The Megyn Kelly Show - New Details About Guthrie Ransom Notes as DEADLINE Passes, and Notable Disappearance Timeline Change, with Ashleigh Banfield and More ｜ Ep. 1247

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00:00:44.860 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:46.840 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:56.620 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:58.400 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:59.660 There's a lot going on this morning. 0.51

00:01:01.100 I mean, we, my team and I have been really busting ass for you guys for the past 48 hours or 24 hours.

00:01:06.960 Just to make sure that we have everything lined up for today.

00:01:09.820 Because there was a lot at that presser.

00:01:11.660 There was a lot at that presser about the missing Nancy Guthrie.

00:01:15.360 And it was not consistent with previous messaging from the sheriff's department.

00:01:22.320 Obviously, the sheriff has reason to obfuscate.

00:01:25.820 And what he obfuscates on is potentially telling.

00:01:29.380 Um, he quite clearly was referencing Ashley Banfield's reporting a couple of times in that presser yesterday.

00:01:37.260 Without naming her, he definitely seemed to attack her.

00:01:41.040 She's here.

00:01:41.980 And we will ask her directly whether she continues to stand by her exclusive reporting.

00:01:46.080 That police consider Nancy Guthrie's son-in-law, Savannah's brother-in-law.

00:01:53.560 The man married to Savannah's sister, Annie, Tomas, as someone who, quote, may be the prime suspect in this case.

00:02:05.380 She'll update us in two minutes when she's here.

00:02:08.320 The 84-year-old mother of the NBC News host, Savannah Guthrie, remains missing.

00:02:13.500 She was last seen at her Arizona home on Saturday evening.

00:02:18.160 Um, and we'll get into the change of the timeline as well.

00:02:22.520 Plus, we have the best law enforcement analyst in the world who will be here later in the hour with his take.

00:02:27.300 But we've got to begin with one of the more bizarre developments in this entire case.

00:02:32.120 We showed you earlier this week the Instagram message that Savannah and her siblings posted to their mother and to her suspected captors.

00:02:43.520 They dropped it on Wednesday evening, and we talked about how it was strange.

00:02:48.920 This is not a judgment of how they handled themselves.

00:02:51.400 This is an observation about the odd messaging and whether it means something, whether it was potentially directed by the kidnapper to be an acknowledgement of something.

00:03:04.240 It was just so odd in the way it was presented and phrased, and that could have been completely just at law enforcement's direction for reasons we don't understand, or it could have been some sort of a signal that was asked for by a kidnapper, or it could have just been the family's choices while under duress.

00:03:23.480 Yes, we don't know, but we're trying to figure out what we can.

00:03:27.560 This part in particular is coming back to surface, and we'll explain why, and pay particularly close attention to the ending.

00:03:37.120 Watch.

00:03:37.400 On behalf of our family, we want to thank all of you for the prayers for our beloved mom, Nancy.

00:03:48.120 We feel them, and we continue to believe that she feels them too.

00:03:54.040 Our mom is a kind, faithful, loyal, fiercely loving woman of goodness and light.

00:04:07.020 She is funny, spunky, and clever. 0.87

00:04:10.800 She has grandchildren that adore her and crowd around her and cover her with kisses.

00:04:18.860 She loves fun and adventure.

00:04:22.780 She is a devoted friend.

00:04:25.360 She is full of kindness and knowledge.

00:04:29.140 Talk to her, and you'll see.

00:04:33.240 Talk to her, and you'll see.

00:04:35.860 It's kind of an interesting phrase.

00:04:37.480 And notice how Savannah's sister, Annie, seems to take a deep breath at that very moment.

00:04:43.800 It sounds like a phrase we might have heard before, and online sleuths confirm, indeed, we probably have.

00:04:50.660 They discovered that line is from the 1991 horror crime film, Silence of the Lambs.

00:04:56.560 Before we play the clip, let me tell you what the movie's about.

00:04:59.480 Most of you know, but some of our audience is younger and may not.

00:05:03.320 The main character, Clarice Starling, is played by Jodie Foster.

00:05:06.460 Starling is investigating the kidnapping of Catherine Martin, the 25-year-old daughter of the fictional Senator Ruth Martin.

00:05:13.840 Catherine, the daughter, has been kidnapped by Buffalo Bill, a serial killer who skins his female victims.

00:05:20.500 In the scene where the phrase, talk to her, and you'll see, is used, it's the kidnapping victim's mother, Senator Ruth Martin, sending a message to her daughter's captor.

00:05:33.360 Watch.

00:05:33.640 Our top story for this morning.

00:05:36.740 Catherine Martin, the 25-year-old daughter of Senator Ruth Martin, listed first as a missing person, is now believed to have been kidnapped by the serial killer known only as Buffalo Bill.

00:05:47.180 Memphis police sources indicate that the missing girl's blouse has been identified, sliced up the back, in what has become a kind of grim, all-too-familiar calling card.

00:05:55.160 Young Catherine Martin, as we've said, is the only daughter of U.S. Senator Ruth Martin, the Republican junior senator from Tennessee.

00:06:01.980 And while her kidnapping is not at this point considered to be politically motivated, nevertheless, it has stirred the government to its highest levels.

00:06:08.740 Reach for comment on the ski slopes of Stowe, Vermont.

00:06:11.660 The president himself said to be, and I quote, intensely concerned.

00:06:15.400 Just moments ago, Senator Martin takes this dramatic personal plea.

00:06:20.400 I'm speaking now to the person who is holding my daughter.

00:06:25.400 Catherine is very gentle and kind.

00:06:29.100 Talk to her and you'll see.

00:06:30.700 Hmm.

00:06:34.060 You heard that right at the end.

00:06:35.660 Let's watch him back to back.

00:06:37.600 She is full of kindness and knowledge.

00:06:41.360 Talk to her and you'll see.

00:06:43.260 I'm speaking now to the person who is holding my daughter.

00:06:48.160 Catherine is very gentle and kind.

00:06:52.080 Talk to her and you'll see.

00:06:53.640 Both reference how kind the person is and end with talk to her and you'll see.

00:07:02.120 Now, we're not the only ones who noticed this and it's getting a lot of attention on social media today.

00:07:06.920 It is one of many, many, many developments that we need to go through.

00:07:10.420 We're going to try to unpack what this means and more with Drop Dead Serious podcast host and long term crime reporter, among other kinds of reporting, Ashley Banfield.

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00:08:29.680 Ashley, welcome back.

00:08:31.360 It is an eerie similarity, and the choice of words could be completely coincidental, or it might not be.

00:08:38.800 It could be something the FBI suggested, you know, something, much in the way, if you ever watched that movie Contagion during the pandemic, starring Matt Damon, it had what the CDC would do in the case of a pandemic so exact.

00:08:53.400 You knew that there was definitely a playbook from which the CDC had behaved and that they had shared that playbook with the filmmakers in this movie that was made long before the COVID pandemic.

00:09:03.040 And it did make me wonder whether, in preparing Silence of the Lambs, the filmmakers consulted with an FBI hostage negotiator, that kind of person, who gave them the kind of messaging that they would typically give the family members of a kidnap victim.

00:09:17.180 And it made its way into the script, and it may have made its way into Savannah's script, too, in quite the similar manner.

00:09:24.500 Very astute, because, in fact, Jonathan Demme, who created Silence of the Lambs, did confer with the FBI, did have multiple investigators with the FBI and agents with the FBI actually consult on the movie.

00:09:37.640 John Douglas, one of the most famous profilers, worked on Silence of the Lambs, so it's entirely possible that there is an age-old playbook with all sorts of options and suggestions for agents to use when trying to make communications like this.

00:09:51.260 And we were told by the FBI that they were working in concert with the Guthrie family, as they should be, to help guide them through this extraordinary process.

00:10:02.020 They were very careful also to say that, in the end, all scripting is up to the final decision of the family, you know, who's going to read it, which is obvious.

00:10:11.060 But the guidance was clearly annotated yesterday when they said that they were there.

00:10:16.740 We saw them go in with the ring light and the Apple tripod, the iPhone tripod, to help set up the actual shoot for them as well.

00:10:26.260 So it's maybe not that surprising that perhaps pieces of an FBI playbook were used, maybe unknowingly to the agents today, that had been used, you know, decades ago in the creation of Silence of the Lambs.

00:10:38.700 Hmm. It does make you wonder what else in the messaging that we've heard from the family, because, of course, last night, Cameron Guthrie, the brother of Savannah and Andy, issuing his own direct-to-camera statement, just him without the sisters.

00:10:54.500 And in both of the video messages and in Savannah's Instagram post that was written, which preceded both of these video messages, there's just, there are odd phrases that really have us wondering whether they have had more communication with a potential kidnapper than they're letting on, which would be totally appropriate.

00:11:17.280 Obviously, obviously, they're not going to tell all of us everything that's happening. But her Instagram post sounded a little unlike Savannah. For one thing, Ashley, it was not capitalized, which, okay, it's a social media thing. You could make the case that a lot of people don't capitalize, but Savannah normally does. She does normally capitalize.

00:11:39.280 We went back and checked her Instagram and her Twitter. And much like yours truly, and I imagine you too, most journalists would capitalize. We're not 20, and we're just sort of in the business, so it's like we pay attention to those things.

00:11:53.040 But on this post of all posts, like the most important post of her life to date, this is the one that came out the night before the video of the three siblings. She posted on Tuesday evening. This is all without caps, even at the beginning of the very first sentence.

00:12:09.160 We believe in prayer. We believe in voices raised in unison, in love, in hope. We believe in goodness. We believe in humanity. Above all, we believe in him. Him is capitalized. Nothing else is.

00:12:19.740 Thank you, again, beginning of a sentence not capitalized, for lifting your prayers with ours for our beloved mom, our dearest Nancy.

00:12:29.740 The mentioning of her name, clearly that was suggested by law enforcement, trying to get her to humanize her. Nancy, Nancy, she has a name. She has kids. 0.97

00:12:39.160 And goes on and on. And then it ends with a quote, a Bible quote. And then listen to how she cites it. She writes in quotes.

00:12:48.360 He, that's capitalized, will keep in perfect peace those whose hearts are steadfast, trusting in the Lord. Lord is capitalized. End quote.

00:12:55.380 A verse of Isaiah for all time, for all of us. Bring her home. You know Savannah. I know Savannah too. That doesn't sound like her.

00:13:06.080 A verse of Isaiah for all time, for all of us. I don't know whether this is all coded, Ashley, but the messages are being very carefully coordinated, it seems to me, and may just be what law enforcement is telling them or could be responsive to some sort of a demand.

00:13:23.900 Well, you know, Savannah is actually pretty spiritual. I'm not sure that she would have written the message.

00:13:28.560 No, no, she's spiritual. She's very spiritual. She wrote a whole book about faith.

00:13:32.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:13:32.640 But the phraseology out of the quote, a verse of Isaiah for all time, for all of us.

00:13:39.920 You know what that also could be? Is for her mom. Because mom is very faithful. Mom goes to church, and that might have been something.

00:13:45.840 Again, if we are to believe that this ransom effort is even true. I have my serious doubts about it, and yesterday the FBI said something in the press conference that I picked up on very quickly.

00:13:58.420 They were asked about the deadlines, the second deadline, and the FBI agent said in a normal kidnapping case, there would be contact by now.

00:14:05.920 They have to take it seriously, and it's why it's prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and the guy that they pulled in in California is going to have the book thrown at him.

00:14:16.180 I think it's 8 to 10 as a minimum there for prison, because it is—

00:14:20.500 Just FYI, for those who didn't listen to AM Update, there was a separate man who was arrested this morning, or yesterday morning, for demanding a ransom of Annie and Tomas via text message, and also made a nine-second phone call to some member of the Guthrie family, who was just a fraudster.

00:14:36.520 He had nothing to do with the other ransom notes per law enforcement, nor with this case at all, we believe.

00:14:42.200 He was just trying to glom on to someone's tragedy and torture the family further, and he's now under arrest. Keep going.

00:14:47.100 Yeah, there's Derek Callea, I don't know, C-A-L-L-E-L-L-A, allegedly now charged in this.

00:14:54.140 And very seriously, too, that's interstate commerce when you use the lines like that, using email, using phone lines to cross state lines, and also interfering with law enforcement.

00:15:01.600 There's all sorts of things that could throw the book at him for that, but I would, without question, expect some prison time for this guy if he's guilty of these crimes.

00:15:08.100 But, you know, to hear any other notes, because it's a little complicated, right?

00:15:13.120 There's a note to TMZ, there's an email.

00:15:15.400 There's an email to TMZ, there's emails to two television stations that are local in Arizona, and then there's this one that was communicated directly to the family, and communicated directly to Savannah's sister Annie and her husband, Tomaso.

00:15:27.980 So, that is fascinating to hear, though, that they are focusing on the emailed ransom notes, but they also indicated, not very clearly, but slightly clearly in the press conference, that those three that went to the outlets seemed to be from the same person.

00:15:47.420 And they noted a couple of things in them.

00:15:49.020 Yes, and they did, for the first time, say that they're identical.

00:15:51.500 For the first time, the FBI confirmed in response to a question that it is the same note.

00:15:55.920 Jim Fitzgerald, who's been on with us every day, formerly of the FBI, has said that's the one thing he really wanted to know was, was it exactly the same?

00:16:03.860 You know, or could there have been, like, some sort of a copycat, or did they, for some reason, and the FBI yesterday said all three the same?

00:16:08.660 I have my questions about the details in them as well, because there were details released yesterday about floodlights, broken floodlights, potentially.

00:16:16.000 Wait, stand by.

00:16:17.240 I definitely want to get into that.

00:16:18.460 I do, but let me just finish up on the messaging from the family, then I want to talk about your exclusive reporting, and then I definitely want to get into these notes, because they're very interesting.

00:16:27.520 One other thing on the messaging, we noticed that, I mean, the family, I think, is being very disciplined on exactly what it says and how it says it.

00:16:34.300 We talked yesterday about how, very clearly, Savannah Guthrie knows how to speak at ease, directly to camera, unscripted.

00:16:42.600 She chose not to do that.

00:16:43.980 Quite clearly, they're being really careful about if somebody's got her, not triggering him, saying what needs to be said to reach him in the best way possible to actually get a response.

00:16:56.620 You know, they're desperate.

00:16:57.940 You can see it in the family's messaging for interaction with this person if he exists and has their mom.

00:17:03.660 Proof of life.

00:17:04.660 Yeah, exactly.

00:17:05.440 They want proof of life, and they're desperate to have a communication, because very clearly, Harvey Levin made this clear yesterday on various appearances, that the ransom note said Thursday night is your first deadline, and Harvey suggested Monday is your second deadline.

00:17:18.880 And it certainly sounds like if they didn't meet the Thursday night deadline, the price was going up.

00:17:23.360 Or the consequences.

00:17:24.080 And by Monday was—

00:17:25.260 Yeah, the price or the consequence.

00:17:26.540 Yeah, some sort of negative consequence.

00:17:28.140 And then by Monday, they were suggesting, without saying it, that that's when, you know, they said that would be the end for her.

00:17:34.500 That was the clear implication.

00:17:36.840 But in any event, I just want to show you the messaging that both Savannah and now Cameron have offered in their back-to-back Instagram messages here.

00:17:45.620 And this, again, was Cameron alone last night.

00:17:47.720 Okay, so that's what we heard from Cameron himself last night.

00:18:12.640 Now listen to the comparison.

00:18:13.760 As a family, we are doing everything that we can.

00:18:20.400 We are ready to talk.

00:18:22.340 Whoever is out there holding our mother, we want to hear from you.

00:18:26.080 We want to hear from you, and we are ready to listen.

00:18:30.880 Please, reach out to us.

00:18:35.100 We haven't heard anything directly.

00:18:37.480 We need you to reach out, and we need a way to communicate with you so we can move forward.

00:18:41.920 We need to know, without a doubt, that she is alive and that you have her.

00:18:50.400 But first, we have to know that you have our mom.

00:18:53.340 We want to talk to you, and we are waiting for contact.

00:18:56.160 This poor family is desperate for someone, if they actually have their mother, to be in touch.

00:19:03.840 It's abject cruelty.

00:19:04.820 To actually make it possible for them to interact.

00:19:06.820 It's torture.

00:19:07.600 It is abject cruelty. 1.00

00:19:08.120 This is ongoing fucking torture. 1.00

00:19:09.080 This is yet another scammer, or another alleged scammer. 1.00

00:19:13.240 It is abject torture.

00:19:14.180 It is why the penalties in the code are so steep for this, not just because of the interstate commerce, but because of the interjection of the law enforcement's efforts, but also just the sheer torture that you put these people through.

00:19:29.720 Yeah, it's so awful, and you and I both have our doubts about whether it's even real.

00:19:34.220 So it does, if I had to put money down, I'd say this is somebody intentionally torturing the family, trying to scam them, trying to get money from them in their most vulnerable, painful moment.

00:19:44.520 And by the way, if that's true, then it means the real kidnapper, murderer, who ever hurt Nancy, however they did it, yeah, perpetrator, is out there watching the whole thing, letting them suffer too.

00:19:57.760 Like, it's not enough that they did something to the mother, they're letting the torture go on day after day after day.

00:20:04.400 When I saw those three people, Ashley, the other night on camera, all I could think was, these are torture victims.

00:20:10.160 That's what's happened to them.

00:20:11.260 Yeah.

00:20:11.700 And we don't often see this, right, because this is a very high-profile case, but in so many of the true crime cases that we covered, this is the reality.

00:20:20.820 This is what people go through when their loved ones go missing.

00:20:24.240 Do they get a high-profile ransom note sent to TMZ?

00:20:27.860 No.

00:20:28.700 But oftentimes, they are left just as terrified and just as traumatized, especially if it's their children.

00:20:34.340 And you don't see as much of it on the media.

00:20:37.320 Yeah.

00:20:37.840 Okay, so let's get to your reporting, because it was very clearly the gorilla in the room yesterday at that presser, where it came up three different times, four actually, four total,

00:20:50.160 where the sheriff saying, we have no suspects, no persons of interest, and then some broadsides, quite clearly, I thought, at you.

00:20:58.020 I think you agreed.

00:20:58.760 I watched your show this morning without naming you.

00:21:02.540 And some of the media are piling on, oh, these influencers looking for clicks are reporting irresponsibly. 1.00

00:21:08.620 That's bullshit. 0.99

00:21:09.560 You are not an influencer looking for clicks. 1.00

00:21:11.600 I've known you 20 years.

00:21:12.900 That's not who you are.

00:21:13.880 So people are dismissing this at their own peril.

00:21:17.300 It is everyone there.

00:21:18.720 Even the sheriff said no one's been cleared.

00:21:22.320 Everyone's a suspect.

00:21:23.700 So it is not inappropriate to start where all law enforcement starts, which is with the family and work out.

00:21:30.900 That's what you're doing.

00:21:32.080 You would be doing that even if your law enforcement source had not said that the brother-in-law may be the prime suspect.

00:21:39.980 It's not inappropriate to ask questions about the family.

00:21:42.620 It's actually imperative.

00:21:44.540 So here's what the sheriff said.

00:21:47.300 Let's listen to SOT 19B.

00:21:49.420 Nobody's eliminated.

00:21:50.740 But we just really don't have enough to say this is our suspect.

00:21:55.320 This is our guy.

00:21:56.140 We know or our gal.

00:21:57.760 We just don't know that.

00:21:59.180 And it's really kind of reckless to report that someone is a suspect when they could very well be a victim.

00:22:08.440 It just I bring to you, to the media, I plead with you to be careful of what it is we put out there because we don't have anybody here listed as a suspect.

00:22:23.760 And you could actually be doing some some damage to the case, but you can do some damage to that individual, too.

00:22:31.400 This is social media is kind of a kind of an ugly world sometimes.

00:22:36.300 OK, so, Ashley, are you standing by your exclusive reporting broken two days ago now that three things top law enforcement?

00:22:47.040 Yeah, real early on three.

00:22:49.080 OK, who's an impeccable source, told you that Tommaso Sione, who was married to Annie Guthrie, Savannah's sister, may be the prime suspect in this case.

00:23:00.080 At this time.

00:23:00.600 At this time.

00:23:01.980 At this time.

00:23:02.680 And that the car that was towed and impounded was Annie Guthrie's car.

00:23:07.540 Yeah, the word that was used was towed and taken into evidence.

00:23:10.980 I noticed that that was actually confirmed yesterday.

00:23:13.700 Car was towed and is being processed as per warrant.

00:23:16.600 That was said by the sheriff.

00:23:18.000 Sort of.

00:23:18.540 He didn't say it was Annie's.

00:23:20.660 And the way he said it, Ashley, raised me a bunch of questions.

00:23:23.740 The car.

00:23:24.460 And he made it sound like it was at the crime scene, which is odd.

00:23:29.380 I don't know that Annie Guthrie's car was at the mother's house at any point.

00:23:35.020 You know, actually, here we have it.

00:23:36.200 SOT 16.

00:23:36.760 Let's let's listen to how he described it.

00:23:39.500 The car, the car that was at the home.

00:23:44.420 It's just standard investigative practices.

00:23:46.580 It's part of the search warrant scene.

00:23:48.480 Court orders.

00:23:49.440 We pull it out of there and do our scene processing with the vehicle.

00:23:56.080 Part of the search warrant.

00:23:57.860 Well, and at the home.

00:23:58.920 That would speak to it being at Nancy's.

00:24:00.880 It just said at the home.

00:24:02.760 And they've been at two homes.

00:24:04.540 Law enforcement has been at two homes.

00:24:07.380 And my source said, definitively, car was towed and is in evidence.

00:24:13.560 That's three days ago.

00:24:14.900 And that it was Annie's.

00:24:16.160 That it was Annie's.

00:24:16.640 That's instead of the Annie's car. 0.56

00:24:18.580 Did not say the car.

00:24:19.760 Said Annie's car.

00:24:20.740 The sister's car was towed and is in evidence.

00:24:23.040 And he only would say the car.

00:24:24.720 Yeah, he did not deny it.

00:24:25.540 He didn't deny it.

00:24:26.160 He didn't deny a lot of stuff yesterday.

00:24:27.700 He took pot shots and I get it.

00:24:29.440 Okay, but let's get to the big.

00:24:30.480 Let's get to the big headline about Tomas and what your source.

00:24:32.940 Because I heard your show.

00:24:34.280 Have you been checking in with your source on that piece of your report?

00:24:37.540 Multiple times per day.

00:24:38.740 And yesterday I was told by the same source still on target.

00:24:43.360 And then he said, let me put it to you this way.

00:24:45.940 If they're taking shots at you, you're standing on the target.

00:24:48.780 That was his words.

00:24:51.660 So no, no wiggling, no backing down.

00:24:53.740 No backing down.

00:24:54.480 No, no change.

00:24:56.400 And let me ask you this.

00:24:57.340 Is he, even though he's a, I'm just saying he, I don't know whether it's he or she, but

00:25:00.280 is this person, you say a top law enforcement source, but is this person in a position to

00:25:06.500 know about what's actually happening in this case?

00:25:08.600 And then after the break, um, I was informed on day two that the sheriff's department tightened

00:25:17.280 up like a noose, angry about leaks.

00:25:20.620 And so if my information wasn't, uh, accurate, why would anybody be worried about leaks?

00:25:27.060 Mm-hmm.

00:25:28.000 Who would care?

00:25:28.640 Who would care?

00:25:29.040 Ashley Banfield.

00:25:29.560 Right.

00:25:29.760 Must be just some influencer.

00:25:30.900 So that also strengthened, uh, this information.

00:25:34.440 I didn't need the strengthening, thank you, given the level, uh, of this source of mine.

00:25:39.160 And by the way, I got asked yesterday, Megan, by somebody in the mainstream media, well, you're

00:25:44.480 not working for a main network now.

00:25:47.180 Um, so have your standards dropped?

00:25:50.120 I thought, right, well, I've been at it 38 years.

00:25:53.060 I don't think I'd throw my entire four decades away for one story.

00:25:56.900 You know, I, I get it.

00:25:58.460 People have to have their own headlines too.

00:26:01.220 Um, but I did find that pretty offensive.

00:26:03.080 No, no, my standards haven't dropped.

00:26:06.180 Well, not only that, but I've noticed something else.

00:26:07.740 Some people who consider themselves close to Savannah, I've observed, have been particularly

00:26:12.640 dismissive of this report.

00:26:14.680 And I don't know if that's out of loyalty to her, like she wouldn't like this or whether

00:26:19.120 they've actually been in touch with her and she doesn't like this.

00:26:22.080 Either way, with all due respect to Savannah and the family, it's fair reporting.

00:26:27.260 And you can't, you certainly could not go by what Savannah wants you to report in covering

00:26:32.740 this case.

00:26:33.720 Of course, she'd be inclined to defend her family, even her in-law family members.

00:26:39.640 And that there's no question you wouldn't depend upon one of the victims of the crime to guide

00:26:45.060 your investigation as a reporter of the crime.

00:26:48.140 So I've just noticed there's a strain of people who I know consider themselves friends of hers

00:26:52.600 who have been particularly disdainful and are trying to move the coverage elsewhere.

00:26:56.520 And that just can't happen.

00:26:58.440 Well, that would be, that would be a hit to integrity of what I do.

00:27:02.200 Would I change the way I work because of who I'm covering?

00:27:05.500 No, unfortunately.

00:27:06.740 And it's been very difficult.

00:27:07.940 We've had to cover.

00:27:08.900 I remember one of the first stories that I covered in 1988 was someone I knew was nicked 1.00

00:27:15.500 by the feds for cross-border drug dealing.

00:27:19.360 And I had to put it on the news.

00:27:21.380 That was one of my very first stories as a cub reporter.

00:27:24.380 And it was like, well, baptism by fire.

00:27:26.000 Here we go.

00:27:26.780 And so out it went exactly as the police had reported it to us at CJBN in Kenora, Ontario.

00:27:34.920 But yeah, that would be a questionable move in, you know, journalistic scruples if I decided

00:27:41.320 to couch the reporting because of who I'm reporting on.

00:27:44.620 And it's hard.

00:27:45.320 It is hard.

00:27:45.920 But I will say this.

00:27:48.060 Law enforcement doesn't tell us everything.

00:27:49.880 That's the way it works.

00:27:50.720 In fact, I think that's what the sheriff actually even said yesterday.

00:27:53.440 I wrote his quote down.

00:27:54.720 Yeah, yeah.

00:27:55.020 He was asked, are you purposely withholding information because of the active investigation

00:27:59.460 that might be leading you in a particular direction?

00:28:02.700 And his answer was this.

00:28:04.260 You know, this is no different than any criminal investigation that we conduct here.

00:28:07.800 Went on to say, law enforcement's conducted investigations since 1865 in Pima County.

00:28:11.780 We are always mindful of what is in front of us and what we should release and can release.

00:28:17.380 There's legal guidelines that guide us, but there's also strategy.

00:28:20.600 And there's strategy.

00:28:21.840 I'll leave that for you to determine.

00:28:23.700 So that is the way it works. 0.97

00:28:25.360 We're not idiots. 0.97

00:28:26.420 They don't have to tell us everything. 0.94

00:28:28.480 But there is also a balance between the public interest and transparency.

00:28:31.880 And we are always working that balance.

00:28:34.100 In Koberger, they flat out lied to us.

00:28:36.680 They flat out lied to us.

00:28:38.560 There's no concern for the public.

00:28:40.600 There's no...

00:28:41.120 This is a targeted attack on these four kids. 1.00

00:28:43.260 That was bullshit. 1.00

00:28:44.080 There was an absolute concern to the public. 1.00

00:28:46.940 For six weeks, Brian Koberger, a maniacal quadruple murderer, was out there and maybe

00:28:52.220 eyeballing other friends of his at Washington State University.

00:28:56.000 There's a lawsuit.

00:28:57.120 That was going on.

00:28:58.100 And we know that on the 19th of December in 2022, they identified his DNA as he is the

00:29:04.540 holder of the DNA from the knife sheet, December 19th.

00:29:07.300 What did they do on December 20th, the next day?

00:29:09.500 They recorded a video.

00:29:10.980 The police chief, James Fry, the Moscow PD, recorded a video of himself and posted it

00:29:15.900 on the Moscow police website saying, we have no suspects.

00:29:19.900 Let me read it for you.

00:29:21.100 These are his words.

00:29:22.620 No suspect suspects identified and only vetted information that does not hinder the investigation

00:29:27.360 will be released to the public.

00:29:28.480 We encourage referencing official releases for accurate and updated progress.

00:29:31.820 They were already chasing him across the country at this point.

00:29:35.120 This guy has full access to every state between Washington State and Pennsylvania with

00:29:40.160 his dad as he's crossing the country.

00:29:42.000 But that's what they chose to tell us.

00:29:43.960 So what is the public's interest in knowing what reporters do and what the police do?

00:29:49.080 We all have a job to do and there is a balance.

00:29:51.620 But there are a lot of people in that neighborhood where Nancy Guthrie lives who are very, very

00:29:55.640 afraid, who said there's never been crime here.

00:29:57.600 It's a safe place.

00:29:58.500 We're really worried.

00:29:59.240 Well, let me tell you something else.

00:30:02.100 CNN had absolutely no problem, none whatsoever, in going with the flimsiest.

00:30:07.300 I'm mentioning them because there was an anchor over there who was ripping on this.

00:30:10.760 The flimsiest reporting and sourcing possible when it came to Russiagate.

00:30:16.520 Same conclusion times 100 for MSNBC.

00:30:20.820 So if anything that would reflect negatively on President Trump, they don't need double sourcing.

00:30:25.140 They don't need on the record sources at all.

00:30:27.560 Same for The New York Times, for that matter.

00:30:29.320 So now suddenly it's just because it's Ashley Banfield and she's in the, quote, influencer

00:30:34.320 realm, that that's not an OK.

00:30:36.300 A top law enforcement official with whom you've had a relationship for years, whom you call

00:30:40.880 impeccable.

00:30:41.680 For a decade.

00:30:41.980 Now suddenly it's suspect for, yeah, for over a decade.

00:30:44.800 So this is fair game.

00:30:47.180 And I'm a little inside baseball.

00:30:47.960 I resent what's being said about you.

00:30:49.380 Yeah, I do, too.

00:30:50.280 But OK, I get it.

00:30:51.340 I got big, big girl pants on.

00:30:52.960 But I will also say this, that things have changed many times over in the years that

00:30:58.320 I've been doing this.

00:30:59.080 I've gone from broadcast news, local news, cable news, you know, and then I'm now doing

00:31:02.960 podcasting.

00:31:04.200 But the way it used to be was that if you don't have three sources, you can't take it

00:31:08.600 to air.

00:31:09.000 That has changed.

00:31:10.360 Now it is the caliber of your source.

00:31:13.280 Now it is really who that source is, the trustworthiness of that source that is oftentimes

00:31:18.640 completely acceptable to all mainstream outlets, right?

00:31:23.060 So I am a little surprised on this one that that I'm getting the flack, but especially

00:31:28.040 especially with the sheriff's answers.

00:31:31.680 It makes sense when you I don't believe this person is your source, but I'm just going to

00:31:36.460 do a hypothetical here.

00:31:37.780 Let's say the source is Kash Patel.

00:31:39.960 It's obviously not him because he hasn't been in law enforcement for 10 years.

00:31:42.260 But anyway, let's just say it's Kash Patel.

00:31:44.400 It's the director of the FBI.

00:31:46.320 Do you need two sources?

00:31:47.240 I think you're good.

00:31:48.500 I think you're great.

00:31:49.000 Let's say the source is actually this sheriff, Sheriff Nanos, who's saying one thing to

00:31:54.380 the media, but saying something to you behind.

00:31:55.840 You don't need two sources that you're good.

00:31:58.220 So, of course, you're fine.

00:31:59.840 You're right.

00:32:00.420 It depends on the caliber of the source.

00:32:01.660 You know, there's something else that people should know as well.

00:32:03.940 And I don't believe this to be the truth at all.

00:32:05.580 But sometimes the media is used as well and sourcing is dropped to get stuff out there

00:32:12.200 that may agitate or make suspects nervous.

00:32:14.400 That's also a tactic that's used.

00:32:15.840 I don't believe that's the case here.

00:32:17.240 But, you know, people should realize that under the law, I don't think a lot of people do

00:32:22.060 know this.

00:32:22.520 If you're brought in for questioning, the law enforcement is allowed to lie to you in order

00:32:27.200 to elicit statements that may be either incongruent or congruent with maybe another suspect.

00:32:31.900 That is part of strategy.

00:32:34.440 And listen, I give them big grace for that.

00:32:37.080 It's a hard job.

00:32:38.040 And I have never castigated law enforcement for using that tactic.

00:32:41.220 It is legal.

00:32:42.180 You are allowed to do that in law enforcement.

00:32:44.440 So lying to us and the public, that's allowed.

00:32:47.540 But we also have a job to do.

00:32:49.960 When we are put under gag orders like happened in the Idaho case for two and a half years,

00:32:54.920 that's not transparency in American jurisprudence, right?

00:32:59.060 And so either, which way do you want it?

00:33:02.480 Do you want reporters to do their work? 0.77

00:33:04.680 Or do you want them to do their work and then, you know, take potshots at them when they do?

00:33:09.180 Again, there is this.

00:33:10.040 We're not looking for a pat on the head.

00:33:11.600 Yeah, this is not a this is not an industry you get into to be liked to the country.

00:33:18.200 It goes a different way for most of us.

00:33:20.120 I want to play you this sound because I thought this is very telling.

00:33:23.160 The sheriff was asked again repeatedly about, do you have a suspect?

00:33:26.280 You have a person of interest?

00:33:27.160 No, no, no, no, no, we don't.

00:33:28.840 No, no, no, I haven't identified different.

00:33:32.720 We don't have one.

00:33:33.640 No, it's we have an one reporter put it on the line and said, let's talk about the son-in-law.

00:33:39.240 I mean, it was explicitly like, what about the son-in-law?

00:33:41.640 Listen to the sheriff's answer here.

00:33:43.220 Sot 19 C.

00:33:44.780 Are you actively investigating the son-in-law in this case?

00:33:48.740 You said you haven't eliminated everybody.

00:33:50.780 Have you eliminated him or come close to it?

00:33:52.960 We're actively looking at everybody we come across in this case.

00:33:56.800 Everybody.

00:33:57.760 It's so cliche.

00:33:58.840 But everybody's still a suspect in our eyes.

00:34:00.940 That's just how we look at things and think as cops.

00:34:04.260 Does that mean we have a prime suspect?

00:34:06.600 No.

00:34:07.320 And the family's been very cooperative.

00:34:10.360 They've done everything we've asked of them.

00:34:13.980 And we want that relationship to continue.

00:34:18.320 And sometimes people can be mean out there and that can really harm us and harm our efforts.

00:34:27.040 We want that relationship to continue, Ashley.

00:34:31.500 There was another piece that I picked up on as well.

00:34:35.860 Another, by the way, some really good questions from the reporters in that room.

00:34:39.760 I have to say, as I was listening, I thought, well, they're on their ball today.

00:34:42.960 One reporter asked, have you been in communication with anyone you believe to be the kidnapper?

00:34:47.760 Another, long pause, then a sigh.

00:34:52.060 You know, it comes back to what we talked about.

00:34:54.540 No one is eliminated, but we really don't have enough to say, this is our suspect.

00:34:58.880 This is our guy.

00:35:00.160 This is our gal.

00:35:01.400 But the long pause and the sigh, that was telling to me as well.

00:35:05.940 He was getting together his answer, because it did seem to me as well, like he was thinking,

00:35:12.680 well, we might have spoken to the person who did this, but I'm not going to reveal that to you.

00:35:20.100 Yeah.

00:35:20.320 But you know, I give him grace as well, Megan, because honestly, I said this before,

00:35:24.020 I'll say it again.

00:35:24.880 It is not easy to do his job.

00:35:26.980 It's not easy in the best of days.

00:35:29.220 It's not easy to stand in front of the national media that is demanding answers,

00:35:33.200 asking for press conferences, preppering you live with questions.

00:35:37.640 And live is not easy.

00:35:38.740 You don't get a mulligan.

00:35:40.040 And then try to, you know, do your tap dance to protect your investigation and still be as

00:35:48.180 transparent as you can.

00:35:48.800 Well, frankly, the sheriff has been more forthcoming than most law enforcement have been in recent

00:35:53.740 cases of note.

00:35:54.700 Yeah.

00:35:55.020 No one here is ripping on the sheriff.

00:35:56.680 He's doing the best he can.

00:35:58.440 And he's trying to be as transparent as he can without blowing his investigation,

00:36:02.880 which is the most important thing.

00:36:04.340 If they do have a suspect behind the scenes, he's obviously not going to tell us that.

00:36:08.020 And we understand that.

00:36:08.820 It makes sense until he's ready.

00:36:10.160 But look, you and I are in a different business and the public has to understand that too.

00:36:14.320 We are actually are in the business of figuring out what's real.

00:36:17.360 And that's a different business than him trying to actually solve the case and arrest somebody.

00:36:22.740 We listen to nuance.

00:36:23.560 We listen to signs that aren't just words.

00:36:25.100 We listen to everything.

00:36:25.940 And there was something that happened yesterday.

00:36:27.360 And I cross referenced it with a report in New York times last night.

00:36:30.300 And that is, he was asked, um, who dropped the, who dropped Nancy off on Saturday night?

00:36:37.240 Because the sheriff has said it three ways.

00:36:38.720 He said, first, he said, I think I might have it out of order, but these three things were

00:36:42.820 said, Annie dropped Nancy off.

00:36:45.300 Then he said, Annie and Tommaso dropped Nancy off.

00:36:49.120 Then he said, Tommaso dropped Nancy off.

00:36:51.320 So the reporter in the room actually said, what is it?

00:36:53.200 Which one is it?

00:36:53.740 You've said it three ways.

00:36:55.120 And the answer was, I mean, it was just sort of alarming to me.

00:36:58.800 I just thought this is so weird.

00:37:00.360 He said, just family.

00:37:02.480 We're going to go with family.

00:37:04.900 But then he did tell them.

00:37:06.280 We have it.

00:37:06.900 It's stop 13.

00:37:07.860 Yeah.

00:37:08.120 Listen to it.

00:37:08.720 It's incredible.

00:37:09.260 It's weird.

00:37:10.200 You know, there's also conflicting reports about who was the last person to actually see

00:37:14.420 Nancy and drive her home. 1.00

00:37:15.960 We know she took an Uber to Annie's house, but can you confirm whether it was Annie or her

00:37:20.200 son in Montempo also took her home that night?

00:37:22.000 I think the timeline that the sheriff provided was a family member, but just family.

00:37:26.600 We're going to go with family.

00:37:28.620 I don't know what that means.

00:37:29.500 We're going to go with family.

00:37:30.380 I don't know what that means, but he did confirm.

00:37:31.580 He was on the record with the New York Times the day before saying it was Tommaso.

00:37:35.300 Absolutely.

00:37:35.960 And they printed that last night that he told the New York Times it was Tommaso.

00:37:41.860 Yeah.

00:37:42.120 So I don't know why the like, look, I have my theories, but why would you withhold that

00:37:48.000 when you said it already three different ways?

00:37:49.840 Why don't you just clear it up and not leave this obfuscation for people like you and me

00:37:53.100 to talk about saying, well, that are you trying to deflect from him in some way?

00:37:57.200 Is it, is it strategy?

00:37:58.940 Is it kindness?

00:37:59.520 Whatever it is, it's odd.

00:38:01.320 And just for the listening audience, here it is from the New York Times the day before

00:38:04.440 he said, we're going to go with family.

00:38:05.820 Uh, Mrs. Guthrie's son-in-law, Tommaso Sione dropped her off and ensured she made it inside

00:38:11.260 safely before leaving.

00:38:12.900 The sheriff added, he was on the record to the New York Times, which was a shift from

00:38:19.580 his earlier messaging.

00:38:21.360 So clearly he wanted it out there that it was Tommaso.

00:38:24.720 And then by the time they got to yesterday's presser, he had shifted back to quote, family.

00:38:30.980 Now just going to go with family, which is weird.

00:38:33.840 Like we're just going to go with family.

00:38:36.240 It's an odd way to put it.

00:38:37.480 Yeah.

00:38:37.720 Like what does it mean?

00:38:39.740 Okay.

00:38:40.020 Now here's the other thing that's really bothering me about, I agree with you that the reporters,

00:38:44.660 many of them did a good job, but there were some glaring questions that were not asked.

00:38:48.460 And the timeline was changed dramatically on Sunday morning.

00:38:55.260 What this sheriff had been saying to us before was that, um, at 11 o'clock or just after 11

00:39:03.700 AM on Sunday morning, the family was notified by a friend in the church who noticed Nancy didn't

00:39:11.480 attend and they went over to her house.

00:39:14.240 And about an hour later, they called 911.

00:39:18.460 That's, that was the story this whole week.

00:39:20.960 That created a lot of consternation.

00:39:22.000 Then we got to the, and many people said, why did it take an hour?

00:39:25.900 How do you like, especially seeing blood outside of the house, like Brian Enten got on camera,

00:39:30.300 who would take an hour?

00:39:32.000 Um, now then last night or yesterday at the presser that totally shifted.

00:39:38.140 He said, they discovered, they got to the house and discovered she was missing at 11 57

00:39:43.640 AM.

00:39:44.760 So we've lost a whole hour now, the controversial hour and called law enforcement five minutes later

00:39:51.340 at 12.

00:39:52.280 Oh, yeah.

00:39:52.600 I think it was seven minutes later.

00:39:53.680 Yeah.

00:39:53.760 Sorry.

00:39:54.180 My math is off.

00:39:55.160 My math is off.

00:39:55.740 Okay.

00:39:55.900 Seven is lightning fast.

00:39:57.920 That's fast.

00:39:58.660 Okay.

00:39:58.820 So it's a dramatic difference, but here, let's just listen.

00:40:02.540 Here's what he had said prior to yesterday.

00:40:05.120 This was the story.

00:40:06.260 SOT 18.

00:40:06.700 Some time earlier that morning, they got a call from somebody at the church who said,

00:40:12.480 Hey, your, your mom's not here.

00:40:14.600 Um, the family went to the house.

00:40:17.920 I'm thinking they, they spent some time looking for her themselves before they called us.

00:40:22.200 So I'm guessing maybe they got there around 11.

00:40:24.780 So they did some searching and realized we need some help.

00:40:28.860 And they called 911.

00:40:29.880 She was dropped off at nine 30 and she was found to be missing at about 11 o'clock Sunday

00:40:34.260 morning.

00:40:34.580 I know that when we got there, we got there.

00:40:37.020 The family was already there and they were, they'd already spent some time looking as you

00:40:42.100 would expect.

00:40:43.200 Um, probably we got an hour delay there from them.

00:40:46.520 Uh, not anything intentional, just that, you know, they went and looked and made some calls

00:40:51.820 and then they decided we better call 911.

00:40:54.460 And at 11 56 AM, uh, the family checks on Nancy and discovers her missing.

00:41:02.860 And at 12 03 PM, 9-1-1 is called in to the Pinnacotta Sheriff's Department.

00:41:10.820 What?

00:41:12.740 Because just to, just to underscore it here.

00:41:15.060 First, it's, they got a call from a friend at the church around 11 10.

00:41:20.920 Then he says it was at about 11.

00:41:22.820 Then he told you that middle clip is on your show.

00:41:26.220 He says they found out about 11 and it was about an hour delay before they called 9-1-1.

00:41:31.860 Now, yesterday, he says they checked on Nancy and discovered her missing at 11 57, right?

00:41:40.500 Is it a little, I keep.

00:41:41.680 I keep 57.

00:41:42.440 No, that's right.

00:41:43.040 That's right number.

00:41:43.980 Yeah.

00:41:44.140 57.

00:41:44.940 So, so what do you mean?

00:41:47.400 Because we've also, in the midst of all that, had both the Daily Mail and Brian Enten yesterday told us as well,

00:41:55.320 reporting that Nancy Guthrie wasn't going to church physically anymore and hadn't been since the COVID pandemic.

00:42:04.400 That she'd been joining the live stream the church offers and participating from her home.

00:42:09.840 Moreover, the Daily Mail reports it wasn't a Zoom situation where the congregants could see who was joining virtually.

00:42:16.500 It was just a live stream being blasted out by the church, outgoing only.

00:42:20.860 And therefore, no one would be aware of whether Nancy was participating or not.

00:42:25.480 So, how did we go from, she talked to a friend who was concerned at the church, which you heard him say on camera there, and they took him an hour and then they called 9-1-1, to now it's, they checked on Nancy and discovered her missing and within moments called 9-1-1.

00:42:42.540 Yeah, I think these are all things that lead to an even bigger mystery and a little confusion.

00:42:48.660 I always give law enforcement grace when there's so much going on and there's an exigent circumstance and now all these ransom notes which have taken law enforcement's direction elsewhere.

00:42:57.840 Let's be honest, this is awful.

00:42:59.780 These ransom notes, especially the one in California, if this guy is guilty of this, it has taken their attention away.

00:43:07.840 But it's a, you know, fog of war is not easy.

00:43:10.940 I can understand how there'd be communication breakdown.

00:43:13.880 There's other agencies coming in, sharing of information, maybe telephone, you know, the game of telephone makes mistakes.

00:43:19.940 But I do think that it adds to another element of confusion about this.

00:43:25.360 I think you're being too nice in this situation.

00:43:27.500 With all due respect to the sheriff, you know as well as I do, the time she was discovered missing is very important.

00:43:35.560 It's not fog of war.

00:43:37.080 It is not fog of war.

00:43:38.200 That, you know.

00:43:38.840 Yeah, it shouldn't be.

00:43:40.340 Maybe the dissemination of it was, though.

00:43:42.260 The only grace I give is that it is a complicated task that they're undergoing and we don't make it.

00:43:48.060 Nobody asked about it.

00:43:49.780 Somebody in that room needed to say, you've adjusted the timeline dramatically, Sheriff.

00:43:54.720 Why?

00:43:55.340 No, there was lots that I wish they'd followed up on the car being towed and being processed by warrant.

00:44:00.360 I mean, where was that?

00:44:01.600 Like, hold it.

00:44:02.220 You and I are going to have to fly out there for the next one.

00:44:04.160 Literally, I think you and I are going to have to fly out there together for the next one.

00:44:06.720 That's at least four questions, two for you and two for me.

00:44:09.380 Yeah, seriously.

00:44:10.340 I was very frustrated because it was like, that's an obvious one.

00:44:13.560 Ask that.

00:44:14.160 And the one about the car was the other one.

00:44:15.860 Like, he just sort of elided around it.

00:44:19.100 It was like, yeah, car, standard search warrant, court orders, crime scene.

00:44:23.640 Wait, wait, wait.

00:44:25.240 Yeah.

00:44:25.620 Right.

00:44:26.160 No, I know.

00:44:27.120 Nancy's house is the crime scene.

00:44:28.720 Was it towed from Nancy's house or was it towed from Annie's house, Sheriff?

00:44:33.240 And whose car was it?

00:44:35.460 And if it's Annie's, why are you towing Annie's car?

00:44:38.340 I only think that since many of the breaking pieces of information that I had were addressed

00:44:46.020 bullet by bullet in that news conference, that when he said the car being towed, I assumed

00:44:52.340 that was because I reported that Annie's car has been towed and is now in evidence.

00:44:56.520 I assumed that's what he was saying because he said the car towed from the house, that's

00:45:01.080 standard.

00:45:01.800 As per warrant, it's being processed.

00:45:04.780 So he didn't say from Nancy's house.

00:45:06.600 He didn't say from Annie's house, I'm, I'm only, I can only go on.

00:45:09.860 He was bulleting my, um, my reports and trying to knock them down.

00:45:14.220 But you know, did you hear what he said about the cameras?

00:45:16.240 Something else I picked up on.

00:45:17.680 Let's talk about that.

00:45:18.700 Big time.

00:45:19.320 Before we talk about the cameras, let me just say quickly, we actually did reach out.

00:45:22.620 We went, um, and tried to pull the warrants to see if they were public.

00:45:25.600 They're under seal.

00:45:26.140 So we can't get them right now to see exactly what they got a warrant for.

00:45:28.540 But let's talk about the cameras.

00:45:29.840 Cause that's another piece of your reporting that has come under fire.

00:45:33.980 First, tell us what your reporting is.

00:45:35.320 And then we'll talk about what he said.

00:45:36.180 So the exact words that were used is that the nest, and I was told nest cameras, that

00:45:41.540 was the first time that they'd been named.

00:45:43.100 They weren't ring cameras.

00:45:44.140 They were nest cameras, plural were smashed.

00:45:48.140 That was the wording nest cameras were smashed.

00:45:51.240 And when asked about that, the sheriff said, well, first he had reported they were removed

00:45:56.300 and in the timeline called them disconnected.

00:45:58.360 But when asked about them being smashed, he said, smashed, I don't know where you got the

00:46:03.260 information about smashed, but we're not confirming that.

00:46:06.560 And then he did confirm it as plural, that there were more than one.

00:46:12.020 And that was something that I reported, that there wasn't just the one that Brian Enten saw

00:46:15.220 the bracket left behind.

00:46:16.800 By the way, he went further about that.

00:46:19.300 And it was interesting.

00:46:20.360 He said, regarding the disconnected camera, do you believe that camera was taken?

00:46:24.100 And the sheriff said, we do not have it in our possession.

00:46:27.500 We have not located it.

00:46:29.440 So does that mean that the perpetrator smashed those cameras off the brackets and took them

00:46:34.540 away?

00:46:35.800 Maybe he just doesn't.

00:46:36.520 Clearly, here he is.

00:46:37.800 Let me play for the audience.

00:46:38.860 It's SOT 14.

00:46:40.040 It's a montage.

00:46:40.720 Sunday morning, early morning at 1.47 a.m., the doorbell camera disconnects.

00:46:47.100 The doorbell camera, it was removed.

00:46:52.260 We know that.

00:46:52.820 But we're not confirming that any cameras were smashed or destroyed around the house.

00:46:58.680 I don't know where that came from, but that's something we're not confirming.

00:47:02.780 When you say the doorbell camera was disconnected, do you believe that that camera was taken?

00:47:09.120 We do not have it in our possession.

00:47:11.180 We've not located it.

00:47:13.380 It's a yes.

00:47:14.720 Well, I mean, it's off the bracket.

00:47:16.560 How do you get it off the bracket?

00:47:18.140 Do you bring a screwdriver or do you smash it?

00:47:21.080 Is this semantics?

00:47:22.240 I don't know.

00:47:23.160 But to me, it was pretty telling that that's more of my reporting that has borne out.

00:47:30.540 And then we were able to get to the bottom of yesterday.

00:47:33.120 We got very confused as we looked at the timeline that they put up about how he was saying the

00:47:38.320 doorbell cameras were disconnected.

00:47:40.100 And then minutes later, there was a picture captured of a person.

00:47:44.560 No, not a picture.

00:47:45.180 They don't have the image because.

00:47:46.520 Yeah, it's the alert.

00:47:47.660 No, no, I know.

00:47:48.320 I know.

00:47:48.580 But there was an alert.

00:47:49.900 The point is not whether it was a picture or a written text.

00:47:52.740 The point is that they got a communication from a camera after they said the doorbell

00:47:57.240 cameras were disconnected, which was confusing.

00:47:59.700 And what they said was there were other cameras.

00:48:03.220 That was basically the explanation.

00:48:04.820 We reached out to the FBI.

00:48:06.480 We reached out to the sheriff's office.

00:48:08.120 We went back and watched the end of the presser where they did reference there being more

00:48:11.960 than just the doorbell cameras.

00:48:13.380 And the sheriff's office, too, clarified.

00:48:16.740 Basically, there were other cameras.

00:48:18.460 And it was one of these other cameras that alerted them to the image of a person.

00:48:22.400 The sheriff later said could have been an animal, too.

00:48:25.260 Alerted to activity.

00:48:26.400 Yeah.

00:48:26.420 And the secret is here, and it's a great message to everybody who's watching and listening.

00:48:32.820 If you have a doorbell service of some kind, whether it's Nest, Ring.com, or any of the

00:48:39.340 services, you pay for a subscription to be able to get your history.

00:48:44.520 Or for many of them, it's just a live alert.

00:48:47.420 There's someone at your door right now.

00:48:49.140 You can look and you might be able to talk to them.

00:48:51.960 But once that's done, it's gone.

00:48:54.280 You don't have an archive of it.

00:48:55.520 So if you come home and you wonder who was skulking around your front door, unfortunately,

00:49:00.200 if you don't have the service, the subscription, you can't go back and look at all the alerts

00:49:05.140 and what they actually recorded.

00:49:06.980 And that was what I think they were trying to tell us.

00:49:09.020 It's like Snapchat.

00:49:09.500 I mean, it's basically, yeah, you can alert in real time.

00:49:14.780 And then if you're there and you catch it, you can look.

00:49:17.080 But once it's gone, it's gone.

00:49:18.620 And so I took that second one.

00:49:21.180 And it was weird, right?

00:49:22.120 Because it's like, you know, one camera, it disconnects at, it's an earlier time.

00:49:27.440 It's like quite a bit of time to 147.

00:49:29.320 The second camera just gets 228.

00:49:31.880 It's almost 45 minutes.

00:49:33.240 So here's what it could be.

00:49:34.720 Because a lot of these cameras are powered by batteries, not because they're plugged in

00:49:38.640 somewhere.

00:49:39.300 It's not because they're plugged in.

00:49:40.180 Um, the first one maybe was smashed and then crimes were committed and Nancy's being abducted

00:49:46.080 and the second one is smashed.

00:49:47.480 And then those cameras are taken, but it's jostling around somewhere and a battery is

00:49:52.480 recording an alert of movement.

00:49:54.120 It doesn't say what the movement is.

00:49:55.280 It doesn't show you what the movement is.

00:49:56.400 It just says movement, motion detected.

00:49:59.580 That's what that might be.

00:50:01.820 Hmm.

00:50:02.120 So you're thinking it could actually be the dismounted doorbell cameras that produced the alert.

00:50:07.360 We don't know.

00:50:08.780 He's not specifying just how many cameras were in there and what, if anything, they were

00:50:12.520 connected to.

00:50:13.880 Um, but yeah, that was one of the mysteries of the presser yesterday.

00:50:16.700 We did not understand how there was a doorbell camera disconnecting at 147 and software detecting

00:50:21.000 a person on cam at 212.

00:50:23.220 And now all they're saying is there, it was a different cam.

00:50:25.860 I have something to tell you real quickly.

00:50:27.160 Brian Enten had drone video, uh, looking inside the garage, Nancy's garage showed Nancy's

00:50:32.540 car in the garage.

00:50:33.760 So it had clearly not been towed into evidence at least one car.

00:50:38.100 Very, I don't know if she had two, but at least one car was in that garage.

00:50:41.040 It had not been towed.

00:50:41.780 If she had two, maybe there's no way there's no 84 year old woman who has two cars who lives 1.00

00:50:47.280 alone.

00:50:47.700 I'd like, that's not a thing.

00:50:50.120 Um, it's Annie's car.

00:50:51.660 I don't like, but we, we don't know for sure.

00:50:53.580 I mean, we know from your reporting, but like, it would have been nice to hear somebody

00:50:56.860 ask that of the sheriff as opposed to just crapping on your reporting.

00:51:00.140 They should follow up on it and ask probative questions.

00:51:03.380 Some did.

00:51:03.840 Wouldn't confirm.

00:51:04.160 Not everybody.

00:51:04.920 Wouldn't confirm if there was or wasn't forced entry.

00:51:07.520 My source said door in the back wide open, and he wouldn't confirm whether or not there

00:51:11.820 was or wasn't.

00:51:12.540 Wouldn't do that.

00:51:14.920 Ashley, thank you.

00:51:16.400 Thank you so much for your courage and your in-depth reporting.

00:51:19.800 Check her out guys on her podcast, Drop Dead Serious.

00:51:22.960 And we are back now with our spectacular legal panel, including Jim Fitzgerald, Jonathan Gilliam

00:51:27.600 and Chad Ayers.

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00:52:49.940 We're going to bring in our panel a second, but I just want to go through one thing with you, okay?

00:52:52.980 This is the timeline that they gave us yesterday.

00:52:55.400 9.48 p.m., Nancy's garage door opened. 0.72

00:52:57.680 We believe that's the family.

00:52:58.800 We believe it was Tomas dropping her off, though we could be wrong,

00:53:02.380 because the sheriff keeps changing his story on that.

00:53:04.580 He told the New York Times, it was Tomas.

00:53:07.000 Then he changed it at the presser to, we're going to go with family.

00:53:09.820 So, dropped her off 9.48 p.m. Saturday night.

00:53:13.660 9.50 p.m., Nancy's garage door closed.

00:53:17.600 So, clearly she went in through her garage to her house.

00:53:20.640 So, in that two-minute time frame, it opened, it closed, and we believe she went inside.

00:53:24.480 Then at 1.47 a.m., the police said yesterday, her doorbell cams were disconnected.

00:53:30.300 So, that's when we believe the bad guy, whoever it was, destroyed and took, that's our understanding, these doorbell cams.

00:53:40.680 Ashley's reporting on the front and the back at 1.47 a.m.

00:53:44.340 2.12 a.m., software detects a person on cam.

00:53:47.280 No video is available.

00:53:48.640 2.28 a.m., the pacemaker app shows a disconnection from the phone.

00:53:53.440 So, she's got a pacemaker in her body that communicates with her phone and an app, and we are told that if it gets some 30 feet away from the phone, if she gets some 30 feet away from the phone, it'll disconnect.

00:54:07.900 Now, so, clearly she was being taken out of the house around that time, 2.28.

00:54:14.440 So, if you go from 1.47 a.m., which is when the doorbell cam got disconnected, to 2.28 a.m., which is when her pacemaker, meaning she, got far enough away from her phone that the app stopped communicating with the pacemaker, that is 41 minutes.

00:54:31.420 41 minutes.

00:54:32.280 What was a kidnapper doing in Nancy Guthrie's home for 41 minutes?

00:54:41.740 How does it take 41 minutes to kidnap an 84-year-old woman?

00:54:46.320 I realize they don't move slowly.

00:54:48.780 It certainly appears as though she fought.

00:54:51.180 Something happened to cause her to bleed on her front porch or patio area as it appears she was being taken out of the home.

00:54:58.620 But 41 minutes?

00:55:01.900 You got to take off some time to smash the cameras, but that happened, you know, 1.47, the doorbell got disconnected.

00:55:09.240 I don't, was that, how long could that possibly take?

00:55:11.680 10 minutes?

00:55:13.180 1.57 now?

00:55:14.500 Now it's 31 minutes.

00:55:16.380 To get her and get out of the house?

00:55:17.700 Why?

00:55:18.980 That's too long.

00:55:20.060 I don't know whether something else happened inside that house.

00:55:25.920 Was there a struggle?

00:55:28.480 Did someone take her life?

00:55:30.880 Is that what happened?

00:55:32.420 And then in a panic removed her?

00:55:34.860 So with her would go the evidence?

00:55:38.780 There is a question about what other evidence was inside the house.

00:55:42.200 And I'm going to play you the sound bite and then I'll bring in my panel.

00:55:47.200 Let's play the sound talking about what went on inside that home.

00:55:50.080 I think it's .8B.

00:55:51.840 In the house, were there any signs that someone tried to clean up or maybe destroy evidence?

00:55:58.160 I can't talk about the crime scene.

00:56:01.020 So I'll give you another shot.

00:56:02.240 Another question.

00:56:03.080 Is there any missing bedding from the home?

00:56:06.260 Again, I can't speak to that.

00:56:07.900 There are certain things in that home that we know only the intruder knows about and the things that occurred.

00:56:16.060 And we don't want that information out.

00:56:19.360 So the sheriff has been meticulous both in an interview with Ashley earlier this week and at the presser yesterday about not revealing what evidence they have inside of the house.

00:56:29.700 But whatever it was, it, plus, we believe, in addition to the blood drops out front, led them to call in the homicide unit.

00:56:40.420 41 minutes is a long time.

00:56:42.900 We're going to bring in some guys that will give you insight on this.

00:56:45.800 You won't get anywhere else.

00:56:46.700 Former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Jim Fitzgerald, co-host of the Cold Red podcast.

00:56:53.540 Former Navy SEAL and FBI Special Agent Jonathan Gilliam and former SWAT Assistant Team Leader Chad Ayers.

00:57:00.260 Gentlemen, welcome.

00:57:02.000 41 minutes.

00:57:02.900 Think about it.

00:57:03.760 I hadn't really thought of it in those terms up until they laid out the new timeline last night.

00:57:07.860 That's a long time.

00:57:09.520 And the sheriff is saying that there is additional DNA evidence that they're waiting on the results of.

00:57:16.540 So clearly they did find something else inside that was DNA related.

00:57:21.180 We just don't know what.

00:57:22.320 Jonathan, let me start with you on that.

00:57:24.480 It's a long time, 41.

00:57:26.060 Yeah, sure.

00:57:26.600 You know what?

00:57:26.980 This kind of points me towards, Megan.

00:57:28.900 First of all, we're putting so much attention.

00:57:31.500 Everybody is looking at ransom, ransom, ransom, that it's easy to overlook the other possibilities.

00:57:38.700 And the fact that you honed in on this is really good, the 41 minutes, because that could be the time period when somebody was looking for something.

00:57:48.000 So they go into the house.

00:57:49.640 There was no robbery, but were they looking for something else?

00:57:53.000 Is there paperwork?

00:57:54.420 Is there something going on that we don't know about with Miss Guthrie?

00:57:59.240 And somebody was in there trying to find something in particular?

00:58:02.720 Because I can't think of any other reason for them to be in there for that long.

00:58:08.120 It's not like they're going to interrogate her before they kidnap her.

00:58:12.420 So it would be a quick in and a quick out, typically.

00:58:15.860 So it almost appears just from this timeline that somebody may have been in there, and then perhaps she woke up and there was a scuffle and it took a dark turn.

00:58:26.980 And that has happened before.

00:58:28.820 I've read case studies where that's occurred.

00:58:31.560 And then they have to go down a different road.

00:58:34.880 And in this case, it could be a fake ransom.

00:58:38.520 So I'm not exactly, I'm not sure.

00:58:40.380 But I think that this kind of alludes again to the fact that whoever was in that house had been there before, I just have this suspicious feeling, and that they were doing something other than just setting up to abduct an 80-year-old woman.

00:58:58.900 So I think this is something that is causing me to pause for just a moment.

00:59:03.920 The reference to some unspecified DNA found inside of the house that's now being tested makes you wonder exactly what was it?

00:59:12.280 You know, was it just they swiped the door handles and the windows and maybe Nancy's bedposts for touch DNA?

00:59:21.840 Or was it actual bodily fluids?

00:59:24.400 It's, without putting too fine a point on it, it is the case that sometimes when you take someone's life, they'll relieve themselves.

00:59:33.800 They'll lose whatever urine or feces are in their bodies, but not in every situation.

00:59:40.280 But that would certainly, if there was any evidence of that, I feel like they'd be treating this case differently, Chad.

00:59:45.960 I feel like they'd be talking about it differently.

00:59:47.780 But I don't know, because his first move was to call in homicide detectives, and there was additional DNA inside that house.

00:59:56.480 Listen, I'm not one to hold back.

00:59:58.640 And something that we haven't discussed, Megan, is it possible that a sexual assault also took place?

01:00:05.420 And again, I hate to even breach the topic, but is that a possibility?

01:00:09.380 Listen, two counties over from where I am two or three years ago had the exact same situation.

01:00:17.080 The only difference was this lady here was 89 years old, but it was a person on drugs, sexually assaulted her in the middle of the night, brutally murdered her. 0.99

01:00:28.660 Now, she was still there, but is that a possibility?

01:00:30.780 One hundred percent.

01:00:31.580 That's still a possibility.

01:00:33.060 The thing is that when he says, you know, we are still processing DNA and being so vague, it could make us go down a rabbit hole.

01:00:41.720 There's all sorts of options that we have.

01:00:44.200 What do you make of it all, Jim?

01:00:47.900 This was a clearly successful abduction.

01:00:52.100 If it is a kidnapping, it's poorly undertaken.

01:00:55.640 You don't spend 41 minutes as a kidnapper in the place where you're taking your victim.

01:01:01.160 You get in and you get out.

01:01:03.020 And that's why I'm leaning.

01:01:04.720 I'm leaning away somewhat.

01:01:06.160 And a lot of the questions about this alleged ransom letter.

01:01:09.060 I know they're finally come back to be identical.

01:01:11.600 But again, a successful abduction for whatever reason is it to hide evidence?

01:01:16.900 41 minutes.

01:01:17.720 Was there an argument of some sort?

01:01:19.340 And I'm not going to point to family, but is it someone known to this woman?

01:01:22.280 And they started having, you know, interaction of some sort.

01:01:26.040 And the person snapped out and hit her. 0.97

01:01:27.960 Oh, my God.

01:01:29.000 Now, if it's a stranger, leave the body there, get the heck out.

01:01:31.920 If it's someone known to the woman, what do I do now?

01:01:35.120 They better take that body and put it somewhere else. 1.00

01:01:37.560 Or if she's still alive, who knows what condition she's in.

01:01:40.520 But I got to somehow remove her from the scene.

01:01:43.140 So that 41 minutes does open.

01:01:45.580 Assuming that number is correct and it doesn't change on this again, Megan.

01:01:49.240 And, you know, that's going to be very critical there.

01:01:52.780 So, again, a successful abduction, but a poorly run kidnapping at this point.

01:01:57.140 And I have other examples we can talk about of other kidnappings down the line here today.

01:02:00.540 But it's just not being run very efficiently or effectively so far.

01:02:04.980 If their ultimate goal was to get money out of these kids.

01:02:07.280 Unless there's a lot of things, mitigating circumstance will be things that we're not learning from law enforcement.

01:02:12.960 But successful abduction, not a good kidnapping.

01:02:15.000 And yet it doesn't look like a full lunatic because they did think to get the ring cameras or they were Nest cameras.

01:02:21.460 And apparently managed to do that without, I don't know, getting caught.

01:02:24.840 I realized that those were not subscription cameras.

01:02:26.980 So maybe the images were on there but just were written over.

01:02:30.500 That's what the sheriff said happens with these cameras when you don't have the subscription service.

01:02:33.800 By the way, get the subscription service.

01:02:36.080 You know, I don't think most of us fully understood, you know, that that was a thing.

01:02:40.040 But you got to get the subscription service because it's useless to you in solving crime if it just rewrites every couple of hours, as the sheriff said, or writes over itself.

01:02:47.820 Like $100 a year.

01:02:48.940 I do want to talk about, I want to talk about the ransom notes in a second.

01:02:53.540 But I got to be honest, I'm with you guys.

01:02:55.740 I'm not totally intrigued by the ransom notes because I don't, I don't believe personally that they're from the real kidnapper.

01:03:03.080 Though, I could totally be wrong because the more I listen to Harvey Levin, the more I think he's starting to believe that they actually are from the hostage taker.

01:03:12.800 But we'll get to those in one second.

01:03:14.480 I just want to stay on a couple of the items that we discussed with Ashley too.

01:03:18.000 How about this, the change in the timeline on Sunday morning, guys?

01:03:21.640 I talked about this a bit with Chad yesterday, but I didn't get to talk to you other guys about it.

01:03:25.680 It was, as we played from the sheriff, I don't know if you guys heard this, but the sheriff had been saying all week that it was an hour delay, that the family had been called by a constituent at the church.

01:03:38.160 I'm reading here.

01:03:38.780 Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos has said a congregant called Nancy's family at 11 a.m. on Sunday.

01:03:44.100 This is the Daily Mail reporting.

01:03:46.680 A congregant called Nancy's family at 11 a.m. on Sunday after she failed to arrive at church.

01:03:52.160 And then we played the sheriff on camera this week, repeatedly saying that, putting the time around 11.10, that the family got notified and got over to, and or got over to Nancy's house, either notified at 11.10 or there at Nancy's house.

01:04:05.860 They live only a couple of minutes down the road.

01:04:08.420 And then suddenly yesterday, it's completely changed to, no, the family discovered her missing at 11.56 a.m., discovered her missing.

01:04:19.620 And then within seven minutes, called 911.

01:04:25.100 Now, that to me seems like a rather large thing to have wrong, like when the family discovered that she wasn't there.

01:04:32.280 Coupled with the new information that Nancy, now this could turn out to be wrong too, a lot of things have, but that apparently Nancy was not going physically to church.

01:04:40.740 She wasn't going to church.

01:04:41.960 The Daily Mail spoke with a woman who said, hold on, I'm finding my quote here.

01:04:49.780 Let's see, a fellow congregant in Nancy's church reading from the Daily Mail in Tucson was initially reported to have alerted her family that she failed to attend the morning service on Sunday.

01:04:57.840 Curiously, however, a source has now told the Daily Mail that the elderly mother of the Today Show host had not been at St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church for years.

01:05:06.000 Ever since the COVID pandemic, she has been worshiping online.

01:05:10.420 It is understood that St. Andrew's did not have a large-scale Zoom call for online viewing, as some religious organizations do.

01:05:15.560 Instead, the church's 9 a.m. and 1045 a.m. services on Sunday are live-streamed, and it is impossible for other participants to know who else is watching.

01:05:24.380 To know who else is watching.

01:05:25.500 Now, the church responded by saying, all we can tell you is that Nancy has been a member here for many years.

01:05:32.020 She is part of our community, and we love her, said Ed Coates, administrative assistant at St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church.

01:05:37.760 Quote, we're praying for her, and that's really all we have to say right now.

01:05:41.600 I'm sure the media will know before we will, you know, how the story unfolds, but we are praying for her safety and praying for her family.

01:05:48.780 So this was her church, the Daily Mail, and also Brian Enten reporting that she had not been to this church physically for years.

01:05:57.480 So how could a congregant have noticed she wasn't there and called the family to report it on Sunday morning?

01:06:07.700 You know, I would—whenever I hear these things, Megan, first of all, this timeline, I'm looking at it as you're talking.

01:06:14.040 I'm going through it, and it's a little odd.

01:06:16.140 The timeline that we have versus the verbiage of the sheriff before is different, and there are some things like the camera detecting or being disconnected and then detecting movement.

01:06:27.920 There are some things there that don't make sense.

01:06:30.120 It could be easily explained, but they don't make sense.

01:06:32.400 But I would like to know who the person is that reported this to the family, okay?

01:06:38.960 Who called the family?

01:06:39.700 Right.

01:06:40.120 Yes, same.

01:06:40.780 If she's not known to be there or to be on camera, who was it that's suspected?

01:06:47.320 Is it somebody that she usually talks to while she's on there, and they said, oh, you know, she—and they're just not telling us that?

01:06:53.020 That would make sense, and perhaps it's that simple.

01:06:56.180 But if somebody—if the church or somebody's reporting that there's no way to know if she's online, yet somebody comes up with information that she's not there, then who was that person, and how did they have that information?

01:07:11.560 So there's these things, and also the timeline of the family.

01:07:16.340 This reminds me, again, of Idaho, where, you know, they found all this crazy stuff, and instead of calling police immediately, they called a bunch of friends over to decide what to do next.

01:07:26.980 And so if the family went there and discovered that she wasn't there, and it took that long for them to notify police, if the first timeline that the sheriff went over is correct, that is also very suspicious to me why you would get there and take that long to call police when apparently it was odd enough for you to go over there and check in the first place.

01:07:50.320 See, I have been defending the hour-long delay because I feel like I would be so reluctant to involve law enforcement without knowing for sure this is that level of situation.

01:08:03.960 I'd be like, she wandered. Let's check on our own first.

01:08:06.800 Or she may have been picked up by a friend and gone over to a friend's house. Let's check out that.

01:08:12.440 Now, the blood on the front stoop makes it all less easy to understand the hour.

01:08:17.100 That takes it, but that's assuming they saw it. Maybe they, too, came in through the garage, which doesn't take you right over the patio. I don't know.

01:08:27.060 And we also don't know what the scene was inside the house. Was it chaotic? Was it obvious that some sort of struggle had happened in there, in which case the hour-long delay would be weird to law enforcement, too, right?

01:08:37.920 It's like, you go to your mom's house and she's not there. That's one thing. You go there and you see, like, tables overturned and a blood trail leading up to the bedroom.

01:08:45.120 You call within 30 seconds. You know, all that's relevant.

01:08:48.820 But I find it very odd.

01:08:50.060 Can I say this one thing?

01:08:50.740 He's changed it so dramatically.

01:08:51.940 One thing real quick is that what I have to guard against is an FBI agent, and the other gentleman can speak to this, or as an investigator, I should just say investigator.

01:09:00.020 I do not get into the trap of offending people because I assume somebody may have done something.

01:09:08.080 And, you know, in the Gonsalves family, when the Idaho murders went down, I wasn't that I was suspicious, but I made the comment that the father, Gonsalves' father, his behavior was very odd to me.

01:09:21.760 So I just pointed that out.

01:09:22.820 And the vitriol that I got because I pointed that out was overwhelming.

01:09:27.540 But, see, that is what an investigator cannot do.

01:09:30.420 If the family members, other family members are saying, no, no, it's not this person or it's not this family member, you have to ignore that because the potential there is that you are going to look past somebody who was involved.

01:09:42.320 And if you look at anything, go and binge watch 48 Hours Mysteries, which has been on for 30, 40 years,

01:09:48.820 and you will see that the vast majority of these things are done by family members.

01:09:54.200 And in a lot of cases, the other family members protest about looking at their siblings or spouses and things like that.

01:10:02.480 And keep in mind, we got Savannah living, staying with her sister right now as well.

01:10:07.180 Isn't that, Megan, what we learned?

01:10:08.620 Clearly, Savannah believes in her sister and her brother-in-law.

01:10:12.680 I mean, I think that's obvious.

01:10:13.860 She wouldn't be staying at that house otherwise.

01:10:15.520 And look, we don't know them at all.

01:10:17.220 They may be completely lovely people and, you know, this is like crazy to be even looked at.

01:10:23.560 But the reality is if a loved one dies or is missing under very mysterious circumstances where very clearly a crime has been committed,

01:10:36.880 you're going to be looked at.

01:10:38.200 That's just the reality of it.

01:10:39.260 That's just like there's nothing wrong with that.

01:10:41.040 That is crime solving 101.

01:10:43.440 And more than likely, they understand that.

01:10:46.620 And if they have nothing to hide, I mean, they'd be like, we'd be, which is like, go ahead and look at me.

01:10:51.160 Here's my phone.

01:10:52.060 Here's my car.

01:10:53.120 Here's ask me anything.

01:10:54.360 Like, I appreciate, look at me.

01:10:56.020 Get me off of your radar as soon and as quickly as possible so you can move on to, you know, whoever really did it.

01:11:02.640 And that leads me to the car.

01:11:05.560 We discussed it a bit with Ashley.

01:11:06.900 But that car, I did not like that sheriff's answer.

01:11:10.820 It was very ambiguous.

01:11:13.500 He was like ticking off the things that Ashley had reported without naming her.

01:11:17.000 And he's like, as for the car, that standard procedure, I'll play it again for you guys.

01:11:22.360 It's 16.

01:11:23.360 Listen to this.

01:11:24.000 No one had asked him a question.

01:11:25.000 He was clearly going through Ashley Banfield's exclusive reporting and trying to, like, dispute her reporting, but he didn't really.

01:11:33.420 He just kind of said, we're not commenting on that.

01:11:35.180 Or I don't know where anybody got that.

01:11:36.800 The one thing he really did kind of confirm without confirming was her report that they have seized Annie Guthrie's car and that it's been impounded.

01:11:44.260 And here is his comment on that in SOT 16.

01:11:46.820 The car, the car that was at the home, it's just standard investigative practices.

01:11:54.220 It's part of the search warrant scene, court orders.

01:11:57.180 We pull it out of there and do our scene processing with the vehicle.

01:12:03.840 Guys, I don't even know what that means because if it was Annie Guthrie's car, it was, I believe, at Annie Guthrie's house.

01:12:10.980 Like, I haven't heard any reporting that her car stayed at her mother's home for days until it was allegedly impounded.

01:12:19.140 Um, and I don't know that that would be part of, if it was at Annie's house, that would not necessarily be part of the crime scene in a standard search warrant.

01:12:28.820 So, how does that grab you?

01:12:32.560 I'll start here, Megan.

01:12:33.920 Just, we talked about this the other day.

01:12:35.580 Uh, I mean, I think they would be remiss as investigators to not search that car, impound it, put it in the evidence lot, and bring in a team to go through it.

01:12:44.360 Uh, if, if they had found anything of, uh, viable evidence there, forensic evidence, hairs, fibers, DNA, of course, anything related to that, um, that's off to the lab right now.

01:12:54.620 They're, they're trying to get their comparisons.

01:12:56.320 Obviously, no arrests made.

01:12:57.880 Uh, the messaging is complicated and confusing.

01:13:01.500 I sometimes wonder if they're playing 4D chess or we're back at checkers when we're listening to some of this stuff being said, uh, we're not going to even comment on the sheriff and his, his delivery style.

01:13:11.560 I think he's drying his best.

01:13:12.940 I agree with that part.

01:13:13.780 I'm giving them some room too, like Ashley said, but the car part, I think I, I, I'm not going to get too overly concerned about that.

01:13:20.460 I think that is something they had to do.

01:13:22.120 And there's probably other cars they're also looking at.

01:13:24.260 They should be interviewing a lot of other people too.

01:13:25.820 Why did they have to do it?

01:13:26.760 Explain, explain why they had to do it.

01:13:28.240 Because they're within that inner concentric circle of family members.

01:13:30.740 And that may have been the car that the mother was last driving in dropped off by someone, one or two people the night before.

01:13:37.640 So that's the last car she was in.

01:13:39.740 Let's see what we can find in there.

01:13:41.340 If it's in the front seat, hairs and fibers from mom backseat, no big deal trunk or rear SUV.

01:13:46.840 Then it means something else.

01:13:48.440 So they did it.

01:13:50.020 Apparently a consensual search, maybe a search warrant, whatever it was.

01:13:53.200 And, uh, and, and so far they're awaiting results or the results were negative and they're moving on in a different direction.

01:13:58.480 I mean, the one thing I think we can say, cause I'm just thinking about, you know, we think that the time of kidnapping or, you know, disappearance was around 2 a.m., you know, right around there.

01:14:08.380 I mean, the pacemaker stopped communicating at 2 28 a.m.

01:14:11.760 I think it's fair to say if, if she was taken or God forbid killed prior to that point, we would know thanks to the pacemaker because the pacemaker does communicate with the Apple watch and the Apple phone.

01:14:31.180 And as I understand it now, it's, it's kind of constantly downloading, uh, information on, on there.

01:14:37.940 And if you have like an event, it'll show you, but the, it's constantly collecting information, the iPhone on, on, from your pacemaker.

01:14:44.440 So.

01:14:44.860 Which they haven't reported an event.

01:14:46.240 If her heart stopped.

01:14:47.180 They haven't reported an event.

01:14:48.360 Right.

01:14:48.460 But so, but I'm saying like if, if, yeah, so if her heart had stopped beating, you know, prior to, you know, at any point from 9 45, when she was last seen forward, we'd know that we'd know if she were no longer alive prior to the moment that her pacemaker stopped communicating with the phone.

01:15:06.060 So I think we really can, in this case, unlike a lot of cases, really put the time of whatever happened to her, removal from the home at 2 20, you know, not, not before 2 28 a.m.

01:15:18.140 And would we assume that the sheriff would come out or the FBI would come out and say, we believe she is still alive.

01:15:24.080 If they have that cell phone data from the pacemaker and we see that, hey, actually her heart has stopped at X amount of time.

01:15:30.960 Would he still be standing, standing in front of that podium saying, we believe Nancy Guthrie is still alive.

01:15:36.940 No way.

01:15:37.720 No way.

01:15:38.120 And, and like going in so depth into the ransom notes.

01:15:41.140 Go ahead, Jonathan.

01:15:41.560 Well, you know, who else would know this is they have emergency contacts.

01:15:45.320 When you have a pacemaker, you also have emergency contact and the information goes to your doctor.

01:15:50.520 And if that, if there is an incident that is reported to the doctor, but it's also reported to the person who is your emergency contact.

01:15:57.480 And they, they do these things for a reason because that's why you have a pacemaker.

01:16:02.280 So if it went offline, who was her emergency contact?

01:16:06.380 And did the signal go to the doctor?

01:16:08.560 And why did nobody call 9-1-1?

01:16:11.560 And, uh.

01:16:12.260 Well, cause I mean, it could, that could just be, you forgot your phone.

01:16:15.160 I don't think they would alert the doctor in the middle of the night that like you got too far away from your phone.

01:16:20.160 But I mean, but that's not the same thing as having an event, like a cardiac arrest.

01:16:24.080 That's the other thing.

01:16:24.720 If she's being abducted and her heart rate spikes in the middle of the night and it doesn't usually spike like that or it stops,

01:16:31.820 that is going to notify your emergency contact and the doctor's office.

01:16:36.220 It'll be a record of that there.

01:16:38.260 That should be on there.

01:16:39.320 I agree.

01:16:40.380 So I just, like, to me it makes who dropped her off, even though there's been weird messaging around that at 9-48,

01:16:47.580 a little less relevant, because I don't think this is a case where whoever dropped her off, you know,

01:16:54.800 took her then or did something to her then, because I do think the pacemaker would have recorded something between 9-48 and 2-28 that night.

01:17:04.920 We would have seen an event or something.

01:17:07.980 She was clearly still in the house between 9-48 and 2-28.

01:17:14.160 At least her body, in some form, was still in the house during that time.

01:17:18.980 She had not been taken yet.

01:17:20.280 They did make a point to say that the son-in-law had made sure that she was safely inside the house.

01:17:25.780 I don't know what that means.

01:17:27.660 And is that an excuse for his DNA to be around that area?

01:17:31.080 I don't know.

01:17:33.340 They did make a point of that.

01:17:34.700 That's interesting.

01:17:35.320 His DNA should be there anyway.

01:17:36.840 That would not necessarily prove anything.

01:17:38.940 Blood or, of course, other body fluids would tell us a lot of his or whoever else it is.

01:17:44.700 But these people, if I just add in here, they really have to start re-interviewing.

01:17:48.800 They probably interviewed him at least twice so far, separate.

01:17:51.800 Start offering polygraph examinations to them.

01:17:55.140 You know, polygraphs aren't perfect, but if done right, but the right polygraphist and, you know, the pre-interview, the first interview, post-interview,

01:18:02.680 you can get a lot of information from people.

01:18:04.520 So this concentric circle we're talking about.

01:18:06.840 Wait, Jim, can I ask you a question on that?

01:18:07.720 Can I ask you a follow-up on that?

01:18:10.820 Isn't that dangerous?

01:18:12.220 You know, you heard the sheriff say the family's been very cooperative so far and we want to keep it that way.

01:18:17.820 You say then, yo, would you sit for a polygraph?

01:18:21.800 I'm thinking I'm going to lawyer up at this point because I know exactly where you're going.

01:18:25.940 Maybe even if I'm innocent because you never know.

01:18:28.900 You don't want to get in trouble.

01:18:30.540 Well, and that's law enforcement has to put the cards on the table and say, look, we have to rule everyone out.

01:18:36.340 They may be telling them in confidence, this case is going nowhere.

01:18:39.480 We don't have suspects outside.

01:18:40.940 We don't have phone cameras, facial recognition or, you know, red light cameras, all that stuff, phone pinging off towers.

01:18:48.200 So we just want to go this one more time and then we're basically done with you.

01:18:51.940 And, you know, I'm from old school.

01:18:55.140 If you say you want a lawyer and you say you want someone to represent you or you're refusing to be interviewed or a polygraph, I didn't want to ask some more questions about you.

01:19:03.800 But I certainly want phone records, too, from everyone and ask them about, all right, will your phone call to this person, to that person?

01:19:09.020 And even the person at the church, whoever this person was allegedly called, let's get them interviewed in depth, in detail, maybe a polygraph to them.

01:19:17.760 And let's start throwing these things out there.

01:19:20.040 And there should be another team, of course, working, you know, the alleged ransom note and email, whatever it is, and looking at all those factors, too, from far away.

01:19:28.000 But that concentric circle, a team has to be in there saying, we're doing this for your sake, everyone, please.

01:19:33.460 And if someone turns down on that family, you know, that request, the other family members, because, oh, wait a minute, why don't you want to talk to the investigators?

01:19:40.820 And who knows where that would go from there?

01:19:43.280 But it may lead to a break somehow of the family and someone come forth.

01:19:46.480 I'm not pointing at the family at this point, but do they know someone indirectly, even tangentially, that somehow thought they were doing the right thing and abducted the woman, whether it's a kidnapping or not?

01:19:56.720 We just don't really know that yet, for profit, that is.

01:20:00.000 Go ahead, Chad.

01:20:01.320 So I know yesterday, you know, all of us were kind of this timeline and the disconnect that we know that the ring doorbell, I know, Jonathan, you and I were talking about this, the ring doorbell was destroyed.

01:20:12.400 And then we get that, then the disconnect.

01:20:15.920 So I did a little research.

01:20:17.660 And these cameras do oftentimes, Megan, operate independent of each other.

01:20:23.300 All right.

01:20:23.620 So just because you messed up the ring door.

01:20:26.380 It was Nest, by the way.

01:20:27.520 I don't know if that matters to you.

01:20:28.800 It was Nest.

01:20:29.420 Well, and what I read is that you can disable, break, whatever they want to call the ring doorbell, let's just say on the front door.

01:20:36.840 And this is kind of the theory now.

01:20:38.460 I'm kind of, because obviously Ashley talked about the back door there. 0.86

01:20:42.840 It appeared that there was some type of entry made to the back door.

01:20:45.880 So is it possible when we look at these two disconnects was they disabled, you know, someone knew how to approach this door to not be viewed or whatever, or it did view them and they just didn't capture the image.

01:21:00.500 They destroy that Nest camera.

01:21:03.380 All right.

01:21:03.520 At that point, we know that is going to be the exit, or we believe that's the exit.

01:21:08.420 Then at that point, they can pull a vehicle to the front door, but the entry, whether they're working with one or two, entry is made into the back.

01:21:15.740 Now, again, this doesn't help with the 40-some-odd minutes or however they were inside the house, all right, but when they go into the back door to make entry, that is that, you know, the other picture that we are gaining from.

01:21:30.020 So that's one thing that—

01:21:31.680 Well, we had a disconnection at 1.47 a.m., and then we had 2.12 a.m. software to text person on cam, no video available.

01:21:37.860 So they could also be hardwired, but they also have batteries.

01:21:42.460 Most people use them for the batteries.

01:21:43.960 The batteries last a long time on these Nest cameras.

01:21:47.380 So it could be that the camera itself was taken offline and moved, but somehow was able to report movement because it was being moved.

01:21:59.200 The camera itself was being moved.

01:22:01.460 So that's a possibility as well.

01:22:03.980 Also, you know—

01:22:04.760 Or there could be another camera.

01:22:06.260 There could be a third—like, we went back, we did ask and specifically tried to get clarity on the camera issue,

01:22:11.980 and we spoke with law enforcement, and they said there was more than one camera in the house.

01:22:17.800 That's what they wanted us to know.

01:22:18.920 Like, there was—that's how they explained the fact that the Nest camera, possibly plural, were gone,

01:22:27.480 and yet they still had this data that at 2.12 a.m. software detects the person on cam.

01:22:32.820 They said there was not a camera.

01:22:33.860 What we're doing right now, by the way, Megan, is exactly what happens when you're investigating something,

01:22:39.340 and you have all these different aspects of known behaviors or known things that have occurred at a scene.

01:22:52.200 And then—but you don't know the total picture.

01:22:54.240 So where you have to guard—this is where conspiracy theories come up, is you have to take what you know

01:22:59.440 and categorize that or catalog it and then not go down the road too far of theories of each one of those things

01:23:08.440 because we're making educated decisions based on what we know.

01:23:11.580 However, what we know about this may have nothing to do with what actually happened.

01:23:16.660 And that—what we're doing right here is really how this works in a lot of ways is we take what information we have

01:23:23.720 and we try to piece it together or find evidence of the gaps that exist so we can connect those things.

01:23:31.140 And that's where we're at versus law enforcement.

01:23:35.000 A lot of these things don't make any sense, and I think a lot of this has to do with the sheriff's verbiage.

01:23:40.900 I'm still stuck on 41 minutes.

01:23:42.780 Why is it to take 41 minutes to get an 84-year-old out of the house? 0.67

01:23:46.060 And I also am focused on that there's other DNA that we're having tested right now.

01:23:50.920 You guys know as well as I do, they probably lit that house up in Luminol to see whether anybody had done cleanup,

01:23:57.780 to see whether there had been more blood that had been cleaned up, in particular on the inside of the house versus the outside.

01:24:04.320 And they know the answer to that right now, like how much blood was spilled

01:24:08.160 and what other bodily fluids may have been spilled.

01:24:12.380 And is that what they were doing?

01:24:13.680 Were they cleaning up?

01:24:14.480 Were they covering their tracks before they left?

01:24:18.040 Or did something more nefarious happen during that time?

01:24:21.240 The blood drops out front, you know, we've had some people who are familiar with crime scenes suggest

01:24:27.340 that the way the drops hit suggests that they came straight down vertically as if from like a bloody nose,

01:24:34.320 that kind of thing.

01:24:35.460 I'm not sure we know that.

01:24:36.780 I think that's just armchair analysis.

01:24:38.060 We haven't heard like a true blood expert opine to that effect.

01:24:42.980 So we just we just don't know.

01:24:45.360 Stand by that because we do have to investigate the notes.

01:24:47.960 And Harvey Levin really revealed a lot last night about what's in them.

01:24:52.520 And they are very clearly being taken very seriously by the Guthrie children.

01:24:57.000 I mean, and they've seen them.

01:24:58.440 So I think those three absolutely believe that this might be the hostage taker and that they might need to negotiate with this person to save their mother's life.

01:25:07.520 And Harvey Levin really revealed quite a bit about what's in there and why they might believe that.

01:25:12.180 That's next.

01:25:12.660 We'll take a quick break first.

01:25:13.920 Be right back with more.

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01:26:12.320 We're back now with our panel and more on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, and we're going to get into the ransom note now.

01:26:22.820 The ransom note, the authorities confirmed yesterday that it was the same note sent to all three media outlets, TMZ and to Tucson local television stations.

01:26:31.440 That was a question Jim had been asking from the beginning.

01:26:34.700 We're told by the FBI, same note, three different recipients.

01:26:38.380 And now Harvey Levin is offering new details of what was in the letter.

01:26:42.960 Here's a little of what he told Aaron Burnett last night, SOT 5.

01:26:46.420 The Monday deadline is far more consequential.

01:26:50.520 I will say this, that they do mention an Apple Watch, as the FBI said, and they do mention the floodlight, the damaged floodlight.

01:26:58.740 There is something else, and it is the placement of the Apple Watch, which has not come out.

01:27:05.600 And if that placement is accurate, I'm sure that is something that puts this letter on the FBI's radar.

01:27:15.820 They went to great lengths in sending this email to us in making sure that it stays anonymous.

01:27:23.340 I don't know that the FBI is at all close to figuring out where it came from.

01:27:28.800 They began the letter, I don't think I'm giving anything away here, they began the letter by saying that Nancy is okay but scared.

01:27:39.140 So they say she is okay, and also that she's aware of the letter and the demands.

01:27:47.000 That Nancy Guthrie herself is aware of it.

01:27:50.040 Yes.

01:27:50.520 So that's very interesting, the part about the watch, guys, because one of the questions at the presser yesterday was, okay, you know, you're saying in this note they referenced the Apple Watch and something about the floodlights on her home.

01:28:04.040 Well, you can see the floodlights on her home from outside.

01:28:07.260 Like, there are pictures right now on Fox News Digital showing them.

01:28:09.720 You know, it's not like a big news thing.

01:28:12.140 And the reports about her Apple Watch hit, I think, on Monday, like right after this story first became national news.

01:28:19.580 So, and the ransom notes, as far as we know, did not go to the media outlets until, we believe, Tuesday.

01:28:25.880 Okay.

01:28:26.920 So the question was asked to the FBI, like, you know, why do we believe these are real as opposed to somebody who just heard information in the news and then tried to capitalize on this family's pain?

01:28:37.860 And the FBI director seemed like he didn't say, oh, no, there's other stuff in the note.

01:28:42.840 He was like, yeah, that's one of the things we're considering.

01:28:45.900 But now you have Harvey Levin saying, no, no, no, there was something specifically about the placement of the Apple Watch, which he suggested only the kidnapper could know if the placement of the watch, as described in this note, were correct.

01:29:02.000 You know, if the person, maybe they said she had it right on her bedside table next to a picture of the one grandchild and a notepad.

01:29:10.540 You know, maybe it was something that truly only the kidnapper could know.

01:29:13.720 So that's one of the reasons why he's taking it very specifically or very, very seriously.

01:29:21.240 There's one other thing.

01:29:22.440 There's two other things I want to play.

01:29:23.740 But let's just start there.

01:29:24.960 Does that what do you make of Harvey's take on the specifics of the note?

01:29:28.740 I'd like to know if those if that note is how similar is it to the one that the guy got arrested for?

01:29:35.360 So that first and foremost is kind of sparking my interest because I need to totally rule that guy out for everything else,

01:29:43.260 which law enforcement may have done that already.

01:29:45.580 But the specific they're saying they're not related.

01:29:48.180 OK, I mean, look, I think the FBI is doing what they should be doing first and foremost, which is taking it seriously.

01:29:54.980 It doesn't mean it's real.

01:29:56.120 It means they're taking it seriously because they don't know if it's not real.

01:29:59.580 And so, you know, how how much do people vary in where they put their watches or did they put the watch in a certain place and then mention that?

01:30:09.800 You know, I don't know that.

01:30:12.040 And so I think speculating on on the reality or the realism of these of these notes, even though they sound very compelling, it may just it may not be anything.

01:30:24.400 Or it may be, again, Megan, 41 minutes in a home before you abduct somebody.

01:30:30.320 It just may be the fact that people who were in there know her and know that house and they're using this as a ruse and they can say these specific things because they were in there for that long.

01:30:40.760 Whether they meant to hurt her or not or wake her up or not.

01:30:45.120 Wait, are you suggesting like if they if they took her life and now they're just play acting that there's a kidnapping underway?

01:30:55.080 It very well could be.

01:30:56.000 I mean, that that would not be the first time that that has happened and it would not be the first time that people have gone into.

01:31:02.860 If it was a sexual assault, as we were talking about earlier, I doubt that that individual that would go into the house and do a sexual assault of that nature of an elderly woman is going to go down the road of this ruse.

01:31:16.680 So those wouldn't be probably connected.

01:31:18.580 But a family member we have seen in the past where they have tried to send the police down another road, either blaming somebody or some type of ruse.

01:31:26.420 So I could see that occurring, especially if the death was not intentional.

01:31:32.040 Let me get to two other soundbites from Harvey describing what's in the note.

01:31:35.940 Here's thought 6A to Hannity.

01:31:38.520 I don't know, but the way it's written, they say this is it.

01:31:42.500 It's the only communication and the police aren't going to be able to help you.

01:31:46.580 They're that bold saying that there is a phrase in this email that absolutely makes me believe.

01:31:54.480 This person who wrote this and if they're telling the truth that Nancy is in with a within a radius of the Tucson area, not in Tucson right now, but in a radius would be New Mexico.

01:32:08.260 I don't know how far, but I think at least what the authorities have is they've got a radius and that's something.

01:32:15.980 There's a little bit more on her allegedly being in the Tucson area where he spoke with Aaron Burnett, SOT 6.

01:32:21.440 My sense is this is whoever sent this letter is based in the Tucson area.

01:32:30.140 And I say that because of a reference made in the letter, a sentence in the letter.

01:32:36.180 It feels to me reading it that this is Tucson based.

01:32:42.340 And and and I think that's a fair analysis based on, you know, my discussions today in the office and just reading this letter.

01:32:50.600 So this doesn't feel like this is somebody out of state or out of the country who hatched this plan.

01:32:58.760 It feels more localized.

01:33:01.960 And then today on his show, he expanded even further, saying why he believes she might be held in the Tucson area.

01:33:09.680 If this note's real, quote, there is a demand of millions in Bitcoin for Nancy's safe return.

01:33:14.300 And there is a time frame for how long it would take Nancy to be returned to Tucson after getting the money.

01:33:21.680 Now, I disagree with Harvey.

01:33:23.780 That does not mean that this person is not overseas.

01:33:26.560 He could be overseas.

01:33:27.700 And this whole thing is a fraud.

01:33:29.280 He's trying to take advantage of Nancy Guthrie's disappearance.

01:33:34.040 You could absolutely be sitting someplace in India doing this whole thing.

01:33:38.540 Harvey's suggesting if it's real, then the person's got her near Tucson, because obviously he's suggesting, Chad, that they could have her back very quickly once they get their millions.

01:33:52.120 Yeah.

01:33:52.400 And I think what it what it really boils down to, I mean, if we're just using common sense here, it's not like they took her to an airport or even or even an FBO and got her on a private plane.

01:34:02.620 Right. You've got to have an idea unless you've got some, you know, janky airfield behind your house in the middle of the desert.

01:34:08.120 They were on some prop plane, probably very highly unlikely.

01:34:12.100 So we can probably eliminate that aspect.

01:34:15.880 So where is she?

01:34:17.980 Does this mean she's right in that immediate area?

01:34:22.240 I don't know.

01:34:22.980 It's hard for me to believe that you would risk getting in a car and driving states away with her in the vehicle,

01:34:30.220 risking getting pulled over, risking getting in an accident, anything like that. 1.00

01:34:33.980 I call it bullshit. 0.99

01:34:37.300 That's a good point. 0.99

01:34:38.760 I mean, how seriously should we take these notes, Jim?

01:34:41.620 All right.

01:34:41.940 Let's break it down in the cases I've worked over the years with some similarity to this one, or certainly I'm familiar with.

01:34:49.500 We'll just focus on the note now.

01:34:51.740 It's either a hoax or it's real.

01:34:54.140 And I'm sure investigators are looking at both possibilities there.

01:34:59.540 If it's a hoax, it could be for three separate reasons.

01:35:02.540 Just an opportunist saying, hey, I'm going to make some quick money off this like you just described.

01:35:06.540 They're in India, Eastern Europe somewhere. 0.70

01:35:08.260 They have nothing to do with the case.

01:35:10.840 If it's, it could be harassment.

01:35:13.560 Just someone, could be some college kids having fun with this.

01:35:16.480 Hey, I know how to put these emails together.

01:35:18.540 You know, I watched, you know, Criminal Minds back in the day and they put something together.

01:35:21.780 Or, and this brings us back now to what is the reason for the abduction, for profit or is it for a revenge taking of this woman and possibly doing bad things to her.

01:35:33.860 And they put this out, as I described yesterday, a POMIC, Post-Offense Manipulation of Investigation Communication.

01:35:40.540 Lots of syllables.

01:35:41.480 I coined that term because I was seeing these things happening in other cases I worked over the years, certainly back in the late 90s and early 2000s.

01:35:49.620 And these are, it's a whole sort of separate set of letters that people were putting together.

01:35:54.080 So, is someone sophisticated enough who took Mrs. Guthrie, then put her somewhere, not still alive and not alive and said, hey, I'm going to become a suspect.

01:36:04.600 I better put this fake email out to two news stations and TMZ.

01:36:09.180 Why TMZ?

01:36:09.920 I'm not sure, but that's probably what the person watches.

01:36:12.980 And that's a clue, too, about who this person is.

01:36:15.080 So, but so the investigators have to handle this as being real.

01:36:18.640 I've never said they shouldn't, but they also have to consider other options here.

01:36:22.680 And I'll tell you what, the family, it's easy for me being objective, sitting on this side of the investigation or actually out of it.

01:36:29.440 But knowing enough about it, they should be demanding as best they can for a proof of life somehow, some way.

01:36:37.220 And if you're a good kidnapper, you're going to provide that because you didn't do this for fun.

01:36:41.360 You didn't do this just for kicks like they did 100 years ago, that the two college kids kidnapped a young boy in Chicago.

01:36:47.300 But you did this to make money.

01:36:49.040 So this is a whole failure.

01:36:50.920 If she winds up dead and you wind up getting no money, that you're still going to be held liable for it.

01:36:55.300 So they better be some kind of proof of life that they offer.

01:36:58.660 And then the parents, I should say the family will know she's alive or not.

01:37:02.580 But these are all the options and the different sort of silos that the investigators have to look at of what this letter actually means, this email and how and its authenticity.

01:37:11.920 So do you guys believe if we don't, if the family doesn't get proof of life between now and Monday, which is the second deadline in there, which is the more serious deadline, according to Harvey, I can only guess he's suggesting they're saying that's it for Nancy on Monday.

01:37:28.380 But something much more serious, he said, is going to happen on Monday if they don't get the money.

01:37:32.620 If they don't offer proof of life, which is what Savannah and her siblings asked for, which is what Cameron, her brother asked for last night, you know, they want to be in communication very, very badly and they want proof of life.

01:37:45.720 And this and you know what?

01:37:47.080 I bet Savannah, if she got proof of life, I bet she'd pay the money.

01:37:50.240 I bet she would pay the millions of dollars. 0.98

01:37:51.840 I mean, who wouldn't if you had it?

01:37:53.780 So if they don't get it and Monday passes, do you feel like we can safely say this was a hoax?

01:38:01.240 Well, we can say it was a ruse or a hoax.

01:38:05.360 And so what's the difference there?

01:38:07.920 Somebody is like the guy in California is just trying to extort money from somebody, basically.

01:38:14.080 Whereas if the people who did it use this as a ruse to get the tension away from them and then they just drop off the radar, I think it's very, very telling.

01:38:24.320 Because a true person, listen, there's two phases of this crime that happened.

01:38:27.780 One is, well, actually three, entry to the house and whatever reason they were there for 41 minutes, removal of the victim or kidnapping or removal if it was a body, and then this potential ransom issue.

01:38:46.260 And the ransom part of this is really the most technical aspect of this.

01:38:52.360 So somebody to do all three of these things for the first time ever is quite a big deal.

01:38:57.880 Now, they're doing these in Mexico.

01:38:59.240 The cartels are using Bitcoin now as ways to collect ransom.

01:39:03.380 But there's no evidence that that's occurred over the border, which is not really far from where she lives.

01:39:10.920 Her type of person or person, the persona that she or the person that she is rich and going and she traveled to Mexico and being kidnapped there, that would make sense.

01:39:20.880 So I just look at this as we're going down a rabbit hole here that has two different types of phases of this crime.

01:39:31.760 And the second one, which is this ransom issue, it's very hard to figure out.

01:39:38.180 And I'll say, I think because in the, if she is there, if the ransom is real, they said 5 p.m.

01:39:46.220 They didn't say Greenwich Mountain Time, right, which I think a professional would probably say that.

01:39:51.420 They said local time.

01:39:52.700 So that kind of tells me that the potential is that they.

01:39:55.360 I don't know if they said that.

01:39:56.920 I don't know if they said local time.

01:39:58.260 Can I just ask you, can you guys stick around for just another couple of minutes?

01:40:00.840 I know you're very busy, but I feel like we need to finish this discussion.

01:40:03.340 I won't keep you long.

01:40:04.060 Can you stay past the top of the hour for a bit?

01:40:06.820 Yes.

01:40:07.520 Okay, great.

01:40:08.180 We're going to do an ad.

01:40:09.580 We're going to come back with the guys.

01:40:10.460 We're going to finish the ransom discussion properly.

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01:42:58.500 What is in the letter?

01:43:04.380 Because there's been a lot of disparate reporting.

01:43:06.420 What is in the letter that can serve as a proof of the fact that they were in that house?

01:43:11.460 You know, is there this stuff about the floodlight, the watch?

01:43:14.340 You know, remember, there's images of her wearing the watch online.

01:43:17.040 And that's one of the things I would be doing, LJ, by the way.

01:43:20.100 Those images of her online, I've seen at least one of her with Savannah.

01:43:24.360 I would get my tech guys and hammer that website.

01:43:26.920 Who's been hitting that website?

01:43:28.680 Can you identify any out-of-country IPs that have been hitting that website?

01:43:32.560 Somebody hitting it continuously recently?

01:43:34.600 Stuff like that to try to contextualize this letter to see if it's legit.

01:43:39.720 Because without something that really tells you she was in that house,

01:43:43.720 there's no way you can pay this ransom because there's no way to confirm you're going to get her back.

01:43:47.960 That's Paul Morrow, former NYPD inspector on Fox News, earlier back now with our panel.

01:43:54.920 So that's a really good point, you guys.

01:43:56.800 I mean, truly, like if you're in the Guthrie's position right now, desperate to have her back,

01:44:01.900 you probably would pay anything if the kidnapper would just make clear he actually has her.

01:44:09.360 You can't.

01:44:10.500 You can't send Bitcoin or anything else right now.

01:44:14.920 How could you possibly do that without proof of life?

01:44:17.320 I mean, even if you're most desperate, you know that would be absolutely foolhardy, right?

01:44:22.740 Like there's no way the FBI is going to advise them, Jim, to do that.

01:44:27.900 Yeah, and there's no way a real experienced kidnapper would not be willing to give proof of life.

01:44:35.160 It's done in many cases in the past in which I am familiar, and there's just no reason for it.

01:44:40.560 I think a more logical thing right now for the family to consider, and again, we don't know all the facts.

01:44:47.140 And where this watch was placed, it was in a dog bowl, hanging from a chandelier in a toilet.

01:44:51.880 That could be something significant.

01:44:53.040 Oh, yeah, I left the watch in the house.

01:44:55.200 That's not as much to me important proving what this is.

01:44:58.680 And all that really means is the person was inside the house and saw the watch.

01:45:02.180 It doesn't mean this is a four-ransom kidnapping, even if that is the case.

01:45:06.340 What I would consider the family doing right now is putting out a million-dollar reward.

01:45:12.280 And they will consider turning that over to the cryptocurrency, to the address they were given, if, in fact, they get proof of life.

01:45:22.280 And let's see what that generates.

01:45:24.340 $50,000 is nice.

01:45:26.040 The FBI put that up.

01:45:27.360 But I just see a million or even more as a reward for the location of Mrs. Guthrie.

01:45:34.460 And then if we get proof of life, we can transfer that to a cryptocurrency account somewhere.

01:45:40.320 And let's see what that generates.

01:45:41.700 These people want the money.

01:45:43.120 They didn't do this for fun or an exercise.

01:45:45.820 If, that emphasis is on if, if it's an actual kidnapping for profit.

01:45:49.700 If it's anything else that changes the entire paradigm and there are other factors in there that we've already discussed.

01:45:54.820 Well, Jim, let me run something by you.

01:45:57.880 Think about this.

01:45:58.980 Would, if, because we started off the show again and we heard Ashley talking about the son-in-law.

01:46:03.860 If the son-in-law is involved, is this letter, and if it's from him, is that just a BS letter?

01:46:14.040 Because you would think if, if, if the son-in-law went in there to, you know, take her life in hopes of getting, you know, insurance money, getting grandma's or mother-in-law's house.

01:46:25.200 Would you go to the extent of writing this full letter?

01:46:30.180 Well, it's an email.

01:46:32.500 It wouldn't take a whole lot to do it.

01:46:34.560 And apparently it's a real crypto address.

01:46:36.920 I don't know enough about that or how easy it is to research cryptocurrency accounts.

01:46:41.700 But, yeah, this happened a lot with other cases I've worked.

01:46:44.380 I had a heart surgeon who was accused of killing his wife, but the police in Pennsylvania couldn't prove it.

01:46:49.720 Next thing you know, these anonymous letters show up to his lawyers.

01:46:52.060 It's different.

01:46:52.960 Not a kidnapping looking for money, but these people put these, these letters together.

01:46:57.020 The nurse in, in northern New Jersey who killed her husband, chopped them up, put them in the Chesapeake.

01:47:01.560 She put a bunch of letters around North Jersey saying, oh, no, the mob did it. 0.98

01:47:04.960 Others did it.

01:47:05.580 She got convicted in court.

01:47:06.760 I testified in that case.

01:47:08.000 People do these kind of levers to cover their track.

01:47:10.560 They think they're original and clever, but they're really not.

01:47:14.120 There's actually a formula to how these things are, are, are, are written.

01:47:17.200 And just because the person knows where a watch may have been placed, if you're a real kidnapper,

01:47:21.140 you're going to have some real specific information.

01:47:23.440 You're going to have a, maybe a lock of hair.

01:47:25.220 The case in 1993, the tuxedo, tuxedo CEO in New York city, these guys lowered down,

01:47:31.060 they put them in a hole in the ground by train tracks.

01:47:33.120 They lowered down a tape recorder, had them talk into it.

01:47:35.720 And then they would put that over a, you know, an untraceable cell phone.

01:47:39.040 Even back then, um, there's a woman in Norway who went missing.

01:47:42.400 I actually know one of the people working on it.

01:47:44.120 And, uh, in 20, uh, no, it was about four years ago, I think.

01:47:47.940 And, uh, and, and, and there's a note left on the table.

01:47:50.720 She was missing.

01:47:51.680 No one ever saw her again, but the note was for a ransom amount.

01:47:54.880 Uh, so there are other cases that in phone calls are made in the Exxon executives case.

01:47:59.480 And they, cause they seriously wanted the money.

01:48:02.040 That was the reason for doing this.

01:48:04.540 Um, it doesn't seem these kidnappers are real serious now from what we know.

01:48:08.900 And I want to emphasize from what we know, and the family has every right to ask these questions.

01:48:13.580 It's not easy when it's your own mother or child, of course, but, uh, from an objective

01:48:18.120 viewpoint, demand that proof of life, put a reward out at the same time, and you'll transfer

01:48:23.220 it to a cyber account.

01:48:24.480 Once you get that proof of life, that would be my suggestion.

01:48:27.860 I mean, how difficult, obviously it's very, I think the answer is obviously very, very,

01:48:32.540 how difficult is it really for the FBI to trace the provenance of an email that went to three

01:48:40.680 different news organizations?

01:48:43.120 And also there's another electronic trail there somewhat in setting up the Bitcoin account,

01:48:49.040 I guess.

01:48:49.700 Although I do think they're very, we did look into that a little when we did our fraud week

01:48:53.020 and it's like, good luck, good luck tracking the Bitcoin, unfortunately.

01:48:56.440 But this seems like it should be within the FBI's capabilities.

01:49:02.420 Like Jonathan, do you have any thoughts on like, how hard can it be?

01:49:06.400 Well, it all depends on the, the, the person that was sending the email.

01:49:10.200 If they have a system set up like Nigerians do a lot of the times when they do these bank 1.00

01:49:14.720 fraud cases where, uh, they are broadcasting the, uh, the actual email from a different location

01:49:22.400 or they have a program that, that pushes it into a different location.

01:49:25.460 That's where it becomes a little difficult for the Bureau, but the, but the FBI and, uh,

01:49:30.420 their investigators that are specialized in this, they are really good at being able to,

01:49:36.200 uh, reverse engineer any type of, uh, tactic that, uh, somebody using an email would have

01:49:42.920 done.

01:49:43.320 But again, Megan, we look at the Nigerians and these bank frauds. 1.00

01:49:47.100 These are people that do tens of thousands of these almost on a daily basis.

01:49:52.160 So somebody who has never done, you know, a ransom email before, but maybe they know a

01:49:58.420 little bit about Bitcoin, they're more likely to get caught.

01:50:01.960 Hence the guy in California.

01:50:03.520 Yes.

01:50:03.980 Right.

01:50:04.440 So that makes sense.

01:50:05.800 I wanted to point this out real quick.

01:50:07.580 Um, I can, this is kind of a bottom line for me right now about where we are in this

01:50:11.080 investigation and some things that they could be looking at and they may very well be,

01:50:15.840 but what were the movements around that house before this?

01:50:19.940 Uh, I'm talking about days before this, we look at Brian Kohlberger.

01:50:23.500 He, you know, he was around there.

01:50:25.620 They, I think they said over a dozen times around that house.

01:50:29.180 And then the night that, uh, he went to the house, he shut his cell phone off on the way

01:50:35.500 there and turned it back on when he was on his way back home.

01:50:38.140 Those are very telling pieces of evidence.

01:50:40.480 And I would be looking at the family members like that.

01:50:43.420 I'd be looking at their cars because nowadays you can, the computers in the cars tell you

01:50:47.660 when it was turned on, when it was turned off, put in park, so on and so forth.

01:50:51.200 They can pull that information.

01:50:53.200 And then lastly, that pacemaker could still, it could still be broadcasting.

01:50:58.960 And because it went offline, it's still a Bluetooth, um, product.

01:51:04.180 So 10 to a hundred feet is the typical distance that a Bluetooth can be picked up.

01:51:09.900 And we do have technology in the bureau.

01:51:12.620 It has been declassified, but I still don't like to talk about it too much, but they are

01:51:17.080 very effective at picking up cell information.

01:51:20.660 So effective that they can tell you where a person is in a building, uh, if they need to.

01:51:26.620 So I think if, if she is somewhere in the vicinity of that home or somewhere where they kind of

01:51:34.480 get an idea, perhaps where an email went back to, um, they could go with this specific

01:51:39.640 equipment and potentially if they got close enough, still find the, uh, broadcast from

01:51:47.300 that pacemaker, but they'd have to be very close.

01:51:51.020 Can you imagine Jonathan, they're walking around the Tucson area with her phone, you

01:51:55.260 know, waiting for it, like with the Bluetooth on waiting for it to connect to something

01:51:59.780 and just walking in front of as many houses as they possibly can in, in areas that, you

01:52:04.260 know, look sketchy or like a place you might hide somebody.

01:52:07.160 And if it actually were to connect, that would be absolutely stunning and miraculous.

01:52:11.660 And we, we pray, we're all praying every day that this is how this ends, that they find

01:52:16.040 her, that this isn't a ruse, that kidnappers really do have her and that for some purchase

01:52:20.940 price or other pressure point, the Guthrie's can get her back.

01:52:25.360 I mean, I'm sure that's what they're praying every morning and every night.

01:52:27.900 If there's a way to have a holding, uh, account where they could put money into it and say,

01:52:33.140 we're not going to give you this money until we get proof of life.

01:52:35.880 Or if it was the big amount, we're not going to let you make the final transaction until

01:52:40.660 we get her body, but we don't have any, we can't touch it and bring it back, but you

01:52:44.040 can't grab it until we get this.

01:52:45.420 I don't know if that exists in Bitcoin, but if it does, um, that would be something that

01:52:50.980 I would, I would be looking into.

01:52:52.580 But again, like an escrow.

01:52:54.700 Sure.

01:52:55.200 Yes.

01:52:56.400 Yeah.

01:52:57.140 Well, I mean, the, uh, the, the, the Bitcoin piece of it, I don't, I feel like that's,

01:53:02.780 it is kind of sophisticated.

01:53:04.540 I feel like, you know, if this were a family member, obviously Savannah's worldly and all

01:53:10.680 that, but like, I don't think her siblings are as worldly.

01:53:13.600 The brother's a fighter jet pilot and doesn't seem to have, I don't know, he was late to even

01:53:18.400 get out to Tucson.

01:53:20.080 The, the sister Annie and her husband, they seem like working class people.

01:53:24.080 You know, she's, she's a poet, husband's part-time middle school teacher and plays drums in a

01:53:29.720 band.

01:53:30.500 I just, unlike the Nigerians, I don't think that they would necessarily have the sophistication 1.00

01:53:35.760 to like craft this, the email thing and like hold tough and like do the crypto account that's

01:53:41.100 untraceable and get the email that's untraceable.

01:53:43.220 That guy out in California got, got caught cause he was, you know, a nimrod. 1.00

01:53:47.060 He used some service that will change your phone number and make it look like you're not

01:53:52.220 calling from your phone.

01:53:53.180 And then they, they traced the fake phone number back to some account that had his email

01:53:58.220 attached to it.

01:53:59.480 And they're like, oh, hello, we know exactly who it is. 0.96

01:54:01.280 So he was a dope. 1.00

01:54:02.340 He was a stupid criminal, but the people setting up this whole Bitcoin thing don't seem like 1.00

01:54:06.200 unsophisticated people. 1.00

01:54:08.820 They seem to me more like people who've probably done this before.

01:54:11.900 So that could be, we did our fraud week.

01:54:13.740 We learned that these people like they operate like serious frauds.

01:54:18.240 Like the guy who tried to defraud me and my husband and my husband's mom, um, they had

01:54:22.320 a cast of characters playing actors, like different parts.

01:54:25.780 They had different phone numbers set up to like, you can call here.

01:54:28.300 This is the courthouse.

01:54:29.200 You can verify they're there.

01:54:30.100 This is another number.

01:54:30.900 We spoke to several different people who were involved.

01:54:33.740 There was an actress who had changed her voice to sound like my sister-in-law. 1.00

01:54:37.260 It was like crazy how elaborate it was.

01:54:39.120 So this, first of all, they have absolutely no feelings and would in a second try to hurt

01:54:44.400 Savannah and her siblings at their lowest and worst moment without even thinking. 0.99

01:54:48.960 They would not give a shit. 0.99

01:54:50.920 And, um, second of all, they really are sophisticated. 0.99

01:54:53.580 And if they think there's a deep pocket and they could get a couple million bucks quickly,

01:54:58.060 they'd absolutely do it, which makes way more sense to me.

01:55:02.420 That's exactly right.

01:55:03.540 That's the people who could jump in on this and use that is, are these professional people.

01:55:07.980 That's where the difficulty in validating this, you pay 25 million.

01:55:11.520 It may be going to some Nigerian group that does bank and Bitcoin fraud. 0.72

01:55:16.540 You know, that could be the case.

01:55:17.720 Okay.

01:55:17.860 So wait, so let's just follow that down the line for a second.

01:55:20.800 Okay.

01:55:20.960 Let's say we're blaming the Nigerians, but let's face it. 0.92

01:55:23.780 They deserve it. 0.62

01:55:24.640 Um, let's say it's Nigerians. 0.99

01:55:26.740 Okay.

01:55:26.980 Just for short form that leaves us with, okay.

01:55:30.780 So that the whole ransom thing is, is a fraud.

01:55:33.400 That's just a, that's a regular basic garden variety fraud.

01:55:37.660 Opportunist people.

01:55:38.660 Many people have been opportunist.

01:55:40.700 Right.

01:55:40.880 Thank you.

01:55:41.800 Um, that leaves us with the question of what happened to Nancy, right?

01:55:47.040 Okay.

01:55:47.240 So now under this scenario, she wasn't taken by anybody looking for ransom because there's

01:55:53.020 been no other demand other than this fake guy in California that we know of.

01:55:56.920 Jim would want us to say that, that we know of it's possible.

01:55:59.560 They've got something they're not letting out of the bag.

01:56:01.920 That may be something that somebody showed an AI version of Nancy or a version of Nancy

01:56:05.840 that led the family to say images can be easily manipulated.

01:56:09.060 So can voices please give us actual proof of life that could have happened behind the

01:56:12.640 scenes and none of us knows about it.

01:56:14.200 Makes that 41 minutes seem a lot more interesting, doesn't it?

01:56:18.300 But, but the family continues to say both Cameron and Savannah and Annie the day before

01:56:23.620 we need proof of life and we need to hear from you.

01:56:28.280 We need to hear from you.

01:56:29.280 We need a way of contacting you.

01:56:31.000 So it certainly doesn't sound like there's any person either behind the scenes unknown

01:56:35.020 to us or the person behind the Bitcoin demand that's actually willing to engage with the

01:56:40.000 family to talk to them, to make clear their needs or to provide the proof of life.

01:56:44.620 So if there's no proof of life coupled with the ransom demand, I don't think we have a

01:56:48.840 real kidnapper making it.

01:56:49.940 I just like Jim points out the person, if they're doing that is doing it to get, to

01:56:55.020 get paid.

01:56:55.960 So if what you need to get paid and you actually have Nancy is a picture of Nancy, you're going

01:57:00.020 to find a way to give it.

01:57:00.820 You found a way to set up the Bitcoin.

01:57:02.040 You found a way to, way to set up the email that's undetectable.

01:57:05.580 How hard can it be to, to set up an undetectable, like a Polaroid picture of Nancy and send

01:57:10.380 it.

01:57:11.280 Um, so that leaves us with a question of what happened to her.

01:57:15.100 Like somebody didn't just kidnap her for fun.

01:57:18.600 You're like, let's just kidnap Nancy and like, never give her back.

01:57:22.240 Like, that'll be a good time.

01:57:23.780 You know, it's not like a baby where like they get kidnapped and, and they can get sold.

01:57:29.240 You know, there's a black market for babies or, you know, for young children get sold into

01:57:35.640 sex trafficking.

01:57:36.620 It's horrid, but that, that are, those are things that happen.

01:57:40.620 There's no like market for 84 year old elderly women with heart problems where they're, I 1.00

01:57:47.960 don't mean this in the cruelest sense that it sounds, but like, where they can't do any

01:57:51.920 good for anybody.

01:57:52.860 You know, they can't be used in a way that's sellable.

01:57:56.720 No, no value.

01:57:59.280 Yeah.

01:57:59.840 So what is her value?

01:58:01.140 Monetary value.

01:58:01.760 Monetary value.

01:58:02.580 So then why?

01:58:03.400 Yeah, yeah.

01:58:03.700 Of course, of course, of course.

01:58:04.520 So what is her value and who does that value belong to?

01:58:08.880 So that, that is the question that you now have to ask.

01:58:11.260 If it's not a ransom, then who has a motive, either value and in the way of something they'll

01:58:17.480 inherit or because they have an emotional need to get rid of her through anger or some kind

01:58:25.220 of sacrifice?

01:58:25.420 So, but just, just before we even get to that, Jonathan, what we're saying is if there's

01:58:29.340 no kidnapper, then this is a murder.

01:58:32.380 That's what we're saying.

01:58:36.060 No, no one's just going to kidnap her.

01:58:37.860 Keep her alive for no reason.

01:58:38.700 None of us can think of an, yes, no one here can think of an alternate purpose.

01:58:42.780 Hence the removal.

01:58:43.860 For an 84 year old woman. 0.98

01:58:45.060 Hence the removal, not a kidnapping, which would also, if she was deceased inside the house

01:58:50.500 and her heart is no longer beating, you may only have droplets of blood, not somebody

01:58:56.080 bleeding.

01:58:56.880 And so that's a big difference as well.

01:58:58.600 There would be blood potentially where the injury occurred, or maybe she just died, you

01:59:03.860 know, because of her heart issue, but there could be some blood, but she, you would not

01:59:08.820 see blood a long ways.

01:59:11.280 Once a heart stops, the heart is, the pumping stops.

01:59:15.320 But wouldn't that be on the pacemaker?

01:59:17.880 The pacemaker was communicating with the phone until 2, 28 AM.

01:59:24.280 So the phone, which they have, they don't have Nancy, but they have the phone and the

01:59:30.980 app's data up till 2, 28 AM that morning.

01:59:34.460 Wouldn't they see her heart is no longer beating?

01:59:40.260 So I feel like that's, that's the argument against Nancy was murdered in the home.

01:59:46.260 That's why I understand, that's why I understand what, if there was an issue, if there was an

01:59:51.920 issue that, that pacemaker was reporting increased heart rate, you know, something that was an

01:59:58.360 incident that was occurring before it went offline, that is an important part of this, because then

02:00:02.700 you would see that she was actually assaulted or she was awakened.

02:00:07.140 And if that's closer to the beginning of that 41 minutes or at the end of the 41 minutes, that

02:00:12.500 may be telling one way or the other of how they reacted at that point, if that makes sense.

02:00:19.060 Okay.

02:00:19.400 But yes, but I, but, but back to my point, don't you agree if they had killed Nancy in

02:00:25.520 the home, we would know it thanks to that pacemaker, which was communicating with the,

02:00:32.080 with the phone up to 2, 28 AM.

02:00:34.120 Go ahead, Jeff.

02:00:34.420 So Megan, I'm just looking it up and it says for data transmission to a smartphone app, pacemakers

02:00:41.620 generally need to be within a recommended distance between one meter to ensure us.

02:00:49.980 Our information was it's like 30 feet that, that they'll stop.

02:00:54.280 Like if you get out about 30 feet away from your phone, your pacemaker will stop.

02:00:57.560 Which isn't very far.

02:00:58.940 But no, but, but, but my point is like, well, what's your point?

02:01:03.260 Like, I mean, do you think, I feel like if Nancy had been killed in that house prior to

02:01:07.660 2, 28 AM, we'd know thanks to the pacemaker.

02:01:10.580 That's what I, that's what I'm getting at.

02:01:12.120 And I agree with that if, if, if she was murdered in that house and her cell phone is there, that

02:01:18.080 data should, if we see a heart stoppage during that 40 minute timeframe, I feel like it would

02:01:23.480 be on the phone.

02:01:25.180 And the crime scene would reflect it too.

02:01:28.040 Sure.

02:01:29.180 Yep.

02:01:29.540 And we don't know whether it does, you know, the, the, the sheriff,

02:01:33.260 is being pretty good about not saying anything about the crime scene, though.

02:01:37.660 We know there's additional DNA and he did call homicide detectives first thing.

02:01:42.560 Um, but I, and maybe I'm wrong about, maybe I'm not thinking about something with that

02:01:46.180 pacemaker, but I just feel like if they're saying the pacemaker disconnected from the

02:01:49.260 phone at 2, 28 AM, then that means they were still communicating, which means that the app

02:01:56.060 on the phone would show her heart stopped.

02:01:59.960 That's the whole point of having the app is so you can see what's going on with your

02:02:03.020 heart.

02:02:03.360 And your doctor could potentially say, that's me.

02:02:05.240 The first thing they would check, did she, was she killed?

02:02:07.820 Did the heart beat all the way up to 2, 28 when the communications stopped?

02:02:11.900 And I'm sure it did.

02:02:13.040 Otherwise, why are we doing all this?

02:02:14.660 Why otherwise, why didn't they say we know she's dead?

02:02:16.640 You know, like that, that the sheriff's not in the business of wasting the nation's time.

02:02:20.940 So it must've been, she must've been alive as of 2, 28 AM.

02:02:24.820 Her heart must've still been beating.

02:02:26.640 And they, and when it stopped commuting, communicating, which means she was taken out of that house

02:02:31.540 alive.

02:02:32.660 And so now that's the next question.

02:02:34.280 If you're not kidnapping her for money, but you are kidnapping her, what the hell?

02:02:41.160 Like what, what, then what next in this case, what would be the point of doing that

02:02:44.880 to move her to another location to, to murder? 0.97

02:02:48.280 Well, one thing that comes to mind to me would be if this person is acting alone, it's very

02:02:55.120 hard to move dead weight.

02:02:56.360 I don't care how strong you are.

02:02:58.380 So was that something where they put a gun to her and said, get in the car. 0.99

02:03:02.820 And then they took her away from the residence to kill her.

02:03:06.000 Or were they operating in two people to remove her?

02:03:09.720 So that's one angle to look at as well.

02:03:12.660 What were you going to say, Jim?

02:03:13.740 Well, if this is a stranger and it was some kind of a burglary or some other reason to

02:03:18.540 go in there, we know, we haven't discussed this week yet at all.

02:03:23.880 The concept, I'm not going there, but I'll mention it murder for hire.

02:03:29.420 It doesn't always have to be someone directly goes and strangles, punches someone like that.

02:03:34.440 But if someone goes there and it's a stranger with no other reason, but maybe a burglary,

02:03:40.780 something like that, there's no reason to take the body with them.

02:03:44.180 Exponentially, you increase the odds of getting caught, arrested, all those things down the

02:03:47.740 line.

02:03:48.160 You have the hassle of disposing of a body.

02:03:50.180 If it's someone known to the person, there may be more of a reason, especially if you're

02:03:53.700 scared.

02:03:54.080 Maybe you haven't done this before to get that body out of there.

02:03:56.940 But this body could be just 100 yards away in a shallow grave.

02:04:02.140 And I'm assuming they've done everything they could around the house.

02:04:05.460 I'm hoping the trunk of her car has been open.

02:04:07.420 There's cases I've been familiar with over the years.

02:04:09.740 They search for days and the missing kid is inside the trunk of an old car.

02:04:13.460 I'm sure that's all been examined.

02:04:14.860 But it could be much closer to home than we even know.

02:04:18.960 Animal activity will reflect some of that.

02:04:21.080 I don't want to get too graphic here.

02:04:23.440 I still want to think she's alive.

02:04:25.020 But there's a whole different set of personality issues that come into play, whether they know

02:04:29.880 the woman, whether they don't know the woman, whether someone else had them go there to

02:04:34.040 do something to her.

02:04:35.220 Perhaps it went wrong.

02:04:36.900 And then what is the reason that someone would hire someone to go there to do something bad

02:04:41.580 to this woman?

02:04:43.220 It just boggles the mind.

02:04:45.620 And I think it was Jonathan who talked about puzzle pieces that even law enforcement are

02:04:51.120 dealing with.

02:04:51.960 We have even fewer puzzle pieces out here because we don't have all the facts about this.

02:04:56.620 So I think it's our best one.

02:04:58.540 I've had investigators come into me at Quantico to put together a profile or behavioral assessment

02:05:04.320 of a crime.

02:05:05.560 I'd say, here are the different options that you have to look into.

02:05:08.180 Here are the scenarios that have to play out.

02:05:10.620 And I think we've done a pretty good job today, Megan, of laying out the different options

02:05:15.340 in that regard.

02:05:16.280 And the police know more than we do.

02:05:18.240 And hopefully they're following through every single lead that we talked about and things

02:05:22.620 we don't even know about in terms of this investigation.

02:05:25.460 I will say at the local level, coming from the local sheriff's office and investigating

02:05:30.140 home invasions, whenever I hear home invasions, personally, I don't see home invasions in the

02:05:37.240 middle of the night on 84-year-old women.

02:05:38.980 When I see home invasions at the local level that we work, you're involved in gambling, dope,

02:05:44.760 prostitution, something like that, for just a random home invasion. 1.00

02:05:49.100 Look, it's 2026.

02:05:50.480 And again, yes, we know that the doorbells were disabled or things like that.

02:05:54.280 A normal, you know, just criminal, let's just call it a crackhead that's just trying

02:06:01.440 to break in and try to steal some money.

02:06:04.760 Usually, they don't have the wherewithal to do what, at least some of the things that

02:06:09.020 are in this timeline, I don't believe.

02:06:11.860 Well, and as far as we know, nothing was stolen.

02:06:14.180 Yeah.

02:06:14.420 And so it's incredible what Chad was just pointing out there.

02:06:18.720 And also, when James was pointing his things out earlier, is that in all of these different

02:06:24.200 aspects of criminality, there are typical behaviors and statistics that go along with

02:06:32.020 that.

02:06:32.200 A crackhead going in and sexually assaulting somebody is most likely not going to try to

02:06:37.900 bring the person out, and they're certainly not going to try to extort them to this level. 0.83

02:06:43.080 Somebody who is going to try to extort for ransom money, and that is their objective,

02:06:49.020 they are probably not going to be this vague, and they're probably not going to linger in

02:06:54.320 the house for 41 minutes.

02:06:55.720 And so you have to look at each one of these potential avenues and look at what is the

02:07:03.920 typical behavior, because it's all been done before, what does the statistics say that they

02:07:08.540 will probably do when this crime occurs?

02:07:11.840 And then we need to start looking, the investigators will look at all of those things.

02:07:16.360 And so as we go through these scenarios, this is how this whole system works.

02:07:23.760 But when you don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, it becomes very chaotic.

02:07:29.400 And especially for press, when they're doing this, dealing with a sheriff who may be great

02:07:33.000 at his job, but even Moses in the Bible asked God if his brother Aaron could go and speak for him

02:07:38.860 because he wasn't eloquent.

02:07:39.820 This sheriff would be very good to hand off the speaking part of this to someone else because

02:07:45.960 he's very confusing for the public.

02:07:49.060 Yeah, it is confusing.

02:07:50.420 I do want to mention the van.

02:07:52.920 The New York Post reporting that Nancy Guthrie's neighbor, Brett McIntyre, told the Post on Thursday

02:07:58.980 that he reported seeing an unmarked van to the police who asked him basic questions about

02:08:04.960 what he observed in the days leading up to the disappearance of her, of Nancy Guthrie.

02:08:10.800 Quote, it was somewhere on that street.

02:08:12.620 I think he means Nancy's.

02:08:13.900 It was a white van, full-sized with no printing on the sides.

02:08:18.000 It was parked on the street.

02:08:20.260 The McIntyres couldn't recall the exact day they spotted the van, but Brett said he did

02:08:24.380 report it to the police.

02:08:26.140 Now, when they say unmarked van, I think they just mean there was nothing on the sides.

02:08:29.680 I don't think he means there wasn't a license plate.

02:08:31.480 Maybe we're too tough on unmarked or on white vans.

02:08:35.640 I have to say, as a woman, I don't go anywhere near them.

02:08:38.780 You know, if I pull into a parking lot and there's a white van there, there's zero chance

02:08:43.100 I'm parking my car next.

02:08:44.080 And it's like, I grew up in the 70s.

02:08:46.020 That's exactly who's going to grab you.

02:08:48.600 You know, like, you know this.

02:08:50.760 We were the same way with the rider trucks after Oklahoma.

02:08:51.920 So I don't mean to impugn the white van.

02:08:54.460 Yeah, right.

02:08:55.380 I don't know.

02:08:56.180 It's like, this is shoe leather reporting and potentially police work.

02:09:00.680 D.C. sniper, white van.

02:09:02.380 That's all that they were looking for.

02:09:03.680 And of course, it was not a white van, a blue caprice or something.

02:09:07.460 You know, something I just want to throw out here.

02:09:09.380 I've interviewed serial offenders in prison long after they've been sentenced and convicted.

02:09:15.540 And you'd want to know about how they chose certain victims and how their ingress or egress.

02:09:20.260 And there's been at least a few of these guys that told me, sometimes even just taking

02:09:23.900 a confession across the table.

02:09:25.840 You know, why did it take you so long to do whatever you're doing?

02:09:28.000 And it could be something as simple as a, oh, I saw a police car go down the street.

02:09:33.340 Now, it would be interesting to get the patrol logs of the officers on duty that night.

02:09:38.180 Did by chance anyone go down, an officer go down the street?

02:09:42.340 And that scared the bejesus out of the people in there. 1.00

02:09:44.580 And that's why they spent the extra 40 some minutes, you know, in the house laying low.

02:09:48.980 And I'm not saying it was actually a police car.

02:09:51.040 It could have been some other factor, some other car even that went down the street.

02:09:54.880 And that scared them and said, we better lay low for a while.

02:09:57.400 Of course, the lights are out and whatever, white van, some other kind of a vehicle.

02:10:00.740 No doubt a vehicle took her away from the scene.

02:10:02.900 And they said, let's lay low and make sure they're clear.

02:10:05.300 So I know we kind of moved past the missing 40 plus minutes.

02:10:09.840 But there could be a very logical reason when they finally identify these people.

02:10:14.440 And they would say, well, that's why we did it.

02:10:16.200 That's why we hung around longer.

02:10:17.120 There has to be video somewhere of the car going in and going out.

02:10:21.420 At that point in time of the night, there has to be video footage just of a clip of a car so you can even identify the shape of the car.

02:10:29.060 But she, you know, she's 5'5". 1.00

02:10:31.220 She wasn't slender built. 0.99

02:10:33.240 So to carry somebody, you're not going to carry her down the block.

02:10:36.260 You know, they drove there.

02:10:37.660 So that vehicle had to have come there and left.

02:10:41.380 And I just, at 2 in the morning, almost 3 in the morning, that vehicle is going to be on a camera somewhere.

02:10:48.900 Yeah.

02:10:49.620 I mean, you'd like to think.

02:10:50.720 But one of the problems with this neighborhood is each lot is about an acre, 2 acres.

02:10:57.100 And they're spread out and they're remote.

02:11:00.020 Like, they're set back.

02:11:01.640 And so it's not like a normal neighborhood, you know, where, like, you have neighbors.

02:11:05.820 I can see my neighbors, you know, like my neighbors can see me.

02:11:09.420 I think it is possible in this particular neighborhood to maybe get in and get out without anybody's nest camera or ring camera detecting you because all the houses are set back.

02:11:19.280 It could be a bank down the road, though, or a grocery store.

02:11:21.460 I mean, just any cars in the vicinity of that area, you know, I'm in Arizona and it is a dead, it's a desert at night.

02:11:30.280 There's hardly anybody moving at night.

02:11:32.180 And so, especially in that type of location, if there's any store that has any video at all within, I would even say, 10 miles, I would try to pull some camera at that time to see any cars that might have been heading to or from at those particular times.

02:11:46.400 I would suggest that if they haven't done it, they should do it.

02:11:50.080 And, Megan, you know, I was I didn't work this when it happened, but I was later inherited the case of the 2008 bombing, pipe bombing of the recruiting state, the military recruiting depot in Times Square.

02:12:02.860 A guy rode up on a bicycle at three o'clock in the morning, put a pipe bomb on, rode all the way back over to like 32nd Street.

02:12:09.660 And we've never identified that guy.

02:12:12.000 And that's the most filmed place in the world.

02:12:13.980 Wow.

02:12:14.140 But we know a guy on a bicycle rode up at that time.

02:12:16.840 And that, I think, would help in this in this scenario.

02:12:21.220 I would be remiss if I didn't run the latest, like, Silence of the Lambs thing by you guys.

02:12:27.780 Did you hear that?

02:12:28.560 But it's it is interesting that it turns out Savannah used the exact same messaging in her video with her siblings that we saw in Silence of the Lambs.

02:12:40.100 We talked about it at the top of our first hour.

02:12:41.680 I'm just going to play the juxtaposition for you guys here in Sot Zero C.

02:12:47.560 She is full of kindness and knowledge.

02:12:51.620 Talk to her and you'll see.

02:12:53.560 I'm speaking now to the person who is holding my daughter.

02:12:56.580 Catherine is very gentle and kind.

02:13:02.320 Talk to her and you'll see.

02:13:06.860 Jim, you're the linguist.

02:13:08.760 Is that a coincidence?

02:13:10.800 Life imitates art, huh?

02:13:13.860 Ironically, in a way, in the in a fake kidnapping case, the JonBenet Ramsey case, because she was never left the house, found dead in the basement six hours later.

02:13:23.940 In that ransom note, there were three separate movie references, one from Dirty Harry, one from the movie Speed and a strong reference to the movie from the usual suspects with the whole foreign faction thing.

02:13:36.860 So now this is different.

02:13:38.100 That's the criminal.

02:13:38.980 You know, whoever wrote that letter.

02:13:40.260 That's for another episode.

02:13:41.680 But, you know, they borrowed from from that.

02:13:44.200 So here are the family members of of the kidnapped or missing victim, Mrs.

02:13:50.220 Guthrie, using words from a movie.

02:13:52.640 Is that subconscious?

02:13:54.160 Is that conscious?

02:13:55.360 There's no doubt the FBI and the BAU went over their their their script.

02:14:00.240 And it would have been their words, but they certainly wanted to, you know, maybe suppress some items and emphasize others.

02:14:07.320 And somehow I would like to think someone would have recognized those lines from the movie.

02:14:12.880 And again, I don't want to give too much sophistication to whoever the ransom note writer is or the team behind that.

02:14:19.540 If it is a for profit kidnapping.

02:14:21.320 But I'm not sure that would even make any difference to them.

02:14:24.020 I give credit.

02:14:24.700 I didn't pick up on that line.

02:14:26.060 I give credit to whoever did doing their research.

02:14:28.340 Somebody on the Internet.

02:14:29.760 Yeah.

02:14:29.920 Good.

02:14:30.220 Good for the Internet.

02:14:31.420 But I don't maybe someday, Samantha, when all this is over and done with with a happy ending.

02:14:38.220 Savannah, I'm sorry, Savannah.

02:14:39.560 She could tell us who, in fact, you know, came up with those lines.

02:14:42.480 So coincidence, maybe again, life imitating art, the subconscious out there.

02:14:48.480 It's it's it's not untrue what she's saying.

02:14:50.640 I'm sure her mother is a very nice person.

02:14:52.600 Savannah's mother.

02:14:53.660 And hey, talk to her again. 0.90

02:14:55.120 It comes down to Megan.

02:14:56.640 And what we said a few days ago, humanize Mrs. 0.99

02:14:59.540 Guthrie, give her core name, core mom, mommy. 1.00

02:15:02.360 And that's part of what they said there.

02:15:05.100 I guess it worked with Buffalo Bill.

02:15:07.020 I believe the senator's daughter was rescued eventually.

02:15:10.400 And so as bizarre as the extrapolation is here, let's hope it works out the same way.

02:15:16.140 It's not so odd a phrase that it couldn't have just come come up again.

02:15:20.460 You know, talk to her.

02:15:21.440 You'll see that it's not such such an odd phrase.

02:15:23.800 It couldn't have just been uttered spontaneously, although nothing was spontaneous in the video.

02:15:27.720 I'm sure it was all scripted.

02:15:28.960 Can I ask you guys about the Cameron video last night?

02:15:31.040 Because I do think it's interesting.

02:15:32.000 Now it's just him.

02:15:34.720 Now the sisters are not there.

02:15:37.140 Now just the brother who said almost nothing in the first video has the whole show to himself.

02:15:41.880 They shot the video like basically almost neck up, a little lower than neck up, but not like more of a body shot.

02:15:51.020 And that's interesting because it cut off his script, which he was very clearly reading.

02:15:55.340 In the first video with the three siblings, you could see their script.

02:15:57.860 They weren't trying to hide that they were reading a script.

02:15:59.920 But in this one, they shot it such that you couldn't see the script, but you could very clearly tell he was reading.

02:16:06.140 But he seemed to not necessarily want you to know he was reading.

02:16:09.060 Like he was here.

02:16:10.320 We'll play it.

02:16:11.300 This is Cameron Guthrie.

02:16:12.380 I'm speaking for the Guthrie family.

02:16:14.380 Whoever is out there holding our mother, we want to hear from you.

02:16:18.440 We haven't heard anything directly.

02:16:19.900 We need you to reach out, and we need a way to communicate with you so we can move forward.

02:16:25.380 But first, we have to know that you have our mom.

02:16:28.360 We want to talk to you, and we are waiting for contact.

02:16:33.060 Any thoughts on why he played such a bit role in the first video but was the sole player in the second one?

02:16:39.660 My take on this is, and I may be totally wrong, but he's a military man, and he's a fighter pilot, I think is what you were saying earlier.

02:16:46.800 I mean, that's an aggressive personality.

02:16:48.740 I don't think he was happy with that first video.

02:16:52.540 I think he – it was kind of a long video, and they looked like they were being held captive reading it.

02:16:59.040 And I think that he or somebody or a group of the family members wanted to do a different one.

02:17:05.460 That's what that appears to me.

02:17:07.200 And the flowery language and the things in the first one, I don't know what the relationship is between these siblings.

02:17:14.640 I don't – you know, it's hard to tell.

02:17:17.180 But, you know, that appears to me as though that was done with a cell phone as opposed to a camera with a script in front of you and a little bit more of he wanted to do that.

02:17:27.620 That's what it appears to me.

02:17:29.360 And, Megan, I brought up the other day the first video.

02:17:34.300 I'm not questioning the brother at all, but interestingly, he wore a baseball-type cap that I couldn't make out what it said.

02:17:41.220 He wore it again last night, the same cap, or whenever this was released and done.

02:17:46.740 And here I did get it blown up, and a friend of mine helped me.

02:17:49.820 Saguaro National Park, which is a national park near Tucson, not too far from where they live.

02:17:57.760 Could just be the hat he wears every day, or does it have some kind of meaning?

02:18:02.760 It's actually a physical geographical location not far from there.

02:18:06.520 But he – and he wore it both times in both videos.

02:18:09.840 I'm not putting a whole lot of stock into it.

02:18:11.960 He could easily say, hey, I go everywhere with that hat.

02:18:14.220 All right, that's it.

02:18:15.320 But for some reason, a geographic location was represented on his hat in the two different family and pleading to the kidnappers, whoever they may be, videos.

02:18:27.300 Be careful what it's worth.

02:18:28.180 And now he's actually – if we think about it, we heard really Savannah and her sister talk.

02:18:33.160 But thinking about it, he's now the patriarch of that family, right?

02:18:38.180 Dad's not around, all right?

02:18:40.500 Mom, and he's the only son.

02:18:43.080 He's the patriarch.

02:18:44.480 And maybe they're saying, hey, listen, you're the strong patriarch of this family.

02:18:48.440 You didn't say anything.

02:18:49.240 We want – let's put a video out from you.

02:18:52.560 I felt like he looked aggravated.

02:18:53.720 I think he is the oldest.

02:18:55.180 I think he looked aggravated in that first video myself.

02:18:58.100 Well, I think I – we were just wondering behind the scenes on the first video.

02:19:04.760 Maybe they didn't have the man speak too much because, you know, men can be more aggressive. 0.99

02:19:10.740 They're more threatening.

02:19:11.740 Maybe it's better to have the softer women, the tearful, soft women say, please, please, please, please. 1.00

02:19:17.880 Our mom, she's a grandma. 1.00

02:19:19.800 We love her.

02:19:21.260 Maybe that works better.

02:19:22.500 And then not having gotten a result, they tried a different tactic, you know, like sort of man to man.

02:19:28.980 I'm here.

02:19:29.800 I am the patriarch, and I'm subjugating myself to you.

02:19:32.700 I'm begging you to be in communication.

02:19:35.880 Like we're all here on bended knee.

02:19:38.080 Maybe they intentionally lined it up that way so they had like a third in reserve, you know, who could come forward and do his own video.

02:19:44.520 And I don't know what they do over the next few days.

02:19:46.360 I'm sure they're getting increasingly desperate if they have reason to believe that that Monday scary deadline is real.

02:19:53.800 I mean, I can only pray that this is all – that he was told to wear the hat, that Savannah was told to use no caps in her Instagram post,

02:20:00.940 that Savannah's language and the way she and her sister were talking were somehow codes for some other kidnapper ransom note that we have no idea about from somebody who has actual proof of life or something that could be –

02:20:15.800 I'm like, that's – I just feel like short of that, I feel – I don't feel hopeful, you guys.

02:20:20.540 I don't – I mean, does anyone feel hopeful at this point?

02:20:22.480 It's pretty shocking how a lot of these cases end up being just simply a bad family member or a bad encounter with somebody.

02:20:30.380 We still – we haven't even talked anymore about the person that called in saying that they were worried about the church issue.

02:20:35.820 I mean, it's astounding how many of these cases end up being where we go down all these roads and it just ends up being somebody who's a real dirtbag that did something in some cockamamie scheme that they thought they could get away with,

02:20:49.360 and they just didn't plan their – you know, through it, and so they end up killing the person.

02:20:54.240 And if that's the case, I think –

02:20:55.940 99.99%, right, wouldn't you say?

02:20:58.820 It's a lot.

02:20:59.660 Is that an accurate stat off the top of your – I think it's like the vast majority are exactly that.

02:21:04.860 This one's just so bizarre in so many ways.

02:21:07.000 You know, we're hoping for a better outcome than some nutcase got in there and hurt her or took her life, 1.00

02:21:12.340 and now we've been led falsely down this kidnapping lane.

02:21:16.020 You guys, you've been, like, doing yeoman's work on this.

02:21:19.140 We're so grateful to all three of you, and I'm sure more to come.

02:21:23.140 So thank you.

02:21:23.820 Thank you, Megan.

02:21:24.480 Thank you, Megan.

02:21:25.940 We're going to be following any and all developments in this case.

02:21:28.380 If there is anything significant, we will come live to you over the weekend,

02:21:32.260 and at a minimum, we'll be bringing you the very latest on Monday.

02:21:35.600 Thanks to all of you for listening.

02:21:36.780 Have a great weekend.

02:21:38.020 Hug your loved ones.

02:21:40.360 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

02:21:42.220 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - February 06, 2026

New Details About Guthrie Ransom Notes as DEADLINE Passes, and Notable Disappearance Timeline Change, with Ashleigh Banfield and More ｜ Ep. 1247

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