The Megyn Kelly Show - Rich Lowry, Greg Kelly, Briahna Joy Gray and Erick Erickson, on Trump and Biden

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00:00:31.180 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest and provocative conversations.

00:00:37.440 Today, where the election battle and our political future now stand with Trump and Biden.

00:00:43.580 We've got a packed show for you.

00:00:44.760 Rich Lowry of The National Review, Greg Kelly of Newsmax,

00:00:47.500 Brianna Joy Gray from the Bernie campaign and Eric Erickson,

00:00:51.020 political commentator down in Georgia with all the latest there, starting now.

00:00:56.540 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

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00:02:14.660 And now, want to get right to our guest, starting it off with the latest in electoral election challenges

00:02:21.480 with Rich Lowry of the National Review and Greg Kelly, host of his own program on Newsmax.

00:02:32.160 Rich Lowry, thank you so much for being here.

00:02:34.760 Of course.

00:02:35.200 Thanks for having me.

00:02:35.760 All right, so let's talk about where we are right now.

00:02:39.360 And we'll start with the election litigation because Trump filed a bunch of challenges

00:02:43.860 and they seem to all be wrapping up except for a couple.

00:02:47.680 He's lost virtually all of them.

00:02:50.080 And there's two lanes.

00:02:51.040 One is the Rudy Giuliani lane where they're attacking individual voting processes.

00:02:58.040 Like, you didn't let the observers get close enough.

00:03:00.980 You let some voters fix their improperly filled out ballots, but not other voters and so on.

00:03:07.060 And then there's the Sidney Powell slash Lin Wood, another lawyer lane, which is Dominion

00:03:12.720 voting systems.

00:03:13.740 The voting machines themselves were corrupted by foreign actors.

00:03:16.640 Votes were switched.

00:03:17.540 Massive fraud.

00:03:18.780 So almost all of the Giuliani claims have been thrown out now.

00:03:22.820 Dominion voting fraud claims continue to live on.

00:03:25.420 Um, I think in Georgia and Michigan, I think, but definitely in Georgia.

00:03:31.200 And, uh, that's the thing that could throw out, you know, the whole thing.

00:03:33.880 I mean, if, if, if by some measure, Sidney Powell can prove this, we've seen nothing suggesting

00:03:39.080 she can.

00:03:40.300 That's the only thing that could really save this for Trump in my view.

00:03:43.540 And you guys just came out with an editorial saying this, this challenge by Trump, these,

00:03:48.620 these arguments at this point are disgraceful.

00:03:51.620 Why?

00:03:52.740 Well, he lost.

00:03:54.300 I mean, I, he just.

00:03:55.420 Clearly lost.

00:03:56.580 And in the scheme of things, there's a narrow loss.

00:03:59.860 I mean, he stormed back at, at the end and, you know, losing Georgia by 12,000, uh, whatever

00:04:05.660 it was in Arizona by something similar.

00:04:09.480 And, you know, Pennsylvania by 80,000, the scheme of things, these are relatively narrow

00:04:13.400 loss.

00:04:13.800 But in terms of like post-election litigation and recounts, they're huge losses, just huge.

00:04:18.920 And a couple of weeks ago, I think it was Rudy was pointing out in Wayne County, uh, you

00:04:25.380 know, when there was, there was a dispute over whether certify or not, there was something

00:04:28.840 like 70% of the precincts.

00:04:30.760 That's where Detroit is.

00:04:31.680 70% of the precincts had mismatches between the number of people who were signed up and

00:04:36.120 the actual votes that were tallied.

00:04:37.620 I was like, holy crap.

00:04:39.280 Are you kidding me?

00:04:40.140 This is terrible.

00:04:41.700 What's going on here?

00:04:42.500 And then I looked into a little bit more and almost all of them are like one vote.

00:04:46.300 So it added up to 386 votes or 387 votes and he lost Michigan by 150,000.

00:04:52.740 So there's just this vast mismatch between when, when you get to push to shove and what

00:04:57.960 they, they really have complaints about and, and the margins they need to, to overturn.

00:05:03.040 And in the devastating third circuit decision, um, within the Pennsylvania suit, they, they

00:05:09.760 pointed this out that the, these cured ballots where some counties said, you know what, you,

00:05:14.620 you didn't sign it correctly, or you don't have the second envelope on, or you didn't

00:05:18.720 put your address or whatever it is.

00:05:20.380 Some counties went back to you and said, Hey, Hey, Mr. and Mrs. Voter, uh, this is wrong.

00:05:25.120 Do you want to fix it?

00:05:25.800 Other counties didn't, but, uh, and they're challenging, I think seven counties that, that

00:05:30.700 let people cure the ballots and it added up to probably less than 10,000 votes and he lost

00:05:35.860 Pennsylvania by 80.

00:05:36.960 So you're just not even, you're not even close.

00:05:39.100 So that's why I believe, and as we said in the editorial, this is just driven fundamentally

00:05:44.020 by Trump's inability to say two words, I lost.

00:05:48.080 There's no outcome that he would have accepted that where he was defeated, just none.

00:05:53.260 You know, you could have had UN special rapporteurs at every single polling place in America and

00:05:58.180 he still wouldn't accept it.

00:05:59.260 You could have Don Jr. monitoring personally, every single polling place in America.

00:06:03.600 And if it didn't go his way, he wouldn't accept it.

00:06:05.440 And I think that's, that's what, that's what's really driving this.

00:06:08.440 What do you make of the Sidney Powell lane?

00:06:11.360 Because the thing that has confused me all along about Sidney Powell is she's, she's a

00:06:16.980 bad-ass lawyer.

00:06:17.960 I mean, she's legit.

00:06:19.100 This is not some loon.

00:06:20.500 This is somebody who was a U S attorney who has won something like 80% of the federal appeals

00:06:26.700 that she's filed.

00:06:27.860 She knows what she's doing.

00:06:29.180 She's not a hack.

00:06:29.940 And she did well with Michael Flynn, but what she's alleging, if, if, if this is not true,

00:06:37.800 like if she can't close this deal and so far, it doesn't seem like she can, she, she's lost

00:06:44.180 all her credibility forevermore.

00:06:45.420 I just, to me as a lawyer, it's baffling.

00:06:48.540 Yeah.

00:06:48.760 The way I added up is it, it may have taken someone who's kind of out there to, to go

00:06:53.960 back in and fix the Michael Flynn case.

00:06:56.080 Cause he pled guilty, right?

00:06:57.780 Like twice, didn't he?

00:06:58.920 And actually they had a back and forth with a, with a judge.

00:07:01.960 So he's like, are you sure you're really guilty?

00:07:03.580 Yes, sir.

00:07:04.040 I am.

00:07:05.500 And, and so maybe it takes, takes someone who's a little out there to go back and no,

00:07:10.440 I'm actually going to get them off, which you did, which is amazing.

00:07:12.860 She just deserves credit for, but the dominion thing, first of all, it just sounds like if

00:07:17.360 you just heard it, um, uh, top of your head to say, oh, that's a conspiracy.

00:07:21.560 It just conspiracy theory.

00:07:22.880 It sounds like a conspiracy theory.

00:07:24.660 And so far there's, there's zero evidence of it.

00:07:27.020 And Georgia, where they use these dominion voting machines, the way I understand it.

00:07:32.740 So you use the machine to mark your choices and then it spits out a paper record.

00:07:38.220 And if you voted for Trump and the paper record says Biden, you're going to notice, at least

00:07:43.120 some people are going to notice.

00:07:44.820 And then you take your paper record and you scan it and it's counted.

00:07:48.160 So there's this paper record, which I think is very important as one of the lessons that

00:07:51.640 we should take away from this.

00:07:53.000 It places that don't have a paper record of what happened need to do that.

00:07:57.020 Because it's just really important for accountability and going back afterwards.

00:08:01.160 Yeah.

00:08:01.320 Can I stop you there?

00:08:01.980 Just to, just to, so you go in, just walk, let's walk through it just so people understand

00:08:05.680 why this seems not possible.

00:08:08.000 You, cause you know, everybody votes differently.

00:08:10.120 You know, the, the voting systems across the country are not uniform.

00:08:12.940 So in this, in Georgia, in using dominion voting systems, you, what do you do?

00:08:17.940 Like walk us through it.

00:08:18.740 Step one would be what?

00:08:19.700 So my understanding, you get, you step into this, this little machine and you say, I'm

00:08:25.880 voting for Trump and Purdue and Loeffler.

00:08:29.040 You mark it and then it prints out a paper record.

00:08:33.480 This, this is who you mark it.

00:08:34.800 And then you feed it in, like you mark your ballot, then you feed it into the machine.

00:08:38.980 Right.

00:08:39.480 My understanding, uh, is that you mark it, it spits out a paper record receipt or whatever.

00:08:45.220 And then you take it to a scanner and it scans in the paper record of it and it's recorded.

00:08:51.620 So there, there are three steps.

00:08:53.400 You choose, you get your paper, you scan your paper.

00:08:56.660 And then, and then the precinct has that paper.

00:08:59.000 So you do a hand recount and you're looking at all the paper records.

00:09:02.820 So it's not just an electronic or online system.

00:09:06.600 There's this hand recount, which should have, if, you know, someone was playing, you know,

00:09:11.440 with the software behind the scenes, there should be a, you know, a drastic, you know,

00:09:15.760 million vote or whatever it was mismatch between the paper and the computers.

00:09:19.880 And that just, that just didn't happen.

00:09:22.200 And the other thing that just, there's been a lot of talk about anomalies and what weird,

00:09:28.120 weird patterns there are in this election.

00:09:30.560 And I just think it's 30,000 foot level, not at all, because the day after Trump won

00:09:36.500 in 2016, the most likely scenario, obviously he narrowly won the blue wall state.

00:09:41.260 So the most obvious scenario for him losing in four years would be narrowly losing those

00:09:46.100 states instead of narrowly winning them.

00:09:48.340 And basically that's what happened.

00:09:49.460 There was like a one or two point swing all around the country, except for Florida, where

00:09:53.680 Trump really overperformed, I think, uh, in part because of his strength among Cuban

00:09:58.520 Americans.

00:10:01.020 And, and he, he did, you know, he knocked out of the park in the rural areas, as you'd

00:10:03.800 expect.

00:10:04.340 He got wiped out in the urban areas, but actually did better in some of the major cities, a little

00:10:08.440 better than he did in 16.

00:10:10.080 I think he was a little better in Philadelphia, a little better in Detroit, some others, and

00:10:13.640 then lost the suburbs.

00:10:14.680 And, and just, that's not, that's not an unusual outcome.

00:10:18.000 That's what you would have expected to happen.

00:10:19.680 That was kind of the conventional wisdom of what would happen.

00:10:22.200 And he lost the suburbs everywhere.

00:10:23.640 It wasn't just, you know, in these, these states contesting.

00:10:27.020 Yeah, that's this, this election was driven by what happened in the suburbs.

00:10:30.540 That's, that seems pretty well accepted.

00:10:32.640 And the other thing that's implausible about Sidney Powell's theory is if, if there is some

00:10:38.740 mastermind, you know, connected to Biden or somebody else, the latest allegation is maybe

00:10:44.360 Iran or China sitting back and manipulating votes.

00:10:48.460 Why, why would they let the Democrats lose anywhere?

00:10:53.200 Like, why wouldn't they bolster the seats that they had in the house?

00:10:55.840 Why wouldn't they make sure that they captured the Senate?

00:10:57.780 Why, you know, like if you're going to mess with the ballots, why don't you mess with them

00:11:01.360 a little bit more?

00:11:02.160 Make it a one party government if you're going to get in there.

00:11:05.860 I don't know that none of that has been explained.

00:11:09.200 And then, and then there's a disconnect between the Sidney Powell theory and the Rudy theory,

00:11:13.600 which you're correct, separate and say are slightly different.

00:11:15.800 And the way she squared the circle at the Notorious,

00:11:18.460 RNC press conference, which she said, well, the, the, the software was rigged to, to give

00:11:22.960 the election to Biden, but then there was this massive Trump turnout.

00:11:26.440 So Trump broke the algorithm of the software.

00:11:30.280 And that's when they had to stop the counting and bring in paper ballots by the, the, you

00:11:35.140 know, barrel full to get Biden over the top.

00:11:37.700 So I, I think it's, it's completely implausible.

00:11:41.340 I will say, you know, all along, there's just been the slight, slightest bit of me.

00:11:45.680 It's like, okay, you know, I've been wrong about so many things the last four years that

00:11:49.180 I've dismissed as crazy.

00:11:50.800 Maybe, maybe, but I just see, I just see zero indication of it.

00:11:55.180 Do you think part of the reason that some of the Trump voters, most of the Trump voters,

00:12:00.540 I think are having trouble accepting the results as outlandish as the Sidney Powell theory is.

00:12:06.700 And again, you know, the Rudy lane is dying.

00:12:08.400 It's dying really quickly.

00:12:09.400 I mean, the third circuit just shut down, as you point out, all the legal challenges

00:12:12.940 in Pennsylvania, they're over.

00:12:14.300 So Pennsylvania is gone.

00:12:15.840 There's not a still alive dispute there.

00:12:18.260 But do you think the reason not only the Trump voters, but most Republicans are kind of at

00:12:22.120 least holding onto the thought that there might be massive voter fraud, that, that maybe Trump

00:12:25.500 didn't win, that maybe there was funny business here is just how badly the Democrats have

00:12:29.860 behaved with respect to Trump's presidency over the past four years.

00:12:32.820 You know, he, his election wasn't legitimate.

00:12:35.360 He was a Russian asset.

00:12:36.620 He needs to be impeached.

00:12:39.140 He didn't actually win, right?

00:12:41.440 The popular vote should somehow control just at every turn.

00:12:45.140 And now, now they turn around and want to lecture us about democratic norms, accepting results.

00:12:53.620 You know, David Marcus had a great article on this in the Federalist basically saying they

00:12:57.320 gave Trump absolutely no chance.

00:12:58.600 But now I'm supposed to embrace Joe Biden for the sake of the country.

00:13:02.060 He writes, the glorious rediscovery of high mindedness is infuriating and says the left

00:13:08.740 destroyed any semblance of decency and fair play.

00:13:10.860 How much of that is going on?

00:13:13.200 I mean, he's totally right about that.

00:13:15.040 It is completely infuriating.

00:13:16.900 My take is it was wrong for them to do.

00:13:18.720 And it's wrong for Trump to do what he's doing here.

00:13:21.460 But I think what's what's really driving the suspicion is, one, your Trump is winning on

00:13:28.000 election night.

00:13:28.780 You go to sleep, you wake up and all of a sudden he's losing, you know, in the dead of

00:13:33.960 night, the vote switched around in Wisconsin and Michigan and in Pennsylvania.

00:13:38.560 It took a couple of days for Biden to overtake Trump.

00:13:41.500 But you saw where where it was headed.

00:13:43.440 And that's just going to raise suspicions.

00:13:45.920 Now, I think there are legitimate reasons for why that happened.

00:13:48.100 And it was kind of expected that the count go that way.

00:13:50.820 But that's going to stoke suspicions, too.

00:13:54.060 We just live in an era where no one really accepts anyone else's legitimacy.

00:13:57.720 We saw it, as you just outlined with Trump in 2016.

00:14:01.440 But it goes back further than that.

00:14:03.180 Republicans never really accepted Bill Clinton's legitimacy because he was a draft dodger and

00:14:08.860 a womanizer.

00:14:09.800 This was a more innocent time.

00:14:11.820 And and he, you know, only got 43 percent of the vote in 1992.

00:14:15.380 And then because of the Florida vote controversy in 2000, Democrats didn't accept Bush's legitimacy.

00:14:21.840 And then a lot of Republicans never accepted Obama's legitimacy, you know, including Trump

00:14:26.340 and the birthers.

00:14:27.640 And the most they were the most extreme version of that.

00:14:30.240 So no one accepts any anyone's legitimacy anymore.

00:14:33.160 So that's the second thing.

00:14:34.140 And the third thing is Trump's pouring fuel on the fire.

00:14:36.580 So I think 50 percent of Republicans probably would think there was something funny and wrong

00:14:41.300 with with the election, regardless of what Trump said, even even if he was being really

00:14:45.400 extremely careful and gracious about it.

00:14:47.260 But, you know, it's 70 or 80 because because he's he's fueling the fire.

00:14:51.140 And there are a lot of people that just are really bonded to him.

00:14:54.280 And this goes to his incredible power as a politician.

00:14:57.220 I mean, to come out of nowhere in 2015, identify this coalition within the Republican Party that

00:15:03.220 no one really thought existed, completely bond it to himself and mobilize it in a massive

00:15:09.740 way in two national elections is an extraordinary thing, just an extraordinary thing.

00:15:14.700 So even though, you know, I've been critical of him and I don't like the way he's handling

00:15:18.780 himself now, you got got to give the devil's due.

00:15:24.040 Well, how much does this make you worry, if at all, about what's happening in Georgia?

00:15:28.000 Yeah, because while the president's not calling for voters to boycott this Senate runoff, you

00:15:33.700 know, there's two races yet to be decided down there and the Republicans could they could

00:15:37.900 lose and they could not have control of the Senate.

00:15:41.680 The president's not calling for a boycott of it, but he's sure is going after the Georgia

00:15:45.920 governor, the Georgia secretary of state and Lin Wood, the guy working with Sidney Powell,

00:15:49.900 the other lawyer, very well-respected lawyer.

00:15:53.080 He's calling for a boycott.

00:15:54.380 He's saying President Trump's voters should basically thumb the nose at these runoffs as

00:16:00.360 a punishment to the elected officials down there who they don't think are being supportive

00:16:04.420 enough of Trump in his quest.

00:16:07.900 I'm really worried.

00:16:08.760 I think it's entirely conceivable they could lose both of those Senate seats, which would

00:16:13.460 be a total debacle and hand Senate control over to Joe Biden for for no good reason whatsoever.

00:16:20.300 And these seats, I think, absent what's happening right now, you favor Republicans, but you

00:16:26.920 wouldn't favor them by a massive amount.

00:16:29.120 Trump lost Georgia.

00:16:30.500 Georgia's been changing for a while.

00:16:33.280 John Ossoff's candidate has appeal in the suburbs, the Democrat running against David

00:16:38.060 Perdue, the Republican incumbent.

00:16:39.920 And this guy, Warnock, preacher, black African-American preacher, has a lot of appeal to the black vote.

00:16:45.800 So those those two candidates, they kind of match up well.

00:16:49.420 So these aren't gimmies.

00:16:51.620 And then to have the party potentially torn apart and a lot of people discouraged and

00:16:55.940 thinking that their votes didn't count the first time around, it just could be a total

00:17:00.920 debacle.

00:17:01.500 And I think the president seems of two minds about it.

00:17:04.160 One, he's going to hammer Kemp and Rapsenberger and promote the theory that they've done terrible

00:17:09.820 things down there.

00:17:10.960 At the same time, the other part of him realizes that it's really good for his legacy if Republicans

00:17:15.680 win these seats.

00:17:18.040 So you have Don Jr.

00:17:19.040 He's starting the super PAC and he's going to be really involved down there.

00:17:21.540 I welcome that.

00:17:22.220 I think that's good.

00:17:23.440 But I think it'd be much better if people weren't saying, including the president, that

00:17:27.720 the Republican governor, the Republican secretary of state are enemies of the people.

00:17:33.000 It just it can't can't be good.

00:17:35.860 And if Republicans lose those seats, it's going to be a major part of it.

00:17:40.960 Yeah, you point out, you know, to put it in terms that Trump would understand his legacy

00:17:45.760 is in danger.

00:17:47.040 He it's much better for him if the if the Republicans control the Senate and can't and don't have

00:17:52.580 uniform government to push through a Biden agenda that, you know, if for no other reason

00:17:57.460 might start undoing Trump's Trump's undoing of the Obama Biden administration's legacy.

00:18:03.860 Right.

00:18:04.160 It's just like one.

00:18:04.980 It's like a nuclear war.

00:18:06.500 Right.

00:18:06.720 What?

00:18:07.460 Yeah.

00:18:07.940 One one undoes the other one.

00:18:09.300 Absolutely.

00:18:09.820 Absolutely.

00:18:10.960 And it's it's still Trump's party and it's going to be Trump's party for for a while

00:18:16.240 here.

00:18:17.040 So defeats in those races will will be attributed to him.

00:18:22.060 But as I say, he's he's of he's of two minds.

00:18:25.300 And this is one reason that Senate Republicans are so nervous about saying anything about the

00:18:31.200 election controversy is they don't want to offend the president and potentially prompt

00:18:36.820 him to say, you know what, guys, screw you.

00:18:38.640 I'm taking down your your your your Senate candidates and Georgia.

00:18:42.920 That's that's the worst case scenario.

00:18:45.060 They want to avoid at all costs.

00:18:47.460 Yeah.

00:18:47.620 And the legal challenges will play out.

00:18:50.420 Sidney Powell will get her day in court and we'll see.

00:18:53.360 A judge will decide whether she's got proof and adequate proof to make this claim or not.

00:18:58.800 And then the Republicans, I think, once it's settled, they should come out and say, OK, we

00:19:04.400 can do better on our election processes.

00:19:06.080 Obviously, there's room for reform.

00:19:08.000 But this is the decision.

00:19:09.460 It's been handled by courts of law with with in federal courts, by Obama appointees, by Trump

00:19:14.140 appointees.

00:19:14.780 And and that's that should be the end of it.

00:19:17.500 OK, let me ask you about what we're already seeing.

00:19:20.660 The media love fest with Joe Biden has already begun.

00:19:24.660 He announced some of his cabinet picks.

00:19:27.280 To me, they seem pretty milquetoast Obama types.

00:19:30.580 They seem kind of moderate.

00:19:32.980 Nobody too far out there except for near a tendon who we can get to for OMB.

00:19:38.020 But to hear the media discuss these picks, you would have thought Jesus has come back.

00:19:45.960 He's he's he's going to be the secretary of state, the chief of staff, the national security

00:19:49.460 if he's going to do it all.

00:19:50.820 Here's just a clip courtesy of Grapey and media of some of the reactions.

00:19:54.460 Listen, they are experienced.

00:19:56.000 They are well prepared.

00:19:57.720 Boy, how refreshing is that?

00:20:00.140 And it's very refreshing.

00:20:00.980 I was talking to a Democrat who just said this also felt like the Avengers.

00:20:04.600 It felt like we're being rescued from this craziness that we've all lived through from

00:20:09.240 the last four years.

00:20:10.120 And now here are the superheroes to come and save us all.

00:20:13.080 This is like being at the end of The Wizard of Oz.

00:20:15.260 This is like the 1980s Celtics basketball team.

00:20:19.200 Trump really had the Z team.

00:20:20.560 This is really the A team.

00:20:21.600 The A team for the country.

00:20:22.860 They are manifestly experienced and competent.

00:20:25.620 The word competence been thrown around, qualified.

00:20:28.120 Very coherent.

00:20:29.280 Calmness.

00:20:29.880 Deep knowledge.

00:20:30.600 Kindness.

00:20:31.100 Deep commitment.

00:20:32.280 Professionalism is back.

00:20:33.380 The expertise is back.

00:20:35.060 And it's also nice to take a look at a group of appointees that don't look like a restricted

00:20:39.880 all-white country club.

00:20:41.360 Jake Sullivan as the leader of the band is the perfect choice.

00:20:45.460 She is perfectly suited.

00:20:46.800 With Alejandro, you're going to get confidence, gifted leader, kind, thoughtful, brilliant.

00:20:51.660 I can't think of a better person.

00:20:53.000 Let me get your thoughts about Tony Blinken.

00:20:54.940 I can't think of anybody better.

00:20:56.400 I think tonight maybe I'll be able to start going to sleep.

00:21:00.440 Stop it.

00:21:01.040 Stop playing that clip.

00:21:02.420 Stop.

00:21:02.720 I can't take any more.

00:21:05.060 We can finally sleep again, Rich.

00:21:08.220 Oh, my gosh.

00:21:09.760 Yeah.

00:21:10.000 I mean, it's just horrible.

00:21:11.840 And Biden is the first president-elect ever to be praised for breaking his ankle.

00:21:16.560 You know, he even got that right, according to the media.

00:21:18.740 It's a brilliant move.

00:21:19.920 So this is what we're going to see.

00:21:22.640 You know, the media had a love fest with Barack Obama that was really sincere.

00:21:28.480 I mean, they had just – they were smitten with this guy who was kind of a once-in-a-generation political talent.

00:21:35.420 There's no excuse for being smitten.

00:21:36.960 No one's really smitten with Joe Biden.

00:21:39.360 They just hate Trump, and they hate Republicans.

00:21:42.060 So they're going to praise everything that Biden did.

00:21:45.340 And they did everything they could to put their thumb on the scale in the election.

00:21:50.440 They took it as their role to help get him over the finish line by any means necessary.

00:21:55.920 And that's going to be their approach going forward.

00:21:59.340 It's a disgrace.

00:22:00.720 And I'd have more respect for these people if they just admit they're not objective journalists.

00:22:05.900 You know, and I'm an opinion journalist.

00:22:07.640 It's okay not to be objective.

00:22:09.760 You know, you have newspapers in Britain, The Guardian and The Telegraph that aren't objective.

00:22:14.080 They're still good newspapers worth reading.

00:22:16.260 And I think we'd be much better off if we admitted the same here in the United States.

00:22:20.600 This is not a fair media.

00:22:22.120 And to me, it's kind of nice just to have it set up before we go into the Biden administration.

00:22:28.420 Just a reminder to the people of where the media stands, right?

00:22:32.140 The A-team, manifestly experienced, competent, professional, perfect, gifted, brilliant.

00:22:38.020 Okay, that's what the media thinks of the incoming administration.

00:22:41.920 So, you know, to a word of warning, right, to all the viewers out there who hopefully at this point are not unsuspecting,

00:22:48.680 but that this is not a fair group.

00:22:50.340 They are 100% rooting for Joe Biden and his cabinet, you know, to get their agenda through.

00:22:57.440 Not just rooting for them as leaders of the country, but rooting for them to push through his agenda.

00:23:01.980 And the last question I'll ask you before I let you go is, what do you think of that agenda?

00:23:06.820 Let's say the Republicans do hold on to the Senate.

00:23:09.000 But I mean, even if they do hold on to both of those seats, it's going to be a very thin margin by which they control that Senate.

00:23:15.480 And the Dems still have the House.

00:23:17.420 So what do you think his agenda is going to look like?

00:23:22.380 Just one last point, Megan, on the media, if you don't mind, because I think it dovetails with something we were discussing earlier.

00:23:28.080 Why do so many Republicans think the election was fraudulent?

00:23:31.320 Well, another reason is that every time the media says that these charges have no evidence behind them,

00:23:37.220 most Republicans are like, OK, well, then I believe them.

00:23:39.140 If you say that, if you say there's no evidence, there must be evidence because you've misled me and you're completely biased.

00:23:45.860 And I know I know where what you what you are.

00:23:49.020 So that's that's another factor playing into it.

00:23:51.280 I would expect, you know, we're going to get on Biden's agenda just a lot of spending.

00:23:55.780 Basically, that's something that you can usually get a bipartisan consensus for in Washington.

00:24:01.740 I think there'll be some sort of stimulus bill one way or the other, whether Republicans control the Senate or whether the Democrats narrowly control the Senate on a 50-50 tie.

00:24:12.740 And I do think, you know, we need we need another covid relief bill.

00:24:17.700 I think it needs to be intelligently crafted and it shouldn't blow the doors off the joint.

00:24:22.600 But there's a legitimate need there. But they'll they'll try to layer on as much spending as possible to bail out the cities and the states and to get as much,

00:24:32.580 you know, extraneous stuff in their climate change spending and all the rest of it.

00:24:36.940 But then with it, with a narrow, really narrow Democratic majority or Republican majority, I don't think there's, you know, the Green New Deal is not happening.

00:24:45.320 They're not going to end the filibuster. The more ambitious parts of the Biden agenda won't happen.

00:24:52.240 And then he's faced with the choice. Is he going to do the pen and phone governance the way Obama did, which will make Mitch McConnell even less inclined to work with him?

00:25:01.900 Or is he going to try to cut some deals with McConnell? And it is true that in the Obama years, when the Obama people wanted to cut a deal with McConnell,

00:25:11.060 they sent Biden and McConnell thought Biden was like the only one in the Obama administration who actually knew how to negotiate.

00:25:17.200 So there is a history there. So maybe there's be some deals around the margins.

00:25:21.640 But this is basically the American people saying, all right, Democrats, you said Trump shouldn't be president anymore.

00:25:26.380 We agree with that. But we don't trust you with power.

00:25:29.340 We're not going to give you enough control to do any of any of the big agenda items you talked about.

00:25:35.160 And we're going to elect this 70 year old guy who is kind of out of it and has these bipartisan impulses left over from a bygone era.

00:25:43.440 And if he has to do anything, he's going to do it with another 70 year old guy who is a Senate institutionalist and have fun and joy.

00:25:50.400 And that's that's basically what we're looking at.

00:25:52.260 Excellent stuff, Rich. Thank you so much for offering your perspective. And we'll see you over on the editors.

00:25:57.200 Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

00:25:59.340 My old pal, Greg Kelly. Great to have you, Megan.

00:26:04.020 Great to be with you again a long time, folks.

00:26:08.100 Megan and I shared an office for a day in 2004.

00:26:11.400 That's right. It was. Was it before or after you'd been in Iraq and that crazy videotape of you all bloody trying to cover the war for us over there?

00:26:20.420 Yeah, it was just about six months later. And it was your first day on the job.

00:26:25.560 And there was a guy named Ben Ginsberg in the office who had just gotten fired by the Bush campaign.

00:26:30.300 And you as an attorney in there to calm him down because he was I think he was losing his his stuff over what had just happened.

00:26:38.180 But anyway. Yeah, Megan. It's so cool to see to have followed your journey.

00:26:43.860 And I love this podcast.

00:26:45.580 Well, you're amazing, Greg. You've always been a great friend.

00:26:48.060 And you're killing it over on Newsmax now, which is a story unto itself.

00:26:52.740 But before we get to that, let's talk about one of the narratives that's driving Newsmax's success at the moment, which is this election litigation.

00:27:01.900 We just talked to Rich Lowry about it. National Review is not in favor of the Trump lawsuits.

00:27:06.580 They think it's, quote, disgraceful. He rich Lowry likes the Trump agenda, but just doesn't believe in these challenges.

00:27:12.920 And you've heard some of that from some Republicans who aren't diehard Trump fans.

00:27:18.380 Just so you know. So we set it up that there's sort of the one lane, which is the Giuliani lane.

00:27:22.980 That is more item by item challenges. You know, like you didn't let the voters, the observers get close enough to the vote count.

00:27:31.840 And then there's the other lane, which is the Sidney Powell Lin Wood lane of Dominion voting systems are corrupt.

00:27:36.760 They were corrupted and millions of votes were changed for Joe Biden from Donald Trump.

00:27:42.360 So what what do you think? Why do you have more of a belief that they could prevail on these challenges?

00:27:49.320 Well, look, here's my frustration overall. You know, Rich and those guys, they're great.

00:27:55.580 I mean, there is deep seated resentment and resistance toward Trump and there always has been.

00:27:59.920 And I think a lot of them see this as an opportunity to get rid of him.

00:28:03.400 But I went into the media because I am a curious person.

00:28:07.780 And I went in with a sense of wonder that every day could be an adventure, that you could learn something new, something you didn't know before.

00:28:17.120 Yet over the past, I would say, 10 years, 15 years, whatever, it's it's turned into I don't want to learn anything.

00:28:26.360 I just want to show people what I already know.

00:28:28.940 I mean, that's what we see from people on TV, people in this business, people who write.

00:28:33.180 And now you can get maximum exposure for minimum effort.

00:28:38.060 So you can sit there and opine on this stuff from New York, from Washington, D.C., talk to people you agree with and make a name for yourself.

00:28:47.020 In the old days, you had to go out and do something.

00:28:48.820 Now, regarding the current situation, I am deeply frustrated.

00:28:52.800 Look, I don't know how this is all going to work out.

00:28:55.540 You mentioned a couple of avenues that may or may not be open.

00:28:58.880 I think there are probably three dozen more mainstream media for all of their resources and equipment and knowledge and intelligence.

00:29:08.180 These are not dumb people, but they are self-satisfied, incurious, and they're not looking into this story the way they ought to be.

00:29:18.300 There are major, major anomalies, in my opinion.

00:29:21.420 Look, I can't give you a technical blow by blow, in part because the mainstream media are letting us down.

00:29:29.880 So just from 50,000 feet, you know, I once thought about going into politics.

00:29:34.300 And the guy told me, this is like 18 years ago, you know, you can't beat somebody with nobody.

00:29:39.920 And I was not a name.

00:29:41.500 And I could not take this person out, given my current, what then was my stature.

00:29:48.160 I feel like the same applies to Donald Trump.

00:29:50.300 He was somebody, and Joe Biden is a shell of a man.

00:29:53.260 And I just can't believe that it got 80 million votes.

00:29:55.460 I can't believe that somebody like Donald Trump, who got 95% of the Republican vote in the primary, I think voter mail-in voting was rushed.

00:30:05.980 I saw a report by Cynthia McFadden, Memorial Day.

00:30:09.480 And she raised, this is before it got truly politicized, like, this is extremely hard, and states don't know what they're doing.

00:30:17.940 And so all of that leaves me with a great deal of skepticism and questions that I'm frustrated that more people are not seeking the answers to.

00:30:25.940 Mm-hmm. Right. I mean, I've heard people say, how is it possible that Joe Biden, who virtually no one felt enthusiastic about, received more than 15 million more votes than Barack Obama received in 2012?

00:30:40.160 Like, how is that possible?

00:30:41.580 But I understand the response, too, which is Trump, right?

00:30:45.980 He motivates people both ways.

00:30:48.500 And while on paper it may not seem possible, the tallies are not working out the way Sidney Powell suggested they would.

00:31:00.000 You know, they're doing the hand recount in Georgia right now, but they're saying they've only found a small number, nothing that's going to really change his Biden's 12,000-plus lead over Trump.

00:31:10.420 And the thing about the Dominion voter machines is, if there were this massive conspiracy, that wouldn't be happening.

00:31:18.920 The hand recount, the going back and looking at the paper receipts of the ballots, would not match up with what the machines had said.

00:31:27.480 And so far, it is.

00:31:29.340 So I'm very open-minded as a lawyer to proof and to, you know, I don't believe in people's inherent good nature.

00:31:36.680 I believe they would cheat, especially when it comes to Trump.

00:31:39.700 I just do.

00:31:40.860 But I want to be – I want to see it proven.

00:31:43.880 I believe in our country, and I want to see it proven.

00:31:46.500 So far, I don't – show me.

00:31:48.160 Like, where is it, Greg?

00:31:49.180 Show me.

00:31:50.020 I understand.

00:31:50.940 And – but that – and I respect what you're saying.

00:31:54.620 But to the broader point about the media, what you just say there, show me.

00:31:58.280 Bring it to me.

00:31:59.760 Show me the evidence.

00:32:00.760 And we put it all on Sidney Powell.

00:32:02.760 And let's face it, she's not a gifted storyteller, and she probably gets carried away with herself.

00:32:08.060 So it's so easy to dismiss.

00:32:11.520 Now, I heard something yesterday that was quite interesting about Dominion Voting Systems, that they pledged to be offline, not connected to the Internet, where they're actually connected to the Internet.

00:32:20.880 Look, but I don't know the technical incident.

00:32:23.380 I will say this.

00:32:24.420 20 years ago, when we were watching the recount in Florida, the zone was flooded with reporters from all over the world in Tallahassee, Palm Beach, watching this thing and pursuing every single lead.

00:32:38.580 If you go to Pennsylvania, if you go to Arizona, the hearing yesterday, there's no one covering this stuff.

00:32:46.480 They're all sitting back for a couple of reasons.

00:32:48.380 Number one, they don't have the capacity to travel.

00:32:50.680 No one's paying those bills anymore.

00:32:52.760 And they're not inclined because the network, they all called this finished, and they want to move on.

00:32:59.740 So, look, show me the evidence.

00:33:02.020 Yeah.

00:33:02.240 But whatever happened to, let's go find the evidence.

00:33:06.680 Now, I'm the first one to admit, I'm not in a position to find the evidence.

00:33:11.020 Okay?

00:33:11.320 I've got this show on.

00:33:12.340 It's on every night at 7 o'clock.

00:33:14.060 I'm based here in New York.

00:33:16.020 Yet, there are people, and there's an industry that still has the capacity to pursue this, and they've decided not to.

00:33:24.200 You can't convince me that they've adequately investigated the possibility that this thing was stolen.

00:33:33.020 Yeah, they don't care.

00:33:34.280 I mean, for sure.

00:33:34.840 If it were the other way, you're 100% right that they would be taking a much harder and more serious look at the claims.

00:33:41.780 It's not their job to find evidence for the complaining lawyer, but that doesn't stop them when they think it's going to help, quote, their side, which is always Democrat when it comes to the media.

00:33:51.540 No, so you're not wrong about that, but I will say, just as an impartial arbiter, and that's how I see myself in this, I'm, you know, the lawyer, I don't see it.

00:34:01.300 I don't, unless Sidney Powell really does have the Kraken hidden someplace to prove that Dominion voting machines were actually manipulated, and she's saying, I mean, Dominion's saying they were not connected to the internet, that there are ports that are not accessible from the outside, that they're not connected, and that you couldn't get to them, that the ports, because they're inside the machine.

00:34:21.880 Who knows, right?

00:34:22.880 This is all going to play out in an evidentiary way in court.

00:34:25.760 But what do you think in terms of, you know, how does this bode for what's going to happen?

00:34:31.220 Let's say Biden is certified the winner.

00:34:33.920 He's inaugurated in January.

00:34:35.280 What does this do to the Republican voters who believe that this was stolen?

00:34:41.420 And even those who don't believe it was stolen, but they're just ticked off because, you know, Trump was, they impeached him, they accused him of being a Russian asset, they questioned his legitimacy from day one, and now we're getting lectured to about how that undermines democracy.

00:34:55.060 And what we really need to do is support our president and unify.

00:34:58.360 Yeah.

00:34:58.940 You know what?

00:34:59.480 I think that there's a possibility of a third party.

00:35:01.980 I know those haven't gone anywhere in the past, what, 50 years or so.

00:35:05.580 But I think a third party, a Make America Great Again party, people might start talking about something like that.

00:35:12.360 There's a huge, you know, Trump is, what, 95% support in the Republican Party.

00:35:18.520 The Republican Party is Trump.

00:35:20.360 I think Trump takes that support with him.

00:35:23.220 Trump is, I believe, 74 right now.

00:35:26.220 He'll be 78.

00:35:27.580 He'll be Biden's age in four years.

00:35:29.780 So if this does not work out, I think he becomes a candidate day one, and he starts commanding attention all over again.

00:35:36.860 I'm seeing some signs that the media are getting anxious to cover Biden the way they should have covered him during the campaign, really scrutinizing him.

00:35:47.540 I have a feeling that's going to start happening should he get into office.

00:35:51.900 So I don't know.

00:35:52.680 Who do you think is going to scrutinize Biden other than Fox and Newsmax?

00:35:57.560 Well, you know, there is the far left that is already dissatisfied with how Joe is performing.

00:36:04.560 The appointments so far are incredibly lackluster in their view.

00:36:08.460 Conventional, run-of-the-mill swamp creatures, forgive me, not catering to the far left as sufficiently as I think they were promised.

00:36:20.880 So the far left media, to the extent that there is one.

00:36:24.280 And, you know, sooner or later, I think, actually, I know that some in the mainstream media, some are regretting how they played this so far.

00:36:34.020 That, look, if they made it more of a dog race, a dog fight, as it is right now, it'd be better for business.

00:36:41.920 So even the mainstream media may realize, look, what do we owe Joe Biden?

00:36:47.320 I mean, what do we really owe this guy?

00:36:49.300 And they'll have to figure out for themselves.

00:36:52.840 They'll never actually be called out on it.

00:36:54.460 But, you know, why didn't we scrutinize him the way we do every single candidate?

00:36:58.740 Why didn't we give him the treatment in 2020 that we did in 1987?

00:37:04.360 There are no good answers for that.

00:37:05.800 And so I have a feeling they may reset and just go out.

00:37:09.960 The Times put out a statement today actually saying they'll cover a Biden administration as with the same vigor they covered.

00:37:18.160 Oh, please.

00:37:19.420 Yeah.

00:37:19.740 Good luck with that.

00:37:20.440 I don't believe that.

00:37:20.960 I don't believe that for one second.

00:37:23.320 They've got Kamala Harris waiting in the wings, who is definitely to the left of Joe.

00:37:28.180 And I don't know.

00:37:29.880 Stranger things have happened.

00:37:31.660 Well, you raise a good point, though, because in a minute, we're going to be joined by

00:37:34.940 the former national press secretary for Bernie Sanders, Breonna Joy Gray.

00:37:39.080 And, you know, she's not a fan like Crystal Ball.

00:37:41.340 These folks are on the established left, the more progressive left.

00:37:44.380 They're not they're not huge fans of Biden.

00:37:47.080 But I would say the media.

00:37:49.020 I don't know.

00:37:49.740 I don't know.

00:37:50.060 I don't expect them to cover Trump.

00:37:53.580 Sorry, Biden in any way near the way they covered Trump, who they thought was a demon.

00:37:58.020 You know, they made pretty clear they thought he was the worst you could be.

00:38:01.700 So let me ask you, though, about Newsmax, because it's been an interesting phenomenon to watch

00:38:06.000 it go from it's a very respected online property.

00:38:10.340 And Chris Ruddy has been trying to build the the cable news presence and has made investments

00:38:16.160 in talent like you.

00:38:18.020 But, man, it's exploded since the election because you guys have not called the election.

00:38:24.120 Newsmax has not said that Joe Biden has won the election yet.

00:38:27.340 They're waiting for certifications and for the legal process to play out.

00:38:32.040 And now your show's beating a lot of the like your show is getting over a million viewers,

00:38:36.680 which beats a lot of the daytime programming on some of these other channels.

00:38:40.040 And what do you think is happening?

00:38:41.520 Do you think you're getting the disaffected Fox News viewers who are ticked off about

00:38:45.720 the Chris Wallace debate, the early call in Arizona and some of the other things that

00:38:50.560 we've heard people complain about there?

00:38:52.020 Yes, the short answer is yes, we are getting disaffected Fox viewers.

00:38:58.960 We were seeing a rise over the past, I would say, started in September and October for sure.

00:39:06.840 My show, we've been at it since January and it's evolved.

00:39:10.820 We had what we call a soft launch, what they call a soft launch.

00:39:13.580 We didn't call a lot of attention to ourselves, wanted to figure out how this show would be

00:39:17.900 presented, what worked, what didn't.

00:39:20.240 And we ironed that out over a couple of months, which was a real luxury to be kind of hiding

00:39:24.560 in plain sight and figuring out what this show was and what it wasn't and working on it and

00:39:30.140 working on it.

00:39:30.820 And I think it really started to come alive in May, certainly after the protests started

00:39:36.140 across the country, the George Floyd protests.

00:39:38.840 And when viewers found us, whether they were from Fox or somewhere else, they found something

00:39:44.880 to really watch that they could really engage with.

00:39:48.380 And I think we were providing something very unique, saying things that no one else was saying.

00:39:54.000 So I'm proud of the product.

00:39:55.440 Yes, disaffected people.

00:39:56.820 And then, wow, they're seeing something.

00:39:58.480 It's like, wait a second.

00:39:59.540 This is really, you're onto something here.

00:40:02.700 So I'm very proud of what we've created.

00:40:06.200 And we'll see what happens.

00:40:09.360 Well, I have to say, of course, people are taking shots at you now because the mainstream

00:40:13.160 media wants you to declare for Biden and they want you to get behind their declarations.

00:40:19.260 But I will say for the record, I've been watching your coverage and you as a journalist

00:40:22.620 for a long, long time.

00:40:23.640 You're very fair.

00:40:24.940 You're not in a tank.

00:40:26.940 I know you're a Trump supporter.

00:40:28.060 You've owned that.

00:40:29.280 But you are not in a tank.

00:40:30.440 You're a fair guy.

00:40:31.140 And so they can just pound sand, Greg.

00:40:34.120 I'm with you.

00:40:36.400 Well, bring it on.

00:40:37.580 What do they say?

00:40:38.880 Dogs only bark when you're advancing.

00:40:40.840 I love it.

00:40:41.440 It's, hey, look, it's all part of it.

00:40:42.980 And, you know, I even love Twitter.

00:40:45.460 There are some smart people out there.

00:40:47.060 There really are people who don't agree with you, people who agree with you.

00:40:50.560 And I just I love the dialogue and to be continued.

00:40:56.060 Yeah.

00:40:56.520 Yeah.

00:40:56.820 I got another one.

00:40:57.580 They only tackle you when you have the ball.

00:40:59.300 A sports reference, Greg Kelly.

00:41:01.060 Look at me go.

00:41:01.700 I'm evolving.

00:41:03.620 Very, very impressive.

00:41:05.220 Good luck with the show.

00:41:06.060 We'll continue talking.

00:41:06.840 Thank you, Megan.

00:41:07.940 All the best.

00:41:09.620 Coming up in a minute, we're going to be joined by Brianna Joy Gray, who was the former national

00:41:13.380 press secretary for Bernie Sanders, who's got a warning for the Biden administration about

00:41:18.780 how exactly obnoxious she is about to get.

00:41:22.180 Before we get to that, though, let's talk about Super Beats soft chews.

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00:42:36.800 Brianna Joy Gray, thank you so much for being here.

00:42:39.640 It's my pleasure.

00:42:40.560 So how are you feeling right now?

00:42:42.020 You, you wanted Bernie, of course, it turned out to be Biden, he, he got it done from the

00:42:48.280 way it looks.

00:42:49.480 But you're not exactly a huge fan.

00:42:51.480 So how are you feeling right now?

00:42:52.800 Well, look, even before the global pandemic we're all living through, and the economic

00:42:58.260 crisis that has come along, along with it, there were ongoing crises in this country, right?

00:43:04.120 We are living at a time of enormous wealth inequality, the kind of inequality we haven't

00:43:10.000 seen since the Gilded Age, with six people owning more wealth in the bottom 50% of Americans.

00:43:17.820 And now the kind of insurance crisis, health crises that existed before the pandemic are

00:43:24.060 exacerbated.

00:43:25.580 We've seen 12 million Americans lose their employer-based health insurance over the course

00:43:30.860 of the pandemic, and a lot of the problems that Bernie Sanders was talking about have

00:43:35.300 only gotten that much worse.

00:43:36.420 So it's, yes, frustrating and disappointing to know that while it's obviously an advantage

00:43:42.960 to have gotten Trump out of the White House, Joe Biden is still signaling that he is not

00:43:48.860 going to meet the crisis with the level of policy engagement that a lot of progressives

00:43:55.540 and frankly, even conservatives believe is necessary to meet the moment.

00:44:00.860 What do you make of, there seems to be in the postmortem, a discussion by Democrats that

00:44:07.960 the progressives are to blame for the fact that the Democrats didn't get more seats in

00:44:14.540 the House and didn't capture the Senate, that, you know, you heard the now infamous call amongst

00:44:21.220 House Democrats right after the election saying, no more defund the police and no more socialism

00:44:27.900 talk, or we're never going to increase our numbers.

00:44:31.800 What did you make of that?

00:44:33.640 Yeah, I think in the words of our next president, I said that's a bunch of malarkey.

00:44:38.020 The reality is that what you saw across the country was that progressive policies, progressive

00:44:43.680 issues on the ballot did a lot better than the Democratic candidates themselves, right?

00:44:48.200 So you had Joe Biden lose in Florida, but a $15 minimum wage win there.

00:44:53.300 You saw drug deregulation, drug legalization pass in several states across the country that

00:45:00.580 and it did better than Joe Biden.

00:45:02.740 In fact, in Florida, where the $15 minimum wage passed, the Florida Democratic Party decided

00:45:07.600 that Joe Biden should distance himself from that issue because they thought it was going

00:45:11.140 to be too radical and a drag on the ticket, when in fact, the opposite was true.

00:45:16.900 And not a single Democratic incumbent, not a single candidate who supported Medicare for

00:45:21.900 all lost their race, which you saw with a lot of these moderate candidates that refused

00:45:26.220 to fight for their constituents.

00:45:29.000 Remember, and this is, I think, a really crucial point that gets lost, an overwhelming majority

00:45:33.580 of Americans support Medicare for all, including a slim majority of Republicans.

00:45:37.980 These are not polarizing issues.

00:45:40.380 And candidates weren't running on defund the police.

00:45:43.560 Candidates were more often tied in negative ads to people like Nancy Pelosi, Democratic Party

00:45:49.800 moderates, not to people like AOC or issues that are arguably on the fringe.

00:45:55.040 So what you saw was Joe Biden at the top of the ticket who said, my pitch is that I'm appealable

00:46:01.180 to Republicans, right?

00:46:02.760 Come out and vote for me, conservatives.

00:46:04.200 And he did, in fact, succeed in driving out turnout for a lot of never-Trump Republicans

00:46:09.100 who were frustrated with the president's way of running the country.

00:46:13.000 But what happens is a lot of those people might want Trump out of office, but they're

00:46:16.380 still Republicans who want to vote Republican down ticket.

00:46:19.060 And that's what was toxic to the ballot.

00:46:21.060 It was Joe Biden being at the top of the ticket that I believe was ultimately the cause of Democrats

00:46:25.920 failing so poorly in the House races.

00:46:28.380 What do you make is that we had James Carville on the show last week, I think it was, and

00:46:32.560 he said Medicare for all is a loser in the Democratic Party.

00:46:36.960 He said the Democrats who won, notwithstanding their embrace of that, won in districts that

00:46:44.280 are just incredibly heavily Democratic.

00:46:46.660 They're plus Dem by 20 points.

00:46:48.480 So he was kind of saying, show me a Democrat in a tight race who won endorsing that position.

00:46:53.280 They don't exist.

00:46:54.100 And that's not a winner for our party.

00:46:56.980 He's pushing away not just from the AOCs of the world, right, who have sort of a more

00:47:01.480 woke approach to life versus the Bernies of the world, which, you know, that's where

00:47:07.780 the sort of socialism accusation comes in.

00:47:11.920 Yeah, I mean, that's a hard case to make when every single Medicare for all supporter in

00:47:16.220 a swing district won.

00:47:18.160 I mean, there's just no statistical basis for what he's saying.

00:47:20.800 And when you look at the polls, it's obvious why.

00:47:24.800 Again, I mean, I know this feels like a, you know, it's difficult to over-rely on polls.

00:47:30.280 And, you know, given how pervasive the media narrative is to the contrary, on both sides

00:47:36.400 of the aisle, it's hard to believe.

00:47:38.180 But poll after poll, and increasingly so during the pandemic, show that this is what Americans

00:47:43.220 want.

00:47:43.500 And it's no wonder why, right?

00:47:45.440 The average American changes jobs 12 times in their lifetime.

00:47:49.480 And each time you change your job, you are at risk of losing your insurance coverage, not

00:47:54.000 just for you and for your family.

00:47:55.760 The average American family before the pandemic was paying upwards of $20,000 a year in premiums

00:48:02.380 for coverage that doesn't even guarantee that your costs are going to be covered, right?

00:48:06.080 You still have to pay out-of-pocket costs for co-pays and deductibles.

00:48:09.460 And many of us have experienced avoiding healthcare service because our deductibles are so high

00:48:16.420 that basically we use our insurance only for catastrophic outcomes, right?

00:48:20.880 And this pandemic has proven how unsustainable an employer-based model is.

00:48:25.580 It just doesn't make sense to only be able to be treated, to have cures for diseases and

00:48:32.160 to come down with something like cancer or diabetes like so many Americans suffer with,

00:48:36.100 not to mention COVID and the very expensive treatment that is required for COVID and to

00:48:41.120 not be able to get treated just because you've also lost your job because of the pandemic.

00:48:46.400 And I think it's getting harder and harder for Americans to swallow the idea, especially

00:48:51.820 coming from people who disproportionately and overwhelmingly are being paid by the pharmaceutical industry.

00:49:00.380 When you look at Joe Biden and his strident defense of the private healthcare industry,

00:49:05.120 there is a direct connection between that and the fact that he took more money from that

00:49:09.380 industry for his campaign than any other candidate in the race, more billionaire dollars than any

00:49:13.800 other candidate in the race.

00:49:14.880 And his chief advisor is a healthcare lobbyist.

00:49:18.060 That's not someone who is putting the healthcare interests of Americans first.

00:49:23.620 Yeah.

00:49:24.000 Well, it's obviously something that Bernie ran on and he wasn't selected as the ultimate nominee.

00:49:30.060 And then you could take that as a rejection of that position by Democrats.

00:49:34.400 But the bigger picture is an interesting one because the Democratic Party has been getting

00:49:39.280 linked more and more to big money, right?

00:49:41.440 Like, what is the Democratic Party right now?

00:49:44.000 We talked about this not long ago.

00:49:45.380 Is it the party of elites, media and otherwise, and big business, you know, Wall Street, big pockets,

00:49:53.780 deep pockets?

00:49:54.380 It's like the working class that used to vote Democrat pretty reliably seems more aligned

00:49:59.220 with the Republican Party now, even though Trump lost at the presidential level.

00:50:04.540 So what do you think?

00:50:05.720 I mean, is the Democratic Party the party of the elites now?

00:50:10.420 Yeah, I think that the problem, the fundamental problem with this country is that we have we

00:50:15.300 have two corporate parties.

00:50:16.340 There is no party in America that is truly beholden to the American people.

00:50:22.540 And I think Democrats don't fully embrace this as part of the impetus behind Donald Trump's

00:50:29.640 election in 2016.

00:50:30.720 But I think it's really core here.

00:50:33.500 I mean, Thomas Frank is an author who, you know, wrote Listen Liberal and What's the Matter

00:50:38.000 with Kansas.

00:50:38.900 And he really lays out historically what happened to the Democrats, who, as you point out, used

00:50:44.360 to have organized labor as its primary constituency and really served the interest of working Americans.

00:50:53.260 And after a series of losses throughout the 70s and 80s, Democrats decided that they had

00:50:57.760 to reconfigure.

00:50:59.680 The argument goes that the rise of television ads and the persuasive value of those ads meant

00:51:04.500 that Democrats felt the need to invest more in big money.

00:51:08.100 And they decided to play the same game that the Republican Party had been playing for some

00:51:11.960 time and courting big money donors.

00:51:15.120 And so that what you got was the quote unquote third way with Bill Clinton being the first

00:51:20.340 successful third way candidate that, in many people's eyes, validated that political choice

00:51:25.700 to abandon Americans for corporate interests.

00:51:29.280 And so what you have now is the shell game where Democrats pretend to be the better, you know,

00:51:35.340 and I think they are the better alternative to Republicans, if only because they at least

00:51:40.160 pretend and superficially will give nods to the interests of the more vulnerable people

00:51:47.180 in this America, in this country, working class people, poor people, various historically marginalized

00:51:51.800 groups, et cetera.

00:51:53.200 But the reality is that there are, you know, both parties take the money, money from the same

00:51:58.920 constituents.

00:51:59.480 The same corporations give to both candidates in a presidential cycle because they know that

00:52:04.640 their interests are going to be served no matter who wins.

00:52:07.620 And that's how you get this enormous gulf between polls that show most Americans want common sense

00:52:13.520 gun reform.

00:52:14.300 Most Americans want universal health care.

00:52:17.600 Most government, most Americans want marijuana legalization.

00:52:22.560 Overwhelmingly, Republicans want marijuana legalization.

00:52:25.040 But you don't have anybody in either party fighting for those things.

00:52:28.680 And what I think people saw with Donald Trump was an outsider who could potentially act on

00:52:34.880 what folks actually were desiring on a grassroots level because he was financially independent.

00:52:42.100 And of course, he didn't ultimately end up ruling in that way at all.

00:52:45.980 But that was the promise of a Trump.

00:52:47.440 And that was, I think, more sincerely, the promise of a Bernie Sanders candidacy.

00:52:51.000 And that candidacy, you know, was derailed largely by a concerted effort from the Democratic

00:52:57.560 establishment, who is very deeply financially invested in maintaining the corporate status

00:53:03.320 quo, including the media.

00:53:05.220 I mean, that was that was one of the crazy things that brought together the more left wing branch

00:53:09.960 of the Democratic Party and conservatives.

00:53:11.580 You know, this just the obvious bias and agenda of those who control the microphones

00:53:16.960 toward not just the left, but a certain kind of Democrat.

00:53:20.700 That's, you know, not the Bernie kind, the Joe Biden kind.

00:53:24.000 And to pretend that they didn't have a hand, the media, in getting Biden the nomination

00:53:28.480 and ultimately the presidency is is to ignore reality.

00:53:33.480 I mean, I know I read that you said I with respect to Biden's term, this is the quote,

00:53:40.860 I'm about to be so obnoxious.

00:53:42.600 You're going to pray for the days I was on the payroll and every other leftist should do

00:53:46.420 the same thing.

00:53:47.400 What does that mean?

00:53:48.200 I love that quote.

00:53:48.880 It's fun.

00:53:49.360 But what does it mean?

00:53:51.280 Well, what I was talking about was the fact that if you raise at this point, even the

00:53:55.740 most mild or timid critique of Joe Biden's candidacy, there's a certain cohort of online

00:54:04.120 media establishment Democrats.

00:54:07.080 I'm not talking about voters when I'm talking about people, Republicans or Democrats, but

00:54:11.800 you know, media figures, political actors who, if you criticize Biden, will say that you

00:54:19.240 support Trump or that you, you know, somehow are playing for the right team.

00:54:24.880 And during the primary or during the general election, rather, the argument went, OK, you

00:54:29.420 can push Biden to the left.

00:54:30.720 You can make your point after he's in office.

00:54:32.660 And now what you're seeing is that even after he's been elected, they're still acting as

00:54:37.460 though my critique can somehow be damaging to his ability to, you know, quote unquote,

00:54:42.740 defeat Trump.

00:54:43.560 So what I was pointing out was that I'm not going to stop fighting for the interests of

00:54:49.360 average everyday Americans just because political operatives find it to be inconvenient for folks to

00:54:55.280 point out that Joe Biden has had a long career of threatening to cut Social Security at a moment when

00:55:00.460 Americans had never needed the social safety net more.

00:55:03.000 I'm not going to be quiet about the fact that the kids in cages that everyone, you know, highlighted

00:55:08.820 rightly as a priority during the general election campaign, those cages were built under the Obama

00:55:13.720 era, who in Obama deported more people than Donald Trump ultimately did, you know, in his first

00:55:18.440 term and that these aren't issues.

00:55:20.740 You know, if we care about these issues, we should care about them not because it was a way to make

00:55:24.860 Donald Trump look bad or to highlight the ways that Donald Trump was genuinely bad.

00:55:28.660 We should care about those issues because those issues matter, no matter whether a D or an R is

00:55:33.340 in the White House.

00:55:35.120 That's I admire your principles.

00:55:37.280 The the administration, as it's currently shaping up, seems to be going another way,

00:55:42.780 given the way he's he's sketching out his cabinet picks so far.

00:55:48.340 They look like mostly, you know, former Biden and Obama advisors.

00:55:52.220 And the one who's taking most of the heat, some people so much so that some people think this is

00:55:56.660 like a head fake to just like be the lightning rod to draw all the heat away from everybody else.

00:56:00.480 But there's a real question about why he would have picked Neera Tanden for OMB.

00:56:04.760 This is she's she heads up the Center for American Progress.

00:56:07.480 It's a center left think tank.

00:56:09.300 John Cornyn of Texas, Republican senator, has says this woman stands zero chance of getting

00:56:13.760 confirmed.

00:56:15.040 Why is she so controversial?

00:56:16.280 I think that among your average Democrat, she's not very controversial.

00:56:22.580 I think that most people probably don't know who she is.

00:56:25.840 But for people who are online, perhaps terminally online like I am, she is, in fact, one of the

00:56:35.740 more toxic people, I would argue, on the Internet.

00:56:40.760 And she has a very long history of being openly hostile to what I would describe as progressives.

00:56:48.500 Of course, she describes herself as progressive.

00:56:50.100 But I don't think someone who, again, has a long record of entertaining cuts to what she

00:57:00.280 and conservatives describe as entitlement programs, what actual progressives describe as the social

00:57:05.280 safety net and the New Deal programs that make America a great country, is a progressive.

00:57:13.760 So she has a long history of antagonizing progressives, of being openly disdainful of people like Bernie

00:57:20.500 Sanders, of courting and cultivating friendships with toxic online figures who engage in bigoted,

00:57:28.360 hateful, ableist speech online.

00:57:32.440 And it's particularly distressing to a lot of Bernie Sanders supporters because of the way that we were

00:57:39.540 targeted and marked as, quote, unquote, Bernie bros who had an online problem.

00:57:45.220 When Bernie Sanders never described people who, you know, told jokes about autistic girls as her friends,

00:57:51.340 right?

00:57:51.740 Like, this is the kind of person that Neera Pandon is.

00:57:55.000 She's notorious for having, for example, assaulted Bernie Sanders' campaign manager,

00:58:02.260 Faz Shakir, when he was a reporter for ThinkProgress because he asked Hillary Clinton a question about

00:58:11.400 her Iraq war vote.

00:58:13.480 And Neera Tandon felt apparently more strongly about protecting her candidate than vetting issues

00:58:19.660 that are important to Americans or protecting her employee.

00:58:23.140 You know, there was another.

00:58:24.240 She was on record as saying, I would do whatever Hillary needs always.

00:58:28.520 I owe her a lot.

00:58:29.400 And I am a loyal soldier.

00:58:30.900 I mean, she's this is a Hillary Clinton person.

00:58:33.300 And she's made no bones about it.

00:58:35.980 And from the media, the biased media perspective, you know, the Podesta emails revealed that she

00:58:41.480 was one of the ones who was orchestrating, you know, a cadre of black and female journalists

00:58:48.860 in particular to weaponize their identity against Bernie Sanders and really push this idea that

00:58:55.280 he was somehow against the interests of historically vulnerable groups in this country.

00:59:01.420 Even while she and Hillary Clinton, you know, famously instigated, you know, conflict in Libya

00:59:08.700 that resulted in, you know, slave markets and all these other kinds of human rights abuses.

00:59:14.220 You know, the hypocrisy, the kind of wanton brazenness of the way that she's operated.

00:59:20.900 She is the quintessential in many ways visible Democratic Party corporate operative.

00:59:26.640 And it's just a real kind of thumbing of the nose at progressives for Joe Biden to even

00:59:34.680 float a pic like this as he's pretending to be interested in unifying the Democratic Party,

00:59:41.900 the bulk of which, frankly, are progressives who agree with a much more

00:59:47.880 to the left version of politics than he's advocating.

00:59:51.660 And I just want to say it's not to the left.

00:59:54.180 It's actually, again, these are these are what should be called centrist policies

00:59:57.820 because majorities of Americans support these things.

01:00:00.880 Didn't Biden promise to have some of the Bernie wing in his cabinet?

01:00:04.000 I mean, do you do you think he's going to live up to that?

01:00:06.620 No, you know, as evidenced by his pick, his pick, there's not a single Bernie supporter

01:00:11.800 among any of his picks, not not one.

01:00:14.280 Meanwhile, Republicans, of course, have gotten nods.

01:00:17.200 John Kasich, Cindy McCain have gotten nods.

01:00:20.320 But it was obvious from the way that he ran that he was more interested in courting Republicans

01:00:26.580 than he was in the constituents that fought and door knocked and donated to get him elected.

01:00:32.940 Can I ask you a question about woke culture?

01:00:36.920 Because I've been railing on that.

01:00:38.040 I'm not a fan and I don't like wokeness and I don't like cancel culture at all.

01:00:43.520 And I think your wing, the Bernie wing, has been sort of that's been that's been put around

01:00:50.780 your neck.

01:00:51.280 And I don't know whether you think that's fair.

01:00:54.260 You know, obviously, Bernie, he's he's got his economic positions and that's one thing.

01:01:00.160 And I know that's what attracted people like AOC to him.

01:01:02.980 But I wonder if you think that's an OK thing to align with sort of the wokesters or whether

01:01:09.000 you think that wing of the Democratic Party could get rid of that, what I think is an

01:01:13.540 albatross around you and and just sort of break out on economic policy, which might be

01:01:17.580 a lot more appealing to those same working class voters that, you know, went Trump.

01:01:21.920 The average Republican voter is not online.

01:01:25.320 They're not concerned or voting on the specifics of any particular third rail issue at any moment.

01:01:35.060 And to the extent that sometimes the Republicans will try to highlight some of those issues in

01:01:41.520 order to distract from, let's say, the fact that their political priority is a tax cut,

01:01:46.000 85 percent of which benefited, you know, went to the top one percent instead of for working

01:01:51.320 people, you know, that that can be of use to conservatives.

01:01:55.300 Right. And so there's a way that both sides weaponize third rail issues in order to distract

01:02:01.420 from the fact that two corporate parties aren't, you know, actually addressing the core needs

01:02:06.600 of their constituents.

01:02:07.500 Now, the reality is that I think most people don't care about what might be described as

01:02:12.500 fringe issues.

01:02:13.060 I would point to someone like Danica Roam, who was the first trans woman, I believe,

01:02:17.600 elected to state office.

01:02:22.060 And what she often says is, look, the people in my in my in my community didn't care that

01:02:26.780 I was trans.

01:02:27.580 I ran on bread and butter issues.

01:02:29.660 I ran on traffic lights and infrastructure and fixing roads.

01:02:34.320 And ultimately, nobody cared if I didn't make, you know, if, you know, I wasn't running on

01:02:39.660 being a trans woman.

01:02:40.780 I was running on fixing communities.

01:02:42.140 I agree with you that these issues can be a distraction, but it's it's a distraction

01:02:46.720 that is weaponized, I think, in a bipartisan way.

01:02:50.580 Brianna, so good to talk to you.

01:02:51.980 Same here.

01:02:52.460 Thank you so much.

01:02:54.920 Our thanks to Brianna Joy Gray, host of the Bad Faith podcast.

01:02:59.220 And in one second, we're going to be joined by Eric Erickson.

01:03:01.940 He is host of the Eric Erickson radio show, which is based in Georgia.

01:03:05.420 So he's got an insider's take on what to expect in these two key Senate races that are having

01:03:10.600 their runoffs there.

01:03:12.060 Before we get to him, though, let's talk about Norton 360 with LifeLock.

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01:04:38.460 Eric Erickson, thank you for being here.

01:04:41.320 Thank you for having me.

01:04:42.440 All right.

01:04:42.680 Let's talk Georgia.

01:04:43.780 This is your state and you know everything that's going on there.

01:04:47.120 Uh, let's just start with what just happened, which is Trump just tweeted out a message to

01:04:54.520 the Georgia governor, Brian Kemp saying, do something.

01:04:57.400 You allowed your state to be scammed.

01:05:00.440 We must check signatures and count signed envelopes against ballots.

01:05:03.920 Then call off election.

01:05:06.600 It won't be needed.

01:05:08.020 We will all win.

01:05:09.320 Presumably meaning call off the, the special election.

01:05:14.420 We're about to have that, you know, yeah, the runoff election, uh, for the Senate seats.

01:05:18.360 Meaning if you just do it my way, I'll have one and the other Republicans will have won.

01:05:23.260 And we don't have to go through this whole thing.

01:05:25.240 Now, of course, that's not going to happen.

01:05:26.520 Um, but what, what do you make of that Trump tweet?

01:05:29.780 Yeah, well, I don't know who's giving the president his information about Georgia, but

01:05:33.940 one, the governor here literally has no power under the constitution to do any of this stuff.

01:05:38.500 Uh, the secretary of state is the constitutional officer for election.

01:05:41.740 So the governor can't order a recount.

01:05:44.720 He can't do signature checks.

01:05:46.440 The other thing is that people are missing is, uh, under Georgia law, there was a time to

01:05:51.960 allow the parties to oversee signature checks done by local governments.

01:05:56.100 But that was up until the day before the election.

01:05:58.400 And the Republican party here never did it.

01:06:01.260 They say the secretary of state blocked their effort, but you got a Republican secretary of

01:06:06.360 state blocking the Republican party from looking at signatures.

01:06:09.320 I don't find it plausible, particularly when the law allows you to do it.

01:06:14.160 Uh, if there were screw ups in the election, it's not that the election was stolen.

01:06:17.500 It's that people dropped the ball before the election to oversee the integrity of the process.

01:06:21.860 And the governor's hands are right.

01:06:23.480 He's suggesting if you count envelopes mailed in and ballots, you're going to have more

01:06:28.920 ballots than envelopes.

01:06:30.280 In other words, somebody dropped a bunch of ballots for, for Biden, uh, into the count

01:06:35.320 that weren't in fact mailed in based on what we don't know, but that seems to be his implication.

01:06:40.040 Well, so, you know, they're, they are going back and looking at that in Gwinnett County,

01:06:43.860 which is the county that's shifting the most rapidly in the state demographically towards

01:06:47.940 the Democrats, uh, there have been some allegations from some poll workers that are about that.

01:06:51.900 They're looking, uh, the secretary of state's office, though, I've talked to them about this.

01:06:55.920 They say they find it very implausible because when you go into vote, your name is added to

01:07:01.200 a list of you coming into vote and the number of votes cast matches perfectly to the number

01:07:06.740 of names listed as people who voted.

01:07:08.320 So they're not sure how this is coming up, but they are going to check it.

01:07:12.980 Okay.

01:07:14.240 The, I mean, what do you, what is really going on here?

01:07:16.820 Cause I'll tell you from the outside, I'm in New York.

01:07:19.540 Um, it seems like Trump is turning on two loyal Republicans who absolutely wanted to see him

01:07:25.620 reelected.

01:07:26.360 These are not never Trump types, um, because he doesn't like the result, but there's only so much

01:07:32.660 they can do.

01:07:33.480 I mean, you tell me, is there more they can be doing to help him with his claims of fraud?

01:07:38.300 I think people from outside of Georgia don't understand our process here where we have

01:07:43.640 these dominion voter machines, but they actually print out a paper ballot that shows who you

01:07:48.900 voted for.

01:07:49.680 And you carry that paper ballot to a scanner that then scanned your vote.

01:07:53.700 And so you've got time.

01:07:54.920 In fact, when I went and voted, they told me, look and make sure it's right.

01:07:58.540 And it was, and I stuck it in the machine and it scanned and they hand counted the paper

01:08:03.220 ballots and they matched identically to the machines across all 159 counties in Georgia.

01:08:09.400 When you point that out, suddenly the argument shifts to absentee votes as well.

01:08:13.620 They might've been the absentee votes.

01:08:15.300 Well, maybe, but your time to contest that was before the election and no one bothered

01:08:19.960 to contest them at the time.

01:08:21.560 So yeah, the president is the first Republican since the nineties to lose the state at president,

01:08:25.500 but the Republicans swept every other seat in the state when people actually thought

01:08:29.480 they were going to lose seats, which is another reason they think it must've been fraud on

01:08:32.600 the president's part.

01:08:33.480 But actually when you examine the vote came from, it was North Metro Atlanta Republicans

01:08:38.260 who they're not really socially conservative.

01:08:40.840 They just want a good 401k.

01:08:42.320 They voted for Joe Biden and then voted Republican the rest of the way through the ballot.

01:08:47.060 So what do you make of these, the speculation that Georgia is really, it's purple now.

01:08:52.360 It's not solidly red.

01:08:53.840 Do you, do you, do you think that's true with Trump not on the ballot?

01:08:57.640 Not really.

01:08:59.280 When you actually add up all of the votes that were cast in congressional races and legislative

01:09:04.260 races in Georgia, the Republicans got 51% of all votes cast in congressional races, 53%

01:09:10.460 of the votes cast in state house races, 54% of the vote cast in state Senate races.

01:09:15.400 And when you add up, there were 21 candidates in the Loeffler-Warnock race originally.

01:09:19.040 When you add up all the right of center candidates, they got 53% of the vote.

01:09:22.880 So it's not really a Democrat state.

01:09:24.880 It certainly demographically suggests it's trending that way, but David Perdue got 45%

01:09:30.020 of the Hispanic vote in Georgia.

01:09:31.860 If he gets 50%, that shuts the Democrats out of the state.

01:09:35.440 If he gets, if he gets what percent?

01:09:37.720 If he gets 50% of the Hispanic vote, he got 45% of the general.

01:09:41.080 If Perdue gets 50% of the Hispanic vote and the odds are he can, it shuts the Democrats

01:09:46.540 out from this demographic shift in Georgia.

01:09:49.060 They just can't compete if Republicans make inroads with the Hispanic community.

01:09:53.320 Hmm.

01:09:54.400 All right.

01:09:54.940 Let's talk about the Senate runoff, because that's what everybody's looking at, right?

01:09:58.680 As interesting as the Trump legal challenge may be, I don't think as a lawyer we're going

01:10:02.920 to see that go anywhere.

01:10:04.560 But the Senate runoff is going to happen.

01:10:07.020 And so it's David Perdue versus John Ossoff and Kelly Loeffler versus Raphael Warnock.

01:10:12.200 So the Democrats are Ossoff and Warnock, and the Republicans are Perdue and Loeffler.

01:10:17.720 And you tell me, but I saw the latest poll shows it's tight.

01:10:22.340 It's really tight.

01:10:23.800 There was an insider advantage poll that shows Ossoff and Perdue tied, and one that showed

01:10:29.520 the Democrat Warnock up one over Kelly Loeffler.

01:10:33.000 And then there was another poll that showed her up plus four over Raphael Warnock.

01:10:37.560 So it's tight.

01:10:39.440 Yeah, it's tight, and the polling has been bad.

01:10:41.840 You know, historically in Georgia, if you look at 2014, 16, 18, and 20, the Democrats

01:10:46.600 are always ahead of the Republicans in the polling, and yet the Republicans always seem

01:10:50.200 to win the state.

01:10:51.460 What I would say that is most notable, as you look at the actual voting on the ground,

01:10:56.620 North Metro voters voted for Joe Biden and then voted for David Perdue and a Republican.

01:11:02.240 And then the most interesting aspect of this that's been completely ignored is that in South

01:11:07.460 Georgia, in overwhelming precincts, they voted for Joe Biden, and they would not even

01:11:12.780 vote in the David Perdue-John Ossoff race.

01:11:14.860 They voted for Raphael Warnock, but not for Ossoff.

01:11:17.480 Ossoff has a real problem connecting voters.

01:11:21.200 And a lot of people think, well, people are just going to show up and they're going to

01:11:23.460 vote in both.

01:11:24.100 But actually, in South Georgia, that didn't happen with Black voters.

01:11:26.840 And then North Metro voters didn't vote for Raphael Warnock.

01:11:30.200 They voted, a lot of them for Democrats, just not for Warnock.

01:11:34.600 So the Democrats have some latent problems here.

01:11:37.440 The Republicans, though, have a real problem, too.

01:11:39.360 That is, when you've got the president of the United States saying you've got a Republican

01:11:43.020 controlled state and yet the vote could still be stolen, you're going to have a lot of people

01:11:46.700 say, well, I'm not going to go show up in January because they'll just steal it again.

01:11:50.660 Well, exactly right.

01:11:51.540 I mean, the question of demoralization of Republican voters who believe the reelection was stolen from

01:11:59.180 Trump or who believe they can't trust the voting system.

01:12:03.320 I don't think the Democrats are feeling that way, but a lot of Republicans are.

01:12:06.380 So what how does that affect this this vote?

01:12:09.460 Well, it's going to be interesting to see how internalized this becomes with the GOP.

01:12:13.660 And right now, the state party is in this weird position where they're trying to affirm

01:12:17.980 that, yes, there were election anomalies.

01:12:19.920 We need to check this for the president.

01:12:21.280 But also, please, Republicans, go vote.

01:12:23.560 I think the most telling number in the state is 20,000, though.

01:12:27.360 There were 20,000 Republicans who voted absentee ballot in the primary, and they never showed

01:12:33.060 up at all in the general election.

01:12:35.020 If the Republicans can get those people to turn out, that gives them a 20,000 person edge

01:12:40.280 over the Democrats.

01:12:41.120 They just got to go.

01:12:41.720 They know who they are.

01:12:42.920 They got to convince them to vote.

01:12:44.200 A lot of these people didn't vote because the president said don't vote by absentee ballot.

01:12:48.100 And then they just forgot to show up on election day.

01:12:50.240 So if they turn out, that helps the GOP.

01:12:52.080 Think about that.

01:12:53.860 God, that's crazy.

01:12:54.840 You know, I'm sure the Trump campaign is revisiting all that messaging now and then some in states

01:13:01.200 other than Georgia as well.

01:13:02.460 So let's just talk about the you mentioned like John Ossoff has problems down there.

01:13:06.700 Can you explain that?

01:13:07.400 What I saw in the paper recently was he ate a vegan burger and then David Perdue tweeted

01:13:12.860 out a picture of himself eating bacon.

01:13:16.000 That's Georgia politics.

01:13:18.020 He doesn't he doesn't relate.

01:13:19.560 Well, this is what people seem to don't understand.

01:13:21.700 And there's there's a community in the Atlanta area around Emory University, DeKalb County,

01:13:26.980 Decatur.

01:13:27.500 It's very hyper progressive.

01:13:29.280 And Ossoff comes from that area.

01:13:31.540 He ran in the sixth congressional district, not living in that district.

01:13:35.420 He it was overwhelmingly had a massive Democratic fundraising advantage.

01:13:39.820 That district went to the Democrats a year later.

01:13:42.240 But in the special election in 2017, he lost it.

01:13:45.820 Black voters don't resonate with him.

01:13:48.200 He doesn't sound like he's from Georgia.

01:13:50.880 He doesn't seem to have Georgia values.

01:13:52.460 He's actually kind of funny.

01:13:53.500 The other day he was on MSNBC talking about gun control.

01:13:56.880 Well, literally at the same time I'm in Macon, Georgia, there was an ad on television on a

01:14:01.400 different station about his pro Second Amendment position.

01:14:04.840 So he just he doesn't align well with Georgia voters.

01:14:08.340 Now, OK, so if you had to put money on Perdue versus Ossoff, what do you what do you think

01:14:12.700 is going to happen?

01:14:13.280 I absolutely think Perdue wins.

01:14:15.220 I mean, when people ignores that David Perdue got forty nine point eight percent of the vote

01:14:19.400 to Ossoff, forty six percent.

01:14:21.280 Ossoff trailed Joe Biden by one hundred thousand votes.

01:14:24.220 Perdue actually got more votes than Donald Trump in Georgia.

01:14:26.960 It was a libertarian candidate who got three percent of the vote.

01:14:29.560 When you I know the libertarian voters in Georgia fairly well, they're mostly Second

01:14:33.860 Amendment rights activists and they'll come back for David Perdue.

01:14:38.860 And that would give the Republicans control of the Senate.

01:14:41.400 That's they really they only need to hold one of these.

01:14:44.640 They can afford to lose one, but they'd rather win both.

01:14:48.360 And so you see, do you think Kelly Loeffler is more vulnerable than David Perdue as a Republican

01:14:52.500 incumbent?

01:14:53.380 I do.

01:14:54.040 She's not a strong candidate.

01:14:55.460 She's not as well known.

01:14:56.440 She was appointed in January to replace Johnny Isakson.

01:15:00.140 But she's also a billionaire with a lot of money to spend between now and January to

01:15:04.400 boost her appeal.

01:15:05.660 OK, so and her opponent, as you point out, he's he's popular in the black community.

01:15:11.780 He was a popular reverend there.

01:15:13.360 But he's also said some things in that role from the, you know, the pulpit that have gotten

01:15:20.460 him in trouble, like the one that recently resurfaced from a 2017 sermon was he said that

01:15:25.760 racism is America's preexisting condition.

01:15:29.560 So, you know, he said it's a sickness that's impacting political discourse and so on.

01:15:35.260 And, you know, he's sort of if you listen to him, it seems like he's pretty much on board

01:15:38.600 with the America is a racist country.

01:15:40.860 It's systemically racist.

01:15:42.200 It's, you know, whatever.

01:15:43.680 It's the original sin that we're going to have to deal with that.

01:15:45.940 Now, that's that's how a lot of people feel, but not most Republicans.

01:15:50.640 So I don't think he's going to get a ton of Republican vote votes on that.

01:15:53.800 But does that does that rally the Dem base?

01:15:57.060 To a degree, except he's in the latest revelation came out today, actually, was that he's also

01:16:02.480 ridiculed gun owners.

01:16:03.760 You have a huge gun owning community in Georgia.

01:16:06.600 He's also called police thugs and bullies.

01:16:11.020 He's referred to them in pretty derogatory terms.

01:16:14.080 And if you look at the exit polling, forget the opinion polling that was all wrong.

01:16:17.380 The exit polling was pretty reliable.

01:16:19.140 And it showed in the Atlanta suburbs, which is where 55 percent of the turnout for this

01:16:24.200 election is going to be.

01:16:25.900 Overwhelmingly, the voters there, one, support divided government, but two, were really turned

01:16:30.740 off by the Democrats, socialism, defund the police agenda.

01:16:35.020 And Warnock has been very aggressively in support of the defund police agenda, which will alienate

01:16:40.160 him with independent suburban voters who are going to turn out.

01:16:42.900 He's got problems different from John Ossoff.

01:16:45.520 Ossoff has problems relating with black voters.

01:16:48.120 Warnock has problems relating with North Metro white voters that are going to turn out 55 percent

01:16:51.980 of the vote in the runoff.

01:16:53.180 All right.

01:16:54.060 So what, as a Republican, keeps you up at night about this race?

01:16:58.740 The president's language about Georgia, the Sidney Powell lawsuit, which, if you read it,

01:17:04.240 is a very frivolous lawsuit.

01:17:06.480 But there are a lot of activist supporters of the president.

01:17:09.260 Actually, I get death threats now on a regular basis from some of them for being dismissive of

01:17:13.360 these claims.

01:17:14.520 And if they internalize this too much, they're not going to show up and vote.

01:17:18.600 And that could hand the race to the Democrats when really the numbers support the Republicans.

01:17:22.440 Well, that's the thing is, it's like, if you have to take, even if you're a diehard Trump

01:17:26.860 fan, you have to take a hard look at what he's actually alleging and what he can prove.

01:17:30.840 I mean, even his most diehard fans have to know that.

01:17:33.980 It's about what he can prove.

01:17:36.140 That's where we are.

01:17:37.660 And if he can't prove what Sidney Powell in her typo-ridden lawsuit, I was stunned,

01:17:42.500 I have to say, a lawyer of her caliber to have submitted what she submitted.

01:17:45.860 She, just naming the district court, she spelled district wrong twice at the very first header of

01:17:51.300 the very first page of the pleading.

01:17:54.180 Shocking.

01:17:54.800 I mean, that's stuff a first-year lawyer would get fired for from a prestigious law firm.

01:17:59.820 One of her claims is that the certification for Dominion Voter Systems in Georgia has no date on it,

01:18:05.000 and that state law requires there to be a date.

01:18:06.940 And she has the exhibit.

01:18:08.000 I think it's Exhibit E in her complaint, shows the certification, but it's cropped.

01:18:14.260 If you look at the original, there actually is a date on it, and that's left out of the lawsuit.

01:18:18.460 I mean, all of these sorts of things.

01:18:20.200 It's very much like these hearings in Michigan and Arizona.

01:18:23.120 I was an elections lawyer in Georgia for a number of years.

01:18:26.020 There's always fraud in elections, just not enough to shape the outcome of the election.

01:18:29.780 But it's notable that in these hearings in Arizona and Michigan they're having right now,

01:18:33.580 none of those people filed affidavits and went to court.

01:18:37.440 The Trump lawyers didn't use them in court.

01:18:39.880 I have a hard time accepting the statement of someone when the Trump campaign itself

01:18:45.000 wouldn't use those people in court.

01:18:47.700 Well, but let's talk about that then.

01:18:49.520 Let's just talk about the Dominion Voter theme,

01:18:52.420 because I don't see any way forward for them on the vote-by-vote theme.

01:18:56.360 That's definitely not going to get them across the threshold.

01:18:58.840 But if you look at the Sidney Powell allegation, it's much more sweeping.

01:19:04.520 And she's saying, look, I have an affidavit from somebody who says these are not trustworthy,

01:19:09.580 that they can be hacked.

01:19:10.760 I have an affidavit from somebody who was there when they were created and said they really were

01:19:14.980 designed to help Hugo Chavez never lose an election in Venezuela.

01:19:18.660 Not that he's controlling it right now.

01:19:20.860 He's been dead for several years.

01:19:22.320 But that it was designed to be hackable.

01:19:25.140 And then another person saying, I can confirm it's hackable.

01:19:28.020 And then she's got somebody else saying, although it's much more ambiguous, and it was hacked.

01:19:34.060 And that, I just, I don't understand how you get there.

01:19:37.600 So, first of all, you know, they're conflating the Smartmatic software with the Dominion Voter

01:19:43.160 machines.

01:19:44.020 And Smartmatic is a company that was developed by a Venezuelan immigrant to the United States,

01:19:48.900 not for Chavez, although the machines were used there.

01:19:50.960 They're completely separate from Dominion.

01:19:52.380 But what they seem to gloss over is that Dominion was used in 14 counties only in Pennsylvania.

01:19:59.220 The president won 12 of those 14 counties.

01:20:01.980 In Pennsylvania and in Georgia, they actually print out a paper ballot showing who you voted

01:20:06.600 for.

01:20:07.520 And unless they were somehow printing out the wrong person on your ballot in Georgia and

01:20:11.800 you just ignored your ballot, the hand count in Georgia matches the machines perfectly.

01:20:15.860 I just don't see any of this stuff adding up.

01:20:19.080 And it's one thing to say a machine can be hacked.

01:20:21.220 I've got a Mac in front of me.

01:20:22.220 I know how to hack a Mac.

01:20:23.720 It can be hacked, but it hasn't been hacked.

01:20:26.680 There's no evidence these machines have been.

01:20:28.860 Mm-hmm.

01:20:29.660 I know, I don't really understand the theory that if you go into the voting booth, there's

01:20:34.640 an electronic screen, you hit Trump, then it spits you out your receipt.

01:20:41.020 And your receipt, unless you have tens of thousands of people, or at least over 13,000 people,

01:20:47.020 who got a receipt back that then said Biden, and they didn't check it, that's the only way

01:20:53.380 this scheme works, because the receipt, I don't even think they're alleging that they

01:20:58.360 had people go in there and change out the receipts, like in the middle of the person's

01:21:02.300 voting process, because the receipt then has to be fed into another machine.

01:21:05.860 It's not like you have it for a long time.

01:21:08.160 Right.

01:21:08.420 And so, you know, when I vote and I take my receipt, they tell me to look at it.

01:21:13.660 And everyone I know, my wife included, they said, look at it, make sure it's right.

01:21:17.320 And then when you scan it into a machine, it doesn't go through a machine and they can snatch

01:21:20.560 it on the other side.

01:21:21.400 It falls into a locked box that you have to then have the supervisor of the elections

01:21:27.100 open that box because no one there at the polling location has a key to get into the

01:21:30.940 box.

01:21:32.000 They seem to be saying that the Smartmatic software design was adopted by Dominion, that

01:21:38.600 ultimately was adopted by Dominion, not that they're working in tandem, but that Dominion

01:21:42.900 piggybacked on this Smartmatic software that was the Chavez creation, and that that's where

01:21:47.900 things got vulnerable, that these machines can be manipulated.

01:21:52.660 And they've spent a lot of time in their affidavits talking about how they can be manipulated,

01:21:56.320 but they kind of skip past without proof that they that they were manipulated.

01:22:02.380 The quote from the affidavit is that there is or from from her motion is there is incontrovertible

01:22:09.180 incontrovertible physical evidence that the standards of physical security of the voting

01:22:14.080 machines and the software were breached and machines were connected to the Internet and

01:22:21.620 Dominion saying the machines were not connected to the Internet.

01:22:25.000 Absolutely not.

01:22:25.700 And that the standards of physical security of the machines and the software were not breached and

01:22:32.220 no one knows exactly what she's talking about.

01:22:35.280 Right.

01:22:36.480 Look, any machine that has computer code can be hacked.

01:22:40.880 There's no evidence they were hacked.

01:22:43.220 If they were hacked, how did they throw the vote to Donald Trump in so many places that

01:22:47.740 that makes no sense?

01:22:49.500 And then, of course, you've got the physical paper trail of the ballots.

01:22:52.040 You know, ironically, the complaints that are being raised by Sidney Powell now are very

01:22:56.380 much what the Democrats were complaining about with these machines after 2016, that the Russians

01:23:01.660 hacked it.

01:23:02.500 But there literally is no evidence these machines were connected to the Internet.

01:23:06.880 In fact, in Georgia, given the way that these polling locations work, there's no way they

01:23:12.800 could have been connected to the Internet.

01:23:14.820 I mean, my local precinct is actually across the street from my house.

01:23:17.280 It's at a church and the machines aren't connected into fiber lines or Ethernet cable or anything

01:23:22.780 that I mean, there's they literally are not connected to the Internet.

01:23:25.860 Right.

01:23:26.360 I mean, the people who run these systems understand perfectly well how dangerous that could be

01:23:31.300 and how smart it would be.

01:23:33.240 So this has all been anticipated and provided for.

01:23:36.960 And, you know, Sidney Powell, she's got proof to the contrary.

01:23:39.360 We need to see it.

01:23:40.760 What do you think is going on right now?

01:23:42.060 Because I understand Trump does not like to he would never say I lost.

01:23:47.100 It's just not in his DNA.

01:23:48.440 But I'm surprised at how many of his voters are really just willingly going along with this.

01:23:55.500 I can understand the media screwed him.

01:23:58.440 I can understand big tech has censored him to the point where he probably lost probably

01:24:03.180 millions of votes.

01:24:04.140 You know, you Google something, it only brings you up messages that are pro Biden versus pro

01:24:08.140 Trump or there was an allegation that there there had been a message, go vote, sent out

01:24:13.920 by Google, but only to Democrats.

01:24:15.220 I don't know how it all works, but I understand those arguments as sort of a massive systemic

01:24:19.720 attack on Republicans and support, you know, attempt to generate enthusiasm for Democrats.

01:24:27.160 Never mind the Hunter Biden stuff.

01:24:28.980 I am surprised to see so many going along with the specific Sidney Powell allegations of fraud

01:24:34.460 that there's just no proof for.

01:24:36.480 Yeah, look, I am too.

01:24:38.820 And part of it is I have this recurring theme when people call in very angrily to my radio

01:24:43.680 show here in Georgia that they don't know anyone who voted for Joe Biden.

01:24:47.960 Therefore, Joe Biden couldn't have won, which is the Pauline Kael argument about Richard Nixon

01:24:52.240 back in the 70s.

01:24:53.080 She didn't know anybody who voted for him.

01:24:54.760 I knew that progressives tend to live in urban areas where they're in a bubble, very difficult

01:24:59.840 for them to interact with conservatives on a daily basis.

01:25:02.340 But I think conservatives increasingly are, too.

01:25:04.840 And because they don't know anyone who voted for Joe Biden, they can't understand how he

01:25:09.140 could win their state.

01:25:11.280 There also is, I really do think, this increasingly unhealthy grievance mentality.

01:25:15.640 It crosses partisan lines now in the country where you're a victim of the other side and everything

01:25:22.400 you do as part of team sport is, well, they stole it from me.

01:25:25.520 Just like if you're a UGA fan here in Georgia and they lose, well, it's the refs called the

01:25:30.380 game wrong and it's all their fault, not your team's fault.

01:25:33.100 So do you think Trump runs again in 24?

01:25:37.080 You know, I don't think so.

01:25:38.880 Now, listen, I didn't think he was actually going to run in 2016, full disclosure, nor

01:25:42.440 did I think he could win.

01:25:43.660 And he did.

01:25:44.620 So maybe he will in 24, but he'll be, what, 78, 79 years old at the time.

01:25:51.080 Given his ridicule of Joe Biden and his age, I don't know that he'll do it.

01:25:55.960 I also don't know if in four years if it settles.

01:25:58.940 For example, let's say the Republicans win Georgia in the runoffs, which is very likely.

01:26:04.020 Suddenly that debunks the whole idea of a fraud in the election because how come the Democrats

01:26:08.440 couldn't steal the Senate if they could steal the presidency?

01:26:11.000 And then I think that settles in with Republican voters over the next four years.

01:26:14.900 And Republican voters have a history of rejecting losers for when they come back again a second

01:26:19.120 time.

01:26:20.980 In the meantime, though, Trump is going to Georgia.

01:26:23.380 He's trying to help the two senators in their runoffs.

01:26:28.200 And Don Jr.

01:26:29.580 is heading up this pact now that's going to try to help them get reelected.

01:26:32.540 So the Trumps, including the big man, notwithstanding his rhetoric on Twitter, are trying to help.

01:26:38.820 So I don't know that, you know, how long the resentment would last, certainly if they win.

01:26:44.380 So what do you think happens if it's not Trump in 2024?

01:26:48.260 Where do you think that the Republican Party goes from here?

01:26:50.940 Gosh, you know, I get asked this question a lot.

01:26:53.800 And my theory is no one really knows what Trumpism is, per se.

01:26:59.400 What are the issues that define Trumpism, other than what Donald Trump says they are?

01:27:03.740 My suspicion is what you will find is a bunch of Republican candidates all claiming to be

01:27:08.840 the heirs to Donald Trump, repackaging whatever they already believe in populist rhetoric,

01:27:14.600 making it sound Trumpy.

01:27:16.680 And that's what you're going to see.

01:27:18.040 You'll see a Nikki Haley, a Josh Hawley, a Tom Cotton, a Ted Cruz, a Marco Rubio,

01:27:22.280 probably a Doug Ducey, and a Ron DeSantis, maybe a Kristi Noem, all running,

01:27:26.740 trying to put their gloss of populism on whatever issue they already believe.

01:27:33.080 And you'll have a very messy primary.

01:27:35.720 But I do think Donald Trump is going to be the kingmaker.

01:27:38.600 I don't think he'll run in 2024, but I think he'll be the kingmaker for the party.

01:27:42.500 So it puts him in a very powerful position for the next four years.

01:27:46.400 I know.

01:27:46.720 I just feel like, yes, he might want to return to power if he gets, you know, if it gets

01:27:51.620 confirmed, as we believe it will, that he lost this this round.

01:27:54.840 But Trump's probably going to go down to Mar-a-Lago and have a nice time with whomever.

01:28:01.000 And I just don't know if he's going to want to return to the White House.

01:28:04.300 He had a pretty good life prior to running, as much as people love power.

01:28:08.100 You don't get speaking fees when you're in the White House.

01:28:10.140 So he's going to have been former president getting speaking fees.

01:28:13.260 He's not going to want to give that up to go back to the White House and take a pay cut.

01:28:16.500 What do you think about Jr.?

01:28:18.020 Does Don Jr. have a political future?

01:28:20.180 You know, I'm intrigued by his super PAC firing up in Georgia.

01:28:23.600 He came down here very aggressively.

01:28:24.880 He and Eric Trump both did.

01:28:26.940 Don Jr. wore on the ground.

01:28:28.800 I think he wants a future in politics.

01:28:31.400 And he may very well, but they may set him up to be the heir to the Trump legacy.

01:28:35.440 I don't know if he can win the presidency, but I certainly think that he will have some

01:28:40.980 serious influence within the Republican Party and can get something out of it.

01:28:44.480 Here in New York, there is a story every other day about how the Trumps can't come back to

01:28:48.680 New York City.

01:28:50.000 You know, New York City hates the Trumps.

01:28:51.760 And you know what?

01:28:52.160 They're probably right because the city went 87 percent for Biden.

01:28:55.520 So it's not it's not even middle.

01:28:57.800 Right.

01:28:58.060 It used to be, I think, a little bit more moderate.

01:28:59.800 It's not anymore.

01:29:00.660 But what do you think?

01:29:03.080 Because I think notwithstanding the fact that the Democrats hate them, I admit that the

01:29:08.100 Republicans don't.

01:29:09.540 And I wonder what what's the future for Ivanka Trump?

01:29:13.320 Eric Trump wasn't as out in front.

01:29:15.520 His wife, Laura Trump, was a little bit more out in front.

01:29:18.180 But what do you think about the Trump kids, all of them and where they go from here?

01:29:23.300 Listen, I think that they have the opportunity now to cash in on the Trump name in a way they

01:29:28.080 couldn't while their dad was president, even though the media attacked them for it.

01:29:31.700 They really couldn't do it as much.

01:29:33.260 They've got the opportunity to run a great global franchise with the Trump name.

01:29:38.440 Maybe they can't move back to New York.

01:29:39.880 I think Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, they probably will.

01:29:43.480 They've got enough property interest there.

01:29:45.180 And there are parts of New York that they could probably settle comfortably without being

01:29:48.880 harassed all the time.

01:29:50.320 But at the same time, Eric Trump's already there with his wife.

01:29:53.080 They're not constantly getting harassed.

01:29:54.840 But, man, if I were them, I'd move.

01:29:56.720 I just love the Trump Hotel in Chicago.

01:29:58.280 It actually is one of my favorite hotels.

01:29:59.820 I'd move there or go down to Florida.

01:30:02.620 You've got plenty of states that went overwhelmingly for the president, including Florida.

01:30:05.940 It's a great place to live and it has no income tax.

01:30:08.640 Yeah, exactly.

01:30:09.620 I don't I would not recommend they come back to New York.

01:30:12.340 I don't think they're going to have a positive experience.

01:30:14.220 And I think their kids won't have a positive experience.

01:30:17.180 You know, that's the other thing.

01:30:18.620 Even if Ivanka and Jared can take it, you don't want their kids growing up hearing about how

01:30:23.060 what a demon grandpa was, right?

01:30:25.520 Like they're going to get that a little bit no matter where.

01:30:28.460 But, you know, I don't know.

01:30:29.660 I think if you can raise your kid in a place that has shared values to your own, it's probably

01:30:34.360 going to be easier.

01:30:35.400 Obviously, I'm right in the midst of trying to do that myself as I've announced we're

01:30:40.180 going to leave New York.

01:30:41.600 Maybe it's not perfect.

01:30:42.680 And I don't think you should go all one way or the other.

01:30:44.780 And I think Ivanka and Jared are probably, you know, they're secretly kind of Democrats.

01:30:48.620 Um, but I just think New York City is not the place for really anybody who's a Republican

01:30:54.380 right now.

01:30:54.720 They fit in perfectly here in Atlanta.

01:30:57.740 Is that right now, given the changing demographics?

01:31:01.160 Yeah, I think so.

01:31:01.780 With the changing demographics, it's still slightly more Republican.

01:31:04.900 You can be a Democrat or a Republican and not get heckled in Atlanta unless you're me.

01:31:09.920 So then they might as well come down.

01:31:12.360 Great.

01:31:12.940 Well, I'll tell them that you're going to arrange the dinner party.

01:31:15.560 Absolutely.

01:31:15.960 So good to catch up, Eric.

01:31:19.160 Thank you so much.

01:31:19.820 Great analysis.

01:31:20.840 Thank you so much for having me.

01:31:22.280 Our thanks to Rich Lowry, Greg Kelly, Brianna Joy Gray, and Eric Erickson.

01:31:26.480 Today's episode was brought to you in part by ScoreMaster.

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01:31:46.900 And a review if you feel so inclined.

01:31:49.700 And that would be a good thing to do because you don't want to miss Friday's episode.

01:31:52.660 We've got Andrew Sullivan.

01:31:54.900 He was at New York Magazine for a number of years.

01:31:58.080 And then suddenly, in the wake of the George Floyd death and the protests this summer, we were hearing less and less of Andrew Sullivan at New York Magazine.

01:32:06.200 He was being encouraged maybe to hold his pen for the time being.

01:32:10.640 And before we knew it, Andrew Sullivan was out of New York Magazine, which had an admonition for those who want to write anything that might be challenging of liberal doctrine.

01:32:23.540 Well, Andrew Sullivan is not one to be silenced.

01:32:25.960 And he's coming on the program.

01:32:27.480 This will be the first time I've ever spoken to him.

01:32:29.040 Back in my Fox days, I attacked him.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - December 02, 2020

Rich Lowry, Greg Kelly, Briahna Joy Gray and Erick Erickson, on Trump and Biden ｜ Ep. 32

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