The Megyn Kelly Show - O.J. Simpson Dies, Trump Trial ＂Election Interference,＂ and Men in Women's Spaces, with Viva Frei, Phil Holloway, Allie Beth Stuckey, and Britt Mayer

00:00:00.620 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.180 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.180 Oh, we have a powerful show for you today.

00:00:17.580 There are several stories I'm really looking forward to bringing you.

00:00:20.540 We've got a Kelly's Court coming up in just a minute.

00:00:23.180 And in a way, we begin with some legal news.

00:00:26.200 Breaking news this morning related to someone who became associated with one of the most famous court cases in American history and one of the most infamous crimes ever committed.

00:00:35.760 We received news this morning that O.J. Simpson has died at the age of 76.

00:00:41.380 His family announced the news on Simpson's ActiveX account.

00:00:45.680 It reads in part, on April 10th, our father, Orenthal James Simpson, succumbed to his battle with cancer.

00:00:51.600 He was surrounded by his children and grandchildren during this time of transition.

00:00:55.600 His family asks that you please respect their wishes for privacy and grace.

00:01:00.260 TMZ reporting that O.J. had been battling prostate cancer in recent years.

00:01:04.820 His health recently took a turn for the worse.

00:01:07.000 Back in February, he denied rumors that he was in hospice care.

00:01:11.320 That was the thing about O.J. Simpson.

00:01:33.620 On camera, publicly facing, jolly, good-natured, smiling, easy to like.

00:01:43.720 It's one of the reasons he became such a star and why America fell in love with him when he was rising to prominence.

00:01:51.380 He began winning the Heisman Trophy and breaking all sorts of records at USC, then went on to become a star NFL running back with the Buffalo Bills,

00:02:02.560 and then went on to become a very famous actor in commercials and movies like the Naked Gun movies.

00:02:09.880 But he truly became one of the most famous or infamous people in the world in 1994.

00:02:38.000 Thirty years ago, when he was charged with the murder of his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend, Ronald Goldman, in Los Angeles,

00:02:47.960 in a pair of absolutely gruesome stabbings.

00:02:51.380 The children Nicole and O.J. shared together from their marriage were steps away inside the house

00:02:57.820 and were just eight and five years old at the time of her death.

00:03:00.280 They were asleep in the house while their mother was being murdered outside.

00:03:06.880 The slow-moving car chase with O.J.'s white Bronco that happened soon thereafter as police closed in on him

00:03:14.420 as their lead suspect, who they wanted to arrest, became an iconic moment again in American history,

00:03:21.700 followed by his subsequent arrest.

00:03:23.340 People remember where they were when they watched that.

00:03:26.940 But the trial that would come captivated the nation from months on end,

00:03:32.580 even more so than the slow Bronco,

00:03:35.180 making not only O.J., but so many other characters household names to this day.

00:03:41.060 Marsha Clark, the prosecutor in this case, who is a regular here on The Megyn Kelly Show,

00:03:46.700 in her opening statement, she detailed the brutality of the killings.

00:03:51.300 I warn you, this is graphic.

00:03:54.100 And there he saw a sight that he'll never forget.

00:03:57.940 He saw the body of Nicole Brown lying at the foot of the steps in a pool of blood.

00:04:05.100 Officer Risky went all the way up to the end of the walkway in the bushes

00:04:09.420 to a point where he was able to see at that point that it was not just Nicole, but also Ron.

00:04:16.520 We did warn you, ladies and gentlemen, that this was a case that was going to have photographs

00:04:19.920 that would be very, very hard to look at.

00:04:22.780 We have to show you the evidence, and I apologize for the graphic nature of them,

00:04:27.260 but this is the crime that we're here to examine.

00:04:30.880 No one will argue about what the cause of death was for Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.

00:04:38.280 Indeed, it was stated repeatedly by the prosecution that Nicole Brown Simpson was nearly decapitated,

00:04:47.460 so brutal was the attack that she suffered.

00:04:50.740 O.J.'s lawyer, Johnny Cochran, of course, famously,

00:04:53.500 if it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

00:04:55.240 You know the phrase, thanks to him.

00:04:57.100 Saying that gloves found at the scene could not possibly have been O.J.'s,

00:05:00.500 because when O.J.'s was asked by the prosecution, Chris Darden, Marsha's co-counsel,

00:05:06.020 to try them on, they did not fit, and he made a showing of it.

00:05:11.100 They had been treated, they had been wet, and then they had dried and gotten smaller.

00:05:14.920 We've heard the lawyers talk about it since as a complete blunder by the prosecution.

00:05:21.520 The judge, Lance Ito, another name known coast-to-coast.

00:05:26.420 Witnesses, Cato Kaelin.

00:05:28.240 Still, most Americans who are Gen Xers, at least, know these names.

00:05:32.860 In the end, O.J. was found not guilty in 1995 in the criminal case in a decision

00:05:38.360 that split the country right in two,

00:05:41.380 another moment where most of us remember we were when the verdict came down.

00:05:46.480 Yours truly, I had just begun my career as a lawyer.

00:05:48.960 I watched the trial as a third-year law student, along with everybody else.

00:05:54.420 We were riveted.

00:05:55.600 We would go to our classes in the morning, and then in the afternoon,

00:05:58.380 we'd gather in the student center and watch it on one of those old,

00:06:02.400 fat TVs that we were all watching in 1994 before they all got slim-lined.

00:06:06.940 And then in 1995 came down the verdict, and we all gathered, this time for me,

00:06:11.660 it was in my law firm, all white lawyers, one black receptionist.

00:06:16.800 And they said, not guilty.

00:06:20.080 And the white lawyers stood there, stunned.

00:06:23.680 And our black receptionist, who we all loved, was cheering.

00:06:28.480 And it was just a microcosm of what was happening all across America at that moment.

00:06:33.200 And one of those moments in which people started to get it,

00:06:36.660 that there was a massive distrust of police, especially within the black community,

00:06:40.120 especially in L.A., that the white community wasn't feeling.

00:06:45.960 And that this evidence and this case and these accusations, strong as they were,

00:06:51.080 were being viewed very differently by citizens across this country.

00:06:56.020 O.J. would later be sued by Ron Goldman's family for wrongful death in a civil court

00:07:02.260 where the burden of proof is lower than it is in a criminal court.

00:07:05.740 And indeed, that jury found him responsible, liable, for the double murders in 1997.

00:07:12.700 That was not the end of O.J.'s legal troubles.

00:07:15.460 Many years later, in 2008, he was found guilty of kidnapping and armed robbery

00:07:20.520 related to a sports memorabilia scam that he was running in Las Vegas.

00:07:24.880 The Goldman's were able to garnish his wages forevermore after that verdict,

00:07:28.680 and he was trying to get out of paying, they alleged,

00:07:30.900 and trying to find ways of earning money, potentially off the books.

00:07:35.860 He was sentenced for that crime to 33 years in prison.

00:07:39.720 Many believed the sentence was so hefty, not for that crime, but in payment of an earlier one.

00:07:47.440 He was released in 2017 for good behavior and went on to have a rather large presence on social media,

00:07:56.640 posting videos like the ones I showed you, where he's all smiles, he's in good humor.

00:08:03.200 And that's the thing about O.J. Simpson.

00:08:05.040 His personality was effervescent.

00:08:08.340 There was something likable about the guy and the way he related to us all.

00:08:14.820 But O.J. killer, O.J. Simpson, in my view, was a killer.

00:08:19.780 He was a double murderer, just as that civil jury said.

00:08:23.560 And the fact that he had great lawyers who pointed out some failings of the prosecution and its case,

00:08:30.080 that didn't change that, not for me and not for millions of Americans.

00:08:33.940 I'm sorry, but I don't think you can look back at this man's legacy and remember much more than that.

00:08:39.300 Yeah, he was a great football player.

00:08:40.780 He was a good actor.

00:08:41.980 He had a great personality.

00:08:43.300 And he killed, brutally, two people, including the mother of his very young children.

00:08:47.940 And that is what most of us will remember O.J. Simpson for.

00:08:53.560 And now we turn to Kelly's Court and we'll kick it off there.

00:08:55.620 Joining me now, two of our favorite lawyers, Viva Frye, lawyer and Rumble creator.

00:09:00.240 And Phil Holloway is with us on a Kelly's Court today, legal analyst and host of Inside the Law on YouTube.

00:09:06.040 Viva, Phil, welcome back.

00:09:08.100 What a day.

00:09:08.800 Always happy to be here.

00:09:09.940 Yeah.

00:09:10.720 Yeah, great to see you.

00:09:12.280 It's what he's one of those names.

00:09:13.440 You know, my team forwarded in the news.

00:09:16.060 O.J.'s dead.

00:09:16.700 Everyone knows him just by that, just O.J.

00:09:19.740 And the thing I thought, you guys, was, you know, when Kobe was killed in that helicopter accident,

00:09:27.380 you remember some reporter brought up the sexual assault charges against him in writing up his death.

00:09:35.020 And there was a big debate about whether that was appropriate, especially given the way Kobe had died

00:09:39.020 unexpectedly in a helicopter crash with his young daughter.

00:09:41.880 It was so tragic.

00:09:43.240 He'd gone on to, you know, live a good life after all of that.

00:09:46.700 I just don't see this as anywhere near the same.

00:09:48.900 This guy brutally murdered two people with absolutely no reason other than his rage

00:09:53.160 and his history of domestic violence against his wife, which went ignored because he was a celebrity.

00:09:59.540 And in my own heart, O.J. never asked for forgiveness, and I certainly never gave it.

00:10:04.260 Viva, how do you see it?

00:10:06.120 Well, oddly enough, Megan, Robert Barnes, you know, our Sunday nightly show,

00:10:10.400 he believes O.J. was innocent.

00:10:12.640 I do not believe O.J. was innocent.

00:10:14.580 I still don't believe in reveling in the death of someone and saying,

00:10:17.260 ha, God finally got you.

00:10:18.920 It might be the case.

00:10:19.740 God finally got O.J.

00:10:20.760 And he'll have to repent for whatever he did in this life, wherever he is now.

00:10:25.460 But how do I feel?

00:10:26.200 I remember exactly where I was.

00:10:27.700 I was staying with my aunt and uncle in California.

00:10:29.280 I remember the television showing people cheering, people jeering at the acquittal.

00:10:35.540 I remember the trial.

00:10:36.480 I remember everything about it.

00:10:37.580 It was an iconic moment of my growing up.

00:10:40.100 I think I was 14 or 15, but I was always just shocked by him taking to social media like

00:10:45.080 that was not part of his life.

00:10:46.940 Even if he were innocent, what he did on social media was, you know, rubbing in the nose of

00:10:52.060 the victims what the accusations were against him.

00:10:54.660 I thought it was always a sign of a narcissist of sorts to come out and boast to the world.

00:10:59.520 You all know what I did or you all know what you think I did.

00:11:02.400 And I want to come out and pretend like it never happened, make a social media account

00:11:05.000 and make jokes about it.

00:11:05.880 I never thought that was appropriate, but maybe I'm-

00:11:08.520 He even, Phil, wrote a book called If I Did It, about which there was so much controversy

00:11:13.640 they had to pull the book because people were not ready for that wink and a nod recount by

00:11:20.640 OJ, which Marsha Clark has had a lot of comments on on this show about, you know, suggesting it's

00:11:25.820 it wasn't a true recitation anyway of how he did it.

00:11:30.040 But, you know, this is a guy who got away with double murder and one of the worst one could

00:11:35.060 commit.

00:11:35.540 I mean, the mother of his children with them steps away inside and then went on.

00:11:39.120 I looked just to see at his Twitter account.

00:11:41.180 He's got hundreds of thousands of followers, a lot of love for his tweets and likes.

00:11:45.540 I mean, people somehow went on to be like, oh, OK, and hung their hats on.

00:11:50.740 Well, he was acquitted or maybe not even saying that.

00:11:54.000 What are you what are you feeling about it?

00:11:56.560 Well, a lot of people, Megan, think that it just because a jury says somebody's not guilty,

00:12:01.440 that that's the end of it.

00:12:02.400 And of course, we know that's not true.

00:12:03.760 I'm one of the people that's old enough to remember the OJ prior to the murders.

00:12:07.860 I was sitting with some law school classmates, I think, having beers, watching a basketball

00:12:13.540 tournament, if I'm not mistaken, when that slow speed chase happened.

00:12:17.240 And then, of course, the the trial and the case progressed through the court system.

00:12:21.780 And my professors were using it almost as like a real life case study on what's going

00:12:27.040 on.

00:12:27.260 And then we had, you know, this new evidence.

00:12:29.800 We had DNA that was just coming into sort of the fore of being able to be used in criminal

00:12:36.280 cases.

00:12:36.920 And then fast forward to the verdict.

00:12:38.900 I remember, I think apparently I was one year behind you in law school because in my

00:12:43.800 last year, I was I was working as an intern, actually trying cases at the DA's office in

00:12:49.540 Houston, Texas.

00:12:50.200 And when the verdict was read, we were in the in the judge's chambers, if I'm not mistaken,

00:12:55.100 it was on my birthday.

00:12:56.600 And the the judge made a comment that, look, you know, you never know what a jury is going

00:13:02.060 to do.

00:13:02.400 And she reminded us.

00:13:03.500 She said, look, you've got to remember that the jury is not seeing all of the evidence

00:13:08.600 that those of us who are watching the trial see fast forward to today.

00:13:12.820 And, you know, we've got lots of people who who follow you on YouTube and on social media.

00:13:19.140 Same with Viva and me.

00:13:20.720 And a lot of these people are trial watchers.

00:13:22.960 And they oftentimes know a lot more about the facts of the case than a jury who's actually

00:13:28.860 hearing the case might.

00:13:30.040 And this goes to how important it is who the judge is, because the judge controls what

00:13:36.840 information the jury sees.

00:13:38.860 And remember, there was a lot of this that we know about that we saw that Marcia Clark,

00:13:43.680 I'm sure, will talk to you about.

00:13:44.920 But the jury never saw.

00:13:47.100 And then you add into that is certain things like, you know, whether or not it was the right

00:13:51.740 venue, whether or not it was a jury that was overly sympathetic to the defendant or overly

00:13:57.520 antagonistic, perhaps, to prosecutors and police.

00:14:00.520 And what you have is you have a jury reaching a result that I think most people today who

00:14:06.020 watch the case disagree with.

00:14:08.440 But the lesson is there.

00:14:10.220 Juries do not always get it right.

00:14:12.380 They frequently get it wrong.

00:14:14.360 This is one that they did get wrong.

00:14:16.200 And his legacy, unfortunately for him, is that he is a brutal double murder, regardless of what

00:14:22.940 that jury might say, hmm, that was a case in which now it's, you know, these facts are known.

00:14:29.200 But of course, Johnny Cochran played the race card.

00:14:32.440 And as his co-counsel, Robert Shapiro said, and he played it from the bottom of the deck.

00:14:37.380 But now we know, of course, Shapiro was somebody whose reputation in L.A. amongst the Tony crowd

00:14:42.540 was important to him.

00:14:44.180 He both wanted the fame and glory of representing O.J., but he also wanted to belong and get the

00:14:48.900 best dinner reservations.

00:14:50.560 So why didn't he stop the race card from being played, right?

00:14:54.600 Because Johnny Cochran did play it.

00:14:56.240 And you know what?

00:14:56.900 It worked.

00:14:58.180 It worked.

00:14:58.800 Making who was.

00:14:59.580 Beautifully.

00:15:00.120 Who was.

00:15:00.500 He was in a powder keg of a community that hated the police because of a lot of things

00:15:03.760 that had happened.

00:15:04.300 Rodney King and so on.

00:15:05.240 Keep going with Viva.

00:15:06.640 Who was that cop, the racist cop in it that.

00:15:10.060 Ben Adder or Furman.

00:15:12.060 Oh, yeah.

00:15:12.520 Furman.

00:15:12.820 I remember.

00:15:13.160 But also, wasn't there an issue about them having planted blood on O.J.'s sock in order?

00:15:18.140 Yes.

00:15:18.460 Ben Adder.

00:15:18.920 This is what Dershowitz says all the time about how they had a sock that had O.J.'s

00:15:23.540 blood and Nicole's blood tested.

00:15:26.060 And he, you know, as he points out, that's great evidence for the prosecution.

00:15:29.480 O.J. says he wasn't even there.

00:15:30.800 And now you've got his sock with both blood on it.

00:15:33.860 That's kind of ballgame.

00:15:35.140 But they had it tested and it had a chemical that you would only have gotten in the lab.

00:15:38.780 And so it showed that somebody's blood had been dumped on the sock from a test tube

00:15:43.640 as opposed to the other.

00:15:45.020 So if you've got to frame a guilty man, you still have to hold the system to account.

00:15:49.620 And if you have to frame a guilty man, it's because you're not doing something right.

00:15:53.180 So guilty as he might have been, you know, there could have been some serious problems,

00:15:57.660 which even today we might appreciate.

00:15:59.240 But today the problem is everybody's guilty now anyhow.

00:16:01.440 So criminal defendants stand no chance even when they're innocent.

00:16:03.900 But back in the day, you know, even if you were guilty, if the system is planting evidence,

00:16:08.320 you're going to have to let one guilty person go free to make sure that nobody does that type

00:16:12.340 of chicanery on a going forward basis.

00:16:13.740 Mm hmm.

00:16:14.720 I don't you know, it is it's I understand Alan said many times that people who actually

00:16:20.760 sat and watched the trial every day were not surprised by the verdict and people who just

00:16:25.160 watch the highlights on TV were.

00:16:27.120 And honestly, like this was kind of my experience where I just watch highlights.

00:16:30.160 I was in law school.

00:16:30.780 I was busy.

00:16:31.200 Uh, but my then boyfriend who was out of a job at the moment watched everything.

00:16:37.540 And he we even he and I had this split where he was like, I'm not surprised at all.

00:16:41.840 This was the right result.

00:16:42.940 And I was like, you're an insane lunatic.

00:16:44.660 But separate and apart from whether the jury got that right, there's what you can prove in

00:16:50.180 a court of law and holding a dirty cop accountable.

00:16:52.940 And then there's what you what you believe.

00:16:55.520 And I have zero doubt that OJ Simpson committed those murders.

00:16:58.700 There's there was a history of domestic violence against his wife.

00:17:04.520 That's indisputable.

00:17:06.300 I don't care.

00:17:07.240 And I love Robert Burns.

00:17:08.320 I think he's brilliant.

00:17:09.220 But that's indisputable.

00:17:11.700 He was a wife beater and it's on tape and you could hear her terror.

00:17:14.940 And she had filled out a will at age, you know, 30 something.

00:17:17.960 And she had put pictures of her bruised and bloody face in a safe deposit box.

00:17:22.960 And that's when I look at that picture of this young, beautiful woman with everything in

00:17:27.080 front of her, this young, gorgeous mom of two young kids and this guy with everything,

00:17:32.480 everything.

00:17:33.260 He made the most of what America has to offer.

00:17:35.880 And we rewarded him with love and riches and fame and adoration.

00:17:41.080 And he couldn't control his violent fury enough to stop him from almost slicing the head off

00:17:48.820 of his own children's mother.

00:17:50.420 That's what I will remember OJ Simpson for.

00:17:54.280 And I believe right now he's paying.

00:17:57.700 He's paying for those crimes.

00:17:59.580 OK, sorry.

00:18:00.440 Dark way to begin the show.

00:18:01.460 But the news comes to me as it is.

00:18:03.640 Let's move on to so many legal cases, guys.

00:18:06.080 There's a lot to get into.

00:18:07.740 Let's just spend some time on the Trump cases.

00:18:09.640 We've talked to them at Nauseam.

00:18:10.800 I don't want to spend the whole day on them because we've got some other good and interesting

00:18:14.400 cases.

00:18:14.720 But let's spend a minute on the fact that he's about to sit for a criminal trial on

00:18:20.740 Monday.

00:18:21.700 Jury selection is going to begin in this New York trial court, criminal court on Monday.

00:18:26.280 They are limiting to some extent what they can ask the jurors like they can't ask them

00:18:31.180 who they voted for.

00:18:32.620 And it's kind of interesting.

00:18:35.500 I don't know.

00:18:36.060 You can make a good argument in this case that they should have to say who they voted

00:18:38.900 for, you know, like they should have to tell you if they voted for Trump or Biden.

00:18:41.720 If they voted for, you know, Biden, it's the same.

00:18:46.600 It's the same race happening again, Phil.

00:18:48.900 So you could make a pretty good argument.

00:18:50.880 They've got a bias against Trump and probably we're looking more for people who didn't vote

00:18:54.580 or for Trump voters who could sit favorably.

00:18:57.080 And, you know, I should say, you know, without favor for either side.

00:19:00.940 What do you make of it?

00:19:02.200 Yeah, they ought to know what the political inclinations are for the jurors when you're

00:19:07.440 putting on trial the presumptive nominee for the presidency for the Republican Party.

00:19:13.080 It's just common sense.

00:19:14.920 Why the judge wouldn't allow the parties to get into that is just lunacy.

00:19:19.460 There's no reason that this trial really should be taking place in Manhattan.

00:19:23.440 If it's going to be a trial at all, there needs to be a change of venue to someplace that's

00:19:27.760 a little bit maybe more neutral or someplace that can possibly be fair.

00:19:31.980 There's no way that he can get a fair trial there.

00:19:34.520 But remember, this case should be at most some type of, you know, state misdemeanor bookkeeping

00:19:41.500 violation that had a two-year statute of limitations.

00:19:44.360 But what is Bragg doing?

00:19:46.340 He is basically lying to the public by telling them this is some kind of federal election

00:19:51.060 case that is some kind of, there's no victim here.

00:19:54.000 There's no fraud.

00:19:54.960 At most, it's a bookkeeping error.

00:19:56.900 It's one that federal election officials who actually have the ability to prosecute these

00:20:02.560 things looked at and said, there's no case.

00:20:04.480 We're not going to bring it.

00:20:05.780 But yet we have another instance of lawfare by a partisan, hack, biased local prosecutor

00:20:12.940 in Manhattan who lets everybody go for everything.

00:20:17.440 Apparently, you can smash people over the head in the subways.

00:20:20.640 You can commit armed robberies.

00:20:22.020 You can murder people.

00:20:22.920 You're going to get let go if you just were some kind of a sympathetic, at least to him,

00:20:28.500 defendant.

00:20:29.360 But if you make a bookkeeping error or do something in the way that you keep your books, which

00:20:33.240 is harmless, by the way, there's no victim there.

00:20:36.020 And if Alvin Bragg doesn't like it, he wants to put you on trial and try to throw you in

00:20:41.240 prison on a case that ought to have been barred by the statute of limitations.

00:20:46.100 This is, you know, this is pathetic.

00:20:47.540 This is almost as bad and maybe even worse than what we see here in Atlanta with Fonnie Willis.

00:20:52.800 And and Viva, he's going to have to sit there.

00:20:55.300 Unlike the civil case, in a criminal case, the defendant must be president.

00:20:58.760 So he's losing two months from the campaign trail.

00:21:01.580 Megan, it does not need to be explained how over the top it is.

00:21:04.760 The gag order is election interference in its purest form.

00:21:08.400 But, you know, a bookkeeping mistake or whatever you want to call it.

00:21:11.520 And they'll argue, no, no, it's election interference because he paid off an alleged

00:21:14.720 a porn star for an alleged affair.

00:21:16.980 This is what I believe it was.

00:21:18.160 John Edwards had a very similar thing.

00:21:19.900 And I thought that this was resolved in law.

00:21:22.660 Hillary Clinton finance.

00:21:24.540 And I'm not playing the whataboutism.

00:21:25.740 I'm just saying this is less bad than what has been done in the past.

00:21:29.160 Hillary Clinton financed the steel dossier that was at the root of that bogus Russiagate

00:21:34.500 story.

00:21:35.840 They financed it and then they lied about it.

00:21:37.760 And she gets an eight thousand dollar fine and the DNC gets a hundred and some odd thousand

00:21:41.160 dollar fine for concealing the fact that they financed that opposition research slap

00:21:45.760 on the wrist minimal fine.

00:21:47.100 They turn this into a 37 or however many charge indictment because every month they charge

00:21:52.740 for the the entry in the books, the writing of the check, because this is what his lawyer

00:21:57.360 did at the time, Michael Cohen.

00:21:59.000 I made a tweet when I was eating dinner alone last night and I was laughing to myself.

00:22:02.460 I was like, look at all the players in all of these persecutions.

00:22:05.080 It's a joke.

00:22:05.680 It's a tweet.

00:22:06.460 You got a porn star, a convicted perjurer, a convicted extortionist, corrupt prosecutors.

00:22:12.300 It's like we have a joke of a play.

00:22:16.040 And yet somehow, because people like it politically, they're going along with it.

00:22:19.320 This trial is election interference.

00:22:21.220 I predicted it wasn't going to start on the 15th.

00:22:23.260 That looks like I'm going to be wrong, but I'm still holding my breath.

00:22:25.900 It's wild.

00:22:26.640 It's a joke.

00:22:27.180 They're making mountains out of molehills and it's political persecution and election

00:22:30.700 interference of the highest one.

00:22:33.040 Just to reiterate for our audience, and we've gone over this in the past, but so it was a

00:22:37.080 bookkeeping, you know, misstatement, which was would have, as Phil points out, would

00:22:41.760 have been a misdemeanor on which the statute of limitations was two years, that that case

00:22:45.140 was dead.

00:22:45.600 That claim was over.

00:22:46.440 It was too late to bring it.

00:22:47.540 The way he resurrected it by saying it was in under New York law, if your bookkeeping

00:22:52.160 error is to cover up an underlying felony, then you've committed a felony.

00:22:56.360 And the underlying crime that they claim Trump committed was an illegal campaign donation.

00:23:03.140 Right.

00:23:03.540 An illegal campaign donation to his own to his own campaign, in essence, by paying off Stormy

00:23:08.080 Daniels in order to cover up this affair so that people wouldn't know about it in advance

00:23:13.560 of the 16 election.

00:23:14.720 Well, we've had election officials on this show, a campaign finance officials who have

00:23:20.600 pointed out that in order to qualify as a campaign contribution of any kind or like

00:23:24.600 campaign finance, it has to be a payment that could only ever be used for a campaign

00:23:28.740 donation.

00:23:29.120 It can't be something that has dual purpose.

00:23:31.600 Like I bought a suit and I would both wear it at the debates, but I would also wear it in

00:23:35.560 my real life.

00:23:36.040 No, that's not going to qualify.

00:23:37.600 And it usually comes up because somebody tries to write off the suit purchase as like, oh,

00:23:42.820 that was for my campaign.

00:23:43.680 So I'm just going to use campaign funds to purchase it.

00:23:46.300 And these officials would say, no, no, no, no, no.

00:23:48.240 You can't do that.

00:23:49.220 It has to be solely for the campaign.

00:23:51.880 And and that's the proper legal window through which to adjudge this payment that Trump made

00:23:56.820 to Stormy Daniels through his lawyer, Michael Cohen.

00:23:59.960 Men have been paying off women to shut up from the beginning of time about affairs.

00:24:04.640 All right.

00:24:05.340 You could go back to Alexander Hamilton and that doesn't make them it doesn't make a

00:24:10.080 campaign violation just because it happened to be done right before his election.

00:24:16.000 I'm sure Trump didn't want Stormy Daniels telling this to the world because it's embarrassing

00:24:19.580 to Melania because she was his wife.

00:24:22.240 All of these reasons.

00:24:22.980 Anyway, all of this gets lost and we're going to see the jury next week.

00:24:27.380 Maybe.

00:24:27.860 I mean, I think jury selection is going to take a while.

00:24:29.320 Go ahead, Viva.

00:24:29.760 I can see you want to get in.

00:24:30.560 Well, I mean, yeah, you heard Avenatti gave an interview from prison, not that he should

00:24:35.040 be trusted now, but seems to be suggesting or implying that it was actually perhaps Stormy

00:24:40.200 Daniels shaking down Trump, knowing that election was coming, that she allegedly approached

00:24:44.860 the Trump campaign and not vice versa.

00:24:47.000 So it's unclear as to which way this alleged extortion scheme is even going, set aside

00:24:51.880 the fact that this is going to be a state felony charge over what arguably is a federal

00:24:57.700 election crime.

00:24:58.520 I understand that's only going to come up on appeal, but this is quite clearly the weaponization

00:25:03.200 of the judicial process of the highest order.

00:25:05.700 And just by the way, by the way, the feds declined to bring that underlining charge that

00:25:10.100 the feds looked at the campaign finance allegation and said, there's no, they're there.

00:25:13.460 We're not doing that.

00:25:14.520 So only Alvin Bragg, this political hack, as you point out in New York, saw this and

00:25:19.080 said, I can stitch it together.

00:25:20.140 I can make it happen on the subject of Avenatti.

00:25:22.280 So he goes on with Ari Melber on MSNBC the other night.

00:25:25.400 Avenatti.

00:25:25.880 Oh, my God.

00:25:26.800 I mean, one of my proudest moments as a journalist is when I will tell you, and you can go back

00:25:30.900 and check the record on this.

00:25:31.960 I never fell for his bullshit.

00:25:33.840 I was never enamored by this guy.

00:25:36.000 The one time I had access to him, I grilled him like a Fourth of July hot dog.

00:25:41.140 It was unpleasant for him, and the record will speak for itself.

00:25:44.680 But he's back from prison, where he's been sentenced, I think, 22 years for the multiple

00:25:49.400 frauds he committed against his clients, including Stormy Daniels.

00:25:53.680 He's in jail right now because her publisher gave her an $800,000 book advance, and he stole

00:25:59.080 $300,000 of it and forged her name.

00:26:02.100 I mean, this is a proven liar.

00:26:03.660 But what he had to say about Michael Cohen, who's going to be a star witness against Donald

00:26:09.260 Trump in this case, was pretty interesting coming from Michael Avenatti.

00:26:14.580 Take a listen.

00:26:16.040 Every case needs to have one or two primary witnesses who tell the story.

00:26:21.040 From my perspective, I surmise that the DA is going to use potentially Michael Cohen or

00:26:27.420 Stormy Daniels for that purpose.

00:26:29.080 And I think that has the potential to be a disaster.

00:26:33.900 Michael Cohen is a—and you know, I've never been a fan of Michael for various reasons.

00:26:39.900 You know, he's a serial liar.

00:26:42.000 He's shown himself to be incapable of telling the truth.

00:26:45.560 Okay, so, correct.

00:26:49.540 Pot in the kettle here.

00:26:51.380 True, but right.

00:26:52.860 Hello, hello, pot.

00:26:54.240 Hello, pot.

00:26:54.880 Meat kettle.

00:26:55.720 It's amazing, Phil, to hear.

00:26:57.280 Like, I really object to his serial dishonesty.

00:27:00.800 Yeah, you know, it's weird because I find myself in the surreal position of agreeing with

00:27:06.160 everything that Michael Avenatti just said.

00:27:09.300 It's bizarre.

00:27:10.260 Maybe I'm going to get invited to lunch with Fonnie Willis this week.

00:27:14.300 Things are so strange in my world right now.

00:27:16.440 But look, I mean, you've got a convicted felon, okay, that is going to be the star witness

00:27:22.900 and or perhaps, you know, the porn star who, you know, refuses to pay any kind of judgments

00:27:28.600 against her.

00:27:29.680 And it's just—it's going to become a circus.

00:27:32.860 I mean, anything that involves, you know, Donald Trump has a tendency to draw every camera

00:27:39.040 on the planet and every microphone on the planet.

00:27:42.380 Just, you know, it's there.

00:27:43.780 And it's all going to be superheated.

00:27:46.560 It's like in this giant pressure cooker.

00:27:48.560 And it's going to just be explosive.

00:27:51.400 We're going to be in the situation, unfortunately, of dissecting the truth or the lack of truth

00:27:56.920 of every word that comes out of these witnesses' mouth.

00:27:59.920 We're going to obviously have to dissect the strategy of the prosecutor, who, by the

00:28:05.240 way, is not going to want anybody to tell him because, you know, it's true.

00:28:10.520 Non-disclosure agreements are, in fact, legal.

00:28:13.520 This is part of what people do, whether they're running for president or not.

00:28:17.100 This is part of what people do to settle these kinds of things on a regular basis all across

00:28:23.240 America.

00:28:23.600 So it's not even a crime.

00:28:25.180 And look, you need to look no further than the Fannie Willis-Nathan Wade situation

00:28:30.300 to understand, like, even she did not want her relationship to get out.

00:28:35.740 And only when it was uncovered did she finally have to fess up to it.

00:28:40.640 So people just don't want these things to be on the front pages.

00:28:45.400 And so they do non-disclosure.

00:28:47.080 Even Fannie Willis has done non-disclosure agreements with her staff.

00:28:50.460 This is what people do when they don't want somebody to talk.

00:28:53.040 It's a matter of contract.

00:28:55.140 It's legal.

00:28:55.980 It's legal to hire a lawyer to create these things.

00:28:59.760 And whether or not there's a bookkeeping error that happens to conflict with bookkeeping

00:29:05.300 norms is pretty much irrelevant.

00:29:07.980 But he's trying to bootstrap this misdemeanor and to make it a federal felony prosecuting

00:29:13.160 in Manhattan state court.

00:29:14.860 It's preposterous.

00:29:15.720 And it matters.

00:29:16.480 Here's why it matters.

00:29:17.200 Even though people, I think, generally know this is kind of bullshit, that still you've

00:29:22.320 got one third of Republicans and 50 percent of independents saying it might change their

00:29:28.560 vote if Donald Trump is a convicted felon by the time we get to November.

00:29:31.900 And I realize most of us are like, do they really mean it?

00:29:34.460 This is kind of a BS case.

00:29:35.620 Really didn't mean it.

00:29:36.340 Unlike this, this would make you feel that way.

00:29:38.800 We don't know.

00:29:40.060 What if they do mean it?

00:29:41.460 What if they do mean it?

00:29:42.820 Because Alvin Bragg is likely to get a conviction in this case, and that really could change

00:29:46.980 the course of history, especially to your point, Viva, because he's basically gagged.

00:29:51.760 He's gagged from publicly attacking Michael Cohen, who's got free reign on him, from Stormy

00:29:55.920 Daniels, who's got free reign on him, from the judge's daughter, who's got free reign on

00:30:00.100 him.

00:30:00.780 We could go on.

00:30:01.400 He can attack the judge.

00:30:02.300 He can attack the DA.

00:30:03.660 But this really does look like election interference.

00:30:06.580 And Trump is gagged.

00:30:07.740 And you've got that 50 percent and one third saying convicted felon could change my vote.

00:30:11.640 So, Megan, would they be more likely to vote for him or less likely?

00:30:15.360 I'm not trying to be funny.

00:30:16.060 No, they're saying less.

00:30:17.140 They're saying less.

00:30:17.740 Okay, fine.

00:30:18.220 I mean, two thirds of the Republican Party has said, now we don't care.

00:30:20.920 But he can't win with that.

00:30:22.540 He needs all Republicans, virtually all, and he needs a hefty amount of independence to

00:30:26.740 win this race.

00:30:27.980 I think he's going to win anyway.

00:30:29.480 I think he can win anyway.

00:30:30.360 And when he does win, even if he, let's say, let's say you go through this trial and let's

00:30:33.920 say there's a conviction on some or all, and look, it's in Manhattan.

00:30:37.620 I think the deck is severely stacked against him.

00:30:40.500 So let's assume for the sake of this discussion that he's going to lose and he's going to

00:30:44.260 be convicted of one or more of these counts.

00:30:46.580 But then he wins the election.

00:30:48.200 Okay, what do you do then?

00:30:49.480 Is he going to be in jail or is he going to be out on some kind of a post-trial appeal

00:30:53.360 bond?

00:30:53.880 Because the convictions are not final until the appeals are final.

00:30:58.640 He's not really.

00:30:59.340 He's not going to jail on this one.

00:31:00.940 And the appeal will play out.

00:31:02.760 It'll play out.

00:31:03.340 Go ahead.

00:31:03.740 I just highlight one thing.

00:31:05.220 I think people might have also forgotten about this.

00:31:06.820 So you got your porn star versus your convicted perjurer.

00:31:11.640 Stormy Daniels came out on how many occasions to reaffirm that there was never any relationship?

00:31:16.660 And now the argument is that she lied about lying, that there was no relationship and

00:31:20.560 people forgot about this.

00:31:22.100 And then you get Michael Cohen, who's saying that Trump knew exactly what was going on when

00:31:25.620 Michael Cohen is alleged to have taken this money as a retainer and then, you know, done

00:31:29.440 good lawyering by paying off the porn star.

00:31:31.260 And it's not clear if there was a relationship, other relationship.

00:31:35.240 It's I mean, it is going to be comedic.

00:31:38.700 The only problem is they don't need to show the jury, you know, ask the jury who they're

00:31:42.660 going to vote for.

00:31:43.160 Everybody, you know, statistically, it's like being in D.C., 90 some odd percent.

00:31:46.440 Maybe it's a little less in New York, you know, with certainty.

00:31:48.960 So he's going to get voted for Biden.

00:31:51.300 Well, he'll get convicted, Trump, in as much as Sussman got acquitted in D.C., despite being

00:31:55.880 dead to rights on the evidence.

00:31:57.060 It's all politics.

00:31:57.960 I think everybody's seeing that.

00:31:58.940 And I'll take the other step.

00:32:00.140 I say, if he gets convicted, it's only going to help him.

00:32:02.160 I don't think it's going to hurt him.

00:32:03.100 I agree with Viva.

00:32:03.800 I think it's going to help him.

00:32:04.760 But what I'm saying, guys, is if look, what I'm saying is this is what the polls show us.

00:32:09.200 And I, too, am inclined to say, I'm not sure I believe that.

00:32:14.260 I'm not sure I believe it on any of the cases.

00:32:16.800 But I could see us getting closer when we're talking about the federal prosecutions, not

00:32:20.600 that BS down in Atlanta.

00:32:23.660 But people have to see this as fair.

00:32:25.740 But what if we're wrong?

00:32:26.620 But Phil, what if we're wrong?

00:32:27.900 Phil, what if we're wrong?

00:32:28.940 What if we're wrong?

00:32:30.080 We've written off polls before only to be embarrassed.

00:32:33.080 So what if these people mean what they say?

00:32:35.060 And we get to Election Day, these independents, 50 percent, say, you know what?

00:32:38.400 I couldn't do it.

00:32:39.060 He got it.

00:32:39.460 He's a convicted felon.

00:32:40.620 Then this case will have meant everything.

00:32:43.140 Yeah.

00:32:43.240 Well, if we're wrong, then he's then Alvin Bragg has and this judge who puts the the muzzle on Donald Trump has single handedly changed the course of world history would give us presumably another four more years of open borders and relentless crime on the streets and all the social chaos and the and the division that we're seeing now.

00:33:02.920 And this is why lawfare is morally wrong.

00:33:07.460 I mean, you're shooting fish in a barrel to prosecute Donald Trump in Manhattan.

00:33:12.680 I mean, you cannot provide a worse venue for that man to try to get a fair trial.

00:33:17.620 Now, all the things that Viva points out about the credibility of the witnesses and the cast, those would all be reasonable doubt in a reasonable world, in a reasonable venue.

00:33:26.340 But we don't have a reasonable venue.

00:33:28.260 We are in Manhattan.

00:33:29.440 We're going to have a bunch of lunatics on this jury that hate Donald Trump and that, you know, look, they elected Bragg.

00:33:35.560 They elected Letitia James.

00:33:37.300 These are the people that vote for people who promise to get Trump.

00:33:41.120 We're going to we're going to get Trump if you vote for us.

00:33:43.480 So now they voted for these people.

00:33:46.000 These people are in office.

00:33:47.220 These people are now fulfilling the campaign promises to go out and get Trump.

00:33:51.680 And they're they're they're patronizing actual voters.

00:33:54.800 The promises made promises delivered with the promise to get them.

00:33:58.680 We're getting them.

00:33:59.520 All right.

00:33:59.640 One other question on the Trump immunity case.

00:34:01.900 Well, immunity argument.

00:34:03.440 So he's basically arguing at the federal level in response to the January 6th case.

00:34:11.180 You really can't bring this case at all.

00:34:13.480 Because presidents have immunity from criminal cases.

00:34:17.480 And that applied to me because you're you're coming after me for things I did while I was still in the Oval Office.

00:34:23.760 And this whole case should go away because I have presidential immunity.

00:34:26.880 Well, he brought that argument before Judge Chutkin, who does not like Trump, and she ruled against him.

00:34:32.200 Then Trump appealed it.

00:34:33.600 And the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against him.

00:34:36.000 And then they sought review in the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:34:39.180 And we had a debate on our show with our our legal eagles, Mike Davis and Dave Ehrenberg.

00:34:43.960 And Dave said, Supreme Court's not going to take it.

00:34:46.580 They're just going to let the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals decision stand.

00:34:49.820 Well, he was wrong.

00:34:51.280 SCOTUS took it.

00:34:52.000 And we expect that they're going to have.

00:34:56.780 Well, what's the date of the argument is April 25th.

00:34:59.280 And we just got Jack Smith's brief.

00:35:00.960 And I've just I cannot I cannot let our segment pass without raising this with you.

00:35:06.000 So this is Jack's argument.

00:35:07.860 And I believe Jack's going to win.

00:35:09.100 I think he's going to win the immunity argument.

00:35:10.700 But you've got to hear what he's saying right now.

00:35:14.280 Phil's shaking his head.

00:35:14.980 He doesn't think so.

00:35:15.660 OK, I could be wrong.

00:35:16.420 But listen, here is what Jack Smith argued.

00:35:20.360 First, he says the framers never endorsed criminal immunity for a former president.

00:35:24.780 And you need look no further than Nixon and Watergate to see that.

00:35:27.980 Why did why did Nixon need a pardon from Ford?

00:35:29.860 Both Nixon and Ford both believed he could be charged criminally and that he wasn't immune

00:35:33.780 for presidential behavior or behavior taken while president.

00:35:36.800 But then he says, you've got to stay with me for this.

00:35:42.000 Immunity from.

00:35:44.200 OK, but now hold on.

00:35:45.480 A criminal prosecution must be brought by the executive with strong institutional checks.

00:35:52.720 He's trying to reassure the justices that saying a president can be criminally prosecuted.

00:35:58.460 It won't lead to abuse.

00:35:59.660 Don't worry, because that's what Trump's saying.

00:36:01.480 He's like they could go after Obama for drone strikes.

00:36:03.820 They could go after Clinton for war in the Middle East.

00:36:05.740 You know, they could they could have gone after Bush Roosevelt for the for the internment

00:36:12.660 camps.

00:36:13.400 And this is Smith's response saying, stop it.

00:36:17.100 It's like that's not going to happen.

00:36:18.920 People aren't going to abuse this ruling.

00:36:21.860 And he says a criminal prosecution must be brought by the executive with strong institutional checks

00:36:28.080 to ensure even handed and impartial enforcement of the law.

00:36:32.780 A grand jury must find that an indictment is justified.

00:36:36.580 The government must make its case and meet its burden of proof in a public trial.

00:36:40.840 And the courts enforce due process protections to guard against politically motivated prosecutions.

00:36:48.580 He says we have layered safeguards to prevent the kind of politically motivated and weaponized

00:36:56.240 prosecutions that Trump has complained of.

00:36:59.320 I don't think it's dawning on him, Viva, that this very prosecution undermines every single

00:37:06.120 thing he's saying.

00:37:07.100 He's making he's a hired goon.

00:37:09.300 I mean, it's not like, you know, when it comes to lawyers, you can be smart and dishonest

00:37:14.180 like Avenatti or you can be dumb and dishonest like Michael Cohen.

00:37:17.420 Same thing goes for prosecutors.

00:37:19.240 Alvin Bragg is a is a is an attack dog.

00:37:22.440 He'll do what the powers that be want him to do.

00:37:24.760 Jack Smith will say what needs to be said.

00:37:26.140 The bottom line, people laugh at the argument that Trump could literally get away with murder

00:37:30.940 if he wasn't impeached for it.

00:37:32.760 There's a reason why that exists the way it does.

00:37:35.240 It's so that if you don't get impeached and convicted, they can't go after you afterwards,

00:37:38.920 because otherwise you will be able to blackmail every president going forward that you'll

00:37:42.820 get rogue district attorneys or rogue whatever prosecutors at state levels to go after you

00:37:48.260 after you're out of office and to make sure that you do their bidding when you're in

00:37:51.100 office.

00:37:51.440 So as ridiculous as it sounds, well, if he could kill someone in the office, is that

00:37:54.680 what it takes?

00:37:55.420 If you can't impeach and convict someone, a president who kills the chef because he doesn't

00:37:59.400 like the food, you got bigger problems.

00:38:01.200 But you don't start getting to fabricate crimes for which he was not impeached and convicted.

00:38:06.520 And in Trump's case, for which he was impeached and acquitted.

00:38:09.640 So he knows it's a lie.

00:38:10.860 He'll just say the words that will get him far enough into the process.

00:38:13.980 It's amazing, Phil, to hear him say this, to reassure us that the layered safeguard

00:38:18.240 are going to prevent politically motivated and weaponized prosecutions.

00:38:22.380 Really, Jack?

00:38:23.380 Really?

00:38:24.880 Well, Jack's going to say what Jack feels like he needs to say to maybe bring just enough

00:38:30.660 of the justices over into his camp.

00:38:32.860 And maybe he's going to be able to succeed in hoodwinking maybe a Roberts or somebody like

00:38:38.920 that.

00:38:39.240 But look, here's the thing.

00:38:40.740 You've got a reasonable nexus, OK, to a presidential act.

00:38:47.000 Now, not obviously everything a president does is presidential, but to use the example

00:38:51.740 that others have used, if the president of the United States, whoever he or she might

00:38:55.600 be, launches a drone strike somewhere without congressional approval and kills somebody who

00:39:00.920 they say is a terrorist, no real reasonable person is going to say, well, we're going to

00:39:05.940 prosecute that president for murder, although it would meet the elements of the crime of murder.

00:39:10.680 OK, but nobody's going to prosecute them because there's a reasonable nexus to a presidential

00:39:15.400 action that would be taken.

00:39:17.600 The same goes for the situation with Donald Trump, right?

00:39:21.520 Is it possible that Trump is wearing two hats, one as president and one as candidate, and that

00:39:26.300 the same thing that he's doing maybe furthers both interests?

00:39:30.420 Of course.

00:39:31.220 But I think that the rule has to be if we're going to have presidential immunity in civil

00:39:36.320 cases for that reason, we also have to extend that to criminal cases.

00:39:41.020 Now, obviously, you know, Nixon was pardoned because, you know, we don't want to have to

00:39:45.460 litigate that.

00:39:46.460 And it was an effort by Ford to sort of calm things down politically here, domestically

00:39:51.500 at home.

00:39:52.100 But it doesn't really mean that we can't have something known as presidential criminal

00:39:57.840 immunity, because as Viva points out, we're going to have a situation where if we don't

00:40:03.100 have it moving forward, we're going to have this tit for tat.

00:40:06.140 Every time somebody loses an election or leaves office, they're going to have to live in fear

00:40:11.380 of being prosecuted by the next man or woman coming in who's in charge of the Justice Department.

00:40:17.620 You can be the president and you can take actions that basically fit into two camps that are

00:40:23.740 presidential in nature, that have to do with your official job, and that also coincidentally,

00:40:29.680 you know, benefit you personally or coincide with your personal interests.

00:40:32.860 So that's not a distinction, really, that concerns me.

00:40:35.720 What we need to have, if the test should be, if there's a reasonable nexus to some real

00:40:40.800 presidential action or presidential power, then there should be criminal immunity.

00:40:45.940 And that's it.

00:40:47.400 Okay.

00:40:48.640 I have to take a break, but I just want to tell you this is happening, reaction pouring

00:40:51.800 into the death of O.J. Simpson.

00:40:54.080 Ron Goldman's father to NBC News.

00:40:56.440 The only thing I have to say is it's just further reminder of Ron being gone all these years.

00:41:00.880 It's no great loss to the world.

00:41:03.060 It's just a further reminder of Ron being gone.

00:41:05.960 Marsha Clark gives us this statement first, first before others.

00:41:11.580 I send my condolences to Mr. Simpson's family.

00:41:14.700 She's a class act.

00:41:15.740 Good for her.

00:41:16.860 She's not going to comment beyond that, but of course we are, because we're in the business

00:41:19.920 of making commentary around news events.

00:41:22.060 Viva and Phil, stay with us.

00:41:23.120 There's plenty more to get to.

00:41:24.180 Don't go away.

00:41:24.740 So I take the gun and I start to cock the gun.

00:41:28.700 I'm not going to pull the trigger.

00:41:30.140 I said, do you see that?

00:41:30.960 She said, well, just cheat it down and tilt it down a little bit like that.

00:41:33.420 And I cocked the gun.

00:41:34.260 Can you see that?

00:41:35.160 Can you see that?

00:41:35.940 Can you see that?

00:41:36.880 And she says, and then I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off.

00:41:41.460 I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off.

00:41:43.540 At the moment?

00:41:44.720 That was the moment the gun went off.

00:41:46.160 Yeah, that was the moment the gun went off.

00:41:47.580 It wasn't in the script for the trigger to be pulled.

00:41:51.420 Well, the trigger wasn't pulled.

00:41:52.360 I didn't pull the trigger.

00:41:53.280 So you never pulled the trigger?

00:41:54.600 No, no, no, no, no.

00:41:55.400 I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them, never.

00:41:58.920 Alec Baldwin back in the news.

00:42:00.340 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:42:01.580 Viva Fry and Phil Holloway are with me.

00:42:03.400 So the prosecution filing a brief last Friday in this case, which is set to go to trial on

00:42:09.060 July 10th.

00:42:09.960 We've got a bunch of trials coming our way over the next few months.

00:42:12.660 Hunter Biden, this Trump thing on Monday, and Alec Baldwin.

00:42:16.660 And in it, she raises the interview with Stephanopoulos, saying every time Mr. Baldwin speaks, a different

00:42:25.800 version of events has emerged from his mouth.

00:42:29.720 She's gone on to say that this was a man who had absolutely no control of his own emotions

00:42:35.320 and absolutely no concern for how his conduct affected those around him on the set.

00:42:41.680 She said he demanded the crew and the armorer, who's now been found guilty in that case,

00:42:47.360 work faster and that his relentless rushing of the crew on the movie set routinely compromised

00:42:52.000 safety.

00:42:52.820 Went on to say that after the shooting, Baldwin set about constructing a false narrative that

00:42:59.900 deflected responsibility onto others.

00:43:02.300 He has claimed that he did not pull the trigger of the gun.

00:43:05.500 You heard that there, which the prosecution maintains is absurd on its face.

00:43:12.220 Viva, I know you've been covering this one closely.

00:43:14.320 So do you think this thing is actually going to go to trial on July 10th for involuntary

00:43:19.280 manslaughter?

00:43:20.420 And how are you feeling about the strength of the prosecution's case?

00:43:23.880 Look, my theory of the case is that Alec Baldwin pulled the trigger on purpose because he thought

00:43:28.600 there was only a blank in it.

00:43:29.800 He was pissed off at Helena and he was trying to, you know, let his rage.

00:43:35.700 That's my that's my personal operating theory of the case.

00:43:38.560 One thing is for certain, despite him saying, no, no, no, I would never point the gun at

00:43:42.280 someone and pull the trigger.

00:43:43.200 Well, he pointed the gun at somebody and then his defense was, well, she told me to do it.

00:43:47.560 So he did something that he said he would never do because she told him to do it.

00:43:51.040 Look, my only question is, I think he's obviously guilty of something here.

00:43:55.780 The only question is whether or not the conviction of the armor.

00:43:59.960 Now I forget her name.

00:44:01.560 Hannah Gutierrez, sorry.

00:44:03.840 The only question is whether or not her conviction is going to help or hurt Alec Baldwin.

00:44:08.180 And I've listened to both sides of the argument.

00:44:10.320 I at first thought it would be a foregone conclusion.

00:44:12.120 It would hurt him.

00:44:13.060 I think he's going to get to hang his hat on it now and say, look, she was convicted.

00:44:16.040 I had no reason to believe or no way of knowing that there was a live round in there.

00:44:20.440 And I'm washing my hands of it.

00:44:22.240 I think it's going to help him.

00:44:23.200 But I still think his statements indicate guilt.

00:44:26.820 His overt denial, no, I would never pull the trigger to it.

00:44:30.440 When he admits to having done it, he knows he did something wrong.

00:44:33.180 He's just trying to rationalize it to himself.

00:44:35.080 Phil, the prosecutor argues the combination of Hannah Gutierrez's negligence and inexperience

00:44:40.020 and Alec Baldwin's complete lack of concern for the safety of those around him.

00:44:44.720 That's what proved deadly for Helena Hutchins.

00:44:47.500 She's in no way going to say the armorer's conviction on being completely negligent on that set.

00:44:53.320 Gets him off the hook.

00:44:54.200 He was the executive producer.

00:44:55.480 They gave him the gun.

00:44:56.580 He didn't check it.

00:44:57.660 That seems to be the industry standard.

00:44:59.720 And then, as the prosecutor points out, he effectively blamed Helena Hutchins for her own death by saying,

00:45:06.200 she told me to point it at her.

00:45:07.260 The thing I'd never do.

00:45:08.060 So in a manslaughter case, you've got something known as an intervening causal act.

00:45:14.240 And in this case, he's going to point to Hannah's conviction as being that thing that breaks the chain of causation

00:45:21.260 and therefore leads to his acquittal, he hopes.

00:45:24.320 One thing, though, that he says that has always troubled me, look, triggers don't pull themselves.

00:45:29.320 Now, my background, I came up in law enforcement.

00:45:31.480 I'm from the South.

00:45:32.220 I've been around firearms my entire life, and I know that triggers just don't pull themselves.

00:45:37.720 He knows that, too.

00:45:38.840 Why his lawyers are letting him go out and make these ridiculous statements on television and otherwise is just beyond me.

00:45:46.100 He's going to talk himself into a conviction.

00:45:48.220 But there can be no doubt, once he does get into that courtroom, he's absolutely going to point at Hannah and say,

00:45:55.140 look, she's the reason for this unfortunate death.

00:45:58.860 I was just simply doing other things.

00:46:02.480 I had no reason to believe that there would be a live round in it.

00:46:05.900 By all accounts, there shouldn't have been.

00:46:07.840 However, the thing that's going to hurt him is his statements that don't make any kind of legal sense whatsoever.

00:46:13.020 He never should have given that interview to George Stephanopoulos or gone out there over and over again.

00:46:18.720 So what happened was in March, Baldwin's lawyers requested to dismiss the indictment.

00:46:23.700 And this prosecutor is saying, that's absurd.

00:46:26.440 We've got him.

00:46:26.920 We've got him dead to rights.

00:46:27.940 And she also tells us, I think for the first time, Viva, why she originally she offered him a deal.

00:46:35.980 Remember, she dropped the felony charges against him and offered him a misdemeanor plea deal.

00:46:40.780 And then she withdrew the offer for the plea deal and indicted him on a felony charge.

00:46:46.840 And now she explains why.

00:46:48.380 She says in part that he she found out Baldwin was planning a documentary about Helena Hutchins and was, quote, actively pressuring material witnesses in the case to be interviewed for it.

00:46:58.660 It was at that point, she says, the plea offer was rescinded.

00:47:02.080 The man's the man's a pathological rage monster.

00:47:06.720 I mean, everybody's known that for a long time, but a narcissistic one of that the George Stephanopoulos interview was one thing.

00:47:12.360 But then, you know, the street side interview that he gave where he says, yeah, she was my friend.

00:47:16.380 She was my friend.

00:47:17.540 Well, it turns out not to say that she wasn't his friend, but they had only relatively recently even met.

00:47:22.540 And I think he met her for the first time right before they started shooting the movie.

00:47:26.920 So look, what makes more sense than anything, he pulled the flipping trigger, whether he did it on purpose or by accident.

00:47:33.120 He pulled the trigger.

00:47:34.420 At first, I thought maybe he fanned the the hammer and then released it.

00:47:38.520 But apparently, from what people are telling me, that's not possible on this type of firearm.

00:47:41.980 Bottom line, he made statements that were laughably stupid, implausible, changed his story multiple times when he's going out doing his press tour to garner sympathy for himself in the wake of the death of the woman that died literally at his hands.

00:47:54.540 So, I mean, that's all going to come back to bite him in the ass.

00:47:56.680 And I said it when he was doing it.

00:47:57.700 I mean, the man just can't shut up.

00:47:59.140 He's saying many things which are going to come back to haunt him.

00:48:01.540 The only question is going to be, does like like Phil say, you know, the actus novus, does he get to say this ruptured any causal responsibility link between me and the event?

00:48:10.560 Let's see.

00:48:11.440 All right, stand by.

00:48:11.980 COVID protocol came in.

00:48:12.620 I've got to take a quick break.

00:48:13.980 But we're coming back and we have more to do.

00:48:15.320 Stand by.

00:48:19.020 There is a police-involved shooting in Chicago that's starting to make some major headlines right now.

00:48:25.040 And I'm telling you, I mean, every time we go into an election season, this happens because there are many police-involved shootings.

00:48:33.320 That's America.

00:48:35.220 And that doesn't mean the cops are guilty of anything.

00:48:37.960 It's just America, especially in Chicago.

00:48:41.880 But what happens in an election year, mark my words, is they find a case, they put it on loop, and it becomes an issue in the presidential race.

00:48:51.540 Maybe this will be that case.

00:48:52.520 Maybe it won't.

00:48:53.160 But you tell me.

00:48:54.720 Here are the facts.

00:48:56.060 The man's mother, he was a, I think, high school senior, says that they shot her son, quote, like an animal.

00:49:02.640 Police body cam video just released yesterday shows the police officers firing over and over.

00:49:09.320 96 shots in 41 seconds.

00:49:13.520 According to Chicago's Civilian Office of Police Accountability, better known as COPA,

00:49:19.220 there is a reason that there were so many shots unleashed by the officers, and that is that the officers were shot at first by the suspect.

00:49:30.280 This group, COPA, investigates police shootings for the city.

00:49:33.600 We're going to walk you through the details as they stand right now, and we have the videotape,

00:49:37.140 so I encourage the listening audience to go to youtube.com slash Megan Kelly and watch this with your own eyes.

00:49:41.920 The video matters here.

00:49:44.520 The shooting happened on March 21st, so very recent.

00:49:47.380 It involved 26-year-old Dexter Reed.

00:49:49.620 Okay, so not high school, just out of.

00:49:51.840 According to COPA, police stopped Reed, they said, for not wearing a seatbelt.

00:49:57.720 Reed's car windows were heavily tinted, so it's unclear right now how they might have seen Reed not wearing the seatbelt.

00:50:05.320 Police in unmarked vehicles, some in plain clothes and some wearing vests that read police on them.

00:50:11.920 Approach the vehicle.

00:50:13.320 They ask Reed to roll down his window, driver's side, and unlock the door.

00:50:17.760 You will see him, we're going to show you this tape in a second,

00:50:20.220 roll down his window all the way before beginning to roll it back up.

00:50:24.760 An officer asks, what are you doing?

00:50:27.000 Reed responds, I'm not doing nothing.

00:50:29.080 He then partially rolls the window back up, even as a female officer tells him over and over, roll it down.

00:50:36.680 After that, he does not comply with demands from the officers.

00:50:39.660 At least two officers take out guns and point them at Reed while giving him orders.

00:50:46.080 The female officer walks backward as she says, open the door now.

00:50:51.480 Then shots are heard.

00:50:53.360 The video we're about to play for you runs about 90 seconds long.

00:50:57.560 It's from the view of the female officer's body cam video.

00:51:01.820 I'll describe it for the listening audience when we come back on.

00:51:04.840 Try to listen to what you hear first.

00:51:07.080 We warn you, the video's graphic.

00:51:09.260 Roll the windows down.

00:51:11.300 Roll the window down.

00:51:12.340 Roll the window down.

00:51:14.920 What are you doing?

00:51:17.280 Roll this one down.

00:51:18.360 Roll that one down too.

00:51:20.480 Hey, don't roll the window up.

00:51:22.560 Don't roll the window up.

00:51:23.980 Do not roll the window up.

00:51:26.560 Unlock the doors now.

00:51:28.420 Unlock the doors now.

00:51:31.160 Unlock the doors now.

00:51:32.920 Open the door now.

00:51:35.460 Open the door now.

00:51:37.000 Open the door now.

00:51:41.960 I have 6-4 Davids.

00:51:43.260 Shots fired.

00:51:43.840 Shots fired.

00:51:44.940 Hey!

00:51:46.040 Hey!

00:51:49.560 Shots fired.

00:51:52.400 Fernandez and Avers.

00:51:53.520 Fernandez and Avers.

00:51:54.360 10-1.

00:51:54.900 10-1.

00:51:55.520 Fernandez and Fernandez shock fired.

00:51:57.480 Hey!

00:51:57.840 Let me see your hands, let me see your hands, hands.

00:52:23.000 Okay, so it's hard to see in that video, even when we slowed it down, the initial gunfire

00:52:40.760 and which direction it came from.

00:52:42.240 For the listening audience who see him, he rolled back up that window, not all the way.

00:52:46.320 As they're telling him, roll it down and roll down the other one too, which he did not comply

00:52:49.760 with.

00:52:50.760 One of them telling him unlock the door and the police officers got her hand on the door

00:52:55.740 handle trying to pull it and it remains locked.

00:52:58.320 And you do hear Reed say inside, I'm trying to.

00:53:03.380 But over the course of several seconds, it doesn't happen.

00:53:06.620 And you can hear the police's escalation.

00:53:09.840 You can hear their concern rising as they begin to back away from that door as they no longer

00:53:15.800 can see very well inside the car because the window is gone, not all the way back up, but

00:53:20.020 mostly.

00:53:21.120 And then you hear gunfire again, though, in that video, even when we slowed it down, you

00:53:26.020 cannot see from where the initial gunfire came.

00:53:29.860 COPA, which again, investigates shootings in Chicago, says the video and ballistic evidence

00:53:35.020 point to Reed, the man inside firing first at cops.

00:53:39.120 A body cam video from a different officer shows that at one point, while all the shots

00:53:44.960 were being fired, Reed gets out of his vehicle and goes to the back of his SUV.

00:53:50.680 The video shows him getting shot repeatedly, so we're not going to air it.

00:53:55.400 But we made a series of full screens, meaning pictures, so you can see what the officers saw.

00:54:00.080 In this one, you see Reed crouching down as he goes up the side of the vehicle.

00:54:05.560 This is after the shooting had begun.

00:54:07.820 In this image, he makes it to the back of the vehicle.

00:54:10.500 His arms do not appear up for what it's worth.

00:54:14.120 In this image, you see him fall backward as more gunfire rings out.

00:54:19.440 Eventually, he falls to the ground.

00:54:21.920 At that point, officers point their guns at him and order him not to move as he lies still.

00:54:26.740 One officer remarking that Reed is still breathing while they search him for a gun.

00:54:31.860 He is put in handcuffs.

00:54:33.400 He was transported to a hospital where he later died.

00:54:36.900 A Chicago police officer was shot in the arm.

00:54:41.160 Per COPA, a gun was recovered on the front passenger seat of Reed's car.

00:54:45.680 Chicago Sun-Times, citing a high-ranking law enforcement source, says Reed fired 11 rounds

00:54:50.960 and his gun was empty when it was recovered from inside the vehicle.

00:54:54.720 Several of the police officers seen on the body cam footage are black, as was Mr. Reed,

00:55:01.220 because, of course, the news is already making an issue out of race.

00:55:04.220 And one officer who was seen lying on the grass with this arm injury is also black.

00:55:10.160 Now for how the story is being covered by some media outlets.

00:55:13.660 The Washington Post coverage includes this photo of Reed.

00:55:17.300 Reed is seen smiling during a graduation ceremony.

00:55:19.920 The Associated Press also included that photo in its coverage, which is fine.

00:55:24.760 Those pictures were put out by the family.

00:55:26.600 I'm sure that's how they want him remembered.

00:55:28.900 But the reporting did not include Reed's recent mugshots or even any background on his arrests,

00:55:37.840 which may prove relevant.

00:55:39.260 An outlet called Block Club Chicago, which bills itself as a nonprofit news org dedicated to covering

00:55:45.820 Chicago's diverse neighborhoods, quote unquote, did good reporting on this, citing past info from

00:55:51.540 the Chicago Sun-Times.

00:55:52.960 They report that Reed was arrested twice last year.

00:55:57.380 In April 2023, he was charged with retail theft.

00:56:00.820 The charge was later dropped, according to the Sun-Times.

00:56:02.980 In mid-July, Reed was charged with aggravated, unlawful use of a weapon without a concealed

00:56:09.720 carry card when officers said they found him with a loaded gun at the Windy City smokeout,

00:56:15.480 according to the Sun-Times.

00:56:17.020 He was facing several gun-related charges that were pending at the date of this encounter.

00:56:24.500 Did the officers know anything about these arrests before pulling him over?

00:56:28.600 That remains unclear.

00:56:29.560 Again, police say he was pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt.

00:56:33.600 Officers involved have been placed now on 30-day administrative leave.

00:56:37.580 Their union says these cops responded heroically.

00:56:41.520 The lawyer representing Reed's family is calling for these tactical units to be disbanded because

00:56:46.280 they have been, quote, terrorizing the community.

00:56:50.040 Back with me now, Phil Holloway and Viva Frye.

00:56:53.220 Guys, I want to start with this, which we just got our hands on.

00:56:56.620 It is surveillance video from a neighbor's house, and it gives us a different angle.

00:57:05.580 What you're going to see, I'm just going to describe it because it's hard to see, is the

00:57:10.380 two cops on the left side of the screen are on the driver's side.

00:57:18.040 The two cops on the right side of the screen are on the passenger's side.

00:57:20.620 And it appears that you can see some sort of looks to me like gun smoke come out of that

00:57:28.040 passenger window.

00:57:28.900 You can see it lingering in the air.

00:57:31.240 The cop falls backward onto the grass right next to it, and the car tries to get away.

00:57:39.280 If that's what we think it is, it should be ballgame.

00:57:42.600 That should be the end of it.

00:57:43.460 I mean, it's uncertain these things get played over and over, but this cop looks like he's

00:57:48.860 been shot through the passenger's side window of this car, and it appears to be on tape

00:57:53.020 via a neighbor's surveillance window.

00:57:55.200 We've covered enough of these, though, to know it's going to be analyzed frame by frame

00:57:59.120 by frame.

00:58:00.260 And so far, the family's denying that this is the way it went down, suggesting these cops

00:58:04.960 are to blame.

00:58:06.540 So your first reaction looking at it, Phil, I'll start with you on this one.

00:58:10.700 Yeah, so look, I mean, as a former law enforcement officer, what I see on that video that the most

00:58:15.800 recent one you showed, I see the cop getting shot out the passenger door.

00:58:20.300 It is pretty clear, but the common denominator in all of these cases, Megan, is noncompliance

00:58:26.180 with police commands, right?

00:58:27.640 You can pick apart whether maybe they should have stopped him, maybe they shouldn't have

00:58:32.120 stopped him.

00:58:32.560 But the common denominator is noncompliance with police commands.

00:58:36.600 In the United States, there's a case called Graham v.

00:58:39.240 Connor, and it's sort of the standard that we use to assess whether or not police shootings

00:58:43.900 were reasonable.

00:58:44.740 And it tells us that we are not supposed to use the 2020 hindsight vision to analyze these

00:58:52.440 things.

00:58:52.700 Put yourself in the place of an officer on this chaotic scene where things are dynamic,

00:58:57.740 they're fluid, they're rapidly changing.

00:58:59.280 And then the question is, would a reasonable officer under like or similar circumstances

00:59:04.720 use that degree of force?

00:59:06.340 And so I put myself there in that scene with all that stuff going down, and I see a colleague

00:59:11.140 of mine being shot through the passenger door.

00:59:13.860 Yes, I'm going to return fire.

00:59:15.220 I'm going to return fire until that threat has been terminated and neutralized and is no

00:59:19.620 longer a danger to me, any other officers, or the community.

00:59:22.920 It's a legitimate shooting, and the media may play it otherwise, but absolutely, this was

00:59:28.240 justified 100%.

00:59:29.640 Viva, here's some of the reaction.

00:59:33.480 The family's attorney comes out and says, these plainclothes officers did not announce

00:59:37.340 they were police officers.

00:59:39.160 Okay, footage does show many in plainclothes, but some were wearing vests with the word police

00:59:43.300 written all over them.

00:59:44.980 He called on the Chicago mayor to disband the tactical units that have been terrorizing the

00:59:48.760 communities.

00:59:49.160 He asked, how many more young black and brown men need to die before this city will change?

00:59:56.360 And then the Chicago mayor, this far lefty, Brendan Johnson, weighs in with the following

01:00:03.520 statement, as mayor and as a father raising a family, including two black boys on the west

01:00:09.160 side of Chicago, I am personally devastated to see yet another young black man lose his life

01:00:15.160 during an interaction with the police.

01:00:19.160 If what we've just seen holds up, that is incredibly irresponsible.

01:00:25.300 Megan, I was going to make the sick joke that, you know, just see what LeBron James is tweeting

01:00:29.300 about this, and then you know the opposite is true.

01:00:31.920 You remember that the cop who shot the woman as she was about to stab someone saved a kid's

01:00:36.300 life and got demonized.

01:00:38.360 Yeah, I mean, look, I will always wait a little bit longer before taking an opinion because

01:00:43.020 it could be that the first shots might have been from the cops on one side shooting to the

01:00:47.060 other. And it's just massive confusion. Some people could hypothesize that they planted the

01:00:51.080 gun afterwards to frame the guy. I don't know what, you know, until you know definitively what the

01:00:55.140 facts are, you should, you know, hold off forming an opinion. But if it turns out the person

01:01:00.220 fires first on police officers, okay, 46 shots, 72 shots, however many shots they shot.

01:01:06.520 If somebody opens fire on the cops, A, they've relinquished any expectation to live anymore.

01:01:14.860 And B, you can't have these lefty progressive politicians whipping people up into race baiting

01:01:21.060 frenzies. It's absolutely irresponsible, but it's done on purpose. I'll say in this case,

01:01:25.260 I'll wait a little bit more, see who fired first. I think I know what I think, but they should release

01:01:29.320 the body cam footage sooner than later to at least not allow the media to run with fake narratives

01:01:33.960 for extended periods of time. By the time they release it, everyone's already formed their

01:01:37.020 opinion. Mm hmm. Uh, FYI, we don't see that LeBron has yet tweeted anything on this though.

01:01:43.120 The day is young. Uh, but I will give you a couple of media headlines. Washington post

01:01:47.440 police fire 96 shots in 41 seconds, killing black man during traffic stop. No mention that the cops are

01:01:56.080 black. What is, why is his race in here at all? Okay. AP news, deadly Chicago traffic stop

01:02:03.960 where police fired 96 shots raises serious questions about use of force. It does. What would

01:02:10.020 you do if you got shot at as the cops are alleging here? Um, CBS news, why did the Dexter Reed traffic

01:02:16.220 stop shootout with Chicago police escalate so rapidly? And then there's this block club, Chicago,

01:02:21.200 which we mentioned with a fair headline, Dexter Reed shot cop before officers returned fire 96 times.

01:02:28.980 Watchdog says as video released, um, the media is going to try to spin this fell into a race war

01:02:36.500 without covering the race of the cops. As we saw in that one shooting that involved or beat down that

01:02:41.060 involved five black cops, the media will ignore. They don't care if it's black cops hurting a black

01:02:46.480 man. That's their internalized racism caused by white supremacy. If it's black cops getting shot at by a

01:02:52.840 black man who shot first, the issue is how many times they returned fire. This is how they spin

01:02:58.780 these things to fit a political narrative rather than just searching for real facts.

01:03:03.600 Well, they learned so well from when we, at the beginning of the show, we talked about Johnny

01:03:07.480 Cochran using, uh, the race card, playing it from the bottom of the deck and getting the acquittal

01:03:12.040 in OJ Simpson. Fast forward to 2024 playing of the race card, uh, has become this, the standard and

01:03:19.420 people are getting the media in particular is getting very, very good at it because what they're

01:03:23.580 trying to do is they're trying to further divide the public along racial and socioeconomic lines.

01:03:29.580 And of course it being an election year, uh, makes it only worse, but it's, if you take it and you look

01:03:36.140 at it objectively and fairly, and you put yourself in that scene as an officer on the scene, your life

01:03:43.180 is in danger. Your colleagues' lives are in danger. It doesn't matter what race anybody is. It doesn't

01:03:48.060 matter what gender anybody is. What matters is there's rounds coming at you from inside that

01:03:52.860 vehicle. And you've got to do what you've got to do to stop that because if you don't, and you can

01:03:57.740 worry about the headlines later, but if you don't stop that threat with, whether it's one round or

01:04:02.380 a hundred rounds fired, if you don't stop that threat, other people are going to die and the

01:04:06.220 community is not safe. And so you've got to protect yourself and protect the lives of those around you

01:04:12.060 and worry about, unfortunately, the headlines later.

01:04:14.380 Viva, what do you make of the fact that the cops are saying they pulled this guy over for not wearing

01:04:18.940 a seatbelt and those windows don't like, you could look like they could ever be seen through

01:04:24.060 by a cop in another car, seeing whether somebody is wearing a seatbelt.

01:04:27.900 Well, I mean, conceivably the front window or the windshield is not tinted. So they could

01:04:32.300 have seen him through the windshield. The bottom line is, you know, I never worked in law enforcement.

01:04:36.140 I just have a neurotic mother and a neurotic father who say, do what the cops tell you,

01:04:40.060 even if they're wrong for telling you to do it. And so they pull you over,

01:04:43.260 not wearing a seatbelt. The fact is, you know, it sounds like there was

01:04:47.500 the guy might've had an illegal firearm in the car and is in much more trouble than just not having

01:04:51.980 a seatbelt done up. And it escalates. I mean, it is tragic. The bottom line though, is that you're

01:04:58.300 not going to stop giving people traffic tickets for fear that they might have unlawful firearms in the

01:05:02.700 car and, you know, use them at a traffic stop. That's not how you enforce law and order by letting

01:05:08.860 everyone get away with everything, because it might escalate to something that's going to be,

01:05:11.260 you know, given bad press. So I think they could have seen it through the windshield,

01:05:14.780 but bottom line, you get pulled over. We've raised a culture of not doing what police say to do,

01:05:20.460 because I don't know of my rights, but police abuse can be taken care of in a different context,

01:05:25.980 escalating to this point. You cannot then say, well, they shouldn't have pulled them over in the

01:05:29.980 first place. How about this irresponsible mayor? Shame on him for that statement. Shame on him

01:05:35.180 for pouring gasoline on this budding fire before he knows everything, before we've gotten back

01:05:39.500 anything. We don't know, have they done a drug test on, on read? Do we know, you know, what happened?

01:05:44.620 Obviously he's, um, at the coroner's office and they'll be running all of those tests or was there

01:05:50.700 and they'll have had all the information. All right, before I let you go, we've got to touch on

01:05:54.620 Fannie Willis, Phil, because you're here and you're a Fannie guy. Um, she is asking the appeals

01:06:00.780 court to refuse to consider Trump's appeal on her disqualification. Um, the defense team says

01:06:08.540 you need to take the case because they found if not, uh, an actual impropriety, at least the

01:06:15.180 appearance of impropriety for both of these folks. And this needs to be resolved before we go to trial.

01:06:19.260 So it's up to the appeals court, whether they want to hear this, what are the odds they're going to

01:06:24.620 take it? And what did you make of the arguments? Well, I've said it on my YouTube channel. I've

01:06:28.940 said it on Viva's YouTube channel. And now I'm saying it on your show and your channel.

01:06:32.700 I think the court of appeals is going to take the, the appeal. I think that once they take it,

01:06:38.220 I think they're going to have no choice, but to disqualify Fannie Willis. This is the kind of case

01:06:42.940 where, look, if you don't want to go forward with, you know, the judge is talking about having

01:06:47.100 multiple trials and doing, and of course he's still litigating motions. You don't want to go

01:06:50.860 through this process and have multiple trials and potentially convict people only to find out

01:06:55.980 after the fact through the regular appeal process that the prosecutor on the case wasn't supposed to

01:07:01.100 be there in the first place. There's going to be a panel of judges on the Georgia court of appeals

01:07:06.940 that's going to be assigned this. And it only takes one. One of those individuals has to agree to

01:07:11.900 take the case, the appeal that is pre-trial. And then of course it takes two of the three to,

01:07:18.300 to reverse Judge McAfee. Judge McAfee did, he, he, he basically found everything that the defense

01:07:24.700 wanted him to find. He found the odor of mendacity. He found the, the pall that's draped over it.

01:07:30.540 Uh, the, he found financial irregularities. He found all of the, the, the, the things that go into

01:07:37.260 making up the, the, the, the ingredients for disqualification, if you will. But he didn't

01:07:42.460 quite go as far as he needed to go. The defense has the, uh, they're in the catbird seat. The judge

01:07:48.300 wrote a very good order, notwithstanding his, uh, his mistaken conclusion. I think they're going to

01:07:53.180 get the appeal. I think they're going to get her removed from the case.

01:07:58.060 Do you agree, Viva? Well, I predicted that he, she was going to get removed in the original judgment.

01:08:03.020 Scott McAfee went just up to the edge and then not over. She has to get removed. I mean,

01:08:07.580 the, the judge's order is a blueprint for removal. She's a liar. What she did was legally improper in

01:08:13.420 front of the church. She didn't mention the defendants by name, but she certainly, you know,

01:08:16.700 made it clear she was talking about them. She's made mistake after mistake after mistake. She was

01:08:21.180 dishonest under oath. She was unprofessional on the bench. And yet only one of the two goes,

01:08:26.300 only one of the two bank robbers goes to jail. She had to get disqualified. I predicted it

01:08:30.700 originally. If the court of appeals takes it, which I think they will, and she does get disqualified,

01:08:34.380 I will be vindicated. The odor of mendacity, Megan, that shall live and echo throughout the ages.

01:08:39.980 Odor of mendacity. Yes, it really is. It's like lingering in the room, you know,

01:08:43.420 like a pepe. The odor of a fanny.

01:08:47.420 Yeah. Sorry, that was childish of me. No, that was perfect. What a great way to end.

01:08:51.740 We started on a dark note and we ended on a light, fun one. Viva, Phil, you guys are the best.

01:08:55.900 Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thanks for having us. Great to see you both.

01:09:00.460 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM. It's your home for open,

01:09:06.060 honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political,

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01:09:49.340 and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com slash MK show and get three months free. Offer details apply.

01:09:58.220 Now we turn to some cultural news with two super smart, amazing women. Uh, and who better to talk

01:10:09.340 about the latest, uh, of with men continue to invade women's spaces to some very detrimental

01:10:15.500 consequences. Who, who could ever have predicted this? That's where we're going to kick it off.

01:10:20.620 Joining me now, Rip Mayer, founder of Rooted Wings, and Allie Beth Stuckey, host of Blaze TV's

01:10:26.380 relatable podcast and author of the book. You're not enough. And that's okay. Ladies,

01:10:31.100 welcome back to the show. I'm so happy to have you. Thank you, Megan. Thank you so much.

01:10:35.980 Okay. So there's a couple of related incidents. We are learning more facts about that male basketball

01:10:43.740 player posing as a woman in the Massachusetts high school where three girls got injured when

01:10:50.060 playing against him to the point where they had to call the game. You've seen this video,

01:10:54.300 right? The six foot tall guy, uh, claiming he's a woman, Lazuli Clark, that he was shown in that

01:10:59.740 picture there. So we, we now have a bunch of background on him that we are going to get to.

01:11:05.180 But before I get to this, I want to start with planet fitness. Okay. And just, just like, uh,

01:11:11.740 before we do this, a little, a little throwback on how, you know, back in the day, there were not

01:11:18.700 women's rooms and men's rooms or women's locker rooms and men's locker rooms that came about this,

01:11:24.620 the segregated facilities for a reason. And it was that women were concerned about their safety

01:11:31.660 because over 90 plus percent of all sexual assaults are done by men against women. Um,

01:11:37.820 that's just how it goes, especially when it comes to stranger assaults and women were worried about

01:11:44.220 places in which they change or remove clothing being assaulted in their most private and intimate

01:11:50.300 moments. So anyway, here we are all these years later where they're allowing men into our bathrooms

01:11:56.460 and our locker rooms and our sports and so on without any thought for why these sex segregated

01:12:01.740 facilities and rules came about in the first place. And in sports, there are all sorts of reasons.

01:12:06.460 In addition to the ones I talked about. So planet fitness was in the news recently. Thanks to

01:12:11.020 Libs of tech talk. You guys, I know, saw this story where this guy went in, in Alaska. He had

01:12:16.060 his stubble. He was shaving his beard. There was a minor present. And instead of expelling the guy,

01:12:23.100 planet fitness expelled the customer who took the picture and complained and said,

01:12:28.620 we stand by him because we're for inclusivity. Now flash forward to today, courtesy of WSOC TV in

01:12:37.580 Charlotte. The headline is suspect erect arrested after going into women's locker room charged with

01:12:44.220 indecent exposure. Okay. How did this happen? According to WSOC TV, his name is Christopher

01:12:50.540 Alan Miller. He's 38. He was arrested after he went into the women's locker room on Thursday at the

01:12:55.100 planet fitness there. This is the mugshot. Imagine this guy coming into your women's room. And under these

01:13:00.700 circumstances, listen, um, planet fitness allows members, they report to use the restroom and locker

01:13:07.020 rooms that they identify with as part of their no judgment motto. However, some members say they're

01:13:13.500 worried and believe that Christopher Alan Miller misused the policy. You tell me what you ladies

01:13:18.380 think. They say they were stunned. The women were to see him in the women's locker room. And here's the

01:13:24.540 exchange with nine one one. We don't have a tape of it, but here it is. And what's he wearing? Asked

01:13:30.140 the dispatcher. Nothing, literally nothing says the caller. Okay. So he is completely naked. He is

01:13:37.260 completely naked. Says the caller sources tell channel nine Miller asked a woman to rub lotion and shower

01:13:44.860 together. Question. Is that man still there? Says the dispatcher. Yeah, he's still in the bathroom is the

01:13:51.400 response. It's a man, but he says he identifies as a woman and won't leave the restroom, but he's just

01:13:57.800 walking around showing us his and won't leave. So planet fitness wants us to know that they took

01:14:06.920 immediate action because they have zero tolerance for harassment of any kind. Um, this, they endangered

01:14:16.360 the women in this locker room and they have endangered women coast to coast because we're

01:14:23.580 all subject to this policy. If you go to a planet fitness and beyond, because there are places like

01:14:28.540 many States that by law, you have to let the man saying he identifies as a female into the facility

01:14:35.620 and the consequences, you know, to the women be damned. They're very lucky. This guy did not rape

01:14:41.120 somebody in that locker room with his penis out asking for lotion and a shower together. This is

01:14:48.440 disgusting. Planet fitness. Can't just act like it did something responsible. They are the reason it

01:14:53.340 happened to begin with Brit. I'll start with you. Yeah. Uh, it makes me want to vomit and it's,

01:15:00.620 this is the logical conclusion of all of these demonic ideologies. And we're supposed to act surprised.

01:15:06.820 Now surprise, there's a guy in a woman's locker room with his penis out asking for a rub. Why,

01:15:12.900 why are we supposed to look shocked? This is where it was always headed. You know, 20 years ago,

01:15:20.020 we were concerned if we were at a rest stop and there was a guy in a woman's bathroom, but now that's

01:15:25.060 just, we're supposed to take that as being totally normal. And then on top of that, you have places

01:15:30.120 like planet fitness and YMCA embracing these cult cult ideologies. That's what they are. They're cult

01:15:37.000 ideologies that says that sex can be separated from gender. It's a demonic lie and women will

01:15:42.480 continue to be hurt and degraded over these. It's disgusting. It's amazing, Ali Beth, to see now

01:15:48.120 they're like, Oh, well, you know, the system worked the way it should, you know, with law enforcement

01:15:51.760 came and he's been charged. No, that doesn't save them. No, the system is now women have no recourse.

01:15:59.560 We're not allowed to call or to get someone in trouble. If this man who identifies as a woman

01:16:06.880 comes into the locker room, sexually harasses us and exposes himself to us. Now we get in more

01:16:14.040 trouble for misgendering this individual and the man who exposes himself to a young woman, a minor,

01:16:21.600 like he did in Alaska. And so that is the system that Planet Fitness has put in place. This man was

01:16:28.780 just following their rules. Their rules say that if you state that you are a woman with a penis,

01:16:34.360 that you can go into a locker room and it's all fine. It doesn't matter if there's a six-year-old

01:16:39.800 girl in there. It doesn't matter if other women are changing. This is the system that Planet Fitness

01:16:45.600 has put in place. And so this is the consequences of their actions. They can't save face now.

01:16:50.420 Mm-hmm. Okay. So that brings me to this athlete in Massachusetts. It's a male participating in women's

01:16:59.460 sports. And we all saw the videotape of him taking the ball. He's for the place with a Kip Academy,

01:17:06.880 taking the ball from an opposing player on the girls team. And she falls down to the floor and is

01:17:12.540 writhing in pain. This poor girl, look at him. He uses his male power to make sure he gets that ball.

01:17:18.640 He rests it from her. She can't get up. Look at her. She's unable to stand back up. You can see

01:17:24.920 her grimacing face. She has her hand on her back. She keeps rolling around. She can't move. She can't

01:17:31.120 rise. Two other girls were also hurt the same game and they had to end the game early, the coach for the

01:17:37.760 opposing team with all the hurt girls. Well, guess what? This guy's been up to no good for quite some

01:17:45.640 time. So there have been a couple of reports now, one from Quillette. And then there's another one now

01:17:51.760 in the Daily Mail about this, as the Daily Mail puts it, bearded six foot tall trans athlete who's

01:18:00.260 been going from female sport to female sport and what has reportedly been going on. All right. This is

01:18:07.120 Quillette says this same six foot tall trans student, last name Clark, participated in multiple different

01:18:14.500 female sports, not all at the school, but multiple sports, including rowing, volleyball, and Taekwondo

01:18:19.460 in volleyball. This man as a female was named a Commonwealth Atlantic Atlantic conference,

01:18:28.580 all-star. He scored more quote kills in the volleyball season in 23 to 24, 171. Then the rest of

01:18:37.140 the team combined, he got 171. The whole team combined got 131. He joined a female rowing team

01:18:44.800 at a private club in Massachusetts in 21 after allegedly doing poorly on the male team. This is,

01:18:51.740 you know, one of those memes that goes around online. Women's sports is not a place for failed

01:18:55.480 male athletes, you know, to try to feel good about themselves. The transgender athletes participation

01:19:00.460 allegedly caused issue for the fellow rowers, according to a copy of a letter sent to U.S.

01:19:06.520 rowing. The sports national governing body signed by 15 concerned parents. One of the parents told

01:19:11.880 the magazine, the athlete did not bother to shave his stubble, even continued wearing the male team's

01:19:17.900 uniform. Final straw was an incident in 22 when the rower, the man allegedly walked into the girl's

01:19:23.760 changing room, observed a teammate who was topless and said, Ooh, titties in reference to her breasts.

01:19:31.400 When another rower in the locker room asked if it was the first time this teammate had seen female

01:19:35.560 breasts, he reportedly replied, uh, yeah, with a laugh. And then the KIPP Academy student,

01:19:41.880 this guy was subsequently reported to the U S center for safe sport resulting in his suspension

01:19:47.120 from the rowing team, but joining the basketball team because that incident where he hurt the

01:19:54.920 girls was just recent was apparently fine. Bear with me. I know this is going on, but I just want to

01:20:00.740 get all the facts as alleged by these two news outlets. Daily mail added to the volleyball story

01:20:07.880 or the rowing story, the rowing story. It was a private rowing club in Massachusetts in 21, 22.

01:20:14.840 Um, so he got suspended after that. Ooh, titties comment as he is in the girl's locker room. These poor

01:20:23.060 girls trying to row and just do better in life. Um, this report that was filed claimed that he,

01:20:32.200 they're using she at the daily mail. Uh, we aren't doing that. Of course he caused many issues for the

01:20:38.800 female athletes on the team who then avoided losing the, using the locker room because of this guy,

01:20:44.880 the U S center for safe sport intervened after the incident. And that athlete never rode for the male

01:20:50.640 or female teams. Again, a letter to us rowing from 15 parents. This is expanding now in Quillette's

01:20:55.940 reporting, um, claims the girls were intimidated into silence. Our daughters have stayed quiet because

01:21:03.580 they're afraid. They quote one parent. We tried to speak up with them. We were shut down. Reads the

01:21:08.620 letter. We tried to speak to leaders at all letters, but name calling and the threat of mental health is

01:21:13.200 being used as an emotional blackmail tool to keep us all quiet. Well, women are harmed and devalued.

01:21:18.800 Parents said one girl on every trip had to take one for the team and share a room with this guy

01:21:24.080 on their road trips. The rowing team also required the male athlete to ruin room with them on the

01:21:31.280 trips. The girls spoke to us about quitting rowing because of the intimidation of being forced into a

01:21:36.860 hotel room alone with the male. We have not been able to reach out to this student, Mr. Clark directly,

01:21:44.920 though he's welcome to provide us a statement and, or come on with his side of the story. These are

01:21:51.180 allegations for now as reported by Quillette and the daily mail, but this is an outrage, Ali Beth,

01:21:59.340 that this guy over and over was reportedly sicked on these girls to the point where he's emotionally

01:22:05.820 hurting them and physically hurting them. Yeah. People need to understand something about

01:22:12.120 this so-called gender confusion, gender deception. While there are cases of true gender dysphoria,

01:22:19.920 it is very rare. What we are seeing now, in my opinion, from what I've seen over the past few years

01:22:26.940 is that these are a lot of porn sick young men who have a sexual fetish that involves the humiliation

01:22:33.760 and the degradation and objectification of women. And so in my opinion, this guy, if these allegations are

01:22:40.440 true, he actually gets off on embarrassing these women, walking into a locker room and seeing them

01:22:46.920 naked, making comments like that, that are obviously very belittling, objectifying, and then injuring

01:22:53.260 women on the basketball court. Even a guy, just a, you know, a normal guy who is attracted to women

01:23:01.680 is not doing something like that. He's not excited about the idea of hurting a woman. Your normal

01:23:07.340 teenage guy doesn't want to compete against women on a basketball team because that would be

01:23:12.380 embarrassing and belittling for him. And so this guy has a sexual perversion, in my opinion. And we

01:23:18.400 have been so, especially as women and especially as Christian women, so empathy shamed into giving so

01:23:24.240 much space and so much defense of these men in the name of trying to affirm them and comforting them

01:23:32.820 in their confusion. They're not confused. These guys know that they are guys. They get off on

01:23:38.160 humiliating women and there should be zero empathy for that. I mean, to, to support your opinion,

01:23:43.680 we don't know if this guy's an auto-gynophile, but there is an overwhelming number of them

01:23:48.700 in the trans community who get off, they get sexually pleasured by dressing like women. And they,

01:23:54.380 then they want to go parade themselves around women. And you tell me, Brit, what,

01:23:58.200 what, what kind of, you know, like trans person who's not an auto-gynophile or walks in there and

01:24:04.620 says, Ooh, titties. Again, it's an accusation to which we don't have his response.

01:24:10.780 Yeah. I was thinking on all of this and the, the whole trans ideology is unsustainable because it's

01:24:18.600 not real. It, there is no such thing as trans. There is no such thing as transgender. And I was

01:24:25.760 thinking about how important words are in, in the world and how they, they almost act as the body

01:24:32.760 guards of ideas. And as soon as you start conceding words and adopting a new language, you start

01:24:39.620 adopting and embracing ideology. And it's hard to get out of that. So as I was reading this story,

01:24:45.400 I thought the word trans and the word gender, well, you can't trans sexes. There's no such thing.

01:24:50.940 A man cannot become a woman. So we need to stop using the term trans. And then gender didn't come

01:24:56.880 around until the 1950s with John money, who was this corrupt fraud, perverted doctor, whose

01:25:04.000 experimentation on these two Reimer boys ended up in an abject failure. And his, all his receipts were

01:25:11.100 completely fraudulent and the boys, both of them ended up committing suicide, but he hailed it as a

01:25:16.700 success that you can actually force a child. His word was that children are plastic and you can cause

01:25:23.280 a child who is a boy to become a girl. And he played this out with these two Reimer brothers. And

01:25:30.360 it, these boys ended up, um, committing suicide. Both of them just absolutely tragic, but that's

01:25:35.540 where the word one that they, the one who he tried to say was a girl when he was really a boy,

01:25:41.020 he killed himself with this. Yeah. And you know, it, there's a lot there, but both were,

01:25:46.520 yeah, both were death by suicide. So you look at where the word gender came from. Gender comes from

01:25:52.380 that boys poison. So the word gender comes from John money's perverted, disgusting, debased, chaotic

01:25:58.840 mind. The word trans does, cannot be applied to sexes. You can't trans sexes. So therefore the word

01:26:05.060 transgender is a made up lying word. It does not exist. It has no, there's no reason to use that word

01:26:12.860 in our English language. And as soon as we start using that word and we're applying it to guys like

01:26:18.420 this disgusting student, who's a man playing against girls, we, we seed truth and we're saying,

01:26:26.660 okay, we'll adopt your language. It's a transgender playing on a team. No, it's not.

01:26:30.020 It's a perverted, just like a perverted boy that has something very wrong with him mentally. Who's

01:26:37.980 being allowed in women's spaces. And this ideology is going to run its course. It's not sustainable,

01:26:43.000 but so many girls are going to be hurt mentally and physically because of it. And I think one of

01:26:49.320 the first steps is to stop using made up words. And one of the ones that we have to stop using is

01:26:54.340 transgender. It does not exist. To be clear. That's Brit's opinion that he's mentally unwell,

01:27:00.260 but this is, you know, this we've seen this over and over where someone just declares themselves

01:27:04.680 trans. Like we saw in the planet fitness thing after doing something inappropriate. It's like

01:27:09.780 this guy is naked in a planet fitness gym parading around, asking women to massage him and take a

01:27:16.720 shower with him. And he's as he's getting arrested, I'm trans. It's like these people who are going to

01:27:21.980 the women's prisons who are suddenly trans, but it's not on Brits, Brits comment about language

01:27:28.560 and how it matters. I think we're all going to stand up and applaud talk TVs, Julia Hartley

01:27:35.640 Brewer in a great exchange. She had with a presenter. That's what they call them across the pond.

01:27:44.280 Shivani Dave, who I guess, well, you'll see what Shivani goes by and how Julia Hartley Brewer,

01:27:51.460 who I really would like to know, handles it. Watch this.

01:27:55.400 Good afternoon, Julia. You know my pronouns. Are they, them? How are you doing?

01:27:59.460 Yeah. Thank you for telling me your pronouns. I use correct grammar. So the only thing I would

01:28:06.240 need to refer you to is to your face would be you, but I'm not being rude. You can choose your

01:28:12.800 pronouns. You can choose what you want to call yourself, but you don't have, you don't get to

01:28:16.020 require me to use incorrect grammar and factually incorrect things. You're not a plural. You're a,

01:28:21.340 you're a, you're a one person and you're a, you're a female person. So I will use she and her. Thank

01:28:26.100 you very much. Do what you like, I guess. Well, there you are. You didn't need to tell me then,

01:28:29.960 did you? Maybe I'm just making sure people know in case they're watching and they want to refer to

01:28:35.300 me respectfully. Is it disrespectful for me to use correct factual grammar?

01:28:41.500 It's not incorrect or unfactual grammar to use singular they, them pronouns for an individual.

01:28:47.540 But we're here to talk about the cast review. Yeah, but, but you, but you chose, but you chose

01:28:51.940 to bring it up. You chose to use the incorrect pronouns for me. I chose to use the correct

01:28:57.460 pronouns for a single woman who is appearing on my show. God bless her. Allie Beth, you never see that.

01:29:05.100 Oh my gosh. I love that so much. And I feel like that exchange was a lot more polite probably than

01:29:10.940 how it would have been over here. Even the guest, I think that she actually was a little shocked that

01:29:17.180 the host pushed back on her at all and did so in such like an insistent and polite way. Um,

01:29:23.800 I loved that. I loved that she tried to declare her pronouns right off the bat and the host was just

01:29:29.060 like, nah, I'm not going there. Good for her. Not having it. I know we need a lot more just

01:29:34.840 like it. And, you know, she understood too. The guest was polite, but she's right. The presenter

01:29:39.920 was right that the guest raised it. If it's, if you're not trying to make me say it, then why

01:29:46.100 raise they them when I've introduced you as a she or as a her, she was trying to force it. She was

01:29:52.980 trying to scold her as not appropriate as potentially bigoted. And Brit, the, our hopefully soon to be

01:30:01.660 friend, um, talk to these, Julie Hartley Brewer was onto her. Yeah, I loved her. I saw that

01:30:08.320 yesterday and I'm like, who is this brilliant woman? Such an example of how we can contend for

01:30:14.040 truth without wavering and kind of in what Allie said about how there's this sense of shame. If you

01:30:21.140 stand for truth and for what's right, well, she's leading us in an example of how you don't bend.

01:30:27.520 You don't have to be rude. There was nothing she said that was disrespectful, but she

01:30:31.520 harnessed truth. She harnessed back the words and said, I'm not going to seed language. You are a

01:30:37.580 single female. So that's how I'll refer to you. I think that that's an example for all of us. And

01:30:42.620 I absolutely love her. I hope she comes on the show because she's amazing. I know. I want to know

01:30:47.580 her. I'm definitely going to extend her an invitation. She seems super fun. Okay. So that's, uh,

01:30:51.880 somebody who does what I do as a journalist doing it right. And here's somebody who does what I

01:30:57.000 used to do, which is being a lawyer. And I would submit to my esteemed panel doing it wrong.

01:31:03.140 Like Brit's laughing because she knows where I'm going with this clip. Um, so this is a lawyer who

01:31:08.620 goes by the name Stephanie Muller, who is a man posing as a woman and also as a drag queen. I,

01:31:17.980 she looks like he looks like a drag queen in court. Here's a clip of him talking about his client.

01:31:27.000 My comment about my client. Yeah, I just met her. She's really nice. She's really smart. She sounds

01:31:33.820 like she's got the right idea about things. I really support what she's up to. And I think it's

01:31:38.480 fabulous. Oh my God. For the listening audience, this man, he looks like Kayla Lemieux. It looks like

01:31:46.260 the Canadian shop teacher with enormous fake breasts with protruding nipples, like weirdly

01:31:52.620 protruding nipples and a very low cut top and drag queen makeup on. This is not somebody who's trying

01:31:58.020 to pass. He's trying to like parade. I don't know. I, his sexual fetish in front of all of us and have

01:32:04.860 us participate with him. Allie Beth, you tell me your opinion on what's happening there.

01:32:08.380 A beautiful dainty princess with such a, like a beautiful feminine voice, just gorgeous, gorgeous

01:32:16.080 girl, gorgeous girl. I hate to bring us back to this because it's so disturbing, but again, I see

01:32:21.880 this as the humiliation ritual. And unfortunately I'm going to have to familiarize if the audience

01:32:26.680 doesn't already know with something that goes on in these gender bending dark corners of the internet

01:32:34.440 world. And that is something called a sissy task. These men who get off on becoming women or

01:32:41.900 pretending to be women, and sometimes even pretending to be young girls, um, in these kinds of pornographic

01:32:47.700 chat rooms, they are given tasks or they take on tasks to do out in public, like dress like a

01:32:54.820 ridiculous caricature of a girl or a woman. And they actually are sexually satisfied by performing

01:33:02.580 something that is purposely subjugating and humiliating. I do not know, of course, if that's

01:33:08.680 what this person is doing, but unfortunately, as has been reported many times by Redux, that is very

01:33:14.700 often what is going on here. So this person, when it comes to this and this persona that he's putting

01:33:19.480 on does not deserve our compassion. Of course, he's an individual with all of the rights that are

01:33:24.360 afforded to individuals and the respect that kind of stops there. Um, but as far as his identity,

01:33:30.680 the fact that we are giving it any credence at all, that we are taking it seriously in any sense.

01:33:36.380 I mean, it's personally offensive to me as a woman, but, uh, it is disgusting that we are

01:33:41.800 normalizing, celebrating, glamorizing this kind of sexual perversion. You know, back when I was

01:33:48.040 practicing law, if you went into court, like even in a skirt and a t-shirt, you'd get called out by the

01:33:54.460 judge. There's a high likelihood the judge could say, Ms. Kelly, do you think that's an appropriate

01:33:58.240 out for, for this courtroom? And you'd be embarrassed. There was a certain standard

01:34:02.200 expected, a certain level of decorum, and it wasn't sex-based. If a man did it, he'd get called

01:34:07.740 out to just respect for the court and its system. And you have this person who's clearly, it's very

01:34:13.840 obvious to me. She's working out some sort of a, he sexual fetish on us with these enormous breasts,

01:34:19.800 exposed, exposed that I haven't seen that much breast since Lauren Sanchez last night at the steak

01:34:24.900 dinner for the Japanese prime minister. It was obscene. Uh, you know, you mentioned autogynephilia

01:34:31.620 and I think with him again, everything that I, when I suggest anything, it's thoughts that I have,

01:34:38.480 I can't conclusively say that this guy has autogynephilia, but when you're rocking a plastic

01:34:43.860 bodysuit that clearly has boobs that no woman has ever owned naturally and nipples that are protruding,

01:34:53.140 the size of my pinky first, like Ali said, it is a total mockery of women. And, um, it's that

01:35:00.120 ritual that we've seen in those, you know, the sissy chat rooms and all of that. But on top of that,

01:35:04.820 that autogynephilia comes to mind where it's like, what is he getting off on in not only humiliating,

01:35:10.380 but also having this arousal toward these boobs that he's put on himself, this self arousal. Um,

01:35:17.380 it's disturbing. He looks like a trans sexual. What? I mean, is that even a cross dresser?

01:35:23.340 Cause I'm not going to use trans anymore. He looks like prostitute. Thank you. Like prostitute

01:35:27.280 in a courtroom. It's, um, it's just, it takes our law and turns it into a circus, which I mean,

01:35:33.560 a lot would argue that our law is a circus now. He looks like a drag queen. He calls himself.

01:35:37.680 I am a role model. He says about himself. I'm a role model for the transgendered community.

01:35:42.300 Are you? All right. I don't, well, maybe he is the words. Maybe he is headed y'all. I think we

01:35:49.000 might be headed here. Look at this. This is ridiculous. Why should the court personnel,

01:35:54.000 his opposing counsel, his clients, I mean, who would hire him? The judge and God forbid,

01:36:01.320 a jury have to stare at this and be part of what is more than likely a sexual fetish. I mean,

01:36:07.480 what's happening, right? You have to add, it's like with Leah Thomas, you have to ask yourself,

01:36:10.720 what's happening. Is there an erection down below? Is he actually going to go to the,

01:36:14.480 to the quote ladies room where the jury has to go later and get off because of his big fake titties

01:36:19.900 in front of these innocent jurors who are just getting called down there to do their duty.

01:36:24.000 That's, this is the reality. Then the jury is leave to go for a workout at planet fitness and bam,

01:36:28.880 another penis and a guy asking you to massage it. Then they get home from work and there's their

01:36:33.120 young daughter who just got home from school where she had to play against a six foot guy who's already

01:36:37.660 gotten in trouble for walking in on naked girls and saying, Ooh, titties. What the fuck are we

01:36:42.020 doing to ourselves? I mean, it's a new form of the patriarchy, baby. I guess finally these liberal

01:36:49.340 feminists, I have a friend who says this often that liberal feminists finally found a group of men

01:36:55.020 that they're willing to submit to. And here we are, they got fake boobs, the fake women. Let's talk

01:37:01.240 about Trump and abortion because he released a statement earlier this week on where he stands

01:37:06.940 on quote abortion rights. Then we saw this Arizona court, high court decision saying this law from

01:37:14.160 1864 is resumed that it stands and therefore only abortions for necessary to preserve the life of the

01:37:22.700 mother should be allowed. And then Trump weighed in on that. Here is, um, here he is weighing in on

01:37:29.840 Arizona in Sot 44. Mr. President, did Arizona go too far? Did Arizona go too far? Yeah, they did.

01:37:37.100 And that'll be straightened out. And as you know, it's all about states' rights. That'll be straightened

01:37:41.240 out. And I'm sure that the governor and everybody else are going to bring it back into reason. And

01:37:45.940 that will be taken care of, I think, very quickly. Allie Beth, uh, what do you make of that?

01:37:50.680 Yeah. You know, I wasn't a huge fan of Trump's statements on abortion. I understand from a pragmatic

01:37:55.120 political position, why he kind of has to moderate on it. And, you know, I feel like he probably

01:38:00.860 personally is a moderate on abortion and that is a position to take. However, of course, those of us

01:38:06.820 over here who are, you know, ardent pro-life evangelical Christians, I just don't agree because

01:38:13.420 there is no difference in a baby that's conceived by rape or by incest and a baby that's not. And I'm

01:38:19.640 looking at it from that perspective, from the human rights of the child. And because killing an

01:38:24.300 innocent person is wrong in all cases, then I'm against abortion in all cases. I, again,

01:38:30.000 I get it. And I still think that he is a better alternative to Joe Biden, who says abortion through

01:38:34.580 all nine months, subsidized by the taxpayer with no apology. So if I have to pick one,

01:38:40.180 the choice is obvious, but of course that doesn't reflect my position on abortion. And if he truly

01:38:45.820 means, okay, state's rights, leave it up to state's rights. First, I would say there have been past

01:38:49.900 human rights atrocities that we've justified by state's rights. But if he really means

01:38:54.100 that, then butt out of it, butt out of Arizona, butt out of Alabama, allow their legislature to

01:39:00.300 do what they need to do according to the will of the people that elected them.

01:39:04.700 Hmm. The, you know, I've always said, because I've been, you know, asking presidential candidates

01:39:10.200 questions about abortion for a long time in particular. And I've always said that that position

01:39:15.220 that you just took is really the only truly consistent one on life. Like if you're pro-life,

01:39:21.520 why would you be for rape and incest exceptions? Like if you believe abortion is murder, why would

01:39:28.240 you murder an innocent baby who was conceived through a terrible way, but through no fault of

01:39:33.460 his own? There are a lot of people who have been born to mothers who chose to have the baby anyway.

01:39:38.980 Like you're basically telling them you're, there's something wrong with you. There's something sort of

01:39:42.000 evil. Your existence shouldn't have happened. That makes perfect sense to me.

01:39:46.020 You're giving the death penalty to the baby rather than the rapist.

01:39:49.760 Yeah. Yeah. So I understand that. But Trump was very much like,

01:39:53.640 even in a statement the other day, Britt, which I know you had some criticisms of too. He was like,

01:39:57.780 absolutely. We always have to have a rape and incest, always those exceptions. And kind of was

01:40:03.840 more pragmatic about where the Republican party needs to stand now that Roe has fallen

01:40:08.340 on these. And yes, he's saying states, you know, states, right, states, right. But that gives the

01:40:14.760 green light and you could argue a lack of leadership on, you know, the way forward when it comes to life.

01:40:20.640 Mm hmm. Yeah. I was super disappointed with his, and I made that clear. I was very disappointed with

01:40:26.100 his forward position on his, you know, stance on abortion. And even where I struggle is I get

01:40:35.060 the moderate view. I am passionately for the abolition of slavery nation or for the abolition

01:40:42.320 of abortion nationwide. And that does tie into the abortion. Yeah. Both of them. It does. And it totally

01:40:48.460 ties in. And the 14th amendment is the tie. You cannot say that people are from God, given the

01:40:57.160 inalienable right to life, and it can't be deprived by any state and then say, except for those people.

01:41:02.940 It, the 14th amendment says, no, you can't, you can't say that. And you also can't say that states

01:41:07.560 get to decide which people are worthy for the right to life. This is a federal protected right

01:41:13.940 that comes from God, and it's not given by government. And I wish he would have leaned into

01:41:18.200 that. He didn't. And I get, you know, the political playbook and how you have to kind of try to straddle

01:41:24.400 the fence. I don't like it, but there's a difference between my personal convictions and looking at who we

01:41:31.740 have on the table in front of us, who are the politicians. I was just at a night with RFK

01:41:36.640 junior a few nights ago, and he made it very clear that he is for a woman's right to choose

01:41:43.340 with her doctor, free of any government interference. That's his position. So you have that,

01:41:49.480 you have Biden, Ali just covered Biden's position, which is diabolical. And then you have Trump who,

01:41:56.340 you know, on this, I think it was lame duck. I didn't like it, but I look at it as the dogs we

01:42:02.560 have in the fight and which one are we going to be able to leash and bring under submission.

01:42:07.240 And I think Trump on abortion is the one that we are most able to leash and bring into the

01:42:14.480 conservative aisle. Yeah. The, the, this tweet from Charlie Kirk is interesting.

01:42:19.780 Ali Beth, you know, he's very, very pro-life and he tweets out the following. Uh, I'm 100% pro-life.

01:42:25.920 I've spent countless hours defending the pro-life position on campus and in the media to all my

01:42:30.540 fellow pro-lifers. We must be passionate as well as strategic. And the choice is simple. If you allow

01:42:35.580 November to become a referendum on abortion, evidence suggests our side will lose and more babies

01:42:39.620 will die. If we win in November, we will be positioned to claw back radical pro-abortion

01:42:44.280 policies while we continue to persuade more voters of the horrors of killing babies. Win and we can save

01:42:49.140 lives, lose, and even more will die. What do you make of the, the pragmatic reality that if Trump

01:42:56.720 starts going out and saying, you know, what, what we've been saying here, right, about the life issue,

01:43:03.580 he's almost ensuring a loss and, and a Joe Biden victory who is not going to legislate the way

01:43:10.880 the pro-life side wants. So it's like, you've got to be smart about how to win elections.

01:43:19.120 I, I of course understand that argument. My question is who is going to vote for Trump because of this

01:43:25.140 issue that it's like on the fence. I'm thinking of that. Uh, I don't know, suburban mom who is pro-choice,

01:43:33.420 like, is she really pro-Trump and other, in other ways? Like, is this going to attract that woman?

01:43:39.260 Which specific demographic, which specific voter is he going for here? I just don't believe that there

01:43:46.860 is, uh, maybe, but again, I think that those people, they are probably center and independent

01:43:54.740 in other ways that do not align them with Trump. I just don't think that there are very many voters

01:44:00.400 out there who are thinking, Oh, I would vote for Trump. If only he would moderate on abortion.

01:44:05.920 I just don't believe that. I think those voters are going to vote for RMK. They're going to not

01:44:09.540 vote. They're going to vote for Joe Biden. I don't think they're interested in voting for Trump. I

01:44:13.760 think strategically what's happening is that he's making it more difficult for someone like me

01:44:18.820 who has to make the Christian case to my audience and to other Christian women, um, to vote for him.

01:44:25.500 It makes me feel less enthusiastic. I feel less morally driven to do it because right now I have

01:44:31.360 three pro-choice candidates. And while I totally agree with Britt that this is the best option that

01:44:35.780 we've got the best hope that we have for pro-life policy, if he wins, it still makes me less inclined

01:44:41.700 to be a Trump apologist. And if I feel like that, I bet a bunch of other Christian women do

01:44:47.040 as well. And so I just think that that is probably a loss.

01:44:53.480 Yeah. You said something interesting about RFKJ, Britt. I, uh, every once in a while you get

01:44:58.160 reminded that he's a Democrat. He's not a Republican in Democrat or independent clothing.

01:45:04.060 Yes. I was actually surprised at how forthcoming he was. It was a private event and I, it's actually

01:45:09.600 posted on my rooted period wings on Instagram. You can go check it out because I thought he was going

01:45:14.540 to kind of hedge and hide it a little bit. And he just came out swinging and said, you know,

01:45:19.340 and I, that's exactly what I thought. Wow. There's a Democrat, like your Democrat is showing,

01:45:23.640 you know? Um, I also think it's interesting that we're told, you know, don't make this a,

01:45:29.180 a one issue vote when it comes to November, but that's what Biden's doing. Biden's only drum that he

01:45:36.700 is banging is abortion, abortion, abortion. That's the people who are voting Biden. That's what they're

01:45:43.200 voting Biden in on is that policy. That is his number one, only thing left his last hail Mary

01:45:49.840 desperation. So it's interesting that, you know, I, that all candidates very honestly, and I get so

01:45:56.060 much pushback because I refuse to venerate Trump. I think he has massive chinks in his armor and I

01:46:01.620 still think he is the best dog in the fight, but I think we need to be able to be honest in conversation

01:46:08.100 about the policies that these, um, politicians are upholding and be able to have dialogues like

01:46:15.120 this, because it's honestly the only way that we will be able to demand better from our politicians.

01:46:20.240 If we venerate and whitewash their policies and ideologies, then why would we expect any better

01:46:25.800 when they actually get into office? Good point. You know, I was thinking about something that we had,

01:46:31.580 we discussed in our first hour with our legal panel about how, you know, the New York state criminal

01:46:35.980 trial is going to happen against Trump starting Monday on this hush money payment to Stormy

01:46:40.480 Daniels and the whole bit. And we were talking about how this case, well, well, you know, it's

01:46:46.700 serious. It's a criminal charge, but I think a lot of people sort of recognize it for the political

01:46:50.920 hack job that it is. It really could like, there's a lot hanging in the balance on Monday, beginning

01:46:59.600 Monday. If, if, as I said to the panel, then if 50% of independents mean what they say, and one third of

01:47:06.640 Republicans mean what they say, that they actually really don't think they could pull the lever for a

01:47:11.640 quote, convicted felon. And they didn't make exceptions for the New York trial. Then a conviction

01:47:17.460 in this trumped up BS case could actually potentially ensure a Joe Biden presidency. I know we don't believe

01:47:23.920 that, but it could, if you believe the polling, that's what will happen. And you're talking about,

01:47:29.240 of course, the abortion issue. Yeah. You're going to have way more abortions with a Joe Biden,

01:47:33.660 uh, in the, in the white house than a Trump. Yep. I think. Um, but think about even just the trans

01:47:40.980 issue. Think about right now, what's happened in the past couple of weeks, Riley Gaines and other

01:47:44.080 athletes have filed this lawsuit against the NCAA saying you didn't protect us. You subjected us to

01:47:49.100 people like Leah Thomas, failed male athlete, trying to win in the women's lane,

01:47:52.720 walking around intact, male, naked in the locker room, enjoying it, obviously. And, um,

01:48:00.580 think about what Joe Biden's trying to do to title nine right now. The comment period,

01:48:06.380 it has been extended. He's trying to change title nine right now, which was enacted to protect women,

01:48:11.520 girls in sports. He's trying to change it right now, uh, in ways that will be very detrimental on

01:48:17.700 the trans issue. And, and in every lane, Ali Beth, he opens the door on the trans issue.

01:48:23.060 He refuses to say the word women's rights. Joe Biden doesn't believe in that. He only believes

01:48:28.060 in trans rights. He it's like trans women. Sure. He's into that actual women, not unless he's sniffing

01:48:34.220 their hair. True. You know, so it's like a lot lays, a lot's in the balance beginning on this

01:48:42.540 Monday. Yes. He's willing to talk about women's rights only when it comes to abortion. And that's

01:48:51.060 actually what we see a lot with women's rights organizations. It's like, what's their, what's

01:48:55.700 their number one talking point? What's their number one priority? Is it like fraternity leave?

01:49:00.960 Is it protecting women and women's prisons? Is it women's rights and other arenas, making sure that

01:49:06.620 we feel safe and that we're treated equally? No, their number one issue is to ensure that women

01:49:12.680 can get an abortion through all nine months of pregnancy. Their number two issue is that men

01:49:17.380 who identify as women can go into women's locker rooms and play on women's sports teams. And so the

01:49:24.120 same thing with Joe Biden, of course, as a devout Catholic, he had to comment or the White House had

01:49:29.560 to comment on what the Pope just said about the dangers of gender ideology and the evil of so-called

01:49:35.540 sex switching. And what a Korean Jean-Pierre said, she just had to double down and say, oh, no, he

01:49:40.580 believes in transgender rights. He believes in that transgenderism is great. He believes in protecting

01:49:46.060 trans people. Like this is basically this and abortion, his number one issues. And he is just as

01:49:52.240 radical on these issues as any other far left activists that we've got.

01:49:58.220 You know, I look around at like the state of womankind and I'm worried. I'm worried about our

01:50:04.160 girls, how anxious they are, how depressed they are, not our girls on this set. But, you know, I'm

01:50:10.020 talking about America's girls and how we're at record levels of anxiety and depression and suicidal

01:50:15.800 ideation and the messages that they get every day through Instagram and TikTok and Snapchat and

01:50:23.120 these false images of women, half of whom are walking around literally half naked with these

01:50:28.520 artificial bodies as this impossible beauty standard that these girls never should even

01:50:32.900 seek to attain. Never mind, try to with the surgeries, the enormous this, the tiny that all

01:50:38.080 combined. And we're medicalizing them. And I saw Ali, Beth, you did something on this in your show

01:50:46.180 recently, but we are now we do it with boys, too. But we're basically treating starting to treat these

01:50:53.240 girls as like the hysterics from, you know, like the 40s, where if you had any sort of natural human

01:51:00.860 emotions, you were soon to be shipped off to the asylum. Right. Like the husband would have you

01:51:06.100 shipped off or heavily medicated. And it's like it's happening again. So can you talk about the

01:51:13.300 interview you did on a recent podcast on this, Ali, because I thought this is a good topic. Yeah.

01:51:19.020 Yeah, we've done quite a few episodes on this recently. I've had a psychologist on the show to

01:51:25.460 talk about this, just the medicalizing of normal behavior, especially in children. So with boys,

01:51:32.060 very often, they are given a diagnosis of ADHD. I'm not saying that that's always inaccurate. But

01:51:37.520 sometimes boys are just rambunctious, and they don't want to be seated for eight hours a day. And so you

01:51:41.960 medicalize them to tame them to make sure that they can sit there, basically like zombies. And for young

01:51:47.700 girls, especially teen girls who are hormonal, emotional, and moody, very often they are placed

01:51:53.680 on birth control, which makes it worse. And then they're placed on some kind of SSRI.

01:51:58.640 And rather than just being told, hey, it's normal to be sad, it's normal to be worried. They are told,

01:52:05.440 no, you are depressed. No, you have anxiety. No, you have these kind of pathologies that we have to

01:52:11.260 medicate. And they are not told that this can radically transform your personality. This can change

01:52:17.540 your ability to pay attention to feel joy, to feel real sadness, it just kind of numbs you.

01:52:25.780 And I'm not saying that medication should be condemned in all cases. I'm not saying that at

01:52:31.360 all. But we are no longer teaching our young people, especially our young girls, who you're

01:52:36.340 right, Megan, have so much on their plate right now, and are facing so much rather than dealing

01:52:41.580 with those root causes. We're saying, hey, here, take Lexapro, take this Prozac, take this

01:52:47.420 Wellbutrin, and numb all of the pain, don't think about it. And it'll just be fine. Then they're waking up

01:52:53.700 at 25, remembering that they don't remember the last 12 years of their life. And all of these

01:52:58.460 chickens have not yet come home to roost yet. And I am scared of what the future will look like when

01:53:03.260 they do. I will say a word in defense of birth control. I was on it for basically my entire

01:53:09.600 reproductive years, which I'm still technically in, but it's not happening. I have no fallopian

01:53:15.500 tubes, so for one thing. Also, I'm now as old as Methuselah. In any event, I liked being on the

01:53:22.040 birth control. I was not one of those people who had any emotional response to it. And I loved it

01:53:27.240 for, among other reasons, you can have safe sex and you can control your family planning, but it

01:53:31.600 also really helped with my skin. And I had acne, I mean, pretty much through my 40s, and it really

01:53:37.120 helped me. So I know there's some pushback in some corners on birth control, but I am a big fan.

01:53:42.460 But to the point of like the SSRIs, Britt, and how overprescribed they are now, especially to these

01:53:47.820 young girls, I am with Allie Beth. I have real concerns about medicalizing emotions and also

01:53:56.900 wallowing in any sadness or trauma. You know, the older I get, the more I really feel like

01:54:06.560 compartmentalization works. The solution is not to get mired in the bad things that have happened to you.

01:54:14.340 As much as you can kind of go Presbyterian and shove it down.

01:54:21.360 Sorry, Doug, he's Presbyterian. Honestly, the better that I really think that works. And the

01:54:27.360 more you lean into part me and that happened to the worse off you are. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we live in a

01:54:35.260 culture of quick fix and honestly, anything can be fixed under a knife. You want to change your gender?

01:54:42.860 Here's a knife. You want to look 20 and you're 45. Here's a knife. You, you know, so we're in this

01:54:48.540 hypermedicalized society that's also driven by really not addressing root causes. It's just a

01:54:55.280 series of band-aids. I actually, I, so you don't know a whole lot about my childhood, not to get into

01:55:00.080 it, but it was very, very dark. And I went through a lot of like extremely challenging things and the

01:55:06.340 Lord redeemed so much of that. But when I was dealing with a lot of the trauma from my childhood,

01:55:13.620 I was getting ready to get married. And I started seeing one of the best therapists in San Diego

01:55:18.460 to help me walk through it. And all the trauma started to come back up, which is a common phenomenon

01:55:24.100 if you haven't dealt with it, cause you've shoved it down and it's repressed. So everything started

01:55:28.040 coming back up. And the first thing was throwing pills at every manifestation of the trauma. And I

01:55:34.420 ended up on so many medications and, um, you know, it, it numbed me. I was on so many mental and

01:55:43.280 physical numbers that I just felt like I was in this haze and I was doing a lot of acting in Hollywood

01:55:48.520 at the time. And I just remember like popping pills just to get through auditions and then having

01:55:53.540 panic attacks set in. And then there was a pill for that. You know, there was always a fixed pill,

01:55:57.460 but it was never getting to the real route. And even with this amazing therapist, it was just

01:56:01.880 toss pills at me. Um, so then when I got married and wanted to, we wanted to start having, you know,

01:56:08.600 having a family, I was like, I have to get off all this medication. And it was probably one of the

01:56:15.420 most difficult and challenging seasons of my life that no one prepared me for was to get off all the

01:56:21.100 medication. It's the physical taxation on your body that that takes and the mental turmoil to get

01:56:28.920 off of all these controlling drugs that have numbed you for so long. So for all these girls who are

01:56:36.160 just being thrown medicine right now, it's like, that's not a long-term game plan. And eventually

01:56:41.880 they're going to hit a point where they're going to want to get off of that. And then the trauma all

01:56:46.120 floods back. If you haven't actually dealt with what's at the bottom, you know, it's still there

01:56:51.680 when you get off all the drugs. So I just think that our society in general, it it's too much of a

01:56:59.760 push to medicalize as a fix it when instead of actually addressing, um, the root and also looking

01:57:07.180 at, look, this was the past. The past was this big on a whiteboard, but you've got all of this,

01:57:12.660 all of this, that the Lord can redeem and that can be for the good. And that was for me, the biggest

01:57:17.920 shift was seeing that and seeing how much potential I still had to live life free of the

01:57:22.920 path, work through it. But the, the medication was just a very temporary bandaid that actually caused

01:57:29.780 more harm than good. I, I completely understand that. I, I, for me, I did not have dramatic trauma

01:57:37.840 in my childhood. I mean, my dad died at a very young age and so that was traumatic, but I didn't have,

01:57:42.460 you know, abuse or anything like that. Thank God. And, but I will say that my therapist who I love,

01:57:48.240 and I had another great one when I was getting divorced from my first husband, they were very,

01:57:54.000 and have been very like present focused. Neither one was interested in discuss, discussing past

01:57:58.580 trauma. It was, it's very much like, how are you feeling now? And how are you dealing with those

01:58:03.300 feelings? And here are some other alternatives for how to deal with how you're feeling. And that for me

01:58:09.160 has worked wonderfully. It doesn't require the dredging up of any painful experience. It's just

01:58:13.920 new tools for managing emotions, which is really important. But I know like a lot of my friends now,

01:58:19.980 you know, we're, we're all getting older. And so my kids are a little on the younger side, but a lot

01:58:23.940 of my friends have kids who are a little older who now are getting the SSRIs pushed on them. I mean,

01:58:29.720 everywhere. It's like, you go to the guidance counselor. They want to put you on one of these

01:58:33.040 things. And you talked with somebody, Allie Beth, um, she won chopped. She won chopped a couple of

01:58:40.480 years ago, Brooke, a chef. We pulled a soundbite. There's a little bit of it. And then, um, you react

01:58:46.240 on the backside. It's not 47. I had spent the better part of my twenties in New York city. I was

01:58:51.880 objectively miserable. I was, um, really depressed. I was having a lot of suicidal ideation. I had no

01:58:58.420 emotion to anything. And it just kind of dawned on me that I had spent my entire adult life

01:59:06.460 on powerful psychiatric drugs and that if they were working, I wouldn't be thinking about these

01:59:12.220 things. And on top of that, it just bothered me that I clearly was so deeply unhappy in my life.

01:59:20.060 And I had made the decision that led me to that point through the lens of, of a powerful

01:59:25.860 psychoactive agent. So I kind of started to wonder if I would have made the same decisions had I

01:59:30.860 not been medicated. Thank you so much for sharing part of Brooke's story. I mean, she is an amazing

01:59:38.540 person, but a very, very strong person. And once part of the conversation, we were talking about

01:59:44.400 how, um, when she decided to get off the drugs, cold Turkey, which she's not saying that she recommends

01:59:51.440 talk to your doctor, but she decided, okay, I just don't want to do this anymore. She got

01:59:55.840 off those drugs. And she had all of these just awful, awful thoughts, thoughts of suicide, thoughts

02:00:02.660 of, uh, violence just out of her mind. Um, and then, but she also had these small windows

02:00:10.480 of feeling joy. And so it was that those small windows of feeling joy for really the first time

02:00:17.940 in her life. And she got off those medications that made her hold on and reminded her, okay,

02:00:24.100 I'm not actually crazy. If I can hold on to these small feelings of joy that I've never

02:00:30.920 had while on these medications, then maybe I can hold out. And eventually those feelings

02:00:36.200 of joy and the feelings of normalcy, they got longer and longer to where she finally was

02:00:41.520 able to live a normally and mentally stable or normal and mentally stable life. Um, and she

02:00:48.720 realized that her childhood was really taken from her maybe with good intentions. Um, her

02:00:54.360 dad died. And so she had to deal with all of that. Uh, but she really didn't get to experience

02:00:59.820 the normal range of human emotions because her sadness was called depression and anxiety.

02:01:04.820 And she was medicated into numbness for about 20 years of her life.

02:01:08.800 Oh, we have sadness. It's, it's human. And sometimes it lasts for a few months. A few

02:01:14.940 years is rough. That's a different story, but you can get help in, in handling sadness. That's

02:01:21.880 non pill related. You can do things to make sure you're sleeping better, which is so critical. You

02:01:27.720 can exercise. That's a natural way of improving mood and endorphins. You know, you can work out,

02:01:32.560 you can improve your sleep. You can improve your nutrition. You can make my, my therapist always

02:01:37.500 says three social a week. That's what he wants me to do. Three social. Um, so I'm like, does this

02:01:42.200 count? This feels social. I don't know. Anyway, but that's good, right? Just to get out there a

02:01:46.640 little bit, put yourself out there. I'm not saying this is a prescription for everybody. And I know

02:01:50.960 that SSRs have helped a lot of people, but we're just, it's too knee jerk now. It's too quick and it's

02:01:56.180 becoming too common. You women are delightful. Will you please come back soon? I loved this time with you.

02:02:04.140 I'm with Allie. So wonderful. Such a, it just feels like we're out to lunch, having a good

02:02:08.400 conversation. I mean, this is right here. I got both of you. Yes. It's, it's happening. Yeah,

02:02:14.020 totally. Tell your therapist. This counts for two. Thank you. I will. Right. This is definitely

02:02:18.260 double. And you're right. It does feel good. All the best. See you soon. All right. And thanks to

02:02:22.200 all of you for joining me today. We're going to be back tomorrow with Adam Carolla. Looking forward

02:02:27.160 to that. We'll see you then. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 11, 2024

O.J. Simpson Dies, Trump Trial ＂Election Interference,＂ and Men in Women's Spaces, with Viva Frei, Phil Holloway, Allie Beth Stuckey, and Britt Mayer ｜ Ep. 764

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