Sen. Ted Cruz on the Supreme Court, the Debates and the Media ｜ Ep. 4
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 4 minutes
Words per Minute
183.83844
Summary
Ted Cruz calls for new rules on who can moderate the 2020 Democratic Debates. Megyn Kelly defends herself for being fair to both sides of the debate. And Evan Hafer talks about his coffee company, Black Rifle Coffee Company.
Transcript
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Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest and provocative conversations.
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Hey everybody, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
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and he has got some strong thoughts on the debate this week
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and is actually calling now for new rules to be implemented
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suggesting there is too much anti-Trump or anti-Republican bias
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that the Commission on Presidential Debates are making.
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And it's interesting to me because I will tell you
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I had my own experience this week where I live tweeted the debate
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and was promptly met by an article from some website
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that normally traffics in the Kardashians and the Bachelorette
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saying one thing is clear from her Twitter feed
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So this is what happens when you just cover him and Joe Biden fairly, right?
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When you just say, okay, point Biden, point Trump, point Biden, point Trump.
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And I encourage anybody to go back and look at my Twitter at Megyn Kelly
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Unless you are talking about Trump as though he is frothing at the mouth
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You're in the tank for him and you're clearly voting for him.
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And I will tell you, even when Trump and I are good now,
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but when he was coming after me for all that time after our debate last time around,
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He did a couple of really crazy things like going after the Gold Star family.
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But I covered him very fairly and defended him on a lot of stuff,
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even though personally I wasn't that happy with the guy.
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And that is the challenge that these journalists face today.
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They make no pretense of even trying to hide it.
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But you owe it to your audience to try, you know, just to be fair.
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And honestly, if you don't, you're going to lose him.
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There's not a single Trump fan in the country that trusts CNN or MSNBC.
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Whereas I do think some center lefties watch Fox News.
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They certainly did watch the Kelly file when I was on.
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So I think this sort of attitude is at their own peril.
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Is it that hard to try to be fair to both sides?
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As Scarlett O'Hara said, tomorrow is another day.
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Evan Hafer is a guy who started a coffee company after about 20 years in the U.S.
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Army as an infantryman, special forces soldier and CIA contractor.
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And the company he started is called Black Rifle Coffee Company.
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And this guy served our country honorably and understood the troops needed something very
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He started roasting his own coffee in 2006 to bring with him while overseas.
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And then he modified his gun truck in the invasion of Iraq to grind his coffee.
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And this is a man who's committed to his coffee.
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So he founded BRCC, Black Rifle Coffee Company, in 2014, along with his buddy, Army Ranger
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As the combination of two passions, it would be to develop premium, fresh roasted coffee
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and also to honor and support those who serve on the front lines.
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So put your passion into those and success will follow.
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So his company, Black Rifle Coffee Company, has donated over 45,000 pounds of coffee or over
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1 million cups of coffee, if you want to look at it that way, to soldiers deployed overseas,
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as well as law enforcement officers, wildland firefighters on the West Coast, and medical
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workers during the COVID-19 response, just in 2020 alone.
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Now, the best way to enjoy this stuff, Black Rifle Coffee, is just to join the coffee club.
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It's free to sign up and you get a whole range of benefits, like free shipping and discounts
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on partner brands and early access to the new products.
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So if you're interested in supporting these guys, and why wouldn't you be, go to
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Okay, blackriflecoffee.com forward slash MK and check out the freshest coffee in America.
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They spend hours and hours of tasting and sourcing and perfecting the perfect coffee from around
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Blackriflecoffee.com slash MK will get you 20% off coffee, apparel, and gear, as well
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as 20% off your first month of the coffee club.
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It's great to be with you, Megan, and congrats on the new podcast.
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You know, you were the very first guest on The Kelly File, which turned out to be a very
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And so here you are, my very first week on The Megyn Kelly Show.
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Well, I remember well, and you took off like a phenom on Fox, and I'm sure you will in the
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Now, the question for you is whether Donald Trump or Joe Biden took off like a phenom at
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Oh, look, I think that the whole thing was a mess.
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At the end of the day, I doubt the debate changed a whole lot.
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I think if you entered the evening supporting Trump, you left the evening still supporting
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And if you entered supporting Biden, you probably left supporting Biden.
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I thought the best moment that Trump had was the contrast when he said, Joe Biden wants
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to shut down the economy, shut down small businesses, take away your job, shut down the
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And this is a choice between which path America goes.
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I thought that was a clear and important contrast and Trump's best moment of the night.
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People may not know that you're you're I mean, you're a storied debater.
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You've had 43 oral arguments at courts of appeal across the country, not to mention all
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So you've definitely got thoughts on how one debates well.
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I would have rather had a more reasoned conversation rather than just yelling at each other.
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I also think several times Trump actually bailed Joe Biden out that that rather than letting
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him answer, he'd interrupt with something else.
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And I think I think Biden would have been in more trouble had he just spoken more.
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I also think Chris Wallace did a very poor job moderating.
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And you've obviously moderated those before and you've sat next to Chris doing it.
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And it I think Chris did not follow the lines of impartiality.
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I think he stepped in repeatedly to bail Joe Biden out in a way that I thought was was very
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But I want to I want to know, you know, as you're as you're watching the debate go down
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and the interruptions are happening, do you are you thinking, how would I have handled
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Because you've been you've debated debated Trump many times.
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What would you have done if you've been on the receiving end of that?
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Oh, look, I think Biden handled some of that pretty well.
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Biden's biggest victory of the night was probably that that for the expectations for him were
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so low that that that he was able to give give coherent answers and lay out his positions.
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And I had been raising a caution flag for some time that I think conservatives convince themselves
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that that Biden has full on dimension, that that he can't operate a remote control.
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I think Joe has has lost a step, but but he, you know, was able to articulate what he believes
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It was also helpful for him to at least purport to run away from some of the more radical positions
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So when he when Joe said he didn't support defunding the police, that was probably good
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Now, I think Wallace and or Trump both should have pressed back on him and said, well, wait
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I think there should have been a lot more pushback.
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But Biden at least tried to run away from the more extreme and more unpopular positions.
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And he wouldn't comment on whether he's going to pack the U.S.
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But you raise a good point because I guarantee you, I guarantee you, Chris Wallace had follow
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There's no way he wouldn't have had that in his outline.
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But he didn't get to ask any of them because the clock the clock kept ticking.
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And as the moderator, I mean, I could I could almost feel his panic like the outlines gone.
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And I'll defend him in this conversation just by saying sometimes when you're panicking over
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the time that's that's ticking away, you try to do a fast wrap of the topic.
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And I think Chris kind of gave it to Biden many times over the course of that hour and
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a half in an attempt to move on and maybe didn't realize that he was leaning a little bit
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And this was an incredibly difficult debate for anyone to moderate.
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I mean, Trump is a force of nature and not a traditional debater, to put it mildly.
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Um, you know, I think Chris snickered and laughed and had some smart alecky comments that I think
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it's perfectly clear that that Chris is voting for Joe Biden and not Donald Trump.
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And that is not a good thing for someone who's moderating a general election debate.
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It, it, the questions he, he, he was willing to ask the questions that are the oppo dump
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on Trump and, and he didn't have the same willingness to do that to Biden.
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And, and I think that's, and, and actually something I suggested today, I, I'd like to
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see how debates are done, uh, reformatted in that, what do you, what do you want to have
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Look, I think there is a, a pretense of objectivity, but I think in Republican primaries, many of
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the people who are moderating the debate are themselves liberal Democrats who want everyone
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Most, if you look at the political affiliations of journalists.
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Um, and in the general election, uh, most of the people who, who moderate are, are also
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Um, you know, it was this, the next debate, uh, Scully was literally an intern for Joe
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Um, the guy moderating the next debate was an intern for Joe Biden.
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Um, and, and look, people can have political backgrounds and, and, and be in journalism,
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but, but what I would suggest is, is sort of drop the pretense.
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And so I suggested two common sense rules going forward, which is number one, in a Republican
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primary debate, the moderators should be people who actually will vote in a Republican primary.
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Um, and, and that, I think that makes people more likely to ask the kinds of questions a
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Republican primary voter would care about rather than in the Republican primary debates.
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You have some, you, um, you know, you, you may remember one of the debates where, you
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know, John Harwood was insulting everyone in the, in the primary debate.
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It, there was no doubt he was going to vote for the Democrat and he wanted all of us to
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And, and so I think that's a strange way to do a primary debate.
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And then what I suggested for the general election is rather than, rather than have sort of fake
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impartiality, just own the bias and have one outspoken conservative and one outspoken liberal.
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I said, you know, look, uh, Mark Levin and Chris, Chris Hayes, everyone knows, or, or Rush
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Limbaugh and Rachel Maddow, um, or Ben Shapiro and, and, and Chris Cuomo.
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But if I object to these rules, number one, because they would exclude me in any way, shape
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or form, because I'm a registered independent and I think I know how to do a good debate.
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You don't fall neatly into if you were sort of openly owning the bias that that might leave
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And then, you know, most of the journalists will tell you, oh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm
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independent or I'm, I'm nonpartisan and they really are.
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I've been a registered independent for the past decade plus, but you know, I, I vote the,
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You know, most, most politicians, present company accepted, irritate me.
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And it's hard for me to feel real affinity for them, but maybe.
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Look, I mean, I can, I can say candidly from having to be honest,
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having done several debates with you moderating that, that you, you don't have the contempt
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for the Republican field that a lot of the other moderators did.
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And, and, and, and it came across, uh, it came across in the questions and the approach,
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um, which is not, and by the way, the, those journalists are great for a democratic primary.
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I mean, they actually reflect the, the democratic primary voters priorities because that's how
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So, but the, the questions many of the primary debates have are, are not questions that actual
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I agree that the, the Republicans are trying to figure out during their primary who represents
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my view, who do I most want to see representing my party in the general, but the other piece
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of it is who can win, you know, and I remember at that debate, you know, the now, the now infamous
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debate with Trump and my question to him about the women, um, one of the things I was asking
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Scott Walker about was whether he was too extreme on the, on the abortion issue, right?
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Because most of the Republicans are just fine with somebody who's pro-life.
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You kind of have to be pro-life if you want to win as a GOP presidential candidate.
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Um, but I was pressing, I just chose to press him on whether that was going to be too
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extreme because he didn't want any exceptions for the life or health of the mother and the
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So don't you think, you know, there, there's some value in, in having some representation
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of what's important to the left and whether you can overcome it to get enough people in
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So of course there is, but, but I actually think primary voters know that.
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And, and so that's, if you look in the democratic primary, I mean, that's the main reason Joe
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Biden ended up winning the nomination is because they had a very explicit conversation where
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most of their party was with Elizabeth Warren and was with the far left and with Bernie.
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But at the end of the day, Joe Biden convinced them in their primary that he had a better shot
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And so they had a very explicit conversation, but it wasn't a conversation.
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I mean, imagine a democratic primary debate, this cycle moderated by Rush Limbaugh.
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I mean, I mean, that would be kind of absurd, wouldn't it?
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And my point is that, that it's all one-sided that, that for a primary debate, you shouldn't
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have people moderating it who want everyone on the, on the stage to lose.
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You should actually have people moderating it who are saying, look, I, one of these guys,
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And then in the general, look, if we, if you were doing a debate, let's say with, with
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Mark Levin and Chris Hayes, you'd get hard questions.
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I mean, I try to pick people who are smart, serious.
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You do that and you add somebody, you add a news person in the center who can.
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We obviously have it all set for when you run in 2024, which I'll get to in a minute.
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But let's talk about the Supreme Court because that's the hottest issue of the day.
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Do you think Amy Coney Barrett is going to be confirmed?
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Obviously, the hearings start in judiciary on October 12th.
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And I think we will confirm her by the end of the month.
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I think she'll be confirmed before Election Day, which I think is really important to ensure
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we have a full functioning non-justice Supreme Court there in case there are any election
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You don't think there are any meaningful, effective tactics the Democrats can do to
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Now, I mean, I'll admit we've been sitting and brainstorming with creative parliamentary
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You know, they may try storming out and boycotting.
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I think at the end of the day, that is is pretty limited.
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Or what if there's suddenly someone that's not exactly this way, but like a Christine
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Blasey Ford who suddenly comes out to die by with a hideous allegation against Judge
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Well, I think I think they will try that if they can find anything.
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So I sat down with with Judge Barrett this week and spent about 45 minutes with her in
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Her credentials are very strong, but I was really impressed with her temperament.
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And and, you know, I told her, I said, listen, right now they're trying to find someone
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who who went to third grade with you who hates your guts.
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And and, you know, I don't know what's going to drop out of nowhere.
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Look, I had in particular feel feel for her because she's got seven kids and we've seen
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a couple of Democratic operatives begin by attacking the kids and attacking that the two
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It's and I just think kids should be off limits.
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I mean, I mean, it's I think that's despicable.
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It's not only did we see Democratic operatives do it, but like there was one woman who worked
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for both Democratic and congressional offices and campaigns.
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She's tweeting about how she'd love to know which adoption agency Judge Barrett got her
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children from and suggesting something untoward happened.
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Kendi, the author of How to Be an Antiracist, Boston University professor, apropos of nothing.
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Oh, it just had nothing to do with her, although it happened right after she was announced.
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Tweets out some white colonizers adopted in quotes, black children.
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They, quote, civilize these, quote, savage children in the, quote, superior ways of white
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people while using them as props in their lifelong pictures of denial while cutting the biological
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parents of these children out of the picture of humanity.
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And whether this is Barrett or not is not the point.
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If they have or adopt a child of color, then they can't be racist.
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That didn't have anything to do with Barrett, even though she's mentioned nothing to do with
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And and what I visited was like, how are the kids?
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And and, you know, look, this is something I've I've seen firsthand having run for office.
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As you know, our girls now, you've known them since they were little, but our girls now
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I remember on the 2016 presidential campaign when when The Washington Post did an editorial
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cartoon of Heidi's and my daughters where they drew them as dancing monkeys.
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And the girls were, I think, five and seven at the time.
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And Heidi and I had to sit down and tell them, OK, so there's this cartoon that was done of
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And it's I remember Catherine was just like, why?
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And I was like, well, sometimes people are mean and they get angry, but it's OK.
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And so I actually told told told Amy about that.
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And I said, look, I've been in the position of trying to explain to young kids.
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Why someone would draw them in into this kind of fight.
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And so I do I hope that we don't see the hearings go that way.
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I hope I hope that that that some some bit of decency holds the attack back.
00:22:48.920
And we're already seeing it, you know, people attacking her Catholicism.
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I mean, Bill Maher came out and called her an effing nutcase, talking about how how Catholic
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And I know the Democrats are like, well, Nancy Pelosi is Catholic, too.
00:23:01.360
And sort of my or but they it is being made an issue of suggesting that The Handmaid's
00:23:06.840
Tale was written based on some sect that she's anyway, there's a lot already and it's going
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Some of the Democrats are saying she should recuse herself if we go through an election
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nightmare and the case has to go up to the Supreme Court and she's on it, that she has
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an obligation to recuse herself from deciding it.
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I expect them actually to press it at the hearings.
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And it was certainly it's certainly a talking point that you're seeing pushed.
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One of the biggest reasons why it's important for us to confirm her to the court is that
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this election in particular, I think there's a very significant likelihood that it's contested.
00:23:48.280
I think either side that loses, there's a real chance they'll file litigation challenging
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As you know, I was part of the legal team in Bush versus Gore.
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This is one of the things I talk about in my book, One Vote Away.
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Each chapter in the book focuses on a different constitutional right.
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And it talks about major landmark cases before the Supreme Court that I helped litigate.
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And and Bush versus Gore, you know, I was a young lawyer in the George W. Bush campaign.
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We were in cubicles right down the hall from each other.
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And in that election, as you remember, well, on election night, George W. Bush won and he
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And so Al Gore challenged it, brought in lawyers and filed lawsuits to challenge it.
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And and I was in Tallahassee, was in Florida for that entire time.
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You know, I write in the book about how, like, we had a war room with a whiteboard on the
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wall and and there were seven different lawsuits that were pending simultaneously, any one of
00:24:59.580
which could could cost the presidency of the United States and stakes that and twice that
00:25:09.140
The first time we won unanimously nine to nothing, where the Supreme Court said the Florida Supreme
00:25:14.620
Court, which was a partisan Democratic court, had gotten it wrong.
00:25:18.460
Um, the second time it went to the Supreme Court on the question of remedy, the court
00:25:24.680
divided five, four and and and the court held that the ballots had been counted four times.
00:25:32.440
Bush had won all four and that enough was enough, that that that they couldn't keep challenging
00:25:39.900
It was 36 days of complete chaos where the country and the world didn't know who the next president
00:25:46.740
And it's going to be I think this year justices.
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And if they're eight, if the court is divided four, four, they don't have the authority to
00:26:01.140
So what makes it really crazy is is in Florida, you just had one jurisdiction where it was being
00:26:09.280
Let's say Biden, if he were to lose, I think Biden could file lawsuits in three or four or
00:26:15.240
And so you could have, say, the Ninth Circuit deciding a case out of Arizona and the 11th
00:26:23.720
Now, normally, if federal courts of appeals conflict, you go to the Supreme Court to resolve it.
00:26:29.820
If the Supreme Court were divided four, four, nobody knows what would happen.
00:26:33.820
You just have conflicting decisions and a constitutional crisis.
00:26:37.760
And Joe Biden would start appointing three extra judges from from his home in Delaware.
00:26:42.700
It's gotten so crazy, Senator, with with the the it's going to be nuts either way.
00:26:48.200
If Trump challenges to if he loses either way, we're headed for a massive, massive legal
00:26:54.660
And the and an important point, Megan, on the recusal.
00:26:57.920
So so I had a number of reporters asked me on the recusal and I asked them, I said, well,
00:27:02.680
do you think that that Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor should recuse themselves because they
00:27:09.100
were appointed in the Obama Biden administration?
00:27:11.060
And the answer, by the way, is, of course not, that that every justice was appointed by a
00:27:16.820
And justices routinely have to rule on cases that involve the president administration that
00:27:24.980
And and it is important to underscore, look, I don't want to see any justice confirmed because
00:27:31.340
that justice would rule for whatever candidate I happen to support.
00:27:37.760
What I want to see is a justice that will ensure that the law is followed, that if there's
00:27:41.740
litigation and uncertainty, we should follow federal law and follow the Constitution.
00:27:46.260
And that means whoever actually won the election should should be the winner.
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And we should have a functioning Supreme Court that can ensure we're following the law and
00:27:58.000
and have have a clear, clear forum to resolve those disputes.
00:28:04.540
So not long ago, my husband, Doug, and I were visiting his mom and she had boxes and boxes of
00:28:10.740
slides of their family vacations when they were growing up.
00:28:16.300
So we really wanted to see some of these things and just I would like to see Doug when he was
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But they're in slides and we don't have a slide projector because we are modern day Americans.
00:28:29.200
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00:28:56.600
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00:28:59.620
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00:29:06.280
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00:30:06.580
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00:31:06.980
Do you think that the threat that Joe Biden would not answer, whether he's prepared to
00:31:12.800
pack the court with additional justices, which, you know, they think would be more even if he wins,
00:31:19.320
if there is a Justice Coney Barrett sitting there, do you think they mean it?
00:31:23.260
I mean, doing it would be, it would devastate the court.
00:31:37.860
I think the anger on the far left is, it's not good for the country.
00:31:47.100
The rage and division we see, I worry about the country for it.
00:31:51.600
But I think if Biden wins and the Democrats take the Senate, I think within the first couple
00:32:04.060
What that means, if you end the filibuster, it means that the minority in the Senate can
00:32:09.480
no longer stop whatever agenda they try to force through.
00:32:13.440
I think one of the first things they would do after ending the filibuster is add two new
00:32:20.420
states to the United States, add the District of Columbia and add Puerto Rico.
00:32:24.860
And the reason, and they've been very open about this, the reason is crassly political,
00:32:29.840
which is that they believe those, those jurisdictions would elect four new Democratic senators.
00:32:36.380
So if we started January with 50 Democratic senators, we could end the year with 54.
00:32:43.460
And, and then I believe that they would move to pack the court.
00:32:47.660
And I think they would probably have the votes.
00:32:51.880
This week, Joe Manchin said he wouldn't, wouldn't do it.
00:32:55.380
And Dianne Feinstein has suggested she might not, although frankly, I'm skeptical if they
00:33:01.820
have the majority and push came to shove, I'm skeptical that any of the Democrats would,
00:33:07.760
They are, they're much better at party discipline, frankly, than Republicans are.
00:33:13.760
And I think the threat to pack the court is very real.
00:33:17.680
And, and I agree with you that it would deeply politicize the court and it would set the stage
00:33:26.640
If they increase it to 11, we'd probably increase it to 13.
00:33:30.460
I mean, it turns the court, it really undermines the independence of the judiciary.
00:33:36.880
I think it'd be a terrible thing for the court.
00:33:38.460
That's something Ruth Bader Ginsburg herself said we should not do, that that is not the
00:33:42.920
solution as much, as many games as both sides have played when it comes to nominating lower
00:33:52.720
I know you have a whole explanation as to why you don't think it's hypocritical for the
00:34:00.380
I do think the Republicans have reversed themselves from four years ago, but putting that to the
00:34:10.820
How bad does the fight get in, in your book, uh, one vote away, uh, you've got stories about
00:34:16.660
your time clerking as a Supreme court clerk for then chief justice Rehnquist, but I didn't
00:34:22.460
know that you, you could have been on the short list.
00:34:26.140
Something was leaked about this, but that you were essentially offered a position on the short
00:34:33.520
Uh, it is so, so each of the three vacancies that occurred, I had very serious conversations
00:34:45.200
Uh, and, and it's, it started in November, 2016, right, right after the, of the election,
00:34:50.560
uh, where I, I flew to New York and went to Trump tower and spent about four and a half
00:34:57.860
Um, and, and this was the Scalia vacancy that, that ultimately Neil Gorsuch, uh, filled and
00:35:04.200
Trump at the time, he leaned in pretty hard and, and talked, talked to me quite seriously
00:35:12.720
Uh, and I told him then I, I said, I didn't want it, that I don't want to be a judge and
00:35:18.320
Um, and, and the reason that surprises a lot of people, a lot of people find that a, a
00:35:26.360
Especially just given your background and, you know, the amount of arguments you've had
00:35:30.120
before the Supreme court, your time as a solicitor general of the state of Texas, U S
00:35:35.180
I mean, yeah, you would think you'd, you'd want it cause it's, it's so prestigious.
00:35:39.580
Well, and I revere the court, but a, a principal judge stays out of political and policy fights.
00:35:52.320
And I, and I think the right place to do that is the political world.
00:35:57.280
And, and so, but I also write in the book that, that after that conversation with Trump,
00:36:02.220
I went back home and, and the decision really weighed on me.
00:36:06.400
I mean, it, it's justice Scalia is, is one of my all time heroes.
00:36:10.520
I knew the justice personally and, and, and he's, he was giant, uh, on the court and to
00:36:21.580
And, and a lot of my close friends thought I was crazy because as I was wrestling with
00:36:28.100
this before Trump had made the decision, it was, I don't want to overstate it.
00:36:31.920
Trump didn't offer me the position, but it was clearly a, a real and live possibility.
00:36:42.460
I had my, my pastor came over one Sunday afternoon and, and we spent the afternoon talking
00:36:49.100
And he had an interesting analogy that he drew.
00:36:52.820
He said he understood why I, I didn't want to do it.
00:36:58.240
If someone offered him to be the leading theologian in the world and to be this, you know, deeply
00:37:05.020
respected academic theologian where he could have an impact on, on millions, but he'd have
00:37:11.320
He'd have to give up working with the members of the church and counseling them and being
00:37:16.180
I, I wouldn't do that even though it would be very impactful.
00:37:20.280
It's not, it's not how I want to spend my life.
00:37:28.280
It could be that, you know, someday we could wind up with a president Cruz, which would,
00:37:32.520
which would be, you know, arguably more powerful.
00:37:36.680
I'll tell you one thing, just as an aside, I too loved Justice Scalia.
00:37:40.400
My, my judicial outlook is definitely more along the Scalia originalist line.
00:37:47.240
But I love and respect, respected Ruth Bader Ginsburg too.
00:37:50.600
I really, I didn't have the same philosophy as she did, but I just thought she was a great
00:37:55.500
And he's going to Harvard as one of only nine women and all the shit she took.
00:38:01.800
By the way, I love that she fell asleep on you.
00:38:04.260
I love that she fell asleep on you during one of your Supreme Court arguments.
00:38:07.760
It was, so that was actually the Texas redistricting argument.
00:38:13.460
I watched this as a reporter and as a very young reporter for Fox.
00:38:17.160
It was, so it was an afternoon argument, which is unusual.
00:38:22.120
So it was at one o'clock instead of in the morning when they usually are.
00:38:25.440
And it was a two hour argument instead of a one hour argument.
00:38:28.580
And, and I think it's 2005, if I remember right.
00:38:32.820
And she put her head down on the bench and, and fell asleep for about 20 minutes.
00:38:38.820
And, and, and she had been, I think she had been under the weather and, and, and so it
00:38:44.960
Well, also you might've been a little boring that day.
00:38:46.520
You might, it's possible that redistricting is not the sexiest subject.
00:38:50.160
I saw her do it many times and, and I'll never forget.
00:38:52.260
She was sitting next to Alito and, uh, he had just made it onto the bench and she fell
00:38:56.520
asleep and Alito was up there looking around, like, what's the protocol for this?
00:39:10.580
And I went to Rehnquist's funeral just to cover it as a reporter.
00:39:16.140
And I, I saw Scalia on the steps of the church afterward.
00:39:19.820
And he came right over to me and I'd been at Fox for a few years and I'd been covering
00:39:23.560
the Supreme court and, uh, he, he beelined over to me and I was like, oh my God, this
00:39:28.780
He's going to say he, he respects me and I'm a fair and balanced reporter and he appreciates
00:39:34.780
And sure enough, he walks up to me and he says, miss, would you mind taking a picture
00:39:45.620
He was, uh, Scalia was just a spectacular intellect and, and, and, and Rehnquist, I mean, you know,
00:39:58.420
he was my boss and he was utterly brilliant, totally different temperament than Scalia.
00:40:05.580
I mean, Scalia, as you know, was this loud, voluble, brilliant Italian.
00:40:11.300
I mean, he was, uh, um, I remember one time up at, at, at Harvard, he was talking at the
00:40:17.100
law school and a couple hundred people there and one of several of the students were raising
00:40:21.860
their hands for a question and, and he points at them and they're like, me, me, me.
00:40:31.580
I know he was so colorful, but I appreciate your stories about Rehnquist in the book too,
00:40:35.520
because first of all, I never knew that chief justice Rehnquist and Sandra Day O'Connor
00:40:46.880
Can we address the, how you watch pornography with the two Supreme court justices?
00:40:55.620
Um, and, and it was the first of the internet porn cases to make it to the Supreme court.
00:41:01.960
Um, and the justices, so I was a law clerk for Rehnquist and, and, you know, the justices
00:41:08.740
at the time didn't really know what the internet was.
00:41:11.040
I mean, this was right at the dawn of the internet.
00:41:13.460
And so the court librarians decided to, to do basically a training session for the justices
00:41:22.500
And so, and they ended up pairing the justices together, doing two chambers at a time.
00:41:26.880
So we were in this little room and, and they, they paired, this was just coincidence, but
00:41:34.980
So it was Rehnquist and O'Connor, uh, the chief had three clerks, O'Connor had four clerks.
00:41:40.140
So it was the seven clerks and the two justices in this little darkened room with the librarian
00:41:46.740
And I still remember she typed in cantaloupe misspelled with the search filter off.
00:41:53.860
And, and at the time, if you did that, you came back up with graphic hardcore porn.
00:42:00.720
And, and I, I still remember, I mean, look, it's awkward to be in a room with Sandra Day
00:42:11.940
And she just kind of under her breath, she went, oh my, and it was, and I'm just like
00:42:21.780
And, and one of the, as awkward as it was for all of the law clerks, it must have been
00:42:28.740
awkward for Rehnquist and O'Connor because it, as you just mentioned, they were classmates
00:42:32.800
in law school at Stanford, uh, and they dated and, and actually he, he, uh, asked her hand
00:42:41.540
Uh, well, it would have been really awkward if he had said, could you just, just see it
00:42:48.740
Well, it, it, it was, uh, well, and they used to have, that actually used to be a routine
00:42:55.820
So in the seventies and eighties, the test for obscenity, the court would regularly adjudicate
00:43:05.920
And so they would have, uh, viewings in the basement of the court where they'd play, you
00:43:11.440
know, I don't know if they played deep throat or, but you know, they'd have whatever the
00:43:15.000
case, the movie was that, that they were adjudicating and, and Potter Stewart, a former
00:43:20.120
justice had a, a famous test for obscenity, which is, um, I know, I know it when I see it.
00:43:26.860
I see a hundred percent a man came up with this.
00:43:28.740
There's zero chance a female judge said, what we're going to do is watch the, the movie
00:43:33.520
and then there's just no way a woman settled on that.
00:43:38.180
And I'm glad the court is out of that business now, but, but I, I think it's Woodward in,
00:43:42.940
in the brethren tell stories of, um, I think it was Thurgood Marshall clerks down watching
00:43:49.140
the movie who would, who would kind of heckle and be like, I know it.
00:43:55.900
And, and I'm very glad the court is no longer, I just need to watch it for another, another
00:44:02.640
So now they don't do that anymore, which is a good thing.
00:44:05.680
You, uh, you know, obviously had a lot of success in the judicial world, in the legal
00:44:11.580
You, um, go on to run for Senator and win and become one of the most prominent senators
00:44:19.120
And then you decide to throw your hat in, uh, in the presidential race and did really well
00:44:24.940
I mean, it was just down to you and Trump and it, uh, I followed you a lot on the campaign
00:44:30.740
I was at a lot of your rallies and there was tremendous love for you amongst the voters.
00:44:36.760
Uh, you just happened to be going up against a very unusual, extremely dynamic, unlike anything
00:44:42.020
we've ever seen before candidate on the other side.
00:44:44.300
But I, I wonder as a man, how hard it was when you finally had to admit that it was over.
00:44:56.060
Um, it was one of the hardest times in my life.
00:44:59.520
Now I look, I loved every second of the campaign trail.
00:45:03.260
I mean, I had, it's the most fun I've ever had.
00:45:10.300
We ended up winning 12 states at the end of the day, had, had about 8 million votes cast
00:45:21.660
Um, we had, we raised $92 million, which is the most money any Republican has ever raised.
00:45:28.700
Uh, in the history of primaries, we raised more than George W. Bush or John McCain or Mitt
00:45:32.880
Romney, uh, it was 1.8 million contributions that, that, that, and it was really, it was
00:45:40.720
And, and at the end of the day, Trump, Trump won and, and he is a, uh, a phenom.
00:45:46.920
Um, and, and in particular, he, he ended up receiving over $3 billion of, of, of free media
00:45:56.880
Uh, and so, you know, one story I, I tell in the book is, is on the night that, that,
00:46:05.100
that we suspended the campaign, it was after the Indiana primary where the numbers were
00:46:12.120
And, uh, and so I, I went out that night and gave a speech and announced that, that we
00:46:20.520
And, and, and I still remember there was a woman in, in, in the crowd who, who, who let
00:46:29.420
I mean, I mean, she just, she, and it, it pierced me and, and I barely could make it through
00:46:37.820
And, and there were several hundred people there who were volunteers, who many of them
00:46:42.360
had traveled to Iowa, traveled to South Carolina.
00:46:46.640
And, uh, we set up, we had dorm rooms where people would come and camp and they'd go knock
00:46:52.400
And I wanted to, to stay and personally thank every one of them and hug them.
00:47:01.040
I, I, I, and so I, I went backstage because I, tears were running down my face and, and
00:47:08.880
And, and as I write in the book, I said, look, I I'll be damned if I was gonna on the way out
00:47:14.580
of the race, let the press turn lion Ted into crying Ted.
00:47:18.300
I just was not going to cry in front of the TV camera.
00:47:23.000
Um, good for you, but Heidi, it's not a good group of people.
00:47:27.880
Uh, it, uh, it, it, it was not going to be an image that I was going to give them, but
00:47:33.640
Heidi stayed out with, with everyone there for, I think over an hour.
00:47:38.340
Just, she had the strength to thank everyone just to, to hug them.
00:47:46.680
I wished I could, I still feel guilty that I didn't stay out with them.
00:47:51.740
And it's good to hear that you have the same reaction most humans have, which is you can
00:47:57.160
But then as soon as you see somebody else is either feeling sorry for you or upset about
00:48:03.060
bad news you've just gotten, that's what pushes you over the edge.
00:48:06.560
Like you can hold it together until you see the sympathy or pain in someone else's eyes.
00:48:11.200
And then you gotta go knowing Heidi, by the way, I'm not surprised by the way, Heidi
00:48:18.100
She, she's, I think it's fair to say she's the breadwinner in the family.
00:48:21.200
She's got a very powerful job in finance and, um, and was a lawyer and the whole bit.
00:48:26.020
And yet still is soft when the moment calls for it, which by the way is very possible.
00:48:31.340
Um, I want to ask you, and she's still my best friend.
00:48:34.720
I mean, I mean, it's a, it is a neat, we're coming up, uh, may will be our 20th anniversary
00:48:39.920
and, and it's, you know, we've, in fact, you know, we talk with our girls about, you know,
00:48:45.600
in marriage, my, my advice to our daughters is marry your best friend.
00:48:48.840
Like, like, like that, everything else is transient, you know, life, there are high points
00:48:54.800
And, and if you're on a journey with someone who, who you are partners, that that's, that's
00:49:01.420
And I'm, I'm incredibly blessed in that regard.
00:49:05.440
My advice to my children is good little boys and girls never leave their mommy.
00:49:17.080
And it's, it's, uh, I'm quite frightened for the teenage years.
00:49:22.380
You are, you think running for president was hard.
00:49:24.540
You know, walking around New York city these days, it doesn't feel that safe.
00:49:30.620
Uh, a lot has happened here, especially where I am on the upper West side.
00:49:34.800
You know, I, I would not let my kids walk the dog by themselves at seven 30 in the evening.
00:49:42.840
The character of the neighborhood is changing and the threat level is very clearly increasing.
00:49:48.160
And there have been shooting deaths in New York city.
00:49:53.700
And I know New York is not the only place where that's true.
00:50:00.780
Uh, so if you want to carry a gun, forget about it, but they do allow pepper spray in
00:50:06.200
And there is a company called Palm industries that is making sort of the next gen of pepper
00:50:12.180
It's like good looking to hold the container and it works well.
00:50:16.620
So it's, it's kind of like the apple I'd say of Palm of, of, uh, pepper sprays.
00:50:21.480
It's got this intuitive, easy to use discreet look to it.
00:50:28.640
They've leveraged decades worth of experience producing these aerosol products.
00:50:31.940
So they know how to create the most up-to-date, simple, safe, powerful self-defense products.
00:50:41.160
You don't, when you need your pepper spray, you need it right away.
00:50:43.680
You don't want to have to spend 40 minutes figuring it out.
00:50:46.380
Um, apparently all these elite trainers around the company love it.
00:50:49.240
They, they, they call it the go-to non-lethal sense, a self-defense product.
00:50:53.680
And, uh, they use the strongest and safest formulation legal to carry in all 50 States.
00:50:59.260
So if you're going to go the pepper spray route, you can't do better than this, no harmful
00:51:04.620
It's got fast acting, powerful bursts of spray.
00:51:08.320
Uh, it goes a maximum distance of up to 12 feet and 12 seconds of continuous spray.
00:51:17.780
Um, it's got a practical carry size, most compact half an ounce personal carrying unit
00:51:22.140
available, and you can get it in three different forms.
00:51:25.220
Usually the guys like that, cause you can clip it in your pockets of your pants.
00:51:29.540
You can get it in a key, which is like a key ring.
00:51:31.640
So ladies, you know how it is always scary when you're coming home to your house by yourself,
00:51:37.600
And then there's a snap, which you can sort of attach to a ring or a lanyard, which is
00:51:43.060
Like, don't, don't even think about messing with me.
00:51:49.660
Anyway, it comes in 30 different design color combinations and you can get it again.
00:51:53.980
It's called Palm Pepper Spray at palmpepperspray.com.
00:52:00.960
Uh, and it's selected gun shops or pharmacies or retail stores throughout the country.
00:52:07.180
So we're starting a new feature for you today on the Megyn Kelly show called Sound Up.
00:52:12.380
It's where we take a sound bite, making the rounds in the news and weigh in with our thoughts.
00:52:18.060
Steve Krakauer, my executive producer, who also writes and produces Fourth Watch, which
00:52:23.120
is an awesome newsletter, which you guys should check out.
00:52:25.200
It's totally fair and balanced and I'm entertained by it all the time.
00:52:31.780
Yeah, we've got actually, yeah, two sound bites that are very related.
00:52:34.620
They're both about our good friend, Governor Andrew Cuomo from New York.
00:52:37.440
So the first one, he will just play it first and let you react.
00:52:41.140
I put my head on the pillow at night saying I saved lives.
00:52:51.060
Honestly, like if this guy, I've never seen such a juxtaposition between one's public image
00:52:59.900
I too was swept up by the Cuomo smoothness at the beginning of the coronavirus quarantine.
00:53:06.560
You know, I felt like the guy was giving it to me straight.
00:53:14.260
Boy, oh boy, did that change once the true data started coming in on the deaths in New
00:53:20.260
And the thing that he has not taken responsibility for is the thing my pal Janice Dean has been
00:53:28.780
jumping up and down trying to call attention to, which is the deaths in the New York nursing
00:53:34.700
Thanks to his order, his order, six thousand, six thousand plus of covid positive patients
00:53:45.580
Since his order in that was in place for forty six days and people died.
00:54:04.460
I mean, like I could go down the list, but for him to then try to turn it into I, I put
00:54:09.640
my head on the pillow at night knowing I saved lives.
00:54:12.860
You know, tell it to the families of the people who died unnecessarily in the New York state
00:54:21.380
Yeah, that was from a radio interview yesterday.
00:54:34.740
Does it trouble you at all that New York and New Jersey had the highest death rates in the
00:54:39.920
And to watch guys like you stand by and stroke your beard like a wise man instead of telling the
00:54:45.020
president to get on it when you have power is a problem.
00:54:51.380
Why don't you talk to the president the way you talk to my brother, Ted?
00:55:08.900
You know, the guy now who you won't say anything about.
00:55:13.300
You actually wonder why you don't have a lot of Republicans that want to come on your
00:55:22.000
And by more than any other show on CNN, Chris Cuomo means I've just had this one.
00:55:27.440
I have this one who appeared on my show tonight.
00:55:34.200
Speaking of children, I saw parts of your interview last night with Chris Cuomo.
00:55:48.600
I know you're you're selling a book, but still, I don't know who in his audience is going to
00:55:55.880
And he was just as disrespectful to you as I'm sure your team predicted.
00:56:03.480
He was he was like he was worse than Trump was at the at the debate with interruptions
00:56:09.120
and putting you down and picking a fight and then claiming the moral high ground.
00:56:17.320
I mean, the whole interview with with Cuomo was I mean, it was a mud fest and he was attacking
00:56:22.560
And actually, I mentioned during the interview, he was behaving like the debaters in Tuesday's
00:56:27.640
debate and and and and not wanting to have a an actual conversation and a civil conversation.
00:56:35.060
And I think it's somewhat indicative of the sort of angry, screaming time we find ourselves in.
00:56:48.240
The the book One Vote Away, I think addresses a lot of important issues.
00:56:54.360
And, you know, I made the case on that show also that, listen, I recognize that that a lot
00:57:00.000
of your viewers may come from a different spot politically than I am.
00:57:03.540
But if you want to understand why so many millions of people are deeply concerned about the Supreme
00:57:09.640
Court or deeply concerned and want to protect free speech and religious liberty in the Second
00:57:13.660
Amendment, I encourage you to read the book because it gives you the inside story of what's
00:57:18.280
going on and it may help you get a perspective on on a very large chunk of of the country.
00:57:27.220
And I don't know if that message resonated with anyone or not, but I went on there and look,
00:57:33.640
I didn't think he would be as personal and nasty as he was.
00:57:41.520
You know, I mean, I've done done lots of shows.
00:57:47.800
You know, I mean, I I will will do, you know, I did Jake Tapper just recently to Chuck Todd
00:57:54.960
Jake Tapper would never ask a question like that.
00:57:58.860
And and I've known Jake since he was a young reporter at Slate covering the George W.
00:58:14.300
Um, you know, there is an interesting reaction.
00:58:22.100
You know, I mean, I read a lot of the terrible things people say on Twitter, but the first
00:58:26.280
place lefties go is Trump insulted your wife and your dad.
00:58:30.940
Trump insulted like it's the number one attack.
00:58:32.780
And and they, you know, look, Cuomo was reveling and repeating it over and over again and kind
00:58:37.760
of it's sort of an excuse to stick the knife in.
00:58:45.740
Trump said things I didn't like and I and I popped back hard and we had a hell of a fight.
00:58:54.320
And by the way, Heidi and my dad have put it beyond them, too.
00:58:58.680
And and, you know, the the view of some on the left is given that fight that I don't
00:59:04.440
know, I guess I should have, what, taken my marbles and gone home and said, I'm not going
00:59:08.020
to work with the president and I'm not going to fight for good Supreme Court justices and
00:59:11.920
I'm not going to fight for tax cuts or jobs that that that to me doesn't make any sense.
00:59:17.340
I've got a job to do, so I'm going to work with a man.
00:59:19.720
Well, I mean, they were quick to overlook it when Kamala Harris became the vice presidential
00:59:23.880
nominee of a man she said was a racist and may have committed a sexual assault.
00:59:28.820
I mean, politics is ugly and it's true on both sides that mean things get said during
00:59:35.100
And there are many reasons why you might be willing to overlook it when time goes on.
00:59:41.020
But I have to ask you what you think is going to happen on November 3rd.
00:59:51.220
I don't recall ever seeing an election that is this volatile.
00:59:55.380
I think it depends what happens over the next month.
00:59:57.640
I think the biggest thing it depends on is is if people are going back to work, if people
01:00:04.140
are feeling optimistic about the future, if if people are hopeful, I think it could be
01:00:12.240
I think we could grow our majority in the Senate.
01:00:14.720
I think Republicans could even take the House back.
01:00:16.540
On the flip side, if we have more shutdowns, if more people are out of work, if people are
01:00:22.840
home and broke and unemployed and pissed off, I think it could be a devastating election where
01:00:31.780
And and I I think a Biden Pelosi Schumer federal government would do more damage than Obama did
01:00:42.140
And and so I've I've never seen an election that has such wildly disparate outcomes that
01:00:52.140
It's one of the reasons I wrote this book, One Vote Away, why I wrote it this summer is
01:00:57.100
because in thinking about the stakes, I think preserving the Bill of Rights and our constitutional
01:01:04.080
liberties, preserving free speech, preserving religious liberty, preserving the Second Amendment
01:01:10.960
I actually think it's the most important issue in the race.
01:01:12.960
And so I wrote the book to coincide with the election because I hope people read it.
01:01:19.460
I hope someone reads it and says, you know what, even if I may not personally care for
01:01:24.340
Donald Trump and I understand why people have that reaction, I care about free speech.
01:01:31.260
I don't want to see a Supreme Court that undermines my rights.
01:01:35.520
And I hope that that helps produce a good election outcome and helps people also understand
01:01:40.920
the stakes in in in the epic gladiatorial battle we have right now with with Judge Barrett.
01:01:49.460
Any chance we're going to see you on the presidential ticket or vying to get on it in 2024?
01:01:56.800
Look, I've made no secret about that, that I hope to run again.
01:02:07.140
But but whether he is or not, these battles aren't going away.
01:02:14.880
You know, I also I think we need to do much more those on the right conservatives to win
01:02:22.560
I think we spend too much time just talking to preaching to the choir, talking to the people
01:02:28.060
watching Fox News each night and not talking to young people and Hispanics and African-Americans
01:02:36.560
And and and so the book is one step trying to do that.
01:02:40.920
You know, I I launched a podcast earlier this year, Verdict with Ted Cruz.
01:02:45.440
It ended up becoming the number one ranked podcast in the world.
01:02:51.960
What's interesting is the people who listen to it.
01:02:54.600
We've had over 15 million downloads and the people who listen to it are a very different
01:02:59.500
demographic than the folks Republicans generally talk to.
01:03:04.040
And so I'm well, the audience is very committed, tends to be older and the podcast audience tends
01:03:09.860
And look, you're only 49 years old, which I think I can speak to is very, very young.
01:03:17.740
So you got plenty of runway ahead of you and it's going to be fun to watch you.
01:03:24.980
Well, thanks for having me and congrats again on the podcast.
01:03:29.820
Our thanks to Senator Ted Cruz and our thanks to you for listening.
01:03:37.620
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