The Megyn Kelly Show - Megyn on Trump Chat and Upcoming DeSantis Interview, and Ray Epps Questions, with Arthur Aidala, Mark Eiglarsh, and Kimberley Strassel

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00:00:30.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.040 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.860 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:00:46.680 We thought we'd kick it off by telling you how I spent my weekend

00:00:51.160 down in Palm Beach, Florida with Turning Point Action.

00:00:55.360 This is the Charlie Kirk group that involves thousands and thousands of

00:01:00.000 college students, probably, you know, more than that nationwide.

00:01:03.340 But at the event, we had some four or five thousand

00:01:05.560 of college students and supporters and others who were there to listen to

00:01:09.740 mainly President Trump, who appeared.

00:01:12.300 Tucker was also there.

00:01:13.540 It was really fun to see him.

00:01:14.880 And I was there among many, many others in politics and elsewhere, more affiliated with

00:01:22.800 the right, for sure.

00:01:23.960 And it was fascinating and it was wonderful.

00:01:26.660 One of my favorite things that I did while there was speak to a roundtable of college

00:01:30.240 students with Charlie.

00:01:31.760 And my God, what these kids are going through.

00:01:33.820 My God.

00:01:35.080 One of the things that really jumped out at me was the young women talking about how there

00:01:38.100 are no masculine men anymore on college campuses.

00:01:40.060 I mean, honestly, they were talking about how they're stuck with the man bun everywhere

00:01:45.500 they turn.

00:01:46.880 Oh, no.

00:01:47.980 How are we going to reproduce the next generation?

00:01:51.140 All these effeminized men who've been schooled by these left leaning liberal women on their

00:01:59.120 toxic masculinity who now think the answer is to burst out into tears at every turn.

00:02:03.700 My God, it's not.

00:02:04.940 Please don't.

00:02:05.400 No, the future of humanity requires you to be hunters and gatherers and brave warriors

00:02:11.980 and not to turn into women.

00:02:14.640 It was kind of scary.

00:02:17.000 But these are more conservative leaning college students who are talking about being conservative

00:02:21.180 on college campuses that are, of course, overwhelmingly liberal and how they understand very well that

00:02:28.580 they're going to be downgraded on certain papers and so on if they don't tow the party

00:02:32.820 line, meaning the leftist party line and the courage it takes to push back against that.

00:02:37.680 I also learned that Clemson is not that liberal.

00:02:42.100 So that was good to hear.

00:02:43.820 You know, Clemson, South Carolina is a great school.

00:02:46.420 But I thus far believed that it was pretty much Hillsdale or Liberty for those of us who

00:02:52.100 want our kids to go to non indoctrinating leftist schools.

00:02:55.380 Clemson.

00:02:56.080 All right.

00:02:56.400 Go Tigers.

00:02:56.880 In any event, then we moved on to the evening session and just before the evening session,

00:03:02.420 I got the chance to sit with my friend Tucker Carlson, who you guys know, we've been friends

00:03:07.820 for a long, long time, well before his primetime role at Fox.

00:03:12.000 And I used to have him on my show all the time when I was in the primetime.

00:03:15.220 And I knew back then he was a star who was being underutilized.

00:03:18.320 And as I've told you before, was the one who recommended to Lachlan Murdoch that they

00:03:22.240 elevate him to the primetime.

00:03:25.160 Obviously, he's made a go of it and he's become an international star.

00:03:29.780 And you spend two minutes with Tucker and you're totally reminded of why he's just completely

00:03:34.000 magnetic.

00:03:35.160 He's such a happy warrior.

00:03:36.580 You know, he's been through the ringer these past few months and just all smiles and easy

00:03:42.880 to be with, happy to see the bright side of virtually everything, including what's happened

00:03:47.600 to him.

00:03:48.600 And we had a great meeting with Tucker, his executive producer, Justin Wells and Abby and

00:03:55.160 I.

00:03:56.020 And I'm telling all I can tell you is, you know, to be a fly on that wall, your jaw would

00:04:00.080 have dropped at some of the things that we exchanged more on that as the days and weeks

00:04:05.740 and months go by.

00:04:06.980 There are just some really interesting things.

00:04:10.240 Fox News has not yet sued Tucker.

00:04:12.040 And all I'll tell you is they should not.

00:04:14.660 It would be a mistake, as I've said before, but I believe it even more strongly now than

00:04:20.340 ever.

00:04:21.220 Don't do it, Fox.

00:04:22.080 You're going to be really sorry.

00:04:23.520 It's not going to end well for you or anyone on your side.

00:04:26.920 If you go after him, just let him go.

00:04:29.220 You fired him.

00:04:30.220 He wants to give back the money.

00:04:31.600 Just wants to make a living doing the news.

00:04:33.880 Just let him.

00:04:35.020 Don't be dumb.

00:04:35.560 Um, and so in any event, more on that, as, uh, as I said, as time passes now, one of

00:04:41.460 the most interesting things I did was have a private audience with former president Donald

00:04:47.160 Trump.

00:04:47.960 When he came into the arena, uh, we met just one-on-one and, uh, you know, I mean, there

00:04:54.340 were like, his team was standing nearby, but he and I got a one-on-one together for the

00:04:59.300 first time in years.

00:05:00.020 And it was frankly great to see him, you know, all that nonsense between us is under

00:05:05.600 the bridge and he could not have been more magnanimous.

00:05:09.320 You know, it's just, the thing about Trump is he commands the room.

00:05:15.000 He walks in and it's not just because he's former president now, because I knew him before

00:05:18.500 that he, there's just something about him.

00:05:21.160 It's like an aura that sort of takes over the room.

00:05:24.600 There's only one person you can look at.

00:05:26.660 I remember when he was doing Celebrity Apprentice and Geraldo was on it and John Rich was on

00:05:31.960 it and John Rich, I think it was, invited me to a, an event for Celebrity Apprentice and

00:05:37.260 you went there and same thing.

00:05:38.700 Trump walks in like the whole room turns to Donald Trump.

00:05:41.440 Well, even more so now, uh, he could not have been nicer or more generous and, um, had some

00:05:48.120 interesting thoughts about the debates, whether he's going to attend.

00:05:52.260 And I wouldn't bet on it.

00:05:54.060 I would not bet on him attending at least that first Fox news debate.

00:05:57.320 If I had to put money on it, you know, it's Trump, so he could change his mind.

00:06:00.620 But, um, that was my feeling in having talked to him though.

00:06:03.960 He didn't commit one way or the other.

00:06:06.360 And, um, we had a great exchange.

00:06:08.280 I thought it was interesting, you know, as a, as a journalist, as a woman, as a human who

00:06:13.960 went through so much with Trump, you know, we've had our ups and downs.

00:06:17.740 It's fair to say to me, there was a lesson in that kind moment between the two of us.

00:06:24.520 And it was that even as a journalist, if you can take your own ego out of it, and I went

00:06:29.920 through a lot as Trump attacked me for those nine months, I've documented that in my book

00:06:33.560 and elsewhere, but if you can take your ego out of it, and if you can be quick to sort

00:06:37.820 of get past these confrontations and these negative experiences, you can open up such possibility

00:06:44.280 for yourself, you can open up a field of wellness, of positivity, of good relationships.

00:06:49.860 So take the fact that it's Donald Trump, former president and Megyn Kelly, you know, well-known

00:06:54.040 journalist out of it.

00:06:54.960 This could be true for you in your life.

00:06:57.120 You know, this could be true.

00:06:58.040 If you can just find a way to say, you know what, that was yesterday.

00:07:01.260 I'm here on today.

00:07:02.560 I'm looking at tomorrow.

00:07:04.500 I just think it's a testament to how people can change and people can rebuild relationships

00:07:09.120 and people can move forward in a positive way.

00:07:10.880 And I know I'm not the only one, because when Trump took to the stage and addressed

00:07:15.620 the roaring crowd, which was completely in his corner, he said the following, which

00:07:20.260 caught my attention.

00:07:21.620 Listen to Trump talking about yours truly.

00:07:25.440 It's not 12.

00:07:27.560 And Megyn Kelly, she was the one that gave me that terrible question where I said, only

00:07:31.980 Rosie O'Donnell.

00:07:33.060 Thank God I came up with that.

00:07:34.940 I would have been because she had plenty of other names going.

00:07:38.020 I didn't like that.

00:07:38.780 The place went crazy.

00:07:39.660 Nobody ever heard the other name.

00:07:41.000 So I consider that a very good answer.

00:07:42.680 But that was a hell of a question.

00:07:45.460 But she has been all and she's been great.

00:07:47.540 By the way, not to me.

00:07:48.760 She's been great for the country.

00:07:50.060 She wants our country to survive.

00:07:51.900 So it's not for me.

00:07:55.080 So it's amusing, as always.

00:07:57.240 I didn't actually have a list of other women, but his point is well taken.

00:08:01.480 He did do well with that question.

00:08:03.040 And the Rosie O'Donnell comment brought down the house when he made it.

00:08:06.980 But he's right that it's the country I care about.

00:08:11.420 And whether it's Trump or some other leader on the right, I've made pretty clear.

00:08:16.940 I don't see how you can vote for somebody on the other side who can't say what a woman is.

00:08:21.300 Right.

00:08:21.800 Who's who's trying to indoctrinate our children and backwards racial thinking.

00:08:26.500 Who wants children with body parts cut off before they hit age 18.

00:08:31.800 How how can you vote for that?

00:08:34.680 So it could be Donald Trump, could be Ron DeSantis, could be Tim Scott, could be Nikki Haye.

00:08:38.400 All these people offering a vision that is much more clear headed and positive for our country than what we're seeing right now on the left.

00:08:45.580 So it was great to see him.

00:08:47.340 He was extremely popular at this event, which is more in Trump's corner.

00:08:51.660 He won the poll, I think I was like 97 percent over any other candidate.

00:08:56.480 DeSantis declined to attend the event, which I think was a mistake.

00:08:59.840 No, it's not his crowd, but he would have had he would have gotten such points if he had just shown up in Palm Beach and said, hey, I'm Ron DeSantis.

00:09:06.780 I know you're more with Trump, but thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk to you and try to win you over.

00:09:11.400 You know, I'm grateful.

00:09:13.780 I'm grateful to Donald Trump for helping me get elected the first time.

00:09:17.300 I do think we have differing visions.

00:09:18.520 That's why I'm running that it wouldn't have taken that much for him to say that Vivek was there.

00:09:24.220 He he made, you know, there were others there.

00:09:27.460 So I think DeSantis missed an opportunity.

00:09:30.760 He did go to the Iowa summit, which Tucker actually was at the night before moderating.

00:09:38.220 I don't know if you watch any of those debates on the blaze.

00:09:40.200 They're on YouTube now.

00:09:40.860 They're very good.

00:09:41.500 But it's it's fun to watch Tucker sit across from these folks and sort of, you know, he's got a very clear vision of how he wants the country to be and how he wants the Republican Party to be and gave it right to these candidates in a respectful way and had a couple of them on their heels.

00:09:54.660 For sure, there were some tense exchanges to Santa sat with Tucker.

00:10:00.500 And I think he did the best in that interview that I've seen him do.

00:10:04.460 It was a little bit more relaxed.

00:10:06.320 You know, yeah, he used to see colloquialisms like every day and twice on Sunday, you know, that they're a little dated.

00:10:13.260 They make him sound a little stodgy.

00:10:15.400 He's only 44.

00:10:16.640 I'm older than DeSantis.

00:10:17.820 Why am I like thinking he sounds stodgy?

00:10:20.920 But I think it's just how he is.

00:10:22.240 He's a little nerdy.

00:10:23.920 But that's OK.

00:10:25.180 You know, it's OK to be a little nerdy when you're running for president of the United States.

00:10:29.060 But in any event, substantively, I thought he did very well in his exchange with Tucker.

00:10:33.700 And it just to me was an was a testament to how he needs to get back out there more.

00:10:37.740 He needs to put himself out there more.

00:10:39.920 He needs the practice and he needs people to get to know him better as opposed to whatever image they have.

00:10:46.040 So that happened as we get news that his campaign is now shedding staff, that they are underperforming expectations, at least so far.

00:10:58.520 So he's got a bunch of money in his super pack, tons of money in the super pack, less in his actual campaign.

00:11:04.020 And they've been spending a lot in the past several months on ads and other things.

00:11:09.140 And now they're getting rid of staff.

00:11:11.120 He needs a shakeup is the bottom line.

00:11:12.680 And one is underway.

00:11:15.200 Way, he suggested this weekend on Fox that he is going to be putting himself out there in a more robust way over the next six months or so.

00:11:24.100 I've been very transparent with all of you going back several months that I I've been asking him to sit with us for months and been getting the back of the hand.

00:11:33.360 And recently we reached out again.

00:11:36.720 And this time he accepted.

00:11:38.900 So I will be sitting with Governor Ron DeSantis next week.

00:11:42.620 I'll be traveling back down to Florida to interview him for the first time and to meet him for the first time.

00:11:48.880 I'm very much looking forward to it.

00:11:50.640 He knows it's not going to be an easy interview, but it's not going to be a jugular removal either.

00:11:55.800 Like always, when you come on this show, especially if you're a politician, it's going to be fair, balanced and based in fact.

00:12:01.920 So we're looking forward to doing that and bringing it to you.

00:12:05.440 And we're grateful that the campaign has accepted.

00:12:08.100 And I expect we'll be sitting with President Trump in the not too distant future as well.

00:12:13.720 For now, let's get to the news of the day.

00:12:17.140 Joining me now for Kelly's Court, two of our very favorite people, Mark Eiglarsh and Arthur Idala.

00:12:23.260 Mark is a criminal defense attorney.

00:12:24.740 Arthur is a trial attorney and managing partner at Idala, Fortuna and Caymans.

00:12:30.380 Guys, welcome back to the show.

00:12:32.060 It's great to see you.

00:12:32.840 My God, there's so much to go over.

00:12:34.660 There's there's so many great Kelly's Court cases.

00:12:37.080 All right.

00:12:37.320 And this.

00:12:38.460 All right.

00:12:39.300 Hold on.

00:12:39.800 Let me get my notes because.

00:12:41.860 I know we're supposed to start with Ray Epps, which is a hot political story and we can get to Ray Epps, but I'm sorry.

00:12:48.020 We have to start with the with the serial killer.

00:12:50.180 However, they've nabbed who they say is a prolific serial killer who was roaming amongst us, who is accused of killing as many as potentially 10, maybe more people.

00:13:04.640 I think he's accused explicitly of six or seven by the by the authorities right now.

00:13:09.260 And this guy, we've known that there was a serial killer loose in Long Island for quite some time, but we just didn't know who it was.

00:13:16.740 We found the bodies in 2011 dumped near Massapequa.

00:13:21.560 That's where Brian Kilmeade's from.

00:13:23.160 That's where Billy Baldwin's from.

00:13:25.580 It's this nice area of Long Island.

00:13:27.200 And these bodies of young sex workers who went missing, washed up or not washed up, but were found in burlap, burlap bags in 2011.

00:13:36.160 But Arthur, they couldn't figure out who did it until this past weekend.

00:13:43.000 Then when they announced the arrest of this guy, it's unbelievable.

00:13:48.740 I want to get his name.

00:13:50.840 Rex.

00:13:51.760 How do you pronounce the last name?

00:13:53.980 Huberman, something like that.

00:13:55.880 I know.

00:13:56.340 Hold on a second.

00:13:58.140 Huber?

00:13:58.640 I've only heard it a hundred times.

00:14:00.900 It's Huberman.

00:14:02.080 H-E-U-E-R-M-A-N-N.

00:14:05.640 Rex Huberman.

00:14:07.660 All right.

00:14:08.060 Now, Rex Huberman worked as a consultant for architects dealing with the city and managing like all the building codes and regulations.

00:14:17.560 And he was, as far as I can tell, like an intermediary who had a good, legit job.

00:14:24.320 Married.

00:14:24.780 He was on a second wife.

00:14:25.760 Married two children.

00:14:27.020 Married two children living a private life in Long Island.

00:14:31.040 And my team found this interview he gave in 2022 with the host of Bonjour.

00:14:39.440 I don't know.

00:14:41.020 It's some, I don't know, Bonjour Realty.

00:14:44.620 Some Realty YouTuber on the interview.

00:14:49.340 And the host spent half an hour with the guy.

00:14:52.380 I watched this whole thing.

00:14:53.540 I watched 20 minutes of this guy talking about stuff I have absolutely no interest in because I, it's a cute serial killer we now know.

00:15:00.400 And here he is talking in a more private moment at the end or a more sort of personal moment at the end of the interview about his favorite tool.

00:15:08.480 Watch this at six.

00:15:09.620 Watch this at six.

00:15:10.240 If you were a tool or an object to help you in your, to help you to bring your business to greater heights, what would it be?

00:15:25.860 I have one tool that's pretty much used in almost every job.

00:15:30.140 And it's actually a cabinet maker's hammer.

00:15:33.620 Oh, okay.

00:15:34.700 Cabinet maker hammer.

00:15:35.920 Okay.

00:15:36.160 It is persuasive enough when I need to persuade something.

00:15:42.740 Not someone.

00:15:43.940 Something.

00:15:47.300 Oh, my God.

00:15:49.200 Oh, my God, you guys.

00:15:51.320 So I'll start with you, Arthur, as the New Yorker.

00:15:53.820 They now say that they caught him in part thanks to DNA, in part thanks to tracking down his burner cell phone he was using to contact the sex workers who wound up murdered.

00:16:03.360 But how do you like the case against him, as you've seen it outlined so far?

00:16:09.340 Well, I communicated with the Suffolk County District Attorney Ray Tiernan last night, and he actually told me to send you his regards, Megan.

00:16:16.620 He's a former Brooklyn ADA, who I know.

00:16:20.480 And the prosecutor right before him, Tim Sini, you know, was also a well-known prosecutor.

00:16:29.320 But the word around the campfire is he really dragged his feet in terms of pursuing this.

00:16:37.560 And Tiernan came in, and he's a Republican, and he did just the opposite.

00:16:42.400 He put together this whole task force to figure this out.

00:16:45.700 And it was really a task force of not only just the regular Suffolk County detectives, but also the Suffolk County sheriffs.

00:16:52.920 They brought the FBI back in, and they really made this a priority.

00:16:57.140 But one of the things the district attorney of Suffolk County did say was that technology has advanced so much in the 13 years since the first homicide took place.

00:17:09.860 It really was helpful.

00:17:12.120 And you talk about close.

00:17:13.200 His office, the defendant's office, is like five blocks away from my law office in midtown Manhattan.

00:17:19.420 And that's where he was arrested from.

00:17:22.080 It's also where they recovered the pizza box that had his DNA, apparently, on the pizza that they tied all of that in to put the nail in the coffin.

00:17:32.900 They actually still wanted to continue to follow him.

00:17:36.440 But he keeps reaching out to sex workers, as they call them.

00:17:39.820 I guess you don't call them prostitutes anymore.

00:17:41.600 I know.

00:17:41.840 I noticed the same thing.

00:17:43.200 It makes it sound like this is a legitimate job that you could choose.

00:17:47.480 You could be like a transportation worker or a sex worker.

00:17:50.820 They're talking about hookers, ladies of the evening.

00:17:53.920 Thank you.

00:17:54.640 So they wanted to continue to follow him, but they were too afraid that if he went with one of these sex workers, he was going to kill somebody else.

00:18:03.880 So they actually ended the investigation a little earlier than they wanted to.

00:18:08.000 They wanted to build on their evidence, but they feel comfortable now that they will continue to build on the evidence.

00:18:14.360 And obviously, at this point, they feel comfortable that they're going to secure a conviction based on his wife's hair being at the location.

00:18:22.820 And they found out that his wife was out of town at the time in question when one of these women were killed.

00:18:28.720 So they feel like they I mean, it's all circumstantial evidence.

00:18:32.220 There's no like eyewitness that says it was him.

00:18:35.260 There's one witness that says an ogre like guy was seen with one of the deceased.

00:18:40.160 And if you look at this six foot six guy who's clearly overweight, ogre would be an appropriate, you know, he was like Shrek.

00:18:49.240 Good for good for that.

00:18:50.440 D.A. Good for them for taking another hard look at it as the advancements in DNA and other evidential assessment tools is is obvious to us all.

00:18:59.800 But they're of no use if you don't actually use them on on on these crimes.

00:19:04.560 And what better crime to investigate than serial killings, Mark?

00:19:09.180 I'll give you one other.

00:19:10.840 We'll talk more about this evidence, but I'll give you one other soundbite of the guy at the end of his interview with the with a French guy where they they take like a selfie together.

00:19:19.740 I get this. The bonjour realty guy.

00:19:23.280 Well, I would love to talk to this guy who now knows he spent an hour with a serial killer accused.

00:19:29.160 He does like selfies, I guess, at the end.

00:19:31.220 And just look at him.

00:19:32.400 Watch this.

00:19:32.840 But in the meantime, it's selfie time.

00:19:36.940 Selfie time.

00:19:40.200 You're fast.

00:19:42.000 They're putting on sunglasses.

00:19:43.200 One, two, three.

00:19:45.860 Can you smile?

00:19:48.000 That is.

00:19:51.460 Oh, my God.

00:19:52.740 Megan.

00:19:53.440 Very cringy, Megan.

00:19:55.020 Very cringy.

00:19:56.660 It's so creepy.

00:19:58.260 Guilty.

00:19:58.860 Yeah, that would be very creepy.

00:20:00.640 So to answer your question, I approach this case the same way I do other high profile cases like Kohlberger or the BTK killer.

00:20:10.120 You know, you take what they're alleging and you say, if everything is true.

00:20:14.980 And that's a big if sometimes, you know, the DNA isn't supported by the way that they gathered it.

00:20:20.980 It was contaminated.

00:20:21.920 But rarely does that happen.

00:20:23.380 And so if what they're saying is true, it paints a serious picture of somebody who did some major damage.

00:20:32.380 And look, you know, anyone could do searches.

00:20:35.580 Right.

00:20:36.600 Somebody's concerned.

00:20:37.620 They live in the area.

00:20:38.760 OK.

00:20:39.060 OK, just doing searches about the case isn't enough.

00:20:41.740 So I go, OK, next.

00:20:43.440 And, you know, because they found his computer searches, which are incriminating from the sound of them.

00:20:47.680 Keep going.

00:20:48.140 Oh, they're hard.

00:20:49.540 Sure.

00:20:49.860 We'll get into it.

00:20:50.380 Go ahead.

00:20:50.900 But, you know, you could probably, you know, from the defense lawyer perspective, like, well, I might be able to explain that away.

00:20:55.740 Then you keep adding in different things.

00:20:58.040 And, you know, at some point, you know, you'll lose the perspective of being able to argue that this could be something else.

00:21:04.860 In other words, the odor of an alcoholic beverage shouldn't convict you of DUI.

00:21:08.760 But you start adding in the slurred speech and the flushed face and the bloodshot eyes and the horrible driving and you can't stand up.

00:21:15.440 You know, each piece forms the basis of a complete picture.

00:21:19.100 And I think that the picture here, assuming it's true because we don't know anything and there was a lot of political pressure to solve this case.

00:21:25.320 But assuming all this is true, this is a really tough case.

00:21:28.340 As great of a lawyer Arthur is, I don't know whether you need him or a magician to make all that stuff disappear.

00:21:35.540 Those searches are horrible.

00:21:36.080 So here's some of the searches that they found on his computer.

00:21:41.320 Why could law enforcement not trace the calls made by the Long Island serial killer?

00:21:47.280 I'm sorry.

00:21:48.000 I'm just laughing because it's just gallows humor.

00:21:49.960 But this is this is so dead on.

00:21:52.020 Why hasn't the Long Island serial killer been caught?

00:21:55.960 But hold on a second.

00:21:57.120 Let me give it a hard.

00:21:58.380 Oh, oh, yeah.

00:21:59.340 Oh, I mean, of course, he's into that as well.

00:22:01.740 Long Island serial killer phone call.

00:22:03.280 He Googled Long Island serial killer update, serial killer update 2022 FBI active serial killers, serial killers by state 2023 map of all known serial killers, unsolved serial killer cases.

00:22:13.540 America's five top notorious old cases.

00:22:16.020 Hold on.

00:22:16.620 Going down.

00:22:16.960 Then he searched the names of some of the victims.

00:22:19.180 Megan, Megan Waterman, Melissa Bartholomey, Maureen Brainerd Barnes.

00:22:22.900 And then a couple of other related searches.

00:22:26.760 Cops launch Gilgo Beach Homicide Investigation Task Force mapping the Long Island murder victims inside the Long Island serial killer in Gilgo Beach.

00:22:33.720 The Gilgo Beach killer.

00:22:35.080 That was the name of the beach in Long Island in Long Island.

00:22:37.500 Serial killer investigation.

00:22:38.680 New phone technology may be key to break in case.

00:22:41.260 So he's obviously very, very interested in his case.

00:22:46.220 And then if you look at like the determining or the disturbing things that Arthur was referencing, I'm not going to get into it, but child pornography involving very young girls searches like nude slave girls, preteen girls and so on.

00:23:01.820 And all of the women killed, according to 48 hours, which I listened to.

00:23:06.380 There's a podcast out right now, which I recommend to everyone.

00:23:11.100 Seem to generally have the same characteristics.

00:23:13.620 These young women.

00:23:14.540 And, you know, they were obviously sex workers or prostitutes.

00:23:18.480 That's not to in any way diminish what happened to them, but it's just to get honest about what that term means.

00:23:24.000 They were young.

00:23:25.360 They tended to be brunette.

00:23:27.400 They tended to be small.

00:23:29.060 He liked petite women, like under five feet.

00:23:32.740 Many of them had hazel eyes.

00:23:35.080 And so there was a profile.

00:23:36.280 Think of this guy, six foot six with a four foot 11 young woman.

00:23:41.700 Are they're desperate enough to try to make money in that particular way?

00:23:45.140 Who goes on, you know, some hotel call and never resurfaces and winds up strangled.

00:23:51.840 That's how most of these women were killed in a burlap bag.

00:23:55.060 But he wasn't careful because you mentioned that hair.

00:23:59.560 It found the wife's DNA on the burlap bags.

00:24:03.140 And as you point out, the wife was nowhere near the scenes and they found his hair at the bottom of one of those burlap bags.

00:24:11.120 But they didn't have a match.

00:24:12.460 He wasn't in the system.

00:24:13.440 So, Arthur, how did they get this guy's name?

00:24:17.040 They have the hair.

00:24:18.520 They don't know whose it is.

00:24:20.000 So how do they zero in on this guy, Rex?

00:24:22.940 Well, the word they use is triangulation.

00:24:25.860 But that was one of the words I use.

00:24:27.780 I watched that whole long press conference by the by the prosecutor.

00:24:31.100 Apparently, and then if we really want to lift up the skirt here, the D.A.'s public relations agent was at my house here on Saturday.

00:24:41.800 So he was telling me they've had his name for a long time, a very long time.

00:24:46.980 I think even before this prosecutor came into office.

00:24:49.920 But they just haven't had the links.

00:24:51.780 A lot of it had to do with the burner phones calling the prostitution, the escort services off of Craigslist, and they were able to get a judge to give them search warrants.

00:25:10.440 But I think that the pizza and getting the the the DNA off of the pizza was what really gave them the impetus to say, OK, we have enough.

00:25:22.460 We were they were I can't emphasize enough.

00:25:24.820 They really did not want to end the investigation.

00:25:26.820 But he was so prolific in his use of prostitutes that they were afraid one was going to.

00:25:34.080 And I think the term was eventually the scales of justice balance in the the degree of public safety over securing a conviction.

00:25:44.080 And then they got enough.

00:25:46.100 They don't I'm totally OK with them making the arrest based upon what they have right now.

00:25:50.340 They even got the DNA from family members and then that linked everything up.

00:25:54.620 I don't think that you need to wait.

00:25:56.060 And also, I don't think that he expected an arrest after all these years.

00:25:59.660 So, you know, in the House, they gathered even additional evidence that they didn't expect.

00:26:05.720 Right.

00:26:06.160 That further corroborate their strong case again.

00:26:09.160 What about his guns?

00:26:10.240 We haven't even mentioned his guns.

00:26:12.700 What about his guns?

00:26:14.220 He's got 92.

00:26:16.160 What?

00:26:16.620 I hadn't heard that.

00:26:17.940 He's got 90.

00:26:18.680 Yeah, they're all they're all legal.

00:26:20.540 Well, but he didn't use guns.

00:26:23.200 Objection.

00:26:24.280 He didn't use a gun in the crime.

00:26:26.080 How is that even relevant?

00:26:27.520 OK, Megyn Kelly.

00:26:29.520 Do you know anyone who lives in Massapequa Park who's got 92 guns?

00:26:35.760 I'm going to text kill me right now.

00:26:39.580 I mean, but no, but he was strangling these women.

00:26:42.100 I mean, who knows what he was expecting?

00:26:43.780 I know, but 92 guns.

00:26:45.520 I mean, it shows you someone's got a screw loose.

00:26:48.160 Well, no, now you're going to get all the Second Amendment people.

00:26:50.440 Dana Lash is sending you an email right now.

00:26:52.500 92?

00:26:53.860 Well, yeah, I mean, they love their guns.

00:26:55.600 You know, I mean, some people are gun enthusiasts and it doesn't make them serial killers.

00:26:58.880 But this guy actually appears to have been.

00:27:01.280 So say the cops.

00:27:03.420 Let's let's talk about the threat to other women because he's out there.

00:27:08.980 He's meeting up with the prostitutes, but he's also getting creepy with the regular women in his life.

00:27:13.840 I mean, think of the poor wife who's married to him and has no idea.

00:27:16.840 Apparently she's from Iceland.

00:27:17.780 The second wife.

00:27:19.780 But she's been living in Massapequa for years and years.

00:27:22.360 She apparently has no idea.

00:27:23.420 They describe her as a private person who kept her herself.

00:27:25.780 The neighbors did.

00:27:27.120 And then he's got an adult daughter who I think is 20 something who was working at Macy's up until recently.

00:27:32.200 And then she said she was working for him at his little office.

00:27:35.600 That, again, is like sort of a liaison between architects trying to navigate the New York City building laws and those those lawmakers.

00:27:43.320 And there was one woman who came forward who said she was in this like professional support group with him for these architect types.

00:27:54.100 Her name was Dominique Vidal.

00:27:55.940 And she came forward to talk about her experience with this guy at this networking event.

00:28:03.620 This is Sot9.

00:28:04.300 He asked me, do I know about the Gilgo Beach murders?

00:28:11.400 And of course I do.

00:28:13.600 I'm pretty sure there's a multi-part episode on Crime Junkie.

00:28:18.480 And I'm like, yeah, of course I know.

00:28:21.240 And he goes on to tell me, yeah, that's a serial killer that was never caught in my hometown, my neighborhood where I live.

00:28:29.540 And tells me he like, the guy killed 10 people and he might still be out there.

00:28:36.920 And I like make a joke and I'm like, yeah, you never know who you're talking to.

00:28:42.960 Anybody could be a serial killer.

00:28:44.240 I could be a serial killer.

00:28:45.880 And he laughed at that.

00:28:48.280 And I just cannot stop running that conversation over and over in my head.

00:28:54.220 And I'm really disturbed.

00:28:55.280 Oh, my God, I am, too.

00:28:58.460 I mean, she I don't can't tell how tall she is, but, you know, she kind of looks the part not of a sex worker, but, you know, that she looks petite.

00:29:06.400 She looks like she's got the darker eyes.

00:29:09.700 Here is the voicemail.

00:29:11.200 She says he left her in February 2023, just a few months ago, to this young woman, Dominique Vidal.

00:29:19.960 Listen.

00:29:20.120 Hey, this is Rex from the BNI group.

00:29:26.320 I actually heard you are no longer part of the group.

00:29:29.080 I still wanted to talk to you.

00:29:30.220 I had a question for you.

00:29:33.540 I also wanted to touch base.

00:29:35.760 So if you get an opportunity, you can always try me at the office.

00:29:40.540 Or feel free to use my cell.

00:29:42.820 My.

00:29:45.740 Hope you're doing good.

00:29:46.840 Hope to talk to you soon.

00:29:47.860 So she blacked out the personal number.

00:29:51.660 Touch base.

00:29:51.840 Go ahead, Mark.

00:29:53.060 Code for strangulation.

00:29:54.900 I mean, but you know what's disturbing?

00:29:58.920 I mean, I can't get past this.

00:30:00.240 Like I've talked about this on our crime shows many times.

00:30:02.600 This guy, I realized somebody described him as looking like an ogre.

00:30:05.220 Yes.

00:30:05.520 And some of the reports now are like he was creepy.

00:30:07.820 Like the neighbors are saying he was creepy.

00:30:09.640 But you hear that voicemail.

00:30:11.620 Right.

00:30:12.080 Like the chipper.

00:30:13.520 It's chipper.

00:30:14.560 You know, his interview with the French guy.

00:30:15.880 Like this is this is me smiling.

00:30:18.200 He here's my favorite tool.

00:30:19.440 The hammer.

00:30:20.180 Ha ha ha.

00:30:21.440 You're like, it does make you wonder about the criminals among us.

00:30:26.480 You know, like they say one in four people is a sociopath.

00:30:29.920 I mean, this guy was a Massapequa.

00:30:33.540 It's like a normal American town.

00:30:34.800 I know.

00:30:35.180 I know it's it.

00:30:36.420 This doesn't make sense.

00:30:37.120 That's what I'm saying.

00:30:37.600 They come in all shapes and forms.

00:30:39.680 One in four people.

00:30:41.160 One in four people is a sociopath.

00:30:43.860 They say that.

00:30:44.880 Yes.

00:30:46.400 I don't know if I'm going to say that.

00:30:49.040 I don't know.

00:30:50.000 You don't know.

00:30:50.440 If you don't know the one, it's you.

00:30:52.960 If you can.

00:30:55.440 Megan makes a point, Arthur.

00:30:57.300 You don't you don't know anybody these days.

00:30:59.280 Everybody just shows you what they want you to see.

00:31:02.060 And anyone has, you know, dark thoughts.

00:31:05.220 Anyone could possibly be.

00:31:06.920 I choose happiness.

00:31:08.140 OK, that's a strong.

00:31:09.940 That's my book.

00:31:12.600 I don't know, guys.

00:31:13.580 I think you're right.

00:31:14.940 They've got this guy.

00:31:15.720 It looks like dead to rights.

00:31:16.660 He was in tears, apparently, with his lawyer saying, I didn't do this.

00:31:20.400 I didn't do this.

00:31:21.920 The DNA apparently says something else.

00:31:24.520 We're going to learn a lot more, as Mark points out, once we actually find out what they found

00:31:27.640 in his house, it's going to be a dark, dark case.

00:31:32.480 But thank God.

00:31:33.620 Thank God for the great police work that was done ultimately on this case.

00:31:37.460 All right.

00:31:37.660 Stand by, because we are going to get into the Ray Epps defamation case against Fox News

00:31:43.280 and much, much more when we come back.

00:31:46.840 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:31:49.680 Someone is trying to frame us.

00:31:52.140 Until our names are cleared.

00:31:54.540 We're fugitives from interval.

00:31:55.820 Like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

00:31:59.780 Espionage.

00:32:00.400 You still as good a shot as you used to be?

00:32:03.500 Better.

00:32:04.240 Is there love language?

00:32:05.700 We like to walk that fine line between techno-thriller and romantic comedy.

00:32:11.000 We make up our own rules.

00:32:12.780 NCIS Tony and Ziva.

00:32:14.520 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:32:16.240 All right.

00:32:20.620 So Ray Epps, which is a name our audience may know well.

00:32:25.260 The reason is he was one of the January 6th protesters who many believed might have been

00:32:31.900 an undercover Fed because despite the fact that he was on camera and on audio tape and

00:32:38.720 you could hear him over and over like calling for people to go into the Capitol.

00:32:43.120 In fact, we'll play it.

00:32:43.880 This is how people first came to know and see Ray Epps.

00:32:46.820 Despite this, watch Soundbite One.

00:32:50.340 Tomorrow, we need to go into the Capitol.

00:32:54.100 Into the Capitol.

00:32:59.840 Peaceful.

00:33:00.660 Fed, Fed, Fed, Fed, Fed, Fed.

00:33:05.300 People are saying right then they think he's a Fed because he's saying we're going in.

00:33:09.260 And the other people are saying, no, we don't need to do that.

00:33:11.340 But anyway, despite all that, he was not arrested and everybody's been arrested.

00:33:16.700 If they could identify you as one of the rioters on Jan 6th, you were arrested and you were

00:33:21.420 charged and you may have already been tried, but not Ray Epps, despite very clear evidence

00:33:25.980 that he participated in the whole thing.

00:33:28.880 Well, Tucker Carlson on Fox and he's it wasn't just Tucker.

00:33:32.980 Many people speculated about whether he was some in participating that day in some sort of

00:33:38.540 undercover capacity for the feds trying to instigate criminality in the same way we saw

00:33:44.740 in the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping case in Michigan, where the feds were orchestrating

00:33:48.620 that.

00:33:50.840 Now the guy has sued, not Tucker Carlson.

00:33:55.180 Very interesting.

00:33:56.720 Just Fox News, which just turfed Tucker Carlson.

00:34:00.820 Didn't technically fire Tucker yet, but pulled him from his show.

00:34:04.280 And the only reason they haven't fired him is because they want to keep him on the payroll

00:34:06.620 and keep him silent, which is failing.

00:34:08.680 But in any event, what do you make of the fact, Mark, that he's now filed this lawsuit and

00:34:13.420 that it's just against Fox?

00:34:15.800 I'm surprised.

00:34:17.080 Claiming he was defamed.

00:34:18.880 Yeah.

00:34:19.140 Typically, you include everybody and then let them fight it out amongst themselves as to

00:34:23.560 how much each one owes.

00:34:25.220 Obviously, he's going after Fox News because they have the deeper pockets.

00:34:29.800 I don't know.

00:34:30.400 I don't understand that.

00:34:31.700 I don't understand why.

00:34:32.760 And I think it undermines the credibility of the plaintiff's lawyer that he doesn't include

00:34:37.280 the very person who he claims spewed untruths about his client.

00:34:43.400 The credibility of his lawyer doesn't work hard to undermine that guy's credibility, Arthur.

00:34:49.360 You don't have to try very hard because the guy he hired is named Michael Teeter, T-E-T-E-R.

00:34:55.500 And this lawyer is a close associate and employee, according to Revolver News, of David Brock.

00:35:05.420 David Brock is a disgusting political operative who ran Media Matters, which is a dishonest,

00:35:13.780 gross group whose only mission in life is to tear down conservative commentators and

00:35:18.420 conservative media.

00:35:19.220 He works for an organization called Facts First USA, a nakedly partisan, quoting from

00:35:24.840 Revolver here, nakedly partisan organization targeting the agenda of the so-called MAGA

00:35:29.740 majority in Congress.

00:35:31.920 And the president of Facts First USA is David Brock.

00:35:37.900 It's disgusting.

00:35:39.560 The group is disgusting.

00:35:40.760 And the fact that Ray Epps hired this lawyer tells me he's probably disgusting, too.

00:35:46.500 Well, I wonder if Ray Epps hired this lawyer or this lawyer broke ethical rules and reached

00:35:52.640 out to Ray Epps and said, let me represent you and let's go after Fox.

00:35:57.500 I mean, Mark is 100 percent correct.

00:35:59.260 If you slip and fall somewhere and you slip on some soda, like, you know, you sue Madison

00:36:04.680 Square Garden, you sue the maintenance company for Madison Square Garden, you sue the Coca-Cola

00:36:08.640 company for having slippery soda.

00:36:10.860 So here, I mean, look, they went after the low hanging fruit.

00:36:14.240 They just saw that Fox was willing to write out a check for almost eight hundred million

00:36:18.480 dollars.

00:36:19.780 They filed the court.

00:36:21.180 They filed the case in the same exact venue where Fox wrote out the check for, what was

00:36:27.540 it, 787.

00:36:28.740 Of course, Fox has now moved that or asked for that case to be moved from the state court

00:36:33.960 to the federal court.

00:36:36.280 And as you said, you're correct.

00:36:38.100 Everyone else has got arrested.

00:36:39.520 He hasn't got arrested.

00:36:40.740 But they did interview him.

00:36:42.340 They did take him off the wanted list.

00:36:45.000 But now, supposedly, they're saying they are going to press charges against him.

00:36:49.240 And that raises even more eyebrows because in both Mark and mine experience, it's very

00:36:53.900 rare that the feds give you a nice little invitation for your arrest.

00:36:58.640 Typically, they just come and show up with their.

00:37:00.940 I mean, look what they did to Mr.

00:37:04.440 Not Stoliver.

00:37:07.180 Who's Trump's advisor?

00:37:08.800 Roger Stone.

00:37:09.800 Roger Stone.

00:37:10.660 I mean, look how they went after that guy, right?

00:37:12.860 With helicopters and SWAT teams and all of that.

00:37:15.600 I mean, this is a guy screaming, let's go into the Capitol.

00:37:17.900 Why wouldn't they grab him that way?

00:37:19.380 So there are a lot of questions around here.

00:37:22.300 Apparently, he and his wife sold a business.

00:37:25.900 They're living in a trailer, literally a trailer in Utah somewhere because they've had death

00:37:33.100 threats.

00:37:33.560 So it's interesting that what this lawsuit is going to do is, I mean, if it goes the course

00:37:40.460 with depositions, et cetera, et cetera, it's going to definitely shake out some witnesses

00:37:45.940 who have a lot of a lot of things to answer for.

00:37:48.960 Like, why wasn't he arrested?

00:37:50.700 How come he's people much less involved were arrested and he wasn't?

00:37:55.760 What's that all about?

00:37:57.140 Did Tucker Carlson and other people have the right?

00:38:00.680 Did they have a reasonable evidence, facts, to be able to say the things that they said?

00:38:06.980 You know, truth is an absolute defense to defamation.

00:38:09.800 So if it turns out that the facts show that maybe he was working for someone, well, then

00:38:14.900 there's nothing that he could lean on to win the defamation suit.

00:38:20.820 I don't think the facts have to show that he actually worked for anyone in the government.

00:38:27.240 The question is whether there was enough to just simply get, and again, I don't know what

00:38:32.060 was said.

00:38:32.520 I need to see exactly what Tucker said.

00:38:34.640 But if Tucker's giving his opinion that there's enough there that it seems and he's raising

00:38:40.040 that issue, I don't think that he has to have the absolute truth on his side that it turned

00:38:45.440 out he was some type of federal agent.

00:38:47.840 Just based upon all these facts, you know, you can raise the issue with wide latitude from

00:38:53.560 the, you know, the First Amendment.

00:38:55.600 You can raise that issue.

00:38:57.100 What I don't know, but what I don't know, though, is what specifically was said.

00:39:03.740 Assuming he's not an agent.

00:39:05.600 I'll tell you this.

00:39:06.140 I haven't looked at all of Tucker's coverage of Ray Epps.

00:39:08.660 But, you know, they're alleging that he suggested that he might be a federal agent or a federal

00:39:14.460 source.

00:39:15.540 Tucker is smart enough not to say Ray Epps is a federal agent.

00:39:19.180 Ray Epps is where he's smart enough to know he wouldn't know that and he wouldn't be able

00:39:23.780 to say that that explicitly on the air.

00:39:25.760 But I'll tell you what's not in Ray Epps' complaint.

00:39:28.900 Statements like this from Tucker Carlson, who made clear repeatedly that he didn't actually

00:39:34.560 know one way or the other what the real status of Ray Epps was, that the whole discussion

00:39:39.620 was a was speculation.

00:39:42.360 Here's Tucker in October of twenty twenty one.

00:39:45.340 So to.

00:39:47.080 Now, just to be totally clear, we don't know whether this Epps guy was working with the

00:39:49.920 federal government.

00:39:50.400 We don't think about him.

00:39:51.200 Haven't talked to him.

00:39:52.520 We can only show you video from that day.

00:39:54.260 But we do know it doesn't seem like he's been punished for this.

00:39:58.760 If you're looking for the people who organized that day, maybe you should talk to him.

00:40:01.580 Has he been indicted?

00:40:02.180 Not that we know of.

00:40:03.080 Maybe he has been.

00:40:03.620 We don't know it.

00:40:04.100 But we haven't seen any evidence that he has been.

00:40:07.840 So, Mark, does that does that potentially save Tucker?

00:40:11.120 Because maybe in another segment, he said the evidence looks very strong that he's a federal

00:40:15.440 agent of some sort or federal source of some sort.

00:40:17.920 But he also made clear he didn't know.

00:40:20.020 I would need to see everything, but I would say in that what he's doing there, I believe

00:40:27.200 just that that's constitutionally protected.

00:40:29.680 That's up to that's right up to the line.

00:40:31.400 But he doesn't go over it.

00:40:32.960 I think that that is could be damaging.

00:40:36.600 But the First Amendment allows people to speculate as long as it's based upon fact.

00:40:45.640 And, you know, he's there.

00:40:47.800 He's right up on the line with that.

00:40:49.200 He didn't step over, but he's right there.

00:40:51.380 And I understand why this gentleman is upset about it.

00:40:54.620 But again, that's that's what makes this country great.

00:40:57.180 We have the First Amendment.

00:40:58.700 I'd like to say anything else.

00:41:00.900 I agree.

00:41:01.720 But, Mark, I don't even think he went right up to the line.

00:41:04.340 I mean, he made it clear.

00:41:05.200 He said, we don't know if he is one.

00:41:08.020 We have not spoken to him.

00:41:09.840 He has as far as we know, he has not.

00:41:11.680 I think he's covered himself three ways from Sunday.

00:41:14.120 We don't know that Arthur is a pedophile.

00:41:17.280 We don't know that.

00:41:17.880 I can't say it.

00:41:19.020 I'm not going to say it.

00:41:20.420 But, you know, he's awfully nice to kids.

00:41:22.820 I'm just saying.

00:41:23.360 You can't say pedophile is the same thing as federal agent.

00:41:27.300 There's a real question about whether that's defamatory at all.

00:41:30.200 All right, Mark, that's the example you go with for me?

00:41:32.620 Hold on.

00:41:32.780 Thank you, Mark.

00:41:33.440 Yes, because I knew it would get a reaction out of both you and Megan.

00:41:36.620 Obviously, there's a difference.

00:41:38.360 But to this guy who's significantly harmed by the suggestion that he's a law enforcement officer,

00:41:44.360 again, it's not the same as pedophile, but he does suffer harm as a result.

00:41:48.120 The question is whether it's protected or not.

00:41:51.400 And I don't think he's going to be able to prove he suffered harm.

00:41:54.480 This guy was at Jan 6th.

00:41:56.000 His his his story is that he was an instigator, that he was there not working on behalf of the feds,

00:42:02.260 that it was a legitimately held belief that, you know, they could go in there and storm the Capitol.

00:42:06.100 And he's on camera saying all of that and doing all of that.

00:42:09.840 If he had backlash in his personal life, he's going to have to prove that whatever it was,

00:42:14.640 was as a result of Tucker and Fox suggesting he did all that as a federal agent or a federal source

00:42:20.340 versus because he was a derelict versus backlash because he did the wrong thing.

00:42:25.340 Correct.

00:42:26.100 That's going to be difficult.

00:42:27.000 This guy had no problems putting himself on camera.

00:42:29.620 And my guess is he probably spewed that in many other places.

00:42:32.860 And so, yeah, it's very hard to identify that it was Tucker's fault or Fox News's fault

00:42:38.340 as opposed to him putting himself out there and encouraging people to go storm the Capitol.

00:42:43.480 But there might be a timely timeline, Megan.

00:42:46.360 In other words, if if days after the day after Tucker said something or someone on Fox said something,

00:42:52.100 you have phone records that show that's when the death threats were coming in

00:42:55.360 or someone when they had like a wedding store, a wedding planning store or something like that.

00:42:59.260 And there's there's a direct correlation in the timing of it all.

00:43:02.860 That from the media coverage and then what took took place in at the store or the loss of income at the store

00:43:09.280 or the death threats, you know, that that may be a lot easier to prove.

00:43:13.560 The damages may be easier to prove than the actual libel.

00:43:17.640 If Tucker, you know, the clip you just showed marks correct.

00:43:21.460 It's hard for either of us to opine on this without hearing or any of us without hearing every single clip.

00:43:27.300 Yeah. But the clip that you just showed, Tucker, in my opinion, covered his butt up 100 percent.

00:43:32.620 I don't even think he went up to the line.

00:43:34.100 I think he stayed way away from the line.

00:43:36.360 But let me let me let me say this to you, because we're talking about how, you know,

00:43:42.000 normally you sue everybody, as you say, you sue the Coca-Cola person.

00:43:45.340 You sue the Macy's. You sue everybody.

00:43:46.720 It was anywhere near the sidewalk, the slippery sidewalk.

00:43:49.820 He only sued Fox News and the theory by Revolver News, which is a great organization,

00:43:54.860 which also did a lot of Ray Epps reporting on why he didn't sue Revolver,

00:43:58.500 why he didn't sue Tucker, is that he and his lawyer, David Brock's friend, knew very well

00:44:07.700 they would fight, that this would be a battle and it would be a bare knuckled one.

00:44:13.100 And they would get all kinds of discovery from Ray Epps in this fight.

00:44:17.940 And they would figure out one way or the other whether this guy had any ties to the feds

00:44:22.180 and would not go down without a fight.

00:44:24.580 But Fox News, they point out, may have an incentive here.

00:44:28.500 They just turfed Tucker.

00:44:30.340 They haven't yet alleged that they did so for cause.

00:44:33.160 And they're about to have this big legal battle with him potentially.

00:44:36.580 And so why not just pay off Ray Epps?

00:44:39.800 Oh, the derelict Tucker, you know, the irresponsible Tucker yet again cost Fox News this money on a

00:44:48.840 Ray Epps settlement.

00:44:50.060 You see, arbitrator, we had no we had no choice but to get rid of this guy.

00:44:54.720 He was a liability.

00:44:56.320 And wouldn't it help their overall image and their legal fight with Tucker to just quietly

00:45:03.380 pay Ray Epps, make him go away?

00:45:06.520 And that's what Ray Epps and his lawyer are banking on.

00:45:09.420 I think I think that's an accurate statement.

00:45:14.700 I think that's definitely an accurate statement.

00:45:16.940 And it would make sense as to why.

00:45:19.980 Look, I know Mark referred to Fox News as having the deep pockets, but I don't think anyone's

00:45:25.040 crying poverty to Tucker Carlson either.

00:45:27.260 I mean, there's some some depth in those pockets.

00:45:29.920 Let's put it that way.

00:45:30.860 So that scenario, Megan, that you just laid out makes a tremendous amount of sense.

00:45:35.840 And one thing that is underlying that we haven't spoken about is this Martmatic lawsuit that's

00:45:41.140 coming up against Fox as well, which is very similar to the suit they settled regarding the

00:45:47.940 voting, you know, all the defamation regarding the voting machines.

00:45:54.220 So Fox may just be in a position like, let's settle all of this stuff.

00:45:57.840 Let's not have all of our hosts have to be deposed.

00:46:01.360 Let's not air all of our dirty laundry of what goes on.

00:46:04.260 And let's just have Rupert Murdoch open up his checkbook and write out as many big checks as

00:46:08.360 they have, because whether we like it or not, they still get the most eyeballs on television.

00:46:13.380 Or they don't, you know, or Fox News says, you know what, we're going to fight this one.

00:46:17.700 And then the plaintiffs had a disadvantage because Fox News or a jury essentially can see Fox News

00:46:24.120 pointing at Tucker Carlson, let's say.

00:46:25.960 Tucker Carlson is not part of the lawsuit.

00:46:27.840 So a jury can say, well, it was ninety nine point nine percent Tucker's fault, assuming

00:46:32.400 they even find that what he said was defamatory.

00:46:35.260 And then Fox News is off the hook.

00:46:37.000 That's why they're not.

00:46:38.760 Wait a minute.

00:46:39.320 How is Fox News off the hook?

00:46:41.220 If because if a jury defamed somebody while an employee of Fox News, I'm saying that if

00:46:46.520 a jury were to find that it is Tucker Carlson's fault and let's say they assign him in their

00:46:52.420 minds, you know, ninety nine percent blame because Fox News will invariably say, hey, it's it's

00:46:58.820 his fault.

00:46:59.660 You know, it's not a defense for Fox News.

00:47:02.780 Tucker was an employee of Fox when he made it.

00:47:06.080 I'm not saying it makes sense.

00:47:07.580 Jurors.

00:47:07.980 Respondia superior.

00:47:09.760 It's not a matter for the jury.

00:47:11.220 The judge will not make a divide between Tucker and Fox News for the purposes of this civil

00:47:16.840 suit.

00:47:17.540 One is the other.

00:47:18.520 Unless you can prove Tucker did something willingly and knowingly outside the scope of

00:47:22.440 his employment.

00:47:22.940 Fox News can always point the finger if they want at Tucker in front of a jury, which may

00:47:29.420 not make sense.

00:47:30.500 I'm not saying to do that.

00:47:31.760 I'm saying that's why you bring in Tucker.

00:47:33.600 That's why you bring in the public's and you bring in when in Arthur's example, anyone

00:47:37.780 who could possibly have liability, you bring them in because then they could just point

00:47:41.520 their fingers at each other and it doesn't matter.

00:47:43.260 The plaintiff wins.

00:47:44.120 That's all I'm saying.

00:47:45.920 I don't know.

00:47:46.880 It's we'll see whether they settle this or not.

00:47:48.820 I mean, there's speculation in the complaint or about the complaint that, you know, there's

00:47:53.580 no damage.

00:47:54.640 There's no there's no amount that they're asking for in the complaint, which is interesting

00:47:58.380 as well.

00:47:58.860 I mean, he's claiming that, as you point out, he lost his ranch, forced to sell his five

00:48:04.580 acre ranch, his wedding business in Arizona, moved into a mobile home parked at a remote

00:48:09.040 trailer park in the mountains of Utah.

00:48:11.340 Again, it's pinning all of that on Tucker, I think, is an uphill battle.

00:48:15.480 And there's speculation now that they're trying to get ahead of a possible Jan 6th indictment

00:48:20.060 against Trump, like the DOJ would know how bad it would look to go after Trump for that,

00:48:26.740 while one of the most well-known names associated with this whole thing, Ray Epps, was never

00:48:31.500 charged.

00:48:33.120 His lawyers say it's because he wound up cooperating with the feds.

00:48:36.800 All of it's very interesting and kind of smells bad and will continue to follow it.

00:48:42.120 Mark and Arthur, stay with me.

00:48:43.600 Many more good cases to get to.

00:48:45.260 Don't go away.

00:48:46.180 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:48:49.000 Someone is trying to frame us.

00:48:51.280 Until our names are cleared.

00:48:53.720 We're fugitives from Interpol.

00:48:55.520 Like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

00:48:59.020 Espionage.

00:48:59.600 You're still as good a shot as you used to be.

00:49:02.740 Better.

00:49:03.420 Is there love language?

00:49:04.900 We like to walk that fine line between techno thriller and romantic comedy.

00:49:10.200 We make up our own rules.

00:49:11.460 NCIS Tony and Ziva.

00:49:13.800 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

00:49:15.460 So Brittany Spears gets into this weird situation with this very well-known French basketball

00:49:28.780 player who's in the NBA, Victor Wembenyama.

00:49:34.060 Wembenyama.

00:49:34.920 Yama.

00:49:35.480 He's seven foot five.

00:49:38.640 My God.

00:49:39.380 And she was his fan and she recognized him.

00:49:43.420 I mean, he's like a giant.

00:49:44.240 It's tough.

00:49:44.980 He's tough to miss.

00:49:46.020 And he was walking through a Vegas hotel, I think, going into a restaurant and she saw

00:49:50.560 him and she kind of fangirled out and ran over there to him in the midst of a crowd.

00:49:55.720 And he wasn't paying and he didn't see her.

00:49:57.860 And she looks like she tapped him on the back.

00:50:00.680 He now claims she grabbed his shoulder and his security guard backhanded her.

00:50:08.140 And here it is.

00:50:08.940 Watch.

00:50:09.460 Here she is.

00:50:10.300 He doesn't even turn around.

00:50:11.460 Let's watch.

00:50:11.800 Let's play it again.

00:50:12.600 You can see her trying to get up to him.

00:50:14.040 You can see her raising her hand.

00:50:15.460 We're going to re-rack it.

00:50:16.460 Raising her hand to like tap him.

00:50:18.580 And he never even turns around.

00:50:20.240 So I believe she never made contact with him because it's like he didn't feel a thing

00:50:25.000 from the look of this.

00:50:26.180 And then and then there's the security guard hitting.

00:50:29.460 Yeah.

00:50:31.460 So there's a dispute about whether he hit her in the face, the security guard, or he hit

00:50:36.020 her hand in her own hand, hit herself in the face.

00:50:38.720 In any event, she's not happy.

00:50:42.480 And he kept walking into the restaurant.

00:50:44.980 He says, I didn't realize it happened.

00:50:46.260 And I'm also under advice to always keep walking whenever somebody comes up to approach me because,

00:50:50.960 you know, if I stop, I'm going to get mobbed.

00:50:52.720 And she wants police charges against this guy, Arthur.

00:50:57.280 The police say they're it looks like Mark wants to take it.

00:51:00.260 But it says police say they're not they're not going to bring charges against the security

00:51:04.240 officer.

00:51:04.880 Is it the right decision, Mark?

00:51:06.680 Of course it is.

00:51:08.120 OK, this is bothers me.

00:51:11.200 It's like welcome to being human like everybody else, Brittany.

00:51:15.300 You don't put your hands on somebody.

00:51:17.980 Apparently, I understand why she did it.

00:51:19.760 Apparently, it was loud.

00:51:20.760 I guess if it wasn't so loud, she could have said, excuse me.

00:51:24.420 But no, she had to put her hands on him.

00:51:26.820 And the guy has to defend this guy.

00:51:29.660 This is the number one pick in the NBA.

00:51:31.920 He's the hottest star right now.

00:51:34.220 It's hardest, you know, in terms of the NBA for sure.

00:51:37.540 And she just got treated like all of us would be.

00:51:40.140 You don't put your hands on somebody.

00:51:42.180 You can't assume that everybody knows who you are.

00:51:44.600 So the bouncer simply defended his client, making sure that no unwanted touching.

00:51:50.760 Everything would continue.

00:51:52.280 And no, I don't think that criminal charges are appropriate.

00:51:55.540 Are there one of the eyewitnesses?

00:51:57.680 Brian Grahalis claimed that one of I think one of the points of confusion because the security

00:52:04.280 guard says he did not know it was Britney Spears, which would give you some context that this

00:52:07.980 wasn't some lunatic.

00:52:09.220 Well, that this wasn't some rando trying to like assault your your client.

00:52:16.140 But in any event, this eyewitness says that Britney Spears was using a faux British accent

00:52:22.000 throughout the alleged incident.

00:52:24.500 What's that about?

00:52:25.440 And could be heard yelling as she was escorted from the premises in a British accent.

00:52:29.420 And this is fucking America.

00:52:32.660 I don't that's my I'm not very good at the faux British accent.

00:52:36.260 No, you're not.

00:52:37.260 No, I can't do it.

00:52:39.280 You know, it's interesting, Megan.

00:52:40.780 When I read when I read the article before I saw the video, when I read it, I was like,

00:52:47.180 you know, they're charging so many people for so many petty crimes.

00:52:51.340 And when you read that, she got slapped in the face.

00:52:55.800 So when you're reading it, it seems like, you know, the guy turned around, looked at

00:52:59.580 her and smacked her in the face.

00:53:01.260 Right.

00:53:01.700 I was like, they're not going to charge this guy for that.

00:53:04.140 I mean, that's a soul three here in New York that's opening and closed kind of situation.

00:53:08.740 But then when you actually see it, it almost looks like the bodyguard doesn't even see

00:53:13.480 her.

00:53:13.840 He just kind of puts his hand up to block her.

00:53:16.840 And there's a extreme from a legal point of view, an extreme lack of intent.

00:53:22.280 His intent there, it seems to be just to block her hands away from the guy who he's supposed

00:53:27.340 to be guarding.

00:53:28.400 And from his position, she could have a knife in her hand.

00:53:31.740 She could have a taser in her hand.

00:53:33.380 I mean, his whole job is to make sure he doesn't get touched.

00:53:38.200 But, you know, again, when you're reading it and you hear Britney Spears say no woman

00:53:43.280 deserves to be hit under any circumstances.

00:53:46.160 Well, I'm certainly not going to disagree with that.

00:53:48.840 But then when you actually see the video of what took place, there's no real intent to

00:53:54.300 hit her in the face.

00:53:55.520 I don't think there was intent, but it is an annoying bit of tape.

00:53:58.720 I'm not saying she should have reached out to touch him, but she clearly did not have

00:54:01.780 any.

00:54:02.220 She didn't have any malintent either.

00:54:04.560 And she does make a decent point, Mark, when she writes, you don't think I know what

00:54:08.800 it is to be mobbed?

00:54:10.760 She's like, I was mobbed that night trying to get in there.

00:54:13.040 I used to travel with NSYNC where girls were literally throwing themselves at these band

00:54:18.020 members every day.

00:54:19.520 I've never seen a security guard do this, she says.

00:54:22.520 Security knows the deal.

00:54:23.580 These are adoring fans.

00:54:25.440 It's not like he's the president of the United States or you're representing, you're guarding

00:54:29.840 Vladimir Putin, who lots of people want to kill.

00:54:33.560 You know, what's with the instinct to lay hands on another?

00:54:36.920 It was overly aggressive, and she is the one who filed the police report saying he ought

00:54:42.100 to be held responsible.

00:54:43.660 OK, so maybe she's right.

00:54:46.040 Again, you'd have to really be there to understand.

00:54:48.780 And ideally, if you're a bodyguard, you want as a last resort to put your hands on someone

00:54:53.860 at a minimum for civil liability reasons.

00:54:56.640 But here's the thing.

00:54:57.880 I would go over to her and say, well, listen, did you touch him, whether it was a tap or whether

00:55:02.760 it was a grab, you touched him, you know, more than anyone that that is not necessarily

00:55:09.160 something you can do without somebody's permission.

00:55:11.480 So if you want me, the D.A. or the or the the cop investigating, you want me to bring

00:55:16.820 charges against the bodyguard.

00:55:18.360 Did you also want me to ask them whether we should bring charges?

00:55:21.760 Stop it, Mark.

00:55:22.780 Would you cut it out?

00:55:23.920 Stop it.

00:55:24.580 A little petite young lady touching the guy, a seven foot six guy.

00:55:29.900 Does it not meet the definition?

00:55:35.100 If he didn't want to be touched, does it yes or no?

00:55:37.940 What are you charging it with?

00:55:39.360 What are you charging it with?

00:55:40.880 What is the touch?

00:55:41.700 Battery.

00:55:41.800 What's the charge?

00:55:42.840 Battery, my friend.

00:55:44.620 That's not that's look, Miami, L.A., Vegas.

00:55:48.960 There's no charge in New York for battery.

00:55:51.120 There's a civil charge for battery, but not a criminal charge for not for a touching.

00:55:55.800 That doesn't happen.

00:55:56.400 Should she sue?

00:55:57.260 Maybe she should sue civilly now that the police have rejected her attempt to make it

00:56:00.620 a criminal case.

00:56:01.500 Maybe she should make a point.

00:56:03.180 OK, but then what's her damage?

00:56:04.480 Yes, she sue.

00:56:05.240 She wins.

00:56:05.640 What's the humiliation?

00:56:06.940 I mean, she got hit in the face.

00:56:08.200 What's that worth something?

00:56:11.600 I'm not taking that case on record because she got hit in the face.

00:56:17.360 Come on.

00:56:18.040 No, no.

00:56:18.840 Let me try it again.

00:56:19.700 No, Megan, don't.

00:56:24.760 That's the only crime.

00:56:25.920 Don't try it again.

00:56:26.480 That's the only thing that I find.

00:56:27.980 This is fucking America.

00:56:28.700 We're your friends, Megan.

00:56:29.380 Don't try it again.

00:56:30.920 No.

00:56:31.620 It's hard to swear.

00:56:32.640 I would justify.

00:56:34.720 That's it.

00:56:35.220 Don't do it, Megan.

00:56:36.080 Please.

00:56:36.560 No, I'm leaving.

00:56:37.820 They can wind the pressing charges against you, Meg.

00:56:40.460 Let's talk about Kevin Costner in the time we have left.

00:56:43.540 His divorce is all over the news.

00:56:46.740 It's gotten very ugly.

00:56:48.380 There's a 20-year age difference.

00:56:50.960 He married this woman, Christine Baumgardner, when she was 30, and I think he was 50, thereabouts.

00:56:57.520 They've been together for 20 years or so.

00:57:00.240 They've had three kids, and she signed a prenup.

00:57:05.040 But like in all these cases, she doesn't want to live up to the prenup.

00:57:09.480 She wants the court to throw the prenup out.

00:57:11.400 She's unhappy with the amount of child support she was going to get via the prenup.

00:57:15.280 Now she's demanding that she gets $250,000 a month for the three children.

00:57:22.740 The court just said you can have 130.

00:57:25.600 Single tier.

00:57:26.480 How is she going to survive on that?

00:57:28.160 I don't know.

00:57:28.820 I feel like you sign a deal.

00:57:30.280 You sign a deal.

00:57:31.260 Like, why doesn't the prenup just answer this whole thing, and it's over and done with, Arthur?

00:57:38.320 Well, it should.

00:57:39.520 I think that one of the grounds is if there was any form of duress when she signed the prenup.

00:57:44.940 I know once, sometimes it's successful if, hypothetically, it's the day before the wedding.

00:57:51.520 Oh, by the way, honey, you know we have 1,000 people coming to the wedding tomorrow,

00:57:55.200 but I need you to sign this piece of paper, otherwise the wedding's not going to happen.

00:57:58.960 So if those were the circumstances, then she may have a point.

00:58:02.800 I doubt Kevin Costner is that stupid, and my guess is that this is an ironclad prenup,

00:58:09.720 and he owned several properties when they got married.

00:58:13.060 She's entitled to none of them.

00:58:14.940 The judge has even gone as far as saying she's got to move out of the house, the marital residence,

00:58:19.420 on July 31st, when she can only take her toiletries, her clothes, and her jewelry.

00:58:25.920 She can't take the pots and the pans.

00:58:27.540 She can't take the furniture.

00:58:29.040 She can't take anything else.

00:58:30.240 He was specific.

00:58:32.160 Toiletries, clothes, and jewelry, and that's all she could take.

00:58:35.860 And then in November, there's going to be a hearing on the validity of the prenup.

00:58:41.020 And if it's found valid, then it articulates exactly what she does get and what she doesn't get.

00:58:47.620 What do you make of it, Mark?

00:58:48.720 Because the reason he's being so hard about that house is Kevin Costner owned that house.

00:58:52.880 It's apparently like $149 million mansion.

00:58:56.080 I mean, Kevin Costner has done well.

00:58:58.260 This is before Yellowstone and all that.

00:59:00.660 So, you know, No Way Out and all of his best field of dreams.

00:59:04.960 We could go down the list, but that's what bought that house.

00:59:07.740 Bull Durham, that's what bought that house.

00:59:09.140 Not anything Christine Baumgartner did.

00:59:11.720 And so, with all due respect to her, I realize she had three of the man's children,

00:59:15.580 and she will get some hefty amount of child support.

00:59:18.040 But, like, how do these women turn around and say,

00:59:21.400 throw away the prenup that I willingly signed when I came into this marriage with a very,

00:59:26.380 very rich man who had a lot more money than I did?

00:59:29.500 And I've been able to enjoy that money for 20 years, but now I want half?

00:59:32.760 Now I want you to pretend I didn't sign the deal I signed?

00:59:36.020 Right.

00:59:36.840 I don't know the answer, but I'm putting on my defense attorney hat.

00:59:39.580 And, of course, I'll get crap from you guys.

00:59:41.180 But, you know, did the circumstances change?

00:59:43.580 In other words, 20 years ago, she signs a piece of paper.

00:59:46.980 Maybe the kid's lifestyle, maybe the needs of the children far exceeded anything they can envision.

00:59:53.340 Maybe one has therapy needs and, you know, needs more money than what they initially contemplated.

00:59:59.280 We're not talking about money for her, although I'm sure a lot of this money will go for her.

01:00:02.760 Boob jobs.

01:00:03.540 But we're talking about money.

01:00:05.160 That's what he says.

01:00:06.140 To support these kids, who I feel very sorry for, as an aside.

01:00:10.800 I mean, every time daddy attacks mommy or mommy attacks daddy, the kids are going to wind up

01:00:15.620 saying, what's wrong with me then?

01:00:16.900 Because I've got their DNA.

01:00:18.240 So for all families who are looking to fight, just know that you're harming the children.

01:00:23.120 I know.

01:00:23.380 And to pretend, you know, she said to the court that that one hundred and thirty nine,

01:00:27.280 thirty thousand dollars a month is totally insufficient.

01:00:30.280 He wanted to pay fifty two grand a month.

01:00:32.240 She wanted two hundred and fifty a month.

01:00:34.020 The court settled on basically one hundred and thirty a month thousand hundred thirty thousand

01:00:38.340 a month.

01:00:38.760 And she she said Kevin Costner's proposals were completely inappropriate.

01:00:43.080 She needs two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a month in charge.

01:00:45.080 I mean, these people get so rich, they forget how absurd those numbers sound to regular people

01:00:51.300 and how I got news for them.

01:00:53.120 And I know you two guys, as successful as you are as lawyers, know this, too.

01:00:57.420 You can live very happily on a modest income.

01:01:00.780 You do not need one hundred and fifty million dollar mansion.

01:01:04.020 You don't need three million dollars a year to raise your kids.

01:01:06.840 You can find a nice public school.

01:01:08.740 You can find a nice duplex like I used to live in while I was at Fox News.

01:01:12.200 It's not like, you know, I was always living high on the hog and and be perfectly happy.

01:01:17.840 They they get drunk on these trappings and convince themselves that they need them.

01:01:23.640 Devil's advocate.

01:01:24.580 I don't know how the kids are.

01:01:25.640 Let's say that they're in high school already and they become accustomed to going to a private

01:01:29.680 school.

01:01:30.420 You're going to pull the kids from this very fancy schmancy, expensive private school.

01:01:34.380 I agree.

01:01:34.700 But, Mark, you're right.

01:01:35.980 And you made a good argument of the special needs and all that.

01:01:39.140 But one hundred and thirty two thousand dollars a month.

01:01:42.620 I mean, you could put your kids anywhere and as much therapy as they need, as much clothes

01:01:47.180 as they need, a wheelchair, one hundred and thirty two thousand a month.

01:01:52.520 And actually found that to be the judge found that to be appropriate.

01:01:55.880 So there's something.

01:01:56.680 OK, she had to.

01:01:58.840 She wanted she wanted one hundred and twenty more on top of that.

01:02:02.580 The fact that she's crying about that.

01:02:04.160 And Megan, to your point, studies have shown the happiest people are the ones who make

01:02:09.480 about one hundred, one hundred thirty thousand dollars a year, a year.

01:02:14.220 And so, I mean, you know, yes, it's way out of control.

01:02:17.740 And, Mark, I could not agree with you more about the children or the ultimate people who

01:02:22.940 suffer in these situations.

01:02:24.460 There's no ifs, ands or buts about that.

01:02:26.460 It would be so nice to just like lead by example.

01:02:28.500 You know what?

01:02:28.740 If she had said the marriage didn't work out, we had 20 great years together.

01:02:31.980 We've made three beautiful children.

01:02:33.760 I'm I'm going to get a job at the public library.

01:02:36.380 I'm going to go take a job in retail and I'm going to work and I'm going to help support

01:02:41.460 my children.

01:02:42.100 And he'll he'll live up to the prenup and I'll live up to the prenup.

01:02:45.640 And this isn't about money.

01:02:47.100 I'm telling it's just disgusting.

01:02:48.720 I know a lot of these people get sucked into the Hollywood culture.

01:02:52.960 You really start to think you need to have the place on Malibu or you don't count.

01:02:57.180 And it's BS.

01:02:58.860 It's a it's a lack of values that that place, that entire town can can infect inside of

01:03:06.240 you.

01:03:06.460 And if you if you allow yourself, if you don't inoculate yourself, this is why it's smart

01:03:09.700 to get out like Clint Eastwood did of that.

01:03:12.540 Kelly has not lost her Albany roots, her Albany, Jersey, baby.

01:03:17.400 We spent our summers in Jersey.

01:03:19.300 Ha.

01:03:20.020 OK, great to see you both.

01:03:21.920 Another great debate.

01:03:22.940 You guys are the best.

01:03:24.420 Thank you.

01:03:25.040 Have a great one.

01:03:26.020 Bye, Arthur.

01:03:26.480 All right.

01:03:26.780 See you soon.

01:03:28.600 That's who's happy.

01:03:30.020 We will be right back with The Wall Street Journal's Kim Strassel.

01:03:33.940 Really looking forward to talking to her.

01:03:35.480 They don't let her out to do a lot of interviews because she's a Fox News contributor.

01:03:38.200 But she's got a new book out.

01:03:39.840 So we're able to talk to her.

01:03:41.160 And I've been wanting to for a long, long time.

01:03:42.940 Don't miss that.

01:03:44.160 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

01:03:46.940 Someone is trying to frame us.

01:03:49.220 Until our names are cleared.

01:03:51.600 We're fugitives from Interpol.

01:03:53.400 Like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

01:03:55.560 Hmm.

01:03:56.900 Espionage.

01:03:57.460 You're still as good a shot as you used to be.

01:04:00.640 Better.

01:04:01.300 Is there love language?

01:04:02.780 We like to walk that fine line between techno thriller and romantic comedy.

01:04:08.080 We make up our own rules.

01:04:09.900 NCIS Tony and Ziva.

01:04:11.580 Now streaming on Paramount Plus.

01:04:13.320 I am joined now by the author of a brand new book that's out tomorrow.

01:04:20.320 It's called The Biden Malaise.

01:04:23.040 How America bounces back from Joe Biden's dismal repeat of the Jimmy Carter years.

01:04:29.140 Great title.

01:04:30.420 Kimberly Strassel is a columnist at The Wall Street Journal.

01:04:33.400 She is here with us today.

01:04:34.520 Kimberly, thanks so much for being on.

01:04:35.820 How are you?

01:04:36.920 I am good.

01:04:37.620 It is so good to see you again.

01:04:39.740 Oh, it's wonderful to see you.

01:04:41.460 When I was at Fox and you were a Fox News contributor, I could talk to you all the time.

01:04:44.860 And now I can't because they lock up the contributors.

01:04:46.960 But you're brilliant.

01:04:47.760 I love reading you.

01:04:50.000 Everybody should just have Kimberly on their automatic email inbox because everything you

01:04:54.360 write is brilliant.

01:04:55.140 And you're so insightful on so many issues.

01:04:57.160 I also like Potomac Watch, which is your Wall Street Journal podcast, which I listen to as

01:05:00.320 well.

01:05:01.340 OK, there's a lot to go over before we get to the book.

01:05:04.120 Let me just start with a couple of news items so we can cover the biggest items in the news.

01:05:07.720 What's with the Joe Biden creepiness with a little girl, the little baby girl?

01:05:11.360 It was a toddler.

01:05:12.600 This is overseas.

01:05:13.740 We'll show the audience the video.

01:05:15.700 Hold on.

01:05:15.940 We've got it where it was in Helsinki.

01:05:18.740 And he nuzzles up to this toddler girl.

01:05:23.420 He he does like the fake biting of this girl's upper shoulder back area.

01:05:28.520 And the girl is clearly recoiling.

01:05:31.040 Ew, ew, ew.

01:05:32.440 Ew, ew.

01:05:33.700 No, it's no.

01:05:35.960 I look, this is a longtime problem, Megan.

01:05:39.040 And the thing that was amazing to me was that the entire Democratic Party decided to close

01:05:43.860 their eyes to it back when he was running for the nomination.

01:05:47.340 This came out.

01:05:48.040 And it's not just to me.

01:05:49.200 I mean, it's not just his sort of behavior with little girls, but obviously big girls

01:05:54.120 too, grown up women.

01:05:56.340 And, you know, an obvious lack of personal space and his inability to understand that this

01:06:03.860 is just, you know, not really appropriate these days to to think that just because you're

01:06:08.880 the president of the United States or a powerful person that you can love or hug or touch anyone

01:06:13.880 in any way.

01:06:15.640 That's a weird I mean, that is just a weird thing to do.

01:06:18.240 I mean, you and I as women are probably just generally affectionate people when it comes

01:06:23.080 to babies.

01:06:23.600 That's just tends to be how women are built.

01:06:26.500 Never in a million years would I do that to somebody else's child.

01:06:29.160 It's just bizarre.

01:06:30.780 And honestly, like I will say this, we reported responsibly and carefully on the contents of

01:06:37.180 Ashley Biden's diary, which was stolen and has turned into a whole FBI case.

01:06:42.100 But in that diary, she writes his own daughter about inappropriate showers that he took with

01:06:47.980 her when she was young.

01:06:48.900 And I cannot look at that video without thinking of that, like the media has no interest in

01:06:54.700 this story and his inappropriateness toward women, old and young.

01:06:58.600 As you point out, they just want to stick with Uncle Joe, no matter how many reports of him

01:07:03.760 being an asshole or inappropriate with kids or women or girls like it doesn't matter, Kimberly.

01:07:09.260 Well, right.

01:07:10.220 And exactly.

01:07:10.940 And by the way, the idea that he doesn't get any pass either by being grandpa.

01:07:16.020 And we've also recently had these stories that have come out that have finally been more

01:07:20.300 honest about how Joe Biden behaves in the private of his office, screeching and yelling

01:07:25.000 at people, a lot of expletives.

01:07:28.120 And if you really know anything about Joe Biden's history, that's really much more in

01:07:32.680 keeping with what we know about him.

01:07:35.020 He's pretty arrogant.

01:07:36.660 He thinks he's one of the smartest people in the room.

01:07:39.700 And he doesn't always treat others around him working for him or those with a lot of

01:07:45.320 respect.

01:07:46.120 So but the media, they just will not report on that story.

01:07:49.240 If it was anybody else, they would.

01:07:50.800 But not Joe Biden.

01:07:52.160 Yeah.

01:07:52.360 Can you imagine if Donald Trump did that to a little girl?

01:07:55.100 The amount of press that would be spent on that?

01:07:58.680 And I'm OK.

01:08:00.340 Yeah.

01:08:00.640 No, any Republican kid, of course.

01:08:02.300 Like, you know, Ron DeSantis would get the same treatment as Trump.

01:08:05.140 So the Maureen Callahan over in the Daily Mail has a great piece basically saying that

01:08:10.380 the Biden administration is laughing at us.

01:08:12.300 They're laughing at us over the cocaine gate, cocaine White House.

01:08:16.420 And in particular, you need look no further than this John Kirby soundbite where he was

01:08:22.640 on Fox News Sunday with Shannon Bream talking about how it's just it's just one of those

01:08:27.600 things.

01:08:28.000 Cam, you just can't just can't figure out who brought the cocaine cocaine and can't do it.

01:08:32.680 Listen to soundbite 18, you know, nothing about who brought this in inability to track

01:08:38.680 people, no surveillance cameras.

01:08:40.000 What if it was something much more dangerous?

01:08:41.860 Well, again, I can't really speak to the investigation that was done by the Secret Service.

01:08:45.340 They did the best they could to track down how it got there and who it might have belonged

01:08:49.940 to.

01:08:50.220 And they just were not able to come up with any forensic evidence that that proves it.

01:08:54.880 Did they?

01:08:57.240 I don't think that they did.

01:08:58.420 And by the way, look, they should have to explain to us exactly why they can't find

01:09:03.120 this person.

01:09:04.440 OK, why are there not security cameras everywhere?

01:09:06.900 Why do you not have a list of who is using those cubbies?

01:09:10.400 Why are you not taking further steps to identify anyone who might be coming into the White House

01:09:15.320 who might be a potential cocaine user?

01:09:17.440 They don't want to find the answers to this question.

01:09:20.760 And again, we were just talking about double standards.

01:09:22.860 I can promise you that if this was a Trump White House or Republican White House, this

01:09:27.180 would be a feeding frenzy among the press.

01:09:30.580 We'd be having daily headlines about it.

01:09:32.880 But this one, everyone's determined to make it go away.

01:09:36.860 What if it were anthrax?

01:09:38.480 You know, they evacuated the White House when they first found it because that's what they

01:09:41.580 were worried about.

01:09:42.600 Don't you think we'd be getting a different result?

01:09:45.940 Oh, of course.

01:09:46.920 But again, this is my point.

01:09:48.520 If the Secret Service is saying that it can't find the answer to this, they need to give

01:09:53.080 us a full accounting to Congress about why not.

01:09:56.580 How lax is the security at the White House?

01:09:59.960 I mean, what what what what do we need to do to fix that?

01:10:03.280 Because clearly this is not a good situation.

01:10:06.640 What's going to change?

01:10:07.900 All right.

01:10:08.160 Let's talk politics for a minute.

01:10:09.560 We had a couple of events this weekend, as I mentioned at the top of the show.

01:10:12.680 We had many of the candidates, not Trump, in Iowa being interviewed by Tucker Carlson,

01:10:17.600 aired on The Blaze and is available on YouTube if you want to check it out.

01:10:20.740 Then we had Trump and a couple of others show up at the Turning Point Action Conference down

01:10:25.340 in Palm Beach.

01:10:27.200 And I watched all of the Tucker interviews in Iowa.

01:10:32.040 My own take on it, Kim, you tell me is DeSantis is getting better.

01:10:35.940 He's getting a little bit more deft at handling the tough questions, but I don't know that it's

01:10:42.620 going to make a difference.

01:10:43.880 Right.

01:10:44.060 Is it too little too late?

01:10:45.140 And I realize we're overall early in the process, but there's speculation about whether

01:10:49.740 he just launched late.

01:10:50.820 He should.

01:10:51.180 He missed the opportunity to run that momentum out of his big win in Florida, and he's never

01:10:54.820 been able to get close to Trump again in the polls.

01:10:58.000 So I think there's a couple of things going on when I look at DeSantis.

01:11:01.020 I think I think you're right.

01:11:02.340 I think he might have launched at the wrong time.

01:11:04.480 I also think that he's made the mistake, and they've admitted this recently, that they bulked

01:11:11.160 up a little bit too much on the staff.

01:11:14.080 They're bleeding a lot of money, and they spread themselves out a little bit too far.

01:11:18.320 He's got to be focused more on Iowa and the early states, not the rest of the country.

01:11:23.220 If he can't make it there, he cannot make it anywhere.

01:11:25.980 So they seem to have acknowledged that.

01:11:29.180 Look, my other thing that I think I'm seeing with DeSantis is I think he's chasing Trump

01:11:34.000 voters a little bit too much.

01:11:35.460 I'd love to see Ron DeSantis be Ron DeSantis.

01:11:39.060 That's what got him so far in Florida.

01:11:42.060 We're hearing a lot about him on cultural issues and the swamp, et cetera.

01:11:46.920 I want to hear him talk more about economics.

01:11:48.920 I want to hear him talk more with an actual vision on foreign policy.

01:11:52.260 And I just don't feel we've had that yet because I think he's been a little bit too

01:11:56.680 micromanaged.

01:11:58.420 He did start taking shots at Trump on Fox over the weekend.

01:12:04.260 He started to say about the debt that Trump ran up, that he didn't build the wall, only

01:12:09.400 50 miles of wall.

01:12:10.600 And that is definitely a strategy shift.

01:12:14.640 I do wonder, Kim, why did it take him so long to realize that, that the entire campaign

01:12:19.440 thus far has been on conservative media that's devout to Trump and he he hasn't moved the

01:12:25.300 needle at all.

01:12:26.800 And it seems to me because he's also going to sit down with Jake Tapper of CNN.

01:12:30.720 He's sitting down with me as well.

01:12:31.880 Finally, he's finally realizing he's got to get out.

01:12:36.780 He can't move voters inside the Trump, you know, tent.

01:12:41.680 They're Trump's.

01:12:42.820 And he's got to do something to reach out to a broader group.

01:12:46.520 That's right.

01:12:48.100 You could not have said it more perfectly.

01:12:50.320 You know, I've always believed that as we go into this primary, that you start, Donald

01:12:54.300 Trump starts with about the base he had in 2016.

01:12:57.340 If you saw them, him in all of the primary polls, he usually came up 32, 35, 40 percent.

01:13:04.340 It could be even a little bit higher just because he was president.

01:13:07.260 I still think he has that very united support.

01:13:09.840 Nothing Ron DeSantis says is likely to peel those people off.

01:13:14.320 But that means there's a whole bunch of rest of the folks in the party who are open to

01:13:19.140 a message.

01:13:20.380 And, you know, I think that DeSantis has the record to certainly move those people and get

01:13:25.460 get a look.

01:13:26.520 But he's got to start talking about that a little bit more instead of, again, just chasing

01:13:31.140 after Trump voters.

01:13:33.520 Here's a bit of Ron DeSantis at the Family Leadership Summit in Des Moines late last week

01:13:38.580 and his messaging on the possibility of a Gavin Newsom getting into this race.

01:13:44.320 I'm fully prepared to have a Florida, California showdown and let the people choose what's

01:13:50.340 the better vision for the United States of America, because I'm very confident that the

01:13:55.400 freedom in Florida is what more people would choose rather than the public defecation on

01:14:00.800 the streets of San Francisco.

01:14:04.380 He claims he actually witnessed that happen when he went out there, Kim.

01:14:07.280 I mean, it's not hard to see in in that city or in New York City, where I personally have

01:14:11.440 witnessed the same CNN.

01:14:13.660 This comment comes to CNN reports slow pace of Biden's reelection campaign feeds Democrats

01:14:19.400 2024 anxiety and reports as follows.

01:14:22.920 Top Democrats and donors reaching out to those seen as possible replacement presidential candidates

01:14:27.000 for Biden.

01:14:28.080 Get ready.

01:14:28.520 They urge Biden will not actually be running for reelection.

01:14:31.920 Despite what he says, it does add that the very few aides who have been hired for his reelection

01:14:36.780 campaign dismissed that as absurd.

01:14:39.700 So could we could we notwithstanding Trump's dominance in the polls and Biden's dominance

01:14:45.760 on the Democratic side actually be looking at a race between a DeSantis Newsom or two candidates

01:14:51.320 who we're not spending all our time talking about?

01:14:53.740 It is absolutely stunning to me, Megan, that there has not been a challenger to Joe Biden.

01:15:00.320 He is so weak in the polls.

01:15:02.980 Nobody wants him to run for the presidency again.

01:15:06.040 And a lot of these guys have name and star power, like a guy like Gavin Newsom.

01:15:10.720 It's just perplexing to me.

01:15:12.920 Also, Biden seems to be broadcasting that he's not that interested, right?

01:15:17.620 He's not out there doing events.

01:15:19.280 He's hardly got any staff.

01:15:20.680 Yes, they pulled in some a decent amount of money.

01:15:23.320 It's certainly a good number.

01:15:25.540 But what are they using it for?

01:15:27.520 And I don't know if the question is that they're they're actually have some strategy to pull

01:15:32.160 out at some point.

01:15:33.400 I don't know if it's simply that the president can't be bothered because we've got an old

01:15:37.620 guy in the office.

01:15:38.620 Maybe it's too much to actually go out and campaign.

01:15:41.520 But either way, it's remarkable to me that nobody on the Democratic side has taken advantage

01:15:46.760 of this situation.

01:15:48.440 I know.

01:15:48.820 I mean, you've got RFK Jr.

01:15:50.140 out there.

01:15:50.840 Um, you should have heard how NPR listen to NPR's up first in the mornings, how dismissive

01:15:57.060 they were of him today.

01:15:58.280 It was like, well, you know, there's this other guy who's a conspiracy theorist who's

01:16:02.320 in the middle of an anti-Semitism controversy.

01:16:04.340 It's like he made this remark over the over the weekend that got blown up.

01:16:08.620 In any event, they have no time for RFK Jr., notwithstanding the fact that his poll numbers

01:16:14.720 are remarkable, given somebody who wasn't even able to get on social media about six

01:16:20.700 months ago.

01:16:21.460 Right.

01:16:21.780 They've got to be a little fears, fearful of him.

01:16:24.160 And there's a report out today that Joe Manchin may indeed be running as a third party candidate

01:16:31.640 with this other group that's threatening.

01:16:34.720 If it's Biden, Trump, they're going to push a candidate and maybe Joe Manchin.

01:16:38.380 So should we be looking at that?

01:16:40.000 Do you think that's real?

01:16:40.820 I think people should be looking at no labels very closely.

01:16:45.380 Look, my view is that, you know, we have a system in the United States that really only

01:16:51.120 kind of caters to two parties.

01:16:52.680 It's very difficult for third parties to make it run.

01:16:55.560 But we are in an unusual situation where a majority of both Republicans and Democrats

01:17:01.260 are not enthusiastic about the lead people for their nomination running again.

01:17:06.200 Meanwhile, if I'm Joe Manchin, OK, given how the Democratic Party has treated me over the

01:17:12.540 last two years, what loyalty do I have to them at the moment?

01:17:16.540 He has shown a lot.

01:17:17.560 I have to be honest, given the pummeling and the protesting they did outside of his houseboat

01:17:23.340 and the attacks he's received in the press.

01:17:26.160 But no labels this third party outfit.

01:17:28.660 It's got a ton of money.

01:17:30.060 It's getting a lot more.

01:17:31.560 It's vowed to try to get a placeholder on every single state in the country.

01:17:36.200 And watch this space because they're going to get closer to the moments of the primaries

01:17:41.140 and make a decision.

01:17:41.960 And, you know, Joe Manchin looks and he doesn't think that he has any viable path for reelection

01:17:47.220 in West Virginia to the Senate.

01:17:49.260 And it's not looking good.

01:17:50.700 Why not go out with a bang?

01:17:53.440 Right.

01:17:54.200 Oh, my.

01:17:54.660 I mean, you're right.

01:17:55.860 I'm sick of the two party system.

01:17:57.260 It would be great if we had another meaningful lane where somebody could get on the ticket and

01:18:01.200 just give us another choice.

01:18:02.100 I don't care if it's a spoiler or not.

01:18:03.460 You know, it's it's about who people want, having choices to try to explain to your kids

01:18:08.200 why you only have two parties in the United States.

01:18:10.000 You know, it's like they don't get it, especially because we're registered independents.

01:18:14.240 They're like, what do you mean?

01:18:15.280 What do we get to vote in primaries?

01:18:16.900 I'm like, it depends on the state in any event.

01:18:19.900 The book is fascinating and it's so timely.

01:18:22.800 And it takes a look back at Carter, Reagan, the different messaging and draws the parallels

01:18:29.160 between Carter and Joe Biden right now in a very devastating way.

01:18:33.860 It also talks about how Reagan came in because there are lessons in here for Republicans to

01:18:38.200 it on the you know, in the midst of this Carter presidency, which was such a disaster.

01:18:43.540 And instead of, you know, just spending all his time being negative about Carter and about

01:18:48.620 the state of the country, which would have been very easy.

01:18:50.700 You know, look at what a hot mess we are.

01:18:53.040 He he was that ever sunny optimist.

01:18:56.260 And he did offer a new kind of message for the country, which is why he won in a landslide.

01:19:02.860 And it does sound very different from what we're hearing from any one of the Republicans

01:19:09.980 running right now.

01:19:11.260 So let's start with Reagan and Republicans.

01:19:13.300 Then we'll do Carter and Biden.

01:19:14.840 And let we pulled a bit, which you highlight in the book, from Reagan's election eve address

01:19:21.400 to the nation in 1980 before he would win in a record landslide.

01:19:25.440 Listen to his messaging.

01:19:26.260 For the first time in our memory, many Americans are asking, does history still have a place

01:19:33.880 for America, for her people, for her great ideals?

01:19:37.960 There are some who answer no, that our energy is spent, our days of greatness at an end, that

01:19:44.460 a great national malaise is upon us.

01:19:47.540 They say we must cut our expectations, conserve and withdraw, that we must tell our children

01:19:53.140 not to dream as we once dreamed.

01:19:55.600 During this last year, I've had a chance to meet and talk on the campaign trail with Americans

01:20:01.260 in every corner of the United States.

01:20:03.860 I find no national malaise.

01:20:06.560 I find nothing wrong with the American people.

01:20:09.540 Oh, they're frustrated, even angry at what has been done to this blessed land.

01:20:13.880 But more than anything, they're sturdy and robust as they've always been.

01:20:19.300 My God, is it any wonder he won the way he did?

01:20:23.140 So don't you wish we had that today?

01:20:25.840 And that's actually one of the big points of the book is, yes, there are all these parallels

01:20:30.460 between Biden and Carter.

01:20:31.600 We can talk about some of them.

01:20:33.020 But what I wanted conservative readers to take away was what came after Jimmy Carter and

01:20:39.640 that that was he so mismanaged the country and there was such an enormous backlash that

01:20:45.840 there was this great opening for any conservative who came along.

01:20:49.020 But we, in particular, happen to have one who was the great communicator.

01:20:54.840 And I make the argument in the book that we're seeing a similar backlash to Biden policies.

01:21:00.480 We're also seeing similar demographic changes on the ground in terms of how different minority

01:21:06.680 voters, for instance, who they're aligning with, what the kind of policies are that they

01:21:11.400 reject Biden and if the Republican Party were able to come up with someone that was another

01:21:18.920 Reagan-like character, somebody who not just had plans and policies and said what they were

01:21:25.300 going to do that was different, but who expressed some optimism.

01:21:29.100 I think that you could win in a landslide.

01:21:31.840 And that is my one concern a little bit about the field.

01:21:34.160 We've got some guys like Tim Scott.

01:21:35.440 They're very sunny, but our leaders are still much more interested in in just the fight.

01:21:41.440 And we have to show the fight.

01:21:42.820 We have to show the fight.

01:21:43.660 But we have to have an optimistic vision for the country, too.

01:21:48.440 You know, Vivek Ramaswamy got a standing ovation at the Iowa Forum, and he sounds the way

01:21:55.780 you're saying it would be nice to have somebody sound.

01:21:58.700 But I'll be honest, even though I'm a huge Vivek fan and I think he's a good man and I have

01:22:03.580 personal stories of people I know who he's really helped.

01:22:06.700 So I really believe it's true.

01:22:08.600 He's a good person.

01:22:10.440 I have to be honest, in my political analysis, it felt like he's not inspiring people in the

01:22:16.160 way anything close to the way that Ronald Reagan did.

01:22:19.060 So it takes more than just the right message.

01:22:21.840 You know, there has to like Reagan.

01:22:24.400 Maybe it was his acting history.

01:22:26.360 I don't know what it was, but he had a way of turning the phrase and delivering the message

01:22:32.080 that just resonated.

01:22:33.840 I mean, I got chills listening to that.

01:22:36.220 What what presidential candidate left or right has given you the chills in the past 10 years?

01:22:42.920 No.

01:22:43.660 I mean, and partly because, you know, he had that little thing, Megan, called humor, you

01:22:49.540 know, and he knew how to smile.

01:22:51.140 When was the last time you actually saw a politician actually look joyful about their job and what

01:22:57.020 they're doing and who actually said, this is an amazing place and this is why we should

01:23:03.420 be so proud and here's how we're going to do it.

01:23:05.820 There's anger out there in the country and I get it.

01:23:08.760 And I understand that politicians feel that they need to channel that and tap into it.

01:23:13.480 But when we talk about leaders, it's because we actually want people who are going to go a

01:23:18.220 little bit their own way and lead.

01:23:19.720 And we'd love to have them lead us to a better feeling of optimism and to a vision that they

01:23:25.700 have.

01:23:26.120 And I think that that's what's missing in so many of our leaders is a smile, the ability

01:23:30.940 to have some humor and the ability to remind people about what really matters.

01:23:36.580 You write in the book about being a little girl.

01:23:38.600 We're about the same age in the 70s and hearing your mom rip on Carter.

01:23:43.360 It's it's funny because I also remember going for the first time ever with my mom to the

01:23:49.100 voting booth on Election Day.

01:23:51.160 And she this is back in the day when you'd let your kids sit in the car and you'd you'd

01:23:54.900 go away as the parent.

01:23:56.260 And I sat in there waiting and she came back and I said, who'd you vote for?

01:24:02.460 And she goes, that's private.

01:24:06.000 I'm five.

01:24:07.120 What do you?

01:24:07.880 And she goes, I voted for Ford.

01:24:09.920 And to this day, my mother denies that she voted for Ford.

01:24:12.740 But I'm telling you, Kimberly, she voted for Ford.

01:24:15.420 You remember it.

01:24:16.580 No, you know, my mom that she was actually yelling curses out the window at Jimmy Carter,

01:24:23.240 but I remember it.

01:24:24.360 So our moms, they they tend to blank some of this stuff.

01:24:27.360 But we remember.

01:24:29.560 But it was a very dark time in our country's history.

01:24:33.440 And when the way you draw the parallels between the mistakes Carter made and how we got sucked

01:24:39.000 into that awfulness and the mistakes Biden has made and how we're getting sucked into

01:24:43.620 it again is very compelling.

01:24:45.520 Can you talk about some of the parallels?

01:24:47.880 Yeah, thanks.

01:24:48.580 And, you know, here's the thing is, if you look at it on its face, there does seem to be

01:24:52.540 these incredibly eerie comparisons.

01:24:54.800 It's almost creepy, you know, whether it's inflation, whether it's energy prices, whether

01:25:00.160 it's disastrous foreign policy.

01:25:02.680 You know, a lot of people don't know this, but actually we've had two presidents of modern

01:25:05.960 history that had an immigration flood.

01:25:09.280 Guess who they were?

01:25:10.100 You know, obviously, Joe Biden right now.

01:25:11.980 Jimmy Carter had the Marial Boatlift, which absolutely overwhelmed Florida at the time.

01:25:17.400 And it was done because of very poor policies.

01:25:20.240 But the book is also making the case.

01:25:23.020 And I think this is really important that this comparison, nonetheless, is totally unfair

01:25:27.560 to Jimmy Carter for a couple of reasons.

01:25:31.260 I mean, one is because, you know, Jimmy Carter inherited a lot of the problems.

01:25:37.080 Now, he made them much better.

01:25:38.380 OK, but, you know, the 1970s, we were already in the great inflation.

01:25:42.820 Inflation was about what it is today when he took office.

01:25:45.840 We'd already had an oil shock.

01:25:48.740 So he was dealing with energy things.

01:25:50.400 We didn't have a country that had had a fracking revolution.

01:25:54.080 My argument is Joe Biden had none of those problems when he came in.

01:25:57.620 In fact, he had an economy that was preparing to round the corner from COVID and roar back

01:26:03.080 into full bloom.

01:26:05.540 We had an energy sector that was hugely independent and a world leader.

01:26:09.760 And he managed to proactively wreck those situations.

01:26:13.400 So that needs to be one difference.

01:26:15.720 But the other difference is he had all of Jimmy Carter's lessons to learn from.

01:26:20.480 He was in the Senate when Jimmy Carter was already president.

01:26:23.880 And he also had Reagan to know he knew better than to take these progressive steps that he

01:26:28.920 did.

01:26:29.560 And so he really does deserve a lot more blame than even Jimmy Carter.

01:26:34.400 You know, Reagan's famous for, among other great lines, government is not the solution to

01:26:39.140 your problem.

01:26:39.840 Government is your problem or the problem.

01:26:41.900 And as you take us back to the Carter years and again, comparing him to Biden, it is very

01:26:47.780 clear why he said that, believed that and why that was part of his message.

01:26:52.960 Carter and Biden both believe exactly the opposite.

01:26:56.640 They both expanded government.

01:26:58.460 They both handicapped private industry and see it as a hindrance to a booming economy, not

01:27:05.180 the lifeblood of it.

01:27:06.040 Yep, it was an absolute staple.

01:27:09.780 It has been a staple of Biden's time and also Jimmy Carter.

01:27:13.420 Look, Jimmy Carter gave us two new cabinet departments, Department of Energy and the Department

01:27:18.260 of Education.

01:27:19.740 And for those who, by the way, who think that and they're right to talk about the moral

01:27:23.960 differences.

01:27:24.480 Jimmy Carter was a moral man.

01:27:25.840 And I certainly think you give him that, do you?

01:27:28.900 But he played politics with the best of them.

01:27:31.620 We have the Department of Education because he bought himself the endorsement from the National

01:27:36.600 Education Association.

01:27:37.940 And that's how he got it is that I'll make you a Department of Education.

01:27:41.720 He was a total technocrat.

01:27:43.360 He believed that government could fix everything.

01:27:46.500 You know, we had 15 major pieces of environmental legislations under him.

01:27:52.780 And Joe Biden's been a repeat, although I would, again, argue worse.

01:27:57.640 Give Jimmy Carter this.

01:27:59.080 He at least believed the corporations could be a force for good in the country.

01:28:04.300 And he even deregulated a few areas.

01:28:07.460 Joe Biden has got a gang of regulators that operate from the premise that corporations are

01:28:13.780 evil and that they need to be stopped from doing what they are doing.

01:28:18.200 Add in there all of the spending and government programs.

01:28:21.680 And we have arguably not had anything even close to repeating what Jimmy Carter did until now.

01:28:30.380 On foreign policy, it's striking, too.

01:28:35.360 Yep.

01:28:36.020 You can argue that Jimmy Carter's term effectively ended in the beginning of 1980 with his failed

01:28:43.080 Iranian hostage rescue attempt.

01:28:45.000 You can make the argument that Joe Biden has never recovered from the beginning of his

01:28:49.220 administration from his disastrous Afghanistan withdrawal.

01:28:53.840 And, you know, the funny thing about Joe Biden, though, is he fancies himself a foreign policy expert.

01:28:58.740 I mean, he's always believed that this is where he really has chops, even though he wanted to

01:29:03.140 divide Iraq into four separate states.

01:29:05.800 And he said such cockamamie ideas that would have gone absolutely nowhere, actually would have

01:29:10.540 really been disastrous. And then he was put into office and implemented one of them and it was a

01:29:16.220 disaster. And now we're in Ukraine and he doesn't want to take any responsibility for that.

01:29:20.720 He wants to blame all of it on Trump. But, you know, I don't know if it's a Democrat thing or if it's

01:29:25.460 just a those two guys thing. But foreign policy has been a disaster. I just did the American people

01:29:30.380 care.

01:29:30.720 Yeah, it's because they don't want to lead. OK, and don't let Joe Biden's approach on Ukraine make

01:29:40.540 you think otherwise. OK, he has seen here a chance to, quote, lead a coalition across the country.

01:29:47.580 This is exactly how Obama operated. It's exactly how Biden operated. Lead from behind. Everything is done

01:29:54.740 within the auspices of multilateralism and, you know, letting your partners, if at all possible,

01:30:01.500 take the lead in certain scenarios so that you don't own it and you don't have to devote time to

01:30:07.000 it. Joe Biden's only interest, and I will say this is he's different from Obama this way. Joe Biden has

01:30:12.580 no interest really in foreign policy. He wants to care entirely about his domestic agenda. And to the

01:30:19.840 extent that he's been stuck with the Ukrainian problem, he's had to do it. But there's no difference

01:30:24.560 really between him and Obama in terms of the approach that they had, which is not Reagan's

01:30:29.680 approach, peace, their strength and being a leader in the world. It's just America as one among many

01:30:36.180 and America with other priorities. And China's watching that. Russia's watching that. Iran's

01:30:41.580 watching that. And that's a dangerous place to be. This was one of the interesting things of that

01:30:45.620 Iowa summit, because, as you know, on the subject of Ukraine, Trump, he wasn't there. But we know from

01:30:52.080 his previous statements and Tucker are very much more of the what are we doing in Ukraine? You know,

01:30:57.240 we have other priorities that we need to worry about. And some of these candidates got into it

01:31:01.340 with Tucker, like Mike Pence on. No, it's not an either or. Right. Because Tucker gave Pence a good

01:31:07.780 tough question on. Have you seen the state of American cities today? You know, they've all gone

01:31:12.460 precipitously down over the past four years and drugs and homeless, homelessness and crime.

01:31:16.780 Why wouldn't we be focused on that as opposed to Ukraine and sending more tanks there?

01:31:21.880 And Pence, in the longer answer, he's getting he's getting hit for having said that that's not my

01:31:27.120 concern. But if you look at the full context, he was saying my concern is not getting Ukraine more

01:31:31.840 tanks. My concern is trying to make it sound like we can't do both. We can do both. America can do both.

01:31:38.120 And the Republican Party doesn't really sound like that. Kim, today, the Republican Party,

01:31:42.500 if you look at the polls, they don't support Ukraine anymore. They don't really want us to

01:31:46.940 lead from the front on that particular war. They don't sound anything like Reagan. The party itself

01:31:53.580 right now, never mind the couple of leaders do. But what do you make of it? Yeah, it's so concerning

01:31:59.380 to me. And by the way, I actually partly blame Biden for this because he has so magnificently failed

01:32:05.400 to explain why Ukraine is in America's interest. He talks a lot about democracy and global values.

01:32:11.900 You know, do you realize that via our contributions to Ukraine, that we have done more to you to

01:32:18.580 degrade Russia's military, conventional military capacity than we've managed to do in decades and

01:32:24.100 at five percent of the cost, majorly undercutting one of our major adversaries in the world?

01:32:30.460 That is in America's interest. OK, it's in our interest to send a statement that we are not

01:32:36.580 going to stand by so that China doesn't get any ideas and Iran doesn't get any ideas. This is all

01:32:42.920 in keeping with us. And we need more Republican leaders who are making. That's why it's very

01:32:48.360 concerning to me. Donald Trump says, oh, I'll go in and I'll fix this in 24 hours. How are you going to

01:32:53.580 do that exactly? And the idea that we can't both walk and chew gum at the same time. What Reagan showed

01:33:01.780 us is that if we're not strong on the world, we are inviting more and more global troubles that

01:33:07.360 we will have to spend money on because we'll have to care about these crises around the globe,

01:33:13.720 which is less than that we then have to dedicate to our people back home. So, yes,

01:33:19.040 we absolutely must care about America's crumbling cities. But there should be no conflict between being

01:33:25.460 a strong America in the world, sending the message that we want a peaceful world, which then better

01:33:31.680 allows us to focus on the problems we have at home. It's a good point because Biden's sort of

01:33:38.160 a little bit pregnant on the Ukraine. You know, it's like he's not leading from the front. He's

01:33:43.440 like scared. He won't actually make the big, bold moves over there because he's worried he's going to

01:33:47.940 get hit politically. But he's in a lot more than a healthier proportion of Americans want. And that's

01:33:52.960 because he won't make the case. He's not able to. Let's be honest. On the Trump front, he did

01:33:58.600 actually for the first time, you know how he was like he made he made policies on like Iran when he

01:34:04.340 ran the first time promises. And now he made promises about ending the Ukraine war. But for

01:34:09.400 the first time, he really actually expanded on what he plans on doing to end Ukraine in a day,

01:34:14.520 the war with Maria Bartiromo yesterday. Here's what he said. It's not 16.

01:34:18.660 You said you could end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours. Yes. How would you do that?

01:34:24.880 I know Zelensky very well. I felt he was very honorable because when they asked him about the

01:34:30.040 phone call that I made, he said it was indeed. He said it was. He didn't even know what they were

01:34:34.900 talking about. He could have grandstanded. Oh, I felt threatened. Well, that's not going to be

01:34:38.560 enough for Putin to stop bombing. No, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that I know

01:34:42.760 Zelensky very well and I know Putin very well, even better. And I had a good relationship,

01:34:48.520 very good with both of them. I would tell Zelensky, no more. You got to make a deal. I

01:34:54.680 would tell Putin, if you don't make a deal, we're going to give him a lot. We're going to give more

01:34:58.920 than they ever got if we have to. I will have the deal done in one day, one day.

01:35:05.160 I know it sounds simplistic, Kim, but you got to admit, you listen to him. There's like,

01:35:10.980 there's some of you wondered, like, he might be able to. I don't know. He is a dealmaker. He's

01:35:16.400 always been very just part of you're like, maybe he really could do it. I don't know.

01:35:21.260 Well, it's possible. Although here's the thing that I think is kind of

01:35:24.280 interesting to me about him again is basically he's saying I'd call Putin. And if Putin didn't

01:35:29.280 do what I wanted him to do, I will majorly escalate our support for Ukraine, which is

01:35:37.520 something that he otherwise has suggested he didn't want to do. And I can see that as a threat

01:35:43.640 and that as a possibility. And I do agree that I don't think that Joe Biden has exerted the sort

01:35:49.760 of pressure on Putin that he should have over the years. I think that there's a lot more way we can be

01:35:55.080 pressing them and messages we should be sending them about our limits of our tolerance on his

01:36:00.380 behavior. So maybe there could be a more diplomatic way that we could have exerted more pressure here.

01:36:06.700 But the reality is to maybe, I guess, I don't know. All I do know, though, is that the cry from

01:36:12.480 Zelensky and Ukrainians is that they are not comfortable stopping this until they have at least

01:36:18.020 clawed back the land that Putin has taken in this most recent round. And that's before you put the

01:36:23.460 question of what he stole back in 2014 in the Crimea. Mm hmm. One other question about Ukraine,

01:36:30.520 Vivek Ramaswamy keeps saying, well, we're going to end we need to end this because one of the bad

01:36:38.520 things that's happening to the United States is China and Russia are cozying up. And so if we end

01:36:45.100 this, then that's going to stop. I don't know about that, Kim. I I understand the Reagan philosophy of

01:36:54.660 no will be the United States of America will lead from the front. We'll put an end to this. And then

01:37:01.540 China will have to deal with us because we're us because we're powerful because we're a much bigger

01:37:07.360 threat than Russia ever could be. And and they'll respect us. You know, they won't be like just

01:37:13.680 cutting and running. It basically is what Reagan would say is not going to make China and its

01:37:18.800 partnership with Russia. It's going to embolden them. You know, I talk about this in my book. If

01:37:25.020 you look at the specific dates, you can see Russia beginning to mass its troops along the Ukrainian

01:37:32.660 border as Joe Biden is withdrawing from Afghanistan. OK, then there is a straight line between that and

01:37:39.840 Putin's invasion. We sent a message when we withdrew from that country, which was we didn't want to be

01:37:46.300 engaged in any foreign entanglements. Joe Biden didn't have the stomach for it. Joe Biden wanted to get

01:37:52.100 out. And basically, Putin saw that as a reason to do this. The same thing will happen if we now

01:37:58.620 abandon Ukraine. China will view that as a message. Hmm. It's it's it's a sticky wicket over

01:38:05.000 there. But look, I what I love about this book is it talks about the comparisons and it does talk

01:38:09.900 about what the GOP message needs to be if they want similar results to the ones that Reagan achieved

01:38:16.540 in 1980. It's not just a gimme. It's not just going to happen. She goes into the activist judges and the

01:38:22.720 social policies and all of it. I think you'll find it absolutely fascinating. It's called The Biden

01:38:27.380 Malaise by Kimberly Strassel of The Wall Street Journal. How America Bounces Back from Joe Biden's

01:38:33.100 dismal repeat of the Jimmy Carter years. It's out tomorrow. Order today to help him out. Kim,

01:38:38.020 great to see you. Please come on whenever you can. Yes, absolutely. Thanks so much.

01:38:42.940 All right. We look forward to it tomorrow. We've got Chris Rufo back in the show. A lot to get to

01:38:46.800 with him. We'll see you then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.

01:38:57.380 Now streaming on Paramount Plus. Someone is trying to frame us. Until our names are cleared.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - July 17, 2023

Megyn on Trump Chat and Upcoming DeSantis Interview, and Ray Epps Questions, with Arthur Aidala, Mark Eiglarsh, and Kimberley Strassel ｜ Ep. 588

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