Shelby and Eli Steele on Ferguson, Overcoming Obstacles and America ｜ Ep. 30
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 15 minutes
Words per Minute
151.75159
Summary
Shelby Steele and his son Eli Steele talk about their new film, What Killed Michael Brown, a documentary about the Michael Brown case, and why they think it s so important to make a movie about it.
Transcript
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Today on the show, Shelby Steele and his son, Eli Steele.
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Shelby Steele is one of the smartest men in America.
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He's won the National Humanities Medal, the National Book Critics Circle Award.
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He's a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution.
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And he happens to be the writer and narrator of the new movie.
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You can get it on Amazon now after some hullabaloo called What Killed Michael Brown.
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His son Eli is an award-winning filmmaker and director.
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And they worked in tandem on this project, which has not been without controversy or without a profound message.
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And I think if you followed the BLM movement at all, what happened in Ferguson, Missouri five years ago with Michael Brown,
00:02:53.040
you're going to find their messaging and their hard look at what really was behind Michael Brown's circumstances
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as he had that fatal confrontation with the officer that day.
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It's raw, it's honest, it's provocative, and it's really telling.
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So, Shelby, this movie was so interesting to me because I covered this case wall-to-wall when I was on the air in the primetime at Fox News.
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And if you looked at it from a lawyer's perspective, it had obvious problems right from the beginning.
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And the hands-up, don't-shoot narrative was falling apart before our very eyes.
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But so many in the media refused to acknowledge it until ultimately the lie was put to that story by none other than Eric Holder's Department of Justice
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He wasn't saying don't shoot when he was shot by the police officer in that case.
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And so I looked at this movie that you guys made, you and your son Eli, and thought, why now?
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Well, I think, you know, time offered some perspective so that we could – we were interested in the isolated story of what happened in Ferguson, Missouri.
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But we were also interested in what it signified in terms of race relations in America on a broader level.
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And so the five years intervening between when it actually happened and when we made the film was very – was comfortable.
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People were – people had digested things by this time and had deeper thoughts than they might have had if we had started when the actual event took place.
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They wanted to believe the story that here is this 18-year-old man begging the police officer for his life and the white cop shot him down repeatedly and over his desperate pleas.
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I'll never forget the shot on CNN with Sonny Hostin and Sally Cohn and a couple of others holding up signs that read, hands up, don't shoot, to show their disgust.
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And if this had been an adjudication by a jury at that point, you could understand it.
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But it was – it indicated what much of the media was doing then and much of Ferguson was doing at the time, which was believing without evidence.
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You talk in the movie about how there's a desire, there's a desire to believe because they're pursuing not actual truth, but poetic truth.
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Well, what it means is that in this instance, they're pursuing power.
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And in many ways, this whole incident is really about power.
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There is a need, a compulsion to believe this false narrative, this poetic truth, a truth manipulated to serve one's political, ideological goals.
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And so that truth focuses on victimization of blacks.
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And if you can somehow establish that blacks were victims of white racism, then power redounds to you.
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And in American culture, the political left, the ideological left, is based almost entirely on the idea of black victimization.
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Now, the environment also now is becoming a source of the same sort of thing.
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But for the most part, black victimization is really pregnant with power.
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And so this Ferguson, the shooting of one kid in Ferguson, Missouri, causes sort of worldwide ripples.
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That same year in Chicago, 3,000 boys were shot.
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There had to be a white finger, a trigger finger, shooting and killing a black kid, usually a male, almost always a male.
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Then we're duplicating all of American history.
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We're able then to say that, you see, systemic racism is still with us.
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And so people seize that and exploit that and make it, turn it into really enormous power, much bigger than we, than I think we realize sometimes.
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Political correctness, the influence of the left in universities, now in corporations, the corporate world.
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This is now a power that simply has to be contended, dealt with.
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So there was a lot at stake in Ferguson and more than met the eye at the very beginning.
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The film takes a hard look at Ferguson, which is an area right outside of St. Louis, looks at its history, looks at, because the question is that the movie is in search of an answer to the question, what killed Michael Brown?
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And you make the assertion in the film that it's a film about a racist murder that was neither racist nor a murder.
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And I thought it was interesting how you spent so much time on this, this public housing that was brought into the area in sort of what you call the post 1960s liberalism phase of our country's history.
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Pruitt Igo and I wanted to ask you, Eli, as the filmmaker, why that was important, how you thought the public housing history in the area figured in to how Michael Brown died, why he died, since it obviously happened years and years before he was born.
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And also to tell the audience, just so they understand that you are hearing impaired.
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So you're you're we have some a setup where you can hear me and hopefully the audience will be able to understand you, even though we don't have a video.
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Pruitt When you look back at history, you start to see that black people, when they came up during the Great Migration, beginning in 1900, were very aspirational.
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I mean, you have to be very aspirational to leave a land that you've known your whole life for the challenge of movies in Northern City.
00:10:07.300
And these people really defeated, they were building up equity, they were building new lives.
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And then we took all that away from them and moved them into housing projects.
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When you take away equity from people, when you take away their responsibility, their freedom, and move them into housing projects, you rob the people of so much.
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And then I'm giving you the very short version, then housing projects don't work.
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Well, what do you do with that population afterwards?
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Michael Brown, all of these people, they have no idea why they are in the world that they are in.
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And so that's why this story of Pruitt Igo is so important, because it's a lost history.
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Pruitt Igo played a huge role in the black underclasses today.
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Post-60s Pruitt Igo and liberalism, this desire to, quote, help.
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But what you guys say in the film really created the ghettoization, this is what you say in the film, of black families creating, as you say, Eli,
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the creation of a permanent black underclass that could never quite get out of, if not the actual buildings of the public housing,
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the belief that they were incapable of lifting themselves up.
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And I wonder, you know, as I'm watching the film, if you how much of this do you think still goes on today and influences cases like we saw over the summer?
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George Floyd, Jacob Blake, and so on, because this is a problem that exists beyond Ferguson, Missouri, Shelby.
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It's a pattern that we fell into back in the mid-60s when all the civil rights legislation was passed.
00:12:04.560
And in effect, blacks became absolutely free at that point.
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Obviously, there was racism that continued, but we were really granted freedom at that point.
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A big event happened then that we have not dealt with yet in America, and we have not, I don't think, fully understood.
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When a country confesses to having oppressed a people for four centuries in the most brutal instance of oppression in all of history,
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and then finally in 1964, you pass a civil rights bill, you say, oh, we were wrong, we're sorry.
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Pruitt That confession, and that's what I call it, the sort of great confession, put white America in a position,
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was after you confess to a sin, you have to then redeem yourself from that sin.
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And so white America was put in a position where it had to, where race was concerned, it had to redeem itself.
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And we have been in that redemptive phase of race relations since the mid-60s, where the real focus,
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we say, as we did in Pruitt-Igoe, we're going to save the lives of all these black people.
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We're just going to save their lives because we want to be able to say we are redeemed of our collusion with racism.
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It redeems the legitimacy of the democracy, of our government, to then begin to give things to blacks, all sorts of programs.
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Great society, war on poverty, affirmative action, public housing, school busing, advanced welfare payments, so forth and so on.
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Just give, give, give, not because we want to help black people, but because we want to redeem white people.
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And so all of these policies then, in effect, exploited black people all over again.
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Now we're using black people as evidence of white innocence of racism.
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And so what President Johnson, who came up with a bunch of these programs, he was concerned really about preserving the moral legitimacy of the American democracy.
00:14:36.140
So he said, we've confessed, now what we have to do is redeem ourselves in order to be legitimate.
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We have to help these people that we oppressed for so long.
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And to this day, that's the psychology that pretty much controls race relations, relations between blacks and whites.
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And so blacks now say, oh, you know what, our big thing, our source of power is the fact that we were victimized.
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That's what gets us attention in the larger society.
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That's what gets us social programs and racial preferences and universities and so forth.
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Diversity, that's what gets us that, is our victimization.
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That becomes an incentive in black America for us to think of ourselves as victims.
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And so we now, black America, after the 60s, has what I call a victim-focused identity.
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If you want to make most blacks angry, tell them that they're not really victims.
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That's, they'll go up for a lot of things, but that's where, that's where the foot goes down and, and the battle, and the battle begins.
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You say, we're not really a victim, that America's changed, that there's opportunity, that there's freedom everywhere.
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So you, you say that, and you're going to make a lot of people outraged.
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More with Shelby and Eli Steele in just a moment.
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This can make such a nice difference in a room.
00:18:07.020
There was this controversy from the Smithsonian sending out notification that words like
00:18:12.580
self-reliance are racist, that Blacks can identify with that.
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And for you to assume they can, it means you are racist.
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You say in the film that government and its policies have been an impediment
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to Black progression because they've disbelieved in our agency.
00:18:34.940
I love the way you phrased that, that these programs disbelieve in Black agency.
00:18:41.080
I know people who defend the programs would say, no, they were simply trying to remove impediments
00:18:52.420
That they couldn't get over some of these historical barriers to entry in areas like mortgages or banking
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or universities or some corporate jobs without something to help even what had been an uneven playing field.
00:19:15.180
That they like the folks who would be offended by what you said, saying we believe Blacks have agency,
00:19:22.800
but they were playing on an uneven playing field and we needed some government help to try to even it out
00:19:29.900
Well, what I would say, and I have the benefit of hindsight, 50 years of hindsight,
00:19:36.300
but what I would say is here's what's wrong with that.
00:19:42.700
You figured out that maybe they needed to be helped and have some barriers removed and so forth,
00:19:50.180
and certainly let's actually stop discrimination, stop redlining, stop all of that certainly must be done.
00:19:59.200
Where the failure was to actually see Black people as human beings, not as Black people, but as human beings.
00:20:08.580
Because you can't give human beings things like this without actually asking something of those human beings.
00:20:20.520
So the corruption of most of the racial reform that came out of the 60s was that it asked absolutely nothing of the people,
00:20:30.980
by way of development, of the people it claimed to help.
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It therefore ended up oppressing them all over again.
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And to this very day, we talk now at universities where, you know, political correctness and diversity,
00:20:59.540
Are you taking advantage of the racial preference you got?
00:21:07.020
And one of the reasons these programs have all failed is because, again, they don't ask for anything in return.
00:21:14.940
They don't say, we will help you, but you have the agency over your own life.
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No matter how we try to support you, no matter how many barriers we remove,
00:21:33.980
nothing will happen until you take responsibility for it.
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And that was the evil of oppression for four centuries.
00:21:41.920
We didn't let you have agency over your own life.
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And we still have not gotten to that point in terms of our racial reform in America.
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We still, and again, this is what Ferguson, Missouri is all about.
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The idea of black agency was, in a sense, killed off by 50 years of this kind of liberalism.
00:22:24.300
So now to demand that blacks do something themselves,
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boy, you'd be called a racist in a split second.
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When actually, that's exactly what blacks need to hear.
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That's the rules everybody else has to live by.
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How can we get ahead in the world if we don't do that?
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The messaging has gone, not entirely, but largely the other way.
00:22:50.040
Just not long ago, Michelle Obama came out, and I'm quoting now.
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She said, for all those tidy stories we tell ourselves about hard work and determination,
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the reality in America is, quote, a lot more complicated.
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Because for too many people in this country, no matter how hard they work, there are structural
00:23:14.480
Isn't that a horrible thing, a message to send to a young black kid now, trying to work his way into college or get ahead in life,
00:23:25.460
and you're going to basically tell him that no matter how hard he works, it's never going to pay off because he's black?
00:23:33.880
And you think you're a friend of the race because you're talking in this way?
00:23:40.840
The segregationists, I grew up in the segregationist era.
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They didn't doubt our very spirit, tell us that we had a right to be irresponsible.
00:23:52.300
If Michelle Obama, God bless her, would really stop and think for a minute, the message that you just denunciated is meant for white people.
00:24:08.740
She wants white people to stay on the hook to black people.
00:24:24.300
And that's the arrangement that Michelle Obama is trying to put forward.
00:24:33.600
Aren't we still on the hook at all for what's happened in our past?
00:24:37.560
That's a very good question, and it needs to be discussed and debated.
00:24:42.780
But my point is that whether you are, whether whites are on the hook or not on the hook, the challenge for black Americans is development.
00:24:59.020
We have to become all the great things we said we were going to be if we were just set free.
00:25:15.660
Let's take Hollywood, an industry that's just sadly known for excluding blacks, both in acting roles and certainly in producing and directing roles.
00:25:26.660
And I think folks would say no amount of excellence is going to get any meaningful number of black Americans over those barriers because there is an inherent bias in the industry that doesn't want them there.
00:25:45.000
And without shaming them, calling them out for racism, demanding even quotas on certain roles or production jobs, nothing will change.
00:25:57.880
I think that that's a unique situation, Hollywood.
00:26:06.640
And more importantly, I think it should be fought tooth and nail.
00:26:14.080
Blacks should be absolutely outraged and should do everything in their power, whites as well, to find ways to end that kind of bias so that everybody has a fair chance and so forth.
00:26:57.680
Thing and I, this is something that's important for me and I want to have it.
00:27:01.860
Then you are, then it's on you, you and you make a movie.
00:27:06.280
You, uh, there'll be people who will be happy to fund and support you.
00:27:21.880
You don't sit on the sidelines and say, you guys are racist.
00:27:31.800
The minute you start to compete and you do well and you make a movie that's a hit, everybody in Hollywood is going to imitate you.
00:27:40.860
And pretty soon you look up and race won't be relevant.
00:27:43.740
It's not lost on me that when I'm, I'm sitting here talking to a black filmmaker, Eli Steele, who just made an amazing movie.
00:27:52.300
Eli, what are your thoughts on this, on barriers to entry that may, that may be racist and overcoming them?
00:28:00.660
Um, I wrote about the, uh, the first, um, black jockeys that were on the Kentucky Derby in the 1870s, 1880s.
00:28:09.240
Well, we can't find a black actor that's small enough.
00:28:12.460
Black movies most sell, um, overseas, you know, Europeans won't watch black movies.
00:28:20.540
I also heard this from black people too, from black executives.
00:28:27.700
And so you get all of it, but what my father's saying is very true because it's very difficult to hear all these suggestions.
00:28:36.680
You know, I got married, I had kids and I almost gave up filmmaking, but you know, I had too much love for it.
00:28:43.460
I've been wanting to do it since I was like 13 years old.
00:28:46.820
So I just run on the outside and carve my own path.
00:28:57.320
When the institution basically closes the door in your face, you either quit or you find another right.
00:29:05.040
Do you think you had an advantage in having a father who I presume was raising you with this notion of,
00:29:16.840
But, you know, obviously we live in a very political world and I'm in a very liberal world.
00:29:23.620
It was definitely, you know, a barrier in many ways.
00:29:26.420
But there were many, many advantages, you know, um, you know, his love for me, his inspiration, his guidance,
00:29:33.800
the path that he carved, the path that he built upon, the path that his own father built.
00:29:44.440
Your father, uh, Shelby, your dad was a bus driver.
00:29:48.880
Uh, you, you, you both make it in this world as, as men of color.
00:29:54.200
And you make this important film with your perspective on what led to the problems in Ferguson.
00:29:59.380
And in particular, this case, Michael Brown's death and Amazon, one of the biggest companies
00:30:05.540
in America promptly turns around and says, no, we don't want it.
00:30:10.200
Now, I understand they've ultimately reversed it after a lot of public pressure, but their
00:30:14.500
first response was, you don't get to put your film on Amazon because only some black voices
00:30:21.380
And if they happen to be right-leaning, they don't matter to us at all.
00:30:33.360
You know, you, uh, you, you, I certainly on one level was not surprised.
00:30:37.880
I mean, I, I, I know the, the fascination with censorship that the big tech world, uh, has
00:30:44.940
these days, uh, but just to be rejected, the, the tone of the rejection email, uh, was really
00:30:55.940
I mean, it was like, don't, uh, don't, uh, get, think you can resubmit this, uh, don't
00:31:05.340
Don't call us up and ask what you can do to fix it.
00:31:14.040
Um, there was hate in that coming from a company, the size of Amazon to one little guy
00:31:24.800
He and his son, uh, seemed to me to ridiculous, a bit ridiculous.
00:31:30.080
Uh, it got, the story got picked up by the wall street journal, uh, did an editorial on
00:31:36.580
Um, and so then out of the blue, we get a call from Amazon saying that they somehow
00:31:42.500
had made a mistake, uh, whatever that means, and that they would, uh, uh, be happy to start
00:31:54.660
And, and, uh, I'm, I'm grateful that they made, they changed their mind.
00:31:58.440
They have a tremendous, huge, uh, platform for films.
00:32:02.720
Uh, it would have injured our, our film profoundly if they hadn't done that.
00:32:09.140
Um, and so I'm, I'm grateful for the way things turned out, but, um, it is obviously evidence
00:32:16.500
of a deep, deep problem, uh, that is now sort of in the news almost every day, the, uh, congressional
00:32:26.740
Um, but we're happy to have, have, have, uh, slipped out of the noose at least for a minute.
00:32:33.220
It's crazy how they're cracking down on anything that isn't orthodox.
00:32:38.900
You know, we've seen this with Abigail Schreier's book that touches on, um, what she says is a,
00:32:44.640
is a contagion amongst some teenage girls when it comes to becoming trans and her book is
00:32:57.080
Um, the censorship that is being laid down against people who have unorthodox views is
00:33:05.280
It's, it's very contrary to sort of fundamental principles we have in this country of, you
00:33:11.680
know, speaking more, not less when you're on controversial subjects.
00:33:15.040
How much blowback have you gotten Shelby in being, you know, a heterodox black man for not
00:33:22.940
Cause you don't, you don't sound like, uh, Ta-Nehisi Coates.
00:33:28.860
And I imagine that's posed some problems for you.
00:33:37.500
Uh, I, I, um, no longer surprised by it or, or, um, I'm kind of a known entity at this
00:33:46.200
And, uh, so how many, how many names can you call me?
00:33:50.100
Um, it was difficult when my kids, for them and then when they were younger, uh, and they,
00:33:57.380
they paid a little price and in college and so forth, uh, by, for being my, uh, my children.
00:34:03.500
Um, so I've seen this, uh, for, for a long time.
00:34:08.960
Uh, but it's only made me, um, maybe more fervent in, in, uh, what, when the work I'm
00:34:15.440
doing and, uh, it's pushed me further than I thought I would be pushed.
00:34:20.820
And so I accept my fate, uh, and it's, it's, uh, it's, as I, as I sort of preach, it's,
00:34:30.840
it's in my hands and it's, uh, uh, it's up to me to make something of it.
00:34:35.980
There's some good parts to it, some, as well as, as, uh, as well as a bunch of flack that
00:34:42.700
It's crazy that you get bullied for having views that don't line up with the, with a
00:34:48.820
very large mass of people on the other side who are very well represented, their point
00:34:52.760
of view, they don't need one additional guy, but they're insecure.
00:34:58.460
I think on a, on a, on a deep level and the anger, the, the, you know, as the object of
00:35:03.600
their anger, uh, it's, I obviously must really make them nervous.
00:35:09.240
They must know that something I'm saying has, has an element of truth in it.
00:35:16.840
They're afraid at some point they'll be made accountable for that truth.
00:35:23.420
Uh, and so, you know, their energy goes into sort of, uh, punishing people like me.
00:35:29.760
Well, um, the, you know, that, that, that voice won't be still.
00:35:37.740
Uh, and, uh, uh, I'm, I feel very comfortable, um, where I'm in the position that I'm in.
00:35:45.540
For me, you know, this is an example of, you know, I come from, you know, Jewish people
00:35:51.000
and, you know, black people and, you know, the power to be always like assuring, they
00:35:57.060
always say, you're the good Negro or you're the bad Negro.
00:36:13.860
They're picking and choosing which Negroes they want.
00:36:18.220
And that's why it's so dangerous in this world, because why do they have the power to decide
00:36:25.140
who is part of their amplified black voice platform?
00:36:34.140
And the bigger question is, why are they excluding us?
00:36:37.500
Probably the easiest answer is because we point the finger right at them.
00:36:43.920
Coming up in just one moment, an incredible exchange between Eli, Shelby and yours truly.
00:37:01.360
It has to do with Eli's hearing issue and some assumptions I made and others made.
00:37:09.560
And even Eli may have made about this process and how it might go.
00:37:19.720
Before I get to that, though, let's talk about Pure Talk.
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And now before we get back to Shelby and Eli, I want to tell you, this is a feature we
00:38:41.600
call Real Talk, where we're talking about something going on in the news, or in this
00:38:49.080
As you know, the holiday season is officially here.
00:38:52.080
And I want to tell you about a tradition we do in my family that I love.
00:38:59.520
So it's always hard to get your kids talking right around the table.
00:39:02.780
And when it's Thanksgiving, you're with extended family and they want to hear about your
00:39:06.360
life and they want to hear about your kids' lives.
00:39:08.420
And of course, you're all six feet away and, you know, wearing your masks in between bites
00:39:18.620
We do it on birthdays and we do it on Thanksgiving usually, where you go around the table and
00:39:23.660
everybody offers their rose, their bud, and their thorn.
00:39:26.240
And the way it works is you look back at the past 12 months or whatever months and you
00:39:31.760
give your rose, which is the best thing that's happened to you.
00:39:35.260
And then you give your thorn, which is the worst thing that's happened to you.
00:39:40.240
You know, the thorn of your year that you wish had not occurred.
00:39:43.600
And then you give your bud for the upcoming year ahead.
00:39:47.340
You know, the thing you feel most hopeful about.
00:39:52.400
And it's been funny to listen to their rose and buds and thorns evolve over the years,
00:39:58.600
It'll get them chatting about what's important to them.
00:40:02.880
It's a great conversation starter and I highly recommend it.
00:40:06.960
It's one of our family traditions, That and I Never Cook.
00:40:10.540
Those are our two traditions and I really highly recommend them.
00:40:16.760
And don't think it's because I now have dough because I've never cooked.
00:40:20.800
Even when I had no dough, I would scrimp together enough that I could just at least buy it at
00:40:29.560
But one time I cooked years ago, it's actually a funny story.
00:40:34.140
But Doug and I were hosting John O'Hurley and Lisa O'Hurley.
00:40:47.640
And the turkey container, the tray, it opened up.
00:41:04.440
And it got on my dog, who thankfully was a Shih Tzu.
00:41:08.780
But then the other Shih Tzu was just licking that Shih Tzu all day long because he was covered
00:41:14.500
Then we realized halfway through the dinner, this is on Thanksgiving Day, that we had left
00:41:18.180
two of the bags at the grocery store when we bought the Thanksgiving fixings.
00:41:34.000
So now I've got a very dry turkey and no gravy, people.
00:41:38.280
And I'm not exactly like, let me fix it myself.
00:41:42.120
So Doug went out to the Duane Reade, which is the grocery or the drugstore here in New
00:41:57.380
It's like this huge bowl of soup when I started that looked brown.
00:42:01.040
I just keep stirring, keep stirring as it tells me to.
00:42:09.500
And I was like, well, I don't need to have gravy as it gets smaller.
00:42:13.000
I'm like, well, Doug doesn't need to have gravy smaller.
00:42:16.060
And I'm like, well, Lisa's probably not going to have gravy.
00:42:20.460
And finally, I'm like, okay, John, here is your thimble full of gravy for your
00:42:31.320
I remember when the smoke started billowing out of the kitchen.
00:42:35.520
At one point, John yelled, we've got John George on speed done, which is this fancy restaurant
00:42:46.180
We've had many other Thanksgivings with them after that.
00:42:49.280
To their credit, they gave us another choice, but it was pre-agreed that I would order the
00:42:58.380
If you're not really a chef like me and Rose Bud Thorne.
00:43:07.200
You point out in the film that Blacks were doing okay when it comes to finding housing
00:43:16.620
and independence between the 40s and the 60s, that their numbers were moving up and in the
00:43:22.520
And then came the Great Society, and then came the housing projects, and then came the
00:43:26.920
no man in the house rule that related to welfare.
00:43:30.960
And things really started to shift another way.
00:43:33.220
And there's really not been a lot of responsibility taken for that.
00:43:38.480
It's I know it's considered verboten to even talk about in some circles.
00:43:43.360
But your whole point is that white guilt has led to some really bad decision making that
00:43:49.940
is, in essence, dehumanizing of Blacks and their agency that only sees skin color and
00:43:58.580
That's the number one thing I feel when I see the messages coming in the schools these
00:44:05.400
days, in corporate America, which is basically, you know, the white man needs to help the Black
00:44:12.640
The white man's the oppressor of the Black man.
00:44:17.500
It's all up to the white man to either shut up, get out of the way, pave the way, apologize
00:44:29.600
I'm insulted on behalf of my Black friends that I'm supposed to look at them like this.
00:44:39.040
Yeah, it's horrible because it basically says white supremacy is good because these are all
00:44:48.720
white supremacists who believe in the agency of white people and disbelieve in the agency
00:44:56.780
And so they're basically saying, we're the superior race.
00:45:04.020
And now we're going to, we want to, we don't want to abuse you anymore.
00:45:08.280
So we're going to give you this and push you into that program and push you down this street
00:45:12.800
and up that one and we're going to, we're going to agent you out of your despair, your
00:45:18.980
despondency, your weakness, your, we're going to, we're going to get you over the problem
00:45:35.720
And we're going to, therefore we're going to, we're going to agent you into a, into a better
00:45:45.340
Uh, and we've had 50, 60 years of this now, when I was growing up in the era of actual
00:45:53.700
segregation, there was no black underclass didn't exist.
00:46:02.480
Um, we were discriminated against in every single area of life day in and day out.
00:46:09.000
Um, and yet we somehow, we somehow came, we were still the agents of our fate.
00:46:16.460
My father couldn't stand the idea of public housing.
00:46:20.460
Uh, they, my, they bought these ramshackle houses.
00:46:27.120
They had a little equity built, uh, to bought another house, did the same thing.
00:46:35.840
Uh, then of course, here comes public housing, here comes welfare, here comes this.
00:46:41.280
And, uh, the oppression of white supremacy continues under the flag now of white innocence.
00:46:51.460
We're going to repress you now in the name of our innocence.
00:46:56.740
And my anger with blacks is like, hello, how long are we going to take this?
00:47:03.960
We need to say, don't you dare give us reparations.
00:47:10.100
Don't you dare think you can buy our dignity with a few bucks.
00:47:15.800
Don't you dare think you can come up with another gimcrack program and that that's going to somehow
00:47:22.960
make you, uh, not racist and you're, and you're, and you're innocent.
00:47:28.600
And blacks will get ahead when we take that attitude.
00:47:32.160
We, we take our fate back out of other people's hands.
00:47:35.820
How did things get to the point of being anti-American in their messaging?
00:47:41.200
You know, you point out in the film that Martin Luther King Jr.
00:47:45.840
Had a very different message that, that the civil rights movement wanted into America.
00:47:53.360
And, and the BLM protests want to dismantle America as it stands now.
00:48:00.060
And you have a soundbite in there from somebody saying it is time to end the American experience.
00:48:04.680
So how did we cross over from, you know, black protesters willing to.
00:48:19.880
And they keep getting, they get money in universities.
00:48:26.640
They get, uh, uh, jobs and, and HR departments and corporations.
00:48:33.420
Um, millions of people are now financially supported by this, by this argument that, that America's
00:48:40.240
evil, so there's money in it, there's profit in it.
00:48:45.600
Um, if you, if you say that America is not evil, that this is, this country has made more
00:48:53.220
moral progress in the last 50 years than any country in human history.
00:48:57.700
If you say that, uh, then you're a racist, you're a bigot.
00:49:07.240
Well, it's, it's, you know, what's the way out of this double bind?
00:49:12.760
Uh, the way out of it is that people are going to have to find some courage to stand up to
00:49:17.660
And it's going to be, it's going to be a fight because we've, we've, the, the other
00:49:27.680
Um, and, uh, the, the truth is isolated and seen as dangerous and, and so forth.
00:49:34.700
So it's going to take, it's going to take a lot of courage, but there's no other way.
00:49:40.120
I think the anti-racism, uh, movement of today is to be part of the anti-American, um, labor
00:49:49.860
in the air today, because when you reduce people to, uh, ways to skin color, you're going
00:49:57.720
against the American principle, which segregation is there, which labor is there.
00:50:05.180
And now everybody kind of thinks that anti-racism is new today.
00:50:11.520
We did this back in, um, in the seventies with affirmative action.
00:50:16.240
If you remember, affirmative action's original purpose was to go into impoverished, into the
00:50:23.960
black underclass, basically better school, better teachers, lift these people up after
00:50:30.140
segregation, after all the, after centuries of, uh, of oppression.
00:50:38.660
Well, what happened was we were not populating college campuses with black people bashing up.
00:50:45.520
So we turned from that original purpose of affirmative action to racial prefacing.
00:50:51.400
We started to racially engineer people into college campuses.
00:50:58.960
That's the, I mean, we've already been doing this for years, for decades.
00:51:02.000
And you should see what, it has not produced the level of equity that these people on the
00:51:15.640
And Royce, when you turn people into skin color and racially engineer them, you can't
00:51:21.480
turn around and say, okay, now believe in America.
00:51:27.280
And that's the biggest mistake that we've made.
00:51:30.620
Anti-racism really, really separates us from America.
00:51:39.080
And he's somebody who continues to see disparities almost solely through the eyes of race.
00:51:52.940
The Department of Justice looked into Michael Brown's shooting.
00:51:56.240
Even Eric Holder's Justice Department had to conclude, based on the eyewitness testimony
00:52:01.780
from the witnesses there, who, the vast majority of whom were black, that the hands up, don't
00:52:08.420
shoot narrative was a lie and that Officer Wilson was justified in shooting Michael Brown,
00:52:14.660
who had attacked him once and appeared to be trying to attack him a second time.
00:52:17.960
However, he was sure to condemn the Ferguson Police Department as a group in his report.
00:52:28.120
And one of the things he touched on that you mentioned in the movie is, for example, traffic
00:52:33.680
stops saying 67 percent of the population of Ferguson is black.
00:52:37.560
85 percent of the traffic stops are of blacks saying there is no other explanation for this
00:52:52.020
We hear it about, of course, police and blacks when it comes to traffic stops, pullovers, stops
00:52:59.520
and certainly shootings that have been in the news.
00:53:07.900
Did he have a point at all about the traffic stops?
00:53:11.400
He had 95 percent of the people who live in and around Ferguson are black.
00:53:20.140
So if you had, you know, 87 percent that you were ticketed, 87 percent blacks, then it's
00:53:29.420
As one person, one woman we interviewed who's married to a policeman, they ranked the policeman
00:53:40.120
The guy who wins in the Ferguson, the police department is giving out the most tickets is
00:53:50.300
And that there is some racial animus behind it.
00:53:56.460
Holder doesn't, offers no support for that whatsoever.
00:54:01.080
If you're going to give out tickets, and of course, what happened is because of Holder's
00:54:06.200
report, Ferguson stopped giving out tickets for a while.
00:54:16.300
Ferguson, they just basically gave the town over to the criminals.
00:54:23.420
Well, the whole idea of disparity, if there's a disparity, then we say it must be because
00:54:35.720
Well, the big obvious elephant in the room there is you're talking about a people that
00:54:44.540
Suddenly, they kind of, they get a, at least a gesture toward freedom in the 60s.
00:54:53.220
Four centuries of oppression is going to bring, is going to cause a deep problem of underdevelopment.
00:55:03.380
These people are not going to have the same levels of development as other people.
00:55:08.720
There are going to be disparities all over the place.
00:55:10.980
It's going to take generations for that disparity to disappear.
00:55:18.980
Also, blacks have to now figure out this, you know, we have a huge problem in underdevelopment.
00:55:28.980
It's so, it intimidates us so much, it scares us so much, that we keep running back to racism
00:55:38.560
If we can just get rid of racism, then, oh, we'll be, we'll be equal.
00:55:46.600
Well, that's, if your child is going to preschool or kindergarten and doesn't know their letters
00:55:56.280
and doesn't know their alphabet and you've never read stories to them, you've done nothing
00:56:00.760
to them, then right away, you're perpetuating a problem of underdevelopment.
00:56:07.660
We know that if kids by the fourth grade, if they can't read at that point, then the life
00:56:13.780
ahead is not, does not bode well for their, their future.
00:56:17.980
Um, because that group does not appreciate yet the extraordinary importance of, of intellectual
00:56:31.680
And that groups that do thrive in America, just absolutely thrive groups that don't,
00:56:38.580
whether it's, it's, uh, people in Appalachia or people in Harlem, they suffer.
00:56:45.040
Lower, lower socioeconomic status and poor academic performance are obviously intimately linked,
00:56:50.760
but the, but, and on the first part of the argument, I think some folks will be asking,
00:56:56.040
So given that disparity, given that 400 year history, why not create racial preferences at
00:57:03.440
I realized that it could create some problems for black students who otherwise wouldn't be
00:57:07.720
admitted to an institution, but it, it helps them create connections that'll help them for
00:57:14.460
When you do that, you create an incentive to those students by saying your races, what got
00:57:19.340
you here, not you, not your hard work, your talent, uh, your development, but your race.
00:57:30.500
But if you are back in the same old swamp, but wait, but if history is, this is the, the
00:57:39.620
This is the Kamala Harris argument that she put out in that little cartoon before the election,
00:57:44.240
that if the black person is starting, uh, 50 yards behind the white person at the beginning
00:57:51.020
of the race, shouldn't society do something to help the black person get a little closer to the
00:57:58.080
starting line when, you know, the, the, the race is begun.
00:58:02.040
That's, that's the argument behind racial preferences and so on.
00:58:05.260
They should cheer them on and say, you, you gotta, you, you, but, you know, you're going to have
00:58:10.980
to work a little harder to get up to the, to the, to become competitive.
00:58:17.280
Uh, the reality is that you're not, we're profoundly sorry for that, but right now what
00:58:24.380
You need to make sure you're, your children, when they go to school are really, really ready
00:58:30.160
to learn that you're pressuring those schools to really demand something from them, that you
00:58:36.760
are putting yourself not at the mercy of white people, but into competition with the white
00:58:44.300
As my father used to say to me back in the, in the sixties, don't go into a class the first
00:58:50.100
day of class and say, well, I want to do as well as, uh, the, the, the, any of the other
00:58:55.040
black in the class, there'll be one or two go in there and say, you want to, you want to
00:58:59.720
beat the number one guy or gal, whoever it is, go for, go for the, the whole, well, that's
00:59:12.000
And, and, uh, remember I say in that film, race is always a means to power.
00:59:18.920
Affirmative action has ruined two or three generations of blacks invested them in the
00:59:25.500
idea that their race, their victimization is their power, not their talent.
00:59:31.620
America has just simply got to stop doing that.
00:59:35.060
Stop rewarding this, this victim focused identity where no matter how high I climb in society, I'm
00:59:47.180
You, you got to be the first lady in the United States.
00:59:51.900
Why not, why not show us all the, the, the, the, uh, turns in your life where you, where
01:00:00.060
you did well and you advanced and you moved ahead because you were in charge of your own
01:00:09.660
She's basically cheerleading, asking blacks to cry the blues and beg from whites.
01:00:17.480
This, this symbiosis between black and white America where white America wants so much to
01:00:25.080
be innocent of racism is so plagued with the charge, the accusation of racism, uh, that
01:00:32.700
it just doesn't, it, it, it, it's a white America is in a kind of racial anguish, but they
01:00:41.680
They keep thinking about their anguish rather than the, the problems of, of, a group of
01:00:47.180
people who've been held down for four centuries.
01:00:52.720
It's, it's a lot easier to work to actually, to actually say the blacks reality.
01:01:03.620
That's, that is, that is a profound, that's, that's horrible.
01:01:10.180
We will be on the sidelines cheering you on, but we will never lower the standards to let
01:01:16.260
you in because the minute we do that, we give you an investment.
01:01:20.220
Your power is more your color than your character.
01:01:28.640
Um, let's, let's, let's, you, you, you beat, you beat the best on their own terms.
01:01:49.160
No, I want, I want to get, I want to get Eli into this because I think I'm thinking about
01:01:52.940
you and being a man of color, being a man who's hearing impaired, um, obviously you've
01:01:59.740
had a fair amount to deal with in your own life.
01:02:03.080
You don't seem to come from somebody who believes in seeing oneself as a victim.
01:02:08.820
So how do you, how did you, how'd you get here?
01:02:12.160
How important was attitude and state of mind to your success?
01:02:19.780
Um, I grew up in a time, I was born in a time, uh, where technology was, um, improving.
01:02:31.900
It may give you more, um, that, but it does not erase the barriers.
01:02:37.020
So in every situation I walk into, you know, I'm only, I'm the only deaf person in the room.
01:02:43.380
I'm the, um, I'm always behind the starting line.
01:02:47.080
Like even on this phone call, I'm saying, well, is there going to be video on this?
01:02:58.440
And I don't mind that because if the burden is on me and I make it happen, then that's
01:03:09.280
The fact that I can sit here and listen for one hour without any video, without any lip
01:03:18.660
It may not be for other people, but it is for me.
01:03:28.840
And that's a very simple lesson that we're staying here.
01:03:36.160
You, your individual, by taking on the challenges of life, why is it up, and taking them on
01:03:47.960
I had somebody ask me the other day, you're deaf.
01:03:54.000
You've never been around deaf people or anything like that.
01:03:56.600
And I was just kind of like, oh, I just made a film.
01:04:07.140
If you wish that you could have it easy, of course.
01:04:12.320
I'm going to be wiped out after the conversation because I could pay so much attention.
01:04:19.160
And so that's what's so important is that we need to really understand that even somebody
01:04:26.640
who is in the Black underclasses, somebody who is profoundly deaf, born deaf like me,
01:04:42.400
And America would be a much better country for that.
01:04:44.680
So, Eli, you're going to make me emotional here.
01:04:55.700
I want to make a confession to you in response to your honesty, which is when we were talking
01:05:01.960
about booking you and your dad, we discussed the fact that you're hearing impaired and how
01:05:06.920
will the audience be able to understand you since we don't have video and we can't put
01:05:12.240
words up for them to follow if if they can't understand.
01:05:17.120
And I said, are we putting him in an uncomfortable position because he he can't see me either.
01:05:23.740
And in the end, we said, let's let's let him decide.
01:05:27.700
Like if he'll tell us if he's not comfortable with this and we'll go from there.
01:05:32.220
And so to hear you say it, it is a challenge, you willingly met it, knowing it might be hard
01:05:40.500
and that now having accomplished it, you feel better about yourself.
01:05:48.040
It's just a microcosm of what else is possible for anyone feeling disadvantaged.
01:05:56.660
You've inspired me not to be paternalistic, not to not to assume someone else can't and
01:06:07.100
And I really do appreciate the fact that you gave me the chance.
01:06:12.140
I think this, um, uh, since you've been doing the publishing sheet for the film, I've had
01:06:17.440
about four people pull out, uh, because I was there.
01:06:21.280
So I really appreciate you giving me that chance.
01:06:23.700
And that's just the way you give me the chance, give everybody the chance, let them think
01:06:44.680
This young man, uh, he, well, I'll just say he, he had the worst, uh, and, um, uh,
01:06:53.460
what's the test that they measure your hearing in, in Santa Clara County, you know, huge County,
01:07:00.800
He had the worst audiogram of any kid in the history of that County.
01:07:09.120
So we're not talking about somebody who's just a little bit deaf.
01:07:12.520
Um, there's nobody else, uh, in America that I'm aware of with the degree of hearing loss
01:07:28.860
Uh, he puts himself in every situation and, and phases it down.
01:07:42.100
You know, look, can I ask you, cause I didn't actually ask this question, Eli, how are you
01:07:49.880
Um, about, um, in 2000, I got what's called a cochlear implant.
01:07:55.740
And, um, it's basically an electrode that they put into the cochlear of your ear and, uh,
01:08:04.140
And the hearing aid gave me about 15% of what you may hear.
01:08:11.260
So I think that's a testament to my parents because it took about, I was, um, dying, I was
01:08:17.660
just deaf when I was about one, from one until about four.
01:08:22.740
Despite, you know, uh, school therapy and this therapy, I never said a word.
01:08:29.020
Uh, people call my parents abusive for not putting me into sign language.
01:08:35.500
They kept the faith and eventually I said my first word.
01:08:51.640
I mean, amazing the fact that I could do this phone call.
01:08:58.920
So I am very blessed to live in a world where technology, all of that stuff needs to be possible.
01:09:09.660
I, I, it makes me want to circle back to something you said earlier, Shelby, which is
01:09:14.280
the willingness to fight, you know, to fight for yourself, to fight for what you know, you
01:09:22.420
And I think, gosh, this is a situation for so many Americans right now who are not swallowing
01:09:30.760
We're being fed by BLM and Robin DiAngelo and corporate America.
01:09:36.300
That's making us all believe we all come down to our pigmentation.
01:09:50.100
Um, well, again, I, my parents were, met and married in the civil rights movement.
01:10:03.540
Um, and so one of the things that I learned in blacks were very reluctant in the fifties
01:10:11.140
to go with, in the civil rights, my father would have to really knock on people's doors
01:10:18.940
And, and, uh, they would, uh, they would tell him he was just a troublemaker and, and, and
01:10:25.440
so forth, what I learned in the civil rights movement is that the only thing that ever really brings
01:10:32.000
change for the better is when people find their courage to, to say, uh, and be accountable for what they truly believe.
01:10:44.740
And the civil rights movement was a, uh, a high moment in human affairs of the American people
01:10:52.860
came to a point where they, they said, okay, segregation is wrong, period.
01:11:00.560
Uh, whatever that consequence that brings, it, it just brings, but we're no longer going to deny it.
01:11:06.340
We're going to have the courage to stand because before that, if you protested, you were an outsider, a radical, a troublemaker, and so forth.
01:11:17.440
White America today has pretty much lost its moral courage, its moral authority.
01:11:26.080
And it gives over to these complaints of, uh, of victimization way too easily and never asks anything in return.
01:11:38.420
Well, there's going to come a point where, where I think the masses of people of Americans,
01:11:43.520
black, white, and otherwise are going to become tired of this and find the courage to say so and act on it.
01:11:51.820
I don't think we're going to keep getting away with this.
01:11:54.660
Things that people are bound to, as time moves on to find their confidence and hold America accountable.
01:12:04.180
If you want to, if you find yourself in a situation where you are in any way playing around with lowering a standard to accommodate some demand from a minority group that's claiming victimization,
01:12:17.880
and you give in to that, then you give in to that, then you can't complain.
01:12:23.680
People have got to stand up and say, I love you.
01:12:34.580
If I lowered the standards, I'd be saying, you're not a real American.
01:12:47.880
Uh, I know you can compete in the same level everybody else competes.
01:12:53.040
Um, when people finally have the courage to enforce that, we'll, we'll all be better off.
01:12:59.540
Shelby and Eli Steele, thank you so much for being here.
01:13:13.120
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01:13:27.020
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01:13:37.440
Um, but I want to tell you, you're not going to want to miss Monday's show because we've
01:13:42.340
She is a neuroscientist who is basically forced out of her chosen profession.
01:13:52.300
And, uh, now she's a journalist who writes about it because she stuck to the science and
01:13:57.860
refused to sign on to the gender is a social construct, sort of woke ideology now.
01:14:03.360
And she says, it's not a social construct that there are two genders, male and female,
01:14:08.660
um, that there are two biological sexes, male and female.
01:14:14.520
And we're going to talk to her about why she's so adamant about that, why we're seeing the
01:14:20.260
rise of something called babies instead of babies, why some hospitals are now removing
01:14:27.380
the girl or boy designation from the little wristbands they put on infants newly born and
01:14:33.560
where our society appears to be going on something that used to be pretty simple.
01:14:39.320
Once biological sex, she's got some fascinating insights.
01:14:45.980
And in the meantime, have a wonderful holiday weekend.
01:14:56.920
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