The Megyn Kelly Show - Media Spreading Hamas Propaganda, and COVID Vaccine Lawsuits, with Michael Oren, Arthur Aidala, and Jonna Spilbor

00:00:00.500 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:11.860 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.280 Israel enters Gaza, protests erupt around the world, and Jewish students at Cornell University

00:00:22.260 in Ithaca, New York. This is a stone's throw away from where I lived the first 10 years of my life

00:00:28.280 as a child and went to college, Syracuse University. This is unbelievable to me. You know how I'm

00:00:34.660 always saying? I like people from upstate New York. They make sense. This is a little bit more central

00:00:38.940 slash western New York. Same rule applies, though, but not at Cornell. Because as you know,

00:00:44.700 on university campuses, anything goes. The left is unrecognizable, even to most of the left these

00:00:52.020 days. Jewish students there threatened with messages calling for them to be hunted and to

00:00:58.740 have their throats slit. In just minutes, I'm going to be speaking with one of the most important voices

00:01:04.120 on what we are witnessing right now, Israel's former ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren.

00:01:10.280 He was born in New Jersey, wound up going over to Israel, staying there, and became their ambassador

00:01:15.280 to the U.S. And he's got a lot of thoughts on what we're seeing these days. But first, I'm going to

00:01:21.640 walk you through the developments that happened this weekend. In Brooklyn, New York, on Saturday,

00:01:26.960 some 7000 protesters took to the Brooklyn Bridge as Jewish people were warned, avoid the area. Again,

00:01:34.480 I have to pause. This is New York. This is America. The answer from the NYPD or the authorities at

00:01:42.280 Cornell or the authorities at Cooper Union, that other college incident we saw last week, is not

00:01:47.020 avoid the area Jews. It's all hands on deck when it comes to the cops and security. And Jews are

00:01:54.560 welcome here just like anywhere else in any square foot of America because this is America. I don't

00:02:00.240 understand this. Jews stay home. That's not the way forward. That's not the way forward. According to

00:02:07.540 Fox News, one demonstrator told the crowd, we are going to liberate Palestine. We liberated parts

00:02:13.280 of it already. So get ready to get barbecued. The protesters scaled a statue of George Washington

00:02:20.760 waving the Palestinian flag. This video, courtesy of friend of the show, Julio Rosas, he's been on

00:02:27.540 before, who, like he always is, was on scene to document it all. The crowd chanted Allahu Akbar,

00:02:33.500 and at least one protester was heard saying long live Hamas. Look at this. Hamas cheerleaders

00:02:40.080 in Brooklyn, New York. Allahu Akbar. Really? Okay. It was all too much for one Israeli man who

00:02:47.420 confronted the protesters in a fiery exchange. They murdered my family, these fucking assholes.

00:02:53.840 Jews. They murdered our people. They murdered babies. They cut their heads off. This is what

00:03:00.420 you should pay. All the Muslim countries, nobody wants to open the border to take this garbage,

00:03:04.420 right? Genocide. That's why Muslim countries opened the border to take this garbage. Nobody

00:03:10.420 want. Genocide. You support genocide. Nobody want those people.

00:03:15.500 Shame on you. Shame on you. Shame on you. Shame on you.

00:03:21.000 Jewish, proud Israeli, and all these supporters, whatever they did in Israel,

00:03:26.400 this is more worse than the Holocaust. And they will do it here as they, if they can. And they did

00:03:32.860 it on September 11. Don't forget that. Hmm. Overseas, the images were just as dramatic.

00:03:39.560 In London, around 100,000 protesters. Look at this in front of Big Ben. I mean, it's shoulder to

00:03:47.540 shoulder. Flooded the city for the third consecutive weekend. A sound system led people to chant,

00:03:53.020 stop arming Israel, stop bombing Gaza, and we are all Palestinian. And look at this video. It shows a

00:04:01.140 masked man walking and waving the jihadist flag used by al-Qaeda and ISIS. Stay on message, sir,

00:04:08.720 or wait. Are you? Are you? Journalist Andy Ngo posted video showing protesters chanting Allahu Akbar

00:04:16.100 near the statue of Winston Churchill. Watch.

00:04:19.420 In total, 11 people were arrested, including two for assaulting police officers. This was the scene

00:04:37.600 in Istanbul, Turkey, where President Erdogan told the crowd, Hamas is not a terrorist organization.

00:04:44.700 Israel is an occupier. Look at this film. My goodness, it's a sea of people. Erdogan then

00:04:53.660 declared Israel, quote, a war criminal. And late last night, truly terrifying videos began to emerge

00:04:59.520 out of Russia when a flight from Tel Aviv landed in the Republican of Dagestan. Pro-Palestinian rioters

00:05:07.460 there stormed the airport and began searching, openly searching and running after people they believed

00:05:13.940 might be Israeli passengers from that Tel Aviv flight. They demanded to see people's passports

00:05:19.820 and documents, breaking down doors, hoping to find the Israelis or Jewish citizens hiding in fear. Watch.

00:05:28.060 ...

00:05:34.940 ...

00:05:41.880 ...

00:05:49.800 I think about this.

00:06:14.160 You're yelling Allahu Akbar.

00:06:15.440 It means Allah is great.

00:06:17.740 Can you imagine?

00:06:19.800 Can you imagine?

00:06:20.840 I mean, look, I am a Catholic, so I understand Christianity.

00:06:25.240 Can't imagine committing this kind of an atrocity or trying to hunt down a Jew or a Muslim or

00:06:30.720 a Hindu or a Buddhist, trying to hurt them, kill them, yelling, God is great.

00:06:36.420 Yeah, my God is great.

00:06:37.600 My God wants this.

00:06:38.980 Think of this.

00:06:39.500 This is so sick and twisted.

00:06:41.440 It's not all Muslims.

00:06:42.520 One of my best friends literally in New York is Muslim.

00:06:45.280 She's absolutely lovely.

00:06:46.480 They don't all feel this way.

00:06:47.940 What's happening here is an abomination in the name of God.

00:06:52.320 OK.

00:06:52.540 Last night, there were reports that no Israeli citizens were on that flight, which seemed

00:06:58.120 odd since it was coming from Tel Aviv.

00:07:00.800 But overnight, the Jerusalem Post reported that indeed there were and that the Israelis

00:07:05.400 were hidden within the airport complex until police could control the riot.

00:07:10.920 They were then evacuated by a helicopter to an undisclosed location.

00:07:15.160 I mean, that is actually quite impressive.

00:07:17.220 And one wonders how that happened.

00:07:20.080 Who was helping them?

00:07:21.520 Apparently, this is a heavily Muslim area into which the Tel Aviv flight was was flying.

00:07:27.900 And as you know, you know, the Russians and the Muslims have had their own problems.

00:07:32.820 And so who helped them?

00:07:35.300 Was it employees at Tel Aviv there understanding that they were in danger?

00:07:39.200 We'll find out more in the coming days here at home.

00:07:42.100 Jewish students also ford forced to hide in fear inside their dorm rooms.

00:07:46.780 This is unbelievable.

00:07:47.540 On an American campus in the state of New York, Cornell.

00:07:51.280 This is another Ivy League.

00:07:53.160 We got Harvard.

00:07:54.040 We got we got Yale.

00:07:56.200 We've seen UPenn, all Ivy League, Cornell University in Ithaca.

00:07:59.920 Another one, Ithaca, New York, now on high alert after deeply disturbing messages found

00:08:04.660 online.

00:08:06.280 One message calling for Jewish students to be followed home and their throats slit, saying

00:08:11.900 rats need to be eliminated from Cornell.

00:08:14.320 This is outrageous.

00:08:15.240 I have a young friend who's at Cornell right now.

00:08:17.780 She's Jewish.

00:08:18.800 She and her mother cannot believe their eyes.

00:08:21.720 She wanted to get a great education.

00:08:23.660 That's why she she wasn't expected to be targeted for her religious beliefs, for something

00:08:28.340 happening a world away.

00:08:29.920 A separate message calling for Jewish students to be raped and killed, quote, before they

00:08:35.500 birthed more Jewish Hitlers.

00:08:37.780 It's been over three weeks since the October 7th terror attack on Israelis.

00:08:43.020 The terror inside the border kibbutz and at the music festival is now being felt worldwide

00:08:49.380 by Israelis, by Jews.

00:08:51.100 And just when you think you know what happened that awful day, horrifying new details emerge.

00:08:58.420 I did something this this weekend that I've never done with my team before, and that is

00:09:03.600 before I sent them this news link, I actually said I need to include a viewer warning.

00:09:09.480 Like to my own team, I mean, we're all news people.

00:09:12.940 We've seen the worst of the worst.

00:09:15.440 But you can't just share something like this in a group text without a heads up that something

00:09:21.680 terrible is coming.

00:09:22.600 And if we start doing that, we've lost some of our humanity.

00:09:25.920 It's not OK, just these casual references to the inhumanity of Hamas.

00:09:30.720 Like we need to pause before we just dump this stuff on you.

00:09:34.620 And you need to pause while you're reading X or reading online the disturbing details of

00:09:41.120 what Hamas did, because it's.

00:09:43.040 It's soul shaking.

00:09:47.640 That is the story I'm about to bring you, so if you care not to hear it, now's the time

00:09:52.120 to turn out.

00:09:53.700 It's a story told by Ellie Beer.

00:09:57.020 Ellie's the founder and president of a Jerusalem-based emergency response organization.

00:10:01.820 By all accounts, he has a stellar reputation.

00:10:03.620 He's appeared on CNN, Fox, countless other media outlets over the past few weeks and recently

00:10:09.880 met with President Biden when Mr. Biden was in Israel.

00:10:13.840 On Saturday at the Republican Jewish Coalition Conference in Las Vegas, Beer took to the stage

00:10:19.060 and talked about the horrors he says he and his rescuers saw, which included, forgive me,

00:10:26.020 a baby found in an oven.

00:10:29.400 I saw little kids who are beheaded.

00:10:33.760 We didn't know which head belongs to which kid.

00:10:36.860 I was crying for five days straight.

00:10:39.120 I couldn't get out.

00:10:39.840 I couldn't stop crying.

00:10:41.780 See, little children, some of them had grandparents who were Holocaust survivors and they were murdered

00:10:48.560 in a Holocaust in Israel in 2023.

00:10:53.060 Little babies, little children, you couldn't even recognize if they were kids.

00:10:57.560 They couldn't, we couldn't even recognize we saw a little baby in an oven.

00:11:00.860 They put them in, these bastards put these babies in an oven and put on their oven.

00:11:05.260 We found the kid a few hours later.

00:11:09.120 There's just, there's no words to describe what the Israelis went through.

00:11:16.840 And all of this explains what we're seeing right now as they try to take out Hamas, the

00:11:22.600 group behind that terror attack.

00:11:24.780 Joining me now, former Israeli ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren.

00:11:29.060 Ambassador, thank you so much for being here.

00:11:30.680 I mean, the horrors, they continue to come out to the world.

00:11:35.280 And yet my fear is they're not going to change anything.

00:11:38.900 They're not going to change these protests on the street.

00:11:40.940 The college students aren't going to listen.

00:11:43.440 It's already turned into a both sides kind of thing.

00:11:48.400 How does Israel get out from under that?

00:11:49.940 Well, Megan, good to be with you.

00:11:54.360 Thank you.

00:11:55.280 You know, full disclosure, I actually serve as an advisor to Elliot Beer's organization,

00:12:00.400 Atzala.

00:12:01.200 It's an amazing organization.

00:12:02.680 It's almost 8,000 paramedic volunteers who, free of charge, treat Jews, Arabs, Christians,

00:12:10.860 and they themselves are Jews, Arabs, and Christians.

00:12:14.200 Two of these volunteers were killed during the attack of Hamas.

00:12:19.940 So, and I know Elliot well.

00:12:21.620 He's an extraordinary human being.

00:12:23.360 But just listening to him talk, and I've heard him say this to me personally, it just

00:12:27.460 brings us back.

00:12:28.120 Because in so many ways, we in Israel are still on October 7th.

00:12:32.180 We have moved beyond it because we're hearing these stories all the time.

00:12:35.720 Just several hours ago, for the first time, Megan, I saw pictures of those bodies,

00:12:40.220 the babies' bodies.

00:12:43.180 And I can't describe it.

00:12:45.340 You know, I'm an old warrior.

00:12:46.480 I've been in the Army for many years, in the war many times.

00:12:50.080 I've never seen one of them.

00:12:51.500 I just haven't.

00:12:52.460 And they're barely recognizable as human beings, as babies, adults.

00:12:57.300 You can't really tell.

00:12:58.580 We have between 100 and 200 bodies that we can't identify.

00:13:03.820 You know, how rare that is you can't identify a body that can't get DNA out of them?

00:13:07.480 And that's how thoroughly they were incinerated and mutilated.

00:13:13.560 You know, we've compared the Hamas to animals.

00:13:17.360 I think it's an insult to the animal kingdom.

00:13:19.220 Animals would never do this to another living creature.

00:13:22.600 Never.

00:13:22.780 So there, and you're, on top of everything out, is what's going on in Cornell.

00:13:27.820 Last night I had a conference call, a Zoom call with the pro-Israel community at Cornell.

00:13:35.580 They are living in panic.

00:13:37.620 They've had to shut down the Center for Jewish Living.

00:13:41.120 People have been barricading themselves in libraries at Cooper Union in New York.

00:13:44.500 And what's almost as bad as the assaults on American Jews, and it's going on around the world, not just in America, is the silence.

00:13:52.920 It's the anti-Semitism of silence.

00:13:54.480 The silence of Hollywood stars and silence of university presidents as those Ivy League colleges that you were mentioning.

00:14:03.340 Silence is horrible.

00:14:04.300 And there's a deep and profound moral failing.

00:14:10.860 And I've written, I have my, I have a substack called Clarity when I write about this.

00:14:16.680 But I actually wrote it this week on Barry Weiss's substack on honesty.

00:14:22.300 Barry's an old student of mine.

00:14:24.000 I wrote a book called The Second War Against the Jews.

00:14:27.400 The first one, of course, being the Holocaust.

00:14:29.520 This is not a war against Israel.

00:14:31.560 This is a war against the Jewish people.

00:14:33.560 Globally, whether it's in Dagestan or London or in Paris or in Ithaca, New York, it's a war against the Jewish people.

00:14:44.500 And we've been here before.

00:14:47.360 We've suffered before, but we have prevailed.

00:14:49.980 And we have survived and we thrived.

00:14:53.080 For Israel, this is clearly a war of survival.

00:14:57.680 This is a war, an existential war.

00:14:59.580 And one of the biggest threats we face.

00:15:01.620 Forget the face of Hezbollah from Iran, from Hamas, the hostage situations.

00:15:07.660 The number of hostages keep on going up because we're finding out more and more.

00:15:12.300 They're now topping 230, going up to close to 240 hostages.

00:15:17.880 The great fear, the great threat we're facing, believe it or not, is a ceasefire.

00:15:24.140 Now, Hamas is very smart.

00:15:25.920 They're going to release hostages or videos of the hostages one at a time.

00:15:29.780 They're going to talk about how wonderful they're being treated by Hamas.

00:15:32.180 And their one demand will be for a ceasefire.

00:15:35.380 And in the international community, they're going to say, well, what's wrong with a ceasefire?

00:15:39.920 These fires are good.

00:15:40.960 Look, it's an ameliorative word.

00:15:43.160 It's good.

00:15:43.680 People aren't going to shoot each other.

00:15:44.760 People are going to die.

00:15:45.460 Why can't we have a ceasefire?

00:15:47.860 Megan, a ceasefire for Israel is death.

00:15:52.180 Simply put, death.

00:15:53.900 And I'll explain why.

00:15:55.300 Ceasefire means that Hamas gets away with mass murder of the worst, most heinous strike.

00:16:03.180 Mass murder.

00:16:03.700 A ceasefire means Israel will never be able to restore its internal security.

00:16:09.140 We have 300,000 evacuees living in hotels, living in other people's houses.

00:16:15.420 They won't be able to go back to their homes.

00:16:17.880 You have children.

00:16:18.860 Would you bring your children back to a border community that has sustained that type of carnage?

00:16:25.300 And Hamas is not deterred.

00:16:26.820 Hamas is allowed to restore its arsenals, make new plans for the next attack.

00:16:32.220 And a ceasefire means we can't restore our deterrence power, not just against Hamas, but against Hezbollah, against Iran, against all our enemies in the region.

00:16:42.240 The word was out.

00:16:43.600 Israel is vulnerable.

00:16:44.480 You can attack Israel with impunity.

00:16:46.320 When Israel goes to defend itself, the international community will impose a ceasefire, and you'll get away with it.

00:16:52.860 That's what ceasefire means.

00:16:53.960 So, you know, I don't carry a gun anymore, alas, I mean it.

00:16:59.000 But my job is to go out to try to explain to the world why the ceasefire means death for the state of Israel.

00:17:06.300 It's a hard job.

00:17:07.540 We'll be doing it tonight again, news.

00:17:09.100 But that has to be our message.

00:17:11.460 We need time and space for our army to undertake perhaps the most difficult missions ever undertaken, fighting in the streets, alleys of Gaza, which are booby-trapped in mine.

00:17:23.700 But it's also what's beneath the streets, the hundreds of miles of tunnels and bunkers, some of them hundreds of feet beneath the surface.

00:17:30.280 That's where the real war is going to be fought.

00:17:31.760 And somewhere down there are our hostages.

00:17:34.100 Imagine that.

00:17:35.560 And all the time, we have 150,000 rockets in the hands of Zizpala pointed at our heads.

00:17:41.160 And Iran rockets pointed at our heads.

00:17:43.200 Rockets in the hands of shit and lishas in Iraq.

00:17:45.260 Rockets in the hands of Houthi rebels in Yemen, backed by Iran.

00:17:50.960 We are very grateful for the help we've been given by the Biden administration, by the United States, at a time when I'd say there's bipartisan support for not getting involved in foreign

00:18:01.740 military attackments, again, specifically not in the Middle East.

00:18:04.700 We have these two very large naval carrier strike forces in our region.

00:18:10.760 And we're very appreciative of the deterrence that they are affecting against Zizpala and Iran.

00:18:17.320 At the end of the day, Israel has to defend itself at great cost of our own soldiers.

00:18:23.720 Last night I went down south near Gaza.

00:18:27.860 The light, the sky was lit up by rockets.

00:18:29.720 And I visited my old paratrooper unit.

00:18:34.700 These kids are 18 years old.

00:18:38.380 And to me, they look like, you know, children with guns.

00:18:42.120 But this unit had been one of the first units to respond to the attacks on October 7th.

00:18:46.680 Kibbutz, Bari, Yeritschak, Farhaza.

00:18:52.280 The things they saw there, no human being should ever witness.

00:18:56.900 And they fought.

00:18:58.040 And something didn't come home.

00:18:59.740 And I saw on the faces of these children, I saw aged faces.

00:19:05.280 Aged faces.

00:19:06.520 Children with very old faces with guns.

00:19:09.700 And they're going back to battle.

00:19:12.780 They're going back into battle.

00:19:13.960 And they know it.

00:19:14.460 And I saw the same fear on the faces of those Cornell students I spoke to last.

00:19:21.240 It was unnerving.

00:19:23.740 I said, unnerving.

00:19:26.120 The age of the Israeli soldiers.

00:19:29.800 I mean, it's just, I have a 14-year-old boy, I cannot imagine in four years, him having

00:19:35.560 to go into a place like Gaza and fight and fight for his life and for the life of his

00:19:40.580 countrymen.

00:19:41.320 I will say this.

00:19:42.820 A friend of mine and a Jewish American just wrote me a long, thoughtful email about the

00:19:47.960 whole conflict.

00:19:49.200 And she was raising a good point.

00:19:51.620 She said, in Israel, mandatory military service takes place, I think, for three years, starting

00:19:56.360 at 18.

00:19:56.880 And she said, and that's what the Israelis do.

00:20:00.560 They go, they learn about defending their country, about honor, about working as a team,

00:20:07.320 about what it means to be an Israeli.

00:20:09.600 Here in the United States, what do we do when our kids turn 18?

00:20:12.580 We send them to college for four years of indoctrination in radical far-left thinking.

00:20:17.540 We try intentionally to drive wedges between them and their parents, them and their country.

00:20:21.880 We try to have people with a radical agenda imprint their beliefs on our children, as

00:20:27.260 opposed to helping our children figure out how to critically think for themselves.

00:20:30.620 It's such a diversion between the way Israel treats its young teens and the way we treat

00:20:37.820 our teens.

00:20:39.220 Not that anybody wants to see their 18-year-old go off to war.

00:20:42.460 And yet, what choice did Israel have?

00:20:44.600 Yeah, I know.

00:20:47.320 It's one of the reasons that wokeism hasn't taken root, really, here, is the fact that

00:20:51.980 our young people, by the time they hit universities, they have flown F-16s, they have commanded tanks.

00:20:58.620 Many have seen action.

00:21:00.700 Some of them are married already.

00:21:01.780 And so, when a professor gets up there and talks about these things, you know, about critical

00:21:08.460 race theory or microaggressions, they look at them and say, well, you've got to be kidding.

00:21:12.640 It's very different if you're a very impressionable 18-year-old.

00:21:15.420 And this is the first, you know, major authority you're seeing telling you these things.

00:21:19.720 So, it is a bulwark against that.

00:21:22.420 It is.

00:21:23.360 But, Megan, I don't have words for these kids, for these young people.

00:21:27.660 No, I don't.

00:21:30.300 They're beautiful and they're brave.

00:21:34.060 And I think just about all Israelis understand that we have no choice here, that they have

00:21:40.520 to go forth and defend us.

00:21:42.460 Well, like you said, I mean, if for no other reason than deterrence, if you don't, you're

00:21:47.920 going to be seen as an even bigger target than you already are.

00:21:50.080 That's Israel's only way forward.

00:21:51.560 If they don't, if they do not eliminate Hamas right now, others are going to see an opportunity.

00:21:55.920 I know you've written about this in the past.

00:21:57.660 Let me ask you a question coming from the other side, the other argument, you know,

00:22:02.560 from people who are pro-Palestinian, I'll put it that way, to be charitable, who say

00:22:07.560 there's no military solution to be had.

00:22:10.420 That we've seen these skirmishes, you know, mowing the lawn over the past 20 years or however

00:22:16.040 long it's been, since 2005, since Gaza was returned entirely to Hamas.

00:22:21.220 And nothing ever gets solved with rockets or return rocket fire, death, beginning death

00:22:27.300 on small scales or large scales.

00:22:29.440 And, you know, you listen to these pro-Palestinian advocates and they basically say,

00:22:33.120 I don't even think they want a two-state solution exactly, Ambassador.

00:22:37.160 I think they want a one-state solution that doesn't involve Israel.

00:22:41.000 But what kind of peaceful resolution could there possibly be?

00:22:46.380 So, again, you know, citing my old age here, I started off my public career as an advisor

00:22:54.040 to the Ishaq robbing government in 1993, at the time of the Oslo force.

00:22:58.480 And I've been through every peace process.

00:23:02.380 I actually participated in the last round of discussions, negotiations with the Palestinians.

00:23:05.840 And one of the big problems is we talk in terms of solutions.

00:23:10.180 There are not a lot of solutions for many problems in the place.

00:23:13.340 There's not a solution for Syria.

00:23:14.580 There's not a solution for Egypt.

00:23:17.060 You know, the solution is not going to be had, but there are better ways of managing it.

00:23:23.040 One of the big impediments to managing it better is the belief that there's a solution.

00:23:28.260 And that's not going to happen.

00:23:29.260 But certainly there is a solution to the grave damage done to Israel's deterrence power,

00:23:37.220 to our internal security, and to the relationship between the people of Israel and the state of Israel.

00:23:42.960 Because, to say very frankly, on October 7th and 8th, the state kind of let us down, right?

00:23:49.700 Whether it be the military, at least let us down.

00:23:52.120 So we have to restore that relationship.

00:23:54.320 We have a social contract, just like every other state.

00:23:56.580 This social contract was a very particular social contract because Israel was created three years,

00:24:03.040 almost to the date, after the end of the Holocaust.

00:24:05.580 And the promise this country made to the Jewish people was that a second Holocaust couldn't happen,

00:24:10.180 that Jews would be secure here.

00:24:12.120 And that social contract sustains some pretty significant shredding on October 7th and 8th,

00:24:18.760 those two horrible days.

00:24:20.100 We have to restore that.

00:24:20.940 We cannot do that without a military response.

00:24:24.840 Hamas can be uprooted.

00:24:28.460 It can be driven out of its tunnels.

00:24:30.200 It can be mowed down.

00:24:32.620 Whatever verb you want to use, it will no longer be in control of the Gaza Strip.

00:24:40.500 And you can say you can't get rid of the idea of Hamas, and that's true.

00:24:44.080 Anymore, you can get rid of the idea of ISIS or Al-Qaeda.

00:24:48.080 Anymore, you can get rid of the idea of Nazism.

00:24:50.400 But the fact that there is no Nazi Germany today means that neo-Nazis do not have the power that they have.

00:24:59.320 The Nazis had in the 1930s, 1940s.

00:25:02.380 The fact that the United States degraded ISIS and Al-Qaeda greatly reduced the threats of those two terrorist organizations.

00:25:09.680 You know, there's no solution by bombs and bullets.

00:25:13.960 Tell that to Nazi Germany.

00:25:15.620 Tell that to Imperial Japan.

00:25:16.960 I think there were some solutions there, too.

00:25:19.700 Are they perfect solutions?

00:25:20.940 No.

00:25:21.220 But in our region, we want to be able to manage the conflict, to make progress where we can make progress.

00:25:28.880 But in the meanwhile, we want to live.

00:25:30.940 We want to develop what has become one of the most successful countries in the world in every area.

00:25:35.760 And we can only do this if we have basic security.

00:25:38.820 And that's what we have to restore.

00:25:40.000 Right now, things are changing militarily in Gaza.

00:25:45.860 This is according to Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari, the chief military spokesperson in the New York Times, saying,

00:25:51.920 The current stage of the operation, a combined force of infantry tanks and armored units are now attempting to move toward groups of armed Palestinian operatives inside Gaza.

00:26:00.880 He said overnight, dozens of terrorists were eliminated, declining to specify how many Israeli troops were inside Gaza.

00:26:07.200 Israel's defense minister this month outlined three phases of a battle plan.

00:26:12.740 One, intense airstrikes.

00:26:14.400 Two, eliminating pockets of resistance.

00:26:17.000 Three, creating a new security reality for the citizens of Israel, we presume by ending Hamas's rule.

00:26:25.040 And they are—it's not a full-ground invasion, from what we can tell, into Gaza right now, though what we're able to observe is limited.

00:26:32.660 They've cut a lot of the communications.

00:26:33.940 But definitely Israel has stepped up its attacks on Gaza.

00:26:39.640 And I'll tell you, one of the things—and you know this better than anybody—that you're up against is not just Hamas and its evil, but the media, which enables it.

00:26:50.780 This morning, I turned on NPR's Up First, a podcast, a short podcast that many people listen to to start the day.

00:26:58.680 It's one of the top podcasts in the country, actually, news-wise.

00:27:01.620 And one of the first things I heard was all about the devastation of the poor Palestinians said something.

00:27:08.080 I think they said 6,000 dead, a number that has not been verified.

00:27:11.740 They didn't even bother to source it.

00:27:13.640 I mean, at least the other papers said, oh, according to Palestinian Health Ministry, which we now know is Hamas,

00:27:18.560 and all these papers were embarrassed having run with that hospital attack.

00:27:22.100 But even today, she didn't even bother to source it on NPR.

00:27:24.760 Just 6,000 Palestinians dead.

00:27:26.600 Really?

00:27:26.880 Are there?

00:27:27.480 According to whom?

00:27:28.320 Says who?

00:27:29.200 So you have the media working against you and the Hollywood crowd here in America working against you.

00:27:37.060 And this growing leftist belief on college campuses and beyond that Israel's an occupier,

00:27:43.060 that Israel's created in an apartheid state, that this boils down to skin color.

00:27:47.560 And so there is a PR war that needs to be waged, and Hamas is very good at it.

00:27:52.060 So what does Israel do on that front?

00:27:54.840 First of all, I think, let me just say something about the unrest on campuses and some of these protests around the world

00:28:00.280 and some of these media outlets like the BBC, I can't help but see beyond or beneath the anti-Semitism

00:28:08.780 to locate a deep self-loathing.

00:28:12.960 These people not only hate Israel, they hate their own country.

00:28:16.020 They hate their own civilization.

00:28:18.000 And they understand something that should be understood by everybody,

00:28:21.720 that this is not a war between Israel and Hamas.

00:28:23.480 It's a war between civilization and evil.

00:28:26.360 Their problem is they view their own civilization as evil.

00:28:28.660 And somehow in a Christian universe, Hamas becomes good.

00:28:32.860 And that's precisely what's going on in these campuses.

00:28:34.520 Ask these same people who are protesting for Israel's destruction,

00:28:37.740 what do they think America is a force for good in the world?

00:28:40.340 Whether America is an exceptional country.

00:28:41.920 Whether America stands for anything worthwhile.

00:28:44.760 I think you'll get a very similar answer.

00:28:46.340 That's my gut feeling.

00:28:47.760 Do you agree with me, Megan?

00:28:49.540 I'm sure you do.

00:28:50.340 I do, 100%.

00:28:50.740 Yeah.

00:28:53.360 As for the media wars, that's something I've been dealing with, oh God, for a very long time.

00:28:58.660 And it works like this.

00:29:00.540 Hamas knows.

00:29:01.700 Even with the horrendous attacks of October 7th, 8th, with all the rocket fire.

00:29:07.420 And I'm sitting here in Jaffa, and we are hit by rockets pretty much every day.

00:29:11.900 Last night was a particularly heavy barrage.

00:29:14.700 With all of their rockets.

00:29:15.920 With all of their massacres and tortures and mutilations and burning.

00:29:20.700 They can't destroy us.

00:29:22.740 They'll come close to destroying us.

00:29:24.260 So what's their plan?

00:29:26.380 Their plan is to have a military tactic that serves a media, a diplomatic, and legal strategy.

00:29:34.960 I shall explain.

00:29:36.920 So they break their order.

00:29:39.700 They kill our people.

00:29:40.360 They shoot rockets.

00:29:41.260 At the end of the day, the rockets can't cause much damage.

00:29:45.860 We shoot back.

00:29:47.840 And they don't invest a penny in civil defense.

00:29:51.520 There's no bomb shelters in Gaza.

00:29:53.180 There's no sirens that go off that warn people, right?

00:29:57.000 Unlike in Israel.

00:29:57.940 I'm actually talking to you from inside my bomb shelter here.

00:30:00.780 I don't know if you can see the books behind me.

00:30:01.960 Don't let them fool you.

00:30:02.620 It's a bomb shelter.

00:30:04.300 And we all have bomb shelters.

00:30:05.640 They're not investing in that.

00:30:07.100 The siren system is very advanced.

00:30:08.460 It's on our cell phones.

00:30:09.420 It's outside.

00:30:11.160 They don't have any of that.

00:30:12.680 So Thomas wins twice.

00:30:14.960 It gets to kill our people.

00:30:16.240 And then it gets us to kill their people and get NPR talking about it.

00:30:21.580 Now, that creates protests around the world, particularly in Europe.

00:30:27.280 And that, in turn, translates into pressure on governments.

00:30:30.300 So the media strategy then turns into a diplomatic strategy.

00:30:33.980 And the diplomats put pressure on their governments to vote for, for example,

00:30:38.040 condemnations in the Security Council, which in the end can leapfrog from the UN

00:30:43.640 into the National Criminal Court, where they could find Israel guilty of war crimes.

00:30:48.660 They're already investigating us for war crimes today.

00:30:51.780 And then the International Criminal Court announces that there's a boycott and blockade

00:30:55.700 which will deny us the right to defend ourselves and actually ultimately deny us the right to exist

00:31:01.980 as a sovereign Jewish state.

00:31:04.200 So that, you've seen how it leaps from a military tactic to a strategy which is about media,

00:31:08.780 diplomacy, and ultimately the legal system.

00:31:11.900 These guys aren't stupid.

00:31:13.640 And they do this again and again.

00:31:15.360 And they chip away at our legitimacy each round.

00:31:18.780 I guarantee you there's going to be more and more resolutions in the Security Council.

00:31:24.700 I hope the United States keeps on videoing those resolutions.

00:31:27.840 Not easy.

00:31:29.440 And then the acquisitions of war crimes.

00:31:34.160 They're coming already.

00:31:35.440 There's going to be many, many more.

00:31:38.080 It's amazing.

00:31:38.760 If you think back to how we responded after 9-11, we started bombing Afghanistan, you didn't have

00:31:45.060 reporters going into the villages in Afghanistan to talk about the plight of the innocent Afghanis

00:31:50.800 who got swept up in the crossfire.

00:31:52.800 You know, and nor do we believe that they were using civilians in the way that Hamas uses them

00:31:57.960 over there.

00:31:58.820 But only with the Israel-Palestinian conflict does the media rush in to try to talk about

00:32:04.360 the effect of each and every bomb that Israel launches.

00:32:06.860 Each and every bomb is a war crime because of this, because of that.

00:32:10.080 Without giving the context of the fact that Hamas uses civilians as human shields, Israel

00:32:15.140 does everything within its reasonable power to stop civilians from being targeted.

00:32:19.320 Hamas does the opposite.

00:32:20.640 That context is missing from 90 percent of the reports.

00:32:23.860 Just it was just a what was it a couple of days ago, October 26th, the Hamas leader,

00:32:30.080 Hanayi, H-A-N-I-Y-E-H.

00:32:33.440 Hanayi, H-A-N-I-Y-E-H.

00:32:34.700 Hanayi, thank you.

00:32:36.300 Thank you.

00:32:36.960 Came out and said very clearly that the blood of women and children and the elderly being

00:32:42.140 spilled is a good thing for Hamas, that they need it.

00:32:45.740 Here is that soundbite number nine.

00:32:50.500 I have said this before, and I say it time again.

00:32:55.400 The blood of the women, children, and elderly.

00:32:58.460 I am not saying that this blood is calling for your help.

00:33:03.040 We are the ones who need this blood.

00:33:07.060 So it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit.

00:33:11.820 So it awakens within us resolve.

00:33:15.720 So it awakens within us the spirit of challenge and pushes us to move forward.

00:33:20.420 And yet, Ambassador, what you have, again, is are the Western reporters going in there like

00:33:27.080 another civil, Israel, Israel's killed this many civilians in Gaza, not not verifying the

00:33:34.400 numbers, not including any context, not acknowledging this is all part of Hamas's plan.

00:33:39.120 Yep.

00:33:41.780 So, listen, again, I've been involved with this many years, and I serve on an interministerial

00:33:45.620 committee on this.

00:33:46.900 And I'm sort of the hard guy on this committee because people talk about, well, we've got

00:33:50.740 to invest more in trying to convince this campus or trying to convince that newspaper

00:33:54.640 of the right to set our cause.

00:33:55.680 And I said, OK, we should do that.

00:33:56.960 We also have to keep in mind that at the end of the day, we are the Jewish state, which

00:34:02.400 means we will be judged by a completely different set of standards.

00:34:05.380 The United States and its wars in Iraq and Syria and Afghanistan killed tens of thousands

00:34:11.160 of civilians.

00:34:12.140 Even the New York Times reported on that.

00:34:15.660 And the rules of engagement were much more lenient than our rules in terms of trying to avoid

00:34:21.420 civilian casualties.

00:34:23.100 America's not held to that standard.

00:34:25.520 Nobody is.

00:34:26.200 We alone held to the standards.

00:34:28.780 And, you know, I have a, if you look at that, the Barry Weiss sub stack, that's what

00:34:34.240 I call the second war against the Jews.

00:34:36.000 I go into the press handling of Israel and show how the press's treatment of Israel, particularly

00:34:41.860 in this conflict, reflects medieval anti-Semitic tropes.

00:34:46.200 It's the, you know, innocent Jew is an oxymoron.

00:34:49.780 Jews are guilty by birth belief and ancestry of deicide.

00:34:55.180 Jews are guilty of the massacre of the innocents in the book of Matthew.

00:34:58.760 Jews are, you know, every bloodline, the classic bloodline of the Middle Ages is played out

00:35:07.840 on these pages.

00:35:09.300 And our ability to fight hatreds that are hundreds, in some cases, thousands of years

00:35:15.100 old is very difficult, extremely difficult.

00:35:18.120 On top of that, all of these hatreds are amplified exponentially by the social media.

00:35:24.300 They are now being amplified by AI, because people are saying, well, those massacres really

00:35:30.700 never happened on October 7th, because they were all fabricated by Israeli AI.

00:35:36.240 We don't know how good Israel is at AI.

00:35:38.580 And all those pictures of dismembered bodies and incinerated bodies, they're all fabricated.

00:35:44.100 And even the hospital, the Al-Ahi hospital bombing, which both the United States and Israel proved

00:35:51.400 unassailable, was not Israel's bombing, but a Palestinian rocket.

00:35:57.080 They had a poll today that came out that a majority of Generated Generation Z people

00:36:02.220 don't believe that evidence.

00:36:04.560 They believe that Israel fabricated the evidence that Israel did it.

00:36:08.480 Nor do the members of the so-called squad who continue out to go, oh, we may never know.

00:36:12.420 Or the New York Times, the New York Times, which paid experts a week, a week and a half

00:36:22.440 after that bond to keep on trying to prove that Israel did it.

00:36:25.620 It was jaw-dropping, jaw-dropping to see this stuff.

00:36:29.920 They were desperate, desperate.

00:36:30.600 You saw, of course, the New York Times just hired a Palestinian reporter who openly praised

00:36:35.680 Hitler.

00:36:36.420 You are so great.

00:36:37.140 Hitler, you are so great.

00:36:38.360 It wasn't like, you didn't have to really separate the wheat from the chaff to figure

00:36:42.100 out whether this guy actually is a fan of him or it was right there.

00:36:45.960 I thought, I think that even for the New York Times, that was quite exceptional to hire experts

00:36:49.760 to really try to prove that Israel did it.

00:36:52.960 And this is what we have to deal with.

00:36:54.400 At the end of the day, Megan, you know, we've been dealing with this hatred for a very long

00:36:58.740 time.

00:36:59.300 We're still here.

00:36:59.920 And I'll tell you an interesting story if I could have enough time.

00:37:05.200 Like, you know, part of my family, believe it or not, from marriage is Sicilian.

00:37:11.300 And last year, just about a year ago, we went to Sicily.

00:37:14.580 And we had a great time with the Sicilian branch of the family.

00:37:17.920 And we went to Syracuse, not Syracuse, New York, which is the original Syracuse.

00:37:23.640 And in Syracuse, if you walk down these steps about 20 feet, there are the oldest mikvah

00:37:30.540 baths, ritual Jewish baths in Europe.

00:37:33.040 They're about 1,500 years old and they're still full of water.

00:37:35.880 You can still use them.

00:37:37.420 And you're down there and there are no Jews left in Syracuse.

00:37:40.260 They were all evicted in 1492 during the expulsion and the Inquisition.

00:37:45.680 And you come out to the surface and you see these magnificent ruins.

00:37:48.960 There are Roman ruins and Greek ruins.

00:37:50.820 Also Sicily, if you've got a chance to go to Sicily, if you've been there, it's amazing.

00:37:53.920 Especially if you like ruins and Byzantine ruins and Ottoman ruins and Arabs and Crusader

00:37:59.360 ruins, every room in the world.

00:38:00.900 All of these civilizations are gone.

00:38:03.860 And we're still here.

00:38:06.260 We're still here.

00:38:08.400 And so we will be here.

00:38:09.980 We're going to win this war.

00:38:11.560 It's going to cost us great.

00:38:12.880 We already have cost us great.

00:38:14.500 We will deal with the hatreds.

00:38:16.640 You know, a thousand years from now, the New York Times won't be here, but we will be

00:38:21.060 here.

00:38:22.140 And we have to keep that in mind all the time.

00:38:25.880 I appreciate the optimistic message.

00:38:27.860 I know a lot of Jewish people and there have been the people who love them.

00:38:32.120 Like yours truly are very worried.

00:38:34.440 It's good to hear the larger perspective just for a minute because people are scared.

00:38:38.620 I know Jewish parents even here are scared where this is going.

00:38:42.280 Let me quick take a quick break.

00:38:43.640 And that's where I want to pick it up when we come back.

00:38:45.740 Your message for Americans and people outside of Israel who are dealing with this and what

00:38:51.140 they should be doing.

00:38:52.100 More with Ambassador Oren right after this.

00:38:54.340 Hamas releasing a new video just a short time ago showing three Israeli women who are being

00:39:04.440 held hostage by the terror group.

00:39:06.920 In the video, the women criticize Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and call for a ceasefire.

00:39:11.940 I mean, obviously, these women are under duress and are more than likely being told exactly

00:39:17.480 what to say by their captors.

00:39:20.060 The Prime Minister's office slammed the release of the video as cruel psychological propaganda.

00:39:25.820 As we've been covering, people are trying to spread awareness of the hostages all over

00:39:29.840 the world by putting up flyers so people can see their faces and their names, only for them

00:39:35.220 to be ripped down in many cases by pro-Hamas activists.

00:39:40.820 It happened again in Queens, New York last week.

00:39:44.160 Oh my God, this went so viral and for such good reason.

00:39:46.900 This time, however, the man ripping down the posters got more than he bargained for, thanks

00:39:52.920 to New York's hero, Pauly.

00:39:55.860 And if you know Queens, when a Pauly shows up, you better be ready for a smackdown.

00:40:01.480 Pauly works construction.

00:40:03.060 He's not Jewish, but he didn't like what he saw the man doing and handled it New York style.

00:40:09.940 Watch.

00:40:11.400 All right, I'm a veteran.

00:40:13.020 I'm telling you.

00:40:13.700 All right.

00:40:14.020 Don't rip up.

00:40:14.620 I'm not fucking Jewish.

00:40:16.020 He's not Jewish.

00:40:16.900 I don't know if he is or not.

00:40:18.060 It doesn't fucking matter.

00:40:19.600 This is fucking the U.S.

00:40:20.700 This is New York City.

00:40:21.700 You don't have a fucking right to touch that shit.

00:40:24.340 This is a free country.

00:40:25.360 You can wave your Palestine flag and say death to the Jews or America whenever you want.

00:40:29.080 But we can put a fucking silence.

00:40:31.060 Okay?

00:40:32.340 Then don't rip that down.

00:40:33.740 You are doing something.

00:40:34.620 You're offending us, motherfuckers.

00:40:37.000 Yeah, you are.

00:40:37.860 When you throw that on the floor, you're littering the city.

00:40:39.700 In a minute, I'm going to litter the fucking floor with you.

00:40:42.320 You have a proof?

00:40:42.860 So move the fuck on.

00:40:44.000 You have proof they're not getting up.

00:40:45.560 No, so shut the fuck up.

00:40:48.340 I know that's what you want.

00:40:50.400 I ain't dying to fucking put you in the hospital.

00:40:52.660 Come on.

00:40:53.140 You piece of shit.

00:40:55.700 Pauly.

00:40:56.540 Pauly.

00:40:57.120 We love you.

00:40:58.560 He's now being hailed by many as the new King of Queens.

00:41:01.960 Back with me now, former Israeli ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren.

00:41:06.120 Ambassador, what I love so much about that clip is that the guy gets everything.

00:41:09.780 He gets that you have a right to say the stuff, even if the stuff is hateful, because this

00:41:14.200 is America.

00:41:15.060 But I have the right to come yell at you and get in your face about what you've just done.

00:41:19.100 And you don't have the right to tear down my posters.

00:41:21.340 I mean, it was just to me, Pauly and the Paulys of the world are the answer.

00:41:26.760 And I get very nervous about Jews, don't come to the dining hall.

00:41:31.960 Jews, barricade yourselves in the library.

00:41:34.300 Jews, stay home.

00:41:36.940 You know what the truly horrible thing is, Megan?

00:41:39.400 I heard repeatedly today that there are charges that that video, which has gone viral, was

00:41:44.600 fabricated the day out.

00:41:46.920 No.

00:41:48.240 That's from people who have never been to New York.

00:41:49.980 Anyway, disturbing, you know, I spent many years, I was one of my first jobs in government

00:42:00.880 was being Israel's ambassador to the Christian world.

00:42:05.460 And there are about 60 recognized churches in this country, many unrecognized churches

00:42:11.220 in this country.

00:42:11.860 And as preparation for that job, I sat down and studied the New Testament very carefully.

00:42:18.440 And it was a very important tool for me.

00:42:21.140 But one of my favorite lines of the New Testament comes from the book of Corinthians.

00:42:25.020 And where Paul says, you know, the world is a very confusing place.

00:42:29.220 It's full of fog.

00:42:30.020 And we look at the world as if through a glass darkness.

00:42:34.000 And I think that the greatest quality of human beings like Pauly are people who can look through

00:42:39.500 the glass, even if it's dark, and actually see clarity, see clearly.

00:42:44.560 And that's a rare quality.

00:42:45.880 Look how clearly that man saw things.

00:42:48.220 That this, apparently, a Muslim gentleman has the right to fly a power on the Palestinian

00:42:52.520 flag.

00:42:53.020 He has a right to say what he wants.

00:42:54.660 But he doesn't have the right to assault another per-human being.

00:43:02.040 So he saw this as an assault.

00:43:04.500 He didn't have that right.

00:43:05.920 That's so rare.

00:43:07.040 That's seeing through a glass darkly, but really seeing.

00:43:10.160 And it's amazing.

00:43:12.800 What about the Americans out there right now?

00:43:15.340 Because I understand Israel has a mission, and it's a righteous mission right now.

00:43:19.980 100% get it all.

00:43:21.680 But I do worry, as we see these pro-Palestinian mobs growing across the globe and domestically

00:43:28.140 here in the U.S., about, you know, the Hamas talents in the propaganda war that we just

00:43:34.660 discussed.

00:43:35.100 And as Israel's incursion ramps up, as things get worse for Hamas, I think that that swelling

00:43:42.540 of support for the Palestinians will get even bigger.

00:43:45.440 And I worry about the backlash to Jewish Americans here, Jewish people around the world.

00:43:51.140 You know, more college campuses getting the nonsense that we just saw at Cornell or at

00:43:54.460 Cooper Union.

00:43:55.020 What's your message to them?

00:43:59.420 Well, as I mentioned, I spoke to these Cornell students last night, and I spoke to them,

00:44:04.100 you know, after meeting these paratroopers, and I saw the same expressions on their face.

00:44:07.900 I said this earlier, but I said to the students at Cornell, you know, these paratroopers are

00:44:14.540 preparing to go and gossip.

00:44:15.580 But you're also in the port.

00:44:17.000 You're in a war against the Jews.

00:44:18.580 The front lines is Cornell University and Ithaca.

00:44:22.020 And your weapons are your knowledge.

00:44:26.000 And making sure that no one can distort the history of Gaza, which includes Israel's withdrawal

00:44:30.760 from the Gaza Strip in 2005.

00:44:32.560 We ripped up 21 settlements.

00:44:34.960 We yanked 8,000 of our own citizens out of their homes in order to give the Palestinians

00:44:39.040 a chance to build a peaceful state.

00:44:41.700 And they turned it into a terrorist state.

00:44:44.120 And these are just one of the many facts you have to know.

00:44:47.100 There's no water in Gaza.

00:44:48.360 You know why there's no water in Gaza?

00:44:49.540 Israel is only responsible for 7% of the water in Gaza.

00:44:52.340 There's no water in Gaza because Hamas ripped up all the pipes to make rockets.

00:44:56.440 They dug tunnels through the aquifer and drained the aquifer.

00:44:59.420 That's why there's no water in Gaza.

00:45:00.500 But the people across there are going to blame Israel, denying Palestinians water.

00:45:04.960 You've got to know that knowledge is the equivalent of a gun on American campuses.

00:45:10.300 But at the end of the day, what these young paratroopers and these young students have

00:45:14.500 is their spirits, their unwillingness to surrender, their willingness to fight, to stand up.

00:45:22.040 And my advice to these Cornell students was do not let them.

00:45:25.680 Don't let them lock you into your center for Jewish living.

00:45:31.840 Do not let you be intimidated.

00:45:33.720 Fight back.

00:45:35.240 Your president or your college doesn't say anything.

00:45:37.400 Accuse that president of being complicit in racism.

00:45:41.500 And the standard must be, if people say this about Jews, if they had said the same thing about black people

00:45:48.240 or about LGBT people, what would be the response?

00:45:51.060 And if the response is anything less, less total, less category than what they'd say in those cases,

00:45:58.200 then that is racist.

00:45:59.400 And accuse your president, your faculty of racism.

00:46:01.680 Because it is.

00:46:03.300 Stand up.

00:46:04.380 Be strong.

00:46:05.500 Here, I'm not quoting the New Testament, but our Bible, the Torah.

00:46:09.060 Here, Moses says to Joshua again and again, in Hebrew,

00:46:12.500 be of strong heart and good courage.

00:46:16.080 And that's the best I can tell.

00:46:17.860 Yeah.

00:46:18.520 Now more than ever.

00:46:19.600 I mean, I have a lot of Jewish friends right now who are, for the first time, are buying guns.

00:46:24.560 They're worried about the mezuzah outside of their house.

00:46:27.540 You know, the marking that a lot of Jewish people put on the outside.

00:46:32.620 And that shows that you're Jewish.

00:46:34.100 They're worried about their kids wearing their Star of David necklace.

00:46:36.400 I mean, it's just crazy.

00:46:37.400 It's crazy.

00:46:38.100 I mean, I understand the fear.

00:46:39.600 That's not crazy.

00:46:40.300 But that we're at this point, even in America, I can't imagine being a Jew in Israel right now.

00:46:47.820 It's genuinely terrifying.

00:46:48.960 But we have to remember that we're Americans, too.

00:46:51.360 I mean, we're Americans first over here.

00:46:52.940 And we don't cower.

00:46:53.920 We don't cower.

00:46:54.860 You get in our face.

00:46:55.740 We get a Pauly.

00:46:57.400 If we're not strong enough to do it ourselves, we get ourselves a Pauly.

00:47:01.400 And it's on.

00:47:02.380 All right.

00:47:03.120 So I grew up among Pauly.

00:47:05.540 I grew up in an entirely Italian neighborhood.

00:47:07.280 I know Pauly.

00:47:08.100 Believe me.

00:47:08.500 You don't want to mess with Pauly.

00:47:10.060 You're from Jersey.

00:47:11.200 It's the same.

00:47:11.840 It's the same as Queens.

00:47:12.700 Yes.

00:47:12.720 Pauly Italian.

00:47:13.280 I love it.

00:47:14.980 Listen, all our best to you, Ambassador.

00:47:16.880 Thank you so much for being with us here today.

00:47:18.800 Thank you so much.

00:47:19.080 And we're praying for you guys.

00:47:21.900 Thank you, Mary.

00:47:22.720 Be well.

00:47:23.180 Thank you for your support.

00:47:25.100 All the best.

00:47:26.000 Wow.

00:47:27.480 Can you imagine?

00:47:28.260 It's great.

00:47:28.680 It's like, you know, Pauly probably didn't see himself becoming a hero on the Internet

00:47:33.380 or elsewhere.

00:47:34.040 But that's all it takes, as he points out, moral clarity.

00:47:37.460 That moral clarity that he had, that a lot of you have.

00:47:40.520 And you know what?

00:47:41.080 So many of these people, they're cowards.

00:47:42.840 They're cowards.

00:47:43.400 You get in their face.

00:47:44.220 They're going to back down.

00:47:45.060 They're afraid.

00:47:45.660 They're counting on the anonymity of being able to pull down the posters or wave their

00:47:50.200 Palestinian flag.

00:47:51.340 And 90 percent of them know nothing.

00:47:53.180 They know nothing.

00:47:58.460 Now we turn to Kelly's Court with two of my favorite legal minds joining me today.

00:48:03.140 Johnis Bilboer, criminal defense attorney and founding attorney of Johnis Bilboer Law

00:48:07.900 and Arthur Idala, trial attorney and managing partner of Idala, Bertuna and Caymans and host

00:48:13.180 of the Arthur Idala Power Hour radio show on AM 970.

00:48:18.640 The answer in New York.

00:48:20.900 All right.

00:48:21.180 So there's a lot to get to, you guys.

00:48:23.580 We got Derek Chauvin.

00:48:24.760 We got Brian Kohlberger and more.

00:48:26.660 Welcome back to the program.

00:48:27.640 Let's start with Derek Chauvin, the man, the cop convicted of second degree murder in

00:48:34.300 connection with the death of George Floyd.

00:48:37.100 Of course, everyone remembers the story.

00:48:39.140 That's what he was convicted of, among other charges.

00:48:41.540 Now he's serving a 22 year sentence and there's news on this case.

00:48:48.820 At the moment, his lawyers are trying to be to get the case heard at the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:48:55.140 The Supreme Court of Minnesota decided not to hear their appeal.

00:48:58.940 So now they're going to the court of last resort.

00:49:01.380 The U.S. Supreme Court trying to say, please, please, please hear our appeal and give us a

00:49:05.740 new trial.

00:49:06.300 So we'll get to that in a minute.

00:49:07.520 But in that context, like as that's happening, something else is happening, which is Amy

00:49:12.920 Sweezy.

00:49:14.680 She's our age.

00:49:16.180 I think the three of us are about the same age.

00:49:17.700 She's a 1995 graduate of the University of Minnesota Law School.

00:49:20.580 And she was a prosecutor in this district attorney's office that went after Derek Chauvin in Minnesota

00:49:28.300 for 28 years.

00:49:31.420 She's tried over 100 felony jury trials.

00:49:33.700 So she knows what she's doing, including first degree murder cases.

00:49:36.420 She specializes in, among other cases, police use of force cases.

00:49:40.420 She teaches law school, all this stuff.

00:49:43.840 Now, she is suing her old boss at the Hennepin County attorney's office, alleging, I think

00:49:54.620 it's sexual harassment, that he sexually harassed her, sex discrimination and retaliation.

00:49:59.920 And yet in the context of this civil litigation, she has made some extraordinary allegations

00:50:09.960 on the record about what kind of behavior he's guilty of and what he was saying and doing

00:50:16.640 while running, in particular, the George Floyd case, the case against Derek Chauvin.

00:50:21.760 She says at her deposition, which is sworn, she's under oath, that this guy, the DA, was

00:50:32.940 aware of a conversation she had with the medical examiner, whose name was Andrew Baker, and that

00:50:37.860 the day after George Floyd's death, she, Amy Swayze, had a conversation with the medical

00:50:44.860 examiner, Andrew Baker.

00:50:46.340 And Andrew Baker said the following, quote, well, this is her describing it.

00:50:53.980 He called me later in the day after I'd asked him to perform the autopsy.

00:50:59.500 And he told me after doing the autopsy, there were no medical findings that showed any injury

00:51:05.920 to the vital structures of Mr. Floyd's neck.

00:51:09.400 There were no medical indications of asphyxia or strangulation, said Ms. Swayze.

00:51:14.940 He said to me, she went on, Amy, what happens when the actual evidence does not match up

00:51:21.040 with the public narrative that everyone's already decided on?

00:51:24.360 And then he said, this is the kind of case that ends careers.

00:51:29.760 Andrew Baker responded, the medical examiner saying, I cannot comment.

00:51:34.060 But his representative says that he stands by the autopsy report and his televised testimony,

00:51:39.220 both of which are publicly available.

00:51:40.840 Now, many are saying this proves that Derek Chauvin did not murder George Floyd in any

00:51:49.020 way, that this medical examiner knew it, that there were no signs of asphyxiation nor any

00:51:56.660 injury to the vital structures of his neck, no medical indications of asphyxia or strangulation.

00:52:03.980 And that last comment is the killer.

00:52:05.800 What happens when the evidence doesn't match up to the public narrative?

00:52:09.160 So, Jonna, what, if anything, does this do to the case and specifically to this appeal

00:52:14.960 to the U.S. Supreme Court to get Derek Chauvin a new trial?

00:52:19.160 So much to dive into here, Megan.

00:52:22.060 This is really bombshell evidence because on a number of levels, it proves it true, a malicious

00:52:29.160 prosecution.

00:52:29.920 It proves, disproves the fact that there was any sort of, that this was basically a homicide.

00:52:38.720 So it proves that Derek Chauvin and others and company should not have been charged at

00:52:45.140 all, certainly not the way they were charged.

00:52:47.640 And it proves that this was going to be a conviction at all costs kind of prosecution based on the

00:52:56.060 climate of what was going on across the country, based on the climate about how people all of

00:53:01.680 a sudden had to hate all police, especially white police.

00:53:04.860 It proves that Derek Chauvin, if true, was absolutely railroaded.

00:53:12.140 Now, the interesting thing is that really didn't come out.

00:53:15.840 I mean, Eric Nelson did.

00:53:17.300 The defense attorney did try to raise that in the course of his cross-examination, didn't

00:53:23.000 really hit a home run with it.

00:53:24.720 It will be part of the appeal to the Supreme Court, even though it wasn't part of the trial.

00:53:30.860 They can bring up this new evidence when they make their pitch to the Supreme Court, but

00:53:36.000 at the very least, I don't think it stopped there.

00:53:38.020 This is new evidence and they should probably try to reverse course and start all over again

00:53:44.460 to the extent that the Minnesota allows them to do that, because this is really huge.

00:53:50.300 So she raises a good point, Arthur, that they did try.

00:53:52.780 They knew, as I read the transcripts, some of this they knew from the medical examiner's

00:53:58.480 report, some of this, but they didn't know all of it.

00:54:01.880 I don't see anything where they knew he was saying the actual evidence does not match up

00:54:06.300 with the story that they're telling the public.

00:54:08.700 That's devastating.

00:54:09.920 You know, as a defense attorney, if you found that coming from another DA talking to your

00:54:14.700 medical examiner as the defense attorney, you'd be like, I'm doing cartwheels.

00:54:19.240 You'd be so thrilled.

00:54:20.260 But as far as I can tell, Derek Chauvin's lawyer did not have access to that because

00:54:26.480 it's only been unearthed here in this civil lawsuit.

00:54:30.460 I don't think it's going to be enough.

00:54:32.280 I mean, what they write in or what they're basing part of their appeals to the Supreme

00:54:38.480 Court of the United States of America on is that the jurors were in a position when there

00:54:43.760 was not a change of venue, that if they found Chauvin not guilty, there would have been

00:54:49.400 riots in the street again.

00:54:50.640 So they really had no choice, which is a pretty powerful argument.

00:54:55.000 But just what an appellate court could say to get themselves out of it is, look, the jury

00:55:01.500 heard substantially significant evidence that the medical examiner said, I don't think

00:55:09.400 he, I don't think he was choked to death.

00:55:11.340 I, you know, that was, he died of asphyxiation, but there's no injury to the neck.

00:55:17.180 What I found very interesting by the-

00:55:19.720 He didn't die of asphyxiation, did not die of asphyxiation.

00:55:23.100 And the medical examiner testified to that.

00:55:26.540 And what I found very interesting though, Megan, from the packet your team gave me was that

00:55:31.120 he said he never watched the video before he committed the autopsy, did the autopsy, because

00:55:38.180 he didn't want it to be, to influence him and what his outcome was, which that like really

00:55:42.640 was like, wow, that's interesting.

00:55:44.520 So he doesn't even know, or he hasn't seen it with his own eyes until I think after the

00:55:49.020 fact.

00:55:49.640 But look, the three of us know the Supreme Court of the United States of America takes

00:55:54.140 less than a hundred cases a year.

00:55:56.780 There are certain cases that they have to take, like when two jurisdictions, like two different

00:56:01.700 states in federal court are ruling differently.

00:56:04.500 The second department, the second circuit has a different ruling than the third circuit.

00:56:08.080 They kind of have to take that here.

00:56:10.000 They have to find four justices to say, okay, we're going to take this case because it has

00:56:15.420 such a profound impact on the laws, the United States of America, but we're going to take

00:56:22.040 it.

00:56:22.460 I don't see that burning legal issue here.

00:56:25.460 They're going to put their neck in the middle of this.

00:56:28.740 You know, I will say, I'll make an argument of why they should.

00:56:31.500 And I understand that they probably won't because they don't want to be particularly bold,

00:56:35.480 the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:56:36.520 They like to not touch the hot buttons if they can get away with it.

00:56:39.920 But this is a growing trend in America.

00:56:43.540 Trial by media, you know, trial for social justice, not for actual justice.

00:56:49.900 And if they actually took this case and reversed it saying this guy did not get a fair trial,

00:56:54.900 the court of public opinion had hanged him before he ever stepped foot in that courtroom.

00:56:58.940 This was a D.A. and an A.G. on a quest for social justice, not actual justice.

00:57:04.000 That's not the United States of America.

00:57:05.640 It actually would send a very powerful message down to all all courts, criminal and civil on

00:57:12.840 don't go this route, this road.

00:57:14.800 We're not going to support you.

00:57:15.720 And we don't care if people don't like us.

00:57:17.240 But, John, let me jump back to some of the evidence that was admitted before the jury,

00:57:24.260 because this is not going to be helpful to Derek Chauvin's request for a new trial or

00:57:29.560 trying to use this woman's deposition as like, you know, the new holy grail.

00:57:33.700 As you pointed out, his lawyer, Eric Nelson, Chauvin's lawyer, did get some of these points

00:57:40.920 in before the jury.

00:57:42.260 Now, that's the kind of stuff any appellate judge will look at because the appellate judges

00:57:46.460 want to wiggle out of changing the verdict.

00:57:48.240 They don't they don't like changing verdicts.

00:57:50.300 So if they have any reason to say this is all brought up in front of the jury and you

00:57:53.380 you muffed it, then they'll do that.

00:57:55.940 So here's what happened when they had Andrew Baker on the stand, the medical examiner.

00:57:59.460 And Nelson was cross-examining him April 2021.

00:58:03.740 Here it is, SOT 20.

00:58:04.880 Let's play it.

00:58:05.320 In terms of the placement of Mr. Chauvin's knee, would that explain

00:58:15.640 anatomically why Mr. Floyd, would that anatomically cut off Mr. Floyd's airway?

00:58:24.640 In my opinion, it would not.

00:58:25.800 So that was a great admission that Nelson got, that the knee would not have cut off

00:58:32.180 airflow to George Floyd.

00:58:34.200 The jury didn't care.

00:58:37.640 Mm hmm.

00:58:38.620 Right.

00:58:39.380 Which goes along with the very basis, the very basis of the appeal is is that right?

00:58:46.540 The very basis of the appeal is because you didn't allow us to change a venue.

00:58:50.060 This was a conviction was a foregone conclusion because the jurors did not want their houses

00:58:55.720 burned down.

00:58:56.460 They didn't want their families stoned.

00:58:58.060 They didn't want any of that.

00:58:59.900 And the fact that a jury can ignore solid evidence from an Emmy, this isn't even a hired

00:59:06.540 gun, so to speak.

00:59:07.780 This isn't a quote unquote expert that any side can hire.

00:59:10.720 This is the guy that works for the state that that does this for a living, that works for

00:59:15.440 the state, giving information that is basically contrary to the state's case.

00:59:22.040 And the jury still rejected it.

00:59:24.300 What does that tell you about the tenor?

00:59:27.200 And you know what I find very interesting?

00:59:29.760 If we believe the information in the deposition that's ancillary to all of this, where the Emmy

00:59:34.900 was basically saying without saying it, don't make me do this because I still want my job.

00:59:40.980 Don't make me say what really happened here, because it's not a safe environment if I do.

00:59:46.880 Do you think 12 strangers aren't going to have the same fear?

00:59:51.940 If a professional, if a seasoned professional is afraid to tell it like it is, do you think

00:59:57.040 12 jurors are going to be bold enough to find Derek Chauvin not guilty?

01:00:03.040 No way.

01:00:03.680 As a reminder, he did end it, according to this woman's deposition, again, Amy Sweezy's

01:00:10.880 deposition, the medical examiner ended it with, the evidence doesn't match up with the public

01:00:16.080 narrative.

01:00:17.120 This is the kind of case that ends careers.

01:00:19.620 He was scared.

01:00:20.520 He was worried about his paycheck.

01:00:21.940 And you could argue those jurors were worried about their safety, their lives, their jobs

01:00:26.220 as well.

01:00:27.100 Go ahead, Arthur.

01:00:27.520 That's why I think, to everyone's point, both of you that just made, their stronger

01:00:34.700 issue is the lack, the fact that they didn't change the venue, that there was so much-

01:00:40.100 Well, but she's saying it feeds in.

01:00:40.800 Right.

01:00:41.060 It feeds in.

01:00:41.920 But wait, before you make that point again, because I heard that point the first time,

01:00:45.880 before you make that point again, there are other issues that came out, and I want to

01:00:50.780 get your take on it, because you, Mark, and I had a big debate on the Chauvin case, Arthur,

01:00:57.280 back when it was all going down.

01:00:58.840 And this was one of the issues, the drugs, and whether George Floyd died from a fentanyl

01:01:04.680 overdose, not from anything Derek Chauvin did.

01:01:07.420 Now, if you look back, because I went and looked back, what did the medical examiner say

01:01:11.180 about how George Floyd died at the time, like in his report?

01:01:15.320 Well, he came out with some very squirrely language.

01:01:19.680 He said, I'm really going to homicide, but, quote, not a legal determination of culpability

01:01:24.260 or intent.

01:01:25.200 So he's basically trying to say he was killed as a result of actions of another, but I'm

01:01:30.600 not saying whether someone intended to kill him.

01:01:32.800 Then he said, Floyd died of cardiopulmonary arrest.

01:01:38.020 Okay, this is squirrely.

01:01:39.360 Listen to this.

01:01:39.920 So far, we understand cardiopulmonary arrest, like something happened with a heart in the

01:01:44.100 lungs that caused him to stop breathing, complicating law enforcement, subdual restraint and neck

01:01:53.400 compression, complicating his cardiopulmonary arrest, complicating law enforcement, restraint

01:01:59.940 and neck compression.

01:02:01.260 So in other words, the fact that his heart and his lungs gave out complicated the cop's

01:02:07.840 restraint of him.

01:02:08.760 What in the actual F?

01:02:10.660 Nobody understands that choice of phraseology.

01:02:13.140 If you reversed it, we would understand the restraint, complicating his heart, his lungs,

01:02:18.560 his ability.

01:02:19.120 That's not what he wrote.

01:02:20.480 And then he was asked about it on the stand.

01:02:24.500 And it still didn't make any sense to me, but he did expand on what he tried to mean in

01:02:30.940 SOT 22.

01:02:32.840 So what I clarified for the U.S.

01:02:35.400 attorney in the Federal Bureau of Investigation was my opinion as to what happened to Mr.

01:02:39.120 Floyd, and that is he experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest in the context of law enforcement, subdual

01:02:44.860 restraint and neck compression.

01:02:46.300 It was the stress of that interaction that tipped him over the edge, given his underlying

01:02:51.020 heart disease and his toxicological status.

01:02:53.180 Not what his report said, Arthur, as you as a defense attorney would be quick to point.

01:02:59.280 That's not what he the way he phrased it when he was a squirrel.

01:03:03.020 Right.

01:03:03.480 But so it's instead of saying complicating, it should have said complicated by the cops

01:03:09.480 beating on him.

01:03:10.560 And that's what brought on the heart attack.

01:03:12.120 Like, Megan, I just have to get this out of my system.

01:03:14.940 The more we talk about this, like the United States Supreme Court is not going to take

01:03:19.940 this case based on anything we're talking about.

01:03:22.100 I mean, I would be shocked.

01:03:24.140 No, no.

01:03:24.500 I mean, they have ruled in cases that actual innocence does not require a reversal.

01:03:29.600 If everything was done the right way, procedurally, everything was done the right way.

01:03:34.020 And they're going to say, you know, what you and John are talking about, like, how can

01:03:37.780 we let juries do this?

01:03:39.700 Like, the Supreme Court is not going to come down with a ruling saying, if there's too

01:03:43.740 much public pressure on juries, you know, we have to do X, Y, and Z.

01:03:47.660 They're just going to look at the Constitution.

01:03:49.500 They're going to look at precedent and say, was there anything here that violated it?

01:03:53.820 It's got to be of the magnitude that affects the country.

01:03:57.640 But I just don't see that happening here.

01:03:59.840 What they're going to say is, look, the jury heard all of this stuff.

01:04:02.840 They heard that testimony.

01:04:04.240 They heard the defense attorney's opening where he brought it up and his summation where

01:04:07.780 he brought it up and his cross-examination.

01:04:09.700 It is not newly discovered evidence.

01:04:12.700 Like, hypothetically, you know, they really found something new in the toxicology report

01:04:17.920 that took months to come out.

01:04:19.740 And now it's brand new and nobody knew about it.

01:04:22.400 So, you know, I think Mr. Chauvin is, I mean, the place where he kind of shot was in the

01:04:27.680 Minnesota appellate court.

01:04:30.160 Once you know that, and then their higher court said no, and now you're in the Supreme Court

01:04:34.660 of the United States.

01:04:36.240 It ain't happening.

01:04:37.080 But these are points, these soundbites that I'm playing, these are soundbites that will

01:04:42.260 be quoted by the prosecution in arguing Mr. Chauvin's had his day in court.

01:04:48.640 Mr. Chauvin's lawyer raised these issues when cross-examining the medical examiner, maybe

01:04:54.300 not as effectively as Arthur Idollah or John Spilboer would have, but he did raise them.

01:04:59.780 And so even if you're 10 points down from your main argument of there should have been a change

01:05:04.480 of venue, even those points aren't persuasive nine justices.

01:05:09.260 So don't take a look at this case.

01:05:10.980 It's just, it's very unfortunate that this medical examiner, John, I did not have the balls to

01:05:16.580 come forward as a whistleblower.

01:05:19.340 Is that a legal term?

01:05:20.780 Is that a legal term, Maggie?

01:05:22.100 Yes, you understand.

01:05:23.040 It's balls.

01:05:23.560 Did you miss that day?

01:05:24.380 It's in Black's Law Dictionary under B.

01:05:26.000 I go with chutzpah, but you can go with that.

01:05:28.640 It's fine.

01:05:29.080 But seriously, like he had to say, he said it to the, to the DA who later resigned, but

01:05:38.100 he didn't have the guts to say it publicly.

01:05:39.720 And honestly, she, she should have come forward with it sooner too.

01:05:42.960 She didn't bring it forward until she sat for her deposition.

01:05:46.360 Oh, absolutely.

01:05:47.620 I mean, really, this is akin to a Brady violation because what we're hearing in this deposition

01:05:51.820 is only part of it.

01:05:53.340 I guarantee you there were conversations that no one is privy to other than the participants

01:05:58.580 where this ME said, what, what in the hell are you doing?

01:06:02.860 And they said, make it happen.

01:06:04.680 Say what you got to say, phrase it the way you got to phrase it, because this guy's going

01:06:08.420 to get prosecuted and all his buddies are going to get prosecuted.

01:06:11.080 And this is the way it's going to happen.

01:06:13.000 And, you know, I liken this to sometimes when you have civil cases, right.

01:06:17.100 And you're trying to get to the, the conversations that occurred behind closed doors, you always

01:06:23.220 got to ask for the post-it notes, right?

01:06:25.360 Everybody who doesn't want this information to ever be public.

01:06:28.380 They don't put it in their note.

01:06:29.640 They don't type it in the computer.

01:06:31.060 They put it on post-its.

01:06:32.420 And when they're done discussing it, those post-its go in the garbage.

01:06:35.340 And what this ME did was really untoward, if not just fully illegal by not, he's again,

01:06:44.800 not a paid expert.

01:06:46.640 He's an ME.

01:06:47.740 He should have just said what it actually was and let the DAs deal with it.

01:06:52.100 Let the jurors deal with it.

01:06:53.560 But they essentially have hidden valuable exculpatory evidence.

01:06:58.380 That's not okay.

01:06:59.460 And I don't care what court needs to hear it next.

01:07:01.920 It's not okay.

01:07:02.920 This man is serving 20, 21 years in prison for his job.

01:07:08.820 No, it's true.

01:07:09.980 It's, it's very dark.

01:07:11.040 What happened?

01:07:11.780 Um, you know, Tucker came out, he did a show on this.

01:07:15.520 And, um, he said that according to a recent court deposition, the one we're talking about,

01:07:21.120 it proved that Chauvin did not murder George Floyd and Newsweek gave him a false rating

01:07:27.520 for the show.

01:07:28.340 I mean, I have to tell you, I'm on team Tucker.

01:07:31.680 It did.

01:07:32.200 It did prove that Derek Chauvin did not murder George Floyd.

01:07:37.160 And what it proved to me was maybe not as beyond a reasonable doubt, but it certainly

01:07:41.180 gave us new evidence that this was not a murder and that the ME knew it and that the ME used

01:07:47.620 squirrely phraseology to please his boss, because that's what you do when the actual evidence

01:07:53.340 doesn't match the story being told to the public.

01:07:55.980 You squirrel your way out of it with mealy mouth language that nobody understands.

01:08:01.140 And then you get browbeaten by a number of bosses.

01:08:03.840 And then by the time you take the stand in the actual criminal case, you say, oh, as

01:08:07.920 I have since made clear, what I meant by my weird language was he wouldn't have died had

01:08:12.920 it not been for that knee, even though he didn't, he wasn't asphyxiated.

01:08:16.640 He wasn't strangled.

01:08:17.960 The guy had a heart attack.

01:08:19.200 So in any event, I respect, I respectfully disagree, Megan.

01:08:22.160 I'm going to disagree with you.

01:08:23.820 I know that I'm at my own peril, but I don't think it proves that Chauvin didn't do it.

01:08:30.840 I think what would have proved it is if someone said, any medical expert said that, had he

01:08:36.220 walked out of that store that day and no one called the police, he was, his, they said

01:08:41.460 his artery was 90% blocked.

01:08:43.640 Well, Clinton's artery was 90% blocked.

01:08:45.560 They took him to the hospital and they fixed him.

01:08:46.940 If it was 99% blocked, like, had he walked out of the store, he was going to just collapse

01:08:51.920 and die there no matter what.

01:08:53.760 If he had a contact with the police, if he didn't have any contact with the police, that

01:08:57.240 his time was up.

01:08:58.460 He was ready to go.

01:08:59.420 So I think, but for the interaction with the cop that day, he would have at least lived

01:09:06.060 to see dinner that night, if not breakfast the next morning.

01:09:10.420 So you can't say that, oh, he was in really bad shape.

01:09:13.620 He had an enlarged heart because he had years of high blood pressure.

01:09:16.800 He had a 90% clogged artery.

01:09:18.760 He was, had some drugs in his system and therefore he was going to die anyway.

01:09:25.380 And Chauvin not been there.

01:09:26.820 But then, but then Arthur, wait, hold on, counselor.

01:09:29.080 Okay.

01:09:29.220 I take your point.

01:09:29.920 But then at that point, you have to start asking, okay, at what point did it, did it

01:09:34.660 switch into murder?

01:09:35.720 Because George Floyd was the one who invited interaction with cops that day.

01:09:39.980 George Floyd resisted arrest long before George Floyd wound up on his stomach on the

01:09:44.780 ground under Derek Chauvin's knee.

01:09:46.460 He was in trouble with the cops.

01:09:47.980 His nose was bleeding in the car before he went down.

01:09:50.920 So like what the Emmy is basically saying is the stress of the event pushed him over

01:09:57.900 the top.

01:09:58.540 Here he is for when he was asked about the amount of fentanyl in George Floyd during the

01:10:04.020 confrontation and sought 21.

01:10:06.640 Listen, do you recall describing the level of fentanyl as a fatal level of fentanyl?

01:10:14.120 I recall describing it in other circumstances.

01:10:18.140 It would be a fatal level.

01:10:19.960 Yes.

01:10:20.480 In other circumstances.

01:10:23.000 Had you found Mr. Floyd under different circumstances, you would have determined this

01:10:30.100 to be a fentanyl overdose.

01:10:31.260 So I don't recall specifically what I told the county attorney, but it almost certainly

01:10:35.720 went something like this.

01:10:36.940 Had Mr. Floyd been home alone in his locked residence with no evidence of trauma and the

01:10:41.900 only autopsy finding was that fentanyl level, then yes, I would certify his death is due to

01:10:47.020 fentanyl toxicity.

01:10:49.540 So, John, I mean, what's really happening there is once again, he's saying what he actually

01:10:53.320 believes, that the guy drug overdosed.

01:10:55.580 I'm sure he did get stressed out by his interactions with cops.

01:10:58.240 But where is the evidence, the actual evidence that the nine minutes underneath the knee

01:11:02.360 caused the death that the most he could come up with after the fact was it was the stress

01:11:07.800 of the interaction that tipped him over the edge.

01:11:10.120 I played you that soundbite, tipped him over the edge, giving his underlying heart disease

01:11:14.540 and toxicological status, given given those two things.

01:11:17.560 So, look, it's I mean, look, I I'm being exacting because you before you put a man in jail

01:11:23.460 for 22 and a half years, especially a police officer, you better be damn sure it actually

01:11:27.660 was murder.

01:11:28.660 And what we're seeing here is an Emmy who was not sure.

01:11:31.780 And further confirmation from the deposition of this prosecutor, who's now very angry that

01:11:36.780 no one believed it, that the Emmy didn't believe it, she didn't believe it, and that we had

01:11:42.020 a chief D.A. with an agenda.

01:11:43.780 So let's take it a step further.

01:11:46.780 This conversation shouldn't even be happening happening in the context of is this a crime,

01:11:51.780 let alone is it murder?

01:11:52.900 This is a great conversation for the civil lawsuit when you're trying to prove, you know,

01:11:58.160 the eggshell plaintiff that we all heard about in law school, you know, but for the knee

01:12:02.840 on the neck, Mr. Chauvin would still be alive because you have to take him as you find him

01:12:07.360 and how you found him that day was high on fentanyl with a 90 percent clogged artery with

01:12:14.500 high blood pressure and with whatever host of other ailments that he had.

01:12:18.200 The civil context is where this is relevant.

01:12:21.100 This should not have even risen to the level of a crime, let alone the highest crime, that

01:12:27.560 being murder.

01:12:28.620 So it's offensive all the way around for me that this is now coming out ancillary.

01:12:33.280 This isn't even coming out for the purpose of this former D.A. trying to help Chauvin.

01:12:38.820 She's trying to help herself.

01:12:40.800 And here it comes.

01:12:43.740 Somebody ought to do something about it.

01:12:45.860 It's not fair.

01:12:47.300 But, John, we've all tried enough cases to know that our system is far from perfect.

01:12:53.560 There are cases that I've tried that has to do with if a person was underage or not.

01:12:58.160 He testified, I don't really know when it took place.

01:13:00.420 I don't know if I was 16 or I was 17.

01:13:02.760 That's total reasonable doubt they found the guy guilty.

01:13:05.500 And the appeals court said, well, the jury heard it.

01:13:07.800 They heard that he didn't know if he was 16 or 17.

01:13:10.180 They found him guilty.

01:13:11.220 Here, the jury heard what the medical examiner said, and they still found him guilty,

01:13:15.360 even though Megan's abandoned me for repeating myself, I think the stronger issue is it should

01:13:19.840 not have been a jury that if they found him not guilty, they went outside their house.

01:13:24.480 It would be burned to the ground because they were in such a volatile area.

01:13:28.320 Well, and I agree with that point that this case never should have been tried there.

01:13:31.640 What a nightmare.

01:13:32.540 And obviously, the result was baked in.

01:13:34.360 And you had the AG, Keith Ellison, a man on a mission to put this guy behind bars.

01:13:38.800 He's a very political animal.

01:13:40.540 And he got his way.

01:13:42.380 I've told the story before.

01:13:43.360 I just want to mention it one other time because in the context, it's just so telling to me.

01:13:46.360 Um, one of the reasons we left New York City schools is because of their crazy obsession

01:13:50.700 with race essentialism and the trans obsession.

01:13:54.440 And, uh, our daughter Yardley was in school in this fancy Tony, New York City, private school,

01:14:00.380 fourth grade after this happened.

01:14:02.620 And the teacher got up, they gave the girls a Newzilla article to read about this case about

01:14:08.220 Derek Chauvin being convicted or being tried.

01:14:11.520 I think it was right after the conviction.

01:14:12.600 I'm trying to remember exactly where we were in the case.

01:14:14.220 But in any event, gave him the article and said, we're going to talk about it.

01:14:17.680 Then the teacher stood up and said, this country has a massive problem with cops killing unarmed

01:14:23.460 black men.

01:14:24.560 And one of the little girls had the temerity to say, wasn't George Floyd resisting arrest?

01:14:32.560 And the teacher's response was, they always blame the victim.

01:14:36.420 And then Yardley raised her hand and said, wasn't George Floyd on a lot of drugs?

01:14:42.940 At the time he died.

01:14:44.800 And the teacher responded with, this conversation is making me uncomfortable and I'm shutting

01:14:50.500 it down right now.

01:14:52.260 Look at this.

01:14:53.340 Those girls.

01:14:55.140 Yes, Jonna, those girls were zeroing in on exactly the right two things.

01:14:59.740 And they weren't allowed to explore it in front of their classmates because the damn teacher

01:15:03.720 was growing uncomfortable.

01:15:06.600 Shameful.

01:15:07.080 It's supposed to be the other way around, right?

01:15:08.740 Like maybe the teacher would make the kids feel uncomfortable, but the fourth graders aren't

01:15:11.640 supposed to make the teacher.

01:15:12.640 The teacher is supposed to be able to act and react to that and have maybe a conversation

01:15:17.240 about it.

01:15:17.880 Although I don't know, fourth grade, I'd rather them be learning like long division or whatever

01:15:21.860 they do in fourth grade than about a murder trial.

01:15:24.800 I mean, I think that's a parent's role.

01:15:26.460 If you want to discuss the current events.

01:15:28.240 Of course, they raised it because they want to do indoctrinate our daughters into their

01:15:32.220 left wing thinking, which is why we left that school.

01:15:34.440 And I'll tell you a happy story on the opposite end.

01:15:36.400 Now we moved to Connecticut and our kids are in new schools.

01:15:39.600 And of course, we checked them out before we selected them.

01:15:42.100 And I heard a story about this is not my daughter, but my son and his history teacher.

01:15:47.420 I heard this story that a few years back during the height of the Me Too movement, they were

01:15:51.200 reading some text or I don't know what it was, but it was something from, you know,

01:15:54.460 yesteryear, it wasn't a current text, but the text veered toward demonizing boys.

01:16:00.700 And this is an all boys school.

01:16:02.180 And one of the boys got up and ripped the pages in two and threw them on the ground and

01:16:07.220 said, I'm sick of this.

01:16:08.500 It's everywhere.

01:16:09.520 Boys are being demonized.

01:16:10.800 It's unfair.

01:16:11.820 And let me tell you, at that New York City school, you would have been in a shit ton of

01:16:15.300 trouble.

01:16:15.920 They would have called your parents about ripping up school books.

01:16:18.960 You would have been explained about toxic masculinity and why you may not know it, but you are

01:16:24.440 a secret feminist and all the stuff.

01:16:26.840 Right.

01:16:26.960 You have to accept.

01:16:27.980 And at this school, the teacher said, so interesting.

01:16:32.320 Let's talk about it.

01:16:33.420 Why do you feel that way?

01:16:34.540 And then said, who who else feels the way this kid does?

01:16:37.600 And I said, who disagrees with them?

01:16:38.980 And then they had a debate.

01:16:40.300 And the kid won some people over to his side and some people won, went over to the other

01:16:44.680 side.

01:16:45.020 And the teacher just allowed critical thinking and discussion and exploration of ideas.

01:16:49.780 That's the way it ought to be done.

01:16:50.980 All right.

01:16:51.200 Um, quick break coming back with this lawsuit that's now been filed about the COVID vaccine

01:16:59.100 allegedly killing a teenager and how parents are now finding a way to challenge the legal

01:17:06.180 system, which says they cannot sue, but they are stand by.

01:17:09.140 Back with me now, Jonna Spilboer of Jonna Spilboer Law and Arthur Idalla of the Arthur Idalla Power

01:17:20.540 Hour radio show.

01:17:22.280 All right, guys.

01:17:22.700 So a pair of lawsuits now in connection with the COVID vaccine, in particular this time,

01:17:28.660 the Pfizer one.

01:17:29.960 One is at our evil top hat neighbor, Canada.

01:17:33.640 That was Michael Knowles's description.

01:17:37.020 That makes me laugh.

01:17:38.760 Um, and one is right here in the United States.

01:17:41.780 Okay.

01:17:41.940 The first one, God bless this poor dad.

01:17:45.040 An Ontario man files a $35 million lawsuit against Pfizer over his son's vaccine death.

01:17:51.880 This is new to come to Ontario.

01:17:53.440 The dad's name is Dan Hartman has initiated a wrongful death lawsuit, wrongful death against

01:17:59.900 Pfizer because his son, Sean died from the COVID vaccine.

01:18:04.080 There is an American pathologist named Dr. Ryan Cole, who has determined as of this past

01:18:08.980 summer, indeed, that is what caused the son's death.

01:18:12.280 Uh, they went to the vaccine injury support program in March.

01:18:15.620 Uh, he was denied money.

01:18:17.900 This father was, his son died 33 days after receiving the Pfizer, uh, second vaccination.

01:18:25.960 Uh, his poor son, Sean was found deceased in his bedroom by his mother.

01:18:32.340 Uh, they said that he had problems after the first shot and then came the second shot and

01:18:38.780 30 days, 33 days later, he died.

01:18:42.020 Now in the United States, there is a similar case, but a different defendant, he's suing

01:18:49.620 Pfizer, this Ontario dad, but here in the U S there's a lawsuit against the department

01:18:56.120 of defense for its relationship to this vaccine and pushing it through the family of 24 year

01:19:03.980 old George Watts of Lockwood, New York has filed a lawsuit accusing the department of defense

01:19:08.640 of willful misconduct in the death of their son by deceiving millions of Americans into

01:19:14.340 taking the COVID vaccines, which they say were unsafe.

01:19:17.880 After taking two doses of the Pfizer vaccine, um, he, he died.

01:19:24.020 And, um, yeah, after the first dose, he experienced complications, which he chose to keep to himself.

01:19:29.680 After the second dose in mid-September, he experienced flu like symptoms and so on.

01:19:34.520 And shortly thereafter died, um, he began coughing up blood.

01:19:40.160 He had pain in his feet and his hands and his teeth, extremely sensitive to sunlight.

01:19:43.900 And by October 27th, 2021, he was dead.

01:19:48.920 Uh, absolutely awful stories.

01:19:51.080 So what do you guys make of it?

01:19:53.220 Because as you know, they're supposed to have immunity.

01:19:57.080 Pfizer is supposed to have immunity.

01:19:58.860 The federal government's supposed to have immunity from lawsuits like this.

01:20:02.240 So how do these parents get to bring these claims?

01:20:04.940 Who wants to start?

01:20:07.020 I'll start.

01:20:07.860 Can I start?

01:20:09.160 Yeah.

01:20:09.400 So, okay.

01:20:11.400 So a couple of things first that people need to understand is that what our government did

01:20:16.040 when they rolled out these vaccines, they had to bake into the cake immunity against

01:20:21.400 the vaccine manufacturers or else nobody was going to manufacture these vaccines.

01:20:25.100 Everybody knew from the get go that they were going to get sued.

01:20:28.040 People were going to die.

01:20:28.800 Things were going to happen.

01:20:29.520 And so you have to bake that into the cake and just like they did with the nursing home

01:20:33.380 cases, they granted nursing homes during COVID immunity from civil lawsuits for a period

01:20:39.400 of time.

01:20:40.000 And typically when that happens, the government plans to roll out some sort of fund to help

01:20:46.020 compensate the people who are damaged by whatever conduct the government has created.

01:20:50.340 Now, it sounds like they're trying to do that in the COVID cases, but some families are saying

01:20:56.960 that's not good enough.

01:20:58.820 And in order to get around the governmental immunity, which governments have against their

01:21:03.240 negligent acts by and large, and the federal government has that too with the Federal Tort

01:21:08.760 Claims Act, you can't get around immunity or a plaintiff can get around that provision if

01:21:15.900 they can prove that the government's conduct was reckless, that it violated your civil rights

01:21:21.660 and that it wasn't a matter of mere negligence.

01:21:25.040 And so these cases are saying, look, it was reckless.

01:21:29.180 It violated our civil rights because we have a right to life, liberty and happiness.

01:21:33.620 And well, if you're dead, your civil rights have been violated and you did so recklessly

01:21:37.840 for whatever your agenda was to roll out these vaccines without the proper protocol or what

01:21:42.900 have you.

01:21:43.560 It's a good avenue, Megan.

01:21:45.340 I know it sounds like it's going to be a long shot, but it is a good avenue to get around

01:21:49.860 the government claims of immunity and it just might work.

01:21:52.900 And if it does work, it could be big.

01:21:54.920 It'll be a large class action.

01:21:56.400 That's my prediction.

01:21:57.780 And perhaps that's the right way to go.

01:22:00.180 Arthur, let me just clarify because I made a mistake in describing the cases.

01:22:02.720 The first boy, the one in Ontario, he died after the first shot.

01:22:08.000 It was the second young man out of New York, Lockwood, New York, who had some symptoms after

01:22:13.760 shot number one, but that he kept to himself, it says the lawsuit, including blood in his

01:22:19.280 urine, and then went on to get the second shot anyway and died thereafter.

01:22:24.700 So just to clarify, one died after the first shot, one died after the second.

01:22:28.080 Go ahead.

01:22:28.280 So if I could be pragmatic for a second, if I was the dad of either of these tragic deaths,

01:22:36.560 I would just go to Pfizer privately and say, hey, how do you feel about setting up a foundation

01:22:40.600 in the name of my son, knowing that three people, there's some fund of people, the vaccination

01:22:47.400 fund, and all three of them together, they've gotten a total of $5,000.

01:22:52.980 One got $1,000, one got $2,000, one got $1,000.

01:22:55.880 So I don't think there's really a lot of good law on this for these plaintiffs, especially

01:23:02.820 since, yes, I understand these two boys died tragically.

01:23:06.320 And how many millions and millions and millions of Americans had no reaction, if any.

01:23:12.300 So I don't see them, and God forbid, this happens again, and some sort of a pandemic.

01:23:19.540 Do we really want to set precedence to the manufacturers of the drugs, saying, yeah, we

01:23:26.320 know at the time when we really needed you, we said you were going to have immunity.

01:23:30.320 Three years later, we changed our mind, and you don't.

01:23:33.020 And now anyone who had any kind of reaction to the COVID vaccine is going to be able to sue

01:23:38.520 you.

01:23:39.160 You can't have that precedent.

01:23:40.580 You have to actually, you have to protect the manufacturers.

01:23:45.340 Here's how clever the government is, though, Arthur.

01:23:48.040 They grant immunity to the drug companies for a period of time so that the statute of

01:23:54.260 limitations will have run for any wrongful death claims by the time they lift that immunity.

01:23:59.760 So the government looks like they're, oh, we're lifting the immunity, great.

01:24:02.800 But the people who actually need to sue the companies for wrongful death will have surpassed

01:24:08.560 their statute of limitations.

01:24:09.620 So it's a win-win for the government and for the drug companies and not for the people,

01:24:15.720 which is why they have to sue the federal government under a civil rights violation.

01:24:21.760 And that's how I think they can get in under the wire and get some sort of actual relief that

01:24:28.060 these families obviously deserve.

01:24:30.020 There, but can't you get, look, it's, but the standard right now, even if we don't change

01:24:35.360 anything, the standard right now is if you can prove willful misconduct, you can get after

01:24:39.020 them.

01:24:39.320 You can get them willful misconduct.

01:24:41.020 So what they're alleging, like in the first case out of Ontario, they're alleging that

01:24:45.680 the Pfizer owed a duty of care to Sean Hartman, the young boy, to accurately inform him of all

01:24:51.160 the risks associated with this vaccine and that, hold on, let me get to it.

01:24:58.780 They provided an incorrect characterization of the efficacy data, discontinued results of

01:25:06.720 adverse events on vaccinated people in the study and on from there.

01:25:12.140 That's true.

01:25:13.600 We had an episode.

01:25:14.700 It was number 201.

01:25:15.720 The guy's name was Brian Dressen, and he was talking about this exact experience when

01:25:21.180 it came to the AstraZeneca trials.

01:25:23.900 So right after she got the shot, we were driving home and she said something doesn't feel right.

01:25:30.640 She had tingling down her arm where she got the shot.

01:25:33.700 She started to notice that her vision was changing.

01:25:36.980 Her ears became very, very sensitive to sound.

01:25:40.360 They didn't offer any help to you.

01:25:41.900 You were on your own in dealing with the fallout from it.

01:25:44.720 And then it seems like, you know, the other shoe to drop was when you saw her negative

01:25:52.140 outcome was not included in the results of the clinical trial.

01:25:57.880 Right.

01:25:58.640 The test clinic sort of didn't seem super interested.

01:26:02.060 The feedback we were getting from AstraZeneca was essentially, we need a diagnosis.

01:26:07.860 We need a diagnosis.

01:26:09.020 Anything that would essentially absolve them of any responsibility.

01:26:12.880 If they can get there and they're going to be able to get their hands on people like that

01:26:18.300 to say it was willful.

01:26:20.800 This was a willful attempt to mislead by companies like Pfizer and Moderna.

01:26:26.200 You know why?

01:26:27.160 Because it was worth billions, billions to them.

01:26:31.080 And there's your exception to the governmental immunity.

01:26:36.260 Boom.

01:26:36.740 That's a home run right there.

01:26:39.800 And I think that's going to be very provable.

01:26:41.760 And the government's going to have to step up and do the right thing.

01:26:46.260 I mean, it wasn't that long ago, guys.

01:26:48.040 Remember, we were forced.

01:26:50.140 You were forced to get vaccinated depending on where you work.

01:26:53.300 You couldn't go to a restaurant in New York City without showing your vaccine.

01:26:59.340 You couldn't do anything without showing your vaccine card.

01:27:02.780 That's forced.

01:27:04.120 And to do that without the proper testing or lying to us about the results, which I'm

01:27:08.440 positive the government did, is just flat out wrong.

01:27:11.640 And now it's time to pay the piper.

01:27:13.120 And I feel very sorry for these families who lost children.

01:27:16.600 It's bad enough.

01:27:17.240 We have plenty of families who lost elderly people.

01:27:19.280 No, death is okay.

01:27:20.980 But the people who especially lost otherwise healthy children, it's not acceptable.

01:27:25.620 And there is okay.

01:27:26.620 But it really wasn't forced.

01:27:28.460 In other words, in the lawsuit, in the lawsuit, they say, well, one kid wanted to play hockey.

01:27:34.300 That's why he got the vaccine.

01:27:35.840 And another kid had the option of going to school online, but he didn't want to.

01:27:41.860 So he got the shot so he could go in person.

01:27:44.100 That's not a legal definition of force.

01:27:46.720 And you know what?

01:27:47.760 John, we're being lawyers now.

01:27:49.720 We're not being like what it should be.

01:27:51.600 We're talking about a Supreme Court of the United States looking at the law, being a

01:27:55.960 strict constructionist like Amy Comey Barrett is, the way she was taught by Justice Scalia.

01:28:00.240 Nobody was forced to get the shot.

01:28:03.880 There were some circumstances, like in the city, you're going to lose your job.

01:28:07.020 But these particular cases, to go play hockey, or all our kids did online learning, they were

01:28:15.020 not forced.

01:28:15.660 You can't use the word forced.

01:28:16.920 They were not forced to.

01:28:19.480 Go ahead, John.

01:28:20.300 Well, I think we probably will redefine force then.

01:28:25.040 Because otherwise, if we had listened to the government and didn't want to get vaccinated,

01:28:28.280 then you were going to be shut in in your house with scare tactics daily.

01:28:33.700 There are plenty of people who are, John.

01:28:34.900 There are plenty of people who are, I don't think.

01:28:36.680 Not only were you going to die, but you were going to kill other people if you didn't get

01:28:42.520 the vaccine.

01:28:43.560 I mean, come on.

01:28:44.260 That was manipulative.

01:28:45.680 No, because that's the thing, Arthur.

01:28:47.480 She has a point.

01:28:48.260 She's like, are we really going to be at the point where unless you had a gun to your head

01:28:51.240 and you were told, get this vaccine or you get the bullet, it doesn't count as forced.

01:28:55.340 Because you're losing your jobs.

01:28:57.420 People were fired from the military.

01:28:58.760 They were fired from teaching jobs.

01:29:00.740 They were fired from hospital jobs.

01:29:02.540 They couldn't play sports.

01:29:04.360 They couldn't go to school if they refused to get the vaccine.

01:29:07.360 At our own school, it's been great on the woke stuff, but not so great on the COVID stuff.

01:29:10.980 These kids were going to be expelled unless they got that shot at age 16.

01:29:17.200 Thankfully, our kids were younger, so they didn't have to face that yet.

01:29:19.740 But that is a form of force that was exerted.

01:29:23.740 And it's not just going to be these two plaintiffs who suffered negative consequences.

01:29:28.620 Expelled is a lot different than I can't play hockey, right?

01:29:32.300 I mean, getting expelled from school is a lot different than what kids are.

01:29:36.520 Okay, the bottom line is there's got to be precedent on this, right?

01:29:39.700 Kids all have to get vaccinated to go to school, at least here in New York.

01:29:44.060 You know, my daughter, who's two, she's getting a shot every six months of something.

01:29:48.180 So there's got to be some legal precedent on how these cases have played out through the years that we can rely on.

01:29:54.940 I just don't see that the government here is going to say,

01:29:58.420 let's let manufacturers of a drug that saved people's lives,

01:30:03.960 let's have them now be liable when we told them you weren't going to be liable because the next time this comes up.

01:30:10.540 We told them they wouldn't be liable for negligence.

01:30:13.920 We didn't tell them that they would not be liable for willful misconduct.

01:30:17.560 And by the way, if they had tried to say that, it would not be upheld by a court.

01:30:20.740 You can't immunize Pfizer or Moderna for willful malfeasance behind the scenes,

01:30:27.000 for knowingly endangering people, which is what is being alleged.

01:30:30.700 If they can go to court, Arthur, and show plaintiff after plaintiff who knows somebody who we have witnessed after what is who was dumped from the trial

01:30:38.580 because their participation would make the results look bad, they're in a shit ton of trouble.

01:30:44.560 But Pfizer didn't approve the drug.

01:30:46.440 FDA approved the drug.

01:30:47.660 So you're saying the government, of course, that's true.

01:30:50.420 But wait, so Pfizer has no consequences as a result.

01:30:53.280 Listen, here's my drug.

01:30:55.520 You guys are going to test it.

01:30:56.620 We think it's good.

01:30:57.520 But you make the last call.

01:30:59.060 You make the ultimate decision.

01:31:00.820 We think it's OK.

01:31:01.540 Pfizer made representations.

01:31:03.500 Pfizer made independent representations about the safety and efficacy of its drugs.

01:31:07.640 So did Moderna.

01:31:08.760 This other kid or this other young man, George Watts, 24, he took he took Pfizer,

01:31:13.160 but he died, according to the autopsy record from the Bradford County coroner's office.

01:31:17.660 Of myocarditis, vaccine related myocarditis, which is inflammation of the heart.

01:31:22.760 We've seen this over and over and over.

01:31:24.860 It wasn't acknowledged in the early days by any of these vaccine companies.

01:31:29.080 And then when smart doctors started to talk about it, it was all deny, downplay.

01:31:35.420 There's that sinus medication we've all been buying.

01:31:37.800 It's supposed to clear you up that they said it works.

01:31:40.360 It works.

01:31:40.660 It works.

01:31:40.880 The FDA just said, you know what?

01:31:42.640 We realize it doesn't work.

01:31:44.020 Yes, we approved it.

01:31:45.160 We made a mistake at CVS and Rite Aid.

01:31:47.120 They all pulled it off the shelves because it doesn't work.

01:31:49.680 It's the it's the government's job.

01:31:51.680 That's why we're paying all these taxes to the FDA.

01:31:53.560 The government sucks.

01:31:54.700 To make the ultimate decision.

01:31:55.980 Excuse me.

01:31:56.320 Yes, I agree.

01:31:56.920 The government sucks and they should pay.

01:31:58.280 But it doesn't get Pfizer off the hook.

01:32:00.060 What what nasal spray are you talking about?

01:32:02.620 What is this?

01:32:03.180 It's all over the place.

01:32:05.860 It's I think it's got a long, long word.

01:32:08.320 I know the one that is good is Sudafed.

01:32:10.980 I shouldn't say names that I don't know that whether there's a problem.

01:32:14.160 I don't know.

01:32:14.620 There's two of them that sound different.

01:32:16.160 That sound very similar.

01:32:17.360 One of them works and one of them does not work.

01:32:19.920 They did this long term test with the placebo and the placebo worked just as well as the drug.

01:32:25.880 And it's been on the shelves.

01:32:27.320 I don't know which one it is.

01:32:29.080 Fenylephrine.

01:32:29.680 I believe it's the one that does not work is fenylephrine.

01:32:32.160 And the FDA has approved it.

01:32:34.280 The drug companies have said, yeah, it works.

01:32:36.360 I don't think anyone died from it.

01:32:38.080 How about all the money we've spent on it?

01:32:40.580 It's just not a negative effect.

01:32:41.980 Yeah, that's different.

01:32:42.780 Yeah, that's different if it didn't have a negative effect.

01:32:44.360 My apologies to fluconazine or whatever that other one is called.

01:32:46.920 The nasal sprays bring back like childhood trauma.

01:32:49.080 My mom was a nurse.

01:32:49.720 She was always trying to shove one of those up my nose.

01:32:51.220 I ran.

01:32:51.920 I hated it.

01:32:53.200 All right.

01:32:53.420 Yeah, Afrin.

01:32:54.560 I got to finish with Kohlberger.

01:32:56.780 So the court in the Brian Kohlberger case out in Idaho has said cameras will be allowed.

01:33:03.900 Great, because I do believe that we have a right to see what happens there.

01:33:07.500 And also has rejected his lawyer's attempt to have the entire indictment dismissed.

01:33:14.960 They claimed that the grand jury should have been using a standard before deciding whether

01:33:20.540 to indict him of beyond a reasonable doubt instead of a preponderance of the evidence,

01:33:27.000 which is a very weird argument and to me just underscores the desperation of the defense

01:33:33.360 attorneys here, Jonna.

01:33:34.580 I mean, like what kind of that's just a specious argument.

01:33:38.320 It underscores the duty of the defense attorneys, Megan, because, look, they're creating a record

01:33:43.640 for when this guy gets convicted for the appeal that will follow.

01:33:47.320 You have to do this.

01:33:48.460 It's it's, you know, standard operating procedure that you're going to challenge the grand jury

01:33:51.980 indictment.

01:33:52.460 You're going to make any plausible argument that you can make, and there's a 99.99% chance

01:33:57.200 that the judge is going to, you know, shut it down.

01:34:00.240 So we didn't expect that to work, but they do have to create their record along the way,

01:34:05.200 and that's what that's what they did.

01:34:07.540 OK, and Megan, sometimes the Hail Mary, I apologize, but sometimes the Hail Mary works.

01:34:13.680 My firm filed five of these types of motions, rejected by five judges after the conviction,

01:34:19.160 the court of appeal, the lower court of the appellate court said, no, actually, they were

01:34:23.920 right.

01:34:24.420 And they threw the whole case out because they said the grand jury proceeding was ineffective.

01:34:28.240 So you never know.

01:34:29.080 But I would definitely classify this as a Hail Mary.

01:34:32.580 New York is so quick.

01:34:34.000 It's so weird because they call the trial court the Supreme Court and they call the intermediate

01:34:38.660 appellate court the appellate court.

01:34:39.980 Then they call the top, top court the court of appeals, which is not the top, top court at

01:34:44.560 the federal level.

01:34:45.180 Well, that's the immediate appellate court and like how and and of course, at the federal

01:34:48.680 level, the Supreme Court's the highest.

01:34:50.100 How are people like lay people supposed to follow that nonsense?

01:34:52.560 I know not.

01:34:53.560 What do you make of cameras being allowed in the courtroom?

01:34:55.480 Because it will likely be another grounds for appeal if and when Brian Kohlberger gets

01:35:00.580 convicted.

01:35:01.340 His lawyers did not want it.

01:35:03.840 They think that he's already been misrepresented.

01:35:06.220 They think they complained that screen grabs have been like misused by tabloid media.

01:35:10.620 Jonna, the judge says he's going to try to control it more.

01:35:14.040 I don't know how.

01:35:14.960 But have we seen cameras in the courtroom ever used as an effective grounds for appeal

01:35:19.640 that you know of?

01:35:21.440 I can't think of a case.

01:35:23.020 Look, the people love this stuff.

01:35:24.940 We do have a right to know this may end up helping him.

01:35:27.760 How many times have we gone into a big trial with preconceived notions that the defendant

01:35:31.680 is guilty or Johnny Depp is guilty?

01:35:33.280 And then all of a sudden cameras in the courtroom.

01:35:35.000 We change our minds.

01:35:36.280 It's a good thing, not a bad thing.

01:35:37.740 It's not going to be a ground for appeal.

01:35:39.120 I respectfully disagree.

01:35:40.700 Megan, if you or someone you love was having open heart surgery, would you want the surgeon

01:35:46.060 to be on the learning channel doing the open heart surgery and adding yet another distraction

01:35:52.080 to that room?

01:35:53.280 Or do you want him to be laser or her to be laser focused on the open heart surgery?

01:35:57.720 But there's enough things you got to deal with in a courtroom when you're trying a case

01:36:00.880 and someone's life is on the line.

01:36:02.280 I don't need a camera in my face.

01:36:03.720 I'll just go on Kelly's court, get all the camera out of my system, and I'll be happy.

01:36:08.280 It's scary being on with the two of you.

01:36:10.540 The two of you women just scare me, you know?

01:36:13.200 I'm used to being here with eyegash, you know?

01:36:15.600 But you, gorgeous, dynamic, intelligent, charming, it's too much for me.

01:36:20.380 I'm scared.

01:36:20.980 I'm scared.

01:36:21.280 Go on, go on.

01:36:21.940 We only have 16 minutes to break, but continue.

01:36:24.740 There's 16 seconds.

01:36:26.240 Panel, it was a pleasure, as always.

01:36:28.400 Two of the OGs from Kelly's court.

01:36:29.980 It used to be Kendall's court.

01:36:30.920 That's how long ago we started this, when I was married to a different person.

01:36:34.600 Love you guys.

01:36:35.320 See you soon.

01:36:36.420 Thank you.

01:36:36.960 Be well.

01:36:37.340 And thanks to all of you for listening today.

01:36:40.540 I enjoyed Kelly's court.

01:36:41.560 I have to say, we needed that.

01:36:43.360 All right.

01:36:43.660 See you tomorrow.

01:36:47.500 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:36:49.360 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - October 30, 2023

Media Spreading Hamas Propaganda, and COVID Vaccine Lawsuits, with Michael Oren, Arthur Aidala, and Jonna Spilbor ｜ Ep. 658

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript