The Megyn Kelly Show - Sen. Ted Cruz on the Supreme Court, the Debates and the Media ｜ Ep. 4

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00:00:31.140 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest and provocative conversations.

00:00:44.640 Hey everybody, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:48.020 We have got Senator Ted Cruz with us today

00:00:50.580 and he has got some strong thoughts on the debate this week

00:00:54.400 and is actually calling now for new rules to be implemented

00:00:58.580 on who can moderate these debates

00:01:01.640 suggesting there is too much anti-Trump or anti-Republican bias

00:01:07.020 in the moderators, in the selections

00:01:09.420 that the Commission on Presidential Debates are making.

00:01:12.940 And it's interesting to me because I will tell you

00:01:15.160 I had my own experience this week where I live tweeted the debate

00:01:17.960 and my random thoughts as I watched it

00:01:19.840 and was promptly met by an article from some website

00:01:23.180 that normally traffics in the Kardashians and the Bachelorette

00:01:25.860 saying one thing is clear from her Twitter feed

00:01:29.640 Megyn Kelly is for Trump.

00:01:32.480 So this is what happens when you just cover him and Joe Biden fairly, right?

00:01:37.720 When you just say, okay, point Biden, point Trump, point Biden, point Trump.

00:01:42.700 This is a weakness for Trump.

00:01:43.960 This is a weakness for Biden.

00:01:45.020 And I encourage anybody to go back and look at my Twitter at Megyn Kelly

00:01:47.660 to make up their own minds.

00:01:49.600 But it's stunning to me.

00:01:51.520 Unless you are talking about Trump as though he is frothing at the mouth

00:01:56.040 and only a little bit close to human,

00:01:59.960 you're biased.

00:02:01.580 You're in the tank for him and you're clearly voting for him.

00:02:04.700 I think this is crazy.

00:02:06.120 And I will tell you, even when Trump and I are good now,

00:02:08.440 but when he was coming after me for all that time after our debate last time around,

00:02:13.460 you go back and look at my coverage.

00:02:15.740 I hit him when he deserved to be hit.

00:02:17.340 He did a couple of really crazy things like going after the Gold Star family.

00:02:21.500 But I covered him very fairly and defended him on a lot of stuff,

00:02:25.980 even though personally I wasn't that happy with the guy.

00:02:28.680 And that is the challenge that these journalists face today.

00:02:31.440 I know they hate him.

00:02:32.760 They make no pretense of even trying to hide it.

00:02:35.980 But you owe it to your audience to try, you know, just to be fair.

00:02:41.100 And honestly, if you don't, you're going to lose him.

00:02:43.260 You're going to lose at least half of them.

00:02:44.880 They don't they don't trust you.

00:02:46.480 There's not a single Trump fan in the country that trusts CNN or MSNBC.

00:02:51.680 Whereas I do think some center lefties watch Fox News.

00:02:54.640 They certainly did watch the Kelly file when I was on.

00:02:57.800 So I think this sort of attitude is at their own peril.

00:03:01.160 And I think people really need to consider,

00:03:04.400 is it that hard?

00:03:05.860 Is it that hard to try to be fair to both sides?

00:03:09.920 Hope springs eternal that they will learn.

00:03:12.600 As Scarlett O'Hara said, tomorrow is another day.

00:03:16.260 Evan Hafer is a guy who started a coffee company after about 20 years in the U.S.

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00:03:33.500 He's now the CEO and he's the founder.

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00:03:41.320 And that was caffeine and not just the troops.

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00:03:45.480 He started roasting his own coffee in 2006 to bring with him while overseas.

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00:03:57.280 I mean, that is that is impressive.

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00:05:34.640 Senator Ted Cruz, great to have you here.

00:05:36.920 It's great to be with you, Megan, and congrats on the new podcast.

00:05:40.560 Thank you so much.

00:05:41.580 You know, you were the very first guest on The Kelly File, which turned out to be a very

00:05:46.140 good omen for me.

00:05:47.160 And so here you are, my very first week on The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:05:49.920 So I'm feeling good.

00:05:51.160 It's an honor.

00:05:52.040 Well, I remember well, and you took off like a phenom on Fox, and I'm sure you will in the

00:05:58.620 podcast world, too.

00:06:00.140 Now, the question for you is whether Donald Trump or Joe Biden took off like a phenom at

00:06:05.700 the debate this week.

00:06:06.780 What would you grade each one of those guys?

00:06:09.480 Oh, look, I think that the whole thing was a mess.

00:06:14.480 I mean, they were yelling at each other.

00:06:16.320 They were interrupting each other.

00:06:17.500 They were insulting each other.

00:06:18.760 I thought that got a bit much on both sides.

00:06:22.480 At the end of the day, I doubt the debate changed a whole lot.

00:06:26.220 I think if you entered the evening supporting Trump, you left the evening still supporting

00:06:30.660 Trump.

00:06:31.180 And if you entered supporting Biden, you probably left supporting Biden.

00:06:35.020 Did you feel like Trump did well?

00:06:38.940 I thought he had some good moments.

00:06:40.780 I thought the best moment that Trump had was the contrast when he said, Joe Biden wants

00:06:47.840 to shut down the economy, shut down small businesses, take away your job, shut down the

00:06:52.020 schools.

00:06:52.600 I want to see the economy open.

00:06:54.280 I want small businesses open.

00:06:56.320 I want people to go back to work.

00:06:57.560 I want kids to go back to schools.

00:06:59.860 And this is a choice between which path America goes.

00:07:03.060 I thought that was a clear and important contrast and Trump's best moment of the night.

00:07:09.860 What did you make of all the interrupting?

00:07:11.420 People may not know that you're you're I mean, you're a storied debater.

00:07:15.880 You've you argued in front of the U.S.

00:07:17.320 Supreme Court nine times.

00:07:18.760 You've had 43 oral arguments at courts of appeal across the country, not to mention all

00:07:23.600 your years as a U.S.

00:07:24.480 senator.

00:07:24.760 So you've definitely got thoughts on how one debates well.

00:07:28.500 What did you make of it?

00:07:30.680 You know, I thought it was excessive.

00:07:32.020 I would have rather had a more reasoned conversation rather than just yelling at each other.

00:07:39.080 I also think several times Trump actually bailed Joe Biden out that that rather than letting

00:07:48.020 him answer, he'd interrupt with something else.

00:07:49.780 And I think I think Biden would have been in more trouble had he just spoken more.

00:07:57.240 I also think Chris Wallace did a very poor job moderating.

00:08:01.520 And you've obviously moderated those before and you've sat next to Chris doing it.

00:08:05.460 And it I think Chris did not follow the lines of impartiality.

00:08:14.180 I think he stepped in repeatedly to bail Joe Biden out in a way that I thought was was very

00:08:19.360 inappropriate.

00:08:19.960 Wait, I'll get to that in one sec.

00:08:21.920 But I want to I want to know, you know, as you're as you're watching the debate go down

00:08:27.620 and the interruptions are happening, do you are you thinking, how would I have handled

00:08:33.420 this if I were Joe Biden?

00:08:34.820 Because you've been you've debated debated Trump many times.

00:08:38.220 What would you have done if you've been on the receiving end of that?

00:08:40.640 Oh, look, I think Biden handled some of that pretty well.

00:08:48.360 Biden's biggest victory of the night was probably that that for the expectations for him were

00:08:56.220 so low that that that he was able to give give coherent answers and lay out his positions.

00:09:02.320 And I had been raising a caution flag for some time that I think conservatives convince themselves

00:09:08.840 that that Biden has full on dimension, that that he can't operate a remote control.

00:09:14.320 I think that's that that's exaggerated.

00:09:16.980 I think Joe has has lost a step, but but he, you know, was able to articulate what he believes

00:09:23.920 and he did did fine.

00:09:25.160 And that that was probably beneficial for Joe.

00:09:28.440 It was also helpful for him to at least purport to run away from some of the more radical positions

00:09:35.480 of his party.

00:09:36.240 So when he when Joe said he didn't support defunding the police, that was probably good

00:09:42.980 for him to say.

00:09:43.840 Now, I think Wallace and or Trump both should have pressed back on him and said, well, wait

00:09:48.720 a second here.

00:09:50.000 Your party certainly does.

00:09:51.680 The NYPD does when cutting a billion dollars.

00:09:55.100 The Austin Police Department does.

00:09:56.720 Portland does.

00:09:57.660 Minneapolis does.

00:09:59.600 And we're seeing the results.

00:10:01.100 I think there should have been a lot more pushback.

00:10:03.280 But Biden at least tried to run away from the more extreme and more unpopular positions.

00:10:09.300 Right.

00:10:09.740 The Green New Deal. 0.60

00:10:11.160 And he wouldn't comment on whether he's going to pack the U.S.

00:10:13.680 Supreme Court if he gets in office.

00:10:15.580 But you raise a good point because I guarantee you, I guarantee you, Chris Wallace had follow

00:10:19.680 ups to all of those.

00:10:21.360 There's no way he wouldn't have had that in his outline.

00:10:23.920 But he didn't get to ask any of them because the clock the clock kept ticking.

00:10:28.300 Trump kept interrupting.

00:10:30.060 It would spin out of control.

00:10:31.860 And as the moderator, I mean, I could I could almost feel his panic like the outlines gone.

00:10:36.560 The debate's gone.

00:10:37.680 And I'll defend him in this conversation just by saying sometimes when you're panicking over

00:10:43.600 the time that's that's ticking away, you try to do a fast wrap of the topic.

00:10:48.320 And I think Chris kind of gave it to Biden many times over the course of that hour and

00:10:54.600 a half in an attempt to move on and maybe didn't realize that he was leaning a little bit

00:10:59.620 more toward the one candidate than the other.

00:11:01.300 Yeah, look, I understand that.

00:11:04.660 And this was an incredibly difficult debate for anyone to moderate.

00:11:08.480 I mean, Trump is a force of nature and not a traditional debater, to put it mildly.

00:11:14.800 Um, you know, I think Chris snickered and laughed and had some smart alecky comments that I think

00:11:29.260 it's perfectly clear that that Chris is voting for Joe Biden and not Donald Trump.

00:11:33.040 And I think that came out in the debate.

00:11:35.300 And that is not a good thing for someone who's moderating a general election debate.

00:11:38.680 It, it, the questions he, he, he was willing to ask the questions that are the oppo dump 1.00

00:11:46.600 on Trump and, and he didn't have the same willingness to do that to Biden.

00:11:50.560 And, and I think that's, and, and actually something I suggested today, I, I'd like to

00:11:56.320 see how debates are done, uh, reformatted in that, what do you, what do you want to have

00:12:02.120 happen?

00:12:02.420 Look, I think there is a, a pretense of objectivity, but I think in Republican primaries, many of

00:12:13.080 the people who are moderating the debate are themselves liberal Democrats who want everyone

00:12:19.280 on the stage to lose.

00:12:20.780 Most, if you look at the political affiliations of journalists.

00:12:25.060 Um, and in the general election, uh, most of the people who, who moderate are, are also

00:12:31.000 Democrats themselves.

00:12:32.020 Um, you know, it was this, the next debate, uh, Scully was literally an intern for Joe

00:12:37.520 Biden and an intern for Ted Kennedy.

00:12:39.400 I mean, that's pretty remarkable.

00:12:40.600 I didn't know that.

00:12:41.720 Um, the guy moderating the next debate was an intern for Joe Biden.

00:12:45.460 Yes.

00:12:46.280 I mean, it's pretty stunning.

00:12:48.520 Wow.

00:12:49.120 Um, and, and look, people can have political backgrounds and, and, and be in journalism,

00:12:53.880 but, but what I would suggest is, is sort of drop the pretense.

00:12:58.140 And so I suggested two common sense rules going forward, which is number one, in a Republican

00:13:04.160 primary debate, the moderators should be people who actually will vote in a Republican primary.

00:13:10.420 Um, and, and that, I think that makes people more likely to ask the kinds of questions a

00:13:16.680 Republican primary voter would care about rather than in the Republican primary debates.

00:13:23.140 You have some, you, um, you know, you, you may remember one of the debates where, you

00:13:28.620 know, John Harwood was insulting everyone in the, in the primary debate.

00:13:32.580 And I kind of went off on him on it.

00:13:34.340 It, there was no doubt he was going to vote for the Democrat and he wanted all of us to

00:13:38.140 lose.

00:13:38.420 And, and so I think that's a strange way to do a primary debate.

00:13:41.580 And then what I suggested for the general election is rather than, rather than have sort of fake

00:13:49.340 impartiality, just own the bias and have one outspoken conservative and one outspoken liberal.

00:13:57.520 So I suggested a couple of pairings.

00:13:59.160 I said, you know, look, uh, Mark Levin and Chris, Chris Hayes, everyone knows, or, or Rush

00:14:05.420 Limbaugh and Rachel Maddow, um, or Ben Shapiro and, and, and Chris Cuomo.

00:14:11.860 All right.

00:14:12.400 Well, now I object to all of this.

00:14:13.360 The point on that.

00:14:14.280 No, I get it.

00:14:15.140 I get it.

00:14:15.460 Just be open about the bias.

00:14:16.760 But if I object to these rules, number one, because they would exclude me in any way, shape

00:14:20.380 or form, because I'm a registered independent and I think I know how to do a good debate.

00:14:25.440 A fair point.

00:14:26.920 And, and, and, and I actually agree.

00:14:28.640 You don't fall neatly into if you were sort of openly owning the bias that that might leave

00:14:33.540 you out.

00:14:33.900 So sorry, sorry about that.

00:14:36.140 I object to all of that.

00:14:37.060 And then, you know, most of the journalists will tell you, oh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm

00:14:40.100 independent or I'm, I'm nonpartisan and they really are.

00:14:43.220 I'm actually not.

00:14:43.980 I've been a registered Dem.

00:14:45.040 I've been a registered Republican.

00:14:46.400 I've been a registered independent for the past decade plus, but you know, I, I vote the,

00:14:51.280 I guess, man or woman, not the party, right? 0.90

00:14:53.320 You know, most, most politicians, present company accepted, irritate me.

00:14:57.080 And it's hard for me to feel real affinity for them, but maybe.

00:15:00.960 Look, I mean, I can, I can say candidly from having to be honest,

00:15:03.880 having done several debates with you moderating that, that you, you don't have the contempt

00:15:09.420 for the Republican field that a lot of the other moderators did.

00:15:13.180 And, and, and, and it came across, uh, it came across in the questions and the approach,

00:15:19.200 um, which is not, and by the way, the, those journalists are great for a democratic primary.

00:15:27.420 I mean, they actually reflect the, the democratic primary voters priorities because that's how

00:15:31.640 they're, they personally feel.

00:15:33.400 So, but the, the questions many of the primary debates have are, are not questions that actual

00:15:41.280 Republican voters care about.

00:15:43.760 Okay.

00:15:43.780 But let me, let me ask you one thing on that.

00:15:45.700 I agree that the, the Republicans are trying to figure out during their primary who represents

00:15:50.440 my view, who do I most want to see representing my party in the general, but the other piece

00:15:55.780 of it is who can win, you know, and I remember at that debate, you know, the now, the now infamous

00:16:01.680 debate with Trump and my question to him about the women, um, one of the things I was asking

00:16:06.860 Scott Walker about was whether he was too extreme on the, on the abortion issue, right?

00:16:11.440 Because most of the Republicans are just fine with somebody who's pro-life.

00:16:14.560 You kind of have to be pro-life if you want to win as a GOP presidential candidate.

00:16:18.980 Um, but I was pressing, I just chose to press him on whether that was going to be too

00:16:23.580 extreme because he didn't want any exceptions for the life or health of the mother and the

00:16:27.720 Democrats would go insane to win in a general.

00:16:31.280 So don't you think, you know, there, there's some value in, in having some representation

00:16:34.740 of what's important to the left and whether you can overcome it to get enough people in

00:16:40.020 the center to win.

00:16:41.940 So of course there is, but, but I actually think primary voters know that.

00:16:46.220 I mean, you get that question all the time.

00:16:48.080 Okay.

00:16:48.340 Who's, who's best position to win?

00:16:50.000 And, and so that's, if you look in the democratic primary, I mean, that's the main reason Joe

00:16:56.760 Biden ended up winning the nomination is because they had a very explicit conversation where

00:17:01.560 most of their party was with Elizabeth Warren and was with the far left and with Bernie.

00:17:06.560 But at the end of the day, Joe Biden convinced them in their primary that he had a better shot

00:17:12.080 of winning.

00:17:12.520 And so they had a very explicit conversation, but it wasn't a conversation.

00:17:16.720 I mean, imagine a democratic primary debate, this cycle moderated by Rush Limbaugh.

00:17:25.120 I mean, I mean, that would be kind of absurd, wouldn't it?

00:17:27.420 I mean, I mean, it'd be interesting.

00:17:31.540 And my point is that, that it's all one-sided that, that for a primary debate, you shouldn't

00:17:38.500 have people moderating it who want everyone on the, on the stage to lose.

00:17:41.960 You should actually have people moderating it who are saying, look, I, one of these guys,

00:17:48.740 I hope wins.

00:17:49.820 And then in the general, look, if we, if you were doing a debate, let's say with, with

00:17:55.380 Mark Levin and Chris Hayes, you'd get hard questions.

00:17:59.960 Both sides would get hard questions.

00:18:01.760 I mean, I try to pick people who are smart, serious.

00:18:04.420 I'm going to say, you know, I just did.

00:18:06.160 You do that and you add somebody, you add a news person in the center who can.

00:18:11.800 And I could live with that too.

00:18:13.580 That would be.

00:18:14.260 I think we've struck a deal.

00:18:15.620 I think we have it.

00:18:16.340 We obviously have it all set for when you run in 2024, which I'll get to in a minute.

00:18:21.500 But let's talk about the Supreme Court because that's the hottest issue of the day.

00:18:24.680 And you're the perfect person to ask about it.

00:18:26.260 Let's start broad.

00:18:27.640 Do you think Amy Coney Barrett is going to be confirmed?

00:18:29.980 And by when?

00:18:30.840 I do.

00:18:33.360 I feel very good about it.

00:18:35.000 I think she will be confirmed.

00:18:37.040 Obviously, the hearings start in judiciary on October 12th.

00:18:41.200 And I think we will confirm her by the end of the month.

00:18:44.160 I think she'll be confirmed before Election Day, which I think is really important to ensure

00:18:49.860 we have a full functioning non-justice Supreme Court there in case there are any election

00:18:57.140 disputes that come out.

00:18:57.940 You don't think there are any meaningful, effective tactics the Democrats can do to

00:19:02.660 stop it?

00:19:04.560 I don't.

00:19:05.720 And I hope there aren't.

00:19:07.540 Now, I mean, I'll admit we've been sitting and brainstorming with creative parliamentary

00:19:13.180 experts about everything.

00:19:15.100 I think they'll try everything they can.

00:19:16.760 And they may try some extraordinary things.

00:19:19.240 You know, they may try storming out and boycotting.

00:19:24.780 I think at the end of the day, that is is pretty limited.

00:19:28.800 Or what if there's suddenly someone that's not exactly this way, but like a Christine

00:19:33.680 Blasey Ford who suddenly comes out to die by with a hideous allegation against Judge

00:19:39.360 Barrett?

00:19:39.620 Well, I think I think they will try that if they can find anything.

00:19:44.340 So I sat down with with Judge Barrett this week and spent about 45 minutes with her in

00:19:50.820 the Capitol.

00:19:51.240 And I think she's she's very impressive. 0.61

00:19:53.680 Her credentials are very strong, but I was really impressed with her temperament.

00:19:57.340 I think her temperament is very calm.

00:19:59.400 It's it's scholarly.

00:20:01.300 It's a judicial temperament.

00:20:02.800 And and, you know, I told her, I said, listen, right now they're trying to find someone

00:20:07.860 who who went to third grade with you who hates your guts. 0.64

00:20:12.680 And and, you know, I don't know what's going to drop out of nowhere.

00:20:18.320 Look, I had in particular feel feel for her because she's got seven kids and we've seen

00:20:25.400 a couple of Democratic operatives begin by attacking the kids and attacking that the two

00:20:30.680 of the children were adopted from Haiti.

00:20:32.320 It's and I just think kids should be off limits.

00:20:34.960 I mean, I mean, it's I think that's despicable.

00:20:37.500 It's not only did we see Democratic operatives do it, but like there was one woman who worked 0.74

00:20:41.820 for both Democratic and congressional offices and campaigns.

00:20:44.820 She's tweeting about how she'd love to know which adoption agency Judge Barrett got her

00:20:48.880 children from and suggesting something untoward happened.

00:20:52.220 And then even Ibram X.

00:20:53.800 Kendi, the author of How to Be an Antiracist, Boston University professor, apropos of nothing.

00:20:59.960 Oh, it just had nothing to do with her, although it happened right after she was announced.

00:21:03.640 Tweets out some white colonizers adopted in quotes, black children.

00:21:08.540 They, quote, civilize these, quote, savage children in the, quote, superior ways of white 0.99

00:21:13.020 people while using them as props in their lifelong pictures of denial while cutting the biological

00:21:18.020 parents of these children out of the picture of humanity.

00:21:20.540 And whether this is Barrett or not is not the point.

00:21:24.920 It's a belief too many white people have.

00:21:26.680 If they have or adopt a child of color, then they can't be racist.

00:21:30.100 That didn't have anything to do with Barrett, even though she's mentioned nothing to do with

00:21:33.120 her.

00:21:34.540 I mean, it's I think it's twisted.

00:21:38.420 And and what I visited was like, how are the kids?

00:21:42.440 And and, you know, look, this is something I've I've seen firsthand having run for office.

00:21:48.660 As you know, our girls now, you've known them since they were little, but our girls now

00:21:51.980 are nine and 12.

00:21:54.140 I remember on the 2016 presidential campaign when when The Washington Post did an editorial

00:22:00.220 cartoon of Heidi's and my daughters where they drew them as dancing monkeys.

00:22:04.600 And the girls were, I think, five and seven at the time.

00:22:09.360 And Heidi and I had to sit down and tell them, OK, so there's this cartoon that was done of

00:22:15.020 you.

00:22:15.900 And it's I remember Catherine was just like, why?

00:22:18.100 Why would they draw me as a monkey?

00:22:19.800 And I was like, well, sometimes people are mean and they get angry, but it's OK.

00:22:24.960 And it was not.

00:22:26.120 And so I actually told told told Amy about that.

00:22:28.420 And I said, look, I've been in the position of trying to explain to young kids.

00:22:34.600 Why someone would draw them in into this kind of fight.

00:22:37.800 And so I do I hope that we don't see the hearings go that way.

00:22:41.860 I hope I hope that that that some some bit of decency holds the attack back.

00:22:47.480 But but who knows?

00:22:48.920 And we're already seeing it, you know, people attacking her Catholicism.

00:22:52.020 I mean, Bill Maher came out and called her an effing nutcase, talking about how how Catholic

00:22:57.320 she is.

00:22:57.960 And I know the Democrats are like, well, Nancy Pelosi is Catholic, too.

00:23:01.360 And sort of my or but they it is being made an issue of suggesting that The Handmaid's

00:23:06.840 Tale was written based on some sect that she's anyway, there's a lot already and it's going

00:23:10.960 to be ugly.

00:23:13.200 Question.

00:23:13.880 Some of the Democrats are saying she should recuse herself if we go through an election

00:23:19.220 nightmare and the case has to go up to the Supreme Court and she's on it, that she has

00:23:23.240 an obligation to recuse herself from deciding it.

00:23:25.540 Your thoughts on that?

00:23:26.320 So so I think that's an absurd claim.

00:23:29.380 I expect them actually to press it at the hearings.

00:23:31.380 And it was certainly it's certainly a talking point that you're seeing pushed.

00:23:35.880 One of the biggest reasons why it's important for us to confirm her to the court is that

00:23:42.960 this election in particular, I think there's a very significant likelihood that it's contested.

00:23:47.640 It's close.

00:23:48.280 I think either side that loses, there's a real chance they'll file litigation challenging

00:23:55.300 it.

00:23:55.680 As you know, I was part of the legal team in Bush versus Gore.

00:23:59.600 This is one of the things I talk about in my book, One Vote Away.

00:24:03.480 Each chapter in the book focuses on a different constitutional right.

00:24:06.700 And it talks about major landmark cases before the Supreme Court that I helped litigate.

00:24:12.360 And and Bush versus Gore, you know, I was a young lawyer in the George W. Bush campaign.

00:24:19.000 That's actually where where Heidi and I met.

00:24:20.700 We were in cubicles right down the hall from each other.

00:24:22.820 And in that election, as you remember, well, on election night, George W. Bush won and he

00:24:32.760 was declared the winner.

00:24:33.740 But then it became the margin was very close.

00:24:36.780 And so Al Gore challenged it, brought in lawyers and filed lawsuits to challenge it.

00:24:42.220 And and I was in Tallahassee, was in Florida for that entire time.

00:24:45.720 And it was it was complete chaos.

00:24:48.460 You know, I write in the book about how, like, we had a war room with a whiteboard on the

00:24:53.200 wall and and there were seven different lawsuits that were pending simultaneously, any one of

00:24:59.580 which could could cost the presidency of the United States and stakes that and twice that

00:25:07.220 case went to the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:25:09.140 The first time we won unanimously nine to nothing, where the Supreme Court said the Florida Supreme

00:25:14.620 Court, which was a partisan Democratic court, had gotten it wrong.

00:25:18.460 Um, the second time it went to the Supreme Court on the question of remedy, the court

00:25:24.680 divided five, four and and and the court held that the ballots had been counted four times.

00:25:32.440 Bush had won all four and that enough was enough, that that that they couldn't keep challenging

00:25:37.400 it over and over and over again and ended it.

00:25:39.900 It was 36 days of complete chaos where the country and the world didn't know who the next president

00:25:46.020 was going to be.

00:25:46.740 And it's going to be I think this year justices.

00:25:50.760 And if they're eight, if the court is divided four, four, they don't have the authority to

00:25:56.160 decide anything.

00:25:58.360 And and what could make it even.

00:26:01.140 So what makes it really crazy is is in Florida, you just had one jurisdiction where it was being

00:26:07.240 challenged.

00:26:07.820 I think there's a real possibility.

00:26:09.280 Let's say Biden, if he were to lose, I think Biden could file lawsuits in three or four or

00:26:14.500 five states.

00:26:15.240 And so you could have, say, the Ninth Circuit deciding a case out of Arizona and the 11th

00:26:22.040 Circuit deciding a case out of Florida.

00:26:23.720 Now, normally, if federal courts of appeals conflict, you go to the Supreme Court to resolve it.

00:26:29.820 If the Supreme Court were divided four, four, nobody knows what would happen.

00:26:33.820 You just have conflicting decisions and a constitutional crisis.

00:26:37.760 And Joe Biden would start appointing three extra judges from from his home in Delaware.

00:26:42.700 It's gotten so crazy, Senator, with with the the it's going to be nuts either way.

00:26:48.200 If Trump challenges to if he loses either way, we're headed for a massive, massive legal

00:26:53.300 battle.

00:26:54.660 And the and an important point, Megan, on the recusal.

00:26:57.920 So so I had a number of reporters asked me on the recusal and I asked them, I said, well,

00:27:02.680 do you think that that Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor should recuse themselves because they

00:27:09.100 were appointed in the Obama Biden administration?

00:27:11.060 And the answer, by the way, is, of course not, that that every justice was appointed by a

00:27:14.960 president and confirmed by a Senate.

00:27:16.820 And justices routinely have to rule on cases that involve the president administration that

00:27:22.300 appointed them.

00:27:22.900 That that's that's part of the job.

00:27:24.980 And and it is important to underscore, look, I don't want to see any justice confirmed because

00:27:31.340 that justice would rule for whatever candidate I happen to support.

00:27:35.900 That's not a Supreme Court justice's job.

00:27:37.760 What I want to see is a justice that will ensure that the law is followed, that if there's

00:27:41.740 litigation and uncertainty, we should follow federal law and follow the Constitution.

00:27:46.260 And that means whoever actually won the election should should be the winner.

00:27:52.680 And we should have a functioning Supreme Court that can ensure we're following the law and

00:27:58.000 and have have a clear, clear forum to resolve those disputes.

00:28:04.540 So not long ago, my husband, Doug, and I were visiting his mom and she had boxes and boxes of

00:28:10.740 slides of their family vacations when they were growing up.

00:28:14.420 His dad died a couple of years ago.

00:28:16.300 So we really wanted to see some of these things and just I would like to see Doug when he was

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00:31:06.980 Do you think that the threat that Joe Biden would not answer, whether he's prepared to

00:31:12.800 pack the court with additional justices, which, you know, they think would be more even if he wins,

00:31:19.320 if there is a Justice Coney Barrett sitting there, do you think they mean it?

00:31:23.260 I mean, doing it would be, it would devastate the court.

00:31:25.600 I think it ruins the Supreme Court.

00:31:26.900 There's no more Supreme Court, effectively.

00:31:28.560 So I feel like it's an empty threat.

00:31:33.360 So I don't.

00:31:35.340 I think they are deadly serious about it.

00:31:37.860 I think the anger on the far left is, it's not good for the country.

00:31:47.100 The rage and division we see, I worry about the country for it.

00:31:51.600 But I think if Biden wins and the Democrats take the Senate, I think within the first couple

00:31:58.080 of weeks, Schumer will end the filibuster.

00:32:00.440 And I think they have the votes for it.

00:32:02.160 I think every Democrat votes for it.

00:32:04.060 What that means, if you end the filibuster, it means that the minority in the Senate can

00:32:09.480 no longer stop whatever agenda they try to force through.

00:32:13.440 I think one of the first things they would do after ending the filibuster is add two new

00:32:20.420 states to the United States, add the District of Columbia and add Puerto Rico.

00:32:24.860 And the reason, and they've been very open about this, the reason is crassly political,

00:32:29.840 which is that they believe those, those jurisdictions would elect four new Democratic senators.

00:32:36.380 So if we started January with 50 Democratic senators, we could end the year with 54.

00:32:43.460 And, and then I believe that they would move to pack the court.

00:32:47.660 And I think they would probably have the votes.

00:32:49.840 It depends how big their margin is.

00:32:51.880 This week, Joe Manchin said he wouldn't, wouldn't do it.

00:32:55.380 And Dianne Feinstein has suggested she might not, although frankly, I'm skeptical if they

00:33:01.820 have the majority and push came to shove, I'm skeptical that any of the Democrats would,

00:33:06.560 would buck their leadership.

00:33:07.760 They are, they're much better at party discipline, frankly, than Republicans are.

00:33:13.760 And I think the threat to pack the court is very real.

00:33:17.680 And, and I agree with you that it would deeply politicize the court and it would set the stage

00:33:24.800 for the next Republican majority.

00:33:26.640 If they increase it to 11, we'd probably increase it to 13.

00:33:30.460 I mean, it turns the court, it really undermines the independence of the judiciary.

00:33:36.880 I think it'd be a terrible thing for the court.

00:33:38.460 That's something Ruth Bader Ginsburg herself said we should not do, that that is not the

00:33:42.920 solution as much, as many games as both sides have played when it comes to nominating lower

00:33:50.320 court judges and Supreme court justices.

00:33:52.720 I know you have a whole explanation as to why you don't think it's hypocritical for the

00:33:55.940 Republicans to push her through. 0.85

00:33:58.860 I do disagree with you.

00:34:00.380 I do think the Republicans have reversed themselves from four years ago, but putting that to the

00:34:04.940 side, it's going to happen.

00:34:06.380 And the Democrats have played dirty too.

00:34:08.700 And so the real question is what next?

00:34:10.820 How bad does the fight get in, in your book, uh, one vote away, uh, you've got stories about

00:34:16.660 your time clerking as a Supreme court clerk for then chief justice Rehnquist, but I didn't

00:34:22.460 know that you, you could have been on the short list.

00:34:26.140 Something was leaked about this, but that you were essentially offered a position on the short

00:34:30.780 list in June of 2020 by Trump.

00:34:33.060 Is that true?

00:34:33.520 Uh, it is so, so each of the three vacancies that occurred, I had very serious conversations

00:34:42.560 with Trump, uh, about them.

00:34:45.200 Uh, and, and it's, it started in November, 2016, right, right after the, of the election,

00:34:50.560 uh, where I, I flew to New York and went to Trump tower and spent about four and a half

00:34:56.340 hours with him and his senior team.

00:34:57.860 Um, and, and this was the Scalia vacancy that, that ultimately Neil Gorsuch, uh, filled and

00:35:04.200 Trump at the time, he leaned in pretty hard and, and talked, talked to me quite seriously

00:35:10.820 about that position.

00:35:12.720 Uh, and I told him then I, I said, I didn't want it, that I don't want to be a judge and

00:35:17.280 I don't want to go to the court.

00:35:18.320 Um, and, and the reason that surprises a lot of people, a lot of people find that a, a

00:35:24.380 strange thing for me to say.

00:35:26.360 Especially just given your background and, you know, the amount of arguments you've had

00:35:30.120 before the Supreme court, your time as a solicitor general of the state of Texas, U S

00:35:34.380 Senate, all of that.

00:35:35.180 I mean, yeah, you would think you'd, you'd want it cause it's, it's so prestigious.

00:35:39.580 Well, and I revere the court, but a, a principal judge stays out of political and policy fights.

00:35:46.980 And if I ever were a judge, I'd do that.

00:35:49.320 I don't want to stay out of the fights.

00:35:50.780 I want to be right in the middle of them.

00:35:52.320 And I, and I think the right place to do that is the political world.

00:35:55.860 The Senate is the battlefield.

00:35:57.280 And, and so, but I also write in the book that, that after that conversation with Trump,

00:36:02.220 I went back home and, and the decision really weighed on me.

00:36:06.400 I mean, it, it's justice Scalia is, is one of my all time heroes.

00:36:10.520 I knew the justice personally and, and, and he's, he was giant, uh, on the court and to

00:36:16.680 be seriously in contention to replace him.

00:36:20.240 I mean, it took your breath away.

00:36:21.580 And, and a lot of my close friends thought I was crazy because as I was wrestling with

00:36:28.100 this before Trump had made the decision, it was, I don't want to overstate it.

00:36:31.920 Trump didn't offer me the position, but it was clearly a, a real and live possibility.

00:36:37.320 And, and, and I thought about it.

00:36:39.860 I prayed about it.

00:36:40.700 I actually had this story I told the book.

00:36:42.460 I had my, my pastor came over one Sunday afternoon and, and we spent the afternoon talking

00:36:48.180 about it and praying about it.

00:36:49.100 And he had an interesting analogy that he drew.

00:36:52.820 He said he understood why I, I didn't want to do it.

00:36:56.060 And he said for him, he thought about it.

00:36:58.240 If someone offered him to be the leading theologian in the world and to be this, you know, deeply

00:37:05.020 respected academic theologian where he could have an impact on, on millions, but he'd have

00:37:10.100 to give up being a pastor.

00:37:11.320 He'd have to give up working with the members of the church and counseling them and being

00:37:14.580 a pastor.

00:37:15.300 He said, you know what?

00:37:16.180 I, I wouldn't do that even though it would be very impactful.

00:37:19.140 That's not my calling.

00:37:20.280 It's not, it's not how I want to spend my life.

00:37:24.660 And that, well, I had a real peace about it.

00:37:28.280 It could be that, you know, someday we could wind up with a president Cruz, which would,

00:37:32.520 which would be, you know, arguably more powerful.

00:37:36.680 I'll tell you one thing, just as an aside, I too loved Justice Scalia.

00:37:40.400 My, my judicial outlook is definitely more along the Scalia originalist line.

00:37:47.240 But I love and respect, respected Ruth Bader Ginsburg too.

00:37:50.600 I really, I didn't have the same philosophy as she did, but I just thought she was a great

00:37:53.940 woman and she was so strong.

00:37:55.500 And he's going to Harvard as one of only nine women and all the shit she took. 0.97

00:37:59.740 I just, I really respected her.

00:38:01.800 By the way, I love that she fell asleep on you.

00:38:03.620 She was a legendarian.

00:38:04.260 I love that she fell asleep on you during one of your Supreme Court arguments.

00:38:07.760 It was, so that was actually the Texas redistricting argument.

00:38:12.220 I tell the story.

00:38:13.080 I was there.

00:38:13.460 I watched this as a reporter and as a very young reporter for Fox.

00:38:17.160 It was, so it was an afternoon argument, which is unusual.

00:38:22.120 So it was at one o'clock instead of in the morning when they usually are.

00:38:25.440 And it was a two hour argument instead of a one hour argument.

00:38:28.580 And, and I think it's 2005, if I remember right.

00:38:32.820 And she put her head down on the bench and, and fell asleep for about 20 minutes.

00:38:38.820 And, and, and she had been, I think she had been under the weather and, and, and so it

00:38:44.120 made, you know, lots of new stories.

00:38:44.960 Well, also you might've been a little boring that day.

00:38:46.520 You might, it's possible that redistricting is not the sexiest subject.

00:38:50.160 I saw her do it many times and, and I'll never forget.

00:38:52.260 She was sitting next to Alito and, uh, he had just made it onto the bench and she fell

00:38:56.520 asleep and Alito was up there looking around, like, what's the protocol for this?

00:39:02.660 Like, do I, I'm new, do I, do I elbow her?

00:39:05.460 You know, do I gently, what do I do?

00:39:08.500 And in the end, he ignored it.

00:39:09.880 So I love Scalia.

00:39:10.580 And I went to Rehnquist's funeral just to cover it as a reporter.

00:39:14.160 And of course all the justices were there.

00:39:16.140 And I, I saw Scalia on the steps of the church afterward.

00:39:19.820 And he came right over to me and I'd been at Fox for a few years and I'd been covering

00:39:23.560 the Supreme court and, uh, he, he beelined over to me and I was like, oh my God, this

00:39:28.440 is it.

00:39:28.780 He's going to say he, he respects me and I'm a fair and balanced reporter and he appreciates

00:39:33.780 all my good work.

00:39:34.780 And sure enough, he walks up to me and he says, miss, would you mind taking a picture

00:39:39.500 of me and this gentleman right?

00:39:42.440 All right.

00:39:44.980 That's awesome.

00:39:45.620 He was, uh, Scalia was just a spectacular intellect and, and, and, and Rehnquist, I mean, you know,

00:39:58.420 he was my boss and he was utterly brilliant, totally different temperament than Scalia.

00:40:05.580 I mean, Scalia, as you know, was this loud, voluble, brilliant Italian.

00:40:11.300 I mean, he was, uh, um, I remember one time up at, at, at Harvard, he was talking at the

00:40:17.100 law school and a couple hundred people there and one of several of the students were raising

00:40:21.860 their hands for a question and, and he points at them and they're like, me, me, me.

00:40:25.280 And he's like, oh, it doesn't matter.

00:40:26.320 You're all bound to be hostile anyway.

00:40:27.720 Pick it.

00:40:28.560 And it was just, that's perfect.

00:40:31.580 I know he was so colorful, but I appreciate your stories about Rehnquist in the book too,

00:40:35.520 because first of all, I never knew that chief justice Rehnquist and Sandra Day O'Connor

00:40:39.740 dated or that you watched porn with them.

00:40:44.940 Can, can we just, can we address that?

00:40:46.880 Can we address the, how you watch pornography with the two Supreme court justices?

00:40:52.220 So this would have been 1996.

00:40:55.620 Um, and, and it was the first of the internet porn cases to make it to the Supreme court.

00:41:01.960 Um, and the justices, so I was a law clerk for Rehnquist and, and, you know, the justices

00:41:08.740 at the time didn't really know what the internet was.

00:41:11.040 I mean, this was right at the dawn of the internet.

00:41:13.460 And so the court librarians decided to, to do basically a training session for the justices

00:41:19.720 so they could see how the internet worked.

00:41:22.500 And so, and they ended up pairing the justices together, doing two chambers at a time.

00:41:26.880 So we were in this little room and, and they, they paired, this was just coincidence, but

00:41:33.100 they paired Rehnquist and O'Connor together.

00:41:34.980 So it was Rehnquist and O'Connor, uh, the chief had three clerks, O'Connor had four clerks.

00:41:40.140 So it was the seven clerks and the two justices in this little darkened room with the librarian

00:41:46.040 at the computer.

00:41:46.740 And I still remember she typed in cantaloupe misspelled with the search filter off.

00:41:53.860 And, and at the time, if you did that, you came back up with graphic hardcore porn.

00:41:59.880 Oh God.

00:42:00.720 And, and I, I still remember, I mean, look, it's awkward to be in a room with Sandra Day

00:42:06.580 O'Connor with like porn on the screen.

00:42:09.120 And I still remember what, what O'Connor said.

00:42:11.940 And she just kind of under her breath, she went, oh my, and it was, and I'm just like

00:42:19.880 not reacting at all.

00:42:21.780 And, and one of the, as awkward as it was for all of the law clerks, it must have been

00:42:28.740 awkward for Rehnquist and O'Connor because it, as you just mentioned, they were classmates

00:42:32.800 in law school at Stanford, uh, and they dated and, and actually he, he, uh, asked her hand

00:42:38.920 in marriage and she turned him down.

00:42:40.800 Wow.

00:42:41.540 Uh, well, it would have been really awkward if he had said, could you just, just see it

00:42:45.000 to the end?

00:42:45.320 The end part's great.

00:42:45.960 I've seen this.

00:42:48.740 Well, it, it, it was, uh, well, and they used to have, that actually used to be a routine

00:42:54.280 part of the Supreme court.

00:42:55.820 So in the seventies and eighties, the test for obscenity, the court would regularly adjudicate

00:43:03.640 whether a movie was obscene.

00:43:05.920 And so they would have, uh, viewings in the basement of the court where they'd play, you

00:43:11.440 know, I don't know if they played deep throat or, but you know, they'd have whatever the

00:43:15.000 case, the movie was that, that they were adjudicating and, and Potter Stewart, a former

00:43:20.120 justice had a, a famous test for obscenity, which is, um, I know, I know it when I see it.

00:43:26.860 I see a hundred percent a man came up with this.

00:43:28.740 There's zero chance a female judge said, what we're going to do is watch the, the movie 1.00

00:43:33.520 and then there's just no way a woman settled on that. 1.00

00:43:38.180 And I'm glad the court is out of that business now, but, but I, I think it's Woodward in,

00:43:42.940 in the brethren tell stories of, um, I think it was Thurgood Marshall clerks down watching

00:43:49.140 the movie who would, who would kind of heckle and be like, I know it.

00:43:53.180 I see it.

00:43:53.940 That's it.

00:43:54.660 Oh yeah.

00:43:55.080 I see it.

00:43:55.900 And, and I'm very glad the court is no longer, I just need to watch it for another, another

00:44:00.180 five or 10 minutes or 40.

00:44:02.640 So now they don't do that anymore, which is a good thing.

00:44:05.680 You, uh, you know, obviously had a lot of success in the judicial world, in the legal

00:44:10.740 world.

00:44:11.580 You, um, go on to run for Senator and win and become one of the most prominent senators

00:44:18.360 in the United States.

00:44:19.120 And then you decide to throw your hat in, uh, in the presidential race and did really well

00:44:23.820 last time around.

00:44:24.940 I mean, it was just down to you and Trump and it, uh, I followed you a lot on the campaign

00:44:30.440 trail.

00:44:30.740 I was at a lot of your rallies and there was tremendous love for you amongst the voters.

00:44:36.760 Uh, you just happened to be going up against a very unusual, extremely dynamic, unlike anything

00:44:42.020 we've ever seen before candidate on the other side.

00:44:44.300 But I, I wonder as a man, how hard it was when you finally had to admit that it was over.

00:44:54.460 So it was very hard.

00:44:56.060 Um, it was one of the hardest times in my life.

00:44:59.520 Now I look, I loved every second of the campaign trail.

00:45:03.260 I mean, I had, it's the most fun I've ever had.

00:45:05.740 Um, and, and we came very, very close.

00:45:10.300 We ended up winning 12 states at the end of the day, had, had about 8 million votes cast

00:45:14.920 for us.

00:45:16.220 Um, we had 326,000 volunteers.

00:45:21.660 Um, we had, we raised $92 million, which is the most money any Republican has ever raised.

00:45:28.700 Uh, in the history of primaries, we raised more than George W. Bush or John McCain or Mitt

00:45:32.880 Romney, uh, it was 1.8 million contributions that, that, that, and it was really, it was

00:45:38.160 an amazing grassroots movement.

00:45:40.720 And, and at the end of the day, Trump, Trump won and, and he is a, uh, a phenom.

00:45:46.920 Um, and, and in particular, he, he ended up receiving over $3 billion of, of, of free media

00:45:55.380 and that became too much to overcome.

00:45:56.880 Uh, and so, you know, one story I, I tell in the book is, is on the night that, that,

00:46:05.100 that we suspended the campaign, it was after the Indiana primary where the numbers were

00:46:09.080 clear that we did not have a path to victory.

00:46:12.120 And, uh, and so I, I went out that night and gave a speech and announced that, that we

00:46:19.300 were suspending the campaign.

00:46:20.520 And, and, and I still remember there was a woman in, in, in the crowd who, who, who let 0.80

00:46:26.320 out just, uh, uh, a shriek.

00:46:29.420 I mean, I mean, she just, she, and it, it pierced me and, and I barely could make it through

00:46:36.800 the rest of the speech.

00:46:37.820 And, and there were several hundred people there who were volunteers, who many of them

00:46:42.360 had traveled to Iowa, traveled to South Carolina.

00:46:46.640 And, uh, we set up, we had dorm rooms where people would come and camp and they'd go knock

00:46:50.360 on doors.

00:46:52.400 And I wanted to, to stay and personally thank every one of them and hug them.

00:46:57.700 And, and I just lacked the strength.

00:47:01.040 I, I, I, and so I, I went backstage because I, tears were running down my face and, and

00:47:06.160 there were a gazillion TV cameras there.

00:47:08.880 And, and as I write in the book, I said, look, I I'll be damned if I was gonna on the way out

00:47:14.580 of the race, let the press turn lion Ted into crying Ted.

00:47:18.300 I just was not going to cry in front of the TV camera.

00:47:20.620 So I needed to go backstage.

00:47:23.000 Um, good for you, but Heidi, it's not a good group of people.

00:47:27.880 Uh, it, uh, it, it, it was not going to be an image that I was going to give them, but

00:47:33.640 Heidi stayed out with, with everyone there for, I think over an hour.

00:47:38.340 Just, she had the strength to thank everyone just to, to hug them.

00:47:44.320 And, and, and I was grateful she was there.

00:47:46.680 I wished I could, I still feel guilty that I didn't stay out with them.

00:47:51.740 And it's good to hear that you have the same reaction most humans have, which is you can

00:47:56.380 hold it together.

00:47:57.160 But then as soon as you see somebody else is either feeling sorry for you or upset about

00:48:03.060 bad news you've just gotten, that's what pushes you over the edge.

00:48:06.560 Like you can hold it together until you see the sympathy or pain in someone else's eyes.

00:48:11.200 And then you gotta go knowing Heidi, by the way, I'm not surprised by the way, Heidi

00:48:15.600 Cruz is a powerhouse in her own right. 0.88

00:48:18.100 She, she's, I think it's fair to say she's the breadwinner in the family.

00:48:21.200 She's got a very powerful job in finance and, um, and was a lawyer and the whole bit. 0.73

00:48:26.020 And yet still is soft when the moment calls for it, which by the way is very possible.

00:48:31.340 Um, I want to ask you, and she's still my best friend.

00:48:34.720 I mean, I mean, it's a, it is a neat, we're coming up, uh, may will be our 20th anniversary

00:48:39.920 and, and it's, you know, we've, in fact, you know, we talk with our girls about, you know,

00:48:45.600 in marriage, my, my advice to our daughters is marry your best friend. 0.85

00:48:48.840 Like, like, like that, everything else is transient, you know, life, there are high points

00:48:54.040 and low points.

00:48:54.800 And, and if you're on a journey with someone who, who you are partners, that that's, that's

00:49:00.700 an incredible thing.

00:49:01.420 And I'm, I'm incredibly blessed in that regard.

00:49:05.440 My advice to my children is good little boys and girls never leave their mommy.

00:49:10.020 Never, never, ever.

00:49:13.940 Oh, and it gets terrifying.

00:49:15.780 Caroline is 12 right now.

00:49:17.080 And it's, it's, uh, I'm quite frightened for the teenage years.

00:49:21.020 You're, you're on the edge, man.

00:49:22.380 You are, you think running for president was hard.

00:49:24.540 You know, walking around New York city these days, it doesn't feel that safe.

00:49:30.620 Uh, a lot has happened here, especially where I am on the upper West side.

00:49:33.880 That makes you worried.

00:49:34.800 You know, I, I would not let my kids walk the dog by themselves at seven 30 in the evening.

00:49:40.620 Like I would have six months ago.

00:49:42.840 The character of the neighborhood is changing and the threat level is very clearly increasing.

00:49:48.160 And there have been shooting deaths in New York city.

00:49:50.580 Like we haven't seen in a long time.

00:49:52.080 So it's just, it's getting a little scarier.

00:49:53.700 And I know New York is not the only place where that's true.

00:49:57.540 Now, some people are here in New York.

00:49:59.320 You can't have concealed carry.

00:50:00.780 Uh, so if you want to carry a gun, forget about it, but they do allow pepper spray in

00:50:05.580 most places.

00:50:06.200 And there is a company called Palm industries that is making sort of the next gen of pepper

00:50:11.840 spray.

00:50:12.180 It's like good looking to hold the container and it works well.

00:50:16.620 So it's, it's kind of like the apple I'd say of Palm of, of, uh, pepper sprays.

00:50:21.480 It's got this intuitive, easy to use discreet look to it.

00:50:26.420 It's attractive, but it works.

00:50:28.640 They've leveraged decades worth of experience producing these aerosol products.

00:50:31.940 So they know how to create the most up-to-date, simple, safe, powerful self-defense products.

00:50:38.320 And, you know, they've made it.

00:50:39.820 So it's not overwhelming for you.

00:50:41.160 You don't, when you need your pepper spray, you need it right away.

00:50:43.680 You don't want to have to spend 40 minutes figuring it out.

00:50:46.380 Um, apparently all these elite trainers around the company love it.

00:50:49.240 They, they, they call it the go-to non-lethal sense, a self-defense product.

00:50:53.680 And, uh, they use the strongest and safest formulation legal to carry in all 50 States.

00:50:59.260 So if you're going to go the pepper spray route, you can't do better than this, no harmful

00:51:03.780 side effects.

00:51:04.620 It's got fast acting, powerful bursts of spray.

00:51:08.320 Uh, it goes a maximum distance of up to 12 feet and 12 seconds of continuous spray.

00:51:13.300 Good Lord.

00:51:14.080 Can you imagine?

00:51:14.900 That's good.

00:51:15.460 12 seconds.

00:51:16.060 That gives you enough time to start running.

00:51:17.780 Um, it's got a practical carry size, most compact half an ounce personal carrying unit

00:51:22.140 available, and you can get it in three different forms.

00:51:24.400 You can get it like a clip.

00:51:25.220 Usually the guys like that, cause you can clip it in your pockets of your pants.

00:51:29.540 You can get it in a key, which is like a key ring.

00:51:31.640 So ladies, you know how it is always scary when you're coming home to your house by yourself,

00:51:35.180 just you and your key ring.

00:51:36.360 So you could pop it right on there.

00:51:37.600 And then there's a snap, which you can sort of attach to a ring or a lanyard, which is

00:51:42.140 really sending a message.

00:51:43.060 Like, don't, don't even think about messing with me.

00:51:45.500 You know what this is around my neck.

00:51:47.700 Um, so deterrence is always good.

00:51:49.660 Anyway, it comes in 30 different design color combinations and you can get it again.

00:51:53.980 It's called Palm Pepper Spray at palmpepperspray.com.

00:51:57.640 That's P-O-M, pepperspray.com at Amazon.

00:52:00.960 Uh, and it's selected gun shops or pharmacies or retail stores throughout the country.

00:52:07.180 So we're starting a new feature for you today on the Megyn Kelly show called Sound Up.

00:52:12.380 It's where we take a sound bite, making the rounds in the news and weigh in with our thoughts.

00:52:18.060 Steve Krakauer, my executive producer, who also writes and produces Fourth Watch, which

00:52:23.120 is an awesome newsletter, which you guys should check out.

00:52:25.200 It's totally fair and balanced and I'm entertained by it all the time.

00:52:29.000 Uh, he's here with me.

00:52:29.840 So what's our first sound bite, Steve?

00:52:31.260 Thanks, Megan.

00:52:31.780 Yeah, we've got actually, yeah, two sound bites that are very related.

00:52:34.620 They're both about our good friend, Governor Andrew Cuomo from New York.

00:52:37.440 So the first one, he will just play it first and let you react.

00:52:41.140 I put my head on the pillow at night saying I saved lives.

00:52:46.580 That's how I sleep at night.

00:52:48.500 OMG.

00:52:51.060 Honestly, like if this guy, I've never seen such a juxtaposition between one's public image

00:52:58.240 and the facts.

00:52:59.900 I too was swept up by the Cuomo smoothness at the beginning of the coronavirus quarantine.

00:53:06.560 You know, I felt like the guy was giving it to me straight.

00:53:08.360 He had these press conferences.

00:53:09.740 He would tell you the good.

00:53:10.520 He would tell you the bad.

00:53:11.360 I'm like, OK, I get it.

00:53:12.480 I see what he's doing.

00:53:14.260 Boy, oh boy, did that change once the true data started coming in on the deaths in New

00:53:19.800 York state.

00:53:20.260 And the thing that he has not taken responsibility for is the thing my pal Janice Dean has been

00:53:28.780 jumping up and down trying to call attention to, which is the deaths in the New York nursing

00:53:34.140 homes.

00:53:34.700 Thanks to his order, his order, six thousand, six thousand plus of covid positive patients

00:53:43.380 were sent to nursing homes.

00:53:45.140 All right.

00:53:45.580 Since his order in that was in place for forty six days and people died.

00:53:52.360 We lost thousands of people.

00:53:53.980 We lost more than we lost on 9-11.

00:53:55.860 And the guy refuses to take responsibility.

00:53:59.080 He's blamed the nursing homes.

00:54:01.420 He blamed God.

00:54:03.320 He blamed.

00:54:04.460 I mean, like I could go down the list, but for him to then try to turn it into I, I put

00:54:09.640 my head on the pillow at night knowing I saved lives.

00:54:12.860 You know, tell it to the families of the people who died unnecessarily in the New York state

00:54:17.760 nursing homes.

00:54:18.480 I just I'll wait.

00:54:20.580 I'll wait.

00:54:21.380 Yeah, that was from a radio interview yesterday.

00:54:23.940 So still not taking any responsibility.

00:54:25.680 OK, staying with the Cuomo family.

00:54:27.080 Here's our second and final sound up clip.

00:54:30.360 You let in tens of thousands of people.

00:54:31.900 They went to the hubs.

00:54:33.520 That's why we got so sick.

00:54:34.740 Does it trouble you at all that New York and New Jersey had the highest death rates in the

00:54:36.980 country?

00:54:37.120 Of course.

00:54:37.620 Does that make you pause and say, gosh.

00:54:38.900 It all troubles me, Ted.

00:54:39.920 And to watch guys like you stand by and stroke your beard like a wise man instead of telling the

00:54:45.020 president to get on it when you have power is a problem.

00:54:47.080 How about tell your brother to get on it?

00:54:49.180 My brother will stand for his own record.

00:54:50.940 How about thinking about the public policy?

00:54:51.380 Why don't you talk to the president the way you talk to my brother, Ted?

00:54:54.340 You afraid of him?

00:54:55.300 You think he'll smack you down at home?

00:54:57.180 Oh, yeah.

00:54:57.520 Is that what it is?

00:54:57.980 Like he shut you up in the primary?

00:54:59.100 I'm terrified of the Cuomos.

00:54:59.560 You guys are really tough.

00:55:00.620 I'm not the Cuomos.

00:55:00.900 I'm talking about the president.

00:55:02.400 My brother's not the president.

00:55:03.920 I'm talking about the president.

00:55:05.020 The one who called you a liar.

00:55:06.880 The one who said your wife was ugly.

00:55:08.360 That guy.

00:55:08.900 You know, the guy now who you won't say anything about.

00:55:11.080 I recognize that you like it.

00:55:13.300 You actually wonder why you don't have a lot of Republicans that want to come on your

00:55:16.380 show.

00:55:16.660 I have more than any other show.

00:55:18.140 You yell at me and insult me.

00:55:19.900 I'm not yelling at you.

00:55:22.000 And by more than any other show on CNN, Chris Cuomo means I've just had this one.

00:55:27.440 I have this one who appeared on my show tonight.

00:55:30.740 Well, that's a timely one.

00:55:32.460 And we got to take it up with Ted Cruz.

00:55:34.200 Speaking of children, I saw parts of your interview last night with Chris Cuomo.

00:55:46.080 I don't know why you went on that show.

00:55:48.600 I know you're you're selling a book, but still, I don't know who in his audience is going to

00:55:54.480 buy Ted Cruz's book.

00:55:55.880 And he was just as disrespectful to you as I'm sure your team predicted.

00:56:00.520 And to me, it was infuriating.

00:56:02.500 It was infuriating.

00:56:03.480 He was he was like he was worse than Trump was at the at the debate with interruptions

00:56:09.120 and putting you down and picking a fight and then claiming the moral high ground.

00:56:13.980 And you two really got into it over COVID.

00:56:17.320 I mean, the whole interview with with Cuomo was I mean, it was a mud fest and he was attacking

00:56:21.540 and screaming and yelling.

00:56:22.560 And actually, I mentioned during the interview, he was behaving like the debaters in Tuesday's

00:56:27.640 debate and and and and not wanting to have a an actual conversation and a civil conversation.

00:56:35.060 And I think it's somewhat indicative of the sort of angry, screaming time we find ourselves in.

00:56:40.700 What are you doing?

00:56:41.660 You know, one on that show.

00:56:44.900 Because I want to reach a broader audience.

00:56:48.240 The the book One Vote Away, I think addresses a lot of important issues.

00:56:54.360 And, you know, I made the case on that show also that, listen, I recognize that that a lot

00:57:00.000 of your viewers may come from a different spot politically than I am.

00:57:03.540 But if you want to understand why so many millions of people are deeply concerned about the Supreme

00:57:09.640 Court or deeply concerned and want to protect free speech and religious liberty in the Second

00:57:13.660 Amendment, I encourage you to read the book because it gives you the inside story of what's

00:57:18.280 going on and it may help you get a perspective on on a very large chunk of of the country.

00:57:27.220 And I don't know if that message resonated with anyone or not, but I went on there and look,

00:57:31.580 I anticipated that he would come at me.

00:57:33.640 I didn't think he would be as personal and nasty as he was.

00:57:39.620 But but I was perfectly fine.

00:57:41.520 You know, I mean, I've done done lots of shows.

00:57:43.940 I've done, you know, done Chris Matthews.

00:57:46.700 I've done Chris Hayes.

00:57:47.800 You know, I mean, I I will will do, you know, I did Jake Tapper just recently to Chuck Todd

00:57:52.520 all the time.

00:57:53.080 And I'm used to having more respectful.

00:57:54.960 Jake Tapper would never ask a question like that.

00:57:56.960 Never.

00:57:57.680 I mean, he would not.

00:57:58.860 And and I've known Jake since he was a young reporter at Slate covering the George W.

00:58:05.500 Bush 2000 campaign.

00:58:07.280 And and he, you know, Cuomo behaved.

00:58:12.780 I thought it was over the top.

00:58:14.300 Um, you know, there is an interesting reaction.

00:58:18.880 So lefties, they're they're standard. 0.73

00:58:21.100 And this is true on Twitter.

00:58:22.100 You know, I mean, I read a lot of the terrible things people say on Twitter, but the first

00:58:26.280 place lefties go is Trump insulted your wife and your dad.

00:58:30.940 Trump insulted like it's the number one attack.

00:58:32.780 And and they, you know, look, Cuomo was reveling and repeating it over and over again and kind

00:58:37.760 of it's sort of an excuse to stick the knife in.

00:58:40.560 And listen, 2016 was bare knuckled.

00:58:45.740 Trump said things I didn't like and I and I popped back hard and we had a hell of a fight.

00:58:51.880 And and then it's over.

00:58:53.200 We put it beyond us.

00:58:54.320 And by the way, Heidi and my dad have put it beyond them, too.

00:58:57.320 They both care about the country.

00:58:58.680 And and, you know, the the view of some on the left is given that fight that I don't

00:59:04.440 know, I guess I should have, what, taken my marbles and gone home and said, I'm not going

00:59:08.020 to work with the president and I'm not going to fight for good Supreme Court justices and

00:59:11.920 I'm not going to fight for tax cuts or jobs that that that to me doesn't make any sense.

00:59:17.340 I've got a job to do, so I'm going to work with a man. 0.81

00:59:19.720 Well, I mean, they were quick to overlook it when Kamala Harris became the vice presidential

00:59:23.880 nominee of a man she said was a racist and may have committed a sexual assault.

00:59:28.820 I mean, politics is ugly and it's true on both sides that mean things get said during

00:59:34.220 the primary.

00:59:35.100 And there are many reasons why you might be willing to overlook it when time goes on.

00:59:39.780 All right.

00:59:40.080 I got to let you go.

00:59:41.020 But I have to ask you what you think is going to happen on November 3rd.

00:59:47.320 So I genuinely don't know.

00:59:48.920 I think it is it is volatile.

00:59:51.220 I don't recall ever seeing an election that is this volatile.

00:59:55.380 I think it depends what happens over the next month.

00:59:57.640 I think the biggest thing it depends on is is if people are going back to work, if people

01:00:04.140 are feeling optimistic about the future, if if people are hopeful, I think it could be

01:00:10.000 a very good election.

01:00:10.860 I think Trump could get reelected.

01:00:12.240 I think we could grow our majority in the Senate.

01:00:14.720 I think Republicans could even take the House back.

01:00:16.540 On the flip side, if we have more shutdowns, if more people are out of work, if people are

01:00:22.840 home and broke and unemployed and pissed off, I think it could be a devastating election where

01:00:30.120 Democrats could win across the board.

01:00:31.780 And and I I think a Biden Pelosi Schumer federal government would do more damage than Obama did

01:00:41.540 in eight years.

01:00:42.140 And and so I've I've never seen an election that has such wildly disparate outcomes that

01:00:49.200 I think are entirely possible.

01:00:52.140 It's one of the reasons I wrote this book, One Vote Away, why I wrote it this summer is

01:00:57.100 because in thinking about the stakes, I think preserving the Bill of Rights and our constitutional

01:01:04.080 liberties, preserving free speech, preserving religious liberty, preserving the Second Amendment

01:01:08.760 are is incredibly important.

01:01:10.960 I actually think it's the most important issue in the race.

01:01:12.960 And so I wrote the book to coincide with the election because I hope people read it.

01:01:17.880 That's why I went on CNN.

01:01:19.460 I hope someone reads it and says, you know what, even if I may not personally care for

01:01:24.340 Donald Trump and I understand why people have that reaction, I care about free speech.

01:01:29.640 I care about religious liberty.

01:01:31.260 I don't want to see a Supreme Court that undermines my rights.

01:01:35.520 And I hope that that helps produce a good election outcome and helps people also understand

01:01:40.920 the stakes in in in the epic gladiatorial battle we have right now with with Judge Barrett.

01:01:48.120 Yeah.

01:01:49.460 Any chance we're going to see you on the presidential ticket or vying to get on it in 2024?

01:01:55.780 Oh, sure, sure.

01:01:56.800 Look, I've made no secret about that, that I hope to run again.

01:02:00.480 And I love doing it last time.

01:02:02.520 And I hope the president is reelected.

01:02:05.540 I'm working hard to help him get reelected.

01:02:07.140 But but whether he is or not, these battles aren't going away.

01:02:11.520 Our country is deeply divided.

01:02:14.880 You know, I also I think we need to do much more those on the right conservatives to win

01:02:21.260 people's hearts and minds.

01:02:22.560 I think we spend too much time just talking to preaching to the choir, talking to the people

01:02:28.060 watching Fox News each night and not talking to young people and Hispanics and African-Americans

01:02:34.420 and suburban moms. 1.00

01:02:36.560 And and and so the book is one step trying to do that.

01:02:40.920 You know, I I launched a podcast earlier this year, Verdict with Ted Cruz.

01:02:45.440 It ended up becoming the number one ranked podcast in the world.

01:02:48.440 And it's and it's designed.

01:02:51.960 What's interesting is the people who listen to it.

01:02:54.600 We've had over 15 million downloads and the people who listen to it are a very different

01:02:59.500 demographic than the folks Republicans generally talk to.

01:03:04.040 And so I'm well, the audience is very committed, tends to be older and the podcast audience tends

01:03:08.700 to be younger.

01:03:09.860 And look, you're only 49 years old, which I think I can speak to is very, very young.

01:03:15.520 It's it's really the new 39.

01:03:17.740 So you got plenty of runway ahead of you and it's going to be fun to watch you.

01:03:22.980 Senator Cruz, thanks for being here.

01:03:24.980 Well, thanks for having me and congrats again on the podcast.

01:03:29.820 Our thanks to Senator Ted Cruz and our thanks to you for listening.

01:03:37.620 You can go right now if you haven't already and subscribe to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:03:42.260 If you don't know how to do it, you just download the podcasts app.

01:03:45.760 From your app store.

01:03:47.080 And once you're in there, just search for Megyn Kelly and I'll come right up and then

01:03:50.340 you can hit subscribe and download.

01:03:52.600 Apparently you have to download too.

01:03:54.440 It's a two step operation and potentially a three step operation.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - October 02, 2020

Sen. Ted Cruz on the Supreme Court, the Debates and the Media ｜ Ep. 4

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