The Megyn Kelly Show - Power of Trump 2.0, Why Elon and DOGE are Working, and Independent Media's Impact, with Jason Calacanis and Chamath Palihapitiya of All-In

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00:01:01.420 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:03.260 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:13.060 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.820 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:16.260 Happy Valentine's Day and happy Friday.

00:01:20.180 And nothing says love like inviting on your show

00:01:22.900 one of your frenemies.

00:01:24.500 No, he's not a friend.

00:01:25.340 I'm just kidding.

00:01:25.940 Um, but you guys may remember Jason Calacanis of the All In Podcast, uh, and I have a kind

00:01:34.360 of special relationship.

00:01:35.420 It goes all the way back to his first and only appearance on our show.

00:01:38.400 That was about almost, what, three years ago?

00:01:41.080 June of 2022, episode 337, when I ended up calling him a prick.

00:01:47.720 That's, that's not nice, but our relationship has really evolved.

00:01:51.560 I actually really like him.

00:01:52.880 And, um, we, I think we've put our differences in the past, though.

00:01:56.840 We'll find out today, uh, including spending some time together at the All In Summit last

00:02:01.880 September.

00:02:03.300 Um, I'll just give you a little, like, memory lane before we bring him on, along with his

00:02:09.180 co-host Chamath, because you may remember this funny exchange.

00:02:12.880 It got a lot of attention.

00:02:14.780 Here's the longer one when he was on the show three years ago.

00:02:18.320 What I'm trying to dispute is the attempt to now say we've got to get guns because of

00:02:23.580 all the mass shootings, the mass shootings are what justify our newfound push on, quote,

00:02:29.100 gun control.

00:02:30.040 And what it is to me is a dodge on the rising crime rates, which have been a drag on the

00:02:35.100 Democratic ticket and are going to take them down come the midterm elections in October.

00:02:39.040 It's gaslighting.

00:02:39.960 So how many people do need to die in a mass shooting for it to be?

00:02:42.700 Why don't you answer my question since you're here as the guest?

00:02:45.020 What was the question?

00:02:45.680 Was there a question?

00:02:46.840 Yeah.

00:02:47.380 I think you're conflating a lot of different issues in a very partisan way to get ratings.

00:02:53.960 That's bullshit.

00:02:54.800 Don't question my motives.

00:02:56.060 This is where you turn into sort of an asshole.

00:02:58.260 That's what I said.

00:02:59.080 That's what I think.

00:02:59.760 What you said that there's an issue.

00:03:00.780 I'm giving you my honest analysis.

00:03:02.240 And for you to say that I am misleading the audience for ratings is a prick thing to say.

00:03:06.320 You don't know me.

00:03:07.440 All right.

00:03:07.800 I've made my name and I've made my business based on honest journalism.

00:03:11.340 I realize you may be number 26 worldwide, but you've never done real journalism at the

00:03:15.740 level I have.

00:03:17.780 So that's how our first meeting went.

00:03:21.960 That's just good fun.

00:03:23.580 And then he was gracious enough to have me at the All In Summit along with Chamath and

00:03:30.040 of course, David Sachs, who was the other person in that.

00:03:32.540 If you're watching on YouTube, you'll see who's part of that show as well.

00:03:35.580 And now he's working for the Trump administration.

00:03:37.860 David is.

00:03:38.500 But in any event, those guys all had me out to the All In Summit last September, which

00:03:42.300 was really fun and enlightening.

00:03:45.460 The guests were amazing.

00:03:46.960 I really enjoyed myself.

00:03:48.460 And Jason got a lot of guff for the exchange I'm about to show you.

00:03:52.460 But I saw it very differently.

00:03:53.900 I did not think he deserved all the guff he got because he knew I was a lawyer.

00:04:01.740 He knew that I knew what I was talking about.

00:04:04.200 I think he was being a generous host.

00:04:06.360 I think he was trying to let me show some of my knowledge on this case.

00:04:12.120 And people were like, he's an idiot.

00:04:13.540 People on the right didn't like him.

00:04:15.240 But I think they misunderstood that he was actually being generous to me.

00:04:18.780 Here is the exchange that literally went everywhere.

00:04:21.980 We look at the five cases six months from now, a year from now.

00:04:25.080 Let's assume all five of them go to trial.

00:04:27.260 He's guilty of three so far.

00:04:29.060 Wait, what do you mean he's guilty of three so far?

00:04:31.060 What are you talking about?

00:04:31.260 He's been convicted of three.

00:04:32.080 Sorry.

00:04:32.340 What do you mean?

00:04:32.680 No, he hasn't.

00:04:34.000 I love this.

00:04:35.840 No, E. Jean Carroll was guilty.

00:04:38.240 That was not a conviction.

00:04:39.340 That was a civil case.

00:04:40.420 Well, yeah.

00:04:41.000 So that's what I'm talking about.

00:04:42.000 Okay, but there's a big difference.

00:04:43.360 Yeah.

00:04:43.540 And the Trump organization, they're guilty there.

00:04:46.020 Again, it was civil, liable, liable.

00:04:48.360 Yes, of course.

00:04:49.120 But these are the cases we're talking about.

00:04:51.140 And then the third one.

00:04:52.340 You don't see the lawyer, right?

00:04:53.300 Yeah.

00:04:53.480 You said three convictions.

00:04:54.900 Now you're walking it back.

00:04:56.180 I'm not walking it back.

00:04:57.140 There's three in which he was-

00:04:58.200 You should walk it back.

00:04:59.460 I'm so glad Megan is here to dispel this.

00:05:01.620 Of the five, three of them, he's either guilty or-

00:05:04.080 He got a bad result.

00:05:05.240 Yeah, got a bad result.

00:05:06.460 There are two more.

00:05:07.660 If he is found guilty of those two more, will you chalk all five up in your mind to five different

00:05:13.280 jurisdictions, five different prosecutors, five different juries and or judges all conspiring

00:05:19.020 to get him?

00:05:21.120 100%.

00:05:21.560 Okay.

00:05:21.840 All right.

00:05:23.280 And then I went on to list why.

00:05:24.520 And that went to a lot of places on the internet.

00:05:27.500 But here's the interesting thing.

00:05:29.020 My impression is, and we're going to ask him in two seconds, that Jason has gone full-on MAGA.

00:05:35.300 I mean, he is like ready to move in with Steve Bannon.

00:05:38.860 They seem very tight.

00:05:41.520 No, he just seems very pro-Trump.

00:05:44.080 And it's been an evolution.

00:05:45.160 You know, it's been an evolution for me too.

00:05:47.260 It's been an evolution for a lot of people.

00:05:48.800 But that's perfect because his bestie, David Sachs, is now the crypto czar in the Trump

00:05:53.540 administration.

00:05:54.540 So joining me today for the very first time, well, second time since all of that is Jason.

00:05:59.460 And then also for the first time is Jason's co-host on the hit tech podcast, All In, Chamath

00:06:06.620 Polly Hepatia.

00:06:08.300 First time here.

00:06:09.180 Chamath is one of those evil billionaires the Democrats are always warning us about.

00:06:12.440 But he's a self-made billionaire, having started his career out many years ago at Burger King,

00:06:18.580 which we are told is a good thing that you were supposed to celebrate unless you actually

00:06:22.320 do parlay it into true billionaireship, in which case you're bad.

00:06:27.840 In addition to All In, Chamath is CEO of Social Capital.

00:06:32.380 Jason is general partner at Launch.

00:06:35.040 We continue to face uncertainty when it comes to the economy, with a perfect storm brewing

00:06:39.840 as Social Security and Medicare hit a breaking point, as the largest generation is, of course,

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00:06:45.660 A smaller workforce means a smaller tax base.

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00:07:41.900 Guys, welcome to the show.

00:07:43.540 Aw, thanks for having us, Megan.

00:07:45.040 Look at this walk-through memory lane and you inviting me on Valentine's Day.

00:07:50.080 Hey, stop.

00:07:50.900 It's too much.

00:07:52.380 Stop.

00:07:53.260 I mean, it's so great to be here.

00:07:55.240 Well, the good news is, you know, you said we were 27.

00:07:58.560 Now we're top 10 right up there with you, Megan.

00:08:01.140 Right up there in the top 10 of the ratings with you.

00:08:04.360 And, you know, I think that Trump, just to get right to it, you know, great respect for

00:08:11.940 you as a broadcaster, obviously.

00:08:13.140 And I love having challenging conversations.

00:08:15.940 The Trump lawfare one was a great one.

00:08:18.360 And I think, you know, if we look at Trump 2.0 versus Trump 1.0, it's pretty clear he's

00:08:25.720 put a different group of people around him.

00:08:27.300 And you evoke the name Steve Bannon.

00:08:30.660 You know, like comparing the team he has now to that team, those guys were kind of losers,

00:08:36.460 I'll be totally honest, and xenophobic.

00:08:38.380 And I don't agree with a lot of the Trump 1.0 agenda, but if the Trump 2.0 agenda is

00:08:42.940 let's have less government, balance the budget, free speech, and stop wars, I'm here for it.

00:08:48.060 So Trump has evolved massively.

00:08:50.180 His positions are completely different this time around.

00:08:53.400 And I always want to support the president, whoever wins.

00:08:56.420 I'm not a partisan guy.

00:08:57.360 I'm actually an independent.

00:08:58.580 I voted Republican about a third of the time in my life and Democratic two thirds.

00:09:03.900 And so I am a big fan of supporting our president, whoever it is.

00:09:08.380 As best you can.

00:09:10.380 And then assessing what they're actually doing.

00:09:13.980 I don't think we should deport 20 million people.

00:09:15.920 I do think we should deport the 500,000 who are like hardened criminals.

00:09:19.860 And so there's nuance to all these issues.

00:09:21.460 And I'm really excited to be here, especially with Chamath, to discuss the nuance in a lot

00:09:27.060 of these positions.

00:09:28.180 Megan, I just dropped my kids off.

00:09:30.860 Wait, wait, before I get to you, Chamath, who is a loser in Trump 2.1?

00:09:34.800 1.0 or 2.0?

00:09:36.220 In 1.0, sorry.

00:09:37.980 Yeah.

00:09:38.440 You know, I think the xenophobic people I disagree with a ton.

00:09:42.700 Who's that?

00:09:42.940 When I see-

00:09:43.920 Well, Steve Miller says stuff like America is for Americans and Americans only.

00:09:48.980 I think that kind of rhetoric-

00:09:50.880 You know he's back.

00:09:51.820 He's running policy for Trump now.

00:09:53.300 I do.

00:09:53.920 I do.

00:09:54.380 Yeah.

00:09:54.580 He's the one I disagree with.

00:09:56.080 And I know Steve-

00:09:56.660 His big thing is the border.

00:09:57.960 And you know, border crossings are down between 90 and 95%.

00:10:01.540 Sure.

00:10:02.640 So again, like we get into the nuance.

00:10:04.880 I think all Americans, like 80, 90% are in favor of closing the border and having an

00:10:10.160 orderly immigration process.

00:10:11.820 But I think this country was actually built by immigrants for immigrants.

00:10:16.860 And so when Steve Miller says something like xenophobic, like, oh, America's only for Americans,

00:10:22.640 Americans only, he's pulling up the ladder.

00:10:24.420 We should actually, Megan, be recruiting the smartest people in the world to come to this

00:10:29.860 country.

00:10:30.180 And that's really at the heart of this Trump 1.0 MAGA OGs versus the techies.

00:10:38.060 And you saw J.D. Vance sort of tackling this head on on Twitter this week.

00:10:42.060 I think the soul of MAGA is probably being debated.

00:10:47.440 Should we, do you believe, we should drag the other 19 million hardworking immigrants in

00:10:53.460 this country out of the country?

00:10:54.860 You think the nannies, the dishwashers, the people who've been here for 20 years and built

00:10:58.760 to life, you think all 20 million should be dragged out of the country?

00:11:02.220 Yeah.

00:11:02.620 And that has majority support amongst the American people.

00:11:05.060 I mean, I'll say this, Stephen Miller has been so demonized by the left and he is absolutely

00:11:10.120 brilliant.

00:11:11.420 The last thing you can get away with is calling that guy a loser.

00:11:13.500 He's gotten, helped get Trump elected twice.

00:11:16.380 And he's behind not just the immigration policy, but he was in part behind the brilliant EO on

00:11:22.160 gender and biological sex.

00:11:24.440 Stephen Miller is extremely smart.

00:11:26.480 Well, I was referring to Bannon as the loser for the first time.

00:11:28.880 And those gifts are being unleashed on our behalf right now.

00:11:30.940 So, okay.

00:11:31.520 Sorry to make you wait so long, Jermoth.

00:11:32.720 Welcome to the program.

00:11:34.180 Hold on.

00:11:34.640 Stand by.

00:11:35.160 It's not just you and me.

00:11:36.140 We want to get it.

00:11:36.800 Take it easy.

00:11:38.100 Take it easy.

00:11:39.000 Take it easy.

00:11:39.560 Would you just relax?

00:11:40.660 Just relax.

00:11:41.300 Sorry, Megan.

00:11:41.940 Sorry, Megan.

00:11:43.520 Jermoth, happy Valentine's Day.

00:11:45.880 Thank you.

00:11:46.400 How are you feeling about the show so far?

00:11:48.000 You know, this is incredible because Jason never gets to talk this much on our own podcast.

00:11:53.460 So I understand now why he's just frothing at the mouth.

00:11:56.620 But I was going to tell you a little story, which is I dropped my kids off today, my wife

00:12:02.200 and I, and it reminds me that in grade school, you know how you used to treat the person you

00:12:06.720 had a secret crush on the worst?

00:12:08.820 That's Jason's relationship with DJT.

00:12:11.300 So I just think that at some point what's happened is Jason has finally realized that

00:12:15.560 he's actually secretly, he admires him so much and now he doesn't know what to do.

00:12:20.160 So now he's just going for it because now he's got cover where most people with a rational

00:12:24.500 brain have said, oh, give this guy a chance.

00:12:26.820 So that's really what's happening.

00:12:27.840 We have some of that actually.

00:12:29.300 Just to make your point, I think this is a bit of his evolution that we've captured

00:12:33.680 in the following soundbite.

00:12:35.600 Let's take a listen to sound three.

00:12:37.480 Here we go.

00:12:38.000 It is all about me.

00:12:38.600 All right, everybody.

00:12:39.160 Welcome back to the All In podcast.

00:12:41.500 The number one, MAGA.

00:12:43.580 I was a never-Trumper and now I'm rooting for him wholeheartedly to do great work.

00:12:49.080 I will say publicans are fun.

00:12:51.500 Fashion was off the hook.

00:12:52.540 And all credit to Trump for winning and running an incredible campaign.

00:12:56.120 I mean, just they crushed it as somebody who was a never-Trumper, as you all know, in

00:13:01.060 the audience.

00:13:02.120 And now somebody who is supporting him relentlessly.

00:13:04.380 He's also done an incredible job with the border.

00:13:08.400 2025's biggest political winner.

00:13:09.900 I said Gen X and the elder millennials.

00:13:13.660 You got Elon with Doge.

00:13:14.920 You got Sachs, obviously.

00:13:16.320 Marco Rubio.

00:13:17.820 My God, it just goes down.

00:13:18.860 And then if you look at the elder millennials, J.D.

00:13:20.800 Vance, Vivek, Tulsi, just a lot of young people.

00:13:24.800 And this is going to be absolutely fantastic, I think.

00:13:28.800 Chamath, he's been red-pilled.

00:13:31.080 He's spent all his time with you guys.

00:13:32.980 Purple.

00:13:33.480 Full red pill.

00:13:34.640 Well, you know, you said something really important at the beginning, which is you used

00:13:39.200 the word MAGA 2.0.

00:13:41.000 And I actually think that that's the right observation.

00:13:45.080 MAGA 2.0 is a very different coalition than MAGA 1.0, which explains, I think, why they did

00:13:52.140 so well at the polls.

00:13:53.120 And the way that I describe it in my own framework is MAGA 2.0 are the working and middle-class

00:14:01.580 people that are asset light.

00:14:03.140 And I think that that is important, meaning there's a lot of people that aren't getting

00:14:08.200 stock options, that don't work at a startup, that don't necessarily own a home and are still

00:14:12.420 renting, that don't have these overflowing 401ks.

00:14:16.140 And that's a lot of where the tension with the American economy and society comes from,

00:14:20.360 right?

00:14:20.520 So I think MAGA speaks to them.

00:14:22.600 I think they now speak to patriotic business owners.

00:14:26.540 And they also were able to get these tech leaders and innovators.

00:14:31.800 That's a really unique coalition.

00:14:34.320 And I think that that is very discombobulating for the Democrats.

00:14:37.620 And I think it explains a little bit why they're on their heels and a little confused and don't

00:14:42.260 exactly know how to react in any moment.

00:14:44.020 But that MAGA 2.0 coalition, if it holds, I think is multi-generationally relevant.

00:14:51.620 Can I ask you, Jason, what you say purple, not red.

00:14:54.480 So what was the red that was mixed in with your former blue that made you purple now?

00:14:59.740 Like what specifically was it that made you start migrating a bit?

00:15:02.620 Yeah, I mean, I've always been a moderate and voted, like I said, maybe living in New York

00:15:09.960 and in California most of my life.

00:15:13.840 You know, I didn't have the opportunity to vote for a Republican that many times, but

00:15:17.260 about one out of three, I voted Republican.

00:15:19.240 And having lived in New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco, you know, you don't have to

00:15:24.160 do too much research to see how far the woke left and these like radical socialist kind of

00:15:32.340 borderline communists in San Francisco, you know, how ineffective they've been at running those

00:15:37.280 cities.

00:15:37.980 Watching New York go from when I grew up in the 70s and 80s being pretty dangerous, then Giuliani

00:15:43.200 and Bloomberg cleaning the place up.

00:15:45.560 And then now, gosh, it's just gone back into chaos every time I go to New York.

00:15:50.240 And I left San Francisco and I live now on a horse ranch here in Texas in Austin.

00:15:54.240 And it's a lovely purple combination, I think, of what I loved about New York, LA, and San

00:16:00.700 Francisco and, you know, this Texas culture, which it feels to me like the pure American

00:16:06.360 culture, which is, you know, it's great to be an entrepreneur.

00:16:10.160 It's great to celebrate entrepreneurship and creation, which is the business I'm in.

00:16:13.600 And I invest in 100 new companies per year, as well as doing four podcasts a week.

00:16:18.420 So I'm kind of like a broadcaster and an angel investor.

00:16:21.380 And I really was disheartened by what I saw happen with the Democratic Party and how they

00:16:27.900 related to entrepreneurs specifically.

00:16:30.360 Myself, Elon, Joe Rogan, Chamath, we're all Democrats or left-leaning, right?

00:16:36.280 We believed in freedom, supporting gay rights, supporting a woman's right to choose, these

00:16:41.540 kind of issues.

00:16:43.280 And then the Democratic Party basically kicked Joe Rogan out.

00:16:47.300 They kicked Elon out.

00:16:48.460 And none of us passed their ridiculous, woke, mind virus test.

00:16:54.100 And I'm for freedom.

00:16:55.520 I'm for freedom of speech.

00:16:56.420 I'm a Second Amendment fan.

00:16:59.940 And that party just went so far left.

00:17:03.140 So I feel like I've always been right here in the middle, fiscally responsible, kind of

00:17:08.200 Clinton Democrat.

00:17:09.220 And then I feel like the Democratic Party just went off the deep end.

00:17:11.920 Like, I'm not down with, you know, giving surgery to children who are confused about their

00:17:19.900 gender.

00:17:20.420 Like, that's crazy.

00:17:22.080 If you ask 90, if you ask 100 parents, 99 would say, are you crazy giving surgery to

00:17:27.700 a child who's confused and has gender dysphoria?

00:17:30.540 That's crazy.

00:17:31.860 And now we're seeing many countries in Europe and, in fact, here in the United States, some

00:17:37.840 states saying, hey, yeah, no more of this.

00:17:39.820 And doctors are being sued.

00:17:41.660 And the detransitioning movement is just heartbreaking.

00:17:44.160 Why wouldn't a child wait till they're 18, 19, 20 years old?

00:17:46.780 So those were kind of the issues that pushed me out of the Democratic Party.

00:17:52.020 And, you know, with Trump and some of the things he does, I don't agree with.

00:17:57.380 But when he put his agenda out for, you know, this term, with the exception, again, we talked

00:18:05.020 about it before, of taking hardworking, non-criminal immigrants out of the country, which I think

00:18:09.580 would cause massive inflation and all kinds of problems for us, and it would be cruel and

00:18:14.200 inhumane, I'm down with less government.

00:18:17.520 I've always been for less government.

00:18:19.080 I've always been for balancing the budget as an individual, as a company, or as a country.

00:18:24.040 And so when he decided he would bring, you know, Elon, who's a close personal friend of

00:18:29.620 mine, and Sachs, close personal friend of mine, and other folks in our circle into this administration

00:18:36.520 to do hard work and important work around supporting entrepreneurs and stopping waste,

00:18:42.180 fraud, and abuse, I mean, that's kind of my wheelhouse.

00:18:45.180 So if Trump's going to evolve, and he's going to stop being Captain Chaos, and he's going

00:18:49.860 to stop putting people like Bannon around him, and he's going to put incredible entrepreneurs

00:18:54.140 and the smartest people I know around him, I have no choice but to support him, right?

00:18:59.760 I don't like some of the things he does stylistically, but I'm not, I don't really care about style

00:19:04.940 points when it comes to the fact that I believe the country is on such an unsustainable path

00:19:11.520 in terms of spending, $36 trillion in debt, adding a trillion or two, and the amount of

00:19:17.060 waste and fraud that's going to come out of Doge.

00:19:19.520 I mean, I've had conversations with Elon.

00:19:21.140 He's been very public about it.

00:19:22.500 He had a presser with Trump in the Oval Office.

00:19:26.060 The stuff that's going to come out is going to be mind-boggling.

00:19:28.780 The amount of grift, the amount of criminal behavior, and obviously waste and waste is

00:19:36.740 just so staggering.

00:19:38.160 And we have to turn this around, Megan.

00:19:40.060 If we don't get this debt under control, it's existential.

00:19:44.020 You know, they have the saying, how did you go bankrupt?

00:19:46.200 Slowly and then all at once.

00:19:48.000 And that's where our country is.

00:19:49.680 We need to stop the waste, fraud, abuse, and spending, and it's going to take collective

00:19:55.060 austerity.

00:19:58.160 But we have no choice.

00:19:59.600 And it's going to take really bold leadership.

00:20:02.080 It's unpopular to cut services.

00:20:04.160 It's unpopular to stop spending.

00:20:06.480 But, you know, Trump's on a free roll right now.

00:20:09.820 He is, by definition, lame duck, right?

00:20:11.940 He's not running again.

00:20:12.880 So I'm here for it.

00:20:13.740 I want to say one word in defense of Steve Bannon, with whom I've had a very interesting

00:20:17.520 past 10 years.

00:20:18.980 Oh, you have.

00:20:20.240 I think Steve Bannon is actually very, very brilliant and was integral to Trump's, especially

00:20:26.420 his first victory.

00:20:27.540 But I think the second victory, too.

00:20:29.040 And I know you may not like him, but I know that he's had quite a hand in staffing up Trump

00:20:34.960 2.0.

00:20:36.400 And he's always there behind the scenes.

00:20:38.080 He's a brilliant strategist.

00:20:39.300 He may not be your cup of tea.

00:20:40.800 He's not everybody's, but he is very important to Trump's success and has been, in my opinion.

00:20:46.620 I want to say this.

00:20:48.380 On the subject of the illegals, it is 59% of the American public approved deporting all

00:20:52.980 of them, not just the criminals.

00:20:54.160 The criminals is way up.

00:20:55.600 That's extremely hard.

00:20:56.360 But just anybody who's here illegally, 59%.

00:21:00.180 I mean, that's huge to have 60% of the country agreeing on an issue like that.

00:21:04.020 So that's why Tom Homan is saying they're all going.

00:21:06.960 Now, realistically, are they all going?

00:21:08.280 No, because it's impossible.

00:21:10.200 We're having a difficult time even finding the ones who have committed felonies on top

00:21:14.280 of being here unlawfully.

00:21:16.220 It's just that's why it was so egregious for Biden to allow them in in the first place.

00:21:21.380 We're just never going to get all these people, even Homan's out this week saying, look, we've

00:21:26.120 gotten a bunch of them, but it's not going as quickly as I'd like it to.

00:21:28.820 And it's very frustrating for all of us.

00:21:30.860 Here's one other thing.

00:21:31.580 Let me ask you about this one, Shemoth.

00:21:32.680 I love the guys over at National Review, and they sometimes offer a sober reality to the

00:21:39.080 joy that I hear more in the MAGA circles.

00:21:43.020 These are conservative Republicans who are not anti-Trump, but they're not super pro-Trumpy.

00:21:48.600 They had a great discussion on their editor's podcast this week about what's actually going

00:21:52.720 to happen to the budget.

00:21:54.180 Trump's going to make these cutbacks, even if Elon's allowed to go wild, which, as you

00:21:58.680 know, they're filing lawsuits every day to try to stop the cuts that he and Trump are

00:22:01.940 doing.

00:22:02.580 But let's just say they withdraw all the lawfare and all the cuts go forward, USAID, Department

00:22:07.580 of Education, and on.

00:22:10.120 Their point was, we're still going to run a deficit.

00:22:14.200 The budget's still going to go up this year versus where it was last year.

00:22:17.680 It just won't be up as much as it otherwise would have been.

00:22:21.300 We're not going to touch entitlement spending.

00:22:22.980 And I got to be honest, you listen, you're like, ah, you know, to Jason's point, slowly

00:22:28.860 and then all of a sudden, we're still going to be on that course.

00:22:33.420 We're in a really difficult spot.

00:22:35.560 So I think it's important for your listeners and viewers to know this.

00:22:40.080 The last couple of years, the Biden administration, and specifically Biden and Yellen, did one thing

00:22:47.540 that I hope no government afterwards ever does, which is they were effectively speculating

00:22:52.400 on rates.

00:22:53.740 And what they did was, you know, the Treasury's job is to finance the government, right?

00:22:58.820 Their job is to go into the bond market, sell bonds, use that money, so and redirect it to

00:23:04.880 HHS, to Social Security, to defense, wherever.

00:23:09.160 However, they financed it with all of this short-term paper, and part of it was they believed that

00:23:16.380 inflation would be in check and interest rates in the future would fall.

00:23:20.300 So whatever happened, we would be able to go back into the markets and borrow later for

00:23:25.100 cheaper.

00:23:26.360 It turned out that was an enormously incorrect assumption, and they should not have made that

00:23:31.720 decision.

00:23:32.720 So today, what Trump and Besant have to do is extremely difficult.

00:23:37.040 They have about $10 trillion, so call it, you know, 25, 30% of our total debt we have

00:23:43.880 to refinance in the next six to nine months.

00:23:46.740 And we're doing it against a backdrop where now inflation is ticking back up and rates

00:23:52.780 are ticking back up.

00:23:53.620 So why is that important?

00:23:55.200 It's important because now all of a sudden, like, what does this budget bill look like and

00:23:59.500 what can we actually accomplish?

00:24:01.040 There's the Senate version, which is super light, and it says, let's just deal with border

00:24:04.880 security and military.

00:24:06.000 And then there's what sort of Trump has asked for, which is the House version, which is

00:24:10.200 this, quote unquote, one big, beautiful bill.

00:24:12.680 The problem is those two things are on a collision course, and the big bill may be a little bit

00:24:18.440 too early in the sense that, to exactly your point, we don't know how bad the situation is.

00:24:23.640 And if Besant goes into the market and gets clubbed over the head, and now all of a sudden

00:24:28.660 we have $10 trillion that we have to borrow at five or five and a half percent, I think

00:24:34.540 it's going to be really bad for the US economy, in which case there will be no choice except

00:24:39.340 to make very deep cuts in a broad-based way.

00:24:43.220 So we almost need to buy some time and figure out how bad this situation is, which is why

00:24:47.620 we need the air cover to sort of see how much Doge uncovers, because that'll make the

00:24:52.140 problem less at the end of the day, right?

00:24:54.280 Because cutting that stuff will mean that's fewer fixed programs we have to cut.

00:24:58.380 So that's kind of where we are.

00:24:59.640 So I think it's in a very—we're in a delicate 60 to 90-day period, I think.

00:25:03.180 He's not only trying to find cuts, but he's having some fun with tariffs, too, which could

00:25:09.220 be another source of income.

00:25:10.620 I mean, Trump announcing yesterday, no one's tariffing us without us tariffing them.

00:25:15.860 I'm using it as a verb, right?

00:25:17.800 Like, you slap 10% tariffs on any goods you sell in the United States, 100% guaranteed.

00:25:23.280 That's what you'll get on your goods coming in here.

00:25:26.340 And that just makes sense to me.

00:25:28.320 I mean, like, that, I think, is a matter of fairness.

00:25:30.480 Most people are like, yeah.

00:25:31.420 And even Trump admitted yesterday there may be some short-term pain.

00:25:35.780 He said there may not be.

00:25:36.780 But they're actually—but he's like, trust me, long term, this is going to work out well

00:25:41.300 for us.

00:25:42.320 How do you guys view the tariff threat and action?

00:25:45.740 There is some short-term wins already.

00:25:48.000 So, you know, he slapped a tariff, I think, on European car imports or whatnot, and they

00:25:53.600 capitulated, and they lowered their import tariff for American cars to match their own.

00:26:00.040 So effectively, it was—he said it was 5x greater, right?

00:26:03.560 So if you tried to take a Ford F-150 into Europe, and now that import tariff is effectively

00:26:08.580 the same as what we charge European cars on the way in.

00:26:11.840 So to your point, there's already been some early wins.

00:26:14.420 And then when you look at, like, Canada and Mexico, the threat of that 20% or 25% tariff

00:26:19.680 essentially caused them to capitulate.

00:26:21.720 So on the one hand, there's trade normalization.

00:26:25.280 On the other hand, it's a negotiating gambit for other things that are more important in

00:26:29.400 the moment, specifically border security and drugs and all of that stuff in the case of

00:26:33.320 Mexico and Canada.

00:26:35.200 But the reality is, like, that revenue source, if you offset it somehow, doesn't really do

00:26:42.180 much to make the problem any better.

00:26:43.860 Meaning, if you get a bunch of money in with tariffs, but then you also cut corporate taxes

00:26:49.060 taxes, or you extend the tax cuts for individuals and make them permanent, the reality is all

00:26:55.080 you're doing is sort of like, you know, taking from Peter to pay Paul.

00:27:00.400 It doesn't make the structural issue any better.

00:27:03.940 And the structural issue is what Jason said, which is, we have a huge debt wall that we

00:27:08.600 are about to hit, and we have to find a permanent way out of it.

00:27:13.420 And I think that's where the president is right, that there's going to be some short-term pain,

00:27:19.160 because I don't see how all of these things actually get to the core structural issue,

00:27:25.220 which is we're just spending too much.

00:27:27.740 Congress is appropriating too much money to things that we can't account for.

00:27:32.220 And the law says, once Congress says go, you can't say no.

00:27:36.840 We have to go back and do this.

00:27:38.040 He wants to make the Trump tax cuts permanent, which I think most Americans will support.

00:27:43.780 Even Joe Biden was saying he would keep the Trump tax cuts in place for those making under

00:27:48.660 $400,000 a year.

00:27:50.600 But he wanted to revoke them for those making over, which honestly is just silly, because

00:27:55.380 those are the business owners.

00:27:56.720 Those are the employers who, you know, I'm an employer.

00:27:59.400 I'm a small business owner.

00:28:00.320 If you tax me more, I'm probably going to get rid of somebody.

00:28:03.860 I'm not just going to pay it to the federal government.

00:28:06.200 Somebody's probably going to go.

00:28:07.120 So that's how it works.

00:28:08.400 But so he's going to make the tax cuts permanent.

00:28:11.620 He's also wanting other tax cuts, as you guys know, no taxes on tips.

00:28:16.040 And, you know, I had a conversation with Senate Majority Leader John Thune earlier this week.

00:28:20.780 I think that's a priority for them to get that no taxes on tips thing.

00:28:24.140 And don't forget on the Trump tax cuts, Trump is calling for a return to the SALT deduction

00:28:28.280 that those of us have in, you know, like New York, Connecticut, which they didn't give us

00:28:32.980 the first time when they cut the taxes because they were like, you're not going to get that

00:28:36.940 too.

00:28:37.380 That's too big a tax cut for you.

00:28:38.840 But then the truth is my taxes went up.

00:28:40.840 My accountant was like, you're actually doing better without these tax cuts.

00:28:43.500 But it's fine.

00:28:44.380 Anyway, my point is there's it sounds good to say tax cuts.

00:28:49.220 And I like it, too.

00:28:50.300 But there's a question about whether we can afford all these tax cuts and no one, no one

00:28:54.780 will talk about Medicare or Social Security, Jason, especially Trump.

00:28:58.040 He's not dumb politically.

00:28:59.000 He knows that's toxic.

00:29:01.000 That's like, let me play in this nuclear waste dump.

00:29:02.980 So fun.

00:29:03.960 Yeah.

00:29:04.240 So this is exactly correct, Megan.

00:29:06.680 You have two ways to cut this massive deficit we have every year and the national debt.

00:29:13.120 You can either increase the amount of money coming in through taxes or you can cut spending.

00:29:18.160 And you've nailed it.

00:29:18.940 There are some big ticket items and Medicare, Social Security and, of course, military spending

00:29:25.000 are the big three.

00:29:26.540 We haven't gotten to those yet.

00:29:27.700 But I think that there will be a moment in time when it will become tenable to talk about

00:29:33.320 these and, you know, maybe just on the margins, rethinking them.

00:29:37.220 If you look at the last 10 years when Biden came into office, you know, we're at 16, 17 trillion

00:29:43.180 in debt.

00:29:43.920 And now we've basically doubled it.

00:29:46.400 Both parties are out of control with their spending.

00:29:48.940 And they've added two trillion a year.

00:29:51.100 It's not sustainable.

00:29:52.680 Everybody knows that it's about to break.

00:29:54.660 And so it's going to take collective across both sides of the aisle looking at not just

00:30:00.840 doge, but military spending.

00:30:02.920 And this is where actually Trump does have a superpower.

00:30:05.440 He's very good at talking to Xi Jinping and Putin and other dictators.

00:30:09.700 You can make whatever joke you want to make there about how they vibe.

00:30:13.440 But what he did with North Korea and going and talking to Kim Jong-un was just spectacular.

00:30:18.960 This idea that you don't talk to dictators is a huge, colossal mistake in foreign policy.

00:30:25.480 And if he can get everybody to start rethinking how much we're spending globally on defense

00:30:31.000 and maybe paring that back a little bit, and then we can talk to Americans about maybe instead of

00:30:35.080 Social Security doing what they do in Australia, which is called superannuation.

00:30:40.120 Annuation.

00:30:40.920 Annuation, rather.

00:30:42.280 Superannuation.

00:30:42.940 Or they just refer to it as supers in that country if you've ever been there.

00:30:46.380 Instead of giving your money to the government and then the government giving it back to

00:30:50.360 you when you retire, you're forced to put a little bit of money, 10%, 12% every year

00:30:56.380 into essentially a directed 401k, but public equities.

00:31:03.220 And if we started moving the country to that, then we could be like Australia eventually where

00:31:09.160 the government's not in the business of providing retirement funds.

00:31:12.700 You do that.

00:31:13.480 You're forced to put money into the markets and then you get the money back as opposed

00:31:18.220 to the government, which is really not great at capital allocation.

00:31:23.080 By the way, did you see what Trump said yesterday, which was incredible on your first point?

00:31:27.160 He said, once we get all of this Middle East stuff sorted out, my next order of business

00:31:31.460 is to sit down with Putin and Xi Jinping and we should figure out, yeah, we should be spending

00:31:37.400 50% less, he said.

00:31:38.800 I was stunned that he said that.

00:31:40.380 I mean, 10% less would be mind-blowing.

00:31:43.000 50% would be in trouble.

00:31:44.240 50% is like, but I love the way he negotiates.

00:31:46.880 I mean, that is his best quality.

00:31:48.880 Is there any world in which the Chinese who have been working so steadily over the past

00:31:53.320 20 years to build up their military actually do that?

00:31:56.280 I just felt like it would be, he would deserve the Nobel Peace Prize if he were to make that

00:32:00.580 happen.

00:32:01.520 They have systematic problems there, Megan.

00:32:04.200 Like they got serious problems.

00:32:05.860 They do, but that military is important to them.

00:32:09.740 The problem is that we have like two versions of the military.

00:32:13.640 We have the old school neocon version, which is still the dominant version on the ground,

00:32:18.720 which is the projection of power, right?

00:32:20.340 How do you project power?

00:32:21.400 You have aircraft carriers and you have these F-35 planes and you have these huge frigates

00:32:27.340 and all of this stuff, right?

00:32:28.420 The Navy just announced a 30-year program.

00:32:32.560 They're going to spend $1.2 trillion.

00:32:34.560 They'll get 365 boats, right?

00:32:38.280 Which is like, okay.

00:32:40.160 But the real version is what Andrel is doing, which is everything is drone warfare.

00:32:45.160 Everything is about AIs.

00:32:46.320 You see it on the ground today in the Ukraine and Russia, which is that's how you fight a

00:32:51.340 modern war.

00:32:52.000 So that costs meaningfully less and it's not necessarily a projection of power as much as

00:32:57.660 it is a projection of capability and skill.

00:33:00.940 So if you take the latter approach, you could easily spend 50% less.

00:33:04.720 The former approach really is about building big iron and big metal.

00:33:08.620 And we all know that's complicated and it takes a long time.

00:33:11.680 So you need a philosophical shift in how people think about geopolitics and the projection

00:33:16.720 of power.

00:33:17.660 This is why-

00:33:18.360 On this front, this is not exactly the same thing,

00:33:21.780 but it's consistent with the new approach that this administration is taking.

00:33:25.080 We have, of course, a new defense secretary and it's not a big deal, but he is every morning

00:33:30.000 out there working out with troops.

00:33:32.680 When he was back stateside, he was doing it.

00:33:34.800 Now he's over in Poland.

00:33:36.260 He's doing it.

00:33:37.100 He posted this video today of him running with troops over in Poland saying, you know, fitness

00:33:42.900 readiness starts in the beginning of the day.

00:33:45.920 There's no, you know, would we have a shot?

00:33:48.020 We'll run it.

00:33:49.760 It's just pictures.

00:33:50.800 Okay.

00:33:51.020 It's just pictures.

00:33:52.360 By the way, he needs pants.

00:33:53.780 It's too cold in Poland to run with just shorts.

00:33:55.720 Running in shorts.

00:33:56.740 He's running in shorts.

00:33:57.460 He's running in shorts.

00:33:58.640 It's snowy and it's Poland.

00:34:00.740 I like it.

00:34:01.240 But in any event, I like it too.

00:34:04.120 I have to say, you know, like Lloyd Austin, with all due respect, was overweight, was in

00:34:10.660 the hospital unaccounted for for like a week.

00:34:13.900 We didn't know what was wrong with him.

00:34:15.180 It's great to see a young, robust defense chief and just a juxtaposition in the messaging now

00:34:23.500 where he's saying that we've had a record sign up and increase in troop numbers in December

00:34:29.200 in anticipation of Trump taking office.

00:34:30.940 And now in January, once Trump has, and he points to specifically, among other things,

00:34:36.920 the difference in recruiting efforts.

00:34:39.020 Like, look at the ad that they just put out for special forces under the Trump DOD.

00:34:43.420 This is an audience that says U.S. Army, this enormous guy lifting enormous weights.

00:34:56.740 Stronger people are harder to kill.

00:34:59.860 Strong people are harder to kill.

00:35:01.720 That seems right.

00:35:02.680 Just to just so you have the full picture.

00:35:04.620 Stand by.

00:35:05.300 Here's what they were running under Joe Biden.

00:35:07.180 Although I had a fairly typical childhood, took ballet, played violin, I also marched for

00:35:15.900 equality.

00:35:17.080 But as graduation approached, I began feeling like I'd been handed so much in life.

00:35:22.180 A sorority girl stereotype.

00:35:24.700 Sure, I'd spent my life around inspiring women.

00:35:27.920 But what had I really achieved on my own?

00:35:30.160 I needed my own adventures.

00:35:32.560 My own challenge.

00:35:33.820 And after meeting with an army recruiter, I found it.

00:35:39.300 A way to prove my inner strength and maybe shatter some stereotypes along the way.

00:35:45.540 Oh my gosh.

00:35:47.160 The difference.

00:35:49.060 Guys.

00:35:50.140 It's crazy.

00:35:50.720 I mean, as men, you must see the difference in messaging and why the numbers are going up.

00:35:56.180 Well, look, I think that it's like there was like this fever and I think it's broken.

00:36:00.220 And the thing is, it should be okay to be able to look at certain job categories and basically

00:36:07.600 say, what is it that we need?

00:36:09.120 So what should firefighters be able to do more than anything else?

00:36:12.280 They should be able to put out fires and everything that that entails.

00:36:15.300 What should a spec ops person be able to do?

00:36:18.580 They should be able to kill with precision.

00:36:21.940 And somehow we lost that where you weren't allowed to say those things anymore.

00:36:25.260 And now I think we're getting back to just the common sense of it all.

00:36:28.560 And there are other jobs, by the way, that should be governed by empathy and compassion.

00:36:32.520 And you should optimize for those.

00:36:33.960 That's like a well-functioning society.

00:36:36.480 And I don't know how we lost that script, but I think we're slowly getting back to that.

00:36:40.580 This is a big omission, Megan, because I don't know if you've ever seen Chamath's thirst

00:36:44.560 trap that he posted on social media, but he has very thin legs.

00:36:47.820 His legs are not capable of carrying.

00:36:50.720 He would not be a great firefighter.

00:36:52.600 Megan, Megan, we can't carry anybody.

00:36:54.120 He would be easy to kill.

00:36:54.920 Is that what you're saying?

00:36:55.900 No, Megan, I'm tall.

00:36:57.080 You know, he's tall, but he's got very thin legs.

00:36:59.520 No, that's not true.

00:37:00.180 That's what robust legs look like when you're 6'2".

00:37:02.240 Show the photo.

00:37:03.240 Cut the photo in.

00:37:04.720 Please go find the photo to my team.

00:37:07.100 We're getting it right now.

00:37:08.240 But the military issue really is that what's going to happen, you know, on future military

00:37:18.740 excursions, we're going to have to go on, we're going to look like the Ukraine.

00:37:22.940 We're going to look like Ukraine.

00:37:23.960 Sorry to put the thought in there.

00:37:26.180 You are going to have drones.

00:37:28.120 And there's a good friend of mine, Palmer Luckey, has a company called Andrel that's doing particularly

00:37:32.740 well in this regard.

00:37:33.560 There's another one, Vantan Systems, V-A-T-N.

00:37:36.300 I'm not an investor or anything, but I had them on my podcast.

00:37:38.820 And they were showing me their underwater drones.

00:37:40.980 You can cut in a video of it.

00:37:42.180 It's really cool, Vantan Systems.

00:37:43.660 They are producing these underwater drones for 75, 85% less than what the military spends

00:37:52.740 now.

00:37:53.440 This is exactly what Elon did for putting, you know, people in space.

00:37:57.220 And he lowered the cost by 90%.

00:37:59.600 Those opportunities exist.

00:38:01.080 And so if we can reimagine the military, we could have more capability, we could be more

00:38:08.360 competitive, and we can do it at literally 50, 60, 70% less if we unleash innovation and

00:38:17.140 entrepreneurship.

00:38:18.120 And this is the thing that pushed me out of the Democratic Party, back to the original

00:38:21.280 question you had for me.

00:38:22.800 We have to support founders.

00:38:24.720 It is very hard to start a company.

00:38:26.640 You suffer.

00:38:27.300 You're doing it now, right?

00:38:28.540 You got to exist in Fox and NBC and take the Lincoln Town cars and have all this stuff.

00:38:34.100 Now you're an entrepreneur, right?

00:38:35.340 You got to be scrappy and you got to fight.

00:38:38.300 The Democratic Party abandoned and shamed entrepreneurs, and they're still doing it.

00:38:44.180 Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are out there every day attacking Elon for doing something

00:38:50.900 he doesn't need to do right now.

00:38:52.640 He's already incredibly wealthy.

00:38:54.540 He's got Tesla.

00:38:55.360 He's got SpaceX to work on.

00:38:56.640 And he's taking a side quest for the American people for four, five, six months.

00:39:02.020 He's moving into the government.

00:39:03.480 This is costing him billions.

00:39:04.160 Yeah, he's moved in.

00:39:05.180 He's living there 24 hours a day.

00:39:05.840 Before I give you the floor on it, Shemoth, here's the thing about Elon.

00:39:08.360 He could have gotten the deregulation that he wants for his industries just by all the

00:39:11.860 donations and the blood, sweat, and treasure he gave to Trump prior to November 5th.

00:39:16.700 Trump owed him enough that he would have probably tried to help Elon roll back some of the

00:39:21.320 red tape he wants rolled back without Elon doing a single thing post 10-5.

00:39:27.280 Everything he's doing now is because he genuinely wants reform.

00:39:31.880 He wants the government to work differently for all of us, not just for him.

00:39:36.040 Go ahead, Shemoth.

00:39:37.260 There is a framework that we talk about.

00:39:39.880 I've talked about it a few times now.

00:39:42.580 I'll just sort of share it with your audience to the extent it's valuable.

00:39:46.580 I think we all want to be and remain the most important country in the world.

00:39:50.680 That should be not really controversial.

00:39:54.600 But the problem is that we have somehow found a way to debate how to get there.

00:40:00.240 And I think how to get there has always been the same and will always be the same, which

00:40:03.700 is America is the best when it has the most vibrant economy in the world and the most capable

00:40:10.200 and powerful military in the world.

00:40:12.020 That's it.

00:40:12.500 And whenever any country has had those two things, if you look back in history thousands

00:40:17.980 of years, they've always been the most important and the most vibrant place, whether it's Rome

00:40:23.200 or whether it's the British Empire.

00:40:25.980 But underneath that is one thing in this modern iteration, which is you must have technical

00:40:32.700 supremacy.

00:40:33.700 You must.

00:40:34.600 If you make the best clothes, it doesn't mean much.

00:40:37.720 You could have a vibrant fashion industry, but it's not going to give you economic vibrancy

00:40:41.620 or military supremacy.

00:40:43.320 If you have great buildings, it doesn't do anything.

00:40:46.900 You need technology supremacy.

00:40:49.780 And this is why what Jason said is so critical.

00:40:52.460 So why is Elon in there?

00:40:54.060 I think part of what he's in there to do is to make sure that by helping to bat back some

00:40:59.600 of these regulations, it's not just him, but there's so many others that hit this air pocket

00:41:04.320 now that can actually do stuff on behalf of Team America.

00:41:08.280 And if you're technically supreme, your economy will be the best.

00:41:12.760 Your military will be the best.

00:41:14.020 By the way, like look at like two days ago, there's a $24 billion program to arm the army

00:41:20.440 with this incredible next generation vision system.

00:41:24.540 Initially, it was given to Microsoft.

00:41:25.980 Microsoft realized they couldn't do it.

00:41:28.520 What did they do?

00:41:29.140 They gave it to a startup, Andrew.

00:41:31.240 Now what happens?

00:41:32.540 That technical supremacy filters in through the economy, gets into our military.

00:41:37.340 Our military will be that much better than everybody else.

00:41:40.120 And that cycle, for whatever reason, was frozen in time for literally 15 years.

00:41:45.720 And this is what we need to undo.

00:41:47.860 And in that 15 years, the biggest mistake we made was we allowed China to catch up.

00:41:52.160 And now they have a level of technical supremacy that rivals ours and in some cases exceeds us.

00:41:59.800 And that was a mistake that we allowed to happen.

00:42:02.940 And we need to correct that.

00:42:03.640 We're in a battle with them on many fronts, including AI, though not so much the Europeans.

00:42:09.100 One of the things that happened this week was J.D. Vance went over to Europe and at a conference

00:42:15.280 that was dedicated to discussing slowing the AI march, he thumbed the middle finger, essentially,

00:42:21.320 and said, we're not slowing anything.

00:42:22.980 We're the United States of America.

00:42:24.520 We're leaders on this and we intend to stay leaders on this.

00:42:27.960 And then he made some other news, which I want to get to with you.

00:42:31.000 But I just want to make one point on the drones.

00:42:33.380 These things can be very threatening, potentially, used by us and potentially used against us.

00:42:38.160 And there was a report out earlier this week on how the Iranian threat against Trump's life was

00:42:43.620 more serious than we knew.

00:42:46.540 And it was to the point where they were deploying decoy Trump planes when, not Air Force One,

00:42:53.940 but Trump Force One, as they used to call his private plane when he was campaigning,

00:42:56.880 to where they'd just have staff on the one plane.

00:43:00.460 And some of these staff would later say, whoa, we were on the decoy plane trying to say,

00:43:06.020 hey, Iran, Trump's here, when he wasn't really there, like, uncool.

00:43:10.540 But they were reporting that, forgive me, I'm trying to remember who broke this.

00:43:13.760 It was a very good report.

00:43:14.980 But it was talking about, it was Axios.

00:43:16.800 Okay, and it was talking about how at one point there was a drone hovering over Trump's vehicle

00:43:22.440 as he was traveling.

00:43:24.100 And the security, Secret Service, opened up the sunroof and shot it, shot it down right then and there.

00:43:30.720 But that's, like, these drones are effective.

00:43:33.940 Well, you know, it's incredible that you say this.

00:43:35.540 Do you know what the largest military company in the world is now?

00:43:39.320 It's DJI.

00:43:40.600 This was a Chinese drone company that people relied on just for drones when drones were this,

00:43:47.280 you know, a consumer pastime.

00:43:49.920 But when it turned the corner, especially in this Ukraine-Russia war,

00:43:54.460 where it became the de facto method of effective attack, they sell parts every which way.

00:44:00.740 Now, I'm not saying DJI is doing anything bad.

00:44:02.780 I don't think they are.

00:44:03.360 They're selling drones.

00:44:05.300 Somehow it gets redirected and finds itself in all these places.

00:44:07.960 But it's an attack vector.

00:44:09.840 And in as much as it's an attack vector, that is now the largest military company in the world.

00:44:13.480 It's China.

00:44:14.320 It's based in China.

00:44:16.740 It's an incredible thing.

00:44:18.680 It's not Lockheed Martin.

00:44:19.900 It's not anybody else.

00:44:20.840 And you know what?

00:44:22.820 There's a lot of scrappy people, Megan, working on this.

00:44:25.320 I read a story in the Wall Street Journal about some University of Toronto students who made a dish that uses acoustics to interfere with the components specifically of DJI drones.

00:44:37.500 It's called Prandtl Dynamics, P-R-A-N-D-T-L Dynamics.

00:44:42.840 So I had them on my podcast.

00:44:44.880 I talked to them a whole bunch about how the technology works.

00:44:48.120 And they were just students.

00:44:49.360 And I said, hey.

00:44:50.000 Terrible name, by the way, to get funded.

00:44:51.500 Terrible name.

00:44:52.100 Anyway.

00:44:52.440 Prandtl?

00:44:54.040 Prandtl.

00:44:55.100 Prandtl.

00:44:55.660 Prandtl.

00:44:55.980 Prandtl.

00:44:56.860 You could just talk.

00:44:57.740 Basically, they knock drones out of the sky.

00:45:00.340 So I talked to them.

00:45:00.960 I checked out the technology.

00:45:01.720 It actually works.

00:45:02.500 So I actually gave them the angel investing money to start this company.

00:45:05.920 Tell them to call it Drone Strike.

00:45:07.800 Drone Strike.

00:45:08.600 Perfect.

00:45:09.120 That would be the new name.

00:45:10.220 Yeah.

00:45:10.440 Drone Strike.

00:45:11.100 So there's all this technology that is coming out.

00:45:14.880 And venture capitalists, Megan, it was very interesting.

00:45:17.660 When I started angel investing 12, 13 years ago, it's just a side thing to support my friends.

00:45:24.700 And at that time, venture capitalists wouldn't invest in military technology.

00:45:29.780 And in fact, at Google, the kind of resistance inside of Google was protesting them, even

00:45:37.200 providing things like Google Docs, like Gmail, to the military.

00:45:42.820 And now that's totally turned around.

00:45:45.260 Silicon Valley is enamored.

00:45:47.460 And investors like myself, Chamath, and others, Sachs, too, we're looking and saying, hey,

00:45:52.420 this is actually the patriotic thing to do.

00:45:56.660 On Trump 2.0...

00:45:58.820 By the way, sorry, just on that, let me tell you a quick story.

00:46:01.420 So I seeded this company about eight or nine years ago to make drones for the sea.

00:46:07.220 It's called Sail Drone.

00:46:07.540 Oh, Sail Drone.

00:46:08.820 Yeah, great company.

00:46:09.580 And Sail Drone now has contracts with the Coast Guard and the Navy and all of this stuff.

00:46:14.420 But these are, as you can imagine, autonomous drones that you can deploy literally from the

00:46:18.720 United States.

00:46:19.680 And it can get to any conflict hotspot.

00:46:22.400 And it has all of the sensor arrays it needs to collect information, send it back, etc.

00:46:27.060 But to your point, Jason, the obvious thing five years ago would have been to add some kind

00:46:32.520 of kinetic ability to those drones, right?

00:46:35.080 Meaning those drones, by the way, one of our drones was famously intercepted by the Iranian

00:46:40.320 Navy, okay?

00:46:42.260 I think in the Strait of Hormuz or someplace.

00:46:45.180 But the reason we weren't able to add that kinetic ability five years ago is because sort

00:46:51.680 of internally, when you're building these things in Berkeley, California, people have

00:46:57.600 an opinion on that this is not cool or the patriotic thing is to actually not make these

00:47:04.580 things happen.

00:47:05.980 And somewhere along the way now, I think we've had a couple of examples, Andrew being the

00:47:09.460 best, where, no, the patriotic thing is to actually make sure Pax America wins.

00:47:13.920 And it's incredible that it took all this time for us to be able to say that without

00:47:18.740 sounding like some right-wing loon.

00:47:22.220 And now we have to play catch-up, which I think is the thing that frustrates me a little

00:47:26.340 bit.

00:47:26.560 It makes me concerned, quite honestly.

00:47:28.440 But if we can get it done, then I think we'll be in a bunch better place.

00:47:32.500 It's happening.

00:47:33.660 All I can think of is my husband's book, The Mysterious Case of Rudolf Diesel, which is

00:47:37.540 about the Elon Musk of the early 20th century, Rudolf Diesel, who was German-born, spent his

00:47:45.120 childhood in France, and was this genius who designed the diesel engine.

00:47:50.180 It was his engine.

00:47:51.340 And diesel should be spelled with a capital D to this day.

00:47:53.680 When you go to the gas station, it's diesel, capital D, fuel for a diesel engine after this

00:47:58.400 guy.

00:47:58.920 But he was a peacenik.

00:48:00.240 He was definitely a peacenik and did not want this engine to be used in war machines.

00:48:06.460 His idea, his goal was for it to be used on small farms who could put just vegetable oil

00:48:10.980 in it, and it can run off vegetable oil.

00:48:12.560 Willie Nelson powered his diesel-powered, I don't know, van or camper with corn oil.

00:48:19.580 And that's really what diesel thought it would be.

00:48:21.000 But it wound up becoming so important to war vehicles, to war boats in particular, both

00:48:28.720 in England and in Germany and then around the world.

00:48:31.220 And there's really not a massive boat on the water that's not powered by diesel now.

00:48:35.660 And Doug has talked many times about how, like, what would diesel think if he could see how

00:48:39.240 his engine wound up getting used as, like, the main machine of war?

00:48:42.700 And I think he believes that diesel would be against it because he never had the evolution,

00:48:47.460 the final stage of the evolution you just talked about, Chamath.

00:48:50.060 A lot of these inventors start off feeling more altruistic, and, you know, they think

00:48:55.440 their product's going to go a different way.

00:48:56.720 But then it takes a while for you to evolve to realizing, even if in a machine of war,

00:49:00.940 it can be an instrument of peace in a way.

00:49:04.220 Yeah, these two wars.

00:49:06.240 Look at the...

00:49:07.440 Sorry, go ahead.

00:49:08.120 No, go ahead.

00:49:08.640 Good.

00:49:09.160 No, what I was going to say is, like, I mean, look at what happened through the Manhattan

00:49:11.920 Project.

00:49:12.480 That started out as a complete project of war.

00:49:14.820 But if you look at the downstream positive impacts of nuclear energy, the body of knowledge

00:49:21.420 that we were able to accumulate, essentially because it was directed through a war effort,

00:49:26.160 whether you agree with that issue or not, take that off the table.

00:49:29.240 But it is undisputable how productive and useful nuclear energy is all around the world,

00:49:34.080 how impactful it can be to actually give people a better life.

00:49:38.420 But it would not have advanced as quickly and as safely had we not gone through those

00:49:43.840 phases of the Manhattan Project.

00:49:45.720 A different example is the Apollo program.

00:49:47.900 You know, we spent, in today's dollars, a quarter of a trillion dollars getting to the

00:49:52.640 moon in the late 1960s and early 70s.

00:49:56.440 That is the basis of everything we touch and feel today when you look at a computer.

00:50:01.300 All of these incredible inventions came out of a government program that was about excellence,

00:50:08.280 in part motivated by beating a competitor of ours in Russia or the Soviet Union at the

00:50:13.120 time.

00:50:13.420 So to your point, sometimes you have to be able to take these inventions and just have

00:50:18.400 a grain of humility and say, you know what, like these things take a meandering path.

00:50:23.280 And as long as you can eventually direct them constructively, you've got a responsibility

00:50:26.880 to do it.

00:50:27.620 But when you get caught up in all of the virtue signaling and this other stuff, I think you

00:50:32.160 can really slow things down.

00:50:33.780 And these things have impacts.

00:50:35.280 I got to give the floor to J. Cal when we come back from this quick break.

00:50:37.800 But before we go, we found the picture.

00:50:40.180 We report.

00:50:41.260 You decide.

00:50:42.320 Let's take a look.

00:50:43.160 Yeah, let's look at this.

00:50:44.300 The top looks great.

00:50:46.640 Zoom in on those legs.

00:50:48.240 Zoom in on those legs.

00:50:49.380 He's not.

00:50:50.400 Guys, I'm six foot two.

00:50:51.040 I know how big you are, Megan.

00:50:53.480 He's not going to be able.

00:50:55.180 She appreciates it.

00:50:55.800 You wouldn't be able to carry Megan out of a burning building.

00:50:58.020 Bro, of course I could.

00:50:58.800 Let me tell you something.

00:51:00.200 I see strong core.

00:51:00.960 That lesbian fire chief in SoCal, she would do a better job.

00:51:04.940 Stop.

00:51:05.420 Look at those legs.

00:51:06.320 She's a large lady.

00:51:07.340 I mean, she's a large lesbian fire chief.

00:51:09.020 All right, stand by.

00:51:09.680 We'll be right back.

00:51:10.000 I mean, she would be able to carry you.

00:51:11.020 We'll be right back.

00:51:12.060 You can email me, Megan at MeganKelley.com.

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00:52:49.240 You mentioned in the first hour a passing reference to this show and your show and

00:52:57.540 my status and yours as well as an independent broadcaster.

00:53:01.260 And that brought something up that I've been meaning to mention this whole week, and now

00:53:04.760 is as good a time as any.

00:53:05.720 So over the weekend, it was announced that Fox News had acquired, has acquired, the company

00:53:14.480 called Red Seat Ventures, which sells our ads.

00:53:18.000 They sell the ads for the Megyn Kelly show, Red Seat Corporation.

00:53:21.580 And Fox acquired this company because they sell ads not just for the Megyn Kelly show,

00:53:26.740 but for the Tucker Carlson show, for Bill O'Reilly show, for now Piers Morgan, who's got a YouTube

00:53:32.740 show and so on.

00:53:33.600 And that's one of the challenges when you get into the space as an independent.

00:53:37.120 You kind of have to partner with some sort of somebody who's got relationships with the

00:53:42.000 ad companies.

00:53:42.740 It's very, very difficult to do it yourself.

00:53:44.460 You can't just start calling up Jenny Cell and saying, hey, will you advertise on the MK

00:53:49.200 show?

00:53:49.700 So Red Seat and this guy who runs it named Chris Balfe, they've been great partners to

00:53:53.480 us.

00:53:53.660 And I love Chris.

00:53:54.340 And he's been absolutely wonderful on his whole team to work with.

00:53:57.980 So they they help us out.

00:53:59.740 They sell our ads.

00:54:00.540 He's been an advisor to me and my professional life as well.

00:54:04.620 So the media decides to take this story and announce or at least spin it such that I have

00:54:12.360 been acquired by Fox News, that the Megyn Kelly show is now owned by Fox, that the Tucker

00:54:18.620 Carlson show is now owned by Fox.

00:54:21.420 They spun it as we're going home.

00:54:25.220 There was one article from Reuters.

00:54:26.340 The deal brings O'Reilly, Kelly and Carlson back into the Murdoch fold through Red Seat

00:54:31.320 Ventures, though Red Seat Ventures will operate independently within Fox's 2B media group.

00:54:36.740 No, it doesn't.

00:54:37.660 It does not bring any of us back into the Murdoch fold.

00:54:40.620 Nothing against the Murdochs.

00:54:41.940 Nothing against Fox.

00:54:42.940 Very happy for Chris and Red Seat and for Fox.

00:54:45.320 But this has almost nothing to do with us other than, I guess, Fox and 2B are now eventually

00:54:52.020 going to well, they own the company or most of it that's selling our ads.

00:54:56.260 That's it.

00:54:57.400 But it was so annoying, you guys, as because I know you've worked for every ounce of that

00:55:01.600 success and for every notch you've moved up on the podcast ranking.

00:55:05.800 And it maybe it would have been helpful.

00:55:08.480 I never offered it and I never wanted it, but probably would have been helpful to have

00:55:11.940 the backing of a company like Fox News pushing me.

00:55:14.980 But I didn't have it and you didn't have it.

00:55:17.180 We earned all those ranks ourselves.

00:55:19.520 For once in my professional life, Fox News had nothing to do with one single viewer I have.

00:55:26.040 Right.

00:55:26.260 So now they're taking credit.

00:55:28.280 Yeah.

00:55:28.800 It was annoying to see this spun everywhere as some sort of an acquisition or a sellout by

00:55:34.840 yours truly or Tucker, who I'm sure would never be selling to Fox, but it makes Fox look

00:55:41.600 good to make it look like they acquired us, which they didn't and whatever.

00:55:44.980 So it's kind of annoying.

00:55:46.000 Anyway, Chris Balfe went on the Semaphore podcast with Ben Smith, formerly of the New York Times

00:55:51.180 and BuzzFeed, and they talked about this.

00:55:54.060 And here's a bit of the exchange that just hit today.

00:55:56.880 One of the most fascinating things, the deal is that you are the platform for three of the

00:56:00.980 biggest stars Fox has ever had, Megyn Kelly, Tucker Carlson, Bill O'Reilly.

00:56:05.160 And Piers had a relationship with Fox, but a little different.

00:56:08.100 And you have this radically different relationship with them, which was when Fox News, when you

00:56:12.400 work for Fox News, you really work for Fox News.

00:56:15.340 You do whatever they say.

00:56:16.640 You do not do things they don't say.

00:56:18.080 They have total control over everything you do.

00:56:20.720 When you work for Red Seat, like Red Seat sort of works for you.

00:56:24.740 It's an inverted relationship in which the talent has a lot of power.

00:56:28.480 Or you, you know, get to work for them to the degree that you're providing like great

00:56:32.700 service for them and great money for them.

00:56:35.180 But it's an inverse relationship where you as the media company just have so much less

00:56:40.620 control.

00:56:41.100 You're kind of an agency for talent.

00:56:44.040 You're exactly right about the characterization of the relationship, right?

00:56:46.920 We work for them.

00:56:47.620 They don't work for us.

00:56:48.640 And, you know, we operate at the pleasure of these hosts.

00:56:51.440 And the minute that they see someone who's doing better for them, who can help them monetize

00:56:56.460 better or grow their show better or whatever it may be that we're doing in each individual

00:56:59.880 case, then they can move.

00:57:02.560 This is the way that this business works.

00:57:04.960 And so if you want to be part of the creator economy, you have to realize that creators

00:57:09.320 are in charge.

00:57:10.780 And it's our job to do as good of a job for them as we possibly can to make sure that they

00:57:16.480 do want to be with us and not somebody else.

00:57:18.040 I can like faintly hear like shrieks coming from Fox News World as you say creators are

00:57:23.560 in charge.

00:57:26.420 It's pretty funny, right?

00:57:27.720 So anyway, just to set the record clear, what he said is exactly right.

00:57:31.140 Red Seat's not a platform for us.

00:57:32.620 You know, Sirius XM is a platform.

00:57:34.440 Apple, Spotify, those are platforms.

00:57:35.920 YouTube, that's a platform.

00:57:37.220 Red Seat's a partner that sells our ads and gives us some information on the podcasting

00:57:41.560 industry.

00:57:42.440 And Balfe personally has been a great friend.

00:57:45.000 It's a service provider, right?

00:57:46.120 The reason why the tradition of media writes that article is that they are hoping that

00:57:51.460 some of these viewers may get turned off by it and stop watching or listening to you.

00:57:55.800 That's the point.

00:57:56.640 They're jealous.

00:57:57.140 That's the point of that.

00:57:58.020 They're jealous and diminishing you.

00:57:59.940 You know, that's what's really happening here is I think independent.

00:58:03.420 It's very rare for somebody to come out of the Fox world and be able to actually start

00:58:08.960 a business.

00:58:09.540 I've been in publishing my whole life and really publishing is three things.

00:58:12.620 You got to have talent, which you clearly have.

00:58:14.720 You have to have distribution, which has now been democratized.

00:58:18.480 You've just given RSS feed to Spotify and to Apple and you're good to go.

00:58:22.900 And then you need to have ad sales.

00:58:24.180 I'm actually shocked that you haven't brought that in-house yet because there is 100 ad

00:58:28.540 sales people who will send their resume to you right now.

00:58:31.340 And your cost of ad sales should be 10 percent or lower if you had an in-house team based

00:58:38.080 on, you know, my knowledge of what you're doing.

00:58:39.940 A whole new future.

00:58:41.000 You're laying out for me here, J. Cal.

00:58:42.560 Keep going.

00:58:43.080 Well, the rep firms tend to take 25 to 40 percent.

00:58:46.880 And that's fine to start out.

00:58:48.200 But for you to be a truly independent media company, you need to control that piece of

00:58:51.960 the puzzle and you can very easily and you will.

00:58:55.400 I guarantee you by next year.

00:58:56.840 And I make millions of dollars a year off this week in startups.

00:59:00.360 All in doesn't have advertising.

00:59:01.780 We probably leave 25, 50 million on the table every year because my co-hosts refuse to let

00:59:07.820 me read the ads.

00:59:09.180 I keep asking them, let me read the ads.

00:59:11.340 You know why, Megan?

00:59:12.600 Private aviation.

00:59:14.080 Private aviation.

00:59:15.160 I could be in a Phenom 300.

00:59:17.740 I could be in a Pilatus PC 24 if Chun Moth would let me read one goddamn ad on the show.

00:59:23.820 Eat the rich.

00:59:24.700 Eat the rich.

00:59:24.920 And this is what is making me crazy.

00:59:27.700 Private aviation.

00:59:29.120 But we make our money through the events we host.

00:59:32.540 And that's a great business.

00:59:33.880 And you were there.

00:59:34.440 Thank you for coming.

00:59:35.960 It was awesome.

00:59:36.380 And our new tequila.

00:59:37.440 And we're going to do all in tequila.

00:59:38.620 And, you know, I got to spend some time with Ben Shapiro when I went to the inauguration,

00:59:43.280 who I have great respect for in his team and what he's built as a business.

00:59:45.340 Are you going to make a point?

00:59:46.160 Are you trying to make a point?

00:59:46.860 I am.

00:59:47.360 And, you know, the other thing that's very interesting is what he's doing with cigars,

00:59:51.820 razors, et cetera.

00:59:53.100 Yeah.

00:59:53.280 They made their own brands.

00:59:54.680 I think, Meg and Kelly, you need, I don't know what you drink.

00:59:58.120 You drink a Sauvignon Blanc.

00:59:59.840 What do you, what is Meg and Kelly drink on the weekends?

01:00:02.120 What's going on tonight on a Friday night?

01:00:03.480 I've actually become a big fan of gin, to tell you the truth.

01:00:04.900 I'm a big fan of gin these days.

01:00:06.220 Oh, a little G&T?

01:00:07.220 Yeah.

01:00:07.440 You G&T?

01:00:08.120 Yeah.

01:00:08.760 Okay.

01:00:09.100 Or like just gin and club soda with a lemon.

01:00:12.620 I actually really like that.

01:00:14.160 I call it the gin haven.

01:00:15.980 All right.

01:00:16.540 Listen, Meg, MK's gin haven.

01:00:19.640 Right now.

01:00:20.200 Let's get a gin company on here.

01:00:21.560 You brand it and put it in cans, bottles, whatever.

01:00:24.420 It's going to make a billion dollars.

01:00:25.880 Let's get Meg and Kelly paid.

01:00:28.080 That's what I'm talking about.

01:00:29.300 We're doing all in.com.

01:00:31.500 But I love, but I love what you guys just said, because that's what was so annoying to

01:00:35.040 me.

01:00:35.140 Like Yahoo, their, their headline Yahoo finance was, um, that, that, uh, they've acquired that

01:00:42.020 I've gone home, that they've acquired my home.

01:00:44.340 Like at red seat, with all due respect, it's not my home.

01:00:47.060 My, my home is my show, my editorial.

01:00:50.540 And I put my home out to a various, you know, degree of, uh, platforms, right?

01:00:55.640 Like to, to you, to, to your success.

01:00:57.240 They hate you because they ain't you, Megan.

01:00:58.980 That's it.

01:00:59.500 They hate you because they ain't you.

01:01:01.000 Just keep doing you.

01:01:01.980 Well, I didn't want people to be confused.

01:01:02.580 I didn't want, like if Fox news, if I did sell out to Fox news, if Fox news owned the

01:01:06.620 Megyn Kelly show, it would change what they were getting at there.

01:01:09.920 And with Ben Smith and Chris Balfe was exactly right.

01:01:12.720 Fox does control everybody who works there.

01:01:16.160 Trust me.

01:01:16.720 I know that's why it's so amazing to be in the independently, right?

01:01:21.160 It's like, you guys say that you can say whatever the hell you want.

01:01:24.900 The, the, the thing that's changed is that the news has become totally commoditized, right?

01:01:30.660 You can basically get the same facts everywhere.

01:01:32.880 And I think what people have sniffed out is that it's people's opinions, especially smart

01:01:37.880 people who are consistent.

01:01:40.100 That's what matters.

01:01:41.360 You're one Tucker's one, you know, on the left, uh, as recline is one, there's people

01:01:46.900 on both sides.

01:01:47.620 But my point is that what people don't care about is if you, for example, you know, wrote

01:01:52.760 an article and the byline said the New York times, you just wouldn't care as much as you

01:01:56.440 used to.

01:01:57.240 And in five years, they'll care even less.

01:01:59.500 And it's the same with Fox.

01:02:00.900 Now, those people for a moment, they had the right to have the business model that they

01:02:06.860 did because, you know, let's take Fox as an example.

01:02:09.580 They literally spent billions of dollars to build the broadcast infrastructure to get in

01:02:14.440 front of people, but that's been undone.

01:02:17.220 And so now I think the next 20 or 30 years will be about people who can be articulate,

01:02:22.880 consistent, interesting.

01:02:25.280 You know, some people will want partisan, some people will want independent, but that sorting

01:02:29.440 function is going on right now.

01:02:30.900 And I think that's where I, the media, I don't want to say that they lie, but I think that

01:02:35.040 they can be, um, their insecurity around this one thing comes through in so many articles.

01:02:41.220 You see it in the Doge articles.

01:02:43.300 You see it in this article about the red seat.

01:02:45.560 You see it everywhere.

01:02:46.700 If you're paying attention for it, which is what they're really expressing is we're not

01:02:50.900 nearly as important as we used to be.

01:02:52.620 And so they have to go to, they have to go to more and more extremes because the relaying

01:02:57.220 of the news doesn't really add that much value.

01:03:00.060 You can go on X and get that in eight seconds.

01:03:02.580 And the control, Megan, this is about control.

01:03:05.660 You know, you and Tucker, supremely talented.

01:03:08.600 They controlled you because they gave you these giant multi-year deals.

01:03:12.400 You guys were at the top of your game.

01:03:14.620 Eight figure deals is extraordinary.

01:03:16.360 You guys top ticked it.

01:03:17.460 As we say in the business, you hit the peak.

01:03:19.180 And it's scary, but, and to be talent and then start from zero again, but you did it

01:03:25.400 and now you control it and now Tucker controls it.

01:03:28.240 But, you know, you can see their top-down control ruins the editorial.

01:03:32.620 You could see it in that Dominion case that Fox had to settle.

01:03:35.340 It matters.

01:03:36.000 They start, yeah.

01:03:37.060 And they, and they start messing with you and they, they, they try to steer you in one

01:03:41.800 direction or the other.

01:03:43.000 It's even more subtle than that.

01:03:44.380 The audience gets it.

01:03:44.820 The audience understands it now.

01:03:46.760 Yeah.

01:03:47.160 And it's more subtle than that.

01:03:48.520 You don't need a $750 million lawsuit to go against you.

01:03:52.700 Now what you have are things like the CBS clip of 60 Minutes.

01:03:57.660 Yes.

01:03:58.280 All of that just subtly chips away at people's trust, right?

01:04:01.940 Now I used to watch 60 Minutes religiously on Sundays.

01:04:05.380 When I was growing up as a kid, I thought, okay, this is where I, you know, watch for an

01:04:09.720 hour and I, and I'm a little bit smarter for it.

01:04:12.000 And now when you see these kinds of things, you think to yourself, what is the point of

01:04:16.680 even watching these clips?

01:04:17.760 And then when you see the clip being distributed, you think to yourself, well, is this yet another

01:04:22.040 moment where CBS cherry picks the editing of something to portray a message?

01:04:25.620 I don't want the cognitive load of having to deal with that and figure it out.

01:04:31.740 I got, you know, I have kids, I have a business, I have a family.

01:04:35.360 I am trying to live my life.

01:04:36.620 Just give it to me straight.

01:04:38.000 And if you're giving me an opinion, I want to know upfront that it's your opinion.

01:04:40.960 But what I don't want is the manipulation.

01:04:43.080 It really is.

01:04:44.780 Over time, you realize who you can trust and who you cannot.

01:04:47.380 And for, you know, for me, it's like, that's, it's fine.

01:04:50.080 You know, I'm happy for Chris, I'm happy for Fox, but it matters who controls this show.

01:04:55.860 And if some were suggesting like they have an ownership, I own 100% of the Megyn Kelly

01:05:00.160 show.

01:05:00.460 I don't have investors.

01:05:01.380 I have nobody.

01:05:02.080 I have me.

01:05:03.200 And, and that's the other thing.

01:05:05.180 Like, they're not wrong.

01:05:06.340 When I worked at Fox, you couldn't say any, if you said anything like to the press,

01:05:10.800 Irina Briganti, that snake would be all over you.

01:05:14.320 They'd be dropping hip pieces on you to try to control you.

01:05:18.120 And I'm delighted to have nothing to do with this person.

01:05:21.900 She, I don't know, you know, what, I don't think Fox has any delusions that they would

01:05:26.020 control me because they sell ads for me in this new context.

01:05:29.640 But it's delightful to be able to not worry about people like that, you know?

01:05:33.860 And, and you guys know, maybe you don't know, cause I, I know you had lean years.

01:05:37.300 We talked about Chamath worked at Burger King when he was a kid, but you know,

01:05:40.800 after Fox and NBC, both of those organizations tried to destroy me, 100% tried to destroy

01:05:46.740 me.

01:05:47.260 And you have those nights in your bed where you're kind of like sad and your, your career

01:05:51.000 is blown up and you're like, Jesus.

01:05:53.740 And bit by bit, then you build it back.

01:05:56.780 And the last thing you want is for somebody to come in and be like, oh, she sold out.

01:06:00.120 She sold out to one of them.

01:06:01.460 Like in the end, she bent the knee and went back.

01:06:03.680 That's not at all what happened.

01:06:04.820 I had nothing to do with this.

01:06:06.140 It wasn't my decision.

01:06:07.020 And when I tweeted that out again, not trying to antagonize Fox, I see why they're smart

01:06:12.420 to have made this move, just setting the record straight.

01:06:15.120 But that's when I tweeted it out, you guys won't be surprised to learn everybody, every

01:06:20.400 one of the people who follows me on Twitter was like, we got your back.

01:06:23.640 We get it.

01:06:24.340 We knew it.

01:06:25.320 We don't worry.

01:06:26.800 It was just, it's just a brand new world.

01:06:28.460 Can I, um, can I make a prediction?

01:06:30.480 It's three, but just three legs of the stool, Megan, you, you have two of them and you got

01:06:34.760 half of one.

01:06:35.620 You got to make that last leg of the stool very strong.

01:06:38.640 I agree with that.

01:06:39.660 Chamath and I, we brainstormed and we built this infrastructure inside of all in so that

01:06:44.460 we never have to bend the knee.

01:06:46.460 And we have the FU money and the FU platform.

01:06:49.280 There's, um, there's a picture.

01:06:51.180 I don't know if Alison, you can find it, but there's a picture of SpaceX's, uh, engines.

01:06:56.600 They're, they're the Raptor engines and they're, they're sitting side by each.

01:07:00.880 Okay.

01:07:01.080 Raptor one, then Raptor version two, then Raptor version three.

01:07:04.680 Um, and I think what's happening in the creator economy is very akin to that picture.

01:07:10.940 Um, which is that if you're going to build something real, and I think the creator economy

01:07:16.720 is real because mainstream media is decaying to build something real takes at least 15 years.

01:07:22.240 There's no shortcuts.

01:07:23.400 There's nothing you can do about it.

01:07:24.560 And what happens is the first version, all it has to do is just kind of work and hang

01:07:30.680 together.

01:07:31.980 And a lot of people will dunk on you.

01:07:34.080 And a lot of people think that you're still kind of, you know, wasting your time or you're

01:07:38.440 working on a pet project or whatever, but you're not because the minute you get that

01:07:42.920 version one working and you've gotten version one working Tucker has Ezra Kelly has kind

01:07:48.540 of, but he should really leave the New York times and do it on his own or as your client.

01:07:51.900 What you are then allowed to do is work on version two and version two is the first version of

01:08:00.220 it.

01:08:00.420 That's like a real thing that can stand alone.

01:08:03.540 And then four or five years later, you get to this version three and that is just excellence.

01:08:08.120 And that's when everybody else goes out of business.

01:08:10.020 And I see this pattern in so many businesses.

01:08:14.180 It's going to happen in this creator economy.

01:08:16.340 So you, Mr. Beast, us, Tucker, you know, we're on version one.

01:08:23.400 It's very rough around the edges.

01:08:25.240 People are figuring it out.

01:08:26.280 We're all going to make mistakes.

01:08:27.880 But that version two is when there's going to be this meaningful downtick in the New York

01:08:32.580 Times, in the Washington Post, in the Wall Street Journal.

01:08:36.180 By the way, like, you know, I said this, I had probably 15 media subscriptions.

01:08:40.580 I'm down to one, which is the Wall Street Journal.

01:08:43.540 And I'm looking for every reason to just dump it.

01:08:47.120 And for me, it's the anxiety of there's probably some financial news that I will miss and I

01:08:53.100 won't really get on X or with the other places.

01:08:56.160 But the minute I feel like I can, I will.

01:08:57.800 Now, version two has to solve a much bigger problem, though, which is in once we're all

01:09:02.340 out there making opinions, the other problem that it will highlight is that the algorithms

01:09:08.400 are brittle and we're going to have to figure out, well, how is our information getting in

01:09:16.020 front of the right people?

01:09:16.860 And how do we make sure that it's not just a bunch of million echo chambers so that we

01:09:21.760 become fragmented?

01:09:23.620 That's not solved because right now we go into a centralized algorithm, right?

01:09:27.440 Everything goes into one version inside of Meta or inside of X or inside of Google.

01:09:33.860 And we're going to, and Jason's talked about this before, which is this idea like there

01:09:36.800 should be a marketplace and a competition for these algorithms as well.

01:09:41.560 That's the next part of fixing the media cycle, you know, because some people may literally

01:09:46.760 want to just stay in a partisan bubble, but some people want the media diet to be balanced.

01:09:51.400 How do you get that?

01:09:52.200 Today, it's impossible.

01:09:52.940 It's funny because I was speaking with a very smart person about YouTube algorithms and this

01:09:58.780 person doesn't work for YouTube, but I was saying, well, how do you, you know, how can

01:10:03.000 the Megyn Kelly show go from three and a half million subscribers to 20 million subscribers?

01:10:07.560 And it later became clear to me that this person was of the left.

01:10:11.480 And of course, his answer was, you have to be more moderate, put on more Democrats, you

01:10:17.880 know, like reach across the aisle.

01:10:20.180 Well, I'm like, okay, how can we do it without me changing my business model?

01:10:24.300 Because I must be honest.

01:10:26.320 And I don't think the secret to my next level success is to populate the show with a bunch

01:10:32.180 of leftists.

01:10:33.420 But I do, I do have a lot of Democrats on the show, but the, the answer is not to change

01:10:37.820 anything about my content.

01:10:39.180 It's to make sure the algorithm picks up the most important thing in media.

01:10:45.300 And I told this to my, to my squad on all in, when I was, you know, in the early days,

01:10:50.460 it was just hard to get these guys to show up every week.

01:10:53.020 And I just sat them all down and I said, guys, the number one way to be successful in media

01:10:58.060 is to show up every day.

01:11:00.160 Consistency.

01:11:00.980 And that's what you have.

01:11:02.660 You are a juggernaut.

01:11:04.640 You show up every day.

01:11:06.060 You're consistent.

01:11:07.080 And I, I subscribe to you.

01:11:08.640 Congratulations on breaking 3 million.

01:11:10.020 That's extraordinary in a short period of time.

01:11:11.720 Um, consistency is the key.

01:11:15.220 And when we started out, you know, some, you know, Freebird can't make this day.

01:11:18.740 Chamath can't make this day, whatever.

01:11:20.600 Now nobody misses every Thursday.

01:11:23.000 It's locked in.

01:11:24.600 Nobody misses whether I'm in Japan skiing or we're all in and that's the way to do it.

01:11:30.640 And Hey, when are we going to get this Megan Kelly con?

01:11:33.080 That's what you need to do.

01:11:34.220 MK con with the G and T's sell a thousand tickets, get all your fans there.

01:11:39.320 I would have come to MK con.

01:11:40.660 Um, this is where Jason just embarrasses himself.

01:11:43.120 He just, he starts off so strong.

01:11:45.240 Ideas.

01:11:45.520 I have ideas for Megan.

01:11:47.200 If you had to grab your performance on this show, it starts off and then it just crashes.

01:11:53.380 I'm really good about our relationship though.

01:11:55.440 I feel like my relationship with J Cal has come full circle.

01:11:58.400 Look at us now.

01:11:59.380 It really is.

01:12:00.220 By the way, guys, there's a, just to, just to clean up on this, there's an incredible

01:12:05.640 paper, um, published by Tik TOK.

01:12:08.940 The engineers at Tik TOK about how they do personalization and their algorithm.

01:12:14.460 And this is what made me think about this, which is why don't I have the choice to opt

01:12:18.560 into it?

01:12:19.120 Now, the interesting thing that they do that nobody else does is no matter what your content

01:12:24.680 preferences are, they will always seed you with something that's a little bit off topic slash

01:12:32.040 off brand slash off interest, because they're always trying to get this, you know, this more

01:12:37.780 visceral reaction to do you engage in it or not?

01:12:40.520 And it's just an insight to me that even if you are one way, the most valuable algorithms that we all need to make

01:12:49.220 content on top of need to get that right, which is how do you expose it?

01:12:53.780 Even if you're exposing it to someone that just viscerally disagrees, but it just makes the content more

01:13:00.000 valuable and it makes the service better.

01:13:01.700 And I think that that, that's, that's like the next big turn.

01:13:04.260 That's the version two of that Raptor engine that we all need to get right.

01:13:07.740 That makes a lot of sense.

01:13:09.240 I mean, it's been interesting the past couple of years when Facebook deemphasized news, you know,

01:13:14.800 it used to be such an important platform for people who are in news really kind of before

01:13:18.500 we all came into this space.

01:13:20.400 It was very important.

01:13:21.620 Like for Ben, I know when he was building his show, it was extremely important to Facebook.

01:13:25.900 And then they just decided in the wake of all their wokeism and their annoying politics, um,

01:13:30.440 that they were going to stop platforming news and people kind of lost their newsfeed.

01:13:34.780 A lot of people who use Facebook for, for news lost their newsfeed.

01:13:38.080 And for us, we just started using Facebook to promote our more cultural content.

01:13:42.200 We do a lot of cultural segments on the show and it, that wound up working out fine for

01:13:46.320 us because that works very well on Facebook.

01:13:49.340 Facebook likes the, likes those segments.

01:13:51.000 They'll recirculate them a lot.

01:13:52.680 It is, it, you know, it's, it's alternative content in the way you just described.

01:13:56.120 My wife and I went down the rabbit hole of the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni thing.

01:14:01.020 And you're, it's a good rabbit hole.

01:14:03.200 Yeah.

01:14:03.420 You guys like we, we lived inside of your clips for a while.

01:14:06.760 Um, those were living rent free in our head.

01:14:08.820 We talked.

01:14:09.420 Well, I like when you go Brian, Brian Friedman all the time and, uh, I predict it's not going

01:14:14.900 to end well for Blake Lively.

01:14:16.140 I don't think, I think this will not go to trial.

01:14:19.500 It's been set for trial March of 26.

01:14:21.400 There's no way they're going to let this.

01:14:22.660 She's going to let this go to trial because she really will turn into Amber Heard who had

01:14:25.940 to leave the United States after that trial against Johnny.

01:14:28.880 Did you guys watch, did you guys watch the movie?

01:14:31.340 Did you guys like the movie?

01:14:32.980 I did not watch the movie.

01:14:34.260 Nor do I have any desire.

01:14:35.860 I hate it.

01:14:36.220 Do you know why it's, uh, so contentious, Megan?

01:14:38.980 Cause there's so little at stake.

01:14:40.720 There's so little at stake, uh, in this Blake Lively thing.

01:14:44.020 What do you mean?

01:14:44.540 Uh, there's just like, who cares?

01:14:46.320 There's just a bunch of like, you know, Hollywood people fighting.

01:14:49.580 It's a key behind the curtain.

01:14:51.500 That's why I care.

01:14:52.200 It's so interesting.

01:14:53.720 Like.

01:14:53.880 I guess so.

01:14:54.380 The PR stuff.

01:14:55.520 She truly, I know this gets overused now, but she did FAFO.

01:14:58.520 Like she thought she could blame all of her negative press on him.

01:15:01.960 He's a weakling.

01:15:02.800 She's Blake Lively with Ryan Reynolds, her dragon.

01:15:05.980 And she decided I can't take one month worth of negative press, which she got, you know,

01:15:13.740 generated.

01:15:14.520 She says by him, he says by you and your badness.

01:15:17.980 And she's so thin skinned, you know, like, look, look what happens to you.

01:15:21.240 Look what happened to poor J.

01:15:22.120 Cal even on this show.

01:15:23.100 People get picked on when they're in the public eye, right?

01:15:25.600 Like look at, look at just Google Megan Kelly.

01:15:28.980 You'll see terrible articles about me.

01:15:30.840 It's part of being in the public eye.

01:15:33.000 She's just used to being Hollywood's golden girl.

01:15:36.040 And she had such thin skin that after being, having a couple of negative things happen

01:15:39.780 to her for a month, she had to blame him.

01:15:41.720 She decided to blame him.

01:15:43.020 And boy, did she open up a hornet's nest and learn, be careful what you wish for.

01:15:48.580 Cause now you've got the fight you asked for and you're not winning it.

01:15:52.240 I love, I love my Jaders that my Jaders make me greater.

01:15:56.120 I love them.

01:15:56.820 That's right.

01:15:57.180 That's Raiders.

01:15:58.040 The Jaders.

01:15:58.640 I love it.

01:15:59.720 You, you branded the people that, that, that.

01:16:02.260 Oh, absolutely.

01:16:03.500 I mean, how do you think I have so many followers?

01:16:05.880 All these people who hate me, they all follow me.

01:16:09.560 That's the thing.

01:16:10.480 Are you speaking of David Sachs?

01:16:11.780 You know, David, it's so funny.

01:16:15.680 I, I was never into politics.

01:16:17.640 David inserted politics into the all in podcast cause it's his passion.

01:16:21.480 And, um, I've actually enjoyed, you know, sparring with him over it, uh, refining my positions

01:16:27.540 on it.

01:16:27.920 It's made me think about it in a much deeper way because I just never liked it.

01:16:32.160 Um, and you know, we have these like grand debates on Putin and Ukraine and, uh, you know,

01:16:38.480 who's, who's that's how I first heard Shemath's name early on.

01:16:41.860 You were early to say, I just, I'm sorry, but I don't care.

01:16:44.320 Like it's, you know, you, you said it very plainly, but frankly, most of the country landed

01:16:50.540 where you were then.

01:16:52.100 Like, it's not that we don't care at all about what happened to the Ukrainian people,

01:16:56.300 but it's like, we have our own problems.

01:16:58.600 We can't keep throwing good money after bad on that conflict.

01:17:02.100 And don't you think that's what Trump's really been saying these past couple of days?

01:17:05.580 And Hegseth has been saying like, look, it's got to end.

01:17:09.100 It's we, of course, Russia is going to have territory.

01:17:12.940 They're not get Ukraine's not getting back its entire borders.

01:17:16.780 And obviously Ukraine's not joining NATO.

01:17:19.560 Pete Hegseth got a hard time from the press for actually saying that, but we all know

01:17:23.420 that it's like, is it, did he really give up the farm when we all know that Shemath?

01:17:27.700 No.

01:17:28.300 And I think he said the quiet part out loud and you weren't allowed to say it because

01:17:32.520 it was, you know, almost like some, it was like a virtue signaling test.

01:17:38.660 You know, you have to maintain this line, even though everybody behind the scenes already

01:17:42.780 knew to your point, the answer.

01:17:44.400 I mean, the, the crazy thing about Russia, Ukraine is a couple of things.

01:17:47.940 One is, you know, it pulled us in to a situation where the Europeans really should have been

01:17:56.600 taking the lead.

01:17:57.720 And instead, you know, we had to have the opinion.

01:17:59.840 Then we became the major funder.

01:18:02.080 It turns out we sent, you know, 200 plus billion dollars of which at least a hundred billion

01:18:06.340 has gotten completely misplaced, which is unbelievable.

01:18:09.680 Um, and it just goes to show you that you can't even have a conversation about what's

01:18:14.840 right or wrong.

01:18:15.520 And so now, you know, do we need to audit what happened over there?

01:18:19.180 Probably.

01:18:19.880 Do we need a resolution?

01:18:21.500 Yeah, instantly.

01:18:22.500 And I would rather us be able to take our mental energy and focus it internally.

01:18:28.140 And I think that we, we weren't allowed to say that to your point, when I said that it

01:18:31.960 was really more in the context of China.

01:18:33.580 And, you know, uh, some of the things that are going on in China, but it also applied

01:18:38.240 to Ukraine and applied to many things.

01:18:40.060 And, you know, people tried to cancel me and I thought, wow, this is crazy.

01:18:45.040 Um, and now it looks like, you know, most Americans, I think to your point, believe that

01:18:50.660 the right thing to do is just to focus internally and get our house in order.

01:18:54.480 Yep.

01:18:54.940 The great thing about Trump-

01:18:55.660 Trump said yesterday, he had direct talks with Putin that he thinks that he's ready to

01:18:59.800 make a deal.

01:19:00.360 He did it without Zelensky, Zelensky, people said, how could you do it without Zelensky?

01:19:05.400 He said, I got to find out first whether Putin wants to make a deal.

01:19:08.100 Now I know he does want to make a deal.

01:19:09.700 And then I talked to Zelensky who also wants to make a deal.

01:19:12.720 He doesn't think that Zelensky doesn't think that Putin genuinely wants to make a deal,

01:19:16.880 but Trump's like, we're going to make a deal.

01:19:18.360 All right.

01:19:19.040 And no one's going to walk away thrilled, but we're not going to keep funding this thing.

01:19:24.140 And, and Hegseth said, we're definitely not going to have American boots on the ground

01:19:27.420 over there, maintaining security.

01:19:28.660 That's going to have to be Europe.

01:19:29.740 That's your, and the Europeans are like, why weren't we on the call?

01:19:32.560 It's like, would you, there's only one person who can get this done.

01:19:35.960 And he happens to be in the White House oval and he'll get it done.

01:19:39.720 The Europeans will provide the security for it.

01:19:41.780 He secured all that money that Ukraine took from us with earth materials that we need

01:19:48.300 that are in Ukraine.

01:19:49.120 It's the one thing they can give to us.

01:19:50.600 This is the key point.

01:19:51.380 Right.

01:19:51.640 He finally got us something for all this money.

01:19:53.480 But here's the thing, Biden, and I brought this up countless times with Sachs, and we had

01:19:57.820 this very vibrant debate on it where I said, listen, this is a loan lease.

01:20:01.600 Like they are buying these weapons on loan and they have to pay it back.

01:20:05.500 And Sachs was like, you know, to his credit, like that's never going to happen.

01:20:08.340 Biden's never going to ask for the money back.

01:20:09.880 It's going to be a donation.

01:20:10.840 We all know that.

01:20:11.980 You know, Trump comes in.

01:20:13.380 He cares about money.

01:20:14.280 He cares about the balance sheet.

01:20:15.540 He knows we have issues around our solvency.

01:20:18.760 And he said, you know what?

01:20:20.020 I want the money back.

01:20:21.200 It's a loan lease, which is what we did during World War II.

01:20:24.280 And Ukraine is going to pay every dollar back.

01:20:26.340 If Ukraine pays every dollar back, we do a 10, 20 year, you know, Ukraine can't join

01:20:32.180 NATO for 10 years.

01:20:33.160 No big deal.

01:20:34.000 We can outlast Putin.

01:20:35.780 And that's the thing you have to realize about these dictators.

01:20:38.660 You know, they have a certain lifespan.

01:20:40.360 They typically implode.

01:20:41.660 They cause their own problems, as Putin and Xi and North Korea have done.

01:20:45.660 The best thing is to contain them.

01:20:47.460 And you know who's great at containing them and managing them?

01:20:50.280 Trump.

01:20:50.960 They respect him.

01:20:52.060 He's a strong man.

01:20:53.080 He's crazy.

01:20:54.280 He's Captain Chaos.

01:20:55.380 He saber rattles.

01:20:56.420 He threatens them.

01:20:57.540 They respect him.

01:20:58.680 And they're a little scared of him, I think.

01:21:00.480 And if he gets all that money back from Ukraine, we will have protected democracy.

01:21:05.080 We will have contained Putin.

01:21:07.200 And, you know, all's well, that ends well.

01:21:09.120 So I really hope, and I actually think Trump's going to pull it off, and I would give him

01:21:12.880 a lot of credit when he does.

01:21:14.700 I think we have a lot of good news.

01:21:16.040 I mean, as good as we could ask for when it comes to wrapping up that conflict, because

01:21:20.200 it's just, it's got to, it's got to end.

01:21:22.400 It's just, at this point, give us our money back.

01:21:25.300 The long tail of that conflict, though, guys, is going to play out over many decades in Europe.

01:21:29.400 I think that, you know, the question is, well, can Europe change the playbook?

01:21:32.940 Meaning, you know, in the middle of that conflict, to basically just torpedo their ability to

01:21:38.440 actually import energy, to then still continue down the path of turning off domestic nuclear.

01:21:44.380 France was the only one that basically said, this is crazy.

01:21:47.140 I'm not going to do it.

01:21:48.320 And then have to import all this energy from all over the world at all these exorbitant prices.

01:21:53.440 At the same time, the economy is sort of very fragile.

01:21:55.860 The European continent is in a lot of trouble.

01:21:59.680 And these last three or four years have actually added a lot of fuel to the fire.

01:22:05.040 So I think, like, you know, smart people need to have a better opportunity to just,

01:22:09.380 like, be smart in public and then have the public be able to absorb that and actually make decisions.

01:22:16.600 That's why these things are nuts.

01:22:18.800 Like, what's happened is crazy.

01:22:20.900 That's a good transition, smart people saying smart things to J.D. Vance back in Munich.

01:22:25.140 Oh, yeah.

01:22:25.980 With a truth bomb in front of the Europeans who were reportedly just stunned in their seats,

01:22:33.560 uncomfortable shuffling when it comes to free speech, which is, I mean, Europe has just been

01:22:39.060 absolutely abysmal on, and immigration, which, take what I said about free speech, times 10.

01:22:46.480 So the sitting vice president of the United States goes over there.

01:22:49.220 These are allies, yes, but man, he did not mince words.

01:22:53.580 Here's a little of J.D. Vance in Munich yesterday.

01:22:57.800 Heard a lot about what you need to defend yourselves from, and of course, that's important.

01:23:02.920 But what has seemed a little bit less clear to me, and certainly I think to many of the

01:23:08.160 citizens of Europe, is what exactly it is that you're defending yourselves for.

01:23:13.060 What is the positive vision that animates this shared security compact that we all believe is

01:23:19.480 so important, and I believe deeply that there is no security if you are afraid of the voices,

01:23:28.240 the opinions, and the conscience that guide your very own people.

01:23:33.700 Europe faces many challenges, but the crisis this continent faces right now, the crisis I

01:23:39.280 believe we all face together is one of our own making.

01:23:45.240 If you're running in fear of your own voters, there is nothing America can do for you, nor

01:23:51.680 for that matter is there anything that you can do for the American people who elected me and

01:23:56.740 elected President Trump.

01:23:57.820 I'm sorry, that was earlier today, but it's amazing to hear him say it, no?

01:24:04.280 I think so.

01:24:05.240 I think he has to basically set this agenda very, very clearly.

01:24:09.360 Europeans are going to be at the forefront of this next phase of very difficult decision-making.

01:24:14.560 I'll give you one example.

01:24:15.500 The amount of rules and regulations that they make around climate change and the impact that

01:24:22.540 it has economically all over the world, including domestically in their own countries, how are

01:24:27.720 they going to deal with that now that we have to recognize nothing the Europeans do actually

01:24:33.400 has a meaningful impact on climate?

01:24:35.140 Whether you agree with it or not agree with it, it's irrelevant.

01:24:38.360 You need to look at China and India.

01:24:40.360 That's where the whole game is played.

01:24:41.900 So if you can't say that inside of Europe, inside of the borders of Europe, how will you

01:24:47.040 ever change the rules?

01:24:48.340 That's an example.

01:24:49.320 A second example, there is not a single company that's getting started today that has a desire

01:24:54.620 to locate an office directly inside of the UK or Europe.

01:24:58.360 Why?

01:24:58.920 Because the regulatory framework will now come and really go after you if they don't like

01:25:03.240 a single thing that you're doing.

01:25:04.800 So what now happens to the European economy?

01:25:06.880 They get deprived of their chance of having some small modicum of technological supremacy.

01:25:13.020 What do you think happens to those economies?

01:25:15.100 So if you add all of these things up, it all goes back to the root cause that JD is identifying.

01:25:19.940 If you can't say it, you can't fix it.

01:25:23.320 And so they have to decide what page they're on.

01:25:26.180 And it's even worse than that, Shamath, if you think about the fact that they're not content

01:25:30.160 to just have this regulation impact their citizens and to make unbelievably stupid decisions,

01:25:36.360 like the Germans turning off three of their remaining nuclear reactors and then building

01:25:42.160 a pipeline from a dictator to buy oil directly from Russia.

01:25:46.220 The French figured it out.

01:25:47.300 They were 90 percent at the peak nuclear.

01:25:49.860 Now they're about 60 and about 20 percent renewables.

01:25:52.100 They're totally energy independent.

01:25:54.660 The European Union wants to regulate American companies.

01:25:59.660 We have companies like Adobe wanted to buy a tiny company called Figma for 10, 20 billion

01:26:05.420 dollars.

01:26:06.340 You know who stopped it?

01:26:08.460 It was the Europeans.

01:26:10.360 It was the UK.

01:26:11.780 It was the UK.

01:26:12.680 So yeah, they're going after our companies and what we're doing.

01:26:15.940 My advice to those companies were, you know what?

01:26:18.240 If you're Adobe or Figma, stop selling your product in the UK.

01:26:21.680 Block the UK.

01:26:22.820 It's a meaningless market.

01:26:24.140 They're so deranged with the regulations.

01:26:27.220 They want to have them apply to the rest of the world.

01:26:30.360 And to Tremont's point.

01:26:32.480 Elon was battling this when it comes to free speech and X in Europe.

01:26:36.740 And the free speech battle, I mean, it's a reminder of why we left England.

01:26:41.600 Why we, as Americans said, you know what?

01:26:43.540 The most important thing to us, amendment number one is free speech and they don't have

01:26:49.940 it anymore.

01:26:50.460 It's all but dead in Europe.

01:26:52.200 There was a great tablet magazine piece.

01:26:53.920 I actually just pulled it, um, in advance of today.

01:26:57.860 And, uh, it's, it's written by a guy named Paul du Quinoy.

01:27:01.860 And he goes on about what just happened in Germany with this compact magazine and how

01:27:08.100 there's, there's, um, a rule in, in Germany.

01:27:11.320 There's a law that says that they can shut you down.

01:27:14.080 They can shut your speech down if they think that it is inconsistent with their constitutional

01:27:20.400 order, the constitutional order of their country.

01:27:22.900 And so they went in, they think this is a quote, far right magazine because it supports

01:27:28.580 this ADL party, uh, sorry, AFD party that is very anti-illegal immigration.

01:27:34.140 And they went in, they seized, they have like 40,000 subscribers.

01:27:37.960 They, they seized the offices.

01:27:40.840 They, um, basically took over control of the whole thing and shut it down from publishing.

01:27:45.180 The thought of that happening in the United States, I mean, it's, there would be a full

01:27:51.460 revolt I'd like to think.

01:27:53.580 So he's speaking to the right audience there.

01:27:55.760 They do need to hear it.

01:27:57.360 And I'll just give you one more soundbite before I give it back to you.

01:28:00.340 You mentioned that, you know, they're insane green energy, a commitment at the expense of

01:28:05.780 their own people.

01:28:06.520 JD tied that and the free speech together in SOT 30.

01:28:11.740 And expressing opinions isn't election interference.

01:28:15.280 Even when people express views outside your own country, and even when those people are very

01:28:21.420 influential, and trust me, I say this with all humor, if American democracy can survive 10

01:28:28.080 years of Greta Thunberg scolding, you guys can survive a few months of Elon Musk.

01:28:33.080 What no democracy, American, German, or European will survive is telling millions of voters that

01:28:39.440 their thoughts and concerns, their aspirations, their pleas for relief are invalid or unworthy

01:28:46.020 of even being considered.

01:28:49.240 This is, he's completely right.

01:28:51.040 I'll give you an example of this.

01:28:53.280 You know, I've, I've been to 10 Downing a couple of times.

01:28:56.780 In the last four or five years, with all of the relationships that I've tried to build in

01:29:03.360 Europe and in the UK, I think Greta Thunberg has met with more of the leaders there than I

01:29:10.560 have multiplied by like 10.

01:29:11.900 Now, that's fine and good for Greta Thunberg.

01:29:14.320 But I think the point is that there, there, there was just this incredible animated energy

01:29:21.400 to wrap yourself around these moral ideals without questioning whether they were legitimate.

01:29:26.500 And I don't exactly know why it happened or where it came from.

01:29:31.480 But JD's right.

01:29:32.660 If you, you need at some point, you just got to rip the bandaid off and course correct.

01:29:36.780 And I think Europe's at that moment.

01:29:38.860 America is at that moment.

01:29:40.940 We're clearly doing it.

01:29:42.940 And you can tell that they are just so viscerally concerned and it just, it really pushes against

01:29:48.640 the grain of 20 or 30 years of embedded behavior.

01:29:52.840 But I think Europeans are capable of it.

01:29:54.980 They just need to figure out that it's, it's existential as well for them.

01:29:57.940 I think they're starting to feel it though, in the same way we reached our boiling point

01:30:01.840 and reelected Trump.

01:30:03.060 You know, the, the, the woman, JD mentioned a different man who was arrested for praying

01:30:07.720 outside of an abortion clinic.

01:30:09.080 I remember this video.

01:30:10.480 Um, it's a, it's a woman.

01:30:11.880 Her name was Isabel Vaughn Spruce.

01:30:14.380 She was silently praying guys in her head.

01:30:18.220 She's sitting there silently praying.

01:30:21.380 They can't come over and say, what are you praying in your head?

01:30:24.400 What are you doing?

01:30:25.280 She's like, I'm silently praying in my head outside of an abortion clinic.

01:30:28.700 You have to go.

01:30:29.320 They arrested her.

01:30:30.840 That's what it's come to across the pond in, you know, uh, a distant relative now of

01:30:37.640 the United States.

01:30:38.460 We don't, I don't think we can really even understand this.

01:30:41.040 Although we're getting a little dangerously close in incident after incident in throwing

01:30:47.020 the book at people who are praying outside of abortion clinics here to the point where

01:30:51.700 Trump had to pardon some of them.

01:30:53.120 You know, it's not nearly as bad as it is overseas, but I think you're right.

01:30:56.580 What do you think, Jake, how that they're reaching their breaking point?

01:30:59.360 The, the citizenry is, has had enough of this.

01:31:02.620 I, I don't know where America, you know, or how we got onto this like weird side quest

01:31:07.800 that we had to police speech.

01:31:09.140 When I grew up, UCLA was out there saying, we're going to let the Ku Klux Klan march down,

01:31:15.060 you know, main street, because that's better to defend uncomfortable speech than lose freedom

01:31:21.720 of speech.

01:31:22.180 It's a reason why we put it as number one.

01:31:23.820 We believe that a hundred percent, that was a democratic position, in fact.

01:31:28.760 And by the way, the border, it was the Republicans position, but 15, 20 years ago that we should

01:31:34.160 have an open border because they wanted to reap the benefits of NAFTA and free trade.

01:31:39.260 So these parties have just flip-flopped their positions.

01:31:43.100 And the idea that Americans can't say what they want, even if it's unpopular, is crazy.

01:31:47.580 You look at, you brought up Zuckerberg before he was more than willing under Biden, Kamala,

01:31:53.980 everybody to ban speech on his platform.

01:31:57.280 YouTube would put warnings on the all in podcast.

01:32:01.100 When we talked about the science behind COVID, like you really need to give people a warning,

01:32:06.320 like Friedberg's a scientist.

01:32:08.240 Like, we're going to, you're warning people, blocking content.

01:32:12.740 It makes no sense.

01:32:13.800 If Kanye West, as but one recent example, is a racist, mentally ill, whatever he is, and

01:32:19.560 he posts crazy stuff, we can all see it.

01:32:21.900 Now we know.

01:32:22.900 Kanye is mentally ill and or he's a huge fan of Hitler's.

01:32:26.780 Great.

01:32:27.340 Now we know.

01:32:28.340 We don't have to do business with him.

01:32:30.040 I always love the fact that these idiot, racist, lunatics would out themselves.

01:32:35.340 That's good, and it's good for our kids and everybody else to see, hey, here's racist

01:32:39.540 people.

01:32:40.040 Here's racist, evil people.

01:32:41.900 They exist in the world.

01:32:43.140 They're nuts.

01:32:44.520 There they are, and you can ignore them.

01:32:46.720 You can change the channel.

01:32:48.180 If you don't like what somebody's saying, you can listen, or you can create your own media

01:32:52.000 today and counter it.

01:32:53.280 You could write an essay.

01:32:54.680 You could do your own monologue on your own podcast.

01:32:57.960 And why silence people?

01:33:00.980 I don't understand what the point is.

01:33:02.760 It basically says to me, you can't win the argument.

01:33:05.340 Or you're not willing to engage the argument.

01:33:07.880 You're too scared.

01:33:08.360 You're too afraid to hear the words.

01:33:09.460 I agree with you on Kanye.

01:33:11.100 I think he's, or yay.

01:33:11.920 He's now in the middle of another mental health episode.

01:33:14.240 I think that's what this bizarre latest behavior is.

01:33:16.980 It is sad.

01:33:17.600 I've said a long, I don't understand.

01:33:19.760 People should stop platforming him like this.

01:33:22.220 Like, you know, like he, during his last meltdown, he was on News Nation and it was

01:33:27.540 like, don't, don't try to monetize his mental break, which is very clear.

01:33:32.180 He's in the midst of, we all know he's got this issue.

01:33:34.620 It's so interesting.

01:33:35.640 You bring this point up as a broadcaster, broadcaster, broadcaster.

01:33:38.540 I had a conversation with Lex and I was talking to Lex.

01:33:40.780 He's like, should I have Kanye on?

01:33:41.960 I'm going to try to get through to him.

01:33:43.800 I said, I said, Lex, you're a great interviewer.

01:33:46.700 We're friends.

01:33:47.260 He's mentally ill and you're going to platform, I guarantee you, in the first hour or two,

01:33:53.500 he's going to say something so crazy and then you're going to be responsible for propagating

01:33:56.920 it.

01:33:57.360 Guys, where's the balance between free speech and platforming and deplatforming then?

01:34:01.320 Well, if you know the person's got mental illness, I mean, giving them a plot.

01:34:05.060 How do you know, Jason?

01:34:06.560 Have you watched him and have you heard his family say he's having an episode?

01:34:10.040 His family says he's having an episode.

01:34:10.420 Kim Kardashian says he's bipolar and she was married to him for what, 10 years?

01:34:14.580 I take her at a word on that and I know he's denied it, I should say that, but it does

01:34:20.340 seem he goes through these bouts of very bizarre behavior that don't necessarily match up with

01:34:24.940 how he is the rest of the time.

01:34:26.860 I mean, maybe it is just him.

01:34:28.660 I just, if there's any doubt about the mental wellness of the person, I wouldn't put him

01:34:32.440 on.

01:34:32.700 I just, I would be too worried about exploiting a weak moment, you know, like a low moment

01:34:37.440 for the person mentally in the same way that you can't, I don't know if you guys have

01:34:40.720 ever had somebody that, you know, a friend or a family who's actually dealing with mental

01:34:45.540 illness, you can't get through to them.

01:34:47.540 You can't say you're having a mental episode, please stop saying that, you know, they're

01:34:52.620 not reachable.

01:34:53.440 So it's kind of like the whole thing is pointless other than for just like a voyeurism sake.

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01:35:28.000 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

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01:36:27.720 There's another podcast with the very annoying Kara Swisher and her partner, Scott Galloway.

01:36:37.780 I know.

01:36:38.600 That decided it would be a great idea to arrest the Doge workers under Elon.

01:36:44.500 I mean, Scott Galloway openly called for them to be arrested.

01:36:47.240 And Elon responded on X saying, Swisher and Galloway are threatening talented young software engineers who gave up high compensation for death threats in order to help the American people.

01:36:56.860 Shame on them, Swisher and Galloway.

01:36:59.760 Cruel, mean, and deceitful human beings that they are.

01:37:02.780 Then those two went back on their podcast and said the following in SotTend.

01:37:07.840 Like they traded it because this is what they want to do and they were enthusiastically doing it and we don't have to like them.

01:37:15.320 And just by not liking them, we're not threatening them.

01:37:17.760 So that's fucking nonsense.

01:37:19.220 And neither you didn't threaten them in any way.

01:37:21.600 And it's a larger part of the strategy of intimidating journalists.

01:37:24.820 They're trying.

01:37:25.680 He's trying to shut us up.

01:37:26.740 If he's going to accuse me of overreach.

01:37:30.400 Yeah.

01:37:30.820 Then come after me, bitch.

01:37:32.660 Yeah.

01:37:33.020 To go after the woman.

01:37:34.820 Yeah.

01:37:35.020 It shows one of two things, either you're weak or you have an incredible bias, i.e. misogynist.

01:37:41.880 Let's just get to the source here.

01:37:43.500 It's just so clear the guy wants to fuck me.

01:37:45.840 I mean.

01:37:46.220 That's what I said.

01:37:47.360 The sexual tension is palpable.

01:37:48.680 I get it.

01:37:49.080 I get it.

01:37:50.300 And he's rich.

01:37:51.380 So there is a shot.

01:37:52.680 Lord.

01:37:54.280 What is that?

01:37:56.160 I mean, it's irrelevant.

01:37:57.620 You explain it to me.

01:37:58.880 That's Kara Swisher.

01:37:59.940 She says she's the tech journalist.

01:38:01.980 She's the one who covers your industry better than anyone.

01:38:05.880 You know, she was I was friendly with her for a long time with Karen Swisher.

01:38:10.340 I'm sorry, Kara.

01:38:11.220 Same.

01:38:11.680 Karen.

01:38:12.740 And, you know, she kind of when she was with Walt Mossberg, you know, she really focused

01:38:17.380 on the tech, the business.

01:38:18.540 She was a little spicy on the margins as a broadcaster.

01:38:21.340 But when she partnered with Scott Galloway, the whole thing went really dark.

01:38:24.960 And, you know, he I have some sympathy for him.

01:38:27.440 He's talked about mental illness, depression, whatever, very publicly on his podcast.

01:38:32.360 And, you know, I think he's so desperate to, you know, get ratings and they're making,

01:38:37.860 you know, decent money.

01:38:39.100 I think from their pockets, they've been talking about, you know, oh, they're making eight figures

01:38:42.300 with their new deal or whatever.

01:38:44.260 They just do Elon for clicks, right?

01:38:46.500 In the NBA, I'm a Knicks fan.

01:38:48.440 We have an expression Knicks for clicks.

01:38:50.480 You get a lot of clicks if you talk about the Knicks because it's a big market.

01:38:53.100 You get a lot of views if you trash Elon.

01:38:55.480 But, you know, I do think, you know, they're saying some things that are truly offensive

01:39:00.300 and then, which is fine.

01:39:02.780 But he also was like making jokes about Trump being assassinated.

01:39:07.220 I thought that was incredibly poor taste.

01:39:08.960 Like you really shouldn't make jokes about, you know, potential assassination of the president.

01:39:13.960 Especially this president.

01:39:16.180 Yeah, it's like happened twice.

01:39:17.620 And, you know, I think he's off the deep end, you know.

01:39:21.980 People send me clips and they go viral and stuff like that.

01:39:25.500 She's making a cottage industry out of being this alleged Elon expert because she's interviewed him.

01:39:31.520 I mean, so has Don Lemon.

01:39:33.120 Doesn't make him an Elon expert.

01:39:35.260 I was with Elon like the two or three times she interviewed him.

01:39:38.380 Like, because we're friends and we hang.

01:39:40.440 And it's irrelevant.

01:39:42.240 And, you know, like trading on other people's brand, like just go build something in the world.

01:39:47.940 Go do something yourself.

01:39:49.380 And I think these commenters are not actually in the arena, as my friend Shamoff likes to say,

01:39:54.660 they're not building something.

01:39:55.620 So they just want to tear people down and it's good for ratings or whatever.

01:39:58.660 But it just seems super illogical because to what we were just talking about with Germany

01:40:04.000 and Europe, they're just out of sync with how people think.

01:40:08.620 We have bigger problems.

01:40:09.760 They're super out of sync.

01:40:10.420 And they're not objective.

01:40:11.960 You know, I can come on here and I can talk about, hey, here's where we differ in the

01:40:15.520 border.

01:40:16.100 And you can have an intelligent conversation about it.

01:40:18.020 I think they're just off the deep end with Elon derangement syndrome, Trump derangement

01:40:22.080 syndrome.

01:40:22.280 I think they're just really scared of what's going to happen during this presidency.

01:40:27.200 I can tell you what's going to happen during this presidency.

01:40:28.980 Exactly what happened the last time.

01:40:30.260 It's going to be a bit chaotic.

01:40:31.940 Stock market's going to go up.

01:40:33.400 We're going to balance the budget a bit.

01:40:35.240 He'll stop the wars.

01:40:36.140 He's good at not starting wars and he's good at stopping them.

01:40:38.780 And I think it will be a relatively successful presidency.

01:40:41.660 And then somebody else will win and life will go on.

01:40:45.080 This idea that Trump's going to destroy the world is crazy.

01:40:48.860 He didn't destroy the world last time.

01:40:51.140 They're calling JD 48, which I like and fully support.

01:40:55.100 I got to run.

01:40:55.780 I'm up against the clock, you guys.

01:40:57.240 What a pleasure.

01:40:58.120 Thanks so much for coming on together.

01:40:59.660 This was fun.

01:41:00.860 Thanks, Megan.

01:41:01.300 Good times.

01:41:01.920 Happy Valentine's Day.

01:41:03.360 Yeah, we could do this a Valentine's Day tradition.

01:41:05.040 Thank you, you too.

01:41:05.320 Oh, absolutely.

01:41:07.240 You're booked.

01:41:07.880 Consider yourselves booked.

01:41:09.160 See you next year.

01:41:09.640 See you next year.

01:41:10.500 Have a wonderful week.

01:41:10.980 All right.

01:41:11.460 You too.

01:41:13.820 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:41:15.900 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - February 14, 2025

Power of Trump 2.0, Why Elon and DOGE are Working, and Independent Media's Impact, with Jason Calacanis and Chamath Palihapitiya of All-In ｜ Ep. 1008

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