The Megyn Kelly Show - Sharyl Attkisson on Media Bias, Narrative Vs. Facts, and Big Tech Censorship

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00:01:01.320 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:03.260 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:01:12.760 Hey everyone, it's Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.380 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:15.880 Today on the program we've got Cheryl Atkison.

00:01:18.500 She is a badass journalist who is hosting her own show right now called Full Measure on Sunday mornings on Sinclair.

00:01:27.600 Multiple award-winning journalist.

00:01:30.100 And she's also author of the new book, Slanted, how the news media taught us to love censorship and hate journalism.

00:01:38.640 I'm a big fan of hers.

00:01:39.740 I've actually never met her.

00:01:40.880 So this will be our first time talking and we can experience it together.

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00:01:46.400 She comes at it from some familiar angles, but a lot of unfamiliar angles.

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00:01:52.120 So we'll get to Cheryl in one second.

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00:03:17.280 And now, Cheryl Atkinson.

00:03:19.200 Thank you so much for being here.

00:03:22.780 Glad to be here.

00:03:23.400 Thank you for having me.

00:03:24.520 Okay, so the book is called Slanted,

00:03:27.320 how the news media taught us to love censorship and hate journalism.

00:03:32.060 You're on a roll with these books, which I've been loving,

00:03:35.280 and you really are somebody, forgive me for using the phrase,

00:03:39.140 who's speaking truth to power.

00:03:40.920 I mean, what's happened to our media is disgusting.

00:03:43.840 It's stomach-turning to me how dishonest they are

00:03:48.300 and how just you can see the few hangers-on to this legacy media lie

00:03:53.260 that these are the fair, impartial arbiters of news.

00:03:58.280 And they're not.

00:03:59.740 And your book points out the over-reliance on, quote,

00:04:02.500 narrative, the narrative versus the facts.

00:04:06.240 So explain that just to kick it off.

00:04:07.980 I would just say I look at the narrative the way I define it as a storyline

00:04:13.540 that some political or corporate interest usually wants furthered on the news

00:04:19.380 or now on social media and online.

00:04:22.320 And they find very clever ways,

00:04:24.940 and they pay a lot of money to make sure that the news is saturated with the narrative.

00:04:30.080 Now, it doesn't mean that everything you hear

00:04:31.960 when a storyline or a narrative is told is false.

00:04:35.640 I explain that in the book, but it qualifies as a narrative

00:04:39.040 when it's presented in a one-sided fashion, as it usually is,

00:04:43.260 to the exclusion of contrary views, counterpoints, scientific studies

00:04:47.980 that would give you a fuller, more robust picture,

00:04:51.180 but they don't want you to have it

00:04:52.360 because they're not out there to get you the facts on the ground.

00:04:55.180 They're out there to further a narrative for another goal.

00:04:58.120 So that's what I mean when I'm talking about the narrative,

00:05:00.420 which really saturates almost every news organization today,

00:05:04.020 even those that still have some good reporting being done there.

00:05:08.000 And there is a lot of good reporting if you can find it,

00:05:10.320 if you look hard enough.

00:05:11.540 But they're overwhelmed, even at places like the New York Times

00:05:15.020 and CNN and the Washington Post, by these narratives.

00:05:18.840 So how does it happen?

00:05:19.960 How does the narrative get introduced?

00:05:22.400 It used to be, and I think I wrote more of this in the earlier books,

00:05:26.420 that political and corporate interests knew how to get their nose under the tent

00:05:31.820 at news organizations by, let's say, me, my example at CBS News.

00:05:37.600 I get an email from Media Matters, the left-wing propaganda group.

00:05:42.000 And it sounds very rational, and they give me a lot of, quote, research.

00:05:45.540 And, hey, I don't blame them.

00:05:46.720 It's one-sided research to further the goal of their donors and so on.

00:05:49.900 But as a journalist, I understand that.

00:05:51.640 There may be something useful in there,

00:05:52.860 but it's certainly nothing I report verbatim.

00:05:55.520 But they figure out how to use middlemen

00:05:58.300 and more of a masked way to lobby reporters

00:06:01.320 in a way that looks more natural and organic.

00:06:03.460 They use PR firms, crisis management firms, LLCs,

00:06:08.240 political action committees, global law firms.

00:06:11.080 And they figure out how to impact the newsroom,

00:06:14.880 whether by pulling strings at the corporate level

00:06:17.860 or using social media to controversialize a certain topic or reporter.

00:06:22.280 But they figure out how to shape the news

00:06:24.620 in this sort of indirect way.

00:06:26.560 But what's newer now that I see is

00:06:29.600 we've actually allowed them to infiltrate, as I say, our newsrooms.

00:06:33.500 We've now hired them into our newsrooms.

00:06:35.380 They don't even have to lobby us and be so clever about it.

00:06:38.240 They are us.

00:06:39.500 They work as analysts and reporters

00:06:41.500 and editorial people in the newsrooms.

00:06:44.120 They no longer have to be sort of trying to convince us

00:06:47.760 through these third-party nonprofits and law firms and PR firms.

00:06:51.160 So I think that's the big change.

00:06:53.680 We've allowed the firewall to come down between us and them.

00:06:57.280 And now they've pretty much, I think, largely taken over at many news organizations.

00:07:02.680 You know, I'll give you one example of Media Matters,

00:07:04.620 which I always looked at as a bunch of cranks,

00:07:07.220 you know, just hacks who are just partisan operatives

00:07:09.480 trying to bring down Fox News.

00:07:11.100 And anybody who's not towing the left-wing line in media,

00:07:14.800 they would just make up things.

00:07:16.080 I mean, they would just take three words completely out of context

00:07:20.100 in, let's say, a segment in which you offer the opposite view.

00:07:24.080 But they would just take your one line and say,

00:07:26.680 she pushed this without noting that you then got to the other part

00:07:30.560 and you had debated it.

00:07:31.780 So they were just dishonest hacks.

00:07:34.140 But, and of course, they do that to everybody at Fox on any issue

00:07:37.480 when it comes to sexism or racism or transphobe, whatever,

00:07:40.600 you know, because they're dying to call you those things.

00:07:42.200 And I always sort of shoulder shrugged it.

00:07:44.940 And then when NBC and I departed ways, parted ways,

00:07:49.680 they started releasing their fake list

00:07:53.420 of all these allegedly insensitive things I had said over the years.

00:07:58.300 And everyone ran with them.

00:08:00.380 The left-wing press is just like,

00:08:01.840 oh, look at this long list of horrible things she said.

00:08:03.900 I'm like, holy shit, this is straight out of Media Matters.

00:08:07.560 Everyone is just putting it on the air as though it's real.

00:08:10.080 And it wasn't my first aha moment of knowing how dishonest and lazy

00:08:14.400 the media is that they would take a Media Matters hit piece

00:08:17.900 and put it in their, you know, previously respected newspaper.

00:08:22.180 But on a personal level, it definitely brought it home for me.

00:08:25.920 You know, I think one of the first times I understood

00:08:28.940 how Media Matters was pulling strings at news organizations

00:08:31.820 was I did a series of stories about green energy waste.

00:08:37.960 This was under the Obama administration.

00:08:42.080 And of course, it doesn't mean you're against green energy

00:08:45.220 because you are simply following the money on waste.

00:08:48.380 In fact, people who are pro-green energy should care

00:08:51.200 if companies are stealing or wasting the money.

00:08:54.020 And that's anyway the approach I took

00:08:55.400 because a lot of companies that got money under the stimulus plan

00:08:58.640 were in fact going under.

00:09:01.260 Executives were making off with the funds.

00:09:03.140 There were just a lot of problems.

00:09:04.280 And this was not, this was after Solyndra.

00:09:06.960 There were many, many more, as I say, Solyndras

00:09:09.340 that weren't reported on.

00:09:11.240 So I started reporting on them.

00:09:12.460 And this proved to be a very, very, I guess, soft spot

00:09:16.680 in the underbelly of the Obama administration.

00:09:19.420 Again, I don't even think about politics a lot of times

00:09:21.900 when I'm starting those stories,

00:09:23.020 but I do understand it impacts an administration.

00:09:25.760 We started hearing back from energy department folks

00:09:29.160 under the Obama administration

00:09:30.220 who wouldn't talk for the interview.

00:09:32.820 But once the story aired,

00:09:34.600 the first story in the series I was going to do,

00:09:36.760 they sort of flipped out.

00:09:38.700 And they wrote a letter to our legal.

00:09:41.200 And of course, my stories,

00:09:42.080 I always have them approved by legal.

00:09:43.820 And they claimed this and that wasn't true.

00:09:45.960 And of course, it all was true.

00:09:47.360 And we wrote a letter back.

00:09:48.900 And when they kind of struck out there

00:09:50.300 because they wanted us to correct or retract our report,

00:09:53.280 which was perfectly accurate,

00:09:54.900 all of a sudden, out comes Media Matters

00:09:57.280 with exactly what the energy department had said

00:10:00.440 in their letter with false claims.

00:10:02.940 In other words, they were working together.

00:10:04.660 And then once Media Matters puts it out

00:10:06.920 through their network of nonprofits

00:10:09.440 and places they work with

00:10:11.740 that people don't understand

00:10:12.660 or connected to Media Matters,

00:10:13.840 it started to look like,

00:10:15.060 wow, there's a groundswell of reporting

00:10:17.980 that shows Cheryl's reporting was untrue.

00:10:21.300 And it just took on a life of its own

00:10:23.420 because like you say,

00:10:24.820 reporters are either happy to serve the narrative

00:10:26.800 perhaps ideologically

00:10:28.460 or they're just too lazy.

00:10:30.440 And it's just, it seems like a delicious story

00:10:32.700 and they don't decide to do their own legwork.

00:10:35.280 But that was just one example that stood out to me

00:10:37.800 where I started to understand.

00:10:40.120 And in my second book, The Smear,

00:10:42.640 a lot of people have networked out

00:10:44.320 the Koch brother connections and stuff like that,

00:10:47.000 conservative and libertarian groups.

00:10:48.780 But nobody had done that.

00:10:50.560 I had seen Media Matters to the extent that I did it.

00:10:53.240 And I found dozens of groups

00:10:54.960 that are all under the Media Matters umbrella

00:10:57.160 that people think are independent,

00:11:00.080 nonprofit, media watchdog,

00:11:03.120 got good government groups,

00:11:04.520 but you follow the money

00:11:05.780 and these are all connected.

00:11:07.120 And that's how they can give the groundswell,

00:11:10.120 the look that there's some sort of story going on.

00:11:14.040 It may just be the Media Matters donors

00:11:15.940 who want it to be a story,

00:11:17.100 but they can put it out

00:11:17.880 through 15 different organizations

00:11:19.380 that all put out press releases

00:11:21.400 and contact the news.

00:11:22.460 And all of a sudden, it's on the news.

00:11:25.480 And of course, who's funding all of that?

00:11:27.580 Well, they keep that dark, as you may know.

00:11:29.580 We did know that George Soros

00:11:31.340 gave a million dollar donation

00:11:33.420 about the time Glenn Beckett Fox

00:11:35.820 was talking about the Soros connection

00:11:37.580 to Media Matters and other groups.

00:11:40.680 They were kind of keeping it secret,

00:11:42.360 but then he just came out and said it,

00:11:44.400 that Soros was giving a million dollars

00:11:46.220 primarily to go after Glenn Beck on Fox News

00:11:48.740 through Media Matters.

00:11:49.720 But shortly after that,

00:11:51.800 they began using a third-party fundraiser.

00:11:54.660 And that's a way to legally,

00:11:55.900 I'll say legally launder the money

00:11:57.760 or the identities of the donors

00:11:59.240 because the fundraiser's name

00:12:01.220 goes on the disclosures,

00:12:02.700 but you don't know who the fundraiser

00:12:04.760 raised the money from

00:12:06.140 and she doesn't have to tell.

00:12:09.120 Can I tell you that you mentioned Glenn Beck

00:12:11.300 and you mentioned yourself

00:12:12.860 and I'm talking about myself.

00:12:14.120 I do think they're very effective

00:12:16.340 at trying to discredit people over time.

00:12:21.340 Like, you know,

00:12:22.340 obviously Glenn is a very colorful character,

00:12:24.660 but he's not some loon

00:12:25.760 and they paint him like he's some nutcase.

00:12:29.460 Meanwhile, you know,

00:12:30.340 his attacks on Anita Dunn,

00:12:31.980 he was onto something, right?

00:12:33.620 It's like he was the one saying

00:12:34.880 a caliphate was coming in the Middle East.

00:12:36.320 Everybody said he's a nutcase.

00:12:37.720 Well, he was onto something, you know,

00:12:39.360 and after you,

00:12:40.640 and we'll get to this later,

00:12:41.340 but your claims of being spied on

00:12:42.980 by the Obama administration

00:12:44.060 with your computers and so on,

00:12:46.660 I felt like they were doing

00:12:47.660 the same thing to you in the news.

00:12:49.020 Like, she's a nutcase.

00:12:50.120 We've lost Cheryl.

00:12:51.120 Like, no one can listen to her anymore

00:12:52.520 and I mentioned what they did to me.

00:12:53.840 So it really is a coordinated effort

00:12:55.960 to try to bring down anybody

00:12:57.700 who is threatening to their narrative.

00:13:00.520 And it wouldn't work

00:13:01.600 without their partners in the media

00:13:03.100 like Slate and Salon

00:13:05.920 and Box and Huffington Post

00:13:07.940 and they have these groups

00:13:09.580 that will just echo

00:13:10.600 and spread around

00:13:12.020 these false narratives

00:13:13.860 and it takes hold

00:13:15.140 in popular culture

00:13:16.120 to some degree.

00:13:17.320 You know, there's,

00:13:17.820 there are a lot of people

00:13:18.400 that don't fall for that stuff,

00:13:19.900 but there are a lot of people

00:13:21.140 that probably,

00:13:22.440 you know,

00:13:22.840 I've talked to people

00:13:24.100 who get their news

00:13:24.820 from Media Matters

00:13:25.580 and didn't know

00:13:26.060 that it was a propaganda group.

00:13:27.300 They thought it was a fair

00:13:28.240 media watchdog group

00:13:29.440 of some kind

00:13:30.040 and if that's what you do,

00:13:31.500 that's where you get

00:13:32.140 your information.

00:13:33.400 You're going to have

00:13:34.140 a picture of the world

00:13:34.840 that's completely slanted.

00:13:37.180 I interviewed Glenn Beck

00:13:38.080 on my program recently

00:13:39.220 and he reminded me

00:13:40.780 that one year

00:13:42.940 he was in,

00:13:43.860 I believe,

00:13:44.200 the top three

00:13:45.100 most admired men

00:13:46.440 in the world

00:13:47.020 on some survey

00:13:48.520 by Time Magazine

00:13:49.540 or some big group.

00:13:51.200 Maybe it was even

00:13:51.720 just Gallup

00:13:52.700 and he was between

00:13:53.540 the Pope

00:13:54.180 and President Obama

00:13:56.240 or somebody like that

00:13:57.300 and then they got

00:13:59.040 to town on him

00:13:59.760 because he went to Fox

00:14:00.820 and he started unearthing

00:14:02.140 these unpleasant stories

00:14:04.540 and within a fairly

00:14:06.480 short period of time

00:14:07.440 he was the most

00:14:08.040 villainized

00:14:08.820 and despised man

00:14:10.320 in America

00:14:10.800 or among them.

00:14:11.900 So he went from

00:14:12.640 and that was just

00:14:13.600 a propaganda campaign

00:14:14.700 that did that

00:14:15.320 that took him

00:14:16.060 from most admired

00:14:16.940 to most despised

00:14:18.000 very quickly.

00:14:19.940 That infuriates me.

00:14:21.180 I've known Glenn

00:14:22.040 a long time

00:14:22.700 since his time at Fox

00:14:23.960 and Glenn is a good man.

00:14:25.820 They take,

00:14:26.360 you know,

00:14:26.800 a common here

00:14:27.640 or a common there.

00:14:28.300 You're on the air

00:14:28.920 as much as he is

00:14:29.700 or you are or I am

00:14:30.640 and obviously

00:14:31.260 you're going to have moments

00:14:32.380 that you didn't phrase

00:14:33.600 things perfectly

00:14:34.240 you'd like to have back

00:14:35.120 and he's owned that

00:14:35.920 but the complete

00:14:37.340 smearing of him

00:14:39.100 as a racist,

00:14:40.940 as a kook

00:14:41.860 is dishonest.

00:14:44.580 It's dishonest

00:14:45.360 and it's wrong

00:14:46.280 and it's just

00:14:46.800 one of the many examples

00:14:48.040 and one of my problems

00:14:49.140 with what we're seeing now

00:14:50.220 is stories like that

00:14:51.980 they're being put

00:14:53.000 on the air by CNN.

00:14:54.680 CNN,

00:14:55.640 it used to be

00:14:56.340 my place I'd go for news.

00:14:58.340 I as a Fox News anchor

00:14:59.520 used to get my news

00:15:00.400 over at CNN

00:15:01.380 before I went on the air

00:15:02.220 at the Kelly file

00:15:02.740 because I liked Wolf Blitzer.

00:15:04.840 I thought he was

00:15:05.180 a straight shooter.

00:15:06.480 I liked Anderson.

00:15:08.020 He was,

00:15:08.380 you know,

00:15:08.520 not the most exciting

00:15:09.360 thing to watch

00:15:09.960 but I thought he was

00:15:11.220 a straight shooter.

00:15:11.960 Of course,

00:15:12.300 I never enjoyed

00:15:13.080 like Don Lemon's newscast

00:15:15.460 was not my thing

00:15:16.300 and Chris Cuomo

00:15:16.880 wasn't there

00:15:17.440 when I was there

00:15:17.980 and at least

00:15:18.420 he was on the morning show

00:15:19.340 trying to act

00:15:20.560 like a big man.

00:15:21.800 Finally,

00:15:22.020 Alison Camerota

00:15:22.720 managed to get him

00:15:23.440 off of her partnership

00:15:24.660 and sicked him

00:15:26.040 on the primetime

00:15:26.700 which has been

00:15:27.320 unfortunate for people

00:15:29.000 looking for straight news

00:15:30.000 at that hour

00:15:30.940 but anyway,

00:15:31.460 they're putting

00:15:32.560 this stuff on the air

00:15:33.400 and you used to work

00:15:34.320 at CNN.

00:15:34.940 What do you think

00:15:35.440 of what has happened

00:15:37.240 to them?

00:15:38.260 Well,

00:15:38.960 it's shocking

00:15:40.140 and it's really sickening

00:15:42.140 and I spoke

00:15:42.800 to other CNNers,

00:15:44.480 former CNNers

00:15:45.440 about what happened.

00:15:46.700 They can't watch CNN

00:15:47.640 and I spoke

00:15:49.040 to executives

00:15:49.600 that used to run CNN.

00:15:51.520 I spoke to executives

00:15:52.740 that know Zucker

00:15:53.800 and talked about,

00:15:55.540 talked with him

00:15:56.220 about how he was

00:15:57.520 going to create something

00:15:58.460 and what he had

00:15:59.680 in mind

00:16:00.180 for taking things

00:16:01.100 left and being

00:16:01.920 sort of the counterpoint

00:16:03.640 he thought to Fox News

00:16:04.780 and that sort of thing.

00:16:06.180 So I think it's more

00:16:06.840 interesting in some respects

00:16:08.020 what they said in the book,

00:16:09.340 what they think of CNN

00:16:10.260 but it's what a lot

00:16:11.020 of people think

00:16:11.740 and to hear it from insiders,

00:16:13.620 many of whom told me

00:16:14.440 they lean left

00:16:15.140 if they told me

00:16:15.860 anything about their politics.

00:16:17.380 They're just as appalled

00:16:18.420 as anybody else

00:16:19.280 because CNN still has

00:16:20.860 some great folks

00:16:21.600 that work there

00:16:22.160 and if you go to,

00:16:23.840 if you travel around

00:16:24.500 the world

00:16:24.900 as I've been doing

00:16:25.580 for my program

00:16:26.260 and I sometimes

00:16:27.760 hire CNN stringers,

00:16:29.860 people I knew at CNN

00:16:30.840 who still do some work

00:16:32.460 for CNN.

00:16:33.760 CNN International

00:16:34.460 is still doing

00:16:34.980 some great work.

00:16:36.400 There are still

00:16:36.780 some good people there

00:16:37.640 but they've made

00:16:39.520 a concerted decision

00:16:40.800 to just abandon

00:16:42.380 any pretense

00:16:43.280 of neutrality

00:16:44.020 which, gosh,

00:16:45.600 when I was there,

00:16:46.520 Megan, in 1990 to 93,

00:16:48.020 we would not have dreamed

00:16:49.640 of even uttering

00:16:50.640 the kind of news organization

00:16:51.640 it was.

00:16:52.260 If anybody had come out

00:16:53.560 of a press conference

00:16:54.340 with the president

00:16:55.000 and said something like

00:16:56.520 that was a bad speech

00:16:58.300 then they would have

00:16:59.940 been pulled off the air.

00:17:00.840 They would just not be able

00:17:01.560 to keep their job there.

00:17:02.660 Now it's what's expected

00:17:03.760 and I think that's the key.

00:17:05.820 So you see former

00:17:06.780 straight hard news journalists

00:17:08.660 going kind of off the deep end

00:17:10.820 with their opinions

00:17:11.860 and bias

00:17:12.400 because that's

00:17:13.340 what's rewarded there.

00:17:14.380 They get pats on the back,

00:17:15.560 they get their own show,

00:17:16.480 they get promoted

00:17:17.120 and that's what CNN wants.

00:17:19.420 The question is

00:17:20.180 what it becomes now

00:17:21.980 and in the book

00:17:23.840 we talked about

00:17:24.600 with executives saying

00:17:25.780 it's really made its name,

00:17:27.820 it's kind of

00:17:28.420 spoiled its reputation

00:17:30.420 but made a name

00:17:31.340 with what it's done

00:17:32.240 under the Trump era,

00:17:33.460 what happens next?

00:17:34.900 It can't exactly

00:17:35.780 pull things back in

00:17:37.060 and go back to

00:17:37.920 being a straight news organization.

00:17:40.460 What happens now?

00:17:42.360 Well, I mean,

00:17:42.840 there are reports

00:17:43.920 that CNN is on the market

00:17:45.860 and if, you know,

00:17:47.740 if it does get sold,

00:17:49.260 that'll determine

00:17:50.000 a lot about

00:17:50.640 its editorial direction

00:17:52.020 in the future.

00:17:52.820 I mean, you could

00:17:53.480 get the reputation back

00:17:54.880 if you fired

00:17:55.620 the entire primetime.

00:17:57.420 Right.

00:17:57.680 That would help

00:17:58.120 but you'd have a lot to do

00:18:00.960 and frankly,

00:18:01.640 it's not just primetime.

00:18:02.540 I mean, I mentioned

00:18:03.000 Alison Camerota,

00:18:03.760 she used to be at Fox

00:18:04.480 but she's totally anti-Trump

00:18:05.960 and very open about it

00:18:06.980 in a news role now

00:18:08.140 and so is the daytime.

00:18:10.520 I mean, pretty much

00:18:11.040 everybody there

00:18:11.640 has been very, very open

00:18:12.740 about their hatred for Trump

00:18:13.920 and look,

00:18:14.780 I don't care if you hate Trump.

00:18:15.960 I couldn't care less.

00:18:17.260 You're just not supposed

00:18:17.780 to show me.

00:18:18.700 I'm not supposed to know

00:18:20.040 as if you're a news anchor

00:18:21.880 and they don't care

00:18:23.720 and my question to you

00:18:24.680 on that is

00:18:25.320 do you think it is

00:18:27.340 a personal hatred for Trump

00:18:30.080 or do you think it is

00:18:31.780 a Jeff Zucker directed thing

00:18:33.560 like you were saying,

00:18:34.340 like saying bad things

00:18:35.540 about Trump,

00:18:36.720 calling him a liar,

00:18:37.560 being really opinionated

00:18:38.760 about him

00:18:40.120 will be rewarded

00:18:41.500 or is it both?

00:18:43.800 I think it's both.

00:18:44.720 I think they're in a place

00:18:46.020 where they like,

00:18:47.160 you know,

00:18:47.760 they like being able

00:18:48.440 to criticize Trump

00:18:49.380 and they have a boss

00:18:50.080 who encourages it

00:18:51.120 but again,

00:18:52.080 I think this is

00:18:52.920 all part of a larger plan

00:18:55.920 not to cover the news

00:18:57.620 in an accurate way

00:18:58.500 but to make sure

00:18:59.640 to get Trump

00:19:00.540 or to hurt Trump

00:19:01.500 or to make sure

00:19:02.520 he doesn't get elected again.

00:19:03.680 These are bigger goals

00:19:04.840 that they're serving.

00:19:06.280 It's not about telling us

00:19:07.900 the truth

00:19:08.420 and then how does this hurt us

00:19:10.480 in the big picture

00:19:11.240 as journalists?

00:19:12.880 When people watch the news,

00:19:14.580 I think, Megan,

00:19:15.300 and they see that

00:19:16.100 the reporter's thumb

00:19:16.940 is on the scale,

00:19:17.760 they don't believe

00:19:18.720 the stuff that you say.

00:19:19.800 Even if they like it,

00:19:20.680 maybe there's Trump haters

00:19:21.740 watching people hating on Trump

00:19:23.320 but they know

00:19:24.260 in the back of their mind

00:19:25.140 that when they see other news

00:19:26.460 or they hear a report

00:19:27.380 about Trump,

00:19:28.380 they know they may not

00:19:29.520 be getting the whole truth

00:19:30.580 and same with the other side.

00:19:32.340 You know,

00:19:32.480 people discount

00:19:33.600 what they hear

00:19:34.260 depending on who

00:19:34.920 they heard it from

00:19:35.740 and I think there's

00:19:36.980 a huge market out there

00:19:38.120 for people

00:19:38.860 who really want

00:19:40.400 just the news

00:19:41.580 that goes wherever it goes

00:19:42.700 and they don't have to say,

00:19:43.620 well, I saw it here,

00:19:44.580 therefore,

00:19:46.280 I'm probably not getting

00:19:47.200 the whole truth

00:19:47.840 on this side.

00:19:49.140 They want to be able

00:19:49.740 to go watch

00:19:50.380 a news organization

00:19:51.360 kind of like CNN

00:19:52.160 used to be

00:19:52.720 and think that's just

00:19:53.700 where the chips fell.

00:19:55.240 This is just what happened.

00:19:57.040 Exactly.

00:19:57.500 I used to say,

00:19:58.060 you know,

00:19:58.260 being boring is one thing

00:20:00.140 but being boring

00:20:01.000 and biased is unforgivable

00:20:02.120 and that's where

00:20:02.740 they've crossed over to.

00:20:03.920 I miss the old boring CNN

00:20:05.820 that just presented

00:20:06.460 the facts to me

00:20:07.160 and they weren't sexy

00:20:07.960 but they seemed real

00:20:09.460 and they really did

00:20:11.000 keep the bias out of it

00:20:12.220 and I appreciated that

00:20:13.720 especially,

00:20:14.140 I mean,

00:20:14.320 even at Fox News

00:20:15.340 I thought they're not

00:20:16.520 fair and balanced.

00:20:17.400 You know,

00:20:17.560 I understand they're not

00:20:18.320 loving the Republicans

00:20:19.260 but they're not totally

00:20:20.060 unfair to them

00:20:20.680 and I can separate the wheat

00:20:23.100 from the chaff at least.

00:20:24.100 Now it's just all,

00:20:25.060 it's all chaff.

00:20:26.220 There's no separating

00:20:27.180 because there's nothing

00:20:27.660 to separate.

00:20:29.960 You have always been somebody

00:20:31.440 who has not been afraid

00:20:33.580 to go where the reporting goes

00:20:35.200 and correct me if I'm wrong

00:20:37.180 but I believe it was

00:20:38.060 when you were at CBS

00:20:39.240 that you were the one,

00:20:42.700 you either broke it

00:20:43.860 or you were the one

00:20:44.520 to sort of first go after

00:20:46.560 Hillary Clinton's lie

00:20:48.520 that she faced sniper fire

00:20:50.640 during her 1996 trip to Bosnia.

00:20:53.360 So this is during,

00:20:54.500 her claim happened later

00:20:55.900 during her presidential contest

00:20:57.400 but she was making a claim

00:20:58.600 about her 1996 trip

00:21:00.020 that you had been on.

00:21:02.280 I was in the early years

00:21:04.180 of CBS at the time.

00:21:05.940 I don't cover politics.

00:21:06.860 I have successfully avoided

00:21:08.480 not being on a presidential campaign.

00:21:10.660 CBS used to always try

00:21:11.620 to assign me to a campaign

00:21:13.100 and I always saw that

00:21:14.260 as a no-win situation

00:21:15.320 because you either report,

00:21:17.420 you report the truth

00:21:18.840 and it's either favorable

00:21:19.820 to your candidate

00:21:20.560 but nobody believes it

00:21:21.860 because they think

00:21:22.400 you're co-opted by the candidate

00:21:23.860 or you're negative

00:21:25.320 to the candidate

00:21:26.020 or you're expected

00:21:26.800 to be negative to the candidate

00:21:27.820 and they think you're against it.

00:21:28.740 It's just hard to,

00:21:30.560 I think it's a no-win situation

00:21:32.040 for a lot of those reporters

00:21:33.020 so I avoided that

00:21:34.000 but I was on a trip

00:21:36.760 that the First Lady,

00:21:37.900 then First Lady Hillary Clinton

00:21:39.320 went on to Bosnia

00:21:41.440 and Greece and Turkey

00:21:42.640 and some really interesting places

00:21:44.200 with Chelsea

00:21:44.800 and we went to

00:21:46.760 a demilitarized zone,

00:21:50.300 former war zone

00:21:51.140 shortly after the Bosnian War

00:21:52.840 and indeed,

00:21:55.020 you know,

00:21:55.320 it wasn't like the safest trip

00:21:56.700 but certainly

00:21:57.300 they wouldn't have let us land

00:21:58.800 because Chelsea's on the plane,

00:22:01.020 I'm on the plane with Sinbad,

00:22:02.680 the comedian

00:22:03.140 who's going to be entertaining

00:22:03.980 the troops,

00:22:04.660 and Sheryl Crow,

00:22:05.800 you know,

00:22:06.020 it's not like they're going to

00:22:07.160 land us in a war zone

00:22:08.300 under sniper fire

00:22:09.360 but they told us

00:22:10.500 if it got dicey,

00:22:11.320 we just,

00:22:12.020 you know,

00:22:12.600 we probably wouldn't land,

00:22:13.660 we'd go somewhere else,

00:22:14.640 we didn't have to land there.

00:22:15.780 Anyway,

00:22:16.080 we landed,

00:22:16.580 it was a pleasant trip,

00:22:17.660 there were little girls

00:22:19.680 on the runway

00:22:20.480 greeting Mrs. Clinton

00:22:21.460 with flowers

00:22:22.040 and the troops took pictures

00:22:23.080 and so 12 years later,

00:22:25.440 Hillary Clinton

00:22:25.880 has turned this story

00:22:26.740 into we landed

00:22:28.160 under sniper fire

00:22:29.340 and she's running

00:22:30.440 for president

00:22:30.980 against Obama

00:22:31.740 and all I could figure is

00:22:33.220 did she want to look like

00:22:34.520 she had some kind

00:22:35.340 of military experience

00:22:36.480 or some more of a

00:22:38.320 hard-nosed war-like

00:22:40.480 experience than Obama did,

00:22:42.140 I don't know

00:22:42.800 but I had come back

00:22:44.680 from a,

00:22:46.100 I think a vacation

00:22:47.060 actually overseas

00:22:47.980 and it must not have been

00:22:48.980 with my husband

00:22:49.500 because when I got back

00:22:50.300 he said,

00:22:50.840 were you shot at

00:22:52.220 when you were in Bosnia

00:22:53.800 12 years ago

00:22:54.700 and I said no,

00:22:56.200 he said,

00:22:56.640 well Hillary Clinton

00:22:57.280 is giving speeches

00:22:58.040 and saying that you guys were

00:22:59.540 and my first reaction

00:23:01.280 was she must be

00:23:02.080 talking about another trip,

00:23:03.380 maybe she went back

00:23:04.320 so I started looking

00:23:05.760 and no,

00:23:06.280 she was talking about our trip

00:23:07.620 and believe it or not,

00:23:09.180 I don't save a lot

00:23:09.960 but I had video,

00:23:12.000 we didn't have a great archive

00:23:13.020 at CBS

00:23:13.420 but I had video

00:23:14.380 of 12 years ago

00:23:15.620 showing

00:23:16.160 we came off

00:23:17.780 on the runway,

00:23:18.600 we waved at the little girl,

00:23:20.020 Hillary posed

00:23:20.760 for pictures,

00:23:21.620 yada yada

00:23:22.040 and I told

00:23:23.700 Rick Kaplan,

00:23:25.200 you know Rick Kaplan?

00:23:26.680 Yeah,

00:23:27.060 yep.

00:23:27.780 So he was the head

00:23:28.520 of news

00:23:29.200 at CBS

00:23:29.860 at the time

00:23:30.320 of the news division

00:23:31.100 of the evening news.

00:23:33.140 I said,

00:23:33.720 I have video of this

00:23:34.600 and I don't know

00:23:35.220 why no other reporter,

00:23:36.560 there were a lot

00:23:36.920 of reporters

00:23:37.320 on that trip,

00:23:38.520 nobody else

00:23:39.060 made a deal

00:23:39.620 out of this,

00:23:40.120 everybody just kind

00:23:41.040 of let her say that.

00:23:42.300 In fact,

00:23:42.600 I think it was Sinbad

00:23:43.560 who brought this up

00:23:44.500 in a comedy routine

00:23:45.860 that she was

00:23:46.560 not telling the truth.

00:23:48.380 So show the video

00:23:49.700 on CBS,

00:23:50.600 lead the news

00:23:51.260 and there's a little

00:23:52.160 back story to that.

00:23:54.040 Rick Kaplan,

00:23:54.920 we always heard

00:23:55.920 was friends

00:23:56.360 with the Clintons

00:23:57.080 and he makes no secret

00:23:58.300 of the fact

00:23:58.880 that he leans left

00:24:00.300 but what a great boss.

00:24:02.260 He just always loved

00:24:03.160 a good story

00:24:03.800 and I did a lot

00:24:04.600 of investigative reporting

00:24:05.660 when Kaplan

00:24:06.380 was executive producer.

00:24:07.760 He let me do that

00:24:08.280 full time in fact

00:24:09.160 and I remember

00:24:10.220 when that story came up

00:24:11.260 I said to him,

00:24:12.220 I turned in the script,

00:24:13.060 he said,

00:24:13.300 it's a great script,

00:24:14.180 we're going to lead

00:24:14.620 the show with it

00:24:15.760 and I said,

00:24:17.100 well,

00:24:17.280 I'm sorry for you,

00:24:18.500 this must be awkward

00:24:19.420 and I meant,

00:24:21.460 you know,

00:24:21.700 his relationship

00:24:22.340 with the Clintons,

00:24:23.380 whatever it was

00:24:24.180 and he said,

00:24:25.900 nope,

00:24:26.220 he said,

00:24:26.760 a great story

00:24:27.460 is a great story

00:24:28.260 and you know,

00:24:29.420 that's how great

00:24:30.320 journalists think

00:24:31.140 of things.

00:24:32.040 It doesn't matter

00:24:32.660 how surely,

00:24:34.200 you know,

00:24:34.520 people have views

00:24:35.220 sometimes

00:24:35.740 but they're able

00:24:36.420 to keep that

00:24:36.960 out of their news decisions,

00:24:38.160 at least they used

00:24:38.800 to be able to

00:24:39.520 and so yeah,

00:24:40.940 that was a big story

00:24:43.020 and then afterwards,

00:24:44.540 Hillary Clinton,

00:24:45.140 by the way,

00:24:46.220 did an interview

00:24:47.540 that was videotaped,

00:24:49.880 part of it

00:24:50.240 with some newspaper

00:24:51.680 publication

00:24:52.400 and kind of apologized

00:24:54.060 and said,

00:24:55.840 the only reason

00:24:56.340 she said that

00:24:56.900 is she had been sleepy

00:24:58.000 or overtired,

00:24:59.020 which didn't make sense

00:24:59.740 to me,

00:25:00.220 do you think people

00:25:00.780 are shooting at you

00:25:01.560 years ago

00:25:02.220 when you're overtired

00:25:03.060 but she then

00:25:04.880 doubled down

00:25:05.440 and said,

00:25:06.480 you know,

00:25:07.640 I did greet

00:25:08.600 the little girls

00:25:09.200 on the runway

00:25:09.780 like you see

00:25:10.540 in the video

00:25:11.140 on CBS

00:25:11.780 because I didn't

00:25:14.060 want to have

00:25:15.080 them waiting there

00:25:15.720 and not do that

00:25:16.320 but then we ran

00:25:17.280 to the vehicle

00:25:17.940 and then we had

00:25:19.120 to dodge

00:25:19.660 the sniper fire

00:25:20.540 and I'm thinking

00:25:21.840 how does she not

00:25:22.780 realize I have

00:25:23.340 video of that too

00:25:24.200 that shows

00:25:24.800 that didn't happen

00:25:25.540 so we did two nights

00:25:27.020 we led the evening news

00:25:27.960 showing each night

00:25:29.620 that whatever she

00:25:30.280 was saying

00:25:30.720 was completely

00:25:31.500 divorced from reality

00:25:33.260 and then

00:25:34.700 as an aside

00:25:35.780 didn't she

00:25:36.240 she said something

00:25:36.780 like she misspoke

00:25:37.640 she misspoke

00:25:38.440 like well

00:25:38.920 many many times

00:25:40.240 about critical details

00:25:41.620 right

00:25:42.400 and then

00:25:43.820 I don't know

00:25:44.960 if you want

00:25:45.220 to talk about this

00:25:45.880 but one interesting

00:25:46.600 thing I think

00:25:47.420 in in the book

00:25:48.880 is about

00:25:49.400 I never said

00:25:51.140 she lied

00:25:51.800 and there's a reason

00:25:53.140 for that

00:25:53.600 I said

00:25:54.100 what she reported

00:25:55.100 wasn't

00:25:55.600 what she said

00:25:56.200 wasn't true

00:25:56.900 I showed the

00:25:57.920 contradiction

00:25:58.520 and so on

00:25:59.640 but today

00:26:00.960 anything

00:26:01.520 Trump does

00:26:03.080 even if it's

00:26:03.680 a misspeaking

00:26:04.540 situation

00:26:05.200 that's a lie

00:26:06.300 that's a headline

00:26:06.840 it's a lie

00:26:07.300 more with Cheryl

00:26:09.440 in one moment

00:26:10.060 but first

00:26:10.580 I shared a hot

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00:27:32.640 slash mk

00:27:33.360 that's

00:27:33.740 scoremaster.com

00:27:35.160 slash mk

00:27:36.320 I was on the

00:27:41.540 air covering

00:27:42.220 Obama

00:27:42.700 every other night

00:27:44.040 saying if you

00:27:44.780 like your plan

00:27:45.180 you can keep

00:27:45.580 your plan

00:27:45.880 if you like

00:27:46.260 your doctor

00:27:46.540 you can keep

00:27:47.000 your doctor

00:27:47.360 and we

00:27:47.840 we knew

00:27:48.360 it wasn't

00:27:48.820 true

00:27:49.120 so we

00:27:50.000 would not

00:27:50.420 use the

00:27:50.820 word lie

00:27:51.400 on my show

00:27:52.400 but we would

00:27:52.860 say it

00:27:53.340 isn't true

00:27:53.800 this is what

00:27:54.440 you know

00:27:54.820 the forecasts

00:27:55.400 are showing

00:27:55.800 this is what

00:27:56.200 the plan

00:27:56.520 actually is

00:27:57.260 a lot of

00:27:58.880 people are

00:27:59.200 definitely

00:27:59.440 going to lose

00:27:59.780 their plans

00:28:00.320 and their

00:28:00.740 doctors

00:28:01.100 and then

00:28:02.260 the reporting

00:28:03.600 developed over

00:28:04.180 time to show

00:28:04.960 that not only

00:28:05.720 was it untrue

00:28:06.280 but he knew

00:28:06.980 he knew it

00:28:07.580 was untrue

00:28:07.980 when he was

00:28:08.500 saying it

00:28:08.980 and that makes

00:28:09.920 it a lie

00:28:10.380 and I never

00:28:11.260 called it a lie

00:28:12.060 even when

00:28:12.700 and then

00:28:13.300 until we knew

00:28:14.180 that and even

00:28:14.760 then it felt

00:28:15.360 uncomfortable

00:28:15.940 to say that word

00:28:17.140 you know

00:28:17.680 like he

00:28:18.620 knowingly

00:28:19.120 misled

00:28:19.560 felt more

00:28:20.060 comfortable

00:28:20.420 because the

00:28:21.060 news media

00:28:21.540 used to be

00:28:22.000 so reticent

00:28:22.800 to ascribe

00:28:24.500 that subjective

00:28:25.620 state of mind

00:28:26.600 to the person

00:28:27.560 speaking

00:28:28.000 especially when

00:28:28.640 it's the

00:28:28.900 president of

00:28:29.300 the United States

00:28:29.700 or the person

00:28:30.180 running to be

00:28:30.620 president of

00:28:30.980 the United States

00:28:31.380 in the case

00:28:31.760 of Hillary

00:28:32.100 and now we've

00:28:33.420 totally abandoned

00:28:34.100 that

00:28:34.460 and I know

00:28:34.880 in the book

00:28:35.220 you've got

00:28:35.460 a story

00:28:36.080 about

00:28:36.420 how

00:28:38.320 at some

00:28:39.260 point

00:28:39.900 somebody was

00:28:40.480 talking to you

00:28:41.060 about the number

00:28:41.720 of times

00:28:42.200 that Trump

00:28:42.840 had lied

00:28:43.700 this is during

00:28:44.360 his contest

00:28:44.840 against Hillary

00:28:45.500 and you

00:28:47.140 you pressed

00:28:47.820 for more detail

00:28:48.500 having covered

00:28:49.240 Hillary at length

00:28:50.360 and what happened

00:28:51.000 well this was

00:28:52.840 gosh I don't

00:28:54.860 want to say

00:28:55.140 her name

00:28:55.540 in case I

00:28:56.200 remember it

00:28:56.980 wrong

00:28:57.160 but this was

00:28:57.780 someone who

00:28:58.660 directed the

00:28:59.320 Politico coverage

00:29:00.300 at the time

00:29:00.980 and I was

00:29:01.880 interviewing her

00:29:02.640 at my show

00:29:03.180 Full Measure

00:29:03.680 about something

00:29:04.300 unrelated

00:29:04.740 about media

00:29:05.680 kind of what

00:29:07.120 was happening

00:29:07.480 with the media

00:29:08.580 and how they

00:29:09.560 got 2016

00:29:10.420 so wrong

00:29:11.220 and I wasn't

00:29:12.120 even talking

00:29:12.660 about Trump

00:29:13.260 in most of my

00:29:13.760 questions

00:29:14.140 these were really

00:29:15.040 media focused

00:29:15.740 and she

00:29:16.480 inserted things

00:29:17.680 about Trump

00:29:18.180 in every answer

00:29:18.780 she clearly

00:29:19.280 didn't like him

00:29:19.880 so she would

00:29:20.400 talk about

00:29:21.020 how bad Trump

00:29:22.040 is and how

00:29:22.620 much he lied

00:29:23.140 and she offered

00:29:23.960 in one of her

00:29:24.500 answers

00:29:24.900 that when they

00:29:26.760 were at Politico

00:29:27.380 and covering the

00:29:28.000 race

00:29:28.300 that they had

00:29:29.380 clocked

00:29:30.300 Trump

00:29:30.860 so many

00:29:31.420 lies

00:29:31.900 per second

00:29:32.880 or per minute

00:29:33.480 whatever it

00:29:34.020 was and she

00:29:34.560 gave me the

00:29:34.960 number

00:29:35.260 and my

00:29:36.060 natural question

00:29:36.860 which I think

00:29:37.320 would be yours

00:29:37.840 too was

00:29:39.140 well what was

00:29:40.040 Hillary's rate

00:29:41.100 of lies

00:29:41.700 per whatever

00:29:42.380 because she

00:29:42.960 had far

00:29:43.740 less time

00:29:44.340 on TV

00:29:45.560 and far

00:29:46.080 less availability

00:29:46.780 I just wondered

00:29:47.500 how you would

00:29:48.220 track both

00:29:49.660 of those things

00:29:50.320 and make them

00:29:50.860 comparable

00:29:51.340 and she said

00:29:52.840 to me

00:29:53.240 oh we didn't

00:29:54.100 have the staff

00:29:54.780 to do Hillary

00:29:55.380 too

00:29:55.720 and the notion

00:29:57.400 that anybody

00:29:58.220 at Politico

00:29:59.140 this is a

00:29:59.640 national

00:30:00.180 newsy

00:30:01.340 organization

00:30:02.020 that they

00:30:03.120 would have

00:30:03.500 an assignment

00:30:03.960 that says

00:30:04.460 track one

00:30:05.280 candidate's

00:30:06.020 lies

00:30:06.320 but not

00:30:06.760 the others

00:30:07.400 I just

00:30:08.200 think that's

00:30:08.660 a that's

00:30:09.500 a dead

00:30:09.760 giveaway

00:30:10.160 or what

00:30:11.820 about

00:30:12.080 remember

00:30:12.440 Benghazi

00:30:14.300 and Jay

00:30:16.500 what's his

00:30:16.920 name

00:30:17.140 who is the

00:30:17.760 White House

00:30:18.060 spokesperson

00:30:18.520 and Jay

00:30:21.660 Carney

00:30:21.920 and he's

00:30:23.540 now working

00:30:24.280 for I think

00:30:25.480 Amazon

00:30:25.800 for Jeff

00:30:26.380 Bezos

00:30:26.660 but anyway

00:30:27.200 Jay Carney

00:30:27.920 was up there

00:30:28.420 every other

00:30:28.780 night saying

00:30:29.400 we didn't

00:30:30.700 change any

00:30:31.140 words in

00:30:31.700 those Benghazi

00:30:32.220 talking points

00:30:32.740 we didn't

00:30:33.120 change what

00:30:33.480 we only

00:30:33.940 changed the

00:30:34.720 word consulate

00:30:35.680 to diplomatic

00:30:36.300 facility and

00:30:37.000 other than

00:30:37.280 that the

00:30:38.020 White House

00:30:38.400 did not

00:30:38.820 touch the

00:30:39.760 talking points

00:30:40.400 about Benghazi

00:30:41.320 that was a

00:30:42.100 diplomatic statement

00:30:43.040 we didn't

00:30:44.100 it was a lie

00:30:44.640 it was a total

00:30:45.740 lie because we

00:30:46.400 wound up seeing

00:30:47.000 the actual

00:30:47.520 earlier drafts

00:30:48.700 that had been

00:30:49.060 submitted to

00:30:49.520 the White House

00:30:49.960 and we saw

00:30:50.300 the White House

00:30:50.780 actual changes

00:30:51.580 and they

00:30:52.280 completely

00:30:52.980 manipulated

00:30:53.760 those talking

00:30:54.320 points

00:30:54.740 because they

00:30:56.140 were in a

00:30:56.420 panic about

00:30:57.340 what happened

00:30:58.740 in Benghazi

00:30:59.360 Libya and

00:30:59.880 how it made

00:31:00.500 the president

00:31:01.200 look and I

00:31:01.840 know you've

00:31:02.120 covered that

00:31:02.520 story that's

00:31:03.220 another one for

00:31:03.800 the record that

00:31:04.660 Cheryl's taken a

00:31:05.240 lot of shit

00:31:05.620 for because the

00:31:06.640 mainstream media

00:31:07.300 again wants to

00:31:08.100 paint her as

00:31:08.520 some lunatic

00:31:09.060 for rejecting

00:31:10.260 their mainstream

00:31:11.140 narrative about

00:31:12.040 Benghazi and

00:31:12.740 what did and

00:31:13.140 did not happen

00:31:13.760 and for the

00:31:14.200 record I'm

00:31:14.640 100% with you

00:31:15.480 and you're

00:31:15.700 reporting

00:31:16.060 well it's

00:31:17.380 interesting because

00:31:18.460 before they

00:31:19.480 controversialize

00:31:20.680 the subject

00:31:21.180 successfully it's

00:31:22.780 not controversial

00:31:23.480 in terms of

00:31:24.400 covering it and

00:31:25.440 I've seen this

00:31:25.960 time and again

00:31:26.680 with stories that

00:31:27.980 I've started that

00:31:29.740 everybody's on

00:31:31.000 board with it's

00:31:32.100 getting you know

00:31:32.840 initially very

00:31:34.120 people are very

00:31:35.000 interested and

00:31:36.040 then you see it

00:31:36.780 that somebody sees

00:31:38.060 that as a danger

00:31:38.860 or a risk and

00:31:39.640 they begin the

00:31:40.240 discrediting campaign

00:31:41.440 and they use again

00:31:42.800 the usual suspects

00:31:44.240 in the quasi news

00:31:45.060 media and the news

00:31:45.900 media they use

00:31:47.100 social media I

00:31:48.040 have shown emails

00:31:49.380 in some of my

00:31:51.020 last books the

00:31:51.820 discussions of

00:31:52.900 emails that we

00:31:53.480 found of

00:31:54.560 government officials

00:31:55.200 talking about

00:31:55.980 controversializing

00:31:57.140 me or my story

00:31:58.960 or another reporter

00:31:59.920 who's off the

00:32:00.480 narrative and how

00:32:01.040 they do it and

00:32:02.560 if if other

00:32:03.660 journalists or

00:32:04.460 other people in

00:32:05.040 our industry use

00:32:06.480 their brain a

00:32:07.080 little more often

00:32:07.680 they wouldn't

00:32:08.360 allow themselves to

00:32:09.060 be used that way

00:32:09.780 but unfortunately

00:32:10.480 they make it

00:32:11.660 pretty easy for

00:32:12.900 these narratives

00:32:13.980 to discredit

00:32:14.760 somebody who's

00:32:15.460 covering a story

00:32:16.300 that they actually

00:32:17.020 want to discredit

00:32:17.700 they make it

00:32:18.260 pretty easy to

00:32:19.120 happen when I

00:32:20.020 first started to

00:32:21.080 cover Benghazi I

00:32:22.220 was assigned to

00:32:22.840 cover that story

00:32:23.480 three weeks in at

00:32:24.320 CBS because they

00:32:25.660 thought there was

00:32:26.160 some news that

00:32:26.760 probably needed to

00:32:28.500 be unearthed and

00:32:29.220 we had a whole team

00:32:29.880 covering it and they

00:32:30.520 just hadn't been

00:32:31.080 able to dig

00:32:31.600 anything up so

00:32:32.940 three weeks in I

00:32:33.980 started and you

00:32:36.120 know the first thing

00:32:36.620 I want to do is

00:32:37.320 what's a timeline I

00:32:38.420 constantly start there

00:32:40.360 when I don't know

00:32:40.920 anything about a

00:32:41.480 story the timeline

00:32:42.720 started to be a

00:32:44.100 giveaway the things

00:32:44.920 they were keeping

00:32:45.380 secret not telling

00:32:46.340 us and gaps and

00:32:47.340 so on and

00:32:48.800 initially this was

00:32:49.920 very well received

00:32:51.220 at CBS this is

00:32:52.100 exactly what they

00:32:52.740 wanted me to do

00:32:53.540 even at the end

00:32:54.980 toward the end

00:32:55.700 when there were

00:32:56.660 certain people who

00:32:57.380 did not want that

00:32:58.240 story on television

00:32:59.460 many of my

00:33:00.760 colleagues and my

00:33:01.800 interim bosses the

00:33:03.320 medium bosses like in

00:33:04.320 the Washington Bureau

00:33:04.860 they love the

00:33:05.480 stories they were

00:33:06.100 trying to get them

00:33:06.700 on too it wasn't

00:33:07.980 everybody at CBS

00:33:09.060 that were keeping

00:33:09.640 them off there are

00:33:10.400 certain people and

00:33:11.480 we got so much

00:33:12.520 pushback on the

00:33:14.300 like you said

00:33:15.480 the changing

00:33:16.640 talking points

00:33:17.580 emails they were

00:33:19.300 lobbying CBS they

00:33:20.540 were coming to the

00:33:21.180 office they were

00:33:21.740 talking to the

00:33:22.260 bureau chief different

00:33:23.100 people from the

00:33:23.680 administration saying

00:33:25.100 none of it was

00:33:25.640 true and they had

00:33:27.140 to rein me in and

00:33:28.360 you know it's just

00:33:28.780 constant almost every

00:33:30.380 day there was some

00:33:31.260 sort of lobbying

00:33:31.880 effort in New York

00:33:33.320 and DC by the

00:33:34.400 White House and the

00:33:35.900 administration and

00:33:36.860 media matters and

00:33:37.640 everybody to try to

00:33:38.500 stop these stories

00:33:39.340 it's very like I

00:33:40.920 don't I don't even

00:33:41.520 mind that when your

00:33:42.260 bosses stand behind

00:33:43.200 you it's quite a

00:33:44.860 triumph when you

00:33:46.020 can get the stories

00:33:46.740 on and it's

00:33:47.460 wonderful when you

00:33:48.340 can get the

00:33:48.680 information out

00:33:49.320 despite these

00:33:49.960 powerful interests

00:33:50.620 that don't want

00:33:51.340 it out but when

00:33:52.560 certain bosses get

00:33:54.460 squiggly because

00:33:55.460 they're now bending

00:33:57.380 to these narratives

00:33:58.820 then you start to

00:34:00.180 feel like you know

00:34:01.680 if I'm going to do

00:34:02.380 this reporting that's

00:34:03.660 going to be under

00:34:04.120 attack by these

00:34:04.780 powerful people and

00:34:05.720 the bosses are going

00:34:06.560 to get squiggly then

00:34:07.960 how can I do it and

00:34:09.320 it got that way at

00:34:10.120 CBS about Benghazi

00:34:11.300 well that was a

00:34:12.260 situation where

00:34:13.220 Benghazi happened

00:34:14.340 that that terror

00:34:15.120 attack happened at

00:34:16.200 our embassy right

00:34:17.780 before the 2012

00:34:19.180 presidential contest

00:34:20.600 and Barack Obama

00:34:22.400 had been saying you

00:34:23.280 know what progress

00:34:23.900 he'd made in the

00:34:24.460 Middle East and how

00:34:25.240 his policy was

00:34:25.980 working and it

00:34:27.720 doesn't really advance

00:34:29.260 that narrative to

00:34:30.040 have the US

00:34:30.560 ambassador killed

00:34:32.080 in the in the

00:34:34.360 embassy or the

00:34:34.960 diplomatic facility

00:34:36.000 thanks to a

00:34:37.320 premeditated terror

00:34:38.180 attack that his

00:34:38.940 administration was

00:34:39.640 trying to tell us

00:34:40.200 it was all about a

00:34:40.780 video like I

00:34:41.900 remember this I

00:34:42.680 mean folks folks

00:34:43.600 forget but Susan

00:34:44.880 Rice was out there

00:34:45.680 it was all about the

00:34:46.500 video Hillary Clinton

00:34:47.380 it was about the

00:34:47.960 video and it was a

00:34:49.140 premeditated terror

00:34:50.940 attack that they kept

00:34:52.040 misleading us on and

00:34:53.880 the White House had

00:34:54.680 its hands directly in

00:34:55.960 it despite their

00:34:56.860 denials that they had

00:34:58.080 anything to do with

00:34:58.960 the messaging it was

00:35:00.480 really controversial and

00:35:01.920 it didn't help

00:35:02.640 President Obama which

00:35:03.940 showed why many in

00:35:05.080 the press wouldn't

00:35:06.160 report on it at all

00:35:07.180 and then needed to

00:35:08.940 dismiss diminish

00:35:11.000 anybody whether it

00:35:12.560 was Catherine

00:35:13.080 Herridge at Fox News

00:35:14.020 or you with a

00:35:16.260 contrary narrative

00:35:17.100 and good for CBS

00:35:18.360 back then for

00:35:19.280 standing by you and

00:35:20.520 CBS I don't my own

00:35:22.520 impression being

00:35:23.140 outside you know that

00:35:24.760 ecosystem now is that

00:35:25.980 CBS is not as bad as

00:35:28.280 like NBC and

00:35:30.520 certainly not as bad

00:35:31.220 as CNN but I don't

00:35:32.340 know I don't know how

00:35:33.400 it is today you know

00:35:35.300 more recently what

00:35:37.180 what are your

00:35:37.660 thoughts more

00:35:39.120 recently I can't say

00:35:40.620 but when I was

00:35:42.180 there it was for

00:35:43.480 most of my 20 years

00:35:44.420 I think it was

00:35:45.440 probably better than

00:35:46.840 as you say what we

00:35:48.640 saw going on at

00:35:49.440 NBC although all

00:35:51.440 the networks there

00:35:52.000 was a time until the

00:35:52.980 early 2000s we were

00:35:54.040 all doing the same

00:35:54.780 kind of good

00:35:55.340 reporting and

00:35:56.300 competing for these

00:35:57.180 stories that changed

00:35:58.720 in the mid 2000s

00:36:00.000 and I quit in 2014

00:36:02.600 it just got to be

00:36:03.620 outrageous but CBS

00:36:06.340 you know they even

00:36:08.180 when I left there

00:36:09.540 were still a lot of

00:36:10.900 middle managers and

00:36:11.920 some of the sort of

00:36:13.400 topish managers who

00:36:14.480 wanted this kind of

00:36:15.240 reporting they just

00:36:15.980 couldn't win the

00:36:16.640 fight with the few

00:36:18.240 people that got to

00:36:19.480 be influential there

00:36:20.940 was some upper

00:36:21.580 management changes

00:36:22.440 around this time

00:36:23.160 period before I left

00:36:24.280 that sealed the deal

00:36:25.720 I remember I had a

00:36:27.300 set of really three

00:36:28.500 excellent bosses in

00:36:29.660 terms of being able

00:36:30.440 to do investigative

00:36:31.760 reporting that was

00:36:32.560 unfettered where

00:36:33.220 they didn't tell me

00:36:33.780 what to do and they

00:36:35.120 just loved any good

00:36:36.700 investigative story

00:36:37.740 regardless of who it

00:36:38.720 went after and I

00:36:39.940 remember saying to my

00:36:40.600 husband when they were

00:36:41.240 putting all these on

00:36:41.960 TV you know he's like

00:36:43.600 I'm surprised to let

00:36:44.600 you do that sometimes

00:36:45.680 you know this reporting

00:36:47.020 that goes after X Y or

00:36:48.640 Z interest and I said

00:36:50.500 well I'm good as long

00:36:51.660 as all three of these

00:36:52.940 bosses don't all get

00:36:54.240 fired at one time and

00:36:55.320 what's the likelihood of

00:36:56.340 that ever happening

00:36:57.120 well all three of those

00:36:58.980 bosses left at were you

00:37:01.420 know moved at about one

00:37:02.660 time and that's when I

00:37:03.660 saw really the biggest

00:37:05.300 change and their

00:37:07.320 replacements just had

00:37:08.960 some people in there

00:37:10.120 that were able to

00:37:11.460 change how we did news

00:37:13.280 at CBS and I wasn't

00:37:14.180 the only one complaining

00:37:15.040 there were a lot of

00:37:15.980 about the time I was

00:37:17.120 trying to quit I tried

00:37:18.320 to quit a year before I

00:37:19.240 actually quit and I was

00:37:21.340 told by Jeff Fager who

00:37:23.940 I really like he was

00:37:25.060 chairman of the board and

00:37:26.140 the CBS at the time and

00:37:28.720 he told me look I know

00:37:29.780 we have a lot of

00:37:30.420 problems I didn't even

00:37:31.040 tell him why I was

00:37:31.580 trying to quit I just

00:37:32.380 didn't come in one day

00:37:33.820 I had taken all my

00:37:34.840 stuff out I didn't tell

00:37:35.940 my agent Richard because

00:37:37.440 I thought he'd try to

00:37:38.220 convince me not to and

00:37:39.900 I just said tell him I'm

00:37:40.740 not coming back there's

00:37:41.620 just the things have

00:37:42.760 changed too much in our

00:37:43.540 industry and I'm just

00:37:44.340 not gonna do this and

00:37:46.420 Jeff Fager told me you're

00:37:49.100 not the only one you

00:37:50.120 know there's so many

00:37:50.880 veterans who have

00:37:51.640 complained I understand we

00:37:52.900 have a problem I'm

00:37:53.760 trying to fix it it wasn't

00:37:55.660 just me it's just I

00:37:57.000 think I'm really one of

00:37:58.640 the only ones that was

00:37:59.440 in a position to and

00:38:00.820 able to walk away who

00:38:02.780 can walk away when

00:38:03.640 you've got kids in

00:38:04.360 college and bills to

00:38:05.260 pay from these really

00:38:06.260 lucrative jobs and I

00:38:08.140 knew at least I

00:38:08.980 thought who else is

00:38:10.620 gonna hire me you know

00:38:11.700 I had to be able to

00:38:12.360 walk away and know I

00:38:13.580 was walking away from

00:38:14.380 our industry at least in

00:38:15.500 my mind because if I

00:38:17.200 leave and write books

00:38:18.260 and talk about these

00:38:19.040 problems who's gonna

00:38:19.820 hire me can you just

00:38:21.180 give me the timeline on

00:38:22.080 yours at CNN and

00:38:23.120 yours at CBS and

00:38:24.220 then when you left I

00:38:25.240 was at CNN from 90 to

00:38:27.020 93 when it was a

00:38:28.580 really good news

00:38:29.140 organization during

00:38:30.020 Gulf War one I went

00:38:32.500 to CBS in into 93 or

00:38:36.200 so worked out of CBS

00:38:37.980 New York for a while

00:38:38.880 then got assigned to

00:38:39.920 CBS in DC and I

00:38:41.020 worked there from in

00:38:42.320 DC 95 until I quit in

00:38:44.060 2014 so I worked there

00:38:46.200 20 years 94 to 2014

00:38:48.800 and what I mean what

00:38:51.260 finally broke the

00:38:53.240 camel's back what was

00:38:54.820 the last straw in

00:38:56.120 leaving I think the

00:38:57.840 last straw was the

00:38:59.520 dreamliner fire the

00:39:01.940 dreamliner fire story if

00:39:03.580 you want to hear it and

00:39:04.320 this has a Fox News

00:39:05.380 tie CBS assigned me to

00:39:07.320 cover the dreamliner

00:39:08.000 fires look into them I

00:39:09.220 broke what was probably

00:39:10.600 a really landmark story

00:39:12.720 about it with a

00:39:13.540 whistleblower that

00:39:14.280 proved some important

00:39:16.020 things that a national

00:39:17.560 transportation safety

00:39:18.640 board official the

00:39:19.500 former head said was

00:39:21.040 the smoking gun it got

00:39:22.040 approved all the way up

00:39:22.820 the line legally approved

00:39:24.440 producers loved it it

00:39:26.180 never aired and it

00:39:27.540 never aired in my view

00:39:28.800 because some powerful

00:39:30.420 interest and I can only

00:39:31.700 assume it's Boeing

00:39:32.480 managed to step in and

00:39:33.980 kill the story and it

00:39:34.880 was such an important

00:39:35.700 story there was no

00:39:37.180 reason not to air it and

00:39:38.280 I wonder to this day if

00:39:39.460 we would have been able

00:39:40.740 to prevent some of

00:39:41.460 these this latest Boeing

00:39:43.440 problem with their with

00:39:45.260 their plane that happened

00:39:47.660 that had some of the

00:39:48.460 same complaints and

00:39:49.380 similarities that I

00:39:50.320 would have unearthed with

00:39:51.920 the dreamliner but the

00:39:52.800 story never aired but

00:39:54.720 when I when they killed

00:39:56.560 that story I said to my

00:39:57.700 bureau chief Chris

00:39:58.620 Isham and he said oh

00:40:00.640 that's this is a damn

00:40:01.600 shame you know I said I

00:40:03.620 don't see finishing out

00:40:04.440 my contract under these

00:40:05.460 circumstances it was just

00:40:06.600 the latest in a string of

00:40:07.780 things but this was a

00:40:08.620 really important one and

00:40:10.220 he said I know like he

00:40:11.380 understood so when I when

00:40:13.660 I did I cleaned out my I

00:40:15.060 took maybe six to eight

00:40:16.060 weeks cleaned out my office

00:40:17.680 got my husband on board

00:40:18.940 with idea of me leaving

00:40:20.260 my job yada yada when

00:40:22.260 I went in to quit CBS

00:40:24.340 tried to make me stay

00:40:25.960 and kind of bullied me

00:40:27.680 and to not tried to

00:40:29.020 bully me into not

00:40:29.640 quitting in other words

00:40:30.820 instead of locking me

00:40:31.940 out of my office they

00:40:32.820 were trying to lock me

00:40:33.660 in as my husband said

00:40:34.640 it was kind of funny

00:40:35.300 but as part of this

00:40:36.980 attack on me for

00:40:39.260 wanting to leave and

00:40:41.040 trying to convince me

00:40:41.920 to stay David Rose was

00:40:44.000 in charge of the news

00:40:44.760 division at the time and

00:40:46.440 he had come from from

00:40:47.820 Fox News I don't know

00:40:48.820 if he was there when

00:40:49.380 you were there yeah

00:40:50.420 yeah I know David so

00:40:52.160 I get ambushed as I go

00:40:54.080 for they're like okay

00:40:55.000 we'll let you out of

00:40:55.660 your contract if you

00:40:56.460 just come back for an

00:40:57.580 exit interview so I

00:40:59.380 came in and I got

00:41:00.260 ambushed by you know

00:41:02.280 business affairs guy

00:41:03.440 who'd flown down from

00:41:04.300 New York and the

00:41:05.720 bureau chief and they

00:41:06.380 started asking me why

00:41:07.720 I wanted to leave they

00:41:08.620 didn't understand I was

00:41:09.440 so upset and I was

00:41:11.020 very well respected and

00:41:12.460 why can't I stay but

00:41:14.000 as part of this

00:41:14.540 conversation they said

00:41:16.600 you know David Rose

00:41:17.660 still has contacts at

00:41:19.040 Fox News where he

00:41:19.880 used to work I said

00:41:20.880 so he said well David

00:41:23.660 Rose knows that when

00:41:24.980 the Dreamliner story

00:41:26.300 got killed you gave it

00:41:27.980 to Fox News and my

00:41:30.000 head starts spinning I

00:41:30.980 didn't know anybody at

00:41:31.840 Fox News I'd been on

00:41:32.900 O'Reilly's show a

00:41:33.700 couple times as

00:41:34.660 arranged by David

00:41:36.420 Rose I didn't even

00:41:37.180 have O'Reilly's phone

00:41:38.320 number or email I

00:41:39.420 didn't know anybody at

00:41:40.200 Fox News and they're

00:41:40.920 accusing me of giving

00:41:41.820 the killed story to

00:41:43.140 Fox totally false I

00:41:46.220 ended up getting a

00:41:46.880 lawyer and challenging

00:41:48.320 them like we're not

00:41:50.080 accusing you of

00:41:50.720 anything you know we

00:41:51.420 just want you to stay I

00:41:52.300 said oh you you accused

00:41:53.460 me of something yes you

00:41:54.480 did so I wrote about

00:41:56.560 this in the newest book

00:41:57.880 slanted and it's just

00:41:59.820 really sick and I kind

00:42:02.140 of my attorney tried to

00:42:03.040 make them investigate

00:42:03.900 where that tale came

00:42:05.580 from because in the end

00:42:06.620 they said oh never mind

00:42:08.480 you know we recognize it

00:42:09.840 was a mistake I said no I

00:42:11.180 want to find out how

00:42:12.780 this accusation this

00:42:14.600 false accusation got

00:42:16.340 made who told David

00:42:17.700 Rhodes that supposedly

00:42:18.760 and how did that get

00:42:20.040 mentioned to me at my

00:42:21.300 exit interview anyway

00:42:22.900 long story short after

00:42:24.120 all of this nightmare

00:42:24.980 and they're still trying

00:42:25.740 to force me to stay

00:42:26.780 Jeff Fager again tip

00:42:29.760 top of the news

00:42:30.340 division who hadn't

00:42:30.960 really been involved in

00:42:31.720 this calls me and

00:42:33.460 says can you fly up and

00:42:35.460 I flew up to see him and

00:42:36.720 he says listen I don't

00:42:38.640 know what all these

00:42:39.240 conversations have gone

00:42:40.200 on I don't know what's

00:42:40.980 been going on but can I

00:42:41.880 not get you to stay I'm

00:42:43.060 trying to fix things

00:42:44.120 and I said well how

00:42:47.120 long and he said if you

00:42:48.400 give me six months and I

00:42:50.720 haven't greatly fixed a

00:42:52.140 lot of the problems and

00:42:53.540 you still want to get out

00:42:54.380 of your contract we'll

00:42:55.160 talk about letting you

00:42:55.920 go so I stayed another

00:42:57.620 year just because I was

00:42:59.160 weary of trying to get

00:43:00.220 out of the contract I

00:43:01.100 was walking away with

00:43:01.880 nothing I didn't ask for

00:43:02.840 severance I was just

00:43:03.900 walking away but it was

00:43:05.740 such a miserable horrible

00:43:07.020 experience one

00:43:07.900 conversation before this

00:43:09.220 David Rose had told my

00:43:11.520 agent or my attorney

00:43:13.020 they'd let me out of my

00:43:14.540 contract if I signed

00:43:15.820 something that agreed

00:43:16.720 anytime I mentioned CBS

00:43:18.360 News the rest of my life

00:43:19.780 in any context I'd have

00:43:21.480 to pay them a hundred

00:43:22.140 thousand dollars and

00:43:23.800 they were just saying

00:43:24.440 ridiculous ridiculous

00:43:25.900 stuff even non

00:43:27.280 derogatory mentions

00:43:28.420 right like if I were

00:43:29.200 teaching a class at

00:43:30.160 University of Florida

00:43:31.020 and said I used to work

00:43:32.020 at CBS News I'd have to

00:43:33.280 pay them a hundred

00:43:33.720 thousand dollars

00:43:34.420 wow I mean they all

00:43:35.940 try to get you to sign

00:43:36.820 non disparagements and

00:43:38.380 you know Fox News

00:43:39.760 tried to get me to sign

00:43:40.560 a non disparagement

00:43:41.160 when I left on very

00:43:41.960 good terms and I

00:43:42.700 wouldn't just because I

00:43:45.420 wasn't planning on

00:43:46.100 disparaging them but I'm

00:43:47.080 I was definitely planning

00:43:48.020 on just telling the

00:43:48.620 truth about them and

00:43:49.320 we've been fine you

00:43:50.200 know they they haven't

00:43:51.000 given me a hard time

00:43:51.740 I've said some unkind

00:43:52.840 things about them that

00:43:53.680 are true and some kind

00:43:55.220 things about them that

00:43:55.960 are true and and

00:43:56.780 they've been grown-ups

00:43:58.020 about it they understand

00:43:58.880 what I mean of course

00:43:59.720 the lawyers are always

00:44:00.460 going to try to get you

00:44:01.120 to waive your rights but

00:44:02.060 I wouldn't and then

00:44:03.740 I'll just leave what

00:44:05.160 happened at my next

00:44:05.960 employer up to people's

00:44:07.060 imagination but I've

00:44:09.280 never heard anything like

00:44:10.080 that I've never heard

00:44:11.140 anything like that well

00:44:12.620 my my attorney was like

00:44:13.880 that's just crazy nobody

00:44:15.140 would ever he's not

00:44:16.200 even saying rational

00:44:17.680 things that's no one's

00:44:19.160 ever discussed anything

00:44:20.060 like that or had any

00:44:21.040 kind of severance like

00:44:23.220 that and I didn't sign a

00:44:25.320 non disparagement either

00:44:26.200 and I was told you will

00:44:27.880 they will never never

00:44:29.240 never let you out of

00:44:30.160 your contract without you

00:44:32.040 signing a non

00:44:32.720 disparagement and see

00:44:34.180 disparagement part of the

00:44:35.860 problem with that is it's

00:44:36.900 in the eye of the

00:44:37.480 beholder you know what is

00:44:39.220 disparagement they could

00:44:40.040 just say anything you

00:44:40.980 say the rest of your life

00:44:41.960 is disparagement so I

00:44:43.940 said I said I'm never

00:44:46.020 never never going to sign

00:44:47.160 one of those things and

00:44:48.280 they can't make me if I'm

00:44:49.660 not asking for things if

00:44:50.780 I'm asking for money if

00:44:51.920 they're going to pay me a

00:44:52.720 departure fee that's one

00:44:54.960 thing but I didn't want to

00:44:55.860 exactly and we ended up

00:44:57.640 like you we parted on good

00:45:00.280 terms in the end I got a

00:45:01.400 very nice note from Jeff

00:45:02.460 Fager the day that I quit

00:45:04.480 you know my last day and

00:45:06.880 I'm still on good terms

00:45:07.820 with him and you know it

00:45:09.860 was not it was not a

00:45:10.940 horribly unpleasant thing

00:45:12.380 by the time I left I was

00:45:13.920 just very glad to get out

00:45:15.380 and not feel like I was

00:45:16.840 being forced so many of

00:45:17.880 my stories were killed the

00:45:19.320 last year I was there I

00:45:20.460 actually got like I think

00:45:21.860 four or five Emmy

00:45:23.300 nominations and two Emmy

00:45:24.540 awards I had a good year

00:45:26.560 I got a lot of news on but

00:45:28.140 a lot of really important

00:45:29.280 stories that people don't

00:45:31.060 know about never made in and

00:45:32.700 were killed and that's what

00:45:33.600 was just making me really

00:45:34.980 suffer so what's it does

00:45:38.400 your do you have does

00:45:39.220 your husband have a good

00:45:39.920 job I mean why were you

00:45:41.160 able to walk away well my

00:45:42.640 husband's retired but we

00:45:45.020 just have one daughter she

00:45:46.240 was finishing college you

00:45:47.920 know we manage our money

00:45:49.320 wisely and I he and I he

00:45:51.960 didn't want me to leave by

00:45:52.820 the way what he's like why

00:45:53.640 can't you just go there and

00:45:54.680 do nothing because they

00:45:55.460 would have been happy if I

00:45:56.720 didn't come in every day and

00:45:57.620 done nothing honestly and I

00:45:58.860 I said it's just it's like

00:46:01.100 it's not in my DNA like most

00:46:02.800 people enjoy their jobs

00:46:04.340 don't want to go to work

00:46:05.180 and do nothing that's

00:46:05.980 torture but we talked

00:46:08.940 about I you know we would

00:46:09.920 have to at some point

00:46:11.480 lower our standard of

00:46:12.360 living which is fine you

00:46:13.560 know I mean I'm okay with

00:46:14.720 all of that and I had to

00:46:15.560 I had to get him to be

00:46:16.600 okay with it too you know

00:46:18.400 but we've we've been

00:46:19.200 smart with the money we've

00:46:20.200 earned because I know I'm

00:46:21.740 super lucky to be in this

00:46:23.640 business and I know the

00:46:24.840 money doesn't last

00:46:25.660 forever they pay you very

00:46:27.040 well but it's not

00:46:28.420 necessarily for a long

00:46:29.460 time you're not going to

00:46:30.420 do this when I'm 70

00:46:31.720 probably so I don't know

00:46:33.700 we've made good decisions

00:46:34.600 and just having the one

00:46:35.480 child that was almost

00:46:36.280 finished with college

00:46:37.220 enabled us to be able to

00:46:38.640 make that decision but

00:46:41.240 then Sinclair offered me a

00:46:43.320 job this is an independent

00:46:44.880 company and I make more

00:46:47.540 money now than I ever did

00:46:49.300 so you know it wasn't I

00:46:51.060 tried it just I just lucked

00:46:52.780 out so we're doing okay

00:46:54.060 well also because cream

00:46:55.840 rises to the top it just

00:46:57.200 does I keep seeing this you

00:46:59.340 know as whatever Matt

00:47:01.060 Taibbi as he created his

00:47:02.740 own column on Substack and

00:47:04.180 and sort of walked away and

00:47:05.120 Glenn Greenwald is doing

00:47:06.120 the same now and Barry

00:47:06.880 Weiss left the New York

00:47:07.560 Times all these people

00:47:08.420 either are doing better

00:47:09.860 than they were or are

00:47:10.840 about to and you can see

00:47:11.740 it very very clearly I

00:47:14.280 mean I would say even in

00:47:15.000 my own case I I'm not

00:47:16.960 getting paid more in this

00:47:18.780 job than I was in my last

00:47:20.140 job just because I had

00:47:20.980 reached the very very top

00:47:21.960 of the cable news and news

00:47:23.340 industry in terms of

00:47:24.220 broadcast but I don't give

00:47:26.220 a shit you know I have

00:47:26.920 never been motivated by the

00:47:28.080 money I walked away from a

00:47:29.060 very very lucrative law job

00:47:30.520 for a job that paid 17

00:47:31.780 grand a year in TV I

00:47:33.200 don't care what I care

00:47:34.340 about is my own a

00:47:35.660 editorial freedom and be

00:47:38.060 my ethical compass you

00:47:39.580 know and I hear the same

00:47:41.560 in you it doesn't always

00:47:42.760 work out between you and

00:47:44.260 the press the way people

00:47:45.480 portray you and so on and

00:47:46.980 it does you don't always

00:47:47.780 have universal friendships

00:47:50.560 right you can wind up

00:47:51.900 making some enemies along

00:47:53.040 the way if you if you

00:47:54.080 pursue those goals but you

00:47:56.060 can sleep at night you can

00:47:57.200 look at yourself in the

00:47:58.060 mirror and you can look at

00:47:58.860 your children and know you

00:48:00.540 know you you did what you

00:48:01.480 thought was right more

00:48:03.540 with Cheryl in a moment

00:48:04.380 we're going to get into

00:48:05.100 the me too movement and

00:48:06.760 what the media did in the

00:48:08.840 course of that and

00:48:09.460 whether it jumped the

00:48:11.020 shark right whether it is

00:48:13.080 still viable post Kavanaugh

00:48:15.580 post Tara Reade and Biden

00:48:17.360 which is an interesting

00:48:19.420 exchange but first before we

00:48:21.360 get to that let's talk

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00:49:54.780 we're going to get right back to

00:49:55.760 Cheryl but first we're going to

00:49:56.540 bring you a feature we do on the

00:49:57.640 show called asked and answered

00:49:59.660 where executive producer Steve

00:50:01.440 Krakauer comes in with the asked

00:50:03.640 half of the equation hey Steve

00:50:05.740 hey Megan yes we are getting lots of

00:50:07.720 great questions that are coming in

00:50:08.920 at questions at devil may care

00:50:11.460 media dot com but we are also

00:50:13.560 compiling questions that come in from

00:50:15.460 our social media accounts so at

00:50:17.280 Megan Kelly show Twitter Facebook

00:50:18.840 Instagram we're also getting your

00:50:21.240 questions there so if you have a

00:50:22.360 question ask them follow us on on

00:50:24.380 all the social media platforms this

00:50:25.640 one came from Instagram thought it

00:50:27.040 was a good one how can we keep our

00:50:28.400 children sane in this insane world

00:50:30.620 well don't let them watch the news

00:50:32.060 that's for sure I almost never let my

00:50:35.280 kids watch the news I don't trust it

00:50:36.820 I think it's going to like they've

00:50:38.300 gotten too quick to report awful

00:50:42.840 stories without an appreciation for

00:50:44.620 who might be watching you know it's

00:50:46.600 like it's the way I feel when I'm

00:50:48.060 sort of sometimes surfing the net I

00:50:51.240 love Jonathan Turley he's a legal

00:50:52.680 commentator and I love his blog

00:50:54.520 Jonathan Turley dot org but one thing

00:50:56.660 I don't like about Jonathan Turley's

00:50:58.020 blog this is just one example is he he's

00:51:00.400 an animal lover so he's constantly

00:51:01.880 posting stories about animal cruelty

00:51:04.340 and there's no warning so you hear you

00:51:06.720 you've read the hideous thing that's

00:51:08.460 been done to somebody or something

00:51:09.940 without willingly taking in that

00:51:13.220 information and you can't unsee it

00:51:15.000 you know your mind brings you there

00:51:16.140 and you don't want it and it's

00:51:17.540 jarring and the news media does the

00:51:20.180 same I mean they very loosely talk

00:51:22.300 about school shootings and massive

00:51:24.260 deaths and crime attacks murders and

00:51:27.400 so on in a way that is not sensitive

00:51:30.100 to children and I just I don't want my

00:51:32.520 kids watching the news I also think in

00:51:34.880 this time of COVID this is my own

00:51:37.060 personal judgment every parent makes a

00:51:38.420 different decision and that's fine but

00:51:40.080 for me we have played COVID way down

00:51:42.720 with our kids you know in no way were

00:51:45.580 we like it's a pandemic and you know

00:51:48.320 people are dying and you know hand

00:51:50.940 sanitize hand sanitize and wash your

00:51:52.760 hands we've been like look it's not

00:51:54.960 good it's a virus they're gonna come up

00:51:56.980 with a cure and for now we got to do

00:51:58.840 our part to keep people safe but we're

00:52:00.580 good we're all together and you know

00:52:02.700 just wash your hands and do this and

00:52:04.100 hand sanitizer before you you know

00:52:05.980 whatever go into this group and you'll

00:52:08.560 be fine and that's as much as we've

00:52:10.500 telegraphed because I do believe kids

00:52:12.240 really pick up on your attitude and

00:52:14.700 you know this don't you you know like

00:52:16.560 somebody hysterical in your

00:52:18.100 neighborhood or in your school and

00:52:19.820 their kids are super nervous and you

00:52:21.560 can see they're turning into little

00:52:22.880 neurotics what apple doesn't fall far

00:52:25.800 from the tree so don't be a tree like

00:52:27.680 that right like you got to be calm and

00:52:31.000 unless you're a really great actor

00:52:32.800 actress you have to actually be calm

00:52:35.580 right so like if you find yourself

00:52:38.160 being that person try not to be try to

00:52:40.140 calm yourself down and the same thing

00:52:43.400 to be honest about like school

00:52:44.780 shootings I hate to even talk about

00:52:46.700 them out loud but we don't talk to our

00:52:50.000 kids about those I don't I don't think

00:52:52.320 there's any reason for them to spend

00:52:53.740 time thinking about them God forbid

00:52:55.360 something were to happen the school

00:52:57.740 would do what it could to take care of

00:52:59.860 all the children but I just think

00:53:01.440 letting those kinds of news stories

00:53:03.760 rent space in your kids heads is very

00:53:06.620 damaging for them and I just don't

00:53:09.040 think there's any reason to keep

00:53:10.120 putting all that bad information in

00:53:11.540 there they have to worry about

00:53:12.840 bullying they have to worry about

00:53:14.680 crossing the street safely there's a

00:53:16.520 lot they actually do need to worry

00:53:18.000 about and I actually don't think these

00:53:20.120 things are so much on the list so I

00:53:22.480 think the more you can project you are

00:53:23.980 safe and you are well and this is not a

00:53:26.560 world full of bad things trying to get

00:53:28.400 you in fact it's a wonderful world

00:53:29.880 that offers lots of soft spaces to fall

00:53:32.160 and when you encounter difficulty mom

00:53:35.400 will help dad will help God will help

00:53:38.700 the better off you and your children

00:53:42.080 will be okay so as Steve said

00:53:45.000 questions plural at devilmaycaremedia.com

00:53:49.080 if if you want to participate or what

00:53:51.700 are our Twitter handles again I do go to

00:53:53.260 our Twitter account Steve it's the at

00:53:55.120 the Megan Kelly show right yeah at

00:53:57.120 Megan Kelly show on all platforms no the

00:54:00.020 no need for the the well but yes

00:54:02.200 Facebook Instagram Twitter all social

00:54:05.000 media platforms at Megan Kelly show

00:54:06.560 well and what's nice about social

00:54:07.780 media where I do go sometimes for the

00:54:09.660 show is I can respond to you if you

00:54:12.040 make a comment on the Apple reviews

00:54:14.040 which I do like I am still reading

00:54:15.440 them but I can't respond so many times

00:54:17.240 I want to respond you know to something

00:54:18.880 like someone's like screw you I'm like

00:54:20.880 screw you too no that's not what

00:54:22.560 happens it's actually quite lovely and I

00:54:26.140 want to respond nicely but I can't in

00:54:28.600 fact I was asking my team isn't there

00:54:29.940 way I can do it like whatever I do I

00:54:31.800 have to put my real email in there is

00:54:33.120 it gonna show up but apparently they

00:54:34.840 don't they don't allow it I don't know

00:54:36.700 you can't do it so go to the go to

00:54:38.080 Insta or go to Twitter or Facebook and

00:54:40.520 we can chat there by the way shout out

00:54:42.300 to Instagram and Facebook because the

00:54:43.900 comments we get there are so much nicer

00:54:46.300 and more substantive than we get on

00:54:48.140 Twitter I will say and I'm a big Twitter

00:54:49.880 addict and so I'm not you know I'm you

00:54:52.840 know I don't take my advice on it but

00:54:54.580 but yeah Instagram and Facebook have

00:54:56.220 been getting some great comments there so

00:54:58.120 thank you to the people who are following

00:54:59.500 us on those platforms especially I think

00:55:01.720 it's Bridget Phetasy who says Twitter is

00:55:04.940 like the middle school bullies that's

00:55:07.300 where you go the middle school bullies

00:55:08.540 wind up living on Twitter and for some

00:55:11.000 reason we've chosen to immerse ourselves

00:55:12.660 in their presence forever but Instagram

00:55:16.880 and Facebook are much nicer and actually

00:55:18.640 you can you can say more so anyway we'd

00:55:20.500 love to hear from you guys there or

00:55:22.320 anywhere and now back to Cheryl I think

00:55:28.380 what you're saying is coming more to

00:55:30.380 light not just media bias everybody knows

00:55:32.420 about that but legacy media caving to

00:55:36.080 pressure elite pressure from the outside

00:55:39.440 not to cover a major story and this

00:55:42.100 year's biggest example was the ABC

00:55:45.240 reporting on Jeffrey Epstein which you

00:55:48.940 know that I got really interested in

00:55:50.680 that because a I thought I've been

00:55:52.220 following the Epstein case like

00:55:53.380 everybody but be the the gal Ashley

00:55:57.040 Bianco who was a tech she was a producer

00:56:00.520 low-level at ABC was in the control

00:56:05.080 room when Amy Robach went off about how

00:56:08.140 ABC had killed her reporting that she had

00:56:10.120 this story five years ago she had

00:56:11.640 everybody she had Virginia Roberts who

00:56:13.180 was the chief complainant against Epstein

00:56:15.180 and the woman who really brought him

00:56:16.260 down she had it on camera and ABC

00:56:19.440 wouldn't let her report it and and

00:56:21.380 somebody told little Ashley Bianco who

00:56:24.100 is really you know with respect to her

00:56:26.340 just a minion to mark the tape in the

00:56:28.880 system because that somebody behind the

00:56:30.440 scenes knew it was a it was quite a

00:56:31.840 moment and frankly as talent you tell me

00:56:34.000 what you think I think Amy Robach knew

00:56:35.800 100% what she was doing we all do when we

00:56:38.560 have a mic on and I think she was laying

00:56:41.120 the foundation for somebody to do what

00:56:43.280 somebody at BC wound up doing anyway

00:56:45.340 someone other than Ashley wound up leaking

00:56:47.840 the tape and PS Ashley by that point

00:56:50.340 had moved to CBS she admitted she had

00:56:51.900 marked it but that she hadn't been the

00:56:53.420 one who released it and they fired her

00:56:54.940 ass anyway which was totally wrong

00:56:56.400 anyway that whole thing shined a light on

00:57:00.280 how it works why did the Epstein story

00:57:02.880 get killed when you got a guy who's

00:57:04.960 appears to be a serial predator very young

00:57:08.000 women if not underage women it's stories

00:57:12.160 involving Prince Andrew Bill Clinton at a

00:57:15.840 time when his wife was running for

00:57:17.320 president I mean it's just as plain as

00:57:19.480 the nose on your face if you care to see

00:57:21.000 the truth well I call I address that in a

00:57:24.360 chapter I think I called or subtitled when

00:57:26.780 narratives collide because this is sort of

00:57:30.660 a me-too narrative the original story is

00:57:32.620 something the press should have loved but

00:57:34.980 on the other hand it fought other

00:57:36.920 narratives they did not want to for

00:57:38.500 whatever reason go after certain powerful

00:57:40.020 interests what do you do when a narrative

00:57:42.360 you should like collides with something

00:57:44.600 else you don't really want to report

00:57:46.160 and I think the hallmark fingerprints of

00:57:51.360 how this all works is in the fact that

00:57:53.200 when this came to light people instead of

00:57:56.500 being outraged that so outraged that the

00:57:58.860 story was killed I mean some were but the

00:58:00.840 dominant narrative became how it was leaked

00:58:04.080 and how you know this this wasn't true it

00:58:07.340 just wasn't a good story in the beginning

00:58:09.080 it just didn't have all the verification

00:58:10.740 they needed I mean that's just when you

00:58:14.120 see them go after whoever they are the

00:58:16.800 the reporter or the producer that they

00:58:18.800 said leaked and they act like that's the

00:58:20.300 bigger transgression than the thing you

00:58:23.300 know the actual thing that the person

00:58:24.560 blew the whistle on you know that people

00:58:27.660 are pushing something and they're pushing

00:58:29.640 a narrative and that there's these other

00:58:31.520 interests pulling strings it was so crazy

00:58:34.460 and the real leaker actually came out to

00:58:37.620 James O'Keefe and said without identifying

00:58:39.840 him or herself I am the leaker and this is

00:58:42.300 BS what they're doing to Ashley she didn't

00:58:44.280 have anything to do with it you know she

00:58:45.540 marked the tape in the system because

00:58:47.200 somebody told her to but I'm the one who

00:58:48.680 put it out there and this person's terrified

00:58:50.300 to identify because of course they're going

00:58:51.980 to get fired if they do and they still let

00:58:55.140 her twist and and this girl as far as I

00:58:58.360 know has not gotten another job but I

00:58:59.900 think she's suing them so smart get the

00:59:02.640 lawyers involved that's what I would have

00:59:03.800 done too what do you think about you

00:59:06.740 know you talk about when narratives

00:59:09.160 collide the Me Too movement and what

00:59:12.680 happened to Brett Kavanaugh because I

00:59:14.980 know you you covered this and we have

00:59:16.900 similar feelings obviously I have a

00:59:18.660 different sort of role in the Me Too

00:59:19.920 movement which I have no problem with

00:59:21.860 but when I saw what happened to Brett

00:59:24.800 Kavanaugh my stomach turned I thought it

00:59:27.300 was disgusting I thought it was

00:59:28.740 predictable but I thought that the the

00:59:31.300 the people the press that were promoting

00:59:34.880 people like Julie Swetnick killed the

00:59:39.000 Me Too movement they killed it because

00:59:41.440 they are putting out these false accusers

00:59:43.460 who they were obviously false accusers

00:59:44.980 and yelling at all of us that we had to

00:59:46.940 believe all women or we weren't in

00:59:48.320 support of women and it was obviously

00:59:50.240 political and the press pushed it they

00:59:53.000 published those claims on without any

00:59:57.360 reservations right without any

00:59:59.040 reservations well and they did it

01:00:02.020 because it served what the interest

01:00:04.740 that the press was serving one of this

01:00:07.000 stuff out regardless of what it was

01:00:09.880 doing at the time then to the movement

01:00:11.440 because I agree with you when you start

01:00:13.320 putting false accusations or

01:00:15.000 uncorroborated accusations out there and

01:00:16.780 giving them such credence it hurts

01:00:18.480 everybody it hurts the true accusations

01:00:20.200 but think about the lack of

01:00:22.380 verification and in fact the

01:00:24.760 contradictory information that the press

01:00:26.900 had or could have had if they had lifted

01:00:29.480 a finger to even ask certain questions

01:00:31.700 and how they went to town on this man

01:00:34.540 versus what they expect in an

01:00:37.820 allegation against Trump which is you

01:00:40.520 know anything I guess it's on the same

01:00:43.640 I'm arguing the same side almost nothing

01:00:46.060 is expected in terms of verification if

01:00:48.340 it's against the right people and in this

01:00:49.960 case it's Kavanaugh it's also against

01:00:52.060 Trump but if you look at it the other

01:00:54.180 way no accusation is good enough if it's

01:00:57.340 against the wrong person let's say

01:00:59.140 Biden it doesn't matter what verification

01:01:01.360 you have or witnesses or background or

01:01:04.760 data they say none of that's good enough

01:01:06.560 so exactly that's when the narratives

01:01:09.020 collide when Tara Reid came forward

01:01:12.260 right right that's when the narratives

01:01:14.180 collided when Tara Reid came forward and

01:01:16.100 suddenly believe all women was what what

01:01:18.120 woman what well depends I don't know it's

01:01:20.120 situational some women lie which those of

01:01:22.220 us who are fair had been saying all along

01:01:24.520 we don't get a truth-telling gene with

01:01:27.200 our ovaries you know we're human we can

01:01:29.840 lie just like men can and there have been

01:01:31.680 many examples where women do I think in

01:01:34.800 most cases women alleging sexual assault

01:01:38.080 or harassment are truth-tellers but

01:01:40.100 certainly not in all and you know they

01:01:43.680 their their principles were exposed when

01:01:45.560 we got to the Joe Biden case and what

01:01:47.160 compare what they did to Tara Reid versus

01:01:49.880 what they did to Christine Blasey Ford who

01:01:51.960 wound up on the cover of Time magazine

01:01:53.520 well I did a chapter on me to being

01:01:57.700 weaponized it's this very theme that in

01:02:01.780 the environment in which I agree with you

01:02:04.040 most women in general probably aren't

01:02:06.140 making up accusations but because of that

01:02:09.100 dishonest women have learned in this

01:02:11.940 environment they can come forward and make

01:02:13.680 up accusations and they'll get traction and

01:02:16.040 I profiled as I call the weaponization of the

01:02:18.320 Me Too movement what happened to Jeff

01:02:20.960 Fager again talking about CBS in that dust

01:02:24.520 up over all of their sexual harassment

01:02:27.320 claims and sexual abuse claims and how he

01:02:29.400 got swept in in my view and in the view of

01:02:31.840 some others at CBS who spoke to me because

01:02:34.400 it was a good opportunity to get him for

01:02:36.620 other reasons to kind of sweep him up in

01:02:39.600 these charges that were not true and that

01:02:41.540 were widely reported and I talk about a man

01:02:44.560 named Trevor Fitzgibbon who was falsely accused

01:02:47.600 of rape for God's sake he was a operating a

01:02:51.400 liberal PR firm used to work at Media Matters

01:02:53.640 by the way but an honest guy true believer and

01:02:56.580 he was a Bernie Sanders supporter represented

01:03:00.300 Julian Assange Bradley Manning and some other

01:03:03.220 characters who are controversial among the

01:03:05.760 left who aren't quite sure what to do with

01:03:07.960 those people and because of that he theorizes

01:03:11.960 perhaps this is why he was targeted with a

01:03:14.380 smear campaign involving Me Too that destroyed

01:03:18.100 his company destroyed his life again got accused

01:03:20.740 of false rape accusations that were later

01:03:22.840 disproven and dropped and you know of course he

01:03:26.180 was cleared and the victim he sued the alleged

01:03:28.680 victim he sued and she had to apologize but his

01:03:31.760 life's destroyed and I talk about that kind of how

01:03:34.760 that came down in one of the chapters that's a you

01:03:37.960 know that again the media not doing its job took

01:03:41.220 the ball and takes the ball in some of these cases

01:03:43.420 because it's on point with whatever someone's trying

01:03:46.060 to push and attacks and vilifies and ruins people

01:03:49.480 without proper evidence and then moves on to the

01:03:52.840 next thing and there's never any repercussions for

01:03:54.680 that well what about on Fager and I don't I don't know

01:03:58.360 the facts on Fager I read what I remember is there

01:04:01.000 was a story brewing about him they were looking into

01:04:03.540 it and then he sent a threatening email to a

01:04:06.640 correspondent there Jerrica I just remember her

01:04:12.500 coming up she read it on the air and it was

01:04:15.700 definitely an inappropriate email he was basically

01:04:18.100 like Jerrica Duncan said that she was he basically

01:04:22.360 said others who have reported on me something like

01:04:26.340 have lived to regret it and I'd be very careful if I

01:04:29.220 were you unless you make this all your own reporting

01:04:31.080 and it was clearly a threat coming from a guy in that

01:04:33.620 position and that's why CBS said it fired him not not

01:04:36.260 because of the me too allegations right but if you look if

01:04:40.500 you google his name he's now listed falsely among a group

01:04:45.720 of predators he's listed with Jeffrey Epstein if you google

01:04:48.700 like I don't know me too predators his name is in there and

01:04:51.640 that was the you know I'm not defending and he doesn't defend

01:04:54.920 writing the text messages that got him fired that appeared

01:05:00.160 threatening to that reporter so that's a separate issue but just

01:05:03.680 because someone does that doesn't mean they're a sexual predator which

01:05:08.360 is an entirely different thing to destroy someone's life and act as

01:05:12.380 though they're a sexual predator and and he what he was upset about was he

01:05:16.580 had falsely been wrapped up in claims a lot of different claims about kind of

01:05:21.820 boss he was but I thought the most damaging ones were he was never accused

01:05:26.340 of any kind of sexual assault um and there was like a one anonymous claim of

01:05:32.920 patting a girl on the butt like welcome to 60 minutes that was it and again I'm

01:05:38.560 not saying that's appropriate well there was some I mean listen I don't

01:05:41.920 want to disparage Jeff because I I haven't done my own independent reporting on

01:05:46.140 but I remember reading a report in the Washington Post by the reporters who

01:05:49.520 were looking into Fager saying something like at a that he had said to a young

01:05:53.920 producer or something like go ahead and grab my crotch I'm hung like a horse I

01:05:58.700 mean it was you know and I don't I don't remember whether they actually reported

01:06:03.040 that because they were they reported that allegation in a story about how their

01:06:08.780 reporting had been stifled that's what they were saying so with respect to Fager I

01:06:13.560 assume he would deny this I assume he would say it's not true but I think it was

01:06:17.960 more than just you know a passing benign comment that he that they were working

01:06:23.000 on in the story against him well people can read the chapter and make of it what

01:06:27.980 you will I guess my point is and I made the same point with the Trevor Fitzgibbon

01:06:32.740 case and some people may not like this point Trevor Fitzgibbon the PR man I

01:06:36.900 mentioned he acknowledges he was inappropriate with female colleagues but he

01:06:42.960 didn't rape anybody one is a an offense that could get you fired or get you

01:06:49.440 human resources counseling another is something that could get you prosecute

01:06:53.200 prosecuted and put in prison and as bad as people may think one thing is to mix

01:06:59.620 one or conflate one with the other which is what happens too often and is easy to do

01:07:05.080 in this environment is a very damaging and dangerous thing and that's what's that's

01:07:10.140 what's happening to some people where it's very easy to lob a criminal

01:07:13.920 accusation against somebody and the press because of these other accusations

01:07:18.320 floating around about inappropriate behavior it all gets conflated and reported and

01:07:24.640 repeated and before you know it you know you're destroyed as a predator as a rapist

01:07:30.900 when you were never accused of that you know in Fager's case well of course in the

01:07:36.100 case of me too in the case of what we're saying seeing right now with this sort of

01:07:40.560 woke war on anybody who says something perceived by some unknown gods to be

01:07:47.120 racially insensitive or insensitive to trans people you know you could go down

01:07:51.060 the list we're seeing similar things which is of course it depends on who's

01:07:55.220 being accused how interested the media is and I don't just mean fame it doesn't

01:07:59.920 matter degree of fame I'm talking about politics you know there was a lawsuit

01:08:03.960 filed against some people at Fox including in passing Tucker Carlson saying

01:08:09.560 Tucker had allegedly asked this frequently appearing guest on the show to come

01:08:13.480 back to his hotel room then Tucker comes out with evidence that the night that

01:08:17.540 she's listed in her complaint he was with his wife it was the night of his

01:08:21.720 Christmas party or it was something he had proof that he couldn't have done it and

01:08:26.140 wouldn't have done it the media reported about this like he was Harvey Weinstein

01:08:30.300 and then you look at Don Lemon over at CNN who has a person in a bar who says Don

01:08:37.960 Lemon shoved his hands down the front of his pants and his underwear rubbed his own

01:08:41.800 genitals and then rubbed this guy's face in a bar in front of other people and

01:08:46.380 produced a bartender who says I was an eyewitness to it I'm embarrassed because I

01:08:52.160 wound up giving the guy it happened to a hard time kind of joking with him like hey

01:08:56.820 look what happened to you and didn't realize how traumatic this was to this

01:09:00.600 guy Don Lemon denies it same as you know Tucker denied his too no one's even read

01:09:05.840 about it no one has any interest in it even though this guy has an eyewitness

01:09:09.500 who's come forward on the record like to me I'm not saying either one is true or

01:09:15.140 untrue I'm saying the difference in approach by the media is telling of a bias

01:09:21.020 bias based on politics politics well you sound like me so I call it the substitution

01:09:27.880 game when you see someone treated entirely differently depending on who they are what

01:09:32.440 they believe or who wants to attack them versus similar behavior even worse behavior by somebody

01:09:37.960 else that they want to protect that's the tell and I think people at home they play that

01:09:42.200 game all the time in their head they see that kind of reporting and it drives them crazy

01:09:46.020 mm-hmm look at look just just recently uh the the younger sister to Miley Cyrus her name

01:09:54.060 is Noah Cyrus and she's a successful singer too called Candace Owens uh I don't even know

01:10:01.280 if I can repeat this um she she used the same term that Don Imus used about black female basketball

01:10:08.240 players that got him fired the exact same term about the hair and the alleged whatever

01:10:14.680 um she said it and there's a couple of news articles about it and then she came out and

01:10:22.560 said oh I'm mortified that I used a term without knowing its context and its history thank you

01:10:27.180 for educating me I'll never use it again now there's no context in which what she said against

01:10:30.900 Candace Owens could be ambiguous or not understood none and Candace came out with it saying liberals

01:10:36.620 are okay with racism as long as it's directed at someone they don't like she's got a point it's

01:10:41.820 not an I mean I've watched this as a reporter Cher called Sarah Palin the c-word no one cared

01:10:47.080 Melania Trump she's been called a hooker uh a hoe bag by politicians uh the New York Times referred

01:10:53.840 to her as a mannequin no no problem uh Mika Brzezinski called Mike Pompeo Secretary of State a wannabe

01:11:00.340 dictator's butt boy okay not to mention what Joy Reid has said about um gays and lesbians on her blog

01:11:06.120 that she falsely claimed was hacked all of it's fine why because you're going after conservatives

01:11:12.560 that's why it's you get a pass on sexism and racism and homophobia just as long as the target

01:11:18.940 is right of center yeah I think that's true you know that's again when when narratives are colliding

01:11:25.400 so they want on the one hand the the narrative of yes let's listen to and protect women as

01:11:32.660 should be but then that collides with who it's against and who it's not against and then that

01:11:38.500 determines how they cover and how much credence it gives it's not consistent what do you think of

01:11:43.620 Ronan Farrell I I have yet to see his in-depth article with Tara Reid um but I I believe he was

01:11:52.560 speaking to her at least for a time so you know perhaps Ronan did not believe Tara Reid I don't

01:11:56.740 know but what do you think of his reporting I read his original article about CBS and I thought it was

01:12:02.640 quite good other than mixing Jeff Fager in with the mix when they were completely different allegations

01:12:10.080 and kind of again bringing him up in a way it looked like Fager could be attacked and I talk in

01:12:16.280 the book more about why I think that is I thought it was quite a good article in terms of it was fair

01:12:21.140 it was research it's it's an article that if it had been if someone had wanted to not publish it

01:12:28.740 they would have said it didn't have enough you know but I thought there was enough there to have

01:12:32.960 the discussion about the things that he talked about um what was interesting is he had allegedly

01:12:40.280 reportedly this is coming from someone who knows firsthand but I don't know firsthand he had

01:12:45.660 interviewed at 60 minutes prior to this and Fager had taken a pass on meeting with Ronan because he

01:12:52.280 didn't think Ronan was ready and he didn't want to lead people on sometimes at CBS if they want to hire

01:12:59.040 somebody they dangle hey you'll be able to maybe contribute to 60 minutes and Fager didn't like that

01:13:05.400 and said I really don't like that being dangled out there by people who want to who have no shot

01:13:09.620 really at contributing and he didn't think Ronan was ready so I don't know I thought that was an

01:13:15.440 interesting backdrop to the whole story that came out some months later should Ronan have disclosed that

01:13:21.500 if this is true should he have said somewhere in the piece by the way I tried to get a job with the

01:13:26.100 people I'm reporting on and you know didn't get hired I don't know I think that's arguable I think you

01:13:33.580 know Ronan his reporting at times has been flawed there's no question about that he's he's definitely

01:13:39.900 gone with things including in Kavanaugh that he could not support that I think he would not have

01:13:44.600 reported if the target had been of a different political background but I'll also say this about

01:13:50.880 Ronan it took somebody like that who was a bit of a cowboy a journalistic cowboy to really get the

01:13:59.380 me too movement started to to go after and bring down a guy like Harvey Weinstein because everyone

01:14:04.980 else was too scared and he wasn't scared he and Rich McHugh who I really really respect his report

01:14:11.440 his producer who hasn't gotten enough credit for his role he's the guy who quit NBC and discussed

01:14:16.800 after they killed that story and he hasn't gotten the Pulitzer Prize like Ronan has he hasn't really

01:14:22.140 gotten much of anything and and he's really still looking for a job but he was just as brave

01:14:29.260 but these guys you know with that despite being told no no no they stayed on it and it did take

01:14:35.900 somebody who was a little bit you could say reckless if you were a detractor I think it it did require a

01:14:42.000 certain amount of courage and a little bit of editorial laxity at times but they got the story

01:14:47.340 and man they had the Harvey story right they certainly did yeah where do we where do we go from

01:14:53.120 here Cheryl because I think a lot of people are as equally disgusted with the media as you and I are

01:14:58.660 but don't know what to do right don't know I don't you get asked this all the time like where do I go

01:15:04.500 for unbiased news well I have a probably a similar experience that you have maybe every week or two

01:15:13.160 I get called by the following either an investor who's not someone who's trying to make money but

01:15:19.900 wants to know where to put his money to try to fund something that's fair to try to stop this

01:15:26.460 censorship and not just the news but you go online and they don't want you to see certain

01:15:30.600 peer-reviewed published studies because these corporate and political interests have been able

01:15:35.020 to pull strings with Google and Twitter and Facebook viewpoints they don't want you to see so

01:15:40.120 there are smart investors who are looking for where can I put money to to fund something that's

01:15:47.420 independent that's more like makes the internet freer access to information that makes the news

01:15:53.540 available to report factually without being deplatformed and there are two other categories

01:15:59.520 there are journalists who want to do it I get called every probably couple of weeks by journalists

01:16:03.980 with an idea they're trying to work on the problem and technical people like the former co-founder of

01:16:10.360 Wikipedia Larry Sanger who parted with Wikipedia because it's becoming as you know just wholly

01:16:17.320 furthering agendas in many instances and smearing and so on by these agenda editors co-opted by all

01:16:24.100 these PR firms and special interests they're all looking for how can we report news and information

01:16:30.580 and various viewpoints and scientific studies in a factual way and in a fair way in an open way

01:16:36.100 and not be deplatformed and if they controversialize the people doing it how how can we make it where it

01:16:42.400 doesn't matter people can still find them and they're working on all kinds of technical

01:16:46.880 possibilities one of them and I don't fully understand any of them one of them involves

01:16:52.440 blockchain technology in the interim it involves doing things more like blogging on a website that's

01:17:00.720 very that's much harder to take down than somebody who's relying on YouTube for their YouTube channel

01:17:06.120 which is easy to take down so there's people working on the problems and I think in the next four

01:17:10.660 years we'll have something new that comes of this I don't know what form it takes but in the meantime

01:17:16.500 we're just sort of stuck doing our own research people who aren't in the news how do they have the

01:17:21.460 time to watch original sourcing which is what I recommend and how do they have time to hunt around

01:17:25.500 you know it's it's a it's a tough place I recommend the last chapter in slanted some um

01:17:31.840 new off narrative news sources and I can't even say they're down the middle non-partisan because

01:17:37.760 there's there are a few in there but there's so few of those that I'm actually recommending some

01:17:41.860 conservative and some liberal places that you can go for certain stories and Glenn Greenwald's one of

01:17:49.080 them unfortunately when I published the book he was with the intercept his own news organization I

01:17:53.940 don't know if your listeners know what what you said but that he he left his own news organization

01:17:59.280 the intercept which he started so it would be off narrative because they wouldn't let him publish

01:18:03.820 on a story on Joe Biden but anyway he's someone who when you're talking about what's happened in

01:18:09.980 the media left meets right and he's great on this topic so I have some recommendations of where people

01:18:15.400 can go on certain topics you know while we're sorting all of this out I know I think you know the rise of

01:18:23.500 the independent journalist is a great thing you know even five years ago there weren't very many

01:18:28.300 meaningful platforms if you wanted to leave cable uh broadcast news or this the big papers the big

01:18:36.960 print reporters uh reporting outlets and now gosh you know from patreon to substack to podcasting

01:18:44.160 there's Sinclair which is obviously right-leaning but is giving voice to more people who are pushing back

01:18:51.540 on these mainstream narratives who previously only had one place they could go which was Fox

01:18:55.940 um I think it's great that's good you know more diversity in the mix is better and not and I'm

01:19:01.340 talking about ideological diversity which people you know people who are lecturing us about diversity

01:19:05.080 all the time always forget um how do you think how do things change if at all now that it appears

01:19:11.820 Trump will be moving on uh from the presidency I I talked to some smart people about what they think

01:19:21.080 is coming and of course CNN has to somehow redefine itself and as you said it may come in a sale with

01:19:28.800 new ownership um someone in the book who knows Zucker predicted that after Trump Zucker will sail off into

01:19:36.580 the sunset with his money and leaves CNN to flounder and figure out what it's going to do next that may

01:19:42.100 indeed happen but us as a news industry I don't see the problems we've talked about at the news

01:19:48.980 organizations we've talked about changing because their goal has been transformed you how what would

01:19:55.540 make them want to go back to doing normal news when if my theory is true as and I think I make a pretty

01:20:02.580 good case for it if they have been turned into narrative machines by certain interests that still

01:20:07.640 will have interests they want furthered they're not going to go back to what we thought of as news

01:20:13.220 but I think what will happen is there will be so more of the same but there will be other outlets

01:20:19.380 and other platforms that arise where people can go for unbiased or less biased information or off

01:20:25.960 narrative reporting I don't think and that Joe Biden will get a pass I mean I'd be interested to hear

01:20:31.480 what you think about this he'll get a pass in many respects like we saw during the campaign

01:20:35.240 but within the left just like within the right there are conflicting views and agendas and he's

01:20:45.820 going to probably get attacked by the press and those interested parties that control the press

01:20:51.180 when he's off their narrative on key important topics you're going to I think whenever you see the

01:20:56.460 left you know the New York Times and CNN and so on attack Joe Biden for something or criticize him it's

01:21:02.260 because someone else or a more powerful corporate or political interest on the left wants that done

01:21:07.300 and I think you will see some of that oh definitely he's going to get it from the left flank and those

01:21:13.440 who support it the Bernie supporters don't like him and so there will be more of a division in some of

01:21:18.300 the press but the mainstream the New York Times CNN all the broadcast networks not to mention MSNBC

01:21:24.800 which doesn't really represent the Bernie wing they're they're going to go after him that he's I mean

01:21:29.380 they're not going to go after him they're going to they're going to defend him and Fox News of course

01:21:32.880 which has been very defensive of President Trump will not be anywhere near so when it comes to

01:21:36.900 Biden I don't know to me I'm I'm biased because I worked there for 13 years but I see Fox News's sin

01:21:42.500 as far less than that of the mainstream because they they were necessary they were an antidote

01:21:49.420 to what was uniformly left-wing press and somebody had to represent the other side and I I feel like

01:21:56.280 thank God for Fox News for doing that because half of the country had no one for most of our

01:22:02.860 television history representing their point of view and now at least we have that and you know there's

01:22:09.080 no question Fox is not objective and right down the middle but my opinion is they're a lot closer to it

01:22:14.780 than anything I see on on those left-wing platforms I I have two things to say about that and I agree with

01:22:22.000 you it's odd that there are left-wing outlets that no one the same people don't criticize for being

01:22:30.180 politically left or opinionated and they always point to Fox as if Fox is the anomaly because

01:22:36.920 this exposes their bias the default position is that left-wing is normal and good and doesn't get

01:22:44.360 called out and when you work at CBS and PBS and CNN as I did with liberal billionaire activist donors

01:22:51.240 running the news division or owning the company nobody blinks everybody thinks that's good and

01:22:56.100 nobody says well your news is tainted because of all the left-wing left-leaning liberals but if it's

01:23:02.480 Sinclair which is owned by a right-leaning family but doesn't get at all involved in the editorial content in

01:23:09.600 my program unlike everywhere else I've worked and yet that's constantly by other journalists attacked

01:23:15.440 with a presumption that makes me realize they don't understand that the one-sided application of

01:23:21.640 the question they ask about what's it like to work at a place where there's a conservative

01:23:26.000 you know activist or conservative donor that runs it never got asked that question when I worked most of

01:23:32.260 my career with the tables turned for liberals billionaire activist donors and so yes I think that it's

01:23:40.080 interesting that the default position is everybody's supposed to be liberal and left and no questions asked but if

01:23:44.760 you then go work for the equivalent somewhere else that's considered by the press and critics as

01:23:50.440 somehow off you know beyond the pale but also with Fox so they were doing just what filling a gap as you

01:23:57.860 said because all the other media organizations were doing not doing that or doing the opposite and so

01:24:04.500 there's no recognition for that it's just Fox came up and they're treated like a villain for doing what

01:24:09.840 the others were doing on the left and secondly I will say that when I watch Fox versus when I watch

01:24:14.840 some of the left-leaning places like CNN and MSNBC and I sample around Fox will give you both sides

01:24:22.940 they'll tell you maybe they'll tell you on their opinion shows or with with some of their reports you

01:24:29.160 know how they feel but you at least know what the other side said I watch some places or read some articles

01:24:34.940 they pretend there is no other side you you wouldn't know if that's what you watched you

01:24:39.660 wouldn't know there was debating on a certain issue because they've left it out they don't even want

01:24:44.040 that reported and I think that's a big difference what do you think though about the way they're

01:24:49.520 covering in the way that all the news media is covering Trump's election claims his his contests

01:24:54.540 you know the challenges that he's been filing because you know Fox has been I think they find

01:24:59.600 themselves in a pickle my my instincts on the outside tell me they don't they don't believe

01:25:05.240 in the president's claims but they're trying not to abandon their audience and that's why you see

01:25:09.820 sort of different anchors popping up there's of course always Hannity who's he defends Trump on

01:25:14.340 everything Maria Bartiromo Lou Dobbs and then there's the straight news anchors who seem to be

01:25:19.780 on a different page message wise and I'll tell you just approaching it myself I just had an argument

01:25:27.240 with my pal Dan Abrams who I really like and respect he's got a show on Sirius radio and he

01:25:34.200 runs media and some other media entities like long crime network anyway I've always found him to be

01:25:39.660 he's center left but he's straight he's a straight shooter we had an argument on his Sirius show the

01:25:43.900 other day because he was like what you know why won't you say it's done why won't you say Joe Biden's

01:25:48.940 the president-elect and I said I haven't gone into the court and looked at all of the pleadings and

01:25:56.020 reviewed all of the exhibits and listened to all of the witnesses and until I do that I can't dismiss

01:26:03.280 these claims as completely bogus I haven't done my homework and I think very few people have gone

01:26:09.180 to those lengths now people I trust have people like Andy McCarthy he's been doing that and he's

01:26:14.120 a Trump fan and he's telling me you know publicly he's telling everyone he doesn't think there's there

01:26:19.220 there but and I've been open with the audience that I don't I don't get the sense that these are

01:26:24.460 robust claims but I'm open-minded I'm gonna watch them play out and trust the system you know that

01:26:32.100 the reality is the system isn't set up to really handle this amount of voter fraud claims within the

01:26:37.920 time Trump has and so realistically I think this thing's gonna get the electoral college is gonna meet

01:26:43.220 the votes are gonna be cast before Trump can can actually resolve any of these claims I mean the

01:26:47.920 remaining ones in court but what do you think well two things what's the harm journalistically into

01:26:54.700 the public of reserving judgment as a unbiased journalist of simply reporting what they're

01:27:00.640 saying and you can let the analysts come on in the Andy McCarthy's and say what they think there's no

01:27:05.160 problem with that but I don't understand when I've seen a lot of straight news reporters who I know

01:27:11.140 okay I don't know I'm pretty sure haven't read the pleadings like you said and done a broad

01:27:18.860 investigation into the claims and on the very front end we're saying there was nothing to see

01:27:23.360 and I think how does it benefit the public or you because the public wants to trust you but you look like

01:27:28.960 you have your thumb on the scale now they're not going to believe a lot of stuff you say because of

01:27:33.120 that how is it a benefit not to reserve judgment until it plays out further in in a when there's so

01:27:39.880 much dispute in such a contentious time another quick point we were told in 2016 that Russia and China

01:27:46.520 interfered and or tried to interfere in the election would do it again we know there were bad domestic

01:27:51.900 actors that took political steps and in the case of at least one FBI lawyer illegal steps to impact the

01:27:58.760 Trump campaign spy illegally on a former Trump campaign associate Carter Page we should have and

01:28:05.700 could have been very open to the notion those who cover elections should have been on the ground and

01:28:11.140 all of these places looking for foreign interference mischief by the Biden campaign mischief by the Trump

01:28:16.080 campaign but instead it's this double standard when it turned out that it was Trump who's trying to

01:28:22.340 say there was a problem after we were told there would be all of a sudden everybody's like well that's crazy

01:28:27.280 this is the best election ever what makes you think such a thing and I have spent some time looking at this

01:28:32.500 stuff and I'm not a lawyer you're a lawyer so you know a lot more than I do but I know enough to say that

01:28:39.160 normally if there were criminal fraud claims and some of these do come from what appear to be credible

01:28:46.440 witnesses and sworn affidavits with some evidence and some are even admitted but it's not fraud it's more of an

01:28:51.480 accident so it's a question of how big it was but if there was a criminal voter fraud claim in the past

01:28:59.780 or if it's something that's important normally a law enforcement body would get involved and over the

01:29:04.880 course of and one of Trump's lawyers made this argument in court in the last few days over the course

01:29:10.600 of weeks but probably months or years they would gather evidence with the help of subpoenas they could

01:29:15.820 collect forensic evidence by confiscating machines and conducting examinations and forcing people to

01:29:22.240 tell to take depositions under oath they can't do any of that they don't have any law enforcement body

01:29:27.700 that's helping them so it's sort of like looking at a alleged victim of a murder let's say someone in

01:29:35.040 their family got murdered and looking at them the next day and going we'll prove it and they don't have

01:29:40.200 the way to go do fiber analysis and to go into private property and confiscate evidence but you're

01:29:45.920 telling them prove it with no help from law enforcement to help you know compel evidence so i feel like the

01:29:53.140 trump people are in sort of that predicament where they're pursuing civil cases because they have no help

01:29:57.860 from law enforcement they don't have the tools to compel you know the testimony and to get the forensic

01:30:03.780 evidence they would need if these claims some of these claims are true and they have this truncated

01:30:07.980 timeline that's almost impossible and it kind of makes me wonder if there is fraud in the future

01:30:13.460 let's put this aside how would we ever find it exposed and prosecuted in the time frame allotted i

01:30:19.880 think we're now seeing that that would be a problem i feel like to some extent we're dealing with the

01:30:26.080 same problems that we started the interview with which are bias and laziness they they don't want to

01:30:33.560 believe that there's any problem with the vote that elected the guy they're supporting

01:30:37.480 biden and they're too lazy to go take a hard look at all of these these claims and exhibits and so on

01:30:45.700 because see point number one right there's there's no motivation to get off their ass and do it whereas

01:30:52.180 there totally would be if this if the situation were reversed and it was joe biden claiming this stuff

01:30:57.060 you don't think the new york times would have teams of reporters interviewing these witnesses and

01:31:02.460 finding more who could support the claims of fraud they would be you know you and i know they would

01:31:08.520 be that's that's the thing that makes me most hesitant to jump on board because as you know now

01:31:13.680 you're getting shamed even as the reporter if you don't if you don't jump on board the new york times

01:31:18.200 narrative of this is all absurd it's outrageous and it's an undermining of our democracy and as i said

01:31:24.080 to dan the other day i'm like your problem is you want me to get upset and i'm not i'm just not you

01:31:29.120 want me to be emotional and i'm not i'm i'm waiting to see how it plays out and i the the hypocrisy of

01:31:35.860 the press and the left on this is glaring at me as i evaluate here's the dangerous part of it so now

01:31:43.500 it's being made because of what you discussed if if the tables were turned the tables would be turned

01:31:49.320 but now you can't even find the information to make an assessment because the press has just dismissed

01:31:55.300 it on the front end instead of telling you there is this and that they simply say with they say

01:32:00.720 without evidence that there's no evidence instead of pointing to what evidence exists they just simply

01:32:06.720 say everything's being lost there's no evidence so i had to hunt for and i put together a resource

01:32:10.660 at my website of a lot of the claims a lot of the links a lot of the depositions a lot of the affidavits

01:32:16.440 so that people can at least see it i mean i think they should have access to what the claims are

01:32:22.180 and instead of being told you can't see them if you try to circulate the legal documents for example

01:32:28.700 one of the sydney powell lawsuits that i tried to circulate on twitter it won't circulate like they

01:32:33.380 have prevented it so they don't want people i think that's a tell in a way is that right cheryl so it's

01:32:39.120 not just the little are you sure you don't want to read this before you recirculate so they're not

01:32:43.680 even letting you retweet right it says it's a link that that is bad or malicious and it's not so

01:32:48.880 they've you know i've linked to it on my site and they've put out a note saying it's not but they

01:32:53.400 they put some flag where you can't even share it on twitter so again that's the tell when they're

01:33:00.260 saying you don't need to see all this pesky information because they're afraid you might

01:33:05.000 make up your mind and it might be the wrong decision that you make i say put it all out there

01:33:11.200 let people decide for themselves what they want to think about it well that's of course what they did

01:33:15.260 with a hunter biden story and then there was some survey done of people asking if you had known about

01:33:21.360 this story prior to the presidential election would it have affected your vote might you have changed

01:33:25.860 your vote and a large large proportion said yes yes what what hunter biden story people these were

01:33:32.440 biden voters who were very interested to know more um twitter's in on it big tech is in on it and

01:33:39.320 i you know i don't have it all figured out how they're doing it i can see with my eyes the stuff

01:33:44.160 they do on twitter where they suppress stories or they just won't circulate a report from the new

01:33:48.720 york post as the post kept pointing out a paper founded by alexander hamilton um so i can see

01:33:55.580 those efforts to tamp down news that they don't like but what worries me is the stuff i can't see

01:34:02.880 that's true and they became in my view desperate in the weeks before the election because the interests

01:34:10.140 that have convinced big tech to step in the same way these interests influence the news big tech

01:34:15.480 didn't want to do this this started in 2016 after lobbying effort that guess who media matters david

01:34:21.720 brock takes credit for convincing facebook in 2016 to launch what i call these fake fact checks big tech

01:34:27.720 didn't want to they've been pressed by political and corporate interests to do it and they should have

01:34:31.780 said hand you know we're hands-off information except that's what's illegal but they've gone down this

01:34:36.700 slippery slope and you know i think the invisible stuff that they do is more insidious they got

01:34:43.080 desperate and we saw it before the election because they saw trump might get re-elected and they worried

01:34:47.480 that he would but they've been doing let's take coronavirus the partnership we knew about because

01:34:54.680 they announced it but most of the stuff they don't announce google partners with the world health

01:34:58.520 organization to direct your searches to who information that proved to be wrong by who's own

01:35:05.660 admission that's the danger but google is deciding on the front end whose information you get to see

01:35:11.200 first and how they're going to make it hard to see or discredit information that's contrary that may

01:35:16.540 actually be true and they're doing this every day like you say in invisible ways if i post a um

01:35:23.140 you know i get i'm down throttled on facebook and twitter i i don't have that many followers probably

01:35:29.540 minuscule compared to you but let's say a few tens of thousands of followers on facebook i'll post

01:35:35.700 something on my professional page and it will say zero people saw it and on twitter same thing you know

01:35:40.840 i may get a few thousand impressions but if i go to parlor where i just signed up the same tweet same time

01:35:47.200 we'll get one to two million impressions you can see what they're doing when you compare it like

01:35:52.500 that but it's kind of invisible people just you just don't show up on people's timeline

01:35:56.420 your tweets you know it says they've disappeared or they don't exist anymore it's all of this

01:36:01.540 invisible stuff that they're doing that i think is very insidious the covid stuff is infuriating too

01:36:07.420 and it was so irresponsible and dangerous you know they want to look at people who cast any doubt on the

01:36:13.180 you know interminable lockdowns as dangerous and irresponsible i think their reporting has been

01:36:18.780 dangerous and irresponsible their unwillingness to look at the actual costs of these lockdowns

01:36:23.220 and the other lives that it's going to cost and to try to shame anybody with a divergent viewpoint

01:36:29.460 i mean that's what today's day and age is all about shame anybody with a divergent viewpoint whether

01:36:33.660 it's on race or gender uh or covid you it's no longer oh just we disagree and i have the better

01:36:41.480 argument now it's you're a bad person you need to be silenced because your views are dangerous

01:36:48.360 and meanwhile you look around your neighborhood not only in my case do i have friends i know who

01:36:53.620 have died of covid but i have friends i know whose lives have been ruined by these lockdowns and you're

01:37:00.760 just told you're not allowed to talk about it and the press is the one saying it well the scary thing

01:37:06.900 i've talked to quite a few virologists and scientists including some who work for the government

01:37:11.020 and some respected in academic doing various studies and aspects of coronavirus research

01:37:16.760 they disagree with some of these public health official narratives and directives and don't want

01:37:23.560 to say it and two of them told me separately they don't want to tell what they see as the truth or at

01:37:29.100 least a contradiction of what ought to be done for fear they said of being labeled a coronavirus doubter

01:37:35.340 and or for fear of appearing to contradict dr fauci and i said to both of these guys that said that

01:37:41.760 boy it's a scary time when scientists won't tell you about science so we're only going to get

01:37:47.340 one side or one view on something where there are many views because they're afraid of being

01:37:51.940 controversialized by this industry and by these powerful interests yep we just we just had the uh the

01:37:59.660 doctors from the great barrington declaration on and these are three really respected doctors

01:38:05.080 it's it's i think it's harvard oxford and stanford uh saying that we yes keep people safe but we're

01:38:13.140 going about this all wrong what we need to be doing is protecting the most vulnerable the elderly the

01:38:17.540 immunocompromised and the rest of us should be out there living our lives if you feel more comfortable

01:38:22.200 wearing a mask while you do that and socially disting while you do that then then go right ahead but

01:38:27.240 they shouldn't be mandatory and there should be no lockdowns and this is the way forward as we even now

01:38:33.260 as we wait for the vaccine that that is what's responsible given the massive massive health

01:38:38.360 problems that the lockdowns cause that again you're not allowed to report on or you know if if big tech

01:38:44.740 always links back to the who as you point out they're the ones who are saying masks don't help

01:38:49.940 masks do help mask wait what who am i supposed to believe and then they act like we're crazy you know

01:38:56.200 why are you questioning it's like well you're the ones that told us two opposite things so this is what

01:39:02.040 undermines the public trust in its institutions public health officials and so on they're the

01:39:06.860 ones creating that well that's the thing is that we not only need a new line of media i mean i i love

01:39:15.560 that we have these independent platforms and i'm thrilled to be a part of it but it would be even

01:39:21.020 more exciting if you could find something that was like just straight down the middle on fact reporting

01:39:25.980 whether it hurt left or right you know just actual investigative reporting but you also do need

01:39:31.520 scientists like that like i had deborah so on the show and she's a scientist who studied gender and

01:39:37.960 she removed herself she kind of got forced out of her industry because they were telling her you're

01:39:43.240 going to get kicked out for writing that there is only two genders and there's there's only two

01:39:47.460 biological sexes and there's only two genders and that's that and she's respectful of people who

01:39:52.660 don't identify as male or female but as a scientific matter she is where she is as a scientist

01:39:57.900 we need new scientists because this is happening in fields where it's dangerous like it's and covid

01:40:04.660 you know covid's the same in that lane i don't i don't know if they're in if there's anybody

01:40:09.420 working like we're working in our lane to create that for the scientists that that's what really

01:40:17.780 scares me it is scary i've interviewed the former head of the new england journal of medicine dr

01:40:23.320 marsha angel at harp who's at harvard and the current a current editor of british journal i think

01:40:30.400 it was lancet who both say peer-reviewed published medical journals new england journal of medicine

01:40:35.820 and lancet and others have been completely co-opted by pharmaceutical interests and special interests

01:40:40.040 just like everything else that it's no longer possible to leave to believe most of what's reported

01:40:44.780 in those journals which everybody relies on your doctors rely on and my doctors rely on

01:40:49.360 and this is scientists again it's like the news it used to be that scientific discussion was welcome

01:40:56.460 but now just like the news if you're off the narrative of whatever the pharmaceutical

01:41:00.540 interest that's powerful wants you to have or whoever it may be political interest they don't want

01:41:07.000 your view heard at all how are you ever going to get to the truth with some science because it's

01:41:11.960 it's evolving as we learn more we would never know i argue that cigarettes can cause lung cancer

01:41:18.120 today if this were the atmosphere back in the 1950s because their view and the industry's view was

01:41:24.380 that it couldn't and if you try to say that it could or if you had a study that showed that it did

01:41:28.600 you would be controversialized and google would direct your searches away from that study and you

01:41:34.040 would never know they exist and we'd you know this is this managed news environment we live in now

01:41:39.080 it you're right it impacts science and everything i gotta ask you about your lawsuit against the federal

01:41:45.160 government before i let you go um could you just give us the quick 401 one on why you sued them

01:41:51.340 and what you were alleging they did to you well before edward snowden we knew about ap being spied on

01:41:58.780 and james rosen at fox news i had been approached by two separate intel sources i didn't know very well

01:42:04.820 who told me i was likely being monitored because of the reporting that i was doing and when i said why

01:42:10.280 they both use similar phrases about the american public would be shocked at the extent to which

01:42:15.820 the obama administration is spying on ordinary citizens long story short i was able to get an

01:42:21.220 intel for intel contact forensic exam nobody else would have been able to find this software in this

01:42:26.660 intrusion it was able to document a long-term intrusion effort in my cbs computers and they got

01:42:32.640 into the cbs system keystroke monitoring um had my passwords they planned and classified documents in

01:42:38.420 their cbs conducted an independent exam and found the remote intrusion had occurred and infiltrated

01:42:44.660 the cbs computers they announced that publicly in 2013 um fbi opened a case with me as the victim but

01:42:52.260 never told me i only found out about that through a foyer request that i sued them for sometime later

01:42:57.380 um found out through a whistleblower that department of justice fbi u.s attorney's office was all part of

01:43:03.740 it it was more than one phase i certainly wasn't the only one they were spying on many

01:43:08.260 hundreds of people if not thousands in different operations and because the department of justice

01:43:12.940 even though our forensics are airtight and cannot be refuted that the government did this the

01:43:19.520 department of justice is defending the guilty agents and getting my cases thrown out on technicalities

01:43:24.680 and now i have a case in maryland that the department of justice is defending against rod rosenstein

01:43:29.720 and others who are involved and one of the federal agents involved ex-agents has admitted it and has

01:43:37.000 said he doesn't want the case dismissed because he's ready to tell the truth will it ever get in

01:43:41.400 court again you're a lawyer you can see how even if you have evidence and someone admitting what they

01:43:46.360 did if you can't get that before a jury if they get you on statute of limitations or whatever

01:43:51.460 technicality and you can never get discovery to get the names of all the people and all the proof

01:43:56.400 nothing happens but i'm just trying to sue doj to get accountability because i always argued

01:44:02.200 starting in 2014 if those people aren't held accountable why won't they do it again and i think

01:44:08.000 this is exactly what happened in 2016 to the political campaign and no reason to think it's not

01:44:13.780 going to continue if people aren't held accountable what what had you been reporting on that you think

01:44:19.260 led to them spying on you i had done so many stories it could have been anything um the energy

01:44:25.940 story i mentioned the other cylinders they were so sensitive about in the obama administration

01:44:30.800 fast and furious i had broken a lot of stories on fast and furious they were very very very worried

01:44:36.180 about that we saw emails later that talked about that um but also some corporate and pharmaceutical

01:44:41.800 related stories so i wasn't sure but the forensic analysis did show they were very interested in the

01:44:47.900 fast and furious reporting during that time period they looked at my photos my work photos and access

01:44:52.800 my work file on that topic and then a separate phase of monitoring began when i was covering benghazi

01:44:59.160 they had different ways they came into the computer systems in my home systems so they were they were doing

01:45:04.740 it over a long period of time so i think it was primarily fast and furious and benghazi but i believe these

01:45:11.340 interests were actually watching for whatever i might be reporting on to get a heads up before it came out

01:45:16.900 and to be able to spin it and controversialize it if they could know and and also who was talking to

01:45:22.440 me if they could know in advance they could help take care of it and get on the other side of it

01:45:27.580 publicly before it came out well and i just want to reiterate what you said because you they have

01:45:33.940 attacked you you know people like mother jones of the far left they'll attack you like what happened

01:45:38.400 to cheryl she's like some keystroke you know nut now that people are spying on her just remember what

01:45:43.880 happened to james rosen the obama administration was spying on him trying to find out who his source

01:45:50.840 was on north korea and what had exchanged between them and his parents and we know that that has been

01:45:57.280 proven it's been admitted in court documents that is a fact and so if you don't think they were capable

01:46:04.240 of it you haven't been paying attention they they were capable of it and the only question is

01:46:09.420 whether cheryl can prove it in court and i know that uh when the court when the court of appeals

01:46:14.680 dismissed your one of your cases they said it's without prejudice so you can come back if you get

01:46:18.940 more evidence which now you say you have and so that's an active case that's pending where you're

01:46:23.660 going to try to prove it with hopefully the testimony of this person who says they were part of it

01:46:28.080 yes and you know the we always had a stumbling block because again the forensics are irrefutable but we

01:46:34.460 need the courts wanted us to have the names of all the agents and we need a discovery to find out who

01:46:40.600 had access to these ip how are you supposed to know that so it's this it's a circular loop they say

01:46:46.420 because you don't have the names you can't get discovery and we argued and one of the appellate

01:46:51.900 judges completely sided with us a clinton appointee who was quite good i thought he said this is kafka-esque

01:46:57.480 he said that how can she know the names without discovery so they're they're requiring me to have

01:47:03.320 something i can't possibly get because the alleged perpetrators hold the information won't give it to

01:47:08.540 me and we tried discovery they didn't give us a single piece of paper nothing not not a single

01:47:14.340 document over the course of the time that we've tried to do this and and then i remember reading

01:47:19.860 that yeah i will verify your account of what the judge said he's i remember the frustration of like

01:47:24.980 how she's supposed to do this you won't give her the name so how she's supposed to provide the

01:47:29.660 or get the discovery to prove her case uh it's so incredibly frustrating and to me it's just been

01:47:34.720 upsetting because i don't want anybody i don't want to see somebody like you or anybody diminished by

01:47:40.700 the i mean who cares what the far left says you know but it just is infuriating because you're a

01:47:45.200 stellar reporter i think most people know that anyway you got five-time emmy award winner murrow award

01:47:50.000 recipient all of the things um but just hopefully people who are fair they know the truth and they're

01:47:57.320 not listening to mother jones which unlike you really has an agenda well media matters put out

01:48:04.040 some pretty strong ridiculous stuff that the again their partners picked up that was about a computer

01:48:09.940 that said i had a backspace key stuck which there is no backspace key on it it was not the computer

01:48:15.400 involved it was not a stuck key they're really and they'd had nobody examine it but they put out

01:48:21.280 some computer expert that said it looked like nothing happened to me and there's a lot of technical

01:48:26.540 stuff about i don't even want to get into but if people want to read it's at my website cherylackson.com

01:48:32.540 if you look under special investigations and you hear these crazy things being said it's all discussed

01:48:38.720 there and it's sorted out with the facts and the information um i don't hear too much about that i mean

01:48:44.600 you have the usual suspects who want to controversialize me on other stories bring up that

01:48:50.320 or say that i falsely say that i'm anti-vaccine or falsely say that i had no computer intrusion

01:48:54.820 and i don't really maybe i just don't hear much about it but i don't really get blowback from that

01:48:59.960 in the circles that i circulate and i certainly hasn't hurt um my platform such as it is you know with

01:49:08.180 my tv show full measure or anything else that i've done so i'm i'm okay with it but i'm i'm determined

01:49:13.660 to fight just because it's right you know as far as the lawsuit it's just such a travesty that this

01:49:18.560 is happening to people it's just like anything people who are agenda driven and have a reason to

01:49:23.680 want to diminish you will go with it and people who are fair-minded won't so it's almost like

01:49:28.320 legally you have every right to fight and you should but pr wise there's no point right you're

01:49:32.800 not gonna no one that's gonna be convinced one way or the other and they don't need to be your

01:49:36.480 career is going great i love watching your reporting and i love what you're doing now

01:49:40.960 and i've been a big fan for a long time so thank you and come back when we have more information

01:49:46.860 in the uh in the case because i'm watching it i'm interested it's great well thank you it's um

01:49:52.800 been fun to finally talk with you in person which i don't think we'd ever done before believe it or

01:49:57.320 not so i really appreciate it was good chat today's episode was brought to you in part by

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01:50:07.820 get yours today at superbeats.com slash mk while i have you go ahead and subscribe to the show would

01:50:14.480 you i'm going to give you a superbeats if you do it no i'm not going to give you anything other than

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01:50:34.180 it does make me feel like i know what my audience is thinking what what you want more of what you

01:50:39.400 enjoy what you don't um so please if you feel like you want to do it i would love it and i want to tell

01:50:45.540 you that uh next on the show on monday we're gonna have sam harris so sam harris is incredibly brilliant

01:50:53.840 and i hope i can hang with him intellectually but he's a philosopher he's a podcaster he's an author

01:51:00.440 and he is the guest more than any other we have had suggested to us by our audience that they want

01:51:05.920 to hear from so i'm looking forward to this too i feel like like most of these shows we learn together

01:51:10.720 and i think probably especially so on monday so uh here we go have a great weekend and i'll see you

01:51:18.080 next week thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no agenda and no fear the megan kelly show

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01:51:29.120 you

The Megyn Kelly Show - December 11, 2020

Sharyl Attkisson on Media Bias, Narrative Vs. Facts, and Big Tech Censorship ｜ Ep. 36

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