Meghan Markle and Prince Harry have been accused of being racist by some on social media, and Meghan has been accused by others of being a hypocrite. This week on The Meghan & Harry Show, host Meghan talks to journalist and biographer Tom Bauer about why Meghan and Harry are so hard on each other. Plus, we hear from a woman who is taking her free speech case all the way to the Supreme Court.
00:11:37.880Of course, you spend some time in the book on how there's been so much speculation about whether Charles is indeed the biological father of Harry.
00:11:45.700And how some were trying to get a hair sample of some of her lovers to see whether, well, to get a hair sample from Harry to see whether it matched up with the biology of another lover.
00:11:56.220Something that Harry's had to live with, too, wondering in the speculation.
00:11:59.700So there are similarities between Diana and Meghan Markle in that way, in that they've suffered some they both suffered some negative coverage, but they both have manipulated the press.
00:12:11.700I mean, Meghan is one of the first to manipulate the press.
00:12:14.300She claims she wants privacy, but she's working press opportunities every day.
00:12:18.460I mean, she loved to see herself on the cover of Vanity Fair.
00:12:21.420There's no reason in the world they would have ever put her on that cover had it not been for the fact that she was dating Harry, but she pretended like she had accomplished something wonderful as a philanthropist that would land her on the cover.
00:12:34.760So Harry himself has been guilty of this, trying to compare her to Diana, compare her to Diana.
00:12:39.900The same thing's going to happen to her if the press keeps writing negative things.
00:12:43.100And you you point out that these two misunderstand Diana entirely, both what most especially what made the press interested in and what made many love her.
00:12:55.660Well, yeah, I think that's that's the problem.
00:12:57.960But they play the Diana card, just as I would say that, unfortunately, in some way, Meghan plays the race card is always the victim.
00:13:06.620And the victim is always gets unquestioned sympathy without question.
00:13:11.520And that's the way it plays at the moment in society.
00:13:14.400And Harry likes to portray Meghan as Diana, but they've got actually nothing in common at all, because Diana, for all her criticism of Charles, was always absolutely loyal to the Queen and completely loyal to the monarchy.
00:13:29.220And although obviously she thought about herself in terms of her life, she would never put herself above the monarchy, which, of course, was the downfall of Meghan in Britain, that she wanted to be number one.
00:13:44.280And they play the Diana card to suggest that when she is criticized, her fate will be the same as Diana's.
00:13:51.080But I think most people have seen through that now.
00:13:53.580They were shocked at the beginning and sympathetic.
00:13:55.720But I think to that extent, the sympathy is running thin now.
00:14:00.480Well, you spent some time on how Meghan Markle didn't quite understand or, if she understood, wouldn't accept that there is very much a hierarchy inside of the royal family.
00:14:11.860And Harry's had to abide by it and she needed to abide by it.
00:14:15.400But it was one of the things that most frustrated her.
00:14:18.080Well, I think frustrated is the right word, but on the other hand, also annoyed her.
00:14:25.800The point is that Meghan, being an intelligent woman and educated and by then already 34, she knew exactly when she joined Harry and moved into Kensington Palace that there was a hierarchy and that she was he was number six in line to the throne.
00:14:41.800I think she was disappointed, to say the least, that he wasn't very rich, because she couldn't understand how a prince in Britain could not have a huge amount of money.
00:14:51.700And I think she thought she would be using her platform, as she put it, to campaign for her causes.
00:14:58.580But she was told long before they married that that was out of the question.
00:15:12.640She wanted the authority and the fame.
00:15:14.940And I always believe, and that's how I described it in my book, that she kept all the relationships in Hollywood going.
00:15:22.360She had them all to her wedding because she wanted to celebrate with them and do them the favor of coming to Windsor Castle, that spectacular event.
00:16:21.140She she felt that they should be treated as equals.
00:16:24.540And yet she joined an organization in which they're they're not equals.
00:16:29.000Well, I think the big shock came to her in a way when she moved into Kensington Palace and Harry has got a two stroke three small cottage in that complex.
00:16:41.760And literally on the other side of the corridor, Kate and William have a 22 room apartment with two kitchens.
00:16:50.260And so that came as a bit of a shock to Meghan.
00:16:53.640But I think that was a shock she could overcome because she didn't intend to stay.
00:16:58.420And that was the other part of the problem, so to speak.
00:17:01.740But, of course, the two women didn't get off and are not surprised.
00:17:05.880And I don't blame Meghan entirely for that, because Meghan was a self-made woman.
00:17:31.320And she is going to be and is now a terrific ambassador for the monarchy and for Britain in a way that Meghan could never be a representative of anybody because there's only one person she can represent.
00:17:43.820But they weren't going to get on, especially at the time that Meghan arrived, when Kate already had two children, was pregnant with a third.
00:17:52.440She had suffered very bad morning sickness.
00:17:55.760So she didn't have the time, which Meghan felt that she was entitled to, to be to be look after Meghan.
00:18:03.060And Meghan thought that she was entitled to be treated like royalty plus.
00:18:21.200And the fact that Harry had to walk behind William, the future king.
00:18:25.120And then we saw in the Oprah interview, she claimed that the truth of the relationship with Kate Middleton is that Kate abused her, that Meghan never made Kate cry.
00:18:37.860And that what was so infuriating about watching the press coverage for Meghan was that she was, in fact, the victim and the media was reporting that she was the aggressor and that Kate was so out of line with Meghan.
00:18:52.220She brought Meghan flowers to apologize to her.
00:18:55.940And that shows that Kate was in the wrong and she had to sit back and and be powerless, feel powerless with the media reports that she was the one antagonizing Kate.
00:19:06.160She went, as she did in every chapter of your book.
00:19:08.800I mean, like she continues to go to everybody at the palace saying, get that lie out of the press.
00:19:18.740But she was very frustrated that the palace wouldn't go out there and start bashing Kate in the press by saying, oh, no, no, Kate's the bully.
00:19:26.500Who who wronged whom in that relationship?
00:19:30.100Well, I think we've got to start with the Oprah interview.
00:19:32.020I mean, I think that we've all counted here in Britain about 17 what we might call inaccuracies or lies that Meghan told Oprah and Oprah didn't challenge Meghan on any of them.
00:19:45.020And I think on the Kate front, I have absolutely no doubt at all that it was Kate who cried because Meghan, as I show in the book, is a bully.
00:19:54.000And Kate's unhappiness really stemmed from the fact that Meghan's staff, which she shared with Kate, were constantly complaining that Meghan was treating them appallingly and bullying them, cutting them dead, isolating them, humiliating them.
00:20:11.600And if there's any doubt about Meghan's ability to her treatment of people, you've got to read the chapter of her photo filming in Montreal for the Reitman's ad, a department store in Canada, where she bullied the crew mercilessly.
00:20:31.900And so I think there's no doubt in my mind, and I don't think anyone else does, that it was Meghan who was cutting up Kate, who's a very polite, humble person.
00:21:57.540It wasn't until she started to make her positions clear and continuously play the victim from the palace that people started to get a feel of who she really was.
00:22:08.960And then the public opinion turned, and so did the press.
00:22:13.260Well, I think you're right in giving me two, I think, two things which are important.
00:22:18.060First of all, remember, she leaked this extraordinary story to People magazine about how she was being mistreated by her father and by the palace.
00:22:27.020And that was absolutely something which was absolutely extraordinary.
00:22:29.920But I talked for two days with Meghan's father, Thomas, in Mexico.
00:22:36.760And at one moment, he turned to me and said, you know, it's all my fault.
00:23:17.240I mean, it's a survival of the fittest in Hollywood.
00:23:20.720But even even megastars treat people well on the way up because they might need them on the way down.
00:23:27.340An old cliche says, but it's rather sad.
00:23:30.620But it is the reality of Meghan's life.
00:23:33.960That comment about, you know, whatever she wanted, she could have reminds me of your other reporting.
00:23:39.020And I think Dan Wooden reported this as well on Tiara Gate and Harry's behavior in stepping into that same role.
00:23:45.620You know, she's going to have what she wants.
00:23:48.580And his behavior and hers around the tiara she was going to wear to the royal wedding was dreadful with respect to, in particular, the queen's dresser.
00:24:01.120Yes, but that shows you not only Meghan's demands, but also that she could manipulate Harry to fear that if she didn't get what she wanted, in this case, the tiara,
00:24:15.620and being able to use it for a hairdressing appointment before the wedding, that Meghan would be unhappy.
00:24:24.940Harry is always terrified that Meghan would leave him.
00:24:28.260He was terrified during their courtship.
00:24:30.780He was terrified even before the wedding.
00:24:33.060I think he's probably scared now as well that she might just dump him.
00:24:37.120She's very good at making men feel they're dispensable.
00:24:42.540After all, she has a good track record of treating men like that.
00:24:45.620And so, whereas I, for example, think that they did an extraordinary job in trying to help her understand Britain, understand her new role,
00:24:56.040she is contemptible of people who are nice to her.
00:25:01.460She sees niceness, in my view, as weakness.
00:25:05.020She doesn't fear people who are kind to her.
00:25:08.900And she only shows those she fears some respect.
00:25:15.000That's the battling gene of this woman.
00:25:16.560She wanted this tiara and her hairdresser came over from the United States and they wanted the tiara for a dress rehearsal for not even a dress rehearsal,
00:25:26.580just for the stylist to do Meghan's hair in practice.
00:25:29.760And he wanted to work with the actual tiara.
00:25:32.540And they didn't arrange it with Angela Kelly, who dressed the queen and oversaw the use of the crown jewels on the monarch or a family member.
00:39:41.160I think that the king has spent an enormous amount of time developing extraordinary relationships with all the diverse communities in Britain.
00:39:49.620And I must tell you that here in Britain, we think it's a bit rich for Meghan in California, a state which has got his own racial problems, to blame the British or racism.
00:40:02.420You know, we're, on the whole, a pretty tolerant society.
00:40:07.340There was a chapter here where we had Prince Harry lecturing the world on white privilege.
00:40:13.280It was like, maybe you should take a seat on white privilege.
00:40:17.940That moment with Oprah, where she accused the royals, she refused to name the person of being a bunch of racists.
00:40:27.400She wouldn't even say, because Oprah did not follow up in the moment by saying,
00:40:32.280can you at least rule out the queen or Prince Philip, who is dying at this moment in hospital?
00:40:37.800Oprah didn't follow up and they didn't rule him out until the next day when, you know, the clamor had reached fever pitch.
00:40:44.320Um, so we, we never got a name, but you have extraordinary reporting in your book on what this was likely based on and how it doesn't match up to what Meghan said.
00:40:55.200Here's the clip sought six from the Oprah interview.
00:41:00.260In those months when I was pregnant, all around this same time.
00:41:06.100So we have in tandem the conversation of he won't be given security.
00:42:12.120So tell us what you actually, what your reporting shows happened.
00:42:17.000Well, well, of course, that was brilliant of you to bring that clip up because the body language just showed her discomfort as she dug deeper into her own hole.
00:42:26.940I mean, the truth is this, that there are two truths.
00:42:30.020So the first truth is that the conversation I'm told and I believe was very early on in their relationship when Harry is bowled over by Meghan and is desperately in love and already is talking about marriage.
00:42:44.160But long before their engagement is even announced, let alone they're married and she's pregnant.
00:42:51.300And he's sitting in Clarence's house with then Prince Charles and Camilla.
00:42:56.580And Camilla just laughingly says, well, any child you'll have will probably have brown skin and ginger hair.
00:43:54.760And secondly, I don't believe and no one has believed that there was any conversations about the colour of Archie's skin or taking away privileges because of his colour, potential colour.
00:44:06.460Well, in any case, it's completely white.
00:44:38.460And that was one of the headlines that she wanted.
00:44:43.460She sought to damage Camilla and to his disgrace, disloyalty, while telling the truth, Harry, about the timeline, did not say that it wasn't intended as racist.
00:45:00.960So, and by the way, just to back you up on that, Harry comes out and says, I'm not going to share the conversation, but at the time it was awkward.
00:45:42.180They're taking everything away from him because of his brown skin.
00:45:45.040And it dovetails perfectly with her most recent claim to the Cut magazine, Tom, about how, oh, the British press has been calling my babies the N-word, my children the N-word.
00:45:58.580Because if the British press had called her children the N-word, it would have been an international scandal.
00:46:05.840What I believe probably happened, if anything, is some moron commentator may have said something racist in one of the many comments below one of the many articles.
00:46:15.060And these two, who are so obsessed with their press coverage, may have seen the comment and, like they did here, blown it up into the larger narrative about how they're being treated by the evil family or the evil press.
00:46:31.400And I think what you must add as well into this is that, of course, when Archie was born, within 24 hours, Megan made a statement that she did not want Archie to have a title.
00:46:44.540And when she was visited by an official and told that automatically Archie would be called Lord Dumbarton, she said, no, no, no child of mine is going to be called Dumb and refused to accept the title.
00:46:57.820So she had already said that she didn't want any titles for her children.
00:47:02.600But more importantly, she knew that the children while in Britain would always get protection and were protected.
00:47:12.460And it doesn't show well on opera that she didn't challenge these falsehoods.
00:47:17.600But the idea as well that Megan put around at that time in the interview, that they take away her passports, take away her keys, take away her liberty.
00:47:28.540She went to a baby shower in New York.
00:47:31.820She went to see a Williams play in a tennis match.
00:47:55.260The book explains what the heck George Clooney was doing at her wedding, why Amal Clooney showed up at her baby shower, her absolute zero connection to Oprah.
00:48:22.800Yeah, I'm sure it's going to be a big hit over here as well.
00:48:25.380Okay, we're going to be right back with a website designer whose case is going up to the U.S. Supreme Court in what is likely to be a landmark decision on just what they can force you to say when it may conflict with your religious beliefs or other beliefs for that matter.
00:49:56.060The U.S. Supreme Court began its new term this week, and the justices will hear cases on some of America's hottest issues, including race, elections, and free speech.
00:50:10.660Our guests today are no strangers to free speech litigation.
00:50:15.240Lori Smith is a graphic artist, a website creator, and the owner of a company called 303 Creative.
00:50:21.240Lori wanted to expand her work to create wedding websites that celebrated marriage between a man and a woman.
00:50:27.520But a Colorado law says she must promote all messages, regardless of whether they violate her religious beliefs.
00:50:34.820And so if a lesbian couple comes in and says, we want you to do a website promoting that, you have to do it.
00:50:40.440Lori decided that that law was unfair, and she challenged it.
00:50:44.500And after a lower court ruled against her, the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against her, she asked the U.S. Supreme Court to hear her case, and now they have agreed to, and this case will be one of the biggest cases to follow in this term.
00:50:59.740Lori Smith joins us now, along with her attorney, Kristen Wagoner, who is president, CEO, and general counsel of ADF Legal.
00:52:13.560So we had liberals and conservatives joining to say, no, we're not going to make the baker bake the cake for the gay couple when it contradicts his religious views, although that one's ongoing.
00:52:24.660So we'll get back to what's happening with him.
00:52:26.580Let's start with you, Lori, and thank you so much for being here.
00:52:29.160So just give us a little bit about your background.
00:52:55.280And we spent a lot of time just as a child in her store watching her run her business.
00:53:02.760And as I got older, I would help create artwork and storefront displays and even the artwork on the postcards that we used to hand stamp and mail out.
00:54:38.880So to be clear, did anybody ask you to make a lesbian wedding or a gay wedding website for you or you just saw the Colorado law and realized trouble was coming?
00:54:50.160I have had requests for same sex weddings, but I think the biggest issue for me is, as I looked around at the way the state was treating other people of faith, it was obvious that the state is censoring my speech.
00:55:03.600So I really didn't feel like I had much of a choice other than to stand to protect my right to speak freely, because this is not only about protecting my speech.
00:55:13.180It's about protecting everyone's speech, even the LGBT web designer who doesn't want to be forced to, you know, oppose same sex marriage in their work.
00:55:26.140Yes, for me, but ultimately for every American.
00:55:29.680And let me let me just put a little meat on the bones.
00:55:31.760When we talk about a wedding website, what is that?
00:55:35.240Like what, you know, back in my day, you'd have like maybe a registry, but there wasn't like what is what is a wedding website?
00:55:41.340I know they've come a long ways even since my own wedding, but wedding websites are a way to tell a story.
00:55:48.660I'm a storyteller that began back in my mom's boutique many years ago when these brides would come in with their mothers and tell the story of their relationship.
00:55:59.200And so a wedding website, yes, it incorporates a wedding registry, but it's artwork for me.
00:56:05.520Each and every client that I take on or project that I take on is unique and one of a kind.
00:56:12.260I'm not creating template websites or or plug and play type websites.
00:56:17.080Clients come to me because they want a story to be told.
00:56:20.660So in this case, telling the story of marriage between a man and a woman is important and unique.
00:56:27.660Like, yeah, they wouldn't want you because, you know, you want somebody who gets it and, you know, feel supportive of it.
00:56:34.820You wouldn't want somebody who's like, well, I've got some problems with this doing your wedding.
00:56:38.620So like it's it doesn't work out even if it's forced, especially if it's forced.
00:56:42.740Now I know what you're talking about, because this reminds me of back when I was at Fox, my pal Brett Baer.
00:56:46.820It came out. Somebody in the newsroom discovered that Brett and Amy had one of these and it told the story of their love and fall.
00:56:55.000And we mocked him mercilessly. It was the sweetest thing.
00:57:00.080It was super fun. They are very much in love.
00:57:02.740OK, so now Laurie said they're censoring my speech, Kristen.
00:57:08.040But they're they're doing two things like this law.
00:57:10.400It's censoring her. It's telling her you cannot post certain things on your own website, your business website.
00:57:15.640And it's also trying to compel speech, which is also unconstitutional, by saying you must say the following things.
00:57:24.660So can you just frame for us how they're doing those two things?
00:57:29.040Sure. Well, there are two different components of the law.
00:57:32.380The first component basically says that if Laurie decides that she wants to speak on the issue of marriage to use unique stories,
00:57:40.580to share her faith vision of what marriage is, then she actually has to share the opposite view as well.
00:57:46.620So if she decides to go in and design custom websites and again, I think it's important, Megan, to understand these are not plug and play websites.
00:57:58.240If she decides to do that to show the beauty of marriage as her faith teaches her, then she also has to show and do custom websites that shows the other view of marriage in terms of being between same sex marriage.
00:58:12.380And so that's one way that the law compels her speech.
00:58:15.100It says if you're entering this area, you have to speak messages that violate your convictions.
00:58:20.040A second component of the law, though, also says, and you can't speak out in terms of what your own beliefs are on your own website because it might make a customer feel unwelcome.
00:58:31.660So Laurie's view of marriage, she's not able to share on that website either.
00:58:35.420And I do think that it's important to point out that Laurie's position, as she said, is the position that we should all take in terms of regardless of our view on a particular issue.
00:58:45.580If the government can censor Laurie, it can censor any one of us.
00:58:50.180So you you're not even allowed, Laurie, to put to post on your website.
00:58:55.300You know, I'd rather not do the same sex marriages because I'm a Christian.
00:59:00.580It doesn't align with my worldview, my my my religious beliefs.
00:59:03.980Forget whether or not you would be forced to.
00:59:06.500You can't even state that as as your own feelings on your website.
00:59:12.440I cannot communicate my view on the topic of marriage on my own website.
00:59:19.320I mean, this seems rather extreme to me, Kristen, and the Tenth Circuit's ruling, which is a two to one ruling, seems out there even by, you know, looking at sort of more liberal jurists standards.
00:59:32.040Well, you're right in the sense that the Tenth Circuit's decision itself in terms of how far it went was much further than any other decision.
00:59:41.080But there have been a number of decisions in other states that have reached essentially the same result in terms of practical purposes.
00:59:47.200So we know about Jack Phillips case litigated in Colorado.
00:59:51.100But just last week, we were in the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in New York with a photographer who's actually facing criminal penalties for declining to do custom photographs for same sex weddings.
01:00:04.440And she's facing actual criminal fines and criminal penalties for that.
01:00:09.160And then, of course, I know you're familiar with the Washington florists who essentially had to retire.
01:00:13.860And there are a host of others who have been victims to this law, which is why we need to be able to stop activists and government officials from misusing public accommodations laws to essentially punish and ruin those who don't hold their viewpoints.
01:00:28.540Because this is what the court is saying, that that Lori's free speech rights have clashed with the anti-discrimination provisions of their of Colorado's civil rights laws that you may not discriminate.
01:00:41.580You can't offer lesser or no services to somebody because of their sexual orientation.
01:00:46.820That's what they claim this is, even though she is servicing LGBTQ people for any website they want, except for this one.
01:00:55.820But they claim that's that's close enough.
01:00:57.760You can't you know, that's the same as telling a black person no service, period.
01:01:05.600First of all, the decisions that Lori's making are based on what the message is that she's being requested to create, not who the person is that is requesting it.
01:01:14.180And even the United States Supreme Court has recognized the difference between interracial marriage and same sex marriage.
01:01:20.260It is said in the Loving versus Virginia case that, you know, interracial marriage laws were about systematic oppression and subjugation of an entire class of people, that it was about white supremacy.
01:01:31.220And in Obergefell itself, the court's decision on same sex marriage, the court said decent and honorable people hold the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman and that actually all of the Abrahamic faiths still have this belief.
01:01:44.560And so that it's not based on animus or anything else.
01:01:47.660It truly is a core conviction about how God created marriage.
01:01:52.220And in Lori's faith, for example, the marriage analogy is the analogy between Christ and the church.
01:01:58.820So it holds a very sacred place in many of these faiths.
01:02:03.440Lori, why, you know, you have people and I know this because I had Jack Phillips on my show and interviewed him before his case went up.
01:02:11.700I mentioned this the other day where there was a there was a producer at NBC who'd been there for about two minutes who who wanted me to use all of her questions in questioning Jack Phillips.
01:02:21.280I said, I don't. You're not a lawyer. You're a young producer. You've been here about two minutes.
01:02:26.440I'm not going to be using your questions. I'll be using my own questions since I practiced law for 10 years.
01:02:30.580And I and I covered the high court for three years. And this young twit, forgive me, had a freak out that I wasn't going to ask her questions.
01:02:36.380And I didn't ask her questions in my mood. We're just fine.
01:02:39.580OK, sorry. Just bringing it all together for the audience. It's been following my journey on the story.
01:02:44.160Well, I remember that. I remember that. You were there to know that interview.
01:02:47.940And you were very fair to us, but you were also tough. And I think that that produces people should hear both sides of these things and make their own decisions.
01:02:55.540Exactly. So and he did just fine. And that, as we pointed out, that wound up going his way seven to two.
01:03:01.980But in any event, so what is it? You know, people would say to you same way they say to Jack, I can't just do it.
01:03:07.500You know, like what? Just do it. You know, the law says you have to.
01:03:11.160Like, can't you just do it? And what do you say to them?
01:03:15.660My faith inspires every everything that I do. I can't separate my faith from my work.
01:03:23.180It inspires what I do. And so because of that, the artwork that I create, the designs that I create, the way that I work with my clients,
01:03:32.980all of that must be glorifying and honoring to God. So no, I cannot communicate a message that goes against my deeply held beliefs.
01:03:41.340Nobody should be put in a position of having to do to do so.
01:03:46.680Nobody should be in that position, whether your views are the same as mine or whether they're different.
01:03:51.900Nobody should be in a place of the government telling them they must communicate a message that violates their core beliefs.
01:03:58.600And what, if anything, has happened to your business as a result of this law and in the wake of this controversy?
01:04:06.960Well, this journey has been going on for six years, and it certainly has been a roller coaster.
01:04:14.880I have received quite a bit of just vile hatred my way, as I'm sure you, speaking with Jack, have heard through his story.
01:05:05.220And I think what's hardest for me is that those who oppose my stance.
01:05:11.660I've always been hopeful and treated people with love and kindness and respect.
01:05:16.840And I'm hopeful that we can get back to a point where we can disagree about topics like marriage, but to do so in a respectful way, because it's really awful.
01:05:40.140And I remember in that interview with Jack Phillips, he was teary when he was talking about what had been done to his employees and how much they'd lost.
01:05:49.480His business was basically destroyed because he refused to bake that cake for a gay wedding.
01:06:20.060Shortly after the court agreed to hear his first case, which was in 2016, he received a call on that same day from a transgender attorney who asked him to design a custom cake to celebrate the attorney's gender transition with blue on the outside and pink on the inside.
01:06:38.920And Jack declined to design that cake.
01:06:41.220In addition, that attorney called back and asked also for a cake celebrating Satan and having him smoking a marijuana, assuming that maybe that would trigger some sort of religious discrimination claim.
01:07:25.060Explain why, Kristen, explain why the 72 decision did not put an end to this.
01:07:30.540Because, as you recall, that term was Justice Kennedy's last term.
01:07:37.180Justice Kennedy wrote the majority decision and the court's decision focused on free exercise rather than free speech in that case.
01:07:44.240In fact, the court said that Colorado was so hostile in how it treated Jack during the process that it didn't even need to actually reach the free speech arguments.
01:07:53.560It didn't touch those because it said that kind of hostility is impermissible.
01:07:57.260It actually the Colorado Commission compared Jack's beliefs to those of slave owners and those who perpetrated the Holocaust in open court.
01:08:06.560And then shockingly, what we found out through the second case after the Supreme Court case was that that commission again doubled down on that hostility as well, even after the Supreme Court ruled in our favor.
01:08:19.120So, in a sense, we won on free exercise, we advanced free exercise jurisprudence, that, in other words, religious freedom, but we still need the court to address the free speech issues.
01:08:29.300Because, you know, the market can do what it wants to do.
01:08:32.020If people don't want to purchase products or purchase custom speech in other areas because they don't agree with Lori or Jack or others, that's up to them.
01:08:42.100But what we're talking about here is government power.
01:08:45.120It is the force of the state to silence, to coerce, to punish, and even to ruin people that don't agree with its ideology.
01:08:54.780And that should frighten all of us, no matter what we think about this particular issue.
01:08:59.120Well, because the high court did not accept this case as a free exercise challenge.
01:09:04.100They're not saying, let's decide this as religious rights and get into our religious rights jurisprudence.
01:09:09.760They're deciding this one as a free speech case.
01:09:15.200And do you, because the court's free exercise jurisprudence, you know, where do your religious rights end and somebody else's rights begin, is a mess.
01:09:34.300So, do you like where it stands right now and you're glad that they're not touching it?
01:09:39.440Or would you prefer that they reevaluate free exercise and free speech?
01:09:44.900Well, I do think that free exercise needs to be reevaluated, but I'm not at all disappointed they're looking at free speech in this case.
01:09:51.700Because I think that we win on free speech and for our purposes, it is an essential issue that needs to be resolved today.
01:09:58.740I mean, every other day on your podcast, you're addressing some sort of censorship or speech, whether it's through policy, through private power.
01:10:05.800It impacts every profession, the medical profession, the academic profession, those who are experiencing any professional licensing.
01:10:15.020We do more work for students on public campuses than any other conservative institution or law firm.
01:10:21.640And every day they're facing all kinds of new harassment and coercion from schools.
01:10:26.320So, we need a solid, strong, robust decision that says it's wrong for the government to punish people because they disagree with what the government says on a particular topic.
01:10:45.120Whether you're on a college campus or at a company that's forcing you to say certain things in your DEI training or what have you, compelled speech is all the rage right now.
01:10:56.100Can you imagine how you'd feel if your college made your kid say something, you know, Black Lives Matter or, you know, trans rights or human rights?
01:11:08.680If they made them say it, if they try to make you say it, we'll pick it up right there.
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01:11:43.780So, Kristen, we talk about this all the time, but the case that I'm thinking about is Jodi Shaw, who was at Smith College, and it's just a gal with her microphone.
01:11:58.980And she sits down at the mic and starts talking about how they're making me say these things I don't believe.
01:12:06.700They're making me participate in these classes which are spewing nonsense that I don't think is right, and I think it's really racist, and I don't want it.
01:12:16.080And what I'm basically saying to Smith College is, you may not racialize me, my colleagues, and my work setting.
01:12:33.840They were trying to make her say things about white people, about race, that she did not believe in.
01:12:41.140And it wasn't, in that case, a matter of her religion.
01:12:44.600It was just a matter of her morals and her character and what she believes is right and wrong.
01:12:49.160So in a case like that, you guys would take a case like that because that may not be a free exercise case, right?
01:12:55.440But that's a free speech case, a compelled speech case.
01:12:58.640Well, we need to understand that civil liberties travel together, right?
01:13:01.440So if you want to have religious freedom, you have to have free speech.
01:13:04.180Even if you want to advocate for a certain side of immigration laws or you want to advocate be pro-life or be pro-abortion, speech is fundamental to that, that we're able to exchange freely in the ideas that we have and to pursue truth.
01:13:19.720So all of our civil liberties are connected.
01:13:22.160And just as important, when you look across the world, you see that those countries that don't protect speech don't protect the other rights either,
01:13:30.280whether that's the freedom of the press or even how we protect our minorities, those who are vulnerable, as well as our economic freedom.
01:13:38.140So it really is a linchpin that's very important to the stabilization and really just a free nation.
01:13:44.840Now, it's one thing if the government does it in a public school.
01:14:05.680Well, there are some distinctions that can be made.
01:14:08.200So in terms of I'm not a big fan of the government imposing its own ideology when it comes to the strings that are attaching.
01:14:14.960And you're seeing the Biden administration do that left and right now.
01:14:18.140Like we just had a case where they tried to use strings with Title IX,
01:14:22.080where private schools were giving lunch money or lunches through federal funds to kids that needed food.
01:14:28.320And they were going to withhold those monies unless the school embraced the gender identity ideology that the Biden administration is perpetuating.
01:16:29.260You have to say it in a certain place.
01:16:30.600You have to have a permit before you do it.
01:16:32.120But now we're seeing them even get more aggressive where they're issuing like no contact orders without due process to students and saying you can't be anywhere near these students.
01:16:43.100If you're making them feel at all uncomfortable, even though you just simply articulated a conservative idea in the classroom.
01:16:50.900I mean, that is that is anti-American.
01:16:53.720But this so this concerns me, though, because free speech is in a different lane.
01:16:58.320It's not necessarily the same thing as the anti-discrimination laws.
01:17:00.940You need a you need a government actor.
01:17:03.060And if it's a purely private institute, they can get away with this.
01:17:08.140Well, they can't to some extent in the sense of they can't engage in, again, religious discrimination.
01:17:14.980So in Maggie de Jong's case, for example, you know, the university was essentially putting penalties against her because of her religious views.
01:17:24.920And most private universities have policies in place that prohibit this type of discrimination.
01:17:30.480There are very few private schools that actually don't take some sort of federal funds where these civil rights laws clearly apply that Americans with Disabilities Act applies.
01:17:39.300There are many laws that apply to private universities that prevent this kind of discrimination.
01:17:44.200And in addition to that, most of them have policies that are supposed to be embracing academic freedom and a free speech culture.
01:17:51.420The problem is that they don't do it on the ground.
01:17:53.820And that's why we have to keep litigating these cases on the speech, speech codes and speech zones side of things.
01:17:59.220There's really strong case law that protects students and faculty members.
01:18:04.220But as soon as the case is resolved and we win, the university usually tries to go back to its old policy or just discriminates in a different way.
01:18:12.960And that's why we have to stay vigilant about this.
01:18:15.440It's crazy. You really do have to stay vigilant about it.
01:18:17.540It reminds me of when Californians passed that initiative several years ago that they no longer wanted the universities to use race in admissions.
01:18:26.360And and they said, OK, that's the new law.
01:18:29.640And then the colleges started to do it anyway.
01:18:31.520They just found another way of doing it.
01:18:32.760It's like they they are run by people with an agenda and they will not let go of their agenda, even when ordered to do so by a court of law or the voters.
01:18:41.640So you really do have to keep an eye on them and make sure you're constantly on them.
01:18:46.420So, Laurie, can I ask you about you and your politics?
01:18:48.520Are you in an area that is heavily Christian that like, you know, do you have support there or is everybody like, why don't you just move to Texas or, you know, move to Oklahoma?
01:19:00.360I have actually heard that comment before, to which I say free speech is guaranteed to all of us, regardless of the of the state you live in.
01:19:12.240I have a lot of supports here locally, the state.
01:19:16.080I'm a native, so the state has certainly changed over my lifetime.
01:19:20.100But I receive quite a bit of support from people in the area, even support from those who don't agree with me and my views on the topic of marriage, which is eye opening because we do not have to agree on the topic of marriage to understand that what's at stake impacts all of us.
01:19:41.040So I'm certainly grateful for the support that I have had and the prayers.
01:19:46.960Now, it's a good sign for you that the Supreme Court took this because you lost at the lower level.
01:19:53.520So you you want to be in the position of having someone review that if they thought this 10th Circuit clearly did the right thing, they probably wouldn't have accepted the case.
01:20:01.460Doesn't guarantee a win, of course, but rather be in your position than the other side's.
01:20:06.500However, if it doesn't go your way, maybe Kristen, you know, falls down on the job.
01:20:13.020Not likely, but let's just say it doesn't go your way.
01:20:19.020Well, I'll be deeply saddened, of course, and I am concerned now, but I'll be even more concerned than my dream has been to step into creating for weddings.
01:20:29.280That's what I've wanted to do for six very long years now.
01:20:32.700And if the court does not protect speech for myself and for others, then I will remain uncensored.
01:21:23.300You know, like what's to stop Jack Phillips from baking a lame cake or, you know, like you, Laurie does the website, but it's like not so great.
01:21:33.480Like, this is what you're going to get because I I did it.
01:22:02.880In the recent story involving Judge Ho out of the Fifth Circuit, who gave recent remarks lately, who just essentially my favorite quote in what he said was simply that, you know, silence is contagious, but so is courage.
01:22:15.780And what's at stake in allowing censorship of free speech is self-government itself.
01:22:22.180And it is this concept that we would live by lies.
01:22:24.700We all have a role to play in this, whether that role is having the privilege of talking to you and sharing Laurie's story, or it's having the privilege of sitting in our kitchen table with our kids who are being fed, you know, a bunch of lies themselves and need their parents to help educate them in ways that maybe previous generations didn't have to do.
01:22:45.300Judge Ho, for the audience, just recently made public remarks in which he said he's not going to hire any law clerks from Yale Law School because that school has just gone around the bend when it comes to cancel culture and cracking down on free speech.
01:23:00.820And he's trying to teach them a lesson.
01:23:02.600I'm sure he would love to get some clerks in the Federalist Society at Yale Law School who think about the world more the way Kristen and I do when they look at the law.
01:23:09.640But he's trying to teach them a lesson, and he hopes other judges do as well, which is this should be a principle we can all agree on, that there are certain standards.
01:23:17.500There's certain constitutional standards that we live by and that are written down and that we must live by.
01:23:23.380Can I ask you, Kristen, what is the next area that you see popping up as the biggest, I don't know, sort of the future of this litigation?
01:23:32.200Because I've been watching California and its law on what doctors may and may not say when it comes to, quote, misinformation on the vaccine and COVID, which is, to me, insane.
01:23:44.740You're allowed to revise your old opinions as new information comes in.
01:23:48.660But more and more we've seen in COVID, the crackdown on the Internet, crackdown on the medical community with all the race essentialism and the trans stuff.
01:23:56.700We've seen crackdowns in schools on what you can and cannot say and the free flow of discussion.
01:24:13.000But, I mean, we've even seen one of our cases at the Supreme Court was a case called NIFLA, which involved whether religious pro-life centers could have to speak messages about abortion that violate their convictions.
01:24:23.540And we won that case as well, but that was a five to four win.
01:24:26.960And so now in the post-Roe world, we're seeing activists, attorney generals starting to go after pro-life clinics on their speech.
01:24:35.000We saw California pass a recent law on that.
01:24:39.000So I think that we have to be able to stand up for the right to hold beliefs about human sexuality, including that we're men and women and that we're different and that that's a good thing.
01:24:49.060We're complementary, but we definitely are equal because this gender identity ideology is really threatening to swallow up the rights of women, equal opportunities for our daughters, and just basic differences that make a civil society great and diverse.
01:25:05.860How can people support Lori and Alliance Defending Freedom?
01:25:09.100Well, all of our work is pro bono, and we would love the support.
01:25:13.500They can go to our website at ADFlegal.org to find out more.