The Megyn Kelly Show - Racial Police Violence Spin, and Alex Murdaugh on Trial, with Larry Elder, Arthur Aidala, and Mark Eiglarsh ｜ Ep. 482

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00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.700 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.380 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:44.880 Wow, we have a lot to get to today.

00:00:48.080 Paul Pelosi body cam footage.

00:00:50.160 Dr. Jill Biden.

00:00:51.420 She's a doctor, didn't you know?

00:00:52.980 Just in case you hadn't heard that,

00:00:54.680 she really wants you to know she is.

00:00:56.800 But we're going to start today with the horrific videos

00:00:59.420 that were released on Friday in the case of Tyree Nichols.

00:01:03.840 I don't know.

00:01:04.500 Have you seen these tapes?

00:01:05.900 Did you watch them?

00:01:07.180 I watched them when they came out on Friday

00:01:09.060 and they are truly deeply disturbing.

00:01:11.680 Tyree Nichols, from all accounts,

00:01:14.140 was not somebody who was habitually or ever in his life

00:01:17.540 in trouble with the law, according to his family.

00:01:20.580 He had a four-year-old son.

00:01:22.500 He worked for FedEx.

00:01:24.200 He loved photography.

00:01:26.720 This is even, it's hard to hear these things

00:01:28.800 because they break your heart.

00:01:32.020 You know, it's almost easier when it's somebody

00:01:33.960 who is a career criminal who finds themselves

00:01:36.820 on the wrong side of the law,

00:01:38.160 and then you have a bad cop and all the elements combine.

00:01:40.920 No, this was not that.

00:01:42.760 Everything we're hearing is that Tyree Nichols

00:01:45.020 was an upstanding young man who loved photography,

00:01:48.020 who loved nature,

00:01:48.760 who had just been combining both photographing

00:01:51.440 and nearby park shortly before his encounter with police,

00:01:55.020 and he was less than two minutes away from his home

00:01:58.440 at the time of his encounter with the cops.

00:02:02.940 The cops say they pulled him over

00:02:05.300 because he was driving recklessly,

00:02:07.980 though there's absolutely no proof of that.

00:02:10.360 Tyree, as you probably know by now,

00:02:12.340 was a black man. 0.68

00:02:13.520 He was attacked by five cops who were also black.

00:02:17.020 But the claim was that he was driving recklessly,

00:02:20.040 and thus he was pulled over to the side of the road.

00:02:22.680 Again, even the police chief is saying no evidence of that,

00:02:25.680 though it cannot be disproven either at this point.

00:02:28.080 We don't know why, frankly, he was pulled over.

00:02:32.040 Things went south with the police

00:02:33.880 from almost the first moment.

00:02:37.940 I'll show you our first soundbite,

00:02:39.720 which is the initial stop,

00:02:41.080 and I will say at the outset

00:02:42.720 that virtually all of the videos

00:02:44.880 that capture this encounter

00:02:47.760 between Tyree Nichols and the police

00:02:49.180 are disturbing.

00:02:51.060 Soundbite 9. 1.00

00:02:51.660 Get the fuck out the fucking car. 1.00

00:03:00.320 Damn, I didn't do anything. 1.00

00:03:02.580 Hey, I didn't hurt your ass around. 1.00

00:03:04.880 All right, all right, all right. 0.99

00:03:06.160 All right.

00:03:06.460 All right.

00:03:06.520 All right.

00:03:07.140 All right.

00:03:08.460 All right.

00:03:10.400 You don't do that, OK? 1.00

00:03:12.500 Get on the fucking ground. 1.00

00:03:14.540 Get on the ground. 1.00

00:03:16.800 I'm on the ground.

00:03:19.660 All right, I'm on the ground.

00:03:20.460 I'm on the ground.

00:03:22.120 Testo, testo.

00:03:23.120 Testo, testo.

00:03:23.560 Please testo.

00:03:24.220 Get on the ground. 0.95

00:03:25.000 I think she'll tase you. 0.97

00:03:26.540 Get on the ground. 0.88

00:03:27.620 One.

00:03:29.120 Now.

00:03:29.540 I'm tasing.

00:03:30.220 All right, OK.

00:03:31.220 All right, all right, all right. 1.00

00:03:32.380 Break your shit, OK? 1.00

00:03:33.380 OK, dude, dang. 1.00

00:03:34.280 Turn the fucking room. 1.00

00:03:35.300 Put your fucking hands on the way. 1.00

00:03:37.100 Bitch, put your hands on your back. 1.00

00:03:38.840 OK, stop. 1.00

00:03:39.900 I'm going to knock your ass the fuck out. 1.00

00:03:41.120 OK, you guys are really doing a lot right now. 1.00

00:03:43.140 Bro, lay down.

00:03:44.220 I'm just trying to go home.

00:03:45.320 I know, man, if you don't lay down.

00:03:46.820 I am on the ground.

00:03:47.820 Put that on your stomach.

00:03:49.820 I am.

00:03:50.820 I'm sorry.

00:03:51.820 I'm sorry.

00:03:52.820 Put the book back.

00:03:53.820 I'm not doing it.

00:03:54.820 Stop.

00:03:55.820 Stop.

00:03:56.820 Stop.

00:03:57.820 Stop.

00:03:58.820 Stop.

00:03:59.820 Stop.

00:04:00.820 Stop.

00:04:01.820 Stop.

00:04:02.820 Stop.

00:04:03.820 Stop.

00:04:04.820 Stop.

00:04:05.820 Stop.

00:04:06.820 Stop.

00:04:07.820 Oh, the video ends with him finally running from the officers who have tased him, who taser

00:04:14.820 him as he's running.

00:04:16.820 And it also appears that pepper spray or something else was used.

00:04:20.820 There's a lot to get into in this case.

00:04:21.820 A sixth officer has just been disciplined in all of this.

00:04:26.820 We're not sure what the details are of that officer's role in all of this, but five cops

00:04:30.820 are now charged with second degree murder and have been fired from this force.

00:04:34.820 Much of the nation saw protests over the weekend in response.

00:04:37.820 We now know that Tyree's parents will be at the State of the Union per the invitation

00:04:42.820 of the president.

00:04:43.820 And this case says a lot.

00:04:45.820 It says a lot about law enforcement and and potentially more.

00:04:51.820 The race hustlers are still out there saying that this is about race.

00:04:54.820 Okay.

00:04:55.820 They make everything about race this too.

00:04:57.820 Even when five cops attack and kill a man, all of whom share the same race.

00:05:04.820 Larry Elder is our guest today.

00:05:06.820 He's host of the Epoch Times TV, The Larry Elder Show.

00:05:09.820 He joins me now.

00:05:10.820 Larry, welcome back to the show.

00:05:11.820 Great to have you.

00:05:12.820 Megan, thank you so much for having me.

00:05:13.820 I appreciate it.

00:05:14.820 The thing about this stop before we get to the race, you know, as you know, better than 0.96

00:05:21.820 anybody, this is what they do. 0.73

00:05:22.820 They try to inject into everything, everything, even if you're a black man, as you know, they 1.00

00:05:28.820 say it's about race.

00:05:29.820 But this video, I think the police chief nailed it.

00:05:34.820 You know, it's it's shocking.

00:05:36.820 It's horrifying.

00:05:37.820 It's it lacks humanity.

00:05:39.820 And you look at it in your first instinct as a normal person is not to try to racialize

00:05:44.820 it, but to say, where's their humanity?

00:05:46.820 What kind of a human can do this to another human?

00:05:50.820 This let's just stay with tape one, which I just showed.

00:05:53.820 And for the listening audience, it shows that the cops are amped up right from the get

00:05:58.820 go about Tyree.

00:05:59.820 I mean, right from the get go, they immediately pull him over there.

00:06:02.820 They're yelling right away with guns drawn. 1.00

00:06:04.820 Motherfucker, get out of the fucking car. 1.00

00:06:07.820 The guy's saying, I didn't do anything. 1.00

00:06:09.820 Get your ass down. 1.00

00:06:10.820 Get on the effing ground. 1.00

00:06:11.820 He says, I'm on the ground.

00:06:12.820 He keeps telling him I'm on the ground.

00:06:13.820 And for the listening audience, you can see he is on the ground.

00:06:16.820 It's like the police.

00:06:18.820 It looks like they were looking for some sort of confrontation, Larry.

00:06:22.820 Right.

00:06:23.820 I mean, how how much on the ground can you be when you're on the ground?

00:06:26.820 Look, let's stipulate that this is horrible.

00:06:28.820 Let's stipulate these cops got what they deserved.

00:06:30.820 I haven't talked to a single person.

00:06:32.820 I haven't talked to a single cop.

00:06:34.820 I know a lot of them who says there's any way, shape or form that this is justified.

00:06:37.820 But let's stipulate to that.

00:06:39.820 The question is, how do you turn this into race?

00:06:42.820 As you pointed out, five of the cops black. 0.96

00:06:45.820 The police chief is black.

00:06:47.820 And Michelle Obama weighed in.

00:06:49.820 Barack Obama weighed in.

00:06:50.820 So this is a painful reminder.

00:06:52.820 Al Sharpton said something to the effect of just because they're all black doesn't mean it can't be racial. 0.94

00:06:56.820 Van Jones said something very similar.

00:06:58.820 A critical race theory law professor at Columbia named Kimberly Crenshaw said this is about structural racism that the police target communities of color.

00:07:08.820 Hold the phone.

00:07:10.820 If it doesn't matter what race the cop is, if a cop does something bad, it's still racial. 0.53

00:07:15.820 Then why in the world, Megan, are we out trying to diversify police force?

00:07:19.820 Why do we have lines like one of police force that looks like the community?

00:07:23.820 Apparently it doesn't matter.

00:07:24.820 Doesn't it say the goal should be good cops?

00:07:27.820 And to raise another question about these cops.

00:07:29.820 I don't think anyone, any of them had more than three years of experience.

00:07:32.820 Wonder whether or not the Memphis police is having manpower issues in part because of Black Lives Matter has so discredited the police. 0.72

00:07:40.820 Nobody wants to join the police.

00:07:41.820 Nobody wants to join the force.

00:07:42.820 People are retiring early.

00:07:43.820 They're transferring to smaller, less confrontational police departments.

00:07:47.820 Maybe just maybe Memphis lowered standards in order for diversity and because of all the problems caused by people castigating the police.

00:07:54.820 Now, regarding what Crenshaw said, the police are targeting communities of color.

00:07:59.820 Well, unfortunately, communities of color is where the crime is. 1.00

00:08:02.820 And isn't that where you want the police officers? 0.98

00:08:04.820 At 13 percent of the population, blacks commit almost half of the homicides in this country. 1.00

00:08:09.820 Almost all of the victims are also black in the 75 largest counties in America by population. 0.97

00:08:14.820 Blacks account for 60 percent of the shootings and 60 percent of the robberies. 0.99

00:08:18.820 That's why the cops are there. 0.98

00:08:20.820 You want them to deploy their finite resources to West Palm Beach, to Beverly Hills, to Malibu.

00:08:25.820 It doesn't make any sense.

00:08:27.820 And let's have a little perspective here.

00:08:29.820 Out of 61 million contacts with the police in 2020, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the police killed 1,000 people.

00:08:39.820 That's 0.002 percent.

00:08:42.820 Almost all of them were resisting arrest, usually with a gun or with a knife.

00:08:46.820 It is rare for the police to kill anybody, let alone an unarmed person, let alone an unarmed black person.

00:08:52.820 By the way, in the last five years, the police have averaged killing 39 percent more unarmed whites.

00:08:57.820 Can you name one? Of course not, because nobody cares if it's an unarmed white person. 0.73

00:09:01.820 Van Jones doesn't come in. CNN doesn't come in. Joy Reid doesn't come in.

00:09:05.820 Nobody gives a rip when it's an unarmed white person, even though the police kill more unarmed white people every year than they kill unarmed black people. 0.95

00:09:11.820 But let's have a little bit of perspective, shall we? 0.82

00:09:14.820 Yeah, well, that's that's not an abundance listening to the pundits this weekend who like to just pour gasoline on the fire.

00:09:26.820 You know, I mean, there's so many people.

00:09:28.820 It wasn't just Van Jones.

00:09:29.820 And by the way, I don't know what's happening to Van Jones.

00:09:32.820 It's like he used to be sort of a voice of reason sometimes on some of these controversies.

00:09:36.820 And over the past.

00:09:37.820 No, he wasn't.

00:09:38.820 He never has been.

00:09:39.820 I'll tell you something else, Megan.

00:09:41.820 I interviewed a guy named Zach Kriegman, Isaac Kriegman.

00:09:43.820 He used to be a data scientist with Thomson Reuters.

00:09:46.820 His job was to do data.

00:09:48.820 Harvard Law School.

00:09:50.820 And he wrote a paper.

00:09:51.820 Initially, he supported Black Lives Matter and then did a study and found out that because of the so-called Ferguson effect, some people now call it the George Floyd effect, people are pulling back to becoming more passive.

00:10:04.820 He documented what he called excess deaths.

00:10:06.820 In other words, deaths that otherwise would not have taken place had the police been engaging in their normal proactive policing.

00:10:12.820 Thousands of them in just five cities alone.

00:10:14.820 So it's not just a lie that the police are engaging in systemic racism.

00:10:17.820 It's a lie that has real world consequences.

00:10:20.820 I remember Mayor Rahm Emanuel of Chicago.

00:10:23.820 He even said that because of the accusations false that the police were engaging in systemic racism after the death of a man named Laquan McDonald, the police had, quote, rolled themselves up into a fetal position, close quote.

00:10:35.820 And as a result, homicides have gone up.

00:10:38.820 And finally, getting back to what Professor Crenshaw said, it is a fact, unfortunately, that a young Black man, young being defined as as young as 10, as old as the mid-30s, a young Black man is 13 times more likely to be murdered than a young white man.

00:10:56.820 Almost always the murderer is another young Black man. 1.00

00:10:59.820 That's why the police are there. 0.93

00:11:01.820 That's why the cops are deployed in communities of color, Ms. Crenshaw. 0.99

00:11:06.820 It wasn't just Kimberly Crenshaw, who's like the critical race theory guru.

00:11:11.820 Plenty of others weighed in with similar sentiments.

00:11:13.820 Here's just a sampling of some of it in SOT 16.

00:11:18.820 But I think race is still on the table when a culture of policing historically has treated those from different groups differently.

00:11:27.820 Even when the individuals are from that same group, that culture can still exist.

00:11:32.820 That is part of the training that these officers receive, that Black and brown equals danger. 1.00

00:11:37.820 This comes at a time when the governor of Florida says no African-American AP classes, when we have demagoguery around critical race theory.

00:11:46.820 So it is nonsense that Black and brown officers have not been part of the problem of systemic racism and policing.

00:11:54.820 I'm about to educate some people right now. 0.94

00:11:56.820 The vicious, brutal, unjustified, extrajudicial killing of Tyree Nichols is as a result of a police system that is built on white supremacy.

00:12:06.820 White supremacy underpins the policing and criminal justice system. 0.98

00:12:11.820 There is a systemic reality of white supremacy that produces racist white cops and racial gatekeeping black and brown cops. 0.98

00:12:19.820 OK. And their representation is to represent white supremacy, not people of their own race. 0.98

00:12:28.820 Hmm. Got it, Larry. It's that the system of white supremacy produces racist white cops and racial gatekeeping black and brown cops.

00:12:37.820 That's what they were, racial gatekeeping black and brown cops. 0.98

00:12:40.820 Megan, past the ad bill, I've got a headache.

00:12:43.820 Here are the facts.

00:12:44.820 There is a Harvard economist named Roland Fryer, happened to be black.

00:12:48.820 He's from the inner city in Baltimore. 0.97

00:12:50.820 And he just knew because of these high profile deaths, whether it's Michael Brown in Ferguson or Freddie Gray in Baltimore or Laquan McDonald in Chicago, the young man who was curling the replica gun in Cleveland, he just knew the cops were murdering black people just because they were black. 0.94

00:13:10.820 He did a study. He said the findings were the most shocking of my professional career. 0.82

00:13:14.820 Not only were the police using deadly force against blacks because they were black, he found out that the police are more hesitant, more reluctant to pull the trigger on a black suspect than a white suspect. 0.55

00:13:25.820 If anything, white people have something to moan about because the police are slightly more likely to pull the trigger on them than a similarly situated black suspect. 0.98

00:13:46.820 It is a lie. Again, the lie is not just a normal lie. You believe a lot of stupid stuff. So what? This lie is getting people killed because it's altering the behavior of the cops and it's altering the behavior of suspects, especially young black suspects. 0.97

00:13:59.820 If you believe you get pulled over by a cop, this cop is likely to brutalize you. Why should you comply? 0.96

00:14:05.820 And there's a through line with all of these deaths, Megan. And the through line is this. Virtually every single one of them would have been avoided had the suspect complied.

00:14:13.820 Now, again, you're a young black man. You're listening to Michelle and Barack Obama, to Al Sharpton, to Van Jones. Why should you comply? After all, they're out to kill you. 0.60

00:14:23.820 And as a result, something that would have been a low level traffic stop turned into something very deadly.

00:14:28.820 Except this poor guy. It does not look like we can say that happened in the case of Tyree Nichols. It looks like he was complying. They were accusing him of not complying.

00:14:37.820 But as you point out, how much more can you lie down when you're already lying down? And then he ran.

00:14:42.820 But do you agree? Like when that guy ran, who could blame him? They were beating the hell out of him already.

00:14:47.820 The guy was running for his life. Right.

00:14:50.820 As I said from the outset, there's no way, shape or form you can justify this.

00:14:54.820 You've got five cops that are pretty big. This guy is a tall, skinny guy.

00:14:59.820 And they beat him. They kick him. They pepper spray him. 0.52

00:15:02.820 They grab him. They choke him. And he manages to get away and run away. How incompetent are these cops?

00:15:07.820 They're like the Keystone Cops. Again, I think it goes back to whether or not that you've been cops in the first place.

00:15:12.820 And let's have some perspective on how often this happens. The Chicago police chief, 36 year career, she said she's never seen anything so egregious.

00:15:21.820 So we know this is an aberration. I'm in L.A. where the biggest police scandal was ramparts.

00:15:27.820 There were 70 police officers that were involved. That was the scandal that provoked the movie called Training Day that Denzel Washington starred in.

00:15:34.820 70 cops is a large number. Absolutely. But it's also represented one percent of the LAPD. And again, this is obviously very rare, which is why we're talking about.

00:15:43.820 That's the thing is, like I said this on Friday before we saw the tapes, you've got 10 million arrests a year on average by law enforcement, 10 million.

00:15:52.820 And we get one case here, one case there. You know, The Washington Post has been keeping this running tally of the number of unarmed black men shot and killed by police.

00:16:01.820 It's 13, maybe 15 per year. Skeptic magazine pointing out in a really interesting poll a couple of years ago.

00:16:09.820 If you ask, like somebody who considers themselves very liberal or extremely liberal, they think it's 10,000, 10,000.

00:16:14.820 Yeah, the numbers are shockingly low, given the number of encounters cops have with defendants out there on the streets.

00:16:21.820 You said you said arrest. You're right. There's 10 million arrests. There are 61 million contacts or encounters.

00:16:26.820 So it's even a smaller percentage of that. And you're right about that magazine.

00:16:30.820 They found out that that 50 percent of self-described very liberal people thought the police killed 1,000 unarmed black men in 2019.

00:16:39.820 Eight percent thought they killed 10,000. And of the regular liberals, 39 percent thought they killed 1,000.

00:16:45.820 Five percent thought they killed 10,000. According to the Washington Post database 2019, there were 12.

00:16:51.820 That's how off they were. That's why people go bonkers whenever something like this happens, because they falsely assume it is not an aberration.

00:16:57.820 But this is a normal police policing. It is not.

00:17:00.820 Mm hmm. And we should point out that even amongst those who are considered, quote, unarmed, there are real questions about whether those folks actually were unarmed.

00:17:08.820 Some have taken a deeper dive and found that even the unarmed folks in many cases were driving a vehicle toward the police officer.

00:17:17.820 Well, that's a that's an armor. You know, that's a that's a that's a weapon or had a gun in the glove compartment, but not necessarily with their finger on the trigger.

00:17:25.820 All sort of these things that get discounted.

00:17:27.820 That's right. Michael Brown was unarmed, but they found his DNA on the officer's gun, meaning he's trying to get the gun.

00:17:32.820 You're quite right. Unarmed does not mean not dangerous.

00:17:35.820 Yeah. So the media is bent on turning this into a race war. They want a race war. 1.00

00:17:41.820 I mean, they push it at every turn and they refuse to acknowledge statistics like the ones that we've been discussing.

00:17:46.820 They just keep going back to lived experience and white supremacy and it's internalized by black people, too.

00:17:53.820 And therefore, that's what you're seeing, as opposed to the study that you just pointed out by Roland Fryer.

00:17:57.820 By the way, there was a fascinating documentary on him where they pointed out his Indian research assistant came to him and said, I'm I'm I'm embarrassed to tell you what we found.

00:18:08.820 Like, I'm I'm nervous to tell you what we found. Like, I can't I don't feel comfortable saying he fired his whole staff because he did not like the results.

00:18:15.820 Hired a bunch of researchers. Oops. They came up with the same conclusion.

00:18:19.820 Right. And then Harvard decided to fire him.

00:18:21.820 I mean, they haven't been able to do that entirely. But yeah, they're trying to ruin his life in any event.

00:18:26.820 So they don't want to talk about those stats. They just want to talk about internalized white supremacy.

00:18:30.820 This must be. It has to be. And Bill Maher was raising a good question this past weekend on his show, saying this knee jerk reaction to racialize everything.

00:18:38.820 This the two mass shootings to two of the mass shootings that happened last week in California with Asian men killing members of an Asian American community.

00:18:46.820 Just we had Chuck Schumer. We had other lawmakers go right to the biggest bigotry.

00:18:51.820 What? Right. And it's preventing us from taking a good, hard look at what is actually behind these incidents.

00:19:00.820 Well, you're right. And take the weekend before last in Chicago, 30 people shot seven fatally.

00:19:08.820 Almost all of the victims and the perks were black. And the real question is why? 1.00

00:19:13.820 And the answer is lack of fathers in the home that the left does not want to talk about.

00:19:18.820 And all too often, those of us who are conservatives don't want to talk about it.

00:19:21.820 The fact is that 70 percent of black kids enter the world without a father married to the mother in the home.

00:19:26.820 And Barack Obama said you and I talked about this before, Megan.

00:19:30.820 Barack Obama said a kid raised without a father is five times more likely before and and commit crime.

00:19:37.820 Nine times are likely to drop out of school and 20 times are likely to end up in jail.

00:19:41.820 And the question is, how have we gone from having 25 percent of young black men entering the world without a father married to the mother back in 1965,

00:19:47.820 when there was clearly more racism than now to 70 percent today?

00:19:51.820 And I would argue it's the welfare state. What we've done is we've incentivized women to marry the government. 1.00

00:19:55.820 We've incentivized men to abandon their financial and moral responsibility.

00:19:59.820 And we're not having a conversation about that.

00:20:02.820 Hmm. And that's that your argument is behind the crime rate and academic failures that we've seen in some of these communities.

00:20:09.820 And, you know, we've talked at length on our show before about studies that sort of talk about what's the what's the approach to education in some of these communities?

00:20:17.820 You know, and how can we change attitudes there? Well, you get called a racist if you even take a hard look at that.

00:20:21.820 Like, what's the attitude in terms of learning and excelling and getting straight A's and all that?

00:20:24.820 None of that can be touched, Larry. We just have to blame it on white supremacy and move on.

00:20:28.820 More critical race theory. That's what we need. You heard the lady say it. 1.00

00:20:31.820 Right. And we're spending more money now on education than ever before.

00:20:35.820 In fact, America, K through 12, spends more money on education than any other industrialized country in the world, except for Switzerland and Lombergsburg.

00:20:44.820 What's it called? Lombergsburg? Where the casino is? Luxembourg.

00:20:49.820 Luxembourg. Yeah, thank you. Baltimore has 13 public high schools, Megan.

00:20:54.820 13 where 0% of the kids can do math at grade level. Another half a dozen were only 6%.

00:20:59.820 Nationwide, according to the national report card of black eighth graders, these are 13 year old kids, 85% of them are neither math nor reading proficient. 0.62

00:21:09.820 Half of them haven't even reached basic reading proficiency. Why are we talking about that?

00:21:14.820 And you're talking about why black people can't compete in a digital world. Start there. 1.00

00:21:19.820 It's it's incredible. Like to hear that it's Karen Finney, a Democratic strategist in that one soundbite, say anti black racism is everywhere. 0.68

00:21:27.820 We know that this is part of the training these officers receive, that black and brown people equals danger. We see it. 1.00

00:21:32.820 We have to acknowledge this comes at a time when the governor of Florida says no African-American AP classes, when we have demagoguery around critical race theory.

00:21:39.820 This woman actually thinks more critical race theory classes or African-American AP classes is the solution to this problem. 0.99

00:21:48.820 You know, I've seen graphs of how much homework a black kid does every night versus how much a Hispanic kid does versus a white kid versus an Asian kid.

00:21:57.820 And it's night and day. If you don't have somebody in your home that will make sure you've done your homework, make sure you've gone to bed on time.

00:22:04.820 Make sure you've been fed, clothed and housed and have sent to school with an attitude ready to learn.

00:22:09.820 You are in very, very serious trouble. And we're not having that conversation.

00:22:13.820 Take a city like Baltimore where Freddie Gray died in police custody. He was in the van and apparently had his neck stabbed.

00:22:19.820 The mayor was black. The police chief was black. The number two on the police department was black. 0.99

00:22:24.820 All the city council Democrat majority black. The state attorney who brought the charges against six officers was black. 0.93

00:22:30.820 Three of the six officers were black. A judge before whom two of them tried their cases was black. 0.59

00:22:35.820 The attorney general at the time black. The superintendent of schools in Baltimore black. 0.74

00:22:41.820 The county superintendent black. And the president of the United States at the time was black. 0.92

00:22:45.820 All these people running everything black. And I'm reminded of that of that comment that Wanda Sykes made that comedian. 0.80

00:22:52.820 She said, how are you going to complain about the man when you are the man? Knock it off. 0.69

00:22:57.820 Blacks are running almost all these major cities. Many of them are in charge of our police departments, as is in Chicago. 0.99

00:23:02.820 Both the mayor and the head of the police department black.

00:23:05.820 And we're still talking about structural systemic racism. Knock it off. 0.69

00:23:09.820 There's some stats in Memphis. Memphis has where this happened, a black majority police force. 0.70

00:23:14.820 Now, black people make up sixty five percent of the population there. 0.98

00:23:17.820 The black the police chief is black. 0.98

00:23:19.820 C.J. Davis and a woman, I have to say, over thirty five years of experience in law enforcement. 0.85

00:23:24.820 I met her. I interviewed her, Larry, when I was at NBC.

00:23:27.820 And my own personal impression is very impressive woman.

00:23:30.820 I mean, she was kind of a badass when I talked to her. I really liked her. 0.80

00:23:33.820 And she was in the in North Carolina in that region when I was talking to her.

00:23:38.820 We had a great talk when she was talking about how when she's in her plain clothes and she's walking through a department store, sometimes she gets followed.

00:23:45.820 Right. That's that's a place where we women get followed more than black, white, whatever, because they think we're going to steal. 1.00

00:23:51.820 Like we're the ones who take the merchandise. And I asked her whether she'd ever been followed while she was in there.

00:23:55.820 And she goes, absolutely. Many times.

00:23:57.820 And I said, have you ever wanted to turn around to say to the person following you, ma'am, you don't need to worry about somebody stealing from you today because I'm here and I'm the chief of police.

00:24:07.820 I think she's like, of course, you know, I'd love to do it. But I pulled a soundbite of her because I know that C.J. Davis was definitely very focused in North Carolina.

00:24:15.820 And I presume when she moved to Memphis on training officers in terms of de-escalation, that's that's an important thing.

00:24:23.820 You know, whether you're left or right, you hear it a lot from the left de-escalation.

00:24:26.820 These officers here were guilty of exactly the opposite. They were the escalators.

00:24:30.820 The defendant wasn't escalating anything. He was like, guys, you're being really rough. Whoa.

00:24:34.820 Right from the get go. But here's a soundbite from C.J. Davis, the now police chief of Memphis back in 2017 when I talked to her about de-escalation.

00:24:41.820 The National Center for Women in Policing found that the average male officer is eight and a half times more likely to have an excessive force complaint against him than a woman.

00:24:53.820 Why do you think that is? I believe it. Why?

00:24:55.820 De-escalating someone who is six foot seven that's already drunk and you think I'm getting ready to break my nails fighting him.

00:25:06.820 We've had a lot of practice on how to de-escalate situations.

00:25:13.820 There is a side to being a woman, right? You're able to really reach people because you have so many experiences. You are a born nurturer.

00:25:22.820 There were four female black police chiefs in the quadrangle area at the time, and it was kind of unprecedented.

00:25:30.820 But in any event, Larry, I think I don't know where you go, because, you know, with all due respect to C.J.

00:25:36.820 Can I comment on what you said, what you said about.

00:25:39.820 But let me just finish the point I was going to make is like she is diverse in in every way. Right.

00:25:43.820 It's not that usual to see a female police chief. She is black in a majority black community. 0.99

00:25:49.820 The officers are black. She's prioritizes de-escalation. I know that, you know, and we looked at her background. 0.99

00:25:55.820 So I don't know what you do if even if you take race out of it.

00:26:00.820 What are we left with? We got somebody who prizes a de-escalation who's got a history of doing it.

00:26:03.820 You've got a woman in there who the women historically cops are less likely to have the confrontation. 1.00

00:26:07.820 So she's she's the one training these guys. Like, what else are we supposed to do?

00:26:12.820 Well, again, these are bad cops. I'd love to be interested in hearing what their background is, whether or not they waived low level offense or maybe a drug offense that they otherwise would not have waived in order to get people on the police force because of low manpower.

00:26:27.820 I suspect they never would have been cops had the standards not been lowered.

00:26:31.820 So regarding the what she said about female cops, I have a lot of friends who are cops, as I mentioned, and they tell me this.

00:26:37.820 When you are paired with a female and you're the bad guy, who do you go after? 0.76

00:26:42.820 You go after the man because you feel you can take the smaller cop or the female cop because they feel that they're going to be easier to push around. 0.91

00:26:48.820 It's just a fact that that that men who are paired with women often feel they are the target when a bad guy decides to become aggressive and not the female.

00:26:58.820 I'm in Los Angeles. We've had back to back black police troops.

00:27:03.820 The LAPD mirrors the racial demographic of the city. Yet whenever there's something that goes down, some of the activists yell and scream and talk about systemic racism.

00:27:11.820 I don't know how much more you want. There's a city in L.A. called California called Rialto.

00:27:16.820 It's one hundred thousand people. And demographically, it reflects the racial breakdown of California, the same percentage of Hispanics, of whites, of Asians, of blacks.

00:27:26.820 And the police department was ordered to wear body cams and the cops didn't want to. But they did them for about a year.

00:27:32.820 And here's the result. There were 90 percent fewer complaints against the police and 50 percent less use of force by the police.

00:27:40.820 Not because the police changed their behavior. They've been monitored before. They had they had dash cams before.

00:27:45.820 The civilians stopped lying, Megan. They knew where they were being taped.

00:27:49.820 And it's a lie. It's a crime to call to say that you were brutalized by the police when, in fact, you were not.

00:27:55.820 The civilians stopped lying. And as a result, they stopped resisting.

00:27:59.820 And the cops did not have to use the kind of force they used in the past.

00:28:01.820 So let's also tell civilians to comply. You won't die and you won't have to lie on a police officer.

00:28:09.820 There's also it's a two way street. Cops should be good cops.

00:28:12.820 And our goal should not be diverse police department.

00:28:14.820 The goal should be good cops, irrespective of race, irrespective of gender. 0.99

00:28:18.820 And you also ought to comply and stop lying on the police.

00:28:21.820 Exactly, because this this would have been a situation that easily could have gone the other way.

00:28:25.820 Had there not been videotape from the the body cams from the police cars and from local surveillance, the cops could have easily got any cop who's going to do this to a civilian will lie and come out and say he was the aggressor.

00:28:39.820 He attacked us. He didn't comply. And we can see for ourselves, thanks to the videotape, that's not true.

00:28:44.820 He was not the aggressor. He was trying to comply. You guys turned animalistic on him. I mean, it was animalistic.

00:28:51.820 There was no humanity in those tapes.

00:28:53.820 And Megan, this is interesting. They knew they were being taped and they did it anyway.

00:28:57.820 I don't get it. Therefore, they were bad cops.

00:29:00.820 There isn't a single cop I know that justifies the behavior of these cops.

00:29:04.820 The people that hate bad cops the most are good cops because it makes them all look bad.

00:29:08.820 They were bad cops. They knew they were being monitored.

00:29:11.820 They couldn't subdue a skinny suspect after kicking and tasing and pepper spraying.

00:29:16.820 The guy still got up and ran away again. How incompetent is that?

00:29:19.820 Mm hmm. That's exactly right. And then you hear them at the back half of the tapes say, oh, he tried to get my gun. 0.82

00:29:25.820 It's like, OK, all right. How stupid do they think we are? 1.00

00:29:29.820 You know, it's just justice will be done in this case. 1.00

00:29:32.820 And we'll see who else is going to be charged because the paramedics stood around doing absolutely nothing while he was suffering far too long.

00:29:38.820 The charges are not done. And as I say, there's now a sixth police officer who's in trouble.

00:29:43.820 So we're going to continue to follow it. Larry stays with us on the other side of this break.

00:29:47.820 And I have some words on Dr.

00:29:49.820 Jill Biden, among many other things. Stay with us, too.

00:29:51.820 Did you watch the football games yesterday?

00:29:57.820 We watched and I did root for the Eagles a little bit because Doug loves them and he's from Philadelphia.

00:30:02.820 And sorry, Giants fans, we weren't there and I had no choice.

00:30:05.820 Anyway, I'm still team Giants and I am as upset as you are about the Empire State Building.

00:30:10.820 Why did they do that? Why? No, we're not.

00:30:12.820 Now Doug thinks we're all on board. We're not on board.

00:30:14.820 No, we're still fans of the blue.

00:30:16.820 In any event, that's for another day.

00:30:18.820 Well, I wasn't there. I watched it on TV.

00:30:20.820 But you know who was there at that Eagles game?

00:30:22.820 Dr. Jill Biden, our first lady. She was at the football game last night.

00:30:25.820 Did you catch it?

00:30:26.820 Dr. Jill likes us to call her doctor.

00:30:28.820 No matter the setting, you see, because it clearly makes her feel important.

00:30:32.820 How sad.

00:30:33.820 You would think that a woman of her age and status would not need to hear an academic title repeated everywhere before her name is said in order to feel worthy. 0.76

00:30:42.820 But she clearly does because she has it said everywhere.

00:30:48.820 They've been pushing this from Team Biden, Joe Biden and Jill Biden for years, for years now.

00:30:54.820 In every press release and every appearance they make, they make sure you refer to her as Dr. Jill Biden, even if she's not doing or saying anything at all.

00:31:03.820 To the point that even the football announcers on CBS News know we need to say it.

00:31:08.820 If we're going to mention her, we've got to make sure we mention her properly at this testosterone filled sporting event. 0.98

00:31:15.820 Even the sports announcers know that's what you have to say.

00:31:18.820 And let's face it.

00:31:19.820 She's not a real doctor.

00:31:21.820 We all know it.

00:31:22.820 Real doctors go to college for four years and med school for another four and then internship and residency and fellowship.

00:31:27.820 And then they take several boards and they have people's lives in their hands.

00:31:31.820 That's who we know as doctor.

00:31:33.820 When you say doctor, that's what we think of.

00:31:35.820 Fake doctors like Dr. Jill, who insist everyone call them doctor all the time, live in academia for a few years after college and then run around trying to glob on to the respect and admiration we have for medical doctors.

00:31:47.820 That's the truth.

00:31:48.820 I am fine calling Dr. Jill, Dr. Jill, if she wants me to.

00:31:54.820 I've done it when meeting her in person when I interviewed her and her husband at NBC, just like I have for any Ph.D. who wants me to mention their title or whose academic achievement is relevant to our interview or their appearance on my show.

00:32:07.820 But she's the first person I have met who actually wants to be called doctor everywhere and in any context.

00:32:14.820 Now, I got nothing against Ph.D.'s.

00:32:16.820 My dad was a Ph.D. in education like her.

00:32:19.820 He taught Ph.D. students.

00:32:21.820 My dad hated it when people called him Dr. Kelly.

00:32:24.820 He insisted that his students call him Professor Kelly.

00:32:26.820 And he would never have wanted somebody outside of the university context to call him doctor or professor.

00:32:32.820 She wants it everywhere.

00:32:34.820 Whether you're interviewing her about her academic field teaching or not.

00:32:39.820 Why is that?

00:32:41.820 Clearly, she has got an inferiority complex to the husband. 1.00

00:32:45.820 She has said as much.

00:32:47.820 That's why she even got her doctorate to begin with. 0.97

00:32:50.820 She wanted to feel important.

00:32:51.820 And now we all have to participate in this fiction that she's a doctor, as we understand that word.

00:32:57.820 Whoopi Goldberg fell for it.

00:32:59.820 She once said that she should be the surgeon general. 1.00

00:33:02.820 So dumb. 1.00

00:33:04.820 I'm a doctor, too. 1.00

00:33:06.820 Whoopi.

00:33:07.820 I'm a doctor.

00:33:08.820 I actually am a doctor.

00:33:09.820 I'm a jurist doctor, which I guarantee was harder to get than her doctorate, though I have never in my life asked people to call me doctor.

00:33:16.820 And any lawyer who ever did that would be mocked to high heaven.

00:33:19.820 It's so typical of the left these days.

00:33:21.820 We have to use the exact words that they tell us to or we are being disrespectful.

00:33:25.820 We have to engage in their fantasies about themselves, whether it's the men who are now women and the pronouns have to be said and words like field and rule of thumb have to be banned.

00:33:33.820 And don't just shut up.

00:33:35.820 I'm not doing that. 0.98

00:33:36.820 I'm not going to do any of that.

00:33:37.820 But I will when Dr. Jill Biden comes on the show, introduce her by her title of choice.

00:33:43.820 However, I will judge her a little and think she's kind of needy in a way that's unbecoming.

00:33:47.820 Back with me now.

00:33:48.820 Larry Elder, host of Epoch Times is TV.

00:33:50.820 The Larry Elder show.

00:33:52.820 I tweeted out about this during last night's game, Larry, and the leftists lost their ever loving minds that I would question.

00:33:59.820 She is a doctor.

00:34:00.820 Well, you're a doctor and I'm a doctor, too.

00:34:02.820 We're all doctors because we have our jurist doctors.

00:34:04.820 Well, that's right.

00:34:05.820 You and I are both jurist doctors.

00:34:07.820 We could also demand that people call us doctors.

00:34:09.820 But, Megan, it could be a lot worse.

00:34:12.820 At least she does, in fact, have a doctor degree.

00:34:15.820 Dr. Maya Angelou doesn't have a doctor's degree. 1.00

00:34:17.820 Dr. Jane, no doctor's degree. 0.76

00:34:20.820 At least she has one.

00:34:23.820 Dr. J?

00:34:24.820 What are you blowing my mind?

00:34:26.820 At the end of the Bill Cosby show, the credits ran that was produced by Dr. Bill Cosby because he got a doctor degree in education.

00:34:35.820 So there are other people that insist on being called doctors, even though you and I know that the term normally is applied to only medical doctors.

00:34:42.820 I don't really care all that much about that.

00:34:43.820 I'm more concerned about her husband's bad policies about the borders, about inflation, about how we're no longer energy independent, about how we are allowing five million illegal aliens into the country since he's been in office.

00:34:57.820 The crazy pullout of Afghanistan that inspired Putin might might likely inform China and North Korea and Iran. 0.87

00:35:05.820 That concerns me a lot more than the fact that Joe Biden wants to be called doctor.

00:35:09.820 Same. And the only reason I raise it is because I sent out a tweet, one little tweet, and they lost their minds.

00:35:16.820 It's so fun aggravating them on Twitter.

00:35:18.820 They're so easy to control.

00:35:20.820 And and what does it say about them?

00:35:22.820 It's their obsession, right, with identity, with empowering women.

00:35:27.820 I've got news for you.

00:35:28.820 This doesn't empower anybody.

00:35:29.820 This makes her look small, not big. 0.69

00:35:31.820 This is not this empowers nobody.

00:35:33.820 She can be she's the she's the first lady. 1.00

00:35:36.820 We don't she doesn't need an extra title at this point. 0.99

00:35:38.820 She never needed it, but she doesn't need any.

00:35:41.820 You know what? And the stay at home moms out there don't need a stupid title either to be respected. 1.00

00:35:46.820 Just be a good person. 0.99

00:35:47.820 But that's the left these days, right?

00:35:49.820 They're in love with academia.

00:35:50.820 They think they can spend their whole lives there and never accomplish anything real and still weren't the same respect and adoration that we give to a medical doctor who saves a child's life.

00:35:59.820 This is who they are.

00:36:01.820 And this obsession with identity is pernicious. 1.00

00:36:04.820 It's beyond this stupid thing. 0.99

00:36:06.820 It's it goes back to the stuff we just talked about. 1.00

00:36:09.820 It really does.

00:36:10.820 And regarding the stuff we just talked about in identity politics, take the death of George Floyd, however you feel about the way Derek Chauvin treated him.

00:36:16.820 And I believe that the charges and the convictions were just there is zero evidence that Derek Chauvin acted the way he did because of George Floyd's race.

00:36:25.820 The lead prosecutor was a black man.

00:36:27.820 And in his opening statement, he took pains to say that the police in general were not on trial.

00:36:31.820 The Minneapolis PD in general was not on trial.

00:36:34.820 This individual was on trial and Derek Chauvin was never charged with a hate crime.

00:36:38.820 We had four months of protests in the streets.

00:36:41.820 Two thousand officers wounded.

00:36:44.820 About 25 or 30 people were killed.

00:36:45.820 Two billion dollars in damages, all because of people like Black Lives Matter making the connection between George Floyd's treatment and his race when there wasn't any. 0.64

00:36:54.820 And now you have the same cast of characters swooping in, you know, BLM's already talking about, of course, what happened in Memphis.

00:37:01.820 Al Sharpton is going to be at the funeral.

00:37:04.820 Benjamin Crump, who always goes in and tries to get money out of the community or the cops or whomever.

00:37:09.820 You got the feds doing a civil rights investigation in Memphis.

00:37:12.820 Why?

00:37:13.820 Why?

00:37:14.820 Let let it play out at the local level.

00:37:15.820 They've charged all five of these guys with second degree murder.

00:37:18.820 Stay out of it.

00:37:19.820 The federal government has no role yet, but they've got to stick their nose under the tent so they can look like they're doing something, Larry.

00:37:26.820 It's like you could write the script as soon as you get news of an event like this.

00:37:30.820 Right.

00:37:31.820 I mean, after Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson, in comes the Obama DOJ.

00:37:36.820 And they do this big, big investigation into whether or not the Ferguson PD is systemically racist.

00:37:41.820 And they found that they were.

00:37:42.820 Why?

00:37:43.820 Because Ferguson is 67 percent black, but 85 percent of the traffic stops were black.

00:37:48.820 Well, there was a study that came out by the National Institutes of Justice, which is the research arm of the DOJ.

00:37:53.820 And they found out it is true that blacks are disproportionately stopped by the cops.

00:37:57.820 But they said it's because blacks disproportionately break the law, more likely to speed, more likely to drive with an expired tag, more likely not to have a seatbelt on and so forth.

00:38:05.820 And if you just look at the gap, 67 percent of the population, but 85 percent of the stops was at an 18 point gap.

00:38:12.820 Look at the NYPD, which is which is ethnically diverse.

00:38:15.820 Blacks are 25 percent of the population in New York, but 55 percent of the traffic stops.

00:38:19.820 That's a 30 point gap. 0.70

00:38:21.820 So therefore, the NYPD is more systemically racist than Ferguson.

00:38:24.820 You can't look at it based on numbers.

00:38:26.820 You have to look at it based on behavior. 0.72

00:38:27.820 And once again, unfortunately, black drivers are more likely to commit a traffic offense than white drivers, which is why they're pulled over. 0.74

00:38:33.820 And the people, by the way, who are saved by pulling people like that over and getting them off the streets are the very black and brown people living in their city that people on the left claim that they care about. 0.66

00:38:41.820 Well, that's that that's the true tragedy here, because, you know, I mean, as you say, Ferguson effect or now the George Floyd effect.

00:38:48.820 Black and brown people are going to die in greater numbers if we see a police pull back the way we saw after George Floyd as a result of this.

00:38:54.820 And that is why the media needs to be responsible. 0.81

00:38:56.820 But they won't be. They'll just put these tapes on on real and just keep running them.

00:39:01.820 And they won't offer any of the perspective or context that you just offered or that we provided to on the on the actual statistics when it comes to law enforcement.

00:39:10.820 That's because they listen to listen to the loudmouths regarding this professor, Kimberly Crenshaw, who says the police are engaging in structural racism by targeting black communities.

00:39:18.820 Guess what? Eighty one percent of blacks want the police manpower to remain the same or to be increased.

00:39:23.820 So the very people that you claim are being targeted want to be targeted by the cops.

00:39:28.820 Right. Right. We want more, not not less. But here's here's my word.

00:39:32.820 Yeah, right. It's such such awkward details.

00:39:35.820 Here's my worry. I remember listening to a national review podcast right after George Floyd and they were saying, is this a game changer?

00:39:42.820 You know, is this Black Lives Matter? It's on the basketball courts. It's on the Fifth Avenue.

00:39:47.820 And the consensus at the time amongst those guys was no, it's not.

00:39:52.820 You know, the fires flare and then calm down and then, you know, sort of go back to our normal lives.

00:39:57.820 That turned out not to be true. You know, I mean, the race essentialism that is filtered down now, K through 12.

00:40:04.820 And I realize that predated George Floyd, but that poured a bunch of gasoline on it is just breathtaking, you know, at every level in the schools, in the corporations, at the city level.

00:40:14.820 There's a story here in New York City just today. Where is it in front of you? But anyway, they're they're mandatoring CRT training for every single New York City employee. It's everywhere.

00:40:23.820 And so this is the kind of thing that they will use to make it even more expansive.

00:40:29.820 Well, it is a game changer. It will be a game changer. As I mentioned, in all these cities where these high profile deaths have taken place, the cops have pulled back.

00:40:36.820 It's going to happen in Memphis. And again, crime is going to go up.

00:40:39.820 The victims of that crime are going to be the very black people that people on the left claim that they care about. 0.79

00:40:43.820 It is going to have an effect. It is going to be a game changer. 0.51

00:40:46.820 The police have been demoralized. Morale has never been this low.

00:40:49.820 Manpower has never been this difficult.

00:40:51.820 Police officers are resigning earlier. As I said before, they're transferring to other other departments.

00:40:55.820 Manpower is low. The only way to get manpower up is to lower standards.

00:40:58.820 When you lower standards, you're more likely to get bad cops, as was the case here in Memphis.

00:41:02.820 Again, I'd love to hear the see the applications of these five officers to find out whether in other days they would have even made the cut.

00:41:09.820 So what do we what do we get now, Larry? We get people the push for reparations grows.

00:41:16.820 Right. Like we saw in California and your state, which you should be governor of right now, had there been any justice in this life.

00:41:22.820 But you couldn't because you're the black face of white supremacy, says the L.A. Times. 0.97

00:41:26.820 You couldn't hold the role. You know, yes. 0.98

00:41:29.820 So so these are sort of the crazy solutions that people people throw out there to address our historical racism, the historical problems of the American people when it comes to slavery.

00:41:38.820 When it comes to slavery, no one's going to take a look.

00:41:41.820 I mean, I don't know, like if if you were president, let's say you're president, forget governor.

00:41:45.820 And I said, Larry, how do we how do we do something about those 70 percent of black families that don't have a father figure in them?

00:41:52.820 What's your what's your first move?

00:41:54.820 Well, the answer is, first of all, to call attention to the problem.

00:41:57.820 You can't solve it unless you know it's there. I've often talked to people about this and they're shocked at those numbers.

00:42:02.820 The other thing is I would urge churches, nonprofits to get involved.

00:42:06.820 And I would direct the money that we're spending on welfare programs for those kinds of programs.

00:42:10.820 You can't take the money away from people that made them dependent.

00:42:13.820 But you can certainly put strings attached to it to make sure that they reconsider their behavior and hopefully get on the path towards self-sufficiency.

00:42:20.820 You have to at least talk about this. You have to at least talk about what's going on regarding the Ferguson effect, the George Floyd effect.

00:42:26.820 A lot of people don't even know that. I had lunch one time with one of my mentors, Tom Sowell, the economist.

00:42:30.820 And I said, probably the most investigated aspect of all economics is the minimum wage.

00:42:35.820 He said, that's right. He did more studies on that than probably anything else.

00:42:38.820 And I said the consensus overwhelmingly is the minimum wage laws do harm to the very people that you claim that you care about, people with unskilled levels of experience.

00:42:47.820 Many of them black and brown. Many of them are secondary and tertiary earners of wages like like females. 1.00

00:42:52.820 And he said, I said, so how come you haven't won that argument?

00:42:55.820 And he said, Larry, they haven't heard the argument.

00:42:59.820 And we've seen this from Twitter files, the suppression of conservatives and conservative content, the suppression of any debate on whether or not we ought to be opposing lockdowns and mandates.

00:43:09.820 Many people don't even know about this, haven't even heard it.

00:43:12.820 So at the very least, where I become governor or president, if I decide to run and I'm thinking about it, I would have the bully pulpit and people would have to hear the kinds of things you and I are talking about.

00:43:21.820 And they would have to consider them. And they aren't doing that right now.

00:43:24.820 Wait a minute. You just slipped a little news in there. Are you actually thinking about running for president?

00:43:29.820 News nugget. Yes, I am. I'm going to probably announce if I decide to do it at the end of March, early April.

00:43:35.820 I've been to Iowa about four or five times in the last month. I've been to New Hampshire. I've met a lot of people.

00:43:39.820 I'm meeting with donors. I am really strongly giving consideration.

00:43:42.820 It isn't because I want to derail Trump or DeSantis or anybody else who decides to run.

00:43:47.820 We all know what the issues are. They are inflation. They are energy independence.

00:43:50.820 They are the borders. They are the poor education kids are getting in the inner city.

00:43:55.820 But I want to bring to the table two things. The first is the centrality of having fathers in the home that we don't talk enough about.

00:44:00.820 And the second is I think I can debunk this lie about systemic racism because I'm from the hood.

00:44:05.820 My father grew up in Athens, Georgia, during real Jim Crow South.

00:44:08.820 I think I can debunk this notion in a more passionate and I think credible way than maybe anybody else can.

00:44:14.820 So I'm running for all those reasons if I decide to run.

00:44:16.820 Wow. Larry, that would be...

00:44:18.820 Elderforamerica.com. Elderforamerica.com.

00:44:20.820 Don't know something in the tip jar.

00:44:22.820 Elderforamerica.com. Yeah, got it. 0.97

00:44:24.820 Well, on your point about Thomas Sowell, yes, they don't know Tom Sowell's points on the minimum wage.

00:44:29.820 Which they should.

00:44:30.820 They don't even know Thomas Sowell.

00:44:32.820 This is one of the points that you raise in Uncle Tom.

00:44:34.820 I think it was the first one.

00:44:35.820 There's two.

00:44:36.820 They're both well worth your time.

00:44:38.820 You've got young black men saying in Uncle Tom, I didn't...

00:44:41.820 Why...

00:44:42.820 Who's Tom Sowell?

00:44:43.820 Why wasn't I taught about him when I was growing up?

00:44:45.820 You know, there's a magazine called Ebony Magazine.

00:44:48.820 For a while it was the magazine for black families.

00:44:51.820 You walk into any black home in the inner city and Ebony Magazine is on the corner coffee table.

00:44:56.820 And every year they had something called the 100 most influential black Americans.

00:45:00.820 And every year, guess who never made the list?

00:45:02.820 Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and Clarence Thomas.

00:45:07.820 You are one of nine Supreme Court justices, whether you like his policies or not.

00:45:11.820 How could he not be influential?

00:45:13.820 He's not on the list.

00:45:14.820 Thomas Sowell has written over 40 books.

00:45:16.820 Not on the list.

00:45:17.820 And Walter Williams is, to my knowledge, the only chair, economics chair, chairman of a non-black college. 0.99

00:45:24.820 And he wrote about 10 books.

00:45:27.820 He syndicated in about 150 different newspapers.

00:45:30.820 Thomas Sowell was the most widely read person in the English language when he had his column.

00:45:36.820 He had it in about 350 newspapers, plus all of his books.

00:45:39.820 Yet many black people don't know who these three people even are, let alone considering the issues that they raise.

00:45:45.820 Their very ideas are considered dangerous.

00:45:49.820 You're not allowed to speak them.

00:45:50.820 Thomas is allowed to tweet and thankfully does on Twitter.

00:45:53.820 He's a great follow. 0.89

00:45:54.820 But their instinct would be to suppress them and to be calling them the black face of white supremacy, too. 0.98

00:45:59.820 I mean, who the hell would have the nerve to say that directly to Tom Sowell? 0.97

00:46:02.820 I mean, Tom Sowell.

00:46:03.820 But they would.

00:46:04.820 I feel like they would.

00:46:05.820 Thankfully, we have you out there, Larry, making these arguments and you don't care what kind of slings and arrows you take.

00:46:09.820 And we are grateful for it.

00:46:11.820 Thanks so much for being here, my friend.

00:46:13.820 My pleasure.

00:46:14.820 Anytime.

00:46:15.820 You know where to find me.

00:46:16.820 Yeah.

00:46:17.820 Doctor, all the best to you.

00:46:18.820 Okay.

00:46:19.820 You too, doctor.

00:46:20.820 And remember, folks, you can find The Megyn Kelly Show live on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 111 every weekday at Noon East

00:46:28.820 and the full video show and clips by subscribing to our YouTube channel.

00:46:32.820 Go to YouTube dot com slash Megan Kelly.

00:46:35.820 We've got a lot of good fun clips there.

00:46:37.820 You can spend lots of fun time seeing just like the shorts.

00:46:40.820 If you just want to see like a little minute, whatever.

00:46:42.820 And then go listen to us as a podcast, too.

00:46:45.820 That's easy when you're driving your car.

00:46:46.820 You miss the Sirius XM live showing.

00:46:48.820 You can do it while you're doing your household chores.

00:46:51.820 You're running your errands.

00:46:52.820 Apple, Spotify, Pandora, Stitcher, wherever you get your podcast for free.

00:46:55.820 And by the way, there you'll find our full archives with more than four hundred and eighty shows,

00:46:59.820 including the very first one we did with Larry with his backstory, which is very moving.

00:47:03.820 You'll love it.

00:47:08.820 Now it's time for Kelly's core on the docket today.

00:47:10.820 We'll touch on Tyree Nichols, the trial of Alex Murdoch in South Carolina.

00:47:15.820 And it is ABC News going to face a lawsuit over the firing of GMA co-hosts TJ Holmes and Amy Robach.

00:47:23.820 A lot to get to that, plus our romance novelist.

00:47:26.820 Joining me now, Mark Eichlarsh, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney and civil law attorney as well.

00:47:31.820 Arthur Idala, trial attorney and managing partner at Idala, Bertuna and Kamens.

00:47:36.820 Guys, welcome back to the show.

00:47:38.820 Great to be here.

00:47:40.820 All right. So can I ask you, first of all, in addition to your law job, Arthur,

00:47:44.820 and coming on as a panelist on Kelly's court, you also have another job, which is as a radio show.

00:47:50.820 And you have a big get coming up.

00:47:52.820 Someone most of us can't stand.

00:47:55.820 Tell us who it is.

00:47:57.820 Well, I was asked, as I was here, to go on Governor Cuomo, Andrew Cuomo's.

00:48:03.820 He has his own little podcast videocast.

00:48:05.820 It's not nearly as professional or widely watched as yours.

00:48:09.820 And at the end, I just threw it out there.

00:48:11.820 I was like, can you return the favor?

00:48:12.820 And he said yes.

00:48:13.820 And he came into my office.

00:48:14.820 He sat here for a little over an hour and I cross examined him the best I could.

00:48:19.820 I mean, I didn't cross-examine him the way you would, but I'm not exactly in your league

00:48:24.820 when it comes to being an interviewer and a host at this point.

00:48:27.820 Oh, please.

00:48:28.820 Well, you're way better at cross-examination.

00:48:30.820 I don't pull that.

00:48:31.820 Okay.

00:48:32.820 So do you ask him about the nursing home scandal?

00:48:34.820 Tell me that.

00:48:35.820 Do you ask him about the nursing home scandal?

00:48:36.820 I asked him that twice because he kind of ducked and he kind of ducked again.

00:48:40.820 And I asked him about COVID in general.

00:48:42.820 Like, what were the mistakes?

00:48:43.820 What were the mistakes?

00:48:44.820 And really the only thing he owned up to was the mistakes,

00:48:48.820 he should have acted a lot sooner.

00:48:49.820 I mean, that's what he said and that he should have stopped.

00:48:52.820 And regarding the nursing homes, he should have stopped the staffers

00:48:56.820 and the visitors from going there from day one.

00:48:59.820 He said that's obviously the older people who aren't leaving the homes.

00:49:02.820 They don't have the COVID.

00:49:03.820 It was the staffers who brought it in and their family members who brought,

00:49:06.820 who visited them, brought it in.

00:49:08.820 And he said he would have shut down the airports.

00:49:10.820 He should have shut down the airports a lot sooner.

00:49:12.820 And I said, you know, when Trump shut down the airports,

00:49:14.820 he caught a lot of grief and he was like, even Trump was late.

00:49:17.820 He goes, we should have done it a lot sooner.

00:49:19.820 All right.

00:49:20.820 I heard enough about Andrew Cuomo.

00:49:21.820 If they want to hear the full interview, where can they hear it?

00:49:24.820 He's clearly, he's clearly wounded though.

00:49:26.820 You're going to hear a different person.

00:49:28.820 He helped kill 15,000 people.

00:49:30.820 No one cares if he's wounded.

00:49:32.820 But you're not going to hear the liberal lefty Andrew Cuomo.

00:49:35.820 You're going to hear someone who got, you got filleted by a prosecutor.

00:49:38.820 He sounded more like a defense attorney than a prosecutor.

00:49:41.820 Arthur Idala on any of the Apple podcast networks or any of that stuff.

00:49:46.820 I'm on tonight.

00:49:47.820 All of you, New Yorkers, AM 970 at 6 PM.

00:49:50.820 Thank you for that, Megan.

00:49:51.820 It was a big, it was a nerve wracking thing for me to do.

00:49:54.820 It was like the biggest one I had after interviewing Megan Kelly and my very first big guest interview.

00:49:58.820 Well, I will forgive you for making me share space with that man.

00:50:02.820 Don't get me started or my pal.

00:50:03.820 Okay.

00:50:04.820 Let's move on to more interesting people.

00:50:07.820 Um, first of all, let's, let's, we can't, we'd be remiss if we didn't touch on these second degree murder charges against these cops in the Tyree Nichols case.

00:50:14.820 Um, look, us from the outside, we look at these tapes.

00:50:18.820 We're like, yeah, done.

00:50:19.820 Second degree murder.

00:50:20.820 That makes sense.

00:50:21.820 But if you guys got hired to defend them, do you see anything on those tapes that you could use?

00:50:27.820 Mark, I'll start with you.

00:50:28.820 Okay.

00:50:29.820 First of all, I don't like they, I don't like when we lump all office.

00:50:33.820 Um, without looking at each individual's actions.

00:50:38.820 And if I'm representing someone, it's going to be one person in particular, and I will trace their actions step by step, what they knew, what they were told.

00:50:46.820 And hopefully I have the guy who participated, but didn't cross the line.

00:50:52.820 Hmm.

00:50:53.820 Right.

00:50:54.820 That's what they're all going to be looking for.

00:50:55.820 Go ahead, Arthur.

00:50:56.820 Well done.

00:50:57.820 I already heard one person say, uh, I think one of the lawyers for one of them is that they, the officer,

00:51:02.820 Hey, the officer got hit with the pepper spray and they were out of commission.

00:51:07.820 And so they couldn't really participate.

00:51:09.820 So that's what Mark is saying.

00:51:10.820 You have to key on your one person.

00:51:13.820 What Ben Crump said this morning on, I think it was CBS, which I agree with is like, when you have videos like this, we don't need the new standard is you don't need a six month investigation.

00:51:24.820 He was complimenting law enforcement for acting relatively swiftly in bringing charges here.

00:51:32.820 Hmm.

00:51:33.820 I don't know.

00:51:34.820 I feel like some people are saying a second degree murder is too, too much that they should have gone for involuntary manslaughter.

00:51:41.820 What's the standard between those two charges, Mark?

00:51:43.820 And like, do you see, do you think the charge is correct?

00:51:46.820 Do you agree that it should be second degree?

00:51:48.820 I think that all prosecutors are instructed to go for the most severe charge that they can justify and then let the jurors, if they want, find that it's not that, but to go low because somehow, you know, you think it's an easier get is not the right call.

00:52:05.820 You go for the highest charge that is reasonable that you can make the argument for.

00:52:10.820 And I think that they can make that argument.

00:52:12.820 Hold on.

00:52:15.820 Second degree, as I understand it, is a is an intentional killing that didn't have premeditation, whereas involuntary manslaughter is reckless.

00:52:23.820 It was a reckless.

00:52:24.820 You behave recklessly in a manner that resulted in somebody's death.

00:52:27.820 So the standard of proof is considerably lower for involuntary.

00:52:30.820 Go ahead, Arthur.

00:52:31.820 Well, right.

00:52:32.820 Talk about plea bargaining, Arthur.

00:52:33.820 That was a good point.

00:52:34.820 I was going to correct you, Maggie.

00:52:37.820 The standard of proof is the same standard of proof.

00:52:40.820 It's beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:52:41.820 Well, the standard of proof is the same.

00:52:43.820 It's just the elements that they have to prove are much lower.

00:52:46.820 And yes, it does give prosecutors the ability to plea bargain.

00:52:50.820 So, OK, instead of it being man to about murder, too, we'll let you plea bargain it down.

00:52:54.820 And instead of having, you know, 25 years in prison, but now you're only facing 15 years in prison.

00:53:00.820 There is one aggravating factor or that helps the police officer mitigating factor is when help arrives, when the medical help arrives, they do not render immediate aid.

00:53:12.820 You see them standing there.

00:53:13.820 You see them talking there.

00:53:14.820 You see them not like jumping right on the victim and, you know, to try to revive him and try to give him aid for quite some time.

00:53:22.820 And that is something that if I'm a defense attorney, I'm saying, listen, maybe my guy overreacted, but then he's the one who called and asked for medical assistance.

00:53:29.820 And they got here and they're chewing the fat on who's going to play on Sunday football game as opposed to rendering aid.

00:53:35.820 Mark, forgive me for going there, but it's something that the defense lawyers are undoubtedly doing now.

00:53:41.820 They're going to want toxicology tests on the defendant.

00:53:45.820 They're going to want to try to make this more complicated morally than it currently is.

00:53:51.820 Right. Well, that's what we do. Our job.

00:53:54.820 Listen, our job is not to seek the truth.

00:53:56.820 That's what the prosecutors allegedly are supposed to do. 0.99

00:53:59.820 Our job is to use the law and seek an acquittal.

00:54:03.820 And if somehow those things are admissible and they're favorable, we're going to use it.

00:54:08.820 We would use it if it was one of your family members accused of something.

00:54:12.820 We're going to do everything we possibly can to get the best possible outcome.

00:54:15.820 Any chance, Arthur, they're worried about flight.

00:54:18.820 These five cops, they know what they would be facing in prison.

00:54:21.820 Cops, you know, who killed a man under these circumstances.

00:54:24.820 And they're out on bail, you know, so I don't know.

00:54:27.820 I wonder if I'd be thinking I got to get out of here.

00:54:31.820 I would tell you the rule of thumb, I can't speak about Tennessee, but the rule of thumb in the state of New York is when you're charged with a homicide, it is very, very hard to get any bail whatsoever.

00:54:43.820 Five million, ten million dollars.

00:54:45.820 The rule of thumb is homicide equals remand.

00:54:48.820 Remand means if someone comes and puts a billion dollars up, you don't get out unless there's something special like a real self-defense claim or something along those lines.

00:54:58.820 Hold on one second. This is special. And everyone needs to understand the purpose of bail.

00:55:02.820 It's not to punish somebody. It's will the cops return to court and answer to the charges.

00:55:09.820 And the bail should be the bond amount should be as low as possible to ensure that they can return to court.

00:55:18.820 And Megan's point is when you're facing life in prison and your acts are on video, you're not relying on some crackhead who's a block away saying, yeah, he did it.

00:55:30.820 You're on your own body cam video. And like, I'm a young man. I'm going to spend the rest of my life in jail.

00:55:36.820 Why don't I try to get the Venezuela? Why don't I try to get somewhere else? 1.00

00:55:40.820 You know, I think that's what about it. Have you ever seen anybody do it?

00:55:43.820 Like any of your clients, you drive your car down to the Mexican border.

00:55:46.820 It's so easy to cross north. How hard could it be to cross south?

00:55:49.820 And I realized Mexico extradites if they find you, they're going to send you back to the United States.

00:55:53.820 What if they don't find you? I don't like why don't more defendants in this position do that?

00:55:58.820 I will tell you, first of all, it's very hard to not get caught.

00:56:02.820 Second of all, I actually had a client who did it and I told him, look, be confident.

00:56:06.820 I'm working on your case. He takes off. About a month later, I got the charges dropped.

00:56:11.820 I wasn't able to reach him to tell him I don't think he knows at this point.

00:56:14.820 No, Megan, when I was a prosecutor, as the jury was deliberating, the client, the defendant left.

00:56:21.820 And the defense attorney was very confident he was going to win.

00:56:24.820 And the defendant was found guilty.

00:56:26.820 And at the sentencing, he was sentenced in absentia.

00:56:28.820 The judge said, I was never going to sentence him this hard, but now I am.

00:56:32.820 He gives him the max. That was 25 years ago.

00:56:34.820 I got a call two months ago.

00:56:36.820 They found the guy in Greece and they're extraditing him back when he was.

00:56:40.820 He had 25 good years in Greece, and now he's going to serve, I think, seven or eight years.

00:56:44.820 Not that we're advocating it, but it is sort of an interesting prospect because it's like, God,

00:56:49.820 even if these guys get a life sentence, they'd be lucky to serve it out, given the dynamics in a prison for a cop who beat a man to death.

00:56:56.820 It's just the whole thing is so charged emotionally and otherwise.

00:57:00.820 All right. Let's talk about the Alex Murdoch case, because this case is everywhere.

00:57:04.820 I'm a big fan of true crime podcasts and shows, and they have hit this case.

00:57:09.820 I mean, it must be 25 times between Dateline and 2020 and 48 hours, all of them, like all of them.

00:57:15.820 So people are into this case.

00:57:16.820 Guy down in South Carolina from a long line of legal scholars and successful prosecutors, though this guy was, to put it charitably, the runt of the litter,

00:57:26.820 didn't have anything close to the career that his dad and his granddad and the other guy had above him.

00:57:31.820 And he they first run into trouble when his son has this terrible boat accident.

00:57:37.820 His son, Paul, has this terrible boat accident.

00:57:38.820 And the son, Paul, is reportedly blotto drunk and hits a piling.

00:57:44.820 And a young girl named Mallory goes flying, dies on impact, 19 years old, terrible.

00:57:49.820 So he's facing at least a civil case.

00:57:52.820 Paul Murdoch was as a result of that.

00:57:55.820 And then.

00:57:57.820 Alex Murdoch, next thing we know, he gets into some financial trouble at his law firm, which would later result in him being disbarred.

00:58:05.820 And the next thing we know, his wife and that son, Paul.

00:58:12.820 Are shot to death and murdered on his property.

00:58:16.820 And he says, I was over visiting my mom, didn't have anything to do with it.

00:58:20.820 But I did find the bodies and I called 911.

00:58:23.820 So far, do we agree that's the basic outline of the facts?

00:58:26.820 That's what's being alleged. Yeah.

00:58:28.820 OK.

00:58:29.820 And then, by the way, he had another run in with with a gun where somebody allegedly tried to shoot him.

00:58:35.820 This Alex Murdoch on the side of the road.

00:58:38.820 But he later reportedly confessed he put the guy up to it.

00:58:41.820 That was a whole scheme he claims to get insurance money to his remaining son.

00:58:45.820 Who knows? It was probably going to go to his own pocket.

00:58:47.820 If you know anything about this guy's character, it doesn't sound very high.

00:58:49.820 He didn't get away with that.

00:58:50.820 And there's a there's a whole other layer to the story with a housekeeper. 0.99

00:58:53.820 And so we could keep going.

00:58:55.820 But let's stick with what's happening now.

00:58:57.820 He's on trial now for what exactly, Mark?

00:59:00.820 Well, he's facing murder charges.

00:59:03.820 He's got one hundred and something different charges.

00:59:05.820 But what he's on trial right now for is did he kill his own son and his wife?

00:59:10.820 That's the issue.

00:59:11.820 And, you know, defense lawyers are saying the reason why we think it might have been someone else's because it's payback because his son killed someone two years ago in a boating accident.

00:59:23.820 And boy, that's thin.

00:59:24.820 I know Arthur wouldn't run with that.

00:59:26.820 No way.

00:59:27.820 What they're saying is what he said in the opening statement is there.

00:59:30.820 So there's no video.

00:59:32.820 There's no fingerprints.

00:59:33.820 There's no forensics.

00:59:35.820 There's no blood.

00:59:36.820 There's it's it was two separate weapons that were used, one to kill the son first and one to kill the wife second.

00:59:44.820 And so like who would go in?

00:59:46.820 So they're saying it's two people.

00:59:48.820 It wasn't one person.

00:59:49.820 If one person was going to kill these people, they would use the same weapon.

00:59:52.820 You don't switch weapons midway.

00:59:53.820 He has an alibi that he was with at his mom's house.

00:59:56.820 And his mom is his Alzheimer's.

00:59:58.820 So I don't know if she could even be a witness.

01:00:01.820 So, I mean, the defense has something to go on, unlike the case we just spoke of when everything's on video here.

01:00:07.820 There's no video that there's no confession.

01:00:10.820 There's no admission.

01:00:11.820 There are some politics, though.

01:00:14.820 There are.

01:00:15.820 I don't I don't necessarily agree.

01:00:17.820 There's that one high end thing that says on one of his T-shirts there may have been some blood or something.

01:00:21.820 Wait, let's set it up.

01:00:22.820 Let's set it up before we do that. 0.53

01:00:23.820 So they, of course, if he committed this brutal murder of his son and his wife, with whom he was said to have a bad relationship, though, the defense is denying that his wife and he blew them up.

01:00:36.820 I mean, with a shotgun, there would be blood on him.

01:00:40.820 There would be blood on him.

01:00:41.820 And there there wasn't.

01:00:43.820 There's a dispute about it, but there certainly he was not covered in blood.

01:00:46.820 That's for sure.

01:00:47.820 And now the prosecution saying there was trace blood on this white T-shirt they had tested just this morning.

01:00:52.820 Literally, this case opened on Friday.

01:00:54.820 So we're on second day to just this morning.

01:00:57.820 The cross examination of the witness who said we tested that T-shirt.

01:01:01.820 We found trace blood.

01:01:02.820 That witness admitted that those same positive tests could also indicate rust or bleach.

01:01:08.820 So the defense attorney did a good job poking some holes and there was blood in the T-shirt.

01:01:14.820 The defense lawyer is saying, where would the blood be?

01:01:16.820 Where's the blood?

01:01:17.820 If my guy did it, why does he have this perfectly white T-shirt mark?

01:01:19.820 Go ahead.

01:01:20.820 OK, it does come down to the science, first and foremost, as long as the defense can create a reasonable doubt as to whether that's blood and whether that's the blood that would have come from him shooting.

01:01:31.820 As long as they neutralize it, then then the jurors cannot decide on that issue.

01:01:36.820 Then it comes down to the other stuff.

01:01:38.820 And again, there's no busload of nuns who saw him do it.

01:01:41.820 But again, the question is, and while prosecutors don't have to prove motive, still jurors want to know, why?

01:01:47.820 Why would he do it?

01:01:48.820 What's this?

01:01:49.820 Don't they have a motive?

01:01:50.820 Like, don't they have a motive?

01:01:51.820 I don't know if the judge is going to let it in, but he just got caught stealing $8 million from clients and from law and from his lawyers in his own law firm,

01:02:00.820 including his own brother.

01:02:02.820 And he had just gotten busted.

01:02:04.820 They had just confronted him.

01:02:05.820 That day.

01:02:06.820 And so?

01:02:07.820 Right.

01:02:08.820 And so?

01:02:09.820 Well, his whole thing. 0.94

01:02:10.820 How does killing his son benefit him?

01:02:12.820 So the prosecutor says, killing his son benefits him, and it gives him the ultimate sympathy,

01:02:17.820 the ultimate let's cut our law partner a break because his kid and his wife were just executed.

01:02:24.820 Oh, that is a reach.

01:02:26.820 Oh, my goodness. 1.00

01:02:27.820 Well, he's a lunatic. 1.00

01:02:28.820 He's a lunatic. 1.00

01:02:29.820 If he killed his family, he's a lunatic. 1.00

01:02:31.820 Right. 1.00

01:02:32.820 By the way, if you steal $8.8 million from your clients and your partners, you're also a lunatic. 1.00

01:02:38.820 Maybe a different kind of lunatic. 0.99

01:02:39.820 But hold on. 0.88

01:02:40.820 What do the jurors know?

01:02:42.820 Are they throwing in the kitchen sink?

01:02:44.820 Are they throwing in charges that are not for their consideration?

01:02:47.820 Will that be allowed?

01:02:48.820 If that's the case, that's one thing.

01:02:50.820 It'll grossly prejudice his murder trial.

01:02:52.820 If that's allowed in, then you go, oh, that's right.

01:02:55.820 He is not in his right frame of mind.

01:02:57.820 He would do something this horrific.

01:02:58.820 But to just garner sympathy, I'm going to take out my wife and my kid.

01:03:02.820 That's thin.

01:03:03.820 That's a horrible motive.

01:03:04.820 I don't know if that's coming in.

01:03:05.820 Is that coming in, Arthur?

01:03:06.820 Do we know whether that's coming in for motive?

01:03:09.820 It's the judge.

01:03:10.820 It'll be up to the judge's discretion.

01:03:12.820 But I think the prosecutor opened on it.

01:03:14.820 So if the judge allowed the prosecutor to open on it, then the judge is probably is letting it in.

01:03:19.820 If we go back to the blood for a second, the flip side of the coin about him not having blood on him is he tells the paramedics or the 911 caller, I checked for a pulse on both of them.

01:03:31.820 And they're both covered.

01:03:32.820 I mean, his son's head is blown off.

01:03:34.820 They said there was blood dripping from the ceiling.

01:03:37.820 They're saying if he really tested them or put his hands on them to check their pulse, he's going to have some blood on him.

01:03:44.820 So the fact that he doesn't have any blood on him means he didn't check it.

01:03:47.820 However, however, first of all, we are hearing that there was blood on his shirt, assuming the jurors buy that it's blood and not, you know, barbecue sauce.

01:03:55.820 His fingers, his hands.

01:03:56.820 But there's a difference between blood that's soaked on a white shirt that would be consistent with leaning over someone and getting that type of transfer.

01:04:06.820 And then little bits and splatter that you would expect from someone who shoots someone with a shotgun.

01:04:11.820 They should easily be able to discern what the difference is.

01:04:14.820 If he did it, if he committed this crime, there was some garment he should have been wearing that would be covered in blood.

01:04:20.820 Right. I mean, I don't know how close they're saying it would have to be.

01:04:22.820 They're not alleging he was across the way.

01:04:25.820 There is gunshot.

01:04:27.820 Talk about that.

01:04:28.820 The trench coat back at his mommy's house where he ran.

01:04:31.820 Right.

01:04:32.820 That to me, that's huge.

01:04:33.820 Arthur was saying that the defense is saying there's no forensics to me on a jacket of some sort, like a trench coat or whatever that he left at his mother's place, the exact place that he's claiming he went to.

01:04:46.820 And that that he was there, that's his alibi.

01:04:49.820 Well, that's huge.

01:04:50.820 How do you explain that?

01:04:51.820 Well, where's the blood?

01:04:52.820 If that's if he's wearing that trench coat when he committed these alleged crimes, Arthur, wouldn't it have blood on it?

01:04:58.820 You would assume so.

01:04:59.820 Well, Megan, my understanding is they only recovered one of the two weapons.

01:05:03.820 So I don't think they have either weapon.

01:05:06.820 I don't think they found either weapon.

01:05:08.820 They believe they know what the one weapon was because it matches ammo all over the Murdoch property.

01:05:13.820 And they were able to say this, this like to make the link.

01:05:17.820 But I don't think they have either gun.

01:05:19.820 OK, maybe I'm misinformed.

01:05:21.820 But where my thinking is he got rid of this, probably the second weapon he used.

01:05:26.820 And those clothes, he got rid of those as well.

01:05:29.820 I mean, it's not that hard to change your clothes.

01:05:31.820 There's like a long gap between when the car, when the autopsy was conducted with a medical examiner says they died.

01:05:39.820 And when he actually calls 9-1-1, plenty of time to destroy some clothes and change, clean up.

01:05:46.820 And it's a seventeen hundred acre property, I believe.

01:05:49.820 I mean, it's huge.

01:05:50.820 And it's been in his family for years.

01:05:52.820 So this guy knows it.

01:05:53.820 He would have had plenty of time to go hide those guns.

01:05:57.820 And my producer, Debbie, is confirming they did not find the guns to get to get rid of those guns and to get rid of whatever bloody thing he may have been wearing.

01:06:05.820 And the defense is trying to explain away that trench coat with the gun residue on it, Mark, on the inside of the trench coat that he went and left at his mommy's.

01:06:13.820 He ran to mommy after the alleged crime with Alzheimer's.

01:06:15.820 Great alibi.

01:06:17.820 He they're saying the defense is suggesting that's from the gun he took once he stumbled upon this bloody crime scene.

01:06:28.820 He armed himself.

01:06:29.820 He was discombobulated and he got a gun just in case there was a killer still on sight.

01:06:35.820 OK, so as Arthur knows, our job as defense lawyers is to come up with a reasonable hypothesis of innocence.

01:06:43.820 This is a circumstantial case, which means there's no busload of nuns who saw him do it.

01:06:48.820 Every little piece of the puzzle, if it can be explained away, at least with an equally plausible defense theory, negates the prosecutor's case.

01:06:58.820 So you just came up with one.

01:06:59.820 Thanks to your producers.

01:07:00.820 That explains the gunshot residue.

01:07:02.820 Boom.

01:07:03.820 Check that out.

01:07:04.820 They're hired.

01:07:05.820 They run the defense.

01:07:06.820 There was.

01:07:07.820 I got that from.

01:07:08.820 It's Dick Herpootlium.

01:07:09.820 Remember him from our Fox News days?

01:07:10.820 You guys probably did a Kelly's quarterback against him.

01:07:12.820 Or I don't know, because he was a he was a Democratic lawmaker at the time.

01:07:16.820 I don't think he was like doing a legal role.

01:07:19.820 He delivered a pretty powerful opening statement.

01:07:22.820 You know, he's not pulling any punches here.

01:07:24.820 And that's what you have to do when, you know, public opinions get you.

01:07:28.820 And, you know, he has the living son who's sitting in the courtroom.

01:07:31.820 He sat behind his dad during opening statements.

01:07:35.820 And everyone assumed, you know, because, you know, the world that we live in, if you sit behind the prosecutor, you're on that team.

01:07:41.820 And if you sit behind the defense attorney, you're on that team.

01:07:43.820 And then when he was interviewed, I believe over the weekend, he was confronted with, oh, you're sitting behind your dad.

01:07:48.820 You're supporting him.

01:07:49.820 And he said, no one should think that I'm supporting my father.

01:07:52.820 And both sides, I think, are saying that he's going to testify on their behalf.

01:07:55.820 So that poor kid's head's got to be spinning off his shoulders.

01:07:58.820 What I don't understand is, OK, if he didn't do it, right, do you buy that somehow two years later someone's seeking revenge by killing the mother and the son?

01:08:14.820 That just doesn't make any sense to me.

01:08:18.820 Well, I mean, I guess if we're going to go down this lane, the theory is because it was a very big deal when this young woman was killed on that boat and it made national headlines.

01:08:28.320 The family is very prominent and so on.

01:08:30.320 And then they were accused of trying to cover it up, like go down there and control the testimonials of everybody who was on the boat to try to make it look like Paul Murtoch wasn't driving.

01:08:38.320 In the end, it all came out, but it was very charged, emotionally charged.

01:08:43.320 So it perhaps the theory is somebody went to kill Paul.

01:08:48.320 They went to kill Paul and the mom's there and they say Paul was killed first. 0.59

01:08:52.320 And then it's like, well, now you've got to kill the eyewitness. 0.96

01:08:55.320 You know, it's unfortunate the mom was there, but she's got to go, too. 0.93

01:08:58.320 Two years later, somehow they wanted to seek their revenge.

01:09:03.320 Listen, all I'll say about that, Mark, is I very recently handled the case.

01:09:07.320 There was the cover of all the newspapers here in New York where a man was accused of killing a Chinese food restaurant owner because he didn't give him enough duck sauce.

01:09:17.320 And the whole issue was about he didn't get enough duck sauce and soy sauce.

01:09:21.320 And nine months later, he went back and executed him.

01:09:24.320 So my all I'm saying is never say never in New York, that driver of the boat would have been prosecuted for vehicular homicide for sure.

01:09:33.320 That didn't happen down there in South in South Carolina.

01:09:36.320 Maybe that's because the dad was tinkering and a family member who's suffering such a loss of their beautiful child says, you know what, if there's going to be no justice, no justice.

01:09:46.320 Well, I'm going to make their I'm going to make their be just anyone who's had an egg roll with no soy sauce or duck sauce on it understands.

01:09:53.320 I'm joking. You need it.

01:09:54.320 You need it's not not a cause for murder, but you do need the appropriate duck sauce.

01:09:57.320 It's not.

01:09:58.320 Well, I'm saying that's all I'm saying, really.

01:10:00.320 Right. So it's macabre. It's it's dark humor because we're lawyers.

01:10:04.320 And this is what we this is how we manage these dark cases.

01:10:07.320 My heart. My heart goes out to the family.

01:10:09.320 Oh, my God. You're the biggest. You're the biggest bleeding heart.

01:10:12.320 We know it's a miracle. You make it as an attorney.

01:10:15.320 You're such a bleeding heart. OK, so let's get into some of the testimonials that we've heard because they're they're interesting.

01:10:20.320 So here's one of the witnesses.

01:10:23.320 This is Daniel Green, a sergeant, and he's showing and we're talking about his police officer body camera.

01:10:31.320 And the reason I think this is introduced is to show what Alex Murtaugh told the officer when this officer got on scene and how Alex Murtaugh seemed to be Murdoch.

01:10:44.320 Sorry, Murdoch seemed to be trying to say, oh, it was somebody who's mad at Paul because of that boat ride.

01:10:50.320 Oh, he's like sort of laying the foundation right from the get go.

01:10:53.320 This is the prosecution's witness.

01:10:54.320 Let's take a listen to soundbite 17.

01:10:57.320 This is the firearm you brought from inside the house.

01:11:06.320 Yes, sir.

01:11:07.320 I would get this is a long story.

01:11:09.320 My son was in a boat wreck a few months back.

01:11:13.320 He's been getting threats.

01:11:14.320 Most of us been benign stuff.

01:11:16.320 We didn't take serious.

01:11:18.320 You know, he's been getting like punched.

01:11:21.320 I know that somebody I know that's what it is.

01:11:25.320 Did you get home right when you called or did you go to the house first?

01:11:28.320 Where is the house?

01:11:29.320 I came to the house first.

01:11:30.320 My mom has late stages Alzheimer's and my dad is in the hospital.

01:11:34.320 I left.

01:11:35.320 I don't know what time.

01:11:36.320 I can go back on my phone and tell you the exact time.

01:11:39.320 Did you check?

01:11:40.320 Did I check what?

01:11:41.320 Did you check ma'am?

01:11:42.320 We got medical guys that are that's that's that's what they're going to do.

01:11:46.320 Okay.

01:11:47.320 What are they doing?

01:11:48.320 Can they hurry?

01:11:49.320 They are.

01:11:50.320 Yes, sir.

01:11:51.320 So he says. 1.00

01:11:52.320 Bull crap. 1.00

01:11:53.320 I'm calling bull crap. 1.00

01:11:54.320 I know that's what it is. 0.99

01:11:56.320 Go ahead, Mark.

01:11:57.320 Megan Megan.

01:11:58.320 Right away.

01:11:59.320 He's saying I know what it is.

01:12:00.320 No, I know that's what I came up with beforehand.

01:12:03.320 And I'm now I'm going to send that to you.

01:12:05.320 I that that I is so transparent to me.

01:12:08.320 Who says I know that's what it is.

01:12:09.320 Go ahead, Arthur.

01:12:12.320 You know, when you hear that.

01:12:14.320 We're all married.

01:12:15.320 We would love our spouses.

01:12:16.320 We all have kids like I'd be like in the fetal position.

01:12:20.320 Like I don't think I'd be on.

01:12:21.320 I'm not exaggerating.

01:12:22.320 Like I don't think I'd even be able to function at that level.

01:12:25.320 If I walked in.

01:12:26.320 I mean, you both know my wife.

01:12:27.320 You know my children.

01:12:28.320 And that's what I saw.

01:12:29.320 I would.

01:12:30.320 I wouldn't.

01:12:31.320 I'd be incapacitated.

01:12:32.320 I wouldn't be talking about plots.

01:12:34.320 And then and he talks about the plot.

01:12:35.320 And then he asks someone taking care of them.

01:12:37.320 If I was screaming anything, I'd just be like, give me an ambulance.

01:12:42.320 I mean, I'd be losing my mind that way.

01:12:44.320 Not like, let me tell you who I think did this.

01:12:46.320 Oh, wait.

01:12:47.320 To your point.

01:12:48.320 A random.

01:12:49.320 A random home invasion.

01:12:50.320 Like what?

01:12:51.320 I'm going to start steering, you know, a precious.

01:12:54.320 Yeah.

01:12:55.320 A law enforcement resources because I think I know who did it.

01:12:58.320 No, I can't eliminate, you know, an armed home invasion robbery or.

01:13:01.320 Something else.

01:13:02.320 No.

01:13:03.320 OK, so.

01:13:04.320 And to your point about how any normal person would be.

01:13:07.320 Listen to this.

01:13:08.320 How cavalier he is.

01:13:09.320 Again, this.

01:13:10.320 This is continuation of Sergeant Daniel Green.

01:13:12.320 His testimony and his exchange with Alec Murdoch.

01:13:15.320 Murdoch.

01:13:16.320 Pretty confusing because it's spelled M-U-R-D-A-U-G-H, but apparently it's pronounced Murdoch.

01:13:21.320 Here they are.

01:13:22.320 Listen to the cavalier nature of Murdoch in this soundbite 19.

01:13:26.320 I'm sorry.

01:13:27.320 You're fine.

01:13:28.320 I'm very sorry.

01:13:29.320 I'm sorry.

01:13:30.320 You're fine.

01:13:31.320 I'm very sorry.

01:13:39.320 I'll call her.

01:13:40.320 What's her name?

01:13:44.320 Her name's Maggie Murdoch.

01:13:48.320 Margaret Brandstetter Murdoch.

01:13:51.320 How you doing?

01:13:56.320 What did the defendant just say?

01:13:59.320 Let me back it up.

01:14:02.320 Margaret Brandstetter Murdoch.

01:14:05.320 How you doing?

01:14:10.320 What did the defendant say right there?

01:14:12.320 So I'm in the process of gathering information about the two victims from Mr. Murdoch.

01:14:16.320 Somebody walks by behind me and he pauses what he's telling me to say, hey, how you doing?

01:14:21.320 How you doing?

01:14:22.320 How you doing?

01:14:23.320 And who was that?

01:14:24.320 He said that too.

01:14:25.320 I'm not 100% certain.

01:14:26.320 I believe it was a fire rescue individual.

01:14:28.320 To your point, Arthur.

01:14:30.320 All right.

01:14:31.320 I'm a big greeter of people, you know, under those circumstances.

01:14:36.320 You know, I hear in this statement and, you know, you put yourself in that position.

01:14:40.320 And you, I mean, it doesn't get worse, right?

01:14:44.320 Your spouse and your kid.

01:14:45.320 I just, yeah, it seems very well rehearsed.

01:14:49.320 And look, look, look what the guy does afterwards. 1.00

01:14:52.320 Now he's going to pay someone to shoot him and kill him so he can give his son money. 0.99

01:14:57.320 And look what he did before. 1.00

01:14:58.320 He stole almost $10 million.

01:15:00.320 So, you know, I'm done with him.

01:15:03.320 Yeah.

01:15:04.320 I'm done with this guy.

01:15:05.320 He will not be in the running to replace Dick Hart Foote if this thing goes south.

01:15:10.320 Let me just ask you this before we wrap this case up for today.

01:15:13.320 You know, these juries, Mark CSI, they want fingerprints.

01:15:16.320 They want DNA. 0.96

01:15:17.320 They want all the things that they see on the movies.

01:15:20.320 And it doesn't look like they're going to get a ton of that here.

01:15:23.320 So, you know, beyond a shadow and beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:15:27.320 That's what we talked about.

01:15:28.320 The burden of proof is high for these prosecutors.

01:15:31.320 I don't know.

01:15:32.320 Slam dunk.

01:15:33.320 Use those words for the prosecution here.

01:15:35.320 I would never use slam dunk.

01:15:36.320 In fact, what I just used for my jurors last week and my jurors are deliberating right this

01:15:41.320 second.

01:15:42.320 We put up a chart and we said in the worst case scenario, if you think that he's definitely

01:15:48.320 possibly guilty or you're absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's probably

01:15:53.320 guilty, you must acquit.

01:15:56.320 You must find him not guilty.

01:15:58.320 Hmm.

01:15:59.320 There's going to be a lot of evidence that this was I think that this is not a good marriage

01:16:03.320 between the two of them and that the son Paul had brought a lot of problems into the

01:16:08.320 family because of that boat accident.

01:16:09.320 And while he's going to claim it was a delightful marriage, I think the evidence won't support

01:16:14.320 it.

01:16:15.320 We'll see whether Buster his other son.

01:16:17.320 Yeah.

01:16:18.320 When his other son testifies, if he testifies, I mean, that's where you would believe the

01:16:22.320 most accurate information would come at least about the status of the marriage.

01:16:27.320 Mm hmm. 0.98

01:16:28.320 This guy was unhinged.

01:16:29.320 And it's a pleasure to watch him actually have to face justice and the proceeding.

01:16:34.320 And I'm glad that he's got a good lawyer, too, because we need that as well.

01:16:36.320 Right.

01:16:37.320 And I'm glad that there's much, much more to go through with Mark and Arthur right after

01:16:41.320 this.

01:16:42.320 Mark, so you're waiting on a jury right now.

01:16:45.320 Like there's they're deliberating at the second.

01:16:47.320 You're with me.

01:16:48.320 Yes, there is.

01:16:49.320 I'm here in the Miami federal courthouse on the 14th floor in the attorney's lounge.

01:16:52.320 The jurors began the deliberation on Friday.

01:16:54.320 It was supposed to be about a three to four week trial that this no nonsense judge condensed

01:16:59.320 into a two week trial.

01:17:01.320 They're now on to their third week deliberating.

01:17:03.320 Now they're second day.

01:17:05.320 And my client will either get his freedom or 20 to 30 years for Medicare fraud.

01:17:10.320 So are you on pins and needles right now?

01:17:13.320 Question.

01:17:14.320 It's tough.

01:17:15.320 It's tough.

01:17:16.320 I believe in my client's innocence.

01:17:18.320 He took the witness stand.

01:17:19.320 He was courageous.

01:17:21.320 And it's just tough.

01:17:23.320 The presumption of innocence doesn't really exist.

01:17:25.320 When you see someone handcuffed on the street or you see them on the news, you don't say,

01:17:29.320 why are they arresting that innocent person?

01:17:31.320 So magically they come into court.

01:17:33.320 The judge gives us a symbolic 15 minutes to find out who they are.

01:17:36.320 And and we're supposed to know who these people are.

01:17:38.320 And we pick them.

01:17:39.320 And not to go too deep into the weeds, but Megan, it's something that attorneys are really

01:17:45.320 upset about is judges are cutting down the time that we have to interview jurors more

01:17:50.320 and more and more.

01:17:51.320 The Harvey Weinstein case, he gave me 15 minutes to talk to 22 jurors, potential jurors.

01:17:57.320 What could you learn from 22 people in 15 minutes?

01:18:00.320 A case came down, though, Mark, here in the Second Circuit, the federal court that's saying

01:18:06.320 that judges cannot do that any longer.

01:18:08.320 And they reversed the case because they did not allow the lawyers adequate time to talk

01:18:14.320 about who's going to be these impartial people who are judging you.

01:18:18.320 So unfortunately, that case law hasn't reached the 11th circuit over here, number one.

01:18:22.320 Number two, I had 48 jurors. 0.64

01:18:24.320 And when you talk for 15 minutes, the first minute is devoted to who the hell you are 0.61

01:18:28.320 and to thank them for their assistance.

01:18:30.320 Now you're down to 14 minutes.

01:18:31.320 You spent about five on that one out of 48 whose father is was a cop her whole life.

01:18:36.320 So you've got to spend some time on her. 0.90

01:18:37.320 I mean, it's just it's ludicrous. 0.57

01:18:39.320 You don't know what you're getting.

01:18:40.320 And I will tell you, I'll never forget.

01:18:42.320 This was early on in my career, probably 25 years ago.

01:18:44.320 I tried one of my first federal cases and we waited and all the jurors got together

01:18:49.320 and they said, we have to send this note to the judge.

01:18:51.320 So everybody had to come in and their question was the following.

01:18:54.320 What dose they spell does D. O. S. E.

01:18:59.320 You know, most U. N. A. M. O. U. S.

01:19:03.320 Mean. What does you know most mean spell does and unanimous incorrectly?

01:19:08.320 And they didn't know what it meant, even though the judge had just told them.

01:19:10.320 And it was right there in their jury packet.

01:19:12.320 So that's what we're dealing with.

01:19:14.320 All right. So I honestly I it would be a dereliction of duty if I did not use this moment to talk about the most famous recent case in which this has been a problem.

01:19:23.320 And that is the case of Ghislaine Maxwell, who had a juror on her panel who that was the one case I looked at.

01:19:30.320 They always try to claim some juror did something.

01:19:32.320 This was one where I was like, you know what? She actually might have this.

01:19:35.320 But the judge disagreed with me because the juror had been like had suffered a sexual assault or some sort of abuse as a child was a male and didn't disclose it twice on the jury form and then used it in the deliberations to try to swing the verdict against her.

01:19:50.320 If only I knew a lawyer who had a legal connection to Ghislaine Maxwell that I could ask about.

01:19:57.320 Oh, oh, wait, he's been such a busy boy.

01:19:59.320 Andrew Cuomo, all of the greatest people come into your life.

01:20:03.320 And now you're you. Are you representing her?

01:20:05.320 That's what Mark and I do. That's what we do.

01:20:07.320 We do. But actually, that is it's a very, very, very big issue, especially since after the verdict, this juror bragged about the fact that he like swayed the whole jury pool, like the whole all of his fellow jurors saying, look, I went through this myself.

01:20:23.320 And you know why you don't believe that witness? Well, let me tell you why you should believe that witness, because when I went through it, I felt the same way.

01:20:30.320 And that's after swearing under oath on this form that that person was never a victim.

01:20:36.320 I already said all that. I get to the fact of representing Ghislaine. Do you represent her?

01:20:40.320 Yeah, we're writing her appeal as we speak. How's that going?

01:20:43.320 Coming on screen because we're working on it right now.

01:20:46.320 When you go in to meet her for the first time, do you ask the questions? Do you say, like, did you do it?

01:20:51.320 I think Mark will agree. Not not when someone's been convicted already.

01:20:58.320 There are plenty of Megan. Megan, we're not reporters.

01:21:01.320 No, we don't. There's there's plenty of time. Could you just do it for me?

01:21:05.320 If you want to get into it, there's plenty of clients first come into the office.

01:21:09.320 I say something like, look, if you did this, don't have me poking around and making finding more evidence against you.

01:21:16.320 You might want to let me know what's going on. And most of the time they come clean with me.

01:21:19.320 And most of the time what Mark and I do, luckily, is represent people who have done something wrong and we mitigate it.

01:21:26.320 We make a horrible situation bad.

01:21:28.320 Luckily, we don't live in a society where there's a ton of innocent folks getting locked up.

01:21:33.320 Imagine how horrible our world would be if that was the case.

01:21:36.320 I can just imagine Arthur's. So do I hire the private investigator or do I not? Your choice.

01:21:43.320 Exactly.

01:21:45.320 OK, got it. All right. Let's move on.

01:21:47.320 Well, since you brought it up, she's been a wonderful client.

01:21:51.320 She's a very intelligent woman who knows every word of every page of her transcript and has been very helpful in writing her appeal. 0.89

01:21:58.320 As says Harvey Weinstein, he knows every word of every page of it.

01:22:02.320 And he was very involved, Harvey Weinstein, in writing this appeal to the highest court here in the state of New York.

01:22:07.320 I look forward to you setting up my interviews with both of them.

01:22:11.320 Let's let's talk about let's talk about TJ Holmes and Amy Robach, who are now officially out at ABC News.

01:22:21.320 They lost their jobs altogether. And before you say, oh, sad, they just fell in love.

01:22:26.320 It happens outside of a marriage. And I understand all that.

01:22:29.320 I think there is a very good reason why they lost their jobs.

01:22:33.320 I think it was two things, the ridiculous PR behavior that they engaged in post the scandal breaking.

01:22:40.320 They handled the media exactly the wrong way, in my view.

01:22:43.320 And number two, it came out that he had all these other alleged affair partners at ABC.

01:22:50.320 And you tell me, Arthur, because my position, my suspicion is they were in a position where what are you going to do?

01:22:56.320 You're going to you're going to fire the the black anchor and you're going to let the white female stay. 1.00

01:23:03.320 That can't happen. She had to go to even though that investigation appears to have only found her prior sins as being she had a bottle of liquor sealed in her office. 0.98

01:23:14.320 And somebody claimed she showed up drunk after some sporting event on the air, which I don't believe either.

01:23:19.320 But I bet you if you cast a wide net, you'd find 10 people who showed up drunk on the air at ABC at one point or another.

01:23:24.320 So what do you make of it?

01:23:26.320 If they're at will employees, I mean, we get people coming to our office about these questions that they could fire them for any reason they want.

01:23:34.320 They definitely had contracts. They are not at will employees.

01:23:37.320 They definitely can take them off. They can take them off the air.

01:23:40.320 And yes, Megan, I have negotiated these for cause contracts and these the networks, they dig in so hard on basically firing them for cause is whatever the network kind of feels is for cause.

01:23:53.320 They will not give you a definition. Does for cause mean it's someone who's been arrested?

01:23:57.320 Does for cause mean someone who's been caught in an extramarital relationship?

01:24:00.320 They keep it as general and as amorphous as they can.

01:24:03.320 And as you saw the memo that was written by the head of ABC, who just said, basically, it was too much of a distraction internally for us and for the people inside ABC and externally.

01:24:14.320 I do not see them winning a lawsuit, especially as you said, the way they handle the media afterwards.

01:24:19.320 There's pictures of them smooching and she's jumping on them and all over the place. 1.00

01:24:24.320 It's just that they didn't do anything to help themselves.

01:24:27.320 They've got a fuel to the fire as opposed to putting the fire out.

01:24:31.320 They did the disclosure. I'm friends with Amy. I think the world of her.

01:24:36.320 I think that when you, the anchor, become the story, that's where it's problematic for the viewers.

01:24:43.320 And I think that that's why they they let them go.

01:24:47.320 They became the story. And it's hard to separate them talking about someone else's scandal when there's one to the viewers anyway.

01:24:56.320 Right. Involving those to see, I have a strong thought on this.

01:24:59.320 I have a very strong thought on this. I think those two could have come out.

01:25:03.320 They could have said on the show that the next day, because they were on the air one day with the scandal having been broken by the Daily Mail.

01:25:10.320 And they could have said, we are very embarrassed.

01:25:14.320 It's true. This was a private matter that we wanted to resolve privately, given the fact that we have kids and we have spouses.

01:25:20.320 But we couldn't, given the Daily Mail report.

01:25:24.320 And we are going to take a leave of absence to to deal with this.

01:25:28.320 And we hope that we can earn your forgiveness and trust when we come back.

01:25:31.320 And then lay low. Stop with the very clearly orchestrated photo events in South Beach, where they were all over each other, kissing and fondling while their spouses, who they cheated on, are posting sad face pictures with their kids who look incredibly forlorn.

01:25:51.320 That was a massive PR error. They 100 percent orchestrated it, in my opinion.

01:25:58.320 And then I give you this. Even now, even now, there's this picture broken.

01:26:02.320 It's on page six of the two that she's after the news that they're they're out at ABC.

01:26:07.320 What what, Debbie? 0.90

01:26:09.320 So Daily Mail. OK, Daily Mail exclusive.

01:26:12.320 And there she is. This is as my friend Donna, fellow lawyer, texted me, you guys.

01:26:16.320 What a happy, non-performative embrace.

01:26:19.320 Don't you routinely jump into Doug's arms after a nice lunch out?

01:26:22.320 They're still doing it. They don't understand.

01:26:25.320 No one looks at this and says true love.

01:26:28.320 They cheated on their spouses.

01:26:30.320 They cheated on their children.

01:26:32.320 Yes, it happens.

01:26:33.320 It's sad.

01:26:34.320 Act like it's sad.

01:26:36.320 Stop projecting. 0.98

01:26:37.320 I don't give a shit about anybody who I hurt. 0.99

01:26:40.320 All right. 0.97

01:26:41.320 So my question to you, my question to you, Megan, is you said it was highly orchestrated, right?

01:26:46.320 The South Beach photos for what benefit?

01:26:49.320 In other words, why?

01:26:51.320 Mark, what?

01:26:52.320 What benefit did they?

01:26:53.320 Hello.

01:26:54.320 Let me tell you, let me tell you, let me put in terms that my friend Arthur can understand.

01:26:57.320 This is a visual for the listening audience at home.

01:26:59.320 This is what they're doing, Arthur.

01:27:01.320 Right.

01:27:02.320 It's an Italian thing.

01:27:03.320 I'm putting the hand underneath the neck and motioning forward like F off.

01:27:08.320 We're living our best life.

01:27:10.320 We're not cheaters.

01:27:11.320 We're in love.

01:27:13.320 That's not how you handle it.

01:27:14.320 There are hurt people.

01:27:16.320 Everyone can understand humanity and love relationships that go sour and all that and mistakes.

01:27:21.320 People can understand that. 0.98

01:27:23.320 This looks like I don't give a shit who I hurt. 0.99

01:27:26.320 Look at me. 0.99

01:27:27.320 I'm in Miami.

01:27:28.320 I'm having a great time. 0.61

01:27:29.320 Screw my kids. 0.99

01:27:31.320 And that's what I think about all the time when I saw that Christmas part picture.

01:27:35.320 And, you know, it's it's a different world with this all this technology, you know, back

01:27:39.320 then.

01:27:40.320 All right.

01:27:41.320 It would be in the newspaper for a day and disappear.

01:27:42.320 Now these kids are going to be seeing that for the rest of their lives.

01:27:45.320 They Google Christmas Day 2022.

01:27:47.320 They're going to see their mom, you know, cheating on their dad and vice versa. 0.99

01:27:52.320 And that just that's heartbreaking.

01:27:54.320 If Megan, look what you're recommending they would have done in hindsight.

01:27:58.320 It's sounds brilliant.

01:28:00.320 I said it in the moment.

01:28:01.320 My audience is my witness.

01:28:03.320 OK, but let me ask you this.

01:28:05.320 Would it have worked?

01:28:06.320 Have we become such a puritanical society?

01:28:09.320 You know, two police officers just got suspended. 0.87

01:28:11.320 They're in a consensual relationship because they had sex in the locker room.

01:28:15.320 Why should they get suspended for having sex in the in the precinct locker room?

01:28:20.320 What did they do wrong?

01:28:21.320 They got suspended.

01:28:22.320 What are they doing?

01:28:23.320 I would have been with you if they had just had an extra an extra marital affair. 1.00

01:28:27.320 You know, like it would have 50 percent of marriages plus and in divorce like people obviously make mistakes.

01:28:32.320 And, you know, it happens, but they handled it so poorly.

01:28:36.320 They showed no remorse.

01:28:38.320 And then it turned out that this guy's been fishing off the company pier for years with people who are his subordinates.

01:28:44.320 So there was no way in which T.J. Holmes was keeping his job.

01:28:47.320 He was starting to look like a junior Matt Lauer.

01:28:49.320 So he was getting fired because it was she was his equal.

01:28:53.320 But the others were like young girls coming in who wanted a mentor whom he allegedly took advantage of.

01:28:58.320 The record on him was getting worse by the day, according to Daily Mail and New York Post that have had exclusive reporting on this.

01:29:04.320 And I do believe they were in a position given today's climate where there was absolutely no way where they could fire him and keep her.

01:29:10.320 So in the end, they both got out like that relationship.

01:29:13.320 Wait a minute, Megan.

01:29:14.320 Enjoy your embrace.

01:29:15.320 Based on what you just said, though, if they said, look, he was fishing on the company pier.

01:29:21.320 It's not just this one issue.

01:29:23.320 There's this other young lady and there's this other young lady and the investigation is ongoing.

01:29:27.320 We're going to let him go.

01:29:28.320 But for us, it appears she only did this one time because they have no courage.

01:29:33.320 They could never save the white female anchor. 0.97

01:29:37.320 Look what happened at NBC when I went there.

01:29:39.320 And Tamron Hall used to host that hour with some other people.

01:29:43.320 And the NAACP started writing letters to NBC.

01:29:46.320 How could you replace this black woman with a white woman, you know, creating like a race war over? 1.00

01:29:51.320 It's like, my God, there are all sorts of considerations that go. 0.54

01:29:54.320 Why does everything have to be reduced to skin color?

01:29:56.320 But I guarantee there is no courage at ABC.

01:29:59.320 They would never have fired him and not her.

01:30:01.320 No way. I don't.

01:30:02.320 I don't think that that was ever a consideration.

01:30:04.320 Going back to my point earlier, the reason why they had to remove them is because this was scandalous.

01:30:10.320 They became they put them back on the air the next day after it broke.

01:30:14.320 If this was such an obvious distraction and scandalous, they wouldn't have done that.

01:30:17.320 It wasn't going to work.

01:30:19.320 And quite frankly, I can't debate either of you when you pull the kid card.

01:30:22.320 You know, there's no excuse when you when you're picturing these sweet, innocent kids, however old they are, you know, seeing mommy on South Beach parading around.

01:30:31.320 You don't win.

01:30:32.320 And that's it.

01:30:33.320 So that's why everybody knows that.

01:30:35.320 I mean, every time these women are throwing themselves at him, he thinks of his children and that's what prevents him.

01:30:40.320 No, no, no.

01:30:41.320 The line, actually, when I was younger and I'm happily married, but someone one of my buddies say, oh, she's hot. 0.99

01:30:46.320 I'm like, yeah, she's hot, but not hot enough to only see my kids on the weekends, you know?

01:30:51.320 So, you know.

01:30:52.320 All right.

01:30:53.320 Wait, we got three minutes left and we got to get to romance girl.

01:30:55.320 So this is a great story.

01:30:57.320 It was on the front page of The New York Times a couple of weeks ago.

01:31:00.320 They're apparently the romance author world is super toxic.

01:31:05.320 Who knew?

01:31:07.320 There's an author named Susan Meechan who faked her own death in what they're calling Romancelandia. 0.81

01:31:15.320 47 years old, homemaker, author of romance novels, lives in Tennessee.

01:31:20.320 And one day someone made a post to her online site saying that she had died.

01:31:27.320 Author Susan Meechan left this world behind Tuesday night for bigger and better things.

01:31:31.320 Please leave us alone.

01:31:32.320 We have no desire in this messed up to remain in this messed up industry.

01:31:37.320 Now, two years later, how long?

01:31:40.320 How long ago?

01:31:41.320 How long did it take for her to come out? 0.69

01:31:43.320 Yeah.

01:31:44.320 Three years later, two and a half.

01:31:45.320 She posts that she's alive.

01:31:48.320 She's alive.

01:31:50.320 Let the fun begin, she says.

01:31:52.320 Thank God.

01:31:53.320 Thank God.

01:31:54.320 Praise Jesus.

01:31:55.320 She lives.

01:31:56.320 And now she's blaming it all on her family.

01:31:59.320 She had bipolar.

01:32:00.320 They intervened to get her off of this toxic website. 1.00

01:32:03.320 And there are very angry people in Romancelandia, Mark, who say they've been hurt by this.

01:32:10.320 Well, they should be.

01:32:11.320 She committed fraud.

01:32:12.320 But I'm torn.

01:32:13.320 You know me.

01:32:14.320 The minute you mentioned bipolar, I'm like, oh, Christ.

01:32:17.320 She really does have genuine issues that she didn't seek out.

01:32:21.320 And so I'm sure that played a role.

01:32:23.320 Maybe she thought she was dead.

01:32:25.320 I don't know.

01:32:26.320 No.

01:32:27.320 Doesn't the husband take a lot of the blame?

01:32:29.320 The husband says he did it.

01:32:31.320 And I'm the one who said that she died and she was losing her mind.

01:32:34.320 But she was suffering from mental illness.

01:32:36.320 Two and a half years passed after that.

01:32:38.320 He asked about Mark mentions the word fraud.

01:32:41.320 I mean, that's the real thing.

01:32:43.320 Like, did they did they collect on an insurance policy?

01:32:46.320 Did they do?

01:32:47.320 No, they say they didn't.

01:32:49.320 They say they had they benefited not at all.

01:32:51.320 However, some complaining fans say that they bought her books like, oh, she's dead.

01:32:56.320 My God, I want to remember her and her beautiful writings about.

01:33:00.320 Hold on.

01:33:01.320 Canadian Debbie pulled a sample sample. 0.73

01:33:03.320 Chance encounters born with the world at my feet.

01:33:06.320 She was the only thing I had to work hard for or love to last a lifetime.

01:33:09.320 I was born into wealth and prestige.

01:33:11.320 There was nothing I couldn't have.

01:33:12.320 Or so I thought one night is all it took to change my world.

01:33:17.320 They wanted more of that.

01:33:18.320 They bought those books, which they might not have otherwise purchased.

01:33:21.320 Can they get their money back?

01:33:22.320 I know.

01:33:23.320 No lawyer is going to take the case to get back twenty two dollars of a book.

01:33:28.320 Sorry.

01:33:29.320 You're out.

01:33:30.320 Megan, that was just a silly question.

01:33:32.320 You read that really good, Megan.

01:33:33.320 You read it really well.

01:33:34.320 Maybe you should think of a job change.

01:33:36.320 Canadian Debbie just announced before the segment that she inadvertently and trying 1.00

01:33:41.320 to, like, copy some of the excerpt excerpts so we could discuss them inadvertently

01:33:45.320 purchased love to last a lifetime.

01:33:48.320 And now the audio is on her husband's account because that's where her purchase.

01:33:53.320 His Canadian husband is wondering what the hell this is about.

01:33:58.320 Intent.

01:33:59.320 All right, Mark.

01:34:00.320 Good luck with your jury.

01:34:01.320 And Arthur, I look forward to your appearance on the show with Ghislaine and then Harvey.

01:34:06.320 We'll pick it up later.

01:34:07.320 Let me know.

01:34:08.320 You got my digits.

01:34:09.320 All right, guys.

01:34:10.320 Lots of love.

01:34:11.320 See you later.

01:34:12.320 See you soon.

01:34:13.320 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:34:17.320 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - January 30, 2023

Racial Police Violence Spin, and Alex Murdaugh on Trial, with Larry Elder, Arthur Aidala, and Mark Eiglarsh ｜ Ep. 482

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