The Megyn Kelly Show - Nancy Guthrie Nest Camera Questions, Savannah Stalker Possibilities, and Bitcoin Rumblings, with FBI and Security Experts ｜ Ep. 1250

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00:01:00.500 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:02.420 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.180 Hey, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:13.940 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:15.480 What a crazy week in news it has been.

00:01:17.320 Well, we've been wall-to-wall Nancy Guthrie coverage.

00:01:20.680 A suspected shooter identifying as trans killed nine and wounded 25 in Canada.

00:01:26.320 They're actually referring to this person as a, what is it, a gun person.

00:01:33.840 They won't call him a gunman because he said he was trans. 0.99

00:01:39.340 This is, they're insane.

00:01:40.640 And in another story this morning, the FAA briefly shut down the El Paso Airport,

00:01:46.280 allegedly after Mexican cartel drones supposedly breached U.S. airspace.

00:01:52.780 At least that's what we're being told, though.

00:01:55.160 So many people have their doubts about what's actually happening there.

00:01:59.460 They're going to shut down a major U.S. airport and airspace for 10 days?

00:02:03.800 Like, on a minute's notice?

00:02:07.900 That's alarming.

00:02:09.820 After huge outcry, it's now back open.

00:02:12.080 We're going to be monitoring that.

00:02:13.480 But for now, there is a ton of breaking news.

00:02:16.180 I mean, overnight, it was insane.

00:02:17.680 I don't know about you.

00:02:18.120 I was up until about almost one following the news coverage.

00:02:21.360 And then we all set our alarms for AM update for 4 AM because we usually put that script

00:02:26.120 to bed before we go to sleep.

00:02:27.440 But we knew there'd be potential breaking news overnight.

00:02:29.860 So at 4, we hauled our butts out of bed.

00:02:31.800 For you guys, you could hear the difference in my normal voice versus my 4 AM voice.

00:02:36.360 But though, in fairness to myself, I was trying not to wake up my family.

00:02:39.340 As we updated the script to let you know that the person of interest that they had pulled

00:02:43.860 over or the, quote, subject that they'd been calling him had been released.

00:02:48.100 So there was a lot happening last night as they went down close to the Mexico border and

00:02:53.860 got this guy.

00:02:54.580 And then it turned out to be, we believe now, nothing.

00:02:58.420 They're saying that he has an alibi, that we heard his alibi, and it didn't seem all that

00:03:02.960 amazing.

00:03:03.400 Is it more likely that they just realized after talking to him they didn't have the

00:03:07.660 right guy?

00:03:08.140 And are we really just, like, doing this to people based on the fact that they look a

00:03:11.960 little like the guy?

00:03:13.540 Not sure what's happening there, but we're going to talk about it with our panel.

00:03:16.820 This is all in the search for Nancy Guthrie, an 84-year-old woman.

00:03:21.360 She's the mother of NBC host Savannah Guthrie, as you know by now, who may or may not still

00:03:25.640 be alive.

00:03:27.140 You know, many of us presume that the worst may have happened by now, given her heart issues,

00:03:32.600 given the fact that this was clearly a violent man who abducted her, and just given, you know,

00:03:37.860 playing the odds of this person who doesn't really appear to have negotiated at all or

00:03:43.660 at a minimum in good faith with the family, if you believe those ransom notes are from

00:03:48.160 him.

00:03:49.000 But she could still be alive.

00:03:51.160 We don't know, in fact, what happened to Nancy Guthrie.

00:03:54.720 And last night, there was a report for a minute that an 84-year-old, this is unconfirmed

00:03:59.040 online, had been taken to this hospital in Arizona via life flight.

00:04:04.020 And there was this hope where it was like, oh, my God, what if, what if, what if?

00:04:08.380 And then they quickly said, that's not her. 0.96

00:04:11.560 So you do get these periodic reminders that there's what you know and there's what you

00:04:16.840 think you know.

00:04:17.780 And we do not know the status of Nancy Guthrie.

00:04:22.440 You know, Savannah and family are hoping and praying and believe she's still alive.

00:04:26.780 And then there are many of us who are hoping and praying she's still alive, but believe

00:04:31.580 she's likely not, for those reasons I stated.

00:04:36.800 In any event, we do know that she was forcibly taken from her home.

00:04:39.860 In the early hours of last Sunday, two Sundays ago, that day, February 1st.

00:04:47.700 And that means she has not been seen for 11 days, not by anyone who cares about her.

00:04:53.260 We were live on the air together when we got those stunning photos yesterday and the videos

00:04:58.760 from the FBI in what is sure to be a game changer in this case, showing an armed man in a mask

00:05:06.340 approaching Nancy's home in an incredibly creepy-ass video.

00:05:11.740 So it seems the FBI is now taking an increased role in the investigation after the Pima County

00:05:17.600 Sheriff's Department did not appear to be making much progress.

00:05:20.480 We heard that sheriff told us that he had sent off the videotape, or there was a videotape

00:05:24.960 to send, but he had contacted the Nest camera company, which is Google, by the way, that's

00:05:29.360 who owns and makes Nest, saying, is there anything on here?

00:05:32.720 It's like, the camera's gone.

00:05:34.080 He said, it's not in our possession.

00:05:36.340 We have one, by the way.

00:05:37.400 We're going to get into it.

00:05:38.080 But here is what the Nest camera looks like.

00:05:40.820 And we're going to show you a demonstration that we did with this thing.

00:05:43.880 But he said, they're gone.

00:05:45.600 We don't have them.

00:05:46.180 So we believe the perpetrator took the Nest cams off of Nancy Guthrie's doors, plural,

00:05:52.800 front and back.

00:05:54.560 And he was telling us that that was kind of it, because Nancy Guthrie didn't pay for a recording

00:06:01.020 service.

00:06:02.080 And that meant there wasn't going to be a record.

00:06:04.400 He said the cameras record a couple, a little like some images, but they rewrite themselves

00:06:10.060 every hour or so when you don't pay for the recording service.

00:06:14.820 And this, of course, you know, she was taken, we believe, around 2.30 a.m.

00:06:18.540 Saturday night to Sunday, and they didn't find her missing until the next day at noon.

00:06:23.020 So would have been long overwritten.

00:06:25.080 But he said they had reached out to Google to find out, you know, could anything be recovered?

00:06:28.800 Then the FBI got involved and things stepped up significantly.

00:06:33.720 It does seem that the FBI got a warrant or put some pressure on Google.

00:06:38.440 We don't know.

00:06:39.580 Cash referred to like our private partners.

00:06:42.400 We worked with our private partners to get this done.

00:06:45.200 In any event, that's how they hit pay dirt.

00:06:48.760 And you can only imagine the guy whose job it was to actually cull through all the cached

00:06:54.560 images in the Google database of all the homes.

00:06:58.840 Maybe they can target it geographically.

00:07:00.520 Maybe he knew Tucson.

00:07:02.180 I don't know if you can get it down to a specific street, never mind a specific address, and try

00:07:07.820 to comb through all these like stored images.

00:07:09.800 We're told by one expert that what happens is when you delete, when like the Google service

00:07:14.620 is deleting Nancy Guthrie's images from 2.30 a.m. or 1.47 a.m. that night, it doesn't

00:07:24.000 mean it's totally gone.

00:07:25.000 It means it's marked for deletion, but it's not actually gone until it's actually overwritten

00:07:29.520 by something.

00:07:30.800 And it's possible just that piece of tape stored in the Google system had not yet been overwritten.

00:07:37.360 That's crazy to know how it works.

00:07:39.800 Um, in any event, here's FBI Director Cash Patel last night on Hannity telling us that

00:07:45.580 there are, quote, multiple persons of interest now.

00:07:50.060 Watch.

00:07:50.800 Sean, without, you know, polluting the investigation, I will say we have made substantial progress

00:07:56.680 in these last 36, 48 hours thanks to the technical capabilities of the FBI and our partnerships.

00:08:00.780 And I do believe we are looking at people who, as we say, are persons of interest.

00:08:06.140 But as you know, with any investigation, you are a person of interest until you're either

00:08:10.340 eliminated or you're actually found to be the culprit or the culprits involved.

00:08:14.060 And that's the stage we're at right now.

00:08:15.320 Multiple persons of interest.

00:08:18.240 That sounded promising.

00:08:19.420 And last night, a delivery man was detained right by the Mexico border on the Arizona side

00:08:26.260 as part of this investigation.

00:08:28.440 SWAT was there.

00:08:29.500 We told we were told a hostage rescue team was on scene, at least at least in Tucson.

00:08:35.460 I'm not sure whether they actually wound up going down to this area near the Mexico border.

00:08:40.520 But, you know, the reports of the SWAT team and the hostage rescue and then that report

00:08:44.420 unconfirmed of an 84-year-old woman in a life flight, a helicopter, and now multiple persons

00:08:50.080 of interest.

00:08:50.640 And boom, somebody's a subject.

00:08:53.120 That's how I referred to him.

00:08:54.060 A subject is being detained.

00:08:55.440 And they're searching his house.

00:08:56.760 And the reporters traveled immediately down.

00:09:00.140 It was about an hour south of where Nancy Guthrie lived.

00:09:02.940 But it appears very much that they had the wrong guy.

00:09:07.680 His world has now calmed down dramatically.

00:09:10.160 Law enforcement has moved on.

00:09:12.600 He was released after they say his alibi checked out.

00:09:17.560 Now, again, I don't totally understand.

00:09:19.200 I'm not sure I believe the alibi thing.

00:09:21.680 I'm guessing they just talked to him and realized they had the wrong guy.

00:09:24.480 But the alibi, we heard from his mother-in-law, Brian Enten, intrepid reporter that he is,

00:09:30.420 actually followed the cops down there, got the mother-in-law, Juanita, on tape on News

00:09:35.020 Nation.

00:09:35.400 I watched it live.

00:09:36.760 And Juanita said his alibi was he doesn't work, I think she said Thursday, Friday, Saturday,

00:09:44.040 or it was Friday, Saturday, Sunday nights, and he lives with her and her daughter and

00:09:49.360 that he was home.

00:09:50.900 That was the alibi.

00:09:51.920 So it's not exactly airtight.

00:09:55.300 I'm just going to guess, since they do appear to have entirely moved on from Carlos, that

00:10:00.060 there was something else that convinced them this was not their guy.

00:10:03.040 But this guy had his cage rattled last night.

00:10:05.000 He spoke to the media right after his release.

00:10:07.320 Watch.

00:10:08.240 How would you describe what happened to you?

00:10:10.780 Terrifying.

00:10:11.740 Something I didn't do for something.

00:10:13.700 I was being like, I felt like I was being kidnapped, bro.

00:10:16.280 They didn't tell me anything at the beginning.

00:10:17.760 I was detained the whole time.

00:10:18.980 That's what they told me.

00:10:20.160 Where were they holding you?

00:10:20.780 At the back of a car.

00:10:21.500 Back of a car.

00:10:21.660 At the Marana car, and then they moved me into a Pima County Sheriff.

00:10:24.560 Were you being questioned in the car?

00:10:26.260 At the Marana car, I was being questioned, but they only asked me for my first name, my

00:10:29.840 last name, my date of birth, and my social.

00:10:32.180 Okay.

00:10:32.920 What were they asking you about?

00:10:35.660 That were my whereabouts.

00:10:37.320 Okay.

00:10:37.600 Where do I work?

00:10:38.420 Where was I?

00:10:39.060 And all that.

00:10:39.620 But...

00:10:40.120 Are you ever up in Tucson?

00:10:41.420 Yeah.

00:10:41.720 I work in Tucson.

00:10:42.560 What do you do?

00:10:43.460 GLS.

00:10:43.960 Deliver packages.

00:10:44.940 Okay.

00:10:45.140 Do you think you might deliver the package to Nancy Guthrie's house?

00:10:47.580 I don't know.

00:10:48.420 Might have been a possibility.

00:10:49.880 I don't know.

00:10:51.760 Hmm.

00:10:53.060 By the way, Josefina, not Juanita, is the name of his mother-in-law.

00:10:56.600 So the search for Nancy Guthrie and whoever took her continues.

00:11:01.220 Now, it's been just about 24 hours exactly since they released those photos, and I guarantee

00:11:06.920 the tip lines are going nuts.

00:11:08.380 Let's not forget, there's been a $50,000 reward posted by the FBI for information that

00:11:12.900 leads to the finding of Nancy Guthrie and or the arrest of whomever took her.

00:11:17.560 And there's been some criticism of that number by some people saying it should be higher if

00:11:22.120 you want to truly incentivize somebody to turn in a bad guy.

00:11:26.480 And I get that argument.

00:11:27.880 I do.

00:11:28.340 I'm somewhat tempted by it.

00:11:29.940 But I think the general thinking is that if you go too high, you encourage all the nut 0.96

00:11:36.840 cases.

00:11:37.220 Like, they're just desperate to get money.

00:11:39.660 And so you, you know, maybe quadruple the number of tips coming in, but you quadruple

00:11:44.620 them in the FBI's experience with no-nothings who are just taking a shot at getting the money.

00:11:50.740 I don't know.

00:11:51.480 I don't know enough about it to say whether this is a smart strategy or not.

00:11:54.540 I am sure that Savannah has said, I'll pay what I need to pay in order to incentivize

00:11:59.900 the return of my mom.

00:12:00.940 And I'll bet you anything that she's had a lot of well-wishers.

00:12:03.340 I mean, I happen to know that she's dear friends with one of the richest families in New York,

00:12:07.880 and there is zero chance those people could, you know, didn't offer to help her.

00:12:12.520 I mean, even the six million would have, they would have not even been a rounding error for

00:12:16.400 them.

00:12:16.980 I'm sure, I'm sure they would have offered to help.

00:12:19.520 So it's got to be strategic, these decisions, not paying the ransom, though there's a question

00:12:25.300 about that that I'm going to get into right now, and or not raising the $50,000 reward

00:12:29.720 money.

00:12:30.660 Now, okay, on the ransom demands, because as you recall, there's not only the fact that

00:12:36.120 Nancy's missing, there's this separate and possibly related lane of someone demanding

00:12:42.400 ransom.

00:12:43.800 And this someone wrote to TMZ and two local Tucson news outlets, the same letter, we're

00:12:50.640 told by authorities, demanding a ransom, saying they have Nancy, she's okay, but they want

00:12:56.280 $4 million in Bitcoin if they had paid it by last Thursday.

00:13:02.820 When they didn't, they had said in advance, it's going to go up to $6 million, and the final

00:13:07.140 deadline is Monday, meaning two days ago, 5 p.m., Bitcoin.

00:13:11.580 You saw the family's pleas on camera saying, we understand, we want to hear from you, but

00:13:15.920 they never contacted the family.

00:13:17.080 They only contacted the media with this message, and the family begged for a direct message

00:13:21.420 or instructions or proof of life, none of which ever came.

00:13:25.560 Harvey Levin was on the air the other day saying maybe that second letter, which he did not

00:13:29.420 receive, it was only sent to one local news outlet, maybe it had proof of life.

00:13:33.420 It didn't.

00:13:34.540 That local news outlet's sister station reported, do we have the soundbite, Deb, from yesterday?

00:13:39.260 Can we bring it over?

00:13:41.320 Which is the sister station to that station, which I think is called Arizona Family, went

00:13:47.940 on the air and specifically made clear that this second note, which they did not describe

00:13:53.820 as a ransom demand because apparently didn't renew that demand, did not have proof of life

00:14:01.620 in there.

00:14:01.940 And it's one of the reasons why the Guthrie family was so forlorn, I am guessing, in their

00:14:08.280 message where the three of them came back on camera and just said, we understand, we have

00:14:14.020 your message, and give us back our mother so we can celebrate with her.

00:14:18.560 And so that, and we'll never have peace unless we can have this, we will pay.

00:14:25.720 So it seemed to be a new negotiation of maybe she's not okay, but we'll still take her.

00:14:33.200 Like we want, to me, it sounded like we'll take her back dead or alive and we will pay.

00:14:38.240 Um, this is all speculation because the authorities have not released the actual notes, even though

00:14:45.960 we're now past the deadline, which, you know, I query whether it's now time to release the

00:14:50.600 notes, um, in the same way that they released the Unabomber writings, uh, because they might

00:14:57.120 shed some light on who this is.

00:14:59.440 There might be somebody who recognizes a turn of phrase, et cetera, to say, oh yeah, I know

00:15:03.880 who this is, or I see a clue that you didn't see.

00:15:07.260 Do we have it, Deb?

00:15:09.540 Sorry.

00:15:10.040 Okay.

00:15:10.340 Nevermind.

00:15:10.800 We're going to move on.

00:15:12.340 Trust me when I tell you that the local station said there is no proof of life in the second

00:15:16.020 soundbite.

00:15:16.900 So TMZ's Harvey Levin is back on the air again this morning.

00:15:22.520 This time he says TMZ has received a letter from someone who says they know who the kidnapper

00:15:29.540 is and they want one Bitcoin, which is worth about $60,000 in exchange for giving up the

00:15:36.900 name.

00:15:37.640 So they want their own ransom for revealing who the kidnapper is.

00:15:44.160 Here's Harvey trying to explain on Fox.

00:15:46.920 So an hour and a half ago, we got a kind of a bizarre letter, uh, an email from somebody

00:15:53.740 who says they know who the kidnapper is and that they have tried reaching, uh, Savannah's

00:16:01.420 sister, Annie, and Savannah's brother, uh, to no avail.

00:16:05.740 And they said they want one Bitcoin sent to a Bitcoin address that we have confirmed is

00:16:14.500 active.

00:16:15.580 It's a real Bitcoin address.

00:16:17.480 Um, and, um, as they put it, time is more than relevant.

00:16:22.300 So we have no idea, um, whether this is real or not, but they are making a demand.

00:16:29.400 It's interesting that, you know, Bitcoins fluctuate in value.

00:16:34.040 Um, but it's around $56,000 now, one Bitcoin, which is about the amount, uh, that the, uh,

00:16:41.840 authorities are offering for information leading to the return of Nancy.

00:16:45.600 So I don't know if that aligns, but whoever sent this and they actually give a name, um,

00:16:52.360 that, um, and an email address, but whoever sent this is asking for around that amount,

00:16:59.180 uh, via Bitcoin.

00:17:01.680 So that person should be under arrest soon.

00:17:05.080 Like they're trying to extort, uh, whom the FBI, Harvey, TMZ in exchange for giving information

00:17:16.480 they should just give.

00:17:18.280 I don't know actually whether that's a crime or what that is, but it's despicable.

00:17:23.220 Um, and I'm, and Harvey said that he gave that information to the FBI.

00:17:27.760 So this person has given their name or a name and an email and a real Bitcoin address, um,

00:17:35.600 and saying time is more than relevant, which is a weird way of phrasing it.

00:17:39.000 That's not a thing.

00:17:40.020 Time is of the essence is the phrase time is more than relevant.

00:17:43.460 So I'm not sure this could be, it sounds like just another scammer.

00:17:46.580 So we'll see.

00:17:47.560 But Harvey also seemed to have new information about whether a ransom has been paid into the

00:17:54.380 Bitcoin account revealed in the first ransom letter to TMZ.

00:17:59.640 This is where things are getting interesting.

00:18:03.420 So with respect to Harvey, I think he's playing this whole thing too cute by half.

00:18:08.540 Okay.

00:18:09.020 Cause you know, he's lifting the dress up, but only so much.

00:18:11.720 And like, this is very important.

00:18:12.880 This life or death, death stuff.

00:18:14.620 Like, I'm not sure.

00:18:16.000 I think if I were in his position, I'd probably either be saying nothing or everything.

00:18:20.200 I mean, he's a member of the news media and I guess he's given agreements to law enforcement,

00:18:24.160 not to reveal like so much, just enough to titillate.

00:18:28.320 I'm not sure what's happening here, but take a listen.

00:18:32.380 Late last night, there was a Bitcoin address that had $6 million deposited in it.

00:18:38.660 I don't know if that's a real or a ruse, but I'm sure you know of it.

00:18:42.520 When you looked at that address, did it match what you saw in letter number one from several

00:18:48.960 days ago?

00:18:49.480 I am not comfortable commenting on this.

00:18:56.340 Okay.

00:18:57.040 So then it's possible that the Bitcoin address that was requested turned out to be this particular

00:19:04.960 one.

00:19:06.000 And that would seem...

00:19:07.020 I wouldn't read anything.

00:19:07.640 I wouldn't read anything into this.

00:19:09.500 Okay.

00:19:09.820 So the suggestion that money was paid may not necessarily be the case.

00:19:14.060 Is that what you're saying?

00:19:15.680 Correct.

00:19:16.120 Do you have any idea what's happening?

00:19:20.480 I don't.

00:19:21.500 I'm sure you're just as confused as I am.

00:19:24.120 And Harvey would not even comment on the report from local Tucson station, KGUN, that indeed

00:19:32.480 there had been activity in the Bitcoin account listed in that first ransom note, but that

00:19:38.480 it was less than $300, KGUN, which also received the same letter Harvey did, putting an actual

00:19:46.220 number on what was deposited into the Bitcoin account.

00:19:50.620 That again, this is not the guy demanding a Bitcoin to reveal the name of the alleged kidnapper.

00:19:57.540 This is possibly the actual kidnapper who wrote a real ransom note saying, I have Nancy, she's

00:20:04.340 okay, and I want $4 million or $6 million.

00:20:08.080 And Harvey revealed he saw activity in the account, but wouldn't say more.

00:20:12.400 KGUN, who also received that note, revealed we see activity in that account as well last

00:20:17.380 night, but it's less than $300 that's been deposited into the account.

00:20:23.320 Watch.

00:20:23.780 Here's Harvey.

00:20:24.260 This $300 that was deposited last night that you were talking about with Sean, has that

00:20:29.560 gone anywhere since that was reported last night by you?

00:20:33.920 I have never said an amount, and there is a reason I haven't said an amount, and I am

00:20:41.500 going to stick to that regardless of what anybody else has said.

00:20:45.680 There are reasons behind why I'm saying that, but I gave my word on something, and I don't

00:20:56.880 want to impede this in any way, and I'm going to stick to what I said, which is simply that

00:21:02.540 there was activity, and I'm not going to say more about what the activity is.

00:21:06.240 I respect that.

00:21:07.440 I don't want to do anything like that.

00:21:10.480 It's just one of the many bizarre wrinkles on this story.

00:21:13.320 So here to break it all down, including what the authorities might be doing as we speak,

00:21:17.300 are Jim Fitzgerald.

00:21:18.780 Fitz!

00:21:19.500 He's a former FBI supervisory special agent, forensic linguist, and co-host of the Cold Red

00:21:25.320 podcast, and back for more after her amazing debut on the Megyn Kelly show yesterday, Maureen

00:21:30.760 O'Connell, a 25-year-old veteran of the FBI and co-host of Best Case, Worst Case, along

00:21:37.260 with Mary Ellen O'Toole, who is with us today, another FBI veteran.

00:21:40.820 She's a criminal profiler who is now director of the forensic science program at George Mason

00:21:45.360 University.

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00:22:48.300 Welcome to you all.

00:22:50.240 So, like, you tell me what you think is happening with the Bitcoin account, where you have Harvey

00:22:57.360 saying, I see activity, but I'm not going to say what I see.

00:23:00.480 You have the local outlet saying, we see activity, and it's $300 that was deposited.

00:23:05.440 And then you have Harvey saying, I refuse to comment on the amount that went in there.

00:23:10.460 But there is a report of $6 million being transferred into a Bitcoin account last night.

00:23:20.520 Now, it has not been confirmed that it's the Bitcoin account.

00:23:24.180 But there is a report that $6 million was transferred into a Bitcoin account last night.

00:23:30.240 Harvey not shedding any light on it.

00:23:32.300 Jim, you want to take a shot, Fitz, on anything, you know, happening here?

00:23:37.140 Do you have any idea?

00:23:38.820 Well, first of all, I want to thank you for coining a new term for us profilers, quote,

00:23:43.420 creepy-ass video.

00:23:44.880 We're going to add that to our lexicon of assessments from now on. 0.86

00:23:50.200 And also, I'm aware of, and I'm going to answer your question, but I understand in the last

00:23:54.960 six months to a year, Netflix, when a series comes to them, the protagonist, someone in

00:23:59.720 the show, you know, has to, like, every half hour, summarize it for the viewers, because

00:24:04.680 they have ADHD, they're on their phone at the same time.

00:24:06.800 They have to summarize the facts of whether they're the real or fictional story they're

00:24:09.980 telling.

00:24:10.920 So if this thing ever goes to a series or movie, and I hope it does, and with a happy ending

00:24:15.820 with Mrs. Guthrie being, you know, fully recovered, there's going to be a lot of explanations.

00:24:20.660 But even listening to you for the last half hour, Megan, I'm still a bit confused about

00:24:25.420 all the Bitcoin stuff.

00:24:26.660 But the important part is, you know, we're on the outside.

00:24:29.880 We're hearing truncated and partial versions of everything that the FBI knows for fact.

00:24:36.120 It doesn't mean by fact they have all the answers to it, but they have a lot more pieces

00:24:40.340 of their puzzle put together than we do.

00:24:42.440 And they have experts full time looking at this Bitcoin stuff, which I'm learning a lot

00:24:46.580 more, you know, in the last few days about how that whole crypto currency concept even

00:24:52.100 works.

00:24:52.900 It seems like it is traceable when people start removing money, but not up until that point.

00:24:57.320 So, and the FBI has ways of doing it.

00:24:59.440 So there's a lot of, you know, jetsam and floatsam going around here in this case.

00:25:04.780 I think the FBI, again, they're going to have this segmented, like I said before, on this

00:25:09.340 task force.

00:25:09.860 There are multiple squads or units set up and they're all, I guarantee you there's a

00:25:14.380 Bitcoin squad.

00:25:16.980 They're just focusing on this part of it.

00:25:18.920 There's someone else just focusing on the email address of these alleged ransom communications

00:25:24.300 that came in.

00:25:25.220 And of course, others with the family, others with the material now on this video.

00:25:28.960 I think the prime aspect of the investigators at this point, they're looking at everything

00:25:33.380 we just said, but they're going to focus on the video from yesterday.

00:25:36.900 That is a treasure trove of visual information, but also behavioral.

00:25:42.380 And we get a little bit into, you know, down the line, what folks should be looking for.

00:25:45.700 Well, wait a second, because I do want to talk about the video, but the reason I want

00:25:48.920 to stay on the Bitcoin, Jim, and the reason I went to you first is yesterday we talked about

00:25:52.880 tickling the wire.

00:25:53.580 And if you tell me whether that $300 deposited, if that's what it is, KGUN is saying it's

00:26:00.340 300 bucks.

00:26:01.140 Harvey's saying, I'm not going to say because I told people I wouldn't say.

00:26:04.380 So to me, the way it reads to me as a reporter is Harvey agreed not to reveal any specific

00:26:10.360 ins and outs of the Bitcoin account, but KGUN apparently did not agree to that.

00:26:14.920 And they're telling us that what was deposited into the bad guy, and this may or may not be

00:26:19.880 the kidnapper, but it's definitely the ransom demander, they're saying it was a $300 deposit.

00:26:24.780 And you tell me whether that would be something the FBI would do to see maybe what happens

00:26:29.800 is when there's a deposit in your Bitcoin account, you get an alert, you don't know

00:26:34.000 how much it is, but you click on something that makes you identifiable, that makes you trackable

00:26:40.920 now to the FBI into the first thing I thought was you're tickling the wire thing. 0.67

00:26:45.660 Yeah.

00:26:45.740 And I brought that term up the other day with you, and I appreciate you bringing it out

00:26:48.760 here again.

00:26:49.260 That is something that's possible here.

00:26:50.980 It's being and what I've said in so many words are certainly intimated.

00:26:56.380 And it's probably been happening all along, but doing things not just reactively on the

00:27:00.420 part of the family and the FBI, but proactively.

00:27:03.480 And if it is this $300 or whatever the amount may be somehow going into this account as a as

00:27:08.880 a test deposit or however they would look at it, that would make perfect sense.

00:27:13.220 We're only getting that reported second, and we'll say that from TMZ.

00:27:18.000 So we don't know for a fact that that's actually what happened.

00:27:20.700 But it certainly wouldn't surprise me if that's something the FBI is doing to generate some

00:27:25.260 sort of activity somehow.

00:27:27.860 But also, even with this video being released, we know that video person is the abductor.

00:27:33.060 Why aren't there more proofs of life being put out there or even requested?

00:27:36.940 So a lot of stuff going on here.

00:27:39.360 And the Bitcoin part of it may wind up resolving this matter, but I still think it's going to

00:27:44.000 be other more gumshoe type work that we can talk about later.

00:27:47.920 I mean, you tell me, Maureen, whether you think that's the FBI, because who else would

00:27:51.660 be putting $300?

00:27:52.700 Nobody has that Bitcoin address other than the person who wrote it demanding $6 million,

00:27:58.380 law enforcement, and now three news organizations.

00:28:02.240 And it's not going to be the three news organizations making it, but they would not mess with any

00:28:06.260 sort of thing around this, I'm sure.

00:28:08.940 So it's got to be the FBI, does it not?

00:28:13.600 Well, I agree.

00:28:14.480 There's a good chance it's the FBI.

00:28:16.600 And my understanding is with a Bitcoin account or Bitcoin wallet, you don't always get alerts

00:28:23.420 unless you have a service that provides alerts and you have, in fact, signed up for those

00:28:29.660 alerts, there would really be no way to tell that unless you put money in, fingers crossed,

00:28:35.980 let's hope that whoever this person is does exactly what you said, and I'm just going to

00:28:40.340 log in and see if it's $6 million or $300, you know?

00:28:45.860 So I think it is a way to, you know, what we've seen here over and over in many different ways

00:28:52.660 in all, on down all different kinds of lanes is attempts to open the lines of communication

00:28:58.920 between the family and law enforcement as one unit and the perpetrators of both of these crimes.

00:29:08.860 Well, here's the other thing.

00:29:10.860 What if it's not $300?

00:29:13.240 What if KGUN is wrong?

00:29:16.500 And what if this $6 million transfer in Bitcoin that's been documented, and we don't know whether

00:29:25.240 this was deposited into the Bitcoin account, what if they did pay?

00:29:30.320 What if they paid the ransom after the deadline, given how hot this case got yesterday, the prospect

00:29:37.300 of, oh my God, now we see there is a man for sure.

00:29:40.400 He's out there.

00:29:41.180 He's panicked.

00:29:41.780 We're going to give him his money as like, because we talked last, when we hung up yesterday

00:29:47.200 and we said goodbye to each other, now that this guy's face is everywhere, albeit behind

00:29:51.360 a mask, what's he going to do?

00:29:52.420 Is he going to panic?

00:29:53.520 Is Nancy Guthrie, if she's still alive, in greater danger right now?

00:29:57.240 And I just wonder whether if I'm the Guthrie family, at that point, I say, I'll pay it, put

00:30:03.320 it in the account.

00:30:04.160 I don't care.

00:30:04.700 It's a small price to me, especially with all these rich friends and Savannah's rich too.

00:30:08.180 Um, I'm going to pay it and I don't care whether it's a fraudster.

00:30:13.100 It's a, it's an insurance policy.

00:30:14.600 I mean, that does that, how does that grab you, Maureen?

00:30:17.460 I agree.

00:30:18.180 And when you think of how we felt yesterday, all of us collectively, and I mean, I'm sure

00:30:23.620 the family, law enforcement for sure.

00:30:26.220 We're all of us watching those videos live coming on and you're saying, hey, there's

00:30:30.520 another one.

00:30:30.960 There's another one.

00:30:31.700 What was happening?

00:30:32.780 Our adrenaline levels were just rushing.

00:30:35.860 Our, our, our veins were surging with adrenaline.

00:30:38.220 And so were those in law enforcement.

00:30:40.420 Now they've got a guy who's, you know, who they're looking at, whose phone pinged in the

00:30:44.820 area at one point or another.

00:30:46.300 And, you know, so the Guthrie's were feeling the exact same thing.

00:30:51.140 They were all feeling this rush of, of something's got to be done.

00:30:55.960 You know, I mean, your brain screams that in your head.

00:30:58.640 So I could easily see a scenario where they would in fact pay that money just because they

00:31:04.600 got caught up in the emotion that so many of us were trying to just slow it down, simmer

00:31:11.040 down, but you don't have that luxury when it's your loved one.

00:31:15.900 And I can also see why they wouldn't want it publicized if they did pay.

00:31:20.240 Because whenever you pay the ransom, you're basically inviting more kidnappings.

00:31:25.720 I mean, there would be pushback from, from many to pay it because in a way you endanger

00:31:31.660 others who are in the public eye and their family.

00:31:34.920 It's not your fault, but paying the ransom does have the unfortunate side effect of endangering

00:31:40.220 others because it rewards terrible behavior, terrible criminal behavior.

00:31:45.180 Mary Ellen, you're an expert in trying to figure out the profiles of these people who do this.

00:31:51.640 And I wonder now, having heard, we don't know whether the ransom notes, for short form,

00:31:57.420 that's what we're calling them, are in fact from the abductor.

00:32:01.720 We do know there's an abductor beyond doubt now.

00:32:04.820 I mean, we have his picture.

00:32:06.060 But having heard what's in the ransom notes, which Harvey Levin has been repeatedly describing

00:32:10.600 as from someone who is intelligent, that they are well-written, that there are no grammatical

00:32:15.420 errors.

00:32:16.580 And then you see this guy yesterday who like saunters up to the nest cam, doesn't seem to

00:32:24.060 have a clear plan, kind of messes with it a little with his gloved hand.

00:32:28.060 That doesn't work.

00:32:28.960 It doesn't come off.

00:32:29.780 Like he hasn't thought about it prior to getting there, then tries to cover it up with vegetation.

00:32:35.180 I don't, are these two things consistent in your mind?

00:32:40.580 And have you been thinking at all about a profile for this guy who took her?

00:32:45.420 So that's a great question.

00:32:48.160 I think it's possible it could be the same person.

00:32:51.240 The fact that he walked up there and what was really striking to me, because it's hard

00:32:57.040 to know, is this a really good writer?

00:32:58.980 Is this someone who's really articulate when he puts pen to paper?

00:33:01.780 But the comfort level that he seemed to show, at least in my opinion, he was very casual.

00:33:09.200 He didn't seem to be nervous.

00:33:12.480 He just seemed to walk up and to be comfortable, that knowing that within moments, he was going

00:33:20.880 to get into the home and commit one of the most violent crimes we know of, which is kidnapping.

00:33:26.400 And you did not see if he was feeling stress, if he was feeling anxiety, it didn't come through

00:33:34.400 in his behavior.

00:33:35.680 And I thought that was very interesting.

00:33:37.500 That could be part of his personality makeup.

00:33:40.660 It could also be part of the fact that he's thought this through, and there's a certain

00:33:45.820 amount of planning and preparation that he went through.

00:33:48.660 Now, whether or not we can extrapolate that and say, he's also a good writer, he's not

00:33:56.020 a good writer.

00:33:56.740 I think what we could say is that this is someone who probably is fairly manipulative, someone

00:34:03.820 that lacks the ability to empathize with the victim and what he's about to do.

00:34:10.660 So would there be a willingness on his part to send those notes about the ransom that

00:34:17.500 would be extremely painful to the family as another form of just extreme violence towards

00:34:24.880 the family or extreme cruel treatment?

00:34:27.160 I could see that happening, but I'm not at the point right now that I'd say that they

00:34:32.480 were, he's one in the same or totally different.

00:34:36.860 Can we look at this and say, and I know Fitz, you do the same kind of work.

00:34:40.660 Can we look at this and say, this guy's a sociopath because he's so calm or you can't

00:34:45.340 glean such a thing from doorbell camera tape?

00:34:48.980 Yeah.

00:34:49.100 And I'm hesitant to do psych evals, you know, without having sit down with the person, I'm

00:34:53.260 not a psychologist, by the way, nor would I try to, but we can certainly render opinions

00:34:57.660 in terms of indications of some sort of mental instability, whether diagnosable or not.

00:35:03.400 And I mentioned yesterday, you know, this guy may be on the psychopath scale somewhere,

00:35:09.240 psychopathy scale, uh, and in, in terms of his narcissism, uh, lack of, uh, empathy, which

00:35:17.060 was, which I mentioned yesterday and sympathy towards other.

00:35:19.980 And this guy is just like, uh, he gets focused on his particular mission at hand.

00:35:24.500 And I said, you know, since last week, this person's mission oriented, the implementation

00:35:28.920 didn't look all that pretty when we finally saw how it was undertaken, but he, you know,

00:35:33.400 he knew how to get there.

00:35:34.160 He knew basically what to do to get in the door with a successful abduction, not a successful

00:35:39.260 kidnapping so far, as far as we know, we'll talk more about the 6 million.

00:35:44.500 So, uh, yeah, the psych eval on someone like this, I'm always hesitant to do that.

00:35:47.900 I also don't want to give down the line defense attorneys, any kind of, uh, you know, potential

00:35:52.300 defense there from, you know, this profiler Fitzgerald guy who said this early on.

00:35:56.540 So, uh, indicators of some sort of mental health issues, very possible, but I'm, I'm not prepared

00:36:01.600 to go officially, nor would I, nor could I do it, any kind of a psych eval, but, uh, people

00:36:06.660 are going to know this type of behavior.

00:36:08.100 He's going to have an, he's going to be an oddball of some sort, another clinical term I'll

00:36:12.160 use here.

00:36:12.620 But, uh, and, and most importantly, and we'll get more into this later, but there's been

00:36:16.820 a behavioral modification in the last week and a half with this guy, free offense, post

00:36:22.020 offense, and even more post video.

00:36:24.500 And that's what I like to talk about at some point down the line here with to do, uh, Megan.

00:36:29.340 Because he's in a panic now.

00:36:30.900 Yes.

00:36:32.680 This happened, which you didn't plan on.

00:36:34.180 His face, his face is everywhere.

00:36:37.000 I mean, I wonder how the arrest, not the arrest, but the, the detainment of the wrong guy,

00:36:42.620 last night affects the actual perp, right?

00:36:47.280 He's he, there had to be a serious moment of panic when those pictures hit.

00:36:50.760 And then they're, they've stopped what they say is the wrong guy and swats at his house

00:36:55.920 and so on.

00:36:57.360 That's gotta be somewhat reassuring.

00:36:59.160 They don't have you yet.

00:37:00.560 You've got time to get out of town to, I don't stay underground.

00:37:05.400 I'm not sure.

00:37:06.280 Like what, what would you three think the perp would do in the wake of the wrong guy?

00:37:12.000 If I could just start here and I'll let the other folks talk, but I think the term person

00:37:16.420 of interest was coined during the Atlanta Olympic bombings.

00:37:19.960 At least I never heard that term before.

00:37:21.960 It's not really a legal term.

00:37:23.480 It's less than suspect or, or subject somewhere in the middle there.

00:37:26.820 And, uh, and that was for Richard Jewell.

00:37:29.960 And, uh, he went through hell, uh, with the FBI and the media back then involving lawsuits.

00:37:36.380 I, I was there doing some, uh, consulting at the time, but I had nothing to do with anything

00:37:41.380 with Richard Jewell interviews.

00:37:42.780 And then years, you know, uh, a year or two later, we found out it was Eric Rudolph was the

00:37:47.380 Olympic bomber.

00:37:48.000 And, uh, we always, you know, commented among ourselves that how relieved he must've been

00:37:53.180 that first few months, the actual bomber of the, of the Olympics had killed two people.

00:37:58.280 He had, here's a security guard, the one being accused.

00:38:01.020 So I'm just bringing in, you know, cases I've worked in the past.

00:38:04.020 So yeah, the real kidnapper, the guy on the screen, uh, the video and, you know, ostensibly

00:38:09.220 if there's kidnappers out there, they're saying, Oh good, let them stop someone else and get

00:38:12.780 him.

00:38:12.980 But they're also going to know, I would think that he's going to be ruled in or ruled out

00:38:16.580 pretty quickly.

00:38:17.560 And fortunately, this is not a Richard Jewell situation.

00:38:19.920 He was ruled out within a few hours and, uh, and let go.

00:38:22.880 And now he's getting his interviews.

00:38:24.360 So, uh, but my moment of relief perhaps for the guy on the video, but now he's back scared

00:38:29.960 again and his behavior is still sort of erratic based on the baseline of what people knew

00:38:34.720 him from before.

00:38:36.720 Here's the other question I have for you guys, and you can comment on that too.

00:38:39.520 But Maureen, what about the fact that there were tons of reports last night that SWAT

00:38:45.280 was there, hostage rescue was there, and that officials, I'm, I don't know if it was FBI

00:38:50.520 or local sheriffs, but cops were all over yet again, Annie Guthrie's property in the back

00:38:58.720 and all over with her neighbors going door to door.

00:39:02.140 Annie Guthrie, not Nancy Guthrie's, Annie Guthrie's where she had her dinner that night,

00:39:07.820 but from whose house we are told by Annie and Tomas, she was returned, that she did

00:39:13.480 not stay overnight there, that they brought her back home, that Tomas, according to the

00:39:16.760 sheriff, brought her back home at 948 where the garage door went up, 950 it went down.

00:39:22.460 So you tell me why law enforcement was flooding the field around Annie Guthrie's home last night.

00:39:29.860 I've said it before.

00:39:30.720 I've done a lot of rollback warrants on locations.

00:39:34.140 I have never, ever even heard of anyone going back four or five times.

00:39:38.480 I believe this is the fifth time last night.

00:39:41.400 It's got to do with new information coming in.

00:39:44.020 And the good sign, the good part of this, of them going back there, is they obviously are

00:39:49.940 receiving more information that they feel is actionable.

00:39:53.140 And you have to, you know, we have to look into it.

00:39:57.040 It keeps pointing back in the same direction.

00:40:00.980 Now, the fact that we detained the wrong person last night and the fact that they let him go

00:40:06.960 quickly is a good sign.

00:40:08.420 They had a number of data points.

00:40:10.000 He didn't fit in.

00:40:11.820 He is a driver.

00:40:12.880 We have spoken from the very beginning that it was someone that was associated with the

00:40:17.200 house or crossed paths with Nancy in some way, shape or form.

00:40:21.100 And this person on his phone delivered a package, probably a short period of time before this

00:40:27.780 event occurred.

00:40:29.220 And so he's in the crosshairs.

00:40:31.640 However, I think the other offenders did not bring their phones or we would know who they

00:40:38.020 are by now.

00:40:38.920 They didn't have their phones in their cars.

00:40:41.060 So we don't know who was exactly in the area roaming around, you know, because sometimes

00:40:46.400 a person may not have the phone in their pocket or on their person, but they may have

00:40:51.080 it in their car.

00:40:51.840 No, their phones were left at home, whoever did this, or they were secreted in another

00:40:57.120 more interesting way, just similar to the Brown shooter.

00:41:00.900 I think with the Brown shooter and also with Koberger, people learned a lot because of all

00:41:08.160 the coverage and because of all the intense scrutiny of how are things done?

00:41:12.620 How can you avoid this? 1.00

00:41:13.720 He was stupid because he did this. 1.00

00:41:15.600 These people pay attention to this and they watch this and they feel they've learned from 1.00

00:41:19.180 it and they all think they're smarter than everyone else and they're not.

00:41:22.460 But the fact that they keep going back to this same location every single time, these

00:41:28.540 are oftentimes a conspiracy kidnappings of three people, two, three people as a general

00:41:35.300 rule.

00:41:35.780 And I believe we can ask Fitz and Mary if that's what they believe, but all the ones we've worked,

00:41:43.300 they've been like three people involved.

00:41:45.320 So this person could have just been one of the people they thought might have been involved,

00:41:49.940 but it hasn't.

00:41:51.240 So the refocusing has begun and it's intense.

00:41:54.820 And I don't think that that was the only person they had that they were looking at.

00:41:59.800 Well, if no, it's not because Cash said persons of interest and he's not a dope.

00:42:04.620 He wouldn't have used the plural if he didn't mean it.

00:42:07.160 But Mary Ellen, if you said to me, there's been a school shooting and I know nothing about

00:42:13.880 who did it and you asked me for the profile, the likely profile of the shooter.

00:42:17.460 I mean, these days I'd say it's somebody, it's a male pretending to be a female on some

00:42:22.560 sort of drugs.

00:42:23.420 I mean, there's just like been such an elevation of people claiming to be trans doing the shootings.

00:42:27.700 But it's either that I'd say, or it's a white male between the ages of 19 and 26 who's a

00:42:36.820 loner, who's been going to the shooting range, who's probably done some violent sketches or

00:42:42.620 social media, who'd spend a lot of time gaming potentially.

00:42:46.760 I mean, we know, like it is possible even for somebody like me, who's not as skilled as

00:42:51.340 you are to come up with a profile.

00:42:52.800 But what you say, who kidnaps an 84-year-old woman in the dead of night?

00:42:59.520 And now you actually have the blessing of a picture of him doing part of the crime.

00:43:04.620 What does that profile look like?

00:43:07.060 Well, when you're talking about cases of the shootings from the time of Columbine, which

00:43:13.760 was 1999, we've had really thousands of shootings.

00:43:18.000 That's a lot of data where we can now comfortably say, this is the kind of person that we're

00:43:25.120 looking at.

00:43:25.820 This is, these are the pre-offense behaviors.

00:43:28.340 But when it comes to kidnappings, especially like this, and all three of us have worked

00:43:32.740 these kinds of cases or cases involving kidnappings that were part of like a serial murder investigation.

00:43:40.060 This case itself is an outlier.

00:43:45.140 So it's very difficult to say, well, based on all the other cases similar to this, this

00:43:51.840 is probably what we're looking at.

00:43:53.760 And that's always been the challenge when you're trying to develop sort of a, you know, a profile

00:43:59.260 of an individual because these just are extremely rare cases.

00:44:04.100 And so I think as Jim and Maureen were both pointing out, you go back and you take a look

00:44:09.880 at how the crime was constructed and how the offender accessed the victim.

00:44:15.660 And Jim and I used to sit around in the conference room at Quantico.

00:44:20.480 And one of the first things that we did, we would look at victimology.

00:44:24.040 We didn't have that, those numbers of cases to go back and say nine times out of 10, what

00:44:29.800 was it?

00:44:30.240 So we would have to go back and look at, for example, the victimologies.

00:44:33.940 The first thing that we looked at, is this a high or low risk victim?

00:44:38.560 Is this a victim where the crime scene was very low risk?

00:44:42.160 And Nancy is a very low risk victim.

00:44:44.640 She didn't live a criminal lifestyle and she was victimized in her own home, which was in 0.98

00:44:49.240 a nice neighborhood with people around her.

00:44:51.700 So we're basically starting from scratch to identify what we think will, information that

00:44:59.100 will tell us something about this offender.

00:45:02.000 And then those videos last night were insight into the offender.

00:45:06.660 So we add that to the profile as well.

00:45:10.380 But again, going back and saying, this is what the data says, this is what the research says.

00:45:15.740 We really don't have that because these cases fortunately don't occur that often.

00:45:20.800 So we're back to really building almost an original profile.

00:45:24.820 Do you guys think that they can do the FBI?

00:45:30.180 Because I've heard two different experts now, former FBI both, on the issue of facial recognition,

00:45:36.060 notwithstanding the fact that he has a mask on.

00:45:38.420 And one guy said, we ran it on AM update.

00:45:40.680 Absolutely.

00:45:41.240 It can still be done even though he's got the mask on.

00:45:44.300 And then there was another guy who gave an interview to Ashley Banfield saying, I don't

00:45:48.400 think so.

00:45:49.040 Not with that mask on.

00:45:51.020 It's going to be too difficult.

00:45:51.960 Facial recognition does depend on angles and things like that.

00:45:56.520 And the iris too.

00:45:57.860 And you can see this guy's irises sort of, but they're reflected with light.

00:46:01.820 So you can't really see them.

00:46:03.860 Do you have any idea, any of you, whether the FBI's facial recognition technology is

00:46:09.400 likely to produce out some names?

00:46:12.960 They're working on it right now.

00:46:14.420 I have no doubt.

00:46:15.180 They're contacting different software companies who have AI capabilities.

00:46:18.960 And they're doing their best with that.

00:46:21.740 Long before I was on the Unabombed test force, 1987, the biggest break in that case, at that

00:46:27.300 point, nine years old from the first bombing, was the now iconic composite sketch of the

00:46:35.700 Unabomber.

00:46:36.480 And that's all they had for evidence.

00:46:37.860 He went dark for then six years after that, then came back in 93, started bombing again and 0.77

00:46:43.700 writing to the New York Times, et cetera.

00:46:45.300 So that was a big deal then was AI didn't even exist.

00:46:49.640 Facial recognition software didn't exist.

00:46:51.800 But that composite really went nowhere.

00:46:54.120 You can ask yourself, you can look at Ted Kaczynski eventually arrested in the composite.

00:46:58.180 Maybe, maybe not.

00:46:59.140 Even wrote in his journal, he put wads of gum like in his cheeks and all to make himself

00:47:03.120 look a little bit heftier, at least his face.

00:47:05.220 And of course, the hoodie and the hair had combed down.

00:47:08.140 So and I'm not suggesting the person in this video.

00:47:11.220 He was brilliant, though.

00:47:12.780 Ted was brilliant.

00:47:13.540 This guy, this guy, which with the vegetation, he's not brilliant.

00:47:17.000 Yeah, I'm not comparing the two on levels of brilliance.

00:47:19.960 Kaczynski got away with it for 17 years.

00:47:22.240 This guy is up to about 10 days so far, give or take.

00:47:25.200 So and this video being released was a mistake on his part, whether he had information, there

00:47:31.700 was no subscription. 0.97

00:47:32.760 So he was safe, although he's still trying to hide the camera with these darn flowers, 0.99

00:47:37.080 whatever the hell that means. 0.98

00:47:37.920 Then it eventually takes it off.

00:47:40.020 He may have had inside information from somewhere that with no subscription, there will never

00:47:44.340 be any video.

00:47:45.200 This surprised him like it did most of us yesterday.

00:47:48.020 In real time, I was getting surprised, Megan, as you were putting these these pictures out.

00:47:52.600 And then we analyzed them accordingly.

00:47:54.400 So this definitely altered his behavior.

00:47:56.420 And I'll let the other folks here, you know, about the AI facial recognition software.

00:48:00.800 Where it's it's out there and there's probably people claiming they can do something with

00:48:05.000 it.

00:48:05.380 They're going to come up with maybe 10 or 12 different, we'll call them composites of what

00:48:09.740 this guy looks like under the mask.

00:48:11.520 And maybe one of them.

00:48:13.300 I feel like you can't you can see sort of what he looks like.

00:48:16.800 Like, let's put the pictures back on the board.

00:48:19.640 I what I see is somebody with a very round head, like a super round head.

00:48:24.040 Um, maybe we can get like more of the the full shot of him.

00:48:29.580 Um, he's got large eyes.

00:48:31.680 They don't look hooded to me, you know, like a bunch of age has set in or like an Asian 0.97

00:48:37.300 ethnicity.

00:48:38.260 They look pretty open.

00:48:39.480 His eyes.

00:48:40.380 He's got what appear to be pronounced eyebrows.

00:48:42.700 Some people have focused on how they almost look like women's eyebrows, like overly plucked.

00:48:46.420 But that could also be just his face mask and the way it's making them look.

00:48:51.720 So I'm not sure about the eyebrows.

00:48:53.260 Um, he also seems to have stick out ears.

00:48:56.780 Um, if you see like the, the more the side shot, his ears, some people's, if I put out

00:49:02.460 that thing over my head, my ear, you wouldn't even see my ears there.

00:49:05.540 My ears are pretty flat to my head, but his aren't.

00:49:08.880 So that's interesting to me.

00:49:10.500 He definitely has, or at least wore fake facial hair or it's real facial hair.

00:49:16.660 But I mean, I imagine he wasn't banking on getting seen on camera, but in any event, he appears

00:49:21.560 to have a mustache and either a soul patch or actual facial hair down below.

00:49:26.720 And again, as we said yesterday, he appears to be like kind of stocky, not, not skinny.

00:49:33.460 That's for sure.

00:49:34.620 And either white or Hispanic. 0.61

00:49:36.180 I think that's my guess.

00:49:37.840 I don't know, Maureen.

00:49:38.440 I feel like there's a fair amount there to go off.

00:49:40.100 There is so much information there.

00:49:41.600 And I agree with you 100% on the eyebrows.

00:49:44.900 This is a, this is a guy who probably without this, um, um, baklava or ski cap, you would

00:49:52.740 say he had beautiful dark eyes and just eyebrows that, that frame his, his eyes nicely.

00:49:59.520 Um, it's the stitching around and pardon me while I look at this photo I have on my phone

00:50:04.780 so I can blow it up a little more.

00:50:06.560 But if you look at the, um, the eye openings on this mask, it's got about a quarter in it,

00:50:13.620 quarter inch stitch all the way around.

00:50:15.660 And the reason his eyebrows look as if they're beautifully groomed is because that stitching

00:50:22.320 cuts off all the top where, where his eyebrows would be relatively unruly.

00:50:26.720 And, you know, it only shows just that perfect arc, so to speak.

00:50:31.300 He does have large eyes, but the closeup photo of his face that you see where you can see the

00:50:37.540 lips and the upper, um, the mustache or the hair on his, on his face, those lips are very,

00:50:44.080 very distinctive.

00:50:46.560 If, if, if most of us were doing any type of work where we're handling something, you

00:50:51.820 know, most of us like make some kind of a face or something, look at how calm he is.

00:50:56.920 He's about to break into an 84 year old woman's home and he's sauntering around like he works 0.99

00:51:03.240 there.

00:51:04.600 He's just as calm as he is.

00:51:06.220 He is so calm.

00:51:07.820 It's very telling because I swear it's like, as is this like his job because he's approaching

00:51:13.260 it like I've done this many times.

00:51:14.880 Oh, the nest camera, I'll try to cover it up or maybe I won't.

00:51:18.740 I don't know.

00:51:19.760 I've got my backpack with, you know, I've got my gun on me.

00:51:23.680 Some tool was used against, could have just been fists against his 84 year old victim

00:51:27.720 inside.

00:51:28.300 But man, he's like, this is, I, I have more energy sitting down to this desk to do the

00:51:33.780 show every day than this guy appeared to have.

00:51:36.800 Stand by.

00:51:37.120 We have to take a quick break.

00:51:38.020 We're coming back on the opposite side.

00:51:39.200 And I'm going to show you our nest camera experience, experiment, but I want to get

00:51:43.000 your thoughts on his calm demeanor.

00:51:44.560 We'll be right back.

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00:53:57.320 Back with me now, three powerhouses formerly of the FBI, Jim Fitz, Fitzgerald, Maureen O'Connell,

00:54:03.000 and Mary Ellen O'Toole. 0.80

00:54:05.020 So we were talking before the break about facial recognition and about this guy and his demeanor

00:54:10.360 of the, we're live on YouTube today, which we're not normally when we do the show.

00:54:14.340 We're not live normally only on SiriusXM, but we went live on YouTube for today's show

00:54:18.020 because there's so much going on.

00:54:19.080 And the folks in the chat have lots of thoughts.

00:54:21.520 And one of the questions that's getting debated is, was the guy that we see on this camera

00:54:26.440 a decoy?

00:54:27.640 And was the real action happening behind the house at the back door?

00:54:32.480 And the reason he's so nonchalant is he's like, my buddy's back there.

00:54:36.760 My buddy's got this.

00:54:37.860 And the other possibility people are debating is whether there's any way he had already committed

00:54:43.380 the crime here.

00:54:44.220 And this was, this was just about trying to get the camera down as opposed to get into

00:54:51.320 the home.

00:54:52.120 I mean, I suppose we can't tell that from looking at the doorbell camera, but anyone have a thought

00:54:57.960 on whether the odds that this guy was just the decoy at the front.

00:55:01.420 We'll start with that one.

00:55:03.200 I would say if he was the decoy from the front, you're still going to and likely see a lot of

00:55:12.960 anxiety in, in most people because he's now part of this crime.

00:55:18.080 If he is the person in the back who's actually committing the crime, or he's already committed

00:55:24.960 the crime, and now he's just fiddling around with the cameras, he knows what he's done.

00:55:30.320 You're going to see a lot of anxiety.

00:55:32.500 I think the absence of a lot of anxiety and nervousness is profound here.

00:55:39.320 And Jim, you touched on it earlier.

00:55:41.120 I think it is profound.

00:55:42.240 And when you are about to commit or be a part of an extremely violent crime, and you're just

00:55:50.720 walking around casually, whether you're the decoy, or whether you've come back to alter

00:55:55.460 the camera, and you can behave like that, that's how you behave in your non-criminal everyday

00:56:01.160 life.

00:56:01.740 And that speaks to his personality.

00:56:04.440 And I think that's what we want people to know about him, along with the facial recognition.

00:56:12.240 They understand that.

00:56:13.440 They have seen that.

00:56:14.340 They could have lived with him, or lived next door to him.

00:56:18.120 That is profound.

00:56:20.600 I'm thinking about the movie Free Solo, and the guy who climbs the mountains and doesn't

00:56:27.400 have ropes, and at great risk to himself, and how he just has a different adrenaline gland

00:56:33.660 than the rest of us.

00:56:34.620 They actually studied him.

00:56:35.860 He just doesn't get the adrenaline flowing unless he does truly extreme things.

00:56:41.700 Which is not like normal humans.

00:56:44.520 And this guy seems to have a touch of it.

00:56:48.120 I mean, this does not, to me, look like somebody full of adrenaline.

00:56:51.560 He knows he's about to commit this crime.

00:56:53.560 He's not running around panicked on this patio, realizing he's standing on a woman's patio wearing

00:56:59.100 a ski mask in the middle of the night.

00:57:02.300 Like, if anybody drives by, he's potentially toast.

00:57:05.580 He doesn't seem perturbed about it at all.

00:57:09.080 Jim, you were going to say a minute ago what people need to look for right now.

00:57:12.800 Like, this is a real person who's out there right now, and there might be clues in his behavior.

00:57:18.880 Yeah, and look, we've said from early on, Megan, that, you know, we can't rule out more than

00:57:26.040 one person involved in this.

00:57:27.320 There's a car involved in this.

00:57:28.500 We can't see this in any of the videos that have been released so far.

00:57:32.300 And is there a driver in there waiting for that?

00:57:35.240 Did something happen at the back door?

00:57:36.580 As complicated as this case is, in many, many times, even working other complicated cases,

00:57:43.480 and I worked some of them with Mary Ellen back in the day, sometimes, you know, Occam's

00:57:47.480 razor is really what applies here.

00:57:49.100 And we can get, go overboard with all kinds of conspiratorial elements to it.

00:57:53.960 The simplest answer is the one.

00:57:55.060 Exactly.

00:57:55.780 And so at least one guy here, perhaps with someone else in a car, perhaps not, and then

00:58:00.860 they take her to some other location, and that's the second.

00:58:03.760 Well, that would be the third crime scene.

00:58:05.040 The car would be the second.

00:58:05.860 So we'll see where that goes.

00:58:07.800 But that, of course, that can't be ruled out.

00:58:09.740 But yeah, I just, as we profilers know, and we've been trained this way, and we now impart

00:58:15.220 this knowledge to other folks doing these type of work, is, you know, what's important is

00:58:20.480 pre-offense behavior, of course, the crime itself, and post-offense behavior.

00:58:24.560 And each of those could have sub, you know, categories to them in terms of what they've been

00:58:29.760 doing all along.

00:58:30.640 And basically, you know, even before this crime, anyone, I'm talking right now to the

00:58:36.900 people out there who are listening, and you have a really big audience, Megan, so I know

00:58:41.580 a lot of people are going to be watching and listening to this.

00:58:44.420 Someone knows this guy.

00:58:45.520 And they have possibly, for weeks, months, or years, they're related to him, they're married

00:58:50.640 to him, something like that.

00:58:52.600 This guy clearly was free.

00:58:54.640 So look at the video, and I'll let others out there discuss height and weight and build

00:58:59.880 and all that stuff.

00:59:01.080 The way the guy carries the gun, I think Sigmund Freud would have a field day with how he has

00:59:05.420 the gun right, you know, sort of in front of his crotch area. 0.96

00:59:08.400 Or in his crotch. 0.94

00:59:09.060 Yeah, but that's for someone else to go. 0.99

00:59:11.480 But before the crime, he's distracted, he's busy, he's sort of self-absorbed, hey, leave

00:59:15.780 me alone, I need some time here.

00:59:17.660 He's on the internet a lot, and of course, he's making these purchases.

00:59:21.260 The old days would be in a store, you walk in and buy stuff.

00:59:23.960 Nowadays, no doubt, Amazon or some other service.

00:59:27.820 Does he have money issues?

00:59:29.060 Does he complain about money?

00:59:30.240 Does he have some sort of resentment towards, and again, we're not sure this is about the

00:59:35.140 money.

00:59:35.720 So I'm saying possibly the money issues, or does he have some resentment?

00:59:38.780 Does he always watch the Today Show with Savannah?

00:59:42.360 And is that some fixation he always had?

00:59:44.520 Would he yell at the screen when she would say something?

00:59:46.960 And we're familiar, too, on this panel with erotomania.

00:59:50.080 That's a condition in the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual that psychologists use and

00:59:55.000 psychiatrists.

00:59:55.960 You know, that's a condition of stalkers, and there's different levels of that, too.

01:00:00.060 They think you have a love relationship when they've never met you.

01:00:02.740 And I've worked a few of those cases over the years.

01:00:05.160 I know all of us have here.

01:00:06.260 And I've actually been, I've been sort of targeted myself in that regard.

01:00:10.880 He handled it, you know, accordingly.

01:00:12.580 I'm, Megan, I'm no doubt you, too.

01:00:14.860 So that's pre-offense behavior.

01:00:16.300 Post-offense is, you know, his schedule has been, is a miss.

01:00:21.860 He hasn't showed up for work.

01:00:23.440 He hasn't showed up places he should be.

01:00:25.580 Very quiet.

01:00:26.320 Very isolated at this point.

01:00:28.720 That is, if he still has Mrs. Guthrie's or not, we don't know.

01:00:33.400 But certainly he'd be paying attention to her at least twice or three times a day.

01:00:37.160 He'd have to visit her.

01:00:38.520 And I'm going to assume she's still alive.

01:00:41.700 So he's being very careful.

01:00:43.880 I don't know if he's on email doing these types of email sending off.

01:00:47.700 I think that someone else, as I said the other day, the guy that steals your phone on the subway is not the one that makes money off selling it to some place to get the material out of it.

01:00:56.640 He just gets his quick 50 bucks.

01:00:58.260 Is that this guy's role?

01:00:59.440 Or is he just doing this strictly for anger and some kind of frustration?

01:01:03.320 The last part here.

01:01:04.520 Now, the video gets released about 25 hours ago.

01:01:08.160 He all of a sudden gets frenetic.

01:01:10.160 So whatever this guy's odd behavior was before, if you're around him, things change.

01:01:15.240 He's looking to, he's putting things in bags and suitcases.

01:01:18.100 He's moving them out.

01:01:19.320 Does he start a fire in a barrel somewhere?

01:01:21.380 Does he get a shovel and start burying things?

01:01:23.840 Go somewhere near water?

01:01:25.460 That's a very possibility.

01:01:26.940 Moving around quickly.

01:01:27.980 Does he change his appearance?

01:01:29.200 Shave a mustache.

01:01:30.260 Cut his hair.

01:01:31.880 That's very possible.

01:01:33.060 Dye his hair.

01:01:34.040 Even though you don't really see any hair in that regard.

01:01:37.160 If he has a car, he may be keeping that inside a garage, not wanting it anywhere.

01:01:40.760 If he thinks now he's been seen on video, he may think his car has been on video.

01:01:44.640 And he's still very focused on the media.

01:01:47.860 He may be listening to us in real time.

01:01:50.180 And if he is, please let Mrs. Guthrie's go.

01:01:53.040 And the damage you've caused will be a lot less, including for you.

01:01:56.980 So I'll be glad to open this up to Maureen and Mary Ellen.

01:02:00.520 But these are some of the factors.

01:02:02.020 Look at the video.

01:02:02.980 Then look at these behavioral elements that I just listed.

01:02:07.160 And you could be somewhere in there.

01:02:09.120 And that's the person we're looking for.

01:02:10.480 Then call the FBI and let them know.

01:02:13.620 And I guarantee you someone will follow up on it.

01:02:17.840 Do you guys have thoughts on that?

01:02:19.720 Yeah, I think right now this guy is very agitated. 0.98

01:02:21.960 And he's going to have a very short temper, whoever this person is, because he is trapped in a corner and he's a rat.

01:02:31.220 With regard to the front door or the back door, which one?

01:02:35.160 Well, they may have more video that shows him opening that door somehow.

01:02:39.760 And if he did, either it was a practice of Mrs. Guthrie to either accidentally or purposefully leave that door unlocked, which is, I would have a hard time believing that.

01:02:50.240 Or they may have had a key.

01:02:51.940 I don't know.

01:02:52.680 And then they opened the back door just to make it look like they came in from the back door.

01:02:59.780 That's true, because we don't see him struggling with the door at all.

01:03:01.980 We only see him struggling with the Nest camera.

01:03:04.460 So we still remain in the dark about how he actually got into the house.

01:03:08.820 Go ahead, Mary Ellen.

01:03:09.640 And to add to what Maureen and Jim have already said, you've got the behavioral modifications to his appearance that he very likely could have engaged in.

01:03:22.860 But what he can't change is his personality.

01:03:25.140 It is what it is.

01:03:26.200 And I think that he's probably glued to the TV, to the radio, listening to people talk about what he's done.

01:03:37.140 And I think one of the real questions that I always have in a crime of extreme violence is, does the offender feel bad for what they've done to the victim?

01:03:46.600 And not to become too graphic, but this was probably so upsetting for Nancy to have this happen to her, to be taken out of her home and put in a car with a stranger.

01:04:02.560 I mean, what she must have gone through is agonizing.

01:04:05.160 What her family is going through is agonizing.

01:04:08.060 I think we have to allow for the possibility, Maureen and Jim and I have seen people like this, they have no empathy for the victim.

01:04:15.880 And so you asked earlier about what he would think about somebody else being pulled over for his crime.

01:04:24.060 That may not have gone well with this offender because he wants credit for what he did, if that's the kind of offender that we're talking about.

01:04:32.180 And I can tell you this, and Maureen and Jim, you weigh in on this.

01:04:35.920 This is the hardest thing for the general public to comprehend is that there are people that feel no remorse for what they do, no empathy for the victim.

01:04:45.620 And take a great deal of pleasure in what they've accomplished and that they feel they are outwitting law enforcement in this investigation.

01:04:55.260 If that's what we're dealing with, that puts this person in a whole different category.

01:04:59.880 And that's what we try to do is we look at all of this behavior and offer it to the investigators to say, you could be looking for this kind of person, the pre, the post behavior, but you also could be looking for somebody like this.

01:05:14.300 At this point, we're not sure, but you have to consider the possibility.

01:05:18.140 This person doesn't feel anything for the victim and what they've done.

01:05:20.900 Mm-hmm.

01:05:23.140 And that, I mean, that's the scariest thought of all because we don't know where Nancy Guthrie is and whether it's possible she's still alive.

01:05:30.500 There was some speculation.

01:05:32.120 We've talked about it that like an experienced kidnapper takes the medications.

01:05:36.500 Like they actually, it's not because they care about the victim at all.

01:05:39.760 It's that they know I've got to keep my prize alive and well if I want to get paid, but this guy does not appear to have taken her medication and does not appear to have been in touch if he didn't write those two ransom notes.

01:05:53.200 The first ransom note to the three news organizations and then the follow-up note where there was no proof of life, but really just like a reminder that I've got her and I'm just assuming that's what's in there.

01:06:05.280 This is the thing I've wanted to get to though, the Nest camera.

01:06:10.100 It's very interesting that he came up.

01:06:12.500 So like keep in mind, one of our theories is that possibly, possibly he stalked the house and knew it well and like knew exactly what his plan was coming up.

01:06:22.140 Another one is possibly he was hired by a friend or a family member of Nancy Guthrie's and told, please go at one in the morning and do the following thing, 147.

01:06:32.680 And that person would have told him under the second theory, there's a Nest camera.

01:06:39.100 Now that could be why he wore a ski mask or he wore a ski mask because he didn't want Nancy Guthrie to be able to identify him.

01:06:46.000 We don't know, but he shows up there almost surprised.

01:06:49.900 I don't know that there's a Nest camera.

01:06:51.340 And the reason I say he looks surprised is because you see him sort of fiddling with it.

01:06:55.560 He's got his gloved hand.

01:06:56.640 He's kind of fiddling with it.

01:06:57.580 He does the bang, bang, bang, the gentle taps on the Nest camera.

01:07:02.540 He doesn't try that hard.

01:07:04.020 And then he gives up.

01:07:05.360 He's like, I'm going to cover it with vegetation.

01:07:07.700 And he goes and he gets the vegetation and comes back and covers it.

01:07:10.520 And then we never see him get the Nest camera off of the wall.

01:07:14.640 We do see in the post-crime pictures taken after police got involved, the remnants, the receptacle that holds the Nest camera still there.

01:07:24.760 And we know from the sheriff, yeah, that they don't have the Nest cameras.

01:07:28.740 The law enforcement does not have the Nest cameras.

01:07:30.660 The perpetrator took them.

01:07:32.080 So eventually the guy does get the Nest camera.

01:07:34.620 And we're told by Ashley Banfield that there was one in the back door, too, and he got both of them.

01:07:39.140 Her store said they were destroyed.

01:07:41.020 And the sheriff said, we don't have them.

01:07:42.980 So we believe he destroyed them and took them.

01:07:46.500 But we know for a fact that they were gone.

01:07:48.520 So what do you see?

01:07:49.740 Do you see like a clever man come up and boom, boom, the Nest camera's off.

01:07:53.080 It's destroyed.

01:07:53.700 You see him step on it and the filming stops.

01:07:56.360 No, that's not what you see.

01:07:57.760 You see him come up, do the tap, tap, tap.

01:07:59.940 He gives up.

01:08:01.040 He gets the vegetation.

01:08:02.220 And then we're not exactly sure what he does after that because the videos don't all seem sequential.

01:08:06.720 We're not exactly sure what the sequence of events was.

01:08:09.540 But let me show you.

01:08:10.300 So we had our producer, Jake Whitman, get a Nest camera and try to get it off of its holder on the wall.

01:08:19.740 And he did this little video.

01:08:21.220 It's very clear.

01:08:21.860 Watch this.

01:08:22.840 Watch.

01:08:23.880 Okay, Megan.

01:08:24.760 I've installed the Nest doorbell camera on our door to the garage here.

01:08:28.700 And what's interesting is it comes with a little tab, just a little flat tab, almost like a tip of a screwdriver, really.

01:08:39.120 And that's how you remove it from the top.

01:08:41.160 So you just push down and it clicks right off.

01:08:45.300 Sort of.

01:08:47.160 There it goes.

01:08:47.800 So it pulls right off that way and that's how you take it off to charge it because it is battery powered.

01:08:52.080 It needs to be charged every so often.

01:08:54.040 There's no wires here.

01:08:55.360 And you'll see this plate looks exactly like the one that you see on the house at Nancy Guthrie's house in all the news videos.

01:09:03.540 So it's the same model.

01:09:04.800 And to put it back, you just click it on the base after you've charged the battery and it's there.

01:09:12.720 And the question is, how do you get it off without the tab?

01:09:16.900 And I was excited because you said we could smash this if we wanted to and you'd pay for it.

01:09:21.840 But you don't need to do that.

01:09:23.220 You actually, just with a little bit of force, you can pull it right off.

01:09:28.520 And the base is still there, undamaged.

01:09:31.560 And actually, this camera is still recording.

01:09:33.700 So if I take this and throw it or put it in my bag, it's still going to be recording for a little bit longer.

01:09:39.400 So I got to think there's still video of that, that they haven't recovered, that might show a different angle of things that we haven't seen.

01:09:46.160 There's no evidence that it was damaged on the front porch.

01:09:49.180 So my guess is it was just taken out of Wi-Fi range.

01:09:52.700 And that's why it disconnected.

01:09:54.580 Or they could have turned her Wi-Fi off.

01:09:57.660 But taking it off the base, like I just did, does not disconnect it in any way.

01:10:04.380 It's still capturing.

01:10:09.400 That is so interesting.

01:10:14.320 So that's Jake Whitman.

01:10:15.500 Great job there.

01:10:16.940 Taking it off the base is easy and does not stop the filming.

01:10:23.260 And anybody who knows the Nest camera should know that if you have this little key, it's the size of like a key a girl might have for her diary for the listening audience.

01:10:34.520 It's small.

01:10:35.260 It's like an inch large.

01:10:36.860 It pops right off.

01:10:39.620 And so it would take nothing for like an experienced burglar or kidnapper who's by this point probably familiar with Nest cams to know, oh, all I need is this little thing.

01:10:51.400 It's off.

01:10:52.200 And you don't even need this.

01:10:53.460 You saw Jake just wiggle it a little in its cradle and it came right off.

01:11:00.100 So what and it's small.

01:11:03.680 I mean, you have it.

01:11:05.020 It fits right in the palm of your hand.

01:11:07.660 And then we can talk about what happens next because there's not an on off switch, guys.

01:11:13.420 It doesn't.

01:11:14.480 Getting it off is not enough.

01:11:16.320 Getting it off.

01:11:16.940 It should still be rolling.

01:11:17.840 And there should still be images of the guy getting it off, which maybe Cash has and just hasn't shared.

01:11:24.120 But what does it tell you just so far?

01:11:26.380 I'll stop it there.

01:11:27.600 That he didn't seem to know how to get it off.

01:11:30.600 He tried.

01:11:31.380 He did the wrong thing with the fist, fist, fist.

01:11:34.340 And seemed to be a bit of an amateur there.

01:11:36.800 Go ahead, Fitz.

01:11:37.400 Yeah, real quick.

01:11:38.780 The audio from your producer, Jake, was that from his separate mic system or is that some from the Nest camera?

01:11:47.000 There is audio to these cameras, too.

01:11:48.460 I think that's separate.

01:11:49.840 We're going to ask.

01:11:50.740 I'm guessing it's separate.

01:11:51.620 And he did tell me that this thing has audio, but the default setting from the factory is no audio on.

01:12:00.000 So you'd have to go into the system and turn the audio on if you wanted that, which the odds of Nancy Guthrie, you know, well, she didn't knowing how to do that. 0.88

01:12:10.760 I mean, I guess she could have told the Nest camera installer that she wanted that.

01:12:14.340 But we didn't hear we didn't hear audio and what the FBI released.

01:12:17.520 So I'm just going to guess there wasn't any.

01:12:19.140 Keep going.

01:12:20.860 Maureen, we talked during the break and you have some insight about these cameras.

01:12:24.780 I think that was a great that was great for your audience.

01:12:26.760 Put that up there, Megan.

01:12:28.000 A good idea for your team's part.

01:12:30.000 Maureen, I'd be curious to hear some of what you were telling me over the break.

01:12:33.240 Okay, great.

01:12:34.100 But first, Nancy didn't install this. 0.74

01:12:37.320 And whoever this person is did not install this Nest camera or he would know what you just explained to us.

01:12:43.020 But I have a very close colleague that I work with on my team all the time, and he is an IT genius.

01:12:49.600 And he said that with regard, Megan, this is with regard to how the FBI extracted this data back after people thought it was gone.

01:13:01.720 Would you like to go into this now or would you like to finish with?

01:13:04.580 Yeah.

01:13:05.220 All right.

01:13:06.080 Well, well, let's finish with it.

01:13:07.200 Let's finish with it.

01:13:07.800 Because, by the way, Jake is telling me now that the audio was both.

01:13:12.040 When we were watching the Nest video of him, it was playing.

01:13:16.240 The audio was playing from the Nest.

01:13:17.640 And when we were watching his nicer video of, like, more color shots, it was Jake's audio on his mic.

01:13:24.640 So, in other words, you can get decent audio from Nest.

01:13:27.360 Go ahead.

01:13:27.580 Just real quick, and I'll give it back to Maureen.

01:13:29.460 But can you imagine if he took those with him, this guy in the mask, and he's someone in the car where he starts talking to himself, still within Wi-Fi range of the house, what valuable information that could be on audio?

01:13:42.760 Yes.

01:13:43.580 Or the crime.

01:13:44.820 Well, the crime itself, too, of course, which this is all the crime.

01:13:48.520 But wait, but here's why I raised that.

01:13:50.700 It's not just for fun.

01:13:51.640 So, we're going to do an experiment here, not just for kicks, but because what did we see in the Brian Enten video of the front stoop?

01:14:01.060 We saw that the vegetation and the blood was still there.

01:14:04.720 They did not clean it up.

01:14:06.920 What didn't we see?

01:14:09.720 A smashed Nest camera.

01:14:12.120 We did not see any pieces of Nest camera smashed in the front or the back.

01:14:17.540 And actually, so that's what we're just going to see, I mean, just to see.

01:14:21.100 They brought me a little cutting board.

01:14:22.860 They brought me a hammer, and I am going to try to hammer this Nest camera just to see if it's hard.

01:14:27.340 All right?

01:14:27.620 So, I have a hammer. 0.68

01:14:28.720 I'm going to smash this Nest camera.

01:14:30.520 Be careful, Megan.

01:14:31.540 I will.

01:14:32.320 I will.

01:14:32.660 Do you have glasses?

01:14:33.080 But just to see if it's easy.

01:14:34.560 Do you have glasses to put on?

01:14:35.660 Do I have what?

01:14:36.080 Do you have glasses to put on in case you start?

01:14:38.040 I'll wear my reader glasses.

01:14:39.440 I'll wear my readers.

01:14:41.580 Okay.

01:14:41.860 Put a flashlight in your mouth and a mask, and you can...

01:14:44.580 Okay, here we go.

01:14:47.540 No, it's not that easy to destroy.

01:14:50.520 But the camera part's probably easy.

01:14:53.900 I've destroyed the lens.

01:14:55.780 Right.

01:14:58.960 All right.

01:14:59.540 So now I've really wailed on it, and there's just tiny little pieces of glass and shards,

01:15:03.940 but the actual camera itself is still pretty much intact.

01:15:07.440 I should have warned the listening audience that that was going to be right by the microphone.

01:15:10.640 My bad.

01:15:11.220 Thank you.

01:15:12.880 But where...

01:15:14.000 So, it did take some effort, and it's possible he took this.

01:15:17.400 You guys, but where are the remnants of it?

01:15:20.600 And if he...

01:15:21.600 The camera went off.

01:15:22.360 And when I smashed it, we had it online, just as an experiment.

01:15:25.820 It went offline when I smashed it.

01:15:27.280 Oh.

01:15:27.740 So there's no remnants of it, however, and it's gone.

01:15:31.000 So you tell me whether you think Kash Patel possibly has shots of this guy stealing it, damaging

01:15:37.200 it, or whether the guy was so dumb he took it eventually, put it in that backpack, and

01:15:43.960 possibly they have actual pictures of the inside of the house and what went down that 0.89

01:15:49.040 are waiting to be retrieved by the geniuses at Google.

01:15:52.980 Or the audio.

01:15:55.600 Now, the question is, did your producers, I mean, obviously, they were there when you

01:16:01.660 were smashing it.

01:16:02.980 Could the information that Ashley Banfield provided to you, that it was in fact smashed

01:16:08.580 and destroyed, could that have come from someone who was knowledgeable of the fact that someone,

01:16:13.720 they had video or audio of someone smashing the hell out of it?

01:16:17.860 Mm, that's a good question.

01:16:21.960 Can I just throw in here, I've put these cameras in in a couple different houses.

01:16:26.840 They need batteries.

01:16:28.280 You don't have to smash it.

01:16:29.940 And your producer can correct me.

01:16:31.600 I think they don't run without batteries.

01:16:33.300 They don't have a built-in battery.

01:16:34.560 Remove the two AAA batteries.

01:16:36.700 Wait, I think he said we had to charge it.

01:16:38.900 No, he said it wasn't battery operated.

01:16:40.840 He said you have to plug it in and charge it.

01:16:42.240 And even before we used it here on the set, we had it plugged into like an iPhone charger.

01:16:45.900 All right, so then the power would stay on.

01:16:47.860 And it would have to then be smashed.

01:16:49.160 He did say if you disconnected the person's Wi-Fi, the camera will die.

01:16:53.280 Like it does have to be connected.

01:16:54.780 But like the odds of this guy having like, did he get in there and disconnect her Wi-Fi?

01:16:59.500 No, that guy, that numbskull with the vegetation.

01:17:03.160 No.

01:17:03.320 So he must have destroyed the camera.

01:17:05.320 They must have additional pictures because like all those shots, we don't see the end of this.

01:17:10.220 And so I do wonder whether the FBI knows more than it's telling us about what exactly happened

01:17:15.340 to the cameras, knows exactly how this guy dismantled them, and maybe has shots of him in the backyard too.

01:17:21.580 Because my guess is when he couldn't get into that front door, almost all of our experts think he couldn't have gotten through that front door,

01:17:29.560 that he went around to the back, that he had more luck in the back, that he got rid of that camera.

01:17:34.880 He went in the back door.

01:17:35.700 He may have broken the back door, which is why it was open, according to Ashley, when they got there.

01:17:40.740 And then he brought Nancy out the front when the crime was done.

01:17:44.860 And that's maybe when he grabbed the ring camera or the Nest camera off the front when he was on his way out of the house with it.

01:17:54.620 But still we have the FBI telling us that it was 1.47 a.m. that the Nest camera went offline and 2.28 a.m. that the pacemaker stopped communicating.

01:18:08.400 So I just, I wonder whether there's more, there's more to be recovered.

01:18:13.720 And now we can talk about how Google might be trying to find those images.

01:18:18.680 Well, my money would be on him ripping the camera off before because he knows for sure his hands are going to be full on his way out.

01:18:27.600 So that would be what I would expect to see.

01:18:30.960 But of course, I could be wrong.

01:18:33.080 So with regard to how they probably got this imagery for us.

01:18:43.100 And might get more.

01:18:44.400 Yeah, I'm sure they do.

01:18:45.480 I don't think that they would cough up everything they have.

01:18:48.080 But, you know, just having been in these situations, Fitz and I have seen information go out from the Bureau many times and in other investigations we've been involved in.

01:18:57.680 And it's very rarely, actually, I can say it's never been everything we have ever.

01:19:02.780 So not specifically knowing what the platform is, even though it's a Google platform.

01:19:08.240 We don't know exactly how this thing is configured.

01:19:10.880 The camera does send its video to vendor's server's platform so that it can be routed to the user's mobile application for live viewing.

01:19:19.980 Remember I talked to you yesterday about the thumbnail?

01:19:22.920 Yeah, we have that.

01:19:24.580 The announcement that...

01:19:25.320 When somebody comes to your door, you can see it on your phone.

01:19:27.040 So for live viewing, even when they don't have a subscription for storing the video data on the vendor's server.

01:19:35.300 I would imagine the vendor was able to recover the user's streaming video from their platform's memory.

01:19:41.620 And a way to illustrate this, imagine that you send an email from your account to my account, but you don't save the email to one of your email folders.

01:19:50.280 Evidence of the email communication would still exist for a limited period of time on the email servers due to this routing process.

01:19:58.420 So it's all about the routing process.

01:20:00.080 As another example, if you had a CCTV camera that you viewed on a mobile app, the video data has to be sent over to a video platform for processing before it's routed over the internet to your mobile app.

01:20:15.440 The platform's processing memory, the RAM...

01:20:18.240 So all those little cached photos.

01:20:18.980 Yep, would have traces of this processing just for a limited period of time.

01:20:23.080 If you had a subscription, obviously it would be much longer.

01:20:25.500 Well, that, I mean, they're probably finding all of it.

01:20:31.420 It seems like a needle in a haystack situation that Google's helping with now, either because we're told that they did get a warrant.

01:20:38.740 We're also told that the Guthrie family gave permission, of course, on behalf of their mother.

01:20:43.920 And the FBI and Google have been working together to find it.

01:20:46.900 But it sounds like it's needle in the haystack stuff to try to get to the images.

01:20:50.220 It's not like very clear, oh, I'll just go to the address of Nancy Guthrie and I'll pull up what's there.

01:20:53.820 No, I do data extraction for a lot of my clients because I have these experts that work for my company.

01:21:01.680 And I even have a very high-level PhD person that is just outstanding.

01:21:08.220 And he says he never works with the guy on my team who worked for the FBI for 30 years.

01:21:13.840 He never works with him for more than 15 minutes without learning something.

01:21:17.600 That's how good he is.

01:21:18.320 But, Megan, could I talk for a moment about what Cash Patel said about the partnerships that we have with private sector?

01:21:24.940 Because my last couple years as an agent, I was completely burned out from casework.

01:21:30.540 And I became the PSC, which is the private sector coordinator.

01:21:35.480 With that, I was responsible for the InfraGard program, which is the largest national public-private sector partnership anywhere that we know of.

01:21:46.360 And it's run by the FBI and funded largely by the FBI and also DSAC.

01:21:51.940 And between DSAC, which is the domestic security, it's all Fortune 100 companies.

01:21:57.220 I guess it could be Fortune 500 companies.

01:21:59.980 So we work very closely with members from every sector.

01:22:05.240 And if we're low on one sector and we see spikes in crime in that sector, we work hard to develop more relationships with people so that we have someone to call when there is an emerging situation.

01:22:18.400 And if you consider...

01:22:18.980 Well, I mean, this is an important one.

01:22:20.080 Oh, yeah.

01:22:20.660 So we do this.

01:22:21.340 The Nest camera...

01:22:22.760 This is what we're waiting for.

01:22:24.260 This is what we do.

01:22:25.220 Well, that makes perfect sense.

01:22:26.640 And thankfully, they're cooperating.

01:22:29.220 But you tell me, you know, one person that didn't coordinate was the guy who did this crime with anybody who's installed a Nest camera.

01:22:37.460 Because why wouldn't he have just brought the key?

01:22:40.680 Truly, this thing alone could have gotten that thing off in two seconds.

01:22:44.380 Or you saw Jake Whitman pull it.

01:22:46.620 Just wiggle it.

01:22:47.500 So this guy does not have experience.

01:22:48.820 And what that tells me is he's not that experienced at committing these break-ins because these cameras are a dime a dozen now.

01:22:55.500 Almost everybody has them.

01:22:57.020 He didn't seem to know what he was doing.

01:22:58.920 And it does make me question whether he had any coordination with a family member of Nancy Guthrie because that person would have told him there are Nest cameras.

01:23:08.100 You're going to have to get it down.

01:23:09.740 There should have been some pre-planning.

01:23:11.300 And now I'm starting to wonder, like, how well thought out this whole thing was because why didn't he know any of this?

01:23:19.160 Like, this is basic prep work, is it not?

01:23:21.880 Especially if he's, like, the super intelligent, never-makes-a-grammatical-error guy who wrote the things that impressed Harvey so much.

01:23:29.340 He doesn't – he didn't know about the little key?

01:23:32.100 He didn't know about the wiggling?

01:23:34.300 He had to do the vegetation?

01:23:35.820 Like, who is this person?

01:23:36.960 He could have been told by his co-conspirator that it's very easy, just pull it right out of its housing.

01:23:42.860 But he's not a manhandler like whoever his co-conspirator was or is.

01:23:47.960 Or he had help in the back who had a lot easier time getting down the back Nest camera and possibly opened up the front door for him.

01:23:56.720 Or, you know, we don't – there may have been another person there.

01:23:59.020 But to me, it just seems incongruous that you have this guy show up like a numbskull, not able to wiggle the Nest camera down and resorting to, I'm just going to put some flowers over it.

01:24:13.520 Which doesn't seem like a great plan, you guys.

01:24:15.740 You know, it just – it seems haphazard. 0.95

01:24:18.620 Megan, the most glaring thing of all is the way this clown carried his weapon. 0.86

01:24:24.600 He brings a whole new meaning to the term gunslinger. 0.94

01:24:29.080 None of us have ever seen anything like this.

01:24:33.120 And Fitz was right when he said, you know, with his comment earlier.

01:24:39.960 Freud would have a field day.

01:24:41.440 Uh-huh. 0.99

01:24:43.560 Ridiculous. 0.99

01:24:44.220 It's right. 0.97

01:24:44.840 It's in exactly the right spot.

01:24:48.380 And we talked yesterday about it seemed to have sort of an extended barrel, which is part of the whole theory.

01:24:54.460 I don't know how that translates into what people are looking for right now.

01:24:58.880 He's happy to be there.

01:25:00.500 Yeah.

01:25:01.320 But, I mean, that just shows –

01:25:03.100 All right.

01:25:03.540 He's macho or something because that holster is for a longer-barreled revolver.

01:25:13.080 And here he's got a smaller semi-automatic in there.

01:25:17.320 But he can.

01:25:18.160 It's like the boldness of it.

01:25:20.240 Like, I would think if you're going to go rob somebody's house, first of all, I think you'd have like a hat on, you know, to make yourself look less conspicuous.

01:25:29.120 Like, hide your ski mask.

01:25:30.700 I would definitely think you'd hide your gun.

01:25:33.560 It's like, how can I make myself look as much like a criminal as humanly possible?

01:25:39.200 I'm going to put my gun right here on the outside where everybody can see it.

01:25:43.220 And you were telling us yesterday, Maureen, this is actually – this looked to you like a holster that normally is supposed to go on the inside of your pants.

01:25:49.400 Right.

01:25:49.820 But no, he wore it on the outside.

01:25:51.320 He wanted to show it off.

01:25:52.380 I guess maybe he wanted to scare Nancy.

01:25:54.000 And the ski mask, which also is very intimidating and scary.

01:25:58.160 But it's like, okay, once you can get into the house, you can look very scary.

01:26:01.080 But God forbid somebody see you, you're toast. 0.98

01:26:03.300 Yes, he's killing him. 0.92

01:26:03.820 There was no pre-planning for the thought that somebody could see him. 1.00

01:26:05.900 His plan was to kill that person.

01:26:08.160 And can I correct something I said yesterday that wasn't correct?

01:26:11.340 Because as you know, when these images first came to us, they were popping up on air and my screen is small and the images were a fraction of my screen.

01:26:22.620 I mistakenly said that those gloves were leather because of the small image.

01:26:27.820 Once I saw the larger images, it was clear to me that they were black rubber or plastic gloves over cloth or some other type of glove.

01:26:43.300 Which, by the way, in forensics, when you wear gloves like that all day, like you see them all the time in food service, by the way.

01:26:49.500 They all wear those black – they're like food prep.

01:26:51.900 They're very common to be used as food prep gloves.

01:26:54.640 But when you wear them all day, your hands sweat and it makes everything difficult to – it makes your fine motor skills much more difficult.

01:27:02.820 So in forensics, on the FBI's ERT team, we would always use cotton gloves, really thin cotton gloves under whatever rubber gloves we're wearing or latex or just to make – because then you can wear them for long periods of time.

01:27:19.900 Mm-hmm. He wasn't thinking he was going to be in there for long, but long enough. Go ahead, Fitz.

01:27:26.220 Two things, quasi-related. I don't want to give this guy too much credit.

01:27:33.900 We'll say the guy at the door, we're not ruling out other people involved and who knows where the kidnapping part comes in.

01:27:39.400 But I still can't believe he didn't have some sort of information about the house, certainly who lives there.

01:27:47.860 She could have been an 84-year-old woman who doesn't have a daughter who's, you know, very wealthy and successful on TV and takes her out. 1.00

01:27:54.720 So he knew all of that.

01:27:56.200 But I'm wondering if the inside information was, don't worry, they don't have a subscription service.

01:28:00.800 Because, you know, the Ness camera is not going to do anything for you.

01:28:05.300 Don't worry about that.

01:28:06.680 But he decides for maybe counter-forensic purposes to kind of throw off the trail.

01:28:12.820 And I'm still trying to, you know, adhere to Occam's razor here.

01:28:16.480 But, you know, well, let me take these things anyway, just in case there's something on there.

01:28:20.640 Never knowing that whether he takes them or not, smashes them, or whatever the deal is,

01:28:25.180 they still come back with this video that we've seen in the last few, in the last day or so.

01:28:31.600 So, again, he may be trying to pretend he's smarter than he is, take these things.

01:28:36.280 I had plenty of bank robbers over the day when I was working with New York City.

01:28:40.000 They'd take the camera down or they'd insist the manager goes up, remove the film back then, a cassette,

01:28:45.700 and they would take that with them.

01:28:47.520 And usually in that case, that was it.

01:28:49.460 But there's no way this guy destroyed the camera, which the sheriff is denying.

01:28:53.980 He's like, I don't know where you got that.

01:28:55.980 I don't know where that comes from.

01:28:57.480 We're not going to comment on it.

01:28:58.620 So he's not really denying it.

01:28:59.860 But he's like, I have no idea where that came from.

01:29:01.660 We're not going to comment on it.

01:29:02.980 But that's Ashley's reporting.

01:29:04.080 Clearly, he did destroy it because we, every time we've done this with Jake, with me, the camera was working.

01:29:11.120 There's no on-off button.

01:29:12.700 The camera was working when we pulled it out of the holster.

01:29:15.540 And the thing that stopped the camera from working is you either turn off the Wi-Fi,

01:29:19.720 its battery runs out, meaning the charge that you've given it via a cord has run out, or you've smashed it.

01:29:27.180 So clearly, her reporting was right.

01:29:29.380 I mean, basically what we've done here in part is we've, not that it needed rehabilitation,

01:29:34.420 but we've rehabilitated or lended credibility to even more of Ashley Banfield's reporting,

01:29:39.400 all of which we believe has been spot on thus far.

01:29:43.500 And, of course, the big magilla of her news scoops was that, as of Tuesday of last week,

01:29:51.320 the brother-in-law may be the prime suspect.

01:29:54.520 And that is something we don't know whether it's true.

01:29:57.180 It's obviously something we need to consider,

01:29:59.420 especially given the recurring presence of law enforcement around Annie and Tomas' home.

01:30:07.040 And the fact that he completely disappeared.

01:30:10.780 We haven't seen him at all.

01:30:12.860 And, I mean, we haven't seen the other spouses either.

01:30:15.480 I mean, Savannah's married. 0.98

01:30:16.240 We haven't seen her husband.

01:30:17.420 I don't know about her brother, Cameron, whether he's married.

01:30:19.540 So in fairness to him, but he's a local, and obviously he's under scrutiny.

01:30:23.360 So, you know, you might let yourself be seen just to show, like, we're still together.

01:30:27.340 The family stands by me.

01:30:28.700 That hasn't happened.

01:30:29.860 And, you know, on top of that, we're now seeing search after search after search after search

01:30:37.020 in his backyard and of his neighbors, re-questioning of his neighbors with the video images of this perp.

01:30:44.900 Do you know him?

01:30:45.640 Do you know him?

01:30:46.240 Do you know him?

01:30:46.600 And the obvious implication is, like, has he been here working on your house or as a guest of the two people here?

01:30:53.240 I mean, no one wants to say that.

01:30:54.280 And I don't want to wrongfully impugn the guy either, but it's irresponsible not to consider this as one of the avenues that the police are looking into.

01:31:01.700 That they would be considering the family is not a mystery, and frankly, it's not controversial. 0.99

01:31:06.940 Obviously, they are considering that, or they'd be idiots. 0.99

01:31:10.080 It has to be one of the things that they're looking into, and thus is one of the things we consider, too, 0.99

01:31:14.500 while maintaining a presumption of innocence and the basic premise that the family seems to still, as far as we know, be embracing him and not suspecting him.

01:31:22.900 All right, I'm going to leave it there for one second.

01:31:25.200 We're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to come back and be joined, in addition to you guys,

01:31:28.820 by two profilers who have real thoughts on what the motives here may be.

01:31:35.360 Okay, don't go away.

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01:32:37.940 Fitz and Maureen are still with me, and joining me now as well, Will Geddes.

01:32:45.320 Will is an elite bodyguard who has over 30 years of experience as a security expert.

01:32:49.600 He consults with U.S. law enforcement and federal government agencies, and he now runs a firm called International Corporate Protection.

01:32:56.480 Also with me, James Hamilton.

01:32:58.060 He is a former FBI supervisory special agent and creator of the FBI's Close Protection School, which is a specialized training program designed for agents to protect high-level officials.

01:33:10.800 He now runs his own security firm called Hamilton Security Group.

01:33:14.520 Will, James, welcome to you both.

01:33:16.520 We just did a little experiment here, which is kind of interesting because what the FBI is telling us is that that ring camera, Nest, it's the Nest, went offline at 1.47 a.m.

01:33:30.500 And what we have seen, thanks to our own experiment, is pulling the camera off of its base does not turn it offline.

01:33:38.680 If it runs out of the charge, it would go offline, but presumably that didn't happen just as the bad guy arrived.

01:33:48.120 Disconnecting it from Wi-Fi could show you that it's offline, but we have no reason to believe he cut some sort of a Wi-Fi line.

01:33:54.920 And what happened in our experiment was it did not disconnect until we literally brought the hammer down on it, and that is when it disconnected.

01:34:04.320 And so if that is true, in fact, we have the video.

01:34:05.980 Now they've turned it.

01:34:06.760 Here it is.

01:34:07.180 Here's video from the camera of me bringing the hammer down on it.

01:34:11.880 I guess.

01:34:12.920 Okay, I'm getting ready.

01:34:14.420 I'm putting my glasses on, and this is the little.

01:34:18.580 Okay, there it is.

01:34:19.720 That's me hammering it.

01:34:20.720 Oh, hold on.

01:34:22.740 And before I've actually touched it, before I've actually touched it, it's going to go offline.

01:34:28.020 And so it goes offline actually like a second before it's all destroyed.

01:34:32.440 But the point is, at 1.47, now it's offline, at 1.47 a.m., he must have destroyed it.

01:34:41.080 So all this stuff is happening, we think, before 1.47 a.m., moving the timeline back a little bit.

01:34:47.280 Because let's not forget, this video doesn't show him succeeding in destroying it.

01:34:51.220 It shows him putting vegetation in front of it.

01:34:53.000 So there was a longer time there.

01:34:55.880 And I don't know how much longer he was standing there in front of the Guthrie home with his ski mask on and his gun showing to everybody that it took him to finally get the camera disconnected.

01:35:10.180 And still, 10 minutes later or so, it caught an image.

01:35:13.220 Or I think it was at 2.12, it caught an image of a body.

01:35:15.700 Okay, let me ask you guys, because you're the experts at like the profile of who's doing bad acts, who's doing things like this.

01:35:25.500 And I'll start with you on it, Jim.

01:35:28.080 We haven't talked a lot about it, but the fact that Savannah Guthrie is a national celebrity, I mean, news people don't like to be called celebrities, but she is, is something that's probably getting too little play as we consider motivations here.

01:35:42.100 Your thoughts?

01:35:43.300 Is that for Jim Fitzgerald or James Hamilton?

01:35:46.220 Yeah, that's for James, James Hamilton.

01:35:49.580 Fitzgerald's Fitz now.

01:35:50.920 We know him well, so he's Fitz.

01:35:52.580 Thanks for that.

01:35:53.820 Yeah, clearly anyone in the public eye is going to, you know, get some scrutiny and also get things like this.

01:36:00.700 So I wouldn't put it past it.

01:36:02.800 Certainly, there's a relationship that the investigators are looking at.

01:36:07.800 And, you know, for people like you, people in the public eye, certainly there's going to, you know, need to be some type of security protocols and training.

01:36:15.220 And just a general awareness that is really above the general person because you are related to a, you know, a high visibility type of individual.

01:36:25.880 And that certainly can't be discounted.

01:36:27.720 What do you think the likelihood is, Will, that Savannah's public figure status is a motivation here in some way?

01:36:37.620 I think it's highly likely, Megan.

01:36:40.200 I've dealt with a number of cases where, certainly in terms of either some sort of fixation or certainly targeting, this was a targeted attack.

01:36:48.900 And what will generally happen if it is a kidnapping and it turns out to be a kidnapping, it will be to go through the path of least resistance.

01:36:56.720 And that is to target a family member who won't necessarily have the same level or status of security around them, whether that be in their home or whether they have any specific security that's assigned to them by their company or by their organization.

01:37:10.320 So this was a targeted attack to target children is quite often the case, but it can be elderly family members.

01:37:19.220 So, you know, my gut at the moment is this.

01:37:22.020 This is directly connected, obviously, to Savannah.

01:37:24.960 And I think this ultimately it wasn't a burglary, that's for sure.

01:37:28.240 And certainly in terms of the condition of Nancy, that's obviously very good, going to be very difficult to tell until such time as a proof of life in some shape or form is delivered.

01:37:38.980 So when you thought that, Will, you thought it's it's related to Savannah.

01:37:44.020 Did how did seeing the pictures yesterday influence your opinion at all, if at all?

01:37:49.140 Well, I certainly I've been watching as James, obviously, the lead up on what you guys have been covering before we came and joined you.

01:37:56.480 And I would say they became very ill prepared.

01:38:00.180 They're not entirely professional.

01:38:01.760 I've seen highly professional groups.

01:38:03.720 There would have been no doubt some advanced reconnaissance, but not sophisticated enough to be able to determine how to remove a ring doorbell.

01:38:12.040 And certainly a good organized professional kidnappers will look at all aspects of denying electricity, denying power, and then obviously considering anything that is remotely powered like a ring doorbell.

01:38:25.140 So, you know, I looked at them, looked at the position like you guys were talking about, the position of his firearm, overtly, not covertly, in an abdomen sort of concealed carry way.

01:38:36.760 And in terms of obviously his outfit, what he was wearing, there were a lot of identifiers on there, which I think the law enforcement agencies and obviously the federal agencies will be following up on and chasing, obviously, to try and determine where he may have sourced these items.

01:38:51.860 Mm-hmm.

01:38:53.480 And how about you, James?

01:38:54.420 What do you think?

01:38:55.600 Well, I enjoyed listening to you all earlier.

01:38:58.300 And just a couple of things.

01:38:59.640 I'm going to go out on a little bit of a limb here.

01:39:01.560 I'm not so convinced this is a guy.

01:39:03.900 Until I can have absolute proof that this is a male, the eyes seem like eyeliner.

01:39:10.640 I wouldn't put it past being a woman.

01:39:12.380 It does look like he's wearing eyeliner.

01:39:14.240 Thank you for saying that.

01:39:15.340 It does look like he's wearing eyeliner in the one shot.

01:39:18.020 So I'm not going to go there.

01:39:20.620 I will say a friend of ours, James Gaglione, has been on site there, and he said how dark it is, that area.

01:39:27.720 And to me, that would certainly explain this silly carrying of the firearm. 0.60

01:39:32.480 Well, if he was getting, like Fitz was saying, if he's getting out of a car and walking up to the house, then putting it in a stupid way that he's carrying it or the person's carrying the firearm, I don't see the problem with that one. 0.83

01:39:44.060 Because no one's going to see it. 0.51

01:39:45.200 It's so dark there. 1.00

01:39:46.580 No one's going to see the stupid carry of the firearm. 1.00

01:39:50.620 So, and lastly, I would just say that we can, yeah, he looks, he or she looks stupid and looks strange and doing some strange things. 1.00

01:39:59.140 But let's not discount the success here. 0.99

01:40:01.540 It has been 10 days.

01:40:02.980 We have not heard a word.

01:40:04.220 We are no closer to catching this person.

01:40:07.120 And they've been on the run now for 10 days.

01:40:09.560 And the FBI is the best in the business.

01:40:11.920 And they haven't caught him. 0.98

01:40:12.740 So, he's not completely stupid. 0.97

01:40:14.780 And, you know, I. 0.98

01:40:16.260 James, let me ask you a follow-up.

01:40:17.960 Good point.

01:40:19.220 You were at the FBI for almost 25 years, I think.

01:40:23.480 You worked kidnappings.

01:40:24.980 Like, is this, does this look like a professional kidnapping?

01:40:28.600 Like, is kidnapping even common?

01:40:30.900 No, it's extremely rare.

01:40:32.760 And, you know, I was saying earlier to somebody in 23 years in law enforcement, I think I worked two of them.

01:40:37.980 And so, unless you're in New York or L.A. in the hotbed of these things, it doesn't happen a lot.

01:40:43.200 And what you see frequently is they happen in these places like we're seeing here.

01:40:47.620 And the police don't have a lot of experience working these types of cases.

01:40:51.320 They're very rare.

01:40:52.600 Why?

01:40:53.120 Because, you know, somebody, it's a lot easier to kill somebody than to kidnap them.

01:40:57.700 And why?

01:40:58.520 Because something's going to, you know, there's usually some type of a struggle.

01:41:02.620 There's some type of injury.

01:41:04.020 We saw it with, you know, Sidney Reza with Exxon.

01:41:06.440 We're seeing it now.

01:41:07.480 You know, in this case, there's her blood on the porch. 1.00

01:41:09.900 It's very difficult to kidnap somebody.

01:41:11.740 And they're just very rarely done.

01:41:13.380 The thing I don't like about this case is we have not had any proof of life.

01:41:16.980 Communications through a TMZ, the kidnappings I've been involved in, go right to the family.

01:41:21.520 They go to where the money is.

01:41:22.740 They want to get the money.

01:41:24.300 You know, that's why they did the kidnapping.

01:41:25.640 I mean, this whole thing has been very strange to me as I'm looking at it from an outsider.

01:41:31.180 Well, how, in their defense, like, is it, sorry, is it 20, or, you know, we're 90, hard to the break, and then we'll come back.

01:41:37.260 But it's not going to be easy to get Savannah Guthrie's phone number.

01:41:40.860 You know, like, how do the kidnappers normally get the contact information of the family?

01:41:45.540 Yeah, well, the same way they got her mother.

01:41:47.760 You know, they can contact the family.

01:41:49.760 The family will, you know, it's pretty well known.

01:41:52.560 You contact the police, and police are in contact with the family.

01:41:54.980 You contact the FBI, and they'll put you in touch.

01:41:57.800 I mean, that's not that difficult to go through Levin at TMZ.

01:42:01.620 That's just bizarre to me.

01:42:02.820 Why would you do that?

01:42:04.960 Why would you do that?

01:42:06.160 I mean, is it for attention?

01:42:07.320 Because you're enjoying seeing your story in the news?

01:42:11.440 I mean, I have seen occasions, Megan, where a third party will be utilized.

01:42:15.460 I mean, but it does, it is very counterintuitive to the fact that one of the biggest enemies to a kidnapper, if this is indeed a kidnapping, is media publicity.

01:42:26.080 And the greater the publicity that takes place, and I've worked a couple of cases, where because it garnished so much media attention, it actually didn't end in a very positive outcome, obviously for the hostage.

01:42:37.540 So I would agree with James, TMZ is an interesting choice, but certainly in terms of using a third party.

01:42:44.260 So you hear, like, this may be just movie stuff, and forgive me for interrupting you.

01:42:47.960 We're going to continue this, though, as we take a break.

01:42:49.760 But normally you hear them saying, like, don't involve the police and don't involve anybody and keep it on the down low.

01:42:54.760 They want to keep it under the radar, not here.

01:42:57.680 We're right back.

01:42:58.580 Quick break.

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01:44:47.800 We have more now with our FBI and security experts now, but just want to read you a statement from the FBI on activity today that they released a short time ago.

01:45:00.820 This morning, numerous FBI agents are conducting an extensive search along multiple roadways in the Catalina Foothills area related to the Nancy Guthrie investigation,

01:45:10.660 asking the media to follow all traffic laws and so on.

01:45:13.600 So that's how they describe it.

01:45:15.100 They say extensive search along multiple roadways in the Catalina Foothills area.

01:45:19.740 We're told by producers on site that they are now, today, focused on the area where Nancy Guthrie lived.

01:45:27.900 Yesterday was where Annie Guthrie and Tomas, her husband, lived, describing it as, quote, extensive searches.

01:45:35.540 So, covering both locations, bit by bit and over and over and over again.

01:45:45.620 I mean, can we just talk about what you guys think that means?

01:45:48.440 Like, haven't they found all the physical clues by now that are there to find?

01:45:54.880 It's like virtually every day they're out there.

01:45:57.060 You're shaking your head no, Maureen.

01:45:58.820 Why?

01:46:00.000 Because being on the evidence response team and also being part of, you know, being a case agent involved in a lot of these cases,

01:46:08.380 especially when you open a tip line.

01:46:10.120 So as soon as they offer that $50,000 reward, that just opened the floodgates that, as everyone here,

01:46:16.440 certainly those of us in the Bureau can attest to.

01:46:18.800 And when they open those floodgates, you're going to get a whole bunch of other tips.

01:46:22.220 For example, you're going to get phone calls saying, hey, on the day after she disappeared or late that night,

01:46:29.220 I was driving by a highway, whatever, and right here at the mile marker 32, I saw a car pulled over and parked or whatever.

01:46:37.200 Then you've got all the technical stuff going on in the background that we talked about with the geofencing and everything.

01:46:43.000 And if they opened it up and looked at the hours afterwards and such and such, they'll notice that two devices were stopped on the side of the road someplace or the other.

01:46:54.920 You know, so even they're checking all these things out as they come in and as they're developing throughout the investigation.

01:47:03.000 It's very fluid and it's very intensive.

01:47:09.060 James Hamilton, is it, what do we glean from the fact that they keep going back to Annie and Tomas' home and neighborhood?

01:47:19.340 Nancy had eaten dinner with them that night, allegedly played games and was dropped off back at her house, which is, I'm told, four miles or 10 minutes away.

01:47:29.900 So why, I mean, I don't want to jump to conclusions about that couple, but that is not, we're told, the crime scene.

01:47:38.580 So why are they so obsessed with canvassing that neighborhood and that backyard?

01:47:43.300 Yeah, I don't think you're jumping to conclusions at all.

01:47:45.640 You always start with who saw the victim last.

01:47:47.960 And in this case, that's who saw Ms. Guthrie last. 1.00

01:47:51.300 So that makes complete sense that they're going to, you know, run that to ground and continue to look at that story.

01:47:57.120 And, you know, don't forget, kidnappings, like we were saying earlier, they're very, very difficult.

01:48:01.480 And so this, you know, indication there's more searching going on.

01:48:05.500 This is a very desolate area.

01:48:06.700 This isn't Manhattan.

01:48:08.160 It's possible there's, you know, a place to put a body in a lot of different places.

01:48:11.620 And remember, this kidnapping, obviously, there was some violence.

01:48:14.840 And we know there's a heart issue.

01:48:16.880 So either the violence could have caused some, you know, God forbid she died during the kidnapping or shortly thereafter, or her heart, God forbid, stopped.

01:48:24.680 And now this kidnapper's stuck with this dead body.

01:48:26.900 What's he going to do, right?

01:48:28.120 He's not going to get any money for it if that was his intent, was to kidnap, to get the money.

01:48:31.840 Now what are you going to do?

01:48:33.140 Well, you know, maybe you dump it.

01:48:35.040 And then you just, you know, drive away.

01:48:36.760 And so there's going to be, like Maureen was saying, people giving tips, saying, hey, I saw this.

01:48:41.540 You know, no one's talked about this white van.

01:48:43.200 That's a whole good lead.

01:48:44.360 No one seemed to want to talk about it.

01:48:45.720 I'd love to talk about it.

01:48:46.680 But, you know, that's what you're seeing here.

01:48:49.540 I'm shocked that there's a very specialized unit of dogs that the FBI has.

01:48:54.280 That can track a lot of things.

01:48:55.900 I'm surprised they haven't been deployed.

01:48:57.340 Maybe they have.

01:48:58.500 But things like that, I would have been expected to see by now.

01:49:03.760 Will, you're shaking your head yes.

01:49:04.940 Yeah, I mean, a couple of things I'd probably pick up on, Megan, from your comments about the interest in family members or close family members.

01:49:14.260 Well, the first thing that I got taught when I first learned kidnap and ransom negotiation was the 70% rule.

01:49:22.160 And it still prevails to this day.

01:49:24.380 And that is that in most kidnappings, if this is indeed a kidnapping, in 70% of cases, there will be someone connected to the victim that will be working in close proximity or will be a family member.

01:49:37.700 And I think through the process of obviously elimination, the feds are going to have to look very much at the family very, very closely to see whether they are a viable prospect in terms of being suspects or whether they can be discounted from their inquiries.

01:49:53.380 And just to cover on a point that James made, I've negotiated on the return of a dead body.

01:49:59.920 So, again, depending on who the group is, I agree with James that, yes, if he does have the frail Nancy on his hands and she passes away, he may or they may potentially discard the body.

01:50:13.520 But if there's a slightly more professional element behind it, they may still continue to negotiate against that for the return of it.

01:50:21.720 I think the key issue here really is the proof of life or lack thereof of.

01:50:27.220 Go ahead, Fitz, I can see you want to get in.

01:50:29.060 Yeah.

01:50:29.660 And historically speaking, everything that's being said here in the last few minutes is accurate.

01:50:34.040 The last known, and I'll touch on a few subjects, and I'm going to be corrected here, but the last known for-profit kidnapping of which we are aware took place in the outskirts of Oslo, Norway.

01:50:46.680 And the media was not involved or told about that for weeks after it happened.

01:50:51.940 Kidnapping note was left at the table.

01:50:53.860 She's missing.

01:50:54.740 Body never recovered.

01:50:55.960 Husband was arrested, then released thereafter.

01:50:58.880 We brought up Sidney Riso.

01:51:00.260 I did early last week.

01:51:01.540 The Exxon executive.

01:51:02.440 He died four days into his captivity.

01:51:05.360 Those kidnappers kept it up for 50-plus days after that, trying to get the money.

01:51:11.160 Husband and wife team eventually arrested. 0.74

01:51:12.840 We talked about some of that last week.

01:51:14.840 And to go back to the search aspects of it, there's never a wrong search or a bad search.

01:51:19.960 I mean, as long as it's legal with consent, things we've all discussed already so far.

01:51:24.040 And there's nothing wrong with re-interviewing, re-re-re-interviewing, you know, multiple times people as new information comes up.

01:51:30.820 So, to me, it doesn't necessarily put any more of a suspicion on family members when agents are going back.

01:51:38.100 The other thing I'll throw out there, I haven't heard this mentioned at all by anyone in the media.

01:51:42.560 And I've been to Phoenix a few times.

01:51:44.480 I'm not sure.

01:51:45.080 Tucson.

01:51:45.360 Tucson, I know it's not a lake-filled or pond-filled area, but I'm sure there are reservoirs or retaining ponds, pools, whatever they call them.

01:51:55.280 I've heard nothing about any dive teams going into them anywhere along the way.

01:51:59.180 And maybe someone here has.

01:52:00.500 But that's something that should also be considered.

01:52:02.820 Again, I'm not looking for Mrs. Guthrie's here necessarily, but certainly tools, elements of the crime, anywhere along any sort of egress, that's something they may want to consider if they haven't already.

01:52:14.800 We predicted this, and now it hits via TMZ, that the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Department are homing in on the outfit, the presumed kidnapper war.

01:52:24.320 As he approached the front door, they are on the hunt for who bought the items.

01:52:27.840 Law enforcement sources involved in the investigation tell TMZ, they singled out three items in particular, those gloves, Maureen, the backpack, and the gun visible on the Nest video.

01:52:40.960 We're told authorities are contacting manufacturers and retailers to figure out who may have purchased the items, the gloves, the backpack, and the gun.

01:52:49.900 What's interesting to me is like, maybe not the gloves, but like the backpack and the gun, that's something.

01:52:56.020 Guns are big in America, and they're big in the Southwest.

01:52:59.640 It's not unusual to find somebody out there with a gun, and it's not unusual to find anybody with a backpack.

01:53:05.820 A face mask that, you know, you wear that where I grew up in Syracuse, New York.

01:53:11.000 That's, everyone's got one.

01:53:12.680 But in Tucson?

01:53:14.040 Yeah.

01:53:15.580 Yeah, exactly.

01:53:16.720 You can wear it down to get your mail if you want to have your face when you get back inside.

01:53:19.820 But this, that to me seems very suspicious. 0.98

01:53:23.260 In any event, they, of course, are going to do that because we saw in Kohlberger, as clever as he was in some ways, he bought that damn K-Bar knife on Amazon. 0.98

01:53:35.020 On Amazon. 0.61

01:53:35.800 So even someone named Brian Kohlberger was brilliant in some ways, but like made such elemental mistakes.

01:53:44.580 So I get, they're probably checking the Amazon histories of all the family and maybe contractors who show up at the house, right?

01:53:53.800 Like, and then beyond that, you got to go the other end of the transaction, the sellers.

01:53:57.940 That you can't just go to Amazon and say, who bought a face mask?

01:54:00.760 Can you?

01:54:01.080 I don't, I don't know if you can, but you definitely can go to the retail stores and say, do you sell this backpack?

01:54:06.520 Look at it.

01:54:06.820 And it was very distinctive looking.

01:54:08.100 I still haven't figured out whether those are lights on his shoulder straps or reflective patches, you know, but it's a very distinctive backpack.

01:54:15.380 And we have both the front and the back of it pictured.

01:54:17.680 Very helpful, no?

01:54:19.380 Very helpful.

01:54:20.300 Very helpful.

01:54:20.880 I think, I think it's, you've highlighted the key areas as far as I'm concerned, which are the most identifiable in trying to obviously trace the VAR arm, I agree.

01:54:28.940 I think even in terms of the ski mask, I think that that could be a lost leader in trying to follow inquiries on that.

01:54:35.420 It would be very difficult.

01:54:36.760 And who knows, maybe he knitted it or a family member knitted it.

01:54:40.960 I mean, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's been bought from a retail store.

01:54:45.540 But I think the backpack, certainly, the trousers, certainly, the jacket, certainly, those are the three areas I'd be most concentrating on.

01:54:52.380 One of our audience members is pointing out, can we play the video where he, he realizes that he can't, he's got to turn around, he's got to go back out and get the vegetation, and where he bends down.

01:55:02.040 And, and she raised something that I actually have, has been gnawing at me too.

01:55:06.000 Is there something wrong with this guy's leg or knee?

01:55:09.180 Because, watch, like, when he turns around and goes back out there, hold on, he's trying to do his little tap, tap thing to get the Nest camera off, which does not work.

01:55:18.500 Stand by. Okay, now he's backing up.

01:55:21.520 Okay, so, like, where he bends over there, he doesn't look very facile.

01:55:25.620 He doesn't look very limber.

01:55:27.400 And, and when he bends over there, he doesn't look like the most limber person either.

01:55:32.440 Just made me wonder, I'm really going out on a limb here, but, like, the calmness with, with which he executed the crime and maybe an injury.

01:55:43.280 Could you possibly be looking for somebody, you know, former law enforcement, that's who committed that Exxon kidnapping, former law enforcement.

01:55:52.340 Or, was he former, Jim, or was he current?

01:55:54.800 Anyway, he was definitely law enforcement.

01:55:56.060 Former and former Exxon security, which, of course, was Exxon security vice president who was kidnapped.

01:56:00.360 Okay.

01:56:03.160 I don't know.

01:56:04.200 I guess you guys, I think, might conclude, based on what you told me yesterday, Maureen and Fitz, that probably not former law enforcement, given the way he's holding that gun.

01:56:12.540 That doesn't, right?

01:56:13.700 And so then maybe not former military either.

01:56:15.920 But I, he's altering the way he walks when he, when he approaches the front porch and the camera, because, you know, people can say, oh, he, he is, looks surprised that there's a camera.

01:56:31.020 But virtual, what we know is how he's dressed.

01:56:34.440 He's dressed to conceal his identity.

01:56:38.140 He has, he has a set of gloves under the nitrile gloves.

01:56:41.420 He may have leggings on under those pants to make him look a little bit heavier than he is in, in, or her, which I don't know.

01:56:50.340 That facial hair looks pretty legit, but what do I know?

01:56:54.220 So I, I think it's an altered gait just on the off chance that someone gets some video off this thing, or if he can't destroy the camera right away or whatever his plan was.

01:57:05.240 Because he definitely, 100%, is altering the way he walks and his stance as he approaches that camera.

01:57:13.500 Would you guys agree with that?

01:57:14.700 It doesn't look natural.

01:57:16.960 But most likely for utilitarian purposes, as opposed to a nagging injury of some sort.

01:57:22.660 We can't rule it out, of course, but he currently has his head down and he has a big backpack on.

01:57:27.420 We don't know how heavy that thing is and what's in there, of course.

01:57:31.220 So his gait is going to be a little bit, you know, sort of off in that regard.

01:57:35.920 He may have had some practice runs.

01:57:37.360 Let's not forget, too, all the things they're looking for.

01:57:39.440 I'm not sure they sell flashlights that strictly are designed for the mouth, that you push the button, you know, and you squeeze it somehow and the light goes on.

01:57:48.620 That's something else I'm hoping.

01:57:49.800 There can't be too many people that buy those things within 100 miles of Tucson.

01:57:54.980 So I'm hoping that is something they focus on.

01:57:57.380 It could be a clue like that, that Roy helps.

01:58:00.040 There were some astute, astute viewers who wrote in about that, what looks like a mouth flashlight of some kind.

01:58:05.560 It is.

01:58:06.340 Saying that, that you would have to remove from your mouth with your gloves.

01:58:12.620 And there could be a transfer of, you know, your saliva onto the exterior of your gloves.

01:58:18.260 And those gloves then had to touch things in Nancy's home. 0.97

01:58:21.040 So, like, that's actually somewhat promising.

01:58:23.200 This guy probably does have his own saliva remnants on those gloves and definitely used the gloved hands to go into the home and hurt Nancy and get Nancy.

01:58:32.840 And I'm sure he touched something.

01:58:34.180 Go ahead.

01:58:34.280 There's one thing I wanted to say about that transfer because that's a very good point.

01:58:38.200 That is a mouth flashlight and you turn it off and on by biting on it.

01:58:43.080 A lot of apparently airline mechanics and stuff like that or people that deal with wires and stuff, they'll use it so that their hands can remain free while they do their work.

01:58:53.420 And it's pretty much the same technology as those headlamp ones that you get.

01:58:58.780 But with regard to the gloves, a lot of people always think that I'm wearing gloves, my DNA can't get anywhere.

01:59:05.480 But everyone underestimates the number of times they touch their face no matter what.

01:59:11.840 Like, you know, I mean, just going like this and now you touch something.

01:59:16.900 So, that's going to be the DNA stuff.

01:59:19.360 And the way you find that sometimes, like even if we look at when they took Nancy's car out of the garage, it could have been something as simple as when they went back in there and they turned off the lights and they turned on their flashlights.

01:59:34.700 I used flashlights extensively.

01:59:36.860 And you could see that there's an area where the dust has been swiped away.

01:59:41.240 That's an area you want to look at and you want to test.

01:59:43.660 You're certainly not going to test the entire vehicle as a general rule.

01:59:47.200 But if there's an area like that where the dust is disturbed, that's where it got swiped and that's where the transfer potentially could have occurred.

01:59:56.620 Well, let me ask you, Will and James, what you think.

01:59:58.740 Because we ran this by our other panelists yesterday.

02:00:01.340 There's one photo in the series that's been released by Kash Patel that shows, we think, this same abductor farther back without the backpack.

02:00:12.500 And you can't see his face at all.

02:00:16.440 It's either because the camera is too pixelated, that's what we were speculating yesterday, or maybe he's turned it around entirely.

02:00:23.280 But here's the shot.

02:00:24.680 You cannot see any sort of a backpack whatsoever.

02:00:28.020 I don't think you can see the gun.

02:00:30.440 We zoomed in on it yesterday.

02:00:31.900 And you cannot see the holes for the eyes or the mouth.

02:00:37.300 And this, too, was released to us by the FBI.

02:00:40.000 Now, I can go with maybe pixelation too far away on the face mask, I guess.

02:00:45.920 But no backpack?

02:00:46.980 The backpack?

02:00:47.640 There was all this reflective stuff and the lights or whatever's on it.

02:00:50.260 Like, what do you think we're seeing there?

02:00:53.080 I mean, just jumping in there, James, if you don't mind.

02:00:56.540 There's a couple of quick questions, Megan.

02:00:59.060 Were you given actually unedited footage which ran continually, or are these just snapshots which were provided by the Bureau?

02:01:07.340 So, yes, again, they may not necessarily be consecutive.

02:01:10.660 There may have been an initial probe.

02:01:12.560 Sometimes they will make an initial approach to see, is there anybody else in the house?

02:01:17.680 Is it undisturbed?

02:01:19.000 You know, is there just one person there?

02:01:20.340 It's quiet.

02:01:21.040 Everyone's gone to bed.

02:01:22.380 So, you know, he may have returned or she may have returned to go and get that backpack from their vehicle and then make that actual approach.

02:01:30.540 So it could have been an initial probe.

02:01:32.140 But the thing that, certainly before I pass to James, the thing that really confuses me, and I'm sure I'd love to hear the opinions of the others, is there are so many contradictions in this whole method of approach.

02:01:46.140 He's using a torch which has to be activated by the mouth rather than a head torch.

02:01:49.940 And it's not a question of him being necessarily seen by anybody with a head torch because he's carrying his weapon obviously outside of his waistband.

02:01:58.780 So, and again, the gloves, the mask, the ill-preparedness for actually removing the ring doorbell, there are so many contradictions here from what could have been professional to what's somewhat of a clown show and amateur.

02:02:13.280 So, yes, totally.

02:02:16.160 Go ahead, James.

02:02:16.980 Yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of this.

02:02:18.940 I was looking at the picture to see if the shoes were the same, to make sure we've got, you know, the same person and maybe not.

02:02:24.460 A lot of our online sleuths watching us on YouTube say the shoes look different to them, that the shoes from, you know, faceless man look different from the shoes.

02:02:32.700 But overall, I would say it looks very similar to the guy who we know approached the door.

02:02:37.460 Yeah, when we're doing, like, surveillance training, we're always taught, you know, shoes, watches, and glasses, people don't usually change those.

02:02:44.540 And so I always kind of look there first.

02:02:46.660 And this person's shoes are different.

02:02:48.780 So is it two people?

02:02:50.140 I don't know.

02:02:50.900 It might be the same person.

02:02:52.400 They're wearing the same outfit.

02:02:53.880 It could be two.

02:02:55.560 The eye holes missing is odd.

02:02:57.580 But I think I agree with Will.

02:03:00.460 It's quite possible.

02:03:02.340 This is the early.

02:03:03.260 They came up, approached, see what they're dealing with.

02:03:05.740 Then they come back with the backpack.

02:03:07.500 And then they do this, you know, silliness with the flowers to do the obfuscation of the camera.

02:03:13.500 But for me, this looks like a probing in the beginning before the actual act.

02:03:19.020 You know, that's what I'm seeing.

02:03:20.560 If you guys looked at Twitter yesterday at all, after all this came out, you definitely saw AI images of this guy.

02:03:26.160 I mean, I saw them, too.

02:03:27.900 They're very kind of delicious to look at because it's like, aha, the answer.

02:03:32.220 But, you know, we would never show them on the air because it's not responsible and it's not real.

02:03:35.980 But could it be?

02:03:37.560 Like, is there some AI technology?

02:03:39.380 Did you want to speak to it, Fitz?

02:03:40.500 Like, can AI be of help in turning these images into something closer to a picture of the guy?

02:03:48.580 And this is one of the categories we can speculate a lot here among the five of us.

02:03:51.900 And everyone has a valid opinion here.

02:03:54.320 But as we well know, the FBI has not released everything.

02:03:58.520 I'm not even sure what the count is of what's out there.

02:04:00.460 A few videos, a few still shots.

02:04:03.280 So they have everything.

02:04:04.740 And they have the best experts and the best technology in the world to enhance what we're looking at and also what is what hasn't been released yet.

02:04:12.800 And they're trying to put that information together, whether there is scenes of the person without the backpack and then other ones with them.

02:04:20.120 They would know that by their timeline.

02:04:21.900 We don't have these any sort of chronological order of which we are aware.

02:04:27.280 The only thing I want to add in here real quick, I tried to get in earlier, and I think I mentioned it very quickly yesterday, is when I started on the Unabomb task force, there was a subunit, a subsquad that thought, you know, the Zodiac killer was now the Unabomb.

02:04:41.000 One of my first rendered opinions as a new profiler there.

02:04:44.740 No, not connected, not connected at all.

02:04:46.860 But I've always had a fascination in the Zodiac case.

02:04:48.920 I did not work it at all.

02:04:51.300 Well, I wonder if this guy is some kind of a Zodiac aficionado in that how he dresses, even how he carries the gun.

02:04:57.140 There are pictures of Zodiac sketches, I should say, not pictures, composite type sketches from surviving victims in which he is sort of armed up with a hoodie such as that he has some kind of a symbol on the front, maybe the Zodiac symbol, and he carries guns and other weapons on the side of them.

02:05:14.780 Some kind of a backpack, I believe, over the years I've seen it.

02:05:17.660 So, again, this may or may not solve the case, but if there's anyone out there that's interesting, though, did Zodiac, I can't get all my serial killers straight, but was Zodiac, what was his favorite, like, what was his M.O.?

02:05:31.040 Who was he targeting?

02:05:31.980 Late 60s, San Francisco area, the Bay Area. 0.99

02:05:35.020 He would find couples and an individual woman pull cards over and brutally kill them and rape them, at least some of them.

02:05:43.540 And he was always dressed head to toe in a bizarre, you know, hoodie or a mask, I should say, with just holes in it, with a symbol on at least one of the descriptions.

02:05:54.300 Other witnesses, well, there were other witnesses that didn't survive.

02:05:58.260 So they're victims, of course.

02:06:00.140 And so, and of course, if anyone cuts and edits what we're talking about here, I'm not saying this is the Zodiac killer in any way, shape, or form.

02:06:08.620 But as a someone, there's a lot of people out there, I get emails all the time that, hey, what do you think about this part of the Zodiac case?

02:06:15.840 And I may ignore them, I may put a few responses out there.

02:06:19.300 I just can't rule out that this guy has some sort of an interest in that, and maybe that's how he could have set himself up, hanging the gun the way he did.

02:06:25.660 There's at least one picture.

02:06:26.760 My team found the sketch.

02:06:27.820 There's at least one picture of him, obviously a hood.

02:06:30.760 Incredibly scary.

02:06:32.400 And there's other pictures or descriptions where there was guns at the side, big knives, etc.

02:06:37.340 And he was ready to go.

02:06:38.560 And I thought even some kind of a backpack, at least a description.

02:06:42.160 And it's just something to keep in mind that this guy may have had some interest.

02:06:46.520 So again, all the descriptors we gave early on for behavioral issues with this guy, description, and pre-offense, post-offense.

02:06:54.000 Hey, the guy happens to have talked about the Zodiac killer in the past or really likes that movie from 2006 or 2007.

02:07:01.380 Call the FBI.

02:07:03.300 Well, that's a great point.

02:07:05.560 The other case that we've been talking about here and there, and I know, James, you've done lots of work in this field, is the Rebecca Schaefer case.

02:07:16.900 And, you know, she was a celebrity in Los Angeles. 0.77

02:07:20.540 She was very young.

02:07:21.380 I think she was 19 years old.

02:07:22.520 She was an aspiring star.

02:07:23.860 She was starring in My Sister Sam underneath Pam Dauber, who was the older sister.

02:07:27.980 And we actually, we forgot completely that our pal, Marsha Clark, of O.J. Simpson prosecution fame, was the prosecutor on this case.

02:07:38.080 But what happened to Rebecca Schaefer in 1991 was, she was 21, was a man named Robert Bardo, who was obsessed.

02:07:47.480 He was an erotomaniac, wrote her a series of letters.

02:07:52.960 She wrote a generic thank you for your interest card back. 0.99

02:07:56.020 Um, Marsha writes in her book, quote, it was enough to make the twisted son of a bitch think they had made some kind of connection. 0.97

02:08:03.080 Bardo hired a private investigator who gave him Rebecca's address. 0.98

02:08:08.000 He showed up at her apartment with a bag containing copies of his letters to her, a paperback of the catcher in the rye, and her publicity photo and a gun.

02:08:18.480 When he rang her doorbell, Rebecca answered it herself.

02:08:21.160 She shook his hand, but then shut the door on him.

02:08:24.080 Which is just, this is right up Gavin DeBecker's.

02:08:26.360 I know you worked with him for years, James.

02:08:28.620 But we ignore the gift of fear.

02:08:31.640 Like, so many women do it. 1.00

02:08:33.040 We ignore the gift of fear.

02:08:34.200 She shook his hand and shut the door on him. 0.67

02:08:36.260 But she opened it again.

02:08:38.540 Because he went to a nearby restaurant.

02:08:40.460 He went into a men's restroom to load the last chamber in his handgun.

02:08:44.620 And then he returned to her apartment.

02:08:46.520 When she came to answer the buzzer, he gestured that he wanted to give her something.

02:08:51.800 So she sees him again, the man she was so afraid of, she shut the door on him.

02:08:55.500 And she opened the door and he shot her point blank through the heart.

02:09:00.300 Um, this case, of course, haunts any public figure because it's, you have so little chance

02:09:08.540 of protecting yourself.

02:09:10.320 And I just, as somebody, we all, we all revert to our priors.

02:09:13.860 Of course, whenever you're trying to solve something, when you're in my role, you guys

02:09:16.760 are smart enough to not to do that.

02:09:18.320 But like in news, um, we revert to our priors a lot.

02:09:22.600 And from the beginning, I have wondered whether this is a Robert Bardo type situation, somebody

02:09:30.940 possibly obsessed with Savannah, you can't get to her.

02:09:34.420 Like, I know where Savannah lives.

02:09:36.640 You, you cannot get to her.

02:09:38.060 Thank God.

02:09:38.920 But you can get to the soft target, as Will was saying earlier, James, of her mom.

02:09:43.900 And maybe that's enough for you.

02:09:47.400 Yeah.

02:09:47.980 I mean, that's a road that we go down a lot.

02:09:50.540 Um, I don't know, Savannah, I don't know her background with regards to, you know, I'm

02:09:55.120 sure, I'm sure she's got stalkers. 0.94

02:09:56.840 I'm sure she's got people who are obsessed with her.

02:09:59.240 Um, certainly, I hope she's sharing that information, not only her security team, sharing

02:10:03.600 it with the FBI, the people working this case, uh, there's probably some specific people that

02:10:08.320 they have identified what we call pursuers.

02:10:10.840 Hopefully they've turned that over to the FBI and hopefully they're looking into those individuals

02:10:15.000 and their whereabouts.

02:10:15.880 And hopefully they have, you know, some type of alibi for their where being on where they

02:10:19.960 were on, you know, on the first.

02:10:21.840 Um, but certainly there, there's a concern there and that's one of the avenues, you know,

02:10:25.960 the challenge of this case is you're, we just sit here for an hour.

02:10:29.780 We've come up with like eight different avenues and the investigators, they're all pursuing it.

02:10:35.100 And like you were talking about a needle in a haystack with Google or, you know, the searches

02:10:39.000 of the, of the, um, you know, the, the area, this is going to continue.

02:10:43.960 Every time we get a phone call, um, they're going to go down another trail.

02:10:48.180 Um, and certainly you can't discount the people who wanted to get to Savannah saw she had visible

02:10:53.100 security and they just moved to a family member who, and don't forget someone that she clearly 0.99

02:10:58.740 had a positive relationship with.

02:11:00.920 Notice it was her mom.

02:11:02.160 They didn't grab the sister.

02:11:03.560 They didn't grab her brother.

02:11:04.600 Right.

02:11:05.060 So maybe they saw these, you know, as you're publishing these photos of her and her mother,

02:11:09.660 that it looks like a very good relationship.

02:11:11.080 I don't know anything about it, but it looks from the outside, like a good, healthy relationship.

02:11:15.700 And maybe these, you know, this crazy guy's like, yeah, I can't get to her, but I sure

02:11:19.780 as hell can go get to the mom that could definitely, I would never rule something like that out for 0.95

02:11:24.620 sure.

02:11:25.040 Cause the Bardo case, you know, and there's so many like that. 1.00

02:11:28.280 Um, that's, that's how it happens.

02:11:29.840 That target transference.

02:11:32.140 And you'd never, you know, you'd never know, like in the Bardo case, he showed up with his

02:11:37.480 letters.

02:11:37.920 He, I guess he kept copies of his letters and he showed up with those letters, which

02:11:41.440 were meaningful to him.

02:11:42.320 I've told the audience before I had my own quote, erratomaniac stalker.

02:11:46.240 It was a very serious situation.

02:11:47.940 He wound up going away for 10 years, um, for what he did.

02:11:51.460 And one of the things he did was he left letters for me all around Washington, DC, like in national

02:11:58.080 cathedral and other at the CIA, like stacks of letters for me, which then he would contact

02:12:04.300 me and say, like, I, I hid the letters for you.

02:12:06.420 Like this is where you should find them stuff like that, which is very bizarre, but this

02:12:10.900 is communication that I was allegedly quote receiving from him that I had no idea about.

02:12:15.720 And so if this were happening to Savannah, she might not even know.

02:12:19.000 I do know for a fact, she's had at least one serious stalker.

02:12:22.360 Um, and I just think like, you know, we have to be open-minded to that because when I see

02:12:29.600 this guy, I don't think he's a cartel member.

02:12:32.780 He doesn't project competent or vicious or efficient enough for that.

02:12:36.800 It doesn't look like a professional hitman.

02:12:39.140 Um, he doesn't look military to me, but if you ask me, could it be the erratomaniac lane? 0.82

02:12:46.820 Yes, that yes.

02:12:48.860 And also I'm not going to lie. 0.96

02:12:50.760 If you ask me, could it be murder for hire type of loser that, you know, you see in some 0.95

02:12:56.880 of these cases? 0.93

02:12:57.560 Yes.

02:12:57.960 Right.

02:12:58.260 Like murder for hire guys are not James Bond imitations.

02:13:04.320 They tend to be like, I'm sorry, forgive me. 0.99

02:13:07.160 Like fat losers who need money and have some sort of criminal history. 0.99

02:13:12.460 And so they say yes, when nobody else would, and then show up like a doofus, not understanding 0.99

02:13:16.620 how to get the ring camera out of there, but they don't really give a damn because they 0.75

02:13:20.100 got the mask on and there's one thing they got to do and they're going to get a $5,000

02:13:23.020 check out of this.

02:13:23.900 So that's that.

02:13:25.040 Am I right?

02:13:25.580 Oh yeah.

02:13:26.120 Cash more than check, but yeah.

02:13:29.500 I jump in on your theory, Megan, I think, which is quite solid.

02:13:33.360 I mean, in terms of a stalker or a fixated person, as we would call them, I've worked

02:13:37.320 a number of these cases and certainly I, and this may also explain why the FBI are also

02:13:43.320 continuing their inquiries with Savannah's sister.

02:13:46.580 So there's a possibility.

02:13:48.520 I've had cases where fixated people have actually approached fellow family members because they

02:13:54.360 can't get to their primary fixation.

02:13:57.540 So there's always a possibility that maybe the FBI are visiting with the sister to try and

02:14:02.980 gather information from them or from neighbors, associates, colleagues to see whether they'd

02:14:08.940 been approached by anybody who had a fixation on Savannah.

02:14:13.620 That's a great question.

02:14:14.880 And I will tell you, when I was dealing with that stalker, one of the first things the security

02:14:19.880 teams told me was make sure you go to your neighbors, all of your neighbors and tell them,

02:14:26.260 I mean, I do actually have brothers, but like to tell them, no one's going to come looking

02:14:32.680 for me from my family.

02:14:33.940 If anybody comes looking for me, saying they're related to me, you don't know me.

02:14:38.080 You have no idea where I am, who I am.

02:14:40.260 Like give no information out because they did say in a lot of these cases, they'll go to the

02:14:45.520 neighbors around you, to friends.

02:14:48.120 They'll pretend that they know you and try to extract information out.

02:14:51.860 And so, again, it may just be me reverting to my priors, but it's been a serious worry

02:14:57.680 of mine from the start.

02:14:58.400 You have to learn from that though, Megan.

02:14:59.280 I mean, you learned from it, which is what you have to do when something like this happens

02:15:05.220 to you.

02:15:06.600 What you're doing is good.

02:15:08.740 And it's trusting your gut now.

02:15:10.740 You know, your gut has changed and you're now in a different place.

02:15:14.560 For sure.

02:15:15.020 And let's not forget the granddaddy of all these types of stalker cases.

02:15:18.780 John Pinkley tried to assassinate President Reagan.

02:15:21.860 To get in better graces with Jodie Foster because he somehow couldn't get close to her.

02:15:27.380 In my fourth book, A Journey to the Center of Mind Book Four, I actually have a chapter

02:15:31.940 in there about how I met Ann Coulter.

02:15:34.260 She had a crazy stalker going after her.

02:15:36.720 I actually agreed to meet the guy in Washington, D.C.

02:15:39.340 Some time off.

02:15:40.380 I'm actually sort of negotiating with the stalker about, you know, how to sort of alleviate

02:15:45.520 the problem for Ann.

02:15:47.260 And since then, I've been in touch with Ann.

02:15:49.200 And she's had some other problems over the years.

02:15:51.840 But this guy was the worst.

02:15:53.420 And he was going through all kinds of means.

02:15:55.180 Luckily, never anything physical against her.

02:15:57.560 But these guys are out there.

02:15:59.720 And Megan, I think one of the first words I used with you, I think it was Tuesday a week

02:16:03.400 ago, victimology.

02:16:05.280 And it's not just Nancy Guthrie's.

02:16:07.880 Of course, it extends to the family, too, including Savannah.

02:16:11.200 And she would be the big one.

02:16:12.500 She's the one with the name and the celebrity status. 0.98

02:16:17.000 And that would be every single email she's received for the last year or two.

02:16:21.080 Start with that and go backwards if you have to.

02:16:23.520 But it certainly could be someone who sits at the TV screen.

02:16:26.080 It's one thing about people like weather women on TV. 1.00

02:16:28.360 We get a lot of those folks.

02:16:29.620 I was in New York, FBI in New York.

02:16:32.180 A retired NYPD lieutenant who I knew, he was in charge of security.

02:16:36.640 Every single NBC correspondent had some kind of threat against them, usually women. 1.00

02:16:42.440 And I'd have to go out and send leads around the country, interview people myself.

02:16:45.760 And there are some strange people.

02:16:47.140 You look into the camera and talk, which, quite frankly, Megan, you are now.

02:16:51.020 You do every day.

02:16:52.300 People can sit back and just watch you and perceive that you're talking to them.

02:16:57.880 You're talking to them personally.

02:16:59.440 And that's where their mind starts going.

02:17:01.360 The erotomania kicks in.

02:17:03.080 Women do it, have it too, usually with men victims. 1.00

02:17:06.820 But also, in most cases, it's men with women victims.

02:17:11.040 And sometimes it's benign.

02:17:12.200 The stalker I know of in Savannah's case is a female. 1.00

02:17:14.840 It happens.

02:17:15.920 It happens, yeah.

02:17:17.620 Let me, if I could.

02:17:19.040 Fitz, I know you've got to run.

02:17:20.020 Thank you so much for your expertise.

02:17:21.660 Let's keep the discussion going.

02:17:22.640 I can see both James and Will had something to say.

02:17:25.040 Yeah, I would be remiss if I didn't at least say this before we cut our time together.

02:17:30.640 But two things.

02:17:31.760 One is, you know, the van that was mentioned earlier in the reporting was that, you know, some of the neighbors saw a white van, what we would refer to as a creeper van, in and around her home.

02:17:43.480 Okay, that's completely, you know, but as soon as I heard that, I'm like, yep.

02:17:48.620 Because what you're, we call that pre-operational surveillance.

02:17:51.960 We, you know, you're doing surveillance of the target prior to the operation.

02:17:55.900 It's very, very common.

02:17:57.700 It's in what we call the attack cycle.

02:17:59.460 It's part of the cycle.

02:18:00.760 Once they've identified who they're going to target, they do some type of pre-operational surveillance.

02:18:04.620 And unfortunately, what happens is, like in this case, someone calls it in, and law enforcement, you know, will say something.

02:18:10.400 And I don't know what they did on this thing, by the way.

02:18:12.180 I haven't heard a word with regards to what they did, if they identified a driver, if they ran for wants or warrants or anything.

02:18:17.860 But usually what I find, because I call 911 a lot about the same type of thing, suspicious vehicles, and I hear things from police officers like, well, it's not a threat, there's not a crime, you know, there's nothing to it, yada, yada.

02:18:29.940 Well, I don't ever do that, right?

02:18:31.460 When I see a van, a creeper van in my neighborhood, I circle back, and I get the license plate, right? 0.99

02:18:36.580 And I'll call 911, and if they come or they don't come, I don't really care, because I'm going to have a plan, right?

02:18:41.440 I don't just create, and what people do is they create an alibi.

02:18:44.160 They'll create a story, and they'll say, oh, it's not a big deal, it's just a white van, somebody's working on the neighbor's house, even though there's no placards on the van to suggest it's a plumbing company or an electrical company or anything like that.

02:18:56.620 But they'll make some story, like you were talking about trying to be nice or, you know, any of that stuff.

02:19:01.560 Don't do that, okay, especially if you're a targeted individual or you're related to someone who's being targeted.

02:19:07.400 The second thing is everyone talks about threats, threats, threats, threats, threats.

02:19:11.160 It's not the threats that get people, okay?

02:19:14.160 John Hinckley never threatened Ronald Reagan.

02:19:17.020 It's they show up.

02:19:18.440 They keep coming.

02:19:19.400 They inappropriately pursue.

02:19:21.080 They keep writing emails and phone calls. 0.97

02:19:23.700 They don't say, I'm going to kill you, okay? 0.95

02:19:26.000 It's just they keep coming. 0.94

02:19:27.740 That's what we're concerned about.

02:19:29.440 Yeah, the threat is concerning.

02:19:31.180 The spoken threat causes anxiety, but that's not what it is.

02:19:35.580 That's not what's moving the needle, okay?

02:19:37.560 It's the inappropriate nature and their inability to let go.

02:19:41.200 That's what we're, that's what we should be focused on.

02:19:44.180 Sorry.

02:19:44.940 This is so, so eerie.

02:19:46.800 Because I will tell you that this stalker in my life, and I really haven't talked about it much because, you know, there's always a chance he's going to watch this and I don't want to reignite anything.

02:19:55.320 You know, it's just, it's a creepy, dangerous topic.

02:19:58.420 But I was receiving all these, you know, notes and emails and letters.

02:20:04.560 And then one day, I exited the White House where I'd been on the lawn.

02:20:11.620 I was just a babe in the woods reporter.

02:20:14.580 I hadn't, I was, I wasn't controversial at all.

02:20:17.820 Like, I was just starting at Fox News.

02:20:19.500 Nobody even knew who I was for the most part.

02:20:20.900 But I was, I walked out of the White House front gate off of the lawn from my reporting, and he was there.

02:20:28.180 And he lived in another state.

02:20:29.620 He had driven something like 17 hours, 14, I don't know how many.

02:20:32.720 Dedication and conviction, yeah.

02:20:35.400 And introduced himself, like, he didn't introduce himself.

02:20:37.620 He was like, it would be as if, I'm not going to say his name, but it would be as if I came up to you, Maureen, and I was like, Maureen, it's me, Megan.

02:20:45.360 Like, he said it like that.

02:20:46.560 Like, of course you know me.

02:20:47.760 And he was, like, confused by my confused face because he came over so familiar.

02:20:52.380 And was like, hey, it's me.

02:20:53.200 And he said his name.

02:20:54.520 And, you know, it took me a second.

02:20:56.720 And I will say, rather than doing what I should have done, and it's not like I was some nincompoop at the time.

02:21:03.160 I'd been practicing law for 10 years.

02:21:04.680 I was now a journalist.

02:21:06.460 Just turning around and asking the Secret Service to let me back in one of the most secure facilities in America.

02:21:12.200 Wow.

02:21:12.560 I ran like a dope.

02:21:15.420 I ran.

02:21:16.340 You know, I was panicked.

02:21:17.740 I felt the water rising.

02:21:19.640 And he chased me.

02:21:21.420 It was genuinely scary.

02:21:23.080 But my point is simply, if you are an erotomaniac, you will show up inappropriately at places you don't belong.

02:21:32.280 You will be totally calm about it.

02:21:34.480 You think it's wanted.

02:21:36.220 You will get messages from the one you're obsessed with through their hand gestures on TV.

02:21:42.800 That's what he used to get from me.

02:21:44.240 If I, like, brought my hand up here, he would say, I know that means this.

02:21:47.480 He sent me a whole chart.

02:21:48.460 Like, I know these finger motions mean this and that means that.

02:21:50.880 So, like, it is very possible this guy could have been sitting at home watching Savannah Guthrie on the Today Show every day, quote, communicating with her in a way she wasn't, actually.

02:22:01.100 But in his mind, she was, and thinking somehow this is what she wanted.

02:22:06.080 This was blessed by her.

02:22:08.420 And what Fitz said at the end there is very true.

02:22:11.460 I have been told this many times that it happens more frequently with news people than even real celebrities.

02:22:18.920 Like, actors, because we do look right into the lens and the actors don't.

02:22:24.780 Go ahead, Will.

02:22:25.800 Go ahead, Will.

02:22:26.900 Yeah, I was just going to say, I mean, certainly of all the cases where I've looked after newscasters and presenters, they are deemed to be more approachable because of exactly that point you make, Megan.

02:22:36.800 You're looking directly into the camera.

02:22:38.520 You're not looking off camera, interacting with other personalities.

02:22:41.640 You're talking directly to the viewer.

02:22:43.460 And of the fixated people that I've dealt with, they do have this entire language that they believe their understanding of those communications, albeit however inert they may be, that those gestures by you are communicating some kind of connectivity with them.

02:23:00.700 Now, the problem is you can't get past that kind of logic or that sort of rationale that someone's put themselves into.

02:23:09.040 But there is also a rationale that they do apply.

02:23:11.780 You can't reason somebody out of this fixation.

02:23:13.460 No, not at all.

02:23:14.540 Sorry.

02:23:15.160 Yeah, not at all.

02:23:16.580 James's point about the advanced reconnaissance or the pre-operational surveillance is so valid.

02:23:23.340 The one thing which obviously is very scary and was scary for you, Megan, and you running off, I think, other than asking the Secret Service to let you back in, was the best other action you could have taken.

02:23:33.940 You know, you could have frozen on the spot and been rendered, you know, immobile.

02:23:38.660 So the fact that you did run off was probably a good thing.

02:23:40.920 However, this advanced reconnaissance is to try and ascertain and determine what we would call a pattern of life.

02:23:47.260 We're all creatures of routine.

02:23:49.080 We all generally wake up between five and ten minutes at the same time every morning during the working week.

02:23:54.120 We'll go to the same, probably three or four restaurants in our local area, even though we may have a choice of 20 or 30.

02:24:01.040 We'll go to the gym at the same time.

02:24:02.640 And that's what the attacker, abductor or kidnapper is going to be looking for so that they can find that ideal moment where they can then strike with whatever motive that they may have.

02:24:14.700 So they will also extend that to trying to find a location where you are less likely to be part of that pattern of life.

02:24:22.480 So you coming out of the White House, I would imagine you'd either tweeted or there'd be some press coverage or some advance notice that you're going to be attending.

02:24:30.400 And he knew he could turn up and see you there.

02:24:32.860 It was a brave gesture which shows the lack of sanity, a brave gesture, however, to confront you right in front of the White House with Secret Service nearby.

02:24:41.620 And then think about it, even after he saw me run and he had to chase me, he continued with the letters that were in love that, you know, nothing, nothing registered.

02:24:53.820 Like they don't perceive communication saying no the way a normal person does.

02:25:00.080 And that's actually something that Gavin DeBecker has written about as well, which is there's a big debate in the stalking community about, not stalkers, but the victims of stalkers and the men and women who protect the targets of a stalker.

02:25:17.320 Whether you even give them an initial no, whether you give them the hard no, stay away from me, I don't want you.

02:25:25.740 Or whether you just do zero, because even the no is perceived as a yes, you know, in the same way the hand gesture is a yes and the running away is a yes.

02:25:35.860 And so it's like Savannah could very well have one of these.

02:25:40.000 Again, the woman I know about is a woman. 1.00

02:25:42.220 And by the way, she's African-American, so she's not. 0.70

02:25:44.600 It's definitely not if this person we're looking at is involved in any way.

02:25:49.100 It's not the same person.

02:25:50.700 Your point on the no, Megan, just jumping in there very quickly, is absolutely right in terms of not giving a response.

02:25:57.940 It's much like if you're being harassed or intimidated online.

02:26:01.480 You know, the golden rule is never to respond because you're giving the threat or you're giving the troll or the abuser oxygen for them and some confirmation of connectivity with you.

02:26:13.980 By giving no response whatsoever, you are starving them of that oxygen of being able to engage with you because they're looking for a reaction.

02:26:20.460 I would just I would jump in on that, Megan, that, you know, Gavin calls it engage and enrage.

02:26:26.160 So if you engage with them, you enrage them.

02:26:28.460 So you don't engage.

02:26:29.740 You try to get them to detach and move away.

02:26:33.160 The reason people do want you to use the no is for the legal part of it.

02:26:37.920 So you can go to a court and say, I did set a boundary.

02:26:40.440 I did tell him the communication was unwanted and we did tell him no, yada, yada.

02:26:45.000 But, you know, we could argue that all day.

02:26:47.640 And I think Gavin's probably correct.

02:26:49.520 You just don't engage with the people like Will's talking about.

02:26:52.200 But I did want to real quick double back on your story, because when you said the guy traveled to D.C.

02:26:57.680 from a thousand miles away, you know, Maureen and I both were like immediately popping on that because targeted travel is much more concerning than the guy writing a letter saying, I'm going to kill you.

02:27:08.200 The person that travels from a thousand miles away gets on an airplane to come to see you.

02:27:12.480 That is very, very concerning.

02:27:14.120 And lastly, I just got to make sure I say this to you. 0.51

02:27:16.620 You are not a dope.

02:27:18.120 Don't say that.

02:27:19.380 You ran.

02:27:20.580 You did something.

02:27:21.540 And I tell people all the time, flight is fight.

02:27:24.060 You are fighting for your own life by running away.

02:27:26.700 So don't ever do that yourself and second guess yourself and say, oh, I did the wrong thing.

02:27:30.900 The hell you did.

02:27:32.040 You did the right thing.

02:27:32.920 You said, I want to get away from this.

02:27:34.320 I'm going to get away from it right now.

02:27:35.720 And you did it.

02:27:36.400 So good for you.

02:27:37.580 Don't don't do that.

02:27:38.400 Yeah.

02:27:38.740 Oh, thank you.

02:27:40.000 Thank you for saying that.

02:27:40.920 It was a genuinely traumatic.

02:27:44.120 Like experience to happen, you know, so young in my career.

02:27:47.380 And I think a lot of public figures have had it.

02:27:49.860 And that's why, like, I look at this and I'm like, I don't, this could have been somebody

02:27:53.960 who wasn't known at all to Savannah, who just had this obsession from afar, like Robert

02:27:59.500 Bardo, maybe just a letter or whatever, an email.

02:28:02.360 You get enough of them in his public, you don't even pay attention to them, who then

02:28:06.880 may have been set off by something.

02:28:09.840 Maybe some perceived rejection, some perceived slight that she didn't, she has no idea about

02:28:17.180 set him off to where he decided he needed to escalate it or he was going to get her attention

02:28:22.560 one way or another.

02:28:24.360 And maybe it's all about causing the suffering, enjoying watching the tearful videos that have

02:28:31.140 come out.

02:28:33.060 That's why there's no ransom demand.

02:28:34.900 It's not about relieving any of the pain.

02:28:37.480 It's just about causing it.

02:28:38.920 Because the thing I can't get past, Maureen, is the odds of some stranger criminal just happening

02:28:49.840 to stumble upon Savannah Guthrie's mother seem infinitesimal.

02:28:56.620 I just, I don't, I feel like this is either a family member or it's somebody that, it's

02:29:04.300 about Savannah.

02:29:04.940 It's one of those two things in my mind.

02:29:06.480 Well, if we kind of reverse engineer it, would, would we, would this case even be here if

02:29:12.880 Savannah weren't as popular and lovely as she is? 0.86

02:29:15.960 I don't know.

02:29:16.720 I, I, I tend to agree with you, but we won't know until, you know, until this whole thing

02:29:22.460 is over.

02:29:23.340 But to your point on stalking, I know so, so many women that have been stalked that have 0.62

02:29:31.540 no and had no public persona and I'm talking about going all the way back to before there

02:29:38.600 even was the term stalking for women and before people even took it seriously. 0.95

02:29:44.240 It's, it's, it's.

02:29:45.360 And they don't in most jurisdictions still.

02:29:47.220 Yeah.

02:29:48.020 Well, and I don't know about you guys, but my experience is that a lot of times they don't

02:29:51.800 know.

02:29:52.160 Well, you may not even know about the stalking that's going on or the inappropriate letters.

02:29:58.480 I, I mean, I'm friends with a judge out of Texas who was shot in a driveway and she never

02:30:03.220 even knew the guy that did it because he showed up in her court and that he had, you know,

02:30:07.700 taken some type of offense and he got mad and held a grievance.

02:30:11.500 Well, she didn't even know that he was out and she didn't know that he was threatening

02:30:14.960 to hurt her because the police never told her.

02:30:17.200 And so she actually saw the guy jogging in front of her house.

02:30:20.680 She didn't, she thought it was odd, but no one from law enforcement had told her, Hey, 0.62

02:30:24.600 this guy, you know, told his girlfriend, he's going to kill you.

02:30:26.960 And sure enough, the guy did, he tried to kill her. 0.54

02:30:29.420 And so a lot of times you may not even know.

02:30:31.840 So what I mean is sometimes your security people, maybe even the studio and in her case, maybe

02:30:36.760 they don't even tell her about some of these things.

02:30:39.740 Yeah.

02:30:40.320 I mean, that's frankly how even in my own life, like they only raise it to my attention if

02:30:45.160 it's, you know, if it's, if it deserves to, cause you can't live your life being told

02:30:49.660 of every threat.

02:30:50.180 It's just too, it's too, too much of a crazy thing.

02:30:52.180 But we were talking about Gavin a bit since you worked with him, James, but in Gavin's

02:30:58.040 book, I believe this is where I got this from the gift of fear.

02:31:01.480 He writes about this story and there's, I can't remember whether it was his book or this

02:31:06.440 an online forum on stalking, but I've definitely read the story about a woman who wrestled with

02:31:12.380 whether or not to get a restraining order against the stalker and she decided to get

02:31:17.060 it.

02:31:17.960 And they found her that later that day or the next day with the restraining order stabbed 0.80

02:31:24.300 through her heart.

02:31:25.160 Yeah.

02:31:25.920 That's right.

02:31:26.180 And so like any sort of perceived rejection, you know, which is basically what that stalker

02:31:31.980 was responding to can escalate the behavior of the stalker to a truly dangerous level.

02:31:36.700 And so I just keep looking at you, you thank God you, you really can't get to Savannah like

02:31:43.520 that, even on the entrance and exit to NBC.

02:31:45.380 And I won't go through the security protocols, but I worked there for almost two years.

02:31:49.300 She's protected.

02:31:50.760 And obviously she's, she knows how to hide her home address and all that stuff. 0.99

02:31:54.680 But the mother, I haven't looked it up, but I'm sure she was a sitting duck down there. 0.94

02:31:59.700 I'm sure it was a much different story.

02:32:01.340 And so if there were a precipitating event of any kind, again, and keep in mind, we're

02:32:05.460 talking about a lunatic who perceives the hand motions as a rejection or a slight, suddenly

02:32:11.940 the mother's gone. 0.62

02:32:12.960 I just think like, we've been so obsessed with, yes, we're looking at the brother because

02:32:17.220 the Ashley tip, we don't know whether it's real.

02:32:19.300 And we're looking at personnel who worked on her lawn because you got to, and she's so

02:32:25.200 close to Mexico and they do have very bad kidnapping down there and bad guys who will

02:32:30.340 do that kind of thing with a rich family, all that.

02:32:32.900 And that's all still on the table, but this is a lane.

02:32:36.040 I just, I don't hear talked about that much, James.

02:32:37.900 And so the precipitating event, we have no idea what it may have been, but it's, it's

02:32:40.880 very possible.

02:32:41.640 The whole goal was to hurt Savannah Guthrie.

02:32:44.360 Yeah, I certainly like that theory.

02:32:45.900 Oh, I'm sorry.

02:32:46.500 Well, go ahead, James, go ahead.

02:32:48.700 Well, I certainly like your theory, Megan, better than this cartel thing.

02:32:52.000 I mean, I don't know.

02:32:52.820 I mean, I work those guys.

02:32:53.880 I don't know what, what, what do they benefit from that?

02:32:56.820 You know, they're in a business.

02:32:58.260 What, what do they benefit from, from hurting this old lady? 0.93

02:33:01.340 I mean, I, I don't see it.

02:33:03.560 I, it doesn't make, it sounds interesting.

02:33:05.460 It gets people excited.

02:33:06.480 Oh yeah, it's in close proximity to Mexico.

02:33:07.940 But, you know, a lot of people live there every day and they're not kidnapped.

02:33:10.940 Okay.

02:33:11.280 And the cartel is in a business.

02:33:12.640 I don't see how this is a business for them.

02:33:14.880 And, you know, it's not like she's going to be sold into sex slavery or something like 0.76

02:33:18.240 that.

02:33:18.600 You know, it just, what?

02:33:20.260 I, I'm with you.

02:33:21.520 That's right.

02:33:21.940 I, I really think that, you know, it is going to be tied back to something with regards to a

02:33:26.980 family member, an acquaintance and, or her fame.

02:33:30.460 I just, that's where, you know, I would be leaning if I was an investigator right now.

02:33:35.500 Especially without the proof of light.

02:33:37.080 Go ahead, Will.

02:33:37.720 Yeah.

02:33:37.920 Yeah.

02:33:39.300 I mean, again, the one thing I find really confusing is the fact that if it was just

02:33:44.360 a direct or indirect attack at Savannah by targeting the mother, who is the path of least 0.73

02:33:50.800 resistance, much easier to get to, this wouldn't have necessarily, I would have thought, resulted

02:33:56.760 in an abduction.

02:33:57.620 Um, the whole abduction thing is really the most confusing factor here as to why she was

02:34:03.640 actually removed from that location.

02:34:05.100 If it was a retribution of some nature, then I would have thought she would have been assaulted,

02:34:10.560 possibly killed, obviously in her own home.

02:34:12.740 But the fact that she's missing, uh, and if it was, she was taken away from the scene to

02:34:17.920 be murdered or to, to, to be hurt in some way, then again, it would be a question of where

02:34:22.380 would the body be dumped?

02:34:23.380 And that would no doubt would have fallen within the plan of the attacker before they

02:34:27.800 undertook it.

02:34:28.440 So in the same way as assassins will.

02:34:30.680 So it's this abduction.

02:34:32.280 Wait, I want to keep talking about this.

02:34:33.300 What we have to say about is SiriusXM.

02:34:34.740 We'll continue it on pod and YouTube.

02:34:37.000 Hey everyone, it's me, Megyn Kelly.

02:34:39.040 I've got some exciting news.

02:34:41.280 I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM.

02:34:44.400 It's called the Megyn Kelly channel, and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered with

02:34:48.440 no agenda and no apologies.

02:34:50.560 Along with the Megyn Kelly show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halsey,

02:34:53.380 Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly, RealClearPolitics, and many more.

02:34:59.880 It's bold, no BS news.

02:35:02.000 Only on the Megyn Kelly channel, SiriusXM 111, and on the SiriusXM app.

02:35:11.160 We're back now with our FBI and security experts.

02:35:13.920 Will, you were right in the middle of the point where we had to end because the SiriusXM

02:35:16.680 show was ending.

02:35:17.680 Could you pick it back up?

02:35:19.200 Yes, I'll try my best, Megyn.

02:35:20.520 I mean, fundamentally, there are so many disjoints on this whole case, which is really surprising

02:35:26.080 me.

02:35:26.640 And it is kind of baffling me.

02:35:29.080 And it is that there are certain aspects which are professional, like the advanced reconnaissance.

02:35:34.160 And again, I think Kash Patel is holding back an awful lot of information.

02:35:38.500 There's probably very good reasons for it.

02:35:40.280 But I think it's querying the pitch somewhat.

02:35:43.100 And I think it's confusing, certainly analysts like ourselves who are trying to break it down

02:35:47.340 and understand, if you like, the series of actions, the series of elements that have

02:35:54.220 taken place in this whole case.

02:35:55.980 But the big question is, of cases where I've seen assassinations or assassination attempts

02:36:02.720 and I've been involved in, obviously, protecting against, and certainly in cases where there's

02:36:07.900 retribution attacks or revenge attacks of some nature, they will look for the best location

02:36:14.140 to carry that out.

02:36:15.100 And the one thing that really has confused me is the removal, obviously, of Nancy from

02:36:20.920 that location and her disappearance.

02:36:23.100 And if it was to kill her, then there's every good chance they would have disposed of her

02:36:28.340 body or put it in a location.

02:36:30.280 And certainly if it was a message that they were trying to send to Savannah, they would

02:36:34.540 want her to know what has actually happened.

02:36:37.780 So I think at the moment, we were talking in the break just now, me and your other guests,

02:36:43.320 about the ransom demands.

02:36:45.260 And at the moment, there is just no legitimate, as I can see, ransom demand that has been made

02:36:51.140 that could be evidenced against proof of life.

02:36:53.500 So I've worked on cases where there's been kidnappings and dozens of different individuals

02:36:58.660 have jumped out, even legitimate groups and terrorists and militia within certain countries

02:37:03.960 have jumped out, claiming responsibility.

02:37:06.760 I remember there was one case in Papua New Guinea that I worked on, and 110 different groups

02:37:11.820 claimed that they were holding the hostages.

02:37:14.420 And the only way you can find out is either by proof of life or, regrettably, proof of death.

02:37:21.960 Hmm.

02:37:22.560 We've been talking about this proof of life thing and the hostage or the ransom notes,

02:37:27.300 because there was some confusion about whether maybe the second note did have some sort of

02:37:33.980 proof of life in it, and the family may have been responding to it.

02:37:38.020 And now this, yesterday, there were reports that there was a $6 million transfer of Bitcoin.

02:37:43.780 It's just a $6 million transfer of Bitcoin.

02:37:47.580 We have no idea whether it's into the account of whomever made that first demand.

02:37:55.040 I don't know.

02:37:55.800 It's strange that just like there's a Bitcoin market, and I guess you can see who's moving

02:37:59.220 Bitcoin and how much of it they're moving.

02:38:01.180 But this is what they're saying, that somebody moved $6 million worth of Bitcoin yesterday,

02:38:06.240 and there's no confirmation about who it was or whether it was into the account of the

02:38:12.160 person who wrote the first note.

02:38:13.440 And Harvey Levin wouldn't specify.

02:38:16.640 He said, I'm not comfortable talking about it, which was also kind of ominous.

02:38:20.880 Um, yeah, right.

02:38:23.180 Understandable, but also ominous.

02:38:24.360 Like, I don't know.

02:38:25.780 I guess I kind of would think that they, that if it weren't into that account, he'd say,

02:38:30.220 no, but maybe not because maybe the police, the FBI did deposit, as the local station said,

02:38:37.140 $300 into the Bitcoin account.

02:38:39.460 Um, and he does not want to confirm that it wasn't $6 million because they're trying to,

02:38:45.080 as we discussed in the first hour, quote, tickle the wire.

02:38:47.480 They're trying to fool the perpetrator or whoever wrote the note into believing, oh my God, the

02:38:52.720 $6 million might be in there.

02:38:53.740 I'm going to go check.

02:38:54.680 So he doesn't want to be all over the news saying it's not, it's not $6 million.

02:38:58.400 Trust me, I've seen what's been transferred.

02:38:59.960 It's only $300.

02:39:01.760 So that could all be happening.

02:39:03.140 Um, but as for whether there was proof of life in the second note, which Harvey did not receive,

02:39:09.180 only one local Tucson television affiliate received it and they did not get explicit

02:39:15.000 about what was in or not in it, but their sister television station, Arizona family did.

02:39:21.800 And we pulled the soundbite.

02:39:23.220 We do have it now.

02:39:24.100 Let's play it.

02:39:25.060 Let's check in with our true crime correspondent, Brianna Whitney, live for us in Tucson to 0.99

02:39:29.200 walk us through what we are able to reveal about this latest note that came into the family.

02:39:35.920 Yeah.

02:39:36.400 And it's been in the last hour that we've learned we can reveal a little bit more.

02:39:41.000 Um, Jared, you mentioned it.

02:39:42.320 There is no proof of life in this new note, but there's also no additional ransom demand.

02:39:47.460 And there's also no way for the kidnapper to communicate with the Guthrie family.

02:39:51.720 There was no way for the Guthrie's to reach back out.

02:39:54.620 So those are three new details we're able to report at this hour, but it is exceptionally

02:39:59.420 concerning when you know that we are still searching for 84 year old Nancy Guthrie.

02:40:03.700 So at no point that we know of was there proof of life at all to the family.

02:40:09.880 And therefore we have no reason to believe they would pay $6 million to these people based 0.92

02:40:17.280 on proof.

02:40:18.440 We also don't know about them allegedly having Nancy because they could cite to her white

02:40:23.360 Apple watch and possibly its placement in the home where it was in her home and a broken

02:40:29.920 floodlight on the exterior of the home, which look, it's better than nothing to have that.

02:40:35.680 But we've been making the point here all week.

02:40:37.860 It's, it's not great.

02:40:39.380 I mean, if I, if I have somebody and I want to prove to their family members, I have them.

02:40:45.700 There are way more intimate details I can offer about the person by talking to them if they're

02:40:51.700 alive to prove I've got them.

02:40:54.140 And I know a lot about them that I should not know as a captor.

02:40:58.120 And even if the person had died and you're trying to do the Exxon game of pretending that

02:41:03.020 they're still alive, if I'm the actual abductor, I think I could do better than I know the placement

02:41:09.680 of the Apple watch in the home, which is something that's, you could potentially see even if you're

02:41:16.960 not the abductor.

02:41:18.240 I just, I feel like the proof that they have her, at least as it's been shared with us so

02:41:22.740 far, and there could be much better proof that we don't know about is very weak for making

02:41:26.820 the case that the people who wrote the ransom notes are in fact the abductor or related to

02:41:31.240 the abductor.

02:41:31.820 Exactly.

02:41:32.320 They obviously got her dressed that she's, she was wearing clothing when she left. 0.99

02:41:37.040 They could say your mom's wearing sketcher shoes and a nightgown by whatever maker.

02:41:43.900 And, you know, or if she's alive, you could ask her all these questions.

02:41:49.780 What did you give Savannah for her 16th birthday? 0.94

02:41:52.480 Things that other people aren't going to know.

02:41:54.200 So you could, you could at least have an inventory moving forward, but absolutely none of that.

02:42:00.020 This is all perplexing.

02:42:01.360 It doesn't make any sense.

02:42:03.020 And for those of us in, uh, spent our decades in law enforcement and in security, we're logic

02:42:09.760 driven thinkers.

02:42:10.680 And so it's, it's driving people mad.

02:42:14.960 I think it's, I think, sorry, I was just going to say, I think that there are a couple of really

02:42:20.800 interesting observations that I'd like to pop in there.

02:42:23.780 Firstly, was the amount 6 million.

02:42:25.360 Um, now if it's a professional group, a few years ago, ransoms would be settled by paying

02:42:32.000 Bitcoin, particularly if it was in another country where the access to cash would have

02:42:35.460 been difficult or to carry the cash is going to be difficult.

02:42:38.780 And unlike in the movies, carrying 6 million in $100 bills actually weighs a heck of a lot.

02:42:43.960 So trying to transport it or move it to a location is very difficult.

02:42:47.960 And particularly for the, the, the drop-off point or the pickup point of where you're going

02:42:51.960 to leave it, whether it be on a, uh, a thumb drive or whatever.

02:42:55.900 The 6 million, I'm really not that surprised by that figure because a lot of, and I'm not

02:43:02.060 revealing any state secrets here.

02:43:03.960 A lot of K&R insurance policies will go to approximately about 5 million, 5 million to 10

02:43:09.900 to about $10 million if it's in a high risk or conflict zone.

02:43:13.960 And the, the other issue to really follow on what Maureen was saying, which was absolutely

02:43:18.520 bang on in my estimation, which was this issue about asking questions.

02:43:23.240 These are questions which can't be easily, uh, answered through research online.

02:43:28.040 Could be a picture on Facebook, or it could be some background information you do through

02:43:32.100 open source.

02:43:32.840 So it could be, for example, Megan, what was the name of your family pet when you were a

02:43:37.180 small child, your first family pet?

02:43:38.980 It'll be information that people can't find very easy and will only be within your intimate

02:43:43.380 circles.

02:43:44.540 Sorry, James.

02:43:45.580 No, you're fine, brother.

02:43:46.440 I was just going to say, you know, Megan, that all of this is a distraction.

02:43:50.260 And not only is it a distraction from the investigation, it causes, you know, a lot of

02:43:55.240 anxiety for the family.

02:43:56.720 The family's hearing that, oh, someone may have her and they want 6 million and then

02:44:00.660 they get their hopes up and they get very excited.

02:44:03.160 And, you know, then the investigators like us are in the back saying, well, we need proof

02:44:07.000 of life.

02:44:07.460 We need to make sure they're for real.

02:44:08.760 And, you know, then the family finds out, well, that's not for real.

02:44:11.880 And then they're let down.

02:44:13.120 And, you know, it's this constant roller coaster.

02:44:15.320 And you remember, there's only so many investigators.

02:44:18.180 So there's this is a distraction that causes confusion and causes false hopes.

02:44:22.460 I certainly hope that these people were found and prosecuted, right, for doing these things.

02:44:26.660 If it turns out like we've been talking about this fraudulent, because that's very, you know,

02:44:31.600 that's a disgusting person that would take advantage of a family in a situation like this. 1.00

02:44:35.420 But it's out there and it happens.

02:44:38.020 But, you know, for me, if I'm with this family, I'm like, look, we're not paying anything

02:44:42.080 until we have some proof.

02:44:43.440 Exactly what Will's talking about, something that other people would not know, you know.

02:44:47.820 And there's a lot of ways we do that.

02:44:50.340 And you just have to have the courage to say, look, this is nonsense.

02:44:53.500 I know you're excited.

02:44:54.520 I know you want it to be true.

02:44:55.800 But they don't have her.

02:44:57.320 And you got to say goodbye and you got to move on.

02:44:59.860 And you got to have the courage to make that call.

02:45:01.820 And that's very, very difficult when you got a family looking you in the face.

02:45:04.820 And you're going to have this.

02:45:06.300 Guys like you have been saying all along that in prior kidnapping cases that you guys are

02:45:10.900 familiar with, that the kidnappers are not shy about producing proof of life.

02:45:16.540 They want you to know they really do have your person and they want you to pay up.

02:45:22.060 It's not this like, I'm not going to.

02:45:24.660 Well, you can't have it or I'm not even going to mention it.

02:45:27.180 I'm not going to talk about that.

02:45:28.460 It's like that's that that doesn't dovetail at all with anybody's prior experiences.

02:45:33.680 I did want to ask you this, Maureen, let me start with you on this as like our forensic

02:45:38.100 analyst.

02:45:40.040 The blood trail changed yesterday.

02:45:43.840 Fox News's reporter released his own video.

02:45:48.340 Brian Enten got pictures of the blood drops on Nancy's front porch right away because they

02:45:54.100 released the house on Monday after the Sunday she went missing.

02:45:57.460 So he just walked up there and filmed it.

02:46:00.140 But apparently so did Fox News and their digital reporter.

02:46:04.360 Ruiz is his last name.

02:46:05.940 And he said, you know, I guess I'm going to release Michael.

02:46:09.500 I'm going to release mine too.

02:46:10.760 And so this is his tape and it does show blood.

02:46:14.380 It shows some sort of some blue shirt out on the front walkway on a rock.

02:46:19.580 And it also does show blood beyond now we're onto the sort of square terracotta tiles where

02:46:28.640 we'd seen blood, thanks to Brian previously.

02:46:30.880 But here now we're out on the more cement looking walkway and you can see blood.

02:46:35.060 You can see more blood drops.

02:46:37.040 Previously unknown to us that wasn't in Brian's original reporting, which I you tell me what

02:46:42.280 you glean from that.

02:46:43.440 It's to be expected.

02:46:44.640 The only way, you know, if someone is actively bleeding, the only way for it to really stop

02:46:49.880 in that short of a period of time, one would imagine, especially after some sort of traumatic

02:46:54.600 injury, like a punch or something along those lines would be to either put paper towels on

02:47:02.560 her face or a t-shirt on her face.

02:47:05.000 Did anyone turn that t-shirt over and see what's on the other side?

02:47:08.340 Oh, good.

02:47:08.900 Just at least until you get into the car, you don't want you don't want someone that's 1.00

02:47:13.580 actively bleeding to get into your vehicle unless you have that tarp in the car.

02:47:18.660 Or, you know, we talked a lot about that backpack yesterday, Megan, and how full it was.

02:47:23.460 And if we can all imagine being in an airport and people watching as we all do, you'll you

02:47:28.800 can see when someone has a backpack, you can see if there are heavy items at the bottom,

02:47:34.000 bulging items on the side.

02:47:36.200 But this one appeared to be very smooth, almost like a rolled up tarp or rolled up blanket.

02:47:41.900 Those are things that if you know, when you're quote unquote, kidnap kit, you would want in

02:47:47.120 your vehicle, just so that you can put her in there and no trace evidence.

02:47:52.020 One thing we've been discussing is how little your average perpetrator would want to drive

02:47:58.840 around with an 84 year old in his backseat or, you know, in any part of the car, lest he'd be

02:48:04.900 pulled over, lest a camera, a red light camera or a license plate reader see her.

02:48:11.400 But back to the point about the white van, James's favorite white van.

02:48:17.180 If you have one of those white vans, they don't they don't have windows in the back.

02:48:20.740 That's one of the things that make them so creepy.

02:48:22.620 But they're for sure that pulled over.

02:48:24.120 You'd be far less.

02:48:25.080 I mean, what do you mean?

02:48:27.140 I mean, if you're driving a creepy van, what we call a pedo van because it has no windows.

02:48:32.500 If you're driving one of those vans at 2 30 in the morning and a police officer pulls up next

02:48:38.000 to you and you're looking shady, you know, they'll figure out a way to develop probable

02:48:43.020 cause your taillight, whatever else is out.

02:48:45.280 You know, that's thank God for the penal code to give you a probable cause to pull people

02:48:50.120 over when you need to.

02:48:51.140 Okay, so you're saying that the odds are against the white van being used in the crime because

02:48:56.660 the perp would understand it would make him look even more suspicious.

02:49:00.220 No, I'm not saying I'm not saying that exactly.

02:49:02.540 But I'm just saying I'm saying it would up the ante a little bit more than just a regular

02:49:07.200 four door nondescript sedan.

02:49:09.820 But again, my theory from the beginning has been this car did not travel on any of these

02:49:15.360 major roads.

02:49:16.340 I think this car drove through side streets and went to a location very close to Nancy's

02:49:21.680 home.

02:49:23.360 By the way, guys, this just breaking there's there's somebody goes by JLR who's been on

02:49:28.040 scene, has been doing great reporting.

02:49:30.620 He's got an interesting criminal history of his own.

02:49:32.560 I have to tell you, he's been doing a wonderful job covering this case.

02:49:35.520 And he reports right now law enforcement is back at Annie Guthrie and Tommaso's home.

02:49:39.660 Two men went inside their house.

02:49:41.180 Now, I don't know what that is.

02:49:42.820 It's just two men.

02:49:43.420 And maybe they're getting something for the family that's been moved to another location

02:49:46.480 because they're done with the media and so on.

02:49:48.440 But what are they working on so hard right now?

02:49:50.620 A lot, Megan.

02:49:52.320 What is everybody hyper focused on now?

02:49:55.460 What this person was wearing at that door?

02:50:00.280 You know, the person in the videos from yesterday, that's what everybody's hyper focused on.

02:50:05.060 It doesn't mean it can't be related to something, something else in one of these silo investigations

02:50:10.380 that Jim and I, James and I know are, you know, there's 25 or 30 of them happening right now.

02:50:16.940 But back at that house again, here we go again.

02:50:22.640 It's a lot.

02:50:23.480 It's a lot of focus on the house we're told we're not supposed to talk about.

02:50:27.500 We're not supposed to talk about the brother-in-law.

02:50:29.960 But we will until the police tell us he's cleared, which they haven't.

02:50:35.320 Go ahead, James.

02:50:35.840 Oh, just, you know, she's right.

02:50:37.440 You know, Maureen's dead on the money. 0.99

02:50:38.920 It's backpack.

02:50:39.780 It's ski mask. 1.00

02:50:40.760 It's stupid holster that doesn't fit the semi-auto. 0.99

02:50:44.620 You know, it's a big revolver, what we call an Uncle Mike's holster that no one carries except 1.00

02:50:48.680 amateurs.

02:50:49.160 And it's an ill-matching, you know, holster and a little pistol.

02:50:54.400 It's the shoes.

02:50:55.580 It's the jacket.

02:50:56.740 It's those reflective straps on that backpack.

02:50:58.960 That's what they're looking for.

02:51:00.520 I'm telling you, those lips in that face mask look very, very familiar to me.

02:51:07.560 Meaning you think you know who it is?

02:51:10.020 I think they look like the brother-in-laws.

02:51:13.080 I pulled a couple of photos and sent them to your Allison.

02:51:19.000 And I, you know, I'm not saying he did it, but I'm saying.

02:51:24.340 But don't you think this guy looks too young to be the brother-in-law?

02:51:27.820 The brother-in-law, I mean, I don't know how old he is.

02:51:30.080 I know the sister-in-law is 56. 0.98

02:51:32.060 I'm assuming she's married to somebody who's about her age.

02:51:34.500 He's got a lot of gray in his beard.

02:51:35.940 I think this guy's 50 because I think he lived in Italy till he was 30.

02:51:39.780 And they've been here and together for 20 years.

02:51:42.980 That's my understanding.

02:51:44.040 He could be, you know, his skin looks nice.

02:51:48.380 I don't know.

02:51:49.420 I'm just saying that in addition to the plethora of information that comes at us when we watch these videos,

02:51:56.400 those lips and those eyes are very, very distinctive.

02:52:00.980 They are not my husband's eyes.

02:52:02.680 They are not my neighbor's eyes.

02:52:04.420 They're not my friend's eyes.

02:52:06.080 They're big, round, and the lips are always in this.

02:52:11.480 This person is engaged in this crazy act right now.

02:52:16.080 Not that photo.

02:52:17.200 The one I'm thinking of is the one where he has his hand up toward the,

02:52:22.360 where he's pounding his fist up in one direction.

02:52:25.980 And then you can see the circular around his lips and they're just like this.

02:52:30.760 Oh, I have it on my phone right here.

02:52:33.660 Okay.

02:52:34.020 We'll try to pull it up too.

02:52:36.940 This one.

02:52:39.440 Oops.

02:52:41.920 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:52:43.960 Yep.

02:52:44.620 So anybody else that works, you know, people make facial expressions when they're working,

02:52:50.560 when they're doing physical things, when they're, look at how calm that person looks.

02:52:54.900 He's not, I don't think he's scared at all.

02:52:57.460 He's very comfortable where he is.

02:52:59.360 He's not worried about anybody walking up because he knows no one goes there at night.

02:53:03.840 And I have to say, I mean, on the brother-in-law, Ashley has not stood down from her reporting

02:53:10.480 that as of last Tuesday, he, quote, may be the prime suspect.

02:53:14.500 She checked in with her.

02:53:16.080 She calls him an impeccable law enforcement source.

02:53:18.500 Ashley has been a crime reporter.

02:53:19.860 Like, that's been her main beat now for years.

02:53:22.460 And she, unlike most people who aren't, like, into true crime to the extent I am and some

02:53:27.700 others are, I've followed her avidly.

02:53:30.920 Like, Ashley is solid on her crime reporting.

02:53:33.680 I mean, like, you have to understand, Jake Tapper was like, these influencers online looking

02:53:37.980 for clicks.

02:53:38.580 That's not her at all.

02:53:40.320 If she just wanted clicks, trust me, she would have been doing a lot of different crimes 1.00

02:53:43.020 different ways.

02:53:44.080 She's very meticulous.

02:53:45.280 She does care.

02:53:46.140 Doesn't mean she's right all the time.

02:53:47.780 She could be wrong.

02:53:48.380 Her source could be wrong.

02:53:50.020 Or maybe he was, he, quote, may have been the prime suspect last Tuesday, but isn't

02:53:54.100 now.

02:53:54.580 But she did check in with him every day last week.

02:53:56.920 And she came on here at the end of the week and told me that he said to her, I don't, I

02:54:02.340 haven't changed at all.

02:54:03.480 And it's when you're over the target, that's when they attack you.

02:54:07.100 So that's where we were, at least as of last Friday.

02:54:10.600 And here we are Tuesday.

02:54:12.040 And we've had repeated visits back to their house and repeated canvassing of their neighbors

02:54:17.080 and their backyard, which is not, we are told, the crime scene.

02:54:22.160 It's not normal.

02:54:23.340 It's miles away from the crime scene.

02:54:25.380 Jim, have you ever seen this before?

02:54:28.720 Well, yeah.

02:54:29.540 When you're very concerned about a certain individual being involved in something, I've

02:54:33.540 seen it.

02:54:34.260 This is their sixth trip back?

02:54:36.760 Yeah, that's what I mean.

02:54:37.760 It's, yeah.

02:54:38.960 Yeah.

02:54:39.700 And you have to look at these families and you never know.

02:54:42.820 We only see what, you know, people show us.

02:54:45.420 We don't know these families.

02:54:47.140 We don't know what's going on.

02:54:48.840 And, and unfortunately, you know, that's where some of these investigations will lead

02:54:52.640 us, you know.

02:54:54.460 So I'm saying that this is just my opinion.

02:54:57.100 I am not saying this person is guilty.

02:54:59.500 I have no inside information.

02:55:01.620 But the one thing I can tell you is the videos and images that came out yesterday.

02:55:06.260 Did they dissuade me?

02:55:08.120 Did they make me feel that there's no way it could be possible?

02:55:11.000 Or does it say could be, you know, it didn't, it didn't rule him out for me.

02:55:19.000 I mean, I'll say this.

02:55:20.120 I don't think law enforcement is thinking that that's him right now because they went

02:55:24.860 and arrested for what's his name?

02:55:27.180 The DoorDash guy.

02:55:28.440 They didn't arrest him, but they pulled him over and they interrogated him and they searched

02:55:32.060 his house and they see, they didn't do that to Tomas.

02:55:35.400 So like, I don't know.

02:55:37.800 They seem to think that that's not Tomas because they thought this other poor DoorDash guy was

02:55:43.280 the guy wearing the face mask.

02:55:46.440 And by this point, they would have seen Tomas's cell phone.

02:55:50.000 They would have seen probably his bank account.

02:55:53.300 They, you know, they would have seen a lot about him.

02:55:55.140 There was no cell phone.

02:55:55.600 Doesn't mean they're not thinking.

02:55:57.560 There was no cell phone.

02:55:58.680 Right.

02:55:59.200 On that person.

02:55:59.560 They would have picked it up.

02:56:00.640 I'm sorry.

02:56:01.340 Yeah.

02:56:02.780 No, no, no.

02:56:03.500 It's, it's an interesting point.

02:56:04.580 I mean, there's, there's one, there's one consideration perhaps as to why they may be

02:56:08.680 taking their time about this.

02:56:09.940 And that is if there was an accomplice, if there was someone else who was actually working

02:56:13.800 with him.

02:56:14.720 So we'll be trying to identify that connection, who that person is.

02:56:18.920 And sometimes, you know, again, I don't have the same expertise as James and Maureen, but

02:56:23.860 where I've seen this in, in other cases is you allow like a terrorist to run to see who

02:56:29.400 his network is.

02:56:30.340 And he basically put them under surveillance to see whether you can then join the dots to

02:56:34.980 who may have actually come together.

02:56:36.400 So, you know, going back to your original theory, Megan, which was someone was at the

02:56:40.700 front trying to remove the ring doorbell and someone else was at the back.

02:56:44.220 You know, there could be this accomplice that they're waiting out to try and identify.

02:56:48.920 The thing here, Megan, I'm so sorry.

02:56:51.960 You go ahead.

02:56:53.440 No, no, you go.

02:56:54.180 It's just the only thing different here is that, you know, this is a kidnapping.

02:56:58.880 We have a live body that we, we, we can't find.

02:57:02.020 And that's what makes this so, so different.

02:57:04.320 There has to be a, you know, this isn't a normal investigation where you can take your

02:57:09.580 time, develop leads, get a good investigative strategy, do a good interview, a good custodial

02:57:14.860 interview, you know, all of those things like the clock is ticking.

02:57:18.580 We're 10 days now and we've got a human being that we don't have.

02:57:23.140 And that to me has to ramp up everything.

02:57:25.280 And it has to be on like warp drive with regards to, you know, kind of the ferocity of which

02:57:31.060 they're, you know, approaching this thing because she, she's out there.

02:57:35.520 All right.

02:57:36.000 Hopefully she's still alive, but you know, that's what they're thinking about.

02:57:38.760 And this thing's got to get moving.

02:57:41.840 I mean, if I may add to what James would say.

02:57:43.820 They're releasing a statement today that, um, I'll give you the floor in one second, but

02:57:47.180 they're releasing a statement today talking about the number of tips they've gotten.

02:57:50.820 I don't know.

02:57:51.340 The Pima County Sheriff's Department and the FBI continue to follow up on all leads.

02:57:54.260 We thank the media and the public for the thousands of tips submitted.

02:57:56.680 Um, they, the Sheriff's Department alone has received nearly 18,000 calls since February

02:58:01.780 1st, more than 4,000 of those in the last 24 hours in the wake of that, those pictures

02:58:06.280 that we've been talking about several hundred detectives and agents currently assigned to

02:58:09.540 the case.

02:58:10.100 You'll continue to see increased law enforcement activity throughout Pima County.

02:58:13.580 Uh, we're working around the clock.

02:58:15.120 We encourage anybody with, with actionable info to call 1-800-CALL-FBI or the Sheriff's

02:58:20.300 Department.

02:58:20.680 Um, then they go on to talk about the one adult male detained Tuesday has been released

02:58:25.320 after speaking with investigators.

02:58:26.620 This was part of a follow-on of incoming leads.

02:58:30.180 As with any investigation, we do not release the identities of individuals who are detained

02:58:33.200 and later released without charges.

02:58:34.800 Uh, and then they say the FBI is handling all aspects related to any ransom notes or communications

02:58:39.080 involving the Guthrie family.

02:58:41.240 Inquiries about that should go there.

02:58:43.440 No press briefing scheduled at this time, which I have to say is a little odd, you guys, because

02:58:49.060 the press is their number one ally.

02:58:52.540 If they're just looking for a missing person, you know, if they're just trying to get the

02:58:56.200 word out there, we are how they do it, which does suggest to me that they may suspect that

02:59:02.620 Nancy's no longer with us, that this is switched over to a good old fashioned crime case, possible

02:59:08.280 murder case.

02:59:09.320 And that's why they don't need to keep running out and updating us because now you're just

02:59:13.740 revealing facts that'll be brought to trial against the potential murderer.

02:59:17.920 It's, they don't really need our help anymore because there's not, there's not in their

02:59:21.480 judgment and urgency.

02:59:22.940 What do you, that's just a supposition.

02:59:24.880 And what do you think?

02:59:25.960 I think that's right.

02:59:26.800 And if you look at yesterday was the greatest press conference.

02:59:29.580 We received more information yesterday from Cash Patel in that post that he did with those

02:59:35.260 images than we've received at all at any time throughout this entire investigation.

02:59:40.460 So I'm happy with what we got yesterday.

02:59:42.720 Yep.

02:59:44.780 I mean, it does seem to me normally that would be accompanied by a presser where they're

02:59:48.940 like, as you can see, the suspect is wearing a backpack.

02:59:51.800 He's wearing, and they would say things like you guys have been saying, like, please look

02:59:54.680 out for the following things.

02:59:55.680 Look for somebody who behaves differently.

02:59:57.200 Look for this, look for that.

02:59:58.580 They're not.

02:59:59.780 So they've gone more tight lipped.

03:00:02.180 All of this will become clear to us.

03:00:03.560 I'm sure at some point on why.

03:00:04.820 But right now, we're 26 hours post the release of that explosive tape and those explosive

03:00:12.240 pictures.

03:00:13.460 And right now, maybe the magic tip is in the inbox right now, but no one is under arrest

03:00:18.880 and nor have they declared a person of interest.

03:00:21.240 This has been another epic day.

03:00:22.980 Maureen, I mean, I don't know, like, we just met a few days ago, but I feel like you're

03:00:26.400 family to me now.

03:00:27.540 We spent, I've seen you more than I've seen my husband over the past few days.

03:00:30.860 Oh my gosh.

03:00:31.560 My first day, I'm supposed to be on for a 10-minute hit, two and a half hours, two hours

03:00:35.540 and 45 minutes later, with images that are like thumbnails in front of me that I'm analyzing.

03:00:40.900 But I'd solve this crime.

03:00:42.580 I know.

03:00:42.860 Yeah.

03:00:43.160 But I don't want anyone to-

03:00:44.440 But we're really grateful.

03:00:45.460 Thank you.

03:00:46.280 Thanks for the opportunity.

03:00:47.400 But I don't want anyone to think that even though we're, you know, poking fun at this

03:00:53.720 offender at the front door, not poking fun at him, but a little bit, I don't want

03:00:58.180 to downplay how frightening that image must have been to Nancy.

03:01:04.020 And it breaks my heart that she had to endure that, was even, you know, was even within a

03:01:13.580 hundred miles of what she had to deal with.

03:01:16.740 I just, all of us in law enforcement, I mean, you know, all my law enforcement partners and

03:01:22.560 family members and everything, we have the heart of a lion when it comes to victims.

03:01:27.900 And 30 years in law enforcement is 30 years as being a victim advocate.

03:01:32.500 And we care more than we show half the time.

03:01:35.700 But we try to be the, you know, St. Michael, the archangel when it comes to victims.

03:01:40.820 And that's what we're all trying to do right now.

03:01:43.900 By we, I mean them.

03:01:45.180 I'm out of the game.

03:01:46.540 But now I'm just a security expert, like you two guys, like Will and James.

03:01:50.660 No, I wouldn't say you're out of the game.

03:01:53.300 I mean, I think that law enforcement is probably getting a lot of good ideas from listening

03:01:56.860 to discussions like this.

03:01:58.240 I mean, by the brain trust that may no longer work in government for obvious reasons, but

03:02:03.120 still has a lot of thoughts on what a good lead is and what things should be pursued and

03:02:08.320 which shouldn't.

03:02:10.080 All I can think of when I see that picture of the guy, like the close-up picture that you

03:02:14.380 pointed out, Maureen, of the lips, is Nancy Guthrie was a single woman. 0.98

03:02:21.500 And she'd been a single woman for 40 years.

03:02:25.800 I think she was in her 40s when her husband died.

03:02:29.240 And every single woman at a time or two when going to bed alone in their home has worried 0.86

03:02:37.040 about the boogeyman.

03:02:38.180 You know, you lock your doors, you lock your windows, you have a security system, and you

03:02:44.220 put your trust in those things protecting you.

03:02:46.800 But the boogeyman showed up in Nancy Guthrie's house, and we believe in her bedroom.

03:02:52.500 And he definitely hurt her and took her.

03:02:56.920 And the only piece we're missing now is what happened next and who?

03:03:01.860 What happened next and who?

03:03:03.100 We have hope on the what happened next question, that possibly he's got her, possibly she's

03:03:09.360 still alive, notwithstanding the heart issues, the high blood pressure, the pacemaker, the

03:03:14.140 no meds, the enormous stress, the bleeding, hoping against hope that it comes out the way

03:03:20.300 we want.

03:03:21.120 And you know what?

03:03:22.160 Having been in news for many, many years, miracles do happen.

03:03:26.080 Elizabeth Smart walked down that road one day, and all of us who thought she was dead found

03:03:32.240 out, she wasn't.

03:03:33.340 It can happen.

03:03:35.280 We had a kidnapped little boy here in Los Angeles, and we worked this case like there

03:03:40.400 was no tomorrow, and it was everybody, the local police, state police, FBI, you name it.

03:03:46.060 And we had just come off a series of other kidnappings where three small children had in fact died

03:03:52.260 during these kidnap attacks.

03:03:54.420 And it was just, we were all in a bad place mentally because, you know, you can't prepare

03:04:00.320 yourself for that.

03:04:01.400 We found that kid alive after a week.

03:04:05.280 Wow.

03:04:06.780 So miracles happen.

03:04:09.880 Yeah, I've had similar.

03:04:10.740 That's right.

03:04:11.180 And maybe, maybe the $6 million, maybe it did go to the bad guys.

03:04:16.340 Maybe, maybe it's going to shake something loose.

03:04:19.060 I mean, I know we're not hopeful, but you never know.

03:04:21.400 Yeah, go ahead, Will.

03:04:22.360 Yeah, no, I had similar.

03:04:23.520 I had a case in Brazil where the two daughters of a businessman were taken, and they were

03:04:29.400 very young.

03:04:30.580 And one of the biggest concerns you always have is how professional the kidnappers are.

03:04:34.360 If they're very professional and it's a transactional business, then it's pretty straight forward.

03:04:38.160 But this was a bit of a Mickey Mouse group and a bit amateurish, to put it mildly.

03:04:43.200 So the safeguarding and the welfare of the, of the two girls was absolutely essential.

03:04:48.760 And we were, it was precarious, to put it mildly, because the contacts and contact preparation

03:04:54.820 was just constant.

03:04:56.040 And, but ultimately the two girls came back. 0.97

03:04:58.320 They were fine, you know, counseling, but in physical good condition, which was great.

03:05:04.520 Wow.

03:05:05.440 Well, I mean, we're all praying for that result here.

03:05:07.620 And at a minimum, if we can get to who, we might be able to get to what happened and

03:05:13.120 accountability.

03:05:13.760 And then get to hammer time.

03:05:14.400 Thank you all, James, Will.

03:05:16.980 Exactly right.

03:05:18.120 You too, Maureen.

03:05:18.840 It's a pleasure.

03:05:19.360 We'll see you, I'm sure, tomorrow.

03:05:20.400 Thanks for having me.

03:05:20.960 See you soon.

03:05:21.280 Thank you.

03:05:22.040 Thanks to all of you too.

03:05:23.260 Thanks for watching.

03:05:24.100 Thanks to all of you on YouTube watching live today.

03:05:26.680 And we will see tomorrow.

03:05:28.340 We're going on a little trip with the fam for President's Day holiday, but we will be doing

03:05:34.560 shows every day, of course.

03:05:35.680 Because we're as into this story as you are, and I just feel like we're not going to rest

03:05:40.780 until we know what's happened.

03:05:42.380 So God bless you all.

03:05:43.380 Thank you.

03:05:43.740 Stay safe.

03:05:44.420 We'll talk tomorrow.

03:05:47.300 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

03:05:49.180 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - February 11, 2026

Nancy Guthrie Nest Camera Questions, Savannah Stalker Possibilities, and Bitcoin Rumblings, with FBI and Security Experts ｜ Ep. 1250

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