The Megyn Kelly Show - December 19, 2023


Pursuit and Arrest： Idaho College Murders and Bryan Kohberger, Megyn Kelly Show Special - Part Two ｜ Ep. 689


Episode Stats

Length

46 minutes

Words per Minute

152.29877

Word Count

7,036

Sentence Count

474

Misogynist Sentences

3

Hate Speech Sentences

3


Summary

The case captivated the country for weeks. Four college students were murdered inside their Idaho home. Was it a home invasion gone wrong?Was it drug-related? Was it something far more personal? And we begin to get into the key question: Who is Brian Koberger, and what possible motive did he have for this crime? To take you through the intricacies of all this, we re bringing you some fantastic writing and reporting by Howard Bloom, who covers this case in great detail for Air Mail News.


Transcript

00:00:00.420 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:00:12.700 The case captivated the country for weeks.
00:00:16.560 Four college students murdered inside their Idaho home.
00:00:20.740 Was it a home invasion gone wrong?
00:00:22.540 Was it drug-related?
00:00:24.300 Was it something far more personal?
00:00:27.240 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
00:00:28.520 I'm Megyn Kelly.
00:00:29.220 This week, we are bringing you a special edition of the show focused on the true crime case that I, along with millions of others, became absolutely obsessed with beginning just over one year ago.
00:00:41.200 There's so much mystery and confusion around the story.
00:00:46.320 On Monday, we told you about the gruesome and horrific murders.
00:00:49.980 And today, we dive into how the suspect was identified and how he was caught.
00:00:54.600 And we will begin to get into the key question.
00:00:57.060 Who is Brian Koberger?
00:00:59.880 And what possible motive did he have for this crime?
00:01:05.660 To take you through the intricacies of all this, we're bringing you some of the fantastic writing and reporting of Howard Bloom, who covers this case in great detail for Air Mail News.
00:01:16.600 In addition to those articles, his forthcoming book on the case will be published in the spring by HarperCollins.
00:01:22.860 That will be a must read.
00:01:24.500 And we will have Howard back on to talk about it when it comes out.
00:01:28.100 But for now, we're going to take you back to November 25th, 12 days after the murders and Bloom's writing.
00:01:35.900 To the investigators' rising sense of excitement, the circumstantial theory they had been secretly incubating for weeks was growing stronger and stronger.
00:01:43.820 Back on November 25th, Moscow PD had whispered to local lawmen to keep their eyes peeled for a white 2011 through 2016 Hyundai Elantra.
00:01:55.420 We still are asking people to call in on any spotting of white Elantra.
00:02:00.880 You know, we we appreciate all the tips that we've gotten, not only from local Moscow, but state, but across the nation.
00:02:09.320 And we're following up on all those.
00:02:12.060 Remember, according to the affidavit, the forensic examiner initially believed it to be a 2011 to 2013 Elantra.
00:02:19.700 But after further review, amended that to make it 2011 to 2016.
00:02:25.740 A car like this had been caught on surveillance video dashing about the neighborhood not far from King Road from the crime scene in the early morning hours immediately following the murders.
00:02:36.760 Four days later, Daniel Tiango, a Washington State University police officer, was diligently spending the midnight hours on his quiet graveyard shift going through the inventory of white Elantras registered at the university.
00:02:52.100 And up popped one belonging to a Brian Kohlberger.
00:02:55.380 A half an hour later, another WSU officer drove over to the graduate student parking lot and eyeballed the vehicle, only to discover the car now had Washington State plates, not Pennsylvania anymore.
00:03:11.200 Later in the still new morning, this morsel of intelligence, interesting, but certainly nothing provocative, was passed on to Corporal Rhett Payne, the gung-ho former Army MP who was the Moscow police's lead investigator.
00:03:26.300 Payne dutifully typed the car's registration details into the motor vehicle's record system, and the screen quickly displayed a photograph of Brian Kohlberger, as well as his state driver's license information.
00:03:39.300 The license revealed that Kohlberger is a white male and a sturdy 6 feet and 185 pounds, but it was the photograph that held Payne's studious gaze.
00:03:50.940 He swiftly zeroed in on the eyebrows.
00:03:53.500 They were bushy.
00:03:56.140 And that, Payne realized with a mounting sense of triumph, was precisely the sort of telltale clue he had been praying for over the past two weeks.
00:04:05.020 For all along, since the very first days of this grim case, he and the small inner circle of investigators had been guarding an explosive secret.
00:04:14.520 They had an eyewitness.
00:04:16.340 Dylan Mortensen, one of the two 19-year-old surviving roommates, had seen the killer.
00:04:24.260 At a little past 4 a.m., just about when the detectives theorized the four students had been hacked to death, she had heard a plaintiff cry.
00:04:33.700 Anxious, she opened the door to her second-floor room and saw someone, a man, dressed ominously in black, was walking toward her.
00:04:42.980 He was, she would vividly recall, the details forever etched deep in her memory, at least 5 feet 10, not bulked up, but still trim like an athlete.
00:04:52.880 And he wore a mask that covered his mouth and nose, but not his eyes or his eyebrows.
00:04:59.560 A profound and vehement fear seized hold of her.
00:05:03.040 A, quote, frozen shock phase was how she would try to describe her galloping emotions.
00:05:08.840 But the black-clad intruder continued past her as if she were invisible and headed toward a sliding glass door that led out of the house.
00:05:17.640 For reasons that continued to be bound tight with the bands of mystery, Dylan returned to her room, locked the door, and did not emerge until after 11 a.m.
00:05:30.680 Only then did she summon friends who, in a state of full-blown panic, at last called 911.
00:05:37.660 But as she later related her unnerving experience to police interrogators, she shared one detail that at the time seemed small, if not irrelevant.
00:05:46.240 The man in black had bushy eyebrows.
00:05:50.420 And now, 16 long days after the murders, Brett Payne found himself staring at a photograph of a man who might, just might, be the intruder Dylan had seen walking purposefully through her home.
00:06:04.360 There were a few other very notable elements that police would find in the house, which was detailed in the 18-page affidavit written by Payne on December 29th, just ahead of the arrest of Kohlberger.
00:06:17.880 Here's what Payne wrote in that affidavit.
00:06:20.360 I also later noticed what appeared to be a tan leather knife sheath laying on the bed next to Maddie Mogan's right side when viewed from the door.
00:06:30.460 The sheath was later processed and had K-Bar USMC and the United States Marine Corps Eagle Globe and Anchor insignia stamped on the outside of it.
00:06:40.740 The Idaho State Lab later located a single source of male DNA left on the button snap of the knife sheath.
00:06:50.080 We'll get back to the affidavit in one sec.
00:06:52.480 That single source of male DNA would prove to be crucial, as you will hear later on.
00:06:57.880 In an episode of The Megyn Kelly Show from earlier this year, we talked with CeCe Moore about the DNA that was found at the crime scene.
00:07:06.540 CeCe is known as the DNA detective and is one of the leading experts on what's called genetic genealogy.
00:07:15.240 Listen.
00:07:16.460 I think that he went to great lengths to not leave DNA.
00:07:20.620 He likely had gloves on.
00:07:22.480 He was, you know, educated about this.
00:07:25.940 You would think he certainly would have made sure he wasn't leaving DNA behind, but he must have handled that knife sheath earlier when he didn't have gloves on.
00:07:36.440 That's my guess.
00:07:37.660 But I also want to point out that they don't have to reveal everything they have in the affidavit.
00:07:42.620 And you know that, of course.
00:07:44.340 And so I think it's very possible they have additional DNA.
00:07:47.360 And even if they didn't, they might by now, because I'm sure they've been going through all of that physical evidence batch by batch, sending that to the Idaho Crime Lab and trying to detect any additional DNA.
00:07:59.740 So I don't think we'll really know what they have until this case progresses.
00:08:04.460 And hopefully they will find more DNA or already have.
00:08:08.340 It might be more complex, meaning there might be mixtures of blood.
00:08:12.920 Cases I've worked where there was a frenzied stabbing, almost always the knife has slipped and cut the suspect as well.
00:08:20.820 But then you have a mixture, and you might even have a mixture of three people in this case.
00:08:25.600 Maybe you have his blood plus two of the victim's blood, for instance, and they have to do what's called deconvolution, where they extract out the victim's DNA and are left with just that suspect's DNA.
00:08:40.460 And so it's possible that that could have taken more time, which is possibly why they were focusing on this knife sheath for the affidavit.
00:08:50.140 And speaking of other evidence, here's more from the affidavit.
00:08:53.440 During the processing of the crime scene, investigators found a latent shoe print.
00:08:59.100 This was located during the second processing of the crime scene by the ISP forensic team by first using a presumptive blood test and then amino black, a protein stain that detects the presence of cellular material.
00:09:12.080 The detected shoe print showed a diamond-shaped pattern similar to the pattern of a Vans-type shoe, sole, just outside the door of DM's bedroom located on the second floor.
00:09:23.440 This is consistent with DM's statement regarding the suspect's path of travel.
00:09:28.220 Okay, back now to Howard Bloom's reporting.
00:09:31.440 The comings and going of that white Hyundai Elantra, similar to the one Kohlberger owned, would be studied in great detail.
00:09:39.220 This is what we know.
00:09:40.080 On August 21st, 2022, Ryan Kohlberger was detained as part of a traffic stop that occurred in Moscow, Idaho, by Corporal Duke.
00:09:51.240 At that time, Kohlberger, who was the sole occupant, was driving a white 2015 Hyundai Elantra with Pennsylvania plate LFZ 8649, which was set to expire soon.
00:10:03.980 Kohlberger was reportedly pulled over less than two miles from the site of the murders.
00:10:07.220 In that stop, which occurred just before midnight, he received a ticket for failing to wear a seatbelt, according to the traffic citation.
00:10:15.620 While video of that encounter has not been released publicly, we know from the affidavit that Kohlberger provided his phone number as ending in 8458,
00:10:25.520 and that investigators conducted electronic database queries to begin to trace that phone number and the pings related to it.
00:10:34.860 We also know that on October 14th, 2022, less than a month before the murders,
00:10:41.140 Brian Kohlberger was detained again as part of a traffic stop by a WSU police officer.
00:10:46.600 This one was for running a red light, and that body cam footage has been released.
00:10:52.860 Take a look.
00:10:53.320 Hi, I'm Officer Luangus, stops being audio and video recorded.
00:10:57.700 Again, I think you know why I stopped you.
00:10:59.560 You were in the red light.
00:11:00.840 What actually happened was I was stuck in the middle of the intersection.
00:11:03.940 Yeah, I was behind you the whole time.
00:11:06.020 Yeah.
00:11:06.200 Yeah.
00:11:06.680 It never even occurred to me that that was actually something wrong.
00:11:10.680 I'm actually just from a very rural area, so we just don't have crosswalks.
00:11:15.360 Oh.
00:11:15.520 Unless I visit an area where there are crosswalks, and then it's not very frequent.
00:11:20.860 Yeah.
00:11:21.080 I do apologize if I was asking you too many questions about the law.
00:11:25.360 I wasn't trying to like...
00:11:26.280 No, no, no.
00:11:26.820 Not at all.
00:11:27.360 Like, I understand you're not from here.
00:11:29.960 So, investigators had Kohlberger's cell phone data, and what did they do with it?
00:11:35.960 They tried to see if they could find where that phone was pinging on the night of and the morning after the murders.
00:11:44.140 This is from the affidavit.
00:11:46.320 On November 13, 2022, at approximately 2.42 a.m., the 8458 phone was utilizing cellular resources that provide coverage to 1630 Northeast Valley Road, Apartment G201, Pullman, Washington, hereafter the Kohlberger residence.
00:12:02.060 At approximately 2.47 a.m., the 8458 phone utilized cellular resources that provide coverage southeast of the Kohlberger residence, consistent with the 8458 phone leaving the Kohlberger residence and traveling south through Pullman, Washington.
00:12:18.860 This is consistent with the movement of the white Elantra.
00:12:22.060 At approximately 2.47 a.m., the 8458 phone stops reporting to the network, which is consistent with either the phone being in an area without cellular coverage, the connection to the network is disabled, such as putting the phone in airplane mode, or that phone is turned off.
00:12:40.460 The 8458 phone does not report to the network again until approximately 4.48 a.m., at which time it utilized cellular resources that provide coverage to Idaho State Highway 95 south of Moscow, Idaho, near Blaine, Idaho.
00:12:57.420 Between 4.50 a.m. and 5.26 a.m., the phone utilizes cellular resources that are consistent with the 8458 phone traveling south on Idaho State Highway 95 to Genesee, Idaho, then traveling west toward Uniontown, Idaho, then north back to Pullman, Washington.
00:13:15.200 At approximately 5.30 a.m., at approximately 5.30 a.m., the 8458 phone is utilizing resources that provide coverage to Pullman, Washington, and consistent with the phone traveling back to the Kohlberger residence.
00:13:28.860 The 8458 phone's movements are consistent with the movements of the white Elantra that is observed traveling north on Stadium Drive at approximately 5.27 a.m.
00:13:38.880 Based on a review of the 8458 phone's estimated locations and travel, the 8458 phone's travel is consistent with that of the white Elantra.
00:13:48.540 Further review indicated that the 8458 phone utilized cellular resources on November 13, 2022, that are consistent with the 8458 phone leaving the area of the Kohlberger residence at approximately 9 a.m. and traveling to Moscow, Idaho.
00:14:06.320 Specifically, the 8458 phone utilized cellular resources that would provide coverage to the Kohlberger residence between 9.12 a.m. and 9.21 a.m.
00:14:17.100 The 8458 phone next utilized cellular resources that are consistent with the 8458 phone traveling back to the area of the Kohlberger residence and arriving to the area at approximately 9.32 a.m.
00:14:30.180 Investigators found that the 8458 phone did connect to a cell phone tower that provides service to Moscow on November 14, 2022, but investigators do not believe the 8458 phone was in Moscow on that date.
00:14:46.480 The 8458 phone has not connected to any towers that provide service to Moscow since that date.
00:14:54.080 We'll get back to the affidavit in a bit.
00:14:56.580 So that's where things stood as of the end of November, or at least as the end of November approached.
00:15:03.940 Christmas was nearing and the police did not believe that they had enough yet to make an arrest.
00:15:08.880 And now, as Howard Bloom puts it, the discovery that Kohlberger had apparently turned off his phone during the time when the murders occurred was further tantalizing knowledge.
00:15:20.280 But it was not enough, they also sourly realized, to persuade a judge to issue an arrest warrant.
00:15:26.440 All they could do for now was store this intelligence away until another vital part of the puzzle could be unearthed.
00:15:31.680 The crucial eureka moment that would allow them to tie all the disparate pieces into a firm knot.
00:15:39.080 A knot that not even the most industrious defense attorney could ever hope to unravel.
00:15:44.620 The entire country, or so it often seemed, was complaining that the case was dragging on and on without resolution.
00:15:52.700 It would be a disaster, not just professionally, but also for their own peace of mind.
00:15:57.280 Because Moscow was, for many of them, a hometown, too.
00:16:01.680 If Kohlberger slipped out of the police's grasp, before handcuffs could be firmly locked around his wrists.
00:16:08.520 And that brings us to the journey that was to come.
00:16:11.720 As Brian Kohlberger was set to begin a cross-country journey with the FBI and other law enforcement monitoring closely, or at least trying to.
00:16:22.160 And he would have a guest on this journey, his father.
00:16:25.740 As Bloom writes, Michael Kohlberger, the father, was worried about the snow.
00:16:31.580 Only days earlier, he had flown from Philadelphia to Seattle, then caught a twin-engine Embraer 170 jet for the one-hour or so shuttle flight into the frigid Pullman Moscow Regional Airport.
00:16:43.540 And now, December 13th, he was already heading back home.
00:16:47.240 Only this time, it would be a road trip.
00:16:50.880 It was a fatiguing back-and-forth cross-country jaunt, especially for a 67-year-old.
00:16:56.120 But Kohlberger had promised his son, Brian, who had nearly a month off before classes resumed at Washington State University,
00:17:03.080 that he would accompany him on the drive back home for the Christmas break.
00:17:05.940 And he was determined to make good on his pledge.
00:17:10.520 The Mysterious Case of Rudolf Diesel by Doug Brunt.
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00:17:20.420 It's even been optioned for a movie.
00:17:23.000 Rave reviews from The Times, The Journal, Publishers Weekly, and more, calling Diesel a wildly enjoyable ride.
00:17:29.500 It is a page-turning thriller about the greatest caper of the 20th century,
00:17:34.880 all involving a man whose name you likely see at the gas station every day,
00:17:39.200 but probably had no idea, was at the center of one of the greatest mysteries of all time.
00:17:45.460 Don't miss out on the book everyone's talking about.
00:17:47.940 It will make the perfect gift, The Mysterious Case of Rudolf Diesel.
00:17:52.780 Over the years, there had been some rough, combative times between the two of them.
00:18:02.800 He'd even had to get Brian into rehab to kick his teenage heroin habit.
00:18:08.120 But now the young man seemed on a good path.
00:18:10.620 Studying for a PhD in criminal justice offered a promising career trajectory for Brian,
00:18:16.020 and it can be imagined it must have puffed up a father with a prideful sense of parental accomplishment.
00:18:21.300 After all, Michael's own life had been tarnished by not one, but two embarrassing bankruptcies,
00:18:27.880 and his work days were a drudgery, spent as a maintenance man at the dreary high school his three children had attended.
00:18:35.260 Perhaps he was even looking forward to this road trip as a way to revitalize his relationship with his son,
00:18:40.540 a way to bury once and for all any lingering remnants of their old antagonisms.
00:18:44.880 But now Michael, as he'd later recount to an associate, was largely focused only on the forecast.
00:18:52.580 When it snowed in the Northwest, the accumulations were routinely measured in feet, not inches, Michael knew.
00:18:58.860 And so he wanted to get going.
00:19:00.820 When the weather came in, it would be rough traveling in a seven-year-old Hyundai Elantra.
00:19:05.660 Without four-wheel drive, you'd be slipping and sliding all over the road.
00:19:08.980 So he urged Brian that they should pack up and get going now.
00:19:14.120 His son agreed.
00:19:15.620 Only once they were on the road, Brian did something his father would later casually share with one of the mechanics
00:19:20.960 at the garage near their home in Albrighttsville, Pennsylvania, who had serviced the car after the trip,
00:19:26.160 that had caught him by surprise.
00:19:28.740 Before Michael had headed out to Washington, he had Googled the route back home.
00:19:33.900 The quickest, most logical drive was pretty much a straight line plowing across the country along I-90.
00:19:39.740 Brian, however, buttonhooked south toward Colorado, where he'd pick up I-70.
00:19:46.100 It seemed to make little sense.
00:19:48.220 Colorado in mid-December was snow country.
00:19:51.260 There was no telling what might suddenly come blowing down from the Rockies.
00:19:54.880 But Brian, according to what his father told people,
00:19:58.300 insisted the northern route across I-90 promised wintry conditions,
00:20:02.520 better to head away from the weather, even if it added hours or even a day to the trip.
00:20:07.280 It was a strategy that, when explained that reasonable way, was practical, even prudent.
00:20:13.660 But it seemed like something more devious to the FBI.
00:20:18.200 Unknown to either the father or the son, the Bureau had been determined to keep a watchful eye
00:20:23.420 on that white Hyundai's trek across America.
00:20:26.460 Only sources and law enforcement would confide with a bristle of embarrassment not long after the car had pulled out of its space
00:20:33.940 in the graduate housing parking lot, fronting 1630 Northeast Valley Road in Pullman, Washington.
00:20:39.880 They lost it.
00:20:41.120 For several alarming hours or more, the authorities are keeping the precise details of the screw-up very close to the vest,
00:20:49.440 for reasons you could understand.
00:20:51.220 The chief suspect in a quadruple homicide that had shocked the nation had seemingly vanished.
00:20:58.500 The Bureau's watchers called it a hat box operation.
00:21:01.860 And the jargon was a throwback to an era when G-men sporting fedoras would be out in force on the street
00:21:07.680 to monitor a target's every move.
00:21:10.180 A sea of hats would box the suspect in.
00:21:13.800 These days, the watchers have a few more tricks at their disposal.
00:21:18.480 Undercover vehicles, surveillance vans, low-flying fixed-wing planes.
00:21:23.240 And that's just for starters.
00:21:24.880 But the name has stuck.
00:21:25.900 And the surveillance on Brian Kohlberger, according to published reports and interviews with officials,
00:21:31.640 was hatboxed all the way.
00:21:33.580 But as Kohlberger headed across the country,
00:21:35.900 in the very car they believed had been captured in the blurry surveillance footage,
00:21:40.540 his father mystifyingly at his side,
00:21:43.340 they had lost him even before the hatbox op could get underway.
00:21:48.500 A mood of panic rapidly escalated into one of despair.
00:21:52.120 Frantically, they began to search the records of automated license plate readers,
00:21:57.200 or ALPRs, in nearby states.
00:22:00.200 It was an exercise in futility.
00:22:02.160 Nothing.
00:22:03.080 Not a single hit.
00:22:04.840 Then they got lucky.
00:22:07.100 U.S. Route 6 passes straight through the small town of Loma, Colorado.
00:22:13.380 And eight years ago, the Colorado Department of Transportation
00:22:16.040 thought it was high time to install Loma's first traffic light.
00:22:19.700 It went up in 2015 at the bustling, things being relative, of course,
00:22:24.880 intersection of Route 6 and Highway 139.
00:22:28.740 It wasn't long after that when the engineers decided
00:22:31.280 they might as well affix an ALPR to the light pole.
00:22:35.500 And on December 13th, it caught Washington State plate CFB 8708,
00:22:42.360 the white 2015 Elantra, registered to Brian Kohlberger.
00:22:46.080 And we should pause here in Bloom's reporting to note that the FBI disputes
00:22:50.760 that they ever lost Kohlberger during his trip across the country.
00:22:55.140 Quote,
00:22:55.500 The FBI is aware of reports detailing alleged FBI surveillance on Brian Kohlberger.
00:23:00.660 An FBI spokesperson said,
00:23:02.460 There are anonymous sources providing false information to the media.
00:23:05.740 For his part, Bloom points to the affidavit itself and its curious wording,
00:23:11.740 which notes the following, quote,
00:23:14.000 Investigators believe that Kohlberger is still driving the 2015 white Elantra
00:23:18.500 because his vehicle was captured on December 13th, 2022
00:23:22.300 by a license plate reader in Loma, Colorado.
00:23:28.180 Bloom says his sources were within the FBI, that he trusts them,
00:23:31.520 and he stands by his reporting.
00:23:33.720 Speaking of Bloom's reporting, back to it here.
00:23:38.500 With this sighting, the hat box op was once again underway.
00:23:42.600 The watchers would keep their eyes covertly on the car all the way to Pennsylvania.
00:23:46.600 Fate had mercifully bestowed on them a second chance,
00:23:50.220 and they were determined not to stumble.
00:23:52.700 Still, they were not prepared for what happened next.
00:23:55.440 The interstate was as flat and empty as the landscape.
00:23:59.640 Any threat of snow had vanished.
00:24:00.980 The dome of sky above I-70 was reassuringly blue.
00:24:06.720 In Michael Kohlberger's calm and steady universe,
00:24:09.640 there was no reason to suspect that the FBI was lurking in the shadows.
00:24:14.020 Even the suggestion of such clandestine goings-on would likely have struck him as preposterous.
00:24:18.940 But then, as the Hyundai crept through Hancock County, Indiana, something changed.
00:24:25.820 At 1041 on the morning of December 15th, as the car approached the 107-mile marker on the interstate,
00:24:33.300 Brian Kohlberger saw red and blue lights flashing in his rearview mirror.
00:24:38.680 Can you imagine?
00:24:39.900 A sheriff's car was demanding that the vehicle pull over.
00:24:43.420 Brian obeyed.
00:24:44.120 He waited behind the wheel as the officer approached.
00:24:47.980 What would happen next seemed destined to play out as high drama.
00:24:52.580 At the very least, the car approximately fit the description of a vehicle observed in the aftermath of a quadruple murder.
00:24:59.280 The driver of the Moscow Police Department had alerted the nation was to be considered a person of interest in their investigation.
00:25:04.900 As Deputy Nick Ernstess walked with slow, measured steps toward the passenger side of the Hyundai, where Michael sat,
00:25:14.760 there seemed to be no escape.
00:25:16.760 There would be no springing free.
00:25:18.940 The time of reckoning had arrived, only as the tape from Ernstess' body cam revealed.
00:25:26.100 The ensuing confrontation was all denouement, more farce than tragedy.
00:25:30.460 The conversation between the Kohlbergers and the deputy moved forward with its own abstruse logic,
00:25:36.780 a litany of non-sequiturs that seemed as if it had been inspired by a madcap Abbott and Costello routine.
00:25:43.480 When the deputy officiously demands where they are heading,
00:25:48.080 Brian's response suggests nothing more than a casual drive.
00:25:51.140 We're going to get some Thai food right now.
00:25:53.460 That's when the father decides it's his turn to play the straight man.
00:25:57.880 Well, we're coming from WSU.
00:26:00.460 Here's some of that incredible encounter captured on body cam.
00:26:05.640 Where are you headed?
00:26:09.220 Well, we're coming from WSU.
00:26:14.380 You're coming from Washington State University?
00:26:17.920 And you're going there?
00:26:21.140 Oh.
00:26:21.580 We're going to be going there today.
00:26:22.980 Oh, okay.
00:26:24.480 So y'all work at the university there?
00:26:31.000 To the Indiana deputy, the initials have no meaning.
00:26:37.140 It's all beyond him.
00:26:38.880 So both the father and son, eager to please, attempt to remedy the confusion,
00:26:43.540 and in the process only add to the officer's puzzlement.
00:26:46.040 He can't decide whether both of them work at the university or who, in fact, is the student,
00:26:51.420 or if they've headed out from Washington State on a cross-country road trip to get Thai food in Pennsylvania.
00:26:57.300 In the end, perhaps eager to escape from this madness, he warns them not to tailgate and lets them go without a ticket.
00:27:05.020 As the body cam footage ends, it is difficult to discern who's happier to be driving off, the Kohlbergers or the deputy.
00:27:13.940 Yet a quick nine minutes after they're back on the interstate,
00:27:18.080 Brian once again sees flashing lights in his rearview mirror.
00:27:21.500 The Kohlbergers are stopped again.
00:27:25.200 This time, it's a state trooper who pulls them over.
00:27:28.140 And here again, we can watch some of the body cam of that remarkable interaction.
00:27:32.920 Once more, at the very least, their car should create a shock of recognition.
00:27:54.200 After the nationwide Moscow PD vehicle alert, it's a ticking bomb.
00:27:59.560 Only against all odds.
00:28:01.280 They're again simply reprimanded for tailgating and sent on their way without a ticket.
00:28:07.340 Former CIA analyst and the creator of the CIA's Deception Detection Program, Phil Houston,
00:28:14.720 he's actually a human lie detector, joined us earlier this year about these traffic stops.
00:28:20.220 He gave his expert opinion on Kohlberger's exchanges in them.
00:28:23.880 Watch this.
00:28:25.460 When he asks, where are you going?
00:28:27.820 When a police officer stops you on the side of the road and says, where are you going?
00:28:32.700 He's looking for your destination, so to speak.
00:28:37.220 And Brian lies about, conceals the destination and really lies about what they're actually doing,
00:28:43.720 which is traveling all the way across country, you know, from Washington to Pennsylvania.
00:28:48.960 He says instead, he answers, we're just going to get some Thai food right now.
00:28:57.320 Brian clearly doesn't want to engage the officer at all.
00:29:02.600 He doesn't want to give him any information.
00:29:05.020 His dad recognizes, I think, how bad Brian's answer sounded.
00:29:10.120 And therefore, he's the one that got them back on the right path, saying, look, we're from
00:29:14.600 Washington state and, you know, and we're we're we're going elsewhere.
00:29:20.620 We know we do have a destination.
00:29:24.080 More from Bloom here and his reporting that draws from his conversations with sources inside
00:29:29.340 the FBI.
00:29:30.420 Yet unbeknownst to either the father or the son, it will be only a matter of time before their
00:29:35.140 luck runs out.
00:29:35.960 And while Michael's previous worries did not come to fruition, this one will.
00:29:41.960 And what were the FBI thinking as they, from a discrete distance, observed their targets
00:29:46.540 being pulled over not only once, but mind bogglingly twice by the authorities?
00:29:54.300 There is an iron rule.
00:29:56.280 Law enforcement veterans will tell you that in any long running op, the unexpected is to
00:30:01.220 be expected at any time.
00:30:02.600 The outrageous, in fact, must be regarded as inevitable.
00:30:07.020 Yet, according to sources familiar with the Bureau's skittish temperament, as these two
00:30:11.620 unanticipated traffic stops played out, knowing patience was not the guiding standard that
00:30:17.860 December day.
00:30:18.800 The agents were frustrated and they were angry.
00:30:21.860 The possibilities were too dangerous.
00:30:24.060 The main problem, shared law enforcement officials with an arm's length familiarity with the FBI
00:30:28.640 surveillance operation, was the watchers' helpless passivity.
00:30:33.340 All they could do was observe from a distance and wonder.
00:30:36.860 Had diligent Indiana lawmen spotted the car traveling down the interstate and immediately
00:30:41.240 connected it to the white Hyundai that was wanted by the Moscow PD?
00:30:46.460 Were the locals about to make an arrest before the final incriminating piece had been fitted
00:30:52.040 into the puzzle?
00:30:52.920 Well, if that happened, it had the potential to be a catastrophe.
00:30:57.240 The suspect would be alerted.
00:30:58.600 And perhaps then, if he was advised by a canny lawyer, the army of investigators would never
00:31:04.120 have the opportunity to make their airtight case.
00:31:07.660 Their second concern, however, was an even more dangerous prospect.
00:31:11.780 Was the suspect armed?
00:31:14.020 Would someone who they believed had killed four people hesitate to kill again?
00:31:18.660 Would the highway cops become victims, too?
00:31:20.920 Or would the suspect simply gun the Hyundai and race down the highway?
00:31:26.740 The spectacle of another OJ-like chase might be imminent.
00:31:30.580 In the end, none of the apprehensive watchers' anxieties came to fruition.
00:31:35.500 But a hard lesson, according to what other law enforcement officials heard, had been learned.
00:31:40.600 This case had to be wrapped up soon.
00:31:43.700 If not, anything could happen.
00:31:46.020 There were too many imponderables.
00:31:48.520 Time was not on their side.
00:31:49.820 In the antsy days following the Kohlberger's arrival, at last, in the Poconos on the afternoon
00:31:56.180 of December 16, the Moscow police suffered through variable moods.
00:32:01.480 There were bursts when there was no denying that a great push forward was underway.
00:32:06.660 Corporal Brett Payne, the PD's lead investigator, obtained a search warrant.
00:32:10.980 And then a day later, on December 23rd, he received those records of Kohlberger's cell phone
00:32:17.560 for the 24 hours before and after the homicides, the ones we told you about earlier when we were
00:32:23.540 quoting from the affidavit.
00:32:25.320 Just as the case was nearing the finish line, cops in Moscow moaned they had no choice but
00:32:30.380 to hand it off to the Pennsylvania State Police.
00:32:33.980 Kohlberger was now on the statey's playing field.
00:32:36.800 They'd be the ones who would take the ball over the goal line.
00:32:41.240 Major Chris Paris had been handpicked by the FBI to run the op for the statey's, and he
00:32:45.820 was a shrewd choice.
00:32:47.400 He looked like a linebacker, and he had a gruff, no-nonsense edge.
00:32:52.860 But he was also a thoughtful, scholarly man.
00:32:55.800 He'd graduated magna cum laude from the University of Scranton, and he went on to get a law degree
00:33:00.600 from Temple, and perhaps most valuable given the circumstances.
00:33:05.480 Paris possessed a lawyerly sense of discretion.
00:33:09.340 He shared the secret that a suspect was in the crosshairs with just an eight-person working
00:33:14.800 group, a leak, a promiscuous whisper, and the whole case might be blown.
00:33:20.880 For although Kohlberger was unaware, apparently, of it, at the time, the stateys and the suspect
00:33:26.080 were playing an intricate game of cat and mouse.
00:33:30.540 There was Kohlberger, observed taking his Hyundai in for servicing at a garage in Effort,
00:33:36.880 Pennsylvania, not far from his parents' home.
00:33:39.860 Next, he spotted wearing gloves as he gives the vehicle a meticulous cleaning.
00:33:44.920 And of course, these are actions that can mean nothing or everything.
00:33:48.860 It just depends on the preconceived notions that influence your judgment.
00:33:51.960 A little harder to dismiss, though, is Kohlberger's sneaking over to deposit some trash in a neighbor's
00:33:59.760 garbage pail at around 4 a.m. one morning, getting rid of incriminating evidence or just
00:34:05.820 a bit of mischief.
00:34:07.320 Once again, evil is in the eye of the beholder.
00:34:11.240 But all this was before the great trash robbery.
00:34:14.580 That was what some wags at Troop N, the state police barracks that was running the surveillance
00:34:20.260 op, later dubbed pilfering.
00:34:22.880 On December 27, Major Parris received a request from the FBI to plunder the trash bins outside
00:34:29.760 the Kohlberger residence.
00:34:31.900 That same day, once the stateys were certain no one was looking, two troopers swooped in
00:34:36.980 and made off with a pile of the Kohlberger's family distritis.
00:34:42.320 The prolonged parcel was quickly shipped across the country to Meridian, Idaho.
00:34:47.540 There, at the Idaho State Police Crime Lab on South Stratford Drive, a forensic team went
00:34:54.200 to work sorting through the trash.
00:34:56.080 It turned out to be a treasure trove.
00:34:59.680 For all along, the Moscow police had been holding on tight to a second secret, one that
00:35:05.780 was no less charged than the statement from the eyewitness.
00:35:09.260 A knife sheath, stamped with the U.S. Marine Corps Eagle, Globe, and Anchor insignia, had
00:35:15.920 been found lying on the bed next to Maddie Mogan's bloody corpse.
00:35:22.100 And from the sheath's button snap, a speck of male DNA had been recovered.
00:35:28.780 It was a minuscule sample, but it was all that was needed.
00:35:32.040 When compared to Michael Kohlberger's DNA lifted from the garbage that had been clandestinely
00:35:38.040 carried off, it proved nearly conclusively, the techies confidently rejoiced, that it was
00:35:44.440 his son's DNA on that knife sheath.
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00:36:52.420 The next day, December 29, a triumphant Brett Payne sat down to finalize the arrest warrant
00:36:59.600 for Brian Kohlberger.
00:37:01.620 When he was done, he had no time to enjoy the moment of high achievement.
00:37:05.100 Instead, full of a tense urgency, an animating conviction that every moment counted,
00:37:10.860 he hand-delivered the 18-page document to the courthouse.
00:37:14.820 Moments after Judge Megan Marshall signed off, a call was made to Pennsylvania.
00:37:20.620 It's a go, Major Paris was told.
00:37:23.260 Here's how Payne wrote about the discovery in the affidavit.
00:37:26.960 On December 27, 2022, Pennsylvania agents recovered the trash from the Kohlberger family
00:37:32.600 residence located in Albright'sville, PA.
00:37:35.980 That evidence was sent to the Idaho State Lab for testing.
00:37:38.600 On December 28, 2022, the Idaho State Lab reported that a DNA profile obtained from the trash
00:37:46.200 and the DNA profile obtained from the sheath identified a male as not being excluded as the
00:37:53.200 biological father of suspect profile.
00:37:56.720 At least 99.9998% of the male population would be expected to be excluded from the possibility
00:38:05.200 of being the suspect's biological father.
00:38:08.960 And here is CeCe Moore on the trash pull.
00:38:12.800 This is pretty common when investigative genetic genealogy has pointed law enforcement toward a certain
00:38:18.420 individual or family.
00:38:20.220 And they'll do what's called a trash pull.
00:38:22.380 If they can't just follow that person and pick something up that they dropped,
00:38:26.040 then they'll typically resort to waiting for that person to put their trash out on the curb.
00:38:30.060 And most states allow this.
00:38:32.320 It's considered abandoned at that point.
00:38:34.600 And then they go through the trash and try to find an item that might have DNA on it.
00:38:39.480 But when it's a home like this, a household where there's multiple people,
00:38:42.640 they don't know exactly whose DNA they're going to get.
00:38:46.440 More from Bloom.
00:38:47.660 Dynamic entry is only used to serve an arrest warrant when the threat matrix is code red.
00:38:53.000 You go in with overwhelming force, pounding down the doors, breaking windows, and setting off explosive devices.
00:39:00.140 The strategy is meant not just to surprise the suspect, but also to scare the living daylights out of him.
00:39:05.760 Because there's one thing that's always rising up in the mind of any tactical cop charging through the front door.
00:39:10.560 If the target's waiting inside to ambush you, it doesn't matter too much what sort of tactics you use.
00:39:16.320 This is his turf.
00:39:17.600 He has the advantage.
00:39:18.700 And if he's determined not to give up without a fight, bad things can happen.
00:39:24.360 At just after midnight on December 30, a Pennsylvania State Police Special Emergency Response Team, or CERT, S-E-R-T,
00:39:32.940 assembled at the Gray Barn-Like Troop End Barracks in Hazleton, Pennsylvania.
00:39:38.400 There were about 24 of them.
00:39:40.440 The usual 16 entry team members and maybe eight sharpshooters.
00:39:44.720 And they were packing.
00:39:45.600 Glock .40 caliber pistols were generally the weapon of choice, and the point men, as a rule, carried two pistols.
00:39:52.860 Those who would be the first through the door were also armed with stubby black HK MP5 submachine guns.
00:39:59.560 It was a brutal weapon, particularly in an enclosed space.
00:40:03.420 The backups had short-barreled Remington 870 12 gauges.
00:40:07.920 It was a shotgun meant for killing, not wounding.
00:40:09.940 And over military-style camo uniforms, they wore heavy, load-bearing, tactical body armor fitted out with level four strike plates.
00:40:19.160 The early morning arrest of Brian Kohlberger would be a code red op.
00:40:23.780 Dynamic entry all the way.
00:40:26.000 It was so quiet, it seemed as if the cocking of a single rifle would rouse people from their slumber.
00:40:30.220 But then all hell broke loose.
00:40:33.320 A door flew off its hinges.
00:40:35.080 Windows shattered.
00:40:36.260 Explosive charges boomed.
00:40:38.260 The CERT team stormed the stunned Kohlberger's white-clappered home.
00:40:42.580 In the end, without a single shot being fired, Brian Kohlberger was let off in handcuffs.
00:40:48.660 I recognize the frustration with the lack of information that's been released.
00:40:54.400 However, providing any details in this criminal investigation might have tainted the upcoming criminal prosecution or alerted the suspect of our progress.
00:41:05.060 Mr. Kohlberger was taken into custody without incident.
00:41:08.620 The scene was turned over to the FBI evidence response team for processing.
00:41:12.900 Mr. Kohlberger was then turned over to the Monroe County Prison, where he has remained in their custody since.
00:41:19.580 On January 4th, shackled and in a red jumpsuit, Kohlberger was flown in a tiny fixed-wing single-engine Pilatus across the country.
00:41:29.400 The plane landed at Moscow Pullman Regional Airport, the same airport where only about three weeks earlier Michael Kohlberger had arrived in anticipation of a convivial road trip with his son.
00:41:40.860 But as Bloom writes, nothing in this case would be easy.
00:41:44.820 There existed quite a few bad facts.
00:41:47.800 Bad facts. Bad facts is a phrase defense lawyers like to bandy about.
00:41:51.920 It's a term that's meant to draw an epistemological distinction between what is objectively real and what is subjective opinion.
00:41:59.620 Just because the prosecutor says it's true, well, that doesn't make it so.
00:42:03.300 And the bad facts riddling the probable cause affidavit that police used to obtain Kohlberger's arrest, as well as those in the laundry list of seemingly provocative items found in a search of Kohlberger's apartment in Washington, are indeed disturbing.
00:42:19.940 Item, the affidavit cites a shoe with a diamond-shaped pattern similar to the pattern of a Vans-type shoe style found at the scene of the crime.
00:42:30.840 Well, does Kohlberger own a pair of Vans?
00:42:33.460 And even if it is established that he does, there's a photo that shows at least one person in the house on King Road wearing Vans prior to the murders.
00:42:42.940 Item, the cell phone tower data that links Kohlberger to the scene of the murders is more an approximation of his whereabouts than an exact location.
00:42:53.600 And being in the vicinity is not at all the same as being at the scene of the crime.
00:42:59.680 More damaging?
00:43:01.060 The affidavit, with a remarkable candor, admits to some confusion in this sort of analysis.
00:43:07.540 Quote, investigators found that the phone did connect to a cell phone tower that provides service to Moscow on November 14th, 2022.
00:43:16.560 But investigators do not believe the phone was in Moscow on that date.
00:43:21.640 What?
00:43:22.060 The prosecution is stating that the cell phone evidence is correct only some of the time.
00:43:29.060 How's that going to fly with a jury?
00:43:31.360 Item, the white Hyundai Elantra.
00:43:34.520 While there are photos of the car zooming through the Moscow streets on the night of the murder, there is no clear photo of Kohlberger at the wheel that evening.
00:43:42.360 Not a single one.
00:43:44.620 Item, the DNA on the knife sheath snap.
00:43:48.980 It is apparently touch DNA.
00:43:51.460 That is, it's derived from a fingerprint rather than a drop of blood.
00:43:56.940 And that's pretty shaky evidence.
00:43:59.460 Often more guesswork than science.
00:44:02.280 The courtroom reality is that in case after case, touch DNA has been tarnished by a motley collection of false positive results.
00:44:10.260 A smart defense attorney might argue that there's just as much likelihood of touched DNAs being accurate as a jurors winning the lottery.
00:44:17.800 Who would want to condemn someone to execution based on those odds?
00:44:22.940 This item, the eyewitness identification.
00:44:26.240 Well, a lot of people have bushy eyebrows.
00:44:29.440 And the testimony from a witness who was in, quote, frozen shock phase, as she put it, might be problematic.
00:44:36.980 At best.
00:44:38.880 And that's without even getting into why she waited seven hours or so before making sure the police were notified.
00:44:43.560 The poignant truth might very well be that Dylan Mortensen, although she was not physically attacked, was another victim that night.
00:44:51.360 And that she is in no shape to take the witness stand to face a rapid firing, if not mean-spirited, defense counsel.
00:44:59.480 Item, the murder weapon.
00:45:02.400 Where is it?
00:45:04.440 The police have not found the long-bladed knife used in the killings.
00:45:09.920 And they have so far not been able to establish that Kohlberger owned such a weapon.
00:45:13.420 But arguably the most perplexing question that the prosecutors will have to wrestle with if they hope to persuade a jury is why.
00:45:23.120 Why?
00:45:24.420 What was the motive for someone to kill four college students in cold blood?
00:45:31.340 And so far, there isn't an answer.
00:45:35.300 But the exploration for a motive needs to take us into an examination of Brian Kohlberger himself.
00:45:41.060 Who he was at an early age.
00:45:43.820 Who he became.
00:45:45.020 An attempt to get inside his head and really learn about what makes this guy tick.
00:45:50.640 As it turns out, the trip into the psyche of Brian Kohlberger would be a fascinating and deeply disturbing one.
00:45:58.260 And that is where we will pick up next episode.
00:46:01.820 We'll see you tomorrow.
00:46:02.560 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.
00:46:09.140 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.