The Megyn Kelly Show - New Battle in Left's War on Joe Rogan, and Black Prosperity Under Trump, with Jason Riley ｜ Ep. 256

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans. 1.00

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings.

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.620 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.500 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.300 That dress?

00:00:21.080 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.780 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.800 Stop wondering.

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00:00:30.620 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.860 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.540 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:00:46.140 It's a busy Monday in the news biz.

00:00:48.720 Joe Rogan apologizing over the weekend

00:00:50.940 for his repeated use of the N-word

00:00:53.100 and for another controversial remark.

00:00:56.460 But Spotify's CEO for now is standing by him

00:00:58.980 saying while the comments were hurtful,

00:01:01.800 canceling voices is a slippery slope.

00:01:05.200 There's a lot going on in that case this morning.

00:01:06.900 We'll bring it to you.

00:01:08.000 Also, protests erupting in Minneapolis

00:01:10.120 after police shoot and kill a black man

00:01:13.120 during a no-knock warrant, 0.76

00:01:15.080 during the execution of the no-knock warrant.

00:01:17.180 We'll get into that as well.

00:01:18.820 And my first guest today is the perfect person

00:01:20.800 to discuss this and much more with.

00:01:22.400 Jason Reilly, one of my favorite people to read.

00:01:25.800 I mean, honestly, his books,

00:01:26.820 his columns at The Wall Street Journal,

00:01:28.560 whatever he writes, you should be reading it

00:01:30.060 and you will be smarter.

00:01:31.240 And he is the author of the book,

00:01:33.940 The Black Boom, which is out today. 0.97

00:01:37.160 So we'll discuss that.

00:01:38.220 And he's also, as I mentioned,

00:01:39.100 a columnist at The Wall Street Journal

00:01:40.180 and a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute.

00:01:42.700 Jason, welcome back.

00:01:44.420 Thank you for having me, Megyn.

00:01:45.800 Congrats on the book.

00:01:46.740 We'll get to that in one sec.

00:01:47.740 Let me just hit a couple of news items with you.

00:01:50.920 And I'll just kick it off with Joe Rogan.

00:01:53.400 So they tried to get him over the past couple of weeks

00:01:56.800 for, quote, COVID misinformation.

00:01:58.940 You know, he put on Dr. Robert Malone and others,

00:02:01.180 and some didn't feel he questioned them

00:02:03.080 aggressively enough about their anti-vaccine opinions.

00:02:07.600 He came out and said, okay, I'll try to do better.

00:02:09.680 I'll put on more diverse voices and I'll press harder.

00:02:12.940 Then they switched the narrative to he's a racist.

00:02:16.160 And we saw the same tapes

00:02:17.720 that they're circulating about him now

00:02:19.420 right after he endorsed Bernie.

00:02:22.280 You know, it was very clear

00:02:23.520 the Biden people put out the tapes

00:02:25.540 saying, you know, this guy, don't listen to Joe Rogan. 0.96

00:02:30.020 He may like Bernie, but he's a racist. 0.55

00:02:31.940 And indeed, the tapes show him using the N-word 0.96

00:02:33.960 at least a dozen times over the past several years.

00:02:37.700 I think it's in the past decade.

00:02:39.220 And telling a story about going to see

00:02:41.680 the movie Planet of the Apes

00:02:43.020 in a predominantly black neighborhood

00:02:45.140 and Joe Rogan saying,

00:02:46.680 it felt like I was on Planet of the Apes

00:02:49.920 when I went to watch the movie.

00:02:52.020 And he apologized for that too,

00:02:54.080 saying, I realize that sounds incredibly racist.

00:02:56.980 You know, even to me, it's horrible.

00:02:58.660 I'm sorry, sorry, sorry.

00:03:01.680 And I wonder, because you're always fair on these issues.

00:03:05.340 Those are tough comments.

00:03:07.140 But what is the big picture in your view

00:03:09.580 about what's happening right now with Joe Rogan?

00:03:11.720 Well, you know, I'm not really familiar with this show.

00:03:15.120 I don't listen to it, Megan.

00:03:16.720 But it does seem to fit,

00:03:18.680 this instance does seem to fit a pattern

00:03:21.680 of what we've seen through this whole, you know,

00:03:24.620 cancel culture phenomenon,

00:03:26.300 where someone says something controversial

00:03:28.760 or something you don't like,

00:03:30.840 and the idea is not to debate that person

00:03:33.260 but to silence them

00:03:35.920 or to shun them in some way, you know.

00:03:38.980 And as a journalist like you,

00:03:40.900 I don't like to see that.

00:03:42.680 I think, you know,

00:03:43.880 I take free speech and freedom of expression

00:03:46.540 and that sort of thing very seriously.

00:03:48.240 And I think if someone says something controversial,

00:03:51.120 you push back by pointing out where they're wrong

00:03:55.660 and then you move on.

00:03:56.760 And that's what we do in this society.

00:03:58.560 But this idea that we're going to police speech

00:04:01.140 is something that doesn't sit well with me

00:04:03.340 as a journalist.

00:04:04.140 And I'm sure it doesn't sit well

00:04:04.920 with a lot of Americans

00:04:05.700 who can decide for themselves.

00:04:07.780 You know, if people don't like

00:04:10.040 what Joe Rogan is saying,

00:04:11.140 well, stop listening to him.

00:04:12.380 I mean, that's sort of the way it works here.

00:04:15.260 And yet that's not the way they want it to work.

00:04:17.600 They want him gone.

00:04:18.640 They want him deplatformed entirely.

00:04:20.880 And you've got people like Indy Aree coming out 1.00

00:04:24.600 and saying, I don't care about the COVID stuff.

00:04:26.460 I care about the race stuff. 0.88

00:04:27.860 And I don't want my music on a platform

00:04:29.780 with a guy who makes comments like that.

00:04:33.920 What do you make of it, right?

00:04:35.120 Because it's like, I understand,

00:04:37.960 even in the past, in the past 10 years,

00:04:40.420 people knew not to use the N-word.

00:04:41.760 It's not like that was a new revelation.

00:04:44.160 And yet that word is all over Spotify's music.

00:04:48.120 If you listen to Spotify, you're doing it.

00:04:49.500 It's very, obviously, it's a very selective outrage.

00:04:52.640 I mean, that's been clear for a long time.

00:04:54.820 But it's also selective in the sense

00:04:57.120 that the left rarely wants to call out their own

00:05:01.240 when they get in this sort of trouble

00:05:03.100 with their misuse.

00:05:04.440 I mean, you know, civil rights leaders,

00:05:07.200 anti-Semitic remarks made over the years,

00:05:10.380 racist remarks made by Blacks and others on the left,

00:05:13.640 they seem to get a pass. 0.96

00:05:15.440 We don't linger over that.

00:05:17.260 We move on.

00:05:17.960 So, yes, but it is very much selective outrage. 0.97

00:05:21.080 This idea that Black people melt 0.69

00:05:23.240 when they hear that word,

00:05:24.880 it's a lot of play acting.

00:05:26.620 I mean, Dave Chappelle can't string together

00:05:28.360 two sentences without using this word.

00:05:30.300 We're the most popular entertainers in the country.

00:05:32.540 So, yes, I do see a lot of performance art going on here.

00:05:36.620 Yeah, I'm thinking of somebody like Chelsea Handler,

00:05:39.580 who was praising Louis Farrakhan, 0.97

00:05:41.460 who has made the most disgusting remarks possible about Jews. 0.59

00:05:44.520 Didn't hurt her career. 0.98

00:05:45.580 No one cares.

00:05:46.500 Fine.

00:05:47.080 She can be cast.

00:05:47.960 No one's saying she should never act in another movie again.

00:05:50.680 Different story.

00:05:51.540 And so, yeah, you could do this to a lot of very popular,

00:05:54.720 especially somebody like Joe Rogan,

00:05:55.940 who's just been,

00:05:56.820 it's not like he's been anchoring the CBS Evening News.

00:05:59.200 You know, he's been out there having like these

00:06:01.640 no-holds-barred conversations for all his time

00:06:04.120 and his show exploded.

00:06:05.560 And I just don't think he ever put guardrails on himself.

00:06:08.820 And now he's realizing with a bigger platform,

00:06:11.160 he may have to.

00:06:12.220 That's part of the deal with all the power he has

00:06:15.040 and the partnership with Spotify.

00:06:16.440 I would like to call your attention, though,

00:06:18.260 as a journalist,

00:06:19.360 and you're with The Wall Street Journal,

00:06:21.160 but here is, listen to this, Margaret Sullivan.

00:06:24.720 She's a columnist at The Washington Post for our audience.

00:06:27.960 She comes out with this, Jace.

00:06:29.420 She says,

00:06:31.800 I'm disgusted by Joe Rogan's weak apology on the COVID stuff.

00:06:35.860 My former colleague's death at age 47 makes it worse.

00:06:39.860 My friend was 47.

00:06:40.880 He was overweight and asthmatic, very much at risk,

00:06:43.660 and he was unvaccinated.

00:06:45.560 And she's blaming Joe Rogan.

00:06:47.200 But then she adds this.

00:06:49.180 I don't know for sure whether getting vaccination

00:06:51.060 and booster shots would have saved his life.

00:06:53.900 And I have no idea

00:06:54.900 whether he'd ever listen to Joe Rogan's podcast

00:06:57.400 or for what reason he chose not to be vaccinated.

00:07:01.360 But let me get back to the point.

00:07:02.920 It's Joe Rogan's fault and Spotify's too.

00:07:05.080 I mean, this is the lunacy on the left, Jason.

00:07:07.920 It is lunacy.

00:07:09.840 And again, it's sort of this condescension,

00:07:13.060 this condescending view of the American public

00:07:15.400 and their supposed inability

00:07:17.740 to separate the sort of wheat from the chafe

00:07:20.240 and this sort of thing.

00:07:20.920 I mean, there's all kinds of information

00:07:22.300 coming at everyday people all the time.

00:07:24.840 They decide who to take seriously.

00:07:27.280 They decide who to go to for medical advice.

00:07:30.420 And the idea that a comedian can't be out there

00:07:33.040 doing his thing

00:07:33.880 or someone just talking off the top of their head

00:07:37.500 that people are sitting at home

00:07:39.300 as if this is a biblical script that they're hearing

00:07:42.540 and are going to go immediately act on it. 0.95

00:07:44.460 It's just, it's nonsense.

00:07:46.040 And again, I think it's a very insulting view

00:07:48.000 of the intelligence of the average person in this country,

00:07:50.680 including the average Joe Rogan listener,

00:07:53.020 who knows, you know, when he's fooling around

00:07:55.120 and when he's trying to be serious.

00:07:57.400 Plus they're getting, I mean, on the COVID stuff,

00:07:59.300 they are getting the other narrative

00:08:00.940 by the boatload, every channel they turn on.

00:08:05.300 So he puts on an alternate voice

00:08:07.400 with an alternate viewpoint.

00:08:09.740 Like they don't need Joe Rogan to interview,

00:08:12.320 although he did Sanjay Gupta

00:08:13.740 to get Sanjay Gupta's point of view.

00:08:15.480 So yeah, the idea that you need,

00:08:19.240 he needs more balance on his program,

00:08:22.260 where the existence of his program

00:08:25.800 is providing balance.

00:08:27.980 This, yeah, you come up against this all the time,

00:08:32.380 this sort of token balance that the left believes in.

00:08:36.300 You know, I get invited to do panel discussions

00:08:38.660 and things like that all the time.

00:08:40.120 And it'll always, almost always be three-on-one,

00:08:43.420 four-on-one.

00:08:44.260 And because they have one more conservative voice,

00:08:47.060 it's, oh, we have balance now.

00:08:48.800 No, you don't have balance.

00:08:51.400 You have window dressing is what you have.

00:08:53.880 And so, yes, this idea that Joe Rogan's show

00:08:58.080 needs more balance.

00:08:59.480 Oh my goodness.

00:09:00.500 I mean, one of the few conservative voices out there

00:09:04.900 and they can't tolerate that.

00:09:06.920 Mm-hmm.

00:09:08.020 I mean, I really do think with him,

00:09:11.040 I mean, they do go after their own,

00:09:12.640 the left woke mob.

00:09:13.640 It's not all liberals.

00:09:14.640 It's the leftist woke mob.

00:09:16.680 But they go after their own sometimes.

00:09:18.580 You know, we've seen that in a couple of cases.

00:09:20.460 But somebody like Joe Rogan,

00:09:22.760 who is not woke

00:09:23.920 and is fighting them on that core issue

00:09:26.400 of making identity politics everything,

00:09:28.960 you know, race essentialism and trans ideology

00:09:30.960 and all of it is a particular threat,

00:09:33.480 especially given that his platform,

00:09:35.100 you know, he's got 11 million viewers or listeners.

00:09:38.840 It dwarfs anything in cable news.

00:09:41.240 I mean, anything.

00:09:41.840 You could combine the average ratings of,

00:09:44.000 you know, all the Fox News evening hosts

00:09:46.260 who dwarf MSNBC and CNN hosts

00:09:48.360 and they still wouldn't reach Joe Rogan.

00:09:51.060 So he's a bigger threat.

00:09:52.460 So and so that's what this is about.

00:09:53.900 They want to silence him for those viewpoints,

00:09:56.800 not for any particular offense

00:09:58.360 they claim to be experiencing

00:09:59.860 from his comments on race or his COVID stuff.

00:10:02.840 There could be something to that.

00:10:05.940 You could be you could be absolutely right about that.

00:10:08.120 But I still think the dominant media in this country

00:10:12.020 is is is very left of center

00:10:14.820 and mostly left of center.

00:10:16.400 I mean, ABC, NBC, CBS,

00:10:18.880 The New York Times, The Washington Post,

00:10:20.860 USA Today, you just the biggest networks,

00:10:23.140 you know, all of academia, for example,

00:10:26.040 you know, the Hollywood left

00:10:27.800 in terms of the entertainment industry,

00:10:29.600 where people are thrown at.

00:10:30.660 Uh, they they have such a tremendous advantage.

00:10:35.020 The idea that they can't tolerate a Joe Rogan

00:10:37.940 here or there, that he is somehow a threat

00:10:41.080 to their to their dominant narratives out there. 0.99

00:10:43.920 I find pretty, pretty pathetic. 0.97

00:10:46.340 Um, you're talking about some very insecure people, 0.99

00:10:48.840 if that's what they really believe.

00:10:50.420 Yeah.

00:10:50.720 Well, now the CEO of Spotify, uh,

00:10:53.320 comes out and says he's standing by Rogan.

00:10:55.040 He says, I strongly condemn what Joe has said.

00:10:59.160 Um, and I agree with his decision

00:11:01.100 to remove past episodes from our platform.

00:11:03.460 Apparently between 70 and 100 episodes

00:11:05.140 have been removed.

00:11:06.060 He's saying by Joe himself.

00:11:08.840 But he says, I want to make one point very clear.

00:11:10.780 I don't believe that silencing him is the answer.

00:11:13.060 We should have clear lines around content

00:11:14.560 and take action when they're crossed.

00:11:15.740 But canceling voices is a slippery slope.

00:11:18.320 Looking at the issue more broadly,

00:11:19.640 it's critical thinking and open debate

00:11:21.660 that powers real and necessary progress.

00:11:25.700 This Jason, while to appease his critics,

00:11:28.660 he's donating, not donating,

00:11:30.500 but he's going to invest a hundred million dollars,

00:11:33.380 uh, to license and develop the marketing of music

00:11:36.620 and audio content from historically marginalized groups.

00:11:39.180 Right.

00:11:39.680 So it's like, get off my back.

00:11:43.560 Look at me.

00:11:45.540 Well, a lot of the most popular music

00:11:49.040 in this country is already coming

00:11:50.720 from historically marginalized groups.

00:11:52.580 I'm not sure that's where the groups,

00:11:54.300 these groups need the most help.

00:11:55.640 But well, you know, he actually means

00:11:57.000 he's referring, he's referring to his deal

00:11:58.500 with Meghan Markle.

00:12:03.020 He's already paying them 50 million

00:12:04.720 for a podcast they've released one episode of. 0.99

00:12:08.240 It's pathetic. 0.97

00:12:09.120 All right, let's move on to matters more important. 0.98

00:12:11.060 New York is a microcosm of what's happening

00:12:14.160 in cities all across the country with its crime rate.

00:12:16.540 You know, from San Francisco to L.A.

00:12:19.280 to Chicago, Pennsylvania, and so on.

00:12:20.660 Crime rights rising in our major cities.

00:12:22.420 Homicide rights, uh, homicides are rising.

00:12:26.020 And now because of these soft done crime DAs,

00:12:28.520 among other things,

00:12:29.120 and the demonization of police writ large

00:12:30.960 in the wake of George Floyd.

00:12:33.000 And so now, um, after the death of two police officers

00:12:36.960 that made national news in New York

00:12:38.620 and their funerals last week

00:12:39.980 in which this DA Alvin Bragg

00:12:41.420 was specifically called out by name,

00:12:43.400 he is rolling back a couple of his policies, okay?

00:12:48.100 I thought it was interesting to ask you about

00:12:49.340 because I saw you recently did a column

00:12:50.640 on Mayor Dinkins in New York

00:12:52.920 who was our first black mayor.

00:12:54.620 And you were saying, hey, Eric Adams,

00:12:57.260 Adams, of course, being the mayor,

00:12:58.520 Alvin Bragg is our DA.

00:12:59.880 You were like, pay attention

00:13:01.180 to what happened with Dinkins

00:13:02.200 because, you know, there's some lesson to be learned.

00:13:04.360 But Bragg says, okay, great news.

00:13:07.920 Commercial robberies done with guns,

00:13:10.840 loaded or not, and or with knives,

00:13:13.400 will be considered felonies again.

00:13:15.160 Great, great.

00:13:16.520 Make crime, make felonies, felonies again.

00:13:18.820 That's gonna be his new policy.

00:13:19.960 Terrific, it's all we ever wanted.

00:13:21.660 And he says, and also, quote,

00:13:22.680 violence against police officers

00:13:23.960 will not be tolerated.

00:13:26.000 Oh, okay.

00:13:27.280 Could go on, right?

00:13:28.840 Because what he did was he removed the death penalty.

00:13:31.280 He took it off the table

00:13:32.020 for anybody who shoots and kills a cop.

00:13:34.540 I'm not saying that's why these cops got killed,

00:13:36.460 but it doesn't help.

00:13:37.380 It's one of the reasons why the widows 1.00

00:13:38.520 are calling him out.

00:13:40.380 And I wonder, because there's that,

00:13:42.540 but there's so many other issues in New York

00:13:44.220 that he's not touching.

00:13:45.720 And I'll just take this from a New York Post columnist,

00:13:47.960 Bob McManus, wrote it.

00:13:49.560 How many innocent bystanders need to be eulogized

00:13:51.960 before Alvin Bragg moves?

00:13:54.320 How about targeting housing authority gangbanging?

00:13:56.880 Folks from the projects don't get 24-7 coverage

00:13:58.940 like murdered cops, but shouldn't they count?

00:14:01.000 How many more needless deaths in the subways

00:14:03.160 will it take to compel Bragg to address the chaos there?

00:14:05.460 How many more Rite-Aids have to close 1.00

00:14:06.980 before Bragg agrees to take organized shoplifting

00:14:09.200 for the broad social threat that it is?

00:14:10.840 Two?

00:14:11.180 Ten?

00:14:11.640 All more?

00:14:12.300 How many?

00:14:13.080 And here's a larger question he writes.

00:14:14.520 How long will Manhattan stand for his perverse

00:14:16.220 pick-and-choose interpretation of criminal codes?

00:14:19.100 This is not prosecutorial discretion, he says.

00:14:21.640 It's prosecutorial nullification.

00:14:24.820 Your thoughts?

00:14:26.620 I think McManus is absolutely right.

00:14:28.760 And there he's writing about the sort of downstream effects

00:14:31.940 of putting targets on the back of police officers.

00:14:35.100 It's not just the physical safety of cops that's the concern here.

00:14:39.440 It's that these cops will then pull back.

00:14:41.740 They'll become less proactive.

00:14:43.620 They'll be slower to answer 9-11 calls,

00:14:45.680 more reluctant to get out of their cars

00:14:47.380 and interact with members of these communities.

00:14:50.220 And what's going to happen in these communities

00:14:51.940 is that the bad guys, the criminals,

00:14:54.100 are going to have the run of the place.

00:14:55.740 And these criminals particularly prey on their neighbors. 0.98

00:14:59.320 So it is the black poor who are mostly law-abiding 1.00

00:15:02.660 that will bear the brunt of what you see happening in these cities. 0.55

00:15:07.460 And that's what McManus is talking about here.

00:15:10.120 And you're right.

00:15:11.160 It's not just a New York phenomenon.

00:15:12.560 We're seeing it in Philadelphia, San Francisco, Los Angeles,

00:15:16.320 all over the country,

00:15:17.960 these district attorneys bragging about who they will not prosecute,

00:15:23.240 how much they will back off going after the bad guys.

00:15:27.480 And this message is getting to the bad guys.

00:15:30.780 And that's the problem.

00:15:32.800 And in New York, what's unique in New York

00:15:34.820 is that you have a mayor who ran on a law-and-order platform

00:15:38.640 and won on a law-and-order platform.

00:15:41.320 But this district attorney you mentioned, Alvin Bragg,

00:15:43.800 was independently elected during an election

00:15:46.520 not a lot of people were paying attention to.

00:15:48.740 And so there's going to be a conflict here

00:15:50.540 between this law-and-order mayor,

00:15:52.820 or at least a mayor who was talking the law-and-order game,

00:15:55.260 and a prosecutor who comes right out

00:15:58.700 of the progressive central casting here

00:16:00.940 talking about how he doesn't want to go after these criminals.

00:16:05.120 And so we'll see what happens.

00:16:07.340 But I think the lesson from the Dinkin years 1.00

00:16:09.220 is that when you make police do their job

00:16:13.980 with one arm tied behind their back, they can't.

00:16:17.360 And the criminals win.

00:16:18.700 And we saw record levels of homicides,

00:16:21.160 of violent crime during the Dinkins years,

00:16:24.340 and that did not end, essentially,

00:16:27.180 until Rudy Giuliani came along after Dinkins

00:16:30.700 and let the cops do their job.

00:16:32.300 It made it clear that City Hall

00:16:33.720 had the backing of law enforcement.

00:16:36.260 And then they went about cleaning up New York.

00:16:38.040 And Michael Bloomberg, who followed Giuliani,

00:16:40.300 pretty much kept his policing policies in place.

00:16:43.440 And New York was back again.

00:16:46.060 And so we'll see what happens.

00:16:48.720 But I think there's going to be a real conflict here

00:16:50.920 between the new mayor and the new district attorney.

00:16:54.020 I hope so.

00:16:54.820 I hope there's a real conflict.

00:16:56.080 I mean, so far, Eric Adams has had Alvin Bragg's back.

00:16:59.060 And that's a problem.

00:17:00.080 He should be cracking down on him.

00:17:01.620 Maybe that helped Bragg reverse his,

00:17:03.600 you know, downgrading of armed robberies

00:17:06.500 into misdemeanors back up to a felony.

00:17:09.260 I mean, it's insane that we even spent a month

00:17:11.380 with that weird approach in place.

00:17:13.680 But he didn't completely pull his controversial memo.

00:17:16.840 So I think we're going to get a lot more crime

00:17:19.240 in New York City unless Eric Adams

00:17:20.900 and our very weak-kneed governor, Kathy Hochul, 0.93

00:17:24.120 do something to keep the pressure on this guy.

00:17:27.220 But here's the other side of it.

00:17:29.000 You know, we've been talking about how

00:17:30.080 after George Floyd and the talk about police

00:17:33.400 by these politicians as universally racist

00:17:36.040 and awful and out there in the streets 1.00

00:17:37.840 hunting black men has absolutely led 1.00

00:17:40.400 to an increase in crime. 0.99

00:17:41.360 Cops are like, OK, fine.

00:17:43.340 It's the Ferguson effect, right?

00:17:44.460 They stand back, as you were just saying.

00:17:47.040 Crime goes up and they got their arms crossed saying,

00:17:50.340 OK, how do you like life without us?

00:17:53.720 Now you see cops getting killed.

00:17:56.020 But invariably, you see another case of police

00:17:59.660 accused of overreacting, of being too trigger happy.

00:18:03.680 And the narrative swings back the other way.

00:18:05.740 And we've seen that over the past weekend.

00:18:08.140 I don't know if you've heard this case of Amir Locke.

00:18:11.160 So there were protests in Minneapolis.

00:18:15.600 It happened in Minneapolis.

00:18:16.740 Of course, George Floyd, too.

00:18:18.960 This this guy was 22 years old.

00:18:21.460 And what happened was he was fatally shot

00:18:23.680 by cops in a Minneapolis apartment last Wednesday.

00:18:26.380 They were executing a no knock warrant

00:18:28.020 where you don't have to sort of knock

00:18:30.320 and say police, police.

00:18:31.340 They had a key.

00:18:31.920 Actually, they went in.

00:18:33.220 They woke him up.

00:18:34.740 He was asleep on a couch, you know,

00:18:36.320 six forty eight in the morning.

00:18:37.500 And you see the guy wrapped in a blanket.

00:18:40.340 He was not the subject of the warrant

00:18:41.900 that this the man who was shot and killed, Amir Locke.

00:18:46.300 He was apparently what we're told

00:18:47.760 staying at his cousin's house.

00:18:49.520 One presumes the cousin was the subject of the warrant,

00:18:52.740 though they haven't made that clear.

00:18:55.060 The police come in.

00:18:56.160 The whole thing took 54 seconds

00:18:57.860 and they shoved the back of the couch 1.00

00:19:00.900 where the guy's sleeping.

00:19:02.180 He emerges from the couch.

00:19:04.280 I don't know whether he had the gun in his hand

00:19:06.740 from the second he emerged like he had it.

00:19:08.700 He's holding it while he was sleeping.

00:19:10.080 But within seconds, he was certainly pointing a gun.

00:19:13.000 The cops say at them.

00:19:14.200 The family says that's far from clear.

00:19:16.880 And he was shot and killed.

00:19:18.340 The officer shot three times.

00:19:21.020 Officer Mark Hanneman,

00:19:22.600 who'd been on the force since 2015.

00:19:24.280 He's been on paid administrative leave

00:19:26.380 since last week now.

00:19:27.900 And civil rights attorneys, Benjamin Crump, Jeff Storms,

00:19:31.360 they represented George Floyd's family.

00:19:32.660 They're already involved.

00:19:34.200 And this is the next big thing

00:19:36.080 where protesters have taken to the street,

00:19:38.780 reviving the anti-cop narrative.

00:19:41.500 What do you make of it?

00:19:43.460 Well, I don't know enough about the details of this case

00:19:46.600 to comment on it specifically.

00:19:48.600 But you're right.

00:19:49.380 It does fit a pattern that we've seen in recent years

00:19:52.620 with these high-profile incidents.

00:19:54.540 And what I worry about is the failure of the media

00:19:59.740 to put these interactions into a broader context.

00:20:03.980 These are rare instances.

00:20:07.500 And they're presented as everyday affairs.

00:20:10.860 And that's simply not true.

00:20:13.640 They also never talk about what is drawing police

00:20:17.880 to these neighborhoods in the first place.

00:20:19.700 In other words, they never talk about criminal behavior

00:20:21.800 and the role that that plays

00:20:23.620 in the number of incidents that occur overall.

00:20:26.860 And therefore, the number that could possibly go sideways,

00:20:30.240 which happens sometimes.

00:20:31.900 But you can't really talk about racial disparities

00:20:34.380 in police shootings

00:20:35.400 without talking about racial disparities

00:20:37.560 in criminal behavior.

00:20:39.040 And the media is very reluctant to do that.

00:20:41.800 And so the broader public

00:20:43.000 hears about incidents like this.

00:20:45.560 And, you know, everyone covers them.

00:20:49.480 It gets nonstop coverage.

00:20:51.040 And they assume that because something

00:20:52.500 is getting more coverage,

00:20:53.740 it's happening more often.

00:20:55.400 And that simply is not the case.

00:20:57.000 And I wish that the media would do a better job,

00:20:59.940 again, of explaining crime rates in this country

00:21:04.200 and what is going on in these interactions overall

00:21:08.220 between police and civilians.

00:21:10.260 And the media simply, you know,

00:21:12.020 does not do enough of that.

00:21:13.740 And I think it's quite misleading to the broader public.

00:21:16.800 One of the reasons we saw these enormous protests

00:21:19.500 after George Floyd,

00:21:20.500 people are convinced that, you know,

00:21:22.520 your typical black person walks out his door every day 1.00

00:21:24.820 worrying about becoming the next George Floyd, 0.71

00:21:27.460 when in fact, in these neighborhoods, 0.93

00:21:29.200 young black men leave the door, 0.97

00:21:30.760 leave home every day, 0.99

00:21:32.220 worrying about being shot by other young black men, 0.96

00:21:34.480 not by facing lethal force from the cops. 0.68

00:21:37.940 That's not what is foremost in their minds.

00:21:40.000 Mm-hmm.

00:21:40.880 So now MSNBC and CNN will put this on loop.

00:21:44.100 I will show it to our audience.

00:21:45.680 I tell you, it is disturbing

00:21:47.220 because I want you to know what we're talking about.

00:21:50.180 But this is the real-time video of it.

00:21:54.120 We have one where it's slowed down.

00:21:55.980 But here's the real-time shooting video.

00:21:59.400 And then we'll play the slow-motion video

00:22:01.300 right after of what happened.

00:22:04.020 Let's watch and listen.

00:22:05.080 And the audience listening at home,

00:22:06.680 this will be on our YouTube channel later,

00:22:08.120 this will be on our YouTube channel later.

00:22:22.120 So to correct my earlier statement,

00:22:37.140 it happened in nine seconds.

00:22:38.940 It's just that the whole tape we have is 54, nine seconds.

00:22:41.780 They went in.

00:22:42.740 The guy didn't have much of a chance to do anything.

00:22:44.400 Even gun, you know,

00:22:45.800 Second Amendment defenders are saying,

00:22:47.540 hey, he's allowed to have a gun in his own apartment.

00:22:49.700 And it was licensed and he had a permit.

00:22:52.720 And the cops are saying,

00:22:53.760 we have to make decisions in split seconds in our business.

00:22:57.700 We went in.

00:22:58.580 We'd been told this was a dangerous criminal's house.

00:23:01.040 And next thing we know,

00:23:02.080 this guy on the couch,

00:23:03.720 you can see he's got a gun in his hands

00:23:06.940 and we don't take chances.

00:23:09.600 And this is a still of him.

00:23:10.720 You can see, you can't, Jason,

00:23:11.940 but the audience, when they watch this on YouTube,

00:23:14.580 we'll see.

00:23:15.240 The guy's still wrapped in his blanket on the couch

00:23:17.880 and he's holding a gun.

00:23:20.180 And again, I think it's,

00:23:21.860 I don't know what happened in this particular situation,

00:23:26.740 but we do know statistically that it is extremely rare.

00:23:31.960 Police, lethal force,

00:23:33.780 lethal use of force by police is rare.

00:23:38.040 You know, there are 7,000 or so

00:23:40.540 Black homicides every year in this country. 0.97

00:23:44.520 Police are involved in maybe two or 3% of them at most.

00:23:47.940 So this is a statistically rare event

00:23:49.740 that is now going to be presented as an everyday affair.

00:23:53.280 And again, the problem here

00:23:54.900 is that when you put a target on the back of police,

00:23:58.620 what you do is encourage them to pull back.

00:24:03.340 And that has all kinds of impacts on these communities.

00:24:07.180 And the other thing we have to keep in mind

00:24:10.220 is that these people in the media

00:24:12.680 who are stoking the fire here

00:24:19.240 when it comes to police-community relations,

00:24:22.160 they're not speaking for the people

00:24:24.160 who live in these communities.

00:24:25.840 This whole defund the police movement,

00:24:27.940 this whole let's reduce resources

00:24:30.420 to law enforcement movement

00:24:31.860 is not a sentiment shared

00:24:33.740 according to poll after poll after poll

00:24:36.420 by the people who live in these communities

00:24:39.020 who repeatedly say

00:24:40.240 they want more police presence in their neighborhoods. 0.96

00:24:43.340 Black folks in this country 0.97

00:24:44.300 call the cops more than any other group. 0.99

00:24:47.440 That's hardly a way of showcasing

00:24:49.400 that you don't trust the police

00:24:50.860 or don't like the police

00:24:51.840 or don't want the police around.

00:24:53.480 But that is what these elites are telling us

00:24:55.340 people in these communities want.

00:24:57.260 And they're not speaking on behalf

00:24:58.840 of the people who live in these communities

00:25:00.440 who have to deal with this stuff firsthand.

00:25:02.380 Mm-hmm, that's exactly right.

00:25:04.100 They don't want demonization.

00:25:05.180 They don't want defunding.

00:25:06.540 Some police reform.

00:25:07.940 I've heard a lot of black activists

00:25:09.880 who are totally reasonable on these issues say,

00:25:11.900 yeah, let's talk about that.

00:25:13.300 Let's talk about community policing,

00:25:14.680 working with the cops and all that.

00:25:16.220 There's a way forward

00:25:17.180 without these crazy extreme measures.

00:25:20.380 This is not to say all cops are saints.

00:25:22.880 There are police who abuse their power.

00:25:26.200 They shouldn't be on the force.

00:25:27.340 I have no problem with making it easier

00:25:30.780 to fire bad cops.

00:25:32.860 I have no problem with that at all.

00:25:34.520 But the people who live in these communities,

00:25:36.740 as I have, who've gone to school in these communities,

00:25:39.800 as I have, worked in these communities,

00:25:41.940 know that the problem is not the policing.

00:25:45.240 The problem is the criminal behavior.

00:25:47.880 They know that.

00:25:48.880 The cops know that too.

00:25:50.440 And these elites go on television

00:25:51.840 and pretend that is not the case.

00:25:54.180 And that's what I take issue with.

00:25:56.100 Right.

00:25:56.920 And so the demonization of cops will go on

00:25:59.080 because that's what the media does in particular.

00:26:01.220 And the softening on crime

00:26:03.120 will continue in these big cities,

00:26:05.100 notwithstanding the murder rates spiking.

00:26:07.220 I mean, it's crazy.

00:26:07.800 When you see the mayor of London,

00:26:09.040 I always say that the mayor of San Francisco,

00:26:11.120 London Breed,

00:26:12.120 out there begging her DA,

00:26:16.240 Bill Ayers' adopted son,

00:26:18.240 to get out there and enforce the law

00:26:20.400 against the criminals,

00:26:21.400 you really reached a tipping point.

00:26:23.640 And yet, no, so far it doesn't.

00:26:25.440 But that's what happens

00:26:26.280 when you elect Bill Ayers' adopted son

00:26:29.580 as your DA.

00:26:30.960 Don't hire the child 0.94

00:26:32.440 of two domestic terrorists

00:26:33.780 to enforce the law.

00:26:36.020 And one of the other downstream effects

00:26:37.660 of this uptick in crime, Megan,

00:26:40.280 is that it's very hard

00:26:41.680 for upward mobility

00:26:43.000 to take place in communities,

00:26:44.580 in violent communities.

00:26:45.920 And so you see, you know,

00:26:47.480 businesses leave

00:26:49.120 crime-prone neighborhoods.

00:26:51.220 Jobs follow.

00:26:52.400 Property values fall.

00:26:53.640 I mean, that is one of the reasons

00:26:56.460 that you want law and order

00:26:58.880 in these neighborhoods.

00:27:00.720 That's a great point.

00:27:01.980 There will be no upward mobility

00:27:03.480 in violent communities.

00:27:05.220 That's a great point.

00:27:05.980 And to your point,

00:27:06.840 of course,

00:27:07.660 one of the protesters

00:27:08.800 was bringing the message

00:27:10.980 along those lines

00:27:12.060 to the protesters

00:27:12.740 over the weekend,

00:27:13.780 saying,

00:27:14.420 OK, what are we going to do

00:27:15.180 in this neighborhood now? 0.99

00:27:16.980 Burn it. 1.00

00:27:18.080 Burn it. 1.00

00:27:18.620 And burn the police precincts. 1.00

00:27:20.500 Listen here. 0.96

00:27:22.440 Fill your anger fully.

00:27:24.860 Be mad.

00:27:26.700 Be mad.

00:27:29.920 Because your anger is justified.

00:27:34.260 Build barricades. 0.89

00:27:35.860 Burn precincts.

00:27:37.440 Reappropriate what they've stolen

00:27:38.980 for you for thousands

00:27:40.080 of generations.

00:27:41.020 Most of all,

00:27:45.760 show love to one another.

00:27:47.440 Radical love.

00:27:48.880 And show absolute hate

00:27:50.900 to those who oppress us.

00:27:53.800 Power to the looters.

00:27:55.600 Power to the rioters.

00:27:56.900 Say his name.

00:27:58.500 Amirah.

00:27:59.420 Say his name.

00:28:00.700 Amirah.

00:28:01.680 Say his name.

00:28:02.880 Amirah.

00:28:03.460 Thoughts on that one?

00:28:07.960 Well, this is, again,

00:28:09.180 a reprise of what we've seen

00:28:11.880 in the past in this country.

00:28:13.680 If you go back to the rioting

00:28:15.540 of the 60s

00:28:16.360 in Watts section of Los Angeles,

00:28:19.220 in Detroit,

00:28:20.660 in Newark,

00:28:21.600 in Baltimore,

00:28:22.940 I mean,

00:28:23.360 you're talking a half century ago.

00:28:25.140 Some of those communities

00:28:26.060 still have not recovered

00:28:27.140 from the rioting

00:28:28.180 that took place back then.

00:28:29.740 So you can do

00:28:31.320 long, long-term damage

00:28:33.060 to these communities

00:28:34.460 when you promote violence

00:28:37.680 in the way

00:28:38.040 that this is being promoted.

00:28:39.900 It is not in the interest

00:28:40.920 of helping the people

00:28:42.820 who live in these communities.

00:28:44.240 The activists raise money

00:28:45.480 doing it.

00:28:46.880 Stay relevant.

00:28:48.200 But you're not helping

00:28:49.440 low-income minorities

00:28:51.060 when you encourage them

00:28:52.240 to behave in this way.

00:28:53.940 And again,

00:28:54.940 you're talking about

00:28:56.460 mostly in these communities,

00:28:58.740 most of the people

00:28:59.840 are law-abiding.

00:29:01.480 That's the problem.

00:29:02.420 They live there

00:29:03.740 for lack of resources,

00:29:04.880 but most of them

00:29:05.620 obey the law.

00:29:06.820 They want safe schools.

00:29:08.140 They want safe streets.

00:29:09.340 That's all they want.

00:29:10.840 And by siding

00:29:12.720 with the criminals

00:29:13.580 who prey mostly

00:29:15.560 on their neighbors,

00:29:16.720 you simply are not

00:29:17.680 doing these communities

00:29:18.760 any favors.

00:29:19.860 Yeah.

00:29:20.200 And the urge

00:29:21.420 to encourage hate

00:29:22.740 against one's oppressors

00:29:24.240 while burning police precincts

00:29:26.080 is probably not

00:29:26.760 the way to go.

00:29:28.040 But, Jason,

00:29:29.160 stand by,

00:29:29.620 because we're going to

00:29:30.040 squeeze in a quick break.

00:29:30.900 And we're going to come back

00:29:31.940 and we're going to talk

00:29:32.540 about his latest book

00:29:33.820 called The Black Boom.

00:29:35.860 And it talks,

00:29:36.380 the book is about the economy

00:29:37.840 and how black Americans

00:29:40.100 did a hell of a lot better

00:29:41.380 under Donald Trump

00:29:42.380 than the media

00:29:43.840 will ever tell you.

00:29:44.720 That's my own short synopsis.

00:29:46.040 That's not the whole book,

00:29:46.780 but it's got some really

00:29:47.380 interesting points in it.

00:29:54.540 Jason,

00:29:55.100 I'll let you describe it,

00:29:56.840 but my takeaway on this is

00:29:58.040 President Unity,

00:29:59.500 who we have right now,

00:30:00.780 who's running around

00:30:01.340 calling everybody

00:30:01.960 Bull Connor

00:30:02.540 if they don't support

00:30:03.400 his agenda,

00:30:04.580 hasn't exactly been

00:30:06.400 the most unifying force.

00:30:08.360 And the economy

00:30:09.700 under Joe Biden

00:30:10.880 and under a black president 0.82

00:30:12.560 for whom he was

00:30:13.880 vice president,

00:30:14.760 Barack Obama,

00:30:15.600 was not as good 0.94

00:30:16.680 for black voters

00:30:17.380 as it was under

00:30:18.900 the man they've told us 0.97

00:30:20.120 is a devil racist hater, 1.00

00:30:22.380 Donald Trump. 1.00

00:30:24.000 You're exactly right. 0.96

00:30:25.760 The blacks in this country 1.00

00:30:29.400 fared far better

00:30:30.960 economically

00:30:31.620 under President Trump

00:30:34.820 prior to the pandemic

00:30:35.900 than they ever did

00:30:37.060 under President Obama.

00:30:38.900 And that's one of the reasons

00:30:40.160 I wanted to write

00:30:41.360 this book.

00:30:42.380 It's a story

00:30:43.180 that I think

00:30:44.320 was underreported

00:30:45.740 because the media

00:30:47.080 largely had it in

00:30:48.100 for President Trump

00:30:49.260 from day one.

00:30:50.220 They were quite surprised

00:30:51.640 that he won the election

00:30:52.980 and then spent

00:30:53.800 all of his presidency

00:30:55.500 resisting him

00:30:56.500 instead of covering him.

00:30:58.460 And if they had done

00:30:59.780 their job

00:31:00.380 and reported

00:31:01.000 what was happening

00:31:02.300 in terms of economic

00:31:03.780 inequality

00:31:04.380 under President Trump,

00:31:06.220 they would have had

00:31:07.280 a great story to tell

00:31:08.440 about shrinking

00:31:09.600 income inequality,

00:31:11.680 something they obsess over.

00:31:13.660 And what this really was

00:31:15.040 is a function

00:31:15.720 of the working class

00:31:18.120 writ large

00:31:19.260 getting a boom

00:31:20.020 under Trump.

00:31:20.940 And it just so happens 0.99

00:31:21.760 that Blacks 1.00

00:31:22.320 are disproportionately 0.60

00:31:23.040 represented

00:31:25.220 among the working class.

00:31:26.940 So we saw

00:31:27.460 racial inequality

00:31:28.740 shrinking

00:31:29.560 under President Trump

00:31:31.600 who was presented

00:31:32.220 in the media

00:31:32.820 as this bigot

00:31:34.140 whose policies

00:31:34.880 would harm

00:31:35.580 the prospects 0.95

00:31:36.520 of Blacks. 0.70

00:31:37.280 Instead, 0.99

00:31:37.640 we saw

00:31:38.060 record low

00:31:39.380 unemployment rates,

00:31:41.200 record low

00:31:41.760 poverty rates,

00:31:42.720 and we saw

00:31:43.320 the wages

00:31:43.840 of Black workers 0.76

00:31:44.820 rising at a faster

00:31:46.120 rate than the wages

00:31:47.560 of white workers.

00:31:49.580 That's,

00:31:50.220 I mean,

00:31:50.620 that's crazy.

00:31:51.480 And yet,

00:31:51.960 it totally explains

00:31:53.220 why Trump

00:31:54.160 did improve

00:31:54.680 his numbers

00:31:55.080 with the Black vote

00:31:56.280 second time around,

00:31:57.660 with a Hispanic vote

00:31:58.780 second time around,

00:32:00.380 because those folks

00:32:01.620 were thinking about

00:32:02.460 what was in their wallet,

00:32:03.860 not what was on MSNBC.

00:32:07.180 Absolutely.

00:32:08.180 And, you know,

00:32:09.940 one of the problems

00:32:10.760 you mentioned,

00:32:11.280 Joe Biden,

00:32:11.780 and the policies

00:32:12.380 he's putting forward here,

00:32:14.600 one of the concerns

00:32:15.580 I have

00:32:16.320 is that he wants

00:32:17.240 to reverse

00:32:17.880 a lot of what

00:32:19.280 President Trump

00:32:20.120 was doing

00:32:20.600 in terms of

00:32:21.080 economic policy,

00:32:22.340 reversing the tax cuts,

00:32:24.580 re-regulating

00:32:25.380 sectors of the economy

00:32:26.760 that were less regulated

00:32:28.040 under Donald Trump.

00:32:29.620 And I'm concerned

00:32:31.160 that they will lead

00:32:31.900 to the same outcomes

00:32:32.900 we saw pre-Trump

00:32:34.360 in these minority communities.

00:32:36.160 And we shouldn't

00:32:36.740 be going backwards.

00:32:37.580 And maybe if more people

00:32:38.440 knew about

00:32:39.620 this economic good news story

00:32:41.480 that occurred under Trump,

00:32:43.020 there'll be more resistance

00:32:43.880 to the types of policies

00:32:46.020 that Joe Biden

00:32:46.860 wants to take us back to.

00:32:48.680 But you're absolutely right.

00:32:49.840 I think

00:32:50.180 this economic prosperity

00:32:53.100 that we saw

00:32:53.780 in Black communities

00:32:55.000 goes a long way

00:32:56.060 towards explaining

00:32:56.940 why Donald Trump

00:33:00.020 improved to showing

00:33:01.100 among both Blacks

00:33:02.500 and Hispanics,

00:33:03.200 and particularly men

00:33:04.060 in both of those groups,

00:33:05.660 when he ran for re-election.

00:33:07.100 So even though

00:33:07.600 he didn't win,

00:33:08.640 I think that's part

00:33:09.800 of the reason

00:33:10.200 why you saw

00:33:10.760 an uptick in Black support

00:33:12.040 and an uptick

00:33:12.980 in Hispanic support.

00:33:14.260 Mm-hmm.

00:33:14.660 You write in the book

00:33:15.400 about,

00:33:15.840 we covered this

00:33:16.600 at the time,

00:33:17.420 is it Star County, Texas,

00:33:19.580 that had gone

00:33:21.260 30 points,

00:33:23.020 or 60,

00:33:23.780 60 points

00:33:24.520 for Hillary Clinton?

00:33:25.680 Yeah, can you tell us that?

00:33:26.720 Because that's such a stark example.

00:33:27.840 I think that was

00:33:28.500 a county

00:33:29.820 in southern Texas

00:33:32.080 that Hillary Clinton

00:33:33.400 had won overwhelmingly

00:33:34.820 and Biden

00:33:35.660 barely won.

00:33:37.120 And it just shows you

00:33:38.460 what the priorities are

00:33:40.760 of some of the people

00:33:42.160 who live

00:33:42.740 in these communities.

00:33:44.700 Heavily Hispanic 1.00

00:33:46.560 county.

00:33:47.820 Yeah,

00:33:48.280 very Hispanic county.

00:33:49.500 And what you're seeing here

00:33:50.580 is,

00:33:51.180 you know,

00:33:51.460 during the lockdowns,

00:33:52.520 a lot of people

00:33:53.180 could work from home

00:33:54.100 and continue doing their job.

00:33:56.620 But a lot of the folks

00:33:57.660 we're talking about,

00:33:58.420 these low-income minorities,

00:33:59.740 could not.

00:34:00.440 They were in the service sector,

00:34:01.520 they were in hospitality.

00:34:03.020 And I think that Trump's emphasis

00:34:04.460 on reopening the economy

00:34:06.140 really resonated with them.

00:34:08.220 And that's why we saw

00:34:09.140 that showing

00:34:10.080 in his re-elect numbers.

00:34:12.420 Also,

00:34:13.000 they've had bigger paychecks.

00:34:14.620 I mean,

00:34:14.840 it's hard.

00:34:15.920 We have to remember

00:34:16.720 just how bad things were

00:34:18.420 for Black Americans

00:34:19.720 economically

00:34:20.480 throughout most

00:34:21.640 of Barack Obama's presidency.

00:34:23.580 It was not until

00:34:24.640 the seventh year

00:34:25.780 of the Obama presidency

00:34:27.360 that the Black

00:34:28.700 unemployment rate

00:34:29.600 fell below double digits,

00:34:31.340 Megan.

00:34:32.040 I mean,

00:34:32.460 Black folks had it 1.00

00:34:33.460 really hard economically

00:34:34.980 under Obama.

00:34:36.900 Things have improved

00:34:37.700 He would say

00:34:38.140 that's because

00:34:38.600 he inherited a mess,

00:34:39.800 right,

00:34:40.020 with the financial crisis.

00:34:41.260 He did,

00:34:42.080 but historically,

00:34:43.940 the deeper the recession,

00:34:46.100 the more robust

00:34:47.060 the recovery.

00:34:48.180 That has been

00:34:48.680 the pattern historically.

00:34:50.160 That is not

00:34:50.920 what happened

00:34:51.560 under Obama.

00:34:53.060 We saw

00:34:53.440 the slowest

00:34:54.480 economic recovery

00:34:55.660 in the post-war period

00:34:58.180 under Obama.

00:34:59.680 And then

00:35:00.120 when Trump

00:35:00.740 got into office,

00:35:01.820 he cut taxes,

00:35:03.080 he deregulated,

00:35:04.480 he focused on

00:35:05.440 growing the economy,

00:35:06.460 and we saw

00:35:07.680 an acceleration

00:35:08.720 in growth,

00:35:09.800 disproportionately

00:35:10.520 helping these groups, 0.58

00:35:12.900 Blacks and Hispanics 1.00

00:35:14.220 and low-income

00:35:15.180 working-class Americans

00:35:16.580 in general.

00:35:17.520 And I think

00:35:17.940 it was related

00:35:18.660 to these policies

00:35:19.800 that he put in place.

00:35:21.020 This is not a book

00:35:22.180 that defends

00:35:22.980 Donald Trump's character.

00:35:24.980 This is a book

00:35:25.760 that defends

00:35:26.660 free-market

00:35:27.320 economic policies.

00:35:29.000 And Donald Trump

00:35:30.020 put in place

00:35:30.600 a lot of free-market

00:35:31.580 economic policies

00:35:32.660 to the benefit

00:35:33.580 of a lot of

00:35:34.380 low-income Americans,

00:35:35.400 a disproportionate number

00:35:36.220 of whom 0.54

00:35:36.560 happened to be Black.

00:35:38.000 Well, that's the thing. 0.93

00:35:38.860 Like, you can dislike

00:35:39.720 a lot of what Trump

00:35:40.740 tweeted and said,

00:35:42.520 but separate yourself

00:35:44.620 and the way

00:35:45.140 he made you feel

00:35:46.060 in response

00:35:46.900 to reading these things

00:35:47.800 from what the policies

00:35:49.340 did for your fellow Americans.

00:35:51.080 Like, did they work

00:35:51.900 or didn't they?

00:35:52.560 Are we helping the groups

00:35:53.740 that most need help

00:35:54.520 or aren't we?

00:35:55.380 That's what an adult does,

00:35:57.180 not a child

00:35:58.620 who wants to make it

00:35:59.260 all about him or her.

00:36:00.660 It's also what the media

00:36:01.940 should be doing

00:36:02.920 when they're doing

00:36:03.560 their jobs.

00:36:04.160 And I take the media

00:36:05.080 to task in this book

00:36:06.220 for not doing their jobs,

00:36:07.980 for not following

00:36:08.840 the practices

00:36:10.440 that they traditionally

00:36:11.580 had followed

00:36:12.360 in covering a president.

00:36:14.140 And I think it really

00:36:14.960 was to the detriment

00:36:15.920 of, you know,

00:36:18.980 not only their own

00:36:19.720 profession,

00:36:20.180 because who knows

00:36:20.960 how long,

00:36:21.540 if ever,

00:36:22.200 it will take

00:36:22.780 for the media

00:36:23.540 to recover

00:36:24.080 the credibility

00:36:24.780 it lost

00:36:25.500 in the way

00:36:26.260 it covered Donald Trump.

00:36:27.340 But we are just,

00:36:29.100 our conversations

00:36:30.080 in this country

00:36:31.520 are more divisive

00:36:33.040 and all the rest

00:36:34.760 because of the way

00:36:35.860 the media

00:36:36.460 covered this president.

00:36:38.420 And like I said,

00:36:39.420 I think this is a very,

00:36:40.480 very underreported story

00:36:42.340 about the economic gains

00:36:44.000 that certain groups

00:36:44.700 are having.

00:36:45.540 And the media

00:36:46.660 simply played them down

00:36:47.800 or didn't cover them

00:36:48.900 at all

00:36:49.220 because they wanted

00:36:50.840 to present this president 0.95

00:36:52.140 as anti-black, 0.98

00:36:53.120 as a racist, 0.99

00:36:54.160 and insisted

00:36:55.400 that his policy

00:36:56.120 would be harmful.

00:36:57.340 And so,

00:36:57.820 of course,

00:36:58.100 reporting this

00:36:58.700 would undermine

00:36:59.220 that narrative

00:36:59.880 that they chose

00:37:00.480 to go with

00:37:01.060 even if it was not

00:37:02.260 rooted in the truth.

00:37:03.560 Well,

00:37:03.600 and you point out

00:37:04.060 in the book

00:37:04.420 that,

00:37:05.080 yes,

00:37:06.000 you know,

00:37:06.820 the economy

00:37:07.220 was finally

00:37:08.020 starting to do better

00:37:08.940 in Obama's

00:37:09.680 seventh year.

00:37:11.320 So it wasn't like

00:37:12.240 Trump took over

00:37:12.840 from him

00:37:13.200 in year three

00:37:13.880 of Obama's term,

00:37:15.040 but that even

00:37:16.460 Larry Summers

00:37:17.200 had predicted

00:37:18.260 that we were

00:37:19.320 going to go back

00:37:20.100 potentially into a recession.

00:37:21.420 Like,

00:37:21.580 the people under Obama

00:37:22.720 were not predicting

00:37:23.960 growth.

00:37:25.600 Trump came in

00:37:26.660 and gave us

00:37:27.440 growth,

00:37:27.840 notwithstanding

00:37:28.560 all the experts

00:37:29.600 saying,

00:37:30.040 don't expect that.

00:37:31.060 That's not how

00:37:31.520 the Trump presidency

00:37:32.180 is going to go.

00:37:32.800 That's not where

00:37:33.240 the economy is going.

00:37:34.840 Well,

00:37:35.000 you had two things

00:37:35.700 going on.

00:37:36.080 The last year

00:37:37.140 of the Obama

00:37:39.440 presidency,

00:37:40.580 economic growth

00:37:41.640 fell by 50%

00:37:43.460 from what it had

00:37:44.580 been in the previous

00:37:45.140 year.

00:37:45.640 And people like

00:37:46.460 Larry Summers

00:37:47.060 feared that we

00:37:47.580 were headed

00:37:47.860 into another

00:37:48.520 recession.

00:37:49.820 Trump did not

00:37:50.380 inherit a growing

00:37:51.260 economy.

00:37:51.740 He inherited

00:37:52.720 a slowing

00:37:53.600 economy

00:37:54.620 under Obama.

00:37:56.060 And it wasn't

00:37:56.480 just Larry Summers

00:37:57.340 who was predicting

00:37:57.960 this.

00:37:58.480 The Federal Reserve

00:37:59.240 was predicting

00:38:00.340 this.

00:38:01.280 The Congressional

00:38:02.120 Budget Office

00:38:02.780 was predicting

00:38:03.620 this.

00:38:03.960 Everyone thought

00:38:04.480 we were at the

00:38:04.940 end of a business

00:38:05.500 cycle.

00:38:06.700 Unemployment

00:38:07.240 can't go any

00:38:07.900 lower.

00:38:08.580 Job growth

00:38:09.080 can't go any

00:38:09.680 faster without

00:38:10.880 inflationary concerns

00:38:12.580 coming into play.

00:38:13.680 And Trump proved

00:38:14.780 them all wrong

00:38:15.600 and never got

00:38:17.020 any credit for it.

00:38:17.920 Everyone said

00:38:19.500 we saw this

00:38:20.480 boom and

00:38:21.760 everyone said,

00:38:22.360 oh, this is

00:38:22.680 just a continuation

00:38:23.360 of what was

00:38:24.040 going on under

00:38:25.060 Obama.

00:38:25.580 Obama was

00:38:26.160 claiming this

00:38:26.780 two years

00:38:27.220 into the

00:38:27.540 Trump presidency.

00:38:28.400 Obama was

00:38:29.140 taking credit

00:38:29.760 for the economic

00:38:30.680 growth.

00:38:31.180 We saw Biden

00:38:31.960 was taking

00:38:32.460 credit for it.

00:38:33.480 So, again,

00:38:33.860 this is just

00:38:34.380 the media

00:38:35.260 simply not

00:38:36.200 doing its job.

00:38:37.300 Yeah, no,

00:38:37.740 we have that.

00:38:38.240 Listen, here's

00:38:38.600 Obama.

00:38:39.260 I think it was

00:38:39.740 the year was

00:38:40.960 October 2020.

00:38:42.880 2020, right,

00:38:44.260 because he was

00:38:44.600 trying to help

00:38:44.960 Biden get elected,

00:38:46.000 running around

00:38:46.340 saying this,

00:38:46.780 and it was

00:38:47.000 parroted and

00:38:47.520 totally accepted

00:38:48.140 by all the

00:38:48.580 media.

00:38:48.880 Listen to him.

00:38:49.540 It's not

00:38:50.100 that complicated.

00:38:52.460 Donald Trump

00:38:53.300 likes to claim

00:38:54.420 he built

00:38:54.860 this economy,

00:38:55.520 but I just

00:38:56.560 want to remind

00:38:57.220 you that

00:38:57.640 America created 0.94

00:38:58.940 1.5 million

00:39:00.080 more jobs

00:39:01.560 in the last

00:39:02.820 three years

00:39:03.420 of the Obama

00:39:03.980 Biden administration

00:39:05.180 than in the

00:39:06.580 first three years

00:39:07.900 of the Trump

00:39:08.480 Pence administration.

00:39:10.800 That's a fact.

00:39:12.060 Look it up.

00:39:17.520 And that was

00:39:18.280 before Trump

00:39:20.200 could blame

00:39:20.660 the pandemic.

00:39:21.780 He, in fact,

00:39:23.040 inherited the

00:39:24.320 longest streak

00:39:25.100 of job growth

00:39:25.800 in American

00:39:26.260 history.

00:39:27.380 But just like

00:39:28.300 everything else

00:39:28.820 he inherited,

00:39:30.040 he screwed it up.

00:39:32.640 So is that

00:39:33.440 true?

00:39:34.040 No, no,

00:39:34.860 it's not true.

00:39:37.680 The Obama 0.54

00:39:40.700 defenders are

00:39:41.640 trying to

00:39:42.640 present a sort

00:39:43.940 of heads-eye-win,

00:39:45.040 tails-you-lose

00:39:45.720 argument here.

00:39:46.960 They were

00:39:47.640 predicting

00:39:48.100 economic

00:39:48.680 catastrophe

00:39:49.340 under Trump.

00:39:51.120 And if it

00:39:51.580 had happened,

00:39:52.560 I don't think

00:39:53.360 they would have

00:39:53.820 blamed it

00:39:54.240 on Obama.

00:39:55.720 But because

00:39:57.000 it didn't

00:39:57.720 happen,

00:39:58.440 they want

00:39:59.960 to give

00:40:00.280 Obama credit

00:40:01.120 for it.

00:40:01.660 I mean,

00:40:01.920 you can't

00:40:02.420 have it

00:40:02.740 both ways,

00:40:04.100 Megan,

00:40:04.360 but the

00:40:04.620 truth is

00:40:05.020 that the

00:40:06.640 growth

00:40:07.300 accelerated

00:40:08.460 under Trump.

00:40:10.120 It accelerated.

00:40:11.440 You can't

00:40:11.860 give Obama

00:40:12.460 credit for

00:40:13.760 a situation

00:40:14.360 that improved

00:40:15.460 markedly

00:40:16.420 under his

00:40:16.940 successor,

00:40:18.040 not under

00:40:18.580 Obama.

00:40:19.180 Whether we're

00:40:19.540 talking about

00:40:20.120 jobs,

00:40:21.040 whether we're

00:40:21.360 talking about

00:40:21.820 economic growth,

00:40:23.020 and again,

00:40:23.960 against all

00:40:24.720 these expectations

00:40:25.780 that said

00:40:26.700 otherwise,

00:40:27.520 this is what

00:40:28.520 the Trump

00:40:29.380 administration

00:40:29.820 produced prior

00:40:31.020 to the

00:40:31.740 pandemic.

00:40:32.420 So no,

00:40:32.960 I don't think

00:40:33.660 Obama deserves

00:40:34.540 credit for what

00:40:35.960 we saw under

00:40:36.640 Trump.

00:40:37.080 And I go

00:40:37.940 into the

00:40:38.320 details in the

00:40:38.980 book.

00:40:39.980 You're right,

00:40:40.520 and as the

00:40:40.820 book points out,

00:40:41.620 in particular,

00:40:42.200 for people

00:40:43.280 of lower

00:40:44.500 socioeconomic

00:40:45.260 status,

00:40:46.180 white working

00:40:46.920 class,

00:40:47.280 yes,

00:40:47.520 but also

00:40:47.900 blacks and

00:40:48.400 Hispanics and 0.92

00:40:49.400 all the groups

00:40:49.900 that we were

00:40:50.220 told he reviled.

00:40:51.880 He helped them

00:40:52.640 more than anybody.

00:40:53.480 And even I had

00:40:54.300 Brianna Joy Gray on

00:40:55.120 the show not long

00:40:55.660 ago who worked

00:40:56.160 for Bernie.

00:40:57.340 She was making

00:40:57.840 the point,

00:40:58.160 all the Trump

00:40:58.580 policies only

00:40:59.160 helped corporate

00:40:59.700 America.

00:41:00.140 That's it.

00:41:00.800 And this book

00:41:01.360 really makes the

00:41:01.940 opposite point.

00:41:02.880 No,

00:41:03.220 it actually,

00:41:03.880 his policies

00:41:04.440 really helped

00:41:05.240 the working

00:41:06.140 class in a way

00:41:07.220 we're no longer

00:41:08.100 seeing.

00:41:09.220 And it's not

00:41:09.580 all about

00:41:10.060 Trump.

00:41:10.720 It's about

00:41:11.080 those policies

00:41:12.020 which tend

00:41:12.500 to be more

00:41:12.920 right-leaning

00:41:13.360 and which could

00:41:14.360 be repeated

00:41:14.980 if we had

00:41:15.880 somebody who

00:41:16.240 would pay

00:41:16.460 attention.

00:41:16.960 All right,

00:41:17.140 stand by

00:41:17.580 because there's

00:41:17.940 a lot more

00:41:18.240 to get to.

00:41:18.720 And I've

00:41:19.060 got to ask

00:41:19.580 you about

00:41:19.940 what's

00:41:20.980 happening now

00:41:21.500 as this

00:41:22.120 big case

00:41:23.520 goes up

00:41:23.840 to the

00:41:24.060 Supreme

00:41:24.300 Court.

00:41:24.720 It'll be

00:41:24.980 in the

00:41:25.240 fall,

00:41:26.200 asking whether

00:41:27.460 race-based

00:41:28.980 preferences

00:41:29.640 can live

00:41:30.340 on in the

00:41:31.580 college

00:41:31.980 admissions

00:41:32.660 process.

00:41:33.440 I know

00:41:33.600 you've

00:41:33.760 written a lot

00:41:34.160 about this

00:41:34.600 and what

00:41:34.820 happened in

00:41:35.120 California.

00:41:35.860 I want to

00:41:36.260 get your

00:41:36.480 take on how

00:41:37.520 this is likely

00:41:37.980 to go more

00:41:38.880 with Jason

00:41:39.440 Riley,

00:41:40.140 the greatest

00:41:40.620 in two

00:41:41.540 minutes.

00:41:42.000 And don't

00:41:42.200 forget,

00:41:42.520 folks,

00:41:42.680 you can find

00:41:43.040 the Megan

00:41:43.320 Kelly show

00:41:43.780 live on

00:41:44.700 Sirius XM

00:41:45.440 Triumph

00:41:45.980 Channel 111

00:41:46.860 every weekday,

00:41:48.240 noon east,

00:41:49.080 and the full

00:41:49.600 video show and

00:41:50.240 clips by

00:41:50.860 subscribing to

00:41:51.500 our YouTube

00:41:51.880 channel,

00:41:52.620 youtube.com

00:41:53.220 slash Megan

00:41:53.720 Kelly.

00:41:54.300 If you prefer

00:41:54.880 an audio

00:41:55.380 podcast,

00:41:56.060 you subscribe

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00:42:00.240 get your

00:42:00.480 podcasts for

00:42:01.040 free.

00:42:01.680 And there

00:42:01.960 you'll find

00:42:02.320 our full

00:42:02.800 archives,

00:42:03.540 more than

00:42:04.040 250 shows

00:42:04.920 including,

00:42:05.500 and you should

00:42:05.800 definitely go

00:42:06.520 back and listen

00:42:07.120 to the first

00:42:08.040 time Jason

00:42:08.760 was on

00:42:09.280 episode 115.

00:42:11.480 You're welcome.

00:42:19.380 So Jason,

00:42:20.260 let's talk

00:42:20.640 about,

00:42:21.180 speaking of

00:42:21.600 what's coming

00:42:22.080 up,

00:42:22.920 SCOTUS,

00:42:23.340 the Supreme

00:42:23.620 Court,

00:42:23.880 has taken a

00:42:24.320 case that

00:42:24.700 they're going

00:42:24.980 to hear in

00:42:25.360 the fall

00:42:25.740 on whether

00:42:26.840 it's okay

00:42:27.760 for colleges

00:42:28.280 to continue

00:42:28.860 using race

00:42:30.180 as a factor

00:42:32.140 in college

00:42:33.160 admissions.

00:42:34.100 Quotas are

00:42:34.480 not allowed,

00:42:35.000 they haven't

00:42:35.240 been allowed

00:42:35.600 for decades,

00:42:36.400 but I

00:42:37.540 was at

00:42:37.880 the Supreme

00:42:38.240 Court case

00:42:38.680 when they

00:42:38.900 argued it

00:42:39.220 back in

00:42:39.520 2002 or

00:42:40.240 2003 where

00:42:41.780 they said

00:42:42.300 we're still

00:42:43.000 going to

00:42:43.200 allow it.

00:42:43.720 It can be

00:42:44.060 a factor.

00:42:45.200 We're not

00:42:45.660 ready to

00:42:46.080 throw away

00:42:46.660 this program

00:42:47.300 yet.

00:42:48.240 And at

00:42:48.560 that point

00:42:48.940 the court

00:42:49.260 said maybe

00:42:50.220 in 25

00:42:51.400 years we

00:42:51.980 hope to

00:42:52.520 never have

00:42:53.100 to allow

00:42:53.620 this.

00:42:53.900 Like in

00:42:54.080 25 years

00:42:54.560 we hope

00:42:54.780 this will

00:42:54.980 go away. 0.82

00:42:55.760 Then the

00:42:56.520 Roberts

00:42:57.020 court issued

00:42:58.020 a similar

00:42:58.360 ruling as

00:42:58.900 recently as

00:42:59.340 2016 allowing

00:43:00.440 it.

00:43:01.220 Now it

00:43:01.400 goes back

00:43:01.800 up there

00:43:02.260 and it's

00:43:04.340 Harvard in

00:43:04.780 particular and

00:43:05.260 UNC Chapel

00:43:05.960 Hill I

00:43:06.280 think that

00:43:06.600 are that

00:43:07.140 are defending

00:43:07.620 using race

00:43:08.560 in their

00:43:08.780 admissions

00:43:09.100 practices but

00:43:09.860 they all

00:43:10.180 do it.

00:43:11.640 And this we

00:43:12.680 have a history

00:43:13.420 to look at to

00:43:14.120 tell us whether

00:43:14.880 if the Supreme

00:43:15.800 Court says you

00:43:16.580 know what we're

00:43:17.060 at the point no

00:43:17.720 more no more

00:43:18.460 of this.

00:43:19.180 We don't we

00:43:20.040 don't solve

00:43:20.500 racial issues by

00:43:21.420 becoming more

00:43:22.260 racial.

00:43:23.480 And if they

00:43:24.140 throw out the

00:43:24.720 ability to use

00:43:25.420 racism as a

00:43:26.440 criterion.

00:43:28.720 Look we can

00:43:29.580 look at what

00:43:29.940 happened in

00:43:30.280 California something

00:43:31.000 you've studied as

00:43:31.640 well.

00:43:31.800 So walk us

00:43:32.760 through what's

00:43:33.400 at stake here

00:43:33.920 and how it's

00:43:34.360 likely to go.

00:43:35.900 Well I'm

00:43:36.640 pretty excited

00:43:37.520 about it.

00:43:38.440 As you just

00:43:39.180 described the

00:43:39.860 court has been

00:43:40.400 kicking the can

00:43:41.200 on this issue

00:43:42.120 for decades

00:43:43.520 telling schools

00:43:44.820 it can be race

00:43:45.680 can be a

00:43:46.200 factor as long

00:43:47.520 as it's not

00:43:47.920 the deciding

00:43:48.460 factor.

00:43:49.840 But schools

00:43:50.700 have clearly

00:43:51.260 let race

00:43:52.400 become the

00:43:52.900 deciding factor

00:43:53.620 because they're

00:43:54.240 obsessed with

00:43:54.780 getting racial 0.55

00:43:55.300 balance on

00:43:56.580 campus.

00:43:56.940 So I'm

00:43:57.960 hoping that the

00:43:58.820 Supreme Court

00:43:59.740 will rule that

00:44:00.580 the Equal

00:44:00.980 Protection Clause

00:44:01.720 means what it

00:44:02.380 says.

00:44:02.780 The civil

00:44:03.060 rights laws

00:44:03.740 mean what

00:44:04.620 they say

00:44:05.100 that race

00:44:05.560 cannot be

00:44:06.220 used in a

00:44:08.080 discriminatory

00:44:08.660 way.

00:44:09.260 And the one

00:44:09.800 thing they also 0.67

00:44:10.340 have on their

00:44:10.840 side, Megan,

00:44:11.500 is public

00:44:12.100 opinion in

00:44:12.960 this area.

00:44:13.780 A lot of

00:44:14.100 people don't

00:44:14.640 know it but

00:44:15.540 polls have

00:44:16.060 consistently

00:44:16.500 shown that a

00:44:17.220 majority, not

00:44:18.520 only of

00:44:18.880 Americans overall

00:44:19.940 but a majority

00:44:20.900 of blacks, a 0.98

00:44:22.000 majority of

00:44:22.520 whites, a

00:44:23.420 majority of

00:44:24.220 Asians, a 1.00

00:44:25.220 majority of

00:44:25.600 Hispanics, all 1.00

00:44:26.540 support ending

00:44:28.120 the use of

00:44:29.380 racial preferences

00:44:30.300 and college

00:44:31.300 admissions.

00:44:31.720 So there's a

00:44:32.300 chance here for

00:44:33.320 the court to

00:44:33.860 do what's not

00:44:34.700 only right by

00:44:35.300 the Constitution

00:44:36.080 but popular in

00:44:38.220 this country

00:44:38.860 today, though

00:44:39.300 you'd never know

00:44:39.880 it from the

00:44:40.680 elites.

00:44:41.160 And, you know,

00:44:41.620 some people are

00:44:42.160 concerned about

00:44:42.920 the incrementalism

00:44:44.500 on the part of

00:44:45.140 Chief Justice

00:44:45.740 Roberts.

00:44:46.320 We don't want to

00:44:47.000 move too fast on

00:44:48.220 this.

00:44:48.440 But it's

00:44:48.700 interesting, in

00:44:49.220 my reporting, I'm

00:44:50.580 told on racial

00:44:51.600 issues he has not

00:44:52.520 been much of an

00:44:53.320 incrementalist.

00:44:54.080 He wasn't on the

00:44:54.780 voting rights case,

00:44:55.580 Shelby.

00:44:56.520 He wasn't in a

00:44:57.740 Seattle case

00:44:58.420 earlier about the

00:45:00.580 use of race.

00:45:01.640 And so on racial

00:45:02.500 issues, he's the

00:45:03.120 guy who said the

00:45:03.760 way to end racial

00:45:04.400 discrimination is

00:45:05.200 and discriminating

00:45:05.960 by race.

00:45:06.540 And so I'm pretty

00:45:08.160 confident that we

00:45:09.060 could maybe get a

00:45:10.040 6-3 ruling here in

00:45:11.120 the right way.

00:45:12.120 I think you're

00:45:12.480 right.

00:45:13.400 In California, back

00:45:14.700 in the 90s, they

00:45:15.480 said, you know

00:45:15.980 what, let's try

00:45:16.480 this.

00:45:16.760 Let's get rid of

00:45:17.620 race as one of

00:45:18.760 the factors that

00:45:19.320 you can consider on

00:45:20.700 college-based

00:45:21.200 admissions.

00:45:22.200 And everybody on

00:45:23.180 the left predicted,

00:45:23.960 oh, my God, this

00:45:24.760 is a catastrophe.

00:45:26.820 And the numbers

00:45:27.820 went down a bit in

00:45:28.940 terms of, I guess,

00:45:30.360 black enrollment at

00:45:31.360 their most elite

00:45:32.040 institutions within

00:45:33.020 the UCLA system.

00:45:35.620 But over time, my

00:45:37.680 understanding is that

00:45:39.040 got reversed and

00:45:40.700 blacks who were able 0.97

00:45:41.720 to graduate with

00:45:42.800 degrees in science and

00:45:44.080 some of the more sort

00:45:44.640 of hard sciences went

00:45:45.800 up.

00:45:47.180 And like the

00:45:48.400 matching system worked

00:45:49.320 much better because

00:45:50.180 we weren't just

00:45:50.940 putting people at

00:45:52.360 schools that they

00:45:53.040 where they couldn't

00:45:53.580 necessarily handle the

00:45:54.360 curriculum based on

00:45:55.500 their pigmentation.

00:45:57.420 Yes, exactly.

00:45:58.220 You're absolutely

00:45:58.760 right.

00:45:59.220 Recovery recovered

00:46:00.140 quite, I should say,

00:46:01.960 admissions of minority

00:46:03.280 students recovered

00:46:03.960 quite quickly, even at

00:46:05.400 the elite schools.

00:46:06.560 But overall, graduation

00:46:08.400 rates for both black

00:46:09.720 and Hispanics rose by

00:46:11.520 more than 50%,

00:46:12.600 including in the hard

00:46:14.080 sciences, as you

00:46:15.940 mentioned.

00:46:16.920 And so, yes, the

00:46:17.640 outcome was better.

00:46:18.640 And more

00:46:18.920 poignantly, you know,

00:46:20.300 in 2020, California

00:46:23.100 politicians and

00:46:24.360 liberals tried to

00:46:25.100 reverse what they

00:46:26.180 had done back in

00:46:26.860 the 90s and allow

00:46:27.700 race and admissions

00:46:28.400 again.

00:46:29.460 Californians, our

00:46:30.400 biggest state and our

00:46:31.380 most diverse state,

00:46:32.780 overwhelmingly rejected

00:46:34.280 going back to race-based 0.95

00:46:36.480 college admissions.

00:46:37.320 Again, what tells you

00:46:38.320 something about where

00:46:39.460 the country is on this

00:46:40.760 issue.

00:46:41.320 And a lot of Asians

00:46:42.520 got involved in this

00:46:43.720 because they know that

00:46:44.880 schools like Berkeley

00:46:46.120 and UCLA were 0.97

00:46:48.160 discriminating against

00:46:49.460 their students when it

00:46:51.060 came to racial

00:46:51.820 balancing.

00:46:52.500 So they were

00:46:52.960 especially opposed to

00:46:54.880 reversing, to going

00:46:55.740 back to the bad old

00:46:56.600 days of discrimination,

00:46:57.760 of racial discrimination.

00:46:58.860 And they also happened

00:46:59.800 to be the plaintiffs in

00:47:01.180 the Harvard case.

00:47:02.020 These are Asian

00:47:02.680 students who don't

00:47:04.020 like being

00:47:05.360 discriminated against.

00:47:07.000 It's no accident.

00:47:08.000 And we'll see.

00:47:08.900 It's not quite 25

00:47:09.800 years since that 2002

00:47:11.360 or 2003 case, but I

00:47:13.160 think we're close

00:47:13.660 enough and I think

00:47:14.520 you're right about how

00:47:15.300 it's going to go.

00:47:16.220 Jason, always a

00:47:16.860 pleasure.

00:47:17.400 Thank you so much for

00:47:18.100 being here.

00:47:18.640 Good luck with the

00:47:19.100 book.

00:47:19.460 Thank you.

00:47:20.160 Coming up, an

00:47:20.680 exclusive interview

00:47:21.300 with a doctor suing

00:47:22.220 her former employer

00:47:23.380 for racial

00:47:24.380 discrimination against

00:47:25.340 her.

00:47:31.000 A prominent

00:47:31.980 biracial doctor was

00:47:33.740 demoted for what she

00:47:35.260 believes was her

00:47:36.960 personal opposition to

00:47:38.120 critical race theory and

00:47:39.100 Black Lives Matter

00:47:39.780 after the death of

00:47:40.900 George Floyd.

00:47:41.440 It's not even just her

00:47:42.200 belief.

00:47:42.960 I mean, it's pretty much

00:47:43.720 in writing from the

00:47:44.620 hospital.

00:47:45.540 She is now taking

00:47:46.220 action against her

00:47:47.200 employer, claiming that

00:47:48.860 she's the one who

00:47:49.860 suffered racial

00:47:50.660 discrimination in this

00:47:51.900 case.

00:47:52.660 Joining us now for an

00:47:53.380 exclusive interview is

00:47:54.800 Dr. Tara Gustillo and

00:47:56.740 her lawyer, Daniel

00:47:57.720 Craig.

00:47:58.180 Welcome to you both.

00:47:59.120 Thank you so much for

00:47:59.660 being here.

00:48:00.580 Afternoon, Megan.

00:48:01.720 Sure.

00:48:02.300 So let me start with

00:48:03.100 you.

00:48:03.320 So you're a very well

00:48:04.620 respected doctor, trained

00:48:06.720 at the best institutions,

00:48:07.900 and you wind up

00:48:09.760 chairing, not just

00:48:11.120 working, you're an OBGYN,

00:48:12.800 but not just practicing

00:48:13.960 medicine, but chairing the

00:48:15.140 entire department at

00:48:16.920 is it is it

00:48:18.160 Hennepin?

00:48:19.280 What's the name of the

00:48:20.080 institution?

00:48:20.680 I want to get it

00:48:21.320 in health care system.

00:48:23.060 OK, where is that?

00:48:24.680 It's in Minneapolis,

00:48:25.780 Minnesota.

00:48:26.720 OK.

00:48:27.140 And how long were you the

00:48:28.140 chair of the department?

00:48:29.300 So I was interim chair

00:48:30.860 for about three and a half

00:48:32.160 years, and then I was

00:48:33.480 a permanent chair for

00:48:35.100 about two and a half

00:48:36.020 years.

00:48:37.120 And you yourself, I

00:48:38.880 normally wouldn't go over

00:48:40.100 this, but becomes

00:48:40.860 relevant later.

00:48:41.400 But you yourself, what's

00:48:42.300 your ethnic background

00:48:43.300 and just tell us about

00:48:44.480 your family and your

00:48:45.360 your own personal

00:48:46.360 history?

00:48:47.560 So I'm the fifth child

00:48:49.380 of a Filipino

00:48:51.440 immigrant.

00:48:52.800 My father is an

00:48:54.000 orthopedic surgeon who

00:48:55.180 came here in his mid

00:48:56.880 20s from a small town

00:48:58.560 in the Philippines

00:48:59.540 called Monopola.

00:49:01.140 And he married

00:49:02.640 my mother, who was a 1.00

00:49:04.280 nurse at the time.

00:49:05.380 She's from Taylor's

00:49:06.640 Falls, Minnesota, which

00:49:07.440 is a small town in

00:49:08.740 Minnesota.

00:49:09.080 She was a farmer's 0.70

00:49:09.940 daughter.

00:49:10.200 Um, and so, um, you

00:49:13.560 know, my parents are

00:49:14.620 kind of a biracial

00:49:15.540 couple.

00:49:16.480 Um, so I grew up, um,

00:49:18.420 with them.

00:49:19.640 Tell us about your, your

00:49:20.300 own nuclear family.

00:49:21.720 Okay.

00:49:22.440 Um, yeah.

00:49:23.080 And I, uh, my first

00:49:24.740 husband happened to be

00:49:26.280 African-American.

00:49:27.060 I have, uh, three

00:49:28.920 biracial children, um, 0.98

00:49:31.680 who are, um, 23, 22,

00:49:34.260 and 18 at this time.

00:49:36.480 Okay.

00:49:37.240 So, I mean, anybody

00:49:38.680 can deduce from that

00:49:39.560 that you're not exactly

00:49:40.320 a seething racist.

00:49:41.680 Don't, don't jump out

00:49:42.740 as an Archie Bunker, um,

00:49:44.280 which is what the

00:49:44.960 hospital's kind of trying

00:49:46.180 to say about you now.

00:49:47.140 It's insulting.

00:49:47.780 So I just want to lay

00:49:48.420 the foundation.

00:49:49.460 Um, but not only that,

00:49:50.820 not only your history,

00:49:51.780 but while you were

00:49:52.880 chair of the department,

00:49:53.660 you took a look at

00:49:55.360 things like what's going

00:49:56.680 on, um, in terms of

00:49:58.440 the birthing practices

00:49:59.440 and how can we better

00:50:00.460 serve our diverse

00:50:01.640 patients?

00:50:02.420 What did you do to,

00:50:04.000 to advance that cause?

00:50:05.200 Yeah, so the community

00:50:07.260 health assessment

00:50:07.940 in, like, 2018

00:50:08.980 showed that there were,

00:50:10.620 you know, marked

00:50:11.200 disparities in birth

00:50:12.140 outcomes, uh, with

00:50:13.160 African-American

00:50:13.860 and Native American

00:50:14.800 women, uh, indigenous,

00:50:16.960 indigenous women. 0.73

00:50:17.840 And so we were kind

00:50:19.240 of charged with taking

00:50:20.020 a closer look at that.

00:50:21.700 Uh, so we got a group

00:50:24.820 of community leaders

00:50:25.820 as well as, um, uh,

00:50:28.780 physicians and healthcare

00:50:30.460 folks together,

00:50:31.600 and we started talking

00:50:32.700 about how to best

00:50:33.500 address it.

00:50:34.680 Um, we started working

00:50:36.140 on, uh, a program

00:50:38.020 kind of culture,

00:50:38.780 what we were calling

00:50:39.760 culturally congruent,

00:50:40.980 um, premier, uh,

00:50:43.260 prenatal care group,

00:50:44.600 prenatal care, uh, pilots,

00:50:46.780 uh, which, um, my thought

00:50:50.700 was, was to help us learn

00:50:52.440 more about these two, uh,

00:50:54.560 specific communities, um,

00:50:56.640 so that we could understand

00:50:57.760 how to serve their needs

00:50:58.840 better.

00:50:59.540 Um, and eventually,

00:51:01.420 uh, do a similar kind

00:51:03.580 of deep dive with other

00:51:04.900 groups that we serve

00:51:06.420 because Hennepin Healthcare

00:51:07.660 serves a quite diverse

00:51:09.380 community.

00:51:10.300 Um, and then ultimately

00:51:12.240 my hope and goal was to

00:51:14.180 create a, um, kind of a

00:51:17.020 care model that could

00:51:17.820 serve everyone that was

00:51:18.940 open enough, uh, to, uh,

00:51:22.060 serve all the different,

00:51:23.480 um, cultural backgrounds

00:51:25.240 that we're working with.

00:51:27.400 And before I get to your

00:51:28.120 postings after George Floyd

00:51:29.360 and all that, and all that,

00:51:30.120 I know that you've said,

00:51:31.020 um, now that hospital,

00:51:33.260 your hospital has taken

00:51:34.120 that program and turned it

00:51:35.200 into racially segregated

00:51:36.900 care.

00:51:37.780 What does that mean?

00:51:38.720 We were talking about it

00:51:39.600 just amongst my staff

00:51:40.700 last week.

00:51:41.300 Like, what, what does that

00:51:43.020 mean?

00:51:44.400 So, you know, when we

00:51:46.660 started these culturally

00:51:47.700 congruent care models, my

00:51:49.780 thought was that we were

00:51:51.180 going to use that as a

00:51:52.820 learning to then ex kind

00:51:54.680 of, um, universalize our

00:51:57.500 care in a way that was

00:51:58.880 open, uh, to everyone

00:52:00.700 and comfortable for

00:52:01.620 everyone.

00:52:02.340 As I started, as I

00:52:03.980 continued on that work,

00:52:05.680 um, comments were being

00:52:07.380 made like, you know, oh,

00:52:08.960 we won't be ready to kind

00:52:11.400 of, uh, have an open care

00:52:13.240 model like that for decades.

00:52:15.140 I was on one group where,

00:52:17.260 uh, we couldn't, we wanted

00:52:19.260 to have a community health

00:52:20.260 care worker who, um, and it

00:52:23.940 was for an African-American

00:52:25.200 pilot, um, and they

00:52:27.780 didn't have one that was

00:52:29.380 African-American.

00:52:30.480 And so they were having a

00:52:32.540 discussion on how to get

00:52:33.620 around their anti-discrimination

00:52:35.700 like bylaws.

00:52:37.940 And I said, what are we

00:52:39.960 talking about here?

00:52:41.300 I mean, are we doing

00:52:42.680 segregated care?

00:52:44.500 Isn't the ultimate goal to

00:52:46.140 train all of us to know how

00:52:48.040 to take care of folks from

00:52:49.500 diverse backgrounds.

00:52:51.220 And there was just kind of a

00:52:52.580 silence.

00:52:53.140 Oh, in other words, you can 0.98

00:52:54.100 only have a black doctor 0.99

00:52:55.280 work on black patients. 0.75

00:52:56.820 They were like, we need 0.92

00:52:57.700 somebody, a black doctor 0.95

00:52:58.720 because to serve the black 0.93

00:53:00.080 patient population. 0.63

00:53:01.580 Right.

00:53:02.040 And so the initial pilots

00:53:03.500 were kind of say, were the

00:53:05.560 initial pilots that I worked

00:53:06.580 on were kind of like, okay,

00:53:08.580 clearly there seemed from what

00:53:10.140 we were hearing from the

00:53:10.880 community, there was this,

00:53:11.980 this barrier.

00:53:13.180 Right.

00:53:13.580 And so we said, well, let's

00:53:14.720 do a pilot to understand that

00:53:16.700 barrier.

00:53:17.080 And yes, let's try and match

00:53:18.720 the clinicians race.

00:53:23.040 But then it became more than

00:53:25.360 just a pilot or seemingly to

00:53:27.360 me, it became more than just

00:53:28.500 a pilot.

00:53:28.900 And it became a thing that

00:53:30.080 like, no, this is going to be

00:53:31.120 our care model.

00:53:32.660 And so, you know, for me and

00:53:34.700 I, maybe it's a fine

00:53:35.460 distinction, but my thought

00:53:37.100 was it would be useful maybe

00:53:38.720 to understand what was going

00:53:42.020 on and what the barriers were.

00:53:43.300 But I never anticipated that

00:53:45.980 it would be thought to become

00:53:47.180 kind of a care model to be

00:53:49.120 carried on.

00:53:50.520 Right.

00:53:50.820 If that makes sense.

00:53:51.920 No, I was, I was very

00:53:53.260 confused because I was like,

00:53:54.160 if they have segregated care

00:53:55.360 in the, in the, you know,

00:53:57.040 nursery, right.

00:53:58.300 Like it's going to get very

00:54:00.100 awkward.

00:54:00.600 I mean, and what is a

00:54:01.420 biracial woman like yourself 1.00

00:54:02.680 do with your baby, right?

00:54:03.740 Like which, which part of the

00:54:04.860 ward does he go to?

00:54:05.820 I mean, it's just, if you're

00:54:07.380 going to take it that far, it

00:54:08.200 could get very uncomfortable

00:54:09.020 very fast.

00:54:09.940 So that's, but that's not

00:54:12.000 sort of what got you in

00:54:13.600 trouble with the, with the

00:54:14.740 hospital.

00:54:15.240 This is just a, by way of

00:54:16.220 background, by saying you're

00:54:17.120 not insensitive to cultural

00:54:18.960 differences and to the

00:54:20.760 different needs of different

00:54:21.580 patients based on skin color

00:54:23.540 and cultural backgrounds and

00:54:25.360 so on.

00:54:25.760 You're tuned into that.

00:54:27.660 However, however, after George

00:54:30.260 Floyd was killed in

00:54:31.820 Minneapolis, you know, your

00:54:33.280 town and tensions were

00:54:35.640 running high, you were among

00:54:38.380 the first to say, hold on.

00:54:42.000 With the narrative that's

00:54:43.460 being pushed, just hold on.

00:54:44.980 Let's, I'm a doctor and I'm

00:54:46.300 fact-based and let's see

00:54:48.580 whether these narratives about

00:54:50.140 police are true or whether

00:54:52.300 this is sort of propaganda

00:54:53.940 being pushed on us.

00:54:55.380 And you started to make some, I

00:54:57.540 guess we could call them

00:54:58.380 heterodox, certainly for that 0.94

00:54:59.680 time, postings on your social

00:55:01.440 media about, you know, let's be

00:55:03.680 careful here because the data

00:55:05.720 about police that you're being

00:55:08.520 fed America and colleagues may

00:55:11.600 not be based in fact.

00:55:13.020 Is that a fair summary?

00:55:14.200 That is a fair summary.

00:55:16.100 So yeah, after George Floyd

00:55:18.440 was murdered, I remember

00:55:20.840 looking at that initially and

00:55:22.900 it didn't even strike me that

00:55:25.120 it was a black man.

00:55:26.160 I just saw this policeman 0.98

00:55:27.740 killing someone.

00:55:30.020 And I was really appalled.

00:55:32.120 And when it became, everyone

00:55:34.200 seemed to immediately jump to

00:55:35.700 race.

00:55:36.140 And I thought to myself, am I

00:55:37.620 so out of touch?

00:55:39.420 And so I actually started

00:55:40.700 pulling up all the FBI

00:55:41.860 statistics and I went back and

00:55:43.980 I was looking and I wasn't

00:55:46.800 insensate.

00:55:47.600 Of course, I'd seen quite a few 0.73

00:55:50.200 news stories about black

00:55:51.740 police brutality to people of

00:55:56.100 color.

00:55:56.400 But I just got when I got the

00:55:58.280 statistics and I saw that they

00:56:00.440 really weren't bearing out this

00:56:02.340 narrative that people of color 1.00

00:56:04.580 were being targeted and hunted.

00:56:07.000 I felt like one, personally, I felt

00:56:11.120 kind of angry as a mother of a 0.94

00:56:12.620 black of two black sons and a black 0.73

00:56:15.100 daughter that I had been 0.92

00:56:17.400 unnecessarily so afraid once I

00:56:21.280 actually saw the statistics.

00:56:22.600 And then two, I went and looked

00:56:26.480 kind of into what had happened in

00:56:28.840 other places where police were

00:56:30.480 weakened and knew that it was not

00:56:36.520 good what happened and that people

00:56:38.300 of color, if the police were going

00:56:39.860 to be defunded and weakened, that

00:56:41.980 people of color were going to be

00:56:43.980 disproportionately affected by that

00:56:46.500 move.

00:56:47.860 So I did.

00:56:48.860 I began posting.

00:56:49.840 I even went to my CEO and the

00:56:53.300 board of directors at Hennepin

00:56:54.780 Health Care and asked them to

00:56:57.600 consider opposing defunding of the

00:57:01.560 police because we knew what would

00:57:04.200 happen to the population that we

00:57:06.520 serve, which is violence would rise

00:57:09.920 in their communities.

00:57:11.580 Yeah.

00:57:11.920 Are you I mean, you were

00:57:12.860 prescient.

00:57:13.580 That's exactly what did happen, not

00:57:15.940 just in Minneapolis, but in city

00:57:17.600 after city after city, which are now

00:57:19.500 all refunding their police

00:57:21.520 departments, having realized the

00:57:23.440 devastating consequences of going

00:57:26.440 the way that you were urging them

00:57:28.840 not to go.

00:57:30.400 So and by the way, I do have to say

00:57:31.780 that was very brave of you because I

00:57:33.300 read that you were doing this in

00:57:34.800 July of 2020 when, you know, most

00:57:38.400 people were afraid to touch this.

00:57:39.960 Maybe you were more emboldened

00:57:40.880 because you are biracial and you're 0.99

00:57:42.080 the mother of black children. 0.68

00:57:43.080 But I had to tip my hat to you 0.95

00:57:45.260 because that that took guts and

00:57:47.400 they did not exactly throw their

00:57:49.000 arms around you and say, these are

00:57:50.420 great ideas, Tara.

00:57:52.140 Like, let's go with that.

00:57:53.680 You could feel the brushback right

00:57:55.820 from the start.

00:57:57.900 Yeah.

00:57:58.500 So, you know, what I got from the

00:58:02.160 executive leadership in the board was

00:58:03.880 just, you know, you're so brave for

00:58:06.420 speaking out.

00:58:07.340 Right.

00:58:07.740 Um, what I got from my colleagues in

00:58:11.860 my department or as, um, you know,

00:58:15.060 especially, uh, when I kind of spoke

00:58:17.460 out against Black Lives Matter for

00:58:20.100 this reason, for their position of

00:58:22.100 wanting to defund the police, um, that,

00:58:26.180 you know, I was, that wasn't as

00:58:29.680 important as supporting black people.

00:58:31.680 And I was trying to explain that I, I

00:58:33.940 viewed it as supporting black people.

00:58:36.160 Um, of course I, I don't disagree with

00:58:40.080 Black Lives Matter, but some of the

00:58:42.920 other things that they were

00:58:43.800 advocating, uh, for, I could not

00:58:46.380 support.

00:58:48.340 So you wouldn't, you wouldn't stop.

00:58:50.660 They told you to at least put a

00:58:52.260 disclaimer on your social media that

00:58:53.780 you don't speak for the organization.

00:58:55.340 Fine.

00:58:56.080 Right.

00:58:56.380 Okay.

00:58:56.860 Yeah.

00:58:57.440 Um, but then it seems like they,

00:59:00.720 they started to step it up a notch.

00:59:03.300 And the next thing, you know, they're

00:59:05.460 pulling in some human resources firm to

00:59:09.820 do an investigation of you who I think

00:59:12.820 at that very moment, or at least for

00:59:14.460 years earlier, they had been promoting

00:59:16.380 on billboards throughout the city.

00:59:17.780 That's how much they loved you.

00:59:18.860 Now, suddenly human resources has got to

00:59:21.300 review.

00:59:21.940 What exactly?

00:59:22.940 How did they phrase it?

00:59:25.640 Yeah.

00:59:26.100 So, you know, you're right.

00:59:27.860 I was, um, on billboards.

00:59:29.740 I was on the, actually the board of the

00:59:31.580 directors for the hospital for five and a

00:59:33.680 half years.

00:59:34.600 I was a chair of the board quality

00:59:37.180 committee.

00:59:37.880 I was chair of the medical staff quality

00:59:40.700 committee.

00:59:41.560 Um, so I had to help quite a few, um,

00:59:44.240 administrative and leadership roles within

00:59:46.040 the organization.

00:59:47.680 Um, my colleagues, uh, had expressed

00:59:51.980 concerns over, um, my political, uh,

00:59:56.180 beliefs, um, to the point that they

00:59:59.640 kind of said that they didn't think I

01:00:01.740 was, uh, able to run the department

01:00:04.500 anymore because of them.

01:00:06.800 Um, and so they said that they were

01:00:10.120 going to bring in an HR firm to kind of,

01:00:13.260 um, understand this better, um, which

01:00:16.300 is what they did.

01:00:17.580 It's really amazing.

01:00:18.840 I mean, I'm just going back and looking

01:00:20.860 at, you know, some of the, my, my team

01:00:23.020 summary of some of the postings.

01:00:24.360 Um, that you believe CRT is a race

01:00:28.340 essentialist ideology that presupposes

01:00:30.900 zero sum racial conflict seeks to remedy

01:00:32.960 that by discriminating against individuals

01:00:34.800 so as to make group outcomes more equal

01:00:37.100 that, um, you, you had a personal opinion

01:00:42.140 that CRT is not a continuation of the

01:00:45.100 civil rights movement, but rather a

01:00:47.240 repudiation of it, right?

01:00:49.260 Okay.

01:00:49.680 This is all true.

01:00:50.980 I mean, that's, that's, I think that's

01:00:52.800 really clear.

01:00:53.420 I think even the BLM supporters would 1.00

01:00:54.980 say, yeah, you know, Martin Luther King

01:00:56.900 had a place in time, but this is not it.

01:00:58.860 And, you know, we've got to move forward

01:01:00.540 and we reject that, you know, I don't

01:01:02.080 see color and they've, they've been

01:01:03.240 pretty explicit about, like, it's not

01:01:04.700 even all opinion here.

01:01:06.080 This is factual.

01:01:08.080 Um, but in your profession, like so many

01:01:11.260 others, you're not allowed to have an

01:01:14.420 opinion that doesn't go along with the

01:01:15.840 masses.

01:01:16.180 Cause I'm, I'm going to guess that there

01:01:17.540 were doctors speaking out the other way

01:01:19.180 who had no problems whatsoever.

01:01:22.660 Yes.

01:01:23.780 So, you know, I mean, people, which, you

01:01:27.200 know, people were wearing BLM buttons and

01:01:30.420 things like that.

01:01:31.300 Um, and you know, there was really nothing

01:01:34.620 said, uh, about that.

01:01:37.060 Um, the organization, um, was clearly, uh,

01:01:42.640 although officially they said they weren't

01:01:44.120 going to support, um, any specific

01:01:46.460 organization, they clearly were, uh, more

01:01:49.260 tolerant, um, of certain political points

01:01:52.200 of view.

01:01:53.260 I know that, that they wanted to write a

01:01:54.940 letter generally about like to the staff

01:01:59.220 and, you know, the, all the letters that

01:02:01.320 went out at that time, like, Oh, we care

01:02:03.300 and we're here.

01:02:04.300 And there was one line item in particular

01:02:06.900 that you went to battle with them over.

01:02:09.000 What was that about?

01:02:10.180 So, yeah, after the death of George

01:02:11.900 Floyd, my department decided they wanted

01:02:13.840 to send a letter to our patients, which I

01:02:15.880 thought was a great idea.

01:02:17.740 Um, and one of the lines that they

01:02:20.800 included was, uh, to the extent of, you

01:02:24.800 know, we support you when you're unrest.

01:02:27.480 Um, and at that point, this is after, you

01:02:30.220 know, the riots in Minneapolis and I

01:02:34.280 I said, you know, I have a hard time, uh,

01:02:38.140 signing a letter that says the term

01:02:40.800 unrest.

01:02:41.340 Can we remove that term?

01:02:43.240 Uh, I think some people may read that

01:02:45.480 as riots and I can't, I don't want to be

01:02:49.020 seen as supporting the riots because I

01:02:50.780 don't, I think it's really detrimental to

01:02:52.780 our community.

01:02:54.020 And they wanted you to sign it.

01:02:55.840 Yes.

01:02:56.400 So they wanted to come from our entire 1.00

01:02:57.920 department.

01:02:58.460 Um, and I said, you know, I can't have

01:03:02.320 it come from the, if you want to keep

01:03:03.780 that term in there, you are welcome to

01:03:06.080 sign that individually, but it cannot come

01:03:09.460 from our entire department because at

01:03:11.080 least one person in our department has a

01:03:13.140 problem with the letter.

01:03:15.100 These are doctors who are on, who are in

01:03:17.540 your group who wanted, you know, who

01:03:19.380 drafted this and wanted you to sign it.

01:03:20.680 Okay.

01:03:20.840 I got it.

01:03:21.860 Yeah.

01:03:22.320 And so I said, you can sign it and send

01:03:24.740 it.

01:03:25.060 You just can't sign it from our department

01:03:26.900 because I don't feel comfortable signing

01:03:29.040 that letter.

01:03:29.940 If you revise it and take that term out, I'm

01:03:32.340 happy to have it come from our department.

01:03:35.000 Um, you know, and my goal there was to try

01:03:37.940 and create a space where we could all feel

01:03:39.840 comfortable.

01:03:40.660 And I also told them that if anyone else

01:03:43.100 had a problem with any of the verbiage in

01:03:44.820 the letter to let me know, because it was

01:03:47.240 really important to me that this not divider

01:03:51.200 department, that this be something that we

01:03:53.500 could all agree with, um, and, and work

01:03:57.100 together on, um, but that was not an

01:04:00.140 acceptable, um, uh, stance with many of

01:04:04.600 my partners.

01:04:05.800 Do you know now with, uh, you know, the

01:04:08.000 benefit of hindsight, whether there are

01:04:10.680 other doctors in your department who feel

01:04:12.720 as you do, or are they all against you?

01:04:15.200 You know, I think that there are many, um,

01:04:18.720 of my partners who maybe would have taken

01:04:22.800 the attitude of, you know, her beliefs are

01:04:24.800 her beliefs.

01:04:25.300 That's fine.

01:04:25.960 She's working.

01:04:27.060 She works well, right. 0.97

01:04:28.500 There were some very vocal people in the

01:04:31.180 department who had a problem with my

01:04:32.720 political stances.

01:04:35.020 Um, and so, you know, I think in the end

01:04:38.720 of the day there, they want out, um, you

01:04:42.060 know, my executive leadership, um, forbade

01:04:45.620 me from talking to any of my partners, which

01:04:48.540 was my initial inclination was, you know,

01:04:52.140 clearly we're miscommunicating.

01:04:54.700 And so can I sit down and talk with you?

01:04:57.360 Um, and my executive leadership said that

01:05:00.520 that would be seen as retaliation, just

01:05:03.120 talking with my partners.

01:05:04.260 Oh, wow.

01:05:05.620 So that's how crazy the law is, by the

01:05:07.420 way, they're not, they're not wrong about

01:05:08.580 that, but it's insane that we've gotten to

01:05:10.580 that point, that point, the lawyers, they

01:05:12.580 ruin everything.

01:05:13.140 Um, unlike doctors, you know, it's true.

01:05:18.480 You know, it's true, Dan.

01:05:20.140 Um, so, okay.

01:05:22.800 You, the human, the human resources group

01:05:25.200 comes in and now they're doing an

01:05:26.620 investigation.

01:05:27.120 And I mean, you've got to be thinking

01:05:28.640 to yourself, this is insanity.

01:05:30.120 I posted things online trying to say what

01:05:32.980 I think about what's really going on here.

01:05:35.620 And they're effectively threatening my

01:05:38.320 livelihood, my, my job even potentially,

01:05:41.000 but certainly your position as chair of

01:05:43.620 the department, which you had earned

01:05:45.420 through excellence.

01:05:47.560 Yes.

01:05:48.960 And so do you, do you go to them and say,

01:05:51.160 this is a sham?

01:05:52.040 What do you do?

01:05:52.440 Like I'm on the billboards.

01:05:53.560 I I've had nothing but wonderful feedback

01:05:55.340 my entire career.

01:05:56.640 This is political persecution.

01:05:58.140 Yeah, well, you know, I certainly said

01:06:01.920 how, you know, how are you, why are you

01:06:05.800 letting this stand?

01:06:07.620 Um, why, you know, for me, it was it for

01:06:12.160 them to, you know, go to the place of

01:06:14.980 your, uh, racist. 0.99

01:06:16.180 Um, you are, you know, uh, unfit because 0.95

01:06:21.680 of that, given my personal history and

01:06:24.900 also my life's work.

01:06:26.380 Um, you know, I, my entire career, I've

01:06:30.020 been working with, uh, very many different

01:06:33.280 diverse populations.

01:06:35.080 Um, and so to me, and I've also had like

01:06:39.200 a hundred percent approval rating from my

01:06:40.900 patients from a very diverse population of

01:06:44.040 patients.

01:06:45.100 So to me, yeah, I said, you know, this is,

01:06:48.880 let me talk, let's have a mediated

01:06:51.300 discussion.

01:06:52.640 Um, you know, but if you can't even talk,

01:06:56.100 if you can't defend yourself, um, if you

01:06:59.020 can't even give your point of view, uh,

01:07:02.840 there's not a lot, there's not a lot of

01:07:04.540 recourse.

01:07:05.280 Right.

01:07:05.820 At that point, especially when any people

01:07:08.540 who are on the other side of the issue are

01:07:10.500 freely able to express their views.

01:07:14.040 That's, that's madness.

01:07:16.000 It's totally unfair and it's wrong.

01:07:18.780 And we're seeing it, of course, everywhere.

01:07:20.800 All right.

01:07:21.000 I'm going to squeeze in a quick break.

01:07:22.360 And after this, we'll talk about what that

01:07:24.520 hospital did to Dr. Tara Gustilo.

01:07:27.660 It was very wrong.

01:07:29.660 And she's fighting back with her lawyer,

01:07:31.860 Dan.

01:07:32.140 He's one of the good ones.

01:07:37.780 So Tara, the HR people come in and they do

01:07:40.160 their little investigation.

01:07:41.260 And what did they ultimately decide to do

01:07:43.980 with you?

01:07:44.640 So what they said was that they felt like, uh,

01:07:49.220 there was too much distrust between my, uh,

01:07:52.780 between my colleagues and me for me to continue

01:07:56.760 on as chair, that, uh, mediated conversation, uh,

01:08:01.320 was not going to be possible.

01:08:02.920 Um, and that, you know, basically the

01:08:07.800 recommendation was that I should step down.

01:08:10.420 And I'll jump in, Megan, just to know, there was

01:08:12.920 an HR meeting specifically where they admitted

01:08:14.980 that her political views were the trigger for

01:08:18.000 her demotion.

01:08:19.280 It's really, it's unbelievable.

01:08:20.540 It's just great for you.

01:08:21.660 It's wonderful.

01:08:22.440 It's an, it's an incredible admission.

01:08:24.620 Right.

01:08:25.020 It's great.

01:08:25.680 You don't always get that.

01:08:26.660 Usually they're saying it's like, well, she 1.00

01:08:27.760 sucked, you know, it sucked. 0.99

01:08:29.320 It had nothing to do with that. 0.99

01:08:30.200 Now they're like, no, we hated what she said.

01:08:32.420 She should have been pro BLM. 0.97

01:08:34.200 It's basically what they've said.

01:08:35.500 I'll get to their, their defenses and what

01:08:37.300 they're now trying to claim now that you've

01:08:39.080 gotten a lawyer.

01:08:40.260 Um, the story changes a bit, but so they, they

01:08:43.780 booted you as chair.

01:08:45.640 And just for the record, can you tell us the

01:08:47.780 race of the person who replaced you as chair

01:08:50.220 person of the department?

01:08:51.800 Uh, she's a white woman. 1.00

01:08:54.480 Okay.

01:08:55.020 So in the name of equity, they booted the 0.98

01:08:57.180 biracial mother of black children for a white 0.99

01:09:00.060 woman. 0.91

01:09:00.480 Okay.

01:09:00.700 That's how it works, but it's all about your

01:09:02.620 political positions.

01:09:03.900 Um, and so then it makes sense.

01:09:05.880 Uh, they, they questioned your ability to

01:09:09.740 lead based on the statements in your, on

01:09:13.100 your Facebook page and so on.

01:09:14.220 And specifically your views on race, according

01:09:17.440 to, um, your, your complaint.

01:09:20.220 I think Daniel suggested that now here's what

01:09:22.580 they say.

01:09:23.040 And Dan, you can jump into if you want.

01:09:24.300 Um, they say Tara alienated her entire 0.81

01:09:28.140 department and was not providing the necessary

01:09:30.640 leadership required of a department chair.

01:09:33.180 Um, this is quoting now she incorrectly and

01:09:35.760 myopically viewed the legitimate criticisms of

01:09:37.880 her performance as a department chair as based

01:09:40.400 solely on opposition to her political positions.

01:09:42.280 This same lack of self-awareness is what led to

01:09:45.280 her downfall as chair.

01:09:47.380 They're basically saying she was so polarizing

01:09:49.980 during such a difficult time within the hospital

01:09:52.400 that she lost the support of her, you know, the

01:09:55.160 people under, under her or around her and could no

01:09:58.120 longer lead.

01:09:58.780 Is that a fair complaint?

01:10:01.600 Maybe I should jump in here.

01:10:02.660 It's, it's not fair if the motivation is essentially

01:10:07.120 a flavor of racism.

01:10:08.760 Um, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're, if

01:10:10.900 you take us back into another time where you can

01:10:12.620 imagine a racist workplace, uh, where the workers 0.96

01:10:15.420 are said, you know, we can't have a black supervisor. 0.72

01:10:17.960 We won't get along that doesn't immunize that 0.89

01:10:20.980 just highlights the illegality.

01:10:22.900 And so when her coworkers are saying she essentially

01:10:26.120 doesn't have the proper views for a person of color 1.00

01:10:29.320 and we can't work with her, uh, that's, that's 1.00

01:10:32.060 an admission essentially of the title seven violation

01:10:34.500 that they're, they want to discriminate on the

01:10:36.480 basis of race.

01:10:38.020 So you're not, you're not basic.

01:10:39.220 Cause there's a, yeah, an allegation of race

01:10:41.000 discrimination against Tara is that that's not 1.00

01:10:43.520 exactly based on her race.

01:10:45.260 It's based on her standing up to racism within the

01:10:48.720 department and them saying you're fired for that.

01:10:51.080 Yeah, there's a couple of different things.

01:10:52.300 And I suppose one important thing to note is, uh,

01:10:54.820 Hennepin healthcare system is a County hospital.

01:10:57.140 This is a, a public institution.

01:10:59.360 Dr.

01:10:59.940 Gustillo is a public employee.

01:11:01.380 Um, and so we have claims that are kind of two sides

01:11:04.880 of the same coin.

01:11:05.560 Uh, we have a first amendment retaliation claim for

01:11:08.500 the things that she said outside of the scope of her

01:11:11.600 employment, her personal Facebook page and things like

01:11:14.200 that, where it's absolutely clear that adverse employment

01:11:17.060 action can't be taken against a public employee for

01:11:19.420 things they say off the job.

01:11:21.180 And then she was also advocating within the workplace

01:11:24.780 essentially for compliance with title seven.

01:11:27.480 Um, you know, things like, uh, advocating against racialized 0.92

01:11:32.080 care or, or segregated care, um, advocating for equality, uh,

01:11:38.600 rather than equity.

01:11:39.820 You know, the distinction being you have this 1960s civil rights

01:11:43.240 2.0 view of, um, everyone needs to be equal under the law

01:11:46.920 and we don't discriminate on the, we don't allow discrimination

01:11:49.640 on the basis of race.

01:11:50.720 And we have this new idea, um, old word, new meaning of equity

01:11:54.960 where we must discriminate against individuals in order to

01:11:58.100 make groups equal.

01:11:59.620 Um, in our view, equity is, that view of equity and acting on

01:12:03.880 it as a violation of the civil rights act of 1964.

01:12:07.140 Um, and so when Dr.

01:12:08.560 Gustillo was, was out there advocating essentially for equality,

01:12:11.540 she was advocating for compliance with title seven and they

01:12:14.040 retaliated against her for that.

01:12:15.340 Mm-hmm.

01:12:16.580 So they, they claim that's not the case now.

01:12:20.700 Now they're saying, uh, this was not the first time that there'd

01:12:25.720 been issues Tara with, uh, you as chair. 0.80

01:12:28.940 And here's what they say, just as a couple of examples.

01:12:30.800 They say in early 2017, two new female African-American OBGYN 0.93

01:12:35.040 doctors spoke to HHS human resources regarding how they were being

01:12:39.220 treated in the department.

01:12:40.160 One characterized it as a quote, pattern of microaggressions toward

01:12:43.200 black physicians and quote, subtle racism.

01:12:46.700 Um, others specifically related to you. 0.77

01:12:49.540 In other words, they're not necessarily pinning those bad

01:12:51.560 behaviors on you.

01:12:52.620 It's just, but it's your department.

01:12:53.960 Then they say others related specifically to Tara saying to some

01:12:58.700 extent, all the physicians felt that when you Tara bring concerns

01:13:02.900 to their attention, you are, they, that they are being asked to

01:13:07.260 take the blame.

01:13:08.160 They don't like you asking the physicians in your department to

01:13:11.840 take the blame, um, and that the physicians feel like they are

01:13:15.280 not supported.

01:13:16.600 Those are the two main examples that they've given for quote, the

01:13:19.320 real reasons why you could no longer remain chair.

01:13:22.880 What are your thoughts on it?

01:13:24.680 So one, the 2017, uh, no one, no one from HR came and talked to

01:13:31.120 me.

01:13:31.340 There was an issue in 2017 where there was actually a, um, black

01:13:38.360 patient who didn't want to get care from a black physician.

01:13:42.360 Um, and at that time we didn't really have a policy on that.

01:13:47.660 Um, and it was a concern and it was a concern that we talked about

01:13:52.780 it within my department and I brought it to the executive leadership and

01:13:56.560 said, we really need to have a clear, uh, kind of guideline on how to

01:14:02.400 handle situations like this.

01:14:03.980 Um, and I will say that it was never acted upon, um, at a higher

01:14:08.740 level, um, even though I brought it up numerous times.

01:14:12.520 So I don't know if that was what they were referring to, but that

01:14:15.200 would have been about the right timeframe regarding, um, my saying

01:14:20.780 that when physicians, uh, had conflicts with people that we

01:14:24.520 should, um, quote, take the blame.

01:14:28.000 I don't think I've ever said that we should take the blame.

01:14:30.440 What I said was there's a power dynamic within medical care and

01:14:35.580 physicians are at the top of that power dynamic in general.

01:14:39.960 So when there's an issue, it's often upon, uh, incumbent upon the

01:14:45.080 physician to be the one to, to solve it.

01:14:48.580 So if I've had an issue with a nurse, oftentimes the nurse is not going

01:14:52.200 to feel comfortable coming to me and talking, talking it out with me.

01:14:55.500 And so I encourage my colleagues, um, to go when they had issues with

01:15:01.560 other folks, go and talk with them and be, be the one to initiate,

01:15:06.460 understand there's a power dynamic within medicine.

01:15:08.800 And so as the physician, it may often be incumbent upon you to do

01:15:12.860 that.

01:15:13.340 What do you make of that advice?

01:15:15.560 Did anybody come to you and complain about microaggressions?

01:15:18.180 You know, that term microaggression, not so much with me.

01:15:23.680 Um, I think the, you know, certainly there were times where, uh, people,

01:15:28.860 and I will say not just my, um, the clinicians of color, um, but there

01:15:33.940 were just in general with physicians where they felt like they were being,

01:15:37.940 um, asked to unduly, uh, take on extra burdens and things like that.

01:15:43.540 And we would talk about that if it involved another individual, I would

01:15:48.180 always encourage them to talk with that individual first and try and work it

01:15:53.380 out.

01:15:53.840 And if they couldn't then to let me know, and either I or someone from HR could

01:15:58.760 have a mediated conversation with them.

01:16:00.900 I mean, it's really crazy to think about the nation's doctors at this level of

01:16:03.860 practice, getting upset about microaggressions, you know, like little nits 0.99

01:16:06.800 that people, people behave like jerks in every workplace. 0.99

01:16:09.840 There's going to be nasty comments. 0.99

01:16:12.140 They're not totally evolved any in any profession, right?

01:16:15.060 People. 0.99

01:16:15.920 And so you're always going to deal with the one jerk who says this or says 0.99

01:16:18.700 that it's like, most of us just like saying that's life. 0.99

01:16:21.520 I'm moving on.

01:16:22.480 You know, like I don't need to go complain, make a thing out of it.

01:16:25.260 And, and look, it, to me, it's, it continues to seem like this actually wasn't

01:16:30.100 even a big deal at your organization.

01:16:31.420 They're just digging things up.

01:16:33.500 They can find in the past to try to smear you billboard lady, because it's 1.00

01:16:39.580 really hard.

01:16:40.160 They've got to try to tear down that image, probably actually and figuratively.

01:16:44.600 Right, Dan?

01:16:44.900 That's absolutely right, Megan.

01:16:46.040 And I think Dr. Castillo can speak at the exact date, but it was recently the

01:16:50.280 current chair asked her for help in leading a discussion with all of her

01:16:54.120 coworkers on how to deal with the stress of clinic and dealing with the public

01:16:58.620 and everything, because she does such a good job of it. 0.98

01:17:00.400 And as you can probably tell, she was actually a great leader.

01:17:03.280 And it's now the lawyers at Hennepin who are trying to gin up a pretextual

01:17:07.240 reason to justify what they did.

01:17:09.460 So that's, that's the real rub, right?

01:17:10.900 It's like they, so they shame you for your political views.

01:17:13.780 Then they punish you by demoting you.

01:17:16.340 Then when you fight back to say what you did was wrong, then they try to ruin

01:17:19.840 your reputation entirely.

01:17:22.200 Right.

01:17:22.360 And this is why so many people are afraid to speak out.

01:17:26.040 This is why most people don't do what you did.

01:17:28.960 And it's why I do think it was brave.

01:17:32.020 So they, how much did they cost you when they demoted you?

01:17:34.800 Like what, what was the difference in salary?

01:17:37.700 Um, well, it was probably about a third of my salary was taken away from me, um, with

01:17:45.180 that demotion, you know, I, I will say for me, um, it's not so much, I find the thing most

01:17:54.800 concerning to me is that, you know, medicine is based on the individual.

01:18:00.760 We have public health, which is based on groups, right? 0.79

01:18:04.100 But you know, the, the, we swear an oath to, um, kind of for unconditional love for our

01:18:12.420 patients, right?

01:18:13.080 It doesn't matter who you are and what you did before you walk into my office.

01:18:17.300 I am going to try and understand who you are as an individual and apply the science that

01:18:23.860 I know to you as an individual to help you become healthier.

01:18:27.940 And I really think that that is what's getting lost in all of this, that our job is to deal

01:18:34.620 with individuals and help them to become healthier.

01:18:37.180 Um, and you can't do that if you have these preconceived ideas of who this person is because

01:18:43.600 of their race or socioeconomic background or any of it, you have to think and approach people

01:18:51.140 as individuals in order to do mat to, to be a healer and to be in medicine.

01:18:56.900 At least that's my opinion.

01:18:58.680 Um, so what do you, what do you make of their, they're using an email and, uh, you know, no

01:19:05.680 good deed goes unpunished.

01:19:07.080 If you, true to form, you two tried to take responsibility for what you could.

01:19:12.400 And I guess you wrote a letter, um, and to the end, an email to the entire department and

01:19:18.220 trying to sort of reunite what was at the time a fractious situation.

01:19:22.300 And you said, and this is them bringing this up now, I'm deeply saddened that this letter,

01:19:28.200 which should have brought us together, seems to have created acrimony and hard feelings.

01:19:31.680 I'm even sadder that I have become the nidus, a new word I learned.

01:19:36.160 It means a place in which bacteria have multiplied or may multiply doctors.

01:19:41.220 I'm even sadder that I have been the nidus of this conflict.

01:19:44.640 I have actively been working to unify this department for years.

01:19:47.840 You went on to say, I was too forceful in my assertions as they were my beliefs.

01:19:51.360 It was never my intent to force anyone to agree, but I admit I did hope to persuade in

01:19:55.840 the past.

01:19:56.280 I've been told I'm too passionate and can be a bit of a bull in a China shop sister word.

01:20:00.960 Um, I clearly, I clearly need to keep working on these aspects of my personality.

01:20:05.960 Okay.

01:20:06.400 So that's you trying to say to your, your colleagues, I get that.

01:20:10.380 I ruffled some feathers.

01:20:12.120 I wanted to be more unifying and I will work on this.

01:20:15.780 And now they say she only got worse and they talk about your social media posts.

01:20:20.840 So do they, do you wish you hadn't written that email and, and how do you see it now with

01:20:27.480 the benefit of hindsight?

01:20:29.200 No, you know, for me, um, I think I wanted them to understand why I was making decisions

01:20:38.540 I was making.

01:20:39.340 Um, and so I explained to myself, which to me is a good leader.

01:20:44.740 I'm making a decision or I'm making a choice that you don't agree with.

01:20:48.800 This is my reasoning.

01:20:50.700 Um, and yes, of course we were seeing things differently.

01:20:54.880 And so anytime you explain yourself, you hope that people can at least say, well, that I

01:21:01.040 disagree with it, but I understand where she's coming from and can at least respect it.

01:21:05.080 Um, I did not, uh, you know, I, the way I worded that is I don't, I think if you read

01:21:12.740 my original email, I don't know that everyone would read it as this like very forceful thing.

01:21:19.080 Was it about the letter and not saying unrest, not supporting the unrest?

01:21:22.500 It was about the letter and not supporting unrest.

01:21:26.240 Also, there was an incident, um, after George Floyd, um, death where, uh, white coats for

01:21:35.260 black lives put on a, uh, sit in at the Capitol.

01:21:39.360 Uh, my department had wanted to do that and had started working on creating, uh, uh, acknowledgement

01:21:45.960 of what had happened.

01:21:47.320 Um, and then white coats for black lives heard about it and kind of took it over.

01:21:51.380 And then at that, um, rally, uh, our department was publicly thanked, um, for helping, uh, uh,

01:22:02.720 create that rally.

01:22:04.060 And that was one, something which Hennepin healthcare had explicitly said that we were not supposed

01:22:10.060 to affiliate ourselves with anyone in that manner.

01:22:14.060 And two, I had, I expressed my concerns with some of the positions of white coats for black

01:22:22.560 lives, which is associated with BLM.

01:22:25.340 Um, and, and that I felt like going forward, we as a department needed to be very, uh, aware

01:22:33.200 of who we were affiliating ourselves with and making sure that everyone felt comfortable doing

01:22:39.020 so.

01:22:40.360 So here's the thing I I'm reading the story and then I get to the part where the hospital

01:22:45.800 says, um, the group voted 25 to one in the end in favor of removing you as chair, uh,

01:22:52.960 and that you were the one who voted that you should stay.

01:22:56.720 So I understand as a practical matter, when you're running a business, et cetera, you know,

01:23:02.180 could you, could you see their point that you could no longer lead?

01:23:05.040 Even if these people were being unfair, that clearly they didn't want you.

01:23:09.900 And so can you really remain as chair when the entire department has turned on you?

01:23:16.480 So for me, I think it's one of those things where, um, again, let's take it to, if my department

01:23:25.400 had said, this is, uh, she's Filipino. 0.68

01:23:28.340 No, we can't, we can't have a Filipino beach chair.

01:23:31.700 Um, would that have been an appropriate thing?

01:23:35.620 And if the executive leadership, rather than letting it unravel the way they did, had stepped

01:23:41.240 in earlier and said, Hey, this is her political belief.

01:23:46.120 It's unacceptable for you to, you know, discriminate against her for that manner.

01:23:51.360 She's doing this good work.

01:23:55.840 Maybe it would have been different.

01:23:57.320 I don't know.

01:23:58.600 Um, I do know that, you know, from my perspective, uh, I was put in a position where I could not

01:24:07.020 speak with my department.

01:24:08.620 I could do nothing to, to kind of, um,

01:24:11.760 Meanwhile, they were ginning up acrimony against you.

01:24:15.740 And one of your other sins that we didn't even touch on is apparently you were a president

01:24:19.600 Trump supporter.

01:24:20.700 And, uh, this is, they point this out in, in, in what they found on your social media.

01:24:26.000 So, um, that's not, that's also not allowed in left-leaning communities amongst our leaders.

01:24:31.480 You're not at least supposed to say it outside, Tara.

01:24:33.640 Maybe nobody told you that.

01:24:34.700 Say it out loud.

01:24:35.700 Yeah.

01:24:36.420 Before we run out of time, can I tell you where we're at in the case?

01:24:39.060 Yeah.

01:24:39.480 I love that, Dan.

01:24:40.040 Um, yeah, so we, we just, we had a pit stop at the EEOC and now, uh, we've just filed

01:24:45.820 in, uh, federal court, uh, here in Minneapolis.

01:24:48.560 Um, we do have a long road ahead of us, but luckily we have, um, some good support with

01:24:52.960 my co-counsel, the upper Midwest law center, uh, public interest law firm, uh, and then

01:24:58.520 a fair, uh, an organization you're on the board of directors of, uh, has platformed our

01:25:03.800 case and is also doing fundraising to help us get, get through this.

01:25:07.320 Um, they do have a, uh, fundraising page up on their website at fairforall.org slash,

01:25:15.340 uh, Gustillo hyphen V hyphen HHS.

01:25:19.100 Uh, that's G-U-S-T-I-L-O hyphen V hyphen HHS.

01:25:24.300 And again, at fairforall.org.

01:25:26.720 Yeah, no, that's important to know.

01:25:28.020 And of course, uh, part of my own disclosure, uh, that I said on the board of a group that,

01:25:32.300 that is supporting, I think I've made clear in our interview that I support you.

01:25:35.000 I don't think it's not on the nose because what they did to you is wrong and it, and

01:25:40.420 it's just, you need to look no further, further than the own organization, which is openly

01:25:43.680 supporting BLM.

01:25:44.620 That's okay.

01:25:45.420 But raising questions about BLM costs you your job and, you know, to your point, what

01:25:50.460 if they've been running around saying, um, you know, we really want to refer to, um,

01:25:55.140 every white patient who comes in as a white nationalist or a white supremacist.

01:25:59.580 And you said, we're not going to do that.

01:26:02.220 And then they fired you and voted 25 to one, right?

01:26:05.380 Like that.

01:26:06.120 Yes, of course you'd have a lawsuit that that wouldn't be lawful for them to do.

01:26:09.900 You're fighting back against racism.

01:26:11.800 And what's happened in these situations is, you know, some of these tenants that BLM pushes

01:26:15.840 are absolutely racist.

01:26:18.140 Um, they don't see it that way because they think you have to be a group in control, the

01:26:21.800 group that's quote powerful.

01:26:23.000 And that that's always white people, uh, in order for there to be racism.

01:26:27.000 So these are some of the issues you're going to be dealing with, Dan.

01:26:29.360 Um, you, so it's a, as of now, what claim are you asserting race discrimination?

01:26:35.360 Yes.

01:26:35.600 So, uh, race discrimination, retaliation for advocating for, uh, title seven compliance and

01:26:41.480 also Minnesota human rights act compliance and a first amendment retaliation claim that

01:26:45.860 addresses her, her off work speech on Facebook or elsewhere.

01:26:50.720 Mm hmm.

01:26:51.400 Yeah.

01:26:51.880 Well, can I ask you that about that one quickly though, because what if she'd been on her 0.99

01:26:55.020 social media, this was not the case, but what if she had saying the N word over and

01:26:58.960 over, you know, saying something very clearly racist and awful, could they then stamp on

01:27:04.840 her first amendment rights, understanding that they're a, you know, a county organization

01:27:08.400 or a city organization, that means the state's involved.

01:27:10.720 Could they then say you got to go?

01:27:13.380 Um, well, you know, on that specific factual scenario, I, I don't know.

01:27:18.980 Um, if there was an extreme disruption, it's possible they, there would be some wiggle room

01:27:23.760 there, but generally speaking, she's going to be protected in her off, off work political

01:27:29.440 speech, uh, from retaliation on the job while a public employee.

01:27:34.660 It, it's an important case.

01:27:36.500 If you get a bad ruling, it's going to be very bad for people who are already scared to

01:27:41.300 speak out.

01:27:41.780 But if you get a good ruling, it'll have the opposite effect.

01:27:45.540 So I know you're kind of hamstrung in how you respond to this, Dan, but how do you like

01:27:50.540 your judge?

01:27:52.600 Um, well, we just, we get, we got notice for our judicial assignment, uh, today.

01:27:57.720 Um, I think she'll, she'll be okay for us.

01:28:00.360 Uh, but, uh, you know, we're, we're looking to send this one up on appeal as well.

01:28:05.560 Um, so someday I think this case will probably be heard in the eighth circuit and, and we'll see

01:28:10.080 how it goes from there.

01:28:11.120 I do like our chances in the eighth circuit a lot.

01:28:13.960 Um, they, uh, have an older view of what equality means than the current, uh, proponents of equity.

01:28:21.260 And so I think once we get there, we're going to be in good shape.

01:28:25.120 And, uh, let's face it, if it goes to this U S Supreme court, uh, you're in a good position

01:28:30.160 too, cause it's more with the conservatives now.

01:28:31.980 And even the liberals have been fiercely protective for the most part of free speech rights.

01:28:37.200 And you've got a good free speech claim in there in addition to the others.

01:28:40.080 Listen, thank you for coming on and telling your story and for the courage you took to

01:28:44.480 speak out in the first place, doc.

01:28:45.760 We appreciate it.

01:28:46.800 Thank you so much.

01:28:47.980 And Daniel, thanks to you as well.

01:28:49.500 Thank you, Megan.

01:28:50.040 Um, okay.

01:28:51.200 And check it out.

01:28:51.660 If you can't remember all that, you can go for fair, go to fair for all.

01:28:54.840 Um, and, and all the links are there.

01:28:57.260 Don't miss tomorrow.

01:28:58.100 We got a big show then to going after Chesa Boudin.

01:29:00.340 That ought to be fun.

01:29:03.420 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

01:29:05.300 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:29:10.080 Bye.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - February 07, 2022

New Battle in Left's War on Joe Rogan, and Black Prosperity Under Trump, with Jason Riley ｜ Ep. 256

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