 operations in the past that directly undermines your ability to crack down on them in the present.

01:11:58.500 And look, if if it's not a cover up, then release the truckloads of documents and thousands

01:12:04.760 of documents.

01:12:05.960 I don't think this is just a communications problem.

01:12:09.280 If it is just a communications problem, then Kash Patel and Dan Bongino are equally guilty

01:12:15.280 of it because they went on Rogan and on Fox and Friends and said that we were going to get

01:12:20.160 the raw, unedited file of Epstein's cell and we didn't get that.

01:12:25.040 So I don't think that Bondi had her communications were particularly worse.

01:12:29.400 But again, I just don't think it's a communications issue.

01:12:31.780 I think when she said there's truckloads of information that had come from the FBI to her,

01:12:36.160 I think all these other information we've gotten shows that there's huge amounts of information.

01:12:41.100 You know, there was a whole there's deception involved in the communications.

01:12:44.660 They said there's no Epstein list that could be true, but it's completely irrelevant if

01:12:50.380 you have truckloads of documents and thousands of documents and hundreds of CDs with videos

01:12:55.540 potentially shot through one way mirrors of Johns with, you know, minors.

01:13:02.120 That's we're in a totally different universe here.

01:13:04.920 So, like, I think it's really good.

01:13:08.100 I think it's really important not to let it go.

01:13:09.940 I know the Trump administration is going to want to let it go.

01:13:11.940 I know a lot of folks that are Trump allies are going to want to move on.

01:13:16.000 We have a lot of things that we want to see the Trump administration do.

01:13:18.260 I mean, I just I thanked President Trump on Friday for what he's been doing on Brazil because

01:13:24.300 they're cracking down on free speech.

01:13:26.000 So I myself am in a situation where I'm like criticizing the administration.

01:13:31.120 I also am praising the administration.

01:13:34.220 It's it's requiring a level of complexity here, but I don't think we should let it go.

01:13:40.080 I don't think it's just a communications problem.

01:13:42.380 I think Congress needs to step up and do its job and provide oversight, even as uncomfortable

01:13:46.540 as that make people, because I just think it's going to be a festering issue for for months

01:13:50.840 or years to come.

01:13:52.260 Better just to be transparent and get the information out there rather than let it fester.

01:13:57.100 I mean, not for nothing.

01:13:58.480 But here's a from a New York Times article dated July 8th, 2019.

01:14:03.340 In a detention memo submitted on Monday, federal prosecutors outlined some of the evidence seized

01:14:07.540 from a search of Epstein's house on Saturday night.

01:14:09.800 It included hundreds, possibly thousands of sexually suggestive photographs of girls

01:14:14.520 who appear under age, as well as hand labeled compact discs with titles like girl picks nude

01:14:20.640 and with the names redacted young so-and-so plus so-and-so together.

01:14:26.000 Like that's just one example of the amount of data that's out there.

01:14:28.780 And you said that Cash and Dan had promised release of all the unredacted files.

01:14:35.760 I think you meant video.

01:14:37.360 Sorry, I meant video, yes.

01:14:38.740 Yeah, no, I know, I know.

01:14:40.380 And just to be clear, and so like on the video front, I mean, FBI, I think, would say they

01:14:45.420 have released the unredacted video.

01:14:47.320 But then there is this Wired report today saying that it's been, that it actually has been edited.

01:14:54.000 But they released two, you know that, they released like one that looks cleaned up and

01:14:58.140 one they say is the RAW, but the Wired report is saying that even the RAW has gone through

01:15:03.520 multiple modifications.

01:15:06.760 Hold on, I'm just trying to pull up my report here from Wired.

01:15:10.460 They say metadata shows the FBI's RAW prison video was likely modified.

01:15:16.160 Metadata embedded in the video and analyzed by Wired and independent video forensics experts

01:15:20.040 show that rather than being a direct export from the prison surveillance system,

01:15:23.400 the footage was modified, likely using the professional editing tool Adobe Premiere Pro.

01:15:27.920 File appears to have been assembled from at least two source clips, saved multiple times,

01:15:31.880 exported, then uploaded to DOJ's website where it was presented as RAW.

01:15:35.960 Experts caution it's unclear what exactly was changed and that the metadata does not prove

01:15:40.880 deceptive manipulation.

01:15:43.740 The video may have simply been processed for public release using available software with

01:15:48.400 no modifications beyond stitching together two clips.

01:15:51.940 But the absence of a clear explanation is a problem.

01:15:55.580 They go on to say if then they go to a professor at UC Berkeley whose research focuses on digital

01:16:03.640 forensics and misinformation.

01:16:04.720 And he says, if a lawyer brought me this file and asked if it was suitable for court, I'd say,

01:16:08.840 no, go back to the source.

01:16:09.960 Do it right.

01:16:10.420 Do a direct export from the original system.

01:16:12.960 No monkey business.

01:16:14.340 He points to another anomaly.

01:16:15.640 The video's aspect ratio shifts noticeably at several points.

01:16:18.420 Why am I suddenly seeing a different aspect ratio, he asks.

01:16:22.240 He says, while the metadata clearly shows the video was modified, the changes could be benign.

01:16:26.500 For example, converting footage from a proprietary surveillance format to a standard MP4.

01:16:30.900 The FBI did not respond to specific questions about the files processing.

01:16:34.080 Instead, referring wired to the DOJ.

01:16:35.980 The DOJ in turn referred inquiries back to the FBI and the Bureau of Prisons.

01:16:39.660 The Bureau of Prisons did not respond.

01:16:40.900 And round and round it goes.

01:16:42.140 By the way, here's that Julie Brown clip from the Dan Levitard show on why, again, the whole

01:16:49.260 debate about the metadata is like talking about the Starbucks in Austin instead of the president

01:16:54.720 getting shot in the head in Dallas when it was JFK.

01:16:59.040 Turns out that might not even be video of his cell door.

01:17:02.360 It is in his cell.

01:17:03.300 The whole thing, again, is a big, big red herring.

01:17:08.560 And they think the people, and I guess there are some people that look at this because it's

01:17:12.660 a frame of two cells.

01:17:14.700 OK, and then they point to them, him walking down below.

01:17:18.400 You can barely see him.

01:17:20.340 And now they're saying, oh, a minute is missing.

01:17:22.860 Well, it doesn't matter.

01:17:24.080 The video doesn't show Epstein's cell at all.

01:17:27.400 It doesn't even show where people are going in and out of his cell.

01:17:31.080 So, and if you read the report on his investigation, the guy who ran the cameras in the prison,

01:17:40.900 the tech guy, says to investigators, none of the cameras were recording.

01:17:47.880 OK, they worked in real time.

01:17:50.460 There was one camera that was recording.

01:17:53.200 That is the camera that they showed you the footage of.

01:17:55.640 But that camera is of what they call the common area.

01:18:00.480 It doesn't show the walkways.

01:18:03.680 For example, let's just say another inmate wanted to go in his cell.

01:18:07.480 You would never know that because we don't have footage of his wing.

01:18:11.520 There is a camera at the end of his hallway, but it wasn't recording.

01:18:15.500 It wasn't working.

01:18:16.960 So somebody could have, you know, left one of the other inmates' cells unlocked.

01:18:22.660 The inmate could have gone in and done something to him.

01:18:25.240 I'm not saying this is what happened.

01:18:26.680 But think about this.

01:18:28.300 They're showing you a camera that doesn't even show his cell.

01:18:34.820 Thoughts on that, Michael?

01:18:36.960 Yeah.

01:18:37.580 I mean, look, they, and that's, again, they promised that they were going to show,

01:18:41.960 they were going to share the raw video of the cell.

01:18:45.100 And that's just not what we got.

01:18:46.900 And they were, I mean, when you watch the Patel on Rogan and Bongino on Fox and Friends,

01:18:53.240 they were trying to just kind of go, look, no, no, it's just not true.

01:18:57.180 We've got the video.

01:18:58.260 It's going to absolutely prove this.

01:18:59.980 So for this to just, for, to, to, to see that it was doctored, the video.

01:19:04.880 And again, you could say, well, we didn't do anything misleading.

01:19:07.800 Well, then you need to release the raw video.

01:19:09.600 So, but again, as she was saying, great, I mean, it's not, even if they released the

01:19:13.800 raw video, it wouldn't show anything because you're still missing the video of his cell.

01:19:17.640 So it just feels like a deliberate misdirection on the part of the administration.

01:19:24.240 And again, that's why I don't just think it's Bondi's fault.

01:19:27.040 I mean, you know, and not to mention the fact that, you know, the FBI is a department within

01:19:31.660 DOJ and that both FBI and DOJ signed off on that memo.

01:19:35.280 So I, you know, I know you're friendly with Bongino.

01:19:39.060 I actually praised him last summer because he was absolutely right about the failures

01:19:43.500 of the Secret Service.

01:19:44.660 He predicted that spot on.

01:19:46.060 I think he was right about a bunch of other stuff, but, you know, he made a promise basically

01:19:50.080 to be a truth teller, you know, for MAGA.

01:19:52.940 So I, for me, you know, I just kind of go, you got to come clean.

01:19:57.940 You, I mean, I'm not saying he needs to resign, but something needs to change here.

01:20:01.700 I don't think just getting a phone call from Trump telling him to calm down should be

01:20:05.260 enough for him.

01:20:06.200 He's got made a promise to his listeners.

01:20:09.100 And I assume he wants to go back to rumble and do his podcast after the administration.

01:20:13.120 This is just unfinished business for him.

01:20:16.080 And, you know, Patel might be more of a character that, you know, is just there to kind of do

01:20:21.040 what the president wants.

01:20:21.900 But I mean, with Bongino, he sort of had this, this kind of dual identity.

01:20:25.740 And I think that makes this whole episode particularly problematic for him.

01:20:30.040 I, my own suspicion without knowing this firsthand is that the only way Dan's going to stay is

01:20:35.500 if something happens, like she agrees to a presser or she does an interview or she does

01:20:40.440 something because I do.

01:20:42.160 I just know, just having known him, that transparency really is his big issue.

01:20:46.060 And even though I'm sure it took a lot for him to go on Fox and friends and say, I think

01:20:51.020 he killed himself.

01:20:52.120 You know, I know it's a reversal, but like, I think that's what I think.

01:20:55.440 And somebody show me the evidence.

01:20:56.960 You got evidence.

01:20:57.540 I'll take a look at it, but we haven't seen it.

01:20:59.220 We haven't seen it.

01:20:59.940 I'm sure that took a lot for him because there's a difference between being, you know, in your

01:21:03.320 seat and my seat and then actually getting to the FBI and getting actual data or the lack

01:21:08.520 of it and having to say, look, we have it or, or we don't.

01:21:11.640 So I, for me, I, I believe he wasn't lying on Fox and friends about the, the murder suicide

01:21:16.320 thing.

01:21:16.820 Cause I think it took a lot for him to say that, but I know he's pro transparency on

01:21:22.060 everything and we're just not getting that at all.

01:21:24.920 And like, you know, I'm all over the board on this in a way, Michael, because like, I

01:21:28.540 don't know what to believe other than ever since that memo and Trump's, uh, cabinet

01:21:35.340 meeting the day after that memo, I'm more suspicious than ever.

01:21:38.580 Like that did exactly the opposite for me than, than I think was intended.

01:21:45.440 Yeah.

01:21:45.880 I'll tell you something else that I think is really interesting, Megan, is that, you

01:21:48.500 know, Trump is sort of famously gregarious, you know, talks a lot.

01:21:52.800 One of the criticisms, of course, is he shares, you know, information he shouldn't share.

01:21:56.700 That's been one of the constant criticisms of him, but here you have everybody around him.

01:22:02.060 Um, his closest people are all saying, we're going to release, you know, Epstein lists.

01:22:06.560 We're going to release the Epstein files.

01:22:08.300 I mean, the AG says that the director of the FBI, before he comes into office, the deputy

01:22:11.900 director, um, JD Vance goes on Theo Vaughn.

01:22:15.900 I think it was about a week before the election and said, yeah, seriously, we need to release

01:22:19.720 the Epstein list.

01:22:21.000 That is an important thing.

01:22:22.920 You see Donald Trump Jr., the president's son, uh, getting up there and, and, you know, saying

01:22:29.600 we need to release the Epstein list.

01:22:31.400 Look, I think one of the best arguments that there's nothing there that, that implicates

01:22:36.400 Trump is the fact that Democrats didn't use it.

01:22:38.940 They were, they were trying to put Trump in prison, trying to put him from running for

01:22:42.660 office.

01:22:43.400 Why didn't they use it?

01:22:46.120 You know, and, and, and, but it was a weird thing.

01:22:48.320 I'll say, you know, when you watch, uh, Trump was on Lex Friedman as well.

01:22:51.860 And there was an interesting moment where Lex, to his credit, because Lex has a reputation as

01:22:55.360 a bit of a soft interviewer, you know, he was really pressing the president on the Epstein

01:22:59.900 files and you just see it in, you don't have to be one of those body language experts.

01:23:03.620 You know, you just see Trump becoming really uncomfortable and he kind of hems and haws

01:23:08.000 around the Epstein files.

01:23:09.060 And then he goes, well, the JFK files, you know, we're going to release that.

01:23:12.380 And you kind of get a sense that at least in the president's mind, he was going to release

01:23:17.740 the JFK files and that that would be sort of, that would kind of cover the transparency

01:23:21.500 that they wanted to do.

01:23:22.700 But he was kind of like the Epstein files are a little bit more tricky.

01:23:25.400 It was like, well, but have you talked to everybody around you to not create expectations?

01:23:30.980 Because I mean, it's, I mean, you can say it's a communications problem, but it's like,

01:23:34.880 like they didn't get the memo.

01:23:36.980 I mean, it'd be the Bondi, you know, apparently it sounded like cash and, you know, it's not

01:23:41.600 like Patel and maybe Bongino kind of got the memo and that's why they went on Rogan and

01:23:45.340 then Fox and friends, but like the AG is just up there talking freely about truckloads of evidence

01:23:50.560 and thousands of pages, which sounded more like Bongino and cash prior to them joining

01:23:57.640 the administration, which sounded more like virtually every Trump surrogate when he was

01:24:02.660 running, right?

01:24:03.840 All the things that they had been saying.

01:24:05.900 And then what, you know, Pam Bondi's statements prior to actually assuming the role as DOJ as

01:24:11.380 AG sounded totally consistent with what most of MAGA had believed.

01:24:16.060 Not to mention we're letting Alina Habba off the hook, but she was probably more provocative

01:24:21.140 than anyone on Piers Morgan.

01:24:23.500 And it's not like she had no connections to the administration.

01:24:25.820 She was at that time, counselor to the president.

01:24:28.180 And within three weeks, she was working for DOJ and didn't dial any of it back and made,

01:24:33.040 you know, much bigger promises.

01:24:34.340 So look, I, I don't know.

01:24:36.940 I don't, I don't care.

01:24:38.240 I have zero desire to like hurt Trump as an electoral matter.

01:24:42.160 I'm on his side.

01:24:43.000 I've been very open about that, but I also prize honesty with the audience and just honesty

01:24:49.700 period first.

01:24:51.760 So this, you're right.

01:24:53.180 This is an awkward moment because you really have to make sure you have your integrity.

01:24:57.720 You have your commitment to honest reporting, and you're not letting your fondness for the

01:25:02.660 administration drive the way you cover it, nor like, as soon as I see the left jumping

01:25:07.960 on, I'm like, ew, that's, that makes me want to leave this, this little lily pot, you know,

01:25:12.720 like I don't want to be on the same side of Jamie as Jamie Raskin on anything, but I kind

01:25:18.160 of would like to see a hearing or a congressional subpoena.

01:25:22.260 Yeah.

01:25:22.700 Well, no, I'm with you.

01:25:23.520 I certainly don't want to help.

01:25:24.760 I mean, the left bring back, you know, all the awfulness they brought back, you know,

01:25:29.480 at the same time, intelligence community reform is something that had been bipartisan.

01:25:34.520 The last time we had significant intelligence community reform was in 1975 when you had

01:25:39.440 the church committee hearings, and then there was a whole set of reforms that were passed

01:25:43.360 into law with bipartisan majorities in Congress.

01:25:46.240 And so, yeah, I mean, I don't trust Jamie Raskin and the folks that have been really,

01:25:51.640 you know, we're promoting various hoaxes and conspiracies around the president.

01:25:56.060 But I do feel like there, I wish there were, this were an opportunity, like if, even if you

01:26:00.560 couldn't get the transparency of the Epstein files, can we get intelligence community reform,

01:26:06.680 you know, and that's not just putting, you know, Trump's picks as the head of those agencies.

01:26:11.560 It's real reform.

01:26:12.520 And you saw Tulsi Gabbard, the president's director of national intelligence at the Turning

01:26:17.280 Point USA conference that you were at on Friday night, get up there and say that just

01:26:22.340 openly that they're dealing with deep state operatives that are preventing them from releasing

01:26:26.960 information.

01:26:27.600 And so you have this clear.

01:26:28.980 Oh, and it's happening in FBI, too.

01:26:31.700 Yeah, you have this clear cry for help where and I understand the challenge of it, because

01:26:34.960 often those people that are the problem of blocking information are also, you know, valuable

01:26:39.120 for doing other things.

01:26:40.300 They have all this institutional memory.

01:26:41.640 They have all this, you know, they have strings that they're they're pulling in all

01:26:45.620 sorts of ways.

01:26:46.140 So I get that it's hard.

01:26:47.520 But that's why I'm like, you've got to bring Congress into it somehow.

01:26:50.280 You've got to get some dynamics set up where there's something going on to get more

01:26:55.900 information released to get intelligence community reformed.

01:26:58.920 If there really is, if all that's left in the so-called files is stuff that could potentially

01:27:03.960 be problematic for like an individual wrongly accused or, you know, nobody's interested

01:27:09.000 in seeing actual victims names of, you know, like that's not that's actually not appropriate

01:27:12.580 to release or secret grand jury testimony that we have no legal right to.

01:27:16.560 If you get a congressional subpoena, all that can be handled.

01:27:19.540 The administration might want that.

01:27:21.980 Right.

01:27:22.220 So it's like, here, take it all right.

01:27:25.100 If they're not interested in covering anything up, then they should welcome a congressional

01:27:29.060 to be great.

01:27:29.940 You guys take it.

01:27:31.620 Let this be your problem and not ours.

01:27:33.840 I think some people, at least in the administration, may want that.

01:27:36.400 I have to take a break, but I've got to ask you something quickly about the piece you just

01:27:38.820 dropped that as you came on.

01:27:41.160 It's called Why MAGA Isn't Dropping Epstein.

01:27:43.380 This is interesting on the question of whether Epstein was an agent possibly for Israel.

01:27:48.120 You write about this guy, Ben Minaj, who we discussed in brief.

01:27:50.580 He asserted that he introduced Epstein to Israeli intelligence and that his higher ups approved

01:27:55.580 of Epstein.

01:27:56.500 Once one such higher up was Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, who was the head of Israeli military

01:28:01.440 intelligence when Ben Minaj met Epstein.

01:28:04.440 Between 13 and 17, Epstein planned 36 meetings with Ehud Barak.

01:28:09.260 In the 1980s, according to reports, Epstein developed relationships with British arms dealers and often

01:28:17.060 traveled from the Middle East to London.

01:28:19.160 Ben Minaj alleged that Epstein was then contracted to act as a professional blackmailer on behalf

01:28:25.600 of Israeli military intelligence.

01:28:27.400 This is the part that's interesting to me.

01:28:29.760 Due to fears that a new American president would push for an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal.

01:28:36.680 Now, that is actually quite interesting.

01:28:40.000 Like, that actually gives a motive to Israel, potentially, for why it would do this.

01:28:46.360 Like, because, you know, it seems somewhat incredulous.

01:28:50.000 I'm incredulous to think Israel just wanted to see a bunch of little girls molested and sat

01:28:54.480 idly by while they watched.

01:28:56.260 And again, I don't think we're talking about little girls.

01:28:59.340 It doesn't make it better that they're 14.

01:29:00.780 I mean, I'm just there is a somewhat of a difference just in terms of the crime.

01:29:04.960 When you talk about six versus 14, 15, you know what I'm saying?

01:29:09.340 I'm not blessing.

01:29:10.060 Yeah.

01:29:10.460 Anyway, this this actually puts a potential motive behind why they thought it was worth

01:29:18.060 it.

01:29:19.240 That's right.

01:29:19.960 And potentially, I mean, a really disturbing one when you consider that this is potentially

01:29:25.300 an effort to control or influence U.S. foreign policy, you know, whatever you think of the

01:29:32.860 bombing of those uranium enrichment facilities in Iran, there's a legitimate debate about

01:29:37.520 whether that's in the U.S. interest.

01:29:39.840 You know, clearly it was started, instigated by Israel.

01:29:44.060 I think there's real questions about why that's in the U.S. interest.

01:29:46.940 It was, I mean, just to be, you know, open about it.

01:29:50.900 I mean, look, to be honest about it, Iran was complying with international law.

01:29:57.180 I mean, it had inspectors in there.

01:29:58.940 It had not kicked the inspectors out under the nonproliferation treaty.

01:30:02.540 It has a right to enrich uranium.

01:30:04.000 Again, I'm not defending Iran, I'm not defending the uranium enrichment, but this was not consistent

01:30:09.140 with international law.

01:30:10.500 And maybe we just don't believe international law anymore, shouldn't believe it anymore.

01:30:13.760 But, you know, I think there's reasons to wonder if that was motivated by some, motivated

01:30:20.500 by wanting to support Israel rather than an objective look at U.S. interests.

01:30:25.000 So all of this is occurring in a context when I think whatever you think of Israel-Gaza-Hamas

01:30:31.000 war, there's a genuine concern that the U.S. could get drawn into a broader Middle Eastern

01:30:36.740 conflict because of Israel.

01:30:38.300 I don't think that's, that's not anti-Israel to be concerned about being pulled into foreign

01:30:43.400 conflicts.

01:30:44.140 So when you add in this, you know, potential sex blackmail operation, yeah, it really dials

01:30:50.880 up the drama a bit.

01:30:52.760 Mm-hmm.

01:30:53.620 Well, I think it's safe to say both you and we will stay on it.

01:30:58.040 All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back on what we

01:31:00.440 just learned about Joe Biden and President Otto Penn.

01:31:03.500 This thing is getting more interesting and more problematic for the Biden administration.

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01:33:17.280 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

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01:34:18.700 You're talking about the auto pen.

01:34:20.580 Look, the auto pen I think is maybe one of the biggest scandals that we've had in 50 to

01:34:26.880 100 years.

01:34:27.880 This is a tremendous scandal.

01:34:29.480 And I know the people on the other side of the auto pen.

01:34:33.960 See that desk, that resolute desk?

01:34:35.660 Unfortunately, he used it before me.

01:34:38.460 But, you know, we have our choice of seven desks.

01:34:41.340 They're all beautiful.

01:34:42.740 But I chose the resolute and so did he, unfortunately.

01:34:47.180 But the people on the other side of the resolute desk, I know them.

01:34:52.520 Lisa, the whole group, and they're no good.

01:34:55.900 They're sick people.

01:34:56.840 And I guarantee you, he knew nothing about what he was signing.

01:35:02.380 I guarantee it.

01:35:04.040 So they're going to figure it out and we'll see what happens.

01:35:08.460 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:35:10.260 Michael Schellenberger is my guest.

01:35:12.020 He's founder of Public on Substack.

01:35:14.520 Michael, that was the president commenting on this New York Times report on the auto pen,

01:35:19.980 where they, for the first time, got access briefly to Joe Biden himself.

01:35:23.720 And it was revealed by him, he claimed, that he had orally granted all the pardons and commutations issued at the end of his term,

01:35:34.060 saying, I made every decision.

01:35:36.840 But the New York Times actually unearthing that the person who would actually, like, press go on the auto pen was her last name is Feldman.

01:35:50.120 And she, I guess, felt uncomfortable with the process they had set up because she was not in any of the meetings with the president, only was receiving direction from underlings and wanted to have some written accounts confirming his oral instructions in these meetings.

01:36:05.180 And yet, all she got was assistants who drafted blurbs who were not themselves in the room.

01:36:12.440 The assistants then circulated the drafts to the people who were in the room, like Ed Siskel, his White House counsel, Jeff Zients, his chief of staff, and some others.

01:36:22.140 And that whole people wound up pardoned or having their sentences commuted by Jeff Zients just simply hitting reply to all to approve these decisions.

01:36:36.140 So it was like Biden orally to some set of staff.

01:36:40.480 Then the girl who had to press go said, can I have something in writing?

01:36:43.960 And all she got was like a reply to all from the chief of staff saying, everything's approved.

01:36:49.040 And that is how we wound up with some of the most controversial pardons in U.S. history.

01:36:55.700 The only one he physically signed was the one for his son, Hunter Biden.

01:37:01.100 What do you make of it?

01:37:03.560 Gosh.

01:37:04.200 Right.

01:37:04.600 How could I possibly add anything to it?

01:37:06.960 I mean, it's so crazy because if you're if you're too debilitated to actually sign something, then how can you say that you were, you know, were fully competent to actually make the decision?

01:37:19.820 There's so much to unpack in there.

01:37:21.300 I mean, I thought the Times piece, first of all, is very long.

01:37:24.000 It was a very serious report.

01:37:25.940 They then frame it sort of defensively on the side of Biden.

01:37:29.980 Biden says he made the clemency decisions.

01:37:31.620 But if you actually go read that full piece, it is absolutely damning.

01:37:35.380 Investing, you know, Comer, you know, Congressman Comer doing oversight apparently is issuing new subpoenas.

01:37:41.300 There's going to be more of investigation.

01:37:44.140 You know, where where does it go legally?

01:37:46.180 I mean, who knows?

01:37:47.000 Does it go to the Supreme Court finally to rule on this stuff?

01:37:49.520 I mean, there's so much in it.

01:37:51.800 You know, Jeff Zinz, the chief of staff, Zinz, who pardoned Fauci, was also the main social media censorship coordinator on covid policy.

01:38:04.020 So, I mean, it's just, you know, so corrupt from top to bottom.

01:38:09.860 It's really quite shocking.

01:38:11.380 And that's really interesting because the other person who got pardoned, of course, was Fauci.

01:38:16.240 And he's the only other one that I think the president admits in this meeting.

01:38:21.220 He personally said, like, specifically yes to.

01:38:24.080 He said specifically yes to Hunter, specifically yes to Fauci.

01:38:27.200 And he signed the Hunter pardon.

01:38:28.700 But, I mean, the more we learn about Fauci, the more we come to understand that this whole cabal probably well understood that Fauci, this was not some prophylactic, oh, just protect our friend who did nothing wrong, that perhaps it was much more nefarious.

01:38:44.440 And they knew what we're starting to realize about Fauci and what we're starting to glean from the intel community, which is he knew far more and was repeatedly under oath with Congress lying.

01:38:56.080 Yeah, that's right.

01:38:56.640 I mean, it's also such a testament to, like, these cases that you think are actually that we know everything and they're ready to move on, that there's still information coming out about them.

01:39:05.860 I mean, I thought we knew everything about Biden's, you know, poor health until the the Jake Tapper, you know, book came out, which was, I think, contained a bunch of new revelations as annoying as it was coming from him.

01:39:17.760 But similarly, for COVID, there's still there's so much we still don't know about COVID.

01:39:22.380 And what was it that they were doing?

01:39:24.620 You know, was COVID, you know, if it's created in a lab, I mean, this whole idea that it was a people go people say it's a conspiracy theory.

01:39:32.480 It's a conspiracy theory to suggest it was a bioweapon.

01:39:34.620 But if it was created in a lab, you know, it was potentially in a lab that PLA had oversight over the Chinese army.

01:39:43.600 It was potentially a bioweapon.

01:39:46.380 And so you're looking at essentially I mean, I still told this to some progressive friends of mine.

01:39:50.740 They were like, what are you actually saying?

01:39:52.040 And I was saying I'm saying that it looks as though and we don't have all the proof yet, but it looks as though the United States was involved in a bioweapons program, you know, I think motivated to develop vaccines against those bioweapons, but was involved in a bioweapons and vaccination program in China.

01:40:08.960 We funded it.

01:40:10.180 We did a lot of the intellectual development of it.

01:40:13.460 And then it leaked.

01:40:15.020 And the guy that was responsible for creating it also oversaw the response, which, Megan, I think people don't fully appreciate.

01:40:23.680 I mean, we know, of course, it was, you know, people know that it was an over we over responded to it.

01:40:29.080 One of the questions is why?

01:40:30.500 Like, why was there such a radical, aggressive response to COVID with the lockdowns and the school closures?

01:40:35.760 One possibility is that they knew perfectly well that it was a bioweapon, that it wasn't some thing that leaked out from the wild.

01:40:44.240 And so one of the remaining questions that we want to get at is, did Fauci and his lieutenants realize, oh, you know, they were developing a bioweapon in that lab?

01:40:52.980 Again, I'm not saying it was some conspiracy to poison the world or kill all these people.

01:40:56.600 I'm just saying as a military project to develop vaccines to potential bioweapons and then when it leaked, the response to it resembled much more of a response that you would have to a bioweapon rather than to some virus that had emerged naturally, you know, from the jungles of South China.

01:41:14.940 Mm hmm. And now I feel like we're never going to know because there is no question in my mind that neither Fauci nor Francis Collins left those offices without scrubbing anything and everything that would have reflected any of that.

01:41:32.300 Yeah, you could be right. You know, like I said, I think that, you know, I think we all thought, you know, I just published a I've been publishing a debate around the JFK files and the person that thinks it was a lone shooter wrote a book called

01:41:44.880 Case Closed that came out of the 90s. So, you know, I think that sometimes we think these things are case closed, but there is some information lurking out there.

01:41:53.740 So another reason to keep the cases open and continue to investigate and continue to demand transparency in congressional hearings, because there could very well be more information out there that we're not aware of.

01:42:05.080 Well, and I wonder now whether the Fauci pardon and for that matter, the Hunter Biden, I don't know.

01:42:12.860 I'm like, not sure if Biden was non-compass mentis, the Hunter one could be in trouble, too.

01:42:16.360 But really, the auto pen pardons, whether they're really going to stand.

01:42:20.140 I mean, the odds you'd have to put money on them standing.

01:42:22.680 I don't think the Supreme Court is going to want to second guess any of this, but it's one of the reasons why we need this Dr.

01:42:27.480 Kevin O'Connor to actually speak, notwithstanding his BS assertions of privilege, which don't stand when you're looking at a congressional subpoena.

01:42:35.680 Not the attorney or the doctor patient privilege.

01:42:38.580 Now we'll see about the Fifth Amendment.

01:42:39.880 If he gets immunity, that too should go away.

01:42:42.260 Anyway, there's a lot more happening on that front.

01:42:44.880 That one's not over, not by a long shot.

01:42:46.560 Michael Schellenberger, I love your journalism.

01:42:49.360 I love reading your stuff.

01:42:51.280 Come back more often, please.

01:42:53.680 Thanks so much for having me, Megan.

01:42:54.840 Great to see you.

01:42:56.260 OK, see you soon.

01:42:57.140 Back tomorrow.

01:42:57.580 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:43:03.060 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 14, 2025

MAGA Demands More Epstein Transparency, and Epstein's Potential Intel Ties, with Ben Shapiro and Michael Shellenberger ｜ Ep. 1107

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