The Megyn Kelly Show - Met Gala Goes Racial, Media's False Trump NBC Narrative, and Affirmative Action Myth, with Andrew Klavan and Jason Riley

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00:00:30.960 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.440 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:00:47.380 And guess what? I'm not kidding you.

00:00:49.900 It is National Astronaut Day. You can't make it up.

00:00:54.180 It just happens to be National Astronaut Day.

00:00:57.380 Gail King, I salute you.

00:00:58.980 I've been and I admire your sacrifice.

00:01:01.980 You too, Lauren Sanchez.

00:01:04.800 I'm laughing so hard.

00:01:06.440 Maureen and Sarah and I were texting about it yesterday.

00:01:08.720 Like, you've got to be kidding me.

00:01:10.220 Like, it just happens to fall right after we do our big astronaut special.

00:01:14.780 Well, if you missed it, you should check it out on YouTube where it's blowing up.

00:01:19.040 It's on our feed right now.

00:01:20.440 In any event, here we are on our way toward our historic flight.

00:01:24.760 And by the way, looking it up on the nationaldaycalendar.com, it says that National Astronaut Day on May 5th, 1961, astronaut Alan Bartlett.

00:01:35.240 Oh, I lost it just as I'm trying to click on it.

00:01:38.980 Shepard, it's about Alan Shepard, first became the first American in space aboard the Freedom 7 space capsule.

00:01:46.660 That was literally the flight to which Gail King compared her vanity.

00:01:50.960 Look, here we are, astronauts with our in-depth training, getting ready for our historic flight that we also took.

00:01:57.020 So it's Maureen and Sarah, I salute you, too, because we also sacrificed for our country.

00:02:02.320 And to all those of you who wrote in appreciating our sacrifice and our trailblazing, people wrote in about how they never realized that because they drive their kids to school every morning, they, too, should be in the Indy 500.

00:02:14.140 See, you get it.

00:02:15.200 You get it.

00:02:16.040 I salute you as well for your sacrifices and your expertise.

00:02:21.160 Okay, moving on to other news.

00:02:22.900 President Trump making news yesterday, sparring with Meet the Press host Kristen Welker, while Jen Psaki gets very offended when asked if she was part of the Biden cognitive decline cover-up.

00:02:35.420 She never saw anything, anything like we all saw.

00:02:38.300 I see nothing at the June debate.

00:02:41.300 It wasn't until then.

00:02:42.600 Sure, Jen.

00:02:43.360 Plus, the Met Gala is tonight, and it's apparently going to be the most politically charged one in years and the most pandering.

00:02:52.900 We've got the perfect guest to discuss it all, Andrew Klavan, host of The Daily Wire's Andrew Klavan Show and author of the new book,

00:02:59.280 The Kingdom of Cain, Finding God in the Literature of Darkness.

00:03:05.080 It's out tomorrow.

00:03:06.000 That's one of the many reasons he's the perfect person to start with the Met Gala on.

00:03:12.800 It's all about finding God in the midst of evil and today's declining culture.

00:03:16.520 This July, there is a global summit of BRICS nations in Rio de Janeiro.

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00:04:17.360 Andrew, I'm not kidding.

00:04:18.760 Like, it's actually quite perfect that you've written a book on finding God in the midst of evil as we watch this Met Gala take place.

00:04:26.000 And the reason they've decided to go hyper-pandering, it's the all-black Met Gala.

00:04:32.960 It's not only blacks who are going, but it's a pandering to black dandyism and the culture of black fashion starting back with certain slaves all the way up to modern day.

00:04:47.140 They, Anna Wintour, Wintour So White, and her partner, who's, like, organizing this whole thing with her, also a white guy,

00:04:55.840 decided that they realized they would take a hit if they just tried to plan this.

00:05:00.080 So they brought in, it feels very much like black tokenism to me, like a focus group of black fashion elites, allegedly,

00:05:09.780 and also just well-known black people like Angel Reese of the WNBA to, like, give them the imprint of approval.

00:05:19.460 And some of these folks had, like, meetings at the Apollo Theater, the New York Times wants us to know.

00:05:24.580 They went to the Apollo Theater to plan tonight's Met Gala, you know, historic theater in Harlem,

00:05:30.420 as they tried to pay homage to black fashion because, I will submit to you and then you take it,

00:05:38.860 they have been embarrassed by the year after year after year press coverage of how disgustingly excessive and over-the-top this showing of wealth is,

00:05:50.920 where the plates go for over $70,000 a ticket, and you've got morons, literally, like the Kardashians and Diddy inside the Met Gala.

00:06:03.180 And I witnessed with my own eyes dry humping in the bathrooms, smoking in the Met Gala bathrooms with cigarettes.

00:06:13.680 Another very famous pair from Wall Street snorting Coke, which my husband Doug saw with his own eyes in the men's room,

00:06:21.460 and making a mockery of this place, which is supposed to house some of our greatest works of art.

00:06:27.420 So now they've decided to try to get over this reputation of Anna Wintour being America's biggest snob,

00:06:34.900 and this thing being the most over-the-top, elitist, evil event, by pandering to blacks.

00:06:42.040 What do you make of it?

00:06:43.300 Well, first of all, I do want to say, Megan, first, thanks for having me on,

00:06:46.800 but also I do want to say that you have picked the person who may care about the Met Gala least in America.

00:06:51.680 I think there may be people who can't, maybe who can't see, possibly, who care about it less, but...

00:06:57.780 This is why you're perfect for it.

00:06:59.340 This is why I'm perfect for it, I know.

00:07:01.000 And I thought it was kind of hilarious that they were going to highlight black fashion.

00:07:06.560 I'm not even sure what black fashion is, to be honest with you.

00:07:09.740 I would have liked it if they have highlighted white fashion.

00:07:12.940 It would have been at least a little different.

00:07:14.260 It's really fascinating to watch a failed elite who has now been rejected by the American public in the last election,

00:07:23.020 basically declared irrelevant, fighting very hard to remain at the top by doing the same things they've been doing for the last 30 years.

00:07:32.980 It's so out of date, it's so old-fashioned, and it's so untoward for this absolute display of pure privilege and wealth

00:07:42.240 to condescend to recognize that some people who wear clothing happen to be black.

00:07:47.880 And when you talk about the Met, it is a world-class museum.

00:07:51.680 It was one of the greatest museums in the world.

00:07:54.180 And to have these people parading through and displaying as really a fashion accessory,

00:08:00.400 they're caring for minorities, they're caring for the poor,

00:08:05.080 they're caring for whatever they're pretending to be caring about,

00:08:07.520 when instead they could just be showing off the fact that they have enough money to be beautiful.

00:08:12.220 And I think most of us would like to see that.

00:08:14.080 Most of us like to see beautiful people being beautiful.

00:08:16.480 Why we have to see beautiful people being virtuous just escapes me entirely.

00:08:20.980 I think it really is fascinating that the people who just were rebuked by the American public in a very big way

00:08:29.380 are clinging to what they've been doing all this time.

00:08:34.080 There's absolutely no taking stock, absolutely no looking in the mirror,

00:08:38.580 no thinking, you know, maybe we did overdo it, maybe we've gone down a wrong path, maybe we are wrong.

00:08:43.980 They can't do any of that because their entire power structure is built on exactly this, on displays of virtue.

00:08:49.900 And I think that it's kind of, I would find it sad if I didn't find it so hilarious to watch them kind of slowly,

00:08:55.780 slowly swirling down the drain.

00:08:57.340 I think they're going exactly where they should go,

00:08:59.860 and I think it's going to continue because, I mean, people are sick of it.

00:09:04.180 You know, I've always wanted to write an article that I've never gotten around to called

00:09:07.640 Netflix Made Me a Bigot by sequestering black work on like a Black Lives Matter band.

00:09:15.300 For like a year.

00:09:16.500 For like a year.

00:09:17.360 Every time you turn on Netflix, all you'd get is like black directors, black actors, black film.

00:09:21.640 It's like, oh my God, like what happened?

00:09:24.400 And I would sit there and go, I'm not going to watch this.

00:09:26.500 I'm not going to click on this and encourage them.

00:09:28.340 And then I'd notice, of course, that some of my favorite actors, you know, Denzel Washington was

00:09:32.300 shuttled into that place.

00:09:34.200 It is like when you go to a bookstore and try to find a copy of an American classic Invisible Man

00:09:39.440 written by a black guy and it's in black literature.

00:09:42.400 It is the most alienating, divisive, bigoted thing you could possibly do.

00:09:48.440 And they do it again and again and again.

00:09:50.420 And it just shows that they don't know any of the people who are being excluded by it.

00:09:54.220 The actual black people who are being excluded by it.

00:09:57.060 And your description, your description of what's going on in the men's and ladies' room,

00:10:01.640 which I had no idea.

00:10:03.920 I witnessed it.

00:10:05.320 It sounds more interesting than the show itself.

00:10:07.300 I'm sorry.

00:10:08.220 Oh my, but it's like, but the disgusting debauchery truly of like, you're in, have some respect,

00:10:13.740 you absolute cultural lowlifes.

00:10:15.820 You got in here because Anna Wintour thought somebody might click to see your half-naked

00:10:20.440 body on her red carpet, but have some respect for the actual great works of art that are

00:10:25.080 in this place.

00:10:26.300 You don't understand true beauty and true culture.

00:10:28.880 Like they only understand it through their Kardashian lens.

00:10:31.800 It's absolutely disgusting.

00:10:33.820 Here's the thing.

00:10:34.740 Here's what they're saying about tonight's gala.

00:10:36.360 Uh, okay.

00:10:38.700 They're calling it super fine, tailoring black style, which the museum says is a cultural

00:10:44.340 and historical examination of black style over 300 years through the concept of dandyism.

00:10:52.080 The Mets show tonight for the first time is entirely devoted to designers of color.

00:10:55.660 As the New York time puts, it focuses on the way black men have used fashion as a tool of

00:11:01.280 self-actualization, revolution, and subversion throughout American history and the black diaspora.

00:11:08.860 According to the Mets website, the exhibition is sponsored by Louis Vuitton, Instagram,

00:11:12.400 and some others, uh, including Conde Nast, Anna Wintour's, uh, owner, the owner of Vogue,

00:11:18.100 not her owner, the owner of her magazine.

00:11:19.720 The New York time says the show, the culmination of five years of work by, uh, Andrew Bolton,

00:11:24.300 the costume Institute's curator in charge to diversify the department's holdings.

00:11:28.700 He's white by the way.

00:11:30.080 So is Anna.

00:11:31.000 That's why they had to have their first ever host committee since 2019, at least, including

00:11:37.220 many black people like Simone Biles, uh, Spike Lee, Tanya Lewis, Lee, Janelle Monáe, Angel

00:11:46.980 Reese, as I mentioned, and Usher.

00:11:48.860 And then the co-chairs of the gala are ASEP, Rocky, Formula One driver, Lewis Hamilton, and,

00:11:55.620 um, Pharrell Williams.

00:11:57.200 The honorary chair is of course, LeBron James, who we all look to as a fashion icon.

00:12:02.820 This is to your point about like, not like taking some of our, you know, great authors

00:12:07.860 and, and putting them into the black author section.

00:12:10.760 I was at an event one time and the interviewer, which she didn't mean to do me any disrespect,

00:12:16.300 but she was talking about my success in the cable news world.

00:12:20.720 And she said, um, you were one of the highest paid women in all of journalism.

00:12:27.120 And I said, you don't have to say woman.

00:12:31.580 And it was true.

00:12:32.660 I wasn't trying to toot my own horn on my salary, but it diminished it, you know, it was

00:12:37.360 like when I was at, you know, the peak of cable, no, there were actually maybe two people

00:12:42.740 in the industry making more than me and they were men.

00:12:45.380 But it's the point is simply don't separate me out based on my lady parts.

00:12:50.100 It diminishes me.

00:12:51.340 And my whole goal is to get to the top period, not just top of the people who have vaginas.

00:12:58.200 That is not what I want.

00:13:00.300 And I'm going to guess that the, my black counterparts in fashion would really not like to have that

00:13:06.920 same asterisk behind their designs or be padded on the head like a pet by Anna Wintour.

00:13:14.540 Yeah.

00:13:15.100 The first, the first female to do something is in fact an insult in its, in its way, but

00:13:19.880 that kind of the point, every movement, every movement in America gets taken over by the

00:13:24.440 left.

00:13:24.600 This is one of the things I blame the right for that.

00:13:27.140 We have no cultural acuity.

00:13:28.900 We have no culture.

00:13:29.940 We're not nimble in the culture like the left is.

00:13:32.460 So, you know, feminism raises, raise some really interesting issues, really important

00:13:36.840 issues, but now it's just leftism in a skirt.

00:13:39.200 You know, the idea that people shouldn't be racist, great idea.

00:13:43.200 But now even that is simply racism, you know, is simply socialism with a black face.

00:13:48.580 Everything they do simply becomes leftism in disguise.

00:13:52.300 And so the division is actually the point, the idea that your identity, you know, you

00:13:57.820 have to, you have to congratulate them on this because the left, who could say, who could

00:14:02.700 have predicted that the left would be able to make the love between men and women problematical,

00:14:07.540 more problematical than it just naturally is.

00:14:09.980 I mean, we all obviously sex and romance are places where we all have problems, but they've

00:14:15.660 actually made it unappealing.

00:14:17.320 People have stopped having babies.

00:14:18.880 People don't get married in time to have babies.

00:14:21.060 People have to, you know, write these long things before they can just say, I would like

00:14:24.780 a guy in my life, or I would like a girl in my life, you know, to, to be different than

00:14:29.440 me and to have a, build a family with and all that.

00:14:32.100 They've made all of that problematical.

00:14:33.800 And as a result, the human race is actually dying out.

00:14:37.180 So congratulations to the left.

00:14:38.940 But all of this stuff is the point.

00:14:40.840 All of this stuff is the point.

00:14:41.920 The point is never, you know, hey, let's be colorblind so that we all treat each other equally.

00:14:46.580 I think we'd all sign on to that.

00:14:48.120 The point is not like, you know, let judge people on their abilities and their talents

00:14:53.620 and not on their sex or their race or anything.

00:14:56.180 We'd all sign on to that.

00:14:57.700 But it's always, it always turns into the most divisive possible thing.

00:15:03.480 So you start out saying, you know, can we tolerate gay people?

00:15:07.880 Absolutely.

00:15:08.440 Let's tolerate gay people.

00:15:09.440 It ends up saying, you know, we have to teach your children, we have to show your children

00:15:13.840 homosexual porn.

00:15:14.840 It's always pushed to the absolute level of social dissolution, because I think the

00:15:19.560 social dissolution is the point.

00:15:21.620 In museums all around the West, Megan, all around the West, there are attacks on the

00:15:26.420 very Western culture that made those museums possible.

00:15:29.440 This is happening everywhere.

00:15:30.680 You can walk into almost any museum and you will see something about white privilege or,

00:15:35.900 you know, Western colonialism.

00:15:37.640 Instead of look at this beauty this culture has produced.

00:15:40.780 So the culture throughout the West has been polluted by this stuff.

00:15:45.400 And it's one thing to attack it, which I love doing, and I think we should attack it

00:15:49.120 endlessly.

00:15:49.880 But I also think people of traditional beliefs, people of Christian religious beliefs, people

00:15:56.600 of patriotic beliefs also have to start making culture.

00:16:00.000 You know, we have to start making something that looks beautiful so that people say, oh, I

00:16:03.980 get it.

00:16:04.340 This is actually better than what these, better than a banana taped to the wall.

00:16:08.220 So let me give you another twist on this.

00:16:11.860 You're the perfect person to be discussing this with.

00:16:13.880 I mean, truly, like the whole notion of your book, The Kingdom of Cain, meant to find God

00:16:18.560 in the midst of evil is what we kind of try to do every day on this show and on yours too.

00:16:24.660 I've heard you.

00:16:25.960 And we are surrounded by truly evil events.

00:16:29.460 And I do believe, I know, I don't mean to sound too dramatic, but I think the Met Gala is

00:16:33.560 one of them.

00:16:34.040 I really do.

00:16:34.580 I think the excesses of people like Sanchez and Bezos are among them.

00:16:40.760 I feel like it crosses over to genuinely evil in a world where people are hurting, where

00:16:46.780 people are struggling, where people have real concerns, to be bragging about traveling with

00:16:51.740 not just your super yacht, but its sister, which just boards your helicopter.

00:16:57.080 And by the way, it's not just them.

00:16:58.360 There's an article about Mark Zuckerberg today talking about how he went over to the fjords

00:17:03.660 in Norway and they have anti-helicopter rules there because there's these majestic mountains,

00:17:09.840 you know, with inside of which are these skinny, beautiful, cold fjords, which are melted glaciers

00:17:15.500 from years ago.

00:17:16.480 And you're not allowed to have a helicopter there to preserve the beauty.

00:17:20.020 And they don't want them landing and they don't want to turn this into LaGuardia Airport.

00:17:23.360 And so what did he do?

00:17:24.200 He brought his yacht and its little sister where it has a helipad.

00:17:28.680 And Bezos has the same thing, has the same, I've seen it.

00:17:31.220 I haven't been on it, but I've seen it.

00:17:33.660 Where you, you can get around the anti-helicopter rule, like because they're, they don't want

00:17:37.480 you landing on one of the mountains by having it land on the sister yacht.

00:17:41.300 And then he goes hella skiing in the, uh, peaks of the fjords.

00:17:46.340 So it's him.

00:17:47.420 It's this, it's supposed to be like some hundred million dollar wedding between Bezos and Sanchez

00:17:53.180 in June in Italy, some over the top situation where, I mean, the amounts of money that are

00:17:59.920 going to be flushed down the toilet.

00:18:02.900 So these two vain, empty vessels can see themselves in people magazine is stomach turning.

00:18:10.540 And the Met Gala, okay.

00:18:12.840 So Anna Wintour and her excesses and her obsession with fashion and over the top, uh, you know,

00:18:18.060 parties like this, where she's surrounded only by the right names is part of the problem.

00:18:22.200 So she, to get the cover, does something about black people to get the extra cover.

00:18:27.500 She has the advisory committee of black people.

00:18:30.300 And then there's this quote in the times, um, one of the advisors, Ms.

00:18:34.960 Karifa Johnson in, in talking about what she hopes to see tonight and what she doesn't

00:18:40.760 want to see, put it more dryly quote, I just really don't want to see any floor length do

00:18:47.320 rags or pimp canes.

00:18:49.700 She said, now I wasn't sure what the do rag it spelled D U R A G was because in my head,

00:18:54.640 that connotes the thing that, you know, some people wear on their heads and indeed that's

00:18:57.560 what it is.

00:18:58.160 That is, it's a do rag.

00:18:59.060 Like, like it almost looks like a bathing cap with like a tie at the back, almost like a pirate's

00:19:02.820 cap.

00:19:03.620 And some people of color wear them.

00:19:05.280 And she's saying, you better not go like pimp with it where it's, you know, it goes all the

00:19:10.360 way down to the floor.

00:19:11.100 You have a pimp cane.

00:19:11.860 So fuck you.

00:19:12.620 If you want to go that way with black fashion.

00:19:15.780 And to me, Andrew, like we have Jason Riley coming on second hour and he, he wrote the book,

00:19:20.820 please stop helping us.

00:19:22.000 And he's got a follow-up out today about affirmative action saying, you know, black people and their

00:19:27.400 ascent in the country was going very well.

00:19:30.420 It was an astronomic curve upward prior to the great society in terms of everything, socioeconomic

00:19:36.880 measures, education, religious attendance, intact families.

00:19:40.500 It wasn't until the government, meaning the left in particular, Lyndon Johnson got involved

00:19:46.420 that things really started to spiral downward.

00:19:48.840 So you don't want to see the do rags and the pimp canes, but I guarantee this woman's a leftist

00:19:54.960 who helped create more of a culture in some sections of the black community that embraced

00:20:00.640 that kind of fashion that she's now embarrassed about.

00:20:03.980 Whereas the, if, if the left had left the black community alone, they probably have total

00:20:10.200 equal parity on all these measures that they like, like to now raise as signs that Republicanism

00:20:16.240 has failed and America has failed.

00:20:18.700 Right.

00:20:19.320 Well, this is what, you know, and Jason is a great, really knows this topic.

00:20:22.400 Well, it's absolutely true.

00:20:23.800 You left out when you were talking about the excesses of wealth, you left out the interview

00:20:27.320 that Michelle Obama just gave, where she was complaining that when she was in the white

00:20:30.980 house, she had to pay for food.

00:20:32.780 And, and I thought like this is, this is indicative.

00:20:36.380 You know, it's funny.

00:20:37.100 America is a country where people don't care if you get rich.

00:20:39.620 They like it.

00:20:40.200 If you get rich, it's like, you know, I lived in Britain for a long time where if you get

00:20:43.040 rich, they cut you down immediately.

00:20:44.500 If you're a success, they cut you down.

00:20:46.080 That's not true in America.

00:20:47.120 In America, we congratulate people for their success.

00:20:49.480 Nobody cares that Jeff Bezos is a billionaire.

00:20:52.460 All we ask is that you behave with a little bit of elegance and a little bit of compassion

00:20:56.340 for people who aren't billionaires.

00:20:58.060 And that seems to be too much for them to do.

00:21:00.120 This is exactly what we're looking at, Megan.

00:21:02.500 We are looking at the alienation of the upper classes from the rest of us.

00:21:08.340 They don't care if we are, if our factories close, they don't care if our towns die.

00:21:13.140 They don't care if globalism has destroyed, not just the manufacturing base, but the soul of

00:21:18.580 the country.

00:21:19.240 They don't care that people are dying by deaths of despair at such numbers that our

00:21:24.320 life expectancy has gone down.

00:21:26.260 They don't care that babies aren't being produced.

00:21:28.600 They've got theirs.

00:21:30.120 And, you know, it is interesting in a country as generous as ours where we're like, you know,

00:21:34.060 good for you, Jeff Bezos.

00:21:35.180 Amazon, a great idea.

00:21:36.540 And nobody loves Amazon more than I do.

00:21:38.420 Just treat people with a little bit of respect and look around yourself and make sure that

00:21:43.700 the other people aren't being crushed beneath your heels.

00:21:46.920 And I think, you know, it's funny recently with the rise of Donald Trump, guys like Bezos

00:21:52.520 seem to have caught on a little bit, which I think is a great thing.

00:21:55.980 Zuckerberg seemed to catch on a little bit.

00:21:58.200 But somehow there are literally two weeks ago, shot his fiance and Gayle King into space

00:22:05.280 and then lectured everybody.

00:22:06.640 Have you been with it cost a million dollars a seat?

00:22:09.760 No, no one has been and no one's going to be going.

00:22:12.840 I'm saving up.

00:22:13.520 I'm saving up.

00:22:14.560 I know.

00:22:15.400 I know.

00:22:16.000 He has lost touch.

00:22:17.800 It is.

00:22:18.140 It is amazing how out of touch they are.

00:22:20.400 But but it's also amazing.

00:22:22.480 What's also amazing is the fact that they are actually being exiled at this moment.

00:22:27.260 As we speak, they are being the elites are clinging to power.

00:22:31.560 They're not clinging to money.

00:22:32.720 They've got plenty of money, but they're clinging to power because the social power, the cultural

00:22:36.940 power that they had is gone.

00:22:38.480 When was the last time you went to a movie that really mattered?

00:22:41.260 When was the last time you saw anything on TV that you actually cared about?

00:22:44.940 Their cultural sensibility has gotten so far away from what people want, what people care

00:22:50.500 about.

00:22:51.100 You know, the look, the Met Gala, people would watch the Met Gala if pretty people showed

00:22:55.020 up in pretty clothes, kept their mouths shut and displayed themselves.

00:22:58.740 I think that's something people like to watch.

00:23:01.160 You know, we all like to watch.

00:23:02.640 We can accept it on those terms.

00:23:03.400 We all like to see pretty actresses and handsome actors dress up and show up for their awards

00:23:08.000 and all this stuff.

00:23:08.620 But when they show up for their awards and they shake their fingers at us and tell us

00:23:11.700 we're voting for the wrong people, not understanding that maybe, you know, the price of eggs has

00:23:17.220 hobbled other people in a way that they don't understand.

00:23:21.220 That's when you start to lose touch.

00:23:22.940 That's when you start to lose touch and you start to lose your cultural power.

00:23:25.960 This is the moment.

00:23:26.740 And what's frustrating for me is this is the moment when people who have insight into what

00:23:32.380 is going on culturally might be creating things instead of just attacking what the

00:23:37.920 left is doing.

00:23:38.980 I think this is the time when, you know, it'd be nice to have somebody buy a studio that

00:23:43.640 would actually produce good quality material for the rest of the country.

00:23:47.960 You know, they're making movies that, you know, they're making movies that only like six

00:23:52.280 or seven people go to see and then they give them Oscars.

00:23:55.100 It's like 60 Minutes, you know, being nominated for an Emmy for butchering an interview, you

00:24:00.240 know, so that it looked anti-Trump.

00:24:01.960 It looked like, you know, Trump's opponent was doing better than she was.

00:24:05.340 And now they're nominated for an Emmy for that dishonesty.

00:24:08.120 It's like the New York Times winning Pulitzer Prizes for covering a Russian collusion story

00:24:13.680 that literally did not exist.

00:24:15.640 That was not a real story.

00:24:16.900 And so they're basically celebrating themselves and elevating themselves and parading themselves,

00:24:21.800 but they're parading themselves to fewer and fewer people.

00:24:24.280 And many, many more people are catching on to the fact that, you know, maybe winning

00:24:28.100 in Pulitzer isn't that important if you're giving it to people for lying.

00:24:31.540 You know, maybe winning an Emmy isn't that important if you're giving it to people for

00:24:34.520 butchering the news.

00:24:35.560 So it is a moment.

00:24:37.040 It's a moment of incredible self-blindness.

00:24:39.380 You know, it's like they it's like they think we we don't see them or they think that somehow

00:24:43.300 they can hold on for another generation.

00:24:45.280 And I don't think they can.

00:24:47.060 But this is the moment when people have to start creating things on the right, whatever

00:24:52.060 you want to call the right conservatives, you know, liberals, I think, are on the right

00:24:56.220 at this point.

00:24:57.040 Whatever whatever that that mindset is that says our traditions matter, our freedom matters,

00:25:01.760 that that nobody has all the answers, that nobody should be so self-certain that they

00:25:06.220 that they understand things so self-certain that they're willing to silence and censor other

00:25:10.640 people, that Marco Rubio won't have to go into the State Department and clear out their

00:25:14.960 their censorship bureau.

00:25:16.580 You know, I mean, that's the kind of thing that I think we got to get rid of.

00:25:19.440 And we have to do it by making a culture that works.

00:25:22.200 I'm thrilled.

00:25:23.060 You know, I noticed in that New York Times article about the Met Gala, they said they

00:25:27.140 cited the fact in their words that Donald Trump had seized power at the Kennedy Center.

00:25:33.700 Well, I'm thrilled for Donald Trump to kick those people out of the Kennedy Center.

00:25:37.820 The Kennedy Center is a national theater and should not be displaying drag queens for kids.

00:25:42.800 That's not what they're there for.

00:25:44.240 They're there to display the best artistic work that this country can produce.

00:25:48.140 But I want to see them start to produce great artistic work at the Kennedy Center.

00:25:52.020 I don't want to see them die.

00:25:53.080 I'm not looking for revenge.

00:25:54.140 I'm looking for reform.

00:25:55.940 This is the moment.

00:25:56.920 This is this is one of the most exciting moments of my lifetime, culturally and politically,

00:26:01.740 because this shift is happening.

00:26:03.540 And I and I hope we take advantage of it.

00:26:05.460 I think it's a beautiful thing, that thing that you're seeing at the Met Gala.

00:26:09.340 It looks like Rome just before it collapsed.

00:26:11.560 You know, yes, 100 percent.

00:26:13.940 That's exactly right.

00:26:15.020 It feels like end of days kind of stuff.

00:26:17.180 And just two two points.

00:26:19.220 The Times points out that given the crackdown on DEI by the Trump administration and all of

00:26:25.000 corporate America and many colleges, even I mean, even colleges now we'll get into this

00:26:29.200 with Jason later, but even University of Michigan got rid of its DEI program, which was it was

00:26:33.900 the worst, the worst.

00:26:35.320 So it's not just the ones Trump is threatening.

00:26:37.300 You know, it's many others are like, let's let's get rid of this.

00:26:39.900 It's been a nightmare.

00:26:41.340 So this looks like the resistance now.

00:26:43.580 Anna Wintour and a winter and her $70,000 plate gala is the resistance now because they're

00:26:52.340 leaning into the ridiculous hyper focus on race in the midst of the country's pushback

00:26:59.320 on this nonsense.

00:27:00.360 And then they also point out that in the past, further complications in the fact that she's

00:27:07.180 hosting this are the fact that in the past she faced her own allegations of creating a

00:27:11.060 racially insensitive workplace at Vogue.

00:27:13.220 And also, despite the many DEI initiatives after 2020, the fashion world has seemingly

00:27:19.620 failed to make good on those promises of the more than 15 appointments at the top of major

00:27:24.040 brands this year.

00:27:25.060 Not a single one was a designer of color, which is totally fine to point out because live by

00:27:30.940 the sword, die by the sword.

00:27:32.700 Maybe they couldn't find black designers who, for whatever reason, rose to the top.

00:27:38.020 Maybe next year they will.

00:27:38.980 Maybe there weren't enough Asians either.

00:27:40.360 I have no idea.

00:27:41.460 Maybe it used to be a meritocracy.

00:27:43.220 And only now are they getting obsessed with race.

00:27:45.580 But the point is, if you're going to live by that sword, and Anna Wintour does now, then

00:27:49.960 you're going to die by it too.

00:27:51.480 And this is her trying to stop herself from dying by it, by being like, but I did a thing

00:27:55.880 promoting black fashion.

00:27:58.600 Look at me.

00:27:59.060 I'm a good person.

00:27:59.840 I had Simone Biles.

00:28:01.220 Okay.

00:28:02.200 Secondly, to your point about when was the last time you saw just like a pure movie that

00:28:06.360 was like just about American values and made you feel good.

00:28:09.540 It happened to be last night.

00:28:10.940 Now, not coincidentally, it was from a film.

00:28:13.220 That was made 15 years ago.

00:28:15.240 But let me tell you what happened.

00:28:17.580 We didn't get to watch the Kentucky Derby on Saturday.

00:28:20.800 We were all all over the place, my family.

00:28:23.080 And so we I knew who won because I am in the news.

00:28:27.900 Right.

00:28:28.020 So I saw who won.

00:28:29.120 But I asked the family, has anybody seen nobody had had seen it.

00:28:32.060 So I said, all right, close your eyes.

00:28:33.340 We're going to watch the Kentucky Derby on Sunday night.

00:28:35.480 I'll cue it up on YouTube.

00:28:37.080 And that's what we did.

00:28:38.000 We watched some local pre-show from Kentucky for half an hour.

00:28:41.440 And then we played the race, which was two minutes.

00:28:43.060 And we wear our little fat.

00:28:44.320 I have a little Kentucky Derby box and we put on fascinators and we put on fun hats and like

00:28:48.620 little scarves and ascots, tie type things for the guys, my sons.

00:28:53.700 It was fun.

00:28:54.560 Anyway, we watched it.

00:28:55.660 And, um, as you know, sovereignty triumphed over journalism.

00:29:00.620 And there's a lot to say there too.

00:29:02.320 Uh, but what got us in the horse watching mood.

00:29:06.000 So we put on that great film from 2010 from Disney secretariat starring Diane Lane.

00:29:15.720 It was great.

00:29:17.180 And John Malkovich as the, as the horse's trainer.

00:29:20.100 Um, it was so good.

00:29:21.820 It was made by the same producers, the same producing team that made the movie miracle on

00:29:25.540 ice and that did, um, invincible, which is a great film with Mark Wahlberg.

00:29:30.240 You know, they, Disney used to know how to make films that were great for the whole family

00:29:36.620 that had wholesome lessons that, that made you feel good about the country and the possibilities

00:29:42.640 here.

00:29:43.180 By the way, I later learned that secretariat was the only non-human included on ESPN's,

00:29:47.960 um, roster of the 100 greatest athletes of the 20th century.

00:29:53.020 So, or maybe it's top 50.

00:29:54.460 I think it might've been top 50.

00:29:55.320 And secretariat was the only horse or even just non-human listed on that because he was

00:30:00.220 just so, what an incredibly talented horse, the greatest race horse to ever live.

00:30:04.040 And anyway, it's one of those things, not unlike miracle with Kurt Russell, where they

00:30:10.180 take you back to the miracle on ice 1980 and the U S hockey team and just make you feel good

00:30:14.160 about the country and something extraordinary that happened here.

00:30:16.600 But look what a difference.

00:30:18.560 You don't have to go, go back before 2025, go to 2020 in 10 years, Disney collapsed on

00:30:25.720 its mission.

00:30:26.720 It's understanding of what America wanted and it's become evil.

00:30:31.780 Yes.

00:30:32.000 I will use that word too.

00:30:33.260 For them.

00:30:33.640 They crossed over into trying to trans our children was so recently, Andrew, that they

00:30:39.160 were still part of the good guys.

00:30:41.560 Yeah.

00:30:41.860 I, well, one of the things about intellectual dishonesty is that it goes along and it goes

00:30:45.720 along and then it falls off the table.

00:30:47.180 This is true in individual life and it's true of corporate life as well.

00:30:50.960 And I think that in the last five years, we have seen the arts in America die.

00:30:55.440 And that's not to say that no one has produced any good work.

00:30:57.960 It's to say that, as I said before, there's very few movies that we all get together and

00:31:02.240 watch and talk about very few television shows that really catch fire.

00:31:06.000 And all the ones that do have all been about bad people.

00:31:08.860 They've all been about antiheroes when they do work because they no longer know how to

00:31:12.460 make stories about men and women who are decent people and are looking for love and looking

00:31:16.360 for the things that ordinary people are looking for.

00:31:19.100 You know, all my life, I have loved stories.

00:31:21.700 My life has been about writing stories.

00:31:23.460 I have read every novel on earth of, you know, of any quality whatsoever.

00:31:28.480 I have seen every movie in the world and I never cared who the people were in the story.

00:31:33.860 I was happy to see a story.

00:31:35.080 I'm an American.

00:31:36.300 You know, Americans look like all kinds of things.

00:31:38.180 I was happy to see a story about Italians.

00:31:39.840 I was happy to see a story about Irish people, Jews, black people.

00:31:42.680 It never, ever mattered to me whatsoever.

00:31:45.060 I never even thought about the fact that that's what I was watching.

00:31:47.500 I thought I was watching stories of good and evil, stories of hope and triumph, stories

00:31:51.020 of failure and despair, all the things we want to tell stories about.

00:31:54.780 Suddenly I'm being told, and this is something that's happened.

00:31:58.220 I mean, I've had numerous people, friends in Hollywood who have basically lost their jobs

00:32:03.640 or have left the business altogether because a white man can no longer get hired.

00:32:08.320 It's very hard for white men to start a career publishing novels right now because everybody

00:32:14.520 has to have it, not just be black, but has to have a name that sounds black or at least

00:32:18.160 sounds colored in some way.

00:32:19.960 And this is deeply offensive because after years of reading books like To Kill a Mockingbird,

00:32:27.740 where we learn that bigotry was wrong, we're suddenly being told, no, no, that was just

00:32:32.140 the wrong bigotry.

00:32:33.120 Once you get the bigotry right, once you're hating the right people, then the hatred is

00:32:37.980 great.

00:32:38.640 Then the hatred is absolutely terrific.

00:32:40.520 And they've turned the values on their heads.

00:32:42.520 And I always tell people, like, the devil doesn't care who gets hated as long as the

00:32:46.920 hating gets done.

00:32:47.860 And so what you have is an art form, storytelling, that has been completely emptied of any viable

00:32:54.720 content, just in the same way that painting has basically become empty.

00:32:59.280 The only place where you can see visual art that really matters is in video games, and

00:33:03.900 even those are under attack by the woke ideologues.

00:33:07.840 Ideology is death to art.

00:33:10.100 You know, the other day, and this is kind of on what's happening now, I watched that film

00:33:13.780 Conclave, which is about getting a new pope.

00:33:17.600 So, yeah, you said, oh, you're absolutely right.

00:33:19.780 But it starts out with the good guy in it, you know, played by Ralph Fiennes, making a

00:33:23.380 speech saying certainty is a danger.

00:33:26.320 I completely agree.

00:33:27.440 I think that certainty is one of the big dangers we have.

00:33:30.060 We should all be a little humble, a little bit uncertain about what we believe, a little

00:33:34.640 willing to listen to other people.

00:33:35.980 The rest of the movie is all filled with religious certainty about everything but religion.

00:33:41.020 It's filled with religious certainty about what the church should do about gays, what it

00:33:44.660 should do about marriage, what it should do about women.

00:33:47.840 It's filled with absolutely intense religious certainty about everything except religion.

00:33:53.840 That is where I think the left and the arts, which the left control in this country and

00:33:58.520 in the West in general, that is where they have come a cropper.

00:34:01.680 They have become so certain.

00:34:02.900 They've become so religious in the bad sense of that term.

00:34:06.340 And they've lost all humility.

00:34:07.800 And they don't know how to tell a story anymore.

00:34:09.460 And it's like, listen, I'm not looking to go backwards.

00:34:12.280 I want to see new stuff.

00:34:13.420 I want to see 3D stuff.

00:34:15.420 I want to see all the new kinds of things.

00:34:17.120 But certain things stay the same.

00:34:19.000 Human nature stays the same.

00:34:20.380 Human values stay the same.

00:34:21.560 Beauty stays the same.

00:34:22.920 And I think that those are the things that have been absolutely rejected because they've

00:34:26.780 rejected all the values of the West.

00:34:28.600 And those are some of the central values of the West.

00:34:30.980 It's been a really dispiriting time for people like me who love the arts.

00:34:36.660 I mean, I have always loved, as the poet John Keats said, I have loved the principle of

00:34:42.540 beauty in all things.

00:34:43.760 And it's a very dispiriting time to watch for five years where you can't see anything

00:34:48.200 but a lecture on how all of the things that you have found beautiful and good and true,

00:34:53.980 including God and country and family, all of those things were really just terrible,

00:35:00.140 terribly, terribly oppressive to some people who have been invented to be oppressed.

00:35:06.120 And I think that it's incredible how empty the stories that we've seen have been.

00:35:11.320 And so when you say you went back to Secretariat, as you said, that movie, which was a good movie,

00:35:15.220 that movie is not that long ago.

00:35:17.260 And even now, you see small little flickers of remembrance of things that matter.

00:35:23.340 I saw a movie by Steven Soderbergh called Black Bag, which was very clever and glamorous

00:35:27.680 and sophisticated.

00:35:29.660 But it was about marriage.

00:35:30.660 It was about the holiness and sacredness of marriage.

00:35:32.800 It's built into this spy story.

00:35:35.400 And you think like, yeah, people can still do this, but they have to be brave enough to do it.

00:35:39.300 And they have in Hollywood.

00:35:40.340 Now you have to fight the unions who watch every story to be about some, you know, neglected person

00:35:46.360 or you wind up like the movie Reagan, where you can't get nominated for best picture

00:35:51.280 because you didn't have enough LGBTQs on your production set or people of color or indigenous,

00:35:56.840 whatever.

00:35:57.280 I mean, go down the list.

00:35:58.040 But you have to have these quotas filled in order to even qualify for the big awards in

00:36:02.240 Hollywood.

00:36:02.600 So it's just the whole thing is such a farce.

00:36:04.640 It's it's it makes no sense.

00:36:06.600 The you mentioned something at the top about how it's like hard to find a nice movie about

00:36:12.260 a male female relationship.

00:36:14.120 Now you're just like a beautiful, you know, heterosexual falling in love coming of age story.

00:36:19.720 And I want to add to that because not only is it hard to find that, but like pornographic

00:36:28.140 stuff is ubiquitous now, you know, teens like they say, the average 12 year old has already

00:36:36.460 seen triple X porn on one of his devices by the time he's 12.

00:36:42.200 And then you think about and this is no offense, but I saw this headline to my pals over the

00:36:48.160 trigonometry podcast and I like these guys, but I saw online a lot of the women who I follow who are

00:36:54.600 strong women were very angry with them because and saying I'm unfollowing the show because

00:37:00.800 they're interviewing that woman from OnlyFans who had sex with 100 guys in a day and 24 hours

00:37:08.000 and, you know, put it online.

00:37:10.340 And then she's just all about these crazy, very depressing antics that she does sexually.

00:37:17.960 And I see like, I'm not about de-platforming and I still like those guys at trigonometry,

00:37:23.080 but that is definitely not an interview I would do.

00:37:24.940 I would not want to highlight this woman's role in our society.

00:37:28.820 I think it's something we should be feeling really sad and depressed about, not, not giving

00:37:33.440 greater, you know, prominence to or light to, but can you speak to that?

00:37:37.180 Because that's all part of it.

00:37:39.220 Speaking of evil.

00:37:40.780 Well, I think it's really interesting to me that the Biden administration, which targeted Catholics

00:37:46.520 who wanted to go to the Latin mass for investigation, feel that it's against the First Amendment

00:37:52.380 to silence porn.

00:37:54.080 Porn is toxic.

00:37:55.200 It's poison.

00:37:56.000 I don't actually want to outlaw it.

00:37:57.760 I mean, I'd like to outlaw it.

00:37:58.940 I'm not sure I can see a way to outlaw it without destroying people's freedoms and giving the

00:38:03.360 government too much power, but, but it's, it's a toxic, it's toxic.

00:38:07.240 And it's toxic for a really simple reason is it, it strips the most, one of the most important

00:38:12.540 interior things we do, which is making love to one another of everything, but the body

00:38:17.140 outlines that come together.

00:38:18.400 And so it empties out the experience.

00:38:20.580 Boys who get addicted to porn never develop sexually.

00:38:23.380 They can't have sex in real life.

00:38:25.280 They can't relate to actual women.

00:38:26.860 And, and this is part of, and you and I have talked about this before, Megan, but it's

00:38:30.720 probably to me, one of the most important subjects there is.

00:38:34.180 This is part of a, a genuine attempt to erase the category of female from the human experience.

00:38:40.840 I, the, this idea that a guy puts on a dress and suddenly he's a girl, it is, it's, it's

00:38:46.340 deeply offensive, not because I care what that guy does with his life.

00:38:49.700 It's because I care that the society recognizes that being a woman is a very particular experience

00:38:55.380 and includes as, as the center of that experience, motherhood, which is another thing has been,

00:38:59.960 that has been denigrated to the point where women apologize when they say, oh, I'm just

00:39:04.880 a mom.

00:39:05.560 I'm just a mom.

00:39:06.420 Like, you know, you're the center of the creative world.

00:39:09.120 You're the thing that artists imitate.

00:39:11.080 You're the thing that everybody builds the world to protect.

00:39:15.040 And yet you're not just a mom.

00:39:16.780 You're the center of the world.

00:39:18.000 You know, that is, that is actually what you are.

00:39:20.220 And, and this is part of the reason that people don't have babies.

00:39:23.400 You know, they've tried every single thing to get women to have babies.

00:39:26.520 Let's give them $5,000.

00:39:27.900 Let's give them a maternity leave.

00:39:29.940 Let's give them all these.

00:39:30.840 You can't do it because they're denigrated because they're attacked.

00:39:34.540 And porn is kind of the absolute expression of that denigration.

00:39:39.060 The being a woman in, in the act of sex is different than being a man in the act of sex.

00:39:44.160 I shouldn't have to say that, but I think I do.

00:39:46.080 It is an entirely different experience.

00:39:48.140 Look, having, having a guy having sex with a hundred women in a day would also be disgusting

00:39:53.900 and also be immoral, but it's not quite the same thing as the self-immolation of a woman

00:39:59.960 doing that, basically erasing the whole purpose of herself and her body and her soul, I would

00:40:05.800 argue, uh, by this absolutely demonic, uh, display.

00:40:10.680 And I, I love the guys at Trigonometry too, and I understand why they, why they did it.

00:40:14.980 But still, I think that really what you should have on, if you want to talk about that subject,

00:40:19.160 what you should have on is a priest, you know, you should have on like an exorcist or something

00:40:23.660 like that, because that, that is a symbol of a truly broken society broken at its core.

00:40:29.940 And, you know, I, this is a thing where Elon Musk and I are actually on the same page.

00:40:35.080 It is the death of humanity.

00:40:36.400 People stop having babies.

00:40:38.080 You know, it's, it's not just, I don't think humanity will die out because people start

00:40:41.900 having babies, but the places where people have stopped are the places where civilization

00:40:45.760 is, is at its peak, where modernity is at its furthest limit.

00:40:49.600 And I think that that says something about modernity and it says something about the society

00:40:54.920 we've become.

00:40:55.980 There is a very, very strong argument to be made.

00:40:59.000 And this is actually one of the arguments in my book.

00:41:01.540 There's a very strong argument to be made that our society in, in increasingly losing its

00:41:07.540 faith.

00:41:08.580 And I'm not even going to define that faith, just saying the faith in God that basically

00:41:12.580 underpinned our society has gone insane.

00:41:15.320 That our society is a society of illness where people can no longer see the spiritual realities

00:41:21.200 that are right in front of their faces.

00:41:22.900 We know that it was disgusting for that woman to sleep with a hundred people, but it's very

00:41:26.200 hard to put into words without becoming spiritual, without speaking spiritually.

00:41:30.080 It's very hard to say what, what is wrong about it?

00:41:32.520 You know, it's her choice.

00:41:33.560 Why shouldn't she do it?

00:41:34.520 We don't understand why that's disgusting anymore.

00:41:36.780 We know for a fact that it's disgusting for a man in a dress to go into a girl's locker

00:41:42.340 room and undress there, but we can't quite say why, because we haven't got the spiritual

00:41:46.560 diction to speak about it anymore.

00:41:49.040 We actually don't know who we are anymore.

00:41:51.900 We think, you know, the guys, the guys who think they're smart, who think they're cynical

00:41:55.860 and tough and see into the heart of things, talk as materialists.

00:41:59.400 But materialism is completely unsupportable.

00:42:01.820 When I say materialists, I mean people who think that we're nothing but stuff, that there's

00:42:05.760 nothing to us, there's no soul stuff in us, it's just all physicality.

00:42:10.020 That's an indefensible position.

00:42:11.820 It's a position that can't be argued.

00:42:13.440 It's an unscientific position.

00:42:15.100 It's not a position that anybody who knows anything about the deeper levels of reality

00:42:20.820 would support.

00:42:22.700 And yet, and yet, that I think is the default position of intellectuals and artists in our

00:42:28.320 country and in the West.

00:42:30.540 And I think it's driven us insane.

00:42:32.660 I think that there's a certain kind of insanity.

00:42:35.360 You know, I compare it to that, it's called the man in the gorilla suit test.

00:42:38.720 There was a famous test done, I think, in the 90s, where they gave people a picture of

00:42:43.980 people passing around a basketball.

00:42:45.780 And they said, count how many times a guy in a white shirt passes the basketball.

00:42:49.720 And people did that.

00:42:50.660 And they missed the fact that a guy in a gorilla suit walked through the scene.

00:42:54.060 They just didn't see it because they weren't looking for it.

00:42:56.180 And I feel the same way about God.

00:42:57.720 I feel that we have been trained to look at ourselves as things.

00:43:01.340 We talk about morality as if it were a fiction.

00:43:03.880 Smart people say this stuff.

00:43:05.700 They say, oh, morality is just a fiction that we share.

00:43:08.560 There's no such thing as absolute good.

00:43:10.400 And I challenge them to find a planet or a universe in the multiverse where killing a

00:43:17.900 child with an axe is good.

00:43:19.600 We're killing a child with an axe.

00:43:20.800 Even if everybody says it's good, it doesn't become good.

00:43:23.580 There are such things as truth, as goodness, and as beauty.

00:43:27.000 And we've lost that plot.

00:43:29.020 Even the people on the right who know it's there don't have the language to speak about

00:43:32.860 it anymore.

00:43:33.600 And I don't want anybody to adopt my religion.

00:43:37.600 I'm not preaching to anybody.

00:43:39.040 But just the fact that there is something beyond sheer being that underpins all of life,

00:43:45.440 that is, you know, call it the logos, call it the Tao, call it whatever you want to call

00:43:49.180 it, that there is something there.

00:43:50.760 When you forget that, you're not dealing with reality anymore and you start to become insane.

00:43:56.780 And I feel our entire society, the showing porn to children, the watching, the endless

00:44:01.600 watching of porn until you can't make love to a real woman anymore.

00:44:05.180 Women, you know, selling their bodies on OnlyFans and not understanding why that's a

00:44:09.680 problem.

00:44:10.280 All of that.

00:44:11.180 Those are symptoms of mental illness.

00:44:12.660 And I think that that mental illness permeates our society.

00:44:17.380 I think it defines our society rather than being a problem in our society.

00:44:22.660 I'll tell you, on Friday night, we were thrilled to go to our—we have three kids.

00:44:29.320 They're 15, 14, and 11.

00:44:31.440 And the oldest two were confirmed in the Catholic Church.

00:44:35.580 Our eldest was a year behind just because we were asleep at the switch.

00:44:39.360 It was a COVID thing.

00:44:40.200 Whatever.

00:44:40.680 It was fine.

00:44:41.200 It worked out great because they got to go through it together, my older two.

00:44:44.820 And they both got confirmed on Friday night.

00:44:46.740 And I was surprised at how moved I was by the ceremony.

00:44:51.800 I did not expect tears or to really—like, they've been working so hard.

00:44:55.840 Our church in particular does require a lot of, as they call them, the confirmandi.

00:45:01.020 And these kids did a lot over the past two years to earn this right.

00:45:06.080 And it was totally moving.

00:45:08.520 The bishop was there.

00:45:10.060 They had their white gowns on.

00:45:12.180 These young girls in the church with, like, their hair back and a little white ribbon.

00:45:16.600 I mean, it just spoke to something higher and better and purer than what you get.

00:45:24.860 I almost likened it to, like, you know, when you're in a freezing cold church with air conditioning,

00:45:28.460 and then you walk outside on an August day and you get hit in the face by the 90-degree weather.

00:45:32.180 It's almost like that, to go from that kind of a ceremony where you feel connected with God

00:45:36.640 and hopeful about your children's future and their relationship with him

00:45:39.300 and, like, the set of moral blueprint that you get from a relationship with God.

00:45:44.100 And then you come back into the news world and you see, like, the girl who's going on the trigonometry.

00:45:49.840 Again, it's not to bash those guys.

00:45:51.040 I love them.

00:45:51.440 But I just—this woman's choices are really deeply problematic for me.

00:45:55.740 And I just—I feel sorry for her.

00:45:58.200 I feel like someone needs to save her.

00:45:59.780 I don't think she should be promoted.

00:46:01.600 I think she should be, like, somehow saved.

00:46:03.600 And I think we need to be saved.

00:46:05.680 You know, we need to be saved.

00:46:07.100 Stephen A. Smith was asking me, what happened?

00:46:09.180 Like, why did wokeism rise?

00:46:10.260 Why is it here?

00:46:10.800 And I said what I believe, which I think you believe, too.

00:46:13.060 We pushed religion out of the public square and we had nothing left.

00:46:16.260 And these—people need something.

00:46:18.060 You know, people—it's no accident that most people on the right are not woke

00:46:20.880 and most people on the right are religious.

00:46:23.100 And most people on the left are the ones who make up all the woke.

00:46:25.880 And they've pushed God not just out of the public square but out of their lives entirely.

00:46:30.060 They need more—they need more experiences like I had on Friday night

00:46:34.160 and they need less time online watching OnlyFans.

00:46:37.360 Yes, indeed.

00:46:37.980 And, you know, it's not a question—it's not just a question of what they need.

00:46:41.420 It's a question of living in the real world.

00:46:43.380 I think this is the important thing to me is, like, even people on the right,

00:46:47.600 they sort of go to church on Sunday and then they kind of forget

00:46:50.020 when they're in their business mode.

00:46:51.980 They say, well, I have to cut this corner and cut that corner.

00:46:54.400 But, you know, God—if God exists, and I think it's almost a certainty at this point

00:46:59.780 that he does just scientifically, he's the center, the core of reality.

00:47:04.460 Reality is an expression of his nature.

00:47:06.720 And so if you're living outside of that reality, it's not going to work out well for you.

00:47:11.100 It's like saying there's no gravity because you can't see it.

00:47:13.400 It's just not going to work out well for you.

00:47:15.220 And I think that living in reality is the only way to grow.

00:47:18.240 It's the only way to grow straight and strong.

00:47:19.980 It's the only way to know yourself.

00:47:22.080 And putting yourself into a relationship with God is the only way to continue to grow.

00:47:26.420 I mean, look, at some point—all of us are growing—but at some point,

00:47:31.440 you stop if you're not challenging yourself against the ideal of who you were supposed to be.

00:47:36.960 You stop growing when you say, oh, well, this is who I am.

00:47:39.740 I'm done.

00:47:40.740 But as long as you keep saying, you know, I was made to be something more than this.

00:47:45.180 The thing that you're talking about, about your kid's confirmation,

00:47:48.320 also happens at weddings when you go to a religious wedding,

00:47:51.220 and you suddenly think, you know what?

00:47:52.860 This is a big deal.

00:47:54.380 This is not like no-fault divorce.

00:47:56.420 There is no such thing as no-fault divorce.

00:47:58.600 This is two people joining themselves together in sight of God, you know,

00:48:02.480 and that's making a statement about what it means when a man and woman come together.

00:48:07.540 And look, this is not about legalism.

00:48:09.780 It's not about the law.

00:48:10.740 It's simply about the attitude that you bring to life.

00:48:13.120 Nobody makes more jokes about life than I do.

00:48:15.040 I think I spend more time making jokes about life.

00:48:18.400 But life itself is not a joke.

00:48:20.160 You know, life is a serious business.

00:48:22.040 You have one shot on this plane at what you're doing,

00:48:25.840 and you're given so much—it's a privilege to be alive,

00:48:29.440 and you're given so much beauty to connect to, so much rationality,

00:48:33.080 so much deep design, that to laugh that off and to say,

00:48:38.040 oh, well, it's just marriage, and if we don't like it, we'll get out of it,

00:48:40.540 or to say, you know, it's just sex, and if we just do it,

00:48:43.720 and, you know, who cares how many people, different people we do it with,

00:48:47.400 is to miss what life is.

00:48:49.180 It is to literally miss the reality of life.

00:48:51.600 And I think it's that.

00:48:52.920 I think it's not like necessarily a need or that society goes better,

00:48:56.280 although all those things are true.

00:48:57.800 It's that to live outside of reality is the definition of mental illness.

00:49:02.300 You know, to say that you're something you're not,

00:49:04.020 to act as if you're something you're not.

00:49:06.040 You know, I mean, how would it be if you invited me on the show

00:49:08.180 and I showed up in a Napoleon costume and said, you know,

00:49:11.180 I took some time out from conquering Europe.

00:49:13.620 You know, you'd say, oh, this guy has gone nuts, right,

00:49:15.480 because I'm no longer talking about reality.

00:49:17.580 That's the way I feel when people tell me that, you know,

00:49:19.900 life is just material and there's no such thing as God.

00:49:22.120 And, you know, the thing is, too, I was reminded, as I often am at church

00:49:27.320 and church-related events, it's not just the relationship with God.

00:49:30.300 It's also this sort of scaffolding of the relationships that you develop

00:49:34.060 with the people who are in your church, in this case,

00:49:36.600 the people who were also being confirmed,

00:49:38.360 the families who also had kids being confirmed,

00:49:40.020 and the sponsors, the people who step in to support your children in this journey.

00:49:47.280 I mean, our two sponsors are absolutely lovely people

00:49:49.980 who, like, pulled our kids aside privately and said, you know, like,

00:49:52.760 whatever you need, if you need somebody to talk to you,

00:49:54.580 if you need a ride home, if you need anything, like, we've got you.

00:49:57.420 Like, all of this comes into their lives because of this overall structure,

00:50:01.060 the relationship with God, the church, the week-after-week relationship

00:50:04.540 and, you know, seeing the people, all of that is so valuable

00:50:07.180 and helps fill somebody up, a child in particular,

00:50:10.360 with great ingredients as opposed to the darkness of some of these other things.

00:50:14.760 Just some of the themes that Andrew touches on in his new book, okay?

00:50:18.640 It's called The Kingdom of Cain, Finding God in the Literature of Darkness.

00:50:23.940 It's out tomorrow.

00:50:25.120 We'll be right back with more on that and the news.

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00:52:10.500 President Trump gave an interview to Kristen Welker of Meet the Press.

00:52:16.620 It aired yesterday on Sunday.

00:52:19.260 Before I play you the actual clip of Trump,

00:52:21.360 I'm going to play you a soundbite of your favorite news program,

00:52:24.900 The View.

00:52:25.300 So, discussing, discussing the clip.

00:52:29.740 I love, see how I love, okay, watch.

00:52:33.140 When you say you don't know, you have to check,

00:52:36.560 then you shouldn't be president if you don't know the job.

00:52:39.240 Yeah.

00:52:39.800 Why are you doing this?

00:52:40.960 And don't act like we're the idiots here.

00:52:48.320 Yeah.

00:52:48.640 You know the job.

00:52:49.700 And, yes, you know you are violating your oath of office by doing it.

00:52:55.000 Or am I crazy?

00:52:57.080 Yes, the answer, yes, you're crazy.

00:52:58.980 Sorry, I should have set it up better.

00:53:00.340 But Trump is, they're pulling a part of the interview in which he said,

00:53:04.380 she said, you have to follow the Constitution, don't you?

00:53:07.620 And he said, I don't know.

00:53:09.560 And so that's her being like, oh, you know, you know.

00:53:12.160 And what they're not playing is the full context and follow-up of the exchange,

00:53:17.040 which we will do for you now.

00:53:18.600 Watch.

00:53:20.060 Your Secretary of State says everyone who's here, citizens and non-citizens, deserve due process.

00:53:25.020 Do you agree, Mr. President?

00:53:26.180 I don't know.

00:53:26.860 I'm not a lawyer.

00:53:28.800 I don't know.

00:53:29.800 Well, the Fifth Amendment said this much.

00:53:31.120 I don't know.

00:53:31.500 It seems it might say that.

00:53:34.480 But if you're talking about that, then we'd have to have a million or two million or three million trials.

00:53:39.700 We have thousands of people that are some murderers and some drug dealers

00:53:43.200 and some of the worst people on Earth.

00:53:45.140 Some of the worst, most dangerous people on Earth.

00:53:48.160 And I was elected to get them the hell out of here.

00:53:50.980 And the courts are holding me from doing it.

00:53:54.340 But even given those numbers that you're talking about,

00:53:57.760 don't you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States as president?

00:54:00.560 I don't know.

00:54:01.840 I have to respond by saying again, I have brilliant lawyers that work for me.

00:54:07.840 And they are going to obviously follow what the Supreme Court said.

00:54:12.180 What you said is not what I heard the Supreme Court said.

00:54:15.180 They have a different interpretation.

00:54:18.560 So he's making clear we will follow what the Supreme Court says.

00:54:23.740 But the I don't know comes in the context of him saying, I'm not exactly sure.

00:54:28.660 He's saying, I'm not sure what level of due process the Fifth Amendment would provide in this circumstance.

00:54:33.680 There's no question if it were an American citizen, it would be the utmost.

00:54:36.820 Or if it were an illegal who was arrested on a criminal charge inside the United States facing the loss of liberty within the United States being faced with a penitentiary.

00:54:46.160 But there is a real question about what level of due process they get before being deported.

00:54:52.740 And there's no question, none whatsoever, under expedited removal, which allows the president to get rid of them, certainly along the southern border.

00:55:03.340 And if they haven't been here for more than two years, and Trump has tried to expand it beyond just immediately at the southern border.

00:55:09.260 They get no due process.

00:55:11.200 They get none.

00:55:12.180 They get turned away and ejected immediately.

00:55:14.680 The only way they stop that is if they claim asylum.

00:55:17.620 Now, some people will do that, but many won't.

00:55:19.900 And those people are not entitled to due process.

00:55:21.480 So he is right to wiggle on these sweeping demands that he just say all of these illegals get, quote, due process.

00:55:29.180 It's actually a lot more complicated than that.

00:55:31.400 And he's 100 percent right to defer to his lawyers while saying, I will follow what the Supreme Court tells me.

00:55:38.720 But, you know, the view isn't going to tell you that, Andrew, and neither are the left wing pundits and press who are running with Trump's not sure whether he has to follow the Constitution as the headline out of that interview.

00:55:52.480 That's utter nonsense.

00:55:54.080 They're also asking the wrong question.

00:55:55.320 If 11 million people come into the country illegally and unchecked so they have no idea who they are and then and nobody says anything about the rule of law then, the fact that the rule of law is being broken to the level at amazing levels.

00:56:07.860 And then suddenly he has to try each one of them, which is not in the Constitution, as you say.

00:56:12.960 They have they have a certain amount of due process, but it's much more limited than the due process you and I would get in similar circumstances.

00:56:20.380 He's supposed to not be able to have to deport them one by one.

00:56:23.720 But that's basically making turning the Constitution into a suicide pact.

00:56:28.100 And I think this is the thing that they that actually should be the question.

00:56:31.560 Why are they here?

00:56:32.500 Why were they let in?

00:56:33.460 Why didn't the press make a big fuss?

00:56:35.080 I mean, you had to watch you really had to watch Fox News to find out that this was going on during the Biden administration.

00:56:41.420 If you were watching television, there was no way to know that these people were pouring in up to one hundred and eighty thousand in a single month, where last month I think we had three.

00:56:50.980 And and we were told by the president that he couldn't stop it.

00:56:54.240 He didn't have the power to stop it.

00:56:55.980 We were told by the head of Homeland Security that it was fine.

00:56:59.440 The border was secure.

00:57:01.160 We were lied to again and again and again.

00:57:03.220 And, you know, it's really interesting to me that the press has been making a big fuss over whether or not they knew that Joe Biden had dementia.

00:57:10.380 I mean, everybody knew, but except for the media.

00:57:12.660 But they're saying, oh, well, maybe we didn't cover that well.

00:57:15.560 But they lied about everything.

00:57:16.860 They lied about everything by not asking.

00:57:18.580 They lied about everything by trusting officials and Democrat politicians.

00:57:22.700 And they're still lying.

00:57:23.640 And the thing is, this everything they do is about the destruction of the country.

00:57:28.560 I mean, I don't understand.

00:57:30.260 Well, I sort of do understand why it is that the Democrat Party, one of our two major parties, is supporting the rights of murderers and rapists over the rights of the people who are being murdered and raped.

00:57:41.620 You know, let me play another soundbite on that on that same front, because they got into the question of the border.

00:57:46.980 And, you know, Trump's basically saying to her, isn't it wonderful to say the border secure?

00:57:50.320 And she's obsessing now about can your emergency declaration that justified closing it remain in place now that it's secure?

00:57:56.000 Can it? Can it? Can it? Watch.

00:57:59.100 Border crossings are at their lowest level ever recorded.

00:58:04.540 Is the border good?

00:58:05.660 Is the border now secure?

00:58:07.080 Yeah, it's really secure.

00:58:08.780 It's absolutely secure.

00:58:09.880 Isn't it a beautiful thing when you say it's the most secure it's ever been in the history of our country?

00:58:16.840 Isn't that a nice statement?

00:58:18.020 Well, I'm curious to know what it means.

00:58:21.240 You declared a national emergency on the southern border.

00:58:24.580 Will you lift that that emergency?

00:58:26.860 Well, the biggest emergency is the courts aren't allowing us to take really.

00:58:30.360 We're going to talk about that.

00:58:31.480 But talk to me first about the emergency.

00:58:33.800 Talk to me first about this.

00:58:36.480 That's such a leftist, right?

00:58:38.200 First of all, she won't say yes.

00:58:39.720 Why can't you say yes?

00:58:41.040 It's like if you said, isn't it a good thing that the nationwide number of abortions is down?

00:58:45.880 Like if you were to say that she would never say yes to that.

00:58:47.860 Like whether you're pro-choice or not, isn't it better that we're killing fewer babies?

00:58:52.360 Like you can't say that.

00:58:53.940 There's certain things that should be not controversial.

00:58:56.280 The secure border is one of them, but she won't.

00:58:59.780 And where does she pivot to?

00:59:02.120 OK, maybe you're saying she's being objective.

00:59:03.900 She doesn't want to offer her opinion.

00:59:05.060 Fine.

00:59:05.600 So where does she pivot to?

00:59:07.420 Like maybe how are you going to keep it that way, sir?

00:59:10.080 No.

00:59:10.800 When are we lifting the emergency declaration so it could become unsecure again?

00:59:16.060 Well, this is the way they cover Republicans in general.

00:59:18.480 Of course, with Trump, everything is amped up to the highest level.

00:59:21.600 But it's like the guy has been actually had a very successful first hundred days.

00:59:25.960 It's almost been a giddy success, especially at the border.

00:59:30.360 That's the major thing.

00:59:31.580 But everything he does is looked at from a negative point of view.

00:59:35.380 I mean, even if you read the Wall Street Journal, it's hilarious.

00:59:38.020 They say, well, prices haven't risen, but they might.

00:59:40.880 They might rise.

00:59:41.840 Stocks are going up, but they might go down.

00:59:43.980 You know, you know, it's like it's like being visited.

00:59:45.820 It's like having the news reported by the ghost of Christmas yet to come.

00:59:49.160 You know, you're not seeing the things that will be.

00:59:51.260 You're seeing the things that might be.

00:59:53.200 And everything he does is a mistake.

00:59:55.560 And the fact is, his record is really good.

00:59:58.560 I mean, I understand that he doesn't talk like other politicians.

01:00:01.400 I don't think he thinks like other politicians.

01:00:03.380 I think he thinks more artistically in a way.

01:00:06.020 He sees things.

01:00:06.720 He sees a gestalt instead of looking at one problem and this problem or that problem.

01:00:10.840 But he's been quite successful.

01:00:12.720 You know, the only time I think he ever made a really, really serious mistake was when

01:00:17.640 he listened to experts on COVID.

01:00:19.620 That was his biggest.

01:00:20.520 That was the biggest error of his first term.

01:00:22.780 And so the fact that he's not listening to experts now is is to me kind of thrilling.

01:00:27.280 You know, this thing, everything he does, everything he does is covered as if it's a disaster

01:00:32.680 and as if it's a problem.

01:00:34.440 And what I think is happening, again, I think this is a failed elite that is basically being

01:00:39.840 thrown quietly, dragged out of power as they deserve, as they well deserve after their failure

01:00:44.980 during COVID, which was one of the biggest failures of a leadership class since World

01:00:48.540 War I.

01:00:49.420 As they're being evicted, they're holding on.

01:00:52.080 But and they only have one strategy, which is to demonize Donald Trump and hope he does

01:00:56.080 something wrong when they can say, see, see, we were right all along.

01:00:59.600 And I assume what the point is to keep their base intact, to keep this radical base intact

01:01:05.060 and then eventually find some, you know, Potemkin candidate who stands up and looks like he's

01:01:10.100 a normal person, but will actually be controlled by the deep state.

01:01:13.560 And what Trump is trying to do is he's trying to debilitate the deep state.

01:01:16.440 He's trying to gut it.

01:01:17.240 He's trying to take away its props in in its bureaucracies and its agencies that have absolutely

01:01:22.820 no responsibility.

01:01:24.200 He is trying to get rid of the invasion of people who came into this country with an absolutely

01:01:29.220 illegally while the president is responsible for keeping that border closed.

01:01:33.480 And he's trying he's trying to change the very nature of a country that has been going

01:01:39.120 downhill for the last several years.

01:01:41.080 And I think when we look over at Europe, I mean, this is this was to me my favorite moment

01:01:45.640 of the Trump, the second Trump administration administration so far was J.D. Vance's Munich

01:01:50.340 speech where he asked the question if in if in Britain they're arresting people for praying

01:01:55.140 silently in their own homes because they're too their home is too close to an abortion

01:01:58.840 clinic.

01:01:59.560 How are they like us anymore?

01:02:01.200 And so the left wants all of us to be in that situation.

01:02:04.440 That is where they're headed.

01:02:05.380 That is where they want to go.

01:02:07.460 Europe is a dead culture.

01:02:08.700 And I think the one thing we have to do is like the end of the movie E.T.

01:02:11.760 We have to sort of separate and sort of say, no, you know, we're a living culture.

01:02:15.280 We want to keep the values and the principles that made us the greatest country that's ever

01:02:20.920 existed on Earth.

01:02:21.660 We want to keep them in place.

01:02:23.300 And that's what they're fighting against.

01:02:24.760 That's the battle that Trump is in.

01:02:26.200 And, you know, I have to tell you, I don't think everything Trump does is right.

01:02:29.500 I don't think everything he says is right.

01:02:31.060 But I'm on his side because I think he is defending a Western culture that has given us

01:02:35.880 everything we have.

01:02:36.800 And it's been I think that, you know, I think it's been the greatest culture that Earth

01:02:40.180 has produced.

01:02:40.740 And so, you know, I think that it's fine.

01:02:44.760 It would be fine for a reporter to pick on something he does wrong, but they pick on everything

01:02:49.720 he does as if it's wrong.

01:02:51.280 And I think that everything they highlight is in line with their narrative, which is we

01:02:56.060 do need open borders and more immigrants are good, whether they're legal or illegal.

01:02:59.720 And the fact that virtually no American knows Rachel Morin's name, but virtually all now

01:03:05.640 know Abrego Garcia, this Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who's an illegal, is ridiculous.

01:03:12.140 Rachel Morin didn't get a visit.

01:03:14.060 Her parents, her grieving family from Chris Van Hollen, the sitting senator from Maryland.

01:03:19.060 He's the one who did go over to visit Kilmar Abrego Garcia, an MS-13 accused gang member

01:03:26.340 who Trump's ICE arrested and shipped out to El Salvador.

01:03:30.640 And he's El Salvadoran.

01:03:32.640 The news on him, every day it gets worse.

01:03:36.160 And by the way, the Democrats have now been told reportedly by leadership, stop going there.

01:03:41.620 That's not a good look for us to be sitting having margaritas with this guy, because not

01:03:46.020 only is it very clear that he is MS-13, why is he hanging out with two MS-13 gang members

01:03:51.660 on a street corner?

01:03:52.360 They don't hang around with others.

01:03:54.440 They only hang around with other gang members.

01:03:57.240 Jesse Waters on The Five the other day was doing a very funny thing about how it's like

01:04:02.340 finding a bunch of Italians in a corner gambling establishment in the back room.

01:04:07.880 And one is called The Don, and he's with two other guys.

01:04:12.000 And one of the other guys is like, I have no idea.

01:04:14.680 I don't know, I'm not connected to the mob.

01:04:16.380 No, it's like they only hang out with fellow made men.

01:04:20.360 Like the odds of this being a civilian and not a gang member are extremely slim.

01:04:24.500 Anyway, so now we learn over the past week that this Abrego Garcia, remember his wife

01:04:29.040 looked at us all and went on Good Morning America and tried to claim that he's a very

01:04:32.600 loving husband.

01:04:34.060 Not only did we first learn about the first restraining order, then we learned about the

01:04:37.560 second restraining order.

01:04:38.800 And we now have the audio of Jennifer Vasquez-Sura pleading with a judge for temporary protection

01:04:45.400 from her husband in 2020 and actually describing some of his behavior in the first person.

01:04:50.300 Listen here.

01:04:51.500 I came to fill out a protective order.

01:04:54.560 I think it was in December.

01:04:56.900 But I didn't show up to the court because his family like washed my brain telling me that

01:05:03.000 his dad was sick and not to do it.

01:05:05.480 I called 911 from a disconnected phone.

01:05:08.400 Now they took a long time to get to the house.

01:05:11.320 It was probably like 20, 30 minutes.

01:05:13.520 So I saw a neighbor walking his dog and I opened the door and I was like, help.

01:05:18.520 And then when he heard me, like he grabbed me from my hair and then he slapped me.

01:05:22.080 And then the neighbor, like he didn't know what to do.

01:05:24.180 He didn't know what to react.

01:05:25.400 I have pictures of the evidence, like all the bruises, because even on Wednesday, he hit

01:05:30.300 me like around like three in the morning.

01:05:31.940 He would just wake up and like hit me.

01:05:33.320 And then last Saturday for my daughter's birthday party, before I went to my daughter's birthday

01:05:38.200 party, he slapped me three times.

01:05:40.880 And then last week I did call the police.

01:05:42.560 My sister called the police because he hit me in front of my sister.

01:05:45.760 And then she wound up standing down on her request for a protective order, as virtually all domestic

01:05:53.180 abuse victims do, because they're scared and they get generally threatened by their abuser

01:05:59.540 that they will not pursue that through or the abuse will continue.

01:06:03.640 Don't know exactly what happened in her case.

01:06:05.300 That's speculation on my part.

01:06:07.080 And then there was this, Andrew.

01:06:08.520 He got pulled over with a bunch of others back in 2022, and it was pretty clear that

01:06:14.260 they were trafficking people across the southern border.

01:06:17.200 It was like some car that had been weirdly enlarged without the normal sort of interior

01:06:22.740 and nobody wanted to produce an ID.

01:06:25.900 And the person who was at the driver's seat had all sorts of questionable information that

01:06:31.500 he was giving to cops.

01:06:32.260 It looked like he had a questionable past when it comes to alleged crimes and possible trafficking

01:06:36.760 before.

01:06:37.860 And here's some audio obtained by Fox News of that 2022 traffic stop.

01:06:43.700 You can hear the police saying, and you'll hear it here, he's hauling these people for money.

01:06:49.520 Listen.

01:06:51.040 How many rolls have you got in here?

01:06:52.540 Four?

01:06:53.200 Where?

01:06:53.840 Four seats?

01:06:54.640 Four rolls of seats?

01:06:55.600 Yeah, three seats.

01:06:59.060 Yeah, with it.

01:07:00.900 Did y'all put an extra one in?

01:07:03.120 Huh?

01:07:03.500 Did y'all put another one in?

01:07:04.640 No.

01:07:04.900 Did it come like this?

01:07:07.440 The, the, the, the, the trouble?

01:07:10.520 I've never seen one with that many seats in it.

01:07:13.280 You know what you got, right?

01:07:14.660 Huh?

01:07:15.000 You know what you got here, right?

01:07:16.480 Uh, no.

01:07:18.540 He's, uh, he's hauling these people for money, is what he's doing.

01:07:22.420 Just to clarify, the driver was Kilmar Abrego Garcia, and the owner of the car is the person

01:07:29.680 who had the criminal past.

01:07:30.760 And it had been modified so they could get more people into it.

01:07:34.040 Um, and so, I mean, it's just, this is their poster boy.

01:07:37.120 They don't care.

01:07:38.160 It took leadership to tell them, stop doing photo ops with this person.

01:07:42.300 Um, but this is so on brand for them.

01:07:46.260 Yeah, well, that, that's the interesting thing.

01:07:48.300 I mean, I, I said on my show, ladies, find a man who looks at you the way Democrats look

01:07:52.260 at gangsters, because I think that this is, this is the brand and it's, it's a problem

01:07:57.280 for them.

01:07:57.680 You know, you have, you have to ask yourself, what's the Democrat party's business model,

01:08:01.280 right?

01:08:02.020 Every party, political party theoretically wants to win.

01:08:04.860 These are questions on which the American people are 80, 20, 80% of the people want

01:08:08.840 these people out of the country.

01:08:09.960 And they're defending, not just defending them.

01:08:12.080 They're crying over these, you know, obviously bad hats and not crying over their victims and

01:08:17.400 kind of silencing their victims and shoving them under the carpet.

01:08:21.500 And so you have to ask yourself, what is the business model?

01:08:23.520 And I think the answer is that the business model is global.

01:08:26.500 It's not American.

01:08:27.360 It's global.

01:08:28.020 It's the idea that they are the global elites, that the borders are going to be erased.

01:08:32.380 We're just not going to defend the borders.

01:08:33.840 So it doesn't matter where you are.

01:08:35.200 And ultimately we're going to have the sort of one big, beautiful government instead of

01:08:39.120 the one big, beautiful bill.

01:08:40.300 We're going to have a one big, beautiful government.

01:08:42.020 It's all going to be these people.

01:08:43.460 It's, you know, it's going to be the Met Gala in government.

01:08:46.340 That's what it's going to be.

01:08:47.160 It's going to be those people are going to run the world.

01:08:49.860 And the problem that they have is we kind of like our country.

01:08:52.460 You know, I think most of us still love this country and still want it to be a country

01:08:56.040 and understand that it's not the same country as Saudi Arabia.

01:08:59.400 Saudi Arabia may be a country that Saudi Arabians love.

01:09:02.260 Good for them.

01:09:03.220 You know, they should live and be well.

01:09:04.900 But still, this is our country.

01:09:06.380 It comes from a long tradition that goes back to ancient Greece.

01:09:09.680 And we want to keep it, those traditions and keep those ideas alive.

01:09:13.940 And so what they're doing is when I say they're using the Constitution as a suicide pact, what

01:09:20.280 I mean by that is they're trying to trip us up on our own laws in order to paralyze a

01:09:25.580 president who is trying to secure our country and trying to make our country a hub of manufacturing,

01:09:31.600 trying to make it take away China's power to erase us by closing off our supply lines.

01:09:37.720 All of those things are what he's doing.

01:09:40.060 And it's just amazing to listen to the press try and justify this stuff.

01:09:44.240 You know, isn't isn't a child going to have one less doll if you stop China from ruling

01:09:48.840 the world, you know, and we're supposed to all cry and say, oh, please let China rule

01:09:52.420 the world.

01:09:52.980 You know, we don't want a child to have one less doll.

01:09:55.400 This is the entire thing that the press is doing is basically trying to erase the things

01:10:00.220 we love, you know, faith, family and flag.

01:10:03.460 You know, that those are the things they're trying to erase.

01:10:05.740 And those are the things that Trump is trying to restore.

01:10:08.820 And they even have words for it.

01:10:10.160 Like they'll call us a Christian nationalist and I'll scratch my chin and think, well,

01:10:13.400 I'm a Christian and I love my country.

01:10:14.920 I guess I'm I guess I'm a Christian nationalist.

01:10:16.920 You know, yeah, you made it sound you made it sound like a bad thing, but I was kind of

01:10:19.760 happy that way.

01:10:22.020 Here is Ilhan Omar, speaking of people who don't love our country, when she was caught up with

01:10:28.640 by a Daily Caller reporter, asked about her support for this, this guy.

01:10:36.060 Congresswoman Omar, I'm Miles Morrell with the Daily Caller News Foundation.

01:10:39.340 Do you think more of your Democratic colleagues should be traveling to El Salvador to advocate

01:10:42.940 on behalf of Averigo Garcia?

01:10:44.720 I think you should fuck off.

01:10:46.120 Yeah.

01:10:46.500 I'm sorry.

01:10:47.380 What?

01:10:47.720 Congresswoman?

01:10:48.300 Fuck off.

01:10:49.060 Who should?

01:10:49.760 You.

01:10:50.360 Why me?

01:10:51.620 I'm not taking any of my questions right now, but here you go.

01:10:55.060 Yeah, thanks.

01:10:57.840 Classy.

01:10:58.320 That's nice.

01:10:58.980 I mean, I'm a big fan of the F-bomb, but I host a podcast.

01:11:01.520 I'm not a sitting member of Congress, like actually trying to represent constituents.

01:11:05.020 And there was absolutely nothing wrong with the question.

01:11:07.520 He wasn't rude.

01:11:09.280 He didn't get in her face.

01:11:10.160 That's a totally normal question that's being debated right now on virtually every news

01:11:13.840 channel, but she can't handle it.

01:11:15.820 And she's trying to look like a tough guy.

01:11:17.000 This is the Democrats new approach.

01:11:18.560 They're going to swear more because they think that's Trump's magic.

01:11:22.300 Do not get it.

01:11:24.820 Yeah.

01:11:25.320 They keep saying they got caught in the decency trap.

01:11:28.100 I must have missed that phase of the Democrat party when they got caught in the decency trap.

01:11:32.460 Was it when they had an abortion truck outside of the DNC?

01:11:35.780 Yes.

01:11:36.180 Was that their decency trap?

01:11:37.260 The abortion truck when they had the censorship bureau, when if you said that they were wrong

01:11:42.260 about something, your social media disappeared.

01:11:44.680 When you said that they're the man showing his fake boobs on the White House lawn.

01:11:49.240 Was that their decency trap?

01:11:50.360 That was the that was the decency trap.

01:11:51.940 Yeah.

01:11:52.120 And that's now.

01:11:52.680 But now they're going to get tough.

01:11:53.820 They're going to get tough.

01:11:54.600 And, you know, the thing is, I also love when they talk about messaging.

01:11:58.240 You know, it's our messaging.

01:11:59.760 You know, there is there a way is there a way to talk about letting gangsters come into

01:12:03.400 the country and defending them at the at the expense of victims that can be messaged better.

01:12:08.520 Like, I don't know what that meant.

01:12:09.840 You know, what do you put it to music?

01:12:10.940 I don't know what the message is.

01:12:12.280 This is the message.

01:12:13.040 You just keep saying due process, due process and try, you know, you try to sort of sound

01:12:16.980 like, I don't know, Michael Douglas and the American president, you know, like I am an

01:12:21.720 ACLU card carrying member.

01:12:23.320 And like, this is all about rights and being an American without any acknowledgement of how

01:12:27.180 they came into the country, the massive numbers, what it's done, what it's doing right

01:12:30.300 now to American communities, American citizens, there has to be some proportionality given

01:12:34.640 the given the admission, right?

01:12:36.700 The way they came in should be the way they go out with almost no due process.

01:12:40.800 And in some cases, no due process.

01:12:42.140 And we're fine with that.

01:12:43.300 I asked Tulsi last week when I sat with her, what goes into deporting these people, figuring

01:12:48.740 out who's going to be deported, who's going to be put on the planes to El Salvador.

01:12:51.920 It's very in-depth.

01:12:53.500 It is not he's brown and has a tattoo.

01:12:56.180 Two, it's DEA agents who are very steeped in who's connected to these MS-13 and Trenda

01:13:03.240 Aragua gangs and FBI folios on all these guys.

01:13:08.000 They know who's in the country and they certainly know the ones who are criminals and running

01:13:12.180 gangs.

01:13:12.880 That's why they started there.

01:13:14.920 The left wants you to believe it's just all gay hairdressers who we targeted.

01:13:19.080 And why is why is that not the question, though?

01:13:21.200 This is what really bothers me.

01:13:22.360 You know, Thomas Jefferson said that upholding the law is a duty of every citizen, but it's

01:13:26.960 not the highest duty.

01:13:27.980 The highest duty is survival.

01:13:29.400 And obviously, the country doesn't survive without borders.

01:13:31.840 It obviously doesn't survive if we let in terrorists and gangsters and all these people.

01:13:37.000 So why is the question not how do we get rid of these people?

01:13:40.200 Why isn't that the question?

01:13:41.440 Why isn't, you know, President Trump, what are you doing to get rid of these people?

01:13:44.420 You know, he could answer that question a lot easier.

01:13:46.440 You know, and when they talk about, oh, he's going to make take away Harvard's tax exemption.

01:13:52.820 My question is, you know, you can debate whether Trump has the right to do that.

01:13:56.960 But my question is, how are we going to get Harvard to stop raising an elite class that

01:14:00.860 hates America?

01:14:01.760 How are we going to get Harvard to start raising an elite class that's steeped in the culture

01:14:06.200 of the West and the things that we believe in and love?

01:14:09.040 You know, why is this is this absolutely premier university churning out this garbage?

01:14:14.680 You know, it's like they have to first admit that their people are beating up on Jews.

01:14:18.640 But where are they learning this?

01:14:19.920 Where are they learning to hate Jews?

01:14:21.240 They're learning it in the classroom.

01:14:22.500 They didn't come in that way.

01:14:23.760 They didn't come in hating Western culture.

01:14:25.740 You know, people who start out as like I was an English major, they come in loving books,

01:14:30.140 you know, and they come out hating those books and hating the authors and hating the traditions

01:14:34.040 that made them that book, that made those books.

01:14:36.220 Why isn't anybody, why isn't anybody in the press asking those questions?

01:14:40.360 How do we get them to stop?

01:14:41.980 How do we get the New York Times to report the news?

01:14:44.660 How do we get Harvard to educate our children?

01:14:46.820 How do we get ICE to get rid of these people in the country?

01:14:50.340 And the reason is they're all the same people.

01:14:52.660 You know, they're all the same people.

01:14:53.920 They're all the same leftists who do not love this country, who think that the country

01:14:58.160 needs to be fundamentally transformed.

01:15:00.260 You know, that's not what I think.

01:15:01.480 I think the country needs to be restored and reformed.

01:15:04.000 But that's that's a different thing.

01:15:05.580 In some ways, it needs to go backward to a sense of sacredness about the traditions that

01:15:12.300 made us who we are.

01:15:13.120 They are sacred.

01:15:14.120 The things that made the Constitution what it is are sacred.

01:15:18.360 The Constitution itself can be changed, but the ideas that it rests on, those will never

01:15:22.500 change.

01:15:23.180 And I think the thing is, if you're using that Constitution to get rid of those ideas,

01:15:26.940 which is what I think the left is doing, then the Constitution is being misused.

01:15:30.800 And I think that we have to be stronger.

01:15:33.080 I think we're doing pretty well right now, to be honest with you.

01:15:35.720 I think we have to be very outspoken in just saying, wait, wait, what we're trying to preserve

01:15:40.520 is a country of liberty, is a country of religion, a country of faith and flag and family.

01:15:46.400 And if they don't like that, let's have that argument.

01:15:49.000 I'm happy to have that argument.

01:15:50.700 I love that.

01:15:51.740 Faith, family and flag.

01:15:52.860 That works perfectly for me.

01:15:54.400 I want everybody to buy Andrew's book.

01:15:56.500 It's called The Kingdom of Cain, Finding God in the Literature of Darkness.

01:16:01.360 Very clever, as everything he writes is.

01:16:03.760 It's a pleasure to see you, Andrew.

01:16:05.040 Thanks for being here.

01:16:06.280 Thanks a lot, Megan.

01:16:06.940 It's good to see you.

01:16:08.340 All right.

01:16:08.720 Coming up next, Jason Reilly.

01:16:11.420 He's so good.

01:16:12.560 It's hard to get Jason Reilly.

01:16:14.480 He doesn't do a lot of interviews.

01:16:16.000 You don't see him everywhere.

01:16:17.240 He's totally brilliant.

01:16:19.200 And he's got a new book on the affirmative action fraud that's been perpetrated on us all.

01:16:27.500 And in particular, that has harmed the black community.

01:16:31.560 Jason tells it like, if you can.

01:16:33.400 Next.

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01:19:06.460 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM.

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01:20:04.580 President Trump and his administration have tackled countering DEI from day one of his second term.

01:20:15.020 He means it, trying to eradicate the policies that show special treatment and ignore merit.

01:20:21.680 Many proponents of DEI argue related programs such as affirmative action are necessary to help minority groups get ahead,

01:20:28.500 and they are now working to undermine the Supreme Court ruling that says you can no longer do it in the college admissions setting.

01:20:35.720 But my next guest is here to tell us why the people pushing for affirmative action are completely wrong to do so.

01:20:43.120 Jason Riley is a columnist for The Wall Street Journal and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute.

01:20:47.580 His new book, The Affirmative Action Myth, Why Blacks Don't Need Racial Preferences to Succeed, is out tomorrow

01:20:54.800 and highlights how black achievement was on the rise before racial preference policies,

01:21:00.080 which actually had the opposite effect of the one that was intended.

01:21:04.920 Jason, great to see you again.

01:21:06.260 So this is a great follow-up.

01:21:08.000 I know you've had other books, too, to Please Stop Helping Us, which was your earlier book about how the government just,

01:21:15.140 oh, so desperately wants to, quote, help the black community.

01:21:18.280 And every time they try to, they set blacks back generationally.

01:21:23.160 And this book seems to dovetail perfectly with your earlier book, as well as with a film that we profiled on this show five years ago

01:21:30.820 from Shelby and Eli Steele, What Killed Michael Brown,

01:21:34.500 which takes a look at Ferguson, Missouri, and talks about how blacks were moving up the socioeconomic scale

01:21:40.720 in terms of neighborhoods and families and communities and earnings.

01:21:44.760 And then came Lyndon Johnson's Great Society, which was meant to, quote,

01:21:49.200 help and completely undermined all of that progress.

01:21:53.100 So give us the basic thesis of your book.

01:21:56.160 Well, you laid it out pretty well, and it's good to see you again, Megan.

01:21:59.940 What prompted me to write this book was all the chatter around the Supreme Court decision in 2023,

01:22:08.140 Students for Fair Admissions versus Harvard.

01:22:10.800 And there was a lot of anticipation that the court would rule the way it eventually did,

01:22:15.080 that racial preferences violated the 14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause and were unconstitutional.

01:22:21.860 But the talk in the media, particularly among the left-wing elites, black and white,

01:22:29.460 was that this would be a devastating blow to the black middle class,

01:22:34.500 that these policies that the Supreme Court was about to strike down had created the black middle class,

01:22:40.680 and that without special treatment, without racial favoritism,

01:22:45.080 you know, the black middle class would be decimated.

01:22:47.420 And I said, wait a minute, that is not what the historical record shows.

01:22:51.980 There was a black middle class well before affirmative action policies took effect in the 1970s.

01:22:58.300 And in fact, that black middle class was growing at a significantly faster rate

01:23:03.720 than it grew during the era of affirmative action.

01:23:06.760 So that's why I wrote the book to take on some of these false narratives out there

01:23:11.600 that want to credit government programs and expanded welfare state racial preferences and so forth

01:23:17.020 with black uplift, when in fact, that is not what drove black uplift in this country historically.

01:23:23.560 What does affirmative action do at the college level to the black students and those around them?

01:23:32.140 Well, it's what it does to any student, Megan,

01:23:35.500 that is admitted without the credentials of the surrounding students at the same institution.

01:23:41.600 That's the issue here.

01:23:43.020 It's, as I've said before, if you admitted to Harvard left-handed redheads with SAT scores

01:23:50.460 that were 300 points below those of the average Harvard student,

01:23:53.980 you would see left-handed redheads pooling at the bottom of the class.

01:23:57.740 You'd see them dropping out at higher rates.

01:23:59.840 You'd see them switching from harder majors to easier majors.

01:24:02.840 That's just the way it works.

01:24:04.540 The most important credential for a student going to any institution is that they have

01:24:10.020 to match the academic preparation of the surrounding kids at that school.

01:24:14.800 And when there's a gap, that's when you run into trouble.

01:24:18.960 And affirmative action mismatches kids with schools.

01:24:22.740 And we often speak of it in racial terms, but the same could be true of children of alumni.

01:24:26.960 The same could be true of student athletes, the children of donors, and so forth.

01:24:32.520 Anytime there's a mismatch of the child and the institution,

01:24:35.780 you're going to see those kids pooling at the bottom of the class.

01:24:38.940 And we have a ton of evidence showing this.

01:24:42.240 One of my favorite studies that point this out is one done by an economist at Duke University

01:24:49.060 who interviewed freshmen at Duke and asked them what they wanted to major in.

01:24:55.240 And the students that were black, black men in particular,

01:24:59.800 were asked whether they wanted to major in the STEM fields or in,

01:25:03.480 I should say, the natural sciences and economics.

01:25:06.560 And what happened was about 75% or so of black freshmen males at Duke,

01:25:12.380 so they wanted to major in natural sciences or economics.

01:25:17.860 But only about 35% ended up with a degree in those fields.

01:25:22.380 So you had a 35-point attrition rate.

01:25:26.200 Among white males, it was four points, the attrition rate.

01:25:30.360 And what the economists showed was that what produced this result,

01:25:35.600 what accounted for this disparity entirely,

01:25:38.520 was whether the student had been admitted to the school

01:25:41.820 with the same credentials as other kids at Duke.

01:25:45.080 In other words, Duke admits some black kids that do meet the standards of other kids

01:25:49.060 and some black kids who don't.

01:25:51.140 And that attrition rate could be explained entirely

01:25:53.280 by which black student we were talking about.

01:25:55.620 Those blacks that had been admitted to Duke

01:25:57.620 with the same credentials as everyone else at Duke

01:25:59.860 ended up with a degree in that major.

01:26:02.180 Those who didn't switched out of the major.

01:26:04.620 And so that shows you the mismatch effect of affirmative action.

01:26:07.540 And I remember from, it was either one of our earlier discussions

01:26:11.260 or maybe it was Heather McDonald, your colleague at the Manhattan Institute.

01:26:15.200 But one of you guys was telling me,

01:26:17.320 unfortunately, what happens with a lot of the folks

01:26:19.280 who then do not, they're not able to compete in the sciences

01:26:22.960 and they were on their way to getting an economics degree,

01:26:25.640 but instead they couldn't make it.

01:26:28.520 So they wind up majoring in like African-American studies

01:26:31.960 or women's studies,

01:26:33.480 degrees, which are degrees with which you can do absolutely nothing.

01:26:38.520 Right.

01:26:39.000 And what it also shows is, again, how counterproductive the policy is.

01:26:43.860 So when, for instance, California banned racial admissions

01:26:48.840 back in the mid-90s, and by the way, a number of states,

01:26:51.680 nine or 10 states, even prior to the Supreme Court's decision,

01:26:54.740 had already done this.

01:26:56.000 In big states, Texas, Florida, California.

01:26:58.780 So we have some idea of what's going to happen

01:27:01.020 in the absence of these policies.

01:27:03.040 And what happened in California is that, yes,

01:27:05.620 for a period immediately after the ban went into effect,

01:27:08.420 the most selective schools in the California system,

01:27:11.080 Berkeley and UCLA,

01:27:12.500 saw a reduction in Black and Hispanic enrollment.

01:27:16.700 But the University of California system overall

01:27:19.340 saw an increase in enrollment

01:27:21.300 because kids were going to schools

01:27:23.500 where they were better matched.

01:27:24.960 And more importantly,

01:27:26.760 what California saw was a sharp increase

01:27:29.160 in the graduation rates of Black and Hispanic students

01:27:33.500 throughout the system,

01:27:34.960 including in those more difficult STEM fields,

01:27:37.740 computer science, engineering, physics, and so forth.

01:27:41.040 Much, much higher GPAs,

01:27:43.280 much, much higher graduation rates

01:27:45.080 because kids were being better matched with schools.

01:27:47.940 And so my point is that a policy that was put in place

01:27:52.520 to help increase the ranks of the Black middle class

01:27:55.560 at the end of the day

01:27:57.020 was resulting in fewer Black doctors

01:27:59.980 and Black lawyers and Black engineers

01:28:02.120 than we would have had in the absence of the policy.

01:28:05.300 And I think one of the real tragedies here, Megan,

01:28:07.500 is that when you look at these Black kids

01:28:09.760 who are admitted to some of these selective schools

01:28:12.920 with lower standards,

01:28:14.460 what you find is that they have higher standards

01:28:17.560 than the average college student in this country.

01:28:20.320 They're just lower than they are for students

01:28:23.040 at those more selective schools.

01:28:25.160 So these kids would be hitting it out of the park academically

01:28:28.280 at a less selective institution.

01:28:31.160 I mean, if they're going to Michigan State

01:28:33.140 instead of Michigan,

01:28:33.980 if they're going to North Carolina State

01:28:38.920 instead of UNC, exactly.

01:28:41.040 You're going to have them graduating

01:28:42.600 with the degrees they want.

01:28:43.920 It's not that these kids are unqualified for college.

01:28:47.360 It's just they have been put into a situation

01:28:49.320 where they're in over their head academically,

01:28:51.500 where the pace that classes are taught at

01:28:54.800 is much faster than they're used to.

01:28:56.740 So you're turning really smart kids

01:28:58.700 into artificial failures in the name of helping them.

01:29:01.900 Oh, so interesting.

01:29:02.780 And so I, you know, good riddance to affirmative action

01:29:06.240 is what I say.

01:29:07.380 Well, and the other piece of it is

01:29:09.220 they've ruined what used to be

01:29:13.320 these like really coveted, exciting, sexy degrees

01:29:17.180 like Harvard or Yale or Columbia.

01:29:20.200 Because now for the Black and Brown

01:29:23.300 and whatever other minority students

01:29:25.680 who graduate from there in 2025 America,

01:29:28.000 everybody's like, mm-hmm.

01:29:30.540 I mean, that's just the reality.

01:29:31.580 We're like, mm-hmm.

01:29:32.340 We know how they got in.

01:29:33.380 I mean, that's the truth.

01:29:34.140 Yeah, exactly.

01:29:34.700 Whereas those kids of color

01:29:37.060 who made it in there based on their own merit

01:29:39.420 are getting dragged down with that same eye roll unfairly.

01:29:43.800 Yeah, exactly.

01:29:45.060 You have not only turned a lot of kids

01:29:47.960 into artificial failures,

01:29:49.560 the ones who are successful on their own merit,

01:29:52.460 their success is somehow tainted by these policies.

01:29:55.780 No one wants to be,

01:29:57.040 and what self-respecting person

01:29:58.500 wants to be the token on campus or in the workplace?

01:30:02.100 And that is what affirmative action has done.

01:30:04.540 It also reinforces stereotypes.

01:30:06.500 And the justices got into this in the majority opinion.

01:30:09.800 If you go to an elite school

01:30:11.560 and you're surrounded by minority kids

01:30:14.920 who clearly don't belong there

01:30:16.700 and are struggling in class and so forth,

01:30:18.500 you leave college with a certain view

01:30:20.880 of the intellectual capabilities of minorities.

01:30:24.260 That's what these programs are doing.

01:30:25.700 They're reinforcing that stereotype

01:30:27.820 by setting up these kids to fail.

01:30:29.800 And it's a real shame.

01:30:31.320 And the point I'm making in the book

01:30:32.700 is that in the era prior to affirmative action,

01:30:36.640 this is not what was happening.

01:30:39.120 Kids were attending,

01:30:40.140 black kids were attending schools

01:30:41.820 where they met the credentials

01:30:43.420 and they were graduating

01:30:45.140 and they were closing the gap, Megan,

01:30:47.520 with white college graduates.

01:30:49.500 The rate at which blacks were entering school

01:30:51.480 and graduating from college

01:30:53.360 was getting closer and closer to the white rate.

01:30:56.960 And what we know from the data

01:30:58.560 is that around 1970,

01:31:01.300 that convergence stalled.

01:31:03.980 The rate of college completion among blacks

01:31:06.700 is the same today as it was in 1970.

01:31:10.740 That's the legacy of affirmative action.

01:31:13.740 Because what did it do as a practical matter?

01:31:15.940 I mean, explain why did it stall?

01:31:17.520 Because what the left will tell you is

01:31:19.160 because this is a racist country

01:31:20.480 and the stain of Jim Crow could never be erased

01:31:23.040 and the stain of slavery could never be erased.

01:31:24.960 So they kind of got as far as they could get

01:31:26.800 and everything else is going to have to come,

01:31:28.580 frankly, from Whitey,

01:31:30.140 you know, opening up doors

01:31:31.700 and creating opportunities.

01:31:32.960 We talk a lot about, yeah.

01:31:34.160 Well, the narrative is to talk a lot

01:31:35.740 about the legacy of slavery

01:31:36.880 and the legacy of Jim Crow,

01:31:38.620 not to talk about the legacy of affirmative action

01:31:41.040 or the legacy of the Great Society

01:31:43.660 under Lyndon Johnson.

01:31:44.920 And that's what happened in the 1970s

01:31:47.820 and the late 1960s

01:31:50.180 is we had these expansions of government programs.

01:31:53.960 And I think they interfered with black development

01:31:57.220 that had been ongoing

01:31:58.560 and ongoing, again,

01:31:59.760 at a much faster pace than before.

01:32:03.060 I mean, when you look,

01:32:03.920 I'll give you an example with employment.

01:32:06.000 In the late 1960s,

01:32:07.900 something like 80% of the least educated blacks

01:32:11.620 had a job.

01:32:13.940 By the early 1990s,

01:32:16.360 it was down to fewer than half

01:32:18.140 of the least educated blacks had a job.

01:32:21.560 There again is affirmative action in practice.

01:32:25.880 And one of the other things

01:32:27.340 that happened during this period, Megan,

01:32:29.700 and it's why affirmative action

01:32:31.400 was so ineffective, I believe,

01:32:33.620 one of the reasons,

01:32:34.720 is the deterioration of the black family.

01:32:36.620 So there was not only this convergence going on

01:32:39.480 in terms of educational achievement,

01:32:41.020 there was also a convergence going on

01:32:43.660 in terms of black earnings

01:32:45.540 as a percentage of white earnings.

01:32:47.500 Blacks, again, in the pre-affirmative action,

01:32:49.620 were closing the gap.

01:32:51.560 Gaps were narrowing in economic advancement.

01:32:54.780 So the median income of blacks

01:32:57.680 was getting closer to the median income

01:32:59.540 of household income of whites.

01:33:01.760 But what you saw between the late 60s

01:33:04.840 and the early 90s in particular

01:33:08.300 was a deterioration

01:33:10.120 in black couple-headed households,

01:33:13.820 married blacks heading the household.

01:33:15.800 And you saw an explosion

01:33:16.880 of single black parenting.

01:33:19.060 And so that economic advancement

01:33:20.320 simply could not keep up among blacks

01:33:22.400 because obviously married couples

01:33:24.100 make more money than single couple,

01:33:26.080 than someone who's single

01:33:27.140 and running a household.

01:33:28.380 And so because you saw this proliferation

01:33:30.920 of solo parenting

01:33:32.740 in the black community,

01:33:34.100 that economic convergence,

01:33:36.340 that narrowing of the black-white gap

01:33:38.000 in earnings

01:33:38.520 started moving in the opposite direction.

01:33:41.440 And affirmative action

01:33:42.420 could not make up for it.

01:33:43.980 And the great society programs

01:33:46.080 and the war on poverty efforts

01:33:47.380 could not make up for it.

01:33:49.140 Even a black president

01:33:50.220 and Obama could not make up for it.

01:33:52.700 As I often said back at the time,

01:33:54.140 is that we learn once again

01:33:56.740 that a black man in the White House

01:33:59.160 is not as important

01:34:00.000 as a black man in the home.

01:34:01.540 Even, you know,

01:34:02.760 you can tell economically

01:34:04.220 that is not something

01:34:05.480 that lends itself

01:34:07.500 to political intervention.

01:34:10.320 This is something culturally going on

01:34:12.120 among black Americans.

01:34:13.320 And you see the legacy

01:34:14.400 of single-parent families.

01:34:16.980 And again, that's another point

01:34:19.060 that I get into in the book.

01:34:20.160 Well, you touched on another point,

01:34:24.120 which is very dicey.

01:34:26.080 It's full of plutonium, this point.

01:34:28.660 But you write,

01:34:29.640 if black youth in more recent decades

01:34:31.540 have adopted an oppositional mindset,

01:34:34.100 it has been with the approval

01:34:35.100 of many intellectual elites

01:34:36.940 who excuse and justify behavior

01:34:39.080 that previous generations

01:34:40.860 once discouraged and condemned.

01:34:44.180 So can you speak to

01:34:45.640 what it used to be like

01:34:47.060 versus I know what you're saying now.

01:34:48.920 It's like these white leftist elites

01:34:51.380 who will bend over backwards

01:34:52.440 to be like,

01:34:53.180 don't punish the black students.

01:34:54.940 No black students can get suspended.

01:34:56.920 Stop saying two plus two equals four

01:34:58.720 just because it does.

01:35:00.300 You know, if a black student

01:35:01.120 says it's five, it's five.

01:35:02.340 That's your white supremacy speaking.

01:35:04.620 But what was it like before?

01:35:07.500 Well, what you saw

01:35:08.760 was an attempt to,

01:35:10.640 for blacks,

01:35:11.980 and this again is what you saw

01:35:14.120 in the first half,

01:35:15.480 first two thirds of the 20th century.

01:35:17.140 What you saw was an attempt

01:35:18.900 among blacks to assimilate

01:35:20.380 to middle class values.

01:35:23.300 And this was the focus

01:35:24.860 of the black leadership.

01:35:27.260 Behave yourself.

01:35:29.540 You know, pull up your pants,

01:35:30.840 finish school,

01:35:31.860 take care of your children.

01:35:33.340 These were priorities.

01:35:34.560 How you present yourself matters.

01:35:37.820 And that was the belief

01:35:39.020 of the black leadership.

01:35:40.640 Martin Luther King believed that.

01:35:42.180 Thurgood Marshall believed that.

01:35:44.080 How you present yourself to whites,

01:35:45.580 yes, there's racism.

01:35:47.200 Yes, we have to fight

01:35:48.520 for equal rights.

01:35:49.580 But there are also things

01:35:50.720 that we have to be responsible

01:35:52.020 to for ourselves.

01:35:54.240 The things we can't continue

01:35:55.340 blaming whites for indefinitely.

01:35:58.140 And they were very specific

01:35:59.500 about that.

01:36:00.020 It was very common

01:36:01.020 among the black leadership.

01:36:02.440 You just don't hear

01:36:03.540 that sort of talk today.

01:36:05.780 It's derided as respectability politics.

01:36:09.400 And people say,

01:36:10.340 well, it didn't work.

01:36:11.580 And because there's still

01:36:13.020 racial disparities

01:36:14.300 in this country.

01:36:15.240 And my point is that

01:36:16.340 it didn't not work

01:36:18.400 because of the track record

01:36:20.320 of advance that I just laid out

01:36:22.620 when it came to incomes

01:36:23.560 and educational attainment.

01:36:24.920 Oh, yes, it was working quite well.

01:36:27.060 We just stopped practicing it.

01:36:29.140 And that is the problem.

01:36:30.100 It's not that it doesn't work.

01:36:31.580 It's that we stopped practicing.

01:36:32.940 And by the way,

01:36:33.420 it was extremely successful.

01:36:35.420 It was the type of mindset

01:36:36.380 that produced

01:36:37.260 Brown versus Board of Education.

01:36:39.160 And it's produced

01:36:40.820 the Civil Rights Act of 1964,

01:36:43.040 the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

01:36:45.540 That generation of black leadership

01:36:46.940 had solid, solid accomplishments.

01:36:50.040 And they were very much focused

01:36:51.420 on respectability politics

01:36:53.220 and the behavior of black people.

01:36:56.540 I want to ask you

01:36:58.100 about what's happening

01:36:59.160 with the Met Gala tonight

01:37:00.380 because we started the show

01:37:01.960 by talking about how

01:37:03.560 it's like about

01:37:05.080 the black diaspora.

01:37:07.160 And these two white people,

01:37:10.460 Anna Wintour and her chief

01:37:11.640 costume designer,

01:37:12.800 a white man,

01:37:13.940 have decided to make

01:37:14.820 tonight's Met Gala

01:37:15.680 all about black designers,

01:37:17.100 even though very few black designers

01:37:19.080 are really at the top

01:37:19.900 of the fashion world.

01:37:20.700 But this is her trying to look like

01:37:21.960 she's a woman who's relatable

01:37:23.900 and she cares about

01:37:25.200 the black community.

01:37:25.960 But meanwhile,

01:37:26.460 it's not going to happen at Vogue,

01:37:27.760 but she's going to feature them

01:37:28.640 at the Met Gala.

01:37:30.100 And so one of the people who,

01:37:33.160 they had to bring on

01:37:33.820 like a black committee

01:37:34.620 that they pointed out

01:37:35.840 in the New York Times

01:37:36.340 has been meeting

01:37:36.880 at the Apollo Theater, Jason.

01:37:38.300 So they're legit.

01:37:39.320 They're at the Apollo Theater

01:37:40.320 with their meetings

01:37:40.880 to say like what the theme should be

01:37:42.940 and who should be invited.

01:37:44.660 And there's a quote from one saying,

01:37:47.440 you know,

01:37:47.600 we really want to make sure

01:37:48.440 that people continue

01:37:49.380 to perpetuate our vision

01:37:53.040 of black dandyism.

01:37:54.560 That's the idea of like this

01:37:56.480 sort of colorful dress

01:37:58.140 that was favored by some,

01:38:00.220 but not,

01:38:01.120 she does not want to see

01:38:02.540 a full length do rag.

01:38:04.460 That's a quote,

01:38:05.920 a full length do rag by anybody

01:38:07.700 or quote,

01:38:08.680 quote,

01:38:09.000 a pimp cane.

01:38:10.280 Now,

01:38:10.880 this to me is so ironic

01:38:12.520 is this is a black person

01:38:14.180 saying this about

01:38:15.440 what she doesn't want to see

01:38:16.400 from black people

01:38:17.000 showing up to celebrate

01:38:17.940 black culture.

01:38:19.720 Meanwhile,

01:38:20.840 you,

01:38:21.220 you make a pretty strong case

01:38:22.600 that it is the left

01:38:23.640 that set a portion

01:38:25.560 of the black community

01:38:26.360 down the lane

01:38:27.400 of prizing the black,

01:38:29.060 whatever,

01:38:29.940 do rag,

01:38:30.800 the pimp cane,

01:38:31.620 and so on

01:38:32.560 as opposed to

01:38:33.480 folding into the middle class

01:38:35.140 and there being

01:38:35.720 almost no distinction

01:38:36.800 between them

01:38:37.780 and their white counterparts.

01:38:40.080 Yeah,

01:38:40.620 and I think

01:38:41.280 where I see this

01:38:42.740 most prominently

01:38:44.400 is in the sort of

01:38:45.360 hip hop culture

01:38:46.500 where you have people,

01:38:48.700 you know,

01:38:49.220 the guy sitting in prison now,

01:38:51.640 Sean Combs,

01:38:52.960 you know,

01:38:53.260 made a living

01:38:54.060 trafficking

01:38:55.220 and the worst

01:38:56.660 is stereotypes

01:38:57.560 about black people.

01:38:59.800 Materialism,

01:39:01.060 drugs,

01:39:02.460 violence,

01:39:03.840 misogyny,

01:39:05.360 people,

01:39:05.780 Jay-Z,

01:39:07.060 you know,

01:39:07.540 Snoop,

01:39:08.240 all these guys,

01:39:09.780 Dr. Dre,

01:39:10.860 and they were just

01:39:12.060 elevated by our

01:39:13.220 cultural elites.

01:39:15.320 That's all they did

01:39:16.200 was traffic

01:39:16.900 in negative stereotypes

01:39:18.520 about black people

01:39:19.860 and became

01:39:21.160 multi-millionaires

01:39:22.340 in the process.

01:39:23.480 and putting out

01:39:25.980 products,

01:39:26.680 gutter lyrics

01:39:27.440 that most

01:39:28.440 decent black people,

01:39:29.720 most black people,

01:39:30.760 in fact,

01:39:31.460 want to shield

01:39:32.100 their kids from.

01:39:34.080 My parents

01:39:35.020 didn't want me listening.

01:39:36.160 In fact,

01:39:36.620 if I got caught

01:39:37.680 listening to stuff

01:39:38.600 like that,

01:39:39.060 I'd get in trouble.

01:39:40.520 And that was

01:39:41.140 very typical

01:39:41.900 of a lot.

01:39:42.980 But there are a lot

01:39:43.480 of white elites

01:39:44.160 that celebrated it.

01:39:45.520 Oh,

01:39:46.100 this is just,

01:39:47.160 they're authentic

01:39:48.240 black people.

01:39:49.600 The black kids

01:39:50.480 that are raising

01:39:51.340 their hand in class,

01:39:52.640 that are studying,

01:39:53.300 that are studious,

01:39:54.400 that speak standard

01:39:55.320 English,

01:39:56.040 oh,

01:39:56.220 they're acting white.

01:39:57.220 They're not authentic.

01:39:59.460 You know,

01:39:59.740 Snoop is authentic.

01:40:01.720 He's keeping it real.

01:40:03.200 And you hear this,

01:40:04.280 you hear this

01:40:04.880 even today

01:40:05.860 coming up.

01:40:06.780 The types

01:40:07.340 of black people

01:40:08.280 that the left

01:40:09.400 wants to celebrate

01:40:10.400 and elevate

01:40:11.260 are those types.

01:40:13.900 And they put them

01:40:15.060 out there

01:40:15.580 as standard bearers

01:40:17.940 for black.

01:40:18.880 I'll take you

01:40:19.680 the most obvious example,

01:40:20.680 George Floyd.

01:40:21.280 George Floyd

01:40:22.600 was presented

01:40:23.260 as your typical

01:40:24.980 black person

01:40:26.280 in America.

01:40:27.380 What they go

01:40:28.000 through every day.

01:40:29.500 George Floyd.

01:40:30.360 George Floyd,

01:40:31.260 Megan,

01:40:31.980 was high on drugs,

01:40:34.240 a lifelong criminal

01:40:35.800 who died

01:40:36.900 resisting arrest.

01:40:38.380 He is not

01:40:39.200 your typical

01:40:39.920 black person

01:40:40.880 in America.

01:40:41.620 No,

01:40:41.780 it's such an insult.

01:40:42.980 And yet,

01:40:43.320 we are putting up

01:40:44.100 statues of George Floyd

01:40:46.220 and taking down

01:40:47.100 statues of Abraham Lincoln.

01:40:49.560 It's crazy.

01:40:50.880 It's absolutely crazy.

01:40:52.740 So,

01:40:53.520 on the affirmative

01:40:54.160 action front,

01:40:55.080 are we expecting

01:40:56.420 these colleges

01:40:57.080 to comply?

01:40:58.280 Because I remember

01:40:58.880 right after the ruling,

01:41:00.260 I think it was Cornell,

01:41:01.520 if memory serves,

01:41:02.280 and you went to,

01:41:03.440 I think you went to

01:41:03.980 college in Buffalo

01:41:04.520 and I'm from Syracuse.

01:41:05.380 We had that discussion.

01:41:06.420 So,

01:41:06.800 not too far from

01:41:07.620 our neck of the woods.

01:41:09.140 Switched over to,

01:41:10.780 okay,

01:41:11.280 we won't ask

01:41:11.980 what your race is

01:41:13.040 on your application,

01:41:14.240 but we will ask

01:41:15.440 for your essay

01:41:16.800 to get into college

01:41:17.560 should be submitted

01:41:18.200 via video.

01:41:19.860 You read it.

01:41:24.060 No,

01:41:24.720 you're right.

01:41:25.640 That's what they're

01:41:26.040 going to do.

01:41:26.500 No,

01:41:26.660 they're not going to comply.

01:41:27.480 They're not going to comply

01:41:28.220 willingly.

01:41:28.980 And that's why

01:41:29.680 I'm glad

01:41:30.980 that the person

01:41:32.460 who,

01:41:33.140 Edward Bloom,

01:41:33.960 the head of Students

01:41:34.540 for Fair Admission,

01:41:35.320 who's won that Harvard

01:41:36.140 lawsuit,

01:41:36.960 is staying on the case.

01:41:38.000 He's going to continue

01:41:38.780 to follow up

01:41:39.560 with threats

01:41:41.320 to sue again

01:41:42.120 if he finds

01:41:43.000 them trying to evade

01:41:44.260 what the Supreme Court

01:41:45.640 ruled.

01:41:46.020 And I think

01:41:46.480 that is very,

01:41:47.240 very necessary.

01:41:48.280 These schools

01:41:48.740 are very committed

01:41:49.540 to this diversity,

01:41:51.140 equity,

01:41:51.380 and inclusion.

01:41:52.480 And I think

01:41:53.200 they are going

01:41:53.660 to try and stay

01:41:54.340 the course

01:41:54.860 and wait out

01:41:55.620 the Trump administration's

01:41:56.700 pushback.

01:41:57.320 So,

01:41:57.900 no,

01:41:58.440 I don't think

01:41:59.100 this is over

01:41:59.680 at all.

01:42:00.620 I think

01:42:01.160 they have

01:42:01.620 their work cut out.

01:42:03.100 Well,

01:42:03.440 I certainly hope

01:42:04.960 they stay on the case

01:42:05.780 because it's so pernicious

01:42:06.980 and you've been

01:42:07.780 one of the greatest

01:42:08.580 truth tellers

01:42:09.440 on it all.

01:42:10.740 By the Affirmative

01:42:11.920 Action Myth

01:42:12.900 by Jason Reilly,

01:42:14.020 it's out tomorrow.

01:42:14.720 The Affirmative Action Myth.

01:42:16.240 You will not be sorry

01:42:17.040 you did.

01:42:17.980 He speaks

01:42:18.460 these very complex issues.

01:42:20.900 He boils them down

01:42:21.680 into very digestible bits.

01:42:23.220 That's one of the things

01:42:23.740 I love about Jason.

01:42:24.860 He puts sophisticated

01:42:26.480 economic concepts

01:42:27.600 in ways that

01:42:28.760 even I could argue them,

01:42:30.400 which I appreciate.

01:42:31.900 And look,

01:42:32.820 this is a battle

01:42:33.400 that's going to be ongoing,

01:42:34.200 especially because of Trump

01:42:34.820 and his DEI efforts.

01:42:35.940 Great to see you again,

01:42:36.740 Jason.

01:42:37.480 Thank you, Megan.

01:42:38.180 The Affirmative Action Myth.

01:42:40.620 That's exactly what it is.

01:42:41.520 Out tomorrow.

01:42:44.160 Thanks for listening

01:42:44.980 to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:42:46.060 No BS,

01:42:47.200 no agenda,

01:42:48.040 and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 05, 2025

Met Gala Goes Racial, Media's False Trump NBC Narrative, and Affirmative Action Myth, with Andrew Klavan and Jason Riley ｜ Ep. 1064

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