The Megyn Kelly Show - Rod Blagojevich on Corruption in Politics, Overcoming Adversity, and the State of the Democratic Party ｜ Ep. 274

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00:00:31.160 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.540 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.720 Today I am joined by someone who reached the pinnacle of politics

00:00:49.180 only to see his world come crashing down when then-Senator Barack Obama became president.

00:00:54.420 I am speaking about former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich.

00:00:59.620 His journey is fascinating and a cautionary tale of power and corruption,

00:01:04.020 of wheeling and dealing that ultimately landed him behind bars,

00:01:07.240 in part thanks to hundreds of hours of audio from FBI wiretaps

00:01:12.000 that were, some would say, golden.

00:01:15.580 Two years ago, he was released early from federal prison.

00:01:18.760 His sentence commuted by then-President Trump,

00:01:22.360 who had hosted the Celebrity Apprentice before he became president,

00:01:29.280 on which Rod Blagojevich had been a contestant after he'd been impeached

00:01:35.280 and while he was in the midst of criminal trouble, but before he went off to prison.

00:01:39.960 We're going to ask him about all of this and get his very interesting take

00:01:43.560 on the current state of the Democratic Party and on what he learned in prison.

00:01:49.140 Rod Blagojevich, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

00:01:52.260 Hi, Megyn. Thanks for having me.

00:01:54.240 Oh, it's a pleasure. I watched the ABC special on you.

00:01:58.840 It's on Hulu now. Blago. What's it called?

00:02:03.000 It's called Being Blago. 1.00

00:02:05.220 Being Blago. And it was good, I have to say. 1.00

00:02:07.080 My husband watched it and then we roped in our 12-year-old son.

00:02:09.420 He started watching it and you're a fascinating guy.

00:02:12.660 I mean, you're very interesting.

00:02:14.020 You're very open in the documentary and your wife gives an interview too.

00:02:19.260 And it's just like sort of here I am, you know, like it or not, this is me.

00:02:23.740 So anyway, I commend it and I hope people watch it.

00:02:26.320 So let's talk about you and a little bit about your background.

00:02:28.400 So people who don't know you know who you are.

00:02:31.900 Middle-class kid from Chicago, basketball player.

00:02:36.540 Talk about your family and sort of how you grew up.

00:02:38.320 Well, I grew up in a working-class neighborhood, working-class kid.

00:02:42.000 My father was an immigrant factory worker.

00:02:44.280 My dad came from Yugoslavia after World War II.

00:02:46.400 He spent four years in a Nazi prisoner of war camp.

00:02:49.060 And then after the war, he spent three years in a refugee camp in Austria waiting for the United States Congress to pass a law called the Displaced Persons Act,

00:02:56.860 which allowed him and millions of others like him with these long and hard to pronounce last names, a chance to come to America.

00:03:01.940 He came here eventually, met my mother, who was, fortunately for me, American-born, because had she been from the old country like my dad, 0.92

00:03:09.120 I think my first name would have been as hard to pronounce as my last name.

00:03:12.440 I would have never been governor.

00:03:13.660 But then again, I would have probably never been inmate number 40892424.

00:03:17.000 But they were working people.

00:03:20.640 My dad worked in a factory, a steel factory, a lot of other factories over the years.

00:03:24.940 My mother was a working mom. 1.00

00:03:26.320 She worked for the Chicago Transit Authority.

00:03:27.920 She took fares and passed out transfers at the subway stations.

00:03:31.220 They never owned a home.

00:03:32.120 We were raised in a little five-room apartment, my older brother and I.

00:03:35.760 And my parents were like parents everywhere.

00:03:38.180 They worked real hard, sacrificed, scrimped and saved so that their kids can go to college.

00:03:42.120 And my older brother and I had that opportunity because of the hard work and sacrifice of our parents.

00:03:47.600 So you went off to college and you did okay.

00:03:50.200 You went on to law school, stayed in Chicago, came back home and got a job for the Cook County DA's office.

00:03:57.860 So you were a prosecutor first thing at a law school and practiced in the very same courthouses I practiced in for my first couple of years at a law school as well.

00:04:05.160 I went back to Chicago.

00:04:06.280 I was in private practice for, I don't know, two years there.

00:04:09.120 Then went to New York, went back for another three years in Chicago.

00:04:11.160 So I know the buildings in which you spent your formative legal career.

00:04:15.380 And then as I see it, sort of the shifting point of your life, if you know, you can pick the certain pivot points where your future has changed.

00:04:24.640 It was the meeting of your wife's father, right?

00:04:28.740 Mr. Mel, tell us about that.

00:04:30.860 Well, so I was a young prosecutor and I was just about to leave and go under the private practice of law.

00:04:35.160 And I was friendly with a judge and he was friends with my future wife's father.

00:04:40.580 They were both young.

00:04:41.920 They were both members of the Democratic Party.

00:04:44.420 They were both young Democrats together coming up in the 1960s.

00:04:48.540 You know, Chicago is a very political town.

00:04:50.240 Judges are elected here.

00:04:51.340 So judges need the support of political ward bosses. 0.95

00:04:55.040 Patty's dad, my wife, Patty, her dad was one of the more prominent ward bosses in Chicago, old school Chicago politics.

00:05:01.680 And the judge asked me if I'd be willing to, if I'd be interested in going with him to attend a fundraiser because he was trying to get the support of this ward committeeman, this ward boss, Patty's dad.

00:05:12.520 And I met Patty that night.

00:05:13.840 It was a Sunday night, March 6th.

00:05:15.480 Sunday night, March 6th, 1988.

00:05:17.100 She was wearing a red dress and it was love at first sight on my part.

00:05:21.160 It was not the same on her part.

00:05:23.260 It was probably, you can argue, the first political camp, not political campaign because it was all about being genuine.

00:05:28.380 But eventually she and I fell in love and we exchanged vows, joined hands and walked through life together.

00:05:35.780 And Patty's been amazing, you know, through thick and thin.

00:05:38.040 We've had a lot of good times, as you know, and we've had some calamitous times, as you know.

00:05:42.540 And Patty's been there every step of the way, and she's just a wonderful person, a wonderful mother.

00:05:47.280 I'm really blessed and fortunate.

00:05:48.780 And I pitched myself.

00:05:50.320 I can't believe she married me and I can't believe she stayed with me.

00:05:53.780 She did.

00:05:54.140 She stayed with you all the time.

00:05:55.360 You were in prison, raising your daughters.

00:05:57.600 She comes off as a heroine in the documentary about you.

00:06:01.740 And I liked her honesty.

00:06:03.860 She admitted she was annoyed.

00:06:05.260 She admitted when, you know, she definitely does not want you to run again for office if you can.

00:06:09.900 And we'll get to her and your relationship a little later because I am very interested in it.

00:06:15.540 She's a fascinating character.

00:06:17.340 But her dad, so he was this sort of, you know, kingmaker in the ward in Chicago and decided you should run for office and you could be his guy.

00:06:27.800 And Chicago's very elbow-to-elbow rubbing kind of politic world.

00:06:31.460 It's not tough to make it if you don't know somebody.

00:06:33.900 You knew somebody.

00:06:34.900 And he decided to make a king out of you, right?

00:06:37.540 So you spent time as a U.S. congressman.

00:06:40.880 You were in the state assembly for a while in Illinois.

00:06:43.320 And it was after your term as a U.S. congressman that you decided to go for the governor's office.

00:06:47.160 Do I have my facts right?

00:06:49.140 Well, that was the chronology, yes.

00:06:50.680 And I would say that, you know, when my opportunity came to run for office, it was more really about his politics.

00:06:56.360 So the political ward bosses, you know, they have a, there's a certain stature if they have a state lawmaker who's connected to them.

00:07:04.720 And without going into all the details of it, he was being outmaneuvered by some of the other ward bosses in the area.

00:07:10.580 One of them, the most noteworthy, was former Congressman Dan Rostenkowski, who was a real political powerhouse in Washington for decades.

00:07:18.500 And so they had a state lawmaker who was an incumbent who had been there for 12 years.

00:07:22.720 And my father-in-law was looking around for someone to run against that person.

00:07:26.660 And it was me, just because I happened to be in the family.

00:07:28.900 I had this long and hard to pronounce last name.

00:07:30.580 We had no really expectation that I'd even win.

00:07:33.720 But we worked real hard.

00:07:35.020 I was pretty good at it.

00:07:37.180 And, well, I won.

00:07:38.540 And then we won in such a way where I think we caught the attention of some other people.

00:07:42.640 And then I had a chance to be able to run for that very congressional seat that Dan Rostenkowski had since 1959.

00:07:48.820 And then after that, well, I gave that up to run for governor.

00:07:53.040 And then Rahm Emanuel, who's a noteworthy person, he ran for that congressional seat after me.

00:07:58.140 Not just pretty good at it.

00:07:59.540 You're amazing at retail politics.

00:08:02.840 I mean, obviously, you ran into some criminal trouble, and we'll talk about that.

00:08:06.800 But as far as retail politics go, fewer, better.

00:08:11.840 I mean, you can see that.

00:08:13.840 Anybody who's watched you on the campaign trail or on the stump, there is a natural ease that you have in speaking with crowds, in presenting yourself, in dealing with everyone from presidents to, you know, bus ticket takers.

00:08:28.900 Have you always been like that?

00:08:29.960 Did you grow up, you know, extroverted and popular and quick to make friends?

00:08:35.200 You know, that's a good question.

00:08:36.360 I don't know.

00:08:37.420 You know, somebody asked me that question recently.

00:08:39.640 And I think part of that, you know, that sort of skill that you have in politics, that it's a people's business, I might have learned that early on.

00:08:47.440 You know, when I was a little boy, my first job was nine years old, shining shoes.

00:08:51.400 I was shining shoes in the neighborhood, and I shined shoes at this factory that my mother worked at before she worked for the transit authority.

00:08:59.240 And I worked as a shoeshine boy after school every day between the ages of nine and 13.

00:09:04.500 So I had four years of that.

00:09:05.680 And in order to get to make money, in other words, to make tips, because that's how you really, you're not going to get rich being a shoeshine boy at nine years old.

00:09:12.840 But the way you can, you know, do better and earn more money is to hustle around and earn tips.

00:09:18.700 And I'm not claiming to be the best shoeshine person out there.

00:09:23.300 The quality of my shoeshines could have been better than they were.

00:09:26.380 But I think I was pretty good while I was shining the shoes and maybe talking to the men who hired me and they'd give me a quarter for the shine.

00:09:34.120 And most of the time I'd get a tip.

00:09:36.340 And maybe it goes back to that.

00:09:38.200 I don't know.

00:09:39.060 You know, I was not exactly setting the world on fire in public school here in Chicago.

00:09:42.660 But I did rise pretty high.

00:09:46.540 And I guess I was I do think I was pretty good at politics.

00:09:49.000 I never lost an election.

00:09:50.040 I won every one of them.

00:09:51.120 They were all hard and contested.

00:09:52.920 The Democratic primaries especially were very hard because those are hotly contested.

00:09:56.980 You fight within your own party.

00:09:59.220 So I think, yes, I guess I have to say that I had some skill at that.

00:10:02.880 I was a lot better in politics than I was at algebra.

00:10:05.320 That's for sure.

00:10:06.060 Weren't you wasn't when you got elected, weren't you the first Democrat to be elected governor in something like 30 years and in Illinois?

00:10:13.660 Yes, that's right.

00:10:14.180 I was the first Democratic governor elected in 26 years.

00:10:16.980 And I was the first person statewide to be elected with these crazy long last names.

00:10:21.400 Right.

00:10:21.760 So before I was elected, there were, you know, these sort of common anglicized Irish last names that look that are comfortable on the ballot for people to vote for.

00:10:32.060 And the expectation was somebody with a name like mine could never get votes in the southern part of our state, which is, you know, the southern Illinois is the American South.

00:10:40.440 In fact, Carbondale, Illinois, you can reach Montgomery, Alabama faster from Carbondale, Illinois, than you can reach Chicago.

00:10:48.460 So people were saying, you know, he'll never be able to get votes down there.

00:10:51.040 And they said the same thing about Obama.

00:10:52.820 But I'm not going to take credit for Obama's political success.

00:10:55.220 But I will say that I was the icebreaker because when I was elected in 2002, somebody like Barack Obama with a different kind of a last name, I think he felt that, well, if a guy with a name like Blagojevich can win statewide, I can too.

00:11:08.140 And, of course, he was right.

00:11:10.820 So, yes, I was the first Democrat in 26 years.

00:11:13.760 I had a lot of people helping me.

00:11:15.620 The Democratic primary for governor was very hard.

00:11:18.520 The Republican candidate that I ran against, the attorney general of our state, had very high approval ratings.

00:11:23.840 He has a real compelling personal story and showed a lot of courage with how he handled some of his personal difficulties with his family, loved ones who he lost.

00:11:31.020 But I was on the right side of history at that point.

00:11:33.440 The Democratic nominee, whoever it was going to be, was going to possibly, probably ride the currents of history.

00:11:39.660 I think Illinois was hungry for change.

00:11:42.440 And so when I was able to win that primary, which was hard, I pretty much, you know, swam the currents to win in November and became the first Democratic.

00:11:51.300 So they even had your campaign signs even showed people how to pronounce Blagojevich with the blah, goy, yeah, vich.

00:12:00.540 Which now it seems easy.

00:12:02.300 But when you actually watch it, when you look at it spelled, it does seem more challenging.

00:12:05.700 OK, so things were going swimmingly and you were climbing up the political ranks and you've married Patty, Mr. Mel, Richard, Dick Mel's daughter.

00:12:13.920 And you have two daughters of your own and things are going pretty well.

00:12:17.220 Then, as I see it, the first real turn is something happened between you and your father-in-law.

00:12:23.520 And he wanted you to do something and you didn't do it involving like a landfill in his ward.

00:12:28.460 And, man, things hit the fan.

00:12:31.400 Explain that moment.

00:12:33.060 Yes, it was in December of 2004, spilling into January of 2005.

00:12:37.220 I learned of a landfill he was involved in with some shady characters who had had some problems with the federal prosecutors years before.

00:12:44.360 I was told by people in my administration and the Environmental Agency of Illinois that they were operating improperly outside of the law, that they were taking things that they weren't supposed to legally take.

00:12:58.100 And so I had a tough decision to make and it really wasn't tough.

00:13:01.220 I mean, the public, my public duty was I had to do something to make sure he complied with the law.

00:13:05.780 The question was how you did it.

00:13:07.220 And what I did was I chose to shut it down, which gave him an opportunity to go into court, make his case, remedy the problem.

00:13:13.400 And the court would order the landfill opened again for business, which is eventually what happened.

00:13:18.360 I had some other options.

00:13:19.620 I consulted with a lot of different people who sort of knew the dynamic and knew my father-in-law, who's a tough, rough and tumble political guy.

00:13:26.400 And, you know, Chicago politics in many ways, those family connections, of course, you indicated that a moment ago are important.

00:13:33.900 But you've got to remember, I was not a blood relative.

00:13:36.100 I was the son-in-law.

00:13:37.380 And a lot of what he and I did were beneficial to both of us politically.

00:13:42.980 It wasn't only an act of love from his part.

00:13:46.320 In fact, I would argue there wasn't a lot of that in it.

00:13:48.340 It was more practical politics.

00:13:50.720 And so when I had to make this decision on the landfill, threats were coming my way through third parties.

00:13:55.380 He was conveying them to me because that's how these things work.

00:13:58.700 I consulted with a lot of people on what to do.

00:14:00.640 I felt deep down I knew what I was going to have to do.

00:14:03.860 But I wanted to make sure I considered all the options.

00:14:05.780 Rahm Emanuel was one of the people that spent some time with me in my campaign office discussing my options and advising me.

00:14:12.860 And I made the right decision.

00:14:13.900 I shut it down.

00:14:15.040 The problem was Megan, of course, predictably, was very angry about it and came out and called a press conference and then made an accusation that was false. 1.00

00:14:23.020 And my top political fundraiser, who shares your last name, his name was Chris Kelly, was trading board and commission appointments in exchange for $50,000 campaign contributions.

00:14:33.060 Now, that's a crime if you do a quid pro quo for a campaign contribution.

00:14:36.580 And once he did that, he unleashed the furies.

00:14:40.060 And he knew he was smart enough in politics to know that that's precisely what would happen here in Chicago.

00:14:45.440 And within a month, the federal prosecutors wanted to interview me.

00:14:48.900 Now, he retracted what he said under a threat of a lawsuit, said he had no information to believe any of that was true.

00:14:55.700 But the damage was done.

00:14:56.800 And once those furies are unleashed and those federal prosecutors put a target on you, boy, they're relentless, they're ruthless, they're remorseless, and they have unlimited power, unlimited resources, and the ability to try you over and over again, even if they can't convict you the first time.

00:15:11.480 Whatever happened with your relationship with him?

00:15:14.920 I don't know.

00:15:15.680 Is he still around?

00:15:16.880 And did your relationship survive?

00:15:18.820 Well, it was on hiatus for a long time, for many years.

00:15:24.860 I was afraid of him after that.

00:15:26.600 And it was very difficult for Patty, as you can imagine, very difficult for all of us.

00:15:29.580 Because, well, he's my father-in-law, and we have a lot of personal experience together.

00:15:33.260 And in spite of it all, I love my father-in-law.

00:15:36.860 So while I was still governor during the remaining years, which were another three, four, I kept my distance because I was frankly afraid he would try to hurt me again.

00:15:49.680 And then when calamity came into my life, and you'll talk about that as we move along in this interview, I really didn't have any contact with him.

00:15:57.160 When I left for prison, I said goodbye, and, you know, asked him, I hope you can be helpful to your grandchildren.

00:16:06.980 And, of course, he said yes, and he was.

00:16:09.300 He's got a lot of real good qualities.

00:16:11.080 Now, so after that hiatus, and I've been gone for all those years, eight years, just short of eight years, I returned home.

00:16:18.820 He's 83 years old now.

00:16:19.940 He's knocked on wood.

00:16:20.560 He's doing great.

00:16:22.200 You know, he was here for Christmas Eve.

00:16:24.180 He was here at our home for Thanksgiving.

00:16:25.980 He carves the turkey just like he used to.

00:16:29.060 And, you know, my Christian faith requires me to forgive, and I've forgiven him a long, long time ago.

00:16:33.540 I don't think he intended what he started to end up the way it did.

00:16:38.220 I think he wanted knowingly to cause me those problems.

00:16:41.040 I think he wanted the feds in my life.

00:16:43.780 I think he wanted me to feel the heat and the pain, but I don't think he wanted it to go as far as it did.

00:16:49.220 He wanted limited legal trouble.

00:16:50.760 He didn't want full-blown legal trouble where you're facing prison, sentenced to prison for 14 years kind of trouble.

00:16:56.940 That's a whole different kettle of fish, to steal a term used by the Seventh Circuit.

00:17:02.500 Okay.

00:17:02.720 So this is sort of what got the feds originally interested in you and your team and your advisors.

00:17:10.440 Unbeknownst to you, they were more interested than you knew.

00:17:13.540 I mean, they started to really focus in on you, and we now know got federal wiretaps on you.

00:17:20.000 I mean, you didn't know any of that.

00:17:21.080 You know, that's where I mentioned in the intro, they had hundreds of hours of wiretaps.

00:17:25.400 It was 500 hours of tapes of you. 0.84

00:17:29.220 And what was the first moment when that became clear to you, like, oh, shit, like the feds have been taping me for years? 0.99

00:17:37.500 Well, that's great. 0.99

00:17:38.040 It's a great question, Megan.

00:17:38.920 Let me say this.

00:17:39.740 I wasn't surprised that they were taping me.

00:17:41.660 When I was having all those conversations, I figured it was very possible that they were,

00:17:45.920 because I knew that, you know, they were chasing me and they were after me.

00:17:49.440 And when you come out of Chicago politics, you just assume, even at the lowest level, that there's those elements.

00:17:54.520 And so you hopefully want to be honest in the things that you do, but you talk on the telephone in a way where let the whole world listen to it,

00:18:01.740 because what you're talking about, you know, is legal and you're acting in good faith.

00:18:05.580 Wait a minute.

00:18:06.160 Can I just ask you something, though?

00:18:07.280 Because there's a moment on the tapes where somebody who works with you is telling you that I think the feds are taping everything,

00:18:13.080 and you do sound dumbfounded.

00:18:15.120 You do not sound like a man who's like, I know that. 0.99

00:18:17.520 I'm good.

00:18:18.020 You sound like, uh-oh.

00:18:19.920 Well, yes.

00:18:21.300 I mean, when the realization hits you that they actually were taping, then you start, in your mind,

00:18:25.620 you start thinking about, frankly, some of the nasty words you might have been saying.

00:18:29.720 I'm pretty confident, and we'll talk about the case if you want, because this unfolds,

00:18:33.900 but I was pretty confident that everything I was talking about doing was legal.

00:18:37.040 And I, to this day, insist that that's true.

00:18:39.160 But I was worried about some of the things I may have said, the swear words.

00:18:43.540 You know, I referred to Obama.

00:18:45.000 I know some of those tapes in an unflattering way.

00:18:47.820 Some other people in politics.

00:18:50.340 Well, you knew that wasn't criminal.

00:18:52.180 You knew that way.

00:18:52.780 You're doing it.

00:18:53.060 I mean, seriously, do you want people to believe that you were worried about the swear words you said

00:18:57.740 or the not nice things about Obama versus possibly getting prosecuted by Patrick Fitzgerald?

00:19:03.600 I mean, that's hard to believe.

00:19:07.860 No, that's a fair question.

00:19:09.600 No, I would say there's an element of both.

00:19:11.460 Certainly what you said about in private conversations, how some of that comes out.

00:19:15.680 But whether or not you may have inadvertently crossed the line or said something that sounds worse than it is,

00:19:21.220 of course, that's, of course, as your mind certainly does.

00:19:23.480 But I think the bigger part of it was going forward.

00:19:28.260 Holy cow. 0.89

00:19:28.840 It's like a reminder.

00:19:29.720 They are really out to get you.

00:19:31.280 And I learned the possibility that somebody who was real close to me was wearing a wire on me on the Friday before that I was arrested on Tuesday.

00:19:41.360 And so that's a wake up call as well, because it's just another indication that they are really determined to try to find something to get you on something.

00:19:48.980 Coming up, we're digging into the infamous tapes and the concept of legal or illegal bribery.

00:20:18.980 I'm interested in sort of the human aspect of this story.

00:20:37.680 I mean, did you have sleepless nights?

00:20:41.400 Were you able to eat?

00:20:42.740 Were you able to function?

00:20:44.500 Like, what was that period like?

00:20:46.400 Just that Tuesday to Friday, if you remember.

00:20:48.020 Well, that Friday to Tuesday was, yes, that was a lot more troubling than maybe some of the earlier nights.

00:20:54.700 But some of the anger that's on those tapes, when you hear, I've heard myself on those tapes that have been played publicly.

00:21:00.420 And by the way, Megan, let me just say this.

00:21:02.440 You talk about hundreds of hours of tapes and you're right, but they only played 1% of them.

00:21:06.200 And to this day, I can't get them to play all those tapes.

00:21:09.000 They wouldn't even allow me to play them in court to defend myself.

00:21:11.760 And I suspect we'll probably talk more about the case.

00:21:13.920 But I wanted every one of those tapes heard.

00:21:15.980 I wanted the full context of those conversations heard because they would show the real truth.

00:21:20.120 Okay, but let me ask you, I heard, I heard you say that a million times and we can get into the tapes and I have, I have, you know, some of the more infamous excerpts, but if that, look, and I didn't read every single moment of the trial transcript or anything like that.

00:21:32.820 But in general, I did practice a lot for 10 years.

00:21:36.500 And if you had something that was exculpatory on those tapes, meaning led to, you know, a finding of innocence, your lawyers would have played them.

00:21:43.600 Your lawyers would have been able to get them in.

00:21:45.240 The court would have allowed them in for completeness, if nothing else.

00:21:48.440 You're telling me that there's some magic bullet in those tapes that never got played.

00:21:51.600 Then your lawyers are terrible and you should have, you should have filed an appeal based on ineffective assistance of counsel.

00:21:56.580 Okay, everything you just said there is absolutely right, except one thing.

00:21:59.000 We asked for the tapes to be played at both trials, especially the second trial.

00:22:02.860 I agreed to testify at the second trial on condition that we could play the tapes.

00:22:06.460 And the judge said, yes, we could play the tapes to corroborate my testimony because I foresaw the real likely possibility that if I got up and testified to a set of conversations that I had, and if those tapes weren't there, the prosecutor would do exactly what he did.

00:22:19.160 And that is lie to the jury and tell the jury to go back to the jury room and listen to the tapes to see whether or not it corroborates with what I'm saying.

00:22:26.420 The fact is, it's all in the court record and the appellate court shockingly whitewashed it, didn't even address the issue that they wouldn't allow me to play those tapes.

00:22:34.740 And they would not allow me to play those tapes.

00:22:36.340 You're right.

00:22:36.680 There is a thing called the rule of completeness.

00:22:38.740 This is up in gold and I'm not giving it up for nothing.

00:22:40.960 They will never allow me to play the rest of that conversation.

00:22:43.940 They took snippets of conversations out of context and pieced them together.

00:22:47.280 And even by themselves, those things don't constitute crimes.

00:22:50.760 You know what, though?

00:22:51.260 Let's just jump to the, you know, cut to the chase.

00:22:53.480 That your alleged attempt to sell the vacant Obama seat, Senate seat, is not something that you were ultimately convicted of.

00:23:02.620 I mean, that conviction didn't stand.

00:23:04.340 That was thrown out.

00:23:05.320 So if that's the thing that was going to, your tapes were going to exonerate you on, la pointe is moot.

00:23:10.920 Except that I was in prison for four and a half years on that.

00:23:13.540 And I'm still known for that.

00:23:14.680 The so-called sale of the Senate seat.

00:23:16.760 You know, I hope I don't die tomorrow.

00:23:18.260 This is like a long, long list of things that you allegedly did wrong.

00:23:20.860 Things that you were convicted of doing a long, I too, for a long time, thought it was just the attempt to sell the seat.

00:23:26.000 But there's a lot of stuff.

00:23:27.320 They said that you did try for an attempted quid pro quo on, and we can go through it.

00:23:33.020 Yes.

00:23:33.580 And there was no quid pro quo.

00:23:34.960 But there was an attempt.

00:23:35.920 That's what you were charged with.

00:23:36.600 Attempt.

00:23:38.000 Right, you know.

00:23:38.620 But in order to have attempt, you have to have evidence of an express quid pro quo.

00:23:42.400 There never was that.

00:23:43.400 In fact, again.

00:23:44.020 You added the word express.

00:23:45.220 That's not true.

00:23:46.360 But it is.

00:23:46.820 That's the McCormick case, 1991.

00:23:48.060 No, I've read McCormick, 1991.

00:23:49.520 That's not what it requires.

00:23:50.700 And I read the Seventh Circuit case digesting McCormick, in which you were appealing.

00:23:54.320 And that's not right.

00:23:55.420 Well, you're the host hostess of the show, and you're a lot smarter than I am.

00:23:58.300 But I have to tell you, I mean, I know where the line is.

00:24:00.540 When you ask for a campaign contribution and you don't promise or threaten anybody directly in exchange for that, that's legal.

00:24:07.380 That's free speech.

00:24:08.140 The Seventh Circuit made very clear, in looking at your case, on your appeal, wink, wink, nod, nod, is sufficient.

00:24:15.320 No politician, most, wouldn't be dumb enough to be like, you've got to make a $50,000 donation to my campaign tomorrow, and then the day after tomorrow, I will approve the legislation that's going to help your racetrack, sir.

00:24:30.040 Okay, by the way, well, but the reality is that's exactly how the system works.

00:24:35.600 So, for example, the big drug companies contribute campaign contributions to United States senators and congressmen while they're voting on their things.

00:24:42.640 Now, as long as there isn't-

00:24:43.560 Can I just tell you, I don't disagree with that.

00:24:45.820 I don't disagree with that.

00:24:46.600 Keep going.

00:24:47.400 Right.

00:24:47.820 Are you asking me, is the system a good system?

00:24:51.260 No.

00:24:51.980 Would you argue that it's legal bribery?

00:24:54.220 Yes.

00:24:55.000 I think you can argue that.

00:24:56.460 But the line is very clear.

00:24:57.840 And in 2014, that Citizens United case, the Supreme Court reaffirmed that standard in McCormick, saying the only way you would limit compelling, the only compelling interest to limit free speech, because that's what fundraising is.

00:25:10.220 They call it free speech, this so-called quid pro quo corruption.

00:25:14.640 Knowing where the line was, we never promised anything, we never threatened anybody.

00:25:18.460 They upheld three fundraising requests where I received nothing after they vacated the Senate.

00:25:24.360 Right, but it was an attempt.

00:25:25.720 You always say that.

00:25:26.960 I didn't get any money, and I agree.

00:25:28.720 Based on what I've read, you didn't.

00:25:29.940 But that's not relevant.

00:25:31.660 That's a dodge.

00:25:32.240 That's a red herring.

00:25:33.600 You attempted to get things.

00:25:35.260 You attempted to get money in your coffers in exchange for your public duties.

00:25:38.900 And that is illegal.

00:25:40.780 And I'm not going to dispute with you that you were singled out and that a lot of people, and your example of the drug companies is a great one, very apt.

00:25:49.280 They do buy favors all the time from politicians who are also corrupt.

00:25:53.000 But that doesn't excuse what you did.

00:25:56.700 Megan, I think the world of you, and I want to talk, I hope we can, as this unfolds.

00:26:01.140 Of course, we can disagree.

00:26:02.000 I don't hold it against you.

00:26:03.400 I have no personal stake in this.

00:26:04.680 I'm just giving you the way I see it as a lawyer.

00:26:06.500 Yes, but again, the law is you can ask for campaign contributions while something's pending, before something's pending, or after something's pending, so long as you never promise anything or threaten anybody.

00:26:19.880 I knew where that line was.

00:26:21.320 I didn't cross it.

00:26:22.240 They convicted me by moving the line at a second trial.

00:26:25.400 The appellate court upheld it, I believe, because the political consequences were so significant, because someone's going down.

00:26:31.280 Either I'm going down, or those federal prosecutors, those corrupt federal prosecutors who did to me what they tried to do to President Trump, they would go down because they hijacked a governor twice elected by the people.

00:26:41.900 That's my firm belief.

00:26:43.860 And I know that the trial, if you were there and saw it, if you read our appellate brief, and I wouldn't ask you to do it, you have too much more important things to do.

00:26:53.180 But I knew where the line was, I knew they were chasing me, I wasn't that stupid, and they moved the line and I ended up going to prison largely because I fought back and I was defiant every step of the way, wouldn't take any deals that were being dangled in front of me.

00:27:08.340 I mean, I get that's true.

00:27:09.360 And I certainly believe that you did not foresee a conviction, a conviction, your behavior backs that up.

00:27:15.420 But I have to be honest with my audience, I think they got you dead to rights, I think you did do it, I think you were singled out, but I mean, having watched a lot of the trial and covered it at the time, as an attorney and a journalist, when you were going through it, and then buffing back up on the whole case for this interview, they got you. 0.96

00:27:34.940 I mean, they got you for an attempt, you didn't get the money because you were actually arrested before all the shit could go down.

00:27:40.220 But you were striking deals, and I'll just give a couple of examples, these are a couple cited by the Seventh Circuit, but there was number one, lobbyists for Children Memorial Hospital saw an increase in reimbursement rates for Medicaid patients, that was in your control as the governor, and you said you would approve an extra $8 to $10 million of reimbursements in exchange for a, quote, campaign contribution of $50,000. 0.80

00:28:00.100 And initially, you approved that rate increase that they wanted, but then you rescinded it when you were waiting for the contribution, then you got arrested before any money changed hands.

00:28:10.860 Then there was another situation with the state legislature approving an extension of a program that taxed casinos, and that tax would help racetracks.

00:28:18.340 It was for the benefit of racetracks, which didn't do as well in Illinois.

00:28:20.780 But before you could sign the bill, you attempted to ensure that a guy named John Johnston, who owned interest in two of the racetracks, fulfilled a, quote, $100,000 campaign pledge, and you had intermediaries inform Johnston that the bill would not be signed until your money arrived.

00:28:39.280 And again, you were arrested before you could sign the bill and before he signed the check.

00:28:42.260 Now, that is what the jury so found.

00:28:44.860 Your defense was presented.

00:28:46.500 They rejected it.

00:28:47.820 The jury found that those facts, as I just read them, are true.

00:28:51.160 That's it.

00:28:51.800 That is unlawful behavior under Illinois and federal law.

00:28:56.280 If those facts, as you recite them, were as you recited them, were true, that would be unlawful behavior.

00:29:02.120 But there's a lot of misinformation in there.

00:29:02.740 Do you dispute that that's what the jury found?

00:29:05.160 Pardon me?

00:29:06.300 Do you dispute that that is what the jury so found?

00:29:09.380 No, no, the jury certainly did find it.

00:29:11.280 And the jury found it because they didn't have to prove a quid pro quo where that was said, that I asked for a $50,000 campaign contribution in exchange for the reimbursement to the doctors of the children's hospital.

00:29:25.480 That's factually inaccurate.

00:29:27.520 I agreed to send $8 million to the children's hospital.

00:29:30.620 That was a hospital that I cared a lot about.

00:29:33.180 I did this because the head of the hospital called me.

00:29:36.820 I was cutting $2 billion in increases in the state budget because I have a responsibility as governor to balance the budget.

00:29:42.780 I told him that they would get the money after the first of the year because my budget people told me I'd be able to find $8 million to help them.

00:29:50.060 Five days later, I asked my brother, who was doing fundraising for me, to see if they'll do a fundraiser for me.

00:29:56.300 I was because they had raised money for me before.

00:29:59.060 My brother made a polite phone call to the director, asked him, could you raise?

00:30:02.160 I think he asked him for $25,000, and that was it, and the guy said, I don't know, and the prosecutor told the jury that that ask was the shakedown.

00:30:11.000 That is not a crime.

00:30:12.580 That is not the standard, and that prosecutor's a liar, so that's the facts on that case.

00:30:18.780 The other one, and by the way, they got their money, and I never got campaign contributions, and I'm happy I didn't.

00:30:23.920 Having said that, that horse racing one, I have 60 days to act on a bill.

00:30:28.460 There were a lot of dynamics going on in state government at that time.

00:30:31.840 I was fighting with the Democratic House Speaker over all kinds of different issues.

00:30:36.620 I found creative ways to use my executive authority as governor to rewrite some of their bills and make it work for people.

00:30:43.780 Because I was doing that, he started doing things in the veto session on some of my bills, and therefore I was careful before I signed any bill.

00:30:51.960 I said, it's on the tapes. I'm not going to act on any of these bills until I see them all together to see whether or not there's any shenanigans going on and people rewriting some of the laws that I'm for or not for.

00:31:03.440 Long and the short of it is that horse racing bill was one of them.

00:31:06.300 Nine days into it, I did nothing on it, one way or the other.

00:31:09.780 We were asking for campaign contributions from those people.

00:31:12.020 They had contributed to me before.

00:31:13.380 They had held a fundraiser for some of the state senators at the same time.

00:31:16.640 I did nothing and never promised or threatened them.

00:31:19.760 But anyway, the jury made the decision, I believe, because the jury instruction was merely asking, even without a promise or a threat, because they were not required to prove that, was the crime.

00:31:31.860 And so the jury made the right decision based upon the unlawful standard that they were asked to judge me on.

00:31:38.900 That's what I understand your skepticism.

00:31:41.400 Yeah, no, I get it.

00:31:42.220 And listen, I think you're misreading McCormick.

00:31:43.860 I think the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with me that the standard applied by the court was totally fine and that wink, wink, nod, nod is enough.

00:31:51.420 It does not have to be explicit.

00:31:52.640 That's not in the law.

00:31:53.380 It's never been the law.

00:31:54.400 It's requiring too much.

00:31:56.260 There's a wider net that gets corrupt politicians for good reason.

00:31:59.560 And the U.S. Supreme Court sided with the Seventh Circuit and the jury twice.

00:32:04.620 So, I mean, they refused to get involved.

00:32:06.980 You made these arguments and they were all rejected.

00:32:08.980 So that's that's the legal end of it.

00:32:11.320 And I get it.

00:32:12.180 OK, so I've conceded to you that I think you were singled out, but I'm I'm in no way going to miss me, mislead my audience, that you're some victim who was wrongly convicted of doing something that you didn't do.

00:32:23.200 Because I think they I'm just telling you, I think they got you.

00:32:26.180 And that's why you went to prison.

00:32:27.940 So let's just jump back.

00:32:29.240 Thank you, Megan.

00:32:29.760 I did all those things.

00:32:30.860 I said those things, but they're not crimes other than some of the specific facts they twisted and changed.

00:32:35.640 So I appreciate your position and I'm not going to commit you.

00:32:39.600 I understand all that.

00:32:40.720 And it's been a long, long time and I'm not going to be able to undo that history.

00:32:44.520 Hopefully I'll do good works in the future to change my obituary.

00:32:47.540 Well, look, you know.

00:32:48.440 Oh, you can't worry about that.

00:32:49.700 You really can't.

00:32:51.160 You can't think about that.

00:32:52.560 I guess when you're a politician, you think about that stuff.

00:32:54.580 But all you can worry about is living your life well.

00:32:57.040 Right.

00:32:57.240 And being good to the people around you.

00:32:58.480 And if you've done wrong, trying to do better, you know, every day thereafter.

00:33:02.600 And as far as I can tell, you're doing that.

00:33:04.320 I mean, I see a man now who is who really has nothing left to lose and who is trying to make the most of the time you have left, trying to be good to your family, trying to need to go back out to the Chicago constituents and make friends and sort of build alliances.

00:33:21.040 And I don't know what that's toward.

00:33:22.840 But it's one of the very fascinating things about you, like whether there will be an act two in the political Rod Blagojevich.

00:33:28.700 But let's let's hold that.

00:33:29.780 I don't want to get to that yet.

00:33:32.820 More with Blago coming up on the tape heard around the world.

00:33:43.900 So, OK, let's go back to the trauma of this of this case, because I do want to talk about sort of the personal aspect of it. 0.95

00:33:50.100 And I guess I should play the fucking golden because I know you're comfortable with it. 0.90

00:33:55.520 I've seen you do the the birthday phone calls, saying it to people where they pay you 80 bucks for calling up. 0.98

00:34:01.400 But this is the this is sort of the clip that got so much play.

00:34:06.040 It's you talking about the open Barack Obama Senate seat and you're the governor.

00:34:10.200 You get to fill it.

00:34:11.620 And originally it was alleged that you were trying to, quote, sell the seat.

00:34:14.800 I'm going to play the longer soundbite.

00:34:16.080 The soundbite one that gives a little of the lead up to the moment.

00:34:19.540 Listen, I told my nephew, Alex, he just turned 26 today.

00:34:23.440 I said, Alex, you know, I call him for his birthday.

00:34:25.420 And I said, it's just too bad you're not four years older because I could have given you a U.S.

00:34:29.040 Senate seat for your birthday.

00:34:31.340 Yeah.

00:34:32.180 You know what I mean? 0.98

00:34:33.760 I mean, I've got this thing and it's fucking golden. 0.99

00:34:39.200 And I'm just not giving it up for fucking nothing. 0.97

00:34:41.900 So that was the tape heard around the world and the one that would become emblematic of the entire prosecution. 0.97

00:34:48.660 And again, I should underscore for the audience that that that count did not live for a variety of reasons, even though I understand you were convicted on it.

00:34:57.560 But it was thrown out ultimately by some sort.

00:34:59.780 So, I mean, can you explain what was really happening in that moment?

00:35:03.380 Because they were saying you're trying to sell the seat.

00:35:05.340 And you say what?

00:35:06.560 Well, I remember that vividly, of course.

00:35:08.240 Right.

00:35:08.460 I'm known for that.

00:35:09.700 Real quick, if I could just tell you something.

00:35:11.220 When I was teaching history in prison, that was my first my second job there.

00:35:15.680 I was a tutor teaching Civil War history and World War Two history.

00:35:18.960 And I remember starting out my first class with my inmates.

00:35:23.920 And by the way, it sold out.

00:35:25.580 I had a full house of students.

00:35:28.580 But I talked about how, you know, Abraham Lincoln is known for so many beautiful things that he said, you know, with malice torn on with charity for all four score and seven years ago, a house divided against itself cannot stand.

00:35:38.720 Franklin Roosevelt is known for there's nothing to fear but fear itself.

00:35:42.980 President Kennedy asked not what your country can do for you.

00:35:46.300 Ask what you can do for your country.

00:35:47.500 President Reagan, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

00:35:51.180 Obama, Barack Obama for hope and change.

00:35:54.000 Me, this is up in gold and I'm not giving it up for nothing.

00:35:57.120 So I'm stuck with that.

00:35:59.200 I'm known for that.

00:36:00.020 Unfortunately, you know, I remember it all too well.

00:36:03.800 And it was the day after the election.

00:36:05.600 President Obama, President-elect Obama, historic.

00:36:08.800 First time we elected an African-American president.

00:36:11.100 I was the first governor to endorse him.

00:36:12.640 We were all downtown Chicago for that historic event.

00:36:15.360 It was a magical night and a labor boss, a union guy by the name of Tom Balinov, came up to me backstage and said that, quote unquote, Barack called me last night.

00:36:25.140 I was pumping gas and he asked me if I'd come to you because he wants Valerie Jarrett to be the United States senator.

00:36:30.500 And I was asked to come and see, talk to you, see what you want.

00:36:34.680 Can I call you tomorrow and set up an appointment?

00:36:36.760 And I said, sure.

00:36:37.900 So the very next day, Obama's president-elect.

00:36:41.160 And I went out jogging in the late morning.

00:36:45.840 It was wintertime.

00:36:47.320 It was November.

00:36:48.260 It was right, November 6th or something.

00:36:50.680 Wednesday.

00:36:51.680 I came back.

00:36:52.600 I remember I was still cooling down from the run and I was laying on the floor in our family room talking on the phone to one of my aides.

00:37:00.980 And we were having that conversation that you just played.

00:37:03.560 And and then I said that and I said that in the context of we can make a political deal here and let's see what we can get.

00:37:11.720 And when I said I'm not giving this up or nothing, that was sort of in response to some people who were saying just give Obama whatever he wants.

00:37:19.400 Don't make any deals.

00:37:20.360 Just make him happy.

00:37:21.580 And my position was, you know, they offered to work something out that wasn't just going to give it to him for nothing.

00:37:27.560 So but whatever it was, was going to have to be legal.

00:37:29.800 So but that was that's sort of the centerpiece of pretty much all of my troubles.

00:37:35.420 And when calamity came down, like it did like a whirlwind, that was the one tape that was played over and over again.

00:37:41.800 And, you know, I'm known for that.

00:37:43.600 Well, it's kind of interesting because what the court ultimately found was one politician saying, you know, I'll give you I'll give you a Valerie Jarrett as the next senator from Illinois.

00:37:55.800 If you give me a cabinet position in your new presidential administration, that's not illegal, that that's done.

00:38:03.140 That kind of horse trading is done all the time by politicians who have different stakes in their minds on different positions.

00:38:11.680 And they they were not prepared to recognize that kind of horse trading as a crime, which is I don't think much of the public knows.

00:38:20.160 I think they hear that tape.

00:38:21.140 They say, oh, that's wrong.

00:38:22.500 If you're talking about trading one seat for another one position for an advancement on the political front, you know, in terms of a position, it's not as problematic as give me 50 grand and I'll approve this legislation that'll help you.

00:38:36.160 That's now you're in much murkier waters.

00:38:39.400 But as you point out, you're kind of known for this.

00:38:42.400 And I wonder whether because, you know, the.

00:38:44.880 My impression in reading the court papers is they make Obama and his team come out as squeaky clean.

00:38:49.640 And I just wondered, are they squeaky clean or is it this is just a legal system that's what that wants to portray Obama and his team as squeaky clean, like we'll have nothing to do with him.

00:38:58.740 We're not going to bargain.

00:38:59.500 We're not talking to him.

00:39:00.380 No.

00:39:00.880 And I realize you were already sort of under investigation.

00:39:03.040 They may have known that.

00:39:04.520 But what's the truth?

00:39:06.980 Well, no, my troubles on those tapes really began with that conversation and with the discussions about making a deal on the Senate seat.

00:39:17.480 And they began taping me, I think, on the 30th of October.

00:39:21.620 That conversation was maybe less than a week later.

00:39:25.980 But you were under investigation for years prior to that, thanks to the whole Mel situation we discussed.

00:39:30.980 I'm just saying maybe Obama was squeaky clean.

00:39:33.560 And my question is, do you think he knew about the FBI investigation or maybe he really was squeaky clean?

00:39:38.980 And they were like, we don't we don't cut deals like this.

00:39:42.040 No, I'm so glad you brought that up because there's a fuller story behind the FBI investigations.

00:39:45.740 They were not only interested in me because of what Mel's accusation, my father-in-law's accusations were.

00:39:50.920 There was a guy by the name of Tony Rescoe.

00:39:52.780 Yeah.

00:39:52.980 I think you know the name.

00:39:53.880 Yeah.

00:39:54.240 That's how you first got dragged into it over and over in the news.

00:39:57.880 Yes.

00:39:58.220 And Rescoe was very close to President Obama and very close to me, closer to Obama than to me.

00:40:03.740 In fact, I met Obama through Rescoe.

00:40:05.920 Rescoe was the guy that bought Obama the land next to the mansion that he bought after he was elected to the United States Senate.

00:40:12.420 You may have some recollection of that.

00:40:15.420 They were chasing Rescoe.

00:40:16.840 Rescoe did some things that were wrong involving one of my agencies.

00:40:21.080 I had nothing to do with any of that, but he was convicted months before those FBI tapes went on me.

00:40:28.420 My big fear was Rescoe.

00:40:29.820 My fear was, were they going to try to threaten him and make him lie about me so that he gets a lighter sentence?

00:40:36.420 And after he was convicted, he sent a letter to the federal sentencing judge saying that the federal prosecutors were trying to get him to lie about Senator Obama and Governor Blagojevich, both of us.

00:40:46.540 And so Obama and I were both sort of tonied up, if you want to talk in the street vernacular, and we had that problem politically.

00:40:55.080 I believe, and I can't, I don't have, I don't know that I can prove this, but I have a strong belief that a lot of my troubles were compounded by the fact that the Obama political apparatus was dumping Rescoe on me.

00:41:09.360 And it became, he was more my problem than Obama's problem.

00:41:13.260 He was running for high office, be president of the United States.

00:41:15.980 The media treated him in a way that was unusual.

00:41:19.360 I think they were very kind to him.

00:41:21.300 And I was stuck wearing Rescoe more than Obama.

00:41:24.280 But when he sent that letter to the sentencing judge, it seemed like my troubles were over and his were as well.

00:41:30.740 But then we had the problems with those telephone calls.

00:41:33.300 And then we had election night, and then the guy came to me to make the deal.

00:41:37.320 So if you're asking me, do I feel like Obama was more pristine than me?

00:41:42.140 The answer is no.

00:41:43.360 Now, you know, you disagree with my characterization of what happened to me on the cases.

00:41:47.040 But I firmly believe Obama and I were pretty much following the same routine practices in politics and government.

00:41:53.480 And then when my troubles came, politically, Obama saw the problem for him and decided to allow me to sink or swim on my own and went his own way to protect himself.

00:42:04.840 Politics is a rough and tumble business.

00:42:06.660 It's very understandable, very predictable.

00:42:10.040 And I think he was protecting himself politically.

00:42:13.480 And I was left pretty much on a sinking ship.

00:42:17.600 You know, the Titanic was going down.

00:42:19.840 I was the captain of the ship.

00:42:20.980 And everybody else jumped off of it.

00:42:22.360 And that's how I interpret what happened with Obama.

00:42:24.920 And I think that's why among the reasons why he when he had an opportunity to actually do what President Trump ultimately did, he chose not to do it.

00:42:34.240 OK, so that's fascinating because he did have the chance to commute your sentence.

00:42:38.140 And just so the audience understands, a pardon is when they basically wipe away the crime altogether and you no longer have to say that you were a convicted felon.

00:42:46.100 But a commutation is basically you've suffered enough.

00:42:49.760 I'm ending your prison term now, notwithstanding what the what the sentence was.

00:42:53.800 And that's what Trump gave you, a commutation.

00:42:55.820 And your family had asked President Obama for a commutation.

00:43:00.000 And your young daughter wrote this, you know, heart wrenching letter.

00:43:04.460 Your whole family had pushed for him to give you a commutation first time around.

00:43:08.780 No.

00:43:09.560 OK, then he gets reelected.

00:43:11.400 Now he's safe.

00:43:12.460 Right.

00:43:12.880 You can't you can't be president three times in a row.

00:43:15.400 So he's in a second term.

00:43:16.420 So now they go back to him and say, now, now can we have it still?

00:43:19.700 No.

00:43:20.580 And your daughter wrote him a scathing letter after he rejected it, saying, you know, you're

00:43:25.980 you're pardoning F.A.L.N.

00:43:29.280 terrorists like you're you're issuing pardons and commutations of people who have committed

00:43:35.040 violent crimes.

00:43:36.820 But you're not going to shorten the sentence of my dad, who at this point, you know, you'd

00:43:41.540 been in prison five or six years, I guess.

00:43:44.160 What did you make of that?

00:43:44.960 Well, it was six and a half years by then.

00:43:47.220 And well, there's a couple of things.

00:43:49.200 First of all, we didn't ask him for the commutation only one time.

00:43:52.460 We didn't ask him before his reelection that I understood his politics.

00:43:56.180 And I wasn't going to even remotely think about asking for that at that time.

00:43:59.980 I was pretty much stuck.

00:44:01.300 And frankly, Megan, I thought I'd get relief from the courts and I was able to get partial

00:44:06.140 relief, but not what I fully expected and was hoping for.

00:44:09.680 I was fearful I wasn't going to get it.

00:44:12.120 But what I felt I was entitled to, having said all of that.

00:44:14.960 There I was six and a half years into it.

00:44:17.120 And we, you know, I understood and recognized President Obama's political situation because

00:44:21.420 he's involved in my case.

00:44:23.800 And so rather than ask him to just let me go home when he's leaving Washington in January

00:44:29.680 of 2021, we asked him to just cut the sentence in half from 14 years to seven years.

00:44:35.780 My sentence is higher than anybody's.

00:44:37.600 Unlike everybody else who was a governor, I never did get it, take a penny.

00:44:42.100 It was politics.

00:44:43.300 It wasn't personal corruption.

00:44:45.320 I mean, it's those fundraising issues that you're talking about.

00:44:47.560 And that I had done more time in prison.

00:44:51.520 Well, no one's ever done time in prison, a politician, for only fundraising infractions

00:45:00.080 alone.

00:45:00.760 There's always something else.

00:45:02.460 So we thought we had a real, a very strong case from a standpoint of fairness.

00:45:08.740 And I also had the opportunity because I've been blessed and fortunate, unlike a lot of

00:45:14.020 my other colleagues, 151,000 other federal inmates, I was probably one of the only ones

00:45:17.960 who could actually get his paperwork before the president of the United States.

00:45:21.600 So I was fortunate and lucky that way.

00:45:23.640 And David Axelrod, he used to work for me.

00:45:25.660 It was very close to President Obama.

00:45:27.180 He was his media consultant.

00:45:28.780 Was actually delivering those letters that my daughters wrote to President Obama, same age

00:45:33.240 as his two beautiful young daughters, um, and asking him joined by democratic members

00:45:39.620 of Congress from Illinois and others who I knew in politics, urging him to not send me

00:45:44.960 home when he goes home, but cut my sentence in half to seven years.

00:45:48.020 And therefore, when he leaves the white house, um, you know, the big house, yes, I'll limp 0.56

00:45:54.740 out of the big house six months later or eight months later in October.

00:45:58.340 So this way it wouldn't be politically embarrassing to him or change the messaging for the, from

00:46:03.240 a media point of view.

00:46:04.400 And when he decided to allow the FAL and terrorists, and then, uh, uh, a woman by the name of Chelsea 0.88

00:46:11.260 Manning, who used to be Bradley Manning, who was convicted of treason when he let them

00:46:15.680 out, I thought our chances were pretty good that I might actually finally get to go home,

00:46:19.980 but he passed me by.

00:46:21.780 And, and, um, and then moments after that, maybe the day or so after I'm sweeping floors,

00:46:26.400 that was one of my jobs in prison of the many jobs I had, one of my colleagues came up to

00:46:30.160 me.

00:46:30.240 They used to, they called me gov in prison and he said, Hey, gov, what about your buddy

00:46:34.200 Obama?

00:46:34.760 Now he'm passing you by.

00:46:36.860 And my answer to him was, I'm never voting for that guy again.

00:46:41.540 Um, so.

00:46:42.920 And neither is your daughter. 0.74

00:46:44.000 Uh, your daughter writes this letter.

00:46:46.880 Um, this is from, this is from, uh, Amy, right?

00:46:49.680 She's your older daughter.

00:46:50.580 Yes.

00:46:50.660 Uh, and in, so what, how old is she now? 0.99

00:46:54.540 Well, she's 25 now.

00:46:56.060 25 now.

00:46:56.540 Okay.

00:46:56.740 So she was a few years younger because this is January, 2017.

00:47:00.080 And she writes in part, um, dear Barack Obama, if you didn't notice, I did not refer to you

00:47:05.640 as Mr.

00:47:06.160 President this time.

00:47:07.300 That's because you've lost my respect.

00:47:09.120 You've broken my heart once again, and you've betrayed the concept of justice, just like many

00:47:13.480 other heartless individuals have done before you.

00:47:15.800 I thought you were different.

00:47:17.360 I thought you had a moral compass. 0.99

00:47:18.640 Turns out you're just like the rest, selfish and spineless. 0.85

00:47:23.020 And she goes on to say, you didn't have to pardon him. 0.93

00:47:25.460 Only commute the sentence.

00:47:27.360 Um, and, and said, she says, I, I want more than anything to have faith, but I don't think

00:47:32.700 I know how, if there was a God and all powerful, all good and all knowing God, my family would

00:47:38.280 not have had to endure this trauma.

00:47:42.400 It really makes me feel for her.

00:47:44.200 I feel like it makes me mad at you.

00:47:46.280 It makes me a little mad at Barack Obama.

00:47:49.460 I mean, certainly no one would argue that she did anything wrong.

00:47:52.840 Yeah.

00:47:53.020 I mean, you know that, you know, that illegal or not illegal or just questionable or on

00:47:57.600 the line.

00:47:59.240 Yeah.

00:47:59.700 You did cause her a lot of trauma.

00:48:02.060 That's gotta be tough to shoulder.

00:48:04.340 Well, that's the hardest part of it.

00:48:05.620 What, what happens to your children in something like this and what they've gone through.

00:48:08.860 Both of them are little girls.

00:48:10.340 They're Amy's 25. 0.72

00:48:12.520 She would have been back in 2000 and what, 17, she would have been 20. 0.87

00:48:17.860 Right.

00:48:18.240 And then our younger daughter, Annie, she's 18.

00:48:20.900 She was eight years old when I left home.

00:48:22.140 So I, I didn't really see her grow up.

00:48:24.760 Um, but they both have, have endured a great deal.

00:48:27.600 Now, Patty's done a wonderful job raising them by herself. 0.83

00:48:30.760 Both are my little ones at a real good college.

00:48:34.300 And my older one graduated from a real good college.

00:48:36.560 She's in graduate school now.

00:48:37.980 You know, she's a very, her politics is sort of like AOC politics. 0.97

00:48:41.840 So when she writes that letter to Obama, that's coming from the, from a Bernie Sanders voter.

00:48:46.700 Right.

00:48:47.140 Wow.

00:48:47.560 Um, but, uh, no, the hardest part of that is what they, what happens to your children.

00:48:53.420 And, you know, I had all that time in prison, 2,896 days to do a lot of thinking and reflecting.

00:48:59.960 And I would try to discipline myself and, and stay strong because I had to be strong for no other

00:49:04.820 reason for them and for my wife.

00:49:06.720 But I would have moments late at night.

00:49:10.360 Sometimes I'd look through the window.

00:49:12.060 I, my home was a six foot, but eight foot prison cell for the first 32 months.

00:49:15.440 I'd look through the window and I'd follow the light of a passing plane flying overhead

00:49:19.140 and imagine myself on that plane with my kids and my wife going anywhere as long as I wasn't

00:49:23.100 where I was.

00:49:24.060 But I would also ask myself, did I let pride get, be too caught?

00:49:27.860 Was I too caught up in the pride fighting back the way I was?

00:49:31.080 I still am.

00:49:31.860 As you see, should I have just cut my losses for them?

00:49:35.360 Because I think I probably could have gotten 18 months, two years.

00:49:38.300 They were floating that after they failed to convict me at a first trial.

00:49:41.660 And, uh, I just wouldn't even hear of it because I was so certain that I was on the right side

00:49:46.680 of the line and didn't do anything wrong.

00:49:48.220 And I was certain, still am, that those are corrupt prosecutors and they belong in prison.

00:49:52.080 So I couldn't give in.

00:49:53.240 And yet my kids are suffering and are hurt to this day.

00:49:56.520 They have wounds.

00:49:57.920 And yeah, you ask yourself, did you let your pride get in the way of falling into the sword

00:50:05.280 for your children to make it easier for them, less hard for them?

00:50:07.840 I still ask myself that.

00:50:09.500 I don't know that I have the answer.

00:50:10.820 There is footage in being Blago of you on the day you had to go to prison, leaving your family.

00:50:20.280 Oh, I have to tell you, that was hard to watch and obviously much harder to actually live.

00:50:27.100 I want to ask you about that and about, about saying goodbye, about what prison was like,

00:50:32.500 um, about the Democratic Party today and why you call yourself a Trumpocrat.

00:50:38.300 Um, certainly after his commutation, that was more likely, but you've known each other for a long time.

00:50:42.580 Going to pick it up there, squeeze in a quick break and, uh, so many more interesting places

00:50:47.320 to go with Rod Blagojevich.

00:50:49.560 Don't go away.

00:50:50.140 One thing I wanted to circle back to on the whole legal dealings was, uh, the, the person who the

00:51:01.680 newly elected Obama administration allegedly wanted to go into Obama's old seat, as at least so far

00:51:09.240 as you were told was Valerie Jarrett.

00:51:11.680 And something interesting came out in the course of the trial, or at least what I read in the

00:51:16.240 transcripts was you had been told by Rahm Emanuel, that's who Obama wants.

00:51:21.120 He wants you to appoint Valerie Jarrett, Valerie Jarrett.

00:51:23.300 And you weren't all that excited about her.

00:51:25.760 Um, and then it turned out that it wasn't Obama who wanted you to appoint Valerie Jarrett

00:51:32.760 to that Senate seat.

00:51:34.720 Tell us what the real story was.

00:51:36.880 Well, I'm not sure that I know exactly what the real story was.

00:51:39.060 I know a lot of people seem to think, and I would include myself in that.

00:51:42.420 And it's really hard to say because, you know, as you, as an attorney, and you clearly know

00:51:46.600 a lot about the criminal law, um, there's these things called 302s when, uh, the FBI will

00:51:54.860 take, uh, will interview people and they write these 302s, FBI interviews, state witness statements.

00:52:00.560 And they took the witness statement of president elect Obama and the defendant being me is entitled

00:52:07.800 to get all of the evidence that's relevant to his or her defense, including witness statements

00:52:12.860 from people who are relevant.

00:52:14.200 President Obama was central to this because he began the conversations on the Senate seat

00:52:18.440 by sending an emissary to me to make a deal.

00:52:21.300 To this day, we still haven't been able to get those 302s.

00:52:24.240 They won't give it to us.

00:52:25.420 We couldn't use those as part of my defense at both trials.

00:52:28.220 And there may be a contradiction between the testimony of the union boss that I talked

00:52:32.820 about, the guy by the name of Tom Balinoff, who had two trials testified that Obama sent

00:52:37.880 him to me, uh, to approach me about Valerie Jarrett and that he wanted to come and see me and

00:52:44.680 that we would then discuss that issue.

00:52:47.720 Um, Obama denies that publicly when all of this was swirling in the very beginning of the

00:52:54.320 storm, he was asked about whether he had ever did that.

00:52:57.600 And he said, no, now what he says on his 302s, which is, as you know, if you lie to the

00:53:03.360 FBI, that's a crime. 0.76

00:53:05.360 So what he says on that, on those 302s, we don't have the answer.

00:53:09.320 Did he contradict himself?

00:53:11.180 Did he contradict his public statement or did he corroborate his public statement?

00:53:15.500 If he corroborated his public statement.

00:53:16.900 Isn't there something right about, about what, at least according to the transcript I read

00:53:21.020 of you in 2008 saying it was actually Rahm Emanuel who wanted Valerie Jarrett.

00:53:26.580 He was saying it was president Obama, president elect Obama, but really it was him.

00:53:31.320 It was Rahm Emanuel who wanted her there because he was looking to eliminate a rival from the

00:53:37.520 White House.

00:53:37.940 He wanted her turfed over to this temporary Senate seat and, uh, was trying to sort of

00:53:43.280 representing, oh, this, this came from Obama.

00:53:45.560 Meanwhile, it was good old Rahm dead fish Emanuel.

00:53:49.240 That's my belief.

00:53:50.720 And that's why I think we don't, we can't get the president Obama's 302s.

00:53:55.520 No, I think this could very well have been Rahm that engineered the whole thing precisely 0.95

00:53:59.820 by the motivation you indicated, which is to be closer to the King and Michelle Obama and

00:54:06.840 Valerie Jarrett are very, very close.

00:54:08.900 I think Rahm saw a rival in the White House, um, when it came to the ear of the president

00:54:15.080 and he wanted to be closer to the King.

00:54:16.900 And best way to do that was to kick Valerie Jarrett upstairs and put her in the United States 1.00

00:54:22.060 Senate and therefore came to me to do that.

00:54:24.640 That's what some people believe.

00:54:26.400 I tend to think that happened, but I don't know for sure.

00:54:28.940 I know what that union boss told me, pardon me?

00:54:31.620 You knew him a long time, Rahm Emanuel, as you pointed out earlier, what do you think

00:54:34.640 of him?

00:54:36.000 Well, he's a, he's a real hardworking guy.

00:54:38.240 He's really smart.

00:54:39.420 He's really tough.

00:54:40.320 He's very ruthless. 0.99

00:54:41.980 Um, and he would stab you in the back if he could, if it served his interest.

00:54:46.920 So, you know, I actually had a good relationship with him and worked well with him.

00:54:51.420 And there's a part of me, I know I'm going to kick myself for saying this, that I, there's

00:54:55.460 a part of me that I kind of like about him because he's a guy who's,

00:54:58.940 part of what Teddy Roosevelt called the fellowship of the doers.

00:55:01.360 He gets things done.

00:55:02.440 And a lot of people in politics don't, they just give speeches and promises they can't

00:55:06.200 keep or don't intend to keep.

00:55:07.460 He's actually a guy who can get things done.

00:55:09.500 So it was good when I was in politics with him because I could rely on him to actually

00:55:13.120 do things.

00:55:13.900 He's very smart, very political.

00:55:16.120 He's got good political instincts.

00:55:17.380 I would say he's overly, he's too political, but in spite of that, he's also a ruthless

00:55:22.200 guy.

00:55:22.680 And do I think he would sell me out in a heartbeat if it benefited him politically?

00:55:26.260 Of course I do.

00:55:27.560 But I knew that even before this happened. 0.99

00:55:30.240 Much prefer the ones who will stab you in the front.

00:55:32.320 Honestly, the same is true in media. 0.99

00:55:33.920 Much rather get stabbed right in the front.

00:55:35.500 And to be honest, like having worked at a bunch of places, that's how Fox News will do it. 0.98

00:55:39.040 They'll stab you in the front and they'll stand there and they'll wait for your response.

00:55:41.640 And that's the way it ought to be done. 0.92

00:55:43.380 I wish I could say the same for network news, which is much more fascinating with stabbing 0.81

00:55:48.100 you in the back. 0.98

00:55:48.660 Or I think the saying is like, somebody once said to me something like, CBS will stab you 0.99

00:55:53.460 in the front. 0.99

00:55:54.520 ABC News will stab you in the back. 0.99

00:55:56.200 And NBC News will just walk away as you collapse into a bloody heap. 0.98

00:56:00.740 I watched that unfold when I was gone.

00:56:06.280 I want to say this real quick, Megan, about you, because there I was in November, December

00:56:10.560 2016, President-elect Obama, I mean, President Trump just won, historic.

00:56:15.600 I was telling all of my inmates he was going to win.

00:56:17.780 And I wouldn't go into that or not go into that.

00:56:19.660 But I hadn't watched you on television because I had been gone all those years.

00:56:24.560 And then when my troubles came, I wasn't watching any of it.

00:56:27.480 Um, and so I discovered you and you were being interviewed on Fox TV with some of your colleagues.

00:56:32.320 You were just leaving to go to NBC and you were taught, you were promoting a book called

00:56:36.060 Settle for More.

00:56:37.320 And you talked about your personal story with your father, losing your dad.

00:56:40.840 And it was really moving to me.

00:56:42.380 And I was inspired by your story, Embrace Adversity, to send my daughters your book.

00:56:48.660 And I remember calling vividly, calling my wife on her nightly calls.

00:56:52.640 They limit you on the time you can talk.

00:56:54.220 Urging her to find whatever money I might have left somewhere, because I wanted to buy

00:56:58.400 my two daughters your book for Christmas, because they were little girls who lost their

00:57:03.080 dad.

00:57:03.800 But unlike you, your dad wasn't going to come home.

00:57:06.320 They had a chance for their dad to come home.

00:57:08.320 But look what you made of yourself and how you fought through the adversity.

00:57:11.220 You're an inspirational figure.

00:57:12.860 No, I really did this.

00:57:14.020 And they got those books.

00:57:16.940 And, oh, I'm going to send them a signed copy now.

00:57:18.980 They can throw that copy away.

00:57:20.480 I'll send them a signed copy, both of the girls.

00:57:22.060 And, you know, that is one of the blessed things about having received a commutation

00:57:27.240 is now I get that you missed the graduations, but like you didn't you didn't miss the walking

00:57:32.820 down the aisle.

00:57:33.480 Right.

00:57:34.080 Like you didn't you didn't miss the grandkids.

00:57:37.200 Like all those things can still happen, not just for you, but for them.

00:57:41.660 Right.

00:57:42.000 It's the family, too, that suffers.

00:57:43.460 Your daughters are innocent.

00:57:44.580 This was the second most severe sentence ever handed down at the federal level for a similar

00:57:50.860 crime.

00:57:51.340 So it was really, truly extraordinary.

00:57:54.400 And that's why I think the extraordinary relief by President Trump was totally in line.

00:57:59.080 So let's talk a little bit before we get to that about the prison experience, because

00:58:02.520 just to update the audience on the timeline.

00:58:05.220 OK, so it's December 9th, 2008, when you get arrested and coughed.

00:58:09.440 Let's not blow back that by that.

00:58:11.160 That that's got to be I don't know.

00:58:14.740 I mean, like of the of like getting or finding out about the wiretaps, getting arrested and

00:58:18.840 coughed and then, of course, getting convicted.

00:58:21.840 Which which of those moments stands out to you the most?

00:58:24.880 And don't forget the sentencing when they say you're going away for 14 years.

00:58:28.980 Don't forget that.

00:58:29.560 Who could forget that?

00:58:30.460 That's a body blow.

00:58:31.200 Right.

00:58:32.380 Well, it was all it was.

00:58:34.000 I mean, you're picking up.

00:58:34.900 Ask me to pick my poison.

00:58:36.020 They were all bad.

00:58:36.840 So, you know, I'm a sitting governor.

00:58:39.660 And they came in. 0.95

00:58:40.420 They're corrupt prosecutors. 0.97

00:58:41.480 I know you disagree with me. 1.00

00:58:42.480 They are so dirty and so rotten and so corrupt. 0.98

00:58:44.720 Some of the same people who did to me what they tried to do to President Trump using 1.00

00:58:47.960 the same playbook.

00:58:48.820 So they came to my house at six o'clock in the morning.

00:58:51.020 I'm a sitting governor.

00:58:51.680 But can I say just with respect, what what happened to President Trump?

00:58:55.560 I actually do think was wrong.

00:58:56.940 I don't I don't think they had the grounds to impeach him or, you know, I don't.

00:59:01.580 Certainly not that first time.

00:59:02.800 And I think the grounds they came after with him on the second time were trumped up.

00:59:06.140 And they actually if they were going to object about that whole thing, they should have

00:59:08.480 objected to the amount of time he waited before he sent in any help.

00:59:11.720 Anyway, that's just my my thumbnail.

00:59:13.140 And but I can see when it is trumped up and when it isn't.

00:59:17.180 But I don't want to fight again.

00:59:18.880 So keep going.

00:59:19.980 That's OK.

00:59:20.660 That's OK.

00:59:21.540 I still love your book, by the way.

00:59:23.600 So no, I so I get a phone call.

00:59:27.880 I was going to run that morning.

00:59:28.940 I had my running clothes laid out because that psychologically helps you get out in the

00:59:31.840 cold early in the morning.

00:59:33.360 I'm the governor at the time and I've got security detail around my house.

00:59:36.480 They're always with me.

00:59:37.720 And the phone rings.

00:59:39.080 The alarm clock was set for six.

00:59:40.340 The phone rang a little before the alarm clock.

00:59:42.220 I answered the phone and it was one of my security guys saying, Governor, we have the

00:59:47.180 FBI here.

00:59:48.400 They have a warrant for your arrest.

00:59:50.480 And I was just waking up.

00:59:53.160 So I was sort of like not altogether as aware as you are when you're fully awake.

00:59:58.620 And I remember saying, come on, Jimmy, stop effing around.

01:00:01.880 And Jimmy is Jimmy DeLeo, a state senator from Illinois, was a close friend and ally from

01:00:09.040 Chicago, who is a real likable guy, likes to play practical jokes.

01:00:12.420 I thought he was messing around with me.

01:00:14.380 And then my security detail guy said, oh, no, no, governor, this is this isn't Senator

01:00:19.040 DeLeo.

01:00:19.360 This is agent so-and-so.

01:00:21.980 And hold on a second.

01:00:23.740 I'll put him on the phone.

01:00:27.200 And in fact, it was the agent first.

01:00:28.800 And then the security guy got on to confirm that the agent was, in fact, there.

01:00:33.100 And then they rush you and they say, hurry up.

01:00:35.300 Let us in.

01:00:35.740 Let us in.

01:00:36.220 And so we let them in, Patty and I.

01:00:40.600 Our little girls were sleeping upstairs in bed.

01:00:43.720 And our little Annie, when this happened, was five years old.

01:00:48.380 They were both going to have to go to school in an hour.

01:00:51.420 But fortunately, they were able to get me out of the house.

01:00:54.440 I mean, I got ready fast and left well before our daughters woke up to not have to be a part

01:01:00.000 of that.

01:01:00.580 And then they handcuffed me.

01:01:01.840 You know, that's another thing.

01:01:03.120 It was all shock and awe designed to break my will to resist and give in.

01:01:06.220 And create this media firestorm that was inevitably going to happen.

01:01:09.720 Create a political environment.

01:01:11.040 There's no reason to cuff you.

01:01:12.120 Yeah. 0.90

01:01:12.840 And they had SWAT teams around my house, which is completely ridiculous.

01:01:16.900 Because the only reason you arrest people are twofold.

01:01:19.940 Number one, he or she is a threat to the community, a danger to the community.

01:01:23.240 Number two, he or she might run away.

01:01:25.700 Well, I'm the sitting governor.

01:01:26.740 So they did this all for public relations and to prejudice the public against me.

01:01:30.940 And I think they felt that I was going to give in and that they would bring so much

01:01:34.320 down on me that I'd have no choice but to give in.

01:01:37.120 I think they were surprised that I fought back.

01:01:38.520 I think that explains the 14-year sentence.

01:01:41.320 Because I think, frankly, you know, anyway.

01:01:44.580 So that's how it was that morning.

01:01:46.800 They took me into custody.

01:01:47.740 In the beginning, they were very nice to me.

01:01:49.820 They were saying, you're not a bad guy.

01:01:51.100 You're a part of Chicago politics.

01:01:52.480 We listened to all your calls.

01:01:53.660 It was the good cop routine.

01:01:55.100 You can help us with other people.

01:01:56.720 And I interpreted that to mean they wanted me to talk about Obama.

01:01:59.200 Because the way they operate is they don't ask the guy that they're squeezing or putting

01:02:05.020 pressure on to talk about somebody in a lower position.

01:02:08.300 They want him to go higher.

01:02:10.280 And nobody's higher than a governor.

01:02:11.940 They weren't looking for me to talk about aldermen in Chicago.

01:02:14.840 They wanted me to talk about somebody higher than a governor.

01:02:16.800 And nobody's higher except the president.

01:02:18.760 And Obama was instrumental in those phone calls because he sent someone, allegedly, to talk

01:02:24.420 to me about the Senate seat.

01:02:28.000 So when I told them, look, I did nothing wrong.

01:02:30.540 And I'm not going to talk about me or anybody.

01:02:33.920 Then their mood changed.

01:02:35.740 And they transported me to the federal court building, which you're familiar with because

01:02:40.420 you practice law in Chicago, 219 South Dearborn, which is my least favorite place in the whole

01:02:45.640 universe, not just the world.

01:02:47.380 I hate that spot.

01:02:49.220 And they put me in this cell, which is really small and tight.

01:02:53.160 And then they, this was all by design too, to psychologically screw with you, which I

01:02:57.500 knew.

01:02:57.980 And they had me next to a guy that was very angry, all hyped up on PCB, very violent.

01:03:04.240 And he was in the cell right next to me, but the window was open that separated us.

01:03:08.740 So, you know, he was MF and these guys back and forth pace in the small little space he

01:03:13.000 had.

01:03:13.600 I decided to do some pushups in there so that I could write in my book, which I did, that

01:03:18.040 I did pushups in there.

01:03:19.080 And then we were arraigned about 1.30 in the afternoon, my chief of staff and I, and

01:03:24.900 my chief of staff, I hadn't seen all day, but I learned that day that he, they arrested

01:03:29.040 him too.

01:03:30.200 Then he used to work for Mayor Daley, Megan, you remember Mayor Daley, right?

01:03:35.420 Sure, of course.

01:03:36.460 And funny because a couple of weeks before that, we were on a flight coming back from

01:03:40.260 Springfield and we were just talking and I asked him, let me ask you a question.

01:03:43.980 His name is John Harris.

01:03:44.780 Who was harder to work for me or Mayor Daley?

01:03:47.780 And he had told me, oh, you're so much easier to work for than Mayor Daley.

01:03:50.820 You know, he gets angry.

01:03:51.860 He yells, he puts pressure on you, blah, blah, blah.

01:03:54.020 You're a breeze compared to Mayor Daley.

01:03:56.160 So unbeknownst to both of us at the time, we're not foreseeing what's going to happen

01:04:01.300 in a few weeks.

01:04:02.480 There we are.

01:04:03.560 I hadn't seen him all day.

01:04:05.300 He's waiting outside on the door on the other side of the courtroom where we're about

01:04:09.680 to be arraigned, where we expect a media frenzy, which was exactly what happened.

01:04:15.460 And I see him briefly as we're waiting for our case to get called.

01:04:19.320 And I said to him, hey, John, I have one question for you.

01:04:23.080 Now let me ask you, who's harder to work for me or Mayor Daley?

01:04:27.160 And needless to say, he laughed nervously.

01:04:29.980 And I think it was pretty obvious.

01:04:32.400 It's harder to work for me.

01:04:33.780 Yeah.

01:04:34.000 At least he didn't get dragged into federal court on criminal charges for Daley.

01:04:37.700 So, but one thing I noticed watching the documentary is in, in, when you get dragged in front of

01:04:43.780 the cameras for when you were arrested and during the trial and so on, what I saw was

01:04:50.220 a man who loves the camera.

01:04:53.280 You, the circumstances were difficult, but you are like a moth to the flame when the press

01:05:00.020 is around. 0.93

01:05:00.600 You did not look like somebody who's like, I hate these piranhas.

01:05:03.260 Cause you're like, I still love you.

01:05:06.000 And don't you still love me?

01:05:07.660 And the poor, you know, they're coming after me.

01:05:10.000 And like, it seemed to me like you always felt like if I can just get through to the

01:05:13.620 people directly, if I can just speak to the people, I will convince them to drop this.

01:05:19.180 Well, I think there's an element of truth to that.

01:05:20.760 Yes.

01:05:20.940 I think that's part of it.

01:05:21.820 I don't know if that was part of a, it's a concerted plan necessarily.

01:05:25.660 It was more.

01:05:26.540 I think it's instinct.

01:05:27.440 It seems like your genuine emotion.

01:05:28.840 Yeah, I think that's right.

01:05:31.600 Look, again, you're going to disagree with me, but I know, I just know in my heart, I

01:05:35.620 didn't do anything wrong.

01:05:36.420 And I knew what those people were doing to me.

01:05:36.920 You didn't do it.

01:05:37.480 I got it.

01:05:38.300 I know.

01:05:38.960 So I'm sorry.

01:05:39.640 But so I'm fighting back, but I see what they're doing.

01:05:42.380 They put a court seal on the tapes within days of my arrest, which means I couldn't get

01:05:46.460 those tapes out and defend myself.

01:05:48.320 I saw that a lot of some of the other stuff they were doing.

01:05:51.300 And so my only recourse was, I felt, was to somehow reach the people.

01:05:55.240 And when you're innocent, if you believe you're innocent, as I know I am, you want to shout

01:06:00.960 from the highest roof, I didn't do it.

01:06:03.140 And so whenever there was a camera, whenever there was an opportunity for me to get out

01:06:06.620 there and express my, what I believe, what I know the truth to be, I did it.

01:06:12.160 You're right.

01:06:12.940 And against the advice of a lot of my attorneys who said, you're just going to piss off the

01:06:16.780 judge and down the road here, these guys have so much power to going to get you.

01:06:20.040 You're going to have to answer for this one day.

01:06:21.900 But I felt like this was my only recourse.

01:06:24.480 Well, some people thought you were trying to poison the jury pool, you know, which is

01:06:28.000 what a lot of people do in a criminal trial, you know, defense.

01:06:31.480 And in the first trial, indeed, they were deadlocked on all of the counts, but one.

01:06:35.880 They found you guilty of lying to the FBI earlier on in connection with the Resco thing, but they

01:06:40.480 were not able to reach a verdict on all the other counts.

01:06:44.320 And I don't know that that was jury nullification, but I'm just saying, clearly the jury wasn't

01:06:47.760 convinced about your guilt.

01:06:49.860 And then, of course, the prosecution said, oh, we will be retrying him.

01:06:54.780 And they did.

01:06:55.340 And they secured a conviction on 20 counts.

01:06:58.540 So you go in now.

01:07:01.300 And actually, should I back up?

01:07:02.760 Because the retrial didn't come until 2011.

01:07:08.500 But back in 2010.

01:07:10.520 OK, so January 9th, 2008, December, you're arrested.

01:07:15.740 January 9th, the Illinois legislature impeaches you.

01:07:19.180 You get thrown out of office.

01:07:20.960 April 2009, you get the official charges, racketeering, extortion, et cetera.

01:07:25.620 Then spring of 2010, right before your trial started, you went on Celebrity Apprentice.

01:07:33.260 Why?

01:07:33.660 When you get arrested like that and you have that problem, you become a leper.

01:07:41.680 And the people that know you and did work with you don't want to go near you because

01:07:45.200 they don't want to catch what you have.

01:07:46.880 And that's very natural.

01:07:47.940 It's human nature.

01:07:48.520 It's understandable.

01:07:49.620 Nor do you want to get them caught up in anything.

01:07:51.960 So you're isolated.

01:07:53.520 My wife, Patty, was working as an executive director for a homeless organization doing great

01:07:58.000 work.

01:07:58.300 She had a contract.

01:07:59.120 But when I was arrested, they terminated her contract.

01:08:04.520 Now, we could have probably sued.

01:08:06.580 But how do you sue a homeless organization, right?

01:08:09.200 And I was thrown out of office, as you say.

01:08:11.320 It wasn't January 9th.

01:08:12.080 That was the House impeachment.

01:08:12.860 I was thrown out later in the month, later in January in the Senate.

01:08:17.480 But we were both out of work.

01:08:19.520 And neither one of us had any income.

01:08:20.980 We have a mortgage to pay here.

01:08:22.920 I didn't get rich in the business.

01:08:24.220 And so you're looking for a way to earn a living pending the trials.

01:08:29.780 And it's interesting, Megan.

01:08:31.500 I was typecast as such a scoundrel that in the early stages, again, nobody wants to do

01:08:36.780 anything with you in the ordinary course of things.

01:08:39.060 But the one world, Megan, where there's some interest, ironically, is the entertainment

01:08:43.980 world.

01:08:44.740 And I never really gave much thought about any of that.

01:08:48.300 I never watched reality television.

01:08:49.860 I had met Donald Trump a couple of times before, only briefly.

01:08:55.020 I never watched his show. 0.97

01:08:57.040 But I was typecast as this scoundrel.

01:08:59.300 And so I was getting offers that I was turning down.

01:09:01.780 For example, I was offered six figures to be a greeter on an HBO show about a house of

01:09:06.500 prostitution in Henderson, Nevada, called The Buddy Ranch. 0.62

01:09:09.820 Oh, my gosh. 0.96

01:09:10.240 I would have been a...

01:09:11.220 Can you imagine?

01:09:12.660 Right?

01:09:13.180 No.

01:09:13.780 And I could have used the money, but I just couldn't do that.

01:09:16.300 I have two young daughters.

01:09:17.060 I'm not doing that.

01:09:17.700 And then I was invited to go out to the game show network.

01:09:21.200 There's a place in Santa Monica where they have all these game shows that are on different

01:09:24.540 cable television networks, apparently.

01:09:26.800 And they had a perfect spot for me to be some guy who would go around with a camera and catch

01:09:32.600 men cheating on their wives and then put the camera on them.

01:09:35.180 And then I'd say, hey, buddy, what do you think?

01:09:36.700 She caught you.

01:09:38.000 And I said, look, I'm not comfortable doing that.

01:09:41.140 I said, do you have a show where you got a pretty girl who spins a wheel? 1.00

01:09:44.580 And I asked trivia questions.

01:09:45.600 I feel like I could do that.

01:09:46.740 And they said, we don't see you that way.

01:09:49.640 We see you more as this other guy.

01:09:51.600 So I turned that one down.

01:09:53.180 And then something wholesome came around.

01:09:54.740 There were two of them.

01:09:55.280 One was called I'm a celebrity.

01:09:56.440 Get me out of here where they put you in the jungle in Costa Rica and you got to eat tarantulas

01:10:00.840 and do other things to get out of the jungle.

01:10:02.920 And the public votes to keep you on or off.

01:10:05.260 It was at NBC, by the way.

01:10:07.180 And the prosecutors objected to me doing that because it required me.

01:10:10.800 I didn't have a passport and I'd have to go to Costa Rica.

01:10:13.220 NBC offered to pay for U.S.

01:10:14.640 Marshals.

01:10:15.200 I'm a celebrity.

01:10:16.000 Get me out of here.

01:10:16.920 That could have been the lower third on any show I did while at NBC.

01:10:20.480 But keep going.

01:10:21.700 Well, anyway, so I couldn't do it.

01:10:24.100 But because we were in such dire straits financially and I was so notorious at the time, evidently,

01:10:30.880 I was good for ratings.

01:10:32.020 They wanted my wife, Patty. 0.94

01:10:33.860 And Patty did it for our family.

01:10:35.880 And America liked her. 1.00

01:10:37.580 She made it to the final four.

01:10:38.680 So she was on for the whole month, Monday through Thursday on NBC Live television.

01:10:42.560 I like her, too.

01:10:43.240 I like her, too.

01:10:44.500 You only need to hear an interview or two with Patty and you're like, I like her.

01:10:48.280 I'm a little worried about the state of your marriage.

01:10:49.820 But only because of the things that you expressed on camera and she did as well.

01:10:55.300 So, OK, so you go on Celebrity Apprentice.

01:10:58.280 You meet Donald Trump.

01:10:58.960 I know you'd met briefly years before, but you get to know Trump.

01:11:01.500 And, you know, one thing you can't deny about President Trump is he is a television genius

01:11:06.300 and he understands what works on television.

01:11:08.160 He does in a way that few others do.

01:11:09.920 So you go on.

01:11:11.380 Yeah, it worked out OK.

01:11:12.500 He did fire you.

01:11:13.240 He fires most people.

01:11:14.120 And here was the moment just for people who are curious.

01:11:16.060 This is sound by eight.

01:11:17.760 Well, actually, Aaron was telling me that Rod had certain difficulties with elements of technology.

01:11:24.340 Yeah, that's definitely what I heard.

01:11:26.240 I can understand you are a little nervous about using the phone.

01:11:30.080 But they seem to go a little bit beyond that.

01:11:34.400 But you couldn't email.

01:11:35.340 So you couldn't really say what you thought because you didn't want Salita to hear.

01:11:39.260 And what was Rod doing?

01:11:45.540 Well, it couldn't be that bad.

01:11:48.060 I mean, I'm just asking sort of an innocent question, I think.

01:11:51.480 Rod was napping.

01:11:52.880 Napping.

01:11:53.480 Yes.

01:11:53.860 All right.

01:11:54.200 Maybe that's not so bad.

01:11:55.340 No, it's not so bad, but I was working.

01:11:57.380 With all due respect to Salita, Winston Churchill said you can take one day and make it a day and a half

01:12:01.320 if you make a judicious use of your time in the middle of the day.

01:12:04.120 And then, frankly, I did have my sunglasses on.

01:12:06.200 So maybe my eyes were open.

01:12:07.540 I have great respect for you.

01:12:08.960 I have great respect for your tenacity, for the fact that you just don't give up.

01:12:15.200 But, Rod, you're fired.

01:12:17.180 Who would know?

01:12:20.600 Who could possibly have known at that point in 2010 that 10 years later, you would be in prison,

01:12:32.480 he would be in the White House, and he would return to you your freedom?

01:12:37.580 It's mind-blowing.

01:12:38.680 Mind-blowing.

01:12:39.980 Yes.

01:12:40.380 Is that a question?

01:12:41.420 Yeah.

01:12:41.820 I don't just like, is it mind-blowing for you?

01:12:43.820 Like, who?

01:12:44.360 It's not like you knew.

01:12:45.500 It's not like you went on Celebrity Apprentice because you were like, oh, that guy's going

01:12:47.940 to be president one day.

01:12:49.000 Things are going south for me with the law right now.

01:12:51.040 You couldn't possibly have known.

01:12:52.320 So, I mean, just the series of events that would wind up, you know, returning to you as

01:12:56.380 a result of that stint.

01:12:57.820 It's pretty extraordinary.

01:12:59.460 The unlikely convergence of events and President Trump being the instrument is the hand of God.

01:13:04.840 I firmly believe that.

01:13:05.920 Now, I had all those days in prison, 2,896 days to do several things like catch up on my

01:13:11.720 reading, and I did a lot of reading, and I read the Bible in ways, and I'm not here to

01:13:15.720 proselytize my Christian faith to anybody else, but I read it in ways because I was so alone

01:13:20.060 and so yearning for home and brokenhearted that the only comfort I could find was the Bible.

01:13:28.160 And I read it in a way where I didn't feel rushed.

01:13:31.300 I didn't feel like I had to go and do other things so I can get ahead in life.

01:13:35.780 I just read it and read it over and over again, and I feel like I have so much of a better

01:13:39.740 understanding of the word of God and what he wants and expects from us.

01:13:43.580 And I look back on all of that, like you say, and it had to be.

01:13:48.140 It had to be divine intervention, and I'm always going to be grateful to President Trump.

01:13:52.300 I love President Trump.

01:13:53.560 I'm a Trumpocrat for reasons beyond just what he did for me.

01:13:56.220 But no, I agree with you, Megan.

01:13:59.400 It was something that was extremely improbable, unlikely, unpredictable, and an unusual convergence

01:14:07.860 of events.

01:14:08.580 And never in my wildest dreams when I was doing that show, and that scene that you just showed

01:14:14.040 when he fired me was October 2009.

01:14:17.240 Never in my wildest dreams.

01:14:18.760 Am I thinking ahead that he's ever going to be the President of the United States, much

01:14:21.100 less getting into politics?

01:14:21.840 Up next, what life was like for the former governor of Illinois in prison.

01:14:33.380 All right, so let's go back to the beginning of that almost 3,000 days.

01:14:37.220 And you get sentenced.

01:14:38.340 You've got to go off to prison.

01:14:39.440 There's the tape of you leaving your family because of the news.

01:14:42.260 It was like the Paris Hilton arrest.

01:14:45.040 I mean, it was a crazy amount of press following every move.

01:14:48.620 I know you say in the documentary you had made a resolution not to turn back.

01:14:52.560 Oh, if you hugged your daughters and your wife, you would resolve not to look back after

01:14:57.680 that moment as you're getting into the car.

01:15:00.080 Tell us about that.

01:15:00.980 Well, that was the day that I dreaded and thought a lot about for a long time leading up to the

01:15:07.600 day, the morning that I left for prison, which was early in the morning.

01:15:10.260 It was about 5 or 5.30 in the morning on the 15th of March 2012.

01:15:17.860 It was a Thursday.

01:15:19.700 And I had been sentenced, I think it was Pearl Harbor Day, December 7, 2011.

01:15:24.880 The judge gave me 14 years.

01:15:27.420 And so I knew the date that I was going to have to leave home and report.

01:15:31.740 It's called self-surrender.

01:15:33.820 And Patty and I spent time discussing how we were going to handle this because we wanted

01:15:39.880 to do this in the best possible way for our little girls.

01:15:43.220 And like I said earlier, my younger one was eight years old and our older one was 15,

01:15:50.840 so sophomore in high school.

01:15:51.880 So Patty had us see a child psychologist to kind of work through the days leading up to

01:16:01.560 my departure, things that we should do together as a family before I go away for a very long

01:16:05.880 time.

01:16:07.100 And part of that, too, was Patty and I sort of wargaming what that morning is going to be

01:16:13.140 like when I say goodbye.

01:16:14.080 And me personally, I spent a lot of time thinking about that and dreading it and fearful that

01:16:21.900 it would be heart-wrenching for my children.

01:16:25.140 And so my philosophy was that we should try to be as upbeat and positive and cheerful as

01:16:29.500 we possibly can be, which meant that I had to lead by example and had to put on a brave

01:16:34.060 face, even though inside I was dying, as you can imagine.

01:16:37.060 Um, and so, you know, the night before Patty, she made my last supper, which was, uh, my

01:16:43.900 wife's, uh, my mother had a, my favorite recipe for spaghetti that my mother used to make me,

01:16:49.640 my late mother, that she taught Patty before she passed away.

01:16:53.180 So Patty made me that, but I didn't taste any of it, you know, cause you're going away.

01:16:58.980 But, um, so we were up really early at four o'clock in the morning and we were in the foyer

01:17:04.660 area right by our front door.

01:17:07.600 A couple of my lawyers were at the home already.

01:17:10.400 Um, two of them were going to fly out to Colorado with me and the media was with me every step

01:17:14.540 of the way, as you correctly said, including a helicopter following me from my home to O'Hare

01:17:18.740 airport in Chicago.

01:17:19.820 And then one picking me up in Denver from the Denver airport, as I right into the moment

01:17:24.780 that I crossed the threshold and left the world, the real world to enter that world that I,

01:17:28.980 would spend nearly eight years in.

01:17:31.840 So they're all out there in front of my house and it was time to say goodbye.

01:17:36.500 And I had planned this in my own mind and replayed it over and over again, how it was going to

01:17:42.040 go and how I needed to be strong and all the rest.

01:17:44.940 And I'd been determined that, you know, we would embrace and kiss and say goodbye.

01:17:50.380 And then I would walk out the door and be, and steel myself to not look back at them.

01:17:56.400 Cause I didn't know that I could handle it.

01:17:57.920 And, uh, and so I got, you know, we did all of that.

01:18:02.400 And my little one came down and she was in her pajamas and, you know, she hugged me and

01:18:05.660 squeezed me, you know, just kissing her on the top of her head.

01:18:09.280 And, uh, and then I had to leave the embrace and walk to the door.

01:18:15.640 And, and then I did what I shouldn't have done.

01:18:20.000 And I looked back and one last look back, one last blown kiss to my kids and my wife and

01:18:27.480 then out the door.

01:18:28.120 And there was all that media, you know, so they don't give you a time to, you know, consult

01:18:33.580 with your emotions, which probably was a good thing.

01:18:35.640 It made you stay strong.

01:18:36.740 So I had to face the media, which was in a weird way, maybe a blessing because it prevented

01:18:42.460 me from, you know, maybe giving into the emotion and maybe breaking down, which I couldn't let

01:18:47.460 myself do, but it's a moment I'll always remember.

01:18:50.360 Of course, I would say, you know, that, and, you know, holding my mother's hand when she

01:18:56.220 was passing away.

01:18:56.960 I would say those were the hardest moments I've ever had in my life.

01:18:59.180 I can't imagine.

01:19:00.560 I cannot imagine things much harder than that.

01:19:03.460 I have, I have an eight year old and kissing him goodbye and knowing that it's going to

01:19:08.460 be 14 years before I can hug him again, hold him and all the things I'm going to miss, you

01:19:14.640 know, thinking, I mean, it wound up being almost eight, but it's still a long time.

01:19:19.380 And when you left, you thought it was going to be 14.

01:19:21.120 You thought she was going to be 22, that you would have missed the entire thing.

01:19:27.200 It's just, that is devastating.

01:19:29.560 And I'm sure, I mean, when your daughter writes of trauma, she means it.

01:19:33.900 Well, yes.

01:19:34.400 And as I said before, the worst part of it all is, is the impact that has on your children.

01:19:39.600 And, uh, and then I replay, you know, the things that I did or didn't do, should have

01:19:44.280 done differently.

01:19:45.360 My pride and all of those other things that go into it, you know, but, uh, your, but your

01:19:50.200 wife, Patty, not only did she go on to raise your daughters, but she stood by you and

01:19:55.080 she didn't file for divorce or try to find a new husband who could be present, you know,

01:19:59.860 for the bulk of the upbringing of your daughters, she stood by you.

01:20:04.480 She's one of the reasons why you got the commutation.

01:20:06.540 She, she ultimately went on Fox news and, um, through this guy who worked for the Trump

01:20:11.500 administration, helped you with this op-ed and basically went on a full campaign once

01:20:15.260 Trump was president to get the commutation.

01:20:16.680 And things in part, for sure to her, you got it, um, with some start smart strategy.

01:20:23.760 Um, but let's talk about what, what it was like in prison, because not everybody like

01:20:29.960 you has been to prison.

01:20:31.220 And, um, I have to imagine it wasn't glamorous.

01:20:34.560 It was, it was, it was federal prison, right?

01:20:36.900 Cause it's federal crimes in Colorado.

01:20:38.560 So did you have a roommate?

01:20:40.220 What were the inmates like to you?

01:20:42.260 Well, I'm the only governor on a lot of stuff, including the only one to be put in a higher

01:20:46.420 security prison.

01:20:47.480 So my first 32 months I was in what the inmates call the prison behind the razor wire.

01:20:52.760 That's the barbed wired fence.

01:20:54.040 And you can't go near that fence.

01:20:55.420 Cause if you do, there are prison guards, they're armed with machine guns who have the

01:20:58.500 discretion to shoot you.

01:20:59.840 And there were about 950 guys there. 0.97

01:21:01.960 There were all kinds of drug dealers, cartel members, gang bangers, Sudeños, Notenios, 0.98

01:21:07.560 Crips and Bloods, Aryan nation, racist white guys. 0.87

01:21:11.480 I mean, like Pacific Islander gangs, Native American gangs, and the gangs are important 0.95

01:21:16.340 because they, they encourage segregation of the groups of people.

01:21:19.940 They want to keep them separate within that kind of prison world.

01:21:23.260 Um, there were murderers there, bank robbers, con artists of the 950 guys. 0.96

01:21:28.320 Maybe there was about 2% of me being one of them that were so-called white collar, you

01:21:33.500 know, in other words, business crimes or things of that sort.

01:21:36.480 Of course, I'm the only governor there.

01:21:38.040 Um, and my home for that time, for a lot of that time was a little cell, six foot by eight

01:21:45.240 foot prison cell, four cement walls, a big heavy iron door that can shut you in, small

01:21:50.540 window with bars on it, a bunk bed, uh, for two.

01:21:54.180 Well, I'm on the top and the other guy and the inmates would come and go.

01:21:58.640 So you'd have different roommates, bunk cellies, they call them.

01:22:02.400 Um, so you're, I was on the top.

01:22:04.140 The other guy was on the bottom, a little space.

01:22:06.560 Sometimes they lock you in and you'd be in there for a couple of days.

01:22:08.700 You do pushups in there.

01:22:10.500 Um, so, you know, it was real prison, like in the movies.

01:22:14.260 And then after 32 months, because I was well-behaved model inmate, um, then I was able to get

01:22:20.640 transferred to the camp.

01:22:21.620 And the camp is still prison.

01:22:23.560 You're away from your family, but there, there aren't any fences.

01:22:26.260 You're on your own.

01:22:27.600 You can't leave the boundary.

01:22:29.300 And there's a, there's more free time that you're not as monitored like you are in that

01:22:33.380 higher prison because they're always keeping an eye on everybody.

01:22:36.560 And, uh, you're, you're with a different type of the community is different.

01:22:41.480 It's a, it's a less threatening or violent type community in the camp.

01:22:45.400 But that first 32 months was, uh, where I started and, uh, I didn't fear anybody.

01:22:51.180 You know, I grew up in a rough and tough neighborhood and, and you know what, after

01:22:54.240 they did what they did to me.

01:22:55.180 And then there's prison.

01:22:58.180 Yeah, but yes.

01:23:00.480 And, but after what they did to me and the, all the different feelings I had, I feared

01:23:05.860 nothing.

01:23:06.260 And if somebody wanted to hurt me in some ways, it was almost a relief.

01:23:10.040 You know, you can, if you know what I'm saying, it'd be sort of like, get you out of

01:23:13.940 your misery because to me, of course, the hardest part was the yearning for home and

01:23:18.300 missing your children, your wife, the hole in your heart that you're walking around with 0.91

01:23:21.680 always.

01:23:22.600 And it never goes away over time.

01:23:25.180 It blunts and over as the years unfolded, I mean, it would be weeks and months and seasons

01:23:30.140 and years and years and years that hole in your heart.

01:23:34.560 And that, that pain that you feel deep inside, it's always with you.

01:23:37.680 It's a constant companion.

01:23:39.160 It blunts, but then it would get triggered.

01:23:41.840 You'd be around a bunch of guys.

01:23:43.120 Somebody might say something that's funny.

01:23:44.680 You'd laugh and then you'd remember something maybe about your children or your wife or home

01:23:49.360 or something.

01:23:50.040 And then that sadness would come in and it would remind you where you are and where you've

01:23:54.360 been for a long time.

01:23:55.680 So it's not an easy thing.

01:23:56.860 Of course not.

01:23:57.880 But here again, I have.

01:23:58.940 In a way, Rod, it's like, you know, you're, you're mentioning my dad and I wouldn't recommend

01:24:03.900 the loss of someone that close to you at the tender age of 15 to anyone.

01:24:08.520 But when you lose somebody to death, you know, they're gone.

01:24:11.640 You know, you're, you have to go forward and you think of those memories and you're sad

01:24:16.400 that the person's no longer there to share them with you.

01:24:18.600 But in a way, this seems almost harder because the people are still here and they're just

01:24:24.480 going on without you.

01:24:26.080 All these great new memories are happening.

01:24:28.420 You just can't have any access to them.

01:24:30.840 You're just excluded and you'll never be able to go back and get access to them again.

01:24:34.500 I mean, I'm not trying to bum you out.

01:24:35.940 I'm just thinking about the torture that must be.

01:24:38.980 Well, yes.

01:24:39.380 But as you write in your book and you talk about embracing adversity, I know you say

01:24:44.140 that because I saw you say it on TV and I know what your book's about.

01:24:47.600 That's what you have to do.

01:24:49.160 And so my mission, my purpose was to lead by example and teach my daughters hard lessons

01:24:54.000 now by living it.

01:24:55.800 So as I said, you can catch up on your reading.

01:24:58.300 I read a great book three times in those 2,896 days called Man's Search for Meaning by

01:25:03.140 Viktor Frankl.

01:25:04.400 And in that book, he says that the last human freedom is our freedom to choose our own attitude

01:25:09.280 in any given set of circumstances.

01:25:13.060 And my purpose after I left the real world and crossed into that threshold, which was

01:25:18.620 now prison in that tiny little world that I was now in with all those gangbangers, some

01:25:23.740 of the murderers and criminals and all the other guys, the bank robbers and the rest.

01:25:26.720 My purpose was to be as strong as I possibly can be to use that time in the most constructive

01:25:32.700 way that I can use it to get through the time and to plant the seeds for one day.

01:25:37.880 Maybe you can do something good later on in life.

01:25:40.480 But most of all, to teach my daughters by the example that I said during this difficult,

01:25:46.100 hard circumstance, how you face adversity.

01:25:49.160 That's how I convinced myself that I had purpose.

01:25:51.640 I think that was the right thing to do.

01:25:54.880 And it gave me inspiration to go on and be strong.

01:25:58.500 Because let's face it, it's a long, long time.

01:26:00.780 And you feel like the whole world's come down on you.

01:26:03.580 Sometimes hope creeps in, despair creeps in.

01:26:06.600 I mean, hopelessness creeps in, despair creeps in.

01:26:09.220 And you got to push it away.

01:26:11.220 And when I would remind myself of what my purpose was, which is something better than

01:26:14.400 me, my daughters, and the love I have for them and Patty, I had to endure and persevere

01:26:20.140 and eventually overcome.

01:26:21.360 And so it actually gave me strength in a weird way.

01:26:24.240 So let me ask you an impertinent question, which is, you know, I'd be less worried about

01:26:28.860 despair creeping in in my little cell than I would about another man.

01:26:33.680 Like, I mean, that's got to be a concern, right?

01:26:37.700 So tell me about that. 1.00

01:26:39.980 You mean some guy kicking your ass or some other? 0.99

01:26:42.060 No, I mean, did anybody ever come for you in a less than threatening and sort of a, hey, 0.99

01:26:47.860 gov, love gov kind of way?

01:26:50.420 Yes, you're asking a valid question because that's very real there, as you know.

01:26:55.360 Well, you don't know that, but it is.

01:26:56.880 I mean, it is a fact of life that some of these guys get together and do that thing stuff.

01:27:04.820 There are gay people there and they gravitate to other gay guys.

01:27:10.140 But there are guys who are not gay who then do that.

01:27:14.180 I never felt threatened by any of that, frankly, and never did.

01:27:17.440 I mean, you're going to have conflict when you're with men for a long time every day,

01:27:21.560 all those years.

01:27:22.760 You know, I want the window open.

01:27:23.740 He wants it closed.

01:27:24.800 There'll be conflict. 0.92

01:27:26.000 You are with men who are mostly criminals.

01:27:29.580 I mean, there were some others that maybe didn't do what they were in there for, maybe. 0.97

01:27:34.800 But most of them are criminals.

01:27:36.640 There are a lot of tough guys, as you can imagine.

01:27:38.620 And you're going to have conflict from time to time.

01:27:40.840 But like I said, I mean, after what I had gone through and feeling the real pain, which

01:27:46.920 is the loss of the heartbreak, being away from my family, I never felt any fear or anything

01:27:52.660 that any of those guys can do to me that would cause me anything to worry about.

01:27:56.700 I just didn't.

01:27:57.280 I never did.

01:27:58.700 And I mean, you know, obviously getting beaten up in the court era, the one that like getting 0.97

01:28:03.680 raped.

01:28:04.360 That's not something like seriously.

01:28:06.260 How do you make sure that doesn't happen?

01:28:08.980 How do you like does anybody come on?

01:28:11.320 If I like hell, well, like how did you telegraph?

01:28:15.320 Don't don't mess with me.

01:28:17.060 Well, you know, you mean physically?

01:28:19.400 Is someone.

01:28:20.200 Yeah.

01:28:20.420 Like, aren't you worried you go in there like I saw the video like you're a runner, but

01:28:24.440 like you're not the biggest, most burly guy I've ever seen in my life.

01:28:27.320 I'd be a little worried.

01:28:28.140 You got the great hair.

01:28:29.000 I don't know.

01:28:30.280 Thank you.

01:28:31.740 Well, there's a guy in prison by the name of Sinclair.

01:28:33.780 I hope he's doing well.

01:28:34.580 I really like this guy from North Carolina.

01:28:36.700 He could bench press 750 pounds.

01:28:39.040 You know, they had good workout facilities at that higher security prison.

01:28:42.080 And I kept myself busy exercising a lot, too.

01:28:44.620 Now, you're right.

01:28:45.060 I'm not big like those guys.

01:28:46.780 But, you know, you develop friendships.

01:28:48.880 And then, you know, if somebody wants to screw with you, some of those guys who like you

01:28:53.680 are there for you if you need them.

01:28:55.920 But I never really felt I every time I get close to some conflicts and physical conflict

01:29:00.580 with somebody.

01:29:01.080 Again, it's inevitable, but I never really felt ever being endangered.

01:29:06.660 You know, maybe I was just oblivious to it.

01:29:09.280 I don't know.

01:29:10.360 Maybe they were all Republicans.

01:29:12.660 What's that?

01:29:13.640 Maybe they were all Republicans.

01:29:16.500 They just you were Democrats there.

01:29:18.580 No, more way more Democrats.

01:29:19.960 There were.

01:29:20.980 Oh, yes, of course.

01:29:22.900 Demographically.

01:29:23.680 Yeah.

01:29:24.360 Not particularly surprising.

01:29:26.060 So.

01:29:26.520 All right.

01:29:26.720 So what about that?

01:29:27.520 Because you're talking about like the gangs and this is where you don't stand.

01:29:30.860 And who teaches you that when you get to prison?

01:29:33.500 Yes.

01:29:34.380 Well, you know, you a couple of things.

01:29:36.060 For one thing, early on, I was called in by the captain and lieutenant.

01:29:40.420 And when they call you in, you're already locked into your into the housing where that's

01:29:45.960 where the cells are in the the dorm area that everybody's locked in behind the iron gates

01:29:52.500 and the iron doors.

01:29:54.520 And they have these hours where you got to be locked in.

01:29:57.340 And and this is like three o'clock.

01:29:59.800 They you like they lock you until dinnertime, which is about five thirty.

01:30:03.180 And and then you can go out for a few hours in the warm weather and then you get locked

01:30:07.600 in again at eight o'clock at night until the next morning at six.

01:30:10.340 But anyway, when I was there for a day or two and I'd walked the track with a black guy 0.64

01:30:16.940 from the south side of Chicago who had already been in prison for 17 years, he was a drug

01:30:21.600 dealer.

01:30:21.900 And of course, he knew who I was because I'd been the governor.

01:30:24.280 And, you know, I was just brand new there and getting to know him.

01:30:29.340 And I got called in the next day by the captain and lieutenant.

01:30:32.580 And they when they call you, when they do it on a on a not the microphone, what do you

01:30:37.880 call loudspeaker, right?

01:30:39.500 Inmate Blagojevich report to the captain's office, the lieutenant's office.

01:30:43.440 And when that happens, you learn generally the inmate that's being called in did something

01:30:48.860 really wrong and is like you're probably not going to see that inmate again because they're

01:30:53.140 probably going to be sent to solitary confinement or they're going to be transferred to a to another

01:30:57.220 prison.

01:30:57.640 And because, as you can imagine, there's a lot of violence from time to time.

01:31:02.460 Some of these guys will fight.

01:31:03.640 You know, some of the fights get really nasty.

01:31:06.540 There's all kinds of activity that's illegal.

01:31:11.040 So that's not an uncommon thing.

01:31:12.780 So when I got called in right away, the scuttlebutt in the community was the gov must have really

01:31:18.100 done something wrong.

01:31:19.400 And I think they expected to not see me again.

01:31:21.920 But I was called in because these guys, the cops, that's the correctional officers.

01:31:28.180 They wanted to give me the land and teach me the rules, which was you can't walk the

01:31:33.260 track with a member of the other race.

01:31:35.200 You got to stay with the white guys. 0.97

01:31:37.800 Yeah.

01:31:38.540 And they told me that they put me in touch with a couple of guys that I should go see.

01:31:43.360 And they explained to me what the rationale was, but why they separate the community along

01:31:49.820 the lines of race.

01:31:50.820 And they, the Latino guys stay with the Latino guys, the Native Americans, the Native Americans, 0.99

01:31:55.820 black guys with the black guys, white guys with the white guys. 0.74

01:31:57.640 It's like a college campus in America in today's day and age.

01:32:01.120 Yeah.

01:32:01.460 In the segregated South back in the 1950s, right?

01:32:03.800 No.

01:32:03.940 And sadly, yet again, in 2022.

01:32:05.960 I mean, this is where we're going now, where we're, you know, all these race affinity groups

01:32:08.860 were, you know, only the blacks and only the whites and only the whatever.

01:32:11.860 No, your point's well taken.

01:32:12.840 I started to be turned home with this neo-racism that's gone crazy since the world has changed

01:32:16.520 since I came home and it's like, holy cow, that's how it's supposed to be in prison.

01:32:19.760 That's what we've gone to after we elected, you know, Obama president should have gone

01:32:22.980 the other way.

01:32:24.160 Right.

01:32:24.420 You must've been shocked.

01:32:25.740 Yeah.

01:32:25.960 Keep going.

01:32:27.140 Well, they, so they're explaining the customs.

01:32:29.760 You got to, you got to stay with your own and they call them cars.

01:32:32.340 You got to travel with your own car.

01:32:33.780 And it's the gang, the group that you should be in, because if someone wants to hurt you,

01:32:38.020 your group will protect you.

01:32:39.600 And it comes down to race.

01:32:40.980 And it's sort of like mutually assured destruction that if there's enough guys in each group and

01:32:46.460 no one screws with anybody, Fs with anybody, that's the word that's used because then

01:32:51.300 the whole group has to fight.

01:32:52.760 And that's sort of the customary way of living there. 0.93

01:32:55.560 And so they were telling me, you can't be breaking these rules by walking with black guys. 1.00

01:33:00.080 And I remember saying vividly, look at me and after what I've been through and all these

01:33:03.620 set things, I live my whole life a certain way.

01:33:05.920 I'm not changing this for that in this place.

01:33:09.780 And, uh, you know, I know you want to protect me, but I'm not afraid of anything.

01:33:14.080 And they said, well, we're asking you to not try to make a civil rights statement in here

01:33:18.160 because this isn't the real world.

01:33:20.040 You're in a different world and we want you to help us keep order because we don't want

01:33:23.480 to create an environment where the sort of the standard rules that people follow and have

01:33:28.300 for a long, long time are being chipped away at.

01:33:31.240 And so I was sensitive to that.

01:33:33.220 I never stopped, you know, hanging around with people of other color or race. 0.99

01:33:36.980 You didn't say to yourself, I have an opportunity here that is fucking gold. 0.99

01:33:39.880 I said, look, I said, look, for $50,000, just kidding, Gup. 0.98

01:33:48.120 Some final thoughts with Blago after this.

01:33:54.900 Let me ask you this, what I think probably the reading you enjoyed a lot.

01:33:58.960 I understand you formed a jailhouse band as well.

01:34:02.140 You're a big Elvis fan, Jailhouse Rocks.

01:34:04.140 I love it.

01:34:05.160 What was the best part of prison?

01:34:07.020 Weird question, but what was the best part if there was one?

01:34:09.060 Well, the best part was the day I left by far.

01:34:12.220 Yeah, that day was fantastic.

01:34:13.860 That was effing golden.

01:34:15.700 What did the other prisoners do when you when you left?

01:34:18.520 Well, there were some false starts.

01:34:19.860 So, for example, President Trump had called Patty in July of 2019 to tell her that he was

01:34:28.320 going to send me home in a few days.

01:34:31.200 And this was before that Ukrainian phone call.

01:34:33.340 Well, God bless the President Trump, because what happened then was now suddenly days after

01:34:37.900 he called Patty to say he was sending me home, the Democrats created a fake issue on the phone

01:34:45.540 call to President Zelensky, of all people, regarding Hunter Biden and Burisma and all that stuff

01:34:50.760 in Ukraine.

01:34:51.420 A perfectly legitimate phone call by President Trump.

01:34:54.980 And so they were going to make this a big political issue.

01:34:56.900 So that slowed down.

01:34:58.380 So when that happened, I knew that politically he was in no place to be able to send me home

01:35:02.320 because the Republican congressman from Illinois wrote him a letter urging him not to send me home.

01:35:07.640 And then Governor Pritzker, who was on those FBI tapes, asking me to make him a senator.

01:35:11.420 He called him a couple of times.

01:35:14.020 So I was held up.

01:35:17.620 In other words, I couldn't leave at that time like I thought I was going to leave.

01:35:21.140 But it looked like I was going to leave in August.

01:35:24.640 And so the prison guards, the correctional officers, came to my room at five in the morning

01:35:30.680 and they said, let's go.

01:35:31.960 He's sending you home.

01:35:32.760 You're getting clemency.

01:35:33.740 Get your stuff.

01:35:34.400 Get your stuff.

01:35:34.800 They rush you out of there.

01:35:36.100 And so there were a bunch of guys and the officers were surrounding me.

01:35:39.720 This is very unusual in prison.

01:35:41.020 That something like this happens.

01:35:43.080 And so they separated the guys that were working the early morning shift.

01:35:46.220 And there's a lot of the guys that are up that early in two different lines to make way for me.

01:35:51.540 And they were being told by the officers.

01:35:53.520 There were several of them there to handle this because I had to take all my books and stuff with me

01:35:57.900 to tell all these guys.

01:35:59.400 Nobody talks to them.

01:36:00.280 Nobody says anything as I'm leaving.

01:36:03.300 And so as I walk out and I think I'm leaving then in August, they were there amazed at the whole thing.

01:36:09.980 And a lot of these guys were my friends.

01:36:11.160 I'd been with them for so long.

01:36:12.620 I turned back to them and I said this, Megan.

01:36:14.480 Of course, I don't mean this, but I said to them, can I swear here?

01:36:18.660 Yes, yes, you can swear.

01:36:19.840 Can I?

01:36:20.260 I'm going to say this as I said it.

01:36:22.040 Is that okay?

01:36:22.880 Yeah, yeah.

01:36:23.360 So I just turned to all of them. 1.00

01:36:25.060 I said, hey, when I'm president, pardons for all you motherfuckers. 1.00

01:36:29.840 And so I thought I was going home that day. 0.99

01:36:34.280 And it turned out six, eight hours later, after I was in a cell for hours doing pushups

01:36:38.700 and working on my reentry remarks, I was sent back up to the camp and the commutation was

01:36:44.160 pulled back and I had to wait.

01:36:46.540 Oh, my gosh.

01:36:46.920 I wasn't sure that it would happen.

01:36:48.100 What?

01:36:48.840 Oh, my gosh.

01:36:49.640 I mean, just like the false taste of freedom.

01:36:52.900 But then it did come.

01:36:53.960 I mean, one day you did get out.

01:36:56.220 You went back home.

01:36:57.560 There was Patty, your girls.

01:37:00.500 And here's where I want to get to how things are going now, because when I watched that

01:37:05.700 documentary, I was worried about the state of your marriage.

01:37:09.720 Patty very clearly does not want you to run for office. 0.99

01:37:14.700 He was there's an opportunity for him to run.

01:37:16.860 Would you think about it?

01:37:17.740 Or is it just like you're just like, I'm done.

01:37:19.520 You're not doing it or I'm not.

01:37:21.760 I don't want to be part of it.

01:37:22.720 Yeah, that's a hard no for me.

01:37:24.780 Yeah.

01:37:25.540 Look, we're all free to do, you know, live our lives.

01:37:28.000 And if he wants to follow some political path, it's like he's doing that without me.

01:37:31.860 Unfortunately, I can't do it again.

01:37:33.520 But you, like I say, you're like a moth to the flame when it comes to, you know, the cameras

01:37:40.460 and this this weird game of politics.

01:37:42.900 And I saw a man who is not going to be able to stop himself.

01:37:46.820 And I saw a woman resolved to leave that man if he throws him his hat back into the political 0.86

01:37:52.020 arena and a woman who's kind of already irritated because you missed the past eight years. 1.00

01:37:57.120 And, you know, I'm sure her I'm sure her reserves for drama from Rod are pretty filled.

01:38:02.800 So what's what like what you got?

01:38:06.600 Like, what are you going to do?

01:38:07.500 Because I think you really are at a point where you're going to have to choose if they

01:38:10.620 clear the way for you to run again, you're going to have to choose when your marriage 1.00

01:38:12.940 and your career.

01:38:14.380 Yes.

01:38:14.620 And by the way, I can't run for state or local office.

01:38:17.240 They passed a law only against me, which I insist is unconstitutional.

01:38:19.980 And he said that I am free to run for federal office.

01:38:22.540 I couldn't run.

01:38:23.120 You definitely sound like somebody who's not considering it.

01:38:25.080 I could run for the United States Senate.

01:38:26.440 I could run for Congress again, which I wouldn't do. 0.62

01:38:29.380 I could run for president of the United States, which is ridiculous, which I wouldn't do.

01:38:32.520 I'm for President Trump.

01:38:33.640 But no, I could run for the United States Senate.

01:38:35.780 And believe it or not, some people have actually suggested that.

01:38:37.660 Having said that, if you're asking me, you know, what decision would I make?

01:38:41.120 It's a no brainer.

01:38:41.980 Are you kidding?

01:38:42.860 I'm choosing my wife and her happiness and my children over a political career.

01:38:47.260 I would never do it if she wasn't on board.

01:38:49.900 And, you know, I want to serve.

01:38:51.260 I want to do I want to do things that are meaningful.

01:38:53.680 I'm making a documentary film on crime in Chicago.

01:38:57.140 That's where my focus is.

01:38:58.400 We're going to pre-production in two weeks.

01:38:59.800 It's going to be called Black and Blue, dealing with the mistrust between the black community,

01:39:04.320 the police and vice versa.

01:39:05.700 That's timely.

01:39:06.720 And all these complicated reasons why we have so much violence in Chicago.

01:39:10.360 These crazy Democrats on defund the police, abolish the police and that kind of stuff.

01:39:14.940 It's going to be an in-depth look.

01:39:16.580 I think I'm the perfect guy to be able to do something like this because I've been on both

01:39:20.180 sides of that issue, you know.

01:39:22.300 So that's where my focus is.

01:39:23.780 I would never do to Patty something like that after what she's been through.

01:39:27.900 You know, after I was elected, I was arrested, Megan.

01:39:30.680 You know, you learn these things along the way, but they bet on everything in Las Vegas

01:39:34.080 and the Vegas oddsmakers within a couple of days of my arrest were taking odds.

01:39:38.540 And it was nine to one, nine to one that she wasn't going to stay.

01:39:43.520 And what she did.

01:39:44.620 And I know it was a matter of statistical fact that if an inmate's in prison, a man is in

01:39:49.400 prison for four years or more, there's a better than 90% chance statistically that she doesn't 0.98

01:39:54.680 stick around, especially when the guy has a lot more time to do.

01:39:57.640 And had President Trump not intervened, I'd still be there till May of 2024.

01:40:02.620 So Patty has defied all the odds.

01:40:05.180 She's a wonderful wife, as I hope you know.

01:40:08.700 Better than that, she's a wonderful mother.

01:40:10.660 And she raised our daughter.

01:40:12.720 She's a successful businesswoman. 1.00

01:40:14.140 But when I watch you and when I listen to you today, I think you're worried about your

01:40:16.960 legacy, like you said, my obituary.

01:40:18.780 And you can't you can't think about that.

01:40:20.560 You can't fix that.

01:40:21.500 Right.

01:40:21.780 Like, yes, it'll say convicted felon.

01:40:23.840 OK, I mean, you know, so will Martha Stewart's.

01:40:27.260 But like, what if you go on and lead the rest of your life in a way that's totally loving

01:40:32.820 and supportive towards your family and makes a difference with your cultural commentary

01:40:36.480 through documentaries or media or whatever your choice is?

01:40:40.780 Like, wouldn't that be a better road?

01:40:43.180 Truly, then I'm trying to speak to the real you now, not the one who's speaking on camera

01:40:47.600 and like, you know, public person.

01:40:49.100 But like, wouldn't that be a better road than, oh, returns from fallen becomes, you

01:40:54.440 know, U.S.

01:40:54.960 Senator.

01:40:56.000 Oh, you know, the now single Rod Blagojevich and Patty's off and she marries some young,

01:41:01.580 hot dude.

01:41:02.280 And you're like, mother.

01:41:04.120 And then you're going to find it's not as fulfilling as you thought it was going to be

01:41:07.320 back at the quote top, which really isn't the top because politics is a cesspool.

01:41:12.300 Don't do it.

01:41:13.340 You know, you let's you got to show us that you learned something in prison.

01:41:15.940 And that is what you know what what to prioritize.

01:41:18.060 Right.

01:41:18.660 I love what you're saying.

01:41:19.600 You can appreciate this.

01:41:20.360 There's an old Irish prayer that says even God can't make two mountains without a valley

01:41:24.480 in between.

01:41:25.400 So I am climbing out of that mountain.

01:41:27.600 I mean, out of that valley I was in.

01:41:29.100 I'm trying to climb back up the mountain.

01:41:30.860 But I think you're right.

01:41:31.520 It should be a better mountain, a different mountain and a better mountain.

01:41:34.560 Look, if I somehow became a United States senator, that changes my obituary.

01:41:39.040 That would be the greatest political comeback ever.

01:41:41.120 Whoever comes out of prison like that and does something like that.

01:41:44.080 So from an ego standpoint, that's a very persuasive argument.

01:41:47.420 I am suspicious of you.

01:41:48.980 No, no, no.

01:41:50.060 And I have this, believe it or not.

01:41:52.220 I have all these books you see.

01:41:53.360 And I've, I even read those before prison.

01:41:56.000 So I have this belief, you know, this historical sense and all of that, that means something

01:42:01.420 to me.

01:42:02.120 But no, everything you just said is absolutely right.

01:42:04.160 When you balance what Patty's been through, a loving and devoted wife and mother, daughter-in-law,

01:42:10.440 how good she was to my late mother, a wonderful sister and a wonderful daughter.

01:42:14.100 She's just a wonderful person.

01:42:15.480 The unhappiness that she's had to go through and suffer through what my daughters have had

01:42:19.120 to go through and I've been given this unbelievable new beginning by President Trump through the

01:42:24.700 hand of God, which I believe it isn't for me to be selfish and just do what I want to

01:42:29.280 do like it used to be in that career that I was in.

01:42:32.220 And then you're right that I become a U.S.

01:42:34.060 Senator.

01:42:34.380 Let's say hypothetically that happens when I'm around a bunch of other U.S.

01:42:37.420 senators.

01:42:37.720 I know U.S. senators, they're pansies, they're politicians, they're fates. 0.53

01:42:42.800 They don't do a lot.

01:42:43.540 They talk a lot.

01:42:44.540 So I'd be in that world and then she wouldn't be with me.

01:42:48.140 It would be almost biblical for me to screw up like that, wouldn't it?

01:42:52.580 And it would be the wrong thing to do.

01:42:54.080 And forget about my happiness.

01:42:55.560 It's their happiness.

01:42:56.800 If you start to waver, call me up.

01:42:58.980 Pardon me?

01:42:59.700 If you start to waver, you call me up and I will redirect you.

01:43:04.260 Now that we bonded in this way, I feel like I can say that to you.

01:43:07.720 So let's talk for one second, because you mentioned the crime in Chicago and we covered

01:43:11.200 a lot on this show.

01:43:12.100 And I wonder if somebody, as you say, who's kind of been on both sides.

01:43:14.600 I mean, it's a disaster.

01:43:15.960 And Kim Foxx, who's totally light on crime, this another George Soros based D.A.

01:43:20.760 who doesn't want to prosecute crime.

01:43:22.220 And you've been a D.A.

01:43:23.120 So, you know, you understand, you know, you need to do it.

01:43:25.660 You shouldn't run for that office if you don't actually want to prosecute crime in a

01:43:29.500 city that's got a record murder rate.

01:43:32.360 Chicago's changed dramatically.

01:43:33.620 As I said, I used to live there, you know, back in whatever, late 90s.

01:43:37.720 Early 2000s.

01:43:38.820 It's a shadow of its former self.

01:43:40.800 The great John Cass writes about it all the time on his his website.

01:43:45.400 What do you think?

01:43:46.320 You know, you go to prison, you come out all these years later, you look around at your

01:43:49.480 great home state in Chicago and think to yourself, what?

01:43:53.680 Wow.

01:43:54.060 Has the world changed?

01:43:55.700 Boy, the Democratic Party, the party of JFK, President Kennedy, this is not President

01:44:02.580 Kennedy's Democratic Party.

01:44:03.560 He wouldn't be a Democrat today in this Democratic Party.

01:44:05.940 The Democratic Party I was in was the party that was on the side of the working guy, the 0.52

01:44:09.540 little guy, the men and women to go to work every single day.

01:44:12.240 We felt there.

01:44:13.620 You know, we were concerned about their issues, concerned about the burdens that they face,

01:44:17.940 tried to make their lives a little better.

01:44:19.200 At least that's what I used to tell myself.

01:44:20.960 And so our policies were focused on trying to address their concerns.

01:44:23.960 And the biggest concern, the biggest responsibility of government starts with public safety.

01:44:28.000 That's why we have government.

01:44:28.960 We used to be a party that supported the police, enthusiastically embraced the police, chased

01:44:33.900 the police to take photographs with us, to be in our political pamphlets and on our television

01:44:37.840 commercials.

01:44:38.860 And so I've come back to a political party that's just the opposite.

01:44:42.100 Now, there have always been bad cops.

01:44:43.620 You disagree with me. 0.99

01:44:44.860 I'm telling you, I spent all that time in prison because of dirty, rotten, bad cops, 0.99

01:44:48.600 those corrupt prosecutors, Fitzgerald and those other people. 0.97

01:44:51.340 But in spite of that, I know that for every bad cop, there's a thousand good ones.

01:44:56.040 And where would we be without the police?

01:44:58.440 And I would sit in prison on that bunk of mine from time to time and fear would creep

01:45:04.180 in.

01:45:04.720 Who's protecting my children?

01:45:06.000 My wife and my little girls are in our home all by themselves.

01:45:09.200 We've had two shootings in front of my house over the last six weeks.

01:45:12.120 There have been two shootings.

01:45:12.900 The most recent was only three weeks ago.

01:45:15.960 And so the neighborhood we live in is a nice neighborhood.

01:45:18.220 But just to the other side of a couple of streets is a gangbanger neighborhood. 0.97

01:45:22.300 Always been like that.

01:45:23.640 So who's protecting my family?

01:45:25.040 17th District Police Officers.

01:45:26.540 And I know what they do, what they mean to the communities, that they are sworn to protect

01:45:31.720 their duty.

01:45:32.500 And most of them do a great job doing it.

01:45:34.780 And they risk their lives every day when they leave home.

01:45:37.460 They kiss their wife goodbye or she kisses her husband goodbye. 0.65

01:45:40.160 And they go to work.

01:45:41.360 And you never know whether they'll come home from work.

01:45:43.540 They have an unusual occupational hazard that they face.

01:45:46.560 And for Democratic politicians, they'll abandon them because they're afraid of these crazy left-wing

01:45:52.120 activists that defund the police movement, the abolitionists who are Marxists who've creeped

01:45:57.520 into the Democratic Party.

01:45:58.720 And that's where the energy is in today's Democratic Party.

01:46:02.120 They're selling out the constituency that has made up the Democratic Party.

01:46:05.480 And the principal constituency, the one that suffers the most, is the black community. 0.99

01:46:10.060 Because 75% of the murders in Chicago are black people. 0.99

01:46:13.160 And when you take police out of the black neighborhoods, the gangbangers run rampant. 0.99

01:46:17.500 And I know, because I lived with criminals for eight years.

01:46:21.320 When the cops aren't around, it's, you know, the cat's away, the mice play.

01:46:26.500 And criminals are criminals.

01:46:28.260 This is what they do for a living.

01:46:29.900 It's their way of life.

01:46:32.420 A lot of them aren't bad guys, the guys I was with.

01:46:35.080 But this is what they do for a living.

01:46:37.200 This is their livelihood.

01:46:38.400 And when the police are weak, when they're on the run, they're not being defended by the

01:46:43.120 political leaders, but they're being sold out by the Democratic political leaders like

01:46:46.720 our Mayor Lightfoot, our Governor Pritzker, and others around America. 1.00

01:46:51.500 The gangbangers aren't stupid. 0.99

01:46:53.020 They know. 1.00

01:46:53.840 And so they run rampant.

01:46:54.820 So we have record numbers of murders in Chicago, carjackings, snatching, grabings.

01:46:59.460 Grab robberies.

01:47:00.300 We had a gangbanger, 11 years old, just carjacked a vehicle two weeks ago here in Chicago, 11

01:47:05.340 years old, a six-year-old.

01:47:06.600 And Chicago is the city where they've basically said, ignore it.

01:47:10.620 If it's gang on gang, murder.

01:47:12.540 Ignore it.

01:47:12.980 Even if there's an eyewitness, it's like, you know, whatever.

01:47:15.540 OK, so that's, you know, you're going to get a lot more of that.

01:47:18.080 And people get caught, innocent people get caught in the crossfire, like four-year-old

01:47:21.660 little girls at McDonald's and so on.

01:47:24.340 So what happens then?

01:47:25.500 Now, I'm not saying you're going to run for office, but you may get out there and support

01:47:29.140 somebody.

01:47:29.620 You may get out there and use your voice.

01:47:31.280 And you're right.

01:47:31.920 You have a unique credibility on this issue.

01:47:33.840 You've been both a DA and an inmate.

01:47:37.960 I mean, that's very extraordinary.

01:47:40.920 So what do you, I know you're a Trumpocrat.

01:47:43.020 And I think there are a lot of Trumpocrats, you know, Democrats who crossed over to vote

01:47:45.920 for President Trump.

01:47:46.880 Let's assume he doesn't run next time.

01:47:48.500 I assume you're going to, you would support him, the guy who commuted your sentence.

01:47:51.360 But if he doesn't run, you see yourself voting for a different Republican or for Joe Biden?

01:47:58.840 Well, not for Joe Biden.

01:48:01.680 No, not for Joe Biden.

01:48:03.360 Probably a different Republican.

01:48:04.400 But my heart's set on President Trump.

01:48:05.740 I think he's going to run.

01:48:06.440 I think he's going to win.

01:48:07.020 I really do.

01:48:07.960 And I can go into all kinds of details on why I think that'll happen.

01:48:10.620 But, you know, I feel like back on the crime issue, as you said, I think I can do a lot

01:48:16.240 more good on my documentary on crime in Chicago that could serve the public far better than

01:48:21.840 me ever being, let's say, hypothetically, a United States senator and giving a speech

01:48:25.060 in the Senate where no one's listening and no one's even in the chamber when they give

01:48:28.580 these speeches, right?

01:48:29.920 You got a little of the Trump TV magic in you, too, and you could put that to use in a different

01:48:34.660 way.

01:48:35.460 Thank you for saying that.

01:48:37.260 Yeah.

01:48:37.660 So I'm really excited about my documentary.

01:48:39.200 And I feel that's a way, that's my way back to do service that way.

01:48:43.200 You can also, if you're successful, earn a good living, hopefully.

01:48:47.060 I would like to be able to be successful in doing something like this that's meaningful

01:48:49.680 on a topic that I know so much about.

01:48:51.560 And I have street cred.

01:48:52.700 You see, I have real street cred, twofold.

01:48:55.020 Number one, in the African-American community, the black community, my last election, I got

01:48:59.000 96% of the black vote.

01:49:00.820 In the Democratic primary for governor in 2006, 95% of the black vote against another Democrat.

01:49:07.000 I mean, only Obama gets that.

01:49:08.280 So I've had great success in the black community politically.

01:49:11.820 Then I've had this happen to me.

01:49:13.900 And in the black community, because they have very real reasons to be mistrustful of the

01:49:18.120 police, I think there's a lot of belief that what I can talk about on these issues, I understand

01:49:25.060 some of the difficulties that they face.

01:49:26.720 And so therefore, I think I can serve a lot of good that way.

01:49:29.820 And then the other part about street cred is one advantage when you go to prison like I've

01:49:33.220 been at the higher one in particular, because they don't like snitches there, Megan. 0.99

01:49:37.980 There's a saying in prison, stitches for snitches, and snitches are bitches, right? 1.00

01:49:43.780 And they will screw guys up. 1.00

01:49:45.440 They'll laugh them up if they're snitching on them. 1.00

01:49:49.020 That's part of the code of practice among the inmates.

01:49:51.760 But one of the advantages, there's no advantage, I should take that back.

01:49:56.320 But a positive of having a 14-year sentence when you have to live in that community is

01:50:02.780 they know you didn't tell on anybody.

01:50:05.720 You didn't snitch on anybody.

01:50:07.040 Because if you did, you'd have had a real life sentence.

01:50:09.400 And so that gives you street cred in that world.

01:50:11.540 And therefore, you can communicate and you can develop relationships like I did there

01:50:16.840 all that time.

01:50:18.300 And I feel like that kind of street cred will help me in my documentary.

01:50:22.220 And I would love to make a great documentary that can actually help reduce crime and make

01:50:26.580 our community safer.

01:50:27.540 What's it going to be called?

01:50:28.480 Do you have a name yet?

01:50:29.900 Yeah, Black and Blue.

01:50:31.260 Black and Blue.

01:50:31.620 Oh, you mentioned that.

01:50:32.100 Okay.

01:50:32.240 And when does it come out?

01:50:32.980 Or is that unclear?

01:50:34.500 So no, the goal is to get it out right after Labor Day, pre-production in about two weeks,

01:50:39.880 editing in June, July.

01:50:42.160 And got real good producers involved.

01:50:46.040 Joel Cheatwood is a guy who used to be at NBC here in Chicago.

01:50:48.160 Yeah, I love Joel Cheatwood.

01:50:49.760 We work with him at Fox.

01:50:50.780 He's brilliant.

01:50:52.600 Yeah.

01:50:53.020 And there's a guy by the name of Joel Weasel, who's a documentary filmmaker, who's doing

01:50:56.800 a documentary right now in the Peter Schweitzer book on China and the Bidens and the Bushes

01:51:02.380 and the politicians who sell out our country to China.

01:51:05.480 Listen, if there's anything America loves, it is a comeback.

01:51:09.480 And I think I speak for a lot of people when I say I look forward to watching you climb

01:51:14.300 that second mountain, hopefully away from a Senate race or anything that would cost you

01:51:20.240 so dearly at home.

01:51:22.160 Rod Blagojevich, thank you so much for coming on and having such an open, feisty, fun discussion.

01:51:27.120 Thank you, Megan.

01:51:28.260 And thanks again for the inspiration for my daughters.

01:51:30.600 Appreciate you.

01:51:31.160 You bet.

01:51:31.920 All the best to you guys.

01:51:32.980 Thanks.

01:51:33.940 Wow.

01:51:34.440 And thanks to all of you for joining us today and all week.

01:51:37.460 And remember, you can download the show, Megan Kelly Show on Apple, Pandora, Spotify,

01:51:41.140 and Stitcher.

01:51:41.920 Please go ahead and subscribe while you're there and subscribe for our video version as

01:51:46.780 well at youtube.com slash Megan Kelly.

01:51:52.660 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:51:54.580 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 04, 2022

Rod Blagojevich on Corruption in Politics, Overcoming Adversity, and the State of the Democratic Party ｜ Ep. 274

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