The Megyn Kelly Show - Running Directly Into the Fight, Honoring Those We've Lost, and Fatherhood, with Dakota Meyer

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

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00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.620 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.840 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.280 That dress?

00:00:21.060 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

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00:00:25.720 Stop wondering.

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00:00:30.620 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.420 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.220 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.080 Memorial Day is this weekend.

00:00:47.100 And as you know, it's not just a time for vacation,

00:00:49.600 but a time to reflect on and honor

00:00:51.980 the brave men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice

00:00:55.520 while serving this great country of ours.

00:00:57.560 heroes who risked everything to protect our freedom.

00:01:01.580 And our guest today is a man who did exactly that.

00:01:05.680 Dakota Meyer is a U.S. Marine who served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

00:01:08.880 In 2009, during the Battle of Ganjigal, Dakota defied orders to storm into an ambush of our guys

00:01:17.000 in an effort to save his friends.

00:01:19.400 He repeatedly entered a valley with more than 50 Taliban fighters shooting at him from three

00:01:24.780 different sides to bring both American and Afghan soldiers to safety.

00:01:29.480 He is credited with saving 36 lives that day in acts of bravery so incomprehensible in their scope

00:01:38.340 that 60 Minutes later reported on them as follows.

00:01:42.260 I have never seen the like.

00:01:44.900 That's what a helicopter pilot who had watched a 21-year-old Marine stave off a Taliban ambush

00:01:49.820 that threatened to overrun his unit told us.

00:01:52.440 We interviewed a number of pilots who were there that day,

00:01:57.100 and several of them stopped in mid-sentence,

00:02:00.520 unable to finish their description of Meyer's actions that day.

00:02:06.420 They just didn't have the words to describe it.

00:02:08.700 Dakota was awarded the Medal of Honor,

00:02:10.480 the highest honor in the military by President Obama for his bravery.

00:02:15.380 But the road forward for Dakota has not been without its challenges.

00:02:20.280 He is an example of what it means to sacrifice in the name of country,

00:02:24.320 to pick oneself up no matter how hard one falls,

00:02:28.960 an example of what it means to be a man and a Marine.

00:02:38.640 Welcome back to the show, Dakota.

00:02:40.480 Thank you so much.

00:02:41.280 I have been looking forward to this since the last time.

00:02:44.340 Me too.

00:02:45.200 Me too.

00:02:45.760 I actually lived in fear to see the email come in like,

00:02:49.240 Dakota wound up being busy.

00:02:50.940 Dakota can't do it.

00:02:51.960 I'm so happy that it actually is happening.

00:02:54.760 Yeah, no, it's awesome.

00:02:55.900 How are you?

00:02:56.800 I'm great.

00:02:57.620 I'm so great.

00:02:58.320 And just more enamored with you and your character than ever.

00:03:02.320 You know, one of the privileges of interviewing a guy like you is I get to spend tons of time

00:03:06.880 immersed in your story, you know, reading your books and just boning up on the details.

00:03:11.060 And it's just breathtaking.

00:03:13.260 And I know it's not always easy to go through, especially the details of a story like yours.

00:03:18.800 So I'm I'm honored that you've agreed to do it with me and my audience, especially on a day like this.

00:03:23.680 So thanks again.

00:03:25.040 OK, let's start back with little Dakota Meyer.

00:03:28.420 Little baby Dakota Meyer was born to a teenage mama who didn't know all that much about how to mother a young baby.

00:03:38.040 And while your dad was never really part of the picture at all, there was a man who would become critical to your life,

00:03:45.020 your character development and who you would become.

00:03:47.260 And tell us about how your mom got connected with him and who he was.

00:03:51.060 Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't I don't really know how I mean, I know it sounds weird.

00:03:56.380 I don't really know the story of how they got divorced, when they got divorced or anything like that.

00:04:02.120 I just know that, you know, the man that I call my my dad today, he I guess he adopted me at some point before they got divorced.

00:04:12.520 And he was married to my mother.

00:04:14.440 And then after they, you know, they they split up or whatever happened, then I, you know, I still stayed living with my mom.

00:04:23.600 But I was with my my dad, you know, like the I guess they call it expanded standard custody now.

00:04:29.240 Like I would see him every other Wednesday and and on the weekends.

00:04:32.780 And, you know, life with my mom was chaotic growing up.

00:04:36.360 I don't I don't blame my mom for anything.

00:04:39.260 My mom, I'll say it's my mom did the best that she could with me.

00:04:42.780 I could not imagine having a child when I was 17.

00:04:46.340 And, you know, I honestly, I carry a lot of guilt.

00:04:49.060 I feel bad that that, you know, I I probably changed the trajectory of her life.

00:04:55.060 Right. And but I was just so fortunate to have this man, you know, in the books, we call him Big Mike.

00:05:01.560 But, you know, to me, he's dad and just a man who, you know, it's hard enough to raise your own kids.

00:05:07.160 Right. It's hard enough to to to to show up and do and be the man that they need and to to to be that and just to choose somebody else's responsibility.

00:05:18.720 It's just such a testament to the man and the character that he is.

00:05:22.520 It really it is. Big Mike is he's quite a guy adopted you and raised you as his own.

00:05:28.480 And when she got to the point of saying, you know, I think it's better if you just take him.

00:05:31.640 He said, welcome home and and take you.

00:05:34.740 He did. Now, this is all down in I know you're born in Columbia, Kentucky.

00:05:38.480 Is that where you were living for your upbringing?

00:05:41.940 Yeah. So, you know, I grew up on a farm.

00:05:43.960 It's kind of in the middle between there's Columbia, Kentucky and Greensburg, Kentucky.

00:05:48.240 And we we literally live on the line of that.

00:05:50.780 And I grew up on a farm with, like I said, my dad and my grandparents.

00:05:55.280 And, yeah, I mean, when when my mom finally just said, hey, you know, you can take him.

00:05:59.740 It was over the summer of I think I started the fifth grade.

00:06:04.140 I started the fifth grade living with my dad.

00:06:06.980 And, you know, my mom called on there, forget that phone call.

00:06:10.120 And it was just such a relief to be able to stay with my dad and be over there.

00:06:14.980 And and yeah, I just stay with him from that point on.

00:06:17.940 Then did you have an ongoing relationship with your mom after that?

00:06:21.440 You know, I you know, I think she kind of like disappeared for a little bit and then she

00:06:27.740 she dodged back into life.

00:06:29.680 And, you know, I'd see her.

00:06:30.940 She lived up in Louisville.

00:06:32.040 And so it was obviously a long drive.

00:06:33.820 And then I would I mean, I go see her whenever there was time or she had time.

00:06:39.320 So I had to see her, you know, on the weekends sometimes.

00:06:42.560 But but, you know, she after after I moved out from being with her, I mean, as far as

00:06:49.960 like I never really seen her.

00:06:52.320 It was never really like a mother son relationship from that point on.

00:06:55.660 And so you're you become a good old Kentucky farm boy.

00:06:59.600 And Big Mike is tough in a loving way.

00:07:03.180 But I mean, I think he's sort of the guy who made a man out of you before you got to the

00:07:06.500 Marines.

00:07:06.860 And I love the stories about, you know, how he instilled that in you, just sort of tough

00:07:12.200 love.

00:07:12.760 But definitely both both pieces of that were present.

00:07:15.840 You know, he was tough, but he was loving.

00:07:18.240 So we talked about this a little bit the last time about Tinkerbell.

00:07:21.320 But what when you look back on sort of lessons that he that he taught you and sort of the

00:07:26.440 character development that he did of you, what jumps out?

00:07:30.000 You know, my my dad is I think the best way to put it.

00:07:33.780 And I know this is used a lot loosely, but my dad is unapologetic, unapologetically him.

00:07:39.120 Right.

00:07:39.960 And there's something to be said about that.

00:07:41.540 My dad, you know, you know, criticize how he lives his life.

00:07:44.860 You critique that you critique how he how he handles himself or whatever presents himself

00:07:49.660 or how he delivers things.

00:07:50.840 But my dad lives life on his own terms.

00:07:55.060 And, you know, my dad, I know one thing that he instilled in me growing up was, you know,

00:08:00.360 we're not going to try to keep up with the fads or the, you know, in school and especially

00:08:04.560 in a small town.

00:08:05.540 You know, there's a lot of cliques and, you know, you're there's a lot of social statuses

00:08:09.300 or, you know, your last name or, you know, what you wear, you know, all that.

00:08:13.840 I mean, it's especially growing up is is is as a factor of where you stand in in the social

00:08:20.380 social status.

00:08:21.260 And my dad didn't care.

00:08:22.880 My dad cared about you doing the right thing.

00:08:24.840 And, you know, the the thing that I really just I'm I'm more and more aware of every single

00:08:33.640 day is the honor that they had with our name.

00:08:37.480 Right.

00:08:37.960 Like, you know, we die.

00:08:39.500 It doesn't matter what you have and it doesn't matter what you you know, what how much money

00:08:43.680 you made and none of that stuff matters.

00:08:45.580 But the last thing that people remember is is your is is your last name.

00:08:51.440 It's on your tombstone.

00:08:53.200 And and keeping that clean and keeping that honorable is something that, you know, my dad's

00:08:59.360 always done.

00:09:00.500 My dad's always he was all about being fair.

00:09:03.420 He's all about doing what you say you're going to do.

00:09:05.280 He was all about, you know, accountability.

00:09:07.480 I mean, these are all these are all factors that that my dad instilled in me.

00:09:12.340 And, you know, it wasn't something that he, you know, he taught just by pointing it at

00:09:17.960 you.

00:09:18.300 It was something my dad taught you by the way he lived his life and the way that my grandfather

00:09:22.260 lived his life and my grandmother lived your life.

00:09:24.560 And these were all things that were very important.

00:09:26.920 And these were these were non-negotiables.

00:09:28.700 These were these were principles that were instilled instilled in our family that were that were

00:09:34.760 not these were non you know, there was no give on those.

00:09:39.340 So what were you like as a boy?

00:09:41.160 Were you were you a little rascal or were you how were you?

00:09:44.820 You know, I I was I was I was a handful.

00:09:47.680 Right.

00:09:47.920 I'll say this.

00:09:48.520 I was never put in handcuffs.

00:09:50.920 OK, check.

00:09:51.780 I had that going for me, you know, but I think I was your typical high school student.

00:09:56.460 Right.

00:09:56.760 I mean, I played I played sports.

00:09:58.420 I was, you know, I was I was always out getting into stuff.

00:10:02.800 I definitely tried to toe the line.

00:10:06.600 You know, if you look, if you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much too much

00:10:09.320 space.

00:10:09.740 Right.

00:10:10.100 So, I mean, I was always into something.

00:10:12.020 I was always into pushing the limits on everything that I could.

00:10:15.800 And but but I think that that's, you know, again, back to my dad's to my dad's raising.

00:10:24.320 You know, he let me he let me figure life out on my own.

00:10:28.180 Right.

00:10:28.440 As long as I wasn't going to hurt somebody else and I wasn't putting myself in danger,

00:10:32.880 you know, like kind of figure it out.

00:10:34.360 You know, my dad, you know, he was a he was a single dad raising me, which just is a whole

00:10:40.060 other factor.

00:10:40.740 Right.

00:10:41.100 And and imagine doing that.

00:10:43.640 Imagine doing that when you didn't have this technology of cell phones, of locations.

00:10:48.620 And, you know, I mean, I just we had none of that.

00:10:51.760 Yeah.

00:10:51.940 And, you know, just going out and riding four wheelers, living on a farm, you know, running

00:10:56.680 tractors, cutting hay, like, you know, doing all these things.

00:11:00.460 And and but but doing it, you know, figuring life out on my own a little bit, having my

00:11:07.320 left and right lateral limits of, you know, to be able to get through these challenges

00:11:11.420 and to be able to face these obstacles and have to think on my own and not have someone

00:11:15.740 over my shoulder protecting me every single, you know, every inch of the way.

00:11:19.360 And that's yeah.

00:11:20.340 I mean, so I was I was always into something always like it.

00:11:23.860 But that's amazing.

00:11:24.560 I mean, we just we just interviewed Jonathan Haidt on the program.

00:11:27.420 Haidt.

00:11:27.720 It's spelled haidt, but it's pronounced haidt and he's you know, he wrote The Coddling

00:11:33.680 of the American Mind.

00:11:34.480 And he was talking about how we have to stop with the helicopter parenting.

00:11:38.200 We have to start raising independent thinkers and kids who understand the value in taking

00:11:44.280 risks and just know in their hearts that they can do something new because they've done

00:11:50.680 it time and time again without a parent leaning over their shoulder watching them.

00:11:53.980 You know, we're not doing that anymore.

00:11:55.080 And Big Mike did not need that lesson in parenting.

00:11:58.400 He was living it.

00:12:00.100 Yeah.

00:12:00.260 I mean, I just don't think I don't think that my dad could have done it right.

00:12:04.240 I mean, I don't like he didn't have the capabilities to it.

00:12:06.300 My dad worked, you know, 60 hours a week at his at his at his full time job.

00:12:11.140 And then he came home and he worked another 40 to 60 on the farm.

00:12:13.820 And, you know, my dad, that's what he did.

00:12:15.720 I mean, that that was a way of life.

00:12:17.560 And, you know, so there was no time to, you know, it was a team effort around the house,

00:12:23.980 right?

00:12:24.200 Like you had to pull your weight because there was so many things that need to get done.

00:12:27.620 And that was just kind of how we we lived.

00:12:30.300 And, you know, so with that comes responsibility and it comes growing up.

00:12:34.400 And and I'm thankful that my dad lived like that where I'm thankful that my dad, you know,

00:12:38.800 that my dad instilled those values in me, because that's that's that's the difference

00:12:42.720 between me and the generation that had someone helicopter piloting or, you know, helicopter

00:12:47.020 parenting over them is it taught me these these critical skills to be able to think past

00:12:53.300 what someone tells me to do or or to just, you know, follow follow the leader.

00:12:58.780 It but it's also you're not just different from the generation that followed you.

00:13:02.180 You're just different from everyone because the, you know, the vast majority of people,

00:13:08.260 even a lot of Marines would not have done exactly what you did and have taken so many

00:13:15.260 risks repeatedly at, you know, that endangered your life.

00:13:19.840 I mean, no disparagement to the Marines whatsoever.

00:13:22.140 I'm just saying, like, there's a reason you were only, I think, what, the second person to

00:13:26.500 receive the second Marine to receive the Medal of Honor since 1974.

00:13:29.860 I mean, it's not that extraordinary acts of bravery hadn't preceded you.

00:13:34.540 It's just that yours were really extraordinary.

00:13:38.980 And so part of what's interesting to me is, like, how does one raid raise a Dakota Meyer?

00:13:45.720 How does one build a Dakota Meyer?

00:13:48.140 Like what happened in your childhood?

00:13:50.800 Was it, you know, I mean, we could get totally psychological.

00:13:53.300 Was it your feeling of abandonment by your biological dad or your mom or like, was there some benefit

00:13:58.700 to being sort of shuffled around under her wing when she was going sort of from place to

00:14:02.100 place?

00:14:02.540 Like, was it all big Mike?

00:14:03.900 Was it life on the farm?

00:14:04.800 Like, do you have any insight into what made you the way you are?

00:14:09.780 Well, I think, you know, I think one aspect of it is, is, uh, is I, I don't know, like,

00:14:17.740 you know, obviously, obviously, you know, my, you know, my dad, you know, my dad kept me safe,

00:14:24.520 right?

00:14:24.800 Like I, by no means that was I ever in any harm, but I never had anybody take up for me.

00:14:30.400 So I had to figure it out on my own, right?

00:14:32.440 I mean, I can remember these two guys in, uh, in elementary school that just tortured me.

00:14:37.900 Like, I mean, I, I mean, literally growing up, um, you know, especially in middle school,

00:14:45.480 I mean, I, I thought Goodwill was a brand, right?

00:14:48.280 I mean, I, I didn't, I didn't know.

00:14:49.560 I mean, I, I mean, I used to, literally, I grew up in a trailer park, right?

00:14:53.200 Um, and, and I, you know, so, I mean, that, that's a kid, kids like that get made fun of

00:14:59.480 and, you know, you, you got a choice to make and, and it just, you know, you know, that pain

00:15:05.340 of, of, of not understanding why someone is making fun of you, especially at that age,

00:15:10.840 right?

00:15:11.120 Uh, of why someone is, is looking down on you or why someone is, is making you feel

00:15:15.580 this way.

00:15:16.460 And then, and then I think that what happens is, is, you know, I go to my dad's and I watch

00:15:22.940 my dad stand up for what's right.

00:15:24.360 My dad, like there was, my dad was always about standing up for what's right, right?

00:15:28.220 Like you don't compromise on right.

00:15:29.840 There, there is a right and there is a wrong with everything.

00:15:31.740 You don't compromise right for wrong at any, at any stance.

00:15:34.880 And it doesn't, it doesn't matter what the cost is.

00:15:37.600 And, you know, my grandfather was a Marine and, and that man was, you know, he, he was

00:15:44.160 about accountability.

00:15:46.060 And I just think that like, I think you add all those aspects up and then growing up on

00:15:51.520 a farm and the whole thing about having a farm is, is these living creatures come before

00:15:57.520 you, you know, like, I mean, we, we had cattle, we had, you know, we had all these responsibilities

00:16:03.880 and, you know, all that came first.

00:16:07.000 It didn't matter whether it was raining.

00:16:08.220 It didn't matter whether it was comfortable.

00:16:09.800 It didn't matter whether it was early.

00:16:11.440 It didn't matter whether it was Christmas.

00:16:12.640 It didn't matter whether it was your birthday.

00:16:14.480 They all still needed taken care of.

00:16:16.380 And so I think you, you put all these, these factors together about, you know, putting others

00:16:22.220 before you, even though it's animals, I mean, animals matter.

00:16:25.080 I mean, animals, you know, they're, they're, whether you're on a farm, it's, it's, it's your

00:16:29.500 livelihood sometimes, right?

00:16:31.920 And they rely on you and, and just growing up in these environments.

00:16:36.420 And, and I think that, you know, you turn that into, you know, not wanting other people

00:16:44.860 to hurt, right?

00:16:45.620 Like I can't stand when someone else hurts.

00:16:48.220 Like I can't stand when they get picked on.

00:16:50.220 I can't stand, you know, I, I hate, I hate bullies.

00:16:53.420 I hate when the, and I don't know if you call it the weaker person, right?

00:16:57.780 I hate, I hate the weaker person, but when the, the, when, when, when the less fortunate

00:17:02.960 or whatever it is, person gets picked on for no reason, uh, that I don't like that.

00:17:09.020 And I feel like I was fortunate enough to have a big Mike in my life that taught me how

00:17:13.960 to stand up and that demanded that I would stand up for, for not only myself, but, but

00:17:17.920 for, you know, for what was right.

00:17:19.460 And I think that, you know, all that combined together is just something that I can empathize

00:17:23.780 with people who are hurting and I want to help people who are hurt, who, who, who are

00:17:29.200 hurting, not hurt anymore.

00:17:30.880 So you're independent.

00:17:32.960 You, um, learn to take risks and deal with the consequences.

00:17:37.660 You hate bullies and you were taught to do the right thing, no matter the consequences

00:17:43.000 too.

00:17:43.300 And so we're seeing it, we're kind of seeing it come together, even if I'm sure you were

00:17:48.260 not seeing the man being built while it's being built, right?

00:17:51.720 You're just a kid, you're a kid in Kentucky and you're sort of doing what's expected of

00:17:55.640 you.

00:17:55.780 And then the next thing, you know, there's a guy, I think at your high school behind a

00:18:00.780 little recruiting table telling you, you cannot do it.

00:18:04.860 You cannot become a Marine.

00:18:06.140 You don't, you don't have it.

00:18:09.740 He told me, he said, uh, you know, I mean, I didn't even really know what the Marine

00:18:13.240 Corps was.

00:18:13.640 My grandfather was in the Korean war and, um, I mean, I never heard him talk about it.

00:18:17.700 I mean, I, I knew I'd like seen, uh, which I know now as an NCO sword.

00:18:22.560 I mean, I'd seen that I'd seen, you know, a little, you know, glimpses here and there,

00:18:27.340 like a picture of, of a plane.

00:18:28.800 And I never knew what it meant.

00:18:30.440 Right.

00:18:31.000 Um, I didn't know what the Marine Corps was.

00:18:33.500 And, uh, I was walking through my lunchroom one day.

00:18:36.540 Um, yeah, I walked through the lunchroom one day and I don't know what it was.

00:18:41.300 It just, you know, I thought I was going to go to college.

00:18:44.040 I mean, that's what everybody does where I'm from.

00:18:45.560 Like you go to college until you either graduate or you run out of your parents' money.

00:18:49.840 And, uh, then you come back home and you either work on the farm or you just get some job

00:18:53.360 back in town.

00:18:54.180 And that's kind of where you're at.

00:18:56.160 Right.

00:18:57.060 Um, and you know, the Marine was there and, and, and it, he, I went up to his table and

00:19:04.060 started talking to him at lunch and just, you know, we talked a little bit and he's like,

00:19:09.080 what are you going to do when you get out of high school?

00:19:10.460 And I, you know, I puffed my chest up and I was like, well, I'm going to go play football

00:19:12.960 somewhere and he's like, yeah, that's what I would do too.

00:19:15.240 There's no way you'd ever make it as a Marine.

00:19:17.960 No, you know, and, and I think that, I think that like for a lot of us, uh, that are Marines

00:19:25.300 or serve in the military or whatever.

00:19:27.320 Um, it's about the challenge, right?

00:19:28.940 It's about the challenge to, to, to, to, to accept it.

00:19:32.360 And that's what the Marine did.

00:19:33.440 He accepted, you know, he laid the challenge out there.

00:19:35.600 I left that, that evening or that actually I left that day to go sign up, um, signed

00:19:43.180 up.

00:19:43.460 My dad came in and, and, you know, uh, had no clue what I was doing, but I thought I was

00:19:48.160 going to college and then, you know, now I'm going to the Marine Corps and, um, signed

00:19:52.480 up for infantry.

00:19:53.340 And that was kind of it.

00:19:54.920 Like I left my hometown after, uh, after finishing up the school year and I actually spent

00:20:01.700 my 17th birthday or my 18th birthday and signed boot camp.

00:20:06.220 Wow.

00:20:06.660 Now you are, so what was that?

00:20:08.280 2000?

00:20:09.800 2006.

00:20:10.880 2006.

00:20:11.580 Yeah.

00:20:11.760 Cause you, you, you say you were 13 when we were attacked on nine 11.

00:20:14.760 Okay.

00:20:14.940 So 2006, you sign up, you go, I love this from, um, this is from your, your first book, um,

00:20:22.940 where you write into the fire where you write.

00:20:25.940 So it began the close haircuts to strip away your old identity exercises to prove you're

00:20:31.680 not half as strong as you figured simple tasks that show you are mentally weak drill

00:20:36.500 instructors who mock your attempts to look tough.

00:20:39.040 It's right out of the movies, but it never stops.

00:20:42.220 I never thought about it all that way.

00:20:44.220 Close haircuts to strip away your old identity, like trying to kind of break you down.

00:20:48.160 They're trying to break you down, humble you, get everybody even, and then build you

00:20:52.800 back up.

00:20:54.040 Yeah.

00:20:54.500 I mean, you know, bootcamp is kind of like when you, you know, after you're out of it,

00:20:58.260 uh, and you start looking back at it, you know, the Marine Corps has got it,

00:21:00.920 got it figured out, right?

00:21:02.160 Like, you know, one of the things that I think the Marine Corps does better than any

00:21:05.400 other branch is they teach the history.

00:21:07.680 Uh, they teach, you know, the, they, they, so they spend the, I look at it like this,

00:21:13.040 you know, it's, it's, it's 10, 10 to 12 weeks.

00:21:15.440 So let's say 12 weeks.

00:21:16.600 So they spend the first month, you know, breaking you down, uh, taking away your identity.

00:21:21.560 Uh, and then they spend the next four weeks teaching you about the history, about the

00:21:27.380 battles, about the men before you who, who had this title Marine and they build this sense

00:21:32.340 of pride, um, a pride about that and about what the Marine Corps truly is.

00:21:37.660 And then they spend the last four weeks teaching you how to live up and how to live with honor

00:21:42.440 and, and go out and represent and do that.

00:21:44.660 And so just a, such a, such an incredible process transformation.

00:21:48.220 I can't say that it definitely wasn't the hardest school that I've gone to, uh, while

00:21:52.580 I was in the Marine Corps, but it was by far the most transforming life-changing school that

00:21:57.720 I'd ever gone to, uh, as far as like changing up the whole dynamic of, of how you think about

00:22:02.920 how you see things.

00:22:04.400 Um, and obviously, you know, preparing you for war.

00:22:07.000 Hmm.

00:22:08.160 Well, that's how I felt when I did my two days becoming a Marine at Camp Lejeune for

00:22:12.860 TV.

00:22:14.320 Yeah.

00:22:15.200 Yeah.

00:22:15.740 I bet it was probably the same thing.

00:22:17.320 Totally identical.

00:22:19.080 I did not, however, get the tattoo in Latin on my chest.

00:22:22.460 Can you tell us what you, what you opted for and why you put it in Latin?

00:22:26.520 You know, so I get asked this a lot.

00:22:28.740 Um, the funny story is I went in and I just, I became a sniper and I wanted to get this.

00:22:34.240 I'd seen this tattoo somewhere, uh, I don't know where, and I was maybe 19 years old and

00:22:42.340 I went into this, I lived in Hawaii and I went to this, this tattoo parlor and I said,

00:22:46.900 Hey, I want to get this tattoo on my chest.

00:22:49.220 It says your death is my life in Latin or no, I didn't say in Latin.

00:22:53.520 I said English.

00:22:54.840 And, you know, thank God for the, the tattoo artist who looked at me and said, Hey man,

00:23:01.000 like I'll do whatever you want.

00:23:03.020 Cause you're paying for it.

00:23:04.360 But I really would not get it in English.

00:23:06.680 And, um, he said, he said, why don't you get it in Latin?

00:23:10.280 He's like, man, like, can you imagine?

00:23:12.620 He's like, you're walking across the beach with your kids one day and, uh, says your death

00:23:18.260 is my life across your chest.

00:23:20.420 And I was like, I mean, at that point I was like, I'm never having kids.

00:23:24.300 You kidding me?

00:23:24.860 You're like, that'll never happen.

00:23:27.240 And, um, yeah.

00:23:28.660 So I'm really thankful that I got that.

00:23:31.440 Yeah.

00:23:31.620 It's one thing if you're in Afghanistan, it's quite another, if you're in your personal life

00:23:35.320 without your Marine gear on, um, yeah.

00:23:37.900 So your death is my life, which actually is not a bad message when you're staring down the

00:23:42.200 Taliban.

00:23:43.100 So I like that.

00:23:44.060 Okay.

00:23:44.280 So, so there you go.

00:23:45.740 Um, and off you go, you went to Iraq and Iraq first, right?

00:23:50.040 And then Afghanistan after.

00:23:51.540 Yeah.

00:23:51.920 I went to Iraq first.

00:23:52.820 So I was in Fallujah, uh, you know, and I was part of the surge right in 2007.

00:23:58.540 Um, we, we surged all, you know, all the troops.

00:24:01.680 That was a rough time.

00:24:02.920 Yeah.

00:24:03.440 I mean, you know, look for us, like the Iraq deployment was pretty easy.

00:24:06.420 I mean, you know, we, we took some orders and stuff, maybe a little bit of small and fire,

00:24:10.840 but nothing like, it was not crazy at all in Iraq.

00:24:13.520 Um, and, you know, I was only there for maybe 45 days, 30 to 45 days, uh, due to, I got

00:24:23.640 bit on my, my right hand by a spider.

00:24:26.000 I had a nerve damage.

00:24:28.000 Like I was got, I had two surgeries in Fallujah surgical.

00:24:31.320 What?

00:24:32.420 Yeah.

00:24:33.260 Yeah.

00:24:33.500 Like I actually lost all the movement in my last three fingers.

00:24:38.740 Um, so yeah.

00:24:40.640 What kind of spider was that?

00:24:41.620 Can you just spend one second on that?

00:24:43.640 Cause now everybody's going to be freaked out about the next spider they encounter.

00:24:46.840 Yeah.

00:24:47.180 I mean, I don't know what kind of it was.

00:24:48.340 I mean, they said something like a desert recluse.

00:24:50.200 So I guess maybe it's a, I don't know, who knows?

00:24:52.640 It sounds made up, but, um, they, uh, they sent me back to, uh, to Germany and I was in,

00:24:59.000 you know, I was in Germany, like had to go to occupational therapy to get my, my hands, uh, moving

00:25:03.680 again.

00:25:03.880 And I honestly thought I was going to get med stepped out of the Marine Corps.

00:25:06.640 And, uh, I just worked on my hands, uh, the rest of the deployment being back home.

00:25:11.880 And, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I don't even remember it.

00:25:14.120 I was, we were actually in a, we were out in the house and I do remember the mission though,

00:25:19.160 because we had ran this mission to a place called banana town and we were going to go

00:25:22.660 out there for a couple of days and, uh, just trying to see, uh, there was, we knew there

00:25:28.500 was some enemy, some enemy, uh, that they've been, uh, freely moving out there.

00:25:33.160 And so we had gone out, set up in this house and it turned into a mess right off that we

00:25:38.960 only stayed there for a night because, um, so basically when we come in and we, we would

00:25:43.620 take all these houses, what we would do is we would sneak in and mill the night.

00:25:47.600 Right.

00:25:48.000 And so they, usually the families would sleep outside.

00:25:50.360 And so they'd be sleeping out on the ground somewhere.

00:25:52.900 So we'd find them.

00:25:53.900 We'd have like a couple of guys just over watching them, watching them as they sleep while

00:25:59.380 we went in and like, we'd search the house and we'd make sure we'd get eyes on the position

00:26:02.800 we wanted.

00:26:03.620 And then, uh, we'd wait until they woke up and then we'd bring them inside and they

00:26:08.100 had to sit with us until we left.

00:26:10.680 And so, uh, this night I remember, I don't know what caused it, but like, there's so many

00:26:15.980 dogs in Iraq and, uh, or Afghanistan, but there was just a ton of dogs.

00:26:21.440 And I remember the dogs barking so much that, um, that it woke the neighbors up.

00:26:30.520 And so once they seen us, we had to go grab them as well.

00:26:34.300 And so then it woke the other neighbors up and woke the other neighbors up and still

00:26:38.320 like 32 people, like almost the entire village inside of this one house with us, but we couldn't

00:26:45.720 let them go because we were afraid they'd go tell the, tell Al Qaeda or whoever that was

00:26:50.880 there, um, where we were at.

00:26:53.380 So we had to hold onto them until that night.

00:26:55.380 And then that night we just, we bailed out, but I got bit on my hand and, uh, got back to

00:27:01.220 base and like my hand was just swollen up.

00:27:03.620 It was huge.

00:27:04.400 I couldn't move my three fingers.

00:27:06.060 Um, they did a sniper in Fallujah, uh, gave me a few days to heal.

00:27:10.440 It didn't heal back, did another surgery.

00:27:12.620 And then they medivac'd me out, uh, back home to the States.

00:27:16.340 Yeah, that's, it's a problem.

00:27:17.340 If you're a sniper, you need your hands, you need your fingers and they need to be in good

00:27:21.160 working order.

00:27:22.160 Okay.

00:27:22.520 So you, you go, you get deployed again to Afghanistan and is it with the same unit, you know, the

00:27:27.780 guys who we would come to know through your story in, um, forgive me on the pronunciations

00:27:33.120 weird.

00:27:33.440 How do you pronounce the, the, the town?

00:27:35.180 Ganj?

00:27:36.220 Ganjigal.

00:27:37.300 Ganjigal.

00:27:37.860 Ganjigal.

00:27:38.480 Uh, is it the same unit that you were deployed with in Iraq?

00:27:42.180 No.

00:27:42.700 So like I was actually, so I came back, uh, went to mountain sniper school in between deployments

00:27:47.600 and I became a sniper team leader.

00:27:49.140 So I actually had my own team and we were getting ready to head back to Iraq again, like in the

00:27:53.020 2009 timeframe, but you know, there really wasn't much going on in Iraq at that point.

00:27:58.260 We didn't even have a mission.

00:27:59.580 And so I remember we were at 29 palms and my gunny comes and says, Hey, look, we need five

00:28:05.520 volunteers to go to Afghanistan.

00:28:06.980 And I said, what's the mission going to be?

00:28:08.920 And he said, well, I don't, I don't really, um, I don't really know, but like, we just

00:28:12.920 need five volunteers.

00:28:13.620 So you all can either start volunteering or I'm going to start picking.

00:28:17.100 And so I raised my hand, you know, I knew that was where the fight was.

00:28:19.900 I mean, that's what we've been hearing.

00:28:21.040 That's where we'd all hoped to gone.

00:28:23.140 And, um, I just thought it might be an opportunity to, to go get in a fight.

00:28:26.820 And, um, and you know, I was right, obviously.

00:28:31.480 And so ended up going and I detached from my sniper unit and I went and attached to what's

00:28:38.460 called an embedded training team.

00:28:39.880 And so the mindset behind these embedded training teams are that we go over and advise the, you

00:28:46.500 know, the local army, the Afghan national army on how to do everything from logistics to

00:28:52.220 weapons training, to basically train them on how to build their own military up.

00:28:58.180 You know, the, the, the theory is, is that if they can, we can train them up and they can

00:29:02.320 do it themselves.

00:29:03.220 And then they take care of their own country.

00:29:04.860 Right.

00:29:05.120 But we see how that ended up.

00:29:07.220 And, um, so that was our, our job.

00:29:11.000 And so I was going to, I was stationed on a base with four U S and 80 Afghans, um, on this

00:29:16.740 base and Afghanistan.

00:29:18.280 So let's talk a bit about the guys who are at the center of this story.

00:29:24.460 Um, in, in the book, you refer to Doc Layton, our Coorsman, and that's, that's Coorsman James

00:29:30.400 Layton.

00:29:31.360 Uh, that's, let's start with him.

00:29:33.400 How did you, how'd you get to know him?

00:29:35.100 What was he like?

00:29:36.280 You know, Doc, Doc Layton, um, you know, look, Corman, Corman are the angels of the Marine

00:29:43.020 Corps.

00:29:43.260 Um, I mean, the, these are the guys who literally put their life on the line.

00:29:49.000 Yeah.

00:29:49.140 They're Navy Corpsman and they, but, but they're, I mean, what, what docs do is, is second to

00:29:57.080 none, um, for Marines.

00:29:59.020 I mean, these guys take care of us.

00:30:00.660 They, they, they patch us up on the battlefield, you know, and they're right there with us,

00:30:04.460 right.

00:30:04.660 Their primary job is to, to, to, to patch us up, but like, you know, look, they're in the

00:30:09.340 fight with us.

00:30:10.000 And, um, you know, Doc Layton was such a, such a good guy, you know, he was from, he

00:30:16.040 was from, uh, he was from California and, uh, he, he just, he was from California.

00:30:23.840 He had this like surfer attitude, uh, this smile, the smirk he had it very like introvert,

00:30:30.080 but just had these one liners and, um, didn't say a lot, didn't really like, it was just

00:30:36.800 laid back.

00:30:37.340 Did not, did not care.

00:30:38.980 You couldn't bother her.

00:30:40.460 And, um, it just very laid back.

00:30:43.400 And he always, he always called me dude and had long hair and just, you know, just such

00:30:48.260 an incredible guy.

00:30:50.300 And then there was, uh, Sergeant Aaron Kennefic, uh, gunnery Sergeant Aaron Kennefic, a Kennefic,

00:30:56.860 a New Yorker.

00:30:58.020 Tell us about him.

00:30:58.940 Um, yeah.

00:31:00.140 So, you know, gunny, gunny Kennefic was like, uh, you know, look, I'm, I'm from Kentucky.

00:31:04.680 I mean, obviously even Rob O'Neill says, you know, I kind of talk slow and, um, you know,

00:31:09.960 I'm, I'm from Kentucky and like, we live life different than New York.

00:31:13.740 And, you know, so when I first met gunny Kennefic and he was the old man of the team,

00:31:17.900 I think he was like 30 at the time, which is crazy.

00:31:21.040 Um, but you know, he's an old man of the team.

00:31:23.900 He was a gunny.

00:31:24.840 He, uh, he had this, like, I called it the New York chip on his shoulder, you know, like,

00:31:28.560 uh, just, he had that, just that attitude.

00:31:30.800 Right.

00:31:31.260 And, uh, just a good guy, but he always had his, he always had his little sayings like,

00:31:35.420 you know, all right, all right, all right.

00:31:39.680 Or he was like, I mean, he just, I mean, Hey, I'll see you on the flip side.

00:31:43.260 And look, me and gunny didn't, when we first got there, like we didn't get along.

00:31:48.420 Like he couldn't stand that.

00:31:50.880 I mean, I, I was, I mean, I was a sniper.

00:31:54.420 Right.

00:31:54.800 And look, we're, we're known for, for not really caring much about how we look and looking

00:32:00.120 good and looking at heart.

00:32:01.400 We care about doing the job and, you know, both are important, but he was more on the,

00:32:05.440 what we call the flagpole side.

00:32:06.760 And I was more on the field side.

00:32:08.500 And, and, you know, he just, he, he didn't like it.

00:32:10.800 He didn't like how nasty I was, which, which, you know, I'm not saying he was wrong.

00:32:14.860 Um, but we butted heads a lot.

00:32:16.900 Like we butted heads a lot.

00:32:18.280 And, uh, you know, but, but, you know, we, it's kind of crazy how the, the relationship

00:32:24.260 progressed and how close we were, you know, right before he got killed.

00:32:29.200 Yeah.

00:32:29.720 And I know you say, uh, he's, he had movie star good looks.

00:32:33.580 He did.

00:32:35.100 You can see that in the pictures.

00:32:36.460 Yeah.

00:32:36.840 I mean, it was like, had sort of that, the broad shoulders and the, the, the good size

00:32:40.860 head and the jawline and yeah, all of that.

00:32:43.960 So, uh, you were, you were ultimately in a good place together, which you write about

00:32:48.400 and having a couple of close calls that work to your advantage.

00:32:51.540 Um, Sergeant Edwin Johnson, tell us about Edwin.

00:32:56.120 So, you know, Gunny Johnson, uh, Gunny Johnson.

00:32:59.480 So he was on, so we were part of a 21 man team and they split that up into, you know, teams

00:33:05.000 that are throughout the area of operations that we were part of.

00:33:08.580 And that's why I broke down into a four man team with Kennefic and them.

00:33:11.880 And so Gunny Johnson's actually the, the, the person who replaced me that day on the mission.

00:33:18.460 Uh, Gunny Johnson, such an incredible guy.

00:33:20.420 Like he loved CrossFit, uh, he was always working out just, just a jacked up guy.

00:33:25.760 He had like the softest voice.

00:33:27.460 Like if you've seen him, like, you're like, Oh yeah, this guy's got deep voice, but like

00:33:31.140 he just is huge guy at the soft voice and just such a loving, caring guy.

00:33:35.900 And, uh, you know, it was definitely a guy that took care of Marines and just really,

00:33:40.520 really nice guy.

00:33:41.800 And this, and is he the one who's from Virginia?

00:33:44.200 You said he was from Virginia by birth, but was now Mr. Oregon.

00:33:48.400 No, no, this is, so this, that's, so there was two Johnson, Lieutenant Johnson.

00:33:52.320 So Lieutenant Johnson, the next one.

00:33:54.380 Okay.

00:33:54.700 Yeah.

00:33:54.920 So Lieutenant Johnson was Lieutenant Michael Johnson.

00:33:57.580 Uh, and he's the guy in your book, you write about how he was in tremendous shape and

00:34:02.260 at sunset would muster us out for a hundred pushups, a hundred, 200 sit-ups and 10 laps around

00:34:06.400 the perimeter, which made me think avoid, this is me avoid, avoid Lieutenant Michael Johnson

00:34:12.040 at all costs if it's sunset.

00:34:14.800 Yeah.

00:34:15.240 He, he loved, he loved CrossFit too.

00:34:17.740 Right.

00:34:18.220 Uh, just such a laid back guy.

00:34:20.400 Uh, we were definitely opposites, right?

00:34:22.480 I mean, I was wound tight.

00:34:23.800 I still probably am a little bit.

00:34:25.520 And, uh, you know, uh, Lieutenant Johnson was just, you know, like an example of him was

00:34:32.500 that we would be going on these, these missions and, you know, Afghanistan, where we were at

00:34:37.260 Northeastern Afghanistan is very, very hilly.

00:34:39.780 Um, it's very, you know, the terrain is just incredible.

00:34:44.400 And so we would be going and, uh, he'd be like, Mar, Mar, like, don't, don't you just

00:34:50.220 love like the views?

00:34:51.800 Right.

00:34:52.120 And I, and I was like, I was always, I was in the front and I was like, ah, well, you

00:34:55.500 know, sir, uh, I, I, I'm not really looking at the views.

00:34:58.540 I'm trying to make sure we don't get blown up.

00:34:59.940 And, uh, you know, just, it was just always how laid back and positive he was.

00:35:04.420 And just, you know, he was just every, every patrol for, for Lieutenant Johnson was for

00:35:10.060 sure.

00:35:10.360 A nature high.

00:35:11.400 Wow.

00:35:12.020 And well, look, he's appreciating the sunset.

00:35:13.880 He's from Oregon.

00:35:14.800 You know, the Pacific Northwest is sort of like that.

00:35:16.800 It's beautiful.

00:35:17.380 They appreciate the beauty.

00:35:18.480 It's, it's nice to get to know these guys a little, you know, it's like you hear these

00:35:22.180 news stories and you just hear about the awful end and it's so much, just a, such a better

00:35:27.860 experience for everyone.

00:35:29.120 And I'm sure, including their loved ones, if you can just get to know these guys a little

00:35:32.840 bit and, and figure out what made all of you so close, what made all of you click, what,

00:35:39.140 what made it such a special unit?

00:35:42.140 Um, September 8, 2009.

00:35:44.320 Okay.

00:35:44.920 So you are told a Tuesday, you are told that there's been some progress in meeting with,

00:35:52.240 I guess, tribal leaders there and that we're going to send some guys back in to go try to

00:35:58.020 have some talks and, and we decide, I guess the, we, the Americans decide to send some

00:36:03.960 of our, our Afghan representatives, our Afghan friends to go in there.

00:36:07.320 And, and were you guys going, especially these four to protect them?

00:36:12.840 You know, like, so it's all about the optics of it, right?

00:36:16.380 Part of the strategy was trying to build the confidence in the Afghan national army, right?

00:36:20.560 Obviously supported by us.

00:36:22.340 Right.

00:36:22.860 Um, so that, that's kind of the optics of it, right?

00:36:25.240 Like, uh, you know, the, the, that piece.

00:36:28.920 And so, you know, what had happened was, is there'd been some tiff and I wasn't even aware

00:36:34.200 of this.

00:36:34.620 I mean, we get rocketed all the time, you know, bombed all the time.

00:36:37.060 And plus this was another base.

00:36:38.940 Um, so we weren't even aware of it, but I guess like somebody had gotten killed and,

00:36:43.040 and long story short, the, the Ganjigal people had said that they wanted to renounce themselves

00:36:48.780 from the Taliban.

00:36:50.120 And so this is huge, right?

00:36:53.540 I mean, look, in theory, again, I like to say in theory, I say it a lot, but like in

00:36:57.660 theory, you know, the, if they renounce themselves from the Taliban, it stops the freedom of movement

00:37:02.840 from the Taliban.

00:37:04.440 They start supporting the government.

00:37:06.020 You know, these are, this is, this is, you know, a textbook of how you, how it shouldn't

00:37:11.660 play out.

00:37:12.240 Um, so what we were doing that day is, is the, the, we were going to go in and we were

00:37:18.760 just having a, literally a town meeting that we do all the time.

00:37:21.800 We have meetings with our locals all the time.

00:37:24.080 And we were going to go in and have a town meeting and, and, uh, just go in there and

00:37:28.460 see how we could support them.

00:37:29.760 They said they needed support.

00:37:30.820 They would renounce themselves from the Taliban as long as we could provide some security.

00:37:34.320 They, I'm sure they want, who knows what they want, right?

00:37:36.640 Like by a school, some roads or whatever.

00:37:39.140 Right.

00:37:39.540 And so they just needed some support for the government and they would start supporting

00:37:42.940 the government.

00:37:43.720 And so that was kind of what our mission was that day.

00:37:51.920 Okay.

00:37:52.440 So you go and you were supposed to be one of the leading four guys, as you point out, uh,

00:37:57.740 instead, Sergeant Aaron Kennefic, I'm sorry, Korsman.

00:38:00.220 Yeah.

00:38:00.840 Sergeant Edwin Johnson went, uh, in your stead.

00:38:04.160 You were low man on the totem pole.

00:38:05.720 So why did that happen?

00:38:06.600 Why did he replace you?

00:38:07.900 Um, you know, like, uh, so I'll say on this patrol is the only infantryman.

00:38:12.400 So let me, let me, let me start with that.

00:38:14.320 Right.

00:38:14.660 And nothing against it, but I mean, this is, this was part of what we did for a living.

00:38:19.340 Right.

00:38:19.920 Um, and so going in, you know, I, I listened to the mission briefs at night before.

00:38:26.080 And part of the brief was that, that there was a few pieces of it that I didn't agree

00:38:32.780 with.

00:38:33.120 And, and, you know, one of them being that, that we were going to be on, everybody was

00:38:36.780 going to be on one, uh, one radio channel.

00:38:39.740 Right.

00:38:40.140 And, and, and I'm going to say these because I think that, you know, I think it's important

00:38:43.920 that these are kind of simple.

00:38:45.320 I'm not trying to change up the wheel, but, or, you know, reinvent the wheel, but you

00:38:49.560 know, there, there was going to be over.

00:38:51.200 And if I count up just off the top of my head, four or five, six, I mean, at least six or

00:38:55.220 seven different moving elements on one radio channel.

00:38:58.920 Right.

00:38:59.300 Imagine having six or seven different people on, on a phone call.

00:39:02.740 Right.

00:39:03.000 I think we all know how that goes.

00:39:04.560 And then, um, I had, I said, that wasn't a good idea.

00:39:09.080 And then I said, uh, another aspect was I wanted to bring the trucks in.

00:39:12.980 Right.

00:39:13.400 So like when they walked in, they wanted to walk in, which to show a softer presence,

00:39:19.000 but they also gave me the excuse that they wanted to go in clandestine, but you can't do

00:39:24.380 that with 90 people.

00:39:26.360 Um, which was, it was a dumb comment anyways.

00:39:29.140 And so for me, like, I thought it made sense to bring the trucks in behind the team.

00:39:35.300 So that way, if, if, you know, if, if they got set up then, or not set up, but if they

00:39:41.320 took contact or got into a gunfight, then we would have our biggest guns in the fight.

00:39:45.080 Right.

00:39:45.360 And there would be armor there and, you know, it'd be, it would just provide more reinforcements

00:39:49.680 that we already had.

00:39:50.600 We didn't want to do that either.

00:39:51.940 And then, uh, the other aspect of it was, was the, was the air.

00:39:55.320 And like, you know, we didn't, we didn't have air direct, uh, which, which happens sometimes

00:39:59.060 it's, but, but I just didn't think that it was a smart idea to go in here without air

00:40:03.420 direct in a, in a place that we knew we were going to take contact at.

00:40:06.460 We had never, uh, I think the other teams had gone in there once or twice before and every

00:40:10.300 time they get shot at.

00:40:11.220 Right.

00:40:11.720 And so because of these factors, um, they end up just taking me out of the team.

00:40:19.980 Uh, did you have to stay back at base then?

00:40:23.180 No.

00:40:23.580 So like my job was going to be that when we drove in, they left me at the trucks.

00:40:29.240 Right.

00:40:29.660 So you're off campus, you're not, you're not back at base, but you're off campus and you're

00:40:33.920 not in the middle of the action.

00:40:35.100 I'm kind of probably a mile away.

00:40:37.400 Okay.

00:40:38.200 And how many of you are there in your spot?

00:40:41.500 Uh, there was three of us.

00:40:43.280 Okay.

00:40:43.940 But the commanding officers, they're back at the base.

00:40:47.560 Yeah.

00:40:48.620 No.

00:40:49.000 Well, yeah.

00:40:49.320 So the commanding officers, yeah, we're back at the base.

00:40:51.140 We, I mean, we had our, we had a major and our first sergeant with us, our team, our

00:40:55.340 team leaders.

00:40:56.160 Uh, they were there, but like the whole team, uh, team CEO, CEO or whatever.

00:41:01.000 So they were with us, but as far as like the army, so we, we were supported because in

00:41:05.320 this area, this was the army's area of operation.

00:41:07.440 So everything we did as far as our, I mean, everything was supported from the army as far

00:41:12.100 as air, as far as artillery, uh, as far as even quick reaction force was supplied by

00:41:17.440 the army.

00:41:18.060 So we relied on them a lot.

00:41:19.560 And, um, yeah, so all these, the, but, but the top, top commanding officers were for sure

00:41:24.760 sitting on base.

00:41:26.320 So you're sitting there and you're, you gotta be a little nervous because obviously just

00:41:30.200 given the circumstances.

00:41:30.940 And then I know somebody, uh, kept saying bad people looking into the city and, and where

00:41:37.080 these guys were going, bad place, bad people.

00:41:39.640 It's low ground, uh, which is, as you explain, not where you want to be.

00:41:44.040 If you're in the military, you always want to be up on the higher ground so you can see

00:41:46.900 everything and not the lower ground, God forbid somebody hits you, you can be seen very easily.

00:41:52.900 And yet this is, this is what was arranged and this is what was asked of you and they,

00:41:56.420 and off they go.

00:41:57.360 And so how long are you waiting before you realize it's an ambush?

00:42:02.140 Oh, I'll never forget select that morning going in.

00:42:06.160 Um, you know, so we drove in and I was in the, the, the turret up gun, uh, gunny.

00:42:11.300 Just explain that.

00:42:12.080 Sorry, Dakota.

00:42:12.720 Just explain what that is for our audience.

00:42:14.620 Yeah.

00:42:14.820 So, so I was in the turret.

00:42:16.080 So like basically the, uh, the armored, the gun that's on top of the, the Humvee.

00:42:20.620 Right.

00:42:20.840 So I was, I was up there.

00:42:21.860 I was, I was manning that position, uh, on the way in.

00:42:25.060 And then, uh, gunny Kenefick was driving.

00:42:28.000 Lieutenant Johnson was in the passenger seat.

00:42:30.460 Uh, doc Layton was in the back seat.

00:42:32.060 And then our interpreter Fazel was in the other back seat.

00:42:35.500 And, you know, like, obviously this is hindsight 2020, right.

00:42:38.720 But like driving in, I remember that morning, we didn't even talk about the mission.

00:42:42.480 You know, usually on a mission like this, we're talking about checkpoints.

00:42:45.120 We're talking about plans and we didn't even mention it.

00:42:47.920 All we talked about on the way in that morning was, um, was home.

00:42:52.100 Um, and, uh, all we talked about was like how, whose house we were going to first and,

00:42:58.160 and, uh, how we were going to hang out and kind of, I don't know, we laid out this whole

00:43:03.180 elaborate life plan of how we were going to find a way to still be together and hang out.

00:43:08.580 And, um, I look back at it and it's like, you know, that's what we do when we're scared.

00:43:13.380 Right.

00:43:13.760 You know, a lot of people look at, at, at service members or military as crude or as, as,

00:43:19.440 as, you know, heartless.

00:43:22.100 But when you, you know, in these team situations, especially small team situations that are so

00:43:28.420 critical, part of getting through them is, is, is having the ultimate poker face, right?

00:43:35.120 Like you can't, you know, these guys might be looking at you wondering, Hey, should I

00:43:39.880 be scared or not?

00:43:40.600 And you don't want to ever, you know, um, you don't ever want to show you're scared because

00:43:46.020 it might be what breaks or makes that team.

00:43:48.900 And so having confidence and being able to control those emotions and staying stoic in

00:43:54.240 these situations is what has to happen.

00:43:56.160 And so a lot of times what we do is we just have conversations about stuff that don't even,

00:43:59.280 you know, kind of try to ignore it.

00:44:00.940 Right.

00:44:01.180 Um, and, uh, you know, that whole way in it, you could just tell that everybody was scared.

00:44:06.020 Everybody knew what was about to happen, uh, that it was not going to be good.

00:44:09.500 And so we got in and parked that, that morning and it was still pitch black.

00:44:14.160 And I remember we parked and he shut the, Kenefit shut the truck off and Lieutenant Johnson,

00:44:19.240 I told Lieutenant Johnson, I said, Hey, look, if anything goes bad, just get to the road and

00:44:25.040 I'll come get you.

00:44:27.500 And, uh, you know, like, so that was the plan.

00:44:31.180 And, and, and Kenefit said, you know, or not Kenefit, but John, Lieutenant Johnson said,

00:44:35.060 he goes, Meyer, you know what?

00:44:36.280 Like, that's what we're going to do.

00:44:37.860 And he goes, I know you're crazy enough to come get us.

00:44:41.220 And, um, I'll never forget.

00:44:43.580 Kenefit got out and it was pitch black and he started walking and, uh, he said, uh, Meyer,

00:44:49.640 I'll, I'll see you on the flip side.

00:44:51.100 And, uh, you know, they all walked off into the dark and, and it, it was probably, you

00:44:58.020 know, the, as they were going in, there were goat herders passing us, right?

00:45:03.520 Like there were the elders, a lot of the elders were passing us and, and like, I would get

00:45:08.560 off the truck.

00:45:09.220 I got on the hood of the truck and I would go down and I'd try to shake their hands and

00:45:12.180 stuff, you know, just to try to have a conversation.

00:45:14.480 You can tell a lot about how people view you by just a conversation.

00:45:18.720 Right.

00:45:18.940 And, um, a lot of these people wouldn't even talk to us.

00:45:22.060 Like they just look at us now.

00:45:23.340 I'll never forget.

00:45:23.980 They were, they were taking their, their rosary beads or whatever it was.

00:45:27.940 And they were just like holding them and holding on.

00:45:30.540 And it was just a, you just had this eerie feeling and like women and kids were just

00:45:35.140 leaving like masses.

00:45:37.820 And, uh, you know, we knew that there was going to be a fight, right?

00:45:41.520 They're not just leaving because, you know, it's not a coincidence.

00:45:44.880 And so, uh, but let me stop you there.

00:45:46.840 How did you, I mean, like I see these are signs that there's going to be a fight, but

00:45:50.460 we didn't actually know.

00:45:51.440 Cause it, we were caught by surprise.

00:45:53.060 That was part of the problem.

00:45:53.860 Right.

00:45:54.120 So what do you explain that?

00:45:55.340 What do you mean?

00:45:56.440 Well, I mean, look, I mean, this is, this is the, I'm saying like all these signs are,

00:46:00.520 are stuff we've seen before.

00:46:01.740 Right.

00:46:02.020 Like, so these guys have gone in, they've left you, they're going in and you're seeing

00:46:06.200 these signs and you're thinking, I have a bad feeling.

00:46:09.140 Oh yeah.

00:46:10.340 Yeah.

00:46:10.580 I mean, and I, I, you know, but before, even before this aspect of it, I took my thermals,

00:46:16.360 like, you know, it's a heat seeking device, right?

00:46:18.420 It seeks heat.

00:46:19.320 It sees heat, uh, or senses heat.

00:46:21.940 And I could see people running up the edges of the mountains and, uh, you know, look,

00:46:27.600 they weren't going out to get their, their morning, you know, their, their morning run

00:46:31.180 in.

00:46:31.400 And so, you know, all of these are signs that, that, that, that they're going up to their

00:46:35.800 fighting positions.

00:46:36.460 Right.

00:46:36.840 And, and I tried to call over the radio and said, Hey, we got guys going up the side of

00:46:40.620 the mountains.

00:46:41.000 And I was told to get off the radio.

00:46:42.420 You're tying up the net.

00:46:43.440 Right.

00:46:43.940 It's like a, like a, it was like a push on me of like, Hey, you brought up that this is going

00:46:49.500 to be an issue.

00:46:50.080 And now you're the one tying the net up.

00:46:51.820 And, and, and it was just like, so ignoring all the signs, uh, so complacent is what it

00:46:57.820 was.

00:46:58.640 And, um, you know, my team was at the front of the patrol on this, this 90 man patrol,

00:47:04.020 right.

00:47:04.340 You know, you're, you're kind of walking in, I don't want to say like follow the leader,

00:47:07.480 but it is kind of like follow the leader.

00:47:08.860 Right.

00:47:09.400 And, um, you know, my team and my Afghans were up front of this patrol as they had, um,

00:47:15.840 everybody else was dispersed out to the back.

00:47:17.580 And, uh, you know, as soon as they got in there, I mean, it was, it was just like all

00:47:24.500 the lights in the village flipped off at the same time.

00:47:27.800 And then it was just a fight.

00:47:29.400 Like it was just a fight.

00:47:31.380 Oh my God.

00:47:32.800 I can't imagine the feeling that goes through your body at that moment that you realize

00:47:37.540 this whole thing has been a setup.

00:47:39.520 You're on the outside.

00:47:40.840 These guys in your unit are in the inside and you must feel powerless in the moment or

00:47:46.660 in a, something close to panic to get in there.

00:47:51.660 You, you, you explain it.

00:47:53.380 How, what, what is that feeling when you realize it, the whole thing's an ambush?

00:47:56.840 Well, I think, I think in the beginning when this thing hit off, I mean, look, we've been

00:48:01.220 in, we'd been in quite a few gunfights at this point.

00:48:03.660 Right.

00:48:03.920 Like in the beginning of it, like it's always chaotic.

00:48:06.680 I mean, it's just, you know, you're trying to figure out where they're at, you know, and

00:48:12.640 you're trying to do all this while you're getting shot at.

00:48:14.220 So like they're trying to, you know, where they're at, where you're at, what do we have

00:48:18.080 to help with this?

00:48:18.920 And then you just, you know, you start fighting.

00:48:21.440 Um, and so for me, I would say in the beginning, I wasn't worried about my team.

00:48:30.100 Honestly, at the beginning, I was just pissed off that I wasn't involved in the fight.

00:48:34.760 Right.

00:48:35.160 Like I was just mad that, that I wasn't, that they were getting some and I wasn't, you

00:48:40.040 know what I mean?

00:48:40.420 Like that was, that was probably the first reason I was mad.

00:48:45.880 Um, and yeah, obviously I was eager to get in there.

00:48:49.600 I was, I wanted to go fight.

00:48:50.680 I wanted to go get some, you know, like I, I was mad.

00:48:53.320 My team was gonna, was gonna, you know, get some and I wasn't.

00:48:56.800 And, uh, and then like, after I started listening to the radio traffic, then it got real.

00:49:05.940 Uh, I think it was at the point that I heard Lieutenant Johnson come over the radio and

00:49:12.840 he stated that, uh, that he needed to support artillery mission.

00:49:17.740 And basically he gave this, it's a grid location or no, not a grid location.

00:49:21.800 He gave a, a polar mission, which is basically you say where you're at, you give your location,

00:49:26.900 then you give the distance and direction of where you want these rounds at.

00:49:30.620 And then they, they, they, they sling rounds on that, that location.

00:49:34.780 Right.

00:49:35.280 And so he gave this perfect format and, uh, on their forget, they said, uh, the, the rounds

00:49:46.040 are too close to the village.

00:49:48.600 And he said, uh, the village is shooting at us.

00:49:52.320 Like I need these rounds.

00:49:53.740 And he, what he was trying to do is he was trying to place these rounds between him and

00:49:57.560 the village, kind of building a wall.

00:49:59.260 You know what I mean?

00:49:59.720 Like trying to give him some, some, uh, relief to be able to, to, to disperse back and get

00:50:05.480 out of there.

00:50:06.440 And, uh, I'll never forget.

00:50:09.040 He said, uh, they said, no, it's too close to the village.

00:50:11.920 Give us another location.

00:50:13.220 He said, if you don't give me these rounds right now, we are going to die.

00:50:18.680 And, uh, the response he got back was, we'll try your best.

00:50:21.500 And so at that point, I knew that we had to do something.

00:50:32.840 Um, I looked at Rodriguez Chavez, who was just such an incredible human being.

00:50:37.400 Uh, he was a motor T guy.

00:50:39.660 And I said, Hey, I said, Hey Rod, like, like we got to go in.

00:50:43.300 And so I requested four times, three or four times over the radio, uh, to go in.

00:50:48.300 And, and my idea was, Hey, I'm going to bring this gun truck in.

00:50:51.720 And each time I was told no.

00:50:53.040 And so finally I, uh, so finally I, I just said like, let's go.

00:51:00.840 Well, let me just back you up.

00:51:01.640 Let me back you up there.

00:51:02.460 So you say, we got to get in there and you can hear these guys on the radio saying, send

00:51:06.360 us, send us support.

00:51:07.300 Uh, we need our artillery support and they needed a helicopter support and, and the helicopter

00:51:12.460 support was promised and then not delivered.

00:51:14.960 They said, we'll be there in 15 minutes and, and they didn't send it.

00:51:19.160 And that was overruled as I understand it back at the home base.

00:51:22.700 And then they said, and these guys were, these guys are insider.

00:51:25.760 And I mean, 15 minutes has got to be an eternity when you're in their position and it happened

00:51:30.260 repeatedly.

00:51:31.600 Yeah.

00:51:32.000 I mean, it was over, I mean, it was well over an hour before helicopters showed up.

00:51:37.420 And that was by design.

00:51:38.840 I mean, that's, what's so crazy about the story and there will be discipline that results

00:51:42.120 from all of this later, but there, there had been two, as I understand it, commanding officers

00:51:47.900 back at the base, making the decision not to send it that like they, they told the guys

00:51:51.440 on the inside, they'd be there in 15 minutes.

00:51:53.160 And then they chose not to send it.

00:51:55.420 Yeah.

00:51:55.680 So what happened was, and so on that aspect of it, I mean, so part of my thing was, my

00:52:01.560 problem was, is they kept saying, well, so the team went in, the overall team went

00:52:07.520 in with this, you know, with this false assumption that it would be there in 15 minutes.

00:52:11.980 So I do remember that, that in the mission, it was supposed to be on 15 minutes trip alert,

00:52:16.740 right?

00:52:17.220 And so let me explain what that means.

00:52:18.660 So all that means is, is that the, the, the helicopter must take off within 15 minutes.

00:52:24.340 And that's from Jalalabad.

00:52:25.900 Jalalabad was probably a 35, 40 minute flight.

00:52:28.300 I don't know exactly, but 35, 40 minute flight on top of that.

00:52:31.800 And then the other aspect of it is, is there's priorities inside of, you know, of who gets

00:52:36.960 air and who doesn't, right?

00:52:38.600 And so, you know, like if, and what happened that day was it's like a perfect storm still,

00:52:42.940 you know, one of the SEAL teams got into a gunfight up in the Cornwall Valley, they were

00:52:46.760 going after an HVT.

00:52:48.180 And so they obviously rated aircraft above us.

00:52:52.100 And so part of that was justified.

00:52:55.320 The other part of it that wasn't justified was there was an aspect of it where they air did

00:53:01.640 break loose and was able to come help us.

00:53:04.220 But then, yeah, somebody else shut it down.

00:53:07.940 So at least one of those was a conscious decision not to send the helicopter support.

00:53:12.520 Yes.

00:53:13.640 Not to prioritize somebody else, but just not to send it.

00:53:16.340 And what, what was the stated reason for that?

00:53:18.180 Cause you're living this on the outside, like you're watching this happen.

00:53:20.700 What was the stated reason for that?

00:53:24.180 I mean, we, we, we didn't have one.

00:53:26.260 I mean, no, nobody gave us one.

00:53:28.020 I mean, honestly, it comes down to the egos between the Marines and the, and the, and

00:53:31.480 the Army.

00:53:32.560 And, and, and I can give you a statement in a minute that was said over the radio that

00:53:36.140 proves that.

00:53:36.980 But yeah, I mean, it was just, it was clear, egotistical, typical non-communication between

00:53:42.820 two, two, you know, two units.

00:53:47.520 I mean, this is, this is, you know, this is what happens when, you know, these two don't

00:53:54.020 communicate on the battlefield and it happens a lot.

00:53:57.560 Hmm.

00:53:59.040 Uh, you, you like to think there's no team rivalry when, when you're out there, you like

00:54:02.960 to think it's all about team America versus team Taliban.

00:54:05.920 I guess, you know, that's, that's naive.

00:54:08.780 The, the, um, request for artillery support was, was also not met.

00:54:15.200 As you said, they said you're too close to the village.

00:54:17.160 Meanwhile, the village is gone.

00:54:19.080 The village ran and the Taliban has taken over the homes of the village.

00:54:22.660 Right.

00:54:22.880 I mean, it's like what village?

00:54:24.700 Yeah.

00:54:24.880 Well, so, so let me tell you where this problem came in.

00:54:27.160 Right.

00:54:27.500 Uh, so this was a rule of engagement that Stan McChrystal put in place.

00:54:31.400 Um, you know, Stan McChrystal put into place.

00:54:33.680 Uh, it was a, again, I don't know verbatim, but about 30 to 45 days before this incident,

00:54:39.360 uh, there was a rule of engagement that was in place that stated, I can't remember the exact

00:54:44.160 numbers or perimeter of how far you could not drop artillery, uh, within a village.

00:54:49.280 Uh, and, and, and it stated that you couldn't drop the rounds or munitions within the X amount

00:54:54.780 of radius of the village unless now get this, unless you had gone through the village and

00:55:01.260 cleared it to make sure that there were no civilians and only enemy combatants.

00:55:05.540 Oh, how are you supposed to, it's like, that's not exactly practicable in a situation like this.

00:55:11.640 That's the problem, right?

00:55:12.840 When you have commanding officers or generals writing these rules in a rule book, and then

00:55:17.340 you guys are left to live it and be forced to live it.

00:55:21.580 Even when you can look at the situation and say that rule should not apply here.

00:55:25.500 Yeah.

00:55:25.600 That's why, I mean, frankly, Dakota, that's why you have commanding officers because they're

00:55:29.520 not monkeys.

00:55:30.200 We need thinking men out there to say, I'm not following that rule right now because the

00:55:37.180 village has left.

00:55:38.540 They've left the building.

00:55:39.200 Well, this is the problem, right?

00:55:42.240 Rule followers are, are, are leaders, are, are, are made leaders over competent people,

00:55:47.360 right?

00:55:47.920 Competent people challenge policies and rules written by people who shouldn't be writing

00:55:53.760 rules and policies.

00:55:55.620 Uh, but, but rule followers don't rule followers follow the rules and therefore they, you know,

00:56:01.920 that, that is what, that is what we look for, or that is what, that is what leadership

00:56:06.460 is, uh, that, you know, because they, they get rid of people who are competent and people

00:56:11.940 who challenge and make people have to think outside the box of what rules and regulations

00:56:17.380 are.

00:56:18.940 So incredibly frustrating.

00:56:20.800 So you're watching all of this, the delays, the refusals, the blind adherence to rules that

00:56:26.580 make no sense given the actual combat situation.

00:56:28.820 And then you say, let me go in there.

00:56:31.840 I mean, it's basically a send me in coach and the answer is no.

00:56:35.380 Yeah.

00:56:35.800 So we asked to go in and we're, we're told no.

00:56:38.300 And so I had a Mark 19, which is a 40 millimeter grenade launcher, uh, on my up gun.

00:56:43.340 And then I also had a two 40 machine gun.

00:56:45.080 There's just a, another, just a gun.

00:56:46.920 Right.

00:56:47.100 And so finally I looked at Rod and Rodriguez Chavez and said, Hey, look, we got to go.

00:56:52.520 We got to do something.

00:56:54.480 Um, and, uh, he's like, yeah, we do.

00:56:58.320 And so I got my Afghan soldiers, they jumped in their trucks and we just headed in.

00:57:02.660 And like, as soon as we started heading in, we started taking rounds.

00:57:05.560 I mean, we started, but wait, wait, but wait, before you, you, you, you're like kind of jumping

00:57:11.420 over the part that's, this is important because you were told no.

00:57:14.540 And then you asked again, I mean, you did try to follow the rule.

00:57:18.060 I did.

00:57:18.640 Yeah.

00:57:18.740 I requested three or four times.

00:57:20.560 Yeah.

00:57:20.760 You were told no, you asked a third time and you were told no.

00:57:23.720 And then it was really at that point that you said, I'm not listening to no anymore.

00:57:27.800 I'm going.

00:57:29.320 Yeah.

00:57:29.440 I mean, I think, I think the last call that I said over the radio was be advised.

00:57:33.080 I mean, my, uh, my call sign was Fox three, three.

00:57:36.120 So I said, be advised.

00:57:37.080 Fox three, three is, uh, we were on our way in and, uh, that was it.

00:57:43.040 But, and so we had, from the guys who were telling, you know, were they like, get back

00:57:47.420 here, Fox three, three.

00:57:48.300 Like what happened there?

00:57:50.200 I don't, I didn't listen.

00:57:51.500 I just set my radio down.

00:57:53.040 That was irrelevant at that point.

00:57:54.480 So in you go.

00:57:56.040 And this is not, it's still a fighting's underway.

00:57:59.080 Oh, I mean, yeah.

00:57:59.900 I mean, my, my teammate, I could hear, I could hear my, uh, I heard on, as soon as we left,

00:58:05.600 I heard, uh, Gunny, Gunny Kennefic come over the radio and he stated that they needed a

00:58:13.720 medical evacuation.

00:58:15.380 And so look, that obviously tells you somebody has been injured.

00:58:19.500 And, uh, so I knew, so I always kept a Sharpie in my, in my gear.

00:58:24.780 Right.

00:58:24.980 So like, I always kept a Sharpie in case I needed to write something or, or whatever.

00:58:27.980 Right.

00:58:28.640 And, uh, I pulled that out because I knew that if, if I could get, I knew with this medevac

00:58:34.320 that he would have to give a 10 digit grid.

00:58:38.200 And so I knew if I could get that grid, I could put it on a map and then I could figure

00:58:41.700 out where they were.

00:58:43.380 And, uh, you know, everybody was stepping on him.

00:58:47.040 I mean, there's tons of chaos.

00:58:48.220 You got people trying to call in artillery.

00:58:49.800 You got people needing help.

00:58:51.040 People trying to talk where they're at all this chaos.

00:58:53.780 And he's finally, Kennefic said, get off the radio.

00:58:56.640 I've got a medevac.

00:58:57.580 And so everybody shut off and he started to give the location and stopped.

00:59:04.160 So we headed on in and we took the truck on into this valley.

00:59:08.620 And so as we come around this valley, it's like a, it was like a wash, right?

00:59:14.060 It was like a, a riverbed that led up to, up to this village.

00:59:19.080 And as we come around this turn, they had stacked these rocks.

00:59:22.940 They tried to make these rocks, put these rocks on the road to where a Humvee couldn't

00:59:27.240 fit through it, right?

00:59:28.500 Like they, they tried to use these as like barriers.

00:59:31.400 And, uh, Rodriguez Chavez, I'll never forget.

00:59:33.680 He was hitting these rocks.

00:59:34.980 And I knew that if he ever slowed down or stopped, that we were sitting ducks, like they would

00:59:40.700 overrun us in no time.

00:59:42.480 So it was a pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty nerve wracking situation.

00:59:46.680 And so as we came around, went in and, uh, as soon as we turned right up this, this, this,

00:59:54.180 this, uh, riverbed.

00:59:56.020 And like I said, on the, on the way in, there were all these people walking out and they were

01:00:01.760 just wounded.

01:00:02.340 I mean, they were carrying each other.

01:00:04.880 It was during Ramadan as well.

01:00:06.720 So none of them had been eating or drinking water during the day because of Ramadan.

01:00:12.660 And so it was just like, it's a perfect combination.

01:00:14.800 It's, it's, it's crazy hot.

01:00:16.880 Um, and all these people are wounded and just like mangled and like, I didn't know what I

01:00:24.240 was driving into.

01:00:25.100 And so as we turn up this valley or we turn up this, this riverbed, it was just like there

01:00:30.860 were bodies everywhere.

01:00:32.340 It was just complete chaos.

01:00:34.380 Hmm.

01:00:35.760 So you come into it and there's, they're shooting at you and you're manning, as I understand

01:00:40.440 the turret and, and fighting back with the, with the gun, fighting back at the, at the

01:00:44.380 fire as it comes at you.

01:00:45.700 And what's your main focus at that point?

01:00:48.600 Honestly, all I could think about was finding my teammates.

01:00:52.900 Like, like literally as much as I want to say that I cared about saving anybody else.

01:00:57.200 Like I, I didn't like, I just, I had to find them.

01:01:00.660 Like I just, all I could think about was I needed to find them.

01:01:03.340 I promised them that, that, that I would find them, that I would get to them.

01:01:07.280 And I truly thought that, Hey, they're going to get to the road.

01:01:10.160 They're waiting on me.

01:01:11.100 I just need to get this truck up the road as far as I can.

01:01:13.460 And, um, and I'm going to get them out.

01:01:19.480 And, uh, that was, that was my, that was my thought pattern.

01:01:24.940 And I, you know, on the first trip in, like literally these people are trying to jump on

01:01:32.980 the truck.

01:01:33.780 Like, I, I mean, I would like my, my gun, like, you know, on top of the truck, I'm sure

01:01:38.760 you can imagine, but like, you know, you can only push it down so far, right.

01:01:42.220 Cause it'll hit the side of the truck.

01:01:44.040 And, uh, and, and these guys were so close that my gun wouldn't even, I couldn't even

01:01:48.580 shoot them.

01:01:49.180 And so I would have to pull up out of the turret and I would just, I would shoot them

01:01:52.540 with my M4 out of, out of the top of the turret.

01:01:55.900 And, uh, the rounds were literally, it sounded like static over my head.

01:02:00.120 Like rounds were like, they would hit inside the turret, you know, because they had, the

01:02:04.600 turret didn't protect you much because when they had the high ground on you, they can shoot

01:02:09.180 down in it.

01:02:09.740 They have the angle on it.

01:02:10.700 And it was just, it was so chaotic.

01:02:13.360 Like I, I was always the guy who imagined the worst case scenarios and this was worse

01:02:19.440 than any worst case scenario I could ever imagine.

01:02:21.980 And, uh, I remember with the first trip in, we, we shoved the truck up as far as we could.

01:02:27.040 And I hadn't heard from my team or anything.

01:02:28.900 And I honestly thought they maybe lost their radio or broke it and they got into a house

01:02:32.960 and they're defending a house.

01:02:34.060 And, um, I remember we pulled up as far as we could in this village and, uh, my, I feel

01:02:42.120 on my, my right hand, I just, like, it just got extra, like, I know it sounds stupid, but

01:02:46.940 like extra wet, right?

01:02:48.280 Like it just wasn't sweat.

01:02:49.720 And I look over, just blood, just blood's everywhere.

01:02:52.960 And I'm like, gosh, I've been hit.

01:02:54.500 And, uh, I fall down in the turret and, uh, I see that I have a piece of, I had a piece

01:03:01.860 of shrapnel in my, up in my arm and, uh, I wrapped it up and just got back on the gun.

01:03:08.000 And I knew I was all right.

01:03:08.600 I got back on the gun and we turned the truck around.

01:03:11.000 Uh, we didn't see, we couldn't find anybody.

01:03:13.460 And at this point there were, there were bodies everywhere.

01:03:17.940 And like a lot of where Afghan national army or soldiers.

01:03:21.280 And so what, what I found my interpreter, my interpreter got in the truck, he got in

01:03:26.940 the, the, the machine gun, he got on the gun up top and then I would get out and I would

01:03:31.580 run and try to provide aid to these, these Afghan national army soldiers, you know, I would

01:03:37.640 get to them and, and, uh, I put tourniquets on them.

01:03:41.940 If I could, I would try to get an airway on them.

01:03:43.840 Sometimes I'd have to like lay next to them for a little bit because like I would, I would

01:03:47.840 get there and then I would start getting shot at and I'd have to fight.

01:03:50.300 And, uh, what I would do is I'd bring them back and I would, I put them in the trunk of

01:03:54.680 the Humvee.

01:03:55.100 And so we filled up the first Humvee and we left, like the, the, we went back out.

01:03:59.020 They dropped me off at like kind of the mouth, like where I told you the, the first part

01:04:03.500 was when we turned back into the, the riverbed.

01:04:06.860 So I staged there and we started building what we call a casualty collection point.

01:04:11.820 Right.

01:04:12.220 So it was kind of like the, the first safe zone.

01:04:15.060 Not, I mean, not safe, but not, not really combatant, but like that would be our first

01:04:20.020 area.

01:04:20.400 We dropped these bodies off that.

01:04:21.920 So we did.

01:04:22.540 And, uh, Rodriguez Chavez had to go get another, another truck because the gun was down and

01:04:27.280 there was like, the truck was tore up.

01:04:28.980 We were almost out of ammo.

01:04:30.140 And so I went and got another truck, came back in.

01:04:32.440 I jumped in that truck.

01:04:33.380 We went in again.

01:04:34.280 And so at this time we, we got the Afghan soldiers to bring their, they had these like

01:04:39.740 a Ford Rangers.

01:04:41.440 And so they would bring them in.

01:04:43.280 And what I would do is I would jump out.

01:04:45.600 Rod stayed, Rodriguez Chavez stayed in the driver's seat.

01:04:48.340 Cause like, you didn't want to give the driver's seat up.

01:04:50.480 I mean, imagine if the enemy got, got the Humvee.

01:04:52.740 Right.

01:04:53.220 And so he stayed in the driver's seat.

01:04:56.120 Uh, um, Fazel, the interpreter stayed on the up gun and then I was going out and I

01:05:02.380 was just grabbing the bodies and bringing them back.

01:05:04.560 And what I would do is I would fill the bed of these trucks up with the bodies.

01:05:09.100 Right.

01:05:09.500 And I would, I would put the dead ones on the bottom and then the ones that had a chance

01:05:15.800 to live, I put them on top and we just kept doing this.

01:05:19.580 We did like three or four trips.

01:05:26.120 Dakota, do you ever think, you know, with all due respect to the Afghan national army,

01:05:29.820 I'm here to find four Marines and I can't risk my life spending time getting this guy

01:05:38.540 and getting this guy.

01:05:39.440 And I'm not, you know, like I got, was there ever a thought, I don't have time for this

01:05:44.700 and I'm not going to risk my life for these guys?

01:05:47.200 No, no, because, you know, there is no, um, there is no prioritization.

01:05:56.120 Uh, with, when it comes, it's just good and evil.

01:05:59.580 And, uh, you know, these guys were on my team.

01:06:02.860 Think about what you want about them, but, you know, like I, uh, you know, I don't feel

01:06:07.980 like I just lost, uh, four guys that day.

01:06:10.960 I mean, I, and I lost six, six Afghans.

01:06:13.520 Right.

01:06:13.860 And, uh, you know, I mean, I knew those guys as good as I knew, I knew my Marines and I cared

01:06:21.020 about them too.

01:06:21.660 Right.

01:06:21.980 I mean, you know, uh, you know, just they, they were good guys.

01:06:27.960 They had families.

01:06:28.880 Uh, we were just born in two different places.

01:06:30.660 And so, no, I, I mean, I, obviously like I, I initially I went in there, uh, you know,

01:06:38.440 thinking about my Marines, but you know, I, at the end of the day, I, I did what they would

01:06:47.720 have done for me and, uh, yeah, no, I, I, you know, I, I love those guys, you know, like

01:06:53.720 they, we, we'd gone through some hard times together and, and I'll be honest with you,

01:06:57.520 you know, the, the, the, uh, look people, the, the Afghan national army gets a bad rap,

01:07:02.960 you know, and they, and they're like, I don't know everybody else's experience, but what I'll

01:07:06.480 say is my experience with the Afghan national army, uh, the core guys that I had, obviously

01:07:11.020 there's good and bad.

01:07:12.160 There's good and bad in the Marine Corps.

01:07:13.400 There was good and bad when I served with, there's good and bad in army.

01:07:16.600 There's good and bad and everything.

01:07:18.740 Uh, but what I'll say is, is that the group of Afghans that I served with, uh, I don't

01:07:25.660 know that I would pick Americans over them.

01:07:27.580 Uh, you know, the, as far as, as far as, you know, what I thought about their character.

01:07:33.500 Oh, and I'll, and a lot of the guys who you saved were wounded and would have died if you

01:07:39.720 hadn't gotten them out of there.

01:07:40.940 Not to mention the respect you showed for the Afghan dead in taking their bodies back to a

01:07:45.420 place of safety or where they could be delivered to loved ones.

01:07:49.280 So you go back in.

01:07:50.560 So that was time to, you still hadn't found the Americans.

01:07:53.740 And so you went back in a third time.

01:07:58.560 And at that point, had things died down at all in terms of the shooting, you know, like

01:08:03.180 was the, the static, as you described it, of the, of the gunfire quieting at all?

01:08:07.760 Yeah.

01:08:09.140 So what would happen is, is so we, we, we got a bunch of aircraft on, on station.

01:08:12.980 Right.

01:08:13.200 And so I think it was on my first or second, one of the times when I figured out where everybody

01:08:17.960 else was, I got accountability for everybody else.

01:08:20.440 Um, I came over the radio and finally said, be advised, we have four us missing.

01:08:26.280 Right.

01:08:26.560 I knew that as soon as I said those words, that resources for days are allocated to us.

01:08:32.460 Right.

01:08:32.740 Like now, now you don't want to use, you only use those words when you need to, uh, when

01:08:37.340 it's very critical because, you know, you can't just use it just to get resources because

01:08:41.020 you'll get in trouble, but you know, um, they were missing.

01:08:46.280 I didn't know where they were at.

01:08:47.520 Nobody knew where they were at and we needed the resources.

01:08:50.320 And so when I said that, like, it goes up to a level that, that it, it, like it goes to

01:08:54.880 the top.

01:08:55.400 Right.

01:08:55.660 And so, uh, the prioritization of resources allocation comes to us and, uh, and it did

01:09:02.480 like, we had fast movers on stations, which are airplanes.

01:09:05.520 Um, we had, uh, we ended up getting two Apaches.

01:09:09.840 We got four Kiowas.

01:09:11.560 So, you know, you start getting these allocations of resources that are needed and, uh, to be

01:09:17.300 able to recover these bodies or to be able to hopefully, you know, recover the team alive.

01:09:20.920 And so, uh, and then obviously they're going to launch, uh, PJs, which is pararescue and

01:09:27.000 their, their whole entire mission is to, to get, you know, they're, it's to get down

01:09:31.280 pilots, but, you know, to recover, recover teams.

01:09:34.200 And so we got a team of PJs as well.

01:09:37.480 And so, you know, we, we, what would happen is, is, is while the aircraft were on station,

01:09:42.980 you know, the fighting would die down, but then when they'd leave, uh, you know, to go refuel

01:09:49.320 or resupply or whatever, they were there for less than five minutes because they were

01:09:53.240 completely out of ammunition.

01:09:54.820 Uh, that's, I mean, that that's, that's where the situation was.

01:09:58.200 So when they would go back to resupply, you know, obviously you, you'd have, you know,

01:10:03.180 that they would, they would take advantage of that for sure.

01:10:07.360 You went back in again after being told again, not to, um, which was a useless order at that

01:10:15.460 point and prior. And, uh, and as I understand it, the, this was the time, the third time in

01:10:21.260 that, that you found that the Marines, your fellow Marines.

01:10:25.460 Well, I, I went in and so I think on my third time I went in and I had, had jumped in a truck

01:10:31.360 with, so basically at this point, you know, air was overhead and what they would do is,

01:10:36.440 is they would fly and they would say spot. Right. And so like wherever the helicopter was at that

01:10:41.400 point, I knew that below them was a body. And so it was kind of like our communication to show,

01:10:47.220 like for them to be able to show where, cause the terrain was just, the terraces were, I mean,

01:10:51.500 you know, the terrain was, was, was hard to see. And, um, so they would say spot. And then what I

01:10:57.180 would do is I would, I would run over to wherever that was and I'd grab a body and I'd bring them

01:11:01.900 back. Right. And, um, you know, cause at this point what had happened was a lot of these Afghan

01:11:07.760 soldiers, they were just pretending to be dead, you know, and the only way they would show you

01:11:12.780 they're alive is they'd like move their foot because they couldn't move fast enough. They

01:11:16.500 were getting shot at. And so like the best bet for them was to pretend like they were dead until

01:11:21.500 somebody could help them. Right. And, um, so I, I went in and, and, and so they called spot over on

01:11:30.600 this, this, the Northern side of the Valley. And it was pretty far off and you couldn't get a

01:11:35.160 Humvee over there. So we jumped into a Ford Ranger. We went over and, uh, I got out and

01:11:43.200 the driver stayed in. And as I, I ran around the side of this, like this terrace and the

01:11:48.300 terrace was kind of curved, you know what I mean? Like it's easy to see all the way to

01:11:52.100 the end of a straight wall, right? It's always easy to find the end of a straight wall, but

01:11:56.580 you know, a curved one you can only see so far. And so as I come around, I run up on one

01:12:01.180 of my, literally one of my best friends, uh, Dodali and Dodali was so close to me. Uh,

01:12:09.420 just such an incredible Afghan taught me a lot. And, uh, as I bend over to pick him up,

01:12:17.440 he'd been shot. As I've been over to pick him up, he, uh, I mean, rigor mortis had already

01:12:23.080 set in. So he'd been, he got killed early on. And as I've been over to pick him up, I'm

01:12:28.080 kind of like on my knee, right? I'm up against the terrace and like, I'm on my, my right knee

01:12:31.760 and my left knees up my weapon. Like, you know, when you sit down like that, you don't

01:12:35.700 want to put the barrel in the, in the ground. So, you know, you got to protect the barrel.

01:12:38.820 And so it was sitting facing up. And so as I, I'm reaching down, trying to get him arranged,

01:12:46.360 I'm getting shot at, so I'm trying to stay low. And I just feel this, like, I don't know

01:12:52.900 if you've ever been hit so hard in the head to where you see these like stars, like white

01:12:56.500 stars, but I got hit in the back of the head. And, uh, I, I just, I thought I, I didn't

01:13:05.900 know. I didn't, honestly, I didn't know what happened. And as I turn around, there's this

01:13:09.420 guy standing over me with an AK 47 and he's like pointing at me to go with him. And I just

01:13:18.400 remember thinking to myself, well, first off, I was mad that I'd messed up. And then second

01:13:25.560 off, I just, all I could think about was I, I didn't want my family to see this on TV.

01:13:29.720 Like this never goes anywhere good. You know what I mean? Like, like, and I just, I just

01:13:34.500 like, you're going to kill me. Like, that's all I could think about was like, just kill

01:13:38.760 me, just kill me. And, uh, when I turned my finger was sitting right on the trigger.

01:13:45.260 And so I had what's called a 203 grenade launcher on the bottom of my M4. Uh, and it's basically

01:13:50.560 it's a 40 millimeter grenade. When it goes off it, it takes 28 meters, I think, or 32

01:13:56.700 meters, whatever, but a certain amount of turns and it, and then it explodes. It's literally

01:14:01.300 like a grenade. It's, you know, it kills everything within a five meter radius. So when I turned,

01:14:06.360 I, I, I just, I felt my finger on the trigger and I couldn't remember if it was even loaded.

01:14:11.500 Like, honestly, I didn't know if it was loaded. I didn't know if it was, I didn't know, I didn't

01:14:16.760 know if it was going to go click and then he's going to shoot me or what. And so I squeezed

01:14:20.540 the trigger on it and it hits him in the chest and he falls over. And I, I, I, I don't remember

01:14:30.040 like why I didn't, or if I did, or I don't remember anything about like how I got from

01:14:36.280 there to, I go back to Dada Lee and I'm grabbing him and I'm trying to pick him up. And it's

01:14:44.980 like this fight and he's like, we're rolling on the ground. He's choking. He's like, he's

01:14:49.900 trying to grab my eyes and, and I can't get my gun. And, and it's like, he, he, he's got

01:14:58.520 my, he's literally got, got his arm around me in a chokehold and I'm trying to get out

01:15:02.820 of it. And I'm just like, I'm just so exhausted. And I remember like my vision just starting

01:15:07.840 to like that, just like, I'm going to pass out. Like I'm going to pass out. I don't know

01:15:11.740 if it was because of obviously I'm choking me. I don't know if it was obviously, you

01:15:15.120 know, my muscles just fatigued or me freaking out. And I remember getting this point to

01:15:20.220 where like, you know, like I'm holding on obviously around my neck and I just remember

01:15:25.560 him like loosening up and who knows why he loosened up his grip. Like maybe he's lost

01:15:32.100 enough blood. I don't know. I don't know. And so like, I remember getting over on top of

01:15:35.700 him and I just start fighting him, right? Like I'm fighting him and like, I'm hitting him

01:15:39.660 and I'm trying to grab whatever I can and I get on top of him and he's on his back.

01:15:44.080 And, um, I remember getting on top of him and finally like holding his like face down

01:15:49.620 with my, my forearm and I reach up and I finally, I grab a rock and all I do is I just start bashing

01:15:55.100 this guy in the face. And, uh, I don't know, it was like three or four hits. And I just remember

01:16:01.280 this look in his face and, and, and he just like had this look that he knew he was going

01:16:07.080 to die. And I truly believe that when people die, like they know they're going to die. I truly,

01:16:12.000 I truly believe that there's this look at the point that they know they're gone. They're,

01:16:15.540 they're going to have it. I, I see it when I'm, you know, as a firefighter, I, I seen it in war.

01:16:20.180 I seen it with enemy and I seen it with, with friendlies and he had that look and, and obviously

01:16:27.180 I don't think I thought about it that moment, but I think about it all the time. Cause he's

01:16:30.300 literally the only face that I still see. And I, I just realized I didn't hate that guy.

01:16:40.200 Like, I don't even know him. Uh, he had a family that, that would miss him. I had a family that

01:16:48.220 would miss me. Uh, there was only one way out of it. Like either he was going to die or I was going

01:16:52.760 to die. He believed, he didn't believe he was wrong. He believed in his cause as much as I did.

01:16:58.640 And it was just kind of crazy. Like this point that how we got there was just because we were

01:17:05.180 born in two different places. And, uh, it's at that moment that I realized that, that I wasn't

01:17:11.760 fighting off of hate. I was fighting off of, because I loved my country. I loved my, my people.

01:17:17.960 It was, this wasn't being done out of hate. It was being done out of, because I loved and believed

01:17:22.620 in what I, my life and our country and, and obviously my teammates.

01:17:28.640 And so I killed this guy and it was like, at that point, my life changed forever.

01:17:33.080 I took Donnelly and put it back in the truck and we, we, we left. And then we got in the

01:17:37.960 other Humvee and then we, you know, we located the bodies just a little bit after this and

01:17:43.600 went and grabbed them.

01:17:45.900 It sounds absolutely primal. It sounds like, I mean, talk about fight or flight. Like you

01:17:51.460 were on instinct at that point to save your life. When there was, when I hear you talk about

01:17:56.640 it, I, maybe I'm wrong. I feel like there's a tinge of regret.

01:18:02.080 I don't know. I mean, I don't, I, I, I don't, I don't regret, um, no, I, I don't regret killing

01:18:10.500 him. I, I just regret that it had to, had to come to that. Um, I did, I mean, I don't

01:18:18.180 regret killing anybody. Um, I, there was no other options.

01:18:22.620 You did what was asked of you. Uh, you did, you did what was asked when you did your duty.

01:18:26.060 Yeah. I just, I think it just sucks that like, that it had to come to that. Did it? I mean,

01:18:32.220 that's the question. Did it have to come to that? You know what I mean? Uh, that's the

01:18:38.520 part that sucks. Right. Nobody wins. Right. Nobody wins. Uh, no, what, what was accomplished?

01:18:46.640 Right. Like I, I understand, I understand that, that, that we get someone evil off, off the

01:18:52.220 planet that yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we did. Did, did we change anything though? You know?

01:18:57.220 And that's the, that's the hard part of it is, is, did it have to come to that?

01:19:05.740 I mean, for you, you're the man in the position to ask that question. You're allowed to ask that

01:19:10.480 question. We're all allowed, but it's more, more meaningful coming from you. And I would just say,

01:19:16.800 though, to the extent I'm allowed to opine on it from my anchor chair, the answer is a hundred percent.

01:19:21.780 Yes, it did. It did matter. I don't know that it was worth the blood and treasure, but it definitely

01:19:26.340 did matter just because we left with our tail between our legs, thanks to the decision of our

01:19:31.080 current commander in chief didn't erase what you guys did for us over there. I mean, you kept the

01:19:36.240 homeland safe for 20 years that, that happened. You know, we did not face another massive terrorist

01:19:41.240 attack here because you guys were doing things like that over there. And that, that can't be taken

01:19:45.920 away. No, I, and I, and I guess like my, my, my factor to it is this, is it's not, you know,

01:19:56.000 you could argue all day whether we should have been there or whether we shouldn't, right? Like

01:19:59.740 that, that is a, that's a, that's a, look, I think that if the Taliban thought that we were going to

01:20:04.500 occupy them for 20 years, they would have handed us Osama bin Laden on, on September 12th. Right.

01:20:10.720 But, but the fact is, is that we could have done and left that country better. Like the people that

01:20:18.100 we had there, the troops that we had there, the capabilities that the United States of America has,

01:20:22.940 there's no doubt in my mind that we could have truly made a difference and we could have truly

01:20:27.420 left an everlasting mark and gave them some type of hope of democracy, not necessarily what we have,

01:20:34.580 but something that's more fitting to what the majority of them want, not what America wants for

01:20:40.020 them, but what they want for themselves. And the mass people that live there, they want good. They,

01:20:46.000 they, they want good. They want, they don't want this killing and this evilness. Like they,

01:20:50.460 they don't like, I don't, I don't care what, what anybody says. And I just think that we could

01:20:55.040 have done a better job and we could have done a more of a, a, a, a better job and let them in a

01:21:02.900 better position of hope. If, if we had kept the politics out of it, we'd have let these, these men

01:21:08.740 and women who are just incredible people who were willing to go do the nation's bidding, if we'd have

01:21:13.260 let them do their job and let them, let them have, you know, instead of this being all about

01:21:18.500 politics, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. And there's zero question. We did not

01:21:22.880 leave well, and we did not leave those who we were partnering with well at all. And the news

01:21:28.560 reflects that daily. I mean, for what it's worth on the politics front, Joe Biden's approval numbers

01:21:33.680 have never recovered. They fell thanks to that debacle and they've never recovered. And so I do

01:21:39.140 think Democrat or Republican here in this country, it was held against him. The country knew it was wrong

01:21:45.500 and it wasn't all on him. I mean, I know you're talking not just about the withdrawal, but years

01:21:49.820 beforehand and how Afghanistan was handled. Um, let me, let me pause that. We'll come back to it.

01:21:55.340 Cause I, I want to get to the last phase of this battle. Um, you go back in again, again. So I guess

01:22:01.980 now we're on time number four. What happened that time? And so that was the time. So time number four

01:22:07.960 is the time that we went in and, uh, they located the bodies and, uh, you know, I'll never forget that

01:22:15.500 said, well, and they just said, they, they found for you and they see four bodies. Like that was how

01:22:19.720 they were saying like two bodies, whatever. And so it said five bodies in this trench. And

01:22:25.460 I asked them to drop a, uh, smoke grenade and I took off sprinting and I ran and jumped off this

01:22:34.640 terrace and landed in the ditch. And I landed on top of, uh, Gunner Sergeant Johnson. And then I went a

01:22:41.220 little bit to the left and there was doc Layton with all of his med gear out on top of, um, Lieutenant

01:22:47.700 Johnson. And then a little bit further was Gunny Kenefick and, uh, they'd all been killed.

01:22:54.440 And so it was just like every, everything in me was gone at that moment. I, uh, I remember reaching

01:23:02.820 down and, and, uh, picking, I think I picked up Gunny, Gunny Johnson first and got him was the biggest

01:23:10.760 one. And I picked him up, threw him over my shoulders and I started to carry him out.

01:23:14.780 I just slipped and I fell. Like it was like every bit of energy I had left, I fell flat on my face

01:23:19.440 and I got back up and, and, uh, the, uh, Afghan soldiers, I see them there. They're right there

01:23:26.360 and they're going to, to grab the guys. And, and I was kind of upset. I kind of got mad at them.

01:23:33.600 And I said, Hey, don't, don't touch my guys. I said, I'll take them home. And, uh, Fasdale came

01:23:39.740 up to me and he said, no, he said, uh, and I, I did, I started crying. Like I literally, like when

01:23:46.480 I fell with Gunny Johnson, like I literally started crying and, uh, I'll never forget Fasdale came up

01:23:53.440 to me. He said, I don't, don't cry. You can't show this weakness. And, uh, I was like, you're right.

01:23:59.100 And, uh, and he said, the Afghans want to help you get your guys out because they just watched

01:24:06.260 you help get their guys out. And, uh, it was such a, uh, kind of, for me, it was like a monumental

01:24:13.360 moment in my life of, you know, it's not us against them. It's just, it's, it's good against

01:24:18.920 bad. And, you know, they helped me carry them out. We, we put them in the, the backs of these

01:24:24.220 trucks. And I'll never forget. I jumped in the back of this, this, this Afghan Humvee. It was

01:24:28.640 like a high back. I had Gunny, Kenneth Fick and Lieutenant Johnson in my truck. And we

01:24:37.640 left the team and we were just heading back to base and it was on the way out. All these

01:24:41.860 Afghans, the villagers were standing at the mouth of the Valley, just laughing at me, like

01:24:47.500 just pointing and laughing. And, uh, you know, we went on back and got on base and yeah, that

01:24:54.680 was, that was kind of the end of the day. I know in the book you mentioned at that moment,

01:25:00.100 you're thinking, what am I going to do to them? You know, maybe I'll do something to

01:25:04.640 them. And was it Faisal or somebody in the truck said, no, it's not worth it. I did. I did.

01:25:12.340 I, I, uh, I did. I did. I, uh, yeah, but it just could blame you. No, no, that's lame

01:25:18.720 you for that. That's what separates us from now. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But

01:25:23.760 the feeling is completely human. And I mean, you know, it's Dakota, when I hear the story,

01:25:29.820 I feel like you kept your promise. You know, you, you were on the road. You did meet them,

01:25:37.640 not in the way any of you intended, but you lived up to your word. Yeah.

01:25:45.860 Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's still, it's still the biggest failure in my life.

01:25:51.980 The biggest failure. Yeah. I mean, yeah. When I, you know, you don't get to change.

01:25:59.780 You don't get to change. Um, just cause it doesn't feel good. Doesn't mean you don't,

01:26:06.380 you don't, you don't get to, you don't get to change it. You know what I mean? Like,

01:26:11.080 you know, it's just, it's just the facts of it. You know, like I, my teammates are dead and I'm not,

01:26:16.660 it's like I told, it's like I told them when they called me to give me the award, uh, when they said,

01:26:22.480 you're a hero. And I said, well, why don't you call my, why don't you call my teammates and let them

01:26:25.960 know how much of a hero I am? Uh, you know, that, that this is the reality of it. And, and, you know,

01:26:32.920 like, I don't say it to feel sorry for myself because I don't feel sorry for myself. You know,

01:26:37.840 look, this is, uh, you know, I, I, I failed the biggest failure of my life, but, but it's also

01:26:44.220 what, what has, what is, has driven me to, to, you know, to, to push myself to, to different limits

01:26:53.540 and to still continue to understand that. I don't understand this. How is it your failure?

01:26:57.220 How is it yours? Well, I, I, I left that morning to go in there and, and, and get them out alive.

01:27:04.340 And, uh, you know, like life's pretty simple. You either get them out alive or you die trying.

01:27:09.760 And if you didn't die trying where you didn't try hard enough. And that doesn't make sense.

01:27:14.140 That's, I, that's not true. Well, I mean, it's not true. Your, your, your promise would be no more

01:27:20.320 kept if you had died in the effort, right? I mean, you just, there just would have been more

01:27:24.900 bloodshed, more lives lost. Yeah. But, but, you know, I, yeah, I mean, I, I hear you. Like,

01:27:34.780 I'm, I'm not, I'm not sitting here saying that it's supposed to, it's supposed to make sense,

01:27:39.260 but I know. And I know I'm not going to convince you. I just, but at the end of the day,

01:27:42.880 my audience doesn't want that remark to go on, on challenged because we're, we're all on your side

01:27:48.300 and not a single person listening to this thinks that you failed in any way.

01:27:53.400 Well, I mean, at the end of the day, though, I went in there to get them out alive. And I truly

01:28:00.900 believe in my heart that on that first trip that I went in, that I might've been 50 yards from them.

01:28:09.380 I truly believe that they were alive. And, uh, after I was hit, like, and the gun went down,

01:28:18.600 I turned around. Right. And, uh, and I, you know, I just, I, I, I think that I took that into my,

01:28:28.800 I don't know. I just don't think that I had the right to do that.

01:28:33.160 Wow. Yeah. But I mean, we all live, we all have to live with their decisions,

01:28:39.600 you know, and that's, that's just part of it. And again, I don't, I don't like,

01:28:42.860 I don't want people to, I hate, I hate when I see people comment on this and they're like,

01:28:47.140 oh, well, you know, he's just struggling. No, no, I'm not. I'm not struggling, but I'm also not

01:28:51.380 going to change the narrative to feel good. Right. Like so many people try to do through life.

01:28:54.980 I, I use this as an example to go around and teach people, right. Like, you know, me serving or,

01:29:01.280 or, or this is why you train, or this is why, you know, you, you, you, this is why you,

01:29:07.180 you don't, you don't go into things casually or, you know what I mean? Like I, I use this as good

01:29:11.480 and it is my fuel. It's my fuel to go around and tell the stories. It's my fuel to, to remind people

01:29:17.480 that, Hey, look like, you know, um, that, that, that life's hard.

01:29:26.340 I wonder if you can see that, you know, that the same thing that makes you blame yourself for this

01:29:33.460 is the thing that saved the lives of 13 Americans and 23 Afghans that day. Like the thing that makes

01:29:41.180 you see everything as a matter of your personal responsibility is the thing that won you the

01:29:47.340 medal of honor and it's your, your burden and your blessing to bear. Yeah. It was always the hardest

01:29:55.320 part of getting the medal, right. Like, um, you know, I, it was, it was just such an oxymoron of I,

01:30:05.040 I went against orders. I lost my entire teammates. Like I lost the guys I cared about. Uh, and now I'm

01:30:14.260 awarded for it. And, you know, I always, and for a long time, I don't, I don't necessarily look at it

01:30:19.780 like this anymore, but you know, first off, I don't wear the medal. Uh, I don't, if, if it's not

01:30:26.900 in my daughter's backpack or her, I gave it to my daughter, you know, she enjoys it way more than I

01:30:32.480 ever have. And, um, I just, you know, I always felt like it was like a punishment to me. This was part

01:30:41.300 of the punishment for, uh, for the failure. Wow. I mean, even under your totally ungenerous

01:30:50.220 interpretation of what happened that day and generous to yourself, there would be failures

01:30:56.120 and there would be enormous successes. I mean, do you, do you allow yourself the, the feeling of,

01:31:02.380 I don't know if it's triumph or gratitude that you were, you, you helped save the lives of so many

01:31:08.880 others, dozens of others? Yeah. I mean, look, I, I, I don't, I don't know. I honestly, until you just

01:31:15.860 said, I mean, I, I don't really know that I ever thought about it. You know, I don't know that.

01:31:20.040 I don't know that. I don't know that I think about it. Right. Like I, I just think about,

01:31:24.340 you know, I just think about the moments that, that changed my life. And, and, you know, I'll say

01:31:30.280 this, you know, the, the man that I am today, like I, I, you know, that, that, that guy, you know,

01:31:37.100 that I came into contact with in there, you know, I feel like he, he gave me the heart that I have,

01:31:43.560 right. He, he, he gave me the empathy that I have. He gave me the understanding. Like if I can find a

01:31:48.020 way to connect with that man, there's no way, there's no reason we can't find a way to connect

01:31:54.600 here. You know, there's no, you know, choosing to, to, to hate people and choosing to choosing hate

01:32:01.320 over love is something that, that I know it sounds, it sounds so weird, but like choosing hate over

01:32:07.200 love is, is, is truly a harder choice. It's like trying to frown over smile. Right. It's, it's,

01:32:12.340 it's, it's, there's, there's more reasons to care about people and to have empathy towards people.

01:32:16.400 And we can all, we are all more alike than, than we are different.

01:32:22.380 Hmm. What a perspective. And from such a moment, as you described it with that, with that Afghan

01:32:30.320 man, you mentioned this led to the end of your career as a Marine, though, though one is never

01:32:38.340 a former Marine, right? You're never a former Marine, but, um, can you explain why? Because

01:32:44.480 things that this, the stress and the trauma of what happened that day stayed with you.

01:32:50.420 Yeah. I mean, I, I, I was in a bad spot. I mean, look, I, I'll, I'll say this. I was,

01:32:56.200 I was struggling, uh, struggled for a long time. Uh, you know, just a lot of factors, right? I don't

01:33:02.760 obviously like war's war, right? Like I signed up to do that. I mean, listen, this, this is what I

01:33:07.480 get. I signed up for it. Um, I knew what I was getting into. It's like a, you know, it's like a

01:33:11.800 football player getting mad at getting hit. Right. Um, but, but what I didn't sign up for is the

01:33:17.780 incompetency and leadership, the lack of accountability. I didn't sign up for, um,

01:33:24.520 you know, I didn't sign up for that. And that was the part where I was so mad

01:33:28.000 that, that, that, that, that, that I probably struggled with more than anything.

01:33:32.480 I don't blame you. You, and I won't, I want to talk about that, but you, as I understand it,

01:33:37.880 you were sent back home because you were starting to behave in reckless ways. You were carrying this,

01:33:42.160 this, you're carrying this with you and acting in ways that were, that made clear you were,

01:33:46.780 I don't know if I want to say you had a death wish, but you were taking unnecessary risks to

01:33:50.540 yourself. So you got sent back home and you went into, uh, a treatment program, right? For,

01:33:57.280 for PTSD. And you're very open in your book about the fact that, I mean, this is amazing.

01:34:04.900 Two weeks before the president of the United States called you and told you that you were being

01:34:11.000 awarded the medal of honor, you attempted to take your own life. Yeah, it was, it was a little

01:34:16.020 bit before that, but yeah, I, yeah, I did. I mean, it was, yeah, yeah, it was, uh,

01:34:23.780 you know, I just looked around at what I was doing to people, you know, and, and, and like the,

01:34:28.660 I just looked around it, like the, the worry I put on my dad. Um, I just felt like a burden and,

01:34:37.240 you know, like, I never wanted to be a burden on anybody. Like I never, I still don't. I mean,

01:34:43.720 I never, if I'm not, if I'm not an asset or I'm not a value, I'm not contributing in some way. Like

01:34:48.940 I don't want to be part of it. And, uh, I felt like where I was at in life at that point that,

01:34:53.680 that, you know, that I just couldn't get my stuff together and, and, and I just, I, I should fix it.

01:35:02.460 Right. And, uh, can you describe it Dakota? Like what, what was it? What, what was going through

01:35:06.800 your head? What was the pain? What, what was it that made you feel like a burden?

01:35:11.980 Just like, you know, I, I just like, I was evil, you know, like I just, like the fear I could see

01:35:21.640 in people's eyes, you know, with me, like I was a monster. It's just like drinking and just,

01:35:26.460 you know, you know, the thing is, is this, and people don't talk about this much, you know,

01:35:32.180 you don't fight evil with nice people. You know what I mean? Like, like you, you don't,

01:35:41.940 you don't fight rough and ragged, you know, rough and rugged people with, with, you know,

01:35:49.560 with, with, with nice people. Like you either got to get on their level, you either got to get on

01:35:54.220 their level or, or, or you're going to get killed. You know, it's like, it's just, it's kind of like

01:36:01.260 animals. And, um, and I came back and just, I don't know, I couldn't turn it off and I was hurting

01:36:11.340 and, and, uh, I didn't know what to do with it. I mean, you know, I was 21 years old and, uh,

01:36:17.420 and I, yeah, I just, I just didn't know what to do with it. And so just turn into alcohol,

01:36:23.800 which is never, which is, alcohol has never been known for helping anything. And, uh, and,

01:36:30.100 you know, because that was part of the culture, that's how we dealt with everything in the Marine

01:36:33.980 Corps before. Right. So it's just, it's continued on the behaviors that I knew and I got out and,

01:36:39.360 and yeah, I just, I just, I don't know. Like I just seen, there was a couple of friends that I had

01:36:44.840 and I just, I think it was that night that I just seen like the fear in their eyes.

01:36:48.840 And, uh, and I just, I remember driving home and I pulled off this highway at my buddy's shop

01:36:56.560 because I knew, you know, I didn't want anybody worried about me. Right. So I pulled in and I

01:37:01.680 knew that he would be in cause he comes into work every morning and I just, yeah, I mean, I was,

01:37:06.860 I was going to do it right there. So that way that when he came in, he would, you know, he'd find me

01:37:10.960 and then nobody had to, at least nobody had to worry about me, you know?

01:37:14.840 In a small miracle, you try to use a firearm and learned after pulling the trigger,

01:37:22.540 it was unloaded. Yeah. And I had shot that gun that day. Like I had shot it that day. And, uh,

01:37:31.080 like, I don't know that I, I don't have too many guns that are unloaded. And so like I, that gun was,

01:37:36.700 yeah, I stuck it to my head and I squeezed the trigger and it just like, it went click and there

01:37:41.880 was no round in it. And I don't know if, you know, I, I, I feel like I know who did it. I don't,

01:37:47.300 I don't, I don't truly know though. Like I, obviously my heart, I, I feel like I know, but,

01:37:51.840 but I, you know, I, yeah, I mean, again,

01:37:57.620 You think someone took the bullets out someone who cared about you?

01:38:00.660 Yeah. I think somebody probably seen how I was that night and they,

01:38:03.780 you know, they, they took, took the bullets out. And so I remember thinking to myself after it went

01:38:10.280 click, I remember thinking to myself, I made a deal with myself that, that day. And I said,

01:38:15.300 if you're going to keep living life this way, then put bullets in it and get it over with,

01:38:23.660 like, just do it. You know, uh, don't ruin everybody else's life, uh, over yourself. And,

01:38:31.960 but if you don't do it and you put the vehicle in drive, you're not going to look back. And

01:38:40.440 that's, you know, that here I am. That was the before and after moment.

01:38:47.380 And you never found out, no one ever said to you, I took the bullets out. Like you don't,

01:38:51.840 you don't know. I didn't, honestly, I didn't tell, like, I literally did not mention that to

01:38:58.600 anyone. The first person I ever told that to was being West when he wrote my book. And I just,

01:39:06.000 cause I felt, I felt so obligated to tell that piece because in these books that we came back

01:39:14.300 and wrote, we, you know, we, it looks like people are larger than life. And, you know,

01:39:19.940 what wasn't talked about early on was, was that we all struggled, you know, wasn't the demons.

01:39:26.020 And I felt like I couldn't talk about, you know, the battle and tell the war story without telling

01:39:31.840 the cost. Right. Well, too often we, we skip right past that in an attempt to honor our soldiers,

01:39:39.260 you know, our Marines, it, it feels like, well, why would we want to go to that place? That's the

01:39:43.820 dark place of the story. But I think all of it is to your credit. I mean, all of it's to your credit

01:39:48.280 to reach out to your, you know, fellow service members and say, I went through this. It's real.

01:39:53.060 There's no shame in it. It's, there's no shame. It's actually, I don't know, for lack of a better

01:39:58.280 word, normal to have immense trauma and stress after something like that. And it makes me not

01:40:04.960 to therapize you Dakota, but it makes me want to stop on, you know, they don't send nice men to war.

01:40:11.700 You know, there, I was evil. Like you, you have to make room for the, for the very real

01:40:18.260 alternative, right? This is cognitive behavioral therapy. Like the, the elephant body is saying,

01:40:23.900 you're evil, you're evil. But the man riding on top of the elephant is, and can manage those

01:40:28.460 emotions and say to himself, no. Okay. The alternate narrative is I can behave in ways

01:40:35.400 that might resemble evil if they weren't done for good reasons. You know, if I weren't sent here on

01:40:41.240 a contract basis by my government to defend my country, um, I can behave in ways that might look

01:40:46.880 awful to somebody who didn't understand the context of it, but it doesn't make me an evil man,

01:40:53.040 you know, like Osama bin Laden evil. Right. But Dakota Meyer, no.

01:40:58.780 Yeah, no. And I, and I, and I'm with you, right? Like, like I have the capability of being evil,

01:41:04.600 right. I have the capability of being a monster. Um, and I've experienced that and had to, had to

01:41:11.020 do that at levels that a lot of people won't have to write. And I pray that they don't ever have to.

01:41:15.820 Um, but I know I've, I've seen it, you know, it's, it's like, it's almost like, uh, I don't know.

01:41:21.460 It's, it's almost like, uh, you know, you know, like in an argument, like, you know, like the first

01:41:26.120 time you get an argument with somebody and, and you're like, Oh, shut up. And like, Whoa, somebody told me

01:41:30.060 to shut up. Right. And then it just escalates. And right. The further you get in that, like,

01:41:33.580 whether it goes to throwing punches or whatever, that's your new, that's the new bar standard.

01:41:38.420 Right. Um, you know, I, I got to experience that, you know, for better or worse. Right. Uh,

01:41:45.280 but yeah, I'm, I'm not even like, I, I'm, I'm a, I'm a good person. I am on the side of good. Uh,

01:41:51.360 but I think that like the hard part is, is going over there and, and having to live with these evil

01:41:58.800 creatures and right. Like I'm, I'm saying we're, there is a lot of difference for us. Right. Like

01:42:05.460 when people talk about, well, how's, how's America any different than, than, you know,

01:42:09.580 than Russia, than what Russia is doing? Well, like, like, first off, let's sit down and we can

01:42:13.520 have a conversation about this. Let's talk about our troops. Let's talk about how we handle ourselves

01:42:17.260 over there. Right. I understand that there's a fine line in any situation between murder and

01:42:23.260 self-defense, right. Or, or, or whatever it is. And literally it's intent. It's what your intentions

01:42:27.840 were. And so, you know, this is an aspect that, that, yeah, I agree with you. I I'm not evil. Like

01:42:37.020 I I'm, I'm a good person, but like at that point in time at 21 years old, after, after being consumed

01:42:42.580 in this and doing this over and over and over and over again, and, and literally like, you know,

01:42:47.920 it's, you, you start to question, you know, you start like, you have to figure out a way to

01:42:53.080 control that. And I don't think that any 21 year old, uh, most 21 year olds can't even control,

01:42:58.220 uh, you know, their, their, their lunch account in college, much less, uh, the, the emotional

01:43:04.500 levels of, of this aspect. Right. I mean, we have people right now complaining that they're

01:43:09.200 deeply depressed and having suicidal ideations, allegedly over mean tweets. I mean, it's like

01:43:14.860 what you went through is the ultimate in trauma. I mean, it really is. And it doesn't make it

01:43:21.960 different just because you're a Marine. And honestly, one of the reasons why it's important

01:43:25.680 for you to tell your story, uh, you know, warts and all is because we are for lack of a better

01:43:30.820 term, little trigger happy in the United States, or at least we have been for the past 20 years.

01:43:35.220 And as we debate, you know, just how provocative should we be toward Russia in this conflict with

01:43:39.720 Ukraine and how, you know, we had Joe Biden basically saying we will go in against China if

01:43:44.720 they try to take Taiwan. Is that like, maybe, maybe we could dial back the rhetoric and be a little

01:43:49.740 bit more thoughtful and cautious before we just threaten American troops are coming or to send

01:43:54.620 our American troops in because you are the perfect example of how special these guys are and how we

01:44:02.520 need to, we need to be really, really careful and thoughtful before we risk the lives of men and

01:44:09.620 women like you. Yeah, we, yeah, we, we, yeah, we do. We do. And, and, and, uh, yeah. And, and,

01:44:16.480 and not, not just because like risking, you know, our lives, but, but the, the, the spill factor on

01:44:24.180 this is astronomical, you know, the spill factor of guess what? Like there's going to be people who

01:44:30.200 have no people from, from other countries that, that have that, you know, they didn't do the

01:44:36.900 politics. They, they didn't, you know, they're not, they're not the ones making these decisions to go

01:44:41.260 to war either. Right. And so, you know, it's a factor, the humanization, you know, we've got to

01:44:46.140 stop taking the humanization factor out of all this. Right. And, and, and, and yeah, look, there's,

01:44:54.400 I'm telling you, there's nobody who'd be more willing to go do the nation's bidding on behalf

01:44:58.680 of democracy more than me. And, and, and guess what? Like, look, we, as much as we want to talk

01:45:05.140 about the generation, the country's weak or whatever, I'll tell you this, we still have an all

01:45:09.060 volunteer military. You know what I mean? We still have men and women who believe in this

01:45:13.160 country and these ideas, uh, in a time right now where it's not, it's not necessarily a cool thing,

01:45:19.840 but who are still signing up and willing to raise their right hand to go fight on behalf of this

01:45:23.900 country, no matter what the politics are, no matter what, what the, the, the news wave is,

01:45:28.200 there, there's still men and women who are doing it. Right. And we have to be, we have to hold those

01:45:33.120 with value. We have to really put some time and effort in to thinking about where are we sending

01:45:39.080 them and what are the repercussions of this? And is it worth it? At what cost? At what cost are we

01:45:44.100 going to do this? You know, I think that's what they, they, somebody should have to show before we

01:45:48.960 start sending this in at what cost, at what cost are we going to defend? Uh, you know, are we going

01:45:55.100 to defend Taiwan at what cost are we going to help out Ukraine? Right. At what cost? Right. And as long

01:46:01.560 as, as long as they'll put out at what cost and what our objective is, I think that's got to be

01:46:08.300 identified, but there's been no accountability. Like what, what was our objective in Iraq? What

01:46:12.160 was our objective in Afghanistan? Right. It just kept getting changed. The ball kept getting moved

01:46:16.120 and then we're there forever. And then troops just, you know, guys just keep getting killed.

01:46:19.620 And it's like, tell us what we're doing. Tell us what we're going after. Right. Like what, what is it

01:46:24.040 like, like identify the objectives. Okay. Once we do this, we're leaving and that's it. Right. And, and

01:46:29.420 that that's what it's got to come down to. And we've got to be able to lay out and say the cost

01:46:34.840 and let people know that. So let's flash forward a bit and we'll, we'll conclude with sort of the,

01:46:40.900 the most recent chapter, because you get, you get the call from president Obama. You're not in a great

01:46:46.600 place emotionally. Love the story. We talked about this last time you were on with Rob O'Neill,

01:46:51.720 about how you told him you were too busy. You couldn't chat. The president of the United States is

01:46:55.560 calling your, you're like, it's not a good time, sir. I actually work for a living.

01:46:59.040 So can you just explain that what happened there? Yeah. I was busy. You know, like I was pouring

01:47:03.300 concrete. I was tying steel and pouring concrete. I was actually working for my cousin and you know,

01:47:08.060 the, they, they called the headquarters Marine Corps called me and said, Hey, they're going to do,

01:47:13.200 they need to, well, first off they called me. I don't know why. And they just tell me they need

01:47:17.640 to send somebody out to talk to me. And I was nervous, right? Like I, why would headquarters Marine

01:47:23.100 Corps be contacting me after I'm out? Yeah. Sounds ominous. Yeah. It was, I thought I was in trouble.

01:47:29.520 Right. I thought like, I, I thought, I thought I was in trouble. Yeah. You disobeyed a bunch of

01:47:33.580 orders. You know, it's like, who knows what this is going to be about? Yeah. I thought I was in

01:47:38.180 trouble. And, uh, they, so they fly a guy out and I meet him and he, and he tells me, he goes, Hey,

01:47:46.740 look, you're going to be receiving the medal of honor. And I go, man, you got the wrong guy.

01:47:49.780 And, uh, he said, no, no, you're going to be receiving it. It's actually, I guess it was the

01:47:56.320 day that it was going from the secretary of defense over to the white house. And his last

01:48:03.000 signature was, was president Obama. And president Obama is obviously going to do the recommendation

01:48:06.420 of, of, of whoever it was at the time. And so I, I just told him, I'm not going to accept

01:48:14.860 it. I said, you know, why don't you all just mail it to me? And he said, no. And we kind

01:48:22.800 of, we kind of went back and forth. The guy's name was Colonel Otto, uh, just a really, really,

01:48:26.500 really incredible new being, but it turned out to be a close friend. And I said, I don't want to

01:48:32.220 just tell him I'm not coming. And so long story short, we go back and forth and I agree. I agree

01:48:39.660 that I'll accept it as long as they have a ceremony at each one of my teammates grave sites at the same

01:48:44.920 time. And, uh, the, uh, the Patriot guard writers did that for me. And so long story. So then they,

01:48:53.580 they tell you, they're like, Hey, you know, the, the president's going to call you. They call me

01:48:57.040 on a Friday and say, Hey, the president's gonna call you on a Monday at 1140. Uh, we need you to

01:49:02.520 be on a landline an hour prior. Um, yeah, you know, and I was like, I can't do that. I gotta,

01:49:07.900 I gotta, I've got to work. What do you mean? I said, look, I got a cell phone. I'm like,

01:49:13.600 he can call me before work. And they're like, no, it's too early. I said, well, he can call me after

01:49:17.720 work. You know, I get home about seven and they're like, no, it's too late. I said, well, then he can just

01:49:21.960 call me on my cell phone. I'll take my lunch break, you know, at 1140. And that way I can

01:49:27.620 talk to him on lunch. I get 30 minutes. And so they finally arranged it to where he could call it.

01:49:34.120 And so I'm sitting at this gas station in Indiana. I was, we were pouring this slab

01:49:38.920 for this school and we're sitting up there and I'm just eating these gas station, uh, this gas station

01:49:46.420 and we're sitting at the table and 1150 rolls around nothing, 12 o'clock, nothing. And I'm like,

01:49:53.560 well, I'm going back to work. So I started to go back to work and my phone rings and it's one of

01:49:59.200 his aides or something. And she goes, I'm, I'm just so sorry that he's late. And I go, well,

01:50:03.480 I gotta go back to work. You know, I'll try to answer the phone if I can, but you know, I've got to

01:50:07.300 work for a living. No, you all don't pay my bills. And, um, she's like, okay. And so a long story

01:50:13.880 of short, I get ready to, I'm getting ready to get on a machine and my phone rings and it's unknown.

01:50:18.340 And I usually don't answer those calls, but I figured that today would be the day if I should.

01:50:22.920 And it comes up and he goes, uh, Dakota. And I go, yes, he goes, this is Barack Obama. And I go,

01:50:28.200 Hey, what's going on, sir. You know? And then he told me I'd be getting a, getting the medal of honor.

01:50:33.660 Wow. I would be remiss if I didn't play some of that moment, because I know you were going through a

01:50:39.060 lot, but for the rest of us, it was quite something to watch that happen. I remember,

01:50:46.460 I remember being on the air watching it, just stunned and so moved by your story.

01:50:50.500 Here is a bit of the president of the United States, Barack Obama, presenting Dakota Meyer

01:50:55.620 with the medal of honor. Watch.

01:50:58.020 It's been said that where there is a brave man in the thickest of the fight,

01:51:04.540 there is the post of honor. Today, we pay tribute to an American who placed himself in the thick of

01:51:11.660 the fight again and again and again. I would point out something else. Of all the medal of honor

01:51:19.680 recipients in recent decades, Dakota is also one of the youngest. He's 23 years old and he performed

01:51:28.180 the extraordinary actions for which he is being recognized today when he was just 21 years old.

01:51:33.580 Despite all this, I have to say, Dakota is one of the most down to earth guys that you will ever

01:51:40.440 meet. And because of your humble example, our kids, especially back in Columbia, Kentucky and

01:51:46.060 in small towns all across America, they'll know that no matter who you are or where you come from,

01:51:52.360 you can do great things as a citizen and as a member of the American family.

01:51:56.240 You certainly can. Second youngest recipient ever. Third living recipient of the Afghanistan-Iraq wars.

01:52:04.880 First living U.S. Marine to be given the honor in 38 years. And at just 22 years old for actions

01:52:12.760 taken at 21, at age 21, again, 13 American lives saved, 23 Afghan lives saved before he's barely able

01:52:24.380 to even have a drink. I mean, it's really extraordinary. Um, you went on to marry Bristol

01:52:31.640 Palin, Sarah Palin's daughter and who you met, I understand given a speech with Sarah Palin and

01:52:38.060 there was Bristol and the two of you had two daughters and ended in divorce. And, uh, I understand

01:52:44.380 you and she are in a decent place right now, according to what I read. Yeah. That was another

01:52:49.340 thing for which you entirely blamed yourself, according to what I, what I read, but you're

01:52:53.660 in a good place now. Yeah. Yeah. It's all good. You know, I got, I got two beautiful daughters and,

01:52:58.540 and, you know, that's, that's what matters. Like my, my girls are my world. And which daughter gets

01:53:03.500 to carry the medal of honor in her backpack? So, uh, so sailor, so sailor, she, she's my oldest.

01:53:10.280 Um, you know, I, I gave it to her and, you know, she honestly, the funny part is that she lost.

01:53:15.920 So like we went like a month, month, month and a half, uh, without it, we couldn't find it. And

01:53:22.400 it showed back up in her backpack on the way home one day, I guess she'd left it at school or

01:53:27.340 something. Oh my God. I mean, on the bright side, if the teacher finds this, it's very clear who it

01:53:32.360 belongs to. Yeah. I don't know that people, I don't know if she let somebody borrow it or what,

01:53:38.040 but yeah, that's quite the show and tell. So it's like, the other kids are like, look at this cool car.

01:53:42.660 I won at the arcade. She wears, I mean, she wears it all the time. Like she wears it to

01:53:47.220 like, when we go eat at Chili's, she wears it every time, walks in, like tells people she won it.

01:53:53.560 That must be kind of awkward for you. Do they want you to tell the story? What do you do then?

01:53:57.900 Most people don't know what it is. You know what I mean? Like most people,

01:54:01.180 99.9% of Americans could, you know, wouldn't know what, what the medal of honor looked like.

01:54:06.560 So this is, it reminds me a little bit of Richard Dreyfuss who won the Academy Award

01:54:11.860 in the 1970s for best actor. And he keeps it in his refrigerator, but he has a different MO

01:54:19.300 because he figures at some point, somebody is going to ask for a drink, you know, so he can

01:54:22.340 send them over there. It's just like a conversation starter. That's a, that's a good idea.

01:54:28.500 So you can do some fun things with it if you want to, you know, keep, keep it rolling when your

01:54:32.400 daughter gets older and how his father had changed you and your world perspective. Cause I I'm sure

01:54:38.260 it has. Yeah. You know, like, so the, the, the actual, the, the person, so her name is Katie

01:54:44.020 Cobb. She was a psychologist, uh, that they embedded them at that, you know, at that time with us,

01:54:48.720 or when there was like an event like this. And so she, she ultimately made the decision for me to come

01:54:52.640 home. And, and, uh, you know, for a long time I was mad at her, you know, like I, uh, I was really mad

01:55:00.080 at her. And, you know, after, after having Atlee and, and, you know, things kind of fatherhood

01:55:05.640 kind of, kind of catching up to me and, you know, I just, I really appreciated her. And I called her,

01:55:11.100 I called her probably nine years later, eight years later. And I just told her, I sort of like,

01:55:16.160 thank you. You know, like I, I don't, I still don't agree with your decision. Uh, but I, I really

01:55:21.580 do appreciate you sending me home and, and, you know, fatherhood is fatherhood has, um,

01:55:28.020 I mean, you know, you think, you know, a lot about life, uh, then, then, then you become

01:55:33.740 a parent and then you realize that, you know, you might be a black belt in life, but you're

01:55:38.900 just, uh, you know, when you have kids, you go back to being a white belt, you know, nothing.

01:55:42.880 And, you know, it's changed my whole perspective, you know, like having two daughters and, and,

01:55:48.780 uh, you know, I need them more than they'll ever need me. And just, just being able to,

01:55:53.180 uh, to do this, you know, I think, I think the cool part about life is now is, you know,

01:56:00.240 used to, I, I, I lived life because I had nothing to lose, you know, like I lived life. I'd go over

01:56:05.760 and fight like that. I, I, you know, I do the things that I did because I had nothing to lose.

01:56:09.900 And, and now I watch what I do because I got a lot to lose. I've got a lot to lose and my life is

01:56:15.000 good. And, and, uh, I, I wake up every day and I just, I'm just so fortunate that I get to do this

01:56:20.500 again. And do you, are you feeling better, you know, mentally, emotionally, have you continued

01:56:27.220 with therapy? You seem, I mean, you seem like you're in a much better place. And I, obviously

01:56:31.160 from our interview with Rob and your book, I know you're doing public speaking and leadership

01:56:35.280 seminars and so on. In addition to working as a firefighter, you seem to me to be doing well

01:56:40.020 and to, to, to feel well, but you tell me. Yeah, no, life's good. Like life is good. Like,

01:56:45.840 I mean, I, I don't, yeah, I mean, I, I just, I mean, I, you know, I'm surrounded by great people.

01:56:52.780 I get to wake up every day and I get to be part of this, you know, I get to do this. It's, it's,

01:56:57.700 it's such an awesome, awesome life that we get to do. And, and, uh, yeah, I mean, I, yeah.

01:57:03.300 How'd you get there? How did you get from A to B on that score? You know, cause when, when last we

01:57:08.500 left the story of, of your mental wellbeing, you were not in a good place. So how did you get that guy who

01:57:14.220 drove forward in the truck and said, no, looking back to this guy? Well, you know, I, I had to

01:57:19.340 stop, I had to stop blaming the world for my problems. You know, that was the first, that was

01:57:23.760 the first step of, of fixing is I had to, I had to stop walking around, feeling sorry for myself

01:57:28.100 and expecting, expecting the world to feel sorry for me. Um, you know, everybody's gone through

01:57:32.960 something. The worst day of my life is no more significant than, than the worst day of your life

01:57:37.900 to you. Uh, the fact is, is that, you know, we all have a choice with these things and, and there's

01:57:43.200 plenty of things out there to help us. And, and, but it's still, at the end of the day,

01:57:46.600 it comes down to your own choice. It comes down to, to, to you making the decision to,

01:57:50.740 to find good. And there's plenty there, there's there for every bad thing you can say about

01:57:55.040 this world or about your life or about anything else. There's 10 good things that you can choose

01:57:59.120 to, to see too. And, and that, that's what it, that's what it comes down to is that aspect

01:58:03.700 of it, of, of finding you look at whether, whether you want to find bad or you want to find

01:58:08.020 good, you'll find it. And, um, you know, for me, it, it, it, it took a lot of, a lot

01:58:15.080 of hard times. It took a, you know, it, it took a lot of hard times and it took a lot

01:58:19.920 of moments of, of, of just self-reflecting and having to face failure. And, and then finally

01:58:25.580 saying, Hey, look, I'm going to change this, right? You know, you don't change anything

01:58:28.600 when you're the victim, you don't fix anything. You have no control when you're the victim.

01:58:32.520 And at the point that you stop being the victim, you find a way to, to, to change your, your

01:58:38.960 perspective on, on, on, you're not the victim. Uh, you're going to change up. You're going

01:58:43.120 to change what you can to change the circumstances and things will change. And that, that's what,

01:58:48.080 you know, I had to stop thinking that the world was going to change for me. And I started to

01:58:51.480 have to, you know, change for the world. I, I'm going to take a risk here and say that

01:58:56.640 Lieutenant Johnson, Sergeant Johnson, Sergeant Kennefic and Coorsman Layton would never

01:59:02.280 have wanted you to spend your life blaming yourself, feeling awful, calling yourself evil.

01:59:11.080 They would have wanted you out there enjoying yourself, having love, having your, your family

01:59:17.600 until you can, as they said, see them on the flip side.

01:59:23.140 Well, that was it, right? I used to wear the bracelets on each, each wrist, right. And, uh,

01:59:28.220 of my teammates names and, you know, used to, I mean, I obviously still do like when I get

01:59:33.920 to go pick my kids up, uh, you know, we, we were week on week off. When I get to walk

01:59:38.980 in that school and I get to see my kids after a week and they come running down that hallway

01:59:43.420 and they come screaming, dad, you know, that, that you look forward to those moments, right?

01:59:48.120 Like those are, those are the moments that melt your heart. And I'll never forget one day

01:59:52.160 I reached down to go grab, um, sailor. And when I did like all the joy that I felt

02:00:00.160 was instantly gone. When my eye, when I laid eyes on my, the, the, the memorial bracelet.

02:00:10.960 And, uh, after that, I threw them away and I said, I'd never wear them again.

02:00:17.400 And the one thing I know for certain is that there, you know, any amount of joy that I lose

02:00:27.840 because of my teammates, there's no chance they would have wanted that.

02:00:31.900 That's right.

02:00:33.100 They, uh, you know, they, they, they died so that we could all do this, right? Like they died

02:00:39.760 so that I could live the life that I can. They died so you can live the life that you can.

02:00:43.480 And, uh, they died so that we can all go out and live a life. And, and I just believe that

02:00:49.900 any day that I don't make the most of the day and I don't enjoy it and I don't soak it up and I

02:00:56.180 don't appreciate it. I'm doing nothing, but, but spitting on their sacrifices. You know, my obligation

02:01:02.260 to them, uh, is to go out and live a life that's worthy of their sacrifices. And, and that, that,

02:01:09.900 that's what, that's what I try to do.

02:01:12.780 I know you had the opportunity to go visit ground zero and the site of the twin towers,

02:01:19.320 uh, with another Marine. And when you were there, somebody, an iron worker, I guess,

02:01:25.540 handed you a silver marker and you had the chance to write on a girder.

02:01:30.020 Yeah.

02:01:30.380 Can you tell us what you wrote?

02:01:33.660 Yeah. So this was kind of cool. Like right after the ceremony, uh, right after the medal

02:01:38.560 of honor ceremony, I came to New York and I, uh, and, and so, you know, they were giving

02:01:43.380 us a tour of the world trade center or the new world trade center. And, you know, they

02:01:48.040 were still building it. And I looked over at this, one of the iron workers was a Marine.

02:01:52.220 And I said, Hey man, like I want to go up to the top. And, uh, he said, well, can you

02:01:59.120 climb a ladder? And I was like, well, yeah, of course. And so we kind of bounced off from

02:02:03.520 the tour and, and, uh, climbed this ladder and he climbed me all the way up to the top

02:02:08.600 of this thing. Literally, I was standing on top of the floor that they were on and it was

02:02:13.020 just, it was just steel going up, you know, as like, there was nothing above me. And it was

02:02:19.220 such a cool moment. And, uh, you know, I wrote, I wrote FTWGA on the, uh, on, on the, the iron

02:02:29.560 and it stood for those who gave off. And, uh, a cool part to follow onto that story is, is,

02:02:36.920 uh, after it was completed, I came down and went up to the top and got out and, you know,

02:02:44.360 you know, the, uh, you know, the, the tower that's on top of it. It's like the, the

02:02:49.200 that it's on. So it's on top of the world, the new world trade center. So I looked at

02:02:53.760 the, it was another guy who was there at that time. I don't, I don't think it was the same

02:02:57.660 guy, but I asked him, I said, Hey, uh, I want to, where's the highest point on this,

02:03:05.000 on this that sign. And he said, well, we signed the, uh, the lightning rod on top. We signed

02:03:11.940 it before they put it up there. And I said, well, I, uh, I want to go, I want to sign

02:03:18.780 it. And he said, he handed me a vest, like one of their, their safety harnesses. And

02:03:24.800 he said, well, the only way you can get there is if you climb that ladder and it's over 300

02:03:28.160 feet tall. And so I spent the next four hours, uh, climbing the ladder all the way up. And

02:03:36.200 so I climbed all the way to the top above those lights that flash. I climbed all the way up.

02:03:41.300 I got, I got videos and pictures and I, uh, I signed the lightning rod and I put all my

02:03:46.620 teammates names on the lightning rod. I wrote this quote on the, on the bottom of it. And

02:03:52.800 I just said, you know, let this tower, um, represent, you know, what we are and what we'll

02:03:58.400 come back as, uh, you know, to any of our enemies that try to challenge us.

02:04:04.220 Wow. What we are and what we'll come back as. And that's, that's where your story is now,

02:04:10.920 how you've come back after having given all on behalf of a grateful nation. Thank you for

02:04:17.400 your service. Thank you for telling your story. And thank you for leading the life you have thus

02:04:22.300 far. So many more great, great chapters to come. It's obvious. And we're lucky to have you. You're

02:04:28.060 a national treasure. Please keep talking and please keep reaching out and please don't ever let yourself

02:04:33.360 get too low without calling. Cause we're all here for you.

02:04:36.540 No, thank you all so much. I really appreciate you. Wow. What a guy, what a man, that story is so

02:04:45.520 moving. It's like, it's hard to believe we go about our days and things like that happen. And

02:04:50.240 men like that are walking around and we don't think about them or it, right? Like we, we worry about

02:04:56.060 such minutia. We get ourselves worked up over such nonsense and you've got real live men like Dakota

02:05:02.160 Meyer there available to talk about his experiences and life lessons. And you haven't tapped into it.

02:05:07.840 I'm so glad that he led us today. And I'm honored to be able to bring you a guy like that this Memorial

02:05:13.420 day weekend. I hope you think about him. I hope you think about those who did not survive the battle

02:05:19.020 of Ganjigal and, and all of our lost service personnel in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. And those that came

02:05:24.800 before those who died for our freedom, right? For our freedom, have a wonderful, wonderful weekend.

02:05:35.180 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 27, 2022

Running Directly Into the Fight, Honoring Those We've Lost, and Fatherhood, with Dakota Meyer ｜ Ep. 331

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