Former Illinois Governor Rod Blagoevich's story is a cautionary tale of power and corruption, of wheeling and dealing that ultimately landed him behind bars in part thanks to hundreds of hours of audio from FBI wiretaps that were, some would say, golden.
00:02:14.020You're very open in the documentary and your wife gives an interview too.
00:02:19.260And it's just like sort of here I am, you know, like it or not, this is me.
00:02:23.740So anyway, I commend it and I hope people watch it.
00:02:26.320So let's talk about you and a little bit about your background.
00:02:28.400So people who don't know you know who you are.
00:02:31.900Middle-class kid from Chicago, basketball player.
00:02:36.540Talk about your family and sort of how you grew up.
00:02:38.320Well, I grew up in a working-class neighborhood, working-class kid.
00:02:42.000My father was an immigrant factory worker.
00:02:44.280My dad came from Yugoslavia after World War II.
00:02:46.400He spent four years in a Nazi prisoner of war camp.
00:02:49.060And then after the war, he spent three years in a refugee camp in Austria waiting for the United States Congress to pass a law called the Displaced Persons Act,
00:02:56.860which allowed him and millions of others like him with these long and hard to pronounce last names, a chance to come to America.
00:03:01.940He came here eventually, met my mother, who was, fortunately for me, American-born, because had she been from the old country like my dad,
00:03:09.120I think my first name would have been as hard to pronounce as my last name.
00:03:32.120We were raised in a little five-room apartment, my older brother and I.
00:03:35.760And my parents were like parents everywhere.
00:03:38.180They worked real hard, sacrificed, scrimped and saved so that their kids can go to college.
00:03:42.120And my older brother and I had that opportunity because of the hard work and sacrifice of our parents.
00:03:47.600So you went off to college and you did okay.
00:03:50.200You went on to law school, stayed in Chicago, came back home and got a job for the Cook County DA's office.
00:03:57.860So you were a prosecutor first thing at a law school and practiced in the very same courthouses I practiced in for my first couple of years at a law school as well.
00:04:06.280I was in private practice for, I don't know, two years there.
00:04:09.120Then went to New York, went back for another three years in Chicago.
00:04:11.160So I know the buildings in which you spent your formative legal career.
00:04:15.380And then as I see it, sort of the shifting point of your life, if you know, you can pick the certain pivot points where your future has changed.
00:04:24.640It was the meeting of your wife's father, right?
00:04:51.340So judges need the support of political ward bosses.
00:04:55.040Patty's dad, my wife, Patty, her dad was one of the more prominent ward bosses in Chicago, old school Chicago politics.
00:05:01.680And the judge asked me if I'd be willing to, if I'd be interested in going with him to attend a fundraiser because he was trying to get the support of this ward committeeman, this ward boss, Patty's dad.
00:06:17.340But her dad, so he was this sort of, you know, kingmaker in the ward in Chicago and decided you should run for office and you could be his guy.
00:06:27.800And Chicago's very elbow-to-elbow rubbing kind of politic world.
00:06:31.460It's not tough to make it if you don't know somebody.
00:08:13.840Anybody who's watched you on the campaign trail or on the stump, there is a natural ease that you have in speaking with crowds, in presenting yourself, in dealing with everyone from presidents to, you know, bus ticket takers.
00:08:37.420You know, somebody asked me that question recently.
00:08:39.640And I think part of that, you know, that sort of skill that you have in politics, that it's a people's business, I might have learned that early on.
00:08:47.440You know, when I was a little boy, my first job was nine years old, shining shoes.
00:08:51.400I was shining shoes in the neighborhood, and I shined shoes at this factory that my mother worked at before she worked for the transit authority.
00:08:59.240And I worked as a shoeshine boy after school every day between the ages of nine and 13.
00:09:05.680And in order to get to make money, in other words, to make tips, because that's how you really, you're not going to get rich being a shoeshine boy at nine years old.
00:09:12.840But the way you can, you know, do better and earn more money is to hustle around and earn tips.
00:09:18.700And I'm not claiming to be the best shoeshine person out there.
00:09:23.300The quality of my shoeshines could have been better than they were.
00:09:26.380But I think I was pretty good while I was shining the shoes and maybe talking to the men who hired me and they'd give me a quarter for the shine.
00:10:21.760So before I was elected, there were, you know, these sort of common anglicized Irish last names that look that are comfortable on the ballot for people to vote for.
00:10:32.060And the expectation was somebody with a name like mine could never get votes in the southern part of our state, which is, you know, the southern Illinois is the American South.
00:10:40.440In fact, Carbondale, Illinois, you can reach Montgomery, Alabama faster from Carbondale, Illinois, than you can reach Chicago.
00:10:48.460So people were saying, you know, he'll never be able to get votes down there.
00:10:51.040And they said the same thing about Obama.
00:10:52.820But I'm not going to take credit for Obama's political success.
00:10:55.220But I will say that I was the icebreaker because when I was elected in 2002, somebody like Barack Obama with a different kind of a last name, I think he felt that, well, if a guy with a name like Blagojevich can win statewide, I can too.
00:11:15.620The Democratic primary for governor was very hard.
00:11:18.520The Republican candidate that I ran against, the attorney general of our state, had very high approval ratings.
00:11:23.840He has a real compelling personal story and showed a lot of courage with how he handled some of his personal difficulties with his family, loved ones who he lost.
00:11:31.020But I was on the right side of history at that point.
00:11:33.440The Democratic nominee, whoever it was going to be, was going to possibly, probably ride the currents of history.
00:11:39.660I think Illinois was hungry for change.
00:11:42.440And so when I was able to win that primary, which was hard, I pretty much, you know, swam the currents to win in November and became the first Democratic.
00:11:51.300So they even had your campaign signs even showed people how to pronounce Blagojevich with the blah, goy, yeah, vich.
00:12:02.300But when you actually watch it, when you look at it spelled, it does seem more challenging.
00:12:05.700OK, so things were going swimmingly and you were climbing up the political ranks and you've married Patty, Mr. Mel, Richard, Dick Mel's daughter.
00:12:13.920And you have two daughters of your own and things are going pretty well.
00:12:17.220Then, as I see it, the first real turn is something happened between you and your father-in-law.
00:12:23.520And he wanted you to do something and you didn't do it involving like a landfill in his ward.
00:12:33.060Yes, it was in December of 2004, spilling into January of 2005.
00:12:37.220I learned of a landfill he was involved in with some shady characters who had had some problems with the federal prosecutors years before.
00:12:44.360I was told by people in my administration and the Environmental Agency of Illinois that they were operating improperly outside of the law, that they were taking things that they weren't supposed to legally take.
00:12:58.100And so I had a tough decision to make and it really wasn't tough.
00:13:01.220I mean, the public, my public duty was I had to do something to make sure he complied with the law.
00:13:19.620I consulted with a lot of different people who sort of knew the dynamic and knew my father-in-law, who's a tough, rough and tumble political guy.
00:13:26.400And, you know, Chicago politics in many ways, those family connections, of course, you indicated that a moment ago are important.
00:13:33.900But you've got to remember, I was not a blood relative.
00:14:15.040The problem was Megan, of course, predictably, was very angry about it and came out and called a press conference and then made an accusation that was false.
00:14:23.020And my top political fundraiser, who shares your last name, his name was Chris Kelly, was trading board and commission appointments in exchange for $50,000 campaign contributions.
00:14:33.060Now, that's a crime if you do a quid pro quo for a campaign contribution.
00:14:36.580And once he did that, he unleashed the furies.
00:14:40.060And he knew he was smart enough in politics to know that that's precisely what would happen here in Chicago.
00:14:45.440And within a month, the federal prosecutors wanted to interview me.
00:14:48.900Now, he retracted what he said under a threat of a lawsuit, said he had no information to believe any of that was true.
00:14:56.800And once those furies are unleashed and those federal prosecutors put a target on you, boy, they're relentless, they're ruthless, they're remorseless, and they have unlimited power, unlimited resources, and the ability to try you over and over again, even if they can't convict you the first time.
00:15:11.480Whatever happened with your relationship with him?
00:15:26.600And it was very difficult for Patty, as you can imagine, very difficult for all of us.
00:15:29.580Because, well, he's my father-in-law, and we have a lot of personal experience together.
00:15:33.260And in spite of it all, I love my father-in-law.
00:15:36.860So while I was still governor during the remaining years, which were another three, four, I kept my distance because I was frankly afraid he would try to hurt me again.
00:15:49.680And then when calamity came into my life, and you'll talk about that as we move along in this interview, I really didn't have any contact with him.
00:15:57.160When I left for prison, I said goodbye, and, you know, asked him, I hope you can be helpful to your grandchildren.
00:16:06.980And, of course, he said yes, and he was.
00:16:09.300He's got a lot of real good qualities.
00:16:11.080Now, so after that hiatus, and I've been gone for all those years, eight years, just short of eight years, I returned home.
00:17:39.740I wasn't surprised that they were taping me.
00:17:41.660When I was having all those conversations, I figured it was very possible that they were,
00:17:45.920because I knew that, you know, they were chasing me and they were after me.
00:17:49.440And when you come out of Chicago politics, you just assume, even at the lowest level, that there's those elements.
00:17:54.520And so you hopefully want to be honest in the things that you do, but you talk on the telephone in a way where let the whole world listen to it,
00:18:01.740because what you're talking about, you know, is legal and you're acting in good faith.
00:19:31.280And I learned the possibility that somebody who was real close to me was wearing a wire on me on the Friday before that I was arrested on Tuesday.
00:19:41.360And so that's a wake up call as well, because it's just another indication that they are really determined to try to find something to get you on something.
00:19:48.980Coming up, we're digging into the infamous tapes and the concept of legal or illegal bribery.
00:20:18.980I'm interested in sort of the human aspect of this story.
00:20:37.680I mean, did you have sleepless nights?
00:20:46.400Just that Tuesday to Friday, if you remember.
00:20:48.020Well, that Friday to Tuesday was, yes, that was a lot more troubling than maybe some of the earlier nights.
00:20:54.700But some of the anger that's on those tapes, when you hear, I've heard myself on those tapes that have been played publicly.
00:21:00.420And by the way, Megan, let me just say this.
00:21:02.440You talk about hundreds of hours of tapes and you're right, but they only played 1% of them.
00:21:06.200And to this day, I can't get them to play all those tapes.
00:21:09.000They wouldn't even allow me to play them in court to defend myself.
00:21:11.760And I suspect we'll probably talk more about the case.
00:21:13.920But I wanted every one of those tapes heard.
00:21:15.980I wanted the full context of those conversations heard because they would show the real truth.
00:21:20.120Okay, but let me ask you, I heard, I heard you say that a million times and we can get into the tapes and I have, I have, you know, some of the more infamous excerpts, but if that, look, and I didn't read every single moment of the trial transcript or anything like that.
00:21:32.820But in general, I did practice a lot for 10 years.
00:21:36.500And if you had something that was exculpatory on those tapes, meaning led to, you know, a finding of innocence, your lawyers would have played them.
00:21:43.600Your lawyers would have been able to get them in.
00:21:45.240The court would have allowed them in for completeness, if nothing else.
00:21:48.440You're telling me that there's some magic bullet in those tapes that never got played.
00:21:51.600Then your lawyers are terrible and you should have, you should have filed an appeal based on ineffective assistance of counsel.
00:21:56.580Okay, everything you just said there is absolutely right, except one thing.
00:21:59.000We asked for the tapes to be played at both trials, especially the second trial.
00:22:02.860I agreed to testify at the second trial on condition that we could play the tapes.
00:22:06.460And the judge said, yes, we could play the tapes to corroborate my testimony because I foresaw the real likely possibility that if I got up and testified to a set of conversations that I had, and if those tapes weren't there, the prosecutor would do exactly what he did.
00:22:19.160And that is lie to the jury and tell the jury to go back to the jury room and listen to the tapes to see whether or not it corroborates with what I'm saying.
00:22:26.420The fact is, it's all in the court record and the appellate court shockingly whitewashed it, didn't even address the issue that they wouldn't allow me to play those tapes.
00:22:34.740And they would not allow me to play those tapes.
00:24:08.140The Seventh Circuit made very clear, in looking at your case, on your appeal, wink, wink, nod, nod, is sufficient.
00:24:15.320No politician, most, wouldn't be dumb enough to be like, you've got to make a $50,000 donation to my campaign tomorrow, and then the day after tomorrow, I will approve the legislation that's going to help your racetrack, sir.
00:24:30.040Okay, by the way, well, but the reality is that's exactly how the system works.
00:24:35.600So, for example, the big drug companies contribute campaign contributions to United States senators and congressmen while they're voting on their things.
00:24:57.840And in 2014, that Citizens United case, the Supreme Court reaffirmed that standard in McCormick, saying the only way you would limit compelling, the only compelling interest to limit free speech, because that's what fundraising is.
00:25:10.220They call it free speech, this so-called quid pro quo corruption.
00:25:14.640Knowing where the line was, we never promised anything, we never threatened anybody.
00:25:18.460They upheld three fundraising requests where I received nothing after they vacated the Senate.
00:25:40.780And I'm not going to dispute with you that you were singled out and that a lot of people, and your example of the drug companies is a great one, very apt.
00:25:49.280They do buy favors all the time from politicians who are also corrupt.
00:26:04.680I'm just giving you the way I see it as a lawyer.
00:26:06.500Yes, but again, the law is you can ask for campaign contributions while something's pending, before something's pending, or after something's pending, so long as you never promise anything or threaten anybody.
00:26:22.240They convicted me by moving the line at a second trial.
00:26:25.400The appellate court upheld it, I believe, because the political consequences were so significant, because someone's going down.
00:26:31.280Either I'm going down, or those federal prosecutors, those corrupt federal prosecutors who did to me what they tried to do to President Trump, they would go down because they hijacked a governor twice elected by the people.
00:26:43.860And I know that the trial, if you were there and saw it, if you read our appellate brief, and I wouldn't ask you to do it, you have too much more important things to do.
00:26:53.180But I knew where the line was, I knew they were chasing me, I wasn't that stupid, and they moved the line and I ended up going to prison largely because I fought back and I was defiant every step of the way, wouldn't take any deals that were being dangled in front of me.
00:27:09.360And I certainly believe that you did not foresee a conviction, a conviction, your behavior backs that up.
00:27:15.420But I have to be honest with my audience, I think they got you dead to rights, I think you did do it, I think you were singled out, but I mean, having watched a lot of the trial and covered it at the time, as an attorney and a journalist, when you were going through it, and then buffing back up on the whole case for this interview, they got you.
00:27:34.940I mean, they got you for an attempt, you didn't get the money because you were actually arrested before all the shit could go down.
00:27:40.220But you were striking deals, and I'll just give a couple of examples, these are a couple cited by the Seventh Circuit, but there was number one, lobbyists for Children Memorial Hospital saw an increase in reimbursement rates for Medicaid patients, that was in your control as the governor, and you said you would approve an extra $8 to $10 million of reimbursements in exchange for a, quote, campaign contribution of $50,000.
00:28:00.100And initially, you approved that rate increase that they wanted, but then you rescinded it when you were waiting for the contribution, then you got arrested before any money changed hands.
00:28:10.860Then there was another situation with the state legislature approving an extension of a program that taxed casinos, and that tax would help racetracks.
00:28:18.340It was for the benefit of racetracks, which didn't do as well in Illinois.
00:28:20.780But before you could sign the bill, you attempted to ensure that a guy named John Johnston, who owned interest in two of the racetracks, fulfilled a, quote, $100,000 campaign pledge, and you had intermediaries inform Johnston that the bill would not be signed until your money arrived.
00:28:39.280And again, you were arrested before you could sign the bill and before he signed the check.
00:29:06.300Do you dispute that that is what the jury so found?
00:29:09.380No, no, the jury certainly did find it.
00:29:11.280And the jury found it because they didn't have to prove a quid pro quo where that was said, that I asked for a $50,000 campaign contribution in exchange for the reimbursement to the doctors of the children's hospital.
00:29:27.520I agreed to send $8 million to the children's hospital.
00:29:30.620That was a hospital that I cared a lot about.
00:29:33.180I did this because the head of the hospital called me.
00:29:36.820I was cutting $2 billion in increases in the state budget because I have a responsibility as governor to balance the budget.
00:29:42.780I told him that they would get the money after the first of the year because my budget people told me I'd be able to find $8 million to help them.
00:29:50.060Five days later, I asked my brother, who was doing fundraising for me, to see if they'll do a fundraiser for me.
00:29:56.300I was because they had raised money for me before.
00:29:59.060My brother made a polite phone call to the director, asked him, could you raise?
00:30:02.160I think he asked him for $25,000, and that was it, and the guy said, I don't know, and the prosecutor told the jury that that ask was the shakedown.
00:30:12.580That is not the standard, and that prosecutor's a liar, so that's the facts on that case.
00:30:18.780The other one, and by the way, they got their money, and I never got campaign contributions, and I'm happy I didn't.
00:30:23.920Having said that, that horse racing one, I have 60 days to act on a bill.
00:30:28.460There were a lot of dynamics going on in state government at that time.
00:30:31.840I was fighting with the Democratic House Speaker over all kinds of different issues.
00:30:36.620I found creative ways to use my executive authority as governor to rewrite some of their bills and make it work for people.
00:30:43.780Because I was doing that, he started doing things in the veto session on some of my bills, and therefore I was careful before I signed any bill.
00:30:51.960I said, it's on the tapes. I'm not going to act on any of these bills until I see them all together to see whether or not there's any shenanigans going on and people rewriting some of the laws that I'm for or not for.
00:31:03.440Long and the short of it is that horse racing bill was one of them.
00:31:06.300Nine days into it, I did nothing on it, one way or the other.
00:31:09.780We were asking for campaign contributions from those people.
00:31:13.380They had held a fundraiser for some of the state senators at the same time.
00:31:16.640I did nothing and never promised or threatened them.
00:31:19.760But anyway, the jury made the decision, I believe, because the jury instruction was merely asking, even without a promise or a threat, because they were not required to prove that, was the crime.
00:31:31.860And so the jury made the right decision based upon the unlawful standard that they were asked to judge me on.
00:31:38.900That's what I understand your skepticism.
00:31:42.220And listen, I think you're misreading McCormick.
00:31:43.860I think the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with me that the standard applied by the court was totally fine and that wink, wink, nod, nod is enough.
00:32:12.180OK, so I've conceded to you that I think you were singled out, but I'm I'm in no way going to miss me, mislead my audience, that you're some victim who was wrongly convicted of doing something that you didn't do.
00:32:23.200Because I think they I'm just telling you, I think they got you.
00:32:57.240And being good to the people around you.
00:32:58.480And if you've done wrong, trying to do better, you know, every day thereafter.
00:33:02.600And as far as I can tell, you're doing that.
00:33:04.320I mean, I see a man now who is who really has nothing left to lose and who is trying to make the most of the time you have left, trying to be good to your family, trying to need to go back out to the Chicago constituents and make friends and sort of build alliances.
00:34:33.760I mean, I've got this thing and it's fucking golden.
00:34:39.200And I'm just not giving it up for fucking nothing.
00:34:41.900So that was the tape heard around the world and the one that would become emblematic of the entire prosecution.
00:34:48.660And again, I should underscore for the audience that that that count did not live for a variety of reasons, even though I understand you were convicted on it.
00:34:57.560But it was thrown out ultimately by some sort.
00:34:59.780So, I mean, can you explain what was really happening in that moment?
00:35:03.380Because they were saying you're trying to sell the seat.
00:35:28.580But I talked about how, you know, Abraham Lincoln is known for so many beautiful things that he said, you know, with malice torn on with charity for all four score and seven years ago, a house divided against itself cannot stand.
00:35:38.720Franklin Roosevelt is known for there's nothing to fear but fear itself.
00:35:42.980President Kennedy asked not what your country can do for you.
00:36:08.800First time we elected an African-American president.
00:36:11.100I was the first governor to endorse him.
00:36:12.640We were all downtown Chicago for that historic event.
00:36:15.360It was a magical night and a labor boss, a union guy by the name of Tom Balinov, came up to me backstage and said that, quote unquote, Barack called me last night.
00:36:25.140I was pumping gas and he asked me if I'd come to you because he wants Valerie Jarrett to be the United States senator.
00:36:30.500And I was asked to come and see, talk to you, see what you want.
00:36:34.680Can I call you tomorrow and set up an appointment?
00:36:52.600I remember I was still cooling down from the run and I was laying on the floor in our family room talking on the phone to one of my aides.
00:37:00.980And we were having that conversation that you just played.
00:37:03.560And and then I said that and I said that in the context of we can make a political deal here and let's see what we can get.
00:37:11.720And when I said I'm not giving this up or nothing, that was sort of in response to some people who were saying just give Obama whatever he wants.
00:37:43.600Well, it's kind of interesting because what the court ultimately found was one politician saying, you know, I'll give you I'll give you a Valerie Jarrett as the next senator from Illinois.
00:37:55.800If you give me a cabinet position in your new presidential administration, that's not illegal, that that's done.
00:38:03.140That kind of horse trading is done all the time by politicians who have different stakes in their minds on different positions.
00:38:11.680And they they were not prepared to recognize that kind of horse trading as a crime, which is I don't think much of the public knows.
00:38:22.500If you're talking about trading one seat for another one position for an advancement on the political front, you know, in terms of a position, it's not as problematic as give me 50 grand and I'll approve this legislation that'll help you.
00:38:36.160That's now you're in much murkier waters.
00:38:39.400But as you point out, you're kind of known for this.
00:38:42.400And I wonder whether because, you know, the.
00:38:44.880My impression in reading the court papers is they make Obama and his team come out as squeaky clean.
00:38:49.640And I just wondered, are they squeaky clean or is it this is just a legal system that's what that wants to portray Obama and his team as squeaky clean, like we'll have nothing to do with him.
00:40:29.820My fear was, were they going to try to threaten him and make him lie about me so that he gets a lighter sentence?
00:40:36.420And after he was convicted, he sent a letter to the federal sentencing judge saying that the federal prosecutors were trying to get him to lie about Senator Obama and Governor Blagojevich, both of us.
00:40:46.540And so Obama and I were both sort of tonied up, if you want to talk in the street vernacular, and we had that problem politically.
00:40:55.080I believe, and I can't, I don't have, I don't know that I can prove this, but I have a strong belief that a lot of my troubles were compounded by the fact that the Obama political apparatus was dumping Rescoe on me.
00:41:09.360And it became, he was more my problem than Obama's problem.
00:41:13.260He was running for high office, be president of the United States.
00:41:15.980The media treated him in a way that was unusual.
00:41:43.360Now, you know, you disagree with my characterization of what happened to me on the cases.
00:41:47.040But I firmly believe Obama and I were pretty much following the same routine practices in politics and government.
00:41:53.480And then when my troubles came, politically, Obama saw the problem for him and decided to allow me to sink or swim on my own and went his own way to protect himself.
00:42:04.840Politics is a rough and tumble business.
00:42:06.660It's very understandable, very predictable.
00:42:10.040And I think he was protecting himself politically.
00:42:13.480And I was left pretty much on a sinking ship.
00:42:22.360And that's how I interpret what happened with Obama.
00:42:24.920And I think that's why among the reasons why he when he had an opportunity to actually do what President Trump ultimately did, he chose not to do it.
00:42:34.240OK, so that's fascinating because he did have the chance to commute your sentence.
00:42:38.140And just so the audience understands, a pardon is when they basically wipe away the crime altogether and you no longer have to say that you were a convicted felon.
00:42:46.100But a commutation is basically you've suffered enough.
00:42:49.760I'm ending your prison term now, notwithstanding what the what the sentence was.
00:42:53.800And that's what Trump gave you, a commutation.
00:42:55.820And your family had asked President Obama for a commutation.
00:43:00.000And your young daughter wrote this, you know, heart wrenching letter.
00:43:04.460Your whole family had pushed for him to give you a commutation first time around.