The Megyn Kelly Show - Radical Trans Ideology Hurting Kids and Female Athletes, with April Hutchinson, Robby Starbuck, Isabelle Ayala, and Jordan Campbell

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.780 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:14.880 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.620 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.620 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.840 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.280 That dress?

00:00:21.060 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.780 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.780 Stop wondering.

00:00:26.980 Start winning.

00:00:27.920 Winners.

00:00:28.520 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show,

00:00:32.540 live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.300 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.980 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.520 Today, a deep dive for the full show

00:00:47.880 on the issue of radical transgender ideology

00:00:50.560 in our society right now.

00:00:53.680 Prepare to be disturbed,

00:00:55.060 but pay attention because it's important.

00:00:57.760 Later, we're going to speak with the detransitioner,

00:00:59.000 a transitioner now suing those who aided in her medical transition

00:01:03.540 as a 14-year-old.

00:01:05.640 As a 14-year-old.

00:01:07.420 Plus, a filmmaker out with a must-see new documentary.

00:01:11.080 Elon Musk has been tweeting about it.

00:01:12.600 But we begin with the story of a female athlete who spoke out about biological males in her sport

00:01:20.740 and the fallout since she took that stance has been absolutely stunning.

00:01:26.160 April Hutchinson is a record-breaking powerlifter from Canada,

00:01:30.620 and she joins me now.

00:01:32.200 April, welcome to the show.

00:01:33.080 Good morning.

00:01:33.920 Thank you so much for having me, Megyn.

00:01:36.060 It's great to have you.

00:01:37.220 Okay, so talk about just, like, how'd you get into powerlifting?

00:01:40.200 Because that's, I think, unusual for, you know, most women.

00:01:43.860 They're thinking, like, soccer.

00:01:45.880 Powerlifting is, you know, strong.

00:01:47.720 How'd you get into it?

00:01:48.680 Well, I've always been into athletics growing up as a child.

00:01:51.560 I've always kind of dabbled in powerlifting.

00:01:54.040 When I was doing MMA, actually, about 10 years ago.

00:01:58.160 But I don't know if a lot of people know this,

00:02:00.220 but I actually also dealt with alcoholism my whole life, right?

00:02:04.700 I struggled with addiction.

00:02:07.100 So in 2019, I went into rehab, and when I came out,

00:02:11.200 I just started powerlifting the day after as a means to help me with my mental health

00:02:15.420 and my addictions.

00:02:17.120 And that was right before COVID.

00:02:18.360 It hit, and I basically trained in a garage for two years with no competitions.

00:02:23.540 And when I came out, I went to Worlds that year and nationals.

00:02:27.300 So, and I'm still, obviously, well, I'm not competing now.

00:02:30.020 But, yeah, I've just been competing for the last five years with Team Canada.

00:02:35.220 How did you do that?

00:02:37.500 I mean, were you just, how did you even know what to lift,

00:02:41.100 how to build your body, how to be safe about it, all that stuff?

00:02:43.500 Well, I mean, I had a coach.

00:02:47.060 I mean, I was going to a gym, and I actually found a powerlifting coach that assisted me.

00:02:53.120 But, I mean, did I really know what I was doing in the beginning?

00:02:56.080 Not really, because I was literally training in a garage by myself.

00:02:59.320 And there was no competitions during COVID, right?

00:03:02.880 So I literally would just do the movements, you know, get as strong as I could.

00:03:07.180 I really had no idea how strong I was until I came out and I started doing competitions

00:03:11.900 because I had nothing to compare myself to.

00:03:14.260 So, no, I did have a coach for a couple of years, yes.

00:03:16.800 Wow, it's amazing to watch you.

00:03:19.900 I'll tell you what, April, I'm in the market right now for a very good butt routine.

00:03:23.780 And what everybody's telling me is I got to do squats and I got to do, I got to do sprints.

00:03:28.800 They say sprints.

00:03:29.780 I don't know.

00:03:30.320 Got any advice for the strong butt muscles?

00:03:34.320 Well, yeah, I would say definitely squats.

00:03:37.040 Because, I mean, squats are great for your core, for your stomach and for your butt.

00:03:40.900 But, I mean, there's also like lunges and, you know, hip thrusts even.

00:03:45.040 There's a lot of different activities, but for sure.

00:03:47.440 Okay.

00:03:48.180 I didn't realize this is not what you're here to talk about.

00:03:50.160 While I had you, you know, I figured I might as well ask for all of us.

00:03:54.380 Okay, so an interesting thing happened while you were powerlifting and doing well.

00:03:58.800 And that is you met someone who you didn't know at the time, Andre, right?

00:04:06.460 And I'm making sure I have the name right.

00:04:08.840 I'm just looking for it.

00:04:10.080 And you did not realize, Anne, Anne is the first name.

00:04:13.720 You did not realize at the time that Anne, who was in your sport, was actually a biological

00:04:19.620 man.

00:04:21.240 Yeah, exactly.

00:04:22.700 Again, like I said, I wasn't meeting people during COVID.

00:04:25.900 I had a friend that I had met named Anne online through Facebook.

00:04:29.840 And we were chatting about powerlifting for like at least a year, you know, giving each

00:04:34.780 other little tips and stuff.

00:04:35.940 And I had no idea that Anne was a biological male, a man, until he actually admitted to

00:04:43.120 me during our last conversation and saying that, well, because we were talking about

00:04:47.240 Laura Hubbard and how Laura was going to the Olympics.

00:04:49.840 And I was like, that's completely unfair.

00:04:51.640 That shouldn't be happening.

00:04:53.340 And Anne said, well, I'm a man.

00:04:55.280 Didn't you know that?

00:04:56.000 I said, well, no, I didn't know that.

00:04:58.320 And I said, well, how far do you expect to be lifting?

00:05:00.920 Are you going to nationals?

00:05:02.060 He's like, oh, I want to go to nationals.

00:05:03.520 I want to go to worlds.

00:05:04.900 And I said, if you do that, I will speak out and I will not be quiet about that.

00:05:09.720 And he blocked and deleted me.

00:05:11.380 And that was my last conversation that I had with Anne.

00:05:14.900 Wow.

00:05:15.680 All right.

00:05:15.960 So how was Anne doing in the sport?

00:05:20.020 Well, and that's the funny thing.

00:05:21.720 Initially, Anne was not doing that well.

00:05:25.980 And but Anne was also, I mean, to me, looked very feminine.

00:05:30.240 Right.

00:05:30.640 And I had no clue, right, until he told me that he was a man.

00:05:34.660 But then it just seemed, I mean, if you look up Anne's numbers online, he spiked from between

00:05:40.600 2021 up to 2023, sorry, put literally of almost like 300 pounds on all his lifts in one year,

00:05:50.180 which is basically unheard of.

00:05:51.700 So, I mean, I don't want to speculate if he went off hormones or what have you, but just

00:05:57.320 like, I mean, he's ranked what number, like, well, he's number one in the world right now

00:06:01.280 for his master's category.

00:06:02.580 And he holds like three out of the five records in Alberta.

00:06:05.540 So, I mean, go figure.

00:06:07.960 This is Anne at the top of the, you know, he's on the leader block there and number one.

00:06:13.580 Um, okay, so yeah, we don't know whether he went back on or he went off of like the testosterone

00:06:19.680 blocking hormones, but in Canada, that it wasn't a requirement, right?

00:06:25.340 What I read is that according to the rules of the Canadian power lifting union, male to

00:06:30.140 female athletes do not have to make it public that they're trans.

00:06:33.720 They didn't, they weren't required to do any hormone therapy or surgical alteration.

00:06:39.860 All that's been required is to say you're a woman and show an ID, a government ID saying

00:06:48.500 that's it.

00:06:49.640 Is that, has that been the case?

00:06:52.600 Can you believe that?

00:06:53.700 Exactly.

00:06:54.620 Um, that was basically the, I would call it a trans inclusion policy, um, that my federation

00:07:01.160 had, so basically my boyfriend could walk in tomorrow and self-declare as a woman, take

00:07:06.800 records or compete, and then go back to being a man the next day.

00:07:09.860 That's how simple it was.

00:07:11.420 I couldn't believe it.

00:07:12.400 And that's why I wrote the federation and I said, look at like, you need to put measures

00:07:16.900 in place to protect women in fairness.

00:07:18.900 Um, and because I spoke up, they did change the policy and that's, that's only because I

00:07:24.800 pressured them though, because I had a lawyer.

00:07:26.960 I mean, I also contacted the international governing body.

00:07:30.820 And I said, look at, do you know what's going on here in my federation?

00:07:34.780 And they didn't know because no one knew that Ann was a man.

00:07:37.740 Everyone was clueless.

00:07:38.920 There was women that were competing against Ann that had no idea.

00:07:43.120 So I brought it to their attention.

00:07:44.940 And finally the governing body said, look at, you need to do testosterone monitoring, um,

00:07:50.640 at provincials and higher.

00:07:52.180 And you also, they need to declare if they're trans basically.

00:07:55.640 So can you tell me, cause I saw that I saw they changed it.

00:07:59.580 They changed it to testosterone monitoring, which jumped out at me as like, well, what

00:08:04.340 does that mean?

00:08:05.040 Did they set a minimum level above which the testosterone cannot go?

00:08:09.460 I should say a maximum level.

00:08:11.240 Yeah.

00:08:12.240 So the, and it's, you know what, and honestly, I don't know if you know a lot about bodybuilders,

00:08:16.320 but I mean, people that take men that take HRT or, or, or bodybuilders, they basically

00:08:21.200 could go on their stuff.

00:08:22.200 And then when they come off of it, they're, their test levels drop.

00:08:25.680 So any man, again, I'll use my boyfriend can walk in there with low testosterone levels

00:08:30.500 and be like, Oh, great.

00:08:31.600 I got through.

00:08:32.220 I can go to worlds now.

00:08:33.240 So, so I mean, and I, and I said that to them, I'm like, this is not a great policy,

00:08:37.920 but the thing that kind of stops transgenders from going further than provincials is the

00:08:42.920 fact that they have to submit medical records and they also have to submit their psychological

00:08:47.520 records.

00:08:48.720 And this is where, for example, and is not getting through because he refuses to submit

00:08:55.260 his, uh, basically his records.

00:08:57.220 So, I mean, you need a diagnosis because otherwise, you know, anyone, any male grifter could walk

00:09:03.080 in there.

00:09:04.720 Right, right.

00:09:05.140 And there could be prize money.

00:09:06.760 There could be endorsement deals.

00:09:09.300 I mean, there is potential dollars and cents attached to this decision.

00:09:13.600 Oh, for sure.

00:09:14.180 I mean, I mean, we see it more so in the States with, with, uh, prize money, but even like we

00:09:19.020 have sponsors, like I have two sponsors right now.

00:09:22.380 Um, you know, I've probably lost sponsors because I spoke out cause I've been so outspoken.

00:09:27.220 Um, I mean, I was kicked out of a museum here in my city because I mean, I was a display

00:09:33.080 of my sobriety and making team Canada and they kicked me out of the exhibit because I

00:09:37.200 was spoken, speaking out about fairness in women's sports.

00:09:41.100 So you found out that Anne was nonetheless going to be competing in an event, notwithstanding

00:09:47.100 you're making clear to Anne it's a no, or I'm coming forward.

00:09:51.880 And, um, what happened?

00:09:53.980 Did, did you participate?

00:09:55.160 Did you, or did you boycott the event?

00:09:58.200 Yeah.

00:09:58.760 So I, I did not participate.

00:10:00.320 I was signed up to compete against him at nationals last year.

00:10:04.680 So they thought I was going to attend.

00:10:07.240 And the morning of the competition, the judges were asking me where I was and I text them

00:10:11.940 and I said, look at, I will, I refuse to compete as long as there's a biological male.

00:10:16.620 So, um, and then about 20 protesters walked in and protested.

00:10:21.900 And of course, you know, they tried to kick them out.

00:10:23.920 Um, but after that, I basically started writing the federation, um, and I had a lawyer involved

00:10:29.420 too, because they kept on sending me ladders of discipline saying that we're going to suspend

00:10:33.600 me.

00:10:34.320 Um, and then for what was last year.

00:10:37.180 Yeah.

00:10:38.860 For what?

00:10:39.780 Suspend you for what?

00:10:42.740 Well, here we go with the censorship in Canada.

00:10:45.640 Um, and our bill C-16, basically they suspended me because I called Ann Andrus, a biological

00:10:52.420 male on the Pierce Morgan show.

00:10:54.400 So, so, okay, we have a clip, we have a clip of you talking to peers, but it's amazing to

00:10:59.840 me that they were even threatening it.

00:11:01.000 Like that this is, they're open about the fact that you're just not allowed to say these

00:11:06.020 words.

00:11:06.880 Here's here, here you are talking to peers.

00:11:10.000 I am the one being punished for speaking truth.

00:11:12.460 Yet he can mock females and say, you know, call me a bigot, uh, incite hate and nothing's

00:11:18.920 being done about that.

00:11:19.900 But I'm the one being silenced by my federation.

00:11:22.180 What is going to happen to you?

00:11:23.360 Well, most recently, uh, I, I've been threatened with suspension.

00:11:27.280 Uh, two weeks ago, I received a letter from my federation stating that you cannot call

00:11:32.940 Ann a biological male that goes against the code of ethics, you know, because in their

00:11:37.380 policy, we do ask that we use pronouns.

00:11:40.120 They don't force you to, but they ask also, um.

00:11:43.380 But, but, but she is a biological male.

00:11:46.960 Yeah, but truth doesn't matter in this debate because they're just trying to control your

00:11:50.160 language.

00:11:50.640 They want a different narrative altogether.

00:11:52.080 So you got in trouble for that.

00:11:54.460 Your sport looked at you, an actual woman and said, because you correctly called Ann a biological

00:12:00.160 male, you were suspended from your sport and you remain suspended to this day.

00:12:07.620 Yes, I, I can't compete.

00:12:09.560 Um, I did have the suspension reduced because I got a lawyer involved and we appealed it through

00:12:15.580 a, um, a third party organization.

00:12:18.580 But the thing is, um, again, uh, Ann's been actually the one harassing people.

00:12:23.960 Like, I don't know if you saw the clip from back last March, making fun of women in their

00:12:28.620 bench press and how weak we are.

00:12:30.400 We, and we have that year.

00:12:32.720 Yeah.

00:12:32.900 They just disciplined me and threatened me with discipline, but yet Ann can actually make

00:12:38.540 threats towards me.

00:12:39.780 He made threats last week towards premier Daniel Smith, like literally death threats.

00:12:44.060 Um, and they cater to this mentally ill narcissistic man's feelings and puts all the women's feelings

00:12:51.220 and our mental health aside and fairness.

00:12:54.720 Premier is like a local government official, uh, in Canada over a, and in a certain province.

00:12:59.380 Um, we have that with Ann mocking the women.

00:13:02.520 Let's watch it.

00:13:03.000 Welcome to Ann Says Something Controversial.

00:13:07.260 Um, why is women's bench so bad?

00:13:12.700 I mean, not compared to me.

00:13:14.240 We all know that I'm a training freak, so that doesn't count.

00:13:18.280 Standard bench in powerlifting competition for women.

00:13:22.120 I literally don't understand why it's so bad.

00:13:25.720 My son, he weighs 45 pounds.

00:13:29.660 His max bench is like 33.

00:13:31.320 33, I'm legit seeing some women in competition who are doing something like 50 pounds.

00:13:40.320 I mean, it's not surprising to me to see somebody like Ann, uh, espousing misogynistic tendencies.

00:13:47.460 It's the irony of a lot of these men who choose to pose as women.

00:13:52.280 Many have a deep seated hatred of women.

00:13:54.540 I don't know, Ann, but that's what I hear when I hear those comments.

00:13:58.640 Well, exactly.

00:13:59.540 And I mean, that's the way it's been the last year, right?

00:14:02.300 And so, I mean, how do you think I feel knowing that they're catering to him and putting my

00:14:07.660 needs aside?

00:14:08.480 Like, you know, I just told you my, my story of sobriety, you know, not once have I said,

00:14:13.280 oh, you know what?

00:14:13.820 I'm going to go relapse and drink if I don't get my way, but, you know, but that's, I mean,

00:14:18.460 we all have mental health issues.

00:14:19.800 So I just don't know why they're catering to this, this, to this like small minor community.

00:14:24.740 You know what I mean?

00:14:26.160 Well, and then is I've, I've been given a Facebook post.

00:14:30.120 I think it's Facebook, uh, by my team.

00:14:33.200 And my understanding is this is Ann coming after you coming after you in just vicious,

00:14:41.940 vile terms.

00:14:43.280 I'm going to read some of it, but is, has this guy been threatening you explicitly?

00:14:48.260 Yeah.

00:14:48.820 So a couple of weeks ago, those are the threats.

00:14:51.980 He, he got upset because I went on, uh, I think it was Fox news and talked about the

00:14:56.840 basketball players in the States, how they've been injured.

00:14:59.040 Right.

00:14:59.400 And he basically, and that was the same day, I guess, some teenager in Oakland, um, got

00:15:05.460 bullied and not bullied.

00:15:06.440 Well, it didn't come out that they got bullied.

00:15:07.660 And then I think, I don't, I'm not sure if they committed suicide, but basically he blamed

00:15:11.780 me for the death of the, the teenager in Oklahoma two weeks ago.

00:15:16.500 And premier Daniel Smith said that we were the cause of that, um, you know, person dying

00:15:22.660 basically.

00:15:23.100 And that went on to threaten us and said that we should, you know, die a very painful death.

00:15:28.060 And so I, I did have to call the police on Ann.

00:15:31.320 Here's, here, here's Ann for our audience.

00:15:34.120 Ann is fully allowed to participate in this powerlifting sport as a woman.

00:15:39.760 Okay.

00:15:40.400 But our guest April is not because she spoke out about it.

00:15:43.520 Here's what he posted on Instagram.

00:15:46.160 Uh, okay.

00:15:47.680 Pulling out some of the, some of the relevant pieces, the same fucking arguments against

00:15:52.720 trans inclusion has been problem with the subject verb agreement has been used historically

00:15:59.180 against black inclusion.

00:16:00.460 That fucking terrible human being from Ontario makes profits off of hate the same effing

00:16:06.380 week.

00:16:06.680 I'm done with the fucking with this guy, the same effing week, a human child is killed for

00:16:12.300 being trans.

00:16:13.240 That self-righteous bitch, sorry for gendered insults.

00:16:17.340 I'm pretty angry right now goes and talks about how a trans basketball player is hurting

00:16:21.100 women by playing.

00:16:22.160 You don't give a F about women.

00:16:24.640 You care about hate and making a quick buck off of it.

00:16:28.000 You effing sicken me and you promote this kind of thing.

00:16:31.920 There is no hell, but times like this, I wish there was.

00:16:35.420 So you and Smith can spend eternity suffering.

00:16:38.980 Anyone who supports the Ontario lifter, this is about you.

00:16:41.780 We understand.

00:16:42.760 And is, uh, just as effed up as she is spend some time actually thinking about the people

00:16:48.480 around you instead of just yourself.

00:16:49.880 May your generation die painfully and leave the youth to inherit a better world.

00:16:56.300 Wow.

00:16:57.940 So this is, this is about you.

00:16:59.640 You're the Ontario lifter.

00:17:00.660 Yes.

00:17:01.880 Yeah.

00:17:02.680 I'm the Ontario lifter.

00:17:03.980 He's, he has said many times that April Hutchinson is the Ontario lifter.

00:17:07.560 So yeah, I'm the only one that's been obviously using my voice.

00:17:10.440 Right.

00:17:10.720 So.

00:17:11.920 So you contacted the police rightfully in response to this and what happened?

00:17:15.160 Well, I called the police and I told them I had to actually contact the Calgary police.

00:17:20.560 Um, I have contacted the, the London police where I do live because of, um, a couple of

00:17:25.860 Anne's friends here in my city have, uh, basically stalked me, harassed me, gone after my job.

00:17:31.220 So I have two reports against them, but I did have to call the Calgary police on Anne because

00:17:35.780 I mean, Anne does, um, have family living near me.

00:17:39.260 He does come to Ontario to visit.

00:17:40.940 And I feel, I do feel threatened.

00:17:44.300 Um, he is an unhinged man, in my opinion.

00:17:47.440 Um, this doc, this has to be documented this type of behavior.

00:17:50.540 Right.

00:17:51.000 Um, so I mean, for sure, if anything else happens, I'll, I'll document it again.

00:17:56.040 So is there going to be any reprieve within your sport?

00:17:59.740 I mean, in the wake of his behavior, his clear threats against you, all you've done is say,

00:18:05.540 Anne's a biological male.

00:18:07.140 And by the way, whoever needs to hear it, Anne is a man.

00:18:10.940 Anne's a man.

00:18:12.360 It's biological.

00:18:13.340 He's a man.

00:18:14.440 I don't care what he does to himself.

00:18:16.680 He's a man trying to compete wrongfully and unfairly in women's sport.

00:18:21.960 Get out and get out.

00:18:24.000 I can say whatever the hell I want because I live in the beautiful United States of America.

00:18:28.080 I'm, I hate what's happening in Canada with free speech, but good luck, Canada, because

00:18:32.900 guess what?

00:18:33.520 Your people listen to me too.

00:18:34.860 He's a man.

00:18:35.560 Um, okay.

00:18:36.880 Anyway, um, is the sport doing any sort of a reversal or kicking around a reversal to

00:18:42.540 let you back in and, and, and ban him?

00:18:46.320 Well, I mean, I can start competing in November because my sentence got reduced, but honestly,

00:18:52.160 my federation has done nothing to support me.

00:18:56.020 Even last year when I wrote letters about Anne competing, um, I got ignored.

00:19:00.920 Um, again, they just sent me threatening letters.

00:19:03.300 They have not been there to support me whatsoever.

00:19:06.420 Um, you know, there are some biased board members and that's probably why I got banned.

00:19:10.220 Um, because I'm sure they have some personal agendas of themselves, but I mean, I've had

00:19:15.160 no support, but you know, who has supported me is the international governing body.

00:19:19.460 They've been basically great to work with.

00:19:22.480 Um, I've also had obviously other people like Riley Gaines and other strong women that

00:19:26.540 have been spoken out, but I know I've gotten nothing from my federation, but, um, a lot of

00:19:32.100 lifters have put complaints in about Anne about the threats.

00:19:34.800 I can't put a complaint in because I'm not a member right now, but, um, I'm hoping like,

00:19:40.040 I mean, if Anne doesn't get suspended, then like, that just goes to show you, you know,

00:19:44.440 the complete bias and, you know, maybe they're afraid to get sued.

00:19:49.000 I'm not quite sure, but no one's ever said, we don't want Anne to lift.

00:19:53.600 We just want a separate category.

00:19:55.520 We don't want Anne to be lifting with the women.

00:19:58.060 Yeah.

00:19:59.320 The, that's the thing is like, I mean, here in the United States, truth is an

00:20:04.760 absolute defense to defamation.

00:20:07.660 You, you can be sued for defamation, but if what you've said is true, the person can

00:20:12.660 never recover.

00:20:13.700 And that's why saying Anne is a man is just fine here in the United States.

00:20:18.840 I don't know what Canada of course is built on different principles.

00:20:21.420 Doesn't have our constitution, our bill of rights, all those things, but it's just so

00:20:25.300 disturbing that they, we've seen this with Jordan Peterson, of course, uh, Gadsad, our

00:20:29.780 pal who's North of the border, but so many in Canada have had their tongues tied by

00:20:34.660 the government or some governing body that just doesn't want them thinking wrong thought

00:20:39.820 or speaking wrong speech.

00:20:43.400 According to, I don't know whom, I don't know whom, uh, you know, people with an agenda,

00:20:47.680 what have you.

00:20:48.500 So what are the women say, April?

00:20:50.600 Are they thinking at all about banning, banding together?

00:20:54.960 Like if you all don't compete, it's not going to be a very meaningful competition for Anne.

00:20:59.880 Would they ever do that?

00:21:00.780 Cause my impression in general in Canada is with all due respect to our lovely neighbors

00:21:04.680 up North, they don't all have the fortitude that you do.

00:21:09.700 Well, no.

00:21:10.400 And that's, that's the thing, right?

00:21:11.540 We have this bill C-16 in which, uh, Trudeau, um, put in there to basically protect a gender

00:21:18.580 expression and gender.

00:21:19.620 So basically they added that in to, you know, sex and race has always been there, but they

00:21:23.520 now added gender.

00:21:24.280 So a lot of people are afraid, but I have to remind people, and I do remind people in

00:21:29.400 the, like my lifters in my federation too, right?

00:21:31.780 Like you do have freedom of thought.

00:21:34.140 You do like, we have freedom of thought, right?

00:21:37.000 I mean, let's just say if I was a religious person, right?

00:21:39.620 And like, which I do believe there's only two genders.

00:21:41.920 People can't take that away from me.

00:21:43.600 Okay.

00:21:44.400 Now, if I worked in a place where there was a policy and they say, okay, you have to use

00:21:49.780 pronouns.

00:21:50.320 Of course I'm going to use pronouns because that's my work policy.

00:21:53.280 But at the end of the day, I do have the right to say that I don't believe a man could

00:21:58.800 be a woman.

00:21:59.640 And that's my personal belief.

00:22:01.060 And no one can take that away from me.

00:22:03.120 Now, do I go around and, um, bully people and say, like, put it in their face and incite

00:22:08.980 hate?

00:22:09.440 No, there's a huge difference between that and like hate speech and actually just expressing

00:22:13.720 your personal belief.

00:22:14.840 So, I mean, that's all I've been doing.

00:22:16.840 I actually have no ill will towards transgenders.

00:22:19.520 I have always said that.

00:22:20.660 I literally just wanted a separate category to be created.

00:22:24.400 Yes.

00:22:25.080 And honestly, like Caitlyn Jenner is out there every day tweeting about this kind of thing

00:22:30.500 in the same way you and I are.

00:22:33.220 Caitlyn understands.

00:22:34.600 This is, of course, formerly Bruce Jenner.

00:22:36.100 Now, Caitlyn Jenner understands how unfair this is.

00:22:38.560 Caitlyn was this world-class athlete when Caitlyn was Bruce, you know, Olympic athlete,

00:22:43.200 decathlon and all.

00:22:43.820 So, it's not about trans people.

00:22:46.560 And I think most trans people probably agree with us.

00:22:51.640 It's just the few who try to take advantage of its sport.

00:22:56.960 And it's always a male to female trans person.

00:23:00.100 It's never the other way around.

00:23:02.320 Why?

00:23:02.900 Because we're the ones who can be taken advantage of.

00:23:05.180 Exactly.

00:23:07.660 And that's why I think my, you know, a lot of people that support this are women, because

00:23:12.400 women are just more tolerant.

00:23:14.120 We're more nurturing.

00:23:15.600 So, a lot of the women, like a few women in the Federation that support this, I mean,

00:23:19.340 some people just are oblivious and they have no idea what's going on.

00:23:22.420 But I have talked.

00:23:23.540 I actually have a friend who is transgender and they said, look it, if I go into a bathroom

00:23:28.800 and someone has a problem with me being there, I step out.

00:23:32.600 If I go into a sport and one woman has a problem with me competing, I step out.

00:23:38.660 That's how he said.

00:23:39.780 That's basically, he said that Anne himself is making the Federation or transgenders look

00:23:44.060 bad because they don't agree with it.

00:23:46.440 And I've talked to many, many, I mean, people, not just in the LGBT plus, but I mean, with

00:23:51.800 their take on it.

00:23:52.620 And I said that all along.

00:23:54.320 If one woman has a problem with Anne competing, then that policy needs to be changed.

00:23:59.800 That Federation needs to start protecting women and fairness.

00:24:04.560 So, there was some good news out of Canada recently, and that's rare on the issue of the

00:24:10.680 trans thing.

00:24:11.700 And I wonder whether this is, does this affect you at all?

00:24:15.040 Because this is over in Alberta, which is a different province.

00:24:17.840 And the premier there says that there is legislation coming this fall that will change some of these

00:24:24.280 gender policies.

00:24:26.240 So, it was the premier, Danielle Smith, saying her government will introduce legislation to

00:24:31.340 support the planned policy changes affecting the trans and the non-binary youth and adults.

00:24:35.840 This is via the CBC.

00:24:38.040 Defended her rationale for planning to restrict healthcare options, that's how they describe

00:24:42.220 it, for the youth, and inform parents of any name and gender identity changes the students

00:24:47.440 request at school.

00:24:48.540 Top and bottom surgeries, okay, I hate when they use those terms.

00:24:51.740 They're talking about double mastectomies for minors.

00:24:54.620 Bottom surgeries is when you get your penis chopped off or try to make a penis out of a vagina

00:25:00.460 by basically hacking off your forearm.

00:25:03.420 That's what top and bottom surgeries really means.

00:25:06.140 Parents will be banned for minors under age 17 and others, so anybody under 18.

00:25:12.160 Puberty blockers and hormone therapies for, quote, gender affirmation will not be permitted

00:25:17.420 for children under 15.

00:25:20.060 Okay, that's still too young, but it's progress.

00:25:22.940 Parental notification and consent will be required for schools before they can alter the name or

00:25:28.200 pronouns of any child under 15.

00:25:30.300 Uh, and parents will have to opt in their kids every time a teacher plans to teach about

00:25:36.240 gender identity.

00:25:38.060 Normally they make them opt the student out.

00:25:41.200 The default is they're in and the parent has to stay alert and opt them out.

00:25:44.700 Now they have to opt them into that.

00:25:47.520 And last but certainly not least, transgender women, again, that means fake women, will be

00:25:52.940 banned from competing in women's sports leagues.

00:25:56.240 States and, uh, Smith said the government will work with the leagues to set up co-ed or gender

00:26:00.580 neutral divisions for sports.

00:26:02.500 And on the, on that front, April, it's like, yes, for all these women who genuinely don't

00:26:07.180 have a problem, uh, you know, competing like this.

00:26:10.320 Great.

00:26:10.880 Then go ahead and you, you can join the open category, do it fine.

00:26:14.560 But for the women who are actual women who don't want men in their category, they should

00:26:18.860 have the women's category to themselves.

00:26:20.320 So does any of this affect you or give you hope?

00:26:23.980 Oh, most definitely.

00:26:25.000 Well, it's funny because Danielle Smith, so that's the premier that got threatened along

00:26:29.400 with me.

00:26:30.440 She actually is the premier of the province that Anne lives in.

00:26:34.580 So that's just even better.

00:26:37.240 So, um, and I've actually been talking with Danielle Smith's advisor.

00:26:41.420 I just talked to him two days on the, uh, yesterday on the phone, um, you know, just

00:26:45.660 trying to give him insight and ideas of what's been going on.

00:26:48.540 So the new legislation will be, well, I think in October, going through in October is going

00:26:54.840 through a hundred percent.

00:26:56.680 Um, I did ask them like, okay, what are you going to do?

00:26:58.940 And he said, basically, we're going to do exactly what we said.

00:27:01.540 Like they're going to create co-ed, co-ed leagues.

00:27:03.840 Or if Anne wants to compete with the men in which he should, then he can go compete with

00:27:09.100 the men.

00:27:10.020 But, um, and I was like, that's amazing.

00:27:11.860 And, um, and actually holds three out of the five records in Alberta.

00:27:17.360 So, I mean, I've been fighting to have those records stripped too.

00:27:21.180 So I've, I did write the governing body, but I do feel like those records will be stripped

00:27:25.000 once the new legislation comes in as well.

00:27:27.020 Is Danielle Smith a conservative?

00:27:31.080 Yes.

00:27:32.680 Wow.

00:27:33.320 I didn't think conservatives could get elected in Canada.

00:27:35.720 I'm surprised.

00:27:36.760 Is Alberta just like a more conservative leaning province?

00:27:39.460 How, how does this happen?

00:27:40.640 Explain it to me.

00:27:42.060 Well, wait for it because our next leader for Canada, Trudeau is going to be out and

00:27:46.140 Pierre, who is conservative, will be in power.

00:27:49.160 And that's, we love him.

00:27:50.880 Oh, I think everyone loves him.

00:27:53.080 He's just amazing.

00:27:53.960 Right.

00:27:54.280 And so, I mean, I think it's October next year.

00:27:57.860 So we do have to go through another year of hell with Trudeau.

00:28:01.100 Um, but I'm telling you, I know Pierre, um, he's kind of been, he's questioned about the

00:28:06.640 new policies that Danielle Smith, and he doesn't really touch the gender affirming part of it,

00:28:11.340 but he has said, look it, um, biological men should not be in women's spaces or sports.

00:28:16.980 So he was adamant about that.

00:28:18.600 So I do know, um, there will be some changes coming probably next year for sure.

00:28:22.340 How, if you don't mind my asking, are you doing with your recovery, uh, and your sobriety,

00:28:29.660 because it's a relatively new thing for you.

00:28:32.620 And this is stressful, stressful to get death threats, to be in the news, to be banned from

00:28:37.660 your sport of choice.

00:28:40.300 Well, yeah, I'm glad you asked.

00:28:42.120 Um, I actually have five years coming up in September for my sobriety.

00:28:46.240 And, you know, I, I said to my boyfriend, um, if there was ever a time where I felt drinking,

00:28:51.980 like, like having a drink, it was this last year.

00:28:54.800 Um, I've never had a craving before until this year, just because of the stress, because I was

00:28:59.860 just so upset.

00:29:01.760 I mean, part of my AA program is, um, honesty and integrity.

00:29:06.980 So when you go to a meeting, one of the main topics is to be true to yourself.

00:29:12.880 And there's a quote, I think it's by Hamlet.

00:29:14.720 It says to thine own self be true.

00:29:17.280 And I always remember that.

00:29:18.780 And I carry my coin around because when I had to go through this last year and I was almost

00:29:23.080 forced to lie.

00:29:24.960 And that's the part that made me speak out was because like, I couldn't lie to myself

00:29:28.540 every day and say, Oh, okay.

00:29:30.160 And as a woman, how do you think that was affecting my sobriety and my mental health?

00:29:33.860 Because there was times I couldn't sleep at night and I thought, well, no, I just have

00:29:37.360 to keep doing this.

00:29:38.180 I have to keep speaking out because I just can't let this go.

00:29:41.040 I mean, the future, I don't care if I ever power lift again, but I have two nieces to

00:29:45.340 look after and the future of sports.

00:29:46.980 And that's what I care about is the future generations.

00:29:49.860 So, I mean, my sobriety was teeter tottering, I guess you could say, but I'm feeling much better

00:29:55.500 now.

00:29:56.120 So.

00:29:57.300 Oh, good, good.

00:29:58.460 Keep speaking out.

00:29:59.540 You know, there's such power in what you're doing and it really is courageous, especially up

00:30:03.780 in Canada.

00:30:04.600 And clearly you're making a difference.

00:30:07.080 I mean, that's very obvious.

00:30:08.160 They need thousands more just like you up there, April.

00:30:11.800 All the best.

00:30:12.420 Please let us know if we can help along the way.

00:30:15.240 For sure.

00:30:15.720 Yeah.

00:30:15.960 And, you know, I don't feel so alone anymore.

00:30:17.940 There are hundreds.

00:30:18.760 I mean, I feel like I have an army behind me.

00:30:21.080 I actually selling my shirts.

00:30:22.620 I mean, I see these actually people walking around with these shirts and people give me high

00:30:26.400 fives when I wear it.

00:30:27.520 So, I mean, the message is getting out there.

00:30:30.100 People are waking up and I'm hoping someday we can get Canada back to where it was.

00:30:35.560 Yes.

00:30:36.160 Yeah.

00:30:36.420 All I keep thinking of when I'm listening to you is if God be for you, who could be against

00:30:41.360 you?

00:30:41.620 And God is for you.

00:30:43.060 I mean, you're on the side of the angels on this one.

00:30:45.900 All the best to you.

00:30:46.820 Thank you.

00:30:47.460 Thank you so much.

00:30:48.560 Wow.

00:30:51.080 It's just that isn't your sense of injustice completely peaked that they would kick her

00:30:57.300 out and the man gets to continue competing and threatening her.

00:31:03.340 Come on.

00:31:04.160 Even for Canada, it's too much.

00:31:07.000 Go, Pierre.

00:31:08.740 What Canadian Debbie or Canadian Kelly, my two Canadian producers.

00:31:12.640 Well, how do you pronounce his last name again?

00:31:14.940 Polly Ave, Pierre Polly Ave.

00:31:16.540 You guys remember him.

00:31:17.100 He's the one eating the apple in that amazing clip.

00:31:19.560 He's he's the answer.

00:31:20.740 Canada, Pierre Polly Ave.

00:31:23.100 Go, Pierre.

00:31:23.860 Go and start speaking out explicitly when when you know you can when your election safe.

00:31:29.140 OK, when we come back, a detransitioner speaking out.

00:31:33.000 And also, do you guys remember hearing about this law firm that was formed down in Texas

00:31:39.300 just to take on these detransitioner cases against the evil medical society?

00:31:47.100 That is transitioning them as minors without nary a consultation that is meaningful.

00:31:53.620 Well, we've got one of the lawyers and we're going to be talking to him about what they're

00:31:58.280 doing and how they can help if you or someone, you know, needs some assistance in this battle.

00:32:03.220 Across the country, doctors are prescribing a radical form of so-called treatment to children

00:32:14.320 who say they are suffering from gender dysphoria.

00:32:17.780 It includes harmless puberty blockers, which, as you know, are nothing of the kind,

00:32:23.380 right into cross-sex hormones, which cause massive damage in that order,

00:32:27.060 and ultimately surgeries, which happens all too soon in these cases.

00:32:31.660 The consequences are, as Abigail Schreier said in her iconic book, irreversible.

00:32:38.020 Her book was called Irreversible Damage.

00:32:40.620 My next guest is someone now trying to hold those responsible and hold them to account.

00:32:46.440 Isabel Ayala spent years taking testosterone at the advice of her doctors

00:32:51.620 before de-transitioning four years ago. Now she's suing the doctors and the health care

00:32:58.960 provider that pushed this on her. That's how she feels about it. She is also suing the American

00:33:04.640 Academy of Pediatrics, which is responsible for this so-called medical guidance. Isabel Ayala joins

00:33:12.500 us now along with her attorney, Jordan Campbell, who is now at the forefront of fighting for people

00:33:18.620 like Isabel. Isabel Jordan, welcome to you both. Hello. Thanks for having us on, Megan.

00:33:23.520 I'm thrilled to have you on. I told the audience, Jordan, we learned about your firm from Billboard

00:33:27.480 Chris when he came on a month or so ago. And I was so excited that you're doing this. It's about time

00:33:33.440 that there's a law firm dedicated to doing this. Because honestly, I think you guys know in this

00:33:39.760 country, we may have wokeism, we may have overreaching medical authorities, but you know what

00:33:45.540 else we have? Lawyers. And while they may be the reason you don't have the most fun things at the

00:33:51.840 playground like we did in the seventies, they're also the thing that's going to lead to the shutdown

00:33:57.140 of this serial abuse of children. So, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Isabel, thank you so much

00:34:04.180 for telling your story. I know this is a tough one for you, but I applaud you for the courage it's taken

00:34:09.760 to come on the show, speak out about it and fight back, fight back in court against these giants.

00:34:17.220 It's, it's very brave and it's going to make a difference. So if you don't mind, I'd love to go

00:34:21.580 back through just a bit of your history and find out how you felt, found yourself swept into this

00:34:28.120 madness. You had it. How, how old are you now? I'm 21 years old. Okay. So you had a, you had a tough

00:34:35.880 childhood in some ways. Can you walk us through some of that before this fake light bulb went on

00:34:42.220 of, gee, I I'm in the wrong body and I think I need to be a boy. So, uh, I am diagnosed with autism.

00:34:51.760 So that was always kind of something that was a struggle in my life. And I also endured a sexual

00:34:58.700 assault in my childhood that definitely warped how I saw the world and gave me intense trauma.

00:35:10.000 So when I was in my pre-teens, I sought out answers. I was on social media for the first time.

00:35:20.100 I was making friends and I discovered what being transgender is.

00:35:24.480 And did it resonate with you immediately? Was it as like a solution to the suffering you were going

00:35:31.760 through? It wasn't immediate. It was more when I saw how happy these people seemed, um, a term,

00:35:43.760 a lot of them use very frequently is gender euphoria. And, and when I saw that these people

00:35:52.960 talking about like, they were so down on their luck, they were so suicidal, they were looking

00:35:57.480 for answers. It seemed like this thing was the answer. What, cause we're always reeling about

00:36:04.340 social media on this show, but was there one site in particular that sucked you in and then kept

00:36:10.260 repopulating this kind of messaging to you? I would say Tumblr most likely. Um, I was definitely on,

00:36:19.040 uh, apps like Instagram and stuff like that, but I feel like Tumblr is really what radicalizes a lot

00:36:25.500 of young girls in terms of gender ideology. And was it the kind of thing where, you know,

00:36:31.920 you find yourself for hours a day on there reading people's stories, that kind of thing?

00:36:37.180 Yeah. It kind of becomes an escape. It kind of becomes an interest of in itself of trans activism.

00:36:42.600 Mm-hmm. It makes sense because this is what happens to all of us. You, what you surround

00:36:48.480 yourself with, what you choose to consume, uh, it generally rubs off on you in one way, shape,

00:36:53.900 or form. Um, you know, it's, your story is not unique in that particular way. So you got pulled

00:37:00.040 into something that shouldn't have been available to you, but our social media heads, they don't care.

00:37:05.060 And now your parents, unfortunately have gotten pulled into this too.

00:37:08.400 So you went to them at what age to first express, you know, the idea that you thought you might be

00:37:15.140 transgender? Oh, I was about 13, 12, 13. And how did they react? Um, at first they were very

00:37:27.240 concerned because this wasn't something that they could have possibly thought that I would be dealing

00:37:32.960 with. Um, because I was a very girly girl growing up. You know, I was a typical girl. I liked pink. I

00:37:39.600 liked princesses and dresses and stuff like that. So it really did come as a shock to them that I

00:37:45.960 presented this piece of information.

00:37:50.160 You know, that, um, being sexually abused and being on the spectrum are two risk factors

00:37:56.960 for getting drawn into this. Right. You know that now. Yeah. I, I, yeah. And I see it everywhere now.

00:38:06.000 So did your parents, I understand there was a bit of a split between mom and dad on whether they should

00:38:10.960 be supportive of this or not.

00:38:13.260 Yes. So my mom was very adamant on waiting on the hormones, but, um, when I was admitted into a

00:38:25.380 psychiatric ward, that's kind of when they like cornered my parents a bit more about

00:38:30.380 that making me go on hormones or that I would commit suicide.

00:38:36.720 Hmm. This happens so often without a full fleshing out of what is making Isabel feel

00:38:42.680 suicidal? Is it just gender or might it be some of these other fundamental issues? We're going to

00:38:48.120 get to that, of course, with Jordan in a minute. Um, so Isabel, you, the basis of the lawsuit comes

00:38:54.100 when the medical community gets involved in your case and you went and met, you had an appointment

00:38:59.940 with Dr. Jason Rafferty. So who's Dr. Jason Rafferty? How'd your, how'd your family find him?

00:39:05.620 So we were actually recommended him. He actually was at the meeting or at least we met with him in

00:39:15.000 the hospital that I was admitted at. Um, so just to back up, just to back up so the audience can find

00:39:21.260 it, you were spiraling emotionally and saying that you were suicidal. Yes. And I read that at that time,

00:39:29.620 at that time, that wasn't true. It was kind of like what I read online. Like you're going to need

00:39:36.980 to see, you're going to need to push and make people show the gravity of the situation. If you

00:39:42.040 want to get what you want in terms of hormones and that can mean lying. And that is a thing that I

00:39:49.100 definitely see encouraged even nowadays, um, in the trans community. Oh my gosh, this is still 12 or 13

00:39:57.500 years old. You're seeing encouragement that you pretend you're suicidal so that your parents will

00:40:02.580 break down and get you the hormones. This is so dark. Okay. So you did, I mean, you're just a kid.

00:40:09.060 My God, you're just a babe and you go into the hospital and that's where you met Dr. Rafferty for

00:40:14.760 the first time. Yeah. And, uh, Dr. Force here and everybody else that was in the meetings with my

00:40:21.160 parents. What state is this happening in Rhode Island? Okay. So then you have an appointment

00:40:28.900 as I understand it with Rafferty that lasted how long? About like 45 minutes.

00:40:36.480 And what happened at that appointment? Um, I met with a few different people,

00:40:42.080 his nurse practitioner and then him. And he basically sat me down and kind of asked me questions

00:40:48.140 about my history. And I was a young kid at the time, nowhere near ready to address the

00:40:54.100 deep trauma that I've been through. So I kind of just told him, yeah, I don't like my body.

00:41:02.380 I I'm uncomfortable with my breasts and my female sex organs. And that was enough for him

00:41:07.720 to diagnose me with gender dysphoria. And you knew what to say from the forums.

00:41:13.040 Essentially. Yeah. Like I would imagine you knew the buzzwords, you know, to get his attention.

00:41:21.360 And this guy, uh, Jordan was not just your average, you know, random psychologist. He was

00:41:28.840 chairman of the American Academy of Pediatrics. And in particular, they're, um, chairman of the

00:41:34.760 LGBTQ plus health and wellness committee. Right. So this is, I mean, to me, that says this is a

00:41:41.380 person with an agenda. That's right, Megan. And I, one thing to be clear on is at the time he was a

00:41:48.500 resident. Um, he was not a fully, uh, he wasn't a full blown pediatrician. So as a resident, he

00:41:56.460 correct. As a resident, he is the one who is, um, prescribing Isabel with life altering cross-sex

00:42:03.460 hormones while simultaneously working on being the lead author of the AAP's 2018 policy statement on

00:42:10.800 uh, this type of medicalization, which we can get into, uh, maybe after we hear the rest of Isabel's

00:42:17.580 story. My God. So Isabel, when you find this out and in retrospect now, do you feel like you were

00:42:24.480 this guy's Guinea pig? Definitely. Like you're telling me you didn't even know half of what you

00:42:33.000 were doing. Like you were actively writing out, Oh, this might be, this might be what's right

00:42:40.180 actively. Well, I am spiraling in real time as I am on testosterone. Um, I ended up actually getting

00:42:47.940 hospitalized for a suicide attempt later that year. So he prescribes you. I mean, at that point,

00:42:56.900 did you need puberty blockers or just cross-sex hormones? No. So I, yeah, at that point I was

00:43:02.680 past the stage for puberty blockers. Um, I was told, so it was cross-sex hormones for the option,

00:43:08.620 which means testosterone. So he, you go home. I gather it was on that visit or the second visit.

00:43:16.480 He prescribes testosterone and this is like serious. It's a needle, right? That you have to inject.

00:43:22.200 No. Yeah. And you're doing it yourself. Like, um, and it's pretty intense. Like you have a full

00:43:28.320 syringe, a full, like 20 gauge needle that you're stabbing into your leg. Yeah. Every week,

00:43:35.420 some people it's even more frequent than that. And I, I feel like poor you and your poor parents

00:43:43.440 who must've been just distraught, not, not knowing right. What to do, what was in your best interest,

00:43:50.960 because you've got this doctor saying, this is what we have to do. And so what were mom and dad

00:43:57.620 saying about it all? They were supporting me the best they could. They were under the impression that,

00:44:03.120 you know, these professionals that are well-esteemed and have gone to school and

00:44:10.200 are supposed to be the experts on this are telling me we need to do this for our kid or our kid's going

00:44:16.480 to die. So they were trying to be as supportive as they could at the time to me.

00:44:23.140 Did you, did you social transition, socially transition at the time?

00:44:27.320 I did. Yeah. I was already socially transitioned.

00:44:30.920 Yeah. And that's another thing that's hard to undo once, once a child has declared, oh, I'm,

00:44:35.160 I'm this other gender and you get all the snaps for it and that's currency. And you don't even

00:44:40.560 realize that when you're 12, you know, you're, you're not seeing it clearly. So my, I've been told

00:44:46.960 that Dr. Rafferty warned your mom that testosterone was your only option and, and that if you didn't

00:44:52.840 get it, you were going to commit suicide. Like the terrifying words that no parent wants to hear.

00:45:01.540 Yes.

00:45:03.700 Okay. So how long into the testosterone did things start to spiral downward, further downward for you?

00:45:10.180 Yeah. So I was on the testosterone probably for like six, seven, eight months around there. I was on it

00:45:20.520 already for an extended period of time and I was already really suicidal. I was not doing well.

00:45:28.860 Um, and ended up getting hospitalized again, um, due to an actual suicide attempt.

00:45:34.240 And as this is going on, I'm still continuing treatment. I'm still continuing testosterone.

00:45:41.780 I'm still being seen by Dr. Rafferty and it's still being given to me.

00:45:47.480 Hmm. What was happening to you physically during that time as a result of the injections?

00:45:53.760 So I was growing mass amounts of body hair. I was sweating 10 times more than I usually did.

00:46:01.860 I was gaining a lot of weight. I was really angry. It was just a lot. My, my menstrual cycle stopped.

00:46:14.340 It was pretty jarring.

00:46:17.060 Right. I can see how this would not be a pick me up to a young girl struggling with prior abuse

00:46:24.720 and the other issues that you were, you were trying to deal with. So Jordan, who are the other

00:46:31.060 doctor, you've now sued Dr. Rafferty and we'll get to the rest of Isabelle's story too on the

00:46:35.360 detransitioning, but who are the other doctors and medical professionals who have been, who you're

00:46:39.620 suing? Sure, Megan. Um, we're suing Dr. Rafferty, obviously Dr. Michelle Forcier, uh, who was the

00:46:48.820 supervising physician and is a, uh, very prominent player sort of in this pediatric gender affirming

00:46:56.540 care space for those who are, uh, unfamiliar, uh, as long with, excuse me, as well as some of the,

00:47:02.360 um, nurse practitioners and other, any, anybody basically involved in the purported treatment of

00:47:07.440 Isabelle. And then of course, uh, we were also able to sue the American Academy of Pediatrics,

00:47:12.840 um, and happy to sort of unpack that, but those would be the defendants in Isabelle's case.

00:47:17.700 I'm happy to unpack that too, because the American Academy of Pediatrics has been on the wrong side

00:47:22.560 of just so many child welfare issues over the past few years. It's, it's no longer in my view,

00:47:27.760 a credible organization at all. This should not be something that parents are listening to when

00:47:32.180 your doctor says, Oh, well the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends it for me. I thought I'm

00:47:36.420 running out the door when I hear that we're going to squeeze in a quick break and we're going to pick

00:47:40.260 up with Isabelle and Jordan right after this. Don't go away. So Isabelle, let me go back to you and,

00:47:48.200 and figure out, you talked about how seven months into it, things were spiraling downward. You

00:47:53.460 actually did attempt to take your own life. You go back into the hospital. And what happens at that

00:47:58.920 point? Was that the, was that the before and after moment? No, at that point, um, things I was so

00:48:06.040 consumed in the ideology that things really came to a standstill and I was still taking testosterone.

00:48:12.480 I would continue to for two years after that. My goodness. And Rafferty is your doctor the whole

00:48:18.900 time? Not the whole time. Eventually we do move to Florida and I continue care under a different

00:48:24.640 doctor over here. Okay. So we're, by my calculation, then you were around 15 when you stopped?

00:48:32.180 I was about 17. I started at 14. Okay. And what, what led you to realize this is,

00:48:40.120 this is not for you that you should stop the testosterone and you didn't want to be doing this

00:48:44.260 anymore. I didn't even know the transitioning was an option until I saw a woman do it and talk

00:48:53.020 about the reasons why she did it. And that really made me think critically, well, why did I do this

00:48:57.260 in the first place? So what, where do you go for help with that? Cause you can go to any medical

00:49:06.160 professional. Now, if you want to get affirmed quote unquote, and put on cross sex hormones,

00:49:11.380 but where do you go when you say this was a mistake?

00:49:17.060 You can't really go much anywhere, especially telling the truth. I've heard of some women that

00:49:22.480 have had to live saying they were using testosterone for weightlifting purposes, um, to receive care,

00:49:29.300 uh, because doctors don't want to touch those cases in fear of being seen as transphobic.

00:49:36.800 Wait, you're saying women like you who are taking testosterone because you think you're

00:49:42.780 transgender who then want to stop. Some of them lie that they're detransitioning to avoid

00:49:50.360 resistance from doctors who don't want to help with a detransition.

00:49:55.120 Yeah. Some have had to like experimented with lying to see how doctors would react and some

00:50:02.220 have had pushback. Oh my gosh, this is even worse than I knew. So you, you saw some detransitioners

00:50:12.100 speaking out and there have been more and more of them and God bless you for doing it now.

00:50:16.120 And like, what did you do? Did you just kind of stop it one day? Is that even safe?

00:50:20.760 It's not safe. And I don't recommend stopping in cold Turkey like I did, but I was just so fed up

00:50:27.480 that I didn't even want to see my doctor at that point. I just, I didn't want to talk to her.

00:50:32.900 And so how did you get from that point to you have Jordan in your life and you're going after

00:50:38.100 these people? Because that's a pretty brave, bold move.

00:50:43.100 Um, I kind of stayed stagnant with it as I still had the majority of my friends being from the trans

00:50:50.020 community. So I didn't really speak out about anything, but more and more, I see people online

00:50:56.680 talking about it and my health issues have gotten worse since then. And that really made me stop and

00:51:04.240 think, can like, is this really, this is really happening. This is happening to many young girls.

00:51:11.600 I'm not the only one that this has happened to. And I really don't want this to happen to other

00:51:19.940 young women who are struggling with anything, whether it's regarding their self-image or an eating

00:51:26.380 disorder, or even just navigating the world as being an autistic person.

00:51:32.440 What were some of the additional physical consequences you you're referencing?

00:51:39.980 So when I was seeing my second doctor, she diagnosed me with hypothyroidism and that eventually

00:51:48.620 devolved into Hashimoto's disease, which is autoimmune disease of the thyroid. And it has been

00:51:57.540 really debilitating on my physical health. Um, and I was a really healthy kid beforehand. All I really

00:52:05.380 had were like allergies. I didn't have any major health consequences. There weren't many major, um,

00:52:14.340 like genetic health problems that my family had. So it didn't seem like something that I would

00:52:21.360 just develop out of nowhere. And what about, you mentioned some of the consequences to the

00:52:29.360 testosterone early on, you know, after years on it, what, what happened to you?

00:52:38.900 I'm just completely different from how I was and I'll never be the way I was before I started

00:52:45.440 testosterone. My bone structure is compromised due to the fact that I was a growing and developing

00:52:51.080 teenager and actively taking testosterone. I'm dealing with things such as vaginal atrophy,

00:52:58.740 irregular periods. I don't even know if I'm fertile or if I'm ever going to be able to have children.

00:53:06.960 Um, and there's also just a lot of the emotional things as well that go along with it.

00:53:14.360 Mm-hmm. I'm so sorry. This was done to you. I am so sorry. This was done to you.

00:53:22.160 Jordan, that's where you come in. Um, she's not alone. There are far too many kids who are being

00:53:30.220 pushed into this machine. And let me just start with what, why does the machine exist money?

00:53:37.920 Hmm. That's a great question, Megan. And I'm sure that's a complicated answer. Uh, you can

00:53:46.420 definitely, you can definitely hear folks talk about sort of gender ideology as a cult and whether

00:53:53.760 that's accurate or not, I won't necessarily say, but with any cult, I would say you have, uh, both true

00:53:59.480 believers and you have opportunists. And I think that you have a mix of that, uh, amongst the medical

00:54:05.540 profession, folks that genuinely believe that what they are doing is insane as it may sound to someone

00:54:10.320 like you or me is actually beneficial in helping these desperate children and, and vulnerable young

00:54:17.080 adults. Um, and then you have opportunists that see a giant money-making machine and make no mistake,

00:54:22.620 it is a multi-billion dollar industry, uh, in the United States alone.

00:54:27.840 For whom in particular?

00:54:30.520 Uh, for surgeons, for endocrinologists, for primary care physicians,

00:54:34.540 for organizations like Planned Parenthood, um, uh, uh, you can look at research. There was a, um,

00:54:43.200 study done that showed that just, just gender reassignment. And I love how you use square

00:54:47.860 square quotes, by the way, Megan, uh, gender reassignment surgery is whatever that euphemism

00:54:53.820 means. Um, in 2022 was a $2.2 billion industry. And that's just the surgery. And that's up for 1.9

00:55:01.740 billion in 2021. And it's predicted to be a $5 billion industry by 2030 alone. And that's just

00:55:08.340 the surgical side of things. If it is left to continue growing at the pace that it is,

00:55:12.960 that's not even speaking to the cross-sex hormones or the puberty blockers, of course,

00:55:17.100 which big pharma is profiting off of to the tune of hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars

00:55:21.840 a year as well. Mm-hmm. Um, Isabel, I, I understand, thankfully you didn't go the surgical

00:55:28.020 route at all. No, thank goodness. My insurance did not cover it. Thank God. Right. Thank God,

00:55:34.840 because they are starting to more and more, Jordan, are they not? The more and more of this,

00:55:37.860 these kinds of procedures are covered by insurance. Well, it's a great question. Uh, the timing that

00:55:43.440 you just asked that, Megan, because yes, they have been in the past few years, increasingly

00:55:48.880 covering, uh, we do know that going back into maybe middle of last year, we've started to hear

00:55:56.400 and hear firsthand, um, uh, anecdotes of either insurance companies stopping covering these types

00:56:04.800 of procedures or hospitals, uh, quitting offering these types of procedures. In fact, I just yesterday

00:56:10.560 heard from a client that the surgery center that performed her surgery some years ago in July of

00:56:17.260 last year announced that it would no longer be allowing gender reassigning surgeries. Coincidentally,

00:56:23.020 July of last year is when we filed our first two lawsuits. And we've other, we've heard other

00:56:27.400 anecdotes that as the litigation is now starting to proliferate hospitals, and I would predict very

00:56:34.180 shortly insurers are going to start taking a second look at what's actually happening and Lord willing,

00:56:39.140 stop offering these, these procedures or offering coverage for these procedures.

00:56:44.400 You're a hero. You are a hero. This is exactly what's needed. That the medical profession is

00:56:52.080 terrified of lawyers and for good reason. I mean, I know that they, we wind up leading to a bunch of extra

00:57:00.420 red tape on a bunch of procedures that maybe don't need it, but there really is a useful and important

00:57:06.920 avenue for lawyers in America. And it is raining in these type of out of control, so-called professionals

00:57:15.180 who want to line their own pockets, who really are more concerned about what they can buy

00:57:20.700 than they are about who they can help. And you, you will scare them because all it's going to take

00:57:27.100 is a few big lawsuits and just a couple of big judgments. That's it.

00:57:34.540 You know, I hope you're right. And I would say a couple of things. One, I appreciate the praise.

00:57:41.360 I would deflect and say our clients are the true heroes. They're the ones who are really sticking

00:57:47.660 their neck out there, telling extremely emotional, traumatizing stories and making, taking a big step

00:57:55.100 into the public. And they're putting their, I mean, everything at risk, their friends, their

00:58:00.720 friendship groups, their reputations, their emotional wellbeing. It's not easy to sit here like Isabel has

00:58:07.880 done and tell her story of trauma and abuse, both at the hands of her sexual abuser when she was young

00:58:16.740 and at the hands of the medical professionals who did this to her. And I love how you said,

00:58:21.200 Megan, I'm so sorry this was done to you because all too often you hear people say, I, you know,

00:58:26.900 I can't believe I did this, or I can't believe that they chose that. And that's not the case.

00:58:31.600 This are, these are victims of predators. So I just want to say that our clients are, are the true

00:58:37.040 heroes who have the courage to go out there, uh, risk their, their friend groups, risk their emotional

00:58:43.820 wellbeing. Um, and not just to pursue justice on their behalf, but you heard Isabel say this and

00:58:49.580 every single one of our clients will say the exact same thing. They are not out here to make,

00:58:55.040 you know, a big damages recovery. In fact, none of them have even brought up damages or monetary

00:59:00.660 reward. When we talk with them universally, what they all say is I am doing this because I do not want

00:59:08.440 what happened to me to happen to another vulnerable young woman or girl in my situation. And if my

00:59:14.860 story can stop that, then I'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. And so that's why, uh, our

00:59:21.660 clients are truly just amazing. Now to your point of, uh, it may just take a few big victories before

00:59:28.200 this, you know, whole house of cards starts to come tumbling down. I hope you're right. And I know

00:59:33.900 we have seen that before with other previous medical scandals. Ones that jumped to mind would be the

00:59:38.880 multiple personality, uh, scandals, uh, in the nineties, as well as the repressed memory scandal, also

00:59:45.280 of the nineties, early two thousands. And what happened there as you may very well be familiar, but a

00:59:50.300 couple big wins and those scandals were litigated into oblivion. And so you're right. Well, we lawyers are

00:59:56.600 often responsible for a lot of the, the, uh, kill joy amongst our country. Every now and then we can

01:00:03.520 actually do some good. And that's what we're hoping to do, Megan. That's right. Absolutely right.

01:00:07.760 So on the subject that you just raised, there was, I'm sure you saw, um, Michael Schellenberger,

01:00:13.580 great journalist has done this in-depth investigation on WPATH. And I want to make sure I

01:00:20.540 say what WPATH stands for correctly. It's the world professional association for transgender health.

01:00:26.980 And in these tapes that he was leaked amongst medical professionals talking about these procedures,

01:00:33.300 and hormones and all, all of it on a zoom call, it appears to have been leaked to Schellenberger.

01:00:39.340 They're admitting what you just said, not your doctors in this case, but doctors who are doing

01:00:45.080 these procedures and who are part of WPATH that of course, how on earth could Isabel give informed

01:00:51.720 consent at 12, 13, 14 to sterilizing herself, to vaginal atrophy, you know, to all of the things

01:01:01.360 that she just listed and they know it too. Here's a little bit, her Schellenberger of, um, WPATH internal

01:01:08.360 video in which that discussion takes place. It's taught six. Um, I think the thing you have to

01:01:14.060 remember about kids is that we're often explaining these sorts of things to people who haven't even

01:01:17.580 had biology in high school yet. And, and, um, uh, and I know I've, I've heard others in this kind of a,

01:01:24.780 in this kind of a setting say, well, we think adults are like really slick biologically. In fact,

01:01:29.160 lots of people have very little medical understanding of stuff like that. We just

01:01:34.120 put medical professionals and mental health professionals take for granted, but I don't

01:01:38.120 know still what to do for the 14 year olds. Um, the parents have it on their minds, but the 14 year

01:01:43.100 old, you just, it's like talking with diabetic complications with a 14 year old. They don't care.

01:01:49.820 Of course. I mean, we don't have to be doctors to know that Jordan, but they do it anyway. Like,

01:01:55.140 but that didn't lead to, and we should never do this to another child again.

01:02:01.600 No, in the WPATH files, um, we've had the opportunity to, to review them. And I think

01:02:07.640 there's a couple of major things that come out of them. One is it absolutely, uh, tears away at the

01:02:15.100 talking points and beside the WPATH has continued to roll out for years now that their recommendations,

01:02:22.560 their quote, standards of care that they publish are, are evidence-based number one, that's not

01:02:29.140 true. And the files show a good bit of that. But of course, anybody who has been, uh, sort of paying

01:02:34.780 attention or studying the science or following the work of groups like SEGM, the Society for

01:02:39.380 Evidence-Based Gender Medicine, uh, they already knew that, but I'm glad that Schellenberger's report

01:02:45.280 has sort of exposed that hopefully to the general public at large. One of the other things that the

01:02:50.840 WPATH files has done is, is to show that not only is it not evidence-based, it's not safe and

01:02:56.500 effective. And they know that, and yet they continue to publicly push this, um, despite what

01:03:03.400 they say in private. The third thing that you will see from the WPATH files is that no matter what,

01:03:09.420 no matter the complications, and you'll see this on the, the internal forum chats that, that, uh,

01:03:14.840 uh, Schellenberger and his team have published, is it doesn't matter what the complications are,

01:03:21.720 the only solution is to continue, quote-unquote, affirmation in hormone therapy and surgery. Um,

01:03:29.080 you'll see phrases like males on estrogen who report that their, um, erections feel like shattered

01:03:36.220 glass. And I'm sorry to speak so bluntly, but it needs to be done. And, and there is no hesitancy to

01:03:43.380 continue treatment. And it's all throughout the files and it is happening all throughout the country.

01:03:48.780 And hopefully what, uh, Mr. Schellenberger and his team will have done with this is exposed what

01:03:54.700 folks like you and, and, you know, my team and my firm who are living this every day,

01:03:59.700 see on a regular basis that they, these practitioners kind of run through every red,

01:04:05.760 red stop sign, every red light. And it is all affirmation, regardless of the consequences,

01:04:11.720 regardless of the comorbidities of the patient, when they come in, regardless of the patient's

01:04:16.320 ability to comprehend or give informed consent. And I hope that the WPATH files achieve, uh,

01:04:22.440 sort of the lifting of the veil and the awakening to the public of what's actually happening.

01:04:27.840 Who are these people in WPATH? I mean, it's got the fancy name,

01:04:30.420 World Professional Association for Transgender Health. Who are they?

01:04:33.480 That's a great question. And the answer is it's a group of medical professionals and activists. The,

01:04:42.640 the interesting thing about WPATH is they often hold themselves out as a medical organization. In

01:04:49.440 reality, it's an activist organization, maybe a trade association at best, but it's open membership.

01:04:56.100 And so it's not just doctors that are, that are members of WPATH. Um, but it is by and large activists and

01:05:05.560 activist doctors, um, who sort of have by hook or crook sort of created this in premature, um, based on what

01:05:16.520 pretense, I don't know, but they have been, they have been treated by society at large and in all too many

01:05:22.740 actual medical organizations here in the States as authoritative.

01:05:27.860 Here's more from the WPATH files, Michael Schellenberger of them admitting these so-called

01:05:33.560 professionals about how these kids, they don't, they don't have the capacity to get it. I mean,

01:05:39.680 we don't let them have cigarettes until they're 16. They can't vote until 18. They can't drink until 21.

01:05:46.360 And yet we're expecting them to understand the complexities of puberty blockers into cross-sex

01:05:52.020 hormones and double mastectomies and vaginoplasties and all of it. SOT7.

01:05:57.480 So one of the things I do is I just kind of, I'm sitting with the youth and their parents and I say,

01:06:01.960 oh, well, so tell me more about what you know about that medical intervention. And kind of like what

01:06:07.740 Dan was saying, you know, children and young adolescents, we wouldn't really expect them.

01:06:13.720 It's kind of a developmental, it's out of their developmental range sometimes to understand the

01:06:19.320 extent to which some of these medical interventions are impacting them.

01:06:24.120 We do it. We try to talk about it, but most of the kids are nowhere in any kind of a brain space to

01:06:29.020 really, really, really talk about it in a serious way. That's always bothered me, but, you know,

01:06:35.700 we still want the kids to be happy, happier in the moment, right?

01:06:39.800 Oh my God. Happier in the moment. In the moment. I mean, what do you, when you hear that, Isabel,

01:06:47.240 what do you think? In the moment, that's, that's their goal.

01:06:51.820 In the moment, that's not going to fix any long-term issues. That's,

01:06:56.600 that'll create more issues down the line.

01:07:00.220 Do you feel like you gave anything close to informed consent?

01:07:03.120 Not really. No, I would have never known the full gravity of what would have happened to me.

01:07:09.720 I could have never even predicted some of the stuff.

01:07:13.400 What do your parents say? Did they, did they feel like they knew?

01:07:17.280 I don't think they knew either. I think these drugs are very experimental and

01:07:21.720 all they knew that it was going to masculinize me. We didn't know anything.

01:07:28.020 And that too is basically admitted in these files. Here's just one more.

01:07:31.700 Um, Sadi, listen to this.

01:07:34.660 I try to kind of do whatever I can to help them understand best they, best I can. But what really

01:07:40.200 disturbs me is when the parents can't tell me what they need to know about a medical intervention that

01:07:49.180 apparently they signed off for.

01:07:54.500 Yes, it disturbs us all. So here's, here's, let's get back to Isabel's doctors.

01:08:01.700 Because I'm very interested. I mean, I'm interested in WPATH, but I'm very interested in the American

01:08:05.720 Academy of Pediatrics. You know, this was supposed to be the gold standard. If you heard they

01:08:10.040 recommended this schedule of vaccines, you did it. Um, and then during COVID, they were recommending

01:08:17.860 we stick the needle in our minors arms without question. Yes, go ahead and do it. No warnings of

01:08:25.840 myocarditis, none of it, just do it. And millions of people did it. You know, most of the parents I

01:08:31.480 know did it because it was mandated at our schools. We didn't do it. We got a considerable amount of

01:08:36.400 blowback for it. And I'm very thankful we didn't, but there have been, you know, more and more red

01:08:40.960 flags on not to trust this group as far as I'm concerned over the past several years. So this guy

01:08:45.380 Rafferty was, as I mentioned, part of, he was the resident when he was treating Isabel, but, um,

01:08:51.240 heading up this LGBTQ plus group within it, Jordan. And he is on camera along with one of your other

01:08:57.940 defendants, Michelle Forcier, um, talking about these issues. Just want the audience to hear from

01:09:04.100 these two, and then we'll get Jordan's reaction here. Watch this. Stop four.

01:09:07.400 So what we really advocate for in the, uh, in the paper is the sort of the gender affirmative

01:09:12.840 model of care. At the end of the day, it is about validating each person's experience and allowing

01:09:19.200 them to be more self-confident, allowing them to hopefully have a higher self-esteem because,

01:09:25.000 uh, they feel like they can be themselves and that they're appreciated for it.

01:09:28.680 Kids rarely change their minds about their gender identity. To say three and four-year-olds don't

01:09:34.320 understand gender doesn't give our kids a lot of credit. Dr. Michelle Forcier says gender identity

01:09:40.440 is formed very early. It's not a fad or a phase. And I tell parents that even though they may feel

01:09:47.460 or want to believe that. Jordan, she said three and four-year-olds, three and four-year-olds,

01:09:55.480 she said, should, I guess they're what we should be seeding the decision-making to them before they

01:10:01.460 can actually form proper sentences.

01:10:04.320 A couple of things actually on that, uh, Megan, I believe that video is from 2016 or 2017,

01:10:10.880 and it is a very different, uh, uh, tone than other video that she, I believe is recorded on

01:10:17.020 around 2012, where she basically says the opposite. So there's some sort of change, um, in how she

01:10:23.420 understands, uh, uh, children's understanding of their gender. Um, but yes, it is, uh, that is not a

01:10:33.260 surprising clip. If you've read AAP's policy statement, which again, Dr. Rafferty drafted

01:10:38.120 again, as a resident at the time, while he was treating Isabel at the time and seeing her spiral

01:10:44.720 out of control at the time. Um, and if you read that policy statement and in particular, if you look at

01:10:51.840 the purported science and, and research to actually support it, the footnotes that it says to support

01:10:59.220 those radical ideas that, uh, any child who expresses that they want to be in the other,

01:11:04.980 you know, in other sex should be given cross-sex hormones or puberty blockers that would

01:11:09.860 eventually lead to cross-sex hormones. Um, you'll see that none of it actually, it's completely

01:11:15.440 unsupported. It's, I don't want to say spun out of full cloth, but it comes pretty close. And Dr.

01:11:21.700 James Cantor, as we put in our complaint, actually published a twice peer reviewed, uh, journal article

01:11:27.580 that exposes the utter lack of science underlying the recommendations, the official recommendations of

01:11:34.520 the American Academy of Pediatrics. So those clips are, uh, unsurprising, sadly, um, given what we

01:11:42.860 know of the defendants and how their, how their policy statement was created and the lack of

01:11:48.940 evidence to support it. I have talked about this on the show before, but there's that moment when

01:11:55.040 your kid hits like 14 or 15, where the pediatrician says, mom, you need to step outside. We're going to

01:12:00.740 have a private conversation with your kid without you. And I think back in the day, not too long ago,

01:12:06.380 we would have done it thinking it's a sex ed thing. They don't want to ask them if they're having

01:12:10.520 sex in front of a parent. They want to talk to them about safe sex, but we know now that one of

01:12:16.080 the agenda items is this is whether you're in the right body. Are you sure you're a boy? Are you sure

01:12:23.180 you're a girl? We've heard that testified to over and over, but by various kids and their parents,

01:12:28.160 uh, who spoke with their kids. And it's a no, now it's a no, you will not be raising that with my

01:12:34.220 child. You adherent to this Academy of pediatrics, this American Academy. No, I know what they're

01:12:41.180 pushing on my doctor. And there's certainly not going to start pushing that on my child

01:12:45.320 with me in the room or not. So what, if you zoom out, Jordan, what do parents need to know

01:12:51.720 about this group? Because they really are like, this is, this is the group. All of our pediatricians

01:12:55.900 belong to this group basically. Well, a couple of things, Megan, I would just one, uh, push back a

01:13:03.940 hair just that the average rank and file pediatrician who may be a member of, of the AAP, um, may very

01:13:10.740 well be, and probably is a great doctor and a great pediatrician who either does not know about this or

01:13:17.880 just is, you know, kind of head down. They're a paying member, but they're not paying attention to

01:13:22.380 what one subcommittee is doing and potentially maybe even hijacking the policies of the AAP and

01:13:27.720 doing so. That said, uh, I do think that any parent, and I'm a parent, I have seven children,

01:13:33.960 actually, um, that any parent with any of your doctors should be very clear with what they're,

01:13:39.640 uh, you know, what they are saying to your children or knowing maybe the worldview they come

01:13:46.140 from. And, and if this is not something you support and it absolutely should not be, then you

01:13:51.380 certainly need to be aware of whether that's something that your particular pediatrician is

01:13:54.720 pushing. And lastly, uh, Jordan, just give us a, give us a minute on your firm and how people can

01:14:02.100 reach out to you if they need help with this, like your mission and who you're helping and what you're

01:14:06.660 doing. Yeah. Thanks, Megan. We started, uh, just under a year ago, last April, actually, um,

01:14:13.880 with the singular mission of, uh, representing detransitioners. And that quickly morphed into

01:14:20.880 representing detransitioners and others harmed by radical gender ideology. Um, we left all of our

01:14:27.640 prior practices, all of our clients, um, to be laser focused on this singular issue. And when I say

01:14:33.180 others, uh, harmed by radical gender ideology, some of our clients include parents of children who have

01:14:39.400 committed suicide after being put on this quote unquote gender affirming care. Um, we will be

01:14:45.600 representing soon, uh, the plaintiffs and the Chandler versus CDC are the, the, the litigation

01:14:51.860 out in California, challenging California's bill that says any male prisoner can say I'm a female and

01:14:57.360 go to women's prison. And I know you're familiar with that issue ever after having just had Amy

01:15:01.860 at Chicago and Kelsey Bowler on. So we'll be joining that. We also represent a whistleblower,

01:15:06.440 Tamara Pitsky up in Washington state who went, uh, went public a few weeks ago in the free press

01:15:11.900 with a great followup from Leo Sapir and city journal. Um, but that's sort of what we, uh,

01:15:18.380 we basically became aware of what was going on, um, with this trans ideology and agenda. And in

01:15:25.000 particular, the impact it was having on children and sort of each of the four of us said we should

01:15:31.340 do something. And so decided to use our training and abilities that we have been given, uh, to do

01:15:37.800 something. And so for those that are interested in helping out, there are, um, great organizations

01:15:43.720 that are supporting, uh, Wolf, for instance, women's liberation front is helping support Isabel's

01:15:48.500 case as well as the Chandler case. Uh, that's the women's prison case groups like the Themis resource

01:15:53.920 fund is, um, a new nonprofit that is, uh, existing to help fund these lawsuits because make no mistake,

01:16:00.680 these are very expensive lawsuits for our point is, um, the expert fees, uh, Themis, Themis resource fund,

01:16:08.220 the expert resource or excuse me, export expert expenses and costs in these cases can run over

01:16:15.440 200 to $300,000. And that's ultimately coming out of the client's pocket. So if you are interested in

01:16:21.660 helping, uh, financially, please, those are great organizations. You can also go to our website,

01:16:26.120 um, at campbellmullerpain.com or cmpplc.com or if it's easier, dtranslaw.com. Uh, and there's a

01:16:35.540 means to donate and all that money will go directly towards the expert fees to defray those costs for

01:16:41.120 our clients. I, I believe in your mission wholeheartedly. I hope you expand it once you

01:16:47.140 get this going and rolling and, and, you know, keeping the sustain, the float, uh, the firm afloat,

01:16:53.160 um, to people who are forced to use certain language, right. We've seen people fired because

01:16:59.320 they won't say the pronouns. We are, you know, our first guest today got booted out of the Canadian

01:17:04.500 powerlifting league because she refused to say a man was a woman. And there's so many people who need

01:17:09.300 help help that does matter professional jobs. And that matters. This matters more the physical health

01:17:15.300 and wellbeing of our children. That's issue. Number one, that's the number one battle in this front.

01:17:19.660 Um, I'll give you the last word on it. Go ahead, Jordan. I was just going to say, Megan,

01:17:23.780 to the point of expanding and hopefully growing, we haven't forgotten what you said to billboard,

01:17:28.160 Chris, that you would leave your current job to come, to come, uh, do this. So we've got a partner

01:17:32.920 position for you waiting just whenever you're ready. Thank you very much. I'm, I'm, I don't think

01:17:38.620 I've admitted in Texas, but I, I had, uh, I passed the bar in Massachusetts and Illinois and New York.

01:17:44.100 So maybe once, if, once I'm ready to hang it up, um, I will give you a call cause I would do this

01:17:49.380 for free. I would 100% for free. Isabel, I'm sending you all my love and I support you. And

01:17:56.880 please let me know if you need any further exposure or if you have a friend who wants anything that we

01:18:01.000 can do to help you. We're rooting for you. And I think I speak for my audience and I say,

01:18:04.640 we're praying for you. The future looks brighter than it has for a long time. I'm sure.

01:18:09.480 Thank you so much, Kelly. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having us on.

01:18:13.480 You too. All right. See you guys soon. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. This is just, you know,

01:18:22.420 remember that segment I did on the pronouns? God, I've been thinking about it a lot lately.

01:18:29.600 I've been thinking about it a lot. I've been thinking about the first part of that segment

01:18:32.440 where I said, you know, when I was at NBC, kind of emotional about it because look at this poor girl,

01:18:39.300 what it was down to her, that I realized now I was part of this problem. You know, I was,

01:18:45.660 my heart was in the right place. I wasn't trying to push anything bad on kids. I thought I was being

01:18:51.840 supportive of them. I thought I was promoting anti-bullying and now I just have such regret

01:18:56.460 about it. And I'm not a regretful person, as you know, because if you're not actively fighting

01:19:02.920 against this, you are part of the problem. You are hurting people like Isabel, people who are

01:19:08.220 vulnerable, who have been hurt. You just, you have to fight, whether it's a donation or just using your

01:19:15.480 voice or retweeting, you know, support for people like Isabel, Jordan, do it, do something, just do

01:19:24.560 something. Please don't protect yourself. And don't be lured into thinking it's empathetic to support

01:19:31.240 this radical, radical experimentation on minors. Okay. Uh, when we come back one more segment and

01:19:39.520 it's a whopper, Robbie Starbuck, uh, is here for the first time to talk about his new documentary,

01:19:44.740 the war on children. He sent this to me privately. Elon Musk has been tweeting about it.

01:19:49.780 Very, very powerful film. Um, and we'll get into what's in there. I'm Megan Kelly, host of the

01:19:55.380 Megan Kelly show on Sirius XM. It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations

01:20:01.500 with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today.

01:20:06.160 You can catch the Megan Kelly show on Triumph, a Sirius XM channel featuring lots of hosts you may

01:20:11.600 know and probably love. Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey,

01:20:17.720 and yours truly, Megan Kelly. You can stream the Megan Kelly show on Sirius XM at home or anywhere

01:20:24.220 you are. No car required. I do it all the time. I love the Sirius XM app. It has ad-free music

01:20:32.000 coverage of every major sport comedy talk podcast and more. Subscribe now, get your first three months

01:20:37.500 for free. Go to SiriusXM.com slash MK show to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com

01:20:46.820 slash MK show and get three months free. Offer details apply.

01:20:54.860 Do you feel like you had informed consent? No, I mean,

01:20:59.400 even the way they watered down their wording and called it top surgery instead of a double mastectomy,

01:21:08.460 you know, and there's just a lot of information that I didn't know about like my own anatomy

01:21:14.320 because mind you, I was so young. I hadn't taken a sex ed class. I hadn't even seen like

01:21:18.880 diagrams. I think the biggest thing that they left out that I still deal with sometimes is the nerve

01:21:25.060 damage on my scars and my chest. You know, they told me I might lose sensation, but I was expecting

01:21:31.060 numbness. I wasn't expecting like the electrifying jolts and just itchy sensation that I can't scratch.

01:21:39.760 What were some of the effects of testosterone in your female body?

01:21:44.840 Increased permanent body hair. My voice is deepened. I don't know if you could see it under

01:21:49.360 the lighting, but I actually, I have a slight Adam's apple. Is it your hope that those things

01:21:55.980 will go away? I will. I've just kind of accepted that some of these things I have to live with.

01:22:01.220 Hmm. That was detransitioner Layla Jane in the new film, The War on Children by filmmaker Robbie

01:22:09.120 Starbuck. Robbie formerly directed stars in music videos and has now turned to covering the most

01:22:13.980 important issues facing our society. This is a documentary again, called The War on Children,

01:22:18.800 and it exposes the left's attempt to sexualize and indoctrinate and quote, transition children.

01:22:26.700 Robbie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Megan, and for shining a light on this

01:22:31.920 issue. Oh, I mean, right back to you. I thought the world of the piece, uh, it was, is your wife,

01:22:37.260 the, the, your co-anchor, your partner in the film? She is. It's hard to believe she's so beautiful.

01:22:43.320 People are like, she must be somebody else. She related to you or something. There's no way you

01:22:47.540 married her. That wasn't it, but she was wonderful too. She did both of you did a great job. I just,

01:22:52.600 I've, I've heard of you and I've seen you out there tweeting about this. I, this is my first

01:22:56.340 introduction to her and I thought she was terrific. Um, so this covers, yes, what, what we're doing to

01:23:01.540 our youth with the totally inappropriate quote, transitions of minors. Um, but it, it goes beyond

01:23:07.400 that. And I thought of you because on Monday we were railing about the absurd Scott Pelley statements

01:23:15.380 in that 60 minutes piece about what ideology is it really that moms for Liberty is upset about what

01:23:25.600 books really. And to say that there are groomers amongst teachers and the librarian class who

01:23:32.920 select these books is really just an extremist right wing hate smear. And I thought you should

01:23:40.740 really send them your movie. Absolutely. I mean, this is the proof, the evidence that so many on the

01:23:47.720 left need to see. And it's actually a big reason we made this movie because I know the people on the

01:23:51.800 super far fringes there, they're not going to even watch. They're not going to give it a chance,

01:23:55.420 but the people in the middle, the people who were center left, the old blue dog Democrats,

01:23:59.280 they are movable. These are sensible people that you can show this film to. And they go,

01:24:04.280 Oh my gosh, I've been lied to. And that's why I think one of the most important things we did in

01:24:08.760 the film, aside from giving survivors a voice was going and using the words of the mainstream media

01:24:14.920 and showing the people how they'd been lied to, where we, we super cut through MSNBC, CNN, NBC,

01:24:21.760 all these places saying that no surgeries are being done to minors. And we hard cut to someone

01:24:27.540 like Layla Jane. And I ask, how old were you when they gave you a double mastectomy? And that's when

01:24:32.380 you find out it was the month of her 13th birthday. She hadn't even had a sex ed class in school yet.

01:24:37.160 And they did this to her and, you know, she's a survivor. She's made it through, but there are a lot

01:24:42.000 of young men and women who are not making it through that are going to die. They're going

01:24:45.720 to end up in a position where they don't get to grow up and have a family and detransition.

01:24:51.020 That's never going to be an opportunity for them because they're not going to make it through this.

01:24:55.640 You speak to, among others, Riley Gaines, who is great as expected in the film. And she's gotten

01:25:02.840 to the point where she can make these points so effectively and articulately in a short amount

01:25:06.200 of time. Here's a good exchange between the two of you and SOT19.

01:25:08.840 We were forced to swim against biological male Leah Thomas, who is formerly Will Thomas,

01:25:14.860 who swam three years on the men's team at University of Pennsylvania. Of course,

01:25:19.160 then transitioning to the women's category his senior year to where he dominated the women.

01:25:25.340 First of all, we weren't forewarned. We would be sharing a locker room. We had no idea.

01:25:28.760 We're in this locker room. I'm changing. I had my back turned silent. I turn around.

01:25:33.380 A six foot four, 22 year old man disrobing, fully intact with an exposing male genitalia.

01:25:38.000 The only time we became aware that this was the arrangement was when we had to see it with our

01:25:42.360 own eyes. Is it fair to refer to what happened to you with Leah Thomas exposing his penis to you

01:25:48.380 and other female swimmers' mental rape? No, it most certainly is fair to say that.

01:25:54.280 If a man would have walked into a woman's locker room, a DA is walking in there arresting this man,

01:25:58.820 and he is getting charged with sexual harassment, voyeurism, and decent exposure. And I'm sure the

01:26:03.440 list can go on of charges, but now it really is celebrated. It's encouraged.

01:26:10.380 Right. It's celebrated and encouraged and you get shamed if you speak up. Forgive me for not

01:26:17.920 allowing you to respond to that one before I play another one, but I love this film and I really

01:26:21.840 thought it was so compelling. I couldn't turn it off. And there's a teacher in here who talks about

01:26:27.780 how she felt like she was being asked to lie to her students. And I heard her say, I'm like,

01:26:34.080 that's exactly right. How uncomfortable. They make us lie to ourselves, to our companies, to,

01:26:40.080 in her case, her students, which is all hashtag part of the problem. Take a listen to SOT16.

01:26:45.860 This is fire teacher, Jessica Tapia.

01:26:49.660 You're a teacher who refused the transgender ideology at your school. And in return,

01:26:54.200 you were fired and the school refused to accommodate your religious beliefs. How did that make you feel?

01:27:00.200 It felt surreal and it still does. Honestly, you could have never told me that I would spend seven

01:27:06.360 years going to college to become a teacher, you know, live out my dream impacting and influencing,

01:27:12.800 you know, the next generations only to six years into my career be let go of because according to

01:27:19.580 my school district, they could not accommodate my religious beliefs. The policies they presented me

01:27:25.200 really essentially are wrapped around lying. So lying to students first and foremost, because they,

01:27:31.660 they've asked me to call children by whatever they want to be called by, whatever gender pronoun it is,

01:27:38.380 I have to go along with that. And so if you really think about that, right, that is lying to a child.

01:27:45.460 So Robbie, making us lie about the pronouns is all part, it's an important part of their game.

01:27:53.360 It's very important because it's about shared reality. You know, any type of cultural Marxism

01:27:59.300 that's come to be comes to be through chaos and dividing us on the lines of reality, what's real anymore.

01:28:06.340 And so if you force people to lie, and you change the definitions of words, this is the end result is

01:28:12.840 you're able to usher in a cultural Marxism across the board that leads to a political Marxism.

01:28:17.900 And that's really the end goal here is a modern form of communism. That's what we're facing. You

01:28:23.140 know, my family came from Cuba. And it's a big reason why I felt compelled to basically burn down my

01:28:28.300 career in Hollywood, and speak out about these issues, you know, because it's just about the dumbest

01:28:33.020 thing you can do in Hollywood is come out and be like, Hey, I'm a conservative. And let's talk about

01:28:36.660 all these issues you guys act like absolutely lunatics about, you know? Yeah, completely. But

01:28:42.960 you, you do a very effective job in the film of showing how some of these sneaky things have gotten

01:28:49.380 into our school systems that sound nice. And it's not just DEI. I think our audience is familiar with

01:28:54.520 how they've done that. But to, to pull a couple, uh, exposure effect, the mere exposure, uh, effect,

01:29:02.640 comprehensive sex ed, which is not what you think it is folks and social emotional learning. Let's

01:29:09.420 start on that last one because it has such a nice name and it used to do kind of nice things,

01:29:17.080 social emotional learning. All right. So talk about what that was and why now if parents hear that

01:29:23.300 they need to have a red flag up. It sounds so nice, doesn't it? I mean, all these words,

01:29:29.120 that's, that's really, uh, it's great marketing. I'll give them that they've really marketed these

01:29:33.240 things effectively because who hears that and thinks, Oh, that's a threat. You know,

01:29:37.060 it's kind of like a teddy bear with a bomb inside. You would never expect it. Right.

01:29:41.160 But the reality of this in practicing classrooms results in, Hey, essentially we're going to remove

01:29:47.200 the lines of what is right and wrong because you can't judge anybody that would be,

01:29:51.200 you know, not emotionally. Okay. For that other person, they'd feel emotionally unsafe.

01:29:56.660 It leads to all of these sort of social justice topics. And it's an opening for the teachers to

01:30:02.540 insert their own political ideology. And so really I can't explain it better than the experts in the

01:30:08.800 film do because they so perfectly pick apart everything wrong with social emotional learning.

01:30:14.680 But as you go down the line, like you said, all of these different issues, they may sound nice

01:30:19.440 in theory, but in reality, they work out very differently.

01:30:24.000 It's, it's a, basically it's teaching everything through this racial and equitable lens, which

01:30:32.500 just, it's re restores racial hierarchies and equity is really just code for inequity and racism. I mean,

01:30:41.100 that's the truth. So what was once more of a, like a pay attention to feelings and all that has now

01:30:46.960 been co-opted into a racial imprint is on everything. And there is a hierarchy that is taught to your

01:30:54.320 kids through this social emotional learning. You take on DEI and this race essentialism that's

01:31:01.120 pervasive now in so many of our school lessons. I mean, it's everywhere. And you feature my favorite

01:31:07.800 pastor. We played him just the other day. Um, he was one of the ones who took a stand publicly

01:31:13.600 saying, let me read you this disgusting book that wound up in our school library. Oh,

01:31:18.940 was it something I said? Oh, you, did I offend you at the school board meeting? Um, his name is John.

01:31:25.460 I'm a shook you. I don't care. I don't have it. It's I'm on Chuck. Woo. That's how it's pronounced.

01:31:32.140 Forgive me, John. You're amazing. You know, I love you. Uh, and here's a bit of you talking to him

01:31:36.680 about what's happening. This is again from the war on children. Watch. What does it mean to you as a

01:31:43.740 black man, as a black father, do you feel protected or included by knowing that there's a DEI officer

01:31:50.260 at every school? No, I don't. It doesn't benefit blacks through DEI. In North Carolina, in particular,

01:31:57.660 when you consider Wake County, we've had a DEI office since 2013, and they have spent nearly $8.7

01:32:06.620 million on that office. And where are the measurable outcomes? You can't find any.

01:32:16.920 So as you've taken a hard look at this, you know, the, the race craziness, the gender craziness,

01:32:24.240 and the weird attempt to sexualize our children at very young ages. Do you have a thought on what's

01:32:31.940 the biggest threat? And also, are we winning this war or losing it?

01:32:39.200 All of these things are weapons in the war on children that all ultimately lead to the desire

01:32:44.780 to usher in a modern form of communism. You know, like we cover social media and big tech in the film

01:32:49.820 and its effect on young people. And I think social media is a really good example for the older

01:32:53.960 crowd to understand the difference between modern communism and the communism from their generation,

01:32:58.940 because some of them have thought, oh, well, this couldn't be communism. They're not outright saying

01:33:03.220 they want to take control of private industry. But you don't need to anymore. The truth is the

01:33:09.160 modern day communists are even less honest than the communists of the past. And that's saying

01:33:12.900 something since the communists of the past were disgusting liars. So these ones are even bigger

01:33:17.080 liars. And if you look at big tech, functionally, take a look at how they treated censorship around

01:33:22.900 the 2020 election. Myself and Charlie Kirk currently have an amicus brief at the Supreme Court in the

01:33:28.540 Missouri v. Biden case, because DHS used proxies paid by the government to make censorship requests

01:33:34.660 to take down our accounts on social media, because we were pushing facts and stories that were not

01:33:41.500 what the media wanted or what the administration wanted the narrative to be. And so when you look

01:33:47.540 at the reality of what our government's turned into, they essentially own big tech. They can tell

01:33:51.460 them what to do at every turn. You look beyond the apps, you know, that we're all on for social

01:33:56.520 media at a company like, say, Google. Google answers to the Democratic Party. Look no further than a lot

01:34:01.720 of their executives and employees, like their comms director, who has a litany of far left Democrats

01:34:07.780 he worked with before he became an executive at Facebook. So, you know, I think all those things

01:34:13.360 together, you can very clearly see that they want to control all these segments of society,

01:34:18.560 these cultural institutions to push an authoritarian far left vision for our country. And the reason our

01:34:24.120 kids are so important is because you need to separate kids from their parents to be able to usher in this

01:34:29.380 ideology. It works like that every single time they did it in Cuba. They will do the same thing here if

01:34:35.020 we don't stop them. And as to your point of, are we winning the war? I'm going to be really honest.

01:34:40.720 We are not winning at this point. Have we started to turn the tide? Yes. But the reason that we made

01:34:46.320 this movie, the reason that we're doing everything that we're doing is because we desperately need to

01:34:52.460 win. We need to wake people up. We need to get the word out there about what this actually is.

01:34:58.620 And I think one of the most toxic things is, you know, a lot of people, they get these stories,

01:35:03.440 their life is so busy. You see them on a, you know, biweekly basis. So you'll see some crazy

01:35:08.180 story about a kid being transitioned. And then two weeks later, you see one about a DEI policy

01:35:12.900 resulting in something terrible. But it's very difficult unless you see it all at once to really

01:35:17.620 understand the totality of how evil this really is. And that's why we made the film, because this

01:35:22.880 can take somebody who does not understand what's going on. And if they sit and watch the film at the

01:35:27.800 end of it, they will have no excuse to not be activated to be a warrior for our kids and save this

01:35:32.180 country. Because even if you disagree with me on tax policy or school choice or whatever it is,

01:35:37.000 you should care enough about our children, about the future generation, about their minds,

01:35:40.800 about the freedom of their minds to stand up and do something to stop this ideology in its tracks,

01:35:46.180 because the religion of wokeness will destroy this country if we don't stop it.

01:35:50.920 Amen. Amen. Robbie, well done. Again, it's called the war on children. Of course,

01:35:56.980 it's you're not going to see it on HBO. You're not going to see it over on Hulu.

01:36:00.980 You've got to see it, though. So just go to the war on children dot com. Support Robbie and

01:36:07.100 enlighten yourself, because even I immersed in this stuff every day, learned a ton from this film.

01:36:11.560 And I'm grateful to you for making it, Robbie. All the best.

01:36:14.960 Thank you so much. Your work means a lot to us, too. And we're big fans. So keep it up. And thank

01:36:19.460 you so much for shining a light on our film. Oh, thank you. Again, war on the war on children dot com.

01:36:25.400 And I do want to say in response to our earlier segment,

01:36:27.260 the defendants and Isabel's lawsuit have not yet weighed in on this. We don't yet have their all

01:36:32.380 of their denials. I'm sure that they are denying the charges levied against them and that that will

01:36:37.840 play out in litigation. But if they would like to come on and defend themselves, they are welcome

01:36:41.920 here to offer their defenses in full. Tonight is the State of the Union. So that's exciting.

01:36:49.140 We'll have it fully covered for you tomorrow. Tune in then. But we will have a good show tomorrow,

01:36:56.520 so you should tune in. Thanks for watching, you guys. We appreciate it.

01:37:01.700 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 07, 2024

Radical Trans Ideology Hurting Kids and Female Athletes, with April Hutchinson, Robby Starbuck, Isabelle Ayala, and Jordan Campbell ｜ Ep. 741

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript