The Megyn Kelly Show - Murdaugh's Deception, and Idaho Murders Suspect's Past, with Phil Houston, Bill Stanton, Mike Swain, and Anne Bremner ｜ Ep. 485

00:00:00.500 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.700 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today on the program,

00:00:16.060 one of the most fascinating people I have ever spoken to in this business. You hear me mention

00:00:22.840 his name all the time, and for very good reason. His name is Phil Houston. He's author of the book

00:00:28.780 Spy the Lie, which by the way, you should totally buy. It's available still in New York Times

00:00:33.340 bestseller, and for very good reason there too. Phil spent 25 years in the CIA conducting

00:00:38.780 interrogations around the world. Half the time, he was figuring out whether somebody was a terrorist,

00:00:44.100 and the other half, he was here domestically trying to figure out whether one of our agents

00:00:47.880 had been turned. I mean, this is literally a human lie detector. That's what he is. And he can tell

00:00:54.940 you the signs to look for if you're trying to see if someone is lying. This is a special man

00:01:01.120 and a special guest. Trust me. Today, Phil and his team are going to take a look at key moments

00:01:07.060 in the trial of Alex Murdoch in South Carolina and the case against Brian Kohlberger, the suspected

00:01:13.300 killer of four college students in Idaho. You're going to love this. When Phil listens to Alex

00:01:19.400 Murdoch's 911 call, made after he says he found, he stumbled upon the bodies of his wife and son,

00:01:25.880 does Phil detect deception? And what about Brian Kohlberger's first traffic stop when he was

00:01:32.580 traversing from Washington State back home to Pennsylvania, got pulled over? He's got thoughts.

00:01:38.580 But we begin with dramatic moments in the Murdoch trial. A police investigator on the stand

00:01:44.140 insisting that Alex Murdoch admitted to him on tape that Murdoch killed his son. This is brand

00:01:51.880 new information. Ann Bremner is a trial attorney and author of the book Justice in the Age of Judgment

00:01:57.420 from Amanda Knox to Kyle Rittenhouse and the Battle for Due Process in the Digital Age. Ann has been

00:02:03.080 watching this trial very closely and she joins me now. Ann, great to have you here. Oh, it's such a

00:02:08.780 pleasure and honor. Thanks, Megan. Oh, no. Thank you to you. So this is the big, this is news that

00:02:15.200 they are claiming they have an admission from the defendant on trial for double murder that he did

00:02:22.240 it. Set it up and then I'll play the soundbite. Basically, he's on tape with an investigator and

00:02:27.260 it was played in court. It was played slowly in court. And the question is, of course, for the jury is

00:02:33.020 whether or not he said I did him bad or they did him bad. The investigator is 100 percent certain,

00:02:39.220 of course, that it was I did them bad and it was a confession. OK, so we have the moment here. First

00:02:45.560 is the South Carolina law enforcement agent Jeff Croft testifying as to what he heard when he

00:02:53.600 interviewed Alex Murdoch. Listen. Sitting there talking today is tough. It's just so bad. They did

00:03:01.020 it so bad. When you asked the defendant about the traumatic picture that he saw of Paul and Maggie,

00:03:09.240 what did he say? It's just so bad. I did him so bad. I did him so bad. Yes, sir.

00:03:15.040 But did he say I did him so bad or did he say they did him so bad? We've we've now got solo tape that

00:03:24.340 we're going to play for you of Murdoch and we've we've put it over and over so the audience can hear

00:03:29.500 it a little bit more clearly and make up their own minds about whether he said I did him so bad or they

00:03:33.460 did him so bad. Here it is. I can't tell. And I don't know. I can't either. I can't either. And I,

00:03:49.040 you know, when I listen to it slow down in the courtroom and and when you played it like that,

00:03:53.260 I thought I'm going to catch it. But sometimes I heard I did it so bad and then a little bit I

00:03:56.980 heard they did it so bad. Yeah. Let's hope the prosecution has more than this, because this is

00:04:01.740 not going to be enough for a jury to convict somebody beyond a reasonable doubt. No. And the

00:04:07.200 other thing is, I mean, he's a lawyer. So why is he going to confess a and be that you don't have

00:04:12.540 a note of this or a follow up question from the investigator confirming that's what he said. So

00:04:17.720 they don't want to make this a centerpiece because it's just too shaky, at least in my opinion.

00:04:22.360 Yeah. So that was he got cross examined, Agent Croft, aggressively by defense counsel saying,

00:04:29.120 so this is a big moment. Right. So surely you took a note and wrote it down. Right.

00:04:34.460 No, he wrote it nowhere. And like that doesn't make any sense at all. Then he hammered him on

00:04:40.920 the fact that he didn't follow up with Murdoch right then and there. Like, what did you just say?

00:04:45.580 I felt like what did you mean? Right. I felt like his explanation for that was a little bit better

00:04:50.720 than why he didn't take a note. Yeah, it was a little bit better. But the fact remains that

00:04:56.640 anytime you get a confession and, you know, you know, as a prosecutor, that's golden.

00:05:01.040 That's the best you can get besides just direct evidence. And if you don't make a note of it,

00:05:05.160 you don't follow up on it, you don't clarify it, you know, et cetera. And then you can come in front

00:05:09.560 of a jury and say, I'm 100 percent sure that's what he said. Well, we're not 100 percent sure.

00:05:13.580 Is the jury 100 percent sure? Defense lawyer clearly isn't. So why didn't he preserve that in a way in

00:05:20.520 writing, follow up, anything else to make sure that that could be the centerpiece of the case?

00:05:25.400 Because it isn't. What they're suggesting now is that he didn't follow up because he still wanted

00:05:29.540 to maintain the cooperation with Murdoch. He didn't want him closing down, you know, sort of

00:05:33.820 officially declaring him. Wait, what? You're the murderer? Like that would have caused a rift.

00:05:38.700 Right. Like that would have caused a rift. I mean, I guess I can kind of see that. I can see.

00:05:43.860 I don't know. You know how it is. Even as a lawyer, you're in a deposition and somebody gives you an

00:05:47.520 admission. Sometimes you don't want to touch it. Sometimes you just want it to stand and you move on.

00:05:51.620 Yeah, all the time and all the time. And of course, you have to resist the temptation to go. So

00:05:57.600 you're confessing, you know, to connect the dots, you leave that for closing, you leave that for

00:06:01.680 later in the case. So I get that. And I think that's smart. You've got a conniving lawyer as

00:06:07.140 a potential suspect who just gave you something that you don't want to wreck. You know, you don't

00:06:10.940 want to disturb what you have. But you definitely go back and make a note of it and call people's

00:06:17.960 attention to it. And then he didn't hear it. Almost seems like somebody else later heard the

00:06:22.800 tape and said, yo, I know that's, you know, and he was like, oh, sure. Yes, I definitely heard that

00:06:27.600 100 percent. Me, too. I know. It reminds me of when I was a prosecutor, you get these cops and say,

00:06:32.680 you know, I almost got him to confess, you know, that that's the big thing. You know, I'm the one

00:06:36.100 that did it. And all of a sudden he's like, oh, I guess I did. People said that. Yeah, it was a

00:06:40.680 confession. You're right. And him being 100 percent sure that he heard it undermines his

00:06:45.840 credibility because we're all hearing the exact moment. It's not like we have to rely on his

00:06:51.280 memory. We're hearing it and no one is sure. And in fact, some of the in court reporters are saying

00:06:55.880 when they slowed it down, they clearly heard they they did him so bad. So I wonder whether this this

00:07:02.240 testimony has been more undermining than helpful to the prosecution.

00:07:06.400 I do, too. And I saw some posts, I think, from Blonde Crime and other places, you know,

00:07:11.580 folks that post on these things saying they couldn't tell, you know, either, like you just

00:07:15.360 said. And so when you have a really strong case, which I think they do, especially with

00:07:19.940 the Snapchat video, you know, putting him there at the scene that we're just hearing about,

00:07:23.420 why do you take something weak like that and put it with the privacy recency in the beginning

00:07:27.500 of your case? Maybe put that on later. So it's just a piece of the puzzle they talked about

00:07:31.220 opening that all you'll see a picture come together when you assemble all these pieces.

00:07:36.400 This is just a piece. It's not the centerpiece.

00:07:39.700 There's not like a clear motive. I mean, we've we can cobble one together, certainly that Alex

00:07:44.780 Murdoch was accused of civil fraud at his law firm. His finances were falling apart. He was being

00:07:50.760 exposed as a financial criminal. And his son, Paul, had been driving the boat when this a couple

00:07:56.080 years earlier when this drunk, when this 19 year old girl, Mallory, was killed and brought a lot

00:08:01.900 of disrepute into the family. And so the theory is that he did this to distract from his own troubles

00:08:08.500 and make himself look like a look like a victim. I have to say, like, I believe it. Don't get me

00:08:13.920 wrong. I believe he did this. But I do find that motive to be like kind of weird.

00:08:18.200 Right. The old attention getting sympathy, getting motive. You know, I think I agree,

00:08:24.180 Megan. And I and I think really the prosecution talked about this gathering storm in his life,

00:08:28.880 you know, with being found out with his finances in the Mallory Beach death case. And then with the

00:08:32.980 housekeeper that on the insurance fraud, she dies. He gets the family to get involved, you know,

00:08:37.500 in terms of collecting money. And then, of course, he steals it and he steals from the firm. But the thing

00:08:41.960 is, everything was really coming to you. Oh, and he has to get someone to try and kill him, 0.99

00:08:45.560 you know, to get the 10 million dollar life insurance to his son, Buster. Maybe. But

00:08:49.120 everything's, yeah, maybe everything's falling apart for him. But I think you may be some a

00:08:54.540 psychiatrist child. My brother's a psychiatrist, too. Don't you think that the people that he loved

00:08:59.800 the most, the ones he sees a reflection of his perfect self in their eyes, you know, his children,

00:09:05.500 his wife, when he loses that, that's what's coming. Everything's unraveling. Everything. He has

00:09:13.120 nothing. He's going to be without money. He's being disbarred. You know, he's going to have

00:09:17.820 all these kinds of problems for his life of crimes. But that's interesting. Yeah. Now,

00:09:23.540 that's just a theory I've had because I agree with you. Oh, sympathy. You want to kill two people to

00:09:27.520 get sympathy? You know, I don't think so. But the fact is, something was happening with him. And he's 0.99

00:09:32.620 a one man crime wave anyway. I mean, he's a serial killer, if you believe about all these other

00:09:36.920 cases. But maybe the ultimate thing is, it was all about his narcissistic self that he just

00:09:41.580 couldn't see himself anymore the way they would see him. Oh, my God. It's like no murder is non

00:09:48.420 brutal. But these were particularly ugly. The other prosecution introduced is the last text messages

00:09:56.600 before Paul, the son's phone went silent is Alex Murdoch's story is that he wasn't at it was this

00:10:05.260 big property where they had kennels and they shot guns. Right. And he says, I wasn't there. I was

00:10:10.820 overseeing my mom not too far away who's got Alzheimer's. And then I came back and I stumbled

00:10:16.380 upon my poor wife and son who had just been brutally shot. And I called 9-1-1. That's it.

00:10:22.140 So there's been a lot of testimony about cell phones. Paul, the son's cell phone was found on

00:10:28.600 top of his body. And they this is what they put into evidence, the prosecution. This is from the South

00:10:36.380 Carolina Post and Courier that Murdoch had been Paul Murdoch had been calling and texting his friend

00:10:41.980 on the evening of the murder, June 7, 2021, when suddenly he stopped responding. Paul and his

00:10:47.080 friend Rogan Gibson had been discussing Gibson's puppy who was staying at the dog kennels on the

00:10:52.460 Murdoch property. Gibson sent a text at 849 p.m. The cops think the murder happened at 850

00:10:57.160 or thereabouts. Sent a text at 849 asking Paul to photograph the dog's injured tail.

00:11:02.480 They had talked on the phone five minutes earlier, but Paul did not answer this text.

00:11:07.340 Gibson tried to call him at 910, again at 929, 942, 957. Texted him, yo, after that, he did not

00:11:15.580 respond. Then this Gibson called one more time at 1008 and then even texted the mother, Maggie,

00:11:21.020 asking her to have Paul call him. Nothing. Nobody responded. Then they say Maggie and Paul's phones

00:11:28.560 had already been locked for the final time, both at 849 p.m. They can tell if they used it again after

00:11:36.540 that. The interesting thing about this, according to the testimony, was they showed, I'm trying to get

00:11:46.520 my exact back, but they basically showed that Maggie's phone went back into portrait mode at what they say

00:11:54.440 would have been after the murders. Because they can tell. They can tell how you raise your phone

00:12:01.120 and the picture comes on. They can tell that that happened after the murders. And within seconds,

00:12:08.660 Alex Murdoch called Maggie's phone. And their theory is he picked up her phone. He saw that it was

00:12:14.580 locked. And then he called it immediately from the murder scene, trying to make it look like he was

00:12:19.800 trying to reach her from someplace else. But he was standing over his wife's dead body at the time.

00:12:25.980 So incredibly eerie, Anne. I know. It's just unbelievable. How could there be so much evil

00:12:31.780 in one person to be so brutal and then to do that, to stand over her body and then to act like he's

00:12:37.480 calling her while she's alive? Unbelievably chilling and evil. The other thing is they say

00:12:45.800 they're going to introduce prosecution, a Snapchat video. Now, this could be really important,

00:12:51.260 right? This Snapchat video. We haven't seen it yet, but they say they're going to be able to place

00:12:55.960 Alex Murdoch at by or by the kennels where he says he wasn't and where the murders took place like

00:13:03.580 moments before the murders. Right. So do we know what this Snapchat video is going to have on it? Have

00:13:11.080 they said? No, I don't. I was listening this morning, watching the trial. I know there was

00:13:15.800 some reference to him talking about a dog having a chicken in their mouth. I mean, just kind of just

00:13:19.380 casual conversation. But the fact is, his voice is heard allegedly on that Snapchat video.

00:13:24.900 And he's there with Paul and Maggie at the time of the murders. And this was about the dog puppy's

00:13:32.120 tail. Remember that his friend wanted to picture the puppy's tail to show to the vet. And so that's what

00:13:37.100 the purpose of this was. But it's like that Latin phrase, you know, falsus in unum, falsus in plurium

00:13:43.360 or falsus in omnibus, false in one, false in all. He lied. He said he wasn't there. But the jury's

00:13:49.920 going to see the Snapchat video showing he was indeed there. Well, I don't know if he's shown on the

00:13:56.760 video, right? I don't think so. He is said to be heard talking with Maggie and Paul about a dog

00:14:03.460 and that it was, according to Murdoch's attorneys, it was a convivial conversation.

00:14:11.600 I'm glad you I'm glad you pronounced that because I was trying to pronounce it.

00:14:15.840 Hardly the kind of talk you would expect to precede a pair of violent murders. But that's not the

00:14:22.420 issue. The issue is Murdoch says he wasn't there. Murdoch places himself over with the mother with

00:14:26.620 the Alzheimer's, not in the kennel, talking to his son. And this Snapchat video, they're going to have a

00:14:32.200 timestamp on it. They're going to know exactly when it was taken. But it's supposedly right before

00:14:36.140 they were murdered. Yeah, there is a smoking gun in this case. And this is it, I think. And the

00:14:42.120 defense is doing a really good job of saying he's innocent. Why would he do this? You know,

00:14:45.660 everything else, if there's no direct evidence. Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. What's this?

00:14:50.960 You know, we'll have to see what it says and what we hear. But from the light descriptions of it so far,

00:14:56.780 this is going to be devastating to the defense. If this is what they say it is. Yeah, they're

00:15:02.200 going. The prosecution is going to bring in a Snapchat rep so that they can get it into evidence

00:15:06.440 and validate it, authenticate it. And if they do that, and if the timing is close enough to 850,

00:15:12.020 that really could be a smoking gun against. Oh, my gosh. And we will continue to watch it. Thank

00:15:17.800 you so much for coming on with your thoughts. See you soon. That's your pleasure. See you. Thank you.

00:15:21.780 All right. When we come back, we stick with the Murdoch case. And Phil Houston will analyze the

00:15:28.300 Alex Murdoch interrogation tapes. Wait until you hear what he has to say.

00:15:39.180 Joining me now, Phil Houston. Phil worked for the CIA for 25 years. He's the author of Spy the Lie

00:15:48.380 and Get the Truth. Phil, it's so great to have you here. Thanks so much for coming on.

00:15:54.280 Thank you, Megan. Appreciate the opportunity to come on again. It's good to see you.

00:15:57.920 Oh, you as well. So our audience should know you invented the deception detection method still being

00:16:06.100 used to this day at the CIA and adopted by other intelligence agencies as well. You,

00:16:12.300 I think it is fair to say, are a human lie detector. Thanks, Megan. Appreciate it. Yes,

00:16:18.460 I was the principal developer of the detection of deception model, and we still use it every day.

00:16:25.480 It's amazing. So our team, back when I was hosting the Kelly File, took your deception detection class.

00:16:31.780 It was sort of the quickie version. And we learned a few things about the way it works. And I'm just

00:16:36.840 going to set it up a little bit before we have you analyze some of these tapes so people understand

00:16:41.220 a little bit about what you do. What we learned was there are certain sort of buckets that you

00:16:47.500 look for to figure out whether somebody's lying. But if they just check a box in one bucket,

00:16:51.960 it's not really cause for concern necessarily. But if they have multiple things checked in different

00:16:59.080 buckets, then you have what's called a cluster. And now you're in deception territory. And it was

00:17:04.540 so funny, Phil, because to this day, Debbie Murphy is my producer and she was then as well.

00:17:09.840 And she'll get my ear while we're watching a guest and she'll say, cluster. We're still trying to

00:17:16.780 figure it out based on your techniques. So explain to us a little bit about the buckets that you use

00:17:22.020 to figure out whether someone's lying. Sure. There's basically five buckets, Megan. And what we did was

00:17:29.560 is take all of the reliable indicators of deception and figure out what's causing them from a psychological

00:17:38.220 standpoint. And that's where the buckets came from. That's each of the behaviors fit in one of those

00:17:43.980 five buckets. The first of those buckets is evasion. And evasion is simply when people are doing things

00:17:51.640 to hide the information actively. They're not answering your questions. They're failing to deny

00:17:57.920 something of that, like that. The second bucket is the persuasion bucket. So if I've committed an act

00:18:07.860 of wrongdoing and you ask me if I did it, that really puts me on the spot because I can't really

00:18:14.120 answer the question otherwise, because there are consequences associated with telling the truth.

00:18:19.280 And so instead, what I do is go into what we call the convince mode. We refer to it as the convince

00:18:27.520 versus convey dilemma. I can't convey what the truth is, so I have to convince. And there are things like,

00:18:36.180 I would never do that. I'm not that kind of person. And there's a million different examples.

00:18:42.300 The third bucket is aggression. Sometimes when people feel cornered and or run out of convincing

00:18:50.780 ideas or strategy, then they will become aggressive. They will start attacking either the questioner

00:18:58.800 or the victim or the process, you know, the legal process or the investigative process, whatever the

00:19:06.160 case may be. The fourth bucket is what we call the reaction bucket. These are things where people react

00:19:16.680 non-verbally. So for example, and I'm going to mention one of these in one of the videos here with

00:19:25.940 Murdoch. He, at one key point when he's asked a question, he starts to do a very significant anchor

00:19:34.340 point shift. It clearly represents a spike in his anxiety. And it tells us he's concerned about

00:19:41.140 what he's saying. And then the fifth bucket is manipulation. There are things that people do or

00:19:48.440 say to manipulate you during the course of the questioning or the conversation. And these things

00:19:58.100 are designed to make the process work more for them than for you. For example, if you ask them a

00:20:06.380 question and they feel the need to buy time, they may repeat your question. And while you're repeating,

00:20:13.580 they're repeating your question, they're really thinking about what am I going to say? It just buys

00:20:18.900 them a moment or two. But that moment or two is a lot when you think about the cognitive process.

00:20:26.140 People tend to think about 10 times faster than they're talking. So if it takes two seconds,

00:20:31.940 for example, to repeat the question, that can give them maybe 20 minutes of, or excuse me,

00:20:38.660 20 seconds of thinking or strategy basically to come up with. So those are the five buckets.

00:20:47.420 One of the ones I remember, and I think this would be in reaction, but correct me if I'm not right about

00:20:52.140 that, is certain body movements. So I remember hands above the midline, hands above the midline,

00:20:57.940 touching your nose, touching your ears, touching your hair, like touching yourself is because it's

00:21:03.600 nerves, right? It's basically like electricity shooting out of your fingers.

00:21:07.840 Yep. It's often a part of what the, you know, psychologists refer to as the fight or flight,

00:21:15.180 or actually there's a third piece to it, which is a freeze. Sometimes instead of creating physical

00:21:21.080 activity, it actually creates a frozen person in front of you momentarily as they're there,

00:21:27.280 have the deer in the headlights look and they're thinking, oh my God, what do I do now? Or what do I,

00:21:32.020 what do I, what do I, what do I take this? What do I say?

00:21:34.700 Yeah. It's, but again, it doesn't necessarily count against them unless it's part of a cluster.

00:21:39.020 So don't start thinking your spouse is lying to you just because he touches his nose

00:21:42.380 in the middle. Maybe he has an itchy nose. So you got to look for the cluster for this to become

00:21:46.580 meaningful. And we're going to have you on for a full feature, Phil, because you're so

00:21:50.580 interesting. I want to get much more in depth with you, but just quickly before we do the

00:21:54.680 specifics, could you put a little bit more meat on the bones of how I described your career, half

00:22:00.440 figuring out, you know, whether somebody is a terrorist, half figuring out whether one of our

00:22:04.740 CIA guys had turned for another country. I mean, what, what really difficult challenges you had?

00:22:11.000 So could just describe a little bit about that, that life for us?

00:22:13.940 Sure. About half of my career was spent, you know, back home in the U.S. and in, in,

00:22:21.240 investigative and I was a polygraph examiner for many, many years, positions of that nature,

00:22:29.600 screening, what we refer to often as screening work. The other part, significant part of my

00:22:34.980 career was spent overseas involved in the vetting process of, of intelligent sources.

00:22:41.540 And, and those sources, you know, sometimes they're recruited sources, sometimes they're

00:22:49.000 voluntary sources. People will walk into an embassy or an American consulate and say,

00:22:56.980 hey, I've got significant information. So, you know, something's going to blow up. Something is,

00:23:03.200 so-and-so is going to be assassinated. Could be any number of things. And when the stakes are high

00:23:08.540 enough, then somebody has got to go, you know, talk to that individual and sort it out. Are they

00:23:13.300 telling the truth or not? And if they're not, that's where the interrogation piece comes in

00:23:17.940 to get them to open up and tell us that they're, they're, they fabricated this piece of information.

00:23:25.880 Has anyone ever fooled you?

00:23:28.020 Pardon me?

00:23:29.240 Has anyone ever fooled you?

00:23:30.420 The hard part about that is, is that because of the serious nature of the issues, if they fool us,

00:23:38.380 they don't usually come back and, and, you know, we are, unless we're lucky enough to catch them

00:23:42.180 later. And so, you know, there are people I, to this day, I still worry about, you know what I mean?

00:23:48.340 I wonder, you know, how much, you know, did they get, get one over on me? Where we do tend to miss

00:23:54.340 things in our world or get fooled, Megan, is when we're dealing in, for example, like a screening

00:24:00.540 issue, say that we're, we're, we're doing a pre-employment interview and you're looking at a

00:24:06.960 whole bunch of issues that you're interested in. The problem is, is that individual could be lying

00:24:13.080 to more than one of those issues. However, they have a disproportionate amount of concern

00:24:19.060 to let's say, you know, the, the biggest issue. And as a result, their fear of, of detection isn't

00:24:26.780 as significant as, uh, you know, on the other issues as it is on this one, this one that they're

00:24:33.940 most afraid of. And so sometimes you, the, the behaviors don't, you know, uh, show up on, on issues

00:24:42.460 where they're actually lying to, you know, to you. Oh my gosh, this, I've got to ask you about

00:24:47.940 this, the, uh, Supreme court leaker, Phil, I've been saying on the show virtually every day since

00:24:54.060 the Supreme court opinion was leaked in Dobbs, they need a real investigation. They need Phil

00:24:59.180 Houston. You tell me if they, if, if old Gail at the Supreme court, the Supreme court marshal said,

00:25:05.140 Phil, would you come in and conduct this investigation? I have to figure out who the

00:25:08.340 liar is because somebody in this building, we have very good reason to believe leaked this

00:25:12.260 opinion. First time in the U S Supreme court history. Um, do you think you could have done it?

00:25:17.940 Um, it's very hard to tell. I, I did a number of leaks investigations when I was, uh, in my former

00:25:26.060 life in the agency and leakers are hard to, to, uh, identify simply because there are so many people

00:25:34.920 that might have access to the information, um, and, uh, and, and who could have been leakers and you

00:25:42.680 get copycat leakers. There's an old saying in the, in the world of psychology that there, there are no

00:25:50.720 secrets. And what that means is, is that as human beings, if you tell me a secret, it's rare that

00:25:57.640 someone will, will have a hundred percent fidelity in terms of keeping that secret, a secret because

00:26:06.020 people have other people that they feel that they can confide in, in a secure manner. And it just

00:26:13.160 seems to be an inherent part of human nature. Um, I'm not saying that people never ever, you know,

00:26:20.160 have kept a secret, but it is, it is very difficult. And we, we found that because in, in our world,

00:26:26.700 keeping the secrets was at the top of the list. So how does that relate to the Supreme court leaker?

00:26:34.780 Well, first of all, you know, there's a lot of people in the building. Okay. So in, in essence,

00:26:41.360 it becomes like a Ponzi scheme all of a sudden, it's not a scheme, but so if you know something or,

00:26:48.780 and then you tell me, and then I tell the next person and they tell it, there's an exponential,

00:26:54.100 um, characteristic to it. And before you know it, there's 50 people that know what you hope for in

00:27:01.840 catching the leaker is that you, you have a chance to have that person in front of you,

00:27:09.900 meaning that you get a chance to ask them the question, were they a leaker? And I mentioned

00:27:15.320 that because in the Supreme court situation, I've heard a lot of people say, oh, it couldn't be one

00:27:21.400 of the justices. You know, they're a Supreme court justice. How on earth could they ever be a leaker?

00:27:28.420 In reality, in reality of human nature is, is that people lie when they think it's in their best

00:27:36.280 interest to do so. And you ask about, has anybody ever fooled you? Where people get fooled is when

00:27:43.020 their bias is so strong about something, they believe in someone so deeply that they're in

00:27:51.740 their mind, it's impossible for that person to have done it. And it's, it's rare in investigations

00:27:59.640 when I, you know, when I'm working, you know, with other investigators and so forth that I don't hear

00:28:05.100 like, no, he or she couldn't have done it. They're just not the type. They wouldn't do that. And in

00:28:11.100 reality, you know, we all lie to varying degrees in terms of quantity and, and as well as gravity.

00:28:20.460 It is, it is, you know, life wouldn't work if there wasn't some deception involved, even if it's

00:28:27.560 protective deception, you're not, you're, you're not telling someone something so that you can protect

00:28:32.180 their feelings. So it's not a great idea to have the Supreme court marshal, who's pretty low on the

00:28:37.860 totem pole at the Supreme court doing the interviews. I use that term in air quotes of

00:28:42.860 chief justice, John Roberts and all the other justices.

00:28:46.600 Yeah, I, I would not have done it. And it's, and it's actually, if you use someone independent,

00:28:51.980 I'm not suggesting myself, but, but if you use someone who's independent and you're actually doing

00:28:58.300 them a favor as well, because they have no relationship with you and they know that you

00:29:04.580 have no dog in the fight, so to speak. So when they say, we don't think you did it, it's much

00:29:11.000 more meaningful than, than when your best friend or somebody you've known for 20 or 30 years is the

00:29:18.420 person who did the interview. How hard is that to, you know, to buy, to buy into.

00:29:24.200 And it's like your boss's boss. I mean, it's like the, the justices are up here and everybody else at

00:29:28.900 court is down here. There's a very clear hierarchy and Gail's at the bottom of it. And the, the 0.99

00:29:34.380 justices are at the top, but I do wonder Phil, because we were told from the reports that the

00:29:38.660 questions she asked were, did you do it? Do you know who did it? And that was basically it. That

00:29:46.940 was not the entirety, but that was kind of the reporting was that that was the type of questioning

00:29:51.320 she was asking. Okay. You would have to ask those. But my point in, in mentioning you is if

00:29:56.900 you're a skilled interrogator or somebody who's been educated on the art of detecting deception,

00:30:01.960 you are looking for hands above the midline for clusters, for the buckets, for what did

00:30:07.580 you say? I'm sorry. You're like all those things that you just mentioned.

00:30:11.580 And we would have been asking many, many more questions. We would have been asking, um, not

00:30:17.700 only what involvement might you have had in this league? Um, how did you find out about the

00:30:23.760 league? How surprised were you when you found out when's the first time you heard about the

00:30:30.660 league? And the list can go on and on. If you think about each of those questions and use

00:30:35.940 the dichotomy of, of, uh, truthful or untruthful, the truthful person has a, you know, a, a story

00:30:45.000 or an explanation for each of those, uh, questions. But, but what do those questions mean to the

00:30:52.520 untruthful? Okay. Uh, how did I find out about it? Oh my gosh, I was, I was my idea. You know what

00:31:01.040 I mean? And, and that will, that will cause those deceptive behaviors that you're describing.

00:31:07.980 And all of those questions I just gave you are, are what we call repurposed questions. They're there

00:31:14.020 to get a specific piece of information, but what they do is it's like instant replay in sports.

00:31:20.400 It gives us another look at the key element, which is the act itself. You know, the, did you do it?

00:31:28.920 When I say, how surprised were you? The deceptive person, how surprised, like I said,

00:31:34.320 geez, it was my idea, you know, is what's going on in their head. So what do I say?

00:31:38.800 And there's, there's a ton of, of questions that you can come up with in these kinds of interviews

00:31:44.040 that give you a much better chance of, and you know, it's also, um, a much better chance for the

00:31:51.600 truthful person to demonstrate that they're being truthful. Because when you go through a whole series

00:31:56.760 and say, Hey, look, we asked Megan, you know, 10 questions and she didn't show any deception on those

00:32:03.120 questions. And that's, that's much more, has much more power or powerful in terms of the results.

00:32:10.700 One of the things that I find out that also is, um, confusing and contaminates these investigations

00:32:21.000 is when the, when the investigation is over, so often the people that you say are telling the truth,

00:32:30.040 they never ask you if you're sure, but almost inevitably, if, if you say that they're being

00:32:37.480 deceptive, they almost always say, well, wait a minute, are you sure? And it, and it's, it's just

00:32:43.400 human nature. We live in that society where we're innocent until proven guilty and, and being objective

00:32:51.820 isn't being, and, and, and managing your bias isn't being prejudiced against that individual in any way.

00:33:00.940 Mm-hmm. I, it's a fascinating thing to think of. You're, you're pressing the pressure point.

00:33:07.480 Only for the guilty person, because the non-guilty person is like, oh yeah, I found out when Bob told

00:33:12.260 me, yeah, it was shocking. My God. But that guilty person is like, danger, danger, danger with each of

00:33:18.700 those questions. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, um, and it's a more comprehensive approach and you often

00:33:27.600 get some information and some leads, you know, that person is trying to lead you in a certain

00:33:33.380 direction. And when you ask more than one or more than just a couple of questions, or look at the

00:33:39.600 other questions you're asking in the light that I described to you, it often gives you leads. The

00:33:46.140 behaviors tell you, um, you know, which way to go and how far down that path to go. Sometimes they get

00:33:54.340 right up to the precipice of getting the answer. Uh, Ann alluded to that, you know, when she was,

00:33:59.960 when you were talking to her, you know, the, the, the person doesn't even realize they have a

00:34:03.760 confession in front of them and, and, or the person just confessed or said something that was

00:34:08.860 really, really, uh, you know, incriminating and just, just not capturing all the messaging.

00:34:16.460 Oh, this is, I could go on like this for days and we will, when you come back and we do the full

00:34:20.040 feature of Phil Houston, the thing I've been most looking forward to since I launched the show.

00:34:23.500 Okay. Let's talk Murtoch because people are interested in this Murdoch case. Um, let's get the

00:34:28.640 first soundbite. This is the 911 call Alex Murdoch made after allegedly stumbling upon the bodies of

00:34:38.620 his wife and his, uh, son, who was I think 19 or 21, uh, at the time of his death. Here it is.

00:34:44.980 My wife and I got bad. I've been up to it now. It's fast. Did they shoot their self?

00:35:00.160 Oh no. Hell no. I can tell that he shot in the head. And he shot really bad. 0.98

00:35:06.960 Where? Where did he shot at? Ma'am, I don't know, but he's just born and where, um,

00:35:14.060 a lot in there just a couple of highlights for the audience if they couldn't hear it

00:35:29.120 um my wife and child got shot badly uh he says did they shoot themselves oh hell no

00:35:35.860 no hell no i can tell he shot in the head she shot really bad where's the shot at where's he shot at

00:35:41.920 ma'am i don't know there's blood everywhere i can see his brains she's got a hole in her head 1.00

00:35:45.620 what did you what did you make of it bill interestingly you don't see a lot of deception

00:35:51.560 in 911 calls but you do in this one and uh i was i was surprised when i saw it we got to the point

00:36:01.100 where alex said yes this is alex murdoch i need the police and an ambulance immediately my wife

00:36:08.180 and child got shot when alex is uh when murdoch is focusing on is the action as opposed to the

00:36:17.300 outcome he's saying he's saying my wife got or uh my wife and child got shot badly he never he never

00:36:25.240 touches the outcome you know geez i'm not sure if they're dead or alive i i think they've been killed

00:36:32.080 i think they're dead you know he just steers clear of that because that's what the consequences go you

00:36:38.920 know are most severe um and he also when he says the the way he says it it sounds like he's he's

00:36:48.300 actually saw he actually saw them get shot and that's what he's describing um and then the dispatcher

00:36:56.120 goes on and she says did they shoot themselves and he says oh hell no and immediately he he uses some

00:37:06.660 aggression behavior he's literally cursing at the 911 operator why is he doing that because she's out

00:37:15.620 now asking the question and starting in in his mind perhaps to to delve into who did the shooting

00:37:22.000 and that's the if he if he is the killer and which i think he is uh if he's the killer that's the last

00:37:29.440 thing he wants to be talking about um he also then has some inconsistencies when he when he says he

00:37:39.360 says after he says i can tell that uh that her was talking about his son that he shot in the head and

00:37:47.920 she shot really bad and the and the operator says well okay where's he shot at and he says ma'am i

00:37:54.780 don't know wait a minute you just said he was shot in the head now you're saying he doesn't know

00:37:59.960 and and then he says after a pause long pause he realizes perhaps his faux pas and he says well

00:38:08.040 there's blood everywhere and she and uh he said i can see his brains obviously if he can see where

00:38:17.000 those brains what part of the head region is he looking at um he just doesn't like that questioning

00:38:24.080 instead he gets off to his wife and simply says she has a hole in her head um and you know to sort

00:38:32.000 of tie it up and hopefully and you know take the he's taken the uh operator down a path far enough that

00:38:38.340 she'll drop it you know from uh from there not not the standard 9-1-1 that you would there's never a

00:38:49.020 standard 9-1-1 and you have to give people um some latitude because they're extremely emotional

00:38:58.100 you know they i mean these are the stimuli that they're looking at is can be extremely horrific

00:39:05.440 and that can certainly impact someone's communication style communication approach

00:39:11.580 what i'm suggesting to you is that that despite that um influence on that approach you can still

00:39:19.160 see deception at times and you see it in his you know in times that he's been emotional

00:39:24.940 so yeah so saying i don't i don't know where he's shot at his son but he's saying i can see his

00:39:34.020 brains and we've heard in this trial that the son's brains forgive me audience very graphic but

00:39:39.780 were shot all the way up to the ceiling it was a massive blast from this very powerful gun to then

00:39:45.820 pretend you don't know where he's been shot i mean it seems like it would have been very clear that he

00:39:50.580 was shot in his head and so you're saying the fact that he didn't just didn't go there tells us

00:39:55.220 something yeah keep in mind too megan that what the person who's being deceptive the criminal

00:40:02.840 is trying to control the situation at any point they can um and they're willing to say or not say

00:40:11.040 anything at that particular point because they just want to get through the moment and that's why

00:40:17.360 you end up saying people say say things sometimes that sound really ridiculous you know later on in

00:40:24.380 the aftermath but at the time that's the best they can come up with oh that's interesting because

00:40:30.360 it's a stress reliever when they're in control as opposed to when the the inquisitor is absolutely

00:40:36.280 absolutely okay let's do the second video this is alex murdoch and his first interrogation by the

00:40:43.380 police i pulled up and i could see him and you know i knew something was bad i ran out i knew it was

00:40:51.860 really bad my boy over there i could see it was

00:40:58.520 i mean i tried to do it as limited as possible but i i tried to take their pulse on both of them

00:41:28.120 have y'all been having any problems out here trespassers people breaking in

00:41:33.940 none that i know of the only thing that what comes to my mind is my son paul was in a boat wreck

00:41:41.160 a couple years ago and there's been a you know he was charged with being arrested for being a driver

00:41:50.900 there's been a lot of negative publicity about that he's been punched and hit and just attacked a lot

00:41:57.940 so you know but i mean nothing like this

00:42:02.980 a lot in there phil what are you seeing yeah you see a lot of things the first thing that jumps out at

00:42:09.700 me is when um he says i uh i touched them both i mean uh i tried to do it he he has what we call a false

00:42:20.360 start there when he says i touched them both he's trying to convey something but he realizes that that's

00:42:28.220 not the way he wants to go that's not the most effective thing for him to say and then he says i mean

00:42:36.100 i tried to do it as limited as possible so what's he trying to get at there he's trying to demonstrate

00:42:43.320 he knows he's talking to a police officer and so he's trying to show them that he's helping them

00:42:50.380 this is in that persuasion bucket okay the first part the false start is in that um manipulation bucket

00:42:59.500 okay and he's trying to demonstrate that he's being helpful at that moment in time that he's not

00:43:07.040 going to contaminate the crime scene in some way and you know it's hard to imagine that anyone that was

00:43:15.940 in that situation would be worried about the crime scene if they were looking at their son and their

00:43:22.140 daughter in with the horrific graphic damage that's been done to them um and they would have

00:43:29.200 very little reluctance to reaching out and seeing if there's a pulse and seeing if you know there's

00:43:34.360 just some miraculous chance that they're still alive and so forth again he's thinking about the action

00:43:40.920 that's there as opposed to the outcome that's that's that's really happened and the reason he's doing

00:43:47.760 is because he's got to convince the officers to look elsewhere that it's not that it's not him

00:43:54.420 and that leads us to the the next part where he says the only thing and then he stops and he says

00:44:02.000 what comes to mind you know and again it's another false start if the what's happening with the false

00:44:07.700 starts remember i said you think 10 times faster than you talk you realize that what you're about to

00:44:12.980 say maybe isn't as effective and so i got a better way to say it and he said so

00:44:17.740 what comes to mind uh and then he refers to his son paul and he starts going into the convinced

00:44:24.460 mode you know he was in a boat wreck a couple of years ago there was a lot of negative publicity and

00:44:30.540 then he was attacked and and so on trying to garner sympathy from the uh from the uh you know the

00:44:37.560 uh excuse me the officer instead of focusing on the officer's question and providing real information

00:44:45.880 that would help him starting with either yes or no hmm but but the officer says have you been having

00:44:52.180 any problems out here and he says trespassers or people breaking in so what isn't it on point to say

00:44:58.540 yes there are at least kind of saying would anybody have been here like causing problems he's not trying

00:45:04.120 to say there are people who are out to get us yes yeah yeah it's it's a much broader it's a much

00:45:09.880 it's a non-specific statement in other words there are people this this guy or the officer is looking

00:45:16.640 for some specific leads and he doesn't have those leads but he wants to broaden by by bringing up this

00:45:26.280 story what it also does for him is it broadens the requirements of the investigation in other words

00:45:33.920 it suggests there may be other people that you should be looking at so go look at them and don't

00:45:39.660 look at me um and that was what you called an anchor point shift that what comes to mind an anchor

00:45:46.060 point shift which you referenced earlier and can you just expand on what that is it's really a qualifier

00:45:51.000 it's really a qualifier what comes to mind at this moment it's like i'm going to give you this

00:45:56.480 and i'll see if that works and and if it doesn't then i'll go elsewhere which is what he did

00:46:02.680 okay last but not least um sergeant daniel green takes the stand and talks about sort of the manner

00:46:09.780 of alex murdoch when he's sitting there which sounded very cavalier that's why they put sergeant

00:46:14.380 green on the stand in part uh here's a little bit of that

00:46:16.880 i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry you're fine i'm very sorry

00:46:23.880 i'll call her here

00:46:31.980 what's what's her name 0.57

00:46:36.080 her name's maggie murdoch margaret brandstetter murdoch

00:46:43.080 how you doing what did the defendant just say let me back it up

00:46:52.180 how you doing what did the defendant say right there so i'm in the process of gathering information

00:47:06.000 about the two victims from mr murdoch somebody walks by behind me and he pauses what he's telling

00:47:11.260 me to say hey how you doing how you doing yeah and who was that he said that to i'm not 100 certain

00:47:17.920 i believe it was a fire rescue individual what do you think phil it's uh it's similar to something

00:47:26.060 we see in a lot of interrogations and so forth of a guilty person one of the things that happens

00:47:32.160 is they become frustrated during the process and so forth and they'll get upset and they start crying

00:47:39.040 or they start getting angry or whatever the case may be and we simply tell them that you know listen

00:47:46.920 we don't want it we didn't mean to make you angry you you know or upset you and um you know and it's not

00:47:53.820 going to help and then we just continue on with what we're doing and what we see happen in those

00:47:58.200 situations is the person turns off the anger or they turn off the distress almost instantly and

00:48:06.460 that's what murdoch is doing here he sees a chance to curry favor with this other first responder and

00:48:15.300 show how much respect he has for first responders and law enforcement and so forth and so it's easy to

00:48:22.720 turn off the feigning and then and then say hi how you doing it's like if you were if we were um

00:48:30.480 um practicing for a a play and your job was to cry and then they'd say well okay let's do that again

00:48:40.640 immediately you'd stop crying and you'd go back to the beginning you know so to speak and you you could

00:48:45.980 be smiling or whatever and then you'd put your acting face on and then start crying again

00:48:51.760 hmm and it also relates back to what you're saying earlier the curry favor like i tried to touch the

00:48:58.280 cell phones or the bodies as little as possible like i'm a good boy i cooperate with law enforcement

00:49:03.100 i'm definitely not a double murderer all all persuasion uh man absolutely all right so much more to get

00:49:11.600 into phil stays with us and we are bringing in more experts to talk about the latest in the idaho

00:49:17.520 murders this is a great show stay with us

00:49:19.920 now for an in-depth look at the case against brian kohlberger the man suspected of killing four

00:49:28.300 college students in idaho back with me now phil houston but also joining us are two of his business

00:49:34.180 partners mike swain is a private investigator and former nypd detective and bill stanton is with us as

00:49:40.860 well bill's a former nypd police officer and also the author of the book prepared not scared

00:49:47.460 your go-to guide for staying safe in an unsafe world guys great to have you here

00:49:53.440 nice to be here thank you and i will disclose to the audience that your firm is so great that i use

00:50:00.020 you guys for security as well when unfortunate things pop up in my life as they sometimes do for

00:50:05.320 all public figures and uh one of the many reasons i'm such a huge fan of you all um more on that later

00:50:11.280 so okay we're going to get into this from all angles phil you've got obviously your deception

00:50:16.380 detection techniques and you all work um together now helping corporate companies look into these

00:50:21.560 things and other people like me figure out if there are bad guys in their lives um and we're

00:50:25.500 going to go inside the mind of this guy since i left off with phil doing analysis of soundbites

00:50:31.200 and lies that's where i'm just going to pick it up to kick this off and what better way than stopping

00:50:36.260 with that first police stop when brian kohlberger got stopped with his dad who had picked him up

00:50:42.260 this is post murders um december 15th of just this past 2022 he's driving cross country and he gets

00:50:49.260 pulled over in a traffic stop this is weeks after he has allegedly committed committed a quadruple

00:50:55.500 homicide here it is where you headed well we're coming from wsu you're coming from washington state

00:51:09.460 university and you're going there oh we're going to be going oh okay yeah a little we're trying to

00:51:19.140 so y'all work at the university there actually all right i'm going to translate that for people

00:51:27.540 because it's hard to hear uh where you headed where um this is brian um actually we're just going to

00:51:33.820 get some thai food dad well we're coming from wsu brian's looking forward starts nodding officer so

00:51:40.340 you're coming from washington state university brian does not nod but his dad does dad we're going to

00:51:45.660 pennsylvania we're slightly punchy because we've been driving for hours officer so you say you all

00:51:51.120 work at the university father points to brian brian i actually do work there all right phil what did you

00:51:55.800 make of that um not good in terms of brian's uh responses to the police officer when when he asked

00:52:03.700 where are you going when you're when a police officer stops you on the side of the road and says where

00:52:09.200 are you going he's looking for your destination so to speak and brian lies about it conceals the

00:52:17.040 destination and really lies about what they're actually doing which is traveling all the way across

00:52:22.400 country you know to from washington to pennsylvania he says instead he answers we're just going to get

00:52:29.320 some some some typhoon right now um he brian clearly doesn't want to engage the the officer at all he

00:52:39.760 doesn't want to give him any information his dad recognizes i think how bad brian's answer sounded

00:52:47.040 and therefore he's the one that got them back on the right path saying look we're from washington state

00:52:52.540 and uh you know and we're we're we're going elsewhere um you know we do have a destination

00:52:59.340 mm-hmm yeah it is weird we're just going to get some thai food that's not what's happening like

00:53:05.200 you're you're driving cross country washington state yeah like it's an obvious dodge and the facts are

00:53:12.120 bill that they took a different route than the most direct directly across country brian wanted to go

00:53:17.060 south he allegedly claimed it was because of bad weather um but it was sort of interesting he chose

00:53:22.420 the route and it was not the most direct one it has people wondering you know was he trying to lose

00:53:26.440 potential followers why would he do that this plus the license plate situation where he changed out his

00:53:33.240 um pennsylvania license plate for a washington state license plate shortly after the murders what do you

00:53:39.120 make of it well we were all talking you know in prep for this and as mike noted there would have been

00:53:46.980 license plates from all over the country at a university he changed the license plates we believe

00:53:53.560 to blend in and as far as taking the serratip ser you know the roundabout route if you will

00:53:59.500 was to stay off the main roads and you have to think to yourself that information by this time was out

00:54:07.420 what was the father thinking the father would have known the routes why are we going this way

00:54:12.620 did he have any clue what was going on so you know i think we're all in agreement we believe this guy

00:54:19.480 is guilty uh it's fascinating given the fact that he is a doctoral student and how much was he using

00:54:27.900 from what he learned to try to commit the perfect murder in his mind oh my god well bill that's what's

00:54:33.960 so crazy so now the news this week is that he applied for a police internship he wanted your old job

00:54:40.780 bell and mike he applied for a police and we knew he was studying criminology but he applied seven

00:54:46.780 months before the killings for an internship with the police here and um in pullman washington right so

00:54:54.880 where he was about to go to do to get his phd and get this uh it's unclear whether he was hired

00:55:01.640 and the pullman police have declined to answer i mean there is some possibility he was interning for

00:55:09.080 the police at the time of these crimes megan in my mind this fits into the category of what we call

00:55:15.220 countermeasure behavior so it's starting out you know very early what i mean by early is there's still

00:55:21.780 months off from a killing but in his mind he may well have had a something in his mind that he was going

00:55:29.700 to do that was bad so joining the police department having some connection by the police department in his

00:55:35.580 mind might very likely have served two purposes first of all from the persuasion context it it's he's an

00:55:45.340 insider now why would anyone look at him you know immediately as the you know the uh the perpetrator

00:55:52.320 uh and then secondly if he's inside it's possible he may get some access to what's going on in the

00:56:01.400 investigation to details of the investigation that may give him some more early warning uh if the

00:56:08.640 police do start to talk you know zero in on him wow i mean to think about him seven months out

00:56:15.980 planning to that extent like i'm going to get in i'm going to get to get an inside role give myself a

00:56:21.560 leg up on the investigation i mean it's chilling um the other thing we learned this week is that

00:56:27.140 the uh the evidence the the amount of evidence that the state has gathered and produced over to

00:56:32.300 the defense it includes 995 pages of documents one audio slash video file no more detail on that

00:56:40.100 a uh 1865 photos i'm sure that would have included photos of the crime scene and what have you but

00:56:48.240 um i mean the biggest case i mean you tell me mike but i feel like this case in large part uh could

00:56:54.120 come down to the crime scene they haven't released much on what they found there other than that

00:56:59.560 sheath of the knife but would you expect there's a lot more absolutely i think there's a lot more

00:57:07.820 forensic evidence to be gathered from the scene i think the police department's done an excellent job

00:57:13.760 of staying tight-lipped not letting a lot of information out to the public a crime scene like this

00:57:20.320 is going to yield tons of evidence the perpetrator when he goes into the crime scene he's going to

00:57:27.400 bring something in when he leaves he's going to bring something out there's going to be hair fiber

00:57:33.540 dna blood all sorts of different types of evidence and it's going to take a long time for all of this to

00:57:40.360 get sorted processed analyzed and see what's actually useful for prosecution and what's not

00:57:47.380 why do you think that there will be his blood i mean his blood at the crime scene that's ball game

00:57:52.340 but he had gloves he had the mask i'm sure you know he was probably clothed head to toe as it seems from

00:57:58.840 the eyewitness reporting uh of the roommate who survived so why would you think his blood might be

00:58:03.080 there cases that i've had in the past that involved knife stabbing this vicious rage this this violent

00:58:13.040 attack almost all of the times the perpetrator has cut himself accidentally during the rage of the

00:58:20.460 stabbing the knife will slip the blade will cut a finger during some kind of a struggle and i have to

00:58:27.400 believe somebody struggled i don't think this was just as easy as going in and killing four sleeping

00:58:33.120 students there had to be some semblance of a struggle from at least the one victim that allegedly was

00:58:40.460 found on the floor not on the bed um so i think that it's going to come out at some point that he

00:58:47.060 probably cut himself and he did in fact leave some blood behind at the scene i mean again we think he

00:58:53.560 wore gloves um but we don't know we haven't found the murder weapon uh how important is that going to

00:58:59.580 be bill there's no murder weapon and and can you speak more to mike's point about he goes in there and

00:59:05.420 he kills these four victims like they're right next to each other the two the two and the two were

00:59:09.940 sleeping right next to each other it remains to to be answered how was there no noise how how wasn't

00:59:16.960 there why do we have screams as the person next to you is getting murdered well you know you bring up

00:59:23.420 a fascinating point and again we were talking about this how much of this did he role play how much

00:59:30.840 information from studying possibly studying serial killers or murderers did he practice on the most

00:59:38.480 effective way or google the most effective way to kill someone with a knife how to do it silently you

00:59:44.900 know killing someone it's it's hard to kill someone unless you go with the direct you know thrust to the 0.76

00:59:51.840 heart or you slice the throat with your hand sorry to talk about this this way but this is how we talk

00:59:58.160 behind the scenes you know there's going to be noise and was he able to see that there was a male

01:00:05.620 you know there was a surveillance he did surveillance before he went in you know our understanding you

01:00:12.420 know based on the pinging of the phone and we don't we can't say it's absolutely him but his phone pinged

01:00:19.000 at around 3 30 it was a food delivery at about four he went in right after that right so if he went in as soon

01:00:28.940 as he got there when that food delivery knocked on the door he could have disturbed the whole act so he goes

01:00:35.220 in two people you mean there's no noise right then to your point he goes down to the second floor does

01:00:42.960 he give you know the female uh uh stab her mike has a great theory he thinks she heard the noise on the

01:00:51.360 third floor opens the door and sees him directly he engaged her and then went to the male and that's 0.98

01:00:59.200 where there may have been some scuffling and defensive wounds as well mike didn't you uh mention that

01:01:05.220 what you're talking about because he went in the original two murders were the two women on the

01:01:09.700 third floor and then he went down to the to the uh couple the male female couple who was on the

01:01:15.740 second floor so what what's the theory mike my theory is the uh the couple on the second floor she was

01:01:22.660 found on the floor not on the bed she just received the food delivery at four o'clock in the morning

01:01:28.800 she had to take time to eat it she was on tiktok i believe at 4 12 so this was not going to be a

01:01:35.540 sleeping victim like the two up on the third floor were um i my theory is that she heard some noise

01:01:43.320 she might have opened up the door probably right at the point that he was about to enter the door

01:01:48.000 she might have been stabbed initially fell onto the floor he went onto the bed stabbed the male and then

01:01:54.260 came back and finished off the female um i just wanted to make another point about the possibility

01:02:00.020 of him cutting himself only one glove was found during the search warrant one i believe was a black

01:02:09.000 nitrile glove the cut would have probably went right through the glove and it might have been something

01:02:16.140 that he might have disposed of with the knife hmm yeah because he definitely got rid of the murder

01:02:22.660 weapon and was sure to take that with him but didn't remember that sheath which to those of us

01:02:28.480 on the outside you know seems impossible right like that he managed to get in there he managed to kill

01:02:33.480 four people he managed not to be detected he managed not to have anybody really hear him at least in the

01:02:38.500 neighboring houses or call 9-1-1 but he forgot the sheath of the knife i don't like what does that tell

01:02:44.160 you guys i don't i don't think that he quote forgot it i don't think he realized he lost it until it

01:02:50.400 was too late during the heat of of all of this struggle all these victims two different floors

01:02:56.400 i don't think he knows where he lost it quite honestly i think it simply fell off and and for

01:03:01.380 you and and everyone here and in your audience have they ever had an emergency situation where your

01:03:08.780 adrenaline is pumping and they call it uh an adrenaline dump once that dump occurs you're exhausted

01:03:17.220 and you just want to get you know out of the scene out of the area you know whether it's a fist fight

01:03:23.500 or whether you're killing four people and wanting to get away as soon as possible you are not thinking

01:03:29.880 clearly no matter how many times he may have done this in his mind and gone through it and gone through

01:03:35.900 the rooms and role played it you know in actuality killing someone for the first time is you know surreal

01:03:45.280 and i know like i i think i read you say phil something to the effect of he would have been

01:03:51.880 in there that this could have been an obsession and after one commits a murder like this there tends

01:03:58.720 to be a sense of euphoria which is i mean that is just chilling that that that's what he might have

01:04:06.020 been feeling can you talk a little bit about that me bill i don't know which which one of you said

01:04:12.540 that it was somebody who said to our producer debbie i think it was phil talking about how um

01:04:18.220 normally they feel exhilarated like these serial killers this is not you know he would have been

01:04:23.940 like on a high in terms of the knife sheath and leaving behind you know a messy crime scene this

01:04:29.800 wouldn't have been sheer panic yeah well i i think i was talking about you know the uh oh gosh mike

01:04:36.120 help me with the name again the strangle victim you know in central park robert chambers robert

01:04:41.680 chambers there was a murder robert chambers central park where he actually went back you know based on

01:04:48.460 the phone pinging we found out you know the perpetrator possibly with the phone went back to

01:04:54.080 the scene of the crime almost like a hunt and looking at you know with pride the euphoria

01:05:00.180 of this is what i've done let me see what they're finding out and you know wanting to relish almost

01:05:07.800 like a football player spiking the football and celebrating the touchdown as macabre and as horrible

01:05:13.960 it is to think you know that's what these people you know do it for they do it for the juice or the

01:05:21.540 revenge now the interesting part here is was this uh hate killing or a revenge killing or was this

01:05:30.120 the beginning of a serial killing right what do you think

01:05:33.880 you know i think this man's life you know judging from the self-loathing at 16 years old he wrote

01:05:43.660 something you know to his family how he just like hates himself right and then all the things it seems

01:05:50.940 when this guy came to forks in his life crossroads he kept making the wrong turn and it ultimately

01:06:00.100 led to this you know we say how do we stop a crime well you can't stop a crime such as this

01:06:06.800 because you don't know until it actually happens but there were times in this man's life where he

01:06:13.760 could have made different decisions and in my opinion he made all the wrong ones obviously

01:06:18.720 and it brought us to this moment you mentioned those writings uh howard bloom for airmail news is

01:06:25.000 well worth reading on this subject he's done a couple of in-depth reports and is writing a book on it

01:06:29.220 for harper collins as well and um his reporting went back and pulled some of the writings we've

01:06:33.760 heard these out in the in the public but not described so well um he says okay just to bring

01:06:41.560 a flavor of it um okay there is also by his own admission and in his own words another side to him

01:06:49.700 one that is dark detached and steep deep in misery unhappiness and alienation can often dominate

01:06:55.420 his mood says coleberger writing as a desperate teenager on the website tapa talk for the teenager

01:07:02.180 brian coleberger if his online posts are are any reliable guide visual snow had at times buried his

01:07:09.300 existence in an avalanche of despondency and desperation he said he suffered from something

01:07:14.120 called visual snow like he sort of i call him the ant races that you see on tv when you're when

01:07:18.080 programming has ended um he says his posts were often her his posts were calls from the wild consider

01:07:26.160 i often think of myself as an organic sack of meat with no self-worth i'm starting to view everyone as

01:07:33.620 this i always feel as if i am not there i am not there completely depersonalized constant thoughts of

01:07:40.840 suicide crazy thoughts delusions of grandeur poor self-image no emotion this is brian coleberger writing 0.97

01:07:47.120 i feel like nothing has a point to it everyone hates me pretty much i am an asshole as i hug my 0.97

01:07:53.860 family i see nothing it is like i am looking at a video game but less oh so dark what do you glean 0.75

01:08:02.680 from that guys i mean so what what you see here it's almost as if like megan you studied to become a

01:08:09.740 lawyer you had a goal that was your goal you know all of us have goals in life was a physical or mental

01:08:16.420 goals to strive to achieve it seems that his goal was to become this evil loathing person what he had

01:08:26.800 within to project to the world and unfortunately for us he accomplished that goal what do you make of

01:08:33.300 it phil megan um the way i would describe it and i agree with what what bill was saying what you see in

01:08:41.880 the in those early comments uh about himself is an emerging psychopath in my opinion and that's not

01:08:49.240 just you know a a loose observation uh while well none of us are are psychologists uh we were trained

01:08:56.860 to identify certain symptoms of psychopathy and even as a teenager and and you see these you could

01:09:04.780 see um behaviors that are evidence of psychopathy the four major characteristics that you're looking for

01:09:14.260 initially number one is extreme narcissism number two is um and this one's really important the rules

01:09:23.360 don't apply to me and the epitome of that particular um element in this case is is what worse rule to

01:09:33.280 violate than killing someone and then the other two rules are um immaturity and grandiosity the

01:09:40.640 reference to delusions of grandeur and things these are things that he believes that he can do some of

01:09:47.420 the other things that he said he he about himself he said whatever i i want to do i can do with little

01:09:53.780 remorse and and in other words he doesn't care about the consequences he believes he's smarter than

01:10:00.000 everyone else he that he can figure out how to do what he wants to do and not get caught it's a common

01:10:07.460 threat of a serial killer do you feel phil like he he was on his way like that he was a serial killer in

01:10:15.020 the making absolutely i think bill or or or mike said it or both said it i agree completely this could

01:10:22.720 be the infancy of his serial serial killer career in in uh and everything that he was doing was

01:10:32.300 preparing for that he went to got his master's degree in criminal justice and then he he's now

01:10:39.300 working on a doctoral degree and he asked to work at you we talked earlier um about him applying for

01:10:47.380 a job in the police department and then he applied in another situation just a few months before the

01:10:53.960 killing for an internship and uh you know at a police department all for the purpose of helping him

01:11:02.300 uh become in my opinion potentially a better serial killer oh my gosh i mean the reason we go there of

01:11:10.120 course is there's no clear motive for these murders you know it's not like he dated one of the girls

01:11:16.940 or we can put together a scenario where he was clearly rejected by one of the girls that's not

01:11:21.740 there so we're left to wonder without a connection between them why he doesn't need a motive that's

01:11:28.340 the thing about a psychopath they can do what they want to do they live life on their terms and and so

01:11:35.560 anytime anyone offends him or or rubs him the wrong way or just even without knowing it um enrages him

01:11:46.880 then then then that's that's a reason for action mike do you glean anything from the crime scene

01:11:54.800 when it comes to motive because we know from some of the reporting that poor kaylee was was forgive the

01:12:02.240 term hacked worse than the others she seemed to be the main target i guess um she was up on the top 1.00

01:12:10.480 floor again with her roommate and that's where he is believed to have gone first yeah i i um i

01:12:18.180 definitely feel that kaylee was the primary target based on the description from the coroner as to her

01:12:24.800 injuries um you know we don't know how many times everybody's been stabbed i mean again they're so

01:12:30.440 tight-lipped over there i mean here in new york you know we had a you know an emt lieutenant stabbed a

01:12:36.060 couple of months back and it was immediately in the news she was stabbed x amount of times okay this

01:12:41.940 is information that we don't have so we don't know exactly what the rage was regarding each individual

01:12:48.320 victim the locations of the stab wounds we don't have that either how many of these stab wounds

01:12:53.720 were defensive stab wounds versus offensive stab wounds so a lot of that when it eventually comes out

01:13:00.760 i think is going to be helpful in determining you know was there one particular intended victim was

01:13:07.320 everybody else collateral damage um it's going to remain to be seen as more and more information

01:13:12.940 comes out well what do you guys make of it though because i do think it's very interesting that

01:13:17.200 you know kaylee and maddie best friends for life they were sleeping in the bed together going to sleep

01:13:22.240 after a night fun night out and the the you mentioned the coroner they she described it as large

01:13:28.980 punctures describing the lacerations in kaylee and maddie's wounds uh were more measured i guess

01:13:37.740 for lack of a better term at least in comparison so i mean really what what psychologically would make

01:13:44.020 you you know go go go after so with such ferocity the one and then still want to kill the other but

01:13:53.140 do it in like a more a less gruesome manner

01:13:56.740 well i mean oh go right ahead bill no mike you go no what i was what i was going to say was we still

01:14:05.820 don't know who the target of his messaging was i think it came out that he was trying to measure

01:14:12.280 a message somebody that for whatever reason disregarded him didn't respond back maybe it's people

01:14:19.620 magazine with one source but we haven't confirmed yet keep going it's not confirmed and i and i have

01:14:24.300 to believe that when it comes out it's going to wind up probably being kaylee that was the one that

01:14:30.060 he was attempting to make contact with that for whatever reason she either chose not to engage with him

01:14:38.360 or she had no idea that he was attempting to contact her i think it'll come out eventually that

01:14:43.640 she was the one that he was most interested in do you guys buy that this guy was an incel you know

01:14:50.260 an involuntarily celibate who was you know just angry about that condition about women you know about

01:14:56.940 the vivacity of these young girls like do you believe that there was no sexual assault um but what

01:15:02.840 do you make of that theory go ahead bill well i i mean i i've seen you know we're seeing these

01:15:08.500 this generation this generation in and around his age where their whole world is on the phone and at

01:15:17.020 the computer right and they take their rage out they write everything out and like a drug when that

01:15:23.980 doesn't become enough for them some step outside of the cyber world almost like stepping outside of

01:15:30.120 the matrix matrix and going into the real world and you know when we have investigations what we do is

01:15:35.900 kind of like what we're doing here we throw different theories around just to go back you were

01:15:40.440 talking about the the knife you know one had dramatic wounds the other one had more neat wounds it could

01:15:46.420 have easily have been he got one in the sleep where he was able to slip it into the heart or the throat you

01:15:54.980 know while holding them out where the other one woke up or you flip it the first murder he had such

01:16:01.120 adrenaline and then he just had to do it like he couldn't contain himself and then the proceedings

01:16:07.200 they got you know easier and more efficient if you will i mean we were also talking about the witness

01:16:14.860 you know when we can get into that in a little bit oh yeah i definitely want to ask you about her

01:16:19.120 um everybody was like what was she thinking and i go more to that thing in the cyber world when faced

01:16:25.260 with a real life you know dilemma she short-circuited well i mean a lot of us would

01:16:31.780 have short-circuited if some stranger had been found inside of our home a college girl you know

01:16:36.320 you those are the ones who get murdered you know having been a college girl i can speak to this

01:16:40.600 your whole college you worry about getting murdered it's part of being a young woman in america sadly

01:16:45.040 um so any young woman seeing a stranger with a mask on dressed in black in her home after having

01:16:51.340 allegedly heard him say something like you're gonna be okay you know on another floor to a roommate

01:16:56.140 would be terrified i get all that i don't get sitting there for seven hours doing nothing not

01:17:02.940 calling 9-1-1 you know nothing bill i don't i don't know what to make of that well mike and i have

01:17:09.800 conflicting uh conflicting theories so i'll let mike do his all right go ahead mike um you know everybody

01:17:17.180 had been out earlier in the evening um to a certain degree i feel that you know it's possible that she

01:17:24.940 might have been um you know semi-intoxicated under the influence of something to where she went into 1.00

01:17:32.260 that shock phase where she initially encountered this burglar because that's all he really was at

01:17:37.400 that point a potential burglar to her she had no idea what had happened you know uh upstairs on the third

01:17:44.060 floor and she locked herself in the door she made herself safe and she probably just passed out from 0.99

01:17:51.000 a combination of fear fright um you know stress whatever i i mean i just i there has to be a reason

01:17:58.480 and we haven't heard it really from her as to what took seven to eight hours to actually pick up a phone

01:18:05.180 and call 9-1-1 and i i'd really love to hear what her reason is as opposed to you know the the theories

01:18:13.140 as to what she was going through what she felt i'd love to hear from her what took seven hours because

01:18:18.840 i can understand okay you see him in the house maybe you're thinking one of your roommates just

01:18:23.260 hooked up with him right if you think he's he's not a threat and you just go back to sleep that i

01:18:27.940 totally get but i don't get i saw him i was scared so scared i was frozen in fear and then i didn't

01:18:35.620 call 9-1-1 for eight hours i don't get that bill well you see exactly you know listen in my youth

01:18:41.940 i did a little drinking myself and there's no way you know there was enough noise to wake her up or

01:18:50.240 startle her to make her come out of the room she sees this guy and we think it's a covet mask not a

01:18:56.960 full face mask but you see this person come out with a mask it's gonna be okay and you're saying you're

01:19:03.100 in fear i'm gonna go with that sensory deprivation that you know i i've never you know today's parents

01:19:11.660 they smooth out for the most part not you they smooth out every speed bump in these children's

01:19:17.180 lives so when they're faced with any adversity they don't know how to handle it i've seen it within my

01:19:23.020 own family i've seen it with cases with children not to this extent obviously so i just think she went

01:19:30.300 into total shock thinking what am i going to do is he still out there afraid to call and i think it

01:19:37.100 was just not knowing how to handle the situation oh my god i mean that's no critical thinking no

01:19:43.980 nothing and literally a deer in the headlights well i mean you can kind of understand it but

01:19:51.100 but i'd understand it better if there'd been a call at least at some point like i going back inside

01:19:57.000 locking your door and then calling 911 and that's what you need to get yourself out of this situation

01:20:00.960 get a cop it would make and it would make more much more sense if she said i didn't realize he was a

01:20:04.700 threat you know i thought he was we're having a party upstairs i went to but that's not the story

01:20:08.240 and i do think there's going to be a real question at trial about whether they put her on the stand

01:20:11.920 like can this woman take the stand um and stare down brian kohlberger and tell the story and not panic 0.52

01:20:20.360 yeah right i mean that's going to be a challenge for the prosecutor and for her

01:20:24.300 and by the way we never hear anything about the other roommate there was a sixth roommate

01:20:27.380 we haven't heard anything about the sixth roommate and whether that person saw anything or whether

01:20:32.260 that person's a potential witness here either we we did see a prosecution objection to releasing

01:20:36.480 anything to the defense that would identify informants informants and it's like well what

01:20:43.280 this isn't like a drug case what who would an informant be we'll pick it up there after a quick

01:20:48.200 break more with phil bill and mike as they stay with us

01:20:51.620 so what we know from investigators is um that they're well from the police is that they're not

01:21:00.420 handing over information about an informant as i mentioned before the break and here is how the

01:21:05.820 prosecutor put it i'll read you the statement to the extent because they have to give everything

01:21:10.680 to the defense that you have as the prosecution um if you're going to be relying on it at trial

01:21:15.040 or if it's exculpatory meaning suggest they didn't do it to the extent that information exists

01:21:21.620 regarding an informant who is not going to be produced as a witness including recordings or

01:21:27.560 written statements of an informant or that identify an informant such information is not subject to

01:21:33.760 disclosure and the state asserts informant privilege rights prosecuting attorney william w johnson jr

01:21:40.840 could this be the sixth roommate i don't think so i don't i don't think so at all i think the term

01:21:49.340 informant is very specific i don't think informant and witness are interchangeable whatsoever what do

01:21:57.160 you what do you make of that statement then mike what someone someone after they locked them up

01:22:01.480 maybe a cellmate someone in the someone in the jail well why would they be using information from

01:22:09.660 that person and not producing them at trial mike i don't i don't necessarily think that they you know

01:22:16.580 are using information from anybody i sort of think that they're just covering their bases just in case

01:22:22.580 you know maybe they do have information from someplace they haven't been able to verify it could have

01:22:27.700 been a conversation overheard something said uh you know offhanded to somebody and i i think they're

01:22:34.100 just you know keeping it really tight in idaho you know as opposed to other places i think they're just

01:22:39.660 keeping everything really tight and they're you know gonna gonna play it step by step as as things

01:22:44.960 develop now brian kohlberger seems to be continuing in his attempts to manipulate people us the whole

01:22:52.880 process um he's made a couple of court appearances and while we don't always get the sound we get to

01:23:00.060 see him um sometimes we don't see him in any event there was an initial court appearance in idaho

01:23:05.900 and um i'd love to know what you guys make of this especially you phil watch this

01:23:10.280 walking in he's got his orange jubsuit sits down next to his female attorney smiles shakes his head at 0.97

01:23:20.680 her like yeah yeah i'm good now he's just staring forward nodding his head nodding the judge is

01:23:28.940 walking through the charges is there anything to be gleaned from that phil not a whole lot i mean he's

01:23:34.260 he's trying to look cool calm and collected was my immediate thought and again like he's unmoved or

01:23:41.100 on you know he's not unnerved by this whole proceeding uh it's all part of the persuasion mentality

01:23:47.820 because it to me it reminds me sort of the the smile and the nodding of the head reminds me of

01:23:53.700 what you were saying about alex murdoch you know like i'm a good boy i comply with law enforcement

01:23:58.360 you're you're all going to really love me in here trust me at at one point someone um i'm sorry that

01:24:05.000 was a yeah at one point um he supposedly turned to his parents and said i love you mouth i love you

01:24:13.880 and it's exactly that same thing it's like i'm the good the good child and um you know i haven't

01:24:21.020 done anything wrong and that's what he's just trying to convince the whole world of you know

01:24:26.760 you megan in my opinion what i what i'm seeing and what the vibe that i'm getting is here's a guy

01:24:32.700 that has been essentially marginalized his whole life never got the girl you know at the at the high

01:24:40.220 school reunion they didn't even know him even when he had his nag name tag on right so here he is 0.98

01:24:46.900 like it or not he's getting his close-up this is his day in the sun and he's still playing chess

01:24:54.540 my guess is he still thinks he's smarter than all of us and he's going to play this to the bitter end

01:25:00.920 and he unfortunately got what he wants this even said he hopes he's generated

01:25:06.940 yeah so i want this is this brings me to what i know phil says is that the biggest thing of all the

01:25:13.340 absolute biggest thing so brian kohlberger i don't know how widely known it was that brian kohlberger

01:25:19.140 talked he spoke to the law enforcement uh officials initially and before he asked for a lawyer

01:25:28.740 but what he said and what he didn't say are hugely important to you phil can you explain

01:25:34.600 yeah he talked to them for 15 minutes and then he lawyered up my suspicion is is that he went in

01:25:42.760 with perhaps the exact mindset that bill was describing uh full of himself and believing that

01:25:49.940 he can snooker these guys and he quickly found out that he couldn't that um whatever excuses whatever

01:25:58.180 attempts at countermeasures or persuasion that he was uh trying to employ simply didn't work and when

01:26:05.920 that realization hit him his next best move was to get himself out of there by lawyering up

01:26:12.600 but he did release a statement to us all of us through his lawyer that he looks forward to being

01:26:21.680 exonerated so he's definitely trying to tell us i'm i am going to be found not guilty but the words

01:26:29.340 used raised a red flag for you why there's there's something very important missing from that statement

01:26:36.480 uh megan and that is i didn't do it and and and it is in in their efforts to focus on convincing

01:26:47.200 everybody that they didn't do what they forget to say i didn't do it and it's not a it is not a

01:26:55.800 truthful fact for them in fact they're dealing mentally with an ugly fact which is i did do it

01:27:02.540 and so that that gets pushed to the background and now i have to focus on strategy and how do i get out of

01:27:10.620 this oh we talked about this in the past but we've talked about how it would be the equivalent of there's a

01:27:16.580 bank robbery and phil sits down across from me and says did you do it and i say i would never rob a

01:27:22.200 bank i wasn't raised like that how dare you ask me that what was the question again right like all

01:27:27.220 those things like red flags all over no the normal person is like no i didn't do it

01:27:34.420 yeah it's a convinced conveyed dilemma that i spoke about earlier when we're talking about murdoch

01:27:42.460 it's that your questions start to put them on the spot and they can't convey because that that

01:27:50.880 that's bad for them that that brings consequences and instead they're they're trying to do everything

01:27:58.200 under the sun to convince you that it wasn't them mike one of the eerie things about that video that

01:28:05.180 we saw him driving the white hyundai elantra with his dad cross-country to go back home to

01:28:09.800 poconos in the pennsylvania is um that that's the getaway car if what the police are telling us is

01:28:17.540 true that's the getaway car that he got into after he murdered them and he's we're seeing inside of it

01:28:24.360 we're seeing him it's it's eerie but that car is huge in this investigation

01:28:30.780 absolutely that car is going to be very huge in this investigation i mean listen

01:28:38.260 we know that he cleaned it um i'm personally a little surprised that the investigators

01:28:46.020 watched him clean this car and allowed it to go on uh without at some point you know stepping in

01:28:54.200 and trying to pull you know some kind of a rabbit out of a hat and prevent he did it when he was

01:29:00.020 already on their radar he did just to interject he did it when he was already on their radar and

01:29:03.600 being monitored by the fbi back in pennsylvania according to the correct i'm just a little

01:29:07.680 shocked that they're acknowledging that they watched him thoroughly scrub this car down however

01:29:13.820 even with the thoroughly scrubbing it down once they forensically process this car it's virtually

01:29:20.680 impossible to get rid of you know all traces of evidence i mean that blood you know if there was

01:29:27.060 blood it's going to seep through a rug seep through upholstery seep through you know whatever and

01:29:33.300 they'll find it that that car is going to eventually give off some type of evidence that's going to be

01:29:39.980 used against him but is it possible mike that we are over estimating the amount of blood he would

01:29:46.020 have had on him now i realize the reports of they're saying there was so much blood at the house it was

01:29:52.280 seeping out of the the doors like the windows it would the ways of exiting the house there the the

01:30:00.500 same reporter howard blum who was writing for that airmail talks about how the the first responders who

01:30:05.440 got on the scene talked about how they could smell blood which i didn't even know was a thing so i i see

01:30:12.600 your point he probably had some on him but is there are is it possible we're overestimating that and

01:30:17.440 that there was a way of him not no absolutely not i mean a crime scene like that four different

01:30:23.140 victims all that rage the number of stab wounds self-defense wounds somebody trying to fight back

01:30:29.340 there's going to be blood everywhere so i i don't think we're overestimating at all he left that crime

01:30:36.420 scene with a lot of blood you know megan speaking of the car mike mike did the route on the ride home

01:30:45.200 on his ride home and mike i'll let you say and that's what we were talking about why did he take

01:30:52.240 such the long way home was it to dump off his clothes the knife etc mike you know you looked you

01:31:00.660 looked up the route on the route home versus the route there how how different was it

01:31:05.460 the the route was obviously very different um you know he went all the way south to go west to go back

01:31:14.080 north um it's something that investigators are going to have to look at you know why would he

01:31:19.060 take that route did he know somebody along the way was he planning on dumping the knife dumping his

01:31:25.560 clothes changing his clothes it's a very interesting route that he took and i i think it's being looked

01:31:32.280 at and hopefully at some point we'll find out why he took this this totally out of the way when you

01:31:39.360 know 12 prior occasions where we believe that he'd been scouting the location going back and forth

01:31:45.180 it's a quick eight mile you know 10 minute ride uh so after the crimes committed why he wouldn't want

01:31:52.360 to as quickly as possible get back home get back where it's safe do what he needs to do to dispose of

01:31:59.380 whatever he needs to dispose of instead he puts himself out there for this extended period of time he puts

01:32:06.560 himself out there at great risk he's driving a car that was you know at the scene of a quadruple 1.00

01:32:13.920 homicide he's probably covered in blood he's got a weapon with him that's covered in blood it's just an

01:32:21.240 amazing risk that he would have taken given how smart and cautious i i think he felt that he was

01:32:28.000 so the reward would have had to be high and wouldn't that reward have been i gotta hide this knife and i gotta

01:32:34.800 hide this bloody clothing and you know sneakers like everything that and so that why aren't they

01:32:41.620 pouring over that distance you know like we do when somebody's missing walking side by side getting

01:32:47.580 the community to volunteer walking every inch of that area i i actually think that they are you know

01:32:56.120 once again they're very tight-lipped i think absolutely they are i think they're also looking

01:33:00.700 to try to find out if he has any tie to the neighborhood that he drove through to see if he

01:33:06.700 knows anybody in those areas they're going to go through his computer did he research any you know

01:33:12.060 local dump in any of those towns that he drove past i think they're doing a lot of work on that because i

01:33:17.520 think it's obvious that he did not want to show back up at his residence bloodied okay i think he

01:33:25.480 changed his clothes somewhere along the way he got rid of the weapon and it was a spot that he was

01:33:31.000 familiar with he's been there before you don't just get on i-95 just start driving south and all of a

01:33:36.820 sudden get on i-95 i-195 west and start driving west you know where you're going he knew or or or

01:33:44.620 or he could have researched it and it'll be interesting to see if to your point mike if he went

01:33:51.340 there in the past looking for the perfect hideaway spot to do the exchange you know he may have

01:33:57.900 researched that spot well that's why i'm saying the you know the computer forensics once they get

01:34:02.560 into his computer it's going to be very interesting to see what he's been researching over the last six

01:34:08.640 months well what about the gps on the car can the car computer you know how it can tell it can tell

01:34:14.120 everything about you now it can tell if you were doing your mascara when the car crashed you can tell all

01:34:18.100 the stuff will it be able to tell you know prior rides and whether he stops it's an older car i don't

01:34:26.120 know if that car had the capabilities i haven't personally you know looked into that make model

01:34:30.380 to see but yet today uh you know the cars that i drive absolutely that car knows exactly where i've

01:34:36.380 been how long i've been there etc that's an older car so i don't know if that car had the capability

01:34:41.440 but i can guarantee you investigators are going to be looking into that oh my my car tells me when i

01:34:46.320 ovulate it's really uncomfortable um so let me flash forward to now he's back in pennsylvania and

01:34:56.140 we know that the fbi was watching him and we know the fbi was watching him when he did his cross-country

01:35:00.580 drive they say they were not behind those two traffic stops that in fact the reporting is again

01:35:06.560 citing howard blum that the fbi was like oh my god he got stopped by these two locals but that they

01:35:11.940 weren't behind it but that they were watching him by that point he gets back home to pennsylvania and

01:35:16.400 they see him throw his trash out at four in the morning in the neighbor's trash so what do you got

01:35:23.900 so they've got it they were watching him and so like what is it possible they they have the murder

01:35:31.200 weapon is it like if you're brian kohlberger what have you brought home that cannot be disposed of in

01:35:38.260 your own trash well you you said it you said it right there megan you know was he keeping trophies

01:35:48.580 and then he thought you know hey i better get rid of it he did a cost-benefit analysis 0.98

01:35:54.640 you know i got to get rid of these trophies you know i got to get rid of the weapon you may be exactly

01:36:00.520 right it's chilling this is i'll give you this howard blum's been the secret star of our

01:36:06.200 of our exchange and he ends one of his pieces uh for airmail as follows about the possible

01:36:11.960 motive he talks about the exuberance of these young girls you know we saw them on tape trying

01:36:19.500 to tell the cops oh sorry we had a party we'll be quieter they were totally respectful and he says

01:36:24.420 the following can you imagine looking at that wild night with those girls on the tape all the happy

01:36:30.920 frivolity from some hideout in the shadows and at the same time knowing deep in your dark heart that

01:36:36.820 you would never be a part of anything that exuberant that beautiful it would be hell a hell of unsatisfied

01:36:43.200 desire that could plunge someone deeper and deeper into a tormenting rage and envy that would be an

01:36:49.860 all-consuming sickness and in the end there would be no way out just the deed my god it's dark i mean

01:36:58.280 this is what you guys do you you deal in this kind of darkness for a living and try to find a way of

01:37:03.520 getting real answers i'll end with this your level of confidence on a scale of one to ten that they've

01:37:12.100 got the right guy and he'll be convicted let's go down the line phil 10 10 plus wow bill 10 mike

01:37:21.680 10 plus plus wow wow that's good to know that's very good you guys are the greatest let's get the

01:37:32.260 band back together really really enjoyed speaking with you and hearing all your expertise thank you

01:37:36.420 guys thank you thank you wow what a show i hope you love that as much as i did

01:37:42.280 thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no agenda and no fear

01:37:48.960 thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no

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The Megyn Kelly Show - February 02, 2023

Murdaugh's Deception, and Idaho Murders Suspect's Past, with Phil Houston, Bill Stanton, Mike Swain, and Anne Bremner ｜ Ep. 485

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