The Megyn Kelly Show - Megyn's Trump Interview Next Week, and Potential New Murdaugh Trial, with Ric Grenell, Mike Baker, Jonna Spilbor, and David Wohl

00:00:00.540 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.960 Hey, everyone. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'm Megyn Kelly, and we have a packed show for

00:00:17.120 you today. A Kelly's Court in just a bit. Big news on Hunter Biden. And in just a minute,

00:00:22.520 we have Rick Grinnell back with us. But I want to start today with a big announcement. Huge,

00:00:28.320 huge, you might say. Here at The Megyn Kelly Show, we've welcomed many of the 2024 contenders.

00:00:34.580 Vivek Ramaswamy has been on a bunch of times. Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Chris Christie. You may

00:00:39.720 remember my lengthy sit down just last month or late July with Governor Ron DeSantis. Even RFKJ has

00:00:46.760 been here since his announcement, as well as before. But next week, I'll be interviewing

00:00:52.260 former President Donald Trump. It will be my first interview with a former president in seven years.

00:00:58.600 And there is so much to get to. I'm really looking forward to this. It's going to be great.

00:01:03.980 It's going to be spicy and it's going to be tough, but it's going to be good. And hopefully we're both

00:01:09.060 going to enjoy it. I think you're all going to enjoy it a lot, too. We're going to have a lot of

00:01:14.020 time to get into a variety of topics in person, sitting down with him in person. And then we will

00:01:19.560 air it in full on Sirius XM Thursday, September 14th. OK, mark your calendars if you want to

00:01:26.900 listen to it live Thursday at noon, September 14th. It will, of course, then also become available a

00:01:33.540 little later in the day on YouTube, Rumble, Facebook and all podcast platforms, including

00:01:38.220 Apple and Spotify, Pandora, Stitcher, etc. I'm really looking forward to bringing you this one

00:01:43.600 and many more to come. I'm very glad that he agreed to do it. He's not saying yes to everyone.

00:01:50.320 And to his credit, you know, Donald Trump knows that I'm not I'm not somebody who suffers from

00:01:55.280 Trump derangement syndrome like the vast majority of people in the media. But I'm also not a sycophant,

00:02:01.720 so I'm not going to go in there and be a bootlicker. It's going to be fun and he can handle it

00:02:06.920 perfectly well. So looking forward to it. Hope you are to mark your calendar. And now Rick Grinnell,

00:02:12.860 who was a key part of Donald Trump's administration. He joins me live. Rick, great to see you. So I'm

00:02:18.780 excited for this. I think this is going to go great. What do you think?

00:02:21.480 Wow. September 14th. I just I just wrote it down. I think it will be fantastic. So many people are

00:02:27.780 going to be thinking about the last time you interviewed him. I had a flashback while you

00:02:32.460 were talking about being in your studio and Fox when we both worked at Fox. And that was during

00:02:39.100 the presidential. We had so many times where we talked about different issues with Trump. And I

00:02:44.740 think it's true. I think, you know, you were tough. And I think the way that you just said it is that

00:02:52.140 you're not a never Trumper and you're not a sycophant. And that's, I think, great. And, you know,

00:02:58.460 credit to Donald Trump. He's been doing interviews where he mixes it up and isn't afraid to get in

00:03:05.720 there. So he went on CNN, for God's sake. I mean, he's he's definitely not afraid to

00:03:09.940 town hall with Caitlin, the whole town hall. I'll tell you, it's been nuts because I saw Trump at

00:03:17.540 the Charlie Kirk Turning Point event in July and we hit it off. We had a nice sort of glad handing moment

00:03:23.860 and I talked about it on the show. So it was great to see him. And I talked about his. I mean,

00:03:27.660 there's no question he has a natural magnetism. Whether you love him or hate him, that is

00:03:31.380 indisputable. I'm sorry. It's just a fact. He walks into the room even before he was president,

00:03:36.060 but especially post. And there's an air that must be paid attention to. He's just that's just who he

00:03:42.640 is. It's a lifetime of celebrity and now becoming really the most famous man in the world. So I talked

00:03:48.680 about it on the show and said, I'm very glad that all that nonsense between us is water under the

00:03:53.000 bridge and we're just a normal journalist covering, you know, president or former president.

00:03:57.660 Situation. The left freaked out at those comments. Entire podcasts were devoted to those comments,

00:04:05.620 Rick. Like, oh, my God, what's happened to Megyn Kelly? She's bent the knee. They they need me to

00:04:12.180 hate him for some reason. They need they need as many sort of foils to Donald Trump as they can get.

00:04:19.160 And if they think you're one and you turn out not to be, they become apoplectic. It's just like

00:04:24.100 a robotic chip has malfunctioned. Look, I think they're apoplectic about everything you do.

00:04:30.060 They're always watching, you know, your your time at Fox or time at NBC. They're just, you know,

00:04:35.560 I always I was going to say something that that I would regret, actually. So I'm not going to say

00:04:41.260 it. Let me just say it this way. You you're smart. You know, I know you from a time personally when I

00:04:50.560 worked at Fox and and I know your heart and how kind you are. But that's not always what comes

00:04:56.940 through in in the media. They like to have a one dimensional Megyn Kelly. They also like to have a

00:05:03.400 one dimensional Donald Trump. I've worked for some big name politicians, Mitt Romney, John Bolton,

00:05:11.560 people who are never Trumpers now. And I know the dimensions of all of these people. I try as

00:05:20.140 somebody who was on the inside with people to not trash former bosses. Even if I disagree with them,

00:05:28.060 I try to, you know, be be more positive about it. And that means giving them more than a one dimensional

00:05:36.220 look. Right. The people who really know people try to give you stories and and make it more than just

00:05:42.140 black and white. But I always think with you, with Trump, with there's a lot of people that they just

00:05:48.360 try to make one dimensional. And I think it's it's really disingenuous. I will say this, though. I think

00:05:55.380 social media has really busted that ability of The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN to be able to

00:06:03.900 define somebody just with one dimension. Now you've got this long podcast. You've got the ability to

00:06:11.060 to have a whole bunch of conversations and to show who you are besides just a one dimension. Not

00:06:16.680 everybody is that lucky to be able to have that long conversation. But I think people who have been

00:06:24.560 in the media realize that it's really disingenuous what the media tries to do. And I put Trump in both

00:06:31.780 that category for sure with Trump. I mean, it's insane. I'll say this. Somebody I really like down at

00:06:37.920 the Jersey Shore, a woman I don't know well, but I see her in the store every year. And I love this

00:06:43.180 woman. She's a Democrat. She came over to me and she was upset after I said that thing on my show about

00:06:49.320 having seen Trump. And it went so well. And I was glad to see him. She was upset. She said, I don't

00:06:53.760 understand. You know, after the way he came after you, what happened with your family? Like, I don't

00:06:59.140 understand how you can be okay with him. And I said to her in my business, if you hold against

00:07:05.740 people, especially politicians who don't, who justifiably don't like the media, that's my role.

00:07:11.140 If you hold that against all those people, you're not going to have any connections,

00:07:15.860 any sources or anyone with whom you have a decent relationship. You know, you can't be fighting all

00:07:21.780 the time over big slights or small slights. And I think if I may, it's to my credit that I'm able to

00:07:29.300 put that shit behind me and move right on. Like that's a life coping skill that more people should

00:07:34.380 have, but especially journalists who too often can't stop making it about themselves.

00:07:41.940 Well, here, here's my problem. And, and I'll put you in the journalist category for this.

00:07:46.440 Um, you know, you, you all build a career out of criticizing people. And then the first time

00:07:53.080 you get criticized, they freak out. And that's my problem is, is that don't put yourself into the

00:07:59.840 public sphere of criticizing everybody else. If you can't take it yourself, including myself,

00:08:04.640 people who run for office, people who get politically appointed to office, people who are

00:08:09.040 leading the public journalists who are on TV. I mean, gone is the day that journalists just get to,

00:08:15.480 you know, sit behind a desk and their name is, is on a little print report and nobody knows who they

00:08:20.100 are. Now they all want, you know, Newsmax contracts or MSNBC contracts or Fox contracts.

00:08:27.060 And so if you're going to put yourself out there and you're going to be somebody who publicly criticizes

00:08:32.000 people, you better be able to take it. And I love to see reporters who write criticism. And then when

00:08:38.620 you criticize them on Twitter, they block you just like, I can't take one little criticism after I just

00:08:44.620 wrote a hole. I don't think I've ever blocked anybody on Twitter. I don't think unless Abigail

00:08:48.380 finding got on there and did it. I, I don't, I do not block people. Um, they may annoy me,

00:08:53.240 but I'm fine hearing dissenting points of view. Now, if you're like sexist Lee trolling me,

00:08:59.040 that kind of crap, you'll get muted. You'll get muted, but I would never give somebody the

00:09:02.940 satisfaction of blocking them. Why would I, it was, um, Ray Kelly, you know, uh, former police chief

00:09:08.940 in New York whose son, Greg Kelly is a friend of mine, probably yours too over at Newsmax.

00:09:13.160 And Ray always said, why would you do somebody the courtesy of telling them what you really think

00:09:16.800 about them? Someone you really don't like, why would you do them the courtesy of like showing

00:09:21.560 that they have this power of you? I love that advice. Okay. So let's talk Trump because,

00:09:27.880 and let's talk Biden because there's, there's news on both. I want to get to what Mike Pence is saying

00:09:32.240 about Donald Trump. It's extraordinary. Mike Pence is coming at Trump now and his sort of populism

00:09:36.080 in a way that completely ignores the fact that he was Trump's vice president.

00:09:41.140 He's coming at him. Like he's brand new to politics and gee, I stumbled upon this weird

00:09:45.280 populism. I can't support you or his vice president. I'll get to it. Got to start with

00:09:49.640 the Biden polls, CNN releasing a poll that led its own anchors to start a show this morning with

00:09:55.280 off when it comes to Joe Biden and these numbers, 67% believe the Democrats should nominate someone

00:10:03.940 other than Biden. That's up from 54% in March. Um, only 39% job approval rating. That's down from 41%

00:10:12.840 in July, which was already bad. Uh, it was 51%, by the way, in March of 21. So now it's now 39 fewer

00:10:19.780 than half of Americans believe Biden cares about people like them. Only 33% describe him as someone

00:10:26.460 they would be proud to have as president. And one quarter of the electorate, only 26% believe Biden

00:10:34.860 has the stamina and sharpness to serve effectively as president. That's down six points just from

00:10:40.980 March. These are stunning, stunningly bad numbers, Rick. Yeah, look, I'm the wrong person to ask this.

00:10:49.000 I've done seven presidential races. Um, I'm old and, uh, let me just say this. I don't think there's

00:10:56.980 a single time that I've been on a presidential race and I've done seven where we don't have a

00:11:03.560 moment where the media say, Oh, I hate both people. I wish somebody else was running. Uh, you know,

00:11:08.140 the, both candidates are bad and polls about, you know, both of them are bad. Look, it's the system

00:11:12.820 that we have. Um, I think Joe Biden is terrible. I think, uh, he's going to lose on gas prices alone.

00:11:20.020 And yesterday, you know, he's taking away even more of, uh, the, the supply. And so what, what I

00:11:29.500 believe is that people feel this people feel this because they have to, you know, gas up every single

00:11:36.740 week. They go to the grocery store and these are just the fundamental issues they, they see. Now the

00:11:42.020 media likes to, you know, try to make it about trans issues or abortion and all of that. I actually

00:11:47.020 think that, that people are more concerned about their everyday, uh, ability to pay for gas, pay for

00:11:53.760 groceries and to pay for, um, you know, their kids, uh, you know, soccer practice and the everyday

00:12:01.160 things that people are supposed to pay for. So I think he's done. Um, and I'm somebody who believes

00:12:08.160 that the Democrats who are so calculating and so United will wait until it's, uh, you know, two

00:12:15.180 weeks before the convention. Um, and then suddenly something will happen to Joe Biden and he won't be

00:12:21.920 able to continue and they'll take it to the convention and there'll be a fight with Gavin Newsom and the

00:12:29.220 vice president. And lo and behold, we better come up with a third person and the United, uh, the unity

00:12:35.860 candidate will be Gretchen Whitmer from, from Michigan and she'll make it all about abortion.

00:12:41.220 That's what I think is going to happen. Um, she won big, she made it about abortion. They want to put

00:12:48.020 the first woman president. They're not going to go with a straight white male again. They'll get,

00:12:52.940 they'll get completely crucified. If Gavin Newsom is the, is the, is the guy. And I'll say this lastly,

00:12:59.140 I live in California. I know Gavin Newsom. Uh, I relish seeing him in a swing state. He's going

00:13:07.280 to get slaughtered. This whole idea that somehow he is electable is a joke. Uh, he doesn't even work

00:13:14.620 in swing counties in California. They keep them away from San Fernando Valley. They keep them away

00:13:19.940 from Palm Springs. He doesn't go to places that are not hardcore left because from San Francisco to LA

00:13:26.420 and little parts of San Diego. And that's it. That's so funny because I really think the love

00:13:32.700 affair with Gavin Newsom starts and ends with his hair. They're like, he's good looking. He's got

00:13:37.640 nice hair. And then if you actually take a dive into California politics and the policies that he's

00:13:43.440 signed off on and push and you recoil like the, the very Midwesterners they might get if they go with

00:13:50.340 Gretchen Whitmer. I love this theory. This is actually very interesting to me. Would hate what Gavin

00:13:55.140 Newsom is doing to children in California, parental rights. Um, I mean, we could go down the list,

00:14:00.180 but that's how is it? I don't know if you know the answer to this, but is it as easy? Would it be

00:14:04.860 as easy as at the democratic national convention? Biden says, thanks for the memories, but I'm bad.

00:14:10.920 I'm bailing. And then would you please put your support behind Gretchen? And then the Democrats

00:14:15.180 just vote on her. Like it can all happen right then and there. Of course, these people are,

00:14:20.040 are not interested in transparency or an actual election. They are interested in keeping their

00:14:26.220 power. So what's going to happen? I look, I believe that this is absolutely going to happen.

00:14:31.180 They realize they cannot put Joe Biden forward, but they don't want to have a messy primary.

00:14:36.600 Uh, they'll spend a lot of money and it'll be crazy. The elites are just going to pick. I mean,

00:14:40.820 they do this all the time at their convention. They shut people up. Remember the famous, uh,

00:14:45.420 moment at the convention. I was there in Charlotte when, uh, mayor Villaraigosa was up on the platform

00:14:51.620 and they were voting on something and it was the eyes, it was a vocal vote and it was about Israel,

00:14:57.760 uh, versus, uh, Palestine. And immediately, uh, the whole crowd was like pro Palestinian. And he was

00:15:05.640 like, Oh, the eyes have it for Israel. Moved on. So blatantly, obviously a lie, but the media,

00:15:14.140 you know, they just dutifully regurgitate everything. Um, so yeah, they're going to do

00:15:18.580 this. Um, the elites will get together at the convention and they'll spin it as like, Oh, it was

00:15:23.180 too late. And, and so this is the rules of the convention. We got to come together and then

00:15:28.580 they'll just, um, hoodwink everybody. Hmm. Okay. Now you say probably, uh, they, they recognize

00:15:34.580 Kamala Harris's weaknesses as well. And that's, that's why they'd go with somebody like from the

00:15:38.180 Midwest, which is Michigan's a very important state, Wisconsin, very important state. And all the swing

00:15:42.740 states are a little bit more moderate than the politics of Kamala Harris, who was like a Gavin

00:15:46.440 Newsom jr would, would support. Um, there is however, Kamala Harris's incredible oratory abilities,

00:15:53.720 her rhetoric, and it's inspiration to millions of Americans. There's a new chapter on that front

00:15:59.180 today. Rick Grinnell, here she is inspiring us all about unclear. Take a listen.

00:16:07.840 I feel very strongly about, um, the importance as a general matter of engaging in U S policy as it

00:16:18.720 relates to foreign affairs in a way that we pay attention, of course, to the immediate concerns

00:16:26.220 and threats if they exist, but that we also pay attention to 10, 20, 30 years down the line

00:16:34.580 and what we are developing now that will be to the benefit of our country.

00:16:40.980 What? So she can't. When I see that as a Californian, it's, it's so obvious to me what's

00:16:50.320 happening in California, Kamala Harris, uh, Gavin Newsom, I will put HHS secretary, um, Javier Becerra,

00:16:57.420 all of these Democrats in California rise to the national level, completely unvetted.

00:17:05.140 The LA times has never vetted these people. No one in Sacramento is vetting them except for the

00:17:09.680 California globe, which is now emerged as an amazing publication. If you really want to see

00:17:14.420 something in California. So go to the California globe, but everybody else is literally just, uh,

00:17:21.200 singing the democratic, uh, song book. And these politicians, they get on the national stage,

00:17:28.040 Kamala Harris literally went from San Francisco to Sacramento to Washington, 100% unvetted. Nobody

00:17:36.060 ever asked her tough questions. So these Democrats in California arrive in Washington and they think

00:17:42.020 that, you know, can I say it? Their shit doesn't stink. And all of a sudden they, uh, face some scrutiny

00:17:50.680 and they collapse. And this is the phenomenon of the California media.

00:17:57.420 She's a walking air sandwich. That's it. There's no substance. I just, I looked,

00:18:03.040 I had them printed out so I could see if I could understand it. I feel very strongly about the

00:18:08.240 importance as a general matter of engaging in us policy as it relates to foreign affairs. I'm already

00:18:13.740 lost, already lost in a way that we pay attention, of course, to the immediate concerns and threats.

00:18:19.600 If they exist, but that we also pay attention to 10, 20, 30 years down the line and what we are

00:18:25.160 developing now, that will be to the benefit of our country. Nothing was said, literally nothing.

00:18:31.020 They know she can't do it. Okay. So from one vice president to another, Mike Pence in the news

00:18:36.560 today, he made a speech and look, it's a speech that reflects what a lot of people within the Republican

00:18:42.660 party believe, uh, which is that there's a line, there's a hard line to be drawn between sort of

00:18:48.040 an old conservatism and the new populism that Trump brought to bear. As I point out, it's a very bizarre

00:18:53.980 point to be making so strongly when he was Trump's vice president two minutes ago, but Mike Pence

00:19:00.440 making clear in no uncertain terms that he thinks the party is on the road to ruin. If they stick with

00:19:08.000 Trump, take a listen. It's not four. We've come to a Republican time for choosing. Will we be the party

00:19:15.080 of conservatism or will we follow the siren song of populism unmoored to conservative principles?

00:19:25.800 The future of this movement in this party belongs to one or the other, not both. It takes the form of

00:19:33.420 what's known as populism rather than progressivism, but make no mistake about it.

00:19:41.660 Those ideologies are fellow travelers on the same road to ruin. The truth is a Republican party did not

00:19:48.540 begin on a golden escalator in 2015.

00:19:55.660 Long before that day, it was forged and defended and defined

00:19:58.700 as the conservative party in America. And so it should ever be.

00:20:06.300 What do you make of it?

00:20:08.780 It's hard for me because, um, I, you know, I, I want to stay positive towards Mike Pence. Um,

00:20:17.340 certainly, you know, as a vice president, I think he, he did a lot of good for president Trump. Um,

00:20:23.980 but what I don't understand is now his path. I get that he's trying to challenge Donald Trump,

00:20:31.420 but that feels that whole speech right there just doesn't feel real. It doesn't feel consistent.

00:20:38.300 Um, from, from my perspective, that feels like consultants are saying to him,

00:20:44.060 you're not really taking off, you need to have a different path, uh, go back to, you know,

00:20:50.540 trying to be the hardcore conservative. But I would argue that what the Trump Pence administration

00:20:58.460 did was really, uh, take populism and make it conservative. And I love that. I mean, Donald Trump

00:21:06.140 has redefined the Republican party forever. I believe that in 15, 20, 25 years, uh, we will

00:21:15.660 still be saying to people who who's the Trump candidate, who's the America first MAGA candidate

00:21:21.660 in these races that will galvanize people who really believe in America first. And look, I've

00:21:28.380 written on this subject, uh, to, to just to get intellectual for a second. Um, I've written on the

00:21:34.700 idea that America first policies and populism are actually conservative principles. I wrote a very

00:21:43.740 long piece for Carnegie, Carnegie Mellon university still up on their, their website. You can Google

00:21:49.260 Carnegie Mellon and Richard Grinnell, uh, and find that piece. There's probably a lot of hit jobs on

00:21:55.420 me when I was there. So you have to look, but there's a, there's a piece that I wrote about America

00:22:00.460 first and what it means to populism versus conservatism. And, and I think Donald Trump

00:22:07.020 thread threaded that needle perfectly and will forever define the Republican party as a party.

00:22:14.300 And what does that mean, Megan? That means going for the union voters, going for everyday Americans,

00:22:20.380 not the elites. Now we're having this discussion. I think Pence is right about this. We are having

00:22:25.660 this discussion that many of the elites, um, I saw a mutual friend of ours, uh, kind of defending

00:22:32.780 elites yesterday and going after populists. Um, but I think that this is a, uh, an argument that's

00:22:39.980 happening. He's clearly taken a different side. I think that's a dead end because the Republican

00:22:45.900 party has been redefined towards populists who are conservative, like working class families.

00:22:53.420 I'll finish with this first and second generation Americans are the most vocal supporters of Donald

00:23:00.780 Trump. You ask yourself, why is that? Why are first and second generation Americans? Why is,

00:23:04.780 why do we have, um, a lot of Latinos that are switching over to Trump? Uh, a lot of people who came

00:23:11.500 from, uh, countries that were fascist. Um, and the reason why is they came here to live the American dream.

00:23:18.620 They love capitalism. They love human rights. They love the rule of law and they're watching

00:23:23.740 our media completely act like their media where from the countries that they left and they are

00:23:30.060 canaries in the coal mine for the rest of us saying you're losing this American dream. You're losing

00:23:36.060 America. That is a populist group that I think is now conservative Republican Trump supporters. I

00:23:45.340 never want to see those people leave. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. And the economic policies

00:23:49.980 are in large part what, what pulled them over. Um, and the, even the New York times has a poll out

00:23:54.860 now showing how Biden is hemorrhaging support among the groups you just mentioned. And it's why the

00:24:02.460 times concludes that despite Trump being under four indictments and so on, he's tied pretty much at

00:24:08.780 worst in most of the head to head matchups with Biden in many Trump is ahead and the times is

00:24:14.380 scratching its head, trying to figure out how can this be. And their conclusion is right along the

00:24:18.860 lines of what you just said. They're, uh, writing up there, Nate Cohen, writing up, um, consistent

00:24:24.300 signs of erosion in black and Hispanic support for Joe Biden. Biden's unperforming underperforming

00:24:31.340 among nonwhite voters in the latest national polls over the last year. He said, he's saying this is a trend,

00:24:37.340 uh, looking at where Biden was in 2020 with those voters, 70 plus percent with nonwhite voters.

00:24:44.940 Biden was now it's 53% to 28% for Donald Trump and 28% may not sound like a lot, but it is,

00:24:53.740 it is a lot for a Republican, uh, presidential candidate among these groups that have historically

00:24:58.540 gone almost unanimously for Dems. And they point out what you just pointed out, which is, um,

00:25:05.260 the, the gap is at its worst. When you get to those who are nonwhite and lack a four year college

00:25:13.500 degree among those who have a college education, still speaking about minorities, Biden has a 61 to

00:25:20.180 23 lead over Trump. But when you get down to minorities who don't have a college education,

00:25:26.500 his lead drops to 49 to 31, uh, writing that if this gap persists until the election, it will raise

00:25:33.400 the possibility that the political realignment unleashed by Mr. Trump's brand of conservative

00:25:38.000 populism has spread to erode the political loyalties of working class voters of all races who were drawn

00:25:47.120 to the Democrats, you know, before by material interests in an era in an earlier era of politics.

00:25:53.160 The times is just now getting this Rick. I mean, I think many of us have seen this for a long,

00:25:57.040 long time. Yeah. Look, I think the trajectory has been there from the,

00:26:00.840 from 2017 when Trump took over, uh, they, it's just a shock, right? There's a lingering effect

00:26:07.180 by the time people realize, Oh wow, he really is for the working man. And remember the media has been

00:26:13.640 completely against him and, and trying to go against that argument. But if you look at the trend,

00:26:19.300 the trajectory, it is absolutely going in that direction. This is not new and it will continue

00:26:26.120 as more people begin to understand the policies. And I will say this too, Joe Biden helps us because

00:26:34.540 when he came into office and started a war and had, you know, terrible relations around the world,

00:26:40.800 there's not a single, uh, region of this world that is better off under Joe Biden, uh, grocery store

00:26:46.820 prices, gas prices, as I talked about, all of those things are convincing people that Trump's policies

00:26:52.280 were way better. And, and I'll finish with this. Remember just, you know, if you take Phoenix and

00:26:59.220 Atlanta and Philadelphia and Milwaukee, four cities, and you look at what the numbers were in terms of

00:27:07.900 Biden Trump votes, it was a sliver. Now, you know, we can come up with three or four reasons of why that

00:27:15.880 will be different in 2024, but I'm convinced going back to our pre previous conversation that the

00:27:22.980 Democrats see this, the media sees this and that they must dump Joe Biden, but they don't want to

00:27:29.000 have a crazy primary season. And so they're trying to figure out what to do. Uh, and, and, you know,

00:27:36.100 we'll see what happens right before the convention. Well, to me, the most interesting thing about those

00:27:40.320 that New York times report is that Mike Pence doesn't appear to have read it. You know, if

00:27:45.440 like this battle he's framing, which is a real battle, he doesn't frame it incorrectly entirely,

00:27:50.340 right? That the Republican party is made up of at least two warring factions, the more establishment

00:27:55.940 GOP and the more populist MAGA brand, uh, and even beyond just core MAGA, just the more populist

00:28:01.500 brand of policies that Trump brought in that even non core MAGA supported. Um, but what the times

00:28:07.760 report shows us is the populist brand is resonating with an entirely new brand of, uh, voters who have

00:28:15.920 become critical to the Republican coalition. And maybe you get back some of the chamber of commerce

00:28:21.140 Republicans or the suburban soccer moms, if you abandon it, I don't know. Uh, but this is an important

00:28:27.340 group that nobody ever thought was gettable on the right. And I don't know how Mike Pence accounts for

00:28:33.120 that in, in his argument about where the party should go. All right, wait, let me, let me turn the page

00:28:37.020 because Jim Messina, who ran Barack Obama's campaign, his reelection campaign, he spoke to

00:28:42.600 Politico and he's saying that the Democrats need to chill out. Biden's got this. He's like, I see

00:28:49.160 the warning signs that you're worried about. I see. And we have to worry about like third party

00:28:53.240 candidate, Dem spoilers. Uh, but the economic fundamentals are strong saying commentator,

00:28:59.680 commentator, commentators predicted a recession that never came. And that the white house still has

00:29:06.340 nine months to change bad perceptions about the economy because voters views about the economy

00:29:12.200 are only baked in by the June prior to the November election. He talked about abortion being a key

00:29:17.420 motivating issue. You, you recognize that too. Mentioned governor Whitmer Whitmer, two thirds of

00:29:22.440 Americans, he says would opt to protect the right of abortion in their state's constitution. If a state

00:29:26.660 held a vote that works for us, the Dems. Uh, and then he says Biden's path to victory is centered

00:29:31.920 around seven key States and says the last two elections were dangerously close, but he still

00:29:37.300 likes their party, their, their party's chances, Nevada, Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan, Georgia,

00:29:43.000 Pennsylvania, North Carolina. Do you agree? Those are the States. And the question I have for you is

00:29:48.440 what about Trump and the independence in those States and the soccer mom Republicans who voted

00:29:56.220 for someone other than Trump in those States. So first of all, let me just say Jim Messina's

00:30:02.320 personal economic indicator is that Biden must stay in office because he's making a lot of money.

00:30:07.740 And so these swampy are going to want the guy that they can control. That's point one second. And that

00:30:14.120 list, did you read Wisconsin? I don't know if that was one of the same. Yeah. Yeah. It's basically the

00:30:19.800 Southwest, Nevada and Arizona, upper Midwest, Wisconsin, Michigan, and the Eastern seaboard, uh,

00:30:25.340 going downward, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia. So no, I disagree on North Carolina. I

00:30:31.600 think, uh, I think that's solid red notice that they didn't say Ohio or Florida. They're giving up,

00:30:36.140 uh, which I love. Um, but, um, here is, here is the, uh, the situation in our primary. Um, we've got a lot

00:30:46.060 of people who you, you reference Pence. I would point to DeSantis. We've got a lot of people in the

00:30:53.220 Republican primary that are dialing back a lot of these really good policies from president Trump.

00:30:58.820 Um, you've got, uh, you know, DeSantis pushing a six week abortion ban. You've got DeSantis, uh,

00:31:05.640 with, uh, you know, crossing the line of under the age of 18 on trans issues and really going after

00:31:12.660 gay people. I'll have that debate all day long. What he did in that video was, uh, completely

00:31:18.900 homophobic, terrible dialing us back. And he lost a lot of suburban women. Um, I will remind our party

00:31:27.580 that, uh, when you have a problem with suburban women, um, suburban women, uh, historically have

00:31:35.880 been wildly supportive of gay conservatives. They're gay friends. Uh, 40% of the log cabin

00:31:43.480 membership are straight women. They want to see if you're kind. They want to see if you can, uh,

00:31:50.160 talk about these issues differently. Log cabin has a under 18 over 18 policy. When it comes to trans,

00:31:56.740 you're under the age of 18, protect children. Don't make children get, uh, tattoos or allow children to

00:32:03.440 get tattoos or, uh, surgeries or, uh, blockers for their hormones. But if you're over the age of 18 and

00:32:11.280 you're an adult, knock yourself out, uh, you know, the reality is, is that we have to have a society

00:32:16.700 where we allow adults to live their lives as long as you're not hurting somebody else. And so, uh, I

00:32:22.860 think that that's the policy that, uh, President Trump absolutely, uh, had in his last, uh, administration.

00:32:32.060 And he is showing to be somebody who is not taking the bait on these radical policies. Um, so, uh,

00:32:40.040 suburban women see this and, and if anything, the, the Republican primary is absolutely helping

00:32:45.580 Republican conservative. What's radical about the DeSantis agenda? What's radical about the DeSantis

00:32:51.500 agenda? Well, look, I think go take that video that he did. He was literally making fun of Donald

00:32:58.440 Trump for having a speech after the Pulse nightclub. There's a clip in there, uh, for,

00:33:05.860 for having a speech trying to say that, uh, gays and lesbians should be protected. And he made that

00:33:12.540 clear. I will do everything in my power to protect our LG BTQ citizens. If Caitlyn Jenner were to walk

00:33:23.920 into Trump tower and want to use the bathroom, you would be fine with her using any bathroom she

00:33:30.040 chooses. That is correct. In the future, can transgender women compete in this universe? Yes.

00:33:36.500 There's also parts of that video that he pushed out there, uh, from the log cabin, uh, annual dinner

00:33:47.920 where, uh, Ronna Romney said, we're going to outreach to gays and lesbians who are conservative.

00:33:54.960 Um, there, there's a whole bunch in that video that crosses the line. That wasn't just about

00:34:00.120 protecting children under the age of 18. That was going after gay adults. That's unacceptable.

00:34:04.840 I've worked way too hard in, in my career to allow a presidential candidate to dial us back like

00:34:11.980 that. I believe that Ron DeSantis ruined his chances for 2028. Nobody wants to see a homophobic,

00:34:19.460 uh, take over the, the Republican party again. And I know I'm going to get attacked for this,

00:34:25.160 but the reality is, is that he was wrong. And I hear very clearly from the, uh, gay supporters of

00:34:32.340 Ron DeSantis, that that was a mistake that they, they're trying to dial that back. That Casey DeSantis

00:34:37.660 was furious about it. All of these things. Well then speak up, say that it was a mistake, say that

00:34:42.840 it was wrong, but I'm not going to sit back and allow this migration and thank God for Donald Trump

00:34:48.500 and Melania Trump who also are not going to let us go there. Hmm. I mean, he, we now know that his

00:34:55.220 campaign was behind that ad that they approved it, but they said they weren't. Remember they said

00:35:00.780 they, they, they, that's right. That's true. Um, they, to me, that ad overall seemed aimed at

00:35:08.500 the trans community and the push for trans rights and suggesting Donald Trump had been

00:35:13.260 an early leader and standing up for trans rights, uh, saying Caitlyn Jenner could use the women's

00:35:19.020 bathroom and, uh, trans women could use, could be in his beauty pageants. That seems what he was

00:35:25.760 focused on. When I look at his actual policies, I don't see anti-gay. I mean, I see somebody who's

00:35:30.920 trying, like you said, to, to protect children from having this stuff come into the classroom

00:35:35.480 agendas, which I think you agree with. Um, but apart from the ad, which I I'll accept your position

00:35:41.800 as a gay man was offensive to you. Is there a policy that he's pushed that you think is a problem or

00:35:48.020 radical? Look, I would broaden it out. It's not just offensive to gay men. Uh, it's offensive to

00:35:53.780 suburban women. And this is what we were talking about. Uh, there, there are a lot of women that

00:35:57.860 look at that and they just say it's mean spirited. Okay. I get it. You made that. But what, what in

00:36:02.340 terms of, I'm looking for what's, what's he done in Florida at, cause he's been there, you know,

00:36:06.480 as a governor since 18 or proposing now that you think is radical. Well, well, first of all,

00:36:12.240 what I'm not in, in Florida, so I'm not going to be able to give you any specific Florida

00:36:17.600 policies. I am going to be able to give you specific, uh, rhetoric. And I think that his

00:36:22.880 rhetoric on the campaign trail has crossed the lines from protecting children into going after

00:36:30.460 gay adults. Uh, and, and look, what else besides the ad, I think it's rhetoric and a lot of speeches

00:36:38.860 and, and, uh, a lot of times when he's out there, he crosses the line, um, when he's talking about

00:36:47.100 these issues, he doesn't just leave it as children. He doesn't make it clear that he's

00:36:51.740 just trying to protect under the age of 18 children. It, you get the impression in the,

00:36:58.080 uh, general words that he uses that he has a real problem with trans adults and gay adults.

00:37:07.120 He's not making a question. Let me ask you a follow-up on that because I've listened to him

00:37:11.340 too. One of the things he says, like he gave an interview to Benny Johnson and he said,

00:37:15.460 a man cannot become a woman period. That's, that's nonsense. They cannot. So, I mean,

00:37:20.300 I was like right on. Yes. Agreed. And he's also, when it comes to adults, trying to keep

00:37:25.440 men who are opposing as women out of our spaces. So yes, he's very focused on the children,

00:37:30.600 but he's also with adults. He doesn't want to see males coming into women's spaces,

00:37:35.460 even at the adult level. So is that something that you agree with? I feel like you would agree

00:37:40.120 with that. Yeah, of course. I don't want to see, uh, biological men competing in women's sports.

00:37:46.120 Neither does Caitlyn Jenner. Um, I think there's a difference between you're just, you're detecting

00:37:52.060 like a, uh, a belief of his that you feel, you feel like there's a hatred there or a, uh, a bias.

00:37:58.080 No, I don't, I disagree. I don't think it's just a feeling. I think that it's much more than a

00:38:03.080 feeling. It's his own words. Um, he has not done a very good job of trying to make it clear that

00:38:08.820 adults get to be adults and, and choices that, uh, that they make, he may not agree with,

00:38:14.340 but there's a difference between, um, saying, I don't want biological men in women's sports,

00:38:19.040 and I don't want them in bathrooms, which I think, uh, most people agree with. I think that's an

00:38:24.400 overwhelming belief, but you need, you have a responsibility when you're talking about these

00:38:30.960 issues to make clear that, uh, people as adults get to make choices that you may not agree with.

00:38:37.560 Otherwise, if you don't make clear, if you don't make that clear, then you're going to look like

00:38:43.340 a bigot. You're going to look like a homophobe. You're going to look like a hater. You're going

00:38:47.060 to look intolerant. And that's where he is, to be honest. And I think a lot of, uh, women, uh, feel

00:38:54.420 that. I will go to my grave saying that the reason why Ron DeSantis imploded is because in the

00:39:02.840 beginning, all of, and I know a lot of these donors, a lot of them from California who jumped

00:39:07.600 on the bandwagon of, of supporting DeSantis, they did it because they thought, oh, here's a guy who's

00:39:13.700 just, you know, common sense going to stick to economics. And then he went into social policy

00:39:19.700 that was way too conservative and they became uncomfortable. He imploded because they got to

00:39:26.840 know him. And I don't know if it's his advisors or if they regret that, but, um, what would you say

00:39:33.560 is the reason that Ron DeSantis completely imploded? He, he was skyrocketing. And then I think it's that,

00:39:41.280 that video where people saw him as a radical social policy person who really, you know, left,

00:39:49.020 left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. And, and we saw, uh, a lot of donors dial back

00:39:56.240 and leave them. I don't, I think Ron DeSantis is not a very strong retail politician,

00:40:02.740 even though he's a very smart policy guy. And I think he'd be a great president. I do.

00:40:09.180 Um, I just think it doesn't come naturally to him. He doesn't have that natural, forgive me,

00:40:13.440 Governor DeSantis, charisma that somebody like a Trump has. It's very hard to get any oxygen or

00:40:20.980 attention or resonance when Trump is in the race. Go ahead. Yeah. I would push back on that because

00:40:26.760 he's been governor for four years. He was a congressman. We, everybody knew that he didn't

00:40:30.740 have a lot of charisma. A lot of donors met with them. And I know they would walk out and they'd say,

00:40:35.200 Oh, he, he, he's not very personable. He didn't ask about me. And, uh, you know, he's, he's boring.

00:40:40.420 I mean, there was all of that beforehand, but he still got the excitement of, uh, you know,

00:40:47.440 running for president and, and raised a lot of money from donors. And I think the more donors

00:40:53.100 got to know that he was a radical social policy person that they didn't like it. And, you know,

00:40:59.920 our party has changed. Our party has completely moved. And I'll finish with this. There's not a

00:41:04.460 single elected Republican in Washington that could come out and be anti-gay and survive.

00:41:09.900 I think that. Well, thank God. Yeah. Uh, you, we've come a long way. I am one of those

00:41:18.180 suburban women who supports the gays and gay rights. Uh, but the LGB needs to separate from the T

00:41:25.840 because there are different issues down there in the other corner. Rick Grinnell,

00:41:29.760 always a pleasure. Thanks for being here. Thanks Megan. All right. Up next Kelly's court. Have you

00:41:35.600 heard what's happening in the Alec Murdoch case? Oh M G that guy legitimately might be getting a new

00:41:42.160 trial. We'll talk about it next. Kelly's court is back in session and the docket is jam packed.

00:41:51.840 Let's get right to it because the case of Alec Murdoch is imploding. He was the South Carolina

00:41:57.640 lawyer convicted of murdering his wife and 19 year old son. Well, there is a very decent chance

00:42:04.700 he could be getting a new trial. Unbelievable. This stuff never, it never resonates. It's always

00:42:09.480 like, Oh sure. You want a new trial? Listen up. Uh, that's not necessarily this case.

00:42:14.520 John is billboard is a criminal defense attorney and founding attorney of John is billboard law.

00:42:18.740 And David wall is a criminal defense attorney. John, David, welcome back to the show. We've been

00:42:22.740 doing Kelly's court together for some 20 years now feels like at least 15. Um, and this one is,

00:42:28.160 I mean, forgive the salacious stuff, but it's juicy. It's juicy. Um, what's happened and jump in

00:42:34.680 if I get it wrong is the clerk of court, the woman who read the verdict, the woman who kind of manages

00:42:40.760 the jury and is this sort of top administrative person behind the scenes during the trial is in a

00:42:46.120 whole lot of trouble. The defense lawyers found three jurors, two who actually rendered the verdict

00:42:52.280 or part of the verdict and one who got bounced off of the case. The last day of the trial for alleged

00:42:56.980 misconduct have signed sworn affidavits saying that she, the clerk behaved inappropriately that

00:43:06.840 she tried to influence the verdict that she tried to caution them not to believe Alec Murdoch when he took

00:43:14.880 the stand that she got misrepresented. The one bounced jurors alleged misconduct. And the reason

00:43:23.220 she allegedly worked to get that person bounced was because she, the clerk sent that the soon to

00:43:28.720 be bounced juror was in favor of the defense and that she, the clerk wanted defense friendly jurors

00:43:35.580 off. And there's be one thing, John, if it were like the defense saying, I think the clerk is bad,

00:43:41.400 but the defense has three signed affidavits that doesn't make them unassailable, but three signed

00:43:46.360 affidavits from jurors. What do you make of it? Megan, where do we start with this? Because I am,

00:43:53.280 I'm infuriated and it doesn't matter whether you think Murdoch is guilty or innocent. That's not what

00:43:58.800 this is about. This is about the sanctity of the procedure of our system of jurisprudence. You know,

00:44:05.680 I want to know. So, oh, okay. I'm not going to get mad at the jurors for coming forward now, but I do

00:44:11.480 have questions. If you see something, say something. Why not during the actual process? Why do you wait

00:44:18.540 for a person to get- They don't know. She's like the boss of them in there, Jonna. They're probably

00:44:22.080 terrified of this woman. And I get it. And that's a problem. That's a problem because they don't feel

00:44:27.700 safe coming forward during the actual process. And if she had not written this book, and from what I

00:44:33.680 understand, it's not a great book. If she had not written it, they might not have come forward still.

00:44:39.120 And think about that. Think about how that would have gone under the radar. And this person would

00:44:44.380 not really have had a fair trial. Like this is, this is so sensational. It's not funny. It could,

00:44:50.120 I mean, I might be getting ahead of myself. Could this change the whole jury system going forward?

00:44:55.640 How do we know when you have these high profile trials? I've said it before. When jurors can make

00:45:01.280 money off being a juror, if a clerk can make money off being a clerk, doing their job, you invite this.

00:45:09.300 What are we going to do about that long-term? But for right now, Murdoch definitely deserves a

00:45:14.420 hearing. I can't see a judge denying a hearing. And this hearing very well may be successful. And

00:45:20.160 there's going to be a ripple effect after this, as there should be. I'm in sense.

00:45:25.300 And you know, it's like, so the clerk wrote a book, her name is Becky Hill. She wrote a book

00:45:29.660 that was apparently self-published and talked about her, her experiences with the case. And

00:45:35.580 reportedly it was, or according to the defense lawyers, it was allegations in that book or claims

00:45:40.420 that led the jurors to get ticked off about the way she was describing the behind the scenes goings on.

00:45:45.280 And they came forward reluctantly, but they came forward to say, Becky Hill's full of shit. And by

00:45:51.120 the way, we were manipulated by this inappropriate woman behind the scenes. Here is Jim Griffin,

00:45:58.000 one of Murdoch's defense attorneys on the allegations they're making against the clerk on Tuesday.

00:46:03.400 Saw 12.

00:46:04.980 That the clerk of court would go in to the sanctity of the jury room before he testified and tell the

00:46:11.180 jurors, don't be fooled by his testimony. Watch out for his body language. And if that is true,

00:46:16.920 which we have every reason to believe that it is, and no reason to believe it is not,

00:46:20.900 there's no choice but the courts to grant a new trial.

00:46:25.320 David, he, well, I mean, he's right. She said to the jurors, don't be fooled by him. I mean,

00:46:32.880 before he took the stand. Yeah, Megan. I mean, if that happened or even something close to that

00:46:39.900 happened, that's jury intimidation. And in all 50 states, that in and of itself is a crime,

00:46:46.500 which is going to make it difficult when they have an evidentiary hearing for a new trial. And

00:46:52.540 the defense calls Becky Hill to the stand and she takes the fifth, which I assume she's going to do.

00:47:00.640 That alone will prompt the judge to grant a new trial. I mean, this is something that you might

00:47:05.620 expect to take place in a banana republic somewhere in the third world. But if this

00:47:10.340 actually happened, Megan, the only person who's supposed to be having contact with the jury

00:47:14.500 is the court bailiff. And the court bailiff will lead the jury from the courtroom to the deliberation

00:47:21.280 room, lead them from the courtroom out to their cars, or during deliberation, he'll get a note from

00:47:27.240 the jury if they have questions or they have concerns, or there's some kind of problem in

00:47:31.840 deliberation. The court bailiff is the only person that has contact with him. For the clerk to have

00:47:37.000 that kind of contact, any kind of contact is inappropriate. So yes, if there's even a fraction

00:47:43.320 of what is claimed that took place, there will be a new trial. And, you know, we may have to do this

00:47:51.560 whole thing all over again, which will definitely inure to the benefit of Alec Murdoch, who was surprised

00:48:01.540 by a couple of things at the trial. We can go through it and we will. We'll take a quick pause

00:48:05.320 before we do a squeeze in a break for Sirius XM. John and David, stay with me.

00:48:15.260 All right, so let's get into some more about what they're alleging this woman does,

00:48:19.700 did this Becky Hill. By the way, just in case the audience is curious, this is Becky Hill on her

00:48:25.380 post verdict media tour. So you have a sense of what she looks and sounds like.

00:48:30.480 I'm the one that read the verdict of Alec Murdoch. And I was a little, my breath was knocked out for

00:48:36.960 a moment. But then I have to tell myself that to treat this just like any other trial, any other

00:48:42.900 verdict that I have to read. And I have to place my mind there and take out any other personal

00:48:47.820 relationship. Oh, Becky, if this really was you treating this just like any other trial,

00:48:55.520 how many trials now are going to be opened up, David? How many other? I mean, you're a criminal

00:49:00.840 transit attorney. If you had a client and she was the clerk, wouldn't you be going back in there

00:49:05.160 right now? You'd be trying to find every juror to say, what'd Becky say to you in our case?

00:49:10.480 Oh, absolutely. I mean, she has opened up a can of worms bigger than she can imagine.

00:49:14.840 All the defense attorneys who practice in that courthouse are now going to engage in investigation.

00:49:19.540 And Megan, in all likelihood, the presiding judge of that courthouse will do so also order that

00:49:27.120 investigation takes place, because how many verdicts were altered by that kind of tampering

00:49:33.980 with the jury in cases where she thought one side or the other should win? And so her input

00:49:39.700 was critically important. Wow. This is, you know, practicing law 34 years. I've never seen anything

00:49:45.260 even remotely like this. There's going to be, I mean, like I said, there's going to be a new trial

00:49:49.820 any way you look at it. And she, there's going to be two new trials. There's going to be a trial

00:49:54.780 for Mr. Murdoch, and there's going to be a trial, people versus Becky Hill. She's going to be the

00:49:59.600 defendant. All right. Two, two things. Number one, these are allegations. Number two, she denies them.

00:50:05.280 So far, all she said is that they're untrue. And we'll, we'll hear from her and her defense,

00:50:09.340 I'm sure at some point soon. Number three, there are no criminal charges against her yet. However,

00:50:13.620 however, uh, Murdoch's lawyers have sent a request to the South Carolina U S attorney's office

00:50:19.120 to open up a federal investigation into what they say was the violation of Alec Murdoch's civil rights.

00:50:26.420 And if they can prove jury tampering here, Jonna, potentially there would be a crime, uh,

00:50:31.760 committed by her. I mean, that that's if they can prove it, but that's not really what our court is

00:50:35.920 about. Our court is about whether the first guy accused of a crime, Alec Murdoch gets a new trial

00:50:42.100 because of these allegations. So here's just a little bit more meat on the bones, um, details

00:50:46.580 from their motion, which had to be filed with the appeals court asking for an evidentiary hearing

00:50:51.000 on their allegations. That would be the next step to get a hearing. Um, the judge who oversaw the trial

00:50:56.700 would probably be a witness, uh, in this proceeding. So he probably the, the judge we all fell in love

00:51:02.660 with. He was like totally measured. He probably won't be the judge, be somebody else, uh, hearing

00:51:08.100 these allegations. And, uh, this is what is alleged. She instructed jury's jurors not to be misled by

00:51:14.920 evidence presented by Murdoch's defense. Hello, the scales of justice supposed to have a little

00:51:21.140 blindfold over him that she told jurors not to be fooled by Murdoch's testimony in his own defense,

00:51:26.320 that she had frequent private conversations with the jury for person who it's also alleged she

00:51:31.900 manipulated into getting that role that the jury actually wanted somebody other than this person,

00:51:36.880 but that because Becky wanted this for a person, they got it, uh, that she asked jurors their

00:51:43.200 opinions on Murdoch's guilt or innocence. My God, the impropriety of it, if true, Jonna,

00:51:49.900 and that she pressured jurors to come to a conclusion in their deliberations quickly,

00:51:55.620 allegedly telling them they would be taken to a hotel for the night if they didn't come to a verdict

00:51:59.400 and did not allow smokers to take smoke breaks until deliberations were complete.

00:52:04.160 And on top of all that, that she furnished false information about that one juror she thought

00:52:10.520 was pro-Murdoch to the judge, which did result in that juror being booted on the last day of the

00:52:15.620 trial. Uh, the lawyers alleged that Becky Hill targeted that juror because she thought the juror

00:52:21.280 was a possible vote to acquit. Specifically, they claim that Becky lied to the judge about an alleged

00:52:28.660 inappropriate Facebook post. Well, a Facebook post that alleged inappropriate conduct by the juror.

00:52:34.180 And what happened during the trial, I remember this cause it was, I remember I was dropping

00:52:37.280 Yardley off at school and this is on the radio. I was like, Oh my God, they're actually going to

00:52:40.280 boot one of the jurors. And the allegation was that that juror's ex-husband had posted on Facebook

00:52:46.260 that the juror was blabbing about the case and her opinions about the case. And if so,

00:52:50.960 that was clearly inappropriate. And she did get booted. That was, I think one of the things the judge

00:52:56.360 looked at, but there were other alleged instances of misconduct by the juror too. And what the

00:53:01.660 defense is now alleging is that, um, the analysis of the ex-husband's Facebook account showed he did

00:53:08.240 not make that post. So I don't know where Becky was getting that from. Um, but that's just one of

00:53:16.200 the many allegations against her. I mean, can we just go back to ask the jurors their opinions on his

00:53:21.960 guilt or innocence? Right. And my question is one of my many questions. How, how did this clerk

00:53:29.900 have that kind of access? Like literally she is really a concierge to the jury. You make sure

00:53:36.020 the women's room has toilet paper. You make sure the pencils have erasers. You make sure the pizza

00:53:41.800 is ordered on time. You do that kind of thing in a trial like this. How was she having one-on-one

00:53:47.940 conversation? You know, if you're most judges, if you are sharing a restroom with a jury, you walk

00:53:54.020 out. If a juror walks in, the clerk should do the same thing. How was she able to have these

00:54:00.240 conversations, to have this kind of influence and nobody knows what's going on. I mean, there's

00:54:07.660 something really untoward here. And I think if, if the defense team has made one little tiny thing

00:54:14.040 that I wish they had changed, I wouldn't make the allegation that this clerk was doing this

00:54:19.340 motivated by the opportunity to write a book that wouldn't have happened if there was a mistrial.

00:54:24.420 I would suggest it because this is what it sounds like to me. And I would investigate this. Did she

00:54:30.500 do it simply because she didn't like the defendant? That is what's going to open the door.

00:54:35.980 I agree with you. You know, I totally agree with that. She didn't like him. It doesn't matter about

00:54:41.840 the book. Like, like, you know, her defense is going to be all the book has only made me five

00:54:44.980 cents. So that's not the motivation. The motivation was to help take down this guy, this family that

00:54:51.600 so many people were quote unquote jealous of, or, you know, didn't like for a number of reasons.

00:54:56.880 And she got to play God and putting that in air quotes in that sense by influencing the jury.

00:55:03.860 And to me, that's a better road to go down because it's more plausible than I think what

00:55:09.300 they're limiting. And she, so she had a coauthor on this book and he spoke with our pal Vinnie

00:55:14.480 Politan over at court TV. And he was making a similar point to the one you just raised. You're,

00:55:20.540 you're spot on, John. And here he was, um, his name is Neil Gordon. Take a listen.

00:55:24.420 I was pretty upset at what Harpulian said was the motivation that Becky had. Last time I checked,

00:55:36.560 Simon and Schuster did not send us a check for $200,000. The Gordons and the Hills put up $30,000

00:55:43.740 of our own money because we felt this was an interesting story to tell. So right away,

00:55:50.480 Vinnie, for that to be motivation for her to get a book deal is completely false.

00:55:57.460 That is a weird place to take it. I mean, maybe they really do think that was her motivation,

00:56:01.820 but the book itself is weird. I mean, I haven't read the book, but I've seen excerpts of it. And

00:56:07.100 here are a couple that I think got the jurors. I are up. Uh, it's called behind the doors of justice,

00:56:14.540 the Murdoch murders. I mean, everybody cashed in when, have you ever seen a clerk of court,

00:56:18.480 write a book? When does the clerk, we all know the jury writes books. When does the clerk of court

00:56:23.780 write a book? I mean, it's so weird. That's probably what got the defense lawyers irritated

00:56:27.780 and thinking, you know, maybe this is the motive, but here's what she writes. Um, she talks about

00:56:32.580 when they went to visit the murder scene out at Mazzell where, uh, they lived the Murdoch family.

00:56:37.440 And this is where the, the, the pair were murdered. She writes some of us either from the courthouse,

00:56:43.400 uh, i.e. her law enforcement or the jury at Mazzell had an epiphany and shared our thoughts with our

00:56:52.580 eyes. We did it with our eyes. I knew, and they knew that Alec was guilty. Okay. That's just weird.

00:57:00.560 So she's telegraphing that while the case is still pending before the jury was allowed to talk about

00:57:04.340 this case with anybody, they were communicating to her and she was communicating to them with their

00:57:08.820 eyes. He's guilty. She better not have been doing that. Uh, then she goes on to say, uh,

00:57:15.780 hold on. Although I was conflicted about knowing the Murdoch family, because everybody in South

00:57:21.900 Carolina knew the Murdoch family and about having so many people watching and listening to me as I read

00:57:26.960 the verdict, I was mostly concerned about Alec being found innocent when I knew in my heart,

00:57:33.420 he was guilty. I mean, all of this suggests your claim, Jonna, which is she'd made up her mind.

00:57:40.420 She was reading into her interactions with the jurors and it makes it much more plausible what

00:57:44.960 these jurors are saying. She then did orally. Yeah. And maybe the book is just the catalyst or

00:57:52.540 the means that gives them the, the reason to write the motion. But this is deeper than that. This is

00:57:59.400 deeper. She didn't like the guy. She wanted to have her 15 minutes of fame. I mean, it all comes

00:58:04.000 together and it's all completely inappropriate. I just don't want the defense team to limit

00:58:09.020 themselves to the book being the motivation here when I think it runs far, far deeper.

00:58:14.020 Okay. But now here we go. So let's say the court of appeals gives them a hearing because they do need

00:58:19.740 to kick the tires on these claims and she'll get a chance to defend herself. Um, and let's say the

00:58:24.700 court of appeals orders a new trial for Alec Murdoch. I mean, extraordinary. He's serving two life

00:58:28.280 sentences right now. The prosecution decided not to go for the death penalty. Um, serving two life

00:58:33.140 sentences. One of the critical moments of the trial, David, was that when he took the stand in

00:58:41.100 his own defense and a lot of us were shocked he did it and he did come across as a liar. And one of

00:58:46.280 the reasons many of us believed he chose to do it and some would argue had to do it was because he was

00:58:52.300 caught in a lie prior to the moment he got up there. What happened was he initially said to law

00:58:57.280 enforcement, I was nowhere near there. I was not near the kennels at Moselle when my wife and my son

00:59:03.080 were murdered. I wasn't there. I had taken my car to go visit my ailing mother and he didn't know

00:59:09.980 that at the kennels at Moselle, his son had taken a video and sent it to a friend showing, uh, something

00:59:22.020 about the friend's dog that was in the kennels and posted on Snapchat or it was either posted or

00:59:27.000 was sent to the friend. My memory's failing at the moment, but it showed, it clearly showed Alec

00:59:32.020 Murdoch's voice. Um, and you like, they knew it was him. Hold on a second. Here it is. We have it.

00:59:38.320 They had witness after witness, take the stand and say, that's very clearly 100% the voice of Alec Murdoch.

01:00:04.320 He was at the kennels at Moselle moments before the murder. I mean, moments and the videotape tied

01:00:10.820 right in with the murder scene. It was very, very, they had him dead to right. So he had to take the

01:00:14.040 stand. He tried to explain away his lies to law enforcement by saying, Oh, I was intimidated by

01:00:18.540 law enforcement. I was on drugs. That's why I lied and said that wasn't me and that, or that I wasn't

01:00:23.360 there. And now this time, David, he will not be surprised. He will not make the same mistake.

01:00:29.720 And you know, the odds of the jury, the new jury remembering this whole sequence of events are

01:00:34.940 very slim. Yeah. Well, the problem is he, those are prior inconsistent statements. If he changes

01:00:41.580 his story and the prosecution will be able, unless there's some sort of a bizarre court of repeal ruling

01:00:47.820 to play those statements that he made on the witness stand in the first trial. But you know,

01:00:53.820 any way you look at it, Megan, I mean, he's, he did it. I don't think his lawyers had a choice

01:00:57.860 based on exactly what you said. He had to testify, but he will be able to fine tune things and given

01:01:04.420 a second chance at a trial, they'll be able to pull out all stops, come up with evidence they

01:01:08.400 didn't think about, which happens in every trial and bring that forth to the jury. But the reality

01:01:13.780 is Megan, and we were talking about this a little earlier about the court clerk, Becky Hill. Look,

01:01:18.900 the reality is she may have had some sort of a megalomania kind of syndrome where she thought she had

01:01:25.320 this extraordinary power to influence the outcome of such a huge case, maybe the biggest case in Scott

01:01:31.560 Peterson, or OJ or one of those type of cases. Yeah, and she wanted to do it. And the fact that

01:01:36.620 her book didn't make a lot of money, and that was found out after the fact doesn't mean she didn't

01:01:41.400 think it would make a lot of money when she was doing all this. So I suspect that the media publicity

01:01:46.480 and fame that she would get on a conviction based upon her having an extraordinary impact in that

01:01:55.060 conviction was a motivating factor. And it's just bizarre, and it will result bank on it in a new

01:02:02.640 trial. And remember, the jurors gave sworn statements, by the way, for questioning them.

01:02:07.080 If they lied, that's a felony called perjury. So that's why I tend to believe this.

01:02:11.720 Well, one of the defense lawyers actually made a point about the jurors. Dick Harpoulian

01:02:16.360 was on GMA yesterday and was talking about the jurors and the communications that they're now

01:02:21.580 having. Listen to this. The two jurors that gave us affidavits hired a lawyer, Joe McCullough,

01:02:28.040 before they would talk to us and before they gave us the affidavits. The other jurors out there on a

01:02:34.440 group text, and we are reasonably informed that last week when these allegations began to surface,

01:02:41.720 one of the jurors said, quote, who's talking? I'm concerned that these jurors don't understand the

01:02:50.060 import of what's getting ready to happen. They need to get lawyers. They need to understand they

01:02:55.000 may have some exposure, and they need to be careful before they start talking to the FBI or SWED

01:03:00.260 or even us. Whoa, what does that mean, Jonna? You know, that's a really great point. And kudos

01:03:08.180 for him for making that because they might have some exposure. We don't know that all of the jurors

01:03:14.700 are innocent in this. We don't know that there wasn't some backdoor conniving and whispering and

01:03:20.700 violation of the jury rules going on for all of this to happen. We do not know that. I hope that's not

01:03:27.260 the case. But we don't know. And if I were a juror in that situation, and all of a sudden law

01:03:32.480 enforcement and whomever else wanted to talk to me, you're darn right, I'd want a lawyer too. And

01:03:36.500 they're smart to get one. And this way, they can't say that the Dick Harpootlian is influencing

01:03:41.480 them in any way, because now it can be lawyer to lawyer. I mean, this is, again, we don't know what we

01:03:48.400 don't know. We only know that a couple of jurors came forward and said, this is what we say

01:03:53.260 happened. And they don't really have a motivation to come forward, except to do the right thing,

01:04:00.340 except to do the right thing. So that's another interesting point.

01:04:03.920 But can we talk about that? Because there is sometimes jurors have Sunday morning regrets,

01:04:09.480 you know, as we say in college. Was that out loud? And they, you don't get a jury verdict

01:04:20.420 reversed for the Sunday morning regret, right? Like, you feel bad that you convicted him,

01:04:25.460 you got blowback from your friends. And here's some of what the jurors said in their supporting

01:04:31.540 affidavits. Juror number 630, they're not naming them, says this woman Hill instructed the jury to

01:04:36.640 quote, watch Alec closely, to look at his actions, to look at his movements with the juror, which the

01:04:41.600 juror understood to mean that he was guilty. Quote, I had questions about Murdoch's guilt, but I voted

01:04:48.360 guilty because I felt pressured by other jurors. Well, that's not that's not good enough, right?

01:04:55.800 Like, that's not going to do it. Well, that would that make it in my view, in my practice,

01:05:00.800 that would certainly be grounds, strong grounds for new trial motion for new trial. If I toss that in

01:05:06.920 and the juror said this was not actually my decision, my verdict. It was just that I felt

01:05:13.600 pressured. OK, what caused the pressure? What was said to you that caused the pressure? Yeah,

01:05:17.560 that would be sufficient grounds, certainly for motion for new trial. Don't they all pressure

01:05:21.100 each other to get to a unanimous verdict? Twelve angry men, you know, like it happens.

01:05:25.600 Well, the pressure in the way you said it, it seemed to be a little bit inappropriate,

01:05:30.040 that type of pressure. If it's just listen, listen to this or listen to that, or are you sure

01:05:35.480 that's fine? But right, exactly. OK, that's interesting. Here's juror 741 who says,

01:05:43.020 Ms. Hill told the jurors right before the defense put up their case, quote,

01:05:46.460 y'all are going to hear things that will throw y'all off. Don't let this distract or mislead you.

01:05:53.140 And on and on, and I read some of the other allegations that the standard is interesting.

01:05:58.680 I initially thought they're not going to get a new trial unless they can prove

01:06:01.960 there would have been a different result. That's not the standard because the evidence against him

01:06:07.120 was overwhelming. I mean, I think all three of us believe the guy did it.

01:06:09.800 Um, that's not the standard. Here is defense attorney Jim Griffin explaining what the relevant

01:06:15.360 legal standard is in SOT 13. That's not the legal test. The legal test is,

01:06:21.600 is the subject matter prejudicial to the defense. It's not what would it have made a difference in

01:06:27.620 the outcome? What was a subject matter of the improper private conversation material to the defense

01:06:33.800 when the subject matter is, and it's reported under oath by these jurors. It was a direction on how you

01:06:41.220 should receive Alec Murdoch's testimony. You should look at him. Don't be fooled by him.

01:06:45.820 That subject matter is absolutely material. That's the core of our defense.

01:06:50.060 And that is something that we had no chance to defend against.

01:06:53.600 Okay. So do you agree with that? First of all, like it doesn't, you don't have to prove

01:06:59.600 as the defense, we would have gotten a not guilty verdict had she not done this nonsense.

01:07:05.120 I actually disagree with that. Sorry, David. I think he's sort of on, but there is another element

01:07:11.380 to the first of all has to be evidence that you didn't know before the trial and that you couldn't

01:07:14.680 have known during the trial. And obviously something going wrong with jury deliberations would,

01:07:18.980 would fill that bill. But also it has to be, it doesn't have to definitely change the outcome.

01:07:24.000 It has to be likely to change the outcome. Then there's a strong possibility that the outcome

01:07:29.240 could be changed, um, based on this newly discovered evidence. So it's along the same lines of what his

01:07:35.840 defense team is saying, but there is that, that element of would it change the outcome? Could it

01:07:41.180 change the outcome? Not, will it change the outcome?

01:07:43.760 I mean, the lady saying, don't be fooled by the defendant. It's so grossly inappropriate if it

01:07:50.460 happened, she should be booted out of that office. She's an elected official. Go ahead, David.

01:07:55.020 The only thing more inappropriate would have been had the judge done that Megan. One of the problems

01:07:58.980 is with having the clerk have any contact with jury at all is the clerk is there in court when the

01:08:04.700 defense makes motions, objections that are outside the presence of the jury has arguments that the

01:08:10.360 judge only wants the, uh, the counsel and the judge to hear. And the clerk is the clerk knows all

01:08:16.280 that. The clerk has heard all that. So for her to have contact with this jury, it's just out of

01:08:21.880 control, inappropriate, uh, misconduct, like I've never seen. And I, like I said, if it's true,

01:08:28.160 then, then start picking the new jury. And to that point, we have jury instructions that say to the

01:08:35.080 jury, don't take any cues from the judge. We don't say, don't take any cues from the person sitting

01:08:40.480 next to them, which is the clerk. Like, so maybe that should be added because she really, if this

01:08:47.120 is true, went, you know, behind the scenes and wreaked some havoc. Becky, you're not important.

01:08:54.480 You're a fly on the wall. You're not the main player. Sorry, sister. If you want to be the main

01:08:59.360 player, go back to law school, get a law degree, pass the bar and work your way up to being a sitting

01:09:04.540 judge in the state of South Carolina. P.S. Now it's never going to happen. All right. Um,

01:09:09.500 she denies all charges. Okay. We'll see. We'll find out. We'll find out who's lying. Either

01:09:13.040 Becky's lying or the jurors are lying, uh, to be continued. All right. I've got to get to this

01:09:17.360 proud boy sentencing situation. Uh, Enrique Terrio, 39 years old. He's a Floridian of Cuban descent,

01:09:24.480 former proud boys leader. This is in connection with the January 6th, uh, trials that we've seen

01:09:30.140 ongoing, just got the longest sentence handed down to date. He was sentenced to 22 years in prison.

01:09:40.160 When I heard this, the first thought I thought I had was he hit a cop. He attacked a cop. He's one

01:09:45.080 of those guys bearing with the flagpole, beating a cop like that. Okay. You know, he planned something

01:09:49.820 terrible. And then he went in there and assaulted a police officer. No, no, he did allegedly plan.

01:09:55.640 Uh, they alleged that he conspired to prevent, hinder, and delay the certification of the

01:10:01.040 electoral college, uh, vote and to oppose by force, the authority of the government,

01:10:05.520 uh, accused of recruiting others to take part in an assembling a group of nearly 200 people to the

01:10:11.160 Capitol that he posted messages to his followers, including things like proud of my boys in my

01:10:15.520 country and don't effing leave day of not Jan 6th had a nine page strategic plan to storm

01:10:21.020 government buildings in Washington on January 6th that were found in his possession after the riot.

01:10:25.700 He wasn't there. He did not go, but he allegedly planned. And so the reason they got into 22 years

01:10:32.800 is they gave him a terrorism enhancement. I'm not supporting or defending what he did,

01:10:38.280 but 22 years, Jonna. Yeah. I'm also quite surprised by it, but I guess I'm surprised by it. And I'm also

01:10:49.280 upset by it and again, not defending what he did at all, but the double standard just immediately

01:10:54.820 smacks me in the face with this because I, I live in the New York city area. I work in the New York

01:10:59.660 city area. I've seen a lot of quote, peaceful protests that weren't so peaceful. Nobody's getting

01:11:05.900 22 years behind bars. And, you know, I, I struggle with that and everybody's first amendment, right? To

01:11:13.300 stand up and rise up and say, express themselves in ways that they disagree with what's going on. And

01:11:18.200 the total double standard here just doesn't make any sense to me. And again, it's, it's, it's

01:11:22.920 infuriating. We just had a news this week, David, that in New York, the police are now agreeing to

01:11:30.420 reform their protest tactics in a settlement over the George Floyd protests that now, because all

01:11:37.020 these protesters complained about how the police handled their riot, that the cops now have to have

01:11:44.840 different levels of response. They need like several tiered systems of protest response that

01:11:51.820 prioritize deescalation. And under the lower tier response, the default for most protests, the NYPD

01:11:56.760 must now accommodate street demonstrations, including those that obstruct traffic and use community

01:12:01.840 affairs officers trained in deescalation. You can't even send numerous police officers until certain bad

01:12:08.680 behavior by the protesters has been evidenced and recorded. They got, uh, $35 million, uh, from the

01:12:17.720 New York city officials because of their alleged claims of police misconduct. This also happened.

01:12:24.600 What was it? It was just out in Denver. They settled with police protesters, uh, but protesters in

01:12:29.020 the George Floyd thing for 4.7 million, the protesters in the George Floyd search are getting paid millions.

01:12:33.860 The protesters in January 6th are getting 22 years in prison.

01:12:38.600 Yeah. And how many cities have made huge settlements with the Antifa rioters that went around and burned

01:12:44.940 down and destroyed cities in the summer of 2020 over political issues, political issues. They did not go

01:12:52.220 to jail. At least a lot of them didn't. Uh, they rather banded together and convinced far left, uh, city

01:12:59.440 leaders to pay them out millions. I mean, clearly Megan in New York, the inmates were on the asylum. I mean,

01:13:04.740 there's no other way to put it. If you can't use law enforcement in a way that will deter, uh, in a way that

01:13:12.560 will significantly, um, intimidate the bad guys, then there's no purpose. There's no point in having law

01:13:19.260 enforcement. This is, you know, the, the January 6th thing in DC, you know, giving him 22 years. I regularly, I've had

01:13:25.080 people commit murder that don't get that much time, Megan attempted murder that don't commit that much

01:13:29.960 time, carjacking, bank robbery, rape. I mean, this is purely political. There's no other way to look

01:13:37.500 at it. And I fully suspect Megan that a lot, maybe if not all of them will be pardoned once president

01:13:46.000 Trump assumes office again, January, 2025. I mean, if these, if they're having the book thrown at them

01:13:53.080 for political reasons, then a political solution would be the answer. The prosecution wanted 33

01:13:58.560 years, my God, 33, um, switching gears, but staying on the subject of Trump. He gave an interesting

01:14:05.200 interview to our pal Hugh Hewitt, uh, yesterday or the day before. And Hugh asked him if he's planning

01:14:10.400 on taking the stand in these criminal trials against him. I think this particular exchange involved the

01:14:16.900 trial about the classified documents, allegedly classified, uh, being held down at Mar-a-Lago.

01:14:22.700 And you know how Trump is accused of obstructing justice by not turning them over, even though

01:14:28.460 under a federal subpoena, listen here. If you have to go to trial, will you testify in your own

01:14:34.760 defense? Oh yes, absolutely. You'll take the stand. That I would, that I look forward to because

01:14:41.440 that's just like rush, rush, rush. Okay. If you do, and they ask you on, on the stand, did you order

01:14:46.960 anyone to move boxes? How will you answer? I'm not answering that question for you,

01:14:52.180 but I'm totally covered under the law. Okay.

01:14:57.440 So he's getting smarter on this, right? Like he's not, you know, with Brett Baer,

01:15:01.900 he was giving like really direct answers that were going to become relevant and played in the trial

01:15:05.880 here. He said, all right, I'm not going to, I'm not doing that with you, with you. He'll,

01:15:09.260 but Jonna taking the stand in the classified documents case, which is probably legally

01:15:13.960 the strongest case against him. Yeah. So I, you know, he'd be a hard client to control.

01:15:20.680 Number one, number two, I don't, you know, there's something to be said for being the attorney that

01:15:26.420 gets to cross examine Donald Trump in a historic criminal case. Number three, I think at the close

01:15:33.160 of the prosecution's case, would you make the decision then whether or not your client has

01:15:38.260 to testify? Will he listen to that? Where will we be? When will this trial be in terms of, you know,

01:15:43.840 the, the political season? Like these are, this is all crazy. It's all crazy. And if I have my,

01:15:49.680 I don't want to go off subject here, but I really wish all of his defense teams would be fighting this

01:15:55.000 procedurally so that we don't see four trials coming down the pike before we all vote in the next

01:16:01.980 election. I really wish they could do something there if they intend to do that. Otherwise I'm

01:16:07.500 99% certain that this man will take the stand in his own defense in all of these trials, whether his

01:16:13.360 lawyers want him to or not. Well, right now the scheduled cases are this one in Georgia. Um,

01:16:19.200 they wanted it. I mean, two, two of the folks are going to be tried in October,

01:16:22.900 including Sidney Powell, uh, and another lawyer. They're going to be charged, uh, tried October next

01:16:27.840 month. Trump wants his case to be severed from there as he does not want to go that quickly.

01:16:32.820 Then, um, the classified documents case that we're talking about May 20th, that's set for of 24

01:16:38.920 March 4th, the day before super Tuesday is the election interference case set to start in Washington.

01:16:46.120 That's the January 6th case against him. And March 25th, just a little later, that same month

01:16:50.640 will be the New York state ridiculous stormy Daniels hush money case. If these dates hold. So we'll,

01:16:57.800 they want them all to be held before the election. Cause of course these are political.

01:17:01.900 So what do you make of it though, David? Like

01:17:03.820 will his state of mind be relevant and will he actually take the stand? Cause I realize,

01:17:12.520 yes, you could cross examine Trump, but you could also try to spend your day nailing down jello

01:17:16.540 and you probably have the same success. Yeah. Yeah. I think Megan, unfortunately,

01:17:22.400 on one hand, he will have to take the stand because no jury will accept him not taking the stand,

01:17:27.180 even though there is a juror instruction that says specifically, you're not to consider

01:17:31.620 the fact that the defendant did not take the stand. He has to, I mean, he's Donald Trump.

01:17:36.920 He's president of the United States. He's 45. He's likely to be 47 and he'll have to,

01:17:42.320 but we're a long way from doing any trials. There are going to be demurs. There are going to be

01:17:46.060 motions to strike motions to dismiss appeals of those motions all the way to the Supreme court.

01:17:50.540 Do not count on any of these trials taking place in 2024. It's just not going to happen.

01:17:58.180 I totally agree with that. It's so easy to delay. You guys know as defense lawyers,

01:18:03.300 it's so easy to delay the trial. Is it not? Am I wrong? I mean, I didn't practice criminal law,

01:18:07.060 but it's certainly in civil law. It's so easy to defend, to postpone the trial. So, I mean,

01:18:11.500 won't it be in these cases as well for a criminal defendant whose rights are, you know,

01:18:14.920 constitutional rights are very much at issue. You would think it would be, but when you have

01:18:20.180 some of these judges that seem to be on siding with the prosecution, when they're not supposed to be

01:18:25.520 that at all, they're supposed to be neutral arbiters. But when they have a political agenda

01:18:29.060 too, and you know that all of these are politically motivated, look at the timing like this.

01:18:33.600 You couldn't make, you couldn't write a script as, as salacious as what's going on with Donald

01:18:39.400 Trump in these four criminal cases. You just couldn't do it. But a good judge, a neutral judge,

01:18:44.320 regardless of their political affiliation, would be granting the time it takes. Look,

01:18:48.580 this Georgia trial or the one that's scheduled for, for October, the trial is going to take

01:18:54.220 longer than they have to prepare for the trial. That's completely unfair and unheard of.

01:19:01.360 So no, I know it's completely ridiculous. Yeah. I just think all the appeals he's going to have

01:19:07.500 to make, especially down in Georgia, you know, on whether it should be severed on whether it should

01:19:10.540 be held in federal court and, you know, all the associations they're trying to make

01:19:14.060 and we'll see. Um, you're right. You make a good point. If a, if a neutral justice were,

01:19:18.700 or jurist were in charge of all four, I don't think any would get tried before November,

01:19:22.740 uh, but of next year, but he does not have neutral jurists in charge of these cases.

01:19:29.080 Uh, David and Jonna, what a pleasure. Love having the, the dream team back together.

01:19:34.300 The OGs. We love being here, Megan. I'm speaking for you, David. Sorry. We love being.

01:19:38.660 Anytime. Love being on. And Megan, congratulations on your massive success. Well deserved.

01:19:45.300 Very well deserved.

01:19:46.080 Thank you. Thank you. And thanks for being a part of it. Love you both. See you soon.

01:19:49.360 Okay. And coming up, Mike Baker is back on the show. Looking forward to our conversation. Stay tuned.

01:20:00.820 Joining me now, Mike Baker. He's a former CIA covert operations officer, and he's also the host of the

01:20:08.500 newly relaunched President's Daily Brief podcast. Mike, welcome back to the show.

01:20:14.900 Thank you very much, Megan. I appreciate it. Thank you.

01:20:16.980 Thank you. It's great to see you. Okay. So, and, and welcome to PDB. I always screwed up

01:20:21.480 presidential daily brief, whatever. Um, it's what the president gets every day. And now Mike Baker is

01:20:26.160 bringing it to you courtesy of his time at the CIA and elsewhere. And I think it's actually very good

01:20:30.740 that you are doing this because you have such a way, especially with foreign policy that kind of,

01:20:35.860 most people kind of glaze over when you get into the intricate details of, you know, deep foreign

01:20:39.580 policy, but you're very good at sort of separating the wheat from the chaff. So let's start there.

01:20:45.140 What's grabbed you this week about, uh, stories in the news on foreign policy, whether it's Ukraine,

01:20:49.920 North Korea, Russia, what's, what's on your mind.

01:20:52.540 Sure. Well, thanks for, for mentioning that, by the way, I appreciate it. And I think one of the

01:20:56.460 great things about the, the, this relaunch of this podcast, the President's Daily Brief is that it is,

01:21:01.480 it's only 20 minutes, right? And so just like with what lands on the president's desk every morning

01:21:06.460 with, with the actual President's Daily Brief, you just keep it really tight, right? So you,

01:21:10.600 you talk about the primary issues of the, of the day, you put a little context analysis to it,

01:21:16.320 and then you get on and you move. And, and so it's, it, it doesn't take a big bite out of people's

01:21:21.180 day. So anyway, but I think in terms of what we're looking at currently, um, I mean, obviously there's

01:21:27.040 the Ukraine conflict, right? And, and the interesting part about that is we tend to focus on the battlefield

01:21:33.480 and, you know, whether there's been any forward progress from the counter-offensive and how much

01:21:38.500 territory have they retaken. Uh, but there's all the activity that goes on in the periphery,

01:21:45.200 right? There's all the, the things that happen that impact the world. So you've got the Russian

01:21:50.620 military using food as a weapon, right? They've blockaded the Black Sea ports, uh, that Ukraine uses

01:21:56.980 to export grain. They're a major grain exporter that helps feed the world. So they blockaded those

01:22:02.660 ports. Ukraine then kind of diverted and they said, okay, we'll start using transportation routes

01:22:07.700 out of ports on the Danube river. Now the Russian military is attacking those ports. So we're going

01:22:13.020 to see, as a result, you're going to see prices spike. You're going to see problems with the global

01:22:17.040 food supply chain. And it's just one more way that Putin through this, this tragic, uh, concept of

01:22:25.300 invading Ukraine is impacting the rest of the world. So it's, it's the, the stories on the sidelines

01:22:30.960 sometimes around this conflict that I think are the most interesting. Can I ask you a question?

01:22:35.500 Cause I was like, I checked back in on Ukraine and all I hear is bad news. Um, you know,

01:22:41.240 definitely the Russians have taken a bunch of losses and Putin's got some problems when it comes

01:22:45.620 to finding new personnel, but how, like, how does this end? That is the most important question.

01:22:54.040 And frankly, it's the one that most people aren't asking, right? I mean, it just, you, you,

01:22:58.420 you look at it and you go, okay, we get it. It's very emotive. We were all waving the Ukraine flag.

01:23:03.840 Everyone's been impressed with the courage and the fortitude. Um, NATO has shown terrific resolve,

01:23:10.600 right? And, and in fact, Putin played the NATO angle completely wrong, right? And, and he started

01:23:16.360 this invasion in part to show, uh, how weak NATO is. And he was hoping to fracture NATO. And of course,

01:23:23.440 he had backfired completely on Putin. Now NATO is unified. They've added to their membership,

01:23:27.880 but despite the emotion, despite everyone saying, yes, of course, Ukraine needs to win. Of course,

01:23:34.920 you know, Zelensky is saying the obvious, which is we, when we take back all our territory,

01:23:39.580 including Crimea, that's when we've won. But the reality is that we need to be having some

01:23:46.080 pragmatic discussions about what a settlement looks like, because the idea that Putin will

01:23:51.780 willingly give up, uh, Crimea in particular is it's just not in the cards. And so we're at,

01:24:01.760 we're at day 550 plus in this war. We're entering the winter season, which means soon we'll be in the

01:24:08.100 third year of this conflict. So your question is spot on and it doesn't distract or it doesn't take

01:24:14.780 away from the bravery and the courage and the importance of what, you know, is happening there

01:24:19.140 with Ukraine, but it is the real world where you have to ask those questions.

01:24:25.220 Meanwhile, uh, two of our foes, Russia and North Korea are getting cozier and cozier.

01:24:30.380 And despite North Korea's promise not to arm the Russians in connection with this battle with

01:24:35.680 Ukraine, they appear to be getting ready to do it. Uh, and so our UN, our U S national security

01:24:41.140 advisor, Jake Sullivan warned no co that, um, providing weapons to Russia would not reflect

01:24:48.520 well on North Korea. What do you make of that? Yeah. Well, I'm sure you know, Kim, Kim Jong-un

01:24:56.380 probably the dear leader probably sat there and goes, you know, he's right. It's, this is not

01:25:00.320 going to reflect well. So we have to rethink our position. Uh, we're going to, they're going to

01:25:08.780 send us a harshly worded memo. Um, so yeah, I think, um, the, the, the, the relationship that's

01:25:16.900 building, right. This blossoming romance between Putin and Kim Jong-un over the recent past, it makes

01:25:23.300 sense from a strategic point of view for both sides, right? So Russia needs to re resupply

01:25:29.480 their, their weapons inventory, their munitions in particular, their stockpiles have been depleted

01:25:34.020 at an incredible rate. And North Korea is one of the few places they can turn to at this point.

01:25:39.900 North Korea on the other hand needs hard currency. They need food, they need energy. So that part of

01:25:45.300 it makes sense. It doesn't make it any less worrisome, uh, but it is not unexpected. And now you have

01:25:51.180 sitting over the top of that blossoming relationship, you have China and, you know,

01:25:56.800 according to some South Korean Intel sources, Russia recently, uh, suggested that North Korea

01:26:02.180 joined China and Russia in joint military exercises. So that relationship needs to be watched very

01:26:07.340 carefully. That's a nightmare. That's a nightmare triad that we'd really like to avoid of some of the

01:26:14.000 world's worst actors. Um, another thing I know you guys covered, and this is of course on the minds of

01:26:18.940 a lot of Americans as of last month, but the two year mark of, uh, losing our 13 service personnel

01:26:24.340 in Afghanistan and the disastrous withdrawal, a book has come out, a journalist, uh, Frank Foyer,

01:26:29.880 and it's called the last politician. And it, it writes about what went down as that one piece of

01:26:36.000 tape that we all saw was airing with the plane, leaving the tarmac out of Afghanistan and these

01:26:42.920 civilians and translators and kids trying to hold on to the exterior of the plane. As it took off,

01:26:49.100 it was absolutely devastating. Uh, and they reveal that at the time, Anthony Blinken was chilling in

01:26:57.920 the Hamptons press secretary, Jen Psaki was beach side with her family. However, after seeing that

01:27:04.480 footage, she made the executive decision to cut her beach time short and return to the white house.

01:27:09.820 So it appears they were all over it, Mike, they were ready. I mean, this is that happened in the

01:27:14.680 middle of the withdrawal. It was very foreseeable that danger was, was coming to our personnel,

01:27:20.020 our military and our friends over there. Yeah, it was right in, it was right in the thick of things,

01:27:26.200 right? Um, president Biden had taken off for camp David three days later, right? Uh, Ghani,

01:27:33.620 the head of Afghan, uh, Afghanistan at the time fled, uh, because he was rightly concerned about his own

01:27:39.560 safety. Um, so like the coward that he is, he took off. Um, so Biden was sitting in camp David,

01:27:45.920 uh, now admittedly you can do command and control from camp David. It, you know, it's got that

01:27:50.120 capability, but yeah, our secretary of States in the Hamptons, uh, our primary white house spokesperson

01:27:56.820 is sitting on a beach. How tough is it? And this is not a thing against a particular administration,

01:28:03.640 any administration, right? That's looking, uh, and, and, and is staring down the barrel of a

01:28:09.540 withdrawal from a war torn country where we know our, our foe is knocking at the door, right? It

01:28:16.280 was no surprise at that point that the Taliban was moving on Kabul, right? So how tough is it to cancel

01:28:22.200 leave and say, you know what? Everybody, all hands to the pump. We're sticking around the white house

01:28:26.640 because this thing may head South very quickly. So they didn't do that. I think it's just an indication

01:28:31.760 of, of sort of the level of sophistication of their national security team and the advice they

01:28:38.180 were getting at the time. Uh, the idea that somehow the Afghan military was going to hold together,

01:28:43.980 but we knew for years that we were having the same problems that the Russians had, the Soviets had

01:28:50.040 when they were in Afghanistan, right? Corruption, uh, poor morale, leadership problems, command and

01:28:56.360 control. They couldn't hold the, the, the urban centers, right? They couldn't hold the countryside. I

01:29:01.220 mean, it was, we repeated some of the same problems that the Soviets had. The Soviets spent five

01:29:06.040 years trying to get out of Afghanistan because of the same problems we experienced. So it was,

01:29:11.400 it was a very insightful look. Yeah. It was a very insightful look by, by the author.

01:29:17.200 Yeah, exactly. Not, not that, I mean, even here we cancel our vacations when there's a presidential

01:29:20.780 debate, nevermind something like the withdrawal of our troops from Afghanistan. Um, let's talk about

01:29:26.440 Hunter Biden. Now there is news today that he will be indicted in connection with the gun case

01:29:33.600 this month. Um, that they, the speedy trial act requires the government to obtain the return of

01:29:39.080 indictment by a grand jury by Friday, September 29th at the earliest they believe they will do it before

01:29:43.300 that date. I mean, hello, finally. And where are the rest of the charges? And of course, all of the

01:29:49.880 main big charges are to their, their barred they're, they're untimely now. Yeah, this is, uh, I mean,

01:29:57.700 the, the, the gun charge aside, although I think there's an interesting little sidebar story here

01:30:02.400 where the defense team for Hunter, um, appears to be looking at the strategy of saying that,

01:30:07.780 you know, prohibiting or preventing a, a, uh, a drug user or, you know, uh, from owning a weapon is

01:30:15.640 unconstitutional. So if they push that, that's going to run completely counter to the white

01:30:20.180 house's efforts to, you know, uh, be more aggressive in gun control. I'm not sure how

01:30:24.580 they're going to square that, that loop, but, uh, the, the bigger story from my perspective is

01:30:30.720 just the failure, uh, of the, the vast majority of the media to focus on what is clearly a money

01:30:38.180 laundering operation. Right. Uh, I've got a company that does global intelligence and investigations

01:30:43.520 all around the world. We have done countless, uh, asset tracing and fraud investigations and looking

01:30:49.940 at single purpose companies set up all around the world for purpose of just funneling cash to

01:30:56.020 obfuscate the flow of those funds. And essentially that is money laundering. So when, when you look at

01:31:02.760 the years that it's taken for this investigation to look at what the Biden family, right, led by the

01:31:11.220 key bag person, Hunter Biden to do, I've got investigators that could have wrapped this up

01:31:15.660 and presented I two charts with all the links and all the evidence within six months or so.

01:31:21.280 It's just astounding that there's no real curiosity about this problem.

01:31:27.220 There's no, there's no desire of course, right. By this DOJ to actually get to the bottom of it.

01:31:32.600 Um, in the meantime, we have a president who seems literally lost most of his presidency nowadays.

01:31:38.140 And it came up this week when he very clearly bailed from a medal of honor ceremony, um, with

01:31:45.880 prematurely, he walked out before it was over and before the benediction, it was a very clear error.

01:31:51.960 You could tell he was lost. And now Corrine Jean-Pierre, the white house press secretary is

01:31:55.880 trying to spin the moment, which got coverage everywhere internationally. God bless this medal

01:32:02.280 of honor recipient. Uh, he deserved better. Here's her spin on it. Um, it was all part of the plan

01:32:07.760 basically sought none. He left as planned. He left, uh, when there was a pause in the program

01:32:14.340 in order to minimize, to minimize his close contact with attendees, uh, who are, uh, who

01:32:20.120 are about to participate in a reception. Oh my God, Mike, she's trying to blame COVID.

01:32:25.980 She's trying to, first of all, he was, he was next to that guy for how many minutes, like within

01:32:30.260 like spitting distance of his face for how many minutes. And then, and then right at the end

01:32:34.520 before the prayer, that was the deal breaking moment, please. Yeah, no, you can tell, and

01:32:39.240 you pointed that out, you can tell on everybody's faces, they were perplexed, right? This wasn't

01:32:43.020 a planned departure. And, and, you know, KJP is doing everything that, you know, that spokesperson

01:32:48.780 has to do, you know, she's, she's got a tough job. I, I, I think it's a terrible job, um, in

01:32:55.320 a situation like this, where you're trying to defend something rather than just being honest

01:32:58.540 and saying, well, you know what, the president had a moment, but of course, you're not going

01:33:01.060 to say that we're going into an election year. And the, the striking thing is survey

01:33:06.000 after survey recently has shown that it's not just the Republicans that are concerned

01:33:10.120 about his acuity, right? And it's not an age thing because you've got incredibly sharp 85,

01:33:15.100 90 year olds out there. It's an acuity issue. It's, it's your ability to perform the, your,

01:33:20.220 your responsibilities. And the Democrats are just as, almost as concerned as Republicans

01:33:27.240 are about this, but look, we got a, we got a vast number of 80 plus year old politicians.

01:33:32.880 We just keep voting for them. We keep sending them back, whether they're Republican or Democrat.

01:33:36.860 And, you know, part of the problem I think is we've never talked about term limits in a serious

01:33:41.380 way before. And maybe it's time. I mean, are there, you know, at the law firm where I used to

01:33:46.940 work, there were limits you had to get out. Trying to remember, I think it was, was it age 60? I never

01:33:53.020 even got close. You couldn't be a partner anymore. You could sort of be emeritus, you know, you could

01:33:58.120 be of counsel because they understood that the mind stopped sort of working at its sharpest at a

01:34:03.860 certain age. Was it like that the CIA? Cause that seems more important to me than my law firm. I

01:34:08.920 don't know. Are there any limits, age limits across government? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. We, I mean,

01:34:14.300 there's no, there's no thought to keeping somebody on at 80 years old in the operations

01:34:18.600 directorate, right? I mean, look, you, we retire pilots at a mandatory age. We, we remove CEOs from

01:34:23.940 major corporations in their mid sixties. We take board members off of boards. When they get to a

01:34:29.300 certain age, we rotate out senior military officials. Politics seems to be the only place

01:34:34.960 where we're willing to let somebody stay until they, they, they die in place. And it makes no sense

01:34:42.300 whatsoever. And again, it's not a Democrat or Republican thing. Look at Mitch McConnell. He's got

01:34:46.260 issues, right? So we, we need to have a serious discussion and maybe the focus on this is

01:34:51.320 meaning we're moving in that direction. Mike Baker, good luck with the presidential daily

01:34:56.400 brief. I look forward to listening to you on there. Thank you very much, Megan. I sure appreciate it.

01:35:01.420 Oh, it's great to, great to see you and hear from you again. Uh, okay. To be continued. Thanks to all

01:35:05.920 of you for watching and listening today. Before we go, I want to tell you happily that you will be

01:35:09.640 hearing me for a while longer here on Sirius XM. I've signed a new contract with my friends

01:35:14.960 and I'm thrilled. We hit the two year mark here at triumph today. I love, love, love the people at

01:35:21.480 Sirius, honestly, in all the news world full of scared, spineless cowards. Sirius XM is not among

01:35:31.360 them. They truly believe in free speech and free and open and honest debate, provocative though it

01:35:36.720 may be. And, uh, they've never interfered with our editorial. It's a joy to partner with them.

01:35:41.180 Uh, I'm privileged to be part of the brand and I thank all of you for helping continue, uh, us

01:35:47.500 in our joint mission here with them. Talk to you tomorrow.

01:35:52.620 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - September 07, 2023

Megyn's Trump Interview Next Week, and Potential New Murdaugh Trial, with Ric Grenell, Mike Baker, Jonna Spilbor, and David Wohl ｜ Ep. 622

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