The Megyn Kelly Show - NBC ＂Catch and Kill＂ Hypocrisy, Baldwin Harassed, and What is a Woman Lawsuit, with Mike Davis, Dave Aronberg, Sall Grover, and Katherine Deves ｜ Ep. 773

00:00:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.100 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.280 Did former President Donald Trump violate the gag order issued by Judge Mershon in the New York City hush money case?

00:00:22.620 That was the question argued before the court this morning.

00:00:24.860 The judge has not made a ruling yet, but it does not look good.

00:00:30.000 For the defense.

00:00:31.800 And what would happen if Mr. Trump is found to be in violation of the gag order?

00:00:36.140 We're in uncharted territory right now.

00:00:39.220 This, as his actual trial, is back underway.

00:00:43.980 Pecker's up. He's up again.

00:00:46.760 He's back in the courtroom.

00:00:48.840 Back with us to discuss it all.

00:00:50.220 Mike Davis, founder and president of the Article 3 Project, and Dave Ehrenberg, state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida.

00:00:56.340 Find Mike on Fox and Dave on MSNBC, but only together right here on The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:04.340 Guys, welcome back to the program.

00:01:06.860 So this judge did not seem like he was happy about Trump's statements out of court about Michael Cohen, for example.

00:01:15.980 He seemed to be begging the defense lawyers to give him a reason why he should not find Trump violated the gag order.

00:01:24.060 I don't know why he hasn't ruled yet, but you tell me, Dave, doesn't look good for Donald Trump here.

00:01:29.860 It seems to me like he's about to be found in violation.

00:01:32.080 Yeah, Megan, good to be back with you and Mike.

00:01:35.320 I think the worst part was where the judge told the lawyer, Mr. Blanche, for Trump that you're starting to lose credibility with the court.

00:01:43.760 That's never a good thing when you're a defendant and you hear that your lawyer is losing credibility with the judge.

00:01:49.540 But ultimately, I don't think Trump is going to get a big penalty here at the beginning.

00:01:53.960 I think he'll just get the fine.

00:01:55.600 It'll be graduated over time.

00:01:57.100 And then maybe at some point, if this continues, he'll get something more serious.

00:02:01.260 But in that sense, I do think he's being treated differently than others.

00:02:04.340 I can tell you as a prosecutor, Megan, if someone else acted like this, they would be wearing steel bracelets by now.

00:02:10.480 But, you know, the judge is very aware that Trump is running for president and he is Trump.

00:02:15.240 He's going to let Trump be Trump.

00:02:16.840 And so although the judge is seemingly very annoyed right now, I don't think that this is going to result in anything more, at least for now, than a fine.

00:02:24.760 The judge said to Team Trump, Todd Blanche is Trump's lawyer, you're losing all credibility with the court.

00:02:32.420 This is citing from The New York Times when Blanche insisted that they, meaning Trump and his staff, are trying to follow the rules.

00:02:41.020 He said, you're losing all credibility with me.

00:02:44.060 He also said he wants to hear an assertion under oath that Donald Trump believed he was not violating the gag order when he made some of the posts they were discussing.

00:02:52.960 That doesn't sound good, Mike.

00:02:56.040 That sounds I don't I doubt they're going to get such an assertion from Donald Trump.

00:03:00.120 Todd Blanche was saying, look, this gag order, we're trying to comply with it.

00:03:04.100 But Trump has a group of folks who work for him.

00:03:06.560 They find articles that they think Trump's audience should read.

00:03:09.940 And some of those articles may have criticisms of witnesses like Michael Cohen.

00:03:14.060 And that shouldn't be held against Trump, I suppose, is the is the line of argument.

00:03:19.920 So this Democrat Manhattan Judge Juan Mershon question Trump's lawyers credibility.

00:03:25.360 Let's look at Judge Mershon and this court's credibility on this case.

00:03:28.940 You have this Soros funded Manhattan D.A., Alvin Bragg, who campaigned on getting Trump.

00:03:34.660 He brought these bogus charges against Trump that are at best campaign that are at best bookkeeping violations.

00:03:43.720 They're not even bookkeeping misdemeanors, but at best they're bookkeeping misdemeanors from 2017 that are clearly time barred beyond the statute of limitations.

00:03:53.100 This case was brought after Matthew Colangelo got deployed from the Biden Justice Department, the number three office in the Biden Justice Department, a top political appointee who worked for, you know, Eric Holder and Tom Perez and Obama and Democrat attorney general in New York and Biden and Merrick Garland.

00:04:12.560 He gets deployed to the Alvin Bragg's office to resurrect this zombie case 30 months later after Trump left office.

00:04:19.700 This this is clearly election interference. It's clearly lawfare.

00:04:22.600 It's part of the Democrats organized campaign there before this.

00:04:27.080 Democrats, Manhattan Judge Juan Mershon, who donated to Biden in 2020, he donated to another anti-Trump cause.

00:04:35.180 And more importantly, his adult daughter, Lauren Mershon, is a top Democrat campaign operative,

00:04:41.760 and she's raised nearly a hundred million dollars off of her father's unprecedented criminal trial of a former and likely future president of the United States.

00:04:51.900 That is a clear conflict of interest under New York law requiring Judge Mershon's recusal.

00:04:59.100 That's not just Mike Davis saying that.

00:05:00.880 That is a former Clinton federal judge in the Southern District of New York going on Caitlin Collins' show on CNN on April 5th and stunning Caitlin by saying that this judge Mershon has not recused.

00:05:14.160 His actual response has been to put an unconstitutional gag order on Trump.

00:05:19.280 OK, but that doesn't I appreciate the sentiment, but like let's stay specific for today because our audience has heard these more sweeping arguments before.

00:05:29.160 And I do think it's very interesting whether this this judge is going to punish Trump for violating the gag order,

00:05:34.940 because you really are gagging a presidential candidate from speaking publicly about the witnesses who are out there about him all the time.

00:05:43.840 So I get the unfairness of it. I'll stay with you on this, Mike.

00:05:47.020 I get that it's unfair, right, that that Cohen can go on MSNBC every day and say the most despicable things about Trump possible.

00:05:54.040 But for now, the order, the gag order says Trump is not allowed to respond.

00:06:01.620 And so what do you think this judge is going to do?

00:06:05.240 Because it does appear to me Trump's violated the letter of the gag order by attacking Cohen.

00:06:12.060 But what now what position is this judge in?

00:06:15.880 Because he's either going to find him or he's going to throw him in jail.

00:06:19.500 Well, I don't think we're yet at point B.

00:06:22.940 Well, the problem is, is that this judge put in place an unconstitutional gag order.

00:06:28.260 It is not constitutional to broadly gag a criminal defendant like this.

00:06:33.400 If there's anyone in America who must have the first, sixth and 14th Amendment rights, 0.77

00:06:38.300 rights to speak out against the judge, the prosecutor, the witnesses, the staff, the biases, the process.

00:06:44.840 It is a criminal defendant going through a criminal process, particularly when that criminal defendant is a presidential candidate.

00:06:52.060 And particularly when that presidential candidate is on the receiving end of obvious Democrat lawfare and election interference.

00:06:58.360 So so, yes, this judge Marchand could say, yes, we're going to put President Trump in jail.

00:07:04.140 I actually dare him to do that because I actually think I will guarantee that President Trump is back in the White House.

00:07:09.280 I know. I mean, I think he knows that, Dave. Right.

00:07:12.660 Judge Marchand is not oblivious to the fact that if he actually put this defendant in jail for violating this gag order, it would it would cause a meltdown in the country.

00:07:21.860 Yeah, agreed. That's why they're just going to do a thousand dollars for each violation. 0.98

00:07:25.940 That's even what Bragg asked for, didn't ask to sentence Trump to pretrial incarceration.

00:07:32.620 So they're not there yet. But he does need to cool down on the attacks, especially on the jury.

00:07:38.980 You know, you had at least one member of the jury, the alternate came to the judge and said in tears that not sure if he wants to continue.

00:07:45.360 One member of the jury pleaded to get let off and she did. So it is a problem.

00:07:50.400 And you have, you know, jurors who are there doing their civic duty and they're getting accused of being 95 percent Democratic as far as Manhattan being Democratic and being like plants for the Democrats.

00:08:00.200 You got to calm down on that. And as far as attacking Michael Cohen, you know, you can't engage in witness intimidation.

00:08:06.080 I know it seems unfair that Cohen can attack him. And I know prosecutors are probably cringing at the fact that Cohen is still going after Trump online.

00:08:14.540 That's not a good look. It's not good for the prosecution. But our system is that if you engage in witness intimidation and harassment, that's a violation.

00:08:22.300 That's against the law. And at some point, Trump needs to dial that back. It's not a good look for him.

00:08:26.820 And he could get hit with bigger things than just a fine. And if he continues in the future.

00:08:31.520 Michael Cohen was all over MSNBC, I think just within the past few days, calling Trump despicable.

00:08:38.840 He wants to see him convicted. I mean, all of this is terrible for the DA's case,

00:08:43.620 because he's going to be a witness, a trial, and he's going to get cross-examined with all those statements.

00:08:48.300 Like, you'll say anything. You can't stand him. He's become your nemesis in life.

00:08:52.580 You'll do anything to see him go to jail, just like you did, sir. Isn't that true?

00:08:56.460 Like, this is terrible. But Michael Cohen wants his name in lights and to see his face on television

00:09:02.260 more than he wants to preserve whatever is left of the integrity in this trial.

00:09:07.700 So, I mean, in a way, it's not bad for Trump to have Cohen out there saying all this stuff.

00:09:11.620 But I can see how it's very difficult for him not to respond.

00:09:14.340 All right. So we'll find out how the judge rules on the gag order.

00:09:17.020 I agree it's probably going to be a slap on the wrist. A thousand bucks here, a thousand bucks there.

00:09:20.640 I don't think he violated anything on the jury, though, in the reference that you just made.

00:09:25.940 I did listen to it. It's I have it here.

00:09:28.140 It's immersed in a discussion from MSNBC between Rachel Maddow and Andrew Wiseman, former prosecutor,

00:09:34.080 where they were talking about whether this was a violation of the gag order.

00:09:37.780 And I'll play it here. But for reasons I'll explain, I don't I don't think they've got him on this at all.

00:09:42.320 This hot seven.

00:09:43.960 Here it is. Donald Trump talking about the jury in his trial.

00:09:49.880 That jury was picked so fast.

00:09:51.900 Ninety five percent Democrats.

00:09:54.800 The area is mostly all Democrat.

00:09:57.500 You think of it as a just a purely Democrat area.

00:10:00.600 It's a very unfair situation that I can tell you.

00:10:04.360 That jury, 95 percent Democrats.

00:10:07.580 Again, the last item in the gag order forbids Trump from making or directing others to make public statements

00:10:13.160 about any prospective juror or any juror in this criminal proceeding.

00:10:18.120 So you have Donald Trump clearly goading the judge.

00:10:23.080 He the fact that he's doing something that appears by all accounts to be a direct violation of the order.

00:10:32.720 Dave, I don't see it.

00:10:34.340 I think he caught himself.

00:10:35.900 Trump's very clever.

00:10:37.020 He's he's no dummy.

00:10:38.640 And he said they're all Democrats.

00:10:41.660 This area.

00:10:43.240 Right.

00:10:43.500 It was like comma this area.

00:10:45.540 And he saved himself that he is not going to get in trouble on that one.

00:10:48.900 What do you think?

00:10:50.600 It's a really good point because you can look at different ways.

00:10:53.800 But it looks like he did catch himself.

00:10:55.780 He's wrong that the area is not 95 percent Democratic, but he won't get in trouble for for saying that.

00:11:00.580 But it went 87 percent for Joe Biden in Manhattan.

00:11:03.080 Eighty seven percent.

00:11:03.960 He's close enough.

00:11:04.780 It was it was a good reference.

00:11:06.680 Well, you can have a lot of independents who vote Democratic.

00:11:09.280 But yes, a point taken.

00:11:10.780 But he can't really he shouldn't be just addressing the the jurors, their party affiliation, their biases at all.

00:11:19.100 So, yeah, you may be right, Megan, that he doesn't get slapped down specifically for that yet.

00:11:24.020 But he'll be admonished.

00:11:25.400 I suspect that Judge Mershon is not only going to hit him with fines, but is going to broaden the gag order to say no more mentioning juries in any way.

00:11:32.920 So I think it's going to be a tighter gag order against Trump and a fine.

00:11:37.000 But yeah, nowhere near.

00:11:38.440 Let me ask you about that.

00:11:39.660 So so then, Mike, I mean, would Trump under this?

00:11:42.260 You've already said you think it's unconstitutional.

00:11:44.040 So I get that.

00:11:44.640 But let's just talk about the letter of the gag order.

00:11:46.760 Would he be prevented from saying on this juror on this jury?

00:11:50.140 I have seven men and five women.

00:11:53.140 I have jurors only from Manhattan.

00:11:55.680 I have mostly professionals and college graduates.

00:11:58.240 Would he be prevented from saying that?

00:11:59.960 Because he's not prevented from saying that he's not prevented from saying they're mostly from a Democrat area.

00:12:07.120 You're proving the point, Megan, that this this gag order is unconstitutional.

00:12:11.920 Gag orders are supposed to protect criminal defendants.

00:12:14.820 They should be gagging Cohen, right, because he is a witness who is tampering with the jury pool by going on TV and bashing Trump.

00:12:22.240 They should not be bashing Trump.

00:12:24.340 He's the defendant.

00:12:25.320 Right.

00:12:25.480 And let me just jump in and say one thing to your point, Mike.

00:12:27.800 I'm thinking about the Idaho case, which, you know, we talked about a lot on the show against Brian Kohlberger.

00:12:33.160 That judge issued the sweeping gag order, which people are unhappy with.

00:12:36.420 But even the families of the victims there are barred from speaking.

00:12:39.660 The defendants barred from.

00:12:40.900 They're all barred from speaking.

00:12:42.360 It has some, you know, equal weight on both sides of the case.

00:12:48.200 This one is just the defendant.

00:12:50.140 You will keep your mouth shut about everybody other than the judge and the jury and the prosecutor.

00:12:56.040 He's a lot.

00:12:56.660 He's allowed to criticize the prosecutor and the judge.

00:13:00.020 Yeah.

00:13:00.480 And that's the problem.

00:13:01.240 The whole point of a gag order is to protect the defendant is to make sure it's a limited time,

00:13:06.560 place and manner restrictions on other people's free speech rights in order to protect the criminal

00:13:11.980 defendant's constitutional rights to get a fair, public and speedy trial.

00:13:16.280 It is a limited time, place and manner restriction that goes away after the trial.

00:13:21.060 You gag the other people.

00:13:23.200 You don't gag the criminal defendant.

00:13:24.800 If the criminal defendant is actually making threats against the judge, his family, the witnesses, the jurors,

00:13:31.460 there are criminal statutes that address that obstruction of justice, witness tampering,

00:13:36.240 not this vague and overbought broad gag order on a criminal defendant going through the process,

00:13:42.420 particularly when he is a presidential candidate, the leading presidential candidate.

00:13:46.880 And your point is your point's perfect, Megan, that can he talk about that it's 50 percent men and 50 percent women or whatever?

00:13:54.580 That's the problem.

00:13:55.280 He doesn't know if he can talk about that.

00:13:56.660 That makes this gag order unconstitutional on its face.

00:13:59.120 Yeah, it's just it's not. 0.99

00:14:01.240 They were talking about that soundbite, Dave, as if Trump had said, like, these jurors suck. 0.99

00:14:06.840 They're biased. 1.00

00:14:08.040 They'll never give me a fair trial.

00:14:09.680 He says that about the judge every day, including today, after the gag order hearing, he posted something untruth.

00:14:16.620 That's OK.

00:14:17.200 He can go after the judge.

00:14:18.300 But they're talking about that soundbite as a him as though he said that stuff about the jury.

00:14:23.020 And he didn't.

00:14:23.860 All he said was what we played.

00:14:25.360 Nothing more.

00:14:26.160 So I think that was a sleight of hand and I predict he'll be OK on that.

00:14:30.240 You agree with me?

00:14:31.720 Well, yeah, I do think he'll be OK with that.

00:14:33.940 Well, I think he'll be a tighter gag order to prevent him from doing that in the future.

00:14:37.520 But I do think that he was pretty clever in catching himself on that.

00:14:42.520 The fact that he can continue to bash the judge is such a shock to me as a prosecutor that that judges are allowing a defendant to go ahead and go after them.

00:14:51.740 The gag order does not prevent Trump from going after the judge or the prosecutor, just the judge's family, just the witnesses, just the jurors.

00:15:01.480 So that's why I think he's being treated better than other defendants.

00:15:05.180 Remember, once you're arrested for a crime, you don't have the same First Amendment rights as everyone else.

00:15:08.840 You're told you cannot communicate with victims, you cannot communicate with witnesses, you can't drink alcohol.

00:15:13.880 There's all these other limitations on you.

00:15:15.740 So, oh, yeah, yeah, we see that all the time.

00:15:18.800 We see enough to stay above the law.

00:15:22.380 But wait, so you're telling me in your average case, if you have a defendant, the defendant is not allowed to criticize the judge.

00:15:27.780 Oh, if if if a defendant criticizes the judge, that defendant we brought in and held in contempt.

00:15:36.140 Yeah. Yeah. I don't know of any other case.

00:15:38.320 I don't know of any other case where the defendant is out there bashing the judge.

00:15:42.140 This judge is allowing and all the judges have been allowing Trump to do things that no other defendant that I'm aware of has done.

00:15:48.860 And I've never seen it before. I've never seen someone get away with it.

00:15:51.240 I'm sure it's the unique circumstances of his role in the public eye and potentially public service.

00:15:56.600 Here's what he tweeted or posted on Truth Social.

00:16:00.700 It was it says 8 a.m.

00:16:02.880 He writes highly conflicted, to put it mildly, Judge Juan Murchon has taken away my constitutional right to free speech.

00:16:09.900 Everybody is allowed to talk and lie about me, but I'm not allowed to defend myself.

00:16:13.460 This is a kangaroo court and the judge should recuse himself.

00:16:16.540 So the judge is allowing that, which I just think he has no he has no choice but to allow.

00:16:21.140 OK, enough on the gag order, as fascinating as that is.

00:16:23.420 It's it's way more interesting to talk about what happened in court yesterday.

00:16:26.880 And I'm dying to talk to you guys.

00:16:29.040 I'm so glad that we had you booked because as Alvin Bragg laid out through his emissary, Colangelo, laid out what he's actually alleging, Mike.

00:16:42.180 I was like, huh.

00:16:45.720 Right.

00:16:46.280 I where was the big thing about the campaign finance violation, which is what resurrected the dead misdemeanor.

00:16:53.800 Right.

00:16:54.260 It wasn't there.

00:16:55.580 You know, the audience is probably familiar enough with this at this point.

00:16:59.020 But, you know, it was like he has a misdemeanor under New York law of alleged falsification of business records.

00:17:04.020 And that statute of limitations had long since run.

00:17:07.060 The only way he resurrected the dead claim was to say the reason they falsify the record was to cover up an underlying felony.

00:17:13.740 And we all said when Bragg filed the indictment.

00:17:16.960 OK, what was the underlying felony?

00:17:19.140 Lay it on us.

00:17:19.860 And remember, we talked about on the show.

00:17:21.600 He was like, I don't have to tell you.

00:17:24.060 He said that at a press conference.

00:17:25.720 He's like, I don't have to say.

00:17:28.320 And then he's like, it might be finance law in New York state.

00:17:32.240 And then that quickly fell apart.

00:17:33.900 People were like that.

00:17:34.480 You don't have that.

00:17:35.200 No, that's not it.

00:17:36.280 And so then it was kind of like, well, federal, federal election law.

00:17:39.980 But he's kept it pretty vague.

00:17:41.780 And for this past year, we've all been looking at federal election law.

00:17:45.060 Like, I guess it's campaign finance violation where he's saying this one hundred and thirty thousand dollar payment that was made to Stormy Daniels to keep her quiet in advance of the election was considered a donation to his campaign that he didn't properly document.

00:17:55.720 Bah, bah, bah, bah, all that.

00:17:57.880 That's not how it's sounding.

00:17:59.840 It's sounding much more amorphous and innocent than that.

00:18:06.220 But he's saying yesterday, Mike, the D.A., it's about a conspiracy, which has not been alleged as a crime to help Trump get elected by this whole catch and kill scheme where Trump's friend at the National Enquirer was paying off women to give him the exclusive rights to their stories.

00:18:28.940 And then he wouldn't publish them to help Trump.

00:18:31.980 Like.

00:18:33.060 That's it.

00:18:34.020 Were you surprised at like, is that the sum and substance of this case now?

00:18:39.600 I'm not surprised that this is a bogus case because I've been saying that.

00:18:43.680 Did you hear what I heard?

00:18:44.540 Did you hear like were you waiting for like the big like where is it?

00:18:48.380 This is this it that the AMI knew that?

00:18:50.340 No, I mean, I knew they had nothing.

00:18:52.540 And that's the problem is that you have.

00:18:54.680 And there's no reason that Judge Mershon should not have dismissed this case on a motion to dismiss the indictment because it doesn't add up.

00:19:03.060 There's no legal violation here.

00:19:04.720 Even if everything Matthew Colangelo and Alvin Bragg allege is true, there's no legal violation.

00:19:11.280 You don't violate any law.

00:19:12.960 Remember, it's not a crime for a businessman to settle a nuisance claim or hush money or whatever you call it.

00:19:19.320 It might be unseemly to some, but that happens all the time.

00:19:22.740 And you'd have to prove that Trump only did this because he was running for president and he was trying to do this to benefit his campaign.

00:19:30.540 You know, let's look at Trump's past.

00:19:32.320 I bet you he's paid off a lot of nuisance claims in his 40 plus year business career. 0.97

00:19:37.940 And that's why this case is so silly.

00:19:39.520 I mean, it's why the prior Manhattan D.A., the Manhattan U.S. attorney, the Federal Election Commission and Bragg himself declined to prosecute this case until Colangelo got sent.

00:19:49.060 But if Trump talks about Colangelo, he violates the gag order.

00:19:53.520 So there was a very interesting piece today, Dave, staying on this same point in The New York Times.

00:19:58.280 It was a guest essay by Jed Handelsman Sugarman, law professor at BU.

00:20:03.300 And the headline is, I thought the Bragg case against Trump was a legal embarrassment.

00:20:06.820 Now I think it's a historic mistake.

00:20:09.520 And he goes on to talk about how he listened to the opening statement yesterday by the prosecutors and said this is such a vague allegation about, quote, a criminal scheme to corrupt the 2016 presidential election,

00:20:26.000 which he says has him more concerned than ever about their unprecedented use of state law and their persistent avoidance of specifying an election crime or a valid theory of fraud.

00:20:38.580 This is how I was feeling, too.

00:20:41.020 And he went on to say, look, as a reality check, it is legal for a candidate to pay for a nondisclosure agreement.

00:20:48.920 Hush money is unseemly, but it's legal.

00:20:53.300 And that's exactly how I felt.

00:20:55.200 He said in this opening argument, the prosecutor still evaded specifics about what was illegal, about influencing an election, but then just claimed it was election fraud, pure and simple.

00:21:07.860 None of the relevant state or federal statutes refer to filing violations as fraud.

00:21:13.300 Calling it election fraud is a legal and strategic mistake exaggerating the case and setting up the jury with high expectations that the prosecutors cannot meet.

00:21:24.220 And indeed, the defense got up there and said it's not election fraud to try to get yourself elected, to try to to pay off people who want to say damaging things about you.

00:21:36.680 Like, that's not they're boiling it down to something that is going to be, I think, rather easily dismissed.

00:21:45.520 Megan, here's what's going on.

00:21:47.920 And I was surprised, too, because Mike and I and you, we all agree that this case was going to be about falsification of business records.

00:21:56.120 And the second crime, which takes it to a felony, would be federal campaign finance violations.

00:22:02.620 But remember, there were some problems because can you piggyback on a federal law to elevate a state misdemeanor to a state felony?

00:22:08.660 Well, the prosecutors decided to go in a different direction.

00:22:11.680 And this is the most underreported story out there.

00:22:13.920 I'm glad you're asking me this question.

00:22:15.540 Instead of federal campaign finance violations, they instead found a different statute, a second statute that's a state crime.

00:22:21.780 And that is Section 17-152.

00:22:25.900 You can read it with me and your audience can read it with me.

00:22:28.280 It's called Conspiracy to Promote or Prevent Election Fraud.

00:22:33.180 I think it's here.

00:22:34.480 Here's what it says.

00:22:35.880 Any two or more persons who conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means in which conspiracy is acted upon by one or more of the parties there, too, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

00:22:48.920 So what they're doing is they're taking this obscure, vague statute that creates a misdemeanor for conspiring to influence an election and using that to elevate this underlying crime, the falsification of business records, into a film.

00:23:03.520 Okay, this is very important.

00:23:04.640 This is extremely important.

00:23:05.840 I want to let you finish your point.

00:23:07.820 People need to pay attention.

00:23:09.020 We've been talking now for a year about how we thought they were going to try to make it a campaign finance thing, and he's not.

00:23:14.380 He's going a different way.

00:23:15.480 And the statute you mentioned is it, Conspiracy to Promote Election Fraud by two or more people, two or more people conspire to promote election fraud by unlawful means, an election by unlawful means.

00:23:27.760 What are the unlawful means?

00:23:29.860 Because you can't jump right to the falsification of business records.

00:23:33.700 We have to start with the felony before you can even ask whether he falsified records about it.

00:23:38.900 What were the unlawful means?

00:23:40.760 Right, and that is the issue that prosecutors are going to have, because the unlawful means is not the hush money payment.

00:23:48.560 That's not illegal, as Sugarman and Mike have said.

00:23:51.540 But what is illegal is the campaign finance violation.

00:23:54.780 So we're back to the state, excuse me, the federal law.

00:23:57.320 We're back to that again, because when Michael Cohen made the contribution of $130,000, that was a federal campaign finance violation.

00:24:05.640 That's the illegal means.

00:24:06.780 So that's what they're saying.

00:24:07.520 They're saying we don't need to rely on federal law.

00:24:10.240 There's a state law on the books that makes what Michael Cohen did illegal, and thus one misdemeanor plus another misdemeanor equals a felony.

00:24:18.000 The biggest problem, though, I think prosecutors will have, Megan, is not at the trial.

00:24:22.360 I actually think there's enough evidence to convict.

00:24:24.000 I think on appeal, the judges on appeal may say federal law preempts state law in this area.

00:24:31.060 The federal campaign finance law preempts a state law, and thus the felonies are thrown out, and we're just going to keep the convictions against Trump as misdemeanors.

00:24:40.860 That could very well happen.

00:24:41.980 This is so convoluted.

00:24:45.360 So it's the underlying felony that resurrected the dead misdemeanor is this state law saying two people can't conspire to promote an election by unlawful means.

00:24:57.600 And the unlawful means jumps us over to federal law, and it's an alleged campaign finance violation in that he paid $130,000 to a porn star to keep quiet with the sole purpose of advancing his election.

00:25:15.820 But we've already interviewed election officials, former commissioner of the FEC on the program, saying in order to qualify as a campaign finance violation, that $130,000, not even just in Trump's mind, would have had to be for something that could only ever be used for an election.

00:25:37.040 In other words, the test isn't exactly, it's hard, let me try to restate it, to figure out whether that $130,000 is an illegal payment, like a campaign finance violation.

00:25:49.460 You have to prove that no one would ever pay a hush money payment for any purpose other than to win an election.

00:25:59.060 Mike is shaking his head yes, and Dave is shaking his head no, as I say that.

00:26:02.200 That's the law.

00:26:02.800 Why do you say no, Dave?

00:26:03.780 Because I was on the program with you, Megan, when we had that expert, and I countered it.

00:26:09.300 Right.

00:26:09.820 And remember, I countered it, I said, what about John Edwards?

00:26:11.820 And he said, oh, yeah, that was the exception.

00:26:14.480 And so the feds did prosecute John Edwards for it.

00:26:17.660 Now, it was a hung jury.

00:26:19.540 He wasn't-

00:26:20.100 I was going to say, how'd that work out?

00:26:21.860 Yeah, it didn't work out too well.

00:26:23.020 But I think the facts actually are stronger against Trump than John Edwards, but we can talk about that later.

00:26:28.420 But there is precedent for it.

00:26:30.460 So that's where I disagree with Brad Smith.

00:26:32.680 Go ahead, Mike.

00:26:33.120 Dave actually proved my point when he said that there's enough evidence here to get a conviction that may not get upheld on appeal.

00:26:39.640 That's the whole move here.

00:26:40.840 This is what Alvin Bragg is doing.

00:26:42.560 This is what Matthew Colangelo is doing.

00:26:44.840 This is what Judge Mershon is doing.

00:26:46.480 They are trying to get a criminal conviction of President Trump, a felony conviction of President Trump before November 5th, 2024.

00:26:54.060 They don't give a damn if that gets upheld on appeal by the New York courts or the Supreme Court of the United States.

00:27:00.040 It just proves that what they're doing is election interference.

00:27:04.700 Okay, I want to go through-

00:27:06.180 The misdemeanors would hold up.

00:27:06.620 Yeah, go ahead.

00:27:07.500 Yeah, the misdemeanors would hold up, but not necessarily the felony.

00:27:10.060 And I'm not sure-

00:27:10.560 But they're time-barred.

00:27:11.260 They're time-barred.

00:27:13.200 Why the-

00:27:13.920 They can continue to prosecute the misdemeanors in this case.

00:27:16.200 I thought the court said, no, that you can continue.

00:27:17.960 It just may not rise to the level of felony.

00:27:19.120 I thought we were talking about the falsification of business records, which was expired two years after it happened.

00:27:24.260 So, you know, that would have been done back in, what, 19?

00:27:27.380 And the only way it got resurrected was because it was to cover up an underlying felony.

00:27:31.740 But if there's no underlying felony, if that jujitsu you just walked us through is not blessed by the appellate court, the case is dead.

00:27:40.100 But if you don't have the underlying misdemeanor, the underlying 34 counts of falsification on business records, and the whole case goes away,

00:27:45.740 so that's not barred by statute of limitations.

00:27:47.900 You can still pursue that.

00:27:49.120 It's just a question of whether it will ever rise to a felony, and that's something for the appellate courts, because I do agree we're in uncharted territory here.

00:27:57.480 I think you're saying-

00:27:59.680 I think we're not on the same page.

00:28:01.420 Mike and I are saying you can't-

00:28:03.240 You don't even-

00:28:03.800 Like, once the underlying felony collapses, we don't have to spend any time on whether there was falsification of business records.

00:28:09.340 It's done.

00:28:10.200 It doesn't live as a claim unless you can prove an underlying felony.

00:28:12.780 That's all we're trying to say.

00:28:14.400 And we think that the underlying felony is not going to be found by an appellate court.

00:28:17.860 No, you can still have the falsification of business records standing alone.

00:28:21.960 It's just that no prosecutor would have ever brought this case-

00:28:24.140 But it's time-barred.

00:28:25.920 But those were from 2007-

00:28:26.940 It's time-barred.

00:28:28.420 Yeah, it's over.

00:28:29.620 You cannot have those.

00:28:30.440 That's why he had to tie it to an underlying felony, because the time statute of limitations had expired on that claim.

00:28:37.960 Megan, we're on different pages here, but it's my understanding that you couldn't even bring the case if the underlying misdemeanors-

00:28:44.640 Remember, the only counts in this are 34 counts of misdemeanors.

00:28:48.080 That's the indictment.

00:28:49.260 That's the only thing.

00:28:49.880 And if those were time-barred, they couldn't bring it, regardless of what the second crime is, which he's never specified.

00:28:54.180 I don't know what he's saying, but Mike and I and the audience understand this perfectly.

00:28:58.420 I don't know what Dave took a gummy before coming on the show today.

00:29:02.440 I don't know what's happening.

00:29:04.180 A vitamin B gummy, maybe.

00:29:05.700 Okay, I'm pushing that argument off to the side because it was confusing, and I don't think we're on the same page, but I think we've accurately stated the law as it is.

00:29:15.480 Okay, let's talk about some of the analysis that I've been watching, because I love to watch how the media covers these events.

00:29:23.320 And here is some of the Trump defense.

00:29:28.120 Actually, let me do this soundbite before we get to the stuff I saw on MSNBC.

00:29:31.320 The Trump defense is in part on whether that misdemeanor, Mike, writing down legal expense when, in fact, it was a hush money payment, part of his defense is there was nothing wrong with what I wrote.

00:29:50.840 You know, even if Michael Cohen was paying off Stormy Daniels on my behalf and then I reimbursed him, categorizing it as a legal expense is not a lie.

00:29:59.940 It's not a falsification of a business record.

00:30:02.500 So he's going to take on, you know, he definitely thinks that claim is time barred, and he thinks there's no underlying felony, but he does have to fight the fight.

00:30:09.680 So in fighting the fight about whether he falsified a business record, he's going to say, I think, first of all, I didn't do anything.

00:30:15.260 I had a bunch of accountants and people who handled this stuff for me.

00:30:17.700 But second of all, what did they do?

00:30:19.720 They marked down legal expense when they were paying off my lawyer, Michael Cohen.

00:30:23.800 Here's a bit of that.

00:30:25.320 This is Trump yesterday speaking to it.

00:30:27.800 It's not one.

00:30:28.200 They called a payment to a lawyer a legal expense in the books.

00:30:34.740 They didn't call it construction.

00:30:36.660 They didn't say you're building a building.

00:30:38.300 They called a payment to a lawyer.

00:30:41.080 This is what took me off and takes me off the campaign trail because I should be in Georgia now.

00:30:47.440 I should be in Florida now.

00:30:48.880 I should be in a lot of different places right now campaigning.

00:30:51.480 And I'm sitting here.

00:30:53.280 And this will go on for a long time.

00:30:54.860 It's very unfair.

00:30:55.940 So what about that?

00:30:59.000 If my lawyer pays off a debt that I owe and I reimburse my lawyer, what's wrong with documenting

00:31:06.480 it as a legal expense?

00:31:07.840 That's a good question.

00:31:09.980 I mean, I think it happens pretty routinely with businessmen when they have their lawyers settle claims for that.

00:31:15.800 Right.

00:31:15.960 And this is going to set a pretty interesting precedent for these New York businesses and New York corporations and New York businessmen if if they're settling a nuisance claim through your lawyer, which is pretty routine.

00:31:28.480 I mean, if they're going to be charged with bookkeeping misdemeanors and that's going to be transformed into felonies many years down the road if you're in political disfavor with the prosecutor and the judge.

00:31:40.320 I mean, that's the path we're heading down.

00:31:43.080 I feel like this is one of those things, Dave, that a jury could get very easily.

00:31:49.320 They wrote legal expense.

00:31:51.780 He was paying his lawyer.

00:31:53.560 How is that fraud?

00:31:54.540 Well, you have two lawyers on the jury and an engineer, and they're going to really dissect this.

00:32:02.700 That could be beneficial for the defense.

00:32:05.260 But they have evidence that Trump was part of this scheme with Michael Cohen and David Pecker to pay hush money and that these weren't legal fees.

00:32:15.900 The legal fees were a ruse.

00:32:17.120 Michael Cohen was a fixer.

00:32:18.380 He had a campaign email address, and there are lots of other things that show that this was all about the campaign, and so it should have been disclosed as a campaign expense.

00:32:27.400 It was hidden by filing it as a legal expense.

00:32:31.140 And Trump is saying, I had nothing to do with it.

00:32:33.140 I know nothing.

00:32:33.760 It was a low-level account whose name I can't – I don't even know.

00:32:38.680 And I think that's hard to believe, especially because I think you have to take that leap to think that Michael Cohen somehow did this on his own and then Trump just reimbursed him afterwards.

00:32:48.460 Michael Cohen is a lawyer, and Mike is an excellent lawyer, but not even Mike Davis will shell out $130,000 of his own money, take out a home loan to pay off a debt of his boss and not tell him until later.

00:33:00.680 So I don't buy that explanation by Trump.

00:33:03.840 Well, and they're also going to have testimony in connection with another payoff to another woman, Karen McDougal, that has Trump on tape acknowledging the deal.

00:33:15.240 So they don't have that on the stormy payment, but they do have it to show, look, he knew about this one and blessed it.

00:33:21.500 What are the odds that he didn't know about the stormy one and that Michael Cohen just did that out of the goodness of his heart?

00:33:26.720 And Cohen, of course, is going to testify. 0.97

00:33:28.520 Trump knew all about it, and the only reason I paid it is because he told me to, and that's why Trump's going to say he's a liar.

00:33:32.840 But yeah, I mean, I think there probably will be some evidence that it wasn't just some random accountant and that Trump knew the payment was being made to Michael Cohen.

00:33:42.200 But the documentation of it, you said legal fees.

00:33:45.660 I do think that's different.

00:33:48.320 A legal fee is different from a legal expense, right?

00:33:51.700 Legal fee to me implies I'm paying you for your time as a lawyer, like I'm paying you for your for your research, your drafting, your appearances in court for me.

00:33:59.940 Legal expense, I don't know.

00:34:01.600 I think we're closer to what they actually did.

00:34:03.740 You went out and incurred an expenditure on my behalf, and I reimbursed you for it.

00:34:07.780 Yeah, well, they've got phone calls between Michael Cohen and Donald Trump at the time that Michael Cohen created the entity that would be used to pay off Stormy Daniels.

00:34:16.560 And they've got Alan Weisselberg's notes that he took that describes the reimbursement scheme, and they're pretty detailed.

00:34:24.820 And then you have this text message between Stormy Daniels' lawyer and someone at the Trump team, or I think it was – I forgot who it was.

00:34:34.360 So it was Stormy Daniels' lawyer at the time who texted someone right after Trump won the election to say, what have we done?

00:34:40.640 What have we done?

00:34:41.860 Yeah, what have we done?

00:34:43.160 Yeah.

00:34:43.600 It was Dylan Howard.

00:34:44.520 It was the AMI.

00:34:45.120 It wasn't it the AMI?

00:34:46.040 It was Pecker?

00:34:46.640 Correct.

00:34:46.920 Or somebody?

00:34:47.580 Or Dylan Howard, yeah.

00:34:49.320 Yeah, it was Dylan Howard AMI.

00:34:50.280 Dylan Howard, who's underneath Pecker over at National Enquirer.

00:34:53.760 Okay, so you keep saying scheme, and this is one of the things that I'm stuck on, too, Mike.

00:35:04.360 Can we use a scheme in this way if what they're doing is legal?

00:35:09.060 Like, scheme makes it sound, I guess, extra bad.

00:35:12.120 That's what we hear all the time in the court and outside in the press.

00:35:15.060 What really is he accused of doing?

00:35:17.060 He was running for president.

00:35:19.240 A porn star with whom he may or may not have had an affair comes forward to say, I'm going to the National Enquirer. 0.64

00:35:25.920 I'm going to tell the world that I slept with you.

00:35:28.440 True or not, I'm going to tell them that.

00:35:30.740 Everyone's going to hear that.

00:35:31.660 Your wife, your children, your minor son.

00:35:35.060 And I'm going public with it.

00:35:37.100 And he says, you know, this billionaire to whom $130,000 is, yes, he's a penny pincher.

00:35:42.460 They point that out in court, but he's a billionaire.

00:35:44.240 It's not like $130,000 for you or me.

00:35:45.940 He says, get rid of her. 1.00

00:35:48.620 Like, fine.

00:35:49.480 Like, by the way, not for nothing, but that amount, like $100,000 to $150,000, that is classic, just make them go away money.

00:35:58.060 That's not huge dollars.

00:35:59.840 That's like a nuisance value settlement.

00:36:02.520 So the number comports with, just get rid of her. 1.00

00:36:05.480 I don't want to deal with this.

00:36:07.240 And the scheme was, I'll just do it through my pal, David Pecker, who runs the National Enquirer.

00:36:13.100 He's going to catch and kill the story.

00:36:14.700 He's going to say, come here.

00:36:16.580 Here's $130,000, or in the case of Karen McDougall, $150,000.

00:36:20.260 Write your story.

00:36:22.180 You know, supposedly we'll print it, or maybe we won't, but we buy the rights to it.

00:36:25.540 And then you go away.

00:36:27.020 So how is this scheming?

00:36:28.800 Like, so far, even according to this BU professor in the Times that I read from, or was it BC?

00:36:35.900 I just make sure.

00:36:36.620 Boston University.

00:36:37.200 That's not illegal.

00:36:39.440 And when did this Karen McDougall catch and kill allegedly happen? 0.97

00:36:46.920 Was it during the presidential campaign?

00:36:48.660 It was before the presidential campaign.

00:36:50.480 So that actually provides evidence that Trump, if he did this, he's not doing it to benefit his campaign.

00:36:56.600 He's been doing that for a long time.

00:37:00.620 That's the thing.

00:37:01.740 So like, Dave, scheme, okay.

00:37:04.960 But like, they're taking conduct that, let's face it, men have been engaging in for a very long time and trying to make it this big illegal scheme.

00:37:14.720 It's like, he paid off a woman who was threatening to say something embarrassing about him.

00:37:20.400 How is it a scheme?

00:37:22.860 The way that it was structured is to make a campaign contribution, essentially.

00:37:28.840 It's an expenditure to the campaign.

00:37:30.760 It's something that Michael Cohen was paying Stormy Daniels $130,000 when the limit was $2,800 at the time.

00:37:37.460 And when you do that, that's a violation.

00:37:39.240 That's the illegal conduct on which the statute rests.

00:37:43.260 So that's the problem here for Trump.

00:37:46.400 So under that logic, Dave, under that logic, no man can pay off somebody, a woman, any woman who comes forward or person from their past and says,

00:37:57.700 I'm going public with damaging information while that man is running for president.

00:38:01.460 You cannot do it.

00:38:02.540 Once you've declared, you have to let all the terrible information come out.

00:38:07.140 You just have to let yourself be smeared by everybody.

00:38:09.620 You can't pay off anybody to keep quiet and sign an NDA.

00:38:13.260 Well, you have to do it legally under campaign finance laws.

00:38:16.120 You can use like third parties.

00:38:17.300 Hey, Trump could have just paid it out of his own pocket.

00:38:19.620 That's the thing.

00:38:20.760 Trump wanted his company to pay it.

00:38:22.100 You can go to the fact that Trump didn't like to dig into his own pocket.

00:38:24.960 But if he had just reimbursed it out of his own pocket, there'd be less of a campaign finance issue here.

00:38:29.300 But the fact is, Michael Cohen paid it, and then his company reimbursed it.

00:38:33.160 And there is the issue because it was an illegal campaign contribution from a donor, in this case, Michael Cohen.

00:38:39.520 And then it wasn't recorded as what it really was in the business record.

00:38:44.440 So that's what led to this problem.

00:38:46.380 And as far as John Edwards, this is important on this.

00:38:48.820 John Edwards had third parties pay his mistress.

00:38:52.020 Bonnie Mellon.

00:38:53.760 Right.

00:38:54.340 And the payment started well before the election.

00:38:56.760 And here's the key for John Edwards, though.

00:38:58.900 They continued after the election.

00:39:01.320 So for Trump, there's evidence that he told Michael Cohen, don't pay Stormy Daniels after the election.

00:39:08.100 Let's try to postpone this so we don't have to pay.

00:39:10.200 Then it won't matter.

00:39:11.620 So that shows that the whole intent here was to influence the election.

00:39:15.500 So I don't think he used his business.

00:39:17.840 I don't think he used business funds to pay this.

00:39:19.880 I think it came out of the revocable trust in his personal thoughts.

00:39:24.440 Dave has no comment on that.

00:39:26.040 I don't know whether that matters or not.

00:39:26.740 I know it was to me.

00:39:27.980 Well, regardless, the way that it was recorded was legal fees, which is the statute here.

00:39:33.940 That's the violation.

00:39:34.680 But when Michael Cohen made the payment, that was the contribution that needed to be reported.

00:39:42.360 And then separately, the Trump organization, whoever reimbursed it, has to report it properly.

00:39:47.080 And it wasn't legal fees.

00:39:48.820 Well, the problem is the statute applies to business records and that this payment came from personal funds.

00:39:54.500 And so that's another legal problem with this whole case is that they're going after President Trump for, you know, having fraudulent business records or whatever they're labeling it that he.

00:40:05.140 But the problem is, is he used his personal funds to pay this.

00:40:08.480 It's so convoluted.

00:40:09.960 There is no jury that's going to understand this.

00:40:11.980 But I do think a jury can understand how is it fraud when he wrote down legal expense?

00:40:17.580 He paid the lawyer back and he wrote down legal expense.

00:40:20.740 How is this a fraud?

00:40:21.620 Hold on.

00:40:22.420 There's an update from inside the courtroom on Pecker.

00:40:26.200 When described as via New York Post, when describing the August 2015 meeting at Trump Tower, this is between Trump and David Pecker, where they struck this deal.

00:40:34.640 You know, you're going to help me bury bad stories.

00:40:38.520 David Pecker said he warned Donald Trump that women would try to sell stories about him as his presidential campaign heated up.

00:40:44.640 I was the person that thought there would be a lot of women to come out to try to sell their stories because Mr.

00:40:49.760 Trump was well known as the most eligible bachelor and dated the most beautiful women, Pecker said.

00:40:54.820 It is my experience that when someone runs for office like this, it's very common for these women to call the National Enquirer and try to sell their stories. 1.00

00:41:00.960 He goes on to say he had an unwritten agreement with Trump, quote, it was an agreement amongst friends, end quote, when learning that there was a negative story about Trump.

00:41:09.920 He said the agreement was mutually beneficial, meaning it would help Trump's campaign and help sell magazines.

00:41:16.980 Pecker testified that he didn't want anyone to know about the agreement, telling editors to keep this as quiet as possible.

00:41:23.260 I do think the timing of that is rather interesting that the meeting was August of 2015.

00:41:27.480 August 6th, 2015 was the presidential debate, the very first of the Republican season in which I asked Trump that question about women.

00:41:35.020 And that became, you know, a lot that that narrative was interjected into the campaign in a very visible way.

00:41:43.360 And then these two sat down and I'm sure did come up with a deal where his friend would take care of him.

00:41:48.580 I mean, if I were friends with David Pecker and I were running for president, I'm sure I'd go to him and be like, please bury the negative stories about me.

00:41:56.460 You know, they're like, I'll tell you a story.

00:41:58.540 Back when I left NBC or right around there, the Daily Mail, which I now love, but they were writing terrible pieces about me all the time.

00:42:06.440 And a friend of mine knew somebody who knew somebody who was like running the Daily Mail or owned the Daily Mail.

00:42:11.300 I can't remember. They said, you know, I can arrange a meeting for you with this person and you can basically ask for a pardon.

00:42:18.240 You know, you can beg for them to stop hitting you.

00:42:21.180 And I was like, I'm not going to do that. It's the media. This is what we do.

00:42:25.440 Like they're allowed to write hit pieces about me. It doesn't have to be pleasant for me, but that's just, you know, that's life.

00:42:31.080 Kind of have to suck it up. Not everybody makes that choice.

00:42:33.980 But like, would that have been improper if I had been somehow running for office?

00:42:38.800 I have a connection. I say, yo, could you please lay off?

00:42:41.760 No. So this is not actually that untoward.

00:42:45.180 There's nothing wrong with Trump using a personal connection who runs a national tabloid to say, please don't let these women come forward and say these things about me.

00:42:52.580 Which, for the record, Trump is denying are true.

00:42:55.160 He is denying.

00:42:55.960 I know kind of a lot of people think he just did it, but for now, he's denying that it even happened.

00:43:01.580 There's nothing nefarious about it.

00:43:04.200 You can talk about what's whether it's right in the lane of morality, but that's not what we're here to adjudicate.

00:43:10.160 OK, this brings me to Rachel Maddow.

00:43:14.100 And she got into on her show last night, her one hour a week for which she gets 30 million bucks.

00:43:18.780 Um, this scheme of catch and kill, because it wasn't just Donald Trump that the National Enquirer did this for or other publications did this for.

00:43:30.500 But she winds up landing this in a different place than I will.

00:43:34.340 Here's thought six.

00:43:36.740 Today, when David Pecker was on the stand, he is the one who volunteered the phrase checkbook journalism.

00:43:40.940 Um, they do sometimes, they do sometimes with people other than Donald Trump, find out negative information about a person and then decide not to run it.

00:43:52.300 And why do they do that?

00:43:53.360 Because they want to have that person consent to be on their magazine covers for other reasons.

00:43:59.160 And so they want to own them.

00:44:00.580 They've done this about, about, about Cosby.

00:44:02.720 Bill Cosby, they had a bunch of bad information about him.

00:44:04.820 They did not run it in exchange for Cosby then doing exclusives with them.

00:44:07.980 They had a bunch of bad information on Arnold Schwarzenegger, did not run it in exchange for Schwarzenegger doing a bunch of stuff with them.

00:44:14.100 The difference is, when they did it with Donald Trump, they only did it when it came to the election.

00:44:19.860 Prosecutors said today in their opening statement they had never before paid anybody for any information related to Donald Trump.

00:44:26.140 It was to help Donald Trump win the election.

00:44:28.120 And that is when it became a crime.

00:44:31.900 Okay.

00:44:32.560 I just want to say,

00:44:33.520 The sanctimony is espoused on that set last night about this checkbook journalism and how these media outlets would bury stories in exchange for, you know, some sort of an exclusive or for nefarious purposes that are really not above board.

00:44:50.080 It's really rich coming from NBC News, which has been most infamous over the past five years for having the Harvey Weinstein story. 0.87

00:45:01.960 They knew he was raping women and sexually assaulting women. 0.50

00:45:07.060 They had allegation after allegation through Ronan Farrow. 0.79

00:45:10.520 And they spiked it and let Ronan Farrow walk out the door with what would be a Pulitzer Prize winning story on Harvey because, according to Ronan Farrow, they didn't want Harvey to unleash on Matt Lauer, who they had reason to believe was hurting women inside of the NBC building, had been sexually harassing or assaulting women within their own roof.

00:45:39.620 And so they allowed effectively, in my opinion, Harvey Weinstein's rapes to keep going so that Matt Lauer's sexual harassment and assaults could keep going.

00:45:52.260 That was the deal they struck, which does not give her the moral high ground to come out there and condemn Trump saying, could you please bury the porn stars allegation against me in no way, shape or form alleged to be non consensual.

00:46:09.620 That's the underlying sickness behind every discussion NBC's having about this.

00:46:17.000 And only those of us with a memory that's longer than two minutes understand how wrong it is.

00:46:23.380 I'll start with you on it, Mike, for NBC to be playing moral arbiter here on so-called checkbook journalism.

00:46:31.300 You're exactly right.

00:46:32.460 And they're just purely partisan operatives on NBC, particularly on MSNBC.

00:46:39.300 Rachel Maddow's one of the worst. 0.76

00:46:41.040 They're so intellectually dishonest about this. 0.93

00:46:44.100 They're so partisan. 0.52

00:46:45.780 And for them to pretend like that, you know, they're the moral crusaders here is just absolutely laughable.

00:46:51.120 All right.

00:46:53.280 And it's not, I'm not going to go to Dave because he goes on MSNBC and I don't want to put you in the uncomfortable position of criticizing a network that is good to you.

00:46:59.800 I understand that's not appropriate, but Mike's good.

00:47:03.340 Here's Ronan when his book Catch and Kill hit publicly explaining some of this.

00:47:08.880 Watch.

00:47:09.920 They ordered a hard stop to reporting.

00:47:11.860 They told me and a producer working on this that we should not take a single call.

00:47:15.380 They told us to cancel interviews.

00:47:17.020 The question for years has been why?

00:47:19.080 I mean, you lay out the suggestion that Harvey Weinstein was blackmailing NBC News.

00:47:24.240 Multiple sources do say that.

00:47:25.800 And the way in which that's framed is very careful.

00:47:27.720 All of NBC's denials are in this book.

00:47:30.020 We fact checked for many hours with them.

00:47:31.980 That said, it is indisputable based on the evidence in this book that there was a chain of secret settlements at this company that were covered up with victims of harassment and assault.

00:47:41.080 Some of them about Lauer, some about others in the company.

00:47:43.560 This was a pattern.

00:47:44.720 It was concealed from journalists there.

00:47:46.220 Why didn't they allow it because they were afraid information about Matt Lauer was going to get out?

00:47:49.720 That is what the extensive conversations, transcripts, and documents presented in this book suggest.

00:47:54.660 It's really unbelievable to sit them, the very network.

00:48:01.160 I mean, it's the same thing.

00:48:02.300 NBC and MSNBC have the same top executives at the top level.

00:48:06.100 And to sit there and try to sell to us that what we're seeing with Trump is criminal after what they did.

00:48:14.680 And no one was hurt in the Trump allegations.

00:48:17.600 He had allegedly a consensual affair that someone threatened him with exposure of, and he paid her money to go away.

00:48:24.380 In their situation, sexual assaults and rapes and allegations were happening in both lanes, the Harvey Lane and the Matt Lauer Lane.

00:48:33.600 I understand the denials, as they point out.

00:48:35.360 Harvey denied it.

00:48:35.980 He's been convicted.

00:48:37.040 Lauer denies it, too.

00:48:38.020 NBC denies Ronan's allegations.

00:48:40.000 But it's rich, Mike.

00:48:41.180 It's perfectly rich.

00:48:42.440 These are the people we're relying on for honest coverage on this case.

00:48:45.520 I'll give you the last word.

00:48:46.300 I just say I dealt with Ronan Farrell during the Kavanaugh confirmation, and he came at me because, you know, I don't think I think he was going to write a hit piece on me on how I handled it.

00:48:56.460 And I actually talked to him and he gave me a very, you know, he wrote a very fair story.

00:49:00.680 You know, it wasn't a it was certainly not a warm and fuzzy story, but it was a fair story.

00:49:04.340 So I do respect him as a journalist.

00:49:07.100 And it's not just Ronan.

00:49:08.340 Rich McHugh, his producer, backed him up.

00:49:10.160 OK, guys, we'll be right back.

00:49:11.440 Another word on NBC before we leave the subject.

00:49:18.140 There's another woman over there named Alex Wagner, who was on the same panel making a similar point. 0.67

00:49:23.860 I'll stick with you on this, Mike, about how they're trying to, quote, normalize NDAs, nondisclosure agreements in this abominable Trump courtroom.

00:49:36.260 All right.

00:49:36.740 Take a listen to her.

00:49:37.500 Number one, for all journalism students out there, checkbook journalism, not a thing.

00:49:42.840 It is not a thing.

00:49:43.840 This strategy from Trump's team, at least as I understood it today, seems to be to normalize outlandish things, which is the arguing that NDAs are just a common practice, that lots of wealthy people do them.

00:49:54.780 This is nothing abnormal.

00:49:56.380 Everybody has NDAs.

00:49:57.640 You guys may not have heard about them before, but it happens.

00:50:00.640 This is the thing that is done.

00:50:02.020 Just because Trump had a bunch of people signing NDAs doesn't mean there's anything that's suspect about that. 0.99

00:50:06.880 Catch and kill.

00:50:08.040 It happens all the time. 0.98

00:50:09.320 There's nothing illegal about this scheme.

00:50:11.260 This sort of thing happens all the time.

00:50:13.100 This is from Todd Blanche's mouth to the jury.

00:50:16.040 And then my favorite, there is nothing wrong with trying to influence an election.

00:50:20.600 It's called democracy.

00:50:22.280 That is not how the world works.

00:50:24.440 There is so much to dissect there, Mike.

00:50:27.640 I mean, NDAs.

00:50:29.080 NBC is the king of NDAs, okay?

00:50:32.700 Somebody in this discussion right here might have been forced to sign one.

00:50:37.280 I have a list of women that's longer than Santa's scroll who have been forced to sign NDAs by NBC News and MSNBC, Alex. 1.00

00:50:47.260 So you might want to do your homework before you bash them as a tool that's only used by people who are on criminal trial.

00:50:55.420 Although, on second thought, maybe NBC will be headed there someday and her remarks will prove true.

00:51:00.980 But that's right.

00:51:02.200 And the checkbook journal, like, this is not how journalism is done.

00:51:06.820 As I point out, this is how NBC News handled journalism when it came to its Pulitzer Prize winning story that it let walk out the door and go to the New Yorker.

00:51:16.140 And not just that, Mike, but look at the number of stories that were manipulated, suppressed, buried, or promoted during the 2020 election.

00:51:26.680 We could go back to 16-2 for Hillary, but let's just stick with 2020 when it came to Trump v. Biden. 1.00

00:51:33.300 To sell to a jury that only the Republican did this evil thing of manipulating the media is going to be very tough.

00:51:43.340 Yeah, I mean, I was a real lawyer in Colorado for 10 years before I got dragged back into D.C. in the political scene.

00:51:51.240 And I'll tell you, NDAs, nondisclosure agreements, these payments, they happen every day in the legal practice.

00:51:58.700 And to say that Trump is trying to normalize them shows that this young journalist is absolutely clueless and sanctimonious or she's lying.

00:52:08.980 So it's one of the two, because it's routine in the practice of law and the practice of politics and the practice of journalism that you use nondisclosure agreements and you have to make payments.

00:52:20.240 You have to make you have to settle nuisance claims from time to time, actually quite frequently if you're a big target.

00:52:27.180 You know, you can call it hush money, but it's the settlement of a nuisance claim with a nondisclosure agreement.

00:52:32.720 The other thing is, Dave, you know, the New York Post reporting on the Hunter Biden laptop was universally suppressed by the mainstream media.

00:52:44.820 And we saw just two weeks ago an expose by an NPR insider saying they were intentionally keeping that out of the news at NPR because they knew that it would help Trump.

00:52:57.340 And they openly said, no, this will help Trump.

00:53:00.880 OK, no cash exchanged hands, but it's in principle the same exact thing.

00:53:07.760 A friendly media outlet that says, I want the election to turn out a certain way and shapes its coverage accordingly.

00:53:16.060 Well, Megan, first off, you're right. NBC is treating me very well, so I'm not going to criticize them.

00:53:21.340 But you can see why the mainstream media is critical of a publication like the National Enquirer who was actually working with Trump to try to help his election in this case.

00:53:31.580 Now, you're bringing up the New York Post story, and I think actually it's fair to bring that up because you had the press who thought this was some Russian disinformation or something that was going that was planted and they stopped it.

00:53:45.260 And in the end, we don't know exactly where it came from or what, but it's something that probably should have been out there and let the people decide.

00:53:53.400 But, yeah, I hear what came from.

00:53:56.000 It came from Hunter to a legally blind repairman.

00:53:59.300 Then Hunter never picked it up.

00:54:00.820 And then a legally blind repairman called Rudy Giuliani.

00:54:03.820 And by the way, the FBI had it, too, and verified that it was Hunter's.

00:54:07.700 Well, regardless, it is something I agree with you that should be out there, actually.

00:54:12.580 And as far as NBC, they're the ones who are trying to point to this National Enquirer as what you should not do.

00:54:23.100 And I agree with them because you don't engage with a presidential campaign to try to figure out a way to help them get elected and be used as a tool to buy a story and to kill it just to help a campaign.

00:54:34.200 Can I go back to one thing real quick, Megan?

00:54:36.600 I promise real quick, because you said I was doing the gummies.

00:54:39.700 But the reason why I talk about the statute of limitations issue, I just have to tell you, and Mike and I were talking off air, is because there is a provision of New York law that says that when you move away, like the White House or Florida, the statute of limitations is paused for up to five years.

00:54:54.420 So that's why I still believe that even if it's just misdemeanors, that prosecutors could still bring the case against Trump for falsification of business records.

00:55:01.980 I was not smoking the peace pipe.

00:55:06.840 I don't think that virtually anybody else accepts that.

00:55:10.500 And none of the legal experts I've been following in this believe that that would have resurrected this dead claim.

00:55:14.680 But OK, point taken.

00:55:15.940 No gummies involved.

00:55:17.780 Thank you.

00:55:18.300 I do want to let's see.

00:55:20.280 Hold on a second.

00:55:20.880 There's I want to make sure I've gotten everything here.

00:55:22.420 Oh, OK, this last question on the Trump trial.

00:55:27.700 We had the ruling yesterday morning that virtually everything Trump has ever done is going to come in against him if he gets cross-examined.

00:55:34.520 And we've been talking about this issue in New York State in connection with my pal Arthur Idala, who represents, speaking of Harvey Weinstein, he represents Harvey Weinstein.

00:55:45.740 And he just had an argument before the New York State Court of Appeals, our highest court, saying you made it impossible for him to take the stand in his own defense by saying like every woman he ever, you know, interacted with or had a complaint about him was going to be allowed to take the stand against him.

00:56:03.980 And like the prior bad acts evidence would have been so overwhelming.

00:56:07.820 It would have absolutely ensured a conviction.

00:56:09.960 And the ones they even allowed, even without him testifying, was very lengthy.

00:56:14.660 It was a lengthy list.

00:56:16.000 So Trump is kind of facing the same thing where they had a hearing and they said if he takes a stand, it's going to be a lot of bad things we're going to let in.

00:56:24.780 And this is where Andy McCarthy, he had a piece on this today, the lawfare against Trump, Dave, that's already gone down is really coming back to haunt him because the judge is going to let in the Letitia James, you know, $450 million judgment against him for fraud, corporate fraud. 0.59

00:56:45.520 But the case against Weisselberg, his top financial guy who was found guilty of a criminal violation, another fraudster, the fact that he defamed E. Jean Carroll, but not the fact that he allegedly sexually assaulted her, you know, a liar. 0.99

00:57:03.180 He's a liar. 0.99

00:57:04.020 And on and on it goes. 0.98

00:57:04.980 So, like, it's almost as if the Democrats have been laying the foundation for all of this to support a criminal conviction in this flimsy case all along.

00:57:17.240 And so you tell me whether there's any chance, given the judge's ruling, all that can come in, that Trump will take the stand.

00:57:23.980 Meghan, he was never going to take the stand.

00:57:25.720 It would have been walking into a perjury trap.

00:57:28.560 He'd have embarrassing details of his relationship with Stormy Daniels.

00:57:32.060 And, yes, prior bad acts can come in up to the judge's discretion.

00:57:35.920 He allowed some, not others.

00:57:37.600 He allowed talking about the Access Hollywood tape, but not the playing of the Access Hollywood tape.

00:57:42.600 I thought he was pretty fair in his rulings.

00:57:45.100 But I think this is all for naught.

00:57:46.540 I mean, look, it's like asking me, what teams do you want to play for in the NBA?

00:57:52.200 Like, yeah, I'm never going to play in the NBA.

00:57:55.260 Donald Trump was never going to take the stand in his defense.

00:57:58.320 This is something he's done in the past.

00:57:59.720 He said, I'm going to take the stand, you know, in the E. Jean Carroll case and didn't.

00:58:03.540 I'm going to talk to Robert Mueller in the investigation and he didn't.

00:58:06.600 I'm going to take the stand in the civil fraud case and he didn't.

00:58:09.500 So that's just bluster.

00:58:10.680 He was never going to take the stand in his defense.

00:58:13.500 He took it in the second E. Jean case.

00:58:15.660 That was one he did take it in.

00:58:18.040 I don't think you should take the stand at all, Mike.

00:58:20.060 Do you?

00:58:21.240 I wouldn't in this case.

00:58:23.380 I mean, I would say that Trump is different from other criminal defendants.

00:58:26.340 So if you're a criminal defense attorney, you generally would advise most of your clients

00:58:30.740 not to take the stand.

00:58:31.720 I would say that with President Trump in some of these matters that, you know, he should

00:58:35.480 be out there, maybe not taking the stand, but he should be out there making public statements

00:58:39.180 to defend himself against this lawfare and election interference.

00:58:42.660 But I would I would he I don't think he should take the stand.

00:58:45.320 In this case, there's little upside and there's a lot of downside as you just laid out.

00:58:49.520 And this process is so clearly rigged against them.

00:58:52.520 Do not give them any rope to hang you.

00:58:55.460 OK, one other story.

00:58:58.280 And then I want to get to these college protests.

00:59:00.020 But before we get to the college protests, we got to talk about Alec Baldwin.

00:59:03.480 Did you guys see this viral video of him?

00:59:08.300 I have to say I'm not, you know, whatever.

00:59:12.060 Alec Baldwin's got a temper and he's obviously in a lot of trouble right now out in New Mexico

00:59:16.280 because of the death of this cinematographer on his movie set.

00:59:19.060 But I am 100 percent team Alec Baldwin when it comes to what just happened to him here.

00:59:24.560 Here's the video for those of you who haven't seen it.

00:59:27.820 Alec, can you please stay free Palestine one time? 0.99

00:59:31.100 Why did you kill that lady? 1.00

00:59:33.180 You kill that lady and got no jail time? 0.95

00:59:36.120 No jail time, Alec. 1.00

00:59:38.300 No jail time, Alec.

00:59:40.440 You're putting innocent people in jail, Alec Baldwin.

00:59:43.860 Free Palestine, Alec, just one time and I'll leave you alone. 0.95

00:59:48.080 I'll leave you alone, I swear.

00:59:50.300 Just say free Palestine one time. 0.99

00:59:52.540 One time.

00:59:54.000 One time.

00:59:55.160 Call the police.

00:59:56.280 One time, Alec.

00:59:57.500 You know he's a criminal. 1.00

00:59:59.600 You know he's a fucking criminal. 1.00

01:00:01.320 Come on, Alec, just say free Palestine one time. 1.00

01:00:05.240 One time, just one time, please.

01:00:07.720 And I'll leave you alone.

01:00:09.080 Free Palestine. 1.00

01:00:09.820 Fuck Israel, fuck Zionism. 1.00

01:00:13.200 Please say it. 1.00

01:00:15.500 One time.

01:00:17.280 Could you give me one quick thing?

01:00:18.500 One time.

01:00:18.980 And then he gets her with his left hand, clearly grabs the camera or knocks it out of her hand.

01:00:28.420 And she goes by Crackhead Barney. 0.99

01:00:31.860 So Crackhead got into an altercation with him and tweeted out that this white devil assaulted me. 0.97

01:00:39.780 Dave, you're a prosecutor.

01:00:41.380 If Crackhead came to you and said, I want to file charges against Alec Baldwin for assault, what would you do?

01:00:46.440 No file.

01:00:48.520 And here's why.

01:00:49.940 She can go to police and she can fill out a complaint.

01:00:53.320 And this could be technically a battery because it's an unwanted touching.

01:00:57.760 It's a very low bar.

01:00:59.000 You have to just have probable cause.

01:01:00.720 But then it would come to my office as prosecutor.

01:01:03.700 And the question is, could I prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt?

01:01:06.980 There is not a jury in the United States that would find Alec Baldwin guilty.

01:01:10.880 When Megyn Kelly is standing up for Alec Baldwin, you know there's not a jury in the world.

01:01:16.440 That would side with Crackhead, whatever her name is. 1.00

01:01:19.860 And, you know, this shows you the problems with this pro-Hamas, pro-Palestinian movement that she's a part of.

01:01:26.180 Number one, they're the ones engaging in bullying and harassment.

01:01:28.960 You can just see it for your own eyes. 0.97

01:01:30.320 Number two, their whole philosophy is based on ignorance.

01:01:33.720 They don't know anything about what's going on in Gaza.

01:01:35.900 They just discovered Gaza just a few months ago.

01:01:39.640 This is just a trendy thing.

01:01:41.540 Yeah, it's a trendy thing for them to get on board.

01:01:43.640 And lastly, there's no self-awareness here.

01:01:45.840 I mean, she actually portrays herself as a victim.

01:01:48.160 Meanwhile, Alec Baldwin is opening the door, asking her politely to please leave.

01:01:52.020 And she's the one who thinks she's the victim.

01:01:54.460 This is why they're losing support for people who see things like this.

01:01:57.900 This is why even you, Megyn Kelly, come to the defense of Alec Baldwin, justifiably so.

01:02:03.380 Well, I have nothing against Alec Baldwin as a human.

01:02:06.640 You know, I definitely think he's got problems out there in New Mexico.

01:02:08.980 And his politics are pretty harsh.

01:02:11.060 But it's not like, you know, me defending Meghan Markle.

01:02:15.920 Like, that would be truly extraordinary.

01:02:17.700 But, you know, I'm capable of seeing Alec Baldwin fairly.

01:02:21.720 It's not like I have an inherent bias against him.

01:02:24.040 But, Mike, this is so obnoxious, right?

01:02:26.840 I think, like, what would you have done?

01:02:29.220 What would you have done, Mike Davis, if somebody came up to you in, like, a nice restaurant,

01:02:32.900 like that deli slash restaurant, and done this to you? 0.51

01:02:36.300 I loathe Hamas supporters. 0.99

01:02:38.960 I loathe anti-Semites. 0.99

01:02:40.900 And I loathe people who protest in restaurants. 0.98

01:02:43.280 And this person was all three.

01:02:45.820 So I think that Alec Baldwin showed tremendous restraint there.

01:02:50.360 He did.

01:02:51.400 I think I would have given her a comment.

01:02:53.240 I think I would have been like, I do.

01:02:54.720 I do have something I want to say.

01:02:56.020 Thank you for giving me this opportunity.

01:02:57.720 Go F yourself.

01:02:58.780 Only I would have used the actual word. 0.97

01:03:01.200 Anyway, it's infuriating.

01:03:02.900 It reminded me of the BLM protests, where they were getting in people's faces at restaurants 0.96

01:03:07.300 just trying to live their lives and, like, have a beer.

01:03:09.440 And they were like, say it.

01:03:10.660 Say BLM.

01:03:11.420 Say Black Lives Matter.

01:03:12.760 These poor people couldn't, like, continue their meal unless they said the words. 1.00

01:03:17.380 Like, hello, this is America. 0.99

01:03:19.280 Sit the F down, or I'm calling the cops. 0.97

01:03:21.560 Okay.

01:03:22.240 All right.

01:03:23.180 Whatever you call yourself. 0.97

01:03:24.980 Crackhead. 0.98

01:03:26.260 Okay, crackhead.

01:03:27.600 Anywho, I wanted to talk about what's happening on the college campuses, because the situation is 0.84

01:03:32.500 growing more insane by the day.

01:03:34.320 We've got these anti-Israel protests disrupting classes on campus after campus, and now dozens

01:03:41.000 of people are being arrested.

01:03:42.740 So finally, there is some sort of a law enforcement crackdown.

01:03:45.520 Colombia has now canceled in-person classes.

01:03:49.440 I don't know that they're going to resume before the summer.

01:03:51.780 The gates to Harvard Yard have been closed.

01:03:56.440 And at NYU, an encampment swelled to hundreds, hundreds of protesters at NYU.

01:04:02.780 Staffers were seen forming a human chain as the protesters wanted to pray.

01:04:09.100 Watch.

01:04:09.420 The school says it warned the crowd to leave, then called in the cops after the university

01:04:32.280 said it learned of reports of, quote, intimidating chants and several anti-Semitic incidents.

01:04:37.540 Shortly after 8.30 p.m., officers began making arrests.

01:04:42.060 Watch.

01:04:47.060 Look at this chaos.

01:04:48.140 People throwing things at the cops.

01:05:00.540 It's total chaos as people try to keep their little tents that they've set up around themselves.

01:05:05.480 The cops try to instill order, and they're throwing things at cops.

01:05:13.200 The whole world is watching, and your behavior's terrible.

01:05:18.080 The cops are outnumbered.

01:05:23.560 No one's complying. 0.99

01:05:25.340 They all have their little masks on, their COVID masks, because they're cowards. 0.99

01:05:28.980 Wow. 0.98

01:05:32.660 Good luck walking around New York City right now.

01:05:34.640 NYU and Columbia.

01:05:35.900 Great.

01:05:36.520 Terrific.

01:05:37.300 Good luck finding a nice college for your kid, too, by the way.

01:05:40.200 Tensions, as we've been discussing, high at Columbia.

01:05:42.320 We've been talking about that for a couple of days.

01:05:43.840 The campus gates were locked to anyone without a school ID.

01:05:48.200 But even one professor who's been a very staunch and outspoken supporter of Israel,

01:05:52.500 we've played him, shy David I, on this show before, he had his access cut off.

01:05:59.680 Watch.

01:06:05.080 He's standing at the gates.

01:06:06.300 Not just a civil right, a civil right as a Jewish person to be on campus.

01:06:11.320 I have a right as a professor, employed by the university, to be on campus.

01:06:18.520 They deactivated my court.

01:06:20.300 These are five lawsuits in happening.

01:06:22.420 But we don't want to be Jewish and public. 1.00

01:06:25.820 I just want to be Jewish and public, he said.

01:06:30.540 At Yale, police officers arrested about 45 protesters and charged them with misdemeanor

01:06:35.720 trespassing.

01:06:36.580 All were being released on promises to appear in court later.

01:06:39.740 However, some folks in the area also, of course, block traffic because they really make it

01:06:44.360 their mission to be as annoying as humanly possible.

01:06:47.960 So we've been having an ongoing debate, you guys, on what can be done about this, right?

01:06:53.000 Because free speech is available on college campuses.

01:06:56.640 And we want to make sure that we can go on the college campus and say things that are

01:07:01.420 provocative, that aren't, quote, allowed or politically correct.

01:07:05.580 Um, I certainly don't want my kid to go on a college campus and be forced to use, quote, 0.89

01:07:11.280 preferred pronouns, right?

01:07:12.900 I want my kid to be able to say what's real.

01:07:15.040 I want my kids, if they're more conservative leaning by the time they get to college, to

01:07:18.600 be able to say what they think about all these controversial issues.

01:07:21.760 It's important to protect free speech.

01:07:24.980 I am fine.

01:07:26.000 I don't agree with, but I am fine with Israel's committing genocide, right? 1.00

01:07:30.640 Like down with Netanyahu, um, those are all fine.

01:07:35.600 This is morphed into something else.

01:07:37.920 And I think you tell me, but the law to me is pretty clear.

01:07:41.940 And even the ACLU has said this, that when you morph from just saying even hateful or offensive

01:07:48.480 things into speech that is openly harassing of a targeted group or individual, you marched

01:07:57.200 yourself right out of first amendment protection.

01:07:59.380 Uh, Dave, am I right?

01:08:02.480 Yes.

01:08:03.200 Trespass is a crime and police could go in and remove the encampments inside and outside

01:08:08.580 Columbia because Columbia owns the property around there.

01:08:11.720 But apparently the president of the university won't give police the rights to do that.

01:08:15.880 So shame on these weak university administrators for enabling this.

01:08:20.500 Also assault is a crime.

01:08:22.180 Disorderly conduct is a crime.

01:08:24.480 Hate speech by itself is not necessarily a crime.

01:08:27.060 It could be protected by the first amendment.

01:08:28.760 But when you have action, um, that's a crime.

01:08:31.640 But even if it's just hate speech, just calling for, uh, the death of, well, the end of Israel,

01:08:37.340 for example, uh, at some point it becomes a violation of the university code.

01:08:41.600 Just imagine if instead of blasting Jews, they were blasting another group or they were telling

01:08:47.000 other members of a group to go back to wherever they came from.

01:08:50.660 Do you think they would last a minute on campus?

01:08:52.600 It's not a chance.

01:08:53.860 And it is just shameful that you have these weak administrators and these professors who

01:08:59.340 are part of this problem running the show.

01:09:01.900 It's like the inmates running the asylum.

01:09:03.280 And at some point, perhaps the governor needs to call out the national guard or the police

01:09:08.060 need to start being a little, uh, tougher on what's going on out there.

01:09:12.260 Yeah, that's, I don't understand why there's not actual law and order being imposed on these

01:09:16.120 people because we aren't out of the free speech realm.

01:09:19.340 Mike, you can't, there cannot be targeted harassment of a specific group that creates what is in

01:09:27.340 essence, a hostile work environment or hostile learning environment for a vulnerable group

01:09:31.880 or a protected class.

01:09:33.100 You can't do that.

01:09:34.380 So when I go on a college campus, if I see a trans person or, you know, a man pretending 1.00

01:09:39.820 he's a woman, I can say, you're a man.

01:09:43.160 It's a, he stay out of the women's restroom. 1.00

01:09:45.740 And I should be allowed to do that.

01:09:47.860 But if I get a group together and we see a trans person go by, or we see like a trans, 0.98

01:09:52.960 you know, group sitting there having a meeting and we start chanting mean things about them,

01:09:57.780 like trans people should be attacked or down with the trans people. 1.00

01:10:02.320 They're evil. 1.00

01:10:03.260 We could get in trouble.

01:10:04.280 Like you targeted harassment can take you out of the free speech, her, uh, protection.

01:10:10.060 It takes a lot, thankfully, but they're there.

01:10:12.920 They're there in these protest videos.

01:10:14.400 What do you think?

01:10:14.960 Yeah, I mean, it's the Brandenburg test from the Supreme Court, the, the eminent lawlessness.

01:10:19.600 And when you are threatening or actually perpetuating violence against anyone, particularly a religious

01:10:27.280 minority, that's clearly a violation of many different state, local, federal laws.

01:10:33.520 And where is the Biden Justice Department?

01:10:36.060 Where is the Civil Rights Division in the Biden Justice Department?

01:10:39.320 Where is the Biden Justice Department, Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights?

01:10:44.240 They open investigations into multiple schools.

01:10:48.420 All of them are mostly Ivy League schools.

01:10:52.740 Mary Catherine Han was tweeting today about how she feels really good about how she's indoctrinating her children and love for SEC schools.

01:10:58.300 Um, but it's mostly Ivies, right? 0.80

01:11:01.440 So there's a, because people make complaints and then the Civil Rights Division has to open an investigation.

01:11:05.780 So they've done that, but nothing's been done, Mike.

01:11:07.560 Where's the, where are the results?

01:11:08.620 It's, it's all well and fine to investigate what's happening to protect the kids.

01:11:12.060 And it's not just the civil side.

01:11:14.080 It's not just a Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that the Department of Education would investigate.

01:11:21.100 It's also, there are criminal laws.

01:11:23.520 There are federal civil rights laws that deal with this.

01:11:26.780 There are state civil rights laws that deal with this.

01:11:29.240 There are state assault and battery laws.

01:11:31.480 There's state trespassing laws that Dave's talking about.

01:11:34.420 Maybe Alvin Bragg shouldn't have the Manhattan DA's office so diverted to getting Trump based upon time-barred misdemeanors at best

01:11:44.220 and actually using law enforcement resources in New York City to go after these Hamas supporters, 0.98

01:11:51.360 this, this third world trash who are terrorizing Jewish students on these campuses and Jewish professors. 1.00

01:11:58.340 This is unacceptable what they're doing. 0.97

01:12:00.740 And when the Trump 47 Justice Department comes back in after January 20th, 2025,

01:12:06.980 I think that there will be more action taken.

01:12:09.800 I think that these, these students should have their visas revoked if they're openly supporting a Hamas, a terrorist organization.

01:12:17.340 If they are here on visas as non, non-students, they should be deported. 1.00

01:12:22.660 They should be sent home.

01:12:23.520 And if they've been naturalized as citizens and they lied on their citizen application about being a Hamas supporter,

01:12:30.900 they need to be denaturalized.

01:12:32.140 They need to be sent home.

01:12:34.180 Yes.

01:12:34.700 Well, we look forward to that day, Mike.

01:12:36.560 And whomever could be in charge of the DOJ when, when and if that happens, we'll find out.

01:12:42.560 Guys, such a great discussion.

01:12:44.140 Thank you so much.

01:12:44.980 And to be continued.

01:12:47.480 Thank you, Megan.

01:12:49.040 Okay.

01:12:49.240 When we come back, do you guys remember this story of Tickle versus Giggle, this Australian website that was for women?

01:12:55.300 And then a man posing as a woman got identified as a fake woman.

01:12:59.260 And he sued because he so desperately wanted to be in the women's online space. 0.77

01:13:04.040 Well, we have the creator of that website, Sal Grover.

01:13:07.280 Remember, we discussed her with Adam Carolla.

01:13:09.580 Well, she's here.

01:13:10.660 And it's next.

01:13:11.620 Don't go away.

01:13:12.180 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM.

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01:14:03.600 That's SiriusXM.com slash MKShow and get three months free.

01:14:09.620 Offer details apply.

01:14:15.900 Next, we are joined by two incredible women who are involved in a court case in Australia that has gained international attention as it relates to the essential fight for women's rights.

01:14:25.700 Sal Grover is an entrepreneur and the founder of the women-only app, Giggle. 1.00

01:14:31.940 She's facing a lawsuit from a man for barring him from the app as, quote, she claims she is now a woman.

01:14:42.820 See, this is the problem.

01:14:43.740 They make you use their language. 1.00

01:14:45.200 It's a man claiming he is a woman and therefore demanding access to this female-only space.

01:14:50.980 You see the problem.

01:14:51.640 Sal is joined today by one of her lawyers, Catherine Deaves, who is representing her in this landmark legal battle on which we are still awaiting a ruling.

01:15:01.740 Sal and Catherine, welcome to the show.

01:15:04.860 Thank you so much for having us.

01:15:07.400 Great to see you, Megan.

01:15:08.280 The pleasure is mine.

01:15:09.380 I know it must be like 3.30 in the morning over there right now.

01:15:12.300 So God bless you.

01:15:13.820 It's very hard doing hits with my Aussie friends.

01:15:16.160 So I am grateful to you.

01:15:17.760 And you look awesome.

01:15:18.700 So, Sal, you started this website, just a quick primer for our audience in the background.

01:15:23.940 You started this website for women-only.

01:15:26.160 Why?

01:15:26.840 So I had actually been in Hollywood as a screenwriter for almost 10 years.

01:15:32.000 And this was like in the pre-me-to world.

01:15:34.960 And it was as horrible as everyone says it is.

01:15:39.440 And I had experienced all of that.

01:15:40.900 And I came back to Australia.

01:15:43.440 And I was sort of a shell of a person.

01:15:44.800 And I went into therapy just to sort of recover from it and get the tools to sort of move on with my life.

01:15:50.520 And it was my therapist who said, you need to have a strong female support network in your life. 1.00

01:15:56.480 And my mom and I were just talking about it.

01:15:58.240 And it was my mom who had the idea and said, why don't we create an app where women can connect to get emotional support, to find roommates? 1.00

01:16:06.000 And we had lesbian dating on there. 1.00

01:16:08.140 Just basically, we put any reason why a woman would need like something on the Internet just to exist in. 0.99

01:16:15.840 And so, yeah, so we developed it.

01:16:18.680 And just before we were about to launch, trans activists found us and changed my life, basically. 0.99

01:16:24.840 Mm-hmm.

01:16:26.300 So this man who goes by the name Roxanne Tickle claimed that he had a right to be on this women's-only site.

01:16:35.800 Yeah.

01:16:36.820 Roxanne, you really got to work on it.

01:16:39.200 Like, you have the facial recognition software that will show if a man is on there.

01:16:45.220 I mean, eyes would also work in this particular person's case.

01:16:49.240 He's not even making an effort to look like a woman, and yet he wants to just demand access to our spaces by saying he is one. 0.61

01:16:57.300 So you somehow sniffed it out and said, no, when I said this is for women only, it's really for women only.

01:17:05.880 And then he sued you.

01:17:08.580 So what's the basis for his lawsuit?

01:17:12.680 Yeah, so basically what happened, I don't actually remember kicking him off,

01:17:16.280 because thousands upon thousands of men would try to get on the platform pretty much every day.

01:17:22.000 And sometimes they would get through our gatekeeping system.

01:17:25.360 So it wasn't an event removing him.

01:17:28.100 It would have just been another day at the office, like removing another man.

01:17:31.980 And I thought nothing of it.

01:17:34.640 And then he actually called and texted my phone, which was when he sort of became a person in my life,

01:17:40.700 because no other user, potential user, ex-user of the platform had ever called my or contacted me via phone.

01:17:47.600 It wasn't company policy.

01:17:49.200 And it really scared me.

01:17:50.680 And I called my dad and I said, like, this guy who has been blocked from Giggle has called my phone.

01:17:55.620 And he said, just, like, block his phone number and don't tell your mother, because my mom sees all the death threats and the abuse that women receive for speaking out about this. 0.69

01:18:05.760 So I did that.

01:18:06.880 I just blocked him.

01:18:07.520 And I just sort of tried to block it out of my mind because it did freak me out.

01:18:10.140 And then about two months later, I got an Australian Human Rights Commission complaint for gender identity discrimination.

01:18:16.780 And that's when I had to get a legal team together.

01:18:21.560 And basically how the Australian Human Rights Commission works is you can settle it.

01:18:27.860 Basically, you go to conciliation.

01:18:29.240 But the conditions to settle it before it would escalate to federal court was I would have to agree to let him on,

01:18:35.720 agree to let all men who claim to be women on the platform and go to sex and gender education, which could only be re-education.

01:18:44.640 And I said, no, I wasn't willing to do any of that.

01:18:48.280 And so the Australian Human Rights Commission advised him that he could file in federal court if he wanted to.

01:18:55.160 And he did.

01:18:57.120 So, Catherine, that's where you come in.

01:18:59.440 You're representing Sal and you've had your own history in dealing with this issue where you receive blowback for saying what we all know is true.

01:19:08.280 Men don't belong in women's sports and standing up for the actual differences between men and women. 0.86

01:19:15.060 So you were probably not surprised that this guy was causing trouble for Sal.

01:19:21.080 How did you like your odds when she came to you of Sal's in this case?

01:19:26.320 Well, this conflict was set up in Australian law back in 2013, and it is something that I had been researching.

01:19:34.720 I came to law later in life and I had been looking at this conflict that had been created in our Sex Discrimination Act way back, would have been about 2018.

01:19:45.460 And what happened was our first female Prime Minister altered the Sex Discrimination Act, which deals with discrimination against women and enables them to have equal opportunities in public life. 0.99

01:20:00.480 And gender identity, sexual orientation and intersex were glommed on in 2013.

01:20:07.880 And it sets up this conflict.

01:20:10.220 So we knew that at some point there was going to be a case that was going to be brought in the federal court because this raises constitutional questions that are going to have to go to the high court to be settled.

01:20:22.540 So we knew it was just a matter of time.

01:20:24.620 So I'd known Sal through her advocacy around women's sex-based rights.

01:20:30.460 She knew of me.

01:20:31.900 So when it escalated to federal court, I got the call.

01:20:35.960 And here we are.

01:20:37.880 And I've heard you in other interviews, Catherine, speak so eloquently about why we need women's spaces.

01:20:44.900 And I've heard you both say, and I love, because we do.

01:20:49.240 We don't have to explain it to you.

01:20:52.360 Like, we want them and we're entitled to them.

01:20:54.320 And that's the end of the story.

01:20:55.080 But I do love it when you take the next step and explain just why they are so important and why, even though we might not run around articulating it every day, we know on an inherent level that we need them.

01:21:10.340 So with respect to women's spaces, I mean, Sal has a daughter.

01:21:16.140 I have three little girls and women should be entitled to dignity, privacy and safety, particularly when they are vulnerable, when they go out into the public sphere.

01:21:28.060 And, I mean, Sal has articulated this argument as well.

01:21:31.860 But women should not have to rely on the fact that they are traumatised, that they have religious or cultural restrictions, that they have suffered male violence, that they are women who maybe are ashamed of their bodies and may be overweight, postpartum, dealing with things.

01:21:48.820 You know, as women, we have to deal with things that men simply do not understand.

01:21:54.180 And it is right and proper for us to have male-free spaces when we go out into public, if we're using change rooms, if we're using toilets, if we're breastfeeding our children, and enable for us to participate fully in public life, we need to be able to access those spaces.

01:22:12.980 I mean, years ago, they had what they called the urinary leash, which was a woman could only leave her home.

01:22:19.880 The distance that she could leave her home was only as far as she could manage to hold on before she needed to go to the toilet again. 0.54

01:22:26.940 So when we look at losing our, yeah, when we didn't have public toilets, I mean, we've only had public toilets, women, for around 120 years.

01:22:37.220 And when they first started providing them over in Europe, you know, the men were burning them down and crashing their, crashing their horse and carts into them and so forth.

01:22:49.360 So women's worlds were very restricted because if you couldn't go to your mother's house or your friend's house or somewhere where you could actually use the facilities, you couldn't travel very far. 1.00

01:22:58.520 So it is absolutely critical for women to have these spaces. 1.00

01:23:02.440 And we know, like with respect to women in the third world, accessing education, having single sex provision is absolutely critical to girls' attendance at school, in refugee camps.

01:23:14.720 We know that sexual assault is off the charts and it's absolutely critical for women to have safe provision.

01:23:20.580 So I know it's very, it's very basic and people are very denigrating of, you know, the toilet argument, but it is absolutely critical if women are able to get out there in the world and participate fully.

01:23:35.080 I, you know, I keep thinking of this incident I had when I was pregnant with my first child and, you know, how it is where like you feel the baby moving and that's your daily reminder.

01:23:44.520 He's doing okay in there and it's a comfort to a pregnant mother.

01:23:47.620 And there was one day in which he hadn't moved and I was starting to get worried about him and I, I was working and I kind of let some time go by and finally I called my OB and she was way more concerned than I expected.

01:23:59.980 And she said, I was at the Marriott about to do an interview, uh, for my job.

01:24:04.200 And she said, you need to get into a women's room in the Marriott. 1.00

01:24:08.340 You need to have a drink of orange juice and you need to lie down on the floor and tell me if he's moving.

01:24:13.540 And I remember going in there and I'm, I'm in this Marriott bathroom with the cold floor and, uh, I go in there and I, I did it and I was scared because my first child, you know, thank God he was okay.

01:24:26.580 He started moving.

01:24:27.520 He fired right up and there were other women in there and we were kind of looking at each other and they were sweet and they were asking if I was okay.

01:24:33.420 And you felt just the sisterhood, that's all I cannot imagine if one of these men, if this guy, Roxanne had been in there looking at me, having an experience he will never have nor ever be able to relate to, it would have changed the entire dynamic.

01:24:53.140 That's just one example that any, I'm sure every woman has got many that they could point to, but you know what they say, Sal, I've heard you respond to this.

01:25:01.700 And I, I agree with you, but they say there aren't that many.

01:25:06.360 So like, what are you complaining about?

01:25:07.740 The numbers are low and just be kind.

01:25:11.080 Would you just, just be kind?

01:25:14.740 Yeah, we get that.

01:25:16.240 Um, just be kind comment all the time.

01:25:18.640 Um, yeah, it's not kind to ask women or demand women, see men as women or to give up all of our rights, to give up our spaces, to give up our language.

01:25:27.620 That's not kindness.

01:25:28.940 So if you want to have a conversation about being kind, that's actually the first hurdle you're going to have to get over is that there is going to have to be kindness to women as well.

01:25:39.460 This is not a one way street.

01:25:41.500 I also actually don't think it's kind to tell men who are under the delusion that they are women, that it's true. 0.99

01:25:49.140 I think it's actually kindness to tell them the truth.

01:25:51.140 And so even when we're talking about like the, the female only spaces, like as Kath was saying, like these are necessary, this is a kindness to women.

01:26:01.640 And we are constantly being like forced to relive like these traumatic experiences that we've had to justify them.

01:26:09.580 It's like, no, we want them.

01:26:11.980 And furthermore, these people, I don't even think are like negating the necessity of female only spaces necessarily.

01:26:18.920 They're just trying to get us to force, like to get us to see these men as women. 1.00

01:26:22.680 It's like, so we are allowed these spaces so long as these delusional men are allowed in them.

01:26:28.500 It's like, no, you have, they could be just one in the world, one man who thinks he's a woman in the world.

01:26:33.400 But the moment he's in that female only space, it's no longer a female only space. 0.71

01:26:36.840 He's destroyed it.

01:26:38.100 So it doesn't, it doesn't actually really matter how many there are.

01:26:41.140 There's actually quite a lot.

01:26:42.340 And so it's concerning of how increasingly, how many men are claiming to be women.

01:26:47.620 But, you know, there are like 4 billion women on the world, surely in the world, surely we count for something. 1.00

01:26:55.580 Yeah, that's right.

01:26:56.460 We, this is more and more the argument I hear them going to.

01:26:58.920 First, we were told, Catherine, this isn't happening.

01:27:01.700 You're making this up, you know, show me the incident in which a woman has been accosted or hurt in any way in a bathroom or a locker room.

01:27:08.800 And now that's starting to happen more and more.

01:27:10.600 And now we're hearing the argument in sports.

01:27:13.820 Oh, you know, there are X number of trans athletes in women's sports, and there are millions of women playing sports. 1.00

01:27:21.640 And therefore, the ratio is just so small.

01:27:24.060 This is, this is a nothing.

01:27:25.980 And, you know, I've got a lot of thoughts on that.

01:27:28.460 But I wonder, as somebody who's actually in the arena fighting these fights all the time, what you think of that argument.

01:27:33.140 Well, you only have to have one male there to displace a great number of women. 1.00

01:27:40.260 So if you have a race with a thousand women in it, and he comes first, there's a thousand women that have been affected.

01:27:46.860 So I think it's disingenuous to say, oh, there's just a few of them.

01:27:51.580 And I mean, for example, just yesterday here in Sydney, there is a women's soccer competition.

01:27:58.380 And there was what was formerly a lesbian group called the Flying Bats.

01:28:05.980 But now there are five men who pretend to be women on that team.

01:28:09.340 And last night, they beat the women 12-0 in a soccer match.

01:28:13.640 12-0.

01:28:14.320 So once you have these men in there, as Sal pointed out, it's no longer women only.

01:28:21.160 And also the amount of damage that they can do to a competition, because we hear that women self-exclude, the message that it sends to our little girls. 1.00

01:28:30.860 I mean, I've got three little girls who play sport, and they see a man standing up there on the podium.

01:28:36.280 And not even, you know, for example, you take Laurel Hubbard.

01:28:39.640 He was 40.

01:28:41.240 He was heavily overweight.

01:28:42.500 He was competing against women less than half his age. 0.84

01:28:46.360 He was not a very good weightlifter to begin with.

01:28:50.220 And no matter the sacrifices that they make, no matter how hard they train, no matter how athletically gifted they are, you can have a quite ordinary, aged-out male athlete come in and take their rightful place, take the women's rightful place on the podium.

01:29:07.760 So we're also sending this message to little girls of learned helplessness, that no matter what they do, a man's feelings will always be more important than their right to fairness.

01:29:16.520 And I think that is an absolute betrayal of young women and girls to be teaching them that message.

01:29:22.500 Yes.

01:29:52.500 And so, I think that's a great question, Sal, of all the things we learn as women from birth and that we, most of us, are taught by our moms and dads.

01:30:00.440 You know, if you have that instinct in the back of your head, go off, like, I might not be safe.

01:30:05.620 But they don't tell you to suppress it.

01:30:08.500 They tell you it's a gift.

01:30:10.440 Yeah, I mean, it's one of the most evil parts of gender ideology is that it is telling women to ignore our instincts and our boundaries. 1.00

01:30:23.660 It's part of why I don't think this is completely an accident that sort of Me Too, this sort of grassroots movement of women to have boundaries, was replaced by a movement where any woman who has boundaries is a bigot.

01:30:36.860 But I think this, I don't think this is an accident.

01:30:39.540 I really do think that this was almost by design where someone found a great opportunity to just come in and swoop in and take it away and put women in a worse position than we were five or six years ago.

01:30:52.400 You know, it is actually kind of impossible to ignore your instincts.

01:30:57.520 Like, human beings have actually evolved to be able to tell the difference between males and females.

01:31:03.140 It's just, babies can do it. 0.71

01:31:04.840 Like, it's a really necessary skill.

01:31:07.240 So when you see a man, you just see a man. 0.92

01:31:10.980 Like, you have an involuntary reaction to that, especially if he is in a place where he shouldn't be, slash, he's not welcome.

01:31:18.640 Like, that was one of the things, like, in the Tickle V Giggle case.

01:31:22.400 It's like, I just saw a picture of a man and acted accordingly.

01:31:26.880 And I'm being taken to federal court for that.

01:31:29.280 And the Australian Human Rights Commission is against me.

01:31:32.420 And it's always been my position on it is I have human rights, too, as does, by extension, every other woman and every other man in the country and the world.

01:31:42.820 I think men should be able to see a man and say that's a man or that's a woman, if that's a woman, as well.

01:31:48.640 Like, this, it's affecting us all in the most negative way.

01:31:53.360 I can't think of one good thing that gender ideology is actually bringing to the world. 1.00

01:31:57.300 Not one.

01:31:57.940 And I've looked for four years.

01:32:00.000 The same.

01:32:00.760 And so if this ruling goes against you, this could have serious implications for all women in Australia.

01:32:08.720 What what will happen if it goes against you?

01:32:13.520 So if it goes against me in federal court and I'm basically so I'm found guilty of either direct or indirect discrimination, I will appeal it to the high court.

01:32:23.960 I've always had that position from when it was in the Australian Human Rights Commission days.

01:32:28.700 I mean, I'm in this fight now.

01:32:31.200 I'm not going to sort of stop the marathon halfway through.

01:32:35.440 So we will get a verdict.

01:32:36.800 We had the hearing a week and a half ago, two weeks ago.

01:32:39.740 So we'll get the verdict in the next three to six months.

01:32:42.560 And then, yeah, if we lose, we then appeal to the high court.

01:32:48.300 One of the things with that for the federal court, we had to raise five hundred thousand dollars to be able to say that a man is not a woman.

01:32:56.200 If it goes to the high court, it will be at least another five hundred thousand dollars.

01:33:00.180 So I'm basically looking at a million dollars to be able to fight for the right to say that a man is not a woman. 0.88

01:33:08.360 Are you getting donations?

01:33:09.920 Are your fellow Aussie women supporting you?

01:33:14.300 It's been the kindness and generosity of strangers all around the world.

01:33:19.020 Actually, it's been amazing.

01:33:20.060 I went to the UK to do some interviews about about six weeks ago, because in Australia, there is a total censorship on this issue.

01:33:30.200 We've broken it a little bit in the last few weeks.

01:33:32.340 But prior to the hearing, there was a total censorship.

01:33:36.020 No one in Australian media would talk to me about the case.

01:33:39.540 And it really bothered me in part because the case was allowed to happen because the judge deemed it in the public interest.

01:33:45.640 And he's correct. It is in the public interest.

01:33:47.840 But then the fourth estate was just not giving it any airtime.

01:33:51.700 And I was like, I need people to know about this.

01:33:54.640 This is really important because while it might just seem like, oh, a case about a guy just wanting to get on an app, it's actually not.

01:34:01.980 It's about women's rights on a whole and our Sex Discrimination Act and our Sex Discrimination Act is linked to women's rights all around the world because of CEDAW, this International Bill of Rights, which we are defending because it is a document for biological females that is being abused by men who claim to be women and the organizations who support them. 0.52

01:34:26.280 But this is going to have national implications if you lose at the high court.

01:34:33.460 I understand you'll appeal, but that's, I mean, you tell me, Catherine, as the lawyer, if the high court rules against you and rules that telling a man based on his biological sex that he can't join a woman's group or a woman's web suit, if that's gender identity discrimination, which is not at all what she's thinking about.

01:34:53.900 She's thinking about his biological sex, then that will be applied everywhere.

01:34:59.820 I mean, this could be the thing that actually makes it, right, unlawful for women to have any spaces anywhere in Australia.

01:35:08.100 That's right.

01:35:08.960 So should this end up in the high court and Sal has an unfavorable outcome, it will mean that biological sex no longer exists in federal law in Australia.

01:35:18.620 It's been superseded by gender identity.

01:35:21.220 This is the what is a woman case. 0.72

01:35:24.400 It is what is the meaning of the word woman within the United Nations Convention for the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. 0.52

01:35:33.140 So within the International Human Rights Canon of Law, there are nine conventions, and this is the one that pertains to women and girls.

01:35:40.440 And this is based on their biological sex.

01:35:44.940 This convention gives rights to women because it acknowledges that women have historically been discriminated against.

01:35:53.960 They suffer violence because of our sex bodies, because we, you know, men are bigger, faster, taller, stronger.

01:36:01.940 It acknowledges that women have not been able to participate fully by being able to vote or have mortgages or be educated or choose who they marry.

01:36:10.260 So this is absolutely predicated on our biological sex.

01:36:15.320 And if the meaning of the word woman within CEDAW now includes men, it has completely upended its purpose and objective.

01:36:23.460 So for any country that's a signatory to this convention, this may have ramifications.

01:36:29.240 I mean, certainly the decision here is not a binding precedent, but it is the first time it will be decided at a court at this level.

01:36:36.800 So it will certainly be instructive for any other countries that are facing the same problems, the United States included.

01:36:43.500 So should we see litigation be brought with respect to what's happened to Title IX or the NCAA Riley Gaines's case, they may be looking to the decision of Tickle versus Giggle in how they argue the case.

01:36:57.920 So this is really, really important globally, whatever happens.

01:37:03.480 Well, I look forward to the UN enforcing its new potential rule against gender identity discrimination in Iran and Palestine.

01:37:11.060 We'll see how that plays out.

01:37:13.860 This person, Roxy Tickle, does not, to me, seem like an honest broker.

01:37:18.620 And I also am very suspicious of Roxy's open whiskers.

01:37:23.940 I mean, I've talked about this with a lot of experts in this field, from Helen Joyce to Kelly J. Keene.

01:37:30.000 A lot of people have done a lot of research who say someone who is genuinely transgender wants to be seen as female.

01:37:39.280 Like, they would not be wearing whiskers. 0.98

01:37:42.440 They would not be showing off a penis in a locker room. 0.99

01:37:45.980 That's not what Roxy allegedly did. 0.99

01:37:47.500 But many of these folks have been caught doing this, like Leah Thomas.

01:37:50.540 And it tells us, in general, something about this particular kind of man.

01:37:55.140 Usually, it's that he's one of those men who actually gets sexually aroused by dressing as a woman and then going into women's spaces. 0.63

01:38:04.480 I don't know whether that's Roxy Tickle's thing or not.

01:38:08.180 But just for the audience at home, here's Roxy on camera talking about sports.

01:38:13.540 My name is Roxy Tickle.

01:38:15.380 I'm a trans woman from Lismore, New South Wales.

01:38:18.720 I play hockey for East Lismore Hockey Club.

01:38:21.120 And I'm one of the people that the Save Women's Sport Bill is asking you to be worried about.

01:38:26.600 The downside is that having a third of the testosterone of the average cisgender female, I have a smaller engine.

01:38:35.820 My heart can't pump as much oxygen around my body.

01:38:39.640 I think the Save Women's Sport Bill is based on fear and misunderstanding.

01:38:45.360 It doesn't appear to be based on me.

01:38:49.320 And yet it's going to affect me.

01:38:51.380 I absolutely believe that I should be playing hockey in a women's team.

01:38:56.840 I am a woman.

01:38:58.840 End of story.

01:39:00.440 Oh, my God.

01:39:01.620 It's so not the end of the story.

01:39:03.360 It's a fake story.

01:39:04.220 That's a fake news story.

01:39:05.520 So, Sal, what do you make of the argument there, first of all, that?

01:39:09.920 He's got less testosterone than the three of us have as individuals.

01:39:14.680 And therefore, it's perfectly fair.

01:39:16.220 What are we complaining about?

01:39:18.260 Yeah.

01:39:18.600 I mean, I don't know his medical status or anything.

01:39:23.620 I don't know anything about this person.

01:39:25.200 All I know actually about him is that he's male and litigious. 0.85

01:39:28.460 And so I don't care.

01:39:31.100 I mean, even if there is a man who really is sort of putting in effort to look like a woman, he still isn't a woman. 0.92

01:39:39.340 I mean, when women aren't an outfit, we're not a costume to be worn. 0.99

01:39:44.860 And we are our own actual class of human being.

01:39:49.260 And that has to be recognized in law.

01:39:51.940 I think that Roxy is fully entitled to play hockey in the male team. 1.00

01:39:58.600 Or if there is a unisex team where everybody is, you know, a willing participant in a male and female competition, fine.

01:40:07.320 Okay, like no one's actually trying to take rights away from these men.

01:40:13.600 What they're actually trying to do is take rights away from us while gaining privileges that no one else has.

01:40:20.060 I mean, if you're allowing men to say that they're women and they can go into female spaces and female sport, that's giving them more rights than just men.

01:40:27.500 Like they're just this group of people that have more rights than everyone else while gaslighting us all that they are the most marginalized and oppressed people on the planet.

01:40:36.180 No, they're not marginalized or oppressed.

01:40:38.200 They're getting laws changed in stealth.

01:40:40.100 Like you think of how gay people practically had to beg for the right to get married. 0.89

01:40:44.300 But men who claim to be women just get whatever they want. 0.96

01:40:47.540 It's just nonsense that they're even trying to keep up this act that, yeah, that they are oppressed.

01:40:54.980 But I think that when the entire premise starts with a lie, everything else that follows is a lie from that as well.

01:41:01.460 So a couple of points.

01:41:02.680 Number one, yes, anybody who's post-male puberty has got an advantage over women physically. 0.84

01:41:08.160 But I really like the point that you're making, which is I don't care whether they do it or they don't.

01:41:13.980 I don't care if it's pre or post.

01:41:15.440 They're men.

01:41:16.160 They're boys.

01:41:17.000 Period.

01:41:17.420 That's the end of it.

01:41:19.400 And I want to follow up on that.

01:41:20.840 But your reference to We're Not a Costume made me think of Brand Dove, who I assume you've seen her beautiful poem.

01:41:27.680 The Irish 14-year-old girl who wrote that amazing, she's come on the show.

01:41:31.480 I feel like every woman who's at all interested in our rights has read this poem. 0.95

01:41:34.440 But I pulled up that part.

01:41:35.800 I am not a dress to be worn on a whim.

01:41:38.260 A man in a dress is nonetheless a hymn. 0.97

01:41:41.440 Women are not simply what we wear. 1.00

01:41:43.540 If this offends you, I do not care.

01:41:46.540 She goes on.

01:41:47.180 For the audience listening at home, it's pronounced Brand Dove.

01:41:51.800 That's what she goes under.

01:41:52.620 But it's spelled Brand Dove, D-U-B-H.

01:41:55.240 Just Google it and you'll see her amazing poem, I Am Not a Dress.

01:41:59.620 But on that front, we're getting more and more to the point where it's like, well, more and more kids have this delusion, Catherine.

01:42:10.180 You know, we're transing children now.

01:42:13.480 It's become massive, a massive problem in Australia, in the U.K., in Scandinavia, in the United States, in Canada.

01:42:22.000 And we're allowing it.

01:42:24.020 Here in the United States, we haven't caught on to any of the restrictions that have been imposed in some of those other places.

01:42:29.720 And I don't think Australia has either.

01:42:32.000 I think we're behind U.K. Stop Puberty Blockers for Kids and Scandinavia has as well, as well as cross-sex hormones. 0.73

01:42:37.700 Not us. We're full steam ahead.

01:42:40.520 And I wonder what you think about that.

01:42:43.660 Because when they have a prepubescent boy who hasn't yet gone through male puberty, right?

01:42:49.560 He doesn't have the longer femurs and the stronger muscles and the bigger heart.

01:42:53.980 And they say, we put him on puberty blockers and we put him right on cross-sex hormones.

01:42:58.440 He's essentially a woman and has no advantages over you. 0.99

01:43:01.920 And he should be allowed access to all the spaces.

01:43:04.740 And then let's say he has the surgery and physically he makes himself resemble a woman as much as one can do as a human. 0.59

01:43:13.080 What are we to do with that boy slash man? 0.98

01:43:16.240 Well, the benefits from testosterone start accruing in utero.

01:43:23.840 About six weeks after conception, they get a big dose of testosterone.

01:43:27.320 They get another dose about six weeks after birth.

01:43:29.720 And that continues throughout childhood.

01:43:31.240 So even if you arrest and interfere with his puberty, he still has the benefits of that.

01:43:37.960 And as Sal pointed out, I'm sorry, but that child is still a biological male.

01:43:43.260 And I'm of the view we should not be lying to them.

01:43:46.040 I mean, I grew up with a gay sibling. 0.96

01:43:49.260 He was very effeminate as a child.

01:43:52.180 And should we have been children now, I have no doubt that they would have tried to target him for transitioning.

01:43:58.960 And I think that we just should be teaching children that they're perfect just the way they are.

01:44:03.940 They can be as effeminate or masculine as they choose.

01:44:08.540 But you're right, Megan.

01:44:09.980 I mean, we're going to have a real problem with some of these children that have been led down the garden path with this lie.

01:44:16.060 And they come to the realisation later in life.

01:44:18.940 And I think that here in Australia, when these children actually realise what has been done to them, that they have been experimented on, that they have had their fertility robbed, normal sexual functioning, that they are left with a whole extraordinary range of medical complications and the lawsuits start.

01:44:37.320 I think probably that's what's going to happen in the US.

01:44:39.720 You're going to have to have some of those extraordinarily massive payouts before they stop what they're doing, because obviously health is for profit in your country, unfortunately.

01:44:50.700 But here in Australia, the CAS report has been released.

01:44:54.760 And with gender medicine here, the justification for what they're doing to children has been, oh, we're just looking to the gold standard, to best practice. 0.91

01:45:04.100 We're looking to WPATH.

01:45:05.480 We're looking to what they're doing in Tavistock.

01:45:07.420 And we're just replicating what they're doing.

01:45:08.920 But now that the CAS report has come out, the response has been, oh, Australia is substantially different.

01:45:14.360 We're not going to follow what they've come out with on that report.

01:45:17.740 We're going to continue what we're doing.

01:45:19.460 So unfortunately, I think it's going to have to take massive lawsuits or medical insurers who refuse to indemnify practitioners who practice this type of experimentation on children.

01:45:30.800 And, you know, one, this problem snowballs on its own, because, you know, back when we were kids, the thing that girls were getting sucked into was like an eating disorder. 1.00

01:45:42.420 You know, you're somebody in your class might have had one.

01:45:44.960 And then you kind of started looking at it or considering it in a way maybe you hadn't before.

01:45:49.100 It was its own kind of social contagion and still is for some girls. 0.98

01:45:53.460 But now this is a social contagion on steroids.

01:45:57.400 And the more this makes its way into our world, the more these young kids see it.

01:46:03.940 And girls who are typically never affected by gender dysphoria or confusion of any kind are now the number one victims of it. 0.95

01:46:11.240 And of a system that says affirm, affirm, affirm, affirm, you're you're in the cast report talked about that, too.

01:46:17.500 And so now you've got Hollywood celebrities outing their allegedly trans kids at younger and younger ages.

01:46:26.840 And we're supposed to celebrate it like it's totally normal.

01:46:29.640 And we're bullies if we think there's something wrong with this.

01:46:33.080 And in the States, you guys probably you might know of Mr. Beast.

01:46:37.580 He's a worldwide YouTube celebrity.

01:46:39.660 He's got this right hand man whose name is Chris, who just fully transitioned on camera in front of kids.

01:46:50.720 Kids are Mr. Beast's core audience.

01:46:54.200 He's only like 25 or 26 years old, if that.

01:46:58.780 And this guy, Chris, who was married with a baby.

01:47:03.580 And I understand the wife just left him, of course, who could blame her? 0.97

01:47:07.320 Um, has just debuted his new, you know, fully feminine look and had similar language to Roxy Tickle in that soundbite we just played.

01:47:18.980 Take a look at him in SOT 23.

01:47:20.700 Mr. Beast's sidekick has now revealed she will be using a new name following her transition.

01:47:26.280 The viral YouTube star shared a picture to her social media standing next to letters that read Ava, and she simply captioned the post.

01:47:32.520 In case you haven't heard, she also changed her name across social media to Ava Chris Tyson, keeping her former forename as her middle name.

01:47:38.680 The name change comes nine months after the star revealed she's transgender.

01:47:41.620 I was so scared of saying I am a woman and then instantly hearing, no, you're not.

01:47:48.060 Because in my head, I fought with that every day.

01:47:52.060 I mean, today you showed up fully presenting as a woman.

01:47:56.500 I did, because I am a woman.

01:47:58.520 Oh, yeah.

01:48:00.320 She hurts.

01:48:01.440 You've never said that before, right?

01:48:02.720 I've never said that publicly, no.

01:48:04.240 But I've been fully, like, confident in that decision for over a year now.

01:48:08.820 I'm, like, I, that, I am a woman coming from a man.

01:48:15.100 It's, like, it makes my skin crawl.

01:48:16.560 What are your thoughts on a cell? 0.99

01:48:18.980 I mean, they just look ridiculous. 0.54

01:48:22.040 I'm very much of the thought that, like, you can, you can be a guy and wear makeup and a dress if you want. 0.96

01:48:28.000 Like, that's a free society.

01:48:29.200 And if we were in a movement that was just about men wanting to be, like, classically feminine or girly and stuff like that, I'd be all for it. 0.96

01:48:38.060 I don't really care.

01:48:38.820 Even though, I mean, I know a little bit too much about autogynephilia now to completely support it how I might once have. 0.98

01:48:44.740 But at the same time, they do look ridiculous. 0.98

01:48:48.920 Yes. 0.99

01:48:49.200 There's just something about it.

01:48:51.300 They're not fooling anyone.

01:48:53.220 Yeah.

01:48:53.620 I mean, he doesn't look like a woman. 0.98

01:48:55.180 He's presenting as a woman.

01:48:57.140 No, he's presenting as a man.

01:48:58.480 This is the whole part of it where, like, the legal statute for it and whatnot, it's like, you know, you've got to live as a woman. 0.97

01:49:04.900 What is living as a woman? 1.00

01:49:06.620 Because that is different in every culture.

01:49:08.420 It is different in every household.

01:49:10.320 I mean, some women work full time. 1.00

01:49:12.400 Some women are stay-at-home moms and do the housework. 1.00

01:49:14.600 What is living as a woman? 1.00

01:49:16.920 And I'll say this much, that cutting off your penis and then putting on a dress that you never worn before and you're scared to wear and tell people that you're a woman, that's living as a man. 1.00

01:49:29.020 That's not living as a woman. 1.00

01:49:30.360 None of these men can live as women because they're not. 1.00

01:49:33.300 It's that simple.

01:49:34.260 I don't know how many other ways we can say it.

01:49:36.740 I feel like for four years, I'm just trying to reinvent other ways to say men are not women, men are not women.

01:49:41.600 I'm kind of running out.

01:49:42.720 I can't believe we're still having the conversation.

01:49:44.860 Back to Brand Dove's poem.

01:49:47.840 I am not defined by sexist lies.

01:49:50.340 There is more to woman than that shallow guise, that guise of dresses, bikinis, and skirts. 1.00

01:49:56.540 Those clothes are not what womanhood is worth. 1.00

01:49:59.800 Exactly it.

01:50:00.520 That's what you're saying. 1.00

01:50:01.260 You don't put on the dress and even cut off your penis and get to join the club. 0.99

01:50:05.960 Sorry, it's God-given and man-made and it cannot be changed no matter what you do. 0.99

01:50:11.620 But I do worry, Catherine, about children's cartoons more and more introducing non-binary characters and trans, so-called trans characters, and Mr. Beast fronting formerly Chris, now Ava, as if this is just not even a thing.

01:50:28.200 This is basically just dyeing your hair from brown to blonde.

01:50:31.560 Everything's cool.

01:50:32.460 I don't think on Mr. Beast they're going to be talking about the dramatic trauma that your body goes through if you try to engage in this medical engineering.

01:50:42.820 Look, this is where parents have to step in and be extremely vigilant about what their children, about the media that their children are consuming.

01:50:54.960 You need to let your children's school know that you do not agree with gender identity ideology.

01:50:59.860 You do not consent to them being taught anything about it.

01:51:02.640 You know, for example, there is a child identifying as the opposite sex at my children's school and I said to my youngest, you can call him a he. 0.99

01:51:11.100 He is a he. 1.00

01:51:12.060 And she said, am I going to get in trouble?

01:51:14.140 I said, do you know what mummy does for a living? 1.00

01:51:16.620 So, you know, I'm happy to have that fight with the principal.

01:51:20.380 But we really, really need to be vigilant and particularly, you know, with children.

01:51:24.600 I mean, this whole movement is so regressive.

01:51:27.120 The fact that you're telling children if they don't adhere to very strict sex stereotypes that they must be the opposite sex, that we are telling them, you know, puberty is a discomfort.

01:51:38.300 Yes, it's distressing and we'll put you on medication.

01:51:40.680 You don't have to do it.

01:51:41.740 Instead of saying, just being frank with them and saying, yes, everyone goes through it.

01:51:45.960 We all struggle.

01:51:46.900 It's all awful.

01:51:47.780 We all get pimples.

01:51:48.960 But everyone's going through it at pretty much the same time and you will get through it.

01:51:53.140 So this is where parents really need to step in and have those conversations and be involved in your children's life.

01:52:01.220 And, you know, I mean, I don't want the school.

01:52:03.460 I don't want the media to indoctrinate your children.

01:52:06.200 I mean, it's up to you to instill your values in your own children.

01:52:09.840 And the only way you do that is by having conversations and spending as much time as you possibly can with them.

01:52:16.080 I know.

01:52:16.860 I've talked to my own daughter about this.

01:52:19.260 And, of course, they do all get, you know, acne and so on in puberty like we all did.

01:52:24.960 But I really started to watch my own messaging around what happens to our bodies during puberty because there are also so many awesome things about it.

01:52:33.860 You know, like you get your hips and you get your breasts and you get this beautiful shape and you get taller and your hair gets fuller.

01:52:42.980 And, you know, your face changes a little and you get some angles eventually.

01:52:47.980 And it's all part of this amazingly beautiful metamorphosis, you know, of girl into woman.

01:52:54.680 It's these guys we're talking about, Chris or whatever Roxy was before he stole that female name, would give anything to have the beautiful joy of going through actual female puberty.

01:53:07.940 It's it's something unique to us and such a once in a lifetime opportunity for these girls to really transition into these full fledged women who are going to rule the world someday. 1.00

01:53:19.460 So I I do start to like, you know, I watch my own messaging around it.

01:53:23.900 You know, yes, acne.

01:53:24.660 But you get it even worse if you try to transition into being a boy.

01:53:27.560 I don't think going on testosterone isn't going to bring even more your way.

01:53:32.500 All right.

01:53:33.020 So what's going to happen?

01:53:34.600 Because I got to say, sitting here, I don't feel good about how it's going to turn out, ladies.

01:53:39.340 I don't trust your high court.

01:53:41.480 I don't trust this court.

01:53:42.600 I would like to say I do, but I don't.

01:53:44.620 I just feel like everything's woke now and the court's probably going to go against you.

01:53:48.620 Hopefully I'm wrong.

01:53:49.520 But if they do, do you do you open tickle to the Roxy's or giggle?

01:53:56.660 Sorry, I was I'm sure everybody screws that up.

01:53:58.820 You open giggle to the Roxy tickles of the world.

01:54:04.020 No, no, I have no interest in running a platform that would actually become male only because all of the women would leave. 0.98

01:54:12.260 There's no point to it unless it's female only. 1.00

01:54:15.840 I mean, if I if men are allowed who claim to be women are allowed on it, congratulations to me. 0.97

01:54:21.240 I've invented Twitter.

01:54:24.040 It's absurd.

01:54:25.540 No, I want to run a female only platform for females. 1.00

01:54:31.880 It's as simple as that.

01:54:33.100 And I won't stop fighting.

01:54:34.580 So we have federal court and then we've got high court after high court.

01:54:38.440 If we were to lose in the high court, it would just be trying to get politicians in Australia to have some kind of political appetite to not only not even protect women's rights to actually give us some. 0.91

01:54:54.040 And who knows?

01:54:55.200 I mean, that could take our entire lifetime.

01:54:56.840 I hope not.

01:54:57.820 I'm quite optimistic.

01:54:58.900 I see that around the world that things are changing.

01:55:01.760 And sometimes there is something where you have to take one step back to take two steps forward.

01:55:05.560 Like Title IX, I think, is a classic example of that. 0.99

01:55:08.440 Where this utterly stupid thing has happened. 0.99

01:55:11.420 But you know what? 1.00

01:55:12.400 More people now know what's happening than they did a week ago because something really stupid happens and more people wake up to it.

01:55:18.920 So I actually think that they were able to get most of the stuff into laws and organizations all around the world because they did it in stealth.

01:55:27.140 They don't really have that as an asset anymore.

01:55:29.660 I mean, from four years ago when I found out what was going on to how it is now, it's just a completely different atmosphere.

01:55:36.640 And I think that we are all going to win eventually because the truth does eventually win out.

01:55:42.600 Gender ideology is a complete lie from start to finish. 1.00

01:55:45.940 And so, no, I think bad ideologies do fall eventually.

01:55:50.640 We just have to push back and push back until they do.

01:55:54.300 I love that.

01:55:55.400 I'm going to let that be the final word because it's inspirational and it's hopeful and I really want to believe it's true.

01:56:00.280 I feel the tide starting to turn.

01:56:02.260 You're so right about the stealth effort.

01:56:05.180 But we're awake now.

01:56:06.420 Now we're paying attention.

01:56:07.820 And don't underestimate us.

01:56:09.280 Sal, all the best to you, Catherine.

01:56:11.460 You too, please come back.

01:56:12.660 Come back when you get your ruling and any time you want to talk about what's happening over there.

01:56:17.380 Thank you so much.

01:56:18.880 Thank you, Megan.

01:56:19.620 It was great to join you.

01:56:21.700 Much love to you both.

01:56:22.820 Now, to support Sal and Catherine in this effort, you can go to gigglecrowdfund.com.

01:56:30.140 Gigglecrowdfund.com.

01:56:31.000 Even if you can just donate five bucks, it would really help.

01:56:34.840 You can see she's got her work cut out for her when it comes to this legal lane, but they're fighting.

01:56:39.280 She's got a good lawyer. 1.00

01:56:40.720 So fingers crossed.

01:56:42.840 Tomorrow, Heather McDonald.

01:56:45.220 Oh, I can't wait to talk to her.

01:56:46.860 She's so brilliant.

01:56:48.380 She'll be on tomorrow.

01:56:49.060 Can't wait.

01:56:49.720 And we'll see you all day.

01:56:55.120 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:56:57.060 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:57:09.280 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 23, 2024

NBC ＂Catch and Kill＂ Hypocrisy, Baldwin Harassed, and What is a Woman Lawsuit, with Mike Davis, Dave Aronberg, Sall Grover, and Katherine Deves ｜ Ep. 773

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