The Megyn Kelly Show - Record-Breaking Illegal Immigration Numbers, and What Joe Biden Knew About Hunter, with Ben Shapiro and the IRS Whistleblowers

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00:00:02.860 Someone is trying to frame us.

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00:00:30.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:32.300 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:33.920 I started wondering,

00:00:35.580 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:38.500 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

00:00:41.400 Are those from Winners?

00:00:42.920 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:45.380 Did she pay full price?

00:00:46.740 Or that leather tote?

00:00:47.740 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:48.940 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:50.380 That dress?

00:00:51.220 That jacket?

00:00:51.880 Those shoes?

00:00:52.900 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:55.400 Stop wondering.

00:00:57.160 Start winning.

00:00:57.720 Winners find fabulous for less.

00:01:01.100 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show,

00:01:02.680 live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:06.380 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.020 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and Happy New Year.

00:01:17.820 Hope everyone had a great holiday season with your family and your friends,

00:01:21.860 getting some rest and relaxation, ideally, like we did.

00:01:25.960 We were in Montana for the full two weeks.

00:01:28.420 You know, the first week we did tape shows of a deep dive into the Idaho quadruple murders,

00:01:33.200 got a lot of great feedback on our own investigation into the facts that have been unearthed in that investigation and that crime so far.

00:01:41.920 So thank you all for tuning in.

00:01:43.640 And now we're back.

00:01:46.100 I will tell you, we had a wonderful, wonderful Christmas with our kids out in Montana.

00:01:51.160 And we actually brought the dogs as we did last year.

00:01:53.680 And this year we did not give Strud the tranquilizer on the plane, which led to a gas-free trip.

00:02:00.880 It was wonderful.

00:02:02.080 And actually he behaved.

00:02:03.760 So the plane ride was a lot more pleasant for all involved.

00:02:08.020 Unfortunately, once we got out there, though I do studiously avoid leaving anything he can eat anywhere out around him.

00:02:16.180 And when I don't have eyes on him, he's fast, ladies and gentlemen, he's fast.

00:02:20.340 And one morning, Santa brought Strudwick and Thunder, those little bones that you can eat for fresh breath.

00:02:26.960 You know those things?

00:02:29.200 And he did have bad breath.

00:02:31.460 I'm not going to lie.

00:02:32.060 So I gave him one and I gave Thunder one.

00:02:34.040 And then I forgot.

00:02:35.620 I elevated it.

00:02:36.620 I put it on the counter.

00:02:37.720 But that's not good enough with Strud.

00:02:38.740 You have to put it up high, like where a human would have to reach.

00:02:42.140 And he was out of sight.

00:02:43.900 And I was like, where's Strud?

00:02:45.960 And whenever you ask that question, it leads to bad results.

00:02:48.800 So I went looking.

00:02:50.400 And can I tell you, the entire huge bag of those fresh breath little bone treats was almost gone.

00:02:56.780 I just gave it to them that morning.

00:02:58.860 And I read the directions that said maximum one per day.

00:03:04.520 He had eaten 22.

00:03:06.720 22, 22.

00:03:08.080 So I speed dialed poison control, which, as you know, is button number one on my speed dial.

00:03:15.660 And they said to do the thing that I've done many times with Strudwick, which is he had to have a little hydrogen peroxide mixed in with some yogurt.

00:03:22.060 Maximum three tablespoons a day for a dog over 40 pounds.

00:03:24.520 Just FYI, I got the rules down.

00:03:27.240 And then Strud and we had a rather unpleasant 48 hours.

00:03:30.620 But, you know, all things considered, it wasn't so bad.

00:03:32.940 It could have been a lot worse with Strud.

00:03:34.720 I'll tell you one other thing.

00:03:35.980 I got Doug a miniature diesel engine replica for Christmas, you know, for his book, The Mysterious Case of Rudolf Diesel.

00:03:43.960 And Strud tried to eat that, too.

00:03:46.200 But, you know, powered by diesel really means something.

00:03:49.300 He couldn't.

00:03:49.780 That was one thing Strud could not destroy.

00:03:51.220 He tried.

00:03:52.040 I'll show you the pictures of the box.

00:03:53.800 He got the box.

00:03:55.340 Other than that, we had a fun costume night, which I will show you some pictures of.

00:03:59.740 We do a theme every year.

00:04:01.000 One year we did Willy Wonka.

00:04:03.300 One year we did Gilligan's Island.

00:04:06.320 One year we did Superheroes.

00:04:08.480 I mean, you name it.

00:04:09.300 We did Cobra Kai last year.

00:04:10.860 And this year we did the Ten Commandments.

00:04:14.200 And it was amazing.

00:04:15.880 The Ten Commandments outfits were so fun.

00:04:18.820 And we watched the Ten Commandments every year around Easter.

00:04:21.740 So it's sort of a holiday thing.

00:04:23.240 So it tied into Christmas.

00:04:24.460 Christmas and Doug and I, according to Barry Weiss, made some excellent Israelites as Moses and his wife.

00:04:33.120 And you can see the picture here.

00:04:35.780 I sent this to Barry Weiss saying, Barry, I never got around to buying that menorah you wanted me to put in the window.

00:04:40.940 But we did do this.

00:04:44.180 So God bless our friends in Israel, my Jewish friends.

00:04:48.260 And Doug and I gave it our best.

00:04:50.920 Okay.

00:04:51.200 This is officially our first show of 2024.

00:04:53.820 It's going to be an extraordinary year for our country.

00:04:56.640 I mean, I truly, like, I can't get my arms around how big this year is going to be, news-wise.

00:05:01.160 I don't think we've ever had a bigger one.

00:05:02.740 I really don't.

00:05:03.760 This month alone, we're going to be covering the Iowa caucuses, the New Hampshire primary, finally here.

00:05:08.620 There might be a few debates.

00:05:10.600 They're not sanctioned by the RNC, but there might be.

00:05:13.500 Trump's not going to any of these.

00:05:14.640 And we will likely witness the U.S. Supreme Court taking center stage again in a U.S. presidential campaign, in the 2024 presidential campaign.

00:05:24.720 In particular, as this question about whether Trump is immune from criminal prosecution goes up to the Supreme Court, along with the question of whether Trump can stay on the ballots.

00:05:36.240 That was the biggest piece of news that broke while we were all on vacay.

00:05:39.920 It's Colorado and some unelected official in Maine decided Trump doesn't get to play at all in the political process, removing him, or at least issuing rulings that he should be removed from the primary ballots in those two states.

00:06:00.500 Those decisions are not going to be enforced until we get a U.S. Supreme Court ruling.

00:06:05.060 And that, mark my words, will reverse this lawlessness.

00:06:09.020 Trump will be on the ballots.

00:06:10.840 This is insane.

00:06:12.060 It's not going to stand.

00:06:14.260 We'll get to a lot of it.

00:06:39.020 Okay, joining me now, no one better to talk about all of this than Ben Shapiro.

00:06:52.000 He's editor emeritus over at The Daily Wire and host of The Ben Shapiro Show.

00:06:56.400 Ben, welcome back.

00:06:57.800 Hey, good to see you.

00:06:58.360 Happy New Year.

00:06:59.480 Great to see you, too.

00:07:00.140 Did you see the picture of me and Doug as Moses and Sephora?

00:07:06.940 We went, look, we nailed it, Ben.

00:07:08.780 You tell me on our costume.

00:07:10.820 Yes, absolutely true to history.

00:07:13.160 This is exactly what Moses and Sephora look like.

00:07:15.240 Absolutely.

00:07:15.620 Well, we tried.

00:07:21.220 We do a costume theme every year.

00:07:23.740 And I'm telling you, this is the one thing I spend my money on.

00:07:26.880 I don't get diamonds.

00:07:28.040 These are fake in my ears now.

00:07:29.980 I don't do any of that crap.

00:07:31.520 I spend money on these dumb costumes that we wear once a year when we have costume night

00:07:35.640 over the holidays.

00:07:36.860 I was so happy.

00:07:39.300 And historical.

00:07:41.160 Nice.

00:07:41.520 They definitely have higher resale value.

00:07:43.720 You just sign those, put them on eBay.

00:07:45.020 They'll have higher resale value than the diamonds.

00:07:47.720 There's the whole cast and crew.

00:07:49.120 You got Farrow.

00:07:50.320 You got Ramsey's.

00:07:51.760 You got them all.

00:07:53.720 Okay.

00:07:54.320 So let's get down to the news.

00:07:55.520 I want to start with the border, which was, that just broke a couple days ago, the latest

00:07:58.640 numbers.

00:07:59.100 And that's really, like, I don't even know what to say about where we are right now on

00:08:02.580 the border.

00:08:03.220 The news is so dire.

00:08:05.120 302,000 immigrant encounters in December alone.

00:08:09.460 In December alone, the worst ever, Ben.

00:08:12.740 Put it in perspective.

00:08:14.000 So 300,000, those are enormous numbers.

00:08:16.980 I have to say the single best political move, maybe of all time, is all these Republican

00:08:21.420 governors sending illegal migrants up to these various blue cities and all these blue city

00:08:27.660 mayors suddenly being forced to understand that illegal immigration is actually really

00:08:31.120 bad.

00:08:31.500 Not when it hits the 10,000 person in South Texas town, when it hits their giant city that

00:08:35.920 is supposedly incredibly wealthy and capable of enormous social services.

00:08:39.260 It hits Chicago.

00:08:40.020 It hits New York.

00:08:40.780 And then all of a sudden, these people are like, illegal immigration is really, really

00:08:43.900 bad.

00:08:44.840 One thing that I talked about on my show today was just that this is going to be the year

00:08:48.320 when a lot of chickens come home to roost.

00:08:49.800 The illegal immigration chicken is going to come home to roost for Joe Biden in a very,

00:08:52.780 very serious way.

00:08:54.020 Because everybody left, right, and center, I mean, look at his immigration numbers.

00:08:57.080 They understand that leaving the border open to this extent is just insane.

00:09:00.820 And it began literally when he became president.

00:09:02.980 I mean, if you look at the numbers, they spiked in January 2021.

00:09:05.400 And they've stayed at these extraordinary levels ever since.

00:09:09.160 300,000 people showing up on the border just in December alone.

00:09:13.180 These are insane, insane numbers.

00:09:15.240 And again, I think even people in blue states and blue cities are beginning to feel the impact

00:09:19.780 of that.

00:09:20.720 It was nice when you could relegate the illegal immigration problem down to a bunch of red

00:09:24.560 states along the southern border.

00:09:25.720 Now that a lot of those people are moving into the interior of the United States and into

00:09:28.740 cities governed by Joe Biden's supposed Democratic allies, you can see that this is going

00:09:33.040 to have a pretty significant effect on Biden's administration.

00:09:35.540 I would not be surprised to see Biden make some moves to shore up the border simply to

00:09:39.700 shore up the moderate flank of his own party.

00:09:42.540 Yes, he's going to have to do it.

00:09:43.720 Here are the numbers.

00:09:44.340 So as I mentioned in December, over 300,000 immigrant encounters, highest monthly total ever

00:09:51.140 recorded in American history.

00:09:52.960 Since October 1st, there were more than 785,000 encounters, the highest first quarter on record.

00:09:59.320 This is all per Fox News.

00:10:02.300 January, we had 157,000 last year.

00:10:05.540 Then in September, we had almost 270,000.

00:10:08.940 And now by December, it's up to 300,000 migrant encounters.

00:10:12.200 This doesn't include the gotaways, the ones who ran and we didn't get them, not to mention

00:10:17.640 the ones we just don't know about.

00:10:19.420 And then just by way of comparison, we went back to 2019.

00:10:22.680 To be fair, we excluded 2020 because we had the pandemic.

00:10:25.800 We had all the special rules.

00:10:26.680 Um, and so let's be fair and compared apples to apples, Trump to Biden in a non pandemic

00:10:32.800 period, December of 2019, there were 60,000, 60,000 border encounters under Trump now 302,000.

00:10:42.280 And listen to this, Ben, to your point about how Biden now has no choice, but to do something

00:10:46.280 about this.

00:10:46.940 Not that he cares.

00:10:48.020 He clearly wants this, but he's miscalculated politically because in a political year,

00:10:52.000 he has to pay attention to the numbers and the Hispanic poll numbers.

00:10:55.460 My God, just look at Hispanics.

00:10:57.320 People think Hispanics might be in favor of this.

00:10:59.260 Maybe it's like somebody they know or they have empathy for.

00:11:01.520 No, no.

00:11:02.220 They're very, very against this.

00:11:04.220 Um, in 2020, Joe Biden beat Donald Trump, according to the latest USA Today and Suffolk

00:11:08.960 University poll, 65 to 32.

00:11:11.440 He was, he was beating Donald Trump.

00:11:13.260 So it's, it's almost twice, right?

00:11:15.300 Or is it?

00:11:15.680 It is twice.

00:11:16.140 It's twice what Donald Trump had, 65 to 32.

00:11:19.840 Today, it's a Donald Trump advantage, 39 to 34.

00:11:25.440 Hispanics have swung entirely over to the Trump camp.

00:11:27.800 Yes, they care about inflation.

00:11:28.940 They care about all the things that we all care about.

00:11:31.360 But listen to how they're, how they feel.

00:11:32.820 This is according to Monmouth, uh, earlier in December, how they feel about this issue,

00:11:37.800 immigration.

00:11:38.180 Uh, do you approve or disapprove of how Joe Biden has handled the following policy areas?

00:11:42.820 Immigration, uh, approve 30%.

00:11:45.620 Disapprove 67% of Hispanic voters disapprove of how he's handling it.

00:11:51.240 So what do you, what do you make of all of it?

00:11:52.860 I mean, it's insane.

00:11:53.780 The number that you cited before about Trump's numbers versus Biden there is really quite

00:11:57.180 fascinating because what it suggests is not that everybody swung over to the Trump camp.

00:12:00.440 It's that they left the Biden camp.

00:12:01.780 So what that means that they're up for grabs, right?

00:12:03.940 Because the first stat you read was 65 to 32 in favor of Biden, which means that Trump

00:12:08.120 was at 32.

00:12:09.040 Well, in this election cycle, what you say is that Trump has the advantage up to 39.

00:12:12.660 That's a seven point gain.

00:12:13.760 What you're really seeing there is a 30 point drop off for Joe Biden among Hispanics.

00:12:18.220 And this is what you're seeing all over the place for Biden, this massive bleed in voters.

00:12:22.060 Now, the question for the 2024 election, of course, is going to be how many of those

00:12:25.220 voters quote unquote come home and how many of those people are expressing dissatisfaction

00:12:28.420 with Biden before there's an actual opponent on the ballot, before you get down to it.

00:12:32.020 But bottom line is this.

00:12:33.040 I think that when it comes to the election, virtually everybody has an opinion on these two guys.

00:12:37.160 It's going to be exogenous circumstances, extraneous circumstances that decide this election,

00:12:41.460 which is why Biden has to do something about the southern border.

00:12:44.180 If he does not, then Trump's just going to run roughshod over him with regard to the

00:12:48.440 southern border.

00:12:48.840 It's his number one issue, Trump.

00:12:49.840 It's always been his number one issue.

00:12:51.560 And how better to run against this than to just point at Joe Biden and say, this guy

00:12:56.020 has opened the border up wide.

00:12:57.480 I mean, those stats that you were citing there, Megan, about where we were in December of 2019,

00:13:02.120 60,000 illegal immigrants coming across the border in 2019, December, 126,000 single men

00:13:09.420 came across the border in December of this year, of the last year.

00:13:13.300 Twice as many single men as humans came across the border in December of 2023 as they did in

00:13:19.600 December 2019.

00:13:21.260 Those are astonishing numbers.

00:13:22.360 And we don't know who any of those people are.

00:13:23.680 A lot of those people, I'm sure, are going to be on the terror watch list.

00:13:25.960 A lot of those people are not coming from the Northern Triangle.

00:13:27.820 A lot of those people are coming from Africa.

00:13:29.500 Many are coming from Asia.

00:13:30.780 Many are coming from the Middle East.

00:13:32.200 And the border needs to be shut.

00:13:33.240 And everybody knows it, which is why you got to say that Biden's either inability or

00:13:38.040 unwillingness to turn to his left flank and just say, stop.

00:13:41.100 It's actually politically insane.

00:13:43.600 I understand that it's his unwillingness to do what needs to be done on the border.

00:13:47.340 That is holding up the thing he says that he wants the most right now, which is this

00:13:50.040 Ukraine aid package, Israel-Taiwan aid package.

00:13:52.760 The thing holding that up, Republicans are willing to give that to him if he will solidify the

00:13:56.340 border.

00:13:56.540 And he's been saying no, which makes no sense.

00:13:59.500 He could get all the things, right?

00:14:00.760 He could cave on the border.

00:14:02.440 He could then turn to his left flank and say, listen, guys, I needed to do that because

00:14:05.160 I needed the Ukraine money.

00:14:06.240 And then he could turn to the American people and say, listen, I worked with the Republicans

00:14:08.860 in bipartisan fashion to shut the border and try to neutralize that issue.

00:14:12.420 The fact he hasn't done that is so politically crazy, it boggles the mind.

00:14:16.080 The number of illegal migrants who came into the United States last year, they're saying

00:14:21.340 now, at this point, exceeds the birth rate in America, exceeds the birth.

00:14:27.740 We had more illegals enter than we had actual American babies born.

00:14:32.120 What's honestly, what's the what's the thinking that those those are the future Democratic voters?

00:14:37.020 What is the thinking behind a complete sieve from coast to coast along the southern border?

00:14:44.180 Yeah, I mean, there's the cynical practical read, which is that these people are going

00:14:46.560 to come in, they'll become Democratic voters after becoming wards of the state because

00:14:49.780 they'll be on welfare.

00:14:50.580 They don't have skill sets that are necessary to get jobs and all the rest.

00:14:53.560 That's the cynical political take.

00:14:54.680 Then there's the ideological take, which is that somehow the United States owes it to the

00:14:58.520 rest of the world to give everybody citizenship, which is totally insane.

00:15:01.220 But there is a wing of the Democratic Party that truly believes that, which is that you

00:15:04.240 have a right.

00:15:05.000 And I believe the mayor of Boston actually said this yesterday.

00:15:07.240 You have a right to immigrate to the United States.

00:15:08.880 Let me play it, Ben, and then I'll give it back to you.

00:15:10.440 Let me play it.

00:15:11.200 Here's Michelle Wu, mayor of Boston.

00:15:13.260 Every person, every human being has the legal right to come to the United States and seek

00:15:18.320 asylum or shelter.

00:15:19.620 And those policies have been in place for a long time.

00:15:24.040 Go ahead.

00:15:25.000 I mean, that's not true.

00:15:25.900 I mean, you have the legal right to show up at a port of entry and then try to get in,

00:15:30.420 I suppose.

00:15:31.020 But then we have every legal and moral obligation to reject you if we don't want you here.

00:15:35.420 And that's what it means to be an American citizen.

00:15:37.300 There is that part of the party that truly believes that as well.

00:15:40.400 And then there is this weird sort of globalist economic program that suggests that if we're

00:15:47.680 not going to have babies in the United States, then we need to import a labor base in order

00:15:51.140 to keep wages down.

00:15:52.320 And that, of course, is ridiculous on its face as well.

00:15:55.840 So there's a lot going on here and they all cross streams.

00:15:58.420 But the American people are not in favor of this.

00:16:00.460 It's one of Biden's weakest points in the polling data.

00:16:02.920 And again, I've never understood this about Biden's presidency.

00:16:05.920 It makes no sense to me.

00:16:06.780 He won the nomination being not Bernie.

00:16:09.320 That was literally his program.

00:16:10.620 I'm a dead person who's not Bernie Sanders.

00:16:12.780 And then he won the presidency saying, I'm a dead person who's not Donald Trump.

00:16:17.320 So what people actually just wanted was a dead person, as it turns out.

00:16:20.760 And then it turns out he gets into office and he's a dead person who's actually imitating

00:16:24.620 every wild left wing policy that he rejected when he was fighting Bernie Sanders.

00:16:29.020 It makes zero political sense to me.

00:16:31.220 He's going to have to wise up or he's not going to be president for much longer.

00:16:34.240 I mean, and you know what?

00:16:35.480 The long term history of Hispanics coming to the United States does not suggest they are

00:16:40.040 going to be Democrat forever.

00:16:41.220 So he really better be careful when it comes to what he wishes for.

00:16:45.000 He's going to have to.

00:16:45.920 He sent somebody down there.

00:16:46.840 I mean, like, supposedly this was like the big they're taking a serious look at the border.

00:16:51.360 They're not doing anything.

00:16:52.280 Uh, Obrador is going to have his own way.

00:16:54.300 He didn't make any promises that were meaningful.

00:16:55.980 Nothing's going to change unless Joe Biden actually feels this pain and maybe his voters

00:17:00.000 will get through to him between now and November.

00:17:02.320 Um, that's not the only insanity going on in our country right now.

00:17:05.860 On the trans front, I wasn't surprised to see Maryland and others make this so-called

00:17:12.480 gender affirming care, which is really what we're doing is cutting off the body parts of

00:17:16.900 minors who say they're gender confused or sterilizing them with, uh, puberty blockers

00:17:22.420 into cross-sex hormones.

00:17:23.660 Uh, but they call it gender affirming care to try to get it through.

00:17:26.820 And because there's a big money-making industry around this whole thing, it wasn't surprised

00:17:30.000 to see Maryland and some other blue States approve it in, you know, law, make, make sure

00:17:35.660 that it's protected.

00:17:36.240 Um, I was surprised to see Ohio governor, Mike DeWine reject a ban in what is clearly

00:17:44.720 now a red state Ohio, where you've got Republicans, supermajorities in the legislature.

00:17:48.840 He banned it.

00:17:49.880 I mean, he refused to ban it.

00:17:51.140 He refused to sign the ban, which they signed in Idaho, which they signed in Louisiana, but

00:17:56.400 apparently it was just a bridge too far for Mike DeWine in Ohio saying, I've looked the

00:18:01.960 parents in the eyes of these supposedly trans kids.

00:18:06.560 And, you know, this really can be a life-saving thing to cut off their penises when they're

00:18:10.120 minors, um, or what have you.

00:18:12.620 And therefore I felt the need to do it.

00:18:14.320 Now the daily callers got a report out today saying he received at least $40,000 in donations

00:18:19.160 from the hospitals who perform these very lucrative procedures on minors.

00:18:23.980 I don't know how big that, you know, pot of money is, whether it would have changed his

00:18:27.680 view or not, but I think it's a complete betrayal by Mike DeWine.

00:18:31.280 What did you think?

00:18:32.500 I mean, it certainly is a betrayal of his voters.

00:18:34.040 I'm always hesitant to attribute politicians views to pure bribery.

00:18:38.260 I think that in this particular case, you probably see these people supporting DeWine

00:18:41.240 because they knew that he believed that thing, which is typically the way that money flows

00:18:44.180 in politics.

00:18:44.680 You know, that a politician supports an agenda item.

00:18:47.000 So you give money to that politician.

00:18:49.000 DeWine has been squirrely on a bunch of issues.

00:18:50.920 I mean, if you go back to COVID, he was a real lockdown governor.

00:18:53.580 I mean, he really promoted everything up to it, including the possibility of mandatory vaccination

00:18:58.100 if he could have gotten away with it in Ohio.

00:18:59.580 So it's not super shocking coming from DeWine, but in a red state like Ohio, it does show

00:19:05.920 that, again, there is a class of sort of Republican moderates who are pretty squirrely on this

00:19:11.460 issue.

00:19:11.740 You saw this, I believe, also from the governor of Utah, which, again, is a super red state.

00:19:16.160 You see some red state governors who seem deeply hesitant to wade into what they term

00:19:20.560 a culture war issue.

00:19:22.040 I mean, honest to goodness, if you can't use the power of government to protect minors from

00:19:25.940 adults who are preying on them, because that's that's what this is.

00:19:28.680 I mean, when you're talking about irreversibly destroying a child in the name of a perverse

00:19:34.020 gender ideology, they call it gender affirming care, gender and sex, as they say, if those

00:19:38.420 things as they term them are somehow in opposition to one another, the better term for gender

00:19:43.160 affirming care would be sex denying care, because that's actually what they're doing.

00:19:46.060 They're denying the actual biological sex of the child.

00:19:48.780 I mean, that's child abuse.

00:19:50.200 And the fact that Mike DeWine is somehow treating that as a generous act on behalf of the child

00:19:55.180 is is sick.

00:19:56.000 I mean, it's perverse.

00:19:57.320 Mm hmm.

00:19:58.460 I'm going to show you a clip.

00:19:59.500 And it's it's leading into a clip with Dave Chappelle, which you've probably seen.

00:20:02.580 It's gone kind of viral.

00:20:03.760 He's back at it.

00:20:04.580 But before we get to Dave, I want to set it up with this actor.

00:20:07.760 His name is Tommy Dorfman.

00:20:09.300 And we see these clips posted a lot online and on Twitter on X of trans people who say they're

00:20:15.500 trans trying to harass civilians who are in the public service industry for, quote, misgendering

00:20:20.940 them, misgendering them.

00:20:22.680 You know what?

00:20:23.400 If you were clearer in your fake gender, the person would probably be clearer in their

00:20:27.960 pronoun choice.

00:20:29.020 But if you didn't fool me, that's on you.

00:20:31.160 Like, if you fool me and I go along with your fake pronoun.

00:20:33.660 Great.

00:20:33.920 If you didn't fool me, I have no obligation to talk the way you want me to talk.

00:20:37.620 So this guy, Tommy Dorfman, who first went to they them now says he's a she was dealing

00:20:44.000 with a Delta Airlines employee over the holidays.

00:20:46.940 My God, I don't even know what we're looking at on the screen right now and decided to harass

00:20:51.100 the guy by posting his exchange with the Delta Airlines employee and apparently trying to

00:20:57.240 get this Delta Airlines employee in trouble.

00:20:59.440 I'll tell you this.

00:21:00.300 What's happened since Tommy posted the clip is he had to take it down because Team Sanity

00:21:05.900 has taken the side of the Delta guy.

00:21:07.800 Watch it.

00:21:09.040 What about when a Delta employee misgenders you intentionally?

00:21:11.760 While she's talking, while he's talking, you're talking.

00:21:13.900 You just misgendered me again.

00:21:15.700 Okay.

00:21:16.520 Multiple times.

00:21:17.560 Gotcha.

00:21:18.020 Both of you have.

00:21:19.500 Sorry.

00:21:21.020 Wasn't intentional, but if you want to take it personal, that's also.

00:21:23.900 Well, she did do it intentionally twice.

00:21:25.620 I did not do it in the fall for her.

00:21:27.440 You said she and then you said he.

00:21:29.580 You're being condescending.

00:21:31.120 And if you want to continue, I have court authority escort you out the building right this

00:21:34.560 moment if you want to play that game with me.

00:21:36.540 Okay.

00:21:37.100 Would you like to continue three days before Christmas?

00:21:39.060 I really don't mind.

00:21:40.320 I'm good.

00:21:40.700 I'll just put this on.

00:21:41.760 So effective, right?

00:21:45.460 By the way, is that not the way to deal with it?

00:21:48.200 Absolutely.

00:21:48.880 I mean, again, this sort of stuff is insane.

00:21:51.500 The entire sort of push of the trans movement is that it's somehow not an imposition on the

00:21:56.380 rest of us to be told what we have to say to a certain group of people.

00:22:00.440 And that is totally wild.

00:22:02.160 One of my favorite instances of this over the past couple of weeks, there's some TikTok

00:22:05.440 video that came out of a woman.

00:22:07.760 She's married to a man.

00:22:08.620 And she is talking in this TikTok video about how she's very insulted by her husband.

00:22:12.320 Why?

00:22:12.860 Well, because she has decided that she's actually gender non-binary.

00:22:15.520 And yet her husband insists on calling himself a straight man.

00:22:18.520 And she says that denies her gender because he's actually a man married to a non-binary

00:22:22.240 person.

00:22:22.800 So actually, he should also say that he's a member of the queer community since he's a

00:22:26.740 man who's married to a non-binary person.

00:22:29.480 Whereas her husband's like, no, I'm straight.

00:22:31.680 I just like women.

00:22:33.340 So again, this bizarre, crazy idea that you have the ability and right and should have

00:22:39.360 the legal ability, actually, to compel people to call you what you want to be called is so

00:22:44.140 insane.

00:22:45.040 And the backlash to it is just beginning, honestly.

00:22:48.020 Like it really has only started at this point, especially because there are so many people

00:22:52.380 trying to cram it down.

00:22:53.200 I don't know if you saw, Megan, this video of a lieutenant colonel talking about how there's

00:22:59.380 a man who says that he's a woman now, who says that tolerance is the highest value that

00:23:03.780 the military can bring about.

00:23:05.560 That really, it's acceptance and tolerance is the core military value that needs to be

00:23:09.760 pursued.

00:23:10.420 I don't know anybody in the military who actually believes that.

00:23:12.420 That's an insane proposition.

00:23:14.400 Oh, my God.

00:23:14.940 And it's a no.

00:23:16.200 I mean, you know, I've talked about this piece many times, but pronouns are rohypnol.

00:23:19.920 They need you to go with their preferred pronouns or accuse you of misgendering them because it's

00:23:25.700 all part of the delusion.

00:23:27.020 You have to participate in their delusion.

00:23:28.680 It requires like the first step in disillusioning you that gender is real there, that sex is

00:23:33.960 real.

00:23:34.700 And so you go down that path and it's a very slippery slope, as I've talked about at length

00:23:38.800 now, since I sort of decided not to do this.

00:23:41.160 All right.

00:23:41.360 That brings me to Dave Chappelle, who he's been so good on this issue and so fearless right

00:23:46.320 from the get go.

00:23:46.980 So he lands this, the audience, I'm sure you've seen it, but the audience, just wait

00:23:51.000 for it.

00:23:51.320 Wait for the end.

00:23:52.160 Listen.

00:23:53.560 When they said cut, this nigga was still Andy Kaufman.

00:23:59.280 So much so that everybody on the crew called him Andy.

00:24:03.540 I didn't know any of that.

00:24:04.660 I just went there to meet him.

00:24:05.840 And when he walked into the room where we were supposed to meet, I screamed, Jim

00:24:08.860 Carey.

00:24:09.440 And everyone said, no.

00:24:10.580 Call him Andy.

00:24:15.600 In hindsight, how fucking lucky am I that I got to see one of the greatest artists of

00:24:20.300 my time immersed in one of his most challenging processes ever.

00:24:24.300 I'm very lucky to have seen that.

00:24:25.660 But as it was happening, I was very disappointed because I wanted to meet Jim

00:24:36.480 Carey and I had to pretend this nigga was Andy Kaufman.

00:24:41.240 He was clearly Jim Carey.

00:24:42.640 I could look at him and I could see he was Jim Carey.

00:24:46.440 Anyway, I say all that to say, that's how trans people make me feel.

00:24:51.000 So good.

00:24:59.660 That's it.

00:25:00.180 Exactly.

00:25:01.180 We why do we have to participate in their delusion?

00:25:05.380 That's what it boils down to.

00:25:07.020 Yeah.

00:25:07.320 And that actually is part of a broader sort of reshaping in Western society, which is

00:25:12.560 that I am my feelings.

00:25:14.400 My feelings are me.

00:25:15.200 And therefore, if you deny my feelings, what you are doing is erasing me.

00:25:18.520 This is why you hear this sort of language used all this time.

00:25:20.280 It's a racial language.

00:25:21.620 If like, what harm does it do if I call you by your biological sex and you believe

00:25:25.640 you're not a member of that biological sex?

00:25:27.420 Normally in life, if you call me something I don't believe I am, all right, like, okay,

00:25:32.620 you're wrong.

00:25:33.520 And we all sort of move on.

00:25:34.760 But this sort of obsession with what other people call you, again, it goes to this idea

00:25:38.240 that the only part of you that's important is your sexual identity and your feelings

00:25:42.620 about that thing.

00:25:43.320 And so if somebody denies that to you, it's an actual imposition.

00:25:45.380 It's a microaggression against you.

00:25:46.680 That's dangerous thinking, obviously.

00:25:49.140 You've got the trans insanity.

00:25:51.840 You've got the border insanity.

00:25:53.160 And you do indeed continue to have the racial insanity, which we've seen in this country

00:25:57.640 for quite some time now.

00:25:59.020 In Chicago, the mayor there, Chicago, it's lost.

00:26:03.820 There's no turning around.

00:26:05.000 Once they elected this far left dem, when they could have had somebody who was a little bit

00:26:08.560 more middle of the road, it was lost.

00:26:10.700 So this new mayor there, Brandon Johnson, is now saying that he wants reparations to the

00:26:17.180 black people of Chicago as a cure to Chicago's crime rate.

00:26:23.120 To the homicides in Chicago, he says, if you would just give reparations to the black people

00:26:28.440 in Chicago, you will lower the crime rate.

00:26:30.820 That's the solution that he's actually proposing now for his city.

00:26:35.720 Of course, paying absolutely no attention to the fact that there is no evidence that there

00:26:41.000 is a connection between crime and poverty.

00:26:43.420 That's not what's causing crime.

00:26:45.320 Poverty is not causing crime.

00:26:47.080 But that's the solution, Ben.

00:26:48.720 And who knows whether the citizens of Chicago are going to go for it, like we've seen some

00:26:54.200 willingness in San Francisco and California, your old state.

00:26:56.340 I mean, obviously, that's total craziness.

00:26:58.740 I mean, the same thing that causes crime very often causes poverty, which is bad decision

00:27:03.240 making.

00:27:03.980 It doesn't mean not in terms of where you start, but certainly in terms of where you finish.

00:27:07.780 I mean, there are certain decisions that you can make in life that make it significantly

00:27:10.460 less likely that you're going to end your life in poverty or spend significant portions

00:27:13.860 of your life in poverty.

00:27:15.000 And one of the things that cuts against making those good decisions is a welfare system, a system

00:27:19.820 of payments by government that are designed to alleviate the consequences of your own

00:27:23.520 action, is that this idea of helicoptering cash around high crime areas, as though that's

00:27:27.300 going to alleviate the crime rate, as that's going to change how people make their decisions

00:27:31.140 is totally wrong.

00:27:32.700 And that was the premise of the entire Great Society program that was pushed by the LBJ

00:27:36.500 administration back in the 60s.

00:27:37.720 We've tried that for half a century, and it has not alleviated in the slightest many of

00:27:41.460 these social maladies that we're talking about, from crime to single motherhood to the

00:27:44.920 poverty rate.

00:27:46.480 Helicoptering cash around doesn't change the underlying decision-making structure that actually

00:27:50.420 allows people to escape poverty and build excellent lives for themselves.

00:27:55.000 But it does make a great pitch if you're a politician, because the worst thing you can

00:27:59.100 say if you're a politician, this is true on all sides, the worst thing you can say if

00:28:01.560 you're a politician is that 90% of your problems are your own making.

00:28:04.400 That's a very difficult thing for politicians to say, because it's a difficult thing for people

00:28:07.420 to hear.

00:28:07.900 Much easier to say, no, no, no, it's somebody else's fault, and they need some form of reparations

00:28:12.000 from you in order for them to fix all of their problems.

00:28:14.860 You know, Black scholars have been saying this for quite some time, but they say if you want

00:28:20.620 to make sure you avoid poverty, graduate from high school, get a job, get married, have a

00:28:28.160 child, in that order.

00:28:30.000 It's pretty simple.

00:28:31.260 Like, if you just do those few things, you've set yourself up for success much better than

00:28:35.760 somebody who hasn't, and it doesn't have anything to do with money being given to you

00:28:39.980 by some pandering politician, but the obsession with race, you know, reducing everybody to

00:28:46.100 the color of their skin, promoting it as though it really means something about character continues

00:28:49.860 at every level of our society, whether it's the Chicago mayor looking at the Chicago projects

00:28:55.900 and saying, here's the solution, or whether it's Claudine Gay holding onto her job as the

00:29:02.200 president of Harvard, despite how many instances now of plagiarism?

00:29:08.020 We're running out of numbers.

00:29:08.700 One of my favorite things over the holidays was seeing all the Twitter memes of, like,

00:29:13.880 Claude Luke Babylon B had one headline, which was, Claudine Gay rallies people to her side

00:29:19.360 in the midst of plagiarism scandal with inspiring, I have a dream speech.

00:29:25.060 She's become a literal joke.

00:29:27.320 Yeah, I mean, it is amazing.

00:29:28.580 And honestly, I'm glad that Harvard's keeping her there, because I don't think that Harvard

00:29:31.760 should be able to shield itself from the criticism it's receiving simply by firing Claudine Gay.

00:29:35.100 She's part of a broader system of corrupt thought that has just honeycombed its way through nearly

00:29:40.740 all of our major universities and institutions.

00:29:43.780 And getting rid of Claudine Gay doesn't fix the problem.

00:29:45.500 It's the entire DEI substructure that, again, is present in nearly every major institution

00:29:50.140 and virtually all of our colleges that has destroyed higher education completely.

00:29:54.240 And Claudine Gay is a perfect example of this.

00:29:55.700 She was always, at best, a mediocre scholar.

00:29:57.760 Her publication history was nothing special.

00:29:59.360 She was put in place specifically to fill a particular diversity quota.

00:30:03.740 And that is the reason that she's not being fired right now, because if there are any other

00:30:07.300 major university president who, let's say, was a white man who was found to have engaged

00:30:12.320 in this level of plagiarism, they would have been gone yesterday.

00:30:14.540 I mean, by the way, if you're a white lady and you're a university of Pennsylvania, you're

00:30:17.160 already gone.

00:30:18.120 I mean, the one who's escaped censure so far, by the way, is the president of MIT.

00:30:21.500 I think that is going to come soon.

00:30:23.340 The president of MIT so far has escaped the blowback from the Elise Stefanik hearing near the end

00:30:27.300 of the last year, all about whether you're allowed to call for the genocide of Jews on

00:30:30.900 campus without any sort of consequence.

00:30:32.500 But Claudine Gay, being able to live through all of this, is just another example of how

00:30:37.760 DEI is corrupt.

00:30:39.600 It's evil.

00:30:40.520 It leads to a belief that you are owed something based on the color of your skin or based on

00:30:44.760 your group identity.

00:30:45.960 And that sort of politics simply can't be sustained in a rational state.

00:30:51.040 It's so pervasive, this ridiculousness of like Claudine Gay, the Free Beacon just had another

00:30:55.800 six instances of plagiarism examples by her that just came out.

00:30:59.740 As you point out, most people who get appointed to the position of president of a university like

00:31:03.960 Harvard have been established scholars.

00:31:06.960 They've written multiple books, textbooks that have become the textbook when it comes to a

00:31:11.960 certain subject matter.

00:31:13.120 She had written like 11 to 17, depending on what you consider a scholarly article, scholarly

00:31:18.780 articles.

00:31:19.420 That's it.

00:31:20.120 No books.

00:31:20.760 And now in more than half of those or something like half of those, they have repeated instances

00:31:26.400 of plagiarism, which the school just keeps downplaying as like unsighted or unsighted

00:31:31.960 works, like unsighted sentences.

00:31:34.700 And in the latest instances by the Free Beacon, there's no citation whatsoever.

00:31:38.720 She's plagiarized without even citing the guy.

00:31:41.000 Maybe she stuffs his name in the bibliography, but she takes full paragraphs of somebody else's

00:31:45.400 work, shoves them into her piece as though it's Claudine Gay's original thought.

00:31:48.860 And truly, I mean, I know I I'm kind of enjoying this because I do think the name Harvard is

00:31:54.040 becoming a joke.

00:31:55.080 And honestly, I feel for the black students there in particular, because now more than

00:31:59.040 ever, people are looking at them like, well, we totally get what your university stands

00:32:03.040 for.

00:32:03.340 And we have no reason to believe you earned your way in there.

00:32:06.020 And we have no reason to believe you belong there at all, because now we see what they

00:32:08.560 do when it comes to academic and ethical standards for people of color.

00:32:12.140 So Harvard, ironically, is humiliating its black students day by day, even though they

00:32:18.080 may or may not have been diversity, you know, admittance or or or professors who got accepted

00:32:23.980 based on one of the things that's amazing about this is that if you actually look at

00:32:26.740 the history of who Harvard gets rid of, it's it is pretty astonishing.

00:32:31.740 Right.

00:32:31.820 Larry Summers was the president of Harvard when I was at the law school over there, and they

00:32:35.120 got rid of him because he committed the grave sin of suggesting that maybe there weren't

00:32:38.580 enough women in science is because women didn't actually like going into STEM jobs nearly as

00:32:41.780 much as they liked going into jobs where they weren't working with like machines, but they

00:32:45.240 actually liked working with human beings.

00:32:46.740 They got rid of him over that.

00:32:48.660 Cloudyne Gay and her and the people she was involved with at the upper levels of administration

00:32:52.080 at Harvard got rid of an excellent black scholar named Roland Fryer over allegations

00:32:56.400 that I believe ended up being debunked of some sort of sexual harassment.

00:33:00.380 It was complete nonsense.

00:33:01.380 And Roland Fryer is an excellent scholar.

00:33:02.860 I mean, his stuff is really fascinating.

00:33:04.220 He doesn't happen to be particularly right wing.

00:33:05.860 He sort of sent her to the road at best.

00:33:07.440 And they got rid of him over that.

00:33:09.080 If he'd been a hardcore left wing DEI scholar, would they've gotten rid of him over that?

00:33:13.360 I have very serious doubts about that particular reality.

00:33:16.560 So again, the badge, the kind of immunity that you get from being a left wing Harvard

00:33:23.600 black woman is apparently just unbreakable.

00:33:26.860 That's an unbreakable level of immunity, apparently.

00:33:29.340 That's and the left wing piece is important.

00:33:31.260 It is important because Roland Fryer, of course, you know, like as you point out, this is a black

00:33:36.360 man, but his big sin was he committed he did a study that did not confirm bias in police

00:33:44.660 shootings by, you know, white cops against black men.

00:33:47.700 He did not find a trend showing that you're more likely to get shot by a white cop if you're

00:33:51.580 a black man.

00:33:52.080 And suddenly he had all these I mean, they were B.S.

00:33:54.520 Me too problems that ended his lab, his research lab at Harvard.

00:33:58.060 And then there was the other professor who was like a dean of one of the schools who made

00:34:02.700 the sin of representing.

00:34:03.720 I think it was Harvey Weinstein.

00:34:05.520 Right.

00:34:05.980 That's too right wing for that.

00:34:07.640 Like they've punished black scholars at Harvard, but not not ones that are left wing or adhering

00:34:13.840 to left wing causes like Claudine.

00:34:15.860 So they really are a sort of fork in the road now when it comes to this woman.

00:34:20.520 But I agree with you.

00:34:21.680 I'm enjoying watching them suffer with her at the helm.

00:34:23.940 So duplicative language, that's what they're calling it, duplicative language that she's

00:34:28.400 been using.

00:34:29.420 I mean, really, I look forward to seeing some student just completely copy somebody else's

00:34:33.160 like very well-known thesis or doctoral dissertation.

00:34:37.140 And just what do you mean?

00:34:38.440 It's duplicative language.

00:34:39.620 How what?

00:34:40.260 You know, like somebody's got to put this to the test at the student level.

00:34:43.700 And I really hope it's a white guy who doesn't fall into any diversity box.

00:34:47.380 All right, Ben, stand by quick break.

00:34:48.820 More with you just ahead.

00:34:49.960 Ben, I'm sure you are not wanting to discuss this, so I'll just hit it quickly and we'll

00:34:58.040 move on.

00:34:58.560 But you've been in the news over the past couple of days because you and Tucker have been kind

00:35:02.340 of going back and forth on Israel, who's right and that kind of thing.

00:35:04.840 And it's gotten a little personal on his end a couple of times, including in an interview

00:35:10.620 he gave to Sagar and Jetty, in which Sagar mentioned you in particular and some of the

00:35:15.080 skirmishes and the disagreements you guys have had on Israel.

00:35:17.340 Here's what Tucker said.

00:35:18.480 There are people on the right who have spent the last two months every single day focused

00:35:24.620 on a conflict in a foreign country as their own country becomes dangerously unstable on

00:35:29.240 the brink of financial collapse with tens of millions of people who shouldn't be here

00:35:33.840 in the country.

00:35:34.400 We don't know their identities or the purpose of their being here, like stuff that could

00:35:38.380 destroy the country for real and make it impossible for my kids to live here.

00:35:41.920 They've said nothing about that.

00:35:43.360 And they're focused with laser intensity on foreign conflicts.

00:35:46.120 They don't care about the country at all.

00:35:48.060 And that's, you know, that's kind of their prerogative.

00:35:50.920 But I do because I have no choice because I'm from here.

00:35:54.780 My family's been here hundreds of years.

00:35:55.960 I plan to stay here.

00:35:57.120 Like, I'm shocked by how little they care about the country and including the person

00:36:01.520 you mentioned.

00:36:02.420 And I can't imagine how someone like that could get an audience of people who claimed

00:36:06.560 to care about America because he doesn't, obviously.

00:36:10.040 Right?

00:36:10.280 Right.

00:36:11.080 Your reaction to that?

00:36:12.780 I mean, a bit of an astonishing statement there from Tucker.

00:36:15.380 I would never doubt his love for the country, even though he and I disagree wildly about

00:36:18.920 a number of topics.

00:36:20.720 First of all, he attributes to me a bunch of things that simply are not true.

00:36:23.520 If anybody has listened to my show, which has a few listeners, over the course of the

00:36:26.800 last several months, you'll see that I talk about all the issues that he mentions there,

00:36:29.860 including the border issue, all the time.

00:36:31.880 If you watch my show, he actually attributes to me, I believe, in that interview, the view

00:36:36.640 that, for example, the United States has some sort of duty to import Palestinians from

00:36:41.200 Gaza.

00:36:41.720 I've overtly opposed that because it's ridiculous, silly, and be awful for the United States

00:36:45.780 of America.

00:36:46.860 So he just attributes to me a bunch of views I don't hold and then proceeds to say that

00:36:50.360 I don't care about the country.

00:36:52.260 Yeah, obviously, that's silly and that's untrue.

00:36:55.360 I think it's part and parcel of something that Tucker has had a habit of doing recently,

00:36:59.420 which is, we disagree, therefore, you don't care about the people that I care about.

00:37:03.120 You don't care about the country.

00:37:04.440 As for the notion, by the way, that his people have been here for hundreds of years, all four

00:37:08.220 of my grandparents on both sides have been here since the early 1900s.

00:37:11.160 So over a century, my family has been here on both sides of the aisle.

00:37:14.940 I also have no intention of moving.

00:37:16.380 So I don't know what more there is to say about that other than it's an absurd accusation.

00:37:21.800 It's unfortunate.

00:37:22.820 I certainly don't feel that way about Tucker as much as I disagree with Tucker, as we've

00:37:26.620 said, on a wide variety of issues.

00:37:28.140 No, I don't either.

00:37:30.560 He loves America and so do you.

00:37:31.980 And I know you both very well.

00:37:33.200 So it's unfortunate to see that the kind of skirmish.

00:37:36.020 But to me, whatever, you guys will move past it.

00:37:39.160 What's more interesting about the whole thing, Ben, is we are seeing a very fractured right.

00:37:44.220 I mean, a very fractured right, right?

00:37:45.680 You've got the America First crowd.

00:37:47.900 You've got the neocons.

00:37:49.220 I never really considered you a neocon.

00:37:50.980 I mean, our friends over at Commentary, John Podoretz, Noah Rothman, now he's at National

00:37:55.020 Review, open neocons.

00:37:56.540 That's not how I see you.

00:37:59.380 How do you describe yourself and how do you see like what's happening now within Republican

00:38:03.860 within conservative circles, unlike sort of this?

00:38:07.800 It's not as strong as to call it a civil war, but there are real differences that are leading

00:38:12.500 people like Tucker to say if Trump were to choose Nikki Haley as his vice president, I

00:38:17.380 would actively campaign against the ticket.

00:38:19.540 There would be a complete meltdown on, you know, on Team MAGA.

00:38:22.940 I mean, honestly, it would be fascinating to see if Tucker actually did that, if Trump

00:38:27.840 did pick Nikki Haley, because that would be de facto campaigning, I would assume, in favor

00:38:31.840 of Joe Biden by that same sort of logic, because presumably one of those two people is going

00:38:35.680 to be president of the United States.

00:38:37.260 But when it comes to, you know, the fractures on the right, of course, there are a lot of

00:38:40.320 fractures on the right.

00:38:41.020 There have historically been a lot of fractures on the right going all the way back to battles

00:38:43.640 between William F. Buckley and Pat Buchanan.

00:38:45.420 I mean, there's nothing new that's happening here on the right.

00:38:48.500 It's just louder.

00:38:49.440 And I think that's because there is no sort of guiding voice of ideology inside the conservative

00:38:54.120 movement writ large or inside the Republican Party, because Donald Trump, who is the leader

00:38:58.320 of the conservative movement or Republican Party until deposed, he doesn't have a thorough

00:39:02.920 going ideology and he's open to a bunch of different perspectives, meaning sometimes he

00:39:06.840 sounds a lot like Tucker on foreign policy and sometimes he sounds a lot like me on foreign

00:39:09.520 policy.

00:39:09.920 And there's a lot of in between, you know, when it comes to sort of the arguments about

00:39:14.160 foreign policy, you know, where I put myself is in sort of the in sort of the hawkish realist

00:39:20.040 camp, meaning that there are a lot of conflicts in which the United States should not be involved.

00:39:24.020 But a complete United States isolationist retreat from the world is going to make for a significantly

00:39:28.340 more dangerous world.

00:39:29.360 So, for example, I don't think the United States should go to war in Iran.

00:39:32.300 I don't think the United States has an interest in war with Iran.

00:39:34.600 I think what the United States does have an interest in, however, is, for example, destroying

00:39:38.980 the Houthi ability to to stop up the shipping in the Red Sea, the Suez Canal and the Babel

00:39:44.320 Mount of Strait.

00:39:44.880 I mean, those are areas where the United States has a very strong interest in the freedom of

00:39:48.220 the seas, not just because 10 percent of all world oil goes through that particular area,

00:39:52.440 but also because if you don't actually demonstrate that the United States, through our naval power,

00:39:57.140 is willing to guarantee freedom of the seas, there's a pretty solid shot that China is going

00:40:00.600 to blockade Taiwan and then bottle up the Taiwan Straits, which is going to block up world

00:40:04.740 trade almost entirely and therefore lead to a massive economic recession, which does

00:40:08.880 impact American citizens.

00:40:10.360 I think that there's a view of foreign policy that basically things that happen far away

00:40:13.380 don't affect Americans.

00:40:14.220 I think that that's wrong.

00:40:15.660 I think that we can have debates over which area particular foreign conflicts fall into.

00:40:21.740 But again, I think there's a sort of black and white rhetoric that's very often used

00:40:25.720 with regard to arguments in which views are misattributed and accusations are made about

00:40:31.860 policies that people don't even actually hold.

00:40:34.380 And that I find weird.

00:40:35.160 All right.

00:40:37.000 Let's talk politics for one second, because it's a good segue into it.

00:40:40.680 What happened in Maine?

00:40:42.160 What happened in Colorado over the past week to 10 days?

00:40:45.640 I mean, do you agree with my assessment that there is zero chance the U.S. Supreme Court

00:40:48.660 keeps Trump off of the ballots, upholds these decisions that he ought to be removed because

00:40:53.660 he engaged in a, quote, insurrection?

00:40:56.000 The Supreme Court's obviously going to strike it down.

00:40:57.580 But the whole purpose of Democrats pushing this thing up to the Supreme Court level, which is

00:41:01.660 what was going to happen the minute the Colorado Supreme Court did what it did.

00:41:04.820 The whole purpose here is to delegitimize the Supreme Court.

00:41:07.440 I think folks have to understand this has almost nothing to do with the ability of these

00:41:11.420 states to boot Trump from the ballot.

00:41:13.000 The goal here is to continue to undermine the credibility and faith in the Supreme Court,

00:41:17.500 therefore, to allow, if Joe Biden got a second term, the packing of the Supreme Court

00:41:21.200 or the attempt to depose certain justices or the impeachment of members of the Supreme

00:41:25.140 Court.

00:41:25.380 You saw Jamie Raskin over the weekend do this with regard to Clarence Thomas, suggesting that

00:41:28.800 Thomas should recuse himself in the Colorado or Maine cases, despite the fact that, again,

00:41:34.060 Clarence Thomas is not involved in the election of 2024.

00:41:38.400 The idea is that because Ginny Thomas is pro-Trump and because Ginny Thomas, Clarence's wife,

00:41:43.460 was a believer that the election was stolen, this means that Thomas can't sound off on whether

00:41:48.120 or not the law allows for the simple booting of candidates for no criminal offense whatsoever.

00:41:54.580 Again, the fact that the Colorado Supreme Court did what it did is totally insane.

00:41:57.580 The Supreme Court's going to strike it down, but I just don't think it's really about whether

00:42:00.220 Trump makes the ballot or not.

00:42:01.600 This is the thing that scares me about the 2024 election.

00:42:04.020 I think that the stage is set, that no matter how this election goes, things are going to

00:42:07.080 get hideous right after the election.

00:42:09.660 Can you imagine, Megan, any situation in which people go quietly if Trump wins?

00:42:13.280 I mean, it's just not going to happen.

00:42:14.560 I mean, it's going to be totally insane because they've set it up that Trump is a fascist who

00:42:18.900 is going to actively threaten democracy if allowed to be president again.

00:42:23.100 And so you will get large scale riots.

00:42:24.480 Because similarly, if Trump loses the election to Biden, if he's the nominee and he loses

00:42:28.420 the election to Biden, Trump is going to say the same thing this time that he said last

00:42:31.440 time and with actually significantly more credibility, right?

00:42:33.580 He's going to say the election was stolen from me.

00:42:35.460 And one of the ways the election will have been stolen from him is in the militarization

00:42:38.560 of law enforcement against him, four separate criminal trials in four separate jurisdictions,

00:42:43.440 all of which are either specious or strained.

00:42:46.500 And all of it directed at kicking him off the ballot in particular areas or in having him

00:42:53.220 lose the election via the use of, for example, the Department of Justice.

00:42:56.600 He's going to have a lot of credibility in saying that sort of stuff.

00:42:58.760 And so if Biden wins, there's going to be a feeling on the other side that the election

00:43:01.480 was illegitimate.

00:43:02.360 I mean, this is setting up rifts in our society that are almost impossible to bridge, specifically

00:43:07.240 because we spent 50 years destroying all the intermediate institutions of society that

00:43:10.800 used to bridge the gaps, right?

00:43:11.880 It used to be that even if you disagreed with the guy next to you about who to vote for

00:43:16.080 in the election, you went to the same, you went to the same church, but if the church

00:43:19.100 no longer exists, and I just hate that guy because he's next door, you don't even know

00:43:21.920 him and he's going to vote for the guy who's going to destroy the country.

00:43:26.700 I don't think the U.S. Supreme Court will do anything to delegitimize itself in this whole

00:43:31.560 thing.

00:43:31.860 I think we're likely to get possibly a 9-0, a 7-2 ruling in Trump's favor, and they'll find

00:43:37.520 some ground other than saying he did not commit an insurrection.

00:43:40.960 They'll say something about the 14th Amendment.

00:43:43.480 The language doesn't apply to a president.

00:43:45.280 There are other ways for them to come together and avoid getting—they know, they remember

00:43:49.360 what Bush v. Gore did to them, not to the country, but to them, the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:43:53.680 I just don't think they're going to take the bait.

00:43:55.500 They're way too smart for Jamie Raskin.

00:43:58.120 That's my prediction.

00:43:59.140 We'll see whether it holds.

00:44:00.880 Okay, let's talk a little bit about the GOP primary, such as it is.

00:44:04.380 Trump is completely dominant going into, you know, here we are a couple weeks out from

00:44:08.100 Iowa and New Hampshire, and then Super Tuesday in March will be here before we know it.

00:44:12.660 DeSantis now basically tied with Nikki Haley, which is not good news for DeSantis.

00:44:16.640 She's been edging up, though they're both so far behind Trump, it's kind of not even worth

00:44:20.820 mentioning.

00:44:21.740 Big article in the New York Times a couple days ago from one of his top campaign aides saying

00:44:26.760 that DeSantis—that they're basically in the keep the patient comfortable stage of his campaign,

00:44:33.240 which is just a devastating line—it's kind of mean—it may be true.

00:44:38.840 So what do you make of where DeSantis is, where Haley is, and where Trump is?

00:44:43.480 Yeah, I mean, basically, there is only one route for this primary process to continue beyond South

00:44:48.780 Carolina, and that's at this point for DeSantis to pull off some sort of upset win in Iowa,

00:44:53.940 Haley to finish second, Haley to win New Hampshire.

00:44:56.120 She goes down to South Carolina.

00:44:57.440 It's her home state.

00:44:58.680 She wins the state somehow, and now it's sort of an open ballgame for Trump to lose all three

00:45:02.560 of the first primaries.

00:45:03.260 I think if Trump wins Iowa, he's very likely to then run the table.

00:45:06.120 I think he's likely to win New Hampshire based on that momentum and then win South Carolina

00:45:09.000 based on that momentum.

00:45:11.300 There are a bunch of problems inside the sort of opposition to Trump, but the biggest one

00:45:15.500 is that Trump is very popular inside the Republican Party, period.

00:45:18.160 I mean, it's very strange.

00:45:19.380 You have almost the opposite situation with the Democratic Party.

00:45:21.940 So among the base, the Democratic Party really does not like Joe Biden, but the elite understand

00:45:26.120 that he has to be the guy because if it's anybody else, it's a mess.

00:45:28.820 On the other side of the aisle, the elite and the Republican Party are like, man, I really wish it

00:45:32.280 weren't Trump, but the base really, really likes Trump.

00:45:34.400 And that's, yeah, I feel bad for DeSantis to that extent because, you know, in terms of

00:45:39.220 governance, he's much more conservative just as a person who governs than Donald Trump was.

00:45:43.880 He's a person who knows actually how to govern, I think, better than Trump did based on where

00:45:47.740 knowing where the levers of power are.

00:45:49.480 If the primary were held in my home state, which is Florida today, I would vote for DeSantis.

00:45:52.920 But the love for Trump inside the Republican Party remains.

00:45:56.160 It's not going anywhere.

00:45:57.000 It's jogged every time he's unjustly persecuted by the DOJ and all the rest.

00:46:01.820 And so he's in sort of no win situation.

00:46:04.760 And meanwhile, he's being threatened on his flank by Nikki Haley.

00:46:08.320 Many of Nikki Haley's people are exactly the sort of old school establishment Republicans

00:46:12.360 who would love Nikki Haley above DeSantis, right?

00:46:15.420 Even if it were a Haley-DeSantis race, they would like Haley more than DeSantis.

00:46:18.860 And so they're backing Haley.

00:46:19.780 But that's splitting whatever possibility of support there is in an anti-Trump move.

00:46:23.780 I mean, what people, I think, in the Nikki Haley camp are sort of missing, the people

00:46:26.880 who are promoting the idea that she's the real rival to Trump as opposed to somebody

00:46:29.960 like DeSantis, is that if DeSantis drops out of the race, a lot of his support is going

00:46:34.100 to go to Trump.

00:46:34.960 The number two, I mean, if Nikki drops out of the race, her support probably goes to

00:46:39.540 DeSantis.

00:46:40.120 If DeSantis drops out of the race, I would say at least half his support probably spills

00:46:43.420 over to Trump.

00:46:44.200 So ironically, Nikki actually needs Ron in the race in order to guarantee her a shot at, say,

00:46:50.040 New Hampshire and South Carolina.

00:46:51.160 If he drops out before that, Trump's going to consolidate that base of support.

00:46:54.520 And I think that Trump probably finishes her off in South Carolina is sort of the math

00:46:57.700 here.

00:46:58.760 There was one outlier poll that showed her within a few points of Trump in New Hampshire.

00:47:03.620 The poll is given, I think, a C-plus rating by RealClearPolitics.

00:47:07.180 It's not really respected.

00:47:08.820 But there was one showing her a little close to Trump.

00:47:12.580 All of this sort of she's going to win New Hampshire stuff kind of requires on Chris Christie

00:47:16.840 jumping out of the race and giving her, you know, would they presume, again, his 10 percent

00:47:21.480 because that's all Democrats.

00:47:23.060 And she's sort of the closest thing in the Republican field that they might find acceptable.

00:47:27.280 She's a little bit more moderate on some social issues.

00:47:30.000 He was one of the first to attack her when she had her slavery gaffe over the holidays,

00:47:34.100 which was just absurd.

00:47:35.820 She was asked by, yes, it was obviously a Democrat plant.

00:47:38.380 What caused the Civil War?

00:47:39.980 And she didn't fucking say slavery.

00:47:41.580 I mean, it's just stupid.

00:47:42.420 It was I don't know why she did it, whatever.

00:47:44.420 It was a dumb ass answer.

00:47:45.680 She sounded terrible.

00:47:47.640 But I did think it was interesting.

00:47:49.060 Christie was one of the first to pounce on it.

00:47:50.740 Didn't suggest to me he's getting ready to jump out and suggest his 10 percent go to her.

00:47:55.400 Well, first of all, the forces of gravity prevent him from jumping anywhere.

00:47:57.800 But beyond that, Chris Christie is not a person who should be in this race at all.

00:48:02.940 He exists apparently only to commit political murder suicides, right?

00:48:06.420 He did it in 2016 against Marco Rubio.

00:48:08.580 Rubio had a bunch of momentum coming off Iowa and going into New Hampshire.

00:48:11.280 And then, of course, there's that debate where Christie basically shellacked him,

00:48:15.280 but blew himself up at the same time.

00:48:16.760 So both of them end up being casualties of war in that particular race.

00:48:20.260 And then you see the same thing happening now.

00:48:22.140 Chris, there's no reason for Christie to be in this race.

00:48:24.260 I mean, if he really opposes Trump that strongly, he should get out and he should endorse Haley

00:48:27.200 because she's the only one who has a shot in New Hampshire.

00:48:29.300 Once again, you know, politics is a hell of a drug.

00:48:31.920 And there are so many politicians who believe they've been sort of a God-given tap on the shoulder

00:48:36.940 that they are going to be president.

00:48:38.000 And guys, spoiler alert, virtually all of you are not going to be.

00:48:41.340 And that's particularly true of Chris Christie, who about this time, three weeks from now,

00:48:45.360 is going to be getting Trump coffee again.

00:48:47.500 Yeah, he's ripping on her.

00:48:48.820 He's ripping on Haley for, among other things, saying nice things about Trump in his first term.

00:48:53.420 Chris Christie gave Trump an A on his first term when asked to rate it

00:48:57.580 before he decided he was the answer to the GOP's problems in this race.

00:49:01.420 So it's like, whatever.

00:49:03.080 Chris Christie has zero chance.

00:49:04.340 He's trying to rebuild the reputation that he ruined himself with Republican voters.

00:49:08.260 This is not the way, my friend.

00:49:10.180 Ben Shapiro, such a pleasure as always.

00:49:12.480 Thanks for coming on.

00:49:14.180 Great to see you.

00:49:15.660 All right.

00:49:16.020 So check him out over on The Daily Wire, or you can subscribe to him on YouTube

00:49:19.220 and get Ben's take on all the day's news, which I listen to as well.

00:49:23.220 And like Debbie Murphy, Canadian Debbie, I've gotten to the point where I can listen to Ben on 2.0.

00:49:27.300 I like to take in my podcast at 2.0 because then you can get through a bunch of them.

00:49:29.980 Even Ben, who talks so fast, you can adjust yourself to getting the Ben Shapiro podcast

00:49:35.640 in 2.0, and I highly recommend taking it at any speed.

00:49:39.600 We're going to be right back with those two IRS whistleblowers.

00:49:42.700 A lot happened with Hunter Biden over the past couple of weeks, and a lot is about to happen

00:49:47.060 to Hunter Biden and their thoughts on this critical moment that happened when they testified

00:49:52.360 before closed doors on whether there is direct evidence linking Joe to hit those crimes.

00:49:56.900 Stand by.

00:49:59.980 It is shaping up to be a very busy January for politics and the law as Hunter Biden's

00:50:06.340 legal troubles threaten to overshadow his father's re-election campaign.

00:50:10.520 I mean, this month and beyond, this thing's not going away.

00:50:13.980 In just one week from now, Hunter is expected in court to be arraigned on tax charges, felony

00:50:19.560 tax charges.

00:50:21.020 This comes as a separate gun case against him moves forward.

00:50:24.560 That gun case is interesting because he's raising Second Amendment arguments that the right

00:50:29.620 has been using to challenge some of Joe Biden's gun laws.

00:50:34.040 Now, Hunter Biden's using the same arguments to challenge the case against him.

00:50:38.460 And he also has, Hunter does, his own civil lawsuit against the IRS.

00:50:44.380 That relates in part to my next guests.

00:50:48.760 They're actually at the center of this whole story.

00:50:50.920 Last year, they came forward to allege sweeping political interference in the Hunter Biden tax

00:50:56.520 case that had initially resulted in a sweetheart plea deal for the first son.

00:51:01.940 And that plea deal would have gone through giving him total immunity on everything other than these

00:51:06.560 misdemeanor BS charges.

00:51:08.120 Had it not been for that smart judge who started paying attention to what was being put before

00:51:13.240 her after these whistleblowers came forward, the deal was ultimately tossed by the judge.

00:51:17.840 And months later, Hunter was indeed indicted on what remained of the case.

00:51:22.640 You remember that this David Weiss, the U.S. attorney for Delaware, and now the special counsel

00:51:28.800 investigating Hunter, he's the fixes in.

00:51:31.740 We've said for a while, we believe this guy is not an honest broker, but he's the one who

00:51:35.900 tried to shove this plea deal through, and he ultimately was forced to do what he should

00:51:41.800 have done, which is indict Hunter on the remaining charges after he let the statute of limitations

00:51:45.660 run on the most serious ones, the ones that would have linked Hunter and his nefarious overseas

00:51:51.000 dealings potentially to Joe.

00:51:53.400 So the whistleblowers have been raising the red flag about all of this.

00:51:57.820 They have been smeared repeatedly.

00:52:00.320 I just went back for kicks just to see what the Hunter team was calling the whistleblowers as

00:52:04.700 they came forward to say, hey, there are real charges against this guy, and they've been

00:52:08.840 either slow rolled or allowed to expire by a complicit DOJ that's covering up for the

00:52:14.200 Bidens.

00:52:14.820 And in response to this, they were called disgruntled, biased, an ax to grind, aggrieved.

00:52:21.300 I could go on.

00:52:22.840 Well, David Weiss, who is, again, very sympathetic to the Bidens, appears to agree that the whistleblowers

00:52:29.940 had their facts all along.

00:52:32.560 Otherwise, he couldn't have charged these felonies.

00:52:34.680 Joining me now, the IRS whistleblowers, who gave us their first joint interview back in

00:52:38.800 July.

00:52:39.620 Gary Shapley, an IRS supervisory agent, and Joseph Ziegler, an IRS special agent.

00:52:46.080 Guys, welcome back to the show.

00:52:47.640 Thanks, Megan, for having us.

00:52:49.460 Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

00:52:51.340 So much has happened since you came on.

00:52:53.720 I mean, so much has happened, right?

00:52:55.280 The number one thing being David Weiss was indeed forced to indict several felony cases

00:53:02.480 or counts against Hunter for the very things you guys said he did and were called aggrieved

00:53:09.040 and biased and disgruntled for saying were legit crimes that ought to be charged.

00:53:15.160 So let me ask you first for your reaction.

00:53:17.660 I mean, do you feel vindicated?

00:53:19.340 Gary, I'll start with you.

00:53:20.460 So, yeah, I mean, all along we brought the facts forward.

00:53:22.800 And, you know, this wasn't something that we chose to do.

00:53:24.760 It was not something we wanted to do.

00:53:26.000 We had to do it because, you know, it's all about the equal protection of individuals

00:53:30.120 under the law.

00:53:30.900 And it was clear that the Delaware U.S. Attorney's Office and the Department of Justice wasn't

00:53:36.500 treating this particular taxpayer the same as he would anyone else.

00:53:40.180 So in terms of vindication, I don't really need to be vindicated.

00:53:45.240 I'm fine.

00:53:46.200 I'm going to be fine because I'm doing what I know is right.

00:53:49.020 But, yeah, I mean, him coming forward and charging what we, you know, Joe and I recommended

00:53:55.820 all along is just really support for the fact that DOJ needs to assign someone to come in

00:54:03.580 and look at Weiss's conduct and his team's conduct.

00:54:06.800 Joseph, when you saw that plea deal fall apart because that judge went through it with a fine

00:54:12.140 tooth comb and realized, though it had not been appropriately fronted to her, that they were

00:54:18.460 trying to give him this sweetheart deal that would have gotten him off on everything, on

00:54:22.380 everything, not just what was explicitly reflected.

00:54:26.240 Were you, I mean, you must have been so proud of her.

00:54:28.980 You must have just felt like, thank God, there's some, there are honest brokers left in this system.

00:54:33.080 Yeah, I felt, I felt at that point, listened to.

00:54:37.680 And after I reviewed that plea agreement and the statement of facts, I, I kind of understood

00:54:45.140 that they were misrepresenting stuff to the court.

00:54:48.060 And it was very apparent in that statement of facts that they put forward.

00:54:51.480 And the, and the crazy thing for me is that if that would have been pushed forward, we wouldn't

00:54:56.180 be sitting where we're at right now with a felony indictment for tax charges.

00:54:59.520 We wouldn't be sitting here right now, um, him awaiting these charges, all, all the things

00:55:05.080 that we said all along is the reason why Gary and I came forward, the equal treatment of

00:55:09.540 taxpayers.

00:55:10.020 That's so important in this.

00:55:12.700 So what do you make of the, of the actual charges that have been brought against him?

00:55:17.120 The felony counts, uh, on tax evasion out in California in particular, but again, not,

00:55:24.320 not for the years 14 or 15, the years he was dealing with Burisma and the Chinese energy

00:55:31.020 company, those did not make the dance because they left the statute of limitations required.

00:55:36.840 So what do you make, uh, Joseph on the, the actual charges that have been brought?

00:55:42.100 Yeah.

00:55:42.620 So I think that it's important for your listeners to understand that, um, in this indictment,

00:55:49.600 there are felony tax charges.

00:55:52.240 So all along the Biden family attorneys have been saying that all the taxes have been paid.

00:55:57.400 This is a civil issue.

00:55:58.680 Like we shouldn't be dealing with this anymore.

00:56:00.580 They would never charge this case.

00:56:02.360 But if you look at count six and seven in the indictment, it's the evasion tax evasion and

00:56:07.440 false return charges.

00:56:08.540 And those actually allege that Hunter willfully filed a false tax return and claim deductions

00:56:15.500 that he wasn't allowed to.

00:56:16.700 And that, that would come up with an amount of tax due and owing or additional taxes that

00:56:22.760 he's owed that is not paid to the IRS.

00:56:25.460 And any of those things, any of those things are, are, we would hold everyone else accountable

00:56:30.720 under the law and it's equal treatment under the law.

00:56:34.220 That's exactly what his lawyer says is not happening.

00:56:36.700 Abby Lowell, Gary saying any average citizen would not have had to pay, uh, it would not

00:56:42.760 be charged with these felonies.

00:56:44.020 And the only reason he's being charged is because his name is Hunter Biden saying he paid

00:56:49.360 back the money.

00:56:50.080 You know, he had the sugar daddy friend who paid back the money and the IRS under these

00:56:54.760 normal circumstances with a regular civilian would have said, you know what?

00:56:58.180 We got our dough.

00:56:59.280 Let's move on.

00:57:00.240 Is that true?

00:57:00.900 No, that's not even close to accurate.

00:57:04.680 I mean, you, you, we, early on, we gave a case that, um, uh, of Daryl D'Souza, who is

00:57:09.740 a, the police chief of Baltimore city who had, you know, a, a, a 10th of the tax loss and

00:57:16.060 they only charged him with misdemeanors.

00:57:17.640 And, uh, you know, he went to jail and, uh, you know, you can simply go to department just

00:57:21.720 tax division and they'll have press releases on, uh, cases that they work.

00:57:26.080 I mean, you, you can see hundreds of them in the last year or two where the tax losses

00:57:31.620 are much less, um, and the conduct is much less egregious where they're criminally prosecuting

00:57:37.640 these people.

00:57:38.320 And, you know, I have a long career of doing that as a supervisor and an agent.

00:57:42.160 And if this person, uh, with, with over a $2 million tax loss, um, was anyone else was

00:57:48.760 a corner store, they'd be in jail.

00:57:50.460 I mean, and, and it's just, it's just, uh, you know, uh, it's antithetical to the, to

00:57:55.800 the mission of IRS CI.

00:57:58.600 All right.

00:57:59.100 I've got to get into something.

00:58:00.100 This is a little in the weeds, but it's important.

00:58:02.660 And my audience is up to speed because we've been following it closely here on the show.

00:58:07.360 One of the key allegations that you made, and in particular you, Gary, you were, you were

00:58:12.880 running, you were the person running herd on this at the IRS.

00:58:15.180 Um, and Joseph's like one of the most respected investigators within the IRS.

00:58:20.000 Apparently that you guys are like special forces of the IRS working together on this.

00:58:23.820 Um, but one of the allegations you made when you first came forward was that you talked

00:58:29.560 to David Weiss, the U S attorney who was investigating this whole thing before he was made special

00:58:34.480 counsel after you came out saying, hello, we need something, need some, need some more

00:58:39.780 authority here was that you had a meeting with David Weiss when you were pushing for

00:58:45.700 him to indict this case.

00:58:47.300 And you were going to need to indict it in California and, um, in Washington DC where the

00:58:53.680 most serious charges were not just in Delaware where Weiss obviously had authority because

00:58:58.240 he was the U S attorney for, for Delaware.

00:59:00.280 And you documented in your notes, a meeting in which you said that David Weiss admitted to

00:59:05.600 you, I don't have the authority.

00:59:08.240 I don't have the authority to bring the charges myself in California and DC.

00:59:14.660 DOJ hasn't given me that.

00:59:16.520 And I've explained to the audience.

00:59:17.780 We've talked about this many times that happens often.

00:59:20.320 The U S attorney for Delaware would not have the authority to go charge something in California

00:59:24.360 normally, but they may be investigating a case in which crimes from their defendant have

00:59:29.160 occurred there.

00:59:29.880 So it's very simple.

00:59:31.080 They go to DOJ central and they ask for a permission slip and they get it.

00:59:34.740 And then they work with the U S attorney out in California or wherever to bring the case.

00:59:38.780 This is, it happens all the time, but you allege that David Weiss admitted to you.

00:59:43.240 He had not been given that authority because you were like, let's bring the charges in California.

00:59:48.160 Let's what, you know, why isn't it happening?

00:59:49.780 And he denied it.

00:59:51.860 He denied your charge.

00:59:54.480 And so did Merrick Garland.

00:59:56.700 They basically came out without using the word liar and called you one saying you're wrong.

01:00:03.360 He had full authority all along to do whatever he wanted.

01:00:09.320 And I'm going to play those sound bites.

01:00:10.660 And I want the audience to understand as they listen to them, David Weiss, once he got under

01:00:14.740 oath in front of Congress behind closed doors, admitted Gary was right.

01:00:19.660 All right.

01:00:19.860 So these statements are not true that I'm about to play for you, but they were said by Merrick

01:00:24.840 Garland, Garland repeatedly.

01:00:26.340 And I could do David Weiss's too, but they were on paper.

01:00:29.580 Here he is.

01:00:30.560 First of all, after you came forward in June, this is Merrick Garland saying the DOJ did not

01:00:36.540 block Weiss from prosecuting anywhere.

01:00:39.000 Here it is.

01:00:39.820 SOT 18.

01:00:41.620 I don't know how it would be possible for anybody to block him from bringing a prosecution,

01:00:46.480 given that he has this authority.

01:00:48.160 I'd say he was given complete authority to make all decisions on his own.

01:00:51.860 OK, so this is Merrick Garland, who clearly doesn't want responsibility for having said,

01:00:58.220 no, you're not getting the slip.

01:01:00.300 You're not getting the permission slip to bring those charges against Hunter.

01:01:03.840 And here he is in a longer montage saying similar things throughout this case, trying

01:01:08.120 to lead us all to believe he had given him complete authority.

01:01:11.080 It's all a David Weiss operation.

01:01:12.580 Me, Merrick Garland, who?

01:01:13.580 Me.

01:01:13.820 I only authorized everything.

01:01:15.060 I never stopped or slow rolled a thing.

01:01:17.540 SOT 20.

01:01:18.000 The U.S. attorney in Delaware has been advised that he has full authority to make those kind

01:01:25.640 of referrals that you're talking about or to bring cases in other jurisdictions if he

01:01:29.940 feels it's necessary.

01:01:31.660 And I will assure that if he does, he will be able to do that.

01:01:34.860 Weiss has told Congress that he has been granted ultimate authority over this matter.

01:01:40.200 Sir, Weiss had, in fact, more authority than a special counsel would have.

01:01:44.180 He has complete, he has, he had and has complete authority, as I said, to bring a case anywhere

01:01:49.940 he wants.

01:01:50.980 I don't know how it would be possible for anybody to block him from bringing a prosecution, given

01:01:56.300 that he has this authority.

01:01:57.700 He was given complete authority to make all decisions on his own.

01:02:03.900 Well, what we learned was that when David Weiss got called before Congress and actually

01:02:08.840 had to give testimony about this under oath, which is very different than putting out a paper

01:02:12.240 statement to the media, he, according to Jim Jordan, and then it was reported in the New

01:02:16.380 York Post, testified as possible when he was specifically asked, did you ever request

01:02:22.160 special attorney authority that you'd be labeled a special attorney if you were sort of the guy

01:02:26.580 from Delaware prosecuting in California or in D.C.?

01:02:30.000 Um, his answer was yes, that he did request it.

01:02:33.940 But if that it was not granted, he did ask to have the special permission slip in California,

01:02:41.020 in Washington, D.C., and he was told no by D.O.J.

01:02:46.220 So you were right.

01:02:48.040 And once again, they smeared you and then had to admit it when the rubber met the road.

01:02:54.500 Gary, what was your reaction when you heard that news?

01:02:57.980 Well, I'm just happy that he actually told the truth.

01:03:00.900 So, I mean, all along, I knew what the truth was and we knew what the facts were.

01:03:05.060 And we were, I was, I was made point for IRSCI with, to deal with David Weiss.

01:03:10.980 I had multiple meetings with David Weiss, calls with David Weiss on an ongoing basis.

01:03:16.020 And to see him, uh, you know, actually answer the question affirmatively and not legalize,

01:03:22.140 you know, legally some language and a letter was actually pretty comforting.

01:03:26.380 And it, and it gave me a little bit of faith restored, but, um, you know, at the October

01:03:32.300 7th meeting, um, I mean, everything that happened, we have a luxury now of seeing what happened,

01:03:36.460 you know, after the fact and, and everything that I said, all the notes I took contemporaneously

01:03:41.340 handwritten and then emailed to my supervisors have been absolutely confirmed.

01:03:45.360 And, uh, you know, I, I just, I knew all along what the truth was, it was just up to others

01:03:49.740 to tell the truth.

01:03:51.140 Just go through a couple of them.

01:03:52.780 So for the audience at home, that's not nearly as up to speed on this as you are go through

01:03:57.240 a couple of the ones that, you know, you, you've seen be vindicated in the months since

01:04:01.740 you first came out.

01:04:03.140 Sure.

01:04:03.600 So stop me when, uh, cause I go through them all.

01:04:06.020 So first was he's not deciding person, right.

01:04:08.640 And immediately under there, uh, there's a bullet in my notes.

01:04:11.740 It says department of justice tax division has to approve first.

01:04:15.600 Now, uh, Merrick Garland said, uh, that under oath that they didn't have to approve it, or

01:04:21.100 he wasn't sure if they had to approve it, but David Weiss, uh, a U S attorney Graves, U S

01:04:26.400 U S attorney Estrada, and the head of department of just tax division, uh, Stuart Goldberg all

01:04:32.260 confirmed that they needed DOJ tax permission before he could charge it.

01:04:35.720 And that permission was not given.

01:04:37.320 And it was held, um, all the way up through, uh, you know, beginning of 2023.

01:04:42.080 So he couldn't charge anywhere without their approval first.

01:04:45.080 So that's, that's the start.

01:04:46.700 Uh, then you move into the, the, the point that you were just talking about.

01:04:51.100 He went to the DC U S attorney's office to, to try to charge their, um, U S attorney Graves

01:04:57.800 even said that he would, the, the Weiss told him that he was looking to bring the charges in

01:05:04.020 that district.

01:05:04.680 And then he didn't, he wouldn't cooperate with him.

01:05:07.540 He wouldn't partner with him.

01:05:09.060 And, uh, you know, Weiss's June 30th letter says, I don't have authority outside of Delaware.

01:05:15.440 I would need, it was departmental process to, uh, to partner with that U S attorney, that

01:05:20.420 local U S attorney.

01:05:21.260 And if they don't, I'd have to request some type of special charging authority.

01:05:25.280 Now you find out that he did request that special charging authority, just like I wrote

01:05:30.060 in my notes and that email about the October 7th meeting.

01:05:33.500 How would I have known that he went to Maine DOJ to ask that special charging authority?

01:05:38.780 If he had not told me that he did so, he even used the same language.

01:05:42.760 He was told to follow the process.

01:05:44.640 And that's in lies.

01:05:46.040 The political, uh, uh, influence here is that they knew that that process led them through

01:05:51.220 two U S attorney, uh, Biden appointing United States attorneys.

01:05:54.360 So, I mean, the same thing happened when it went to California, I don't know why in March

01:06:00.000 of 2023, they brought it to DC and they didn't, they, he decided not to partner.

01:06:05.700 And then he's requesting all this stuff from Maine DOJ and getting denied that request to

01:06:09.560 all the follow process.

01:06:10.480 It took them six months to bring it to California.

01:06:13.560 The facts didn't change.

01:06:14.840 We already had all that evidence.

01:06:16.420 They know that we know that the facts and the law didn't change, but you know, it's interesting

01:06:21.040 to see the timing of that.

01:06:22.420 When did they bring it out and present it to central district, California in Los Angeles

01:06:26.700 the same week, the president Biden appointed United States attorney, Martin Estrada was

01:06:31.660 confirmed by Congress and began his time there.

01:06:34.320 So, I mean, we could, we could just go on and on with that.

01:06:36.820 Just to, just to put a fine point on it for the audience, you're saying once Biden got his

01:06:40.520 guy in there, then they were like, sure, you can go ask.

01:06:42.660 Sure.

01:06:43.200 See, see if they want to cooperate.

01:06:44.920 Why, why do you wait six months when the facts and laws don't change?

01:06:48.220 Right?

01:06:48.680 Like, why do you wait?

01:06:49.760 Is it just an amazing coincidence that they wait until that exact week?

01:06:54.660 I just find that, uh, they were worried that he was going to get a yes under the previous

01:07:00.460 guy.

01:07:01.040 They did not want him getting a yes.

01:07:04.380 Okay.

01:07:04.620 So if you look at what Estrada said, he actually said that he didn't have the resources to assist.

01:07:09.780 I mean, I mean, the Los Angeles U.S. Attorney's Office is one of the largest in the country.

01:07:15.580 And, and he went with, I didn't have the resources to assist.

01:07:19.240 When there was already two prosecutors assigned to the case and two Department of Justice Tax

01:07:24.480 Division attorneys who were sauces in the Central District of California, their special

01:07:28.880 United States attorneys there, they were going to prosecute the case.

01:07:32.540 So it required very little resources from Central District of California, other than some

01:07:36.480 administrative paperwork.

01:07:37.760 So, I mean, it's just, they just keep feeding lines and, uh, and it's really hurting DOJ's

01:07:42.560 reputation.

01:07:44.120 And, and just, um, so I have you say it instead of just me say it, the consequences of losing

01:07:49.720 now through all this 2014 and 2015 on any charges against Hunter, because the statute of limitations

01:07:56.600 ran is what the concept, what, what are we missing an investigation into in federal court?

01:08:03.760 Yeah, that's correct.

01:08:04.620 I mean, you, you bring 2014, 2015 and, and you charge them the way you should, the way

01:08:09.180 that the IRS senior leadership, they agreed in their testimonies, they agreed with those

01:08:14.160 charges.

01:08:14.740 We had, we had raised issues to them for years.

01:08:18.140 They disagreed with, with none of the issues we were raising.

01:08:21.040 They agreed that there were issues and yet, and then they agreed that 2014, 15 should be

01:08:25.440 charged and then they took no action to support us in that.

01:08:29.560 And they just put, but just underscore for the audience, what was in 15 and 14?

01:08:33.960 Like, what is it that, is it the Burisma stuff, the CEFC, Chinese energy company, like what

01:08:38.760 has Hunter now managed to dodge as a result of those two years expiring?

01:08:42.600 All of the conduct that he engaged in and resolved with the Burisma income in 2014 and 2015 is completely

01:08:49.340 left off the table.

01:08:50.600 And to bring that to trial and, and to bring that in front of the American people on a

01:08:55.280 trial, it would have raised, uh, several, uh, issues and investigative paths that would

01:09:01.900 have, uh, been very, uh, controversial for, uh, the, the Biden administration.

01:09:07.700 Mm-hmm.

01:09:08.620 So Joseph, you've been taking, you know, you're, you're the forensic guy, like you've been

01:09:11.880 looking first line into all of this stuff.

01:09:14.880 You were the guy who had all this data and had to figure it out.

01:09:17.300 And what did he do?

01:09:18.000 And he's saying it, this is your business expenses and they're prostitutes.

01:09:20.820 And I mean, you, I can only imagine what it was like to be you night after night as

01:09:24.600 you're like, came home from the office thinking, my God.

01:09:27.500 Um, but now, and just before we move on from the blowback against you, instead of saying,

01:09:32.940 you know what, Joseph was right.

01:09:34.800 I, I, I apologize to Joseph Ziegler.

01:09:37.200 I apologize to Gary Shapley, Abby Lowell, Hunter's attorney, the Democrats who are running

01:09:42.460 cover for the Bidens seem to be doubling down on you guys are just, you know, you're still

01:09:47.560 confused.

01:09:48.440 You're still confused.

01:09:49.060 For example, um, we've heard the chief cheerleader for the Bidens is Dan Goldman.

01:09:55.080 And this was Dan Goldman over the summer.

01:09:57.800 This was, this would have been before the current indictments were brought, but while

01:10:01.480 they were trying to shove this plea deal through, trying to explain your testimonials that Congress

01:10:06.780 had received.

01:10:07.420 Take a listen to him.

01:10:08.080 So 21.

01:10:08.460 I think they are good faith actors who, um, misconstrue the third hand information that

01:10:21.060 they received.

01:10:22.360 And I think that like many law enforcement agents, they want to charge every possible crime, but

01:10:30.040 they are not responsible for making that decision because they're not the ones who have to prove

01:10:35.400 it in court.

01:10:36.580 And ultimately, I think they worked really hard.

01:10:39.360 I think they were frustrated that, uh, the case didn't move forward as they had hoped after

01:10:43.820 all their hours.

01:10:44.800 Uh, they were frustrated that they were, uh, removed from the case after there were significant

01:10:51.160 leaks to the Washington post.

01:10:53.680 Uh, and they're expressing their frustration in this way.

01:10:56.440 A lot in there, clearly implying that you guys leaked and got removed from the case because

01:11:03.600 you're leakers.

01:11:04.700 And now you're just frustrated because you, you two dumb old IRS agents who don't know

01:11:09.760 anything like the big, bad, brilliant federal prosecutors.

01:11:13.460 You just didn't understand that there wasn't a case here to be brought.

01:11:17.480 And that really frustrated you, your thoughts.

01:11:20.100 Yeah.

01:11:21.960 So I think it's really important that people understand not in addition to our testimony,

01:11:27.300 we provided, I think I turned over six additional affidavits, thousands of pages of documents to support

01:11:35.940 my whistleblower claims.

01:11:37.780 And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's frustrating to, to, to hear that, but I expected it as a

01:11:45.140 whistleblower.

01:11:45.580 Where you expect people to attack you.

01:11:47.780 Um, and it, and it's why I've turned over things like I turned over my performance reviews.

01:11:52.360 I'm a highly rated employee at the IRS.

01:11:55.440 And I think that that was important that I'm not a disgruntled employee.

01:11:58.760 I actually brought up examples of a case where I work with that was super complex that we,

01:12:04.960 we didn't agree on the charging and we move forward with that.

01:12:08.920 And that was something that, okay, that, that made sense.

01:12:11.220 But in this case, all four attorneys agreed for the felony and misdemeanor charges.

01:12:16.180 They brought forward only misdemeanor charges.

01:12:19.540 And then he ends up getting special counsel.

01:12:21.900 That plea agreement falls apart, ends up getting special counsel.

01:12:24.920 And now we see the full picture of the indictment, um, presented in front of everybody.

01:12:29.620 And I think it's, it's important that people read through our most recent testimony to Congress,

01:12:36.740 the closed door testimony.

01:12:37.680 They read through that indictment, they see the conduct that was done over the last,

01:12:43.180 I think it's since 2014 is the first date that they, they start talking about things

01:12:48.120 in the indictment.

01:12:48.840 But I think it's important that your audience reads that.

01:12:51.920 What's amazing is you have Dan Goldman and others saying, I mean, really, he's basically

01:12:56.480 saying you're too dumb to understand like the person who went to law school, that there's

01:13:01.200 no case here.

01:13:02.120 There is no felony to be brought.

01:13:03.660 And the, like the perfect irony of the fact that David Weiss under this political pressure

01:13:08.880 was ultimately made quote, special counsel, which is different from special attorney, as

01:13:12.720 we explained.

01:13:13.700 And he is the one who brought the very charges that he, the big brain one, well, you know,

01:13:18.760 he was smarter and he knew you couldn't bring these charges.

01:13:21.600 Oh, so weird.

01:13:22.840 Oh, he had that perfect one 80 and wound up bringing all the charges that hadn't yet expired

01:13:27.440 based on all of your work.

01:13:29.900 So where do you go to get your reputation back, which I'm sure is one of your questions.

01:13:34.680 Yeah.

01:13:35.160 I mean, from, from, from talking to previous whistleblowers, it's very hard for us to

01:13:40.340 return back to some normalcy.

01:13:42.120 I never wanted to do this.

01:13:43.620 I tried to blow the whistle internally at the IRS and I was shunned.

01:13:48.480 I was told I might've broken the law and that I should cease and desist from doing that.

01:13:52.100 I tried internally telling people higher than me what was going on.

01:13:57.440 We did it for years and I think I want, I want in the future, I don't want people to

01:14:04.520 go through what Gary and I've gone through.

01:14:06.240 There needs to be some policy.

01:14:07.960 There needs to be some law in there that prevents this from happening again.

01:14:13.360 You should, David, why shouldn't have been allowed to go to another president appointed

01:14:18.460 U.S. attorney to bring forward these charges when they're trying to leave out this political

01:14:23.240 bias.

01:14:23.620 So all those things we really need to reflect on.

01:14:27.440 And in order for us to move forward, like that, that's, we need change.

01:14:32.020 Okay.

01:14:32.540 The biggest question, of course, as interesting as the Hunter charges are, and they are interesting

01:14:37.120 is whether there's any link to Joe Biden.

01:14:39.860 And this is sort of where the Democrats politically have landed right now that they can see Hunter's

01:14:45.800 in a whole lot of legal trouble.

01:14:47.000 It's kind of veering more towards, well, Joe had nothing to do with it.

01:14:50.320 I mean, Hunter was a hot mess, but Joe Biden had nothing to do with any of this.

01:14:54.180 And I know from listening to you guys and interviewing you and preparing for these exchanges that you

01:14:59.520 did have evidence about Joe.

01:15:01.500 You were not allowed to pursue it.

01:15:03.640 Leslie Wolf, the assistant U.S.

01:15:05.820 attorney was turning you down at every turn, saying, no, that's a no go.

01:15:11.420 We're not going into anything about Joe Biden.

01:15:13.160 And then when you were about to search this storage closet that Hunter Biden had, she told Hunter's lawyers, right?

01:15:22.240 She told them or was it the Secret Service agents around them?

01:15:25.160 But she blew it.

01:15:27.680 And, you know, if you're somebody who's committed a crime and you get the heads up that the feds

01:15:31.720 are about to come investigate your storage closet, that's very helpful.

01:15:37.100 That was just one example.

01:15:38.460 But here's why I raised it, Joseph, because I saw when you guys testified in front of Congress,

01:15:46.120 I think it was most recently, Alabama Representative Terry Sewell, a Democrat who was in December,

01:15:51.520 asked you guys, both of you, came after you hard on whether there was any evidence, quote,

01:15:57.940 that directly proves that Joe Biden has done something illegal.

01:16:01.740 Yes or no?

01:16:02.920 Gary, you responded, there is evidence.

01:16:06.460 Sewell, is it yes or no?

01:16:08.420 You, yes.

01:16:10.360 So just suddenly Sewell's like, never mind, I'm going to go to the other guy.

01:16:14.400 So Sewell goes to you, Joseph, and says, please show me the direct evidence that actually proves

01:16:20.280 Joe Biden did something unlawful, illegal.

01:16:24.220 And then you did, you did.

01:16:26.740 And what just is such an impressive tick-tock of what you knew, including Exhibit 11.

01:16:34.640 Hunter Biden states in his email that his original agreement, this is when Sewell cuts you off.

01:16:39.760 But you get back in and you answer the question, ticking off a couple of things.

01:16:44.880 Can you, do you have it in your head here?

01:16:47.160 Or do you need the exhibit in front of you to walk us through a couple of the examples tying Joe?

01:16:52.460 No, I have it in my head.

01:16:53.940 So, I mean, it's, there's a, there's a lot of information.

01:16:58.060 There's, so, big picture.

01:17:00.620 At the end of the day, this is about access to a family, an administration, the Biden family.

01:17:06.400 And it's access for individuals in foreign countries.

01:17:11.000 And it's the enrichment of that family.

01:17:13.780 So, it's enrichment of Hunter Biden, enrichment of various family members of the Biden family.

01:17:19.260 So, doing these things for these other people, access to the administration in return for money.

01:17:24.880 And that's, I think, the biggest, like, that's, that's, at the end of the day, what this was.

01:17:30.340 And then IRS comes in because you didn't pay taxes on that money.

01:17:33.700 You earned these millions, or these millions of dollars of income, and you didn't pay the taxes on that money.

01:17:38.760 But the links to, what I was trying to get across in that statement was, you have that email, August 2nd, 2017, that says,

01:17:47.900 introductions alone at a rate of $10 million per year for a total of $30 million.

01:17:53.340 And this is why it's so lucrative to me and my family.

01:17:57.020 Okay?

01:17:57.480 So, that's August 2nd, 2017.

01:17:59.580 A couple days prior to that, you have the email, or the WhatsApp message, to where he says, I'm sitting here with my dad.

01:18:06.700 We're ready to make a deal.

01:18:07.900 And that was with CEFC Chairman Yeh and the director of CEFC.

01:18:13.480 Then you have, now you go back two more months prior to that, and the Sino Hawk deal that they were trying to set up,

01:18:19.400 you have 10% held by H for the big guy.

01:18:23.560 So, now you have the Sino Hawk deal with CEFC.

01:18:27.080 That falls through, indicates that you have some form of ownership for the big guy, which we know to be Joe Biden.

01:18:33.880 And you have that deal end up going through under a different name called Hudson West 3.

01:18:40.760 And now you even move forward from that, and you have repayments of loans from James Biden,

01:18:47.740 who is receiving money from this CEFC entity in the form of repayments of loans to Joe Biden.

01:18:56.040 So, look at the timing of all of that.

01:18:59.220 And I think it's, now you take it one step further, well, what did we do with it?

01:19:03.740 We didn't do anything with it, because we weren't allowed to follow leads that led to Joe Biden.

01:19:08.680 We weren't allowed to follow those normal investigative processes.

01:19:12.300 And I think that is the most disheartening and discouraging thing, looking back on everything.

01:19:17.180 And that's what, that's why Congress needs to step in and do it.

01:19:21.780 And they are doing it.

01:19:22.720 Quick question before I give it to Gary.

01:19:24.620 If all those things that you just mentioned, August of 2017, July of 2017, 2017, Trump was in the White House.

01:19:33.360 Joe Biden was no longer vice president.

01:19:35.020 And so, is there an argument that this was illegal if, you know, access to a former vice president is not nearly the same as a sitting vice president?

01:19:47.780 Understanding, of course, the man would go on to become president.

01:19:50.460 Yeah, let's go to March of 2017, which was listed in the indictment.

01:19:56.080 You had a $3 million payment that comes from State Energy HK, which we know is an entity linked with CEFC.

01:20:03.900 That money from CEFC, or from State Energy HK, comes in two months after Joe Biden's out of office.

01:20:12.240 And I think that it's important for people to understand the timing of that, that this is for paid after.

01:20:19.040 And I believe it was in Anthony Bobulinski's interview memo that he says that that was paid after on purpose.

01:20:25.780 They wanted to wait until he was out of office.

01:20:28.020 So now you have add in all that information related to CEFC.

01:20:32.380 And I think that that paints a pretty clear picture.

01:20:37.580 It's very chilling, Gary.

01:20:39.180 You know, when you watch all this play out with charges actually brought against Hunter, but it does seem like Joe Biden is fairly protected at this point, at least in the criminal investigations.

01:20:50.300 There's the House impeachment inquiry, which is going forward.

01:20:54.380 But we all know that's not really going anywhere because the Dems control the Senate.

01:20:58.880 So even if he's impeached, he's not going to be found guilty.

01:21:01.420 What do you want to see happen in this process when it comes to Joe Biden?

01:21:09.920 No, we didn't come forward because of an impeachment of Joe Biden.

01:21:14.240 We came forward because of the Department of Justice misconduct and unethical and improper treatment of one individual taxpayer just happy to be Joe Biden's son.

01:21:25.500 So, I mean, it's been really mind-blowing to me to see how egregious Department of Justice is obstructing what Congress is trying to do.

01:21:36.640 They're not giving access to certain witnesses.

01:21:39.020 When witnesses do come forward, they're saying, oh, you know, we're going to come forward.

01:21:42.240 And then they have such a narrow line of questioning that they'll answer.

01:21:49.340 It gives them the ability to answer the questions they want, that they think helps them, and then not answer the questions that get to the meat of it.

01:21:58.140 And, you know, that's why, you know, the whole, like, private or public testimony, right?

01:22:03.000 Like, that's why these people need to go in for depositions behind closed doors because the format, which before this process is, I couldn't have told you what the format is, but the format of a deposition is that both sides of the aisle will get one-hour blocks of questioning.

01:22:20.060 As an investigator, you need that time to ask the questions, ask follow-up questions, go down the road to figure out what's actually going on.

01:22:28.080 And the way that a public setting works is that each member, it's the member themselves, they get five minutes to ask a question to which you talked about one member that didn't want to hear the answer, so they just cut us off.

01:22:42.740 So, I mean, that's what Congress has to do.

01:22:44.720 They have to get the line-level people in there.

01:22:47.420 They have to get the people that aren't alleged to engage in misconduct so that they're not just covering for themselves.

01:22:54.940 They need to ask all the questions, get all the documents.

01:22:57.680 And I hope that they do so because that's the only thing that's going to restore the faith in the Department of Justice for the American people is to have that oversight and to not allow the obstruction by Department of Justice and the administration.

01:23:12.320 Now, Gary, it seemed to me like Leslie Wolfe was one such witness who was David Weiss's deputy.

01:23:18.940 And she, according to your testimony when you came forth in the summer, was, I think, this is my word, she was interfering at every turn.

01:23:25.700 This was the woman who was like, no, it's a no on Joe Biden and it's no on Hunter Biden's adult children inquiries and everybody should know that they're coming down to search your storage locker.

01:23:36.760 I mean, so she went in there to give testimony and this is in mid-December.

01:23:41.660 She spoke to House investigators.

01:23:43.520 And from what I read, she just kept saying that over and over and over.

01:23:47.820 She just kept saying 79 times that she was not authorized by the Justice Department to answer questions about the case over and over and over.

01:23:58.680 Is that, was she heavy handed in the investigation when you were running it?

01:24:03.780 Yeah, I mean, there were four main prosecutors.

01:24:06.860 She was definitely the front of that.

01:24:08.400 And of course, David Weiss was the one, you know, calling the ultimate shots at the end of the day.

01:24:13.920 But it just goes, this, this is how not allowing the witnesses to actually answer these questions.

01:24:20.100 I mean, if you go back to an FBI witness that came in and he testified on Monday and on a Sunday, he got a letter from Department of Justice and FBI saying that he should be answering questions about X, Y, and Z.

01:24:32.780 And that he was allowed to answer one line of questioning.

01:24:35.940 And that was that before the day of action on December 8th of 2020, the Secret Service and the Biden transition team were tipped off about that day of action the night before, which, you know, appears to have negatively impacted the witnesses who we were able to interview.

01:24:52.320 But, I mean, that's just, that's just goes to show like these, the FBI witness, he can answer a lot more questions, you know, but they, they, they scare him into it or they don't allow him to go into it.

01:25:03.000 And then it's really, it appears to be part of the strategy, right?

01:25:06.080 Like we need a special counsel to investigate Weiss and the team.

01:25:09.080 And that includes us.

01:25:10.040 Feel free to investigate us.

01:25:11.400 You know, we didn't do anything wrong.

01:25:13.260 We don't need Weiss to be given special counsel, right?

01:25:16.820 They needed it because that clip you played of Merrick Garland says, oh, well, he actually has more authority than special counsel.

01:25:24.240 Well, then did you demote him when you gave him special counsel authority?

01:25:27.820 I'm not really sure.

01:25:29.660 But it just, it's a shifting stories on and on.

01:25:33.420 It changes here.

01:25:34.500 You have representatives saying that we're just frustrated.

01:25:37.480 Well, what are we now when, when these prosecutors come in and actually charge what we recommended?

01:25:43.800 I'm not frustrated.

01:25:44.840 I'm energized and I'm focused now on trying to, to create, you know, fixes to the, to the issues to which we brought up.

01:25:55.360 And unfortunately, you know, there's going to be a lot that has to happen here at IRS Criminal Investigation to ensure that this type of thing doesn't happen again.

01:26:04.860 Yeah.

01:26:05.580 My God, you're so, you're so right.

01:26:06.840 We needed a special counsel to investigate the U.S. attorney, who's now special counsel, David Weiss.

01:26:13.380 Stand by.

01:26:14.100 There's more to get to.

01:26:15.240 Gary and Joseph, stay with us.

01:26:17.160 And I want to tell you that you can help support them at defendwhistleblowers.com.

01:26:24.360 These are not rich guys.

01:26:25.660 They took quite a risk coming forward.

01:26:28.760 Defendwhistleblowers.com.

01:26:30.260 Check it out.

01:26:31.020 More just ahead.

01:26:31.800 And actually, we're going to come back with a bit of breaking news.

01:26:34.140 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

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01:27:32.640 If you are listening to us live, we have breaking news about Harvard President Claudine Gay.

01:27:42.740 She has now officially resigned.

01:27:45.620 She just posted a statement in which she writes, quote,

01:27:48.480 After consultation with members of the corporation, Harvard has this board,

01:27:53.120 it has become clear that it is in the best interests of Harvard for me to resign.

01:27:57.700 That resignation comes amid growing allegations of plagiarism, many uncovered by conservative media,

01:28:05.840 including Chris Ruffo, who's been on the show many, many times, and the Washington Free Beacon.

01:28:11.700 You know that publication and Eliana Johnson.

01:28:14.400 We'll talk to her about it next time she comes on.

01:28:16.800 About that, Claudine Gay decided to write the following, quote,

01:28:20.100 Amidst all of this, it has been distressing to have doubt cast on my commitments to confronting hate

01:28:25.480 and to upholding scholarly rigor to bedrock values that are fundamental to who I am

01:28:31.780 and frightening to be subjected to personal attacks and threats fueled by racial animus.

01:28:39.020 When I neglected to mention in my conversation with Ben, those 11 to 17 articles she's written,

01:28:43.200 like literally every single one of them, was about alleged racial animus or what it's like

01:28:49.100 and how hard it is to be a person of color and how bad America is and how disparate the treatment.

01:28:54.340 I mean, OK, to the end, to the end, it's about her race.

01:28:58.760 Notwithstanding the fact that the UPenn lady who got booted was as white as the driven stone.

01:29:04.080 Gay also gave disastrous congressional testimony in early December,

01:29:07.020 where under questioning by Congresswoman Elise Stefanik,

01:29:09.600 she failed to say that calls for the genocide of Jews constituted a form of harassment

01:29:14.280 under Harvard's code of conduct.

01:29:16.860 Representative Stefanik tweeting out just now, quote,

01:29:19.160 two down, meaning the third is the MIT lady.

01:29:22.860 Harvard knows that this long overdue forced resignation of the anti-Semitic plagiarist president

01:29:28.680 is just the beginning of what will be the greatest scandal of any college or university in history, end quote.

01:29:34.080 Three weeks ago, the Harvard Corporation said it had unanimous support for gay.

01:29:38.580 This is all these like muckety mucks, people who are heads of law firms and so on,

01:29:42.520 who sort of sit on this advisory board and decide what's going to happen at Harvard.

01:29:46.280 Claudine Gay was president of Harvard for just over six months.

01:29:49.240 It's the shortest tenure in the university's history, we're told.

01:29:52.820 No word on who will be appointed as interim president.

01:29:56.260 We'll have more on this tomorrow with the fifth column.

01:29:58.200 But now back to my guests, IRS whistleblowers, Gary Shapley and Joseph Ziegler.

01:30:03.160 OK, so I've got to ask you about the fact that Hunter Biden, who defied the congressional subpoena last week,

01:30:10.620 and is probably going to be held in contempt of Congress because he did not testify.

01:30:13.900 They wanted to do what you said, depose him behind closed doors where they could have a meaningful cross-examination.

01:30:18.800 He said, I'll only testify if it's in view of the public with those meaningless, you know,

01:30:24.980 couple of minutes stints by Dems and Republicans alternating.

01:30:28.560 So he's likely to be held in contempt.

01:30:31.420 He, one of the things he's done, is filed a lawsuit against the IRS.

01:30:35.500 I mentioned it in the intro, and he's claiming you guys disclosed his confidential taxpayer information

01:30:42.520 and that that wasn't allowed and that that leads to a civil lawsuit against the IRS that he should get paid in.

01:30:53.220 It's about the decision by IRS employees, their representatives and others to disregard, this is an allegation,

01:31:00.440 their obligations and repeatedly and intentionally publicly disclose and disseminate Mr. Biden's protected tax return info

01:31:06.120 that IRS agents have targeted and sought to embarrass Mr. Biden.

01:31:11.680 That's what his claim is.

01:31:13.600 So, Gary, any response to that?

01:31:16.420 Yes, I'm not going to get in a lawsuit too much.

01:31:18.060 I just wanted to say that we filed a law at every single corner that we turned.

01:31:25.420 You know, I saw a counsel in November of 2022.

01:31:29.300 So, I mean, it wasn't until April 19th of 2023 where the letter actually went to Congress.

01:31:35.740 So, you know, we painstakingly filed a law.

01:31:39.040 We had advice of counsel with my attorney, Mark Lytle, and then Empower Oversight.

01:31:43.540 I mean, in the last hearing, Empower Oversight is a nonprofit that's helping represent me.

01:31:49.460 I mean, they tried to make a big deal that it was GOP staffers that started that.

01:31:54.700 Well, they didn't say what GOP staffer was.

01:31:57.140 It was, you know, it was, you know, the patron saint of whistleblowers, right?

01:32:03.320 Like, so they knew what to do.

01:32:06.020 They knew what the law was.

01:32:07.320 And that's what – yeah, yeah.

01:32:08.640 I'm sorry, I didn't say Chuck Grassley.

01:32:10.240 Yeah, Chuck Grassley.

01:32:11.540 And, you know, so they knew how to deal with the whistleblower laws.

01:32:15.180 They were the perfect place to go.

01:32:18.520 And that's what we did.

01:32:20.360 So we filed the law.

01:32:22.200 And, you know, that's what's going to happen at the end of the day.

01:32:24.640 So they're going to – the court's going to decide that we filed the law.

01:32:28.980 Mm-hmm.

01:32:29.800 Joseph, one of the things he's allegedly mad about is when you guys came on this show.

01:32:33.660 We're mentioned.

01:32:35.000 We always get mentioned.

01:32:36.220 We get mentioned a lot of lawsuits.

01:32:38.380 But, you know, it is your whistleblower's right to come out and tell the full story.

01:32:44.540 Do you – did you have any doubts about that when you saw his lawsuit saying you shouldn't have disclosed in detail the specifics about my taxes?

01:32:55.760 Yeah.

01:32:56.020 So I'm a former public information officer for IRSCI.

01:33:00.380 So I would be the law enforcement face to the media.

01:33:03.660 And, I mean, I went through extensive training for that.

01:33:05.980 And a lot of that is if it's in the public record, you are allowed to go out there and talk about it.

01:33:11.860 So that's, I think, very important.

01:33:13.600 And it states it in our policy that if it's out there in the public record, you're allowed to go out there and talk about it.

01:33:18.300 And I think their move to – that the lawsuit was to silence us.

01:33:22.980 And I think that it was important that for Gary and I that, hey, this is – we're bringing these whistleblower claims.

01:33:30.000 This isn't – this is much bigger than just Hunter Biden.

01:33:33.380 This is about Department of Justice.

01:33:34.980 This is about the inequitable treatment of taxpayers.

01:33:39.060 And it's about time that change happens.

01:33:42.140 And it happens to be that this person is Hunter Biden.

01:33:45.300 So I think that that is super important for people to understand.

01:33:50.440 Right.

01:33:50.640 And it may be about presidential corruption, too, or vice presidential corruption, depending on where we are in the timeline.

01:33:58.660 I do want to ask you about your reaction to the changing narrative on Joe Biden's involvement in all of this.

01:34:04.620 You know, it started on – he did not discuss any of his son's business.

01:34:09.180 It's changed, including last month when Hunter came out and tried to restate what Joe Biden had or hadn't done.

01:34:16.620 Here's a bit of that in SOT 16.

01:34:18.740 I have never discussed with my son or my brother or anyone else anything having to do with their businesses, period.

01:34:26.340 Do you stand by your statement that you did not discuss any of your son's overseas business?

01:34:30.940 Yes, I stand by that statement.

01:34:32.600 The president was never in business with his son.

01:34:35.200 Let me state as clearly as I can.

01:34:38.420 My father was not financially involved in my business.

01:34:42.020 So it's never discussed, never in business.

01:34:44.900 And now it's not financially involved in my business.

01:34:49.660 I'll ask you first on that one, Gary.

01:34:51.540 You noticed the change.

01:34:52.760 You think it was intentional?

01:34:54.100 Yeah.

01:34:54.220 I mean, they were forced to change their story as more evidence and more facts come out.

01:34:59.180 I mean, there's not just our testimony but other witness testimony that clearly refutes knowledge by the president of his son's business dealings.

01:35:10.740 And then it just goes further and further.

01:35:12.400 So I have a sneaky suspicion that you're going to see the story change again in the future as more facts come out.

01:35:20.580 So you weren't surprised either, Joseph, to see it change, evolve to now or the closest they'll get is not financially involved in his business.

01:35:29.460 Yeah.

01:35:29.660 So I was not surprised at all.

01:35:32.100 I mean, look at emails that were turned over.

01:35:35.980 So one of my emails and one of the affidavits was from Vadim Pazarski.

01:35:41.820 He was part of the board of Burisma.

01:35:44.540 Thank you for inviting me to D.C. and giving me an opportunity to meet your father and spend some time together.

01:35:50.180 That's April 17th of 2015.

01:35:52.160 That is directly from a foreign business person associated with Burisma.

01:35:56.180 Thank you for we were never given that opportunity to interview Joe Biden related to that.

01:36:00.680 What did you guys talk about?

01:36:02.140 So that that I think is why the narrative is changing is that that this that that the evidence keeps coming out.

01:36:11.000 Mm hmm.

01:36:11.960 Was there, though?

01:36:12.960 I mean, just to take a minute on it, there was evidence of his financial involvement.

01:36:17.120 There's a ton of evidence of just his involvement in the whole scheme, meetings with people and so on.

01:36:22.280 But was there evidence of his financial involvement in the son's business dealings?

01:36:28.120 Yes.

01:36:28.420 So looking back at everything, everything done with Hunter seems to be in the form of a loan and loans are used because they're non taxable, typically non taxable.

01:36:39.960 So it's it's it's the Burisma income.

01:36:44.700 Part of that was claimed to be a loan.

01:36:46.820 The CFC money, part of that Hunter was claiming to be a loan.

01:36:50.700 The money, the four point nine million coming in from Kevin Morris, they're saying it's a loan.

01:36:57.400 And then you have now that you've had the committee that's brought forward the money coming from James Biden to Joe Biden.

01:37:03.520 That was return of return from a loan.

01:37:08.840 It's just more of the same type of thing.

01:37:11.240 And you go back to the one email, 10 percent held by H for the big guy.

01:37:15.860 When someone's holding equity for someone else, that is a taxable event to both parties.

01:37:21.740 And if you don't follow all the investigative routes to figure that out, we're not doing a complete and thorough investigation.

01:37:29.480 Yep.

01:37:29.900 And there's a reason we're not.

01:37:31.800 Gary, Joseph, you guys are heroes.

01:37:35.140 Thank you so much for coming on and keeping us updated.

01:37:38.020 Thanks so much for having us.

01:37:39.300 I appreciate it, Megan.

01:37:40.380 Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

01:37:42.700 And we'll be back tomorrow with a full rundown and everything, including Claudine with the fifth column.

01:37:47.660 See you then.

01:37:52.080 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:37:53.980 No BS, no agenda and no fear.

01:38:01.800 Thank you so much for having us.

01:38:02.300 No FDA, I'll see you then.

01:38:02.640 Thank you.

01:38:15.400 Thank you.

01:38:18.740 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - January 02, 2024

Record-Breaking Illegal Immigration Numbers, and What Joe Biden Knew About Hunter, with Ben Shapiro and the IRS Whistleblowers ｜ Ep. 693

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