Melania Trump's comments on Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell came out of nowhere, and caused immediate and widespread speculation that a hit piece on her will be coming soon. The First Lady of the United States has been a media darling for years, and now she s stepping into the center of the storm.
00:00:30.660Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:00:42.360Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Friday.
00:00:47.160There have been some big updates in the Nancy Guthrie kidnapping case that you may have missed
00:00:51.180with the war in Iran going on. We will bring you the latest with our expert panel in our second
00:00:56.320hour. And something you likely did not miss, but we've got to tell you more about, is the first
00:01:02.020lady of the United States, Melania Trump's previously unannounced remarks yesterday
00:01:06.100about Jeffrey Epstein, which seemed to come out of nowhere. The first lady taking to the
00:01:11.780microphones at the White House saying she barely knew Epstein and his accomplished Ghislaine
00:01:17.020Maxwell, vehemently denying that Epstein had introduced her to President Trump and saying,
00:01:23.180quote, Epstein was not alone, then calling for public congressional testimony from Epstein's
00:01:30.220victims. I have to tell you, everybody in the press was like, what, what, what? I mean,
00:01:36.520it truly was one of those things like, I, I did not have any relationship with Epstein. Okay.
00:01:43.860Oh, all right. Why are you saying that? Who's, who's saying that you did like this story has
00:01:49.640kind of come and sort of gone. And certainly your piece in it has come and gone. And you haven't
00:01:55.080been center stage on the story anyway. It's really been more your husband, not you. Like she got a
00:01:59.540couple of arrows, but not many. And even the stuff they had on her was kind of peripheral. Like maybe
00:02:05.340she knew Ghislaine a little. I don't, it was like, eh, there was never like she and Epstein were
00:02:10.100together or, you know, it was like, why did she do this? That's really what everyone was asking.
00:02:15.540Why? Like, everyone knows, everyone knows in PR, once the storm has passed, you don't do anything to bring it back upon you. Like, if she doesn't want people talking about her relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell or whatever it was with Epstein, then she shouldn't talk about her relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell or Jeffrey Epstein, especially when has that been in the news?
00:02:42.000Have any of you been seeing that in the news?
00:03:04.340But I do know it's very strange that not being at the center of the storm, this woman who has been media savvy now for 10 years decided to make herself at the center of it.
00:09:18.740He was an advisor, a counselor, a rehabilitator, Michael Wolff was.
00:09:22.680So he had hours and hours with Jeffrey Epstein.
00:09:24.400And here he is telling the Daily Beast that he knows when Donald and Melania first became intimate.
00:09:30.620Now, again, the Daily Beast retracted its write-up of that podcast exchange and then edited the comments we're about to play for you out of the podcast after hearing from the First Lady's legal team, writing in an editor's note, quote,
00:09:45.160After reviewing the matter, the Beast has taken down the article and apologizes for any confusion or misunderstanding.
00:10:34.020But, you know, in Epstein talks, talks about, you know, and she's introduced by a model agent, both of whom Trump and Epstein are involved with.
00:11:16.520So clearly they don't stand by what Michael Wolfe said.
00:11:19.520I haven't heard Michael Wolff explicitly comment on it one way or another since then, but clearly the Daily Beast is not standing by that and is responding to the lawyer letter.
00:11:30.500And here's more from the first lady yesterday calling for now congressional testimony from Epstein's victims.
00:11:37.140And keep in mind, this has been over, like the administration has been doing its level
00:11:43.580best to move on from Epstein, which clearly is what Trump has wanted for months now.
00:11:50.200Epstein, who's still talking about Epstein?
00:12:45.860I call on Congress to provide the women who have been victimized by Epstein with a public hearing specifically centered around the survivors.
00:12:56.540give these victims their opportunity to testify under oath in front of Congress with the power
00:13:06.260of sworn testimony. Each and every woman should have her day to tell her story in public if she
00:13:15.680wishes, and then her testimony should be permanently entered into the Congressional record.1.00
00:13:23.780then and only then we will have the truth okay so some of these women
00:13:33.460did testify before congress they went in in september remember some of them stood out
00:13:40.860in front of the capitol and they spoke into the microphones that the day of that and
00:13:52.100And now, instead of saying, right on, Melania, thanks for standing up for us and making sure every single one of us can testify before Congress or whatever.
00:14:01.960I don't really know what Melania is calling for, and I don't know what the victims want at this point either.
00:14:06.740Most of them have been paid out by this Epstein fund already if they have legit claims or in some cases even if they might not, but we're able to convince somebody.
00:14:16.580In any event, they're not happy about this.
00:14:19.160The victims don't seem happy about this.
00:19:57.120A spokesperson for Melania said the president was aware
00:20:00.520that she was going to make the statement.
00:20:02.180However, per MS Now and reporter Jacqueline Alamani, she reported yesterday just got off a quick call with President Trump, who said he did not know anything about the First Lady's statement prior to her on-camera appearance.
00:20:17.700guys this is like beyond effed up like nobody knows what they're like the left hand doesn't
00:20:26.000know what the right hand is doing melanie's making a statement she's telling the press
00:20:29.260the president knew the president directly to a reporter at ms now is saying i didn't know
00:20:33.640anything about it like the spinning and the misleading is just it's kind of out of control
00:20:38.580and uh as for whether there's going to be more hearings here is uh house oversight committee's
00:20:46.360top Democrat, Robert Garcia. We agree with First Lady Melania Trump's call for a public
00:20:50.800hearing with the survivors. We encourage Chairman Comer to respond and to schedule one.
00:20:55.680Tim Burchett, a Republican, said we look forward to working with the First Lady on this very
00:20:59.340important issue. Anna Polina Luna, Republican from Florida, says Chairman Comer has agreed
00:21:05.160to call in the following individuals who were listed as Epstein co-conspirators by the FBI,
00:21:10.160and she names four people. These are co-conspirators who allegedly worked for Epstein,
00:21:13.620knew stuff about Epstein, but not the alleged victims. And as I point out, the victims themselves,
00:21:20.080alleged, are saying, we're done. We did our part. Don't put the burden on us. There was one other
00:21:27.320thing. She mentioned James Carville by name. He did make an allegedly defamatory statement about
00:21:34.680her, but it happened last August. He pulled the comments. He pulled them down. And I don't like,
00:21:42.700okay, I don't know. I think the Carvel, was the Carvel's last August? The Daily Beast thing was
00:21:49.140last August. But I know that Carvel did delete his own comments. Yeah, and his was also from last
00:21:55.340August. And he said at the time, we took a look at what they complained about and we took down the
00:21:59.860video and edited out those comments from the episode. I also take back these statements and
00:22:03.720apologize. So clearly he had gotten a legal nasty gram and realized he was out on a limb he didn't
00:22:10.460want to stay on and pulled it. Okay. That's, that's the Melania Epstein. I got, I tell it to
00:22:16.920you because it's everywhere. We think we figured out what was bothering her, but we cannot believe
00:22:23.240she did that over that, right? Because it had already been clear that the first lady, there0.90
00:22:30.800was the evidence of her knowing Epstein was pretty much non-existent. The evidence of her
00:22:36.800knowing Ghislaine is there, but minimal. So I'm not sure what was added to this story other than
00:22:43.320she's pissed, got it, and maybe she's trying to scare people. So we'll see if another shoe drops,
00:22:50.860somebody else tries to report something about her and they're all unnoticed now. You're going to get
00:22:56.340it from her lawyers if you try to do that. Okay, moving on. When the dollar's convertibility into
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00:24:03.620to the number 989898 today. The situation in Iran remains fraught. And now the vice president
00:24:12.700is on his way to Pakistan for a peace negotiation to try to turn what is a, I mean, let's face it,
00:24:19.240near non-existent ceasefire. I don't, I can't say it's totally non-existent because
00:24:23.420we're not bombing Iran right now, so that's good, into a permanent peace. But you'll be shocked,0.70
00:24:32.360shocked to learn that Israel is the fly in the ointment. Now, I just want to take you back to1.00
00:24:37.400something, okay? Here's what I said literally yesterday at this time. It was like 24, 23 hours
00:24:43.560ago. We talked about Iran in our second hour. And it was my thoughts on what actually happened
00:24:50.380around whether Lebanon was supposed to be included in the peace deal, the ceasefire deal.
00:24:56.480Okay, what happened on Tuesday was Trump said, you have till eight or I'm going to end your
00:25:01.180civilization. Then out of nowhere, Pakistan emerged as this like peace broker, Henry Kissinger type,0.53
00:25:08.620the prime minister, like I'll negotiate something. Seemed clear to me that they were dealing with
00:25:13.260the White House on that. And when the prime minister of Pakistan announced the ceasefire
00:25:18.880had been struck in the first bullet point, he mentioned Lebanon and Israel's devastating
00:25:24.640campaign of bombs upon it would be part of the ceasefire. Israel's been bombing Lebanon because
00:25:31.800that's where Hezbollah is, and that's an Israeli enemy. Somehow, by like 11 o'clock that night,
00:25:39.500that had gotten completely stood on its head, and now Israel and the U.S. were claiming Lebanon
00:28:35.060And it remains close to the passageway through the Strait of Hormuz now is to say it's a trickle
00:28:40.800would be to overstate it. Do we have that graph, Steve? Um, this was posted on X where it just
00:28:46.220shows the, the traffic flow through the Strait of Hormuz where, you know, the green line showing
00:28:50.680the flow is basically up toward the top of the graph. And then March 1st, uh, you know, basically
00:28:56.820when we started the war, it just down to the bottom, there's nothing. It's like the, there is
00:29:03.800no graph. It's just down to the very, very bottom, the fallout. And the economic consequences of that
00:29:10.280are yet to be felt in full. We felt a little because, you know, the futures traders can see
00:29:14.680what's going to happen. But the full impact of that massive drop in oil flowing out of the
00:29:21.000Strait of Hormuz is coming our way. So the Strait of Hormuz is closed. And you had that situation
00:29:29.760yesterday where the White House is saying we were on board with Bibi the whole time. Lebanon was
00:29:34.000never part of it. And I tried to tell you that wasn't true. We did agree to that. The prime
00:29:38.060minister of Pakistan tweeted it out for a reason. His initial tweet showed draft prime minister of
00:29:45.780Pakistan, which is not how the prime minister of Pakistan would refer to himself, his staff.
00:29:51.900They would just say prime minister's remarks. They know they're in Pakistan. It clearly came
00:29:57.640from the White House, which clearly used Pakistan to help save face as Trump tried to get off the
00:30:04.880civilization will end as they know it tonight stance and to a place of a ceasefire, which was
00:30:10.020a smart thing to do. Now, what do we get today? CBS News reporting the following. Trump changed
00:30:18.020position on Lebanon's inclusion and ceasefire deal after call with Bibi. Multiple diplomatic
00:30:24.940sources at CBS News tell CBS News that President Trump had been told that the ceasefire announced
00:30:31.420Thursday would apply to the Middle East region, and he agreed that included Lebanon. Mediators
00:30:39.320believe the ceasefire to include Lebanon, and Pakistani Prime Minister Shabih Sharaf announced
00:30:44.780that it did. Iran's Foreign Minister Abbas Aragchi also said it was included. On the day of the
00:30:52.500ceasefire, a White House official told CBS News that Israel had also agreed with the terms of the
00:30:58.400deal that Pakistan had helped to broker. However, the U.S. position shifted following a phone call
00:31:04.360between Netanyahu and Mr. Trump. Two sources familiar with the matter told CBS News that the
00:31:09.160changing U.S. positions and the disjointed remnant of the regime in Iran are making the diplomacy
00:31:14.960highly complex. And that reporting has been matched by multiple others now. That's exactly
00:31:20.080what happened. So Netanyahu won't stop. We tried to get a ceasefire throughout the region. Good
00:31:28.780for us. Good for the Trump administration. But Netanyahu won't allow it. He is bloodthirsty.
00:31:38.300And then yesterday, Trump gave an interview saying to NBC saying he's going to low key it.
00:31:45.260All right. I talked to Bibi. He's going to low key it in Lebanon. And immediately after that, Bibi came out to the cameras and said, full force ahead. Full force is a quote. The ceasefire doesn't include Lebanon. Full force with the bombs.
00:32:02.680these are facts that's what's happening the junior partner refuses to allow the ceasefire to take
00:32:12.000place and you ask yourselves why is that why is it so important to him to keep going because he
00:32:16.660doesn't want the ceasefire just like the president's most ardent bloodthirsty supporters
00:32:21.540who got us into this war don't want the ceasefire they want all-out war with iran going on and on
00:32:29.440and on and on. They're all lamenting the ceasefire. They're upset about the peace process.
00:32:35.400They're very quick to point out how insane they see the Iranian demands as. And look,
00:32:41.540it's a negotiating document. They're starting from one point that Trump knows better than anybody
00:32:45.720how negotiations go. But they want war. And so does Bibi Netanyahu more than anyone. So we won't
00:32:53.480stop. And we really need to reevaluate our relationship with this country. We cannot keep
00:33:02.180getting dragged into these never-ending conflicts or any conflicts thanks to them. We have our own
00:33:09.380problems to worry about. Now, today, just before we came to air, Yashar Ali, a journalist online,
00:33:18.200he writes for many publications, Iranian-American, Iranian by origin, but an American,
00:33:24.580reports the following. The Speaker of Iran's parliament just tweeted that negotiations in
00:33:31.380Pakistan cannot begin until there is a ceasefire in Lebanon and until Iran's assets are unblocked.
00:33:41.360Vice President J.D. Vance has already departed for Pakistan and Air Force Two has left U.S.
00:33:46.840airspace. So where does that leave us? You've got the Speaker of Iran's Parliament. This is the one
00:33:53.680that Trump says we're negotiating with, that this one we can deal with, said the negotiations in
00:33:59.020Pakistan cannot begin. It's a no until there's a ceasefire in Lebanon. So what do we do about the
00:34:07.440junior partner. I really don't know. I just know that this country is a liability for us. Israel
00:34:17.520is a liability for us. Here were the stats I was looking for in the Strait of Hormuz.1.00
00:34:23.340On Wednesday, this is Peter Baker, the New York Times, just four ships, none of them oil tankers
00:34:29.060passed through the Strait. Remember, that's the day after the ceasefire when things are supposed
00:34:32.720to be open. Just four ships, none of them oil tankers, passed through the strait, fewer than
00:34:38.660the day before the ceasefire. And on Thursday, yesterday, just seven ships passed through the
00:34:45.660strait. That's it. Let's be clear. The head of Abu Dhabi, its oil company said, the Strait of
00:34:53.800Hormuz is not open. We know. It's definitely not. And it's not going to be open until something
00:35:03.740significant happens in these negotiations, which now can't start because of Israel,
00:35:10.300which are made necessary to begin with because of Israel. That's where things are. There are also
00:35:17.880breaking developments in the Tyler Robinson criminal trial. We've got that for you. I'll
00:35:23.780update you when we come right back after this. Relief Factor loves hearing from pain-free
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00:36:29.740Unbelievable news just breaking via the Daily Mail, which you're going to want to go visit
00:36:35.380directly. It concerns Brian Noem, the husband of Christy Noem, who was our Department of Homeland
00:36:44.320Security chief up until a couple of weeks ago, one of the most sensitive positions in the U.S.
00:36:50.920government and trusted. And let's not forget, Homeland Security has been very, very focused on
00:36:57.440the ICE raids and the removal of illegals. But Homeland Security for most of the past 25 years
00:37:04.640has been mostly focused on domestic terror attacks, protecting the homeland, determining
00:37:10.500when to raise and lower the homeland threat level. I mean, very, very serious matters.
00:37:17.040And unfortunately, it appears that our secretary was absolutely in a compromised position,
00:37:22.860thanks to her husband, who was openly dealing with these very bizarre0.98
00:37:29.280women who cater to men's bimbo fetish and had been charging Brian Noem a fair amount of money,0.99
00:37:40.660thousands, thousands of dollars to interact with him, to have like saucy talk and picture0.99
00:37:47.820exchanges with them, all while he was at a minimum careless about the fact that he was the Homeland
00:37:54.300security spouse, and then ultimately open about it. You can see in the text messages that have
00:38:01.600been released and that we've reported on directly that he doesn't care. Ultimately, he doesn't care
00:38:06.860if these alleged, like bimbo is a term of art here. It's not an insult. It's like they go by it.0.99
00:38:13.100It's how they get these people to pay them money and they make their breasts like beyond large.1.00
00:38:18.060We talked about one yesterday or two days ago who had a size N bra, N, N like Nancy,
00:38:24.900that large, N. And so the Daily Mail has just dropped a piece with audio of Brian Noem and0.56
00:38:35.740one of his bimbos. Again, forgive the use of the term, feels derogatory, but this is what they0.99
00:38:42.060go by. This woman, her actual name, clearly she's spoken to the Daily Mail, is Shai. I'm not sure
00:38:51.060if that's her given name, but in any event, is Shai Sotomayor. Shai Sotomayor. But she goes by
00:38:57.640Raelynn Riley. She has extra large 2,500 CC breast implants. The woman that we showed you the other1.00
00:39:05.120day had 4,000 CCs, 4,000. I mean, this is like insane. So here's this woman with 2,500. She's
00:39:13.440five feet tall, and she shared dozens of phone recordings with the Daily Mail along with online
00:39:20.040messages revealing her conversations with the now 56-year-old insurance company executive
00:39:25.140who used the alias Jason Jackson, but many of his payments became under his real name,
00:39:33.440which is how virtually all these women figured out who it was.
00:39:36.160Like, it doesn't seem actually to have been much of a secret.
00:39:39.540And the Daily Mail indeed confirms, we've confirmed that the reports that they've confirmed the telephone number was Brian's,
00:39:45.620who also paid for their conversations using an email under the pseudonym, this is Brian's pseudonym,0.98
00:39:51.040Crystal Balls, B-A-L-L-Z 666, and admitted to the alleged bimbos,0.74
00:39:59.520he would like to be referred to by the name Crystal.0.99
00:40:02.560Didn't I say when this story broke that he was going to transition within a year?
00:46:34.420Senior State Department officials tell the Daily Mail
00:46:36.320Noam has had only one meeting this week,
00:46:38.760which was conducted virtually. Her remaining staff were either dispersed throughout the main
00:46:43.140State Department headquarters or working from home. The staff's already been cut in half.
00:46:47.460They have no clear sense of direction. And some in the administration now do not expect Noam to
00:46:52.800survive in her new job. This is before the recordings, according to insiders. Her new
00:46:57.800office was established to combat drug cartels, international criminal organizations, and migrant
00:47:03.140crime in the Western Hemisphere by coordinating with Homeland Security, the State Department and
00:47:08.820the Pentagon. However, there were simply no clear rules or responsibilities for many of the staff
00:47:14.240brought over. The administrative leave, if anything, is an opportunity for folks to figure
00:47:18.900out what they're doing, whether that be at the Shield of the Americas, the State Department or
00:47:23.200wherever. That's that's all we know. Her office is small. Are they going to describe it? This is
00:47:29.920like, I'm sorry that it's come to this, but she's obviously not going to be able to stay in this
00:47:34.140post. The marriage clearly has been over for a long time. I don't know why they're living this
00:47:39.900sham. It makes your skin crawl. This is such an utter betrayal. I really just think this is a
00:47:45.000disgusting betrayal. This is serial cheating. And once you know you're married to a serial
00:47:51.300cheater, your marriage is over. It is over. I know some people have made it. Some people choose to
00:47:58.540like get therapy, work their way through it. Good for you. That is the 1%. In 99% of the cases,
00:48:04.480it would be impossible to rebuild trust if you found out your spouse was doing this and you
00:48:09.940actually had to listen to these recordings. And I just, I think we are now within six months of
00:48:15.060getting the Brian Gnomah's transitioning announcement along with separation and
00:48:19.260divorce for those two. I'm praying for them. I mean, especially her. He's got it. I don't know
00:48:24.180what, but I, this is the whole thing. Okay. Got to move on. Uh, we're going to take another quick
00:48:28.260break. We're going to come back and we are going to do a deep dive with our panel today on Nancy
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00:49:49.960Turning now to the latest in the Nancy Guthrie investigation with quite a few developments to
00:49:56.080get to. TMZ reporting just two days ago that they received two additional notes from the person
00:50:04.780claiming to know the identity of the alleged kidnapper. Okay, so you remember, just to be
00:50:09.300clear, we had ransom notes that came in the first week Nancy was missing, that the FBI was treating
00:50:15.360as legit, that Savannah later told us she viewed as legit. Then we had some other person bomb in
00:50:22.700just to TMZ saying, I know who the kidnappers are. And for the low, low price of one Bitcoin,
00:50:30.460I will tell you. So this guy's not saying I know, he's not saying I have her and it's me. He's
00:50:36.440saying, I know who has her. And I'll give you all the info for one Bitcoin. The messages from
00:50:44.900I guess I'll just call him ransom note writer number two, okay? He's ransom note writer number
00:50:52.300two. Those messages were sent the very same day, well, the newest ones, that Savannah Guthrie
00:50:59.080returned to the Today Show this past Monday, okay? So this person had already sent a couple
00:51:03.400being like, look over here. I know who did it. Hey, no one's taking me seriously. I'm getting
00:51:07.880pissed. And then on Monday, two more, two more. So this guy is not going silent. The person who
00:51:14.820wrote the, you know, ransom note writer number one, who we think may indeed have been the kidnapper,
00:51:20.840has gone totally silent. That person wrote not one, but two notes during the first week
00:51:25.860and then disappeared. This guy's now written, I think, four, and he's not going to be ignored.
00:51:32.880He's unhappy that no one's taking him seriously, and he's taking it out on Harvey Levin of TMZ.
00:51:39.200All right, now, here's Harvey Levin. He's discussing the first note that he received this Monday, this past Monday. It's not the first note ever from this ransom note number two guy. It's, again, I think that guy had already written him at least two prior ones. But it's the first one this week. And here's Harvey describing it.
00:51:58.180We got another letter today from this person, an email saying, I know where her body is and who the kidnapper is.
00:52:08.580Give us give me half a Bitcoin and I'll tell you.
00:52:11.440And this person has been really persistent, knowing that if it's a scam, it's a federal crime.
00:52:19.660Right. But they also made the point that they wanted to make it clear that they have nothing to do with it.
00:52:24.280Right. They've been out of the country. But who knows?
00:52:27.180We forwarded it to the FBI, as we have in the past, and for whatever reason, and this is the thing we haven't figured out, you have to assume that the law enforcement, they believe that this person is not legit.
00:52:39.960Otherwise, they would have advised Savannah to pay the money.
00:52:45.340My spidey senses tell me that there's something about this guy, because one of the emails he sent said early on, time is of the essence to do this.
00:52:55.880And then the next day, he said time is no longer of the essence.
00:52:59.820If he was pulling a scam, why would you say time is no longer of the essence?
00:53:05.260You know, you want to keep the value high.
00:54:51.200Those are the, you know, ransom note writer number one.
00:54:55.680That's what he apparently wrote in his two.
00:54:58.020So Harvey spoke with Ashley Banfield about those notes and listened to this exchange.
00:55:04.780They you heard from the FBI that they believed those first two overtures were really from the kidnappers as opposed to scammers overseas or some ne'er-do-well?
00:55:16.040Yes, but and they are from the same person.
00:55:18.100holy cow. So when Savannah said that, she must have had that indication from the FBI. They must
00:55:24.440have told her that they thought that they were real. Yeah. Now, what I don't understand is that
00:55:28.980she was going to pay and she and for whatever reason, they backed off. They had a reason for
00:55:34.020backing off. And I know they they did something. I don't feel comfortable saying it, but they did
00:55:43.380because they had asked me not to way back then. I don't know if it's changed at this point.
00:55:48.100But they thought they had a way of tracking that Bitcoin address didn't work as you look.
00:55:54.160And they said in the letter that they would kill her if they didn't get the six million by that Monday.
00:56:01.040So it's unclear whether this was foul play or she died because, you know, she was ill.
00:56:06.480She didn't have her meds. So I have no idea.
00:56:09.540The ransom letters did threaten to kill her. Yes.
00:56:13.040now that's obviously dark we kind of thought they might have because you know there's always an
00:56:22.060implicit or else in the letter from a kidnapper demanding money but there's a lot in there and I
00:56:29.200just want to want to add a little something here okay because you heard him say the FBI thought
00:56:36.540he said the FBI believes those first two are from the real kidnapper now we kind of gleaned that
00:56:41.880when Savannah said, I tend to believe that those first two were real, were legit. And we said
00:56:48.940explicitly to you on this show, that must mean the FBI believes that, because that's where her
00:56:53.200information is coming from. And now we get Harvey confirming that the FBI believes those first two
00:56:58.720notes were from the real kidnapper. And so, of course, the next question is, why didn't they pay?
00:57:06.060If they all believed those notes demanding $4 million and then $6 million were from the real
00:57:11.160kidnapper, why didn't the family pay the ransom? And wouldn't that have been a great follow-up
00:57:17.660question for Hoda Kotb to ask Savannah if she could get past her own sniffling and fake crying?
00:57:24.500Maybe we could have gotten that, but we didn't. So Harvey adds on that they were going to pay,
00:57:32.340but they backed off for some reason. That's very interesting. I had never heard that. The family
00:57:36.960was going to pay, but backed off for some reason. And then he speculates there saying,
00:57:42.940maybe it was because, is really what he's intimating, that the FBI thought it had a way
00:57:49.560of tracking the person writing those notes. Because remember, the person writing those notes
00:57:55.620was also demanding to be paid in Bitcoin. And there was a Bitcoin account number in those
00:58:00.400first two notes. And he said they thought they had a way of tracking that person and the account.
01:01:08.360It was the day after all the deadlines had expired.
01:01:13.280Remember, because it was supposed to be on Thursday, the 5th, was the first deadline for $4 million, and I think Monday, the 9th, was the second deadline for $6 million.
01:01:24.320And so this is Tuesday, the 10th, with Harvey saying some amount had been deposited into the alleged kidnapper's account, and Kagan adding to that saying it was under $300.
01:01:37.700And that is what he clearly is now expanding to Ashley Banfield saying they thought they
01:01:46.120had a way of tracking the person who was sending those first two notes, but it did not work.
01:01:54.200And he does reveal to Ashley that they did write, the actual kidnappers, if that's who
01:01:58.920it was, wrote in their letter that they would kill Nancy if they didn't get paid.
01:02:52.880and then you follow the trail from there.
01:02:55.180But I think the reason why no ransom has been paid to date,
01:02:58.420regardless of whatever threats have been made,
01:03:00.500is fundamentally down to a lack of proof of life.
01:03:04.060Now, you and I, we've spoken about this before.
01:03:06.560I've done the negotiation on cases where, unfortunately, the hostage has died,
01:03:12.240and that would be to retrieve the body.
01:03:14.400Now, there are many, many different ways I think they can come at it right now.
01:03:18.440I don't think the trail is necessarily cold.
01:03:20.720I think it is cold in terms of Pima County.
01:03:23.860I think they're utterly useless and beyond any kind of sense or reason,
01:03:28.620and I'm sure we're going to come on to that.
01:03:30.580But I think in terms of the fact that they've got Sonora in Mexico
01:03:33.620as a location, potentially, of where Nancy has been witnessed,
01:03:38.860certainly moving about or being with certain kidnappers,
01:03:42.600I think there's some things you can do down there.
01:03:45.020And I think if there is any credibility
01:03:47.160to some of the claims that have been made,
01:03:50.460there's inevitably going to be, number one,
01:03:53.460they could have duplicated across many of those ransom requests.
01:03:57.240So it may not just be separate people.
01:03:58.960It could be one person who's masquerading as a couple.
01:04:02.260And I think also the other issue, which is really key, is the fact that it's an individual who is unwilling really to help, even in an instance where he says or they claim that Nancy has now died, that they are willing to necessarily help without some sort of payment, which would say to me they're connected to the kidnappers.
01:04:21.960hmm okay that's so interesting so just to be clear because it's very confusing
01:04:26.340the ransom note writer number one who the fbi thinks is legit according to harvey said we are
01:04:34.860threatening to kill nancy yeah but did not say they had killed nancy or at least they may have
01:04:40.580but we haven't heard that from harvey or from the fbi ransom note writer number two who we
01:04:48.580who says, I don't have Nancy, but I know who has Nancy, says she's dead, says she was alive
01:04:56.120and time is of the essence for you to make this Bitcoin payment to me. Otherwise something bad
01:05:01.980is going to happen. And then the next day comes out and says, she's dead. Now she's dead. And
01:05:06.840Harvey, you may have heard in one of those soundbites says, James, why would he, if he's a
01:05:14.160scammer, the second guy, saying, give me a Bitcoin and I'll tell you who did it, why would he say
01:05:20.160she's dead? Like, that doesn't sound like a scammer. A scammer would be keeping his fake
01:05:26.480kidnapping victim that he's got all the information about alive to keep the incentive to pay him
01:05:31.500alive. Well, there's a couple of things also that Harvey's saying. One is persistent. He kept saying
01:05:38.920this individual is persistent which i equate to you know obsessive and obsessive is usually what
01:05:46.180you find with stalkers and people who are mentally not the same as you and me and so those are the
01:05:52.340things i was keying in on and you know live or dead she know or the person number two that you
01:05:58.900keep you know as we're separating these two note note writer number two they just want some money1.00
01:13:13.600And you move progressively on that level.
01:13:16.120And ultimately, any deal that's done or is struck
01:13:19.500is inevitably not going to be as good as what was initially maybe demanded.
01:13:24.080The $5 million, $6 million mark right at the beginning, Megan,
01:13:27.960that's an interesting one because many international insurances
01:13:31.200really will cover on K&R up to about $5 million.
01:13:35.440dollars. So this is potentially someone who does know how the system works to a certain degree.
01:13:42.080Hmm. Okay, James, what do you think? Because one of the issues I have in analyzing the guy who
01:13:48.760wrote the six notes, even though the second one was his last communication, is he could get 1.2
01:13:56.300million from the FBI if he can provide information leading to either Nancy's body, Nancy, or the
01:14:04.880kidnappers and instead he's trying to cash in for the low low price of whatever it is 72 000 bucks
01:14:11.180or whatever you can get a bitcoin for today yeah yeah i mean you're i'm with you on that that's
01:14:16.440the first thing i thought about was why one bitcoin when you can get 1.2 million but let's go back to
01:14:21.820the words i think the words are very important and you nailed it you know his his uh my final
01:14:26.960offer was it letter two and then here come four more and so you know his bluff if you will was
01:14:32.620called and he's like no and he's hanging on he's trying anything he can because he just wants to
01:14:37.060get some money because eventually somebody might pay he's probably done this before and you know
01:14:41.680they try a lot of different tricks and one of them is persistence but i think it's important
01:14:46.500he's also saying some things well two things you mentioned it on language the way in which
01:14:52.040the apostries were used i think when i read the stuff i thought it was english was not the first
01:14:56.660language of the individual um the writing it you know this english is not their first language just
01:15:01.940by the way some of those sentences were organized but the second thing is that he knows the case
01:15:07.680and so that's you know to me very curious it's almost like you know a fan of the case and wants
01:15:14.100to be recognized in some way shape or form and that you know is why they're going through TMZ
01:15:19.160because TMZ is so hot on this thing but Will continues to go back to it and it's it's incredibly
01:15:25.840difficult for me to understand that we're here almost 67 days later. We have still, no one has
01:15:33.620given us a proof of life. This whole thing is unorthodox. You don't go through TMZ as an
01:15:38.640intermediary. You go to the family or you go to law enforcement or both, and you try to get your
01:15:44.400money. So the whole thing has always been very, very unorthodox. And then the last thing I wanted
01:15:51.400to say, and Will mentioned it, was just with regards, oh God, go ahead, Will, because I
01:15:59.360watched it. Yeah. You know what? I think James picked up on a really valid point there, Megan.
01:16:08.540The individuals that either are the legitimate kidnappers or are the fanboys or fangirls of
01:16:16.220for kidnapping and are seeking to exploit it in some shape or form by putting in bogus ransom
01:16:21.800demands. Their viewing, their scouring of the media, even potentially watching us and watching
01:16:29.560your dear self, obviously covering this and seeing the various different analysts and pundits that a
01:16:35.520former agency or former bureau or former MyWorld, who will actually sort of give their thoughts and
01:16:42.020ideas of what's going on. They'll be watching all of that avidly. And that will have a lot of
01:16:47.200bearing on how their OPSEC is. And inevitably, the Bureau, who's been sort of front and center
01:16:52.860on this, will be very guarded about their information, which is why I'm very cautious
01:16:57.540about what Mr. Levin has been saying, because I think it's him speculating on minimal information
01:17:03.600that he's been given. Why would he, I don't know, maybe this is a dumb question, James, but like,
01:17:12.020He knows this is a crime. I mean, he knows this is a crime. He knows that he's the law enforcement's all over this case. The FBI is involved. Does it seem at all reckless to send not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, six, six felonious notes to Harvey Levin at TMZ?
01:17:33.460Like, is that I know these scammers love to scam, but it's one thing when you're calling grandma and it's another when you you've got the eyes of the FBI and multiple cops looking at every single thing you're doing.
01:17:43.860Yeah, I mean, a couple of things there. One, they're not they're not concerned at all about consequences or two, they just don't think that that'll actually happen because they live in a country where they don't think, you know, the FBI is going to come get them or the crime is not of such, you know, severity that the bureau would go down and snatch them up.
01:18:01.640And so they just don't feel like there's any real consequence for doing all of this.
01:18:05.580And I just remember my point that Will was making.
01:18:10.080And that's this unorthodox nature of, you know, we're having to get information on this case from Levin, right?
01:18:16.340Like we you're asking all the right questions.
01:18:19.300And Ashley is also. But where is the FBI?
01:18:22.660Where is the sheriff? Why are they not answering these very good questions you have?
01:18:27.500Like, why didn't you pay the ransom? You just asked that question earlier.
01:18:30.320you know like why didn't you pay the ransom well that's a great question fbi cash patel what
01:18:35.960happened what's the deal you know i'm sure they say something that sounds a lot like what wilson
01:18:40.160saying well we had no proof of life and then lastly with number two you know there is not a
01:18:45.480person walking this planet that doesn't have a cell phone number two could have taken a picture
01:18:49.960of nancy when he quote unquote saw her in sonora which that's a whole thing but he didn't and that
01:18:56.180would have bolstered his case exponentially and made me not think he's a scammer if he had sent
01:19:00.680a picture in to harvey saying hey here she is okay now we're getting somewhere but no such
01:19:06.120evidence came no such proof came um and you know i don't really like the reporting of someone saying
01:19:13.140you know that this guy gave specific information as to where she was sonora is huge right just
01:19:19.580saying i saw her in sonora is that's ridiculous okay can you be more specific please it is a very
01:19:25.060large location okay it would be like saying i saw her in new york city or jimmy hoffa is in new
01:19:30.560jersey like everyone always told us okay like yeah i've heard that before you heard it ladies
01:19:35.720and gentlemen that's from an actual former fbi agent here new jersey is a huge place i mean we
01:19:40.660heard that all the time wait before i go back to will i gotta ask you a follow-up james as the
01:19:46.860former FBI guy. Note number six to Harvey and Harvey got at least one of the two notes that
01:19:56.560may have come from the real kidnapper. Wouldn't the FBI by this point have put some sort of
01:20:05.060tracing ability on Harvey's email since it's like the central receptacle for all kidnapping notes?
01:20:12.660Like, I can see why they couldn't find the first two, you know, but like at this point, when you think the FBI would have said, Harvey, yo, we're going to have to rig it such that everything that comes in is now traceable by us.
01:20:26.100And this guy should be in federal custody soon.
01:20:29.060We'll be careful with that word traceable.
01:20:31.200I mean, you're you're really good with words.
01:20:33.740And so we got to be real careful with our words.
01:20:36.240And even though, yeah, what you're saying, I don't want to talk way too much about it, but that's probably something that on the back end is happening.
01:20:45.600But remember, there is a myriad of ways to obfuscate, hide, and really use an email account that's very hard to find.
01:21:24.060You know, so-and-so just got arrested for drunk driving and you just submit.
01:21:28.800And so the information that you have to provide is minimal and the information of your computer is apparently, or at least you can make it, untraceable because they would have traced it by now on both the first ransom note writer and this second guy.
01:21:43.840I mean, there's not to get too much into tradecraft, but, you know, there's all kinds of cafes where Internet cafes are popping up and you can go in fictitiously, get on a site, put in some information and leave.
01:21:57.520And then, you know, the bureau or whoever is investigating it, they got to go and get camera footage.
01:22:01.460If there is such camera footage, if the person hasn't, you know, obfuscated their their face, if they pay cash.
01:22:06.600I mean, it's really hard. It's hard to capture them.
01:32:00.360you do what we call contact preparation.
01:32:02.200So you prepare yourself for all types of responses
01:32:05.540or solicitations that might possibly be coming through
01:32:08.320from, who supposedly is the kidnapper. But again, comes back to, look, guys, we'll give you the
01:32:15.440money. We don't have a problem with that. We will pay you your amount if it's reasonable and
01:32:20.320practical to be able to do so. Because again, depending on how it's delivered would be very,
01:32:25.100very hard. You know, certainly I can say without incriminating myself in certain parts of the
01:32:30.300world, if you're trying to pay 3 million plus, getting that kind of money locally or getting
01:32:35.500it into that location is very difficult and if that was going to be in mexico that would be a
01:32:40.300challenge regardless of however easy people might believe it might be so really it comes back to
01:32:45.940proof of life megan until they could prove that or proof of death and it only has to be a photograph
01:32:51.680of nancy to be able to do so or video of nancy ideally uh that could be obviously verified that
01:32:58.600it's not ai'd or deep faked or anything else then unfortunately it's always going to be a stalemate
01:33:03.440I mean, there was communication, James. We know that the family, they came on camera,
01:33:09.060the three of them. That was the first we saw them. After Nancy had been taken, they were holding
01:33:14.240hands. Savannah spoke mostly. And they said, we need to know that you have her. That's the video
01:33:22.580when she said, talk to her and you'll see, she's a nice person. But she said, we need to know that
01:33:27.760you have her. So she was asking for proof of life. And there was a second communication
01:33:33.280that we don't know anything about. I mean, we had one report from nerdy addict who's been all over
01:33:41.500this case, but it's unconfirmed that maybe that second note had some more details in it,
01:33:47.400possibly about Nancy no longer being alive. But that's totally unconfirmed. All we've had
01:33:52.920confirmed about the second note is from Kagan, the local Tucson station that did receive it,
01:33:57.920saying the person's trying to convince you, us, that I'm reading from it here. The new note
01:34:04.060contains something the senders seem to think will prove to investigators that they're the same
01:34:08.740people who sent the first note. So that's weird. I mean, that doesn't tell us much. It could just
01:34:13.720be that Kagan is more discreet than Harvey and held back other details. But the kidnapper,
01:34:20.300if that's the kidnapper, did respond to the family because their desperate video came out
01:34:26.700that Wednesday. And we did just check our days. That ransom note, the first one was received on
01:34:33.840Tuesday. So Nancy's gone. She's discovered missing Sunday morning. Tuesday at 1.12 PM
01:34:39.580is when that first demand came in for the 4 million slash 6 million. The family responded
01:34:45.500on wednesday evening we need to know you have her and thursday we get the second note to only kagon
01:34:52.020no longer harvey at 5 30 p.m and then that's it nothing nothing more yeah i'm with will you know
01:35:01.600again i the fbi wants to get her back they don't care about four million dollars or six million
01:35:07.700if that's what it takes that's what it's going to take but they want to get her back and you know
01:35:13.280for me as i'm again i'm not there in it i'm hearing these you know what's being reported
01:35:18.820the only thing that makes any sense to me is that the bureau had the evidence that suggested hey
01:35:25.240this isn't real we should not pay it because as will say it there there's no proof that he has
01:35:30.520her and we can't just throw money away and your hopes and all of the trust confidence you're
01:35:35.720trying to build with a family it's going to go right out the window if you pay four million
01:35:39.280dollars and nothing happens. You don't get them. You don't get her back, you know, anything like
01:35:43.520that. And so, again, you know, when Harvey's saying that, you know, the FBI was serious about
01:35:48.440it. Well, yeah, of course they were serious. This was a couple of days into it. And they're
01:35:52.200running every lead to the ground that they get, you know, as they should. And that makes sense to
01:35:57.920me. But there had to have been something that those people, the team said, hey, look, there's
01:36:03.160just not enough here for us to feel comfortable saying to you, Savannah or family, hey, this is a
01:36:08.440good idea but even now even now savannah thinks those notes were real here she is just as a
01:36:16.380reminder in her today show interview dated march 26 thought 23 there are a lot of different notes
01:36:22.800i think that came and i think most of them it's my understanding are not real and i didn't see them
01:36:32.120But, you know, a person that would send a fake ransom note really has to look deeply at themselves to a family in pain.
01:36:48.200But I believe the two notes that we received, that we responded to, I tend to believe those are real.
01:37:00.600so she still believes it will which is like a special torture yeah because now
01:37:07.260they didn't pay and if she believes they're real she believes those people have her mother or at
01:37:15.800least had her mother and they didn't pay i mean that's just a special kind of hell yeah i've seen
01:37:23.600this before megan and unfortunately more often than not the reason this will happen where the
01:37:29.260family members or family member will start having a heightened level of positivity about the
01:37:35.420possible outcome or a good outcome. And sorry, James, don't wish to be disrespectful to your
01:37:41.080old brethren, but it may be one of the case managers who initially, in their eagerness to
01:37:47.220try and get this matter underway and this case handled, injected a little bit too much hope
01:37:53.960inside her. The one thing when I've trained negotiators myself, the one thing that I always
01:37:59.380say to them is number one, and I've told you this one before, Megan, never lie. That's number one
01:38:04.460rule, because if you do, you're going to come unstuck. Secondly, is remain as neutral as
01:38:10.380possible. Even when you've got the proof of life, even when you've agreed the ransom amount,
01:38:15.360until you get the hostage back in one piece, there's really, you've got to remain as neutral
01:38:20.820as possible. And my concern is those first two letters, it may have been misinterpreted by a
01:38:27.380young case officer or someone attached to the investigation who gave her idea. It may not have
01:38:32.900been the Bureau. It could have been Mr. Levine. It could have been other commentators in the media,
01:38:38.080obviously not your good self, who's being pragmatic about this, but the others may have
01:38:42.420given those glimmers of hope. Well, that leads me to the next thing I wanted to cover with you
01:38:50.760guys, which is Brian Enten continues to report in this case, and he has been digging on the
01:38:59.600local PD and Sheriff Nanos and has a couple of new reveals, which are not great. They're not
01:39:06.760great. I'll give you the first one here in SOT 26, where he's citing a source close to the
01:39:11.800investigation. Were the initial people who responded inexperienced?
01:39:16.340The people that were there on the scene were not 10-year homicide detectives. They didn't have a lot of experience in homicide at that point, to include the supervisor, who, from my understanding, never investigated a homicide before being installed as the supervisor for the homicide unit.
01:39:37.080So wait, so the supervisor who first responded to Nancy Guthrie's house had never investigated a homicide?
01:40:45.460Yeah, that's what we were talking about last week, where Savannah kept saying, you know, you don't understand. She can't walk to the mailbox. And I and I think I said, you know, this sounds like the responding deputies were trying to talk her into a narrative of, you know, she just walked away. There's probably nothing to it versus looking at it holistically. And, you know, this could be something more than that.
01:41:07.880And so now this undercover individual is basically confirming that.
01:41:12.380And that's exactly what I thought was going on, was they didn't understand what they had.
01:41:17.160And obviously some mistakes were made, and we're all seeing those now.
01:41:21.620And it's callous to say, but I'm not surprised by what he's saying, that the homicide detective or the sergeant of the homicide unit has never worked a homicide.
01:41:34.380And, you know, people have to get involved and ask questions. And if you're electing a sheriff, you know, you got to who are you electing, first of all? And then second of all, who are these people that you're hiring? There has to be accountability. And, you know, thank God we got people like you asking hard questions because, you know, these things shouldn't be going on, but they are.
01:41:52.440and how i mean the the thought of what evidence could have been lost that first day will if you
01:42:00.800have you know a newbie or someone who's relatively inexperienced supervising the whole thing i mean
01:42:09.240it's exactly the kind of thing that could lead to what harvey said at the top of the hour at you
01:42:13.880know 14 minutes ago no leads cold case completely keystone as we've said continually about how the
01:42:21.720sheriff has run this operation it's like sending an electrician to do a plumbing job they had
01:42:27.200entirely the wrong people on it they approached it by having a prismed and focused sort of agenda
01:42:33.580that it was literally a search and rescue rather than it was potentially anything remember when
01:42:39.400they opened up the crime scene within two days and it took them three days to get the bureau involved
01:42:45.500I mean, the whole thing is just catastrophic in terms of mismanagement.
01:42:50.760And ultimately, there are some serious questions.
01:42:53.100They had turned the house back over to the family.
01:42:55.100That's right. Yeah, it was Monday evening.
01:42:56.740But there's some serious questions and accountability that the sheriff has got to answer to
01:43:00.800as to why he deployed the wrong people.
01:43:03.800I mean, I would be doing such a massive investigation on them and the evident incompetence.
01:43:10.600I'm sure people who were tasked by the sheriff probably were confused as much as anybody else as to why they were being tasked.
01:43:17.920Here, the sheriff did speak out to News 4 in Tucson, and here's a little of what he said.
01:43:23.700This sergeant's been the supervisor of homicide for over two years.
01:43:28.300And in that time, he saw some pretty significant, very high-profile cases for this area, the Reddington homicide, the Goodwill homicide.
01:44:28.500It's just like his talk around the speculation about whether a family member may have been
01:44:32.960involved in the disappearance, you know, like that's hurtful. What do you, what do you, is this
01:44:38.460Oprah or is it a homicide investigation? Well, it sounds a lot like Oprah, um, to answer your
01:44:43.480question. It doesn't sound a lot like a homicide investigation and, you know, feelings are an
01:44:48.620interesting thing, but you know, when we're trying to find a lady, 84 years old, you know, feelings
01:44:55.000kind of have to take a back seat. We have to get results. And sometimes that does hurt feelings0.98
01:44:59.160and, you know, I'm sorry, I'm not in the feelings business. You know, we need to be in the results
01:45:02.480business. We need to find this woman. And, you know, to say that no mistakes were made, I mean,0.98
01:45:07.520that's a pretty incredulous statement based on the knowledge we have now.
01:45:13.860Yeah, right. Would you ever say such a thing? Can you imagine that, Will? Like, no,
01:45:17.820zero mistakes. Oh, come on. Yeah. I mean, firstly, you lose all credibility and integrity by making
01:45:23.800a blanket statement like that. We all make mistakes. I mean, it's inevitable. And, you know,
01:45:28.960There's a golden rule in our world, and as I'm sure it is with James and his teams, that you make a mistake, you fess up to it straight away, and then you can crack on.
01:45:37.000You resolve it, you remediate, and you move on to the next step.
01:46:50.700I mean, to be honest, I wouldn't want to be working with this clown.
01:46:53.480I would want to put as much distance as I possibly can.
01:46:56.020And I think the concern is this man's got way too much ego.
01:46:59.540He's bathing in the spotlight of the attention that he's getting.
01:47:02.740I mean, I think it was inevitable by the fact that, you know, he was unwilling to address that question about whether he should resign and deferred it through to his team and said, well, everyone's doing a brilliant job.
01:47:13.820Well, yeah, they probably are, but you're not leading particularly well.
01:47:18.780What do you think of what he said there, James?
01:47:20.720The supervisor had been on the job for two years.
01:47:23.240Well, that probably usually means 18 months. There's always this little bit of math that they do, which you've got to elongate the years of service to make it sound more impressive.
01:47:36.460Right. So okay, two years. Great. And you say he saw a homicide down the street or whatever. Did he do that or did the detectives that worked underneath him do that? That's usually what I found.
01:47:48.560And usually, like the department I came from, you were a detective, and then you saw some stuff, and then you became a sergeant, and then you became a lieutenant.
01:47:56.020So there was actually – you knew what the hell you were doing.
01:47:59.040But I was curious if you had heard – I was reading this morning that News Nation and this Brian Enten, that they were the ones that found the blood on the porch.
01:48:07.960Is that your understanding, or did I read that wrong?
01:48:10.820Well, I mean the family seems to have known about it.
01:48:14.680Do you mean like did he find it before the family?
01:48:16.760Like, no, that he saw the blood on the porch, yes, that picture, and that they had to call back to the sheriff's office to say, hey, there's blood on this porch, and then they processed it.
01:49:14.360It's like, yeah, that's right. You didn't think to look everywhere for cameras. That seems like a really relevant thing to find out. How many cameras does she have? Who installed them? Call, call the contractor, find out where they're all hidden. You know, I mean, that's just one basic thing that they didn't do.
01:49:32.760So it's just so frustrating because everybody wants answers.
01:49:36.140In the meantime, Savannah is back on the set.
01:49:40.500I want to show a little bit of her return, which was just this past Monday.