The Megyn Kelly Show - Nick Reiner Defense Ahead, and Brown U. Shooter Inaction, with Arthur Aidala and Matt Murphy, and Leadership Traits with Dakota Meyer

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00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.360 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:44.020 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.360 With so many high-profile criminal cases in the headlines right now, we needed today's Kelly's

00:00:50.180 Court.

00:00:50.500 And there is breaking news now on Tyler Robinson, the accused killer of Charlie Kirk.

00:00:56.320 We're going to take a look at that.

00:00:57.320 We're going to take a close look at the murders of Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle, as we

00:01:00.800 get new details on that case as well.

00:01:03.120 There is new video of Nick Reiner, the accused killer, their son, taken after the murders.

00:01:08.460 What defense could be in store as Nick hires a very high-profile and successful defense attorney?

00:01:15.240 Plus, police releasing new images of the suspected shooter at Brown University, but still disappointing

00:01:24.900 at these pathetic press conferences.

00:01:26.860 And by the way, what about the man named in the media earlier this week as the person of

00:01:31.900 interest, who turns out not to be a person of interest and, according to the attorney

00:01:36.220 general, has nothing to do with this case?

00:01:38.400 Can this guy sue?

00:01:40.240 Has he been defamed in the way Richard Jewell was for the Atlanta Olympics bombing back in

00:01:45.540 the 1990s?

00:01:46.340 Okay, but we're going to start with this bombshell report from the Washington Post about Charlie

00:01:50.960 Kirk's accused killer.

00:01:52.160 It literally just broke.

00:01:54.500 The Post reporting that Tyler Robinson's mother—we knew this—said that he had become more pro-gay

00:02:01.260 and trans rights-oriented, and that one person who knew him said he began to voice concerns

00:02:06.720 for transgender rights after Trump's win in November 2024.

00:02:11.020 I think that piece is new, but the Post has done a deep dive on messages from the online

00:02:16.440 platform Discord, where Robinson discusses Charlie's murder soon after it happened, and

00:02:24.400 we'll tell you what he said.

00:02:25.840 We begin today with MK True Crime contributors, Arthur Idala and Matt Murphy.

00:02:30.260 Arthur is a managing partner at Idala, Bertuna, and Caymans.

00:02:34.440 Matt's a former homicide prosecutor and author of the book, The Book of Murder.

00:02:38.260 They are the best of the best when it comes to legal analysis.

00:02:42.500 So subscribe and download to the hit show, everyone's watching, MK True Crime, on podcast

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00:02:58.040 Crime, we've got big plans for the new year, by the way, on that front, more announcements

00:03:01.780 to come.

00:03:02.240 So go to mktruecrime.com now.

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00:04:01.280 Arthur, Matt, great to see you guys.

00:04:03.180 Hi, they only watch because Matt's so handsome.

00:04:05.820 They're not watching for my big bald head, Megan.

00:04:08.000 I mean, for the record, I just, you know, I mean, I try to do a tie, you know, anything

00:04:15.240 to distract from the dome, but, you know, Matt gets all the fan.

00:04:18.740 You're just being modest.

00:04:20.480 But what we don't, we, we, what we do, but we don't publicize it is you have to be at

00:04:24.720 least a nine to even make it on MK True Crime.

00:04:27.360 So you're, you're selling yourself short.

00:04:29.200 Well, that's Ashley Merchant, but we can talk about that another time.

00:04:32.620 That is Ashley.

00:04:33.740 Ashley, she's a 10.

00:04:34.860 Okay.

00:04:35.980 Um, here are a couple of highlights from this Washington Post report, which is actually

00:04:41.380 pretty extraordinary on, um, on, on Tyler Robinson.

00:04:46.500 Here's just a, like an excerpt.

00:04:48.860 Um, this is the Washington Post trying to call him.

00:04:51.340 They've called, their reporters have been calling him since he got put in jail.

00:04:54.400 He doesn't talk.

00:04:55.540 They talked to him, just waiting for some sort of a reaction, which appears not to have

00:05:00.100 come.

00:05:01.120 I can't answer any questions.

00:05:02.400 He said to the Washington Post reporters, you're welcome to talk in four calls spanning

00:05:06.600 about 40 minutes.

00:05:07.560 He maintained that disciplined approach, listening silently as a reporter described what friends

00:05:12.900 and acquaintances has said about him.

00:05:14.860 He did not audibly react to hearing that Kirk's wife, Erica had publicly forgiven him.

00:05:19.540 Uh, him, he did not react, uh, in any inaudible way to the fact that Kirk had been awarded

00:05:25.140 the medal of freedom.

00:05:26.680 Eventually Robinson asked that the reporters communicate with him only in writing.

00:05:30.020 He did not respond to messages sent to the jail's email system and his attorneys declined

00:05:33.840 to answer questions for this report.

00:05:35.160 But they do report, and to me, I've got to say, overall, this looks to me like the Post

00:05:39.800 attempt to try to say, he wasn't a lib.

00:05:42.580 He was a conservative.

00:05:43.820 I don't, you guys probably haven't a chance to read it because it's very lengthy.

00:05:46.640 But they're, they, they give lip service to the mother's statements, the mother to her

00:05:51.980 statements that he had become much more enamored with pro-gay, pro-trans ideology in the year

00:05:58.140 prior to the murder.

00:05:59.740 They kind of, they have to mention that because it would be journalistic malpractice not to.

00:06:04.240 And it's been alleged in the indictment.

00:06:07.200 Uh, and then they spend the rest of this piece trying to prove that he was really apolitical

00:06:12.340 and his friends who knew him said, well, we didn't really see any of that.

00:06:16.820 But then they do talk about the fact that he was holding his trans furry lover roommate

00:06:22.820 who was crying about all the hatred towards trans people as Tyler Robinson stroked him and

00:06:28.840 tried to make him feel better about all the hate that it was out there and about how he

00:06:32.980 didn't like, quote, hateful people.

00:06:35.000 And we know he said he killed Charlie in those text messages right after he, the murder, because

00:06:40.060 there's, he was full of too much hate.

00:06:42.500 Some hate can't be negotiated out.

00:06:44.440 And the post tries to downplay what he wrote on the bullets saying it was just a meme.

00:06:49.600 Um, but really what they're writing about is a guy overall who was kind of listlessly going

00:06:55.700 through life.

00:06:56.500 He dropped out of Utah Valley or the Utah university he was in.

00:07:01.300 It wasn't UVU where Charlie was killed, but he dropped out.

00:07:04.020 He became, um, a tradesman, I think electrician, uh, learning that trade and was seen on site

00:07:10.960 balling his fists up, you know, walking around with his fists balled up to the point where

00:07:15.020 his coworkers would say, Tyler, what's wrong with you?

00:07:16.880 And he'd say, oh, that's just something I do.

00:07:18.380 I'm fine.

00:07:18.980 But he would eat lunch alone.

00:07:20.620 The only thing that ever animated him was guns that he would get really interested in.

00:07:25.640 There are some text exchanges with his friends about, uh, the election and how, uh, let's

00:07:32.240 see, there's fake news around it.

00:07:34.440 He thought Joe Biden might've been winning on the night of the election, but he wasn't sure.

00:07:38.160 Here's one friend writing to him, uh, in the fall of 2020.

00:07:42.240 I wish there was a simple solution against fake news, but there isn't.

00:07:44.760 I have my own opinions, but that's it Robinson pretty much.

00:07:47.540 See if there are any sources cited and check the accuracy.

00:07:50.660 If really any of it's not true, then it's fake friend.

00:07:53.940 I understand freedom of speech and it's cool, but it makes it so media can lie about anything

00:07:57.740 Robinson.

00:07:58.760 I wish at least shit like anti-vax wasn't protected under freedom of speech because it's speech

00:08:05.660 that actively harms people.

00:08:08.220 Talking about the anti-vax messages doesn't really sound like a conservative to me.

00:08:12.320 Um, after Trump was almost assassinated, they quoted a Robinson text, which they do note

00:08:19.480 that is all of his friends said they thought was a joke where he wrote snowflake liberals

00:08:23.660 can't shoot straight cause they're too busy being gay.

00:08:26.320 Of course, Robinson did appear to be gay.

00:08:28.720 He was having sex with his male roommate who had declared himself female and was a furry.

00:08:32.500 Um, and then they point out that he, uh, the roommate, his roommate viewed Trump's election.

00:08:39.080 This is his boyfriend as a loss for trans right rights and was distraught more than once.

00:08:44.380 A friend said he saw Robinson cradling his sobbing roommate in his arms.

00:08:49.620 Um, the roommate would erupt at friends who came to visit, who would say things about boys

00:08:53.700 and girls sports shouting repeatedly to shut up as Robinson sat nearby on a, on a couch.

00:08:59.740 The group went quiet before their gaming eventually resumed.

00:09:05.000 Um, then they talk about how he did a wordle.

00:09:09.340 He did a wordle like right before Charlie's assassination, uh, by the morning of September

00:09:15.860 10th, three days later, after this, this earlier exchange he had online, which is irrelevant.

00:09:21.580 Um, Robinson had made the, the drive North to Utah Valley university.

00:09:25.980 That's where Charlie was killed.

00:09:27.080 According to prosecutors, he texted his wordle score to his friend at 1128 that morning at

00:09:32.600 1151.

00:09:34.040 He allegedly walked onto campus and then made his way onto the roof of the building in

00:09:37.800 the courtyard below.

00:09:38.560 A crowd had gathered to hear Charlie at 1223 PM.

00:09:42.460 I mean, it's remarkable.

00:09:43.840 So the wordle score was texted to his friend at 1128.

00:09:46.780 Less than 60 minutes later, he shot Charlie, according to prosecutors at 1223 PM came the

00:09:53.700 crack of a single shot as a student pressed Kirk on his views of transgender people and

00:09:58.100 mass shootings.

00:09:59.240 Kirk slumped backward, uh, at 9 AM that morning, that very morning, uh, before the shooting,

00:10:08.580 Robinson's friend in new England sent, sent Robinson, the friend's world resorts.

00:10:16.220 He'd gotten chair in just two tries.

00:10:18.140 Robinson replied 21 minutes later.

00:10:19.920 It had taken him three.

00:10:21.220 It was their last exchange.

00:10:22.240 He's getting ready to shoot Charlie.

00:10:23.960 He's doing the wordle.

00:10:25.360 He's exchanging texts about the wordle.

00:10:27.460 Um, and then of course he would shoot Charlie and the bullet, the bullets would include

00:10:32.860 messages like, Hey, fascist catch.

00:10:36.220 Um, okay.

00:10:37.140 So that, those are the highlights, you guys.

00:10:39.680 All of this is interesting because clearly the shooters friends are starting to speak

00:10:44.940 out to the media, uh, in, in like drips and drabs.

00:10:48.200 And I do believe there's an attempt by the media to try to divert the narrative away from

00:10:52.600 he was a leftist.

00:10:54.280 I don't know.

00:10:54.960 He may have been a righty much in the way that, uh, Tyler Crooks who shot Trump, wait,

00:11:02.240 not Tyler, um, Thomas Crooks was a righty for a period of time, but then had shifted

00:11:07.640 left, notably leftward in the last year before that's also what appears to have happened to

00:11:12.920 this guy, Tyler Robinson.

00:11:14.520 Uh, but what comes in of what I've just said and is any of that relevant to you guys?

00:11:20.260 Arthur, I'll start with you.

00:11:21.120 Well, from a human point of view, it's relevant about how sick this guy is.

00:11:25.860 I mean, unfortunately in society, we've lost the concept of like, what it's like to kill

00:11:33.020 another person.

00:11:34.640 Like, you know, even if you looked at what happened in, in Bondi beach, the guy who took

00:11:40.880 the rifle away from the executioner, he didn't just, he didn't kill the guy who was killing

00:11:45.340 everybody else.

00:11:46.040 It takes a lot to kill someone.

00:11:48.520 And the fact that you are playing a game, a word game moments before you're about to

00:11:54.300 kill any, anyone, anyone is just like, it, I mean, to a jury to, uh, if you're trying

00:12:01.860 this case, if you're Matt and you're the prosecutor, I mean, it just shows you how, how this guy

00:12:08.280 doesn't just, he doesn't either doesn't care.

00:12:10.240 Or as the defense attorney, you want to talk about how sick he clearly was.

00:12:14.900 Um, the fact that the politicians and the media are trying to figure out, well, who, whose

00:12:20.340 team was he on?

00:12:22.100 Um, it's, to me, it's upsetting.

00:12:24.820 It should be everyone on the planet Earth should condemn what happened.

00:12:28.980 Megan, I haven't watched the video because of Charlie getting killed because it's just,

00:12:34.180 it's, it's too disturbing to me, but I have watched at this point hundreds and I'm not

00:12:39.620 exaggerating of Charlie Kirk videos and boy, oh boy, what a cool guy he was and the way

00:12:45.300 he conducted himself.

00:12:46.460 And it's hard for me to believe that someone, uh, who believed in the same things that Charlie

00:12:52.820 did.

00:12:53.120 And Charlie was clearly on the conservative side of things, although I hate all of these

00:12:57.340 labels, um, you know, would, would execute him.

00:13:00.520 Um, so, you know, good luck to the media saying, oh no, he was really a lefty who's, who's,

00:13:05.280 who's killing him.

00:13:06.260 He's really a righty who's killing him.

00:13:08.740 You know, the whole trans thing is very confusing to me.

00:13:12.120 I, I, I'm, and I'm not being a wise guy.

00:13:14.320 You weren't use this word furry.

00:13:16.100 I don't really know what that means.

00:13:17.540 I don't, I really don't.

00:13:19.120 It's not like a legal term.

00:13:20.860 Nobody does.

00:13:21.740 Okay.

00:13:21.980 Okay.

00:13:22.740 Okay.

00:13:23.640 Um, so I think.

00:13:24.860 I mean, it's been explained to me.

00:13:25.800 It's like the people who have anthropomorphic, I don't even know, like feature.

00:13:30.520 They, they, they like, they want to be like half human, half animal, and they masquerade

00:13:35.060 around in like animal gear.

00:13:37.620 They want to be treated like animals.

00:13:39.060 They want to make animal sounds and it's related to their sex lives as well.

00:13:43.340 It's like a sexual fetish and it is very closely linked with the trans people.

00:13:47.980 I mean, honestly, they're mentally, you know, it's in the law, it's called a mental disease

00:13:52.340 or defect.

00:13:53.100 That's all three dollars opinion.

00:13:54.560 If that's what you're thinking, like how you should go through life, the way you just

00:13:58.320 described it, that's a mental disease, a defect.

00:14:00.800 And maybe his lawyers are going to process, are going to try to put that kind of a defense

00:14:06.480 forward.

00:14:08.040 Oh, well, I mean, I think they're more likely to be pointing the finger at everybody.

00:14:12.140 I mean, you know, it's like, I think the defense is going to try to say, you know, I mean,

00:14:16.800 it was this guy, it was that guy, it was the other guy, it wasn't sweet Tyler who never

00:14:20.880 had a violent moment, who, you know, was some sort of a patsy.

00:14:24.460 I don't know what they're going to argue about Tyler.

00:14:26.080 I have little, I have no doubt that Tyler Robinson committed this crime and I think he will be

00:14:30.560 convicted.

00:14:30.900 But does any of this come in, Matt Murphy, like, or is it irrelevant because the prosecution

00:14:36.500 doesn't need to prove motive and they, if to the extent they do, it's written on the

00:14:41.080 bullets and in his confession.

00:14:44.080 Yeah, it's, it is relevant, Megan, and here's why.

00:14:49.140 That, it shows such a cavalier disregard, just like Arthur just said.

00:14:54.160 This can come in, they've got to attack Menzreya, they've got to attack, what he's thinking

00:15:00.100 at the time he does it, which means they can either go with a voluntary manslaughter, he's

00:15:03.460 so outraged by the things that Charlie Kirk is saying, and I'm with Arthur on this, if

00:15:08.060 you watch his videos, he is, he is center right, and he's trying to engage in the American

00:15:14.720 art of debate, and he's trying to sway people with words, and he's respectful to everybody.

00:15:20.340 So, that is going to come back and hurt him.

00:15:23.400 If I'm the prosecutor on that, that's a great fact, because that shows that he's cavalier

00:15:27.380 when, he's not angry, he's playing Wordle.

00:15:29.260 Like, he's not so outraged at some position or something that Charlie Kirk said, that

00:15:33.780 they're going to be able to say, hey, look, he's, he is coming at this from a perspective

00:15:38.260 where he's trying to defend the honor of his, of his partner.

00:15:43.100 You know, so I think it, there are a lot of ways it can come in, it can also come in,

00:15:47.180 and correct me if I'm wrong on this, Arthur, if you, if you disagree, but if they try to

00:15:50.960 go with some mental health defense on this, that, that's a big roadblock for the same

00:15:56.800 reasons, right?

00:15:57.520 Because he's cogent, he's, I mean, and Wordle's tough, right?

00:16:01.040 And if he's bragging about his Wordle score, then his brain is working.

00:16:04.540 There's for-

00:16:05.160 But wait, wouldn't, wouldn't you argue, if I were a defense lawyer, I would say, this

00:16:08.360 is proof he didn't do it.

00:16:09.740 Like, look how calm he is.

00:16:11.040 Yeah.

00:16:11.560 He didn't do it.

00:16:12.200 He wasn't there.

00:16:12.840 You know what?

00:16:13.280 I hope they, I hope they ran that defense, Megan, because it's so obvious when you go

00:16:18.220 through the facts of this thing and the text messages that he wrote afterwards, it's his

00:16:21.780 grandfather's gun, which by the way, is a hundred year old Mauser rifle, which when it,

00:16:26.740 when all the gun debate stuff came in after this, as everybody loves to jump on it, like

00:16:30.680 we're seeing in Australia now, right now with the Bondi beach, we're going to solve this

00:16:34.260 with more gun control.

00:16:35.980 This is a type of rifle.

00:16:37.840 The design is pretty much trying to be controlled almost nowhere.

00:16:42.380 This is, it's not as no evil features, like they call it in California.

00:16:45.960 This is an ancient gun that, that is still totally effective because they're made of

00:16:50.500 metal.

00:16:51.120 But, you know, another thing, going back to the, to the Washington Post article, and I'm,

00:16:55.800 I agree with Arthur a hundred percent on this.

00:16:58.700 The first line in the article is right-wing political activist, Charlie Kirk.

00:17:03.700 And this is something that we've heard a lot in the media just in the last, you know,

00:17:07.720 in the last few days here with the horrible murder of Rob Reiner that I know we're going

00:17:11.140 to get into, you know, when you go to a scene, I know, I know Arthur's done a bunch of these

00:17:15.080 too, but when you actually go to a murder scene and you see a human being lying on the

00:17:19.000 floor, they are a human being and right-wing political activist, the way that was written,

00:17:24.960 it almost dehumanizes this man from the first line of the article.

00:17:28.860 It's like that, that alienates, you know, in the, in the hot-blooded divisive times that

00:17:33.880 we're living in and alienates all the readers on the other side, whatever that means.

00:17:38.400 And it's, Arthur is exactly right.

00:17:41.500 He's a human being, especially once somebody is dead.

00:17:43.840 And unfortunately, I have watched that.

00:17:46.300 I mean, I've seen a lot of, a lot of videos where murders have taken place, but anybody

00:17:50.220 who is interested in the furry world, I had one of these cases, it was prosecuted by my

00:17:55.180 unit out of Westminster.

00:17:56.820 It was the furry community and it was a horrific triple shotgun slaying in the city of Westminster.

00:18:03.440 And it's a, it's a weird world.

00:18:05.780 There's an episode on the, on the show Entourage on HBO where one of the, one of the guys meets

00:18:11.620 a furry and it's a woman who sends him a rabbit suit because that's, she's into the sexual side

00:18:19.100 of that.

00:18:19.620 And, and it's actually, that's a, that's a comedy.

00:18:22.240 It's worth, worth a watch if you want to educate yourself in a, in sort of a funny way.

00:18:26.500 There's a lot of, I don't think Arthur's tuning in on that.

00:18:28.560 There's a lot of things I would like to learn about, you know, Megan, I didn't know if you

00:18:32.100 were throwing around a slang.

00:18:33.200 Like, I swear, I'm a New York city trial attorney for 30 some odd years.

00:18:37.160 I've never, this is the first time I've ever hearing of this concept, but you know, Matt.

00:18:42.240 What?

00:18:42.580 You got to get out more.

00:18:43.540 You got to get online more.

00:18:45.400 Or not.

00:18:45.660 My four year old and nine year old isn't really, a furry to my daughter is a very, it's

00:18:50.260 something she wants Santa Claus to bring her next week.

00:18:52.060 Um, yeah, the fact that, no, they're, I mean, they're like in colleges, like that, you know,

00:18:58.020 when your kids, well, yeah, yeah, your, your one son's going off to college.

00:19:01.700 Like they're, they're popping up.

00:19:03.480 Luca goes to Iona.

00:19:04.680 It's a Catholic university.

00:19:06.300 I'm not exactly, I know he goes to fast on Sunday.

00:19:08.660 I'm not sure what's going on there.

00:19:10.060 Maybe it's good call, but I mean, the fact that, well, whatever it's, it appears to have

00:19:14.620 been, I mean, it was the boyfriend of Charlie's alleged killer.

00:19:18.780 Uh, he was into furry culture and this kid had declared himself trans as well and was

00:19:23.740 a hot mess.

00:19:24.480 According to lots of posts online from people who are frequently in their apartment was growing

00:19:29.280 weird mold experiences, allegedly reportedly like all over the apartment where he was like

00:19:34.240 a hoarder and growing bizarre bacterias in the apartment that there was a lot of drugs

00:19:39.500 again, allegedly reportedly.

00:19:41.180 Thanks Maureen.

00:19:42.360 Um, so there were, this was a very unhealthy household and Tyler Robbins, I don't know, chicken

00:19:48.260 egg.

00:19:48.680 I don't know.

00:19:49.080 Tyler Robinson was raised by a nice family and conservative parents who seem to have

00:19:53.940 loved him very much, taught him family values.

00:19:57.240 Maybe he was off.

00:19:58.280 He does seem off to me.

00:19:59.280 He seems like a spectrum, um, someplace located on the spectrum, potentially when you hear him

00:20:04.020 talk, his academics were very strong, but he was very socially weak.

00:20:08.540 That combo, you know, was not infrequent.

00:20:11.060 And the behavior, like I mentioned on the site of his electrician apprenticeship, um, very,

00:20:17.940 very focused in the online world and the gaming community and very online and including the

00:20:22.540 references on his bullets.

00:20:23.940 In any event, uh, I think they've got him dead to rights.

00:20:26.660 And, and I actually want to ask you a question about this because I asked Kash Patel this

00:20:31.840 when he came on two Fridays ago.

00:20:34.100 The, the one thing that stinks, I believe Tyler killed, uh, Charlie, no question, but

00:20:39.640 the one, the best point I think the so-called conspiracy theorists have, and I don't mean

00:20:44.300 to be dismissive of them because they're just pursuing other possibilities, which is fine.

00:20:48.080 Um, is those text messages sound bullshit.

00:20:52.900 They, they do sound very like, it was not you, was it?

00:20:57.480 It was I, you know, it was like, they sound very weird and not like the, the text of a,

00:21:05.040 you know, 22 year old guy or two, two 20 some odd year old guys.

00:21:09.720 And I wonder, Matt, let me ask you, like, how did they get that text exchange in?

00:21:15.260 And is there going to be hay made, do you think by the defense attorney saying, obviously

00:21:20.800 that's not from Tyler.

00:21:22.100 That sounds like a fake plant.

00:21:23.660 Cause it's one thing to talk about that on a podcast as this smells fake.

00:21:29.360 And it's quite another to make that argument in court.

00:21:33.640 Right.

00:21:34.120 That's a tough one.

00:21:35.140 Um, because look, it's like the Brian Walsh member that we, that we all just watched.

00:21:39.360 He got on a computer and did all kinds of incredibly incriminating searches, like how to get rid

00:21:44.620 of a body after a murder.

00:21:46.000 People really do send stupid text messages like that.

00:21:49.060 And, um, it's, you know, they, they're going to have a forensic, um, chain of evidence.

00:21:55.260 They're, they're going to have a forensic, um, specialist come in and break down those

00:21:59.740 cell phones and they can explain the whole thing.

00:22:01.740 That is, I know Arthur's dealt with these before in court.

00:22:04.680 I certainly have.

00:22:05.500 It's very powerful evidence.

00:22:07.320 And when you break it down and, you know, you have some, uh, gumshoe, probably an FBI

00:22:12.980 agent on that because a lot of counties contract with the FBI for cell phone analysis and that.

00:22:18.180 And they come in and they're like, you're like cartoon character, G-Man.

00:22:21.640 They come in in their suit.

00:22:22.780 It's like Joe Friday, like just facts, ma'am.

00:22:25.200 They're very, very good at what they do.

00:22:27.880 And they explain the technology and they will have taken those cell phones and they will

00:22:31.560 have found those text messages.

00:22:32.700 And it's a tough argument to make that somehow they planted it.

00:22:36.100 And like you said, Megan, you know, conspiracy theories and people on the internet can speculate

00:22:40.280 about all kinds of things.

00:22:41.520 But when the rubber hits the road in a courtroom and you, you dust off that book with the rules

00:22:46.460 of evidence, um, that's a tough argument to make to a jury that's taking it seriously

00:22:51.600 and following the law.

00:22:52.780 So I don't know what their defense is going to be.

00:22:54.760 Arthur is they're, they're probably going to have Lance Twiggs, the furry trans roommate who

00:23:00.260 they have said is cooperating with law enforcement, take the stand and say, yeah, I had that text

00:23:06.500 exchanged with him.

00:23:07.420 So that, that adds a new element to this, this fact pattern.

00:23:11.440 But I will tell you, Megan, I got a hung jury and I'm going to quit over the nine to three

00:23:15.660 for not guilty on what I, what I thought was pretty damning evidence against my client, uh,

00:23:22.380 regarding messages going back and forth.

00:23:24.760 And I was able to break it down enough where I said, look, it just doesn't make sense.

00:23:29.020 Use your New York city common sense.

00:23:31.080 Someone would not do this, et cetera.

00:23:32.980 And the people believe me, um, he did go to trial with another lawyer and got convicted

00:23:37.320 in 30 minutes.

00:23:38.040 But anyway, um, if, if, if his furry friend comes on and testifies and corroborates this

00:23:45.600 now, you know, now you're in a whole different level of, uh, of corroboration.

00:23:50.680 And also you're, you're saying that, you know, Tyler was off to begin with, um, on, on several

00:23:56.740 ways.

00:23:57.220 And, and it's, if you're in that state after you executed someone and it's an international

00:24:04.740 story, who knows where your brain is going and how you're conducting yourself and what

00:24:08.820 you're writing and what you're saying.

00:24:10.060 I, I think you're doing wordles and then writing confessions.

00:24:15.440 That's how it looks here.

00:24:17.140 Um, I mean, according to the Washington post in any event, and according to the prosecutors

00:24:20.160 in the case of the confession, here's the other question.

00:24:22.880 The, the prosecutors are alleging, you know, they caught him because they had video of the

00:24:29.940 alleged shooter and, um, they put it out.

00:24:33.680 The FBI put out a picture of, of him and it was a much better picture than we've seen of

00:24:37.100 the Brown university shooter and he wasn't wearing a mask.

00:24:40.080 And you could, you could see a lot more of his face.

00:24:42.400 He had a low baseball cap, but you could see the bottom half of his face and his outfit,

00:24:46.580 which was also telling.

00:24:48.240 And, um, they also put out the picture of the gun, which they found in a nearby grassy

00:24:52.600 area.

00:24:54.000 And that's what led his parents to recognize him and recognize that gun, which as you point

00:24:58.200 out, Matt was so distinctive and was a family heirloom that came from Tyler's grandfather.

00:25:02.700 But what happened from there is the parents called Tyler reportedly, according to the

00:25:09.040 prosecutors, and he confessed, he confessed to the parents.

00:25:12.380 And then the parents brought in a family friend who was both a preacher and had a relationship

00:25:18.760 to law enforcement.

00:25:19.540 Like he was sort of an off duty sheriff type.

00:25:22.060 I can't remember what the exact title was.

00:25:23.800 And that guy brought in Tyler for the surrender and, you know, the, the negotiation, or, or I

00:25:29.660 don't know if he confessed to the police after that or not, but can you make, you can't make

00:25:33.620 a spouse testify, Matt, against his or her spouse, but can you make a parent, can you

00:25:39.160 make the mom and dad take the stand and say what he told them?

00:25:43.160 Yes, you sure can.

00:25:44.660 They may not like it.

00:25:45.600 Um, but yeah, it's not a, it's not one of the privileged communications.

00:25:48.880 That's essentially psychotherapists, priests, and your spouse.

00:25:53.380 Um, and that's about it.

00:25:54.700 Um, so yeah, you can make a parent testify.

00:25:57.920 Um, and, and remember this is Utah and, uh, I, I practice in California.

00:26:04.800 Arthur is the, is the man of New York city.

00:26:07.160 Um, which by the way, that last thing, that's why I would hire Arthur if I got in trouble

00:26:11.140 in New York, because if I had damning text messages, he's the only guy I can think of

00:26:15.400 that might be able to get me off the hook.

00:26:16.840 Probably Gary goes in LA, but it's Arthur out here.

00:26:19.240 But look, we're talking about, this is a really serious case.

00:26:21.860 We're talking about Utah as a prosecutor, a Utah jury is a dream jury and they're going

00:26:28.020 to come in and they're, and I have no doubt they'll be fair.

00:26:30.420 They will follow the law, but that is a, that is a very good, it's called a venire or a jury

00:26:35.820 pool, um, for, for the prosecution, especially in that County.

00:26:40.220 And, and they're, they're not, I, you know, in LA, those arguments can carry the day sometimes

00:26:46.660 those crazy conspiracy theories, New York.

00:26:48.740 They certainly can, uh, Utah, that is a, that is a tougher road to hoe.

00:26:53.240 Uh, that is a, that's a tough one.

00:26:55.240 And that's why I, you're right.

00:26:57.060 And that's why I, there's rumors out there now that, uh, the feds are trying to get involved

00:27:02.000 with this case.

00:27:02.780 Like the feds, you don't.

00:27:04.520 Oh yeah.

00:27:05.020 Just to let the audience know what we're talking about.

00:27:06.980 There's a report today from NBC news that the DOJ is weighing quote, novel federal hate

00:27:13.520 crime case against Charlie's alleged killer, weighing how to bring federal charges against

00:27:19.040 the shooter, including a quote, novel legal theory that it was an anti-Christian hate

00:27:24.720 crime, which could potentially give the feds jurisdiction.

00:27:28.840 He's facing multiple state charges in Utah at the moment, but to make it federal would

00:27:33.980 give like a backup lane of prosecution.

00:27:36.420 If the Utah prosecution fails, go ahead, Arthur.

00:27:38.960 Yeah.

00:27:39.180 I mean, including, I believe the death penalty they're seeking in the state of Utah.

00:27:43.520 So like, you know, like I respect the federal system, but sometimes, you know, just step back.

00:27:50.140 The feds are not, they don't do murder cases because people understand that state, uh,

00:27:55.720 prosecutor's office handles straight up murder cases.

00:27:58.500 And this is a straight up murder case.

00:28:00.540 Yes.

00:28:00.780 There's political issues, et cetera, but let's look at the actual facts and the elements of

00:28:05.820 the crime.

00:28:06.760 No one's going to prove if someone's a Republican, a Democrat, a conservative, a liberal, or anything

00:28:10.460 else.

00:28:11.100 It's, you know, at this time, at this place, did you cause the death of Charlie Kirk by

00:28:15.500 firing a firearm and it causes death?

00:28:17.640 Yes.

00:28:18.040 Period.

00:28:18.400 Amen.

00:28:18.760 Guilty.

00:28:19.200 End of story.

00:28:20.280 Judge.

00:28:20.600 What's the sentence?

00:28:21.400 Life in prison.

00:28:22.460 Death penalty.

00:28:23.440 Like, we're good.

00:28:24.660 Like, we don't need you to come in and start manipulating and masticating the laws, the

00:28:30.040 federal laws to figure out how to bring a federal case.

00:28:33.360 You know, they did this with Puffy.

00:28:34.900 But what, isn't it a decent backup?

00:28:36.880 Isn't it a good backup?

00:28:37.680 Like, in case the Utah case goes south?

00:28:39.500 Hopefully you don't need a backup, number one.

00:28:42.020 But, you know, they did this with Sean Combs' case where, oh, the feds had to come in and

00:28:46.620 take this over.

00:28:47.600 Now, there may have been a statute of limitations issue, but on that case, that video of Sean

00:28:53.100 Combs beating up the young woman there, Casey, whatever her name is, Cassie, like,

00:28:57.240 that's a slam dunk conviction.

00:28:59.300 A kid who's still in law school would get a conviction on that case.

00:29:02.140 And he would have gotten a lot more time in jail than 40-some-odd months that he's going

00:29:06.320 to wind up doing.

00:29:07.420 So, you know, sometimes the feds step in and they wind up making things worse than making

00:29:12.200 things better.

00:29:13.920 I feel like, I don't know.

00:29:16.220 So far, I have no reason not to trust in the competence of the Utah prosecutors.

00:29:21.300 They, unlike what's happening at Brown University, they, for me, have done nothing other than instill

00:29:25.840 confidence.

00:29:26.640 I haven't seen Keystone cop-like behavior out there.

00:29:29.660 So I believe in them.

00:29:31.140 The one thing that's so annoying, though, I'll say this, Matt, I mean, you've tried so

00:29:34.520 many cases.

00:29:35.980 The doubters that Tyler Robinson had anything to do with this are out there over and over

00:29:39.560 on the internet.

00:29:40.500 Like, I see tons of comments to this effect.

00:29:42.440 Why doesn't the FBI come out and update the evidence?

00:29:45.080 Why?

00:29:45.400 It's the FBI's fault that there are conspiracy theories because they're not telling us what

00:29:50.280 they have.

00:29:51.100 Like, why don't they explain this?

00:29:52.260 Why don't they explain that?

00:29:53.080 And it's like, first of all, this is a state prosecution.

00:29:55.880 It's not an FBI case anymore.

00:29:58.660 And second of all, when do prosecutors do that?

00:30:02.560 They come out sometimes and make an initial statement about the case and why they've indicted

00:30:07.060 this person.

00:30:07.860 But I don't remember a case other than with an inappropriate prosecutor where they continue

00:30:12.680 running out to the cameras to say, oh, I just got this.

00:30:15.460 Oh, let me explain this.

00:30:16.860 Oh, and I saw a show that questioned my evidence on that.

00:30:20.340 And so I'll explain to you why that theory doesn't make sense.

00:30:23.540 Well, you're exactly right.

00:30:24.960 And look, so is Arthur.

00:30:26.420 I totally agree.

00:30:29.080 Murders are state cases.

00:30:30.340 A lot of people don't know this.

00:30:31.640 And that kind of reminds me a little bit of the ProBurgers on the Brian Koberger case.

00:30:36.380 Remember that, Megan?

00:30:37.080 He had a whole cheering section.

00:30:38.980 People were putting money on his books.

00:30:41.280 It's a bunch of, you know, well-meaning lunatics who think they know better because they have

00:30:47.200 a friend who sent him some friggin' podcast on a conspiracy theory.

00:30:51.420 It is unethical.

00:30:53.800 A lot of people don't know this.

00:30:55.000 It is unethical both in the modern rules under the ABA, but in California, the professionals

00:30:59.740 prohibit a prosecutor from releasing evidence during a pending case.

00:31:03.200 It's like the press conference that we saw with Nathan Hockman yesterday in LA.

00:31:07.440 He did it exactly right.

00:31:09.160 So going back to that, though, the feds, they're really good at a lot of white-collar stuff.

00:31:16.980 And they're not good at murders.

00:31:20.600 This is, at the end of the day, as much national attention and interest as there is, this is

00:31:25.540 a state case, state prosecutors and murder cases, fed prosecutors, federal prosecutors

00:31:30.640 are really good at white-collar crime.

00:31:32.420 That's basically the way.

00:31:33.420 And again, Arthur's right.

00:31:35.920 I'm agreeing with him so much at this point.

00:31:38.120 But look, Diddy's a perfect example.

00:31:40.720 It really is.

00:31:41.240 But the reason why the feds had to go after Diddy, Megan, is because George Gascon, who

00:31:44.960 was a terrible DA in Los Angeles, wasn't pursuing any of those, like that slam dunk domestic

00:31:52.960 violence case that we saw regarding the beating of Cassie Ventura, that was not being pursued

00:31:57.420 in state court because the district attorney was terrible, in my opinion.

00:32:01.840 So that's why the feds had to come in.

00:32:03.560 This is one where the Utah authorities have this in hand.

00:32:07.400 This goes to the 10th Circuit, by the way, Utah's 10th, not 9th Circuit, which is the

00:32:12.100 most liberal federal circuit in the country, which means this guy really has, they're going

00:32:16.840 to convict him based on this evidence, and it's going to be upheld on appeal as long as

00:32:21.160 they don't do stupid things like releasing evidence that they have to appease people online.

00:32:28.360 Well, the other thing is, you tell me, Arthur, but let's say the mom and the dad find some

00:32:34.260 reason to change their story.

00:32:35.500 I misremembered what Tyler said.

00:32:39.100 That's not how it went down.

00:32:40.280 He didn't actually confess.

00:32:41.480 I just, you know, I had my questions about it, but he didn't confess.

00:32:45.380 Then you put that preacher slash cop on the stand, the one that they called saying he just

00:32:52.120 confessed, the one that brought him in, and that guy is going to tell the truth.

00:32:57.420 And it's not going to be hearsay, Tyler to the parents, the parents to him, because the

00:33:03.360 parents will be hostile witnesses at that point.

00:33:05.580 There'll be an impeachment, right, through this other witness of what the parents told

00:33:09.840 them.

00:33:10.560 So either way, they're going to get Tyler Robinson's alleged confession before this jury.

00:33:15.940 Am I wrong?

00:33:16.640 No, I don't.

00:33:17.300 I don't think you're wrong.

00:33:18.500 The bigger point, though, about the feds and all of this is, again, we shouldn't.

00:33:25.200 Obviously, everyone wants the proper person to be convicted of this crime.

00:33:29.460 I don't know anyone who would disagree with that.

00:33:32.120 But if a jury finds that a prosecutor doesn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt,

00:33:38.900 the feds shouldn't then create a new law just to go after a guy the way they did here in

00:33:45.560 Manhattan to go after Trump.

00:33:47.200 They created a new criminal law that just didn't exist before.

00:33:51.320 And they totally mishmashed the statute of limitations because we want this guy.

00:33:57.020 Once we start doing that, once we start bending the rules and changing the rules and creating

00:34:02.140 rules to get one individual, that's the end of our society and at least the criminal justice

00:34:06.700 system.

00:34:08.520 OK, let's keep going, because I do want to talk about the Reiner case, too.

00:34:12.380 There was new video released yesterday showing Nick Reiner calmly strolling near his parents'

00:34:18.960 home hours before the murders.

00:34:21.640 This was obtained by The New York Post.

00:34:23.700 Let's take a look at it.

00:34:24.460 It's video one.

00:34:27.020 It's just a sidewalk.

00:34:29.860 This is just him walking for the listening audience.

00:34:31.860 He has a bag over his left shoulder.

00:34:33.340 He's walking calmly.

00:34:35.220 Doesn't look irate.

00:34:36.500 Doesn't look out of his mind.

00:34:38.500 Looks kind of normal.

00:34:40.640 He's walking past the gas station with a hat.

00:34:44.420 He has not yet murdered anybody, allegedly, and looks within his wits for what it's worth.

00:34:53.020 Then we have video of him purchasing a drink at a gas station moments before he was arrested.

00:34:59.760 This is an ABC News video.

00:35:02.280 Here he is.

00:35:03.080 Once again, he's got a bag over his left shoulder, it appears.

00:35:06.200 And he's kind of meandering around a convenience store.

00:35:09.340 And again, does not look out of his mind, deranged in any way, disturbed.

00:35:17.520 And this is after, this is after, again, the murder.

00:35:21.740 One more video I want to show you.

00:35:23.020 This is of him surrendering on an L.A. street as the cops corner him.

00:35:29.160 This is a little harder to see, but you can see a bit.

00:35:32.260 Hold on.

00:35:32.740 Where did we get this?

00:35:33.420 Oh, this is from the New York Post.

00:35:34.760 Okay.

00:35:35.840 The law enforcement has since said he went into custody willingly.

00:35:40.280 He didn't resist arrest.

00:35:42.760 Hold on a sec.

00:35:43.500 You can see the cops.

00:35:45.280 You can't really see the defendant at this point.

00:35:49.300 He's behind the car.

00:35:50.360 But you can see the cops are not in like a terror stance that we sometimes see when somebody

00:35:55.180 resists or pulls a gun or a knife on them.

00:35:57.480 They actually look pretty calm.

00:35:59.000 They far outnumber the one guy.

00:36:01.360 But he was brought into custody without incident, according to all reports.

00:36:06.460 And I mention all that and show all that because it is evidence, Matt, and it could become

00:36:11.840 relevant as more and more people question whether this gunslinging lawyer who just got hired

00:36:18.160 to represent Nick Reiner, who's been very successful, at least in the Karen Reed case, in getting

00:36:24.040 an acquittal, is going to argue that he's not guilty by reason of mental defect, that he

00:36:31.400 was out of his mind on drugs or had a lifelong struggle with mental illness that manifested

00:36:36.660 the night that he took his parents' lives, allegedly.

00:36:40.420 Right.

00:36:40.860 So I've known Alan Jackson for years.

00:36:42.340 He was an LADA for a long time when I was working homicide in Orange County.

00:36:47.460 And he is an immensely talented lawyer.

00:36:50.040 And he's actually a good guy.

00:36:53.740 But you're absolutely right.

00:36:54.960 He's going to have a hard time with those videos.

00:36:57.760 California uses what's known as the McNaughton Rule.

00:37:00.540 I think New York is pretty similar, Arthur, if I'm not mistaken.

00:37:04.360 And essentially, it's a 150-year-old rule, Megan, that provides that if you understand the

00:37:09.240 nature and quality of your acts, you are responsible for them, even if you're suffering from mental

00:37:13.700 illness or if you're suffering from intoxication.

00:37:16.080 So what a jury essentially has to find, and the burden is on the defense to establish that

00:37:20.040 by preponderance of the evidence.

00:37:21.640 So what that means is if you've got somebody that's howling at the moon and they don't know

00:37:24.880 what they're doing, that's a case that you might have a shot at insanity.

00:37:29.520 Otherwise, even if they're drunk, even if they're high, even if they are suffering from

00:37:33.480 mental illness, if they understand the nature and quality of their actions, in other words,

00:37:38.400 they understand that they're killing human beings and not stabbing bananas or aliens or

00:37:43.060 whatever crazy delusion they're suffering from, they are legally responsible in the state of

00:37:47.420 California.

00:37:48.120 And as crazy as California is, and it feels like it gets a little crazier every day, sort

00:37:53.840 of pro-defendant, that is a law that they haven't touched yet.

00:37:57.580 And that is the current state of the law, and those videos are bad for them.

00:38:01.700 Matt, is sanity a jury question?

00:38:02.900 I'm sorry?

00:38:04.320 Yes.

00:38:04.840 Is sanity a jury question?

00:38:06.060 Yeah.

00:38:06.280 So California uses what's known as a bifurcated system, Megan, where first you have a guilt

00:38:11.860 phase, and then you have a sanity phase.

00:38:14.860 It's like a death penalty case where you have a guilt phase and then a penalty phase.

00:38:18.040 One of my last murders before I left the DA's office was a case that was freakishly close,

00:38:23.860 facts-wise.

00:38:24.760 It was my Nicholson case out of Newport Beach, where a young, very entitled, very wealthy

00:38:29.460 young man who was suffering from pretty well-documented organic mental illness, mixed with

00:38:35.640 addiction, got into it with his parents, and he stabbed his mother and father to death in

00:38:42.600 the house, and he also waited for the housekeeper.

00:38:45.180 That case just went to trial on October 31st of this year.

00:38:49.440 And a friend of mine, I handed the baton to you when I walked out of the office, my friend

00:38:55.120 Dave Porter, and that one, that guy had documented organic mental illness in addition to it, but

00:39:02.180 the bar is really high on insanity, and that jury found him legally sane, and his sentencing

00:39:07.720 is coming up actually at the end of this week.

00:39:10.040 So a jury, despite really well-documented actual mental illness, mixed with addiction, found

00:39:15.960 that under the McNaughton rule, that guy was responsible.

00:39:18.540 And I'll tell you another thing.

00:39:19.940 What that young woman, Rami, saw when she discovered her parents, you know, and Art has seen these

00:39:25.960 two, stabbing murders are the worst, because it's not like TV, Megan, where somebody gets

00:39:31.120 stabbed once with a knife and they fall down dead.

00:39:33.180 That's what you see in the movies.

00:39:34.900 In reality, they die from what's called exsanguination.

00:39:38.300 That means they bleed to death, and that takes minutes, which means they are fighting, they're

00:39:42.100 running around, and the rumor is, this is from multiple sources, I don't know if this

00:39:46.800 is true, and we don't know the evidence yet, and of course, he's presumed innocent, but

00:39:50.960 rumor is that he cut both of their throats, and when you present one of those as a prosecutor...

00:39:57.060 Well, they said while in bed, but there's a report today saying that they were found in

00:40:01.080 bed.

00:40:01.380 Right, but if you go back later and you cut their throats or you slash their wrists, and

00:40:05.480 I've prosecuted those two in stabbing cases, juries do not like that.

00:40:09.420 It shows a calculated, cold-blooded, premeditated nature.

00:40:14.560 Even if the initial contact or the initial fight is spontaneous and hot-blooded, when the

00:40:20.160 killer goes back and cuts throats, that is such a, just a decidedly vicious move that

00:40:27.440 that, look, and I heard you say it yesterday on one of the commentaries, Karen Reed was one

00:40:33.100 thing, but my friend Alan Jackson has his work cut out for this one, and another thing is

00:40:37.100 behind the scenes, I got a bunch of friends in the LADA's office, and they're all telling

00:40:40.780 me that the team that Nathan Hockman put together on this is top-notch.

00:40:46.240 So that's going to be interesting to watch.

00:40:48.000 It's going to go to trial.

00:40:48.980 There's no deal that they're going to be able to make.

00:40:50.760 I don't think Hockman's going to seek the death penalty on this, just because it's

00:40:54.440 inter-family, and in California, you seek the death penalty.

00:40:57.920 There's a moratorium on it, but you seek...

00:41:00.060 We sought it.

00:41:00.600 I was on our committee for 15 years.

00:41:02.360 We sought it in less than 4% of the cases that qualified.

00:41:05.460 So those are the special circumstance murders, which are a small fraction of all the murders.

00:41:10.560 And so I don't think...

00:41:11.420 Which they are saying this is, though.

00:41:12.980 They are calling this special circumstance now because...

00:41:17.000 It's definitely special circ.

00:41:18.380 It was...

00:41:19.700 Multiple murder.

00:41:20.360 They say it is, but I agree.

00:41:21.640 That doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to seek the death penalty.

00:41:26.500 They've charged him with...

00:41:29.100 Oh, hold on a second.

00:41:29.780 That's a different case.

00:41:31.400 But in any event, yes, they have alleged special circumstances against Nick Reiner.

00:41:36.580 Just...

00:41:36.840 I should have...

00:41:37.540 I always presume people know the cases that we've been covering nonstop, but I hate when

00:41:42.100 people do that.

00:41:42.940 We are discussing the murder of famed director Rob Reiner and his wife, Michelle Singer Reiner,

00:41:49.100 killed in their home, allegedly by their own 32-year-old son, Nick Reiner, who had a lifetime

00:41:53.780 of drug addiction problems and reportedly mental health problems as well.

00:41:59.220 Getting some more details on that.

00:42:02.160 Here's the charges.

00:42:02.880 Sorry.

00:42:03.100 Two counts of first-degree murder with a special circumstance of multiple murders.

00:42:06.740 Also faces a special allegation that he personally used a dangerous and deadly weapon, that being

00:42:11.800 a knife.

00:42:12.900 These charges carry a maximum sentence of life in prison and the possibility...

00:42:16.640 Or without the possibility of parole and also potentially the death penalty.

00:42:20.660 They'll make the decision on the death penalty later.

00:42:22.340 But now we're getting a few more details.

00:42:25.240 The Daily Mail, Arthur reporting, they were found in bed with their throats cut and may

00:42:30.900 have been asleep when they were murdered, a source close to the investigation tells the

00:42:35.560 Daily Mail.

00:42:36.400 I mean, that would only amplify Matt's point if he, in other words, left them no chance

00:42:41.020 whatsoever, just like sneaked up on them, took their lives while they were asleep.

00:42:45.260 I'm not sure a jury's going to feel too fondly about that either.

00:42:48.400 They died, we believe, sometime overnight, Saturday night.

00:42:53.160 Their bodies were found 3.30 p.m. on Sunday when their daughter Romy found them and called

00:42:57.660 911.

00:42:59.020 The report yesterday that we aired from Billy Bush has been contradicted that Romy did

00:43:03.940 not find her mother alive and that there was no last minute statement that it was the son.

00:43:09.580 That was his reporting.

00:43:11.160 Now several reports contradicting that, saying that there's no support for that whatsoever.

00:43:16.700 Nick, one of the Reiner's three children, had been living in the mansion's guest house.

00:43:21.320 He would, quote, according to a friend, do meth and not sleep for days and then have outbursts,

00:43:26.300 breaking things, punching walls.

00:43:27.680 He was, quote, a ticking time bomb.

00:43:30.540 His drug use was getting worse.

00:43:32.240 His parents wanted him out, claimed the friend.

00:43:34.800 According to TMZ, after leaving the Conan O'Brien Christmas party on Saturday night where Rob

00:43:39.520 and Michelle had been invited, and it looks like they graciously brought their kid along

00:43:43.240 who lived at their guest house, Nick.

00:43:45.340 By the way, we were told that it was some sort of formal dress.

00:43:47.900 I've even heard in one report that people were wearing formal wear, except Nick was not.

00:43:52.940 He showed up rude, behaving inappropriately.

00:43:56.260 A witness told TMZ he appeared, quote, tweaked out.

00:44:00.680 And they said that he stormed off, the New York Post reports, after getting into a tiff

00:44:06.580 with comedian Bill Hader, that H-A-D-E-R, that Nick interrupted Bill Hader at the bash,

00:44:12.780 an eyewitness told NBC.

00:44:14.380 When Hader told Nick that he was in the middle of a private conversation, the source said Nick

00:44:18.540 just stood there and stared before storming off.

00:44:22.020 And one final piece here that may be relevant.

00:44:24.700 Well, this is definitely relevant, but this isn't the piece I meant.

00:44:28.220 They said in the hotel room he rented after the murders.

00:44:31.340 His shower was later found full of blood with bloodstains on the bed and bedsheets covering

00:44:35.740 the windows.

00:44:36.560 That's incriminating.

00:44:38.020 And finally, this.

00:44:39.440 Daily Mail reports from someone who says he knows the family and Nick well that this person

00:44:44.940 had just spoken with the other brother, Jake, within the past 24 hours since the murders,

00:44:49.340 so does appear to be close to them, saying Nick was a deeply troubled child who needed

00:44:54.060 physical restraint for his rages from a very young age, that his issues began well before

00:45:00.060 his teenage years, and thus we presume well before his drug use, that Jake, the other

00:45:05.420 brother, is, quote, beyond himself with grief.

00:45:07.560 Nick's uncontrollable anger was not new, said the friend.

00:45:10.680 A lot of the, quoting here, a lot of their fights had to do with him just doing something

00:45:14.300 self-destructive and fighting back when they tried to help him.

00:45:17.240 It did get physical sometimes, not talking punches, but restraining him.

00:45:21.200 I was over there, must have been early 2000s, he was about 11.

00:45:24.000 He was throwing the biggest tantrum, and Rob Reiner just had him in a bear hug to restrain

00:45:29.700 him.

00:45:30.220 The tantrum was over nothing, but he had so much anger in his eyes.

00:45:34.180 It was terrifying, really, and this happened, happened, excuse me, a lot.

00:45:38.480 He never outgrew it.

00:45:39.920 He had tantrums well into his 20s.

00:45:42.060 This, I don't like the term bad seed, Arthur, but it does, it brings up the nature versus

00:45:50.440 nurture thing.

00:45:51.780 Like, in the single digits, you're behaving like this?

00:45:56.200 From all the reports, it seems like Rob and Michelle did everything humanly possible to

00:46:04.260 try to help their kid.

00:46:06.400 You know, our mutual friend, Geraldo, you know, he always says, you're only as happy as

00:46:10.520 your unhappiest child, and now being the father of three, you know, I get it.

00:46:15.660 Ariana woke me up two mornings ago at 5 a.m. telling me, Daddy, I love you, and now I have

00:46:19.760 to throw up.

00:46:20.920 And I'm, you know, like, that broke my heart.

00:46:23.020 It's a girl, she's like, Daddy, hold my hair.

00:46:24.940 So you got her a pony.

00:46:26.280 You got her another pony.

00:46:27.080 I'm going to the farm, man.

00:46:28.340 What's the matter with you?

00:46:29.520 But, I mean, it seems like they've done every, I mean, Rob Reiner made a film with his

00:46:34.740 son to try to pull him out of this.

00:46:38.420 And I know this sounds weird, but I didn't know the reporting you just said about the

00:46:43.040 beds and getting this cut, their throats cut in their bed.

00:46:46.800 Like, I hope they didn't know what happened.

00:46:49.640 I was imagining, like, some kind of real fight scene where Rob Reiner's trying to protect

00:46:53.580 his wife and something much more, you know, hand-to-hand combat.

00:46:58.220 That could still manifest.

00:46:59.540 You know, we don't know.

00:47:00.440 These early reports are often wrong, i.e.

00:47:02.060 the Billy Bush thing yesterday, with all due respect to my friend, Billy.

00:47:04.320 Yeah, I get it.

00:47:05.060 And that's why I always tell people, go slow on these.

00:47:08.120 Actually, the Megyn Kelly line that told me years ago on Kelly's Court, off-air, before

00:47:13.000 we went on, she goes, Arthur, this is initial reporting.

00:47:15.220 Don't get over your skis.

00:47:16.400 I'm like, I don't know what that means.

00:47:17.480 I don't ski, but okay, I think I figured it out.

00:47:21.260 Folks should know, just going back to the insanity of defense, how rarely it's used, how rarely

00:47:26.400 it's successful.

00:47:27.320 And I had a young woman who, her dad died in the course of a fight, and she dismembered

00:47:33.980 his private part because he had been raping her.

00:47:36.160 And I was going to use the insanity of defense until I found out, at least in New York, you

00:47:40.780 are incarcerated for a longer period of time if you are found not guilty by reason of insanity,

00:47:47.720 basically, than if you're found guilty of murder and you get 25 to life.

00:47:51.260 So it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

00:47:53.620 But, Megan, I had a case.

00:47:55.100 Now, thank God mom and dad didn't die, but it was a young man around the same age.

00:48:00.600 Maybe he was a little younger.

00:48:01.720 He was in his mid-20s.

00:48:02.960 And they prohibited him from seeing his girlfriend.

00:48:06.360 It was a, the family was Asian, and she was, I believe, Caucasian, and they were very strict.

00:48:11.960 And they said, no, you can't date her anymore.

00:48:14.320 The kid came home while the parents were in bed.

00:48:16.940 That's what's bugging me out a little bit here, hearing this.

00:48:19.440 And he took one of those, like, barbecue forks.

00:48:22.240 It's the two, it just has two prongs on it.

00:48:24.880 And he went to town on his parents.

00:48:26.500 Yeah, oh, God.

00:48:27.200 Now, thank God they lived.

00:48:28.680 But here's the, here's the punchline.

00:48:31.080 They didn't want him prosecuted.

00:48:32.960 Now, he was prosecuted.

00:48:35.580 I was able to get him a plea.

00:48:37.260 This was a while ago, but it was in the teens of years.

00:48:41.420 But they were very uncooperative.

00:48:43.560 And they, you know, there was a prosecutor who's got, he's sitting there with, with the

00:48:47.100 parents who were the victims begging not to prosecute him at all.

00:48:50.620 And he wants to give him 25 to life.

00:48:53.240 And so, you know, well, he couldn't give him 25 to life, but he could have given him 25

00:48:57.580 on the straight up assault one.

00:48:59.060 And so they kind of split the difference and gave the kid, like, I don't know if it was

00:49:03.540 12 or 14 years in prison.

00:49:05.660 So, you know, the question people ask is, like, what is, what does Nick, brother and

00:49:11.400 sister, you know, want to see happen here?

00:49:13.280 Who hired this fantastic, expensive, presumably lawyer?

00:49:18.040 Yeah.

00:49:18.360 Who's paying for him?

00:49:19.440 Yeah.

00:49:19.680 And if, but, you know, Meg, if you look at the online version this morning of the Wall

00:49:23.460 Street Journal, there is a family photo of Rob, Michelle and their children and everyone's

00:49:30.220 smiling except Nick.

00:49:31.540 Nick looks scary in this particular.

00:49:34.940 In all the pictures.

00:49:36.340 Yeah.

00:49:36.580 It's a little, it's a little, this, this case, Meg, I.

00:49:40.360 You can see it.

00:49:40.720 You can see the deep unhappiness, depression and possible mental defect in almost all the

00:49:46.500 family photos.

00:49:47.560 I love, there's so much more to discuss, including, I actually have a suspicion about where the defense

00:49:52.400 is going to go.

00:49:52.960 I, I don't think it's insanity either.

00:49:55.380 Can I throw in?

00:49:55.840 I'll tell you what I think it is and why I think.

00:49:56.840 Can I throw in one quick comment?

00:49:57.900 Wait, you can, but you have to.

00:49:59.160 Sorry.

00:49:59.460 No, stand by.

00:50:00.420 Okay.

00:50:00.860 Quick break.

00:50:01.660 Okay.

00:50:01.880 You get the first comment after break.

00:50:03.180 Okay.

00:50:03.380 We'll go right back with Arthur Idalla and Matt Murphy after this quick break.

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00:51:48.540 MK True Crime contributors Arthur Aydala and Matt Murphy are back with me now to actual

00:51:53.820 real live trial attorneys.

00:51:56.720 Arthur's been on both sides, prosecutor and defense.

00:51:58.840 Matt has spent his life putting bad people in jail, so he wins the morality game.

00:52:03.060 Just kidding.

00:52:03.700 Just kidding.

00:52:04.180 There's an important need for defense attorneys.

00:52:06.300 You bet your bottom dollar, young lady.

00:52:08.120 We're the ones who keep these processes in line.

00:52:11.400 And I'm doing some-

00:52:12.060 That's right.

00:52:12.380 I know.

00:52:12.820 And standing up for the Constitution, I know you're now doing some limited, some defense.

00:52:19.220 Okay, Matt, you were going to say before the break.

00:52:21.480 Yeah, look, there's a really interesting interview with Reiner about Charlie Kirk.

00:52:33.060 And it's, you know, he's asked about that.

00:52:38.680 And he's known for-

00:52:39.940 Rob.

00:52:40.140 With Rob Reiner, I'm sorry.

00:52:41.500 I keep thinking Carl.

00:52:42.900 That's okay.

00:52:43.040 It shows how old I am.

00:52:44.480 I know.

00:52:45.320 Well, I mean, there's a lineage.

00:52:47.020 Yeah.

00:52:47.340 So there's a really interesting interview with Rob Reiner where he's asked about Charlie Kirk.

00:52:51.740 And it's something I think everybody should Google and see because he makes a really good point of saying this is a human being.

00:53:00.700 Nobody should die like that.

00:53:02.000 Nobody should die for their political beliefs.

00:53:03.740 Like, it's kind of the thing that everybody should listen to.

00:53:07.500 And by the way, for whoever wrote that Washington Post article, I haven't seen anything where Rob Reiner, it's beloved Rob Reiner, you know, cultural icon Rob Reiner.

00:53:16.960 I haven't seen any, anywhere has he been described as left-wing activist, even though he, you know, he embraced-

00:53:24.080 That is so true.

00:53:24.100 Oh, my God.

00:53:24.360 Matt, can I tell you, this morning I listened to the New York Times, the Daily Podcast, which I have to say I enjoyed because they played a lot of clips from Rob's movies.

00:53:31.220 But they also then said, like, he was just a happy guy.

00:53:35.380 He was just so happy and joyful.

00:53:37.380 Okay, you've gone too far because the way the right-wing experienced Rob Reiner over the last 10 years was him being as nasty as humanly possible against MAGA and Donald Trump.

00:53:50.740 So it's fine.

00:53:51.420 We don't have to go into the politics of Rob Reiner.

00:53:53.900 We haven't since he's been murdered.

00:53:55.340 But the New York Times cannot get away with, he was just universally happy and sweet and joyful.

00:54:02.600 No, there was actually a very toxic core inside of him when it came to politics.

00:54:08.020 Go ahead.

00:54:08.440 Sorry for the introduction.

00:54:09.080 Yeah, no, no, you're absolutely right.

00:54:10.340 But at the end of the day, he's a human being, and he is motivated by what he believed to be right, just like we all have friends, or at least we used to all have friends on various sides of this debate, right?

00:54:20.120 And he's a human being, and he was doing what he thought was right, even if he disagreed with him, and so was Charlie Kirk, and he pointed that out.

00:54:28.460 So it's just, you know, when you look down and you go through one of these scenes and you look down and you see somebody who's dead, their politics don't matter, and they shouldn't matter.

00:54:38.880 And it's like, we can't, we can't go through this filter or this dehumanizing description like we saw in the Washington Post.

00:54:46.960 Man, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you know, Meg, I am like a little, I don't like the fact that people keep comparing these two murders.

00:54:54.720 They're so different.

00:54:56.060 I mean, they are so, so different.

00:54:58.980 Charlie Kirk got killed by a stranger who didn't like what he was saying, which is as anti-American as you can imagine.

00:55:06.380 And Rob Reiner agrees with that.

00:55:08.500 So that's one issue that needs to be addressed in the United States of America.

00:55:12.560 It's a form of terrorism.

00:55:14.320 Rob Reiner and his kid and his wife got killed by another issue, two issues, really, that we need to address, which is mental health and drug addiction.

00:55:23.680 And, you know, I mean, because obviously there was drugs involved, but it seems like talking what you just reported about when he was 11 years old, the kid was out of control.

00:55:32.220 I mean, those are issues that need to be addressed as well, but they're very, very different things.

00:55:37.500 And people keep comparing the two, and I'm like, it's apples and oranges.

00:55:41.440 It's just that then, yes, they're two homicides.

00:55:43.680 It's very true.

00:55:44.080 They're so different.

00:55:45.720 But at the same time, at the end of the day.

00:55:47.440 Let me tell you what I'm guessing.

00:55:48.940 Let me give you my guess on where they're going to take the defense.

00:55:52.620 Yeah, no.

00:55:53.120 I was just going to say, because we looked at some of these cases in which they raised self-defense or criminal insanity.

00:56:00.540 The one that jumped out at me was Richard Chase, who they called the Vampire Sacramento in 1979.

00:56:06.120 He killed six people between 77 and 78 in Sacramento.

00:56:10.720 They were all chosen at random.

00:56:12.120 One was a pregnant woman.

00:56:13.320 He drank her blood after he mixed it with yogurt.

00:56:16.540 He had a delusional belief he needed to consume the blood of other beings to replenish his own supply.

00:56:21.500 He'd been treated at psychiatric hospitals before the murders many times.

00:56:25.180 He was at one hospital after having injected rabbit's blood into his veins.

00:56:28.480 He'd been diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic.

00:56:31.140 He was on psychotropic drugs.

00:56:33.040 They tried to use the insanity defense.

00:56:35.320 It failed.

00:56:36.800 It failed in that case.

00:56:38.440 So it's not going to work for Nick Reiner.

00:56:41.420 It's just not.

00:56:42.220 But here's what I think.

00:56:43.740 And this is like out of left field prediction.

00:56:46.780 And it's just because the Menendez case is on my mind, because that's also California.

00:56:51.040 And this is what triggered it.

00:56:52.420 In no way am I impugning Rob Reiner, no doubt I believe there's anything untoward.

00:56:55.760 I think he seems by all accounts a loving father and an appropriate father.

00:57:00.160 But on this same Daily Mail report we were quoting from, one actor who was on the set of Being Charlie, he's a cast member, Eric Oud, 45, told the Daily Mail, he found the dynamic between Rob and his son Nick troubling.

00:57:12.520 They were fighting.

00:57:13.280 They were arguing with each other while they were on the set.

00:57:15.960 They did point out that this guy's scenes were ultimately cut from the film.

00:57:19.120 Okay.

00:57:19.460 Maybe he's got an axe to grind.

00:57:21.720 Quote, they were kissing each other on the lips, which was weird.

00:57:24.960 They bickered, or they were bickering.

00:57:27.360 They were going off on each other on set.

00:57:29.580 It wasn't comfortable.

00:57:30.580 There was definitely hostility there.

00:57:32.360 So my question is, is there a likelihood Nick Reiner pulls a card from the Menendez defense?

00:57:40.540 We're in California.

00:57:42.220 It's going to be a California jury and says he was molesting me my whole life.

00:57:48.580 That's why I was so messed up from the time I was 10.

00:57:52.640 That's why I got hooked on drugs.

00:57:54.100 There's no way of disproving that and plays the sympathy card with a California jury about why, from a very young age, he was all messed up, Matt.

00:58:04.900 Well, he might.

00:58:07.020 But remember, until recently, until, again, George Gascon became the DA and our friend Mark Ergoes got a hold of that case, they were convicted.

00:58:15.080 And a California jury rejected all that.

00:58:18.800 And it was – there's a –

00:58:20.600 But the California juries are not what they used to be.

00:58:22.940 No, that's true.

00:58:23.560 But there's a blistering opinion affirming the conviction of both those guys authored of all places by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals that anybody who's interested in this, you can find it online.

00:58:34.300 And it just destroys the defense.

00:58:37.960 And every word of it is, I think, correct.

00:58:41.280 So Alan can run with that.

00:58:43.480 I think that you're going to hit headwinds because, remember, we have all these other kids in the family.

00:58:49.860 And, look, addiction is one of those things.

00:58:52.480 It touches almost every American family.

00:58:55.140 But there is a huge difference, I think, in the minds of certainly prosecutors and judges and appellate courts but also jurors between somebody who's suffering from organic mental illness where, for lack of a better term, it's not really their fault, even if they're self-medicating with drugs, and the spoiled kind of entitled young rich guy who has a problem with daddy.

00:59:17.900 And I think everything that I'm reading on this, it seems like the evidence is stacking up more and more in that direction.

00:59:25.660 There was an interview I saw yesterday with Nick Reiner where he describes himself as an entitled rich white kid.

00:59:34.260 And I think it was during the promotion of that movie.

00:59:36.640 And there's an interview that they did promoting that where you can kind of see some of that dynamic between Nick and Rob Reiner.

00:59:44.240 And it's almost hard to watch, especially in retrospect.

00:59:46.780 So this is a horrible case.

00:59:50.320 But thankfully, Gascon is out.

00:59:52.380 We've got Nathan Hockman in.

00:59:53.740 And this case is going to be handled the right way wherever it goes, whatever happens.

00:59:58.800 Go ahead, Arthur.

01:00:00.100 Well, the only thing, Matt, is, you know, Megan was just talking about this witness is saying when he was 11 years old, he was out of control.

01:00:07.340 And that, you know, I don't think at 11 you know you're an entitled rich kid living in the most exclusive neighborhood on the planet.

01:00:14.140 So, you know, and then I just think there were some indications before his drug use that he had, you know.

01:00:23.440 Definitely.

01:00:23.960 They brought the yoga instructor in for him when he was 10 to try to bring calm into his life because they were already seeing the problems.

01:00:31.400 And that goes back to what you're saying, Meg, about nature or nurture.

01:00:34.940 And, you know, there are some, I mean, look, I do believe people are born with a certain disposition.

01:00:41.020 And then it can be pointed in one direction or another.

01:00:45.400 Or another, I mean, I will tell you this, your friend, Alan, if he stands at a podium and says, you know, our defense is going to be that Rob Reiner was sexually assaulting his son.

01:00:56.620 You know, that's not going to fly.

01:00:58.040 Yeah, I mean, I agree.

01:00:59.280 Wait, it did fly.

01:01:00.920 It flew.

01:01:01.700 It flew like a bird in the Casey Anthony case.

01:01:04.940 Where Jose Baez got up there in opening statements and blamed George, the dad, for allegedly molesting Casey, the 20th.

01:01:16.020 Wait, let me finish.

01:01:17.040 The mother of little Kaylee.

01:01:18.920 He said he molested her.

01:01:20.980 And then he said, oh, also, he helped cover up the baby's drowning.

01:01:25.880 He never came back to it.

01:01:27.740 He never proved it.

01:01:28.780 It was barred from being used in closing argument because he didn't introduce any proof in it on it.

01:01:33.680 And she was acquitted.

01:01:35.260 But my point, he wasn't Rob Reiner.

01:01:38.880 I mean, Rob Reiner, for those of us old enough, I mean, he's still meathead.

01:01:42.820 Rob Reiner is quoted as saying, if despite all my movies and all the success in life, even if I won the Nobel Peace Prize, the headline would be meathead won the Nobel Peace Prize.

01:01:51.960 So, I mean, he's a household fixture to many of us.

01:01:55.380 What do you mean?

01:01:56.180 The defense lawyer is going to be like, that doesn't prove anything about what happened behind closed doors.

01:01:59.840 The defense lawyers constantly, they throw anything but the kitchen sink to try to make it stick because it's a potential death penalty case.

01:02:07.600 There's two other children and three, actually, other children involved here who seem to have very normal upbringing.

01:02:15.820 You know, the young woman who I was talking about earlier who killed her father, she had a sister who testified and said, yeah, he was molesting my sister and he was molesting me, too.

01:02:24.020 Here, I don't think Casey Anthony did not have any other witness come and say like he threw it out in opening the horse left the barn and the jury was tainted on it.

01:02:37.040 I'm just saying like this is going to be a desperation defense because they if that stuff about the hotel room is true, this guy's up the creek without a paddle mat and defense lawyers like Alan Jackson.

01:02:49.800 Right. They don't go down with not swinging.

01:02:53.260 They swing for the fences.

01:02:54.860 That's why they get hired.

01:02:56.140 Well, I'll throw another one out there for you.

01:02:57.800 That video that we saw of him walking outside the gas station.

01:03:00.480 That's an area of Brentwood that is very close to a restaurant that we've all heard of called Mezzaluna.

01:03:05.600 Remember that?

01:03:07.020 You talk about crazy, crazy L.A. juries.

01:03:09.680 Had dined.

01:03:10.300 Right.

01:03:10.920 It's about a couple hundred yards down the road and there's some great restaurants in there now.

01:03:14.580 That's I mean, I've that's basically just a little north of my part of town.

01:03:19.280 I know that I know that I know that means that one half of Megyn Kelly, even though she was introduced the other day as a great Irish American.

01:03:30.400 I'm like, do you not know who Nona is?

01:03:32.400 But anyway, I actually corrupted somebody just the other day.

01:03:36.460 Say I am part Italian.

01:03:38.080 Just slow your word because they are ripping on Italians, too.

01:03:40.760 I can be insulted on many fronts.

01:03:42.420 Go ahead.

01:03:42.840 Yeah, no.

01:03:43.700 Kate, look, and Arthur knows this as well as I do.

01:03:47.120 Trial work is an art form, Megan, and you've seen that a million times, too.

01:03:51.480 And the Casey Anthony case is a different part of the country, but they were, in my view, the prosecution was outclassed, kind of like the prosecution in the Karen Reed case.

01:04:01.020 They were just outclassed.

01:04:02.080 They had good evidence, but they were outclassed by the by the talent of the defense lawyer.

01:04:06.740 And, you know, this is one where, again, this comes back to the district attorney of L.A.

01:04:13.440 He's and I don't know who it is yet.

01:04:15.180 I'm sure I'll know who they are.

01:04:16.760 But they from a buddy of mine I talked to yesterday who's been a career prosecutor in that office.

01:04:21.060 He said he didn't want to say who it was, but they're very, very good.

01:04:25.280 And look, I've got confidence.

01:04:28.140 Marsha Clark was good.

01:04:29.300 She was really good.

01:04:30.680 You know, Megan, I agree with almost everything you say most of the time.

01:04:33.720 I'm going to go out on here and disagree with you that I met her recently.

01:04:37.080 She's a lovely woman.

01:04:38.600 I tried a case against Christopher Darden.

01:04:40.740 I did a murder case against him when he was a defense lawyer.

01:04:43.560 Nice man.

01:04:44.780 O.J. was no fluke.

01:04:46.020 That case was the only book worth reading on O.J., guys, is a book written by Vincent Bugliosi called Outrage, where he takes the prosecution to task.

01:04:54.980 That was prosecutorial incompetence from the first minute.

01:04:59.740 And I don't see I don't think that's going to happen here.

01:05:02.380 OK.

01:05:02.640 OK, mistakes were made.

01:05:04.180 Can I ask Matt a question about that?

01:05:07.060 Your system.

01:05:07.660 Is it in the realm of possibilities that they indict him on a death penalty charge and then they say, look, if you want, we'll give you the plea to life without parole, like we just saw in Kurt Berger, however you say his name.

01:05:24.260 I mean, is that something that happens in that jurisdiction?

01:05:27.380 That's a great that's a that's a great question, Arthur.

01:05:29.840 And a lot of people wonder about that, that don't that don't do cases in either even professionals don't do cases in capital case jurisdictions that have a death penalty.

01:05:37.980 The answer is no.

01:05:38.840 It's that's it's unethical to do that because it's it's known as extracting a plea.

01:05:44.460 You you you plead what you prove and you go in and you prove what you pled.

01:05:48.340 That's the philosophy.

01:05:49.360 And you don't you don't file a death penalty case in the hope you're going to get a plea.

01:05:53.880 That was my problem with what they did in the Brian Koberger case, because that's really what it looked like.

01:05:59.420 There was no change in the evidence.

01:06:00.700 And then he comes in for a plea after the they've done everything right.

01:06:05.440 So so a lot of people think that correctly.

01:06:09.460 You see that on TV.

01:06:10.720 That happens all the time.

01:06:12.340 I mean, I was in court yesterday.

01:06:13.700 Right.

01:06:14.180 It's a murder to case.

01:06:15.340 He's facing twenty five to life.

01:06:17.020 And what people understand is the life part is the problem.

01:06:20.020 So you get at twenty two years, you go in front of the parole board.

01:06:23.840 If you don't get parole, you got to wait two years to twenty four.

01:06:27.060 You don't twenty six, twenty eight.

01:06:29.040 And you can be for the rest of your life.

01:06:30.340 We got it.

01:06:30.720 But this is only mildly interesting.

01:06:32.600 So I want to get to the next point.

01:06:33.620 All right.

01:06:35.060 Let's keep going.

01:06:35.880 Let's keep going.

01:06:36.580 OK, I have a question I need to ask, which is we mentioned earlier.

01:06:39.900 What about the money situation?

01:06:41.480 Because Nick doesn't have any by all reports.

01:06:43.840 But Rob and Michelle had a lot.

01:06:45.300 I didn't realize until listening to the Daily this morning that did you know that Castle Rock was Rob Reiner's to he he created that movie company that backed Seinfeld, among other that produced Seinfeld, among others.

01:06:57.500 I mean, so there's a lot of money in the Reiner estate.

01:07:02.380 He's got three other children.

01:07:03.740 But the question is whether any dispensation disbursement would ever be made to Nick so he could pay for a lawyer by the estate.

01:07:13.320 But I mean, we don't know how the will was written, but Matt, how would it normally work in California where one of the people who would potentially potentially be inheriting is the one who caused the murders, allegedly the death?

01:07:26.080 The only thing I can think of, Megan, is that he had some sort of a trust, that he had access to a trust.

01:07:30.960 I mean, the guy was essentially I mean, he wasn't working.

01:07:34.280 He wasn't a functional human being because of all of his addiction.

01:07:37.460 So I don't know.

01:07:39.340 But I think we all have that that question.

01:07:41.100 Alan Jackson is, as Arthur correctly pointed out, he is top drawers, a massive talent, but he is also very expensive, as the best defense lawyers are.

01:07:51.300 So that's they got money from somewhere.

01:07:54.000 I can't imagine it's coming from his siblings.

01:07:55.960 So the only thing I can think of in California, you can set up a trust that he might have access to.

01:08:01.580 Is there any way Alan Jackson would do it for free for the notoriety?

01:08:06.380 No, no, he's already got all the notoriety in the world and he's well known in L.A.

01:08:12.820 and he's got a thriving practice.

01:08:14.920 And yeah, the answer there's no.

01:08:16.600 He's he's being paid.

01:08:18.220 And he didn't tell me this, but I guarantee he's being paid a lot.

01:08:22.300 And, you know, and Megan, this is not a case as the Fedster and you're going to come out, you know, kind of looking at good really under any scenario because of who the.

01:08:31.580 What the crime is, how it was committed, who was committed against, you know, this is really you're going to be wearing the black cowboy hat, not the white cowboy hat, not the man.

01:08:40.260 And he may lose.

01:08:41.780 Yeah, yeah, probably will lose likely to lose.

01:08:44.920 But I just feel like there is not going to be I have my doubts about a trust, because even though he's 32 and I think most like trusts from rich people to their children kick in before age 32, not when they're a drug addict that they were too aware of.

01:09:00.900 And like worried about his drug addiction, I think, to have given him some lucrative trust.

01:09:06.580 I feel like they probably would control those purse strings.

01:09:09.200 They had him living on their compound in a guest house.

01:09:12.660 So I think that's another way of trying to control this, you know, very problematic child.

01:09:17.580 So I really wonder where like I don't.

01:09:21.200 I don't I I'd actually I guess it's a question for a trust and estates lawyer, but also the estate was to be divided because most people say it should all go to my spouse.

01:09:29.860 But if my spouse is also dead, it should be dispersed equally amongst my children.

01:09:35.560 He's one of the four children, unless you've made a special provision that not this one.

01:09:41.460 But it would take years.

01:09:42.480 And like whether he gets something is up to somebody else, like a trustee or the other kids.

01:09:46.360 Meg, as you know, my bride is also my law partner.

01:09:50.020 This is her area of expertise, surrogates law.

01:09:53.880 These things don't happen quickly.

01:09:55.280 Like, you know, even if everything is in order, it's not like it's triggered.

01:10:00.240 You've got to get death certificates.

01:10:01.400 They have to be filed with the court.

01:10:03.600 They have to be certified.

01:10:05.040 Now, unless Alan is going to say, look, I'll I'll roll the dice here that I am going to get paid a seven figure number down the road when this kid gets his inheritance.

01:10:15.040 You know, I think probably someone stepped up and said Rob would want and Michelle would want their son at least protected constitutionally.

01:10:26.520 And let me see if I can if I can help out.

01:10:28.960 And you never know.

01:10:30.360 It could be one of the siblings like you don't know, Megan.

01:10:33.080 These are so I'd be worried I'd be next.

01:10:37.900 I mean, like the ire is clearly against the family.

01:10:41.540 I'm not saying he's coming out of prison anytime soon, Megan.

01:10:43.880 Don't get me wrong.

01:10:45.040 But someone may say, look, let's get a lawyer and protect his constitutional rights and get it.

01:10:51.400 Get him like a one nine hundred one eight hundred lawyer.

01:10:54.980 One nine hundred is a different thing.

01:10:56.340 That's I was thinking about with my voice permanently like this, apparently starting a new business with a one nine hundred line.

01:11:02.100 I think I could actually make real money.

01:11:04.060 OK, let's keep going because there's there's other cases like we've teased in the beginning.

01:11:08.520 Can 24 year old Benjamin Erickson sue anybody after being publicly identified as the Brown University shooter?

01:11:17.340 A thing which is not true, according to the attorney general.

01:11:21.080 So we did not say his name.

01:11:23.140 We did not report.

01:11:24.580 By the time we got to the story, they'd already released him saying, whoops, he's actually not the person of interest.

01:11:30.040 It wasn't him. And the mayor, the moronic mayor of Providence is still saying, well, we don't know that, that he's been cleared.

01:11:38.320 And then the AG is out there saying, oh, no, he's he's cleared.

01:11:41.100 He's cleared. So they don't even have their message straight on this guy.

01:11:44.480 But this guy was named by many media outlets, CNN and many others went down the list, but it's a very long list.

01:11:52.240 And they all cited law enforcement sources.

01:11:55.820 The media did not make up that. They didn't pull it out of a hat.

01:11:58.780 They got it from cops who were leaking it to them.

01:12:02.120 So the media, in my view, you guys, but you tell me they have a defense that this was not published.

01:12:07.840 And maybe the guy will be a limited public figure like he wasn't a public figure before this, but he could be considered, quote, a limited public figure.

01:12:14.840 You'll tell me what you think. But if you get that designation is like you're a limited public figure for like just this one story,

01:12:19.740 then the burden to prove that someone has defamed you is much higher.

01:12:25.120 And you'd have to be you'd have to prove the actual malice standard, that these outlets were that they knew it was false or were reckless about the probability of falsity in in reporting it,

01:12:37.840 that they had actual malice in their hearts when reporting it, which was done reporting it by NBC News, CNN, New York Post, Washington Post, so many others.

01:12:46.500 So you tell me, does this guy have a defamation lawsuit against anybody?

01:12:50.680 Arthur, you want to go first?

01:12:51.540 Yeah, I don't I don't think so. I've handled a lot of these now.

01:12:54.580 And Megan, you you're very well versed on the law because you just laid it all out there.

01:12:59.200 I don't think they're going to be able to prove this the way a wrestler got Gawker knocked off the planet Earth by saying, you know, you you knew you were making things up.

01:13:12.160 You were only doing it to sell newspapers.

01:13:14.680 Yet only the only purpose was to hurt me.

01:13:17.240 And and you knew you knew that it was false.

01:13:20.300 So I don't think it rises to that level that he that he would be successful in front of a jury as long as they they could show the steps of what led to him,

01:13:32.400 why they had a reasonable cause to believe it may have been him.

01:13:35.180 I think ultimately some of the ballistics didn't match.

01:13:38.400 And that's what was one of the real straw that broke the camel's back that said, no, no, we got the wrong guy.

01:13:45.820 Well, reportedly, he also said he had been in the hotel room the entire time.

01:13:50.100 And now, again, that is what was reported.

01:13:52.800 Don't know for sure that that's what he said.

01:13:54.520 But if if so, that would be verifiable with hotel videotape with possibly key card records.

01:14:01.020 It takes a little while.

01:14:02.380 Some hotels would know.

01:14:02.960 But it takes a little while to get that stuff.

01:14:05.840 I don't know if you're the FBI.

01:14:07.100 Does it take that?

01:14:07.680 Why the hell do you have the tapes on the front door of your hotel if not to show the FBI when some there's been a mass shooting down the road?

01:14:13.700 Right.

01:14:13.860 But when I say a little while, I don't mean weeks.

01:14:16.060 But, you know, you've got to figure out, OK, when when did he check in?

01:14:19.040 When did he check out?

01:14:20.160 How many cameras are there?

01:14:21.340 Which cameras are we to look through?

01:14:22.640 You know, it takes hours.

01:14:23.760 I'm not saying it takes days, but it takes it probably takes eight, 12 hours.

01:14:27.740 Well, and he was in custody, I think, for 18 hours custody.

01:14:30.140 I said like he was a person of interest for 18 hours as they questioned him.

01:14:33.980 I don't know, Matt.

01:14:36.480 You know, I made the case that the media has a defense, right?

01:14:42.100 Like it was told to them by law enforcement.

01:14:44.320 But that was also the case in Atlanta with the Olympics in the 1990s.

01:14:50.000 And Richard Jewell, who many people still think was the Olympic bomber.

01:14:57.820 And he wasn't.

01:14:59.980 Hold on a second.

01:15:00.880 We had we pulled a couple of headlines.

01:15:02.420 OK, from the time Atlantic Journal Constitution.

01:15:05.660 They're the ones who like blew the lid off of him allegedly being the suspect.

01:15:09.860 This woman, Kathy Scruggs, said he was the guy.

01:15:12.980 Remember, because Richard Jewell was the one, if memory serves, who found the bomb and was a hero.

01:15:18.540 And then a few days later, she dropped a story in the Atlantic Journal, Atlanta Journal Constitution saying, oh, no, he was the bomber and completely the world in this guy's life.

01:15:26.600 The title of the initial story, FBI suspects hero guard may have planted bomb body of the story that followed the security guard who first alerted police to the pipe bomb that exploded in Centennial Olympic Park.

01:15:36.840 This is the focus of the federal investigation into the incident that resulted in two deaths and injured more than 100.

01:15:42.960 Richard Jewell, 33, a former law enforcement officer, fits the profile of the lone bomber.

01:15:48.280 This profile generally includes a frustrated white man who is a former police officer, member of the military or police wannabe who seeks to become a hero.

01:15:55.060 There was a column by Dave Kindred implying a comparison between Jewell and a convicted murderer.

01:16:01.760 The New York Post had in its front cover Saint or Savage with a photo of him.

01:16:06.640 Separate article titled Who Checked Rambo Crossing Guard's Record?

01:16:10.800 He was a fat, failed former sheriff's deputy who spent most of his working days as a school crossing guard.

01:16:15.880 NBC News, same.

01:16:18.220 Brokaw said in a news broadcast, the speculation is that the FBI is close to making the case in their language.

01:16:24.560 They probably have enough to arrest him, Jewell, right now, probably enough to prosecute him, but you always want to have enough to convict him as well.

01:16:31.420 There are still some holes in the case.

01:16:32.980 And guess what happened?

01:16:36.320 Lots of settlements.

01:16:37.480 That's what happened.

01:16:38.700 Let's see.

01:16:40.160 Did they actually call him fat?

01:16:42.540 They called him a fat?

01:16:43.360 They called him fat.

01:16:44.000 Yeah, that was 96, right?

01:16:46.300 Fat, failed former sheriff's deputy.

01:16:48.240 Well, that's a New York Post.

01:16:49.060 Would they do that today?

01:16:49.980 I don't think so.

01:16:50.180 Richard Jewell.

01:16:52.000 Yes, they would.

01:16:52.760 The Post, God love them.

01:16:54.080 They haven't gone PC.

01:16:56.360 Richard Jewell versus NBC.

01:16:58.240 The lawsuit arose from the comments made by Tom Brokaw that I just read.

01:17:02.340 NBC stood by its story, but later agreed to a reported settlement of $500,000.

01:17:07.140 Richard Jewell versus CNN.

01:17:09.320 Terms of the settlement, confidential.

01:17:11.600 CNN maintained that it acted properly, but it did pay out.

01:17:16.340 And then, let's see.

01:17:20.680 I don't know if he must have sued the Atlantic Journal Constitution, but it is.

01:17:25.680 It's right there.

01:17:26.200 Where is it?

01:17:26.600 Isn't there a movie about this?

01:17:28.860 There is?

01:17:29.560 No.

01:17:30.160 There is.

01:17:30.660 There was a movie about him being falsely accused.

01:17:33.400 Oh, it was the only major news organization that refused to settle.

01:17:38.880 The newspaper fought the lawsuit for years, arguing its reporting that Jewell was a suspect

01:17:42.620 was substantially true at the time of publication.

01:17:46.260 The case went all the way to the Georgia Court of Appeals, which eventually ruled in the paper's

01:17:49.560 favor in 2001, concluding the articles were accurate at the time they were published.

01:17:55.200 And they did indeed find that Jewell was a limited-purpose public figure, Matt.

01:17:58.680 So where do you come down on it?

01:18:00.820 There's a really interesting case in California, Megan, called Rothman v. Jackson, which is the

01:18:05.740 Michael Jackson case, where essentially, when you are a government entity, you have really

01:18:11.820 good immunity protections and litigant privilege until you step outside that role.

01:18:16.120 I don't think – this case is – every case is unique and different.

01:18:20.200 I think it's going to be tough against these newspapers because they're just covering – they're

01:18:26.120 covering information that they got from a source.

01:18:28.400 The problem is the county and the state of Rhode Island because that shouldn't be happening.

01:18:33.160 And shame on whoever it is that's leaking that.

01:18:35.900 That should never happen.

01:18:37.340 And that is one small piece of what has very much appeared to be a hugely incompetent investigation

01:18:46.360 so far on this.

01:18:47.460 And I always want to give the benefit of the doubt.

01:18:49.220 Murder cases sometimes take a long time to come around.

01:18:51.880 But these press conferences, I've never seen anything quite like this.

01:18:56.060 They're demonstrating such a lack of command of the facts.

01:18:58.920 And I've stood on that stage more times than I can count with an elected official, as we've

01:19:03.740 described a case.

01:19:04.440 I've never seen a lack of preparation this bad.

01:19:07.520 And that goes from the professor – or the president of Brown University to the questions

01:19:12.340 that they know basic facts.

01:19:15.180 So the idea that somebody in that shop is incorrectly jumping the gun and leaking information

01:19:19.800 about somebody who may be innocent is awful.

01:19:22.780 And I think that there's a better lawsuit against the government on this than the news

01:19:27.860 outlets that have been reporting on it.

01:19:29.260 That's my thought.

01:19:30.340 In the Jewell case, they tried that, but they could not figure out – I guess there were

01:19:37.500 many, many FBI agents who had been privy to the information, and they could never figure

01:19:41.500 out who among them leaked Richard Jewell's name.

01:19:46.120 And the reporter, Scruggs, for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution would not divulge it.

01:19:51.040 Sadly, she died, I think, at 42 years old.

01:19:53.120 She died shortly into her life.

01:19:55.080 But in any event –

01:19:55.860 I don't think this is the FBI.

01:19:57.200 Finding who the law enforcement guy is is a much bigger challenge.

01:20:01.420 You know, Megan, from a very practical point of view, if you're the CEO of NBC News and

01:20:06.860 CNN, and then what was the outlet that fought it all the way to the Georgia –

01:20:11.240 AJC.

01:20:11.800 Okay, so from a financial point of view, I am sure the $500,000 that NBC paid was a

01:20:18.400 heck of a lot less than the legal bills were for the other entity.

01:20:22.680 I know it's a precedent-setting thing, but you fight a case all the way up to that court

01:20:27.600 over – it started in 96, it ended in 2001.

01:20:31.900 That is very, very, very expensive.

01:20:34.720 And that's what's called nuisance value.

01:20:36.020 And they didn't want Tom Brokaw to sit for a depo either, right?

01:20:39.900 So that would be another piece for the television stations that got sued, like NBC, that he

01:20:45.600 was their main anchor, and I'm sure the CNN anchor didn't want to sit for a depo in this

01:20:49.640 case either.

01:20:50.420 Here's – before we go, Matt, to your point, here's Peter Narona.

01:20:54.120 He is the AG, and he was getting asked questions about – there was reporting yesterday and

01:21:06.560 today all over the internet about whether this one person who's at Brown was potentially a

01:21:13.160 person of interest.

01:21:14.420 Internet sleuths are trying to come up with names right now, and they've been asking at

01:21:20.200 these pressers, is this person on your list?

01:21:22.680 Have you looked into this?

01:21:24.120 And watch this exchange here in SOT 6.

01:21:26.780 I think this is an area where caution is really necessary.

01:21:30.480 There are lots of reasons why a page might be taken down, particularly if there's chatter

01:21:35.920 out there about words that were spoken.

01:21:38.680 It's easy to jump from someone saying words that were spoken to what those words are to

01:21:44.120 a particular name that reflects a motive targeting a particular person.

01:21:48.580 That's a really dangerous road to go down.

01:21:52.100 Really dangerous.

01:21:52.980 If that name meant anything to this investigation, we would be out looking for that person.

01:21:58.700 We would let you know we were looking for that person.

01:22:01.480 You know, again, I think it's just a really dangerous road to go down.

01:22:05.160 He loves the dangerous road.

01:22:08.240 I'm going to give you one more soundbite from this guy in SOT 7, because again, there are

01:22:13.380 two other pieces in the news that they haven't confirmed.

01:22:16.160 One is that the vice president of the College Republicans who was shot, Ella Cole, that she

01:22:24.020 was targeted, Ella Cook, that she was targeted, which would be obviously people are asking

01:22:30.040 in the wake of Charlie whether that she was the main target there.

01:22:33.380 Many other people were shot.

01:22:35.100 But that's a question.

01:22:36.760 And secondly, there's a question about what the shooter yelled, because everyone in that

01:22:42.780 classroom says he yelled something.

01:22:44.140 But no one is telling us what he yelled.

01:22:47.640 All these law enforcement types are saying is, we don't know.

01:22:51.640 Like, people are unclear.

01:22:52.960 And we heard from the TA who was there conducting the review class in advance of the exam with

01:22:57.560 the students.

01:22:58.300 He didn't understand what the guy had yelled and that none of the students he spoke to

01:23:02.380 understood what the guy had yelled.

01:23:03.520 But there are some claiming it was Allahu Akbar, totally unconfirmed at this point.

01:23:09.300 That, too, would be relevant because it would imply a motive, quite obviously.

01:23:13.860 And here was his, I think, reference to those issues in SOT 7.

01:23:18.300 There is no information that the investigative team has about motive.

01:23:22.100 Zero.

01:23:23.100 Zero.

01:23:23.760 There's nothing about, even if taking at face value what one or two witnesses may have

01:23:29.940 said about what something was said.

01:23:31.720 Okay, and there are many witnesses that say nothing was said.

01:23:35.420 There's nothing about what we know was perhaps said that indicates any kind of motive that

01:23:43.220 is related at all to ethnicity or political outlook or culture.

01:23:50.680 There's nothing at all that we know right now about that.

01:23:54.600 And I think that that is a dangerous road to go down.

01:23:58.840 Okay, here's the problem, Matt Murphy.

01:24:00.360 We don't believe him and we don't trust him.

01:24:02.800 And these are all far left libs who have an agenda of their own.

01:24:06.540 And I honestly, I don't believe this guy.

01:24:08.720 If some of those witnesses said that the guy yelled Allahu Akbar, I don't think he'd tell us.

01:24:13.360 I don't trust him.

01:24:14.140 He doesn't understand what he's doing.

01:24:16.260 That seems clear to me.

01:24:17.100 He doesn't.

01:24:17.400 He's not on the same page as his mayor.

01:24:19.020 The police chief, too, inspires no confidence.

01:24:21.460 And can we just spend two seconds on the weird sign language lady?

01:24:24.400 She's over the top and she's like too needy of attention.

01:24:28.960 Bring it in.

01:24:30.040 Keep it small.

01:24:30.940 It doesn't have to be so huge.

01:24:32.340 You're not the star of the show.

01:24:33.780 They constantly do this.

01:24:35.120 Don't the hearing impaired have closed captions like everybody else?

01:24:38.540 Why do you need this?

01:24:39.400 Like, it's to me, it's a virtue signal.

01:24:41.720 I'm telling you, it's like yet another reason people are watching this.

01:24:45.320 Like, okay, I know who these people are.

01:24:47.420 Go ahead, Matt.

01:24:47.960 No, you're exactly right.

01:24:48.820 They're undermining the public's confidence in the integrity of this investigation.

01:24:52.420 By the way, this reminds me of Fast Times at Ridgemont High with Mr. Hand and Jeff Spicoli.

01:24:56.620 If I'm here and you're here, doesn't that mean this is our time?

01:24:59.940 If witnesses heard him yell something, you don't get to get up and say there's zero evidence of motive.

01:25:06.140 Like, there is evidence.

01:25:07.580 That's evidence that they heard something.

01:25:09.520 Now, I'm a firm believer in the integrity of the investigation moving forward, not releasing information.

01:25:15.500 I have no problem with any of that.

01:25:16.960 But if they took all this stuff down to protect one guy and then they're leaking information about another guy that may be innocent, that's not fair.

01:25:25.980 But then don't have a frigging press conference, guys.

01:25:28.540 If you can't release the information or address that in a competent way where you're going to undermine the integrity and the public's confidence in what you're doing, don't have the frigging press conference or do a professional one like we saw with Nathan Hockman where he came in.

01:25:41.000 He announced the charges.

01:25:42.220 They took like three questions.

01:25:43.620 They didn't really answer anything.

01:25:44.640 They stayed well within the lines, the ethical rules, and then it was done.

01:25:48.660 You watch that and it's like, OK, that's a bunch of pros that know what they're doing, that are in charge.

01:25:53.140 And I have confidence in where that investigation is going.

01:25:55.760 This is Keystone Cops.

01:25:57.640 And again, I want to give the benefit of the doubt to them.

01:25:59.900 But I watch these things and I can't.

01:26:02.000 And you're right.

01:26:02.620 In the land of COVID and iPhones, isn't there some way?

01:26:06.440 And not a hack on anybody who's hearing impaired at all.

01:26:09.700 But if they don't have – if there's a reporter in there that is hearing impaired, it makes perfect sense.

01:26:14.500 But it is disturbing.

01:26:16.500 It is distracting.

01:26:17.280 You're trying to listen.

01:26:18.380 And it's just – it appears to me that this whole thing is amateur hour.

01:26:23.020 And that is disturbing because you have a killer on the loose.

01:26:26.280 Wow, you guys are rough.

01:26:27.440 And they're telling that – they're telling Providence residents to send their little kids to school this week because there's no threat.

01:26:34.820 They don't know that.

01:26:36.660 The mayor keeps saying that.

01:26:38.200 There's a killer on the loose.

01:26:39.580 We have no idea whether he has left Providence or whether the motive is to kill a bunch of young people.

01:26:45.880 Like, there's zero chance I'd be sending my children to school in Providence, Rhode Island this week.

01:26:49.780 It just – yet again, it's this, like, woke mayor who wants to pretend it's all rainbows and unicorns.

01:26:56.840 Meanwhile, two people are dead and nearly 10 others are still fighting for their lives, Arthur.

01:27:01.160 No, I mean, what you just said about sending your kids to school and them saying there's no threat.

01:27:05.640 I mean, I don't know how you could say that, right?

01:27:07.400 You've got a killer on the train who's going into schools and killing people, number one.

01:27:12.500 Number two, I mean, to show you that – forget my objectivity.

01:27:17.640 My dear friend who just retired as the chief of the NYPD, John Schell, he was the chief uniformed officer, he called me.

01:27:25.040 He goes, I feel like I want to go up there and help them.

01:27:27.560 He goes, these press conferences are train wrecks.

01:27:30.140 He goes, nobody – there's no consistency.

01:27:32.140 Nobody knows what they're saying and what they're doing.

01:27:34.300 He goes, it's really, really bad.

01:27:36.260 But he was saying it not to be critical but, like, to be helpful.

01:27:40.040 So I agree with you.

01:27:41.280 One other term I just – again, from Megyn Kelly, I'm learning a lot in this episode.

01:27:46.740 Someone gave me a pin last week that just said, be kind.

01:27:50.260 So I went to this holiday party and I wore it.

01:27:52.540 And Diana in my office goes, what the hell is that?

01:27:55.520 I go, I don't know.

01:27:56.360 Someone gave it to me.

01:27:57.260 She goes, that's virtue signaling.

01:27:59.260 I go, what the hell is that?

01:28:00.660 Right on, Diana.

01:28:01.260 I go, what the hell does that mean?

01:28:02.820 What is virtue signaling?

01:28:04.540 It means like, oh, let me –

01:28:05.640 What do you mean?

01:28:06.300 How did I not know that term?

01:28:07.860 Like, you're a kind, Arthur.

01:28:08.800 That's – it's the same as the liberal lawn sign.

01:28:12.600 In this house, we believe in kindness, tolerance.

01:28:16.440 Two doors down.

01:28:16.980 None of which they actually believe.

01:28:18.480 None.

01:28:18.980 I got it two doors down.

01:28:20.120 I got the liberal lawn sign.

01:28:21.600 And then next to them has a Trump bumper sticker.

01:28:23.020 Don't put on a pin.

01:28:23.860 Next to them, the back window has a Trump bumper sticker.

01:28:26.340 The other one has your sign.

01:28:27.620 And I'm the one who's shoveling both of their sidewalks to keep the peace.

01:28:31.100 Don't put on a pin.

01:28:32.040 Don't put on a pin with any message.

01:28:33.720 It's just a bad idea.

01:28:34.740 Just steer clear of the pins.

01:28:35.380 All right, look, I got no pins.

01:28:36.660 All right, I got to go.

01:28:38.020 So I love you guys, but I got a middle of honor winner here.

01:28:41.280 So goodbye.

01:28:42.120 All right.

01:28:42.260 It's great to see you both.

01:28:43.620 Merry Christmas.

01:28:45.440 I'll see you.

01:28:45.980 Merry Christmas to you, too.

01:28:48.540 All right, guys.

01:28:50.620 You bet.

01:28:51.240 Go to mktruecrime.com, and you can subscribe to the show, their show, however you want.

01:28:56.560 You can watch it on YouTube.

01:28:57.880 You can take it in via podcast.

01:28:59.500 And truly, it's a hit.

01:29:00.420 They take on all the latest cases.

01:29:02.340 And yes, you heard, like with true trial lawyers' minds, we'll dissect it for you in a way you

01:29:08.000 will not hear anyplace else.

01:29:09.780 Up next, Dakota Meyer.

01:29:11.920 Do you know that he is the first man to receive the Medal of Honor as a living recipient since

01:29:20.460 1973?

01:29:21.880 This guy is a walking jewel, and he is here next.

01:29:27.260 Don't miss him.

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01:30:28.180 Last night, President Trump escalating pressure on Venezuela, announcing a total blockade of

01:30:37.320 all sanctioned oil tankers entering or leaving the country and declaring President Maduro's

01:30:42.500 regime a foreign terrorist organization.

01:30:45.800 It's the very latest different way President Trump and his Pentagon have approached the

01:30:50.200 military and foreign policy.

01:30:51.740 My next guest, Dakota Meyer, made headlines earlier this year for re-enlisting in the

01:30:57.640 U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, returning to service after 15 years out of uniform.

01:31:02.740 Dakota is best known for his heroic actions during the Battle of Ganjgal on September 8, 2009,

01:31:10.100 in Afghanistan's Kunar province.

01:31:11.660 As a 21-year-old corporal, Meyer repeatedly drove into an ambush under heavy enemy fire

01:31:18.780 to rescue his wounded brothers and recover fallen service members, actions that saved 36 lives,

01:31:26.300 including 13 Americans and 23 Afghan personnel, earning him the Medal of Honor in 2011.

01:31:34.080 He is now preparing to head back to training camp.

01:31:38.440 Dakota, so great to have you back.

01:31:39.920 What do you think you want back in?

01:31:42.240 Yes.

01:31:42.700 Well, there's quite a few of us, but I was the first to receive it for the Marines since

01:31:46.900 the Vietnam War.

01:31:47.560 But yeah, I mean, I went back in.

01:31:48.700 Some of the guys have been serving, but yeah, I think I am the only one that's currently serving.

01:31:55.880 I do think that, I don't know.

01:31:57.680 It's awesome, though.

01:31:58.420 It's been so awesome going back in.

01:31:59.780 I mean, I just felt like I had more to give.

01:32:01.360 And I mean, gosh, it's like, you know, I do think that we need it right now as well.

01:32:07.340 Wow.

01:32:07.780 But wait, now how old are you?

01:32:08.780 I knew that was coming.

01:32:11.960 You're still relatively young.

01:32:13.060 No, not compared to these kids.

01:32:15.100 You know, like I'm 37.

01:32:17.620 You know, I'm old enough.

01:32:19.040 Like these kids love to point out to me.

01:32:20.820 I was in some training over the summer and they love to point out to me that I was old

01:32:24.900 enough.

01:32:25.240 I was older than their mom.

01:32:26.860 So, you know.

01:32:30.360 Wait, so it still sounds very young to me.

01:32:32.200 But, so is there an age limit on when you can re-enlist in the reserves?

01:32:36.220 No.

01:32:36.620 You know, like I, what happened was, is I was speaking to these Marines like I do quite a

01:32:41.260 bit.

01:32:41.440 I go around and I love to talk to leadership to these, you know, NCOs, which is kind of

01:32:47.020 like our mid-level leaders inside of the military.

01:32:49.620 And I was speaking to this group and this kid stood up to me and he goes, you know, knowing

01:32:54.440 what you know, I'm kind of at this point of re-enlistment.

01:32:57.840 And he said, you know, you know, knowing what you know, like I have a family, you have a family,

01:33:01.820 like, is it still worth serving?

01:33:04.320 And I was like, absolutely.

01:33:06.080 And I could just tell that, that, that probably didn't come off right.

01:33:11.200 And I felt terrible about it because I'm telling them that it's worth them serving is I'm going

01:33:15.780 to go home and I'm not having to meet any standards.

01:33:17.840 I'm not having, my family's not having to sacrifice of what this country's asking.

01:33:21.620 And I felt like it was one of the most unbecoming things that I had said.

01:33:24.780 And so I looked at them and I said, you know what, you know what, like, I'm so glad this

01:33:28.560 question got asked.

01:33:29.440 I'm going to walk out of here and I'm going to do everything I can to come back in the

01:33:32.120 Marine Corps because it's not right for me to stand out here and tell you, yes, it's worth

01:33:36.560 serving.

01:33:37.380 Yes, it matters.

01:33:38.160 And all of this is I'm going home and not having to sacrifice anything that you are.

01:33:41.980 And I'm asking your family to.

01:33:43.360 So I don't think it's right.

01:33:44.720 And I'm going to, I'm going to make this right.

01:33:46.440 And I'm going to show you how much I believe in serving.

01:33:48.600 And so I did that.

01:33:49.780 I walked away, you know, 18 months later, uh, jumping through all the hoops and, uh, all

01:33:53.960 that.

01:33:54.240 Yeah.

01:33:54.360 Like I, I didn't have to get an age waiver or anything like that.

01:33:57.240 Um, you know, I was just able to reenlist and I was able to come back in and continue

01:34:00.780 my service.

01:34:01.480 And, uh, yeah, I mean, and in the side of it.

01:34:06.060 Okay.

01:34:06.460 Now, um, you will forgive me for asking you this cause we've talked about this before and I

01:34:10.040 know you're, I know how you are in this.

01:34:11.380 There was a period at which it's fair to say you had let your tight physique as a Marine

01:34:17.640 go.

01:34:18.700 We talked about when you were awarded the medal of honor by president Obama and you were

01:34:23.840 actually drunk in the moment and not in your, your peak shape.

01:34:28.520 Actually, we'll just show it.

01:34:29.260 Cause it's, it's quite a moment.

01:34:30.220 This is a video of it.

01:34:31.600 Yeah.

01:34:32.680 Back in 2011.

01:34:33.560 Hold on.

01:34:34.080 Let's watch it.

01:34:34.940 Stand by.

01:34:35.820 Here he is.

01:34:37.160 You're standing there.

01:34:38.800 You cannot tell that you're drunk, but you told me that you were, and you are not at

01:34:44.600 your most fit, but I know from our behind the scenes conversations, you have been getting

01:34:49.740 fit.

01:34:50.080 You've been working out like a fiend.

01:34:51.340 So do you feel that you can live up to the Pete Hegseth, no fat people mandate in the

01:34:58.700 modern day military?

01:34:59.940 I mean, absolutely.

01:35:00.620 Look, I have to meet all the standards, you know, going back in the first thing I, one

01:35:03.500 of the first things I had to do was meet the physical fitness standards.

01:35:06.020 You know, I will say this, uh, while a lot of the other branches, uh, possibly have let

01:35:12.440 the standards go.

01:35:13.220 The one thing that the United States Marine Corps does is it holds standards pretty well.

01:35:17.340 I mean, we usually set the, the Marine Corps usually sets the standards and holds

01:35:20.420 the standards to a level that none of the other branches do.

01:35:23.640 Uh, and I, and I will say that confidently.

01:35:25.480 And so, yeah, I mean, coming back in, like I've had to meet all the standards that everybody

01:35:28.820 else did just literally two weeks ago.

01:35:30.840 I had to meet, um, meet the bi-angual, um, fitness, fitness standard, you know, the fitness

01:35:36.780 standard, uh, combat fitness test.

01:35:39.180 I got height and weight.

01:35:40.580 I got taped.

01:35:41.360 I got all of it.

01:35:42.220 So I'm, I'm meeting, I'm meeting my good friend Pete's standards.

01:35:47.720 Nice.

01:35:48.220 Okay, good.

01:35:49.200 Uh, I, I say this judging from the comfort of my studio where it's been literally a year

01:35:54.180 since I've done anything meaningfully aerobic.

01:35:55.840 So, uh, no judgment whatsoever.

01:35:57.400 In fact, I'd like to know what that test is so I could see if I could pass it.

01:36:00.460 Um, okay, let's keep going.

01:36:01.960 Cause there's been, yeah, go, you go.

01:36:03.680 I'll come to you and we'll run it.

01:36:04.720 Well, what do I have to do?

01:36:05.800 Well, what, what, what, what do I, what are my goals?

01:36:08.940 Take a physical fitness test to get a hundred at, at, at, but my age, um, it's a, uh, three

01:36:15.480 mile run, uh, 18 minutes is perfect.

01:36:17.960 And then you go into pull-ups, uh, 21 pull-ups, 24, the younger kids have to do 24, but at

01:36:24.120 my age, I get to do 21, uh, dead hang pull-ups.

01:36:27.020 And then we do a three minute and 45 second plank, which is the physical fitness test,

01:36:32.300 the combat fitness test.

01:36:33.720 Okay.

01:36:33.920 I can do that.

01:36:34.500 I can do the plank.

01:36:35.220 Okay.

01:36:35.440 Well, I certainly can't do a pull-up.

01:36:37.680 I can't even do one pull-up and a dead hang pull-up.

01:36:40.360 I mean, no world to the way I know where this is a controversy, but do the women have to

01:36:43.620 do all that too?

01:36:44.640 You know, I, I don't, I don't know.

01:36:45.940 Like, you know, this is, this has been another dynamic that I, you know, I don't know.

01:36:49.400 I don't know what the standards are for, for the female side of it.

01:36:52.620 I've never had to beat them.

01:36:54.060 Um, so I don't know.

01:36:55.240 And so I, I, I, I would, I mean, I think Pete said months ago, we're, we're not changing.

01:37:00.140 We're not having two standards for men and women.

01:37:01.660 Like if you want to be a Marine, you're going to have to do what the men do as the women,

01:37:05.000 which I'm fine with.

01:37:05.720 I mean, there are some women who can do it.

01:37:07.240 There are some real bad-asses who work on their upper body strength.

01:37:09.780 I just happen to have none.

01:37:10.980 So I'm not on the list, but I, I'm going to work on that three, 3.5 miles in 18 minutes.

01:37:17.440 That seems like something I could potentially do.

01:37:19.120 Okay.

01:37:19.500 Three miles in 18 minutes.

01:37:21.400 And I can definitely do a plank for three minutes and 45 seconds that I can do.

01:37:26.260 And then the pull-ups.

01:37:27.420 No.

01:37:27.900 Are there sit-up requirements?

01:37:29.060 Those I could do.

01:37:29.900 Uh, no, there used to be, there used to be a hundred crunches in under two minutes.

01:37:32.820 How about push-ups?

01:37:35.380 Um, so no, we don't, we don't do push-ups in, in the Marine Corps.

01:37:38.760 Dang.

01:37:39.260 Yeah.

01:37:40.000 That's a, this is like, they, that's the hardest thing is the pull-ups.

01:37:42.860 Okay.

01:37:42.980 We got to keep going.

01:37:44.120 Let's talk about, let's talk about the, um, the controversy involving the seditious six

01:37:49.960 as, uh, the Pentagon has labeled them.

01:37:51.840 Um, and this whole bit about how you shouldn't follow an illegal order.

01:37:56.160 And it's, it's ongoing now.

01:37:57.780 The Pentagon, while it threatened Senator Mark Kelly with a possible, uh, inquiry, they said

01:38:02.500 they'd opened one into whether he had committed some sort of, uh, breach of protocol in joining

01:38:07.620 in this video and trying to advise troops to get ready to disobey an order from the commander

01:38:12.100 in chief in case it's illegal.

01:38:13.460 Well, even though that's technically something that soldiers are already told, um, where do

01:38:18.660 you stand on it?

01:38:19.220 How did you see that video and how did you see the Pentagon's response?

01:38:22.800 Well, context matters.

01:38:23.980 I think we're not talking about an isolated statement.

01:38:27.680 We're talking about, you know, months of them.

01:38:32.000 I mean, okay, well it, yes, that right there was calculated.

01:38:36.320 It was, um, it is like that statement.

01:38:39.720 There's nothing wrong technically with that statement, but what the intentions are of that

01:38:44.980 statement is exactly what cannot be ignored or denied.

01:38:48.500 I mean, they have gone months of calling legal acts illegal, right?

01:38:54.240 They're not the law.

01:38:55.080 Like they make the laws, but they don't execute and they don't hold the laws.

01:38:58.520 I mean, that's why we have a system that does it right.

01:39:00.840 And just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's illegal.

01:39:03.800 And just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean that it's illegal.

01:39:06.560 Right.

01:39:06.940 And so I think that whenever you put this into context and, and take it out of just an isolated

01:39:12.180 event, you have to add up everything else that comes with that.

01:39:15.920 And so I think that, look, I mean, what they're doing is, is they're trying to undermine the

01:39:21.120 institution that they're putting a responsibility all the way down.

01:39:24.760 I mean, and if they truly believed that it was illegal, they would go through the legal

01:39:29.600 routes and they wouldn't be making this a spectacle out on, you know, on, on, on the news, right?

01:39:35.020 Like the intentions are very clear.

01:39:36.760 And so I think that their intentions are what we have got to take into consideration in this.

01:39:41.600 And I think they have to be held accountable because let me say this, I would expect them

01:39:45.960 to be held accountable.

01:39:46.760 I mean, they're not even being held accountable.

01:39:48.480 What happens whenever a, a court system is ruling what we are doing as far as the national

01:39:53.840 guard or all of this, that it is legal and they have called it illegal.

01:39:58.780 You know, what, who do you blame whenever one of somebody stands up because they believe

01:40:03.360 these trusted leaders are supposed to be trusted leaders.

01:40:07.060 And yeah, who have sown doubt unjustifiably becomes the problem.

01:40:11.200 Is it the person that says it or the person that believed the person who was in the position,

01:40:16.340 right?

01:40:16.540 Like who becomes who, who's held accountable.

01:40:18.700 And so I think it's a huge issue.

01:40:21.580 Yeah.

01:40:22.160 And it's not resolved yet.

01:40:23.340 Um, I started the segment by mentioning what's happening in Venezuela.

01:40:27.760 Now Trump trying to stop these oil tankers from going to and from, uh, Venezuela.

01:40:33.100 He's been hitting the drug boats to and from Venezuela.

01:40:36.080 There have been many, many speculations about whether this is all really about regime change

01:40:40.540 because technically Maduro lost an election, but he's just refusing to go.

01:40:44.620 Um, a lot of the more isolationist, right?

01:40:47.400 They don't want to see us getting involved in Venezuela.

01:40:49.360 They do not want to exchange war in the Middle East for war south of the border with Venezuela.

01:40:55.540 Um, Trump denies it's about regime change, though.

01:40:58.120 He doesn't deny it that forcefully.

01:40:59.520 And Susie Weil seems to have suggested that's what this is about in her interview with Vanity Fair.

01:41:03.900 So how do you see the issue of what we're doing in Venezuela?

01:41:07.660 Look, I think we're trying to make these things too complicated.

01:41:10.580 My question to you is this, is do you, and this is really what I care about.

01:41:15.280 Do you think any of those, like, are we going to argue back and forth?

01:41:18.760 Do you think the boats that we are hitting and we are taking lethal action on,

01:41:22.620 do we think that they have drugs on them?

01:41:24.400 Yeah, I do.

01:41:27.600 Then what does it matter?

01:41:28.940 I mean, at any point, like, at what point are we going, why do we, like, like, look,

01:41:34.460 as long as we are doing, as long as we are protecting America, that is all that should matter.

01:41:39.740 If those boats, if we believe that those boats have drugs on them,

01:41:43.180 and those drugs are coming to the United States of America, we should kill every one of them.

01:41:48.080 It's that simple.

01:41:48.800 I think we're trying to complex this, and I think that we are just getting into this.

01:41:52.780 A, we haven't gone into Venezuela.

01:41:55.480 We haven't done anything.

01:41:56.660 We are sitting here.

01:41:57.780 We're making statements.

01:41:58.760 We're drawing lines, and we're putting America first.

01:42:02.220 And so we're putting America's interests first.

01:42:04.600 Like, what is wrong with that?

01:42:05.680 And I don't understand why we're arguing about this.

01:42:08.600 And what I am so sick and tired of, because, look, I have a Medal of Honor because of this.

01:42:12.040 I have a Medal of Honor because of specific statements,

01:42:14.440 like the insinuations and the fear that someone like Mark Kelly is doing.

01:42:18.800 And the Democrats, and no, you know what, take the Democrats out of it, just leaders.

01:42:22.560 I have a Medal of Honor for simple, for these simple facts,

01:42:25.380 and this is why I'm so, so pissed off about it,

01:42:28.880 is because they put in, they send us over there.

01:42:32.000 They're, like, we don't make the decisions on who we're going to go fight and who we don't,

01:42:35.280 but then they send us over there, and they put in their, you know, idealistic rules of engagement,

01:42:40.200 and then they put the fear of taking action into it,

01:42:44.120 and they put all of these, like, seeds of doubt into the people who are having to live and die

01:42:49.620 from the consequences of their decisions and their actions or their lack of,

01:42:54.480 all for their political gain.

01:42:56.400 And it's not the part of us dying and going and fighting for America is not what we get pissed about.

01:43:02.000 It's the sheer fact that they send us over there,

01:43:04.480 and then they try to make us question our decisions.

01:43:06.660 And then at any point that some of these policies and rules of engagement,

01:43:10.480 like in my case, they want to protect the place and the other people

01:43:16.180 more than they want to protect the troops that they sent over there to do the fighting.

01:43:21.200 And so when you go back to this Venezuela thing,

01:43:22.940 I think, like, everybody's trying to fill in a bunch of hypotheticals.

01:43:26.240 And let's sit back.

01:43:27.320 Look, at the end of the day, like, do we all know somebody who is taking drugs

01:43:31.880 and who has lost their life and whose family members are losing people and all this aspect?

01:43:36.260 Like, I mean, let's talk about it.

01:43:38.120 I mean, like, I think that no matter what, if you are here to harm America,

01:43:43.240 if you are here to hurt Americans, we should never put anything above that.

01:43:49.720 And you are an enemy, period.

01:43:53.300 Yeah.

01:43:54.380 That's how Trump sees it.

01:43:55.840 Trump sees it.

01:43:56.560 Yep.

01:43:56.840 His critics say, well, I mean, his critics say a lot.

01:43:58.880 They say there's no war to declare.

01:44:00.000 They say you can't give the death penalty for drug running.

01:44:02.620 It's not a capital offense.

01:44:04.160 But they there's I don't think there's any circumstance under which they would back these

01:44:07.960 strikes.

01:44:08.680 And Trump's DOJ has told him and not just DOJ, but the lawyers in the military,

01:44:12.400 the JAG Corps, have told him he's totally within his rights as the commander in chief

01:44:15.440 to do this, especially because he's now declared them a foreign terrorist organization.

01:44:18.980 All right.

01:44:19.160 Stand by.

01:44:19.660 I've got to take a quick break and then we're going to come back for a few more minutes.

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01:45:43.640 More politics and many more.

01:45:45.820 It's bold, no BS news.

01:45:47.860 Only on the Megyn Kelly channel, Sirius XM 111 and on the Sirius XM app.

01:45:56.980 Back now with Dakota Meyer.

01:45:59.100 Find his work on Substack at the Bluff.

01:46:01.800 That's the B-L-U-F.

01:46:05.080 Dakota, there was a terrible attack over in Syria on our National Guard's troops.

01:46:11.560 And then there was an attack back at home on our National Guard's troops by this person

01:46:17.400 who took them out.

01:46:18.200 And so things do seem to be getting more dangerous.

01:46:21.160 You know, we had an ISIS attack on Jews in Australia.

01:46:24.740 We had this ISIS attack in Syria on our troops.

01:46:28.300 It seems like Middle Eastern-inspired terror is making a comeback right now.

01:46:36.000 And it does seem like, you know, our troops domestically, like those National Guard troops

01:46:41.080 who were killed by, allegedly by that guy who drove cross-country to kill them, who may

01:46:45.220 or may not have been radicalized, again, possibly inspired by ISIS terror, certainly seemed that

01:46:49.700 way, has got people feeling a little on edge.

01:46:52.400 How do you view this apparent resurgence of an old enemy?

01:46:58.780 Yeah, I mean, look, I think that at any point in time you identify with something, whether

01:47:04.440 it's religious, whether it's left or right, I mean, it doesn't matter.

01:47:07.920 I think you're going to have to stand and you're going to have to defend it.

01:47:10.040 I think today that violence is going through the roof because, I mean, I think it's just,

01:47:15.060 it's more of a, it's more of what we are, our life is going to be like, right?

01:47:19.020 I mean, this is just, it's not going away.

01:47:20.920 You can bank on that.

01:47:22.840 I think what we've seen in Australia is something that we have a bunch of sleeper cells here.

01:47:26.340 You know, we've got Director Gabbard who just came out and her team, like literally confirming

01:47:30.700 that there's at least 2,000 that have ties back to extremists.

01:47:36.240 And this is not something that's unique, but what is unique is that, again, we've had four

01:47:41.120 years of not America first, of us not being able to stand for what's right, of us not protecting

01:47:47.560 and putting the United States of America first.

01:47:49.280 And that's something that cannot be tolerated.

01:47:51.280 And so I just think that, look, the reality of what life is like going to be like daily

01:47:55.940 is going to be that, look, we have enemies.

01:47:58.660 You know, I just, I heard a conversation going on before I came on about, you know, don't want

01:48:04.200 to send our kids to school until the threat's gone.

01:48:07.020 Well, the reality is there's a threat there every single day.

01:48:09.580 Like the reality is if you're living in a bubble that there's not a threat every day, you're

01:48:14.860 naive and you're just hoping and living on a false insurance policy, it's there, it's

01:48:19.220 there.

01:48:19.380 But that's, that's, that's, we're not going to cower to terrorism.

01:48:21.820 We're not going to cower to any of that.

01:48:23.420 What we need to do is we just need to be prepared.

01:48:24.900 We need to be ready.

01:48:26.040 And we just need to understand that this is going to be part of our life until we start

01:48:29.580 putting this country first and still we, until we start only allowing people here that

01:48:35.040 are, that want to be America, that love America, right?

01:48:38.380 I mean, when we're allowing people to live in this country that hate this country, well, what

01:48:42.880 do you expect?

01:48:44.140 What do you expect?

01:48:45.040 Right.

01:48:45.280 I mean, like, like this is not, it doesn't take, uh, it's there, it's, it's not a, it's

01:48:50.360 not mental jujitsu, right?

01:48:51.620 I mean, this is pretty simple.

01:48:52.720 Like when you allow, allow, you know, uh, rhetoric to be spoken about, about hating America,

01:48:59.160 when we have leaders, elected leaders that hate America, when we're voting for people

01:49:04.680 that hate America, and then we're like accepting, you know, all of this, like, look, the silent

01:49:10.220 majority is going to have to stop being silent because the loud minority is overcoming and

01:49:17.520 they are setting the standards for what this country looks like.

01:49:19.880 So, I mean, we can get into details of, yeah, I mean, I think all of this is horrible.

01:49:23.780 I think it's terrible.

01:49:24.500 I don't know that we need to draw it back and forth to, you know, one demographic over

01:49:29.580 the other, right?

01:49:30.480 I mean, I just, I think that it just comes down to people.

01:49:33.700 Well, it's very interesting.

01:49:34.280 That's a, that's an interesting security, uh, analysis because I will say, you know,

01:49:38.580 the guards, they'll tell you security guards, of course I've had plenty, um, will tell you

01:49:43.840 that the, the, if the guy standing next to you with a gun is the one who actually has

01:49:50.100 to stop someone from trying to kill you, there's been a massive system failure that like your

01:49:56.320 security team should be looking at threats, threat profile.

01:50:00.880 How do you keep the person safe?

01:50:02.420 It's almost like, look at president Trump, you know, it's like the, the, a would be assassin

01:50:06.840 should not be able to get anywhere near him and threats online should be thoroughly investigated.

01:50:13.560 The president shouldn't be offered up to any venue that hasn't been secured.

01:50:17.440 You know, it's like if the, if the secret service with the guns are actually taking out

01:50:21.060 a potential shooter, something's gone catastrophically wrong.

01:50:23.640 And it's almost the same with our foreign policy.

01:50:25.700 You know, if we're getting ISIS lovers shooting our national guardsmen here domestically, there's

01:50:31.560 been a system failure long before they actually got in the presence of the national guardsmen.

01:50:35.800 I think that's what you're saying.

01:50:37.080 And I totally agree with that.

01:50:38.520 It made me wonder because when I saw what was happening in Providence, for example, yeah,

01:50:42.060 you're right.

01:50:43.140 Every day there's risk.

01:50:44.280 There's more risk now with an active shooter on the loose.

01:50:46.860 And the problem I have in Providence is it's not Texas, you know, no one there is going

01:50:52.620 to have a gun at those schools to protect children this week.

01:50:55.580 You know, like there's not going to be a good guy with a gun.

01:50:57.660 And I wonder, you know, I thought to myself, how about all these ex-military guys who would

01:51:03.080 love to use some of their skills to protect defenseless American children, you know, by standing

01:51:08.860 outside of a school armed and ready for bad guys.

01:51:11.660 Like, is there any sort of a program where that could happen?

01:51:14.460 And have you ever spoken with military guys about their willingness?

01:51:17.400 You know, I just, it seems like we have such a wealth of talent from guys who no longer

01:51:22.040 are on active duty that we don't tap into.

01:51:25.020 Yeah.

01:51:25.420 I mean, I, I don't, I don't know.

01:51:26.520 I don't know that that, like, I, I don't know.

01:51:29.020 I mean, my, my kids have a, a, my kids have a, a, you know, look, a person at their school.

01:51:37.060 Um, you live in the South.

01:51:39.260 Well, I mean, I, I do, but I also don't think that he's going to stop a shooter.

01:51:42.880 Right.

01:51:43.240 I also don't trust the training and the mindset and the mentality.

01:51:46.980 I mean, you know, I, I, I don't.

01:51:48.640 And so I just, I, I, I, I don't know that that's going to be the solution.

01:51:53.480 I think that the solution is going to be is that, um, you know, if we don't, if we don't

01:51:57.720 feel that the baseline protection of our children, uh, if we don't feel secure and we can't sit

01:52:02.900 here and defend ourselves and take care, if we have to dial 911 in order to have somebody

01:52:07.380 come protect us, we probably shouldn't live in that state.

01:52:09.940 You know what I mean?

01:52:12.700 Like there's a personal responsibility to this, right.

01:52:14.820 Of, of why are we outsourcing?

01:52:17.260 And I got, I get part of it, but we should, part of this comes down to, we have outsourced

01:52:21.880 all of our responsibilities and, and we are outsourcing, um, you know, Hey, we're going

01:52:27.420 to try to, to, to get it.

01:52:28.980 We know this, but I mean, okay.

01:52:30.160 If you start putting armed people to where, you know, the schools aren't soft targets,

01:52:33.800 well, guess what?

01:52:34.260 They're going to catch them at a, at a football game.

01:52:35.840 I mean, they're always looking for soft targets, right?

01:52:38.300 And that's why you look at, I mean, the, these, these hardened criminals or whatever

01:52:42.220 you call them, I call them, you know, hardened, cowardly criminals.

01:52:45.460 Um, you know, they go and they prey on people and they, crime is so high in places where it

01:52:51.180 makes it, the laws allow them to go and to operate freely.

01:52:54.380 Cause they don't want to stand up against people or places that will not tolerate it.

01:52:59.080 And so, you know, while you're not going to stop a shooting here, what you will happen

01:53:02.600 is, is that, uh, I am like 10 minutes from my daughter's school and I have a gun in my

01:53:09.000 vehicle and like, I would go help, right?

01:53:11.520 Like you're not going to get away with hurting people here and you're going to have people

01:53:14.300 that are going to stand up for it.

01:53:15.180 And you have to worry about that all around the state of Texas.

01:53:19.260 And so, you know, I think that we have a personal responsibility of where we're raising

01:53:23.780 our families and where we're at.

01:53:26.000 And if the laws are allowing us that at a minimum laws are made, I mean, I mean, you

01:53:30.560 get this better than anybody laws are there to do what, to protect people.

01:53:35.380 And at the point that laws are there or being put in place or people are being elected leaders

01:53:40.200 are keeping us from the ability to protect ourselves or our families.

01:53:45.180 Well, we have a responsibility to move, to live in places where we can do that.

01:53:52.220 That's true.

01:53:53.020 I mean, you think about what happened in Australia, the strictest gun control laws anywhere.

01:53:59.420 And what did we see?

01:54:00.700 I mean, we honestly, what we saw was four female cops cowering next to their cars and no good

01:54:07.040 guys with guns because they didn't have any.

01:54:09.420 And they were just sitting ducks, getting shot by the bad guys who did have the guns, who had

01:54:14.480 been on the watch list, but then removed, like investigated his potential terror threats,

01:54:20.180 at least the one, the son. And then they said, no, he's not. He's good. And then he went off

01:54:24.220 for a month to the Philippines, an area of it that is known for terror training, for a

01:54:29.020 month with the dad, didn't set off any alarm bells, even though the guy had already been

01:54:32.660 like, hmm, he's on our radar. And they knew the father had six guns. Those people get six

01:54:38.400 guns and drive to the beach with three ISIS flags on their car. And it takes 10 minutes for a good

01:54:46.000 guy, a cop with a gun and someone willing to actually use it. Unlike the cowering female

01:54:50.700 police officer to save people. It's so frustrating. But to your point about like, choose where you live

01:54:56.780 and be mindful of like what you're getting. I think people in Australia think that they're

01:55:02.040 immune to gun violence now after all these years, they've had attacks, but it's been a long time

01:55:06.160 because their laws. And sadly, it was a reminder that no one's immune.

01:55:09.820 Well, that's what they've been told, right? I mean, this is what they've been preached to is like,

01:55:12.800 hey, where we take away guns and gun laws are strict. It's going to be safer. I mean,

01:55:16.200 that's what they've been told. And I mean, it's, you know, and the problem with this, Megan,

01:55:21.200 like the real problem of why we have to stand up and we have to start calling things where it is,

01:55:25.780 is, is that eventually there's going to be a generation that knows no different than

01:55:30.620 violence. And by this being the norm, they're not going to know a time where there was safe streets,

01:55:35.940 where there was, you know, where, where there were, where there were people who could stand up and

01:55:39.820 say something or people who could take action. So now they just watch people take inaction and

01:55:43.440 we've accepted inaction, right? Like, like it is safer and better for you to do nothing and let

01:55:48.100 other people suffer than it is for you to go do this. And I blame lawyers. I blame, I blame lawyers.

01:55:52.900 This is the problem with like, the law has been weaponized in order for people to profit.

01:55:57.960 And now it's put people in a position to where they have to decide if, do I do what's morally right

01:56:03.180 or what's legally right? And most of the time, a lot of times those don't coexist. And, and,

01:56:07.600 you know, I think the sickest part to me watching Australia was, was watching the video. Like,

01:56:13.560 I want you to watch that video and like, like my gut wrenched of people filming it. Those,

01:56:20.080 you know, those shooters, like, did you see them even having to run around? Like they weren't scared.

01:56:24.120 They weren't fear that anybody was going to stop them. They were like, one guy behind,

01:56:28.380 he had the run of the places on. Right. And he just stand up shooting people freely and nobody is

01:56:33.220 willing to go take this guy on. Right. Like, I mean, well, two people tried, two people tried.

01:56:38.900 You see, okay. You got three out of how many, out of how many, look at all the people filming.

01:56:43.080 I want you to watch these people. And I just like, I look at it and I go,

01:56:47.860 what would you want somebody to do if that, if your kids were out there, if your kids were there,

01:56:55.300 what would you want people to do? And I think that's how we should all handle ourselves.

01:57:00.520 And I just like, I think it's just, it's sad. It's so sad that, that, you know, you had three

01:57:06.620 people taking action. You had three people, two of them lost their lives. One of them actually,

01:57:11.500 you know, took the gun from a guy. But I mean, like those, those terrorists, they, they knew that,

01:57:19.380 I mean, they were just walking around freely shooting people in daylight, broad daylight.

01:57:23.420 It does, it does make you think like, would they have done that in Houston, Texas? No,

01:57:28.700 no, they wouldn't. They wouldn't. They, they know they would know exactly what they'd get down there.

01:57:33.160 And that's a good thing. That's a good thing for the citizens of Houston. All right. I want to end

01:57:36.460 it on this because I thought this is an interesting post you made. You on your sub stack were making the

01:57:43.140 point to young men that your feed is creating the man you are becoming. This is very important.

01:57:51.160 Your social media and the consumption that comes through passively to you every day does change

01:57:59.720 who you are. I mean, it, it actually, it's really important to step away from that. And also to

01:58:04.720 curate that. It's almost why, like, I try to go over to Instagram as often as possible, because over

01:58:11.020 there, almost everything I follow is like a, a positive thing, you know, like a, something about

01:58:16.580 how you can be more healthy, like a Maha type stuff, you know, like, it's stuff like, oh, these are

01:58:22.180 supplements you might want to consider, or here's a workout you could do, or just like this. Now I'm

01:58:26.320 very into here are the best eight gifts you can get your son for Christmas or your daughter, you

01:58:30.880 know, like that's, that's positive. Twitter is a sewer fight and too much time on Twitter can make you

01:58:37.520 comfortable with sewer fights and a sewer fighter, which, okay, it can be useful scale, but it's also

01:58:42.240 not really wanting where you want to spend your time or who you want to be. Seems to me, this is

01:58:47.060 in part the point you were making. Can you expand on it? Yeah. I mean, look, you know, we all grew up

01:58:51.620 with the understanding the term of you are what you eat. Um, right. I mean, you are what you eat. And

01:58:56.860 that was like a simple phrase that that was my nutrition, uh, talk whenever I was back in public

01:59:01.860 school. Um, now it's like, you know, you are what you consume mentally, emotionally, uh, you are what

01:59:09.820 you consume and write in like, you know, what you're bringing in and the conversations, you know,

01:59:14.080 it's, and it comes down to people, places, and things. And that's what I was trying to point out

01:59:18.860 in my, you know, my YouTube video, because look, I have came out here lately and I do believe this

01:59:23.920 with every moral fiber of my being and I'll, I'll defend it till the day I die. I believe every

01:59:28.620 problem we have in the world right now is caused by weak men, period, hard stop. And I can draw it back

01:59:34.480 to that. Um, and so look, I don't know that you're going to change adult men, but I think what we can

01:59:38.580 do is we can influence the next generation of men and we're going to have to, we're going to need

01:59:43.180 them to step up and to be strong and to be kind and to be leaders. You know, we've got this war on,

01:59:48.580 on masculinity and I do understand toxic masculinity, but masculinity, we, it's very important to the

01:59:54.780 survival of any, of any like aspect of society. And so a society that makes, that makes men is going

02:00:03.780 to eventually fail. But, uh, men who strong men, good men who make a society is going to prevail.

02:00:10.820 And so we're going to have to get it back. And so, yeah, I was talking about this, that it starts

02:00:14.020 with your mindset. I mean, everything that you do comes down to mindset. What you believe is what

02:00:19.320 you will achieve and you can never achieve more than you believe. And so I think that like, you have

02:00:24.000 to believe that there's potential in it. And that is the American spirit, Megan. Like it's the American

02:00:28.540 spirit of people believing that they can perform the impossible against all odds. There is no logic

02:00:34.200 to the American spirit, right? I mean, you take, you go back, we're about to be 250 years, 70 people

02:00:40.320 stood up in, and I think it was like 1.5 million at the time, possibly in 13 colonies. Maybe I'm off

02:00:45.700 on that number, but, um, 70 people who had no training, nothing else, but they just believed that

02:00:50.960 they were going to stand up for what was right. And they were not going to live under, uh, you know,

02:00:54.800 this again. And they went up against the most, uh, you know, the most powerful military on the

02:00:59.320 planet. And just because they believe they could do it, they did it. So back to my point is,

02:01:02.900 is like understanding, like your mindset and shaping your mind and chipping away at your mind

02:01:08.700 is conversations. It is the negativity. It is what you're consuming on content. It's video games. It's

02:01:14.720 all of this. All of that is driving you to setting you up to what the rest of you and how you believe

02:01:20.520 and how you handle yourself and what you think is right. And what's not, it's all,

02:01:24.000 it is all doing that. And so, and you've seen it and it's, it's, it's not arguable. And especially

02:01:29.680 when our kids are moldable and they're all looking for something to be part of, because that is what

02:01:33.980 I've seen with this generation. They want to be part of something bigger than themselves. And we've

02:01:38.220 just got to, we can't just walk around and point out what's wrong because that's what we're all doing

02:01:42.460 right now. Like, Oh, this is wrong. This sucks. This sucks. Okay. Well, tell me something better.

02:01:46.260 We're going to have to out market it with something better, not just walk around and point out

02:01:50.260 what's wrong because, well, I mean, we're seeing where that's getting us. And that's,

02:01:53.540 that's what I was trying to get through on the video was what you consume, like is what you're

02:01:58.920 going to eventually become. And, you know, the person you pointed out at the beginning of the

02:02:01.980 show of who I was, I mean, I was a victim, right? I mean, I was, I was hanging around people who were

02:02:07.300 just complaining about service and about how bad life was and, and, you know, trying to make my

02:02:11.980 struggles unique to me. And guess what? It got me, it got me depression, anxiety. It got me, I mean,

02:02:16.760 it literally got me the most out of shape that I've ever been. And I eventually I looked in the mirror and I

02:02:20.920 couldn't even recognize the human being that was standing there. And so, you know,

02:02:25.460 and it wasn't the world's fault. It wasn't my parents' fault. It was my fault. And I need to

02:02:32.480 take responsibility for that so that I could change it.

02:02:36.560 Hmm. Well, as you talk about it, Dakota, I think to myself, I mean, I have two sons and a daughter.

02:02:42.260 How do you raise a leader? How do you raise someone with courage, Dakota Meyer style?

02:02:50.040 You first have to be a leader. You know, I looked in the mirror and the way I call it the mirror

02:02:54.640 check every morning, I look at it and I go, would I be proud if my daughter selected me as their

02:03:02.360 husband? Is that what I expect from them? Because before I can tell them what they should go do,

02:03:07.940 I have to be able to show them and I have to be it. And so I have to set the standard by living

02:03:13.000 the standard. You know, the biggest problem in every aspect of our world right now is hypocrisy.

02:03:18.720 Hypocrisy is killing us. We hold others to a standard we don't hold ourselves to.

02:03:22.260 We expect from others. We don't expect from ourselves. We try to expect other people to

02:03:26.920 be something that we couldn't even be. And it's absolutely insane and it's absurd. And so for me,

02:03:32.600 how I raised my daughters, we have this little, I call it the box. You know,

02:03:37.040 my daughters came in one day and they're, you know, look, they're having to make decisions.

02:03:40.540 This idea of like, Hey, let's, let's keep them young, long. Like you don't get to decide how

02:03:45.760 long they get to be young. You don't get to decide what the world's going to throw at them.

02:03:49.740 You don't get to decide that. And to, to think that you're going to be able to do that is, is,

02:03:54.560 is nothing short of insane right now. And it's going to end up, you're going to end up with a

02:03:58.420 problem like we just seen over this last week, uh, the results of bad parenting. And so,

02:04:03.960 you know, when you look at this, I give my daughters the tools to take on what the world's

02:04:09.600 going to throw at them. So for me, we have the Meyer box. And so the Meyer box, it's got four

02:04:14.760 sides, uh, and it's got one destination, right? And so the box is, is I expect my daughters to be

02:04:20.560 kind, to be respectful, to be strong and to be leaders. And every decision and action that they

02:04:27.640 take must fit in that box. That is the expectation of a Meyer. And, and that is what we are. That is

02:04:34.980 the front and right front front site in the back site of their decisions and actions. And we are

02:04:41.120 aiming at changing the world and making it a better place. And there's nothing, it is not conditional

02:04:46.080 upon how people treat us or the situations or the circumstances that we are in. We must always

02:04:50.960 conduct ourselves amongst that. And so when my daughters come in, they're like, Hey, so-and-so,

02:04:55.160 you know, said this to me and it, and it bothered me. So I pushed her on the playground. It's like,

02:05:00.440 well, um, is that strong? Like, is that strong? You're pushing a girl that's smaller than you?

02:05:05.160 Nope. Is that being a leader? What if everybody did that? Nope. Is that kind? Nope. Is that respectful?

02:05:10.340 No. So it doesn't fit in the box. So now what decision can you make in that situation that will

02:05:17.180 fit in that box? Well, I can tell her that this is how it made me feel. And then if she does this again,

02:05:21.940 I'm not going to be around her and I'm not going to be her friend and I'm not exactly. So do that,

02:05:27.080 do that and be the bigger person. And also, but, uh, you know, head it straight on. Don't avoid

02:05:31.580 conflict. I want my daughters, like there is no acceptance of avoiding conflict. They need to be

02:05:36.800 very good and very tactical at conflict to where that they're going to win at it.

02:05:41.560 Mm-hmm. Yeah. You can't, you can't be in a safe space, so-called safe space all your life,

02:05:46.400 and then expect to develop coping skills or leadership skills. Did your parents do that

02:05:51.240 with you? Because something happened with you that made you do what you did, you know, and just keep

02:05:56.940 going back, helping people, great risk to your personal safety. You just didn't care. So it seems

02:06:03.020 to me you might've either had a death wish or there was something else in there that made you, you.

02:06:08.120 Yeah. I, um, I'm so fortunate. I grew up around hard men, uh, and foundational structural. My

02:06:15.400 grandmother was, I mean, she, I mean, I grew up around incredible people, you know, and, and back

02:06:20.400 then, like, I'm not saying it's easier to parent back then than it is today, but back then you could

02:06:24.680 control more of what influences your kids, right? Like you could control more of it. You had more of a

02:06:29.860 take on it. You could decide what, what was actually coming in and they were consuming, uh, then you can

02:06:34.920 today, right? Today, you are always fighting for, um, you're always fighting for that influence on

02:06:40.880 your children. And so, um, you know, my dad and my grandfather and my uncles and my cousins and my,

02:06:47.900 you know, my aunts, my grandmother, they were principled people. And I'll tell you something,

02:06:52.800 the, the one thing, my, my uncle, you know, and my dad, and they all mentioned was, you know,

02:07:00.660 you know, and they, well, they made clear, I don't, I don't know how they definitely,

02:07:02.920 it wasn't like a certain talk, but it was, you understand, like there's been a lot of people

02:07:07.340 that's tried to keep that name and that have honored that name before you. And, and you're

02:07:12.820 representing that. And it's about keeping that going forward. And like, they never, my dad never

02:07:17.200 was a willing to accept societal norms. He didn't care what anybody else thought my dad and them were

02:07:22.740 always striving to do what needed to be done and what was right. And that was never conditional upon

02:07:28.160 the opinions of what everybody else thought and what everybody else was doing.

02:07:34.360 Wow. I mean, it explains a lot. I'm thrilled you're getting back into the game, Dakota. There's

02:07:40.300 so many other things you'd be doing. You could be making a bunch of money. You could be taking it

02:07:44.000 easy. You could be getting soft, you know, like that's what happens to most of us after like the

02:07:49.540 peak of our career. And you're getting back into it and serving again. We are so, so lucky to have

02:07:54.860 you. Thank you. Thank you for the service you've already given and are about to give as well.

02:07:58.480 Great to see you.

02:07:59.280 Yes, ma'am.

02:08:00.960 All right. Don't forget, check out Dakota's work on Substack at The Bluff. That's the B-L-U-F.

02:08:07.480 What a man. Thank you guys for watching and we'll be back tomorrow.

02:08:13.920 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - December 17, 2025

Nick Reiner Defense Ahead, and Brown U. Shooter Inaction, with Arthur Aidala and Matt Murphy, and Leadership Traits with Dakota Meyer ｜ Ep. 1215

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