The Megyn Kelly Show - NEW Details About Guthrie Kidnapping Investigation, and GOP in Hollywood, with Kelsey Grammer, Brian Entin, Jim Fitzgerald, and Jonathan Gilliam

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00:01:00.860 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:06.280 Hey, everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.200 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:15.800 We've got a great interview coming up later in the show with actor Kelsey Grammer that you're not going to want to miss.

00:01:20.380 But first, the latest in the search for Nancy Guthrie, the 84-year-old mother of NBC News host Savannah Guthrie,

00:01:27.260 who has not been seen since Saturday night.

00:01:29.580 As we told you on AM Update this morning, if you missed AM Update, you should listen to it.

00:01:34.960 We always have a lot of great developments in there.

00:01:36.980 There was a major development last night when we heard from Savannah and her siblings themselves.

00:01:42.680 In a nearly four-minute video filmed on a couch seated together, Annie was on screen left, Savannah was in the center,

00:01:50.640 and their brother Cameron, who's, I think, a retired fighter jet pilot, was on the right.

00:01:55.900 Savannah pleads for her mother's return and addresses the reports of a ransom letter.

00:02:02.820 We, too, have heard the reports about a ransom letter in the media.

00:02:08.300 As a family, we are doing everything that we can.

00:02:14.300 We are ready to talk.

00:02:16.120 However, we live in a world where voices and images are easily manipulated.

00:02:27.840 We need to know, without a doubt, that she is alive and that you have her.

00:02:36.740 We want to hear from you, and we are ready to listen.

00:02:41.860 Please, reach out to us.

00:02:46.120 We are going to play a few more of these clips with our law enforcement experts later, but a few observations.

00:02:51.520 Let me just give you this one first, okay?

00:02:54.000 It was stunning to watch.

00:02:56.220 Stunning.

00:02:56.800 Because everyone in this country, virtually everyone in this country, has seen Savannah Guthrie on tape countless times,

00:03:04.080 looking directly into camera or reading a script in front of her.

00:03:08.300 We have all seen that many times.

00:03:10.140 And this was so different that, you know, of course she looked distraught.

00:03:18.340 I mean, she looked exhausted.

00:03:22.460 Doug and I were talking about this last night.

00:03:24.420 I'll bet she said, absolutely no sleep.

00:03:26.580 How would you fall asleep at night without a sleeping pill when your mother was missing?

00:03:31.460 When you didn't know whether your mom was alive or dead, whether she was in the custody of bad guys who wanted to hurt her,

00:03:38.680 when you'd seen what we believe was her blood outside of her home,

00:03:42.160 when you know she doesn't have access to her medication that she needs.

00:03:46.320 I mean, you could just see.

00:03:48.280 You could see that wear and tear on Savannah's face,

00:03:51.640 and you just wanted to reach out and try to make it better for her.

00:03:55.580 It was very jarring to see her that upset and just distraught is the word.

00:04:03.360 Look, the video itself was also somewhat jarring because it's, of course, not what you would expect from a top paid news anchor.

00:04:13.480 Clearly, they did not want to make it a slick video.

00:04:18.420 Obviously, she knows how to do that, and she would have the full resources of NBC to do it if she wanted to.

00:04:23.160 Clearly, they intentionally went a different way.

00:04:26.100 It's not even like HD quality video, even just like the quality of the actual filming, the film.

00:04:32.140 The background is as bland as can be.

00:04:35.140 The siblings, they're cramped together to all get into frame, which is also an interesting choice.

00:04:40.920 And they never acknowledge each other.

00:04:43.360 The three siblings never acknowledge each other.

00:04:45.920 They never, like, really interact.

00:04:49.620 They also all read from a script.

00:04:51.940 Savannah, she ad-libs all the time on the Today Show, as you know, but here she did not want to say one word that wasn't previously written down,

00:05:00.460 which, I mean, I think we all know why.

00:05:02.780 I mean, this had to have been coordinated closely with law enforcement,

00:05:05.420 and I'm sure some sort of hostage negotiator to make sure no triggers were activated, you know, in a potential bad guy who's got her mom.

00:05:15.180 And to the contrary, that maybe they could press some button inside this person that might, I don't even want to say tug on a heartstring.

00:05:23.240 How do you bank on that even being available in a kidnapping case like this?

00:05:27.100 But they're trying to reach him, so it's all carefully orchestrated.

00:05:31.940 And as we're going to show you, the first part of the message is dedicated to how wonderful their mom is.

00:05:36.980 Is there something strategic about that?

00:05:39.700 None of the spouses appear in this video.

00:05:41.620 We're going to see what we can glean from all of this in just a bit with two former FBI agents.

00:05:45.700 But first, we're going to go to someone who's been on the ground in Arizona getting scoop after scoop,

00:05:50.380 and that's News Nation's Brian Enten.

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00:06:52.280 Brian, welcome.

00:06:53.640 Thank you for all the great reporting you've been doing on this case.

00:06:55.780 What did you make of that video last night?

00:06:57.740 Well, a few things that I noticed, I'm sitting in the car, by the way, Megan,

00:07:00.320 outside where the press conference is going to be right here at the sheriff's office.

00:07:03.500 That's why I'm in the car.

00:07:04.220 So a few things I noticed.

00:07:07.080 I was outside Annie Guthrie's house yesterday when federal agents arrived,

00:07:11.840 the ICAC agents, which are the Internet Crimes Against Children agents,

00:07:15.300 but they specialize in kidnappings and going through electronic devices.

00:07:19.660 And I noticed that they walked in with a ring light and a small tripod for an iPhone,

00:07:25.940 which I thought was strange.

00:07:26.940 Like, why are they going in with a ring light?

00:07:28.940 It all makes sense now.

00:07:30.360 They were the ones who helped coordinate the video.

00:07:33.840 They likely are the ones who helped come up with the script.

00:07:37.920 And yeah, there's the video right there.

00:07:39.700 That was them going in.

00:07:41.180 So it was just kind of interesting.

00:07:42.440 After I saw the video, I thought, okay, that makes sense now.

00:07:44.120 That's why they had the ring light and the tripod.

00:07:46.460 The other thing that I've learned is it is no coincidence that the video was just posted on Instagram.

00:07:53.160 I have been told that there is an arrangement that has been made between FBI and Instagram

00:07:59.680 where behind the scenes they're now able to monitor messages that are coming in,

00:08:05.580 comments that are coming in, and they can, you know, work with Instagram to go back and, you know,

00:08:11.740 trace where these things are coming from in terms of if anyone now tries to reach out to Savannah saying,

00:08:17.600 you know, I'm the one who sent the note.

00:08:20.740 Brian, what did you make of her statement there, Savannah,

00:08:23.800 where she said, we've heard the reports about a ransom letter.

00:08:27.800 I mean, almost certainly the authorities have shown her the ransom letters that have come in,

00:08:34.680 right?

00:08:34.840 There've been three in total.

00:08:37.180 And, you know, we haven't had independent confirmation that they're identical, right?

00:08:42.420 Like there could be, we don't know.

00:08:44.360 In my head, I was kind of assuming it was all the same thing,

00:08:46.580 but we actually don't know whether they're identical.

00:08:48.780 But wouldn't you believe that Savannah had seen the ransom letters prior to now?

00:08:53.760 She has seen the ransom letters.

00:08:55.100 I can confirm that.

00:08:56.040 I heard that from the sheriff and she saw, let's see, today's Thursday.

00:09:01.180 So we started reporting about the ransom letters yesterday and it was the night before.

00:09:06.740 So I'm getting my days confused, but it was the night before the news went public about the ransom

00:09:11.080 letters that the sheriff took one of the ransom letters to Savannah Guthrie directly and showed it

00:09:16.980 to her when no one even knew the ransom letter existed yet.

00:09:19.980 Remember TMZ?

00:09:20.900 We started, yeah, no, we didn't know it was the night before that.

00:09:24.580 So they were very quiet about, about it, but they already had the ransom letter and they went

00:09:29.420 and showed Savannah the ransom letter.

00:09:32.720 Wait, didn't the, I'm trying to remember.

00:09:34.740 I think the ransom letter hit on TMZ on Tuesday, which would mean Monday night, Savannah was shown

00:09:41.320 the ransom letter, which, which makes this a little bit more interesting because one of

00:09:45.420 the things that seems sketchy about the ransom letter was it took them a few days to get out

00:09:49.560 their demand for millions of dollars.

00:09:51.300 You know, like you've got a woman in custody and you're kind of sitting around waiting while

00:09:55.840 the whole world is talking about this case.

00:09:57.400 But if they stole her in the wee hours of Sunday morning and the very next day made this demand,

00:10:04.760 maybe it's more credible.

00:10:06.460 And we don't know whether the ransom letters are credible at all.

00:10:09.280 We don't know whether she actually was kidnapped by somebody.

00:10:11.740 We don't know whether she was, forgive me, but possibly killed in the house and they just

00:10:15.380 got rid of the body.

00:10:17.020 We don't know any of that, but we are keeping an open mind on the ransom letters because it

00:10:21.120 certainly seems like Savannah and her siblings are.

00:10:23.720 Yeah, that's right.

00:10:24.400 And you're right.

00:10:24.900 I got my days confused.

00:10:25.700 It was Tuesday that TMZ went public with their ransom letter.

00:10:29.640 It was Monday night.

00:10:30.880 I am told that the sheriff went to Savannah Guthrie with the ransom letter.

00:10:34.780 And I'm told it's the ransom letter that went to the local TV affiliate here in Tucson

00:10:40.520 that was shown to Savannah.

00:10:42.140 I don't know if they're all the same.

00:10:44.100 The other thing that I thought was interesting, Megan, in the video is she talks about, you

00:10:49.160 know, there's ways to manipulate video and audio these days, like with AI, which also makes

00:10:54.840 me wonder, did they send some kind of video with a voice, with a voice sounding like Nancy

00:11:02.480 and now Savannah is saying, we need more.

00:11:04.660 We need to know that this is actually real.

00:11:08.020 That's exactly.

00:11:08.780 I have the same issue.

00:11:10.060 Exactly.

00:11:10.360 Like, why would you talk about how images and voices have been manipulated or are easy to

00:11:14.720 manipulate unless you'd someone had taken a shot?

00:11:18.440 That's how it seemed to me.

00:11:20.180 You know, I don't know if you've spoken with Harvey Levin or any of the folks who have received

00:11:26.300 the ransom notes.

00:11:27.700 But when I hear them talk about them, like, I can't tell whether they believe them.

00:11:34.340 You know, it seems that they have some some doubt, Brian.

00:11:37.260 I don't know.

00:11:37.440 There was Mary Coleman.

00:11:38.340 She spoke with CNN yesterday and she seemed like, you know what?

00:11:42.800 Keep an open mind on the ransom note.

00:11:44.500 It really here's a clip.

00:11:46.980 It's not six.

00:11:48.020 Listen here.

00:11:48.520 A lot of it is information that only someone who is holding her for ransom would know some

00:11:53.860 very sensitive information and things that people who weren't there when she was taken

00:11:58.960 captive would know.

00:12:00.440 One of the detectives did get back to us and ask us for some more information so that they

00:12:04.520 can start searching for an IP address and things of that nature to try and figure out

00:12:09.240 who or what people are responsible here.

00:12:12.160 You know, it also included a dollar amount to deadline and again, other specifics that

00:12:16.580 only Guthrie's abductor might know.

00:12:18.680 So that definitely raised some red flags.

00:12:20.580 When we saw some of those details, it was clear after a couple of sentences that, you

00:12:26.220 know, this might not be a hope.

00:12:29.280 So that's that was a much more ringing endorsement of the ransom note being real than I heard

00:12:35.260 from Harvey Levin.

00:12:36.540 He seemed he didn't seem to dismiss it, Brian, but he seemed a little bit more skeptical.

00:12:41.620 So are you hearing more about what was in the ransom notes that would have led to, for

00:12:46.240 example, this anchor, Mary Coleman, to say, no, we believe it was clear a couple from a

00:12:50.980 couple of sentences this was not this might not be a hoax?

00:12:53.560 Yeah, I mean, I think they must think they might be real or they wouldn't have had Savannah

00:12:57.580 Guthrie make that video that came out last night.

00:13:01.000 All I know about what is in the ransom notes is that there is specific information about what

00:13:06.500 Nancy Guthrie was wearing and also specific information about details from inside the

00:13:13.680 house that apparently only someone would know who was inside the house.

00:13:17.500 What I don't know is if any of that information is correct.

00:13:20.980 Is it even the right outfit that she was wearing?

00:13:23.180 I don't know.

00:13:24.380 Right.

00:13:25.000 And the sheriff.

00:13:26.460 Look, the sheriff.

00:13:26.940 And how would the family know what she was wearing?

00:13:28.760 Right.

00:13:29.180 That's a good point.

00:13:29.900 And yeah, unless they just I don't know if they, you know, go in the house when she goes

00:13:33.460 to bed sometimes and they know about her pajamas or.

00:13:35.240 Yeah, that's true.

00:13:36.100 We don't know if the family would even know.

00:13:38.500 Mm hmm.

00:13:39.480 All right.

00:13:39.980 Talk to me about what you saw yesterday, because you've been on scene.

00:13:42.820 You're the one the audience probably knows, but you're the one who found the blood, the

00:13:46.580 droplets of blood still left outside of the front door.

00:13:50.080 The one of the news media.

00:13:51.180 Obviously, we believe the cops had this, but they left.

00:13:53.800 They turned the house back over to the family and they left it unguarded.

00:13:56.560 And you went on the doorstep like a good old fashioned shoe leather reporter and found

00:14:01.340 the actual evidence, which was shocking to see.

00:14:03.400 And then, Brian, they they reassumed custody of the house yesterday.

00:14:09.640 Yeah, that was kind of shocking.

00:14:10.980 I was just out there.

00:14:12.260 You know, I've been out there for like 36 hours just waiting to see if anything happens.

00:14:15.580 And and the Guthries had hired private security to come out and just sit in the driveway.

00:14:19.820 So we're used to seeing them.

00:14:21.200 But then all of a sudden, around 430, all of these deputies drive down the street in unmarked

00:14:27.060 pickup trucks and in like an in a big evidence van.

00:14:31.000 And and then they all got out of there were others that got out of a minivan.

00:14:33.920 And at first I thought they were FBI, but I do think they were local sheriff's deputies.

00:14:37.720 They were in just plain clothing.

00:14:39.740 And all of a sudden I got this video.

00:14:41.700 They they start putting the crime scene tape back up and they all get out of the car.

00:14:46.300 And we put our drone up right away because it's hard to really see what's going on because

00:14:49.300 it's, you know, the house is kind of set back and there's all the cactuses.

00:14:52.320 And we could see that they were searching the area around the house.

00:14:55.680 But then also they were going in and out of the garage with evidence bags, bringing things

00:15:01.920 out.

00:15:02.180 And it looked like we were trying to see through the windows.

00:15:04.400 There was one room in the front of the house that they were definitely in the entire

00:15:07.960 time.

00:15:08.560 And they were there.

00:15:09.460 Yeah, there's our shot of the this is your video, by the way, as you're speaking, we're

00:15:12.320 showing of the garage.

00:15:13.300 You've got this with your drone.

00:15:14.520 That's the garage.

00:15:15.200 Yeah. And so they were I think they knew what they were after because it all seemed

00:15:19.880 just so coordinated because they put the tape up.

00:15:22.620 They were there for just two hours.

00:15:24.500 Then they all packed up very quickly.

00:15:26.560 They took the tape down and they were gone.

00:15:30.600 And what happened in the back of the property?

00:15:33.440 Same like more searching back there, because, as you know, our mutual friend, Ashley Banfield

00:15:38.200 is reporting that a law enforcement source told her a bunch of things, including that the

00:15:43.180 back door was wide open when law enforcement showed up and that the ring camera, the net

00:15:48.040 was a nest camera had been destroyed, both the one in the front and the one in the back.

00:15:52.840 So there is some question about whether the intruder may have used the back door and what

00:15:57.500 happened back there because they were they were behind the house yesterday.

00:15:59.400 No, they were.

00:16:00.160 Yeah, they were behind the house.

00:16:01.360 And they also had a canine that they had out there, you know, sniffing around and going

00:16:05.800 around the house.

00:16:06.900 But it seemed like they were more focused inside the house.

00:16:10.000 I mean, at first they did a search around the house, which you can see here.

00:16:12.420 They went out into the brush.

00:16:14.320 But then they it seemed like most of the time then they all went into the house.

00:16:19.140 Hmm.

00:16:19.420 Um, what what was the grid search you reported on yesterday?

00:16:24.480 So I was going back and forth between Nancy's house and Annie's house, which is about 10

00:16:30.820 minutes away, just trying to kind of keep an eye on both places.

00:16:33.700 And when I was driving back to Nancy's house in her neighborhood, there was another search

00:16:38.460 happening with about half a dozen deputies where they were, you know, lined up doing a

00:16:43.860 grid search in a field near her house.

00:16:46.380 Um, so I don't know if they got the way you do, like, forgive me to find like a dead body

00:16:51.640 potentially, right, where you're sort of shoulder to shoulder walking together, correct, or like

00:16:55.800 a little piece of evidence.

00:16:56.660 That way they don't miss anything.

00:16:57.740 They all line up.

00:16:58.820 Uh, so they were doing that.

00:17:00.120 And then the night before, uh, right before the sunset, there was this helicopter that came

00:17:05.600 out of sheriff's office helicopter, uh, that did a pass over the house.

00:17:09.300 So at first I thought like, oh, maybe they were just coming to check on things, but then

00:17:12.220 they were there for an hour hovering very, very low with two deputies,

00:17:15.880 peering out the helicopter, looking down and just circling the house.

00:17:19.640 So I, I think they're probably getting different tips coming in that they have to run out on

00:17:24.100 and check on.

00:17:24.800 Maybe they heard there was something in the field yesterday and that's why they were

00:17:27.360 there.

00:17:27.660 Uh, but they've, they've definitely been very active.

00:17:31.140 We have this online video of, uh, Nancy Guthrie's house and the property around it.

00:17:36.920 And it really does show the backyard.

00:17:38.960 It's not that big.

00:17:40.080 You can see there's brush.

00:17:41.040 Can we put it on the screen, please?

00:17:41.980 There's brush in the back of the house.

00:17:43.980 Um, but it's not, it's not like huge.

00:17:46.240 This is just from, from Google maps.

00:17:48.040 So it's like, it wouldn't take that long to search that Brian.

00:17:51.260 In other words, like it's very manageable to make sure God forbid, she's not back there

00:17:56.620 or a weapon wouldn't be back there.

00:17:59.020 It's not, it's not a ton to search.

00:18:00.320 Am I wrong?

00:18:00.960 No, you're not wrong at all.

00:18:02.140 Um, and, and that area, you know, it, like I said, it's, it's wooded with cactuses, but

00:18:07.600 it's also kind of open.

00:18:08.820 Like it wouldn't be terribly difficult to search.

00:18:11.780 Um, and they did a search the first day too, you know, that border patrol out here, they

00:18:15.100 had the border patrol dogs.

00:18:16.400 So it seems like they've been pretty thorough in terms of searching the land around the

00:18:22.060 house.

00:18:23.080 Mm-hmm.

00:18:23.960 So now what happened at Annie Guthrie's house where, by the way, she lives there with her

00:18:30.040 husband, Tommaso, right?

00:18:31.620 And is Savannah staying with them?

00:18:34.020 She is.

00:18:34.500 It's my understanding.

00:18:35.320 She is staying there.

00:18:36.000 We haven't seen her come out, but it would, we heard she was there and it makes perfect

00:18:40.600 sense because when I saw them go in with the ring light and the tripod, and then they recorded

00:18:44.260 the video, I presume inside that house with Savannah.

00:18:47.400 So I, I, I'm 99% sure she's there.

00:18:50.920 Um, and can you describe the house for us?

00:18:53.060 Like what, what kind of house is it?

00:18:54.320 Yeah, it's, it's kind of a ranch style.

00:18:56.480 I think they bought it a couple of years ago for $650,000.

00:18:59.240 It's a nice house.

00:19:00.460 The neighborhood is similar to Nancy's house, Nancy's neighborhood where the houses all

00:19:05.940 sit on maybe like an acre of land or a couple of acres.

00:19:08.720 Uh, it's not right in town.

00:19:09.960 It's out also in the foothills.

00:19:11.980 Um, and it, it's just kind of, what do they do for a living?

00:19:14.760 It's kind of like a normal house.

00:19:15.860 Annie and her husband.

00:19:16.740 Uh, uh, Annie is a poet.

00:19:18.620 Like, I don't know that they have, I mean, I hate to say this, but I don't know they have

00:19:21.460 like real jobs.

00:19:22.380 Annie's a poet.

00:19:23.760 Uh, and Tomas is like in a band and I think was a, was a teacher.

00:19:27.640 I was looking through records yesterday.

00:19:29.280 I know he either worked or still works at a charter school.

00:19:32.760 Um, and so they, you know, they have like normal cars.

00:19:35.980 I think she has a Camry and then there's an SUV.

00:19:39.020 Um, and so I saw Tomas and Annie together leaving the house, uh, the day before yesterday.

00:19:46.180 So that would have been Tuesday.

00:19:47.480 I didn't see Tomas at all yesterday.

00:19:50.000 And none of my like friends or colleagues that were out there keeping an eye in the house

00:19:53.440 saw him either, but we did see Annie outside the house yesterday and we saw, uh, Savannah's

00:19:59.080 brother there.

00:20:00.080 They were coming and going.

00:20:01.440 Um, and the FBI was there the day before yesterday.

00:20:04.000 And then yesterday, the only, uh, agents that I saw were those ICAC agents that were going

00:20:09.580 in presumably to help make the video.

00:20:11.800 So yeah, the, um, you know, Ashley's reporting that the authorities seized Annie's car the

00:20:19.560 day before yesterday.

00:20:20.800 Did you see two cars on property or do you have any reason to, you know, believe or disbelieve

00:20:26.940 that particular piece of her reporting?

00:20:28.400 Yeah, I don't have any reason to disbelieve it, but I don't, I don't know that I saw one

00:20:33.020 car outside and there could be a car in the garage.

00:20:36.000 No one got any video of a car being towed, which I think is kind of interesting just because

00:20:40.200 there's, you know, how it is at these things, there's like always some camera outside.

00:20:43.560 There's like these paparazzis that show up and freelance people who stay there all night.

00:20:47.520 So I'm kind of surprised we never saw any video.

00:20:50.700 I mean, that would be kind of a big deal for the car to be towed, you know?

00:20:54.420 That's a good point.

00:20:55.600 Well, we, and we don't know whether it's true.

00:20:56.880 Even Ashley doesn't know that it's true.

00:20:58.080 She was told by one single senior law enforcement source that it was, and no one else has been able

00:21:03.420 to match the reporting on that or the other piece about Annie's husband, Tomas, which

00:21:07.760 also remains unconfirmed, but we don't know what's happening there.

00:21:11.480 No reporting, right?

00:21:12.640 At this point, at this point about any suspects or persons of interest.

00:21:15.560 Right.

00:21:15.860 That's right.

00:21:16.520 Other than Ashley's.

00:21:17.440 Right.

00:21:17.920 She's, she's, that's the only reporting I've heard.

00:21:20.040 The latest from the sheriff is that there's no known suspect and no person of interest,

00:21:25.620 which, which back to what Ashley has said, I mean, it wouldn't be uncommon for them to be

00:21:29.580 essentially lying to us.

00:21:30.900 I mean, we've seen it happen again and again in other cases, but, but they seem pretty passionate

00:21:35.500 when they say that they don't have a suspect.

00:21:37.760 So what did they do at Annie's house?

00:21:39.240 Did they search Annie's house or did they just go inside with camera equipment to help

00:21:42.740 us presumably film that video?

00:21:44.580 Yeah.

00:21:44.720 I didn't see them searching at all.

00:21:46.500 I just saw them go in with the, um, with the camera equipment and then the day before

00:21:50.660 just kind of talking to them in the driveway.

00:21:52.820 And, and the thing is if not, I mean, I'm pretty sure Savannah's staying there.

00:21:56.340 It would make sense that they would be coming to the house frequently to give them updates,

00:22:00.440 to check on them, to talk to them.

00:22:01.900 So I don't think it's that unusual that the feds are coming in and out.

00:22:05.560 Yes.

00:22:06.560 And just to be clear over at the mom's house, Nancy's house, there were two searches yesterday,

00:22:11.120 one in the afternoon, and then another one in the evening that included the garage and

00:22:14.660 the helicopter overhead.

00:22:15.620 So the one search, uh, in it earlier in the day was not actually at her house.

00:22:20.380 It was close by in the field.

00:22:22.220 The only search at her house was the one later at four 30, where it was kind of the big hubbub

00:22:26.860 where they shut, you know, shut everything down, put the crime scene tape up.

00:22:29.980 Uh, so that was, that was the only search at her actual house.

00:22:33.740 Two other quick questions.

00:22:35.040 The Daily Mail today is reporting that, that Nancy Guthrie did not attend a church in person

00:22:43.100 and that she hadn't been for years since the COVID pandemic, that instead she'd been

00:22:47.740 participating in the live stream into this church.

00:22:51.060 And then they had one source at the church who told them that the church for the record

00:22:56.020 is not saying that on the record, they're not saying anything.

00:22:58.460 They're saying we're not commenting.

00:23:00.380 Um, but they're saying there'd be no way for anybody to know who is participating in

00:23:06.560 the live stream.

00:23:07.280 It's not, it's not like a thing where you can see who's joining, um, you know, people live

00:23:11.900 stream in or they don't.

00:23:13.060 Now that would be a material change from the story that the sheriff told, which was that

00:23:18.300 somebody at church noticed Nancy wasn't there.

00:23:20.880 She was a religious church goer and, um, that that person called the family out of concern.

00:23:27.500 Have you heard anything on this either way?

00:23:29.520 So the church near her house that we went to, the pastor told, uh, my producer, the same

00:23:35.040 thing that the Daily Mail is reporting that she switched to online after COVID and what didn't

00:23:41.300 come to church on Sundays.

00:23:42.760 I just assumed maybe she also went to a different church.

00:23:45.980 Um, that, that was just my first assumption that maybe we had the wrong church or that

00:23:50.340 she had switched in the last couple of months or maybe, you know, sometimes people go to

00:23:53.300 like a couple of churches.

00:23:54.360 Maybe she goes online to that one sometimes and likes a different one too, some Sundays.

00:23:58.080 Um, so I didn't read into it.

00:24:00.880 Like the sheriff definitely had the wrong story.

00:24:02.940 I just thought, gosh, maybe there's another church we don't know about.

00:24:06.120 Yep.

00:24:06.660 That could be with yet another, another button we need to close.

00:24:09.720 Last but not least, what are we expecting at the presser that happens today at 1 p.m.

00:24:13.600 Eastern?

00:24:14.320 Honestly, I don't know.

00:24:15.380 I mean, it's, it's been so unpredictable with the sheriff, you know, the first couple of days

00:24:19.020 he was very open and every time you would call or interview him, he would kind of give you

00:24:22.900 a new, a little nugget.

00:24:23.760 Uh, and then once the FBI got involved at the last press conference, he was much, much

00:24:28.260 more guarded.

00:24:29.520 Uh, so I'm not sure what to expect.

00:24:32.240 Um, I mean, he's obviously going to have to comment on the search yesterday on Savannah's

00:24:36.340 new video.

00:24:36.960 So he, the last time we've seen him on camera, he was said that he believed that Nancy Guthrie

00:24:42.260 is alive, which was kind of a big statement to make.

00:24:45.740 So I'm, I'm interested to ask him about that.

00:24:48.160 Um, so honestly, I don't know.

00:24:49.820 But then he followed it up with, I have to believe that.

00:24:52.460 Yeah.

00:24:52.880 Well, that's the other thing.

00:24:53.760 He'll say, it was like, all right.

00:24:55.180 He says these things and then he says that's, and then he'll say, well, that's what my gut

00:24:58.400 tells me.

00:24:59.080 And it's like, okay, so is this based on the investigation or is this based on what your gut

00:25:03.000 is telling you?

00:25:03.640 You know, it's like kind of weird.

00:25:05.160 Yeah.

00:25:06.080 I feel like we're three, two, one until the FBI takes over messaging entirely in this

00:25:10.160 case.

00:25:10.740 And maybe we'll see some of that today.

00:25:12.460 I don't know.

00:25:12.880 We're, we're T minus half an hour or so until it starts.

00:25:15.360 Brian, you're the best.

00:25:16.540 You love your reporting.

00:25:17.560 Thank you so much for everything.

00:25:18.620 Thank you so much, Megan.

00:25:19.460 I appreciate that.

00:25:20.880 Brian Enten, everybody check out his YouTube feed because he keeps us on the edge of our

00:25:24.700 seats.

00:25:25.120 He's always walking, always walking.

00:25:26.640 He covered Kohlberger like nobody else.

00:25:28.580 And he's covered this case.

00:25:29.460 Great as well.

00:25:30.760 Coming up, we've got two former FBI agents to weigh in on that video and the latest developments.

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00:27:38.200 We're going to break down the latest now with the search for Nancy Guthrie from a law enforcement perspective with two of the best.

00:27:44.260 Former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Jim Fitzgerald, co-host of the Cold Red podcast, and former Navy SEAL and FBI Special Agent Jonathan Gilliam are with me now.

00:27:54.160 Guys, great to see you.

00:27:55.200 Jim, welcome back to you as well.

00:27:56.980 So that video was quite something.

00:28:00.060 I'll kick it off with you, Jim, since you've been our guide through this.

00:28:03.700 What did you make of it?

00:28:05.220 Yeah, it was predictable.

00:28:06.540 And I don't mean that in a bad way.

00:28:07.760 But we talked in the last few days, Megan, about that this was going to be done.

00:28:12.440 And it was going to be done under advisement of the FBI and the Sheriff's Department, perhaps even some attorneys of the Guthrie family.

00:28:21.540 So it was it was it was well facilitated and put together in that regard.

00:28:27.340 The visuals were important and obviously the words were important.

00:28:31.820 The goal was to humanize Mrs. Guthrie to make sure that she is seen as a human being.

00:28:38.340 I don't think they called her Nancy once, if I recall.

00:28:42.540 One time.

00:28:42.920 All right.

00:28:43.220 One time they said her name.

00:28:44.640 Everyone else, every other time was mom, mama, mommy.

00:28:48.700 And that's good.

00:28:49.660 That's that's that's healthy.

00:28:50.860 I was glad to see that.

00:28:52.140 I would have advised the victims in this case to do the same thing.

00:28:56.740 It was all about her fragility, both, you know, physically, you know, in her heart, certainly in that regard and her overall health.

00:29:05.820 And I'm glad they brought that up, too.

00:29:07.620 So the important part in that in that presentation was humanize her, number one, and then say, look, we're open to talk.

00:29:14.840 We're open to discuss this matter.

00:29:16.880 Give us some sort of communication.

00:29:19.180 Now, what we don't know yet, Megan, is are one or more of these notes, these letters, these communications real or the ones we don't even know about that are real?

00:29:29.500 And are there certain words or expressions that the kidnappers, again, we're assuming at this point, perhaps that's what it is, wanted them to put in there?

00:29:38.640 I know in the D.C. sniper case, Chief Moots was asked to put the line out there.

00:29:44.820 We have the ducks in a noose.

00:29:46.960 I'm paraphrasing.

00:29:48.260 There was an odd spelling of the word noose.

00:29:50.140 So there's times that kidnappers, they have the control.

00:29:52.340 They have the power.

00:29:53.320 They want to put people out there saying something.

00:29:56.020 I also want to know, and I'll leave it at this.

00:29:57.400 And I think, was that the, who was sitting next to Savannah?

00:30:01.420 I'm not sure who the man was.

00:30:03.080 Her brother, Savannah's brother, Cameron, her older brother.

00:30:05.600 And he said something at the very end, not much.

00:30:08.140 And he was wearing a baseball cap, but I couldn't make out what the logo was on the cap.

00:30:14.480 I'm not sure if that's significant or not.

00:30:16.900 It may be nothing.

00:30:18.060 Maybe he always wears a baseball cap wherever he goes.

00:30:20.360 But I would like to know if that is something that the, you know, put a baseball cap on.

00:30:25.440 This means you're willing to do this, that, or the other to try to get mom back.

00:30:29.820 So there are just some very basic.

00:30:31.260 Some sort of signal.

00:30:32.780 Possibly speaking.

00:30:33.840 Can I ask you about this line?

00:30:35.560 So Savannah, I mentioned at the top of the hour, it was extraordinary to witness.

00:30:40.440 I mean, it was excruciating.

00:30:41.540 Um, but it was also jarring because, you know, Savannah's manner, her, everything about her

00:30:48.500 was just so different than what we normally see for obvious reasons.

00:30:51.960 But I also did wonder, you know, there's a reason, Jim, she didn't deviate from that script,

00:30:56.920 right?

00:30:57.060 I mean, like Savannah can absolutely look into camera and speak from the heart, especially

00:31:01.360 on an issue like this, but they probably did not allow that, right?

00:31:05.580 I mean, I would imagine the FBI is saying absolutely not.

00:31:08.840 Yeah.

00:31:08.960 Don't go off script.

00:31:09.880 It may not have been written word for word, but certainly bullet points.

00:31:13.560 I have no doubt they rehearsed it.

00:31:15.480 And this, this is all a positive thing.

00:31:17.000 They should have.

00:31:18.020 And, uh, and did a few different versions and they no doubt, you know, and she, it was

00:31:21.900 from the heart.

00:31:22.500 She didn't have to fake that.

00:31:23.660 Of course, we're aware of that nor her sister, nor her brother.

00:31:26.520 So, uh, but they wanted to make sure the right intonation, the right information was

00:31:30.880 put out there because they know, you know, and I'm still going to assume Mrs.

00:31:35.100 Guthrie's alive and, uh, and who's ever holding her is in, you know, constant

00:31:39.560 contact with her.

00:31:40.800 And, uh, I should add here too.

00:31:42.660 I'm glad that they spoke to her mother.

00:31:44.500 Uh, they spoke to their mother directly, you know, mom, if you can hear this, mom, we

00:31:48.580 want you to know we're thinking of you every day.

00:31:50.640 We're praying for you.

00:31:51.760 And, uh, so that's important too.

00:31:53.620 So why, why are you glad?

00:31:55.060 Well, uh, first of all, if, if they allow Mrs.

00:31:57.980 Guthrie to hear or see this, uh, that's, uh, that will be important to her.

00:32:02.400 It would give her something to keep on, uh, keep pushing.

00:32:05.740 And let me then just go right off from that too.

00:32:08.260 I'm also glad they said they're willing to talk, but they need some sort of proof.

00:32:12.300 And they even threw out there essentially with AI, there's ways of manipulating, uh,

00:32:17.220 these types of pictures.

00:32:18.080 So we want something to know our, our mother, our mama, uh, you know, different terms is

00:32:22.880 still alive.

00:32:23.460 So they really covered a lot in that, I don't know, three minutes or so.

00:32:27.320 And, uh, and I think they got everything out there of importance.

00:32:30.240 They were obviously guided well.

00:32:31.660 And it was clearly from the heart that they put those words together.

00:32:34.940 So Jonathan, what did you make of it?

00:32:37.500 Did you, like, there's a set off of quite a debate on whether they're in negotiations

00:32:43.000 with someone already, or they're begging to have a conversation with someone.

00:32:49.880 Um, what, what, cause they said, you know, we're ready to talk, we're ready to listen.

00:32:55.960 And then there was that line about how, well, images and voices can be manipulated, which

00:33:00.580 kind of suggested that they'd already received one, an image of their mom from this potential

00:33:07.080 kidnapper.

00:33:07.680 I don't, what was your take on all that?

00:33:08.940 Well, you know, it, it's interesting because being on this side of law enforcement now out

00:33:13.720 and looking in, uh, as you know, and, and James would know, we're, we're trying to investigate

00:33:18.540 what the police are actually doing.

00:33:21.740 We're not just looking at this and analyzing the crime.

00:33:24.140 We're trying to analyze exactly what is being done.

00:33:27.380 And that's a difficult thing.

00:33:28.560 But what I try to do is I look, I take all the possibilities, I put them on a whiteboard

00:33:33.700 and then I start looking in particular at certain aspects of it.

00:33:37.560 And I try not to narrow it down to one specific thing.

00:33:40.560 But I think in this case, what, what we can gleam from this is that first they're taking

00:33:47.480 that, uh, the possibility that these ransom letters and that, uh, this communication is

00:33:54.540 real.

00:33:54.800 So they're taking that, uh, seriously.

00:33:57.140 And there's, I think if this was a complete ruse, uh, they might be able to track this

00:34:03.180 pretty quick or they would get a sense of whether or not it was real or not, but they're taking

00:34:07.600 it seriously.

00:34:08.140 And that's good.

00:34:09.280 Seriously enough where they make a video with the family and put it out.

00:34:13.280 So that leads me to believe that, that there's a potential that this is actually something

00:34:20.000 that has validity.

00:34:21.120 Um, so then I start looking at statistics of how these things typically work out and who

00:34:29.960 is normally involved.

00:34:31.620 And we, we don't see a lot of these high profile, uh, uh, ransoms and kidnappings anymore.

00:34:39.060 Uh, that just doesn't happen that often.

00:34:40.880 I think it has a lot to do with cameras and has a lot to do with, uh, the way that things

00:34:45.120 occur inside the United States.

00:34:46.900 We see these all the time in Mexico.

00:34:49.860 So that's another point of this is that they are right next to the border.

00:34:54.400 They're very close to the border.

00:34:56.400 So if there is any potential that someone along the way identified her for some reason, I don't

00:35:02.360 think if somebody across the border, uh, was just wandering around in these, uh, these

00:35:07.980 different communities and, and picked one person, uh, at random to take them back over the border,

00:35:13.720 it would be somebody that had to have met her, had an encounter with her or studied for whatever

00:35:19.240 reason, who she is to go after her because she has, or is connected to somebody that has

00:35:24.400 money.

00:35:25.100 So these are things that I'm starting to look at and the potential for a, an abduction and

00:35:32.580 a ransom is, is higher now than it was before the video.

00:35:36.740 So I can't look at the video and say that, uh, it's real, but I can say that, uh, that

00:35:43.260 the, the, the deduction is real, but I can look at it and say the potential there because

00:35:47.020 of this video and the way that the, uh, law enforcement is acting is it's leading some

00:35:53.520 credibility to that.

00:35:55.340 Jim, let me play you a soundbite from Savannah's sister, Annie.

00:35:59.300 She spoke a little in the video, not as much as Savannah, but there, what this, this line

00:36:05.300 kind of jumped out at me as odd.

00:36:07.720 And I, to your point about the brother wearing the baseball cap and are there other clues in

00:36:12.400 here?

00:36:12.520 Like, are, is it possible they're saying things that they've been asked to say?

00:36:16.420 Just tell me what you think of this.

00:36:17.840 Um, it's sought to the light is missing from our lives.

00:36:24.800 Nancy is our mother.

00:36:26.160 We are her children.

00:36:30.380 She is our beacon.

00:36:33.400 She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances.

00:36:40.020 She chooses joy day after day, despite having already passed through great trials of pain

00:36:47.320 and grief.

00:36:50.540 We are always going to be merely human, just normal human people who need our mom, mama,

00:37:02.280 mama.

00:37:05.400 If you're listening, we need you to come home.

00:37:09.500 We miss you.

00:37:10.440 Okay.

00:37:13.440 So that the parts, all of that sounded just like strange language to me, to be honest,

00:37:19.080 it sounded just like not the way you're used to hearing people talk.

00:37:23.340 And, and in particular, where she said, we are always going to be merely human, just normal

00:37:29.020 human people who need our mom.

00:37:31.720 So am I reading too much into this, Jim?

00:37:33.900 Well, as a linguist, forensic linguist who compares language all the time from the manifesto to

00:37:40.260 Ted Kuczynski and, you know, a thousand other cases after that, uh, context is important.

00:37:45.880 How does Annie normally speak or write?

00:37:48.240 Now, of course it wouldn't be as contrite and as, and as serious as we have in this particular

00:37:52.300 message right now.

00:37:53.640 But does she tend to maybe wax poetic sometimes in, in certain conversations?

00:37:58.200 I guess she's a poet.

00:37:59.580 Well, okay, there you go.

00:38:00.800 So that helps.

00:38:02.080 And, and again, if this is from the heart, I genuinely support what she's saying.

00:38:06.220 I can't imagine, again, there's a lot of supposition here.

00:38:09.300 If there are kidnappers, number one, if they've already reached out, number two, uh, if one

00:38:15.220 of these letters is how they reached out that we know about, as opposed to a communication

00:38:19.700 we don't know about, number three.

00:38:21.380 So, uh, are there some instructions in there, including what are they wearing and how are

00:38:26.380 they sitting?

00:38:26.900 And in the order in which you sit, we'll tell us you mean this, or it'll mean Friday

00:38:31.160 instead of Saturday.

00:38:32.360 It'll mean noon instead of midnight.

00:38:34.680 Uh, I'm just throwing out there other cases of which I am familiar over the years in which

00:38:39.340 clues were asked like that.

00:38:40.920 The old days, you'd put a response in the classified ads of a newspaper.

00:38:44.500 You're probably not going to see that today, but it could be something on Craigslist or something

00:38:48.820 like that where they have to put a response in there.

00:38:51.180 And then this was the complimentary, uh, uh, advisement to it, but all that aside, kidnap

00:38:56.880 or not, if someone is holding her for some other reason, and we don't know what that would

00:39:01.420 be.

00:39:01.840 We talked about revenge motives, our first day together, Megan, uh, uh, you know, they'd

00:39:07.420 still want to humanize her, as I said.

00:39:09.440 So, uh, the, uh, the sister Annie was, was very gracious and very loquacious and how she

00:39:15.540 was pronouncing and saying what she said clearly from the heart.

00:39:20.820 And I don't think anyone in the BAU behavioral analysis would have any problem with the, with

00:39:25.280 those putting those words together in that regard.

00:39:27.480 It seems Samantha.

00:39:28.240 Well, I wasn't trying to indict her.

00:39:29.120 I'm, I'm more interested in whether she's sending like a code because just the way she

00:39:33.000 talks is, you know, like maybe she's responding to a kidnapper's demand, like say it this way

00:39:38.280 or I don't know.

00:39:39.980 I have no idea.

00:39:40.400 It's just the way she phrases things sounds odd to me, but it could be the poet thing.

00:39:43.800 And Jonathan, let me ask you about the police activity back at the house yesterday, because

00:39:47.640 that, that took us all by surprise.

00:39:50.540 They, they released the house to the family.

00:39:53.220 The police did on Tuesday.

00:39:54.820 Then here we are on Wednesday and the, and they're, they put the crime scene tape back

00:39:59.680 up around it.

00:40:00.500 They searched the outside, uh, in the neighborhood, like right down the road from where, uh, this

00:40:06.040 house is.

00:40:06.360 And then they did search Nancy Guthrie's house again for another two hours in the garage,

00:40:10.820 backyard a little, and inside the house for the most part.

00:40:13.020 You know, there's been this increasing rush by law enforcement to open up these, uh, scenes

00:40:21.180 in recent years.

00:40:22.440 I don't understand why that's the case.

00:40:24.620 If you don't know that where the person is, um, it could be an abduction or something could

00:40:30.320 have happened.

00:40:30.720 They could have stashed her on the property.

00:40:32.960 Um, I don't understand why they do these things.

00:40:35.260 I mean, there's still blood on the ground when Brian Enton was up there and, uh, and the

00:40:39.780 scene was wide open.

00:40:40.720 And so I, I'm not real sure.

00:40:42.380 I look at, uh, perhaps they got more information about something and they, so they decided to,

00:40:48.340 uh, to lock it down for a few more minutes and then they opened it back up.

00:40:51.460 So I don't know.

00:40:52.640 These are law enforcement tactics that are, were not taught to me.

00:40:56.820 And I don't understand from an evidence response, uh, team going in, uh, what type of, uh,

00:41:03.660 reasoning they have for shutting it down that this sheriff.

00:41:05.600 Yeah.

00:41:05.720 So what you're saying, Jonathan is like, if you were controlling this crime scene, you

00:41:10.260 would have said, no one's going back into that house until we have Nancy Guthrie, or

00:41:15.160 at least until we're much further down on the investigation than we are.

00:41:19.160 Right.

00:41:19.360 Because once they have these letters and they start going down this other path of potential

00:41:23.800 abduction, there may be other clues inside that house that they can gather.

00:41:28.580 And so I just would have, I would have held onto that for a little bit longer if I, but

00:41:33.480 this sheriff has made a couple of, of mistakes.

00:41:35.820 I'm not putting him down, but you know, he said that it was absolutely not an abduction

00:41:39.640 from across the border.

00:41:41.160 Well, he doesn't know that.

00:41:42.120 So you, you can't in law enforcement, you can't get ahead of the narrative because the

00:41:46.320 public, the general public is a force multiplier that should be used.

00:41:49.780 And in this case, when they make comments like that, they lose that forward momentum of

00:41:55.580 potential eyes out there looking for things and saying, Hey, this is a

00:41:58.560 this is, this is interesting.

00:42:00.040 I might know this.

00:42:00.780 One of the thing about, uh, Ms. Guthrie is that I'd like to know if she took any trips

00:42:05.380 recently.

00:42:05.820 Did she go into Mexico?

00:42:07.540 Did she go overseas anywhere where somebody could have befriended her?

00:42:11.260 Has she met anybody in recent years, uh, that, uh, or recent, uh, months even that, um,

00:42:18.000 anybody knows about that she talked about meeting somebody.

00:42:21.040 And lastly, is there anybody in that family?

00:42:24.140 I'm still, you know, as a, as a hard investigator, uh, I don't play the sympathy card.

00:42:29.680 I look at this and I, I still look at people sitting next to her, uh, on the couch.

00:42:34.400 I'm not saying these people, but as an investigator, I'm looking at everyone.

00:42:37.280 And so you have to, the lingo that you're talking about, where was it, was it, uh, told to her

00:42:44.100 to say it that way?

00:42:45.040 Is she a poet from a law enforcement standpoint?

00:42:47.760 I'm going to be looking at that.

00:42:49.200 And if, if she starts going into poetry, I'm going to start asking the question of why are

00:42:53.760 we having to make this so flowery at this point?

00:42:56.520 This is a crisis situation.

00:42:58.320 So as an investigator, uh, I'm going to look at every single person that is anywhere around

00:43:04.560 her, uh, and any signs of oddity from normal behavior, uh, that lead me to, uh, any type

00:43:12.000 of clue that I can, that I can find.

00:43:14.020 Yeah.

00:43:14.540 You get paid in law enforcement to be suspicious of everyone.

00:43:17.980 So that's, I mean, literally your job, Jim on that front.

00:43:21.260 Uh, of course we had Ashley Banfield's reporting, not matched by anybody since that one senior

00:43:27.120 law enforcement source who she said is impeccable, told her that Annie's husband, Tomas may be

00:43:34.920 the prime suspect.

00:43:36.200 The sheriff came out very quickly and dumped all over that report saying it's irresponsible.

00:43:40.400 We do not have a suspect.

00:43:41.700 We do not have a person of interest for whatever it's worth.

00:43:44.340 He would say that almost certainly, even if her reporting were true.

00:43:48.320 So we just don't know.

00:43:49.520 But they did change the reporting yesterday per the sheriff on who was the last to see

00:43:56.720 Nancy, Nancy Guthrie.

00:43:58.060 He had originally said that her kids dropped her off back at her house on Saturday night

00:44:03.260 at nine 45 after a church event.

00:44:05.280 And he made a point of telling the New York times and then everybody else ran with it that

00:44:09.520 actually it was Tomas, the husband of Annie Guthrie who dropped her off, which was a change.

00:44:16.640 Seems to me it may have been pointed though with the sheriff.

00:44:19.080 Do we really ever know?

00:44:22.240 Can we back up a little bit, Megan?

00:44:24.080 And I'll respond to that.

00:44:25.440 But yesterday, as we ended my appearance on your show, one of the last things we discussed

00:44:30.180 was they better go back.

00:44:31.820 They better make sure they search the house completely, including all the property.

00:44:35.580 We referred to the John Bonet Ramsey case where the little girl was down in the basement

00:44:39.220 and Megan, about two to three hours later, they're researching the whole property with

00:44:42.960 the crime tapes.

00:44:43.920 Would they listen to your podcast or not?

00:44:45.320 Who knows?

00:44:46.100 But it's very possible that they just said, hey, we have to make sure that Mrs. Guthrie

00:44:51.260 is nowhere there on the property itself.

00:44:54.300 And it could be for other reasons.

00:44:55.620 And also it's interesting with the sister, Annie and Savannah, sort of the abstract versus

00:45:00.240 the pragmatic with the brothers just chipping in a few words at the end there in terms of

00:45:04.180 the poetry part to the more specific with Savannah.

00:45:08.160 Uh, as far as the wording, yeah, now that's very interesting that, uh, Tommaso is the one

00:45:14.460 now confirmed to have dropped off Mrs. Guthrie at the house that night.

00:45:19.320 I think we were under the impression that it was the daughter, Annie, who dropped off the

00:45:23.040 mother.

00:45:23.820 Now it's the son-in-law.

00:45:25.060 Yes.

00:45:25.460 Now, again, uh, that doesn't put him in the suspect pool.

00:45:29.520 Lots of husbands drop off their mother's in-law, uh, you know, after different functions or

00:45:34.080 events.

00:45:34.760 Uh, but he had reportedly taken her out for dinner, Annie.

00:45:37.400 And he had taken her out for dinner, which of course happens all the time, all around

00:45:41.020 the world.

00:45:41.480 Uh, and, and that's the person it's interesting though, that the sheriff felt it was important

00:45:45.920 to, uh, you know, add that information to the public and let everyone know about that.

00:45:51.900 What exactly?

00:45:52.840 And I heard a big debate yesterday that it's, it's, they knew the family, someone dropped

00:45:57.860 them off and the family told us they dropped them off and the semantic, you know, uh, content,

00:46:02.600 uh, and implications of that only because it's the sheriff who I have no problem.

00:46:07.400 The sheriff apparently has 50 years in law enforcement, but maybe behind the mic is not

00:46:12.720 his strongest suit in a high profile case like that, uh, like this.

00:46:16.980 We saw that quite frankly, in Brown university, a bunch of PhD people also didn't do a very

00:46:21.340 good job, uh, on the, on the dais.

00:46:23.360 The investigators were doing good work.

00:46:24.920 Very true.

00:46:25.380 But those folks, so it gets tricky sometimes.

00:46:27.680 Uh, it's one thing putting a statement out in the case of Saturday night, you know, they

00:46:32.280 did report earlier that the pacemaker stopped communicating with her Apple watch at 2 AM,

00:46:38.800 which really would seem to put the time of abduction or removal of Nancy Guthrie from

00:46:44.220 that home at two, not at nine 45.

00:46:46.760 So it's interesting and it is important who dropped her off, but it really does appear

00:46:51.220 this crime happened at 2 AM.

00:46:52.680 And we actually went back and asked a couple of different cardiologists, what would happen

00:46:58.180 with the pacemaker?

00:46:59.040 Would it still be communicating with any sort of a central database that her cardiologist

00:47:03.520 could be seeing right now and telling the family she's still alive or not?

00:47:07.380 And the answer is no, um, that normally it communicates with a device like an iPhone or an Apple

00:47:14.000 watch and that if the person with, with the pacemaker is removed out of range from that

00:47:20.360 device, then the communication will stop.

00:47:22.440 And it doesn't mean the person has died.

00:47:24.260 It means you're out of range.

00:47:26.160 So unfortunately we don't think there's some secret option for them to keep tabs on whether

00:47:31.640 Nancy's alive or not.

00:47:33.540 Thanks to that pacemaker.

00:47:34.800 It was just a point that had been bothering me all along.

00:47:37.940 And now I think we've gotten to the bottom of it.

00:47:40.280 Go ahead, Jimmy.

00:47:40.660 You were going to say something.

00:47:41.180 No, just adding that those type of connections and interconnectivity with Apple watches and

00:47:46.640 pacemakers can tell a lot, uh, sometimes after a person is recovered, we'll just leave

00:47:52.360 it at that.

00:47:53.140 Uh, but in this case, I'm not sure it has the value for the ongoing investigation, as

00:47:57.000 you just stated.

00:47:58.000 You know, Megan, one thing, one thing is that I think law enforcement needs to start doing

00:48:03.280 this.

00:48:03.460 If we, cause they, this is not a tip, a typical practice is if we know that she was, that

00:48:09.460 that pacemaker, uh, went off at 2am, they need to look at the distance somebody could

00:48:14.380 have traveled from 2am to the time that she was reported missing.

00:48:17.760 And they need to alert law enforcement in that circle so that they can start searching

00:48:22.780 from that point in, because those are finite distances that we know.

00:48:27.220 Instead, everybody rushes to the scene and they search out.

00:48:30.220 If we change these tactics a little bit, I think we might be, uh, running into, uh, people

00:48:35.980 who are doing nefarious things or finding bodies if they've been dumped a little bit

00:48:39.860 easier.

00:48:41.820 Hmm.

00:48:42.020 That's a very good point.

00:48:43.120 Um, and we, we hope that they've done that though.

00:48:46.300 We really, we don't know.

00:48:47.940 It's not typical in law enforcement.

00:48:49.020 There was a different, there was a different take on the, the, the messaging last night from,

00:48:54.200 uh, Andy McCabe, formerly of the FBI deputy director.

00:48:58.100 Um, listen to what he told CNN last night.

00:49:00.400 Sot seven.

00:49:01.520 I feel like this is a fairly strong signal that they do not believe they've had a legitimate

00:49:07.280 ransom demand yet, right?

00:49:09.840 Because what you hear the family saying here is we're ready to talk, reach out to us.

00:49:14.980 We just want to know you have our mother.

00:49:17.100 So, um, that's not something that you would do if you were already in negotiations with someone

00:49:23.120 that you actually thought had the victim.

00:49:25.840 So there is McCabe saying he thinks that, that those initial ransom notes may be nonsense

00:49:35.320 and that this was just a raw plea for whoever the kidnapper is to communicate with them.

00:49:41.640 I thought that was an interesting take.

00:49:43.100 It could be the case.

00:49:44.140 I mean, I'm sorry to say it, but it could also very much be the case that somebody killed

00:49:48.420 Nancy Guthrie in the home and removed the body.

00:49:51.840 Again, we talked about that yesterday, Jim.

00:49:53.760 Jonathan, what do you think of that theory?

00:49:55.900 Yeah.

00:49:56.200 Well, first of all, I don't, Andy McCabe is totally opposite of what I'm feeling, but

00:50:00.120 you know, his investigator, I was still listening to what he has to say, but, uh, I, I think

00:50:04.340 that if that video is out there, it's probably they're looking at that pretty seriously.

00:50:08.280 Uh, but yeah, a lot of these people, uh, that, uh, attack will remove the body, especially

00:50:14.960 if it's a family member or they'll try to dispose of it and, and get rid of it in some

00:50:18.580 way, shape or form, uh, so that, uh, they can destroy any evidence of them being there.

00:50:23.340 And in the case of a lot of these kidnappings, especially the ones that, uh, you see in

00:50:28.160 modern time, like down in Mexico, for instance, um, those people are killed very quickly.

00:50:33.540 And then, but the ransom procedure continues on.

00:50:36.680 Um, and, uh, that's what we typically find nowadays.

00:50:39.240 Hmm, exactly.

00:50:41.880 So that could be, unfortunately, one of the things that law enforcement has to consider.

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00:51:59.460 We just watched an extraordinary press conference from the FBI and local authorities in Tucson,

00:52:08.680 Arizona, in connection with the disappearance of Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie.

00:52:15.380 There have been several new items released by the police and the FBI there that were not

00:52:20.480 out in the public before.

00:52:21.720 Okay, I'm just going to give you a couple off the top of my head and then we're going to

00:52:24.140 go through them and the sound bites with our panel in one second.

00:52:29.080 He's offered more details on the timeline.

00:52:32.060 Okay, so for the first time, we heard that the doorbell camera disconnected at 1.47 a.m.

00:52:40.440 We knew that Nancy would drop back off at her home around 9.45 p.m. on Saturday night.

00:52:44.960 Now they have it down to 9.48 to 9.50 because they saw that the garage door, there's a timer

00:52:51.520 on it, I guess, was opened at 9.48 and it was closed at 9.50.

00:52:57.060 So that, we believe, is when she got back home.

00:52:59.400 Then he told us for the first time at 1.47 a.m., the doorbell camera disconnected.

00:53:06.240 Boom, that's the beginning of the crime.

00:53:08.080 That's obviously what he's trying to tell us.

00:53:09.980 By 12.12 a.m., the doorbell software, though they have no video, he now confirmed, but the

00:53:18.160 software did detect a person on camera.

00:53:20.760 They have a written notification from, we were told that it was a Nest camera by Ashley Banfield,

00:53:25.760 that it was a written notification, person on camera, person at the door, and you'll get

00:53:32.040 that if you have a ring camera or Nest cam.

00:53:34.740 And they don't have video of it because it looks like Nancy Guthrie did not have a subscription

00:53:40.860 to the Nest camera, which is by Google.

00:53:44.200 And in order to get video of any particular moment, you have to have a subscription.

00:53:48.720 Unfortunately, she didn't.

00:53:50.900 And so all we have now, according to the sheriff, is a written record that there was a person

00:53:55.300 at the door at 12.12 a.m., detects person on camera.

00:54:00.140 Now, he did say it could have been an animal.

00:54:01.840 You know, he's not giving complete credibility to the eye of the Nest camera, but we are getting

00:54:07.380 a timeline here, 1.47 a.m., doorbell camera, disconnects, and then 13, 12, let's see, 20,

00:54:16.380 yeah, so 25 minutes later, right, 13 plus 12, yeah, is 25 minutes later, the software detected

00:54:25.520 a person on camera.

00:54:26.920 So it's interesting to ask yourself what was going on in that time.

00:54:31.300 It was 2.28 a.m. that her pacemaker app showed a disconnection.

00:54:37.520 She got far enough away from it that it stopped communicating with her Apple phone, which was

00:54:43.580 left inside the house.

00:54:44.800 So by 12.28 a.m., we're guessing she was out of the house.

00:54:50.760 All right, so that's about a 45-minute period, 43-minute period entirely that this whole thing

00:54:56.840 went down, and the sheriff walked us all through it.

00:55:02.720 He also appeared to confirm that they did tow Annie Guthrie's car.

00:55:08.680 He wasn't as clear as we would like.

00:55:11.220 He got very sort of jumbly with his words and seemed to just be saying, oh, this is a matter

00:55:15.820 of course, yeah, we took a car.

00:55:17.620 Well, the only car we know of is Annie Guthrie's, at least we think we know of, per the Ashley

00:55:23.440 Banfield reporting yesterday, that her source was saying police had towed and impounded Annie's

00:55:29.360 car.

00:55:30.200 He was asked about it.

00:55:31.500 He fudged the answer a little bit.

00:55:32.900 We'll get into it.

00:55:33.500 But that was an interesting thing.

00:55:35.500 He said that they have no one of interest and they do not have, he said, we have no one

00:55:41.260 you would consider a prime suspect.

00:55:43.880 We're just not there.

00:55:45.220 But he's now shifting his on-the-record statements about, that involved Annie Guthrie's husband,

00:55:55.080 Tomas, and I don't know why he's doing that.

00:55:57.900 He went on the record with the New York Times yesterday saying it wasn't Annie Guthrie who

00:56:02.160 dropped her mother back off, which they'd originally reported.

00:56:05.140 It was Tomas.

00:56:06.700 So he made that change himself with the New York Times, picked up everywhere, Fox and Hollywood

00:56:11.400 Reporter, you name it.

00:56:12.180 Now, today he was asked about it and he wiggled again.

00:56:16.600 Today he shifted to, well, let's just say it was family.

00:56:19.340 Well, why are we just saying it was family?

00:56:20.540 Who was it?

00:56:21.560 Why would you be shifting it and making a point of that?

00:56:24.240 So there's all sorts of interesting things.

00:56:26.500 And then the FBI agent got out there.

00:56:28.660 And while they'd been so careful about not disclosing any information about the ransom

00:56:31.940 note, I think we now know virtually everything.

00:56:34.380 We know that it set a deadline at 5 p.m. today by which to send the Bitcoin.

00:56:38.840 We know that it named two things.

00:56:43.040 We heard TMZ earlier today say there were things in there that turned out to be true

00:56:46.700 that the writer of the ransom note referenced.

00:56:50.300 And we believe they were actual true references to the crime scene.

00:56:54.040 And therefore, we TMZ are taking it seriously.

00:56:57.360 And we believe that law enforcement is.

00:56:59.280 Well, the FBI agent got up there and told us what they were.

00:57:02.380 So we'll play that for you in just a second.

00:57:04.900 Anyway, we learned a lot.

00:57:05.920 We're going to go through it with Jonathan Gilliam.

00:57:08.120 He's formerly of the FBI himself.

00:57:09.840 Also joining me is Chad Ayers.

00:57:11.080 He's former SWAT team leader.

00:57:12.720 And Jim Fitzgerald is back with me now, former FBI himself and profiler.

00:57:17.260 Guys, thank you for being here.

00:57:18.980 All right.

00:57:19.200 Let's just go down the line on what you thought was most interesting, that presser.

00:57:22.360 Chad, let me start with you because we haven't heard from you yet today.

00:57:24.980 What was your biggest takeaway?

00:57:27.080 Honestly, it's that 5 p.m. deadline that we saw.

00:57:30.700 And Megan, I don't know if you picked up on it.

00:57:33.300 It's almost like the agent went to the rack back there.

00:57:36.940 And it's almost like that rack had a copy of that ransom note in his because they kept going back and looking at it.

00:57:42.900 So whether those are just notes that he's made or did he actually have the ransom note on his person, you know, obviously, or a copy of it.

00:57:49.940 Who knows?

00:57:50.440 But the whole idea that is so confusing to me is why, and again, the other panelists hopefully can, you know, give their expertise, but why the wishy-washiness back and forth?

00:58:02.900 That's the frustrating part.

00:58:04.240 Listen, I get it.

00:58:05.580 We live in a time where viewers, the American people, are heavily invested in this case.

00:58:10.780 It almost takes me back to the Kohlberger case and the frustrations that the American people had and, you know, viewers had of what's going on.

00:58:17.560 Why are we not getting the answers that we want?

00:58:19.400 But there was, we do know that Idaho and that agency had a lot going on behind the scenes.

00:58:25.440 So could that be happening?

00:58:26.800 Yes.

00:58:27.060 But I don't know.

00:58:27.580 I feel like from the presser now, sure, we did get a great deal of information on that timeline.

00:58:34.240 But, you know, is there more to it?

00:58:37.140 And they are just, for the integrity of the investigation, keeping that tight-lipped?

00:58:40.560 I don't know.

00:58:43.160 Now we're on the subject of what was in the ransom note.

00:58:46.200 Let me play for you in part that soundbite.

00:58:48.020 Here's the FBI special agent in charge speaking to what appears to have been in there that may have lended credibility to it or maybe not.

00:58:56.220 Sot 103.

00:58:57.540 Why this one?

00:58:58.860 Because this was the ransom that came in and it had facts associated with a deadline, with a monetary value they were asking for.

00:59:05.960 What were some of those facts, if you can, because there's been a lot of speculation, as you know, if you can separate records straight.

00:59:12.920 Yeah, the ransom itself, one talked about an Apple Watch and one talked about a floodlight.

00:59:18.540 We're not going to go into specifics.

00:59:20.240 It's very important that we keep this investigation moving forward and we don't want to put more facts out there that others then can use to try to profit from this.

00:59:30.660 One talked about an Apple Watch, one talked about a floodlight.

00:59:35.380 But he also said later, Jonathan, that because one of the reporters, I think it was Brian Enten, who was on this show, we were just talking about this issue, raised the issue of, well, when do we think the ransom note was written?

00:59:49.060 Because we all heard that there was an Apple Watch at this scene very early on in this case.

00:59:55.980 And the agent acknowledged that and even acknowledged whatever's in there about a floodlight, he said, could have been seen from the road.

01:00:04.560 So what may have sounded out, started out sounding very credible, may not be at all.

01:00:10.680 Anyway, what was your biggest takeaway today?

01:00:12.700 Well, that's right.

01:00:13.240 And that was the questions that I was having, were those things said, were they released in a press conference?

01:00:20.040 And so it kind of degrades the reliability of that information.

01:00:25.240 I was wondering if she had an iWatch.

01:00:26.860 A lot of people have an iPhone, have an iWatch, and could be synced.

01:00:30.780 Both of those things could be synced to her pacemaker.

01:00:33.300 But I did take some notes, Megan, if I can go through those real quick, about things that I found that were very interesting and very telling.

01:00:39.840 One is that the FBI did not rule out Bitcoin, right?

01:00:43.120 So they didn't say that Bitcoin was not an issue.

01:00:46.520 So if that's the case, I'd like to know if any of the relatives have any issue with Bitcoin, where they're invested heavily in Bitcoin or they are experts.

01:00:54.940 There's a lot of people that consider themselves experts in Bitcoin.

01:00:57.980 I'd also like to know, at 1.47, it says the camera went offline.

01:01:03.340 But then it says at 2.12, the software detected a person on camera.

01:01:07.440 So I'm kind of confused on that.

01:01:10.080 Were there two cameras?

01:01:11.300 Because we've been told there were two cameras.

01:01:13.300 What camera did they see somebody online?

01:01:17.180 Did the software detect somebody?

01:01:19.500 Because the camera going offline, perhaps if there was no movement around that area that the camera went offline,

01:01:27.640 and then when somebody moved in front of it, it came back online.

01:01:30.780 They're not clear about that.

01:01:32.020 So I would like some clarification.

01:01:33.800 That's a good point.

01:01:34.880 That's a very good point.

01:01:35.980 I hadn't put that together.

01:01:37.300 If the doorbell camera was disconnected at 1.47 a.m., then how was the software detecting a person on camera at 2.12?

01:01:47.280 Right.

01:01:47.640 So that, to me, I would like to know it because if somebody saw somebody coming from the front or if they were coming from the back,

01:01:56.020 if they came from the back, for instance, that tells me they're sneaking in.

01:01:59.660 If they came from the front, they could still be sneaking in, but it might be the fact that they just walked in the front.

01:02:04.900 So that's, see, these are details that I really want to know in these press conferences that I don't think go above and beyond giving away secrets or information.

01:02:16.520 There's a couple other things.

01:02:19.120 The, I want to know what family member checked on her.

01:02:23.580 So we know who dropped her off now.

01:02:25.300 Who made the call?

01:02:26.420 Because we've, we've seen.

01:02:29.500 On Sunday morning.

01:02:30.240 On Sunday morning.

01:02:31.020 Because we've seen in the past where, I don't know if you know this statistic, but 20% of the people who call in and report a murder are the people who actually did the murder.

01:02:39.960 So.

01:02:40.860 What?

01:02:41.300 Yes.

01:02:41.620 And so I would like to know who called in because it's often that it could be the person that had something to do with this.

01:02:52.580 Because, as you said earlier in the show, she doesn't attend church.

01:02:56.520 She attends church virtually.

01:02:58.500 So this whole.

01:02:59.540 We think.

01:03:00.460 That's, that's based on one report from the Daily Mail.

01:03:02.980 It's not, not yet totally confirmed by all of us.

01:03:04.680 So where did the concern come from?

01:03:07.900 Did somebody call her earlier?

01:03:09.120 Had they not heard from her?

01:03:10.560 And so where did this, this, this come up?

01:03:12.360 That, that was another thing.

01:03:13.740 Um, I would like to know if anybody in the family is under a financial burden.

01:03:18.960 Um, I'd like to know, uh, who benefits from her if she dies.

01:03:23.160 Of course, these are things that are common questions.

01:03:25.580 Uh, and was there any landscaping going on in and around that house?

01:03:30.120 That's how Elizabeth Smart got, uh, targeted was an individual was doing the landscaping and then, uh, came in through a window that was left open.

01:03:38.620 Um, there was no robbery that we know of.

01:03:41.660 So that tells me that this was either a personal issue with getting rid of her for a benefit or because of anger, or it was for a kidnapping and a ransom.

01:03:52.680 But the ransom thing is, it just doesn't happen that often anymore.

01:03:57.780 So, um, that would be, that's a whole nother game to kidnap somebody for a ransom.

01:04:04.800 That is a huge game and that is something that gets very technical very quick and you have to be a very smart criminal to carry that out.

01:04:12.840 But what we typically see is that people who commit a crime, such as a killing or a kidnapping or a robbery, um, will use a ruse, uh, such as, um, some type of a, uh, a ransom.

01:04:28.440 And so that's why I want to know who in that family or who that they know may know about Bitcoin because either they're the ones going to benefit from it or they're the ones using it for a ruse.

01:04:38.820 So these are questions that I had that came through all this stuff.

01:04:42.400 TMZ did verify that the Bitcoin account that was mentioned in the ransom notes is a legit account, but they're so hard to trace.

01:04:49.240 You were going to say something, Chad.

01:04:50.280 Yeah, I did now was I under the impression that she was, and do we know the distance between their residence and the, and where she went to, to her daughter's residence?

01:05:01.360 Cause it was 10 minutes, according to Brian Enten.

01:05:04.280 Okay.

01:05:04.600 And didn't they mention that there was an Uber driver took her there, but then Uber driver took her to the daughter's and son-in-law's house for the, for dinner.

01:05:14.000 And then we were told by this sheriff in the New York times yesterday, the son-in-law brought her home.

01:05:21.440 And now today he wouldn't go that far today.

01:05:25.340 He was specifically asked who, who brought her home and he wouldn't say it.

01:05:31.760 It's, uh, I don't know why we'll, we'll play it in a second.

01:05:33.920 We're still getting all of our sound bites, uh, together.

01:05:36.320 He also was asked, as I mentioned, are you specifically looking into the son-in-law?

01:05:40.420 And here's what he said.

01:05:41.180 Sat 107.

01:05:44.000 Are you actively investigating the, the son-in-law in this case?

01:05:48.360 I know there were reports earlier this week and you refuted that.

01:05:50.880 You said you haven't eliminated everybody.

01:05:53.060 Have you eliminated him or come close to it?

01:05:55.120 Or are you actually looking at him?

01:05:56.260 We're actively looking at everybody we come across in this case.

01:06:00.440 Everybody.

01:06:01.360 Uh, it, it, it, we would be irresponsible if we didn't talk to everybody.

01:06:07.480 The, the Uber driver, the, uh, the gardener, the pool person, whoever.

01:06:14.900 Okay.

01:06:15.460 So he didn't, I'm going to bring Jim in in a second, but Chad, he did not, he didn't rule

01:06:20.140 him out.

01:06:21.160 He said, we're talking to everybody.

01:06:23.400 Yeah.

01:06:23.800 But Megan, what did you make of that?

01:06:25.000 Well, here's my, here's the thing.

01:06:26.580 He's also said, we believe either him or the FBI agent says, we believe she's still alive.

01:06:31.700 And if he is our prime suspect and he's not acting alone, if we believe he's still, she's

01:06:37.220 still alive, well, where is she?

01:06:39.020 And who, who's got custody of her?

01:06:41.360 You know, that's that, if that's the case and you, and you're, and you're telling the

01:06:45.040 American people, we believe she is still alive, but we know where the son-in-law is.

01:06:50.480 Well, then, then they're, they're not acting alone, Megan.

01:06:55.640 Well, I mean, I see what you're saying.

01:06:58.180 If she's, well, I mean, he could have like a worst case scenario, if, if it's somebody

01:07:01.800 close to the family or in the family, they could have hidden her someplace and be keeping

01:07:06.820 her in some sort of a, you know, prison, a makeshift prison, which would free him up.

01:07:12.220 But the cops are all over him right now.

01:07:14.160 There's no, you're right.

01:07:15.000 I mean, like if he did this, they're all over him.

01:07:17.980 The media is all over him.

01:07:19.360 There's no like going and checking on your kidnapped charge.

01:07:23.080 If, if he's taking care of her at all in order to get proof of life, this is just a completely

01:07:27.280 imagined scenario.

01:07:28.640 He would need, he would need some help.

01:07:32.060 Here is, um, here is a question to the sheriff about proof of life and whether Nancy's alive.

01:07:37.660 Here's Sot 102.

01:07:39.380 Sheriff over here.

01:07:40.460 Has there been any proof of life and has there been any sign of life?

01:07:48.820 I'm going to anything to deal with the ransom notes and that I would defer to the FBI, but

01:07:55.000 no, to my knowledge, we're still looking for Nancy.

01:08:00.300 Okay.

01:08:01.100 So Jim, your thoughts on what we witnessed today?

01:08:05.300 Yeah.

01:08:05.940 Uh, not only the profiler, but the forensic linguist and he would really like to see that

01:08:09.480 letter.

01:08:09.820 I think there may be so many clues in that.

01:08:11.780 I don't know if it's five sentences or, or 15 or more.

01:08:16.180 Uh, there's definitely some information in there that I think someone who knows language

01:08:20.460 could determine a lot from it.

01:08:22.320 I also find it odd that, uh, there are two deadlines listed like five o'clock today, but

01:08:29.260 then we really mean it by Monday afternoon, usually kidnap ransom.

01:08:33.760 Again, there aren't that many of these that are legitimate.

01:08:35.320 They are very demonstrative and deliberate.

01:08:38.320 And here's our demands.

01:08:39.560 You will not violate it.

01:08:40.920 There can be, you know, give and take room to go back and forth at the amount, the timeframe,

01:08:45.140 whatever.

01:08:45.580 But usually they want to set up, they're in control.

01:08:48.020 Here's exactly what we want and when we want it.

01:08:51.080 Um, interestingly, Megan, um, about 20 years ago, still in the FBI, I developed an acronym

01:08:56.260 called POMIC, uh, and it's, uh, it stands for a lot of syllables here, post-offense manipulation

01:09:03.020 of investigation communication and see why I made it an acronym.

01:09:07.240 And what that basically is when a crime is committed, uh, to cover it up, to make it stage,

01:09:12.900 look like it's going somewhere else.

01:09:14.400 People will write a letter, send it to the police, uh, lawyers, the media, uh, leave it

01:09:19.700 somewhere to be found.

01:09:20.540 And that is designed to misdirect the investigation.

01:09:24.480 So I'm not ruling out that this is a legitimate kidnapping, ransom communication.

01:09:29.660 It may be, but it also could be either a BS, someone playing games with it, uh, just for

01:09:35.580 fun, kicks and giggles, or, uh, or, or somebody else who was involved in the abduction.

01:09:41.300 And, and, and Megan, the first couple minutes we spoke, we, we, we delineated this abduction

01:09:46.980 was for one of two reasons, for profit or for revenge.

01:09:50.540 And if it is a revenge thing and they decide, Hey, people are getting close.

01:09:53.960 Let me put this bogus thing out to TMZ and some other news station and make it look like

01:09:58.660 it's a real, uh, kidnapping when it may not be.

01:10:01.260 But nonetheless, having said that the FBI has to follow through and, and, and go every,

01:10:05.580 uh, method they can to determine the providence of that communication and who wrote it.

01:10:11.620 So there, there was an interesting comment by TMZ where they said, they basically said that

01:10:18.660 the letters told us, we don't want to talk.

01:10:21.960 Just give us our money.

01:10:23.320 Listen here.

01:10:23.920 This is today from TMZ, Sat 116.

01:10:27.480 So the final thing about the letter, and again, we're not going to get into all the details.

01:10:32.280 Um, but when the family is reaching out to say, we're ready to talk, um, this letter suggests,

01:10:40.080 uh, no talk, um, that, that was made clear right at the beginning.

01:10:47.060 Yeah.

01:10:47.680 And so I think that the family sitting down and speaking that way that, um, they are trying

01:10:54.560 to change the minds of the abductors, um, and hoping that they actually will one provide

01:11:01.420 that, that proof of life.

01:11:02.780 Um, but also clearly there was an attempt to humanize, not just Nancy, but also themselves

01:11:10.980 to say, look, we desperately want our mother back.

01:11:15.440 All right.

01:11:15.980 So hold on to that in your head and listen to Sat 108 from the FBI.

01:11:20.920 There's the ransom note that you're working to establish any communication protocols.

01:11:25.700 Uh, no, it does not.

01:11:31.800 And that is what I think is important that if someone has Nancy and is demanding the ransom,

01:11:38.020 that there is communication with the family.

01:11:41.300 Um, we talked about, there is, has been no proof of life, um, and there was no other demands

01:11:47.180 within that letter.

01:11:48.000 So, um, they're still waiting for communication.

01:11:53.240 So there it is, Jim.

01:11:54.500 Um, they're the, if this is the actual hostage taker, if, if she's being held hostage and

01:12:00.660 the ransom note is from her kidnapper, that person doesn't want to talk.

01:12:06.360 He just wants his Bitcoin.

01:12:08.680 But I'll play both sides of the coin here, uh, Megan, if it's also someone covering up

01:12:13.120 their revenge abduction of this person, they don't want to talk either because, uh, it's

01:12:18.300 a better way to identify them and pick up some kind of a motive.

01:12:21.140 So very convenient to put in the letter, the communication.

01:12:23.600 I don't want to talk again.

01:12:25.380 It can argue in both directions or neither direction.

01:12:28.660 Uh, but nonetheless, that's not uncommon, uh, for people to write again.

01:12:32.260 These letters are very rare.

01:12:33.820 These communications did not by the Lindbergh kidnapping had about a half a dozen different

01:12:37.580 communications.

01:12:38.360 But again, there was no social media back then.

01:12:40.380 Even phone telephones were early in the early days.

01:12:42.760 So now it's a little bit different.

01:12:44.880 And, uh, we'll, we'll see if some other communication comes in.

01:12:47.900 If they want the money, they put a lot of effort into this case.

01:12:51.000 This is a high risk crime.

01:12:52.820 If they want the money, they're not going to harm Mrs. Guthrie and they're going to somehow

01:12:56.940 further communicate with the family.

01:12:58.820 Otherwise, this is all for naught, all risk with no gain.

01:13:01.960 If in fact, uh, they don't get the money out of this.

01:13:04.240 So they may want to consider talking to, uh, to the family.

01:13:06.920 Um, did you, I know you got to leave shortly, Jim, do you, did you take anything away from

01:13:14.260 that presser?

01:13:15.460 Like they, they've got a suspect or a person of interest and they're just not telling us

01:13:20.160 or they're further, much further along in this investigation and they're just not telling

01:13:23.420 us.

01:13:23.960 Well, uh, and I'll speak for Chad here.

01:13:25.880 We know there's stuff they're not telling us, uh, no ends if or buts.

01:13:29.020 And I don't blame them for that.

01:13:30.340 I respect them for that.

01:13:31.740 Uh, and we're just, we're just working off the, the, the, the, the crumbs that they're putting

01:13:35.900 out there and what we know from our own experience.

01:13:38.720 Um, I think we can say this pretty, uh, definitively at this point, Megan, and I may just leave you

01:13:43.740 with this.

01:13:44.520 Um, whoever took Mrs. Guthrie was inside that home or is associated with someone very close

01:13:51.780 to that home who was inside that home.

01:13:53.780 That's why they knew, uh, uh, there was no subscription service on their, on their camera

01:13:59.020 system.

01:13:59.600 Uh, smashing it is one thing that keeps any subsequent, uh, images coming up perhaps.

01:14:04.840 But, uh, and maybe just done out of habit, but if they knew there was no subscription

01:14:08.820 service, just walking up to the door, even with a mask on, whatever, it could be risky

01:14:13.360 in that regard.

01:14:14.320 So I think this all goes back to, they have, the police have a list of all the people, some

01:14:21.340 one of the, one of those people were one of those people's associates were somehow involved

01:14:25.780 in this crime.

01:14:27.020 Easier said than done.

01:14:28.200 The proverbial needle in a haystack.

01:14:29.940 Uh, and you need probable cause to take things to a next step, search warrants and all, but,

01:14:34.840 uh, they, they probably have a pretty viable suspect pool.

01:14:37.840 It's just narrowing it all down, maybe crossing, uh, country lines, international lines with

01:14:42.940 Mexico, which makes it of course more difficult in that regard.

01:14:45.780 But, uh, whether it's a real abduction or it is a real abduction, whether it's for profit

01:14:50.220 or for some kind of revenge motive, uh, someone knows, uh, who did this, or at least knows,

01:14:57.040 uh, or that person who was in the house knows someone who did this.

01:15:00.600 And that's where the police have to really focus.

01:15:02.400 And it could be hundreds of people.

01:15:04.080 Hmm.

01:15:05.280 My goodness, Jim Fitzgerald.

01:15:07.260 Thank you.

01:15:07.620 We'll talk to you tomorrow.

01:15:08.280 I'm sure.

01:15:08.880 We appreciate it.

01:15:09.660 You're welcome.

01:15:10.080 Um, Chad, the other, the other, I mean, we, you know, Jim is saying if somebody kidnapped

01:15:16.080 her, it's for hostage, it's, it's for money or it's for revenge.

01:15:21.220 Like they hated Savannah and wanted to punish her, or they hated Annie or Cameron, the brother's

01:15:27.060 sister, or they hated Nancy Guthrie for some reason, right?

01:15:29.760 Like the other possibility is that they killed Nancy Guthrie and then they just decided to

01:15:37.760 get rid of the body.

01:15:39.140 Like they just thought it would be easier to not have a body, to just let people wonder,

01:15:45.420 you know, maybe there was a panic thing.

01:15:47.400 Like, Oh my God, I got, got to get rid of the evidence.

01:15:49.580 You know, maybe the person left DNA on Nancy's body, like with a strangulation or something

01:15:55.520 like possible touch DNA.

01:15:57.100 I'm just thinking about the possible scenarios and then felt, Oh my God, I've got to get rid

01:16:02.140 of the evidence here.

01:16:03.520 And then just allowed it to play out as a kidnapping and possibly was behind that ransom note and

01:16:08.800 or possibly wasn't.

01:16:09.980 There could definitely be people taking advantage of this situation.

01:16:12.520 See if they can't get Savannah Guthrie to wire them a few million bucks in Bitcoin.

01:16:18.480 There's nothing clear about this.

01:16:20.520 And, you know, the law enforcement community, even here in the upstate of South Carolina,

01:16:24.800 you know, we've talked about this.

01:16:26.480 We've got group chats going on of everyone's opinion and everyone is under the same impression.

01:16:31.220 We just don't know anything could be out there.

01:16:34.160 But Megan, listen, I, what I appreciate about you, you, you're one that always shoots people

01:16:38.460 straight, you don't hold back.

01:16:40.180 And I think honestly, I mean, it's really hard for me coming from a law enforcement background

01:16:46.820 and someone who has worked homicides, who is part of two high risk hostage rescues, hostage

01:16:54.900 situation, or I'm sorry, kidnappings.

01:16:57.740 Like Jim said, they're far viewed between this isn't Hollywood.

01:17:00.540 We don't get these types of calls and, and we don't get these types of cases all the time.

01:17:04.600 Very rarely did this happen in the country.

01:17:08.660 I think if I'm being real, I, I don't think Nancy Guthrie is still alive.

01:17:15.160 I don't either.

01:17:16.900 And it breaks and, and to hear, and I, and again, I, I don't know about the brother.

01:17:21.640 I think it's odd again, back to the Uber there.

01:17:24.100 Why didn't she just Uber back?

01:17:25.840 You know, was he driving her, you know, back just to kind of case it one more time to see

01:17:31.080 if there's any cars parked on the street.

01:17:32.900 I don't know.

01:17:33.440 These are all questions that I have.

01:17:35.960 Um, but what I do know is you saw at least, and again, I, I'm not a judgment.

01:17:42.140 I'm not a behavioral analysis, but what we did see last night, Megan was a broken family.

01:17:47.880 All right.

01:17:48.760 Whether or not the one sister was truly broken.

01:17:51.780 We, we, we don't know.

01:17:52.680 I don't, I don't want to put words, but what we did see is this family that is just broken

01:17:57.440 and they want answers.

01:17:59.180 And personally though, you know, my frustration, I am so glad that the sheriff has, has, and

01:18:04.200 that president Trump and Kash Patel are putting these resources there because personally,

01:18:08.200 I feel like that sheriff is in over his head just a little bit.

01:18:10.940 Um, yeah, yeah, Chad, I totally agree.

01:18:15.680 I'm so sad to believe it, but I don't believe she's still with us.

01:18:18.840 I just, I, I agree with everything you said.

01:18:21.040 I, I think that the kidnapping for ransom, it's, it sounds very Hollywood.

01:18:26.380 It's, I don't remember it happening, anything close to this scale or anything, uh, in, in

01:18:31.860 my lifetime, you know, um, Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped and miraculously was found, but

01:18:38.780 I mean, you can name far and few between and, and kind of like, yeah, like the number of times

01:18:44.560 that's happened.

01:18:45.560 However, murders, especially a family members.

01:18:49.600 Again, I, I do not, I'm not saying it's the brother-in-law.

01:18:52.300 I don't know who it was, but it could be an extended family.

01:18:54.940 It could be somebody else could be, could be a worker in the house.

01:18:57.300 She pissed off or didn't pay on time or just crossed in the wrong way, even though she

01:19:01.420 sounds like she was an absolutely lovely woman is ideally we're talking present tense.

01:19:06.200 Um, murders happen all the time, unlike kidnappings for money all the time.

01:19:11.820 And, and, and I can absolutely see how in today's day and age, somebody would, would then

01:19:19.580 hide the body because like this person definitely didn't want to get caught.

01:19:23.500 They, they broke the ring cameras.

01:19:26.320 We think before the murder was committed, right?

01:19:29.780 I mean, I guess we don't know that for sure, right?

01:19:31.600 Because what we do know on the timeline is one 47 doorbell camera disconnects two 12 software

01:19:40.160 detects person on camera.

01:19:41.920 Uh, so yeah, it's, it is confusing.

01:19:44.500 How could the, how could the disconnection happen before?

01:19:47.060 Maybe we have those two time, are those two times juxtaposed or something?

01:19:51.120 Do I have my notes wrong?

01:19:52.660 I wrote it down from the screen.

01:19:54.240 Yeah, I have it here too.

01:19:57.460 One 47 AM doorbell cam disconnects two 12 software detects a person on camera.

01:20:02.380 How is that possible?

01:20:03.700 Well, in any event, the point is we, we have every reason to believe that the crime happened

01:20:07.860 right around 2 AM and that the person actively took steps to cover it up.

01:20:12.980 So it does make it seem like what whoever did it didn't just like panic.

01:20:19.980 Like they, they were like, I've got to do some things to sort of cover up my crime and

01:20:24.160 make sure my story looks clean.

01:20:25.840 So one thing I do want to bring up that I was talking to a crime scene investigator and

01:20:31.580 they were analyzing the blood droplets that were seen on the front porch.

01:20:36.080 And this is what they said.

01:20:37.820 They said, um, they sent a picture.

01:20:40.720 They said, Chad, listen, if anything else, um, what I can see from this photo is the blood

01:20:46.480 spatter tells me she was up and walking when it fell.

01:20:50.840 It hits at a 90 degree angle or close, which means the blood was falling straight down,

01:20:56.960 uh, which usually you see when someone has blood dripping off of them while they are

01:21:01.840 walking.

01:21:03.520 Hmm.

01:21:04.280 Well, that's kind of encouraging, right?

01:21:07.880 I mean, exactly.

01:21:08.420 And listen with the blood things, we also see elderly people, right?

01:21:11.820 Their skin tears very easily.

01:21:13.500 It's very, you know, easy for them to get a bump or bruise or, or, you know, was there an

01:21:18.040 actual struggle inside the house?

01:21:20.680 Um, I don't know, but again, this is a crime scene person that, that told me that.

01:21:25.220 Um, so maybe she did walk out on her own.

01:21:28.420 Look, Megan, you and I are both people of faith and, and we are, I'm not ceasing to stop

01:21:33.140 praying until we come to a conclusion on this.

01:21:36.740 Mm-hmm.

01:21:38.160 The, um, I want to play some of these other sound bites.

01:21:42.820 Okay.

01:21:42.940 Cause there's other sort of like nuggets in here that are kind of interesting to me.

01:21:46.640 We had Ashley report yesterday that her source told her the, the net, she said they were

01:21:54.060 nest cameras and that they were both smashed.

01:21:56.880 She said they were smashed and that then law enforcement, we believe removed them.

01:22:02.720 Um, the sheriff seemed to deny that here in SOT 101.

01:22:07.460 Uh, the doorbell camera, um, it, it, it was removed.

01:22:11.780 We know that, but we're not confirming that any cameras were smashed or destroyed around

01:22:17.280 the house.

01:22:18.260 I don't know where that came from, but that's something we're not confirming.

01:22:22.080 Um, so we're not confirming, um, why wouldn't he confirm a smashed camera?

01:22:29.860 I have absolutely no idea.

01:22:31.580 I mean, that doesn't jeopardize the integrity of the investigation at all.

01:22:35.240 Um, unless, you know.

01:22:37.700 I mean, he's, he's giving us the timeline earlier of doorbell camera disconnects.

01:22:44.300 So it's like, how did he, did, did they have like a bomb technician in there cutting the

01:22:48.680 red wire, but not the green one?

01:22:50.300 It's like, obviously somebody did something to it.

01:22:52.860 So what's that about?

01:22:53.860 Yeah, that's what I can't figure out.

01:22:55.100 I do find it interesting.

01:22:57.300 And, and I liked that either Jonathan or Jim mentioned was the fact that she didn't have

01:23:02.860 a subscription, right?

01:23:04.860 Very few people would know that only close personal.

01:23:09.480 And I don't even think workers, because at first, when I first started diving into this

01:23:13.540 case, first thing that comes to mind is, uh, home healthcare workers, um, people that

01:23:20.040 are in the house a lot of times that see maybe jewelry or anything around there.

01:23:24.880 That's that, that comes to mind first, but with the subscription aspect, it gives just

01:23:30.080 another layer of, um, someone who probably knew.

01:23:35.340 And again, but smash versus unsmash.

01:23:38.160 I have no idea.

01:23:39.480 Okay.

01:23:41.880 And what about, um, let me play the soundbite about the car.

01:23:45.860 Cause we're back on Ashley's reporting where she said her law enforcement source told her

01:23:49.640 that Annie Guthrie's car had been towed and impounded, whatever that means, you know, just

01:23:55.300 like kept at the lot, not returned to her.

01:23:57.260 Brian Enten couldn't confirm that.

01:23:58.920 He said he wasn't sure, um, having like, he could see one car at Annie Guthrie's residence,

01:24:04.620 but that didn't mean that the other car wasn't inside the garage.

01:24:07.420 And the issue of a car being towed away did come up today, not as clearly as we would

01:24:12.480 like, but here's how it went down.

01:24:15.420 The car, uh, the, the, the car that was at the home, uh, it's just standard investigative

01:24:22.300 practices.

01:24:22.860 It's part of the search warrant scene court orders.

01:24:25.460 We, we pull it out of there and do our scene processing with the vehicle.

01:24:30.560 Okay.

01:24:33.520 I don't do, Deb, do we know what the question was leading into that?

01:24:37.260 Because like, that's, did somebody say, did they tow the car?

01:24:45.500 Yeah, that's right.

01:24:46.700 That's right.

01:24:47.080 My, my producer Lawrence reminded me, he, he, he just threw that out there, Chad.

01:24:50.900 It wasn't in response to a question.

01:24:52.280 It was like, he was just clarifying a couple of things and just says the car.

01:24:56.580 Okay.

01:24:57.620 Whose car?

01:24:58.520 Where?

01:24:59.580 Well, let's think about what was the, uh, key piece about the evidence in the Alec Murdoch

01:25:05.520 case, the computer in the car.

01:25:08.640 Right.

01:25:09.160 So if the family is saying, uh, we took her home at 9 48 PM, I, uh, watched her walk inside

01:25:17.200 of nine 50.

01:25:17.860 She put the, um, uh, door or garage door down at that point, the vehicle, unless they're

01:25:24.760 driving a 1950 vehicle, these, these, they're going to be able to pull the data.

01:25:29.640 Did that car leave the house again later on in the evening?

01:25:33.480 Um, and the full processing of the vehicle as well, but I'm telling you the day and age

01:25:39.040 of driving your vehicle and committing a crime that's over with.

01:25:41.660 So could that be it?

01:25:43.020 Are they searching for DNA?

01:25:44.580 But again, with the DNA aspect, I feel like with the FBI's crime lab, um, since they're

01:25:49.480 already getting pieces of DNA back, if they're sending off samples or, you know, pulling up

01:25:53.980 carpet or maps in the car, that should be back by now.

01:25:58.520 Yeah, they would, they, they would possibly know.

01:26:00.540 And the other thing is in, in defense of the brother-in-law, I don't mean to dump on the

01:26:04.740 brother-in-law because it's just one report and unconfirmed.

01:26:07.460 I keep Savannah's brother-in-law, Nancy's son-in-law.

01:26:11.260 Um, but in, in his defense, they almost certainly would have said to him on Sunday, maybe Monday

01:26:17.500 at the latest, let me see your cell phone.

01:26:20.400 Like, let me have it.

01:26:21.680 And I'm sure he would have turned it over.

01:26:23.540 Even if he had done something, it would have been so, you know, make whatever.

01:26:28.460 It would have made him look guilty to say no, would have been so incriminating to say no.

01:26:31.760 And so by now they would have run that whole thing.

01:26:34.800 Your phone, they know when you put it down to go to sleep.

01:26:38.200 They know when it was at rest.

01:26:39.860 They know when it was upright, like on you and you're walking around with it.

01:26:42.560 They know everything that Alex Murdoch case showed us that.

01:26:46.280 Like they can, they could tell when he, they could tell how fast he was walking around his

01:26:51.720 kitchen.

01:26:52.240 Like if this guy got up in the middle of the night and went over to his mother-in-law's

01:26:58.560 house, if he took his phone and maybe he was smart enough not to do that, if this is, if

01:27:03.520 he was involved, they would know.

01:27:05.600 Now, if he left his phone sitting on his bedside table and never touched it, it's more difficult.

01:27:11.660 But if he took the family car over there, you're exactly right.

01:27:14.780 It's like taking your phone with you.

01:27:16.480 Cause that thing is recording a bunch of data too.

01:27:19.280 Yeah, 100%.

01:27:20.360 So again, there's, there's no getting past that.

01:27:22.820 Also, I'm sure when we talk about diving into forensic evidence, it does make it hard to

01:27:28.660 believe.

01:27:29.440 And, and, and personally, as an investigator, I would take that phone, I would dump it.

01:27:35.000 I'm going to give that phone back and probably wait a few days.

01:27:40.000 And then I'm going to take that phone and ask and get a search warrant and ask for it again.

01:27:44.300 What is this?

01:27:45.480 You know, and again, I know we keep going back to the brother, the son-in-law just because

01:27:49.520 that's, you know, seems to be a person that's been mentioned several times.

01:27:53.780 What is that person looking at in the following days afterwards?

01:27:57.820 What are they researching on Google then?

01:28:01.220 It's true.

01:28:01.900 They do that all the time.

01:28:04.100 It's amazing.

01:28:04.900 Like if you listen to Dateline, uh, you know, that so often when a crime is committed, whoever

01:28:10.960 is the perpetrator will go online on their phone thinking it's fine to Google.

01:28:15.220 How do I cover up murder?

01:28:16.960 You know, I mean, it's crazy what people will do, but you see it over and over.

01:28:20.120 Well, do we know who actually went into, so it says 1156 family checks on Nancy.

01:28:26.020 All right.

01:28:27.380 Did they go?

01:28:28.160 That's a new, that's a new time.

01:28:30.580 By the way, we were told before that the family got a call like around 1110 and that

01:28:37.140 they went right over to check her house for her.

01:28:39.220 And the sheriff even said it as presser the other day, excuse me.

01:28:43.460 Oh, you know, it took them a while.

01:28:44.460 They didn't call us right away because they're looking for her.

01:28:48.800 And I mean, to me, that made sense.

01:28:50.500 You, before you call the police, you're like, you're checking everywhere.

01:28:53.180 Like, did she trip and fall in the backyard?

01:28:55.000 Did she go for a walk or something?

01:28:56.600 And like, I would check everywhere before I involved police.

01:28:58.880 But today it changed to 1156 AM.

01:29:03.920 The family, I can't read my own writing, checks.

01:29:08.820 The family checks on Nancy.

01:29:11.540 She's missing 1156 AM.

01:29:13.880 And then he says at 1203 PM.

01:29:15.940 So seven minutes later, they call the sheriff.

01:29:18.440 That was a new revision of the timeline.

01:29:21.040 Why?

01:29:21.280 Why?

01:29:22.580 Exactly.

01:29:23.100 Because those calls are date stamped.

01:29:26.000 He knew the other day.

01:29:28.660 Like you said, I agree.

01:29:30.000 That's a short time frame.

01:29:31.640 I mean, we've got a large home.

01:29:33.820 We've got a backyard.

01:29:35.580 Wouldn't you assume if you come in?

01:29:37.140 Now, I guess, Megan, the only caveat to this could be when they approached the front door

01:29:41.740 and they saw the blood droplets spatter, they realized, uh-oh, this isn't normal.

01:29:47.260 So now we're going to, you know, call in a normal situation, you would think they'd walk

01:29:51.320 over to the neighbors.

01:29:52.180 Hey, did you see mom call EMS?

01:29:54.500 Hey, did y'all happen to transport anyone?

01:29:56.240 Call the local hospitals?

01:29:57.640 Okay.

01:29:57.720 But let me just say something, Chad.

01:29:59.160 Let me just say something about that.

01:30:00.360 I'm very, again, very open-minded to, this is some guy from Mexico.

01:30:05.340 It's a landscaper.

01:30:06.760 I don't, it's some rando.

01:30:08.000 It's the guy who trespassed on the 90-year-old's lawn a month earlier or sometime within the month

01:30:12.360 of January.

01:30:12.860 I have no idea.

01:30:14.040 But I will say this in the other lane, that it's possibly a family member.

01:30:17.380 Or the original story was definitely that she didn't show up, that the family was told

01:30:23.100 around 1110, she didn't show up at church, and that they spent about an hour looking for

01:30:27.240 her and then called the cops.

01:30:28.520 That's what the sheriff told us.

01:30:29.920 But then what I've seen all over the internet over the past few days is people saying, unlike

01:30:35.000 me, who are unlike, I would wait before I called the cops.

01:30:37.960 All these other people saying, who waits an hour to call the police over their missing

01:30:42.940 elderly mother?

01:30:44.340 And there have been a lot of people online who found that very suspicious.

01:30:49.560 So I have to say, you know, I think it's just those two, Annie and Tomas at this point.

01:30:55.780 Savannah, I presume, was in New York.

01:30:57.480 She was about to go to the Olympics this week.

01:30:58.920 She had a big week in New York.

01:31:00.660 I haven't heard any reports that she was out there already visiting the mom.

01:31:04.060 So I think it's just Annie and the husband, Tomas, are the ones who come on scene and call

01:31:09.360 the sheriff.

01:31:11.700 Are they the ones who changed the timeline?

01:31:14.340 Are they the ones who changed it from, we looked for an hour to, oh, no, no, no.

01:31:19.440 It was 1157 that we, we got to the house and we saw she wasn't there and we called within

01:31:24.720 seven minutes.

01:31:25.400 I don't know, but nobody asked about that change in the timeline.

01:31:29.020 Yeah.

01:31:29.240 You know, and I think it's important to, did, did, um, what's the, what's the daughter's

01:31:33.720 name?

01:31:34.140 Uh, Annie, Annie, Annie and Tomas, did, did they have ring doorbells as well?

01:31:38.240 And do they have young children?

01:31:40.300 Because if they have young children, you know, who doesn't know how to lie very well?

01:31:44.060 Young kids.

01:31:45.120 Hey, the other day, did mom or dad leave at a certain time?

01:31:48.480 You know, these are questions that I would want to ask, you know, whenever I would work,

01:31:52.500 you know, roll up to a domestic kind of call, you separate parties.

01:31:55.760 You know who I'd talk to if I talked to the husband or the wife, I'd talk to the kids because

01:31:59.340 kids are usually good at telling the truth in situations like this.

01:32:02.240 That's so true.

01:32:03.920 Well, and also their phones on Sunday.

01:32:06.840 Now, if they're not, if, if he's not using his phone or she's not using her phone on Sunday,

01:32:10.060 that's suspicious.

01:32:10.840 I mean, everybody picks up their phone when they get up, you know, it's like, sadly, it's

01:32:14.380 a, it's an appendage now.

01:32:15.980 So I think those phones will show us, and maybe they've already looked at that and ruled them

01:32:19.140 out.

01:32:19.380 Although he wouldn't say he'd ruled anybody out.

01:32:21.360 He specifically said they had not ruled anybody out, but you would think that the phone

01:32:25.800 movement on Sunday might show them exactly what the movements were.

01:32:30.040 And when this alleged call came in from the person at the church, because now there's

01:32:34.780 conflicting information on that.

01:32:36.700 This is another thing nobody asked about today at the presser.

01:32:39.660 The original reporting was that she didn't show up at the church and a concerned churchgoer

01:32:46.120 who knows she's always there called the family.

01:32:48.600 And then the family went to the home at around 11, 10.

01:32:51.240 I think there's a 1045 mass, went to the home, blah, blah, blah.

01:32:56.560 But now the Daily Mail, just, just one, one source reporting based on one source of theirs.

01:33:04.360 Okay.

01:33:04.500 So one newspaper with one source says that Nancy Guthrie had not been going to church

01:33:11.120 physically since COVID, that she'd been live streaming it.

01:33:14.240 Um, not even like zooming where the churchgoers can see you, but just live, like watching the

01:33:21.160 church's live stream on her like home TV or computer and, um, that there'd be no way for

01:33:28.880 anybody at the church to know she wasn't participating.

01:33:31.940 Now, Brian Enten raised a good point today when I discussed that with him saying, I just

01:33:35.480 assumed whoever said that, like she hasn't been coming since COVID did not realize she'd

01:33:40.980 probably moved churches, you know, and I do that.

01:33:43.380 I go to more than one church, depending on what my kids' schedules are on Sunday and their

01:33:46.220 sports and all that.

01:33:46.840 But like, that's another possibility we have to keep in mind.

01:33:49.360 I can't go right to the nefarious place.

01:33:51.020 Like somebody lied, but it is an interesting possibility that she was not physically ever

01:33:57.220 at church and nobody noticed that she wasn't at church.

01:34:00.140 And if that's true, Chad, then we really do have some hard questions for Annie and Tomas.

01:34:05.820 Like, how did you know something was wrong on Sunday morning?

01:34:11.780 Exactly.

01:34:12.380 So what, you know, what are y'all's routines on Sunday as a family?

01:34:15.320 You live 10 minutes down the road, you know, do, do you typically come over after church

01:34:19.940 and have lunch like I did at my grandmother's house, uh, growing up?

01:34:24.180 Um, but again, if that is the case, 100% tough questions are going to have to be asked.

01:34:30.620 Um, we're looking it up because we actually, I had my team go back and check the actual

01:34:38.020 church name that was, if it was said by the sheriff initially that she was supposed to

01:34:43.900 be at, but didn't show up at on Sunday.

01:34:46.140 And then I believe the Daily Mail mentioned the church that she had not gone to since

01:34:51.000 COVID.

01:34:51.380 So we're going to do that comparison right now.

01:34:53.320 Uh, oh, Mike's just coming in.

01:34:54.580 Hold on a second.

01:34:55.660 Um, all reporting states that Nancy Guthrie attended St. Andrew's Presbyterian.

01:35:00.620 Okay.

01:35:01.400 So it's right now, it's not looking like it's a different church.

01:35:04.300 The Daily Mail source is from that church and that's the church the sheriff mentioned

01:35:09.080 that she always goes to.

01:35:10.380 Now, just because one person told the Daily Mail, Nancy Guthrie stopped going in person

01:35:15.680 and that she was doing live streaming since COVID doesn't mean it's true either.

01:35:19.820 I mean, I will say like if my church is any, if there's anything like mine, you do kind

01:35:23.600 of know who, who do, because I see the same faces.

01:35:25.640 And if you know them, you would notice if they weren't there.

01:35:28.680 Our, our priest just the other weekend when we had that big snowstorm was like, we all

01:35:32.020 went to 530 mass the night before, 515 mass the night before.

01:35:35.100 And he was like, oh, I'm seeing all the people.

01:35:36.940 You, you guys are from the 930.

01:35:38.460 You guys are from the 1045.

01:35:39.760 You know, like you do kind of know.

01:35:41.960 And when it's an elderly woman, I think a lot of us keep tabs on them for their families.

01:35:46.520 You know, like just obviously we, we, uh, what'd you say, Steve?

01:35:53.780 Okay.

01:35:55.260 Oh, really?

01:35:56.040 Oh, oh, that's interesting.

01:35:57.360 My executive producer, Steve Krakar, just confirming in my ear that now Brian Enten of

01:36:01.500 News Nation is confirming the Daily Mail report that, that Nancy Guthrie had not been attending

01:36:08.080 in person since COVID, her church, and that she was live streaming the church service.

01:36:14.720 So, I mean, honestly, maybe there's some innocent explanation for this that we're not thinking

01:36:19.800 of right now, but that to me is a huge red flag, Chad.

01:36:23.620 I agree.

01:36:24.840 I mean, are we, was it someone that just misspoke, um, or someone trying to get their name out

01:36:31.220 there, you know, to get involved in this case?

01:36:33.300 I'm not sure.

01:36:34.680 Um, but, but certainly, you know, that's going to be able to be deciphered pretty quickly,

01:36:40.000 um, by law enforcement.

01:36:42.580 I, what I haven't seen a lot of.

01:36:45.020 And the church, I just should, I should point out the church is not commenting.

01:36:47.820 The church has been contacted in a few of these reports that I've seen so far, and they just

01:36:52.240 keep saying, we love Nancy and we're, we're not, not going to comment.

01:36:56.500 So clearly they've been contacted by law enforcement and they are keeping their mouths

01:37:00.080 shut, which is proper, but that's also interesting.

01:37:02.780 Sorry, keep going.

01:37:03.400 No, I, you know, I, as we expand and look at all possibilities here, you've mentioned

01:37:09.320 it, you know, we're, we're less than probably an hour from the, from the border.

01:37:13.260 We do know that the cartel dabbles, uh, and, and does a lot of transactions via cryptocurrency,

01:37:19.540 but I still go back to why, why Nancy, why an 84 year old woman, um, in this situation.

01:37:28.060 Um, but I, I do, uh, you know, I will say this, I truly believe, and we all agree there

01:37:36.780 is more than they are sharing.

01:37:39.060 And I re I appreciate that.

01:37:40.580 I respect that.

01:37:41.860 Um, but hopefully we get some solid answers quick.

01:37:46.820 Mm-hmm.

01:37:48.080 Here's the soundbite I've been waiting for.

01:37:49.740 Um, I mentioned it three times that they originally said that Annie dropped the mom off back at

01:37:56.560 her house on Saturday night.

01:37:58.260 And then yesterday the sheriff made a point of telling the New York times, I want to update

01:38:01.260 my reporting.

01:38:02.100 It was actually Tomas and everybody ran with that.

01:38:05.300 Cause that was a material change, especially in the light of Ashley's reporting.

01:38:08.280 It was like, okay, I'm hearing that name for the second time.

01:38:11.660 Then today came up again and the sheriff wiggled on it.

01:38:14.460 Very interestingly, it's sat one 12.

01:38:17.160 You know, there's also conflicting reports about who was the last person to actually see Nancy

01:38:22.240 and drive her home.

01:38:23.000 We know she took an Uber to Annie's house, but can't confirm whether it was

01:38:26.460 Annie or her son-in-law to also took her home.

01:38:29.200 I think, uh, the, the timeline that the sheriff provided was a family member, but just family.

01:38:33.680 We're going to go with family.

01:38:35.920 Well, we're going to go with Chad.

01:38:40.420 That's very strange.

01:38:41.620 I mean, he said it, he explicitly said it on camera.

01:38:45.440 Uh, I'm going to quote you from the New York times piece, the headline of which was search

01:38:49.180 for Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's mother grows more urgent.

01:38:51.700 And then he, this is the quote, um, this isn't a perfect quote.

01:38:56.580 Ms. Guthrie's son-in-law, Tommaso Sione dropped her off and ensured she made it inside safely

01:39:02.920 before leaving.

01:39:04.080 The sheriff added.

01:39:05.480 He was on the record with the New York times.

01:39:09.140 And that was 100% different.

01:39:11.040 They had said it was Annie earlier.

01:39:13.400 Um, or in some cases they had said family, but here he's getting specific with the New

01:39:18.340 York times saying it was Tommaso Sione, the son-in-law.

01:39:22.200 And she, he made, he made sure that she made it inside, ensured she made it inside safely

01:39:26.860 before leaving the sheriff added.

01:39:28.980 And so now can we just play one more time?

01:39:30.960 Why is he doing that at one 12?

01:39:32.420 It's not one 12.

01:39:33.640 You know, there's also conflicting reports about who was the last person to actually see

01:39:37.840 Nancy and drive her home.

01:39:39.380 We know she took an Uber to Annie's house, but can't confirm whether it was Annie or her

01:39:43.620 son-in-law to also took her home.

01:39:45.480 I think, uh, the, the timeline that the sheriff provided was a family member, but we're going

01:39:50.480 to go with family.

01:39:51.140 I mean, the, the, the, the words we're going to go with, Chad are doing a lot of work there.

01:39:57.480 Well, what I want to go with is I want to know who was the last person to see Nancy Guthrie.

01:40:02.680 This is, this is criminal investigation 101 start there.

01:40:06.920 So why is there so much BS and, and changing of stories?

01:40:11.340 Um, that's frustrating.

01:40:13.020 And it's really hard for individuals like myself and, you know, the other guests to, to

01:40:18.260 kind of start piecing this thing together when every other presser, we're getting, you

01:40:22.440 know, different Intel or information coming in.

01:40:24.560 Diametrically opposed.

01:40:26.320 She was grabbed from her bed.

01:40:27.940 No, she wasn't grabbed from her bed.

01:40:29.580 I like completely reversed himself on that.

01:40:31.660 And there've been quite a few things that the sheriff is, he acknowledged making mistakes.

01:40:35.160 I'll say something in Tomas's defense though.

01:40:37.440 Maybe the sheriff changed it back to family because he realized there's too much heat coming

01:40:41.600 down on this guy.

01:40:42.240 I don't think he's our guy.

01:40:44.240 I'm like trying with, without ruling anybody out because I can't totally know that he didn't

01:40:50.140 do it at this point.

01:40:50.980 I'm trying to remove him from the front burner in a polite way, but he doesn't, he underestimates

01:40:56.880 the media's attention to detail.

01:40:58.980 Yeah, I totally agree.

01:41:00.760 It's, do we know which, which I haven't been able to research?

01:41:04.680 What is, what does Tomas or whatever his name is do for a living?

01:41:07.780 He is, last we checked, he was a part-time teacher at, in middle school, a sixth and

01:41:15.000 eighth grade, part-time, I believe.

01:41:17.400 And then his wife is a poet.

01:41:20.020 They live in a, I think a $600,000 house that they, either they got married in 2006 and,

01:41:26.440 or they purchased the house back then.

01:41:28.120 But, you know, the mother's house is worth a million dollars now, but they've been living

01:41:31.540 in it since 1992.

01:41:33.020 By my math, Savannah's dad died in 1989 or 90.

01:41:40.740 So my guess is, you know, I don't think the mother has any sort of a, an income.

01:41:45.600 My guess is she used her husband's insurance money.

01:41:47.640 Sure.

01:41:48.520 And she bought that house, which wasn't a million dollars back in 1991 or two.

01:41:53.560 And she's been living in it ever since.

01:41:56.560 And I'll bet you that the sister's house, 10 minutes away, wasn't $600,000 when she bought

01:42:01.980 it either, probably appreciated in value, but this is not a rich couple.

01:42:06.060 And look, I can speak to this.

01:42:08.400 Obviously, I'm making a healthy living in my line of work, but my sister, my, my dear

01:42:14.180 sister who died a couple of years ago, who is six years older than I am, um, she didn't

01:42:20.600 have money.

01:42:21.100 She didn't have a professionally successful life and I helped support her for all of her

01:42:28.420 adulthood.

01:42:29.080 And so I don't know whether they're in that situation.

01:42:32.100 I, I confess to you when I saw the sister, I wondered because she, she, she looked, I

01:42:38.660 don't know.

01:42:39.300 She looked, they all look rough around the edges right now because they're grieving.

01:42:42.960 But I just, I wonder, I don't think the sister is a woman of means.

01:42:45.840 And I just wonder what the real dynamic there is.

01:42:48.580 Savannah is staying with her, we believe.

01:42:51.320 And Tomas.

01:42:52.620 So, I mean, I, you, you do have to say like, if I were staying with my sister and I thought

01:42:55.920 that her husband may have had something to do with kidnapping or worse with my mom, I

01:43:01.480 think of a reason to go to the hotel.

01:43:04.100 So that's something in their favor too.

01:43:06.080 And the only reason that they're, they're so under the scrutiny right now is that we

01:43:11.640 got nobody else.

01:43:12.660 You know, we should spend some time on the, the weird guy who crossed into the 90 year

01:43:16.800 old's lawn in January, because that is disturbing.

01:43:21.160 Not a single person asked about that either today, but there was a 90 year old couple

01:43:26.740 doors down from Nancy Guthrie who saw a trespasser come on his lawn and he turned on the floodlight,

01:43:33.880 good for him, and scared the guy off.

01:43:36.280 He took off.

01:43:37.520 And Tucson, notwithstanding, last, yesterday I went to talk to Ashley.

01:43:40.100 She was like, oh, Tucson, they don't see a lot of murders.

01:43:42.300 You should see my inbox.

01:43:43.700 All my listeners and viewers in Tucson are like, is she kidding me?

01:43:46.900 Like, I really, I don't think I've ever been to Tucson, but they were basically like, it's

01:43:51.580 a hell hole.

01:43:52.380 You should see the number of crimes we have.

01:43:54.040 Well, and, and, and again, that takes you back to, well, what kind of life insurance

01:43:57.720 policy did Nancy have?

01:43:59.100 Right.

01:43:59.460 Because if, if that's going to take me back to the family versus a random type of attack,

01:44:05.280 but, and again, let's just stay with the family angle.

01:44:09.500 If she does have a life insurance policy is the ransom note with the Bitcoin just to throw

01:44:13.880 off law enforcement.

01:44:15.080 I don't know, but you're right.

01:44:16.300 One thing we do know is diving in and getting information from these cryptocurrency places

01:44:21.280 is extremely, extremely difficult.

01:44:26.320 Forget it.

01:44:27.540 We, we did a whole week on people's fraud stories, like people who had been defrauded or

01:44:33.440 almost defrauded.

01:44:34.500 And we were on there.

01:44:36.120 We did not get defrauded, but they tried to defraud me and my husband and my husband's

01:44:40.180 family.

01:44:40.620 His, his mom was the target.

01:44:42.320 But in any event, they wanted Bitcoin from us, which was one of our first clues that

01:44:46.500 we were like, Oh, but that we did take a deep dive into the Bitcoin thing.

01:44:52.140 And it's like, you put money in there.

01:44:55.760 It's gone.

01:44:57.020 You, it is not traceable.

01:44:59.120 Like the cops were like, never, ever give money via Bitcoin.

01:45:03.480 It's not traceable.

01:45:04.720 You'll never get it back.

01:45:06.100 And you'll never figure out who you sent it to.

01:45:08.440 I was like, how, how is this allowed?

01:45:11.120 You're right.

01:45:11.400 But what I do know is that in every crime, I would say, uh, the suspect is going to mess

01:45:17.840 up.

01:45:19.320 There's going to be something left, whether like we mentioned, touch DNA, you know, I

01:45:25.660 don't care if you wear gloves and a Tyvek suit, something, something is, it was left.

01:45:31.240 There is some type of DNA evidence somewhere in that residence.

01:45:34.960 Look, we saw it from the Cole Berger case, um, with the knife sheath and then using the

01:45:39.240 genealogy testing.

01:45:40.280 Look, I hope it's not the family.

01:45:42.520 I truly do.

01:45:43.800 Um, but again, we, we, no stone was going to go unturned.

01:45:47.860 We heard the sheriff say that I am just glad that the FBI is there utilizing their resources.

01:45:52.980 You know, we have the, the, the ability to use cell phone triangulation to see what cell

01:45:59.400 phones were in that area during that timeframe.

01:46:01.820 And again, that's not saying someone took a cell phone, but I will, I will feel a lot better.

01:46:07.220 Um, once we get the data back from all families, vehicles that live in the area, cell phone,

01:46:13.620 diving into those, his, um, computer as Chromebook at school.

01:46:18.000 I want, I want to dive into that.

01:46:19.680 We, we have to eliminate, we have to eliminate them as a suspect to begin with.

01:46:25.820 Once we do that, I feel like then we can dive into some deeper waters here.

01:46:29.360 I agree with that.

01:46:31.440 I agree with that totally.

01:46:32.320 And look, this is what I'm, I'm an addict to Dateline, which is an NBC crime show.

01:46:38.960 And every single Dateline will tell you the very first thing you have to do is rule out

01:46:43.220 the immediate family.

01:46:43.900 And I'm sure that's what the sheriff's working on.

01:46:45.820 That's what we're discussing because there is a report by not some nutcase.

01:46:49.600 Ashley Banfield is a very serious crime reporter.

01:46:52.340 Um, she, she, I've been following her avidly for 20 years.

01:46:56.800 She's, she does not just throw things on the board, this serious understanding what you're

01:47:01.660 potentially doing to this grieving family member, if you're wrong without really trusting

01:47:06.600 her source.

01:47:07.160 And she, not only did she say extremely laudatory things about the source, I then asked her after

01:47:13.300 the sheriff came out and clearly denied your reporting and called it irresponsible.

01:47:16.980 Did you go back to your source?

01:47:18.500 And she said, yep, I did.

01:47:20.180 And he stood by his comments and said, they're all clamming up.

01:47:25.400 So that's where that is.

01:47:27.800 Again, for what it's worth, nobody else has matched it.

01:47:30.020 We don't know.

01:47:30.780 That could be because it's wrong and it could be good because they're all clamming up.

01:47:33.580 We just don't know.

01:47:34.740 Um, I, just a couple of other items from the presser.

01:47:38.120 They've offered a $50,000 reward now.

01:47:41.020 That was interesting, Chad.

01:47:42.420 Like why now it was 2,500 bucks as of, you know, two days ago.

01:47:48.340 Why are they, what's going on now?

01:47:50.080 Now it's 50,000.

01:47:51.780 I think they're just, they're struggling to get solid evidence and solid intel on this

01:47:58.060 thing.

01:47:58.380 And they are hoping, listen, $50,000 is a lot of money to a lot of people.

01:48:03.880 Um, it's a lot of money to me.

01:48:05.520 Um, and if someone is sitting because personally, and I, and I know everyone's got their opinion

01:48:10.820 on this, I don't believe this was a one man show acting completely on their own.

01:48:16.540 I just don't.

01:48:17.560 Um, and I think that possibly, you know, loose lips sink ships and someone's probably, you

01:48:24.880 know, my expertise also is on the active shooter side.

01:48:27.900 We've talked about that in the past, but a large percent of people who commit acts either

01:48:35.040 say something to someone they trust.

01:48:36.960 Very few people can keep something in.

01:48:39.000 And let me assure you, whoever this is, unless it is some cartel hit man, anybody that has

01:48:46.280 somewhat of a soul sooner or later finds a breaking point and having to close your eyes

01:48:51.220 every night and seeing certain images comes, you know, it eats away at you.

01:48:55.700 And sooner or later, you feel like you just got to share in confidence to somebody.

01:49:00.340 And maybe that's what the money is there for is just to try to incite someone to come forward

01:49:05.600 with something more solid so they can, you know, have probable cause to make an arrest on

01:49:09.540 someone.

01:49:10.940 Well, that's the other thing that we haven't discussed.

01:49:13.620 I'm probably avoiding it for a reason.

01:49:16.220 Um, I know for a fact, Savannah's got some deranged people who follow her and who have been,

01:49:22.660 who have posed a threat to her in the security department.

01:49:25.600 I'm not revealing anything I learned at NBC, by the way, this was given to me recently

01:49:28.720 by a tipster.

01:49:29.920 Um, and that's not unusual.

01:49:32.260 I mean, that's, you could probably say that for virtually any major figure on camera, on

01:49:37.120 TV or, you know, in the news.

01:49:39.240 And so like, there really is a chance that some nutcase obsessed with her realizing they

01:49:47.840 couldn't get to her, Chad, because, you know, of course, Savannah's got the proper security

01:49:52.780 precautions in her life.

01:49:53.860 She's got young children.

01:49:55.600 Decided to go after her mom.

01:49:58.180 I mean, that, that's got to be an angle that the FBI, I guess, I guess would be pursuing

01:50:04.080 that right now, looking into any threat she'd received.

01:50:07.660 I know that there have been, you know, stalk, stalkers and like incarcerations.

01:50:11.620 So all of that, that's got to be, each one of those has got to be tracked down and followed

01:50:16.660 up on.

01:50:17.220 I think, and there's, there's, there's ways and, and programs out there, you know, I would

01:50:22.300 dive into her social media.

01:50:23.580 Who's been liking, you know, is there a repeated person that's liking a bunch of photos?

01:50:27.700 There's a bunch of people flooding her, you know, DMs, you know, those unread messages that

01:50:32.700 go to those folders.

01:50:33.500 But you're right.

01:50:34.980 And that's the sick times that we live in.

01:50:37.440 And Megan, we were talking right after Charlie was killed and, you know, the, the importance

01:50:42.540 of executive protection.

01:50:44.140 And, you know, that's what I do.

01:50:46.560 And it's the day and age where unfortunately people go to extremes and it's not just like

01:50:53.340 movie stars and actors.

01:50:54.640 People are so contentious on the political side of things.

01:50:59.240 There's so many people that just hate Donald Trump so much.

01:51:02.660 And, and, and listen, I'm not telling you anything that you don't know and your team and,

01:51:06.080 and, and other podcasters out here and news people, unfortunately people resort to violence

01:51:12.780 when they don't get their way.

01:51:14.860 And, and that very well could be a reason.

01:51:20.720 There is a report in the Daily Mail actually right now showing a segment that aired on the

01:51:30.320 Today Show in November, which really isn't that long ago, showing footage from Savannah

01:51:37.420 returning to her hometown of Tucson and being with her mother, Nancy.

01:51:42.800 The Daily Mail is reporting that some at NBC are worried about this segment.

01:51:48.840 It was a homecoming special that they aired.

01:51:51.980 I mean, I have to say, that's the thing about like these morning shows and having been at

01:51:56.040 the Today Show for a year, they really want you to put your personal life on the air.

01:52:00.620 They, they, they press hard for you to like reveal very personal details about your, your

01:52:07.460 family, your kids, your marriage, your, your mom, your, all of that.

01:52:11.900 There's zero doubt in my mind.

01:52:14.000 Savannah felt that too.

01:52:15.140 And here's a clip from what aired.

01:52:19.000 Mom, you guys came here in the seventies and you'd been moving all around.

01:52:23.680 What made you want to stay in Tucson and to Aunt Roots?

01:52:26.620 I'm so wonderful.

01:52:27.480 Just the air, the quality of life is played back and gentle.

01:52:33.200 Yeah.

01:52:33.360 I like to watch the javelina eat my plants.

01:52:37.560 But the best thing about Tucson is coming home.

01:52:40.180 Yes.

01:52:40.380 And seeing you guys.

01:52:41.240 Should we raise the glass?

01:52:42.740 Prickly pear margarita.

01:52:44.300 Cheers.

01:52:45.240 Cheers.

01:52:45.920 Love you.

01:52:46.460 Love you.

01:52:48.860 Now what they report in the Daily Mail is that there is, this is a quote, there's a lot

01:52:52.320 of soul searching at NBC about whether their segment made Nancy a target.

01:52:56.760 A Today Show source told the Mail.

01:52:59.540 The segment did not feature Nancy's home or disclose details about where she lived.

01:53:03.220 But after this week's events, people around here at NBC, this is a quote, are going to

01:53:07.300 think twice before putting their family on television at all.

01:53:11.060 Man, that's a dark thought.

01:53:12.320 And it's awful.

01:53:13.260 But I think that's the important part if individuals, you know, who are, whether you're a high networked

01:53:20.960 family or you're a news personality or an actor or an actress, you know, when I meet with a new

01:53:26.980 client, you know, with executive protection and we have numerous clients that families that we

01:53:31.560 protect and congressmen that we protect.

01:53:33.260 It's so important.

01:53:34.880 We are so addicted to this and our social media that, you know, just, just be, just be aware.

01:53:41.560 You go on family vacation, talk to your children.

01:53:43.880 Hey guys, don't be taking photos of, of us out at dinner because all that can be, I can

01:53:49.320 put images in Google and find out where you are.

01:53:51.500 You want to post that.

01:53:52.500 We can post our family photos when we get back.

01:53:54.780 But again, we want to make sure that, you know, the safety and security of our clients

01:53:58.880 is our highest priority.

01:54:00.640 And so basically putting out where your mother lives, that is a different angle that we need

01:54:06.860 to look at.

01:54:08.460 I mean, you don't, I, like, I just, I'm sure she wasn't thinking that way.

01:54:13.320 I'm sure.

01:54:13.780 Sure.

01:54:14.260 You think that way about your children, right?

01:54:16.500 But this is yet another, another one of those firsts, Chad, where it's like, I've, I'm sorry

01:54:23.300 to raise it, but like the, the murder of Charlie, it's like, it was a first, it was

01:54:27.320 like a, a, a pundit, like a public figure talking head who, who gets murdered in an outdoor

01:54:33.880 amphitheater because he's just going out there to speak to people.

01:54:36.580 Like it was a new, in the way Columbine introduced this horrible, evil new way of ending people's

01:54:44.360 lives into our national consciousness.

01:54:46.860 And the Charlie thing happened, which I do think changes public speaking for most people

01:54:50.580 forever.

01:54:51.500 And now this, no, I just think as a public figure, you are not thinking upward in terms

01:54:58.380 of protection.

01:54:59.020 You're thinking downward in the generations because you're, you know, you're thinking

01:55:02.740 about your littles and like, if somebody gets kidnapped, it's usually a toddler, you know,

01:55:08.060 it's, I don't remember an 84 year old ever getting kidnapped before.

01:55:12.660 No, but it, you know, this, this, and this case takes me back to several years ago here in

01:55:18.700 Greenville, South Carolina, there was an elderly couple who was brutally murdered in their home.

01:55:23.340 And I mean, an elderly couple.

01:55:24.560 Um, and come to find out it was, um, a worker that had been working there and saw a large amount of

01:55:34.060 jewelry, credit cards, obviously got stolen.

01:55:37.820 I mean, you're going to get caught there.

01:55:40.880 Um, but there's just, unfortunately, Megan, there's too many potential subjects that could

01:55:46.480 be involved in this.

01:55:47.520 And we just don't know right now.

01:55:50.080 Mm-hmm.

01:55:50.920 I mean, it is disturbing to think that it was just November that she broadcast that her mother

01:55:55.680 does live in Tucson.

01:55:57.080 And I haven't checked, but like, I'll bet it's fairly easy to find the mom's address.

01:56:02.340 She lives alone.

01:56:04.180 She's elderly.

01:56:05.660 And so if you wanted to, back to Jim's theory of it's either for money, if it's a kidnapping,

01:56:09.880 or it's for revenge, you wanted to hurt Savannah Guthrie for some reason.

01:56:13.920 And like, yeah, people have to understand, you don't have to be controversial.

01:56:17.580 You know, you don't have to be, uh, our pal Tucker, who's a lightning rod, um, in order

01:56:23.740 to invite this nonsense into your life.

01:56:26.040 Like I've told the story before, but my very first year at Fox news, I was a baby in TV.

01:56:31.840 I was a cub reporter.

01:56:33.020 I developed a very serious stalker, uh, a previously convicted felon who he was convinced

01:56:40.880 that we were in a love relationship.

01:56:42.560 They call it an erotomaniac.

01:56:44.620 I'd never met him.

01:56:46.220 I'd never seen him.

01:56:47.980 He just saw me on TV and his mind, which was addled, convinced him that we were in love

01:56:53.920 and we were having a relationship and that my hand gestures on the air were communicating

01:56:58.460 messages to him.

01:57:00.620 And this was a very dangerous man.

01:57:02.340 He wound up going away for 10 years for this crime.

01:57:04.980 And so my point is simply back then I, even I wasn't controversial.

01:57:09.400 I was rather new and kind of sweet and just covering the Supreme court in very generic

01:57:14.240 terms.

01:57:14.900 So it can happen to anybody, even somebody who's co-hosting the today show, which isn't

01:57:19.940 particularly, um, controversial.

01:57:22.420 I just, there are nut cases in this business and, uh, we definitely cannot rule that one out,

01:57:28.120 unfortunately.

01:57:28.480 Although you tell me, Chad, is there a sophistication to this crime that under undermines the theory

01:57:34.700 of nutcase?

01:57:35.480 It's hard to say because of the, I don't want to say lack of transparency.

01:57:43.020 I understand why they're doing it.

01:57:45.140 Um, but it's hard to say, I feel like a true nutcase and someone that's, you know, not done

01:57:55.200 a lot of homework or prepared and didn't know the area very well would have slipped up somehow.

01:58:01.100 Um, um, yes.

01:58:04.560 Does that make sense?

01:58:05.500 I, you know, yeah, it's, they would, they would have forgotten to wear gloves.

01:58:09.820 Something would have slipped up.

01:58:12.860 Hair would have been found.

01:58:14.860 Um, they wouldn't have known about the two nest cameras.

01:58:19.420 I mean, there were two, the person knew to take them both out.

01:58:22.820 So, so again, that takes me back to someone personal and I'm not saying family.

01:58:28.440 I'm just saying someone, I truly believe it is someone who has been in that residence before.

01:58:35.980 Mm-hmm.

01:58:37.280 Mm-hmm.

01:58:38.820 Um, okay.

01:58:39.540 Just one, one final look at my notes before I let you go.

01:58:42.180 Sure.

01:58:42.360 I want to make sure we, we have it all.

01:58:45.020 Let's see.

01:58:45.580 Um, they did check to see, uh, with local hospitals, if somebody had sought to refill

01:58:53.040 her critical prescriptions.

01:58:54.440 All about that.

01:58:54.980 The sheriff did reveal that and they, he said, we checked virtually every hour in the

01:59:00.100 first day or so.

01:59:01.560 It didn't, I, it could have gone on longer.

01:59:03.500 He, he just mentioned that immediate timeframe and they did not.

01:59:06.920 Well, one thing to look at Megan with the pharmacy aspect would be, I would like to know

01:59:13.520 when her script for those pills that she needs on a daily basis, when were they filled

01:59:18.660 and how many are left in the bottle that was left at the house?

01:59:22.220 So did the person who took her throw some, cause they knew she needed them.

01:59:27.640 They're that personal.

01:59:28.460 They want to keep her alive.

01:59:29.400 So they took a handful of them to give her a daily dose of her pill to keep her alive.

01:59:34.160 There's an avenue as well, uh, an aspect that, you know, could be looked at as well.

01:59:38.940 Okay.

01:59:39.460 The, the script, she's supposed to take one a day.

01:59:41.600 You know what I mean?

01:59:42.460 Um, yeah, if she just got it filled two days earlier and that bottle's missing all the

01:59:47.740 pills, then this was somebody who actually planned a little, like dumped them out in

01:59:53.060 his hand and ran.

01:59:54.000 Knew that she needed them.

01:59:55.000 I mean, the, the odds of that, I just, well, who knows?

01:59:58.700 I mean, if it, if it, if it was somebody who knew her well and really did have the intention

02:00:02.720 of keeping her alive long enough to get paid, then it, it could have happened.

02:00:07.400 We can't rule it out.

02:00:08.280 Uh, the ransom letter that they confirmed for the first time that the note that was

02:00:12.960 sent to the media is the note that we are working on.

02:00:16.300 And that he did say he believes it was the same note, uh, the same, same note that the

02:00:22.960 two local outlets in Tucson got and that TMZ got.

02:00:26.860 And that's the only note they know about.

02:00:28.340 They did say that they arrested some other hoaxster for sending a different ransom demand

02:00:33.660 that we didn't know about before today.

02:00:35.400 That is not related to that note and reminded everybody that if you decide to be such a

02:00:39.580 hoaxster, you will get arrested too.

02:00:41.320 They did confirm that the ransom note did not establish a communication method that dovetails

02:00:45.520 with what we heard from Harvey Levin on TMZ saying that the note basically said, there'll

02:00:49.900 be no talking.

02:00:51.000 We were not interested in talking.

02:00:52.500 We just want to get paid.

02:00:54.400 Um, was the doorbell camera taken?

02:00:57.420 The sheriff, we don't have it.

02:00:59.420 So that's kind of an implicit yes.

02:01:01.220 Um, well, I don't know.

02:01:04.800 That's interesting.

02:01:05.340 Was the doorbell camera taken?

02:01:06.320 Sheriff, we don't have it.

02:01:08.180 What Ashley had reported was that she was told the doorbell cams had been destroyed by

02:01:14.100 the perpetrator.

02:01:14.940 And then she believed removed by the sheriff.

02:01:19.360 So actually, if he's saying we don't have the doorbell cam, it's possible that the bad

02:01:24.280 guy took the doorbell cam to like destroyed it and took it, um, again, disconnected at

02:01:32.520 one 47, but the software detected a person on cam at two 12.

02:01:36.280 That's the biggest mystery of the day.

02:01:37.740 None of us has that figured out unless he, the sheriff did say he wasn't sure if it was

02:01:41.200 the front front camera or the back camera, acknowledging that there was one in the front

02:01:44.580 in the back door that caught the image of the person on cam.

02:01:47.620 Um, so I suppose it's possible that one was destroyed at one 47 and the other one detected

02:01:55.600 an image at two 12 remains a mystery.

02:01:58.880 You look like you want to say something.

02:01:59.920 Well, I'm just thinking I'm trying, I'm trying to place this out.

02:02:02.080 So I know we've talked about, well, could the suspect have come through the back?

02:02:05.900 We see the blood spatter on the front porch area coming out of the front door.

02:02:11.580 So it's almost like she did exit through the front door.

02:02:15.360 So if you're trying to be discreet, why would you come from the back, but then exit from

02:02:19.420 the front?

02:02:21.400 It makes no sense unless you just, you needed to get her into a car and that was the only

02:02:26.080 way.

02:02:26.480 Sure.

02:02:27.140 Yeah.

02:02:27.420 But you'd have to pull a car up.

02:02:28.520 I mean, I suppose it's possible.

02:02:29.700 The guy could have come in the back.

02:02:31.540 He could have dismantled or disabled that back camera.

02:02:35.520 He's in the house now.

02:02:37.660 He gets her.

02:02:38.700 He has an accomplice with a car out in the front driveway.

02:02:43.360 He hurts her in order to get her to comply.

02:02:46.000 And on the way out, he takes out that front cam, which possibly, possibly explains the difference

02:02:54.000 in dates.

02:02:54.620 I mean, like in times, I don't know.

02:02:56.580 Shouldn't there technically be at 147, one doorbell cam was disconnected and then a second

02:03:02.920 time where the second one was disconnected?

02:03:05.020 Correct.

02:03:05.280 And shouldn't they both follow the software detecting a person on camera?

02:03:09.500 That's, they should, both of those camera destructions or disconnections should follow

02:03:14.980 the software detecting a person on cam.

02:03:17.700 Correct.

02:03:19.020 Yeah.

02:03:19.580 So that's, that's one of the mysteries from today.

02:03:22.440 There was a question, has the family received an image?

02:03:25.300 Because of the reference in Savannah's on camera remarks last night, digital images can

02:03:30.360 be manipulated.

02:03:32.220 You know, we need proof of life.

02:03:33.780 And so that had us too, or wondering earlier, was she sent something that we don't know about?

02:03:39.440 Like in those emailed ransom messages, was there an image of Nancy?

02:03:47.560 I feel like the guys at TMZ who have lifted the dress up pretty high on what was on the

02:03:53.240 note would have suggested there's something indisputable in there to show that they have Nancy.

02:04:00.120 Um, but the question was, have they received an image?

02:04:04.280 Has the family received an image of Nancy?

02:04:05.900 And the, um, answer was, we're not going to get into that.

02:04:09.680 And then just talked about the dangers of AI.

02:04:12.740 Okay.

02:04:13.160 Well, that doesn't, you know, that doesn't tell us much.

02:04:16.620 Um, actively looking at everyone, the sheriff, the only DNA evidence we've got is from, we've

02:04:24.780 gotten back is from the front porch, that blood evidence.

02:04:27.280 Other items could take longer.

02:04:29.460 We did process some others for DNA.

02:04:32.440 So there might've been something else inside the house.

02:04:34.860 That's good.

02:04:35.620 It's good to hear that they might have something still that could come back.

02:04:38.640 Uh, the FBI confirming that they were there yesterday in Annie's house to participate in

02:04:46.600 the video, to help with the video, but underscoring that was the family's decision.

02:04:50.960 The family decided that they want, they wanted to be contacted.

02:04:54.480 They want to be in touch with the kidnapper.

02:04:56.220 Um, there's been no contact after that note went to the media.

02:04:59.980 We have a hostage negotiator as well as someone from Quantico.

02:05:05.740 So the, whoever wrote that ransom note has not contacted anybody to their knowledge since

02:05:11.220 then.

02:05:11.580 So if there was an AI image sent, it was in that note.

02:05:14.780 And I'm misreading Harvey Levin.

02:05:17.600 And the question is, who would they call?

02:05:22.240 You know, if they've seen this, you know, on Instagram of all places, which I think is

02:05:27.160 very interesting in and of itself that they didn't go on, you know, they didn't choose

02:05:31.460 to go on this show or Fox or CNN, any of these other outlets.

02:05:35.060 They chose one that they know millions and millions and millions of people are going to

02:05:40.540 see.

02:05:41.380 Um, I think that's very interesting, but how, you know, how do they get in touch with, with,

02:05:47.040 with the family?

02:05:47.640 What would that look like in the future?

02:05:49.040 I mean, you got to think right now, TMZ and these two Tucson outlets are hitting refresh

02:05:54.540 in their email every two seconds, right?

02:05:58.620 Because if this really is a kidnapper who's got Nancy Guthrie and there was a five o'clock

02:06:04.820 deadline today, they didn't say what time where I'm assuming Arizona time.

02:06:09.760 Um, I mean, that's scary, but I mean, realistically, do we believe the five o'clock deadline?

02:06:14.700 Because like the family is saying, we want to talk.

02:06:17.580 And if you think, if you're a real kidnapper and you think you got them on the line and one

02:06:20.860 of them's rich, I don't think you just kill the mother.

02:06:23.920 I mean, in this scenario.

02:06:24.920 No, I'm going to want to work.

02:06:25.900 If this is the case and you really want to do that and you truly want this cryptocurrency,

02:06:30.560 you're going to say, okay, I'm ready to talk to you.

02:06:34.740 You put some fake, you know, digital voice on or some computer app and you're talking to

02:06:39.580 them and, um, you go from there.

02:06:41.900 So I, I, I agree with you on that.

02:06:43.720 Um, um, okay, let's see when did, uh, let's say, is there any signs that someone tried

02:06:51.760 to clean up the crime scene?

02:06:53.220 Brian Enten asked that.

02:06:54.460 They said, we can't talk about that right now.

02:06:57.520 Um, then they said the reason that they were back on the property searching again, even though

02:07:04.780 they had already done that and then returned the property over to the family, uh, was that

02:07:09.520 the FBI came to town and they just wanted like their own look.

02:07:12.940 Do you buy that?

02:07:13.960 What do you think actually happened there yesterday when they returned to the crime scene, did

02:07:16.980 a search down the road from where the house is on foot, like a grid search on foot.

02:07:22.620 And then two hours later went to the actual house of Nancy Guthrie with FBI agents in the

02:07:27.260 garage for quite some time in the backyard for quite some time and in the house for the

02:07:30.580 main time for about two hours with a helicopter hovering overhead for about one hour and then

02:07:36.500 left and took their crime scene down again and went home.

02:07:39.600 No, I honestly, I think that, and again, I don't want to.

02:07:42.940 I'm not trying to down the sheriff's office or the out there, but the FBI is going to have

02:07:48.620 the best crime scene, text technology resources out there.

02:07:53.640 Um, so it doesn't surprise me that they went back and just kind of did a secondary.

02:07:57.720 They probably went to the sheriff's office, looked at all their video, um, and photographs

02:08:03.400 and, and, and, and really took about a day or two to dive into this case and then realize,

02:08:08.940 okay, let us go now to the scene.

02:08:11.000 Cause maybe, you know, another set of eyes, a fresh set of eyes that hasn't been there in

02:08:15.500 that first immediate dramatic timeframe, you know, take a step back.

02:08:20.540 It's been a few days, new set of eyes comes in.

02:08:23.800 Hey, I would, I would, I would, I would recommend that.

02:08:26.320 I think that's a smart move on the Bureau's part.

02:08:28.740 Mm-hmm.

02:08:29.760 Mm-hmm.

02:08:30.280 And, and this is definitely not their first rodeo.

02:08:32.340 Like the FBI does deal with these sort of major cases all the time.

02:08:36.180 So we're glad they, that the locals have their resources and their experience to, to work off

02:08:42.020 of, all right, so between now and tomorrow morning, I, my team and I are going to work

02:08:46.380 very hard to get to the bottom of why he said at 1 47 AM on Sunday, the doorbell cam was

02:08:51.420 disconnected.

02:08:52.260 And then at 2 12 AM, the software detected a person on camera.

02:08:56.180 How, how can that be?

02:08:58.060 If the doorbell cam was disconnected, how do you get a software anything?

02:09:01.960 We shall get back to you with the answer to that.

02:09:05.040 Chad, thank you.

02:09:06.040 Thanks so much for your, your commentary or expertise.

02:09:08.820 Absolutely.

02:09:09.320 Thank you, Megan.

02:09:10.600 All right.

02:09:10.980 To be continued.

02:09:11.560 Coming up next, Kelsey Grammer makes his first appearance on the MK show.

02:09:16.060 Stay tuned for that.

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02:11:24.340 Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly.

02:11:26.400 I've got some exciting news.

02:11:28.620 I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM.

02:11:31.780 It's called the Megan Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth,

02:11:34.860 unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies.

02:11:37.760 Along with the Megan Kelly Show, you're going to hear from people like

02:11:40.180 Mark Halperin, Link Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Jashinsky, Jesse Kelly,

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02:11:49.380 Only on the Megan Kelly Channel, Sirius XM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.

02:11:53.900 Welcome back to the Megan Kelly Show.

02:12:00.340 Well, my next guest is known for playing one of the most iconic characters

02:12:04.320 in television history, and one of my favorite ever, ever throughout my entire lifetime

02:12:11.200 on any show anywhere, and that is Dr. Frazier Crane.

02:12:16.100 You're inviting me alone in this evening of devilment?

02:12:18.440 You got a credit card, don't you?

02:12:19.840 You know, I'm not so sure if it really fits in with my image, you know.

02:12:25.920 A desperately lonely character on the make?

02:12:29.240 Well, I guess I'm in.

02:12:30.420 All right.

02:12:31.560 We hear singing, and there's no one there.

02:12:36.560 Hey, guess what, everybody?

02:12:38.180 Little Frederick beat Cliff at darts.

02:12:41.460 Frazier?

02:12:42.860 Uh-oh.

02:12:43.580 Everybody have fun tonight.

02:12:47.700 Everybody wang chung tonight.

02:12:49.420 Kelsey Grammer's story goes far beyond, however, just Cheers and the even superior to Cheers

02:12:59.740 program, Frazier.

02:13:01.240 With roles in The Simpsons, X-Men, and on the Broadway stage, he's built a legendary career

02:13:06.360 across TV, film, theater.

02:13:07.760 He's got all the awards.

02:13:09.240 But behind all the success and the smile on the big screen has been devastating loss.

02:13:13.840 What many do not know about Kelsey Grammer is that his sister, Karen, was brutally murdered

02:13:21.340 when Kelsey was just 20 and she was just 18, a tragedy that shaped his life and led him

02:13:27.380 to write a deeply personal memoir published last year honoring her memory.

02:13:32.460 It's titled, Karen, A Brother Remembers.

02:13:34.620 Through the Grief, Grammer credits both faith and resilience for carrying him forward.

02:13:38.840 And now, the Emmy Award winning actor, Kelsey Grammer, joins us for his first appearance on

02:13:44.300 The Megyn Kelly Show.

02:13:45.600 Kelsey Grammer, what a pleasure.

02:13:46.940 Hi, Megyn.

02:13:47.620 How are you?

02:13:48.780 Thank you.

02:13:49.600 I'm great.

02:13:50.120 It's a pleasure to be here as well.

02:13:50.840 Thank you.

02:13:51.220 So nice to meet you.

02:13:53.500 And so my producers put together that lovely intro, not knowing that I, of course, I love

02:13:57.580 Cheers, but Frasier is literally my favorite television show to ever have aired on TV.

02:14:03.380 I have seen every episode multiple times.

02:14:06.080 I'm in love with you and the entire cast.

02:14:07.900 Thank you for that wonderful gift.

02:14:09.080 God bless you.

02:14:09.780 We were very fortunate to do a very nice show.

02:14:13.800 And I mean, yes, we are responsible for it.

02:14:16.020 And there were a lot of people that sort of came together to make it what it was.

02:14:19.420 But it was a breathtaking time in my life.

02:14:23.300 And I love that character.

02:14:24.440 I mean, the character is, you know, he's like a bauble that's just been given to the world

02:14:29.720 as he can do anything, basically, which is really fun.

02:14:33.100 Well, it's so funny.

02:14:33.900 It's one of those things where it's really fun to listen to you talk in your regular voice

02:14:37.920 because you don't sound like him at all.

02:14:40.320 You know, I mean, it's just a reminder of what a good job acting you did, hitting the

02:14:44.800 hard T's and consonants as you played the erudite.

02:14:49.220 Yes, he has good diction, certainly.

02:14:53.240 Certainly does.

02:14:54.060 Yes.

02:14:54.380 And Niles, too, is a great foil for him throughout the years.

02:14:59.080 So let's go back because I learned a lot about you in preparing for today.

02:15:02.240 Born in the Virgin Islands, which nobody was.

02:15:06.160 That's you're it.

02:15:06.800 You're the only one ever.

02:15:08.500 And then raised in New Jersey and Florida.

02:15:12.180 So, like, by the way, if that's true, those are the two best news producing states in America.

02:15:17.600 You must have had the most colorful experiences as a kid.

02:15:20.880 We did have colorful experiences.

02:15:23.080 Listen, Florida for me was an ideal place.

02:15:25.280 It was an ideal fit.

02:15:26.340 But I'll regress to Jersey in a second.

02:15:29.980 But when we moved to Florida, it was a presumptive joy for me and for Karen, for my sister.

02:15:35.480 We loved Florida.

02:15:37.160 We'd been there for Christmas a couple of times previously.

02:15:39.340 And the warmth, the sound of the palm trees, the humidity, everything just felt like a kind of a bath of sensual splendor.

02:15:49.800 I mean, we grew up in a time that was, you know, a bit repressed and a bit sort of, you know, post-50s, post-World War II.

02:15:56.780 There was still a bit of that kind of hangover.

02:15:59.120 And to go there and to live our lives going in the ocean every day and to go water skiing all the time and stuff like that was just, it was a magnificent way to grow up.

02:16:09.340 We just had the best time.

02:16:10.980 And I think that's part of why it took me so long to write the book about Karen was, I mean, I've waited for almost 50 years to write it.

02:16:19.640 It's a fascinating adjustment.

02:16:22.980 But I finally realized I wanted to say something about her.

02:16:26.720 And ostensibly there's an argument to be made that people might be interested in what the future, what the past was that, you know, brought about this creation of Frasier and my career and all that.

02:16:40.360 The early days were good.

02:16:41.520 I mean, you suffered a lot of tragedy growing up.

02:16:43.560 I didn't realize your dad was murdered.

02:16:46.560 Yeah.

02:16:46.820 And as was your sister.

02:16:50.400 And then you had two stepbrothers who died in a terrible scuba accident.

02:16:54.280 Right.

02:16:54.380 That was more of a fake thing, the diving accident with the shark.

02:16:59.040 I mean, they never found any remains of Billy.

02:17:02.940 He was lost completely.

02:17:05.400 Stevie washed up on the shore.

02:17:08.980 My God.

02:17:09.580 I mean, that's an unusually high percentage of tragedy in a young man's life.

02:17:15.620 It's a big question for a young life, yeah.

02:17:17.740 Well, I thought it was interesting.

02:17:18.960 I mean, first of all, it explained to me all the stories I saw in the 90s of your drinking problem.

02:17:23.460 And then second of all, I did think it was interesting.

02:17:27.680 You could have written about any of those experiences and made it a bestselling book.

02:17:30.660 But you must have been pretty close with your sister, Karen, to take on that particular tragedy and really deal with it.

02:17:38.060 Because, I mean, that was so brutal and so personal.

02:17:41.160 It was pretty horrible.

02:17:42.600 I wanted to – in writing the book, I wanted to – it's funny.

02:17:48.280 You know, people talk about what they've been through and then, you know, they often play like sort of a victim card.

02:17:52.740 And I know that, you know, I've certainly been accused of doing that myself, but I've done my best not to.

02:17:56.360 But in telling the tale about Karen's destruction, the last night of her life, I wanted to make sure that there was an honest uncovering of everything that happened so that people would understand it as a credential of sorts.

02:18:14.560 That when I gave out advice about how to survive such a thing, how to endure such a thing, that it would be recognized as the same kind of tragedy that others have actually endured.

02:18:24.540 I was trying to extend a hand of comfort to people who've been through similar things.

02:18:30.300 And sadly, there's a lot of people who've been through similar things.

02:18:33.380 Somebody told me a long time ago that no matter how pretty you are, so there's somebody prettier.

02:18:37.300 No matter how handsome you are, there's somebody more handsome.

02:18:39.840 There's somebody more talented.

02:18:43.580 There is always a more tragic tale.

02:18:45.660 And so I just needed to let people know that what I was coming from was a real place, a real source, so that the comfort I was hoping to offer would come from a place that seemed authentic and real and might actually bring some thoughts.

02:19:00.720 It certainly does.

02:19:02.320 Can you tell us what happened to Karen?

02:19:05.180 Karen was abducted around 12.30 in the morning outside of the Red Lobster where she worked.

02:19:12.440 She was waiting for some friends to come out, and a few hours later, she was dead.

02:19:17.960 They took her, and one of the fellas walked up to her and showed her a gun and said, you're coming with us.

02:19:27.480 And so they put her in her back seat.

02:19:29.680 They went back into the Red Lobster after that, and were going to rob the place.

02:19:33.660 And I think something about the setup of where they were in their heads, they didn't end up robbing it.

02:19:40.860 They just ended up going back out to the car, and they took Karen to one of their apartments, and that's where they raped her.

02:19:47.760 And she pleaded for her life several times.

02:19:51.900 And the account we have of what happened to her those last few hours was basically provided by a guy who was arrested in New Orleans several months after her murder, who said, I know about the girl in Colorado.

02:20:07.900 And they said, what are you talking about?

02:20:09.640 And then the police flew there, and they finally said to me, they called me a week or so later and said, we think we have the guys.

02:20:17.600 And so it was three of them.

02:20:20.900 And there was one young man there who apparently had not been part of the other killings as much, and they thought he should earn his stripes basically.

02:20:31.400 And so he was the one that put the knife in her several times.

02:20:35.900 And they left her to die by this little trailer park where I visited that spot in the book.

02:20:42.660 It's sort of a sad feeling there's a home there where I think the guy who found Karen actually still lives there, I think.

02:20:52.420 It's got a tall fence and some barbed wire on top, and it's like he didn't want to be bothered.

02:20:57.660 So, you know, he wasn't bothered.

02:20:59.880 I don't want to hurt anybody or make anybody go back and relive something.

02:21:02.640 But for me, it's been left to relive it all the time because we've had, you know, parole hearings and stuff like that, which take me back to it.

02:21:11.020 And that was – that's difficult.

02:21:14.240 But you know what?

02:21:15.100 You're working to make sure that there is no parole.

02:21:18.660 Yeah, but I just think – insult to injury is what that would amount to for me.

02:21:24.280 Well, because I read that with your dad's murder, he was shot by a man who was convicted, but then it was overturned.

02:21:33.160 Is that correct?

02:21:34.000 It was overturned because he was found insane?

02:21:36.400 He was found not guilty by reason of insanity.

02:21:39.940 The other problem is – I don't know all the particulars of it, but the rumor mill, you know, apparently there was more of a kind of an assassination thing because the tensions were running high in the Virgin Islands.

02:21:52.940 They do that all the time.

02:21:53.860 And there's a kind of an energy there that's sometimes it's like seasonally violent, and then it's kind of really placid and wonderful in the paradise you believe it is.

02:22:02.260 But a few years later, after this man, whose last name ironically is Niles, but nobody understands how that happens.

02:22:15.320 I noticed that.

02:22:16.620 It's just weird.

02:22:17.580 But apparently he was arrested again in an attempted professional hit on a judge.

02:22:29.220 So he went back to jail.

02:22:31.980 His sentence was caused out.

02:22:34.100 As they usually do.

02:22:34.800 He was sent back to jail.

02:22:36.660 Well, because when I saw it, I was – but I was thinking you must be extra determined to go to those parole hearings for your sister's killer because you've already been burned somewhat by the system.

02:22:46.740 Yeah.

02:22:46.960 And to me – I don't know, Kelsey, if you ever thought about this, but it almost seemed like – is it ironic or is it actually totally – it makes perfect sense that a guy who's been through all of that would choose a career in comedy?

02:22:58.560 Yeah, well, it does seem – but I think that's how we do it, you know, laugh at – there's a great poem by a writer named James Merrill, who – I think he taught at Yale for a while.

02:23:11.460 But he describes at one point one of the characters in the story, but it's like an epic poem, a modern epic poem.

02:23:21.420 But he describes the sound of hearing God's voice, God's song, God's song, he calls them God biology.

02:23:29.640 And the character says that it was like listening to a man on a life raft singing to keep up his nerve.

02:23:38.260 And I think that's what I am.

02:23:44.240 Well, you were on your way toward a career in the arts when Karen was killed.

02:23:49.840 You were at Juilliard at the time, right?

02:23:52.340 Well, I'd just been kicked out.

02:23:53.360 And by the way – yeah, you'd just been kicked out.

02:23:56.340 So what – how did you get – how did Kelsey Grammer get kicked out of Juilliard?

02:23:59.920 Well, you know, I look back on it, and I really think it's because I didn't go to acting class.

02:24:06.640 Oh, well, that'll do it.

02:24:08.720 It wasn't deeply personal.

02:24:10.840 I just didn't really like the guy so much, and I thought, well, I don't know if I'm learning anything from this guy, so I'd just go take a walk instead.

02:24:18.480 And that proved out – you know, proved to be sort of a bad investment of my time.

02:24:25.700 You know, it's funny because I was rejected from the Syracuse University Journalism School.

02:24:29.400 I can't imagine anyone rejecting you.

02:24:32.380 Well, I was rejected, and now I love telling that story.

02:24:36.760 But the heir to the Newhouse fortune sat next to me at an event.

02:24:42.600 It was actually an Oscars party one year, and he said, please, please stop telling people that story.

02:24:47.640 Okay.

02:24:48.240 Yeah, just cut it out.

02:24:49.240 So we got the last laugh, Kelsey.

02:24:51.460 You and I both got the last laugh.

02:24:52.640 Yeah, in the end.

02:24:53.100 So you had parents in the business, right?

02:24:55.380 Your mom, your mom in particular, was a performer?

02:24:57.780 Right.

02:24:58.080 My mom had done some summer stocks.

02:24:59.720 She met my dad at music school.

02:25:02.160 So that's really all I really know about that particular thing.

02:25:06.680 They never discussed it with me.

02:25:08.600 I didn't really know my dad very well.

02:25:10.800 And then he was in the Army for a while, and I've been told he blew taps at Arlington, so that's kind of cool.

02:25:17.760 But once he got out of the Army, he and his friend did that classic thing where you spin the globe,

02:25:22.140 and their finger landed on the Virgin Islands.

02:25:25.040 So that's how we ended up there, and my mom was pregnant.

02:25:27.980 Wow.

02:25:28.820 I was born.

02:25:30.000 That's how it started.

02:25:30.880 And along came you.

02:25:32.720 All right, so you mentioned New Jersey and Florida.

02:25:34.840 What were the ages?

02:25:35.760 I'm just curious.

02:25:36.480 Where did you come of age, Florida or New Jersey?

02:25:38.540 Jersey was 3 to 12.

02:25:41.180 Florida was 12 to 18.

02:25:43.980 That's coming of age.

02:25:45.200 So that's kind of home.

02:25:45.960 That's rock and roll.

02:25:46.620 So it also kind of explains why a man like you, who declares himself openly Republican,

02:25:51.540 would choose to live in the People's Republic of California.

02:25:54.420 You like warm weather.

02:25:55.820 I do like warm weather.

02:25:56.200 You were born in the Virgin Islands, all those years in Florida.

02:25:59.100 What else would explain it?

02:26:00.620 California.

02:26:01.140 I mean, my family is from California.

02:26:03.780 I am actually from California.

02:26:06.460 All the bones are baked here.

02:26:08.960 All the burial plots live here.

02:26:12.800 We just ended up on the East Coast after World War II because my grandfather was in the oil business for Standard Oil of California.

02:26:21.440 So he was assigned to go to New York City where he worked in the Empire State Building for several years where I would visit him.

02:26:29.600 And then he was instrumental in moving the company headquarters on the East Coast to Perth Amboy in New Jersey where my sister Karen was born.

02:26:37.680 So it all sort of ties together nicely that way.

02:26:41.200 But I always loved California.

02:26:43.600 My great-great-grandfather brought wagon trains across the country to California.

02:26:49.040 He met his wife on one of those wagon trains, and that was Cora.

02:26:52.840 And, you know, I mean, I do have a lot of information because I did that show to, you know, Who Do You Think You Are?

02:26:58.980 So I got some more input.

02:27:01.540 That's great.

02:27:01.920 Well, somehow you've made it work.

02:27:04.520 We'll get to that in a bit, your politics and your chosen state and your governor.

02:27:08.380 But we'll table it for now until we get there.

02:27:10.360 So you're making your way in the acting business.

02:27:13.180 You do some theater, as I understand.

02:27:14.900 You do some Shakespeare, which is good training for Frasier Crane.

02:27:18.620 And was Cheers your big break?

02:27:21.360 Yeah.

02:27:22.000 I mean, I did some Broadway before that.

02:27:24.640 I did Macbeth at Lincoln Center.

02:27:28.600 And I was understudying the lead at the time, an actor named Philip Anglum, who was a terrific guy and did a pretty nice job as Macbeth.

02:27:37.620 Macbeth is one of those cursed shows.

02:27:40.640 You know, you always fail in Macbeth.

02:27:42.260 I don't really know why.

02:27:43.220 But so he didn't really – he wasn't really happy about how things were received.

02:27:49.520 So I went on.

02:27:50.700 I played the role for several weeks, and he finally came back and played a few of the final closing performances.

02:27:57.500 But it was a great role for me to cut my teeth on in terms of the classics and understanding what it's like to be the center of a piece in front of a crowd that is that, you know,

02:28:06.800 educated and critical.

02:28:09.900 And so I did pretty well out of that.

02:28:11.820 And then I ended up in a production of Othello with James Earl Jones and Christopher Plummer.

02:28:18.020 That's where I became great friends with James Earl Jones.

02:28:20.260 I was recently at his memorial several months ago where they renamed a theater in his honor.

02:28:26.580 And so it's now the James Earl Jones Theater just off Broadway, which is very, very cool.

02:28:30.960 And it's very cool to have known him.

02:28:32.440 He was a miraculous actor and an even better person.

02:28:37.580 I have nothing but the highest of praise for him.

02:28:41.220 Wow.

02:28:41.720 And Christopher Plummer, too.

02:28:42.800 What a gift.

02:28:43.240 And we lost him just a couple of years ago.

02:28:44.620 Yeah.

02:28:44.680 You know, Chris was so vital.

02:28:45.720 He was an interesting fellow.

02:28:47.040 He and I did not get along so well early on, but I was a young man, you know.

02:28:50.140 You crossed Captain Von Trapp?

02:28:54.240 What were you thinking?

02:28:54.680 It did feel that way for a while, but we ended up being pretty friendly.

02:29:01.600 So you move on to Cheers and your career takes off.

02:29:05.580 It's like rocket ship.

02:29:07.060 That show is such a hit.

02:29:08.080 And it was back in the days when we were all watching the same program at night.

02:29:11.960 It wasn't as splintered as it is today.

02:29:13.600 So you become a rocket ship superstar overnight.

02:29:18.000 And is that when you would say some of these past traumas started to manifest more in your life, as happens for many people?

02:29:26.340 I mean, what happened to me was I felt guilty.

02:29:32.740 Yeah.

02:29:33.660 But I also fell in love with the idea that I could actually finally, you know, indulge myself a little bit.

02:29:38.180 I mean, I'd been living on a little more than a prayer for almost a decade where things were very hard.

02:29:47.380 I mean, I didn't buy my first new car until I was 39 years old.

02:29:51.800 I mean, this was, this was, it was time for Kels to finally explore what it was like, to be flush a little bit, to enjoy his life a little bit, to live big.

02:30:01.960 I finally got a sailboat.

02:30:03.760 There was several things that came into play that actually made my life quite worth living.

02:30:07.440 But there was a dark side of it that actually, you know, I was, I was sad.

02:30:12.240 I was sad.

02:30:12.800 And I mean, somebody said that addiction, the, the, the major cause of addiction is unresolved grief.

02:30:21.600 And I think that probably fueled mine.

02:30:24.040 I mean, it certainly wasn't trying to kill myself or anything.

02:30:25.960 People have asked that question.

02:30:28.340 I'm, you know, I'm writing another book now about myself, which is actually, I'm about a hundred pages into it at this point.

02:30:36.120 But how are you liking yourself?

02:30:38.500 I'm okay.

02:30:41.720 Good.

02:30:42.520 It was, it was great to let go of some of the stuff about Karen without, you know, dishonoring her.

02:30:47.660 I always felt guilty that she didn't have the life I had, but she was along for the ride in a lot of ways.

02:30:53.360 So it was great for me to have a chance to introduce her to people in the book.

02:30:57.280 And then, and then one of my great friends, first, one of the first people who read what I had written so far, I haven't edited since his reading of it.

02:31:05.000 But he said, I feel like I know your sister now.

02:31:07.500 And that was all I wanted.

02:31:10.840 That's exactly it.

02:31:11.720 So you've done her a great tribute because you've kept her alive for all of us.

02:31:14.500 Now, now I know her and your friend knows her and so many millions of others know her, which is, you know, I think when you lose somebody, that's really one of your main worries.

02:31:22.920 You want the world to know them.

02:31:24.860 I know a lot of dear friends who have, who have suffered major loss and they repeat that.

02:31:29.120 So you did honor her with this, with this book about her and, and maybe, I don't know, did it take you to a place where you feel healed or more healed than you were?

02:31:42.720 It is.

02:31:43.480 I think I said in the book, I will still weep buckets, but yes, there is a sense of, um, I can claim my life now without feeling guilty about it.

02:31:56.760 And that was a, that was a real blessing for me.

02:32:01.900 The survivor's guilt makes no sense.

02:32:04.080 You know, it makes absolutely no sense, but it is a real thing.

02:32:07.020 I've talked to so many people who deal with it.

02:32:08.820 There you are.

02:32:09.340 And, uh, yeah, it can drive you to drink.

02:32:11.280 It can drive you to do all sorts of things.

02:32:12.880 A lot of people go to Hollywood and become big stars and do those things just because they want to anyway.

02:32:16.760 But you had a few good reasons.

02:32:18.380 Robin used to say, he used to say, you know, cocaine is God's way of saying you're making too much money.

02:32:22.500 And so, I mean, it is kind of interesting.

02:32:27.540 This year I had the pleasure of getting to know and befriend Charlie Sheen.

02:32:30.580 So I've been spending a lot of time thinking about some of this.

02:32:34.140 How, how were you able to function at such a high level while drinking so much and doing so many drugs?

02:32:40.060 Well, I've got a good brain and I always knew when to pull it back.

02:32:43.920 I always knew when to stop, honestly.

02:32:45.700 I mean, there were moments when, you know, I looked pretty beat up, but I could always, you know, kind of pull myself together enough to, you know, have a semblance of acumen and talent and performance.

02:32:56.940 So it was never that far out of my reach.

02:33:00.160 So, and I, and I, it's sort of like I've raced cars a little bit, you know, a long time ago.

02:33:05.760 You have?

02:33:06.580 Yeah, but the thing that I didn't do was I didn't go to the place where I knew I wasn't safe.

02:33:12.180 And I think that was an indication of who I actually, I always knew that I was able to put it down.

02:33:21.060 There was a moment when I'd said, okay, that's enough now.

02:33:24.100 Go get some rest.

02:33:25.860 Was, was there someone like who you worked with either on the cheers?

02:33:29.920 I think this is mostly during the cheers years.

02:33:32.300 Yeah.

02:33:32.800 Well, there was a, there was a, there was a real section during Frasier when I needed to take some time off.

02:33:38.280 That was when it kind of really came to a head because I mean, suddenly I was making an extraordinary amount of money and I still felt like I needed to apologize for that on some level.

02:33:49.380 And of course, the world around us says you need to apologize for being successful, which seems absolutely ridiculous as America, for God's sakes, which may, may explain point towards some of my politics.

02:33:59.980 We need not be embarrassed by success.

02:34:02.280 We need not be shamed.

02:34:03.760 No.

02:34:03.900 And it seems that we like winning on the right side.

02:34:06.640 Yeah.

02:34:07.040 Yeah.

02:34:07.360 It's, it seems that's, that's sort of what's going on.

02:34:11.180 But I'm trying to get back to my thread.

02:34:14.880 Well, was there some, I was going to ask you, was there somebody who was able to reach you at all?

02:34:19.380 Or somebody who really pushed you to put it down?

02:34:21.820 Yeah.

02:34:21.980 The folks at cheers said, you know, look, it's time to kind of, you know, step away from it.

02:34:25.380 And I said, okay.

02:34:26.660 We did that for a while.

02:34:27.680 And, uh, had a few good years of clean living.

02:34:32.160 Well, not exactly clean, but, you know, clean, clean ish living and, uh, a couple of, you know, messed up relationships, but a couple of good ones.

02:34:39.980 So, you know, there were some decent people around.

02:34:42.620 Um, I, I liked, and I still like, uh, interaction with people.

02:34:48.280 And that's the greatest source for me of all experiences is just, is the fact that, you know, people and, and watch them.

02:34:54.380 And that, that's where I did my training.

02:34:56.860 My training actually has just been in, you know, observing the human condition and the way people behave.

02:35:01.460 Yep.

02:35:01.760 And that's, that's what you have.

02:35:03.320 Great actors and great writers.

02:35:04.600 Yeah.

02:35:05.000 And great writers.

02:35:06.020 Same thing.

02:35:06.540 Good.

02:35:06.760 Yeah.

02:35:07.600 So did you ever have a tawdry love affair with, uh, Shelley Long or Kirstie Alley or, um, B.B. Neuwirth?

02:35:14.920 Come on, spill the tea.

02:35:16.520 No, you know what?

02:35:17.320 It's, it's, it's never really a good idea to have tawdry love affair with people you're working with.

02:35:23.660 No, it's not a good idea, but that's not a denial.

02:35:26.260 Yeah.

02:35:26.640 It's not a denial.

02:35:27.700 But no, I never did.

02:35:28.960 No.

02:35:29.060 Um, it's funny.

02:35:31.800 I didn't get to know Shelley very well because she left really after I got to the show a couple of years later.

02:35:37.200 She went off after the fifth season and, uh, that's when Kirstie came on the show.

02:35:42.700 And that's when I realized when, when Kirstie made her first appearance in the show and I was watching, I thought to myself,

02:35:46.560 boy, this, this show is going to be successful for a while.

02:35:49.540 She's great.

02:35:50.540 And I got to know her pretty well.

02:35:52.080 And I always loved Kirstie.

02:35:53.640 I think she's one of the funniest people that ever lived.

02:35:55.320 I was devastated by her, by her premature demise.

02:35:59.740 You know, I mean, just for her to go the way she went, it just was like, oh, come on.

02:36:04.060 She was such a light.

02:36:05.560 And, you know, and she was, um, she was a kind of ecstatic person.

02:36:11.240 She would live in a silliness about her.

02:36:14.240 I mean, she, she did that.

02:36:15.840 I don't know if this would ever go anywhere anymore.

02:36:19.180 But at one point she stood all the men on chairs up against the bar and she said, I'm going to guess which of you has the biggest package.

02:36:28.240 But she was unflappable.

02:36:30.060 And of course we all, you know, you know, said, okay, well, what the heck.

02:36:33.840 It's just, it was a different time though.

02:36:36.220 Which either makes you feel really, really proud or really nervous.

02:36:39.780 Depending on what category you're in.

02:36:42.100 That eye looking sort of askance at you.

02:36:44.100 But she was a riot and she was, uh, it was always in good fun.

02:36:49.680 She was celebratory and fun.

02:36:51.240 And, uh, you know, there were, she went up and down and, you know, it was, but always funny.

02:36:56.560 It was Kirstie who told me that, uh, when you go on like a show like Carson or something like that.

02:37:01.380 And of course I, I, I missed Carson.

02:37:03.580 Jalen, it was his first year and I thought, okay, but, um, uh, she said, just make up somebody, pretend you're somebody else.

02:37:11.900 Kirstie.

02:37:12.340 I said, that's exhausting.

02:37:14.600 No, I'll never, I'll never be able to keep track for one thing.

02:37:17.240 So.

02:37:18.000 I think she gave that same advice to Brian Williams of NBC news.

02:37:21.300 Now we come back to haunt him.

02:37:24.060 In the end.

02:37:25.360 No.

02:37:25.720 I'm going to bet him on the, uh.

02:37:29.240 Sure did.

02:37:30.240 Um, so then you wind up doing the spinoff of Cheers, which is Frazier, which is, I mean, just as big, if not bigger, a hit.

02:37:37.600 Ran for the same, another decade.

02:37:39.360 And the re one of the reasons why I'm so surprised to learn that you love race cars is because my favorite episode of Frazier, it is the one I've mentioned it on the show multiple times.

02:37:49.080 And my whole family can recite it start to finish is, um, you and your brother Niles, who are these, you know, very uptight, priggish, socialite men, both psychiatrists.

02:38:02.640 Um, not men's men at all, much to the chagrin of their man's man father, decide you have to go to auto mechanic class.

02:38:11.200 Oh, I saw that show the other day.

02:38:14.600 It's the greatest.

02:38:15.760 I had my team pull a small clip for the audience that hasn't seen it.

02:38:19.300 Here's just a tad.

02:38:21.860 No one else wore them in gym class either, but then Tommy Fritz scratched his cornea and then they were mandatory.

02:38:25.720 Give me that wrench.

02:38:28.080 Give me that wrench.

02:38:33.240 I'm telling you, I'm telling you, it's on too tight.

02:38:35.240 Here, I'll just try to loosen it up.

02:38:37.660 Whoa.

02:38:38.840 Whoa.

02:38:39.980 Remember, uh, spark plugs come out with a simple twist and pull.

02:38:43.480 Twist and pull.

02:38:44.660 Give it a try.

02:38:47.160 Mm-hmm.

02:38:49.920 Oh.

02:38:50.740 Okay, uh, that's called stripping it.

02:38:52.920 Wow.

02:38:55.360 Good job, Frasier.

02:38:56.120 Here, let me strip one.

02:38:56.800 No, no.

02:38:59.360 Stripping it means breaking it.

02:39:01.300 Uh, watch me.

02:39:06.400 Wow.

02:39:08.920 So you twist and then pull.

02:39:14.720 You see, I was twisting and pulling simultaneously.

02:39:17.120 As per your instructions, twist and pull.

02:39:19.900 In the future, the phrase twist then pull might help.

02:39:26.900 Look, fellas, maybe that's enough for one night, but why don't you come in a little early next week and I'll try to get you caught up to everyone else.

02:39:34.280 I've got a feeling you guys are going to be my special project.

02:39:40.740 And then you realize you were the remedial students.

02:39:43.540 Yes, that was a nightmare.

02:39:44.800 Which was unusual.

02:39:45.200 Yeah, for those boys, it was not a good thing to be the remedial students.

02:39:49.120 I love that guy.

02:39:50.060 So, but that was real acting because do you know your way around an engine?

02:39:53.540 Well, actually, I do.

02:39:56.640 This was one of my come-to-Jesus moments in my career when I realized as I was changing my own oil after I was on television, I thought to myself, you know what?

02:40:04.480 There are people who make their living doing this.

02:40:06.520 I'm depriving them of their living while I'm making mine.

02:40:09.920 So, I started thinking I should get my oil changed by a professional.

02:40:14.980 That is exactly the storyline of the auto mechanic episode where the two guys eventually realized that they're stealing jobs from very good auto mechanics and really should leave this class ASAP.

02:40:26.940 Yeah, you know, I really, it was a real thing for me because I always, I grew up looking out for my mom's cars, my grandmother's cars.

02:40:35.800 I'd always change the oil, change the plugs, sometimes set the timing.

02:40:38.880 You know, there was different things.

02:40:39.600 You set the gap on the plug.

02:40:40.860 There's all sorts of stuff we used to do that you don't have to do anymore because we had carburetors then.

02:40:46.980 You know, now it's fuel injection.

02:40:48.600 And I...

02:40:51.640 Yeah, you're not, you're speaking Greek to me.

02:40:54.080 Yeah, okay.

02:40:54.340 I don't even know if the engine of my car is in the front or the back.

02:40:57.140 I was very proud to do them and look after things in the house.

02:40:59.820 It was my job.

02:41:00.620 I was the man of the family, you know.

02:41:02.240 And so, it just carried on into my life a bit longer than maybe most of them.

02:41:08.800 So, did you maintain a friendship with David Hyde Pierce who played Niles or no?

02:41:12.600 We were still friends, yeah.

02:41:14.000 Yeah, it's a good relationship.

02:41:15.940 David was in New York.

02:41:19.160 He's sort of become the maven of, you know, Broadway theater.

02:41:23.680 Yeah, I've seen him.

02:41:24.840 I've stayed over here on the West Coast.

02:41:27.840 But, you know, I've gone over to New York once in a while.

02:41:31.100 I did a movie with Charles Durning several years back, a couple of decades now, I guess.

02:41:36.160 But I said, what do you like to do to keep, you know, things sharp, keep things focused?

02:41:41.380 He said, well, I try to do a play every year for at least six weeks.

02:41:44.340 You know, it's like you do an out-of-town play somewhere.

02:41:47.880 You'd probably take off a month or two to keep the engine running, you know, to keep the senses honed.

02:41:54.340 And I thought, well, every year is going to be too hard to manage for me.

02:41:58.780 I have too many responsibilities.

02:42:00.180 But I did try to do every five years.

02:42:04.580 And I think I've kind of stuck with that.

02:42:06.520 I'm a little late right now, this little phase in my life.

02:42:09.680 I think it's about time for me to go do a play again.

02:42:12.100 But we'll see.

02:42:13.960 I don't know what it's going to be.

02:42:15.180 It always seems exciting.

02:42:16.220 I mean, I can't imagine standing up there and just hearing those applause from a live audience night after night after night.

02:42:20.920 But on the other hand, at what point do you get sick of doing the exact same routine night?

02:42:28.240 Does that ever seep in, especially as somebody who doesn't normally spend his acting career doing that?

02:42:33.120 Yeah.

02:42:35.000 There was an actor named Michael Goff.

02:42:37.820 I think he played Alfred in the first Batman which Jack Nicholson was in.

02:42:45.480 I think he played the butler, you know, and he's a wonderful guy.

02:42:49.560 And at one point he was in a conversation with me.

02:42:53.820 Maybe we were at Charlie's or something, you know, having an after-theater drink.

02:42:59.020 And he said, oh, don't you love long runs?

02:43:04.140 And I thought to myself, well, not really.

02:43:07.340 But it was his insistence that a long run was a glorious thing to be involved in that I started to try to dissect what he was thinking about and to appreciate it.

02:43:20.740 And so the next time I was in a long run was actually doing Othello.

02:43:27.000 And so we ran for a year doing that.

02:43:29.140 I was in it for a year.

02:43:30.840 And I started to allow myself to understand what that meant.

02:43:35.380 But it has to be a great play, like a Shakespeare play.

02:43:40.200 That language is just so much more excellent than most others.

02:43:48.960 Most other plays really do not match up.

02:43:51.600 I mean, you can try to do Eugene O'Neill for, you know, six months and you're just going to drive yourself into the ground with it.

02:43:57.880 He's a lovely writer.

02:43:59.220 It's just not the same kind of experience.

02:44:02.640 There's a connection to life, a sort of a universal life that Shakespeare just is.

02:44:08.020 I believe there was a book written about him called The Invention of the Human, which is basically lays at Shakespeare's feet the creation of all our language, of how we communicate with one another.

02:44:20.760 And, yeah, it's only four, almost 500 years ago.

02:44:23.920 But that language, when you're on stage, you'll be in the midst of a scene you've done a dozen times or a hundred times and suddenly hear something you've never heard before.

02:44:35.580 And that's the beauty of the long run.

02:44:39.140 I can see it.

02:44:40.200 Yeah.

02:44:40.480 Now that you walk me through it, poor Eugene O'Neill took a beating there.

02:44:43.640 I didn't mean to beat him up.

02:44:44.600 I can see it.

02:44:45.160 He's kind of lovely in a way.

02:44:46.740 It's a bit self-conscious, isn't it?

02:44:48.860 Yes.

02:44:50.900 Well, now, the thing is, I mean, I go to Broadway all the time.

02:44:54.600 We love Broadway.

02:44:55.360 We're constantly there.

02:44:56.320 But it's gotten very woke.

02:45:00.180 And, you know, we went to see, we saw Macbeth.

02:45:06.120 And it was starring Daniel Craig.

02:45:07.880 And, Kelsey, they had the king's son was played by a girl, a woman, who had a blue mohawk.

02:45:16.920 Okay?

02:45:17.340 So, we're trying to buy this, like, okay, 14th or 15th century Scotland character with a blue mohawk.

02:45:24.480 And it's supposed to be a man, but it's being played by a woman.

02:45:27.360 There was a character.

02:45:28.500 It was a minority-majority cast, which is not at all representative of this time in Scotland either.

02:45:33.840 There was a guy in a wheelchair playing a part.

02:45:36.300 It was like, okay, I appreciate the handicap getting roles, but, like, that doesn't work for this time frame either.

02:45:41.540 And no one wore a costume.

02:45:43.400 Like, the king's son was wearing a T-shirt, like a Stones, a Rolling Stones T-shirt.

02:45:48.260 I'm like, what is this?

02:45:49.900 You tell me, what is that?

02:45:50.900 The good news is that Shakespeare can survive all of that.

02:45:54.860 His language is that good that you can actually try to put as many overlays on it, and the play's still going to work.

02:46:00.980 That's extraordinary.

02:46:02.000 Somebody, somebody, a very wise person once told me, they said, I've seen good actors enhance a poor play, but I've never seen bad actors ruin Shakespeare.

02:46:15.560 So maybe these, maybe some of these productions are, oh, misguided or way too informed with our, with current trends.

02:46:26.000 The good news is that it's a play.

02:46:27.760 It doesn't last forever.

02:46:28.740 No one, thank God, is going to film it.

02:46:31.880 And you will not end up, you know, printing that impression of Macbeth on too many people, although it's clearly caused you some strife.

02:46:41.920 But I apologize for my fellow team.

02:46:43.940 Have you ever had to act across from one of these super woke people?

02:46:47.800 Like, honestly, like, I highly recommend you not take a role across from Patti LuPone.

02:46:52.220 I beg of you.

02:46:52.820 Well, you know, Patti did my show.

02:46:53.680 Don't do it.

02:46:54.180 Years ago.

02:46:55.060 She's just gotten, she's gone down that, that, that lane.

02:46:58.760 And, you know, I think it's, how do you explain it?

02:47:03.840 It's, I love people of great passion and short-sightedness.

02:47:10.340 There's, you know, it's myopia, if you want, or myopic in its way, nearsighted, short-sightedness.

02:47:16.900 There's no real long game in it because it doesn't really have human value.

02:47:21.900 It has exaggerated value.

02:47:27.580 It's like you, you know, in Alcoholics Anonymous, they talk about how you can raise your bottom, meaning you don't have to completely bottom out.

02:47:35.700 You don't have to end up, you know, sleeping on the street to realize, oh, this is now a problem.

02:47:39.560 Well, in this case, they've raised a level of a perceived injustice or a perceived need in their society to a place where it actually is discordant.

02:47:53.520 It doesn't necessarily equate to human necessity or human value.

02:47:59.340 It doesn't necessarily make the world better.

02:48:01.580 It makes us more strident and less tolerant.

02:48:05.180 And certainly, if we believe in tolerance, then you don't need to be yelling and screaming about whether or not a person with a mohawk deserves the same degree of attention or to be taken as seriously as someone who is wearing a suit.

02:48:19.220 I mean, you can elevate so many things to a pinnacle of meaning that are pretty much not very important.

02:48:29.860 So this is your diagnosis of wokeness, of what the woke do?

02:48:32.600 The woke thing is really, it's a manufactured outrage that has been used as a lever for political change when it's probably not, it probably doesn't have the teeth for that.

02:48:47.220 It probably doesn't have the chops to make it all the way to, oh, we have to define our lives by this.

02:48:51.940 For instance, we have a lot of people in theater now who say if you're not gay or trans or whatever, you can never play a gay person.

02:48:59.340 Well, that would be like, how many times do we have to play, how many straight men do we have to have in the theater to allow us to have straight relationships?

02:49:10.740 Certainly, at least in the play itself, in the world of the play, a man and a woman are married, a lot of people doing those roles, that's not the case.

02:49:19.440 But it is acting.

02:49:21.920 And we've now entered a world where people say you have to be the person in order to play the person.

02:49:26.800 So unfortunately, there will be no more acting careers because you'll just play it who you are.

02:49:32.720 I'm not going to do that.

02:49:33.980 There was a movie coming out, I don't know, eight years ago about a trans person and Scarlett Johansson was supposed to star and it got killed because she's not trans.

02:49:41.800 It's ridiculous to think that a person can't play a trans person.

02:49:46.160 Surely we could understand it.

02:49:47.160 Yeah, I mean, you're actors.

02:49:47.940 Maybe we don't place the same value on it as having, you know, your mother marry your father's brother or something like that.

02:49:58.080 That's Hamlet.

02:50:00.400 I mean, we don't.

02:50:01.960 I thought we were talking about Ilhan Omar.

02:50:03.540 It's a great poem by Carl Sandberg.

02:50:04.320 I was like, you're close.

02:50:05.160 You almost had it.

02:50:06.060 Yeah, and he says they all want to play Hamlet.

02:50:10.380 They haven't exactly seen their mothers, you know, messing around with their father's brother.

02:50:14.380 They haven't actually seen their father murdered.

02:50:16.200 They haven't exactly, you know, gone to a place where you're trying to stab your best friend with a sword.

02:50:24.480 And yet they all want to play Hamlet.

02:50:27.240 Our creative imagination is what draws us into being actors.

02:50:29.880 It's not the fact that we are actually gay or straight or anything else or married or fake.

02:50:34.300 Or a Harvard-educated psychiatrist.

02:50:36.340 We can play anything that's part of the human experience because that's what we're good at.

02:50:42.420 It's okay to be there.

02:50:43.560 So I think everybody agrees with that.

02:50:46.180 They just pretend not to, to get themselves some sort of social clicks.

02:50:49.740 But you've been kind of outspoken.

02:50:51.840 My team found a clip of you speaking of you going on Leno from 2012 talking about being an out Republican.

02:50:59.040 Now, that's bold.

02:51:00.940 2012.

02:51:01.620 Like, wow, you came out with it pretty early.

02:51:03.180 I wasn't really on.

02:51:03.980 You were already a big star.

02:51:05.940 But why, why be so open about it?

02:51:07.820 Because virtually every Republican I know in Hollywood just calls themselves an independent.

02:51:11.960 Yeah, that's why it's so popular now.

02:51:14.080 So there's a lot of people that are popularly, oh, I'm an independent.

02:51:18.000 Okay, well, fine.

02:51:18.920 So thank God you make some sense once in a while.

02:51:20.980 But I'm a little more outspoken about it.

02:51:23.940 I just think it's sort of exhausting to be so up in arms about every single issue that comes down the pike.

02:51:30.020 It is not wise, I think, to take anything but a longer view of things, to have a little bit of perspective and to stand back from issues that seem important in that day or in that moment.

02:51:46.300 And realize that, yeah, that's the currency of political discourse, I guess.

02:51:52.720 And of trying to win elections or not win elections or destroy your opponents.

02:51:59.080 I mean, we live in America.

02:52:00.840 We're all Americans.

02:52:01.820 We need to remember that.

02:52:03.580 And at least I believe we need to remember that.

02:52:06.460 And that my fellow American is not my enemy.

02:52:09.060 No, that goes back to my Christian lens that I put on things, which is, you know, love thy enemy as thyself.

02:52:15.500 Do unto others as you don't have others do unto you.

02:52:19.220 These are things that still are important to me.

02:52:21.620 And so that's why I think I probably outed myself a long time ago.

02:52:26.020 In retrospect, and this is a current topic, it did relegate me to the fringes of society in Hollywood.

02:52:37.360 And so I may have had my peccadilloes, as they say, but I was never part of the dungeon crowd, the stuff I've heard about.

02:52:49.620 I'm not in that world.

02:52:51.540 And so the world that...

02:52:53.360 How did it relegate you to the fringes?

02:52:55.300 Oh, well, I wasn't invited to those parties.

02:52:58.860 Oh, I'm glad I wasn't.

02:53:02.520 Yeah, exactly.

02:53:03.860 Speaking of raising the bottom, you don't want to go to those parties at all.

02:53:09.280 I've heard about what goes on there.

02:53:10.480 Well, that's what I heard about it.

02:53:12.060 A few years ago, I was on a flight with a fairly famous actor who shared some stuff with me that I thought, holy moly, this actually goes on in Hollywood.

02:53:22.940 And he was a participant and a fairly knowledgeable fellow.

02:53:27.280 And I thought, my goodness, I really dodged a bullet there.

02:53:30.580 Are we talking about sex stuff or drug stuff?

02:53:34.420 Sex slash just all of it.

02:53:36.420 All the stuff you see sort of...

02:53:37.780 Let me tell you something.

02:53:39.480 News 2.

02:53:40.600 News 2.

02:53:41.560 I could tell you some stories, not involving yours truly, but with some people in news that would make your eyes roll in the back of your head.

02:53:48.360 People who are on the air right now posing as very severe news anchors have a whole different side to them.

02:53:56.180 I do love that you have that information.

02:53:57.980 But like you, I don't go to those parties.

02:54:03.080 I stay home with my husband.

02:54:04.820 Yeah, I think that's...

02:54:05.580 And speaking of the spouse, why did I watch you for a good year, maybe more, on The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills?

02:54:15.080 There you were.

02:54:16.640 You know, I don't really talk about that part of my life very much anymore.

02:54:20.140 There's a couple of wonderful children I have as a result.

02:54:22.480 I don't throw any daggers or knives or anything else.

02:54:27.060 That's a part of my past.

02:54:29.120 And I was not going to survive.

02:54:33.000 So I'm glad we went to a different place.

02:54:36.960 You found a way out of that.

02:54:40.100 But it was fascinating to watch.

02:54:41.460 It was a window into your beautiful home and your life.

02:54:44.140 It was a window through some, but it wasn't a clear glass, let's say.

02:54:50.860 But that's the nature of those shows.

02:54:52.560 You know they're not real.

02:54:53.700 So you kind of accept that this is just all, you know, high dudgeon.

02:54:58.640 Yeah, that's right.

02:55:01.600 But you now have eight children, right?

02:55:04.100 Eight kids?

02:55:05.300 And are any of them in the business or have the taste for it or not?

02:55:08.340 Well, they're all sort of business adjacent.

02:55:10.120 My eldest daughter, Spencer, is an actress and has had, you know, a substantial career.

02:55:17.160 She's done really well.

02:55:18.100 And she's currently on Rick and Morty.

02:55:22.580 So she's one of the voices in Rick and Morty, and she does really well.

02:55:25.080 And that's been over a decade, I think, that she's been on that.

02:55:28.300 And that's given her some independence and some wealth, you know, certainly enough to manage having a home and stuff like that.

02:55:35.100 She has a wonderful son.

02:55:36.200 So I have a grandson named Emmett, who's a terrific kid.

02:55:40.380 And we don't see each other as much as I'd like to.

02:55:43.100 But I do see them out to, you know, to know there's a relationship there.

02:55:47.560 My next daughter, Greer, is she's doing pretty well.

02:55:53.700 She's an actress.

02:55:54.380 She's very interested in it.

02:55:56.760 We spend quite a bit of time together, and then we'll spend, you know, a year without seeing each other at all.

02:56:01.600 But there is still a real love there.

02:56:04.200 And a love that actually, you know, took us a little time to figure out, to get, to identify, because it wasn't in her life, really, when she was younger.

02:56:14.140 And there's Mason and Jude.

02:56:16.020 Jude, that's from the previous show.

02:56:21.240 The real housewife.

02:56:24.040 Yes.

02:56:24.180 So she's, but I see them quite a bit.

02:56:28.240 Jude's off in school, and Mason's now been in California.

02:56:31.120 She's got a boyfriend.

02:56:31.920 And she tends to live with her mom most of the time, but I don't really ask any questions.

02:56:35.740 Okay.

02:56:37.960 That's probably, that's the safest way sometimes.

02:56:40.700 Exactly.

02:56:41.400 It's not part of my life.

02:56:42.860 So I'm actually gratefully removed from it.

02:56:47.280 But the life I live now with Kate is a magnificent life.

02:56:53.760 And we just had a baby.

02:56:56.000 She's an extraordinary mom.

02:56:59.240 Our little boy just turned four months old yesterday on her mom's birthday yesterday.

02:57:09.520 How long have you and Kate been together?

02:57:11.680 We've been together 16 years.

02:57:15.500 Wow.

02:57:15.900 It doesn't seem possible, does it?

02:57:17.800 It's like, you go, what?

02:57:18.960 No.

02:57:19.320 I feel like I was watching you on that show five years ago, but I guess it was longer.

02:57:23.240 Our 15th anniversary.

02:57:25.380 Time then.

02:57:25.920 Now, is she a Republican?

02:57:27.960 She's English.

02:57:29.520 So she's not particularly anything.

02:57:33.200 Okay.

02:57:33.880 She's more, she's sort of apolitical.

02:57:36.600 She doesn't really care for it.

02:57:38.120 That's good.

02:57:38.840 She's very funny about California.

02:57:42.040 I mean, you know, we have, you know, we have, there's people who wear their views on their sleeve here that just, it is kind of just tiresome after a while.

02:57:49.380 Or on their mask.

02:57:50.400 I can't be assaulted by some human being who doesn't seem to have any real deep thought going on.

02:57:56.340 They're just parroting things.

02:57:58.100 And you think, I don't know.

02:57:59.280 But you're in trouble now.

02:58:00.440 You're in trouble.

02:58:00.860 Because it's one thing to be a Republican in 2012, but it's quite another to be a Trump supporter, which you've outed yourself as.

02:58:05.940 I mean, now that may be the most dangerous thing you've done in your life.

02:58:09.920 Well, you know what?

02:58:11.660 It's never cost me, it's never cost me opportunity.

02:58:17.420 It has probably cost me some jobs, but.

02:58:22.060 Has it cost you any friends?

02:58:24.420 One.

02:58:25.580 One that I know of.

02:58:26.740 It was more of a recent friend who looks through the darkness of, well, whatever assumptions are made.

02:58:33.780 Is it Bryan Cranston?

02:58:34.800 No, it's not.

02:58:35.940 No.

02:58:37.560 Okay.

02:58:38.300 I know.

02:58:38.880 He's abandoning everybody who's right of center.

02:58:41.000 Well, you know, I've heard that from some people, too.

02:58:43.160 But, you know, I like to live where I can live.

02:58:45.540 You know, and I would not actually be able to tolerate living on that side of the line.

02:58:49.760 So it's okay.

02:58:51.120 We all have our own.

02:58:54.720 Well, how do you think Trump's doing?

02:58:56.600 I think he's doing really well.

02:58:58.440 I think he's, you know, it's annoying to a lot of people.

02:59:01.040 I think he's doing a wonderful job.

02:59:02.800 He is.

02:59:03.480 There's a phrase in Shakespeare.

02:59:06.740 He puts transgression to it.

02:59:09.300 It's not popular sometimes, but the man speaks his mind, and you know where he stands.

02:59:15.240 And I've never seen a more transparent presidency in my life.

02:59:18.300 I mean, he talks every day to the press.

02:59:22.160 Some people don't like it.

02:59:23.160 I don't know why they don't like it, because we spent years, you know, hearing from the previous guy two or three times.

02:59:30.720 And that was always just like, yeah, if you don't like gun rights being taken away from you, go find an F-15 and see if you can beat us.

02:59:37.320 You know, it's like a belligerence that was seen to come from a very weak position.

02:59:44.000 So you're feeling good.

02:59:47.800 And how are you thinking about the next election, if at all?

02:59:50.860 Like in 28, is there somebody you like right now?

02:59:53.560 Well, I mean, the House may change, but the presidency won't, and the Senate won't.

02:59:58.800 So, you know, it might change, it might not.

03:00:00.920 Who knows?

03:00:02.340 Well, I meant the presidential election.

03:00:04.560 You have an early favorite, J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio.

03:00:07.660 Well, I actually like both of them.

03:00:09.600 I think there's a pretty deep bench.

03:00:11.540 I think there's a lot of people who actually would be pretty extraordinary on that side.

03:00:15.260 There's a couple of people on the left that are fairly interesting.

03:00:18.800 I think they have to abandon this idea of, like, supporting criminals and saying you have to.

03:00:23.680 I was really surprised that Kamala Harris supported the idea of bailing out people who were clearly rioting.

03:00:32.900 I thought that was a little odd.

03:00:34.760 I don't think that holds up.

03:00:36.180 Yeah.

03:00:36.280 I mean, we're doing the same thing, you know, now.

03:00:38.640 But it was political seasons.

03:00:40.240 Political seasons are like this.

03:00:41.360 You go back to Mitt Romney and Barack Obama.

03:00:44.700 I mean, they were staging stuff outside of Wall Street.

03:00:47.180 Remember that?

03:00:48.380 There was like, you know, and everybody was up in arms and going on the screen.

03:00:51.500 I mean, you're from California, though.

03:00:52.900 So, like, now it's kind of shaping up to be possibly Gavin Newsom versus maybe a J.D. Vance.

03:00:58.720 I mean, is there any world in which you could get behind your current governor?

03:01:02.520 No.

03:01:03.660 No, Gavin Newsom.

03:01:04.520 Look, as I said, I'm from California.

03:01:07.580 I mean, I really am from California.

03:01:08.800 My grandfather told me stories of fighting fires outside of Fresno where he was born.

03:01:14.380 Black Mountain Ranch is where he was born in the Kettleman Hills.

03:01:19.040 And when he was 14, he was part of a volunteer group that fought fires.

03:01:23.520 He said it was the only thing that really scared him.

03:01:25.540 And he served in Guadalcanal for two years.

03:01:29.100 This was a man of incredible courage.

03:01:31.380 But you live in California, you know there are fires here.

03:01:33.840 The abject failure of Gavin Newsom in his role as a governor indicts him to the point where there's no way he can be taken seriously as a candidate.

03:01:44.600 I don't think even most Democrats take him seriously as the next possible presidential VP.

03:01:50.840 He can, you know, he can lob grenades.

03:01:52.740 He's great at doing that.

03:01:53.680 He's very good at talking for about four hours and still saying nothing.

03:01:57.840 I mean, you know, politicians have a certain gift that way.

03:02:00.680 I call it the balancing subterfuge of political doublespeak.

03:02:05.320 He's really good at it.

03:02:06.600 Because, I mean, honestly, I've heard that guy talk for over four or five years and I still don't know what he says.

03:02:11.320 I just know that it's garbage.

03:02:13.580 And I have no particular state.

03:02:15.440 He doesn't actually sit still.

03:02:16.800 No.

03:02:17.040 He's got very weird jerky jerky body movements.

03:02:19.580 There's some sort of self-soothing issue in there.

03:02:20.960 You know, when he was rocking back and forth.

03:02:21.960 Yes, there's a self-soothing.

03:02:23.060 LA 2.0 or whatever.

03:02:24.440 It just, it was a monumental masterpiece of malfeasance.

03:02:33.800 Yeah.

03:02:34.460 And people are still not recovered from it.

03:02:36.520 I think.

03:02:37.100 Kelsey, I'd love to continue this.

03:02:38.760 When the race is on, please come back and we will analyze all aspects of Gavin versus, or Kamala, both California people versus anybody on the right.

03:02:48.660 Because it's going to be a fun contest to watch.

03:02:50.560 Thanks so much for coming on.

03:02:51.720 It's been delightful to be with you.

03:02:52.040 Thank you so much.

03:02:52.880 Oh, the pleasure was all mine.

03:02:56.420 Thank you.

03:02:57.140 Thank you so much, Kelsey Grammer.

03:02:58.860 Check out his book about his sister, Karen.

03:03:01.180 It really is powerful and very open.

03:03:04.260 I mean, not every star as big as Kelsey Grammer will share with you this kind of story.

03:03:11.900 And it's called Karen, A Brother Remembers.

03:03:14.200 And it's a deeply personal memoir of what happened to his sister.

03:03:17.860 And you learn a lot about him.

03:03:19.180 And what a charmer, right?

03:03:20.280 And what a brave guy to come out with all of that in today's day and age in Hollywood.

03:03:25.180 We need millions more just like him.

03:03:26.960 Okay.

03:03:27.500 We will be back tomorrow.

03:03:29.100 Thank you for listening.

03:03:29.780 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

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03:03:36.180 The Megyn Kelly Show.

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03:04:11.820 Investing is all about the future.

03:04:14.480 So what do you think is going to happen?

03:04:16.400 Bitcoin is sort of inevitable at this point.

03:04:18.920 I think it would come down to precious metals.

03:04:21.500 I hope we don't go cashless.

03:04:23.600 I would say land is a safe investment.

03:04:26.160 Technology, companies.

03:04:27.320 Solar energy.

03:04:28.340 Robotic pollinators might be a thing.

03:04:30.940 A wrestler to face a robot.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - February 05, 2026

NEW Details About Guthrie Kidnapping Investigation, and GOP in Hollywood, with Kelsey Grammer, Brian Entin, Jim Fitzgerald, and Jonathan Gilliam ｜ Ep. 1246

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