The Megyn Kelly Show - Sexual Harassment Allegation Against Chris Cuomo, and a Woke Push To Eliminate Biological Sex, with Shelley Ross and Katie Herzog

00:00:00.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:12.600 Hey, everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We have a big show for you

00:00:16.920 today. Just a bit later, we're going to be joined by Katie Herzog. She's back with us to talk about

00:00:21.400 some of her latest reporting on how woke ideology is spreading in the medical industry amongst MDs.

00:00:28.380 That's not good. But joining me first for her first exclusive interview is Shelly Ross.

00:00:34.460 She's a former executive producer at ABC News and CBS News who has publicly accused anchor Chris

00:00:40.940 Cuomo of CNN of sexually harassing her during both of their time at ABC News. Shelly, great to have

00:00:48.160 you here. Thank you for being here. Thank you. So I thought it was fascinating that you came out with

00:00:53.940 this and in a New York Times op-ed and just were given the chance to tell your story. And I did

00:00:59.140 wonder whether the New York Times was the first one you went to or whether anybody else had passed on

00:01:04.400 the opportunity to tell this story. Can I start with that? Sure. I actually earlier, a year before,

00:01:13.460 thought, let me see what this looks like. And there was one of the magazines had a first person story

00:01:23.760 that was very, very moving. And I contacted them and was in just a half a discussion.

00:01:34.040 And then came all of the harassment against Asians. And I thought, this is not a time to talk about

00:01:44.380 sexual harassment in the workplace. This is a time to talk about harassment of Asian people because of

00:01:53.420 the pandemic. And so it was a very brief, and I said, I'm going to end this dialogue. I'm going to

00:02:05.180 withdraw everything because I think there's a more important dialogue to have. And that was just a

00:02:14.440 very quick toe in the water, nothing. It was just sort of a, what do you think?

00:02:22.400 So how long were you his EP at ABC News? Well, I was first his, he was a sort of a floating network

00:02:34.500 correspondent. And so I was EP at Good Morning America for five and a half years. And for,

00:02:46.620 he came to ABC, I don't know what date, but somewhere in that timeframe. So he was, I put him on the air

00:02:58.220 and assigned him stories out of a pool of car correspondence. And he was a legal correspondent.

00:03:05.820 So I had him, for instance, covering the Martha Stewart trial, if that gives you a timeframe.

00:03:11.280 Mm-hmm.

00:03:13.060 And he, you know, he was on Good Morning America quite a bit. And then in 2004, I took over

00:03:28.440 Primetime Live. And when I took over Primetime Live, they had gone to, it had gone through a lot of

00:03:38.240 ups and downs. It had been merged with 2020 and then unmerged with 2020. And it was, you know,

00:03:49.880 magazine shows were, were sort of shrinking and trying to redefine themselves. And I came into

00:03:57.480 Primetime Live and there were four anchors, Diane Sawyer, Cynthia McFadden, John Quinones, and Chris Cuomo.

00:04:08.240 Mm-hmm. So he was one of your anchors and you were his executive producer for how long?

00:04:16.040 A couple of years?

00:04:17.500 No, it was about less, a little less than a year.

00:04:20.640 Okay. And how did you, what was his character like prior to the incident that we're going to

00:04:25.760 get into? What did, how did you, you know, know him? What did you think of him?

00:04:29.780 Well, you know, he was a former Fox guy. He was a Roger Ailes discovery, interestingly enough.

00:04:41.940 Um, and he came to ABC and he was just had a big personality. Um, he was, you know, uh, attractive

00:04:54.000 looking on air, but he was, you know, had the personality that you've seen, we've seen of a frat

00:05:02.920 boy. He was a guy's guy, uh, you know, called people buddy and, and, uh, and he, he was, uh, very,

00:05:14.900 he was younger and arrogant. He knew it all and didn't want anybody. Uh, he didn't want anybody's

00:05:25.960 advice. He didn't want anybody's direction. And he certainly didn't want anyone to touch his,

00:05:34.480 the first draft of his script.

00:05:36.120 Right. And when you're at network television, they do. I mean, that's, it's not like cable at

00:05:42.000 all. Having worked in both industries, I can say the executive producers, the producers are much

00:05:47.140 more involved in the final product at the broadcast level than on cable. And I'm not surprised to learn

00:05:52.120 that, uh, even in the broadcast world, Mr. Chris Cuomo didn't, didn't think anybody should be touching

00:05:57.760 his work. Um, even somebody who is a seasoned executive producer like you, there's a reason you ran

00:06:03.800 GMA for almost six years. Okay. So that was the, I wasn't, I was at ABC news for 17 years. Yeah. So,

00:06:13.340 and you know, I, uh, I came up the ladder on merit on breaking a lot of stories, winning a lot of awards.

00:06:24.440 So I was respected and, uh, it was interesting to have somebody show disrespect.

00:06:32.460 So that's, and that, and that is a form of disrespect early on, but then you were no longer

00:06:39.520 his executive producer and take us to the night that you were at this bar on the Upper West side.

00:06:45.620 What were you all going there for? Um, there was a going away party. I had moved on to the entertainment

00:06:54.400 side of ABC and I had just finished producing. I don't know if you remember David Blaine's, uh,

00:07:04.720 Lincoln center to our live special where he lived in a bubble for a week and he went for the breath hold,

00:07:13.380 uh, world record. And I had produced that special, but someone from ABC was leaving primetime live

00:07:23.380 and had invited me to the going away party. Now I made it a habit not to go. I rarely,

00:07:32.800 I did anything more than drop in to a going away party. I always felt that people's arrivals

00:07:42.160 should be celebrated and not, you know, but I would always be up for a respectful toast.

00:07:51.100 I'd be there for the toast and wish them luck in the next chapter and leave. You know, I had no desire

00:08:00.360 to, you know, spend a night drinking with people who worked for me. I was the boss. I felt that was

00:08:07.760 not appropriate. So, but I was invited and, um, I was honored to be invited because I wasn't there

00:08:17.760 anymore. And I thought I would just drop in, have a quick toast, meet my husband there because we were

00:08:27.680 driving back to Connecticut, um, from Manhattan together. So I thought we'd meet there. He usually

00:08:37.520 would just pick me up, you know, outside the building, but I thought let's meet here and then

00:08:43.840 we can go together, go home. Okay. So you go into the bar and Chris Cuomo sees you and what happens?

00:08:52.880 He walked right into the bar, walked right over to me, um, gave me a bear hug, slipped one hand down

00:09:04.940 my body to my buttocks and squeezed really hard on my cheek while saying, I can do this to you now that

00:09:18.620 you're no longer my boss. And I pushed him away and said, no, you can't. And when, as I pushed him away

00:09:29.540 and stepped back, it revealed that my husband was sitting on a very low ottoman, which you couldn't

00:09:39.400 see him. You know, while I was talking to people I worked with, he was just sitting there drinking

00:09:44.340 a diet Coke, you know, waiting for the, to leave. He didn't know anybody. And, um,

00:09:51.320 so he saw everything. It was right in front of him. Maybe I love eye level at this moment. Here's

00:10:02.120 this guy who's, you know, an anchor, a talent at the, at the network. You're in a very well-respected

00:10:09.220 position there. You've been there almost 20 years. And what goes through your head as this guy has the

00:10:15.260 nerve to squeeze your ass? It was belittling. It was clearly a power trip. It, it, to make me feel,

00:10:28.340 you know, you're no longer my boss. I can do anything I want with you. You know, he knew he,

00:10:37.860 something in his head said he couldn't do that when I was his boss. Maybe he thought he would get,

00:10:45.980 you know, I would fire him or something. Uh, but it was meant to diminish, uh, Chris Cuomo's over six

00:10:57.380 feet tall. I'm five, two, I'm under a hundred pounds. And it, it was, uh, it,

00:11:07.860 it was overpowering and I certainly didn't like it.

00:11:13.460 To me, I feel like anyone who is that brazen with a female work colleague, especially one who

00:11:20.480 had just been above them on the power totem pole, uh, must've done it before. I just, that doesn't

00:11:27.360 sound like somebody who's experimenting with that kind of behavior for the first time. What do you

00:11:32.620 think? I really don't know. I didn't discuss it as you know, until now. So it's not like I was,

00:11:43.520 um, you know, talking to everybody at work and that it was like the buzz. Then I just left, went home

00:11:53.140 and, uh, I didn't report it. Did you talk to anybody about it there? Did you, you know,

00:12:00.380 do you go to like a colleague and say, Holy cow? I mentioned it to, you know, to, um,

00:12:08.560 a close colleague at, you know, I had moved on and it was a prime time, but I called a somebody that I

00:12:16.540 had remained close to at good morning, America, one of the senior producers and said, you know,

00:12:22.900 because people who knew that, and I, that he was just more about this arrogant frat boy personality.

00:12:32.200 And I said, you won't believe what happened. And it's not. So I, I talked to a friend at the time

00:12:39.820 and, uh, and just really talked to my husband about it. And my husband has always said, and it's

00:12:49.360 interesting. I heard from another, you know, when I, when the editorial was published, I heard from

00:12:58.340 Brian Rooney, who was an ABC correspondent. And he said to me, he was the first person who called

00:13:06.300 early in the morning and said, Shelley, I think there are two kinds of men in the workplace.

00:13:13.420 One, the, who behaves like Chris Cuomo and the other has no, cannot fathom ever behaving like that.

00:13:25.400 Yeah. He said, I just, I can't imagine, you know, manhandling, uh, one of my female colleagues,

00:13:36.960 you know, and my husband always said that, that he would like read about sexual harassment

00:13:42.320 and he was, you know, a boss who hired lots of women and lots of women, vice presidents.

00:13:49.100 He just could never believe either. Like, uh, what am I the nerd? I mean, I don't get it. I don't get

00:13:57.540 how people gentlemen, he's a normal man, a normal man doesn't behave like this at the office. My husband

00:14:05.300 too, is the CEO of a company for a long time would never dream of behaving this way. I think about my

00:14:11.400 pal Janice Dean married to a firefighter, you know, he's around a lot of guys with a lot of

00:14:16.260 testosterone. Never, never that most men do not behave like this, but Chris Cuomo. And as we now

00:14:26.100 know, his brother, Andrew seem to behave differently and, and look at women differently. And your op-ed was

00:14:33.720 very well-timed because not only did Chris defend his brother, Andrew, we now know, but was actively

00:14:40.620 involved in trying to diminish the women who accused him. And people said, ah, it's his

00:14:45.520 brother. And I said, no, you advise your brother as a brother. You call him after hours and say,

00:14:50.580 brother, you know, I'm here for you. You know, look, come over, let's have a beer. You don't

00:14:54.260 actively enjoy, uh, join the strategy sessions, trying to tear down the women as just cancel

00:14:59.800 culture warriors. And he's been given a total passport by CNN. Well, that was the reason it

00:15:06.820 wasn't the timing. That's the timing I selected. You know, I got a lot of like pushback on social

00:15:14.640 media. Like, why did I wait 16 years? Well, I, I didn't wait 16 years, you know, I wasn't lying

00:15:25.080 in wait. I just had something to say now. Um, and what I had to say after 40 years of experiencing

00:15:38.580 and advocating against harassment in the workplace, I, I saw a moment where people were being held

00:15:49.660 accountable as the enablers. I wrote about Chris Cuomo in this editorial, not just to say he was my

00:16:00.120 sexual harasser. I wrote about him really because he was Andrew Cuomo's enabler and Andrew Cuomo,

00:16:12.040 when women started to come forward from accuser number one, Andrew Cuomo wrapped himself in this

00:16:23.580 protective shield of a crisis management team that he called his inner circle. And his inner circle

00:16:33.900 were people who used to be his chief of staff, you know, people who had very big deal jobs in, you

00:16:42.820 know, outside of government. And they came back to, you know, to help him manage this crisis. And,

00:16:52.080 and, and work with Andrew Cuomo's paid staff, but the inner circle was not paid. They were not

00:17:01.600 government employees, so they could operate in any way they wanted. And they were not accountable to

00:17:09.500 the pack taxpayers. And some of them, um, literally be their first reaction was let's have a smear

00:17:20.920 campaign against, uh, against, uh, against accuser. Number one, I carefully read the AG's report,

00:17:30.760 which was not just one volume. I, there are three volumes of evidence and I read every email,

00:17:40.440 every phone call, every spreadsheet of everything that they were doing, because I wanted to make sure

00:17:48.420 if I called somebody out as an enabler that they really were. And Chris Cuomo actually came in

00:17:57.720 and he may have come in before, but the evidence proves that Chris Cuomo actively came into the inner

00:18:07.340 circle at the time of accuser number two. And that's when he went from being copied on emails,

00:18:18.300 to writing the emails, to leading. This is what Andrew must say right away. And he must address this.

00:18:31.860 And it was a strategy and the strategy with accuser number two, um, which now the New York Times is on

00:18:41.560 to the strategy. Charlotte Bennett was accuser. Number one backfired when we launched a smear campaign.

00:18:51.800 So let's, let's be really nice to accuser number two. Let's say, let's make sure we say she is a valued

00:19:02.240 member of the team, but it's all a con game to them. They don't, they don't really know, you know,

00:19:12.460 we'll say, we'll, we'll smear this one. We'll be nice to this one. It's just like, nobody's being treated like,

00:19:21.800 a victim coming. No, no one, no one gives a damn whether Andrew Cuomo actually did it.

00:19:27.540 They're being managed. And so the strategy for Charlotte Bennett is now say, she's a valued

00:19:36.700 member of the team. And this is what, you know, Chris's is, you know, promoting and, but we'll still

00:19:46.020 deny their claims. Well, denying, denying that there was ever sexual, it's, it's calling them a liar.

00:19:55.500 It's saying you're a liar. Whether you, you make it generic, you're discounting what these women are

00:20:04.960 saying. And Chris Cuomo, you know, and his whole thing, then he's, again, I apologize for it. Well,

00:20:14.060 there's just so much you can, these are big ethics breaches. Here's my, you know, and he played,

00:20:23.400 you can understand, you know, I'm a brother and my family comes first and everybody loved that.

00:20:30.840 And that seemed to satisfy everyone. What he did was he advised him without disclosing it and then

00:20:37.840 went in the anchor chair night after night. And only when he got outed, he was outed as having

00:20:43.380 advised Andrew Cuomo. Did he come on the air and then try to lecture us on how deeply he cares about

00:20:49.140 women and sexual harassment? Here is that soundbite. It's number one for my team.

00:20:54.640 You're straight with me. I'll be straight with you. Obviously, I'm aware of what's going on with my

00:21:00.060 brother. And obviously, I cannot cover it because he is my brother. Now, of course, CNN has to cover

00:21:09.980 it. They have covered it extensively and they will continue to do so. I have always cared very deeply

00:21:19.360 about these issues and profoundly so. I just wanted to tell you that. He cares very deeply about sexual

00:21:27.180 harassment. Profoundly so. Your reaction when you saw that. Well, I knew he was lying. I knew he was

00:21:35.160 lying and that he was a good liar. He was a convincing liar. And that really, that was, I believe it was March

00:21:47.500 1st. And that's when I sat down and really thought, I want to see what, if I wrote something

00:21:57.720 about accountability, I want to see what it would look like. So I wrote my first draft after he said

00:22:05.740 that. And would he take any, would he take any real accountability, any responsibility? Because

00:22:12.640 you tell me, Shelly, I mean, you, in your New York Times op-ed, you print his written apology to you

00:22:20.580 after that night. He saw your husband. He knew he had stepped in it. You said, he said, I can do this

00:22:27.260 now that you're no longer my boss. And you said, no, you can't. So he knows he stepped in it. And you

00:22:33.620 printed his apology email to you. This is back on June 1st, 2005 at 6.30 PM. You can look it up

00:22:40.760 online if you want to read it yourself. It says, now that I think of it, he writes to you, I'm ashamed

00:22:45.820 though. My hearty greeting was a function of being glad to see you. And he goes on to say something

00:22:54.860 about Christian Slater just got in trouble for this, although he had negative attention, but,

00:22:59.080 and I didn't, he says, so pass along my apology to your very good husband, right? The apology is to

00:23:06.100 your husband. Um, and I apologize to you as well. He adds on afterward for even putting you in such

00:23:13.940 a position. Next time I will remember the lesson, no matter how happy I am to see you. So he was going

00:23:21.480 to remember the lesson. You tell me what you thought about that quote apology and whether it was

00:23:28.840 sincere. There's nothing sincere about that apology that Chris Cuomo is a lawyer. And that to me felt

00:23:39.580 like a, an apology to my husband because he was embarrassed. It felt there's one other sentence in

00:23:48.840 there. Um, that I would, you know, as a husband, I would have been upset seeing my wife padded as such. Well, as a

00:24:03.000 lawyer, he's memorializing a false narrative. I was not padded. I was groped, grabbed. Um, that pat is quite a

00:24:17.100 different, uh, different, uh, experience and talking about his intent that, you know, he had pure intent.

00:24:29.260 What's interesting is that's, that's gaslighting. That is, is, uh, making the reader of that assume,

00:24:40.320 you know, Christian Slater had negative intent and intent and he had pure intent. I don't know that

00:24:48.800 his, I don't know that, that he's right about Christian Slater. I don't know what his intent was.

00:24:56.960 And, you know, um, and I don't know what Chris Cuomo's intent was. I think his, personally,

00:25:05.140 his intent was to belittle his former boss and to exercise some, you know, jungle tribal, you know,

00:25:16.340 uh, I'm the king of the jungle thing over a female boss. Um, talking about intent,

00:25:24.920 if you really want to apologize to somebody is really awkward. Uh, and, and then to say,

00:25:35.140 to bring up Christian Slater. So Christian Slater had been arrested the day before Chris Cuomo

00:25:48.140 groped me and it was all over the New York tabloids. It was the water cooler story of the day. Can you

00:25:58.580 imagine? And up until that point, none of us knew that, that you could be arrested for grabbing a

00:26:08.340 woman's butt in that way. Yeah. And Chris Slater was drunk and he, he grabbed some woman's behind on

00:26:14.680 the street in New York and got arrested. Yeah. But he got arrested and it, it, we all learned it was

00:26:21.780 water cooler. Everybody was talking about it the next day that we all learned it's a third degree

00:26:29.560 sexual assault. And I just thought, Whoa, like who knew that? You know, I certainly didn't feel like

00:26:41.000 I was sexually assaulted, but under the law, that's, it's a chargeable offense. So if he,

00:26:48.780 if he, if Chris Cuomo knew that, why did he do it? And you're right to point out the size

00:26:57.460 differential between the two of you, because that also, I mean, a man like that understands

00:27:02.600 the physical advantage he has over a woman like you, uh, though he didn't have the power advantage

00:27:08.260 at ABC over you. And there's no question in my mind that is, that was a factor in his behavior.

00:27:14.780 I can tell you, and you know, this too, and every woman listening to this and man knows

00:27:18.920 we've all gone to work functions where we are overjoyed to see somebody that we haven't seen

00:27:24.000 in a week or more, and you couldn't be more delighted. And we don't grab their backsides

00:27:30.360 and squeeze it in front of a bunch of work colleagues. He was absolutely trying to diminish

00:27:36.220 you. I a hundred percent agree with this. And I've been down this road enough times to know.

00:27:40.020 Um, and, and that's the man who reared his ugly head when his brother got caught doing that same

00:27:46.540 stuff to women who worked for him. His first instinct was not, let's find out whether this

00:27:52.700 is a problem. And these women actually have an issue. And my brother maybe has an issue. It was

00:27:57.640 get them, get them. And CNN has failed to reconcile with the reality of the man they have sitting in

00:28:04.600 that anchor chair at 9 PM. Instead, they've sicked him on women on his staff and within the organization

00:28:12.120 who are now one by one coming out, talking about his bully behavior. And we'll get to the latest one

00:28:18.020 right after this quick break. Uh, so much still to go over with Shelly, former executive producer at

00:28:23.360 ABC, also executive, uh, at ABC accusing Chris Cuomo of sexually harassing her up next. We'll get to

00:28:30.860 some of what I just mentioned along with, um, um, the me too reckoning and, uh, our own shared history

00:28:37.120 when it comes to Roger Ailes. Joining me today is Shelly Ross. She's a former executive producer

00:28:48.440 at ABC 17 years. She was there and CBS executive producer as well, who has accused CNN's Chris Cuomo

00:28:55.120 of sexually harassing her when they were both at ABC back in 2005. So let me just jump back to that

00:29:02.280 2005 moment. And he sent you that email. Shelly, did you respond to that email either with your own

00:29:08.380 email or in person? No. And, uh, I really think if you are friends and I've had, you know, plenty of

00:29:18.140 friends who have said things that are, and colleagues said things that were wrong, got a little too,

00:29:26.220 you know, handsy having a drink and it was different. It was, um, it was people who respected me and then

00:29:38.620 said, did I really say that last night? Oh my God, I'm so embarrassed. And you really, it's different

00:29:47.260 when somebody really is your friend. And if they do something overboard, if they're happy to see you,

00:29:55.220 I think you don't get like a legal note of apology to your husband. You get like a phone call that says,

00:30:05.360 oh, I just, I'm so embarrassed. I don't know why I was such a knucklehead.

00:30:13.700 Or you walk into somebody's office. He walks into your office. That's,

00:30:17.260 the more likely reasonable scenario and say, oh my God, please forgive me. What a dope. But this,

00:30:23.560 yes, this was a CYA because he recognized he had offended you. He'd done it in front of witnesses

00:30:28.600 and it could come back to haunt him. I've got to ask you about your husband, David, because

00:30:33.780 your poor husband must've been like, what on earth?

00:30:38.280 Well, my husband was, we were both shocked. I have to say, we just left. We don't even remember

00:30:51.760 like, I remember my husband standing up and looking at him. And I remember looking at Chris

00:31:01.660 Cuomo. And I'm sure something was said. And we just left. We, neither of us remember anything,

00:31:10.760 but like getting out of that room very quickly and heading home.

00:31:19.800 It was just, well, look that some people online are like, why didn't your husband deck him? It's

00:31:24.520 like, okay, have you seen Chris Cuomo with his weird steroid infused muscles, putting out videotape

00:31:29.780 of himself, but threatening to beat up everybody. I mean, please. And David was a gentleman. He got

00:31:34.960 his wife out of there and you did the right thing. Well, it's so funny because some of the backlash and

00:31:41.380 a lot of the, the social media comments of like, you know, well, what about the husband? How could

00:31:48.820 he just sit there? Why didn't he do something? And my poor husband looked at me the other day and said,

00:31:55.120 when did I become the bad guy? No, he's not the bad guy. My husband's never lifted his hand

00:32:02.620 or resorted to violence in his entire life, nor would he. Nor should he have been put in that

00:32:08.700 position to begin with. I I'll note for the record. I don't know that it's a fact. Chris

00:32:12.440 Cuomo has taken steroids. It just looks like that to me. Um, I want to ask you this. So you come out

00:32:18.920 with this op-ed and one of the things you add and you felt it was important to add was that you don't

00:32:24.360 want to see Chris Cuomo fired from his job at CNN. I had Tucker, I had Tucker Carlson on the show the

00:32:30.560 other week and I disagreed with you because I think he's had a pattern of bullying, dishonest behavior,

00:32:36.880 but why don't you want to see him fired? I've been in this fight for equality in,

00:32:46.400 in the way people are, women and men are treated in the workplace. It's 40 years now and nothing's

00:32:54.040 worked. Um, you know, calling lawyers didn't work, uh, sexual harass, corporate training for sexual

00:33:04.760 harassment. Hasn't worked for times up where, you know, where people were getting fired, you know,

00:33:14.180 within 36 hours up for some deserved it because they were really sexually assaulting women and,

00:33:24.600 you know, things that, that you could go to jail for. Corporations were clearing them up,

00:33:31.200 but four years of times up didn't change anything. And then we, we have, you know, uh, things happening

00:33:40.000 at ABC and, and where they're refusing investigations and outside investigators and Andrew Cuomo with this.

00:33:51.720 And I realized the discussion has to move to the enablers at ABC. It's clear.

00:34:02.020 They all knew what was going on. Well, why do you say that? Cause you, you didn't report it. I mean,

00:34:07.760 you only mentioned it to it. No, no, not me, not me. I'm saying the recent issues. No, nobody knew about

00:34:15.120 me. And again, I wouldn't have called this, uh, you know, I'd call for, for what happened to me.

00:34:23.280 Yeah. Yeah. There was a report. I should clarify. There was a report about a G, a GMA producer who

00:34:28.500 allegedly, uh, harassed some women. No, there's law, there's lawsuits. There are multiple lawsuits

00:34:35.080 against somebody who I knew and was quite fond of. And I actually wrote something like when the

00:34:44.240 harasser in the headlines is somebody you adore, that's happening to a lot of us that, you know,

00:34:52.800 that we didn't know something was going on. It's, um, but there were, you know, women at ABC reporting

00:35:02.980 things, you know, hostile environments and, and, you know,

00:35:09.380 So now we've seen it across the board is your point. We've certainly seen it at CBS. Yeah. And,

00:35:13.760 and, and, um, I just thought time's up, didn't work. Matt, the, the shame of the public shaming of

00:35:24.940 Matt Lauer and Charlie Rose, that didn't change anything. So I, I want to move it for, I just want

00:35:33.920 to see it stop. I want to see it changed. So I proposed that, that CNN, you know, not take any

00:35:44.480 disciplinary action against Chris Cuomo, but instead give us, give him an assignment to study

00:35:55.260 and report on what sexual harassment is in the workplace, what gender bias is and have him go

00:36:06.440 on a journey and then do town meetings with experts and women. Who would watch that? I don't want to see

00:36:16.060 him do that. That would be so insincere. Oh no. You only do it if it's sincere. Yeah. You can't,

00:36:23.540 he can't take it. He hasn't stopped his bullying behavior though. You know, the latest report.

00:36:28.720 I think that every, I like to think that everybody can have a second chance,

00:36:33.940 that everybody can be rehabilitated, that everybody can be educated. I really go back to

00:36:43.500 the great Desmond Tutu and what could have been worse than taking a country through

00:36:53.060 the end of apartheid, where people were murdered because of the color of their skin. And he came

00:37:03.460 up with a truth and reconciliation plan that everybody, you can't hide it. You can't lie anymore.

00:37:13.920 You can't spin it anymore. Everybody has to come forward and tell the truth about what happened.

00:37:23.740 And then you, you reconcile. Well, that would have to require, as you say, sincerity and a true

00:37:30.540 change of spots. And that's just not what we're seeing with him at all. You know, from what he did

00:37:36.020 to you, to the lies he's told on the air about his COVID recovery, coming out of the basement,

00:37:41.620 pretending that was his first time out, which was a lie, pretending he hadn't already been

00:37:45.980 expressed. No, there's been a series of that.

00:37:47.500 And then wait, and then let me just get to this. I don't want to lose Melanie Buck. Okay. This is a

00:37:51.780 female executive producer of his at CNN. You were at ABC. So, you know, I could almost see Jeff

00:37:58.300 Zucker saying, okay, that was years before he came to me. This is a woman who is at CNN,

00:38:03.160 and the female producer of his show, Cuomo Primetime, who reportedly, this is a page six

00:38:08.440 report, begged to leave his show after they clashed over significant differences. She felt

00:38:13.600 threatened by him, is the report. She asked to be removed from him because she couldn't work with

00:38:21.140 him anymore. They moved her over. Now she's going to be working on CNN Plus, which I think is just

00:38:25.440 their digital property. But, you know, it doesn't escape me, Shelley, that Melanie, so she has a

00:38:32.060 clash with him. She feels threatened by him. She's got to move to the digital side, as opposed to

00:38:36.500 this primetime post where she's the executive producer. It's a much more powerful role, as you

00:38:40.220 well know. The woman always gets moved off. That's what we saw with Andrew Cuomo, too.

00:38:45.880 Yes. Totally.

00:38:47.900 I'm sick of it. I want to see him pay a price, not her.

00:38:50.720 Well, in addressing her, I read the page six item. I don't put a lot into page six because

00:39:00.240 I know that they have written many items that were all out just lies about me.

00:39:08.840 That's true, too. I've been there, too, I have to admit.

00:39:11.320 They have one source. So now the only interesting thing is that she hasn't denied it.

00:39:21.900 She gave a statement on the record. She did.

00:39:24.720 Now, although, you know, when I she said we ultimately had significant differences.

00:39:29.720 I asked to leave the show. I've moved on. I'm looking forward to my latest role with CNN Plus.

00:39:33.980 I spent two years as an EP on his show. I'm proud to have left it at number one.

00:39:37.340 CNN. There's only so much you can say when you're still working for the company. That's obvious.

00:39:40.360 Yeah, I feel that if it's true, I feel like she must be under so much pressure and terrified

00:39:48.440 about her job and everything. This can't be, you know, coming forward is is not for the faint hearted.

00:39:59.360 Mm hmm. You know, they will. They, you know, there are are dark forces that are, you know,

00:40:09.840 an invisible inner circle. People with, you know, trying to protect the company.

00:40:16.980 They it's it. It really I feel really scared for her.

00:40:22.820 Well, and here's the reality. I feel also CNN. You've got Jeff Zucker, who did not fire Jeffrey

00:40:28.300 Toobin for masturbating on the air while on a New York, a New Yorker Zoom call. But he was

00:40:35.400 employed at CNN. Yeah, not fire him. He did not get rid of Don Lemon, who's been credibly accused,

00:40:40.360 though Don denies it, with a third party independent witness, a guy who worked with

00:40:45.660 the accuser of sexually assaulting a man in a bar. You've got this against Chris Cuomo,

00:40:50.580 you plus this executive producer. I personally know somebody at CNN who I know has complained

00:40:56.180 about his bully tactics. It goes on and on. So I understand one incident here or there. And I

00:41:02.460 also understand people do like to accuse famous people of things that they haven't necessarily done.

00:41:06.280 But this is a pattern. And I really do wonder about the women inside of CNN and whether they

00:41:11.460 feel safe working around this guy and the other guys. I also feel badly for Brian Stelter,

00:41:19.740 who has been totally compromised. He is the chief media critic. He has a great resume.

00:41:27.780 He really is a good reporter. And he said nothing about it. And Brian Stelter knows me. He knows the

00:41:41.060 position of authority I held at, you know, multiple networks. He's interviewed me. He's actually done like

00:41:52.120 he wrote a New York Times feature about me when I took over the CBS early show. And I wrote an editorial

00:42:03.740 that was published in the New York Times that literally went viral. I've seen it picked up as far

00:42:14.100 away as the Taipei Times. It was trending on Twitter, you know, Twitter burn up. And these are all things

00:42:26.220 that are Brian Stelter's beat. Did he not report on this at all? No. And he came under fire for not

00:42:37.940 reporting on it. But that where Brian Stelter is compromised, is I read over the weekend, when, when the

00:42:48.700 House bill, you know, was going into the wee hours of the morning. And Brian Stelter did a column, how CNN and

00:42:58.440 MSNBC were live with the coverage for, you know, in Congress, as you know, one o'clock in the morning,

00:43:07.260 midnight. And, you know, even as early as 11 o'clock, he wrote that, that Fox News was, had programming on

00:43:18.240 tape. Well, I think that Brian Stelter lost his, his moral authority to quote on what other networks

00:43:31.180 cover and choose to cover and don't cover. Mm hmm. Yeah, well, you know, I would make the case that happened a long

00:43:39.360 time prior to your op ed. But I see your point. And it's, it's too convenient. Because if this had been an accusation

00:43:45.800 against Tucker Carlson, Brian Kilmeade, Brett Baer, you know, any of these guys at Fox, you can guarantee

00:43:53.140 Brian Stelter would have found his pen, and it would have been written about. Stand by, Shelly,

00:43:58.340 I want to pick it up with you in just one minute.

00:44:04.980 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show. Joining me today, Shelly Ross, a former executive producer for

00:44:10.180 many, many years at ABC News and at CBS News, who has accused CNN's Chris Cuomo of sexually harassing

00:44:17.420 her back in their ABC days together. So let me ask you this, given what we were just talking about,

00:44:24.780 what do you think the women at CNN, if there are other women who have had trouble with Chris Cuomo

00:44:30.100 or anybody else, but since we're talking about Cuomo, we'll leave it on him.

00:44:33.660 How can they complain, right? So when they have a management that doesn't seem too interested in,

00:44:40.600 in pushing back on this kind of behavior? They can't, they can't complain, because the person in

00:44:48.560 charge has made it clear that Chris Cuomo can do anything he wants with impunity. So how can he

00:45:00.040 complain? How can anybody complain without, uh, women are, are already terrified to come forward

00:45:10.560 and you don't want to get anybody in trouble on one hand. And on the other hand, uh, you know,

00:45:20.600 you're sort of, if you've been in the workplace any period of time, you know, it's going to reflect

00:45:27.980 badly on you. It's, it's, it's like the pendulum has swung us back into the dark ages where it's

00:45:34.820 like, where women, which is no longer allowed to happen, you know, used to be questioned if they

00:45:41.980 were reported a rape, well, what were you wearing? Like they invited it. And even in his most recent

00:45:51.920 comment to the New York times, Chris Cuomo, when, you know, when the New York times called him for a

00:45:59.020 response said, you know, as Shelley acknowledges, our interaction was not of a sexual nature. Well,

00:46:10.080 what I want to say is there was never our interaction. He's already gaslighting everybody in that response.

00:46:20.600 Right. Like you were, I was, I was not a participant. He walked into a room and grabbed

00:46:28.980 me. This is not our interaction. So he is very clever about parsing words. And like, I was some

00:46:39.900 kind of a, you know, a part of that. As opposed to women are of his behavior. Wait, let me stand you

00:46:47.600 by apologies. I've got to pay the bills. So I can do a squeeze in a break. We're going to come right

00:46:51.660 back with, with Shelley. I will say this. If you are a woman and you have a complaint, you can email

00:46:56.580 me, email me at devil may care questions, questions with plural. My executive producer is one who reads

00:47:01.860 those at devil may care media.com. Uh, more with Shelley Ross right after this.

00:47:08.600 Welcome back to the Megan Kelly show. Joining me today is Shelley Ross. She's a former executive

00:47:17.760 producer at ABC and CBS who's accused CNN's Chris Cuomo of sexually harassing her back in 2005 when

00:47:24.940 they were at ABC news. Shelley, that sadly was not your first foray into the world of sexual harassment.

00:47:31.440 And you came out publicly back in 2016 and told your story about being harassed by Roger Ailes. And as

00:47:42.080 the world now knows, I was also harassed by him very young in my career. So can we just spend a minute

00:47:48.620 on that? What, what did you do? He, he proposed a sexual relationship with you when you were young in

00:47:55.000 your career? Oh, this was, um, an interview for my first network job. And, uh, he had, you know,

00:48:07.280 offered the, we had the job interview in person in LA and it just went great. And, uh, at,

00:48:18.340 and he offered me the job. Um, and I accepted it and said to call business affairs and I got ahold of,

00:48:27.940 you know, we put everything in motion. And then he asked for a second meeting the following day,

00:48:34.520 you know, um, he was still in town and we would have a lunch. And in the second meeting, um,

00:48:43.540 very early on, he looked at me and said, how long have you known you were sexy?

00:48:53.740 And I was so shocked and embarrassed that I, I literally like couldn't make eye contact.

00:49:04.460 And I literally put my head down and I just, I remember staring at my feet and saying, this,

00:49:13.560 this is really embarrassing. And, uh, he continued and I tried to change the subject. I tried to,

00:49:26.220 you know, if you say to somebody, this is really embarrassing, I'd like to talk about the show.

00:49:33.320 You're sending a message back that you're embarrassed and you're not interested, but he

00:49:41.160 wanted to tell me his philosophy that how he believed in loyalty and career advancement and how

00:49:53.020 he felt having, and he used the word sexual alliance. You know, if we would have a sexual

00:50:01.340 alliance, it would be amazing for both of our careers, both of us would benefit.

00:50:10.000 What year was this? Would you say?

00:50:11.960 This was 1981. This is 40 years ago, 40 years ago, which is unbelievable. And 40 years ago,

00:50:23.580 you know, there, there was no me too movement. You were there thinking that, I mean, I knew sexual

00:50:35.440 harassment existed. I hadn't really experienced it in such a way. Uh, so I really, um, I, he said,

00:50:49.280 think about it, you know, I'm here at this hotel over, you know, and, uh, call me and let me know.

00:50:58.440 And I, I just spoke, I said, you know, I don't even know you. I don't, you don't even know me.

00:51:06.980 We don't even know if we would like each other. I didn't know what to say.

00:51:10.500 Right. And he said, Oh, well, if you just, uh, if it's just that you need time to get to know me,

00:51:18.620 I can wait. And I said, well, what does that mean? You'll come into my office once a week,

00:51:26.920 once a month and say, are you ready yet? And you know, I could never work under those,

00:51:34.880 that kind of pressure. And I went and called the lawyer and we'll just fast forward to

00:51:45.000 that lawyer, you know, contacted NBC's lawyers and all hell broke loose in Roger Ailes world.

00:51:54.700 And he was put on a conference call with three of the biggest lawyers in entertainment business

00:52:01.380 who, you know, and the one thing about Roger is he never denied it. When they confronted him with

00:52:11.540 this, uh, you know, and he withdrew the, the job offer, by the way, at the end of the second meeting.

00:52:20.180 And, uh, you know, he, uh, his reaction to the, these three lawyers calling him out on this was,

00:52:32.460 Hey guys, I'm single. And he said, well, that means nothing in this conversation and whatever they

00:52:41.780 said or did, um, at the time, this is how, you know, 40 years ago, how it was handled was

00:52:50.440 let's, we have to make this scandal go away. And the best way to do it is to apologize,

00:52:59.500 Roger to apologize and get her to take the job offer.

00:53:05.120 And just jumping forward. Cause I, I, I don't have that much time with you and I have,

00:53:08.200 there's so much. So he, he apologized and you guys went on to have a good relationship and I

00:53:13.060 can relate to, well, not the apology to the, to, to the moving on and finding a way to have a good

00:53:18.340 relationship. Um, but it is interesting to me because some 25 years later, I would find myself

00:53:24.460 in an, in an office with Roger Ailes asking me about being sexy, being lectured to on the value

00:53:31.100 of loyalty, which led to a months long campaign to try to get me into bed. And ultimately him grabbing

00:53:37.980 me and trying to shove his tongue down my throat. Um, and here's what, here's what I wanted to get

00:53:42.920 your reaction to Shelly. I, this is, I've never asked anybody to hear this because I really thought

00:53:48.180 I would be that he would be so scared by these three lawyer, NBC lawyers, you know, and, you know,

00:53:58.820 putting the fear of God in him that I really thought I was the first and the last,

00:54:04.380 that I was going to go through the workplace and change one. Here's what I don't like one at a time.

00:54:11.400 You, you did what you could do. You went to a lawyer, you stood up for yourself in no world.

00:54:17.360 Once I found out that Roger was a serial harasser, I can speak for my pal, Janice Dean on this,

00:54:22.100 who was also one of his targets in no world. Did I ever look at you or Lori Loon or any woman who I

00:54:28.840 found out later had come before me and blame the woman? Never. Women have been dealing with this

00:54:35.320 for a long, long time, trying to navigate it as best they could against a system that was not on

00:54:40.180 their side. And this is, this is one of my objections to the movie bombshell where they

00:54:46.120 created a fictional character played by Margot Robbie, who at the end of the movie blamed her harassment,

00:54:52.340 not on Roger Ailes, but on me. And I wondered what your thought was on this weird Hollywood take

00:55:01.040 that, you know, somehow it always gets back to the women that, especially in media, it's always our

00:55:08.120 fault. It's all, there's always a way of blaming the woman. Well, nobody is to blame for Roger Ailes.

00:55:16.840 And I told him that. And I, you know, when I made a decision to go public, it was really to show that

00:55:27.520 this was such a, you know, my, I was probably the, you know, in 1981, I had to be at least among the

00:55:36.680 first. And that, you know, so many people were judgmental of Laurie Loon. Laurie Loon made,

00:55:46.960 you know, a Monica Lewinsky mistake, you know, Earl, as a young girl, impressionable girl,

00:55:55.160 she, she went along with it and literally had a breakdown over it. That's where it leads.

00:56:02.460 It never leads to a good place. And nobody, you know, she was exploited as a young girl. That's

00:56:10.940 why, you know, I want to say something. I have friends in the military and in the military,

00:56:17.440 they court-martial you for this. The military has strictest rules. It's called fraternization.

00:56:27.840 And you can't get romantically involved within the chain of your command because it destroys

00:56:38.960 military readiness. It destroys the team for all the reasons in the civilian world. It destroys

00:56:49.760 everything as well. The military is smart enough to actually court-martial you over it.

00:56:56.420 No questions. I mean, you go to a trial, but that's it. You're kicked out. There's a reason

00:57:05.800 this is not allowed. Our national security, they think that if people were allowed to fraternize,

00:57:15.040 that our national security would be impaired. It's that serious.

00:57:20.460 I mean, it's complicated because you, a lot of people meet their spouses at work. I mean,

00:57:25.560 maybe less so. That's not in the chain of command. That's right. But I mean, you got like the head

00:57:29.800 of babies. Oh, I had plenty of producers. We could go down the line. Plenty of producers who met and

00:57:35.900 married and had lived happily ever after and had babies. And there's one, you know, yeah. And I think

00:57:44.400 that that's a problem. I think that Bob Iger being married and then finding his true love

00:57:51.140 and having her stay there and Les Moonves and David Weston and Jeff Zucker and Roger Ailes,

00:58:04.140 I think, you know, it's, it's more accepted when the person, when they get married and it does happen.

00:58:14.660 But I think there clearly there were lines crossed on the way to that happy marriage. So I, you know,

00:58:28.000 I, I'm not the, the judge and jury, but I think it should be, um, you know, if it's true love,

00:58:38.840 then one person has to leave. Hmm. Last question. The king of England stepped down, right?

00:58:46.640 Right. Now we're going back. Um, I look at your career, you've accomplished so much. And

00:58:54.040 then I see, you know, you, you wound up leaving all, of course the, the, the necessary tabloid

00:58:59.980 reports come out that about some toxic relationship around you or bully culture. I've seen it happen to

00:59:05.420 virtually every woman who leaves our industry. You, me, Laura Logan, uh, Barbara Fidita just got

00:59:11.440 taken down. It's like, they won't let you leave without destroying you. Do you know what I mean?

00:59:16.420 And I wonder why you think our business is so disgusting to women in particular. And whether

00:59:23.060 I know you're a, you're a new grandmother now, whether this is ever an industry you could recommend

00:59:27.640 to your little granddaughter. Well, I wouldn't recommend the industry for other reasons and

00:59:37.520 more editorial, what it's become and how it's, how I would recommend journalism, real journalism to my

00:59:46.620 granddaughter. And all this, you know, the work I'm doing is really for, for future generations of

00:59:57.340 women and having this dialogue. And so many people by the social media comments I've gotten

01:00:05.340 really still don't understand, you know, it's like, what's the big deal? You know, no, I wasn't

01:00:15.260 traumatized by Chris Cuomo's actions, but I was belittled. And you, and it's, um, that's just one of

01:00:26.840 many things that went on to belittle female bosses. And I, I took, when I was at ABC, I took income

01:00:39.760 revenue from $19 million when I got to Good Morning America to nearly a hundred million dollars in five

01:00:48.960 and a half years. That's the gift that keeps on giving. I closed the gap with the, the competitors. We won

01:00:58.980 awards. I made turn Good Morning America into, you know, from a show where everybody went home at six o'clock

01:01:08.380 at night to a 24 seven news operation, um, that really had tremendous muscle. I brought

01:01:19.400 Charlie Gibson back and teamed him with Diane Sawyer and gave it a real news hep, you know, went to an, a year

01:01:31.680 before we went through nine 11 and anthrax attacks and wars. And I did a lot. Um, and when they can't

01:01:47.760 attack you on your talent, I worked five times as hard as anybody else there and put in all the hours,

01:01:58.260 you know, when you're fixing a show while you're have still have one on the air, you know, when I

01:02:06.620 got the first couple of years were 18 hour days, of course. And when they can't, and I wasn't a

01:02:16.340 perfect boss. I mean, part of no one is no, there wasn't, I was built into the cake. That's the thing.

01:02:23.160 Every, every article people see about what it's, it's, it's so often about a female boss or a female

01:02:28.800 powerful person in our industry. You remember, no, one's a perfect boss. You don't think you could

01:02:33.780 write a toxic or bully or what, you know, whatever they come at you with. You could write all that

01:02:38.520 stuff about any male in the industry, but the pattern in news is once you, once you get pushed

01:02:43.500 out, you don't just get pushed out. They destroy you. I talked about it with Laura Logan. It's disgusting

01:02:49.900 and people need to be aware that it's a dynamic by these powerful media organizations that continue

01:02:56.340 to do it with impunity. They continue to do it as they try to lecture the rest of us on morality.

01:03:02.580 I got to go. I'll give you a quick last word.

01:03:05.080 No, Laura Logan is my hero and she got caught up in a bad story because CBS, which owned the

01:03:16.000 publishing company that did that book, had her do a book that was a conflict of interest in the

01:03:22.860 first place. Yeah, no, Laura, we had her on the show and it was a great, it was a great exchange and

01:03:28.000 it was a good expose of what this thing does to you. I don't know. I respect your accomplishments

01:03:34.720 so much, Shelly. Thank you.

01:03:36.900 I know you're continuing. I mean, you've got a great, we didn't even get to the Cure Alliance,

01:03:40.680 but it's a nonprofit group she's got going with scientists and researchers and they're trying to

01:03:44.900 end suffering by developing cures for fatal diseases. So on and on the effort to improve

01:03:49.940 our world goes. We'll continue to watch it and our love to David too, who emerges as the gentle

01:03:55.920 hero of the story. And we'll talk again. We've got Katie Kirk's book coming out.

01:04:01.600 Oh my God, you're booked. Consider yourself booked. There's a lot more to go over.

01:04:06.040 We've got a lot to talk about.

01:04:07.940 Thanks for being here.

01:04:09.040 Thank you. Thank you for having me.

01:04:11.820 Wow. Wow. What an exchange. I want to, I want to, I need to have dinner with her. Not just,

01:04:16.100 this wasn't enough. Um, listen up next, we're going to get to another great journalist whose

01:04:20.740 name is Katie Herzog. And we're going to talk about how women are being erased from scientific

01:04:25.500 conversations. Um, it's actually getting really kind of scary now, including in the medical field

01:04:31.700 to the, to the danger of those patients involved. Uh, and what do you think about Shelley's

01:04:38.300 allegations against Chris Cuomo? Should he be fired? Call me at 833-44-MEGAN, M-E-G-Y-N. That's

01:04:43.060 833-44-6-3496.

01:04:49.800 Welcome back to the Megan Kelly show. Everyone joining me now, journalist Katie Herzog. She's

01:04:53.780 the host of the blocked and reported podcast, which I really recommend and a writer on Substack

01:04:59.520 and other publications. And she's been doing incredible reporting on how woke ideology is

01:05:03.860 spreading in the medical industry and what that means for doctors, nurses, and all the rest of us.

01:05:08.920 Katie, great to have you here again. Thanks so much for having me back, Megan.

01:05:11.760 Okay. So you wrote, you're sort of visiting a visiting fellow on Barry Weiss's Substack and wrote

01:05:18.500 this barn burner of a report, um, after speaking to a woman, I think you called her Lauren in the

01:05:23.220 piece. Who's a med student at a top medical school who was telling you how concerned she was about woke

01:05:30.780 ideology, infecting medicine. I mean, actual science, uh, in a way that is really disturbing,

01:05:37.280 including not no longer willing to acknowledge the very real differences in health issues between men

01:05:44.480 and women, something women and their advocates have been trying to push for greater attention to

01:05:49.240 for decades. Yeah. That's sort of the irony here is that after decades of women arguing that our

01:05:56.320 health issues are not focused on, there's now this, this unfortunately sort of progressive movement

01:06:02.240 away from that where gender identity becomes, it's become this sacrosanct concept. So gender identity

01:06:07.960 has become more important in some places than biological sex. And so the student I spoke to,

01:06:13.420 um, this was at a top school at the, at the university of California system. She told me that her,

01:06:18.180 her professors will essentially get scolded, get shamed by their own students. If they talk about

01:06:24.100 biological sex. And she had lots of documentation to back this up. She sent me audio of a professor

01:06:29.860 saying profusely apologizing to his students for offending him, offending his students. Uh,

01:06:35.700 he sounded like he was about to cry and the offensive term that he used, uh, in his lecture was pregnant

01:06:41.060 women. So absurd. And it's not just him because just this week we saw the CDC use the term, uh,

01:06:49.700 pregnant people. Um, all the media seems to be going along with it. Now I saw you tweet out something

01:06:55.220 like, is this like a new style acceptance that we're no longer going to use the term women anymore,

01:07:01.700 anywhere. Cause it's what was it is NPR. I think ABC, um, a few publications just went along with

01:07:08.660 it. A lot of publications have gone along with it and it's happened remarkably quickly. It sort

01:07:12.900 of reminds me of the adoption of the term Latin X. And there's been polling on that term. And most

01:07:17.860 people who, who are considered Latin X by the media either don't know what that term is or don't like

01:07:22.740 that term. Right. I think the same thing is happening here. And I haven't seen any polling on the term

01:07:26.580 pregnant people versus pregnant women, but just intuitively there is something very bizarre about

01:07:31.580 this erasure of, of women within women's health. And yes, it's not just the CDC. It's not just the

01:07:37.460 media. It's organizations like Planned Parenthood, which, you know, should be able to use the term

01:07:41.900 women without a, without consequence. It's very strange. So it's to the point of like the danger

01:07:47.740 that's being posed now. Um, this is, I think this is from your report in 2019, the new England journal

01:07:54.600 of medicine reported the case of a 32 year old transgender man who, so transgender man, so

01:08:01.540 biological female, um, who went to an ER complaining of abdominal pain and tell us what

01:08:08.860 happened. So this patient was assessed as an obese man suffering from complications of hypertension. He'd

01:08:15.720 quit taking his, his hypertension medication, um, because he, he identified himself as a trans man,

01:08:21.980 uh, the, his, his practitioners, the nurses in charge of him didn't sort of, they didn't realize

01:08:27.560 this woman in particular, didn't realize what was going on. And it turned out he was pregnant. Um,

01:08:31.860 and by the time they figured out what was happening, it was too late and the baby was gone.

01:08:35.700 And according to this report in the new England journal of medication, while this man had no idea

01:08:40.440 that he was pregnant, he was really devastated by this. Um, and something sort of the opposite of that,

01:08:45.240 of that has happened recently. A trans person is suing a, um, a hospital because they were,

01:08:50.720 a trans man is suing a hospital because he was, uh, he was given a pregnancy test and this was,

01:08:55.980 Oh, this is in Rochester, New York, right? This is right near my neck of the woods.

01:08:59.640 Yeah. Yeah. So this was considered very offensive to him and I can understand.

01:09:03.200 He's a biological female. He's in the hospital, but he lives his life as a man and they want to

01:09:08.300 give him a pregnancy test. Right. And, uh, and this patient says that his practitioners didn't use

01:09:13.360 his preferred pronouns. I think that's wrong, but if there's not an acknowledgement of biological

01:09:18.460 sex, people are going to, practitioners are going to miss things. Things are different with men and

01:09:24.220 women. When it comes to medication, dosages are different from different medications. Symptoms are

01:09:28.660 different from, uh, from different conditions. A female heart attack doesn't look like a heart

01:09:32.560 attack. It doesn't look like a male heart attack. And so in a case like this, you can see why the

01:09:36.540 practitioners would want to give everybody who, who is a female person, a pregnancy test, because if

01:09:42.100 you're like, let's say undergoing anesthesia, they need to know, and it can be a liability for these,

01:09:47.480 for these doctors, if somebody ends up being pregnant. Um, so I think there's a pretty easy

01:09:51.980 solution here, really. You can respect people's gender identity. You can respect their pronouns.

01:09:56.360 You can call them the name and the pronouns that they want, but you also need to indicate what

01:10:00.560 their biological sex is. And my wife, yeah, my wife is a, is a nurse in Seattle and at her hospital,

01:10:06.260 they have stopped marking down biological sex on intake forms. So what you get is gender identity.

01:10:11.980 It's incredibly dangerous. And, and the thing is like, this is done out of, I think some real,

01:10:18.220 some real sensitivity. People are trying to be inclusive. They are trying to do the right thing,

01:10:22.240 but there are consequences to this. And these consequences could end up hurting people,

01:10:26.180 end up hurting trans people, which is going to have the opposite of the intended effect.

01:10:29.180 Well, and, and even if you took the hardcore attitude of, well, it's only the trans community

01:10:33.160 that that's going to hurt itself by imposing these crazy rules on people. It's not true. So,

01:10:37.880 because first of all, the activists do not speak for the majority of trans people who are kind and

01:10:42.560 loving and don't want to follow all these nonsense rules or make the rest of us do it. And the second

01:10:46.580 thing is, what about that baby? Do we care about the baby who died because of this crazy PC nonsense?

01:10:51.540 Yes, we do. You know, I have to say, Katie, I, a couple of years ago, I had an ovarian cyst and it

01:10:56.700 had to come out and they said, um, we're going to take a look. And if it's, you know, wrapped around the

01:11:01.180 ovary, we'll take the ovary too. And I said, Oh, I want to take both ovaries. Cause then, you know,

01:11:05.000 I don't have to worry about ovarian cancer. And he said, that would put you into early menopause.

01:11:08.920 And Doug said the ovary stays because apparently, apparently you can worry about your sex drive

01:11:13.560 going down if you go to early menopause anyway. So, um, then the, the doctor said to me, it was a

01:11:18.560 cancer OBGYN doc. And he said, um, one thing I would recommend is while we're in there, we should

01:11:23.240 take the fallopian tubes. If you're not, if you're done having your kids, because the research shows

01:11:27.020 that virtually all or all of the most pernicious forms of ovarian cancer start in your tubes and your

01:11:32.320 fallopian tubes, I'm like, take them. I'm done. I'm so done. And, um, so I don't have any fallopian

01:11:37.740 tubes to this day. If I have to go in for some procedure, I still have to give him a pregnancy

01:11:42.280 test. I don't have any. I'm a lesbian. I can tell them there is absolutely no chance that I'm pregnant,

01:11:48.000 but you can see from a doctor's perspective, why the pregnancy test would be, it's a liability.

01:11:53.140 If you, if, you know, if I can tell a doctor, you know, I'm a lesbian. And what if it turns out

01:11:57.780 that I had a little tryst on the side and I'm pregnant and something happens. And then I sue the doctor.

01:12:01.660 This is like a pregnancy test is also not that invasive. It's not like a blood test. It's a P

01:12:08.740 test. It's crazy that we're skipping that out of a PC desire for trans, well, for biological women

01:12:15.880 who are presenting as men, trans, trans men. Right. Right. And there's this, the thing is like

01:12:21.380 within trans activism. And as you mentioned, this is not the majority of trans people. There are a

01:12:26.060 small number of basically hyper online trans people who are sort of pushing this is that they do not speak

01:12:31.460 for the majority of trans people at all. Most trans people acknowledge their own biological sex.

01:12:36.700 The thing that makes them trans is that they're trying to appear and live as the opposite sex,

01:12:42.640 but you still have to acknowledge your biological sex. You still have to take the medications every

01:12:46.400 week or every two weeks or whatever, you know, you get the surgeries, but there is this ideology

01:12:50.360 that it sounds ridiculous to even say this, but this idea that if you, that you are what you say

01:12:57.240 that you are. So if I say that I am a trans man, that means I am male. I am literally male,

01:13:02.760 which is just, it is a historical nonsense. It's not true. It's not true. You can be respectful

01:13:08.160 of somebody who is trans without signing onto that nonsense. And this, can you speak to, this is what

01:13:12.660 Lauren was trying to say to you as a med student, that she doesn't, she knows that there are medical

01:13:17.020 differences between men and women, you know, like we're women are more prone to X and men are more prone

01:13:21.560 to whatever. Um, heart disease is one of the things, you know, a heart attack presents differently

01:13:26.300 in a biological woman than it does in a biological man. But like she, she was making the point. I

01:13:30.520 don't have the time to, on my own, every single disease they present us with do the extra layer

01:13:37.220 of now let me on my own, figure out how it affects a man and a woman differently. And then when I meet

01:13:41.820 patients, spend the extra time trying to figure out, cause it's not on the chart, finding out whether

01:13:46.000 they have a biological, a different sex than how they're presenting. Yeah. She was very concerned

01:13:51.380 about this because she feels like in her school, and I should say, this is, this is just one, one

01:13:56.520 program at one school. I did hear from other students after the piece was published that

01:14:00.300 confirmed this and other, other medical schools around the country, but the piece really focused

01:14:04.860 on this one school. Um, and she was concerned that she isn't being, isn't getting instruction.

01:14:10.000 She needs on, on differences on how things present differently among, among the sexes.

01:14:15.500 And I can see why her professors would avoid this because their students act like little

01:14:20.600 stasi. I mean, they have these, uh, they have these online messaging platforms where they

01:14:25.180 give the instructors real-time feedback while they lecture. And if, if a, if a lecturer says

01:14:31.000 something problematic and that can be us using terms like male and female, the students will

01:14:35.440 complain about it. They had multiple petitions within the last year of this program, uh, trying

01:14:41.280 to basically reform these, reform these teachers, uh, their language use, you know, so they're

01:14:46.380 doing it. It's working. They're doing it and they're doing it. Yes. They are scared of their

01:14:50.700 students. Yes. You, you, um, you've got the National Institutes of Health, the CDC, Harvard

01:14:55.620 Medical School, all trying now to make the effort to divorce biological sex from gender identity,

01:15:01.140 um, and, and focus, emphasize on gender identity. Both matter. Both matter. You got the American

01:15:08.200 Psychological Association deeming terms like natal sex, birth sex, um, disparaging. Now it's only

01:15:15.400 assigned sex at birth as though biological sex is not relevant and maybe even offensive.

01:15:22.140 Right. And you can imagine a situation. So now in, in many States, maybe all States,

01:15:27.260 I'm not sure about this. You can get your, uh, your, your sex marker changed on your,

01:15:31.380 on your birth certificate and on your driver's license. So let's say a trans person, uh, gets

01:15:36.420 in a car accident and is unconscious and goes to a, goes to an ER. And then the ER, the, the

01:15:42.560 first responders there, they are, all they have is this driver's license. If the person has had

01:15:46.520 surgeries to look like a male or a female or whatever, they might not even realize the actual

01:15:51.680 biological sex of the person that they're working on. Because this, this official ID says that you

01:15:56.720 are this thing that you believe that you are. And again, you know, go back to what happened to

01:16:00.680 that baby. That baby died because they were unwilling to probe further. Uh, so this, we need

01:16:05.700 to care. I mean, this is, this is a problem and it's a problem even in the, in the psychiatric field

01:16:10.280 now too, more and more therapists are coming out and saying all people's problems are supposed to be

01:16:15.140 attributed to identity. It's no longer about Katie. What'd you go through? You know, did you have a

01:16:20.080 pain in the ass mother? Oh, well let's blame her. It's now all about, well, you're white. So you're

01:16:24.920 an oppressor. So that's probably the root of your depression. Right. And we should be careful not to

01:16:30.380 generalize too much. You know, therapists vary as much as any other, any other field, but yes,

01:16:34.940 there is this trend within, within the field of, of mental health to attribute, especially among,

01:16:41.120 among young natal females, teen girls to attribute various, you know, you go in complaining of,

01:16:47.120 of some problem. And then all of a sudden you're diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

01:16:50.860 And this isn't the first time we've seen these, these trends throughout history. There was during

01:16:55.560 the 1980s and 1990s, psychiatry, or I'm sorry, therapists were integral into the spread of the

01:17:01.140 repressed memory craze, which was widely debunked, but had all of these terrible consequences,

01:17:05.180 not just convincing people that they underwent horrific abuse, but also people actually went to jail.

01:17:10.620 Um, so yeah, it makes me very, very cautious to, uh, to ever see a therapist personally.

01:17:16.660 You don't want to leave with more problems than you came in with.

01:17:19.140 Well, and we've talked about this and I talked about it with Abigail Schreier and I know you,

01:17:22.160 you're familiar with her work, but you know, she pointed out how parents who have a child who

01:17:26.820 presents as trans, who never presented as trans before, you know, it's always a girl who's 15,

01:17:31.620 who was never no, no signs at all. And then a couple of her friends say that they're

01:17:37.900 non-binary or whatever it is. And suddenly their daughter's like, well, maybe I'm trans.

01:17:42.280 Abigail was sounding the alarm on be careful because the new standard in the psychiatric

01:17:46.480 field is affirm, affirm, affirm, affirm. And I've seen some of your reporting dovetail with that,

01:17:51.860 that like people go. And the first thing they're told is yes, your kid's actually a boy. And the

01:17:56.440 parents are like, wait, you know, she got bullied. You know, it could be any one of a number of things.

01:18:01.520 Right. Right. It's a real problem. And the standards of this have actually have,

01:18:04.180 have literally changed so that, so what the recommendations now are, are it's called

01:18:10.280 affirmative consent. So you basically tell a, tell a patient, tell the parents, you know,

01:18:15.700 there's some possibility you'll regret this, but you don't necessarily have to explore other issues

01:18:20.580 of what might be going on. Maybe issues with someone's sexual orientation or depression or

01:18:25.080 anxiety, or just like being a teen girl, which is difficult. And teen girls are notoriously prone to

01:18:30.560 social contagion and peer pressure. But it's, it's become this sort of progressive, not just talking

01:18:36.260 point, but this, this, this dogma that if someone comes and they say, I am trans, you cannot inspect

01:18:42.380 that. You cannot, you cannot ask them what else is going on. You just have to accept this. And this

01:18:47.100 is part of this is a backlash to very real gatekeeping within this field. So for decades, if you wanted to

01:18:53.380 transition, you had to live as your preferred sex, your preferred gender for two years before you were

01:18:59.660 given things like, like, uh, hormones or surgery that can be very onerous. Um, and so this is the

01:19:04.680 opposite of this. This is the, the, the backlash, the reaction to this is to basically take away all

01:19:08.880 gatekeeping. And for some people that's going to, that's going to be better. It's going to have

01:19:12.140 good outcomes, but for some people it's not, and there's going to be a certain number of false

01:19:15.860 positives who regret this. Well, and meanwhile, they're, they're performing mastectomies on girls

01:19:20.780 as young as 13, 13 double mastectomies to this called top surgery, uh, because we want to pretend

01:19:27.660 that somebody absolutely has it has gender dysphoria. And as soon as they express it,

01:19:32.100 that's what it really is. And we don't need to look further. And the reality is that the vast

01:19:37.120 majority, I mean, I've seen it, you tell me, but I've seen any place between 60%, 90% of kids who

01:19:42.460 have gender dysphoria grow out of it. And a very large percentage of them, if left to their own

01:19:49.040 devices and not perform surgery or gender, uh, hormones or any of that turn out to be gay or lesbian.

01:19:54.220 I would have been one of those kids. I was a classic tomboy and grew up to be a lesbian.

01:19:58.600 If I had been born 20 years later, I might be talking to you as a they, them, right? I probably

01:20:04.320 wouldn't be talking to you right now, but it might be a non-binary or trans right now. And, and you're

01:20:09.780 right. There's lots of studies that back up that the statistic varies, but the majority of kids,

01:20:14.900 if sort of left to their own devices will eventually grow out of this. That said, if you start

01:20:19.680 transitioning, if you start on, on hormone blockers or social transitioning, that number changes. So

01:20:25.460 people who start to go down this path are much, much likely to, the term is to cyst, but much,

01:20:30.120 much less likely to likely, excuse me, much less likely to grow out of it. If they're given some

01:20:34.520 sort of a medical intervention, you've been doing great reporting on how, if you do puberty blockers

01:20:41.140 into cross gender hormones, you, you will be infertile. Um, you can have all sorts of other problems,

01:20:47.900 but just the puberty blockers can be really problematic. Um, when it comes to, let's say

01:20:53.840 it's a girl who thinks suddenly that she's actually a boy, she takes puberty blockers. Um,

01:21:01.220 she's going to be, it's going to affect her height, right. For forevermore, like other

01:21:05.780 unforeseen consequences. These are not harmless drugs. Right. One of the clinicians I talked to told

01:21:11.220 me that in this person is skeptical of youth transition. Uh, so keep that in mind. But one of

01:21:15.260 the clinicians I talked to said, you know, the last thing that you want to do, if a girl wants to

01:21:19.860 appear to be a man, the last thing that you want to do is make her shorter. Right. And so these

01:21:24.760 people, the, the, the main puberty blocker that is given to, to natal females is Lupron, which is a

01:21:31.200 drug that's used to treat prostate cancer. And there are Lupron has been used. It's an off-label use,

01:21:36.780 but it's been used for precocious puberty. So, so girls who let's say get their periods or eight or

01:21:41.380 nine years old, it's been prescribed to them for a long time. And so we can look at the,

01:21:45.200 look at the side effects of this. There's bone density issues. As you mentioned, there's fertility

01:21:49.540 issues. Um, and this just, we just don't have good evidence that there aren't going to be

01:21:54.160 long-term side effects for people who are, who are using this now. And it's being prescribed and we

01:21:58.940 don't have great data on this, but just anecdotally it's being prescribed just much more widely than it

01:22:04.300 probably should be. Yeah. Like candy, because the standard is affirm, affirm, affirm. All right. I want to ask

01:22:08.920 you about some other reporting that you've been doing on a story that's been in the news and, and

01:22:12.620 to your credit, as usual, you're not afraid to push back against the narrative, capital T, capital N,

01:22:18.240 we're being fed, um, by some in the press. There is a story. Okay. This is not the Amy Cooper story

01:22:25.780 where she was walking the dog in Central Park. And, um, she got into a confrontation with a black man

01:22:31.540 also by the name of Cooper and they call her Central Park Karen. She lost her job. This is a different,

01:22:36.660 uh, story about a white woman and a black couple. And I think it also involves a dog.

01:22:43.980 So can you just set it up for us and set it up? What happened?

01:22:47.440 Dogs are the problem. Stay away from dog parks. Uh, that's, that's the message here. Um, so this

01:22:52.060 happened in, uh, sort of, uh, ironically named McCarran park in, in, uh, New York. This was a

01:22:57.240 couple of weeks ago. A woman named Emma Sarley, um, got into a confrontation with a man named Frederick

01:23:03.920 Joseph and the confrontation that was over his dog, which he thought was being aggressive.

01:23:09.580 Frederick Joseph is a, he's an influencer. He's an author. He does marketing. He does content

01:23:15.100 creation. He has a hundred thousand followers on Twitter. And he has this long history of turning

01:23:19.820 what he perceives as racial aggressions into content. So if you look back into his tweets,

01:23:25.240 like he posted a tweet some time ago, he took a picture of a woman on a, on an airplane with her

01:23:31.560 feet up on the seat back in front of her. And he said that this was a United flight. He said that

01:23:37.260 the, the flight attendant asked this woman to take her, her feet down. And she refused. And the

01:23:42.060 flight attendant offered her a thousand that United offered this woman a thousand dollars to do this.

01:23:46.700 Anybody who has flown, they make you pay to like, put your baggage in the overhead. They make you pay

01:23:51.780 to put, to have a seatbelt at this point. No airline is going to it's fine. And this is in,

01:23:55.540 this is not in first class. Nobody, no airline is going to do this. So he does stuff like this.

01:23:59.520 He posted another photo of a, of a man also on an airplane, laying a white man, laying his,

01:24:06.040 he was just laying, he had three seats to himself. So he's just laying down on the airplane. And

01:24:09.780 Frederick Joseph said, you know, a black man would never be able to do this. I don't know any airline

01:24:13.840 who would enforce that. That's just not a rule. Right. So he has this history. He, at one point he

01:24:18.780 accused, he stayed in an Airbnb and he accused the Airbnb of, of, of having all of this Satanist

01:24:24.680 iconography made it into a huge viral story. So this is what he does. And in this particular case,

01:24:30.080 he whipped out his phone during this confrontation or after the confrontation with this woman.

01:24:35.380 And he said, did you say, uh, to stay in my neighborhood? And she said, yes, the woman,

01:24:41.580 frankly, appeared to be a little bit drunk. Um, her behavior was also erratic and sort of bizarre.

01:24:46.900 And so he films this and then he puts this online and he said,

01:24:50.060 Okay. Now let me pause you there. Let me pause you there. Cause I think we have,

01:24:53.100 so the moment she allegedly says the thing about your hood or your neighbor,

01:24:57.000 that's not on camera, but the aftermath is let's watch it.

01:25:01.060 Stay in our hood. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:25:03.560 I'm going to invite everyone.

01:25:05.000 Stay in our hood. Stay in our hood. That's it. I'm sorry. What?

01:25:09.700 Stay in our hood. Stay in our hood. You just told us to leave the dog party and stay in our hood.

01:25:16.000 Oh my God. Did you just say that's me?

01:25:17.540 I'm sorry. You were right here. Watch this entire thing. Did she just not stay in here?

01:25:25.260 Tell us to stay in our hood. She did. She just told you just told us to stay in our hood.

01:25:29.860 Okay. Go ahead. Pick it up.

01:25:32.020 Okay. So he takes that clip and he puts it online,

01:25:35.000 shows it to his hundreds of thousands of followers and he directs his followers to find this woman.

01:25:39.120 They go and do it. And then he figures out where she works and he tags her employer

01:25:43.840 and she is fired within a couple of hours. So Camille Foster really did some incredible reporting on this

01:25:51.380 and he interviewed witnesses. And what he found was that during this confrontation,

01:25:55.980 Frederick Joseph said that he lived in Long Island city. So this wasn't his neighborhood.

01:26:00.980 So it sounds as though what she's saying is go back to your... She probably shouldn't have used

01:26:06.640 the word hood. She might've been mirroring his language. I'm not sure, but she probably should,

01:26:11.580 you know, just like stay away from that term. She wasn't saying like, go back to the ghetto,

01:26:15.440 but apparently what she was saying...

01:26:16.980 Your hood and the hood are two different things.

01:26:19.140 Right. Right. Like this is our dog park and at our dog park, we don't do this. Go back to your dog

01:26:23.880 park. Um, so Camille Foster found this out and, uh, he, he, he, he also realized something pretty,

01:26:30.840 pretty incredible here. So CBS local news, they interviewed some witnesses as well as Frederick

01:26:36.260 Joseph. Apparently the witnesses, the witness, as well as Frederick Joseph said this in the interview,

01:26:43.480 they said, they both said this. He said, I live in Long Island city. She said, go stay in your,

01:26:48.740 go back to your hood or go, we'll stay in your hood. CBS local news cut that part of the

01:26:53.860 interview. Why would they do it? Well, it's less salacious that way. So Camille got in touch with

01:26:58.840 the reporter. The reporter refused to talk to the, talk to him. He called the station. Nobody would

01:27:04.140 talk to him. They just have completely not answered to the fact that they left out this crucial bit of

01:27:09.020 information. Now is Emma racist? It's totally possible. I have no idea, but the question is,

01:27:14.940 should she have been fired from her job immediately because of this 32nd video out of context video where

01:27:22.160 nobody really knew what was hap, what happened to lead up to this conflict.

01:27:25.700 Oh my gosh. This is what, and she was fired because he made a point of tagging her employer.

01:27:34.280 I mean, this guy clearly wanted her fired. Contrast that with the central park situation where

01:27:39.420 the guy, though there are problems with that story too, at least he came out publicly and said,

01:27:44.220 okay, I, you know, I don't know that she should be fired over this and have her whole life ruined.

01:27:47.920 This guy was like, let's ruin her. Let's get her. And even Nicole Hannah Jones, you know,

01:27:53.560 of the 1619 project in the New York times came out and was like, I don't know if I'm okay with

01:27:57.620 this whole, let's fire everybody and let's fire this girl. And I mean, but that, but they did it.

01:28:02.280 She got, she lost her job. Yeah. And then, uh, and then the CEO of course got dogpiled for that

01:28:07.720 because as many people who thought he did the right thing, a number, you know, probably an equal

01:28:12.760 number of people thought that he did the wrong thing. So he should have just backed,

01:28:16.540 he shouldn't have said a word. He should have just backed up and like kept this internal.

01:28:20.780 And you know, there's another question here, which is why are our bosses adjudicating what we do

01:28:27.100 outside of work? I find that really deeply uncomfortable, right? If my employees, like

01:28:32.160 my co-host Jesse single, if my employee, uh, is doing something outside of work that I object to,

01:28:37.360 is it my, is it my business to regulate his, his, his behavior? Should I just, you know,

01:28:42.560 should I call his girlfriend? Should I call his dad and tell him it just doesn't make any sense.

01:28:46.360 And there are of course going to be exceptions to this. If somebody is like, you know, has like

01:28:50.880 a dog fighting ring in their basement or something. If it's a crime, sure. That's a different story.

01:28:56.500 But for these interpersonal interactions that really shouldn't be, this is a fight in a dog park,

01:29:02.000 right? And not even a very big fight. These interpersonal interactions should really just be

01:29:07.620 ignored or, or, or, or solved between the people. This doesn't need to be something that you run to the

01:29:12.700 boss. I mean, ironically, what Frederick Joseph did is the quintessential Karen move. He called

01:29:17.780 the manager. That's right. You're exactly right, but there's no grace and, and forget, you know,

01:29:24.600 this guy is an activist clearly who just wants to get, get people fired and sort of cause trouble.

01:29:29.780 I that's obvious based on what you've just told us, but for the employer to not take a moment and say,

01:29:35.980 yeah, obviously she was intoxicated, which by the way, is not illegal. Uh, and people do stupid

01:29:41.900 things when they get drunk and they say stupid things. And maybe she meant to say neighborhood,

01:29:44.920 who the hell knows? Um, you can't tell, but like, what, what did the investigation show?

01:29:49.580 Did they bother to do one or they just can her?

01:29:51.520 I mean, it was too fast. She was, she was fired within hours. There's no way that they could have

01:29:56.680 conducted any sort of real investigation. And the thing for Emma is that she's, she seems like a

01:30:02.040 young woman, you know, this will haunt her for the rest of her life. This will be at the top Google

01:30:06.680 results for the rest of her life. Unless she hires one of these, you know, services that cost a hundred

01:30:10.860 thousand dollars and they'll push your Google results down to page two or whatever. Um, but this will

01:30:16.120 look into that. Abby, make a note. Um, they're going to be working all the time for me, but you

01:30:25.120 know what? It's, it's kind of the same thing like that, that employer is doing the same thing that

01:30:29.980 those professors who are self editing in the medical schools who are not true believers are doing,

01:30:35.380 you know, they're just cowing, bowing to the woke mob, uh, because they're afraid they don't have

01:30:41.020 anything close to a steel spine. And they're just as complicit in the erosion of grace,

01:30:46.120 and kindness and understanding that humanity is complicated as the, as the angry activists who

01:30:52.660 I'm fighting against on this program are. Yeah, it's fear. And I, and I'm empathetic towards them

01:30:59.080 because, you know, if you have thousands of people calling for this woman's head, it takes incredible

01:31:03.720 resilience to not listen to them, especially if you're a business, especially if, you know, this

01:31:08.820 could, this could hurt your bottom line. If customers are calling you and saying you have to

01:31:12.180 fire this woman, I can understand why people would do that, but there needs to be some grace

01:31:18.420 period. There needs to be some way to resolve these. Cause the story that emerges online with

01:31:23.060 anything, almost anything with a 30 second video clip is much more complicated, much more nuanced

01:31:28.600 than, than, than what we're led to believe. And people should remember this after the Covington story.

01:31:33.660 And then immediately after that, the Jussie Smollett story, but there's this, this need to sort of act

01:31:39.240 immediately, um, that really doesn't serve people.

01:31:43.160 Hmm. Katie Herzog, such great reporting as always. We love Camille too. Uh, one of the co-hosts of the

01:31:48.880 fifth column he was on the show not long ago. And, uh, so we'll keep an eye on his reporting as well.

01:31:53.000 Great to see you. Thank you for being here.

01:31:54.620 You too. Thanks for having me.

01:31:55.800 Up next, we're taking your calls. Would love to know your thoughts on Chris Cuomo.

01:31:58.720 I think he'll address Shelley's allegations. Will CNN, will Brian Stelter ever, do they give a

01:32:03.840 damn? What about Katie's reporting? Are you in the medical community dealing with these issues?

01:32:07.900 Or what do you think about this guy at the dog park trying to get this woman's job? Call me

01:32:12.000 833-44-MEGYN. That's 833-446-3496.

01:32:19.780 Phone lines are open, everyone. Call me 833-44-MEGYN. That's 833-446-3496. We're going to take our

01:32:32.040 first caller out of Brooklyn, New York. Hey, Brooklyn, what's your thought?

01:32:37.000 Hey, Megan, how are you? I just want to say thank you so much for providing some truth and substance

01:32:41.880 in an era of media that you rarely see that being done today, especially on a program that's CNN,

01:32:48.780 which, my God, that Chris Cuomo, what a terrible guy that is. I mean, he had his brother on,

01:32:56.360 you know, when the governor was doing well. He was so loved. And then next thing you know,

01:33:01.500 like 13, 14, 15 women come out, accuse him of sexual harassment. Chris Cuomo didn't say one

01:33:08.440 thing about his brother. Not one thing at all, because you knew that he had some skeletons in

01:33:14.200 his closet as well. So, and Shelly, what an interview today. Shelly seems pretty credible.

01:33:20.220 She seems pretty credible. I'm telling you, Megan. So, hey, thank you for providing her a platform.

01:33:25.880 CNN has been horrible lately. I mean, the truth is just not there. Brian Stelter,

01:33:31.520 don't get me started on that guy either. But Megan, geez, thank you so much,

01:33:35.720 because CNN has just been ridiculous.

01:33:37.500 Well, thank you for calling in with your thoughts. You know, it really does bother me because you know

01:33:42.600 very well that it's a double standard. And if this had been one guy at Fox, Brian Stelter would have

01:33:47.100 been writing all about it. And, you know, Chris Cuomo's got a pattern of bullying nonstop. And I'm

01:33:52.780 really kind of sick of it. And I think a lot of people are. I'm going to squeeze in one more

01:33:55.660 caller before we go. Jiffy Quick, Nancy in Indiana. What are your thoughts?

01:33:59.240 Megan, I just can't tell you how much I enjoy your podcast. Listen to them every time. But I was

01:34:04.640 wondering, do you think you'll ever interview Megan or Melania Trump or Donald?

01:34:10.360 Oh, definitely. Definitely. I would love to interview them. I'd love to talk to Melania

01:34:14.040 because I haven't done that yet. And Trump is a newsmaking machine. So, yes, I predict we'll get

01:34:18.340 him on the podcast and the show at some point soon. Thank you for listening. Thank you all for

01:34:22.300 listening tomorrow. One of my favorite people, people, Victor Davis Hanson is here. John Stossel,

01:34:27.660 too. And guess what? Ben Smith of The New York Times, who broke that story on Aussie media,

01:34:32.500 which is now imploded. He's coming on. So don't miss that. Check out our show at

01:34:36.560 youtube.com slash Megan Kelly. We'll see you tomorrow.

The Megyn Kelly Show - October 04, 2021

Sexual Harassment Allegation Against Chris Cuomo, and a Woke Push To Eliminate Biological Sex, with Shelley Ross and Katie Herzog ｜ Ep. 173

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