The Megyn Kelly Show - NBA's China Hypocrisy on Human Rights and COVID Reality, with Enes Kanter Freedom and David Leonhardt ｜ Ep. 215

00:00:00.560 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:12.220 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:00:17.020 Christmas is coming and it's time to do your shopping.

00:00:19.580 We've got a big show for you today while you surf online or get about your business.

00:00:24.460 Just a bit later, we're going to be talking about the latest on COVID,

00:00:26.700 from vaccines to variants, with David Leonhardt of The New York Times,

00:00:30.860 who has been doing some of the best reporting on COVID of anyone in the mainstream media.

00:00:36.520 Really looking forward to that conversation.

00:00:38.380 And some new information just coming out today on the booster shots.

00:00:42.220 If you've had double Pfizer's, should you get the third shot, if you're going to get one, from J&J?

00:00:49.360 Wait until you hear what they just found.

00:00:52.640 We're going to get to all of that.

00:00:53.760 Plus, New York City's Mayor de Blasio has lost his mind and so has Oregon.

00:00:57.400 But we begin this hour with NBA player Ennis Cantor Freedom,

00:01:02.060 who's taking on anyone he believes is remaining too silent when it comes to China's human rights abuses.

00:01:08.360 Wall Street, big business, Hollywood, and even the NBA's biggest stars.

00:01:13.020 Meanwhile, he has become an American citizen.

00:01:15.680 In his place for the Boston Celtics, he's currently in L.A.

00:01:18.400 to match up against LeBron James' Lakers tomorrow night.

00:01:21.760 And he joins me now.

00:01:23.500 Ennis, welcome and congratulations on becoming an American.

00:01:27.260 Thank you for having me. I appreciate that.

00:01:29.660 It's amazing.

00:01:30.400 All right. So just for our viewers and our listeners who don't know your background,

00:01:34.600 tell us a little bit about where you grew up in your childhood.

00:01:37.360 You know, I'm born in Switzerland and I grew up in Turkey.

00:01:42.660 And, you know, my whole life, you know, I was a Turkish citizen.

00:01:47.040 And I moved to America when I was, you know, 70 years old to come here and go to college

00:01:52.860 and play basketball at the same time because, you know, for me and for my family,

00:01:57.040 education was always so important.

00:01:58.920 And I moved here back in 2009 and I've been living here since.

00:02:02.620 Is basketball big in Turkey?

00:02:06.100 It's the second biggest sport. Soccer is obviously number one.

00:02:09.640 And basketball comes second.

00:02:11.500 Okay. So how did you get so good, right?

00:02:14.340 Because if you're coming over here to play basketball at age 17, you must have been a standout.

00:02:18.720 You know, I actually wanted to be a soccer player.

00:02:20.900 And obviously I was too slow for it.

00:02:24.420 And all my friends were telling me, like, listen, you need to switch sports.

00:02:28.420 And I started playing basketball actually pretty late.

00:02:31.000 I was 14 years old when I first started.

00:02:33.540 Wow.

00:02:33.680 And I was good at it.

00:02:35.220 I was the tallest part of my classroom.

00:02:37.600 And, you know, I was like, happened to be 6'11 now.

00:02:43.120 So 6'11. Wow.

00:02:44.420 So who brought you over to the United States? 0.85

00:02:48.380 You know, I have pretty much like a life coach.

00:02:52.960 And he brought me, he's like, listen, you know, in Turkey, you're only going to play basketball.

00:02:57.300 That's it.

00:02:57.740 But if you come to America, obviously you're going to have, you're going to get the best education.

00:03:02.400 You're going to have a degree.

00:03:04.020 And obviously after that, you're going to play in the best basketball league in the world.

00:03:08.220 And that really attracted me, you know, because my dad was a genetic player professor.

00:03:13.060 And, you know, he always wanted me to be a, you know, good student for one of a good basketball player.

00:03:19.440 So that was, that was the biggest reason that I chose to come to America.

00:03:24.340 So you come over here and you don't have family, right?

00:03:26.300 Because your dad had to stay behind.

00:03:28.480 Exactly.

00:03:29.480 Wow.

00:03:29.940 I didn't have no family, no mom, no dad, no siblings.

00:03:33.420 I just came here all by myself.

00:03:35.500 And how long did it take for you to get into the NBA?

00:03:40.420 It pretty much took two years.

00:03:44.160 You know, one year I went to a prep school here in California, and then I went to college in Kentucky.

00:03:50.840 And then I got drafted by Utah Jazz.

00:03:54.200 At age what?

00:03:56.040 At age 19, actually.

00:03:58.380 Oh my God.

00:03:58.720 You're telling me five years after you started to play basketball, you got drafted into the NBA.

00:04:05.320 I'm glad I picked the right sport.

00:04:08.440 That's crazy.

00:04:09.160 That's so amazing.

00:04:10.160 I mean, obviously it's a combination of natural talent and hard work.

00:04:14.620 So that's awesome.

00:04:15.880 So you get drafted.

00:04:16.560 And at this point when you were, you know, in your late teens to, you know, 20 or so,

00:04:22.540 were you active when it comes to human rights or politically in any way?

00:04:27.360 Were you active?

00:04:28.720 I actually wasn't at all.

00:04:30.360 You know, my first two years in the league, all I cared about was just playing basketball.

00:04:35.880 Playing basketball, having fun with my teammates, trying to win games.

00:04:39.980 And it all started back in, you know, my third year, back in 2013.

00:04:44.120 That was the first time I started to, you know, pay attention about what's going on around the world more.

00:04:51.920 And why?

00:04:52.960 Because, I mean, obviously we're talking to you today about the stance you've taken on China.

00:04:56.860 Because it's so unusual.

00:04:58.720 I mean, we've been covering it for a long time as news people saying, why don't, why don't people like LeBron James speak up?

00:05:05.200 You know, and I had Mark Cuban on my show when I first launched it a year ago and I pressed him.

00:05:10.240 Why don't you speak up?

00:05:11.340 You're so big on BLM.

00:05:12.740 What let's like, what about the human rights abuses in China where, you know, you take a lot of money from?

00:05:18.340 And no one does.

00:05:19.460 So it's so unusual that you, to hear you, it was like, wait, I don't follow sports.

00:05:23.940 Forgive me.

00:05:24.260 And so I was like, who is this guy?

00:05:25.440 What's he saying?

00:05:25.900 Oh my God, this is so unusual.

00:05:27.660 So what led you to China as a cause? 0.83

00:05:31.440 You know, I remember, you know, when I was nine years old, my mom told me that, you know, stand up for the things that you believe and stand up for things for right.

00:05:41.460 You know, even if it means pretty much like sacrificing everything you have.

00:05:45.540 You know, after that moment, you know, I was just standing up for the right things, everything, every time.

00:05:53.460 You know, back in 2013, there was a corruption scandal happening in Turkey and a Turkish president and his family was involved in it.

00:06:02.060 And that was the first time I said something because I know what, you know, he started to put people in jail, you know, police, judges and persecutors.

00:06:10.060 And I was like, this is just not right.

00:06:11.980 And obviously, I said something and because of the platform, it became a big conversation here in the United States and Turkey.

00:06:20.160 And I was like, wow, even one word, my one sentence can make this much of an impact.

00:06:26.480 So from now on, I'm going to start paying attention about like what's going on around the world more.

00:06:30.660 So I started to, you know, study about, you know, Turkey, relationship between Turkey and America, you know, foreign policy and everything.

00:06:39.440 And I remember my teammates were going out to eat and hang out and party and stuff.

00:06:44.060 I was just going back home and study.

00:06:47.160 That's smart.

00:06:48.260 So, but Turkey's not so big on your messaging or on free speech in general.

00:06:52.680 And as I understand it, how many, how many arrest warrants have they issued for you now?

00:06:59.200 The last four years, I got 10 of them.

00:07:01.800 10.

00:07:02.620 Excellent.

00:07:03.180 So you won't, you won't be going home anytime soon.

00:07:05.920 Definitely not.

00:07:06.480 But this is your home now.

00:07:08.860 You've chosen to live here and you've actually chosen, as we said at the top, to become an American citizen.

00:07:14.080 So why was that important to you?

00:07:17.720 You know, to me, it was very important because I remember the day I stepped in this country back in 2009.

00:07:23.280 This was my dream to become a citizen.

00:07:25.380 And obviously, I talk about this Turkish issue so much, they revoked my passport, put my name on Interpol list.

00:07:33.720 So I didn't have a home.

00:07:35.840 I didn't, I was a person who was stateless, you know.

00:07:39.760 And, you know, last time I was back at home, it was back in 2015.

00:07:45.040 And that was the last time I saw my family.

00:07:47.440 So American people opened their arm and gave me a warm welcome from day one.

00:07:52.000 They gave me the opportunity to become myself.

00:07:55.020 They gave me the opportunity to become one of the best, play in the best league in the world.

00:07:58.500 So I was very blessed to be in this situation.

00:08:00.760 So I was like, I think the best thing I can do right now is just become a part of this greatest nation.

00:08:08.620 And you actually changed your last name, right?

00:08:10.980 I mean, did you keep Cantor at all?

00:08:12.540 Is that still in there or is it just Ennis Freedom now?

00:08:15.300 Well, Cantor, obviously, I did not disrespect.

00:08:18.320 I didn't want to disrespect my family.

00:08:19.800 So I did keep Cantor and made it my middle name.

00:08:22.860 But the reason I picked Freedom is actually a funny story because first time I came to America back in 2009,

00:08:30.200 one of my teammates was criticizing the president.

00:08:33.720 And I got so scared for him.

00:08:35.000 I was like, dude, what are you doing?

00:08:36.180 They're going to put you in jail.

00:08:37.720 He turned around and said, listen, this is not America.

00:08:42.000 This is not Turkey. 0.82

00:08:43.000 This is America.

00:08:44.060 You know, you can, you have a freedom.

00:08:46.080 I was very shocked, you know.

00:08:47.760 And then the more I lived here, I learned about obviously freedom of speech, religion, expression, freedom of press.

00:08:55.240 And I saw a lot of, you know, democracy and everything.

00:08:57.920 So it was for me, it was very, I was, I was just very shocked to learn about all this stuff, you know.

00:09:05.780 And I wanted to make that word part of me.

00:09:08.460 So that's why for me, it was very important to add freedom.

00:09:11.420 I wanted to carry that word everywhere I go.

00:09:12.960 You probably know that there's a push, especially on college campuses now, to erode that freedom, the freedom of speech.

00:09:21.260 You can't say this.

00:09:22.080 You can't say that.

00:09:22.940 Words are violence.

00:09:24.360 You know, certain opinions should not be offered.

00:09:26.800 Certain speakers should not be allowed on campus.

00:09:28.940 It never used to be this way.

00:09:30.640 This is a relatively new phenomenon.

00:09:32.340 I've spoken out against it.

00:09:35.160 Many have, because we're more old school, believing in the First Amendment.

00:09:39.400 But as somebody who's got your interesting background and perspective, what do you make of what's happening now with that?

00:09:45.660 I mean, I don't know about the situation, but I think, you know, like the First Amendment is the greatest amendment, you know, freedom of speech.

00:09:55.080 And obviously, you know, I mean, people should be very blessed because just because of the tweets you put out there or just because of the speeches that you talk, you're not going to be put in jails.

00:10:05.180 So I think it is important for people to speak their mind because that is going to bring the change.

00:10:12.540 You know, people need to wake up and speak up about, you know, issues are not just happening in America, but all over the world.

00:10:18.600 So it is important to use that amendment.

00:10:22.180 That's right.

00:10:22.920 And it's worth fighting for.

00:10:23.940 It's worth fighting for, even if people are going to say things to you that you might not like to hear either way.

00:10:29.160 Okay, so you're a true believer.

00:10:31.820 I know you love the country.

00:10:32.700 I mean, the converts always are, right?

00:10:35.120 Whether it's religion or citizenship, they're the truest believers. 0.92

00:10:40.600 So you take a look at what's happening in China and find it very disturbing, I'm sure for a number of reasons.

00:10:46.940 I understand you're Muslim.

00:10:49.320 Yes.

00:10:50.320 And what's happening to the Chinese minorities, the Muslims there, the Uyghurs, is horrific. 1.00

00:10:57.200 I mean, it's truly an ethnic cleansing underway right there. 0.88

00:11:00.020 Is that what caught your interest?

00:11:02.020 Is that why this became important to you?

00:11:04.860 You know, I remember doing a basketball camp this summer, and I was taking pictures with the kids.

00:11:09.700 And one of the parents, right, turned around and said, how can you call yourself a human right activist when your Muslim brothers and sisters are in concentration camps and getting tortured and raped every day? 0.95

00:11:21.380 I was shocked. 0.97

00:11:22.720 I turned around to that parent.

00:11:24.220 I was like, I promise you I'm going to get back to you.

00:11:26.320 And I remember I had so much things scheduled that day.

00:11:29.640 I canceled everything.

00:11:31.280 I went back to my hotel.

00:11:32.960 And I started to study and research about what's going on.

00:11:36.540 And the more I read, the more I was ashamed of myself because I was like, I could not believe the last 10 years.

00:11:42.380 I was just blindly was focusing on only one topic, and it was Turkey.

00:11:47.720 And I was like, I'm going to do everything I can to just change that, you know.

00:11:51.640 And, you know, I started to do research, and the more research I have done, I saw what Tibetans are going through, what Uyghur people are going through, what Hong Kongers are going through, what Taiwanese are going through, what Mongolians are going through.

00:12:05.980 So it did break my heart.

00:12:07.780 And I was like, you know, I don't know how many years that I've been left in the league, but for now I'm going to do everything I can to bring some real change because many people are very, very scared.

00:12:17.760 So I was like, you know what, I remember what my mom told me when I was nine years old.

00:12:22.220 I'm just going to do what I can to help those people.

00:12:26.300 Now, when you did your research, did it bring up the tweet by Houston Rockets GM Daryl Morey, who tweeted support for Hong Kong?

00:12:36.620 A tiny little tweet which caused such a major controversy.

00:12:42.100 I remember, you know, following that tweet two years ago.

00:12:46.240 And, you know, when he put the tweet out there, and obviously after that, after he deleted it, I saw the reaction that the league came.

00:12:54.760 I was just very disgusted, very shocked.

00:12:59.360 I was like, wow.

00:13:00.460 So, like, NBA is the one that's encouraging us to stand up for the things that we believe in.

00:13:06.680 Not just in America, but all over the world.

00:13:08.660 But just because of China's paying the bills, right? 0.74

00:13:11.600 The NBA is making billions of dollars.

00:13:13.240 I was like, listen, I'm not going to, this is just crazy to me.

00:13:19.360 And I was just following what was going on.

00:13:22.520 And it did break my heart.

00:13:23.540 I was like, I'm going to do more research.

00:13:25.800 And I did, you know, the thing is, I did not watch YouTube clips.

00:13:28.640 I did not watch reports.

00:13:32.100 I actually sit down with the concentration camp survivors.

00:13:34.960 I sit down with Hong Kongers. 0.95

00:13:36.600 I sit down with Tibetans.

00:13:38.080 I sit down with, you know, Taiwanese people.

00:13:40.300 And I had a conversation with them.

00:13:41.480 Because I wanted to hear from firsthand what they are going through.

00:13:44.740 And I remember going, sitting down with this concentration camp survivor.

00:13:48.100 And the things that she was telling me, it was, it was, I just, I don't, I don't know if any human being can hold his tears up, hold their tears up while listening to her.

00:13:59.760 She was telling me about how she was getting gang rape every day. 0.98

00:14:02.380 She was getting tortured every day.

00:14:03.840 She was telling me about some of the, you know, the torture methods that they were doing.

00:14:08.040 And I was like, I couldn't believe it.

00:14:10.220 You know, the more I listened, the more I was shaming myself.

00:14:12.460 And I was like, I'm going to do everything I can.

00:14:15.140 I'm going to use this platform to be the first one ever to bring some real change.

00:14:22.280 Well, that, that's underway.

00:14:25.520 What's fascinating about Ennis is he's done so much more than Daryl Morey.

00:14:30.140 I mean, good for Daryl for, for taking the risk and sending out that tweet on Hong Kong.

00:14:34.640 But it was an earthquake within the NBA because that's an organization that up to now does not allow criticism of China.

00:14:43.180 They make too much money off of Chinese business and doing business in China and with the Chinese.

00:14:49.160 And so for Ennis to speak out in the way he has, and we'll get into the specifics in a minute, is truly courageous.

00:14:54.260 And I'm wondering about the blowback.

00:14:56.740 We'll pick it up there right after this quick break.

00:15:04.640 So, Ennis, you decided to speak out about China and its human rights abuses, and they're awful.

00:15:11.740 I mean, you could go down the list.

00:15:13.020 I can see a couple of them right on your shirt.

00:15:15.380 But in particular, any company, any country committing an ethnic genocide ought to be called out.

00:15:21.540 But so many here have been terrified to do it.

00:15:24.800 And most notably the NBA, which makes a lot of money off of China every year.

00:15:29.640 So, in particular, you went after LeBron James, tweeting, money over morals for the king.

00:15:38.400 That's his nickname.

00:15:39.260 And they really do shut up and dribble when the big boss says so. 0.95

00:15:43.740 What is it about LeBron James in particular that led you to single him out on his unwillingness to criticize China?

00:15:50.580 Obviously, not just him.

00:15:53.120 I did criticize many other athletes.

00:15:55.160 But when it comes to him, obviously, he is the face of the NBA.

00:15:58.800 And when Daryl Moore tweeted something about it two years ago, when the media asked him about it, he said, well, he's not educated enough.

00:16:06.420 And also, he said Daryl hurt the league, and the league's been having tough times and stuff.

00:16:13.940 That really opened my eyes.

00:16:16.120 I just couldn't believe it.

00:16:17.460 You know, but obviously, before everything, he is pretty much the face of Nike.

00:16:24.620 And Nike is the biggest sponsor of the NBA.

00:16:28.340 And to me, the important thing is I want to tell not just him, but all the athletes, you need to educate yourself before you put your signature on a paper and sign these millions of dollars of deals with these companies where they are pretty much modern-day slavery,

00:16:43.940 where they're using slave labor and sweatshirts.

00:16:47.460 And to me, it was a hypocrisy when an athlete talks about social justice issues.

00:16:55.880 But when it comes to Nike or China, they remain in silence.

00:16:59.840 So to me, it was very, very hard to see.

00:17:06.620 So I was like, I have to say something about it.

00:17:08.540 But wait, do you think the problem is that LeBron James doesn't know about China's human rights abuses?

00:17:14.700 I mean, I'm not sure.

00:17:16.960 I need to.

00:17:17.520 The thing is, I need to sit down and have a conversation.

00:17:19.520 And I hope he does, you know, and I'm sure he does.

00:17:24.460 But it's just like, like I said, again, he's not the only one.

00:17:27.460 You see, there's so many athletes, you know, out there are making millions of dollars from these companies, which are, they are born to China.

00:17:36.520 So I feel like they need to, if they're not educated, they need to sit down with someone and educate them.

00:17:41.880 There's no way that LeBron James at this point does not know about the ethnic genocide in China and the forced labor.

00:17:48.520 There's just that Nike uses, though it denies it.

00:17:51.820 Don't you think the more likely scenario is he just chooses not to make that an issue for himself and that, you know, the checks keep getting cashed and it's just too lucrative a deal?

00:18:04.480 I mean, that's what I said.

00:18:05.940 I was like, you know, morals over money, principles and values over money.

00:18:09.720 You know, I couldn't sleep at night when I know that my brothers and sisters are going through, you know, genocide.

00:18:18.420 I couldn't sleep at night.

00:18:20.220 So I'm hoping in my heart that he just doesn't know.

00:18:23.780 I'm sure he does, but in my heart, I'm just hoping that he doesn't know, you know, because a human being cannot wear their shoes or wear those items and go out there and play when they know that what people are going through pretty much a genocide.

00:18:39.480 Because there is so much blood and sweat and oppression on those items.

00:18:43.180 So it's just unacceptable.

00:18:44.900 Mm hmm.

00:18:45.940 He LeBron James in November was asked about your criticism.

00:18:49.160 He said, you are not someone that you're not someone he will give his energy to.

00:18:54.460 He went on to say that you had an opportunity to speak with him after a game, but instead you walked by, walked by him in the hallway.

00:19:01.900 He said, you're trying to use him to create an opportunity for yourself.

00:19:06.440 Your response.

00:19:07.760 I mean, this is, it's unbelievable because first of all, I did see him on the court, but the tunnel thing, I actually stopped to take a picture with a kid.

00:19:16.780 And he was one, literally was behind me and walked right past me.

00:19:21.020 And I, but actually my assistant coach was with me, but I'm not going to just go back and forth or you did, you saw me.

00:19:27.780 I just want to have us literally see, have a sit down and conversation and ask him about like, and how I don't, you know, the important thing is we need to find a way to these athletes to join the right cults.

00:19:41.680 You know, because that's when we're going to have the real change, you know, criticizing obviously is important.

00:19:47.780 It wakes people up.

00:19:49.000 The important thing is how, what, what can I do to make, you know, this, you know, superstars like, you know, Steph, LeBron, Kevin Durant or this, you know, not just the sport athlete, but it's a sports world.

00:20:00.500 It's not that hard.

00:20:01.920 It's really not that hard.

00:20:02.840 And by the way, before I, before I get into my example, are you going to try to speak with him tomorrow night at the game?

00:20:08.240 I mean, I hope so.

00:20:09.480 That's my goal because I do, I do want to sit down and have a conversation with him because once he joins, once other joins, it's going to be even a bigger cause.

00:20:18.320 Great.

00:20:18.960 I look forward to seeing how that goes, but you're right.

00:20:22.140 It's not that hard.

00:20:23.040 I mean, we're seeing the Women's Tennis Association do it right now.

00:20:25.580 The head of the organization say we will not be playing any tournaments in China.

00:20:30.260 And that until we find out what happened to missing tennis player Peng Shui and all the nonsense about people having spoken to her, the IOC saying, oh yeah, we've spoken to her.

00:20:39.000 No one has reason to believe what they're saying.

00:20:40.880 They've covered for China for a long time, IOC.

00:20:43.940 But it's not only IOC.

00:20:45.620 And I've been very critical in the past of Naomi Osaka for other reasons.

00:20:48.840 To her credit, she spoke out directly on behalf of Peng Shui saying we need real answers.

00:20:54.460 So did Serena Williams.

00:20:55.240 So these are the biggest stars in tennis and the in particular women's tennis having no qualms about calling out China. 1.00

00:21:05.280 And it does hurt their bottom line.

00:21:07.800 But LeBron James, who's very outspoken on other issues and and the others, you know, he's not the only one.

00:21:13.720 You're right.

00:21:14.040 Won't say anything.

00:21:15.540 So what's the matter?

00:21:16.360 Because they're already multimillionaires.

00:21:18.320 You know what I mean?

00:21:18.740 How many millions do they need?

00:21:21.240 I mean, first of all, every major association in America should take notes about what WTA is doing.

00:21:27.060 I mean, I applaud their courage.

00:21:28.560 And I just wish that, you know, not just them, if the other leagues, other organizations started to join, you know, with tennis association, it's going to bring a real change.

00:21:38.640 That's what we need to do.

00:21:40.120 And, you know, you see, that's how, you know, it's like Serena Williams, Thomas.

00:21:44.920 It's just that's the athletes that we need to look up to.

00:21:48.620 You know, those are so important persons to just, they are standing up for what's right.

00:21:52.800 They don't care about the millions of dollars coming from China, endorsement deals, this and that.

00:21:58.560 You know, they're standing up for the right things.

00:22:00.560 And I feel like that's what we all need to do.

00:22:03.880 I can understand if an athlete doesn't want to get political at all, just wants to make it about the basketball.

00:22:08.460 Like that, to me, makes some sense.

00:22:10.220 But if you're going to be an activist, I mean, it does seem a little odd to let this be the one country you won't say anything about.

00:22:18.460 There's a difference, you know, between being political and standing up for human rights.

00:22:23.460 I never, my whole, you know, time, I never said, oh, we should vote for this guy.

00:22:28.780 We should stand up for.

00:22:30.000 No, I'm only saying what you see in all my interviews, I'm saying, standing up for human rights, standing up for democracy, standing up for human rights.

00:22:37.920 Let's be the voice of innocent people out there, not just in America, but all over the world.

00:22:42.080 So I don't do politics.

00:22:43.480 I do human rights.

00:22:44.300 There is a big difference.

00:22:45.380 And so I'm, I'm inviting all these athletes, not just athletes, but you see like hypocrite, you know, actors like John Cena or like many other people out there are just like scared to say something.

00:22:56.040 It was crazy. 0.95

00:22:57.400 John Cena, what he, what he did was absolutely nuts.

00:23:01.500 Um, he spoke out in Taiwan and then he got publicly shamed and then he spent, I mean, he did the most groveling apology about Taiwan and its independence. 0.96

00:23:10.340 It was pathetic, but you, you walk the walk.

00:23:13.700 I mean, I just looking at the people you've made appearances with, not many people can say that they have been invited to and did make public appearances with both Gavin Newsom, Hakeem Jeffries on the one side and Senator Tim Scott and Tom Cotton on the other. 0.97

00:23:27.600 You're, you've been with ambassador John Bolton and Adam Schiff.

00:23:30.940 I mean, you, you really do live it.

00:23:32.900 And I appreciate that you go on MSNBC, you go on Fox.

00:23:36.600 Um, it did lead me to wonder whether you might be planning a future in politics so you could actually make a difference in other ways too.

00:23:44.720 If not that you're not now, you are doing something important now.

00:23:47.560 Right.

00:23:48.140 You know, it is important to put the right people in politics because it can literally change the country's direction.

00:23:54.780 So, you know, I, I, when I sit down with so many, you know, politicians, Democrats and Republicans, you know, the first thing that tell them is like, listen, you have a bright future in politics.

00:24:05.240 So after your basketball career, please consider it.

00:24:08.080 And I was like, you know what?

00:24:09.160 I am actually considering it, you know, after my basketball career, I don't know how long I'm going to be playing in the NBA, but after my sports career, for sure.

00:24:17.560 I've loved it.

00:24:18.360 You know, just started getting American politics.

00:24:20.220 That's amazing.

00:24:21.860 Now, wait, I have to ask you because I did read that, um, that after you express support for Tibet, uh, the Celtics games were pulled from Chinese media.

00:24:31.960 So have you gotten any blowback from your team or your fellow players for that?

00:24:38.180 You know, my teammates are my biggest supporters.

00:24:41.060 They are the one that give me so much hope and motivation to fight for what's right.

00:24:44.900 It was disgusting to see, you know, just because if I put a free Tibet on my feet and went out there to play, my manager texted me at halftime.

00:24:53.860 I said, listen, man, all Celtics games in China are banned.

00:24:57.520 And that shows one more time.

00:24:59.000 There's a dictatorship happening that can show clearly the whole world just because if I put the shows and it's like, are you kidding me?

00:25:06.520 They're like, why are you?

00:25:07.100 Free Tibet on your sneakers and you get, and the Celtics get basically kicked out of Chinese television.

00:25:12.460 So they're supportive of you.

00:25:15.100 I mean, that's amazing.

00:25:15.860 Given what happened to Daryl Morey again, who just sent out a little tweet about Hong Kong and then everyone rained down on him in the NBA.

00:25:22.860 I'll tell you, I'll tell you this story.

00:25:24.320 Not many people knows about, like, I remember wearing those shoes right before the game.

00:25:28.000 There's two gentlemen came from the NBA and said, take those shoes off.

00:25:32.400 I'm like, excuse me?

00:25:33.740 He said, yep, take those shoes off. 0.71

00:25:34.940 I was like, I'm not taking the shoes off.

00:25:37.060 They're like, listen, we are begging you to take those shoes off.

00:25:39.280 And I asked him, like, am I breaking any rules?

00:25:41.360 They said, no.

00:25:42.460 Then I said, okay.

00:25:43.660 I was like, there is 27 amendments because I'm getting ready for my, I was getting ready for my citizenship.

00:25:47.920 That's not my first amendment of freedom of speech and you're taking that away from me.

00:25:51.540 And after that, I was like, go tell your boss.

00:25:55.320 I don't care if I get banned or fine.

00:25:57.220 I'm not taking the shoes off.

00:25:59.120 Wow.

00:25:59.780 And that game, I played zero minutes.

00:26:04.320 Wait, who was it who told you to take them off?

00:26:07.240 Some NBA officials.

00:26:09.000 Literally right before the game, while I was on a bench.

00:26:11.340 So not your team, not your team officials, but NBA officials.

00:26:15.680 They, you know, they told me to, obviously they wanted to take me to locker room to take my shoes off.

00:26:20.520 And then after that, I told them, no, I'm not going to take my shoes off.

00:26:23.520 And in halftime, they came and apologized.

00:26:26.320 I was like, because I told them a lot, I'm not going to take my shoes off.

00:26:29.560 And I, you know, I had a conversation with Adam Silver and I asked Adam, he's like, Adam, listen, you know, I've been getting so much like blowback and so much pressure from the league.

00:26:40.140 Am I breaking in rules?

00:26:41.480 He said, no.

00:26:42.300 He's like, okay, no, don't do not.

00:26:44.440 I'm not from now.

00:26:45.540 I don't want anyone to call me from the league to take my shoes off or put a statement out there.

00:26:49.520 Good for you.

00:26:50.720 That's amazing because he's not been so strong on all of this.

00:26:55.840 Those guys better watch it or their name's going to be on your sneaker next. 0.97

00:26:59.220 You're not afraid.

00:27:01.020 You are not afraid.

00:27:02.240 Unlike most of the, most of the guys you're playing with.

00:27:04.740 And I, I love that you're leading by example.

00:27:07.860 Now, have you spoken out on all of it from the tennis player, Peng Shui, uh, to their abuses, to Nike's abuses and so on.

00:27:15.060 And as we need dozens, hundreds more, just like you look, congrats on the path you're taking.

00:27:20.040 And on your new citizenship, I'm proud to call you an American.

00:27:25.680 Thanks for having me.

00:27:26.700 I really appreciate that.

00:27:27.620 It's an honor.

00:27:28.840 All the best.

00:27:29.900 Wow.

00:27:30.360 Amazing, right?

00:27:31.160 Just a little dose of courage to start your week with.

00:27:34.140 It is inspirational.

00:27:35.440 This guy's been labeled an international terrorist by Turkey.

00:27:38.280 Ten arrest warrants out for him because he won't stop speaking out about them.

00:27:42.280 Threatened by his own league.

00:27:43.780 His, the biggest star in the league, diminishing him and so on.

00:27:47.040 He just keeps on going.

00:27:48.820 You can too.

00:27:50.240 Coming up, we're going to talk about de Blasio's latest push on vaccine mandates with Carol Markowitz of the New York Post.

00:27:55.480 He's lost his ever love and mind.

00:27:56.580 He's only in office for another month.

00:27:57.960 What does he think he's doing?

00:27:59.040 And did you hear what Oregon is doing now when it comes to masks?

00:28:03.220 Parts of the country are losing their mind and we'll take it up right after this break.

00:28:06.620 Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly show.

00:28:07.800 Just a few hours ago, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio pulled a Bill de Blasio announcing a new COVID-19 vaccine mandate for all private businesses in the city, catching many of said businesses and citizens off guard.

00:28:24.940 It takes effect just days before he's leaving office.

00:28:29.660 And despite the fact that the city is already among the highest vaccination highest has among the highest vaccination rate rates in the country.

00:28:40.400 All right. Almost I think over 90 percent of New Yorkers have had at least one jab.

00:28:45.320 This is insane.

00:28:46.640 Doesn't matter.

00:28:47.420 It's not enough.

00:28:48.520 Joining me now, Carol Markowitz, a columnist with The New York Post.

00:28:51.540 Carol, good to have you.

00:28:52.920 Where did this come from?

00:28:54.400 You know, I think he is a really political guy who is making plans for his future.

00:29:00.400 And this is the way he's doing it.

00:29:02.380 I think this is part of his governor run, honestly.

00:29:04.980 Oh, my Lord.

00:29:05.660 He knows that he doesn't make any sense in the context of doing what's best for New York City.

00:29:12.420 But he's never done what's best for New York City.

00:29:14.460 So this is sort of just part of that.

00:29:15.880 What I've been pointing to is that shortly before he announced he was running for president, he did a big spectacle thing at Trump Tower announcing that he was going to force the Trump administration, not the Trump administration, the Trump organization to pay if they didn't retrofit their buildings to be greener.

00:29:33.480 And it was a big spectacle and it got him a lot of news.

00:29:36.460 I mean, it didn't help with his 0.0 poll numbers, but he enjoys making a big splash before he announces, I think, the next office.

00:29:45.880 And it's it's at the expense of New Yorkers, because what he's saying is that we already have in New York a mandatory a vaccine mandate for government workers.

00:29:57.080 And if you want to go into a restaurant or like a basketball game or a gym, you already have to show your vaccine card.

00:30:07.460 But now it's expanding to cover all private businesses.

00:30:11.440 And tell us about the kids.

00:30:13.260 Well, the thing is that the vaccine mandate that we have in place has not brought down covid numbers.

00:30:20.140 I also keep saying that when it was implemented in October, the idea was to bring down our covid case rate.

00:30:27.920 Right. Otherwise, what was the point?

00:30:29.600 But today we have either the same or higher case numbers than we did when that vaccine mandate was implemented.

00:30:35.880 So this is another also the scrambling to find something else to do to bring that number down, because what we've done so far has been completely ineffective.

00:30:44.680 But of course, doing the same thing over and over is the definition of insanity.

00:30:48.760 And that's the kind of crazy place that New York has become.

00:30:51.680 The idea that kids will not be allowed into indoor spaces is.

00:30:56.340 Can you explain it? I didn't I didn't set it up yet to the five to 11 year olds, what he's doing now with them.

00:31:01.140 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really wild because kids are, you know, gratefully really not susceptible to covid.

00:31:09.880 I don't think that a lot of parents are rushing out to get their five to 11 year olds vaccinated because they simply don't need it.

00:31:18.180 And if forcing them to do it, to be able to eat at restaurants or to go into museums or something is really terrible.

00:31:25.680 And it's really going to hurt New York City.

00:31:27.600 Because before you could go into a restaurant as a grown up with your littles and you could show your vaccination card, you know, you got to show your papers and your littles would not have to.

00:31:39.320 And now he's changing it such that all kids between the ages of five and 11 also have to prove that they've been vaccinated in order to eat out at a New York City restaurant or go to a Knicks game or, you know, go to some other indoor facility like a museum because Bill de Blasio says so.

00:31:56.760 So you've got to stick a needle in your five year old's arm because it's going to make him feel better during his last month in office.

00:32:01.860 And it kicks in in like two weeks, I think it says.

00:32:05.320 Well, let's see. Yeah. Next week. Next week.

00:32:08.240 So and by the way, to your point, only 10 percent of American parents have gotten a jab for their five to 11 year olds.

00:32:15.400 Parents are not rushing to be the first to try this out on their children.

00:32:19.020 Yeah. The thing is that the fact that it takes effect next week, December 14th, it's all these families that had planned to come to New York City for the holidays are now having to cancel their trips or make a really tough decision that they need to vaccinate their kids against a virus that largely does not affect them in order to make that trip.

00:32:37.280 So, you know, I hate that I have to say it, but I'm very pro-vax.

00:32:40.580 I've been vaccinated. I made sure that my mom has been boosted.

00:32:43.800 You know, I may get a booster down the road.

00:32:45.680 I I just don't see the point of vaccinating the population of children that is really not susceptible to this.

00:32:52.440 And it's it's something that parents across the country are making that same calculation.

00:32:56.340 And once again, you cannot test out of the vax mandate.

00:33:02.580 So you can't satisfy anybody by proving that you don't have covid and there's no recognition of natural immunity.

00:33:10.140 So if your kid just got over covid and is probably the most immune person walking on Earth right now because he's a kid and he just got over covid, you still have to vax him, which, by the way, may not be safe.

00:33:22.780 According to the doctors we had on my show last week, you really need to talk to your doctor before you vaccinate your child if he or she has just had covid.

00:33:29.680 But Bill de Blasio says you have to do it if you want to come and see the Rockefeller Christmas tree from anywhere indoors while sipping a hot cocoa.

00:33:37.040 Right. The lack of natural immunity being used in our society is really just another another layer of covid insanity.

00:33:45.540 You actually can come into the U.S. You can look it up on the State Department website with evidence of natural immunity.

00:33:51.220 We just don't allow it for any part of American society otherwise, which obviously makes no sense.

00:33:56.780 And also the kids that, you know, that they're pushing now to get vaccinated have also just been living in the most harshest condition.

00:34:04.280 They've been masked every day at school, including outside in New York City public schools.

00:34:09.640 And who else does that?

00:34:11.220 Who else masks that hard except the lowest risk population of children?

00:34:15.660 And it's it's all really unfortunate because I don't see a massive uprising against this.

00:34:21.140 I don't see New Yorkers deciding to say, no, we're not going to stand for it.

00:34:25.380 They've just been rolling over and it's really been depressing to see my city like this.

00:34:29.380 Yeah. Same thing inside the schools.

00:34:31.720 As you know, we've discussed why I left right rolling over on the CRT and the crazy, you know, trans education stuff, which is totally inappropriate. 1.00

00:34:39.960 And now with the covid protocols that are totally unnecessary, not backed by science.

00:34:44.080 Can I stop you for that one for a second on the masks outside and what they're doing?

00:34:50.140 So I think most of my listeners are in places where they're like, what?

00:34:54.220 Like, I don't think everybody believes we're still doing this to our kids in New York.

00:34:57.760 Yeah. And I think when I when I tell stories about what's happening in New York City schools, I get such emails like, how are you still putting up with this?

00:35:07.080 And, you know, I ask myself that all the time.

00:35:09.100 And in fact, I think this is this is it for our family.

00:35:11.460 We're leaving. This is this is the end for us.

00:35:13.820 You're doing it. But you said you might when I talked to you last.

00:35:17.660 Yeah. But this it's just I don't see an end to the crazy.

00:35:21.900 And I think that the city has really been lost, especially where kids are concerned.

00:35:25.980 They're they're put last again and again.

00:35:28.060 You know, the outdoor masking, the kids largely eat lunch outside at New York City public schools sitting on the ground when it gets too cold.

00:35:36.560 Some schools move them in. But it only started happening recently after the New York Post broke the story of that.

00:35:43.020 Largely, schools across the city are still eating lunch on the ground outside.

00:35:47.180 And that's the only time of the whole day that kids are allowed to remove their masks.

00:35:52.040 And nobody else lives like this. Doctors don't live like this.

00:35:55.220 You know, doctors leave the hospital and take their masks off.

00:35:58.020 Yet we have five year olds who take off their mask for 20 minutes to have their sandwich and have to put it right back on.

00:36:03.860 Oh, my gosh. So infuriating. David Leonhard of The New York Times is coming on in a minute.

00:36:08.700 I'm looking forward to our conversation. But one of the things he's been he really is.

00:36:12.560 He's in a position that's very powerful, right, because he works for The New York Times.

00:36:15.840 And so his audience is the group that we need to convince on some of these crazy measures.

00:36:23.140 You know, forget, you know, the larger points, but like some of these crazy measures we should be able to agree on.

00:36:28.020 Like the kids should not have to wear the masks outside.

00:36:31.540 They should not be forced to eat their lunches outside.

00:36:33.300 And one of the points he's been making is that there's basically zero evidence that you can even get COVID outside, never mind as a child, which who are they are the least effective vectors of the disease.

00:36:48.100 And actually, there was just a study that came out suggesting why that is they just have smaller lungs.

00:36:52.440 And they found out that adult men are actually the most effective spreaders of COVID and children are the least effective.

00:36:59.740 Yep. And we've seen that through the numbers.

00:37:02.300 You know, more men die of COVID than women.

00:37:04.320 It's like we just refuse to face the realities of what's happening.

00:37:08.540 And there's a reason that kids are dying in such tiny numbers.

00:37:12.840 I mean, look, every single death is a tragedy.

00:37:15.060 But we don't shut down our world.

00:37:16.820 We don't force kids to mask indefinitely when they die of the flu, for example.

00:37:20.780 And far more kids die of the flu every year than die of COVID.

00:37:24.100 So we continue to do these things that don't actually help anything.

00:37:28.640 I think that's what really drives me the craziest is I would if I thought that this worked, I would put my kids in an N95 mask. 0.98

00:37:36.920 I would be really careful.

00:37:38.440 You know, I might homeschool them.

00:37:40.100 I might, you know, push for remote learning.

00:37:42.100 If I thought they were in danger, there are things that I would do.

00:37:45.240 But they're not in danger.

00:37:46.480 We have the data.

00:37:47.380 It's been available this whole time.

00:37:48.880 It's not new.

00:37:49.960 That's the other thing.

00:37:50.740 You know, I love David Leonhardt.

00:37:52.100 I think he's an amazing writer and I love that he is bringing, you know, information that so many of the rest of us already know to the New York Times readers who haven't heard about it before.

00:38:01.060 But, you know, the information has been out there for a while.

00:38:03.880 We've known about outdoor transmission for quite some time at the end of 2021 right now.

00:38:09.300 And we had this info in the spring of 2020.

00:38:12.200 So it's it's just the gap between the information that we have and the acceptance of that information that really drives me crazy.

00:38:19.300 Yeah.

00:38:20.180 You know, it's interesting because, like, as you know, I pulled my kids from the New York schools over the crazy CRT and the other stuff that they're teaching them.

00:38:27.020 And now then the schools we found I love, actually, I really love them.

00:38:30.780 And they they're not really, you know, off the deep end on any of that stuff.

00:38:36.020 However, they are off the deep end on the covid protocols.

00:38:39.300 And I'll have listeners now comment to me, like, why don't you pull them?

00:38:42.300 You know, pull your kids home.

00:38:43.140 I'm like, do you understand?

00:38:44.480 There needs to be some stability in a child's life.

00:38:46.300 You can't just keep pulling him from school after school.

00:38:49.120 And we're trying to make this work.

00:38:50.920 You know, I just keep hoping that they're going to see reason and settle down.

00:38:55.360 But in too many pockets, especially in blue cities and blue states, it is either going another direction or at least they're comfortable with stasis where I'm not.

00:39:06.080 That's you know, you're you're speaking exactly what I think every single day.

00:39:09.920 I have people on Twitter just constantly being like, oh, just pull your kids, just homeschool, just move.

00:39:14.200 Like, it's not quite that easy.

00:39:16.380 We had pre covid.

00:39:17.480 We were never leaving New York City ever.

00:39:19.480 And this is going to be our home forever.

00:39:21.340 We're going to raise our kids here.

00:39:22.760 We had a plan for our lives.

00:39:24.140 It's not so simple to just rewrite that plan on a whim.

00:39:27.280 We have family.

00:39:28.080 We have obligations.

00:39:29.920 But yeah, you know, we have to do what's best for our kids and we have to get them out.

00:39:34.220 And what you're saying is exactly my fear of getting them out and then ending up somewhere where they might also, you know, be crazy with the covid protocols.

00:39:45.700 It's all a worry.

00:39:46.720 I have friends leaving New York City, going to New Jersey.

00:39:48.840 And I say to them, like, well, you know, you might face the same issues there.

00:39:52.140 And they're hopeful that they won't because it's a little bit more sane.

00:39:55.360 But that's not saying much.

00:39:56.840 And it's not really difficult to uproot your life to, you know, to get out.

00:40:01.700 But we're going to do it.

00:40:03.380 And I, you know, I hope other people can do the same.

00:40:07.960 Are you going back to Florida?

00:40:09.500 I know you you spent some of the time there.

00:40:11.400 You are going back to Florida, DeSantis territory.

00:40:14.760 And for these reasons, it's not about the weather.

00:40:17.160 No, you know, I always say, like, Florida always had good weather.

00:40:20.920 They always had low tax rates.

00:40:22.460 It's not that.

00:40:23.220 And like, I love Florida.

00:40:24.480 I've always loved Florida.

00:40:25.660 But it's the sanity when we lived there last year.

00:40:28.560 And the other thing is people say, like, oh, but what if DeSantis loses his election or what if Florida trends blue or whatever?

00:40:34.460 All of that is possible.

00:40:35.780 And look, DeSantis, you know, may disappoint me down the road.

00:40:38.860 Also, it's not about the politicians.

00:40:40.440 It's about the people.

00:40:42.280 Everybody I met last year in Florida, left, right, center.

00:40:45.000 Everybody was COVID seen last spring when we lived there.

00:40:49.620 We lived there in the winter and spring of last year.

00:40:51.880 Nobody was wearing masks outside.

00:40:53.840 And that was, you know, the vaccinations were just coming out.

00:40:56.460 It wasn't like people were 80 percent vaccinated, like in some places where they're still hardcore masking. 0.97

00:41:02.000 And yet everybody knew that wearing masks outside was stupid and they accepted it. 0.93

00:41:07.260 And it wasn't politicized like it is in blue areas. 0.98

00:41:09.460 It wasn't a symbol of my political party like it is in blue areas.

00:41:13.560 It was just something sane that everybody did.

00:41:16.100 You played sports.

00:41:16.960 The kids played sports outside maskless.

00:41:19.060 We came back to New York City.

00:41:20.480 People were kids were still playing sports and masks and continue to do so, you know, through the summer and into the fall.

00:41:26.740 So it's not about the politicians.

00:41:28.880 We can't rely on politicians.

00:41:30.460 We can rely on people being, you know, we hope to rely on the society being sane where we end up.

00:41:38.920 I know that's I mean, like wherever you live, think about it, especially if you've grown up there.

00:41:43.100 And in my case, and it sounds like yours, too, I've grown up in this area.

00:41:46.740 I'm a lifelong New Yorker.

00:41:48.260 My husband is from Philadelphia.

00:41:50.180 Like we don't want to leave the Northeast.

00:41:51.860 I realize people like, well, I don't come.

00:41:53.320 Well, no, we want reason.

00:41:54.720 We want to fight.

00:41:55.340 Like if you can flee and find the perfect place, good for you.

00:41:58.600 But if you cannot fight, fight, there's nothing wrong with staying and fighting.

00:42:02.480 That's what I'm doing.

00:42:03.460 That's what you've been doing.

00:42:05.600 Yeah.

00:42:05.820 Unfortunately, I do think you're right.

00:42:06.920 New York City is not winnable.

00:42:08.840 Right.

00:42:09.160 I agree.

00:42:10.060 And I, you know, something that keeps me up at night are all the people I'll be leaving behind that can't leave and, you know, have things that they can't abandon here.

00:42:19.460 And it's it's it's really easy for the random Twitter commenter to commenter to say, you know, just move, just move.

00:42:24.880 But a lot of people can't.

00:42:26.160 And I like to point out that, you know, while New York is a very blue state, it had more Republican voters and, you know, some of the reddest states because it's quite large.

00:42:35.180 And there's a lot of people here that don't agree with the blue status quo.

00:42:40.420 But because they're in a minority, they just fighting it is nearly impossible.

00:42:44.840 And I hate abandoning those people.

00:42:46.720 I hear from them every week when I write my columns about COVID insanity.

00:42:50.560 I hear from these people like I can't leave.

00:42:52.620 I have, you know, an old, you know, an elderly mother.

00:42:54.980 I have a business that's been in our family for three generations, et cetera.

00:42:58.780 So it's not an easy call.

00:43:00.580 And I get it.

00:43:01.380 And I, you know, hate that I'm leaving those people behind.

00:43:04.940 Meanwhile, there will be questions about the legality of this de Blasio order.

00:43:09.080 Same as we've seen at, you know, the Joe Biden level with OSHA, though, you know, the sad truth is my my instincts tell me de Blasio probably has more power over the city than Joe Biden has over the country.

00:43:19.760 I haven't looked at it legally yet, but I'm concerned that he's got the power.

00:43:24.480 However, I'm a little hopeful that Eric Adams, the incoming mayor, has already kind of he's like, this will be reviewed just as soon as I take office.

00:43:34.240 He seems like a reasonable man. Do you think he'll undo it?

00:43:38.560 You know, I have some hope that he will, but I'd love to hear him say so.

00:43:45.120 I don't know why he wouldn't.

00:43:46.720 De Blasio is uniquely unpopular.

00:43:48.620 If this is not something that New Yorkers want, I think Eric Adams would have an easy call and just say, I'm going to reverse this on day one.

00:43:56.340 But he hasn't said that.

00:43:58.100 So I my enthusiasm about him is very tempered because he has the opportunity to say, I'm going to do something about this.

00:44:06.780 And he hasn't.

00:44:08.340 And it's hard.

00:44:08.900 It's hard to take away a, quote, protection once it's been instituted, you know.

00:44:14.580 And so, yeah, you're right.

00:44:15.940 It's somewhat concerning speaking of not taking away protection.

00:44:19.820 Oregon was in the news late last week and over the weekend for saying we're going to mask indoors indefinitely.

00:44:27.460 Now, there's just no end date.

00:44:29.560 They don't like having an end date of one hundred and eighty days out time after time.

00:44:33.980 Now, Oregonian saying we're just going to mask indefinitely.

00:44:36.920 And even some lifelong, true, deep bluers there are saying that's the hell I'll die on.

00:44:42.780 Your thoughts on it? 0.99

00:44:43.460 So I have a running thread of mask hypocrites, you know, mask hypocrite politicians that I started in August 2020. 0.96

00:44:51.340 So it's a really long thread on Twitter. 0.93

00:44:53.360 And yesterday I updated it with or today I updated it with the governor of Oregon who was, you know, seen indoors without a mask just yesterday.

00:45:01.240 So, you know, if masking is so important and it's so dangerous to be without a mask, why are all these politicians in my thread constantly maskless?

00:45:11.520 Do they not care about their own safety?

00:45:13.460 Are they not worried about what's going to happen to them?

00:45:16.420 I mean, in New York, you know, Governor Hochul, she came into office and she moved masking back to two years old. 0.70

00:45:23.620 It was it was at five when she came in back to two years old.

00:45:28.220 So in the daycares now, masks have to be on two year olds.

00:45:31.760 This is the person who called the Christmas tree the holiday tree.

00:45:34.580 It's gone beyond just happy holidays now.

00:45:36.080 It's now you can't even call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree.

00:45:37.840 It's got to be a holiday tree.

00:45:39.740 She should enjoy her time in office because I predict it's going to be short lived. 0.98

00:45:43.500 Carol, I'm glad you're doing what you feel you need to take care of your family.

00:45:47.040 You're not going to stop writing for the post, right?

00:45:48.500 Oh, no, I'm going to keep going.

00:45:50.960 Good, because we need you.

00:45:52.520 So much, so much fun talking to you.

00:45:54.400 Thank you for being here.

00:45:55.840 Thank you.

00:45:56.300 Coming up, David Leonhardt of The New York Times on Omicron and much, much more.

00:46:03.100 Don't go away.

00:46:09.860 Joining me now is senior writer and author of The Morning Newsletter for The New York Times, David Leonhardt.

00:46:16.720 David's perspective on COVID cuts through the daily alarmism and provides a much needed dose of reality.

00:46:23.740 He is here to talk truth about the new COVID treatments, the latest on Omicron and much, much more.

00:46:29.920 David, thank you so much for being here.

00:46:31.780 Thanks for having me, Megan.

00:46:33.240 All right.

00:46:33.440 So let's kick it off with Mayor de Blasio's announcement this morning.

00:46:36.440 Just left off with Carol Markowitz of The Post talking about it.

00:46:39.080 To me, it seems so odd because what we've learned about Omicron, because he's blaming it on Omicron, saying this is our chance to get ahead of it.

00:46:47.420 We're going to get ahead of it by expanding the vaccine mandate to private businesses and mandating that five to 11 year olds get vaccinated as well.

00:46:54.720 What I see on Omicron so far is it's in at least 38 countries, about a dozen United States in states within the U.S.

00:47:03.100 And the WHO has still not said definitively that even that it's more contagious, never mind that it's more severe or deadly or that it's better at evading the vaccines.

00:47:15.140 So, I mean, do you buy that this is an attempt to get ahead of Omicron?

00:47:22.400 I'll confess, I haven't yet looked at what New York has announced this morning.

00:47:25.560 I've been doing other stuff.

00:47:27.000 But but here's what I'd say about Omicron generally.

00:47:30.260 First of all, I wish I could confidently pronounce it, whether it's Omicron or Omicron.

00:47:34.100 No, it's annoying.

00:47:35.280 I apologize in advance to you and your listeners if I flip back and forth.

00:47:40.600 Mostly, we just don't really know yet.

00:47:42.700 We have a bunch of signals that seem in some cases pretty meaningful.

00:47:50.200 And in other cases, I think there's a huge amount of uncertainty.

00:47:53.100 And so the basics, I would say, are it does appear extremely likely that it spreads more easily and more rapidly than Delta.

00:48:02.860 We don't yet know.

00:48:04.260 Is that because it just spreads more easily and more rapidly between two people who have no protection,

00:48:10.400 meaning they haven't been vaccinated or they haven't previously had COVID?

00:48:14.260 Or is it because it's better at escaping that protection?

00:48:17.440 So we don't really know that.

00:48:18.460 But the overwhelming sign is that it does spread more easily and more rapidly.

00:48:22.200 The other sign, and that's the bad news, the better news is that so far it does not appear to produce more severe illness on average than earlier versions of it.

00:48:35.300 Now, there's uncertainty around that.

00:48:37.040 But as far as we can tell, it does not appear to produce more severe illness based on the information we have so far.

00:48:43.340 As we get more data and more time, that could change.

00:48:45.860 Some people actually think it's milder.

00:48:47.460 The scientists I've talked to have said, eh, I wouldn't put much stock in the possibility that it's milder or the idea that it is.

00:48:53.900 But at least we should think it's probably not more severe.

00:48:57.600 And so you kind of put those things together.

00:48:59.320 And what do they argue for?

00:49:00.760 To me, they do argue for responding in several ways.

00:49:05.000 We do really want to try to slow the spread of this, mostly because we still have a lot of unvaccinated people in the United States who are at enormous risk.

00:49:11.160 And then also even older people who are vaccinated are at some risk, as are people who've had organ transplants and are undergoing cancer treatment.

00:49:20.680 And so I do think some kind of response from politicians is is important and appropriate.

00:49:26.700 What do you make of the mandate that by de Blasio that five to 11 year olds get vaccinated?

00:49:32.040 Because I've I've watched your reporting saying, let's be real, the risk to children in contracting covid is low, very low.

00:49:42.340 Yes. So the risk of getting a covid illness is very low.

00:49:47.200 I find the question of mandating childhood vaccination to be really hard.

00:49:53.180 And I know that that you think it's a bad idea.

00:49:56.340 I know there are other people who think it's a good not to vaccinate them, but to mandate it.

00:49:59.560 I think it should be between a parent and this pediatrician.

00:50:03.400 So I just think it's a really hard question.

00:50:05.560 So let's so as you just said, the the risks of getting serious covid for kids is extremely, extremely low.

00:50:14.200 It looks like covid presents the sort of risk to young kids that the flu does.

00:50:19.600 I think it's actually probably a somewhat lower risk than a typical annual flu,

00:50:24.780 because when you look at the data, the numbers of childhood hospitalizations and deaths are a tiny and be they look similar or maybe slightly lower for covid.

00:50:36.840 And then you remember the fact that actually huge numbers of kids are vaccinated for the flu.

00:50:41.120 Right. And so if anything, we should kind of expect those to cut the other way.

00:50:45.380 We should expect the flu numbers to be less bad, but they're not.

00:50:48.700 So the first thing I would say is if you have a young kid, I would really encourage you.

00:50:54.640 There are no promises here. There's no 100 percent. There are no guarantees.

00:50:58.620 Are there kids who get covid and get really, really sick?

00:51:01.460 There are. But it is extremely, extremely rare.

00:51:06.020 The kind of risk that covid presents to kids is not the kind of risk that we ordinarily organize our daily lives around.

00:51:12.660 We don't we don't shut schools and reorder our entire lives because of the scale of this risk.

00:51:19.000 To put it another way, if you are going to reorder your entire life around the risk that covid presents to a five or six year old,

00:51:28.120 I would say that means you probably should never put your five or six year old in a car.

00:51:32.960 Right. Because it looks like cars present traveling and cars present substantially more risk of serious illness to children than than covid does.

00:51:43.620 And so that is why I understand why some people that combined with the fact that we don't have long term data on what the vaccines do to people is why I understand why some people are hesitant to get their kids vaccinated.

00:51:56.820 I mean, that's why this is a thing. That's why it's a big deal to mandate it.

00:52:00.380 You know, this is the first city I've seen nationwide that's mandated that that age group get the vaccine.

00:52:07.800 We saw the L.A., you know, Unified County School District mandate it, but I haven't yet seen a city in America mandate it.

00:52:13.320 Maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong. But not only is the risk of getting really ill from covid low to children,

00:52:19.340 but what is the risk of contracting long covid to children?

00:52:23.900 Because that's that's one thing that parents do worry about.

00:52:26.280 But again, I don't think they should be mandated to get the vaccine to prevent it.

00:52:29.820 But as I understand it, that, too, is is a relatively low risk.

00:52:34.960 Long covid is a really of all the subjects in covid.

00:52:37.920 There's so much uncertainty about so many different things.

00:52:40.560 And in some ways, this is a silly ranking.

00:52:42.780 There's no need to rank them. But I would rank long covid as the one with the most uncertainty.

00:52:46.940 People don't even agree about what long covid is.

00:52:50.540 And so I think we don't have rates of what long covid looks like.

00:52:56.120 All signs are it is extremely low among children.

00:53:00.860 But but we just don't really know.

00:53:03.620 And I think one of the things to remember about long covid is that and this is really hard for people to, I think, grasp.

00:53:11.120 And at any time, there are a huge percentage of Americans who have unexplained medical symptoms.

00:53:19.920 That's right.

00:53:20.340 Chronic pain, fibromyalgia, fibromyalgia.

00:53:25.000 I mean, I don't I don't I would encourage all your your listeners and viewers to read my friend Ross Douthat's book on his struggle with with long term Lyme disease.

00:53:35.580 I mean, it's just a huge percentage of people out there who have some kind of chronic pain or other things, and they are often unexplained.

00:53:47.000 And so so Ross contracted these unexplained symptoms that have subsequently years later been diagnosed as Lyme disease.

00:53:53.460 But imagine that he had gotten these symptoms this year instead of when he got them, which was 2016, 2015.

00:54:00.360 It would have been absolutely reasonable for him to think that it was a form of long covid.

00:54:05.660 And so so what I would say is long covid is real.

00:54:09.280 The symptoms that people are experiencing, those are really real.

00:54:13.160 But I think what is sometimes happening is or I'm confident this is happening.

00:54:17.460 We are misattributing a substantial amount of the of the unexplained symptoms, which, again, are real, that are always out there to long covid.

00:54:26.600 And I think that has led to some confusion about how common long covid is.

00:54:30.780 Now, I do feel compelled to say we don't know.

00:54:33.520 And to me, the two reasons that it's important to vaccinate kids, we can set aside the mandate question for a second or we can talk about it, whatever you want.

00:54:41.200 But the reason why I would urge anyone who has young kids to vaccinate them are one.

00:54:45.340 There really is uncertainty about the long term effects of covid on your kid.

00:54:50.180 I look at the evidence and I say there is more uncertainty about the long term effects of covid on your kid than there is about the long term.

00:54:58.060 They're all getting covid.

00:54:59.260 They're all getting covid.

00:55:00.640 We're all getting covid, whether we get vaccinated or not. 0.97

00:55:03.520 So to prevent your child from having long term effects of covid is a is fool's gold.

00:55:08.800 I mean, we're all going to get it.

00:55:09.920 Yeah, I think one of the concerns and this I would put in the big category of we don't yet know is it is possible that Omicron evades the immunity from prior infection better than it evades the immunity from vaccines.

00:55:25.120 We don't know.

00:55:26.220 But that's one of the early studies from South Africa suggests might be the case.

00:55:29.280 If that does prove to be the case, that would be a further argument for everyone getting vaccinated.

00:55:35.780 And then the second one is, look, most young kids have grandparents.

00:55:39.140 They have older people around them in their lives.

00:55:41.900 I know, but that's a personal decision.

00:55:43.480 That's that's that's a person, you know, like that's that's for you to decide whether you want to expose your your their nana, your mom to that kind of, you know, risk with the child.

00:55:53.140 That's that's what irritates me is it's like I've seen I've talked before about a mother I know who has a medical note from her doctor saying her kids should not get the vaccine.

00:56:01.180 They have a long history of blood clotting problems in their family.

00:56:03.860 And she presented it to the school and the school said that doesn't qualify.

00:56:08.540 Only if he has a negative reaction to the first shot do we recognize a medical exam.

00:56:12.560 Now, that's insane.

00:56:13.500 That is wrong to deprive a mother who's genuinely concerned.

00:56:16.940 And so is her doctor about the son's well-being enough that they don't want to give this shot to him.

00:56:21.320 You know, it's like she shouldn't be told, well, you've got to protect your nana, you know, like his nana.

00:56:25.180 Like and I realize you're not advocating that.

00:56:26.940 But that's what that's what aggravates me about the vaccines.

00:56:29.120 I mean, I read in your this is from October 12th.

00:56:31.540 This is one of your newsletters.

00:56:32.600 You said the risk of long code amongst children also appears to be very low.

00:56:37.440 All which raises a thorny question.

00:56:39.100 Should young children be vaccinated?

00:56:41.480 I thought this is very honest of you.

00:56:42.660 You wrote I know some readers will recoil at the mention of that question even.

00:56:46.480 But I think it's a mistake to treat it as unmentionable.

00:56:48.560 There is not the scientific consensus about vaccinating children that there is about adults.

00:56:55.260 And and that's why I think, especially with the young ones, we only have a 10 percent vaccination rate so far.

00:56:59.620 Only 10 percent have gotten the first shot that, you know, people, parents don't want to go first on their littles.

00:57:04.440 And even now, I was going to mention it with Carol, but I forgot Finland apparently just they're officially not recommending the vaccine for kids five to 11 who don't have risk factors saying infections in children of this age are usually mild and severe disease is extremely rare.

00:57:21.060 And when the burden of disease is small in one's own group, very few adverse effects are accepted.

00:57:27.900 I mean, I think they mean the adverse effects from the vaccine, you know, those outweigh.

00:57:32.200 Yeah, look, I, you know, I thank you for quoting from that newsletter.

00:57:36.600 I would I would repeat all that.

00:57:38.500 I do think this is a hard question.

00:57:41.200 I also I look at the evidence and I would say that I think the benefits of vaccinating kids outweigh the downsides.

00:57:46.980 I mean, basically, we kind of don't see any evidence of worrisome side effects in the vaccines.

00:57:52.860 Yeah. And and this history has repeated itself. Right.

00:57:55.620 You know, there are a whole bunch of people I've gone back and read the cover.

00:57:58.000 It's fascinating. There are a whole bunch of people who said they would not take the polio vaccine when it came out.

00:58:02.740 If you go back and look at the day one newspaper coverage, there were a group of people in Montgomery County, Maryland, which is now, of course, a deep blue part of the country politically.

00:58:14.400 But historically, it's more part of the South who said we're not going to take the polio vaccine.

00:58:19.880 We're worried about what it will do.

00:58:20.940 This isn't a guarantee, but historically, the concerns about vaccine side effects have not borne out.

00:58:27.140 And so it's a close call.

00:58:28.780 I think it's the myocarditis thing.

00:58:30.040 You know, I mean, I think especially for those of us with sons, you know, we worry about that.

00:58:34.000 If you get any sort of heart history in your family in terms of problems, it's like very, very low risk from COVID.

00:58:40.600 Definitely don't want to do anything.

00:58:41.800 It's going to mess with his heart.

00:58:43.260 Realize you can also get myocarditis from COVID.

00:58:45.900 So it's you know, it's not a great choice for any parent.

00:58:48.620 But but yeah, I mean, that's that's what I've heard a lot of parents worried about myocarditis with children in the vaccine.

00:58:54.780 I mean, I think the risk of serious COVID for kids is so low, right?

00:59:00.700 I think the risk of vaccine side effects is even lower.

00:59:04.180 But I think the risks of serious versions of COVID for kids is so low that I would understand why people wouldn't want to do an uncertain medical intervention.

00:59:13.480 I get that argument. I get it.

00:59:15.620 I do think the harder thing to grapple with is, though, your kid really could make an older person extremely ill by passing on a mild case of COVID.

00:59:24.620 So that's both your kids' grandparents.

00:59:26.780 It's also the teachers at school.

00:59:29.600 It's also your church leaders.

00:59:31.160 Have you heard the people say because we've had doctors talk about how in no other pandemic or health situation have we looked at children as having a responsibility to save the rest of us like that, that they that some would argue that it's medically unethical to ask kids in the single digits to take as what is still an experimental vaccine to protect the elderly.

00:59:55.080 Yep. And, you know, one of the things I try to do in in my journalism, Megan, is admit when I don't know something.

01:00:02.520 And so this is where I'm going to I don't know the history.

01:00:06.640 My sense is that a bunch of the vaccines that we give to kids, it's not just because they cause illness in young children, but it's also that, you know, that whole regimen of shots that we all got polio, mumps, measles, rubella, all of those smallpox, all of those vaccines.

01:00:25.160 That some of that is indeed to protect not just kids, but also adults.

01:00:28.840 But I'm not going to pretend to be a historian of vaccines because I'm not.

01:00:33.460 And you've just given me a good thing that I should go look up and learn more about.

01:00:37.300 What do you make of and then I have I want to talk to you about the treatments that have come out because you've done some interesting writing on the, you know, the new pills, the therapeutics that are coming.

01:00:45.740 But can we just spend one minute on the masking of children?

01:00:49.460 Because, you know, to me, it just drives me nuts.

01:00:52.240 I can't stand seeing the New York City kids inside and outside, constantly masked outside with six feet apart, still masked.

01:00:59.340 It's like never ending.

01:01:02.100 Right.

01:01:03.980 So, I mean, there is you've you've just asked about five important questions in that one question.

01:01:08.280 Right.

01:01:08.740 So just your phrase never ending.

01:01:10.600 That's really important.

01:01:11.440 I think it's vital that we begin, that we set metrics, not begin.

01:01:15.720 We should have them already.

01:01:16.600 There should be metrics.

01:01:17.960 We are going to have the following interventions like masking until this point.

01:01:23.120 Cases fall below a point.

01:01:24.380 And then we're going to stop.

01:01:25.800 We are not starting an era of permanent masking.

01:01:28.140 So I think it's very important to have those.

01:01:30.060 I also think at some point we're layering on seven different interventions in different places.

01:01:36.120 And we're not being honest about the fact that those interventions have costs.

01:01:40.000 So I think vaccines have virtually no cost.

01:01:43.940 I understand not everyone feels that way.

01:01:46.680 But let's talk about distancing.

01:01:48.940 Social distancing has a cost.

01:01:51.420 People cannot interact as well with each other.

01:01:53.760 Masking has a cost.

01:01:55.720 It makes teaching more difficult.

01:01:57.480 Kids don't develop emotional intelligence as rapidly because they're not seeing people's responses.

01:02:02.780 I would point out masking is particularly difficult for young children, for people who are hard of hearing,

01:02:08.400 and for children with learning disabilities.

01:02:10.820 And this notion that you sometimes see people saying, well, I don't have a problem masking,

01:02:15.780 or my kid doesn't have a problem masking.

01:02:18.020 It's been easy peasy for them.

01:02:20.280 That doesn't mean it is for everybody's kids.

01:02:23.020 And masking clearly has downsides.

01:02:25.400 And so, look, I think masking also helps reduce the spread of COVID.

01:02:29.080 It's not anywhere near the level of vaccines.

01:02:31.420 It's a modest effect.

01:02:32.740 But it's not zero.

01:02:34.480 So in a time where we have COVID spreading more rapidly, which is the case now, I don't

01:02:38.220 have any problem with being asked to put a mask on again in a grocery store.

01:02:42.360 It doesn't bother me.

01:02:43.840 But I think we really, because there's basically no cost to my wearing it in a grocery store.

01:02:48.420 There is a cost to asking kids to be wearing masks in school, and particularly young kids.

01:02:53.360 And as a society, I don't think we are grappling enough with the costs of that.

01:02:58.220 And maybe this is a moment where we should be moving towards somewhat more masking, even

01:03:02.040 in schools.

01:03:02.680 But I think the baseline of where we are, the notion of universal, indefinite masking of

01:03:08.360 young children often has more harm than it does benefit.

01:03:14.780 I would say, for whatever it's worth, I don't feel the same.

01:03:18.800 I feel that we should all be able to take off our masks now.

01:03:22.060 I feel that we're at the endemic phase of this thing, that we're going to get variant after

01:03:26.980 variant.

01:03:27.380 Some people are going to sound these alarms, and it's always going to be, it's super spreadable

01:03:31.660 right now, or it's less spreadable.

01:03:33.300 And they're going to say, put your mask back on.

01:03:34.560 And I don't want to live like that.

01:03:36.020 I want to decide for myself whether I cover my face, my children's faces.

01:03:40.680 And people who want to protect themselves should do so via the vaccine or via these new

01:03:45.480 therapeutics, or they can do social distancing.

01:03:48.300 But I will say, I think we're now at the point where it's unreasonable to tell the rest

01:03:53.160 of us that we have to live a certain way, or we have to do a certain thing.

01:03:56.100 Um, I just, we did our part.

01:03:58.580 It's been 18 months.

01:03:59.740 We're Americans.

01:04:00.220 We have freedom in our spirits.

01:04:01.860 We're not built this way.

01:04:03.020 That's just my two cents on it.

01:04:04.980 Look, I totally get that.

01:04:06.460 If I, sadly, I can't design a political compromise for America.

01:04:10.320 Um, if I could, it would be, um, Republicans get vaccinated because the percentage of Republican

01:04:16.620 voters who are still not vaccinating is really, really horrifically high.

01:04:20.740 And that's why deaths are much higher.

01:04:22.520 And they're, and they're dying.

01:04:23.640 You see that every day.

01:04:24.540 And they're dying, right?

01:04:25.240 So if I could design the compromise, it would basically be Republicans get vaccinated, um,

01:04:30.380 and Democrats, um, let people not wear masks if they don't want to wear them.

01:04:34.080 I think what's hard, what's hard about this is because so many Americans are not vaccinated,

01:04:39.620 it actually makes the benefits of masks higher than they would be.

01:04:43.760 Again, they're modest, but they're not zero.

01:04:45.520 It makes the benefits of masks higher than they would be if everyone were vaccinated right

01:04:49.600 now.

01:04:49.760 But look, I get why people are sick of masks.

01:04:52.260 I do think we're doing too much masking in certain settings like schools.

01:04:56.420 Um, I do think we have exaggerated.

01:04:58.120 Some places have exaggerated.

01:04:59.500 Other places have understated, exaggerated the impact of masks.

01:05:02.800 Couldn't we do away with the masks and increase testing and increase at home private testing

01:05:08.980 to make things easier for people?

01:05:10.900 You know, it's, and by the way, increase the therapeutics and so on.

01:05:14.140 Um, I just don't think masks are necessarily the answer.

01:05:17.760 And I just think they're so intrusive.

01:05:20.400 They're so intrusive.

01:05:21.680 I mean, not, I realize not to everybody, but to those of us who hate them, we loathe them.

01:05:27.600 Loathe.

01:05:27.800 I would 100% avoid any grocery store that told me at this point I had to put it on.

01:05:32.000 Just don't, I'm not one of those people who won't do it.

01:05:34.580 I haven't yet become civilly disobedient, but I'm toying with it.

01:05:37.960 I'm toying with it, David.

01:05:39.540 My kids are like, what?

01:05:40.580 It's your show, but can I ask you one question?

01:05:42.180 What is it, either you personally or the people you talk to, what is it that you think, not

01:05:47.180 the political symbolism of it, but the actual experience of masking that is worse and worst

01:05:52.940 and sort of most interfering?

01:05:54.620 Well, I'll give you one.

01:05:55.380 I'll give you one.

01:05:55.820 When I'm not on the air, I usually wear glasses.

01:05:58.100 I'm, I'm, I don't have very good eyesight and I have dry eye.

01:06:00.900 So my dry eye doctor said, wear your contacts as little as possible.

01:06:03.720 So I wear my glasses and they fog up all the time.

01:06:05.960 It's annoying and I don't want to have to deal with it.

01:06:07.760 And, um, I stayed out of the sun for 30 years so that I could have relatively decent skin

01:06:12.440 by the time I was 51 and I have it and I don't feel the need to hide it behind a disgusting

01:06:15.700 mask that can cause outbreaks, right?

01:06:18.220 You can get acne.

01:06:19.420 It's annoying, right? 0.99

01:06:20.500 It's like my skin looks better without that damn mask on and, um, I don't want to hide 0.99

01:06:24.900 behind it. 0.99

01:06:25.960 Um, I also just find it annoying.

01:06:27.760 It hurts the back of my ears after a while.

01:06:29.260 I don't like that.

01:06:30.020 And I really hate seeing it on my kids and I could spend an hour telling you about what

01:06:33.900 I hate with it on my kids.

01:06:36.100 Another thing I hate about it is I feel like it is wearing a democratic virtue signal.

01:06:41.300 You know what I mean?

01:06:41.900 In the same way that the maskers in New York city on the Upper West Side by me, all their 1.00

01:06:46.000 masks would read vote, right?

01:06:47.260 Cause they want to vote Trump out of office.

01:06:48.860 That's fine.

01:06:49.300 I, you know, you can do your thing.

01:06:50.620 But to me, it is, it has morphed into a political symbol.

01:06:54.940 Um, and one that I don't support, you know, I'm not a Democrat and I'm not a Republican

01:06:58.600 either.

01:06:58.880 I'm a registered independent, but I just, I almost feel like I have Joe Biden's hand

01:07:03.020 over my mouth.

01:07:03.860 You know, like it's, it's something I don't want.

01:07:06.460 He's making me have it or de Blasio is making me have it.

01:07:09.860 Ned Lamont, in my case, now that I've moved to Connecticut and I resent them and I don't

01:07:14.100 think they're, you know, so it's like, it's, it is bigger.

01:07:16.420 It's not like a political, like, I don't want to say I'm Republican cause I'm not, but

01:07:20.400 I do want to say, get your, get your hand off my face. 1.00

01:07:23.380 I did what you wanted me to do for almost two years.

01:07:26.740 And now I want to move on.

01:07:29.220 I can't, you can't guilt me forever with a do your part.

01:07:33.200 I did.

01:07:34.320 And so did America. 0.68

01:07:35.220 They gave up their businesses. 0.99

01:07:36.600 Their kids didn't go to school for a damn year. 0.99

01:07:38.720 People have died, blah, blah, blah. 0.99

01:07:39.880 People have been through it.

01:07:41.200 And I just now think we're at the point where you have to release them, release the American 1.00

01:07:46.740 public to do as they see fit and take the precautions that they find reasonable.

01:07:52.800 Yeah.

01:07:53.420 I mean, I think that I see all that.

01:07:55.520 I think, I mean, I, I think I find it tragic that masks or any of these public health interventions

01:08:01.020 have become partisan signs.

01:08:02.420 I mean, the, the, the, to me, the best thing that we can try to do is in our polarized, in

01:08:09.880 our polarized country, one of the things that I have tried to do, um, is say to Democrats,

01:08:16.880 registered Democrats and, and Democratic voters and, and anti-Trump Republicans, right?

01:08:21.180 Hey, you know what?

01:08:22.000 I think that, um, masks probably matter less than you think they do.

01:08:26.080 Um, and they also have bigger costs, um, than, than you're acknowledging, even if they

01:08:31.720 don't for you personally.

01:08:32.880 And I think the flip side of that is, I think it's important for people who have the ear

01:08:37.140 of Republican listeners and Republican voters and, and people who lean Republican and Trump

01:08:41.820 supporters who aren't Republican to, to try to emphasize just how valuable vaccines

01:08:47.360 are, particularly for any adult.

01:08:49.640 They really can't see.

01:08:50.460 I agree with you.

01:08:50.620 I a hundred percent agree with you.

01:08:52.480 And it, and by the way, it's a deal because I think I probably have more access to a right

01:08:55.880 leaning audience than you do.

01:08:57.020 And you have more access to a left leaning audience than I do.

01:08:59.420 So we are going to solve the world's problems by 2 PM Eastern.

01:09:03.300 All right.

01:09:03.880 Stand by David.

01:09:05.060 Um, cause there's so much more to talk about with him.

01:09:07.220 He's, he's, I mean, in it, this guy has done his homework.

01:09:15.120 Okay, David.

01:09:15.720 So let's talk treatments.

01:09:16.800 I saw you put out just some information on treatments and I thought it was a little bit

01:09:20.620 interesting.

01:09:21.100 So we've got two treatments coming and you made the observation that you think that

01:09:25.960 they will be quite helpful medically.

01:09:28.040 Yes.

01:09:28.620 But also psychologically.

01:09:30.000 Can you expand on that?

01:09:31.460 Yeah.

01:09:31.680 So, I mean, as we were just talking about there, there are populations of people for whom

01:09:35.960 the risks from COVID are already extremely low.

01:09:38.900 So I would basically say, um, anyone, all kids, um, and, um, 50 is an arbitrary, um, line 0.94

01:09:47.820 to draw.

01:09:48.900 Um, but I would say roughly if you are vaccinated, fully vaccinated, um, then you're under 50.

01:09:55.120 COVID presents really a tiny risk for you.

01:09:57.800 There are a bunch of places, Utah, um, Minnesota, uh, the County that includes Seattle that put out

01:10:04.000 detailed statistics by vaccination status.

01:10:06.160 And in some of these places for people under 50, the death rate from COVID, if you're vaccinated

01:10:11.300 under 50 is so low that they either don't report it or they report it as zero.

01:10:15.680 Um, so in sort of in those groups where the risks are already so low that, that really

01:10:22.500 it doesn't make sense for these people to organize their lives around COVID for their

01:10:26.140 own sake.

01:10:26.660 I do think they need to protect their parents and stuff like that, but many people still

01:10:30.580 are organizing their lives around COVID despite this really minuscule risk that it presents

01:10:35.780 them.

01:10:36.320 I think the treatments for people in that category have the potential to have this psychological

01:10:41.580 benefit.

01:10:42.120 It's like, wait a second, even if I get COVID.

01:10:44.520 And even if I get sick, the risks of which are tiny, there is this backstop.

01:10:49.440 And so the biggest value of these treatments is the fact that they're going to save the

01:10:52.920 lives of people who so far haven't taken the vaccines and thus are vulnerable.

01:10:56.380 And they're going to save the lives of some people who have taken the vaccines, but are

01:10:59.720 medically really vulnerable because they're 85 years old or they are undergoing cancer treatment.

01:11:05.100 But the secondary benefit is this psychological benefit that will allow us to move more into

01:11:10.480 a world where COVID is just another respiratory illness, not one that is completely dominating

01:11:15.920 day to day life.

01:11:17.700 When when like, where are we in in those treatments and their release at once from Merck, once from

01:11:24.080 Pfizer.

01:11:25.040 And also, I read that they may not do much good for people who'd been vaccinated, that

01:11:30.780 this was a preventative, you know, of death for people who chose to forego the vaccine.

01:11:38.060 Yeah.

01:11:38.340 So they I think the overwhelming likelihood is that they will do good for people who are

01:11:42.340 vaccinated.

01:11:43.540 But the but the tests so far, the research trials have only been on people who were unvaccinated.

01:11:49.980 OK, and so that's all we know for certain.

01:11:53.880 But if you talk to the scientists who are involved in this, the research trials are ongoing with

01:11:58.360 people who are vaccinated.

01:12:00.580 Now, the odds of getting severe COVID if you are younger and vaccinated are so tiny that

01:12:07.820 it's going to be statistically hard to notice that effect.

01:12:10.580 But for people in their 80s and 90s and 70s, my guess is that we can notice the effect.

01:12:15.880 Your other question was about kind of timing.

01:12:17.400 Um, Merck basically is teed up to be approved.

01:12:20.680 I mean, our approval process for for drugs is really torturous, involving multiple agencies.

01:12:26.300 Um, so it always feels like it's just about to happen.

01:12:28.860 But it really does seem like it's about to happen.

01:12:31.200 Um, now Merck reduces hospitalization or death by about 30%.

01:12:35.120 That's not nothing.

01:12:36.420 Um, uh, Pfizer, based on early studies, reduces it by closer to 90%.

01:12:41.740 Wow.

01:12:42.180 Um, uh, Pfizer, we think, uh, could become available to people early.

01:12:47.400 Next year in the first couple of months.

01:12:49.340 Okay.

01:12:49.900 Interesting news today on boosters.

01:12:52.720 This is according to your paper.

01:12:54.980 Um, they're reporting on a study that, that, okay, let's say you've had the double Pfizer

01:12:59.660 vax, which actually is what I have had.

01:13:02.140 Me too.

01:13:02.720 And yeah, and you're looking at a booster, uh, they're saying in this study, they took

01:13:07.920 people who had the double Pfizer's and they gave half of them.

01:13:10.840 It was done by Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston.

01:13:13.300 They studied 65 people and, uh, six months after the second vax, second dose, they gave

01:13:18.480 24 of those people, a third dose of Pfizer, 41 of those people, the Johnson and Johnson.

01:13:24.260 The paper points out the study was funded in part by Johnson and Johnson hasn't yet been

01:13:28.780 published in a scientific journal, but good enough that the times is reporting on it.

01:13:33.160 Both groups saw, and both, both vaccines, both boosters boosted the number of T cells,

01:13:39.080 which are important for longer lasting protection and for preventing infections from turning into

01:13:44.240 severe disease.

01:13:45.140 But the T cell increase from J and J was two times as high as Pfizer.

01:13:49.520 The second thing you want from your booster is to increase the antibodies you have.

01:13:54.580 Pfizer did better on that.

01:13:55.860 That if you got a, your booster from Pfizer, you did better.

01:13:58.220 Four weeks after the booster, both sets had strong protection, but Pfizer's, when it comes

01:14:02.900 to antibody testing was about 50% higher than J and J's though, again, both were strong.

01:14:08.100 So if that pans out, it does get peer reviewed and all the fun stuff, you know, pans out.

01:14:12.820 Um, I don't, have you done enough research to tell me whether T cells increasing is more

01:14:18.180 important than antibodies increasing?

01:14:22.420 I've done enough research to tell you that I don't think anybody knows yet.

01:14:27.060 So I, I did, don't think it's clear.

01:14:29.620 Um, uh, I would say that there are some, I think logic is actually an underused tool in,

01:14:37.000 in all kinds of realms, um, including public health.

01:14:39.660 And there are, you, you want to be careful about overusing logic, but there are some logical

01:14:44.660 reasons to think why a mix and match approach with vaccines might be more effective.

01:14:49.640 Um, it's sort of similar to the diversification approach of investing that if you sort of go

01:14:55.900 at a problem, just one way, right, that there are diminishing returns.

01:14:59.800 If you just keep doing that same approach, whereas if you go at a problem, a new way,

01:15:04.100 um, you might, for example, attack the disease in ways that for whatever reason in my body or

01:15:10.400 someone else's body, the first vaccine didn't work.

01:15:13.040 And so there really are both logical reasons and empirical reasons.

01:15:16.620 When you look at some of the results from Europe and other places to think that the mix and

01:15:20.960 match approach could might be, we're not sure might be at least as good or better.

01:15:26.240 And so my view of this is if you've had the, if you've had one Johnson and Johnson shot,

01:15:30.880 um, you should almost certainly get a booster from another one.

01:15:34.880 Um, if you've had a Pfizer or Moderna, um, I think it's reasonable to kind of go anyway.

01:15:40.800 I don't think the research clearly points to which way to go, but I understand why,

01:15:46.620 if people are given a choice, they might choose to vary and get Johnson and Johnson or one

01:15:51.340 of the other ones.

01:15:52.180 If they got from, from the first one.

01:15:54.220 It's fascinating.

01:15:55.260 Um, okay.

01:15:55.880 Well, I haven't gotten the booster, but open-minded and we'll see.

01:15:58.560 I don't know if I need it.

01:15:59.360 I don't know.

01:15:59.720 Whatever.

01:16:00.160 There's a whole, that's a whole other debate.

01:16:01.660 Let me talk to you about this.

01:16:02.660 Cause you asked a question recently that I think a lot of us want the answer to and seem

01:16:06.840 to genuinely be grappling with it.

01:16:08.300 And that was, how does this end?

01:16:11.600 How does this end?

01:16:15.140 And you were talking about a doctor who, a COVID expert who you regularly speak with,

01:16:19.680 Dr. Robert Wachter, Wachter, um, Wachter.

01:16:23.560 And you, you said, even though he's been one of the more cautious guys, he thinks increasingly

01:16:30.360 the answer is it ends now.

01:16:32.980 It ends now.

01:16:33.560 So what, what does that mean?

01:16:35.560 What does that look like?

01:16:37.260 So first of all, I would say that Bob Wachter is the, uh, senior doctor at university of

01:16:42.600 California, San Francisco.

01:16:43.760 He would definitely say that we should have our behavior affected by what's going on in

01:16:48.800 the world.

01:16:49.060 So that if cases are going up or they're higher as they are now, we should react with more

01:16:52.840 caution.

01:16:53.280 So I just want to say that to give full airing of his view.

01:16:56.440 I think the thing that's important, and this, this covers some ground we did before,

01:17:00.020 so I'll make it quick, but these COVID precautions have costs.

01:17:04.400 They have costs in terms of social isolation.

01:17:07.140 We have seen drug overdoses go up.

01:17:09.500 We have seen measures of how much kids are learning go down.

01:17:12.920 We have seen measures of kids' mental health go down.

01:17:16.180 Um, there are real costs to this isolation, to, to it being harder to communicate.

01:17:21.520 Human beings are social creatures.

01:17:22.860 The idea that, um, we're doing this much less often, um, the idea that I'm sitting in

01:17:28.080 my house, uh, doing this interview, uh, maybe I always would have, but the fact is I'm not

01:17:33.180 someplace interacting with your colleagues on this show.

01:17:36.100 I'm not having these kinds of normal human interactions with people.

01:17:39.280 Um, and all of this decline in human interactions really, really has downsides.

01:17:43.920 And I think it's important to say, A, we're never going to get to COVID zero.

01:17:47.820 We have to learn to live with COVID as an endemic virus, um, and saying we're never going to

01:17:53.000 get to COVID zero means we're probably never going to get to zero deaths either.

01:17:56.620 Um, uh, I mean, we have in a typical year, 35,000 deaths each year from the flu.

01:18:01.000 Um, uh, and, and B, it means we need to figure out ways to get back to something that looks

01:18:08.060 more like normal.

01:18:09.560 And I don't know exactly how that happens.

01:18:12.160 I'm more comfortable with the idea that we take more precautions when cases are rising and

01:18:16.140 fewer when they're falling.

01:18:17.080 But right now, and I know this is something you've emphasized, it feels like too often

01:18:22.240 we're imagining we're in some sort of permanent COVID world in which school will never be normal

01:18:27.400 again.

01:18:27.840 And I think that will have terrible costs for our society.

01:18:32.320 As the mother of three kids, um, eight, 10, and 12, I do worry because my husband and I

01:18:36.940 have done, I think a good job of keeping anxiety very low, very low for them when it comes.

01:18:44.100 And I mean, frankly, for ourselves too, but when it comes to this disease, understanding

01:18:47.380 exactly who it affects and it's generally not young children.

01:18:50.480 Um, and it's generally not people like us who are, well, are over 50, but just barely

01:18:54.260 David.

01:18:54.800 Just, I mean, it's like very tight.

01:18:56.960 I feel like I'm still in the good group.

01:18:59.200 Um, and yet the longer this goes on, the less persuasive we can be on this, you know, like 0.99

01:19:05.420 the longer they have those damn masks on their face all day and they've constantly got to 0.97

01:19:09.460 get tested and swabbed at school with the Q-tip up the nose and can't get near one another 0.99

01:19:14.340 and have to eat lunch through plexiglass, you know, looking at their, their friends,

01:19:18.300 they have to lean back to talk to one another because they can't hear each other through

01:19:21.080 the plexiglass still and go outside.

01:19:23.740 I've told the story of my show, but you know, my, my older kid was outside.

01:19:27.800 They have a huge property.

01:19:29.360 I'm in Connecticut now.

01:19:30.120 I'm no longer in New York.

01:19:31.020 They could spread the kids out.

01:19:32.620 Each kid could have his own 20 yards between he and his friends.

01:19:36.160 No, still had them wear masks while they were doing squat thrust and pushups and situps. 0.89

01:19:40.340 So I complained.

01:19:41.380 And, um, but the longer they keep doing that, the harder it is for us to maintain.

01:19:47.620 This is just kind of like, this stuff is not really that necessary for you, but we're going

01:19:51.200 to go along.

01:19:51.780 We're going to do our duty.

01:19:52.560 We're going to support our fellow citizens.

01:19:54.100 It's like, it's getting to the point where I'm, I'm like, you're going to rip off the

01:19:57.800 mask.

01:19:58.120 You're going to go in there and you're going to hold up a sign that says free my face.

01:20:02.180 You know, like my kids are like, what, but it just, it needs to end because

01:20:08.160 that anxiety is going to be contagious.

01:20:12.500 I've done my level best to prevent it, but it's coming.

01:20:15.260 It's coming for the littles.

01:20:17.220 Yeah, no.

01:20:17.580 And in some ways it's already here.

01:20:18.900 All right.

01:20:19.240 And so I also think one of the problems with not setting metrics is it makes it harder to

01:20:26.100 even turn things up.

01:20:27.980 Right.

01:20:28.500 So I think there are a lot of settings in which kids do not need to have been masked.

01:20:33.420 I think the data suggests kids do not need to have been masked for much of the past

01:20:37.220 months.

01:20:39.140 I would argue that actually there's a greater argument for having more masks in school right

01:20:44.020 now when cases are rising and Omicron is coming and we don't know exactly how bad it

01:20:48.300 is than there has been for most of the last year.

01:20:50.880 But the thing is when it becomes permanent, right?

01:20:53.620 When you're always, when you're always telling kids they need to bear the burden of this, I

01:20:58.140 actually think it makes it harder to win over people to, Hey, you know what?

01:21:02.400 We need to, we need to kind of make a real push here and do things that we're not already

01:21:06.040 doing because when you have kids who are outside in masks and distant, which is just more precautions

01:21:13.760 than the science supports by any reading of the science, it then becomes really difficult

01:21:18.400 to say to people, Hey, actually now we need to take it more seriously because if you're

01:21:22.160 already well beyond what is actually justifiable from a public health perspective, it makes it

01:21:27.280 harder to persuade people to make a push in a moment where actually maybe we should be

01:21:30.800 making a push.

01:21:31.800 Mm hmm.

01:21:32.800 You, you write that there's not going to be a day where we declare the victory over

01:21:38.520 COVID.

01:21:39.520 Right.

01:21:40.520 There isn't like, we're just going to have to get used to the fact Jennifer Nuzzo, who's 0.95

01:21:45.240 an epidemiologist at Johns Hopkins has been one of the best voices through this.

01:21:48.520 You know, she says people at a certain point, they're just going to care less.

01:21:52.520 Um, and that's kind of an inconvenient truth, but I do think, um, uh, I do think that's what

01:21:57.800 we're going to get to.

01:21:59.200 Um, I would really like to see us have a population that is much more vaccinated than the one we

01:22:04.180 have.

01:22:04.420 Um, I would really like to see us have rapid tests, much, much more available.

01:22:08.780 That is a combined failing of the Trump administration.

01:22:11.460 And while the Biden administration has made progress, it has been excruciatingly slow.

01:22:16.240 It's progress on rapid tests.

01:22:17.520 So in a world in which we have, um, nearly all adults vaccinated in a world in which we

01:22:22.500 have rapid tests as available as they are in parts of Europe, everything else, all the

01:22:27.380 other interventions, masking, distancing, all this stuff can really recede into the background.

01:22:32.960 And basically through a combination of vaccination and tests, we can live a life that looks almost

01:22:38.640 entirely like normal.

01:22:40.400 All right.

01:22:40.500 Here's my question for you.

01:22:41.480 Since you are now, I mean, I only recently left New York, but I've said many times, all

01:22:46.580 my friends are liberals and, and, you know, Democrats, but I would say if you're far left,

01:22:51.760 you're probably not attracted to me, um, as a friend, cause I, I, I'm a little bit more

01:22:57.120 right.

01:22:57.480 That's fine.

01:22:58.460 But I would imagine you're, you're pretty much immersed in left and far left in New York

01:23:02.900 and working at the times.

01:23:03.720 And so I have to ask you to reassure me, are, are, is the left going to come along with

01:23:09.480 that plan?

01:23:10.000 You know, like, I, are they going to reject, you know, the, the COVID forgive the term fear

01:23:16.240 porn and just, do they want to get back to normal?

01:23:19.640 Because to me, it seems almost impossible to like pull them on that tug of war, like come

01:23:24.340 over a little bit more toward this middle place that looks closer to 2020 pre-March.

01:23:32.020 I don't know.

01:23:34.340 I really don't know.

01:23:35.840 Um, I think we live in, uh, an extremely polarized society.

01:23:40.560 We live in a society with widespread distrust of institutions.

01:23:44.720 I mean, you look at the polling on what people think about the government and the media and

01:23:49.160 organized religion and big business and labor unions.

01:23:52.380 It's all tanked over the last 40 or 50 years, right?

01:23:55.340 And the left likes to emphasize one part of those statistics and the right likes to emphasize

01:23:58.820 another, but it's basically all gone way down.

01:24:00.880 People still have a high degree of trust in the military.

01:24:04.660 Um, uh, and so in a society that's highly polarized, uh, with large levels of distrust,

01:24:10.700 I think, um, you can basically have lots of irrationality persist for large periods of

01:24:17.580 time.

01:24:17.880 And I think the most harmful version of it has been on the right.

01:24:22.100 We've got huge numbers of people refusing to take the vaccines, um, and causing a lot of

01:24:26.440 unnecessary death and also prolonging the pandemic for everybody else.

01:24:29.980 And on the left, you've got a lot of people who really are having a hard time looking at

01:24:35.760 the numbers in a sober way and understanding that for large numbers of people, the risks

01:24:41.100 are extremely low, not for everyone, but for large numbers of people, the risks are still

01:24:45.060 extremely low.

01:24:45.900 And that a whole bunch of these precautions have costs to our society and to our kids.

01:24:51.380 The one thing that I wonder about, and I know conservatives are very eager to predict this.

01:24:56.680 Um, uh, but I do wonder whether there's a point at which Democrats are going to start to worry

01:25:01.500 that there are political costs for them.

01:25:03.600 There is to me a, an intriguing argument that part of the reason that Democrats did so surprisingly

01:25:09.740 poorly, not only in Virginia, but also in New Jersey is people's anger about, um, schools in

01:25:16.100 particular and the way in which normality has not, um, returned in general.

01:25:21.260 And I think if there is, starts to be kind of electoral panic among people on the left, um,

01:25:27.460 I do think that could potentially cause a different dynamic in this area.

01:25:31.820 Mm-hmm.

01:25:32.620 What do you make of, you know, I know you, you think the right is mostly to blame for the,

01:25:37.360 you know, less than perfect vaccination rates.

01:25:40.960 Um, I, I, I look back and I think the whole thing was politicized from the start.

01:25:47.040 You know, the, the press and the left saw a chance to hurt Trump with COVID, you know,

01:25:53.020 that he was rolling along to reelection because the economy was booming.

01:25:56.420 Most of the polls had him sailing through to a second term.

01:25:59.300 And this was a chance to hurt him, you know, and it, and, and it was, I think, used in a

01:26:06.220 way, um, by, by plenty of Democrats and press, um, to try to get to him and certainly by Joe

01:26:12.260 Biden.

01:26:12.520 Um, and then you had people like Biden, like Andrew Cuomo, like Harris undermining faith in

01:26:18.020 the vaccines, which were developed under Trump, you know, so I don't think all the vaccine

01:26:22.420 hesitancy can be put at the, at the feet of those Republicans who kind of held on to the messaging

01:26:27.940 that Biden and Harris and Cuomo were, were delivering early on, you know, they were skeptical

01:26:32.780 then and they remain skeptical.

01:26:34.860 Um, I don't know if they were actually skeptical or not to tell you the truth, but they certainly

01:26:38.700 said publicly they were when Trump was the president.

01:26:40.540 So I just, to me, it's like, it goes back to your first point, which is the systems are

01:26:45.140 falling apart because they're losing the faith of the American people.

01:26:48.940 And when I look at like the vaccine hesitant, I look at people who no longer trust the mainstream

01:26:53.340 media, people who thought Mike Pence was going to give Trump the presidency on January 6th.

01:26:59.080 You know, people who still think it's coming Trump's way.

01:27:02.000 Why do they think that they're getting information from unreliable sources?

01:27:05.240 Why are they going there?

01:27:06.100 Well, because they no longer have faith in the mainstream media.

01:27:08.300 Some no longer have faith even on the right in Fox News, right?

01:27:11.180 Because it didn't declare Trump the winner.

01:27:12.920 It like all of it is an, is a never ending cycle downward, downward, downward, downward.

01:27:16.740 To me, it's like a bigger question of how do we pull ourselves out from the depths of

01:27:20.360 that despair on so many fronts, right?

01:27:22.680 Not just like going to Republicans and saying, take the vaccine or for that matter, you know,

01:27:27.120 black Americans who have been more vaccine hesitant and so on.

01:27:31.000 So I don't know how we solve that, but I do think it's unfair to just sort of say the

01:27:35.340 Republicans have been too reticent on vaccines because it's a long and complicated story.

01:27:39.760 It is a long and complicated story.

01:27:41.660 And I certainly wouldn't say all the blame is on one side.

01:27:45.180 I guess my general view is people are responsible for their own actions.

01:27:48.420 And, you know, there are people on the left today who say, well, the reason I insist on wearing

01:27:52.960 a mask even more than the data may support is that people on the right were so anti-mask

01:27:59.020 that it pushed me into this.

01:28:01.200 And my opinion is, no, no, no, you're responsible for your own actions.

01:28:04.240 If you're wearing masks in situations where you don't even need them, that's on you.

01:28:08.300 And to me, the flip side of that is if you look around, yeah, maybe it was a little complicated

01:28:13.180 at first, but Trump never fully embraced the vaccines.

01:28:17.060 And if you look around today, basically you have one Democratic politician after another

01:28:20.600 saying, please take the vaccines, please take the vaccine.

01:28:24.200 And then among Republican politicians, you kind of have this, they're trying to play cutesy.

01:28:28.720 They won't always admit that they've taken it personally.

01:28:31.800 They raise lots of, I'm just asking questions about it.

01:28:34.400 Well, I mean, you guys like DeSantis, he's saying openly take it.

01:28:37.120 I mean, like he's one of the most popular Republicans saying take it, you know, but he doesn't like

01:28:41.080 mandates.

01:28:42.040 Republicans in general don't like mandates.

01:28:43.740 In general, they want the government out of your business, not in it.

01:28:46.760 Yeah, I guess.

01:28:47.240 I guess you made a list of politicians raising questions about vaccines.

01:28:50.000 It would not include every Republican, but the list would be almost totally Republican.

01:28:54.120 I agree with that.

01:28:54.840 And so I guess my view is they're sort of responsible.

01:28:58.800 Again, if we went back to the election, you'd see Biden and Harris and all these others,

01:29:02.120 right?

01:29:02.260 But now they're like, no.

01:29:04.040 Anyway, I get your point.

01:29:06.020 I just feel like to me, it's just so such a bummer, right?

01:29:08.800 Because I don't see it going in a good direction.

01:29:12.300 I don't know.

01:29:12.720 I thought maybe I didn't believe Biden's promise of unity, but I thought maybe the country will

01:29:18.020 be a little bit less heated with Trump out of the office.

01:29:21.940 You know, maybe we can find our way back to each other.

01:29:23.880 So far, I've seen no progress.

01:29:25.240 I think you and I have done better than the country has in this past hour.

01:29:29.980 First of all, I appreciate that.

01:29:31.480 Yeah.

01:29:31.680 No, secondly, I mean, I think at this point, sadly, our polarization, we have not yet met

01:29:36.080 a politician who can cure us of our polarization, right?

01:29:39.020 I mean, I think that whatever you may think of them, forever, all their differences, both

01:29:43.820 George W. Bush and Barack Obama have enormous talents, and they both basically won the presidency

01:29:49.680 vowing to do just that.

01:29:52.120 Neither of them did.

01:29:53.880 Donald Trump did not, and he definitely didn't.

01:29:55.740 But Biden, sort of similar to Bush and Obama, kind of had these instincts.

01:29:59.300 And I really worry about so much of really the future of this country.

01:30:04.300 I think the world's a better place when the United States is the most powerful country

01:30:07.360 in the world, and if we are this divided on basic questions, I kind of worry about the

01:30:13.560 future of American power.

01:30:15.760 I know.

01:30:16.580 I know.

01:30:17.140 I read in your paper every day that it's declining, and it is, but it doesn't have to

01:30:22.120 decline.

01:30:22.620 It's not a done deal.

01:30:23.380 Exactly right.

01:30:24.120 It's worth fighting for.

01:30:25.440 David, such a pleasure.

01:30:26.300 Thank you so much for coming on and for all your great reporting.

01:30:29.280 Well, thanks for having me, and thanks for the nice things you've said about the newsletter.

01:30:31.840 I really appreciate it, Megan.

01:30:32.860 You bet.

01:30:33.620 Well, see, the New York Times is not all bad.

01:30:35.680 I enjoy David.

01:30:36.480 I enjoy the daily.

01:30:39.700 It's important to get a wide variety of inputs in your information gathering, right?

01:30:44.740 So don't let anybody spin you.

01:30:46.280 Take from the left.

01:30:46.940 Take from the right.

01:30:47.520 Make up your own mind, and then go out there and preach.

01:30:50.780 Say how you feel, because this is America, and you're allowed to do that still.

01:30:54.080 Don't forget to tune into the show tomorrow, because we've got Barry Weiss here.

01:30:57.120 Check us out in the meantime on YouTube, and download the show on Apple.

01:30:59.880 Thanks, guys.

01:31:01.700 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:31:03.640 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:31:07.240 moms and all.

01:31:09.820 We'll see you next time.

01:31:10.620 Bye-bye.

01:31:11.580 Bye-bye.

01:31:12.060 Bye-bye.

01:31:12.560 Bye-bye.

01:31:13.140 Bye-bye.

01:31:13.920 Bye-bye.

01:31:15.540 Bye-bye.

01:31:15.880 Bye-bye.

01:31:16.560 Bye-bye.

01:31:17.220 Bye-bye.

01:31:17.460 Bye-bye.

01:31:17.900 Bye-bye.

01:31:19.500 Bye-bye.

01:31:19.540 Bye-bye.

01:31:20.140 Bye-bye.

01:31:21.040 Bye-bye.

01:31:22.000 Bye-bye.

01:31:22.580 Bye-bye.

01:31:23.540 Bye-bye.

01:31:25.120 Bye-bye.

01:31:25.200 Bye-bye.

01:31:26.460 Bye-bye.

01:31:27.080 Bye-bye.

01:31:27.100 Bye-bye.

01:31:27.120 Bye-bye.

01:31:27.380 Bye-bye.

01:31:28.260 Bye-bye.

01:31:29.120 Bye-bye.

01:31:29.220 Bye-bye.

01:31:30.160 Bye-bye.

01:31:31.060 Bye-bye.

01:31:31.160 Bye-bye.

01:31:31.500 Bye-bye.

01:31:33.100 Would-bye.

The Megyn Kelly Show - December 06, 2021

NBA's China Hypocrisy on Human Rights and COVID Reality, with Enes Kanter Freedom and David Leonhardt ｜ Ep. 215

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript