The Megyn Kelly Show - Prosecuting O.J., Misogyny in the Courtroom, and Race and Justice, with Marcia Clark ｜ Ep. 377

00:00:00.440 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.720 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'm so excited for this guest

00:00:18.000 today. Marsha Clark is a name that many know very well from the trial of the century, a century ago,

00:00:25.840 way back in the 20th century. In 1995, famed NFL player and actor O.J. Simpson was tried for the

00:00:34.380 murders of his ex-wife, Nicole Brown, and her friend, Ronald Goldman. The trial created a

00:00:40.000 full-on media circus with around-the-clock coverage like this country had never seen before. At the

00:00:48.020 center of it all was lead prosecutor Marsha Clark of the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office.

00:00:53.160 Over the course of that eight-month trial, she and her fellow prosecutor, Christopher Darden,

00:00:58.100 gave their best efforts to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the guilt of O.J. Simpson

00:01:03.160 in committing these two murders. They faced off against a team of defense lawyers, including

00:01:08.140 Robert Shapiro, Johnny Cochran, F. Lee Bailey, Robert Kardashian. Later, our pal Alan Dershowitz would

00:01:15.340 join, known as the Dream Team. Dersh says he now refers to it as the Nightmare Team. Cochran was in

00:01:22.400 the lead role, and he rendered this famous standout line in closing arguments.

00:01:28.840 Like the defining moment in this trial, the day Mr. Darden asked Mr. Simpson to try on those gloves,

00:01:37.020 and the gloves didn't fit. Remember these words, if it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

00:01:43.120 Amazing. So, so well done. I mean, even if you disagree with the verdict, you can't take that

00:01:48.740 away from Johnny Cochran. And we all remember what happened next. O.J. did indeed try putting

00:01:54.160 on the glove. It did not fit. It was the moment, Marsha says, she knew they had lost the case.

00:01:59.880 It has been more than 20 years since the O.J. case ended in an acquittal, but the trial continues

00:02:04.840 to capture the attention of the nation. It lives on in pop culture through TV shows, music, movies,

00:02:10.860 documentaries, and many are still asking questions on the result of the verdict, intense media frenzy,

00:02:17.200 and what life was like for those involved after the trial, and what the trial and our obsession with

00:02:22.420 it says about us. Marsha Clark has a fascinating life story, one that goes well beyond her role

00:02:28.060 as lead prosecutor in that case. There was her role as a working mother. She became somewhat iconic

00:02:34.200 for pushing back. Remember Lanceto, the judge, who was trying to shame her for her long, her refusal

00:02:40.180 to work after hours, and she was not having it. And life now, including her career as an author

00:02:46.020 of successful crime novels. There is so much more to get to, and I'm thrilled to have her on the show

00:02:53.560 with us today. This is my first time meeting and talking to the one and only Marsha Clark.

00:03:02.580 Marsha, welcome to the show. Hi, nice to meet you. It's a pleasure.

00:03:07.320 Oh my gosh, you have to understand. I'm sure you've heard this many times, but to me,

00:03:12.620 you really are a heroine. I was in law school while you were trying this case. I was in my third year

00:03:18.340 of law school watching you and dying to be a prosecutor. And I had this weird thing at the

00:03:24.160 time as I've had it ever since. I don't know. There's something, there's like a weird theory

00:03:27.200 on the internet that somehow Nicole Brown Simpson and I are the same person or that I'm her reincarnated.

00:03:31.500 I don't know what their theory is, but there's just weird tentacles between me and this case.

00:03:35.720 But I was obsessed with you. I was like, I want to be just like her win or lose. You were

00:03:42.200 amazing. So it's truly thrilling to meet you.

00:03:44.420 Oh, thank you so much, Megan. I'm a big fan too. So mutual society here, but yeah,

00:03:51.300 that's crazy. You were in law school at the time and yet you finished law school and became a lawyer

00:03:57.140 anyway. I wanted to be a prosecutor so badly. I never went to law school thinking I wanted to be

00:04:04.320 a lawyer. I just wanted to be a prosecutor. That's all. And it wasn't until I amassed my hundred grand

00:04:09.420 in debt and saw what they pay you in the New York city district's attorney's office. I was like,

00:04:15.000 oh man, I need another dream. So I went private.

00:04:18.540 It's terrifying, isn't it?

00:04:20.500 Yes. So respect, respect, because I know it doesn't pay well and it's scary and you take a lot of

00:04:25.840 negative incoming, but you believe you're on the side of the angels when you take a job like this.

00:04:30.300 And one of the fun things in reading your book and getting, you know, sort of boning up on your

00:04:34.220 backstory is a lot of people go to the DA's office and then leave and go make a bunch of money in the

00:04:39.560 private sector as these white shoe criminal defense lawyers. You actually started as a defense

00:04:44.560 lawyer, a criminal defense lawyer. And I love the story. Basically, after not too long, your boss was

00:04:49.380 like, you might consider joining the other side. You seem a little better suited. So tell us about

00:04:54.760 that. So it was a, it was a, um, a double murder plus attempted murder case and, um, involving a

00:05:04.340 pretty well-known criminal, um, head of a gang. And, um, there were flaws in the evidence and I had to

00:05:12.700 write the motion to dismiss at the preliminary hearing. And I thought, you know, if the judge

00:05:17.260 actually follows the law, uh, this case gets dismissed. And I thought, but you know, it's a

00:05:24.960 preliminary hearing. The standard of proof is low, but we'll probably get through, be fine. And so I

00:05:31.540 didn't even want to go to court with my boss. He presented the motion and came back and said,

00:05:36.360 Marsha, congratulations. We won case dismissed. And I went, Oh shit. He looked at me, he said,

00:05:43.980 okay, we can refile. Uh, and maybe you want to be a DA. 0.51

00:05:49.960 Right. Right. You can come back as the prosecutor on this case. Yeah. Because it's one of those things

00:05:55.360 where I don't know you, now you get shame for being a DA and putting people in jail. Like it's

00:05:59.980 somehow inherently bad. But I remember being in law school and even then not understanding how

00:06:05.060 criminal defense attorneys could do what they do. Now I have a better appreciation. I see very clearly

00:06:09.760 their critical role, but I couldn't do it. I could not do it. I'm much more prosecution oriented like

00:06:15.400 you. So you wind up, what was it? Three years out of law school working for the LA district attorney

00:06:20.540 or how many, how many years of law school? Yeah. Uh huh. No more. Let me think. Hold on. I don't know

00:06:25.720 about, about two and a half, three years out of law school. Um, went to the DA's office and remained

00:06:32.320 there until, you know, after the trial. Yeah. Now, before we get to all that, let's talk about a little

00:06:38.600 bit of backstory because it's interesting to get to know you. I understand you were born in California,

00:06:42.740 but you were raised kind of all over. Tell us a little bit about how you bounced around.

00:06:48.160 Yeah. So I was born in Berkeley and then we moved all over the place, um, pretty much until I was a

00:06:56.560 senior in high school. And so we lived in Tacoma, Washington. We lived in Texas. We lived in,

00:07:02.980 um, Michigan. We lived in, um, Maryland. We lived in New York and then came back. Pardon?

00:07:12.540 Why was that? Oh, my father was the director of the food and drug administration. So he kept getting

00:07:17.560 promoted and every promotion came with a transfer. So we were, we bounced around a lot and then wound

00:07:24.860 up back in Los Angeles. So, and then I stayed here, you know, I actually really loved New York. I did not

00:07:32.060 want to leave. Um, and I really thought I would move back, but then I went to college and then I

00:07:38.440 got, you know what I mean? Life kind of took hold and life was here. And so I stayed here.

00:07:42.880 Now there was something in your past that you revealed in your book that I didn't know about.

00:07:48.680 And I do think it had a role in you becoming a prosecutor and it must've made the trial of OJ,

00:07:54.800 you know, just to have a few more stakes for you personally than the average prosecutor.

00:07:59.840 And that was, you yourself became a crime victim at age 17.

00:08:05.300 Right. So that was, um, during a trip out of the country. And I really, um, I think I was just

00:08:15.000 incredibly naive, but I was raped. Um, it was a pretty violent rape. And, um, that was, 0.97

00:08:26.400 I remember walking into the ocean and thinking I was going to kill myself because I didn't think I

00:08:32.580 could stand myself. You know, there was a way in which I was so devastated and felt like I had been

00:08:39.520 used up and thrown out. And it was, um, pretty bad. And the very last moment, water up to here,

00:08:47.460 I said, wait a minute. And I got mad. I said, I'm not doing this. And for the longest time,

00:08:54.380 I actually, it was almost immediately thereafter blocked out the memory completely and pretended

00:08:59.220 it never happened. Um, but I kept having horrible dreams about it. Um, and so it didn't go away,

00:09:05.480 but ultimately I did wind up dealing with it very shortly after I became a prosecutor. So none of this

00:09:12.040 was conscious, but what happened was I was, um, just joined the office. I had been a DA for what,

00:09:18.760 maybe three, four months and I was handling preliminary hearings and a woman who was a rape 1.00

00:09:24.080 victim came in and she, she only wanted to have a woman prosecutor. And so I took the case and I

00:09:30.320 remember her sitting outside and talking and, um, she was, she was just a wonderful person,

00:09:36.740 wonderful woman. And I felt so badly for her, um, on within the weirdest, it must be just a coincidence,

00:09:44.880 but within hours I was so sick. I had a fever. I had the shakes. I was a mess. And the defense

00:09:53.400 attorney looked at me and of course that you better go home. I went home. I was sick. Um, but then

00:09:59.420 realized that it was stirring up a memory and it was the memory of my own rape. And so, you know,

00:10:07.700 finally dealt with it, finally acknowledged what had happened. Um, and her case went well. Um,

00:10:14.520 as far as I know, I finished the preliminary hearing, certainly he was held to answer. I

00:10:18.160 believe he was convicted. Um, and I do think that impacted my ability to, um, emphasize and

00:10:25.900 understand. I think especially back then, which was the stone age, rape was still something they

00:10:31.980 looked at the woman and said, what did you do? What were you wearing? What did you say? How did you act?

00:10:37.700 And, um, the ability to, to hand, to, you know, look back at my own life and what did I do and

00:10:44.980 realize I was blaming myself, um, for, uh, for simply saying hello to someone, being nice to someone 0.98

00:10:54.000 and realize that this is bullshit. Um, and I think that did help add a layer of empathy and understanding 0.88

00:11:01.320 that, um, I might not have otherwise had. Certainly it made me, um, even more proud of being a prosecutor,

00:11:09.400 being able to help people that way. Yeah. I, I understand. I, I feel like looking at the arc of

00:11:15.760 your career, I mean, not to, not to be brazen about it, but I feel like your own experience as a crime

00:11:21.940 victim made you somewhat of a warrior for, uh, for other women who have gone through that and worse.

00:11:28.640 You joined what, what I understand is essentially kind of like a special victims unit at all,

00:11:33.320 a special trials unit, or describe the unit that you were in for 10 years.

00:11:37.620 So that was my goal was to get into the special trials unit. Very, very. So the DA's office had

00:11:42.500 several units, hardcore gangs, sexual violence. Now they had, they had family violence. Um,

00:11:49.000 each one was a different, you know, specialty, but there was one very small unit of only about that

00:11:55.240 time, five, uh, attorneys, five DA's that handled all the high profile cases. So the, um, night stalker

00:12:02.800 was there. Um, the onion field would have been there. They would, it just all of the, the high

00:12:09.940 profile, you know, big, all, all murder, pretty much all murder cases. And then, so at some point,

00:12:17.220 I'm sorry. That's the A team for sure. And it's also people who have to be able to take

00:12:21.540 the scrutiny of the media watching every single move. Little did, you know, just how much for sure.

00:12:29.400 Right. He's like, Oh sure. That might be fun. No. Oh wait.

00:12:32.980 But back then, Megan, the media scrutiny was nothing. I mean, it was nothing. They would show

00:12:39.280 up maybe the, when we say the press, then we're talking newspapers, uh, physical newspapers,

00:12:45.140 newspapers and they would show up with maybe a camera and your picture. The DA's picture would

00:12:52.120 never be in the camera, be in the frame ever. It was just the defendant. And if they spelled your

00:12:57.320 name, right. It was amazing. If they spelled, you spelled your name at all. So that was the,

00:13:02.400 the media coverage back then they'd show up with the arraignment. They'd show up maybe in somewhere

00:13:08.220 in the middle and then at the verdict. And that was that. And so there was no worry about media

00:13:14.580 scrutiny. And it was just, you know, you're just doing these big cases. And the real challenge of

00:13:19.200 them was that they went so long. I mean, we're talking, one of the trials took two years and

00:13:24.520 being in trial for two years straight was so intense and crazy. It was really weird at the end of the

00:13:31.620 case, within about a week of it finally being over, I was, I realized I was losing hair and I was

00:13:39.080 freaking out like what's going on. Oh my God, wake up, find hair on my pillow. And one of the

00:13:44.560 other lawyers in a unit said it's stress. It'll come back. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I remember when

00:13:50.060 I was practicing law, which is an incredibly stressful profession, unlike media, which is

00:13:53.820 a walk in the park. But I remember when I was practicing law, hearing the stats about like the

00:13:59.800 average life expectancy in America. And it's still that women are expected to outlive men for the most

00:14:06.040 part. Women have a longer life expectancy. And I remember thinking these are not lawyers. These women 1.00

00:14:10.780 are not lawyers. Like there's no way we haven't worked our way over into the short lifespan category

00:14:16.200 as female lawyers. Just too stressful. Then I didn't have anything like the law career that you 1.00

00:14:22.960 had. So I can only imagine. And in the meantime, you're trying to raise two kids and you're going

00:14:26.460 through a divorce and all that would come out during the OJ trial as well, what you were going

00:14:29.460 through. So let's talk before we get to OJ. You you were the prosecutor on another case, which I

00:14:35.960 happen to know a fair amount about because I I, too, am a crime victim. Really, I was stalked very

00:14:43.140 badly by a very deranged person who wound up being going into jail and a mental facility for a decade

00:14:50.780 for what he did to me. And so I boned up very quickly on stalking and stalking cases. And when

00:14:58.380 does one get a restraining order? And what are the risks of doing that? And blah, blah, blah. And that's

00:15:02.120 when Gavin DeBecker first came into my life, who I know you talk to on this case I'm about

00:15:06.160 to get to. And we just had him on the show a couple of months ago. And the case was the

00:15:11.260 prosecution of Robert Bardo, who killed, stalked and killed a famous actress at the time by

00:15:18.100 the name of Rebecca Schaefer. And this did make national headlines. It was horrific. For

00:15:23.920 those who aren't familiar with the case, let me just show you Rebecca Schaefer. She was starring 0.59

00:15:27.380 in a show called My Sister Sam with Pam Dauber of Mork and Mindy fame. And she was young.

00:15:33.840 She was like 20, 21 years old. I'm going to show you the clip and then Marshall Clark will

00:15:37.520 tell us what happened. Here it is.

00:15:42.340 What's wrong? Nobody takes me seriously. Nobody thinks I can solve a complex emotional problem.

00:15:49.660 Okay, I have a problem you can solve. My apartment looks like Macy's in hell. 0.95

00:15:59.620 You just hate my stuff, Sam.

00:16:01.880 Oh, here we go.

00:16:03.080 What? I have learned to live with your stuff. You think it's fun living with someone who saves

00:16:07.580 jars?

00:16:10.800 So there actually was kind of a resemblance between the two of them. And I know Pam Dauber took

00:16:16.200 this whole what happened to Rebecca very hard personally. So tell us what happened with Robert

00:16:21.400 Bardo, the man who killed Rebecca Schaefer. So that I did not know until a couple of days. I

00:16:31.600 didn't immediately know it was a stalking case. It was a murder case that I was given to try. And it

00:16:38.760 was my first introduction to this kind of stalking where it was the kind of stalking I had heard of and

00:16:47.280 knew about as a DA was boyfriend stalking ex-girlfriends, you know, and it was a personal connection that had

00:16:54.240 gone sour. And then they were doing what they could to pay back the other side. But this notion of stalking a

00:17:02.420 celebrity you've never met, or maybe only met in a crowd of fans was something new to me. And so fairly early on in the

00:17:11.760 case, as I was investigating, Gavin DeBecker called. And I did not know him other than I had heard about his name and

00:17:22.060 connection, I believe it was with the Teresa Saldana case. She was another actress who had been stalked and he

00:17:29.420 attempted to murder her did not. She survived. And so I had some idea that he was an expert in this field. So we started to

00:17:39.240 talk and it was revelatory. I mean, I think Gavin's a genius. And we spent hours and hours and hours and hours on the

00:17:48.660 phone, as he was traveling and doing all kinds of different cases and working, answering my questions about stalkers about

00:17:55.580 their mentality, about why this happens, how this happens, and how do we prevent it, by the way, and how do we

00:18:01.720 keep people safe? In addition to, of course, what the prosecution, the shape of the prosecution, because

00:18:08.500 he went to Park Dietz, who used to work with Gavin, who was a psychiatrist, psychologist. Now I can't

00:18:16.760 remember. But that was his point of view was going to be that Robert Bardo did not premeditate the murder,

00:18:21.600 that he did not intend to kill, that he, it was a rash impulse, etc. Which I knew, I believed to be bullshit. So there was a lot of 0.99

00:18:33.820 discussion and a lot of preparation with that in mind. But I learned a great deal about the stalking mentality as a result of my

00:18:41.820 collaboration with Gavin during that case. It was such the most, one of the most incredibly tragic

00:18:48.720 of circumstances where you have the entirely innocent victim who did nothing but be kind to someone. And this

00:18:56.720 was what happened. This was her reward was, you know, she opens the door and he shoots her. It was horrifying. 0.96

00:19:04.260 He shot her through the heart. She, she truly had had no contact with him. He hired a private

00:19:08.780 investigator to track down her address. He got it. He showed up there. She answered her own door.

00:19:16.160 She, I think, gave him an autograph or something to that effect, like on the spot and then closed the

00:19:23.080 door. And, and then he came back and knocked again and she opened the door again and he shot her through 0.94

00:19:29.840 the heart, killing her. They call this kind of stalker an erotomaniac. And it's somebody basically who 0.95

00:19:35.720 has no connection with you, but in his head believes that you have some sort of a, essentially a love

00:19:41.420 connection. In my case, the guy thought that I was sending him messages because the number one rule is

00:19:46.120 don't communicate with your stalker. Do not communicate with your stalker. And so even signing

00:19:50.060 the autograph is potentially dangerous. And I've heard you say, you learn from Gavin saying anything

00:19:55.620 more than the autograph isn't the next level of danger, you know, like all best or love, you know,

00:20:01.800 whatever, just, just, just your name is sufficient. Um, but, but if you, if my stalker believed that

00:20:08.140 he, I was communicating to him through the president's ties, through my hand motions on

00:20:13.040 television, through things that Sean Hannity was saying on, on his show, like I had nothing to do

00:20:16.880 with me. Even if I had gone off the air, he was believing that I was sending him messages. So it was

00:20:21.560 constant contact quote, you know, air quotes from me to the stalker. And that's terrible. And it's

00:20:28.140 dangerous. And it's why we took it so seriously and it did escalate and it was bad. But in her case,

00:20:34.340 she signed an autograph. The guy got it in his head that there was some connection between them

00:20:38.460 and he shot her and she died. Um, and so you had to prosecute this guy with his team being like,

00:20:44.860 look, he was, he didn't form premeditation. You know, he showed up there. Obviously there's

00:20:49.040 something wrong with Robert Bardo. Come on, everybody can see that. And you managed to get

00:20:53.500 around that. As I understand it, like you, he sort of submitted some demonstration of how the alleged

00:20:59.440 encounter actually happened. And you saw holes in that demonstration that nobody else saw.

00:21:05.420 Yeah. So what happened is he, they videotaped his session with the, the doctor with Park Dietz

00:21:12.340 in which the doctor asked him questions about his state of mind and then asked him, you know,

00:21:17.480 how did it happen? Show me what happened. And so I'm watching him reenact. And it's like something

00:21:24.560 bumped me that that's weird. Rewind. What's bothering me? Rewind. And then I realized what it was.

00:21:34.180 He was showing that he approached her door and he had his hand behind his back. And as she opened the door,

00:21:41.520 he, he, he, yes, he opened the door, he pulls out the gun and then shoots her. And I thought, 0.73

00:21:50.480 oh my God, that's an ambush. That's premeditation. He came to the door prepared. He had the gun behind

00:21:58.380 his back. And so I was able to prove that this was a killing by means of lying in wait, which is a

00:22:04.640 special circumstance and gets you life without the possibility of role. So the argument was, no,

00:22:11.240 he wasn't hiding behind the bushes. But my argument legally was you do not have to hide behind the

00:22:16.180 door, behind the bushes and be physically obscured as long as your purpose is obscured and that you

00:22:22.160 lure somebody in by appearing to be harmless. And then, but you're prepared to kill. And the judge 0.93

00:22:30.120 bought it. The court of appeals bought it. Um, and he is now doing life without parole.

00:22:35.120 Good. You know, this reminds me of something. I moved last year, my family and I moved from

00:22:40.480 New York where I've spent my 51 years to Connecticut and I got a driver's license and,

00:22:48.100 you know, they ask you if you want to register to vote when you get your driver's license. And I said,

00:22:51.560 sure. Yeah, of course. And so you had to put down your address and my registration. Right. And I hadn't,

00:22:57.980 I've never done this because I, since I became a public figure and because thankfully for me,

00:23:01.760 my stalker came very early in my television career. So I learned very quickly, holy crap,

00:23:06.160 you really have to bend over backwards to protect yourself. So, um, I wasn't about to put my home 0.74

00:23:11.380 address on my license because very easily discoverable. And then I long story short was

00:23:17.080 rejected. My registration to vote was rejected because I had put down a PO box and they were like,

00:23:24.260 you can only register to vote if you put down your home address. I said, well, what if my PO box is,

00:23:28.920 you know, nearby my home? We don't make sure I'm not in a different jurisdiction. I understand that.

00:23:33.280 Nope. We need your actual home address for you to vote in Connecticut. I'm like,

00:23:36.580 this is insane. There are, forget people who are well-known thanks to television like me.

00:23:41.960 There are all these billionaire hedge fund, you know, movers and shakers who bad guys want to

00:23:47.500 kidnap. They want to kidnap their kids who have serious concerns about letting their public

00:23:52.940 address get out there. And it's not just Connecticut, Connecticut, LA and California are

00:23:57.780 leading the pack and protecting public figures from this because of people like you, because of cases

00:24:02.420 like this, you know, because there's a lot of celebrities living there, but the average state

00:24:06.560 is like mine where you, you can't, you lose your privilege to vote unless you're willing to reveal

00:24:11.320 exactly to the world where you live, your exact home, where your children are, where you,

00:24:15.060 it's really wrong. Yeah. Yeah. It is really wrong. And they need to find a way. I mean,

00:24:21.280 consider someone who's not famous, who's not rich, who doesn't have the means even to explore how

00:24:27.820 to do this. I mean, if it's just a woman whose ex-husband is going after her and she's moved to be 0.97

00:24:35.120 safe and to keep her children safe, she doesn't have access to whatever it takes to do this extra

00:24:41.400 layer of confidentiality. It's not so easy. So, I mean, California does have these means and they

00:24:47.140 have special means of registration so that you can vote, but a lot of places don't. And I really

00:24:54.120 think this should be a national thing that is required because in order to vote, you should

00:24:59.060 not have to surrender your safety in order to vote. That's just ridiculous. And think about it. 0.92

00:25:03.540 So you're basically legislating crime victims out of the voting rolls by having this policy.

00:25:09.780 Like what, what sense does that make? Well, I'm going to call you one of these days to get you

00:25:14.460 to help me to change the law in Connecticut because it's, it's ridiculous. And they really just, 0.54

00:25:18.200 I'd be happy to. Yeah. Thank you. I haven't. How could they resist the two of us? Good luck.

00:25:23.420 I don't know, but you know what? Here we come. That's right. That's right. So all of this is just by

00:25:29.940 way of background to show you, you had had a young lifetime of understanding crime from both sides,

00:25:36.960 of trying to do what's right against very bad actors and being fearless in the face of massive

00:25:44.020 challenges and putting them behind bars. And then along comes the OJ Simpson case. And I love the

00:25:50.120 fact that like me, you're not really a sports person apparently. And so when you first got the

00:25:55.140 very first call about this, they said, do you, do you know who OJ Simpson is? And your answer was no.

00:26:01.280 Oh, I did. No, I knew. Oh, you knew naked. You didn't know like the bills for the 49ers

00:26:10.040 for the Heisman trophy that no. What are those? That's amazing. So can I tell you in advance of

00:26:17.880 this interview, I was, I watched a little bit of, um, the people versus OJ Simpson, you know,

00:26:22.620 with Sarah Paulson as you, and, um, but I was trying to explain to the kids, they don't know who OJ

00:26:31.280 this would be kind of like if Tom Brady got arrested. Tom Brady's in a loving marriage with

00:26:37.680 his wife, Giselle, but I'm just saying this would be like somebody like Tom Brady got accused of

00:26:42.080 murdering his spouse or somebody very close to him. Like that's how famous OJ Simpson was. And,

00:26:47.680 and the other thing, Marsha, you tell me, but like the other thing I see similarity between those two

00:26:50.720 guys with all due respect to Tom, please is, um, beloved, almost universally beloved, of course,

00:26:57.520 not by sports rivals, but just as a personality in America. Oh yeah. OJ Simpson actually had another

00:27:04.320 layer to it. Um, that I learned throughout the case or learned very early on in the case,

00:27:11.260 he was somebody who came up from very hard scrabble life. You know, I mean, this was a very

00:27:16.540 rough childhood that he had for many, many reasons. And so he's a success story in the sense that he

00:27:22.960 overcame huge odds to become, uh, as famous as he was. And I mean, as, as incredibly accomplished

00:27:31.200 and talented as a sports figure as he was, I mean, I ultimately came to wound up watching the footage

00:27:38.540 of his, um, early career when they came out with the 30 for 30 piece. I don't know if you got to see

00:27:45.760 that, wasn't it? That was a great piece. Yeah. I thought it was amazing and watching him play and

00:27:51.320 like, holy shit, he's a, you know, phenom, he's a phenom. So there was this kind of, and then of 0.95

00:27:59.020 course there's the racial aspect where, you know, I mean, he's overcome the odds of being a black man

00:28:04.080 in a, in a world that was made it a lot harder to be than I think it is today though. It's far from

00:28:11.020 perfect. So I think it was really, there were so, there were so much to his persona and what he

00:28:17.640 achieved that made him, uh, an, an, an incredible icon for so, so many. And he, he was a very charming

00:28:25.380 guy. I mean, he really had enormous charisma. You know, you watch him in the 30 for 30 as he's

00:28:31.880 talking straight to camera and, and so self-deprecating and so charming. I get it. I get why he was as big as

00:28:39.880 he was. Hmm. Even, um, in the, you know, the, the docudrama people versus OJ Simpson, um, they're

00:28:47.980 showing like after the white Bronco chase, he's, he's getting out. And the first thing he says to

00:28:52.500 the cops is, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And he's saying to them on the phone, I know you just, you want to

00:28:56.500 go home to your kids. You know, that's, that was most of America's impression of him. Kind, caring,

00:29:04.420 caring about others. Like you say, self-deprecating, you know, this sort of gentle giant who overcame

00:29:10.620 incredible odds to become America's hero. And, and unlike some of these celebrities, no drunken

00:29:18.460 tapes that we knew at that point of him being belligerent or an ass or saying a bunch of terrible

00:29:25.180 things, you know, thinking of like Mel Gibson, nothing. It was just universally beloved guy.

00:29:31.780 So you go into this thing as the audience, as the people, as the jury pool thinking, nah,

00:29:39.920 nah, not this guy. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting back then, um, there were still not the ubiquitous

00:29:48.520 iPhones and, you know, cameras that people had in their pockets and, you know, abilities to record.

00:29:54.860 And so there were quite a few celebrities who were not all that they seem and they could be

00:30:01.460 not all that they seemed, um, and get away with it without people finding out that they

00:30:05.860 were actually behind the scenes. Not so great. Um, as we later learned, uh, way too many times

00:30:12.860 since then. Um, so people didn't know, I didn't know, I didn't know the good or the bad. Honestly,

00:30:18.580 I came into it. So very neutral. Um, but I just didn't know enough about him to, to know

00:30:25.420 that I should feel one way or another. So when, you know, when all of this started coming out,

00:30:31.900 it was a revelation to everyone, a bigger one for those who had this really great impression of him

00:30:38.040 that they defined, they discovered for the first time he'd been beating Nicole. He had,

00:30:42.580 there were some reports did come out about beating his first wife, that he was actually kind of a

00:30:49.560 boorish guy, uh, really, and treated Nicole very, very badly, um, in very ugly ways, a very, a spousal 1.00

00:30:56.020 abuser. He was, you know, a classic spousal abuser. And then the tapes came out that you could hear him 0.81

00:31:02.000 yelling at her. She's pregnant. He's calling her a fat pig. I mean, it was just disgusting one thing 1.00

00:31:07.680 after another, but it all got, it was all remained very quiet because she didn't want to, she really

00:31:13.980 didn't want to prosecute. Uh, the only one time she did, um, the national inquirer reported it,

00:31:19.380 but no one else picked up the story. So no one really knew. And all of this just started to come

00:31:24.220 out because of the criminal, because of the murders. Otherwise no one would ever found out.

00:31:29.360 Yeah. I mean, tell the audience what Denise Brown, her, her sister said when she found out that

00:31:36.020 Nicole had been murdered. Oh, she said he did it. I knew it. He did it. And she was like right away,

00:31:44.760 um, right on top of it. And she saw it coming, but she, you know, was behind the scenes with them.

00:31:50.300 They would, you know, have dinner together, spend time together. She had reason to know that he was

00:31:55.200 not the great guy, uh, that you saw on TV. Hmm. It's chilling. Um, Marsha mentions the 911 calls

00:32:03.140 that if you followed this trial at all, you you've heard, uh, that's how she began the case,

00:32:09.200 the people versus OJ Simpson on the, on the subject of his domestic violence against his wife of seven

00:32:16.520 years. Uh, here's one of those nine one one tapes, and then we'll go to break and have more with

00:32:21.760 Marsha, uh, right after this, listen to this nine one one call as we go out.

00:32:24.920 Nine one emergency. Can you get someone over here now to three, two, five Gretna green? He's back.

00:32:31.280 Please. Okay. What does he look like? He's OJ Simpson. I think you know his record. Could you

00:32:36.140 just take somebody over here? Okay. What is he doing there? He just drove up again. He just drove

00:32:41.600 up. Wait a minute. What kind of car is he in? He's in a white Bronco, but first of all,

00:32:45.600 he broke the back door down to get in. Okay. Wait a minute. What's your name? Nicole Simpson.

00:32:50.160 Okay. Is he the sportscaster or whatever? Yeah. Okay. Wait a minute. We're sending the police.

00:32:56.300 What is he doing? Is he threatening you? I'm going nuts. Okay. Has he threatened you in any way or

00:33:03.220 or is he just harassing you? You're going to hear him in a minute. He's about to go in again.

00:33:10.860 Okay. Just stay on the line. I don't want to stay on the line. He's going to beat the

00:33:13.600 wait a minute. Wait, just stay on the line so we can know what's going on until the police get there.

00:33:17.640 Okay. Hmm.

00:33:20.820 We'll be right back. Don't go away. More with Marsha Clark.

00:33:30.400 So Marsha, the LADA and the police were investigating OJ Simpson. There was a line

00:33:36.760 to the effect of, we went over there to notify him that his ex-wife had been murdered.

00:33:41.120 We didn't expect to watch him become a suspect before our very eyes. It was a trail of blood

00:33:45.620 leading from Nicole's house to his house. I mean, the truth is OJ was a terrible criminal.

00:33:50.720 He really did leave. And I obviously I'm showing my bias. I 100% believe that he did this.

00:33:55.720 But he left a trail of blood from the murders back to his own house. And the only way this

00:34:01.920 was discounted at trial was, well, there were a couple of different ways. The defense got up there

00:34:06.140 and tried to suggest the LA cops had planted the whole thing. There was some chemical in the blood

00:34:10.440 that they said show the LA police had had to have manipulated it. And they played the race card.

00:34:16.220 And as, as I think it was Robert Shapiro would later say, they played it from the bottom of the deck.

00:34:20.560 So, um, before we get to all that, you say, all right, let's get him. We're going to arrest him.

00:34:25.780 Have plenty. And then he flees. He flees. Robert Shapiro says, I'm going to, I'm going to bring him

00:34:31.760 in. Fear not. He doesn't bring him in. And he goes with his friend, AC, um, Al Cowling in a different

00:34:38.660 white Bronco. OJ owned one. So did his friend AC. And before we knew it, 100 million Americans at a

00:34:48.540 time when, as you point out, like we didn't have an iPhone that could just pop up and beep and say,

00:34:52.920 oh my God, turn on your TV. Somehow we all just got word to get in front of your TV. Oh my God.

00:34:58.020 A hundred million Americans watched this. This is sought for no report on anything other than

00:35:04.680 police staying, keeping a clear distance behind. There's no rule book on this because right here,

00:35:10.440 Pat, this hasn't happened yet. It seems to be that way. And it, uh, the traffic up above is still,

00:35:17.140 uh, in fact, I'm trying to look down through my, uh, lower window. It appears that CHP has stopped,

00:35:23.520 uh, traffic, uh, on the on-ramps coming onto the 91 westbound just to let the, uh, the officers proceed,

00:35:29.240 uh, at a, at a nice, uh, pace coming through here. Again, they don't want anything to happen,

00:35:33.900 uh, to this, uh, suspect vehicle. They want to try to keep it as safe as possible,

00:35:38.060 but, uh, there's definitely a crowd growing on every, uh, overpass that we see vehicles and people

00:35:44.800 that want to get a glimpse and see if, uh, this is in fact OJ coming down the, uh, the freeway.

00:35:51.180 911, what are you reporting?

00:35:52.860 This is, this is AC. I have OJ in the car.

00:35:55.980 Okay, where are you?

00:35:57.220 Please, I'm coming up the five freeways.

00:35:59.680 Okay.

00:36:00.140 Right now we all, we're okay, but you gotta tell the police that this is back off.

00:36:04.480 He's still alive, but he's got a gun to his head.

00:36:06.800 Is everything else okay?

00:36:08.380 Everything right now is okay, officer. Everything is okay. All about, he wants me to get it to his mom.

00:36:13.640 He wants me to get it to without him.

00:36:15.060 Okay.

00:36:15.880 So that's all I, that's all we have. He's got a gun to his head. 0.99

00:36:19.240 Okay, and then what's, what's your name?

00:36:20.900 My name is AC. You know who I am, goddammit. 0.97

00:36:24.260 Oh my god. 0.60

00:36:26.320 What did we learn from the slow-moving white Bronco chase?

00:36:31.640 Oh man.

00:36:33.180 So.

00:36:34.320 Trigger.

00:36:35.640 Yeah.

00:36:36.920 I don't know why. Yeah, a little bit triggering.

00:36:38.900 So the 9-1-1 tape from Nicole was more triggering, let me tell you.

00:36:43.000 That's just harrowing.

00:36:44.520 That it's just heartbreaking.

00:36:47.540 But watching that again, I'm struck by a few things.

00:36:51.780 Number one thing.

00:36:53.740 I'm talking to the two lead detectives in the case.

00:36:57.300 They have just arrested him, as far as I know.

00:37:01.680 They contacted him as he came home from the airport.

00:37:05.040 And as far as I knew, he was in handcuffs and he was at the station and they were interviewing him.

00:37:13.280 And then they came in to talk to me.

00:37:15.260 And I was going to ask, and I wanted to find out, what did he say?

00:37:18.400 You know, and how did he react?

00:37:20.100 And they told me, basically, it was a non-confession.

00:37:26.520 It was kind of a sliding all over the place, which, you know, happens.

00:37:31.440 It's actually pretty rare that a defendant says, you got me, I did it.

00:37:35.400 So, okay.

00:37:37.100 I said, okay, so where'd you book him?

00:37:39.580 And he goes, well, we didn't.

00:37:42.380 What do you mean you didn't?

00:37:43.820 Well, they booked him, but they released him.

00:37:45.960 You released him?

00:37:47.620 Why would you do that?

00:37:50.100 We have, we, even by then, had a mountain of evidence.

00:37:53.540 I mean, it was insane, the amount of evidence, as you put it.

00:37:57.160 So, rightly, Megan, he was a terrible criminal.

00:37:59.440 He did not do a very good job of this.

00:38:02.080 He left evidence everywhere, leading right up to his bedroom.

00:38:05.940 I mean, inside his bedroom. 0.94

00:38:07.460 It was ridiculous. 0.93

00:38:08.620 How could you possibly let him go? 0.90

00:38:11.120 And they said, oh, where can he go?

00:38:12.820 He's O.J. Simpson.

00:38:13.640 Everybody's going to recognize him.

00:38:15.460 And I was flabbergasted.

00:38:17.160 And, of course, then, that allowed the Bronco slow chase to happen, which I think was a galvanizing moment for a lot of people.

00:38:27.400 It became kind of this rolling snowball effect of people watching and jumping on and then going out to cheer and go.

00:38:38.460 You know, it just kind of this mania took hold.

00:38:41.280 And it became a cause to stand up for don't squeeze the juice kind of thing, which I don't know would have happened.

00:38:48.500 Had he gone into custody as he would have with any other person, any other defendant, you name them, they would have been in custody after all the evidence that we had.

00:38:57.780 Because, of course, he'd be a flight risk.

00:38:59.700 And he knows how much evidence there was.

00:39:02.100 There's all kinds of news reports.

00:39:03.500 People are talking about it endlessly.

00:39:04.880 It was hard to miss.

00:39:06.980 So that they let him go at that point for reasons I still don't understand.

00:39:12.360 But and then let him stay out for as long as they did.

00:39:16.840 Again, I think a lot of that had to do with a previous case.

00:39:20.440 And I don't want to get too deep in the weeds with this.

00:39:22.400 But it had to do with the Michael Jackson case and the beef that the police department had with our office for not filing charges and for endlessly investigating him up in Santa Barbara and convening the grand jury for as long as we did and then never bringing charges.

00:39:36.600 And I think they were afraid that might happen here.

00:39:39.500 Although the difference between the two cases was so stark, it was ridiculous.

00:39:44.280 Nevertheless, yeah, nevertheless, it caused this kind of feeling of mistrust.

00:39:47.980 And so they didn't want to they didn't trust us to file as soon as we could.

00:39:53.600 Again, I don't know why.

00:39:55.120 But anyway, that's in the OJ case.

00:39:57.600 And so literally had him red handed.

00:39:59.720 I think it was a turning point in the OJ case.

00:40:02.540 You literally had him red handed.

00:40:03.940 You caught him red hand.

00:40:04.560 He was bleeding from his knuckle with a bandage wrapped around his left left hand at one of the fingers of his left hand.

00:40:11.000 I mean, you literally caught him red handed.

00:40:12.120 There was one bloody glove at her house, Bundy, and one bloody glove at his house, Rockingham.

00:40:17.740 There was blood all over his white Ford Bronco, which had been parked back at his at his house, Rockingham.

00:40:23.220 You could see it smeared inside and outside.

00:40:25.400 The limo driver who'd been waiting to take him to the airport that night didn't see him.

00:40:29.700 He rang the doorbell.

00:40:30.520 Nobody was there.

00:40:31.300 Then suddenly saw a figure that looked just like OJ Simpson running in the back of the house.

00:40:35.580 His his tenant, Cato Kaelin, heard three thumps, very loud thumps, which is clearly OJ reentering the property right after the time of the murders.

00:40:43.620 You know, the blood evidence in his bedroom of hers and his. 0.99

00:40:47.000 I mean, it's like you you couldn't have asked for, you know, a stupider criminal. 0.94

00:40:50.960 Um, but again, they played the race card and I feel like now in 2022 America, don't we have a better appreciation for how that can work, how powerful it can be and how people can use it to completely ignore seemingly unignorable facts? 0.97

00:41:10.380 Oh, absolutely.

00:41:12.400 I think everybody's a lot smarter, but I will say this.

00:41:15.480 Back then, I was trying cases downtown for about 10 years.

00:41:19.760 And in the downtown court, as opposed to the branch courts that were in like the suburbs, we were used to seeing the race card being played.

00:41:27.520 That was a very common tactic.

00:41:29.580 And and it worked.

00:41:31.360 It worked more often than you want to know.

00:41:34.800 So it was not unfamiliar to me.

00:41:36.800 But this was a level beyond because he was so famous, because he had the imprimatur of this wonderful icon, this amazing guy.

00:41:45.100 We were fighting against that as well.

00:41:47.320 And then there was also, I think, a sense of we're not going to let you take him down because he is a symbol of success.

00:41:52.840 He is a symbol of overcoming all the obstacles that minorities do and have to to succeed.

00:41:58.620 So there was a huge like this impenetrable wall of we don't want to.

00:42:03.980 We just don't want to.

00:42:04.880 Yeah. And I think, you know, it also had to do with the rulings in court.

00:42:08.620 Look, I think in another with another judge, with a different set of circumstances where you really enforce the law as it's written, you wind up with a hung jury.

00:42:17.240 Probably. Probably.

00:42:18.840 But I don't think anybody in the DA's office, even most of us knew at best we'd get a hung jury.

00:42:24.540 That was the most that could be hoped for.

00:42:26.940 And probably if we retried it, hung again and then dismissed.

00:42:30.900 So, I mean, I think that was kind of in the cards from early on and became more and more apparent as time went by.

00:42:38.440 Was there a change of venue?

00:42:39.800 Right. Because this happened.

00:42:40.920 And was her house on Bundy in Brentwood?

00:42:44.340 I know he lived in Brentwood.

00:42:45.500 Was she in Brentwood?

00:42:46.700 Did the murders happen in Brentwood?

00:42:49.900 Yeah. Well, yeah, I think she was in Brentwood or on the border of.

00:42:53.220 But the problem was we could never have taken the case to Santa Monica because it was earthquake damage and it was a security risk.

00:43:00.740 And people were escaping from Santa Monica like the custody bus would pull up and the beach was right there.

00:43:06.520 And so it happened more than a few times that they would get out the bus and run.

00:43:11.960 And so if you can't secure a building when you have a high profile case like this, you have to bring the case downtown.

00:43:17.200 And they had a special floor, the ninth floor, that had surveillance cameras in the ceiling that were being monitored by the sheriffs inside the courthouse constantly.

00:43:27.460 And in a case like this, that was going to be high profile and going to be such a security risk, which it really was.

00:43:33.360 There was never a chance of filing it anywhere but downtown.

00:43:37.220 So there was no.

00:43:38.700 It wasn't even a discussion.

00:43:40.020 It wasn't even a thought.

00:43:41.440 Different jury pool when you when you go to L.A.

00:43:43.760 For sure.

00:43:44.500 No question.

00:43:45.420 Just a couple of years after after Rodney King, the beating of Rodney King, which was very public and the white officers were acquitted in that case, which led to the riots and a lot of bad blood.

00:43:57.340 And I think most people have acknowledged that at or around this time and certainly around the Rodney King beating, there was there was a serious problem of racism within the ranks of the LAPD.

00:44:08.240 So this was not imaginary.

00:44:09.340 And the black community had every right to be distrustful, angry. 1.00

00:44:14.480 You know, there's a second question about whether O.J. was really part of the black community, which we can talk about.

00:44:21.120 But just dealing with, you know, the actual community, they did have very good reason to distrust the cops.

00:44:26.500 Oh, yeah.

00:44:26.900 Oh, my goodness.

00:44:27.840 When the Rodney King verdict happened, it was somebody I was friendly with who was trying that case.

00:44:33.200 And I and he was devastated and it was shocking.

00:44:37.340 It was a shocking verdict to me.

00:44:39.200 And it was to all of us in the office.

00:44:41.000 I mean, and I actually reminded the jury, you know, we lost that case.

00:44:45.540 We tried that case.

00:44:47.420 We tried, you know, and unfortunately, the sentiment was at the time and this had, I think, a lot to do with the feelings among the jury pool at the time.

00:44:58.140 And we were picking a jury for the Simpson trial that, yeah, you can't trust the police and they band together.

00:45:04.060 And then you have the kind of the us versus them mentality because the white jury acquitted these officers who were shown on videotape.

00:45:11.780 It was it was one of those situations where it couldn't have been stacked more terribly in terms of polarizing the community.

00:45:20.860 And it was a very tough thing.

00:45:22.500 The irony, of course, was that in the O.J. Simpson case, the police officers were the ones that had the hardest time believing he was guilty.

00:45:29.680 One of the reasons I think they were they didn't want to bring him in for me to file the case and didn't want to put him in custody is they were still having a hard time.

00:45:38.660 They were still struggling with the belief that he could have done this.

00:45:42.320 And so when it came out with the theories of conspiracy and planting evidence, et cetera, these guys, are you kidding me?

00:45:49.280 It's the last thing they wanted to do.

00:45:50.900 They didn't want to believe it was true.

00:45:52.280 He was their hero, too.

00:45:53.940 So it was there were ironies.

00:45:57.220 He used to have them over to his house like he was chummy with the cops like they knew him as a celebrity and a great guy and not they had to disbelieve their lion eyes when they saw all the blood evidence and so on.

00:46:09.900 But, yeah, so that was a major factor for you.

00:46:12.020 Ultimately, at trial in L.A., it would be, as I recall, nine black jurors, one Hispanic or two Hispanics and one white.

00:46:21.180 Am I correct?

00:46:22.600 It didn't start that way.

00:46:24.200 We lost jurors.

00:46:25.560 So we had it was a it was a more balanced jury in terms of white and black and whatever it was.

00:46:32.720 But but they dropped like flies under the pressure of being sequestered and all the pressure of don't watch TV and don't read the book and don't do.

00:46:40.660 You know, it was very hard.

00:46:43.020 And so, yes, ultimately, I think that was the makeup of the jury.

00:46:45.680 As you've described it, it wound up being.

00:46:47.880 Hmm. Yeah.

00:46:49.560 So that was boy, you can see the setup for an uphill battle for you and Chris Darden.

00:46:55.200 And indeed, it was despite massive evidence.

00:46:59.580 And of course, now we have a civil jury in a separate case saying, indeed, he murdered them both.

00:47:04.120 As any sane person knows.

00:47:06.440 OK, stand by.

00:47:07.800 We have much, much more with Marsha Clark ahead. 0.89

00:47:09.180 We're going to get into the trial.

00:47:10.660 We're going to get into Chris Darden, Johnny Cochran, the gloves.

00:47:14.560 If they don't fit, you must acquit and all of it.

00:47:17.900 And then we'll talk to her later in the show about what she thinks about crime enforcement today in L.A.

00:47:22.780 This guy, Gascon, not going to get recalled after all.

00:47:25.320 Does she have thoughts on that?

00:47:26.680 Stand by as we go deep with Marsha Clark.

00:47:29.600 Don't forget, folks, you can find the Megyn Kelly show live on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 111 every weekday at noon east and the full video show and clips by subscribing to our YouTube channel.

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00:47:50.820 When we watch the O.J. Simpson white Bronco, slow moving white Bronco, we see people cheering him from the overpasses.

00:48:03.080 That was one of the shocking things.

00:48:04.500 You know, you you got two people dead.

00:48:06.640 Nicole Brown Simpson was nearly decapitated. 0.98

00:48:10.320 Ron Goldman had nothing to do with this.

00:48:12.480 He was there to drop off sunglasses that she or her family member had left at his restaurant.

00:48:17.040 He was a waiter and it appears to have just showed up wrong time, wrong place.

00:48:21.940 And they're cheering him.

00:48:24.260 They're cheering O.J.'s fleeing the police with a gun to his head. 0.82

00:48:29.020 I mean, it's just something sick about America with our obsession with celebrity, I guess.

00:48:33.760 I don't think they would have been cheering some random some random Joe Simpson.

00:48:38.020 What do you think?

00:48:39.320 I agree.

00:48:40.020 I agree.

00:48:41.180 I think that's exactly right.

00:48:42.480 And it's it is kind of I found myself very shocked and and very upset at seeing it.

00:48:49.840 It's like, wait a minute.

00:48:51.840 He's not you realize we didn't just announce that he rejoined the NFL.

00:48:56.640 You realize that he is actually being accused of a double homicide, a hideous double homicide.

00:49:03.260 Why are you cheering?

00:49:04.680 You don't even know what the evidence is.

00:49:06.420 And it did strike me that it was just it was really kind of a mentality of I don't care.

00:49:13.520 He's famous.

00:49:14.520 I like him.

00:49:15.700 I love him.

00:49:17.380 I remember all the great things he did as a player.

00:49:20.180 And I remember a naked gun.

00:49:21.740 And I remember, you know, that sort of thing.

00:49:23.360 And they didn't care.

00:49:24.020 And it felt that way to me largely throughout the trial, that these two poor victims were

00:49:32.140 basically dismissed, ignored and and thrown away by so many who just who only cared about

00:49:39.700 the celebrity.

00:49:40.780 And now don't get me wrong.

00:49:42.160 There were millions who did care and came out to show their support and, you know, wore the

00:49:47.220 angel pins and really understood that they were this is a homicide case. 1.00

00:49:50.760 This is not about the Hall of Fame for the NFL player of the year.

00:49:56.060 But there were many who didn't see that there were two victims involved here.

00:49:59.960 And it felt like we were always pushing that boulder uphill to try and remind people of

00:50:05.600 what this was all about, what why we were here today.

00:50:08.920 The cameras are not in the courtroom because he just scored a winning touchdown, you know,

00:50:13.200 and that it felt very hard to keep people focused on that.

00:50:16.660 Again, let me say, not all people by any means and many, many who understood the difference.

00:50:23.460 But there were quite a few who didn't care.

00:50:26.240 But a shocking number who were against the prosecution.

00:50:29.680 And I know you wrote in the book about how your lines were ringing off the hook at the

00:50:33.680 DA's office from people supporting him, mad that you brought the prosecution.

00:50:37.200 It's just like it's so crazy to think about it.

00:50:40.060 But yeah, I mean, that we're still divided on the verdict.

00:50:42.520 We certainly were divided on, you know, black and white reaction to the verdict and so on.

00:50:46.940 That became a part of the case as well.

00:50:49.300 Meanwhile, OJ had been accused by Nicole of domestic violence in the past.

00:50:53.600 He had one sort of slap on the wrist encounter with law enforcement as a result.

00:50:58.200 As I understand it, that's where Mark Furman first had his encounter with OJ.

00:51:02.280 He had been called to the house on one of those.

00:51:05.380 And as you say, one of the 911 calls reflects an angry OJ.

00:51:10.360 This is how you guys chose to open your case to try to convince the jury.

00:51:14.460 I'm to try to shake some of this imagery loose.

00:51:17.700 He's not just the juice from the Hertz commercials and the Heisman and all that stuff.

00:51:21.920 This guy has a very violent side and it tends to get unleashed on his wives, his domestic partners.

00:51:29.180 And here was evidence of that.

00:51:30.400 He's unwilling to try to kill the city and find them.

00:51:34.060 I have to do with that.

00:51:35.020 Okay.

00:51:35.060 Okay, the kids! Okay! Okay, the kids are too few!

00:51:45.060 Let's go to Hinesman, 4-2-2-1-R-D-8-25, children of all.

00:51:49.060 Did you hear about the kids when you started to sit in the living room?

00:51:51.060 They were here! Did you hear about the kids' kids?

00:51:55.060 Oh, it's different now! I'm talking 2-2-1-2!

00:52:00.060 If you want to check your head, 2-2-1-2!

00:52:04.060 Just stay on the line, okay?

00:52:06.060 Ask me about that!

00:52:08.060 Is he upset with something that you did?

00:52:11.060 Hmm, it's terrifying.

00:52:14.060 Horrifying. And think about this.

00:52:16.060 This guy is big.

00:52:19.060 Mr. Simpson is over six foot, you know, burly, big muscles.

00:52:25.060 I mean, you know, this is somebody who is a very powerful, very, you know, imposing figure.

00:52:31.060 And this is the guy who's yelling and screaming at you and raising a fist.

00:52:36.060 And the fist is as big as your head.

00:52:38.060 And I hear Nicole in there responding to the dispatcher who's saying,

00:52:43.060 stay on the lane, stay on the line.

00:52:45.060 And, you know, all she wants to do is run and hide, which, by the way, she frequently had to, to get away. 1.00

00:52:51.060 And what a terrifying situation.

00:52:53.060 She's, as Gavin put it, Ron Goldman was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

00:52:58.060 And Nicole was in the wrong place for a long time.

00:53:01.060 And, you know, she kept getting kind of short trips from law enforcement.

00:53:06.060 You know, he, they, she would call the police.

00:53:08.060 They would show up.

00:53:09.060 He'd sign a football and they'd walk away.

00:53:11.060 And even Mark Furman was called to the house because she was sitting in the car and the, and OJ Simpson took a baseball bat to the windshield and smashed it in front of her.

00:53:23.060 Terrifying situation.

00:53:24.060 And Mark Furman showed up and saw the smashed windshield and simply wrote him what we call an FI card, field identification card, no arrest.

00:53:33.060 You know, this happened again and again and again.

00:53:37.060 And the reason was because he was a beloved figure by the police as well.

00:53:41.060 And they didn't want to believe it either.

00:53:43.060 And of course, domestic violence was not taken seriously back then.

00:53:46.060 Um, crimes against women not taken very seriously back then.

00:53:50.060 And it, that in that sense, I think things have gotten better, not perfect, but it's getting better.

00:53:57.060 Uh, but back then it was very easy for people to sweep things under the rug.

00:54:01.060 And so women frequently did abandon the case and recant their statement because they couldn't expect to get justice, uh, in, in the courts. 1.00

00:54:10.060 So, and you're poking the bear.

00:54:11.060 I understand.

00:54:12.060 So you're not going to get a result and you're poking the bear.

00:54:15.060 You know, we were talking about earlier, my own research and does one get a temporary restraining order?

00:54:20.060 Because I remember reading a case where a woman got a temporary restraining order against her stalker.

00:54:25.060 And again, to your point, your stalker can be your ex-husband or it can be a stranger.

00:54:29.060 And the next thing you know, he stabbed her and the TRO was in between the knife in her chest.

00:54:34.060 And so it can be, it can be very aggravating and it's dangerous for a domestic violence victim of any kind to bring law enforcement in.

00:54:42.060 Sadly, it is.

00:54:43.060 It's dangerous for them.

00:54:44.060 It has to be a calculated decision.

00:54:46.060 And so she's done it a number of times.

00:54:49.060 She hasn't, no real result has happened.

00:54:51.060 It infuriates him more.

00:54:53.060 Um, and so you can, you can understand, but, but she did, she did more than just that to the pictures. 0.53

00:54:58.060 I will never forget you saying to the jury, well, you'd shown them her, her bruised face.

00:55:04.060 Um, and this is before the iPhone.

00:55:07.060 I know people think about the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard thing, and they think Amber may have faked those photos.

00:55:11.060 I have no idea what Amber Heard did, but Nicole Brown Simpson didn't fake those photos of her bruised and bloody face. 1.00

00:55:16.060 And there wasn't even a suggestion otherwise.

00:55:18.060 And she, I'll never forget you saying to the jury about her will, her will.

00:55:23.060 And you were saying, who does that at her age, who goes and does the last will and testament and puts it in a safe box in the bank with her bruised face photos.

00:55:34.060 Like she's trying to tell us something from the grave.

00:55:37.060 Yeah, exactly right.

00:55:40.060 And as a matter of fact, we have now changed the rules of evidence to allow for the admission of these kinds of statements that are, you know, I know he's going to kill me.

00:55:49.060 Uh, or writings that are, you know, in a journal, I know he's going to do this.

00:55:53.060 Um, she had written quite a few things in her journal about the abuse that she suffered and about, uh, her belief that he was going to kill her.

00:56:01.060 She was aware of it.

00:56:02.060 She was aware of it.

00:56:03.060 Denise was aware of it.

00:56:04.060 Um, now we, we do get that kind of information before the jury, but yeah, I mean, it was a very telling thing.

00:56:11.060 I, it was very clear to me.

00:56:13.060 She was writing her own epitaph.

00:56:15.060 Hmm.

00:56:16.060 My God.

00:56:17.060 The, one of the unfortunate pieces of the trial and you've made a reference to it earlier was the judge.

00:56:23.060 Judge Lance Ito was a disaster pretty much on every front.

00:56:28.060 I mean, he, he became a national laughingstock afterward for good reason.

00:56:32.060 And one of the things that was rather irritating, I mean, it wasn't his main failure, his, you know, we'll talk about his main failure, but one of the things that was very irritating about Judge Ito was his treatment of you versus his treatment of all the other lawyers in the courtroom who happened to be male.

00:56:46.060 And I'm not somebody who's constantly waving the feminism card and I, and you are never somebody to play the victim. 0.79

00:56:52.060 I've read and seen your interviews for years now, but there's no question that he was a prick to you. 0.96

00:56:57.060 And I, you know, without evidence of what the other reason was, I think, I think he was a misogynist. 0.94

00:57:04.060 Yeah, I agree.

00:57:06.060 I do agree.

00:57:07.060 Well said, Megan.

00:57:09.060 I have to say it was, you know, it was a remarkable thing.

00:57:12.060 It kind of made me laugh because I bigger fish to fry.

00:57:15.060 Right.

00:57:16.060 I mean, really, we have two victims here. 0.91

00:57:18.060 Um, but it was one of those ridiculous and very obvious things. 0.51

00:57:22.060 Mr. Cochran, Mr. Darden, Marsha. 0.69

00:57:25.060 What?

00:57:26.060 Wait, what? 0.86

00:57:27.060 Gross. 0.80

00:57:28.060 And, you know, the remarks about my hair and skirts and whatever, it was a horrible, you know, example of a male on the bench.

00:57:36.060 There are so many good judges and there were, you know, I was really hoping to get one of them.

00:57:41.060 And it was unfortunate that we wound up.

00:57:43.060 And this is the hard part.

00:57:45.060 When you, what we call lay paper, when you, uh, peremptorily challenge a judge, you only get one.

00:57:51.060 And there were others who could have been worse.

00:57:53.060 So when we talk, when Bill and I talked about, well, what do we do?

00:57:56.060 Do we accept Lance Edo or not?

00:57:58.060 He said, well, I think he's okay.

00:58:00.060 And he had had Lance on his, um, case against Keating.

00:58:04.060 Well, Bill's a man. 0.67

00:58:06.060 Keating was kind of the devil.

00:58:08.060 It was not the same case, uh, not the same situation as the Simpson trial.

00:58:13.060 So there was that, but really far and away, what was worse to me was the manner in which he, he run, ran the courtroom, which is to say he did not.

00:58:22.060 He handed the reins to Johnny Cochran and Johnny ran with it.

00:58:25.060 Um, which is why when people say, aren't you angry with the defense and the way Johnny ran the case, I said, no, I I'm not.

00:58:31.060 He did.

00:58:32.060 The defense will always take advantage to the greatest extent possible.

00:58:36.060 They're representing their client.

00:58:37.060 And if you have judge who's inclined to let the defense rewrite the rules of evidence and the rules of trial procedure, uh, you're screwed because the judge is the final arbiter.

00:58:47.060 He had the power to prevent it.

00:58:49.060 He didn't.

00:58:50.060 Not only did he do not, but he encouraged it and he made some of the most outrageous rulings I had ever seen.

00:58:55.060 Uh, eventually I did call him on it at the very end when he was going to allow the defense to comment outrageously on Mark Furman's, uh, taking the fifth, which is a known thing.

00:59:07.060 You're not allowed to do.

00:59:08.060 It has been established.

00:59:09.060 It has been established.

00:59:10.060 This is what we call horn book law, uh, from centuries ago.

00:59:14.060 You do not get to comment on someone who invokes his fifth amendment, right?

00:59:18.060 Because other, you could do that and say, Hey, he invoked his right to remain silent.

00:59:22.060 Doesn't that make him sound guilty?

00:59:23.060 Then why have a fifth amendment at all?

00:59:25.060 So they were going to allow him to them to capitalize on his invoking the fifth.

00:59:30.060 Then before the jury, uh, questioned him about it.

00:59:33.060 And I said, this is just too outrageous.

00:59:34.060 It doesn't matter anymore.

00:59:35.060 The case is lost, but I can't stand it.

00:59:37.060 Uh, this is your final bad ruling.

00:59:39.060 And I took it up on a writ immediately, which he tried to prevent and tried to deny us the time.

00:59:46.060 And at which point I said, you're denying the people the right to a fair trial.

00:59:49.060 He eventually capitulated and the court of appeal wrote back immediately and said, you will not allow this.

00:59:55.060 You will stop this trial because Johnny kept extending and extending and saying, we'll never rest.

01:00:00.060 We'll never rest.

01:00:01.060 No other judge would put up with that nonsense.

01:00:03.060 Look, no other, most judges would never have allowed race to be made a part of the case to begin with,

01:00:08.060 because it had nothing to do with this trial.

01:00:10.060 He didn't kill her because she was white.

01:00:12.060 You know, it had nothing to do with anything.

01:00:15.060 And yet they were allowed to completely subvert justice by bringing in an issue that had nothing to do with the evidence,

01:00:21.060 nothing to do with the motives or the real parties involved. 0.99

01:00:24.060 So it was the worst possible situation because he himself was, as they say, a star fucker. 0.97

01:00:31.060 And so he was much more wedded to the side of the case that was famous. 0.97

01:00:36.060 And it was a bizarre thing to watch a judge abdicate completely his role as the the the captain of the ship.

01:00:45.060 Yeah. And the neutral arbiter, you know, calling balls and strikes and not not keeping the thumb on the scale.

01:00:50.060 Before we get to him and the race ruling, because that really is.

01:00:53.060 That was critical.

01:00:54.060 Just a moment on you and your experience before him.

01:00:57.060 You're you think back on how sexist we were and just openly, openly sexist, judging your looks at every turn.

01:01:04.060 The CNN nonstep coverage.

01:01:06.060 Fox News was around.

01:01:07.060 MSNBC had just launched like all these 24 seven cable channels at CNN and Court TV in particular.

01:01:12.060 Went wall to wall with it.

01:01:13.060 Huge numbers.

01:01:14.060 Right. That's of course what you're going to do.

01:01:16.060 You get huge numbers made stars out of people like Greta Van Susteren, Geraldo.

01:01:21.060 My pal Dan Abrams was covering a lot of lawyers up and coming became stars as a result of this.

01:01:26.060 Jeffrey Toobin. That's where we first started really hearing about him anyway.

01:01:30.060 So your hair, it went from curly to straight.

01:01:35.060 Right. I'm trying to think we're going from straight to curly.

01:01:37.060 Right. That's in the middle of the trial.

01:01:39.060 No, curly to straight.

01:01:40.060 OK, guys, I get it confused, but it caused the thing.

01:01:44.060 It caused the thing.

01:01:45.060 And I think we have a clip from the again.

01:01:48.060 This is Sarah Paulson portraying you in the people versus OJ.

01:01:50.060 Yeah, here. Here's a little soundbite reenacting what happened.

01:01:53.060 Soundbite six.

01:01:57.060 We're walking in.

01:01:59.060 Curly.

01:02:11.060 Good morning, Miss Clark.

01:02:13.060 I think.

01:02:23.060 Oh, so annoying.

01:02:32.060 So that's Judge Ito choosing to sort of mock.

01:02:36.060 I mean, he was obviously trying to mock your hair like you're unrecognizable and not in a fun, playful way.

01:02:42.060 Just in a, you know, look at you.

01:02:44.060 I think it's you.

01:02:45.060 Yeah, snarky.

01:02:46.060 While all the defense lawyers are staring at you.

01:02:48.060 Must have felt terrible. 0.97

01:02:50.060 It was ridiculous. 0.56

01:02:53.060 Just I. 0.84

01:02:54.060 That's really what I felt.

01:02:55.060 It was one of those.

01:02:56.060 Actually, they kind of flipped it in that clip you saw.

01:03:00.060 What really happened was.

01:03:02.060 I had two little kids in diapers.

01:03:04.060 I was.

01:03:05.060 I decided to do a perm because I want to wash and wear hair.

01:03:08.060 I didn't want to have to blow it out.

01:03:09.060 I didn't want to be bothered.

01:03:11.060 And then it grew out.

01:03:12.060 The perm grew out.

01:03:14.060 And the media, the media coordinator at DA's office said, you need to get your hair cut.

01:03:21.060 And my hairdresser said, stop with the perm already. 0.97

01:03:24.060 You're not.

01:03:25.060 You have straight hair.

01:03:26.060 Stop perming it.

01:03:27.060 And I said, I can't stop now.

01:03:29.060 I all I want to do is make it easy to deal with.

01:03:31.060 He said, OK, then I'm going to cut it.

01:03:33.060 So we've got shorter, but the change came and he made, you know, made the remark that

01:03:38.060 he did because at some point I didn't have time to go to the hairdresser to re perm my

01:03:43.060 hair.

01:03:44.060 It's growing out.

01:03:45.060 It's naturally straight.

01:03:46.060 I had no choice but to then blow it out and just let it be straight because I couldn't

01:03:49.060 go back and get another perm.

01:03:51.060 So I go into court thinking, ah, no one will notice.

01:03:55.060 And who cares?

01:03:57.060 Like what?

01:03:58.060 Who cares?

01:03:59.060 Yes.

01:04:00.060 Yeah.

01:04:01.060 Time.

01:04:02.060 That's in the middle of a double murder trial.

01:04:05.060 I mean, I will say for our listening audience, because we're airing live on Sirius XM Triumph

01:04:09.060 channel right now.

01:04:10.060 Marsha looks amazing.

01:04:11.060 She's got her hair is long and it's beautiful and it's straight right now.

01:04:13.060 And it is impossible that you're 68 years old.

01:04:15.060 It is impossible.

01:04:16.060 I don't know what you've done, what what kind of magic juice you're drinking, but I want

01:04:20.060 it.

01:04:21.060 I want it tomorrow.

01:04:22.060 We'll talk later.

01:04:23.060 So in any event, that was just one example.

01:04:25.060 But I do want to mention this is I you became a hero to a lot of working moms, single moms.

01:04:31.060 Going through a nasty divorce custody dispute.

01:04:33.060 Your husband ratchets it up while he sees you on trial and the most stressful trial of your

01:04:38.060 life of any prosecutor's life ever.

01:04:40.060 So he wasn't being very kind to you.

01:04:42.060 You did not want to lose custody of your two young boys.

01:04:44.060 And you had told Judge Ito at the beginning of the trial, I this is what time I can work

01:04:49.060 until I'm a single mom.

01:04:51.060 I work very hard.

01:04:52.060 This is what time I need the trial to wrap.

01:04:53.060 I was like four o'clock or five o'clock in the afternoon.

01:04:55.060 And one day he was going to let it go late in the evening.

01:04:58.060 And here again is this is the actual you, I think.

01:05:02.060 Right.

01:05:03.060 That's my producers.

01:05:04.060 Yeah.

01:05:05.060 This is the actual you because Johnny Cochran later convinced you because you went to him

01:05:10.060 and you're like, I'm leaving.

01:05:11.060 I'm leaving it for as we agreed.

01:05:12.060 And he's like, OK.

01:05:13.060 And then Johnny Cochran accused you of using your children as an excuse the next week.

01:05:20.060 You didn't like how the ruling had worked out and he thought you were manipulating the

01:05:24.060 court.

01:05:25.060 And boom, here's Marsha Clark soundbite five. 0.98

01:05:29.060 I'm offended as a woman, as a single parent and as a prosecutor and an officer of the court

01:05:34.060 to hear an argument posed by counsel like that.

01:05:37.060 Mr. Cochran today.

01:05:39.060 Some of us have child care issues and they are serious and they are paramount.

01:05:44.060 Obviously, Mr. Cochran cannot understand that.

01:05:47.060 But he should not come before this court and impugn the integrity of someone who does have

01:05:52.060 those considerations.

01:05:54.060 And I'm deeply offended.

01:05:56.060 That is ballsy in 1994, 95.

01:05:59.060 That was a ballsy thing to do.

01:06:02.060 You know, I mean, I think I was just so pissed off, Megan.

01:06:07.060 And there were there were moments during that trial when I said things that I really meant.

01:06:11.060 And, you know, go figure, you know, on a personal level.

01:06:15.060 You know what I mean?

01:06:16.060 What I mean?

01:06:17.060 That sounded so bad.

01:06:18.060 No, no.

01:06:19.060 I know what you mean.

01:06:20.060 It's a bad soundbite.

01:06:21.060 But what I mean is you don't talk about yourself on a personal level when you're in court in

01:06:26.060 terms of how you feel about the case.

01:06:28.060 You talk about it legally speaking.

01:06:29.060 I think he's guilty.

01:06:30.060 I think the evidence shows this.

01:06:32.060 I think this is irrelevant or this is relevant.

01:06:34.060 But to have to talk about yourself on a personal level is a rather uncomfortable thing.

01:06:39.060 And I was never in the position to have to do that before.

01:06:42.060 So I was kind of angry on both levels.

01:06:45.060 Why are you doing this to me?

01:06:47.060 And why that I should even be talking about myself as a person in this context when we

01:06:52.060 have two dead victims is outrageous and should not be allowed.

01:06:57.060 And his comments should not have been allowed.

01:06:59.060 I get why he did it.

01:07:01.060 I don't think it worked for him.

01:07:03.060 Ultimately, I think that he didn't do it again.

01:07:06.060 But it was a very upsetting thing to be in the limelight in the crosshairs that way.

01:07:11.060 It's one thing to impugn me as a prosecutor and say, you know, she she the arguments lousy. 1.00

01:07:17.060 It's weak.

01:07:18.060 Whatever.

01:07:19.060 I don't I disagree with our view of the law.

01:07:21.060 But to go after someone personally like that, that was not kosher to say the least.

01:07:27.060 And just so the audience knows, in the midst of all this, the ex-husband's mother, your

01:07:32.060 ex-mother in law released topless photos of you.

01:07:35.060 Now everyone's Googling it, Marsha in Saint Tropez, which like years earlier.

01:07:41.060 Right. It's like see Marsha Clark's breasts. 1.00

01:07:44.060 You know, like the amount of shit being thrown your way outside of the courthouse is truly 1.00

01:07:49.060 like it's amazing. 0.99

01:07:50.060 But I love it because you are so strong and you never let him see you sweat.

01:07:55.060 And you had a higher calling that you were devoted to.

01:07:58.060 And I'm sure your sons are very proud of you.

01:08:01.060 I think it's the two boys.

01:08:02.060 In any event, I feel for you as a woman in today's day and age and who was, you know,

01:08:06.060 coming up behind you.

01:08:07.060 I appreciate how you dealt with it all.

01:08:09.060 OK, let's get into the trial a little bit because you mentioned Judge Ito's ruling on

01:08:13.060 race.

01:08:14.060 And I think most people are like, why wouldn't why wouldn't we be talking about race?

01:08:19.060 Furman was the lead cop.

01:08:20.060 One of them.

01:08:21.060 He's the one who found the bloody glove at OJ's house, which was a critical piece of

01:08:24.060 evidence.

01:08:25.060 And Furman got caught on tape saying the N word a bunch of times.

01:08:29.060 Why?

01:08:30.060 Why wouldn't that be relevant? 0.96

01:08:31.060 The defendant's black. 0.52

01:08:33.060 So, yeah. 0.65

01:08:34.060 So here's what happened.

01:08:36.060 Initially, nobody knew that Furman had said all these really messed up, horrifying things.

01:08:41.060 No one knew about that.

01:08:43.060 What we did know was that he was the one who found a very damning piece of evidence.

01:08:48.060 He found the bloody glove that matched the one at Bundy under the air conditioner at on

01:08:52.060 the sidewalk of at the side of Simpson's house.

01:08:56.060 And I mean, that really tied him directly to the crime and get to the murders.

01:09:01.060 And so they were going to have to discredit Mark Furman somehow.

01:09:05.060 Well, it was very hard to do because the truth of the matter is there were about 15,

01:09:11.060 20 cops at the Bundy scene before Mark Furman even showed up because the patrol cops show up

01:09:17.060 first.

01:09:18.060 They come, they secure the scene and the detectives show up later and they start to guide things,

01:09:23.060 you know, and decide what they want to look into and how to which evidence they want to

01:09:27.060 gather, et cetera, et cetera.

01:09:29.060 So by the time Furman got there, at least 15 cops had said, I was at Bundy.

01:09:34.060 There was only one glove there.

01:09:36.060 Only one glove.

01:09:37.060 And they were trying to sell the notion that Furman showed up, found two gloves and moved

01:09:43.060 one of them to Rockingham to frame O.J. Simpson.

01:09:46.060 Okay.

01:09:47.060 It's a crazy theory that makes no sense.

01:09:50.060 There's no evidence to back it up, nor ever could be.

01:09:53.060 And so when they wanted to, I said, look, if you can prove that it's possible for him,

01:09:58.060 for there to have been two gloves there and for someone to have then secretly moved one

01:10:03.060 of them.

01:10:04.060 Both of these things, by the way, impossible to prove because it never happened.

01:10:08.060 But if that were true, then Furman's bias and inclination to try and frame someone that

01:10:14.060 he arguably didn't like because of his race.

01:10:17.060 I understand.

01:10:18.060 Okay.

01:10:19.060 There's motive to do something terrible and frame someone.

01:10:22.060 But if you can't, if there is no evidence whatsoever, no possibility that there was ever

01:10:27.060 a second glove at Bundy that could have been moved, then what is the relevance of his

01:10:32.060 motivation?

01:10:33.060 There's none because he couldn't have there.

01:10:35.060 He could not frame him.

01:10:36.060 So no matter how he may have felt about Simpson, it's irrelevant.

01:10:39.060 That was true.

01:10:41.060 And initially the judge ruled in our favor and said, no, there will be no evidence of

01:10:45.060 race because there is no evidence that he could have, there was a second glove to move.

01:10:49.060 And then the pundits came out roaring.

01:10:53.060 I can't remember which ones, but you know, screaming about how this is not fair.

01:10:58.060 You can't keep race out of the picture. 0.64

01:11:00.060 It's not, it's highly relevant.

01:11:02.060 You're trying to skew this in favor of the prosecution.

01:11:06.060 And the next day capitalizing on that tidal wave of media coverage, F. Lee Bailey basically

01:11:15.060 just got it and screamed at the judge, adding no new evidence. 0.94

01:11:18.060 And of course, not being able to prove anything like the possibility of a second glove existing

01:11:23.060 at Bundy never even came close.

01:11:25.060 And the judge just reversed himself and said, okay, I'm going to let it in.

01:11:28.060 And that's where it stood.

01:11:31.060 And was that the argument that you just described over the author who had Furman on tape?

01:11:38.060 She consulted with him.

01:11:39.060 She was writing a book about crime and she had Furman on tape using the N word.

01:11:43.060 Was that, was that argument as you just described it over her book evidence?

01:11:48.060 I mean, her tape evidence.

01:11:50.060 No, her, she came out way, way, way later.

01:11:53.060 At that time, it was really only about a couple of people, not very many, one or two that were

01:11:59.060 saying, I heard him say the N word.

01:12:01.060 When he arrested me, when he talked about something, one was an arrestee and one was not.

01:12:07.060 It wasn't a whole bunch.

01:12:08.060 It was that kind of thing.

01:12:09.060 It wasn't until months later.

01:12:11.060 And we're talking nearly the end of the trial that this woman came forward to say, I've been taping my sessions with Mark Furman and here are the tapes.

01:12:21.060 He was using the N word and talking about abusing African-American men repeatedly in his exploits as a, as a detective and as a patrol officer.

01:12:33.060 And no one knew about those tapes until she came forward and the defense and she went for, she came forward to the defense.

01:12:40.060 I, I do know that the Hollywood writers, because she was hoping for a career in Hollywood and the Hollywood writers band together and said, you will never work in this town.

01:12:50.060 And, um, she never did, but her, but her tape certainly came into evidence.

01:12:55.060 I will say that.

01:12:56.060 And it was one of the most horrifying, uh, days I'd ever spent in court, uh, listening to the filth that was on those tapes.

01:13:05.060 It was just devastating, ugly, ugly stuff of, of a critical witness for your side.

01:13:14.060 It's critical, you know, and with the, with the racial charge already behind you for all the reasons we've discussed, my God, this was the last thing you needed.

01:13:21.060 So what, what do you make of Furman?

01:13:23.060 Now I knew him at Fox news.

01:13:25.060 Uh, we used him for commentary on the missing case of this baby Lisa.

01:13:29.060 And I found his analysis and he's a Fox news contributor to be so insightful and so interesting.

01:13:36.060 There was no racial element at all in this case.

01:13:38.060 It was just a detective calling it as he saw it.

01:13:41.060 And there was definitely some pushback.

01:13:43.060 Some people didn't believe Fox news should have hired him as a contributor.

01:13:46.060 Um, but what do you, what do you make of him?

01:13:49.060 I have mixed bag that he's a good detective.

01:13:54.060 He did good work.

01:13:55.060 He, he knew what he was doing.

01:13:57.060 He knew how to guide an investigation.

01:13:59.060 He certainly was telling the truth about his role in the Simpson case.

01:14:03.060 Um, and I, and I say this because it was corroborated by at least a dozen other officers, uh, about what had happened that night, what they found and how they found it.

01:14:13.060 So there's that, um, and I would not ask anyone to take his word for it, having heard the tapes and heard what he has said and done.

01:14:22.060 Uh, but he, his word was corroborated and he is smart.

01:14:26.060 However, you know, the, the fact that he did not tell us that he had been recording these, uh, tapes with this author and he knew it's not something that he forgot.

01:14:38.060 In fact, on those tapes was a meeting he had with her after the case broke, after he testified at the preliminary hearing on the Simpson case, talking about those tapes and talking about how he was going to capitalize on his role in the case.

01:14:53.060 And she was going to write this book and, uh, that sort of thing.

01:14:56.060 So it's not as though, Oh, I made these tapes a million years ago and forgot.

01:14:59.060 He was very well aware of it and it was ongoing.

01:15:02.060 Um, so I, I have to say the fact that he did not tell us and, and, and therefore hid it from everyone made it so much worse because at least I could have said, okay, look, we've got these tapes.

01:15:16.060 He will tell you himself.

01:15:17.060 And so will she, I don't know that any of this is true by the way, apparently that was investigated.

01:15:22.060 All the incidents that he was supposedly was involved in were never proven to have happened.

01:15:26.060 And he was embellishing for the benefit of this author, uh, who wanted lured stories and he gave them to her.

01:15:32.060 Hmm.

01:15:33.060 So, you know, as a person, I don't have a lot of respect for Mark Furman as a person. 0.87

01:15:39.060 I think, um, his attitudes about African Americans, about minorities, about women, uh, are disgusting and really horrifying.

01:15:49.060 But, um, as a detective, he was able to do a good job and did do a good job actually. 0.85

01:15:54.060 Wow.

01:15:55.060 My God, I can't imagine what it was like for you sitting there that day.

01:15:59.060 Of course, it wasn't the worst day of the trial.

01:16:02.060 Um, as I mentioned in the intro, that was the gloves and the leader, if it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

01:16:08.060 You must acquit.

01:16:09.060 That wasn't your call.

01:16:12.060 When we come back, Chris Darden and the role he had in forcing OJ to try on those gloves,

01:16:19.060 which was a move both members of the prosecution team would live to regret.

01:16:27.060 You mentioned Bill.

01:16:28.060 Bill thought Ido would be okay, but Bill wound up having a heart issue and taken leave from the trial.

01:16:33.060 In came Chris Darden, the partner that we would all watch every day right next to you.

01:16:38.060 And as has been documented and admitted by you and Chris, it was his call to have OJ Simpson try on the gloves.

01:16:48.060 Now, I'm confused after having read about the glove issue.

01:16:53.060 When he put on those gloves, was he putting on the actual gloves from the crime scenes, like from Bundy and Rockingham?

01:17:02.060 Or was he putting on a model that the glove manufacturer had sent to you guys, like an identical model, supposedly?

01:17:08.060 Yeah, so he did both.

01:17:10.060 So they proposed, the defense proposed that he try on the actual crime scene gloves.

01:17:17.060 I objected on the record, saying they have shrunk.

01:17:20.060 They've been tested.

01:17:21.060 They've been frozen.

01:17:22.060 They've been unfrozen.

01:17:23.060 These gloves were bloody.

01:17:25.060 There's no way they're in the same condition.

01:17:27.060 And then, and then Ido said, and well, but he's got to wear, he's, he's ruling for the defense allowing it.

01:17:34.060 I said, well, I was objected.

01:17:36.060 And then he said, but of course, he's going to have to wear latex underneath because these are bloody gloves.

01:17:42.060 So he has to put on latex gloves and then put the gloves on top.

01:17:45.060 And I said, now it's completely irrelevant.

01:17:47.060 Now you'll never know if they, you know, that's not going to be the same fit.

01:17:50.060 There's no way they can fit the same way.

01:17:52.060 The gloves are not the same.

01:17:53.060 You put in latex underneath.

01:17:55.060 This doesn't work.

01:17:56.060 Chris insisted that if we don't do it, they will.

01:18:00.060 And I said, then let them.

01:18:01.060 And we can tell the jury exactly what we just said, you know, that their latex is underneath.

01:18:06.060 The gloves are not in the same condition.

01:18:08.060 We can't do this. 1.00

01:18:09.060 This is a stupid experiment. 0.99

01:18:11.060 It's, it's irrelevant experiment because you can't duplicate the conditions. 1.00

01:18:15.060 And you saw what happened.

01:18:18.060 Yeah.

01:18:19.060 We all saw what happened.

01:18:20.060 When I was at NBC, I had.

01:18:22.060 Well, let me just, I'm sorry.

01:18:23.060 Let me just add one thing.

01:18:24.060 After that, then I said, you know, let's have the expert get the actual gloves in their

01:18:30.060 normal condition, the way he actually wore them that night where he won't have to wear latex

01:18:35.060 and it won't have been shrunken and frozen and shrunken.

01:18:38.060 And then he did put those on and they fit.

01:18:41.060 Yeah.

01:18:42.060 And no one remembers that moment.

01:18:44.060 No.

01:18:45.060 The cleanup in aisle seven doesn't play as well as the spill.

01:18:49.060 So I had Chris Darden on my show at NBC and I asked him about the effect this trial had on him.

01:18:56.060 And it was sad.

01:18:58.060 It was profound.

01:18:59.060 It was kind of sad.

01:19:00.060 And here's just a little bit of that.

01:19:02.060 Is that true?

01:19:03.060 Do you feel this trial ruined your life?

01:19:07.060 Well, it certainly changed it.

01:19:09.060 And it certainly, you know, changed the direction of it.

01:19:12.060 And it took me to places I would have rather not gone.

01:19:16.060 How so?

01:19:17.060 Well, because, you know, we owed a debt.

01:19:20.060 We had a commitment, you know, to the Goldman family, to the Brown family, to bring the murderer 1.00

01:19:27.060 of their son and brother to justice.

01:19:29.060 And we failed to do that.

01:19:31.060 And, you know, you don't lose something like that and then just forget about it.

01:19:36.060 It's not.

01:19:37.060 It doesn't just roll off your back.

01:19:41.060 Can you relate to that?

01:19:46.060 Sorry, you're there.

01:19:47.060 Can you relate to that?

01:19:48.060 Because I know I read your book.

01:19:50.060 It was actually struck me.

01:19:52.060 You said your reaction upon the verdict.

01:19:54.060 Of course, he was acquitted.

01:19:55.060 Was you felt guilty.

01:19:57.060 You felt guilty.

01:19:58.060 Oh, yeah.

01:19:59.060 Oh, yeah.

01:20:00.060 You know, I mean, our job is to convict the guilty.

01:20:04.060 Our job is, I mean, if you can never call it justice, getting a conviction when these

01:20:10.060 people will remain dead.

01:20:12.060 But it is all we have.

01:20:14.060 And that's what we're supposed to deliver.

01:20:16.060 And we didn't.

01:20:18.060 And so I think both Chris and I will remain scarred by that forever.

01:20:23.060 Oh, I hate that.

01:20:25.060 I mean, all you can do is your best.

01:20:27.060 All you can do is give it your all.

01:20:28.060 Just give it your all.

01:20:29.060 You know, you can't in no trial or you secured the verdict you want.

01:20:32.060 I mean, with time, has it have you gotten gentler on yourself?

01:20:38.060 No, I mean, at the time and there was a there was a sense that we couldn't win this case

01:20:43.060 very early on, way before the gloves, way before the author came out with the tapes all

01:20:48.060 way before then.

01:20:49.060 And you could see the way it was going on.

01:20:52.060 And I thought to myself, regardless, then the only thing I can do is do everything.

01:20:57.060 And that means spare no effort, work day and night.

01:21:01.060 You know, so I go home to be with the kids, but I brought the work with me.

01:21:04.060 And when I put them to bed, I was working, you know, at home.

01:21:09.060 And so that the one thing I can say is that I did not spare any effort.

01:21:15.060 There was I did everything I could think to do, worked as hard as I could possibly work

01:21:22.060 to bring the case, if not to the jury, at least to the rest of the country to see that

01:21:29.060 this is the truth.

01:21:30.060 We're presenting the truth here.

01:21:31.060 He did do this.

01:21:32.060 And at least I'll have that.

01:21:34.060 And so I do have that.

01:21:36.060 I know that we fought as hard as we could fight.

01:21:38.060 We all worked as hard as we could work.

01:21:40.060 And so that is a measure, I guess, of comfort.

01:21:44.060 But at the end of the day, the truth is we did not succeed.

01:21:48.060 And I feel like Chris does, that we did owe it to them.

01:21:52.060 We owed it to everyone to see that justice was done.

01:21:55.060 I think it's it's something that is felt not just by the families, but by everyone watching.

01:22:01.060 You want to see justice prevail.

01:22:03.060 And when you don't, you lose faith.

01:22:06.060 You know, it makes you feel like you can't trust our system of justice.

01:22:10.060 And that's a terrible thing.

01:22:11.060 So we cannot help but carry some of that with us probably forever.

01:22:16.060 I don't see it like that at all.

01:22:19.060 I see, you know, the jury let us down.

01:22:22.060 The jury had a different motivation.

01:22:24.060 I understand there were definitely some holes in the case.

01:22:26.060 If you believed the defense's DNA evidence, you could get to this.

01:22:31.060 You could get to this result.

01:22:32.060 But unlike I mean, you you tried.

01:22:35.060 You saw you tried to present the clear picture.

01:22:37.060 The jury got mesmerized by Johnny Cochran and the so-called dream team.

01:22:41.060 And I think they had other preconceived biases going in there with all due respect to them.

01:22:46.060 I'm sure they did their best.

01:22:47.060 But at least one has come out since and said he he would have changed his verdict.

01:22:51.060 He thinks Simpson did do it.

01:22:52.060 And now having like seen the case with fresh eyes, I have to ask you about if I did it.

01:22:59.060 But O.J.

01:23:00.060 Simpson, shortly after I joined Fox News in 2004, O.J.

01:23:04.060 Simpson through Harper Collins, which the Murdochs also own.

01:23:08.060 So this is a story that we were debating very much internally, wrote a book with Judith

01:23:13.060 Regan on sort of an offshoot of Harper Collins.

01:23:16.060 And it was called If I Did It.

01:23:18.060 And it was basically his confession.

01:23:20.060 And it talked about how he did it.

01:23:22.060 You know, if he did it, this is how.

01:23:24.060 And I was looking at it just prior to our interview.

01:23:28.060 And one of the things that jumped out at me was there was all this blowback and it was actually never published.

01:23:33.060 And there was no publicity tour, but he did a couple of interviews anyway.

01:23:36.060 He called Nicole the enemy.

01:23:38.060 He talked about his outreach against her when she would flirt openly with other men in front of their children.

01:23:44.060 And this is just a bit at the scene of the crime.

01:23:47.060 This is per O.J. Simpson and his book.

01:23:49.060 He downed a meal with Cato Kaelin dressed in a dark sweatsuit.

01:23:53.060 He sped over to Nicole's condo in Brentwood.

01:23:55.060 He parked in the alley, put on a knit wool cap and gloves, grabbed the knife that he keeps in his Bronco.

01:24:00.060 According to Simpson, his intent at this point was to scare her, not kill her.

01:24:04.060 Encounters Ron Goldman.

01:24:06.060 Sees him arriving at the condo.

01:24:08.060 Simpson goes on to report that he accused Goldman of planning to sleep with Nicole.

01:24:13.060 Goldman denies it.

01:24:14.060 Nicole tells Simpson to leave Goldman alone.

01:24:15.060 He was just returning glasses she had left at the restaurant.

01:24:18.060 Nicole's Akita, her dog, when it wags its tail to greet Ron, convinces Simpson that Ron and Nicole have a sexual relationship.

01:24:24.060 Simpson yells at Goldman.

01:24:25.060 You've been here before.

01:24:26.060 And since his account, Nicole charges at him or charges at him like a banshee failing, falling and smacking her head on the concrete. 0.99

01:24:33.060 When Goldman drops to a karate stance, Simpson loses it.

01:24:36.060 And what amounts to basically a confession, Simpson writes, then something went horribly wrong.

01:24:41.060 And I know what happened, but I can't tell you how.

01:24:44.060 Then later, this is from a report about the book in a taped interview to promote the book that was never aired on TV.

01:24:50.060 Simpson, according to a partial transcript obtained by The New York Times, said after this guy kind of got into a karate thing.

01:24:58.060 I remember I grabbed the knife.

01:25:01.060 Asked in the interview whether he removed the glove before grabbing the knife.

01:25:04.060 Simpson replied, quote, you know, I had no conscious memory of doing that, but obviously I must have because they found a glove there.

01:25:11.060 Talks about how he fled the scene, soaked in blood, holding the bloody knife.

01:25:16.060 When Nicole and Goldman dead in front of him, he stripped to his socks before reentering his Bronco, saw the limo parked in front of his house,

01:25:23.060 so entered the estate along a darkened pathway, banging loudly into an air conditioner outside of Cato, Caitlin's, Caitlin's bedroom as he attempted to do so.

01:25:31.060 And on and on and on and on.

01:25:33.060 He also claimed in that book that he had a second man, a friend named, quote, Charlie, with him at the time of the murders.

01:25:39.060 This must have been stunning to you.

01:25:41.060 Forget the propriety of the publishing and all that.

01:25:44.060 But the fact that he wrote this down and kind of told us what he says happened.

01:25:50.060 What did you make of that?

01:25:52.060 I didn't make anything of it, to be honest with you.

01:25:56.060 I don't believe he wrote it.

01:25:58.060 I think that someone else wrote it and I do know who.

01:26:03.060 He had a lot of good guesses about what happened.

01:26:05.060 Some are obviously wrong.

01:26:07.060 Nicole did not fall and bang her head.

01:26:09.060 Nicole was taken down brutally by him and basically rendered unconscious by the time Ron showed up and then had the fight with Ron and then went back and finished her off.

01:26:26.060 And there was no Charlie because that crime scene went over with a fine tooth comb.

01:26:32.060 No evidence of any other person there.

01:26:34.060 And you had the blood drops next to the bloody shoe prints showing one person leaving the scene.

01:26:40.060 No one else present.

01:26:43.060 Some of the other things were true.

01:26:45.060 I don't I think that what he I'm not sure why he did this book.

01:26:49.060 I think, you know, there was obviously a profit motive, which I hope the Goldman's have made unworth it to him.

01:26:56.060 But I really just I just thought it was kind of a work of fiction written by somebody else and something that he signed on to that he probably regrets.

01:27:06.060 Otherwise, you know, there's very little truth to be found there.

01:27:13.060 You know, it's crazy.

01:27:14.060 Of course, we all saw that years later he got convicted of kidnapping.

01:27:18.060 He was trying to I don't know something with his memorabilia and trying to avoid paying the Goldman's the money that they are entitled to as a result of their civil court verdict.

01:27:27.060 He wound up serving, I think, 11 years of a 33 year old 33 year sentence serving almost nine years.

01:27:35.060 But he he actually just comments now on random things, Marsha.

01:27:40.060 He I know my team and I noticed it after the Will Smith slap of Chris Rock.

01:27:45.060 He actually got out there and and commented on it and was like, oh, you know, I understand.

01:27:50.060 I've been there when the media says horrible things.

01:27:52.060 I'm like, what?

01:27:53.060 What are you doing?

01:27:54.060 How is this happening?

01:27:56.060 Is that we've lost our minds to him for comment?

01:27:59.060 Why are you asking him?

01:28:01.060 Are you asking this guy for comment?

01:28:03.060 And he had something to say about Jeff Toobin, too.

01:28:06.060 Did you hear? Oh, my God.

01:28:07.060 No.

01:28:08.060 What did he say?

01:28:10.060 She froze.

01:28:11.060 But we got to know the follow up on Toobin.

01:28:14.060 OK, we'll squeeze in a quick break while we get her back, because clearly this is not done.

01:28:17.060 Right, Steve?

01:28:18.060 Can we do that?

01:28:19.060 Yes, we can.

01:28:20.060 Want to plug her book, too, while we have the second check out her new book, The Fall Girl. 0.96

01:28:24.060 It's out next month to become a very successful crime novelist.

01:28:27.060 Don't go away because much more with Marsha Clark right after this quick break.

01:28:33.060 All right.

01:28:34.060 We've got her back with us.

01:28:35.060 And we did look it up during the break.

01:28:37.060 You were 100% right.

01:28:38.060 October 2020. 0.99

01:28:40.060 OJ tweeted, damn, Jeffrey Toobin. 0.98

01:28:43.060 At least Pee Wee Herman was in an X-rated movie theater. 0.99

01:28:46.060 Oh, my God.

01:28:47.060 Because Toobin wrote, he wrote the book, The People vs. OJ Simpson, on which the miniseries

01:28:51.060 was based.

01:28:52.060 My God.

01:28:53.060 My God.

01:28:54.060 I understand people, people sin and like you move on, you forgive him.

01:28:58.060 No, no, this is not that case.

01:29:00.060 I guess not.

01:29:01.060 I mean, I think it's remarkable that people are asking for his comment.

01:29:05.060 I really.

01:29:07.060 But whatever.

01:29:09.060 Maybe like if a double murder takes place, you might go to him for that commentary on

01:29:13.060 how they do it.

01:29:14.060 Right.

01:29:15.060 That he's got some real expertise in.

01:29:17.060 There you go.

01:29:18.060 OK.

01:29:19.060 Insight.

01:29:20.060 So back to this.

01:29:21.060 You say in the book, we lost we lost this case because American justice is distorted

01:29:25.060 by race.

01:29:26.060 We lost because American justice is corrupted by celebrity.

01:29:30.060 The bedrock issue here was not race, but race coupled with celebrity.

01:29:36.060 So ironic because, of course, as I mentioned at the top, OJ used to say, I'm not black.

01:29:41.060 I'm OJ.

01:29:42.060 And, you know, they had to, of course, change his whole house before the jury toured it to

01:29:46.060 take down all the photos he had of all these white celebrities and white friends and put

01:29:50.060 put up pictures with black people. 0.65

01:29:52.060 So he looked like he was more part of the black. 0.87

01:29:54.060 I mean, it's like a farce, right? 0.54

01:29:56.060 A farce.

01:29:57.060 But expand on that.

01:29:59.060 You lost because of race coupled with celebrity.

01:30:02.060 Yeah, I think you take one away and then you have a different verdict.

01:30:08.060 You know, if he's if he's as you said, I'm you're not going to like this.

01:30:12.060 But if it's Tom Brady and it's him instead of OJ Simpson, I think he gets convicted.

01:30:19.060 If it's John Q Lunchbucket and he's any other race, black whatever, he gets convicted. 0.93

01:30:26.060 But you put the two of them together.

01:30:28.060 And I think especially at that time, and we can never talk about these things in a vacuum.

01:30:33.060 It matters that Rodney King had just happened.

01:30:36.060 It matters that the city was burning.

01:30:38.060 It matters that everyone was on edge because of the the verdict in the Rodney King case.

01:30:44.060 These things really make a difference.

01:30:47.060 And so you have that as well.

01:30:49.060 But all of that put together certainly did make the recipe for this verdict.

01:30:55.060 We're now obsessed with identity, skin color, gender, gender identity.

01:31:02.060 And more and more, this is creeping into courtrooms.

01:31:05.060 What do you make of that, of wokeness and identity more and more appearing in law schools,

01:31:10.060 in the training of young lawyers, on the bench and even in our jury boxes?

01:31:15.060 You know, I think it's good that lawyers in particular are being taught about the ways in which race may impact the way law enforcement works,

01:31:26.060 the way cases are prosecuted, which cases are prosecuted.

01:31:29.060 I think to be sensitive to the possibility of bias in the way people do their jobs is an important thing to be acknowledged.

01:31:37.060 And because you can't address bias unless you acknowledge bias.

01:31:41.060 So that's as a first as a as a general point of information to be aware.

01:31:47.060 I think that's a good thing.

01:31:48.060 That said, it cannot be allowed to take over in a courtroom.

01:31:52.060 And at the point when you start to pick a jury, the jury has to be told and must be enforced in no uncertain terms by the judge.

01:32:01.060 We are here to judge the facts unless race is an issue.

01:32:05.060 And it can be. It certainly can be.

01:32:07.060 But if it is not an issue, then it will not be allowed into the courtroom because it does.

01:32:12.060 These are the kind of hot button issues that distort the the ends of justice.

01:32:17.060 There's no way you can have a just and fair verdict when you're throwing in hot button issues that simply make people upset,

01:32:25.060 but have nothing to do with you legally speaking with the evidence.

01:32:29.060 And so call it a fairly prejudicial in a court of law.

01:32:33.060 Let me get to this before I let you go, because we only have a couple minutes left and I teased it.

01:32:36.060 So I'd love to know your thoughts on the current L.A. D.A. there.

01:32:39.060 The attempted recall failed because they didn't get enough valid signatures, although it came pretty close.

01:32:44.060 And he and other, you know, soft on crime D.A.s are popping up in city after city as these crime rates go up.

01:32:50.060 What do you make of it?

01:32:51.060 You have to be aware of what a district attorney can and cannot do.

01:32:55.060 I see an awful lot of commentary that says, oh, he's you know, the people aren't getting busted.

01:33:00.060 They're letting criminals walk out the door with merchandise. 0.73

01:33:03.060 They're smash and grab. Nobody's doing anything.

01:33:06.060 But that's not a district attorney's job.

01:33:08.060 District attorney only can prosecute the people who get arrested.

01:33:11.060 So you have to look at the law enforcement level and say, do they have the wherewithal?

01:33:16.060 Do they have the means to actually go after all these people?

01:33:20.060 And that that's kind of a threshold issue right there.

01:33:23.060 First, they have to get arrested. That's important.

01:33:25.060 Now, if Gascon is also promoting policies about filing cases that is too lenient, that's a different story.

01:33:33.060 And that's what I was reading that prosecutors were walking out because he was ordering them not to file three strike cases.

01:33:40.060 And you can't do that. You can't do this across the board thing.

01:33:43.060 Discretion has to become has to be part of it.

01:33:46.060 If a defendant has, you know, two prior shopliftings and now he's got an out and out robbery, you're not going to file a three strike case on that.

01:33:55.060 But you will file it if this is his third armed robbery.

01:33:58.060 You know what I mean? You have to be able to think about who you have in front of you and not just do these across the board.

01:34:04.060 And either nullification or the opposite, you know, going after everybody.

01:34:09.060 I'll tell you what, I wish we could get you back in there.

01:34:12.060 I know you never prosecuted another case, but no matter what anybody says, you prosecuted a great one that in 1994 and 1995.

01:34:20.060 I'm proud to know you, Marshall Clark. All the best to you.

01:34:23.060 Thank you so much, Megan. It's been a pleasure.

01:34:25.060 Likewise, tomorrow, Jared Kushner.

01:34:30.060 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:34:32.060 No BS, no agenda and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - August 22, 2022

Prosecuting O.J., Misogyny in the Courtroom, and Race and Justice, with Marcia Clark ｜ Ep. 377

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