The Megyn Kelly Show - Political Realignment Favors Trump, and Truth About Democratic Party Machine, with Batya Ungar-Sargon and Vivek Ramaswamy

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00:00:31.140 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.700 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.960 We are just 43 days away from Election Day.

00:00:50.760 Wow, six weeks away.

00:00:53.680 And it is increasingly likely that we may not see

00:00:58.040 former President Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris in a room together again.

00:01:03.000 There might be an NBC debate or a CNN debate, but probably not.

00:01:09.220 Trump agreed to the NBC one.

00:01:11.520 She came out of nowhere with a CNN one.

00:01:14.140 Neither one is agreeing to actually do the other person's debate.

00:01:17.020 And it doesn't feel like they really want to.

00:01:20.480 At least I feel like Trump has decided not to do it.

00:01:23.620 He said he's already done two debates and he's done.

00:01:26.200 So we'll see.

00:01:27.520 They may wind up doing back-to-back interviews on 60 Minutes early next month,

00:01:32.640 which is like, that's again enemy territory for Donald Trump.

00:01:37.160 It's like, I give him credit for going into the lion's den over and over and over again.

00:01:42.280 But when they're so soft on and so openly rooting for her,

00:01:48.700 there's a level of frustration in watching it that, I don't know, maybe it'll work to Trump's

00:01:54.340 advantage because, again, you see the unfair media.

00:01:57.260 Even 60 is going to know they have to ask her a couple of tough questions.

00:02:01.760 But the whole thing is just so frustrating, isn't it?

00:02:03.940 Just to see how in bed the media is with the left and how you just know going into this

00:02:09.040 that it will be rigged against one candidate.

00:02:11.360 It's messed up.

00:02:13.420 Anyway, before we get to any of that, we're going to have the VP debate next week

00:02:17.000 between Senator J.D. Vance and Governor Tim Walz.

00:02:20.280 It's on the 1st.

00:02:22.160 What day of the week is that?

00:02:23.060 Is that Tuesday?

00:02:24.260 October 1st.

00:02:25.260 Looking at my calendar.

00:02:27.320 Who am I?

00:02:28.300 That's Tuesday, October 1st.

00:02:30.320 Okay, but as we assess the state of the race, we turn to the polls and some very interesting

00:02:35.340 results from The New York Times and NBC as Vice President Harris's past immigration policies

00:02:41.780 are coming under some increasing scrutiny today.

00:02:46.500 Bhatia Angarsargan is opinion editor at Newsweek and author of Second Class, and she joins me now.

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00:04:03.380 Welcome back to the show, Bhatia.

00:04:04.720 Great to have you.

00:04:05.920 Thank you so much for having me, Megan.

00:04:07.540 It's such a pleasure to be here with you.

00:04:09.360 Oh, it's always a pleasure to have you.

00:04:10.780 Okay, so let's spend a minute on these polls because it does look like Trump is regaining

00:04:17.820 his advantage in the so-called Sun Belt, the New York Times-Siena battleground poll showing

00:04:22.820 him up five in Arizona, up four in Georgia, up two in North Carolina, which is the only

00:04:29.360 state of those three that he won last time around, but it's tight.

00:04:35.380 North Carolina is surprisingly tight.

00:04:38.700 You could blame that on Mark Robinson.

00:04:40.200 You could blame it just on, you know, changing demographics there.

00:04:43.720 But what's your thought on the latest round of polling in these three critical battlegrounds?

00:04:49.380 It does seem like he's regaining some of the ground that he had before the coup that

00:04:54.560 instantiated Harris instead of Biden.

00:04:57.960 In general, it's a very tight race, but it does seem like Trump is polling more the way

00:05:04.600 he did in 2016 than the way that he did in 2020.

00:05:09.080 And Harris is behind Biden and behind Clinton in key demographics that she needs to win,

00:05:15.780 including young voters, voters of color, especially men.

00:05:20.220 You know, we know that polling is not always accurate.

00:05:22.900 We know that there are people who still will not admit to pollsters that they're going to

00:05:27.200 pull the lever for Trump.

00:05:28.320 But I'll tell you what I'm looking at, Megan.

00:05:30.480 So in 2020, Donald Trump was polling at eight percent of black men and he ended up winning

00:05:37.660 18 percent of black men.

00:05:39.960 So almost double the people who are willing to admit to pollsters they were going to vote

00:05:43.600 for him.

00:05:44.000 He is now polling at 25 percent of black men under the age of 50.

00:05:51.000 And if history, recent history is any indication, that's really what I am sort of focused on,

00:05:57.340 that so many black men are willing to admit to pollsters.

00:06:01.920 Actually, I see a home for myself in the MAGA movement.

00:06:05.200 Actually, I think Donald Trump is the unifying candidate.

00:06:08.500 Actually, I think my children have a better future under Trump than under Harris.

00:06:13.040 To me, that is extremely significant about the shifting tides in this country.

00:06:18.420 You know, Baja, you wrote this book, Second Class, and it takes a hard look at the working

00:06:22.160 class of America and how they've been forgotten by the Democrat Party and they've migrated much

00:06:28.140 more to the Republicans.

00:06:29.580 And I think you're the perfect person to ask about what happened with the Teamsters last

00:06:33.960 week for that reason.

00:06:35.460 We didn't spend a lot of time on it last week.

00:06:37.060 There was a lot going on.

00:06:37.980 The president was almost assassinated again, President Trump.

00:06:40.420 Um, and so, but this was a pretty extraordinary moment in Teamster history, and I realized

00:06:47.880 they didn't wind up actually endorsing Trump, but the mere fact that they couldn't, the leadership

00:06:54.580 couldn't endorse Harris, given that some 60% of their members wanted Trump, really does

00:07:02.420 signal some sort of a sea change here on working class Americans.

00:07:06.720 Absolutely.

00:07:09.300 Let's start with Sean O'Brien, the head of the Teamsters.

00:07:12.000 This man is a national treasure.

00:07:14.360 He is the first leader in modern history in our, you know, era, the first union leader

00:07:20.640 to say, you know what?

00:07:22.720 I'm not just going to do what the elites in the Democratic Party expect me to do.

00:07:26.880 I'm going to represent my rank and file where they're at.

00:07:29.700 What a concept, but what a concept that a leader's job is actually to reflect the people who he

00:07:36.500 was elected to give voice to.

00:07:39.400 And what he did with that power and that leadership was he asked both campaigns, can I come to

00:07:45.340 your national convention?

00:07:46.720 Donald Trump said yes, with open arms.

00:07:49.720 He gave him a prime time slot, 10 p.m.

00:07:52.580 The first night, which was the first time the nation had seen Donald Trump since the shooting,

00:07:56.780 right?

00:07:57.760 He didn't tell him how long he could speak for.

00:07:59.860 He spoke for about 30 minutes.

00:08:01.800 It was a raucous speech, wildly pro-worker, challenging in many ways to the Republican

00:08:07.960 establishment.

00:08:09.100 These were unvetted remarks because Donald Trump wanted the representative of the Teamsters

00:08:13.840 to feel at home in his party.

00:08:16.880 True leadership by both men.

00:08:18.740 And what did the Democrats do?

00:08:20.100 They banned the head of the Teamsters Union, which represents 1.3 million hardworking Americans

00:08:26.720 from the DNC, to punish him for going out there and going to the RNC.

00:08:32.140 And I just think that is so telling, Megan.

00:08:34.840 You have Donald Trump out here with 60% of the Teamsters.

00:08:38.540 You know, they didn't endorse him, but that is an endorsement, right?

00:08:41.520 And meanwhile, who does Kamala Harris have?

00:08:43.980 Who's she bragging about having in her corner?

00:08:46.320 Goldman Sachs, Oprah, Meryl Streep, Dick Cheney, the team state.

00:08:53.780 The tax union, the tax investigators union.

00:08:57.300 Oh, my God.

00:08:58.540 Who wants to vote for the candidate who the people who work for the IRS are voting for?

00:09:03.060 That's exactly right.

00:09:04.220 This is the political realignment around class lines.

00:09:08.740 Donald Trump has cobbled together a mass populist movement of working class Americans,

00:09:15.740 of all races, because more unifies us as Americans than divides us.

00:09:20.620 That is the MAGA movement right now.

00:09:22.780 And meanwhile, Kamala Harris is leaning into the elites who have become the Democrats' base.

00:09:29.720 That's what we're seeing.

00:09:30.400 And by the way, just one more quick point.

00:09:32.260 The UAW, the United Auto Workers, right?

00:09:34.740 They're very, very much still in the Democrats' camp.

00:09:37.420 The thing you have to understand, Megan, is that over a quarter of UAW members are not

00:09:44.780 auto workers.

00:09:45.780 They work at universities.

00:09:47.740 They are grad students.

00:09:49.320 They are adjunct professors.

00:09:51.340 Yes, because what happened was the UAW realized that auto workers are Trump voters.

00:09:57.260 And so they started to basically swell their ranks with college-educated elites effectively

00:10:03.200 trying to become like one of these white-collar unions.

00:10:06.800 When I worked at my last job and they tried to get me to join the union, my last job as

00:10:11.500 a journalist, the union that represented them was the UAW, okay?

00:10:16.200 So, you know, there really is.

00:10:18.320 Yes, there is a class divide even within the unions.

00:10:21.960 But the union leadership in America often really does go, they play the political game

00:10:27.660 and they're in the pocket of the Democrats and they ignore their rank and file, unlike

00:10:32.420 Sean O'Brien.

00:10:33.200 And honestly, Megan, this is a watershed moment.

00:10:35.600 You think the electricians' unions, those electricians who are all Trump voters, they're

00:10:40.520 going to let their leaders next time around endorse a Democrat?

00:10:43.940 They won't because they look at what Sean O'Brien did and they say, we want a leader like

00:10:47.680 that.

00:10:48.620 Oh my gosh, that reminds me of my mom who is constantly talking to her electrician who is

00:10:53.240 definitely a Trump voter.

00:10:54.760 And she gets all sorts of information from him and I'm like, mom, have you been on the

00:10:58.760 internet again?

00:10:59.500 What are you, what's happening?

00:11:00.660 She's like, no, I talked to the electrician.

00:11:02.640 He's definitely pro-Trump.

00:11:04.520 You mentioned Sean O'Brien at the RNC.

00:11:06.920 Here's a little bit of that for folks who missed it.

00:11:09.920 No other nominee in the race would have invited the team says into this arena.

00:11:16.120 Now, you can have whatever opinion you want, but one thing is clear.

00:11:20.640 President Trump is a candidate who is not afraid of hearing from new, loud, and often critical

00:11:28.920 voices.

00:11:30.040 And I think we all can agree whether people like him or they don't like him, in light of

00:11:36.940 what happened to him on Saturday, he has proven to be one tough SOB.

00:11:42.980 Right, so that is somebody who understands working class guys' concerns, and he's not

00:11:53.800 the only one, Bhatia.

00:11:55.340 John Fetterman.

00:11:57.260 I mean, books should be written about John Fetterman's political career so far as a U.S.

00:12:03.080 senator, like the race, the stroke, him not being able to really speak well or be understood,

00:12:10.420 the doubts about him on the right in particular.

00:12:14.100 And then as soon as he became very pro-Israel, the left turned on him, the pro-Israel right

00:12:20.680 started to reevaluate him.

00:12:23.080 He reemerged as sort of this working class guy who understands their concerns.

00:12:28.480 And now, as a Democrat in the critical state of Pennsylvania, it's not like he's endorsing

00:12:34.140 Trump, but he is offering some hard truths about why Pennsylvanians do love Trump and why

00:12:41.960 this state, even though it's become bluer and bluer over the past 10 years, is still likely

00:12:48.680 or potentially at least going to go for Donald Trump.

00:12:52.100 It's tight.

00:12:52.980 It's tight, tight, tight.

00:12:53.980 She spent all of her time there.

00:12:55.380 Kamala Harris has basically moved to Pennsylvania.

00:12:58.480 And here's John Fetterman explaining some of what's happened with Trump there.

00:13:02.920 And I also want people to understand, you know, and it's not science, but there is energy

00:13:09.260 and there's kinds of anger on the ground in Pennsylvania.

00:13:14.160 And people are very committed and strong.

00:13:18.260 Trump is going to be strong.

00:13:19.820 And that's we have to respect that.

00:13:22.080 You don't can't even understand it.

00:13:23.760 And it's not like a science that can explain it.

00:13:26.060 But but you have to just know that it's real.

00:13:28.300 Trump has created a special kind of a hold within the corn and he's remade the party and

00:13:36.040 he has a special kind of place in Pennsylvania.

00:13:38.600 And I think that only deepened after that first assassination.

00:13:44.380 Hmm.

00:13:45.280 Very honest.

00:13:47.680 Definitely.

00:13:48.160 It's very amazing.

00:13:50.260 I don't know if you remember this, Megan, but after the debate that John Fetterman did

00:13:54.160 with Dr. Oz, who Trump had endorsed and Fetterman was right out the stroke.

00:14:00.040 He could barely talk.

00:14:01.660 It was so hard to watch.

00:14:03.100 Your heart really went out for him.

00:14:04.660 Right.

00:14:05.140 But everybody came out of that and was like, wow, Mehmet Oz is going to win, but not Donald

00:14:10.480 Trump.

00:14:11.380 Donald Trump.

00:14:12.280 He watched it with one of his advisers.

00:14:13.960 I don't remember which adviser it was, but they later said that what Trump said was,

00:14:17.400 no, John Fetterman is going to win because people are going to feel sorry for him.

00:14:21.720 I mean, that shows you Trump's real genius for politics and how people operate.

00:14:26.320 He could see that coming.

00:14:28.380 It is very amazing.

00:14:30.000 You know, John Fetterman has this big stroke, you know, faces his maker and comes out like

00:14:34.840 super pro Israel.

00:14:35.960 Right.

00:14:36.280 I think it's very interesting that he's able to both stay a Democrat while facing down the

00:14:42.620 far left of his party.

00:14:44.700 I think that shows real strength and character.

00:14:46.940 I mean, obviously, I want him to find his way to Trump and find his way to understanding

00:14:51.520 why so many of his own constituents are so solidly in the MAGA camp and why it's because

00:14:57.140 they want a better future for their children and why they're right about that.

00:14:59.900 But I do think that it takes a lot of strength to be attacked so viciously and vociferously

00:15:07.120 from your own side and still toe the line and say, no, I represent where the Democrats

00:15:11.420 ideally should be.

00:15:13.060 And I think, Megan, even for us who are kind of on the other side of things, we should want

00:15:18.040 a better Democratic Party.

00:15:19.560 Right.

00:15:19.840 Like we should want the Democratic Party that's represented by John Fetterman to fight against

00:15:24.600 rather than the Democratic Party that's represented by Rashida Tlaib, because we should want this

00:15:29.260 country to be having debates that are elevated and about the issues and are legitimate and

00:15:34.680 honest rather than whether Jews deserve to exist.

00:15:37.040 Right.

00:15:38.140 Yeah, right.

00:15:38.860 Exactly.

00:15:39.340 How do we get down to that point?

00:15:40.680 So the working class remains a very interesting issue in this campaign in that, yes, Kamala

00:15:46.200 Harris, if she's going to get elected, it's going to be thanks to the elites.

00:15:48.800 It's not going to be thanks to the working class with whom she's doing very poorly, especially

00:15:52.540 in comparison to Joe Biden, who did much, much better in particular with unions than she is

00:15:58.320 doing.

00:15:58.800 She's fallen precipitously with all these union groups that did like Joe Biden because

00:16:03.460 he had a proven history with them.

00:16:05.500 And so now there is a bit of a battle still to get some of them through her vice presidential

00:16:11.880 candidate.

00:16:13.040 She seems to have the big middle finger going for them, like in terms of who she sits with,

00:16:18.800 the messaging that she gives about herself.

00:16:20.500 But they sent Tim Walls out there to be sort of man of the people, you know, in his flannel

00:16:25.320 and like a real regular working class guy, like a teacher you can understand, you can

00:16:29.620 relate to.

00:16:30.420 And the latest effort was him this weekend, like working on his car.

00:16:36.520 He's just like a guy who works on the car and kicks the engine around.

00:16:40.340 Here is a bit, a bit of an ad.

00:16:44.020 This is an ad showing him working on this car.

00:16:48.240 Watch.

00:16:49.780 Everything works on here, except one thing I'm still tinkering with, cruise control.

00:16:54.620 So I'm going to show you how to fix that.

00:16:56.280 At the same time, we talk about creating an opportunity economy so that everybody can

00:17:00.580 get the opportunity to thrive.

00:17:01.880 To be able to work on this thing, you got a manual.

00:17:04.180 It shows you exactly what to do to fix things on this.

00:17:07.260 Donald Trump and J.D.

00:17:08.140 Vance have a manual, too.

00:17:09.120 It's called Project 2025, and it's a way to stick it to the middle class by giving

00:17:12.760 tax cuts to the wealthiest.

00:17:14.440 You didn't they didn't give me a manual for this.

00:17:16.320 You didn't plan on using it to fix your truck.

00:17:18.220 They didn't create that Project 2025 just to have it set around as a doorstop.

00:17:24.200 OK, so according to L.A.

00:17:25.720 Times, this kind of car sells for anywhere between thirty nine to fifty nine thousand

00:17:32.160 dollars.

00:17:32.900 So he's just a regular working class guy with a sixty thousand dollar automobile.

00:17:37.620 He can really he's just like you, Batya.

00:17:40.260 That's that's the the Walls campaign's attempt.

00:17:44.060 It's so amazing because Tim Walls is like an over credentialed rich elites, you know, view

00:17:50.600 of what a working class person looks like and sounds like and talks like and does in

00:17:54.540 their free time.

00:17:55.240 Right.

00:17:55.440 It's all acting just like Harris.

00:17:57.660 Right.

00:17:58.160 She's acting.

00:17:59.260 She's acting like a vice presidential candidate.

00:18:01.840 And the point is that it doesn't matter because their base doesn't care.

00:18:06.060 Their base are those same over credentialed college elites, those same rich people, the

00:18:11.540 Hollywood elites, you know, the tech elites.

00:18:13.900 Right.

00:18:14.060 People who make, you know, who work in the knowledge industry and, you know, make between

00:18:18.920 like, you know, two hundred and fifty and a million dollars a year like that is the Democrats

00:18:22.880 base.

00:18:24.100 And so to them, he doesn't have to come off as plausible to working class people.

00:18:28.220 He just has to come off as plausible to Meryl Streep.

00:18:31.020 Right.

00:18:31.280 Like that she picked the working class guy.

00:18:34.080 Right.

00:18:34.620 It's like it doesn't actually have to convince people who actually are working class because

00:18:40.300 they've effectively seated those people already to Donald Trump.

00:18:43.600 That's a great point.

00:18:44.640 It was funny because this past weekend, friends of ours had this old Land Rover.

00:18:49.300 It's legit old.

00:18:50.220 It looks like an army tank.

00:18:51.280 And on the back of it, there's a bumper sticker that read, no airbags.

00:18:57.420 We die like real men.

00:19:02.380 That's great.

00:19:03.980 But I thought was very funny.

00:19:06.140 Don't don't try that at home, folks.

00:19:07.540 Get an airbag.

00:19:08.480 But they're a very funny sort of middle finger to the, you know, overly protected, newfound

00:19:14.020 safety crew on everything.

00:19:15.480 Um, so let's go to Kamala Harris and her outreach to the working class.

00:19:20.280 And that brings me to Oprah.

00:19:22.640 I joke, of course, since Oprah has never, I mean, I would say this on Friday, like when

00:19:27.820 was the last time Oprah actually surrounded herself with actual working class people spent

00:19:31.640 any time with them at all?

00:19:32.560 No, she's on her Montecito mansion ranch with Meghan Markle, you know, dining on mimosas

00:19:38.440 midday and taking her Ozempic.

00:19:40.180 This is not somebody, you know, the guys who actually do work on their cars can relate

00:19:44.240 to at all.

00:19:45.140 And I know you were struck by the most, and it's tough to pick, but the most inane answer

00:19:50.780 from Kamala Harris as so many were.

00:19:53.060 This, this answer went totally viral because it's so empty and it promises absolutely nothing.

00:19:58.500 And it somehow encapsulates everything about Kamala Harris that the left loves and the right

00:20:04.480 can't stand.

00:20:05.540 Here is that moment of her with Oprah on Thursday nights at one.

00:20:10.180 We love our country.

00:20:13.140 I love our country.

00:20:14.840 I know we all do.

00:20:15.760 That's why everybody's here right now.

00:20:17.180 We love our country.

00:20:19.680 We, we take pride in the privilege of being American.

00:20:25.860 We are an optimistic people.

00:20:29.200 Americans by character are people who have dreams and ambitions and aspirations.

00:20:37.600 We believe in what is possible.

00:20:40.120 We believe in what can be.

00:20:43.320 And we believe in fighting for that.

00:20:46.980 That's how, that's how we came into being.

00:20:50.100 Because the people before us understood that one of the greatest expressions for the love

00:20:57.860 of our country, one of the greatest expressions of patriotism is to fight for the ideals of

00:21:04.420 who we are.

00:21:06.860 It's, um, by the way, I, I'd give her $10,000 if, if she can answer this question, name three

00:21:11.980 of the founding fathers, just three, name three.

00:21:14.400 She has no idea what came before.

00:21:17.520 I don't believe for one second she has an idea, but with the hands and the look in the

00:21:22.460 distance, we believe, we believe.

00:21:25.640 And then the hand's still up here and so excited like a school girl on her chair.

00:21:29.540 And then the best is the Oprah who does understand when something profound is happening.

00:21:35.760 I mean, we've all seen that pretending that this is one of those moments with her, her

00:21:39.960 facial expression, like go on, go on savant.

00:21:45.800 I've never received this kind of wisdom, not across from the Dalai Lama, not Deepak Chopra,

00:21:51.860 no one.

00:21:52.520 And even Obama, here we are again, lay it on me.

00:21:56.060 No, it was acting, more acting, but your thoughts on that incredible clip.

00:22:01.860 It's so amazing because you can tell that Kamala Harris thinks she's like nailing it,

00:22:06.280 right?

00:22:06.480 You could tell she's like thinking herself, like I'm crushing this.

00:22:09.360 The thing is, I actually think she was because you have to think about who the audience for

00:22:13.860 that is, right?

00:22:14.940 And the audience for that was there in the room with her, a billionaire sitting across

00:22:18.800 from her.

00:22:19.340 And then the sort of glitterati, the millionaire celebrities who were on video chat, who Oprah

00:22:26.040 had welcomed in, you know, Meryl Streep, Julia Roberts, Ben Stiller, Chris Rock.

00:22:32.500 These are people who have no material problems.

00:22:37.260 They are so rich.

00:22:39.640 So how do you get them passionate about a cause, right?

00:22:43.880 Like you can't solve their problems because they don't have any.

00:22:47.340 You, you word salad, right?

00:22:48.920 You make them feel like the emptiness inside is going to go away, right?

00:22:53.660 Like you make them feel like their emotions, right?

00:22:57.700 Their emotional response to you, their joy that working class Americans will be silenced

00:23:03.500 once again, right?

00:23:04.880 That that is the equivalent of the civil rights movement, right?

00:23:08.480 Like that is how you get Julia Roberts excited about something.

00:23:12.020 And so from that point of view, I think Kamala Harris totally nailed it.

00:23:16.240 I will say, I think from a larger point of view, right, when you get away from the millionaires

00:23:20.340 and the billionaires, have you noticed that every time Oprah says her name, she goes,

00:23:25.120 Kamala Harris, right?

00:23:27.660 I see that.

00:23:28.700 And every time she does that, you know, a swing voter dies and a Trump voter is born

00:23:34.000 in their place, okay?

00:23:35.000 Because it is just so ostentatious and ostentatiously empty of meaning.

00:23:42.520 And what we saw from the, you know, Biden running against Trump to Harris running against Trump

00:23:48.160 was the switch from we're running against the threat to democracy that will end our democracy

00:23:54.420 to we're running on this joy campaign.

00:23:57.840 And here's what happened there.

00:23:59.340 When they were running as Donald Trump is the biggest threat to American democracy, what

00:24:04.840 they were really saying was the will of the American people is a threat to our rule, a

00:24:12.020 threat to the rule by oligarchy of the credentialed that had been instantiated by President Obama,

00:24:18.920 right?

00:24:19.360 Donald Trump is not a threat to democracy.

00:24:21.180 He is a reflection of the electorate.

00:24:23.960 That's how you win elections, right?

00:24:25.940 To cast that as a threat to democracy is just like how, you know, they said, well, we have

00:24:31.260 to put him in prison to defend our democracy.

00:24:33.720 It was the like, you know, the imprisoning our political opponent stage of defending democracy,

00:24:38.580 right?

00:24:38.960 Then there was the like instantiating a coup stage of defending democracy, right?

00:24:43.280 It's all nonsense.

00:24:44.320 What they're trying to do is to prevent the American people from having their say because

00:24:50.420 they believe that they should be able to tell the American people what to think, how to

00:24:54.820 think and who to elect.

00:24:56.120 And they've lost the ability to do that because they are all rich leftists and totally out of

00:25:00.580 touch.

00:25:01.020 So that was the when they were running against Biden, right?

00:25:04.100 Now that they're running against with Harris against Donald Trump, what they've effectively

00:25:08.800 done is in their mind, they've neutralized the threat posed by the electorate and the American

00:25:14.580 people, right?

00:25:15.240 Now they have joy instead because they think that they are going to get away with this having

00:25:21.160 simply replaced their candidate, you know, thrown out the votes of 14 million Democratic

00:25:27.180 primary voters, and they're going to sail to victory on these vibes, on the joy of the

00:25:33.060 rich.

00:25:33.400 It's the let them eat joy campaign because they think that they have neutralized the threat

00:25:39.560 posed by the millions and millions of Americans who want Donald Trump.

00:25:44.620 And that's really what you're seeing with this Oprah stuff.

00:25:47.500 It's the let them eat the joy of the rich.

00:25:50.700 That is what Kamala Harris is offering the American people.

00:25:53.660 And unfortunately, because of the way the media works, she's getting very far with it.

00:25:58.960 OK, so Bhaji, you may have missed this on Friday, but speaking of the Oprah yelling, it

00:26:03.820 was a lot.

00:26:05.560 And I said this on Friday, but I really feel like she's just out of step with where broadcasting

00:26:11.400 has gone since she was a star.

00:26:13.600 We, if anything, we've taken the tone down.

00:26:17.620 We don't yell at the audience anymore.

00:26:19.300 It's very jarring.

00:26:20.660 Most young people in particular are used to consuming their news now via podcast and on

00:26:25.720 their phone in a way that's not on their living room and just having Oprah pop in and

00:26:30.000 entertain you.

00:26:30.920 It's longer form conversations that are meaningful where you really are searching for explanations

00:26:36.160 that will help you understand something.

00:26:37.780 It's not screaming in people's faces.

00:26:41.340 She's out of touch.

00:26:43.280 And here are our favorite examples.

00:26:46.340 Thanks for joining us for this very special event.

00:26:49.720 Unite for America!

00:26:54.340 Hope and joy rising.

00:26:57.800 And there's been a...

00:26:59.660 Can you feel it?

00:27:00.680 You can feel it.

00:27:01.680 You can feel it.

00:27:02.500 Can you feel it?

00:27:03.960 We can feel it.

00:27:05.360 Chefs for Kamala.

00:27:07.080 Love that group.

00:27:09.440 Republicans for Harris.

00:27:11.000 Love that group even more.

00:27:14.980 We've got Swifties.

00:27:16.960 Where are you?

00:27:17.460 Swifties for Kamala!

00:27:20.260 Oh, my God.

00:27:20.800 Here, Chris Rock is in the house.

00:27:22.300 Chris, where are you?

00:27:23.060 Chris Rock is in the house.

00:27:27.480 Jennifer Lopez!

00:27:29.660 Where are you, Jennifer?

00:27:31.240 Yes!

00:27:33.380 Julia Roberts.

00:27:34.180 Where are you?

00:27:37.360 And this narrowed street is in the house.

00:27:43.800 Please welcome Kamala Harris!

00:27:47.240 Oh, my Lord.

00:27:48.180 Okay, you get it.

00:27:49.440 She...

00:27:49.960 Can I tell you?

00:27:50.820 Baccia, she is the leaf blower of television hosts,

00:27:54.500 where you're like,

00:27:55.260 be quiet!

00:27:56.760 So annoying!

00:27:57.960 Turn it down!

00:27:59.020 When is it going to end?

00:28:00.120 It's really funny because I went back and re-watched the speech that she gave at the DNC.

00:28:07.400 There was a lot of talk there about, you know, how we're more united than divided,

00:28:12.540 a one America, like, you know, we should come together and elect Kamala Harris and not the

00:28:17.880 threat to democracy.

00:28:18.740 And, like, they don't realize, like, that they literally are undermining everything they're

00:28:23.720 trying to do.

00:28:24.300 I always thought of Oprah as a uniter, not a divider, as somebody who really did have a feel

00:28:29.880 for what average Americans' lives were like, you know, evidenced by the fact that she was able to

00:28:34.940 have this, you know, amazing, loyal audience of just normies, like regular people who got a lot

00:28:41.080 out of her content.

00:28:42.660 So this is just so disappointing.

00:28:45.700 Like, Donald Trump-

00:28:45.760 It's before she got political.

00:28:47.700 It's before she got political.

00:28:48.640 She went for Obama.

00:28:50.020 She abandoned all the women who made her a star, who made her a billionaire.

00:28:54.460 She gave them the middle finger and instead leaned into race.

00:28:58.180 And then she campaigned for Barack Obama.

00:29:01.120 She really did help him win Iowa.

00:29:02.720 And now she considers herself a political kingmaker.

00:29:05.340 And she doesn't realize that she's actually post-her relevancy, post-her massive stardom.

00:29:10.760 And she really should probably just enjoy her $4 billion in Montecito and enjoy, like,

00:29:16.000 just have a great time with it.

00:29:17.180 Go hang out with Meghan Markle, who you also falsely rehabilitated and let her smear the

00:29:21.480 royal family without any journalistic integrity or questions.

00:29:24.480 And now she's trying to do the same for Kamala Harris.

00:29:26.340 But she's not a kingmaker.

00:29:27.500 She's not going to make Kamala Harris.

00:29:28.820 If Kamala Harris is going to make it, she probably was helped much more by the Taylor Swift

00:29:32.380 endorsement than she was by the Oprah Winfrey.

00:29:34.360 Um, but I think Kamala Harris is, if she's going to make it at all, she's going to make

00:29:37.800 it because Donald Trump's unfavorables, not because of anything Kamala Taylor or Oprah

00:29:43.500 is doing.

00:29:45.480 No, I totally have to agree with you there.

00:29:47.300 I think that she's unfortunately running an incredibly disciplined campaign, you know,

00:29:51.940 not falling to any pressure to give interviews, to have policies whatsoever.

00:29:56.860 And unfortunately for Donald Trump, he's running a very undisciplined campaign, despite the fact

00:30:00.980 that he has the winning argument on every single issue, Megan, on every position that Donald

00:30:06.460 Trump has staked out.

00:30:07.760 It is where 65% of Americans are at.

00:30:10.620 And that's whether it's abortion, whether it's immigration, whether it's trade, whether it's

00:30:16.560 his support for unions, whether it's LGBT issues.

00:30:19.500 He's pro-gay, but, you know, very, very strict on trans, right?

00:30:24.180 That is where the vast majority of Americans are at, you know, in, in distancing himself

00:30:29.140 from project 2025, this wasn't just brilliant politically.

00:30:33.560 It was really saying to the American people, I am your champion.

00:30:36.760 I'm not going to take the easy points on my side from my base, you know, and betray where

00:30:42.660 I know you guys are at on issues like abortion, on issues like gay marriage, which he took out

00:30:47.640 of the GOP platform and which a lot of people on the far right were upset about.

00:30:53.900 But that was always his promise was, I'm going to understand where you are at and I'm going

00:30:58.640 to be this, in terms of policy, a unifying figure for the working class, for hardworking

00:31:03.860 Americans against the oligarchy of the credentialed.

00:31:07.440 And, you know, Megan, he never gets credit for this.

00:31:10.000 Donald Trump was the first president in 60 years to shrink income inequality in America,

00:31:16.820 to shrink the gap between the hardworking, working class and the over-credentialed college

00:31:22.840 elites.

00:31:23.240 In 2019, the bottom 25% of wage earners saw a 4.5% wage increase, their first since the

00:31:30.820 70s.

00:31:31.460 But the top 25% only saw a 2% increase.

00:31:35.860 And that is the real reason that they call him a threat to democracy.

00:31:40.320 What they mean is a threat to their rule, a threat to their pocketbooks, a threat to the

00:31:46.300 wage theft of the working class by the over-credentialed top 20%.

00:31:51.320 That's exactly right.

00:31:53.300 And that is why in these latest polls, we see that being reflected now.

00:31:58.720 The NBC News poll that dropped, when it comes to dealing with the economy, he's got a 9%

00:32:06.320 point advantage over her.

00:32:07.440 When it comes to dealing with inflation and the cost of living, he's got an 8% point lead

00:32:12.580 over her.

00:32:13.660 And inflation and the cost of living are the number one issue.

00:32:17.000 28% listed.

00:32:18.440 That is number one.

00:32:19.580 And the next closest is threats to democracy, which has 19%.

00:32:23.500 But it's huge.

00:32:25.840 And what you're seeing here is that people understand that Donald Trump helped them.

00:32:31.100 When he was in office, their lives were better.

00:32:33.320 This is reflected in the NBC poll, the New York Times-Siena poll, that people are telling

00:32:37.620 the pollsters, this is from the New York Times write-up of their own poll, voters across the

00:32:42.700 Sun Belt say Donald Trump improved their lives when he was president, a worry that a Kamala

00:32:48.920 Harris White House would not, setting the stage for an extraordinarily competitive contest in

00:32:54.740 three key states.

00:32:56.280 Um, these people feel that Trump will, he'll improve their lives as he did when he was president.

00:33:02.440 Now you, I want to follow up on what you were saying about her remaining underground and not

00:33:08.520 taking any questions.

00:33:09.540 I mean, truly she's, what has she done?

00:33:11.340 She's done Dana Bash in that complete puff piece interview.

00:33:15.100 She's done a Philly local reporter in more puffery from ABC.

00:33:19.900 ABC, same thing, ABC in that debate, a, you know, absolute red carpet, no tough questions.

00:33:25.740 That guy was, I'm sorry.

00:33:27.340 Seems like a nice man.

00:33:28.400 He was pathetic.

00:33:29.480 It was a pathetic display, sir.

00:33:32.360 It was disgusting what he did with her.

00:33:34.200 No follow-ups on the guns.

00:33:35.480 Oh, you own a gun?

00:33:36.440 Then why are you favoring mandatory buybacks?

00:33:38.560 Do you still hold that position?

00:33:39.600 Not even an attempt.

00:33:40.480 Okay.

00:33:40.860 I'm getting off course.

00:33:42.340 And then, um, Oprah, that's really what she's done.

00:33:46.280 And there's nothing else scheduled.

00:33:48.240 Maybe a 60 minutes, maybe not.

00:33:50.340 But if so, it'll be much closer to the election.

00:33:53.500 Um, so we have early voting, although already underway in a couple of States.

00:33:58.200 So the media plan continues.

00:34:01.640 And now we have journalists out there continuing to fail and continuing to justify this plan,

00:34:07.900 which you would think the media would be in the first to object to it.

00:34:11.020 They're the ones getting the middle finger.

00:34:12.780 The voters are getting the middle finger too, but that's our job is to represent the voters,

00:34:16.560 make sure we get answers.

00:34:17.600 That's where I'm going to pick it up right after this quick break.

00:34:19.540 I'm going to squeeze in a break.

00:34:20.440 We will come back with the latest ridiculousness from team media.

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00:35:58.200 So on the front of the media fail and the media running to cover for Kamala Harris,

00:36:03.100 I give you Stephanie Ruhl of MNBC versus Brett Stevens, conservative who writes for the New York Times,

00:36:09.320 on Bill Maher's show Friday.

00:36:11.000 My fear is that she doesn't really have a very good command of what she wants to do as president.

00:36:19.160 It's not too much to ask Kamala, say, are you for a Palestinian state if Hamas is going to run that state?

00:36:25.600 Kamala Harris is not running for perfect.

00:36:29.440 She's running against Trump.

00:36:31.460 We have two choices.

00:36:33.220 And so there are some things you might not know her answer to.

00:36:36.740 And in 2024, unlike 2016 for a lot of the American people, we know exactly what Trump will do, who he is, and the kind of threat he is to democracy.

00:36:47.700 The problem that a lot of people have with Kamala is we don't know her answer to anything, okay?

00:36:54.500 But you know his answer to everything.

00:36:56.960 And I don't think it's a lot to ask her to sit down for a real interview as opposed to a puff piece in which she describes her feelings of growing up and opening with nice laws.

00:37:07.560 Then I would just say to that, when you move to Nirvana, give me your real estate broker's number and I'll be your next door neighbor.

00:37:14.820 We don't live there.

00:37:16.540 Oh, it's Nirvana if you can get the Democratic nominee for president to say where she stands on the issue.

00:37:24.640 That's never going to be attainable.

00:37:27.020 The cluelessness.

00:37:29.020 I mean, imposed by elites in the media like her, right?

00:37:32.300 This is a very important clip because what Stephanie Ruhl is pretending to say is that anything Kamala Harris can do would be better than anything Donald Trump would do.

00:37:44.340 He is such a threat that just getting rid of him, it doesn't matter what she does, right?

00:37:49.400 You know, this is not what's actually happening, though.

00:37:52.080 What's actually happening is that she is convinced, Stephanie Ruhl is convinced, that a Kamala Harris presidency will be very good for her.

00:38:00.160 And by good for her, I don't mean on abortion because I don't think she's going to need an abortion.

00:38:05.200 What I mean is it's going to be very good for her bottom line, just like the Biden presidency has been actually very good for rich people.

00:38:14.500 If you own property, if you have a stock portfolio, you know, the economy is doing very well for you.

00:38:21.320 If you are part of the elites, there was really nothing wrong with the Biden presidency from your point of view.

00:38:27.760 They opened the border. So you now have 15 million illegal immigrants to hire at your beck and call to do service industry jobs that now pay a fraction of what they used to.

00:38:40.500 And all of those moving into your neighborhood.

00:38:43.180 That's exactly right. They're not going to be moving into your neighborhood.

00:38:46.000 You're not going to face any of the negative consequences because you're not competing with them for resources and you're not competing with them for jobs.

00:38:52.380 You as the elites are the consumers of this labor. So this was all great for you.

00:38:57.740 And that's the important thing to notice here is they are pretending to consider Donald Trump a threat because he is a threat to their bottom line.

00:39:07.240 He is a threat to their power. He is a threat to their ability to rob working class Americans of wages and give them to illegal immigrants.

00:39:16.400 And they pretend that this is about higher ideals like democracy when at the end of the day, it is about their economic interests.

00:39:25.940 A Kamala Harris presidency will be very good for the rich.

00:39:29.080 It will be very, very bad for working class Americans who see in Donald Trump a champion for their futures and the future of their children.

00:39:37.240 OK, so well said, Baja, as always, the latest example of this, just her hubris and refusal to speak to anything and in particular on the issue of immigration,

00:39:54.180 which is so foundational and important, as you just point out, was espoused, was made clear by Axios and Alex Thompson, a reporter over there who had a report pointing out that in 2019,

00:40:09.900 when she was running for president, she pledged a series of executive actions that would unilaterally give so-called dreamers,

00:40:18.280 two million of them, a path to citizenship, right?

00:40:22.860 The dreamers are those who arrived as minors to the United States, like brought over by their parents and they were illegals and they've never attained legal status.

00:40:32.600 And this has sort of been an issue that's been debated for many years now.

00:40:36.000 What do we do with the so-called dreamers, given that name by people who want them to attain citizenship here?

00:40:41.660 And so she wanted to do by executive action an amnesty for all of these people.

00:40:48.260 That's that's controversial. This stuff can be done.

00:40:50.740 It needs to be done with the support of the American people and a congressional vote.

00:40:54.520 So they went to her and said, do you still support that?

00:40:59.840 And do you also support this related plan that would shield more than six million illegal immigrants from deportation?

00:41:07.980 You'd give two million dreamers a path to citizenship and you'd shield more than six million from being deported.

00:41:15.620 Asked this week whether she would take these same executive actions, quoting here from the piece, her campaign declined to answer.

00:41:25.080 They declined to answer.

00:41:28.620 Asked if she had time for a brief interview to discuss her dreamers policy.

00:41:33.500 Harris's campaign declined to make her available.

00:41:36.620 This is an outrage.

00:41:39.200 I can't laugh and I can laugh at almost everything in the news.

00:41:43.520 This is a true outrage that they are getting away with saying, I won't tell you where she stands on these issues.

00:41:52.600 I won't tell you whether she still stands by her twenty nineteen extremely far left positions.

00:41:58.880 And then the media good for Axios for reporting it.

00:42:02.400 But then the vast majority of the media just says or you get the Stephanie rules saying it would be nirvana to picture a world in which we could actually know these answers.

00:42:13.100 Yeah, it's really horrifying.

00:42:16.000 The Democrats can't actually answer on immigration because their base, which is the college credentialed elites, want the open border and benefit from it in real economic terms.

00:42:29.660 But they need swing voters in order to win.

00:42:32.280 Right. Who want a secure border and a future for their children, which you cannot have when you have a limitless supply of low wage labor.

00:42:39.760 And so they literally cannot answer the question, which is why she's not giving any interviews.

00:42:44.500 I think there's a real sort of crisis in terms of what she understands about the policy she's supposed to be pushing.

00:42:50.220 But also they only stand to lose by making a policy clear.

00:42:55.020 And unfortunately, the elites in all of these different industries are helping her with this because they do know that they don't want anybody to know that they benefited from and totally support the open border because they know you can't win an election with that.

00:43:08.040 Immigration is so important, Megan, because it is really the dividing line between the elites and the working class.

00:43:15.680 If you have a college degree, if you work in the knowledge industry, if you are a person who relies on the English language and credentials to get and keep your job, you will never be threatened by a person illegally crossing the border who doesn't speak English and doesn't have a credential.

00:43:33.880 In fact, you will employ that person and every service that you need to keep your fancy life going will be cheaper for you because there are more illegal immigrants.

00:43:44.980 That's the top 20 percent. That is their economic agenda.

00:43:48.980 And the Democrats, of course, are playing right into it.

00:43:51.660 And meanwhile, if you are working class, if you are one of the 60 percent of Americans without a college degree who does the jobs that we rely on to survive, who drives a truck, who looks after old people, who looks after young people, who's a teamster, who's an electrician.

00:44:06.660 You are threatened, of course, by people who are coming here who are going to be directly competing in five or six or seven industries, of course, whose wages are plummeting because now employers like that factory owner in Springfield, Ohio, can has their pick of the litter of, you know, from 15 million newly arrived illegal immigrants who they can pay much less, who they don't have to give leave to.

00:44:31.400 They don't have to ensure breaks or good working conditions or safe working conditions, too.

00:44:35.860 Of course, they're going to pick them.

00:44:37.620 And so this immigration question is the dividing line between the two classes in America.

00:44:42.880 And I'll just end with this, Megan.

00:44:44.600 They are always calling people racist who point this out.

00:44:49.000 It's racist to want a future for your children.

00:44:52.000 It's racist to want to protect the wages of the hardest working Americans who we rely on to survive.

00:44:58.040 Do you think that working class black men think it's racist to say, I don't know, maybe we shouldn't have paroled 200,000 Haitian immigrants into this country and given them work visas?

00:45:08.560 Of course, they don't think it's racist to say that.

00:45:10.940 In the Democratic coalition, black Americans are the most anti-immigrant people because they understand that, yes, they are coming for their job specifically.

00:45:19.240 And this is something that every Democrat understood until 2015 when they had to do a 180 on this because they couldn't stand that Donald Trump was speaking up for working class Americans.

00:45:29.820 That's so true.

00:45:30.940 Or the black Americans who couldn't get into their community center because they were stashing illegal immigrants in there because these cities are so overwhelmed now.

00:45:38.620 And if they object, they're racist, too.

00:45:40.640 They're xenophobic, whatever it is.

00:45:43.220 Americans, I think, are really getting past these labels and just ready to fight.

00:45:46.740 I mean, it's just I was thinking about these issues and how I would prioritize the one I'm most upset about if Donald Trump were to lose.

00:45:55.040 Like if it's November 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th, depending on when we actually have the vote counted, that's the number one.

00:46:02.700 As deeply as I care about the whole what we're doing to children and the trans issue, I do think the immigration thing is just far worse just given the sheer numbers of Americans that it's affecting children, women, everyone in terms of, you know, forget like just the trafficking of the women and what's happening to the young girls and the rapes and all of that.

00:46:22.440 But once they get into this country, it's not all of them, but there are too many taking too many jobs, fundamentally changing the country who will never assimilate and have no desire to.

00:46:32.640 And on top of all that, I've got news for the elites who probably look at me and think I get them and I'm one of them.

00:46:39.640 I've got news for you.

00:46:40.640 If you think this is all great for you, take a listen to Aaron Heitke, former chief border patrol agent for the San Diego sector, who testified before Congress last week on how many illegals he had tracked across the border who have ties to terrorism and what the Biden-Harris administration told him to do about those numbers.

00:47:05.080 In San Diego, San Diego, we had an exponential increase in significant interest aliens.

00:47:11.680 These are aliens with significant ties to terrorism.

00:47:14.780 Prior to this administration, the San Diego sector averaged 10 to 15 SIA arrests per year.

00:47:20.540 Once word was out, the border was far easier to cross.

00:47:23.000 San Diego went to over 100 SIAs in 2022, well over that in 2023, and even more than that registered this year.

00:47:32.460 These are only the ones we caught.

00:47:34.080 At the time, I was told I could not release any information on this increase in SIAs or mention any of the arrests.

00:47:41.540 The administration was trying to convince the public there was no threat at the border.

00:47:47.160 He was told to cover it up.

00:47:49.420 Don't let the American people know how many dangerous illegals are crossing into this country.

00:47:56.260 That's just the San Diego guy.

00:47:57.660 Let's get all the border guys under oath and find out what they were told and try to figure out how many terrorist linked illegals have crossed into the country.

00:48:08.460 Something Kamala Harris, I assume, also will not answer since she won't even answer for her far less controversial allowing of the dreamers to stay in the country.

00:48:20.940 This one, is she going to answer this one?

00:48:23.060 Obviously not.

00:48:23.740 And no one's going to ask her either, Bajia.

00:48:26.940 Absolutely.

00:48:27.660 And, you know, the number one question is, do you really think that she would fire Alejandro Mayorkas, the head of DHS, secretary of DHS?

00:48:35.820 She would not.

00:48:36.440 Why would she?

00:48:37.360 She was part and parcel of the administration that elevated him into his role.

00:48:41.100 And, Megan, the thing to know about DHS secretary Mayorkas is every time he was hauled before the Senate or Congress and he was asked, why is the border open?

00:48:51.480 Every single time he would say, our corporations are desperate for workers.

00:48:57.560 He literally saw the cartels, these murderous, terrorist, women raping, child raping terrorist organization as a jobs program to displace American workers.

00:49:11.220 Do you know that meatpacking, that used to be like the job to have if you were working class?

00:49:16.900 The wages were incredible.

00:49:18.200 The conditions were incredible.

00:49:19.580 The retirement was incredible.

00:49:20.940 You know, you could have that job for 30 years and retire and have, you know, a beautiful retirement, solidly middle class life, homeowner, et cetera, et cetera.

00:49:30.140 Our meatpackers now are 15-year-old girls who have been raped repeatedly on the way here and supplied for that job by a partnership, an unofficial partnership between Alejandro Mayorkas and the cartels.

00:49:43.540 And if you think that's going to stop under Kamala Harris, I have a bridge to sell you.

00:49:49.420 So dark.

00:49:50.940 But there's some hope in these polls that it's not going to happen.

00:49:55.280 And, I mean, to me, it's not accidental that it's in states like Arizona who have had to deal with this and live this firsthand in a way these other, you know, as you point out, rich fat cats and certainly the Oprah Winfrey's of the world have not had to.

00:50:12.400 Bhatia, always wonderful having you on the show.

00:50:14.420 Thanks so much for being here.

00:50:16.300 God bless you, Megan.

00:50:17.280 Thank you so much for having me and for everything that you do for this nation.

00:50:21.500 Oh, you're the sweetest.

00:50:23.040 All right.

00:50:23.260 To be continued.

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00:52:00.260 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

00:52:05.900 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today.

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00:53:04.860 Joining me now is someone we've had on many times who is here to lay out his vision for the conservative movement

00:53:10.220 and give 10 hard truths conservatives must embrace to save the country.

00:53:16.440 Joining me now, Vivek Ramaswamy, former 2024 presidential candidate and author of the new book,

00:53:22.160 Truths, The Future of America First, which is out tomorrow.

00:53:26.660 Vivek, welcome back.

00:53:27.460 How are you doing?

00:53:28.260 Good to be on, Megan.

00:53:28.820 How are you?

00:53:29.520 Great to see you.

00:53:30.260 Congrats on the book.

00:53:31.060 We'll get into it.

00:53:32.000 A couple of news headlines before we get there.

00:53:35.740 Sure.

00:53:36.100 Latest polling out today, including New York Times-Siena battleground polls,

00:53:40.480 showing now among likely voters, Trump's up five in Arizona.

00:53:44.800 He's up four in Georgia, and North Carolina is still tight.

00:53:49.240 He's up two.

00:53:50.620 It's a state he won by under 75,000 votes in 2020.

00:53:55.040 Harris was up two in August there.

00:53:57.900 So it's a four-point swing in Trump's favor.

00:54:01.800 But this poll was conducted largely before these reports about Mark Robinson, who's the GOP candidate for governor.

00:54:08.860 He's the current lieutenant governor, who is a black man saying he wants to bring back slavery, allegedly, in these sex talk rooms.

00:54:17.260 He denies it's him.

00:54:18.620 The evidence that it is him seems pretty good.

00:54:21.080 And saying he likes to watch transgender men, I don't know, trannies, have sex with whatever.

00:54:28.500 It's dark.

00:54:29.420 So there's a question about whether that's going to drag Trump's numbers down in North Carolina,

00:54:33.900 because people are going to be kind of grossed out by the GOP candidate for governor.

00:54:37.240 But zoom out from that particular controversy and tell me what you make of these latest battleground polls, Vivek.

00:54:42.940 Yeah, so I'm seeing a pattern here, Megan.

00:54:45.620 This is wearing maybe an older hat of looking at noisy data in other contexts.

00:54:50.060 I think a lot of what happens in the political media in a close race like this is you're going to see a random distribution on any given poll taken over different periods of time.

00:54:58.880 And what you're just seeing is that type of noise, people trying to extrapolate a lot from it.

00:55:03.500 So you're seeing conflicts between NBC's polling and New York Times' Siena polling.

00:55:07.960 You're seeing even what you would look at evolved slight shifts in New York Times' zone polling over time,

00:55:13.820 when in fact that's exactly if you were just doing a random distribution of polling around the noise around an actual mean, the variation you'd see anyway.

00:55:22.600 So that's all a long way of saying that I don't think this polling or the shifts here matter in one direction or another,

00:55:29.060 especially because pollsters have been particularly bad at predicting what Donald Trump's actual supporters are going to do.

00:55:35.380 And so the reality is I think I almost trust on the ground instincts combined with polling at least as much.

00:55:42.260 And my sense is it's going to be a close race to the finish, but I think that in the current trajectory, I actually feel very good about Donald Trump.

00:55:48.680 I'm less optimistic about the Republican Senate candidates, and that's kind of my pulse on where things stand in the race right now.

00:55:54.020 Just to give you an example, real clear politics, the other day put out this little chart.

00:55:59.340 This is Pennsylvania, and it was very interesting, Vivek.

00:56:02.500 It was an attempt to look at how the pollsters did when it came to predicting Trump's vote in 16 and 20.

00:56:11.880 And this one just looks at Pennsylvania, so it's just a little snapshot.

00:56:15.800 But here it is, two pollsters overestimated the Trump vote in 2020, Trafalgar by 3.2 and Insider Advantage by 3.2.

00:56:27.620 Every other pollster, Emerson, New York Times, Siena, Quinnipiac, CNN, CBS, FNM, Marist, and Washington Post, all overestimated the other way, and by a lot in some cases.

00:56:38.900 Listen to how it went. These are all Democrat overestimations, like that Joe Biden was going to do better than he did.

00:56:46.580 Emerson, 2.8. New York Times, Siena, 4.8, overstating what he actually got or predicting in the last polls.

00:56:52.260 Quinnipiac, plus 5.8 for the Dems. CNN, 8.8. CBS, 5.8. FNM, 4.8. Marist, 3.8. Washington Post, 5.8.

00:57:05.120 So the overwhelming number of polls greatly overestimated how the Democrat would do.

00:57:10.860 I could give you the Dem list in 2016, which was even worse, overestimating Hillary Clinton's performance.

00:57:17.620 I think the big question in this race right now is whether any of these pollsters has corrected or figured out how to correct their terrible polling.

00:57:26.800 Because if they haven't, you're right, Donald Trump should be feeling pretty good.

00:57:30.260 Yeah, I don't think they have, Megan. And the reality is it reminds me of there's an old book called A Random Walk Down Wall Street, something to that effect, which basically concludes that a monkey throwing darts at a dartboard picking stocks that way would either equally perform or outperform on a post-fee basis, most professional Wall Street analysts or portfolio managers.

00:57:50.380 You see the same thing with respect to the polling. I think a monkey throwing darts at a dartboard might do better than the average pollster here because the equivalent of the fees in the investment industry are like the biases baked into these mainstream media institutions that inadvertently, even in ways that they don't realize in their sampling or the kinds of audiences that skew even 1% over from what the general population is, amplify their own internal biases that you see show up in their own publications or their own news stories.

00:58:19.380 So that's, I think, the reality is that these polls aren't worth much. I'm not telling you anything you don't know or your audience doesn't know, but there has historically been a bias, we know, of Trump supporters who are really either pissed off when they get called by pollsters asking what your vote preference is going to be or certain people who have been afraid to be able to tell another human being they're going to vote for Donald Trump when, in fact, that's exactly what they're going to do.

00:58:42.640 Now, the counterargument for the other side in this election, just to sort of, if you're playing the horse race analysis game here, the counterargument is I think that that culture of fear around saying that you're going to vote for Trump has actually waned significantly.

00:58:56.000 You have a lot of people coming out publicly, even used to be on the center left saying they're going to vote for Donald Trump this time around.

00:59:02.200 To me, that's also a signal that the public unacceptability of voting for Trump has also waned, which means that that effect on the polls may have also be a little bit less pronounced in the case of people being unlikely to tell a pollster that they're voting for Trump.

00:59:15.040 So that could argue in favor of the polls being slightly more accurate this time.

00:59:18.320 But I'm not a horse race analyst person, as you know.

00:59:20.140 I love talking about what I think should happen, what I think is the future direction of the country and what it ought to be.

00:59:25.420 And I think that the reality is experts and non-experts alike probably have the same worth of their opinion in analyzing these polls, which the answer is not should be not very much.

00:59:36.740 Well, there is an interesting piece of information in there about whether the debate helped or hurt Kamala Harris.

00:59:45.040 Even though most people believe that she won the debate, according to the various polls that have come out, here's how it looks in Arizona, Georgia, and North Carolina.

00:59:54.620 This is according to the New York Times and their poll.

00:59:57.900 Pre-debate, Harris was up five in Arizona.

01:00:00.820 Post-debate, Trump is up five in Arizona.

01:00:04.320 That's a 10-point swing.

01:00:06.300 Pre-debate, Trump was up four in Georgia.

01:00:09.400 Post-debate, Trump is up four in Georgia.

01:00:12.580 So she didn't gain anything.

01:00:15.040 North Carolina, pre-debate, Harris was up two.

01:00:18.340 Post-debate, Trump is up three.

01:00:20.840 So it was a five-point swing in his favor.

01:00:23.560 So, I mean, it's one of those things where all the media elites told us that he lost, that she crushed him, that she should ask for 10 debates.

01:00:30.300 But the critical swing state voters, at least in the Sun Belt, did not see it that way.

01:00:34.920 Or at least if they did see it that way, they weren't moved to start voting for her.

01:00:38.980 If anything, they were moved to start voting for Donald Trump.

01:00:41.680 And that's why this is kind of curious.

01:00:44.840 She did come out and say, I want another debate.

01:00:47.860 She refused to do the Fox News debate.

01:00:49.560 She refused to do an NBC News debate.

01:00:51.860 Now suddenly she says, now what is it, you know, September 23rd today?

01:00:56.080 I want to do a CNN debate.

01:00:58.020 I want to do a CNN debate.

01:00:58.940 And Trump came out and said the following in Sot 22.

01:01:02.700 They would like to do another debate.

01:01:08.740 Although good entertainment value.

01:01:11.420 A lot of people say, oh, do it.

01:01:12.500 It's great entertainment.

01:01:13.940 I've already done two.

01:01:15.960 The problem with another debate is that it's just too late.

01:01:19.140 Voting has already started.

01:01:21.240 She's had her chance to do it with Fox.

01:01:23.280 You know, Fox invited us on and I waited and waited.

01:01:26.520 And they turned it down.

01:01:29.340 They turned it down.

01:01:30.320 But now she wants to do a debate right before the election with CNN because she's losing badly.

01:01:36.140 You know, it's like a fighter.

01:01:37.780 She sees the pulse.

01:01:38.660 She sees what's happening.

01:01:39.640 She's losing badly.

01:01:40.460 But it's like a fighter who goes into the ring and gets knocked out.

01:01:44.460 The first thing he says is, I want a rematch.

01:01:46.880 I want a rematch.

01:01:49.260 So is it the right move, given the analysis that preceded that soundbite?

01:01:54.080 I think there's a couple of things going on.

01:01:55.360 First of all, with this idea that she won the first debate, I think what many people

01:01:58.840 say when they say she won the first debate is she won relative to the expectations they

01:02:03.040 had for her, which is different than how people actually vote.

01:02:06.260 People don't vote based on whether or not someone exceeded their own low expectations

01:02:10.420 for that person.

01:02:11.440 That goes for whether or not you won that particular fight, that particular venue or

01:02:15.360 that particular debate.

01:02:16.520 That's why you didn't see it really translate into any meaningful, maybe any bump at all in

01:02:22.180 the polling.

01:02:23.180 Now, there's two things about the debate here worth watching, and I think this is why Kamala

01:02:26.200 Harris wants to do another one, is that even relative to the number of people who watch

01:02:30.680 the debate, a much larger number of people actually continue to read the media's distillation

01:02:36.340 of the debate.

01:02:37.440 So no matter what happens at the debate, whether it goes well for Donald Trump or well for Kamala

01:02:41.680 Harris, we can pretty darn well count on, especially close to the election, the media's distillation

01:02:47.100 of it, which will last about a week, being positive for Kamala Harris.

01:02:50.420 So she's smart to ask for another debate, because no matter how it goes, the reality

01:02:54.240 is it's going to be at least positive, even if artificially generated news cycles around

01:02:58.920 her, right ahead of when most people are going to vote on election day itself.

01:03:03.900 So I think Donald Trump's playing this correctly.

01:03:05.880 If it was a little bit differently, if it was a little bit different type of debate, I think

01:03:09.220 the calculus could shift, right?

01:03:10.960 If this were not a debate in a closed room with two moderators likely to be biased, she says

01:03:15.780 she wants CNN again, CNN already did a debate.

01:03:18.500 Without an audience, that's one thing.

01:03:20.080 We've already seen that.

01:03:20.800 We've seen that twice, once with Biden, once with Kamala Harris.

01:03:23.400 I think there's a strong case that Donald Trump has to make, which is what more are voters

01:03:26.600 going to get out of a repeat of that same setting versus doing what they've done every

01:03:32.240 presidential debate cycle before the COVID-influenced 2020 election, which is to have a town hall

01:03:36.740 format, one where you're actually talking to voters, where voters are asking the questions

01:03:40.580 directly.

01:03:41.040 One of the things that does, Megan, is that actually avoids a little bit, dilutes out some

01:03:47.580 of the media bias.

01:03:49.040 So as much as you complain about the moderators, there's only so much they can do if the actual

01:03:52.020 questions are coming from voters.

01:03:54.820 That I think could be a powerful and interesting new format that's better for voters.

01:03:58.580 You make a good case that's good for the voting process itself.

01:04:02.340 But I think it also would be a format in which Donald Trump would actually shine and likely

01:04:06.380 mop the floor with Kamala Harris if I had to make a prediction.

01:04:08.620 I agree he would do well interacting with real humans, something she doesn't seem to excel

01:04:12.720 at.

01:04:13.220 But I disagree on the media bias point because who selects the questions that will be asked?

01:04:19.060 The media.

01:04:19.780 I mean, I've been involved in these situations before.

01:04:23.240 They, you know, the producers and then ultimately the anchors look at the submissions and make

01:04:28.020 choices about which questions they're going to allow, who gets the mic.

01:04:32.120 And it would be all climate change.

01:04:34.260 It would be all, there would be abortion.

01:04:36.560 So I didn't say it would eliminate the bias.

01:04:38.040 It wouldn't eliminate the bias.

01:04:40.300 You're right.

01:04:40.520 But it would dilute it, I think, a little bit.

01:04:42.220 And especially even just that interplay with voters.

01:04:44.580 I think Donald Trump's really good at that.

01:04:46.200 I think he likes people.

01:04:47.280 He likes the people he leads.

01:04:48.480 He likes Americans.

01:04:49.860 I'm not sure that you could see the same dynamic come across in Kamala Harris's own interactions

01:04:53.480 with voters that aren't prescripted.

01:04:55.520 So my advice to him is if there was an opportunity to go for that format, strongly consider doing

01:05:01.020 it.

01:05:01.360 To do it.

01:05:01.760 Otherwise, he's on the right track.

01:05:02.320 Yeah, look at the way they both left the NABJ.

01:05:04.920 Trump stayed.

01:05:05.860 He glad-handed.

01:05:06.620 He was shaking hands, even though he had gotten viciously attacked at that event.

01:05:10.540 And when she left the National Association of Black Journalists, I mean, it was like stone

01:05:14.400 cold.

01:05:14.780 She turned.

01:05:15.620 She walked out.

01:05:16.480 She did shake hands.

01:05:17.460 But there's a shot of the three moderators like, what just happened?

01:05:21.700 She just left like she was leaving a deposition.

01:05:24.780 So there's definitely a problem when it comes to interacting with live humans.

01:05:28.460 I do want to get to, we talked a little bit about the media in the context of the debate,

01:05:33.440 and there's a couple of things I want to show you.

01:05:34.800 But before we do that, can we just talk about this news that just broke in connection with

01:05:38.480 the second Trump assassination attempt?

01:05:41.320 Ryan Ruth is the attempted shooter who was lying in wait and now is in federal custody.

01:05:46.580 And the Justice Department has just released a piece of evidence against this guy in an effort

01:05:51.860 to keep him from getting bail.

01:05:54.140 And it is a letter that he, they say he wrote to a friend who came forward, a quote witness,

01:06:01.380 who is, I believe, a friend of Ryan Routh's, who came forward and has now revealed the letter

01:06:06.960 to the feds.

01:06:07.980 It reads as follows.

01:06:09.640 Dear world.

01:06:10.500 And by the way, this is important.

01:06:11.600 This came, they say, several months before the attempted assassination, several months before.

01:06:18.760 Dear world, this was an assassination attempt on Donald Trump, but I am sorry I failed you.

01:06:25.220 This is very interesting.

01:06:26.060 Months before he actually tried it, he's anticipating that he will try it and that he's going to fail.

01:06:30.480 And then this letter will be read.

01:06:32.280 I tried my best and gave it all the gumption I could muster.

01:06:34.920 It's up to you now to finish the job.

01:06:37.920 Disturbing.

01:06:38.620 And I will offer $150,000 to whomever can complete the job.

01:06:43.000 Everyone across the globe, from the youngest to the oldest, know that Trump is unfit to be anything,

01:06:48.300 much less a U.S. president.

01:06:49.960 U.S. presidents must, at bare minimum, embody the moral fabric that is America and be kind,

01:06:55.220 caring, and selfless, and always stand for humanity.

01:06:57.520 Trump fails to understand any of that.

01:07:00.420 So here's this guy who makes three grand a month, Vivek, and has like kind of a crappy home,

01:07:09.540 but like a home in Oahu, in Hawaii, and his son he's helping support, who I think is a roofer,

01:07:16.160 and he's thrown out $150,000 offer, a bounty on Donald Trump.

01:07:22.440 This is weird.

01:07:23.760 And we'll have people wondering whether this is just the rantings of a madman or whether he actually had a financial backer, right?

01:07:29.900 And why this person didn't come forward earlier?

01:07:33.000 They say, oh, he gave it to me in a box and I just opened it after.

01:07:36.240 All this thing smells.

01:07:37.940 What's your take on where we are with assassination attempt number two?

01:07:41.860 Yeah, so I wasn't aware of that news until you just brought it up,

01:07:43.940 but it just adds to a total weirdness, a bizarre set of facts that continue to get more and more bizarre,

01:07:52.400 frankly, around both of the assassination attempts.

01:07:55.200 I mean, the fact that we still don't have a recounting, a proper recounting of what exactly went wrong

01:08:00.680 with the Secret Service protection at that Butler rally and all of the conditions around that,

01:08:05.640 which I don't need to rehash.

01:08:06.900 Now, this thing, which is just downright strange as well.

01:08:10.900 Look, I'm a guy who responds to facts rather than to speculate what might or might not be happening,

01:08:16.500 but does that sound like, I don't know that there's such a thing as a normal assassination attempt behavior anyway.

01:08:21.760 So you're probably talking about in the realm of people who are doing crazy things anyhow,

01:08:24.520 but this is particularly bizarre where usually the history of these assassination attempts is,

01:08:30.280 you know, it's either a mentally deranged or ideologically motivated person who's carrying out the act.

01:08:35.960 Okay, you don't have these doubly strange facts to go with it,

01:08:39.960 which has like a public orchestration that's an element to this.

01:08:43.900 And, you know, it's just another reminder.

01:08:45.620 One thing, Megan, is it turns out that running for U.S. president

01:08:48.560 apparently is one of the most dangerous jobs you can ever take in America.

01:08:51.680 I'm not sure I could think of another job where the mortality rate is like,

01:08:56.240 I'd have to do the math on this, but is it like 5%?

01:08:59.180 You know, in terms of either people who have run for or become president that have been assassinated in the attempt.

01:09:04.300 But either way, I think that, you know, we live in pretty concerning times.

01:09:10.580 And I think that this is, you know, at least let's just give a generous interpretation of another example of a deep mental health epidemic spreading across our country.

01:09:19.240 And, you know, I do think it's going to take leadership both from the top and bottom up to quell what we're seeing as increasingly crazy behavior spreading across the country.

01:09:27.820 Vivek, Kamala Harris won't speak to the media.

01:09:31.520 She gives these, you know, very friendly sit downs to people who she knows are avid Kamala Harris fans.

01:09:39.820 That joke of an interview on CNN and then the Oprah thing.

01:09:43.400 Um, she now most recently sat down with Wired and what Wired did was ask her a bunch of questions that had become memes on the internet.

01:09:54.560 Like, tell us about your laugh.

01:09:56.960 Tell us about what makes you joyful.

01:09:59.260 It was, I mean, it's just so frustrating stuff.

01:10:01.760 Yeah, and then you get this, okay, Peter Alexander, the White House correspondent for NBC News, goes to the White House and maybe he could ask some tough questions of Kamala Harris.

01:10:15.200 Maybe he could ask some tough questions of Joe Biden, who had yet another senior moment, to put it charitably, this weekend.

01:10:22.480 No, what does he do?

01:10:23.420 So he sits down, he gets a tour of a replica of the White House from Dr. Jill Biden.

01:10:35.040 And they let this guy do this as though he's breaking real news.

01:10:40.520 Just watch what substitutes now for real journalism in America, Sot9.

01:10:45.060 Joining us for this special tour.

01:10:47.660 Hi, how are you?

01:10:49.020 Dr. Biden, welcome to the White House.

01:10:51.160 Someone who knows the place well, the First Lady.

01:10:54.420 The public tours take you to these two floors.

01:10:56.960 You live on that one.

01:10:57.820 Does that look pretty?

01:10:58.400 Is that right on?

01:10:59.020 Oh, perfect.

01:11:00.140 Yeah?

01:11:00.340 Yeah, really.

01:11:01.520 The bed's made, so.

01:11:03.140 The bed's always made.

01:11:04.200 It's perfect up there.

01:11:05.440 Why don't you try to sit in the presidency?

01:11:07.700 I mean, if you.

01:11:08.440 Here we go.

01:11:09.240 If the First Lady asks, I think I sort of have an obligation to.

01:11:11.960 We'll get a picture of you.

01:11:13.240 Oblige.

01:11:14.280 Here's.

01:11:17.780 So it's a fake Ovalop.

01:11:20.080 I'm sorry.

01:11:20.800 Like if they had given this to some puff.

01:11:22.720 But this is the White House correspondent.

01:11:24.280 Vivek, the fails on the journalists are too many to count at this point.

01:11:29.120 I really do feel it's a thumb on the scale.

01:11:32.360 Well, it's more than a thumb on the scale.

01:11:33.840 It's a bit of a philosophy, Megan.

01:11:35.300 And this is one of the core themes in my book.

01:11:37.840 And you're talking about that as lies, as artifice.

01:11:39.980 I named the book Truths for a reason.

01:11:42.880 One of the things that I actually exposed towards the start of this book hits this head on,

01:11:47.380 which is that even if you take the CEO of NPR, for example, one of the things that she

01:11:52.180 has publicly said is that in some cases, our obsession with the truth may stop us from

01:11:59.360 pursuing more important objectives like bringing people together.

01:12:02.940 Now, you and I may get irritated about that, but before we're angry about it, let's just

01:12:07.060 analyze what's at its core.

01:12:08.540 It is a skepticism of the importance of pursuing truth itself.

01:12:12.740 It is a goal, but on a list of goals and priorities where that may not at times be the top

01:12:16.940 priority.

01:12:17.720 That's a worldview.

01:12:18.680 So when I'm watching that video, that's exactly what I'm seeing, which is that

01:12:21.360 their goal to sort of try their clothing on is to bring people together.

01:12:27.060 That's what they will say.

01:12:27.880 And sometimes an obsessive fixation on the truth, so an NPR CEO had to say, distracts

01:12:33.460 us from doing what may be more important.

01:12:36.500 That's a debate.

01:12:37.400 It's a debate worth having.

01:12:38.360 We can be angry about it, but my own view, and I suspect you share it, is that actually

01:12:42.380 the path to bringing people together runs through truth, the pursuit of truth, runs through

01:12:47.620 free speech and open debate, runs through the path of getting to the bottom of what's actually

01:12:52.520 going on rather than giving people the sense that they're being lied to.

01:12:55.120 That actually divides people and pushes them apart, even though the truth is at times

01:12:59.100 uncomfortable.

01:13:00.620 So, you know, in any case, one of the things I try to do in writing this book is I want

01:13:04.460 to expose those best arguments for the other side because we can complain about the media

01:13:08.380 all we want.

01:13:09.260 Are they biased?

01:13:10.100 Are they putting their thumb on the scale?

01:13:12.120 Yes, they are.

01:13:13.240 But there's a root philosophy on the other side that we're up against, and it is one that

01:13:17.400 is skeptical of, if not the existence of objective truth, which some are, it's skeptical of

01:13:23.320 the importance of pursuing it when that comes into conflict with other goals that they deem

01:13:28.500 to be more important.

01:13:29.780 In the case of NPR CEO, I at least give her credit for airing that and being open about

01:13:34.860 that fact, whereas others actually are skeptical of the importance of pursuing truth, but try

01:13:39.060 to pretend like they still are.

01:13:41.040 It's a deeper ideological, philosophical debate about what is the role of the news media?

01:13:46.380 Is it to seek and provide access to truth, or is it something else?

01:13:50.660 And if it is something else, okay, that's a view.

01:13:53.240 Let's talk about it in the open.

01:13:55.020 That's one of the things that I aim to do in this book, and it's part of the reason why,

01:13:59.120 especially after having run for president last year and seen the media front row from a

01:14:02.660 different seat, I really felt compelled to do, which is why we put this out.

01:14:05.960 Here is Peter Alexander doing his job behind the scenes after, what was it?

01:14:13.400 It was at the DNC, or was, yeah, it was after the DNC.

01:14:17.440 So the White House correspondent for NBC News finds himself with exclusive access to Kamala

01:14:24.160 Harris, newly anointed as the Democratic nominee.

01:14:27.320 And does he, at least in that setting, shout a tough question at her?

01:14:30.220 Here's what happened.

01:14:30.780 It's like they work for the campaign.

01:14:59.120 It's like they work for, I mean, that's your chance to just ask one tough question.

01:15:03.580 Just ask one tough follow-up.

01:15:05.420 Vivek, there's something in the news today showing that she was asked about whether she

01:15:11.200 still holds her earlier espoused position on amnesty for so-called dreamers, and she refused

01:15:17.480 to answer.

01:15:17.980 She refused to answer Axios.

01:15:21.520 They just wouldn't take a position.

01:15:24.120 She was asked, her campaign was asked, because she doesn't get asked anything, whether she still

01:15:28.420 stands by, she wants the taxpayers to fund sex change operations for illegals and also

01:15:33.780 prisoners.

01:15:34.660 And their position was, that's not something she has said in this campaign.

01:15:39.920 With no acknowledgement of her latest position as espoused by her is that she's in favor.

01:15:45.580 She's never said she reversed it.

01:15:47.420 So this is the disrespect of the American voter that we just don't get to know.

01:15:52.100 They just, they just don't, they don't, they have no entitlement to understand her

01:15:56.320 positions.

01:15:57.640 It's just, so there's two things going on.

01:15:58.960 One is that they believe her positions don't matter in some, in some deeper ironic sense,

01:16:03.780 Megan, that kind of is true.

01:16:05.200 Actually, I don't really see her as an ideologue anyway.

01:16:07.640 I see her as a cog in a system.

01:16:10.000 She's another puppet.

01:16:10.760 Like Biden was a puppet, frankly, like most politicians and even historical presidents

01:16:15.020 have often been puppets.

01:16:16.340 She's another puppet that's going to be wielded by the special interests that have put her up.

01:16:19.620 So in a certain sense, there's like a deep, ironic truth to the whole thing that her positions

01:16:23.880 don't actually matter, but put the cynical view to one side.

01:16:27.720 The other thing is that the disparate treatment of a lot of her statements versus things that

01:16:31.960 Donald Trump or J.D. Vance or whoever have said, right?

01:16:34.980 So you hear about the conflicts and, you know, the media's uproar over claims of what's happening

01:16:40.180 with Haitians in Springfield.

01:16:42.240 You get a cats and dogs controversy or whatever.

01:16:44.740 What about Kamala Harris making completely unfounded claims, even in this campaign, that women

01:16:49.600 are bleeding in parking lots?

01:16:51.860 Just can you provide one instance of that actually happening?

01:16:54.540 It's a pretty severe thing to say is happening in the streets of America, in front of health

01:17:00.020 care clinics that women are left to bleed in the parking lots.

01:17:03.220 Exactly stuff that she has said.

01:17:05.060 Pretty graphic, pretty specific, not a shred of evidence to suggest that type of thing is

01:17:09.560 happening.

01:17:10.520 So on one hand, if somebody makes an off the cuff comment about what's going on with Haitians

01:17:14.620 in Springfield, that's going to be the entire news cycle for an entire week, supposedly fact

01:17:19.240 checking that without an iota of even fact checking the things she has said even during

01:17:24.440 this campaign, many of which are factually just downright false.

01:17:28.520 There isn't a shred of evidence to support it.

01:17:31.040 And so I think the thing that's going on with Kamala Harris, a few things.

01:17:34.000 One is that she ran to the left of Bernie Sanders in the 2020 election.

01:17:38.100 I don't know if those are her actual beliefs, Megan.

01:17:41.200 I don't think she has a particular ideology.

01:17:44.500 I think it almost is giving her too much credit to call her ideological.

01:17:48.460 I think the deeper issue in American politics is that the people we elect to run the government,

01:17:53.240 they're not really even the ones running the government.

01:17:55.920 So in some sense, Biden's cognitive deficits, in the same way, they weren't a bug.

01:18:00.260 They were a feature to the people who managed him.

01:18:02.820 The same thing goes for Kamala's policy deficits, right?

01:18:05.300 Her policy deficits aren't really a bug.

01:18:08.560 They're a feature for the people who control her and are likely to continue to control her

01:18:12.900 if she becomes the president.

01:18:15.540 And there's a theme near and dear to my heart.

01:18:16.920 It's not particularly a partisan point, but I do think that that's a deeper failure in

01:18:20.300 American politics.

01:18:21.540 It's, again, a core element of what I discuss in this book is how do we restore self-governance

01:18:27.340 in our country?

01:18:28.500 It's not going to be just the fact that we're up against a candidate here.

01:18:32.060 We're up against an entire machine.

01:18:34.200 And part of the reason I'm putting this book out is I want to talk about how do we actually

01:18:37.800 dismantle that machine rather than just focusing on a candidate one at a time, which is a mistake

01:18:42.740 that I think we sometimes fall into.

01:18:44.580 Very smart.

01:18:45.160 I will say before I get into the heart of the book, the truth about Joe Biden being a cog

01:18:51.240 in the wheel appears to be evident every day because it does not appear he's actively the

01:18:56.420 president.

01:18:56.860 It really doesn't.

01:18:57.580 Every window you get into his schedule.

01:18:59.840 Um, and in fact, if the rare occasions you get to see him now, like at a cabinet meeting

01:19:05.900 for the first time in a couple of years that he let his wife run, not the vice president,

01:19:10.520 his wife, he let the first lady run.

01:19:13.180 Yeah.

01:19:13.660 Now we see him over the weekend on Saturday, there's a press conference.

01:19:17.580 We've got this group called the quad.

01:19:19.500 We're having a quad summit.

01:19:20.700 This is the group that's supposed to take on the world challenges like the rise of the

01:19:24.540 Chinese.

01:19:25.580 It's, uh, Japan, Australia, India, and the United States.

01:19:28.900 And he gets up there and he's supposed to be introducing prime minister Modi of India,

01:19:34.120 obviously forgets.

01:19:35.580 And here's what happened.

01:19:37.300 So I want to thank you all for being here.

01:19:39.520 And now, uh, who am I introducing next?

01:19:45.680 Who's next?

01:19:53.380 Distinguished guests.

01:19:54.840 The prime minister of the Republic of India.

01:20:00.060 So cringy.

01:20:01.120 You can see all the heads looking around there.

01:20:02.600 The people in the audience are uncomfortable.

01:20:04.240 I'm sure prime minister Modi was uncomfortable.

01:20:06.740 I mean, Vivek, who is the sitting president?

01:20:08.720 Do we know?

01:20:09.740 Well, look, I think the idea that Joe Biden is the functioning U.S.

01:20:13.460 President has been a joke for a long time.

01:20:15.500 That's not specific to this year.

01:20:16.920 That's been true for the entirety of last year and the entirety of the last three years

01:20:20.140 as well.

01:20:21.060 It's just that it became socially acceptable to say so in public.

01:20:23.600 Once that first debate happened and the media decided this was now inside the Overton window

01:20:28.400 to talk about, I think that, you know, this is a it looks more like a case of elder abuse.

01:20:33.400 Now, who's committing the elder abuse?

01:20:34.740 We could we could debate it.

01:20:36.260 You brought up the case of Jill Biden looking like she's heading that cabinet meeting.

01:20:40.160 One thing I will say in Jill Biden's defense is that, you know, in Dr.

01:20:44.920 Jill Biden's case, she's gotten approximately as many votes, exactly as many votes for U.S.

01:20:50.600 president as Kamala Harris has, which is to say zero.

01:20:54.220 So I think that the idea that the Democratic Party actually might be the most competent

01:20:57.760 among the three, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris and Jill, I might actually go for Jill Biden.

01:21:02.840 The reality is the Democratic Party of the president really doesn't care about the Democratic

01:21:07.940 will of voters.

01:21:08.620 Not only do they not care about it, I think they're somewhat hostile to it.

01:21:12.120 I think the reality is they believe that voters may represent the greatest risk to a democracy,

01:21:19.120 that they may not make the right choice, which is why they're against the SAVE Act right now.

01:21:25.220 But you could go straight down the list of policies or the way they've even conducted

01:21:28.440 their own primary process, the way in which they're making sure the U.S.

01:21:31.760 president, who ultimately even is elected, is constrained enough to make sure that he doesn't

01:21:36.500 actually do something that might represent the Democratic will of the voters, because

01:21:40.280 it's this managerial machine that's actually running the show.

01:21:44.460 And so that's what I think is going on in the country.

01:21:47.320 And let's talk about that.

01:21:48.560 Let's talk about that because I saw Elon last week and he was talking about how he really

01:21:52.560 will take this position if Trump wins of slicing and dicing the bureaucracy and trying to cut.

01:21:58.080 But the question was, what do you think it'll be like, 4% of the government budget?

01:22:02.400 And he said, oh, it's going to be a lot more than that.

01:22:05.040 And he talked about how we'll find off ramps for these employees to join the private sector.

01:22:09.780 We'll help support them for a year or two while they try to find another job.

01:22:13.440 But that the government is just over bloated unnecessarily so.

01:22:17.000 And it's slowing down everything.

01:22:18.640 It's undermining the progress of the United States.

01:22:20.860 This has been a big issue of yours.

01:22:22.760 I remember when we were preparing for that presidential debate with you,

01:22:26.120 we were looking at your proposal to, for example, possibly just cut everybody with an

01:22:32.120 odd ending social security number, like getting rid of all the people who had not.

01:22:36.120 Let's start with that.

01:22:37.500 Well, and we used to look behind the scenes.

01:22:39.580 It could be even too.

01:22:39.800 I don't have any biases against odd.

01:22:41.460 People would say, this is ridiculous.

01:22:43.560 Yeah, this is absurd.

01:22:44.560 And I was like, I'm an even.

01:22:46.600 You're just upset because you're going to go.

01:22:49.560 Anyway, but the point is simply, we need to cut the size of this government.

01:22:53.340 That's part of the problem, that there really are people making massive decisions in these

01:22:58.360 administrative agencies and otherwise that are not elected and who answer to no one.

01:23:03.460 So what do you make of this?

01:23:05.300 I mean, you could be a part of this, but I've also heard the possibility of Vivek Ramaswamy

01:23:09.540 in a Trump administration being the new DHS chief, which is actually really exciting.

01:23:15.620 Oh, it's a few paths forward for me.

01:23:18.440 We can, we can talk about that.

01:23:19.480 I'll turn to it, you know, after the election, Senator, governor, cabinet, all things have

01:23:25.220 been speculated on.

01:23:26.200 My view is let's focus on, we've got a job to get done, decisions to make shortly thereafter.

01:23:31.180 But I will say this point about dismantling the federal government, that is something

01:23:35.060 that was the centerpiece of my own presidential campaign.

01:23:37.780 It's a centerpiece of the book that I'm putting out this week as well.

01:23:41.480 We got to be honest.

01:23:42.320 I'm a realist about this.

01:23:43.540 You're always going to be taking a risk.

01:23:45.700 It's not that this is the perfect solution that you're going to cut 75% of the federal

01:23:49.520 bureaucrats at the exact right amount.

01:23:51.220 You don't know what the exact right amount is.

01:23:52.860 There may not even be an exact right amount, but there's two risks you take.

01:23:57.480 One risk is the risk that Republicans have typically opted for in the past, which is that

01:24:01.520 you cut a little bit around the edges and try to reform it.

01:24:04.540 And you get that right.

01:24:05.760 And if you, if it's not enough, then you're going to go back and cut some more.

01:24:08.780 That approach doesn't work.

01:24:09.900 The approach of incremental reform, in my view, just doesn't work.

01:24:14.340 Because it's like cutting off one head of an eight-headed Hydra.

01:24:17.040 It grows right back after you cut it off.

01:24:19.480 The other risk you take is not the risk of not cutting enough fat, but the risk of cutting

01:24:24.020 so much that you also cut some muscle.

01:24:26.700 And we have to be honest about that.

01:24:27.680 Is that a risk we're willing to take?

01:24:29.060 It's a tale of two risks.

01:24:30.520 Which one are you willing to take?

01:24:32.180 For my part, I'm willing to take the risk of cutting so much fat that we also cut some

01:24:36.740 muscle and where we are.

01:24:38.620 We can then, at least from a blank slate, build up what we otherwise might have chopped that

01:24:44.920 we shouldn't have in the first place.

01:24:46.400 That's the honest approach we have to take.

01:24:48.560 Now, you're always taking a risk.

01:24:50.280 That's the risk I think we need to take for the country today.

01:24:52.320 Because the reality is most laws today aren't made by Congress.

01:24:57.440 They're made by unelected bureaucrats who write fiats with the stroke of a pen.

01:25:02.320 And those today, historically, have carried the force of law.

01:25:05.480 Now, the idea is some of those people, can't they be fired by those who you elect?

01:25:08.980 Not really.

01:25:09.500 The way the system at least has historically worked, according to the interpretation of

01:25:12.860 these civil service rules, stop you from firing four million of those federal bureaucrats.

01:25:17.060 So you bring up DHS, you know, do we need mass deportations of millions of illegal aliens

01:25:22.100 from this country?

01:25:23.120 We do.

01:25:24.340 But my caution would be to don't forget the second mass deportation we also need, which

01:25:30.100 is the mass deportation of millions of unelected federal bureaucrats out of Washington, D.C.

01:25:35.480 And I think it's going to be the combination of those two mass deportations that help save

01:25:38.940 the country.

01:25:40.500 That's, I mean, one of the positions, one of the truths is that there are three branches

01:25:45.160 of government, not four.

01:25:46.860 There are three.

01:25:47.700 And we've had, you know, a very helpful Supreme Court ruling on Chevron deference saying courts

01:25:52.880 do not have to defer to what these agencies, these bureaucrats say the law is.

01:25:56.640 That was a very helpful ruling.

01:25:57.900 But that doesn't do anything about the staffers who continue to rule by fiat over us all.

01:26:03.880 Let's talk about some of the other truths in Truths, the Future of America First.

01:26:09.520 What's the point of writing this book, Vivek?

01:26:11.480 What why are you doing this now, defining the future of America First?

01:26:17.160 Look, I think that there are a few different directions that America First can go.

01:26:22.200 So one of the things I do expose, particularly in the beginning of the book, is that there

01:26:25.800 are some intellectual rifts in our own movement that I think we're stronger for if we recognize

01:26:31.540 on immigration, on trade.

01:26:33.680 Not so much in foreign policy, but immigration and trade in particular, right?

01:26:37.340 Is it a protectionist objective or is it more of a libertarian objective?

01:26:41.640 We don't we don't touch on that too deeply, but I expose that in the book.

01:26:46.020 But the real question is filling a deeper vacuum.

01:26:48.980 What is the current conservative movement actually stand for?

01:26:51.860 We've gotten very good at criticizing the other side, identifying what we're against, right?

01:26:58.440 We're against wokeism and transgenderism and climatism and covidism.

01:27:02.880 We're against the race, gender, sexuality, climate agenda.

01:27:06.020 But what exactly do we stand for?

01:27:09.560 And the thesis I offer in this book is we stand for truth, actually.

01:27:13.240 That's what we believe.

01:27:14.240 And the things that I lay out in this book, if I wrote him 10, 20, 30 years ago, I would

01:27:19.400 tell you to save your money and not buy the book because the truths in this book are so

01:27:23.180 obvious that it shouldn't require a book to actually justify them.

01:27:26.960 Today, I'd give you the opposite warning is if you repeat many of the things that you do

01:27:30.620 read in this book, you're going to be potentially taking real risk, risk of losing your job or

01:27:35.060 your kids getting a bad grade in school because that's the cultural environment we live in

01:27:39.460 today. And so my goal in writing this was to arm a lot of everyday Americans with the hard

01:27:45.720 facts and arguments to be able to have the dinner table conversations that they're otherwise not

01:27:52.120 having. And I do think that's how we save the country, Megan, is all of us starting to speak

01:27:56.400 openly again, say in public what you'll say in private at the dinner table.

01:28:01.040 This is my fourth book. I've written is my fourth book in the last four years, but I

01:28:05.060 did things a little bit differently in this one. This book is not and does not pretend to be an

01:28:09.080 academic exposition. At the end of every chapter, there's five hard truths laying out five key facts

01:28:15.820 out of that chapter that somebody can take with them to the dinner table on debates about the trans

01:28:20.660 ideology to climate ideology to whether nationalism is a bad word to the nuclear family to arm people

01:28:30.080 every day to probably state what their true beliefs really are, but with the benefit of what some of

01:28:35.120 the facts are that this book helps them bring to those dinner table conversations. That's how I

01:28:39.460 think we ultimately save the country.

01:28:40.640 It's fun to read it in written form. It's also very fun to watch you debate it live. There was a viral

01:28:47.840 clip of you with our pal Charlie Kirk at, I think, the University of Pittsburgh last week, where a young

01:28:55.660 woman who, bless her heart, seemed a little confused on exactly why she's a Kamala Harris voter. And Charlie

01:29:04.120 did some rhetorical battle with her. And then you did some, not battle, but had a back and forth with her

01:29:09.880 that was very interesting when there was an attempt to force her to say, what exactly is it about the

01:29:15.780 Trump agenda that you don't like or the Kamala Harris agenda that you do? And here's just a bit of how

01:29:20.360 that went. I disagree with the, some of the laws that are being pushed in Congress that are against

01:29:31.220 the LGBTQ community and the trans community. My view is that if you're a fully grown adult,

01:29:38.560 18 or above, you're free to live how you want, dress how you want, marry who you want,

01:29:45.080 if you want, if you're over the age of 18. I agree. But you are not free to indoctrinate

01:29:50.140 children in schools who are not yet of the age of consent. You are not free, just as you're a 17

01:29:56.100 year old or a 15 year old can't get a tattoo on their own. I don't think that you should be able to go

01:30:00.980 or until the age of 18. Do we agree on the fact that adults should be able to live freely while

01:30:08.420 still treating children differently? If so, we're on the same side of this issue. I agree with the

01:30:13.440 majority of what you said. However, I don't think that you're understanding the, um,

01:30:19.660 the implications of the laws that are trying to be passed. My only ask is forget the personal

01:30:27.280 attacks or the stylistic attacks, focus on substance. The more we debate that, the stronger

01:30:31.480 we're going to be as a country. So I don't know what platform it was that, that censored your use

01:30:40.380 of the term chemical castration, but that's what you had said there that we shouldn't be doing that

01:30:45.300 to, to minors. This plays right into one of the themes of truths, the future of America first,

01:30:50.960 which is there are two genders. Right. And I think that what we see is when we talk about this

01:30:58.420 across the country, most people actually share the same foundational value set on this in comments

01:31:03.440 grounded in hard biological truth. So I sort of unpack a couple of the trans dilemmas that the

01:31:10.120 transgender ideology poses, even for people who may have hard convictions and where they think

01:31:15.020 their beliefs are. So there's two X chromosomes. You're a woman X and a Y you're a man. But one

01:31:19.360 of the mysteries here is it is the same LGBTQ plus ideology that says the sex of the person you're

01:31:26.240 attracted to is hardwired on the day you're born that now says your own biological sex is totally

01:31:31.700 fluid over the course of your life. That's a paradox. It's a further paradox that actually there is no gay

01:31:37.320 gene, but there are two sex chromosomes. So that's actually particularly an ironic case to say that the one

01:31:42.880 that has no gene is the one that's fixed immutably at birth. But the one that has definitive chromosomes

01:31:47.600 is the one that's totally fluid over the course of your life. There's other contradictions we explore

01:31:52.280 as well, which is the fact that on one hand, if you say that this is a disability or a mental health

01:31:57.060 disorder, you're considered to be transphobic. That if a kid says that their gender doesn't match

01:32:01.560 their biological sex, that that is an evidence of a mental health disorder. That's my belief.

01:32:06.560 But to say that many people will label that transphobic at the same time that they will say it is

01:32:10.680 transphobic not to have public health insurance pay for gender affirming care or actual gender

01:32:17.240 conversion surgery because it qualifies under the Americans with Disabilities Act. So I try to go

01:32:22.380 factually through the chapter in arming people at home with at least these hard facts to be able

01:32:28.400 to have the open arguments at the dinner table that they're not having in public.

01:32:32.080 And one of the things I did in that chapter, Megan, is I closed it out with a personal story from the

01:32:36.880 campaign that I hadn't shared before, which is actually one instance where there was a one of

01:32:42.140 the embeds, one of the media embeds, or the press embeds on our following our presidential campaign.

01:32:48.380 She would challenge me on this issue repeatedly in front of the camera. But one of the conversations

01:32:52.780 we ended up having was actually off camera, but I could tell that it was really meaningful issue to

01:32:57.700 her. Turns out she identified as non binary. So I don't know if she would even object to me

01:33:02.420 referring to her as she. I thought she was a woman. And, you know, she ended up it was a deeply personal

01:33:07.400 conversation that we had where I actually got to understand from her own experience, when did she

01:33:12.440 believe that she was of one gender versus the other, what that struggle was like, a little bit

01:33:17.980 about her family upbringing, some challenges she had overcome, turned out to be one of the hardest

01:33:21.520 working press embeds in our own press corps that was following us. Somebody I thought actually did a

01:33:26.740 great and did her best to do an objective job. I talk a little bit in that chapter of how we

01:33:31.360 actually built a great personal relationship and bond over the course of the campaign,

01:33:36.100 even though we disagree deeply on my own views or her views on the trans debate and what that means

01:33:43.400 for policy. And I think that that's also one of the paths to unite the country, which is even on

01:33:49.500 issues like this, I'm not going to compromise on standing for what I believe is true. Okay, standing

01:33:54.800 for truth. But that still gives us the opportunity to build relationships with other people by saying

01:34:00.600 that, you know what, we're not going to build our relationship based on settling our difference

01:34:03.980 of opinion on this question, but we can build a relationship based on still agreeing or even

01:34:09.540 engaging on matters outside of this particular debate, which we otherwise decided was an

01:34:15.240 irreconcilable difference. So that was one of my takeaways from the campaign and she remains a

01:34:19.000 personal friend.

01:34:19.460 Well, let's, let's get real. The most, most of the trans community activists will not even speak to

01:34:27.740 somebody like you because their position is you're trying to eliminate them as humans that you don't

01:34:35.640 recognize quote, their right to exist. And they don't. And that's because you won't stand behind

01:34:43.220 the transing of kids in the medical community, minors who can't consent to these procedures. You won't

01:34:48.800 consent to having this ideology thrust upon them in third grade as was done to my two sons. Uh, first,

01:34:56.740 the older, um, at our old school, like that's where the rubber really hits the road because that's where

01:35:03.100 we're really going to have to fight.

01:35:04.960 It does. And, and, and I think the reality is that goes for trans activists, which is a tiny minority of

01:35:11.900 a tiny overall minority. But what's happening in the country is we're not really suffering from a tyranny of

01:35:17.580 the majority in the United States. We are suffering from a tyranny of the fringe minority. And the

01:35:23.820 dilemma is our constitution and our Republic and the safeguards and the guardrails we have built into

01:35:28.120 our legal system are really good at protecting against a democratic tyranny of the majority.

01:35:32.940 There's nothing really there to safeguard against a cultural tyranny of the fringe minority. That's

01:35:37.180 actually up to us. And, you know, one of the things I've learned, Megan, is that there's two

01:35:41.740 approaches. I learned this over the course of my presidential campaign and observing, you know,

01:35:46.140 other players in that arena as well, is that sometimes what happens is that you have two levers you could

01:35:51.780 pull. Okay. One is going to have one country in the end. You're either going to compromise on core principle

01:35:55.940 and policy, or you can actually take a more compromising approach on style without actually being

01:36:01.580 compromising on principle or policy. One of the things I've found is sometimes when we fall into the trap of

01:36:06.800 actually going guns blazing on style, when push comes to shove, look at the Republican

01:36:12.500 politicians in the end, many of them do actually end up compromising on policy or principle in the end.

01:36:18.780 One of the things I'm trying to do both with this book and the way in which we're going to college

01:36:22.380 campuses, like the one you aired before across the country is to be able to engage in an affable

01:36:29.060 manner with people who deeply disagree with us, but without compromising at all on the core principle

01:36:35.380 of standing for objective truth. So my goal here is not to arrive at a compromised position that,

01:36:40.940 okay, well, maybe we're going to be okay with chemical intervention by the age of 15, but not

01:36:45.600 with, with surgical intervention at the age of 12. And we call that a day. No, I don't think at the

01:36:50.360 until you're of the full age of consent, I don't think you should be able to undergo genital mutilation

01:36:54.780 or chemical castration. And I'm able to say those words here. Hopefully somebody isn't silencing them

01:36:59.460 out like that other tech platform did as we speak right now. So I'm not going to compromise on the core

01:37:03.900 views that I hold. And I think part of what I try to do in this book is to arm people with hard facts

01:37:09.440 to be able to stay true to that. But at the same time, to remember that we're being strong enough

01:37:14.520 to protect our kindness. And we do care about kids who may be confused, who are going through a

01:37:20.260 difficult period in their time, in their life, where they may go through all kinds of psychological

01:37:24.480 struggles, including the fact that they lose track of what they believe their gender is. That's a symptom

01:37:30.120 of a deeper psychological issue that we have to have the compassion to also address. And so one of the

01:37:35.900 things I just think we're going to be more successful if we're able to show the country

01:37:40.100 that, yes, it is our inner kindness that we're fighting for, but we're not going to give an inch

01:37:44.540 on truth or our core principles in getting there. I actually think we're going to have to make fewer

01:37:49.380 compromises if we're able to stylistically reach people in a way that we otherwise aren't maybe doing

01:37:56.360 the best possible job of. And that, too, is one of the things that I'm hoping to arm people with

01:38:00.720 through this book is hard facts and arguments, but to be able to deliver them in a way that actually

01:38:07.040 might make somebody take their earplugs out and to be able to just reach not just the people who agree

01:38:12.220 with us, but especially the people who don't or think they don't using our style as a way of opening

01:38:18.640 it up rather than compromising on actual policies. That is definitely you these days. But I have to say,

01:38:26.760 I see Trump, Bannon, and even myself more as the front line next to Braveheart in that movie,

01:38:38.580 you know, with shields in front and forward, because there's really no talking to the people

01:38:46.220 who have changed the laws on this. And it's not just the trans activists. It's the lawmakers who bend

01:38:51.580 the knee and people who feel like their whatever tax situation, their ability to hire illegals,

01:38:59.560 whatever it is, is more important to them than what's happening to our children as a result of

01:39:03.960 an open border, than what's happening to our children as a result of backing this ideology

01:39:07.580 as though it's something. And those people must be defeated, defeated, not reasoned with. Am I wrong?

01:39:14.640 Yeah, of course. But I think that's a that is a it's an and. And I think the reality is,

01:39:20.360 if our process of defeating them causes us to actually miss the opportunity of bringing along,

01:39:26.520 I think, the vast legions on the other side who aren't really against us, but are lost,

01:39:30.560 then I think we also still lose the broader war of the country that we actually care to save and

01:39:35.640 revive. The other thing I have seen, Megan, and I think this is worth calling out,

01:39:39.080 is that oftentimes when we do show up guns blazing, what happens in the end? Let's play

01:39:44.880 that forward. We actually do end up compromising quite a bit on policy when push comes to shove.

01:39:50.200 And so I'm proposing a different tradeoff here. And this also the book is called Truth,

01:39:54.920 The Future of America First. I think this, too, is part of the importance of the future of America

01:39:59.360 first is I don't care about the appearance of appearing pugilistic. I care about achieving the

01:40:04.980 actual goal in an uncompromising way. So if you gave me the choice, I'm not saying

01:40:08.980 there always has to be this choice. Yes. But I do think there's a time to, you know,

01:40:14.760 there's a time to fire people on the importance, right. And on the importance of the issues

01:40:20.220 and sometimes expressing your outrage over what's being done to our children,

01:40:26.380 you know, the castration of them and so on also can be effective. So I like, I think you need all

01:40:31.100 different kinds of players in the movement and each has their own role. I've seen you be the other role.

01:40:36.960 I was there. I mean, the second debate in the Republican primary, you were much more feisty

01:40:41.960 and this one and everybody bought and paid for. And then I've seen you sort of change into somebody

01:40:48.360 who talks more the way you're talking today. And I, I see it. It works for you.

01:40:52.400 Well, I think we need it. You need all keys. You need the full, you need the full,

01:40:56.340 you know, I think we need leaders who can fight. We need leaders who can fight hard,

01:41:00.260 unsparingly when necessary. One of the things I learned over the course of my campaign,

01:41:04.440 Megan, a lot of people who even worked for me or my companies in the past, colleagues,

01:41:08.800 close friends. One of the things that they said they were disappointed about through the process

01:41:13.000 and it landed with me is that they know I'm a fighter and I'm a competitor. And that's what

01:41:17.640 the American people also got to see last year for me and through the debates and through much of the

01:41:21.220 campaign. But there's also an element of me that's in addition to being a fighter, somebody who

01:41:26.760 remembers what I'm actually fighting for strong enough to protect your kindness. And I think that

01:41:31.120 we need leaders who actually can turn on both modes when the right time calls for it. And that's one

01:41:38.000 of the things that I learned from the campaign, but also one of the things that I'm trying to do

01:41:41.280 through this book is you won't see me at the end of a, at the end of a hard fight, compromise on

01:41:47.000 principle or policy in the end. And I think Republicans do it too much. But one of the things I've learned

01:41:51.420 is we actually buy ourselves the latitude to hold the line when we're able to use multiple different

01:41:56.500 modes of persuasion to get there. So that's one of the things I'm hoping to do through this book and

01:42:00.580 in the future of hopefully doing my part to help save the country. All right. The book is called

01:42:06.180 Truths, the Future of America First. Vivek, thank you so much for being here. Good to see you.

01:42:11.940 Thank you, Maggie. Good talking to you as always. I want to tell the audience that we're off tomorrow.

01:42:16.660 I have a personal matter to tend to, but we'll be back on Wednesday with Nicole Shanahan,

01:42:22.740 the now former running mate of RFKJ, making her very first appearance ever on this show.

01:42:28.260 Really looking forward to speaking with her and we'll talk to you then.

01:42:34.220 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:42:46.660 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - September 23, 2024

Political Realignment Favors Trump, and Truth About Democratic Party Machine, with Batya Ungar-Sargon and Vivek Ramaswamy ｜ Ep. 896

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