The Megyn Kelly Show - Marco Rubio and Tulsi Gabbard - Megyn Kelly's ＂Double Feature＂ of Fascinating Interviews

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00:00:58.260 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:09.960 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show in today's Sunday double feature mega episode.

00:01:15.720 Today we are looking back to two deep dive conversations we had with members of the Trump administration

00:01:20.980 on the week where we just had another one with Vice President J.D. Vance, who we sat with on Tuesday.

00:01:26.160 You can go and find that on YouTube and all podcast platforms.

00:01:29.760 But today, I look back at past conversations with Secretary of State and National Security Advisor Marco Rubio and DNI Tulsi Gabbard from the beginning of the Trump admin in 2025.

00:01:43.220 In fact, when we did this one, Marco had not yet become National Security Advisor.

00:01:47.440 He was just the Secretary of State before he'd been asked to do every other job in the admin.

00:01:51.380 And it still holds. It's such a good overview of the Trump foreign policy vision and the Rubio foreign policy vision. And we covered all, you know, Greenland, Panama Canal. Like, you listen and you will hear a comprehensive vision for Trump 2.0 that you might find very fascinating.

00:02:13.060 And Tulsi, too, who sadly will not be DNI any longer, thanks to her husband's cancer, unfortunately, but came in loaded for bear and ready to really shake things up in the intel field.

00:02:26.420 And now we're just arguing over who will be her successor and whether we can get that person confirmed.

00:02:31.340 There's been some drama around that this week.

00:02:33.360 In the meantime, enjoy the following interviews and we'll see you Monday.

00:02:36.520 today our exclusive interview with the 72nd secretary of state marco rubio this is his

00:02:45.580 first long-form sit down he said it was his first interview since taking on the new role

00:02:50.400 uh just over one week ago of all the trump 2.0 nominees he's the only one so far who gained i

00:02:57.820 mean entirely bipartisan support passing unanimously by the senate with a 99 to 0 vote

00:03:04.160 and as the only nominee to receive a vote on day one of the second Trump administration.

00:03:09.900 On the eve of his first foreign trip as Secretary of State, interestingly, to Panama,

00:03:14.880 we get into everything.

00:03:17.320 We go to Greenland, we talk China, we talk Iran, Israel,

00:03:22.860 and we do get into the deep state.

00:03:26.780 Enjoy.

00:03:28.000 Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for doing this.

00:03:30.020 Thank you. It still feels weird to hear that.

00:03:31.640 It does, right? You're a week in now?

00:03:34.160 eight days but i'm not counting i'm just saying it's been eight days yeah eight nine days there's

00:03:38.480 so much i want to go over like the the change between the senate and here what how you're you

00:03:42.160 know what's it like to be at the heart of the deep the deep state but let me start with um

00:03:47.200 the plane crash yeah it's so awful it is it's horrible i mean just from a human standpoint of it

00:03:52.400 to think these are people that are i mean they were landing i mean we've all been on these planes

00:03:55.520 you're getting ready to land you're excited you're getting ready to go maybe your phone's already

00:03:58.640 connecting because you're ready to get on the ground and then something like this comes out

00:04:01.600 out of the blue and it's a horrible tragedy and we don't forget that there were service members

00:04:05.700 involved in this as well who lost their lives in this terrible accident obviously the it's not a

00:04:10.880 state department function but um the key to these is first to honor those who have passed and

00:04:15.680 understand the pain of these families the second is to figure out why this happened so that it

00:04:20.000 never happens again this is a very busy airport and um and there's a lot of traffic going in and

00:04:24.460 out through this city so but it's just heartbreaking and i'm sure as we hear the individual stories of

00:04:29.480 people involved will be even sadder. Does it underscore at all why President Trump needs his

00:04:34.600 nominees confirmed quickly? Yeah, especially on the response part of it, right? I mean, so ultimately

00:04:39.160 there was a failure here at some point, like helicopters and airplanes are not supposed to

00:04:42.360 crash into each other in the capital of the United States at one of the busiest airports in the

00:04:46.740 country. This isn't supposed to happen. So it happened for a reason. And someone needs to lead

00:04:50.940 a process that figures out why. And then you need to lead a process to make sure it doesn't happen

00:04:54.620 again. And look, it happened here. It could happen in some other city, too. And so you need to have

00:04:59.000 someone at the head of these departments that are in charge of this and um and it may be multiple

00:05:03.660 departments because it's going to involve dod it's going to involve the department of transportation

00:05:07.520 but it may involve other elements of the u.s government and you need to have somebody running

00:05:11.320 the agencies or they will not be you're just not going to get the same responsibilities yeah god

00:05:15.380 forbid we had something happen on an international basis you're installed but tulsi's you know that

00:05:20.200 one could take a while and there's been a little foot dragging um all right so you've been in the

00:05:24.760 job now for eight days what's the biggest difference between being a u.s senator and

00:05:28.060 being the secretary of state well two things first of all my boss is uh president trump is a person

00:05:33.840 that moves very quickly i'll give you a perfect example this weekend we had a disagreement not

00:05:38.680 with columbia with the president of columbia who at four something in the morning decided to turn

00:05:43.440 around flights that he had agreed to we have it in writing they agreed these are columbian nationals

00:05:48.180 illegally in the united states and they have i mean under international agreements they have to

00:05:53.000 take back their nationals and they agreed to it at 4 30 in the morning he for whatever reason was

00:05:57.980 either awake or about to go to bed and he decided to go on x and write that he had ordered that the

00:06:02.660 one plane was halfway there and the other had just taken off and ordered them turned around

00:06:06.220 and so in a traditional administration i would have taken about you know two and a half years

00:06:11.520 to react to it it would have gone through all this and all these policy options with president trump

00:06:16.140 it happened within a matter of hours it was very quick and so the ability to execute on action on

00:06:20.840 directive is a big difference between being in the senate the senate the house played a very

00:06:24.940 important role, but it doesn't have the executive role. And the executive part of it is the one that

00:06:30.360 I think is the biggest difference, the ability to see a problem and under our authorities address it.

00:06:35.800 And when you're working for someone like President Trump, it's going to happen very quickly. There's

00:06:39.600 not going to be a lot of debate going on. You know, in the wake of that plane crash,

00:06:42.700 I had to wonder last night whether, you know, their predecessors from the prior administration

00:06:48.080 were calling Pete Hegseth, were calling Sean Duffy. Have you spoken with Anthony Blinken at

00:06:53.420 all? Was there any sort of good tidings sent your way? Well, it's not at the State Department.

00:06:57.500 It's possible because when we're in our offices, we don't have our phones here in this building

00:07:00.940 because for security reasons. So it's possible they've reached out as of this morning.

00:07:04.880 But the truth of the matter is, you know, this is, well, there may be a state component if there

00:07:09.920 were internationals on the flights of citizens of another country. You know, we obviously would

00:07:14.360 notify their embassy or consulate because their families and loved ones for that notification.

00:07:18.900 but uh but i would expect that at dod because obviously that was the department of defense

00:07:23.460 that was a military helicopter three service members have lost their lives and then most

00:07:27.680 certainly in department of transportation because they have the primary jurisdiction over the faa

00:07:31.720 and the broader you know airplane safety challenges but what about just since you took

00:07:36.580 the job is there is like does he give you a letter in the way that biden left he did he left a very

00:07:40.920 nice note and uh you know basically said welcome to the best job in the world and i'm here to help

00:07:46.600 anything you need and um and it's like i said it's a really important job it needs to become

00:07:51.420 even more important the state department in my view over the years has become less and less

00:07:56.300 relevant uh in the making a foreign policy uh for a variety of reasons and not because there aren't

00:08:02.260 talented people in the state department there are and and i've known that from the past interacting

00:08:05.880 with them but because it moved too slowly because it took too long to action because it you gave a

00:08:11.260 directive and it took so long for the state department to do something because of internal

00:08:14.680 processes or whatever that largely administrations would start to work around the state department

00:08:19.440 and i want the state department to be relevant again i want it to uh um to be at the center of

00:08:24.980 foreign policy making and um and so that's by providing advice to the president who ultimately

00:08:30.460 makes the decision about what we're going to do so um so it's it's a it's a great job and and i

00:08:36.040 tell you it's not just the position but to be secretary of state for donald trump is a great

00:08:40.780 job because you know you're not going to be wasting a lot of time once a decision is made

00:08:44.320 you're going to get to act it's such a tricky time to be secretary of state especially as a

00:08:49.440 republican because you look at the republican party and it's fractured internally about where

00:08:54.800 we should be on foreign policy it's not like during the bush years where it was you know we

00:08:59.380 were much more neo connie on the right and now there's a real division within the right within

00:09:05.200 maga even on how what should we do about ukraine there's most of the party i think wants nothing

00:09:10.100 to do with that anymore how what kind of saber rattling should we be doing about iran you know

00:09:15.180 there's a large strain that believes none we should be focused on china and we should stop

00:09:19.780 demonizing iran and russia and keep our eye on our biggest threat i know you think they're our

00:09:23.860 biggest threat as well so how just give me the 30 000 foot level view of how you're going to

00:09:29.060 navigate that fraction well i think we spend a lot of time in american politics debating tactics

00:09:34.380 like what we're going to do who we're going to sanction what letter we're going to send or

00:09:37.900 whatever, I think it really has to start with strategy. What is the strategic objective?

00:09:41.620 What's the purpose, the mission? And I think the mission of American foreign policy, and this may

00:09:45.640 sound sort of obvious, but I think it's been lost. The interest of American foreign policy is to

00:09:50.380 further the national interest of the United States of America, right? I mean, well, and that's the

00:09:55.200 way the world has always worked. The way the world has always worked is that the Chinese will do 1.00

00:09:58.820 what's in the best interest of China. The Russians will do what's in the best interest of Russia. 0.82

00:10:02.900 You know, the Chileans are going to do what's in the best interest of Chile and the United States

00:10:06.320 needs to do what's in the best interest of the United States.

00:10:09.020 Where our interests align,

00:10:10.780 that's where you have partnerships and alliances.

00:10:12.880 Where our differences are not aligned,

00:10:15.400 that is where the job of diplomacy is to prevent conflict

00:10:18.260 while still furthering our national interest

00:10:20.500 and understanding they're going to further theirs.

00:10:22.700 And that's been lost.

00:10:23.880 And I think that was lost at the end of the Cold War

00:10:25.760 because we were the only power in the world.

00:10:27.380 And so we assume this responsibility

00:10:28.960 of sort of becoming the global government in many cases,

00:10:32.580 trying to solve every problem.

00:10:34.080 And there are terrible things happening in the world.

00:10:35.940 There are.

00:10:36.320 and then there are things that are terrible

00:10:38.700 that impact our national interest directly

00:10:41.180 and we need to prioritize those again.

00:10:43.760 So it's not normal for the world

00:10:45.700 to simply have a unipolar power.

00:10:47.980 That was an anomaly.

00:10:49.440 It was the product of the end of the Cold War

00:10:51.140 but eventually you were going to reach back to a point

00:10:53.500 where you had a multi-polar world,

00:10:55.580 multi-great powers in different parts of the planet. 0.98

00:10:59.120 We face that now with China

00:11:00.280 and to some extent Russia 0.98

00:11:02.320 and then you have rogue states like Iran

00:11:04.440 and North Korea you have to deal with.

00:11:05.840 So now more than ever, we need to remember that foreign policy should always be about furthering the national interest of the United States and doing so to the extent possible, avoiding war and armed conflict, which we have seen two times in the last century be very costly.

00:11:21.980 you know they're celebrating the 80th anniversary this year of the end of the second world war you

00:11:27.460 know that that i think if you look at the scale and scope of destruction and loss of life that

00:11:33.520 occurred it would be far worse if we had a global conflict now and life on the planet and it sounds

00:11:38.900 like hyperbole but that's that you have multiple countries now who have the capability to end

00:11:43.220 life on earth and so we need to really work hard to avoid armed conflict as much as possible but

00:11:50.220 never at the expense of our national interest. So that's the tricky balance. So I think returning

00:11:53.760 us to that, now you can have a framework by which you analyze not just diplomacy, but foreign aid

00:11:59.420 and who we line up with and the return of pragmatism. And that's not an abandonment

00:12:05.080 of our principles. I'm not a fan or a giddy supporter of some horrifying human rights

00:12:10.080 violator somewhere in the world. By the same token, diplomacy has always required us and

00:12:15.780 foreign policy has always required us to work in the national interest, sometimes in cooperation

00:12:21.440 with people who we wouldn't invite over for dinner or people who we wouldn't necessarily

00:12:25.740 ever want to be led by. And so that's a balance, but it's the sort of pragmatic and mature balance

00:12:30.940 we have to have in foreign policy. How do you think we did in the last administration? Because

00:12:36.200 Jake Sullivan, former national security advisor, now former, under Joe Biden said, our alliances

00:12:41.040 are now stronger as they left office our adversaries and our competitors are weaker

00:12:45.360 russia's weaker iran's weaker china's weaker and all the while we kept america out of wars

00:12:50.380 what's your response to that well a couple points the first is and we're looking forward and moving

00:12:54.340 forward but we have to analyze where we stand and what the world that we inherited and i would

00:12:58.020 disagree with that assessment i think it really begins because the biden administration from my

00:13:01.920 view had internal fractures between state department and the national security council

00:13:05.960 between different elements of their party uh you saw that come to fruition for example with

00:13:10.760 our position on israel where you had a group that you know wanted to head in a different direction

00:13:15.040 that's really a fracture within the democratic party as well if you look around the world i

00:13:19.600 would say that um in many cases our adversaries are stronger than they've ever been and became

00:13:25.180 stronger over the last four years certainly russia does not consider itself weaker than it were four

00:13:30.080 years ago they now control territory they didn't have when donald trump left office i think if you

00:13:34.880 look at the middle east we had the outbreak of a of a war that can that's been incredibly costly 0.92

00:13:39.680 indivisive it started on october 7th when these uh savages came across and committed these 0.71

00:13:44.680 atrocities they have a war in europe as well uh in ukraine as i mentioned a moment ago so we had 0.84

00:13:50.620 the and i think really one of the linchpins that sort of triggered all of that was that chaotic

00:13:55.020 withdrawal from afghanistan i think that sent a very clear signal to someone like vladimir putin

00:14:00.140 that america was actually in decline or distracted we can move and he did i think you see it in the

00:14:06.740 Indo-Pacific, where every day, it's not just Taiwan, it's the Philippines, are being aggressively

00:14:11.680 challenged by the Chinese militarily, where coercion is spreading throughout the world.

00:14:15.980 The Chinese are using coercive tactics, not just in their near abroad, but in other parts of the

00:14:21.160 world as well. So I don't agree with that assessment. I think we have a lot of work to do.

00:14:26.760 And I'm going to tell you, and this is something that's not often appreciated enough,

00:14:30.440 countries will openly complain about the U.S. being very firm and being engaged in these things

00:14:36.260 in a very firm way, but privately, in many cases, they welcome it. They welcome U.S. engagement.

00:14:41.320 They want clarity in our foreign policy, and then they want us to take action to be reliable.

00:14:47.280 And I know of no president, certainly in modern American history, who's more clear than Donald

00:14:51.620 Trump, and I know of no one who's more action-oriented than President Trump. And so that's

00:14:56.000 what the State Department's going to reflect in how we proceed. I'm just wondering, as I listen

00:14:59.960 to you, whether you think Joe Biden's mental infirmity, which we all witnessed, especially

00:15:04.980 during his last year in office cost us anything with these adversaries yeah look our both adversaries

00:15:11.980 and allies analyze everything just as we do right we would watch foreign leaders and how they behave

00:15:16.880 and make decisions upon that and there's no doubt that foreign adversaries are going to look at

00:15:21.500 how our leaders not just presidents but anybody else react and make assumptions on the basis of

00:15:27.180 it and sometimes uh you know they're look the china's perception of america this is china's

00:15:32.400 perception of the world china's perception of the world is that they are in a they are inevitably

00:15:36.980 going to be the world's greatest power by 2035 2050 whatever date they've set in their mind 0.97

00:15:41.960 they believe that they're on an irreversible rise and we are an inevitable decline that the west and

00:15:47.560 at large but the u.s and specific is a tired spent former great power in inevitable decline

00:15:54.780 and they believe that foreign policy is about managing our decline and their rise and they

00:15:58.940 want nothing to interrupt it. That's how they view the West writ large and the United States

00:16:05.180 in particular. And so anytime our leaders sort of personify their vision of our problems,

00:16:12.220 it only further cements that belief that they have and frankly invites them to do things that

00:16:16.900 perhaps they wouldn't do if they have a different calculus of us. And by that logic, we got safer

00:16:21.480 the day Trump was inaugurated. There's no doubt. I've seen it. I mean, I'm telling you that

00:16:24.820 But if you look at what happened with Colombia, generally speaking, if a leader had said, I'm going to turn back these planes, I'm not going to take them, we would have sent a note, a demarche to call it, complaining about it.

00:16:35.900 And we would have then had a high-level outreach back and forth, and we would have figured this out, and it would have taken six weeks or what have you.

00:16:41.540 In this particular case, we presented President Trump with options.

00:16:45.780 He immediately took action, and the back channels existed.

00:16:49.440 There was a lot of conversation with other figures in the Colombian government who had agreed to this.

00:16:54.400 And we're trying to figure out a path to get us right.

00:16:56.240 But it didn't take six weeks or six months.

00:16:58.320 It took six hours.

00:16:59.440 Were they shocked when Trump sent out his tweet?

00:17:03.620 Shocked?

00:17:04.480 No, I don't think they were shocked.

00:17:06.060 I think it reaffirmed what they believe about him.

00:17:08.120 And that is that this is not a traditional sort of orthodox American president who is going to be tangled up by interagency impediments in our government.

00:17:21.380 This is someone who's action-oriented and is actually going to do what he says.

00:17:25.260 So, yeah, I mean, I don't think they were shocked.

00:17:28.320 I think it was a good reminder.

00:17:30.460 And, look, I want to be clear.

00:17:31.580 Most of the people in the Colombian government are friendly to the United States.

00:17:35.080 They were horrified by what was happening.

00:17:36.940 I mean, there were leaders of their congressional branch over there that were putting messages on X like, this is crazy. 0.99

00:17:43.240 Our president's a nutcase. 0.88

00:17:44.520 I mean, they were writing that. 0.99

00:17:45.360 That's their internal politics.

00:17:46.420 But I think it reaffirms what a lot of leaders believe about America under Donald Trump,

00:17:51.480 and that is we are led by someone who is not very mysterious.

00:17:55.120 He's going to tell you what he's going to do, and he'll actually do it.

00:17:57.560 And I think foreign policy works a lot better when you're led by someone like that.

00:18:01.040 Now, does that make your job easier then?

00:18:03.740 Easier, no doubt.

00:18:04.540 So you can just say, hey, look, the boss has said exactly how he feels. Believe him.

00:18:07.860 Yeah, I mean, I think oftentimes people think there's posturing going on.

00:18:10.700 Well, they don't really mean this, or they're not really going to do it.

00:18:13.120 I think in my particular case, I don't have to make that argument, right?

00:18:16.120 I mean, I think they understand it.

00:18:18.220 I think it's also a lot of pragmatism.

00:18:19.780 Every conversation I've had with foreign leaders, to the extent it's been conflictive or that we've had areas of conflict to talk about,

00:18:25.660 I've been very clear in that is, look, I expect you to do what you're doing because you're acting in your national interest.

00:18:31.260 And I know you've gotten used to a foreign policy in which you act in the national interest of your country,

00:18:36.080 and we sort of act in the interest of the globe or the global order.

00:18:41.040 But we're led by a different kind of person now.

00:18:43.540 And under President Trump, we're going to do what you do.

00:18:46.120 And one of the terms that President Trump loves is reciprocity.

00:18:49.620 And it's very simple, but I think people would understand it.

00:18:52.420 If you charge us a 50% tariff for an American product to enter your country,

00:18:56.560 we should charge you a 50% tariff here.

00:19:00.020 Maybe 55.

00:19:01.320 You know, President Trump likes to have leverage, too.

00:19:04.020 And who would not argue that that's not fair?

00:19:07.160 And how can you argue against it?

00:19:08.900 But that's been our policy in many cases.

00:19:11.100 In country after country around the world, we have no access to their markets.

00:19:14.520 but their products have open and free access to ours.

00:19:17.580 How can that continue?

00:19:18.920 That's absurd.

00:19:20.200 I think anybody who has common sense would argue that.

00:19:23.180 Frankly, I think a lot of these leaders have been wondering

00:19:25.080 why it took us so long to figure that out.

00:19:26.920 But under President Trump, they know we have.

00:19:29.040 The New York Times said,

00:19:31.260 okay, you guys got away with this with Colombia, 0.51

00:19:34.140 but you're not going to be able to pull that trick with Russia,

00:19:37.500 with China, with Iran.

00:19:39.180 If you try to sort of bully these stronger nations in this way,

00:19:42.580 it's not going to go very well.

00:19:43.960 Is that a fair point?

00:19:44.560 Well, we're not interested in bullying anybody.

00:19:46.100 And we don't feel like we bullied Colombia.

00:19:47.720 We feel like we had a deal.

00:19:48.980 Colombia signed a deal.

00:19:50.140 They signed a piece of paper that said, yes, send us these airplanes.

00:19:52.700 And then halfway into the flight, they broke it.

00:19:54.700 And so our answer was, well, now we flew these planes.

00:19:57.740 We had to bring them back to the United States.

00:20:00.120 So now you're going to come pick them up.

00:20:01.640 Why are we going to pay for those flights?

00:20:02.880 Because you canceled them.

00:20:03.760 It's not bullying.

00:20:04.560 It's they broke a contract that we had made with them.

00:20:07.480 Obviously, look, China has nuclear weapons.

00:20:09.220 They're tough people.

00:20:09.940 There's no doubt about it.

00:20:10.780 They're tough people.

00:20:11.520 They have nuclear weapons.

00:20:12.260 They're a great power with a large economy.

00:20:14.380 They're going to be a global power, but it can't come at our expense.

00:20:17.960 And so ultimately, when you're dealing with great powers like China, it's going to be at the highest levels of their president and ours, their premier and ours and our president.

00:20:26.420 And that interaction will happen in the case of Russia, the same.

00:20:29.080 Obviously, there's going to be whatever happens with Russia will be a Putin-Trump dynamic.

00:20:33.940 But I think most certainly, sure.

00:20:35.880 I mean, the world is, the way you treat, not the way you treat countries, but the way you approach a nation has to be based on the strategic balance.

00:20:44.820 But I don't view that we bullied Colombia, nor do I think these articles about, oh, they're going to turn to China, that's absurd.

00:20:50.140 That's an absurd argument.

00:20:51.560 I think the overwhelming majority of people in Colombia, a country I know very well, don't even like their president.

00:20:57.460 I mean, this guy had an election today, he would lose.

00:20:59.500 Well, he'd lose.

00:21:00.080 I mean, he's unpopular in Colombia.

00:21:01.520 I mean, that's not up to us.

00:21:02.700 People there will get to vote, and they'll decide who they want to lead them.

00:21:05.160 but I think a lot of their people in their business class are like what's this guy doing

00:21:08.640 this is absurd I mean it's normal that you would we were deporting people to Colombia

00:21:13.920 just like we deport people to every country in the world and by the way if there are illegal 0.92

00:21:17.980 American immigrants in another country we would have to accept them coming this way right so I

00:21:22.580 I don't pay a lot of it that most of the people unfortunately that opine on on the more I have 0.95

00:21:28.880 been delved into foreign policy and the more I read people who claim to know about foreign policy

00:21:33.460 the more I realize that a lot of the people we believe are experts

00:21:36.760 have no idea what they're talking about.

00:21:38.300 There's a large delta.

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00:22:11.000 All right, full-time thoughts.

00:22:12.460 Craig, who stood out?

00:22:13.480 Brazil's lime cheesecake started bright, didn't let up.

00:22:15.980 Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was the standout in the box.

00:22:19.060 But if we're talking decadent performance, that's all France.

00:22:21.880 Chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes.

00:22:24.280 Canadian fireworks really showed up big, too.

00:22:26.260 And Mexico's caramel churro ice cap.

00:22:28.640 Gave me chills.

00:22:29.780 We are, of course, talking about Tim's taste of the globe lineup.

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00:22:41.200 You mentioned China.

00:22:42.500 Did you recently have a call with the foreign minister?

00:22:46.580 And there was a report that you received a sort of warning that you needed to basically watch yourself.

00:22:51.300 Yeah, somebody told me that.

00:22:52.120 And that's two things that the game that they play.

00:22:54.340 Number one is they put out an English translation and they put out a Chinese translation and they don't always overlap.

00:22:59.560 The call was very straightforward.

00:23:00.680 And I basically said, you're acting in the best interest of China. 0.77

00:23:03.280 We're going to act in the best interest of America.

00:23:05.300 We're two great powers.

00:23:07.020 And in areas where we can work together, there's probably no problem in the world we couldn't solve working together.

00:23:12.340 In areas where we have disagreements, we have a responsibility to manage it so it doesn't escalate into something catastrophic.

00:23:18.380 But be clear that we're going to do these things.

00:23:20.920 I did not, at least the translator that was on the call, did not say anything to me that I felt was over the top.

00:23:27.220 But then they put out these games.

00:23:28.360 They like to play these games.

00:23:29.280 They put out these translations where it says one thing in English and then it's translated in a different, they use a different term in Mandarin.

00:23:35.900 So he was warned not to overstep himself.

00:23:38.120 They never said that.

00:23:38.980 And if they had, I would have told them, well, I would say the same to you.

00:23:42.000 Don't overstep either.

00:23:43.180 And but that didn't happen, at least not on the call, or at least maybe their interpreter didn't want to interpret it that way.

00:23:48.220 But that was not the readout we got. 0.58

00:23:49.920 But it's it's silly and irrespective and irrelevant.

00:23:52.840 What really matters is the decisions we make moving forward.

00:23:55.920 And, you know, China wants to be the most powerful country in the world, 0.93

00:23:58.300 and they want to do so at our expense. 0.94

00:24:00.140 And that's not in our national interest.

00:24:01.740 And we're going to address it.

00:24:02.920 We don't want to war over it, but we're going to address it.

00:24:06.500 Well, that brings us, and we have more on China,

00:24:08.680 but that brings us to Panama, where you're about to go.

00:24:11.440 And China's obviously playing a role down there

00:24:13.560 and is one of the reasons why Trump has been saying,

00:24:15.380 President Trump has been saying, we want the canal back.

00:24:17.600 We never intended to give it to the Chinese.

00:24:20.200 That was never the game plan.

00:24:22.180 They don't technically control the Panama Canal,

00:24:25.460 But they do have interest down there.

00:24:26.980 Can you explain it so people can understand it?

00:24:28.100 Yeah, so they're all over Panama.

00:24:29.700 A few years ago, Panama made a decision that they were going to de-recognize Taiwan and align with Beijing.

00:24:36.540 And with that came all sorts of money that was provided to the then president's administration for projects and things of that nature, but also Chinese investment.

00:24:46.420 And one of the main investments they have is in these two port facilities on both sides of the canal and all kinds of other infrastructure, cranes and the like.

00:24:55.280 And so people will argue, well, that's not China, that's a company based in Hong Kong.

00:25:00.200 Well, a company based in Hong Kong is the government of China.

00:25:02.980 You are not a company in China if the Chinese government doesn't control you.

00:25:06.740 It's similar to the argument about ByteDance and TikTok, which is every company that operates from China or Hong Kong, which is controlled by China, more than ever controlled by China, it's no longer autonomous.

00:25:20.160 They have to do whatever the government tells them.

00:25:22.200 And if the government of China in a conflict tells them, shut down the Panama Canal, they will have to.

00:25:26.860 And in fact, I have zero doubt that they have contingency planning to do so.

00:25:30.540 That is a direct threat.

00:25:32.020 So it's a technicality, but in reality, if China wanted to obstruct traffic in the Panama Canal, they could. 0.72

00:25:39.420 That's a fact.

00:25:40.120 And it's my view that's a violation of the treaty agreement.

00:25:42.640 And that's what President Trump is raising.

00:25:44.180 And we're going to address that topic.

00:25:45.680 It's one of deep concern.

00:25:46.980 That dynamic cannot continue.

00:25:48.700 Not simply because we built it at great cost in lives and treasure.

00:25:52.200 but because it is contrary to our national interest.

00:25:56.380 It is not in the national interest of the United States

00:25:58.320 to have a canal we paid for and we built

00:26:01.240 used as a leverage and a weapon against us.

00:26:04.620 That can't happen.

00:26:05.580 So what's the solution?

00:26:07.300 Well, that's what we're going to have to talk about.

00:26:08.800 And I think the president's putting pretty clear

00:26:10.260 he wants to administer the canal again.

00:26:12.400 Obviously, the Panamanians are not big fans of that idea.

00:26:15.180 But that message has been brought very clear.

00:26:17.500 And there are a lot of other areas

00:26:18.680 we can work very closely with Panama on.

00:26:20.480 I mean, their government generally is pro-American on a number of fronts.

00:26:24.560 But this is a core national interest for us.

00:26:26.660 We can work together on a lot of things, and there are a lot of things we can work with them on that are very positive on migration.

00:26:31.420 And they can be very helpful on all sorts of things.

00:26:33.720 And I hope we'll get resolution to those very soon.

00:26:36.260 But that does not in any way replace the core reality that the Panama Canal, we cannot allow any foreign power, particularly China, to hold that kind of potential control over that they do.

00:26:48.440 That just can't continue.

00:26:49.280 What could they do? I mean, are they these, you know, Chinese control or Chinese businesses along the canal, very large ones that could easily be turned into military facilities? Do they have to get rid of them? Do they have to, like, what are the kinds of things we could ask for that would satisfy us? 0.91

00:27:03.200 But Hong Kong-based companies having control over the entry and exit points of the canal is completely unacceptable.

00:27:09.920 That cannot continue because if there is a conflict and China tells them, do everything you can to obstruct the canal so that the U.S. can't engage in trade and commerce,

00:27:19.340 so that the U.S. military and naval fleet cannot get to the Indo-Pacific fast enough, they would have to do it.

00:27:25.380 They would have to do it, and they would do it, and now we have a major problem on our hands.

00:27:29.300 That's number one. Number two, we have to talk about the fact that we built this thing. We paid

00:27:33.920 for it. Thousands of people died doing this, Americans. And somehow our naval vessels who

00:27:40.360 go through there and American shipping that goes through there pays rates, some cases higher than

00:27:45.720 other countries are paying. For example, a vessel from China, that's also not acceptable.

00:27:52.060 It was a terrible deal when it was made. It should never have been allowed. They're going

00:27:55.280 to tell you that it's set by an independent administrative entity and not the government

00:27:59.920 that's their internal problem they'll have to figure that out but we should not be in a position

00:28:04.120 of having to pay more than other countries in fact we should be getting a discount or maybe for free

00:28:08.180 because we paid for the thing there too like you mentioned with colombia is there a risk if we play 1.00

00:28:13.220 too hardball uh we drive them into the arms of the chinese well i would argue that the canal's 1.00

00:28:19.420 already in the arms of the chinese so i mean that's one aspect i would say and we can't operate 0.99

00:28:24.260 that way like we can't operate in the world saying well we can't defend our national interest because 0.99

00:28:28.640 if not these countries will turn to china against us i mean we wouldn't allow that to happen it would 0.75

00:28:34.600 be against our national interest so but that said i hope we don't get to that point right we have a

00:28:39.880 on so many topics have a very good working relationship with panama and with their

00:28:44.560 government and i want that to continue but we have a core national interest that's at stake

00:28:48.560 they should understand that and i think that they they will understand that and it needs to be

00:28:53.320 addressed and we'll do that we'll do it in the right form we'll do it appropriately i'm not here

00:28:57.200 to them we're not here to embarrass anyone or cause internal friction or problems for them 0.61

00:29:01.040 but i can assure you if it was the other way around and that was a canal that the chinese 1.00

00:29:05.360 had built they would be very forceful about it so we can no longer operate in the world with two

00:29:10.160 hands tied behind our back people need to understand that panama is not exactly about 0.77

00:29:13.560 panama it's about the chinese which you've been jumping up and down about for a while

00:29:17.600 warning that people may not realize just how grave the threat is and you said something i 0.71

00:29:23.080 think it was at your confirmation hearing to the effect of if China gets what it wants in 10 years

00:29:28.760 or so, life could look very different. Like it could be dramatic for us, for America. So I mean

00:29:33.700 they can today control, I mean we love our technology and we need it for all kinds of

00:29:37.580 advances. All of that depends on critical minerals at the end of the day, ranging aluminum, cobalt,

00:29:43.640 you name it. They have gone around the world buying up mining rights and they control not

00:29:48.100 just the mining of it, but the refining and the production of it and the use of it for

00:29:53.000 industrial purposes. So I remember during COVID, everybody was freaking out because we couldn't

00:29:58.060 get the masks because they were all made in China. And then we couldn't get this because 1.00

00:30:01.380 they were all made in China. We had lost and given away our industrial capacity. This is even 0.99

00:30:05.320 graver. This is the rare earth minerals. This is the raw materials necessary for some of the things

00:30:11.480 that go into our most advanced technologies in the defense realm and in medicine. 80-something

00:30:17.920 percent of the active ingredients in generic pharmaceuticals in the United States are made

00:30:22.340 in China. We can't make them. So if they decide we're going to cut you off from these things, 0.99

00:30:26.760 they could, we'd be in a lot of trouble because we gave away our industrial capacity on those

00:30:30.460 things. That can't continue. That's a vulnerability that we face and they will use it as leverage.

00:30:34.980 In fact, they are already using it as leverage. For the first time ever, they have actually

00:30:39.060 imposed export controls on critical minerals to damage our national security, but ultimately

00:30:47.780 are in our technological capacity as well so it ranges topics but ultimately if china controls 0.63

00:30:54.280 the means of production for both raw material and and and industry then we're they have total

00:31:00.080 leverage on us economically and that's the world we're headed to and i was wrong maybe not in 10

00:31:03.760 years maybe in five so i mean it's a dicey situation trump president trump knows all this

00:31:09.480 yes um and yet one of the top chinese leaders attended his inauguration he understands that

00:31:14.020 There's it has to be played very carefully. 0.91

00:31:15.960 We don't want to make an open hot war enemy out of them.

00:31:19.200 But we've been passive for too long.

00:31:21.620 Yeah.

00:31:22.260 First of all, one of the interesting things about President Trump is he's incredibly accessible.

00:31:26.980 People don't believe this.

00:31:27.860 But I mean, if you're a if you're a rank and file, not even leadership member of Congress and you call the president of the United States, the chances are you're going to get a call back and you're going to get a call back from him.

00:31:38.540 And you might get a call back that very day, maybe within an hour or two.

00:31:41.540 he's incredibly accessible to both americans and also to foreign leaders his policies generally

00:31:46.640 have been i'll meet with any world leader you know i'll engage with any world leader that doesn't

00:31:50.640 mean just because you're meeting with him you're giving anything away but he's willing to engage 0.83

00:31:54.580 in the case of china there's two things i've just described one which is the grave threat that they 0.89

00:31:59.120 pose to our national interests and the other is the mature realization that no matter what happens 1.00

00:32:03.920 china is going to be a rich and powerful country we are going to have to deal with them in fact 0.99

00:32:08.300 And I said this in my call with their foreign minister, but I've said this publicly, the history of the 21st century will largely be about what happened between the U.S. and China. 1.00

00:32:19.240 So for us to pretend that somehow we're not going to engage with them is absurd.

00:32:23.180 Now, we should engage on our national interests.

00:32:26.520 That is, engagement and concessions are two different things. 0.61

00:32:29.420 What's been horrifying is that for 25 or 30 years, we've treated China as a developing country, and we allowed them to continue to do things that were unfair. 0.97

00:32:37.400 We said, go ahead, let them cheat on trade, let them steal our technology, because when they get rich, they'll become just like us. 0.78

00:32:43.820 They became rich, they did not become like us, and now they want to continue to have these unfair benefits.

00:32:49.420 That has to stop.

00:32:50.360 And they built up their military.

00:32:51.880 Their military, their industrial capacity, but all over the world, their control of critical minerals.

00:32:57.800 Again, I go back to them because people don't think about it.

00:32:58.840 Buying up land in the United States.

00:33:00.180 Buying up farming land in the United States in particular as well, because they need to produce food and they want to be able to control that.

00:33:05.500 They're doing it because it's in their national interest.

00:33:07.700 They are doing, frankly, what I would do,

00:33:09.780 well, maybe not the human rights violations,

00:33:11.580 but they are doing what anyone would do

00:33:13.160 if they were the leader of China.

00:33:14.520 They are acting in China's best interests.

00:33:16.520 What's been missing is American policy

00:33:18.540 that acts in our best interest,

00:33:20.100 and that needs to return.

00:33:21.540 How does Greenland fit into all of this?

00:33:23.740 Well, the Arctic, which has gotten very little attention,

00:33:26.820 but the Arctic circle and the Arctic region

00:33:28.920 is going to become critical for shipping lanes,

00:33:30.660 for how do you get some of this energy

00:33:31.920 that's going to be produced under President Trump?

00:33:34.920 these energies rely on shipping lanes the arctic is some of the most valuable shipping lanes in

00:33:39.700 the world as some of the ice is melting there's become more and more navigable we need to be able

00:33:44.840 to defend that so if you project what the chinese have done it is just a matter of time before because 0.99

00:33:49.780 they are not an arctic power they do not have an arctic presence so they need to be able to have 0.96

00:33:53.540 somewhere that they can stage from and it is completely realistic to believe that the chinese

00:33:58.860 will eventually maybe even in the short term try to do in greenland what they have done at the

00:34:04.200 Panama Canal and in other places. And that is install facilities that give them access to the

00:34:08.580 Arctic with the cover of a Chinese company, but that in reality serve a dual purpose, that in a

00:34:14.000 moment of conflict, they could send naval vessels to that facility and operate from there. And that

00:34:20.000 is completely unacceptable to the national security of the world and to the United, to the security of

00:34:24.880 the world and the national security of the United States. So the question becomes, if the Chinese 1.00

00:34:29.080 begin to threaten Greenland, do we really trust that that is not a place where those deals are 0.97

00:34:33.460 going to be made do we really trust that that is not a place where they would not intervene

00:34:37.200 you don't think denmark would stop them i think that's been the president's point and that is

00:34:42.380 that denmark can't stop them they would rely on the united states to do so and so his point is

00:34:47.160 if the united states is on the hook to provide as we are now we have a defense agreement with them

00:34:51.680 to protect greenland if it comes under assault if we're already on the hook for having to do that

00:34:56.720 then what we might as well have more control over what happens there and so i know it's a delicate

00:35:01.700 topic for for denmark but it's again a national interest item for the united states so there was

00:35:07.280 a con a conference call between president trump and the danish prime minister apparently didn't

00:35:13.220 go very well um reportedly involved some sort of a meltdown on the prime minister's part

00:35:19.460 they don't want to give it up so what does that what options does that leave us because

00:35:25.420 President Trump did not rule out economic or potentially military use.

00:35:31.300 Well, I think President Trump, what he has said publicly is he wants to buy it.

00:35:35.060 He wants to pay for it.

00:35:36.460 And how we worked on something like that, how something like that is approached,

00:35:40.920 obviously is probably done better in the appropriate forms.

00:35:44.360 A lot of the stuff is done publicly, and it's not helpful because it puts the other side in a tough spot domestically.

00:35:49.220 So those conversations are going to happen.

00:35:51.060 But this is not a joke.

00:35:52.480 Like what he is saying is pretty accurate.

00:35:54.800 People haven't talked about it for years.

00:35:56.440 We do have, this is not about acquiring land for the purpose of acquiring land.

00:36:00.000 This is in our national interest and it needs to be solved.

00:36:02.880 President Trump's put out there what he intends to do, which is to purchase it.

00:36:06.760 I wasn't privy to that phone call, but I imagine the phone call went the way a lot of these phone calls go.

00:36:11.180 And that is, he just speaks bluntly and frankly with people.

00:36:13.960 And ultimately, I think diplomacy in many cases works better when you're straightforward as opposed to using platitudes and language that translates to nothing.

00:36:23.320 So when President Trump said he might use economic or military coercion, what does that mean?

00:36:29.400 Well, I don't remember him saying military coercion.

00:36:32.220 He did.

00:36:32.760 He was asked, you know, what would you rule out?

00:36:35.040 Would you rule it out?

00:36:35.800 Right.

00:36:36.400 I don't think he's in the – listen, he also brings to this –

00:36:39.500 He said, no, I won't rule it out.

00:36:41.320 Because he brings to this, this is a businessman who's involved in politics, not a politician involved in politics.

00:36:48.600 So he approaches these issues from a transactional business point of view.

00:36:52.640 so he is not going to begin what he views as a negotiation or a conversation by taking

00:36:57.980 any leverage off the table okay and that's a that's a tactic that's used all the time in

00:37:02.640 business it's being applied to foreign policy and i think to great effect in the first term

00:37:07.200 you look at the abraham accords and the democrats mocked the abraham accords when they were made

00:37:11.420 and then by the end of the biden administration they became the linchpin of a lot of what we're

00:37:16.340 hoping to build on that never would have happened had there not been a transactional approach you

00:37:20.480 look at what his envoy to the Middle East, Steve Woodcoff, has achieved, the Biden administration

00:37:24.660 asked Woodcoff, they asked for him to be involved in these conversations. He has brought a businessman's

00:37:29.960 approach to a very delicate and intractable foreign policy challenge and delivered a ceasefire that

00:37:36.560 obviously is tenuous and has long-term challenges to it. But there are hostages being released every

00:37:41.260 day. That didn't happen for over a year and a half until he became involved. And that's the

00:37:45.260 president's envoy and very close friend who's brought the same kind of business approach to

00:37:49.580 some of these challenges. So let's look forward four years. Does the U.S. own Greenland?

00:37:55.660 We'll see. I mean, obviously, that's the president's priority, and he has made that

00:37:58.700 point. I think that what I can tell you about four years without getting into specifics,

00:38:02.220 because I don't, you know, I'm not, we're not in a position yet to discuss exactly how we'll

00:38:06.800 proceed tactically. What I think you can rest assured of is that four years from now,

00:38:11.120 our interest in the Arctic will be more secure. Our interest in the Panama Canal will be more

00:38:15.680 secure, our partnerships in the Western Hemisphere will be stronger. We need to understand a lot of

00:38:21.440 these countries in Central America, they're not destination sites. They are countries that

00:38:25.940 come through and that these human trafficking rings run people through. It creates tremendous

00:38:32.320 instability for these countries at a tremendous cost as well. They would welcome help in stopping

00:38:37.740 that migration corridor from continuing because it's destabilizing their countries. So I think 1.00

00:38:42.040 we're going to have a Western Hemisphere that's more secure in our national interest in all

00:38:45.540 parts of the world, that's the goal, are going to be more secure from the Arctic to Central America

00:38:49.580 to even Africa, and certainly the Indo-Pacific.

00:38:56.780 Oh boy, this laundry's piling up. What? Did you say something? Yeah, it's messy in here. Okay.

00:39:04.460 At least tell me fold. Yeah, I don't think so. I need less of you. And lose all this, babe?

00:39:11.820 Seriously, again with this?

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00:39:26.480 All right, full-time thoughts. Craig, who stood out?

00:39:28.960 Brazil's lime cheesecake started great, didn't let up.

00:39:31.500 Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was the standout in the box.

00:39:34.460 But if we're talking decadent performance, that's all France.

00:39:37.400 Chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes.

00:39:39.820 Canadian fireworks really showed up big, too.

00:39:41.800 And Mexico's caramel churro ice cap gave me chills.

00:39:45.300 We are, of course, talking about Tim's taste of the globe lineup.

00:39:48.040 New globally-inspired Timbits and ice cap flavors available at Tim Hortons for a limited time.

00:39:52.700 Pick some up today, and while you're at it, check out Footy Prime Daily.

00:39:56.260 We talked about Colombia.

00:39:57.500 That's part of President Trump's effort to shore up our borders 0.97

00:40:00.520 and get rid of the illegal aliens who came under Joe Biden.

00:40:05.200 Part of that's going to include, yes, Canada.

00:40:07.900 He's said that as well.

00:40:08.800 but also, obviously, Mexico.

00:40:10.580 And President Trump is threatening to slap tariffs on both of them

00:40:14.140 if they don't get in line and start doing some of the things

00:40:16.980 that we want them to do as soon as this Saturday.

00:40:20.280 They're jumping up and down saying,

00:40:21.880 we want to cooperate, let's work diplomatically

00:40:23.840 before you slap tariffs on us.

00:40:26.300 Where do you stand on that?

00:40:27.260 Well, we've had conversations with Mexican government officials.

00:40:29.660 I met yesterday with the foreign minister of Canada.

00:40:32.340 I think there are two topics, and they have to be separated,

00:40:34.720 but they're interrelated.

00:40:35.580 The first is the migration, particularly with Mexico.

00:40:37.640 There are parts of Mexico, many parts of Mexico, in which the government doesn't control those areas.

00:40:43.880 They're controlled by drug cartels.

00:40:45.160 They are the most powerful force on the ground.

00:40:47.280 And they are plowing into the United States. 0.99

00:40:49.860 They're facilitating illegal migration.

00:40:51.860 But they are also bringing in fentanyl and deadly drugs to our country.

00:40:55.200 That's a national security threat, and that needs to stop.

00:40:58.460 So we expect their cooperation on that because they should.

00:41:01.100 If it was the other way around, they would expect that as well.

00:41:03.520 And that needs to be addressed.

00:41:04.640 similar secondarily to that is the president feels that we have a trade on imbalance and

00:41:09.920 unfairness with mexico on a number of products including agricultural products that are dumped 0.67

00:41:14.820 on our markets but also the chinese what the chinese are now doing is they're creating these 0.95

00:41:18.900 front companies they're investing in mexican manufacturing and then backdooring using the

00:41:23.440 usmca the free trade agreement to get chinese goods into america and so it creates this trade

00:41:28.400 imbalance and that needs to be confronted so when the president talks about tariffs he talks about

00:41:32.520 it on two fronts as obviously a leverage and pressure point when it comes to cooperation on

00:41:38.260 migration but separate from that it's also related to unfairness in our trade relationship

00:41:43.000 uh with the canadians obviously the border is one of the biggest if not the biggest border land 0.93

00:41:47.540 border in the world uh we share common interests there i think they don't want to see their country

00:41:51.700 filled with fentanyl either um i think they if i were them i'd be concerned that with the crackdown

00:41:56.920 on illegal immigration in the united states people would flee north into canada so you would think

00:42:02.100 we'd be able to work with them very cooperatively on border security. And then there's a broader

00:42:06.060 trade and balance with them that the president wants to address as well. And so that's why those

00:42:11.520 conversations are important. These are not hostile moves. Are these terrorists going to kick in on

00:42:15.320 Saturday? Well, we'll see. I mean, that's the president's decision to make. And, you know,

00:42:19.200 we'll be prepared to address it from a foreign policy perspective, whatever decision he makes

00:42:24.540 on those things. That's his decision to make, whether he makes it this weekend or a week from

00:42:28.420 now or a month from now, he clearly wants to address both illegal migration, but ultimately

00:42:33.300 also our economic interests. Who is more likely to be the 51st state, Canada or Greenland?

00:42:40.340 Well, again, look, I think that, you know, we're a long ways from that point. I think the president's

00:42:45.080 made his view on this very clear, and that is our interests in Greenland are endangered,

00:42:49.720 and that needs to be addressed, and he's willing to buy it. And our interest with Canada,

00:42:54.220 particularly, you know, I think if you go back, and I think he said this publicly,

00:42:57.180 he had a conversation with Trudeau and he asked Trudeau well what would happen if I imposed these

00:43:02.860 tariffs on you and he said well we would be done as a country we would be finished and his whole

00:43:06.800 point is well if the only way you can survive as a country is by having a trade imbalance with the

00:43:11.100 United States then maybe you should just become a state right and that was the genesis of that

00:43:15.560 conversation so um we have issues we need to address with Canada they're good friends I mean

00:43:21.660 we work with them on a lot of things we have a deep partnership with them and uh but there are

00:43:25.420 some issues we're going to need to address but what what are the risks to us because you've got

00:43:29.700 the premier of ontario saying we can't bring a knife to a gunfight here if they're going to do

00:43:34.200 this to us with these terrorists we got to fight back the same way we supply them with a bunch of

00:43:38.380 electricity let's shut it down so it can canada shut our lights off well then who would they be

00:43:43.340 selling it to where else would they send that electricity i mean it would hurt them as well

00:43:46.560 they would have no market to sell it to um and i would also argue that the united states and that

00:43:51.580 Look, I don't think Canada is a strategic threat to the United States.

00:43:56.380 I'm not comparing them to China or what have you.

00:43:58.460 But it brings to mind the point of energy independence and how critical that is.

00:44:02.280 We don't want to be in a situation, you mentioned that about Canada,

00:44:04.940 imagine if in the future the argument is not Canada is threatening that.

00:44:08.840 Well, who's threatening that is China.

00:44:10.060 Who's threatening that is Russia.

00:44:11.100 I mean, one of the great mistakes that were made is by unilaterally disarming

00:44:15.400 when it comes to energy production,

00:44:17.240 by not fully utilizing our energy resources in this country

00:44:22.000 Other countries didn't follow the same line.

00:44:24.680 For example, China today has the largest capacity of unused – they are able to process more oil than any country in the world right now.

00:44:35.760 And they build more coal plants than anybody in the world right now.

00:44:38.680 They'll talk about green energy and batteries and cars, but they are using all of the above strategy on their energy.

00:44:44.700 We've unilaterally disarmed on energy.

00:44:46.620 All they've done is continue to increase their capabilities on energy because they know you need energy to fuel all this.

00:44:52.980 AI alone was going to require an extraordinary amount of energy that the world right now can't produce to fuel it.

00:44:58.260 Whatever country has energy resources that are cost effective is going to dominate AI, which is going to dominate many, many fields.

00:45:04.100 So I think at the end of the day, it's a reminder when you talk about Canada of why energy is a national security matter

00:45:10.740 and why the U.S. must be able to have a reliable and consistent source of energy,

00:45:15.580 or we are in a lot of trouble.

00:45:17.240 Our planes won't fly, our ships won't be able to sail,

00:45:19.700 and our economy will not function without energy.

00:45:21.960 One of those issues that's become dicey within the Republican Party is NATO.

00:45:27.440 We've talked a lot about these other countries doing their fair share and doing their part,

00:45:31.120 and this is why NATO's become controversial, because there are many people who believe,

00:45:34.880 what are we doing this for?

00:45:35.880 I mean, it made sense right after World War II, but does it make sense today?

00:45:40.080 And the United States tends to be the dominant player.

00:45:42.300 The Europeans can support themselves.

00:45:43.860 They don't need the United States to be the big babysitter of the world.

00:45:47.040 And it creates more opportunities for us to get involved in foreign conflicts that we shouldn't be involved in.

00:45:52.640 To that, you say what?

00:45:53.800 Well, the president's position on NATO is the same every other president has had.

00:45:57.200 And that is that our allies, many of our allies in NATO do not do enough to provide for their own security.

00:46:02.820 Every other president has made the same complaint.

00:46:04.460 He's just actually been serious about it, and that's what he's pointing to.

00:46:07.860 And look, it's interesting, and in fairness, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia,

00:46:11.600 the closer you are to Russia, the more they're spending as a percentage of their GDP on national defense.

00:46:15.920 But then you have countries like France, okay, or you have countries like Germany.

00:46:20.240 These are big economies, powerful economies, and they don't spend as much on national security.

00:46:26.020 Now, why? Because they rely on NATO.

00:46:28.760 They say, well, we don't need to spend that much on –

00:46:30.600 Yeah, we don't need to spend as much on defense because America has soldiers here,

00:46:33.580 and they get attacked they'll be our national defense so we can instead spend all that money

00:46:38.240 on this enormous social safety net when those when you ask those kids why can't you spend more

00:46:43.160 on that on national security their argument is because it would require us to make cuts

00:46:47.560 to welfare programs to unemployment benefits to being able to retire at 59 and all these other

00:46:53.320 things that's a choice they made but why we're subsidizing that so i think if you were articulate

00:46:59.000 the president's point on nato's number one they need to do more and i do think long term there's

00:47:02.820 a conversation to be had about whether the united states needs to be at the front end of securing

00:47:08.280 the continent or as a backstop to securing the continent and if you talk to countries on the

00:47:13.260 eastern periphery the ones closest to russia all of them are building the capability to be

00:47:17.120 at the front end the poles uh the the checks you know all of these different places and if you move

00:47:22.160 further west to the richest economies germany france they don't spain they don't spend enough

00:47:27.540 on national security they're relying on us to be the front stop and that that's not an alliance

00:47:32.340 That's a dependence.

00:47:33.760 And we don't want that.

00:47:34.500 We want NATO.

00:47:35.240 We want a NATO in which we have strong and capable allies.

00:47:39.220 You know, Finland's a very capable ally.

00:47:40.780 They make weapons.

00:47:42.240 They bring something to the table. 0.62

00:47:44.540 We need more countries like that to behave in that manner in the alliance. 1.00

00:47:48.740 And then it'll be a stronger alliance.

00:47:50.280 And it'll be able to work cooperatively, not just in Europe, but in other challenges we face around the world.

00:47:55.220 Hopefully even the Indo-Pacific, potentially.

00:47:57.360 Ukraine's another issue that's got the party divided.

00:47:59.840 You know, you've got a lot, I'm sticking with the Republicans now because there's a whole other debate with the other side of the aisle, but who say, no, you know, Putin's a bad actor, Russia's a growing threat, and we're doing the right thing by backing Ukraine.

00:48:12.780 And I would say the majority of Republicans now are against that viewpoint and think we've lost, we've spent too much.

00:48:18.920 It's any place from $105 billion to $187 billion, and they've lost.

00:48:24.120 We just have to be realistic about the fact that Ukraine has lost.

00:48:27.420 It's not going to gain back any of this ground, and we need a negotiated settlement now

00:48:30.760 before we keep throwing good money after bad, and we can't afford it.

00:48:34.220 We've got Americans who are suffering now.

00:48:35.660 I think that's the majority view, even on the Republican side now.

00:48:38.420 It also happens to be the reality on the ground.

00:48:40.580 First, let me say this.

00:48:42.500 We think what Putin did was terrible, invading a country, the atrocities he's committed.

00:48:46.580 He did horrible things.

00:48:48.180 But what the dishonesty that has existed is that we somehow led people to believe 0.97

00:48:52.880 that ukraine would be able not just to defeat russia but you know destroy them push them all 0.74

00:48:57.860 the way back to what the world looked like in 2012 or 2014 before the russians took crimea and the 0.62

00:49:04.240 like and in the result what they've been asking for the last year and a half is to fund a stalemate

00:49:08.780 a protracted stalemate in which human suffering continues meanwhile ukraine is being set back 100

00:49:14.400 years their energy grid is being wiped out i mean that someone's gonna have to pay for all this

00:49:17.880 reconstruction after the fact um and you know how many ukrainians have left ukraine living in other

00:49:22.540 countries now they may never return i mean that's their future and it's endangered in that regard

00:49:26.220 so the president's point of view is this is a protracted conflict and it needs to end now it

00:49:30.680 needs to enter a negotiation in any negotiation both sides are going to have to give something up

00:49:35.080 i'm not going to pre-negotiate that i mean that's going to be the work of hard diplomacy which is

00:49:40.220 what we used to do in the world in the past and we were realistic about it but both sides in a

00:49:45.280 negotiation have to give something and that's going to take time but at least we have a president

00:49:49.280 that recognizes that our objective is this conflict needs to end and it needs to end in a way that's

00:49:53.920 enduring because it's an unsustainable on all sides it's ultimately unsustainable for Russia

00:49:59.660 is paying a big price for this in their own economy their inflation rate and the like

00:50:02.740 but at the end that's the president's position and and it's the truth and I think even a growing

00:50:08.800 number of democrats would now acknowledge that what we have been funding is a stalemate a

00:50:13.620 protracted conflict and maybe even worse than a stalemate one in which incrementally Ukraine

00:50:18.300 is being destroyed and losing more and more territory.

00:50:21.080 So this conflict needs to end.

00:50:22.920 Who's the bigger problem in reaching a final negotiated settlement there, right?

00:50:27.180 Is it Putin or is it Zelensky? 0.86

00:50:29.420 There's a report out that the Ukrainians are just banking on Putin,

00:50:34.820 digging his heels in and becoming annoying to President Trump on this

00:50:38.120 because he won't give an inch.

00:50:39.780 And they're hoping that President Trump will come back over

00:50:41.880 closer to their worldview about Putin, about Russia, about this conflict.

00:50:45.920 So who do you see as the bigger obstacle into getting a negotiated peace there?

00:50:49.500 Well, I think there's the public and then there's the private, right?

00:50:52.040 So in what you see portrayed publicly in conversations and what leaders say, a lot of it is speaking, they have domestic political considerations.

00:51:00.280 Even Vladimir Putin, who controls media, still has to care about what public opinion is in Russia and his image and what, you know, his entire personality is built around the guy.

00:51:09.760 Why do you think he does the shirtless pictures?

00:51:11.580 He didn't do those anymore.

00:51:12.740 I think it's been a while, you know.

00:51:13.940 I asked him, I asked him, why do you do it?

00:51:16.440 When I interviewed him and he said, I give the people what they want.

00:51:18.880 Well, you know, the point is that he has got his own domestic considerations and so does Zelensky, right? 0.97

00:51:25.580 I mean, at the end of the day, he's got, if you imagine if you're Ukrainian, the Russians have made you suffer so much and now you're going to let them keep land. 0.98

00:51:32.000 I mean, people would be upset about that in Ukraine and you would understand it. 0.95

00:51:35.500 And then there's the mature realities of life on this planet.

00:51:39.580 And that's where this work is going to have to be defined.

00:51:41.580 Both sides are paying a heavy price for this.

00:51:43.940 both sides have incentive for this conflict to end both sides are in a it's not going to end

00:51:49.960 with the maximalist goals of either side and there's going to have to be a lot of hard work

00:51:54.280 done and i think only the united states under the leadership of president trump can make that

00:51:58.280 possible but uh it won't be easy and it'll take some time but it's certainly something i know

00:52:02.520 he's strongly committed to being to seeing happen and then there's israel and the return of the

00:52:07.160 hostages which still include americans right um supposedly we're going to get three americans

00:52:13.860 back in the first tranche, the first phase of this hostage deal.

00:52:19.360 Do you believe we will?

00:52:20.660 And what are we going to do if we don't?

00:52:22.100 Well, I expect we will, because that's the agreement that was made.

00:52:26.640 But the core problem here remains, and that is ultimately, as long as there is an entity 0.80

00:52:31.480 like Hamas, whose express purpose is the destruction of the Jewish state, who is willing to commit 0.55

00:52:39.380 horrifying atrocities against civilians against teenage girls at a concert and do the things that 0.61

00:52:45.120 they've done and take hostage for a year and a half babies and elderly and murder and all the 0.59

00:52:48.820 things that they did that's a threat to israel's national security what country in the world can

00:52:52.880 be expected to live alongside an enemy armed capable and willing of committing horrifying

00:52:58.900 atrocities you can't it's awful so i think that the ceasefire is important because it brought an

00:53:03.800 end to some of the destruction and certainly allowed hostages to be freed at an extraordinary

00:53:07.700 cost i mean we're talking about a ratio of one that you know you get a teenage hostage in exchange

00:53:13.900 for 250 killers hamas killers that are released from prison so just think about how unfair that

00:53:19.420 trade is but it tells you how much you know we value life compared to what the other side

00:53:25.320 the hamas animals view this now that said the the real challenge here is going to be what happens

00:53:32.500 when the ceasefire period expires who's going to govern gaza who's going to rebuild gaza

00:53:37.680 Who's going to be in charge of Gaza? 0.90

00:53:39.580 Because if the people who are in charge of Gaza are the same guys that created October 7th, 0.97

00:53:44.220 then we still have the same problem. 0.92

00:53:45.680 Past this prologue.

00:53:46.560 It is.

00:53:47.120 And so, now, the good news in the region is, in Lebanon, 1.00

00:53:50.620 we have a government that hopefully will become more powerful than Hezbollah 0.98

00:53:53.420 in the Lebanese government, and there's a ceasefire that was extended there

00:53:56.760 that ultimately will lead to that.

00:53:58.280 In Syria, a group has taken over.

00:54:01.700 These are not guys that would necessarily pass an FBI background check, per se.

00:54:05.060 No, would not be coming over for Sunday dinner.

00:54:06.620 But if there's an opportunity in Syria, if there is an opportunity in Syria to create a more stable place than what we've had historically, especially under Assad, where Iran and Russia dominated and where ISIS operated with impunity, we need to pursue that opportunity and see where that leads.

00:54:21.520 And if you have a region in which you have a more stable Syria, a more stable Lebanon where Hezbollah is not able to do the things it does on behalf of Iran, a weakened Iran, who's now lost all of these proxies, it now opens the door to things like a deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel, which would change the dynamic of the region.

00:54:40.340 And then ultimately, not make easy, but make easier resolving some of these challenges that we face with the Palestinian question and in particular with the Gaza question.

00:54:49.800 So there's a lot of work to be done there.

00:54:51.640 None of it is certain.

00:54:52.580 All of it is hard.

00:54:53.600 But real opportunities that we couldn't have even imagined 90 days ago.

00:54:58.400 Domestically, Trump pulled the security around Mike Pompeo, who was his secretary of state.

00:55:05.980 And I wonder what your reaction was to that because his defenders are saying it's an outrage and that he's exposed now.

00:55:12.960 Look, the president has the authority to make those decisions and to execute those orders.

00:55:18.880 I can tell you they're all were run through the process that exists for assessing threat versus cost.

00:55:26.160 That process was executed on.

00:55:29.080 There was agreement that this was something that could be done.

00:55:32.280 I've never taken lightly.

00:55:33.820 And if circumstances change and new threats emerge or additional threats emerge, that will always be an option to address.

00:55:41.260 But if you look at some of it, it's also not sustainable.

00:55:44.140 I mean, theoretically, Iran decided or things got out that Iran wanted to continue to kill people.

00:55:51.500 We would have to provide everybody a security detail.

00:55:53.580 So there's a balance there.

00:55:54.540 We don't want to see any Americans harmed.

00:55:56.660 But those decisions about who we provide security for have to be based on a risk assessment.

00:56:04.220 And those risk assessments were done.

00:56:06.480 And it led to that outcome and that conclusion.

00:56:09.540 On the subject of risk assessment, we pulled U.S. foreign aid.

00:56:13.040 We paused U.S. foreign aid with humanitarian exceptions.

00:56:17.700 And then there was a bunch of negative blowback on how this was stopping critical medications and other humanitarian aid that was being provided to our third world allies.

00:56:29.320 Now we've loosened that spigot again.

00:56:31.340 So the criticism is that we got too far ahead of our skis by pulling too much too soon in response to what you say was.

00:56:38.420 I mean, we didn't issue a pullback.

00:56:40.100 We issued a clarification.

00:56:40.900 We always said from the very beginning, with the exception of Israel and Egypt, because that security assistance is a cornerstone of that Camp David Accord and the deals that were made there and are critical to that region.

00:56:51.500 With the exception of that, we said all foreign aid is paused for 90 days except for things that save lives.

00:56:57.620 And what was mentioned in the executive order were things like food and the like.

00:57:02.160 We went back, people say, well, people, we have medicines that we've paid for and that are deployed.

00:57:05.840 And it's sitting on a shelf somewhere and we are not authorized to give it to people.

00:57:09.700 So I said, all right, it makes no sense for us if we already paid for the medicine not to distribute it and give it to people.

00:57:14.660 We don't want to see people die and the like.

00:57:16.760 But this, I think what's important is to talk about the purpose of this pause, okay?

00:57:20.540 If I went to these foreign entities, $60 billion a year, if I went to these and said, okay, show me your foreign aid programs and what they do, historically you've gotten very little cooperation.

00:57:30.220 But if you go to them and say, okay, your money is stopped until you tell us what you do, now you get a lot more cooperation.

00:57:36.020 So now a process exists, and that process is you apply for a waiver.

00:57:39.700 And everybody knows how to apply for a waiver.

00:57:41.680 They know how to come forward and say, this is what our program does.

00:57:44.640 This is why it's important.

00:57:46.040 This is why it makes America safer, stronger, or more prosperous.

00:57:49.140 This is why it's in our national interest.

00:57:51.100 Now we get details about these programs.

00:57:53.620 And we may say, okay, the program gets a waiver.

00:57:56.040 Or we may say, well, the program gets a partial waiver.

00:57:58.780 You do five things, three of them are critical, two of them remain under pause.

00:58:03.720 That's what it gives us the opportunity to do now, thinking of it almost as an audit,

00:58:07.160 but not an audit in which we're voluntarily asking for cooperation i think we're now

00:58:10.900 getting a lot more cooperation because otherwise you don't get your money and and so i think as

00:58:15.100 the weeks go on you will see more and more programs come back online because we've had a chance to

00:58:19.920 review what they actually are some will be partial some will be full but we've got to get control of

00:58:24.520 this we have this thing that i've called the foreign aid industrial complex all these entities

00:58:30.200 around the world that are getting millions and millions of dollars from the united states we

00:58:34.160 have to make sure that it's aligned with our national interest that we are prioritizing that

00:58:37.620 and that we're spending it on things that really matter and are really producing like we don't want 1.00

00:58:41.380 50 million in condoms to the palestinians you know it's they deny that that's true the foreign

00:58:46.540 for the biden administration denied well but okay but part of it was they may deny the number but

00:58:51.400 they can't deny that there are things that we were doing in gaza that had nothing to do with

00:58:54.660 saving lives on the short term or even helping with a ceasefire here's the broader point and i

00:58:59.540 I'm rounding numbers here, but on USAID, about 11, less than 12%, let's be fair.

00:59:08.260 Let's say 12.5% of every dollar, so 12 cents of every dollar, ultimately reached the end recipient.

00:59:14.860 That means the rest of the money was going to fund some NGOs somewhere, some organization.

00:59:18.800 Maybe there's a justification for it.

00:59:20.440 But before I stand before a congressional committee or the American people and say,

00:59:24.180 we sent a dollar to help this cause but only 12 cents of it really got to the people were trying

00:59:30.800 to help the rest of it went into the hands of an organization how do we justify that i can't

00:59:35.200 justify that i need to know answers to that and so these are the kinds of things that we have to go

00:59:39.160 through and ultimately our foreign aid has to be a tool that we use to advance the national interest

00:59:43.580 the u.s government is not a charity it spends money on behalf of our national interest there

00:59:48.120 are a lot of great causes in the world and the private sector can raise as much money as they

00:59:51.320 want for those we taxpayers are going to invest in the things that further our national interest

00:59:55.740 and that's the process we're going through right now and the pause has helped accelerate it i'm

00:59:59.960 going to wrap it up but i do want to ask you um about just a couple more things number one

01:00:06.200 eight years ago you and i were crossing each other on the debate stage donald trump was

01:00:12.020 center stage and he was insulting both of us and things have really changed in eight years yeah i

01:00:19.780 Can you talk about that evolution for you?

01:00:21.440 Yeah, I mean, so I love, like, mixed martial arts and boxing, right?

01:00:24.660 And I see people go in the ring, and I never heard anyone ask a boxer,

01:00:28.180 why did you punch him in the face in the third round?

01:00:30.120 And the boxer would say, well, because it was a boxing match.

01:00:32.780 And so, you know, campaigns are a competitive environment,

01:00:35.660 and President Trump's a tough guy,

01:00:37.760 and so these things are going to get rough and tumble.

01:00:39.660 But there's another difference.

01:00:40.600 I didn't know Donald Trump when he ran for president.

01:00:42.300 I mean, I knew who he was, but I didn't know him as a person.

01:00:45.400 Then he became president.

01:00:46.400 I was in the Senate.

01:00:47.420 Those were the four best years I've ever had in the Senate

01:00:49.380 because we got a lot of things done working with him i got to work around him i got to know him as

01:00:53.520 a person not as the caricature on television but as a person about the way he works the way he

01:00:58.460 makes decisions you learn from being around someone like that as well the things he does

01:01:02.880 on an interpersonal basis with people the the acts of kindness that are never going to be reported

01:01:07.260 that things he does for people that you're never going to hear uh but that he i've just and over

01:01:12.460 time as there's a big difference between the way you know someone when and when you don't know him

01:01:16.500 And I would also say this, you know, I worked in the Senate, 98 of my colleagues, because I voted for myself, 98 of my colleagues.

01:01:23.620 These are people I strongly disagree with.

01:01:25.660 These are people that have accused people who hold some of my policy positions of being some of the worst human beings on the planet.

01:01:31.480 And yet, on a personal level, I had to figure out a way to work with them and get along with them, and they're in the other party.

01:01:37.040 So I don't understand this idea where if a Democrat and a Republican run against each other, you lose the election, you're expected to now,

01:01:44.520 okay the election's over you guys need to work together in the interest of our country if that's

01:01:48.360 expected among people that are in opposite parties what should be expected of people that are in the

01:01:52.580 same party they should be expected to also work together in the end i'm in this because i want to

01:01:57.560 serve my country not because i want to be an enemy of anybody else's on a personal level in the case

01:02:02.800 of president trump i've worked alongside him and i've gotten to know him over the years and i hope

01:02:06.940 that we've gained a mutual respect for one another as well and and so much so that i was honored to

01:02:12.580 be his nominee for secretary of state and now i am yeah and it's an exciting time to be here

01:02:16.580 you gave it back to him just as good and i gave him a few punches too so we you know it was fair

01:02:21.100 game we were both fair game back when uh that was happening it's almost 10 years ago now that

01:02:24.380 debate that august 15 debate um i mentioned at the top of the interview flippantly the deep state

01:02:29.780 thing you know it is a real concern but for a lot of people that there's there's like a group of

01:02:34.300 people at state and elsewhere who will actively work to undermine your agenda and president trump's

01:02:39.720 Well, I think that's going to be true in any large organization.

01:02:42.520 You're going to have people that are not aligned with a mission and not aligned with carrying things out.

01:02:45.980 And I think I always am careful about it, not because I'm resistant to the idea per se, but because I also think there are very talented people who may not agree with me on policy, but will do what the mission is.

01:02:58.100 They will carry out the mission.

01:03:00.280 And I think we expect that of people all the time.

01:03:02.520 You know, I mean, if you think about it, I don't know who the pilot on, maybe it's a terrible analogy on a day like this, but we don't know when we get on a commercial aircraft who the pilots voted for, you know, or who they are, but I don't think they're going to harm us.

01:03:14.520 I don't, you go to a doctor, I don't necessarily check their voter registration and we expect doctors to treat as well.

01:03:19.560 And I think the same is true for people that work.

01:03:21.280 There are a lot of professionals that work in the State Department who will carry out the mission, but they need to have a clear mission.

01:03:26.760 And they want the State Department to be relevant again and have deep expertise on topics that we need their support.

01:03:31.960 Now, look, if someone is going to actively undermine the work of the elected administration, that's a problem.

01:03:38.320 And I think any agency would argue that, and I think any president would argue that.

01:03:42.640 In the end, the State Department and foreign policy is not separate from our republic.

01:03:47.580 In our republic, the American people elect a president, and that president is the executive officer of our country and is in charge with executing our foreign policy.

01:03:56.840 And our agency's job is to execute the president's foreign policy.

01:04:00.540 We don't have an independent foreign policy, independent from our republic, independent from our people, independent from the outcome of elections.

01:04:07.360 And so our expectations is that no matter how people may feel about political leaders or me or the president or anybody else,

01:04:12.780 their job is to execute on the policies the American people have chosen through their elected representatives.

01:04:17.900 And that's what we're going to do at the State Department.

01:04:19.520 And I think the overwhelming majority of our workforce will comply with that.

01:04:23.480 Pretty cool. Your parents were from Cuba. They immigrated here in the late 1950s, I think. Your dad was a janitor.

01:04:28.680 May 27, 1956. 0.97

01:04:30.580 Mom works in a hotel as a maid.

01:04:33.960 And here you are, Secretary of State.

01:04:36.500 Final thought on what that says about the United States of America.

01:04:40.800 That it remains the only place where anyone from anywhere can achieve anything.

01:04:44.160 And I think from our example is what other countries we hope will try to emulate in their own nations.

01:04:50.140 And so it's a testament not just to the country but to the people of this country.

01:04:53.560 and the greatest gift my parents ever left me is they never discouraged never did my parents ever

01:04:59.920 say you can't be that people like us can never be that um they've always encouraged us to have big

01:05:04.960 dreams and and pursue them whatever they may lead and if you work hard you can achieve what they are

01:05:09.260 for some people that dream is i just want to have a really good job and raise a family and

01:05:13.200 and be able to leave my kids better off than themselves and for others it's professional

01:05:17.920 dreams as well and i am blessed to be a citizen of the only place in human history where that's

01:05:23.080 happen for so many those dreams have led you to this position and soon to panama where we need

01:05:28.940 you you got an important job good luck thank you thank you so much great to see you again a lot of

01:05:33.100 fun thank you come on i need sleep dreaming about getting rid of me i'm allowed to dream

01:05:40.200 aren't i if i was gone what would you do sleep it's time to break up with your debt

01:05:46.020 farmer debt solutions licensed insolvency trustees get the truth about debt

01:05:53.080 We have a very special program for you this morning, all about Tulsi Gabbard.

01:05:58.720 When I first met Tulsi, she was still a Democrat. And it was early on in her career. When she first

01:06:06.780 came on this show, we didn't even have audio. We didn't even have video. It was an audio-only

01:06:11.340 podcast. And you could hear her with the birds tweeting in the background from her home state

01:06:16.800 of Hawaii. And the two of us were wondering what our next move was in life. This podcast was

01:06:22.560 fledgling. She had been ostracized by the Democrats and the Democrat Party. And here we are five years 0.98

01:06:30.960 later, both in very different places. She's now running at the top of 18 intelligence agencies.

01:06:38.740 And I'm down here interviewing her at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. 0.62

01:06:44.140 So many did not want her to get this post because while Hillary Clinton and others accused her of

01:06:51.340 being Putin's puppet, etc., what crushes them about Tulsi Gabbard is she's no one's puppet.

01:06:58.100 She won't be bought, she won't be bullied, and she won't be cowed in saying how she really feels

01:07:04.680 by the military-industrial complex or anyone else. So we just completed a fascinating hour-long

01:07:12.860 talk about so many different things. It's Tulsi like you've seen her a bit before, you know,

01:07:18.380 still straightforward and moving and honest in her commentary, but in a brand new, really big role.

01:07:25.260 Enjoy.

01:07:26.760 I'm so excited to be here with you.

01:07:29.480 There's significance to where we are. Why?

01:07:31.780 Yes. So we're sitting here in the lobby of the buildings known as Liberty Crossing,

01:07:38.460 the Office of Director of National Intelligence.

01:07:41.840 This organization was formed because of the disaster of the intelligence community

01:07:47.500 that could have prevented the attack on 9-11

01:07:52.280 had there been an integration of intelligence,

01:07:55.420 had the CIA been talking to the FBI

01:07:57.960 and all of these different people

01:07:59.440 who had different pieces of information

01:08:01.160 but weren't talking to and sharing that information

01:08:03.980 and intelligence with each other,

01:08:05.960 followed by the intelligence failure of the Iraq War

01:08:09.340 that ultimately led to the creation of this organization.

01:08:12.480 So we're sitting here in the lobby.

01:08:14.220 This is the very first interview that's ever been done in this lobby

01:08:19.240 and potentially in this building anywhere.

01:08:22.480 I'm honored.

01:08:23.080 It's a special day.

01:08:23.920 And this is the 20th anniversary of the founding of this organization.

01:08:28.300 Wow.

01:08:28.800 Yeah, your role was created after 9-11 as a result of all that.

01:08:32.720 Now you oversee 18 intelligence agencies.

01:08:35.160 Can I just ask you as a practical matter, you come in,

01:08:37.860 you had a background in intelligence when you were in the house.

01:08:40.400 It's not like you'd never touched it.

01:08:41.780 I was on the Armed Services and the Foreign Affairs Committee, so it was interesting as a member of Congress there for eight years on those subject matter committees, I was a customer of intelligence very frequently, some of the highest levels of intelligence as well as kind of the broader intelligence briefings that we had.

01:08:59.860 And so I, at that time, experienced a level of frustration that's common if you were to ask most members of Congress, in that the briefings that we received then, more often than not, were things that we had already read about in the newspapers, seen on the news the night before, and just didn't get much value from it to better inform the decisions that we had to make related to our military or military operations or foreign policy decisions.

01:09:25.620 And that was, you know, I left Congress, and my last day was January 3rd of 2021.

01:09:32.860 And as I was going through the confirmation process for this job,

01:09:36.660 and I was meeting with the different senators,

01:09:39.000 it was interesting that they expressed that same frustration to me,

01:09:43.360 and many of these senators were members of the Intelligence Committee,

01:09:48.060 which really spoke to how much work there is to do still.

01:09:53.660 So you show up here, you get confirmed.

01:09:55.940 I mean, what's the first thing that happens?

01:09:57.260 As a practical matter, do you say, like, let me see the JFK files?

01:10:01.100 Like, what do you do?

01:10:02.700 I have a long list of things I'm working through.

01:10:06.040 But honestly, the first thing that I did was actually send out an email to all the people who work here

01:10:13.620 and said, I'll be down here in this lobby where we are right now.

01:10:17.820 I think it was at 12 o'clock.

01:10:19.420 And if you're free, I'd love to come and introduce myself and say hello.

01:10:23.240 it was standing room only here. I was grateful to be able to have the opportunity to just

01:10:29.780 immediately address those who work here, intelligence professionals, analysts, people

01:10:35.100 who are subject matter experts in different areas, some of the support staff who are here and kind of

01:10:40.020 keep the lights on. And they gave me a very warm welcome. And I laid out who I am, my background,

01:10:48.400 and the mandate that the American people delivered by electing Donald Trump and why I'm here,

01:10:55.540 the purpose that we all are here for, to serve the American people, to ensure their safety,

01:11:01.100 security, and freedom, first and foremost. And let me just tell you this. I got a number of

01:11:06.140 notes. I told them, let me know what you think is going right. Let me know what you think needs

01:11:11.500 fixing. You can find my email address. You can find my number. And I started to get notes from

01:11:16.440 people, one of which came from a guy who has worked here since its founding. And it really,

01:11:23.100 I'll never forget it because he said, not once has any other director ever come and done anything

01:11:28.360 like this. And second, he said, I'm so happy that you're here and the changes that you seek to make,

01:11:36.220 now I can finally breathe.

01:11:39.140 Oh, wow.

01:11:41.000 So a simple gesture of coming and saying,

01:11:46.400 this is who I am.

01:11:47.940 I look forward to working with you to serve our country,

01:11:50.760 to refocus the intelligence community

01:11:52.720 back on its core mission,

01:11:54.140 to get rid of the distractions,

01:11:56.340 the weaponization,

01:11:57.520 and all of the other noise

01:11:59.520 that has undermined the trust

01:12:02.220 that the American people may have had long ago

01:12:05.200 in the intelligence community, it just speaks to the vacuum of that leadership that unfortunately

01:12:13.520 has existed for so long. So how do you, I have no doubt that the people in this building

01:12:17.740 like you as a person, but you have to fight the deep state's loathing of your boss, right? I mean,

01:12:25.840 there's no question there's a fair amount of loathing by Democrat, you know, lifers

01:12:30.100 that work in these buildings for him.

01:12:32.760 Yes.

01:12:33.280 And that's why I think we see leaks,

01:12:36.120 whether it's at the Pentagon or from here,

01:12:38.340 and you've had a couple,

01:12:39.080 and you've handled them very well and very firmly.

01:12:41.720 But how do you battle that?

01:12:43.460 I mean, it's like they have an agenda.

01:12:45.440 Yeah.

01:12:45.800 Well, I'm sure there are people who work here

01:12:47.600 and within the intelligence community

01:12:48.980 who probably don't think or speak very kindly of me either,

01:12:54.700 specifically because, again,

01:12:57.320 through the president's leadership

01:12:58.460 and the mandate of the American people, I know exactly what I need to do here and how deep the

01:13:06.380 rot is within the intelligence community that has to be rooted out. So yes, bringing about

01:13:13.060 transparency and accountability, shining a light in areas that haven't seen the light in a very long

01:13:20.800 time, if ever, really pushing for the declassification of documents that the president

01:13:27.120 has listed in several of his executive orders, and reminding people here, especially in the area

01:13:34.080 of declassification, there's so much protection. We've got to hold on to all the secrets instead

01:13:40.700 of really thinking about what is in the best public interest. And so obviously starting with

01:13:45.320 the assassination documents related to President John F. Kennedy, Senator Robert Kennedy, and Martin

01:13:50.620 Luther King Jr. is the starting point, but there are many other areas where we have to bring about

01:13:56.580 transparency. We have, in order to achieve accountability and deliver that to the American

01:14:03.380 people, reminding people here every single day that the American taxpayers pay for this building.

01:14:10.780 Yeah, there are secrets.

01:14:11.880 Exactly. They keep the lights on. They are the ones who are funding your paycheck that's paying

01:14:18.820 for your rent, your mortgage, your ability to feed your family. The American people are who we work

01:14:24.700 for. So any other level of protectionism of like, well, we don't want this agency to be embarrassed

01:14:31.520 by what we are going to expose in the truth to the American people. It's a wrongheaded mindset

01:14:37.060 and speaks to the huge culture shift, the mindset shift that has to take place here. And this is

01:14:44.000 the bigger thing that we are tackling here and that the president is tackling and we're

01:14:49.000 attacking across the entire federal government. Did we learn something new in the RFK and JFK

01:14:53.200 documents in particular? I didn't follow it that closely, to be honest, but my takeaway was

01:14:58.360 most people thought it didn't add that much. Am I wrong? I got to say, I'm not someone who has

01:15:06.200 studied these over the years, so I'm probably about where you are. There were new pieces of

01:15:12.040 information. Did you get a briefing from somebody who said, holy God, it really was the CIA?

01:15:17.460 No.

01:15:18.320 Okay.

01:15:18.880 And those who are experts on this, who've studied this for a long time, did not find

01:15:25.240 what they were looking for.

01:15:26.800 So yes, there was new intelligence and information that was declassified that had not ever been

01:15:31.840 seen by the public before.

01:15:33.940 There were new revelations that came through.

01:15:36.100 But in both of those cases, and in a few days, we're releasing another, I think, 50,000 or

01:15:41.240 60,000 pages related to Senator Robert F. Kennedy's assassination.

01:15:46.740 because we had to go out and hunt and find those files stuck in other warehouses.

01:15:51.760 But whether or not it delivers the quote-unquote smoking gun,

01:15:57.920 the important thing is that the transparency is there.

01:16:01.280 Well, it's even more reason to release it if it doesn't have anything.

01:16:04.500 You know, it's like you must have looked at some of this and said,

01:16:06.640 why was this kept a secret for so long?

01:16:08.580 Exactly.

01:16:09.140 It just sends people spinning.

01:16:10.520 Exactly.

01:16:11.340 On the subject of documents that we'd like to see but haven't,

01:16:14.220 COVID and its origins. I'm sure you saw that just before we sat down tonight, the Chinese

01:16:19.240 State Council Information Office, I don't even want to know what that is, but it sounds bad.

01:16:24.520 They have determined that COVID came from us, that it's more likely than not that COVID originated

01:16:30.380 in the United States and not in China. I'm wondering whether you have any dispute with

01:16:37.700 that based on what you've seen over here. The intelligence community has been responsible for

01:16:41.760 trying to figure out in part how this thing started.

01:16:45.080 So I created kind of a special teams group,

01:16:49.240 the director's initiative group,

01:16:50.680 that is focused on investigating

01:16:53.060 a number of the president's top priorities

01:16:55.660 and the things that the American people really deserve

01:16:58.300 and want to know the truth about.

01:17:00.160 The origins of COVID-19 is one of them.

01:17:02.600 So they're actively working on that.

01:17:04.540 A lot of the work that's been done is on COVID.gov.

01:17:08.600 Have you had a chance to look?

01:17:09.780 Oh, Trump changed it.

01:17:11.240 It's quite a transformation of the website for anybody watching.

01:17:16.040 If you haven't seen it, check it out.

01:17:17.420 It's the annoying website to which YouTube and all social media

01:17:20.580 used to refer people with Fauci talking points,

01:17:23.520 and now it's been completely taken out.

01:17:24.700 Completely reversed.

01:17:26.980 So a lot of what's been found is already there.

01:17:31.080 But the thing that we are working with Jay Bhattacharya,

01:17:35.280 the new NIH director on, with, as well as Secretary Kennedy,

01:17:39.780 is looking at the gain-of-function research

01:17:45.060 that in the case of the Wuhan lab,

01:17:48.160 as well as many of these other bio labs around the world,

01:17:52.280 was actually U.S.-funded

01:17:54.340 and leads to this dangerous kind of research

01:17:57.080 that in many examples has resulted in either a pandemic

01:18:02.860 or some other major health crisis.

01:18:05.780 Well, let me ask you specifically,

01:18:06.680 because we already know that EcoHealth Alliance

01:18:08.300 was partnering with this Wuhan lab to do gain-of-function research.

01:18:12.660 That's right.

01:18:13.300 We just have never been able to have somebody say,

01:18:15.840 and it was that exact experiment that led to this COVID bug.

01:18:20.420 But have we gotten there?

01:18:21.920 What's the new thing that you're digging in on?

01:18:23.980 We are working on that with Jay Bhattacharya

01:18:27.280 and look forward to being able to share that, hopefully very soon.

01:18:30.720 Okay.

01:18:31.040 That specific link.

01:18:32.840 Correct.

01:18:33.480 Between the gain-of-function research and what we saw with COVID-19. 0.91

01:18:37.000 I mean, that would be extraordinary, because just so the audience knows, if that's true, if it was Peter Daszak's research with the Wuhan so-called Bat Lady that caused this pandemic, then we did fund it. 0.82

01:18:46.800 Then Anthony Fauci helped fund the pandemic.

01:18:49.500 The thing that he denied over and over and over to Senator Rand Paul's questioning.

01:18:55.440 That's right. Under oath.

01:18:56.540 An under oath. Exactly. So it is. Is it any wonder that he sought a preemptive pardon for anything during a certain period of time by President Biden before he left office?

01:19:09.120 And then strong armed and smeared people like Dr. J. Bhattacharya, anybody who came out and said, I don't know if that's natural. This actually smacks of lab.

01:19:20.080 And the reason why this is so important is not just what happened in the past.

01:19:25.080 It's because this gain-of-function research is happening in biolabs around the world.

01:19:30.800 I got attacked, and I think you saw this, we've probably talked about it on your show before,

01:19:34.780 when I warned against U.S.-funded biolabs in Ukraine when the Russia-Ukraine war kicked off for this very reason. 0.50

01:19:42.720 Who knows what kinds of pathogens are in these labs and if release could create another COVID-like pandemic. 0.90

01:19:49.120 And for that, I was called a Russian asset. You're, you know, trumpeting Putin's talking points, all of this nonsense simply for speaking the truth and stating facts that, by the way, are still on U.S. Embassy Ukraine's website today about how the U.S. has funded these biolabs in Ukraine.

01:20:07.420 But in order to, my point is, in order to prevent another COVID-like pandemic or another major health incident that could affect us in the world, we have to end this gain-of-function research and provide the evidence that shows exactly why and how it's in our best interest, the American people's best interest, to bring about an end to it.

01:20:29.540 Can I just ask you one other question on that?

01:20:30.940 Why did the intelligence community, why were they so reluctant to just say that?

01:20:35.160 You know, under Joe Biden, it was split.

01:20:38.640 The FBI eventually said, well, we kind of think it was the lab.

01:20:40.940 The Department of Energy said lab.

01:20:43.000 But then the other agencies were like, no, we think more natural origin.

01:20:45.860 Long past the point when it did not look like natural origin.

01:20:48.380 They tested 80,000 or 90,000 animals.

01:20:50.820 They never found this version of the virus.

01:20:52.560 So what was going on with the intel community?

01:20:55.080 You know, it's a good question, and I don't have a specific answer to it.

01:20:59.140 But I want to point to the contrast of how, in some cases, they are very unwilling to come to express a view or a certain opinion on something.

01:21:11.800 And in other cases, even if they don't have decisive or conclusive evidence per se, they're very quickly to come to an assumption.

01:21:23.160 And this gets to the real heart of the challenge here and the problems that we've seen is the politicization of intelligence to meet a certain objective or to influence a certain policy.

01:21:35.280 And that is what has been the problem.

01:21:38.080 This goes all the way back to why this organization was founded.

01:21:40.680 When you look at the so-called intelligence that really was used to spur the Iraq regime change war and look at what that has cost our country in lives, in treasure. 0.84

01:21:52.900 Look at what it's cost the world. 0.93

01:21:54.720 Look at what Iraq is today, now essentially a proxy of Iran. 0.79

01:22:00.660 When Iraq, that would not have happened had that regime change war not occurred. 0.61

01:22:06.520 That's right.

01:22:06.900 So again, this is really what is at the heart of what needs to be addressed within the intelligence community

01:22:13.800 and why leadership matters so much.

01:22:17.160 Just as a reminder to our audience, you were a young 21-year-old state assembly person in Hawaii, and two years after that, you signed up, you enlisted in the National Guard, and you were deployed to Iraq, so you know firsthand about the blood and triggers.

01:22:33.480 And then I served in a medical unit, and it was with a unit out of Hawaii, infantry brigade

01:22:42.140 combat team, and my first task every single day was to go through a list of all of those

01:22:50.160 who had been casualties a day before, those who were injured.

01:22:53.440 I was the first one notified when there was someone who was killed in action, and ultimately

01:22:58.940 to make sure that those who were injured either got the medical care they needed, that

01:23:03.040 they were evacuated as quickly as possible and then making sure that they were getting that care

01:23:08.820 all the way until they got home or getting them back out into the field. But every day,

01:23:14.420 going through this list of names and thinking about those at home who I knew because I heard

01:23:22.660 from my parents were worrying and terrified of their phone ringing and the most terrible

01:23:33.440 outcome of their loved one, their husband or wife or son or daughter, brother or sister

01:23:40.160 being in a position where they have paid the ultimate price in service to our country.

01:23:44.980 And this is such an important thing because too often, as you know, very well covering

01:23:51.440 all of these issues for so long that you have politicians who debate whether do we go to war

01:23:57.100 here or there, or do we go topple this government or that government? And too often it is so detached

01:24:05.160 from the real consequences that come from those decisions. And we see the same reflected here

01:24:15.120 at times, again, when we have people who are working within the intelligence community

01:24:19.500 who perhaps in some cases have become too detached

01:24:24.680 from the impact of their work

01:24:29.900 on those who are making life and death decisions for our country

01:24:33.840 and the potential to either go to war or to prevent war,

01:24:37.280 as President Trump is trying to do on many fronts.

01:24:40.320 And you have those who are co-opted by the military-industrial complex

01:24:44.500 abusing their position to feed or manipulate intelligence

01:24:49.460 as we saw with the Iraq war

01:24:52.100 to start a new war

01:24:53.900 this intelligence community

01:24:57.900 the work that gets done in places like this

01:25:00.160 every single day

01:25:01.100 has that power

01:25:03.400 to be the fodder, the fuel

01:25:06.180 the seed that can lead to

01:25:08.160 yet another unnecessary

01:25:09.520 you're overseeing the group

01:25:11.980 that could cause it

01:25:13.620 Pete Hexeth overseeing the group

01:25:15.820 that would have to do it

01:25:17.060 and both of you are in very powerful positions in advising President Trump about the risks and

01:25:22.080 rewards. There was a New York Times article within the past month saying you, he, J.D. Vance,

01:25:28.660 and his chief of staff, Susie Wiles, were all together in urging him to not go too far on

01:25:37.100 our actions against Iran, that we should not give Netanyahu what he wanted by either participating in

01:25:44.220 or boldly and robustly supporting Israel bombing Iran, 0.58

01:25:48.080 that that's a proxy for us,

01:25:49.160 and there's no way we wouldn't be heavily involved.

01:25:52.240 And that is not a position the United States wants to be in.

01:25:54.980 And President Trump did not do it.

01:25:57.000 He did not give Netanyahu the answer he wanted.

01:26:00.340 I know you're not going to get into the specifics

01:26:01.880 of what you advise the president,

01:26:03.060 but can you explain your view of the dangers

01:26:07.360 of barreling toward a potential conflict with Iran?

01:26:12.760 Yeah, the New York Times article was a result of an unfortunate, unauthorized, and illegal leak of a very private conversation between the president and his advisors.

01:26:29.580 I won't get into the details, but it was a very robust discussion that really speaks to President Trump's care and thoughtfulness as he makes his decisions around these very serious issues of war and peace.

01:26:47.680 Ultimately, what we are doing is providing the president with the facts, the intelligence.

01:26:53.700 Here is what the intelligence is telling us as the Secretary of Defense.

01:26:59.160 Here are the options that are on the table and the likely outcomes that could occur if you go with course of action A, B, or C.

01:27:06.740 And ultimately, it's the president who makes the decision.

01:27:09.920 And he has made it clear time and time again that his goal with Iran, first of all, 0.73

01:27:15.880 they cannot be in a position where they can develop or have a nuclear weapon, 0.87

01:27:19.500 and that he believes and is confident in the opportunity that this moment provides

01:27:26.920 to be able to achieve that outcome through peaceful means,

01:27:30.820 through diplomacy and through negotiations.

01:27:33.360 And he knows that that's what's in the best interest for the American people and for the world.

01:27:39.540 You're ordering dessert? The bill's already too much.

01:27:43.340 You never let me enjoy things.

01:27:45.840 You're not even alive. You can't eat.

01:27:48.880 You feed me so well. Your time, money, happiness.

01:27:53.160 I'm out of all three.

01:27:54.760 You signed up for this.

01:27:56.260 Yeah, well, maybe I should sign off then.

01:27:58.660 Whatever.

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01:28:10.180 On the Iran front, here's the argument that the more neocon crew makes.

01:28:17.560 All right, this is from Mark Dubowicz of Defense of Democracies,

01:28:22.400 one of these think tanks in Washington that wants a hard line toward them.

01:28:26.060 He recently tweeted, quote,

01:28:27.040 The Islamic Republic is weaker than ever, hated by most Iranians,

01:28:30.500 hammered by the IDF and Mossad.

01:28:32.440 Its terror armies, meaning Hamas, the Houthis, and Hezbollah,

01:28:35.040 air defense, missile production capability are in ruins. 0.85

01:28:37.920 Never a better time to dismantle its nuke program and finish off the regime. 0.95

01:28:42.780 Will another president blink?

01:28:45.920 How is he wrong?

01:28:48.560 First of all, the military option is always on the table.

01:28:52.480 The president often talks about peace through strength,

01:28:55.280 and he means what he says when he talks about his objective,

01:28:59.280 which is also Prime Minister Netanyahu's objective,

01:29:02.020 and I think many countries in the world would agree

01:29:04.220 that Iran cannot be in a position to have a nuclear weapon

01:29:07.480 or to develop a nuclear weapon.

01:29:09.880 That is unequivocal.

01:29:11.580 How we get there is really the question.

01:29:14.540 The president is of the mind as he has been consistently through his first term in office

01:29:19.020 as he is now.

01:29:20.180 If there is a way to achieve what is in our best national security interests through peaceful

01:29:26.080 means, through negotiations, not blind trust like, okay, we're just going to believe whatever

01:29:30.780 they say, not at all.

01:29:32.480 Any deal that is potentially made with Iran will have to come with a very, very rigorous

01:29:38.680 set of verification means.

01:29:41.600 Nothing like the failure that was the JCPOA that President Obama negotiated.

01:29:49.260 The deal that President Trump, through his very talented and exceptional ambassador in Steve Whitcoff, is negotiating is a deal that will best serve the security interests of the American people.

01:30:03.940 Do you feel the push, Tulsi, the push of this strong neocon strain that's still within the Republican Party and probably in these agencies that's much more hawkish on an issue, including war in the Middle East, which we've just done for 20 years?

01:30:22.380 Yeah, of course. The pressure's there. The debate is happening in the public, which I think is a good thing.

01:30:27.640 It's a positive thing that we're hearing from different elements, yes, even within the Republican Party.

01:30:33.560 Even if they're leaking? I mean, because we're hearing from them that way.

01:30:36.300 Well, the leaks should not, the leaks have to end.

01:30:39.460 If the president can't have the confidence that he can sit in a room with his closest advisors without it leaking to the public,

01:30:47.380 then that is something that really undermines his being best served with the best possible information,

01:30:56.960 with debate, robust debate around the table, which you look at the team of people he's assembled,

01:31:01.340 He likes that debate because he sees the value in hearing different perspectives so that he can make that best informed decision.

01:31:09.440 But when we look at this debate that's happening kind of in the public town square, whether it be digital or TV or whatever the platform is there,

01:31:18.160 I think it's important for the American people to see the contrast and the difference between the neocons who are very ready to rush into war

01:31:26.220 without allowing what President Kennedy spoke about

01:31:29.960 in his historic speech at American University,

01:31:32.680 which was to choose peace,

01:31:36.260 to do the hard work of diplomacy,

01:31:38.920 to recognize the true cost and the serious cost of war,

01:31:43.120 and that it requires strong leadership

01:31:45.560 to do the hard work of diplomacy

01:31:47.940 in order to achieve peace however and wherever possible,

01:31:51.760 and that it's not something that you just go,

01:31:54.540 okay, good, we got peace, and then you walk away. No, it requires consistent engagement and that

01:32:00.140 strong leadership that once again strikes that balance and recognizes that we cannot be prosperous

01:32:06.560 unless we are at peace as a nation and ensuring our nation's security. We have the strongest and

01:32:15.080 most capable military in the world. And I can say as someone who still serves in the Army Reserve

01:32:20.340 and has now for 22 years.

01:32:22.320 You're too busy for that right now.

01:32:24.300 A little bit.

01:32:26.100 But those who I've had the privilege of serving alongside,

01:32:29.760 I had the chance to go and do some PT with Pete Hegseth

01:32:32.240 and some Marines the other day.

01:32:34.100 You still got it?

01:32:35.280 Are you still there?

01:32:36.140 You know, I'm giving the kids a run for their money,

01:32:38.380 and I'm good with that.

01:32:40.480 That's amazing.

01:32:41.320 But it's recognizing, again, yes, we have the capability

01:32:45.200 to defend our safety, security, and freedom

01:32:48.140 anywhere, anytime.

01:32:49.520 But it takes a strong leader and a strong president to choose peace and diplomacy, recognizing that war and the use of our military because of the sacrifices of these young men and women from all across the country that is required when you go to war.

01:33:07.660 President Trump takes that very seriously.

01:33:09.300 I mean, I appreciate it as a mother of an 11-, 14-, and 15-year-old.

01:33:13.060 I appreciate that.

01:33:14.340 I do not want somebody with their foot on the gas pedal

01:33:17.100 recklessly pushing us into yet another war,

01:33:20.220 and I think I speak for most people in the country on that.

01:33:24.540 The leaks, we touched on it.

01:33:26.520 It must be very disconcerting to be in a private meeting with the president

01:33:29.700 with only top, top people,

01:33:31.660 and then a day later see it on the pages of the New York Times.

01:33:35.880 Clearly, I assume you trust your fellow cabinet members and so on implicitly,

01:33:40.540 but everyone has to speak to a staff about what happened and what needs to happen.

01:33:45.400 And I wonder how rattling that is,

01:33:48.500 because you're in the same position in a way that Pete Hegsteth is in,

01:33:52.220 where people underneath you appear to be leaking even top-secret information

01:33:58.340 that you can go to jail for leaking.

01:34:01.580 But they clearly have such an agenda, it's worth it to them.

01:34:04.260 Yeah. So how has that affected you? And you're dealing with it with a firm hand, but how has it affected you when this happens?

01:34:09.740 You know, you mentioned that that example of that New York Times article.

01:34:13.540 There were a number of things in that article that were completely inaccurate, which speaks to, again,

01:34:18.980 and there is an investigation that's underway to try to figure out the source of this leak or sources of this leak around that specific incident.

01:34:28.200 But the effect is, I mean, it makes things much harder

01:34:32.560 in constantly questioning and looking over your shoulder,

01:34:36.180 okay, who's in the room?

01:34:37.660 I have to be careful about everything that I say

01:34:40.140 because ultimately we're in a situation

01:34:44.300 where these things being leaked,

01:34:46.040 either by people who are just trying to show a reporter

01:34:51.660 that they're important or chasing clout of some sort

01:34:55.700 or the most dangerous of which is those who are trying to ultimately undermine the president's

01:35:01.960 policies. And this is not just like, okay, we don't like Trump or someone who has a problem

01:35:08.600 with President Trump and his policies. Really what is happening when they do that is they're

01:35:13.260 undermining our democracy because what they're doing in whatever tactic they use is saying,

01:35:19.660 well, I'm doing what's best for the country and I know what's better for the country

01:35:24.800 than the majority, the vast majority of the American people

01:35:27.860 who chose this duly elected president, Donald Trump.

01:35:32.520 And that's where you can agree or disagree with his policies,

01:35:35.740 but when people cross that line who are in these positions of power and influence,

01:35:41.380 they are actually undermining our democracy and our security in doing so.

01:35:45.180 You've referred three people now to DOJ for criminal prosecution.

01:35:49.580 Do you think they will be prosecuted?

01:35:51.700 That's the goal. That's the goal.

01:35:53.700 The only way we bring about accountability is by doing the work of conducting these investigations.

01:36:01.900 The Department of Justice and the FBI obviously have different tools that they can use in order to find the truth

01:36:09.940 and to seek out that evidence so that we can actually prosecute these crimes.

01:36:14.020 Do the people know they've been referred? Do they still work here?

01:36:16.680 In some cases they know, in other cases they are likely not aware.

01:36:22.060 We have another 11 cases that we are still conducting our own internal investigations around.

01:36:27.640 Some will be sent to the Department of Justice for further investigation and prosecution for criminal charges because it is a crime, it's a federal crime.

01:36:36.420 And others, depending on the situation, will be dealt with internally where people will be fired and have their security clearance revoked.

01:36:44.180 One of the leaks was it spoke to what Trump is trying to do with the deportations,

01:36:49.780 Not the securing of the southern border, but the deportations.

01:36:52.680 And he has declared under the Alien Enemies Act an invasion or incursion,

01:36:57.520 in part saying that the Venezuelan government has dispatched Trenda, Aragua, this gang,

01:37:03.820 to come into the United States and commit mayhem.

01:37:07.080 And one of the things that was leaked from someone in the intel community was that didn't happen.

01:37:12.840 There is no official link between the Venezuelan government and Trenda, Aragua.

01:37:17.840 Therefore, it's not an incursion.

01:37:19.140 It's not an invasion.

01:37:19.980 It's very clear why somebody would leak that to try to undermine the president's use of the Alien Enemies Act.

01:37:26.020 Is that one of the leaks being investigated?

01:37:27.780 It is being investigated.

01:37:29.480 There's a few things to add to that to kind of color out the picture.

01:37:33.140 One of the most often tactics that these leakers use is they will take, let's say it's a six-page top-secret classified document,

01:37:44.520 And they will pull a line from page one and a line from page two and a line from page three

01:37:49.440 that when put together supports the narrative that they are trying to push,

01:37:54.000 but is not at all reflective of the kind of conclusive analysis in that report.

01:38:03.540 And that's exactly what happened in this case.

01:38:06.960 So they very selectively and intentionally left out what was really the most important thing,

01:38:12.040 which was that the FBI very clearly is the intelligence element that is responsible for

01:38:17.660 domestic security. So it shouldn't be a surprise then that they are the element that said, yes,

01:38:25.120 the Maduro Venezuelan government is supporting Trend de Aragua and their criminal activities here,

01:38:32.440 enabled by President Biden's four years of open borders, where they very freely came in and out

01:38:37.760 of our country and we're able to begin to control territory here in the United States.

01:38:44.020 The CIA doesn't collect intelligence here in the United States because that is not

01:38:50.080 within their writ or their authorities. So again, this is why we look at the ways that

01:38:56.200 intelligence leaks are politicized is by the selective picking and choosing and very clearly

01:39:03.400 leaving out the thing that actually supports what the president is doing here.

01:39:08.260 I'm listening to you. I'm rolling my eyes at the thought of a judge trying to overrule effectively you and President Trump

01:39:20.980 on whether it's been an incursion, on whether the intel supports this link, without having any access to any of these materials.

01:39:29.820 I mean, when you see the courts really trying to get involved in this and seeming to be on a road towards saying we are allowed to declare whether there is an incursion or they're not, what's your reaction?

01:39:42.500 I mean, it's such a dangerous thing. And again, it's preposterous in my view that these judges, the judicial branch obviously plays an important role in our three, you know, co-equal branches of government.

01:39:53.740 But they should understand what their role is. And these activist judges who now somehow believe that they're in the position of making policy by undermining the president's legal authorities and orders bestowed upon him by the American people.

01:40:09.520 He did the hard work and put his name on the ballot and ran for office.

01:40:12.800 If these judges want to run for office and be president, go ahead and do that.

01:40:16.600 Go make your policies.

01:40:18.280 Go state your views and your opinions.

01:40:20.340 But they are politicizing the bench and, you know, showing how through their activism,

01:40:27.020 they are undermining, really, frankly, their own credibility in doing this.

01:40:31.640 And again, another thing that undermines the American people's faith and trust,

01:40:35.480 that these institutions, that the judicial branch in some of these cases is actually doing their job.

01:40:43.100 You do a presidential daily brief every day.

01:40:45.480 You don't do a judicial daily brief every day.

01:40:47.980 You don't sit with Judge Bosberg or the U.S. Supreme Court and tell them all the things that he hears.

01:40:53.360 That's what's so absurd about it.

01:40:54.780 It's crazy.

01:40:55.040 One more thing I'll add on that, because you mentioned of leakers within the intelligence community.

01:41:00.320 Unfortunately, we have them, and they have been there for far too long, and we are trying to root them out.

01:41:05.900 But there's also another source of leaks coming from Congress, where certain staffers and members of Congress have access to this very same intelligence.

01:41:18.820 And as you can imagine, some may find it in their interest to selectively leak intelligence,

01:41:25.620 once again to support the talking points that they are delivering that are undermining the

01:41:31.640 president's actions to root out these cartels and these gangs to keep the American people safe.

01:41:39.780 When we just take a step back and look at the arguments that many of these Democrats in Congress

01:41:44.740 are making and how hard they are fighting and these judges, it makes zero sense in really

01:41:51.640 President Trump's mission is very clear. We are trying to make our country safe. We're getting

01:41:56.100 rid of the most dangerous of gangs and criminals and cartels. How is this not the most bipartisan

01:42:02.920 issue that exists in the country? They say they need due process. They need more due process.

01:42:06.280 Right. But not when they illegally came across the border. We didn't get any. You guys have been

01:42:13.180 helping with that. I want to ask you about this. The National Counterterrorism Center's border

01:42:17.480 security has actually helped President Trump quite a bit in nabbing a bunch of these gang

01:42:25.280 members, from what I can see, leads on approximately, what, 750 individuals in the U.S. who have

01:42:30.760 ties to some of these gangs, like Trenda, Aragua, MS-13, and also the Sinaloa cartel.

01:42:37.400 Can we spend some time, let's first speak about that, and then let's spend some time

01:42:41.080 on the cartels, which I saw you recently listed as your number one security concern above Iran,

01:42:48.180 above China, above Russia, the cartels. So let's do it in that order. Sure. The wins at the border

01:42:54.620 and how you guys are helping. So as we started the conversation, we talked about why this

01:42:58.880 organization exists. The ODNI exists to be that integrating element, pulling together information,

01:43:05.680 in this case, from the DEA, who's been focused on these cartels for a very long time because of

01:43:10.500 their counter-narcotics trade. The intelligence that the FBI has collected is they're looking at

01:43:15.660 the criminal activities that these cartels are conducting right here in communities all across

01:43:20.680 the country. You look at the databases that we already have in place and have had in place for

01:43:26.940 a very long time in being able to keep track of known and suspected Islamist terrorists from

01:43:34.140 different parts of the world who may be trying to come into our country. Or did come in under Biden.

01:43:39.240 Well, that's exactly the point. And so, this is kind of the nucleus for all of the intelligence and information that's being collected about all these different individuals. And it allows us, our National Counterterrorism Center, great people who work there, they deliver almost every day on keeping the American people safe.

01:43:59.020 In some of the examples that you mentioned of providing information on these over 750 individuals who we know are members of these three major cartels, just yesterday identifying almost 600 people who are known or suspected terrorists who illegally came into our country, who applied for asylum under Joe Biden's administration, and who were then released out into our country.

01:44:27.200 And so being able to get their names and work with the FBI, work with Department of Homeland Security, for the cartels working with the DEA so that we can find them and either prosecute them or immediately deport them and get them out of our country and to stop them from entering into our country in the first place, either by legal or illegal means.

01:44:49.440 Before we get to the cartels, what's your level of confidence?

01:44:52.720 You can't speak for DHS, but within the intel community, the ones that you guys are identifying,

01:44:58.000 what's your level of confidence that they actually are gang members or cartel members?

01:45:03.380 Because some in the public have been led to believe it's very willy-nilly.

01:45:07.800 You're picking up random hairdressers and deporting them. 0.67

01:45:11.300 How high is the bar before you communicate to the Tom Homans of the world, 0.98

01:45:16.340 it's this one and that one and the other one? 0.98

01:45:18.260 By the time it comes to us here at our National Counterterrorism Center, extensive work has already been done by the DEA, by the FBI, in order for their names to even be entered into our system.

01:45:33.120 So my level of confidence is high because it's high because of the work that I know that these DEA agents are doing, that these FBI agents are doing.

01:45:43.800 My office as the Director of National Intelligence, we have 12 regional representatives all across the country.

01:45:51.560 And I've been spending time getting out to them and having conversations not only with them,

01:45:56.060 and it's usually the FBI special agent in charge of that FBI office,

01:46:00.680 but we have people from every element of the intelligence community,

01:46:03.840 every element of Department of Homeland Security, DEA, all of the domestic law enforcement agencies,

01:46:12.400 And they are working together as a team, sharing that information,

01:46:17.400 working together on these cases to be able to identify who these people are

01:46:21.100 and ultimately to track them down and deport them or arrest and prosecute them.

01:46:26.200 On the subject of the cartels, fentanyl remains the number one killer of Americans.

01:46:32.800 I think it's 18 to 44 now.

01:46:35.220 I mean, it's not just the super young.

01:46:37.920 It's like those are the main years of your life.

01:46:40.440 That's when you're totally thriving.

01:46:41.440 or making a family number one killer and we just did a long special on this the other day because

01:46:47.560 yesterday was national fentanyl awareness day and we were talking with these documentary makers

01:46:52.860 about how they'll flood the border on one side so that the border agents will go over here and

01:46:58.500 then they'll send the fentanyl over on screen right where nobody's covering it because that's

01:47:03.500 their main goal is to get the fentanyl into a country that's desperate for it where we have

01:47:07.340 We're 4.5% of the world, and we're 40% of the fentanyl consumers.

01:47:13.600 So it's crazy.

01:47:17.420 Sounds good, taking on the cartels.

01:47:20.120 Evil, very dangerous.

01:47:22.580 Also sounds like a nightmare of a never-ending war

01:47:26.940 that could turn into some sort of homegrown terrorism problem

01:47:31.100 here in the United States.

01:47:32.520 So how do you calculate the risks here?

01:47:35.580 Well, first of all, I mean, it's already happening. These cartels are already finding their emplacements here, having their own version of a headquarters in different cities and towns across the country.

01:47:50.880 The capabilities of these cartels, we are not underestimating at all. It is quite an eye-opening thing when we look at how their operations are running and their capabilities, and I won't go into detail here, but it really speaks to why President Trump recognized this as this greatest domestic threat,

01:48:16.620 which goes back to the annual threat assessment and where I detailed this and why,

01:48:22.000 and also how the Department of Defense is now working with Department of Homeland Security

01:48:28.020 really to secure our border and will play an integral role in going after and defeating these cartels,

01:48:36.880 working very closely with Mexico and their government and their officials.

01:48:42.400 Can you speak to, it's not just coming from the southern border, right?

01:48:46.580 Now they're going around, they're using the northern border,

01:48:50.040 they're shipping things in from the west coast, the east coast.

01:48:53.880 I mean, we like to think of ourselves as isolated,

01:48:56.920 but we're really not that isolated from these cartels.

01:48:59.440 That's right.

01:49:00.200 And that's where taking this very expansive approach all at once is so essential.

01:49:08.100 No one is naive at all in thinking that this is just going to be like,

01:49:11.960 oh, we'll conduct a few operations and then just knock this all out.

01:49:16.140 But also thinking through very carefully kind of the lessons learned from the last war on drugs

01:49:23.720 that ultimately ended up just being a prolonged war that we never really saw much progress on.

01:49:34.740 Big news today as President Trump announces that he has struck this deal with the Ukrainians

01:49:41.120 for a minerals deal

01:49:42.900 where we're going to have access

01:49:45.520 to some of their rare earth materials.

01:49:48.520 And it's not necessarily a repayment

01:49:51.080 for all of the aid that we've given them,

01:49:53.640 but it gives us a reason

01:49:55.080 to be involved in Ukraine,

01:49:56.800 to look out for Ukraine.

01:49:57.840 And President Trump thinks

01:49:58.940 it'll be a deterrent to Putin

01:50:00.700 in starting things back up again

01:50:02.760 if he's able to put this to bed.

01:50:05.340 The critics say,

01:50:07.100 these are former Biden people,

01:50:08.200 there's nothing to be gained in Ukraine. They don't have the rare minerals that we need. That's

01:50:13.900 why we're all buying the stuff from China to begin with. So we've bought a pig and a poke.

01:50:18.600 What do you say? I don't know why they can't find a single thing that they can agree with

01:50:24.800 the president on. Not a single thing. You know, this deal was very important to the president

01:50:31.600 to get done. And today was a big day. A lot of work went into getting this deal signed today.

01:50:38.200 because he values the fact that, as he talked about earlier in the cabinet meeting today,

01:50:44.780 about how the American taxpayer has provided overall, when you look at all of the aid that's

01:50:49.620 been given to Ukraine since the Russia-Ukraine war started, $350 billion. And when you look at

01:50:56.660 some of the deals that some of the other European countries made with the aid they provided with

01:51:00.600 Ukraine, A, either they used frozen Russian money, so they weren't using their taxpayer dollars,

01:51:07.920 They found a way to give them, you know, frozen money from Russian funds.

01:51:12.220 And in other areas, they said, OK, we'll loan you this money and we'll figure out a payback plan for the future.

01:51:18.780 But not us, not the Biden administration.

01:51:22.740 This money was just given and that's it.

01:51:27.620 So President Trump understood that, was very, very, very bothered by it,

01:51:32.780 the American people are just out of pocket on this without any means of any kind of repayment

01:51:41.940 whatsoever. And so this minerals deal is a way for the American people to get some form of,

01:51:48.920 not return, but some kind of a repayment based on the taxpayer dollars that have been expended

01:51:54.680 and used to pay for someone else's government to be run, to pay for someone else's infrastructure,

01:52:00.660 even outside of all of the weapons system, while we still have communities here who have failing infrastructure,

01:52:06.640 who have poisonous water, who have people still in Western North Carolina who are homeless

01:52:12.580 and don't have the basic needs that they have.

01:52:17.300 And so this deal, yes, of course, he wouldn't have made the deal if they don't have these rare earthen minerals

01:52:24.120 that still need to be mined, but of course we checked.

01:52:30.040 He's not going to go and make a blind deal based on just a handshake.

01:52:34.360 And so this is a win for the American people, and it's a win for the Ukrainian people,

01:52:38.980 because this joint partnership is something that is mutually beneficial for the people of both of our countries.

01:52:43.920 You think about the things we could have used some of that money for, with all due respect to the Ukrainians.

01:52:48.680 I mean, we're talking about the southern border, how porous it is, more agents, 0.96

01:52:52.680 maybe at the northern border, more agents, maybe to inspect some of the cargo that gets shipped in,

01:52:57.620 maybe some treatment programs for people who get addicted to this poison and will be dead,

01:53:02.020 if you play the odds, within 18 months. Maybe more

01:53:05.700 immigration judges so we can give all that due process the Democrats want us to give.

01:53:10.860 There's so many other ways we could have spent that money.

01:53:14.300 I want to go back on, you remember

01:53:17.760 the tragic wildfire that hit my home community

01:53:21.420 of Lahaina. I didn't live there, but it was within my district when I was in

01:53:25.700 Congress and how many lives were lost and an entire town just razed to the ground. And when I

01:53:34.120 went there just a couple of days after that fire happened and went out and talked to the people

01:53:39.200 there on West Maui, and the fact that so many of them, not connected to each other, completely

01:53:45.760 different conversations, different households, different locations, said, gosh, if only we were

01:53:51.740 Ukraine, maybe somebody would pay attention to us. And that just speaks to what we're talking

01:53:58.180 about here. And so this is this community of Lahaina now, who is only now, by the way,

01:54:03.440 just starting to rebuild homes in communities and places where they have lived for generations.

01:54:10.560 We talk about Western North Carolina and the very, very, very slow rebuild process that's

01:54:16.300 going on there, that people who lost their homes are still paying property taxes and mortgages

01:54:21.720 for the land and the home that they have,

01:54:24.700 that they are not able to live on in any way at all.

01:54:29.000 You look at...

01:54:30.180 I don't think I'd do it.

01:54:31.620 I don't think I'd be doing it.

01:54:32.980 That's the thing, is those are two of many examples.

01:54:38.920 You have a level of poverty in West Virginia

01:54:41.440 that I think many Americans would not see 1.00

01:54:46.100 if but going to a third world country

01:54:48.560 on the other side of the planet.

01:54:50.340 The needs that we have here are very real.

01:54:53.680 And part of the dissatisfaction that the American people have had for so long in our government

01:54:57.520 is that the government, by and large, FEMA is a great example.

01:55:01.220 You take all of this money, so much of this money, and it feeds into this bureaucracy.

01:55:06.060 And you have all these officials going to places like Western North Carolina.

01:55:09.500 I went there and you hear the angst in people's voices when they say, no, FEMA hasn't been here.

01:55:15.620 And they're hoarding supplies here or there.

01:55:17.540 They're saying, hey, here you go. Here's 500 bucks. Like, what a freaking insult that is. And then they see what's going on with, oh, we sent another 50 billion to Ukraine today. And then next, oh, we sent another 100 billion. And how people are celebrating that when they're not even looking at what's happening in our own backyard.

01:55:36.160 And this is what I saw and experienced when I was helping President Trump during his election campaign, was that there was a spark of hope in people's hearts when they saw that he was addressing the very things that they were most concerned about, their health and well-being, securing our borders, not allowing boys to play in girls' sports or allowing them into girls' bathrooms,

01:56:01.840 things that are common sense and address the everyday needs of the American people,

01:56:06.300 our security, him being the president of peace and trying to prevent war.

01:56:12.240 This is a shift.

01:56:13.640 This is the beginning of a shift to what we are all seeking to bring about,

01:56:18.160 which is in this 250th anniversary of the founding of our country,

01:56:22.240 how about let's have a government that actually serves the people,

01:56:25.700 a government that is of, by, and for the people.

01:56:29.580 We were talking about Russia briefly.

01:56:31.240 You and I have talked before about how Hillary Clinton labeled you a puppet of Putin, a Russian asset.

01:56:37.700 Debbie Wasserman Schultz, shamefully, said the same.

01:56:41.360 And I saw recently President Trump withdrew Hillary Clinton's security clearance, which you had to do.

01:56:48.060 Yes.

01:56:48.580 That must have been a little fun.

01:56:51.280 Right?

01:56:51.920 Just a little fun.

01:56:54.860 I smiled.

01:56:56.360 Of course you did.

01:56:57.740 You're only human.

01:56:58.960 Yeah, I am.

01:57:00.000 So, yeah, that's over for her.

01:57:02.220 And a number of other people, by the way, when you look at the 51...

01:57:06.220 Mark Zaid, I love that.

01:57:07.620 ...former intelligence officials who signed that Hunter Biden disinformation letter

01:57:11.140 and never apologized for it, never held themselves accountable for it.

01:57:15.960 Yes, Mark Zaid, you had Letitia James and others.

01:57:19.500 Why did she even have one?

01:57:20.360 Well, some of them didn't have clearances, but they had access to classified information.

01:57:24.820 And so we took away that access for those who didn't have clearances.

01:57:30.000 Yes. And there are more to come. And this is part of what we're doing in our investigative work

01:57:36.000 as we go back and look, for example, at Crossfire Hurricane and how there were

01:57:41.140 assistant U.S. attorneys who were knowingly using manufactured testimony, that they would

01:57:49.740 interview a witness, for example, and know that the witness was lying to them, either because

01:57:54.420 they set up the lie or they knew that the witness was lying, took that lie and used it as evidence

01:57:59.760 to get a warrant under FISA to go and surveil on Americans,

01:58:06.400 which is completely illegal.

01:58:09.580 And so these are the kinds of things, those types of people,

01:58:13.600 those assistant U.S. attorneys or those FBI agents

01:58:16.800 that were involved in this kind of stuff,

01:58:19.340 these are crimes that need to be prosecuted

01:58:22.100 and these people need to be held accountable.

01:58:24.560 Will that happen?

01:58:25.500 That will happen.

01:58:26.760 Wow.

01:58:26.920 I mean, it's called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

01:58:29.760 That's right.

01:58:30.220 That's what it's supposed to be used for.

01:58:31.560 Yeah, it's a good reminder.

01:58:32.000 Yeah.

01:58:33.280 On the subject of saving money, you're doing some of that right here.

01:58:36.500 Yes.

01:58:37.340 And in part, it relates to enacting President Trump's DEI directives

01:58:42.020 and pulling back on some of the nonsense that I know you

01:58:45.920 and all the other agencies were spending money on, not you, you,

01:58:48.360 but the intel community.

01:58:50.420 Can you speak to a little bit of what you found?

01:58:52.680 Because you're doing your own doge.

01:58:53.960 You're doing dig.

01:58:55.040 Yes.

01:58:55.640 So that's under you.

01:58:57.980 This is not one of the areas that Elon and Doge came into.

01:59:00.260 You did it on your own, and I understand why.

01:59:02.800 They are helping us.

01:59:04.060 They have incredible tools and a lot of lessons learned through the work that they've done.

01:59:07.760 And so they are helping us and allowing us the opportunity to be able to apply those here.

01:59:12.100 So we're not trying to reinvent the machine at all,

01:59:14.900 and we're able to get after the things we're looking for far more quickly.

01:59:17.280 So how much has gone out the door on DEI programs and hires and so on?

01:59:22.460 So there was a DEI office.

01:59:24.320 That was immediately shut down, and that alone was a savings of around $20 million.

01:59:29.660 But the thing that we just announced today, in fact, was the closure of this Office of Human Capital,

01:59:36.840 completely different part of the organization, and one that sounds like, okay, well, maybe this is like talent management.

01:59:43.260 You're trying to go out and see, well, where is the best talent and where are the gaps we need to fill, which is what I thought.

01:59:48.280 but it turns out that it was an office where the previous administration kind of hid a bunch of

01:59:54.380 their DEI people knowing that this action was going to be taken by President Trump and there

02:00:00.600 was a slush fund there that they would use to fund people millions of dollars to go to DEI conferences

02:00:07.100 and talk to other DEI people and so we shut that down at a savings of 150 million dollars today

02:00:14.160 but the thing that I think a lot of people would be surprised by when people talk about DEI and

02:00:19.820 you hear you know whether CNN MSNBC they talk about DEI and they criticize the president for

02:00:24.960 his action and the actions that we are all taking to get rid of this claiming that we're against 0.96

02:00:29.120 diversity and all of this other crap. When I came in here I was able to talk with some of the people

02:00:35.140 who work here. DEI was such a priority that it was baked into the incentive structure for people

02:00:43.740 to advance professionally here, and I would imagine it was very similar across the federal

02:00:48.060 government, where some employees told me that they were put in a position where they had to spend

02:00:53.140 half of their time working on DEI initiatives in order for them to be able to put it on their

02:01:00.080 annual evaluation, and therefore be noted as, oh, you are more likely to get promoted if you are

02:01:07.180 spending this significant amount of time on this diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives. And for

02:01:12.800 me, I'm like, how in the world would you spend half of your time on that? What were you creating?

02:01:17.220 And I don't really know the answer to that, but I do know the answer to our national security

02:01:22.800 on that question. Because what that means is in the Office of the Director of National Intelligence,

02:01:28.800 and we have people here who work from all across of these 18 intelligence elements,

02:01:34.140 being put in a position where they're told, if you want to get promoted, if you want to advance

02:01:39.680 in your career, the priority is not, are you delivering the best quality intelligence assessments

02:01:45.200 and analysis to best inform the president's most critical decisions? No, you will advance

02:01:51.760 professionally if you show that you're dedicating half of your day towards these DEI initiatives.

02:01:57.740 Your implicit bias. Exactly, exactly. And so when we look at why this was a priority for the

02:02:02.520 president, this is not some superficial thing. There are national security implications to what

02:02:08.760 the Biden administration was doing in centering almost their entire administration around DEI

02:02:14.220 initiatives. You can take this towards any domestic agency. Look at the Department of

02:02:18.400 Education. Shouldn't they be focused on educating our kids? Well, wasn't there a group, which intel

02:02:22.960 agency was it that had the people talking about transgender surgeries and non-binary this?

02:02:29.800 This is the National Security Agency. Yeah, there's sex groups, polyamory. Yeah. I mean,

02:02:34.700 on and on. This is a great example. So there was someone who snuck into that chat that was not a

02:02:44.500 part of, that was not an employee there. And they screenshotted what they saw and leaked it out

02:02:50.320 on X. And again, this is a chat group that was created and administered by the NSA, one of the

02:02:57.000 premier intelligence collection entities that we have. And it was obscene. It was obscene. Yes,

02:03:05.240 it was about all of those things. It was talking about sex toys and sex tricks for people who had 0.92

02:03:11.480 gone through some kind of transgender surgery. During the workday. This is during the workday 0.77

02:03:18.980 on an intelligence-hosted work chat group,

02:03:24.280 and the supervisors,

02:03:27.700 obviously, as soon as I found out about it,

02:03:29.300 I said, anybody who's involved with this

02:03:30.760 is getting fired

02:03:31.640 and getting their security clearance revoked,

02:03:34.240 which there were some who were like,

02:03:36.260 oh, gosh, aren't you?

02:03:37.340 Like, that seems extreme.

02:03:38.320 Like, no.

02:03:39.240 Imagine you're in any office,

02:03:41.280 and you're having these kinds

02:03:42.520 of sexually explicit conversations

02:03:44.280 in the workplace.

02:03:45.900 It is how, I don't care 0.98

02:03:46.840 what's your sexual orientation

02:03:48.440 or whatever your private choices are. 0.76

02:03:50.720 This cannot be happening in the workplace,

02:03:52.520 and it must not be happening

02:03:54.620 in our premier intelligence agency

02:03:57.540 that has people who have the highest clearances

02:04:00.320 that anyone can hold.

02:04:03.620 The plot thickens as many of the leaders

02:04:06.820 feigned shock and surprise at this revelation.

02:04:10.620 Well, this chat group had existed for over two years

02:04:13.720 that this kind of stuff was happening in.

02:04:16.400 And again, this is where transparency and accountability matter so much.

02:04:20.260 As soon as I made that announcement that we will be investigating and holding these people

02:04:24.880 accountable, I started hearing from people who are within the workforce saying, I work

02:04:29.080 at the NSA.

02:04:30.040 I filed a written report with evidence of what was going on in these chat groups a year

02:04:34.980 ago, two years ago when this thing first kicked up.

02:04:37.780 And basically, because of President Biden's DEI initiatives, they were essentially told,

02:04:43.960 shut up.

02:04:44.480 It's none of your business. 1.00

02:04:46.040 Wow.

02:04:46.400 and then there was the cover-up, and then there was the leak.

02:04:49.720 So this is one example of many how we can see what the ramifications have been

02:04:56.460 when we have, in the last administration,

02:05:00.100 one that is seemingly focused on everything but the most important things.

02:05:06.060 Speaking of the last administration, one question for you on SignalGate.

02:05:09.820 As I heard you say this recently,

02:05:11.360 Is this the first administration to use Signal for confidential chats?

02:05:17.520 Absolutely not.

02:05:18.920 I mean, you actually saw something that told you this was, in fact, being used by the Biden administration,

02:05:23.920 who are out there all over X and other social media,

02:05:27.060 ripping everyone who was on that SignalGate thread to shreds.

02:05:31.600 That is correct.

02:05:32.700 So there's no question in your mind this was used during the Biden administration by officials?

02:05:35.740 I know for certain that it was, to include national security officials.

02:05:41.360 Is there another way to communicate?

02:05:43.060 Like, are we stuck with signals?

02:05:44.160 So the main means of communication for all of us,

02:05:47.420 like in this building, this entire building is a secure facility.

02:05:52.700 That means that if you go outside of this lobby,

02:05:55.960 there's a bunch of lock boxes over there

02:05:57.600 where you've got to lock your phone in,

02:05:59.180 you've got to lock your Apple Watch or your Oura Ring,

02:06:02.700 anything that transmits a signal gets locked up

02:06:08.680 by everyone who works here and everyone who visits here,

02:06:11.220 before you leave this lobby.

02:06:13.000 How are you supposed to count your steps?

02:06:15.600 Good luck.

02:06:16.940 Take the stairs.

02:06:18.120 The old-fashioned way.

02:06:19.200 Exactly.

02:06:20.060 But so the vast majority of the communication that happens

02:06:23.440 is through secure telephones and secure computers

02:06:26.220 and things that are built in to our work environments.

02:06:30.740 However, I do have to leave the building at times,

02:06:33.940 and things have to keep moving and rolling.

02:06:35.780 Same goes for those who work in the White House

02:06:38.900 and those who work across the administration.

02:06:40.420 So at times, for practical purposes, you have to be able to communicate on the go.

02:06:45.500 Signal has been recognized by the federal government during the Biden administration, by the way, in December of 2024, as the preferred messaging app because it provides that end-to-end encryption that makes it, you know, nothing is completely secure, but it is the most secure option if you need to use it.

02:07:08.100 You feel like it was unfair to Pete and Mike Walls? I mean, they took the brunt of it.

02:07:12.180 Yeah, I mean, you know, it shouldn't have happened. There are sensitive conversations

02:07:16.080 that occur in these Signal chats, but ultimately it was not at all what those who are opposing

02:07:26.220 the president's policies and those in the media made it out to be. And I can tell you that there

02:07:31.260 some of the most vocal critics of that whole situation

02:07:35.660 who also use Signal and communicate things

02:07:39.080 that they would not want released publicly as well.

02:07:41.380 Not surprised.

02:07:42.340 Exactly.

02:07:43.340 As I've listened to you over this hour,

02:07:45.680 I've had one thought recur to me over and over and over,

02:07:48.900 and it is first female president.

02:07:51.520 That is what I, like, I look at you and I see it. 0.93

02:07:54.840 And I know they put you through the meat grinder the last time,

02:07:58.300 but that was the other side.

02:08:01.260 Now you've crossed over.

02:08:03.460 And so I just wonder.

02:08:04.780 Thank you for not saying transition.

02:08:07.140 People use that word.

02:08:08.300 It's like, okay, that's one of those words

02:08:10.080 that's like for a certain thing.

02:08:12.040 It's no.

02:08:13.280 But notwithstanding how rough that was

02:08:17.760 when you ran for president the first time,

02:08:20.860 have you ruled out ever doing it again?

02:08:22.800 Could we potentially see a Tulsi 2028 try?

02:08:26.680 I will never rule out any opportunity to serve my country.

02:08:34.320 I would not have, if we had talked a year ago, the thought would not have crossed my mind that

02:08:41.560 I would be here and that we would be having this conversation. My decisions in my life have always

02:08:49.200 been made around how can I best be of service to God? How can I best be of service to our country?

02:08:54.660 and that is what has led me here.

02:08:58.900 I'm grateful for this opportunity

02:09:00.480 and I will continue to chase those opportunities

02:09:03.220 where I can make the most positive impact

02:09:05.880 and be of service.

02:09:06.800 And now you and I sit here having done something

02:09:11.140 the two of us back in 2016

02:09:13.160 never would have thought we would have done

02:09:14.580 which was stood up on a stage and endorsed Donald Trump.

02:09:17.980 Now you're working for him.

02:09:19.420 I endorsed him too.

02:09:21.400 It was so great. I was there.

02:09:23.620 I remember.

02:09:23.900 It was such a powerful moment and speech that you delivered because of your history with him.

02:09:33.620 You are very generous to even mention that.

02:09:35.140 What you did for President Trump was huge.

02:09:37.120 And seeing you up there and announcing, like, your partisan change, you were with Trump.

02:09:42.600 It was this, that was like the team of rivals or the Marvel universe coming together.

02:09:47.880 The Avengers.

02:09:48.500 Yeah, the Avengers.

02:09:49.100 You're one of them.

02:09:49.860 You're one of the most, and the gray streak is part of it.

02:09:52.860 It just works.

02:09:53.900 But I wonder if you do decide to do something in the future, running for president or individual executive leadership, what have you learned from him?

02:10:04.240 What would you want to take away from the kind of leader Trump is?

02:10:08.720 He's a very bold leader.

02:10:11.940 And as we see, he's making decisions

02:10:14.460 without care for what the media chirps about him

02:10:20.660 or what his so-called critics may say about him.

02:10:25.860 And he's quite masterful at it, by the way.

02:10:31.580 You know, he's been so effective

02:10:36.200 at connecting with the American people

02:10:38.520 in ways that I think a lot of the politicians

02:10:42.340 or the so-called political pundits here in Washington, D.C.

02:10:48.240 never really understood, and maybe a lot of them still don't.

02:10:52.340 But it really comes from a place of care,

02:10:55.880 his care for the American people.

02:10:58.320 He doesn't need to do this.

02:10:59.360 He didn't need to put himself through all this.

02:11:00.860 He didn't need to put himself in a position

02:11:02.500 where there were two assassination attempts on his life.

02:11:06.700 And the kind of bold change that we're seeing happening now across the government,

02:11:12.680 it's never happened like this under any other president.

02:11:17.040 So I really respect his boldness and his courage in doing things

02:11:22.360 that sometimes people don't understand or see how it's going to turn out.

02:11:29.440 Those are things we see in you too, boldness, courage,

02:11:32.120 and you share something else with him, which is fearlessly independent.

02:11:35.940 And that's what's going to take you forward.

02:11:38.960 Thank you so much.

02:11:39.780 It's wonderful to see you.

02:11:40.920 Thank you very much.

02:11:41.580 Good luck with everything.

02:11:42.560 Thank you.

02:11:43.320 I mean, all of you are going to get in this environment.

02:11:47.120 Yeah, my money's on you.

02:11:48.180 I appreciate that.

02:11:48.920 Thank you, Megan.

02:11:49.360 Lots of love.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - June 21, 2026

Marco Rubio and Tulsi Gabbard - Megyn Kelly's ＂Double Feature＂ of Fascinating Interviews

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