The Megyn Kelly Show - Melania Talks Epstein, and New Tyler Robinson Letter Revealed, Plus New TMZ Nancy Guthrie Notes, with Will Geddes and James Hamilton ｜ Ep. 1293

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00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.360 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Friday.

00:00:47.160 There have been some big updates in the Nancy Guthrie kidnapping case that you may have missed

00:00:51.180 with the war in Iran going on. We will bring you the latest with our expert panel in our second

00:00:56.320 hour. And something you likely did not miss, but we've got to tell you more about, is the first

00:01:02.020 lady of the United States, Melania Trump's previously unannounced remarks yesterday

00:01:06.100 about Jeffrey Epstein, which seemed to come out of nowhere. The first lady taking to the

00:01:11.780 microphones at the White House saying she barely knew Epstein and his accomplished Ghislaine

00:01:17.020 Maxwell, vehemently denying that Epstein had introduced her to President Trump and saying,

00:01:23.180 quote, Epstein was not alone, then calling for public congressional testimony from Epstein's

00:01:30.220 victims. I have to tell you, everybody in the press was like, what, what, what? I mean,

00:01:36.520 it truly was one of those things like, I, I did not have any relationship with Epstein. Okay.

00:01:43.860 Oh, all right. Why are you saying that? Who's, who's saying that you did like this story has

00:01:49.640 kind of come and sort of gone. And certainly your piece in it has come and gone. And you haven't

00:01:55.080 been center stage on the story anyway. It's really been more your husband, not you. Like she got a

00:01:59.540 couple of arrows, but not many. And even the stuff they had on her was kind of peripheral. Like maybe

00:02:05.340 she knew Ghislaine a little. I don't, it was like, eh, there was never like she and Epstein were

00:02:10.100 together or, you know, it was like, why did she do this? That's really what everyone was asking.

00:02:15.540 Why? Like, everyone knows, everyone knows in PR, once the storm has passed, you don't do anything to bring it back upon you. Like, if she doesn't want people talking about her relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell or whatever it was with Epstein, then she shouldn't talk about her relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell or Jeffrey Epstein, especially when has that been in the news?

00:02:42.000 Have any of you been seeing that in the news?

00:02:45.600 The news right now is nonstop Iran.

00:02:48.680 And that's why some people are speculating, was this meant to distract people from Iran?

00:02:53.240 Like, did they use Epstein to distract from Iran and then Iran to distract from Epstein?

00:02:57.780 And then Epstein once again to distract from Iran?

00:03:02.900 I have no idea.

00:03:04.340 But I do know it's very strange that not being at the center of the storm, this woman who has been media savvy now for 10 years decided to make herself at the center of it.

00:03:17.620 And here's a sample of what she said.

00:03:19.180 The lies linking me with the disgraceful Jeffrey Epstein need to end today.

00:03:27.660 The individuals lying about me are devoid of ethical standards.

00:03:34.340 Humility and respect.

00:03:38.240 I've never been friends with Epstein.

00:03:42.660 Donald and I were invited to the same parties as Epstein from time to time,

00:03:50.320 since overlapping in social circles is common in New York City and Palm Beach.

00:03:57.820 My email reply to Maxwell cannot be catered as anything more than casual correspondence.

00:04:09.860 My polite reply to her email doesn't amount to anything more than a tribal note.

00:04:19.540 I am not Epstein's victim.

00:04:22.240 I'm not a witness or a name witness

00:04:27.140 in connection with any of Epstein's crimes

00:04:30.780 The false smears about me

00:04:34.980 from mean-spirited and politically motivated individuals

00:04:39.120 and entities looking to cause damage to my good name

00:04:43.940 to gain financially and climb politically

00:04:47.660 must stop

00:04:49.140 okay i was like i think everybody in the media was like got it but like what was this apropos of

00:04:59.080 like it caused immediate and widespread speculation that some hit piece is about to

00:05:06.340 drop on her that we don't know about and then in media circles on on x people were like who's got

00:05:12.740 it who's working on it let us know did they reach out to the white house for comment is that what

00:05:17.640 led her to do this. She's trying to get ahead of a story. No one's saying that they're working on 0.56

00:05:22.300 it. No one's saying, yeah, I'm about to drop something on her right now. As of this hour,

00:05:27.280 it appears she's responding to just little, little tiny things that had been released about

00:05:35.140 her that again, no one was talking about. Now this happened a while ago and does relate to

00:05:44.220 what she was saying there. Okay. So if she's just kind of had enough, I mean, I'll get to this in a

00:05:49.100 second, but there was an email exchange between someone and Ghislaine Maxwell about Epstein. It

00:05:54.640 was benign. It showed a chummy relationship or seemed to. And we did recently find out that

00:06:00.480 the person whose name was blacked out on it was Melania. And the other person was Ghislaine

00:06:05.020 Maxwell. So it shows somewhat of a chummy relationship enough that they were talking

00:06:09.160 about like, I want to see you. Oh, but I can't make it happen. You know, it wasn't like,

00:06:13.300 obviously they were friendly

00:06:14.240 because you don't try to make plans to see somebody

00:06:16.260 that you don't really know

00:06:18.160 or who's just a mere acquaintance

00:06:19.580 and you never want to spend time with.

00:06:21.380 Okay, but that,

00:06:22.120 so that piece of the Melania Epstein story 1.00

00:06:24.300 got filled out this week.

00:06:25.300 That's it.

00:06:26.380 So we're really scratching our heads

00:06:28.180 about what was it?

00:06:29.520 That couldn't have been it. 0.99

00:06:30.940 This woman has dealt with a firestorm 1.00

00:06:34.440 of media negativity 1.00

00:06:37.480 since Trump first came on the national scene.

00:06:40.300 Like, remember when the Access Hollywood tape broke?

00:06:43.820 It wasn't about Melania, but everybody wanted Melania's reaction because here's her husband on the bus with Billy Bush saying,

00:06:50.600 I just grab him by the you-know-what, and when you're a celebrity, they let you do it.

00:06:54.120 And then there was the Stormy Daniels stuff that came out where she's like, I had an affair with him while he was married to her.

00:06:59.740 And then another People magazine reporter came out and said he tried to make out with her when she was profiling him,

00:07:06.980 and Melania was pregnant with Barron at the time

00:07:11.300 and left the room and he like pinned her against the wall.

00:07:13.680 My point is not to dredge up all this nastiness.

00:07:16.220 It's to tell you she has been at the center

00:07:19.500 of far bigger media storms and almost never talks.

00:07:25.060 Almost never.

00:07:25.740 I think she gave in all that,

00:07:26.580 she gave like one interview to,

00:07:29.020 I think it was Ainsley Earhart of Fox News

00:07:30.820 after Access Hollywood.

00:07:32.640 That's where she said it was locker room talk.

00:07:35.000 But she does not kind of ever feel the need to go explain herself.

00:07:39.720 She's like a royal in that way.

00:07:41.280 You know how the royals never complain, never explain. 0.98

00:07:44.860 That's their motto.

00:07:45.600 It's kind of her motto too.

00:07:47.480 It's more, she's more of the field of like, I really don't care.

00:07:50.200 Do you?

00:07:50.660 You know, the jacket she wore when she went down to the, the immigration's, the separation

00:07:56.300 camps, so-called separation camps.

00:07:58.700 So again, it's so bizarre.

00:08:01.320 So now we've spent the past 18 hours

00:08:03.420 trying to figure out what is it that has upset her

00:08:06.140 if there is something,

00:08:07.880 unless this is just a way of distracting us from something.

00:08:10.680 Okay, this is what we came up with.

00:08:12.820 One of the media organizations

00:08:14.120 that she called out by name yesterday

00:08:16.380 was the Daily Beast, and they are terrible.

00:08:19.460 They were forced to retract a story

00:08:22.120 and podcast comments by the author Michael Wolff,

00:08:26.420 who wrote a book all about Trump

00:08:28.820 with which he cooperated,

00:08:30.160 and then he dumped on immediately after it hit

00:08:32.400 because everybody who cooperates with Michael Wolff

00:08:35.280 learns the hard way, that's a bad idea.

00:08:38.960 Wolff, in those comments on the podcast,

00:08:42.120 again, then the Daily Beast wrote an article about it,

00:08:44.200 both of which have been pulled now, 0.99

00:08:46.240 alleged that Mrs. Trump was, quote,

00:08:48.340 very involved with Epstein

00:08:50.540 and even made a claim about

00:08:53.400 when President Trump and First Lady Melania Trump,

00:08:57.560 who was, you know, then just Melania,

00:08:59.320 I can't remember her last name or maiden name, when they first had sex.

00:09:03.920 Now, keep in mind, Michael Wolff and Jeffrey Epstein spent hours and hours and hours together.

00:09:08.760 I mean, like we know that from the Epstein files.

00:09:10.300 We know that from my own reporting, which I broke to you.

00:09:12.780 And we broke to you the tapes that we had heard in which he was far more than an independent journalist.

00:09:17.580 He was a participant.

00:09:18.740 He was an advisor, a counselor, a rehabilitator, Michael Wolff was.

00:09:22.680 So he had hours and hours with Jeffrey Epstein.

00:09:24.400 And here he is telling the Daily Beast that he knows when Donald and Melania first became intimate.

00:09:30.620 Now, again, the Daily Beast retracted its write-up of that podcast exchange and then edited the comments we're about to play for you out of the podcast after hearing from the First Lady's legal team, writing in an editor's note, quote,

00:09:45.160 After reviewing the matter, the Beast has taken down the article and apologizes for any confusion or misunderstanding.

00:09:52.160 Now, this has all been aired already.

00:09:53.700 This is already out there in the ether.

00:09:55.800 They've pulled it, and clearly they're not standing by it.

00:09:59.220 But she referenced the Daily Beast yesterday, and it seems like this might be what she's mad about.

00:10:07.240 So we clipped the relevant comments before the Daily Beast took them down.

00:10:10.540 This is what we were on this story.

00:10:11.620 Of course, you know, from the beginning, we've been tracking Michael Wolff, what he's been saying, and so on.

00:10:15.760 So you have the full context of her response and what it might be replying to.

00:10:22.160 Here's some of what Michael Wolff said.

00:10:25.260 You know, she was very involved in the Epstein, in this Epstein relationship.

00:10:30.780 I mean, there is this model thing.

00:10:34.020 But, you know, in Epstein talks, talks about, you know, and she's introduced by a model agent, both of whom Trump and Epstein are involved with.

00:10:45.520 She's introduced to Trump that way.

00:10:49.600 Epstein knows her well.

00:10:51.200 The first time Epstein says the first time Donald Trump and Melania have sex is on his

00:10:58.200 airplane.

00:11:00.100 OK, and now here's more from the first lady yesterday, but just to reiterate, ripping 0.99

00:11:05.760 of the Daily Beast, suggesting they've been lying about her, pointing out accurately she

00:11:10.680 has sent legal threats to them and they have responded by pulling down their testimonials

00:11:15.700 about her.

00:11:16.520 So clearly they don't stand by what Michael Wolfe said.

00:11:19.520 I haven't heard Michael Wolff explicitly comment on it one way or another since then, but clearly the Daily Beast is not standing by that and is responding to the lawyer letter.

00:11:30.500 And here's more from the first lady yesterday calling for now congressional testimony from Epstein's victims.

00:11:37.140 And keep in mind, this has been over, like the administration has been doing its level

00:11:43.580 best to move on from Epstein, which clearly is what Trump has wanted for months now.

00:11:50.200 Epstein, who's still talking about Epstein?

00:11:52.960 Then he threatened Lauren Boebert.

00:11:55.540 He threatened Nancy Mace.

00:11:57.140 He threatened Thomas Massey.

00:11:58.920 He threatened MTG when she was still back in Congress, pushing for more disclosures

00:12:02.540 on Epstein.

00:12:03.660 Trump did not want any more coverage of Epstein.

00:12:07.600 And neither did his attorney general.

00:12:09.920 You know that whole story.

00:12:12.000 And we did have a law that he was kind of forced into signing saying, OK, we will have more disclosures from the DOJ, et cetera.

00:12:19.980 And now that's done.

00:12:21.220 And Todd Blanche, who's now the acting AG, said we're done disclosing.

00:12:25.680 AG, DOJ, done disclosing on Epstein, kind of putting an unofficial period to the whole story.

00:12:32.180 Now, the first lady of the United States comes out and demands more hearings. 0.98

00:12:38.120 She wants the alleged victims to go before Congress and testify. 1.00

00:12:44.640 Here, watch.

00:12:45.860 I call on Congress to provide the women who have been victimized by Epstein with a public hearing specifically centered around the survivors.

00:12:56.540 give these victims their opportunity to testify under oath in front of Congress with the power

00:13:06.260 of sworn testimony. Each and every woman should have her day to tell her story in public if she

00:13:15.680 wishes, and then her testimony should be permanently entered into the Congressional record. 1.00

00:13:23.780 then and only then we will have the truth okay so some of these women

00:13:33.460 did testify before congress they went in in september remember some of them stood out

00:13:40.860 in front of the capitol and they spoke into the microphones that the day of that and

00:13:47.560 And like, this has happened already.

00:13:52.100 And now, instead of saying, right on, Melania, thanks for standing up for us and making sure every single one of us can testify before Congress or whatever.

00:14:01.960 I don't really know what Melania is calling for, and I don't know what the victims want at this point either.

00:14:06.740 Most of them have been paid out by this Epstein fund already if they have legit claims or in some cases even if they might not, but we're able to convince somebody.

00:14:16.580 In any event, they're not happy about this.

00:14:19.160 The victims don't seem happy about this.

00:14:21.200 I'm so confused.

00:14:22.120 Are you confused?

00:14:22.800 Me too.

00:14:23.740 They released a statement accusing Mrs. Trump of, quote, shifting the burden onto survivors

00:14:28.560 under politicized conditions to protect those with power.

00:14:34.300 I mean, I think what they're saying is it's your husband's obligation and his administration's

00:14:38.160 obligation to do full disclosure.

00:14:41.220 Everyone has seen what I have seen and I've been telling you about, which is that Epstein

00:14:45.240 law. You know, the law requiring the disclosure has massive, massive loopholes in it. So perhaps

00:14:50.460 that's their reference. They go on to say, quote, survivors of Jeffrey Epstein have already shown

00:14:55.880 extraordinary courage by coming forward, filing reports and giving testimony. Asking more of them

00:15:01.140 now is a deflection of responsibility, not justice. It also diverts attention from former Attorney

00:15:07.700 General Pam Bondi, who must answer for withheld files and the exposure of survivors' identities.

00:15:16.180 Still quoting here. Those failures continue to put lives at risk while shielding enablers.

00:15:22.800 Survivors have done their part. Now it's time for those in power to do theirs.

00:15:28.420 Okay. I don't, I got nothing. I don't, I don't know what she's doing. I do not think that this

00:15:35.640 is a, an attempt to distract from Iran because this is a one day story. I think this is Melania

00:15:41.880 has some beaner bonnet and felt like it was a bigger story than it is. You know, I can speak

00:15:47.860 to this myself when you are the center of negative press attention, that's saying something about you

00:15:55.480 that you know is not true. It is very annoying and it's very tempting to go out there and run

00:16:01.940 to correct the record. But what I have learned over my time in media is if you do that, you just

00:16:08.220 call more attention to the story. Generally, if you ignore news like that, it's like a one day,

00:16:12.620 maybe a one week story and then it goes away. If you comment on it, it definitely makes the story

00:16:18.380 spread, get bigger and stay longer. Now, that's not to say you should never comment on a negative

00:16:23.480 report, but like you should choose your battles because no one was talking about Melania and

00:16:30.820 Jeffrey Epstein this week. And now they are now like the press was totally baffled watching

00:16:39.640 this yesterday. Like they couldn't quite believe what she had done. Um, and you saw tons of like

00:16:46.860 reporters run to the microphone. It's like, Oh my God, what, what is she doing? We were 0.97

00:16:51.200 flabbergasted. We were gobsmacked. Why would she bring this back up again? What's about to draw,

00:16:55.920 So whatever. I don't know what specifically this is about, but I'll read you the bit about her email exchange.

00:17:09.380 OK, let me try to find that for you. First, a word on this.

00:17:13.140 Trump appears to have not had a heads up on this. Trump, the president.

00:17:17.780 They, he specifically told one reporter that he didn't.

00:17:23.500 He was on the record saying he didn't know,

00:17:26.340 didn't know anything about it.

00:17:27.220 And then he hung up on this person.

00:17:29.280 And then he seemed to,

00:17:30.980 then the White House seemed to suggest he did know.

00:17:34.460 So we don't know that either.

00:17:36.100 That is also confusing.

00:17:39.780 Trying, looking for the email.

00:17:43.100 Okay.

00:17:43.580 Okay. So there was an October 23rd, 2002 email to Ghislaine Maxwell. Now we know it was from

00:17:52.120 Melania. Dear G, how are you? Nice story about J.E. in New York Mag. You look great on the picture.

00:17:59.820 I know you are very busy flying all over the world. How was Palm Beach? I cannot wait to go down.

00:18:04.860 Give me a call when you are back in New York. Have a great time. Love, Melania. Again, this is the

00:18:09.640 one that we knew had been written, what the names had been redacted. We only recently found out it

00:18:14.740 was, everyone had speculated it was Ghislaine and Melania. Now we know for sure. Okay, so it proves

00:18:19.580 they knew each other. And they were, as I said, chummy, like not BFFs, but somewhat chummy.

00:18:26.020 The email exchange was sent that week. That New York Magazine published a flattering profile of

00:18:32.000 Jeffrey Epstein that indeed included a photograph of Ghislaine Maxwell with Epstein in it. And thus

00:18:37.720 the reference to you look great on the picture.

00:18:43.220 Ghislaine Maxwell responded, sweet pea, thanks for your message. Actually, plans changed again,

00:18:49.200 and I am now on my way back to New York. I leave again on Friday, so I still do not think I have

00:18:55.060 time to see you, sadly. I will try and call, though. So clearly they wanted to get together.

00:19:01.520 Ghislaine couldn't make it happen. It doesn't appear to really be the case that, you know,

00:19:06.960 Melania had absolutely no connection with Ghislaine.

00:19:10.980 You can kind of tell that.

00:19:12.680 She says she wants to clear her good name.

00:19:16.360 The lies linking me with the disgraceful Jeffrey Epstein need to end today.

00:19:20.740 She says Donald and I were invited to the same parties as Epstein from time to time

00:19:24.700 since overlapping in social circles is common in New York City.

00:19:30.000 She says the first time she ever crossed paths with Epstein was in 2000

00:19:32.900 at an event Donald and I attended together,

00:19:35.920 thus undermining the notion that Epstein introduced them,

00:19:38.240 which some have alleged.

00:19:39.800 Then she says explicitly,

00:19:41.120 Epstein did not introduce me to Donald.

00:19:43.240 I met my husband by chance.

00:19:44.800 The initial encounter with my husband

00:19:46.720 is documented in my book.

00:19:50.140 Okay, so like she wants you to know

00:19:54.340 she didn't really know these people.

00:19:55.900 Got it.

00:19:57.120 A spokesperson for Melania said the president was aware

00:20:00.520 that she was going to make the statement.

00:20:02.180 However, per MS Now and reporter Jacqueline Alamani, she reported yesterday just got off a quick call with President Trump, who said he did not know anything about the First Lady's statement prior to her on-camera appearance.

00:20:17.700 guys this is like beyond effed up like nobody knows what they're like the left hand doesn't

00:20:26.000 know what the right hand is doing melanie's making a statement she's telling the press

00:20:29.260 the president knew the president directly to a reporter at ms now is saying i didn't know

00:20:33.640 anything about it like the spinning and the misleading is just it's kind of out of control

00:20:38.580 and uh as for whether there's going to be more hearings here is uh house oversight committee's

00:20:46.360 top Democrat, Robert Garcia. We agree with First Lady Melania Trump's call for a public

00:20:50.800 hearing with the survivors. We encourage Chairman Comer to respond and to schedule one.

00:20:55.680 Tim Burchett, a Republican, said we look forward to working with the First Lady on this very

00:20:59.340 important issue. Anna Polina Luna, Republican from Florida, says Chairman Comer has agreed

00:21:05.160 to call in the following individuals who were listed as Epstein co-conspirators by the FBI,

00:21:10.160 and she names four people. These are co-conspirators who allegedly worked for Epstein,

00:21:13.620 knew stuff about Epstein, but not the alleged victims. And as I point out, the victims themselves,

00:21:20.080 alleged, are saying, we're done. We did our part. Don't put the burden on us. There was one other

00:21:27.320 thing. She mentioned James Carville by name. He did make an allegedly defamatory statement about

00:21:34.680 her, but it happened last August. He pulled the comments. He pulled them down. And I don't like,

00:21:42.700 okay, I don't know. I think the Carvel, was the Carvel's last August? The Daily Beast thing was

00:21:49.140 last August. But I know that Carvel did delete his own comments. Yeah, and his was also from last

00:21:55.340 August. And he said at the time, we took a look at what they complained about and we took down the

00:21:59.860 video and edited out those comments from the episode. I also take back these statements and

00:22:03.720 apologize. So clearly he had gotten a legal nasty gram and realized he was out on a limb he didn't

00:22:10.460 want to stay on and pulled it. Okay. That's, that's the Melania Epstein. I got, I tell it to

00:22:16.920 you because it's everywhere. We think we figured out what was bothering her, but we cannot believe

00:22:23.240 she did that over that, right? Because it had already been clear that the first lady, there 0.90

00:22:30.800 was the evidence of her knowing Epstein was pretty much non-existent. The evidence of her

00:22:36.800 knowing Ghislaine is there, but minimal. So I'm not sure what was added to this story other than

00:22:43.320 she's pissed, got it, and maybe she's trying to scare people. So we'll see if another shoe drops,

00:22:50.860 somebody else tries to report something about her and they're all unnoticed now. You're going to get

00:22:56.340 it from her lawyers if you try to do that. Okay, moving on. When the dollar's convertibility into

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00:24:03.620 to the number 989898 today. The situation in Iran remains fraught. And now the vice president

00:24:12.700 is on his way to Pakistan for a peace negotiation to try to turn what is a, I mean, let's face it,

00:24:19.240 near non-existent ceasefire. I don't, I can't say it's totally non-existent because

00:24:23.420 we're not bombing Iran right now, so that's good, into a permanent peace. But you'll be shocked, 0.70

00:24:32.360 shocked to learn that Israel is the fly in the ointment. Now, I just want to take you back to 1.00

00:24:37.400 something, okay? Here's what I said literally yesterday at this time. It was like 24, 23 hours

00:24:43.560 ago. We talked about Iran in our second hour. And it was my thoughts on what actually happened

00:24:50.380 around whether Lebanon was supposed to be included in the peace deal, the ceasefire deal.

00:24:56.480 Okay, what happened on Tuesday was Trump said, you have till eight or I'm going to end your

00:25:01.180 civilization. Then out of nowhere, Pakistan emerged as this like peace broker, Henry Kissinger type, 0.53

00:25:08.620 the prime minister, like I'll negotiate something. Seemed clear to me that they were dealing with

00:25:13.260 the White House on that. And when the prime minister of Pakistan announced the ceasefire

00:25:18.880 had been struck in the first bullet point, he mentioned Lebanon and Israel's devastating

00:25:24.640 campaign of bombs upon it would be part of the ceasefire. Israel's been bombing Lebanon because

00:25:31.800 that's where Hezbollah is, and that's an Israeli enemy. Somehow, by like 11 o'clock that night,

00:25:39.500 that had gotten completely stood on its head, and now Israel and the U.S. were claiming Lebanon

00:25:44.920 was not part of the deal

00:25:46.260 and Bibi has not stopped 0.60

00:25:48.200 bombing Beirut since. 0.83

00:25:51.180 It's brutal. 1.00

00:25:53.160 Deb, can we bring over

00:25:54.240 that video of the little girl?

00:25:57.000 It's been absolutely brutal

00:25:58.980 and merciless.

00:26:01.260 Tucker played this

00:26:02.200 on his show the other day.

00:26:03.300 Just look at this.

00:26:03.940 This is so disturbing. 0.99

00:26:05.160 It's a little girl in Beirut

00:26:07.120 scared beyond belief.

00:26:14.920 There are so many videos like this online of children in Lebanon who are scared, who

00:26:38.080 are terrified of Netanyahu's bombs.

00:26:40.300 he he'll you know deliver some warnings saying okay we're coming to bomb your town tomorrow

00:26:45.380 everybody out they have no place to go where do they go um think Israel's gonna take them like

00:26:52.280 where do they go and um you know not everybody gets the message either and then the next thing

00:26:58.920 you know the bombs are raining down upon them allegedly just at Hezbollah locations but many

00:27:04.560 civilians in Lebanon have been saying they've been targeted that their loved ones are being killed

00:27:09.820 and Netanyahu has got the pedal to the metal.

00:27:12.980 He will not stop.

00:27:15.500 So here we were trying to explain this situation yesterday

00:27:19.040 as the White House completely denied

00:27:20.780 that Lebanon was ever supposed to be part of the ceasefire.

00:27:26.660 So it seems clear to me,

00:27:28.420 we did understand that Lebanon was part of the deal. 1.00

00:27:32.620 That's why it wound up as the very first bullet point

00:27:36.440 in the Pakistani prime minister's announcement of the ceasefire. 0.73

00:27:41.480 But then our super great and most important allies, Israel, started bombing or continued bombing Lebanon to the high heavens.

00:27:49.620 They got so excited that a ceasefire was happening, and I mean negatively excited,

00:27:55.900 that they just started a carpet bomb Beirut.

00:28:00.780 And Trump seems to have just kind of gone with, oh, okay, that wasn't part of the deal

00:28:05.060 because he couldn't get Bibi to back down from it. 0.75

00:28:07.100 Like the bloodthirsty Netanyahu was like,

00:28:09.280 oh no, I'm doing it.

00:28:11.040 I wasn't part of this and I didn't agree to it 0.76

00:28:13.480 and I'm bombing them to kingdom come.

00:28:16.720 All right, so now we're kind of pretending, 0.75

00:28:19.000 this is my own view,

00:28:19.920 the White House says it's official,

00:28:21.100 I think it's not true.

00:28:22.580 We're kind of pretending that we agreed

00:28:24.560 Lebanon would not be part of the ceasefire

00:28:26.680 and Iran is on the other side, 0.97

00:28:29.080 like screw you people. 0.94

00:28:30.160 It was part of the deal and the strait is closed. 0.99

00:28:33.740 The strait is closed.

00:28:35.060 And it remains close to the passageway through the Strait of Hormuz now is to say it's a trickle

00:28:40.800 would be to overstate it. Do we have that graph, Steve? Um, this was posted on X where it just

00:28:46.220 shows the, the traffic flow through the Strait of Hormuz where, you know, the green line showing

00:28:50.680 the flow is basically up toward the top of the graph. And then March 1st, uh, you know, basically

00:28:56.820 when we started the war, it just down to the bottom, there's nothing. It's like the, there is

00:29:03.800 no graph. It's just down to the very, very bottom, the fallout. And the economic consequences of that

00:29:10.280 are yet to be felt in full. We felt a little because, you know, the futures traders can see

00:29:14.680 what's going to happen. But the full impact of that massive drop in oil flowing out of the

00:29:21.000 Strait of Hormuz is coming our way. So the Strait of Hormuz is closed. And you had that situation

00:29:29.760 yesterday where the White House is saying we were on board with Bibi the whole time. Lebanon was

00:29:34.000 never part of it. And I tried to tell you that wasn't true. We did agree to that. The prime

00:29:38.060 minister of Pakistan tweeted it out for a reason. His initial tweet showed draft prime minister of

00:29:45.780 Pakistan, which is not how the prime minister of Pakistan would refer to himself, his staff.

00:29:51.900 They would just say prime minister's remarks. They know they're in Pakistan. It clearly came

00:29:57.640 from the White House, which clearly used Pakistan to help save face as Trump tried to get off the

00:30:04.880 civilization will end as they know it tonight stance and to a place of a ceasefire, which was

00:30:10.020 a smart thing to do. Now, what do we get today? CBS News reporting the following. Trump changed

00:30:18.020 position on Lebanon's inclusion and ceasefire deal after call with Bibi. Multiple diplomatic

00:30:24.940 sources at CBS News tell CBS News that President Trump had been told that the ceasefire announced

00:30:31.420 Thursday would apply to the Middle East region, and he agreed that included Lebanon. Mediators

00:30:39.320 believe the ceasefire to include Lebanon, and Pakistani Prime Minister Shabih Sharaf announced

00:30:44.780 that it did. Iran's Foreign Minister Abbas Aragchi also said it was included. On the day of the

00:30:52.500 ceasefire, a White House official told CBS News that Israel had also agreed with the terms of the

00:30:58.400 deal that Pakistan had helped to broker. However, the U.S. position shifted following a phone call

00:31:04.360 between Netanyahu and Mr. Trump. Two sources familiar with the matter told CBS News that the

00:31:09.160 changing U.S. positions and the disjointed remnant of the regime in Iran are making the diplomacy

00:31:14.960 highly complex. And that reporting has been matched by multiple others now. That's exactly

00:31:20.080 what happened. So Netanyahu won't stop. We tried to get a ceasefire throughout the region. Good

00:31:28.780 for us. Good for the Trump administration. But Netanyahu won't allow it. He is bloodthirsty.

00:31:38.300 And then yesterday, Trump gave an interview saying to NBC saying he's going to low key it.

00:31:45.260 All right. I talked to Bibi. He's going to low key it in Lebanon. And immediately after that, Bibi came out to the cameras and said, full force ahead. Full force is a quote. The ceasefire doesn't include Lebanon. Full force with the bombs.

00:32:02.680 these are facts that's what's happening the junior partner refuses to allow the ceasefire to take

00:32:12.000 place and you ask yourselves why is that why is it so important to him to keep going because he

00:32:16.660 doesn't want the ceasefire just like the president's most ardent bloodthirsty supporters

00:32:21.540 who got us into this war don't want the ceasefire they want all-out war with iran going on and on

00:32:29.440 and on and on. They're all lamenting the ceasefire. They're upset about the peace process.

00:32:35.400 They're very quick to point out how insane they see the Iranian demands as. And look,

00:32:41.540 it's a negotiating document. They're starting from one point that Trump knows better than anybody

00:32:45.720 how negotiations go. But they want war. And so does Bibi Netanyahu more than anyone. So we won't

00:32:53.480 stop. And we really need to reevaluate our relationship with this country. We cannot keep

00:33:02.180 getting dragged into these never-ending conflicts or any conflicts thanks to them. We have our own

00:33:09.380 problems to worry about. Now, today, just before we came to air, Yashar Ali, a journalist online,

00:33:18.200 he writes for many publications, Iranian-American, Iranian by origin, but an American,

00:33:24.580 reports the following. The Speaker of Iran's parliament just tweeted that negotiations in

00:33:31.380 Pakistan cannot begin until there is a ceasefire in Lebanon and until Iran's assets are unblocked.

00:33:41.360 Vice President J.D. Vance has already departed for Pakistan and Air Force Two has left U.S.

00:33:46.840 airspace. So where does that leave us? You've got the Speaker of Iran's Parliament. This is the one

00:33:53.680 that Trump says we're negotiating with, that this one we can deal with, said the negotiations in

00:33:59.020 Pakistan cannot begin. It's a no until there's a ceasefire in Lebanon. So what do we do about the

00:34:07.440 junior partner. I really don't know. I just know that this country is a liability for us. Israel

00:34:17.520 is a liability for us. Here were the stats I was looking for in the Strait of Hormuz. 1.00

00:34:23.340 On Wednesday, this is Peter Baker, the New York Times, just four ships, none of them oil tankers

00:34:29.060 passed through the Strait. Remember, that's the day after the ceasefire when things are supposed

00:34:32.720 to be open. Just four ships, none of them oil tankers, passed through the strait, fewer than

00:34:38.660 the day before the ceasefire. And on Thursday, yesterday, just seven ships passed through the

00:34:45.660 strait. That's it. Let's be clear. The head of Abu Dhabi, its oil company said, the Strait of

00:34:53.800 Hormuz is not open. We know. It's definitely not. And it's not going to be open until something

00:35:03.740 significant happens in these negotiations, which now can't start because of Israel,

00:35:10.300 which are made necessary to begin with because of Israel. That's where things are. There are also

00:35:17.880 breaking developments in the Tyler Robinson criminal trial. We've got that for you. I'll

00:35:23.780 update you when we come right back after this. Relief Factor loves hearing from pain-free

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00:36:29.740 Unbelievable news just breaking via the Daily Mail, which you're going to want to go visit

00:36:35.380 directly. It concerns Brian Noem, the husband of Christy Noem, who was our Department of Homeland

00:36:44.320 Security chief up until a couple of weeks ago, one of the most sensitive positions in the U.S.

00:36:50.920 government and trusted. And let's not forget, Homeland Security has been very, very focused on

00:36:57.440 the ICE raids and the removal of illegals. But Homeland Security for most of the past 25 years

00:37:04.640 has been mostly focused on domestic terror attacks, protecting the homeland, determining

00:37:10.500 when to raise and lower the homeland threat level. I mean, very, very serious matters.

00:37:17.040 And unfortunately, it appears that our secretary was absolutely in a compromised position,

00:37:22.860 thanks to her husband, who was openly dealing with these very bizarre 0.98

00:37:29.280 women who cater to men's bimbo fetish and had been charging Brian Noem a fair amount of money, 0.99

00:37:40.660 thousands, thousands of dollars to interact with him, to have like saucy talk and picture 0.99

00:37:47.820 exchanges with them, all while he was at a minimum careless about the fact that he was the Homeland

00:37:54.300 security spouse, and then ultimately open about it. You can see in the text messages that have

00:38:01.600 been released and that we've reported on directly that he doesn't care. Ultimately, he doesn't care

00:38:06.860 if these alleged, like bimbo is a term of art here. It's not an insult. It's like they go by it. 0.99

00:38:13.100 It's how they get these people to pay them money and they make their breasts like beyond large. 1.00

00:38:18.060 We talked about one yesterday or two days ago who had a size N bra, N, N like Nancy,

00:38:24.900 that large, N. And so the Daily Mail has just dropped a piece with audio of Brian Noem and 0.56

00:38:35.740 one of his bimbos. Again, forgive the use of the term, feels derogatory, but this is what they 0.99

00:38:42.060 go by. This woman, her actual name, clearly she's spoken to the Daily Mail, is Shai. I'm not sure

00:38:51.060 if that's her given name, but in any event, is Shai Sotomayor. Shai Sotomayor. But she goes by

00:38:57.640 Raelynn Riley. She has extra large 2,500 CC breast implants. The woman that we showed you the other 1.00

00:39:05.120 day had 4,000 CCs, 4,000. I mean, this is like insane. So here's this woman with 2,500. She's

00:39:13.440 five feet tall, and she shared dozens of phone recordings with the Daily Mail along with online

00:39:20.040 messages revealing her conversations with the now 56-year-old insurance company executive

00:39:25.140 who used the alias Jason Jackson, but many of his payments became under his real name,

00:39:33.440 which is how virtually all these women figured out who it was.

00:39:36.160 Like, it doesn't seem actually to have been much of a secret.

00:39:39.540 And the Daily Mail indeed confirms, we've confirmed that the reports that they've confirmed the telephone number was Brian's,

00:39:45.620 who also paid for their conversations using an email under the pseudonym, this is Brian's pseudonym, 0.98

00:39:51.040 Crystal Balls, B-A-L-L-Z 666, and admitted to the alleged bimbos, 0.74

00:39:59.520 he would like to be referred to by the name Crystal. 0.99

00:40:02.560 Didn't I say when this story broke that he was going to transition within a year?

00:40:06.480 I said it.

00:40:07.140 I said it at least to my team.

00:40:08.420 I can't remember whether I said it to you guys.

00:40:10.060 I said, this guy's going to transition within at least a year.

00:40:12.800 Okay, we've got two of the recordings for you.

00:40:15.180 You can get the full thing over at Daily Mail.

00:40:17.340 Here's number one.

00:40:18.980 So much better than...

00:40:20.520 I think actually we go to dinner at a trusted place and we go to Serendipity for dessert.

00:40:27.880 Ooh.

00:40:28.320 I think we should go there for dessert.

00:40:32.380 Yeah.

00:40:34.160 And I would bow to you.

00:40:38.280 What if people saw us together? 0.99

00:40:42.700 I don't give a f***. 0.90

00:40:44.500 Not even if you got recognized? 0.99

00:40:47.540 I don't care.

00:40:50.640 Do you know what I want?

00:40:52.220 What?

00:40:54.020 To be seen with you.

00:40:55.320 Yeah.

00:40:57.540 Mm-hmm. 0.99

00:40:58.320 I don't give a fuck about anything else. 0.99

00:41:01.620 Yeah. 0.98

00:41:02.780 It's time we'd be seen together.

00:41:05.280 You told me you loved me, didn't you?

00:41:10.780 I do love you.

00:41:13.860 Oh, my Lord.

00:41:15.860 I mean, this is so uncomfortable.

00:41:18.340 Like, why did he do this?

00:41:20.200 Why would he take these risks?

00:41:22.100 This is so reckless and irresponsible.

00:41:24.360 By the way, she's still in the government. 0.70

00:41:27.060 She's still in the government. 1.00

00:41:29.700 Clearly that's going to have to end.

00:41:32.040 I'm sorry.

00:41:33.140 I don't want any harm, more harm to come to her.

00:41:37.360 But like, how, how can she keep going

00:41:39.780 given these recordings?

00:41:41.460 It's just, it's beyond.

00:41:42.780 I'm sorry that she's married to this.

00:41:44.980 I really genuinely am sorry for her

00:41:46.700 that she's married to this.

00:41:49.080 But this is not a marriage.

00:41:50.920 It's not.

00:41:52.480 This is not a marriage

00:41:53.900 when he keeps calling these women 1.00

00:41:56.160 and paying thousands of dollars for them to talk dirty to him.

00:41:59.760 And he's going by crystal.

00:42:01.580 And here's some more, okay, from the Daily Mail report.

00:42:04.860 He's heard professing his subservience to Raelynn,

00:42:08.900 who wasn't shy in dissing his wife,

00:42:11.980 and in particular in criticizing her handling of aggressive ice operations in Minneapolis.

00:42:15.660 Oh, good to know she's civic-minded.

00:42:18.740 Maybe that's, he was just doing some research on the common woman

00:42:21.720 and her feelings about the efforts of his wife.

00:42:25.340 In fact, Brian was apparently so unfazed by Sotomayor, again, her real name, ridiculing

00:42:31.440 Kristi Noem that he told the dominatrix she was, quote, so much better than his wife and

00:42:38.000 that he didn't think his family stands a chance compared to her.

00:42:43.200 In the end, Sotomayor said Brian's demands for her attention grew so desperate that by

00:42:48.520 late March, she started cutting back on their paid online and phone sessions. 1.00

00:42:52.520 I mean, what does it say about you when you're so needy that your paid bimbo doesn't want to talk to you anymore? 1.00

00:42:58.500 He needed to just talk and talk, she tells the male. 0.95

00:43:01.460 And it felt more personal than I was comfortable with. 0.92

00:43:04.180 She's 30 years old. 0.99

00:43:05.300 She's from Colorado Springs, the male reports, and made tens of thousands of dollars off the relationship.

00:43:12.100 Again, our reporting is that he had multiple women who he was doing this with and at least one who was trans.

00:43:18.160 He paid for her enormous breast implants, which had to be tens of thousands in surgeries.

00:43:25.120 He was spending like a drunken sailor.

00:43:28.260 I mean, it's like this guy was out of control.

00:43:30.940 Even after dominatrix Sotomayor discovered his true identity late last year, Brian seemed

00:43:36.540 unconcerned, saying it doesn't matter.

00:43:40.140 She texted him, F your family. 0.96

00:43:43.080 This is in November, later calling the whole Gnome clan, quote, gross. 0.52

00:43:48.640 Love that, he responded.

00:43:51.720 Love that.

00:43:53.060 F your family.

00:43:54.760 Love that.

00:43:55.880 This is so hurtful.

00:43:57.740 Like his kids are going to see this.

00:43:59.940 They're all, he has three kids with Christy.

00:44:01.500 They're all in their 20s now.

00:44:02.500 I'm sure they've been devastated

00:44:04.200 because while I believe Christy Noem knew,

00:44:07.120 there's no way the kids knew.

00:44:08.460 I just don't believe the kids knew this.

00:44:10.820 This would be the kind of thing

00:44:11.740 you'd want to hide from your even adult children.

00:44:14.520 And now it's all over the papers.

00:44:15.900 It's all over everywhere.

00:44:17.280 It's ubiquitous. Everyone knows now. And it's this bad that she writes, F your family. And he

00:44:24.080 responds, love that. I don't even know what that means. Besides the fact of who your wife is,

00:44:30.580 no one's prettier than me. No one is as powerful. She continued. Effing true. He responds. Do you

00:44:38.260 want me to be a woman? Oh Lord. Do you want to be a woman for me? She asked. Do you want to be a

00:44:47.080 woman for me? What are you trying to tell me, Crystal? He responds, I think I do. I think I do.

00:44:55.600 In a recording of a phone conversation they had weeks later, Brian can be heard telling Sotomayor

00:45:01.120 that he loved her. So much better than your wife, aren't I, she asked. You're so much better,

00:45:08.000 he said. I mean, what is it like, what is it like to be Kristi Noem and have to read this?

00:45:15.540 just a correction to what I just said. He, he paid for the enormous breast implants to be fixed

00:45:21.340 on the trans person, but he was shelling out clearly a lot, a lot of money. And now these

00:45:27.700 recordings, I mean, he sounds, he sounds pathetic. Um, she's her current position. I got, I had this 0.97

00:45:35.920 in front of me earlier. Hold on. Let me see if I can find it, but she is still in the government

00:45:40.840 in, okay, let's see if I can find it.

00:45:48.060 She's in some group that is basically made up.

00:45:52.520 She's a special envoy for the Shield of Americas,

00:45:56.740 special envoy for the Shield of Americas,

00:45:58.700 which nobody knows what that is, but she's still there.

00:46:02.460 The Daily Mail had reported just this week 1.00

00:46:05.140 that she was hemorrhaging staff.

00:46:06.920 She tried to bring a bunch of people over from DHS

00:46:08.980 and many of them are gone.

00:46:12.660 Four officials were placed on administrative leave

00:46:14.960 on orders from the White House.

00:46:17.140 Remaining staffers have stopped showing up

00:46:18.840 to her new office.

00:46:21.140 She's withdrawn from public view.

00:46:23.280 Sources tell us, reports the mail,

00:46:24.620 at least four of these officials who followed her

00:46:26.260 were placed on admin leave.

00:46:28.560 They include former deputy chief of staff,

00:46:31.100 her ex-deputy general counsel,

00:46:32.780 and two junior staffers.

00:46:34.420 Senior State Department officials tell the Daily Mail

00:46:36.320 Noam has had only one meeting this week,

00:46:38.760 which was conducted virtually. Her remaining staff were either dispersed throughout the main

00:46:43.140 State Department headquarters or working from home. The staff's already been cut in half.

00:46:47.460 They have no clear sense of direction. And some in the administration now do not expect Noam to

00:46:52.800 survive in her new job. This is before the recordings, according to insiders. Her new

00:46:57.800 office was established to combat drug cartels, international criminal organizations, and migrant

00:47:03.140 crime in the Western Hemisphere by coordinating with Homeland Security, the State Department and

00:47:08.820 the Pentagon. However, there were simply no clear rules or responsibilities for many of the staff

00:47:14.240 brought over. The administrative leave, if anything, is an opportunity for folks to figure

00:47:18.900 out what they're doing, whether that be at the Shield of the Americas, the State Department or

00:47:23.200 wherever. That's that's all we know. Her office is small. Are they going to describe it? This is

00:47:29.920 like, I'm sorry that it's come to this, but she's obviously not going to be able to stay in this

00:47:34.140 post. The marriage clearly has been over for a long time. I don't know why they're living this

00:47:39.900 sham. It makes your skin crawl. This is such an utter betrayal. I really just think this is a

00:47:45.000 disgusting betrayal. This is serial cheating. And once you know you're married to a serial

00:47:51.300 cheater, your marriage is over. It is over. I know some people have made it. Some people choose to

00:47:58.540 like get therapy, work their way through it. Good for you. That is the 1%. In 99% of the cases,

00:48:04.480 it would be impossible to rebuild trust if you found out your spouse was doing this and you

00:48:09.940 actually had to listen to these recordings. And I just, I think we are now within six months of

00:48:15.060 getting the Brian Gnomah's transitioning announcement along with separation and

00:48:19.260 divorce for those two. I'm praying for them. I mean, especially her. He's got it. I don't know

00:48:24.180 what, but I, this is the whole thing. Okay. Got to move on. Uh, we're going to take another quick

00:48:28.260 break. We're going to come back and we are going to do a deep dive with our panel today on Nancy

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00:49:49.960 Turning now to the latest in the Nancy Guthrie investigation with quite a few developments to

00:49:56.080 get to. TMZ reporting just two days ago that they received two additional notes from the person

00:50:04.780 claiming to know the identity of the alleged kidnapper. Okay, so you remember, just to be

00:50:09.300 clear, we had ransom notes that came in the first week Nancy was missing, that the FBI was treating

00:50:15.360 as legit, that Savannah later told us she viewed as legit. Then we had some other person bomb in

00:50:22.700 just to TMZ saying, I know who the kidnappers are. And for the low, low price of one Bitcoin,

00:50:30.460 I will tell you. So this guy's not saying I know, he's not saying I have her and it's me. He's

00:50:36.440 saying, I know who has her. And I'll give you all the info for one Bitcoin. The messages from

00:50:44.900 I guess I'll just call him ransom note writer number two, okay? He's ransom note writer number

00:50:52.300 two. Those messages were sent the very same day, well, the newest ones, that Savannah Guthrie

00:50:59.080 returned to the Today Show this past Monday, okay? So this person had already sent a couple

00:51:03.400 being like, look over here. I know who did it. Hey, no one's taking me seriously. I'm getting

00:51:07.880 pissed. And then on Monday, two more, two more. So this guy is not going silent. The person who

00:51:14.820 wrote the, you know, ransom note writer number one, who we think may indeed have been the kidnapper,

00:51:20.840 has gone totally silent. That person wrote not one, but two notes during the first week

00:51:25.860 and then disappeared. This guy's now written, I think, four, and he's not going to be ignored.

00:51:32.880 He's unhappy that no one's taking him seriously, and he's taking it out on Harvey Levin of TMZ.

00:51:39.200 All right, now, here's Harvey Levin. He's discussing the first note that he received this Monday, this past Monday. It's not the first note ever from this ransom note number two guy. It's, again, I think that guy had already written him at least two prior ones. But it's the first one this week. And here's Harvey describing it.

00:51:58.180 We got another letter today from this person, an email saying, I know where her body is and who the kidnapper is.

00:52:08.580 Give us give me half a Bitcoin and I'll tell you.

00:52:11.440 And this person has been really persistent, knowing that if it's a scam, it's a federal crime.

00:52:19.660 Right. But they also made the point that they wanted to make it clear that they have nothing to do with it.

00:52:24.280 Right. They've been out of the country. But who knows?

00:52:27.180 We forwarded it to the FBI, as we have in the past, and for whatever reason, and this is the thing we haven't figured out, you have to assume that the law enforcement, they believe that this person is not legit.

00:52:39.960 Otherwise, they would have advised Savannah to pay the money.

00:52:45.340 My spidey senses tell me that there's something about this guy, because one of the emails he sent said early on, time is of the essence to do this.

00:52:55.880 And then the next day, he said time is no longer of the essence.

00:52:59.820 If he was pulling a scam, why would you say time is no longer of the essence?

00:53:05.260 You know, you want to keep the value high.

00:53:06.880 You want to keep the value high.

00:53:08.220 And the fact that he said this made me think this guy knows something.

00:53:14.500 Later that same day, Monday, a few days ago, the TMZ reporting that it received a second note from this same person.

00:53:24.380 this second ransom note writer.

00:53:27.180 This one claims the person, quote,

00:53:29.100 saw Nancy alive with them,

00:53:32.340 we don't know who them is,

00:53:33.760 in the state of Sonora, Mexico.

00:53:36.760 Now, TMZ notes that the sender

00:53:38.440 is clearly not suggesting that Nancy is still alive

00:53:41.880 because it reports that one of the messages

00:53:44.860 from this guy allegedly writes,

00:53:47.180 quote, she is dead.

00:53:49.840 But the guy's claiming to have seen her alive

00:53:52.540 in Sonora, Mexico,

00:53:53.660 but is allegedly also adding that now she is dead.

00:53:58.220 Okay, so again, that's from someone

00:54:00.280 who doesn't purport to be the kidnapper

00:54:02.040 but purports to know something about who they are.

00:54:07.040 While Levin and his team continue to debate

00:54:09.460 the credibility of the source,

00:54:11.840 he later went on with Ashley Banfield

00:54:13.760 and they started talking about the original ransom notes

00:54:22.000 from ransom note writer number one.

00:54:25.340 And she was probing him on what was in those notes

00:54:28.660 because those were all taking a lot more seriously.

00:54:32.340 This other guy, I don't know.

00:54:33.740 We'll ask our panel what they think

00:54:34.940 in the wake of this new info.

00:54:36.920 But those first two notes that came,

00:54:39.000 you remember these are the ones that said,

00:54:40.640 pay us off by Thursday and the price will be 4 million

00:54:43.800 or pay us off by this upcoming Monday,

00:54:47.220 which would have been eight days after her kidnapping

00:54:49.280 and the price will be 6 million.

00:54:51.200 Those are the, you know, ransom note writer number one.

00:54:55.680 That's what he apparently wrote in his two.

00:54:58.020 So Harvey spoke with Ashley Banfield about those notes and listened to this exchange.

00:55:04.780 They you heard from the FBI that they believed those first two overtures were really from the kidnappers as opposed to scammers overseas or some ne'er-do-well?

00:55:16.040 Yes, but and they are from the same person.

00:55:18.100 holy cow. So when Savannah said that, she must have had that indication from the FBI. They must

00:55:24.440 have told her that they thought that they were real. Yeah. Now, what I don't understand is that

00:55:28.980 she was going to pay and she and for whatever reason, they backed off. They had a reason for

00:55:34.020 backing off. And I know they they did something. I don't feel comfortable saying it, but they did

00:55:43.380 because they had asked me not to way back then. I don't know if it's changed at this point.

00:55:48.100 But they thought they had a way of tracking that Bitcoin address didn't work as you look.

00:55:54.160 And they said in the letter that they would kill her if they didn't get the six million by that Monday.

00:56:01.040 So it's unclear whether this was foul play or she died because, you know, she was ill.

00:56:06.480 She didn't have her meds. So I have no idea.

00:56:09.540 The ransom letters did threaten to kill her. Yes. 0.51

00:56:13.040 now that's obviously dark we kind of thought they might have because you know there's always an

00:56:22.060 implicit or else in the letter from a kidnapper demanding money but there's a lot in there and I

00:56:29.200 just want to want to add a little something here okay because you heard him say the FBI thought

00:56:36.540 he said the FBI believes those first two are from the real kidnapper now we kind of gleaned that

00:56:41.880 when Savannah said, I tend to believe that those first two were real, were legit. And we said

00:56:48.940 explicitly to you on this show, that must mean the FBI believes that, because that's where her

00:56:53.200 information is coming from. And now we get Harvey confirming that the FBI believes those first two

00:56:58.720 notes were from the real kidnapper. And so, of course, the next question is, why didn't they pay?

00:57:06.060 If they all believed those notes demanding $4 million and then $6 million were from the real

00:57:11.160 kidnapper, why didn't the family pay the ransom? And wouldn't that have been a great follow-up

00:57:17.660 question for Hoda Kotb to ask Savannah if she could get past her own sniffling and fake crying?

00:57:24.500 Maybe we could have gotten that, but we didn't. So Harvey adds on that they were going to pay,

00:57:32.340 but they backed off for some reason. That's very interesting. I had never heard that. The family

00:57:36.960 was going to pay, but backed off for some reason. And then he speculates there saying,

00:57:42.940 maybe it was because, is really what he's intimating, that the FBI thought it had a way

00:57:49.560 of tracking the person writing those notes. Because remember, the person writing those notes

00:57:55.620 was also demanding to be paid in Bitcoin. And there was a Bitcoin account number in those

00:58:00.400 first two notes. And he said they thought they had a way of tracking that person and the account.

00:58:06.960 but it, quote, did not work.

00:58:08.800 And he said he didn't want to reveal too much.

00:58:11.320 He promised them that he wouldn't, but it didn't work.

00:58:15.320 Well, he already revealed,

00:58:18.380 and the local Tucson station that got the second note,

00:58:22.800 remember there was the first note saying

00:58:23.800 for a million or six million, and we've got her.

00:58:25.840 And then there was a follow-up, second note,

00:58:27.640 that only went to one Tucson local station.

00:58:30.140 We know very little about it,

00:58:31.420 other than it was from the same person

00:58:33.860 and it had the same Bitcoin account.

00:58:35.560 We've had some debates about some unconfirmed reports about what was in it, but we don't

00:58:40.580 know what was in it.

00:58:42.100 In any event, a local station, so Harvey did report at the time that the FBI was considering

00:58:48.760 doing something with the Bitcoin account to track the guy.

00:58:52.200 And the local station expanded on Harvey's reporting.

00:58:56.680 He may have forgotten that he said that because there with Ashley, he's like, you know, I

00:59:00.580 don't want to disclose.

00:59:01.200 I don't want to say what they did to try to track the Bitcoin account that was in the first two notes.

00:59:08.200 Well, here's what he said back on February 10th.

00:59:11.120 Listen to this.

00:59:12.060 It's not 23C.

00:59:13.500 We're now 24 hours and 25 minutes past the deadline for that payment.

00:59:18.180 And I know you have still been checking for any payments.

00:59:21.300 What are you seeing?

00:59:21.940 so um about 12 minutes ago uh we saw activity in that account

00:59:31.960 activity like what

00:59:36.940 that's what i can't talk about um there are reasons i can't but all i can say is there is now activity

00:59:47.100 activity in that Bitcoin account. OK, now let me just ask one more question and you'll share with

00:59:53.160 me what you can. But when you say activity, is that that you can see money is going into the

00:59:57.500 account or are you able to tell whether it's money going in or going out? Well, it would only show,

01:00:04.660 as I understand this, money going in. And the only thing you would see is money. And Aaron,

01:00:10.820 that's all I can say. Now that led many to speculate, has the family paid the money?

01:00:17.880 Did they pay? But then KGUN, which is the local Tucson station that got the second note,

01:00:25.860 added to Harvey's reporting. They confirmed shortly after that report he delivered on CNN

01:00:31.740 that there was activity in the Bitcoin account, the one that was listed in the ransom email,

01:00:38.360 and that that activity is, quote, less than $300.

01:00:43.200 And there was speculation on this show and elsewhere

01:00:47.160 at the time that maybe that was the feds

01:00:50.620 trying to basically get the kidnapper

01:00:55.840 to take the money out of the account

01:00:59.680 and to be able to track them.

01:01:03.100 So that, again, Harvey reported that on February 10th.

01:01:06.940 That was a Tuesday.

01:01:08.360 It was the day after all the deadlines had expired.

01:01:13.280 Remember, because it was supposed to be on Thursday, the 5th, was the first deadline for $4 million, and I think Monday, the 9th, was the second deadline for $6 million.

01:01:24.320 And so this is Tuesday, the 10th, with Harvey saying some amount had been deposited into the alleged kidnapper's account, and Kagan adding to that saying it was under $300.

01:01:37.700 And that is what he clearly is now expanding to Ashley Banfield saying they thought they

01:01:46.120 had a way of tracking the person who was sending those first two notes, but it did not work.

01:01:54.200 And he does reveal to Ashley that they did write, the actual kidnappers, if that's who

01:01:58.920 it was, wrote in their letter that they would kill Nancy if they didn't get paid.

01:02:04.920 So there's so many questions here.

01:02:06.780 We're going to bring in our panel to react.

01:02:08.600 Will Geddes is here.

01:02:09.320 He's a security expert and elite bodyguard and kidnapping expert, too.

01:02:13.720 And James Hamilton, who's a former FBI supervisory special agent.

01:02:17.680 Guys, great to see you again.

01:02:18.820 A lot in there.

01:02:20.760 Confusing, but I think we're all up to speed because we know what's happening in this case.

01:02:24.220 Will, as our kidnapping guy, we'll start with you on your reaction to the latest.

01:02:29.500 Well, I don't put a lot of credibility into Harvey's reporting on this

01:02:34.060 in terms of some of the information he's sharing.

01:02:37.080 And I think certainly making it fairly more mysterious

01:02:40.740 about obviously the activity on the actual Bitcoin account.

01:02:44.860 And I'm with you, Megan, completely.

01:02:46.680 This is the sort of thing I would do.

01:02:48.280 You deposit a very small amount into that Bitcoin account,

01:02:51.080 see whether it gets picked up,

01:02:52.880 and then you follow the trail from there.

01:02:55.180 But I think the reason why no ransom has been paid to date,

01:02:58.420 regardless of whatever threats have been made,

01:03:00.500 is fundamentally down to a lack of proof of life.

01:03:04.060 Now, you and I, we've spoken about this before.

01:03:06.560 I've done the negotiation on cases where, unfortunately, the hostage has died,

01:03:12.240 and that would be to retrieve the body.

01:03:14.400 Now, there are many, many different ways I think they can come at it right now.

01:03:18.440 I don't think the trail is necessarily cold.

01:03:20.720 I think it is cold in terms of Pima County. 0.71

01:03:23.860 I think they're utterly useless and beyond any kind of sense or reason, 0.61

01:03:28.620 and I'm sure we're going to come on to that. 0.84

01:03:30.580 But I think in terms of the fact that they've got Sonora in Mexico

01:03:33.620 as a location, potentially, of where Nancy has been witnessed,

01:03:38.860 certainly moving about or being with certain kidnappers,

01:03:42.600 I think there's some things you can do down there.

01:03:45.020 And I think if there is any credibility

01:03:47.160 to some of the claims that have been made,

01:03:50.460 there's inevitably going to be, number one,

01:03:53.460 they could have duplicated across many of those ransom requests.

01:03:57.240 So it may not just be separate people.

01:03:58.960 It could be one person who's masquerading as a couple.

01:04:02.260 And I think also the other issue, which is really key, is the fact that it's an individual who is unwilling really to help, even in an instance where he says or they claim that Nancy has now died, that they are willing to necessarily help without some sort of payment, which would say to me they're connected to the kidnappers.

01:04:21.960 hmm okay that's so interesting so just to be clear because it's very confusing

01:04:26.340 the ransom note writer number one who the fbi thinks is legit according to harvey said we are

01:04:34.860 threatening to kill nancy yeah but did not say they had killed nancy or at least they may have

01:04:40.580 but we haven't heard that from harvey or from the fbi ransom note writer number two who we

01:04:48.580 who says, I don't have Nancy, but I know who has Nancy, says she's dead, says she was alive

01:04:56.120 and time is of the essence for you to make this Bitcoin payment to me. Otherwise something bad

01:05:01.980 is going to happen. And then the next day comes out and says, she's dead. Now she's dead. And

01:05:06.840 Harvey, you may have heard in one of those soundbites says, James, why would he, if he's a

01:05:14.160 scammer, the second guy, saying, give me a Bitcoin and I'll tell you who did it, why would he say

01:05:20.160 she's dead? Like, that doesn't sound like a scammer. A scammer would be keeping his fake

01:05:26.480 kidnapping victim that he's got all the information about alive to keep the incentive to pay him

01:05:31.500 alive. Well, there's a couple of things also that Harvey's saying. One is persistent. He kept saying

01:05:38.920 this individual is persistent which i equate to you know obsessive and obsessive is usually what

01:05:46.180 you find with stalkers and people who are mentally not the same as you and me and so those are the

01:05:52.340 things i was keying in on and you know live or dead she know or the person number two that you

01:05:58.900 keep you know as we're separating these two note note writer number two they just want some money 1.00

01:06:04.980 Dead, alive, it doesn't matter.

01:06:06.900 Half of Bitcoin is, what, 36 grand?

01:06:09.700 It's not a lot of money.

01:06:11.060 And so they're grabbing at straws here.

01:06:14.180 I don't, you know, I feel like the second one, it feels very scammy to me.

01:06:19.480 The first one's interesting.

01:06:21.280 I certainly would like to talk about that a little bit more.

01:06:23.980 But number two, no, I think it, Harvey's not correct.

01:06:26.960 I think it's consistent with a scammer.

01:06:29.260 hmm all right let me tell you what the what ransom note writer number two has sent because

01:06:35.660 by my calculation now it's a total of five notes um the one who we're calling a scammer he doesn't

01:06:41.420 like to be called that james okay wednesday wednesday february 11th was the first one

01:06:48.460 was a new note demanding one bitcoin for information on nancy's case sent to tmz just

01:06:55.100 before 6 a.m. and the sender claimed that they had been unsuccessful in reaching nancy's kids

01:07:00.500 cameron and annie by email and text tmz reported okay um that the note reads if they want the name

01:07:07.080 of the individual involved then i want one bitcoin to the following wallet time is more than relevant

01:07:13.420 there is a legitimate bitcoin address in this note it is a different one from the one that was in

01:07:18.120 the original two ransom notes, the ones that we think may have been legit.

01:07:23.900 Okay, then comes the next day, Thursday, February 12th. He writes again, just after 9 a.m., TMZ

01:07:30.620 receives a second email from the same person as the day before. They complain, this person,

01:07:34.180 I am not being taken seriously. They say he makes some ominous statements in the email,

01:07:42.600 reported TMZ. TMZ was cooperating with law enforcement by not disclosing the specifics.

01:07:48.100 One thing he makes clear, the situation has changed from Wednesday to Thursday.

01:07:52.040 Harvey's now revealing that on Wednesday he said she was alive and on Thursday he said she was dead.

01:07:57.920 As for why the guy wants a Bitcoin, he says he will need money to lay low after identifying the kidnapper for fear of retaliation.

01:08:04.840 He also worries he might be, quote, incriminated like that Carlos, the delivery man who was detained and released by cops, like that guy.

01:08:13.180 He ends by saying this is his final attempt to help until the next day, February 13th, where he writes again.

01:08:24.080 And TMZ reports they just received a third email from the man who claims he knows the identity of the kidnappers.

01:08:28.980 He has upped his price.

01:08:30.820 The email says he's contacting TMZ because he doesn't trust law enforcement.

01:08:34.260 He's using TMZ as an intermediary, telling authorities, you don't trust me and I don't trust you.

01:08:40.280 There's another important change, reports TMZ.

01:08:42.520 He says when he gets the initial payment, because now remember he was like, I want half a Bitcoin now and half later.

01:08:49.620 When he gets the initial payment, he will give up the name of the main individual.

01:08:55.060 Referring to the main individual clearly suggests there are accomplices.

01:08:59.400 He refers to the current state of Nancy Guthrie, will not be specific.

01:09:03.020 So again, he appears by now to be saying she has died.

01:09:06.600 That's number three.

01:09:07.680 Then we get to number four, Sunday, February 15th.

01:09:12.060 So that's four letters in as many days.

01:09:16.040 And there he claimed at 9.36 p.m.,

01:09:21.780 I know what I saw five days ago south of the border,

01:09:25.160 and I was told to shut up so I know who he is,

01:09:28.540 and that was definitely Nancy with them.

01:09:32.460 So again, trying to titillate.

01:09:34.500 And then finally we get to what technically now are notes five and six,

01:09:38.620 but as of this week would be one and two,

01:09:40.560 which we went through where he demands for one Bitcoin to deliver them on a silver platter

01:09:46.220 saying the offer still stands. He's not suggesting Nancy's still alive. In the first note, he does

01:09:52.740 say she is dead. The first letter says it's unbelievable that millions have been wasted.

01:09:58.640 And yet here I am willing to deliver them on a silver platter since the 11th of February for a

01:10:03.740 Bitcoin, but I am disregarded as a scam. They are free and the case is frozen, but the egos remain

01:10:11.800 hot when it comes to me. Arrogance at its finest. Just FYI, the wrong use of the possessive of the

01:10:20.500 apostrophe twice in that last phrase. They are free and the case is frozen, but the egos remain

01:10:26.580 hot, egos is E-G-O apostrophe S, incorrectly. When it comes to me, arrogance at its finest,

01:10:34.900 that its should be I-T-S. Instead, he puts an apostrophe between the T and the S.

01:10:39.620 So I'm not sure how well-educated our guy here is. And then in this same note, the first of this

01:10:47.040 week, but the fifth overall, he tries to distance himself from Nancy's kidnapping, claiming that

01:10:52.520 he's been out of the U.S. for more than five years and had nothing to do with the, quote, horrific

01:10:57.320 crime. Then Harvey talks about the note on TMZ, and the person sends a second one, or again,

01:11:03.660 by our count now, the sixth, writing, I saw her alive with them in the state of Sonora, Mexico,

01:11:09.840 and says he's not motivated by greed, insisting, I just want what's fair and to live peacefully

01:11:16.120 with enough to start my life again quietly without having to join a witness protection

01:11:20.400 program. There's a lot in there. All right. So we're going to stick with the six, the six notes

01:11:26.360 before we get to what's the most interesting, which is the two that we now know the FBI considers

01:11:30.620 legit. Why? I mean, Will, can you expand on your theory that this guy, he may in fact be

01:11:37.600 the actual kidnapper or connected to the actual kidnapper?

01:11:42.760 Yeah, that's not uncommon, Megan. You will have individuals that will try and take on various

01:11:48.000 different personas. And it's almost like casting the widest net they possibly can to see who is

01:11:53.960 going to bite and under what particular narrative are people going to bite. But I'm with James on

01:12:00.400 this one. I think this individual is a scammer. There's a lot of desperation behind this. And 0.79

01:12:06.580 there's no substantive evidence that's being given to support his claims that he's either

01:12:11.940 seen Nancy, or he's actually, he knows her specific whereabouts. Now, anybody, unless he's

01:12:18.680 actually disconnected or not connected to the actual kidnappers, it is someone that has literally

01:12:26.200 been within the vicinity where they witnessed Nancy. I would say this individual is still

01:12:32.000 involved in some degree of criminality, because otherwise they would work with law enforcement.

01:12:36.520 I'm sure Savannah, I'm sure the Bureau would work very well with him, and Savannah would be more

01:12:40.920 than willing to pay some kind of bounty, probably more than $35,000 to retrieve her mother's body

01:12:47.600 so that they can give her a civilized funeral. Now, the biggest issue that I have is the fact

01:12:54.360 that there's been zero proof of life. There's been zero substantive evidence. And until someone can

01:12:58.920 actually give that, and I've had individuals who have, again, once you start negotiating

01:13:03.940 onto a new platform where the hostage is actually dead, everybody accepts that they're dead.

01:13:09.720 They don't make any bones about it.

01:13:12.200 Everybody knows it.

01:13:13.600 And you move progressively on that level.

01:13:16.120 And ultimately, any deal that's done or is struck

01:13:19.500 is inevitably not going to be as good as what was initially maybe demanded.

01:13:24.080 The $5 million, $6 million mark right at the beginning, Megan,

01:13:27.960 that's an interesting one because many international insurances

01:13:31.200 really will cover on K&R up to about $5 million.

01:13:35.440 dollars. So this is potentially someone who does know how the system works to a certain degree.

01:13:42.080 Hmm. Okay, James, what do you think? Because one of the issues I have in analyzing the guy who

01:13:48.760 wrote the six notes, even though the second one was his last communication, is he could get 1.2

01:13:56.300 million from the FBI if he can provide information leading to either Nancy's body, Nancy, or the

01:14:04.880 kidnappers and instead he's trying to cash in for the low low price of whatever it is 72 000 bucks

01:14:11.180 or whatever you can get a bitcoin for today yeah yeah i mean you're i'm with you on that that's

01:14:16.440 the first thing i thought about was why one bitcoin when you can get 1.2 million but let's go back to

01:14:21.820 the words i think the words are very important and you nailed it you know his his uh my final

01:14:26.960 offer was it letter two and then here come four more and so you know his bluff if you will was

01:14:32.620 called and he's like no and he's hanging on he's trying anything he can because he just wants to

01:14:37.060 get some money because eventually somebody might pay he's probably done this before and you know

01:14:41.680 they try a lot of different tricks and one of them is persistence but i think it's important

01:14:46.500 he's also saying some things well two things you mentioned it on language the way in which

01:14:52.040 the apostries were used i think when i read the stuff i thought it was english was not the first

01:14:56.660 language of the individual um the writing it you know this english is not their first language just

01:15:01.940 by the way some of those sentences were organized but the second thing is that he knows the case

01:15:07.680 and so that's you know to me very curious it's almost like you know a fan of the case and wants

01:15:14.100 to be recognized in some way shape or form and that you know is why they're going through TMZ

01:15:19.160 because TMZ is so hot on this thing but Will continues to go back to it and it's it's incredibly

01:15:25.840 difficult for me to understand that we're here almost 67 days later. We have still, no one has

01:15:33.620 given us a proof of life. This whole thing is unorthodox. You don't go through TMZ as an

01:15:38.640 intermediary. You go to the family or you go to law enforcement or both, and you try to get your

01:15:44.400 money. So the whole thing has always been very, very unorthodox. And then the last thing I wanted

01:15:51.400 to say, and Will mentioned it, was just with regards, oh God, go ahead, Will, because I

01:15:59.360 watched it. Yeah. You know what? I think James picked up on a really valid point there, Megan.

01:16:08.540 The individuals that either are the legitimate kidnappers or are the fanboys or fangirls of

01:16:16.220 for kidnapping and are seeking to exploit it in some shape or form by putting in bogus ransom

01:16:21.800 demands. Their viewing, their scouring of the media, even potentially watching us and watching

01:16:29.560 your dear self, obviously covering this and seeing the various different analysts and pundits that a

01:16:35.520 former agency or former bureau or former MyWorld, who will actually sort of give their thoughts and

01:16:42.020 ideas of what's going on. They'll be watching all of that avidly. And that will have a lot of

01:16:47.200 bearing on how their OPSEC is. And inevitably, the Bureau, who's been sort of front and center

01:16:52.860 on this, will be very guarded about their information, which is why I'm very cautious

01:16:57.540 about what Mr. Levin has been saying, because I think it's him speculating on minimal information

01:17:03.600 that he's been given. Why would he, I don't know, maybe this is a dumb question, James, but like,

01:17:12.020 He knows this is a crime. I mean, he knows this is a crime. He knows that he's the law enforcement's all over this case. The FBI is involved. Does it seem at all reckless to send not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, six, six felonious notes to Harvey Levin at TMZ? 0.94

01:17:33.460 Like, is that I know these scammers love to scam, but it's one thing when you're calling grandma and it's another when you you've got the eyes of the FBI and multiple cops looking at every single thing you're doing.

01:17:43.860 Yeah, I mean, a couple of things there. One, they're not they're not concerned at all about consequences or two, they just don't think that that'll actually happen because they live in a country where they don't think, you know, the FBI is going to come get them or the crime is not of such, you know, severity that the bureau would go down and snatch them up.

01:18:01.640 And so they just don't feel like there's any real consequence for doing all of this.

01:18:05.580 And I just remember my point that Will was making.

01:18:10.080 And that's this unorthodox nature of, you know, we're having to get information on this case from Levin, right?

01:18:16.340 Like we you're asking all the right questions.

01:18:19.300 And Ashley is also. But where is the FBI?

01:18:22.660 Where is the sheriff? Why are they not answering these very good questions you have?

01:18:27.500 Like, why didn't you pay the ransom? You just asked that question earlier.

01:18:30.320 you know like why didn't you pay the ransom well that's a great question fbi cash patel what

01:18:35.960 happened what's the deal you know i'm sure they say something that sounds a lot like what wilson

01:18:40.160 saying well we had no proof of life and then lastly with number two you know there is not a

01:18:45.480 person walking this planet that doesn't have a cell phone number two could have taken a picture

01:18:49.960 of nancy when he quote unquote saw her in sonora which that's a whole thing but he didn't and that

01:18:56.180 would have bolstered his case exponentially and made me not think he's a scammer if he had sent

01:19:00.680 a picture in to harvey saying hey here she is okay now we're getting somewhere but no such

01:19:06.120 evidence came no such proof came um and you know i don't really like the reporting of someone saying

01:19:13.140 you know that this guy gave specific information as to where she was sonora is huge right just

01:19:19.580 saying i saw her in sonora is that's ridiculous okay can you be more specific please it is a very

01:19:25.060 large location okay it would be like saying i saw her in new york city or jimmy hoffa is in new

01:19:30.560 jersey like everyone always told us okay like yeah i've heard that before you heard it ladies

01:19:35.720 and gentlemen that's from an actual former fbi agent here new jersey is a huge place i mean we

01:19:40.660 heard that all the time wait before i go back to will i gotta ask you a follow-up james as the

01:19:46.860 former FBI guy. Note number six to Harvey and Harvey got at least one of the two notes that

01:19:56.560 may have come from the real kidnapper. Wouldn't the FBI by this point have put some sort of

01:20:05.060 tracing ability on Harvey's email since it's like the central receptacle for all kidnapping notes?

01:20:12.660 Like, I can see why they couldn't find the first two, you know, but like at this point, when you think the FBI would have said, Harvey, yo, we're going to have to rig it such that everything that comes in is now traceable by us.

01:20:26.100 And this guy should be in federal custody soon.

01:20:29.060 We'll be careful with that word traceable.

01:20:31.200 I mean, you're you're really good with words.

01:20:33.740 And so we got to be real careful with our words.

01:20:36.240 And even though, yeah, what you're saying, I don't want to talk way too much about it, but that's probably something that on the back end is happening.

01:20:45.600 But remember, there is a myriad of ways to obfuscate, hide, and really use an email account that's very hard to find.

01:20:55.340 And it's all over the Internet.

01:20:57.400 You can find out how to do it.

01:20:58.460 So it is possible that they're just coming up, you know, blank with where the IP address is.

01:21:05.840 Just that could be happening.

01:21:07.780 I'm not saying it is, but it's possible.

01:21:10.820 So even if they have some sort of FBI technology connected now to TMZ's form website, again, we've talked about this.

01:21:19.220 It's not an email.

01:21:20.060 It's like go on TMZ.com and type in a tip.

01:21:23.800 Right.

01:21:24.060 You know, so-and-so just got arrested for drunk driving and you just submit.

01:21:28.800 And so the information that you have to provide is minimal and the information of your computer is apparently, or at least you can make it, untraceable because they would have traced it by now on both the first ransom note writer and this second guy.

01:21:42.860 Or very, very difficult.

01:21:43.840 I mean, there's not to get too much into tradecraft, but, you know, there's all kinds of cafes where Internet cafes are popping up and you can go in fictitiously, get on a site, put in some information and leave.

01:21:57.520 And then, you know, the bureau or whoever is investigating it, they got to go and get camera footage.

01:22:01.460 If there is such camera footage, if the person hasn't, you know, obfuscated their their face, if they pay cash.

01:22:06.600 I mean, it's really hard. It's hard to capture them.

01:22:10.800 Go ahead, Will.

01:22:12.160 Yeah, I mean, James is absolutely right.

01:22:14.040 And I don't think we want to do a DIY on how to kidnap someone on your show.

01:22:19.020 But, you know, if they've used an email account,

01:22:22.780 you know, there are ways to reply to that email account

01:22:25.360 to actually put a bit of script behind it.

01:22:27.940 You then grab an IP address and get past their VPN.

01:22:32.360 But, I mean, there are various different ways, like James said.

01:22:34.580 You can either use remote locations.

01:22:36.680 There are various different types of internet email service online

01:22:40.420 that will literally self-destruct after five minutes.

01:22:44.180 Again, there are so many variables

01:22:45.420 without knowing the details.

01:22:46.760 It's difficult to say whether the FBI

01:22:49.400 would have something to potentially follow up on.

01:22:51.680 But one of the things that I would be doing right now, Megan,

01:22:54.940 and I've done this before when we lost contact

01:22:57.800 with kidnappers on a particular case in Latin America,

01:23:01.180 was that we actually did a distributed

01:23:04.040 missing persons notification in the area

01:23:06.800 that we believed the hostage was being held.

01:23:09.020 Now, Sonora is big, but it's not that big.

01:23:12.480 And I would be rather spending $35,000 putting out flyers, doing optimisation through local Facebook, various chat groups,

01:23:21.540 to anybody who could potentially provide either a witness account of them seeing where Nancy is

01:23:27.200 or reporting any other detail that they can with a bounty attached to it.

01:23:31.780 And you're hitting a low-income sort of community.

01:23:36.280 And so you could put a bounty at a fairly rational level

01:23:39.460 that would incentivize people to potentially call in

01:23:42.560 and notify any information that, again, could be followed on.

01:23:46.240 It's been very successful when I've used it.

01:23:48.920 It's been successful, I know, for other teams who've used it.

01:23:52.480 Well, can we talk about the 36,000?

01:23:54.660 So, you know, ransom note writer, number two,

01:23:57.380 he wants one Bitcoin, half now and half after he delivers.

01:24:01.860 And that's 36 grand times two.

01:24:04.340 it's not that much money guys i'm tempted to pay it right like i just feel like i'm not going to

01:24:10.940 don't don't kidnap my relatives um but like savannick that she could easily afford that

01:24:15.940 so does that tell us that the fbi 100 thinks that this guy is fake news because

01:24:22.320 she could easily afford that i think she probably makes that in a day and so like

01:24:27.760 just to shut this guy up or just to like see or just to maybe trace right because when they take 1.00

01:24:34.020 the money out of the account. There's some traceability at that point. Like, why not just

01:24:40.220 do it? Because it's a punt. I'm sorry. No, no, no, James. I mean, I was just going to say it's

01:24:46.920 a gamble. And unfortunately, you open up a Pandora's box of other individuals coming out

01:24:52.320 of the woodwork. Sorry, James, over to you. No, I'm with you a million percent. You drop in the

01:24:58.460 36 or the full Bitcoin 72 grand. And what's going to happen the next day? Oh, by the way, I'm going

01:25:04.640 to need a little bit more because I have a new problem that's just come up. And I really want

01:25:11.000 to get you the information, but I'm just going to need one more. And they got you on the line.

01:25:16.080 So they figured they're going to keep milking you. I mean, this is how scams work. And they

01:25:19.720 prey upon immediacy and feelings and all of these things. And that's why they're good at it. And

01:25:27.080 that's you know and that's what happens but you know i i think if isn't it worth it just to nab

01:25:32.500 him though like if you have a chance of nabbing him once he did what do you mean that draws the

01:25:36.460 36 000 what do you mean right like you mean arrest him yeah in mexico like once he withdraws the

01:25:43.340 money well is he if he's in mexico i think he's probably in a foreign country if he's in mexico

01:25:48.380 that's very very difficult to do i mean you know the bureau can ask the mexicans but they're not

01:25:53.000 going to have FBI agents on the streets of Mexico just snatching a guy up, you know, taking his

01:25:57.040 Bitcoin out. It doesn't work like that. All right. Stand by. Stand by. I'm going to get you to finish

01:26:00.780 that thought. And we're going to talk about the so-called real ransom notes in one minute. Don't

01:26:04.380 go away. We're going to carry over. Let's talk about what's really happening right now. New

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01:27:15.480 channel and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies along

01:27:20.960 with the megan kelly show you're going to hear from people like mark halperin link lauren maureen

01:27:25.260 callahan emily joshinsky jesse kelly real clear politics and many more it's bold no bs news only

01:27:32.520 on the megan kelly channel sirius xm 111 and on the sirius xm app

01:27:36.740 they have done everything they can um from what i understand uh to figure out who sent these notes

01:27:50.000 um they were on with my it team for hours and hours and hours working with my it team

01:27:58.780 and they came up dry and they could not find it and they still haven't found out who wrote it

01:28:03.780 This is a cold case, and they're just waiting for one of those breaks that often comes.

01:28:11.340 But they are at a dead end right now.

01:28:15.200 That was more of Harvey Levin speaking to Ashley Banfield.

01:28:19.920 Cold case, dead end, not what you want to hear when your 84-year-old mom remains missing.

01:28:27.060 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:28:28.460 Will Geddes and James Hamilton are back with me.

01:28:30.620 Those words are just so ominous, James.

01:28:33.200 cold case, dead end. They've got nothing, nothing. They've got like these two little notes

01:28:41.180 that came to Harvey on Monday seem to be the most promising thing, but we all, well, you and I think

01:28:49.480 they're a scam. Will also thinks they're a scam, but thinks there's a possibility they could be

01:28:53.880 related to the actual kidnapper that we can't rule that out. But they've got nothing, which is why

01:28:58.160 I'm back on, pay the 36,000 bucks. Watch them withdraw that money from the Bitcoin account

01:29:04.380 and see if you can find something that leads you to this guy just to at least see whether he's

01:29:09.440 legit. And let's play that string out just a little bit more. If the individual is in another

01:29:14.920 country, which I think they are, and we don't get them, by the way, what are they going to do?

01:29:19.940 They're going to tell five or six of their buddies, hey, this is what happened and I got it. And guess

01:29:24.420 what Harvey's going to get tomorrow. He's going to get six more letters, right? And they're all

01:29:29.840 going to have a little bit of salt, a little bit of touch of realness, enough to get him to report

01:29:35.500 on. And it's worth a shot. Why? Well, I just got 72 grand for doing nothing. I might as well try

01:29:41.400 it. And that's a lot of money in certain parts of the world. So that's why I wouldn't do it.

01:29:45.480 And there's just no guarantee that on the back end, I'd have the support to actually make the

01:29:50.560 arrest, right? What do you make of the fact that, well, in the, let's switch now and start talking

01:29:56.600 about the ransom note writer number one, who now we know from Savannah herself and now from Harvey

01:30:03.660 revealing what he was told by the FBI, that they both thought this was the actual kidnapper,

01:30:10.100 which is, I mean, that's quite a headline. You know, we kind of gleaned it from Savannah's

01:30:13.320 soundbite, but now you have Harvey saying the FBI thinks it's the guy. It was the guy.

01:30:18.120 Explain to me why they wouldn't have said,

01:30:21.800 Savannah, we think this guy actually has your mom.

01:30:25.560 It is, we don't, I can't remember whether they knew

01:30:28.640 they've received the note on the,

01:30:30.120 Nancy went missing overnight Saturday to Sunday.

01:30:32.200 They either got this on, I think they got it on Tuesday.

01:30:35.240 They definitely had it by Wednesday.

01:30:36.820 And the first deadline was Thursday. 1.00

01:30:38.780 Pay 4 million by Thursday and you can have her 1.00

01:30:40.620 or pay 6 million by Monday. 0.97

01:30:43.180 Why on Tuesday or Wednesday,

01:30:44.960 wouldn't they have said, this is legit?

01:30:47.880 We think it's legit.

01:30:49.000 Look at these descriptions of what they saw

01:30:50.800 inside of your mom's house.

01:30:52.860 Let's pay it.

01:30:53.700 I'm sure Savannah said, let's pay it, right?

01:30:56.580 Four million bucks.

01:30:57.980 It's a lot, but it's your mom.

01:31:01.640 Would the advice always have been

01:31:03.880 not unless they can provide proof of life?

01:31:07.760 Absolutely, Megan.

01:31:09.300 It's one of those things.

01:31:10.980 And we're gonna circle back to this again and again.

01:31:13.300 it really does come down to proof of life or proof of death.

01:31:17.160 It's one of two things.

01:31:19.440 Whoever and how legitimate they may sound

01:31:22.120 really cannot be substantiated until you have it.

01:31:25.580 The one thing that I am disappointed in

01:31:27.760 is that there hasn't been a change in tack,

01:31:30.720 either using Levin or the FBI making a direct statement

01:31:34.760 or even Savannah making a statement

01:31:36.320 of re-strategising how to retrieve her if she is dead.

01:31:40.440 because at the moment, as Harvey Levin says,

01:31:44.560 you know, it's pretty much stalled in the water.

01:31:46.940 Nothing is further going to happen.

01:31:48.600 And until such time, and that's the hard part.

01:31:51.540 When you're doing a negotiation,

01:31:53.520 the hard part is the time period

01:31:55.520 between when you anticipate

01:31:56.800 the next contact's going to be made.

01:31:59.220 But during that time,

01:32:00.360 you do what we call contact preparation.

01:32:02.200 So you prepare yourself for all types of responses

01:32:05.540 or solicitations that might possibly be coming through

01:32:08.320 from, who supposedly is the kidnapper. But again, comes back to, look, guys, we'll give you the

01:32:15.440 money. We don't have a problem with that. We will pay you your amount if it's reasonable and

01:32:20.320 practical to be able to do so. Because again, depending on how it's delivered would be very,

01:32:25.100 very hard. You know, certainly I can say without incriminating myself in certain parts of the

01:32:30.300 world, if you're trying to pay 3 million plus, getting that kind of money locally or getting

01:32:35.500 it into that location is very difficult and if that was going to be in mexico that would be a

01:32:40.300 challenge regardless of however easy people might believe it might be so really it comes back to

01:32:45.940 proof of life megan until they could prove that or proof of death and it only has to be a photograph

01:32:51.680 of nancy to be able to do so or video of nancy ideally uh that could be obviously verified that

01:32:58.600 it's not ai'd or deep faked or anything else then unfortunately it's always going to be a stalemate

01:33:03.440 I mean, there was communication, James. We know that the family, they came on camera,

01:33:09.060 the three of them. That was the first we saw them. After Nancy had been taken, they were holding

01:33:14.240 hands. Savannah spoke mostly. And they said, we need to know that you have her. That's the video

01:33:22.580 when she said, talk to her and you'll see, she's a nice person. But she said, we need to know that

01:33:27.760 you have her. So she was asking for proof of life. And there was a second communication

01:33:33.280 that we don't know anything about. I mean, we had one report from nerdy addict who's been all over

01:33:41.500 this case, but it's unconfirmed that maybe that second note had some more details in it,

01:33:47.400 possibly about Nancy no longer being alive. But that's totally unconfirmed. All we've had

01:33:52.920 confirmed about the second note is from Kagan, the local Tucson station that did receive it,

01:33:57.920 saying the person's trying to convince you, us, that I'm reading from it here. The new note

01:34:04.060 contains something the senders seem to think will prove to investigators that they're the same

01:34:08.740 people who sent the first note. So that's weird. I mean, that doesn't tell us much. It could just

01:34:13.720 be that Kagan is more discreet than Harvey and held back other details. But the kidnapper,

01:34:20.300 if that's the kidnapper, did respond to the family because their desperate video came out

01:34:26.700 that Wednesday. And we did just check our days. That ransom note, the first one was received on

01:34:33.840 Tuesday. So Nancy's gone. She's discovered missing Sunday morning. Tuesday at 1.12 PM

01:34:39.580 is when that first demand came in for the 4 million slash 6 million. The family responded

01:34:45.500 on wednesday evening we need to know you have her and thursday we get the second note to only kagon

01:34:52.020 no longer harvey at 5 30 p.m and then that's it nothing nothing more yeah i'm with will you know

01:35:01.600 again i the fbi wants to get her back they don't care about four million dollars or six million

01:35:07.700 if that's what it takes that's what it's going to take but they want to get her back and you know

01:35:13.280 for me as i'm again i'm not there in it i'm hearing these you know what's being reported

01:35:18.820 the only thing that makes any sense to me is that the bureau had the evidence that suggested hey

01:35:25.240 this isn't real we should not pay it because as will say it there there's no proof that he has

01:35:30.520 her and we can't just throw money away and your hopes and all of the trust confidence you're

01:35:35.720 trying to build with a family it's going to go right out the window if you pay four million

01:35:39.280 dollars and nothing happens. You don't get them. You don't get her back, you know, anything like

01:35:43.520 that. And so, again, you know, when Harvey's saying that, you know, the FBI was serious about

01:35:48.440 it. Well, yeah, of course they were serious. This was a couple of days into it. And they're

01:35:52.200 running every lead to the ground that they get, you know, as they should. And that makes sense to

01:35:57.920 me. But there had to have been something that those people, the team said, hey, look, there's

01:36:03.160 just not enough here for us to feel comfortable saying to you, Savannah or family, hey, this is a

01:36:08.440 good idea but even now even now savannah thinks those notes were real here she is just as a

01:36:16.380 reminder in her today show interview dated march 26 thought 23 there are a lot of different notes

01:36:22.800 i think that came and i think most of them it's my understanding are not real and i didn't see them

01:36:32.120 But, you know, a person that would send a fake ransom note really has to look deeply at themselves to a family in pain.

01:36:48.200 But I believe the two notes that we received, that we responded to, I tend to believe those are real.

01:37:00.600 so she still believes it will which is like a special torture yeah because now

01:37:07.260 they didn't pay and if she believes they're real she believes those people have her mother or at

01:37:15.800 least had her mother and they didn't pay i mean that's just a special kind of hell yeah i've seen

01:37:23.600 this before megan and unfortunately more often than not the reason this will happen where the

01:37:29.260 family members or family member will start having a heightened level of positivity about the

01:37:35.420 possible outcome or a good outcome. And sorry, James, don't wish to be disrespectful to your

01:37:41.080 old brethren, but it may be one of the case managers who initially, in their eagerness to

01:37:47.220 try and get this matter underway and this case handled, injected a little bit too much hope

01:37:53.960 inside her. The one thing when I've trained negotiators myself, the one thing that I always

01:37:59.380 say to them is number one, and I've told you this one before, Megan, never lie. That's number one

01:38:04.460 rule, because if you do, you're going to come unstuck. Secondly, is remain as neutral as

01:38:10.380 possible. Even when you've got the proof of life, even when you've agreed the ransom amount,

01:38:15.360 until you get the hostage back in one piece, there's really, you've got to remain as neutral

01:38:20.820 as possible. And my concern is those first two letters, it may have been misinterpreted by a

01:38:27.380 young case officer or someone attached to the investigation who gave her idea. It may not have

01:38:32.900 been the Bureau. It could have been Mr. Levine. It could have been other commentators in the media,

01:38:38.080 obviously not your good self, who's being pragmatic about this, but the others may have

01:38:42.420 given those glimmers of hope. Well, that leads me to the next thing I wanted to cover with you

01:38:50.760 guys, which is Brian Enten continues to report in this case, and he has been digging on the

01:38:59.600 local PD and Sheriff Nanos and has a couple of new reveals, which are not great. They're not

01:39:06.760 great. I'll give you the first one here in SOT 26, where he's citing a source close to the

01:39:11.800 investigation. Were the initial people who responded inexperienced?

01:39:16.340 The people that were there on the scene were not 10-year homicide detectives. They didn't have a lot of experience in homicide at that point, to include the supervisor, who, from my understanding, never investigated a homicide before being installed as the supervisor for the homicide unit.

01:39:37.080 So wait, so the supervisor who first responded to Nancy Guthrie's house had never investigated a homicide?

01:39:45.020 Correct.

01:39:45.720 How is that possible?

01:39:47.020 Well, so you have decisions made by people that will install friends and people that can do stuff for them,

01:39:54.920 opposed to people that are there on their merit and can do the job correctly.

01:39:59.200 As he said for the listening audience, it results from people who want to install people in roles who can do something for them,

01:40:05.360 as opposed to on merit.

01:40:06.740 And just one more before I give it to you, James, a follow-up from that same interview, SOT27.

01:40:11.680 What would you say are the biggest mistakes when it comes to the Nancy Guthrie investigation, from what you know?

01:40:41.680 What do you make of that, James?

01:40:45.460 Yeah, that's what we were talking about last week, where Savannah kept saying, you know, you don't understand. She can't walk to the mailbox. And I and I think I said, you know, this sounds like the responding deputies were trying to talk her into a narrative of, you know, she just walked away. There's probably nothing to it versus looking at it holistically. And, you know, this could be something more than that.

01:41:07.880 And so now this undercover individual is basically confirming that.

01:41:12.380 And that's exactly what I thought was going on, was they didn't understand what they had.

01:41:17.160 And obviously some mistakes were made, and we're all seeing those now.

01:41:21.620 And it's callous to say, but I'm not surprised by what he's saying, that the homicide detective or the sergeant of the homicide unit has never worked a homicide.

01:41:31.040 That doesn't surprise me at all.

01:41:32.880 There has to be accountability.

01:41:34.380 And, you know, people have to get involved and ask questions. And if you're electing a sheriff, you know, you got to who are you electing, first of all? And then second of all, who are these people that you're hiring? There has to be accountability. And, you know, thank God we got people like you asking hard questions because, you know, these things shouldn't be going on, but they are.

01:41:52.440 and how i mean the the thought of what evidence could have been lost that first day will if you

01:42:00.800 have you know a newbie or someone who's relatively inexperienced supervising the whole thing i mean

01:42:09.240 it's exactly the kind of thing that could lead to what harvey said at the top of the hour at you

01:42:13.880 know 14 minutes ago no leads cold case completely keystone as we've said continually about how the

01:42:21.720 sheriff has run this operation it's like sending an electrician to do a plumbing job they had

01:42:27.200 entirely the wrong people on it they approached it by having a prismed and focused sort of agenda

01:42:33.580 that it was literally a search and rescue rather than it was potentially anything remember when

01:42:39.400 they opened up the crime scene within two days and it took them three days to get the bureau involved

01:42:45.500 I mean, the whole thing is just catastrophic in terms of mismanagement.

01:42:50.760 And ultimately, there are some serious questions.

01:42:53.100 They had turned the house back over to the family.

01:42:55.100 That's right. Yeah, it was Monday evening.

01:42:56.740 But there's some serious questions and accountability that the sheriff has got to answer to

01:43:00.800 as to why he deployed the wrong people.

01:43:03.800 I mean, I would be doing such a massive investigation on them and the evident incompetence.

01:43:10.600 I'm sure people who were tasked by the sheriff probably were confused as much as anybody else as to why they were being tasked.

01:43:17.920 Here, the sheriff did speak out to News 4 in Tucson, and here's a little of what he said.

01:43:23.700 This sergeant's been the supervisor of homicide for over two years.

01:43:28.300 And in that time, he saw some pretty significant, very high-profile cases for this area, the Reddington homicide, the Goodwill homicide.

01:43:37.040 And they solved those within days.

01:43:39.880 But you cannot attack my department.

01:43:43.480 Attack the sheriff, but you will not get by with attacking my department.

01:43:47.500 With reports coming out that his investigators made mistakes in the early stages of Guthrie's disappearance,

01:43:53.160 this is what Nanos had to say.

01:43:55.540 Discrediting an investigation like this doesn't help anything.

01:44:00.200 It's very harmful.

01:44:01.760 No, we don't believe there were any mistakes made.

01:44:03.860 As for the recent reports that he should step down from being our sheriff.

01:44:08.320 For 50 years, every sheriff here has had that.

01:44:11.360 I can't listen to that.

01:44:12.800 That's white noise.

01:44:13.920 I'm not going to stand for it.

01:44:15.240 These people work hard every day to keep our community safe.

01:44:19.820 What's with the feelings talk, James?

01:44:22.880 That's harmful, you know, to talk about the investigation not being well done.

01:44:27.600 That's harmful.

01:44:28.500 It's just like his talk around the speculation about whether a family member may have been

01:44:32.960 involved in the disappearance, you know, like that's hurtful. What do you, what do you, is this

01:44:38.460 Oprah or is it a homicide investigation? Well, it sounds a lot like Oprah, um, to answer your

01:44:43.480 question. It doesn't sound a lot like a homicide investigation and, you know, feelings are an

01:44:48.620 interesting thing, but you know, when we're trying to find a lady, 84 years old, you know, feelings

01:44:55.000 kind of have to take a back seat. We have to get results. And sometimes that does hurt feelings 0.98

01:44:59.160 and, you know, I'm sorry, I'm not in the feelings business. You know, we need to be in the results

01:45:02.480 business. We need to find this woman. And, you know, to say that no mistakes were made, I mean, 0.98

01:45:07.520 that's a pretty incredulous statement based on the knowledge we have now.

01:45:13.860 Yeah, right. Would you ever say such a thing? Can you imagine that, Will? Like, no,

01:45:17.820 zero mistakes. Oh, come on. Yeah. I mean, firstly, you lose all credibility and integrity by making

01:45:23.800 a blanket statement like that. We all make mistakes. I mean, it's inevitable. And, you know,

01:45:28.960 There's a golden rule in our world, and as I'm sure it is with James and his teams, that you make a mistake, you fess up to it straight away, and then you can crack on.

01:45:37.000 You resolve it, you remediate, and you move on to the next step.

01:45:40.460 But it shows no integrity.

01:45:41.400 Well, he did admit to releasing the crime scene too soon earlier in this case.

01:45:48.180 He did admit to that.

01:45:49.160 Remember, he was like, okay, that's on me.

01:45:50.580 I'll take responsibility.

01:45:51.500 And now it's zero mistakes were made.

01:45:53.800 He doesn't even remember what he's previously said about it.

01:45:57.100 I'm going to go back to Brian Enten and that guy in shadow who's clearly from the Pima County Sheriff's Department, though.

01:46:03.460 He's just described as a source close to the investigation.

01:46:06.080 Listen to him.

01:46:06.640 This is on Sheriff Nono's SOT 28.

01:46:09.940 What would you want to say to the sheriff if you could?

01:46:12.780 I would say that he ruined a great department.

01:46:17.860 He ruined a great department.

01:46:19.620 If he steps aside.

01:46:20.840 And I would ask him to step aside.

01:46:22.040 How would you describe morale at the sheriff's office right now?

01:46:27.100 I would say right now it's extremely low.

01:46:30.400 This is the lowest I've seen it.

01:46:32.320 There's a lot of embarrassment, especially with the news kind of conversations that we've had with Nanos, his interaction with the media.

01:46:43.660 A lot of embarrassment over Nanos' interaction with the media.

01:46:47.960 Who could blame them well?

01:46:49.560 No, who could blame them? 0.98

01:46:50.700 I mean, to be honest, I wouldn't want to be working with this clown. 0.94

01:46:53.480 I would want to put as much distance as I possibly can. 0.97

01:46:56.020 And I think the concern is this man's got way too much ego.

01:46:59.540 He's bathing in the spotlight of the attention that he's getting.

01:47:02.740 I mean, I think it was inevitable by the fact that, you know, he was unwilling to address that question about whether he should resign and deferred it through to his team and said, well, everyone's doing a brilliant job.

01:47:13.820 Well, yeah, they probably are, but you're not leading particularly well.

01:47:17.960 Megan, I had it.

01:47:18.780 What do you think of what he said there, James?

01:47:20.720 The supervisor had been on the job for two years.

01:47:23.240 Well, that probably usually means 18 months. There's always this little bit of math that they do, which you've got to elongate the years of service to make it sound more impressive.

01:47:34.840 But okay.

01:47:35.920 I did not know that.

01:47:36.460 Right. So okay, two years. Great. And you say he saw a homicide down the street or whatever. Did he do that or did the detectives that worked underneath him do that? That's usually what I found.

01:47:48.560 And usually, like the department I came from, you were a detective, and then you saw some stuff, and then you became a sergeant, and then you became a lieutenant.

01:47:56.020 So there was actually – you knew what the hell you were doing.

01:47:59.040 But I was curious if you had heard – I was reading this morning that News Nation and this Brian Enten, that they were the ones that found the blood on the porch.

01:48:07.960 Is that your understanding, or did I read that wrong?

01:48:10.820 Well, I mean the family seems to have known about it.

01:48:14.680 Do you mean like did he find it before the family?

01:48:16.480 Correct.

01:48:16.760 Like, no, that he saw the blood on the porch, yes, that picture, and that they had to call back to the sheriff's office to say, hey, there's blood on this porch, and then they processed it.

01:48:27.220 That's what I read this morning.

01:48:29.880 Is that not right?

01:48:31.940 Oh, good gracious.

01:48:33.100 I've never heard that.

01:48:34.120 Okay.

01:48:34.820 I've never heard that before.

01:48:36.200 I mean, I heard that they got there, and they did find blood inside the house and that the pattern continued outside the house.

01:48:44.660 Okay.

01:48:44.900 And I don't know when Brian was able to get that tape.

01:48:47.220 I know he, I think he aired it at Monday night.

01:48:49.640 It was that Monday night they released the crime scene.

01:48:51.560 He was like, okay, great.

01:48:52.400 I'll go over there and see it.

01:48:53.680 So who knows?

01:48:54.480 But it's possible, James.

01:48:55.660 Anything's possible with this crew.

01:48:56.900 That would have been a good follow-up question to the sheriff, you know, about the mistakes

01:49:00.260 being made.

01:49:01.200 Is it true that the news found the blood in the driveway or on the set?

01:49:05.120 Well, you know, we do know.

01:49:06.700 You know, we know for a fact, James, they didn't find that other camera on the roof

01:49:11.800 of Nancy's home until a week later.

01:49:14.360 It's like, yeah, that's right. You didn't think to look everywhere for cameras. That seems like a really relevant thing to find out. How many cameras does she have? Who installed them? Call, call the contractor, find out where they're all hidden. You know, I mean, that's just one basic thing that they didn't do.

01:49:32.760 So it's just so frustrating because everybody wants answers.

01:49:36.140 In the meantime, Savannah is back on the set.

01:49:40.500 I want to show a little bit of her return, which was just this past Monday.

01:49:45.460 Here's how that looked in SOT 30.

01:49:49.240 Pretty shot of the sun coming up.

01:49:50.960 Good morning.

01:49:51.580 Welcome to today on this Monday morning.

01:49:53.800 We are so glad you started your week with us.

01:49:56.760 And it is good to be home.

01:49:58.160 Yes, it is good to have you back at home.

01:50:00.000 Well, here we go.

01:50:00.720 Ready or not.

01:50:01.400 Let's do the news.

01:50:02.400 Yes. So good to have you back. All right. There's a lot.

01:50:05.840 So there was a report that they told the staffers on the Today Show, don't mention it. Let's just

01:50:11.020 go forward. And I think that's very good, right? Because you know how it is when you've had

01:50:14.720 something bad happen to you and anybody expresses empathy for you. It immediately brings up, you

01:50:19.660 know, the feelings and you guys probably don't cry when that happens to you, but I do. I tear

01:50:24.560 up whenever everybody's feeling sorry for me. It's like the worst possible thing. So that was well

01:50:29.840 done, I thought. And she's got now to go on with her life, guys. You've probably seen this happen

01:50:35.840 before to crime victims who have to return to normal life, including a job. Everybody works.

01:50:43.280 And in her case, it's with a twist because it's not just she's a crime victim. Her mom is still

01:50:51.340 missing and for all she knows is still out there somewhere. I mean, I think most of us assume she's

01:50:58.060 no longer living, but we actually don't know. So you have to go back and resume your life on a

01:51:04.540 sunny morning show and act cheerful and bright and like, you know, do this silly cooking segments

01:51:12.960 and all the nonsense that comes with morning TV. I don't know. Any thoughts on that? James,

01:51:17.900 I'll start with you. Like having been in law enforcement for so long. Yeah. I would say,

01:51:21.480 you know, there is no normal. I think you said like she'll return to her normal life.

01:51:25.540 no more there's no more normal life for her right um she will live with this every single day and

01:51:32.060 that's why this is worse i mean it's it's obviously terrible if if the mother is dead but at least you

01:51:38.200 know it you can grieve you can bury her and you can try to move on and you know go on with your

01:51:43.580 life to some degree but when that individual is just is missing and there's no closure it is every

01:51:51.000 single day. She's going to think about it. She's going to wake up thinking about it. She's going

01:51:55.980 to get emails, notes, letters. NBC is going to get flooded by people who have real evil in their 0.84

01:52:03.540 hearts saying, oh, I know where she is, or how dare you go back to work and all this terrible

01:52:07.760 stuff. This lady is going to deal with all that. And I feel awful about it. And this reminded me 1.00

01:52:15.100 of the very first time I was with you, this is what I was afraid of. I was afraid there would

01:52:19.540 be no leads, there would be no closure and there'd be no arrest. And here we are. That's, that's the

01:52:25.180 thing that really, really is tragic about this case. The other piece of it is, and I mean, you

01:52:31.340 know this very well, Will, given what you do, both of you guys, if I were in her position, I'd be so

01:52:38.400 scared about the rest of my family. I'd be more scared than ever about my kids, my husband,

01:52:46.080 myself you know even her brother and sister like i because you don't know who did this and why

01:52:53.880 whether they've got something against your family that's still a possibility will it's like yeah

01:52:58.680 she's got to go on and function in this world with family members now wondering if someone's

01:53:03.940 out to get them yeah i mean i would say the first thing hopefully that was afforded to savannah was

01:53:09.660 obviously some close protection for herself and her family uh although we didn't see it for the

01:53:14.420 sister and for the brother-in-law which I found kind of curious now the number of times in 30

01:53:20.420 odd years of doing this I've have I seen other members of the family getting kidnapped unless

01:53:25.160 they're all in a very high risk hostile environment it's very rare that that actually happens so the

01:53:31.100 installation of close protection around the family is really to provide them with some sort of

01:53:37.440 reassurance so that they can sleep at night so they're not hearing strange noises in the house

01:53:41.540 and waking up and thinking, oh my God, I'm going to be next.

01:53:44.920 But it's very important that it only goes in

01:53:47.160 for a limited amount of time

01:53:48.860 because it can become a bit of a safety blanket.

01:53:51.800 And then when you withdraw that blanket, it's very difficult.

01:53:54.300 So I would hope, and I've had this with other cases

01:53:57.080 and I agree with James and yourself 100%,

01:54:00.140 she hasn't got that closure.

01:54:02.380 And this is what Savannah needs.

01:54:04.500 She needs closure to know what happened to her mum

01:54:07.100 and where is her mum.

01:54:08.300 so i hope that she's getting a great deal of of assessments and therapy right now and being able

01:54:15.180 to talk to someone who's experienced in managing these kinds of situations and managing the

01:54:19.940 victims of these kinds of situations because that's the only way that really she'll be able

01:54:24.440 to get through however brave her face she's putting on things it's so impossible because

01:54:30.140 not only has she had to go on with her life but her life is across the country you can't even

01:54:34.900 go search, you know, when you're done with your shift, you can't, I mean, I know I've, I've

01:54:41.180 maintained contact with the parents of baby Lisa Irwin, who was stolen from her crib in the middle

01:54:46.900 of the night, um, and out of, uh, Missouri and Kansas city. And they, they, they too, like they

01:54:54.680 had their baby taken from her crib. Like, how do you go on? I don't, I don't want to compare

01:55:03.700 tragedies, but I'm just saying like that, that would, the one comfort in losing Nancy is she's

01:55:10.180 at least at end of life. You know, I mean, I know this is like grasping for straw at straws here,

01:55:15.100 but like a baby whose every need depends on you, who you're supposed to keep safe. I just don't

01:55:21.540 know how you'd live with that as a parent. And they've, they've had to, Debra and Jeremy have

01:55:25.160 had to go on and they look at every stroller they did for years, the first few years. And now they

01:55:30.680 look at every, you know, young teenager and think, could it be her? Could it be her? You know,

01:55:35.800 we, we've been trying to help them putting Lisa's picture on as done by the missing for, um, you

01:55:40.940 know, uh, the center for missing and exploited children. It's just, it's so much to ask of just

01:55:47.240 a human to just try to function in your life and not know, I don't know. I'm definitely saying

01:55:54.260 prayers for her. She, she did share an Easter message, uh, with this church, good shepherd in

01:55:58.860 New York. And it was, it sort of betrayed some of the difficulty that she's been feeling when it

01:56:04.760 comes to faith and how this could have happened. Here's a bit of that. Stop 32. We celebrate today

01:56:10.300 the promise of a new life that never ends in death. But standing here today, I have to tell

01:56:20.460 you, there are moments in which that promise seems irretrievably far away. When life itself

01:56:28.260 seems far harder than death. These moments of deep disappointment with God, the feeling of

01:56:36.400 utter abandonment. In my own season of trial, I have wondered, I have questioned whether Jesus

01:56:44.060 really ever experienced this particular wound that I feel. This grievous and uniquely cruel

01:56:51.320 injury of not knowing, of uncertainty and confusion, and answers withheld. In those

01:56:58.280 darkest moments, I have thought, bitterly and perhaps irreverently, that I have stumbled upon

01:57:04.640 a feeling that Jesus did not know. But after Jesus died, on the cross, he cried out, my God,

01:57:10.540 my God, why have you forsaken me? That is the anguished cry of someone who does not know the

01:57:17.080 answers. Perhaps this is too dark a message to share on Easter morning. But I have long believed

01:57:23.840 that we miss out on fully celebrating resurrection if we do not acknowledge the feelings of loss,

01:57:30.840 pain, and yes, death. It is the darkness that makes this morning's light so magnificent,

01:57:39.420 so blindingly beautiful.

01:57:40.860 i don't know i look at that james and she's in a dark place that just her tone the overall

01:57:48.720 message where she went on easter with it you know it's i don't how long does it take in your

01:57:53.500 experience or is there not is there not a usual for like emerging out the other side and being

01:57:59.380 able to feel happy again and you know feel joyful she'll have moments of that she'll have moments

01:58:05.880 of joy and times of happiness. But there will be a melancholy sadness about her for quite a long

01:58:14.200 time. I was listening curiously to her Easter statement, because at least if she has faith,

01:58:24.740 then she has something. If she has no faith and she doesn't believe there is anything after this

01:58:30.360 life, then that would be an incredibly sad situation for her to kind of wrestle with

01:58:36.280 that, you know, there is no, you know, goodness for her mother.

01:58:39.920 But as I've read, she's, her mother was a believer and she's a believer.

01:58:43.780 And, you know, there is some, there is some joy in that.

01:58:46.580 And, and, but as far as on this earth, she'll never be the same.

01:58:52.900 Therapy is right.

01:58:53.740 Will's right.

01:58:54.340 Therapy does work and it does help, but there's no closure.

01:58:57.640 um and and until that happens again i mean i think if if we even had her body um that it would help

01:59:04.560 her immensely and i know she probably would want to hear that but she understands what i'm saying

01:59:08.800 when i say that i mean do you think will that there's any chance nancy guthrie's still alive

01:59:15.380 i don't i i don't i think when we take into consideration her heart condition

01:59:21.400 um and the fact that the medication wasn't taken uh from her bedside table and i don't think these

01:59:27.180 guys were necessarily organised enough to have done their research and got the suitable

01:59:31.520 prescriptive medicines. I sadly don't think she is alive. I think the other issue as well

01:59:38.900 is, as James rightly says, it's a question of getting the body back now. And there are

01:59:43.660 still lots of avenues that can be explored if managed by the right people. And I think

01:59:49.800 there are enough assets, you know, within the private sector, as well as law enforcement

01:59:54.460 down in Mexico that could potentially assist with the search. And again, it's going to be a human

01:59:58.960 intelligence operation, trying to determine who might have been involved in it, and then closing

02:00:03.720 in on it. But it's also getting a message out to the kidnappers to say, look, yes, Nancy may have 0.85

02:00:10.260 passed away. However, regardless whether she's still alive or she's not, we want to give her

02:00:16.020 suitable burial. And please, can you get in touch? We will pay for it. I mean, I myself went to go

02:00:23.300 and recover someone's family or a family member's body.

02:00:28.400 And it was a literal case of the individuals involved

02:00:32.140 giving me the coordinates of where the body was buried.

02:00:35.220 And then obviously me going down there,

02:00:36.820 exhuming it and getting it back to the family.

02:00:39.280 Oh my goodness.

02:00:41.020 I mean, at least maybe they could start with what you said,

02:00:43.520 go to Sonora, Mexico and put up some of those billboards

02:00:46.600 that we discussed them putting up

02:00:48.000 in the Southwestern United States,

02:00:49.540 showing Nancy's picture

02:00:51.160 and the picture of the perpetrator on the doorstep

02:00:54.360 to see if it shakes something loose

02:00:56.400 with the big $1.2 million sign next to it.

02:00:59.620 You never know.

02:01:00.720 I mean, it's at least a hedging.

02:01:02.220 You guys, thank you.

02:01:03.080 I'm sure we'll be talking again soon.

02:01:04.520 It's great to see you both.

02:01:05.220 Good to see you, Megan.

02:01:06.500 Thank you, Megan.

02:01:07.400 Yeah, have a great weekend.

02:01:09.180 And all of you have a great weekend too.

02:01:10.760 Thank you so much for joining us this week.

02:01:12.840 Love talking to you.

02:01:13.900 Love doing the news with all of you.

02:01:15.440 And we'll do it all over again on Monday.

02:01:18.780 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

02:01:20.720 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 10, 2026

Melania Talks Epstein, and New Tyler Robinson Letter Revealed, Plus New TMZ Nancy Guthrie Notes, with Will Geddes and James Hamilton ｜ Ep. 1293

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