The Megyn Kelly Show - SCOTUS Leaker Investigation Fails, Baldwin Charges, and Idaho Latest, with Ilya Shapiro, Viva Frei, Brian Entin, and James Fitzgerald ｜ Ep. 476

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00:00:02.860 Someone is trying to frame us.

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00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.820 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.480 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Friday.

00:00:46.080 A big day for legal news.

00:00:48.780 Whoa.

00:00:49.680 In just a little bit, we're going to be digging into

00:00:51.660 the Alec Baldwin involuntary manslaughter charge

00:00:54.360 connected to that movie set shooting.

00:00:55.880 The prosecutors are speaking out, I have to say,

00:00:58.500 in an extraordinary way.

00:01:00.660 Detailing exactly why they charged him

00:01:03.020 and what they think about the strength of their case.

00:01:06.100 And now all the defense lawyers are speaking out as well.

00:01:08.220 The defense lawyer for Alec Baldwin,

00:01:10.220 for Hannah Gutierrez-Reed,

00:01:11.860 the armorer,

00:01:12.980 and for the first assistant director

00:01:14.980 who has pleaded guilty

00:01:16.660 to a lesser charge than involuntary manslaughter.

00:01:20.040 Basically negligence with a gun.

00:01:22.400 And we'll give you all those reactions.

00:01:24.240 Plus the somewhat bizarre reaction now

00:01:26.120 from the family of the victim,

00:01:28.060 Helena Hutchins.

00:01:29.240 We'll get to all of that.

00:01:30.580 There's also a series of new developments

00:01:32.280 in the Idaho murder case.

00:01:33.860 A lot has come in on that.

00:01:35.040 We're going to bring you those as well

00:01:36.060 with a reporter who's been all over it.

00:01:38.380 And then a former FBI analyst who you know well.

00:01:41.700 He helped solve a Unabomber case, among others.

00:01:43.940 He's got fascinating thoughts on this.

00:01:45.680 And we're going to get to all of it.

00:01:47.020 We begin, however,

00:01:47.820 with the unbelievable news out of the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:01:50.520 What a disgrace.

00:01:52.900 This is a disgrace.

00:01:54.720 After months and months of supposed investigation

00:01:56.900 and even a threat against a justice's life,

00:02:00.920 the Oye, Oye, Oye Marshall failed

00:02:04.080 to figure out who leaked the draft of the Dobbs' opinion,

00:02:07.220 or so they would have us believe.

00:02:09.420 But her team did uncover a series of flaws

00:02:11.480 with the way the court handles information.

00:02:13.980 That, too, is rather shocking.

00:02:15.820 Here to discuss it all is Ilya Shapiro,

00:02:18.220 Director of Constitutional Studies at the Manhattan Institute.

00:02:21.680 He's also the author of Supreme Disorder,

00:02:24.420 Judicial Nominations,

00:02:25.420 and the Politics of America's Highest Court.

00:02:28.600 Ilya, welcome back.

00:02:29.480 So glad you could be here today.

00:02:31.640 Good to be back with you.

00:02:33.240 I have to say, I don't believe any of this.

00:02:35.140 I don't believe that they were not capable

00:02:37.680 of identifying the leaker.

00:02:39.600 And if I'm wrong and that is true,

00:02:42.500 it is an absolute disgrace and black mark on this court. 1.00

00:02:46.660 How pathetic. 0.99

00:02:48.840 So that's my off-the-cuff tape. 0.99

00:02:51.940 Tell us how you really feel, Megan.

00:02:54.580 I covered the high court as a reporter for over three years.

00:03:00.280 I sat in on justice, argument after argument after argument,

00:03:03.840 and did tons of reporting for Fox News on them.

00:03:05.520 I practiced law for 10 years.

00:03:07.060 I've got some familiarity with this body and how austere it is.

00:03:10.620 And I don't believe that they're incapable

00:03:12.220 of getting to the bottom of this.

00:03:13.440 And I believe that if they really wanted to,

00:03:15.860 they would have farmed it off to the FBI.

00:03:17.760 What they've done instead is take the word of this marshal,

00:03:21.860 who knows nothing about investigating in any meaningful way,

00:03:25.100 and then to give her cover, brought in Michael Chertoff,

00:03:27.620 former Homeland Security Chair Chief under Bush,

00:03:30.220 to say, yeah, I can't see anything more they could do,

00:03:34.840 which is a fig leaf.

00:03:36.300 Get the FBI involved.

00:03:37.880 Put somebody under oath.

00:03:39.080 Get real answers.

00:03:41.040 They don't seem to have an appetite for doing it.

00:03:43.780 And it also doesn't appear they even bothered to interview the justices,

00:03:47.680 though that's unclear.

00:03:48.980 So what do you think?

00:03:50.660 Yeah, that last point is real.

00:03:53.160 It didn't mention it,

00:03:54.840 and it mentioned a lot of the things that they did.

00:03:57.100 So it sounds like they did not interview the justices,

00:04:00.460 which isn't to suggest that it's likely that one of the justices was the leaker,

00:04:04.320 but maybe they could have some insight or, you know,

00:04:07.540 say something that could gain a lead or something like that.

00:04:12.360 But it seems like this is not a failure as much of the investigation.

00:04:18.320 I might disagree a little bit with you there.

00:04:22.380 You know,

00:04:22.780 I was actually pleasantly surprised to see that they did look at phone records,

00:04:27.080 electronic records, interviewing 100 people.

00:04:30.220 Now, again, raising lots of questions.

00:04:32.140 Why would nearly 100 people have access to sensitive drafts?

00:04:35.620 But that's a future prophylactic measure that hopefully they're putting in now.

00:04:39.980 But it seems like there's no way to record who prints out sensitive drafts,

00:04:44.360 who takes them home, all of that sort of thing.

00:04:47.140 It really revealed a lot of holes in the document tracking security operations in the court.

00:04:55.060 The investigation, you know, maybe they should have talked to some of the spouses and boyfriends,

00:05:00.140 girlfriends that were that the clerks and others talked to about the draft.

00:05:05.880 That that might be a little hole in violation of the code of conduct.

00:05:11.400 But otherwise, they did have everyone sign affidavits under penalty of perjury,

00:05:17.340 under penalty of violating federal law,

00:05:19.160 that they were not the source of the leak,

00:05:22.080 that they did not do anything to to get that draft out to where it shouldn't be.

00:05:28.240 Which means that at this point, to me, you know,

00:05:31.880 despite those holes in the in the record keeping or because of them,

00:05:36.080 it's most likely that someone used old school technology,

00:05:40.580 not hacking or anything like that,

00:05:42.860 but burner phones and dead drops and or just carelessness,

00:05:46.760 leaving a draft somewhere either inside or outside the court where a member of the public

00:05:52.420 or a journalist or anybody could could find it.

00:05:55.040 You know, that could well be their journalists roaming the Supreme Court.

00:05:58.100 So one of these things was left out.

00:05:59.980 Maybe a political reporter picked that up.

00:06:02.140 Definitely disappointing that after eight months, we still don't know.

00:06:06.220 Not a chance that happened accidentally.

00:06:07.740 No way.

00:06:08.220 Just so happened to be the reversal of Roe versus Wade in the Supreme Court history.

00:06:11.880 That was the one decision that, oh, whoopsie, somebody didn't mind it properly.

00:06:15.520 No, that that didn't happen, period.

00:06:17.740 I don't believe that.

00:06:18.620 And I never will.

00:06:19.680 However, here's what they say about the computers and phones.

00:06:21.760 Yes, they had them sign a one line affidavit under penalty of perjury,

00:06:25.560 affirming that he or she did not disclose the Dobbs draft opinion.

00:06:29.420 OK, one line.

00:06:30.300 That is not the same as having somebody sitting across from an FBI agent

00:06:33.560 where, you know, everything you say, if it's a lie,

00:06:36.180 will be used against you in a criminal proceeding, potentially.

00:06:39.520 Everything you say has to be truthful.

00:06:41.880 They say the investigators collected court issued laptops and mobile devices

00:06:49.060 from all personnel who had access to the draft opinion.

00:06:52.520 Now, I don't know whether court issued applies both to laptops and to mobile devices,

00:06:59.980 or if court issued only applies to laptops.

00:07:03.280 And they also looked at people's personal mobile devices.

00:07:07.540 But if they didn't get these clerks personal phones, this is a joke.

00:07:12.300 It's a joke.

00:07:13.460 Why didn't I get an affidavit that it tested that you didn't have a burner phone,

00:07:17.060 that you've given full access to your personal phone and any professional phone

00:07:20.460 to the investigator seeking answers in this case and also your personal laptop?

00:07:24.840 Like what?

00:07:25.800 This was so prophylactic.

00:07:27.540 Ilya, I can't believe you're defending it.

00:07:30.680 Well, look, I think that whoever did this took steps to cover themselves up.

00:07:36.220 And I'm not an expert in forensic investigations, digital or otherwise.

00:07:39.240 There are certainly gaps there.

00:07:40.440 But there's I don't think getting the FBI involved necessarily would have fixed those.

00:07:44.900 I mean, the FBI itself as an institution is in some disrepute for all sorts of reasons right now as well.

00:07:50.440 So there certainly were failures in this investigation.

00:07:54.800 But, you know, if indeed they didn't look, you know, chase down personal devices as well.

00:08:00.440 It seems like, well, to get to a personal device, you would have had to send it somehow or access it from a court device.

00:08:06.460 But it says that those court devices did not keep records, apparently, of who sent emails where or access drafts.

00:08:13.660 So it may well look that there are definitely no investigation is perfect.

00:08:17.700 This one does not look that way.

00:08:18.940 But I think there are bigger gaps in how the drafts and the information is transmitted in the first place,

00:08:29.180 such that even a perfect investigation based because so much of the security in the past has been based on norms and trust rather than these kinds of detectable systems.

00:08:41.060 It could be that it would be impossible to detect.

00:08:44.260 I don't know. But you're right.

00:08:45.160 There are definite holes in this investigation, even though Mike Chertoff, former judge, former cabinet secretary, said that it was as thorough as could be.

00:08:54.620 That's a joke.

00:08:55.400 That's a joke.

00:08:56.320 His his little rubber stamp does absolutely nothing for me.

00:08:59.600 Get a real investigator in there, someone who knows what is is Mike Chertoff.

00:09:03.420 Does he have a long history of investigating crimes like this?

00:09:06.520 Not that I know of.

00:09:07.240 Just because he ran Homeland Security doesn't mean that's the case.

00:09:09.620 He was also a U.S. attorney. I mean, look, nobody trusts this. The left still thinks it was someone from the right.

00:09:15.220 The right still thinks it's someone from the left. Ultimately, the court is no better off for having.

00:09:19.580 In fact, it's probably worse off for having this nothing burger of a report about the investigation.

00:09:24.540 I don't think it's I don't know who whose incentive it is or to to not find the answer to this question.

00:09:31.400 So I would think that John Roberts would want a thorough investigation.

00:09:35.240 OK, but I don't agree with that. So, first of all, the leaguer could have been a justice.

00:09:38.840 Absolutely could have been a justice. We don't think so.

00:09:40.940 You and I have you know, we both had ties with the court that makes you think these justices would never cross that line.

00:09:47.240 And it's extraordinary. But given how high stakes Dobbs was and the reversal of Roe versus Wade, all bets are off.

00:09:53.700 And the fact that they didn't bother, as it appears, at least to interview the justices, one thinks they would have highlighted that had they done it.

00:10:01.220 They would have been proud to say they had done it. It it adds a shadow over the justices.

00:10:05.960 Again, it makes them even more suspicious. Why wouldn't you talk to them?

00:10:09.480 Who would have been in charge of that? That's the irony here.

00:10:11.980 That's the irony here. You're trying to protect the court's reputation.

00:10:15.920 And the negative inference from this report is that it's more likely to be a justice than we would have thought before the report came out.

00:10:25.380 So it really this again, this report is not satisfying in the least.

00:10:30.560 You call it a joke. I mean, it might be a there are holes, there are gaps.

00:10:34.620 It's unsatisfying. And as I said, it only deepens divisions, does nothing to resolve, only heightens tension.

00:10:42.420 So, you know, I doubt this is the result that John Roberts wants.

00:10:46.380 So either he himself did not direct a proper investigation or the the marshal didn't take his instruction seriously or disagree with that.

00:10:54.180 What have you. But I don't I don't know whose whose incentive it is not to have a full and thorough investigation that at least even if it doesn't detect who it is because of defects in the court's internal information security,

00:11:06.440 at least chases down as far as possible, including certainly interviews with the justices.

00:11:12.120 I think it's Chief Justice John Roberts incentive. I think he's Gail's boss.

00:11:16.860 Gail is the court clerk. Just FYI, her name is Gail Curley. 0.99

00:11:21.180 She was appointed June 21, 2021, about 53 years old.

00:11:24.760 Previous job was head of the National Security Law Division in the Army's Office of Judge Advocate General.

00:11:29.060 She's a lawyer. OK, she's a lawyer. She went to the University of Illinois College of Law.

00:11:32.960 And by the way, so is Michael Chertoff. U.S. attorney doesn't mean you're a great investigator.

00:11:36.580 Get me get an FBI agent on. Get somebody who actually investigates crime, not prosecutes it.

00:11:40.320 There's a difference. So she's not an investigator and she works for him.

00:11:45.760 That's her boss. That's her boss's boss's boss. 1.00

00:11:49.040 Chief Justice John Roberts could not be higher than Gail Curley on the power totem pole.

00:11:53.560 And so if he gave her some sort of implicit direction that this is who he wanted her to interview and not interview.

00:12:00.460 And like it could be very harmful to the court if the investigation were to nail a poor law clerk who made a terrible mistake and then ruined that person's career.

00:12:09.540 That's something to keep in mind. There are ways of telegraphing to old Gail what you want and what you don't want. 1.00

00:12:15.260 And Chief Justice John Roberts is smarter than anybody and would know exactly how to do it.

00:12:20.900 And by the way, Ilya, it could have been he could have been the leaker.

00:12:24.280 He could he could be doing this so that he doesn't get caught.

00:12:26.580 I mean, this ultimately the buck stops with him.

00:12:31.420 He is the chief justice. He directs the investigation.

00:12:33.360 He came out with a statement the day after the leak saying that there would be an investigation.

00:12:38.940 And you're right.

00:12:40.420 Again, another consequence of this ill fated, unsatisfactory report is that it it throws more shade again back at the chief justice.

00:12:52.780 But, you know, he's shown in the past that he's not the best, not the savviest political operator, regardless of his his legal acumen in terms of his kind of attacking left and right, trying to find compromises, trying to extricate the court politically.

00:13:07.940 That only gets it more looking politically.

00:13:10.580 So I don't know if he's going to get a second bite at the apple or as he sees the fallout from this where nobody's satisfied, how he's going to think about it.

00:13:19.600 But you're right. Ultimately, the failure to find the leaker is is back at his feet.

00:13:26.140 The he was one of the suspected leakers from the beginning.

00:13:29.780 A lot of people looked at him because let's not forget this opinion was leaked, I think, May 2nd and didn't come out officially, I think, till early July.

00:13:36.880 So two months before it was actually going to hit. And the opinion that they leaked was one from early February.

00:13:43.780 And it was an opinion in which five conservatives, not Chief Justice Roberts, were joining together to overrule Roe versus Wade.

00:13:51.980 And it was written by Justice Alito. That is how it ultimately turned out.

00:13:56.480 Just Chief Justice Roberts was not in that five person majority.

00:13:59.280 He wrote his own opinion. And there was speculation, only speculation, that he he had reason to leak it because he thought perhaps Kavanaugh or maybe Amy Coney Barrett might be a little squishy on joining that majority and might have misread the tea leaves to think, oh, there'll be such enormous pressure from the left, from the media, from the center on these justices not to do this, that they could be recruited over to join him.

00:14:24.060 And then there would not be a majority to overturn Roe versus Wade, which is what John Roberts wanted.

00:14:29.020 He did not want to overturn Roe. So you could really make a strong case that he had reason to have this out in the public before it was final.

00:14:37.440 I don't know if he had more of an incentive along those lines than the justices on the left, Kagan, Sotomayor and Breyer.

00:14:44.920 You know, they they they would have gone the other way entirely. His was the compromise position to try to uphold the Michigan 15 week restriction without overturning Roe, which ultimately garnered zero votes other than his own.

00:14:57.140 So it could have been. Again, we're all speculating. But the reason why we're speculating is because this report gets us no further.

00:15:04.080 I mean, I'm just shocked at the at the lack security in the first place. I'm shocked that there haven't been more leaks.

00:15:11.500 You know, Bush v. Gore, Citizens United, all of these huge cases that we've had in recent times.

00:15:16.980 None of them leaked. And this one did. So could you believe they don't have a printer log?

00:15:21.400 I mean, every law firm I ever worked in, you have to type and not to mention even at NBC, you had to type in your own little number before you could print a doc, any document so that there was always a record of who hit print on this.

00:15:37.840 The U.S. Supreme Court doesn't have that. They don't even have it for the people who are accessing the draft opinions. It's insanity.

00:15:44.540 You know, that leads me to believe that it wasn't some sort of common court printer in in the staff area, that it was indeed one of the chambers, a court, a clerk printing it out from a chambers printer, which wouldn't necessarily be expected to have one of those logs, although I'm sure now they'll put them in place and then print it out.

00:16:00.940 And the leak to Politico, it's I think it's more likely than not that it was actually a hard copy that was passed along than some sort of email forwarding or something.

00:16:09.200 And obviously, once you have a printout out there, that's that's impossible to track. You can take it home in your briefcase.

00:16:14.540 Here's the thing that's really that it's one of the most galling. So they bring in they bring in Chertoff. OK, again, former Homeland Security chief, former judge, and they ask him to assess the marshal's investigation.

00:16:29.140 Fig leaf, fig leaf. Who goes to Mike Chertoff? I mean, honestly, I don't get it.

00:16:33.900 He has advised this is according to the 23 page report that the that the court released covering its butt on this.

00:16:41.740 He has advised that the marshal undertook a thorough investigation.

00:16:45.500 And at this time, quote, I cannot identify any additional useful investigative measures not already undertaken or underway.

00:16:54.540 Why? Why? Why is that where this lands, Ilya? Why isn't it?

00:16:59.900 We will do everything within our power to take the next step.

00:17:03.880 We will now bring in the FBI, which we can see from our windows inside the court, which would be happy to assist us.

00:17:11.720 I realize they've been controversial law, law enforcement, this kind of thing.

00:17:16.220 That's their bailiwick. That's their forte. It's when they're doing their domestic intelligence investigations on the rest of us that we get problems.

00:17:22.780 But this this the FBI can do. We're going to have a former FBI agent on later the show.

00:17:27.420 And I'm going to ask him this. But why stop at Chertoff?

00:17:32.540 Gail did everything she could. That that stinks.

00:17:38.420 They figure they needed some outsider to put an imprimatur to to put a stamp of approval on the investigation.

00:17:47.120 Chertoff's about as good a person as you make if you're going for one person to do that.

00:17:50.800 He's a interrepublicary administration, but sort of, you know, seen as as as level headed and sort of a moderate figure.

00:17:59.980 I don't know. I mean, maybe they could have gotten a counsel of former U.S.

00:18:03.080 attorneys appointed by different presidents. That's that's sort of beside the point.

00:18:08.160 But or get an investigator, get an investigator, not a lawyer, not a judge who sat there in robes and not a guy who's basically a top administrator.

00:18:17.560 Get somebody who knows how to cross examine witnesses.

00:18:22.140 I mean, here's what's going to happen next. And there's the one glimmer of hope.

00:18:25.220 The House is going to investigate this. Thank God. Thank God. Thank God.

00:18:28.780 Republicans won the House. They're going to investigate this.

00:18:32.240 And Jonathan Turley had an interesting piece now, a fellow lawyer and George Washington University law professor saying now it's going to get interesting because they have subpoena power.

00:18:41.220 And they will call in these some eighty three people that they've interviewed in this investigation, maybe more law clerks and so on.

00:18:48.600 That's temporary staff as well as permanent staff who were interviewed and they'll put them under oath and they could offer everybody immunity.

00:18:55.660 He's making this point. And once you have immunity, you must testify.

00:18:59.660 You can no longer assert your Fifth Amendment right not to testify because you've got immunity and ask everybody.

00:19:04.260 Did you do it? Did you do it? Did you do it?

00:19:05.920 Now, that that could take us someplace. I I would love to see it.

00:19:11.080 It seems like I mean, that that would be a good step.

00:19:15.260 And for that matter, they don't need to necessarily televise the stuff.

00:19:18.480 They're really serious about getting to the bottom of it.

00:19:20.980 You don't need public hearings. You can have just like the intelligence committees do on Capitol Hill, the only ones that are productive.

00:19:26.800 So it doesn't become a TV circus. But you could do that investigation behind closed doors led by House Judiciary.

00:19:32.660 Absolutely. And one other point, Megan. So they interviewed by the report, 97 people, 126 interviews.

00:19:40.600 So that means some people they decided they needed to reinterview, which is interesting.

00:19:44.480 And also that language that you quoted at the outset, that they couldn't find the leaker by a preponderance of the evidence, meaning no one that they could say it's more likely than not is the leaker.

00:19:54.940 But it does mean that they do have some suspects. So maybe it's worth pursuing, you know, whoever those suspects are, see if they can get those percentage of that percentage of being convinced that they're the leaker up from.

00:20:08.200 Oh, well, there's a 20 percent chance up to that 51 percent or or whatever.

00:20:12.600 So it does seem like there is room for further investigation, contrary to what to what Chertoff certified.

00:20:20.100 This is so upsetting. I it's the justices lives are on the line.

00:20:27.100 They they are. You know, I mean, that that's what Alito came out and said that some of the other justices have said that that that this truly could have led to an assassination attempt.

00:20:37.060 Could have seen multiple. I mean, we had the thing with Kavanaugh, right, where the guy got he was self-reported.

00:20:42.940 He was going to assassinate him. Got called.

00:20:45.800 Because if this is the new norm where you can get away with this, where there's really no consequences.

00:20:50.600 And this Turley was making this point to the main the main deterrent you have is the consequences of such such a thing.

00:20:56.940 If you're going to breach the ethics, you're not an ethical person.

00:20:59.120 So what's the main deterrent we have to prevent it from happening in the future?

00:21:03.000 We have to throw the book at whoever did this. We have to find them. We have to throw the book at them.

00:21:07.060 And now we don't have that. And there's a shoulder shrug.

00:21:11.360 Gil couldn't do it. And shirt off, gave it to his blessing.

00:21:14.700 It's not. We're sicking the FBI on you and they will.

00:21:19.020 They'll get all your phone calls. They will get all your emails.

00:21:21.500 They will look at all the search history on your home phone and your home computer.

00:21:25.160 Right. Like that's scary. And it also happens to lead to results.

00:21:30.880 So we're in a new era and it's dangerous. I'll I'll I'll ask you about one other thing.

00:21:35.420 Trump on Truth Social Social is demanding that they arrest the reporter, the publisher and the editor at Politico.

00:21:43.220 I'm going to assume you agree with me that that's insane and is not the way to go about this.

00:21:49.460 Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:50.800 I mean, you would hope that that reporters have some compunction about, you know, before they they they print anything that they get their hands on whenever they get it.

00:21:59.740 But, yeah, there are First Amendment and other protections for reporters not to disclose sources.

00:22:07.180 And reporters have gone to jail, you know, waited out contempt charges.

00:22:12.040 I don't think that's the way to go. It's it's from the it's from the supply side, not not the demand side.

00:22:17.100 It's indeed the consequences for whether it be a clerk, a justice, a staff member.

00:22:22.660 There have to be professional consequences. And by the way, in all this time with the demonstrations that I don't know if they're still ongoing,

00:22:29.120 but for many, many months they were ongoing in front of justices houses, no, no prosecutions for that, even though that violated both Maryland and Virginia law.

00:22:39.480 Yeah. Right. A couple of thoughts, just random from Twitter.

00:22:45.700 This is somebody who tweeted that their handle is at end wokeness.

00:22:50.040 They tracked down every grandma that took selfies at the Capitol, but they want us to believe they can't identify the Supreme Court leaker.

00:22:56.020 Pretty good. This is from at Life News HQ.

00:23:00.060 The Dobbs leak led to the attempted assassination of a Supreme Court justice, and they still can't find the leaker.

00:23:05.200 It is absolutely stunning. The left and the right, highly critical of this.

00:23:09.080 Even Lawrence Tribe, definitely of the left, Harvard Law professor, the nemesis of our pal, Alan Dershowitz,

00:23:16.400 refers to the oddity of pretending the justices are not protecting the leader, the leaker, by not calling the FBI.

00:23:25.640 There's outrage on on all sides of this. Ted Cruz calling it deeply troubling and going beyond that.

00:23:31.180 Josh Hurley this morning with some very harsh tweets for the for this investigation.

00:23:35.780 This is not over. This is not over. And I hope the House of the House.

00:23:39.080 Republicans get to the bottom of it.

00:23:41.740 Ilya, thank you so much. Always appreciate hearing your voice.

00:23:45.840 Thank you, Megan. Have a good weekend.

00:23:48.060 You too. Wow. What are your thoughts on this? Will you email me or call in?

00:23:52.300 We should take some calls. We have time today. We have a jam packed show, but I would love, love, love to hear from you.

00:23:56.640 I'm pissed. OK. And I never use that word. I don't really use that P word much. 0.93

00:24:00.760 My mom doesn't like that word. Also, she told me to stop swearing so much.

00:24:03.860 OK, coming up, we're going to learn about the involuntary manslaughter charges Alec Baldwin is now facing and what the prosecutors are saying on the details behind that charge.

00:24:14.200 After more than a year, Alec Baldwin is facing charges of involuntary manslaughter in the Rust movie set shooting.

00:24:26.660 Do the prosecutors actually have a case?

00:24:28.840 Viva Fry is a lawyer and a YouTuber.

00:24:31.040 He joins me to discuss the very latest.

00:24:33.300 Viva, welcome back.

00:24:34.100 I have to say you were on in November predicting what might happen in this case and you nailed it.

00:24:38.800 Nailed it.

00:24:39.400 Look, I hedged my bets a little bit like a lawyer, you know, by saying if he were not charged, I would be shocked and flabbergasted at the politics coming into play.

00:24:47.640 And just so your viewers know, I'm a Canadian Quebec commercial litigator.

00:24:52.100 So no expertise in New Mexico criminal law.

00:24:54.840 But I've been following this story from day one when it happened, when I was in Virginia, about to go on Tim Pool and the news broke and followed the saga ever since.

00:25:02.860 Wow. Well, I have to say I you you did me one better because I was thinking, look, it's more of a civil case than a criminal case as far as Alec Baldwin is concerned, because even though a lot of us don't like Alec Baldwin for his politics and he's kind of nasty, he's beating up a lot of people all the time.

00:25:21.140 That it was clearly an accident.

00:25:22.960 I mean, clearly he did not intend to shoot anybody, but the prosecutors are saying, yes, it was an accident.

00:25:30.920 They're not claiming otherwise. But it was a reckless accident.

00:25:33.660 It was it. It rises to the level of recklessness under the criminal law to where he should serve some time for it.

00:25:40.560 And as Dan Abrams was saying yesterday, not just any time, but what they've charged him with could get him up to five years mandatory.

00:25:47.940 Yeah, that's it. A lot of lawyers and I think lawyers who have a good conscience don't like these mandatory minimum sentencing for for these types of reasons.

00:25:55.800 It leaves no discretion to the judge. It can be the source of some sort of jury nullification where they say we think he's guilty, but we're not willing to to convict him so that he serves a mandatory minimum five year.

00:26:08.780 And just to back it up a little bit, it's a situation where you look at it and say it's an accident.

00:26:13.620 It's a tragic accident. But you don't get into circumstances where people get shot and killed on a movie set and think that, you know, it's not going to be somehow criminal in here.

00:26:23.460 He didn't pull the trigger on purpose, although he denied pulling the trigger.

00:26:26.960 But this doesn't happen if the trigger doesn't get pulled. He didn't put the live rounds in the gun, presumably.

00:26:31.980 He didn't know they were there, presumably how they got there. Who knows?

00:26:35.180 Maybe there's some shared criminal responsibility as well.

00:26:38.320 But people don't get shot and die on movie sets without there being some at the very least highly likely criminal element in it, if only negligence.

00:26:47.460 But what he's what he's facing, it's not just involuntary manslaughter, but there's a I just lost the word there, an aggravating factor.

00:26:56.460 Yeah, an enhancement.

00:26:57.680 An enhancement. Yeah, sorry. Of when it involves a firearm, which can carry minimum five years.

00:27:03.660 And that's serious, serious stuff, especially given Baldwin's age.

00:27:07.380 Mm hmm. Well, I mean, the thought of Alec Baldwin going to mandatory prison for five years is kind of stunning.

00:27:13.560 So the prosecutors went on a little press tour to explain why they did this.

00:27:18.140 You've got the main prosecutor who's the D.A. in New Mexico.

00:27:22.380 And then you've got the woman she brought in as sort of a special prosecutor because they were outmanned in pursuing these charges against Alec Baldwin, against Hannah Gutierrez, Reed, the armorer.

00:27:32.520 And then they cut a deal with the first assistant director who he's he did a charge lower.

00:27:37.320 It's something like criminal handling or negligent handling of a firearm.

00:27:41.460 So they went on a press tour yesterday.

00:27:43.220 And among others, they spoke with Judge Jeanine, my old pal from Fox News.

00:27:46.300 Here's a bit of their explanation.

00:27:48.900 We definitely believe he pulled the trigger.

00:27:51.040 The FBI lab report confirms that.

00:27:54.480 So definitely the trigger was pulled.

00:27:57.320 All right.

00:27:57.620 So his statement is not correct under any circumstance.

00:28:01.880 We don't believe it is.

00:28:03.280 Mr. Baldwin had a duty at the base level to never hold a gun and point it at a person while pulling the trigger.

00:28:10.260 But he also had a duty as an actor and a producer on that set to have the bullets checked or to check them himself to make sure that they weren't live.

00:28:18.440 We believe Baldwin, as a producer, knows everything that goes on on this set.

00:28:22.820 And so, yeah, there was a lot of problems.

00:28:24.880 There was a lot of there are a couple accidental discharges.

00:28:28.420 There was a lot of safety concerns that were brought to the attention of management.

00:28:33.560 And and he did nothing about it.

00:28:35.560 So there were just this was a loose and reckless scene where safety was compromised just to save money.

00:28:45.720 So a lot in there.

00:28:47.280 What's your takeaway listening to that?

00:28:49.320 Well, first of all, you know, the press tour, I don't see anything nefarious in it.

00:28:53.720 This is a big, big charge against a big celebrity in a highly politicized environment.

00:28:58.160 They have to go out and show that they have the grounds, the justification to do it.

00:29:03.780 I don't know if you saw Joy Behar on The View this morning.

00:29:07.480 I think it's the the the prosecutor that was called in who's a Republican and Joy Behar suggesting there might be politics to the prosecution because Alec Baldwin has been a target for Republicans.

00:29:18.640 They need to do it. They need to flesh out detail.

00:29:22.400 What are the the justifications for actually pressing criminal charges against Baldwin?

00:29:27.260 I don't think it needs much of a justification.

00:29:29.560 And I'm going back to my initial assessment of this situation.

00:29:33.280 The prediction I made a while back as to what actually happened.

00:29:36.240 You know, you hear the prosecutors or the district attorney, whatever their title is, talking about how there had been previous discharges on set to emphasize the negligence of safety on the set.

00:29:47.200 And they're right.

00:29:47.660 But but the previous discharges were blanks.

00:29:50.500 And so or or or dummy rounds, you know, it was not an accidental discharge of a live round.

00:29:57.220 And, you know, my theory is Alec is known to have a temper, even from his early interviews with George Stephanopoulos and him describing what happened, his roadside interviews in Vermont or wherever they were.

00:30:08.760 So, you know, he was describing a situation where it sounded like he was being told what to do by a director of photography who's not supposed to be giving direct instructions to a grade A actor like Alec.

00:30:18.280 And because there had been prior discharges with no injury, no foul, you know, of blanks.

00:30:22.920 Maybe he pulled the trigger on purpose, thinking it would just be a loud pop.

00:30:26.220 It would scare the assistant.

00:30:27.480 It would it would scare the director of photography.

00:30:29.260 She'd stop bossing him around and they would go on.

00:30:31.600 And it's clear he had to have pulled the trigger, whether or not pulling the hammer back, like he explained, while compressing the trigger could have also allowed the hammer to go back and, you know, set the bullet off.

00:30:44.300 It's another argument.

00:30:45.060 It's quite clear he pulled the trigger.

00:30:46.920 And then the only question is going to be why and how.

00:30:49.620 Yeah, he clearly he's going to lose on that argument that he didn't pull the trigger.

00:30:53.700 The jury is going to believe the FBI over Alec Baldwin.

00:30:57.200 And then your own instincts, of course, will tell you a gun goes off when you pull the trigger, in particular, this kind of gun.

00:31:02.740 So he's going to lose on that.

00:31:04.560 But there was some interesting stuff in there.

00:31:07.500 A duty to detect whether the bullets were dummies or live rounds.

00:31:11.760 Please.

00:31:12.680 No, no, that's not going to work.

00:31:15.060 That that even the armorer clearly couldn't do that or failed in her in her attempts to do that.

00:31:23.260 The dummy rounds, their whole job is to look exactly like a real bullet.

00:31:28.280 And I've talked to gun experts on this.

00:31:30.640 If you shake the one, you can hear stuff shaking around inside.

00:31:34.700 And if you shake the other one, you hear nothing.

00:31:36.940 I can't remember which is which, but that's how they determine the dummy rounds with less gunpowder so that there's less of a discharge, from my understanding.

00:31:45.420 But it's a weird thing.

00:31:46.800 But let me just finish my point.

00:31:48.400 Let me just finish my point.

00:31:49.440 So you you think they're going to convince a jury that the armorer who specializes in guns and ammo screwed that up, wasn't able to do it.

00:31:59.120 Got confused, whatever.

00:32:00.340 But Alec Baldwin, he could have taken each bullet out and shaken it and totally.

00:32:05.160 No, I I can make a case for negligence, negligence against Alec Baldwin. 0.91

00:32:09.140 It doesn't include telling live rounds from dummies.

00:32:12.680 Yeah, well, when they're describing that to me, it sort of sounds like they're confusing or confounding Alec's role as a producer to oversee safety versus Alec Baldwin.

00:32:22.440 Well, they say they have two points.

00:32:23.980 That's A and B.

00:32:24.620 I'm on A right now with you, which is the alleged duty to separate the lives from the dummies. 0.88

00:32:28.800 And then I want to do B.

00:32:30.580 Well, when I listen to that, it sounds to me like they're just sort of amalgamating his role as a producer with his role as an individual.

00:32:35.960 Like as a producer, he had he had the obligation to ensure safety on set.

00:32:40.060 And so not necessarily that Alec Baldwin himself had to shake each round to make sure it was a dummy versus alive.

00:32:46.660 I think they mean at large said that they said in one of their interviews, he needed to do it or he needed to see somebody do it in front of him.

00:32:55.080 OK, I mean, so they said, look, that's not going to be the evidence that they're going to need to induce at the trial.

00:32:59.860 The bottom line is, was it was it negligent for him to discharge a firearm, knowing it's a real firearm in the direction of a human?

00:33:07.300 And if his defense is I thought they were dummy rounds, well, it's still not much of a defense.

00:33:11.040 And then the question is going to be, how did the live rounds get there?

00:33:13.240 What they what the prosecutors also discovered or they've stated now is that he actually had live rounds in his in his holster or in that that belt.

00:33:22.240 I think it's called the belt.

00:33:23.200 I am also not a firearm aficionado, but I've learned a few things here.

00:33:27.660 But no, I think they're saying certain things which are just to, you know, do part of the press tour.

00:33:32.520 He should have known, yada, yada.

00:33:33.780 But I think they're speaking at large as a producer, as someone overseeing the production of this of this movie.

00:33:38.680 He had the overall obligation to make sure it was safe.

00:33:41.480 Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that.

00:33:42.880 Now we're now we're on B.

00:33:44.920 You know, the set was a mess.

00:33:46.620 There were at least six live rounds on set.

00:33:48.980 How did they get there?

00:33:50.600 You know, who were their safety oversights and so on, the accidental discharges and so on.

00:33:56.820 And there's going to be more evidence.

00:33:58.360 I happen to know this for a fact.

00:33:59.540 I've seen some of it, that there's going to be more evidence that safety concerns were raised and ignored by those in charge.

00:34:06.700 That's and the prosecutors have said that he had a duty as a producer to make sure that didn't happen.

00:34:14.200 He was a producer.

00:34:14.700 But the reality is you get slapped that producer label just to make you look good, just to be sort of glorious.

00:34:23.120 And then you get that label if you're really the producer, if you're the workhorse on the on.

00:34:28.240 And from what we're hearing, he has a good argument.

00:34:32.860 He was just getting the glory.

00:34:34.160 And by the way, I happen to have the same agent as Alec Baldwin for a long time.

00:34:40.260 And at various points, he he was negotiating various deals for me in which I was going to produce this or going to be a producer on that.

00:34:47.180 They never came to fruition.

00:34:48.600 But like, that's his thing is to get you named as a producer.

00:34:51.560 And I'm very sure if he was doing that for me, this was Alec Baldwin's case, too.

00:34:55.980 So they're going to have to prove that it was more than just a producer in name only.

00:35:00.320 Well, I'm not sure that that element is going to come in in terms of his individual responsibility.

00:35:07.020 At the end of the day, yeah, say I was a I was a producer for title.

00:35:10.620 I was not a functional producer.

00:35:13.020 I didn't have anything to do about the ins and outs.

00:35:15.660 That's not really going to be where on a criminal individual level, the responsibility is going to lie or the argument is going to be made.

00:35:22.320 The bottom line is I think we can actually just probably set aside what title of producer he was.

00:35:28.040 Bottom line, at the end of the day, he's in this set.

00:35:30.320 He claims to have had extensive experience with real guns, real bullets.

00:35:35.400 Now you're going to like I'm going off of what the prosecution is saying their case is based on.

00:35:40.980 Like I'm with you and I could have had this discussion two days ago before they spoke out.

00:35:45.460 But now they're detailing why they charged him.

00:35:47.980 And I'm what I'm saying to you is this stuff isn't very persuasive.

00:35:52.100 Their arguments might not be persuasive, but this isn't the trial.

00:35:54.580 The bottom line, he pulled the trigger and it caused the death.

00:35:58.200 I mean, they're adding that's the case.

00:36:01.080 That's the case.

00:36:01.780 Now, they might be adding extra fluff.

00:36:03.440 And this is why, incidentally, less is more oftentimes in law because you add you add extraneous stuff, which might they're not going to need to prove what type of producer he was at the criminal trial.

00:36:12.560 Bottom line, he pulled the trigger.

00:36:14.860 There was a bullet in it.

00:36:15.780 How did it get there?

00:36:17.000 Whether it was if he did it on purpose.

00:36:18.920 I mean, look, set everything aside.

00:36:20.840 If it was accidentally put into there and a jury comes to the conclusion that he had no, you know, he's innocent because he could not have known.

00:36:28.920 Well, then who put the bullet there and then they're going to, you know, be found guilty on the negligence, involuntary manslaughter, negligence, whatever.

00:36:36.200 But that's what they're going to prove.

00:36:37.100 So they do a tour.

00:36:37.740 They say a little more than they need to.

00:36:38.920 And then it causes some confusion.

00:36:40.240 The bottom line, he there were safety issues, accidental discharges.

00:36:45.420 He says, I know never to point a gun at a person.

00:36:48.220 He says, I know never to pull the trigger in his Stephanopoulos interview, because even if you do it once or twice, it damages the firing pin.

00:36:55.000 I know all these things. And yet I pointed the gun at an individual.

00:36:58.920 I obviously pulled the trigger.

00:37:00.580 An individual is dead now.

00:37:01.800 And I defied all of the own my own safety rules that I specifically said I knew in the context of a dangerous set where there had been accidental discharges, where we're walking off the set.

00:37:12.780 And I'm innocent.

00:37:14.120 I mean, he's got a big, big problem.

00:37:16.860 And then the only question is going to be, I don't know how they get out of the the enhancement because it was committed with a firearm.

00:37:23.340 I don't know how they even get out of the enhancement.

00:37:25.800 He's got a plea.

00:37:27.200 He's got a plea.

00:37:28.060 He's got a he's got to cut a deal like the first AD did for this lower charge that with and that guy has a suspended sentence and like some probation.

00:37:35.240 And that's a much better deal.

00:37:36.660 I'm sure Alec Baldwin would take that in a heartbeat.

00:37:39.040 Oh, but yeah.

00:37:39.660 Well, but then again, the AD handed the gun, called it a cold gun.

00:37:43.740 Maybe he's guilty of, you know, negligence and that he didn't he didn't actually verify this, but he's not going to pull the trigger.

00:37:48.540 So I don't know whether or not, you know, the say what what type of deal would be offered to Baldwin when he is the face of this tragedy.

00:37:54.960 And he's the one who held the gun, pointed it at a human, pulled the trigger and ended somebody's life, albeit obviously by accident.

00:38:02.660 On the subject of whether he pulled the trigger, we've alluded to it a couple of times.

00:38:05.600 He told George Stephanopoulos in that overacted bit.

00:38:09.020 Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:38:12.780 Sorry, I don't mean to make fun of it.

00:38:14.040 It's a bad situation, but that was protesting too much.

00:38:17.060 It's fine.

00:38:17.580 Yes, we're allowed to make a little fun of his overacting.

00:38:20.480 So, yeah, he denies he pulled the trigger.

00:38:22.600 We played the soundbite yesterday and now we have another one.

00:38:25.160 Here are two excerpts.

00:38:26.540 I'm going to play both of them for you guys of Brian of Alec Baldwin's interview with the sheriff's office in December after this happened, in which he doesn't say I pulled the trigger, but he says I shot the gun, which is pretty good.

00:38:43.860 If you're the prosecutor, it's may not be exactly what you want.

00:38:46.980 But it's pretty good.

00:38:47.940 I'll play them both for you.

00:38:49.120 Here's the first one, soundbite six.

00:38:50.620 I am speechless.

00:38:56.740 We're here shooting.

00:38:57.760 Everything was going fine.

00:38:59.740 Joel is my friend.

00:39:01.520 I'm one of the producers on this movie.

00:39:03.600 We've developed this movie together for three years.

00:39:06.560 I left my wife and six kids in New York to come here for a month to shoot this movie.

00:39:10.320 And I'm the one that shot the gun today.

00:39:11.980 I had a live bullet go through that woman's body and into his body. 1.00

00:39:15.440 And I need to know, how did that happen?

00:39:20.100 Where did that bullet come from?

00:39:22.600 There are no live rounds in her kid, I'm told.

00:39:25.900 I'm the one that shot the gun.

00:39:29.720 Here's the second one.

00:39:32.940 When I shot the gun away from the cameraman, I never aimed against the camera.

00:39:39.160 I turned and I went like this to stay in the camera.

00:39:40.780 And she was there and the gun went off and she just went right on the ground.

00:39:44.700 All right.

00:39:45.200 So that's twice.

00:39:46.200 I shot the gun.

00:39:47.660 I'm the one that shot the gun.

00:39:49.680 Now, of course, he'll wiggle later and say, I meant I was the one holding it when it went

00:39:53.800 off.

00:39:54.520 You know, the bullet came from the gun I was holding.

00:39:57.260 But that's not helpful to his defense.

00:40:00.560 No.

00:40:01.060 And you know what?

00:40:01.660 Those are statements, at least one of them, which is more contemporaneous, like more in

00:40:05.740 temporal proximity to the incident.

00:40:07.520 So some will say it carries less weight.

00:40:09.820 Others will say it carries more weight because you have less time to prepare the lie, like

00:40:14.580 you might have done on George Stephanopoulos's interview, which is nonetheless very damning

00:40:18.760 as far as I'm concerned as well, because he says, I never I never pulled the trigger,

00:40:22.560 but I pulled the hammer back like this, like this.

00:40:24.780 And I pulled the hammer all the way back.

00:40:26.680 And I don't know the functioning of firearms if when you're pulling the hammer back, if you

00:40:31.480 then compress the trigger, but which would allow the hammer to strike back on the bullet.

00:40:35.500 But but, you know, those those early on statements somewhat contradicted by later on statements

00:40:40.740 once he's had time to reflect and redraft internally, they can carry more weight.

00:40:47.340 He knew the gun went off at the time, so it might just be a figure of speech.

00:40:50.060 But yeah, those those those statements shortly after the incident itself are there.

00:40:55.260 They tend to be reliable.

00:40:56.560 They're going to come into evidence and he's going to regret them.

00:41:00.440 It's one of the many mistakes he made.

00:41:02.300 Honestly, I realize he was trying to say I did nothing wrong, so I'm going to open book

00:41:06.100 and I'm going to speak with the sheriff.

00:41:07.400 He shouldn't have done that.

00:41:08.340 Any criminal defense attorney will tell you, don't don't be helpful that you might get

00:41:12.660 charged.

00:41:13.220 Keep your mouth shut. 0.93

00:41:14.260 Don't talk to George. 0.97

00:41:15.520 Don't talk to Chris Cuomo.

00:41:17.260 Don't talk to the sheriff.

00:41:18.780 Be quiet for once.

00:41:20.820 It was it was one of the analyses I put out.

00:41:23.960 He just could not shut up.

00:41:25.720 And and I think it's more telling of the narcissism of the individual thinking they're going to

00:41:29.800 talk their way out.

00:41:30.800 They are going to convince people of what they're trying to convince them.

00:41:34.660 And because they're they're so narcissistic spiritually, they think it's going to happen

00:41:40.120 and they get more frustrated when it doesn't happen that they have to keep doubling down

00:41:43.080 and doubling down.

00:41:43.920 He couldn't stop talking every time he said something.

00:41:46.640 It would sort of contradict the previous statement. 1.00

00:41:48.380 It also made him look like an absolute insensitive bastard. 0.99

00:41:52.180 I'm sorry to swear on your show. 1.00

00:41:53.720 Insensitive, callous.

00:41:55.080 He's the victim in all of this.

00:41:56.700 Never says Helena's name.

00:41:58.220 And in every in every public statement that he gives, there's there's too much protesting.

00:42:04.680 And there's also now I just forgot exactly what I was going to say.

00:42:09.540 There's too much protesting, but he's making himself the victim over the actual victim.

00:42:15.120 That's he just couldn't stop.

00:42:16.660 But that's what led Helena Hutchins's husband to come out.

00:42:20.520 And he was very angry after that interview with George Stephanopoulos and was saying, what?

00:42:25.580 Who's the victim here?

00:42:26.720 It's not Alec Baldwin.

00:42:28.420 And there was a clear divide between them, as one might expect after having seen Alec with

00:42:33.140 George.

00:42:33.460 And so the husband was clearly angry, angry with Alec.

00:42:37.480 But then they settled the civil suit that the husband, Matt Hutchins, filed and agreed to

00:42:43.320 resume shooting, resume shooting the movie out.

00:42:47.700 They said they couldn't do it in New Mexico, but they were going to do it in L.A.

00:42:51.220 And so it seemed to be a kumbaya because it was going to be with Alec Baldwin.

00:42:55.260 And the guy, the husband, the widower, was going to be an executive producer on the production.

00:43:00.280 All of this is mind blowing.

00:43:01.580 Like, OK, I guess they made up.

00:43:03.260 I don't understand.

00:43:03.980 But here's the update.

00:43:05.260 Here's the update.

00:43:06.140 New York Times reporting on January 20th.

00:43:08.960 At one point, there were plans to begin filming this month.

00:43:13.820 A person with knowledge of the project, who was granted anonymity to discuss to describe

00:43:17.320 the production plans, said that as of Thursday yesterday, the movie was still on track to

00:43:23.460 be completed with Mr. Baldwin in the lead role and Joel Souza, who was wounded in the shooting,

00:43:28.900 returning as director.

00:43:30.840 And they go on from there.

00:43:32.720 But listen.

00:43:33.920 But listen to this.

00:43:34.720 Um, when the settlement was reached, Mr. Hutchins said in a statement he had, quote, no interest

00:43:40.460 in engaging in recriminations or attribution of blame and that, quote, all of us believe

00:43:45.780 Helena's death was a terrible accident.

00:43:49.100 Well, that's not what he's saying now.

00:43:51.840 That was the settlement was just a couple of months ago.

00:43:55.280 Now, in response to the criminal charges, his lawyer says on his behalf, our independent

00:44:00.040 investigation also supports that charges are warranted.

00:44:02.880 It's a comfort to the family that in New Mexico, no one is above the law.

00:44:06.800 We support the charges and will fully cooperate.

00:44:10.260 It goes on.

00:44:11.460 I can't.

00:44:12.080 Viva, what's happening?

00:44:13.840 Well, I mean, there can be some wiggle room that now that they've seen the report of the

00:44:17.820 FBI, I don't know if the FBI report was out at the time of the settlement.

00:44:21.460 But the bottom line, there cannot not be a prosecution of this just because there was a civil

00:44:26.160 settlement that left the surviving family members sat well satisfied in as much as they

00:44:32.100 can be satisfied.

00:44:33.120 It's not that it doesn't require the widow or the children to file a complaint.

00:44:38.100 The state has the obligation to file the charges on behalf of the people and on behalf of the

00:44:43.360 victim, Helena Hutchins. 0.99

00:44:45.300 It's you couldn't escape it.

00:44:47.680 The settlement, you know, we were pontificating at the time whether or not the civil settlement

00:44:51.080 was sort of a wink, wink, nudge, nudge to the prosecutors to drop the case because we're

00:44:54.680 all happy.

00:44:55.120 But you can't do that.

00:44:56.240 There is someone dead.

00:44:57.160 And whether or not it was an accident, that's what the basis of involuntary manslaughter

00:45:02.380 is or that acknowledges accidents.

00:45:05.580 So it's going to be a very awkward movie set.

00:45:07.720 I'll just say they're very awkward.

00:45:09.240 And maybe you really need to find it's not happening.

00:45:11.880 It's not going to happen.

00:45:12.800 It can't happen.

00:45:13.660 Something's going to happen.

00:45:14.420 I'm not sure that I not to not to say New York Times has not been unreliable.

00:45:18.440 I an anonymous source will see.

00:45:20.680 I predict it's not going to go down at this point.

00:45:22.120 I don't know how it can possibly go down, but I remember my thought from earlier.

00:45:26.220 I remembered my thought from earlier before.

00:45:27.900 It's that whenever Alec Baldwin went out and made more public statements, what he was describing

00:45:32.300 made him sound like someone who is angry at the circumstances.

00:45:35.840 You know, even in that police interview, I'm away from my family and my six kids for a month

00:45:40.260 on a low budget movie set.

00:45:41.840 It sounds like he's angry and it sounds like he's tired.

00:45:45.140 It sounds like he didn't want to be there like he thought he was doing other people favors,

00:45:47.980 um, which might explain something of a, an outburst from someone who might lack impulse

00:45:53.840 control in general.

00:45:55.260 So I'm sticking to my original theory, but I doubt we'll ever get a massive admission.

00:45:59.780 I'll give you the exact quote from the prosecutors to the LA Times explaining, um, what they think

00:46:05.140 his duty was that he failed to uphold.

00:46:07.620 Um, the question from the LA Times was Baldwin has maintained that he relied on other professionals

00:46:12.080 to do their jobs and check the gun.

00:46:13.660 Why did you charge him?

00:46:14.680 Answer.

00:46:14.920 He absolutely had a duty to either check the weapon himself or have someone to check

00:46:20.520 it in front of him.

00:46:22.260 We have spoken with several actors, a list and less than a list, and all have confirmed

00:46:26.960 that when you are handed a gun, you need to look at it and make sure that it's safe.

00:46:33.500 So that's what they're going with.

00:46:35.380 Um, then listen to this Viva. 1.00

00:46:36.980 This is interesting to me.

00:46:38.120 The question from the, from the times there's still the outstanding question of how did the

00:46:42.520 live bullets get on set?

00:46:43.940 Yes, there is that question.

00:46:45.900 Does not knowing the answer weaken your case?

00:46:49.040 And by the way, here they acknowledge they still don't know the answer.

00:46:51.600 They, their answer quote, everybody seems to want to know where the live rounds came from.

00:46:55.320 And we've definitely interviewed everybody trying to answer that question.

00:46:58.200 But when it came down to whether it really matters, I mean, there were six live rounds

00:47:03.160 found in various places on this movie set, which is obviously very concerning.

00:47:07.420 But the armorer should have caught those live rounds on set.

00:47:11.580 And so our biggest concern is why didn't Hannah Gutierrez-Reed catch those live rounds on set? 0.96

00:47:18.080 Not so much on how they got there.

00:47:20.840 That may be a question that never gets answered.

00:47:24.480 Well, that, I mean, that's it.

00:47:26.580 So we talked at length that last time you were on about the guy who supplied the bullets,

00:47:29.860 uh, the ammo, Seth Kinney.

00:47:32.520 This guy's off the hook.

00:47:34.720 It sounds, it certainly sounds like he is, but this would be an example where they're,

00:47:38.240 the prosecutors, they're just saying more than they have to.

00:47:40.160 Bottom line, whether or not Alec had to check each and every bullet,

00:47:43.040 make sure they check it in front of him when he does it.

00:47:44.940 He should never have pointed a gun, a real gun, whether or not it's called a prop gun,

00:47:48.680 in the direction of a human and pulled the trigger.

00:47:51.240 Bottom line.

00:47:51.940 This is the theme of the case.

00:47:53.460 Talking more than one has to.

00:47:55.760 Less is more.

00:47:56.940 Silence is golden, uh, which most people connected to criminal law know and know very well.

00:48:01.600 Viva Fry, always a pleasure.

00:48:02.760 Thank you.

00:48:03.660 Thank you very much.

00:48:04.380 Have a good one.

00:48:05.300 All right.

00:48:05.720 You too.

00:48:06.360 We'll be right back.

00:48:07.340 Uh, and also don't forget to watch the show live on Sirius XM Triumph channel 111 every weekday at

00:48:12.000 noon East full video show and clips at youtube.com slash Megan Kelly.

00:48:16.040 And if you want to listen to it as a podcast, you can do that too.

00:48:18.580 Wherever you get your podcasts for free.

00:48:23.280 There are several new developments in the Idaho college murders case.

00:48:27.880 People magazine now reporting that the suspect went to a restaurant where two of the victims

00:48:33.100 worked at least twice before the killings.

00:48:36.960 Joining me now, Brian Enten, senior national correspondent for news nation.

00:48:40.320 Brian, welcome back to the show.

00:48:42.120 Um, so what of this people magazine report?

00:48:44.240 What did we learn?

00:48:45.200 Yeah, it's really interesting.

00:48:46.380 Uh, they had two scoops this week.

00:48:47.840 The first, uh, was that, uh, Brian Koberger had actually been to the restaurant, uh, where

00:48:54.580 two of the victims work, uh, Zana and, and Maddie both worked at mad Greek restaurant, which 0.90

00:49:00.080 is in, uh, downtown Moscow, Idaho.

00:49:02.280 Uh, and they reported that according to a former employee, Koberger had been there a couple of times.

00:49:07.220 They were known to have a vegan entree on the menu, which is apparently the reason that he went there.

00:49:12.840 Uh, and the other thing that they reported this week was that Koberger, uh, had messaged, uh, at least one of the victims on Instagram at one point.

00:49:21.540 And then it went into an unread folder, uh, but that, that, that, that is now part of the investigation.

00:49:26.920 Hmm. So what was the, like, what do we know about how aggressively he may have attempted to contact any of these victims or be in touch with them?

00:49:35.920 Listen, I'm kind of weary when it comes to the Instagram accounts, because right when I first got the name before it came out from police, um, Brian Koberger, we had a source in Pennsylvania.

00:49:46.820 Like I immediately couldn't find any social media for him.

00:49:50.960 And then when the name came out officially from the police, suddenly there were all of these social media accounts.

00:49:58.360 Some of them were following the victims.

00:50:00.640 So again, like I'm kind of careful in that department because I know that people made up fake accounts.

00:50:05.480 Yeah. Um, but, but this people magazine report is interesting.

00:50:09.340 Um, if he did indeed actually contact one of the victims and you know, there's that unread folder.

00:50:14.240 Like if it's someone who contacts you that you're not friends with, and according to people, it was in that folder.

00:50:19.760 And it seems that, um, the person that he contacted, one of the victims may not have even known that he had tried to contact them.

00:50:27.480 So are we, so are we skeptical, skeptical about all of this?

00:50:31.040 We don't, we don't put much stock in the people magazine reporting about forget the restaurant visit, but the social media attempts to somehow know them or, or be in their lives.

00:50:39.780 Because with respect to people, I think it's one source that they're citing one unnamed source.

00:50:44.940 We don't know who, we don't know how reliable.

00:50:46.880 And as you point out, we don't know whether they've done the investigation necessary to determine if these accounts were even real.

00:50:53.340 Yeah. You know, truthfully, I'm a little skeptical, nothing against people.

00:50:56.760 And I just don't know who their source is.

00:50:58.980 And again, when it comes to the Instagram accounts, there were all sorts of Instagram accounts floating around.

00:51:03.300 And then also I'm a little less skeptical of the report about the mad Greek restaurant because, you know, I was in Moscow for so long.

00:51:09.960 That is one of the only places that has like a legit vegan, um, part of the menu.

00:51:15.820 Um, so it would make sense, you know, he was a strict vegan, Brian Kohlberger.

00:51:19.920 Uh, it would make sense that he probably would have gone there, whether that has to do with, with, um, two of the victims having worked there.

00:51:26.640 I mean, it's a small town, you know, uh, these victims were connected in all sorts of different ways.

00:51:31.660 So I think it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

00:51:33.960 According to people, you know, the investigators are aware of this and this is part of the investigation behind the scenes.

00:51:39.720 Well, and again, this is, um, the, the reporting on the Instagram account is per an investigator familiar with the case to people magazine.

00:51:46.600 We don't know who it's a single source investigator familiar with the case is very ambiguous.

00:51:51.700 The sourcing on the, um, the, the suspect visited the restaurant where two of the victims worked is pretty clear.

00:51:59.980 Former employee at the, at the restaurant.

00:52:01.700 So that's, you know, that I can understand a little bit better.

00:52:04.480 A former employer, an employee at the mad Greek restaurant in Moscow, Idaho said the suspect came in at least twice to grab vegan pizza.

00:52:13.020 Two of the victims, uh, Maddie and Zanna were servers at the restaurant.

00:52:17.380 It's unclear if either woman ever waited on him or if they even interacted, but, um, people says it has confirmed that they've collected, authorities have collected surveillance video from the restaurant surrounding businesses.

00:52:29.180 That's all confirmable by going to the restaurants and asking them.

00:52:33.040 And, uh, this former employee telling people that the, there was nothing suspicious about him per se, but he stood out because he had a particular order, a strict vegan.

00:52:42.000 He would check to make sure that his food had not come into any contact with animal products.

00:52:47.740 So that's why they remembered him.

00:52:49.560 Um, we're all just trying to read the tea leaves to see why, why these victims, why them?

00:52:55.220 Yeah.

00:52:55.720 And that makes sense because that goes back to what one of, uh, Kohlberger's aunts said that when Kohlberger went to visit her with his dad, um, that he was very particular about the pots and pans that she used.

00:53:08.460 When she was cooking for, for him, his, his vegan meals, even wanting her to buy new pots and pans because her pots and pans had touched meat before.

00:53:17.160 So that, that lines up, I can see why he would be memorable going into a restaurant, sort of asking those sorts of things.

00:53:23.880 Yes.

00:53:24.220 That plus, you know, what may have been sort of an odd effect in general, that's the kind of stuff that makes you stand out as opposed to these beautiful college girls who are friendly and, you know, what you might expect coming in.

00:53:35.160 Um, let's talk about the search warrant.

00:53:36.680 There's a lot in there first explained to the audience, what we're talking about.

00:53:40.060 Something was unveiled and what was it and why do we care?

00:53:43.500 Yeah.

00:53:43.740 So we were out there, this was in Pullman, Washington, where Kohlberger lived.

00:53:48.160 His apartment was in Pullman, which is like 10 minutes from Moscow.

00:53:50.860 We were there when they initially went there right after the arrest and started pulling stuff out of the house.

00:53:55.680 Um, and that's when the search was happening, but all of that was sealed by the court.

00:53:59.900 So we didn't know exactly what was being taken out.

00:54:02.520 I mean, we saw the bags and the boxes, but we didn't see what was inside.

00:54:05.200 We saw a computer tower and I assumed that they were going to keep it sealed for a while.

00:54:09.280 It was a surprise to me, uh, when, when earlier this week, suddenly they unsealed the search

00:54:14.020 warrant.

00:54:14.480 I enlisted the items.

00:54:15.660 I'm just looking at it now is interesting.

00:54:17.460 Uh, several possible hairs that they were obviously test, uh, testing for, for DNA and that kind

00:54:22.620 of thing, a fire stick with a cord and plug, which is one of those things that you plug into

00:54:26.480 your TV to like watch Netflix and search the internet, several receipts, Walmart, Marshall's

00:54:31.220 receipt, a black glove, um, a dust container from a vacuum, a computer tower.

00:54:37.200 Um, and then also, um, a dark red spot.

00:54:41.700 They don't use, uh, the term blood, but obviously we can, you know, put the pieces together there.

00:54:47.020 Um, and then cuttings from an unused pillow, again, reddish brown stains.

00:54:52.500 And then they also took some mattress covers, uh, that apparently had stains on them.

00:54:57.360 Um, obviously all of that got tested.

00:54:59.160 It even says in the search warrant that they tested some of the items on site.

00:55:02.300 Uh, but what those tests revealed, that's not included.

00:55:06.540 And the, the black glove is interesting.

00:55:08.760 Um, it's, it's not a rubber glove.

00:55:11.620 It's not a, it's not a kind of glove that they use during COVID.

00:55:15.380 It's a nitrate black glove, which is, that's the kind that like nothing gets through.

00:55:21.540 You can't like, you could stick your hand into something really sketchy, like acid with

00:55:25.940 one of those on.

00:55:27.500 Yeah, exactly.

00:55:28.380 I interviewed, um, a former, a former FBI agent the other day who was, oh, you've got

00:55:32.640 a picture.

00:55:33.040 That's great.

00:55:33.520 Who really zeroed in on that.

00:55:35.580 Like she, she found that to be very interesting that that kind of glove was found there kind

00:55:39.880 of a specialized glove.

00:55:41.540 Um, so yeah, certainly kind of raises some red flags.

00:55:45.440 But, but I mean, is it just me, but I think about what are the odds that this guy, you know,

00:55:50.180 this criminology PhD, and I realize if this is the guy, um, he made a lot of mistakes,

00:55:56.000 but what are the odds that he comes back and he gets rid of the clothes while he, that

00:56:00.620 he was wearing while committing the murders?

00:56:02.080 Cause it doesn't, you know, I don't see those listed necessarily on, on what they took.

00:56:07.280 He gets rid of the murder weapon, but he lays all over his mattress cover and gets it covered

00:56:11.800 with the blood of the victim.

00:56:12.740 Like I just, that doesn't really.

00:56:15.940 Yeah, I know.

00:56:16.600 There's been a lot of mistakes along the way.

00:56:18.740 If this is indeed the guy, I mean, with all the knowledge that he has in terms of, you

00:56:22.760 know, leaving the cell phone on so many times when he was around the house and, you know,

00:56:26.340 being in the car.

00:56:27.780 Um, so I think, you know, you'd know better than me as a lawyer, but you know, a lot of

00:56:32.000 people that I've talked to have said that could almost come up as a defense.

00:56:34.440 Like why would someone with all of this intricate knowledge of the criminal justice system who

00:56:38.780 studied it his whole life, um, have made all of these mistakes if he actually did it?

00:56:44.020 Well, the other thing is I'm interested that they found the vacuum that then they took

00:56:47.140 the container from his vacuum.

00:56:48.300 Cause that you could get sloppy, you could vacuum up hairs and so on that you would inadvertently

00:56:52.800 brought back to your apartment and then forget to get rid of the vacuum container, right?

00:56:57.120 Which still has all the evidence, um, possible hairs, interesting, possible animal hair is

00:57:03.740 interesting too.

00:57:04.340 Did he have a pet?

00:57:06.640 So it's our understanding he did not have a pet, but, um, but Kaylee Gonzalez, one of the

00:57:12.100 victims did have a, a doodle, um, that she had at the house there that was at the house

00:57:17.780 when the murders happened.

00:57:19.100 So that could be interesting because if that, imagine if that, that pet hair is Kaylee's

00:57:24.420 dog from inside the house.

00:57:26.260 Um, I I'd imagine that's why that, that was possibly important.

00:57:29.920 I feel like having two labs, labs shed, you get, I mean, I, I look like such a ragamuffin

00:57:36.320 when I walk around because I've got their hair all over me.

00:57:38.580 It's just never ending battle to get it all off of you.

00:57:41.120 But a doodle, you know, you get a doodle in part because they don't shed like that.

00:57:45.280 Doesn't mean their hair has never come off, but yeah, that's just, I mean, just one possible

00:57:50.820 animal hair is like, that's, I'd expect to see more like one possible hair that I'm looking

00:57:56.260 at the list of what they got.

00:57:57.480 One possible hair, one possible hair, one possible hair.

00:57:59.980 This is eight, nine, 10, 11 is again, one possible hair strand.

00:58:04.720 So different than just hair.

00:58:07.900 And then, um, one possible animal hair strands lifted separately, by the way, what is a computer

00:58:13.760 tower?

00:58:15.480 You know, a computer tower, it's, it's kind of old school now that we all have like laptops

00:58:19.120 and stuff, but remember the old school, it's like a tower, like a black kind of sits on the 0.86

00:58:22.940 floor and you plug your monitor to it into it.

00:58:25.080 It's the actual tower.

00:58:26.540 Remember you'd like have it at your house, at your office.

00:58:28.620 That's, that's like, like an old Dell or something.

00:58:30.680 You know, if you're into computers and video games, you might still have one.

00:58:34.040 Um, but you, when you brought up with how it was interesting, a lot of the experts I've

00:58:38.860 talking to talk, I've spoken to you said the same thing you did.

00:58:41.140 They thought that more stuff would have been taken out.

00:58:43.000 And I thought that too, because we were outside and they were bringing so much stuff out bags

00:58:47.640 and bags, which I later went back and looked at the video after we got this, uh, warrant

00:58:52.840 and realized I, a lot of the stuff they were bringing out, I guess it was actually the tools,

00:58:57.320 um, that they brought in to do the search and the testing, um, you know, all the stuff

00:59:02.740 that they use for the forensics.

00:59:04.480 Uh, so it wasn't actually like items of his that they were bringing out.

00:59:08.180 It's, it's amazing that they didn't bring out more.

00:59:10.460 I mean, I know from my many years of listening to Dateline, um, that one of the things investigators

00:59:15.700 will often do is check your washer dryer and your shower, and they'll run the luminol tests

00:59:22.960 there to see if there's any blood evidence there.

00:59:26.080 If he came home and took a shower and had blood on him, you know, that stuff is tough to wash

00:59:29.440 away. Do we know whether his apartment had a washer dryer in it?

00:59:34.600 That's a good question. I don't know. Um, I've been out to the apartment. It's, it's like, um,

00:59:39.380 student housing. Um, so I wouldn't be probably not would be my guest. Um, and remember too,

00:59:45.580 this is just one of the places that they searched where the warrant has been unsealed.

00:59:48.960 And they also searched his office on campus at Washington state, which was part of this

00:59:53.380 warrant. And it appears they didn't take anything from the office, but we don't know what

00:59:57.520 they took from his parents' house in Pennsylvania where the arrest happened. And we don't know what

01:00:03.140 they got from his car because that was a separate search warrant. Um, you remember the reports that

01:00:07.380 he was cleaning out his car and doing all sorts of stuff with the car before the arrest. So they

01:00:11.300 may have found a lot in the car, um, that, you know, we, we just don't know that's all still

01:00:15.620 sealed at this point.

01:00:16.460 And, and one of the things that's interesting about the list of items retrieved is what's not

01:00:21.580 on there. You know, what's not on there? No, no murder weapon, no bloody clothes, no mask,

01:00:28.580 like black mask that the roommate allegedly saw the perpetrator wearing. Um, I don't know where

01:00:35.500 that stuff would have gone, whether he threw it out in the weeks that they didn't have him on their

01:00:39.380 radar, whether he dumped them along the route home from, uh, the site of the murders. But that's

01:00:45.920 kind of an interesting what's missing.

01:00:47.220 Yeah, for sure. And when you go through the whole search warrant, there's a part where

01:00:51.900 they're justifying to the judge why they want to search and they explain what they're going

01:00:56.440 to be looking for. And one of the things that they said that the detective said they wanted

01:01:00.660 to look for was the murder weapon. And they said knife or, or knife sheath. Um, and then

01:01:05.980 there is no murder weapon listed in what they took. So obviously they didn't find the knife

01:01:10.100 when they were there. You mentioned the route he took. I drove that route, the route he took

01:01:14.780 from that, or that police say took from where the murders happened to his apartment in Pullman.

01:01:20.740 And like I said, it's about a 10 minute drive. He took this long roundabout route, according

01:01:25.560 to detectives, went way out into the country. It took me almost a half an hour through all

01:01:30.220 these farms, over all these hills, way out in rural Idaho. Um, so if he tossed the knife

01:01:37.340 out along that route, seems it would be hard to recover. I mean, it would be a massive search

01:01:42.860 they would have to do through the countryside. Um, and from what we know, at least according

01:01:47.400 to the search warrant, they still don't have the knife. Do we know if they're doing it?

01:01:51.480 You know, we would see that. Yeah, I don't think they're doing it because I think we would

01:01:56.040 have heard about it. Uh, someone would have told us we would have seen it. I mean, I guess

01:01:59.880 they could do like a metal detector, but again, having driven the route, I mean, it would

01:02:04.360 be, it would be a massive undertaking. So he could have driven 10 minutes home directly

01:02:10.980 and he chose to go this back route and it took him about an hour. We know from the timing

01:02:16.080 revealed in the affidavit to get home. So what is the, what is the speculation on what,

01:02:23.220 what non-nefarious reason could there be for taking that route home?

01:02:28.360 Yeah. I mean, I can't think of one again, because I was driving back and forth between Moscow and

01:02:32.820 Pullman all the time. You'd just take the main highway that everybody takes. I mean,

01:02:36.260 this was like the most roundabout, you know, strange way to go. It was a, it was a beautiful

01:02:41.520 route. Um, I mean, if you wanted to like take a scenic route, but I mean, at that time it

01:02:45.820 was dark out. Um, so I can't really think of one, why you would go all the way out there.

01:02:51.840 Hmm. All right. So now what's happening, because I understand that the judge is unhappy with all

01:02:57.200 these leaks to the media and there was a gag order in place, but now we've gotten like the

01:03:01.400 super special extra gag order. Correct. Yeah. That just came down a couple of days ago. I just

01:03:07.560 got the, um, the court document on that yesterday. Again, kind of unexpected because I thought the

01:03:12.800 first gag order, uh, to me from, you know, covering other trials and stuff was, um, was really strict.

01:03:19.380 And now this one goes even, even farther, basically saying like, no one can talk now that in the first

01:03:25.420 one, they said prosecutors, defense attorneys, detectives, anyone associated with them couldn't

01:03:30.940 talk. Um, and that, you know, the only information would come from what's said in court. Now they've

01:03:35.520 actually included, um, witnesses, which they had before, um, victims, family attorneys. So

01:03:42.900 attorneys representing the witnesses, victims, or victims, families. So even the attorneys that are

01:03:48.100 representing the victims can't talk to the media, which they have been a lot in the past. And then it's

01:03:52.840 it's really broad as well as the parties to the above entitled action included, but not limited

01:03:58.660 to. And then it goes onto this whole list where I think you could like technically say anyone's part

01:04:03.680 of that list. Um, which I've never seen anything. I mean, have you, you've covered probably a lot more

01:04:09.600 of these than I have. Have you ever seen where they say the victims attorneys who have nothing really

01:04:14.700 to do with the actual case aren't allowed to talk? No, I haven't. That's there clearly. I mean,

01:04:19.380 it makes me believe in the leaks that are coming out, you know, prior to that order, because clearly

01:04:25.040 we're getting real information. Otherwise the court wouldn't be upset and trying to cast such a wide

01:04:29.620 net. Um, let me ask you a couple of things that are just random, uh, in the news before I let you

01:04:34.720 go. And that is, uh, Nancy Grace. She went out there and she talked to the suspect's neighbor. I think

01:04:41.880 it was, it was his neighbor. And I don't know if it's the same neighbor who already went on record as

01:04:46.260 saying he was not an insomniac necessarily, but was up at all hours and she would hear him vacuuming

01:04:52.540 and so on. But she spoke with a neighbor who says the neighbor claimed to Nancy, she spoke with Brian

01:04:58.540 Kohlberger after the murders about the murders. And here's the description of that. So seven

01:05:03.760 actually says, have you heard about the murders? Yeah. When we were talking right here, uh, he said,

01:05:10.540 have you heard about these murders? And I was like, I was like, yeah, yeah. Cause it just

01:05:15.020 happened. He was like, yeah, it seems like they don't have any leads. And I was like, yeah,

01:05:20.040 I guess not. And then he's like, yeah, they think it's a crime of passion. I was like, yeah,

01:05:24.580 I don't know. And then he kind of left it at that. My God. What, what, how far have we gotten

01:05:31.380 as the press, which we can't be gagged. We can report on what we want. Um, but the neighbors,

01:05:37.560 with people who, you know, lived by him or the landlord, you know, the people who would know

01:05:41.440 him and have more of a pulse on comments around the event presence around the event.

01:05:47.720 Yeah. I mean, we've talked to a bunch of neighbors in that complex for the most part to me,

01:05:52.000 you know, it was, he seemed like an odd guy. Um, you know, he was up late at night. It wasn't

01:05:56.920 anything super crazy to me. What was interesting is we also talked to people at Washington state

01:06:02.040 university. You know, he taught classes. I mean, we keep focusing on the fact that he was getting

01:06:05.960 his PhD, but he was like a teacher because, you know, when you're getting your PhD, you teach

01:06:10.440 undergraduate and master's level classes. You know, he had an office there, he had students.

01:06:16.520 Um, and what was interesting talking to some of them is that, you know, he was apparently very,

01:06:19.940 very talkative and, and active about talking about different cases and talking about serial

01:06:24.760 killers and all of that. But when this happened, um, apparently he was very, very quiet when people

01:06:30.680 would talk about the murders, um, at the university of Idaho, that, that he didn't want to talk about

01:06:36.120 it. I don't want to say that he didn't want to talk about it, but that he just didn't talk about

01:06:38.940 it, that he didn't chime in on the conversation, which at the time, those students say, they just

01:06:43.040 like, didn't think anything of it. Um, but then obviously now where we're at there, they've all

01:06:48.360 thought back and thought like, Oh, that is interesting that, that he was just quiet during those

01:06:52.380 discussions. Right. But he may have been anonymously commenting online. Um, as we've discussed

01:06:58.940 him and the police will know by now, I think whether that those couple of handles were in

01:07:03.440 fact, his, there's a Tik TOK video of one of the victims, Kaylee, that, um, has made some

01:07:09.260 news because it shows the inside of the home. I'm going to play it.

01:07:16.680 Guys, it feels like dirty dick in here. Murphy, you've been a bad boy. 1.00

01:07:23.700 That's nine, 10 guys. Can anybody drop me? Cause I'm fucking late for my team. I'm supposed

01:07:27.680 to go 10 minutes ago. Did anybody do their chores today? Fuck yeah, I'm just going to do

01:07:33.280 it. Oh shit, you guys. It's eight. Gotta go. Chase, call on. Chase, call on. Oh my god, 1.00

01:07:45.780 I look horrid. Oh Murphy, you look so cute. Get, get out of here. You seriously gotta get

01:07:51.500 you fucking stupid shit out of here. Okay guys, I know I talk about myself a lot, but like, 1.00

01:07:56.800 what would you guys do in my situation? Zana, where are you going? Yeah, I've got a good

01:08:01.320 pull. Yeah, I fucking failed. Zana, do like a white night? Like, let's just do a white night. 0.99

01:08:08.700 Yo, is it okay to have a party? Like just three or four people, at most.

01:08:13.460 It's first of all, so sad to see these girls like so vibrant in the prime of their lives,

01:08:18.020 having fun, being silly. They're sort of mocking each other there gently, not having any idea what's

01:08:25.220 coming their way. But what do you make of the social media accounts of the girls? Have they

01:08:29.760 been locked down and are they being probed by the investigators, you know, for any evidence,

01:08:34.920 the actual Instagram and so on accounts of the girls and of, and of, yeah, so you can,

01:08:40.060 yeah, you can still see their Instagram accounts. They haven't been locked down. I mean, obviously all

01:08:44.120 the online sleuths have been analyzing everyone who's liked their photos and, you know, anything

01:08:48.380 you can possibly think of. Again, it's hard. It's always hard with the social media because people

01:08:51.980 are making up so much fake stuff. So like, I take it a lot of it with a grain of salt, but,

01:08:56.500 but their accounts are still there. That video, I always found to be especially sad. You mentioned

01:09:01.560 it. It was them kind of mocking each other. And it just reminds you of when you were in college

01:09:06.100 and they just seem like such good kids. There's this other video. I don't know if you've seen it,

01:09:10.740 Megan. There was a noise complaint at the house at one point and the police come around to the back

01:09:16.280 of the house and Kaylee comes out and they have this discussion and she's so respectful to the

01:09:21.640 police officer. And again, that was just another one I was so sad watching because it was just like,

01:09:25.920 you remember college when the police would come to a party and you could just tell she was a really

01:09:30.140 good kid. The way she was, you know, telling yes, sir, to the police officer, we won't let it happen

01:09:34.640 again. And all those videos, it's so easy to get caught up in all the documents and the case and,

01:09:39.000 you know, everything going on with the, with the investigation. But, but all those videos just

01:09:43.420 like remind us that, you know, it really is just, it's so sad. It's eerie to see the inside of the

01:09:50.280 house because you see them going down the stairs for our listening audience. You can watch it on

01:09:55.000 YouTube when we post it later, but you see the girls going down the stairs and it's, we know that

01:10:00.200 the killer went up and down those stairs so that he would, he began on the third floor. He went down to

01:10:04.360 the second floor and exited, we think through the sliding glass door on the first floor.

01:10:09.300 Yeah. I don't know. There's something about seeing the actual stairs just brings you there

01:10:12.440 in a dark way. And of course the police have now poured over that whole scene. Is that,

01:10:17.900 is their house still behind police tape? Is it still inaccessible?

01:10:22.860 Yeah, at this point it still is. They've got the police tape up. They've actually hired a private

01:10:27.720 security guard because there's so few police officers in Moscow. I think they just kind of couldn't

01:10:32.260 keep a cop there all the time. So they've got a security guard now and they were going to release

01:10:37.600 it back to the landlord at one point. But then the, the court intervened and said, no, we think we need

01:10:44.080 to keep it. I'm assuming like maybe when, when it went, and if there's a trial, they may need to go

01:10:49.460 back in. So yeah, it's all still locked down. Who, who would, you know, who would want to live

01:10:55.060 there? I mean, no one's going to live there. It's going to be a place that gets demolished. I'm sure.

01:10:58.560 Uh, Brian, thank you so much for all the good reporting on this and for being with us today.

01:11:03.340 Thanks. Thanks for having me, Megan. Yeah, it's our pleasure. Uh, right up next,

01:11:07.160 we're going to have a retired FBI agent who knows how to investigate mass murder more in Idaho right

01:11:12.220 after this. My next guest is James R. Fitzgerald. He is a retired FBI criminal profiler who was involved

01:11:22.160 in high profile cases like the search for the Unabomber and the DC sniper shootings. He's also the

01:11:27.980 author of the book, a journey to the center of the mind. James, thanks for being here.

01:11:33.900 Hey, Megan. Great to be with you. Yeah. So you worked with our friend,

01:11:37.380 Terry Turchie then in tracking down some of those criminals.

01:11:41.200 Terry's one of the finest FBI supervisors I ever knew. And I still see him on TV, uh,

01:11:46.880 rendering opinions about current events in the FBI. Great man, great supervisor. And I'd like to see

01:11:52.320 him get back into the FBI one of these days at the very top. Awesome. Yeah, me too. He was here for

01:11:56.600 our Unabomber episode and it was riveting, riveting. I couldn't, I couldn't even form questions. I just

01:12:02.460 want to listen to him talk. Um, okay. So in a minute, before you go, I want to ask you about

01:12:07.520 the Supreme court because I'd love to know how you would solve that case. But before we get to that,

01:12:11.460 let's stay on Idaho. Um, this, the release of what they found when they searched his house, um,

01:12:18.320 one airtight, uh, what was black one, one nitrate type black glove Walmart receipt with one Dickies

01:12:26.560 tag. That's a, I think a clothing store, uh, two Marshall's receipts, dust container from the

01:12:32.140 vacuum, eight possible hair strands, one fire TV stick with cord plug animal hair strand, several

01:12:37.960 other hair strands, computer tower collection of dark red spot, two cuttings from, uh, a pillow case

01:12:46.480 from an uncased pillow. Yeah. Uncased pillow, two cuttings from an uncased pillow of reddish brown

01:12:51.260 stain to top and bottom of mattress cover package separately, uh, with multiple stains. So what do

01:13:00.020 you make of that and what's on there and what's not on there? Well, first of all, writing up a search

01:13:05.300 warrant for a case such as this, you're going to basically request of the courts and the judge is

01:13:10.840 going to sign off, uh, everything you can possibly get your hands on. And there's no reason any of those

01:13:15.140 items you just read off, uh, anything that would assist a someone in committing a violent crime,

01:13:21.580 especially in one in which there may be transfer evidence of blood, DNA, or some other kind of hair

01:13:27.140 material, whatever. So you're going to basically ask for everything in an attempt to get, uh, additional

01:13:32.380 evidence for the eventual arrest, if not prosecution of that individual. So, uh, nothing on that list that

01:13:40.040 they, uh, included in the, uh, in the affidavit for the search warrant, as well as what they took

01:13:45.080 from it surprises me. Uh, I'm sure they would have liked to have find, uh, found the knife there and

01:13:49.980 any other sort of, uh, materials, photographs, things like that. He may have had, uh, sort of a

01:13:55.160 trophy wall set up with some of these people do. Uh, but, uh, that may come on more digital forms and

01:14:00.800 they go through his computer, his phones, things like that. I believe certainly in the information

01:14:05.320 coming in, uh, you know, preliminarily to us is that there was some level of stalking, however you

01:14:10.960 want to define that, uh, of these, uh, young women, one or more of them, uh, prior to, uh, the killings

01:14:17.300 that night. And, and they're looking for any kind of evidence which would tie him into that as well as

01:14:22.320 of course, trace evidence, transfer evidence, which would be found at his room, uh, in his, in his

01:14:26.740 apartment, anything which would facilitate the commission of these crimes. So if this is the guy,

01:14:32.020 as the police say, uh, he got rid of the murder weapon and he appears to have gotten rid of the

01:14:37.440 clothes worn while committing the crime. So, but the trophy wall is interesting to me. I mean,

01:14:43.360 I doubt he had a trophy wall since he seems to have at least been trying to be careful,

01:14:47.740 but how common is that for this kind of a killer to need some sort of a trophy?

01:14:54.540 Yeah, we're going to find out, uh, and I never say their names, by the way, I'll refer to them as BK

01:14:59.420 his initials, but we're going to find out a lot about him from a psychological perspective.

01:15:03.520 And I'm not trying to give a defense or any excuses for him, uh, in terms of what sort of

01:15:08.000 disorder he may suffer from, but, uh, there's going to be issues like that related to him,

01:15:13.660 his upbringing, the whole nature versus nurture thing. And all of this is going to come together

01:15:17.680 at time of trial. No doubt the prosecution will have their, uh, psychological experts that will be,

01:15:23.240 uh, be testifying. Defense will bring their own in. That certainly happened in the Unabomb case.

01:15:27.720 There never was a trial, but both sides had their psychologists and psychiatrists lined up.

01:15:32.120 So all those factors are going to, are going to play into this. And, and somehow,

01:15:36.940 you know, motivation will be the ultimate goal here. And like, I I've been to houses where I've

01:15:42.600 certainly seen photographs of them as both an investigator and later as a profiler of, of stalkers

01:15:48.020 out of people who have these shrines set up. Sometimes they'll, they'll empty a closet of whatever

01:15:53.120 it's supposed to be holding. And it's an entire, uh, little mini room set up to the person that they

01:15:58.320 are, uh, uh, you know, focused on or hung up on. And, um, obviously, well, I don't know. Obviously

01:16:04.120 we don't know what was found in the apartment. Uh, this guy was probably too smart to have something

01:16:09.400 as obvious as that in case somebody walked in there and he wasn't around that certainly wouldn't

01:16:14.340 look good for him, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of a digital archive. Now he may have

01:16:19.300 tried to delete it since the murders, but he may have had something set up about one or more of

01:16:24.180 these women, because it seems like he had some level of fascination with them. They wronged him

01:16:29.600 somehow. And I said this in my earliest appearance, November 25th on Fox news, there was somehow in some

01:16:35.440 way they somehow wronged him, uh, online digitally in a bar trying to buy them a drink. They refused it,

01:16:42.300 whatever. Uh, and, uh, and that's going to be the ultimate motivation. As I also said that night,

01:16:47.700 about 12 days after the murder itself was that this guy is probably an incel, uh, uh, advocate,

01:16:55.580 if you will, doesn't mean he subscribed to the websites or, or pays the dues. I'm kind of kidding

01:17:00.600 about that, but you know, actually goes online, but he is, he is someone who very much feels that

01:17:06.440 the women keep turning him down in his life. And this was the, the, the culmination of what happened

01:17:11.800 is, uh, is the result of the four murders that night of these three women and, uh, and the one

01:17:17.000 male Ethan. So I have no doubt is the overall umbrella to this. What's your best guess on why

01:17:22.740 now, if that's the case, you know, we've heard so much about him being rejected over and over.

01:17:26.540 There's one report about the FBI, um, interviewing somebody who was in the sixth grade with him,

01:17:31.620 who he pursued in a way that was awkward and uncomfortable for more than just this girl,

01:17:37.140 apparently. And, uh, she rejected him. Pretty girl. No woman has come forward to say she had a

01:17:42.760 positive experience with him. There's been a couple of people coming forward saying very odd

01:17:47.060 guy, no, not a social person and so on. And talked about how he'd been bullied quite a bit when he was

01:17:52.920 very, very overweight before he dramatically lost a bunch of, uh, of weight. Um, so why now, why at 28,

01:17:59.860 you know, while he's getting his PhD, he's sort of at the end of the road in terms of his education,

01:18:04.500 about to go out there and earn money. Like why?

01:18:06.060 Uh, Ted Kaczynski was about the same age when he, uh, uh, launched his first bomb at, uh, in Chicago

01:18:14.000 and four of them right after that. Uh, some people, it takes longer to, uh, mature in terms of their

01:18:20.520 criminal sophistication or devolve in terms of their, their psychological disorders. And I'm not

01:18:26.200 clinically saying that. So who knows exactly what happened? I think a big factor with, uh, with BK

01:18:31.160 is that, um, I think he grew up in Northeastern Pennsylvania. I'm from Philadelphia originally. I

01:18:37.520 know that area. He went to school a little bit away from there, but look what he finally did at

01:18:41.920 the age of 28 or so. He travels 2,500 miles across country. He's far away now, finally from

01:18:48.960 the tentacles of his parents, of his familial upbringing, uh, you know, the home, the neighborhood

01:18:54.120 where he grew up. And he may think he may be thinking for the first time, I am finally on my own.

01:18:59.220 I can do what I want. I don't have any daily reporting or weekend reporting to any parents

01:19:04.100 or authority figures. This is my opportunity. It doesn't mean he moved out there consciously to

01:19:08.900 kill four people. It's just that it was a, uh, Jupiter aligning with Mars with a few other planets

01:19:15.160 in there. And of course, not in a good way. These women that, that represented everything that's 0.63

01:19:20.520 gone wrong with him in the earlier stages of his life. He's this, uh, behavioral hodgepodge of issues

01:19:26.820 that he's had to deal with, uh, with rejection time after time again. And again, these, these,

01:19:32.880 these planets lined up for him. He's away from home. He's, uh, he has autonomy. He has an important

01:19:39.200 position. He's, you know, again, he's in cell. He's probably followed these crimes from the past.

01:19:43.740 I wouldn't be surprised if he's researched, uh, Lizzie Borden. She was a well-known starver who killed

01:19:48.740 her parents, Jack the Ripper, uh, Richard Speck, 1966 in Chicago. He's probably looked into these

01:19:54.940 particular people. He's probably watched the movie rope a number of times. Albert Hitchcock loosely

01:19:59.760 based on the Leopold and Loeb case from 1923. I think it was, uh, two college students thought

01:20:06.280 they were smart enough to, to, you know, trick the police and kidnap and, and kill a young, uh,

01:20:11.120 young man and get away with it. Of course they didn't just like DK didn't here either. So we have

01:20:15.820 really this, uh, I say hodgepodge or mishmash of all kinds of personality issues finally coming

01:20:21.540 together, uh, for him. And again, for some people that happens in a good way, you know what,

01:20:25.980 I'm finally going to, uh, you know, college, I'm finally going to join the military graduate school,

01:20:30.180 whatever this guy, it was about, it was about paying back sort of a, as a, as we call it,

01:20:35.740 you know, a grievance collector. Uh, some psychologists use that term, all these grievances

01:20:40.760 that build up the foundation were laid of brick by brick by brick. And it's finally hit

01:20:45.660 sort of this crescendo in, uh, and of all places, uh, uh, um, Moscow, Idaho. And, and this

01:20:53.680 aligns at the same time. And these poor four victims are the one to pay the price for his,

01:20:59.300 uh, the alleged grievances, uh, placed against him, uh, you know, for the decade plus.

01:21:04.500 Why would you think that there wouldn't be a sexual assault? I mean, I, I know I've heard

01:21:08.440 some speculate, maybe he didn't have time, you know, but I don't believe that because

01:21:12.740 he chose to go into this house, you know, when he knew everybody was home, it's like, no, like,

01:21:18.880 I feel like if you wanted to commit a sexual assault and then a murder, you'd probably target

01:21:22.020 a single victim and not a house full of six people. But you tell me, cause you're the criminal 0.99

01:21:26.960 profiler. Um, sexual assault is not always measured or quantified by the sexual act. Um,

01:21:36.480 you can get into Freudian psychology, whatever, but certainly the, the, the, the swinging of the

01:21:41.620 the knife, the, the, the stabbing of the knife, who knows how many times dozens, no doubt, uh,

01:21:47.340 among four separate victims in a way could have been a substitute sexual act for this guy.

01:21:53.480 And again, I'm not trying to create a defense for him or anything like that. I don't think this

01:21:56.460 would be, uh, but this, this could be some sort of a surrogate, uh, or, or sort of a choreographed

01:22:02.420 action that, all right, you're not going to let me perform in some other ways, which who knows

01:22:07.860 what his performance issues may or may not be. Uh, I'll, you know, I'll jab you with this item

01:22:13.120 instead. So in his own way, in his own distorted method of thinking, this could have been a sexual

01:22:18.700 act for him. But I mean, I granted, I understand your question, Megan, you think, you know, find

01:22:22.880 one woman alone and try to, you know, uh, use some method to, uh, control, uh, you know, trick her 0.99

01:22:29.060 into having sex, if not use force, but that wasn't his mission. He was mission oriented that night.

01:22:33.860 It's time to get back at these women who, uh, who've done this to me for all my life. 1.00

01:22:39.120 And, uh, and by the way, I'm really smarter than the cops anyway, in this small town, I'll have no

01:22:44.180 problem getting away with it, but guess what? He was wrong there too. Do you, would you describe

01:22:48.840 this as a sophisticated crime or a not sophisticated, well, crime and killer? That's a great question,

01:22:55.480 Megan. And, uh, uh, to refer back to that 1145 appearance, how I framed this was the crime itself,

01:23:02.660 the four corners of the crime, the 10 minutes, if even that long now we're finding out inside the

01:23:08.460 room, um, uh, highly unsophisticated. It was stabbing. It was blood. It was, uh, bad things

01:23:15.920 happening to people without getting any more graphic than that. A lot of loss of control of, uh, people

01:23:21.200 there may have been yelling and screaming, you know, whatever we dogs barking, all these things.

01:23:25.540 And I always said the crime itself was unsophisticated. There was a loss of emotion. There was a loss of

01:23:31.800 control on this person's part, yet he had enough to get through successfully, quote unquote, and

01:23:37.820 egress the scene where there's some level of sophistication, um, was where the bookends of

01:23:43.840 the crime. And of course we know now he made plenty of mistakes with the phone, with the car, et cetera,

01:23:48.280 but he did do some, the pre-offense and post-offense behavior, uh, before and after the 10 minute crime

01:23:55.080 spree itself showed some level of sophistication, a forethought and, and, and forensic, uh, counter 0.98

01:24:01.520 measures, uh, again, not enough using his own car, pretty stupid, uh, just turning off the phone at 1.00

01:24:08.300 that one time when the murders occurred, you know, whatever, two hour timeframe, pretty stupid. If he 1.00

01:24:13.400 turned it off every night at two o'clock or, you know, the months before, yeah, okay, well maybe there's

01:24:18.440 a trend and the reason he does it. So sophistication, uh, beginning, uh, before and after the crime,

01:24:24.400 not so much, uh, uh, in the middle. And of course, uh, leaving the knife sheet behind, uh, was probably

01:24:31.420 the biggest mistake, which happened to have his blood on it. And that's where the case was really

01:24:36.000 made that along, of course, with the white car being identified. So, um, uh, it's like he had enough

01:24:42.620 criminal justice and criminological information to think about this crime, get in the door and

01:24:49.620 carry it out and kind of get there in one piece and leave in one piece. But obviously there's,

01:24:55.480 there's missing pieces that came about to ultimately cause his downfall.

01:24:59.860 Well, let's talk about that for one second, because you're talking about this guy who kind of

01:25:02.780 maybe snapped eventually, just some, a lifetime of rejection and not fitting in and being an incel,

01:25:09.160 elegant, involuntarily celibate. It's a thing. Um, you know, being angry at women, uh, feeling

01:25:16.960 nothing. If you believe that these internet posts that were, that were unearthed from when he would

01:25:21.480 have been 16 or his feeling, feeling nothing, feeling dead inside, feeling nothing for his family,

01:25:27.060 you know, just complete, completely emotionless. And if there were any emotions, they were negative.

01:25:32.100 If that's his profile, then, and then he, and then he snaps, he meets the girls, he feels rejected,

01:25:39.300 what have you. How does all that relate to him devoting himself to studying crime? Like,

01:25:46.360 do you think there would have been like a, a light bulb? Like, what am I going to do with

01:25:50.260 this affect I have and these feelings I'm not having? Am I going to chant? Like,

01:25:55.140 I just think there are two sort of, because a lot of people think this was like just some creep who

01:25:59.220 wanted to perform the perfect crime. And that's why he studied criminology and then he tried to do

01:26:03.860 it. But then there's the other lane of no lifetime of rejection snapped, you know? So how do you

01:26:09.240 explain those two lanes? Uh, yeah, it's a convergence of multiple lanes of his life that,

01:26:15.480 that for some of the reasons we've already discussed and probably others, we don't even

01:26:18.580 know about yet. All sort of, all sort of came together here. And it's, it's, it's, it's,

01:26:23.320 it's always difficult to, you know, specifically predict someone's future. Well,

01:26:28.120 it's impossible to predict someone's future behavior, but even someone where you may have

01:26:31.800 trends or patterns of, of past behavior, it's, uh, it's, it's very, very difficult to, uh, give an

01:26:37.380 adequate, uh, prediction or some kind of projection of when this person may, uh, may offend them.

01:26:41.840 Do you think he wanted to commit the perfect murder based on all of his education, getting a

01:26:45.580 beat? Do you think that was a goal? I think so. I think he thought he was smarter than certainly the

01:26:51.340 Moscow police department, perhaps Idaho state police. He didn't make me think the FBI would be

01:26:55.960 involved in it. I'm very proud of all those agencies working together, by the way. Uh, so

01:26:59.780 good for them. Uh, despite some of the criticism they took, I think, I think he, I think he truly

01:27:05.520 felt he was smarter than, uh, the, the police. He studied these particular people. He knows how

01:27:11.200 they're going to operate and he can beat them. And I'll tell you, Megan, what was a real big clue to

01:27:16.000 me was, um, around, uh, when the search warrant was, uh, I'm sorry, the arrest warrant was released

01:27:21.920 and some people did some research and there was a, um, I think his master's thesis, he put together

01:27:27.760 a number of questions, dozens of them. I believe that he was eliciting criminals or people who wanted

01:27:33.420 to commit crimes, asking them, how did it feel to commit this crime? How did it feel to want to

01:27:38.200 commit this crime? Did you get away with it? All these sort of interpersonal questions, which when I

01:27:43.080 first saw them, it hit me like a light bulb. I said, Oh my God, I, I prepared a list of 400 questions,

01:27:50.520 very similar to these. Each question have 10 subsections to it, along with a professor at

01:27:56.140 Bradford university in Virginia. And we would take this 400 question, uh, protocol questionnaire

01:28:01.840 out to the prisons. We would interview violent offenders. They're in prison for life. They're

01:28:07.080 not going anywhere. My thing back then was studying a sexual, uh, violent, uh, rapists and sexual 0.99

01:28:12.720 assaulters. And we would ask these questions over two days of these really bad dudes. And why did you 0.99

01:28:18.100 do it this way? Why did you do, why did you choose that victim? Why not choose this victim?

01:28:22.100 And the answers we would get helped us better, uh, analyze these, uh, these killers in the future

01:28:28.060 or these rapists in the future. And, uh, and it looks like that's exactly what, uh, BK was doing

01:28:33.780 in his earlier research. Uh, I think this was published by the professor that I worked with,

01:28:38.280 and I have no doubt that that material is available online. So he may have even borrowed from some of the

01:28:43.440 questions my team and I put together with the Bradford university professor to do this. So,

01:28:48.100 um, again, this is all coming together. I hate to give him any sort of this BK, any sort of a,

01:28:54.960 of a special, uh, clause or characteristic, uh, or, or place in our society. But I think he will be

01:29:02.020 an interesting person from a criminal justice and psychological perspective to study over the next

01:29:07.740 several years to a decade. Um, maybe someday he'll even confess and say exactly what he did. Maybe

01:29:13.860 he'll be like a, a Ted Bundy type of guy and sort of hold out, ask for different favors in prison.

01:29:18.820 If he gives a little more information about this, a little information about that. But I think he's

01:29:23.080 a manipulator. He knows how to manipulate people to some degree. He can be Mr. Smiley face, Mr. Nice

01:29:28.260 guy, what do you want to do? And guess what? That's just how Bundy operated. That's just how, uh,

01:29:32.880 how they can get into some of these places without raising suspicion and ultimately get away with

01:29:37.660 a crime, even if only lasted this guy seven weeks before he was arrested. Wow. Well, it's just so

01:29:44.560 disturbing to think about. Um, do you, I like him going on to become like one of those killers,

01:29:52.140 like BTK, who's still commenting from prison right now on his own crimes. And on this one,

01:29:56.620 um, I know you don't say his name. I've, I've long had a policy of not saying the names of

01:30:01.880 accused mass shooters, um, where the, where it's obvious that the killer's goal is to achieve

01:30:08.780 infamy. My policy has always been not to help. And I read that in the Gavin DeBecker book saying,

01:30:13.780 don't do it. The media has got to help us stop, uh, creating heroes out of these guys or at least

01:30:18.880 famous people out of these guys. But as a journalist, my policy has always been to name

01:30:23.140 any shooter for whom infamy is not the obvious goal. And so that's why I say my, and some of

01:30:29.580 my listeners and viewers have asked, cause they hear me not name mass shooters like the Buffalo

01:30:33.700 shooter or the Uvaldi and so on. But in this case, I have said his name. Why do you, why do you not

01:30:38.580 do that? Do you think infamy is this guy's goal? Yeah. And I will enumerate exactly what you said.

01:30:43.860 I know Gavin DeBecker, he's, he's lectured at the FBI Academy. I had read his book, uh,

01:30:47.760 the sum of, uh, the gift of fear. And, um, but I actually came up with this idea along with others,

01:30:52.920 just don't give these guys any sort of credit. I have a bit of a name, reputation, a positive one

01:30:57.420 out there in the criminal justice circles. And I don't want any future person think somehow, Oh,

01:31:02.020 Fitzgerald will go in the air and mention my name. That's really, you know, the Unabom guy. No,

01:31:05.760 they're not going to have that for me. The best I'll do is BK. I could have said, you know,

01:31:09.640 Idaho killer, but, uh, but I think our policies are, uh, are very similar, Megan. Obviously you're a

01:31:15.400 journalist. You got to get it out there once in a while. And I agree with putting it out initially

01:31:19.660 because that way people can come forward and say, Oh, by the way, I ran into this guy a month ago or

01:31:24.460 10 years ago. Here's what he did to me. And the case can be then straight. You don't have to keep

01:31:28.200 saying it over and over. Okay. I like that. You're, you're, you're pulling me over. Yeah.

01:31:31.340 There's no reason to just keep saying it over and over. BK works. People know it's not important to

01:31:35.000 keep saying his name over and over and it's, it's everywhere anyway. All right. Let me shift gears in the

01:31:38.760 time we have left to the U S Supreme court. Today, we found out that their leak investigation went nowhere.

01:31:44.160 The chief Marshall, uh, the Marshall of the U S Supreme court who is not an investigator. She's

01:31:50.220 a lawyer, uh, was not able to come up with anything though. She reportedly did her best at a thorough

01:31:55.940 investigation in interviewing some 100 plus people asking to see their, um, cell phones. It appears

01:32:03.800 she only, I, from what I read only asked to see their workplace laptops and phones. Um, but basically

01:32:10.880 then got the seal of approval from Michael Chertoff, another lawyer saying, yep, there's nothing really

01:32:15.660 more that can be done. Everyone said they didn't do it. They signed an affidavit with a one line

01:32:20.380 saying, I am not the Supreme court leaker. And you know, that's it. There's really no meaningful

01:32:25.020 avenues left to be pursued. And I argued at the top of the show. I don't believe that I'm not a

01:32:31.120 criminal investigator, but I feel like if we had brought the FBI in first, and certainly if we brought

01:32:35.760 them in now, there would be avenues they could pursue. And I feel like they could get to the bottom

01:32:40.180 of this half the, half the battle is in the interrogation and in understanding when somebody's lying to

01:32:45.260 you, which I guarantee you, Gail has no experience in or very little. So I'm biased and I've expressed

01:32:51.340 to you my bias on it. What, what's your thought? Yeah. Uh, the FBI should be brought into this. Um,

01:32:58.340 I'm going to take it a step farther. I'm going to say, but no FBI agents from Washington, DC.

01:33:02.300 I worked seven years in the New York office. Let's bring a team of those people down, 0.51

01:33:06.960 get politics, even the perception of politics out of it. Let's get a 10 person team agents,

01:33:12.220 analysts with computer backgrounds, good interview interrogation skills, and let every single person

01:33:17.160 they interview and they can interview all 100 again, whether they sign that affidavit or not

01:33:21.520 saying, I want you to, I want you to familiar size, familiar size yourself with USC 18, 1001. That's a,

01:33:28.260 uh, lying to a federal line to an FBI agent that if we catch you in a material lie, you are going to

01:33:34.160 be locked up. That's been in the news, of course, over the last few years, different cases, uh,

01:33:38.440 involving politics, whatever, but this will be very much appropriate in this case. Uh, and there's plenty

01:33:43.280 of great agents in the Washington field office, but unfortunately they have a sort of a tint of,

01:33:47.740 of, you know, being in the political, uh, you know, uh, stream there. So let's bring in New York

01:33:52.420 agents, let's them work this case and, uh, and let's go interview every single person. I used to go

01:33:58.020 around to companies in retirement, even still in the FBI, when some kind of a crime occurred, there's a

01:34:03.080 questionnaire we put together that they, they fill out individually, separately on their own. I don't

01:34:07.720 want to get too much into what the Q and A is, but, uh, it's remarkable that one or two answers come back

01:34:14.260 different than we'll say all 100. That's the person you focus in on. Doesn't mean you arrest them right

01:34:19.300 there when you say, you know what, maybe I will take a look at your home computer. Maybe I will

01:34:23.720 take a look at your, your, you know, your spouse's phone and let's put it together based on the

01:34:28.060 prioritization of this individual people. So yes, FBI should be involved, bring an agent set in New

01:34:33.620 York city and, um, and, uh, let them have a crack at these people. And I have a feeling, uh, with a threat

01:34:40.140 of jail time for the violation of that particular statute, uh, you, you get at least one person eventually

01:34:45.940 being honest. And there's training in, for FBI agents in this position on detecting deception.

01:34:52.620 Is there not? I mean, there, you'd be better off than Gail trying to figure out who's lying to you.

01:34:56.940 Uh, I, yes, we do have training in that regard. It's not a hard science per se, but an experienced

01:35:04.700 investigator and experience interviewer and interrogator certainly knows when individual,

01:35:09.500 uh, individuals are showing signs of, uh, inconsistency and, uh, body movement and all those

01:35:15.340 things that something isn't right with this person. And I've watched hundreds of these videos, uh,

01:35:20.840 after the fact, and I have, uh, I said, this guy's lying right at this five minute point, go back and

01:35:25.820 ask those questions again. Yes. They should have brought Phil Houston and my old pal who ran the

01:35:30.360 deception detection, uh, system at the CIA. And he is so good at this. I remember he, he's going to

01:35:37.340 upset the football fans, but he, uh, after Tom Brady denied deflate gate, he was like, MK, it's not true.

01:35:44.620 What he's saying is not true. Hillary Clinton. He had her after she denied the, the server. He is

01:35:50.260 like, he's great. Uh, the point is you guys professionals know how to do this. Gail with

01:35:55.340 all due respect, clearly does not James. Thank you. Please come back. All right, Megan. Thank you.

01:36:04.540 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.

01:36:14.620 Yeah, we'll be there.

01:36:30.460 Thanks.

01:36:32.480 Thank you.

01:36:32.820 Yeah.

01:36:33.260 Thank you.

01:36:33.940 Yeah.

01:36:35.100 Thanks.

01:36:36.520 Thank you.

01:36:37.700 Thank you.

01:36:37.880 Thank you.

01:36:39.040 Thank you.

01:36:39.960 Yeah.

01:36:41.060 .

The Megyn Kelly Show - January 20, 2023

SCOTUS Leaker Investigation Fails, Baldwin Charges, and Idaho Latest, with Ilya Shapiro, Viva Frei, Brian Entin, and James Fitzgerald ｜ Ep. 476

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