The Megyn Kelly Show - Sen. Josh Hawley on Big Tech Tyranny, Media Absurdity, and the State of the GOP

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00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.940 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.220 Today on the program, we've got Senator Josh Hawley,

00:00:49.260 Republican from Missouri.

00:00:51.960 And I'm excited to have him on.

00:00:53.880 We've been trying to get him on for a while.

00:00:55.400 And we were unsuccessful.

00:00:56.760 And finally, we got a yes.

00:00:58.500 And there's so much to go over with him.

00:01:00.900 You guys have seen how he's been taking a beating from the press.

00:01:04.400 But you also know the press is dishonest and hates Republicans, especially Trump-loving

00:01:08.060 Republicans.

00:01:08.900 So what are we to believe?

00:01:10.780 Is he the demon that the New York Times would have us believe going back and looking at his

00:01:14.740 middle school record?

00:01:15.560 Did he make legitimate mistakes that he wants to own or not, right?

00:01:21.380 Does he have any regrets about the whole Capitol Hill thing, the photo with his fist in the

00:01:25.560 air?

00:01:25.820 We're going to get into all of that.

00:01:27.600 And we're going to get into his fight against big tech, which is, I mean, they are all over

00:01:34.620 us right now, like white on rice.

00:01:37.000 Big tech won't get off of us.

00:01:39.160 And he's one of the few lawmakers willing to pay attention to it and stand up for us and say,

00:01:45.140 stop it.

00:01:46.280 You can't do this.

00:01:47.140 You can't control every aspect of American life and then punish, by the way, only one group of

00:01:52.020 people who have certain political stripes.

00:01:53.700 And he's doing something about it.

00:01:55.380 So we're going to talk about all that as well.

00:01:56.900 So he's coming on.

00:01:59.000 You're going to love this discussion.

00:02:01.260 And just by way of background, this is a guy who was born in Arkansas.

00:02:07.760 He was raised Methodist, but is now Evangelical Presbyterian.

00:02:12.680 Raised in Missouri.

00:02:13.920 He was high school valedictorian, went to Stanford undergrad, Yale Law School.

00:02:17.560 We'll get into all of that.

00:02:18.840 But his academic pedigree is absolute perfection.

00:02:22.740 And yet, if you talk to George Will, he is a domestic enemy.

00:02:28.320 So what's the truth?

00:02:30.200 We'll talk about it in one second.

00:02:31.700 But first this.

00:02:37.700 Senator, how are you?

00:02:39.560 I'm great.

00:02:40.220 How are you, Megan?

00:02:41.340 I'm good.

00:02:41.960 I'm so happy to talk to you.

00:02:43.020 Thank you for doing this.

00:02:44.380 Absolutely.

00:02:44.920 Thank you.

00:02:45.640 I have so much I want to go over with you.

00:02:48.440 Of course, I've seen you in the news over the past few months after everything that happened

00:02:52.460 in the Capitol.

00:02:53.220 And of course, every single report was bad.

00:02:56.320 You're not surprised.

00:02:57.300 You know the press.

00:02:58.180 So I'm going to ask you about that.

00:02:59.200 But there's so much that I want to get to with you because you're a really interesting

00:03:02.260 guy.

00:03:02.780 Now I've read your book.

00:03:04.100 Now I've looked into a lot of your positions.

00:03:06.540 I didn't know your background, I confess, prior to any of this.

00:03:08.820 Super smart guy.

00:03:09.840 Didn't know you clerked for the Chief Justice, Robert.

00:03:13.420 So lots to get to.

00:03:15.220 Let's just start with the unpleasantness in the Capitol so we can get through that and get

00:03:18.420 to some of the stuff that's more recent and I think a lot more interesting.

00:03:21.660 Here's my number one question.

00:03:23.100 Reading all the nasty press, it's like, he's terrible.

00:03:25.900 He's a seditionist.

00:03:26.880 He's, you know, all sorts of nasty things.

00:03:28.940 You've read them all.

00:03:29.600 Blood on his hands because he supported Trump and his challenge to the electoral results.

00:03:35.240 So let me start with this.

00:03:36.860 Sitting here now in May, do you have any regrets about any of that?

00:03:41.000 No, I don't regret what I did, Megan.

00:03:43.040 You know, what I did was object to the state of Pennsylvania.

00:03:45.980 I filed an objection to the state of Pennsylvania during the electoral certification process.

00:03:50.540 And this is something that our law explicitly permits and provides for.

00:03:54.280 And by the way, it's been done many times before.

00:03:56.580 The Democrats have done it in the last three presidential elections, right?

00:04:00.380 When a Republican was elected and they've actually objected to 11 different states.

00:04:04.900 And what happens is it triggers a debate.

00:04:06.980 And I thought we needed to have a debate about election integrity.

00:04:09.500 And maybe more importantly, my voters thought we needed to have a debate about election integrity.

00:04:14.260 And my job is to represent them in their views.

00:04:16.480 And that is exactly what I said I was going to do.

00:04:18.940 When I said, when I announced on December 30th, I think it was, I announced that I was going to file an objection.

00:04:24.560 I said, my voters have major concerns about election integrity.

00:04:29.220 And I'm going to voice those on the floor of the Senate.

00:04:32.600 That's what this process is for.

00:04:34.040 And I wasn't going to allow the riot, you know, the criminal riot, which was unbelievable and wrong and a violation of the law.

00:04:41.840 And I was a former prosecutor and say, I've got zero sympathy for anybody who breaks the law, assaults cops.

00:04:47.720 So all of those people who engaged in that ought to go to prison.

00:04:50.560 They ought to do the time.

00:04:51.540 But I wasn't going to allow that then to throw me off track and to change what I told my voters I would do.

00:04:57.980 Because here's the thing, Megan, it's my voters' concerns, my constituents' concerns don't have anything to do with the criminal psychos who came to the Capitol and tried to interrupt the very debate that I and others were attempting to have.

00:05:12.560 And so that's why I said, I'm going to, I said I was going to object.

00:05:16.040 I said I was going to register concerns about what happened in Pennsylvania and say more broadly that going forward, we need to talk about election integrity.

00:05:22.740 And that's what I did.

00:05:24.240 How much of this do you think is 2020 hindsight?

00:05:26.860 Because you're right, you are not the first to stand up and challenge that event where we, where the Congress basically accepts the certifications from the states and the vice president signs off on it and so on.

00:05:38.660 That's happened many, many times in the past.

00:05:40.400 Now, this was an unusual situation because President Trump himself was very vocal in making claims in many states about alleged fraud and really leading the charge and getting millions of people spun up.

00:05:53.380 It wasn't just like one of the sort of the normal Senate or lawmaking lunatics who loves to get up there and just push a bunch of BS, right?

00:06:02.780 It was like the president himself had been pushing it.

00:06:05.300 It had been a big story in the country.

00:06:06.440 This is one of the reasons why people say, well, it was different to have eight senators and 100 plus House members stand up and object, fed a fire that was already primed to explode.

00:06:20.420 That's how they differentiate.

00:06:21.640 Yeah, listen, I think that either either it's legitimate to object during the certification process or it's not.

00:06:27.920 And it doesn't change on who the president is.

00:06:29.860 It doesn't change on what the what the political fault lines are of the moment.

00:06:34.880 And, you know, it's interesting during the last impeachment, Megan, I was I was intrigued to listen to the impeachment managers tiptoe around this because, as you probably recall, at least one of those impeachment managers was himself an objector.

00:06:48.040 He had objected during a previous election to the state of Florida in his case.

00:06:53.020 And so the impeachment managers had to admit that, you know what, actually, there was nothing wrong with objecting.

00:06:58.160 And they even said about January 6th and the objections, they said nobody did anything wrong in objecting.

00:07:03.820 Their words were it's a bipartisan tradition to have a debate during the certification process.

00:07:08.320 That was all fine.

00:07:09.460 What was problematic, of course, and then they laid all the blame for the riot itself at the feet of President Trump.

00:07:14.140 I would put the blame for the riot at the feet of the rioters.

00:07:17.200 You know, if you want to if you want to come to the Capitol or to any federal building and assault cops and break the law, guess what?

00:07:24.780 You're a criminal.

00:07:25.800 You're going to jail.

00:07:26.720 You should be prosecuted the fullest extent of the law.

00:07:28.740 And I don't care what your rationale is.

00:07:30.260 I don't want to hear it.

00:07:31.360 You ought to go to jail.

00:07:32.120 And that's my view, whether it's rioters in Portland or Seattle or anywhere else, or if it's the United States Capitol, I don't care where it is.

00:07:39.660 So I do think that just to your question, Megan, I do think a lot of this is the left clearly, clearly hates the former president.

00:07:48.300 They want to discredit anybody who is in any way associated with him.

00:07:51.460 And the truth is, they really don't like Trump voters either.

00:07:54.080 And I was very clear from the time I said, I'm going to object.

00:07:58.220 And here's why that it was about the concerns of my voters raising, pointing out the in Pennsylvania, their failure to follow their own law.

00:08:06.420 You know, in Pennsylvania, we didn't get to the question of fraud or not.

00:08:09.020 They didn't follow their own law and their own.

00:08:11.220 That was the best objection.

00:08:12.580 What the Republicans were saying about Pennsylvania was the best objection they had in the wake of the, you know, the whole thing, in my view.

00:08:19.360 And you objected to that.

00:08:20.460 You objected to Arizona.

00:08:22.560 But the reason I ask you about 2020 hindsight is because the morning of that riot, I had Hugh Hewitt on the show and he's a recovering lawyer, just like I am.

00:08:31.300 Right.

00:08:31.480 And we both said, yeah, we're not really particularly this.

00:08:35.580 We're not incensed.

00:08:36.740 You know, like this has happened before.

00:08:38.060 A lot of lawmakers go in.

00:08:39.180 They object.

00:08:39.680 They don't think the system worked as it should.

00:08:41.780 They were calling it rigged, you know, when Trump got elected and went in and did what you did, took a stand and said, let's debate it.

00:08:47.760 We think it was rigged.

00:08:48.860 It didn't go anywhere.

00:08:49.940 It didn't go anywhere this time either.

00:08:52.340 And so I, for one, wasn't anticipating a riot on Capitol Hill.

00:08:56.660 And I give you the benefit of the doubt of saying you were not anticipating that either.

00:09:01.220 I think given now in hindsight, you know, I don't know.

00:09:05.520 I'm not sure if you would have done anything differently.

00:09:08.440 And I guess that's my question.

00:09:09.700 Would you have?

00:09:10.120 Well, Megan, I would not have in terms of actually raising an objection and saying that, listen, I think that what happened in Pennsylvania was wrong.

00:09:19.020 I think that we need to have a debate about election integrity, which we're having now, by the way, because the Democrats now are proposing to change all of these state laws in one fell swoop.

00:09:27.600 You know, they were trying to do it state by state.

00:09:29.520 Now they want to do it all at once.

00:09:31.120 I think we needed to have that debate on January 6th.

00:09:34.140 I think we need to have it now.

00:09:35.520 So in terms of my own objection on that day and doing what I did to represent the views of my constituents, I wouldn't change that.

00:09:44.700 Now, you know, obviously, I think that to your point about anticipating a riot, I mean, did I think there was going to be a riot?

00:09:50.660 Heck no, I did not.

00:09:52.100 And that's why I say that I've got zero sympathy for anybody who rioted for whatever reason they rioted for.

00:09:58.540 And, you know, you're certainly not going to no one's going to elicit any sympathy for any rioters for me, whether, again, it's whether it's the people on January 6th or whether it's the deranged psycho who killed a cop at the Capitol a few weeks ago, or whether it's rioters in the streets to Portland or elsewhere.

00:10:13.820 Whatever.

00:10:14.440 If you break the law and assault cops, you're going to jail or you should.

00:10:17.920 What do you make of now even President Biden is out there saying it was an insurrection caused by, quote, the big lie, the big lie storyline, right, that that, you know, Trump won, that there was massive electoral fraud, you know, that Biden had won legitimately.

00:10:36.200 And so even if he might not say you have blood on your hands, like some of the lovely press has said, you know, the new narrative is the big lie is blameable on everybody who helped perpetuate questions about whether there was fraud.

00:10:51.540 And the big lie is what led to that riot.

00:10:55.140 Yeah, I think that is itself a lie.

00:10:56.880 You've seen Joe Biden tell a lot of lies of his own about election integrity measures.

00:11:00.840 I mean, he's saying now that in Georgia, for instance, which is a set of election integrity reforms that he has called Jim Crow on steroids.

00:11:09.860 That's a lie.

00:11:11.040 I think the effort, Megan, that you just referenced to tie anybody who wants to talk about election integrity, anybody who wants to raise some of the irregularities like in Pennsylvania in the last election, then the left strategy is to say, oh, you are a violent criminal.

00:11:26.320 There's no qualitative difference between you and the criminals who came into the Capitol.

00:11:32.520 And that's not only wrong, it is I think it's dangerous because what it tells the 75 million people in this country who voted for Donald Trump and many, many, many, many of whom have concerns about election integrity.

00:11:45.180 What it tells them is that your voice cannot be heard in the political process and there's no place for you in the political process.

00:11:51.440 That's dangerous. We have, you know, as I said, actually on the night of January 6th, we have this process of objection, debate, vote.

00:12:00.020 We have that as part of the certification process.

00:12:02.400 So people's concerns can be aired democratically, peacefully.

00:12:06.560 And so then we hear them, we resolve them, we move on.

00:12:10.180 And I think what concerns me about Mr.

00:12:12.160 Unity, Joe Biden, is these relentless efforts to tear apart the country by basically delegitimizing anybody who disagrees with them.

00:12:19.340 And that's what this really is. You know, if you disagree with me, you need to be silenced.

00:12:23.900 And that is not a recipe for unity. It's not real leadership.

00:12:28.680 And I think it's dangerous.

00:12:29.880 I'm laughing at your Mr. Unity because here was Biden not long after the Capitol riot.

00:12:34.840 I think the American public has a real good, clear look at who they are.

00:12:39.580 They're part of the big lie.

00:12:41.980 You know, Goebbels and the great lie.

00:12:43.800 You keep repeating the lie, repeating the lie.

00:12:45.920 So that's you and Cruz, you're Nazis, you're employing Nazi tactics to say that you wanted to look into the fraud, the allegations of fraud.

00:12:57.540 Now, I know you don't agree with Joe Biden.

00:12:59.940 I know that's outrageous.

00:13:01.400 But let me put it to you this way.

00:13:04.620 I maintain an open mind on the electoral challenges.

00:13:07.160 I have no idea whether the systems in each state are sound and trustworthy or not.

00:13:10.880 And I actually had a lot of faith in Sidney Powell prior to this event.

00:13:14.180 I do not now.

00:13:16.680 But they lost.

00:13:18.340 You know, Trump lost 60 plus electoral challenges that he filed.

00:13:22.180 And when Giuliani was asked specifically in court, let me see the evidence of fraud.

00:13:26.860 When he was given the chance for a hearing on it, you know, a lot of the courts kicked him out saying, you don't have standing.

00:13:30.760 But he was offered the chance in more than one court to actually present his evidence of fraud.

00:13:36.020 And he said, we don't have it.

00:13:38.000 This isn't a fraud.

00:13:38.660 We're not alleging fraud.

00:13:39.560 So before the microphones, he said fraud.

00:13:41.260 Before the judges, he said something different.

00:13:43.260 And after that, and he lost time after time with Republican appointed judges at the helm and with Democrat, you know, judges as well.

00:13:50.840 I said, OK, it's time to move on.

00:13:52.820 And yet you did still object after that.

00:13:55.160 And you even objected even after the riot.

00:13:57.200 Some of the senators went back in there and said, you know what, I'm out.

00:13:59.200 I'm done.

00:14:00.220 People have just been killed on Capitol Hill.

00:14:02.460 I'm not going to keep pushing this.

00:14:03.880 And you didn't.

00:14:04.540 You continue to push it.

00:14:06.020 And that's where it starts to get uncomfortable.

00:14:08.860 Yeah, just to the point about fraud, Megan, just to go back to that.

00:14:11.820 This is why in my objection to Pennsylvania, what I said that I was objecting to and cited was not any allegations of fraud one way or the other, which, you know, I don't know about it.

00:14:23.580 Look, I'm not I'm not currently a prosecutor.

00:14:25.800 I haven't litigated those claims.

00:14:27.360 I'm very aware of the court record that you cited in terms of the claims that were litigated.

00:14:31.380 My objection on Pennsylvania had to do with the fact two things.

00:14:35.540 Number one, that the state's constitution does not permit universal mail-in balloting, but the state of Pennsylvania did it anyway.

00:14:43.300 I know all that.

00:14:43.980 I agree with that.

00:14:44.880 But it was shot down in court like that.

00:14:46.600 That legal challenge played out and not in your favor.

00:14:48.900 So it's like at some point you got to accept the way the legal system works.

00:14:53.160 Yeah, that's an interesting one, Megan, because on that Pennsylvania challenge, actually, it was not heard on the merits.

00:14:58.780 It's only heard on the merits by the initial court, by the trial court, who said that there was a constitutional problem.

00:15:03.220 And then on appeal to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, which you remember is that's an elected court.

00:15:08.220 So it's a partisan court.

00:15:09.340 That court refused to hear the challenge.

00:15:12.500 They just dismissed it on the doctrine of latches.

00:15:15.000 You know, so basically they said it wasn't timely.

00:15:17.160 And that itself was not you, but they had months and months and months to raise these questions.

00:15:23.340 Yeah, that was that was their argument, which I think probably is not right factually.

00:15:26.640 But the bigger point of that, Megan, is that their own doctrine, Pennsylvania, their own doctrine says that when there's a constitutional challenge to a law, the doctrine of latches doesn't apply.

00:15:35.100 I mean, we're really in the weeds now.

00:15:36.120 But here's the point is that the substance of that claim about the constitutionality of Pennsylvania's mail and balloting statute was never resolved by their Supreme Court.

00:15:46.640 And could it be?

00:15:47.580 You know, that's the court of last resort.

00:15:49.260 And so they dismissed it.

00:15:50.500 And then that's it.

00:15:51.240 You know, there's no other place to go.

00:15:52.300 And that's why I think that is a that is a fit subject to raise to say, listen, there's this.

00:15:58.700 This is weird.

00:15:59.760 There's a problem here.

00:16:00.680 And then you had also, of course, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court intervening further in the law, changing the time for the return of ballots.

00:16:06.780 Justice Thomas wrote about this in his dissent from denial of cert.

00:16:10.880 You know, I agree with him.

00:16:11.580 I thought that was right.

00:16:12.340 And that was another reason to.

00:16:13.680 I get it.

00:16:14.060 I get it.

00:16:14.460 And look, they give you a mechanism as a U.S.

00:16:16.900 senator, as long as you can get somebody on the House side to to agree to object to even notwithstanding what the courts have said.

00:16:22.240 To go in there on your day when the certified electoral votes are counted and the vice president is supposed to sort of rubber stamp it.

00:16:29.780 They they're that mechanism.

00:16:31.460 I get it exists for a reason.

00:16:32.840 You're still allowed to go in there and say, I, I object.

00:16:35.600 I think this is wrong.

00:16:36.700 I think there's been a problem and it's happened repeatedly.

00:16:38.880 So I on paper, I feel like I.

00:16:42.520 He had the right to do it, but I also like where they soften me.

00:16:46.180 I'll just tell you as a, you know, whatever, for whatever it's worth, a journalist, a lawyer, a pundit where they soften me is after the riot.

00:16:51.960 Going back there and staying on it.

00:16:53.700 I mean, at that point, did you feel at all like, oh, I can't do this.

00:16:59.760 Right.

00:16:59.980 Like people, this has gotten out of hand.

00:17:02.120 Right.

00:17:02.480 Like we let it play out in the courts.

00:17:04.420 We the state certified Republican states certified.

00:17:07.660 Like at that point, did you have any pause?

00:17:10.480 Like think to yourself, I got to put an end to this.

00:17:13.380 And my view on that, Megan, was that if, if I changed course at that point and did something different than what I had said to my voters, I was going to do, it would be number one, allowing the criminal rioters to determine my own course of action.

00:17:27.280 And it would also be, it would also seem to indicate to me, at least that, well, actually I wasn't ever that serious about the objection anyway.

00:17:33.680 You know, it would, it would just be like, yeah, you know, now that I thought about a little bit more, actually, nevermind.

00:17:38.600 I don't, I'm not really that interested.

00:17:40.780 Like this.

00:17:41.200 And that's, that's on my view.

00:17:42.280 I thought it was a serious issue that deserved to be raised.

00:17:45.060 I thought my voters deserved to have it raised.

00:17:47.280 And frankly, you know, as I said at the time, when I first announced I was going to object, I don't know what I would have told my voters at home if I didn't use the one point of the process I had to try and have a debate about this.

00:18:00.200 That's fascinating.

00:18:01.340 I never thought about that, that, that maybe the people who went back in and changed their position, the ones who were going to object, that it was a telegraph, that they, they never really meant it to begin with.

00:18:14.360 That they were trying to appease Trump or that they were just trying to, you know, sort of get to the right of certain people in the party.

00:18:19.560 I never considered it like that.

00:18:21.740 Well, and I don't, and I don't mean by that, Megan, to, to speak to anybody else's motives, but you asked me about mine.

00:18:26.320 I get it.

00:18:26.960 Yeah.

00:18:27.200 And just my own and just what I was thinking on, on the day, you know, as we, as we sat and waited as the, as the police officers and then the, the National Guard, as they struggled to inject those criminals, putting themselves in harm's way to do it.

00:18:41.780 You know, as we sat there and I, I thought about this, you know, just like you asked me, I thought through it.

00:18:46.640 And what I thought was, listen, I think that what happened in Pennsylvania is something that we should talk about and has validity, regardless of what these thugs are doing.

00:18:56.580 And I just thought, again, if I, if I, if I change course now, people are going to say, oh, well this, you know, you never really believed that this was a stunt and now it's no longer serviceable to you.

00:19:06.280 So you're just going to move on.

00:19:07.560 And that's just not, that's not the case.

00:19:09.080 I thought, listen, I told my voters, I do it.

00:19:10.740 I'll do it.

00:19:11.780 All right.

00:19:12.040 Let's talk about the photograph because that's, I mean, people really fixated on that.

00:19:16.240 I never totally understood the fix.

00:19:17.900 I mean, I, they don't like you, you're a Republican and you're a Trump supporter.

00:19:20.920 So like that explains a lot of the dislike, but there's that photograph of you with the fist up as you walk past the, what were then protesters.

00:19:28.100 This is what nobody points out.

00:19:29.460 Like you weren't, there wasn't an assault on police officers going on and you stuck your fist in the air.

00:19:35.380 I mean, like I don't, the media is so dishonest.

00:19:37.420 I was like, he saw protesters protest is American.

00:19:40.800 Haven't they been telling us that all summer?

00:19:42.500 Like, I don't mean to give you your defense up front, but I, I want to say, I thought that was a misrepresentation of what you meant to communicate, but why don't, I'll give you the chance to set the record straight on that.

00:19:53.380 Well, listen, that was, yeah, that, that, uh, that photo was taken as I, as I was walking over to the house chamber there on the, I guess it's the East side of the Capitol, um, of that morning or shortly afternoon on the, on the day.

00:20:05.500 And to your point, what we had been were, I mean, there were a lot of, there were tens of thousands of demonstrators in the city and I had, I had, you know, just driven into the city and I'd seen them everywhere.

00:20:13.600 And so as we drove up there, uh, and, and got to the, to, um, the Capitol, they were, uh, standing on, they were well off the plaza.

00:20:20.940 The police had barricaded them off the plaza and they were standing there behind the barricades peacefully waving American flags.

00:20:28.500 And, uh, as I was walking, I waved to him.

00:20:30.600 Some of them started to call out my name.

00:20:31.980 So I waved to him and I gave him, I think the thumbs up and I pumped my fist at him.

00:20:35.520 And, and, uh, you know, that was like, Hey, how, how's it going?

00:20:39.060 And, uh, and good for you for being here because it is their first amendment, right?

00:20:42.300 It is their first amendment, right?

00:20:43.700 To demonstrate it is their first amendment, right?

00:20:46.260 To gather, uh, were any of those folks who, who I saw there, did any of them go on to riot?

00:20:51.980 I have no idea if they did.

00:20:53.440 I hope they're being prosecuted.

00:20:54.840 I will say, because I will, I will defend the right of anybody to gather and demonstrate peacefully in accordance with the first amendment.

00:21:03.540 I did that for the BLM protesters who I did not agree with this past summer, but I said over and over, there's a difference between the folks who are gathered peacefully, lawfully,

00:21:11.500 and those who are assaulting cops.

00:21:13.440 That was true of them.

00:21:14.720 It was true of the folks on January 6th.

00:21:17.060 It's going to be true going forward.

00:21:18.540 I mean, this isn't the last time we'll have a demonstration in America and that's fine, but we've got to draw a hard line between folks who demonstrate whether we like them or not.

00:21:27.420 And those who, uh, commit acts of violence.

00:21:30.480 And I will maintain that line.

00:21:32.360 No matter what.

00:21:33.340 They never show the wide shot of that photograph.

00:21:35.400 It's always just the closeup of you with the fist, like the wide shot.

00:21:38.140 But I, I'm, I'm going to guess, cause I, I know what time of day it was, uh, would not have shown anybody storming the Capitol or assaulting anybody.

00:21:46.040 It's like, there's no distinction in the media.

00:21:48.760 Um, and of course now most of us expect that now.

00:21:51.880 Okay.

00:21:52.080 This is what I read in preparation for today's interview.

00:21:54.960 Forgive me for sounding like a middle school, uh, sixth grader, but now they say no, no one wants to work with you.

00:22:01.560 No one wants to be your friend.

00:22:02.680 You're too toxic.

00:22:03.380 You can't get people to sign onto your bills.

00:22:05.660 It's like a bunch of mean girls now for you in the Senate, you and Cruz, although Cruz has been in that boat for a long time.

00:22:12.080 Um, I launched the Kelly file incidentally in 2013 with him.

00:22:16.080 He was my first guest.

00:22:16.960 And my very first question on that show was, um, what's it like to be the most hated man in America?

00:22:21.660 So some things never change, right?

00:22:23.360 The more they stay the same, the more they change, whatever the vice versa.

00:22:26.020 So what does it feel like for you there day to day?

00:22:29.780 It feels like for me, Megan, just doing my job.

00:22:32.420 And, you know, these, the, the left, uh, my, my observation about the left is, and I've only been in the Senate for two years.

00:22:37.940 So I don't, I don't have the, the, uh, depth of, of experience on this that others like Senator Cruz might have.

00:22:43.460 But my observation is, is that when the left needs your vote, then they're all about bipartisanship.

00:22:49.620 When they don't need your votes, then they couldn't care less about it.

00:22:52.420 And you see that with all that they're doing right now.

00:22:54.860 I mean, they, they passed their massive, uh, COVID quote unquote COVID package, which was really had very little to do with COVID with not a, any support from Republicans.

00:23:03.740 I guess one Republican Senator ended up voting for it, but no bipartisanship whatsoever.

00:23:07.400 Cause they use reconciliation.

00:23:08.640 They didn't need any Republicans.

00:23:09.900 They didn't want the help.

00:23:11.060 They didn't need the help.

00:23:12.380 Same deal on infrastructure.

00:23:13.620 If they could pass it without us, they absolutely would.

00:23:16.620 If they could get their caucus unified, they would absolutely steamroll us.

00:23:20.160 So, you know, to me, they can use whatever excuse they want.

00:23:24.460 Uh, I have, my history is I will work with anybody.

00:23:27.820 And I mean, anybody, if it is good for the people of my state, I just did it with Senator Sanders, Bernie Sanders.

00:23:33.260 We worked together on relief, uh, support direct relief payments, uh, this past December for folks who needed them and, uh, got that done.

00:23:40.460 And, you know, Bernie and I disagree on, on probably most everything, but, uh, on that issue, which was important for working families in my state, I was delighted to work with them and, and I'll, I'll work with anybody going forward.

00:23:53.420 And I look forward to it.

00:23:55.060 Okay.

00:23:55.140 Left wing question, not actual left wing and as in liver, I guess like left field is what I was looking for.

00:23:59.800 Left field.

00:24:00.600 Did you hear it all from chief justice Roberts after January 6th?

00:24:04.700 As I, I mean, I assume he was a mentor to you.

00:24:06.640 I have not talked to the chief justice, uh, since then, but I don't talk to the chief justice, uh, frequently, partly, mostly Megan out of, out of respect for his role.

00:24:15.900 And, and, uh, and for mine, you know, the chief justice is really, really careful, never, ever to talk about politics, never, ever to talk about, of course, never to talk about cases, uh, even past cases.

00:24:27.300 And I've always tried to respect the boundaries of that.

00:24:30.160 So he's, you know, I will just say that, um, I loved working for chief justice Roberts.

00:24:34.200 He was a great boss.

00:24:35.920 Um, you know, I, I don't agree with every opinion he writes, uh, by long shot.

00:24:40.700 And I suspected if you, uh, you know, said to him, like, do you agree with all Josh Hawley's positions?

00:24:45.460 I bet he'd say no, but, but he's, he's careful to avoid the political talk.

00:24:49.260 And I don't try to, I'd never try to put him in a position where he has to comment.

00:24:52.620 Were you, you weren't clerking for him when they decided Obamacare, were you?

00:24:56.160 That was, that was later after you, I guess.

00:24:58.500 Yeah, that was after my time.

00:24:59.940 That was after my time.

00:25:01.140 Good for you.

00:25:02.800 You ran a field there.

00:25:04.640 Um, I told my audience, I saw him at this play once in Manhattan.

00:25:07.940 It was one of those, these weird things where you can interact, the actors, the cast interacts

00:25:11.940 with the audience.

00:25:12.700 And so you're kind of part of the play.

00:25:14.220 And he was there as an audience member.

00:25:16.160 And I was there as an, as an audience.

00:25:17.660 And I, and I always deeply admired the guy.

00:25:19.640 I really did.

00:25:20.100 I thought he was just, he's like chiseled out of the crib to be chief justice, though.

00:25:24.780 His jurisprudence has been surprisingly more to the left than I expected.

00:25:29.680 Anyway, I, I went over, I told him I was a big fan.

00:25:32.000 He said, oh, you're the one.

00:25:33.400 I said, definitely am.

00:25:35.220 I said, uh, however, Obamacare was not a principled decision.

00:25:38.180 It was not a principled decision.

00:25:40.400 Yeah.

00:25:40.980 Yeah.

00:25:41.820 Well, you know, honey, honey, let's go.

00:25:45.240 It's the chief justice of the United States.

00:25:47.580 Let's move on.

00:25:47.920 He's probably used to it.

00:25:49.080 He's probably used to it.

00:25:50.120 He's definitely used to it.

00:25:51.380 Exactly.

00:25:51.860 And he, and weirdly, he wasn't out to please me.

00:25:53.840 So, um, I learned that too, in that moment.

00:25:56.340 Um, but I, I still respect the guy.

00:25:58.600 I can't hate chief justice Roberts.

00:26:00.220 I think he's a good, good man.

00:26:01.440 I don't think he's been, you know, he's certainly not a Scalia, but, um, I understand he's got

00:26:05.820 a bigger responsibility than Scalia had in a way.

00:26:07.760 Cause he's, he's the chief.

00:26:08.960 He's got to think about the court too.

00:26:10.280 Although maybe too much.

00:26:11.620 I think he's been doing a little too much of that.

00:26:13.180 What do you think?

00:26:13.600 Well, my own view is, is that the court, I think, despite the best efforts of, of the

00:26:18.340 chief justice and maybe others to try and quote unquote, keep it out of politics.

00:26:21.420 I really think that from the Obamacare decision forward, the court has become more and more

00:26:25.540 enmeshed in politics because it, it, with the Obamacare decision, it turned it into a

00:26:30.180 political football.

00:26:31.020 My own view is that, listen, you gotta, you've got to read the statute and enforce the statute

00:26:35.060 as it's written, even if it's uncomfortable.

00:26:37.320 And, uh, you know, with, with Obamacare and the individual mandate, I think that, you know,

00:26:42.320 if the individual mandate is unconstitutional, then it's unconstitutional and, and you don't

00:26:47.120 rewrite the statute to try to make it something that it isn't, you know, I mean, you don't

00:26:50.400 say it's a tax or it's this or that.

00:26:52.100 If it's unconstitutional, hold it's unconstitutional.

00:26:54.720 Yeah.

00:26:54.900 That's what he did.

00:26:55.880 He found a way to justify it.

00:26:57.040 They said it was not allowable under the Congress's interstate power, uh, it's, it's

00:27:02.920 power to regulate interstate commerce, but it was, it was okay.

00:27:05.900 According to Roberts under the tax clause, which was just made up.

00:27:10.420 Okay.

00:27:10.780 Enough bashing on the chief justice, but let me finish it up with this, this question.

00:27:15.320 Um, so I have to ask you, do you think that Biden is an illegitimate president right now?

00:27:22.500 No, I think he's the duly elected president of the United States.

00:27:25.200 And I think that, listen, we've got to right now for those folks like me and, and the voters

00:27:32.200 that I represent who have profound concerns about where he is leading the country, what

00:27:37.760 we've got to do is, is use all of the channels available to us to a put forward an alternative

00:27:42.320 vision and be try to, to stop his agenda and to enact something better.

00:27:46.500 And that's what I try to do.

00:27:47.400 So onward, onward is your message to people.

00:27:50.300 Onward.

00:27:50.720 That's right.

00:27:51.140 In one second, we're going to ask the Senator about Liz Cheney, who is making all sorts of

00:27:56.840 dire predictions about Senator Hawley's career and, uh, career prospects.

00:28:01.680 What does he think of her?

00:28:03.180 And I'm also going to ask him about when rhetorical attacks turn into something much more dangerous

00:28:09.480 when your wife and your newborn child are at home and the mob comes, then what?

00:28:15.840 And it happened to his family and we'll get into it next.

00:28:19.820 First, this.

00:28:23.560 I'm dying to get to this.

00:28:25.120 Uh, and I'm going to get to this in a sec of the New York times report on, on little

00:28:28.620 baby, Josh Hawley, which is spectacular.

00:28:31.720 They looked into your past as back as far back as when you were 12, which is just amazing.

00:28:36.940 But one of the things they said, which I'll ask you about is that, um, you had said something

00:28:41.400 in, in people's, in your eighth grade yearbook.

00:28:43.840 Yes, we've seen it, or at least the New York times says that you were going to, it was

00:28:47.200 said something like Josh Hawley, 2024.

00:28:49.280 Is that, is that true?

00:28:50.920 Do, are we likely to see that?

00:28:52.940 I don't think so.

00:28:53.780 Megan, I certainly have no, I don't have the precise clarity on everything I did when I

00:28:58.780 was 12, but, uh, I don't certainly don't remember planning to run for president.

00:29:02.560 By the way, you just said the New York times has seen it.

00:29:04.180 They haven't seen it.

00:29:05.080 Actually, this was our question to them.

00:29:06.960 We're like, Oh really?

00:29:08.200 The show us the yearbook.

00:29:09.320 They couldn't show it to us.

00:29:10.420 Was it just your middle school principal giving you up?

00:29:12.780 Uh, it was, I don't, it's middle, middle school classmates.

00:29:15.900 You can't make this stuff up.

00:29:17.100 I think one classmate.

00:29:18.880 Yeah.

00:29:19.120 It's just like this pure absurdity of everything in that sentence is we're now back to talking

00:29:23.320 about, yeah, somebody who knew me in middle school who says that, you know, well, I can't

00:29:28.900 believe that he became such a conservative.

00:29:30.960 Oh, so horrible.

00:29:32.320 You know, wait, there's more.

00:29:33.360 I want to get to that.

00:29:34.100 That's my very next topic.

00:29:35.200 But first, let me just finish it out with, uh, Liz Cheney.

00:29:37.920 She says you've disqualified yourself from running for president because of all the stuff we just

00:29:42.080 talked about.

00:29:42.780 What do you think?

00:29:43.340 What do you say to her?

00:29:44.280 Well, I just, you know, I don't, I don't know her personally.

00:29:47.380 I think she's sort of spiraling.

00:29:49.680 If you look at, uh, the things that she's saying and the claims that she's making, uh,

00:29:54.200 you know, I, I would just say that I think the viewpoints that she represents Megan, not,

00:29:59.360 not just as regards to the former president, but in her support for, uh, these endless wars.

00:30:04.440 I mean, she's somebody who's never met a war that she didn't love.

00:30:07.260 I just think that she's out of step with Republican voters and, you know, I'm not one of her voters.

00:30:11.100 So that's, that'll be their choice to make.

00:30:13.120 I'm not a member of the house conference, you know, in terms of her leadership position,

00:30:16.280 that's their choice to make.

00:30:17.340 But I, I just think that this is somebody who does not really represent, uh, Republicans.

00:30:23.740 And so what do you think?

00:30:25.480 2024, do you think it'll be Trump?

00:30:28.160 Well, I don't know.

00:30:28.900 I don't know what he, what he wants to do.

00:30:30.820 Megan, I have, I have no insight into that at all.

00:30:32.580 Well, I do think that if he runs, I think he will be the nominee.

00:30:35.700 Uh, I mean, I, I, I just think that's pretty clear.

00:30:37.860 Will he run or not?

00:30:38.740 I don't know.

00:30:39.420 I don't know.

00:30:39.840 I haven't asked him.

00:30:40.960 And, uh, who else could you get behind?

00:30:43.160 Oh gosh.

00:30:43.840 I mean, um, I imagine, let me put it this way.

00:30:46.260 I imagine if the former president does not run, there will be all kinds of folks, uh,

00:30:51.120 who are interested in the nomination.

00:30:52.640 And I'll just have to, like every other Republican voter at that point, I'll have to take stock

00:30:56.900 of who that is and, and make my decision then, but we'll see.

00:30:59.380 There's a lot of time.

00:31:00.620 You don't see yourself on that list.

00:31:02.580 No, ma'am.

00:31:03.180 No, I do not.

00:31:04.640 In 2024, uh, I am up for election in 24, but 2024, but it's back in the state of Missouri.

00:31:09.960 And, uh, I hope that the people of Missouri will, uh, want me to continue to serve in the

00:31:14.680 United States Senate.

00:31:16.020 Okay.

00:31:16.480 So here's where people lose their, like the, the press is so dishonest and, and some, some

00:31:21.380 of these lawmakers on the left, I have been really gross and dishonest in the wake of the

00:31:26.520 whole Capitol Hill thing.

00:31:27.300 Democratic senators filed an ethics complaint against you for doing the very thing, as we

00:31:31.900 just pointed out, many have done before you filed one right back, which was smart, right?

00:31:36.040 Like, um, this lunatic fringe, some 6,000 attorneys and law students pushing for your disbarment

00:31:44.320 as an attorney.

00:31:45.080 Now, just so the viewers know, as I understand it, you went to Stanford undergrad, you went

00:31:48.980 to Yale law school, you clerked for the 10th circuit, you clerked for the chief justice.

00:31:53.620 You had a very nice job with a white shoe firm in private practice and you ran for office,

00:31:57.940 uh, attorney general in Missouri and so on.

00:31:59.880 Um, they want you to be disbarred and there's another contingent that wants Yale to actually

00:32:06.200 revoke your logic.

00:32:09.100 Yes.

00:32:09.700 Yes.

00:32:10.020 I'm scared of how stupid the, uh, the next generation of lawyers is going to be.

00:32:14.160 They're just stupid.

00:32:14.920 They're doing the same thing.

00:32:15.600 Ted Cruz at Harvard.

00:32:16.800 They are.

00:32:17.420 Yeah, they are.

00:32:17.880 And, and welcome to the new left, Megan, which is that if you do not agree to tow the party

00:32:23.260 line on every issue that they deem important, then they will cast you out into the outer

00:32:27.160 darkness where there's wailing and gnashing of teeth.

00:32:29.260 I mean, this is what they want, right?

00:32:31.520 They want to say, here's what counts as legitimate speech.

00:32:34.080 And here's not, it doesn't matter by the way that the laws of the United States provide

00:32:39.100 for objections during the electoral certification process is due.

00:32:41.860 And I've already talked about it.

00:32:42.620 It doesn't matter that Democrats have done this, but none of that matters.

00:32:44.820 What matters is, is that we didn't like what you said, Josh.

00:32:47.100 And so therefore we want you silenced.

00:32:48.940 We want you punished.

00:32:50.280 We want you, we want you expelled.

00:32:52.800 And it is absolutely, it is outrageous.

00:32:55.600 It's abusive in the case of the, of the phony ethics complaint that you mentioned.

00:32:59.260 I have never heard of a more transparently abusive attempt to leverage an ethics process

00:33:07.040 to punish a colleague because you didn't like his position and to do it, by the way,

00:33:12.060 it appears in coordination with dark money groups, because all I know is this, as soon

00:33:15.940 as they filed their phony ethics complaints, I mean, as soon as they filed it, all of these

00:33:19.820 lefty dark money groups seem to already know about it and began a campaign to amplify it.

00:33:24.040 I mean, that's, that's really dark money group.

00:33:26.400 What does that mean?

00:33:26.840 Oh, you know, like we're talking like, um, uh, the Lincoln project, for instance, is

00:33:30.260 a dark money group.

00:33:30.880 You don't know where their money comes from.

00:33:32.300 Very dark.

00:33:33.500 Very dark.

00:33:34.420 Right.

00:33:34.740 Exactly.

00:33:35.320 In their case.

00:33:36.220 So, you know, this is, it is an abusive effort to punish and silence speech.

00:33:42.300 They don't like.

00:33:43.260 And I can just tell you, this is why 75 million Americans who supported the former president

00:33:49.980 and who support conservatives, they feel like when they see this stuff, they're like, man,

00:33:55.200 first they're coming for Josh and then they're coming for me.

00:33:57.700 And that's one of the reasons that my job is I was elected to this, right?

00:34:00.600 So I don't, I don't feel sorry for myself at all.

00:34:02.440 This is my job.

00:34:03.120 My job is to stand in there and take the heat.

00:34:04.900 I'm, I'm, if I take a position that people don't like, I've got to own that position.

00:34:09.380 We're just talking about that in terms of my position on objection.

00:34:11.840 You know, I, I, I object to the electoral college.

00:34:13.660 I got to own that, you know, and I say, here's why, and I got to own it.

00:34:16.280 So the coming after me, that's fine.

00:34:18.760 I expect that, but I'm not going to give into it.

00:34:20.760 I'm not going to accept their lies.

00:34:22.380 I'm not going to agree to be canceled by them because if I do, then it will go on to

00:34:27.060 say, okay, right.

00:34:27.700 And everybody who is like Josh, everybody who agrees with him, they all ought to be delegitimized

00:34:32.620 too.

00:34:32.940 They ought to be shut up in silence too.

00:34:35.160 And I'm telling you, that's not democratic.

00:34:37.420 That's not American.

00:34:38.500 It's crazy.

00:34:39.340 It's this cancel culture craziness.

00:34:41.360 And we've got to say no to it.

00:34:43.060 Okay.

00:34:43.500 So I, I believe you tell me if you disagree, none of those is going anywhere.

00:34:47.520 You're not going to be disbarred.

00:34:48.500 You're not going to have your Yale degree taken away and you're not, the ethics complaint

00:34:52.760 is not going to go anywhere.

00:34:53.600 Although that's the one, I guess that has the most potential traction because it's the,

00:34:57.860 the, the Senate, man, it's not even a majority of Democrats, but they've got Kamala Harris.

00:35:02.320 I mean, how does that work?

00:35:03.160 What could the Democrats, because they control the ethics committee, do you think you would be

00:35:07.300 censured or how does that, how's that going to go out?

00:35:09.000 Uh, the committees are all 50, 50, Megan, in terms of just the, the, uh, makeup of the,

00:35:13.860 of the Senate.

00:35:14.560 Um, the ethics committee is, is supposed to be, um, technically nonpartisan and obviously

00:35:19.360 it's partisan elected people are on it, but they're supposed to act in a nonpartisan manner.

00:35:22.840 But to your question, this stuff is not going to go anywhere because it's, it's all fake

00:35:28.080 and phony.

00:35:28.500 And I will, I will absolutely fight it every step of the way, but I don't think that they,

00:35:33.780 the senators, for instance, who filed that complaint, I don't think they expected it

00:35:37.080 to go anywhere.

00:35:37.580 They wanted to try and grandstand.

00:35:39.960 They wanted to try and make a point and, and they want, and they didn't care that they

00:35:44.400 abused the ethics process to do it.

00:35:46.740 And you saw, you know, uh, uh, you saw senators on both sides and including Diane Feinstein,

00:35:51.300 who said immediately when they filed that complaint, she said, I'm, whoa, I'm, I'm opposed

00:35:55.020 to this.

00:35:55.440 This is wrong.

00:35:56.180 Like if you disagree with him, sure.

00:35:57.900 You can say, I disagree with him.

00:35:59.440 You can say, sure.

00:36:00.200 I thought that was a bad judgment call, but you don't go and try to try to use the ethics

00:36:04.680 process to, to investigate and harm and censor someone because you disagree with them politically.

00:36:10.160 Of course, many Republicans, uh, I think all Republicans, uh, feel the same way.

00:36:15.300 So this is, again, this, this is part of the cancel effort of the left.

00:36:20.200 And if you get into it, Megan, here's the thing.

00:36:22.220 If you give into it, then they will redouble the pressure and they will redouble their efforts

00:36:26.840 to silence you.

00:36:27.720 You've got to take that stand on principle and say, this is wrong.

00:36:31.040 These are lies and I'm not going to get into it.

00:36:34.060 Yeah.

00:36:34.420 Well, I, that's why I liked you that you filed one right back because the only way to fight

00:36:37.580 these bullies who try to come after you when it's above, I mean, I love accountability

00:36:41.220 and responsibility, but when, when people overstep and try ruination, they go for ruination.

00:36:47.260 Um, we have to fight everybody.

00:36:49.080 It doesn't matter.

00:36:49.560 I don't care.

00:36:49.860 You're partisan strikes.

00:36:50.620 You have to fight back.

00:36:51.260 It's the only thing a bully understands, but to your credit, you say, you put yourself

00:36:55.240 in the public square and you can take it.

00:36:57.260 Your family, however, has also been targeted in a very disturbing way.

00:37:02.660 That's not okay.

00:37:04.100 That's a hard line.

00:37:05.840 And I feel like it's getting crossed more and more where we see protesters go to people's

00:37:10.460 houses, where their families are, where their kids are.

00:37:14.120 And in, in, in a way that is threatening and I'm sure really disconcerting.

00:37:19.320 And it was right before the Capitol riot, they did this to your wife.

00:37:22.360 It was two days before January 4th, as I see it, as I recall.

00:37:26.540 Um, can you tell us what happened?

00:37:27.600 Yeah, absolutely.

00:37:29.440 I was, I was at home in Missouri.

00:37:31.560 So we've got three kids.

00:37:32.880 Megan, my wife and I, um, have three kids, two little boys and then, uh, a newborn baby.

00:37:37.700 Um, she was four months at the time.

00:37:39.520 Well, now let me do my math here.

00:37:40.500 Two months at the time.

00:37:41.480 She's, she's at six months now.

00:37:42.980 Abigail is her name.

00:37:43.880 And, uh, she was not, I couldn't fly yet.

00:37:46.520 Not old enough to travel, just two months old.

00:37:48.160 So I was at home in Missouri with the two boys.

00:37:50.620 My wife, Erin, uh, was in the DC area with the baby precisely because the baby couldn't

00:37:55.600 travel.

00:37:56.180 And so these protesters come to, um, our house, uh, out in Virginia, they come to our house

00:38:01.960 at night.

00:38:02.960 I'm not there.

00:38:04.160 And they come with bullhorns.

00:38:06.280 Uh, they come with all of this, the, uh, uh, signs and posters and all this stuff that

00:38:11.560 they, they trashed our yard with, uh, they came and chalked up the sidewalk and all that

00:38:16.120 kind of nonsense.

00:38:16.840 But the biggest thing was that they, they go out there in the street and on the sidewalk

00:38:20.440 in front of our house and then up into our yard.

00:38:21.900 And they're screaming, they've got multiple bullhorns.

00:38:24.460 They're screaming.

00:38:25.040 My wife hears them, comes out with the baby and says, I'm, I'm, I'm here by myself.

00:38:32.620 Josh isn't here.

00:38:33.700 She's like, you know, Josh isn't here.

00:38:34.940 I'm here by myself.

00:38:36.160 Please leave.

00:38:37.080 You know, it's, it's nighttime.

00:38:38.460 You're scaring my neighbors.

00:38:40.140 Uh, you're scaring me.

00:38:41.860 Please leave.

00:38:42.880 After that, not only did they not leave Megan, they began to shout at her.

00:38:46.780 They started shouting at my newborn daughter, asking my wife, you know, like, is her life

00:38:50.960 important?

00:38:51.900 Do you want her to have a future?

00:38:53.220 I mean, stuff that my wife was like, Whoa, I mean, this is, this is crazy.

00:38:56.920 So my wife went back in the house, locked the door.

00:38:59.180 Then they came up to the house onto, onto our front porch and began banging on the door.

00:39:04.320 They brought their bullhorns up to the door and started screaming, come out, come out,

00:39:07.620 come out to my wife, banging on our windows.

00:39:09.920 This is after they know she's home alone.

00:39:11.640 I mean, this is really crazy behavior.

00:39:13.220 It's disgusting.

00:39:14.200 It's disgusting.

00:39:15.300 It's disgusting.

00:39:15.920 By the way, the guy who was this Antifa, who was this?

00:39:18.740 Yeah, it was like, it was like a shut down DC or something's the name of the group.

00:39:21.960 And they are according to their, uh, to their own publicity and Antifa affiliated group.

00:39:26.580 Of course, when I called them out, as I did that night, cause you know, my wife calls

00:39:30.380 me, I hear about this.

00:39:32.240 And I said, you know, we've, we've got to stand up to them right now.

00:39:36.060 We can't let them think they can get by with this.

00:39:37.600 So I put out a statement on social media and was like, this just happened at my house

00:39:40.560 and I'm calling out these thugs right now.

00:39:43.340 And I'm telling you that we're not going to let you get by with it.

00:39:46.180 And, you know, Megan, the, the, the guy who helped organize it has now pleaded guilty,

00:39:50.240 uh, to, uh, illegal trespass.

00:39:52.780 So, you know, the press initially was like, oh, this is, this is all fake.

00:39:56.780 Uh, Josh's wife just made this up.

00:39:59.620 It didn't really happen.

00:40:01.080 They, they only, they never came up on his property.

00:40:03.440 It was, it was, it was a, in fact, the, the organizers lied to the press and said, oh,

00:40:07.520 it was just a candlelight vigil.

00:40:09.420 We never did anything.

00:40:10.980 Well, as it turns out, that's all, oh, it's all a lie.

00:40:14.040 And the guy who organized it's now pled guilty.

00:40:16.700 So, uh, you know, there you go.

00:40:18.360 I mean, truth actually can prevail if you're willing to take a stand.

00:40:21.280 And my wife got blessed her.

00:40:22.260 She was like, I just am not willing to live in fear.

00:40:24.520 The other thing they said, Megan, they said to my wife is we'll be back.

00:40:27.360 And they said, we won't, you won't know when we're coming back, but we will be back.

00:40:31.000 And my wife was like, I refuse to live in fear in my own house with small children.

00:40:36.060 This is outrageous.

00:40:36.960 And we're not going to stand for it.

00:40:38.740 Can I just point out for the record that when that's done to a woman who had a baby two months

00:40:43.180 earlier, when you're still full of like hormones that you cannot control, it is a biological

00:40:48.480 fact.

00:40:49.260 And your partner's not at home.

00:40:50.780 Like, I can only imagine how hard it was for her to control her emotions and not let

00:40:56.580 loose on those guys and give them, of course, a video, which they would have loved.

00:41:00.720 Um, so kudos to her.

00:41:02.540 And she must have guts to walk out there and say like, get off my lawn.

00:41:06.940 Yeah, get off my lawn.

00:41:09.780 She does.

00:41:10.360 She's tough as nails.

00:41:12.340 The fun never stops.

00:41:13.460 The fun never stops.

00:41:14.440 That was January 4th.

00:41:15.580 And then we see just, I think it was April.

00:41:18.520 The New York Times decided to be fun to do a, they decided to do a profile on you, Senator.

00:41:23.700 Oh, it's so great.

00:41:24.640 The New York Times are doing a profile on me.

00:41:26.240 Terrific.

00:41:27.140 Um, what are they going to want to talk about my legislation to try to break up the, the

00:41:31.740 big tech antitrust situation?

00:41:34.100 What, what can we talk about?

00:41:35.400 No, they tracked down your high school prom date.

00:41:39.780 They tracked down your Stanford undergrad advisor, quote, the Josh I knew was not an

00:41:44.580 angry young person.

00:41:45.760 Thank you, David Kennedy.

00:41:46.820 Thank you for weighing in your prom date.

00:41:49.360 Kirsten is very disappointed in you.

00:41:52.280 I want you to know your middle school principal, Barbara.

00:41:55.620 She is too.

00:41:56.180 Very disappointed.

00:41:57.120 You would suck the country into Trump's lies.

00:41:59.160 And by the way, it's going on your permanent record.

00:42:00.900 Um, at 12, it turns out you wrote about the 1992 presidential election for your school

00:42:06.960 paper.

00:42:07.440 Oh, fascinating.

00:42:07.980 I pity the poor reporter who got put on this beat.

00:42:10.620 And in middle school, you had the nerve to drag children, children, I tell you, to the

00:42:14.320 movie Nixon.

00:42:17.900 What are they doing?

00:42:19.280 I mean, did you, you must have laughed when you saw this.

00:42:21.780 Oh, I did.

00:42:22.860 In fact, I didn't, to be a hundred percent honest with you, Megan, I actually didn't even

00:42:26.520 read it because I just, it was such, I knew it was going to be so absurd.

00:42:31.300 And the whole idea, I mean, you, you've captured it perfectly.

00:42:34.540 The absurdity of, of not talking about any substance, not trying to talk about any policy,

00:42:40.300 not trying to talk about anything of weight, but, but talking to my, my former prom dates

00:42:45.640 and middle school classmates.

00:42:47.500 I mean, it just is absurd on its face.

00:42:49.140 It shows you though, to get back to the sort of cancel culture and the idea of the left,

00:42:53.280 what the left wants to do is, is that if they disagree with you, then any efforts to silence

00:42:57.700 you, mock you, all of that's, all that's fair game.

00:43:00.780 And of course they may make themselves look like fools in the process as these people did

00:43:05.180 with this ridiculous story, but it just shows you that they recognize no, no bounds

00:43:09.980 of propriety or, or even reasonable.

00:43:12.160 I mean, who cares what, uh, my middle school classmates predicted might be my

00:43:17.440 political views in 30 years.

00:43:19.440 You know, I mean, it's, it's really up next.

00:43:22.300 We're going to get into Simon and Schuster canceling Senator Hawley's book, uh, which

00:43:26.360 it found a home ultimately, but you know, look, Simon and Schuster to its credit, it just pushed

00:43:31.060 back against a complaint by its internal mob to not publish Mike Pence, the, the now former

00:43:38.980 vice president of the United States.

00:43:42.320 But Josh Hawley was a bridge too far, apparently, cause they dumped him.

00:43:45.680 What does he think of it?

00:43:46.800 And, um, you know, about this push in general, right?

00:43:50.220 This, this cancellation of people when they do controversial things.

00:43:53.500 We'll talk about that.

00:43:54.240 We're going to get into the big tech discussion, which is fascinating.

00:43:57.540 In fact, um, Abby said it was her favorite part of the whole discussion.

00:44:00.600 So that's coming up next, how he's cracking down on big tech as they crack down on you.

00:44:05.440 Uh, but first, before we get to that, we're going to bring you a feature we have here called

00:44:09.000 you can't say that you can't say that or think that or do that.

00:44:14.080 Oh wait, this is America.

00:44:16.020 And we have to add a new term on the show because you also can't make that symbol with your hands.

00:44:21.560 Apparently that's, that's very wordy, but we'll work on it.

00:44:24.340 All right, let me explain.

00:44:25.240 Have you been following this controversy out of jeopardy?

00:44:28.100 The ever controversial jeopardy is back in the news.

00:44:31.460 You can't like, we talked to the guys from the fifth column about how knitting has gone

00:44:36.960 woke and controversial now.

00:44:38.720 Well, jeopardy too.

00:44:40.040 Uh, there's a contestant on jeopardy named Kelly Donahue.

00:44:43.220 Kelly's a guy won several games in a row.

00:44:45.680 And then in one episode, just last week, he gave an answer that bothered some people.

00:44:50.360 Doesn't every answer bother people?

00:44:52.000 I feel like everything I say bothers people.

00:44:53.460 Oh, well deal with it.

00:44:54.940 In an answer about the Romani people of Europe, Donahue asked, what are gypsies?

00:45:00.660 That was his, you know, answer, which as you know, is always has to be in the form of a

00:45:04.560 question.

00:45:05.320 Uh, well, that's apparently now considered a slur, which guest host Anderson Cooper was

00:45:09.740 quick to point out to him.

00:45:11.500 Can't say gypsies.

00:45:12.420 So, okay.

00:45:13.220 Now we know that.

00:45:14.260 Well, 450 former Jeopardy contestants signed an open letter to the Jeopardy producers about

00:45:25.560 this comment and another incident I'm about to get to, but they were offended by this.

00:45:30.660 And I quote, yes, it may be an innocent or ignorant reply.

00:45:34.740 And yes, it was technically correct, but on a television show for an international audience,

00:45:41.220 the impact on a larger stage needs to be taken into account.

00:45:45.380 They wrote, they wanted that whole thing edited out.

00:45:48.320 No one can hear any words that might be found offensive by some somewhere sometime because

00:45:53.860 you can't say that, but the story does not end there.

00:45:56.340 It would have been a candidate for this segment, even if it had, but oh no, it gets better

00:46:01.740 because the 450 Jeopardy contestants had a much bigger problem with what Kelly did the

00:46:08.160 next day.

00:46:09.540 In counting his victories, Kelly held up one finger against his chest after the first win,

00:46:16.840 right?

00:46:17.020 Like, Hey, one, I'm number one.

00:46:18.320 I got one, two fingers after his second win.

00:46:22.600 And you know what he did the third day.

00:46:23.980 You know it.

00:46:25.380 Three fingers were held up after his third victory.

00:46:28.480 You cannot hold up three fingers anymore.

00:46:31.540 You can't do that.

00:46:32.380 The way he held up those fingers, it looked like an okay hand gesture.

00:46:36.420 Do it right now.

00:46:36.980 Try to hold up your three fingers the way most Americans would hold up three fingers, right?

00:46:42.700 That's like pinky ring and middle.

00:46:45.400 I don't know.

00:46:46.320 To tell you the truth, I usually do it the European way, which is thumb first and third

00:46:50.120 that you still can do, but you cannot do pinky ring and middle because look at your hand.

00:46:55.500 What are you doing?

00:46:56.500 You think you're making an okay hand gesture?

00:46:58.420 No, you're a white supremacist.

00:47:00.000 That's what you are.

00:47:00.980 That's what you are saying.

00:47:02.300 If you denote three that way, like Steph Curry does and other NBA players, apparently when they

00:47:08.860 make three pointers, this is Steve Krakauer telling me this.

00:47:11.020 I don't know.

00:47:11.400 I've never seen Steph Curry do anything.

00:47:12.760 I know his wife, she cooks and she's awesome.

00:47:14.520 Um, but you see, this is actually very offensive.

00:47:17.480 Now this goes the letter.

00:47:19.880 Okay.

00:47:20.340 And I'm quoting whether intentional or not resembled very closely.

00:47:24.480 A gesture that has been co-opted by a white power group or all of them, alt-right groups

00:47:30.560 and an anti-government group that calls itself the three percenters and quote wrote the former

00:47:36.820 Jeopardy winners, 450 of them who clearly have way too much time on their hands.

00:47:42.360 First of all, who studies enough trivia to wind up in Jeopardy in the first place and

00:47:46.280 do well?

00:47:47.400 And second of all, who's taking time out of their damn day to write letters and pair up

00:47:52.220 with another 449 contestants?

00:47:55.580 Can you imagine the organization on this?

00:47:57.600 These insane people demanded that Kelly Donahue apologize for his apparent white power symbol,

00:48:06.340 writing,

00:48:06.660 We cannot stand up for hate.

00:48:09.460 We cannot stand next to hate.

00:48:11.520 We cannot stand on stage with something that looks like hate.

00:48:15.640 We are ashamed to be associated with brands and identities that suffer the taint of hateful

00:48:22.360 statements and actions, particularly if they go unchallenged by those at the top.

00:48:27.140 They have lost their ever-loving minds.

00:48:29.600 I mean, there's something wrong with these people.

00:48:32.640 Did anybody stop to look back at whether he had done the one and the two?

00:48:36.120 Like, that was my very first question when I heard this story.

00:48:38.000 Like, did he do the one and the two?

00:48:39.700 I don't totally discount that maybe he was trying to send a signal.

00:48:42.200 Sometimes people are out there and they do weird things on television.

00:48:45.220 But it was right there.

00:48:46.900 It's like, do a simple search.

00:48:48.580 It's right there.

00:48:49.220 It's knowable.

00:48:50.400 It's so crazy, by the way.

00:48:51.660 Can I just say, I have seen, of course, in the news that this, that the OK symbol,

00:48:55.540 like the normal OK symbol where you put your forefinger by your thumb and you hold up the

00:48:59.700 other three fingers has been co-opted by white supremacists.

00:49:02.480 Now, if you do that symbol, you might be a white supremacist.

00:49:04.660 You might be considered a white supremacist.

00:49:06.320 It's like it's in my head.

00:49:08.080 And we were pulling into our building, I don't know, like six months ago.

00:49:12.140 And our doorman opens up the garage door and then he like waves you in.

00:49:18.400 Right.

00:49:18.660 He looks to make sure nobody's coming across the sidewalk.

00:49:20.780 He waves you in.

00:49:21.460 But so he waved me in and like it was taking me a second because I was whatever, get my

00:49:26.600 kids settled.

00:49:27.460 And I was just I wasn't paying attention right away.

00:49:29.680 And he waves me in.

00:49:30.900 And I was trying to tell him, like, I'm coming in one second.

00:49:32.860 And I gave him the OK sign.

00:49:34.580 I was like, oh, my God, they're in my head.

00:49:40.620 These lunatics have got in my head that somehow this is communicating not I'll be there in a

00:49:45.120 second.

00:49:45.540 I'm good.

00:49:46.320 But I am a white supremacist.

00:49:48.580 Like, I just chose that random moment to be like, yo, go white supremacy.

00:49:57.760 It's insane.

00:49:59.160 As Kelly Donahue could tell you.

00:50:01.280 So what did Kelly do?

00:50:03.060 Well, you know damn well what he did.

00:50:04.640 He hasn't been listening to our show or Douglas Murray or any of the people like the fifth column

00:50:08.640 guys who said, be brave, call bullshit.

00:50:11.520 He issued the sad, sad statement that was like, he should have gone on offense like you

00:50:17.420 people have lost your minds.

00:50:19.740 OK, sorry.

00:50:20.240 It doesn't sound like a Jeopardy contest.

00:50:22.200 But this is what he said, quote, people who know me personally know that I am not racist.

00:50:26.600 But for the public at large, it bears repeating.

00:50:29.420 I am not a racist and I reject and condemn white supremacy and all forms of bigotry for the

00:50:36.560 evil they are.

00:50:37.860 Quote, it is shameful to me to think that anyone would try to use the stage of Jeopardy to advance

00:50:45.380 or promote such a disgusting agenda.

00:50:48.500 Oh, Kelly, it was a nice try, but it wasn't quite what you should have said.

00:50:53.660 You should have used those same fingers and put down all but the middle one.

00:50:57.840 That was the way out of this jam and put everybody attacking you baselessly into their

00:51:05.840 place, which is as dishonest brokers who are taking an unfair shot at you.

00:51:10.200 But I understand, brother.

00:51:11.980 I get it.

00:51:12.840 It's tough when the mob comes for you.

00:51:14.980 This is America 2021, sadly.

00:51:17.460 And now the truth is, if you hold up your hand in a certain way that looks like three

00:51:20.500 fingers, but also is somehow a secret racist message, according to some somewhere who might

00:51:26.760 secretly be watching you.

00:51:28.360 Well, you can't say that.

00:51:30.820 Back to Senator Hawley in one second.

00:51:35.840 Speaking of cancel culture, one of the things, one of the fallouts from your Capitol Hill

00:51:44.160 objections, not Capitol Hill, but, you know, the election certifications objections was

00:51:48.100 Simon and Schuster dumped you and your book that's just come out, The Tyranny of Big Tech.

00:51:54.200 It was it got picked up again by Regnery and God bless Regnery, who they will stand by conservatives

00:51:59.400 who get in trouble because they're always in trouble.

00:52:02.060 Just being a conservative means being in trouble with the press.

00:52:06.180 So that's how you got published, ultimately, notwithstanding what what Simon and Schuster

00:52:09.780 did to you.

00:52:10.500 But what did you make of Simon and Schuster telling you, you know, in their defense,

00:52:16.660 it was like the day after the Capitol Hill riot.

00:52:18.880 So everything was very charged.

00:52:20.960 But what did you make of them canceling you?

00:52:23.900 Oh, it was outrageous, particularly because it was done on the basis of total lies.

00:52:27.000 And I mean, this was a petition started up by the left on Twitter, I think, certainly

00:52:33.080 amplified by Twitter.

00:52:34.540 And so the irony here, Megan, is rich.

00:52:36.600 You know, the book is The Tyranny of Big Tech.

00:52:39.240 And it's been big tech that leverages their power to cancel the book.

00:52:43.180 I mean, it's really to try to cancel it.

00:52:44.700 So it's just, you know, it's hilarious.

00:52:46.200 But it also just shows you, I think, the groupthink that pervades the left and their

00:52:52.620 willingness to use their power to try and silence people that they disagree with.

00:52:57.220 You know, Simon and Schuster is a major, major publisher.

00:52:59.460 They've just been bought, interestingly, by Random House, I believe.

00:53:04.160 So, you know, they're a huge, huge corporate publisher that control many, many different

00:53:08.320 imprints, many, many different outlets.

00:53:10.700 And you see them, you know, trying to leverage that power to basically say, well, we're going

00:53:14.100 to try to shut you down.

00:53:15.180 You know, I mean, here they're the ones who went out and commissioned the book and then

00:53:19.140 to try and cancel it and shut it down.

00:53:21.360 So I just thought that, you know, it was based on lies because the whole premise was is that

00:53:25.300 Hawley incited this riot.

00:53:26.700 That's a total and complete lie.

00:53:29.460 But it also, I think, even more fundamentally than that, it shows you the attempt on the

00:53:34.900 left to use the power of private corporations to try and carry out the sort of censorship

00:53:41.520 that government could never do under our Constitution.

00:53:43.940 And you see the tech companies doing the same thing.

00:53:45.840 The liberals secretly or not so secretly love these big companies and these monopolies because

00:53:51.140 they have the kind of power to censor conservative voices that the government couldn't do.

00:53:56.040 They also canceled just just recently the cop from the Breonna Taylor case who was shot

00:54:01.740 in the leg, in the femoral artery, executing that no knock warrant.

00:54:06.040 It was not his decision to get the warrant.

00:54:08.240 He had been called in at the last minute.

00:54:09.540 He'd been told to do it.

00:54:10.420 He was following orders.

00:54:11.200 He went in there and Breonna Taylor's boyfriend shot him and he fired back.

00:54:17.060 That guy wanted to publish a book.

00:54:18.620 No charges were brought.

00:54:20.180 He wanted to publish a book.

00:54:21.180 Simon & Schuster initially said yes.

00:54:22.640 And then all the internal Simon & Schuster people said, ah, how could you?

00:54:25.720 They canceled him, too.

00:54:27.920 And I just, you know, like the double standard on all of this is so frustrating because nobody

00:54:33.120 here, I think not neither you nor me, certainly in my people go back and listen to my broadcast,

00:54:38.060 but would defend the Capitol Hill riot in any way.

00:54:40.380 Five people died.

00:54:41.720 138 officers injured.

00:54:43.240 444 people have been arrested.

00:54:45.060 It's not good in any way.

00:54:46.320 It's disgusting.

00:54:46.880 But the truth is that the BLM protests have led to, and I'm going to cite my sources here,

00:54:52.700 at least 25 people being killed, at least 25 killed, more than 2,000 cops injured.

00:54:59.060 In just the first few weeks, I stopped counting after the end of July, 72% of law enforcement

00:55:04.000 agencies reported that the police had been harmed by Molotov cocktails, bricks being thrown

00:55:08.400 at them, frozen water bottles, and so on.

00:55:10.460 8,700 protests, 574 riots.

00:55:13.460 The majority did not turn violent of those protests, but 574 were riots.

00:55:18.900 Hundreds of them had murders, violence, arsons, other criminal acts, over 230, 2,300 looting

00:55:24.960 incidents, 624 arsons.

00:55:28.220 It's 6,000, 16,000 people arrested, 16,000 city halls were burned and so on.

00:55:35.760 And by the way, my numbers on this, the numbers of people killed, it was 11 dead in the protests,

00:55:40.800 14, and David Dorn-like related incidents around the riots.

00:55:46.280 And those come from a left-leaning group, a nonpartisan, I should say, group that did

00:55:50.580 the counting.

00:55:51.060 So that's benefit of the doubt.

00:55:52.400 And the cop numbers come from a cop group that oversees, it's called the Major Cities

00:55:56.760 Chiefs Association, 69 largest police agencies in the U.S.

00:55:59.480 So anyway, my point is, not a peep, right?

00:56:03.200 Not a peep out of the left who are ripping on the Capitol Hill riot, and you want, you

00:56:08.380 canceled, you can't publish a book, you can't do anything.

00:56:11.660 You know, you think it'd be tough for the leaders of BLM to get a book published right

00:56:16.600 now?

00:56:17.260 Yeah, it's the double standard.

00:56:18.560 Yeah, the double standard is glaring.

00:56:21.320 It is absolutely glaring.

00:56:23.160 And this, by the way, is why the media figures have less and less influence, traditional media

00:56:29.160 figures have less and less influence, I think, with the American public and the voting public.

00:56:32.780 People don't trust them.

00:56:33.820 And this is why, Megan, people aren't stupid.

00:56:36.580 They know that there were riots across this country.

00:56:38.740 Many, many Americans, including those in my home state, lived through those riots.

00:56:42.380 You mentioned David Dorn.

00:56:43.360 He's from St. Louis.

00:56:44.480 He was a constituent of mine, shot at point-blank range by rioters in the midst of a riot.

00:56:50.820 He went the retired cop, right?

00:56:52.400 He goes to try and help a buddy who has a store, has a small business.

00:56:56.880 David gets up in the middle of the night voluntarily to try to go help this guy, gets shot at point-blank

00:57:02.080 range, and the whole thing is captured on social media, and he's left there to die.

00:57:05.500 I mean, it's unbelievable.

00:57:06.940 We've lived through that in Missouri.

00:57:09.300 Millions of Americans across the country have lived through these riots, and they know the

00:57:12.400 difference.

00:57:12.680 They know that there's a difference between a protest and a riot, and they know that there

00:57:16.400 are rioters who claim all kinds of ideologies as their excuse, whether, again, it's BLM

00:57:21.480 or whether it's some right-wing garbage or whatever it may be.

00:57:25.780 And here's the deal.

00:57:27.200 If you assault cops, if you break the law, you should be prosecuted.

00:57:32.860 You should go to jail.

00:57:33.880 And I think the American people know the difference, but we're constantly told, constantly, that

00:57:38.860 if it happens on the left, then it's all fine, and that there has to be some violence in

00:57:43.000 order to achieve a greater social good, right?

00:57:45.660 I mean, there has to be the violence is either it's not real, and we're all exaggerating it,

00:57:50.160 or it's necessary.

00:57:52.200 Whereas, of course, if it's violence motivated by the right, then it's like, oh, well, I mean,

00:57:57.000 that's fundamentally different.

00:57:58.880 It's not fundamentally different.

00:58:00.120 Violence is violence.

00:58:01.440 Violence is wrong.

00:58:02.600 Political violence is wrong, no matter who does it, and we've just got to stand firm in that.

00:58:08.360 Yeah.

00:58:08.700 Meanwhile, the violence in Portland, which is Antifa, there was violence in more than 62%

00:58:16.060 of those, quote, protests, right?

00:58:17.860 So it's like, but still, they don't condemn that until right now.

00:58:21.200 The mayor's finally like, hey, maybe this is a bad idea.

00:58:23.200 Maybe we should be going after these people.

00:58:25.400 You think?

00:58:26.760 All right, let's finish out by talking about big tech, because I thought your book was

00:58:31.140 fascinating and really alarming, and I will make a confession to you.

00:58:34.540 I had not yet actually sat down and watched The Social Dilemma.

00:58:38.340 I think I was just sort of tuned out and confused it for The Social Network, which I had seen

00:58:41.740 10 years earlier, so I'm like, I've already seen this.

00:58:43.900 Totally different story.

00:58:44.940 The Social Dilemma, which everybody should watch.

00:58:46.580 It's a documentary on Netflix, and I told my team I want to do a show on this.

00:58:51.300 But the problems being raised in that documentary about, it features insiders from inside big

00:58:58.020 tech, all of the major ones, talking about how they manipulate us, where they're little

00:59:02.000 guinea pigs, where they're lab rats.

00:59:04.840 People are so worried that the vaccine is injecting a Bill Gates chip inside of us.

00:59:08.860 No, that's called your phone.

00:59:10.460 He's already got you.

00:59:11.740 He's got a chip walking around with you in your droid.

00:59:15.400 And Tim Cook's got one in your iPhone.

00:59:18.220 They can see everything you do, everything.

00:59:19.900 And you're raising a couple of points here, just as I understand the summation, it's you

00:59:26.360 are being monitored.

00:59:28.340 You're being manipulated into addiction and buying behaviors that you wouldn't otherwise

00:59:35.320 do and into endless time online.

00:59:38.420 It's dangerous for you and especially for your children.

00:59:41.580 And all the while, power's being transferred from us to them, from the individual to them.

00:59:47.720 We're no longer in control of our own time.

00:59:50.220 They're controlling.

00:59:51.360 And as they get bigger, they crack down on speech they don't like, which means conservative

00:59:55.820 speech for the most part.

00:59:56.940 There's been some liberal incidents, but the vast majority conservative.

01:00:00.540 And everyone sits back and just watches them grow because capitalism, because we like being

01:00:07.760 able to use Amazon to buy our stuff.

01:00:10.680 We like our iPhone.

01:00:11.940 That's generally how I see the problem.

01:00:13.600 Now you're introducing a couple pieces, but mainly one piece of legislation to fix it.

01:00:18.920 Is that a fair summary?

01:00:21.440 I think it is a fair summary.

01:00:22.540 It's a chilling summary, Megan.

01:00:23.840 And it's exactly right.

01:00:25.220 I mean, the power of these monopolies, I think is really unprecedented in American history.

01:00:30.040 The nearest analogs, and I talk about this in the book, the nearest analogs are probably

01:00:34.520 the railroad monopolies from a century ago because they exercised a pretty tremendous

01:00:38.220 amount of power over our economy.

01:00:40.260 But heck, that pales in comparison to big tech.

01:00:43.020 The railroad companies couldn't control what we read, couldn't control what we say, couldn't

01:00:47.940 control the way that news is written.

01:00:49.900 I mean, think about this.

01:00:51.820 Google and Facebook now have so much power over the distribution of information that

01:00:56.580 they can go to the major journalist outlets in America and say, we want you to change the

01:01:00.440 way you write your stories.

01:01:01.600 We want you to change what you put in your stories.

01:01:03.700 We want you to change how you distribute your stories.

01:01:06.060 And guess what?

01:01:06.580 But the journalists do it because they need these distribution channels because Facebook

01:01:11.180 controls what people read and what they don't read.

01:01:13.660 So it's an incredible amount of power.

01:01:16.160 It means that everyday, normal, working Americans are losing power.

01:01:20.820 These companies are gaining power.

01:01:22.840 And to your point, Megan, they do have a political point of view.

01:01:24.880 We know they have a political agenda.

01:01:26.520 At the end of the day, the agenda is really about themselves.

01:01:28.880 You know, they want control.

01:01:30.940 They are also, though, a woke leftist.

01:01:33.040 And so they are pushing a woke left political agenda.

01:01:35.160 And this is a bad recipe.

01:01:37.060 And this is why we need to break these companies up.

01:01:39.320 We need new competition in these markets.

01:01:41.720 And we need to protect liberty.

01:01:43.240 Monopoly and liberty don't go together.

01:01:45.980 Competition protects liberty.

01:01:47.400 And that's what the book is really about.

01:01:49.180 So what is the likelihood of that?

01:01:50.800 Because, as you know, I think it's 49, maybe up to 50.

01:01:54.980 Now, last I looked, it was 49 states are suing Facebook in an antitrust case.

01:01:59.440 And there is a bill introduced by Amy Klobuchar, too, on the other side of the aisle,

01:02:04.660 trying to attack this problem.

01:02:06.700 You and she are not that far apart on this issue.

01:02:08.340 There could be some bipartisanship if you weren't so toxic.

01:02:11.780 And what do you think is actually going to happen?

01:02:14.560 Because it seems like the mood might be shifting a little toward doing something about how big

01:02:20.260 they are and how powerful they are.

01:02:22.440 I sure hope that it is.

01:02:23.280 So I think that certainly among actual people, you know, not these sort of policy ties to

01:02:28.860 the chattering class of Washington, D.C., but everyday working people, I think they've

01:02:33.160 known for a long time.

01:02:34.300 And this is how I first got involved in this issue as Attorney General of Missouri, because

01:02:37.440 I heard from parent after parent about how worried they were about their kids getting

01:02:43.080 tracked all over the web by these companies, building profiles on children.

01:02:47.240 So I started looking into it and looking what they were doing in schools, what Google was

01:02:51.160 doing in schools, for example.

01:02:52.420 And it was horrifying.

01:02:53.680 I think all of that to say that, you know, this has been three, four years ago now.

01:02:56.800 I think that the American people have known for a long time, hold on, something's weird

01:03:00.580 here.

01:03:01.240 It's weird that I'm being tracked everywhere.

01:03:03.240 It's weird that they have more control over my own personal information than I do.

01:03:07.960 They want something done.

01:03:09.080 So I think that there is potential, absolutely, for some bipartisan work on Capitol Hill if the Democrats

01:03:14.580 are willing to get tough on tech.

01:03:16.500 And here's my concern, Megan.

01:03:18.240 These tech companies got a sweetheart deal under the Obama administration, the Obama-Biden

01:03:23.260 administration.

01:03:23.940 I mean a sweetheart deal in that, insofar as, for example, the Federal Trade Commission

01:03:28.260 actually dropped a potential antitrust suit against Google at the request of Google when

01:03:34.080 Google went and negotiated and intervened at the Obama White House, like physically at the

01:03:39.180 White House.

01:03:39.700 The Google chiefs went to the White House proper and said, we have a problem here.

01:03:43.640 And the FTC backed off.

01:03:46.020 They've given gobs of money now to the Biden-Harris campaign during this last election.

01:03:50.960 And I'm worried about how cozy the new president is and vice president are with these tech companies.

01:03:55.900 So I hope that the Democrats will get serious about this.

01:03:59.940 I hope Democrats in Congress will hold the new president's feet to the fire.

01:04:03.860 And then I hope those Republicans who kind of have had their hands over their eyes and said,

01:04:07.340 oh, this is the free market has produced these companies.

01:04:10.140 That's not right.

01:04:11.040 The free market hasn't produced these companies.

01:04:12.900 Big government giveaways have produced these monopolies.

01:04:16.840 Big government has kept these monopolies afloat.

01:04:19.340 And it's time we broke them up.

01:04:21.500 Well, and as you say in the book that, you know, we gave them this is this is long prior

01:04:25.020 to Obama, Biden, but section 230.

01:04:28.360 Right.

01:04:28.540 Which which basically is thanks to this position of this law, this portion of this law, big tech,

01:04:35.740 you say in the book, it's like giving tomorrow's drug lords a new drug formula and a promise

01:04:40.580 that they can't be sued for misusing it.

01:04:42.000 So it's it's it basically allows them to control, you say, produce nothing and control everything because they can't be sued now.

01:04:52.280 Like they can they are allowed if in good faith they take down content.

01:04:56.480 They're allowed to do that, but they don't have to.

01:04:58.820 You know, and 230 protects them from lawsuits based on not pulling stuff down or from pulling stuff down as long as it was in good faith.

01:05:06.940 And I know a lot of Republicans say, don't mess with 230.

01:05:09.980 We don't want more lawsuits.

01:05:10.980 It's going to lead to more censorship.

01:05:12.580 If you take away 230, they're going to censor everything because they don't they don't want to get sued.

01:05:16.400 Um, what's your response to that?

01:05:18.720 Because, you know, that I see the point.

01:05:21.480 Yeah, I would say this, that I think that giving people, giving giving normal folks some bargaining power here, I think, is important.

01:05:29.220 What happens now is, is that these companies, they issue these terms of service and terms of service say we don't discriminate on the basis of political viewpoint.

01:05:36.800 We don't censor on the basis of political viewpoint.

01:05:38.960 But as you've just pointed out, Megan, if, in fact, you do get censored on the basis of political viewpoint, and they violate their own terms of agreement, you cannot enforce it.

01:05:49.140 You cannot go to court and say, hold on, hold on.

01:05:51.520 Here's this term of agreement.

01:05:53.060 I agree to this.

01:05:53.960 You agree to this.

01:05:54.580 I want it enforced.

01:05:55.640 Can't do it under current law.

01:05:57.200 My view is, let's make those terms of agreement enforceable.

01:06:00.480 The tech companies' own terms, make them enforceable.

01:06:03.640 I think what you would see, actually, is they would try and hew very, very closely to what they've written in their terms of agreement.

01:06:11.300 I think that they would actually be, try to be more neutral, that they would do less political censorship.

01:06:16.920 My guess is that they would probably pull back from trying to control political speech.

01:06:21.180 But I think either way, the size of these companies, apart from just their control over speech, part of what makes them so dangerous is the sheer size and control they have.

01:06:31.340 And this is why we need to break them up.

01:06:33.120 It would be better if we had competition among multiple companies, some of whom would say, hey, conservatives, guess what?

01:06:39.280 You're welcome on our platform.

01:06:40.920 We won't censor you.

01:06:42.080 If you had real competition, then you could get that kind of sort of market forces.

01:06:47.520 You could recruit those market forces to your end.

01:06:49.400 But you're exposing them legally.

01:06:51.220 Like right now, the reason people can post nutty things on YouTube, I agree, less than they used to be able to.

01:06:57.380 But the reason they can get on there and talk about all sorts of nutty things, which I, as a free speech advocate, don't mind for the most part, is YouTube can't be sued for that stuff.

01:07:08.140 YouTube is not considered the content creator.

01:07:11.780 They're just sort of a platform.

01:07:13.240 That's why they got protection under 230.

01:07:15.000 And if we change the law to say, oh, no, now you're going to be treated like you're the Washington Post and that's your reporter who printed libelous stuff about person X, then YouTube's going to start censoring videos left and right.

01:07:28.480 And same with Facebook and same with Twitter.

01:07:31.020 They're not going to have the manpower to do it.

01:07:32.500 But, like, it's going to shrink every platform for average Joes to get their voices and their opinions out there.

01:07:40.380 Yeah, I wouldn't change that part of it, Megan.

01:07:41.820 I think that the basic premise, what 230 was written to do, at least in part, was to say that if there's truly third-party content, like you've just hypothesized, you've got third-party content on the platform, and the platform doesn't post it, or the platform rather doesn't change it.

01:07:55.720 It's just acting as a kind of a bulletin board.

01:07:57.680 Then you can't sue the platform for it, unless it's illegal, right, and they should know it's illegal.

01:08:02.720 I think that's fine.

01:08:03.580 I think that's fine.

01:08:04.700 But that's not what these platforms do, because what they do now is they fool around with the content.

01:08:09.360 They amplify the content using their algorithms.

01:08:11.740 They can even edit the content currently, and they still cannot be held liable in any way.

01:08:18.480 So they've got all kinds of powers, editorial powers, and most of this stuff, Megan, courts have made up over time.

01:08:24.380 I mean, the Section 230 law that Congress passed in the 90s, it bears very little resemblance to what is in effect today, because courts, at the behest of big tech, have systematically rewritten it.

01:08:35.900 And my view is, for instance, you mentioned good faith a couple of times just a minute or two ago.

01:08:40.240 The good faith requirement is now gone.

01:08:42.460 I mean, it's a dead letter.

01:08:43.420 Courts have read it out.

01:08:44.840 So I think what we need to do is—

01:08:46.680 That's not true.

01:08:47.880 I remember seeing a couple of decisions where they did uphold it.

01:08:52.460 Maybe they've weakened it, but it's still there.

01:08:54.480 Well, it's there, Megan, but it's in a different section.

01:08:56.840 And so now what the courts have said is that actually all of the authority that the platforms need in order to curate, in order to take down, all of that can be found in the section that does not include the words good faith.

01:09:09.680 So they don't need to rely on it.

01:09:11.420 So, yeah, it's still on the statute.

01:09:13.100 Sure, it's still there in the law.

01:09:14.360 But they don't need to rely on it and invoke it.

01:09:16.860 And that's why you see a lot of these reform proposals include putting back a good faith proposal into every part and saying, no, you've got to justify every takedown decision with good faith.

01:09:26.360 So here's what I would do.

01:09:27.540 I would make it simple.

01:09:28.520 I would say that the platforms need to follow their own terms of agreement that they have written.

01:09:33.000 And if they don't, then they should be held liable.

01:09:36.620 But I would also break them up, quite apart from whatever their terms of service are, however they write them.

01:09:42.880 I think that, for instance, Amazon should not be able to own both the dominant e-commerce platform in the world and the cloud, rather, as they do with AWS, Amazon Web Services, and have their own retail line of products that they build using their competitor's info.

01:10:00.520 But this shouldn't be able to have all of those industries at one point.

01:10:02.560 We need to force them to spin those off.

01:10:04.740 We should do the same thing with Google and YouTube, Instagram and Facebook, and go right down the line and open up some space for competition.

01:10:11.620 Well, I like how in the book you talk about how historically, as a country, we weren't in love with big, big, bigger.

01:10:19.320 We weren't looking to have these companies get so huge and sort of take over large factions of American society.

01:10:27.000 And that's why people like Teddy Roosevelt and, frankly, FDR and others started cracking down on these monopolies because they're not healthy for a democracy.

01:10:37.020 Now, people like Stossel, my friend and libertarian John Stossel, might say, so what?

01:10:42.220 They provide a lot of good services.

01:10:43.480 They got so big because people love them.

01:10:45.060 And that's the United States.

01:10:46.720 That's capitalism.

01:10:47.740 What would you say to that?

01:10:48.480 Well, I would say that capitalism really is about the operation of the free market, the free entry and exit from the market of individuals.

01:10:56.840 And the problem with monopoly, why monopoly is historically seen as an enemy of capitalism and as an enemy to the free market, is monopoly squelches competition.

01:11:05.800 And you see these companies doing it all the time.

01:11:07.500 I mean, heck, we have the emails from Mark Zuckerberg when Facebook bought Instagram, where Zuckerberg muses openly about the need to buy up a competitor.

01:11:15.960 And he even says, he says, you know, this Instagram, this could be a competitor to us.

01:11:19.720 Why don't we acquire them?

01:11:21.580 Which is exactly what Facebook ended up doing.

01:11:24.000 And one of the reasons that we have fewer and fewer startups in this space that make it for any length of time, we also have fewer and fewer new business starts in general, small businesses in this country, is we're seeing more and more consolidation across industry.

01:11:36.440 But especially in the tech space, we've got three or four or five major monopolies that prevent new market entrance, that squelch competition, and that extract monopoly rents, Megan.

01:11:48.100 So think about our data for a second.

01:11:50.160 You know, you mentioned the fact that these companies track us all around the web, that they take our personal information from us.

01:11:55.540 They can do that because they're monopolies, because you and I can't effectively opt out.

01:11:59.200 Where would we go?

01:12:00.080 I mean, where would we go if we wanted somebody else who didn't track us and didn't gather our data?

01:12:05.960 We don't have anywhere to go.

01:12:07.520 I like this.

01:12:07.980 I remember reading about this.

01:12:08.980 You were saying we should have an opt out button that says, no, you may not track me.

01:12:12.140 No, you may not monitor every site I go to and how many seconds I spend looking at X picture or X ad.

01:12:19.000 I mean, who would oppose that?

01:12:21.060 Why?

01:12:21.760 I mean, I understand it undermines their entire business model.

01:12:23.980 But what lawmaker is going to say?

01:12:25.660 Because all constituents would be in favor of that.

01:12:28.620 Exactly.

01:12:29.260 No, it should be a no-brainer.

01:12:30.340 And you know what would be even better, Megan, is if we had enough competition in the market that you would get new companies who would come along and say, new social media companies, for instance, a competitor of Facebook, who would come along and say, hey, come to my site and I won't track you.

01:12:44.480 And I won't take your data.

01:12:45.540 And I'll be a legit competitor with Facebook.

01:12:48.500 But we don't see those companies developing and reaching any kind of scale before they get bought up or go out of business because Facebook and Google are monopolies.

01:12:57.560 And by the way, Facebook itself, back in the early 2000s when it was competing against MySpace, you know, I mean, now none of us hardly remember MySpace.

01:13:06.160 But Facebook at one time had competition and Facebook marketed itself to consumers as a pro-privacy platform.

01:13:14.480 It said, we will protect you.

01:13:16.580 And guess what?

01:13:17.180 After they triumphed over MySpace and basically drove MySpace effectively out of business, what did Facebook do?

01:13:24.400 It went right back to collecting your data, to spying on you.

01:13:28.240 Why could they get by with it?

01:13:29.520 Because now they're a monopoly.

01:13:30.920 And this is why we need competition.

01:13:32.780 Is there any chance your bill or a bill like it is going to pass?

01:13:36.580 Well, I sure hope so.

01:13:37.500 You mentioned Senator Klobuchar a second ago.

01:13:40.160 Senator Klobuchar now chairs the antitrust subcommittee in the Senate that I sit on.

01:13:44.460 And, you know, there is, I think, a lot of room here to find common ground.

01:13:48.560 And I would say to my conservative Republican colleagues, you know, what we need to be in favor of in promoting is robust competition.

01:13:55.520 And we've just got to recognize that when these companies are able to censor speech, when they are able to collect our data without consent,

01:14:02.780 the only reason they can really get by with that is because they're monopolies, because consumers don't have a real choice.

01:14:09.920 And so I think we've, the Republicans, have got to get back to being the party of trustbusters, the party of robust competition.

01:14:15.920 I think there's a lot of room to work with our Democrat colleagues to do that.

01:14:20.160 But it's going to require the Democrats to actually be serious, Megan, about cracking down on these, on the tech power, tech companies' power.

01:14:26.600 And I don't, I'm not 100% sure they really want to do that, because I think the Democrats like the fact that they can use these companies to censor conservatives and libertarians in a way that government couldn't.

01:14:39.600 Well, they want more power over big tech because they want more censorship.

01:14:44.020 They think it's become a place for disinformation.

01:14:46.460 And yes, it is a place for disinformation.

01:14:47.820 That is true.

01:14:48.740 But that's why there might be bipartisan cooperation on this.

01:14:53.060 And that does raise some, you know, all of this is a little fraught because it's a little bit, you know, cracking down on free speech potentially.

01:15:00.400 But I, like, it's, this is something we've never really dealt with before.

01:15:04.300 We've dealt with behemoths, but we haven't dealt with groups this big that control basically all of the public square.

01:15:11.820 I mean, this is how people communicate now.

01:15:13.760 And it's so creepy.

01:15:15.520 You think J. Edgar Hoover was creepy in the way he'd watch you or the NSA, you know, wait until you read this book.

01:15:22.260 Wait until you go watch that movie and figure out they're watching everything you do, everything.

01:15:27.220 They're controlling you.

01:15:28.840 So I got to ask you this.

01:15:29.540 I know you're short on time, but you're, you're not letting your kids have iPads then.

01:15:34.740 And, and when it comes time, are you not going to let them do social media?

01:15:40.300 We don't currently, I write about this in the book.

01:15:42.380 My kids are eight and six, my boys.

01:15:44.980 And then we talked about our new baby, Abigail, who's now six months old, about six months old.

01:15:49.380 And we decided that we wouldn't allow our kids to have really any screens, mobile screens.

01:15:54.480 We allow them to watch a little bit of TV, but we don't allow them to have mobile screens.

01:15:59.240 And Megan, we're going to try to hold onto that as long as we can.

01:16:01.600 And I talk about why we do that in the book.

01:16:03.220 And every family has to make their own decisions.

01:16:04.880 For us, what we found with our kids was the interactive nature of these mobile platforms,

01:16:09.720 and especially social media-based apps on those platforms, that really draws the kids in.

01:16:15.000 And it's just, it makes them voracious for more and more of it.

01:16:18.220 And of course, it gives the companies opportunity to track our kids.

01:16:20.920 So we currently don't do that as a family.

01:16:23.460 And I, as to social media, I'm going to try and encourage my kids to stay off of social media,

01:16:30.800 hopefully forever, but certainly as long as possible.

01:16:33.360 I just think that, you know-

01:16:34.820 What if they have no friends?

01:16:36.040 I'm in the same boat, but I'm farther down the line because I have an 11-year-old and a 10-year-old now.

01:16:41.480 But I, but like, this is what everybody says.

01:16:43.080 Like, your kid will have no friends.

01:16:44.580 They will get invited to no parties.

01:16:45.760 They will have no idea what's going on.

01:16:47.200 And I'm like, oh, well, I don't, I don't want that.

01:16:49.200 But, you know, that's true.

01:16:51.120 Well, I actually think that encouraging our kids to live as much of their lives as possible

01:16:55.860 off social media helps them to build real friendships.

01:16:58.880 And of course, it really helps to do it in partnership with other parents and families.

01:17:02.600 And this is something that my wife and I have the blessing of being able to do.

01:17:05.700 You know, we found groups of like-minded families and, you know, say, look, we want our kids to

01:17:10.060 build face-to-face relationships.

01:17:11.340 We want them to actually talk to one another, to play with one another in person.

01:17:15.280 We want them to have a real relationship that isn't mediated by these devices.

01:17:21.340 And, you know, that's, that is a hard lift in this, in this day and age, Megan, as you

01:17:24.800 point out.

01:17:25.440 But I think that encouraging kids to, to build those real friendships, to have those real

01:17:32.140 interpersonal relationships is so key.

01:17:34.240 And I think part of that is living as much of your life as possible off of social media.

01:17:38.260 So it's not acting as the gatekeeper between you and reality.

01:17:42.560 Mm-hmm.

01:17:43.360 Um, we just set a rule, just set a rule with our kids saying no, no iPads at all during

01:17:48.780 the week.

01:17:49.840 And right now the rule is going to be, you can do two hours on a Saturday and a Sunday,

01:17:54.940 two hours each day.

01:17:55.880 Yep.

01:17:56.200 I feel like that's a reasonable place to start, you know, at this age, because they do use

01:18:00.180 those iPads to do a lot, like to talk to their friends.

01:18:03.020 They don't use phones anymore, you know?

01:18:05.000 So we'll see how that works out.

01:18:06.640 Maybe start with like, it's like, you know, if you don't want to go cold turkey and go to

01:18:09.840 AAA, you could start by limiting yourself to two drinks a week.

01:18:12.120 This is, this is our version of that.

01:18:15.240 Um, and I appreciate you shining a light on it because, you know, certainly as a parent,

01:18:18.920 it's, and, and I, and I know you're honest about your own addiction when it comes to,

01:18:22.420 um, technology and I feel it too.

01:18:24.360 A hundred percent.

01:18:25.220 Listen, I am grateful for your time and you talking about all the hot button issues and

01:18:29.960 all the sensitive stuff.

01:18:30.820 So honestly, I appreciate it.

01:18:32.360 Oh, thanks so much.

01:18:33.700 Thank you for having me.

01:18:34.660 Don't miss Friday's show.

01:18:41.020 You know, Paul Rossi, the teacher who spoke out about critical race theory and how it was

01:18:46.760 taking over every aspect of his school, Grace Church School, this private school in New York.

01:18:51.760 Well, on the heels of that, a very brave parent named Andrew Gutman wrote a scathing letter

01:18:58.200 of his own at the very tone, even tonier than Grace Church, Brearley School, which is, I mean,

01:19:06.660 it's consistently on the top 10 of all schools in the, in the country.

01:19:09.860 And it's definitely in the top 10, probably top three of all girls schools in the country.

01:19:14.580 Very, very smart girls in Brearley and they work really hard and they earn their great reputation.

01:19:19.760 And if your child gets in there, I'm sure it's a point of pride for somebody like Andrew Gutman.

01:19:26.200 And he'd had quite enough and went out of there in a blaze of glory, pulling his children, saying,

01:19:33.680 no more.

01:19:35.940 And the school's reaction was outrageous.

01:19:39.260 He has not yet done an interview, but you will hear him first on Friday, right here.

01:19:45.220 Don't miss it.

01:19:46.500 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:19:48.620 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:19:53.620 The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 05, 2021

Sen. Josh Hawley on Big Tech Tyranny, Media Absurdity, and the State of the GOP ｜ Ep. 98

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