The Megyn Kelly Show - Piers Morgan on Cancel Culture, Trump, and The War On Free Speech

00:00:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.460 Hey, everyone. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:14.920 Today on the show, Piers Morgan. He is an author. He is a TV presenter.

00:00:21.300 That's what they call them over there across the pond.

00:00:24.420 Co-host of ITV's Good Morning Britain, which is hilarious.

00:00:27.880 He and his co-host have a lot of fun banter.

00:00:30.100 He's a columnist for the Daily Mail and I think editor at large, and he's done basically everything.

00:00:34.820 I mean, he's America's Got Talent co-host. Britain's Got Talent co-host.

00:00:38.460 He used to have a show on CNN. You know who the guy is.

00:00:40.960 The way I know him is as a provocateur and a truth teller.

00:00:45.300 And it's not that I agree with him on everything, but I agree with him on enough that I admire his unafraid nature and approach to news and information.

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00:02:30.240 And now, Piers.

00:02:35.040 Piers Morgan, thank you for being here.

00:02:37.520 My pleasure.

00:02:38.260 Really.

00:02:38.800 Okay.

00:02:39.080 So now it's a real thrill for me because the audience has heard me say before, only half

00:02:43.380 joking, that I want to be you when I grow up.

00:02:46.220 And I realize you're only six years older than I am.

00:02:48.460 But I just, I love, you don't give a flying fig.

00:02:52.420 You will say how you feel and you really don't care if anyone gets offended.

00:02:57.720 So can we start with, how did you get to be like that?

00:03:03.120 Well, I come from a pretty combative Irish family.

00:03:06.660 I'm one of the least opinionated members of that family.

00:03:10.540 So when we get together, all hell tends to break loose.

00:03:13.580 But the one rule we always have is however volatile the debate gets, at the end of it,

00:03:19.880 we shake hands and go down the pub and have a pint together.

00:03:22.940 And one of the main themes of my book is what happened to that?

00:03:27.300 What happened to that sense of what a democracy is about?

00:03:30.620 What happened to respecting each other's right to have different opinions, wanting to embrace

00:03:36.080 and debate conflicting opinions, and at the end of it, remain friends and go off and have

00:03:41.080 a drink together?

00:03:41.720 I think that's been lost in the whirlwind of social media in particular.

00:03:46.900 And we're now very tribal.

00:03:47.940 And it doesn't allow for that kind of nuanced debate anymore.

00:03:51.640 Yep.

00:03:52.280 No, you're totally right.

00:03:53.200 Because you've written a book.

00:03:54.240 It's called Wake Up!

00:03:55.740 Why the Liberal War on Free Speech is Even More Dangerous Than COVID-19.

00:03:59.920 And you have been very outspoken about the dangers of COVID-19.

00:04:03.100 So for you to say that is meaningful.

00:04:05.740 I mean, we can get into your diagnosis on how you think we got that way.

00:04:09.660 I mean, I think you and I seem to be in agreement on one thing, which is all those years we spent

00:04:14.660 looking at these morons on college campuses, like, you know, toughen up, buttercup.

00:04:20.060 Those people are now starting to run the world.

00:04:22.880 And sadly, they're winning.

00:04:25.920 Yeah, well, that's the problem is that unfortunately, this sort of small, very vocal minority of woke

00:04:32.140 activists have spread their tentacles into all sorts of places of influence, including

00:04:37.520 college campuses.

00:04:38.460 And what is happening is that universities and corporations and television networks and

00:04:47.420 media companies and newspapers, they're all bowing to this mob.

00:04:51.340 And they constantly chuck people on the bonfire or no platform people or, you know, do all

00:04:57.100 the things that go with woke and cancel culture.

00:05:00.680 And they're doing it from a position of, in my opinion, just a pathetic weakness, because

00:05:05.700 really what they should be doing is standing up and fighting.

00:05:09.980 And I don't mean physically fighting.

00:05:11.940 I mean, verbally and from a corporate point of view, saying that we're not going to have

00:05:17.020 our entire world dictated to by a small, very noisy minority of people who have a very narrow

00:05:24.580 prism of what is acceptable in life.

00:05:28.380 Well, it used to be that these people would complain.

00:05:30.700 It would be kind of an irritation.

00:05:32.280 I would mock them, I mean, for being so weak and thin skinned.

00:05:36.560 And but it was slightly amusing.

00:05:38.660 Now, now that you've had all of media, all of Hollywood, all of corporate America bending

00:05:45.260 the knee to this nonsense, it's gotten scary because people are getting fired.

00:05:49.420 And I still think that your attitude and my attitude represent far more of, you know, here

00:05:54.860 in the States, you know, we call it flyover country.

00:05:56.900 I mean, real regular Americans, with the exception of like the established, quote, left feel as

00:06:02.720 you and I do, but they they're afraid and they don't they're starting to wonder because

00:06:07.160 all of the incoming information from their news media, from their newspaper, from their

00:06:13.180 their television shows, from their bosses is saying something very different.

00:06:17.940 No, there's no question.

00:06:20.080 And it's got dangerous.

00:06:21.940 You know, people are getting cancelled if they retweet somebody, if the woke crowd decide

00:06:28.260 that person cannot be retweeted.

00:06:30.620 You know, the best example of this recently was the the J.K.

00:06:34.500 Rowling debate, where J.K.

00:06:36.140 Rowling has raised a big red flag over how far she believes transgender rights are now superseding

00:06:44.440 women's rights.

00:06:45.920 And she's been quite vocal about this.

00:06:48.460 My view is I don't agree with everything she said, but I think a lot of it makes sense

00:06:52.220 that we should have a very rational debate about transgender rights.

00:06:57.240 And at what point, for example, in women's sport, do we say that there's a new inequality,

00:07:02.500 a new unfairness if you allow people born to male biological bodies to compete with women

00:07:08.160 born to female biological bodies?

00:07:09.760 It doesn't make you transphobic to think that that's a concern when you see all the women's

00:07:15.080 records being destroyed by people born to physically more powerful, faster, stronger bodies.

00:07:22.920 So these things should be able to be discussed.

00:07:25.520 But when J.K.

00:07:26.200 Rowling tried to discuss them, she didn't just get cancelled in the sense of everyone wanting

00:07:32.060 to get rid of her.

00:07:33.620 But she literally became a hashtag on Twitter.

00:07:36.660 The hashtag was R.I.P.

00:07:38.540 J.K.

00:07:38.960 Rowling.

00:07:39.760 In other words, the woke crowd who professed to be so kind and caring and tolerant and wanting

00:07:46.440 fairness and equality, actually wanted J.K.

00:07:49.020 Rowling dead because she wanted to preserve women's rights.

00:07:53.720 And I find that a pretty terrifying escalation in this woke nonsense.

00:07:59.600 And also, I asked one question.

00:08:02.020 Where do they think this is going to get them?

00:08:04.100 Do they really think they're going to achieve what they want to achieve by destroying everything

00:08:08.620 that most people in America, in Britain, in most democratic countries hold dear, which is

00:08:15.620 the democratic right to freedom of speech, the right to freedom of expression, the right

00:08:19.880 to have an opinion?

00:08:21.100 I mean, I think a lot of them are confused.

00:08:23.900 I've argued with some, including Chris Cuomo on your old network, CNN, who once tweeted out that he thought hate speech was banned by the Constitution.

00:08:34.340 Well, hello, it isn't that one of the great things about living in a free society is you can engage in hate speech and somebody may not like it.

00:08:42.560 And they're allowed to respond with their argument in response to what they or someone might consider hate speech.

00:08:47.920 But we're at this place now where I think one of the polls showed on college campuses, the vast majority want a constitutional amendment to ban hate speech.

00:08:57.340 They want it to be not covered by the First Amendment, which is so absurd because, of course, the First Amendment is necessary not to protect speech you like, but speech you do not like.

00:09:08.720 No one's trying to shut down speech everyone loves.

00:09:10.880 Well, that's the whole point, isn't it, is that I regularly, I follow lots of people on Twitter whose opinions I don't agree with, precisely so I hear something outside of my own kind of echo chamber.

00:09:23.540 And I urge everybody else to do the same.

00:09:25.520 When you only follow people on social media that agree with you, you start to develop this very tribal, entrenched view of things, which doesn't allow for any nuance or any movement.

00:09:35.980 But it gets really insidious when, I mean, universities, you know, colleges around America, we're having the same problem in this country.

00:09:43.960 When they decide that even someone like Bill Maher is unacceptable and has to be no platform because he's held a shining light to wokery and all things around it.

00:09:55.640 When that starts happening, you really think, well, hang on, who are you going to allow to speak and what kind of education are kids going to be getting in these universities?

00:10:07.060 What are they going to be taught if they find everything offensive, if they're triggered by everything and they can't even have a speaker like Bill Maher, who's a liberal, come and talk to them, let alone a bona fide conservative?

00:10:19.000 I don't know where this takes education.

00:10:22.320 I don't know where it takes students.

00:10:23.820 I don't know where it takes democracy.

00:10:25.980 But I do know it's taking it, as I say in the book, into a dangerous place where coronavirus has been appalling.

00:10:32.620 But it will be historically pandemics tend to blow out in about two years.

00:10:37.320 And then where are we left as a society?

00:10:39.940 Because if we don't wake up, which is the title of my book, if we don't wake up to this problem,

00:10:44.440 I think the attack on free speech over time after all this will end up being far more dangerous than any virus.

00:10:53.720 It's already gotten to the point of absurdity.

00:10:56.980 There was one college professor here who got in trouble for, in one of his books or writings, using the term urban.

00:11:03.780 Somehow urban is now just code for racism.

00:11:06.800 That's you being derogatory toward black people.

00:11:09.580 And there was a push to fire him because he had used that term among other benign terms.

00:11:15.880 And then there was that incident at Medill, which is Northwestern's journalism school.

00:11:20.780 You know, one of the most respected journalism schools in the country where I think they were protesting because Jeff Sessions,

00:11:28.080 the now fired attorney general here, was booted and he was going to go speak on campus.

00:11:34.160 And so the students decided he was terrible because of his immigration policies and he could not speak.

00:11:39.860 You know, this is, keep in mind, a few years ago at Columbia in New York City, they had Ahmadinejad come and speak.

00:11:45.340 Okay, but Jeff Sessions, that's a bridge too far.

00:11:48.740 So everyone was protesting.

00:11:50.800 Long and the short of it is, the school newspaper goes out and takes pictures of some of the protesters on campus, writes an article.

00:11:55.940 There were protests.

00:11:57.300 Well, the little snowflakes got all upset because their picture was in the paper.

00:12:00.340 They didn't consent to it.

00:12:01.920 Well, you were on a quad.

00:12:03.020 You were in a public place.

00:12:04.500 You were trying to be heard on an issue that you claim was near and dear to your heart, which is Jeff Sessions and his appearance on your campus.

00:12:10.580 So grow up.

00:12:11.960 And instead of the journalism school and the newspaper turning around to them and saying, grow up, they apologized.

00:12:21.500 They apologized to these little cupcakes, leading to all these alumni, thankfully, at Northwestern to turn around and say, what the hell are you doing?

00:12:29.800 What kind of message is this?

00:12:31.220 But they're being coddled, Piers, at every turn.

00:12:35.040 And sane people are turning around saying, wait, am I the nuts one?

00:12:40.580 Am I the one who, like, what the hell is going on?

00:12:43.740 Well, there's also a rank hypocrisy to all this.

00:12:47.080 And I write about what happened to you in the book, where I watched it from afar here in London with utter horror.

00:12:53.840 You made a perfectly reasonable observation that, you know, if you go back 20, 30 years, then the sort of stuff that went on on Halloween was deemed completely acceptable.

00:13:04.800 And you asked the question, what changed?

00:13:06.520 How has this changed?

00:13:07.420 It was a really interesting debate.

00:13:09.080 How, you know, any form of Halloween costume now is deemed to be cultural inappropriate and so on and so on.

00:13:14.740 It's an interesting debate to have.

00:13:16.400 But you got hounded.

00:13:17.740 You got vilified.

00:13:18.960 You got shamed.

00:13:19.900 And you got effectively bounced out of your job for expressing, in my view, completely uncontentious opinion.

00:13:26.760 But what was most interesting to me was it surrounded this issue of blackface.

00:13:32.040 And you lost your job, despite making a very fulsome apology to anybody who was offended.

00:13:39.340 And yet what happened then?

00:13:40.660 We then saw the prime minister of Canada, one of the most woke liberal people in the world, Dustin Trudeau, who, it turns out, has repeatedly blackened up his own face.

00:13:51.300 I think there were three different occasions when it happened.

00:13:53.740 And so many times he said he couldn't remember the number.

00:13:56.600 And on one occasion, he's nearly 30.

00:13:58.420 He's like he's a teacher.

00:14:00.120 He's 30.

00:14:00.820 He's not a kid.

00:14:01.960 And yet when it happened to him, he wasn't hounded out of his job.

00:14:06.740 In fact, he got reelected.

00:14:08.660 I didn't see any famous liberals leading the charge for him to lose his job, for him to be destroyed, for him to have his opinion vilified.

00:14:17.960 And yet there was somebody actually blacking up his face multiple times.

00:14:22.700 You were far removed from that.

00:14:25.640 You were just talking about a cultural phenomenon which has changed dramatically in America in 20, 30 years, which is a subject perfectly worthy of discussion.

00:14:34.700 And I cite that as an example of this ludicrous double standard where actually if they were to hold up Trudeau to the same standard they held you, there should be the same outrage and the same outcome.

00:14:46.340 But there isn't.

00:14:46.840 Well, and can you imagine if they started, if they started, first of all, I should thank you.

00:14:52.780 I've thanked you privately, but thank you for defending me because when that whole thing happened, there were very few people actually willing to defend me, which is one of the things that led to my confusion.

00:15:02.520 It was like, wait, I don't understand exactly what I've said that's wrong.

00:15:06.020 I know what I said is true that 30 years ago this used to not provoke the same reaction as it does today.

00:15:10.940 And so you almost feel like you're being gaslit when you don't get defended, you know, like, well, maybe, maybe I'm nuts.

00:15:17.720 Maybe I didn't see this in White Christmas and these other movies.

00:15:21.980 People were scared.

00:15:22.740 But you did.

00:15:23.580 You stood up.

00:15:24.400 Yeah.

00:15:24.820 Back to the Piers Morgan does not give a flying fig what you think of him.

00:15:29.180 He was one of the few voices.

00:15:30.440 Ben Shapiro was another who stood up and said, this is bullshit.

00:15:33.360 You know, let's get real.

00:15:34.820 But can I say something about what you wrote in the book?

00:15:36.600 Because it did jump out at me and I wanted to talk to you about it for a minute because I know you've had, you've been fired from jobs.

00:15:42.340 You've had highs and lows in your career.

00:15:44.740 Yeah.

00:15:45.100 And you said something I have in front of me.

00:15:47.820 You're pointing out the hypocrisy between the way they treated me and Justin Trudeau, who actually has worn black face unlike me.

00:15:54.160 You said the way Megan was destroyed and Trudeau saved epitomizes the rank hypocrisy and deceit that lies at the heart of cancel culture.

00:16:04.000 And I read that and I was like, OK, I'm stuck on destroyed.

00:16:09.960 Was I?

00:16:12.360 Like, what do I think?

00:16:13.760 What does what does that mean to me?

00:16:16.160 And in the end, I think a phase of my career was indeed destroyed as a result of NBC's reaction to that event.

00:16:23.960 But the more I, the more distance between me and the day and the more I think about it, Piers, I feel like it needed to happen.

00:16:35.180 You know, destruction in the moment can lead to new growth.

00:16:39.100 Right.

00:16:39.580 It can lead to something better and more evolved, more informed.

00:16:44.640 And it's certainly in my case, happier.

00:16:47.020 And if I could go back and save myself, you know, sort of erase that conversation and just go on and fulfill the term of my contract at NBC.

00:16:59.000 I don't I don't know that I would do it because the biggest reaction I had when I was let out of that building was relief.

00:17:07.420 Yeah.

00:17:07.920 You know, and now I'm now I'm in a great place.

00:17:10.400 It was a very tough.

00:17:12.120 I would say the first year and a half was maybe a year was really tough.

00:17:17.260 And I wound up flourishing.

00:17:19.040 And I know you did, too.

00:17:20.140 But before we move on to the flourishing, can we just talk about because I do think there is real pain in having something awful happen to you, whether it's through cancel culture or in your case, just losing a job that, you know, you thought you thought you loved and needed.

00:17:35.640 And I think too often we brush by it too fast.

00:17:40.160 And you talk very openly in the book about how brutal your dismissal was from The Daily Mirror, which you worked at, I think, for 10 years in Great Britain.

00:17:49.940 And how you were in all the newspapers and you were being ridiculed.

00:17:55.320 Can you just talk about what that was like?

00:17:58.960 Well, yeah, I mean, I was the editor of The Daily Mirror, one of the biggest selling newspapers in Britain.

00:18:04.420 And I had been for 10 years.

00:18:06.680 I'd been running the entire paper, the newsroom, for many hundreds of journalists.

00:18:12.060 And we'd won many awards.

00:18:13.880 We were very successful.

00:18:15.220 And I was having a very good time.

00:18:18.040 I was only in my late 30s.

00:18:19.620 I got the job when I was 30.

00:18:21.540 And I got fired over pictures that we ran.

00:18:26.480 It was just after the Abu Ghraib scandal broke in America, where pictures of American troops abusing Iraqis came out, which shocked America and shocked everybody, really.

00:18:37.260 And about five or six days later, we were offered, or had been offered before, and these were then pushed again to us, pictures of British troops apparently doing a similar kind of thing.

00:18:50.620 And it was alleged that these pictures were faked.

00:18:54.500 We never really got to the bottom of it.

00:18:56.060 But what we do know is that the people that we accused, some of them went to prison for the very crimes that we were accusing them of.

00:19:03.700 So I've always had my doubt about exactly what these pictures were or whether they were genuine or not.

00:19:09.220 But the truth is they depicted a wider truth.

00:19:11.460 But putting all that to one side, I got literally frog-marched into the street by a security guy after 10 years of valued, loyal service to the company, to the paper.

00:19:23.660 Never got a chance to say goodbye.

00:19:24.960 Didn't even get a chance to pick my jacket up or my phone.

00:19:28.360 And as I drove away, I remember thinking, a bit like you did, I think, almost a sense of relief as well, that this was over, this particular chapter.

00:19:36.860 It all turned very acrimonious for several weeks.

00:19:39.460 The pressure was enormous.

00:19:41.900 And ultimately, I thought, OK, well, if I'm going to go, actually, I don't mind going on this.

00:19:47.340 And maybe you felt the same way.

00:19:48.540 I don't know.

00:19:48.840 We can come to that.

00:19:49.640 But I felt, you know what, I believe in this story.

00:19:53.420 I believe we'll be vindicated over time about the Iraq War, which we had aggressively opposed as a newspaper.

00:19:59.580 And indeed, I believe we were.

00:20:01.380 I thought we'd be vindicated over the abuse that was going on, which we were.

00:20:05.020 It was proven later it had been happening, regardless of the rest of the pictures.

00:20:09.460 But I remember driving back to my apartment on the river in West London and amassing a few good, loyal friends.

00:20:16.680 And we got some Chinese food in, I remember, and we got some nice bottles of French wine.

00:20:21.360 And we got steadily drunk.

00:20:22.780 And I watched my own obituary on the television.

00:20:24.900 It was a lead item on the news for about three days.

00:20:27.980 It was a huge story, a huge scandal.

00:20:29.280 And it was a kind of weird, out-of-body experience.

00:20:32.960 But I do remember this flooding sense of relief.

00:20:36.600 And I remember thinking, if I'm going to go, I don't mind going over this, because I think history will prove me right, which it did.

00:20:43.940 And I also felt I learned so much from the whole experience.

00:20:48.860 You can get very cosseted in these jobs, as you know.

00:20:51.320 You get paid a huge amount of money.

00:20:53.540 You get loads of people working for you.

00:20:56.260 Your word is the bond, is the order.

00:20:59.920 Out it goes.

00:21:00.560 Things get done.

00:21:01.840 Suddenly, I was put back into normal life without any support group.

00:21:06.420 I didn't even know, for example, that stamps have become self-adhesive.

00:21:10.680 Postage stamps, mail stamps.

00:21:12.320 I tried to lick them, and it stuck to my tongue.

00:21:15.000 I was like, what's this?

00:21:15.880 I rang my old assistant.

00:21:17.440 I said, what's this weird thing with the stamps?

00:21:19.640 And she burst out laughing.

00:21:20.720 And she went, you haven't sent a letter in 10 years.

00:21:23.600 You don't know that postage stamps are now self-adhesive.

00:21:27.840 And then I discovered the joy of turning my phone off at night and getting a good night's sleep,

00:21:32.880 not worrying about some bomb going off somewhere and being woken at 2 a.m. to run this daily paper machine.

00:21:39.120 And then the joy of walking to my local supermarket on a Wednesday afternoon and buying a pork pie

00:21:45.240 and then just calmly walking back and eating it.

00:21:48.300 And I got back with friends I hadn't seen for a long time.

00:21:51.360 I spent much more time with family.

00:21:53.260 My kids were young.

00:21:54.260 In particular, I spent time with them.

00:21:56.440 And the whole experience became extraordinarily cathartic.

00:22:00.440 And I remember thinking then, wow, what an amazing thing.

00:22:03.860 This job that I thought I'd do until I was 60 is all over at 38.

00:22:08.240 And yet it's going to open up a whole new world, which is exactly what it did.

00:22:12.680 I mean, I then go and judge, you know, piano playing pigs on America's Got Talent for six years.

00:22:17.720 I do Celebrity Apprentice and win, chosen as a winner by the now president of the United States.

00:22:22.860 I replaced Larry King at CNN for nearly four years.

00:22:26.540 And then I come back and do breakfast TV in the UK, which I never thought I'd do.

00:22:30.780 None of that would have happened if I hadn't gone through what appeared to be at the time,

00:22:35.340 this harrowing, life-changing, career-ending ordeal turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me.

00:22:42.960 We'll have more with Piers in a minute.

00:22:44.540 We're going to talk to him about participation trophies and parents' completely misguided effort

00:22:49.720 to, quote, protect their children from failure and losing.

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00:23:55.700 That's code radio at HomeTitleLock.com.

00:23:59.420 And now back to peers.

00:24:00.720 I knew that what I had said was factually correct, if not expressed in the perfect way, but I

00:24:10.460 didn't feel liberated initially.

00:24:13.220 I was relieved to be out of there, but I was upset because, of course, everyone in the country

00:24:18.260 here, not everyone, but the press was calling me a racist.

00:24:22.020 And it's like, OK, I don't want that on every newspaper in the country.

00:24:26.980 And I don't want my kids to see that I know it isn't true.

00:24:29.860 And I know that people who know me and see me clearly know it isn't true.

00:24:34.420 But I do think it for me, it made me feel acutely one of the dangers of this crazy cancel

00:24:39.880 culture, which is it involves real pain for the people who are in the crosshairs.

00:24:45.380 I mean, real pain.

00:24:46.920 I know now, you know, you and I can say, oh, whatever people are going to say what they're

00:24:51.280 going to say.

00:24:51.600 And I've gotten to that place, but it doesn't erase the actual tears and heartache in the

00:24:58.040 moment.

00:24:59.140 And I'll tell you, for me, one of the one of the moments I will never forget in the wake

00:25:02.920 of that whole thing was I was in my apartment for 10 days where I did not leave my apartment.

00:25:08.440 All these photographers were outside, same as you were experiencing.

00:25:11.620 And my husband just he did kid duty in the morning and took them to the schools.

00:25:15.720 And finally, after 10 days, I'm like, I'm going outside.

00:25:18.500 I'm taking my own children to school and, you know, we're in New York, so it's all on

00:25:23.380 foot and you try to get a taxi and whatever.

00:25:25.440 But so I walked outside.

00:25:27.640 I get with my sons to their school and I'm walking up the stairs and a black man who I

00:25:34.700 didn't know, obviously, one of the dads was walking out of the school, having just dropped

00:25:39.300 off, dropped off his son.

00:25:41.100 And he looked at me and I looked at him and, you know, everyone in the country, all these

00:25:46.260 newspapers have been saying, I'm a racist.

00:25:47.600 I'm a racist.

00:25:48.140 I'm a racist.

00:25:48.660 I was like, oh, my God, Jesus Christ.

00:25:50.580 Right.

00:25:50.840 So he looks at me and I look at him and I didn't know what he was going to communicate,

00:25:55.340 but it was clear of something.

00:25:57.620 And he pointed his finger at me and he goes, you.

00:26:01.260 And I was like, oh, God, he goes, are wonderful.

00:26:06.000 I could still cry.

00:26:07.380 You know, I could.

00:26:08.000 It was like he had seen he he saw.

00:26:11.700 This is definitely not a conservative guy.

00:26:14.000 He just it was just like a beacon of hope because I was like, you know what?

00:26:18.240 People can see that this is bullshit, but it takes a while.

00:26:22.600 At least it did for me to get past the actual event.

00:26:25.280 I defended you because I used to watch you at Fox all the time and I knew you weren't

00:26:29.340 a racist, you know, and I knew where you came from on these issues and I knew how you like

00:26:33.780 to just explore and debate stuff that was sort of culturally interesting.

00:26:37.740 And the changing nature of Halloween, to me, is a really interesting cultural phenomenon

00:26:43.980 where even five years ago, pretty much you could wear anything to a Halloween night because

00:26:50.360 anything went and now almost everything is unacceptable, inappropriate.

00:26:55.860 And then, of course, there was almost a comical irony, of course, of Lester Holt, NBC's number

00:27:02.160 one news guy, who it turned out a white faced.

00:27:04.960 And you're like, well, what is the rule then?

00:27:07.480 So if you have a black presenter who's white faced, nobody cares.

00:27:13.220 But if a white presenter like you talks about the changing nature of Halloween in relation

00:27:19.800 to black facing, then you have to go.

00:27:22.780 And again, I just simply say, is there not a double standard there?

00:27:26.160 What is the standard?

00:27:27.940 How how much does it pertain to someone's politics or perceived political leanings?

00:27:33.600 And at that stage, if it's politically motivated, then it's not it's not actually anything other

00:27:40.000 than a partisan ideological thing.

00:27:43.760 And that raises all sorts of problems.

00:27:46.480 I think you're right, because the way you get into this in your book is by saying that

00:27:50.260 you've learned more from failing than succeeding.

00:27:52.700 And I do think if you're smart, you take the time to reflect and consider what matters to

00:27:58.240 you.

00:27:58.360 Like you pointed out the friends who you got drunk with, you had your Chinese food with.

00:28:02.260 I definitely had I wouldn't say, you know, nobody like turned on me.

00:28:07.460 But over, you know, when when I was no longer on the air, no longer in the prime time of

00:28:11.380 Fox, certainly people who had expressed great amounts of interest in me prior to that were

00:28:15.700 no longer calling.

00:28:16.860 Yeah.

00:28:16.980 A lot of people are not like openly hostile.

00:28:19.020 They just disappear.

00:28:20.560 It wasn't like I don't want to be with you because you said something offensive.

00:28:23.620 It was more like you're no longer someone who who star I want to hitch to.

00:28:27.960 Like it was, you know, they sort of want to bathe in your reflective light.

00:28:31.160 And when you're not shining, they're like, oh, I'll go find somebody else.

00:28:34.860 Great.

00:28:35.620 Good.

00:28:35.940 I'd rather know.

00:28:37.060 Right.

00:28:37.360 I'd rather actually have the real information about who my friends are.

00:28:40.600 So that is a benefit.

00:28:41.740 But I do think to your point, it's one of the huge problems in the way we're raising

00:28:45.900 our kids today is that not that I'd want my kids to go through what I went through

00:28:50.160 or what you went through necessarily, but we never let them hurt.

00:28:55.460 We don't let them fail.

00:28:56.960 We don't even let them lose.

00:28:58.500 Well, I just think that you can chart it back to when this ridiculous notion of participation

00:29:02.840 prizes started in schools, both in America and Britain, where if you came last on sports

00:29:08.540 day and something, you got a prize.

00:29:10.560 Just think about that for a moment.

00:29:12.380 I mean, what does that teach you?

00:29:14.720 That teaches you there is no such thing as a loss in life.

00:29:19.260 And then, of course, these kids get a bit older and they discover in the real world

00:29:23.320 when they become adults that life is full of losing.

00:29:26.840 You know, you're going to lose loved ones who are going to die.

00:29:29.100 You're going to lose jobs that you like.

00:29:30.700 You're going to lose, you know, a house.

00:29:33.520 You're going to get gazumped.

00:29:34.560 You're going to lose a car, whatever it may be.

00:29:36.620 Life is about taking knocks and how you deal with it.

00:29:39.820 It's the old Rocky Balboa quote, which I love so much, when Sylvester Stallone talks to

00:29:45.440 his son in the sixth movie.

00:29:48.000 And the son's whining away about being Rocky's son.

00:29:51.140 And he suddenly loses it with him in the street and gives him this tour de force speech

00:29:55.420 about life.

00:29:57.320 And he said, no, life's not about how hard you can hit.

00:30:01.040 It's about how hard you can get hit and keep getting up and moving on.

00:30:06.560 And that it's no bowl of cherries out there.

00:30:08.880 And it's so true.

00:30:09.920 It's what I always say to my kids, and I always say to them, look, you're going to find things

00:30:14.400 you're good at and bad.

00:30:15.660 But the best lesson you'll get in life is when you lose, because the pain of losing should

00:30:21.740 drive you to want to not lose again.

00:30:24.240 It's done that my entire life.

00:30:26.120 And whenever I've lost a job or I lost or I failed in an exam or, you know, got out first

00:30:32.040 ball at cricket, whatever it may be, it always it was the pain of the loss which drove me to

00:30:38.540 then be successful in other ways, in other areas, or the next time I bat it.

00:30:43.660 And you talk to any great sportsman, they'll tell you it's all about how you deal with the

00:30:50.140 bad stuff, the losing, the failures.

00:30:53.340 It's that, I mean, whether it's Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, you go and check the quotes about

00:30:58.520 winning and they'll all tell you they learn more from the losing.

00:31:02.580 And it's the terror and the horror of losing that drives the great sports men and women.

00:31:08.540 To great heights, because they just don't want that taste again.

00:31:12.920 And I think if you take that taste away from kids at school, what are you teaching them?

00:31:16.800 What are you preparing them for?

00:31:18.760 Do you think there's an, I don't know, there's a contradiction in this reticence to allow our

00:31:27.280 kids to lose?

00:31:28.360 I don't include myself in this because I definitely do not have that feeling and I do let them

00:31:32.940 lose.

00:31:33.480 And I throw away their participation trophies and they understand now not even to bring them

00:31:36.940 home, but, um, they won't.

00:31:39.200 So parents don't want their kids to lose.

00:31:40.780 They don't want them to suffer any pain, any hurt whatsoever.

00:31:44.080 And then these kids wind up at, you know, teenagers are in college and they're all about

00:31:49.160 their victimhood.

00:31:50.040 I, have you ever seen a culture want to celebrate victimhood so much, whether they are in fact

00:31:55.920 victims or just imaginary victims?

00:31:58.500 I mean, you look online and now you've got these sort of social influencers.

00:32:02.480 I just pulled one quote and, and there's, there's somebody out there going, I suffer

00:32:07.300 from PTSD, anxiety, social anxiety, ADHD, depression, eating disorders, bulimia, orthorexia,

00:32:12.520 autoimmune disease, panic attacks.

00:32:13.960 I mean, it goes, okay.

00:32:16.820 I understand we were at a place for a long time where you couldn't say any of that without

00:32:20.240 shame, but man, have we crossed over to the other side?

00:32:23.060 And so how do you, how do you go from like, no hurt, no, no pain, no losing to let's celebrate

00:32:28.660 what victims we all are.

00:32:30.380 It's being driven by celebrities, you know, because they've realized there's lots of money

00:32:35.780 to be made from being professional victims.

00:32:38.280 If they can talk about endless, terrible things have supposedly happened to them, they

00:32:43.880 get huge amounts of sympathy and that translates into popularity, which translates into media

00:32:49.840 coverage, which translates into dollars.

00:32:51.720 And it's a very cynical pattern that I see, not with everybody.

00:32:55.800 Some of them I know, and they've gone through genuinely harrowing things, but just think

00:33:00.280 about some people in the public eye who just are really, really unfortunate, you know,

00:33:06.480 something bad happens to them all the time.

00:33:09.260 You know, I talk about one in the book, Jamila Jamil, they kind of, she calls herself a body

00:33:13.360 activist and she's an actress, but she's had so many things go wrong with her that there

00:33:18.160 was a conspiracy theory, which may or may not be true, but she suffers from Munchausen's

00:33:22.820 by proxy, where she just imagines all this stuff.

00:33:26.720 The list of stuff which she's talked about to gain empathy and sympathy is so gigantic,

00:33:33.440 including being attacked by a swarm of bees, where one other witness said there was one

00:33:37.060 bee and so on.

00:33:38.540 There is a premium now in showing weakness, in showing that you're a victim, in showing

00:33:46.380 that, you know, you've had all these things go wrong.

00:33:49.800 And if you try and go the other way and talk about being strong, mentally strong, you are

00:33:55.460 now, you're now part of the problem.

00:33:57.980 You're now not showing enough.

00:33:59.360 You're showing enough empathy with the losers of the world, with the weak people.

00:34:04.580 I'm like, well, why don't we try to work on helping the losers and the weak people become

00:34:08.200 stronger?

00:34:09.100 Why don't we send people into schools to teach mental strength and resilience rather than

00:34:14.440 wrap the kids in cotton wool and console them about their problems?

00:34:20.100 So can I tell you, I actually had this conversation with the head of my daughter's school, who I

00:34:23.780 love, but she said, you know, she was talking about all the diversity training they're

00:34:28.240 doing.

00:34:28.560 And I think, of course, they're getting diversity training every other day from 50 different

00:34:31.880 places that want to tell them about critical race theory and so on.

00:34:35.120 And I said, you know, you might want to consider at some point talking to them about grit and

00:34:40.480 resilience, because it's possible at some point they're going to meet someone who didn't

00:34:45.200 have the training.

00:34:46.820 And she said, well, why don't you teach that?

00:34:50.160 You should come in and teach a class.

00:34:51.540 And I said, I'll do it, but I'm going to do it in an inappropriate Halloween costume.

00:34:55.720 Like, that's the point.

00:34:58.240 Like, to offend, to shock, to unsettle.

00:35:02.460 And then you know what those young women would find?

00:35:04.940 They're fine.

00:35:06.160 It's OK.

00:35:07.380 You can handle it.

00:35:08.880 How do they ever learn those lessons if they just are in their little sheltered, you know,

00:35:12.920 tents, never having to deal with anything difficult until someone has an opposite viewpoint of theirs

00:35:17.440 at college and then suddenly is on academic probation?

00:35:19.680 Yeah, it's a very interesting story.

00:35:23.780 A friend of mine is a guy called Ant Middleton.

00:35:26.000 He was a special boat squadron troop, which is the special forces, like Navy SEALs in America.

00:35:34.380 So he's one of the most elite guys of his military generation and very heavily decorated, but been in many wars.

00:35:42.560 And he was telling me a story about he was on holiday somewhere with his kids.

00:35:46.500 And he's got four or five kids, or five kids, I think.

00:35:48.960 And one of them was his young daughter.

00:35:50.380 He'd been teaching them all to swim over the years.

00:35:52.360 And one was very young, like two or three.

00:35:54.400 And he just threw her in the pool and made her try and get to the side.

00:35:59.380 Now, I've done that with all my kids.

00:36:01.140 That's how they all learn to swim.

00:36:02.820 Because apart from everything else, they're pretty buoyant at that age.

00:36:04.880 So you just toss them around and then they work it out.

00:36:07.960 And, you know, it's a bit of tough love.

00:36:09.740 You're not going to let them drown.

00:36:10.720 You're standing there helping them.

00:36:12.340 But you want them to fend for themselves to get that feeling of slightly struggling.

00:36:17.280 And then how do they get to the wall?

00:36:18.560 That's how they learn to swim.

00:36:19.980 And he said all these other parents were horrified about what they were witnessing.

00:36:25.220 And he couldn't believe that they would find this kind of thing so disturbing.

00:36:31.000 But then he realized this is really where participation prize culture takes you.

00:36:36.880 You know, if you put a premium on weakness, then, of course, you find the idea of tossing

00:36:43.500 a three-year-old into a pool, even if you're standing right next to them, to encourage them

00:36:48.520 to get to the side.

00:36:49.980 Of course, that to them is anathema.

00:36:52.680 It's like, well, you're killing your child.

00:36:54.680 No, you're not.

00:36:55.500 You're teaching your kid resilience.

00:36:58.460 And there's the problem.

00:36:59.880 Right there.

00:37:01.340 Well, one of the things you talk about in the book, and I've heard you write about, I mean,

00:37:04.700 I've read your columns talking about this as well, is what we're doing to boys right

00:37:09.260 now.

00:37:10.080 And, you know, some of these traits, they're not all, obviously, young girls can be strong

00:37:14.640 and courageous and are.

00:37:17.160 But in particular, boys are being shamed for those traits these days because they're being

00:37:22.440 dismissed now as toxic masculinity.

00:37:24.960 And it's not just the woke scolds.

00:37:28.120 I mean, the American Psychological Association, you point out in the book, has released a set

00:37:32.700 of guidelines to try to help psychologists understand what traits are considered harmful

00:37:39.040 in little boys, like competitiveness, achievement, stoicism.

00:37:46.500 I mean, and the and the eschewal of the appearance of weakness that that we shouldn't be teaching

00:37:50.880 little boys that.

00:37:51.860 And, you know, I am one of the women who you reference in the piece saying you said, I don't

00:37:58.880 think most women actually want to date these men who have none of those characteristics.

00:38:03.960 And I couldn't agree more.

00:38:05.680 I couldn't agree more.

00:38:07.500 Well, this is the whole point is that I don't know any women that want their men to be just

00:38:12.680 these weak little doormats running around sobbing all the time and apologizing for everything.

00:38:17.540 When have you met a woman that wants to be with a guy like that?

00:38:19.760 They don't.

00:38:21.080 I want a non-achiever.

00:38:22.940 Yeah.

00:38:23.680 I mean, it's like these radical feminists.

00:38:25.580 You know, they're the ones who want James Bond to be a woman.

00:38:27.940 And I'm like, no, get your own spies.

00:38:31.400 Right.

00:38:31.700 You've got Wonder Woman.

00:38:32.700 And if you have to make that Wonder Man, you know, it never works the other way.

00:38:37.040 And it's got so ridiculous.

00:38:40.120 And I think this thing about masculinity is that really what's happened since the Me Too

00:38:44.840 movement, which was incredibly laudable in so many ways.

00:38:49.440 And obviously, I know about your involvement with that, with what happened at Fox and Roger

00:38:53.320 Ailes and, you know, made a movie, which is a powerful movie.

00:38:56.280 But I just think the problem with it that's come out is that it's now been decided by the

00:39:02.480 more radical feminist movement that almost any form of masculinity, in fact, masculinity

00:39:08.060 itself has become an ugly word and that all men are basically bad unless they can prove

00:39:15.040 otherwise.

00:39:15.360 This was encapsulated.

00:39:16.640 And I tell the story in the book about Gillette, who suddenly decided to reverse decades of

00:39:23.340 advertising where they made men feel good about masculinity and made them feel good about

00:39:28.180 being good fathers, good husbands, good people.

00:39:32.380 But they were strong and they were masculine and all those things.

00:39:36.580 And they replaced it with the most ghastly, woke campaign ever, which began with a whole

00:39:41.760 kind of litany of terrible things involving men.

00:39:45.640 And the premise became, you've got to prove that you're good.

00:39:49.900 You know, we're working from the premise.

00:39:51.700 You're a bad person because you're a man.

00:39:54.080 And I've had this conversation with female friends of mine.

00:39:56.480 I said, you know, I know lots of very good men.

00:39:59.980 I know lots of very bad men.

00:40:02.700 I know lots of men hovering in the middle somewhere.

00:40:05.460 But I also know lots of very good women.

00:40:08.100 I know some absolute horror stories of women.

00:40:11.100 And I know women who are in the middle somewhere.

00:40:13.500 This is called human life.

00:40:15.540 And the idea that suddenly all men have to prove they're not awful because of a very laudable

00:40:22.400 campaign to root out genuinely bad men, I think is a real problem.

00:40:28.240 I completely agree.

00:40:29.980 And of course, the eradication of James Bond played into that because in many ways, James

00:40:34.940 Bond, to these more radical feminists, he personifies everything that's wrong about

00:40:40.020 men.

00:40:40.860 You know, he's hard drinking.

00:40:42.160 He likes to smoke.

00:40:43.180 He likes to womanize.

00:40:44.840 You know, he's tough.

00:40:45.720 He's ruthless.

00:40:46.340 He kills people.

00:40:47.500 He's about as bad as it gets on the woke-ometer.

00:40:50.880 And yet, of course, if you ask most women, do they love James Bond?

00:40:54.540 They love him.

00:40:55.980 Of course.

00:40:56.340 You ask most men who want to be James Bond?

00:40:58.720 Yes.

00:40:59.700 These women have co-opted what was, and I don't even know if I want to call it the Me Too

00:41:05.440 movement.

00:41:06.040 You know, I mean, what happened at Fox and I even think what happened with Harvey, this

00:41:09.260 was about getting rid of somebody who was behaving illegally.

00:41:12.300 You know, who's behaving unlawfully in the workplace setting.

00:41:15.180 It wasn't about condemning manliness and manhood.

00:41:20.880 I remain somebody who stands up for female empowerment, but if you show me a man who is

00:41:26.320 the opposite of all these traits that they now say are bad, who instead of being stoic

00:41:30.980 is always emotional, instead of being competitive has zero drive to compete, instead of having

00:41:35.460 achievement is a lack of achievement, who instead of projecting strength, projects weakness is

00:41:42.540 just fine and I love it, who won't take any risks, I mean, I don't want him on top of

00:41:46.720 me.

00:41:47.320 I think I'm just saying.

00:41:49.040 Well, you end up with just, everyone becomes Justin Trudeau.

00:41:52.160 Who wants that?

00:41:53.840 A man who literally said to a bunch of students that one of them used the word mankind, and

00:41:59.600 he went, well, no, no, no, we don't say that here.

00:42:02.140 We say people kind.

00:42:03.540 And they all cheer.

00:42:04.300 In a moment, Piers and I talk about his relationship with Donald Trump, his very strong thoughts

00:42:14.020 about Harry and Meghan, and my daughter Yardley makes a guest star appearance.

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00:43:18.060 Okay.

00:43:18.520 Now, before we get back to peers, I want to bring in Steve Krakauer.

00:43:22.100 He is the executive producer of The Megyn Kelly Show, and he is going to help us get to a

00:43:27.060 feature we call Asked and Answered, where we try to answer one or two listener questions

00:43:32.360 that have been sent in to us via our email, which Steve has.

00:43:35.660 Hey, Steve.

00:43:36.120 Hey, Megyn.

00:43:36.500 And yes, we have been getting a ton of questions at questions at devilmaycaremedia.com.

00:43:42.780 So keep those coming.

00:43:43.820 But actually, we're going to grab a question for Asked and Answered today from our Apple

00:43:48.560 podcast reviews, which have also been great and have been really filling up as well.

00:43:53.380 So here's a five-star rating from Lindsay Whalen-Draska, but she also had a question.

00:43:58.600 She wanted to know about balance and balancing being a working mom as she is.

00:44:03.380 She says, do you have any advice for female career professionals who have strong career

00:44:06.620 goals and also strong motherhood goals?

00:44:09.380 Is there an end in finding the beautiful balance of both?

00:44:13.660 It's a good question, Lindsay.

00:44:15.160 I feel like every working mom asks herself this question.

00:44:18.500 And I would say, look, in my own experience, you can have it all, but not necessarily at the

00:44:23.160 same time.

00:44:24.200 You know, I was rising up in my career at Fox, and then I had three kids and realized

00:44:29.020 one day they had become more important to me, right?

00:44:32.700 It's like you're sitting around like, oh, wait, I had them, and I love them, and I want

00:44:36.360 to see them, and, you know, realized that the balance in my life wasn't good enough.

00:44:40.960 So I think the challenge for working moms is to just keep reassessing.

00:44:45.180 Are things okay?

00:44:46.180 Are they balanced the way you need them?

00:44:48.440 And I think, you know, there's a certain sector of women who unfortunately can't make

00:44:54.240 this choice.

00:44:54.960 They have a job that doesn't pay enough for them to pay their bills, and so they cannot

00:44:59.440 dial back.

00:45:00.400 If anything, they need to double down.

00:45:02.500 And I think kids can wind up just fine in those circumstances, too.

00:45:05.920 In fact, all the studies show they wind up respecting mom a ton when she works like that.

00:45:10.340 So I don't think you ever have to worry about the way they see you or your relationship with

00:45:15.100 them, I think the pain is in not being there for a lot of it, right?

00:45:19.660 And it's a trade-off.

00:45:21.080 It's a trade-off.

00:45:21.700 I mean, we all have to do the responsible thing, pay our bills, support our kids.

00:45:24.860 But if you have the luxury of dialing it back at all, and you're having anywhere like those

00:45:30.120 feelings I was having, I recommend it.

00:45:33.800 I have to say, I think the money winds up settling.

00:45:38.720 You wind up finding a way to get forward.

00:45:40.860 And you only see those kids once.

00:45:43.160 You know, you only have them with you and in your house one time.

00:45:46.620 So I would say, you know, maybe if you can, lean a little bit more toward the mothering

00:45:52.540 when they're little.

00:45:53.460 And then when they get a little older and they don't want to be with you anymore, which

00:45:56.960 I'm told is going to happen soon when they hit the teenage years, you can rev it up again

00:46:00.880 at work.

00:46:01.620 I think that would be the ideal.

00:46:03.720 But I think one thing to remember as you go through all this analysis is societies, they

00:46:08.380 tend to shame you no matter what you choose.

00:46:10.320 If you work a lot at the office, then you're a crappy mother.

00:46:12.620 If you're a stay-at-home mother, then you're not ambitious and you suck as a woman.

00:46:16.140 And none of that is true.

00:46:17.340 That's all BS, right?

00:46:19.060 You make your own choices, do what works for you.

00:46:21.200 And in your own head, you'll figure out what balance makes the most sense for you and your

00:46:26.220 family.

00:46:26.760 And once you've made that decision, go for it and tune out everyone else and know that

00:46:32.940 I'm rooting for you.

00:46:34.380 Good luck, Lindsay.

00:46:35.920 And now back to Piers Morgan.

00:46:38.400 I do have something to take up with you, with which I disagree.

00:46:41.860 What is with the papoose shaming?

00:46:45.080 Okay, now here in the United States, we call it like the baby carrier, like the baby Bjorn

00:46:50.220 that, you know, you sort of have in the front.

00:46:52.800 Um, it's like the front pack that you stick your little infant in it.

00:46:56.300 And so you walk around, have your arms free.

00:46:58.320 Now I am a hundred percent against you on this because I have a man who is strong and

00:47:03.120 all those other things.

00:47:04.180 And I never once looked at him and felt not turned on because he had a baby carrier on

00:47:09.220 the front of him.

00:47:10.080 Why are you so against them?

00:47:12.740 I just don't like them.

00:47:14.280 But more to the point, uh, I would say this, the biggest selling poster in history was the

00:47:19.940 Athena man, topless Athena man, clutching a baby without a baby carrier.

00:47:26.300 That to me is what every man should aspire to.

00:47:28.980 But here's my real point about it.

00:47:30.740 I don't really care about baby slings.

00:47:33.440 What was fascinating to me was I saw, ironically, James Bond, Daniel Craig was wearing one carrying

00:47:40.020 his baby through, I think it was JFK Apple, and I did a, I did a tweet saying, not you

00:47:45.500 two, Bond, for goodness sake, something like that.

00:47:48.540 That created such a firestorm, that one tweet with my, just my personal opinion.

00:47:53.900 I don't like them.

00:47:55.000 I find them emasculating right now.

00:47:56.680 I totally respect your right to say I'm being ridiculous.

00:48:00.280 However, it's an honestly held opinion.

00:48:02.980 And it created such a firestorm.

00:48:05.200 But I was then bombarded on Twitter for two days with, I would say, 10,000 pictures of

00:48:11.600 famous men, or famous and non-famous people in their baby slings, shaming me for my view.

00:48:18.780 It ended up as a two-minute segment, two-minute segment on the NBC Nightly News, one of the

00:48:25.200 most prestigious news bulletins in the world, about my tweet to 007 about a papoose.

00:48:31.720 At which point, I'm like, the world has gone completely nuts.

00:48:36.620 But it really played back into my, the serious point about it was, I want to have the right

00:48:41.580 to have that opinion.

00:48:42.820 I absolutely think you should have the right to tell me I'm talking nonsense.

00:48:47.120 But what people wanted was they wanted to remove my right to have that opinion.

00:48:51.440 And that was being driven by the liberal Wokarati, who had decided it wasn't an opinion that

00:48:58.180 they liked, and therefore I had to be shamed and cancelled, preferably lose my job and never

00:49:03.960 be heard of again, because I just happened to believe that they look a bit emasculating.

00:49:09.220 Now, I ask those liberals, and I'm a liberal myself to a large degree, I ask them, is that

00:49:15.080 liberal behaviour, is cancelling somebody for having an honestly held opinion, even if you

00:49:20.640 don't agree with it, is that actually what a liberal should be about?

00:49:24.560 No, because liberalism is about tolerance, and about respecting other people's opinions.

00:49:31.140 You know how they, their response to that in all instances is, well, of course, we want

00:49:36.000 you to express your opinion until you say something that's sexist or transphobic or homophobic

00:49:40.160 or racist, which you just did.

00:49:41.480 And that's why you need to be cancelled.

00:49:42.940 That's how they get out of everything, just by saying they're on the side of the angels

00:49:45.420 and everyone else is the devil.

00:49:47.260 But when I watch them, because they came after you on that, they came after you, which is ridiculous.

00:49:50.760 I mean, I'm just having fun with you, but they came after you when you legitimately raised

00:49:56.760 questions about whether we should be teaching children that there are a hundred different

00:50:00.160 genders.

00:50:01.260 And my biggest takeaway was, I love your boss, because they're standing behind you.

00:50:07.960 And my impression from over here in New York is, I could be wrong, but I feel like Britain's

00:50:13.900 gone even farther left, even more woke, if that's possible than the United States has.

00:50:19.280 And so how did you, how is your boss being so strong?

00:50:24.000 Like, how are they not?

00:50:25.000 We had a moment on air when the BBC, which is, you know, it's a publicly funded network.

00:50:32.400 So it's the main British broadcasting corporation, but it's funded by the British taxpayer.

00:50:36.560 We ought to pay a license fee of about $200 each.

00:50:39.980 And for that, we get the right to watch BBC.

00:50:42.060 So we fund it, public money.

00:50:43.640 And one of their departments produced an educational video for kids of about nine and ten years

00:50:50.520 old, in which they said there were a hundred plus genders.

00:50:54.560 Now, the official medical bodies in this country only recognize six genders.

00:51:00.240 Oh, God.

00:51:00.560 Some might say there are a lot less than that.

00:51:03.480 Others would say there's a few more, whatever.

00:51:05.980 I don't think the BBC should be telling young kids there are a hundred plus genders, because

00:51:10.260 what that really means is that gender becomes limitless and can be anything that anybody plucks

00:51:15.780 out of the sky.

00:51:16.880 In fact, in one case, quite literally, where there's an official social media approved gender

00:51:22.600 called astral gender, which is an affinity with the stars in the galaxy.

00:51:27.260 So I decided to test this theory, and I had a guy on who signed a petition to have me

00:51:33.260 canceled and fired.

00:51:35.680 And I said, look, you believe in limitless gender.

00:51:38.260 He said, I do.

00:51:38.980 You should respect.

00:51:39.820 I said, OK, so you want to respect anyone's right to have any gender and identify as any

00:51:44.100 way they like?

00:51:44.640 Yes.

00:51:45.000 OK.

00:51:45.680 In that case, I identify right now as a two-spirit penguin.

00:51:50.180 And there was a long pause.

00:51:51.240 And he went, that's disgusting.

00:51:52.640 I went, ah, so what you mean is it's limitless right to the moment.

00:51:57.560 I said, by the way, I feel a genuine affinity with penguins.

00:52:00.700 We both wobble a bit when we walk.

00:52:02.920 We're carrying a bit of extra poundage.

00:52:04.780 We both love eating fish.

00:52:06.420 You know, we like to run around with our mates in packs.

00:52:09.020 I said, I genuinely feel quite penguin-like.

00:52:11.480 But what you're really telling me is it's limitless right to the point I say something

00:52:16.820 you don't like.

00:52:17.980 Then it's an outrage, and then I have to be fired.

00:52:20.820 I said, do you see the problem here?

00:52:22.100 He didn't see the problem, and they never see the problem, which is if you take the

00:52:27.000 arguments to their logical extension, actually, they don't believe in freedom or freedom of

00:52:32.340 expression or freedom of opinion.

00:52:34.020 They only believe in what they decide people should be doing or thinking or acting or behaving

00:52:40.500 or drinking or eating or what clothes they should wear.

00:52:43.380 And it's that ridiculous double standard, again, which drives the theme of the book, which

00:52:48.640 is if you genuinely believe this stuff, then you've got to accept that other people are

00:52:54.680 allowed to also do what they want to do.

00:52:57.940 But you don't.

00:52:58.880 You don't think that at all.

00:53:00.200 In fact, you think the complete opposite.

00:53:01.520 There we get lectured not only from people like that, but but the media is complicit.

00:53:06.480 I mean, it's the celebrities are complicit.

00:53:09.020 And one of the reasons I am obsessed with the Piers Morgan columns on the Daily Mail is

00:53:14.680 the stuff you write about Meghan and Harry.

00:53:17.200 And I feel like you and I have gone through a similar transition on them.

00:53:21.600 I, like you, thought it was amazing when they were first getting married.

00:53:25.740 I thought this is this is great for the British royal family.

00:53:28.740 They seem very much in love.

00:53:30.660 I don't know.

00:53:31.360 I like the way they look at each other.

00:53:33.400 And when I actually went over to London and covered the royal wedding and everyone loved

00:53:40.040 her, everyone embraced her in Great Britain, they couldn't have been happier.

00:53:44.020 And then those two got very woke and started leaking stories about what a victim she was

00:53:51.180 and how we should all feel sorry for her because of the mean press.

00:53:54.380 Meanwhile, if even from over here, watching the British press over the decades, they're

00:53:58.480 very mean.

00:53:59.360 Like, if you're going to be part of the royal family, you're going to get it and saying

00:54:03.800 it was racist.

00:54:04.740 And and now they're lecturing us about white privilege.

00:54:08.000 I mean, Prince Harry, Prince Harry is lecturing the rest of us about white privilege.

00:54:14.020 And I'm like, and peace out.

00:54:16.980 And we're done.

00:54:18.600 So what is it like?

00:54:20.080 What did it for you that turned you on them?

00:54:22.880 I was just I knew Meghan Markle quite well before she met Harry for about 18 months.

00:54:27.740 I'd followed a few of the stars of Suits because I like the show on Twitter.

00:54:31.740 And she replied immediately, direct message me saying, oh, I'm such a fan.

00:54:36.180 Thank you for following me.

00:54:37.480 Anyway, she and a guy called Rick Hoffman, who plays Lewis Lick for the show for 18 months,

00:54:44.020 we had a good laugh together, just swapping funny stories and messages.

00:54:49.020 And she would email me early episodes of the show.

00:54:51.720 Then she said she was coming to London and she'd love to meet up.

00:54:54.120 We went to my local pub.

00:54:55.500 We had a few drinks.

00:54:56.720 We got on famously.

00:54:58.140 And she said, next time I'm in New York and you're there, we should go out with Rick

00:55:02.020 and blah, blah, blah.

00:55:02.740 All fantastic.

00:55:04.060 And then I put her in a taxi that night.

00:55:06.140 She went to a dinner party.

00:55:07.420 Prince Harry is one of the people at the dinner party.

00:55:09.620 The next night they have a date together on their own.

00:55:12.480 And I've never heard from her again.

00:55:14.720 And that's fine.

00:55:16.060 She can behave that way.

00:55:17.480 It's sort of ruthless social climbing of the most awful kind.

00:55:21.160 But it was, and it didn't stop me being perfectly nice about her when she announced the engagement

00:55:25.820 and through the engagement.

00:55:26.920 And when they got married, I wrote a piece on the wedding day, which is nearly two years

00:55:30.520 later, praising her to the help because I thought she actually liked it.

00:55:34.840 Um, but there were warning signs of the way she treated me.

00:55:37.980 And then I watched the way she disowned her father who was just thrown to the walls.

00:55:42.180 I then saw the wedding where only one member of her entire family was there.

00:55:46.160 Then I heard that she got rid of her ex-husband by sending the wedding rings back in the post

00:55:50.780 when he thought they were happily married.

00:55:52.560 Most of her ex-friends, uh, lined up to say they'd been ghosted too.

00:55:57.580 Uh, all her connections that she'd made in London, like me, uh, she ghosted and got rid of.

00:56:03.060 And then you realize, wow, she is a piece of work.

00:56:06.300 And then within three years of meeting Harry, she's wrestled him out of the country,

00:56:11.220 out of the royal family, got her $11 million mansion in California,

00:56:15.740 where she now lectures us about equality, which just is stupefyingly ridiculous.

00:56:22.300 Um, and she's making Harry make pronouncements about the U.S. election,

00:56:26.360 which is completely against anything the royal family can do.

00:56:29.860 They're supposed to be resolutely impartial for obvious reasons,

00:56:33.220 because the monarch is the head of our state and she has to deal with everybody,

00:56:37.180 whoever they are, whatever party they represent from any country,

00:56:40.340 uh, causing untold damage to the monarchy, to the queen.

00:56:43.680 It's Harry's grandmother, for goodness sake.

00:56:45.860 Um, and then you have all the preaching about the environment,

00:56:48.920 and then they get Elton John's private jet, like a taxi service.

00:56:52.540 They preach about privacy for their son.

00:56:55.340 They then call their new charitable foundation after him and put him into videos where this

00:57:00.300 little kid is being used as a media tool by them, and so on and so on and so on, uh,

00:57:05.340 littered with hypocrisy, uh, sort of vaguely ludicrous, damaging to the monarchy.

00:57:11.100 Uh, and yet there they are, the king and queen of woke signing $150 million deal with Netflix

00:57:17.060 to make woke documentaries, and I simply say to them, if you genuinely want freedom

00:57:21.200 and you genuinely want independence, why are you using the titles, Duke and Duchess of Sussex,

00:57:27.240 given to you by the queen, to do these deals?

00:57:29.800 And how much do you think Netflix would pay you if you weren't the Duke and Duchess of Sussex?

00:57:33.980 The answer is the square root of all.

00:57:38.040 And I think it's, again, a ridiculous situation with two people who want their royal cake and

00:57:45.160 eat it.

00:57:45.720 So I think they've exposed themselves.

00:57:48.260 She certainly is very duplicitous and a terrible hypocrite.

00:57:53.180 And then playing the victim card every time they get called out for their hypocrisy by saying

00:57:58.420 it's all about racism or sexism or misogyny.

00:58:01.240 I've had all that.

00:58:02.240 Well, actually, it's much simpler.

00:58:03.560 It's, they just want to avoid any sense of royal duty.

00:58:08.740 They don't want to do the wet Wednesdays at the flower shows and the charitable organizations

00:58:13.940 in the north of England on a rainy, cold winter night.

00:58:17.720 They want to be in California on their videos telling us all about equality.

00:58:23.120 It is-

00:58:23.760 Well, that's right.

00:58:23.960 If it were about her, her color, her race, if it were about her gender, you know, they

00:58:28.860 just don't like women, then they would have hated her from the beginning.

00:58:32.060 You know, they would have just said, or her being an American, all that, then they would

00:58:35.000 have hated her from the beginning.

00:58:36.280 And they didn't.

00:58:37.380 I mean, I was there.

00:58:38.160 I saw firsthand how they loved her.

00:58:40.820 For me, it was ironic because everyone was praising her as such a feminist.

00:58:45.180 And I'm like, okay, I get that there's like the video of her when she's young and she's

00:58:48.700 standing up for equal rights.

00:58:49.920 But like, personally, I don't see a ton feminist about, you know, it's fine.

00:58:55.240 You fall in love with somebody who's part of the royal family.

00:58:57.480 You got to make some sacrifices.

00:58:58.460 But like, she gave up her country, her citizenship, her religion, her career, you know, her job,

00:59:03.660 all of it.

00:59:05.100 And I'll, I, this is an opportunity for me to play you a funny clip because right before

00:59:10.520 I went over to cover the royal wedding, I was trying to talk to my then six-year-old

00:59:13.760 daughter about what was happening.

00:59:15.900 You know, it's an American woman.

00:59:17.020 She's going to marry this prince, blah, blah, blah.

00:59:18.660 And you know, all the young children's lore writes about how that's your goal in life,

00:59:22.280 Cinderella.

00:59:22.580 And my daughter, to the surprise of no one, had a very different outlook on it.

00:59:30.100 And I don't ever show clips or pictures of my kids, but I thought this is a good opportunity

00:59:34.460 since we're audio only just to play you a very short clip of my daughter, Yardley, then

00:59:39.680 six reacting in advance of the royal wedding.

00:59:42.320 Here it is.

00:59:42.680 Why would someone want to live in a royal family?

00:59:46.200 They boss you around.

00:59:48.560 It's like you go to a whole different country and they have to boss you around.

00:59:54.040 Like, you have to eat with your left hand.

00:59:57.500 You have no choice.

00:59:58.800 You have to.

01:00:00.760 And I don't think that's fair.

01:00:03.360 Because they've planned out your whole life for you.

01:00:07.360 Right.

01:00:07.920 And you already have your life perfectly in New York City.

01:00:11.340 That's true.

01:00:12.880 And then you go to England and surprisingly, you don't like your life because someone else

01:00:18.580 makes your choices.

01:00:20.100 And it's not fair.

01:00:23.520 She saw it coming.

01:00:25.340 She's going to be a TV star, that one.

01:00:27.780 But secondly, of course, that's a very interesting observation from afar.

01:00:32.180 But what you need to explain is in return to giving up your life, you get to live in palaces

01:00:37.900 with servants and you get to be one of the biggest stars on planet Earth.

01:00:41.680 You get to fly around in private planes.

01:00:43.920 You get to go to all the premieres.

01:00:45.740 Everybody sucks up to you.

01:00:47.420 It's like you don't pay for anything.

01:00:49.740 You get your house paid for by the British taxpayer for millions of dollars and so on and

01:00:54.460 so on.

01:00:54.740 In other words, you're basically buying up to a deal.

01:00:57.960 And the idea Meghan Markle had no idea what she was getting into is fanciful nonsense.

01:01:02.620 She knew exactly what she was getting into.

01:01:04.740 And I think her game plan all along was to eventually go back to California as a royal,

01:01:10.500 keep the title, milk it for all it's worth, as she's doing now.

01:01:13.580 And I think the idea that she was the victim of this terrible racism from the British media

01:01:19.740 and the terrible monarchy and the terrible royal family, I think it's a load of fanciful

01:01:24.640 nonsense.

01:01:25.980 Yeah.

01:01:26.180 I mean, the press wrote a lot of bad things about Diana back in the day, and it had nothing

01:01:30.020 to do with the race.

01:01:30.640 If you connect with the royal family and have any sort of a skirmish with them, things start

01:01:34.860 to go downhill fast.

01:01:37.060 To me, the moment was when she gave that interview to Tom Bradbury, Bradby, right?

01:01:41.540 With ITV, and he asked how she was.

01:01:44.420 And her response was, you know, thank you for asking, because not many people have asked

01:01:48.940 if I'm OK.

01:01:49.820 And by the way, Meghan, where had she been that week?

01:01:52.580 She'd been in South Africa, and she'd been around some of the poorest, most vulnerable

01:01:57.560 and abused people in the world, hearing their harrowing stories.

01:02:02.840 And rather than, and I had, by the way, a brilliantly positive press all week in this country

01:02:08.140 as a result.

01:02:09.340 And then right at the end, when there should have been all these big wrap-up pieces about

01:02:13.260 what a triumphant royal tour, she releases this thing in which she makes it all about

01:02:17.920 herself and all about, is she OK?

01:02:20.960 Is she, multimillionaire Princess Meghan, OK, as she stands next to a shanty town in South

01:02:28.080 Africa full of some of the poorest people in the world?

01:02:30.960 I mean, it was breathtaking for its tone deafness.

01:02:34.120 This is why I love Piers Morgan.

01:02:36.280 I mean, you put it in such great terms.

01:02:38.180 Over here, I'm just like, shut up.

01:02:39.780 You married a prince and you live in a castle.

01:02:41.280 Nobody will feel sorry for you.

01:02:42.560 Move on.

01:02:43.880 OK, now, speaking of a prince in a castle, let's talk about Donald Trump.

01:02:47.440 The two of you, you just made news on Donald Trump because you had a conversation with

01:02:53.780 him this on Saturday, just a couple of hours, like a couple of days ago.

01:02:58.260 And I thought, detente, because he clearly likes you.

01:03:02.280 You've said you like him.

01:03:03.500 Even though you're a liberal, you like the guy.

01:03:05.180 You won Celebrity Apprentice.

01:03:06.880 You called him a friend.

01:03:08.860 But then and you were one of the only people he follows on Twitter.

01:03:11.480 And he only follows like 50 people.

01:03:14.020 And then you called his his covid policy batshit crazy.

01:03:17.560 And he got mad.

01:03:19.480 He unfollowed you.

01:03:21.540 But I feel like has there been a thaw?

01:03:24.480 He called you.

01:03:25.320 What happened?

01:03:26.500 Yes, it was interesting because I actually the headline on that piece or the intro to

01:03:30.000 that piece was shut the F up, Mr.

01:03:32.680 President, your batshit crazy ideas about coronavirus would get Americans killed.

01:03:37.380 And so he unfollowed me overnight and I didn't hear from him again.

01:03:41.480 I didn't hear from him again.

01:03:42.440 And then I got a call.

01:03:44.200 I appeared on Fox and Friends, actually, on Friday morning.

01:03:48.100 And I directly talked to the president.

01:03:51.340 I looked down the camera and I said, if the president's watching, he probably is.

01:03:54.860 I said, he really needs to refollow me again on Twitter because he might, you know, get

01:03:59.160 some advice which will help him retain the White House.

01:04:02.080 Anyway, you are shameless.

01:04:03.740 You're shameless.

01:04:04.120 He called me.

01:04:05.020 It worked.

01:04:05.620 My strategy worked.

01:04:06.680 And he I got a call from the White House saying, I'm going to put you through to the

01:04:10.380 president.

01:04:10.800 Are you free?

01:04:11.220 I went, yeah.

01:04:11.820 And I thought, he's either going to give me full barrels because I've been really

01:04:15.340 whacking him all year about his, in my opinion, his woeful handling of the pandemic.

01:04:22.080 And instead, he was very from the front.

01:04:25.340 He was very cordial.

01:04:26.560 We had a 25 minute conversation.

01:04:29.100 And it was just before he went to vote in Florida.

01:04:31.600 He literally ended the conversation with like, I've got to go and vote, which was part

01:04:35.140 of history.

01:04:36.460 But we had a very good conversation.

01:04:38.880 And, you know, he knew I'd been hammering him, but he took on board why I'd done that.

01:04:43.520 And I gave him some advice, top of which was, I felt that what the country really needs right

01:04:50.480 now is a leader that shows empathy about the fact that they're losing so many loved ones

01:04:55.900 to this killer virus.

01:04:56.880 And they're losing their livelihoods and their jobs.

01:04:59.560 And they're worried about feeding their kids.

01:05:01.120 And I said, you've got to show more empathy.

01:05:02.920 It doesn't matter who the leader is.

01:05:04.020 It doesn't matter what party you are.

01:05:05.120 You must show more empathy.

01:05:06.180 You know, I don't know if he has that in him.

01:05:07.660 Although I always tell people, you know, one of the reasons I've stayed friendly with Donald

01:05:11.220 Trump is when I left America and left CNN and came back to the UK, I can count on one

01:05:16.180 hand the number of high profile Americans who ever bothered to contact me again.

01:05:21.820 Donald Trump regularly contacted me after that for no personal gain whatsoever.

01:05:28.860 I was unemployed for a large part of that time just to check in, see how I was.

01:05:34.520 Could he help in any way?

01:05:35.740 Could he put any calls in?

01:05:36.880 And I take people as I find them.

01:05:39.160 He's always been very loyal to me.

01:05:40.800 And funny enough, even after I've been beating him up all year, he said to me, I just wanted

01:05:46.380 to call you because, you know, we've always got a well.

01:05:48.840 And, you know, it's a shame we don't want to fall out.

01:05:51.400 And I totally agree.

01:05:53.340 I think you should be able to divorce your personal friendship with people from their politics.

01:06:01.000 And some people will find that impossible.

01:06:03.080 But I think that's part of the problem.

01:06:04.320 You know, I've got lots of friends who are conservatives.

01:06:06.620 Lots of friends who are liberals.

01:06:07.960 I've got some woke friends.

01:06:09.540 I've got some family members who make Donald Trump look like a liberal.

01:06:12.960 It wouldn't cross my mind to sever a link with somebody unless they were really extreme

01:06:18.960 in some way.

01:06:19.700 But I've never thought Trump is like that.

01:06:22.860 But we had a good conversation.

01:06:24.860 And what struck me about it was that he genuinely thinks he's going to win.

01:06:31.000 And he believes the polls have got it wrong again.

01:06:34.260 He is out there doing three rallies a day now.

01:06:37.480 He thinks there's a direct contrast between his style, which is very high energy, and Joe

01:06:42.600 Biden's, which is pretty low energy by comparison.

01:06:45.180 And I say to everybody who thinks they know what's going to happen in this election, just

01:06:50.760 remember how certain everybody was last time and how almost everybody came a cropper.

01:06:56.680 Because the one thing I've learned about my time as a friend of Donald Trump's, never underestimate

01:07:01.340 the guy.

01:07:01.860 I would say in, you know, having known him for a long time as well, I don't think Trump

01:07:08.440 is a particularly empathetic guy.

01:07:10.880 But I agree with you that personally, behind, you know, closed doors, he can be incredibly

01:07:17.760 kind, generous, a caretaker.

01:07:21.160 I have I know so many people who felt very well taken care of by Trump at his golf club,

01:07:26.140 where he reached out to the one guy who couldn't go out and do the course that day because

01:07:28.900 he had a bad knee.

01:07:29.620 And he made sure that guy was put in the laps of luxury and the drinks came over and the

01:07:33.340 meal came over.

01:07:34.040 I mean, he's considerate in that way that makes people fall in love with him.

01:07:37.340 But I don't think empathy is one of his strengths.

01:07:40.220 And I think it's it's hurt him during the coronavirus because it's not that he has it and he refuses

01:07:44.840 to show it.

01:07:45.560 He's just he's not built that way.

01:07:48.020 So what do you think is going to happen?

01:07:49.100 Yeah, I thought I heard him after the George after the George Floyd killing and the protests

01:07:54.320 as well, because he wasn't able, again, to sort of reach out to to people in a way that

01:07:59.920 they wanted.

01:08:00.440 It may not have worked, but he could have tried.

01:08:02.620 And I think he too often prefers to take a sledgehammer to these things because he thinks

01:08:07.460 it makes them look tough.

01:08:08.800 When in fact, sometimes the strongest thing you can do is put your metaphorical arm around

01:08:13.980 people, if you're a leader and tell them, I hear what's going on.

01:08:17.340 You know how it is, though.

01:08:18.480 It's like he's he is authentic and and I don't think he's got that in him and I don't think

01:08:23.520 he wants to pretend.

01:08:25.100 But what do you think is going to happen, Pierre?

01:08:26.680 Because I was surprised to read that.

01:08:28.920 I know you're a liberal on a lot of things, but like I read that you said you wouldn't vote

01:08:33.020 for Trump if you were voting in this election.

01:08:35.320 Would you vote for Joe Biden?

01:08:37.060 Because because I think a lot of people here who don't necessarily like Trump, the man, are

01:08:42.020 going to vote for him because that while they may not like him and he can be a bully and

01:08:47.440 so on, they're more concerned with all this nonsense that's being stuffed down the throats

01:08:54.140 of our kids in school, the teachers, kids getting, you know, losing their college admissions

01:08:59.580 over one false move, people getting fired over one stupid comment.

01:09:03.840 And they think that's what the Democrats want.

01:09:06.840 Not normal Democrats, by the way.

01:09:08.340 That's not true.

01:09:08.940 But the far left, the established left, they do.

01:09:11.000 So that's, I think, why Trump may get a lot of people like you who are liberal but not

01:09:16.460 woke and kind of sick of this nonsense.

01:09:19.120 Yeah, I've always been careful as a Brit not to say how I would vote in the U.S. election

01:09:23.940 because I find it very annoying when Americans vote their nose like Obama did into our EU

01:09:29.000 referendum and so on.

01:09:30.040 So I think I have to be consistent there.

01:09:33.220 The point I made about Trump was I'm not a natural Republican, nor am I hard left.

01:09:37.680 I'm probably just slightly left of center.

01:09:40.180 That was the newspaper I ran.

01:09:41.860 We were slightly to the liberal.

01:09:43.260 But I'm more of a centrist journalist who likes to be fair-minded about both sides.

01:09:47.880 I've known Joe Biden a bit.

01:09:49.720 I like him personally.

01:09:51.540 I think he's been through some unbearable tragedy in his life, which has formed him and

01:09:56.180 given him an extraordinary empathy, which, again, the big contrast with Trump.

01:10:00.080 But I think there are lots of legitimate concerns about Biden.

01:10:03.220 You know, his age, there's no question he's showing his age.

01:10:05.940 And Trump has 10 times the energy.

01:10:08.520 You have to look at the way Obama's been campaigning with far more energy than Biden this week.

01:10:13.000 So I think that is a problem for him.

01:10:15.460 And I think that a lot of the hard left in the Democratic Party are going to try and pull

01:10:20.360 in the AOCs of this world.

01:10:22.100 They're going to try and pull him to the left.

01:10:23.920 And the question is, does he have the strength of character once he gets to the presidency,

01:10:29.020 if he wins it, to deal with them?

01:10:30.500 I think that's a legitimate concern again.

01:10:32.540 I just don't know what's going to happen in this election.

01:10:34.360 I think that it may come down to a simple equation by the British, simple equation by

01:10:39.740 the American people or calculation, which is Joe Biden, I suspect, would save more lives

01:10:47.300 from coronavirus because I think he takes it more seriously and he's shown more responsibility

01:10:51.420 about it.

01:10:52.940 But Donald Trump might be the person you would back to get the American economy back on its

01:10:58.840 feet as America comes out of this pandemic.

01:11:01.760 And that might well be a deciding calculation for many independent voters where they say,

01:11:07.140 you know what?

01:11:08.020 I don't like Trump necessarily.

01:11:09.860 I don't like his tweets or his rhetoric.

01:11:12.500 I don't like the way he's handled this crisis.

01:11:14.980 I reckon we've lost lives because of it.

01:11:17.320 And that's shameful.

01:11:18.780 However, the US economy, if we don't get it back again to where it was, if it's still

01:11:25.340 tanking in two years time, we're going to have a lot of people dying because of the failed

01:11:30.300 economy, a lot of people will be losing their jobs, there'll be a lot of people taking their

01:11:34.780 own lives, a lot of people dying from other things because they're at home and all sorts

01:11:39.920 of spinoffs we know from a failing economy.

01:11:43.120 So the US economy is hugely important.

01:11:45.140 And Trump has proven right up to the point of this pandemic that he knows how to run a

01:11:49.580 good economy.

01:11:50.040 So I think there are lots of calculations there which may not come through in polling,

01:11:54.260 but might actually be a defining aspect in this election.

01:12:00.200 You've been so generous with your time.

01:12:01.900 Let me just ask you one other question, because there was a time when you were on CNN and I

01:12:06.420 was on Fox and we were up against each other.

01:12:08.600 And then CNN, in a completely dumb move, cancelled your show.

01:12:13.560 And now, you know, they're doing well because of Trump, right?

01:12:17.320 All of cable news is doing well because of Trump.

01:12:19.720 But I wonder how you feel about the media, the American media and CNN in particular these

01:12:24.300 days.

01:12:25.460 Well, CNN's become, I think, as part of Xana's MSNBC.

01:12:29.060 And I think that when they try and pretend they have it, it's ridiculous.

01:12:31.880 Everybody who watches it knows they have.

01:12:33.800 They've gone all in anti-Trump, not all the anchors, but certainly most of the primetime

01:12:38.440 anchors make no secret that they're disdained to Trump.

01:12:41.740 And you know from the way they, for example, obsessed about Russian collusion for years.

01:12:47.520 And then it ends up to be this huge nothing burger.

01:12:50.980 And yet, when we have the Biden laptop emails scandal, they ignore it because they say they

01:12:56.760 don't have hard evidence.

01:12:58.040 Well, it didn't stop them on Russian collusion.

01:13:00.180 So I look at my old employees with a lot of affection by the time I had there, made many

01:13:03.840 friends.

01:13:04.720 But I'm like, wow, you know, this has become partisan as a network, as much as MSNBC, as

01:13:10.880 much as Fox for the other side.

01:13:13.860 And they should just be more transparent about it.

01:13:15.620 You know, I'd have more respect for them if I'd just say, yeah, we are.

01:13:18.540 We don't like Trump.

01:13:19.760 We don't want him to win.

01:13:21.080 We're in the tank for the Democrats.

01:13:23.820 Be honest.

01:13:24.940 At least if you're honest, people can make their own calculation.

01:13:27.220 But when you basically pretend that you're still completely impartial, but your output

01:13:33.780 is clearly not, that's problematic.

01:13:37.460 Is it true that Brian Stelter canceled you from his show this past weekend?

01:13:40.640 Brian Stelter, he canceled me, having his producer kept begging me to come on for weeks

01:13:46.940 and weeks and weeks about the book.

01:13:48.700 Eventually, I agreed, made time for them.

01:13:50.680 It was scheduled for Sunday.

01:13:52.440 Yesterday, it's gone.

01:13:53.320 And, you know, the moment I appeared on Fox and Friends and said I thought that the failure

01:13:58.400 of mainstream media to cover the Hunter Biden story properly and the fact that social media

01:14:04.080 companies like Facebook and Twitter were deliberately suppressing it, I thought was completely alarming

01:14:09.680 and very partisan and obviously skewed to the Democrats.

01:14:14.500 And at that point, I was uninvited.

01:14:17.620 Suddenly, they had a huge booking, which apparently meant I had to be canceled.

01:14:21.400 And the huge booking turned out to be an executive editor from the Associated Press.

01:14:25.620 Well, no offense to him or her, but that ain't a huge booking.

01:14:30.040 No, that is not an eyeball draw and they know it.

01:14:32.860 And by the way, if it's not a lie, which it clearly is, then they'll be booking you again.

01:14:38.020 They'll have you on CNN at some point this week or next Sunday.

01:14:41.240 And you'll get the chance to say exactly what you want to see.

01:14:43.740 We'll see.

01:14:44.920 Stupid, stupid people.

01:14:45.600 Yeah, pigs will fly over my home first.

01:14:48.220 Listen, it's been a pleasure.

01:14:50.240 I love talking to you.

01:14:51.820 And now hopefully the audience can see if they weren't already enjoying the Daily Mail and

01:14:55.400 your columns, why I enjoy them so much.

01:14:57.780 It's just like you read it and I feel like, uh-huh, someone who's saying all the things.

01:15:02.880 And even if I don't agree with you all the time, I love the way you say the things and

01:15:06.740 just your unabashed nature.

01:15:09.040 We need more of that, not less.

01:15:10.860 Piers, all the best.

01:15:11.880 Thank you, Megan.

01:15:12.420 I've enjoyed it very much.

01:15:13.480 Thank you.

01:15:13.800 The book is called Wake Up.

01:15:16.040 Wake Up.

01:15:16.820 It should be called Wake Up America, too.

01:15:18.720 And I highly recommend it.

01:15:20.040 The man speaks sense.

01:15:24.340 Our thanks again to Piers Morgan for that.

01:15:26.480 Very much enjoyed that exchange.

01:15:28.000 Listen, today's episode was brought to you in part by Home Title Lock.

01:15:31.000 Put a barrier around your home to protect yourself from home title theft.

01:15:34.900 Go to hometitlelock.com now to learn more.

01:15:38.100 Later this week, we are going to have a really interesting political roundtable.

01:15:42.280 This will be the last we have.

01:15:43.860 Well, maybe second to last before the election on Tuesday.

01:15:46.380 Hopefully we'll get one out on Monday.

01:15:47.540 We'll see.

01:15:48.540 But we're going to be joined by, among others, Kim Klasik.

01:15:51.660 Do you know that name?

01:15:52.700 You know her?

01:15:53.320 She is running for, I think it's Elijah Cummins' old seat in Baltimore.

01:15:56.900 And she is the one who gave Joy Behar all that guff on The View that day.

01:16:02.660 Remember about the black face?

01:16:04.720 And then Sunny Hosting got all in her face.

01:16:06.900 And Kim is strong, man.

01:16:08.540 She is strong.

01:16:09.280 She's like, bring it, ladies.

01:16:11.380 Which is always fun to see on The View, isn't it?

01:16:14.020 She'll be here.

01:16:14.960 And we'll have some Democrats as well.

01:16:16.260 My old pal James Rosen from Fox News is going to join us.

01:16:19.060 So don't miss Friday's episode.

01:16:20.660 And listen, thank you all so much for listening.

01:16:22.640 The numbers have been great.

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01:16:27.080 Never mind news commentary where it's been number one or two or three virtually every day.

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01:17:03.080 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:17:05.020 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - October 28, 2020

Piers Morgan on Cancel Culture, Trump, and The War On Free Speech ｜ Ep. 16

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