The Megyn Kelly Show - Raising ＂Outdoor＂ Kids, and Overcoming Toxic Achievement Culture, with Steven Rinella and Jennifer Wallace

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00:00:44.160 Yeah.

00:00:45.640 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:47.640 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:57.200 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:58.880 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:00.840 Day two in the Sirius XM HQ.

00:01:03.680 And I have yet to see Howard Stern.

00:01:06.980 I don't, I'm looking.

00:01:07.900 I don't think he's here.

00:01:09.440 But he has a beautiful studio.

00:01:11.020 I also have a nice little makeshift studio here.

00:01:13.580 And I'm here with Mike Paco.

00:01:15.220 Who's like the genius behind this show.

00:01:17.340 You never get to, if you call in, that's who you talk to.

00:01:20.420 And we're never in the same room at the same time.

00:01:22.500 Good to see you Paco.

00:01:23.380 Good to see you too.

00:01:24.160 Abigail Finan here as well.

00:01:26.700 Okay.

00:01:27.000 So we are here because I am at home in Connecticut getting ready for school.

00:01:31.960 And I'm sure a lot of you can relate.

00:01:34.080 There's so much to do, isn't there?

00:01:35.440 There's such a long list.

00:01:37.180 And like, there's no one to pawn it off on.

00:01:40.540 You as the parents, you have to make the decisions.

00:01:43.420 Abigail Finan helps me with a lot of it.

00:01:45.020 But I'm just saying there's a lot.

00:01:46.520 So I'm dealing with it.

00:01:47.240 I'm sure all of you are dealing with it.

00:01:49.380 And Godspeed.

00:01:50.880 In our second hour, speaking of parental responsibilities, an old friend of mine who's an award-winning journalist.

00:01:58.260 She's worked for 60 Minutes.

00:01:59.280 I knew her very well when we lived in New York.

00:02:00.720 Her name is Jenny Wallace, Jennifer Wallace.

00:02:02.340 And she's got one of the hottest books out on the market right now on parenting, on the meat grinder that we put our kids through and how you know it's causing anxiety and depression.

00:02:13.380 But how to work around it while still raising kids who have ambition, kids who have life goals, kids who understand the value of hard work.

00:02:21.520 How do you thread that needle?

00:02:23.180 Right?

00:02:24.000 She took a deep, deep dive.

00:02:25.700 And Jenny's interesting because she went to Harvard.

00:02:27.760 She's married to a guy who's extremely successful.

00:02:30.840 And she found herself in the mix of, you know, these New York City private schools, which is where we met her, you know, sort of getting on that train where you just, you know, you pressure your kid and you want the A's and you want the high achievement.

00:02:44.080 And your little junior's got to be in all the extracurricular activities that everybody else is doing.

00:02:47.800 And then you realize, wait, what am I doing?

00:02:49.920 What am I doing?

00:02:51.440 She had that aha moment.

00:02:53.040 She's written a whole book about it.

00:02:54.280 First, it was an article in The Washington Post that went totally viral.

00:02:57.200 And she wrote a book afterward, which is well worth your time.

00:03:01.440 She's here in our second hour.

00:03:02.700 But before that, I am joined by someone who I find absolutely fascinating.

00:03:08.320 There's so much to go over with Stephen Rinella.

00:03:10.580 He is the meat eater from Michigan.

00:03:14.060 Now, Stephen is the host of the long running television show Meat Eater.

00:03:17.700 And he's one of the top podcast hosts in the country.

00:03:20.640 And on that show, he dives into the nuances of hunting and the art of wild game cooking.

00:03:28.980 Now, I, as a recent city slicker, past 20 years of my life, you'd think I wouldn't know anything about these things.

00:03:34.500 But I know a little.

00:03:35.600 And I got a lot of questions for Stephen, who is the New York Times bestselling author of Count Them Ten Books,

00:03:40.960 including Outdoor Kids in an Inside World, Getting Your Family Out of the House and Radically Engaged with Nature,

00:03:49.140 and his latest, which is called Catch a Crayfish, Count the Stars, Fun Projects, Skills, and Adventures for Outdoor Kids.

00:03:57.860 He's here to discuss how to get your kids to put down the technology and embrace the great outdoors.

00:04:05.500 Steve, welcome to the show.

00:04:07.340 Hey, thank you, Megan.

00:04:08.400 I appreciate it.

00:04:08.980 That was a very nice, that was a very nice welcome from you.

00:04:11.880 Well, I really appreciate the way you live your life and the messaging behind it.

00:04:15.600 We split our time now, and we spend a fair amount of the year, I mean, for somebody who doesn't live there permanently, out in Montana,

00:04:21.960 which is, I know, you live in Bozeman.

00:04:24.240 That's right.

00:04:24.880 Or as Abigail Finan calls it, Bozeman.

00:04:27.260 Bozeman.

00:04:30.640 She's taking a beating today.

00:04:33.700 And so I love the great outdoors.

00:04:35.440 And as soon as you leave the city, where I know you used to live, too, and you go to a place like Montana,

00:04:41.040 you are reminded of how critical it is to your well-being.

00:04:44.400 So let's just start with that.

00:04:45.400 Just the overall importance for people who have gotten sucked into city life of removing oneself

00:04:50.560 and reminding oneself what it's like to be under a big sky.

00:04:53.980 Well, to answer that, first I want to point out that I do live in Montana now, and I've spent quite a little bit of time here.

00:05:04.840 But my kids were born through circumstances of work and relationships.

00:05:10.560 My kids were born in New York.

00:05:12.720 Saw that.

00:05:13.300 My two older kids were born in New York.

00:05:14.800 So I have some familiarity with that, and that actually plays a big part in some of the writing I've done

00:05:20.700 about getting kids involved in the outdoors is that unique set of challenges in an urban environment.

00:05:27.840 But I was raised very much hunting, fishing, trapping.

00:05:32.960 We were in the outdoors all the time.

00:05:34.560 And I think I tried to explain, and people have a hard time understanding where this would come from,

00:05:40.620 is it was so important to our lives when I was a kid that I would get an honest to God,

00:05:46.720 like I would get a guilty conscience if I wasn't spending enough time outside.

00:05:51.520 It was sort of like pushed forward as that level of importance.

00:05:55.220 I equate it to how someone might feel bad about missing church.

00:05:59.100 It was that I would feel bad to not be outside.

00:06:03.340 It was just regarded as so important in our lives.

00:06:05.880 That's good.

00:06:06.580 So when I had kids, I had a lot of, I don't want to say anxiety because it wasn't necessarily negative.

00:06:14.100 I just had a very, I put a really high priority on getting my kids engaged with nature.

00:06:21.260 And I think that the difficulty of the environment we were in for a few years really added to that

00:06:29.520 because it wasn't easy and I had to make it happen.

00:06:33.340 Of course.

00:06:34.020 I mean, I think we all went through that recently, but the way we grew up,

00:06:38.800 because I think I read you were born in 74, so you grew up in the 70s and 80s like I did.

00:06:44.500 What did your parents say to you every time you went to them and said,

00:06:47.500 what can I do?

00:06:48.480 Mom, what can I do?

00:06:49.440 The answer was always the same.

00:06:51.080 Play outside.

00:06:52.400 Go play outside.

00:06:53.280 And, you know, I was raised in Syracuse, New York for the first 10 years, which is like nine months out of the year,

00:06:59.680 there's three feet of snow outside.

00:07:01.180 But still, it was like, get out there.

00:07:03.440 Today, it's very different.

00:07:04.900 It is like they don't even ask, what can I do?

00:07:07.780 They go right to the device.

00:07:09.240 You have to interject yourself into that relationship to say, get off of that thing and go play outside.

00:07:16.100 So it's, I mean, I think it's a bigger challenge for people in the city because you can't, like in New York,

00:07:20.620 just say, go play outside.

00:07:21.780 That's not going to happen for a six-year-old in Manhattan.

00:07:24.860 Like, good luck.

00:07:26.000 Have fun.

00:07:27.180 But if you live in the suburbs, maybe you have a basketball court or maybe you have a lawn or a swing set.

00:07:32.620 It makes life easier.

00:07:34.060 But that connection with the great outdoors actually is, it's the opposite of depressing.

00:07:38.320 It's uplifting.

00:07:39.180 I think it's good for your mental wellness, good for your physical wellness.

00:07:41.680 And if you go long enough without having you, even if you're not an outdoorsy person, bad things start to happen.

00:07:49.080 Oh, I think there's huge detriments to it.

00:07:51.920 And I just want to touch on a handful of the things you said there.

00:07:55.480 When I was little, you're right.

00:07:58.080 It was always go outside.

00:07:59.240 In fact, if we got caught inside, you know, you were probably going to get a chore list because it was just, you know,

00:08:10.600 if they caught you watching TV or something, my mom or dad was going to write down on a piece, on a legal pad, chores for you to do.

00:08:18.980 If I was outside, it was just regarded as I was up to something constructive and I would find freedom and be left alone.

00:08:26.980 That's brilliant.

00:08:28.080 In the city, it's different.

00:08:29.260 You're right.

00:08:29.640 And that's one of the things that nagged at me is I had to be a real driver to make it happen.

00:08:37.440 And you have to be an escort and accompany your kids at times.

00:08:41.960 One of the things, though, that I picked up from my parents.

00:08:44.280 Before I say this, I'll point out that I find so many people my age who kind of, who have sort of wholeheartedly rejected a lot of lessons that they might have learned from their own parents.

00:09:00.520 I threw out parts and I kept parts.

00:09:02.400 And one of the parts I kept is my parents were not afraid to exercise their role as authoritarians in the family, meaning I don't put everything to my kids as a question or I don't put everything to them as doing me a favor.

00:09:18.940 I will just explicitly say that this is what we're going to do.

00:09:22.760 We're going outside.

00:09:24.180 The reason I can get away with this is they're always they always feel better when we do.

00:09:29.620 So if I'm overcoming some amount of resistance or inertia from them, you know, hey, we're going to go camping this weekend and they had other plans or were hoping to go hang out at their friend's house, you know, where maybe there's more ready available access to screens.

00:09:44.720 And I just say that this this is what we're doing.

00:09:47.000 Me and mommy have made up our minds.

00:09:48.580 We're all going camping.

00:09:50.200 I know that we're going to come home and they're going to feel better than they would have otherwise.

00:09:55.440 They're going to be exhausted at the end of the day.

00:09:58.500 They're going to sleep great.

00:09:59.920 They're going to feel invigorated.

00:10:01.440 They're going to be in a good mood.

00:10:03.060 So I don't mind laying down the law about how we're going to spend time because I know in the end they are at times quite literally going to thank us for having made the plans that we made.

00:10:17.180 Can I ask you as somebody who doesn't do a lot of camping, though, it it's always been a life goal to actually do more.

00:10:25.500 We used to go to my microphone here.

00:10:28.840 OK, we used to go to Selkirk.

00:10:31.320 We called it.

00:10:32.020 It was Lake Ontario in New York State when I was growing up.

00:10:35.260 And we would go to this little cabin and we would stay in this cabin, which you probably don't consider camping.

00:10:40.000 But we considered camping for two weeks a year.

00:10:41.920 Here we go.

00:10:42.880 And ever since I've wanted to get back to something like that.

00:10:44.880 But I don't like what do you do?

00:10:46.700 Like if you go camping with your family for a weekend, what do you guys do during the day?

00:10:51.920 Walk me through a typical day.

00:10:54.340 Oh, well, again, there's a couple of things to say here.

00:10:59.080 We when we first had kids, we would tent camp, but it got too hard.

00:11:04.780 We have three young kids.

00:11:07.000 We caved and did something I thought I would never do.

00:11:10.540 And we bought a camper, a camper trailer.

00:11:13.480 And that has just changed everything.

00:11:15.600 It makes it so easy to go.

00:11:17.680 Everything's loaded up and ready to go.

00:11:19.520 We spend so much more time out than we would otherwise.

00:11:22.260 So that was a compromise.

00:11:25.240 We're really into we like to do a lot of exploring.

00:11:29.240 We do a lot of fishing.

00:11:30.160 Um, in the fall months, we hunt a lot.

00:11:34.080 Uh, so this time of year, we fish, we look for mushrooms, we hang out, we shoot 22s.

00:11:40.180 Um, just whatever, you know, we play games, we play a lot of, uh, scrabble and banana grams,

00:11:46.840 whatever.

00:11:47.220 We just get away.

00:11:48.140 And the place we like to go, there's no cell service.

00:11:51.100 So I'll use a Garmin inReach in case there's an emergency, but we like it because there's

00:11:56.080 zero cell service where we go.

00:11:57.480 Another thing we did, and this is a, this is a luxury that not everyone can afford.

00:12:03.700 But some years ago, we purchased a small inholding in the mountains, inholding in the national

00:12:10.360 forest.

00:12:11.500 Um, and that's kind of our hangout spot.

00:12:14.000 What's that?

00:12:14.500 I don't know what that is.

00:12:15.620 Literally is a shack in Alaska on the, on the coast in Southeast Alaska that I bought many

00:12:22.120 years ago.

00:12:22.700 Um, and so we hang out there and again, no cell service, it's just quiet.

00:12:28.020 Um, but if we didn't have those places and sometimes we go other places, we just make

00:12:31.560 plans.

00:12:32.080 Um, and they're usually centered around for us looking for berries, looking for mushrooms,

00:12:36.920 fishing, hunting, playing, sitting in hammocks, making s'mores.

00:12:40.500 We do a wider, a wide variety of things.

00:12:43.840 It's just very close time.

00:12:45.980 It's very tight knit family time.

00:12:48.020 And we're not always going to have this, you know, our oldest kids, 13, like this is going

00:12:53.720 to change soon, but I like to maximize it now.

00:12:57.740 Hmm.

00:12:58.160 I'm in the same boat as you are.

00:12:59.500 Oldest is 13, about to be 14.

00:13:01.920 Uh, and absolutely love the camping experiences I've had though.

00:13:06.700 The glamping is not bad either.

00:13:08.460 I'm not going to lie.

00:13:09.500 It's, it's not terrible to have the guide who's going to like put the tent up for you

00:13:14.640 and make the breakfast though.

00:13:16.480 I, I, I know you're more of a, you know, old school camper as is Abigail Finan.

00:13:21.360 She was raised on her dad's back when she was a baby climbing up the mountain.

00:13:25.240 She's gotten safety vests and headlamps for all of the Kelly Brunt family.

00:13:29.360 Um, but all, but all of it, like getting outside, it does make you feel better.

00:13:33.780 And the family connection time with no cell service so much the better.

00:13:36.780 So, but the other piece of it for you is the hunting.

00:13:40.460 Now this is where I can't relate.

00:13:42.780 I've never killed any sort of animal, you know, for sport or for food.

00:13:49.040 Um, and I confess, I am one of those squeamish people who's like, Oh, it's a sweet deer.

00:13:55.180 Oh no, he's like a little doe-eyed deer.

00:13:57.460 But I get it.

00:13:58.200 It's not, not that I object to anybody else doing it.

00:14:00.500 I just couldn't do it myself.

00:14:02.620 So talk to me about how that gets ingrained in you.

00:14:06.120 And cause I know I've heard you say like to other people, I, I, I guarantee you, I know

00:14:10.380 more about deer and care more about deer than the average person.

00:14:13.100 And it's not just about deer, but like, how did you get into hunting and how do you pass

00:14:16.260 that on?

00:14:17.600 Yeah.

00:14:18.260 Uh, I'll start off by saying, uh, no, no apology necessary on, on not hunting.

00:14:24.440 Uh, I, you know, I, if someone's not interested in it and doesn't engage in it, um, I never tell

00:14:32.200 them that that's something that they need to do.

00:14:34.200 It, it, it's a huge part of my life, but I don't think it's the only way to find happiness

00:14:40.540 and develop like a deep connection with nature.

00:14:42.920 It's a, it's a thing that some of us are drawn to and some are not drawn to, uh, it was a

00:14:48.920 huge part of life growing up.

00:14:51.240 It was, I began hunting well before I remember, um, my dad fought in world war II and when he

00:15:02.280 came home, he was immediately, you know, he just came home as an avid hunter.

00:15:07.040 There was one time a quote from someone who'd said like, of that generation, how could you

00:15:12.860 teach an entire generation of young men to shoot and camp, uh, and not expect them to

00:15:20.200 become hunters or something to that effect.

00:15:21.900 Right.

00:15:22.200 So that was just the environment I was raised in.

00:15:25.600 And we lived in Western Michigan and we did a lot of stuff around food.

00:15:30.840 I mean, we hunted and fished cause we loved it and it was fun and it was, and it engaged

00:15:34.900 you with the outdoors, but it was also, you know, we had a lot of fish fries and ate a

00:15:39.400 lot of deer meat and it was just ingrained.

00:15:42.060 It was very important that I introduced my kids to it for, for both for them and for me.

00:15:47.840 And I think this is a thing that people often overlook.

00:15:52.880 I got my kids into the outdoors in some respects.

00:15:55.940 I did it because for selfish reasons, that's where I like to be.

00:16:00.480 Okay.

00:16:01.320 And if I want to demonstrate to my kids, a level of enthusiasm, a level of expertise,

00:16:07.120 a level of passion, it would make sense that I would do it in an arena where I feel those

00:16:14.660 things the same way that a parent who's really into sports is going to introduce their kid

00:16:18.220 to sports because that enthusiasm becomes infectious.

00:16:21.880 Right.

00:16:22.780 So I did it because I love it, but also I did it for them as well because I think there's

00:16:28.320 really valuable lessons to be learned there.

00:16:30.500 I like my kids, you know, I like it that they have a pretty raw edge to them.

00:16:35.040 They're very compassionate toward animals.

00:16:36.820 Just recently, I mentioned my camper.

00:16:38.520 We had a mouse infestation in our camper.

00:16:43.000 They caught one in a live trap and kept it as a pet because they were mad at me that I

00:16:48.560 was going to set a kill trap.

00:16:49.960 At the same time, they're quite comfortable hunting.

00:16:52.480 Last night, we had antelope that we hunted.

00:16:55.320 We had stingray that we spearfished for.

00:16:58.120 Oh, cool.

00:16:58.600 So they can live in these two places of being very compassionate caregivers to a wide array

00:17:03.980 of pets that they own.

00:17:05.580 They tame mice.

00:17:07.180 They hunt deer.

00:17:08.700 They hunt grouse.

00:17:10.080 If you introduce it at a young age, none of this is confusing to them.

00:17:14.280 It's they have complicated relationships with wildlife and it doesn't cause any whiplash

00:17:20.800 for them to jump back and forth between caregiver and harvest.

00:17:25.080 It's all part of this continuum with them.

00:17:28.240 I have so many thoughts on this.

00:17:29.540 I see it more like I realize, you know, there's a whole food industry that would provide me with

00:17:34.660 meat to eat if the, you know, Steve's were not out there.

00:17:37.980 But I do kind of see hunters as like a few good men.

00:17:41.220 Like, you want me on that wall.

00:17:43.820 You need me on that wall.

00:17:45.500 Who else is going to do it?

00:17:46.380 You, you, Lieutenant Weinberg.

00:17:48.180 That's me.

00:17:48.820 Like, I need the guys like you out there because I, I don't think I'm capable of killing my

00:17:53.640 own food.

00:17:54.240 But when we go to Montana, I know a ton of guys just like you who they're out there.

00:17:58.920 They'll, they'll, they'll kill a bison or they'll kill an elk and then we'll eat it.

00:18:04.440 And that to me seems okay.

00:18:06.740 Like man has been hunting and killing his own food since the dawn of time.

00:18:11.220 It's a natural process.

00:18:13.200 But I feel more like Jim Brewer, who I just saw and do a standup in Atlantic city last

00:18:17.460 weekend where he was talking about how he got brought out to hunt and he got brought out to

00:18:21.240 fish.

00:18:21.640 And he's the guy in the fishing boat who, when he pulls in the trout is like, I'm sorry.

00:18:26.520 I'm sorry.

00:18:27.720 The fish is looking at him.

00:18:31.100 Um, but I love that you're getting your kids into, I feel for your wife.

00:18:34.660 You married a city slicker.

00:18:35.960 I think I can't imagine her with the kids who want to keep the mouse.

00:18:39.380 Well, no, she, well, it's a little more complicated than that.

00:18:42.060 She, she grew up, we didn't know each other there, but she grew up in Michigan.

00:18:45.820 Uh, not too terribly far from where I grew up.

00:18:48.340 We actually met later in the first time I ever came to New York.

00:18:52.040 Cause when I sold my first book, um, to Miramax and she had just started working there.

00:19:00.200 So I came there and had a meeting where I met my editor and, and, um, she was in that

00:19:06.720 meeting.

00:19:07.300 So we knew each other for some time, but we have a common background in Michigan.

00:19:12.240 She spent 12 years in New York.

00:19:14.160 Uh, but no, she, she doesn't, uh, like you, she doesn't, uh, personally, you know, she

00:19:22.800 doesn't hunt.

00:19:23.400 She loves to fish.

00:19:24.280 She loves that our kids do it because she likes our kids to be self-sufficient and she likes them

00:19:28.220 to be competent in a variety of environments, right?

00:19:31.620 She wants them to feel a level of competency in a city, New York, Seattle, wherever.

00:19:37.780 And she wants them to feel competency in a swamp or on a mountain.

00:19:42.500 So she applauds it.

00:19:44.280 And even when we found out we were going to have our daughter, she was adamant that there

00:19:50.900 would be no different treatment for our daughter Rosemary than there was for her older brother.

00:19:58.620 Um, which is, which is a somewhat novel concept in, in hunting families.

00:20:03.400 Cause hunting families, my own included, tend to be that it's, it's males that do the hunting.

00:20:10.340 Um, and so we're subverting that with this generation that I'm engaged with now.

00:20:16.500 Hmm.

00:20:17.580 Um, did your wife think at all, like maybe instead of the mouse, you get a dog, uh, like

00:20:22.440 a cat, even a hamster.

00:20:25.740 We have, she, we have a dog.

00:20:28.500 We have all kinds of pets actually.

00:20:30.500 Uh, but the mouse, I'll point out that the mouse was not allowed to come in the house.

00:20:37.520 He had to live outside and he, the, the current two mice ago chewed a hole through the thing

00:20:46.060 and got away.

00:20:47.060 Then they took their live trap out and caught another one and that one jumped out of their

00:20:52.720 hands and got away.

00:20:53.660 So now they're this weekend planning on resupplying on pet mice.

00:20:58.080 God bless.

00:20:58.480 And my boy just got a lecture from his pediatrician about virus and typhus and what.

00:21:05.060 That's where my mind would go too.

00:21:07.520 He, he, he brushed it off and said that he was going to give his mouth a bath, his mouth

00:21:12.120 a bath, which I think he thought would take care of some of the infectious disease issues.

00:21:16.520 See, even your ability to laugh about that and be sort of like, you know, it's like whatever.

00:21:20.520 Like I think as a city slicker wife, I'd be like, no, that's a real thing.

00:21:24.800 Typhus.

00:21:25.220 We can't get it.

00:21:25.840 Put the mouse down.

00:21:26.640 Don't touch it.

00:21:27.180 None of all of us are going to get sick.

00:21:28.500 That's, that's, that's the difference.

00:21:30.140 But you know what I, with my kids, man, me too, I always ask myself, is this really going

00:21:35.240 to be the thing I die from, you know?

00:21:37.820 And I just have a feeling I'll die from heart disease, you know, or, or cancer down the road.

00:21:44.520 Like, I just can't picture a scenario in which I die and the coroner is says, has he been

00:21:52.720 playing with pet mice?

00:21:54.340 It's just like, I just don't take, there's a lot of things I don't take seriously.

00:21:57.660 I think people are not, especially when it comes to the outdoors.

00:22:01.040 I think people have a really hard time with risk assessment.

00:22:04.100 They're not, they're, they're not good at risk assessment and they're not good at understanding

00:22:09.340 statistics and probability when it comes to how we're going to get our injured.

00:22:14.460 The amount of people I hear from that are worried about mountain lions and black bears,

00:22:19.040 um, which are a non-issue.

00:22:21.920 It's a non-threat.

00:22:23.600 Uh, it's just, it's, I'd like, I'd say it's a maddening, but that seems a little intolerant,

00:22:29.120 but people are a little high strung about risk.

00:22:31.540 I think.

00:22:32.820 Mike, I understand what you're saying, but having a place in Montana, you know, as you well

00:22:38.520 know, they have the grizzlies too.

00:22:41.040 And I know you've had an animal, different animal.

00:22:43.500 Yeah.

00:22:43.620 You've had some close encounters and I'll just tell you, cause I want to show some videotape

00:22:48.120 of one of your close encounters from your show.

00:22:49.740 But when I got to Montana, they said to us, don't, don't, cause there've been grizzlies

00:22:56.200 right outside of where we have our cabin.

00:22:58.060 And they said, don't go for a walk unless you bring the bear spray.

00:23:01.920 So I'm like, okay, we'll bring, and then they show you how to use the bear spray.

00:23:04.920 And the lesson we got went as follows, um, you have to wait to spray the bear spray until

00:23:11.160 it's within like 10 feet of you.

00:23:12.820 And you got to spray it at the, at the ground where the bear's nose is.

00:23:17.360 Um, so basically you will wind up in the bear's jaws.

00:23:20.320 Uh, but your goal is to incapacitate them.

00:23:22.660 I think 10 feet, that's a lot of restraint, but yeah.

00:23:25.920 And then they said, then they said, no, if it's a black bear, you want to make yourself

00:23:30.540 big and try to be scary.

00:23:32.340 Like, Oh, he'll be afraid of you and he'll leave.

00:23:35.140 Okay.

00:23:35.420 But if it's a brown bear, don't do that at all.

00:23:38.820 Be quiet, be still.

00:23:40.120 And whatever you do, don't run.

00:23:42.920 But there's one complicating factor, which is sometimes the black bears are brown.

00:23:47.760 So I'm like, what the fuck is that?

00:23:51.100 We're all dead.

00:23:52.100 We're dead.

00:23:52.820 Well, the grizzly has the hump.

00:23:54.220 Well, what if I can't see the hump?

00:23:55.280 What if he's coming at me from a different angle?

00:23:57.120 This is a lot to, to put stock in when it comes to your life and your children's life.

00:24:01.440 So I'm like, okay, I got my bear spray.

00:24:02.760 But then they told me the bit about 10 feet and then don't run and don't scream.

00:24:05.960 Don't let your kids scream.

00:24:07.160 I'm like, we're all dead.

00:24:08.200 And then what I've learned after having been out there for eight years is you need a gun.

00:24:12.520 That is the only thing that will protect you from a charging grizzly bear.

00:24:16.660 Am I wrong?

00:24:18.560 Yeah, you're probably, you're right and you're wrong.

00:24:24.020 Um, let me tell you a quick story about this just to kind of set it up.

00:24:30.380 Like people make all kinds of plans, right?

00:24:34.600 And they got all these things they're going to do and not do.

00:24:38.140 Um, and when this stuff happens, it happens so fast.

00:24:41.200 First off, the odds of it happening are so small.

00:24:43.560 But then when it happens, it happens so fast.

00:24:45.580 All these rehearsed plans unravel.

00:24:47.420 I was in, I was on a Fognac Island in Alaska one time and we had an elk carcass that we

00:24:54.280 had hung up in a tree and we'd gone back to retrieve it.

00:24:57.700 And a big brown bear, you know, brown bears and grizzly bears are, you know, taxonomically

00:25:05.160 the same animal, um, came in really hard on us.

00:25:10.740 And my buddy Giannis had his bear spray on his belt and he had his pistol sitting on

00:25:17.780 his backpack next to him.

00:25:19.360 So he's got bear spray and a pistol and he deliberately set the pistol there for fear

00:25:24.120 of a bear trying to claim this elk carcass.

00:25:26.360 And when this bear came in, you know what he did?

00:25:29.840 He didn't grab the pepper spray.

00:25:31.880 He didn't grab the pistol.

00:25:33.200 He grabbed his trekking pole and swung it like a baseball bat and smoked that bear across

00:25:40.640 the muzzle, um, which turned the bear.

00:25:44.880 Giannis is a brave man.

00:25:46.200 Oh yeah.

00:25:46.940 But point being, here's this whole plan, pepper spray pistol.

00:25:50.540 And then in that moment when everything in your brain comes undone, the thing he thought

00:25:57.260 to do was swing a trekking pole.

00:26:00.240 Right.

00:26:00.680 So it's just that like, I hear so many people always debating what they're going to do and

00:26:05.180 not do.

00:26:05.940 And I, I'm a little bit incredulous having been in a couple of these situations.

00:26:09.720 I wind up being a little bit incredulous about the rehearsal process.

00:26:13.840 Yeah.

00:26:14.340 Yeah.

00:26:14.760 Same.

00:26:15.380 You know, but a way to look at it, like I think a general way to look at it is when you,

00:26:20.160 if you read a lot about black bear attacks, black bear attacks are often predatory, meaning

00:26:25.020 they're very, very rare.

00:26:26.600 Um, most people in America live within a couple hours drive of a black bear.

00:26:31.160 You know, we got, they're all over.

00:26:33.700 They don't really mess with people, but it's, if they do, it's predatory and grizzlies.

00:26:38.640 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

00:26:39.900 Before you look, what do you mean it's predatory?

00:26:41.660 Oh, like when you read about the rare black bear attacks.

00:26:46.280 So in the whole country, maybe, you know, you have a black bear attack or two black bear

00:26:49.960 attacks every year.

00:26:50.760 When a black bear attacks a person, it's generally understood that it's, it's, it's acting as

00:26:55.700 a predator, meaning it's, it's trying to secure food.

00:26:58.360 It's attacking you the same way it would attack a deer fawn, right?

00:27:02.160 It's, it's trying to get food.

00:27:04.020 Why don't I feel better?

00:27:04.760 What makes grizzly bears a different kind of animal is that they have a response to

00:27:10.860 fear, which is aggressive.

00:27:14.400 So a black bear's tendency is there's different critters, like a black bear's tendency when

00:27:18.880 it's spooked is to run a grizzly bear.

00:27:22.900 Sometimes when it gets startled, the switch goes in its head.

00:27:26.780 It's, it, it might run or it might try to jump on and neutralize that threat.

00:27:31.680 So that's why you have so many more grizzly attacks than black bear attacks relative to

00:27:35.820 population is because they have this, this, this habit, this strategy of countering risk

00:27:44.660 by attacking the thing that scared it.

00:27:49.140 So, so many of the attacks we have with grizzly bears, it'll neutralize the threat and then

00:27:55.660 leave and not, and not try to eat the body.

00:27:58.560 Um, and when you do that, when, when you have a grizzly bear, a victim get killed by

00:28:03.660 a grizzly bear that they're not, they haven't been eaten.

00:28:06.560 They'll call it a defensive attack.

00:28:08.580 Yes.

00:28:09.140 Right.

00:28:09.360 Yes.

00:28:09.800 And nowadays, even now with, you know, grizzly bears are federally listed in the lower 48.

00:28:15.160 If there isn't a defensive attack on a person, there's a good chance.

00:28:19.280 They're not even going to kill that bear.

00:28:20.780 Yeah.

00:28:21.440 If it's a predatory attack, they'll kill, they'll, the wildlife officials will kill the

00:28:25.560 bear.

00:28:25.800 If it's a defensive attack, that bear will now, oftentimes they let the bear walk.

00:28:31.600 Um, there was a somewhat astounding to me, but that's, that's policy right now.

00:28:36.700 Yeah.

00:28:36.860 Because there's so few of them that we saw what we didn't see, but we were there in

00:28:40.760 Montana when, uh, this guy got attacked.

00:28:42.820 I think like you, uh, he, you didn't get attacked, but he found himself in between the mama bear

00:28:48.980 and her cubs, the grizzly.

00:28:51.200 And, and it wasn't even his fault.

00:28:53.280 He was riding his bike and unbeknownst to him, the mama had gotten separated from the

00:28:59.140 cubs, which were on the other side of the road.

00:29:01.040 And him just riding his bike by was perceived as enough of a threat that she came for him.

00:29:07.040 And indeed she did cause some serious damage to the guy, but she didn't kill him.

00:29:10.680 He lived.

00:29:11.720 And this brings me.

00:29:12.800 I remember that incident.

00:29:13.460 And it was funny because we had not funny as wrong word.

00:29:17.140 There was a fatality up in the Northwest part of the state where a guy, the best they could

00:29:22.580 reconstruct it, a mountain biker actually hit the bear on a trail and it, and it killed

00:29:27.700 him, but, but again, we're kind of doing a thing that you and I right now, I love this

00:29:32.680 subject, right?

00:29:33.480 We're scaring you and I right now doing a thing that I think is a little bit problematic where

00:29:37.340 we're putting so much emphasis on a thing that's so unlikely to occur.

00:29:43.380 Well, you're helping me work out my fears in the same way, Rob O'Neill helped me work

00:29:47.820 out my fears of sharks in the ocean as he's a Navy SEAL, of course, and said, have you

00:29:52.000 gone swimming in the ocean?

00:29:52.960 I said, yes.

00:29:53.360 He goes, then you've gone swimming with sharks.

00:29:54.940 They're everywhere.

00:29:56.040 They don't attack you.

00:29:57.180 Get over it.

00:29:58.020 You're helping me with my grizzly bear problem right now.

00:30:00.720 I just learned the other day, um, in, in some States and including this state, drowning

00:30:08.880 is the lead cause of death for kids up until the age of 14.

00:30:13.680 Oh my God.

00:30:14.400 So we'll talk a lot about bears, right?

00:30:17.100 But do we talk a lot about drowning?

00:30:19.260 Yeah.

00:30:19.600 Um, you know, hypothermia dying of exposure.

00:30:23.520 You're much more likely to die of exposure than you're likely to die from a wild animal

00:30:27.220 attack, but that's not fun to talk about.

00:30:30.760 So again, it brings up this idea of how people deal with, how people deal with risk and threat

00:30:37.260 in the outdoors is they, they kind of get off on the wrong trail because there's these

00:30:43.760 things that occupy a lot of psychological space for us and big predators occupy psychological

00:30:50.560 space.

00:30:52.020 Um, I like to spearfish.

00:30:54.320 You're much more likely when spearfishing to, to have a shallow water blackout and drown.

00:31:00.840 But where does your mind spend its time?

00:31:03.380 Your mind spends its time on sharks.

00:31:06.540 Or, you know, I've, I've gone fly fishing quite a few times out there in Montana and,

00:31:11.220 um, caught a big snake one time.

00:31:13.340 That was freaky.

00:31:14.180 Now I didn't need to see that.

00:31:16.180 Yeah.

00:31:17.900 It happened last summer.

00:31:18.860 And, uh, of course everybody's like, you didn't catch a snake.

00:31:22.000 I'm like, I know what a snake looks like.

00:31:24.920 It is long.

00:31:25.900 It is black.

00:31:26.720 And it is swirly on the end of my life.

00:31:29.360 You know, I cast it.

00:31:30.240 Oh, wow.

00:31:30.260 It's so weird.

00:31:31.000 Yeah.

00:31:31.300 And it went into like a rocky area and there, it was the first time it had even occurred

00:31:35.220 to me that there were snakes in there.

00:31:37.240 I had my waders on, which I didn't need cause it was warm and I'm just a paranoid person,

00:31:41.580 but I'm becoming less paranoid by the minute.

00:31:43.220 Thanks to you, Steve.

00:31:44.080 Um, less by, by the minute.

00:31:45.540 Before we leave the subject of the bears, I do want to show this clip of you, um, on the

00:31:51.400 meat eater, uh, getting charged by a mama grizzly in a crazy clip.

00:31:57.060 It's not one.

00:31:59.300 You got that, uh, bear spray.

00:32:04.440 Hey, mom.

00:32:06.480 Oh.

00:32:07.380 Yeah.

00:32:09.200 Hey, mom.

00:32:10.540 Hey, mom.

00:32:11.980 Hey.

00:32:12.900 Hey.

00:32:15.420 Hey, mom.

00:32:16.740 Oh, my God.

00:32:18.220 Hey, mom.

00:32:19.040 Hey, mom.

00:32:21.400 Hey, mom.

00:32:22.600 Okay.

00:32:23.200 Okay.

00:32:23.640 What's happening there?

00:32:24.560 Why?

00:32:24.960 Why?

00:32:25.380 Hey, mom.

00:32:25.860 Hey, mom.

00:32:27.460 Uh, that's my buddy, Cal.

00:32:29.400 Hey, mom.

00:32:29.940 Because it was a sow with cubs.

00:32:31.900 Uh, and in that situation, we knew that for quite some time, she was coming down.

00:32:41.220 We're going up a valley and she was coming down the valley and she was, we had already registered

00:32:48.180 that she was pissed.

00:32:49.300 They'll cock their ears back and clack their jaw.

00:32:53.040 You can hear them sometimes.

00:32:54.100 You'll hear them clacking their jaw.

00:32:56.660 Um, so we knew he was coming and we're just yelling at it.

00:32:59.320 Like the, the, the thing there that you want to do is if you're in a group, you cluster up,

00:33:03.720 make a lot of noise, look big, look like something that shouldn't be messed with, look like something

00:33:10.060 that's not going to back down.

00:33:12.120 Um, and then my buddy shot, he's just shooting in front of the bear to try to shoot in front

00:33:18.460 of the bear to try to spook it away.

00:33:20.400 I've actually done that other times where when they're having one coming in and shot in front

00:33:26.100 of it and just surprising how little it, um, even deterred it.

00:33:32.400 But what, what you have there is you would call that a, you know, you call it a false

00:33:37.680 charge because it wasn't an actual charge.

00:33:39.900 And the thing that could happen is if you're jumpy, people that get too excited, like excitable

00:33:45.580 people will sometimes feeling as though they're acting in self-defense.

00:33:51.860 You'll hear of people shooting bears.

00:33:53.900 They think they're shooting them in self-defense.

00:33:56.940 And again, it's an ESA species, endangered species listed.

00:34:00.500 It shouldn't be, it should not be by any measure, but it remains a ESA species and they'll shoot

00:34:08.580 it in self-defense, but then on an investigation, it'll be determined that they were being a

00:34:13.840 little jumpy and that bear hadn't gotten close enough yet to be a real threat.

00:34:19.800 And sometimes you'll hear people get getting prosecuted for that.

00:34:24.400 So, um, in that case, I had a visual, I had a line that I, in my mind, I had a line 15 feet

00:34:32.420 out.

00:34:33.340 And if that bear hit that line, I was going to shoot, shoot the bear.

00:34:36.700 Right.

00:34:36.840 Um, but thankfully it didn't.

00:34:39.800 And had we done that, that, that would have, you know, it could have been a legal issue to

00:34:42.980 you wind up in, but that wasn't in, that was in British Columbia.

00:34:46.480 Um, and they're not an ESA.

00:34:48.720 They're not a Canadian, they're not, they don't have that level of protection, even though

00:34:53.400 it's a different country and they don't have an ESA there.

00:34:56.420 They don't have that level of protection in that particular area.

00:34:59.840 Uh, last time we went whitewater rafting out there, you know, you always go with a guide

00:35:03.120 or at least we always go with a guide and he said in, if in case you see a bear form, uh,

00:35:09.800 a circle, uh, immediately and make sure your guide is in the middle of it.

00:35:16.120 Pretty good advice for the guide.

00:35:17.720 All right, stand by, we'll squeeze in a quick break and more with Steve straight ahead.

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00:35:36.580 So Steve, the Biden administration now is blocking, it's blocking funding for hunting courses at

00:35:48.900 elementary and secondary schools nationwide or, or schools that have an archery program.

00:35:55.100 The administration doesn't deny it.

00:35:57.220 They say, Hey, that's part of our bipartisan safer communities act, which was passed in the

00:36:02.480 wake of mass shootings, which is a very, very different problem. Um, not that hunting is a

00:36:07.900 problem at all, but now they're trying to stop kids. You know, it's like they don't understand how

00:36:12.420 kids live in rural America and how they're raised. Um, they think they put a gun in your hand and

00:36:18.100 teach you how to kill a deer or a bow and arrow. And somehow you're going to turn into the next school

00:36:23.440 shooter. What do you make of this?

00:36:26.140 You know, I followed this story a fair bit. And it's one of those ones that kind of swirls around

00:36:32.300 and generates a level of uncertainty. Uh, I invite people to go do, you know, their own research

00:36:39.700 on this, but my understanding of the issue is that this, this issue took root when they were looking

00:36:46.820 into ways to use some federal funding that would have given teachers, uh, firearms training.

00:36:54.940 And for some reason, I, I, I definitely don't agree with it. For some reason that wound up being

00:37:02.740 blocked. And then as that, as that ruling or got interpreted down the road, it occurred to folks

00:37:14.060 that that, that, that ruling had blocked those fundings for being used in any sort of school

00:37:19.700 program training. Um, and that these funds, which it's, it's, it's not even clear how broadly these

00:37:35.660 funds had been used. They're not tracked well in that level. So I don't think it's that we have a

00:37:41.620 lot of instances where programs that we're getting federal funding are, have been put to rest or

00:37:48.320 stopped, but it's been explained to me by some people who have a level of subject matter expertise

00:37:53.720 that it would be an easily fixed thing and might not get a lot of resistance. So hopefully, I mean,

00:38:01.220 if people contact their lawmakers and let them know that they'd like to have this cleaned up and taken

00:38:07.320 care of, uh, I, I, I do hope that it's something that could get resolved quite easily down the road,

00:38:14.180 but yeah, it caused a lot of, it caused a lot of hand wringing and rightfully so. Um, but, but I think

00:38:22.560 that it's more of a, it seems more of a somewhat complex legal issue than a targeted attack in this

00:38:29.540 case, in this particular case. You, uh, not only hunt, which many in this country would say,

00:38:36.780 oh, that's, that's bad. You're not allowed to hunt. You shouldn't use the guns, but you eat red

00:38:41.000 meat. Oh, you have a show called meat eater for God's sake. What about the planet, Steve? We've

00:38:48.160 been told by the New York times as recently as what it was July that eating meat is hurting the planet

00:38:52.720 and the new sort of Gen Zers. I mean, if I have seen a million clips of them saying the way we're

00:38:59.520 going to save the environment is to obviously stop eating meat. That's a, that's a given that's number

00:39:04.220 one. So what do you make of this, this push by some on the young side to stop and the New York

00:39:08.600 times to stop eating meat? Well, I think in that case, what, what they're talking about in that case

00:39:14.940 is agricultural production. So, you know, in my house, um, in my house, we eat wild game. So it's

00:39:25.360 just a completely, it's just a different system. It's a completely different system. I'll point out

00:39:30.080 that, uh, it's not a lifestyle that everyone could participate if they wanted to. They certainly

00:39:37.320 don't want to, um, in New Jersey, California, less than 1% of the population chooses to hunt.

00:39:43.700 So we're not at risk of doing this, but if every American went out and killed a deer tomorrow,

00:39:49.200 I think that we would have a deficit of about 250 million deer. Um, so it's, it's not a lifestyle

00:39:56.680 that everyone's going to engage in and they don't want to engage in it. Uh, I'm a, I'm a firm

00:40:05.280 supporter of agriculture. Uh, if you look at, in my view as an environmentalist, when I look

00:40:14.460 at the landscape, I think that farms and ranches provide a lot better wildlife habitat than do

00:40:23.840 subdivisions and shopping malls. So in my opinion, a great environmental play is to support farmers

00:40:34.000 and ranchers and support ways for them to be able to keep land in production and that to warrant the

00:40:42.180 ownership of land and the stewardship of land. Because what happens when you take away the ability,

00:40:50.580 the economic ability to keep land in agricultural production generally isn't good for the land.

00:40:57.640 Um, so I don't see this as a, as an issue. If it somehow came to it, I'm not a vigilante,

00:41:05.320 but if it somehow came to it in some dystopian future in which it was forbidden that I eat deer meat

00:41:14.540 and there was plenty of deer on the landscape, uh, I don't, I, I don't believe I would change my

00:41:21.580 habits. So there's a lot of noise about it all the time, but I just feel that it's one of those

00:41:28.060 things that just sits outside of my personal reality. And if a neighbor chooses to be vegan,

00:41:35.620 I, I, I don't think any differently about them. Um, the numbers, I'll let them eat what they want

00:41:41.960 and I'll eat what I want. The number of vegans is, is, is going way down. I think it's, uh, under

00:41:46.160 1% now on a national basis. Yeah. So fewer, far fewer vegans out there than there are, uh, meat

00:41:53.480 eaters. Let's talk about, I didn't know it was going down. I'm somehow happy to hear it's going down,

00:41:58.660 but I don't, it's just not a, I don't judge. I don't view vegans as like, uh, uh, really I don't

00:42:06.960 view them as a threat if it's just a personal choice. Literally no one does. Literally nobody

00:42:13.100 sees a vegan as a threat. Okay. That's funny. You're right. You gotta, you gotta give us some

00:42:19.060 tips now for those of us who have not been as active as you have in instilling love of the outdoors in

00:42:24.580 our kids. Like what are some fun things we can do with our kids to sort of start getting this love

00:42:30.980 going short of, you know, buying a tent and trying to figure out how to pitch it and avoid the bears.

00:42:40.040 There's a, there's a term called biophilia and it was popularized by a scientist and writer named

00:42:51.520 EO Wilson. Um, biophilia is this idea that humans have an innate desire to connect with other life

00:42:58.140 forms. I think that it's absolutely true when applied to kids. When my kids were very, very young,

00:43:08.160 I mean, before they could walk, I would make a habit of, of getting them in situations where they're like

00:43:16.440 with creatures. We would just go out and roll rotten logs over and roll rocks over to find the,

00:43:26.360 the beetles and grubs and worms that were there. Or we take a little net, a little beach seine or a dip

00:43:32.420 net and go to shorelines and creeks and ponds anywhere, anywhere. Anyone lives close to this stuff.

00:43:39.180 Once they learned to look for it. And we would just find things, aquatic insects, crayfish,

00:43:46.720 and, and I'd put them in their hands and I'd teach them that it's nothing to be afraid of.

00:43:53.140 There's nothing gross in nature. There's nothing icky in nature. It's beauty. These things are

00:44:00.640 beautiful to behold. They're beautiful and to engage with. And that was probably looking back on it,

00:44:06.900 one of the most effective and constructive things that I did as a parent was teaching from early on

00:44:13.700 to, to rule out this idea of grossness, that the slimy icky stuff is actually beautiful.

00:44:22.780 Um, and that I realized now that created in my kids a desire to go toward nature instead of be

00:44:33.120 repulsed and pulled back from nature. Um, I'm, I'm just lamenting the fact that no one did that for

00:44:40.940 me. I wish, I wish somebody had done that. Perhaps I would not feel that all that stuff is so

00:44:46.180 disgustingly icky. I like you. I've read that you always fancied yourself a cowboy. I always wanted

00:44:52.340 to be a cowgirl growing up. It was my number one dream in life. Got the Olin Mills picture of me and my

00:44:58.580 never not worn cowgirl outfit. You can't see it in the picture, but I had my, my guns on the side of

00:45:05.860 my little outfit. And I know you were the same. Um, I guess it's too late. Maybe it's too late.

00:45:12.440 Am I going to have to put the icky things in my own hand at this age, even though my kids are already

00:45:18.180 13 and there's you look at young Steve. So cute with it. Is it a horse? I can't tell.

00:45:23.740 Oh yeah. Yeah. It was, we were out, uh, my older, my older brother was the outfitter and, uh, he was

00:45:31.900 a elk guy in Colorado. And so that was out riding around with him when I was a little kid. So fun.

00:45:38.120 Yeah. So anyway, what you're telling me is I'm going to need to get dirty. I think so. You know,

00:45:43.720 I think so. It's, it's like I said, I've, I've been a parent for 13 years and, and we've done a lot,

00:45:51.540 you know, I've put my kids through quite a bit. I've made them uncomfortable a lot. I've taken them

00:45:57.120 a lot of places. They've had a lot of experiences dealing with risk and dealing with fear. And that

00:46:04.240 time that we spent just, you know, it sounds so funny and like, like, uh, like I'm just saying it

00:46:13.300 to, to make a point, but, but it's true. That time we spent with worms and grubs and bugs and crayfish

00:46:20.200 created in them such a, um, such an eagerness to explore and experience nature. And the other tip,

00:46:29.520 like if I was going to give, just to reiterate one I made earlier, if you're a parent, don't be shy

00:46:34.660 about exercising the authority you have in the household. We do not, we're going camping this

00:46:41.040 weekend. We did not ask if they want to go. We're going, um, we didn't make it a family conversation.

00:46:48.560 We know that that's best. We're in charge. That's what we're going to do. And we're never,

00:46:54.640 it's just on Friday night, that's where we're going. And I know that it will happen. And I know

00:47:00.780 that it's valuable that we go do it. And I know they'll be glad we went and did it. So don't be shy

00:47:06.080 about making a plan and sticking with it and not.

00:47:11.320 What, what about people like me who don't have this life experience? Like I'd feel better if

00:47:15.660 you could come with us. Are you ever on the East Coast?

00:47:18.400 I'll take you guys camping anytime. I promise.

00:47:20.900 Maybe Abby will just come. I feel like Abby, Abby, could you just do it with us? You could do it.

00:47:25.300 She can do it all. She's been doing it since she was a kid like you and your kids.

00:47:28.880 This is so fascinating, Stephen. It's a good reminder. It's a good reminder just to sort of

00:47:32.520 nurture that strain that's in, I believe it's biologically baked into all of us to connect with nature.

00:47:38.100 I believe that it is. I believe that it is. And that makes me happy to think about.

00:47:42.380 Well, thank you for spending your life trying to remind us of that lesson through your books,

00:47:46.880 your TV show, your show. It's like, it's a huge success. Everything you touch turns to gold and

00:47:51.440 you can get his cookbook too. So once you catch that game, Steve will actually show you how to

00:47:56.580 cook it up in a tasty way. So nice to meet you. Thanks for coming on.

00:48:00.100 Hey, thank you. It was great to talk about this stuff. I appreciate it.

00:48:03.020 All right. And don't forget the new book is called Catch a Crayfish, Count the Stars.

00:48:06.760 Sounds like a lovely way to spend a Saturday. Does it not? And by the way, Steve's also said

00:48:11.660 many times you can, you can pitch a tent on in your backyard. You know, you don't actually have

00:48:15.100 to go anywhere. Maybe for people like me who are just taking baby steps into it. That's the safest

00:48:19.480 way to start until I get back together with Abigail, uh, who's we both live in Connecticut now.

00:48:25.580 She's, you can bring the girls. We can do it all together. Uh, and remember folks, you can find the

00:48:30.380 Megan Kelly show live on Sirius XM triumph channel one 11 every weekday at noon East and the full

00:48:36.700 video show and clips by subscribing to our YouTube channel. That's youtube.com slash Megan Kelly.

00:48:41.500 If you prefer an audio podcast, follow download on Apple, Spotify, Pandora, Stitcher,

00:48:47.900 or wherever you get your podcasts for free.

00:48:52.920 My next guest is here to share her work surrounding a hugely important topic for parents,

00:48:59.240 toxic achievement culture. She gives us an inside look at what's happening to our kids today

00:49:05.480 who are under intense pressure from all corners to achieve, be a success, be a winner, not just in

00:49:14.440 school, but in extracurricular activities. And even now in social media and how this is vastly,

00:49:21.120 vastly impacting their mental health, her tips and tricks for parents to confront these challenges,

00:49:26.160 hugely important for everyone to digest happens to be a friend of mine as well. Her name is Jennifer

00:49:30.480 Wallace. She's an award winning journalist and she details all of this in her new book. Never enough

00:49:37.680 when achievement culture becomes toxic and what we can do about it. Jenny. So great to see you. Thanks

00:49:44.700 for coming on and welcome to the show. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. It's nice to see you too, Megan.

00:49:49.560 I want to start with this. I remember cause our boys were at the same school together and our girls

00:49:54.760 were too. I mean, my daughter and yours, but I remember seeing you because you have a, um, your

00:49:59.740 eldest child is a boy who's older than our little guys and, um, well, whatever. And then, then our

00:50:05.560 friends who are our sons who are friends and your boy was sort of the pointy end of the spear going

00:50:10.500 like up into the more competitive grades while our other boys were in the younger grades. And I remember

00:50:16.020 you saying one morning about like the amount of homework they were being given or the schedules that

00:50:20.880 they were looking at that year. Jeez, it's not as if they're facing some sort of a national depression

00:50:25.440 crisis. Like you were, you were already noticing this six, seven year, eight years ago. So when I

00:50:33.320 heard you wrote this book, I'm like, she came by this very honestly. I know you've been paying attention

00:50:38.060 to this and you, like I am in the midst, you and I both are in the midst of this toxic culture, but it's

00:50:44.520 not just people who've got a little dough or who are in the New York city privates. Um, some middle

00:50:50.320 class families are dealing with upper middle class societies doing this to our kids. So just

00:50:54.480 outline the scope of the issue for us. Oh, you are absolutely right. I do come by this. Honestly,

00:51:00.140 I've been noticing since my kids were little and my oldest one is now, um, in going into his senior

00:51:07.640 year, uh, of, of high school. But I have been noticing, uh, over the years, how different my childhood,

00:51:15.160 my, my child's childhood was from my own. So I, you know, I've been noticing how my weekends

00:51:20.140 were, you know, fractured. My husband was going in one direction. I was going in another direction.

00:51:25.840 Homework felt so much heavier. Was he going into advanced math? Was he not going into advanced math?

00:51:31.640 What would that mean for him, for his high school career, for college, his life in the future? So,

00:51:38.460 you know, my parents, when I was growing up, I don't think they were sleepless or overthinking,

00:51:44.460 you know, the classes I took, the activities I, I, they signed me up for. And so I have been

00:51:50.380 wondering all these years, why my children's childhood is so different from my own. And so

00:51:56.300 for the last four years, I've been digging into it. Okay. But how could your parents not have been

00:52:01.000 overly involved when you wound up at Harvard? My parents paid absolutely no attention to me and I

00:52:05.640 wound up at Syracuse, which makes sense to me. My parents. So here's, okay. Here's what I would say

00:52:11.420 is the difference. For my parents, achievement was important, but it was just one facet of my life.

00:52:18.560 Just as important was my sleep, my extracurricular activities, my relationship with my family,

00:52:26.620 my extended family, my relationship with my friends. So achievement mattered, but it didn't

00:52:31.720 define me and it didn't define my childhood the way it does so many kids today.

00:52:36.920 Hmm. How did this happen to us? Because I think every parent out there listening knows exactly what

00:52:42.460 we're talking about. When we talk about this toxic culture of achievement, how did we get here? How

00:52:46.660 did we get from our childhoods, which were normal and we played outside and we didn't have parents

00:52:50.580 who's like every thought was of our academic achievement to today? Yeah. So when, when I was

00:52:57.220 growing up and we're about the same age, um, in the seventies and early eighties, life was generally more

00:53:02.860 affordable. Housing was more affordable. Healthcare was more affordable. Higher education was more

00:53:09.020 affordable. Food was more affordable. There was slack in the system. Parents could be relatively assured

00:53:15.400 that even with some setbacks, even, you know, with mistakes and bad grades, that a child could

00:53:22.740 generally replicate their upbringing, if not do even better. I mean, the American dream, right? Has

00:53:28.440 always been to do better than your parents, but parents today face a different economic reality.

00:53:34.400 We are seeing the first generation that is not doing as well as their parents. Um, we are feeling

00:53:40.580 the, the deep inequity that's been ushered in over the last several decades, the crush of the middle

00:53:46.940 class, the hyper competition that's been ushered in with globalization. And we are absorbing these

00:53:55.080 macroeconomic forces and in the words of researchers becoming social conduits, meaning we are passing

00:54:02.400 these anxiety and fears onto our kids, not to hurt them, but in the hopes that we can prepare them

00:54:09.660 for a competitive and uncertain future. I mean, think about it, the jobs that will be available to

00:54:16.720 our boys. And when they graduate college, like we don't know what half of those jobs are. And now AI is

00:54:22.200 on the scene and is that going to take, you know, what is that going to do to careers? So parents

00:54:26.940 are facing very uncertain times. This is not to say parents should be let off the hook and anything

00:54:34.220 goes. This is just to say, it's time to stop pointing the finger, blaming parents, personalizing

00:54:41.100 this achievement pressure, and instead take a minute to step back and look at it in the larger context.

00:54:47.000 This is, these pressures are bigger than any one family, any one school, any one community.

00:54:52.740 Mm-hmm. You write about the principle of scarcity, and we are biologically programmed to recognize

00:54:58.560 scarcity and work against it, work to protect ourselves and our children against it. And that's

00:55:04.220 baked into what you just said, as well as, let's face it, the available college spots for these high

00:55:12.580 achieving kids or what you hope will be a high achieving kid, not just at the top, top 10 or

00:55:17.240 the Ivy Leagues, but just the whole first and even large portions of the second tier are near impossible

00:55:23.240 to get into. And we know it in a way that it wasn't even 20, 25 years ago.

00:55:28.500 Let's also talk about, you know, how expensive public schools are, education in general. And so many

00:55:33.920 of the parents that I interviewed for this book were solidly middle class, and they were stressed.

00:55:38.560 They wanted their kids to get scholarships so that they could afford college for their kids.

00:55:43.400 So we're not even talking about, like you said, Harvard, Yale. We're not even talking about the

00:55:48.340 top 20 to 30 schools. We're talking about helping our kids get an education, being able to afford it.

00:55:54.620 There's a lot of stress around that today.

00:55:57.160 But I mean, just to put people's minds at ease, your child's not getting into Harvard, Yale or Princeton.

00:56:01.940 They're not getting it. Okay. Just know that going, stop ruining their childhoods.

00:56:05.760 They're not getting in. Like you go through the numbers. It's not, and it's not just those three.

00:56:10.420 They're not getting into any of the top tier. Just accept it now and stop ruining your kids' upbringing.

00:56:16.340 And you know what I say to my kids, my son who's, you know, applying to college now this year.

00:56:21.480 I said to him, do your best, go for it, but know that it's kind of a lottery at this point.

00:56:27.520 I mean, you're, this is not an indictment of who you are.

00:56:30.160 And I hope that that brings a little bit of ease to the situation. Also the idea as Frank

00:56:37.100 Bruni wrote in his book, where you go is not who you'll be. So I think having those conversations

00:56:43.040 with our kids talking about just the numbers, it's a lottery. I mean, and I was not willing and

00:56:48.480 my husband was not willing to live our family life, to get our kids into Harvard, which is now

00:56:55.500 what a three or 4% acceptance rate. I wasn't willing to do that.

00:56:58.880 They're all there. The most generous number I saw was Georgetown, which is 12% get in,

00:57:03.280 but every other, I mean, they're all 3%, 4%, 5%. I mean, it's just the odds of your child getting

00:57:09.100 into one of these schools. And at what cost? You want to ruin year zero through 18 so that they can

00:57:14.120 then go and face incredible anxiety and pressure from 18 to 22? Why? Why? I know that I may be the

00:57:22.120 exception, Jenny, but I love to remind people I did go to Syracuse. Then I went to Albany Law School,

00:57:28.360 which to be charitable to Albany is a middling law school. It's definitely like third tier

00:57:34.160 at best. And I didn't even go to the communications program at Syracuse, which is a great school. I

00:57:38.560 went poli sci, which is fine, but I'm just saying you, and I guarantee you, I make more money than

00:57:44.660 virtually anybody in my town. It's possible. You can get ahead. You can have a great life. You can have

00:57:49.780 a great marriage. You can, if money's your goal of success, you can do it by going to a middling

00:57:54.820 school. It's just, I think much more relates to number one, I was a happy child. I had a family

00:58:01.200 that loved me and made me feel whole. And number two, I spent time thinking what personality traits

00:58:08.700 do I have that will align with the potential professions in front of me? So I chose wisely

00:58:16.320 that that was the most important. Those two things were the two most important things. You write about

00:58:21.140 this in the book about how you want your kid to have a successful life, whether it's financial

00:58:26.040 or, you know, friendships and so on. Spend time loving on them. Spend time reinforcing that you

00:58:34.160 see them as a whole person, not just as their GPA. Exactly right. As you point out with your upbringing,

00:58:44.260 there's a social psychologist at Brown, Gregory Elliott, and he just says so many wise things. And one of

00:58:50.920 the things he wrote was what gets in early gets in deep. And that to me was so profound. And so I

00:59:01.660 wanted to make sure that, you know, achievement was not going to get into the way of my connection

00:59:07.620 with my kids. And I think what you pointed out were two really strong things. So one is your home

00:59:14.280 was a place where you felt valued unconditionally. And what did that do that made you reach for things?

00:59:20.900 You weren't likely afraid of setbacks because it was not an indictment of your worth. This was just

00:59:27.020 part of the course. And the other thing you talk about is knowing your strengths. And I write about

00:59:33.220 that a lot in the book that this is another great quote that I got from Rick Weisbord, who's at

00:59:39.140 Making Caring Common up in Boston. And he says, the self becomes stronger, less by being praised than by

00:59:47.700 being known. A lot of the kids that I knew that I interviewed for this book said praised by their

00:59:53.840 parents was just another source of pressure. And what he would Rick Weisbord was telling me was that

01:00:00.220 the self becomes stronger when we're known for who we are deep at our core, away from our achievements.

01:00:07.900 What are our strengths? Are we tenacious? Or do we have a great sense of humor? Do we have a really

01:00:13.300 strong work ethic? These are things that we can see about our kids and we can foster. And those are

01:00:20.640 the very things actually that are going to lead to their success and help them to overcome any

01:00:25.620 setbacks. So I think your your two points were very astute. I laughed about it many times. My parents

01:00:32.560 would always say, like, you don't really see that seem that special so far. But, you know, we're open

01:00:38.300 minded to specialness if it should present itself. And that was fine with me. I was like, great. Okay,

01:00:43.040 perfect. They used to insult my looks. They didn't say you're ugly. They just said, she's going to be with

01:00:47.440 us for a long time. I wasn't offended, Jenny. I didn't care. I'm like, oh, I love my mom and dad. Great.

01:00:53.580 We're going to be together. We're the opposite of all that today. Like, junior can do no wrong. Junior's

01:00:59.480 brilliant. Junior's gorgeous. Junior's. And like, all this messaging, we want, you know, positivity, I guess.

01:01:05.300 But we may be inadvertently setting them up for a standard that is unattainable.

01:01:14.380 I think that's exactly right. And I think, like you said, I think knowing our kids for who they are makes them

01:01:20.960 feel so valued. It gives them like a protective shield against setbacks. And, you know, a lot of kids are really

01:01:29.360 crumbling under setbacks today. Now, you also you have a lot of great quotes in the book. And one of them is, though,

01:01:34.500 about the negative voice. So you do have to be careful with criticism on the kids, especially when

01:01:39.660 it comes to academics and achievement. And this is one I highlighted. When you criticize a child,

01:01:45.800 they don't necessarily stop loving you, psychologists say. They stop loving themselves.

01:01:51.740 Oh, my God. That's such a good one.

01:01:54.940 I know. So how do we get around it, right? Because as parents, we do have to set standards.

01:02:01.200 That's how our kids know that we're invested in them, that we love them. And so what the

01:02:06.440 psychologists I interviewed talked about was being very clear about separating the deed from

01:02:13.260 the doer. So what does that mean? That means, you know, your son comes home with a bad grade on his

01:02:20.640 math test and you knew he was goofing off this week and not putting any effort. And so you might say,

01:02:26.940 I'm curious, you know, instead of getting furious, get curious. You know, I wonder why you got that

01:02:32.540 grade. What do you think it is? Why are you disappointed by it? What could you do better

01:02:36.820 next time? So instead of saying to them, you're so lazy or whatever, whatever a tired parent might

01:02:42.600 say, just out of frustration in the moment to separate the deed from the doer, it means to our

01:02:48.900 it's it's saying to our kid, you are not the failure. How you studied for that test wasn't the

01:02:53.800 greatest, but you're still great. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I mean, we need to pay

01:02:58.620 attention to this because we've talked many times on the show about, you know, sort of these things

01:03:03.900 that don't set a child up for success in life, whether it's an alcoholic parent or divorce, you

01:03:11.580 know, these terrible risks that happen to young children. This is one of them. You went back and

01:03:16.900 looked at this. I think this is from the first chapter of the book that like high achievers, if you went to

01:03:22.660 a high achieving sort of high school or had an upbringing that was focused on high achievement,

01:03:27.480 that's now a risk factor for later consequences in life, including alcoholism, addiction,

01:03:35.840 anxiety, depression. That's right. I wrote about this in 2019. It's it's in many ways the basis of

01:03:43.060 the book. Two national policy reports, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and the National Academies

01:03:49.380 of Sciences. These are two very credible reports that our our government uses to make policy. And

01:03:57.600 they named these kids attending what researchers call high achieving schools. Those are, as you said,

01:04:06.060 public and private schools all around the country, not just on the coasts. I, you know, researchers saw

01:04:11.860 this everywhere. It was the excessive pressure to achieve that was putting them at risk, meaning that

01:04:19.440 they were two to six times more likely to suffer from clinical levels of anxiety, depression, substance

01:04:27.780 abuse disorder than the average American teen. And it doesn't mean that it's just during these high

01:04:34.200 school years that they are at risk. What the researchers have done was they followed these kids over time

01:04:39.680 and they saw that the patterns of coping, the patterns of thinking that what gets in early gets in deep

01:04:46.440 stayed with these kids through college and into their 30s. These kids in their early 30s were more likely to

01:04:54.340 to say they were they suffered from substance abuse disorder than their their peers who attended less

01:05:02.120 competitive schools.

01:05:03.380 And yet one of the most interesting things of the book to me was you pointed out, I think it was also

01:05:09.080 a Pew study, that they they went and surveyed people. I think it was 10 years after they graduated from

01:05:14.820 various colleges, state universities, also the Ivies. And what did they find?

01:05:20.640 Yeah, that's exactly right. So it was Gallup and Purdue and they conducted the largest study. There was also

01:05:26.900 Megan, a Pew study there in that chapter, too. But I think the one you're referencing is they studied

01:05:32.140 30,000 college graduates and they wanted to see, was it a large public university? Was it a small

01:05:38.420 private college? Did the rank of the school matter for several factors in a kid's 20s and early 30s?

01:05:47.240 And they looked at well-being connection. Did they feel a sense of belonging in their community? Did they

01:05:53.380 enjoy career success? Did they find meaning in their work? And what they what the researchers found was that

01:05:59.040 it didn't matter if the school was public, private, highly ranked or not highly ranked. It hardly mattered

01:06:07.300 at all. What mattered, though, was the experience that that student had on campus. Did they have a professor

01:06:16.480 who made learning fun, who knew them individually, who encouraged them to pursue their interests? Did they have a

01:06:24.480 multi multi multi-semester internship or project where they were able to use what they were learning and add value in that way?

01:06:32.860 Were they involved in extracurricular activities on campus? And did they feel that sense of belonging on campus? In other words,

01:06:41.100 did they feel like they matter on that campus? Did they feel valued? And did they feel like they were adding value?

01:06:49.080 Those were the critical ingredients fit over rank. Did the child have a good fit at school? And so with

01:06:56.560 my senior, we talk about fit and how important fit is over rank. We don't even talk about ranks,

01:07:03.500 to be honest. We don't bring in and I won't name the the the magazine that does the rankings,

01:07:10.340 which I also rip apart a bit in the book. Evil. No one should. It is. I mean,

01:07:17.740 I have to say, if there's a bad guy, that's one of the bad guys. I mean, they are really exploiting

01:07:24.020 parents' fears, students' fears. You know, I get into how those rankings are put together

01:07:31.340 and they are, let's just say, misleading at best. You know, 20, something like 22% of their

01:07:38.900 rankings of a college are how many kids graduate. Yes, that makes sense, right? You want to be able to

01:07:45.660 have a school where the students graduate. But when you're looking at a school like Penn State,

01:07:50.360 whose mission is to graduate as many kids, as many students as possible, they are taking in people

01:07:57.000 from all different socioeconomic groups, all different backgrounds, first gen students.

01:08:01.580 So they are naturally going to have more of a dropout rate than maybe a Harvard or Yale, which is,

01:08:07.040 you know, picking the creme de la creme. So so anyway, there are lots of other reasons why these

01:08:12.680 rankings don't work. But the most important, I think, to explain for your child is that rank has

01:08:20.340 a really negligible effect. And we should be looking at fit. And I actually made my son read

01:08:26.080 that section before we went to go look at colleges. Well, and the other thing people need to remember

01:08:30.180 is when you look at, you know, you look past high school and college, those fade into the background

01:08:36.560 very quickly. Once you're out, you know, it's only that first year or two out of college that people

01:08:41.380 are even really asking you about your college education or where you went to school.

01:08:45.740 What will matter for the rest of your life is your EQ and your sense of self and your ability

01:08:51.520 to interact with other people well and project a sense of confidence and ease. You got to work

01:08:57.720 on that stuff. You better be working on that stuff. That's way more important net net than the name

01:09:03.080 of the school your kid winds up at. That's exactly right. I mean, when I look and I point out with

01:09:09.420 to my children, some of my most successful friends, and I mean, successful, both socially

01:09:15.700 with their families and their friends, but also career wise, they went to schools that I can't

01:09:20.700 even pronounce. One of them was in Ohio. It was a small liberal arts school. She was she recently

01:09:26.220 passed away. But she was one of my very most successful friends. And it had nothing to do with

01:09:32.460 the brand name of her school. But she did fit on that campus. She had internships that were

01:09:38.620 valuable to her. She felt valued on that campus. And she had the most extraordinary social skills

01:09:45.140 that like you said, that success. You write about and you're not blaming parents in this book. It's a

01:09:51.120 very honest, you know, you talk about your own parenting mistakes and getting drawn into this

01:09:56.080 cauldron, too. But you do write about what like what's making parents do this. And in part, it's this

01:10:01.280 need for status. And you write about how to our brains status matters. And it doesn't just have

01:10:08.280 to be the college our kids go to. It could be your son scoring the winner winning soccer goal like

01:10:13.920 we get these dopamine hits. And you have to be mindful of that so that you don't get your dopamine

01:10:20.040 hit off of your kids A's and your kids college.

01:10:24.680 That's exactly right. I was so fascinated to find out that when we because we are wired for status,

01:10:32.780 when we feel a status descent, we get this neurochemical like negative cocktail that actually

01:10:41.440 causes some pain in the brain. And what we do sometimes if we're unaware is that we will do things

01:10:48.060 that are not ultimately to our advantage in order to just squash that feeling like yelling at a coach

01:10:54.240 or calling up a teacher and screaming at them for the grade your kid got. That's not helpful.

01:10:59.620 And while we might be wired for status, we don't have we're not victims of it. We can be aware of it.

01:11:06.120 We can say to ourselves, that's my status talking. And we can give ourselves the space to really have

01:11:11.240 control over how we act on those primal impulses. One of the examples I use in the book is a researcher

01:11:19.760 from Michigan describes it as the burning bagel principle. So when you know, our kid doesn't get

01:11:25.820 into Michigan, and we see that rejection letter, you know, it feels like a fire alarm is going off in

01:11:31.720 our heads. That was something that was given to us by evolution, because we we are we are wired for

01:11:37.780 negativity bias when we were out, you know, unhoused. If if something bad was happening in our

01:11:44.340 environment, it could have meant life or death. But that Michigan letter does not mean life or

01:11:50.300 death. It's just a bagel burning. It doesn't mean the house is is is on fire. When that fire alarm is

01:11:57.600 going off. Just think about the bagel burning. And you think about the pressures that these kids

01:12:02.640 are under today. Even I mean, this is something to worry about, even if it's not you, even if you read

01:12:08.240 Jenny's book, even if you're like me, like Syracuse is fine, you know, relax. It's society that's

01:12:14.300 doing it to them. It's the school that's doing it's their peers. And I know you did something

01:12:19.220 extraordinary where you I think you got a researcher at Harvard to help you and surveyed

01:12:24.200 thousands of parents and asked, you know, how all this is affecting them and whether they're

01:12:29.480 falling prey to this. And correct me if I'm wrong, but something like over 80 percent of them said

01:12:34.660 it's other parents who are doing it, like who are creating it. And then we get stirred in.

01:12:39.760 Exactly right. I so before I started researching this book, I wanted to make sure that this wasn't

01:12:47.140 just an issue that was being felt on the coast. I wanted to know, is this achievement pressure

01:12:52.040 being felt everywhere? So I I enlisted this researcher at Harvard and we created this survey

01:12:57.520 to get to, you know, the anxieties that parents might be feeling today. And the researcher said to

01:13:02.740 me, OK, we need a sample size of a thousand in order to see patterns. But within a few days, over

01:13:08.600 6,500 parents around the country had filled it out, including parents in Alaska who I interviewed

01:13:14.660 for the book. And what you you said was 83 percent of parents reported that other parents in their

01:13:23.260 community judge them by judge parents by their children's academic success. I also I have a couple

01:13:30.480 I pulled out for you. OK, I asked parents on it on a how much they agreed or disagreed with

01:13:37.280 this statement. I feel responsible for my children's achievement and success. Seventy five

01:13:44.800 percent of parents agreed with that statement. But then you also look at this number. I asked

01:13:50.760 them how much they agreed or disagreed with the statement. I wish today's childhood was less

01:13:56.780 stressful for my kids. Eighty seven percent of parents agreed with that statement. Right. So

01:14:02.860 parents feel caught. We feel caught. We want to enjoy our kids. We want to enjoy these short 18

01:14:09.960 years. They certainly feel short once you start sleeping through the night. But and we want to

01:14:15.360 have those feelings. We want to enjoy our kids. We want to build these kind of connections, by the way,

01:14:20.380 that will last a lifetime. I mean, think about what the relationship you are building with your child

01:14:26.440 as an adolescent, as an adolescent, as a teen is setting the blueprint for your future with your

01:14:32.820 child. Do you want your child? Do you want a relationship in the long term? If you do, then you really

01:14:38.880 need to focus on that connection, connection over achievement, connection with that. Right. So where you

01:14:45.100 write about how is something as simple as making your child feel like you are excited to see him or her

01:14:53.280 when they enter the room writing about how it treat him like it's a new puppy at least once a day when

01:14:58.420 you see your kid little thing and physical touch like affection. That's right. Affection. So, you

01:15:06.000 know, it's a lot of parents said to me, well, my teen doesn't want me to be affectionate with them

01:15:11.660 anymore. And I said, I understand that. So I said, let me give you advice that I got from a couple of

01:15:16.700 other parents. One mother gives her teenage daughter manicures so that she can rub the hand

01:15:24.000 with lotion. She can sort of have that affection. Another mother I spoke to talked about how she gives

01:15:30.380 her sons, you know, helps him with his acne. She gives them facials so that, you know, she can touch

01:15:35.940 them. There are ways, there are creative ways we can be affectionate with our kids. And our teens actually do

01:15:42.060 crave that. Being affectionate with our kids helps to regulate them. It's a stress response.

01:15:47.320 I think about this a lot because think about, you know, you in your marriage, right? How often you and

01:15:52.360 your husband hug or hold hands or just sit next to each other on the couch and sort of, you know,

01:15:57.560 cuddle a little bit. That is great. I mean, that stuff's important to your well-being. It's an endorphin.

01:16:04.020 And we give that to our children nonstop when they're babies and they're toddlers. And then they get to be

01:16:10.080 able to walk and we do it a little less. And then as they just start aging, it just becomes less and

01:16:14.560 less. But, you know, you can, like we go to church every Sunday. I always have my arms around my kids

01:16:19.560 or we hold hands and they let me do it. Because listen, at this point, adolescents especially,

01:16:24.500 they don't have boyfriends. They don't have girlfriends. They only have us. They're not

01:16:28.420 holding hands with their brothers and sister. So it's like, I think they need it. And you can get away

01:16:33.800 with it. You know, they'll let you like put your arm around their back or hold their hand here or

01:16:38.340 they're probably less so when they're 17, 18. But so far, I'm getting away with it.

01:16:42.280 I'm still getting away with it. Not as much with my 17 year old. But I will say I great advice I got

01:16:47.960 from a researcher who studies teens was and I asked her this when my oldest was becoming a teenager.

01:16:53.480 I said, you know, I'm reading all this stuff about teenagers and like, oh, my God, they're going to

01:16:57.920 separate from me. And do they really turn overnight against you? And she said, no, that's a myth.

01:17:02.700 She said, teenagers are, you know, yes, they are programmed to be pulling away to building their

01:17:09.960 own individual selves. But it does not mean the parent should be pulling away too. So we have the

01:17:17.340 way we've gotten around this in our home, my husband, who you know, Megan, he now issues NOFA's and

01:17:24.240 OFA's. NOFA's are non optional family activities. So once a week, we issue a NOFA and he knocks on the

01:17:32.600 bedroom door and he's like, it's a NOFA time. And the NOFA time could be a family movie. It could be,

01:17:38.720 you know, they're really into chess right now. I don't know. All these teenagers and adolescents

01:17:42.500 are super into chess right now or a board game or make baking cookies. But he creates these NOFA's.

01:17:49.460 And so that's a way of of sort of knocking on that door, even when the teens might be trying to

01:17:56.200 separate doesn't mean we should be separating too.

01:17:58.540 Okay. The husband, Peter Wallace is hilarious. He's got this big, important job, but he takes

01:18:04.000 the time to do things like this. During the pandemic, we were all at the same school. And

01:18:07.980 of course, that March and April and May, none of us knew it was going to happen. Are we going to go

01:18:12.700 back to school? How long is this thing? And he took the time to create a fake letter on April Fool's

01:18:18.980 Day. Do you remember this? Telling all the kids that because they'd been out for the month of March or

01:18:25.000 behalf of it, the school had decided they were all going to have to go to summer school

01:18:29.080 to make up the time. He put it on like the fake school letterhead and then was kind enough to

01:18:35.200 reach out to the other parents and say, I'm doing this to my kids. If you want me to give it to you,

01:18:39.040 here it is. We still talk about it to this day, Jenny. It was amazing.

01:18:43.480 Oh my God. I totally forgot about that. I have to pull that letter out. That's funny.

01:18:47.540 It was legit. And it gave us a lot of laughs after the initial tears that came when they saw

01:18:53.860 the fake, fake bad news. All right. Stand by on that note. We'll take a quick break. We'll come back.

01:19:00.540 Much, much more to discuss. I find this discussion absolutely fascinating. And Jenny's got a lot of

01:19:05.120 additional helpful tips for parents out there struggling.

01:19:07.940 Jenny, when I was living in New York, they used to have these massive parental seminars

01:19:16.260 for all the parents of kids who are in the independent school system, which is a nice

01:19:20.460 way of saying private schools. And I went to one of them and they had a couple of students from

01:19:25.020 basically every private school in New York. I mean, these are the most privileged kids

01:19:27.940 in the United States. And one of them, it was a kid who I think he was maybe a sophomore in high

01:19:34.640 school. He had this crazy blonde hair and he laid it on the line. And I remember him saying,

01:19:40.220 you parents want to know why your kids are so fucked up? He was like, it's because we have to

01:19:45.500 get straight A's. We have to join 10 clubs. We have to be the captain of three sports in order to get

01:19:51.180 into the school you went to. And he said, that's why we're boozing on the weekends. We're sneaking

01:19:56.360 alcohol into our parties and we're getting stoned whenever you're not looking at us. I remember being

01:20:01.040 like, holy shit. Oh my God. Okay. Got it. Copy and Roger. He was honest, right? Because all that

01:20:07.660 pressure that we put on them comes at the expense of their mental health and it will, it will come

01:20:13.060 back to haunt them. And to the point we were making earlier for what? So they can get into an Ivy. A,

01:20:19.040 they're not getting in. Only 3% of the population is getting in. You talk about how, if you just looked

01:20:24.200 at, what was it? The state of Connecticut. If you took all the valedictorians, you know what I'm going

01:20:29.800 for here? I do. It was a, it was a college, uh, college night that I attended for the book. And

01:20:35.920 it was, you know, if you take all the valedictorians and salutatorians and you add them together from

01:20:41.360 all this, you know, 14,000 schools around, you can fill up the, the, the first 10, 20 schools,

01:20:48.300 top schools. So in other words, it's a lottery. It's a, it's essentially, it's a lottery is what they

01:20:53.560 were saying. So like just the, just the number one and number two in the States of Connecticut

01:20:57.500 could take up all the spots in all the IVs. So, I mean, your kid can be perfect 4.0 captain

01:21:05.220 of the football, all the teams, all of it. And still the odds are he or she's not getting

01:21:08.720 in. So just accept that now. And this is the Pew thing that you, it's from chapter five

01:21:12.660 that I loved reading now from the book. Pew research conducted a study to explore this

01:21:16.700 very issue. This belief that just a few colleges are good. Researchers compared life outcomes

01:21:23.660 between graduates who had attended large public universities and those who had attended the

01:21:27.940 more expensive private schools. Surprisingly, they found no statistical difference in the

01:21:33.580 outcomes. The majority of each group reported about the same levels of personal satisfaction

01:21:39.280 with their family life, with their economic wellbeing, with their job. That, so what did you do?

01:21:48.100 You stressed out your kid, you drove him to booze and to drugs and God knows what else. So he could

01:21:54.200 get into a school he's not going to get into. And for what, if you would just let him have a nice,

01:21:59.660 normal childhood, he would have wound up with the same level of economic wellbeing, satisfaction with

01:22:05.980 his job and with his family life. My God, no one talks about that. Well, nobody talks about it and

01:22:12.120 nobody talks about why parents are so fixated by the schools. And what I found in talking with,

01:22:19.160 you know, hundreds of families and experts in the field is that parents, because of this economic

01:22:24.880 uncertainty that we talked about, not knowing what the future is going to, you know, be for our kids

01:22:30.260 in terms of careers, what careers available to them. Parents are betting big that early childhood

01:22:36.180 success, uh, that leads to a quote, good college in their eyes will act as a safety vest, a kind of

01:22:44.000 life preserver in a sea of uncertainty that this college brand name will keep them afloat no matter

01:22:51.820 what in the future. But as you pointed out and what I saw on the ground and what decades of research

01:22:58.440 show is that that safety vest that we're hoping will protect our kid is actually working like a

01:23:05.820 lead vest and drowning too many of the kids. It's trying to protect what you were talking about

01:23:11.860 with the drinking. Um, Oh, I can't tell you how many, how many seniors and college students told me

01:23:18.680 about how the excessive pressure to achieve led them to drink to black out on the weekends. This was the

01:23:27.060 only way they could shut down their overprotective minds. And so the, the parents of, you know, in,

01:23:34.020 in the book, I, I sort of lay out the secrets of the healthy strivers that I met because I wanted to know

01:23:39.220 how could I raise a healthy striver and what those children reported, those students reported that their

01:23:47.280 parents, instead of pushing them actually sometimes created guardrails and put limits on how many

01:23:55.760 extracurricular activities they could take, how many APs they could take because those parents saw it

01:24:01.240 as their job to teach their kids while they are living in their home, how to build a life that the

01:24:07.960 kid will not have to escape from with drugs and alcohol. They saw their life as the balance keepers

01:24:15.600 of their kids. You, you picked up on a point. Um, we've talked about on the show before with Dr.

01:24:21.560 Leonard Sachs, the family dinner, the family time together, like the kids who feel connected

01:24:27.020 and valued for who they are just time around the dinner table. And then the time around the dinner

01:24:31.260 table should not be, what'd you get on that math test? What did, what did all your friends get?

01:24:34.940 What did everybody write it? It should be, how are you? Wouldn't it be fun to do this? Remember that

01:24:39.320 trip we took here, you know, the actual connection with your family, feeling valued by that core,

01:24:43.500 whatever number it is, is another insulating factor.

01:24:47.020 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I don't know that it has to be a family dinner,

01:24:52.700 but it has to be intentional, insistent time together as a family challenge success,

01:24:59.320 which is a great nonprofit, um, in California affiliated with Stanford talks about how children

01:25:04.820 and teens, and I would argue adults need something every day. This ingredient playtime downtime and family

01:25:13.260 time. So when you look at your kid's schedules, are you leaving time? Are you insisting that they

01:25:20.220 have playtime downtime, family time? The parents of the healthy strivers insisted on it and they held

01:25:27.260 their kids accountable. Right. Because you don't want to completely abandon all parental responsibility

01:25:34.660 of modeling and valuing. Yes. Hard work and being determined and holding yourself to a high standard.

01:25:42.440 It's just threading the needle between like to do that between this overachievement culture

01:25:48.960 and raising a loser. Right. That's the magical. That's the magic spot. That's a sweet spot. That's

01:25:54.440 what you're trying to work toward. And it's a lot bigger than parents think it is. That sweet spot is

01:25:59.780 a lot bigger. And what I will tell you, what really shakes out in the research is that the best place

01:26:06.240 a parent can put their energy if they want to raise a successful child and who doesn't, this is not

01:26:11.280 this book, just to be clear, is not anti achievement or anti ambition. I enjoy achievement. I value it.

01:26:18.960 I get joy from it and I want my kids to get joy from it too. Um, so this is not anti achievement,

01:26:24.280 but it is helping your kids understand the bigger picture, understanding that achievement is a slice

01:26:30.720 of a good, successful life. One of the things you touch on is for lack of a better word, modeling.

01:26:37.700 Like you talk about how over overly involved moms and dads are now versus when we were kids. I mean,

01:26:45.840 the numbers were actually really stunning. It was like dads are something like three times more

01:26:50.220 involved than they were a few decades ago. Moms are at least double and 71% of moms are working

01:26:56.800 now too. So that's why moms are completely stressed out. Well, that matters. It matters for two reasons.

01:27:01.920 At least it matters for, well, I'll give three. Number one, the health of your marriage, which does

01:27:06.680 matter to your family's happiness and your kid's family happiness. Number two, your own wellbeing.

01:27:11.880 Of course, this is in no particular order. And number three, if your child sees only a stressed

01:27:18.760 out mom or dad with no social connections, who makes no time for him or herself, they're learning

01:27:27.340 that. Exactly right. I will tell you the most surprising thing I learned in researching this

01:27:36.660 book and it stopped me in my tracks and it made me rethink a lot of my life. The most surprising

01:27:43.420 thing I learned was that the number one intervention for any child in distress is to make sure the

01:27:51.480 primary caregivers, those are most often the mother and father to make sure their wellbeing,

01:27:57.580 their support system, their relationships are intact because a child's resilience rests on the

01:28:06.080 resilience of the adults in their lives and adult resilience rests on the depth and support

01:28:13.420 of their relationships. So we are sold a bill of goods by the multi-billion dollar wellness

01:28:19.440 industry that says to us, download this meditation app, you know, buy this bubble bath, buy this

01:28:27.140 candle. Those are all great things for reducing stress. Who doesn't like a nice scented candle,

01:28:32.680 but that's not going to give you the resilience you need to act as the first responder to your

01:28:40.300 kids' struggles. So what does this mean? It means that parents, yes, we are overstretched,

01:28:47.380 but we need to find time in our calendars. Research finds it just requires one hour a week

01:28:53.640 of intentional time to connect with a friend or two outside of our home. Our homes are, you know,

01:29:03.320 our marriages are, according to the data, already overstretched. We are sort of performing as these

01:29:08.880 one person villages in our home. And so we really need to find one or two people in our life that

01:29:15.480 we can be vulnerable to, that we could, we could be felt as, as valued, that we could be seen

01:29:23.080 unconditionally for who we are at our core and that we could be that person for someone else.

01:29:29.100 It doesn't take a lot of time, just intentional time. And in the parents that I visited in these

01:29:35.120 competitive communities, it wasn't that they didn't have friends. They had friends. It was

01:29:40.700 that they rarely had time and bandwidth to invest in those friendships so that those friends could be

01:29:47.720 sources of support when that adult needed it. So the biggest takeaway, right, is, is to, you don't need

01:29:55.400 a lot of friends, just one or two people that you can be vulnerable to. Um, that is what bolsters

01:30:03.000 resilience. Um, in the time we have left, can you tell two stories? The, the first one is about

01:30:09.600 someone you interviewed. And the second one is about you and Caroline, your daughter, but that this story

01:30:15.180 in the book was heartbreaking about this woman you sat with who made you the tea, who looked at you

01:30:21.000 mother to mother with a warning about the way she had done it. And you are incorporating this

01:30:26.280 advice into your own parenting. And I loved the story about Caroline when she was worried about

01:30:30.280 the test. So can you, can you touch on this? Yeah, sure. So, uh, so this was one of the early

01:30:34.840 mother, my early interviews. And I was sitting with this woman who talked about how when her child was

01:30:40.320 in middle school up until high school, she thought her role as a mother was to be that warm source of

01:30:45.000 support. She didn't spend so much time worrying about her kid's achievement. Her kid was in the

01:30:49.480 honors track, but then he started hitting high school and the mothers at the school and the

01:30:54.900 fathers were, would be asking her and emailing her, what are you doing to enrich your son? How are you,

01:31:00.640 you know, where, how are the summers being spent? Are you signing up for this academic camp? Are you

01:31:05.340 doing this Russian math on Saturdays? And she said, she, she just totally lost the plot in her

01:31:11.400 parenting. And she started to get overcome by this social contagion of anxiety. And it really damaged

01:31:18.000 her relationship with her child. Her child at senior year stopped going to school, couldn't get

01:31:23.000 out of bed with intense therapy and with medication. He was able to graduate, but this, this anxiety

01:31:29.800 really stayed with him for, for several years into his twenties. And I said to her, I, you know,

01:31:35.760 I leaned in to comfort her. I said, I understand, you know, we parents, we feel judged by how we parent,

01:31:41.580 if we're not, you know, doing everything we can for our kids. And she warned me, she looked at me

01:31:46.840 and she said, I have so many regrets. And I shuddered because my son was about to enter high

01:31:53.480 school. And I thought I have so much to learn here. And I'm just so grateful that these parents

01:31:58.180 opened up to me and changed my parenting. And, and just the stories were extraordinary,

01:32:04.180 but the Caroline story quickly. So she was in eighth grade and her friends were, you know,

01:32:10.960 there was this social contagion in her school over grades and something that she really hadn't

01:32:16.680 been talking about until it started coming up at the lunchroom table. And she came home one night

01:32:21.820 when the grades were about to post. And she said, mom, I'm really scared. And I said, well,

01:32:25.760 what are you scared about? And she said, I'm just afraid I'm not going to get all A's. And I said,

01:32:28.620 honey, your worth does not equal your grades. Like I will love you no matter what. And if this report

01:32:33.960 card doesn't reflect the hard work that I've seen you put in, we'll figure it out together,

01:32:38.080 please. And she just kept going on and on and on. And I spotted this yellow sticker,

01:32:42.400 these like this, the post-its next to her. And I wrote on it, your worth does not equal

01:32:47.380 your grades. And I handed it to her and it stays on her laptop. It's now like dog-eared and wrinkled

01:32:55.060 up, but she keeps that, that sticky as a reminder. Cause we have to constantly remind our kids in the

01:33:01.760 environments we are raising them in that they are enough just as they are.

01:33:05.640 Hmm. My gosh, it's such a good reminder. I, I do feel like I'm up against it. I mean,

01:33:11.080 maybe I shouldn't be living in Connecticut. Maybe we shouldn't have been in New York city privates.

01:33:15.000 I think about, I don't like, but I think about sometimes John Stewart because he, um, when he

01:33:20.640 left the daily show and he had, you know, gobs of money from doing that show, he moved to upstate,

01:33:26.060 you know, a little bit upstate of New York, New York city, about an hour North on like a goat farm.

01:33:30.940 And they're going to, I think, uh, I read once to like a public school up there where the pressure

01:33:36.360 cooker is probably not as bad as it is where I am or where I know you are. And so I, I do wonder,

01:33:42.260 do you feel like we can win this battle being in, in the heart of it, right? Like being right in the

01:33:48.680 belly of the beast where you're surrounded by the most competitive people on earth and the most

01:33:55.200 highly achieving people on earth. And so even if you take your foot off that gas, you know,

01:34:00.400 it's there like the, everyone else is driving the Maseratis at a 200 miles an hour around your kid.

01:34:07.280 So, yes, I do believe it because I saw it in action all over the country and I see it in New

01:34:12.300 York city. I see it in Connecticut. What we need to be, what the way to do it is to make home a haven

01:34:19.280 from the pressure. Our kids are getting it from every direction. Home needs to be a place for them

01:34:25.020 to recover where their sense of self worth is never in question. And as parents, we need to

01:34:30.740 buffer against those messages as much as we can. Our kids know we want them to achieve. They need

01:34:36.720 to know more importantly that we love them unconditionally and they need to feel that love

01:34:42.020 as unconditional. And you've also said that, uh, like play games with your kids that, that checks the

01:34:47.060 box of parental time and playing with your children and let them lose. Yes. That teach them that there's

01:34:54.320 such a thing as healthy competition that, you know, beating somebody isn't a bad thing. It's not

01:34:59.600 being unkind. It's how we act when we win. That is the separator between, you know, being a good

01:35:07.020 person and being a bad sport. Jenny, it's so good to see you. Thank you for writing this book and for

01:35:12.960 coming on. It's, I'm not surprised at all. Like I said that you wrote it, uh, you've been interested

01:35:16.980 in it a long time and now you're going to help a lot of people, a lot of kids, all the best.

01:35:20.800 Thank you so much, Megan. All right. Don't forget guys, the name of the book is never enough. The

01:35:26.060 aptly named never enough when achievement culture becomes toxic and what we can do about it. It's

01:35:31.920 available now. I downloaded the audio books. I love getting my books via audio. Jenny reads it.

01:35:36.100 She does a great job. Um, and is a fascinating person. You, you, uh, hopefully you've already

01:35:42.560 learned some of these lessons, but don't, don't work out any of this stuff on your kids and don't let

01:35:46.720 other parents goad you into ruining your own child's childhood. Right? Like it's, it's not

01:35:53.600 that hard. It doesn't matter. Honestly, like I look it up all the time. Like I'm not hiring people

01:35:58.700 from Harvard and yell these ivies anyway. I'm only going to hire people from the third tier schools.

01:36:02.180 Really? You can't work for me unless you went to a third tier school. That's it. More employers like

01:36:06.080 me need to say that. So we can start removing the outside pressures from these kids. I'll give you a

01:36:10.360 great job. I'll pay you well. If I think you're going to work hard and you're going to do well,

01:36:14.540 but if you went to Harvard, forget it. You're out. Yeah. Is the Lauren go to Harvard for Lauren,

01:36:20.820 you're fired. No, it's just kidding. Just kidding. Oh, USC. Yeah. She's fine. Um, we'll talk more

01:36:28.520 tomorrow. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:36:44.540 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

The Megyn Kelly Show - August 30, 2023

Raising ＂Outdoor＂ Kids, and Overcoming Toxic Achievement Culture, with Steven Rinella and Jennifer Wallace ｜ Ep. 618

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