The Megyn Kelly Show - Rumblings on Epstein ＂Client List,＂ Kohberger Inspiration, and Grandma on Trial For Son-in-Law's Murder, with Dave Aronberg and Viva Frei ｜ Ep. 1106

00:00:00.580 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.180 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Friday and happy

00:00:17.480 birthday, Linda. It's my mom's birthday today. Love her a lot and I know she's listening.

00:00:23.680 Okay, so we had to end this week with the Kelly's Court with so much news going on. We've got

00:00:27.940 updates on Epstein, Brian Kohlberger, Diddy, and a shocking case in Florida that's about to get

00:00:34.400 underway with cameras in the courtroom next month, where a mother-in-law is charged with a murder

00:00:42.580 for hire of her daughter's ex-husband. Here to break it down, former state attorney for Palm Beach

00:00:48.960 County, Florida, managing partner now of Dave Ehrenberg Law, Dave Ehrenberg, and he's also

00:00:53.960 the author of the new book, Fighting the Florida Shuffle. And along with Dave, we've got former

00:00:59.840 litigator and rumble creator, Viva Fry. This is a great panel. Okay, if you want to know about

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00:01:46.280 and get some hot salt before it's all gone. You'll thank me. Guys, thank you both so much for being

00:01:51.160 here. Thank you for having us. Thank you and happy birthday, Linda. Yeah, happy birthday,

00:01:56.380 Linda, 84 years young. She's having a great day and I'm looking forward to seeing her to celebrate

00:02:02.620 in person. Okay, so here is where we're going to start. Epstein. A lot going on. We all know what

00:02:09.260 the Trump administration did this week. Now we're getting dribs and drabs. And by the way,

00:02:14.100 I said about 18 months ago on this show that people would be hearing from Jeffrey Epstein.

00:02:20.240 And then I made clear that he's not alive. I was never suggesting that, but I knew of tapes of

00:02:27.480 Jeffrey Epstein that would get released. And let's just say I stand by my story. I mean, it's still 100%

00:02:35.060 just stand by. Okay. By the way, some already were released right before the election that were

00:02:40.680 largely ignored because it was right before the election, but they're not done. There will be

00:02:46.140 more. And you can trust me, trust me. I don't say things I can't back up. Okay. So that's happening.

00:02:51.860 In any event, back to the actual substance. There's a clip of Alan Dershowitz that's gone totally viral.

00:02:59.020 It was from an interview he gave Sean Spicer back in March. I'm going to play it for you. I'm going to

00:03:04.540 update it for you. And then we're going to talk about what, if anything, it all means for what

00:03:09.060 we're supposed to believe about the FBI's files. Here it is. So let me tell you, I know for a fact

00:03:15.040 documents are being suppressed and they're being suppressed to protect individuals. I know the

00:03:19.760 names of the individuals. I know why they're being suppressed. I know who's suppressing them,

00:03:24.480 but I'm bound by confidentiality, uh, from a judge and cases, and I can't disclose what I know,

00:03:31.540 but I pan to God. I know, I know the names of people whose files are being suppressed in order

00:03:39.080 to protect them. And that's wrong.

00:03:41.740 Just out of curiosity, without names, are these politicians, business leaders, both?

00:03:46.900 They're everything. Um, and let, let me tell you a lot of them are, uh, at least one of them is

00:03:53.600 somebody who was accused. Uh, others are accusers. And the judges have said, if somebody calls themselves

00:04:00.220 a victim, a victim, we're not going to give any information about them, but they may not be

00:04:05.480 victims. They may be perpetrators. So we don't have information about false accusers. And we know

00:04:11.500 there have been many false accusers who have accused innocent people for money. And those records are

00:04:17.280 being deliberately willfully suppressed. Very interesting. Um, everyone, that's sort of a

00:04:24.760 roar shark test for how you feel about this case, because people who believe the FBI is withholding

00:04:29.660 names of like a pedophile ring, focus on the first half and people who don't focus on the second half.

00:04:35.780 We know Alan very well. We covered very, very closely. Virginia Dufres accusations against him.

00:04:43.240 He came on the show when it was in its infancy. And we did a very deep dive into all of it.

00:04:48.980 Alan has been totally exonerated on those accusations. He disproved this woman's accusations with

00:04:54.620 actual receipts and plane tickets and so on. None of it held up. And ultimately, not surprisingly,

00:05:01.340 she withdrew her suit against him and confess. She may have confused him with someone else,

00:05:07.140 which is the best you're going to get as a guy who gets accused in these cases falsely.

00:05:10.800 But we reached out to him about this soundbite. And he said, I did not talk about a client list.

00:05:17.360 He said to us, let me tell you what the situation is. Um, there are redacted statements in the FBI's

00:05:24.360 filed by the accuser, the same woman who accused me, Virginia Dufresne. In her statement to the FBI,

00:05:30.460 she never mentioned me because she never heard of me. She didn't know me. But in the statement

00:05:35.480 to the FBI, she did accuse a bunch of other people and their names are in the report. But the report

00:05:41.800 has been redacted. That's been censored, kept secret. I've seen it. However, I do know who's in

00:05:49.020 that list. And I know a couple of other people who have been accused as well. I don't know whether

00:05:55.760 or not they actually did anything wrong. I know they were accused mostly by the same woman who

00:06:02.400 falsely accused me. We're talking about Virginia Dufresne. And one of the things that's been 0.81

00:06:06.800 suppressed is all the information that is negative to the accusers, the information that proves the

00:06:12.460 accusers made up the stories. So it's much more complicated. There's no client list. He says,

00:06:18.180 there are names of people who are accused and there are names of people who falsely accuse them.

00:06:25.320 That's all there is. It's a redacted FBI report, which in which Virginia Dufresne names people.

00:06:32.180 And I know who the people are. And the court has kept the list secret and has refused to unredact

00:06:37.840 the list. Okay. So what he seems to be saying, guys, is it's not just Alan who was accused by

00:06:45.600 Virginia or Prince Andrew, who was accused by Virginia or Epstein, who was accused by Virginia,

00:06:50.620 the list goes on, but that, and there appears to be more than just Virginia as an accuser in these

00:06:55.720 files, but she's got a very sketchy history with the truth. She's recently deceased, but there's no

00:07:03.780 question. Virginia lied about Alan and I'm sure she did lie about others. And so he's basically saying

00:07:10.120 the so-called files are more ambiguous than people who believe there's a mass pedophile ring would want

00:07:18.400 you to believe. And, um, Alan believes it should all be released and that these other guys who get

00:07:24.480 accused in these files should have to defend themselves the same way Alan had to by, you know,

00:07:30.540 disputing each charge. He doesn't like what's happening with either a court holding back redacted

00:07:35.100 documents or the FBI just sort of saying in a sweeping manner, there's nothing to see here.

00:07:41.160 Move on. Viva, I'll start with you on it and then I'll get to you, Dave.

00:07:43.920 Well, we're using this term client list in a very, uh, you know, convenient manner where you,

00:07:50.180 it either has a strict definition that can be weaseled out of. So they say it's not a client list.

00:07:53.980 I think everybody understands what is meant by the client list, unindicted co-conspirators or the

00:08:00.540 actual clients of Jeffrey Epstein, not as said by Pam Bondi on pass on for a Fox interview as put to

00:08:07.240 a letter that she signed to cash Patel in February, 2025, where she says, I've got a list of Jeffrey

00:08:14.120 Epstein and his clients. That that's what people want to understand and want to know here. Not

00:08:18.780 whether or not there's a mass pedophile listening at a client list. Here's Mr. Jane Doe's favorite,

00:08:23.780 you know, uh, person, whatever. They want to know who was involved in the sex trafficking ring

00:08:29.200 that involved thousands of people that spanned decades that warranted him setting up cameras in

00:08:35.620 his Island so that he could capture videos, not of himself only with these ladies, with these women

00:08:41.400 and girls, but the people who went to his Island. People have been told for years that there were

00:08:47.140 unindicted co-conspirators, that there were other people involved in the sex trafficking.

00:08:50.880 You don't go to jail for sex trafficking to nobody but yourself and then come out later and say,

00:08:55.740 there is no client list. There is no unindicted co-conspirators. And when Pam Bondi

00:08:59.080 wrote in a letter that we have Epstein and a list of his clients that she didn't mean

00:09:03.820 a list of his clients. So whether or not it has the title client list, people I say not have been

00:09:08.900 led to believe. It only stands to reason from everything that we've known for the last decade

00:09:13.180 plus. Other people were involved as Dershowitz says, either as false accusers or as accused

00:09:19.220 because Epstein wasn't doing this for himself. The videos that they had at his place that they

00:09:23.500 seized were not only of himself. They are ambiguous as to whether or not it was child pornography

00:09:27.660 that was downloaded or produced. And now they just want to sweep it under the rug with an

00:09:32.340 unsigned, undated memo uploaded to the DOJ after it's leaked to Axios. Don't expect anybody to believe

00:09:37.500 that. Go ahead, Dave. Yes, I have a lot of respect for Professor Dershowitz. He was my law professor.

00:09:44.400 And you don't have to just trust or believe him about Virginia Dufresne's credibility issues

00:09:51.420 because prosecutors felt the same way. That's why she was not called to testify in the Ghislaine

00:09:56.600 Maxwell trial. And so, yes, she did have credibility issues. And as far as what's still

00:10:03.240 out there, one thing that I'm interested in is what's on the thumb drives that were taken from

00:10:08.580 Jeffrey Epstein's apartment on July 6th and 7th of 2019 when the authorities raided his place and had

00:10:16.880 to use a saw to get into his safe. And they recovered a bunch of thumb drives. It's not clear

00:10:22.380 whether the contents of that have ever been disclosed. And as you correctly said-

00:10:28.160 Just to confirm what you said, Dave, because I lost it. Did you say his place in Florida or his

00:10:32.900 place in New York? New York. This is from New York.

00:10:35.260 Okay. Yeah.

00:10:36.060 And yeah, there was a safe there and they had to use a saw to get in it and they recovered all

00:10:39.940 these thumb drives. And it's not clear whether that's ever been made public. They found cash,

00:10:45.340 diamonds, and passports in these thumb drives. Now, part of the problem is that you're dealing

00:10:51.640 with, as you correctly said, judges who have put a kibosh on it, as well as a decision by the FBI.

00:10:58.000 I think the FBI's decision is more discretionary because they are trying to protect names of victims,

00:11:05.180 child porn, and all these things that they don't want disclosed.

00:11:08.080 If there are names of individuals who are directly tied to this, then it should be disclosed. And

00:11:13.340 even if there are names of people who are affiliated, like in the Black Book, who are not

00:11:18.240 part of Epstein Island, I think the public is sophisticated enough where if you release everyone's

00:11:23.680 names, they can sort out who was part of the pedophilia ring and who just was an associate,

00:11:29.000 someone who knew Jeffrey Epstein. Just because you're in his Black Book, just because you knew him,

00:11:32.140 doesn't mean you're a pedophile. But I think the FBI and the Trump administration is being very

00:11:37.300 careful about that. They don't want to tar people who are not guilty of any crimes. And perhaps the

00:11:41.820 president himself is concerned, himself being mentioned in that same category, even though

00:11:46.300 there's no proof he committed any of the crimes. So I get why they're very careful. But until you

00:11:51.700 be more transparent, you're going to have all these questions out there and all these bloggers,

00:11:55.620 and Viva is right to ask these questions. And so they're going to have to do something because

00:11:59.840 this story is not going away. There's a woman, I want to make sure I have her title correct. Her name 0.98

00:12:07.140 is Sigrid McCauley. And she's an attorney representing people who are suing Epstein's

00:12:13.480 former accountant. This is one of the last Epstein cases that's in federal court. She went on News Nation,

00:12:21.620 spoke to Elizabeth Vargas, I think on Wednesday. And here's what she said. Take a listen to Sop 4.

00:12:27.980 What's really just astonishing about this recent disclosure from the government is that they know

00:12:36.200 they are sitting on a treasure trove of information and they're not turning it over. And I've worked on

00:12:40.900 these cases for over 10 years now. There's a plethora of information that the public has not been able

00:12:45.820 to see relating to Epstein and his co-conspirators. What kind of information? All kinds of information.

00:12:53.760 Certainly, if you look at what the government recently disclosed, the first time Pam Bondi came out and gave us

00:12:59.340 some information, you'll see a list where they took multiple computers, multiple items from the houses.

00:13:05.880 What was on those computers? The public has not seen that. What do the financial records tell us?

00:13:10.400 Do they tell us that money was being given to him by certain individuals, that money was flowing out to

00:13:15.100 certain individuals? All of that is critical for the public to be able to know.

00:13:18.580 That was a very good last question there, Viva.

00:13:23.180 It's that people were involved in this and we know that video was seized and now we're led to believe

00:13:29.840 a decade later. It was only child pornography and only for Jeffrey Epstein's personal pleasure.

00:13:35.700 It doesn't it doesn't pass the smell test and it's not to hold people to their statements before they

00:13:41.860 were in office. I happen to personally believe Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, what they said for years,

00:13:47.340 what Kash Patel said very recently, December 2023. There's a list. Bill Gates, you don't think Bill

00:13:53.520 Gates is lobbying, you know, the government to not release the list. The bottom line is who went to the

00:14:00.000 island? Why was Ehud Barak visiting Jeffrey Epstein 30 times after he was a known convicted solicitor of

00:14:07.620 child prostitution? Ehud Barak's explanation, I didn't know that he was convicted. My goodness, I do

00:14:13.160 background checks on babysitters. I don't believe that the former prime minister of Israel didn't do

00:14:16.760 background checks on Epstein. And we're sitting here after years and decades of this. Trump promised

00:14:22.040 to, you know, declassify the information. You have Bindergate, you have Bondi on letters saying

00:14:26.960 a list of Epstein's clients. Then you have the Bindergate, which humiliates a bunch of influencers.

00:14:31.700 And then we're told phase one has now turned into nothing. Go home. There's an unsigned memo saying

00:14:36.640 it was all conspiracy and anybody perpetrating or perpetuating this right now is doing a disservice

00:14:42.300 to the victims in the government. I mean, I don't know how you expect people to believe that even

00:14:46.480 if it's true. 10 hours of footage of a cell and we're, you know, we still have questions as to

00:14:51.440 whether or not it's even the right cell is not going to confirm that Epstein killed himself.

00:14:54.960 And even if you have 10 hours of Epstein cell showing nobody went in and checked on him every

00:14:59.520 20 to 30 minutes, a man who was on suicide watch 20 minutes earlier itself is a conspiracy. So,

00:15:04.580 you know, being told to sit down, be quiet and stop asking questions is itself a conspiracy.

00:15:09.240 Mm hmm. What do you make of that, Dave? I mean, I know you've been somewhat defensive

00:15:13.160 of Pam Bondi, who, you know, is a former Florida attorney.

00:15:17.900 I believe she misspoke and I think I believe her when she says that what she was referring

00:15:23.520 to was the file was on her desk, not a client list. There is no evidence that there is a client

00:15:27.920 list, the list of all the Johns out there. I mean, if that existed, Glenn Maxwell would have

00:15:33.540 given that up in exchange for her freedom. There's been no evidence. And I also look to the

00:15:37.320 reporters who were the first ones, the Julie Browns who helped break this story again, at least 0.96

00:15:42.320 put it back in the public's consciousness, Tara Palmieri and others who are close to it. And

00:15:47.900 they have said there is no client list. There's no evidence of any client list. So I think that the

00:15:52.900 sin of the administration perhaps is trying to appease the conspiracy theorists. And now when you're in

00:15:59.040 the role of being in government, you have a different role than you were when you're a blogger,

00:16:04.440 when Bongino and Cash Patel were out there blogging, yes, you can help perpetuate conspiracy

00:16:09.700 theorists. But when you're in charge, you got to deal with facts and they're dealing with the facts.

00:16:14.020 And I think it was an embarrassment to have those individuals with the binders out there on the 1.00

00:16:17.800 lawn. But now that that is the fault of trying to appease people who can't be appeased and who are

00:16:23.600 going to be very angry if they don't get what they in their mind think exists, which is a client list,

00:16:29.100 which is proof that he was killed in prison by Hillary Clinton or something. So I'm with the

00:16:34.880 administration on that. I believe strongly that he killed himself. There is no client list. But I

00:16:40.760 hear what Viva is saying is that if you're going to continue to hold back documents, you're going to

00:16:46.180 open yourself up to questions of transparency and the conspiracy theories are not going away.

00:16:51.220 I know. I just have to say, like, I'm having a revulsion a little to the term conspiracy theorist,

00:16:57.520 conspiracy theorist. Like, I understand why people use that term around it, but I just think this is

00:17:03.300 more. I think, you know, if you think there are aliens running around the United States,

00:17:07.740 yeah, I mean, I'm OK with that. If you think we didn't land on the moon, I think that's a conspiracy

00:17:11.800 theory. If you think there's more to the Jeffrey Epstein story than we're being told, I don't think

00:17:16.480 you're a conspiracy theorist. I think you've been paying attention to mixed messages we've been

00:17:20.880 getting from administrations from Trump 1.0 to Biden to Trump 2.0. But I understand you're

00:17:27.240 short forming, you know, the doubters. Dave, go ahead, Viva. You know, I was going to say,

00:17:30.880 if we can pull up that letter that Pam Bondi wrote to Kash Patel when she was complaining about.

00:17:35.500 Yeah, we have it. Yeah. Pull that up. When they're complaining about the FBN,

00:17:39.540 the FBI's field office in the Southern District of New York, among the corrupt districts in America,

00:17:45.060 withholding, destroying, concealing documents. And she refers to related to Jeffrey Epstein,

00:17:50.880 and his clients. I mean, this is not misspeaking anymore. This is putting it on a letter.

00:17:54.980 But here's what she's saying. It's very small type. This is what you tweeted this out.

00:17:59.360 OK, it's the cover. This is when she's she's purporting to be very angry that she didn't get

00:18:04.340 all of her documents. This is after she's embarrassed the influencers. And she says,

00:18:10.780 Dear Director Patel, for you came into office, I requested the full and complete files related

00:18:14.300 to Epstein. In response to this request, I received approximately 200 pages of documents,

00:18:17.800 which consisted primarily of flight logs, Epstein's list of contacts and a list of victims names and

00:18:23.940 phone numbers. I repeatedly questioned whether this is the full set of documents responsive.

00:18:27.800 I was assured assured by the FBI that we had received the full set of documents.

00:18:32.360 Late yesterday, I learned from a source that the FBI field office in New York was in possession of

00:18:36.860 thousands of pages of documents related to the investigation and indictment of Epstein.

00:18:40.180 Despite my repeated request, the FBI never disclosed the existence of these files.

00:18:43.220 When you and I spoke yesterday, you were just as surprised as I was to learn this new information.

00:18:47.200 Cash had just taken over by 8 a.m. tomorrow, February 28th. The FBI will deliver. Don't forget

00:18:52.380 audience members. The FBI is under DOJ, so she has the power to tell them what to do. 1.00

00:18:56.980 The FBI will deliver the full and complete Epstein files to my office, including all records,

00:19:00.880 documents, audio and video recordings and materials related to Epstein and his clients,

00:19:07.140 regardless of how such information was obtained. There will be no withholdings or limitations

00:19:11.040 to my or your access. The Department of Justice will ensure that any public disclosure will be

00:19:15.660 done in a manner to protect the privacy of the victims, blah, blah, blah. And then I want an

00:19:20.240 investigation into why my order to the FBI was not followed to begin with. So she doesn't say

00:19:26.040 exactly there is an Epstein client list. She says you will deliver all the Epstein files to me,

00:19:34.320 including all records, documents, recordings, materials related to Epstein and his clients.

00:19:39.820 So there's an implication here that she has an understanding. He had clients and she has a

00:19:45.900 belief the FBI has information on it. And one can wheeze a lot of it and say maybe they meant maybe

00:19:51.440 she meant clients in a broader commercial sense, investments, whatever people, business dealings

00:19:55.900 that he was doing business with. But you're dealing in one of the same letter with a apparently

00:20:00.260 patently corrupt field office in the Southern District of New York that is either withholding or

00:20:04.820 destroying evidence, an acknowledgement that Epstein had clients. Now, if the if the answer is those

00:20:10.640 were business clients and not sex trafficking clients, provide the evidence. Nobody's going to

00:20:15.860 Why does she even want that then? Why is she so interested in that? And by the way, when she wrote

00:20:19.480 this letter, it was five days after she said on Fox News to John Roberts, yes, the client list is on my

00:20:26.520 desk. So like, well, it's just a little the timing's pretty close. No. And John Roberts said,

00:20:32.660 is it true that DOJ is going to be releasing a list of Epstein's clients? Will that really happen? And she

00:20:36.600 says the file is on my desk. So that one she could walk out of if you want. She doesn't say the file.

00:20:41.420 She doesn't say the file. That's that's her problem. She had said the files on my desk. There would have

00:20:45.440 been less confusion. She says it's on my desk right now and I'm going through it. And that's what she's now

00:20:52.440 trying to say. That was a reference to the file as opposed to the client list, which was a very

00:20:57.260 specific question that was teed up to her. And she did not expand it by saying, I have a file on my

00:21:02.900 desk. I'm going through. She gave it to John Roberts as though she had. I mean, I don't know

00:21:07.440 why she did that. She may have been in good faith and misspoke or she may have been trying to stir the 1.00

00:21:12.460 pot and sound like I've got juicy stuff and I'm going to give it to you, which is very weird because

00:21:17.960 this is not how United States attorneys general normally talk or handle themselves in media

00:21:23.000 appearances. Go ahead, Viva, and then I'll give it to Dave. I was just going to say, like, the

00:21:27.000 semantics of the client list is getting a little bit not tedious, but it's becoming the the out for

00:21:32.060 anybody who says, well, there's no technical list incriminating, quote, client list. So there might be

00:21:36.360 a list of some people. It's not incriminating or it might not be a client list. It might just be

00:21:40.560 a list of marks, a list of unindicted co-conspirators. And Dave, back in 2019, I did some did some

00:21:47.040 homework just to see if everyone's consistent over the years and you're pretty consistent.

00:21:50.060 But even in 2019, you're acknowledging the existence of unindicted co-conspirators involved

00:21:55.520 in the Epstein sex trafficking ring or whatever operation he was running. And if people are

00:22:01.580 conflating unindicted co-conspirators with a client list of people who are soliciting sex

00:22:07.140 trafficking, OK, fine, people will accept that. But what people will not accept is virtually a 180

00:22:12.680 degree bolt of fast that is so in your face. People are saying there's a reason why the

00:22:16.680 administration has to do this in order to conceal it so that the people who are unindicted co-conspirators

00:22:20.940 think that they somehow got off the hook for the purposes of a more fuller investigation.

00:22:24.580 That's a conspiracy I won't entertain. But transparency is the least of what is needed

00:22:30.180 right now and not, you know, getting defensive and then name calling everybody who is virtually,

00:22:36.600 you know, literally listening to the words of Pam Bondi.

00:22:38.680 Can I can I just say something about Bondi that still doesn't make sense to me, Dave?

00:22:44.360 Um, she comes out on February 21st, I think it was, and says to John Roberts, he says client list

00:22:53.660 being released by the DOJ. She says it's on my desk right now and we're reviewing it. And that's

00:22:59.840 the president's order for transparency, that MLK JFK. Then five days later on Feb 26th,

00:23:08.680 she goes on with Jesse waters and she says, Oh, you're about to get Epstein documents.

00:23:16.840 Let's, let's just say they're coming. Now the next day was the influencer event at the white house

00:23:22.920 where she bragged to them that she had printed out Epstein file, the cover sheet for those binders.

00:23:29.700 And, and they did not know they were there to receive any Epstein information. Liz Wheeler was

00:23:34.460 one of them. She was on the program yesterday and explained, they thought they were going there

00:23:38.620 for like an influencer event to hobnob with the vice president, the president, which they did.

00:23:43.920 And Bandy, Bondi kind of like ambushed them in a way and said, Hey, here's some Epstein documents.

00:23:48.940 So they took them and they walked out the back of the white house and they got photographed with them.

00:23:54.500 But all along, we've been asking, did Bondi know that these things were a nothing burger and like,

00:23:59.740 just try to embarrass some of the president's top allies in the media, or has she just not done 1.00

00:24:04.580 her homework and was negligent about not knowing what's in there and inadvertently embarrassed them.

00:24:10.240 So here's, what's weird. Liz Wheeler says that Bondi that day in giving them the binders was like,

00:24:18.740 yeah, there's, there's not really a lot in here. And the real scandal is the FBI is withholding

00:24:25.440 documents from me and I'm about to like chastise them. And then she dropped that letter. I just

00:24:30.700 read. So according to Liz, but Bondi knew and giving them the binders, there's really no, they're

00:24:36.520 there. Um, so like, you know, just be patient. Cause I'm, I'm rattling cages and I'm going to get

00:24:42.300 whatever the, there, there is. But here was Bondi the night before she gave them the binders

00:24:47.660 on Fox news with Jesse waters. Watch said last week that you have the Epstein files on your desk

00:24:54.480 is when can we see them and what's taking so long to release them? I do Jesse, there are well over

00:25:02.380 this. This will make you sick 200 victims, 200. So we have well over, over 250 actually. So we have to

00:25:11.560 make sure that their identity is protected and their personal information. But other than that,

00:25:19.120 I think tomorrow, you know, the personal information of victims other than that, I think

00:25:23.420 tomorrow, Jesse breaking news right now, you're going to see some Epstein information being released

00:25:29.200 by my office. What kind are we going to see who was on the flights? Are we going to see any evidence

00:25:36.160 from what he recorded because he had all of his homes wired with recording devices?

00:25:41.700 Yeah. What you're going to see hopefully tomorrow is, um, a lot of flight logs, a lot of names,

00:25:48.440 a lot, a lot of information, but, um, it's, it's pretty sick what that man did. Okay. Well,

00:25:55.300 along with his co-defendant. Absolutely. And he had help. That's for sure. He sure did.

00:25:59.880 Mm-hmm. This is just there. She is teasing. You're going to see a lot of information,

00:26:08.540 names and details. You're going to say he was sick. This is a sick, sick man. And according to Liz,

00:26:16.580 Pam body knows she's going to give them a nothing burger. And she actually doesn't have any information, 1.00

00:26:22.420 which supports my theory that Pam Bondi was trying to get on television and say salacious things to 1.00

00:26:29.580 lead people along, to be popular, to get hits on Fox news, even though she didn't have anything.

00:26:37.260 And that's why I'm, I tend to be not exactly in the Viva camp because you have to choose. Do you

00:26:43.100 believe Pam Bondi then, or do you believe her now? And I'm in the camp of, I more believe her now that

00:26:49.660 she actually doesn't have the goods beyond the child sexual assault materials that don't show other 0.98

00:26:54.900 men that just happens to be his sick, illegal, favorite form of pornography. Go ahead, Dave. 0.99

00:27:02.400 It seems though that the interview with Jesse Waters you just showed was pretty consistent with

00:27:06.080 what she told Liz, that she's going to release it and it's going to be flight logs and other things,

00:27:10.860 but she didn't say that this was going to blow your socks off in that interview. So I'm going to give

00:27:16.180 the benefit down on that one. I do understand why you'd be concerned based on the earlier interview

00:27:22.000 where there was an implication that the client list would be released. But as I said, that could

00:27:26.880 also be interpreted as the file was on her desk. That's what she's saying. And I do think that if

00:27:31.520 anything that, you know, you can get caught up in the moment when you go on Fox news and they're

00:27:36.060 pushing you to say, Hey, what's going on? And if you say it's a nothing burger, uh, yeah, it's,

00:27:40.660 it's not a good interview. So perhaps that's, that is a, it is a legitimate issue.

00:27:44.880 Dave, you tell me you, you are a former state's attorney. You know very well how you,

00:27:48.520 how the average, the normal, like literally every other attorney general would answer those

00:27:55.100 questions. Number one, they would not be on television talking about the case. And number

00:27:59.820 two, if for some reason they really felt compelled to go on television, you know, exactly what they'd

00:28:05.160 say. It's an ongoing investigation and I'm not, I'm not at liberty to discuss it yet. Period.

00:28:10.020 Well, she's breaking norms and going on TV, but so is her boss, right? She's taking the cue from 0.85

00:28:16.440 her boss, doing things that no one has ever done before. The boss can do whatever the hell he wants.

00:28:20.260 The president can always do whatever the hell he wants. The attorney general, the top law enforcement

00:28:24.680 officer of the United States under every administration, Republican Democrat, 99% of the

00:28:31.560 time keeps their mouth shut because they don't want to get ahead of the facts. They don't want to get

00:28:36.620 ahead of the investigation. And it's really not appropriate to be commenting because this,

00:28:42.420 this is what can happen. She turned herself into the Brian Williams of DOJs where she just spewed a 1.00

00:28:48.680 bunch of nonsense because she wanted attention and now she's been caught. That's how it looks to me,

00:28:54.120 Viva. I would say, or she didn't, but she said was accurate. And now here we go.

00:29:01.460 We believe her then or believe her now. She hasn't said anything since that memo came out. She hasn't

00:29:05.540 spoken to that unsigned, undated memo that was uploaded to the DOJ website the day after it was

00:29:10.660 leaked to Axios because she can't, because that memo contradicts what she said earlier.

00:29:15.140 And the whole thing, yeah, 150 victims. Are we being led to believe that Jeffrey Epstein

00:29:20.120 was a mass rapist? And I mean, I'm not trying to be, wait, wait, and now there's that now they say

00:29:25.320 in that Axios letter that it's a thousand. So the number's gone up a thousand victims, 10,000

00:29:31.600 pictures of what I understand to be child sexual assault material, which could be, you know, I

00:29:36.400 think is random screen grabs from Jeffrey Epstein's sick, deeply felonious sexual preference in online 0.99

00:29:45.440 porn. But they're pegging the number of his victims at 1,000. And they seem to be saying his victims for 0.96

00:29:53.620 him to make your point even stronger. Go ahead.

00:29:55.980 Well, the question is this, you know, are they suggesting that all of the victims, 250, 1,000,

00:30:02.180 all victims only of Jeffrey Epstein in the sexual sense? And in which case he would have been

00:30:07.060 charged, I'll defer to Dave on this, would he have been charged with rape versus sex trafficking?

00:30:12.620 I mean, the whole thing is everybody knows other people were involved, at the very least Prince

00:30:16.100 Andrew and others accused. You get charged with sex trafficking ring. If I would say all in quotes

00:30:22.100 that he did was serial rape, I presume he would have been charged with that. So you have him

00:30:26.140 convicted, him and Ghislaine Maxwell, for sex trafficking. And now you're referring to 250

00:30:31.020 to 1,000 victims. And we're also being told to believe nobody else was involved. There were no

00:30:35.860 conspirators, unindicted co-conspirators, no clients procuring sexual activity from his trafficking

00:30:42.120 ring. And all that it was, was CSAM. In which case I would still have another question. Did he

00:30:47.080 generate that CSAM or did he procure that CSAM? And to the extent that he did-

00:30:50.400 Child sexual abuse material. Did he, did he make it himself? Did he get it from the internet? And

00:30:55.520 who involved in that child sexual abuse material proliferation is being charged? Nobody, nothing,

00:31:00.800 go home? Megan, I do think that we're conflating the human trafficking with the child porn, because

00:31:07.480 I think when you're talking about 250,000 victims, you're talking about images that he had on those

00:31:13.820 thumb drives of young people, naked young people, disgusting child porn. And I think that's the 0.53

00:31:18.900 victim. So that's the thing. There's, there's a lot of talk about that. There's all one big sex

00:31:23.560 trafficking ring when a lot of his sins were not just in the sex trafficking, but also in just a

00:31:28.780 possession of this awful pornographic material. I'm not sure you're right about that. My,

00:31:34.780 I'm not sure. And we haven't been able to ask any questions. So none of us is totally sure.

00:31:39.280 But the way that a document leaked to Axios read to me was 1000 Jeffrey Epstein victims and 10,000

00:31:47.640 screenshots of child sexual abuse material that they found on his computers. Go ahead, Viva.

00:31:54.760 I was going to say a thousand of Epstein's victims doesn't necessarily preclude the implication of

00:32:00.660 other people. It could have been his victims for trafficking to other people. And so-

00:32:04.700 Agree, we don't know.

00:32:05.240 Like you say, Megan, no press conference to talk about that memo. You have a Caroline 1.00

00:32:09.580 Levitt doing her best under the circumstances to address the inexplicable. No answers as to why

00:32:14.960 it's unsigned, undated, why it was leaked to Axios, why it was then uploaded to the DOJ website the day

00:32:20.600 after, seemingly on like an undisclosed link. And nobody's answering to this. So to me, if I were

00:32:30.040 conspiratorial, I would say this is the best way to undermine Trump's administration, Trump's FBI,

00:32:35.500 to basically in that memo, make anybody who floated the Epstein quote, conspiracy theories,

00:32:40.280 and I think they're reality conspiracy, reality theories, to paint them as conspiracy theorists.

00:32:44.900 And lo and behold, it's the director and deputy director of the FBI. This is a great way to

00:32:48.900 discredit Trump's FBI, to make it look like conspiracy theorists. If someone wanted to sabotage

00:32:53.860 the campaign, the administration, and sow discord, what would they have done differently? So it's not

00:32:59.860 just that Pan Bonny needs to answer on the Epstein file. The rollout needs to have answers, and sooner

00:33:04.400 than later, because it's not going away. Okay, here, let me read you from the memo. This is from the

00:33:10.440 DOJ slash FBI memo that was leaked to Axios on Sunday night. Consistent with prior disclosures,

00:33:16.360 this review confirmed that Epstein harmed over 1,000 victims. Epstein harmed over 1,000 victims.

00:33:24.000 That does not answer the question about whether he was the, you know, the participant in the sex act

00:33:30.460 or was just farming these girls, sex trafficking these girls to others. But that appears to be more

00:33:36.120 than just he looked at pictures online of them when they were children. Um, each suffered unique trauma,

00:33:43.560 sensitive information relating to these victims is intertwined throughout the materials. This

00:33:47.740 includes specific details such as victim names and likenesses, physical descriptions, places of birth,

00:33:52.740 associates, and employment history. So yeah, to me, that sounds very much like these are actual

00:33:57.340 young women who were in Jeffrey Epstein's orbit in some way, shape, or form, either his personal

00:34:03.500 partners in some way, or farmed out to others. The files relating to Epstein include a large volume of

00:34:10.740 images of Epstein images, images and videos of victims who are either minors or appear to be

00:34:17.280 minors. And over 10,000 downloaded videos and images of illegal child sex abuse material and other

00:34:26.340 pornography. The through this review, we found no basis to revisit the disclosure of those materials

00:34:33.760 and will not permit the release of child pornography, which literally nobody wants released. I mean,

00:34:38.100 they keep Pam Bondi keeps asking, acting indignant. Like I will not release the pictures of young

00:34:44.260 children being sexually molested. Hello. There's not a single normal American who's speaking out on 0.93

00:34:50.700 this, who wants that has asked for that or would ever expect that it is such a straw man meant to

00:34:55.700 diminish the criticisms, the legitimate criticism of her. It's just, it's very irritating. And to me,

00:35:01.440 it's a tell she's on unsteady ground because now she's trying to defeat arguments. No one is

00:35:06.800 making to try to put herself in a place of like, I'm the protector of these children. It's like,

00:35:11.600 literally nobody wants to see that. Stop saying that. But what this seems to say, Viva is 10,000

00:35:17.980 images of illegal child sex abuse material and other pornography. In addition to what they say,

00:35:27.300 he harmed over 1000 victims, each suffering unique trauma. Yeah. I mean, and then they'll say, well,

00:35:33.340 maybe the harm that they're referencing is in respect of having possessed or taken the pictures

00:35:37.920 and whatever. As you say it out loud, I can, I can make up a theory or a plausible situation in my

00:35:45.140 mind where they can't disclose too much because they're going after the people that might've been

00:35:49.060 producing the CSAM for Epstein's consumption and pleasure. In which case you don't comment on the

00:35:55.100 ongoing investigation. In which case you say, cannot comment on this. The idea of people out there

00:36:00.200 thinking they need to mislead the public in order to better carry on an ongoing investigation,

00:36:04.660 I think is, is a conspiracy theory that I wouldn't accept or adhere to because they didn't have to

00:36:10.620 say anything. And then, you know, unless this is just one big thing to misguide everybody so they

00:36:15.240 can conduct a better investigation, who the hell knows? But the bottom line, we still don't know why

00:36:19.780 that document is undated, why it's unsigned, who prepared it, who uploaded it, who leaked it.

00:36:25.000 Why didn't they put their names behind it? Why didn't they put their names behind it?

00:36:28.120 What if it is a, uh, if it's sabotage, which is possible as well, sort of like they argued the

00:36:32.720 intel was on the Iranian strike, the, the leak of classified info. If it's sabotage, tell it,

00:36:38.740 repudiate the memo. Say, sorry, that wasn't, that was a draft. We don't know who, who prepared that

00:36:43.060 or why it was released. We're looking into it. It's been a week and they haven't spoken to that.

00:36:47.460 I mean, it's, it, I don't,

00:36:48.960 clearly they stand behind the memo. They stand behind and look, it is very possible, Dave, that

00:36:54.600 Epstein was a pervert. Epstein took advantage of young girls over and over and over. And I'm

00:37:01.380 putting it mildly took advantage of, but you know, I mean, there were acts of rape and sexual assault

00:37:06.040 alleged there, no question. I mean, I have it on very good authority that, that his thing was to

00:37:11.540 take in the barely legal type to ask for massages day after day after day. And then the massages would 1.00

00:37:16.380 turn sexual where he wanted to be finished off with, you know, I don't know how to say this 0.97

00:37:22.880 nicely, a hand job. I'm not sure if there's a nicer way of saying that, but that was apparently 0.97

00:37:27.240 his favorite thing to have happen. And they, Ghislaine Maxwell would go and find young girls for him,

00:37:34.300 understanding this was his thing. They would say that it was the barely legal type, but that they

00:37:40.600 were legal. This was what Jeffrey Epstein's defenders would say. Obviously the government said

00:37:45.740 that's a lie. And now we know from Pam Bondi, the guy was legitimately turned on by images of little

00:37:52.320 children getting sexually assaulted. So yeah, no benefit of the doubt to Jeffrey Epstein, but we

00:37:59.360 have never seen proof that he sex trafficked young or illegal aged girls to third parties that that

00:38:08.160 remains true, Dave. I mean, either because it's there and it's being covered up or it doesn't exist in

00:38:14.020 any way that any member of any DOJ has felt comfortable releasing to the public. Meaning as

00:38:19.660 Alan was implying, it's too thin to be supported. If someone considers it unfair to the men who might

00:38:25.960 be accused, um, they might get sued or there's a strong accusation, but both DOJs or three DOJs now

00:38:35.400 Bill Barr, Merrick Garland, and now Pam Bondi all looked at it and said, these accusers are not

00:38:40.720 credible and we cannot in our position release this stuff. Yeah. The one person who said that she

00:38:46.380 was being trafficked as an underage person with Virginia Jufri and she provided the picture with

00:38:51.360 Prince Andrew and he settled, but yeah, she had credibility issues, but there are lots of, uh,

00:38:58.840 credible, lots of credible evidence that he didn't just want barely legal people. He wanted underage

00:39:04.060 girls to give him those massages at his home. And in fact, according to many reports, he did not want

00:39:11.380 the 18 year olds, 19 year olds went, went offered. He wanted the 14 year olds. He wanted the younger,

00:39:16.320 the underage children to be doing it. And then there were individuals who have testified that they knew

00:39:21.980 of people who had been trafficked, but as far as the actual victim coming forward was Virginia

00:39:26.800 Jufri. And we spoke about her already. Uh, yeah, you're right to say that there are other

00:39:33.160 administrations that have looked at this stuff when it comes to killing himself in prison. Remember,

00:39:37.200 this wasn't just Pam Bondi saying this, this is the New York city medical examiner who said this,

00:39:41.660 this was Bill Barr who said this, this is the DOJ's inspector general who said this. So this is not

00:39:47.640 just on this administration. It's consistent with the other administrations. I think the difference is

00:39:51.760 that this members of this administration had been pushing some theories out there that have raised

00:39:57.560 expectations amongst their base and now to be let down. Okay. But just to say, just like, just to

00:40:04.460 reiterate the medical examiner, she, she wasn't totally solid from the beginning. She, she, she said

00:40:11.160 undetermined, I think initially. Um, and Dr. Bodden was brought in and he's a world renowned forensic

00:40:18.740 pathologist and he did an autopsy on Jeffrey Epstein and said the hyoid boy bone that's in the front of

00:40:26.100 your neck was broken. It was broken in three places and that he had never seen that in a hanging death

00:40:33.480 that it's much more consistent with strangulation. And the medical examiner disagreed with him.

00:40:38.580 There was a disagreement. Epstein was hired by, by Jeffrey Epstein's brother, but you know,

00:40:45.820 I've never known Dr. Bodden to be a dishonest man. And he had his reasons for stating this looks

00:40:51.640 much more consistent with homicide than it does with suicide to me. Dr. Bodden is, uh, well-respected.

00:40:58.760 I've met him. He's a really nice guy and I love his wife, Linda, but he's had controversies over the

00:41:03.120 years. You know, he's, he's had a bunch of things. Uh, he was fired by Mayor Koch in 1979, uh, for

00:41:09.280 allegations of, you know, lost evidence and, and, and so forth. There was his, uh, 1982, he had this thing

00:41:14.760 with his high tech murder. He made some comments that were very controversial. I mean, he was

00:41:18.320 dismissed from his position there. So he's had hiccups along the way. He's far from perfect.

00:41:24.180 And he was contradicted by the medical examiner on the scene. So, you know, he's not infallible.

00:41:31.000 No, he's not infallible, but I was not saying what you just said about him. I trust Dr. Bodden. I

00:41:34.840 interviewed him countless times. I think he's a, he's an honest broker. Um, now it is also true that

00:41:40.940 sometimes when a forensic pathologist gets hired by a private party to go conduct a private autopsy,

00:41:46.260 there could be direction from said private party. Like, Hey, I'm convinced it was a murder. You know,

00:41:52.220 please go in and tell me whether there's any evidence of a murder. But I do believe that Dr.

00:41:57.620 Bodden in those circumstances, if he went in and did an autopsy and found no evidence that it was a

00:42:01.680 murder would say to Mark Epstein, there's nothing. I do believe he would say that. And not only did he not

00:42:09.160 say that, he had actual, you know, physical signs that he pointed to, to say, this is why

00:42:14.720 I don't think it was a suicide. I do think it was a murder. And I'll say in the medical examiner's

00:42:20.100 defense, she said, let me tell you why I think it was, by the way, Dr. Bodden also said,

00:42:25.860 if you were hanging for two hours, as is the official story with Jeffrey Epstein, he hanged himself two

00:42:32.720 hours before they found him. You would have seen lividity in the legs. You would have seen blood pooling,

00:42:37.320 um, in the back of like the calves and the feet. And that wasn't there, which he said,

00:42:42.280 suggested to him, this body had been supinated, you know, supine on the floor and not hanging for

00:42:48.180 two hours. And the medical examiner who was opposed to Dr. Bodden, she said in her, on her side,

00:42:53.080 if you were strangled by somebody, the broken blood vessel vessels would look different in your eyes and

00:43:01.820 in your face than they did. And Jeffrey Epstein, she thought his broken blood vessels were much more

00:43:06.720 consistent with the hanging. This is a lot of information for people to hold onto, but I'm

00:43:11.240 just, I just want you to know what we know. Again, no clear answers. Viva, you clearly want to weigh in.

00:43:16.440 It's, it's irrelevant actually, whether or not he successfully killed himself, whether or not he

00:43:21.400 was murdered. I bypassed the question entirely. Fine. Some people suggest he might've hung himself,

00:43:26.220 ended up upside down, hang, sorry, which is how he might've broken that other bone.

00:43:31.240 The bottom line, I'll operate on the basis that he took his own life in the prison cell.

00:43:36.420 Then that begs the question that, okay, he killed himself. Nothing to see here. Sorry. There's

00:43:40.700 plenty to see here. How was one of the most wanted defendants in the world at the time

00:43:45.220 unsupervised for 10 hours after having been taken off suicide watch for reasons that we don't know

00:43:51.380 the psychiatrist. I don't know that we've ever heard from him or her as to why the order was given

00:43:56.140 to take him off suicide watch. Cause he had just attempted to take his own life. He was

00:44:00.160 unsupervised. He denied that he had done it. He was saying, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I don't,

00:44:04.360 I don't want to kill myself. I I'm too, I'm too weak. I'm too scared. I would, I mean,

00:44:08.160 it's possible he convinced somebody that he actually wasn't suicidal, but that's exactly

00:44:11.520 right. That's exactly what happened. So that's fine. But then a man who allegedly attempted suicide

00:44:17.360 two weeks earlier, taken off suicide watch, left unattended without a cellmate for 10 plus hours

00:44:21.800 with nobody checking on him. And I appreciate the human error. And excessive bed linens. That was

00:44:26.320 another thing that was in the report excessive. Yeah. That don't tear like paper as they're

00:44:30.860 supposed to. So it's very nice to let someone take their own lives because dead men tell no tales,

00:44:35.840 but that's a conspiracy. How the heck did all of those, the confluence of human errors, if we believe

00:44:41.420 it, occur to facilitate him killing himself is itself a conspiracy. So I bypass all the questions as

00:44:47.700 the debate between experts. It's funny. Experts always have a way of saying what their clients

00:44:50.940 want them to say. And I'm not saying that in a cynical way. Let's just assume he was left

00:44:55.940 unattended for 10 hours. Security guard wasn't there. Cameras weren't working. Extra bed linens,

00:45:00.480 no cellmate. I'm sorry. Someone let him kill himself. That's a conspiracy. I have questions.

00:45:04.680 Yeah. Oh, that's the question. Let me just play. I'll let you, I'll get you to respond to it,

00:45:08.300 but I just want to play this because Michael Wolff, a reporter was on a podcast with the Daily Beast. I

00:45:14.980 think it was Wednesday and spoke to, he did a lot of reporting on Epstein, a lot of reporting on him and

00:45:20.900 around him and, um, offered the following. Listen to top three.

00:45:25.900 When did you last talk to him? So you were due to meet him for lunch the day after or breakfast the

00:45:31.220 day after he was, uh, arrested. When did you last speak to him?

00:45:36.460 I believe that I was, I got the last message from him before he died.

00:45:41.860 And what was that message? Uh, and this came, this came through one of his, one of his lawyers and

00:45:49.540 on, on, on a Friday evening, he died on Saturday morning. August the 10th. Yes. Um, and he, he,

00:45:58.420 you know, and he died theoretically from, by hanging himself. And his message to me

00:46:05.300 hours before this happened was, um, and it was just in, in response to me asking, you know,

00:46:13.360 how, how he was. And he said, still hanging around. Oh boy. Oh boy. Go ahead, Dave.

00:46:21.640 Well, yeah. Cause he was going to kill himself again. He convinced the authorities to take him

00:46:27.080 off suicide watch. He, he did without question, try to commit suicide two weeks earlier and he got

00:46:34.340 himself off suicide watch. And if you want to know why were the guards sleeping and why weren't the

00:46:39.100 cameras perfect, it's because it's government. I worked in government for 25 years.

00:46:42.120 They're New York city civil workers.

00:46:43.980 Yes. I mean, yeah, that, that sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one. And

00:46:47.600 as someone who worked in government for 25 years, cameras don't always work. Technology kind of sucks. 0.99

00:46:53.140 Guards fall asleep. It happens. It's a much easier explanation than to 0.99

00:46:56.980 think that, you know, Hillary Clinton climbed in on a cat wire and, and offed him. So I just,

00:47:01.920 I don't think that happened. Um, the wait, wait, we did. I know you're not interested in it,

00:47:09.320 but I just want to show it. Dr. Bodden did go on Tucker Carlson show, which was on Fox news.

00:47:13.840 Um, after all this went down and here's what he said. I was present at the autopsy and there were,

00:47:21.260 uh, three fractures in the windpipe, uh, that are much more typical of crush injury from

00:47:27.820 homicidal strangulation than from hanging hemorrhages in the eyes. Again, more, uh, typical of, uh,

00:47:35.320 uh, homicide and, uh, the ligature imprint on the neck didn't match the, uh, ligature that was present

00:47:45.020 in the cell. So I thought that, uh, made it more likely, uh, that this was a homicide, but we never

00:47:51.640 got to, to find out how the body was found. Was he found hanging or not? For example, because the

00:47:58.300 two, the two guards were sleeping, the body was just cut down and brought out to a hospital where

00:48:04.160 he was pronounced dead. Well, and the other thing is Viva, um, when they brought him out of the cell,

00:48:10.440 they, they had him like intubated and Jeffrey's brother has always been like, he was dead. Why

00:48:15.520 were they intubating him or pretending to, and that he was photographed in like a hospital gown

00:48:22.420 in the prison infirmary? Why, why did they put him in a hospital gown? He, he was in his prison

00:48:27.680 uniform when he was hanged all these weird anomalies. And he's also been wanting to see the videotape

00:48:33.160 of the trip to the infirmary, which hasn't been released. It's just still, you know,

00:48:39.140 and then if you ask questions about this, you're called like a wacko conspiracy theorist who,

00:48:43.240 you know, believes in the little green men running around next to us.

00:48:46.580 It doesn't make sense. And the, it's government mistakes happen. Government is incompetent.

00:48:52.620 Everyone on earth was saying they're going to kill him when he's in jail. You take care of a witness 0.98

00:48:57.460 like that. You don't have one government error after another. And at some point orchestrated

00:49:03.140 government errors become intense. Layered incompetence is intent. You know, similar to

00:49:08.700 the Butler. It's a good point. It's a good reminder that everybody was saying they're going to kill

00:49:14.020 him while he's in jail. Everybody was saying that when he was in there, I got to run because I only

00:49:18.060 have a minute to take a break, but we're coming back on the opposite side. Don't go anywhere.

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00:50:21.420 Viva, you were on the show in May talking about the P. Diddy trial long before we had a verdict,

00:50:29.440 and this was your prediction.

00:50:31.060 You have this entire blackmail extortion ring. They went and raided Diddy's house. There were

00:50:36.400 cameras there. We know that it involves, you know, the higher-ups in the entertainment industry,

00:50:40.820 if not the world of politics as well. And this entire prosecution is reduced to P. Diddy and what

00:50:46.080 we know of his abuse of Cassie and potentially Jane. And then once you flesh out the fact that for

00:50:50.780 whatever the reason, Maureen Comey, James Comey's daughter, is still involved as one of the

00:50:54.500 this trial. This trial is a show trial because they're going to get him on something. It might

00:50:59.300 just be the, you know, trafficking for prostitution purposes, which seems undeniable. Send him away

00:51:04.080 for 10 years. Maybe he gets out after eight. And then you've successfully covered up the entire

00:51:07.920 extortion ring that P. Diddy was running, much like what they did with Epstein.

00:51:11.260 Oh, that's very interesting. It really is. And they did just get him on those two trafficking for

00:51:19.760 purposes of prostitution or, you know, crossing transportation for purposes of prostitution. 0.99

00:51:25.740 And your reaction to that was what? Well, I mean, the old expression is even a blind squirrel

00:51:31.500 occasionally finds the nut. But that was, I think I might be getting sufficiently cynical in my

00:51:37.840 middle life age to see how things go dark quickly and apply all of that mutatus mutandus to the Epstein 0.66

00:51:45.400 case. You know, they went after Diddy for sex trafficking to himself only. And they failed in

00:51:51.880 the Epstein case because a jury, I guess, saw through it if the only evidence of sex trafficking

00:51:57.980 was him procuring prostitutes for his own personal pleasure in the freak offs. But, you know, in the

00:52:02.640 Epstein case. They failed in the Diddy case. Keep going. Yes. In the Epstein case and Ghislaine Maxwell,

00:52:07.360 they went after them for sex trafficking to nobody. So it failed in the Diddy case, but succeeded in the

00:52:13.040 cover up. You have the same players involved in all of these sinister blackmail extortion operations

00:52:18.100 alleged. How the heck Maureen Comey is still involved in this beyond me. But no, this was if

00:52:24.520 you want to be cynical and you want to predict the conspiracy, this was the way it's going to go.

00:52:29.620 Epstein Diddy is going to now. I don't know. We'll see how many years he gets for the

00:52:33.300 transportation for prostitution man act violations. And we'll see what he serves of that. But yeah,

00:52:39.060 this is a the prosecution was the cover up. My thought from the beginning, it's not going to

00:52:43.960 be a lot of time. They he appeared in court this week and the judge, it was two minutes,

00:52:48.320 basically said you defense counsel and you prosecutors submit a joint memo on a sentencing

00:52:53.640 recommendation. The prosecution has been saying five to six years. The defense has been saying

00:52:57.880 no more than two. He's going to get credit for the 10 months served. Each day in jail is another day

00:53:03.800 crude. That will count in his favor. And if it's more than like three years, I think I'll be shocked.

00:53:09.140 But even six years to me is a slap on the wrist for what this man's been accused of, Dave.

00:53:14.060 He's now lionized by some there. It came out that when he went back to the the holding cell where

00:53:21.220 they've been keeping him in the jail, he received like some sort of huge applause from the prisoners.

00:53:27.640 They're so proud of him because he beat the most serious rap. And his lawyer, Mark Ignifolo,

00:53:33.100 was saying, I think this is just this is your your fate in life to be the guy who wins. Those guys

00:53:42.160 need to see that someone can win. The official sentence is on will be imposed on October 3rd.

00:53:49.220 Thoughts on it? It's very hard to beat the feds. They've got something like a 98 percent conviction

00:53:54.080 rate. They got lots of built in advantages. But these are different times where people mistrust

00:53:59.520 government. The institutions are being undermined. And now people just think that government's out to

00:54:05.800 get people. And here you had, I thought, very strong evidence that he did engage in human trafficking with

00:54:11.140 at least Cassie. And yet the jury didn't like that he was overcharged with the racketeering claim

00:54:17.940 case. They didn't like that the victim that was supposed to appear did not appear. The prosecutors

00:54:25.260 overpromised in their opening statement. They didn't like that KK, who was Diddy's assistant,

00:54:32.140 who knows where all the bodies are buried, did not testify, was not charged. Where is she? And so I

00:54:37.920 think the jury decided that, you know what, government, we're going to send you a message and

00:54:42.380 we're going to only convict on the lowest hanging fruit. And I'm with you, Megan. I think that

00:54:46.620 he deserved more. But in the end, I do think he's going to get a slap on the wrist. The Judge

00:54:52.140 Supermanian just came out with a statement to both parties saying that I want you to pretty much give

00:54:58.040 me a memo about what others in the same situation who are convicted of prostitution and only prostitution

00:55:04.020 will get. Well, if that's the standard, then he's getting very little, if anything.

00:55:10.080 Yeah. And also he's treating him as though he has no criminal record because his prior crimes didn't

00:55:15.880 require jail time. Like in order to be counted, they have to have resulted in a certain high level

00:55:20.060 of punishment, which never happened to Diddy, which is so perfect. He's gotten away with all of his

00:55:25.420 crimes thus far without getting any serious punishment. And therefore he'll get away with

00:55:30.300 these without getting any serious punishment. And there's no question to me that they played the

00:55:34.560 race card in this case, that he has enormous privilege. He has the best lawyers. And he went in there and

00:55:41.280 they, they did a little dance in that courtroom on these jurors who I think got this totally wrong.

00:55:48.000 I just think they completely dropped the ball. And once again, he skates Viva.

00:55:52.560 Well, I'm not sure that I think the jury got it wrong based on the evidence that was adjuiced or

00:55:57.680 provided to them based on the charges. They're charging him with human sex or human trafficking,

00:56:03.280 sex trafficking. And yet there are, again, no clients other than his own pleasure. So he's,

00:56:08.660 he's trafficking women for his own personal pleasure for these freak offs. It's kind of like

00:56:14.340 a limited hangout, but in terms of a prosecution, like a limited prosecution, we want to charge him

00:56:18.960 with sex trafficking, but we don't want to implicate other potential clients who might be politically

00:56:23.620 connected. I don't know, higher ups in the world. And so we're just going to say he was trafficking them

00:56:27.220 to himself. If that was the standard and only Cassie and only Jane Doe, if that was the standard,

00:56:32.500 that was the evidence submitted. I don't blame the jury for saying no to the sex trafficking,

00:56:36.100 the Mann Act violations, like everyone said from the beginning, dead to rights. The only question

00:56:40.520 is what's that going to get him by way of a sentence? So I don't think the jury actually

00:56:44.400 got it entirely wrong in this case, based on the evidence that was presented to them,

00:56:48.300 based on the charges that were brought against Diddy. I just think this was a limited prosecution.

00:56:53.300 Go after him for sex trafficking, but don't implicate anybody else so that if they get a conviction,

00:56:57.840 they move on. And if they get an acquittal, they move on. And lo and behold,

00:57:00.620 what about the videos that were seized from his mansion? What about the whole camera setup that

00:57:05.420 was sort of a la Jeffrey Epstein in his mansions? Nothing there, all for his personal pleasure.

00:57:10.000 I don't believe it, period. I don't believe it based on evidence prior to the trial. And the

00:57:13.520 trial didn't bring up all the evidence that we knew existed beforehand.

00:57:17.100 Hmm. I mean, I don't know. Why would Maureen Comey want to protect the people at a Diddy party

00:57:23.740 to whom they may have been or he may have been sex trafficking women? I mean, truly,

00:57:29.440 what is the theory there, Viva? If I'm being very cynical, the theory is that there were

00:57:34.520 politically prominent New York figures, media types, media moguls that will get the protection.

00:57:39.160 And so how do you prosecute Diddy without implicating others? How do you prosecute him

00:57:43.260 for sex trafficking without having people to whom he was trafficking for sex? I mean, I could think

00:57:48.660 I mean, like the names that we heard just on the speculation underscoring for the audience at home,

00:57:53.360 these were speculative names. It was like Ashton Kutcher, you know, it was like famous actors. It

00:57:59.180 wasn't, this wasn't a case of where it's like Bill Clinton was in there again, right? Like we heard in

00:58:05.140 the Epstein names. I mean, for all I know he might've been, but my point is simply, we weren't hearing

00:58:10.920 about heavy Democrat donors attending the white parties that Diddy had in the Hamptons. That one makes

00:58:17.180 less sense to me than the Epstein connections. Connected wealthy moguls. We're talking about

00:58:22.160 the Diddy parties became the iconic sort of term as Epstein's Island. And people frequented these

00:58:28.440 Diddy parties. I say this is purely speculative, but when you look at what evidence there was when

00:58:34.020 they were seizing or raiding the home, talking about, you know, intricate camera setups, cameras

00:58:39.260 in each rooms, potential blackmail, and then they go after him for sex trafficking. Because bear in mind,

00:58:44.000 they didn't, if they didn't go after him for that, if it was just straight up, I don't know,

00:58:47.360 sexual assault, sexual abuse, they went after him for Rico sex trafficking. So based on their

00:58:52.300 charges, you presume they had good reason to do it. But if the only evidence they adduced to trial

00:58:56.760 was Cassie and Jane- Well, but you can sex traffic someone to yourself. I mean, Dave, what, what they

00:59:01.080 accused Diddy of doing with Cassie and Jane was illegal. The jury didn't buy it, but you can sex traffic

00:59:07.120 someone to yourself. You don't have to be in the business of just pimping out women to third parties.

00:59:11.080 Absolutely. And all it takes is one time that the woman refuses to consent. All it takes is one time 0.99

00:59:18.280 that there's forced fraud or coercion. And you had that video from the Intercontinental Hotel

00:59:21.800 that was so damning. There was the force right there in front of you. And the defense was very

00:59:27.280 successful in framing that as garden variety domestic violence, saying that this should be treated

00:59:33.380 as domestic violence in state court. This is not a federal crime of human trafficking,

00:59:37.820 not a federal crime of racketeering. And I think the jury bought it, at least in part. Also didn't

00:59:43.480 help that Cassie had text messages showing that she consented at least at the beginning to some of

00:59:48.540 these freak offs. And the jury, I think, was persuaded that once you consent at the beginning,

00:59:53.920 there are no take backs. And that's unfortunate because it's clear to me that she refused to go

00:59:59.680 along with it at some point. And she was the victim of force, fraud or coercion. And he should have

01:00:04.780 been found guilty of at least that count of human trafficking, which would have required a 10-year

01:00:09.660 mandatory minimum in prison. So, yeah, I do think he got away with it on this one. But, you know,

01:00:15.240 as a jury system, as a prosecutor for the last 12 years, I could tell you that the one thing that is

01:00:20.280 predictable about juries is that they're notoriously unpredictable.

01:00:24.820 And annoying. Okay, that's Diddy. Let's go to Kohlberger, where a jury never got to weigh in

01:00:30.460 on Brian Kohlberger's guilt or innocence. But anybody with eyes and ears could see this was

01:00:36.040 an open and shut case against him. And nonetheless, the prosecutor decided to offer life without,

01:00:41.820 well, not even life without the possibility of parole. Matt Murphy was pointing this out. He did

01:00:45.480 not get life without. The deal was that he'd get four consecutive life sentences. But he's pointing

01:00:51.300 out that that actually means the guy could potentially get parole at some point down the line.

01:00:56.860 Yeah. In any event, Kohlberger is now officially, I mean, he's pleaded guilty. And now we're learning

01:01:06.340 a little bit more from people who knew him. And this is an interesting thing. Okay. Ashley Banfield

01:01:13.480 spoke with a former Kohlberger classmate who went to, I think, to get the master's with him at that

01:01:21.840 Pennsylvania College. And here's what's really interesting about the discussion, guys.

01:01:26.740 Kohlberger, we believe, was posting right after the murders under a name called Papa Roger.

01:01:35.060 Online, he wasn't posting as Brian Kohlberger, but Papa Roger. And he posted, among other things,

01:01:41.060 the following. This is on dated November 30th. Keep in mind that the murders, I think it was November 13th.

01:01:47.520 And he posted the following under University of Idaho murders case discussion in a forum of the

01:01:53.820 evidence released. The murder weapon has been consistent as a large fixed blade knife. This

01:01:59.460 leads me to believe they found the sheath. This evidence was released prior to audio tapes. The police

01:02:06.880 did not confirm for another 30 days after this post that they had found a knife sheath.

01:02:11.960 So it's very interesting that Papa Rogers somehow knew that the knife sheath had likely been found.

01:02:21.200 And the reason now, even more, that we're thinking Papa Rogers is Brian Kohlberger is one of his

01:02:29.080 classmates, and I'll get to this guy who spoke to Ashley Banfield, but one of his classmates has come

01:02:34.620 out and said when they were at DeSales University, that was the one in Pennsylvania, one of the most

01:02:39.980 depraved killers they studied was a guy named Elliot Roger. And in 2014, this guy, Elliot Roger, had

01:02:48.280 killed six, wounded another 13 in a violent rampage near the University of California, Santa Barbara,

01:02:53.940 before turning the gun on himself. Okay, take down that picture. That's disturbing.

01:02:58.580 Two of Kohlberger's former classmates told the Daily Mail they recalled learning about Roger in class,

01:03:06.040 including his warped 137-page manifesto, laying out his incel motive, incel being involuntarily celibate,

01:03:12.920 a guy who's never had an action with a woman, very angry about it. We believe that's the case for 0.99

01:03:17.480 Brian Kohlberger. A hatred of women and writing that a former friend named Maddie, okay, still on the

01:03:25.000 Elliot Roger case, a former friend named Maddie had eventually come to represent everything I hate 0.98

01:03:30.440 and despise. They write now chilling parallels have been drawn between Kohlberger and that guy,

01:03:37.600 Elliot Roger, which coupled with a curious, curiously named social media account called

01:03:41.980 Papa Roger have fueled questions as to whether he was inspired by his classes about the incel killer to

01:03:48.760 carry out his own mass murder. Um, there's Roger that, you know, the Elliot Roger, he stabbed to death

01:03:57.400 his first three victims inside a home. Then he shot two women dead outside of the sorority house,

01:04:04.560 Alpha Phi, targeting the house because he said the sorority sisters were the hottest in college.

01:04:09.780 Kohlberger's victims were all part of a Greek life and Gonsalves, Kaylee Gonsalves was in Alpha Phi.

01:04:16.520 Um, Rogers, Elliot Rogers railed against a woman named Maddie in his manifesto. Kohlberger is

01:04:24.900 believed to have chosen Maddie Mogan as his main target. And we've all wondered from the beginning,

01:04:31.300 why? Because there was no connection between the two of them. It is possible he saw her and maybe

01:04:36.640 had a brief exchange at a vegan restaurant where she worked. That's never been officially confirmed,

01:04:41.780 but the police have said, at least in the Dateline special and elsewhere, they believe Maddie Mogan

01:04:47.200 was his primary target and that Kaylee Gonsalves was killed because she was in the bed next to her. 0.72

01:04:52.520 Uh, she had actually moved out and was just back visiting that night, Kaylee, that Maddie was the 0.99

01:04:56.380 target. Um, and then there's this post. Okay. Now here's Ashley Banfield speaking with a former

01:05:02.340 Kohlberger classmate, Josh Ferraro. Listen to this.

01:05:05.420 Do you think Josh that, um, Brian Kohlberger is Papa Roger who showed up in those crime discussion

01:05:15.300 groups after the murders until someone else stands up and says that it was them? Absolutely. I don't

01:05:21.780 see any reason to say that it wasn't him. Um, the pseudonym Papa Rogers in connection with Elliot

01:05:27.360 Rogers makes a lot of sense, especially if he did idolize him as, you know, the king of the

01:05:32.000 insult community and wanted to do it, you know, even better, pay homage to his name and, uh, what

01:05:38.760 he had done in the past. Um, and I haven't seen anything online or, or anywhere that says that he

01:05:45.380 isn't or definitively that he is. So it's all speculative of course right now, but it would

01:05:51.300 not surprise me in the slightest if to relive that high, he entered that community just to feel

01:05:57.920 everything that he felt that night again. For the viewing audience on YouTube, news nation must

01:06:03.660 have lost their feed with their guests. So there's a, just a news nation, uh, graphic up for half of

01:06:08.440 that soundbite Dave, former front, uh, prosecutor you've, you've put a lot of bad guys like this in

01:06:13.480 jail. What do you make of that? Those are, those parallels are pretty disturbing. Yeah, well, there's

01:06:18.200 your motive. I mean, unless someone else comes forward and said that's their page, then I think it is a

01:06:23.700 strong assumption that that is Koberger's page. It's so interesting, serial killers, how they just

01:06:30.320 want to relive this. I mean, he went back to the scene of the crime after he committed the murders.

01:06:35.020 I mean, why do you do that when that can get you caught? Because that's what serial killers,

01:06:39.660 that's what murders do. And that's apparently what happened here when he was revisiting it in

01:06:44.380 trying to put out evidence that the public didn't even know at the time. So yes, this goes a long way

01:06:49.580 to explaining what happened. Also, remember this guy was a devotee of serial killers. This guy was a

01:06:54.680 doctoral student in criminology. So who else would do something like this? Because there was no

01:06:59.800 financial motive. Nothing was stolen. And I'm just glad that they caught him before he did it more

01:07:05.420 because when the people he followed that he, he, uh, he liked like BK, the, uh, BTK killer, Ted Bundy,

01:07:12.540 those folks were able to do it for a while before they got caught. He's still living in the seventies.

01:07:17.160 Kohlberger though. Today you have DNA on a knife sheath. You have cell phone records. You have

01:07:22.660 things that you didn't have back then. And it's much easier to catch a killer like him today.

01:07:27.240 That's something he probably didn't learn in school. He's still fighting the last war. Apparently

01:07:31.400 Viva the, um, the parallels like the Maddie, you know, that, that, that was a, that that's who this

01:07:39.160 other killer killer was obsessed with Elliot Rogers. And now Maddie Mogan was the focus of him,

01:07:44.380 the in cell possible connection, the stabbing inside of a house, the alpha fee connection on top

01:07:50.440 of it. And then this was also in the daily mail, Dr. Carol Lieberman, who is, um, they, they describe

01:07:58.460 her as having more than two decades of experience analyzing criminal behavior, uh, raises the

01:08:03.040 following, which I do remember hearing about. There was a girl in Brian Kohlberger's high school or

01:08:08.660 middle school with whom he was reportedly obsessed. Her name is Kim Kennelly, K E N E L Y 1.00

01:08:16.900 popular blonde cheerleader, uh, who was the target of unwanted attention for months from Brian 0.99

01:08:24.140 Kohlberger. Her mother has spoken publicly about how he would leave her love letters in her locker

01:08:29.620 and make repeated awkward declarations of interest. He would always say, Oh Kim, I think you're very

01:08:34.620 pretty, just like weird comments, said the mom. And she would say, Oh God, leave me alone. She did

01:08:40.200 not give him the time of day. He was creepy. He was weird. He was, I think at the time, morbidly obese

01:08:46.280 and then would become a heroin addict. So really not like probably the most popular kid in school.

01:08:52.880 And, uh, this Dr. Lieberman positing that the rejection delivered in a possibly public humiliating

01:08:57.980 way may have planted the first seeds of rage. And that young woman looks remarkably like Maddie

01:09:05.660 Mogan. I mean, I just, to me, it's so interesting because we've, unfortunately they let this case go

01:09:11.360 to, you know, be pled out without ever forcing him to tell us his motive. But now it seems like

01:09:16.560 we're getting closer to piecing it together. Yeah, I was, um, it's funny the last time we were on the

01:09:22.120 show, we talked about this. Like I was following this case more tangentially, not as in as much detail

01:09:26.680 as say the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard type trials of the Kyle Rittenhouse. So I was always sort of not

01:09:32.180 shocked, but I presume that the evidence was more circumstantial than direct evidence. I appreciate

01:09:38.100 the DNA on the knife sheath and, uh, you know, the, the images of the vehicle. Then I saw that

01:09:43.960 Dateline expose and I'm like, all right, I can understand why they would ask for a mistrial or

01:09:48.060 postpone the trial, because that was enough to convince me. They tell a compelling story.

01:09:52.220 They tie the circumstantial evidence together very meticulously. You're dealing with

01:09:56.560 the guy who gives you the heebie-jeebies through the photographs of him on the internet, whether

01:10:01.940 or not that's because of what you already built into those photographs based on news reporting

01:10:05.040 might show the prejudicial nature of pretrial publications. But yeah, I mean, I was just

01:10:10.940 shocked that there was a lot of circumstantial evidence, only two elements of direct evidence,

01:10:15.000 that being the, the slight bit of a DNA on the knife sheath and a knife sheath that was left at the

01:10:19.640 scene. I presume they have ISP addresses on those accounts and can tie them to Kohlberger or at least

01:10:25.340 his vicinity, that the data creation of those accounts, uh, can be tied to his activity as

01:10:30.680 well. It's a very compelling story. And in the absence of video evidence or direct witness evidence,

01:10:36.340 it convinced me. And I don't know if that's because I'm easily manipulated by you are not

01:10:41.280 easily manipulated. No, Dave Ehrenberg. Do you, did you ever see this when you were prosecuting cases of

01:10:46.820 like someone who so far had gotten away with it, who just couldn't stop himself from posting about

01:10:54.240 it or leaving a clue or somehow like teasing law enforcement? You know, for me, I'm thinking about,

01:11:00.720 uh, the Unabomber who was getting away with it. Absolutely. But kept posting publicly, 1.00

01:11:07.120 which is eventually how he got caught. His, his brother recognized the musings as belonging to his

01:11:13.360 brother, Ted Kaczynski. But like, this is so reckless for him to go on and start posting.

01:11:19.200 It's the knife sheath before it's been made public. There's no question in my mind that that's him,

01:11:23.700 Papa Roger. And I think it's a very good theory that he named himself that after one of his favorite

01:11:28.080 serial killers. Yeah. You see that with serial killers. They're the ones trying to play cat and

01:11:34.040 mouse with the police. Uh, you don't see it as much with other criminals, but yeah, remember serial

01:11:41.120 killers have a different mindset. They're not there for pecuniary gain. They're not there for any

01:11:46.260 reason other than sport or sexual gratification. And it's the game for them. And here you have

01:11:53.280 Koberger who I think perhaps would have continued to do that, but he just got caught before he thought

01:11:58.120 he'd get caught. Because as I said, he's still living in the seventies where these guys can go on

01:12:02.200 for a long time. But, uh, thankfully modern technology makes it much harder for these guys.

01:12:06.840 And that database is something that we use. We caught a serial killer with a genealogical database

01:12:13.460 and law enforcement doesn't like to talk about it much because they don't want the public to

01:12:18.180 uncheck that box. When you enter into 23andMe where it says, are you okay with being in a database? Most

01:12:24.360 people just check the box or don't uncheck a box. And that's something that really can help law

01:12:30.140 enforcement catch killers because the way they caught him was because they found a DNA match with a

01:12:35.360 relative. It could have been a distant relative. We don't know. And we, and we don't want the public

01:12:41.320 to know because if the defense found out, they would have put the blame on that relative. They

01:12:46.560 would have said that person is the killer. They would harass that person. So that was a big issue

01:12:51.060 going to trial, whether the law enforcement was going to have to disclose who this relative was. So

01:12:55.960 kudos to modern technology. I'm glad we got this guy. I just believed he deserved the death penalty in

01:13:01.300 the end. Absolutely. Right. And it was, I just think cowardly of this prosecutor not to see that 0.99

01:13:06.760 through. Um, there was no question he was going to be found guilty. I mean, there's, I guess there's

01:13:10.560 always been out, out, out, outside chance, but in this case, it was just overwhelming. I will say

01:13:15.740 this, Dr. Catherine Ramsland, who was his professor at DeSales, uh, as he was getting his master's before

01:13:21.840 he went cross country to Washington state to get his PhD, which is where he, these crimes were committed

01:13:26.120 in neighboring Idaho, 10 miles away. Um, she gave an interview to Brian Enten of news nation. We played

01:13:31.920 this for our audience, but now we didn't know exactly what she was referring to, but now it's

01:13:36.160 starting to come into focus. And I wonder whether she was thinking about this Rogers case when she

01:13:40.280 said the following here, can you say Dr. Ramsland, what it was looking back now, um, that sort of raises

01:13:48.660 your eyebrows specifically in terms of things in the class? Um, I think just the idea of wanting to

01:13:56.980 study, um, offenders and what their thought process was, how they felt about their crimes,

01:14:06.440 um, wanting to study that and then finding out that this is a person who, who then is now

01:14:14.820 saying he's guilty of doing these things. I have to look at the framework of what I taught and wonder,

01:14:21.780 did I inspire him in some way? Did I, you know, but I can't, I can't second guess that because I

01:14:30.600 may have inspired somebody else to become an FBI agent. And that's unfortunately in this field,

01:14:38.400 you know, that's what we live with. You really have to wonder whether Catherine Ramsland was thinking

01:14:43.560 about the Elliot Roger case and a man who broke in, who stabbed, who targeted a girl named Maddie,

01:14:49.540 who was an incel, who focused on alpha fees, sorority member. I mean, it's just, you really

01:14:54.420 have to wonder, okay, let's move on. Um, another case has been very much in the news, but hasn't

01:14:59.140 gotten as much attention lately, though. There's been activity in it is Carmelo Anthony, this 17 year

01:15:05.460 old young man out of Texas who killed another 17 year old man, um, out of Texas. Uh, this happened

01:15:14.380 after they had a confrontation at a track meet and, um, in just like a truly tragic exchange for some

01:15:22.320 reason, this Carmelo Anthony decided to pull out a knife and stab 17 year old Austin Metcalfe in the

01:15:29.820 heart killing him almost instantly. It's just, the whole thing is so confusing. It, to me, it just

01:15:37.020 shows like true depraved indifference to human life, true depraved indifference. Um, his defense

01:15:45.380 is going to be self-defense. Carmelo Anthony, for the record, Carmelo was black. Austin was white. 0.56

01:15:51.400 Race is being made an issue on the Carmelo side. Um, he went under this tent that

01:15:59.820 like, I guess each team sets up their own tent and Carmelo Anthony wasn't part of this team's tent.

01:16:06.700 And so Austin Metcalfe went over to him. These are the early reports and said, leave. And he said,

01:16:11.640 no. And, and said, um, I guess I should quote exactly, but said, uh, if you, if you try to

01:16:17.980 put hands on me, you're going to be sorry. Hold on. Let me get it. Exactly. From the police report

01:16:23.080 reveals that Anthony told an officer right after I was protecting myself. Um, the, he heard the cop say,

01:16:29.820 he was the alleged killer and Carmelo Anthony said, I'm not alleged. I did it. Uh, and he inquired to

01:16:35.820 an officer. If what he did was self-defense, the officer claimed he replied by telling him,

01:16:40.740 I did not know what happened. Another officer States that a witness told him Carmelo Anthony

01:16:46.120 told Austin Metcalfe touch me and see what happens. And also that Carmelo Anthony told Austin Metcalfe

01:16:52.860 to punch him and see what happens before Austin did touch him. I didn't, I've not seen the word

01:16:58.860 punched used anywhere, but Austin did lay hands on him in some way and asked him to move. And Anthony

01:17:05.780 then stabbed Metcalfe in the heart thereafter. Uh, the full description by officer Taylor Wetzel

01:17:13.780 was as follows. The witness said Austin Metcalfe had told Carmelo Anthony that Anthony needed to

01:17:21.740 move out from under their team's tent. Anthony grabbed his bag, opened it, reached inside,

01:17:26.060 proceeded to tell Austin, touch me and see what happens. No one nearby really thought that Carmelo

01:17:31.020 Anthony had a weapon. Austin proceeded to touch Carmelo Anthony. And then Anthony told Austin Metcalfe

01:17:37.780 to punch him and see what happened. Short time later, Austin grabbed Anthony to tell him to move.

01:17:42.240 Anthony pulled out, uh, a black knife and stabbed Austin once in the chest and then ran away.

01:17:48.600 Uh, two witnesses were spoken to as well. One of whom was the victim's twin brother,

01:17:54.100 but we're too distraught at the moment to give an instant statement. Um, he's been charged now.

01:17:59.020 We've been indicted by a grand jury on a first degree murder, first degree murder. There is capital

01:18:05.260 murder, meaning you could be put to death in Texas, Dave, but only if you've killed a police officer,

01:18:10.900 killed more than one person or committed murder for hire among other limited exceptions, not,

01:18:16.900 not, uh, present here. Moreover, this is the Supreme court said you can't impose the death penalty for

01:18:22.820 someone who committed a crime under the age of 18. This family, Carmelo Anthony's family has tried to

01:18:28.940 turn this into a race war and they have repeatedly come out through their spokesperson who seems like 0.95

01:18:35.640 an absolute F and loon to try to say, this is what it's like to be a black man in America. 0.98

01:18:42.840 This is all about race. A black man in America can't even defend himself. Um, and that seems to be the 1.00

01:18:50.380 real defense as far as I see it, because I don't, I'm not sure how he's going to claim self-defense

01:18:55.280 based on Austin Metcalf placing hands on him. Your thoughts. Yeah. Under the law of self-defense, you can't

01:19:03.460 provoke someone and then claim self-defense. If you were the initial aggressor, we saw this in the Kyle

01:19:09.600 Rittenhouse case, which Viva mentioned, and that's going to be the prosecution's argument is that was the

01:19:16.940 defendant, the one who provoked the situation? And the answer seems to be yes. So you can't just provoke

01:19:23.160 someone, threaten someone. And when the person touches you, that gives you the right to say,

01:19:27.120 self-defense, I kill you. So I think that will fail. And I think you're, you've hit upon something. 0.97

01:19:32.420 Prosecutors have their greatest fear and that's jury nullification. It's not supposed to happen,

01:19:37.600 but that's when the jury just ignores the law and just goes with their gut or sympathy for the

01:19:42.060 defendant. And perhaps that's where they're going for here to try to create a racial divide,

01:19:46.100 hoping to get jurors who will be sympathetic to their arguments because they perhaps realize that

01:19:51.180 their self-defense argument is failing. So this is going to be won and lost perhaps in jury

01:19:56.440 selection. It's going to be really important during what's called voir dire that the prosecution

01:20:00.760 sorts out those who can't follow the evidence and the law.

01:20:04.820 So Viva, they're, I think on the defense side, doing their best to poison the jury pool

01:20:08.740 right now. I'm going to give you a flavor for the family spokesman, just so you know who I'm

01:20:12.960 talking about. What I'm going to tell you, he's saying after the soundbite is not on tape,

01:20:16.480 but I just want you to get the flavor of who we're dealing with now. His name is Dominique

01:20:19.980 Alexander. This is him from April 17th, right after it happened, side 18.

01:20:25.820 Black people in America, while the current occupant sits at 1600 Pennsylvania,

01:20:34.140 black people in America don't have to pull the race card. It's what we live as a reality every day.

01:20:41.580 It's what we have to teach our children. We don't want to, but we have to.

01:20:49.720 We don't like to, but if we want to sleep at night, we got to.

01:20:54.820 I ain't pulling no race card. I live it. I'm reminded all the time that I'm a black man in

01:21:03.740 America. My Lord, he's surrounded by Carmelo Anthony's parents right behind him. And so here's

01:21:08.980 what he's saying now. Still the spokesman for the family. They're allowing this very clearly.

01:21:12.900 Um, in a June 24th ex post pleaded with Carmelo's supporters to stand with us in the fight against

01:21:19.900 white supremacy. Um, it came right after he was formally indicted. He added quote to the racists,

01:21:26.620 the bigots, and those filled with hate who have targeted Carmelo, his family, even myself,

01:21:32.360 you do not intimidate us. We are not backing down. This case is yet another example of what it means to

01:21:39.460 be black in America, where even our self-defense is questioned, scrutinized, and politicized.

01:21:47.840 Unreal. He's, he's reserved himself a special seat in hell. You know, in the beginning people, 0.99

01:21:55.600 I say people on both sides were trying to racialize this. You know, people were saying it's black on

01:21:59.460 white violence. It shows the disparate, um, perpetrators of violent crime. And I'm saying, 0.79

01:22:04.460 you know, to me, this is a young kid with a not fully developed brain acting like an idiot, 1.00

01:22:11.100 whether or not he thought he intended to just, you know, like whether or not he reasonably thought 0.99

01:22:15.280 he could kill somebody with one strike of a knife, set that aside to claim self-defense in my humble

01:22:21.700 view, former Quebec attorney, never did criminal law patently absurd. I don't care what the self-defense

01:22:27.020 laws of the state are, stand your ground, et cetera. To say, uh, I touch your shoulder. I get to

01:22:32.600 stab you in the heart and whether or not he thought it was the heart to stab you in the body, 0.97

01:22:36.720 in my view, will never be legitimate self-defense, even to a jury. But I became more convinced that 0.81

01:22:42.220 there was in fact a racial element to this because of what the family's doing now, which is trying to

01:22:47.260 racialize it almost as a preemptive using a shield as both a shield and a sword to argue race. I think

01:22:54.180 this might've been racially motivated at the end of the day. The fact that there's a lot of video

01:22:57.800 evidence that is captured on cell phones that hasn't been released yet. If it did reveal some sort of

01:23:02.500 self-defense, I think it would have been, you know, leaked or whatever. There would have been

01:23:06.360 mentions to it. This might turn out very well to be something that was racially motivated,

01:23:10.740 a rich white kid in the views of Carmelo Anthony getting what he deserved. And they don't want to

01:23:14.900 release it because, you know, the authorities don't want to create a race war. The fact that the

01:23:18.920 defense is hell bent on doing it as a preemptive strike leads me to believe it might be there.

01:23:23.000 But bottom line, first degree murder warranted, try him as an adult warranted. And

01:23:28.180 this, there's, there's no element of self-defense that is remotely commensurate or, or comparable

01:23:33.880 to Kyle Rittenhouse, no matter how much they want to try.

01:23:36.200 Mm-hmm. I would not be surprised one bit to have this defense team at trial try to invent

01:23:43.740 some made up racial slur that was allegedly called out at Carmelo Anthony, because they seem

01:23:50.980 dead set on injecting race into this. When it seems like according to all the reports that happened

01:23:56.800 right after it happened, he didn't claim that the most he said was that he's a witness said was

01:24:03.420 that he had said to Austin, uh, put your hands on me and you'll see what happens. No one has alleged

01:24:10.180 just keep that in mind as we go closer and closer to trial, which is this time next year. No one has

01:24:14.560 alleged, uh, any sort of racial slur. And meanwhile, this Anthony family, which is allowing this loon

01:24:20.620 Dominic and Alexander to continue doing this with race. They're asking for, um, fundraise. They're

01:24:26.300 holding a fundraiser. They want another, well, what they're already seeking. They've already

01:24:33.320 got 600,000 and they want another 800,000. They're asking, they raised their fundraising goal

01:24:40.020 from 600,000, which they achieved to 1.4 million on give, send, go. Uh, they're posting that some of

01:24:47.120 the money would go to basic living costs, transportation, counseling, and other security

01:24:53.320 measures. The daily mail reporting here that they will continue to use some of the cash for quote,

01:24:58.460 safe relocation after the daily mail reported that they bought a new car and already live now. I think

01:25:04.820 it's borrowed, but I'm not sure in a sprawling $800,000 home in a gated community. Um, again,

01:25:12.280 they've already raised it's the precise number is 544,000 and change as a 6 PM on Thursday. So I'm sorry,

01:25:20.420 but this family is looking very grifty. The dad is all over online threatening reporters who are

01:25:26.780 reporting on the case. None of this is going to come into evidence, but I would strongly advise

01:25:31.460 people to think twice before donating to this give, send, go from a family that's going to try to create

01:25:38.440 a race war over their sons, depraved indifference. That's what this looks like though. That's you tell

01:25:45.360 me, Dave, cause that's what's the depraved indifference standard. What, which, which kind

01:25:50.420 of murder does that come in on? Well, it depends on the state, but generally depraved indifference

01:25:55.380 in human life would be a second degree murder, but you can get them on first degree murder here is

01:25:59.340 as a premeditated perhaps too, but either way, the maximum penalty he could get would be life

01:26:05.000 because he's a juvenile at the time. So he will be prosecuted for murder. And, and Viva's right.

01:26:10.100 In addition to the fact that it looks like this guy provoked it, you don't really, uh, you can't

01:26:14.740 really bring a knife to a fist fight. And if a guy pushes you, doesn't give you the right then to

01:26:19.120 take out a knife and slash in the death. So that is excessive force. I don't think they have a good 0.57

01:26:23.860 self-defense claim at all. And you can tell that they know it too, which is why they're trying to

01:26:28.300 bring up different things like race into this and not the facts of the actual case. Dave, why is he

01:26:34.420 out on bail? Why is he out on bail? And why are they seeking more and more money while he's out on bail?

01:26:38.580 I mean, if I, if I, if I were the prosecutor, I'd be a little concerned that they suddenly need

01:26:42.560 $800,000 and there's a trial date set or they need the $800,000 right after he officially gets

01:26:48.640 indicted on first degree murder. I mean, there's obviously somewhat of a flight risk here.

01:26:53.580 There's always a presumption in the law to give someone pre-trial release and especially if they're

01:26:58.160 underage. So they convinced the court to do that obviously, but you're right. Generally in a murder

01:27:04.240 case, you're not going to see people walk out of jail pre-trial. So I don't understand what happened

01:27:11.860 there, except they use the age of the defendant in his favor and probably had no priors and they

01:27:20.000 probably deemed that he's not a flight risk and that he is not a threat to the community and that

01:27:24.700 he's not a threat to intimidate witnesses. But in a murder case, generally that's not the presumption

01:27:30.540 given. Generally the, in a murder case, you would see that person remanded into custody.

01:27:35.220 Absolutely right. I don't know. To me that, that, that jumps out as a real anomaly. And I think this

01:27:41.380 guy's, I don't know. I think there's a real chance of risk of flight, a real chance of flight because

01:27:45.780 they got him, they got him dead to rights. He confessed. I'm not alleged. I did it. And you're

01:27:51.180 going to have cops testify to that and witnesses testify to that. I have, I have yet to hear one thing

01:27:55.740 that helps him in the evidence that's come out so far. Uh, what the, his defense seems to be

01:28:00.820 I'm black and he was white. Good luck. Okay. This, this, this is Texas. Yes. I grant you Texas has

01:28:07.780 gotten a little woker as a bunch of Democrats have moved down there, but they haven't lost their

01:28:12.240 ever loving minds. And, um, I don't think this is going to work. All right. Stand by more with Dave

01:28:17.180 and Viva right after this quick break. The American dream has changed. Forget the white picket fence for

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01:31:43.680 So this last case is right in your backyard, Dave, and I know you have a personal connection to it

01:31:48.620 next month. A woman named Donna Adelson Adelson is going to go on trial in Florida for first degree 1.00

01:31:56.740 murder. This is the culmination of years of criminal trials and accusations involving Donna's now deceased

01:32:06.040 son-in-law. Donna's daughter, Wendy, was married to a man named Dan Markle,

01:32:12.240 and they got a divorce and they had a bitter custody dispute over their two sons.

01:32:17.820 Donna and, sorry, Wendy, the wife, and Dan lived in Tallahassee, which is more north in Florida,

01:32:24.480 but Wendy's mom, Donna, and her other family lived farther south in Florida, down by Miami,

01:32:32.440 and she really wanted to move down there with her two boys, and the husband, Dan, the boy's father,

01:32:37.060 did not want that. He objected. The thing was getting more and more bitter. He had just filed

01:32:43.880 a petition in the court to stop the boys from having unsupervised visits with the grandma,

01:32:49.640 Donna, Wendy's mom, because he alleged that she'd been constantly disparaging him in the presence of

01:32:55.560 his sons. It was never ruled upon because Dan was killed in his garage after having just pulled in

01:33:04.040 in his car before it could ever be heard, and within a day or two, Wendy Adelson moved from

01:33:12.160 Tallahassee down to Miami with her boys near her mother. Well, it didn't take police long to figure

01:33:18.440 out who had conducted the murders. Somebody had seen a Prius on the property. They started pulling

01:33:25.200 up security cam and gas station cams and so on during that day to see if they could find anybody

01:33:32.640 following Dan Markle's car. They did. They found a green Prius. They ran the plates. It was a rental

01:33:38.460 car. They traced it back to the two people who actually were in the garage committing the murder,

01:33:44.740 Luis Rivera and another man named Sigfredo Garcia. Now, unfortunately for the Adelsons,

01:33:52.520 one of those men, Sigfredo Garcia had been married to a woman named Kate and Kate was also involved

01:34:03.780 with Wendy Adelson's brother, Charlie. So in other words, the two shooters had a direct connection

01:34:12.820 to Wendy Adelson or at least her brother. So now the police managed to put those two shooters in jail.

01:34:20.220 One copped a deal and got a better sentence than the other. The one who copped the deal got second

01:34:24.420 degree murder and he'll be out at some point. The one who didn't cop the deal got first degree

01:34:27.740 murder away for life. He turned in the ex-wife of the main shooter, Kate, and she at first said,

01:34:35.980 I had nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with nothing. Well, she went to jail for first degree 1.00

01:34:39.220 murder. They didn't believe it. They said, Kate, you clearly hired these two guys. They're both saying

01:34:43.620 you hired them. So now she goes to jail forever. But eventually Kate says, I did it because Charlie,

01:34:51.020 the brother of Wendy Adelson hired me. This is Charlie. Charlie really, really, really loved his

01:34:59.220 sister, loved his sister so much. He really wanted her down in Tallahassee, and so he said, hey, Kate,

01:35:05.680 my girlfriend slash employee, could you get your dirtbag ex-husband who's a gang member to kill 1.00

01:35:12.920 Wendy's ex-husband? And that's exactly what she did. And he paid her a bunch of money. 1.00

01:35:19.480 And then she paid the two shooters a bunch of money. And now Charlie is in prison for the rest

01:35:24.180 of his life. Eventually the prosecutors, they went through the two shooters, boom, convictions.

01:35:28.120 They went to Kate who arranged it, boom, conviction for life. Kate rolled on Charlie,

01:35:32.840 the brother of Wendy, you know, the ones getting the divorce. And boom, Charlie gets put away for

01:35:38.220 life. And that leads us to Donna. So how do we get to Donna, Dave Ehrenberg, the grandmother of those

01:35:47.260 two little boys, the mother of Wendy? And by the way, what about Wendy? Thoughts on all of this?

01:35:54.380 Because Donna is the one going on trial next month. She's in a lot of trouble. Megan, this is a case near

01:36:00.720 and dear to me because I was friends with Danny Markell, who is the victim in this case. And no one

01:36:05.540 deserves his fate. But Danny Markell is a Harvard graduate who could have made a lot of money in the

01:36:09.900 legal field. But instead he wanted to teach. And he went to Florida State University in Tallahassee to

01:36:15.280 teach. And Wendy did not like it there. She wanted to move back to South Florida. It was a rift in their

01:36:21.540 marriage. He was traveling one day to New York to give a speech. And he came and he found that when he

01:36:26.640 came home that she had taken half of all the furniture and the kids and left. And then the

01:36:33.200 mother, Donna Adelson, was pressuring Wendy to do things to to leave, to go to South Florida, to 0.99

01:36:41.140 perhaps I'm not making this up. The mother, Donna, wanted Wendy to dress their kids in Nazi uniforms

01:36:49.600 because Danny was a devout Orthodox Jew. And he she wanted the kids to be dressed in Nazi uniforms or

01:36:57.980 to say that they're going to convert to to Christianity as a way to convince Danny to let

01:37:04.500 them go to South Florida or else this was what was going to happen. They even tried to bribe him.

01:37:09.120 They tried to bribe him for a million dollars, let the kids go. And when none of that stuff worked,

01:37:13.140 the family in coordination with these killers killed him. And and it was just awful. And so, yes,

01:37:20.460 Charlie's in prison. Donna's next. Donna made some incriminating phone calls with with Charlie. 0.84

01:37:26.200 There's some recorded messages that look bad for her, but nothing looks worse for her than the fact

01:37:30.340 that she tried to flee. Talk about conscience of guilt. She got one way plane tickets. I mean, at least

01:37:36.620 by the round trip tickets. Right. She got one way plane tickets to Vietnam, a country with no extradition

01:37:42.600 treaty with the United States. And why did she go? Why did she do that? Because on a recorded phone

01:37:47.260 call with Charlie, she said, I'm either going to kill myself or I'm going to go to a non extraditable 1.00

01:37:52.420 country. Well, she did the latter. She's in prison now awaiting trial. But there's other things.

01:37:57.340 She apparently gave Charlie the money the night of the murder. She came over and handed him money in

01:38:04.300 an envelope. And the money was moldy. Why was the money moldy? Because according to Kate McBanawad,

01:38:11.100 Charlie's girlfriend, the money was washed. This was Donna Adelson, amateur criminal trying to 1.00

01:38:18.640 launder the money by literally washing it. And that's why it was moldy. And then there are other

01:38:23.240 things like she's on recording. There was this thing called the bump. The bump was this undercover

01:38:27.520 officer who went up there on the street and made her think that he was related to one of the killers

01:38:33.380 and he was asking Donna for money. And she responded in a way that was very complicit. That was something

01:38:38.800 that you would never do unless you were guilty yourself. She didn't go to the police. She didn't

01:38:42.600 say, what? I had nothing to do with it. She called the guy afterwards on the phone number and tried to

01:38:49.900 talk to him. And then at the end said, I'll call you back. Like, OK, that's not how an innocent person

01:38:55.460 acts. Yeah. But we always say if you've ever committed a crime and someone comes up to you and

01:39:01.100 tries to talk to you about the crime, the only proper response is that is not a thing. No,

01:39:07.060 I did not do the thing that you say I did. There is no world in which you should be entertaining the

01:39:14.500 blackmail attempt against you or revisiting your crime. I mean, this is criminality one-on-one

01:39:19.480 people. We have a bit of that, the bump. Yeah, go ahead, Dave. Yeah. Well, she tried. She tried to

01:39:23.960 say things like that. But then quickly, it was like when she was on the phone with him,

01:39:27.280 that broke down. And she was like, well, OK, I'll call you back. No, not once that she called

01:39:33.880 the police. If that happened to you, Megan, and someone said you'd call the cops or you'd take

01:39:38.040 the note that the undercover cop gave you and throw it in the trash. She kept the note. She

01:39:42.340 kept the number. She followed up with him and she tried to negotiate with him. And she's going to get

01:39:47.240 Because what happened was those two shooters went to jail and they hadn't yet gotten turned on to

01:39:52.700 Charlie. But at that point, this guy, this FBI agent comes to her like, hey, you know, I'm connected

01:39:59.380 with one of those shooters and he needs to be taken care of. And I like, I understand you might be

01:40:03.340 giving some payouts to keep people quiet, you know, because her family hadn't gone down yet

01:40:06.820 and approached her as if like, you know, there's a chance he's going to turn on your son or somebody

01:40:13.160 else unless you do something about this. So they got to her before she realized her own neck was on the 0.99

01:40:18.280 chopping block. And, uh, she still thought she was in control. Here is a bit of that, the bump FBI

01:40:24.840 sting moment in SOT-14.

01:40:27.960 Excuse me, Mrs. Adelson? How you doing? I just want to give you this. Um, listen,

01:40:33.920 I'm scared. Don't be scared. Listen, I just want to let you know that, um, we know that your family,

01:40:40.460 uh, has been taking care of Katie and her friends who don't have a place in time after your problem

01:40:46.700 and I want to let you know that my brother, he's incarcerated. He helped your family with

01:40:53.340 this problem you guys had up north. And we want to make sure that he's going through some rough

01:40:58.560 times and we want to make sure that you take care of what he's going through, the way you're

01:41:03.460 taking care of Katie and, uh, Tuzo.

01:41:05.880 I just want to say that my hidden body camera in my baby Lisa special was much more effectively

01:41:22.080 operated than that, that FBI. I'm sorry, but you've got a point that the breasts directly at 0.97

01:41:29.780 the subject. It's government, Megan. It's, it's, it's why the cameras are turned off in Jeffrey

01:41:35.860 Epstein's cell, right? It's very simple. I don't know why he didn't nail that, but in any event,

01:41:41.740 she, she sounds guilty and Viva before I give it to you, here's one more. Um, after Charlie was

01:41:47.640 convicted. Okay. So like she must, she messed up how she handled the bump. Then her son, Charlie did

01:41:53.680 get indicted, convicted after just three hours of deliberation. The jury wasn't even tempted to find

01:42:00.840 him not guilty for the sound of it. She called him in prison. She was very upset that he had gotten,

01:42:06.800 I mean, this is what happens when you ask your son to commit a murder. He could go to jail for the rest

01:42:11.460 of his life. Those are the allegations against her. She denies them. And, um, they Charlie hung up,

01:42:18.280 but she didn't hang up. You know how like sometimes you talk to an elderly person on the phone and they

01:42:23.720 never hang up and you have to hang up. Well, she didn't hang up and the jailhouse recording kept

01:42:29.860 going. And that's how we know she thought she might kill herself or go off to Vietnam. Listen to

01:42:37.320 SOT 12 and SOT 13 in succession.

01:42:43.760 My suicidal now.

01:42:45.480 Go to sleep and not see my son. I do. Perfectly honest. I do.

01:42:50.520 And we'll do it together. Leave a note. They'll know when to come and get us. And we'll do it

01:42:56.100 together. The boy, look, I'm going to make a decision at some point. So after speaking to them

01:43:04.360 this morning and knowing what they're thinking up there, I don't know if we'll make it out in time.

01:43:09.420 I really don't. I've been looking it up over and over. Things change if there is extradition from

01:43:15.100 Vietnam because we looked at all the places. I mean, I could go to Korea and China, but there's

01:43:20.580 no extradition. She doesn't want to go to Korea. Yeah. She wants to go to Vietnam. And that video

01:43:26.260 we were just showing was of her being arrested at the airport via law and crime when they nabbed her.

01:43:32.160 The feds had been listening. They heard that jail jailhouse conversation and she did not get

01:43:37.200 on board the flight to Vietnam, all of which is admissible against her Viva.

01:43:42.380 Look, I wasn't paying attention to this case. It's so patently stupid. Like Robert Barnes and I 1.00

01:43:48.760 on our Sunday show, we always talk about the fact that you can be dumb and you can be a criminal, 1.00

01:43:52.920 but you can't be a dumb criminal. How anybody thinks you get away with this in this day and age, 0.99

01:43:58.100 by the way, just for the police, you know, not for nothing, a GoPro costs 400 bucks.

01:44:03.340 One of these little things get high quality HD. But I feel that it's it would be comical if this

01:44:09.980 were a movie, but it's real life and someone's dead. This is Fargo level, you know, stupid level 1.00

01:44:15.460 criminality. And I don't know what kind of person thinks you deal with life's problems like this. 1.00

01:44:19.940 My question about the old lady is whether or not she had a history of mental illness or anything 0.99

01:44:24.220 else in her in her in her life that would indicate she would resort to murder for hire to solve a 0.98

01:44:29.440 family dispute. But may they all rot in jail and burn in hell? Because, you know, I presume the 1.00

01:44:36.120 case is tight, that there's evidence of payment coordination. I don't know. I don't know if the

01:44:40.400 case is tight. I think she did it. I think she did it, Dave. Donna. I think Wendy did it, too. I think

01:44:46.300 the ex-wife is totally involved. She's completely denied it. And she's also, Wendy, been given some

01:44:51.520 limited government immunity to testify in a couple of these trials. So you tell me, because the case,

01:44:56.660 I'm not sure if the case against the grandma is anywhere near as open and shut as the one against

01:45:01.400 Charlie, the son was. And I also have real questions about Wendy. Why isn't she getting charged? And does

01:45:06.760 that limited immunity they've given her to testify at a couple of these trials extend so far to like,

01:45:12.860 she could not be charged if Donna gets convicted. Could Wendy also find herself up next?

01:45:18.600 I think that if and when, and I do think it's a when Donna is convicted, then Wendy is likely to 0.87

01:45:25.060 be charged next. Now, I'm friends with the prosecutor up there, Jack Campbell. He has not

01:45:29.740 given me any inside information. But you can see where he's been going on this. The state attorney

01:45:34.820 up there has taken the strategy of going one at a time. First, they went after the hitman. Then they

01:45:40.540 went after the conduit, the girlfriend, Catherine Magbanawa. They had to try her twice. The first time

01:45:45.400 was a hung jury, 11 to one. And they finally got her on the second time. Unbelievable that

01:45:50.440 one juror held out. But now she's in prison for life, just like the killer is in prison

01:45:54.700 for life. And then they went to Charlie and they got him. And now he's in prison for life. Now

01:45:59.980 they're going to Donna. She could be in prison for life. And the reason why they're going one by one,

01:46:05.140 in part because it's a smallish prosecutor office. And I don't think they necessarily have the bandwidth

01:46:09.420 to try them all at the same time. But also, they got evidence on each one after they prosecuted the

01:46:15.140 other. So for example, had they prosecuted Donna at the same time as Charlie, they wouldn't have had

01:46:20.960 those audio recordings. They wouldn't have had evidence of her fleeing to Vietnam. So that helps. And so

01:46:26.880 I think they are being meticulous each time. And I don't think this case ends after this case unless

01:46:32.880 Donna is acquitted. And she's not going to be acquitted.

01:46:35.480 But how what evidence would they have against Wendy, though? Because you listen to the police

01:46:39.540 interrogation of Wendy, and this is all public because Florida has such great sunshine laws.

01:46:45.940 Wendy, in her initial interrogation after Dan showed up dead, was like, oh, my God, I have no

01:46:51.960 idea who could have done this. And she does say, oh, geez, my brother did make a joke about how he was

01:47:00.480 going to hire a hitman for me to get me through my divorce. But instead, it was cheaper to

01:47:05.460 just buy me this TV. But she said, that's just a stupid joke. He's made it many times. And then 1.00

01:47:09.600 she became very, very defensive of Charlie. And she certainly never sold her family up the river.

01:47:14.480 And I just don't see how they're good without one of those family members, Charlie, who's now I'm

01:47:18.200 sure bitter and in prison about the fact that he, you know, bitter that he did this for his sister

01:47:21.780 and lost his life. The mother's not going to turn. So you'd need one of them to turn on Wendy, 1.00

01:47:26.900 wouldn't you?

01:47:27.960 It would help. Mother's not going to turn. Maybe Charlie does to save himself. But

01:47:31.900 I do think you can prosecute and convict Wendy without them. It's going to be harder. She'll 0.94

01:47:36.820 be more difficult because it looks like they kept her out of a lot of this. But did she know about

01:47:41.680 it? Well, the code for the killing was TV. They talked about money for the TV. That was the code.

01:47:47.960 Well, what was she doing the night, the day of the murder? She was having her TV repaired. Also,

01:47:53.480 I mean, is that a thing that when your TV breaks, you get it repaired? Don't just buy a new one. I mean,

01:47:57.500 is that still a thing of TV repair? But also she went to the to the scene of the crime. She didn't

01:48:03.240 live near it and she didn't have to drive that way. She said she was going to get alcohol from

01:48:08.600 for a party. She was bringing over a bottle of something. She went to the liquor store,

01:48:11.920 which was near where Dan lived. But there was a liquor store a lot closer where she lived. And

01:48:16.580 she found herself on the street right after the murder, checking it out. And the police had to

01:48:22.860 redirect her car away. Why was she there? And then there's questions of that she was lying about

01:48:28.540 her route that she took. There's there's all these unanswered questions. Also, when she found

01:48:32.980 out that there was a police scene in the area of Dan's house, well, her kids could have been there,

01:48:38.600 right? Wouldn't you inquire about your kids? She never inquired about her kids. Also, there's a very

01:48:42.600 suspicious message that she left Charlie, a text message out of nowhere that said it was about the

01:48:48.980 time that the murder was was ordered that said, I will never forget what you've done for me.

01:48:55.640 Something like that, to that extent. I mean, it's very peculiar, right? Also, there's a boyfriend

01:49:00.840 that she was with at the time when she was separated from divorced from Danny, a guy named Jeffrey

01:49:06.160 Lacasse. Jeffrey Lacasse is testifying and has been open about how Wendy was trying to set him up for the

01:49:14.760 murder. That Wendy was asking, when are you going out of town and tried to to make sure he was out

01:49:20.840 of town right during the time of or the murder so that he could be blamed for it somehow and or not

01:49:27.200 be out of town. It's something about the scheduling of Jeffrey Lacasse. So he's going to be a key

01:49:30.640 witness against her. And he also thinks she did it, too.

01:49:34.500 That's like the family appears to be diabolical. The only one not getting pulled into the web

01:49:39.760 is Donna, the grandmother's husband, who hasn't been accused. But one by one, they are being

01:49:45.220 methodical of holding people accountable for this man's murder shot in the head in his own car. His

01:49:51.020 keys were still in the ignition when they found the body. Absolutely merciless, brutal. And that's

01:49:56.360 what the prosecution has been with anyone suspected to be connected to it. We're going to stay on it

01:50:01.260 because the case launches next month. Again, there will be cameras in the courtroom and we'll see what

01:50:06.120 this grandma's defense will be. Dave and Viva, you guys worked overtime today. That's a long

01:50:11.020 Kelly's Court. Thank you so much for all of your expertise and offerings. Thank you very much for

01:50:16.160 having us. Thank you. All right, guys, you guys have a great weekend. All of you have a great weekend.

01:50:21.120 I'm heading down now to see Charlie Kirk at his student action conference. Going to do that tonight

01:50:26.900 in Tampa. And I will be back live with you on Monday. Have a great weekend.

01:50:32.520 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 11, 2025

Rumblings on Epstein ＂Client List,＂ Kohberger Inspiration, and Grandma on Trial For Son-in-Law's Murder, with Dave Aronberg and Viva Frei ｜ Ep. 1106

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