NBA player Enis Kristaps Porzingis joins The Megyn Kelly Show to talk about his transition from Turkish-born to American-born, why he chose the United States, and how he became a citizen. Plus, the latest on vaccines, from vaccines to variants, with David Leonhardt of The New York Times.
00:05:31.440You know, I remember, you know, when I was nine years old, my mom told me that, you know, stand up for the things that you believe and stand up for things for right.
00:05:41.460You know, even if it means pretty much like sacrificing everything you have.
00:05:45.540You know, after that moment, you know, I was just standing up for the right things, everything, every time.
00:05:53.460You know, back in 2013, there was a corruption scandal happening in Turkey and a Turkish president and his family was involved in it.
00:06:02.060And that was the first time I said something because I know what, you know, he started to put people in jail, you know, police, judges and persecutors.
00:06:10.060And I was like, this is just not right.
00:06:11.980And obviously, I said something and because of the platform, it became a big conversation here in the United States and Turkey.
00:06:20.160And I was like, wow, even one word, my one sentence can make this much of an impact.
00:06:26.480So from now on, I'm going to start paying attention about like what's going on around the world more.
00:06:30.660So I started to, you know, study about, you know, Turkey, relationship between Turkey and America, you know, foreign policy and everything.
00:06:39.440And I remember my teammates were going out to eat and hang out and party and stuff.
00:09:35.160Many have, because we're more old school, believing in the First Amendment.
00:09:39.400But as somebody who's got your interesting background and perspective, what do you make of what's happening now with that?
00:09:45.660I mean, I don't know about the situation, but I think, you know, like the First Amendment is the greatest amendment, you know, freedom of speech.
00:09:55.080And obviously, you know, I mean, people should be very blessed because just because of the tweets you put out there or just because of the speeches that you talk, you're not going to be put in jails.
00:10:05.180So I think it is important for people to speak their mind because that is going to bring the change.
00:10:12.540You know, people need to wake up and speak up about, you know, issues are not just happening in America, but all over the world.
00:10:18.600So it is important to use that amendment.
00:11:02.020Is that why this became important to you?
00:11:04.860You know, I remember doing a basketball camp this summer, and I was taking pictures with the kids.
00:11:09.700And one of the parents, right, turned around and said, how can you call yourself a human right activist when your Muslim brothers and sisters are in concentration camps and getting tortured and raped every day?
00:11:32.960And I started to study and research about what's going on.
00:11:36.540And the more I read, the more I was ashamed of myself because I was like, I could not believe the last 10 years.
00:11:42.380I was just blindly was focusing on only one topic, and it was Turkey.
00:11:47.720And I was like, I'm going to do everything I can to just change that, you know.
00:11:51.640And, you know, I started to do research, and the more research I have done, I saw what Tibetans are going through, what Uyghur people are going through, what Hong Kongers are going through, what Taiwanese are going through, what Mongolians are going through.
00:12:07.780And I was like, you know, I don't know how many years that I've been left in the league, but for now I'm going to do everything I can to bring some real change because many people are very, very scared.
00:12:17.760So I was like, you know what, I remember what my mom told me when I was nine years old.
00:12:22.220I'm just going to do what I can to help those people.
00:12:26.300Now, when you did your research, did it bring up the tweet by Houston Rockets GM Daryl Morey, who tweeted support for Hong Kong?
00:12:36.620A tiny little tweet which caused such a major controversy.
00:12:42.100I remember, you know, following that tweet two years ago.
00:12:46.240And, you know, when he put the tweet out there, and obviously after that, after he deleted it, I saw the reaction that the league came.
00:12:54.760I was just very disgusted, very shocked.
00:13:41.480Because I wanted to hear from firsthand what they are going through.
00:13:44.740And I remember going, sitting down with this concentration camp survivor.
00:13:48.100And the things that she was telling me, it was, it was, I just, I don't, I don't know if any human being can hold his tears up, hold their tears up while listening to her.
00:13:59.760She was telling me about how she was getting gang rape every day.
00:16:17.460You know, but obviously, before everything, he is pretty much the face of Nike.
00:16:24.620And Nike is the biggest sponsor of the NBA.
00:16:28.340And to me, the important thing is I want to tell not just him, but all the athletes, you need to educate yourself before you put your signature on a paper and sign these millions of dollars of deals with these companies where they are pretty much modern-day slavery,
00:16:43.940where they're using slave labor and sweatshirts.
00:16:47.460And to me, it was a hypocrisy when an athlete talks about social justice issues.
00:16:55.880But when it comes to Nike or China, they remain in silence.
00:16:59.840So to me, it was very, very hard to see.
00:17:06.620So I was like, I have to say something about it.
00:17:08.540But wait, do you think the problem is that LeBron James doesn't know about China's human rights abuses?
00:17:17.520The thing is, I need to sit down and have a conversation.
00:17:19.520And I hope he does, you know, and I'm sure he does.
00:17:24.460But it's just like, like I said, again, he's not the only one.
00:17:27.460You see, there's so many athletes, you know, out there are making millions of dollars from these companies, which are, they are born to China.
00:17:36.520So I feel like they need to, if they're not educated, they need to sit down with someone and educate them.
00:17:41.880There's no way that LeBron James at this point does not know about the ethnic genocide in China and the forced labor.
00:17:48.520There's just that Nike uses, though it denies it.
00:17:51.820Don't you think the more likely scenario is he just chooses not to make that an issue for himself and that, you know, the checks keep getting cashed and it's just too lucrative a deal?
00:18:20.220So I'm hoping in my heart that he just doesn't know.
00:18:23.780I'm sure he does, but in my heart, I'm just hoping that he doesn't know, you know, because a human being cannot wear their shoes or wear those items and go out there and play when they know that what people are going through pretty much a genocide.
00:18:39.480Because there is so much blood and sweat and oppression on those items.
00:19:07.760I mean, this is, it's unbelievable because first of all, I did see him on the court, but the tunnel thing, I actually stopped to take a picture with a kid.
00:19:16.780And he was one, literally was behind me and walked right past me.
00:19:21.020And I, but actually my assistant coach was with me, but I'm not going to just go back and forth or you did, you saw me.
00:19:27.780I just want to have us literally see, have a sit down and conversation and ask him about like, and how I don't, you know, the important thing is we need to find a way to these athletes to join the right cults.
00:19:41.680You know, because that's when we're going to have the real change, you know, criticizing obviously is important.
00:19:49.000The important thing is how, what, what can I do to make, you know, this, you know, superstars like, you know, Steph, LeBron, Kevin Durant or this, you know, not just the sport athlete, but it's a sports world.
00:20:09.480That's my goal because I do, I do want to sit down and have a conversation with him because once he joins, once other joins, it's going to be even a bigger cause.
00:20:23.040I mean, we're seeing the Women's Tennis Association do it right now.
00:20:25.580The head of the organization say we will not be playing any tournaments in China.
00:20:30.260And that until we find out what happened to missing tennis player Peng Shui and all the nonsense about people having spoken to her, the IOC saying, oh yeah, we've spoken to her.
00:20:39.000No one has reason to believe what they're saying.
00:20:40.880They've covered for China for a long time, IOC.
00:21:28.560And I just wish that, you know, not just them, if the other leagues, other organizations started to join, you know, with tennis association, it's going to bring a real change.
00:22:30.000No, I'm only saying what you see in all my interviews, I'm saying, standing up for human rights, standing up for democracy, standing up for human rights.
00:22:37.920Let's be the voice of innocent people out there, not just in America, but all over the world.
00:22:45.380And so I'm, I'm inviting all these athletes, not just athletes, but you see like hypocrite, you know, actors like John Cena or like many other people out there are just like scared to say something.
00:22:57.400John Cena, what he, what he did was absolutely nuts.
00:23:01.500Um, he spoke out in Taiwan and then he got publicly shamed and then he spent, I mean, he did the most groveling apology about Taiwan and its independence.
00:23:10.340It was pathetic, but you, you walk the walk.
00:23:13.700I mean, I just looking at the people you've made appearances with, not many people can say that they have been invited to and did make public appearances with both Gavin Newsom, Hakeem Jeffries on the one side and Senator Tim Scott and Tom Cotton on the other.
00:23:27.600You're, you've been with ambassador John Bolton and Adam Schiff.
00:23:48.140You know, it is important to put the right people in politics because it can literally change the country's direction.
00:23:54.780So, you know, I, I, when I sit down with so many, you know, politicians, Democrats and Republicans, you know, the first thing that tell them is like, listen, you have a bright future in politics.
00:24:05.240So after your basketball career, please consider it.
00:24:09.160I am actually considering it, you know, after my basketball career, I don't know how long I'm going to be playing in the NBA, but after my sports career, for sure.
00:24:21.860Now, wait, I have to ask you because I did read that, um, that after you express support for Tibet, uh, the Celtics games were pulled from Chinese media.
00:24:31.960So have you gotten any blowback from your team or your fellow players for that?
00:24:38.180You know, my teammates are my biggest supporters.
00:24:41.060They are the one that give me so much hope and motivation to fight for what's right.
00:24:44.900It was disgusting to see, you know, just because if I put a free Tibet on my feet and went out there to play, my manager texted me at halftime.
00:24:53.860I said, listen, man, all Celtics games in China are banned.
00:25:15.860Given what happened to Daryl Morey again, who just sent out a little tweet about Hong Kong and then everyone rained down on him in the NBA.
00:25:22.860I'll tell you, I'll tell you this story.
00:25:24.320Not many people knows about, like, I remember wearing those shoes right before the game.
00:25:28.000There's two gentlemen came from the NBA and said, take those shoes off.
00:26:09.000Literally right before the game, while I was on a bench.
00:26:11.340So not your team, not your team officials, but NBA officials.
00:26:15.680They, you know, they told me to, obviously they wanted to take me to locker room to take my shoes off.
00:26:20.520And then after that, I told them, no, I'm not going to take my shoes off.
00:26:23.520And in halftime, they came and apologized.
00:26:26.320I was like, because I told them a lot, I'm not going to take my shoes off.
00:26:29.560And I, you know, I had a conversation with Adam Silver and I asked Adam, he's like, Adam, listen, you know, I've been getting so much like blowback and so much pressure from the league.
00:28:07.800Just a few hours ago, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio pulled a Bill de Blasio announcing a new COVID-19 vaccine mandate for all private businesses in the city, catching many of said businesses and citizens off guard.
00:28:24.940It takes effect just days before he's leaving office.
00:28:29.660And despite the fact that the city is already among the highest vaccination highest has among the highest vaccination rate rates in the country.
00:28:40.400All right. Almost I think over 90 percent of New Yorkers have had at least one jab.
00:29:15.880What I've been pointing to is that shortly before he announced he was running for president, he did a big spectacle thing at Trump Tower announcing that he was going to force the Trump administration, not the Trump administration, the Trump organization to pay if they didn't retrofit their buildings to be greener.
00:29:33.480And it was a big spectacle and it got him a lot of news.
00:29:36.460I mean, it didn't help with his 0.0 poll numbers, but he enjoys making a big splash before he announces, I think, the next office.
00:29:45.880And it's it's at the expense of New Yorkers, because what he's saying is that we already have in New York a mandatory a vaccine mandate for government workers.
00:29:57.080And if you want to go into a restaurant or like a basketball game or a gym, you already have to show your vaccine card.
00:30:07.460But now it's expanding to cover all private businesses.
00:30:29.600But today we have either the same or higher case numbers than we did when that vaccine mandate was implemented.
00:30:35.880So this is another also the scrambling to find something else to do to bring that number down, because what we've done so far has been completely ineffective.
00:30:44.680But of course, doing the same thing over and over is the definition of insanity.
00:30:48.760And that's the kind of crazy place that New York has become.
00:30:51.680The idea that kids will not be allowed into indoor spaces is.
00:30:56.340Can you explain it? I didn't I didn't set it up yet to the five to 11 year olds, what he's doing now with them.
00:31:01.140Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really wild because kids are, you know, gratefully really not susceptible to covid.
00:31:09.880I don't think that a lot of parents are rushing out to get their five to 11 year olds vaccinated because they simply don't need it.
00:31:18.180And if forcing them to do it, to be able to eat at restaurants or to go into museums or something is really terrible.
00:31:25.680And it's really going to hurt New York City.
00:31:27.600Because before you could go into a restaurant as a grown up with your littles and you could show your vaccination card, you know, you got to show your papers and your littles would not have to.
00:31:39.320And now he's changing it such that all kids between the ages of five and 11 also have to prove that they've been vaccinated in order to eat out at a New York City restaurant or go to a Knicks game or, you know, go to some other indoor facility like a museum because Bill de Blasio says so.
00:31:56.760So you've got to stick a needle in your five year old's arm because it's going to make him feel better during his last month in office.
00:32:01.860And it kicks in in like two weeks, I think it says.
00:32:05.320Well, let's see. Yeah. Next week. Next week.
00:32:08.240So and by the way, to your point, only 10 percent of American parents have gotten a jab for their five to 11 year olds.
00:32:15.400Parents are not rushing to be the first to try this out on their children.
00:32:19.020Yeah. The thing is that the fact that it takes effect next week, December 14th, it's all these families that had planned to come to New York City for the holidays are now having to cancel their trips or make a really tough decision that they need to vaccinate their kids against a virus that largely does not affect them in order to make that trip.
00:32:37.280So, you know, I hate that I have to say it, but I'm very pro-vax.
00:32:40.580I've been vaccinated. I made sure that my mom has been boosted.
00:32:43.800You know, I may get a booster down the road.
00:32:45.680I I just don't see the point of vaccinating the population of children that is really not susceptible to this.
00:32:52.440And it's it's something that parents across the country are making that same calculation.
00:32:56.340And once again, you cannot test out of the vax mandate.
00:33:02.580So you can't satisfy anybody by proving that you don't have covid and there's no recognition of natural immunity.
00:33:10.140So if your kid just got over covid and is probably the most immune person walking on Earth right now because he's a kid and he just got over covid, you still have to vax him, which, by the way, may not be safe.
00:33:22.780According to the doctors we had on my show last week, you really need to talk to your doctor before you vaccinate your child if he or she has just had covid.
00:33:29.680But Bill de Blasio says you have to do it if you want to come and see the Rockefeller Christmas tree from anywhere indoors while sipping a hot cocoa.
00:33:37.040Right. The lack of natural immunity being used in our society is really just another another layer of covid insanity.
00:33:45.540You actually can come into the U.S. You can look it up on the State Department website with evidence of natural immunity.
00:33:51.220We just don't allow it for any part of American society otherwise, which obviously makes no sense.
00:33:56.780And also the kids that, you know, that they're pushing now to get vaccinated have also just been living in the most harshest condition.
00:34:04.280They've been masked every day at school, including outside in New York City public schools.
00:34:31.720As you know, we've discussed why I left right rolling over on the CRT and the crazy, you know, trans education stuff, which is totally inappropriate.
00:34:39.960And now with the covid protocols that are totally unnecessary, not backed by science.
00:34:44.080Can I stop you for that one for a second on the masks outside and what they're doing?
00:34:50.140So I think most of my listeners are in places where they're like, what?
00:34:54.220Like, I don't think everybody believes we're still doing this to our kids in New York.
00:34:57.760Yeah. And I think when I when I tell stories about what's happening in New York City schools, I get such emails like, how are you still putting up with this?
00:35:07.080And, you know, I ask myself that all the time.
00:35:09.100And in fact, I think this is this is it for our family.
00:35:11.460We're leaving. This is this is the end for us.
00:35:13.820You're doing it. But you said you might when I talked to you last.
00:35:17.660Yeah. But this it's just I don't see an end to the crazy.
00:35:21.900And I think that the city has really been lost, especially where kids are concerned.
00:35:25.980They're they're put last again and again.
00:35:28.060You know, the outdoor masking, the kids largely eat lunch outside at New York City public schools sitting on the ground when it gets too cold.
00:35:36.560Some schools move them in. But it only started happening recently after the New York Post broke the story of that.
00:35:43.020Largely, schools across the city are still eating lunch on the ground outside.
00:35:47.180And that's the only time of the whole day that kids are allowed to remove their masks.
00:35:52.040And nobody else lives like this. Doctors don't live like this.
00:35:55.220You know, doctors leave the hospital and take their masks off.
00:35:58.020Yet we have five year olds who take off their mask for 20 minutes to have their sandwich and have to put it right back on.
00:36:03.860Oh, my gosh. So infuriating. David Leonhard of The New York Times is coming on in a minute.
00:36:08.700I'm looking forward to our conversation. But one of the things he's been he really is.
00:36:12.560He's in a position that's very powerful, right, because he works for The New York Times.
00:36:15.840And so his audience is the group that we need to convince on some of these crazy measures.
00:36:23.140You know, forget, you know, the larger points, but like some of these crazy measures we should be able to agree on.
00:36:28.020Like the kids should not have to wear the masks outside.
00:36:31.540They should not be forced to eat their lunches outside.
00:36:33.300And one of the points he's been making is that there's basically zero evidence that you can even get COVID outside, never mind as a child, which who are they are the least effective vectors of the disease.
00:36:48.100And actually, there was just a study that came out suggesting why that is they just have smaller lungs.
00:36:52.440And they found out that adult men are actually the most effective spreaders of COVID and children are the least effective.
00:36:59.740Yep. And we've seen that through the numbers.
00:37:02.300You know, more men die of COVID than women.
00:37:04.320It's like we just refuse to face the realities of what's happening.
00:37:08.540And there's a reason that kids are dying in such tiny numbers.
00:37:12.840I mean, look, every single death is a tragedy.
00:37:52.100I think he's an amazing writer and I love that he is bringing, you know, information that so many of the rest of us already know to the New York Times readers who haven't heard about it before.
00:38:01.060But, you know, the information has been out there for a while.
00:38:03.880We've known about outdoor transmission for quite some time at the end of 2021 right now.
00:38:09.300And we had this info in the spring of 2020.
00:38:12.200So it's it's just the gap between the information that we have and the acceptance of that information that really drives me crazy.
00:38:20.180You know, it's interesting because, like, as you know, I pulled my kids from the New York schools over the crazy CRT and the other stuff that they're teaching them.
00:38:27.020And now then the schools we found I love, actually, I really love them.
00:38:30.780And they they're not really, you know, off the deep end on any of that stuff.
00:38:36.020However, they are off the deep end on the covid protocols.
00:38:39.300And I'll have listeners now comment to me, like, why don't you pull them?
00:38:50.920You know, I just keep hoping that they're going to see reason and settle down.
00:38:55.360But in too many pockets, especially in blue cities and blue states, it is either going another direction or at least they're comfortable with stasis where I'm not.
00:39:06.080That's you know, you're you're speaking exactly what I think every single day.
00:39:09.920I have people on Twitter just constantly being like, oh, just pull your kids, just homeschool, just move.
00:39:29.920But yeah, you know, we have to do what's best for our kids and we have to get them out.
00:39:34.220And what you're saying is exactly my fear of getting them out and then ending up somewhere where they might also, you know, be crazy with the covid protocols.
00:42:10.060And I, you know, something that keeps me up at night are all the people I'll be leaving behind that can't leave and, you know, have things that they can't abandon here.
00:42:19.460And it's it's it's really easy for the random Twitter commenter to commenter to say, you know, just move, just move.
00:42:26.160And I like to point out that, you know, while New York is a very blue state, it had more Republican voters and, you know, some of the reddest states because it's quite large.
00:42:35.180And there's a lot of people here that don't agree with the blue status quo.
00:42:40.420But because they're in a minority, they just fighting it is nearly impossible.
00:43:01.380And I, you know, hate that I'm leaving those people behind.
00:43:04.940Meanwhile, there will be questions about the legality of this de Blasio order.
00:43:09.080Same as we've seen at, you know, the Joe Biden level with OSHA, though, you know, the sad truth is my my instincts tell me de Blasio probably has more power over the city than Joe Biden has over the country.
00:43:19.760I haven't looked at it legally yet, but I'm concerned that he's got the power.
00:43:24.480However, I'm a little hopeful that Eric Adams, the incoming mayor, has already kind of he's like, this will be reviewed just as soon as I take office.
00:43:34.240He seems like a reasonable man. Do you think he'll undo it?
00:43:38.560You know, I have some hope that he will, but I'd love to hear him say so.
00:43:48.620If this is not something that New Yorkers want, I think Eric Adams would have an easy call and just say, I'm going to reverse this on day one.
00:44:43.460So I have a running thread of mask hypocrites, you know, mask hypocrite politicians that I started in August 2020.
00:44:51.340So it's a really long thread on Twitter.
00:44:53.360And yesterday I updated it with or today I updated it with the governor of Oregon who was, you know, seen indoors without a mask just yesterday.
00:45:01.240So, you know, if masking is so important and it's so dangerous to be without a mask, why are all these politicians in my thread constantly maskless?
00:45:11.520Do they not care about their own safety?
00:45:13.460Are they not worried about what's going to happen to them?
00:45:16.420I mean, in New York, you know, Governor Hochul, she came into office and she moved masking back to two years old.
00:45:23.620It was it was at five when she came in back to two years old.
00:45:28.220So in the daycares now, masks have to be on two year olds.
00:45:31.760This is the person who called the Christmas tree the holiday tree.
00:45:34.580It's gone beyond just happy holidays now.
00:45:36.080It's now you can't even call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree.
00:46:33.440So let's kick it off with Mayor de Blasio's announcement this morning.
00:46:36.440Just left off with Carol Markowitz of The Post talking about it.
00:46:39.080To me, it seems so odd because what we've learned about Omicron, because he's blaming it on Omicron, saying this is our chance to get ahead of it.
00:46:47.420We're going to get ahead of it by expanding the vaccine mandate to private businesses and mandating that five to 11 year olds get vaccinated as well.
00:46:54.720What I see on Omicron so far is it's in at least 38 countries, about a dozen United States in states within the U.S.
00:47:03.100And the WHO has still not said definitively that even that it's more contagious, never mind that it's more severe or deadly or that it's better at evading the vaccines.
00:47:15.140So, I mean, do you buy that this is an attempt to get ahead of Omicron?
00:47:22.400I'll confess, I haven't yet looked at what New York has announced this morning.
00:48:18.460But the overwhelming sign is that it does spread more easily and more rapidly.
00:48:22.200The other sign, and that's the bad news, the better news is that so far it does not appear to produce more severe illness on average than earlier versions of it.
00:49:00.760To me, they do argue for responding in several ways.
00:49:05.000We do really want to try to slow the spread of this, mostly because we still have a lot of unvaccinated people in the United States who are at enormous risk.
00:49:11.160And then also even older people who are vaccinated are at some risk, as are people who've had organ transplants and are undergoing cancer treatment.
00:49:20.680And so I do think some kind of response from politicians is is important and appropriate.
00:49:26.700What do you make of the mandate that by de Blasio that five to 11 year olds get vaccinated?
00:49:32.040Because I've I've watched your reporting saying, let's be real, the risk to children in contracting covid is low, very low.
00:49:42.340Yes. So the risk of getting a covid illness is very low.
00:49:47.200I find the question of mandating childhood vaccination to be really hard.
00:49:53.180And I know that that you think it's a bad idea.
00:49:56.340I know there are other people who think it's a good not to vaccinate them, but to mandate it.
00:49:59.560I think it should be between a parent and this pediatrician.
00:50:03.400So I just think it's a really hard question.
00:50:05.560So let's so as you just said, the the risks of getting serious covid for kids is extremely, extremely low.
00:50:14.200It looks like covid presents the sort of risk to young kids that the flu does.
00:50:19.600I think it's actually probably a somewhat lower risk than a typical annual flu,
00:50:24.780because when you look at the data, the numbers of childhood hospitalizations and deaths are a tiny and be they look similar or maybe slightly lower for covid.
00:50:36.840And then you remember the fact that actually huge numbers of kids are vaccinated for the flu.
00:50:41.120Right. And so if anything, we should kind of expect those to cut the other way.
00:50:45.380We should expect the flu numbers to be less bad, but they're not.
00:50:48.700So the first thing I would say is if you have a young kid, I would really encourage you.
00:50:54.640There are no promises here. There's no 100 percent. There are no guarantees.
00:50:58.620Are there kids who get covid and get really, really sick?
00:51:01.460There are. But it is extremely, extremely rare.
00:51:06.020The kind of risk that covid presents to kids is not the kind of risk that we ordinarily organize our daily lives around.
00:51:12.660We don't we don't shut schools and reorder our entire lives because of the scale of this risk.
00:51:19.000To put it another way, if you are going to reorder your entire life around the risk that covid presents to a five or six year old,
00:51:28.120I would say that means you probably should never put your five or six year old in a car.
00:51:32.960Right. Because it looks like cars present traveling and cars present substantially more risk of serious illness to children than than covid does.
00:51:43.620And so that is why I understand why some people that combined with the fact that we don't have long term data on what the vaccines do to people is why I understand why some people are hesitant to get their kids vaccinated.
00:51:56.820I mean, that's why this is a thing. That's why it's a big deal to mandate it.
00:52:00.380You know, this is the first city I've seen nationwide that's mandated that that age group get the vaccine.
00:52:07.800We saw the L.A., you know, Unified County School District mandate it, but I haven't yet seen a city in America mandate it.
00:52:13.320Maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong. But not only is the risk of getting really ill from covid low to children,
00:52:19.340but what is the risk of contracting long covid to children?
00:52:23.900Because that's that's one thing that parents do worry about.
00:52:26.280But again, I don't think they should be mandated to get the vaccine to prevent it.
00:52:29.820But as I understand it, that, too, is is a relatively low risk.
00:52:34.960Long covid is a really of all the subjects in covid.
00:52:37.920There's so much uncertainty about so many different things.
00:52:40.560And in some ways, this is a silly ranking.
00:52:42.780There's no need to rank them. But I would rank long covid as the one with the most uncertainty.
00:52:46.940People don't even agree about what long covid is.
00:52:50.540And so I think we don't have rates of what long covid looks like.
00:52:56.120All signs are it is extremely low among children.
00:53:25.000I mean, I don't I don't I would encourage all your your listeners and viewers to read my friend Ross Douthat's book on his struggle with with long term Lyme disease.
00:53:35.580I mean, it's just a huge percentage of people out there who have some kind of chronic pain or other things, and they are often unexplained.
00:53:47.000And so so Ross contracted these unexplained symptoms that have subsequently years later been diagnosed as Lyme disease.
00:53:53.460But imagine that he had gotten these symptoms this year instead of when he got them, which was 2016, 2015.
00:54:00.360It would have been absolutely reasonable for him to think that it was a form of long covid.
00:54:05.660And so so what I would say is long covid is real.
00:54:09.280The symptoms that people are experiencing, those are really real.
00:54:13.160But I think what is sometimes happening is or I'm confident this is happening.
00:54:17.460We are misattributing a substantial amount of the of the unexplained symptoms, which, again, are real, that are always out there to long covid.
00:54:26.600And I think that has led to some confusion about how common long covid is.
00:54:30.780Now, I do feel compelled to say we don't know.
00:54:33.520And to me, the two reasons that it's important to vaccinate kids, we can set aside the mandate question for a second or we can talk about it, whatever you want.
00:54:41.200But the reason why I would urge anyone who has young kids to vaccinate them are one.
00:54:45.340There really is uncertainty about the long term effects of covid on your kid.
00:54:50.180I look at the evidence and I say there is more uncertainty about the long term effects of covid on your kid than there is about the long term.
00:55:09.920Yeah, I think one of the concerns and this I would put in the big category of we don't yet know is it is possible that Omicron evades the immunity from prior infection better than it evades the immunity from vaccines.
00:55:26.220But that's one of the early studies from South Africa suggests might be the case.
00:55:29.280If that does prove to be the case, that would be a further argument for everyone getting vaccinated.
00:55:35.780And then the second one is, look, most young kids have grandparents.
00:55:39.140They have older people around them in their lives.
00:55:41.900I know, but that's a personal decision.
00:55:43.480That's that's that's a person, you know, like that's that's for you to decide whether you want to expose your your their nana, your mom to that kind of, you know, risk with the child.
00:55:53.140That's that's what irritates me is it's like I've seen I've talked before about a mother I know who has a medical note from her doctor saying her kids should not get the vaccine.
00:56:01.180They have a long history of blood clotting problems in their family.
00:56:03.860And she presented it to the school and the school said that doesn't qualify.
00:56:08.540Only if he has a negative reaction to the first shot do we recognize a medical exam.
00:56:42.660You wrote I know some readers will recoil at the mention of that question even.
00:56:46.480But I think it's a mistake to treat it as unmentionable.
00:56:48.560There is not the scientific consensus about vaccinating children that there is about adults.
00:56:55.260And and that's why I think, especially with the young ones, we only have a 10 percent vaccination rate so far.
00:56:59.620Only 10 percent have gotten the first shot that, you know, people, parents don't want to go first on their littles.
00:57:04.440And even now, I was going to mention it with Carol, but I forgot Finland apparently just they're officially not recommending the vaccine for kids five to 11 who don't have risk factors saying infections in children of this age are usually mild and severe disease is extremely rare.
00:57:21.060And when the burden of disease is small in one's own group, very few adverse effects are accepted.
00:57:27.900I mean, I think they mean the adverse effects from the vaccine, you know, those outweigh.
00:57:32.200Yeah, look, I, you know, I thank you for quoting from that newsletter.
00:57:41.200I also I look at the evidence and I would say that I think the benefits of vaccinating kids outweigh the downsides.
00:57:46.980I mean, basically, we kind of don't see any evidence of worrisome side effects in the vaccines.
00:57:52.860Yeah. And and this history has repeated itself. Right.
00:57:55.620You know, there are a whole bunch of people I've gone back and read the cover.
00:57:58.000It's fascinating. There are a whole bunch of people who said they would not take the polio vaccine when it came out.
00:58:02.740If you go back and look at the day one newspaper coverage, there were a group of people in Montgomery County, Maryland, which is now, of course, a deep blue part of the country politically.
00:58:14.400But historically, it's more part of the South who said we're not going to take the polio vaccine.
00:58:43.260Realize you can also get myocarditis from COVID.
00:58:45.900So it's you know, it's not a great choice for any parent.
00:58:48.620But but yeah, I mean, that's that's what I've heard a lot of parents worried about myocarditis with children in the vaccine.
00:58:54.780I mean, I think the risk of serious COVID for kids is so low, right?
00:59:00.700I think the risk of vaccine side effects is even lower.
00:59:04.180But I think the risks of serious versions of COVID for kids is so low that I would understand why people wouldn't want to do an uncertain medical intervention.
00:59:15.620I do think the harder thing to grapple with is, though, your kid really could make an older person extremely ill by passing on a mild case of COVID.
00:59:24.620So that's both your kids' grandparents.
00:59:31.160Have you heard the people say because we've had doctors talk about how in no other pandemic or health situation have we looked at children as having a responsibility to save the rest of us like that, that they that some would argue that it's medically unethical to ask kids in the single digits to take as what is still an experimental vaccine to protect the elderly.
00:59:55.080Yep. And, you know, one of the things I try to do in in my journalism, Megan, is admit when I don't know something.
01:00:02.520And so this is where I'm going to I don't know the history.
01:00:06.640My sense is that a bunch of the vaccines that we give to kids, it's not just because they cause illness in young children, but it's also that, you know, that whole regimen of shots that we all got polio, mumps, measles, rubella, all of those smallpox, all of those vaccines.
01:00:25.160That some of that is indeed to protect not just kids, but also adults.
01:00:28.840But I'm not going to pretend to be a historian of vaccines because I'm not.
01:00:33.460And you've just given me a good thing that I should go look up and learn more about.
01:00:37.300What do you make of and then I have I want to talk to you about the treatments that have come out because you've done some interesting writing on the, you know, the new pills, the therapeutics that are coming.
01:00:45.740But can we just spend one minute on the masking of children?
01:00:49.460Because, you know, to me, it just drives me nuts.
01:00:52.240I can't stand seeing the New York City kids inside and outside, constantly masked outside with six feet apart, still masked.