The Megyn Kelly Show - Rittenhouse Takes Stand, COVID Overreach, and Lemon's Accuser Responds, with Sharyl Attkisson, Coleman Hughes, Robert Barnes and Dustin Hice

00:00:00.540 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.860 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We have an unbelievable show

00:00:16.380 for you today. Truly unbelievable. An extraordinary moment just happened in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial.

00:00:21.760 They put him on the stand. No one was expecting him to take the stand, but he just did. And we've

00:00:27.520 got a couple of just incredible highlights for you, which we'll play momentarily. And

00:00:32.880 we happen to have the lawyer who was representing Kyle Rittenhouse up until a week ago with us

00:00:39.940 today. So we'll get to that in just one minute. But we begin today with a very upset Don Lemon

00:00:45.640 and his equally upset lawyer. Turns out they watch The Megyn Kelly Show and feel rather

00:00:50.480 unhappy about the interview we did with the man accusing Don Lemon of assaulting him in

00:00:56.000 a bar in the Hamptons in July 2018. Now, Don's lawyer doesn't like it when one refers to this

00:01:02.420 case as an alleged sexual assault. We actually called it an alleged assault of a sexual nature

00:01:07.980 on the show, which it is. But I am happy to just refer to it as Dustin described on this

00:01:13.140 show on Monday. That time, Don Lemon allegedly put his hand in his pants, rubbed himself aggressively

00:01:17.780 and shoved two fingers into a stranger's face while asking, do you like pussy or dick? P or D,

00:01:22.540 P or D. Lemon's lawyer took to the press yesterday to try to portray herself as some sort of tough

00:01:28.760 gal. Sad. I mean, I remember being that lawyer trying to sort of make yourself sound tough.

00:01:33.680 I get it. I get it, sister. By claiming that she had fired off a nasty gram to yours truly,

00:01:39.460 except she didn't actually do that. She just sent it to the press because that's what she really

00:01:44.600 cares about, trying to convince the public that Don Lemon is not a pervert. I get it. These are

00:01:49.520 deeply disturbing allegations. But we're not going to be threatened out of doing our job.

00:01:54.380 We're going to continue to cover this story, including the January trial, because it's news

00:01:58.640 and we will continue, as we always have, to shed light on stories of alleged abuse and assault,

00:02:04.300 irrespective of politics or threats or of the celebrity status of the defendant.

00:02:10.740 As mad as the attorney, who, by the way, spends her spare time trying to make it as a legal commentator

00:02:16.140 on. Wait for it. CNN is at your humble correspondent. She's really ticked off at Dustin Heiss,

00:02:24.040 who she accuses of lying about a number of things in our interview and in this case.

00:02:28.280 Now, look, I have no dog in this hunt. I wasn't in that bar three years ago,

00:02:31.060 and ultimately it will be up to a jury to decide what happened that night.

00:02:35.000 But I do appreciate evidence as a recovering lawyer myself. And Lemon's attorney pointed to

00:02:40.020 some that we are happy to consider. It's quite piecemeal, selectively called from the record,

00:02:44.580 as lawyers do, with snippets of deposition testimony without the full transcript,

00:02:49.060 photos with no context and so on. But we wanted to know more. So we contacted all parties and

00:02:54.180 invited them on. Lemon's lawyer, so bold in the press earlier this week, suddenly got very shy

00:02:59.880 and didn't respond, though the invitation is still open. You can come on anytime you want to.

00:03:06.320 But Dustin Heiss and his attorney agreed to come back on the show and answer all of our questions.

00:03:12.720 So good news, Don and Don's lawyer. You want to talk more about this case in the press?

00:03:18.480 And so do we. Joining me now, Dustin Heiss and his attorney, Robert Barnes.

00:03:24.360 Hey, guys, thank you very much for being back, Dustin. And nice to have you here, Robert.

00:03:28.260 So let me just start with her first denial. You told me on Monday, Dustin, that Don Lemon's team

00:03:34.840 offered to settle the case for four hundred thousand and in total made three settlement offers.

00:03:38.940 She has now denied that, saying they have made no settlement offers other than an eight thousand

00:03:44.540 dollar. It's called an offer of judgment, basically nuisance value. So who's lying?

00:03:51.260 She is. I got three separate settlement offers, four hundred grand in the first beginning before

00:03:58.500 it all went to the public. And then sometime after that, another I believe it was twenty five thousand

00:04:04.400 dollars and then some of the eight thousand dollar nuisance or whatever she calls it.

00:04:10.000 OK, so one for four hundred thousand, one for twenty five thousand and one for eight thousand.

00:04:14.880 Correct. OK, so what the four hundred thousand one was offered prior to you filing the lawsuit.

00:04:20.880 Correct. OK, now they say that you offered to pay a key witness in the case who we discussed

00:04:27.260 on Monday. His name is George Ganales in exchange for his testimony. He's your main and I believe

00:04:33.020 only witness other than yourself. I mean, you're going to testify that this happened to you.

00:04:37.700 And George, we talked about this on Monday and he gave an interview to Fox News dot com

00:04:42.480 has said he saw the whole thing and that you're telling the truth. They say that you offered to

00:04:47.640 pay him for his testimony and that you failed to produce the texts showing that in discovery.

00:04:52.880 OK, here's an example. On March 24th, 2019, they have a text where you write to him,

00:04:58.140 you know, if I get money, I'll take care of you, my dude. And George testified at his deposition.

00:05:03.460 I'm assuming that that Dustin meant he'll give me something if he wins something.

00:05:07.600 Then there's a text shown to George in his deposition where you say, Dustin, you say we're

00:05:12.840 celebrating after all this shit. George says any word on that. You say, I got you. I'm a man of my

00:05:18.280 word. George again at his deposition. I guess he's insinuating if he gets anything, he'll take care of

00:05:22.640 me money wise. And then another text. You, Dustin, to George, you're the star witness.

00:05:27.920 LOL, George, I'm in you. You know, I'll take care of you. So these do sound like offers to pay

00:05:33.920 George for his testimony. Why did you do that? Well, George took a huge risk in speaking out on

00:05:41.200 me. He had only known me for a few weeks prior to the incident happening. And, you know, and quite

00:05:46.400 frankly, he suffered a lot of damage because he lost a job working for a celebrity. And one of the

00:05:52.320 reasons why a lot of people don't want to speak out is because they're fearful of what the

00:05:56.500 repercussions would be. So you were aware of the fact that he might be reticent given the

00:06:02.700 blowback he might get in the Hamptons with the celebrity community? Correct. Is that what you're

00:06:07.800 saying? Blacklisted. If you speak out against celebrities, it's like taboo in the Hamptons.

00:06:12.180 When you came on on Monday, you suggested that he'd been fired from a job with a very well-known

00:06:16.080 celebrity after the Fox News dot com article with him hit. We now know from the deposition

00:06:21.820 transcripts, the pieces that we've seen that celebrity was Madonna. So you're saying Madonna

00:06:27.460 got wind of his Fox News dot com article and fired him. Correct. We did. How does he know

00:06:34.180 it was related to the interview? He from what I gather, he had a publicist read. I Googled

00:06:41.600 him or something and his name came up as a witness and she's she fired him because of that.

00:06:46.600 Now, I'm going to ask your lawyer this in a second, Dustin. But why didn't you produce

00:06:50.420 those texts between you and George in the course of discovery? They suggest this was you trying to

00:06:55.340 hide evidence. Quite honestly, I had hundreds and hundreds of texts and Facebook messages and I

00:07:02.200 gave them I gave my attorneys at the time my passwords to go through and look, find whatever

00:07:07.020 they can. I produced everything that I willingly had and knew about. I wasn't trying to hide any

00:07:13.540 evidence from them. Robert, what about that? Because they're asking for the case to basically

00:07:17.680 be thrown out because they say Dustin hid evidence. Well, it's a case of confession through

00:07:23.720 projection because the only party who has failed to produce meaningful text, DM, social media

00:07:29.460 information, emails, phone messages is Don Lemon, who's produced almost nothing claims. He has nothing

00:07:36.640 at all that could possibly be pertinent or relevant to this case or to any other accusations or allegations

00:07:42.020 that have been made against him in the past. So the only person that's hiding information and hiding

00:07:47.440 documentation is Don Lemon himself. Dustin has produced hundreds and thousands of text messages,

00:07:53.620 DMs, personal accounts, social media accounts, everything imaginable. He has overproduced, quite

00:07:59.960 frankly, whereas Don Lemon has produced next to nothing. So it's mostly a case of them projecting onto

00:08:05.440 Dustin what Don Lemon himself has been up to. But you did delete your Twitter. I think you told me that

00:08:10.660 two on Monday, Dustin, but then you restored it, as I understand. Yeah, I mean, I did that to just

00:08:16.100 avoid bully tactics from people. And I, I, to my knowledge, I was thought I was putting it like,

00:08:22.980 you know, deactivating it where I could go back on, but I ended up deleting it. But there was nothing on

00:08:28.320 there about CNN. Again, I never paid any attention to CNN, except for being bored one day and having a day

00:08:35.760 in Atlanta where I went and toured the studios. And, um, prior to that, I'd only watched, you know,

00:08:42.140 Anthony Bourdain and, and never paid any attention to Don Lemon or. Yeah. Now there's absolutely zero

00:08:47.580 evidence that I've seen that suggests you had any sort of a focus on Don Lemon prior to this encounter

00:08:52.280 in the bar. Okay. Let's talk about Isabel. There's a witness named Isabel who was in the bar on the night

00:08:57.700 in question. She's a friend of yours. And you texted George asking about what this woman Isabel

00:09:03.700 might say about this case. And George responded, quote, she knows it happened, but she would 100%

00:09:09.900 lie to protect Lemon. He then goes on. This is George again. I would try and move away from her.

00:09:15.080 She's a C word and we'll try to ruin this. Ruin what? What specifically was the concern there?

00:09:21.520 Well, so George and Isabel had a relationship somewhat, I guess you could call it over that

00:09:27.920 summer. And, um, she is a resident of Sag Harbor as are her parents. And at her high school graduation,

00:09:35.020 uh, they, her parents know Don Lemon, their friends are acquaintances. And at her high school

00:09:40.180 graduation, they even got Don Lemon to speak at her high school graduation. So she's well aware of

00:09:45.880 everything that's transpired. But, um, you know, I don't, because of their close relationship with him,

00:09:51.080 I don't know if George and her, they, they were not dating anymore. And he, he said he implied that

00:09:58.540 she would be willing to, um, lie on his behalf. Yeah. I mean, he says that in, in writing in the same

00:10:05.860 text exchange, she would 100% lie to protect Lemon, but she, she will try to ruin this. Basically what

00:10:11.000 the other side suggests is that this kind of sounds like two witnesses settling on how to keep out

00:10:16.680 testimony that may conflict with what you and George were going to say. Is that fair?

00:10:22.820 Well, she's well aware of what happened. She was with us almost every night and the constant

00:10:27.000 harassment and, you know, um, antagonizing I got from being out. She's, she saw, witnessed it,

00:10:34.080 you know, the lemon drops and people tossing lemons full, like real lemons across the bar at me.

00:10:39.160 Um, you know, not jokingly, but to me, it wasn't very funny.

00:10:43.240 What do you make of the fact that she apparently testified? She doesn't believe George did witness

00:10:47.460 this exchange. She believes George was talking to her at the time this took place and that George

00:10:51.720 is not actually an eyewitness to anything.

00:10:54.380 Well, George was right next to me when it happened. So, I mean, I don't, I can't speak to her

00:10:59.320 thoughts on her, her testimony.

00:11:01.500 All right. Let's talk about that because, um, one of the things that they are pointing to is that

00:11:05.880 George at his deposition wavered a bit on his testimony. He's your star witness. Again,

00:11:10.600 you're the real star witness, but he's all, he's your best and only, uh, he testified at his

00:11:14.700 deposition repeatedly. I looked at the, just the pages that their lawyer submitted. I haven't read

00:11:18.880 the whole deposition transcript. I'm sure there's stuff in there that's good for you too. Um, anyway,

00:11:23.300 he testified at his deposition repeatedly that he did see Don Lemon rub his genitals and then your

00:11:28.680 face, but she kept coming at him over and over and over. And later he did waiver, um, ultimately saying

00:11:34.240 that he wasn't sure if he actually did see Lemon touch you saying, quote, I'm not 100% sure if I

00:11:40.640 saw it or not point for Don Lemon. No. I mean, I can't speak to it to that deposition, but George

00:11:49.440 saw it all happen. And he was, he actually was the, one of the ones that, uh, teased me and

00:11:54.160 antagonized me about it more than anybody. Cause he was my boss. And every day I went into work and

00:11:58.940 he'd be like, you know, two fingers up and edge, you know, I can't speak to that, but I can tell

00:12:04.760 you that I did over 10 hours worth of deposition. And by the end I was feeling a little shaken and,

00:12:10.480 and, uh, despondent to say the least. Yeah. Well, these things can be unpleasant. That's for sure.

00:12:16.120 Robert, what do you make of that? Because, you know, George repeatedly said it happened and

00:12:20.340 happened and happened. I saw it. And then as time went on, he did waiver and started saying,

00:12:24.260 I don't know. I'm frustrated. You asked me so many times. I'm not sure. You know,

00:12:28.720 you think you see it and you say it so many times over and over, and then you're not sure

00:12:31.600 whether you imagined it. He said that. Yeah. It's basically a case of a lawyer

00:12:36.560 badgering about every tiny little subcomponent. And what George is talking about is just one

00:12:42.100 component of it. What has been undisputed throughout this case is that George has from the get go long

00:12:47.380 before any of the texts that they're complaining about has always said what happened is what Dustin

00:12:52.800 said happened. Indeed, there's going to be evidence to trial that Isabel said the same thing.

00:12:57.680 So if she gets up and tells a different story now, uh, even though she lawyered up in these

00:13:01.840 proceedings, actually ended up with the, one of the magistrates assigned our case at one point was on,

00:13:07.020 was part of the law firm that was representing her. So there's been a lot of interesting developments

00:13:11.540 in this case, but, uh, what all of the evidence is that I have found supports Dustin's story.

00:13:16.620 One hundred percent. Hmm. Uh, by the way, we should tell the audience, we asked George,

00:13:20.460 we tried to reach out to George to get him to come on. No luck, uh, on that front, but he

00:13:24.240 were told stands by his story that he is going to testify on your behalf. Um, let's talk about

00:13:29.220 these pictures. So you and Isabel one night after the alleged assault went while still in the Hamptons

00:13:35.140 summer of 2018 to Don Lemon's home, went on his lawn and seemed to have a hell of a time, uh, posing

00:13:42.420 with lemons. There's one shot of you with a lemon in front of your crotch. Um, there it is. And his,

00:13:49.200 his team is suggesting you at this point in time are suggesting you were undergoing severe emotional

00:13:55.120 distress, that you suffered suicidal ideations, that you were in fear for your safety and that

00:14:00.020 these do not reflect a man in that mental state. What say you? Well, this was one of the darkest

00:14:07.420 times of my life. And I know it might seem like that through those pictures, but, um, you know,

00:14:11.640 there is no guide guidelines or handbook on how to deal with what you're going through,

00:14:15.600 especially when you're, uh, being harassed and antagonized and ridiculed and teased about

00:14:23.400 something that happened to you and you're around all your peers. Um, that particular night, um,

00:14:29.440 if I remember correctly, we, we had been drinking and, um, Isabel knowing knew where Don Lemon lived

00:14:35.680 and everybody's like, Oh, here's some, here's some lemons. And they threw it across the bar at me.

00:14:40.260 And I was holding a lemon and we walked about two blocks away and took some pictures there. And

00:14:45.260 quite frankly, I, I don't, I can't tell you what my thought process was. Then I just was trying to

00:14:50.560 fit in, in a place where I was kind of laughing stock and a joke. Um, but you know, I, again,

00:14:57.660 there's no way that there's no guideline to like get through this. And, um, when I finally got back to

00:15:04.680 Florida and processed all the stuff that happened on a daily and nightly basis is when it really

00:15:09.940 started to affect me. I mean, I have to say, I can understand Robert, the need for a male,

00:15:14.820 a straight male who's been approached in this way in a bar, according to him. And all of his friends

00:15:20.500 are sort of giving him jazz about allegedly having this encounter with a man who's openly gay,

00:15:26.380 just trying to laugh it off. I mean, I don't know if you obviously shouldn't have gone on Don

00:15:30.120 Lemon's property. But, uh, I, what do you make of it? Cause it's those pictures in front of a jury,

00:15:34.620 they may not play so well. Well, it's a very common defense tactic to take this path. And,

00:15:40.340 uh, but anybody that's, I've been representing victims of assault and abuse and harassment

00:15:44.540 for more than 20 years. And this response is actually quite common. People are trying to get

00:15:50.460 back the power that they lost when they were either assaulted, harassed, or abused, because that at core,

00:15:56.760 almost all, whether it's sexual abuse, sexual harassment, sexual assault, all of it is more

00:16:01.800 about power than it is about sex. And down deep, it's the power that you're, that's stolen from you

00:16:07.380 and your ability to try to recover that people respond to a wide range of manners. So it's not

00:16:13.920 a surprise at all. What's interesting is all of these stories that the defense is highlighting

00:16:18.500 are stories where everybody believes what happened to Dustin happened to Dustin. And because otherwise

00:16:25.300 the stories make no sense, otherwise the jokes make no sense. Otherwise the harassment make

00:16:30.480 no sense. And so it's just further proof that Don Lemon is guilty and he should step up to the

00:16:35.360 plate and accept responsibility for it. Well, what do you, why can't, why couldn't it be that Dustin,

00:16:40.300 you know, I'll play devil's advocate that Dustin made up this story. This is what his lawyer,

00:16:44.420 Lemon's lawyers, Dustin made up the story, told everybody the story. And that's why Dustin was

00:16:47.920 getting mocked. And Dustin was willing to take that bullet for an eventual payday.

00:16:51.900 It's just, why would people spend all this time mocking and harassing and making jokes and doing

00:16:57.220 all of this over a story that's not true? It doesn't really make sense. And from my understanding

00:17:01.800 of talking to all of the people that have been involved in this, all of them believed it was

00:17:05.800 true. And so they may, one or two may be trying to change their story. Now we'll see if they'll

00:17:10.420 actually testify to that. But the net effect of it is their behavior only makes sense if the underlying

00:17:15.860 story is true. And there's only one side in this case that's scared of a jury trial. And that's

00:17:20.940 Don Lemon's side. They're the ones begging the court not to allow a trial by jury. If they think

00:17:25.660 they're right, if they're this confident, they should want a jury to vindicate and validate their

00:17:30.000 story. But instead, they're begging the court not to allow a jury to try this case.

00:17:34.240 Dustin, you made some unkind posts about Don Lemon. One, forgive me, called him a cocksucker.

00:17:42.720 Forgive me. And also, it appears, although I guess I should ask you that there's one photo,

00:17:49.240 it's the lower photo that's cut off in this picture we're showing, we'll show to you where

00:17:53.220 the it's a ID. A ID is written over. It looks like aid maybe is part of, I don't know, AIDS. I'm not

00:17:59.100 sure what that means. And his team is sort of pointing at this saying, you know, you were hostile.

00:18:06.140 You were potentially mocking his sexuality. Can you respond to this? Why did you do this?

00:18:13.380 Yeah, I mean, wouldn't anybody be hostile if they went through what I went through when he did to me?

00:18:17.480 I, you know, I've gone through a range of emotions through this has happened. And it's ranged from

00:18:24.720 anger and hate and just despising him. And although I don't like him anymore, I've just

00:18:31.200 gotten past the point of anger, because what's the point in putting posts out there in the echo

00:18:36.840 chamber? And, you know, the other thing is, if, you know, when he when he rubbed my fit, his genitals,

00:18:43.720 and then rubbed my face, if he had had some kind of STD or something like that, you know, that could

00:18:49.020 be he could have smeared it, for lack of a better word on my face. And it's just something that was

00:18:55.680 really disgusting. And I was angry and speaking out on it. I mean, you heard you heard me say at the

00:19:01.480 top, his lawyers taking issue, what we described it as an assault of a sexual nature. Do you consider

00:19:08.000 this a sexual assault? It's you've sued him for assault. But do you consider this to have been

00:19:12.740 a sexual assault? Absolutely. I mean, like I just said, you know, if he has some some kind of disease,

00:19:19.520 then I could have put that in my face. And then on top of it, if I would have done that to him,

00:19:24.140 they would have called this a hate crime, you know. So if there's just it's it was disgusting and

00:19:30.700 repulsive. And I've had to deal with it now for over three, three years. And it's just amazes me that

00:19:37.620 they're fighting it like this and denying. Robert, they CNN has inappropriately, in my view,

00:19:44.160 injected itself into this controversy, has no business representing Don Lemon in this way.

00:19:47.940 It has a responsibility to its own employees not to telegraph that it does a knee jerk defense of

00:19:52.360 someone accused of this kind of disgusting behavior. He needs his own PR person, his lawyer

00:19:59.100 or whoever else she wants to use. Fine. That's that's different. But CNN doesn't belong here.

00:20:04.520 I wonder what you think about how CNN has behaved in this whole case.

00:20:08.200 Well, I mean, one of the reasons why I got involved in the case is here you had one of

00:20:11.960 the most powerful media networks in the world waging war against a bartender from the Hamptons

00:20:18.720 who was assaulted. And by the way, the definition of the assault meets the definition of sexual assault

00:20:23.480 under the federal rules of evidence, as we've already actually litigated in this case. And so I was

00:20:28.700 offended by that because here you have a powerful media institution trying to crush a little guy,

00:20:32.540 not try to investigate to get to the bottom of it, not try to resolve it, not try to mediate it

00:20:37.760 if they're going to get involved, but instead come to bat for their million dollar anchor and to

00:20:43.460 support lies against an innocent kid. And it's sort of it's deeply morally offensive how they've tried

00:20:49.240 to leverage their power and their influence to sort of bully and intimidate just an ordinary person.

00:20:54.540 And, you know, it's a story that happens in the Hamptons a lot. A lot of people get run over by the

00:20:58.400 powerful and the privileged in the Hamptons and it's time somebody do something about it.

00:21:02.580 What do you make of I know you weren't his lawyer at the beginning of this case,

00:21:06.660 but is it your understanding that Lemon's team offered four hundred thousand dollars to settle

00:21:12.900 this case? I can't speak to any settlements that might have confidentiality attached to them,

00:21:18.540 and I was not part of it at the time. So I'm unaware of what settlements were or were not offered

00:21:23.480 anyway beyond what might be privileged or confidential. But I'll put this settlement out there.

00:21:28.080 Don Lemon's people say that this case is about money. Dustin has authorized me to offer a

00:21:34.260 settlement that if he confesses and apologizes, we'll dismiss the case entirely with prejudice

00:21:38.280 without a penny, nickel, dime or dollar being paid. So if they're serious about rectifying and

00:21:44.760 remedying this, they can take action. This case isn't about money. It's about justice.

00:21:49.060 How about the polygraph? Dustin says he took one that he passed. Have you seen that?

00:21:53.400 I have not personally seen it, but I'm aware from prior counsel that that's the case.

00:21:57.260 Okay. And what about, like, why did you took this case? You represented him. You're a legit lawyer.

00:22:04.640 You've taken on very big cases. And often in a case like this, sadly, a guy like Dustin would wind

00:22:10.780 up with sort of second tier counsel. You're not. So why are you involved in this?

00:22:15.540 Because basically what unites all of my cases, they're underdog cases. This was an ordinary,

00:22:20.260 everyday person being crushed and bullied by the system, often lawyers helping to facilitate that.

00:22:25.900 And that just offends me to the core of who I am. And so he needed defense. I wanted to see him get

00:22:30.660 a defense. I can't always equalize the playing field, but I do what I can to do so. And particularly

00:22:35.660 in circumstances like this. Was Don Lemon deposed in this case? Yes, he was. And do you believe his

00:22:43.560 testimony was truthful? No, I believe he committed perjury in his deposition. I believe he will commit

00:22:49.100 perjury again at trial because I'll be calling him as a witness and I'll be able to prove it.

00:22:54.220 And so we'll see if he repeats the same lies at trial. But if he does, we'll catch him in a second

00:22:58.800 act of perjury. Do you think this will go to trial in January as scheduled? Yes, I do.

00:23:04.200 Wow. And do you have any surprises up your sleeve? I'm sure you don't want to tell us what they are,

00:23:08.320 but do you have any surprises for Don Lemon at the trial? Yes. Don Lemon's people are talking a lot

00:23:12.420 about witnesses. They should remember that impeachment evidence and impeachment testimony

00:23:16.460 I don't have to disclose until Don Lemon lies on the stand. But if he does, we will catch him and

00:23:21.680 we will prove it at trial. Can you tell us how he perjured himself? I'd rather save that so that

00:23:27.300 see if Lemon repeats it at trial. Well, listen, I want to reiterate that the lawyer,

00:23:32.640 the tough talking lawyer, look, I get it. She's trying to act, you know, I'm truly I used to be that

00:23:37.020 person. I used to practice law and especially as a woman, you try to act super tough like, yeah,

00:23:41.340 OK, whatever. It's fine. She can come on any time. Dustin's come on twice now. Don Lemon,

00:23:46.300 you're welcome to happy to have an open, honest discussion with you about all the proof in your

00:23:51.220 case. And you can tell us whether you did or did not do what Dustin has alleged in great detail.

00:23:56.980 Same for his lawyer. Both are welcome. And listen, Dustin, you're a stand up guy. You came back. We

00:24:02.500 called you up, said, do you want to come talk about this? You said, absolutely. I'll be there.

00:24:05.720 Robert as well. And we're grateful for your for your willingness to come on. Thank you.

00:24:10.140 Now, listen, we want to tell you that Robert is staying with us for breaking news in the Rittenhouse

00:24:14.680 trial. Robert was up until a week ago an attorney for Kyle Rittenhouse, and he has plenty of insight

00:24:20.240 into what we just saw. An extraordinary morning in the trial of Kyan Rittenhouse as he took the stand

00:24:26.280 against all odds. Nobody believed this was going to happen in his own defense and some fireworks

00:24:30.680 taking place right now. Stay tuned. We'll get to it.

00:24:33.120 In an extraordinary turn of events in Kenosha, Wisconsin, Kyle Rittenhouse has taken the stand

00:24:45.660 today to testify in his own defense this morning when asked about the circumstances that led to him

00:24:52.440 shooting Joseph Rosenbaum. Now, keep in mind, he shot three people. Two were killed. One was injured.

00:24:59.800 The third has taken the stand against Kyle Rittenhouse at this trial.

00:25:04.820 And so we're talking about the first man that he did shoot and kill, Joseph Rosenbaum.

00:25:10.520 Of course, Kyle says he was there to provide medical help. He wasn't there to cause havoc,

00:25:14.640 but havoc did ensue. Kyle broke down on the stand while recounting being surrounded and cornered

00:25:21.820 right before that shooting took place. This led to the trial having to be paused. Watch this.

00:25:28.180 When you step back from Mr. Zeminski, what's your plan?

00:25:33.780 My plan is to get out of that situation and go back north down Sheridan Road to where

00:25:40.520 the car source lot number two was.

00:25:45.320 And did you get back? Were you able to go in a northerly direction?

00:25:51.060 I wasn't.

00:25:52.280 Describe what happens.

00:25:53.260 Once I take that step back, I look over my shoulder and Mr. Rosenbaum, Mr. Rosenbaum was

00:26:04.040 now running from my right side.

00:26:08.220 And I was cornered from in front of me with Mr. Zeminski.

00:26:18.620 And there were...

00:26:22.940 There were three people right there.

00:26:31.460 Take a deep breath, Kyle.

00:26:43.780 That's what I...

00:26:45.240 That's what I run.

00:26:53.460 We're going to just take time for our break anyway. You can just relax for a minute, sir.

00:27:02.760 Oh my gosh, he's only 18.

00:27:05.780 Still with me is Robert Barnes, who, in addition to his work on Dustin Heiss's case that we just

00:27:10.600 discussed, has previously served as Kyle Rittenhouse's civil attorney up until recently,

00:27:16.080 as a matter of fact.

00:27:16.680 Robert, thanks for sticking around. My goodness. He is such a young kid and is in so much trouble

00:27:25.840 as a result of this night. Let me just ask you first for your overall reaction to the fact that

00:27:29.920 he took the stand and really struggled to control his emotions.

00:27:34.220 Yeah. I mean, my view is I think people who recognized it correctly is it's PTSD.

00:27:39.440 Kyle, that night, they saw him white as a ghost as the witness testimony, pale, sweating profusely.

00:27:45.940 He spent the next three weeks when he was in jail awaiting extradition, vomiting every single night,

00:27:52.060 couldn't keep anything down. So it's someone that experienced extreme trauma because he's a very

00:27:57.280 naive, innocent kid. You know, he didn't really think anyone would cause him any harm. And

00:28:02.100 everything that happened that night is still a complete shock to him, to his core. And, you know,

00:28:07.480 he's been mischaracterized and lied about by the press extensively when he's just a nice,

00:28:13.700 innocent, blue collar kid who's now, you know, put under the gun because of, in my view,

00:28:18.920 a politicized prosecution.

00:28:20.720 Mm hmm. The can I just show the audience just a sample of the media? I mean, the media has been so,

00:28:27.680 to say, closed minded on the possibility that he may not be this guilty killer.

00:28:34.220 Here's just a sampling of how the media has handled its coverage of this.

00:28:37.240 Kyle Rittenhouse, the 17 year old vigilante. Kyle Rittenhouse, the vigilante. Kyle Rittenhouse,

00:28:44.260 the armed teenage vigilante. A 17 year old vigilante, arguably a domestic terrorist,

00:28:49.900 picked up a rifle, drove to a different state to shoot people. Kyle Rittenhouse,

00:28:53.680 a guy who's deeply racist, went with weapons to a Black Lives Matter protest,

00:28:59.180 looking to get in trouble. He did. He murdered a couple of people. Rittenhouse,

00:29:02.580 the 17 year old kid, just running around, shooting and killing protesters.

00:29:09.080 You see the 17 year old who was radicalized by Trumpism, took his AR-15 to Kenosha and became

00:29:15.740 a killer. A white, Trump supporting, MAGA loving, Blue Lives Matter social media partisan,

00:29:24.820 17 years old, picks up a gun, drives from one state to another with the intent to shoot people.

00:29:30.140 A 17 year old boy who drove across state lines with an AR-15 and started shooting people up,

00:29:40.800 including a guy with a skateboard.

00:29:43.980 My God, Robert, this is not even an attempt to be fair.

00:29:50.020 And there's a lot of people that are going to face a lot of libel lawsuits,

00:29:52.920 that the only reason why they haven't been sued yet is because of the trial. And once the trial is

00:29:57.860 over and the acquittals that should come with it, I'm sure Kyle will seek some relief and remedy

00:30:03.240 from some of those people if they refuse to correct and retract. But when even the young Turks is

00:30:08.520 admitting they got it completely wrong, maybe Joe Scarborough and some others need to start

00:30:12.780 issuing some apologies, too.

00:30:14.600 Not bloody likely, not if history is any indicator. So Kyle breaks down on the stand. He's clearly

00:30:20.680 struggling. PTSD is probably spot on. He talked about how the well, there's a there was a lot

00:30:27.920 today. The shooting of Rosenbaum was the first shooting and talked. You heard a bit about there

00:30:32.200 about how he was threatened by him, how he had been specifically threatened by Rosenbaum. Want to get

00:30:37.600 the specifics here? Hold on. He says Rosenbaum threatened to kill him two times prior to the fatal

00:30:42.940 moment, said, if if I catch any of you efforts alone, I'm going to effing kill you. I'm going

00:30:50.020 to cut your effing hearts out and kill you in words. And he also testified earlier he had a bullet

00:30:56.720 bulletproof vest, but he gave it to his friend because his intention was only to help people to

00:31:02.180 provide first aid. Can I ask you what he's doing on the stand? Because the test, the trial to me has

00:31:07.960 been going well for him. The prosecution's struggling to make its case. The witnesses like

00:31:13.940 Richie McGinnis of The Daily Caller, who was an independent journalist there, testified about how

00:31:19.720 the probably most contentious, forgive me, shooting that took place was an attack on Kyle and really

00:31:27.120 gave him grounds for self-defense and on and on each each one of the shootings. The defense has managed

00:31:32.380 to get the foundation in for for a directed verdict for for self-defense finding. So why

00:31:37.880 why is he on the stand? Yeah, the two areas of disagreement I had with the defense team was I

00:31:43.840 believe that there needed to be extensive jury selection. They chose to go otherwise and pick

00:31:48.560 a jury in less than a full day. And the other was I didn't think there was any necessity to put Kyle

00:31:53.480 on the stand. I believe that the testimony would be as it has been, which proves every aspect of

00:31:58.920 self-defense without the necessity of putting him on the stand. And particularly a young kid who's never

00:32:04.280 been through this before, you're taking a lot of risks, put him on putting him on the stand,

00:32:08.260 subjecting him to cross-examination of a long-standing prosecutor. And the more innocent

00:32:13.420 someone is generally the, you know, they, they struggle sometimes on the stand. It's, you know,

00:32:17.620 Bill Clinton can lie very effectively. Your innocent kid can be telling the truth and people totally

00:32:22.620 misunderstand it. And so that's why I was not in favor of him taking that risk, but hopefully it

00:32:28.660 doesn't backfire on him because the kid's as innocent as any human being I've ever had the privilege of

00:32:33.040 defending. There's the first guy who was shot, this Rosenbaum, who was a nutcase from the sound.

00:32:38.320 I mean, this guy was a convicted child molester. He was just out of the mental facility. He was

00:32:42.960 running around looking for trouble in, in a way, Kyle Rittenhouse wasn't even arguably,

00:32:46.880 this guy was a troublemaker. And the testimony has all been that this guy threatened Kyle. He chased

00:32:51.600 Kyle. The, the evidence just came out that he was, um, that he was hiding behind some sort of

00:32:56.280 trash receptacle, like lying in wait. And then, I mean, I just don't think there's any chance

00:33:01.300 of a murder conviction, intentional homicide on that guy. Then there's the second guy,

00:33:06.640 Huber, um, who attacked Kyle with a skateboard. And, you know, that too is deeply problematic

00:33:12.600 because he was attacking him. Whatever was in Huber's mind about whether Kyle was a good guy or

00:33:17.540 back, a bad guy. I don't, I don't know that it's going to matter. And then there was this

00:33:21.780 extraordinary matter with a moment with this third witness who he shot, but didn't kill Kyle

00:33:26.580 shop. Um, gauge is his first name. And the, the defense got a Perry Mason moment with this guy

00:33:35.320 on the stand yesterday. I think it was watch what happened. When you were standing three to five feet

00:33:42.700 from him with your arms up in the air, he never fired, right? Correct. It wasn't until you pointed

00:33:50.320 your gun at him, advanced on him with your gun. Now your hands down pointed at him that he fired,

00:33:57.620 right? Correct.

00:34:01.540 And there's, there's the reaction shot of the prosecutor with his head in his hands. I mean,

00:34:06.620 that's ball game on his count. Is it not? Oh, great. I mean the, between Richie McGinnis's

00:34:11.780 testimony that Rosenbaum yelled F you and then went for the gun and Kyle didn't shoot until then

00:34:16.860 Grossowitz testimony that, uh, he was afraid Anthony Huber was going to kill him with that

00:34:21.720 skateboard. Then Grossowitz's own testimony that Kyle didn't shoot until he put, put up his gun and

00:34:27.500 pointed it right at him. You couldn't have a cleaner, neater case of self-defense. And that's

00:34:33.200 why he should be acquitted of all of those charges. And I didn't think it was necessary for him to take

00:34:37.840 the stand, but hopefully, uh, the jury understands and sees him for the innocent kid that he is.

00:34:43.040 Right now, just an update from my team on what's happening inside the courtroom. Um,

00:34:47.140 the prosecutor's trying to link Kyle, his playing of the video game call of duty to the shooting.

00:34:52.620 He's asking about Kyle's same gun as the one in the video game. And the purpose of the game is

00:34:57.260 to quote, to shoot everyone. And Kyle's saying, it's just a game. It's not real. I mean, if that,

00:35:02.780 if this is what they've got, you know, I mean, they're trying to paint him vigilante. You were going

00:35:06.580 there enjoying, you know, just the prospect of randomly shooting people, but the evidence doesn't

00:35:10.900 support that. Then, then my team's telling me the judge is currently yelling at the prosecutor

00:35:15.620 saying, quote, I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. When the prosecutor asked Kyle, why he

00:35:21.100 chose to stay silent after the incident until now, the judge is saying that is part of the justice

00:35:26.980 process. Kyle has no obligation to speak out. It's called the fifth amendment. What do you,

00:35:33.220 what's going on? What's the story with this judge?

00:35:35.000 The, the judge is a no nonsense judge been on the bench almost half a century. That's why he

00:35:40.200 intersperses stories with between Romans and the Bible. And when he was at a judicial conference 30

00:35:45.520 years ago, uh, you know, old school judge, I call him a Southern judge who happens to be up in

00:35:50.280 Wisconsin. The, and he's a no nonsense guy. And what the prosecutor just did is violate Kyle's

00:35:56.300 fifth amendment rights. So basically the, the, because you're not allowed to comment on a client

00:36:01.260 or defendant ever, ever taking the fifth at any point in time. And just because he's waived it

00:36:06.360 now and taken the stand, you still can't comment on him taking it previously. So what he just did

00:36:11.120 is guarantee that if there is a conviction, it will be set aside because of the questioning,

00:36:15.940 Hubert, just, uh, the questioning that Binger just did.

00:36:19.060 Right. Exactly. You're not allowed to do that. That's pretty, pretty steadfast. And the judge,

00:36:23.280 well, maybe the judge just saved, uh, the case or a mistrial by saying, you got to stop that.

00:36:29.420 That's not allowed. So what's the story with the jury? Uh, do I haven't read much about them?

00:36:34.260 What, what, what's the makeup and how do you think that plays in?

00:36:38.160 Well, one of the areas of disagreement between me and defense counsel was, uh, I thought as long

00:36:42.780 as a jury was picked that presumed Kyle innocent, Kyle would definitely be acquitted, but that required

00:36:48.540 because of the extensive pretrial publicity, when we pulled it, two thirds of Kenosha jurors presumed

00:36:54.200 Kyle guilty. So I thought it was very important to do a very probing jury selection

00:36:59.200 and void are the way that took place in the McMichael Arbery case, which took two weeks in

00:37:03.460 Georgia. Uh, unfortunately they took less than a day. So they kind of got, uh, basically

00:37:08.480 at the end of the day, they'd wrapped and they'd already picked their jury. There's 18 jurors.

00:37:13.000 Six of them are alternates. We don't know which ones publicly are the six alternates. Uh, it is,

00:37:17.980 it represents Kenosha. Kenosha is a very blue collar town, uh, an ethnic immigrant, hot,

00:37:23.160 hodgepodge of, you know, a substantial Italian Polish. Uh, there's a, I know a Mexican American,

00:37:28.420 uh, juror that's on there. So the, and that generally represents and reflects the community.

00:37:33.040 It's like a blue collar extension of Milwaukee and Chicago that sits right in between the two of them.

00:37:37.800 And so a random jury was usually a mistrial jury, uh, or a split verdict jury, uh, in the polling data.

00:37:45.620 Uh, so hopefully they got a better jury than that. Uh, but they'll probably need a little bit of luck

00:37:49.840 because they didn't, uh, neither side put a lot of effort into jury selection that I could see.

00:37:54.640 No, that's cardinal rule in, in, uh, in practicing law. You got to know as much as you possibly can

00:37:58.620 about your jurors and how it might be likely to go for you. We've got the soundbite. Now the judge

00:38:03.040 coming down on the prosecutor. Let's listen.

00:38:05.900 Why would you think that that made it okay for you without any advanced notice to bring this matter

00:38:11.940 before the jury? You are already, you were, I was astonished when you began,

00:38:19.840 your examination by commenting on the defendant's post arrest silence. That's basic law. It's been

00:38:26.660 basic law in this country for 40 years, 50 years. I have no idea why you would do something like

00:38:32.140 that. And it gives, um, uh, well, I'll, I'll leave it at that. Oh boy. That's not a good moment for

00:38:40.600 the prosecution, Robert. It's extreme misconduct. And this is a prosecutor that is misused and abused

00:38:46.560 judicial proceedings to lie about Kyle all the time to, in the name of trying to introduce evidence

00:38:52.100 or argue bail when it had nothing to do with either. He was trying to inflame the court of

00:38:56.880 public opinion with false news because he knew the local media could reproduce and reprint and

00:39:02.040 republish anything he put in a court file with complete legal immunity from libel, even though

00:39:06.660 it was libel. And he himself couldn't be sued because he put it in a court file. And he's been lying

00:39:11.260 about this kid all the way through. He's been violating basic rights all the way through, but

00:39:14.440 that is egregious. That's, that's a, that's worthy of disbarment and suspension. You go up and comment

00:39:20.400 on a person's fifth amendment rights in the beginning of a cross examination in a way that

00:39:24.740 every prosecutor has known as the judge said for 50 years, not to do, he should be disbarred from the

00:39:30.800 practice of law and he definitely shouldn't be a prosecutor anymore. Wow. That's a big one. So any

00:39:35.620 prediction at this point on how this case, I know how you want it to come out, but how it's likely to

00:39:40.440 come out in your view. I still think that it will be acquittals based on the evidence. Uh, and I

00:39:46.160 believe that even at, at worse at this point, what the judge left off the table, but was about to say

00:39:51.520 was that the whole verdict can now be set aside if there's any adverse verdicts because of the

00:39:55.960 prosecutor's bad conduct. And maybe the prosecutor deliberately threw the case, uh, because he

00:40:00.880 understands the risky faces, uh, from an acquittal. And he's getting hammered. I mean, the witnesses

00:40:06.480 are hammering the prosecutor suggesting that he, he pushed them to change their testimony. And the,

00:40:11.880 the, you know, the, you saw the cross examine of cross examination by the defense of one of the

00:40:16.540 prosecution star witnesses gauge the guy who got shot and survived has not going well for the

00:40:20.940 prosecution. And today appears to have been the worst yet. Robert, what a pleasure. Thank you so

00:40:25.720 much for being here. We really appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Coming up, a Megan Kelly show,

00:40:30.120 all-star pairing. We're really excited. We get such a list guests today. I'm excited. Coleman Hughes

00:40:34.400 and Cheryl Ackeson, two of my favorite guests from our first 200 shows. Cause this everybody

00:40:40.360 is our 200th show. So it's sort of a special day for us too. Great day to have such an A

00:40:46.120 list lineup of guests for you. I'm joined now by Cheryl Ackeson, investigative reporter and host of

00:40:57.940 full measure with Cheryl Ackeson and Coleman Hughes, author and host of conversations with Coleman

00:41:03.900 I'm so excited to have you both here. They said, who do you want for your 200th episode? And I said,

00:41:08.760 I know, I know who I want. Just two different perspectives, two super smart, thoughtful people.

00:41:14.200 And so thank you for being here on our special day. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us.

00:41:18.360 All right. Let's kick it off with Kyle Rittenhouse cause it's breaking news. Um, he, he took the stand.

00:41:22.740 We've played some of the sound here. He is talking about, again, he, in total, he shot three people,

00:41:27.420 two of whom died. Joseph Rosenbaum was the first. Anthony Huber was the second. Uh, and the third

00:41:33.560 was this, um, Gage Grossbaum. I forgive me. That last name's a toughie. Uh, Grossgrutz. Okay. Um,

00:41:41.120 Gage, I guess we'll just go with, and Gage is the one who admitted on the stand that he was not shot

00:41:45.480 by Kyle until he, Gage had, had fired, had pointed his own weapon at Kyle, which was a big moment for

00:41:52.740 the defense. Here's Kyle again, surprisingly on the stand today at age 18, talking about the first

00:41:59.320 shooting, Joseph Rosenbaum, the man who was mentally disturbed, um, and what happened with

00:42:05.260 him. Listen, person who threatened to kill you. We now know it was Mr. Rosenbaum, correct? Yes.

00:42:10.880 Before August 25th of 2020, had you ever seen him before? I did not. Had you ever done anything

00:42:18.440 to upset him? No. Now, you said he threatened to kill you twice. Yes. Describe the first time.

00:42:28.040 The first time was me and Ryan Bolch were a little bit north, towards the north corner of

00:42:39.380 59th and Sheridan, and Mr. Rosenbaum was walking with a steel chain, and he had a blue mask around

00:42:48.420 his face, and, um, he was just mad about something. Me and, me and Mr. Bolch were asking people

00:42:56.200 if they needed medical help, and then he screamed, if, sorry for my language, he screamed, if I

00:43:01.460 catch any of you fuckers alone, I'm going to fucking kill you. And that was directed at

00:43:06.980 you and Mr. Bolch? It, it, it was directed at both of us, what I believe. And there was

00:43:12.240 a second occasion where he threatened you? Yes. Um, the second time was outside of the

00:43:18.780 car source. Um, and I, I don't think, I don't know if it was directed towards me, but I heard

00:43:24.540 it. He said to, I believe it was Joanne Fiedler, Dustin, Colette, and, uh, another guy. He's,

00:43:34.240 he was screaming. He said, I'm going to cut your fucking hearts out and kill, I'm not going to

00:43:45.120 repeat the second word, but kill you and words. Hmm. Guys, I know that you're not lawyers, but,

00:43:51.760 and we just had the lawyer on, but I will say the way the press has covered this is not being

00:43:56.320 reflected at all by, by the testimony we've heard, even when the prosecution was presenting its case,

00:44:01.460 crazed vigilante, domestic terrorist murderer, he's charged with intentional homicide. Um,

00:44:07.140 and I just wonder whether any of that will change now after this testimony, Cheryl, as a journalist,

00:44:11.320 I'll, I'll start with you. You know, we have such a long littered list of the media covering

00:44:16.420 something in a one-sided, terribly one-sided fashion, no excuse for it. If you're following

00:44:21.020 basic journalism rules, and this is yet another one and yet another reason why you cannot at the

00:44:26.920 front end of any incident claim to know as a journalist, nor should you claim to know or judge

00:44:32.660 what happened at an event, even when you have video of something so often it proves wrong.

00:44:37.660 The hands up, don't shoot narrative that was proven completely false by the Obama justice department

00:44:42.840 said that that was false. A lot of people still think that that's true, that he was holding his hands

00:44:48.020 up when he was shot. Um, you want to go back to the FBI, the Atlanta bombing, the FBI blamed poor

00:44:54.340 Richard Jewell for the bombing only to later admit that he had actually tried to come to the rescue

00:45:00.100 in advance when he saw a suspicious package. This is just yet another case. I noticed the same thing

00:45:05.620 you did on the front end. There was a rush to judgment by many in the media, very unjournalistic

00:45:10.360 coverage. And I'll be speaking to another journalism college next week. And these are the stories I try to

00:45:16.400 tell them to get them to suspend the notion that they have to make a decision or tell the public what to

00:45:21.960 think on the front end of an episode, just based on someone's usually ideological perspective.

00:45:28.400 The thing here, Coleman is, I mean, Black Lives Matter, um, Jacob Blake, that that's the man who

00:45:34.440 was shot by police that led to the rioting in Kenosha. Um, so while Kyle is white and the three

00:45:40.380 people he shot were white, there is races in the background here because it happened at a BLM

00:45:46.860 March and it was in the wake of the shooting of Jacob Blake. And so that affects how the media

00:45:52.480 covers it. Totally. And, and part of the reason why people so quickly pounced on this story is because

00:46:01.720 on a superficial level, it seemed to confirm the Black Lives Matter narrative, which is, you know,

00:46:09.200 on the, on the, on the same day that a black guy gets shot in the back, this white guy out here

00:46:14.420 holding an AR-15 is, uh, you know, shoots three people, tries to turn himself into, into the

00:46:21.340 police and the police won't even arrest him when he comes, you know, asking to be arrested. So it

00:46:26.920 seemed like on its face, if those are all the facts you knew about the case, you'd say, look,

00:46:32.540 just another example of the double standard that racist American police hold, uh, blacks and whites.

00:46:39.840 Yeah. Right. Too, too good to be true. And, and, and then the evidence came, we're just going to

00:46:45.760 squeeze in a quick commercial break. I'd like to pay the bills here on Sirius XM Triumph channel 111

00:46:49.400 and pick it right back up right there in 60 seconds. Don't go away.

00:46:58.740 I want to tell you the latest is the prosecutor has moved on to questioning Kyle Rittenhouse about

00:47:04.480 the hollow point ammo he used. Kyle's saying he doesn't know much about ammo. And now the judge

00:47:09.580 has stopped the prosecutor again, calling for a lunch break. So they are paused. I think we have

00:47:15.260 the soundbite of him going over the video games, which is such a weird angle. Let's just listen to

00:47:21.080 this. The types of weapons that are used in first person shooter video games, correct?

00:47:28.620 I don't really play first person shooter video games. I have, but I believe there's a variety of guns,

00:47:34.180 including shotguns, pistols. There's guns in video games that resemble all guns.

00:47:39.800 Isn't it true when you would hang out with Dominic Black, you'd play Call of Duty and other first

00:47:45.920 person shooter video games? Sometimes. And those are games in which you use weapons like AR-15s to

00:47:52.700 pretty much shoot anybody who comes at you, correct? It's a video game where two players are

00:48:00.520 playing together. I don't really understand the meaning of your question, to be honest.

00:48:07.980 Isn't one of the things people do in these video games, try and kill everyone else with your guns?

00:48:13.000 Yeah, it's a video game. It's just a video game. It's not real life.

00:48:23.460 Coleman, I'm looking at you as we run the soundbite doing this with your hands on your face,

00:48:28.360 which is exactly how I feel. What is he? What? What? What?

00:48:31.200 Well, he knows that there is this very shallow talking point that's been going around in the

00:48:36.540 culture that anyone who plays first person shooter games like Call of Duty has no way of separating the

00:48:44.760 game from real life and is just being coached by video games to become a mass murderer.

00:48:49.420 And it's so far removed from the reality of what it is to play a video game. But obviously,

00:48:54.380 the prosecution knows that many people just have this idea in their head. So if they can subliminally

00:49:00.700 try to paint him as someone who's been desensitized and made into a psychopath by playing Halo and Call

00:49:08.320 of Duty, then they can just lessen the sympathy for him, which is a very, very dirty tactic.

00:49:15.940 It reminds me of the clip in Working Girl, where Joan Cusack goes over to Melanie Griffith's

00:49:23.380 character who's pretending to be an executive. And she says, sometimes late at night, I dance

00:49:28.160 around in my underwear. Doesn't make me Madonna. Never will. Like a lot of us do fun things at home,

00:49:34.680 like video games and watch movies and weird things that we do to entertain ourselves. And it doesn't

00:49:39.360 have any reflection on what we're then going to believe about ourselves or do in real life.

00:49:44.020 And I realized Kyle Rittenhouse showed up at that protest. But the fact that he played Call of

00:49:47.900 Duty, I mean, there are a lot of guys who play Call of Duty who don't then want to actually

00:49:52.100 shoot real human beings. Cheryl, I don't know. I think that's this guy's been watching to too much

00:49:57.300 far left media because this is sort of how the left talks about guns. Like if you see too much of

00:50:03.180 them or you're around them, you're going to inappropriately use one. Well, I think it's fair

00:50:09.080 to say that almost nobody who plays those type of video games becomes a mass shooter or mass killer,

00:50:15.960 particularly because of the games. But just statistically, almost nobody who plays those games

00:50:21.220 goes out and shoots people. So, you know, he's he seems to be the prosecutor. He's looking for any

00:50:27.460 avenue. Like Coleman said, that may resonate with one juror or two jurors who think maybe they think

00:50:34.820 that about video games. Maybe that'll mean something to them and influence how they feel and what the

00:50:39.000 kind of person they think Kyle is. This is a case of government overreach. I realize I don't think

00:50:45.420 Kyle Rittenhouse should have been there that day. He shouldn't have put himself in the middle

00:50:48.720 of a very dangerous situation. He had no business as a 17 year old kid injecting himself. It was up

00:50:54.200 to law enforcement, whether they were prepared to do it or not. And it he made a lot of bad decisions.

00:50:59.380 And so did those around him. But this is not this is not a murder. This is this guy should be acquitted

00:51:04.220 in my legal view. May I say something that when you have a situation and this is what I've seen the

00:51:11.480 last couple of years where the public at large loses their confidence in the idea that their law

00:51:16.820 enforcement and their leaders are going to uphold the law and do the right thing. That's the sort of

00:51:22.200 chaos I think that comes of it. It creates a situation in which people, some of them say,

00:51:27.240 well, nobody else is going to do the right thing or what I think is the right thing. Therefore,

00:51:30.920 I have to step in. That creates an eminently more dangerous situation. But I blame our leaders and

00:51:37.240 our public officials for getting us to that place in the first place.

00:51:41.160 I mean, but you could make the argument the other way, too, right? Like if how many times are the

00:51:45.420 cops going to break the rules or, you know, violate the law and and, you know, take a man's

00:51:52.000 life unjustifiably. And then we ask people in the black community to take it and not to riot.

00:51:58.060 You know, I mean, like lawlessness is lawlessness. And, you know, allowing more lawlessness because

00:52:04.760 of the first lawlessness is not the solution. As a lawyer, I've always said what binds us together

00:52:09.480 really is the rule of law. Like what keeps us as a civil society other than the rule of law,

00:52:15.260 this sort of agreement we have that we're going to follow it. And I realize that there are all

00:52:19.340 sorts of breakdowns in the system left, right and so on. But the answer is not to take the law into

00:52:23.820 your own hands. You take them to court, as they used to say on people's court. But listen, when it

00:52:28.840 comes to government overreach, I want to ask you both about this crazy case today, this week involving

00:52:35.800 James O'Keefe, right? The guy behind Project Veritas. He says he's an investigative journalist

00:52:42.500 and he's done a lot of investigative journalism that's been extraordinary, doesn't always get it 100%

00:52:46.740 right, but he gets it right a lot of the time. The left hates him. The media hates him. And his

00:52:52.080 targets are always, well, for the most part, left leaning CNN and others. But nuts what happened to

00:52:58.240 him this week. His organization had two reporters see their homes raided by the FBI. And then James

00:53:07.960 O'Keefe's home was raided by the FBI. What did they do? Did they steal government files? Did they

00:53:12.860 somehow get CIA material? They weren't. They allegedly had Ashley Biden's diary, which is OK.

00:53:21.820 It was apparently she lost it or someone took it from her before he even became president.

00:53:26.280 The question is what the FBI is doing investigating this at all. And here is James O'Keefe explaining

00:53:33.200 what the heck happened. Listen. Late last year, we were approached by tipsters claiming that a copy

00:53:40.260 of Ashley Biden's diary, we had never met or heard of the tipsters. The tipsters indicated the diary

00:53:45.560 had been abandoned in a room in which Ms. Biden stayed at the time and in which the tipsters stayed

00:53:50.300 in temporarily after Ms. Biden departed the room. The tipsters indicated that the diary included

00:53:56.640 explosive allegations against then candidate Joe Biden. We took steps to corroborate the authenticity

00:54:02.220 of the diary. At the end of the day, we made the ethical decision that because in part we could

00:54:07.760 not determine if the diary was real, if the diary in fact belonged to Ashley Biden, or if the contents

00:54:13.700 of the diary occurred, we could not publish the diary in any part thereof. We attempted to return

00:54:20.000 the diary to an attorney representing Ms. Biden, but that attorney refused to authenticate it.

00:54:25.440 Project Veritas gave the diary to law enforcement to ensure it could be returned to its rightful owner.

00:54:30.240 We never published it. Now, Ms. Biden's father's Department of Justice, specifically the United

00:54:35.440 States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, appears to be investigating the

00:54:40.840 situation, claiming the diary was stolen. We don't know if it was, but it begs the question,

00:54:47.380 in what world is the alleged theft of a diary investigated by the president's FBI

00:54:53.380 and his Department of Justice, a diary? This federal investigation smacks of politics.

00:55:02.220 Cheryl, he's not the only one who's been the subject of government overreach under an administration

00:55:10.060 that has Joe Biden at the top.

00:55:12.780 Well, just an example of picking and choosing, which again, when the public starts to see they

00:55:17.200 cannot trust or they don't think they can trust their public officials and law enforcement officials

00:55:22.100 to do the right thing, or at least apply justice even handedly, it creates this chaotic situation.

00:55:27.700 And yes, I still have my lawsuit going over the government's intrusion of my computers.

00:55:32.720 It's when I was at CBS News. And the Department of Justice continues to defend the guilty agents.

00:55:38.020 They just, about a week ago, according to court documents, authorized the hiring of private

00:55:43.120 counsel. I would assume that's a taxpayer expense to defend one of the guilty agents,

00:55:47.600 a former Secret Service agent who's been in prison for other corruption, not even related to the

00:55:53.500 spying on me and other Americans, but other corruption that he was convicted of. But he's

00:55:57.680 being defended with your tax dollars. And I asked myself, why is the FBI not raiding the homes

00:56:02.940 of the agents who took the word of unauthorized sources and started a political investigation

00:56:10.500 against the president of the United States or a major candidate? Why aren't their homes being raided?

00:56:15.040 Why aren't the homes of the FBI agents who falsified wiretap documents? You know, when there was an

00:56:20.720 examination to see if there were other lapses in wiretaps, in addition to what we know happened

00:56:26.600 with one of them being doctored by an FBI lawyer, it was found that every wiretap application the FBI

00:56:33.560 made had what they called deficiencies. Why aren't the homes of those agents being raided? Why aren't the

00:56:38.580 people who are improperly wiretapped being told and being made whole and whatever was gathered on them

00:56:44.700 destroyed? So again, it's this picking and choosing. One thing, Megan, I note how if as he describes it

00:56:51.940 as accurate, how careful James O'Keefe was in trying to corroborate that information that he said that

00:56:58.600 came to him and why he decided not to publish it. Look at that contrasted to the media's behavior when

00:57:04.820 it came to this uncorroborated information that they peddled for more than two years they were so wrong

00:57:10.320 about. And yet total lack of care on Russiagate. Yeah. The thing is, the the media is not going to

00:57:17.700 care, Coleman, because they don't like James O'Keefe and he does target mostly people on the left.

00:57:24.480 But if this had been Ivanka Trump's diary and Donald Trump sick to the FBI on a reporter who found himself

00:57:34.620 the recipient of it, who had already called law enforcement to say, we've got it, do you want it?

00:57:39.420 The media be covering this very differently. Yes. James O'Keefe, you know, his content over the

00:57:46.020 past year has really made him an enemy of the left. And, you know, sometimes that's just because he's

00:57:51.720 actually getting really embarrassing videos that are just genuinely interesting. And other times it's

00:57:58.160 because he's, you know, slanting and manipulating the truth in ways to embarrass people. But I mean,

00:58:05.620 there's been a huge double standard with the treatment of Biden's family and Trump's family.

00:58:10.440 I remember, you know, obviously the New York Post story about Hunter Biden, which got censored from

00:58:16.440 Twitter because, you know, there was allegedly there was nothing there worth really looking at.

00:58:22.880 Just if you change the name Hunter Biden for Don Jr., you have to imagine how much the media would

00:58:28.620 have been all over a story where Don Jr. was in Eastern Europe, potentially doing cocaine and,

00:58:35.680 you know, all kinds of stuff. So, yeah, this is just another example of the double standard

00:58:40.760 that's been used to treat the Biden family and the Trump family.

00:58:45.340 And honestly, just executive overreach. And we were told that Trump was this terrible

00:58:49.040 authoritarian who wanted to take control of all aspects of our lives and beware, you know,

00:58:53.540 beware the evil big orange man. And what we've seen so far with Joe Biden, this the moderate,

00:58:58.900 the guy who was going to be sort of, you know, just not Donald Trump, just be not Donald Trump

00:59:02.240 and it'll be a win is a lot of executive overreach. The FBI has no business doing this.

00:59:07.420 This is she was she was not the daughter of a president when she lost her diary or left it behind

00:59:13.820 and somebody took it. Whatever. I mean, it's a nightmare. It's why most of us either don't write

00:59:17.760 in a diary as public figures or would never take it out of our little bedrooms when we leave.

00:59:24.400 But in any event, the FBI has no business being involved in this case. And Joe Biden, Cheryl,

00:59:28.920 we've seen now, of course, he he knew that the the landlord, the rent debate, the landlord eviction

00:59:37.000 thing was extra legal. But he handed down that order anyway, stopping the evictions, even though

00:59:43.020 he knew it was going to get overruled just to just because that's the policy he wanted.

00:59:46.140 He knew it wasn't lawful. And then just this week, he lost in the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals on his

00:59:52.200 covid mandate, the OSHA rule and so on. Finally, they put it in writing. It got challenged in the

00:59:56.860 Fifth Circuit, which is the Court of Appeals for Louisiana, Mississippi and a couple of other small

01:00:02.360 southern states. And he lost and he came out and said businesses should move forward with the

01:00:07.020 requirements despite the court ordered pause. That's what the White House spokesperson said.

01:00:10.860 So forget that court ruling. They paused it. They said it's not constitutional and we have to hold

01:00:15.500 it until the courts can further adjudicate. And he's basically flouting that, too.

01:00:19.500 Well, can you imagine if that were President Trump and there had been a lower court decision or an

01:00:23.780 appellate court decision that was probably working its way somewhere else? And if he had just declared,

01:00:29.100 don't listen to the courts, you know, that would have been just roundly discussed and criticized

01:00:34.820 and dissected. And yet when President Biden does it, it's just almost as if, well, I don't know from

01:00:41.200 a legal standpoint, Megan, you know more than I do, if he has the right to do that. I was asked

01:00:46.320 in the past couple of years when there is a court that makes a decision like that, does the executive

01:00:52.020 branch have to go along or are they not co-equal and can the executive branch continue to resist something?

01:00:58.340 No, they are. No, they are not. The court has the ultimate say on what the law is,

01:01:05.620 Marbury versus Madison. And they have said the law does not allow this mandate and it's been

01:01:10.300 temporarily stayed. So it cannot be enforced until this goes up to the Supreme Court or the Fifth

01:01:15.160 Circuit lifts its stay. And he knows that he knows that very well. Well, I believe the whole game has

01:01:21.660 been since the start. I believe President Biden announced this in September and it was a long time

01:01:27.240 before that temporary rule came out recently. And I think they know that even if this gets overturned

01:01:34.100 ultimately in court, the game is that many people in anticipation of this have already gone ahead and

01:01:40.720 gotten their vaccine. So a lot of money has been made. A lot of coverage has been had because of the

01:01:46.620 anticipation that this would happen, whether or not it's ultimately challenged and is a loser doesn't

01:01:51.860 matter in that aspect. So the covid overreach continues day by day. And and thankfully now

01:02:00.220 we're starting to see a few more articles, even in the left leaning press, questioning the never ending

01:02:05.320 mask mandates in particular for our children. And now the buzz about possible vaccine mandates for

01:02:11.720 kids as young as five. We're seeing the city of San Francisco saying that you can't your kid cannot

01:02:18.640 they cannot let me. I want to get my facts straight that they there. I got it in front of me.

01:02:24.380 They announced last week the city will require children in that age group five to 11 to show proof

01:02:27.840 of vaccination to enter restaurants, sporting events, swimming pools and more. Mayor Bill de Blasio

01:02:32.360 in New York said, yep, I'm looking at the vaccine mandate for your five year old, too. Seems like a good

01:02:36.260 idea. New York School of American Ballet informed parents via email on November 4th. All students and

01:02:42.000 they enroll children as young as six must receive the covid vaccine by January. But

01:02:48.040 this is an experimental vaccine still for children, that this does not have FDA approval,

01:02:54.700 unlike the MMR vaccine and all the other things that we do have to get our kids to send them to

01:02:58.360 school, which I happily did. And I wonder whether this is finally sort of the the overreach that's

01:03:05.580 going to that's going to stop the covid madness, Coleman. I mean, I know you've been covering this

01:03:09.820 a lot on your show with various doctors and experts about covid and the ethics behind where we're

01:03:15.880 going with this. What do you think? Yeah, well, I think the question of vaccination for adults and

01:03:21.320 vaccination for children is very different. And I don't think we can just automatically apply our

01:03:30.540 policy about whether it makes sense to get vaccinated as an adult to children. And certainly the

01:03:38.600 the masking, you know, there just has to be a line here somewhere. And we can all draw that line in

01:03:45.500 different places. But ultimately, we have to have a science based conversation about what the actual

01:03:52.100 relative risks are for different populations, right? Not every population is going to be need to be

01:03:57.360 treated like 60 year olds, you know, 60 plus with with an autoimmune. And so at some point, that line,

01:04:06.980 the risk becomes so low that we we really have to just allow people to live their lives. The question

01:04:14.440 is, is that 12 year olds? Is that, you know, who is that exactly? So but there are some people that

01:04:21.340 are not even willing to have that conversation. It's just going to be vaccination until the end of

01:04:28.120 time, masks, masks until the end of time, because it's become a symbol of people's political

01:04:32.900 affiliation at this point. And now there's mission creep. If I go into the grocery store and I say to

01:04:38.100 Doug, can you just wait outside here with the car for two seconds? I'm just going to get a loaf of

01:04:41.320 bread and some milk and, you know, whatever, some eggs. And then I'm in there and, you know,

01:04:44.940 it's like exciting. And you see all like the food that you could get. You could be this great mom

01:04:49.260 who provides the best snacks and so on. And it takes too long. And I get the text from him

01:04:53.160 that reads mission creep. I've gone, I've gone off mission and he knows it. That's what's

01:05:00.240 happening now. Rochelle Walensky is no longer focused on just fighting COVID. She just wants

01:05:05.360 the mask for everything. There's just more and more masks. Here she is this week with what I

01:05:10.740 believe is a call for forever masking. Do we have a soundbite? Listen.

01:05:19.260 The evidence is clear. Masks can help prevent the spread of COVID-19 by reducing your chance

01:05:26.320 of infection by more than 80%. Whether it's an infection from the flu, from the coronavirus,

01:05:32.420 or even just the common cold. In combination with other steps like getting your vaccination,

01:05:38.780 hand washing, and keeping physical distance, wearing your mask is an important step you can

01:05:44.120 take to keep us all healthy. Get vaccine facts. We can do this.

01:05:52.020 It's never going to end. The common cold. What business is it of hers if I get the common cold?

01:05:59.380 She never interfered in my common cold before, and I don't want her to interfere now. Never mind flu.

01:06:05.760 We've been managing to live on this earth for a long time before Rochelle decided we needed to be

01:06:10.480 forever masked. And by the way, even like the mask now, the CDC is refusing to offer any guidance

01:06:18.000 on when the masks can come off. They were refusing. They were specifically asked and said,

01:06:22.180 no, we're not going to do that. It's never going to stop without civil disobedience at this point,

01:06:27.060 Cheryl. Well, there's so much to say. I'll just make a couple of points. Rochelle Walensky is the

01:06:32.600 same person who falsely claimed that people who have been fully vaccinated cannot spread COVID. CDC

01:06:38.360 ultimately had to retract that. Her agency is the agency that got caught by Congressman Thomas

01:06:43.580 Massey, admittedly by their own admission in a phone recording, falsely telling doctors in the

01:06:49.060 public that the studies from Pfizer and Moderna showed if you have natural immunity from COVID

01:06:53.940 infection, you should still get the shot because it's effective. The studies didn't show that. And

01:06:58.780 they kept, even after they admitted that was false, they kept telling doctors that and telling the

01:07:03.240 public that. So there's a whole lack of confidence in the range of advice we're getting from CDC.

01:07:07.660 It is so slanted and one-sided to the exclusion of the discussion of natural immunity. CDC has been

01:07:14.140 hiding its estimate of the naturally immune, those who've had COVID infection since May 29th,

01:07:20.040 when it was at 120 million plus. Since Delta, it's obviously much higher. It's probably the vast

01:07:26.420 majority of Americans. And yet, as they push the vaccines harder, as knowing the vaccines are wearing

01:07:32.420 off fat like anybody hoped, they're still at the same time refusing to address natural immunity,

01:07:39.260 lumping all of the unvaccinated people in together to make the stats look as bad as possible,

01:07:44.240 without acknowledging that the safest, the vastly by far safest people, according to hard data and

01:07:50.740 studies, including a lot from Israel, are the unvaccinated who have natural immunity from a COVID

01:07:56.560 infection. That's what the study has said. Can I just ask you quickly, you've been reporting on the

01:08:02.500 overstatement of the death numbers, and actually had some fascinating stats out of, was it Arizona,

01:08:07.300 the coroner out there? This was, oh gosh, where was I? I was in Colorado. So in a small town in Colorado,

01:08:12.380 but the story branched out and showed that in California and in other places, they've acknowledged

01:08:17.320 that their death stats are overstated by, as in Colorado, 50%, if you count only the deaths that they

01:08:25.040 really think are caused by COVID versus the deaths of people who happen to have COVID, like the murder

01:08:30.940 suicide that this coroner said the state counted in her county, a murder suicide was counted as COVID

01:08:37.580 deaths. And they would not take that off when she objected, because they said, well, all the states are

01:08:41.540 doing it. There are car accidents, there are heart deaths, there are alcohol overdoses, all counted

01:08:47.400 as COVID deaths. And when you call those out, to Colorado's credit, they had so many coroners complain,

01:08:52.980 at least you can see a subset of those on the website, the death count goes down about 50%.

01:08:59.260 This is why you got to listen to Cheryl's podcast too, because, and her show, because she goes into

01:09:05.640 great detail about how this coroner sees an update for her county saying that there were these COVID

01:09:13.080 deaths. And she's like, no, there weren't, there weren't COVID deaths. Why does it say that? She looks

01:09:16.860 into it. She sees that a murder suicide has been categorized as death from COVID. And Cheryl went back and

01:09:22.860 take a look at the death certificate to see like, did the coroner put something on there? You know,

01:09:26.360 suggesting could be no, no, she didn't. And the coroner's like, this is bullshit. It was a bullet.

01:09:31.760 It was not COVID. And yet, these are the numbers that are used to keep those masks on us interminably

01:09:39.280 and mandate these vaccines for five-year-olds and so on. It's infuriating. Listen, we have much more

01:09:44.060 with Cheryl and Coleman. So Cheryl, you did an extraordinary piece of reporting, because right

01:09:55.160 now they're saying they've abandoned the search for herd immunity when it comes to COVID, that it's no

01:09:59.080 longer possible. And really, we're just gonna have to live with this as an endemic and so on.

01:10:02.880 Um, you took a hard look at the Amish, good old Amish, and they went a totally different route

01:10:12.340 than the rest of us when it comes to fighting this. Just set it up a little, because I'm going

01:10:16.520 to run a clip. Well, a couple of months ago, I had read in Associated Press and other publications

01:10:23.060 that the Amish were the first to have achieved herd immunity, the Amish population and Lancaster, PA,

01:10:29.080 because they don't do masking, isolation, vaccines, hospitals, nothing. And therefore,

01:10:35.720 they had immunity. And by the way, when Delta came through recently, they claim they don't know

01:10:40.460 the guy, my source, who's in contact with pretty much most of the people there, claims he doesn't

01:10:45.840 know anybody who died of Delta or who even got sick in recent months. So they claim a very strong

01:10:52.600 natural immunity reaction. I point out in my story, this is impossible to prove because they don't

01:10:58.180 take tests for it. This is all just what they think. But there is no spike in their coroner

01:11:03.740 records. There is nothing to disprove what they're saying, much as many people want to try to

01:11:08.420 rain on this story. And by the way, Megan, this has been censored as out of context, all of the

01:11:14.860 false things by big tech. But our YouTube channel for Full Measure, where this is posted, we don't

01:11:19.660 publicize that channel because we try to drive traffic to the Full Measure website. It's got 1.3

01:11:25.440 million views now because people are finding this information when they know other people are

01:11:29.620 blocking it from them.

01:11:31.000 It was fast. I mean, just the shorter version of the report is is has got millions of views. You

01:11:35.280 got to check it out and preferably not on YouTube. Go to Cheryl's website. But let's just watch a little

01:11:39.980 bit of her report on the Amish.

01:11:43.140 We made more money in the last year than we ever did. It was our best year ever.

01:11:49.380 Did the Amish really find a magic formula? They say yes, and they don't care who doubts it.

01:11:55.440 Yeah. All the Amish know we got herd immunity. Of course we got herd immunity. When the whole

01:12:01.720 church gets coronavirus, we know we got coronavirus. Yes, we think we're smarter than everybody. I

01:12:08.060 mean, shouldn't be bragging, but we think we did the right thing.

01:12:12.020 He talked about, Cheryl, how they went to church and similar to the way we used to do at the Catholic

01:12:17.020 Mass, they all drink out of the same chalice. And he's like, we all got it. You know, we all got it.

01:12:22.900 And that's the way we chose to deal with it. We didn't shut one thing down. He said the remedies

01:12:27.420 that were being pushed by the government went against everything we stood for and we stand for

01:12:32.160 hard work, being with family, taking care of the elderly, going to worship services. And you can see

01:12:37.480 why they were like, oh, no. And was it the better course of action scientifically? And many, many

01:12:42.560 people, including scientists, not the public health officials you normally hear from, but many

01:12:47.240 independent scientists say yes. Not that anybody wants someone to get sick with COVID. Not that

01:12:52.560 I'm advocating or anybody's advocating that you go try to catch it, but it's, it's taking its natural

01:12:58.200 course anyway, even with the vaccines, many people are getting it. And the fact is the unrecognized

01:13:03.560 fact when it comes to public health officials, it leaves people with a great deal of immunity,

01:13:08.340 according to a growing body and consensus of scientific research. But yes, in May of 2020,

01:13:14.440 they had a very important church, holy ceremony or holiday that they decided to go ahead and go to

01:13:22.560 church. And as he, as you said, they all drink out of the same cup. Many of them got sick and they

01:13:28.600 assumed and believe it was COVID based on the symptoms. And they let this run its course.

01:13:33.500 People stayed at home instead of going to the hospital. They took visitors because they said not

01:13:37.940 taking visitors is worse than dying. Not working is worse than dying to them. And then they said,

01:13:43.880 by and large, it was mostly done with in their community by about the fall time period without

01:13:49.340 them ever having taken any extraordinary measures. I'm ready to become Amish. Who's with me?

01:13:58.160 It sounds pretty good. Plus, it's just a simpler life. You have to work very hard, however.

01:14:03.240 Meantime today, Coleman, we saw Aaron Rodgers in the news, of course, you know,

01:14:06.540 he's getting hit for suggesting he had immunity, but not actually having been vaccinated. And now

01:14:11.340 today, the ire of the media has turned on actor Matthew McConaughey, who's considering a run for

01:14:18.620 Texas governor. And therefore, we are we've started to listen to his policy prescriptions.

01:14:24.360 This is also kind of odd. But, you know, if Trump can do it, why can't Matthew McConaughey do it?

01:14:29.920 And here's what he said that has now had even our current surgeon general respond to it. Listen.

01:14:36.540 He just said we can vaccinate kids. Are we going to do we need to trust? I want to trust

01:14:44.940 in the science. I think that there's any kind of scam or conspiracy theory. Hell no, I don't.

01:14:50.620 No, I don't think there's any kind of we all got to get off that narrative. There's not a

01:14:54.520 conspiracy theory on the on the on the vaccines. These are scientists trying to do the right thing.

01:14:59.340 And then people say, yeah, the big farmers making the money they can. Fine. That's that's that's as

01:15:04.260 well, if that's true. OK. It's scary right now. I'm not vaccinated. Mine, I'll tell you that you're

01:15:12.580 not. I'm not vaccinating mine. I want to get more. I've been vaccinated. My wife has been vaccinated.

01:15:18.080 We have a high risk person in our household. My mother is 90 and she's immune compromised.

01:15:23.040 So why why don't you want your kids to be vaccinated?

01:15:30.040 We run we go slow on vaccinations anyway, even before COVID. Now, mind you, I've chosen we've

01:15:36.540 quarantined harder than any of our friends have and still are two years later. I don't want to.

01:15:45.040 Maybe I'm trying to just keep it from my mom. OK, so we've been doing just a heavy amount of testing

01:15:51.100 when and everywhere we can. We even take the ones that take the ones with us out of the box where we

01:15:55.360 can do them in our house everywhere we can with anybody we come in contact with.

01:16:01.060 Try to do things outdoors. I'm in a position, though.

01:16:05.800 Where I can do that, and I understand that not everyone can do that.

01:16:08.900 All right.

01:16:11.460 I don't I can't I couldn't mandate having to vaccinate.

01:16:16.840 The younger kids.

01:16:17.740 You can't mandate having to vaccinate. The funny thing is for the listening audience in the middle

01:16:22.500 of that where he's like, why wouldn't you vaccinate your kids? McConaughey pauses.

01:16:26.980 He puts on his sunglasses in the middle of the interview.

01:16:30.660 What do you guys has got to try that before this show is over and rubs his hair, which is slicked

01:16:35.180 back. It's like it's funny watching these actors, right? Like you never know. Is this act

01:16:40.120 is this acting or is this the real deal?

01:16:42.200 Well, anyway, the surgeon general comes out, Coleman, and says vaccinating your children

01:16:46.860 is safe. I go by my friends, Marty McCary and Nicole Safer, both of whom have been on

01:16:53.760 the show. They had a piece in The Wall Street Journal saying if you're agonizing about whether

01:16:58.040 to vaccinate your child, your young child, be reassured. The risk is extremely low either

01:17:03.560 way. If you haven't vaccinated, if you don't have vaccinated. But man, we react to people

01:17:07.760 like that as though they're the devil incarnate.

01:17:12.600 Yeah, well, I think I think that is that is right at the end of the day. It's probably

01:17:16.580 going to turn out that for kids, the choice is not that important. And so, you know, if

01:17:23.300 I had kids, I'd probably err on the safe side. I trust the vaccines. I think they're safe and

01:17:28.000 effective. On the other hand, I'm not sure it's worth expending much energy trying to get

01:17:36.220 other people to vaccinate their kids. I think we are getting to the point where the we're

01:17:43.240 focusing on lower and lower and lower risk parts of the population, and it risks very

01:17:49.600 quickly becoming ridiculous. And it already has in many cases. You know, this is it's just

01:17:54.900 so hard for people to walk the line between a rational, safe policy to protect lives and

01:18:00.840 just idiocy. You know, it's the difference between masking indoors during 2020 and masking

01:18:08.220 outdoors in 2021. Like these are one makes perfect sense. And one is just you being an idiot,

01:18:15.460 basically. And people have have a lot of trouble distinguishing a from be there.

01:18:21.860 It's time to let let go. Just let it go. Now, one thing that nobody's letting go of is the

01:18:27.700 election results from a week ago, a week and one day. The Republicans are still dancing in the

01:18:32.220 streets thinking that they have a some sort of a mandate or they have a great harbinger of things

01:18:36.220 to come as we head into 2022. And the Democrats, many of whom are to me, sound like they're still in

01:18:42.560 denial about why they did so poorly at the polls on Tuesday and whether the parents who went to the

01:18:47.520 polls and said education is most important to me are just a bunch of white supremacists or

01:18:51.700 actually caring parents who have legit concerns. And it seems like the Dem Party is sort of

01:18:56.500 divided between the more moderates and the more progressives on a lot of this front.

01:19:00.700 The media, however, not divided. The media has decided that what this was about was white

01:19:07.620 supremacy, white rage. And we put together a little soundbite. In fact, we stole this. I'm going to admit

01:19:13.480 from my friends over at Fox on talking about how what really happened on Tuesday was a bunch of dog

01:19:20.420 whistles. Listen. And when he pushes talking points that are meant to flirt with and stoke white

01:19:27.560 backlash, he does so in a coded way with dog whistles about education. The racial animus

01:19:32.980 that is teeming with the dog whistle messaging. Racial language and dog whistles, quite frankly.

01:19:42.380 Some of it was dog whistle. Yeah. Right. Some of it was dog whistle racism. Horrible racist dog

01:19:50.680 whistles from the GOP. Dog whistling. So, Coleman, dog whistle. Your thoughts?

01:19:58.880 So I think there is a very real problem that parents all around the country are facing in the wake of 2020,

01:20:06.340 which was a reckoning over race and racism, which is that there are rogue teachers that

01:20:16.300 have been educated at highly, highly progressive teachers' colleges, which are sometimes even more

01:20:23.320 progressive than elite colleges for students, for undergrads. And in the wake of 2020,

01:20:30.640 many have felt empowered to basically indoctrinate their students with their own personal values that

01:20:38.680 have nothing to do with the curriculum. And parents understandably take exception to this because

01:20:45.600 you're encroaching on a parent's role, right? If you're my kid's history teacher,

01:20:52.900 it's not for you to say, to say a black kid, you are by definition a victim of white supremacy.

01:21:01.380 All people of color are by definition victims of white supremacy. These are the kinds of things

01:21:06.000 some of these rogue teachers will say in class, as if that's relevant to their learning of U.S.

01:21:13.940 history. And if you're a white kid, you have to acknowledge that all white people have white

01:21:22.060 privilege. It's like, okay, these are discussions parents can have with their kids. It's not relevant

01:21:27.600 to a history curriculum. And parents feel like they are losing control of how their kids learn

01:21:34.740 about race to these teachers that present themselves as experts, but are really just

01:21:39.700 radicals that newly feel empowered because of the climate of the country. And I think that's a major,

01:21:46.320 that's a lot of what parents mean when they say they care about education.

01:21:50.480 They're afraid to go to parent teacher conferences and risk being the one person or the first person

01:21:57.680 to say something about this because the magical accusation of racism is just too powerful.

01:22:04.540 Like if you get accused of being a racist, every word you say in defense of yourself seems to dig you

01:22:11.000 in a deeper hole. And nobody really wants, you know, people, it takes a uniquely kind of brave person

01:22:19.320 to speak up in that setting. So I have a lot of sympathy with parents that feel like their children's

01:22:25.560 educations are getting out of their hands and that are voting for that in the ballot box.

01:22:30.080 Mm hmm. I wonder, Cheryl, because I don't think the media can be shamed out of its, quote,

01:22:36.040 support or, quote, allyship of what they believe is a noble cause, you know, CRT or whatever you

01:22:42.660 want to call it in schools, wokeness. I even though the media definitely wants Democrats to win,

01:22:48.040 I just don't know that they can be shamed out of the way they cover these issues.

01:22:52.320 Well, yeah, I think it's a larger problem. It's more systemic than that. And you and I have talked

01:22:57.460 about this in the past and I've written books about it. It's so ingrained in the way news is being

01:23:02.780 covered. And journalism students in many places are being taught how to cover news so different

01:23:08.320 than when I went to journalism school and different than even 10 years ago that I'm not sure they think

01:23:15.120 it needs correcting because the goal is not necessarily to fairly represent different sides

01:23:19.560 and views and facts. The goal now has turned into convincing people that there is a right path and

01:23:25.500 that you as the journalist or media person knows the path and they ought to take it. But I will ask you

01:23:31.500 something, Megan. Wasn't there an exit poll? I have no doubt the education thing is big. I live

01:23:37.040 in Loudoun County, Virginia. Oh, and I have no doubt there's something big going on across the country

01:23:41.820 regarding these issues you bring up. But wasn't there an exit poll that said the number one issue

01:23:47.080 in Virginia was the economy? And I think education was like third.

01:23:52.420 I thought it was second, but you could it could be right. Yeah, you could be right. For sure. It was

01:23:56.280 it was on the top of the list where it's usually down low. But yeah, it wasn't at the very top.

01:24:00.980 But I think the economy is still just such a big factor that kind of took a backseat in the news

01:24:07.400 coverage. People have noticed, at least in my lifetime, I'm not a political analyst, but this is

01:24:12.240 the biggest swing I've ever noticed in economic factors in the short time period after a new

01:24:18.260 president was elected. And I think a lot of people are seeing that and worried. And I think one thing

01:24:24.280 they're concerned about is that when asked, the administration has no described plan for fixing

01:24:30.520 any of these things that are brought up. They seem to simply say this is just how it is and how

01:24:35.780 things have to be. So their plan is to spend more big factor to their plan is to spend. We went over

01:24:40.620 this yesterday, spent the show on economics. But yeah, the inflation is going to go up. And the

01:24:45.240 administration actually just said that again today. It's going to go up. They don't know when it's going

01:24:48.720 to stop. Your prices are going up. The supply chain problem hasn't been solved. And they're about to

01:24:53.460 they're trying to push through another several trillion dollar spending plan.

01:24:56.420 So you're going to feel that, too. This while we're fighting oil pipelines, trying to stop the

01:25:01.440 flow of oil as the gas prices are up, we're begging Saudi Arabia for oil that we don't really need.

01:25:05.700 All of that's factored into those concerns about the economy. But getting back to schools, Coleman,

01:25:10.020 it's of course, we've known that this is the problem in at the college level for a long time.

01:25:14.060 In this past year, it's been really exposed at the K through 12. But, you know, to me, it never I never

01:25:18.840 fail to see the sort of innate racism in the anti-racism approach. There was a story in the news just

01:25:25.580 yesterday about an Arizona State University professor who's getting rid of his traditional

01:25:30.280 grading system. We're seeing this more and more saying it's racist. And he says he's demanding

01:25:35.700 an end to white supremacy by grading papers based on effort. He says white students have privilege

01:25:40.800 because they embody the habits of white language already. He is a professor of rhetoric and

01:25:47.120 composition. And he and his wife recently launched an anti-racist teaching endowment.

01:25:50.760 And he says labor based grading labor based structurally changes everyone's relationship

01:25:57.500 to domination standards of English that come from elite masculine masculine heteronormative

01:26:04.200 ableist white racial groups of speakers. I don't I mean, I'm offended by this on behalf of all the

01:26:12.940 friends I have who are people of color. Like they're not able to participate in standard grading

01:26:18.920 because why? Because it's white ableist and racist grading on it. You know, it makes me emotional just

01:26:28.360 thinking about that. I'm picturing myself as a kid and all the other, you know, students of color in

01:26:35.160 the class not having the benefit of really an education. Like so people come from different backgrounds.

01:26:43.260 Some kids have their parents over their shoulder teaching them math better than, frankly, better

01:26:49.540 than their teachers. A lot of kids don't have that. A lot of kids are only going to get the rigorous

01:26:58.020 training in how to think and the essential skills of the mind. They're only going to get that in school.

01:27:05.280 And to say to kids of color, you actually can't compete. You can't compete with the white kids and the Asian

01:27:12.100 kids. We are not going to expect you. We're not going to demand the the rigorous standards of critical

01:27:18.240 thinking. We're going to grade you based on this touchy feely bullshit, which really means, you know, if you

01:27:25.660 fail, we're going to say that you passed. Because it makes us feel good right in this moment. And it just kicks the

01:27:33.080 can down the road. And then, you know, we and then everyone's sad when kids graduate from high

01:27:40.280 school and they can barely read. And it's like, this is really giving up. This is giving up on kids

01:27:47.260 of color. And it is it's no laughing matter. It's really, really. So it just disturbs me to my core that

01:27:56.660 this is preached in the name of anti-racism, because in effect, it is the most racist thing possible.

01:28:03.080 Mm hmm. Right. It's looking at black kids and other kids of color saying, you can't you can't do it.

01:28:11.060 You do not like the way you give someone a gift is not to exempt them from all standards,

01:28:16.600 in particular, the standards that are crucial to the development of their mind.

01:28:21.400 Right. That is not a gift. That is an assault.

01:28:23.860 Coleman Hughes, there's only one Coleman Hughes. He's a unique, special guy. And if you don't

01:28:31.660 believe me, go back to my very first I was like episode nine, I can't remember what we had Coleman

01:28:35.920 and Glenn Lowry on together. And I told a lovely story about Coleman and everybody loves you. So

01:28:41.220 it's a pleasure. Cheryl, always so great hearing your insights and people have got to check out full

01:28:45.200 measure. I had so much fun going on there and just watching your reports and your videos.

01:28:48.560 It's so great how you're so fact based. And she has a really great recent report on the people who

01:28:54.380 have who have made billions off of the whole pandemic. Some of those on the list are pretty

01:28:59.120 surprising. Guys, thanks so much. Thanks, Megan. Thanks for having me on, Megan. You can check us

01:29:03.620 out on YouTube as well. YouTube dot com slash Megan Kelly. You download us as a podcast any place you

01:29:08.560 get your podcasts and we'll do it all over again tomorrow. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly

01:29:13.780 Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - November 10, 2021

Rittenhouse Takes Stand, COVID Overreach, and Lemon's Accuser Responds, with Sharyl Attkisson, Coleman Hughes, Robert Barnes and Dustin Hice ｜ Ep. 200

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript