The Megyn Kelly Show - Shocking New Kohberger Case Details About DNA Match, ＂Unknown Male＂ Blood, and Witness, with Howard Blum ｜ Ep. 1002

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00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.160 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.840 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.140 And today's bonus AM episode.

00:00:47.920 Brian Kohlberger, the suspect accused of murdering

00:00:50.720 four University of Idaho students,

00:00:53.420 is set to go to trial in August.

00:00:55.660 But in late January, there was a pre-trial hearing

00:00:59.020 and an important one.

00:01:00.000 That revealed shocking new information

00:01:02.900 that we have not heard before.

00:01:06.060 Joining me now to break down all the developments

00:01:07.660 is Howard Bloom, journalist and New York Times

00:01:09.880 best-selling author of When the Night Comes Falling,

00:01:13.600 a requiem for the Idaho student murders.

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00:02:23.380 Howard, welcome back.

00:02:24.800 I have to say, it's such a busy news time for us to be doing this.

00:02:29.320 It just shows the significance of what happened at that hearing on January 23rd and 24th.

00:02:34.180 I was like, we've got to get this on because-

00:02:36.540 Well, I appreciate it.

00:02:37.160 I mean, I don't want to overstate it, but it's possible the prosecution's case is falling apart.

00:02:41.640 It did not go particularly well for them.

00:02:43.800 Let's start with the DNA.

00:02:45.400 What happened?

00:02:45.940 Well, the way these authorities got to Kohlberger

00:02:50.540 wasn't through any other evidence at the beginning, but just a little speck of DNA,

00:02:56.920 smaller than a piece of dust that was left on the button of a knife sheath that was left behind.

00:03:03.900 They used this speck of DNA.

00:03:06.960 They processed it so that they could give it to an FBI laboratory.

00:03:10.680 The FBI laboratory then, after months of not admitting what they had done,

00:03:17.120 it was revealed in the end of January in court that they had taken this DNA

00:03:22.160 and they had uploaded it to two websites, ancestry DNA websites,

00:03:29.260 that prohibit law enforcement from using this DNA.

00:03:33.460 The FBI did this, not out of any evil reasons, but just out of their zeal.

00:03:39.680 You have to go back to the time of the killing.

00:03:42.140 It was a murder of four young children on the loose.

00:03:47.740 They had really no clues except for this DNA.

00:03:51.400 Except for this DNA, it was in many ways the perfect crime.

00:03:55.640 They had no blood evidence, really.

00:04:00.180 They had no evidence of anyone stalking these young college students.

00:04:05.900 All they had was this DNA, so they ran with it.

00:04:09.080 And this DNA allowed them to open up many other doors,

00:04:13.120 ultimately having a series of search warrants that led to the suspects,

00:04:17.900 Brian Kohlberger's phone, his car, his apartment.

00:04:21.340 But without that DNA, they couldn't have gotten these search warrants.

00:04:25.720 And now the defense is saying, wait a minute, wait a minute.

00:04:30.700 This suspect's Fourth Amendment rights were violated by the FBI's going into these prohibited websites.

00:04:39.440 You've been saying this all along.

00:04:41.540 You've been suspecting that the FBI got this match between the DNA,

00:04:46.860 the touch DNA on the knife sheath, and matched it to Kohlberger's father,

00:04:52.220 possibly by doing something they're not allowed to do,

00:04:56.500 which is use the commercial DNA websites that people like you and I might go to

00:05:02.140 if we're looking for a long-lost relative.

00:05:04.120 They have a public database.

00:05:06.320 CeCe Moore, the original creator of genetic genealogy,

00:05:11.720 talked to us about this a long time ago,

00:05:13.540 saying there's only one that's totally public.

00:05:17.120 And anyone can upload their DNA and see what's on there.

00:05:19.900 The other two are fee-for-service private companies

00:05:22.380 that are not allowed to be used by law enforcement.

00:05:25.440 Otherwise, nobody would go on there, right?

00:05:27.040 They'd be like, if I ever committed a crime or have a relative down the line

00:05:30.080 who might have committed a crime, I'm going to get them in trouble.

00:05:32.120 So there's supposed to be this hard wall.

00:05:34.660 And you said early on you suspected,

00:05:37.180 because the FBI seemed to be very cagey about this whole thing.

00:05:40.780 They didn't want to turn over the results of how they got this to anybody.

00:05:44.700 That maybe they had done something they weren't allowed to.

00:05:48.620 Go ahead.

00:05:49.500 Not only did they not want to turn over the results,

00:05:52.300 they said literally that they had ripped up the evidence of their research.

00:05:59.060 They said, we just threw it out.

00:06:00.420 Who ever heard of it in a major murder investigation,

00:06:03.380 the FBI discarding evidence?

00:06:05.740 But this is what they did.

00:06:07.080 But the defense kept on pressing and pressing.

00:06:11.400 And now they got a judge to give him the evidence.

00:06:14.200 And it proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt,

00:06:16.360 it came out in open court that the FBI violated

00:06:19.520 the protocols of these two genetic websites.

00:06:23.860 Now, how is that going to affect the case?

00:06:27.440 The judge has...

00:06:27.920 Wait, wait.

00:06:28.580 Before you answer that,

00:06:30.060 let's just show the audience what

00:06:31.560 Cole Berger's defense attorney, Ann Taylor,

00:06:34.360 yes, that's her name,

00:06:35.680 argued about this investigative genetic genealogy,

00:06:39.420 IgG evidence. 0.94

00:06:41.060 Listen to her in SOT 41.

00:06:43.400 Your Honor, our position is that the court

00:06:45.700 should suppress the IgG identification 1.00

00:06:49.580 and everything that flows from that.

00:06:52.520 This is supported by Fourth Amendment

00:06:55.500 of the United States Constitution,

00:06:58.100 due process, Article 1, Section 17

00:07:00.420 of the Idaho Constitution.

00:07:03.240 Runner, there was no warrant

00:07:04.480 for several phases of the search

00:07:06.780 that led to the IgG work,

00:07:09.240 investigative genetic genealogy.

00:07:11.440 And we think every single one of those stages,

00:07:13.660 a warrant was required,

00:07:15.500 none was given,

00:07:16.800 and so this must be suppressed.

00:07:19.980 She's saying all the goods they got

00:07:22.180 after getting that hit

00:07:24.880 have to be suppressed

00:07:26.280 and cannot be used

00:07:27.120 because they're, in essence,

00:07:28.000 the fruit of the poisonous tree.

00:07:29.020 Exactly.

00:07:30.760 And if you look at what they had before then,

00:07:33.120 there's not much except for one thing.

00:07:35.680 After Cole Berger is arrested,

00:07:38.040 he's in a Pennsylvania jail,

00:07:39.920 and they do a cheek swab.

00:07:42.280 And the DNA from that cheek swab

00:07:44.860 matches the DNA

00:07:46.360 on the button of the knife sheath.

00:07:48.560 That is pretty substantial evidence.

00:07:50.800 But if they can get that thrown out,

00:07:53.340 that will make a case

00:07:55.760 that seems pretty much a shut case

00:07:58.260 to be more open than shut.

00:08:00.940 And there's going to be a,

00:08:02.540 or it's a possibility

00:08:04.200 of a Frank's hearing.

00:08:05.800 That's a judicial process

00:08:09.860 named after a 1978 Supreme Court case

00:08:13.720 where evidence was thrown out

00:08:16.420 because the police

00:08:17.640 had falsified information

00:08:19.000 to get their warrants.

00:08:20.360 The judge has not said

00:08:21.460 he will have this Frank's hearing,

00:08:23.320 but he has raised the possibility

00:08:24.780 and he's asked the lawyers

00:08:26.180 to keep time available

00:08:27.500 to have such a hearing.

00:08:29.240 And if that's happening...

00:08:29.600 That's not what the prosecution

00:08:30.320 wanted to hear.

00:08:31.160 The prosecution wanted to hear.

00:08:32.240 There's no need for a hearing.

00:08:33.640 This is ridiculous.

00:08:35.160 You know,

00:08:35.700 irrespective of how we got

00:08:37.780 to Brian Cole Berger's father

00:08:39.460 as being related

00:08:40.500 to the person

00:08:41.160 whose DNA was on the knife sheath,

00:08:42.620 we know it is Brian Cole Berger's DNA

00:08:46.000 because we ultimately took

00:08:46.920 a cheek swab

00:08:47.640 that shows it was him.

00:08:49.860 But the,

00:08:50.120 but the,

00:08:50.560 so the problem for the prosecution

00:08:52.020 is the judge is not saying no.

00:08:53.380 He's keeping the door open.

00:08:54.240 He might actually have a hearing on this.

00:08:55.460 So he's a little,

00:08:56.040 at least a little interested.

00:08:57.220 But can I just say this

00:08:58.500 to what you just said, Howard?

00:08:59.720 The DNA,

00:09:00.620 the DNA matching Cole Berger directly

00:09:04.500 is absolutely devastating.

00:09:06.120 There's no question.

00:09:06.900 It's a terrible fact for the defense.

00:09:08.740 But as I understand her,

00:09:11.740 her argument,

00:09:12.620 Ann Taylor's,

00:09:13.740 it's that you would never have been

00:09:15.860 cheek swabbing Brian Cole Berger

00:09:17.540 if you hadn't been doing

00:09:20.060 the shenanigans

00:09:21.160 with the DNA

00:09:23.420 and 23andMe.

00:09:25.140 Like,

00:09:25.460 she's saying you can't even use

00:09:27.300 the cheek swab

00:09:28.000 because it,

00:09:28.980 it too is fruit

00:09:30.180 of the poisonous tree.

00:09:31.620 That,

00:09:32.260 that is what she's arguing.

00:09:33.580 That's part of her argument.

00:09:35.140 But also at that hearing,

00:09:36.500 something else was revealed,

00:09:38.420 which is perhaps

00:09:39.400 even more dramatic

00:09:40.440 and makes her case 0.56

00:09:41.520 even more substantial.

00:09:44.900 Okay.

00:09:45.420 So hold on.

00:09:46.680 But before we get to that,

00:09:47.480 let me finish up this part.

00:09:48.400 I know there's a lot of,

00:09:49.100 a lot of stuff to discuss.

00:09:50.520 So just so the audience knows,

00:09:51.780 that's what she's trying to argue.

00:09:52.700 She's trying to say,

00:09:53.340 everything that followed

00:09:54.600 as a result of you figuring out

00:09:56.060 that Brian Cole Berger's DNA,

00:09:57.720 his dad's DNA,

00:09:58.640 was traceable

00:10:00.060 from that knife sheath

00:10:01.640 has to be removed.

00:10:03.200 You have to get rid of it.

00:10:04.480 including the cheek swab.

00:10:06.280 Now the judge did not seem

00:10:07.940 like he was going to do that.

00:10:09.440 He seemed very into

00:10:10.700 the actual cheek swab

00:10:11.780 and he didn't sound like a man

00:10:12.760 who thinks that's fruit

00:10:13.500 of any poisonous tree.

00:10:14.700 But here he is,

00:10:15.800 Judge Hitler, 0.93

00:10:16.940 talking about that DNA match

00:10:18.560 in Sop 43.

00:10:19.220 There's a DNA match

00:10:24.240 between the DNA and the sheath

00:10:27.520 and Mr. Cole Berger.

00:10:32.720 Isn't that probable cause

00:10:34.260 every day and twice on Sunday?

00:10:37.720 Not in this context.

00:10:39.940 Not in this context

00:10:41.140 because of the IgG work. 0.62

00:10:45.600 That's, again,

00:10:46.340 she's saying the investigative

00:10:47.180 genetic genealogy,

00:10:48.240 undermines it

00:10:50.060 and makes it unusable.

00:10:51.560 Is that basically what happened?

00:10:53.660 That's basically what happened.

00:10:55.140 But also,

00:10:56.060 if they throw it out,

00:10:58.400 there's really not much there.

00:11:01.340 I mean,

00:11:02.180 you have to,

00:11:03.280 in many ways,

00:11:04.180 it was a perfect crime

00:11:05.560 except for the leaving

00:11:06.760 the knife sheath behind.

00:11:09.080 Consider,

00:11:10.140 the house was,

00:11:11.620 there was so much blood

00:11:12.680 in the house

00:11:13.560 that it was coming out

00:11:14.840 of the sides of the house.

00:11:16.440 It was coming down

00:11:17.120 the foundation

00:11:17.780 of the building

00:11:19.480 at 1122 King Road.

00:11:22.040 And yet,

00:11:22.980 no blood was ever

00:11:24.000 found on Cole Berger.

00:11:25.380 No blood was found

00:11:26.320 in his car.

00:11:27.360 No blood was found

00:11:28.240 in his apartment.

00:11:29.900 There is no evidence

00:11:31.220 also of Cole Berger

00:11:32.340 having any connection

00:11:33.560 to any of the murder victims.

00:11:35.660 There's no evidence

00:11:36.840 of him talking

00:11:37.620 to any of them,

00:11:38.600 ever being in the house,

00:11:40.820 of him stalking them

00:11:42.020 on the internet.

00:11:43.960 There's no murder weapon.

00:11:45.420 There's no motive even.

00:11:48.680 So without this

00:11:49.760 DNA evidence,

00:11:51.740 the case against

00:11:52.700 Cole Berger

00:11:53.220 becomes a lot

00:11:54.300 more problematic.

00:11:56.500 Okay,

00:11:56.660 but how about

00:11:57.100 the fact that,

00:11:57.920 I mean,

00:11:58.020 the best fact,

00:11:59.960 I think,

00:12:00.420 other than the DNA match,

00:12:01.680 is the fact that

00:12:02.700 when the police

00:12:03.280 went to arrest him

00:12:04.160 in the Poconos

00:12:04.800 in December,

00:12:05.580 this crime was committed

00:12:06.380 the month before

00:12:07.000 in November.

00:12:08.240 My God,

00:12:08.580 is it 2022 now?

00:12:09.780 I'm trying to,

00:12:10.440 I'm losing track.

00:12:11.060 Yes.

00:12:11.760 Yeah,

00:12:12.320 2022.

00:12:13.860 When they arrested him

00:12:14.880 in his home,

00:12:15.400 back in his parents'

00:12:16.080 home in December,

00:12:16.900 he was there

00:12:17.920 putting his trash

00:12:19.300 into individual

00:12:20.120 little baggies

00:12:21.060 that were being

00:12:22.540 disposed of

00:12:23.200 in the neighbor's

00:12:24.020 trash can.

00:12:24.660 That is terrible.

00:12:26.300 Very incriminating.

00:12:27.380 That is very incriminating,

00:12:29.080 yes.

00:12:29.840 But if she,

00:12:32.320 Ann Taylor,

00:12:33.000 the defense attorney,

00:12:33.760 is trying to get

00:12:34.840 that the FBI

00:12:37.240 and the police

00:12:38.080 coming into his house,

00:12:39.300 she's trying to get

00:12:40.200 that thrown out,

00:12:41.820 the terms of the,

00:12:43.160 she's claiming

00:12:43.940 it was an unlawful assault

00:12:45.540 without the necessary

00:12:47.140 warrants

00:12:47.700 to arrest him

00:12:49.660 in his house.

00:12:50.800 She's raising everything.

00:12:52.780 Of course,

00:12:53.460 as any good defense lawyer,

00:12:54.560 well,

00:12:54.700 but that one's,

00:12:55.440 I'm,

00:12:55.820 we've heard her out

00:12:56.780 on the genetic genealogy thing.

00:12:58.240 You were right

00:12:58.700 and she was right

00:12:59.340 that there was

00:12:59.800 some funny business

00:13:00.400 going on from the sound of it,

00:13:01.420 but she's,

00:13:02.580 there's no way

00:13:03.040 she's getting out

00:13:03.900 the FBI,

00:13:04.820 what they found

00:13:05.320 upon arresting him.

00:13:06.500 No way.

00:13:07.860 And it's just

00:13:08.440 a terrible damn fact.

00:13:09.720 I don't,

00:13:09.920 you know,

00:13:10.240 but go back

00:13:11.680 to your first point.

00:13:12.980 I firmly believe

00:13:14.020 Kohlberger committed

00:13:14.640 this crime,

00:13:15.280 but what's fascinating

00:13:16.460 is how good

00:13:18.640 he was

00:13:19.140 at covering it up

00:13:20.520 to your point.

00:13:21.320 There's no murder weapon

00:13:22.640 and she reiterated

00:13:23.700 these points.

00:13:24.200 So these are all updated now.

00:13:25.460 We've been speculating,

00:13:26.460 but she was on the record

00:13:27.680 with they haven't found

00:13:28.900 a murder weapon.

00:13:29.800 They did not find

00:13:30.960 any blood,

00:13:32.020 Howard,

00:13:32.260 she said this,

00:13:32.920 on Brian,

00:13:34.420 on any of his belongings,

00:13:35.880 or even anywhere

00:13:37.240 in that car

00:13:37.980 that they practically

00:13:38.940 dissected?

00:13:40.660 Yes.

00:13:41.320 I mean,

00:13:41.660 they took apart

00:13:42.500 the brake gears.

00:13:43.500 They were looking

00:13:43.960 all over for any blood,

00:13:45.460 no blood in his

00:13:46.640 student apartment

00:13:48.020 at Washington State University,

00:13:50.100 nowhere.

00:13:51.520 It was a perfect crime

00:13:53.460 in many ways,

00:13:54.500 except,

00:13:55.660 except for leaving

00:13:57.320 behind the knife sheath.

00:13:59.340 Such a massive,

00:14:00.920 massive error.

00:14:01.680 But what about

00:14:02.800 the car

00:14:03.500 and the phone evidence?

00:14:04.960 You know,

00:14:05.100 because when we read

00:14:06.200 the police affidavit

00:14:07.040 before his arrest,

00:14:07.940 it was white car,

00:14:10.140 Hyundai Elantra.

00:14:11.040 They changed the year

00:14:11.900 once they started

00:14:13.360 to narrow in

00:14:14.020 on Kohlberger

00:14:14.600 because they'd had

00:14:15.500 the years wrong.

00:14:16.820 But then they said,

00:14:17.920 okay,

00:14:18.260 it's,

00:14:18.640 yeah,

00:14:18.780 it's 15.

00:14:19.380 It's not just 16.

00:14:20.120 Anyway,

00:14:20.360 whatever his car was.

00:14:21.600 And we've seen

00:14:23.460 that car around,

00:14:24.680 you know,

00:14:25.280 the murder house

00:14:26.760 many times,

00:14:27.440 according to the cops.

00:14:28.200 and also his phone records

00:14:31.320 show that he was

00:14:32.200 in the vicinity

00:14:33.200 of the murder house

00:14:34.000 over and over,

00:14:34.980 including the,

00:14:36.260 the night before.

00:14:37.640 They didn't have him there

00:14:38.480 during the murder hours

00:14:39.320 because his phone was off.

00:14:40.200 But then the next morning

00:14:41.300 he appeared to go back

00:14:42.120 before they had found

00:14:43.200 the bodies

00:14:43.600 in the 9 a.m. hour.

00:14:44.760 So speak to that.

00:14:46.260 Here's what the defense

00:14:47.560 is going to say.

00:14:48.440 And I think it's a fairly

00:14:49.700 convincing argument,

00:14:50.940 especially in a death penalty case.

00:14:52.780 You have a white 0.92

00:14:54.220 Hyundai Elantra

00:14:55.800 by the house,

00:14:56.920 but you have no proof

00:14:58.780 that that's

00:14:59.900 Koberger's car.

00:15:01.340 You never see

00:15:02.100 the license plate

00:15:03.220 on any of the videos.

00:15:04.880 You never see

00:15:05.820 the man behind the wheel

00:15:07.400 in any of those videos.

00:15:08.940 They're all obscured.

00:15:10.480 So there are lots

00:15:11.400 of white Hyundai Elantras

00:15:12.660 around.

00:15:14.260 They can't make

00:15:15.460 that connection directly.

00:15:16.980 Then when you have

00:15:17.840 the cell phone tower

00:15:18.960 triangulation

00:15:19.860 that puts him

00:15:20.900 in the neighborhood

00:15:22.960 of the murder house,

00:15:25.220 well, it's a 10-mile radius.

00:15:27.220 In a town like Moscow,

00:15:29.120 10 miles takes up

00:15:30.780 a lot of territory,

00:15:32.060 a lot of neighborhoods.

00:15:33.520 You never have any proof

00:15:35.000 that he ever parked

00:15:36.320 in front of the house.

00:15:39.000 That his car ever came

00:15:41.320 to a halt

00:15:42.100 in front of the house.

00:15:43.420 You can speculate,

00:15:44.680 but you can't prove it.

00:15:46.380 Are these inferences

00:15:47.640 enough to condemn

00:15:49.760 a man to death?

00:15:51.480 It might be hard

00:15:52.520 for a jury.

00:15:54.400 What is the

00:15:55.160 seven-minute screw-up

00:15:57.600 on the timeline

00:15:58.640 by the cops?

00:16:00.780 Well, it seems

00:16:01.980 the cops,

00:16:02.760 when they were tracking

00:16:03.560 the white Hyundai Elantra

00:16:06.260 that night,

00:16:07.060 made an error.

00:16:08.000 They got the timelines wrong,

00:16:09.720 whether accidentally

00:16:10.840 or deliberately,

00:16:12.380 but off by seven minutes.

00:16:14.240 And they put the car

00:16:15.860 that they allege

00:16:16.560 is Kohlbergers 0.87

00:16:17.340 closer to Moscow

00:16:18.740 at the time.

00:16:20.120 But the defense

00:16:22.900 is saying that

00:16:23.620 because of this screw-up,

00:16:25.000 which no one seems

00:16:25.700 to be arguing

00:16:26.300 that the cops

00:16:26.900 got this time incorrect,

00:16:29.040 this would have allowed

00:16:29.940 Kohlberger to be driving

00:16:31.260 away from Moscow

00:16:32.660 and to this state park

00:16:34.720 where they claim

00:16:35.680 he was at the time

00:16:36.740 of the murders.

00:16:38.620 Stargazing.

00:16:39.080 That would seem to

00:16:39.460 substan...

00:16:40.280 Yes, stargazing

00:16:41.360 on a cloudy night

00:16:42.440 at four in the morning

00:16:43.680 when the temperatures

00:16:44.400 are a little below freezing.

00:16:45.900 Oh my gosh.

00:16:48.160 All right.

00:16:48.360 So it's just...

00:16:49.120 It's a screw-up

00:16:50.400 by the cops

00:16:50.960 that won't be helpful

00:16:51.760 to the prosecutors

00:16:52.620 in trying to show

00:16:53.720 this case was

00:16:54.380 done by the book,

00:16:56.060 all T's crossed,

00:16:56.860 all I's dotted.

00:16:58.440 All right.

00:16:58.900 So that's some of the stuff.

00:16:59.760 I'm amazed.

00:17:00.400 I'm amazed

00:17:00.940 that at this point

00:17:01.560 in the case

00:17:02.000 she's saying openly

00:17:03.480 there's no blood evidence

00:17:04.380 tying him to the crime.

00:17:05.640 I thought for sure

00:17:06.520 they'd find something,

00:17:08.280 you know,

00:17:08.500 that with all the searches

00:17:10.060 they did of his apartment

00:17:10.900 or his car,

00:17:12.020 his clothing,

00:17:12.640 there'd be some speck

00:17:15.580 of the four victims' blood.

00:17:17.220 This is a brutal murder

00:17:18.340 done by knife,

00:17:19.240 K-bar knife,

00:17:20.020 in the middle of the night

00:17:21.080 these four beautiful

00:17:22.380 college students

00:17:22.980 asleep in their beds

00:17:23.880 or in their rooms at least

00:17:25.500 and he is alleged

00:17:27.500 to have killed them

00:17:28.080 in the course of 12 minutes,

00:17:29.820 all four of them.

00:17:31.240 You'd get blood

00:17:32.280 all over you, Howard.

00:17:34.400 There was so much blood

00:17:35.740 in the house

00:17:36.440 that it was,

00:17:37.420 as I said before,

00:17:38.600 coming out of the foundation

00:17:39.800 of the building.

00:17:40.600 And yet,

00:17:43.620 to make it even more interesting,

00:17:45.580 more dramatic,

00:17:46.280 it was revealed

00:17:47.000 that they did find blood

00:17:48.820 in the house,

00:17:49.780 unidentified blood

00:17:50.820 in the house,

00:17:51.660 but it wasn't Kohlbergers.

00:17:53.580 No, this is big.

00:17:54.640 Oh, wait,

00:17:54.840 so wait one second

00:17:55.580 before we get to that

00:17:56.400 because that's an important

00:17:57.480 development.

00:17:58.280 But think about it

00:18:00.340 because many of us believe

00:18:01.780 that he had on

00:18:02.640 like a worker's suit

00:18:03.820 because we saw that

00:18:04.680 that was,

00:18:06.040 he bought one

00:18:06.700 via Amazon,

00:18:07.980 like a painter's suit,

00:18:09.340 you know,

00:18:09.520 that would cover up

00:18:10.040 your whole,

00:18:10.520 everything you're wearing.

00:18:11.940 And that that's,

00:18:13.060 he did that for a reason,

00:18:14.640 right?

00:18:14.800 He knew he was going

00:18:15.460 to get bloody. 0.77

00:18:16.900 But,

00:18:17.660 and maybe he had

00:18:18.340 those little booties

00:18:19.200 that, you know,

00:18:19.820 like when the heating guy

00:18:20.780 comes to fix your heater,

00:18:22.220 he puts on

00:18:22.960 before he walks

00:18:23.560 into your house.

00:18:25.920 But he would have,

00:18:28.680 like,

00:18:28.980 think about it.

00:18:29.460 He's sneaking out

00:18:30.640 of the house

00:18:30.920 covered in blood.

00:18:31.900 Where does he take

00:18:32.740 the stuff off,

00:18:33.720 right?

00:18:33.960 According to them,

00:18:35.440 the eyewitness saw him,

00:18:36.620 which would have shaken him.

00:18:37.460 He wouldn't have wanted

00:18:38.000 to be hanging out

00:18:39.000 in the house,

00:18:39.580 disrobing,

00:18:40.660 changing out

00:18:41.700 of his workman suit

00:18:42.560 and his booties

00:18:43.260 if he's wearing them.

00:18:44.420 He must have done

00:18:45.720 that in the car.

00:18:46.420 You would think

00:18:46.780 he would have done

00:18:47.200 that in the car

00:18:48.040 and then disposed

00:18:49.080 of this along

00:18:49.840 with a murder weapon

00:18:50.580 on the way home.

00:18:51.420 And we'll get

00:18:51.820 to the eyewitness,

00:18:52.700 which is the most

00:18:53.280 interesting thing

00:18:53.860 of the whole day.

00:18:54.520 But pause there.

00:18:55.580 We'll get to the blood.

00:18:56.240 We'll get to the eyewitness.

00:18:56.800 So if you put,

00:18:59.120 if you got into your car

00:18:59.980 with a bloodied jumpsuit

00:19:01.540 and a bloodied pair

00:19:02.460 of like those

00:19:03.040 slide-on booties,

00:19:04.340 there should be

00:19:05.480 blood evidence

00:19:06.220 in the car.

00:19:09.120 Yes.

00:19:10.280 And there was

00:19:11.060 nothing in his trunk.

00:19:12.200 They've taken the car

00:19:13.520 apart top from bottom.

00:19:15.000 The only scenario

00:19:16.060 possible is that

00:19:17.060 before he got

00:19:17.820 into his car,

00:19:18.840 he had a garbage bag.

00:19:20.260 He put all the clothes

00:19:22.000 he was wearing

00:19:22.500 in a garbage bag

00:19:23.520 and drove off

00:19:25.700 basically in his underwear

00:19:28.200 and that was clean.

00:19:30.940 But where is

00:19:31.780 the clothes

00:19:32.540 he was wearing

00:19:33.080 that night?

00:19:33.620 Where is the garbage bag?

00:19:34.900 Where is the murder weapon?

00:19:36.480 No one can find it.

00:19:37.980 They've been looking

00:19:38.780 for two years now,

00:19:39.780 two and a half years,

00:19:40.800 and they don't have a trace.

00:19:43.100 I mean,

00:19:43.640 he did quite a job

00:19:45.620 of disposing

00:19:46.860 of that murder weapon

00:19:48.360 and those clothes.

00:19:49.080 That's all you'd need.

00:19:49.720 I mean,

00:19:49.840 it'd be ballgame.

00:19:50.420 He'd be done.

00:19:51.040 He'd be total toast.

00:19:52.480 I've often wondered

00:19:53.140 if he managed

00:19:53.580 to put it up

00:19:54.340 in a tree somehow,

00:19:55.360 like instead of down,

00:19:56.500 instead of digging ground,

00:19:57.940 which if they'd gotten

00:19:58.880 enough search crews

00:19:59.980 out there

00:20:00.300 might have been identified.

00:20:02.280 Is there any chance

00:20:02.900 he went up with it?

00:20:03.140 I think he probably

00:20:03.700 threw it into the Snake River.

00:20:05.600 He would drive him back.

00:20:07.560 The Snake River

00:20:08.500 sort of came by the territory.

00:20:10.320 He could have just

00:20:10.860 tossed it anywhere near there.

00:20:13.260 It's so risky

00:20:13.920 that he came back up.

00:20:14.940 Or it is possible

00:20:14.960 that he went up

00:20:16.060 to that park

00:20:16.960 that he's using

00:20:17.560 as his alibi.

00:20:18.520 He could have gone

00:20:18.980 to that park

00:20:19.540 after the murder

00:20:20.380 as he's driving around,

00:20:21.820 perhaps.

00:20:22.140 and then

00:20:23.120 left it somewhere

00:20:24.300 up there.

00:20:25.520 It's just mind-boggling.

00:20:26.540 There's so much blood.

00:20:27.460 The house is bleeding.

00:20:28.720 Four dead,

00:20:30.000 young 20s,

00:20:31.800 and, you know,

00:20:32.300 teenagers.

00:20:34.080 In the course of 12 minutes,

00:20:35.420 there would be blood

00:20:35.980 all over you.

00:20:36.680 How did he get it

00:20:38.900 to the point

00:20:39.320 where there was

00:20:40.140 no blood in the car?

00:20:41.660 That's a big mystery

00:20:42.580 for me.

00:20:43.000 It's a big question

00:20:43.720 in this case.

00:20:44.300 Okay, but let's talk about...

00:20:45.080 That would be a big question

00:20:45.420 for the jury.

00:20:46.020 Yeah, on the subject

00:20:48.060 of blood,

00:20:48.760 what you were going to say

00:20:49.520 we learned about,

00:20:50.340 those two other spots

00:20:51.840 of blood.

00:20:52.660 Yeah.

00:20:53.340 In the course

00:20:54.240 of the hearing

00:20:54.800 on January 23rd,

00:20:57.360 Ann Taylor,

00:20:58.740 Kohlberger's attorney,

00:20:59.880 revealed that there

00:21:00.960 has been blood

00:21:02.520 found in the house

00:21:03.540 belonging to two

00:21:04.680 unknown males.

00:21:06.480 The blood was found

00:21:07.460 on a banister,

00:21:08.760 a handrail,

00:21:09.680 going up to the

00:21:10.380 second floor

00:21:11.100 and also

00:21:12.080 inside a glove

00:21:14.540 outside the front

00:21:16.340 of the house.

00:21:18.440 Blood

00:21:18.920 from two unknown people.

00:21:21.760 Now, this was

00:21:22.600 a party house,

00:21:23.800 so you can imagine

00:21:24.400 there'd be fingerprints

00:21:25.100 on the handrail,

00:21:26.460 but what reason

00:21:27.180 is there for blood

00:21:28.060 and what reason

00:21:29.000 is there to be blood

00:21:30.420 on the glove?

00:21:32.260 And if, you know,

00:21:33.500 they would belong

00:21:34.120 to someone who had

00:21:34.840 gone to the house

00:21:35.620 during one of the parties,

00:21:36.860 well, how hard

00:21:37.560 would it have been

00:21:38.100 for the authorities

00:21:39.320 to track down

00:21:40.040 the fraternity boys

00:21:41.900 who came in

00:21:42.800 and out of the house

00:21:43.600 and getting blood samples

00:21:45.200 from them?

00:21:46.140 But to this date,

00:21:47.160 two and a half years later,

00:21:48.420 they still have not

00:21:49.220 been able to identify

00:21:50.300 the blood.

00:21:51.680 When the judge heard this,

00:21:53.820 he said in open court,

00:21:55.380 are you saying

00:21:56.140 that Kohlberger

00:21:57.320 had other people

00:21:58.520 working with him?

00:21:59.540 This doesn't mean

00:22:01.000 Kohlberger wasn't involved,

00:22:02.700 but there could have

00:22:03.500 been accomplices.

00:22:06.040 Accomplices,

00:22:06.860 this throws out,

00:22:08.000 you know,

00:22:08.500 a new mystery

00:22:09.960 into the case.

00:22:11.920 And here is how

00:22:12.640 Ann Taylor is using it.

00:22:14.660 She says the real question

00:22:16.320 is how did the knife sheath

00:22:18.840 get there?

00:22:20.380 She is now going to argue

00:22:22.460 in the course of the trial

00:22:23.760 that these two unknown male,

00:22:27.660 either one of them

00:22:28.560 or both of them,

00:22:29.420 put the knife sheath

00:22:30.860 on the bed

00:22:31.860 they were involved

00:22:33.260 in the murder,

00:22:34.300 and Kohlberger,

00:22:35.280 prior to the murder,

00:22:36.600 had somehow innocently

00:22:37.880 touched the knife sheath.

00:22:40.920 The DNA on the knife sheath

00:22:42.940 is just touch DNA.

00:22:45.380 And she is claiming

00:22:46.240 that,

00:22:46.820 or will claim

00:22:47.640 at the trial

00:22:49.000 that this was done

00:22:49.840 innocently

00:22:50.500 by Kohlberger.

00:22:52.100 It's

00:22:52.560 an argument

00:22:54.540 that can raise

00:22:55.180 a lot of doubts,

00:22:56.080 I believe,

00:22:56.620 in a jury's mind.

00:22:57.800 And the prospect

00:22:58.560 that there could have been

00:23:00.780 accomplices in the murder

00:23:01.980 further complicates the case.

00:23:03.980 Did the prosecution,

00:23:07.660 did the FBI

00:23:08.240 do any genetic genealogy

00:23:10.120 on the DNA

00:23:10.860 from the blood?

00:23:13.840 All I know

00:23:15.160 is what was revealed

00:23:16.060 in the court,

00:23:16.820 and the court referred

00:23:17.920 to it as unknown males.

00:23:21.140 And, you know,

00:23:22.800 it seems that they can't

00:23:24.040 track it down.

00:23:24.620 Any theories on how

00:23:25.960 not one,

00:23:26.800 but two men's DNA

00:23:28.880 got on this crime scene,

00:23:30.460 Howard?

00:23:31.260 Well, I'll throw out

00:23:32.300 a hypothesis,

00:23:32.960 and again,

00:23:33.760 it's just a hypothesis,

00:23:35.260 and maybe it's

00:23:35.900 a sketchy one,

00:23:36.880 but I believe

00:23:38.400 Kohlberger was guilty.

00:23:39.620 I can't get around

00:23:40.460 the cheek swab DNA

00:23:41.900 that ties him there.

00:23:43.280 So if he was out

00:23:44.340 to commit

00:23:44.980 the perfect crime,

00:23:46.600 if he was a student

00:23:47.760 of forensics,

00:23:50.520 he could have taken

00:23:52.360 a vial of blood

00:23:53.520 with him.

00:23:54.420 He could have put it

00:23:55.180 on the banister.

00:23:56.060 He could have taken

00:23:56.660 a glove

00:23:57.340 with blood

00:23:58.240 already embedded in it

00:24:00.600 and left it

00:24:01.300 at the crime scene,

00:24:02.080 and he could have

00:24:02.880 done this deliberately

00:24:04.040 to put the police

00:24:06.320 and the authorities

00:24:07.040 to look for

00:24:08.020 two other people,

00:24:09.520 and he would have,

00:24:10.240 meanwhile,

00:24:10.660 been just

00:24:11.140 gotten away with it,

00:24:13.200 and it all would have

00:24:13.960 worked

00:24:14.320 if he hadn't left

00:24:15.820 the knife sheath

00:24:16.460 behind.

00:24:16.920 It's a fascinating theory.

00:24:21.060 All I could think of

00:24:22.440 when you were saying it

00:24:23.280 was, of course,

00:24:24.180 the famous Johnny Cochran,

00:24:25.700 if the glove doesn't fit,

00:24:27.500 you must acquit.

00:24:29.040 Right.

00:24:29.300 And I bet you anything

00:24:30.420 that glove does not fit

00:24:31.700 Brian Kohlberger's hand.

00:24:34.420 And, you know,

00:24:35.140 if this is true, right?

00:24:36.140 Like, what if he,

00:24:37.960 as this, you know,

00:24:38.620 he's just getting his PhD

00:24:39.960 in criminology.

00:24:41.480 He's a TA in criminology.

00:24:43.580 All he does is study crime,

00:24:45.000 and apparently

00:24:45.420 he was very good,

00:24:46.420 a very good student of it,

00:24:47.980 very annoying

00:24:48.880 and irritating

00:24:49.580 to everybody he worked with

00:24:50.620 at Washington University.

00:24:53.500 But what if,

00:24:55.100 what if he really did do that?

00:24:56.280 What if somehow

00:24:56.740 he had access

00:24:57.300 to somebody's blood?

00:24:58.140 I don't know

00:24:58.400 how he would have gotten it,

00:24:59.220 but there is some speculation

00:25:00.780 this may not have been

00:25:01.600 his first crime.

00:25:02.560 If this was his crime,

00:25:03.740 it was so meticulous

00:25:04.660 and well-handled.

00:25:05.860 Perhaps this wasn't

00:25:06.680 his first rodeo.

00:25:08.280 And what if,

00:25:09.480 what if that really was

00:25:10.480 like an homage almost?

00:25:12.300 You know,

00:25:12.620 the two gloves,

00:25:13.500 reasonable doubt.

00:25:15.720 Right.

00:25:16.400 And,

00:25:16.760 and it would have worked.

00:25:18.140 And,

00:25:18.600 you know,

00:25:19.220 the police to this day

00:25:20.280 can't identify

00:25:21.100 whose blood that was.

00:25:22.520 And again,

00:25:23.200 if he hadn't left

00:25:24.040 the knife sheath there,

00:25:25.780 I don't think

00:25:26.780 they would have been able

00:25:27.540 to ever get to him.

00:25:29.600 My God,

00:25:30.460 such a colossal error

00:25:32.500 on his part.

00:25:33.400 I,

00:25:33.660 I know this is a weird

00:25:35.300 place to go,

00:25:36.040 but I,

00:25:36.500 I'd give anything

00:25:37.460 to have been there

00:25:39.620 when he realized

00:25:40.800 he forgot it.

00:25:41.680 You know,

00:25:42.840 to see the look,

00:25:43.820 the look come

00:25:44.900 over his face

00:25:45.640 when he realized

00:25:46.300 his perfect crime

00:25:47.140 had been foiled

00:25:48.040 by him.

00:25:50.100 Losing something

00:25:50.980 as basic

00:25:51.800 as the knife sheath,

00:25:53.460 as incriminating

00:25:54.680 as the knife sheath,

00:25:56.060 and then just praying

00:25:56.920 to God

00:25:57.500 that all the times

00:25:58.440 he handled it

00:25:59.060 with gloves on

00:25:59.880 protected him

00:26:01.080 from fingerprints

00:26:02.260 or anything

00:26:02.700 that would tie him

00:26:03.520 to it,

00:26:04.140 and yet he wasn't

00:26:05.180 careful enough.

00:26:06.780 And yet,

00:26:08.180 if his lawyers

00:26:08.860 can get the evidence

00:26:10.180 on the knife sheath

00:26:11.180 thrown out

00:26:12.180 because of FBI

00:26:13.660 overzealousness,

00:26:17.400 it can turn

00:26:18.840 the whole case

00:26:19.820 upside down,

00:26:21.760 and an innocent man

00:26:22.660 could be found,

00:26:23.660 I mean,

00:26:23.980 a guilty man

00:26:24.660 could be found

00:26:25.240 not innocent,

00:26:27.220 but not guilty.

00:26:28.320 Not guilty.

00:26:29.020 All right,

00:26:29.160 now we have to talk

00:26:29.660 about the eyewitness,

00:26:30.580 but before we do,

00:26:31.640 I want to say this.

00:26:32.380 This is the first time

00:26:32.860 I really thought

00:26:34.280 about the DNA

00:26:36.260 now that they've been caught.

00:26:38.280 Right?

00:26:38.440 The FBI,

00:26:39.320 they shouldn't have used

00:26:40.320 those private company databases.

00:26:43.100 They did.

00:26:44.180 They're obviously much bigger

00:26:45.380 because a lot more people

00:26:46.140 would give their DNA

00:26:47.720 if they knew

00:26:48.180 it was going to stay private

00:26:49.320 and not be available

00:26:50.020 to law enforcement.

00:26:51.120 So they did,

00:26:52.080 and that's how they found

00:26:52.720 Brian Kohlberger's dad.

00:26:55.120 To me,

00:26:56.080 there's actually no chance

00:26:57.540 of the judge suppressing

00:26:59.120 the genetic genealogy,

00:27:01.780 the touch DNA,

00:27:02.540 or anything

00:27:02.980 because of that,

00:27:03.980 because that is a violation

00:27:06.620 of the terms of service.

00:27:08.020 I assume it's Ancestry DNA

00:27:09.260 and 23andMe.

00:27:10.140 I don't know,

00:27:10.700 but those are the two big ones.

00:27:11.900 It's MyHeritage.

00:27:12.860 It's MyHeritage DNA.

00:27:14.320 That was the one site

00:27:15.160 that was cited in court.

00:27:16.880 Okay.

00:27:17.700 So that's a violation

00:27:19.640 of the terms of service

00:27:20.640 of that company.

00:27:22.780 That company has rules

00:27:24.000 that law enforcement's

00:27:25.220 not supposed to go on there.

00:27:26.820 But I don't think

00:27:28.600 there's a law

00:27:29.380 saying you've broken

00:27:30.280 the law as a cop

00:27:31.280 if you go on there.

00:27:32.580 It's just like the cop

00:27:33.760 violated a term of service

00:27:36.860 of a private company.

00:27:38.180 So that's between

00:27:39.400 the cop and the company.

00:27:41.260 Maybe the police department

00:27:43.540 gets sued over that.

00:27:45.920 But I don't see

00:27:46.500 how that helps

00:27:47.080 the defendant

00:27:47.780 whose DNA was uploaded.

00:27:51.320 I agree with you.

00:27:52.480 I think they're just

00:27:53.640 trying to create

00:27:54.440 as many arguments

00:27:55.300 as they can

00:27:56.080 to force the defense

00:27:58.380 trying to force the issue.

00:27:59.480 I do think

00:28:00.440 Kohlberger's relatives

00:28:01.400 if they wanted to

00:28:02.540 could sue the police

00:28:04.260 department,

00:28:05.200 the FBI

00:28:05.660 who did this.

00:28:07.180 I think the FBI

00:28:07.940 agents who did this

00:28:09.200 could be reprimanded

00:28:10.560 by the Justice Department.

00:28:12.600 Those things could happen.

00:28:13.920 But I don't think

00:28:14.640 it will affect

00:28:15.520 Kohlberger's case.

00:28:16.920 But again,

00:28:17.600 I was totally surprised

00:28:19.480 that the judge

00:28:20.060 left open

00:28:21.000 the possibility

00:28:21.760 of a Frank's hearing.

00:28:22.620 And if this happens,

00:28:24.140 if there is

00:28:24.760 a Frank's hearing,

00:28:25.860 then it's potentially

00:28:27.300 a whole new ballgame.

00:28:29.600 So interesting.

00:28:30.620 Okay, let's get

00:28:31.180 to Dylan Mortensen,

00:28:32.700 right,

00:28:33.060 who is the eyewitness.

00:28:36.080 He went in

00:28:37.220 in the middle of the night.

00:28:38.680 He killed

00:28:39.160 four roommates.

00:28:41.480 But there was

00:28:42.020 one roommate,

00:28:42.700 there's another roommate

00:28:43.780 who wasn't there

00:28:44.380 and there was

00:28:44.900 this roommate,

00:28:46.240 Dylan,

00:28:46.580 shown here.

00:28:47.540 And she is what

00:28:48.500 they called

00:28:49.040 an eyewitness

00:28:49.800 in the affidavit.

00:28:51.300 She said

00:28:52.280 she saw a man

00:28:53.800 of medium build

00:28:54.620 with bushy eyebrows

00:28:56.820 wearing like a COVID mask

00:28:58.240 that they made

00:28:59.700 eye contact

00:29:00.340 with one another.

00:29:01.080 She was frozen

00:29:01.720 in a frozen shock phase.

00:29:04.320 And he went by her.

00:29:06.500 She went back

00:29:07.300 into her room.

00:29:07.960 She locked the door.

00:29:08.820 She stayed in her room

00:29:09.960 until almost noon

00:29:11.080 the next day

00:29:11.940 as her roommates

00:29:12.640 were bleeding to death.

00:29:14.740 No one can understand

00:29:15.740 the decision making,

00:29:16.980 but no one's been

00:29:18.120 in such a situation.

00:29:19.180 I don't understand

00:29:20.220 what happened

00:29:20.700 with Dylan.

00:29:21.160 No one does.

00:29:21.940 But talk about

00:29:24.040 like your witness collapsing.

00:29:27.100 She may not even be able

00:29:28.500 to give the prosecution

00:29:29.420 what I just said.

00:29:32.200 Exactly.

00:29:32.980 What happened was

00:29:34.040 what you related

00:29:35.080 was happened

00:29:35.820 in the first interview

00:29:37.220 the police had

00:29:38.520 with Dylan

00:29:39.620 over that week

00:29:42.080 and the next week

00:29:43.140 that followed.

00:29:43.860 There were three

00:29:44.360 more interviews.

00:29:45.560 Those three interviews,

00:29:46.880 she seemed to change

00:29:48.720 her story.

00:29:49.840 She said that perhaps

00:29:50.960 it was sort of a dream

00:29:52.080 she was seeing.

00:29:53.260 She couldn't be sure.

00:29:55.020 Then she said

00:29:55.780 that one of the victims

00:29:57.080 had gone down the stairs

00:29:58.560 and that wasn't possible

00:29:59.980 because the victim

00:30:00.740 had died in her bed.

00:30:03.260 And then she admitted

00:30:04.640 finally that she was

00:30:06.140 just too drunk.

00:30:07.480 Too drunk

00:30:08.120 was the words

00:30:08.700 that Ann Taylor used 0.60

00:30:09.900 to come to any

00:30:11.360 reasonable

00:30:12.300 consideration

00:30:15.060 of what happened

00:30:15.880 that night.

00:30:17.200 And then finally

00:30:17.940 on the fourth interview

00:30:19.040 just before they were

00:30:20.140 going to arrest

00:30:22.020 Koberger in Pennsylvania

00:30:23.060 the Idaho cops

00:30:25.180 showed her a picture

00:30:25.980 of Koberger

00:30:26.660 and asked

00:30:27.620 can you identify him?

00:30:29.380 And she said

00:30:30.400 no, I can't.

00:30:33.220 And that really

00:30:34.200 really weakens

00:30:36.300 her use as a witness 0.97

00:30:38.000 between being too drunk

00:30:39.800 between saying

00:30:41.160 that she might have

00:30:41.840 been dreaming

00:30:42.340 the whole thing

00:30:43.200 and then not being able

00:30:44.820 to identify

00:30:46.000 the photograph.

00:30:47.760 Well, the prosecution's

00:30:50.020 big witness

00:30:51.000 has, I don't even know

00:30:52.840 if she'll testify

00:30:53.500 at the trial.

00:30:54.460 I don't know

00:30:54.800 if she will either

00:30:55.320 and that may have been

00:30:56.040 the point of her

00:30:57.720 changing her testimony.

00:30:59.740 Like picture a scenario

00:31:00.660 in which she's just 0.76

00:31:01.220 too terrified

00:31:01.820 to sit in a courtroom

00:31:03.240 across from this guy

00:31:04.300 and also in front

00:31:06.340 of the public

00:31:06.880 which

00:31:07.260 I mean,

00:31:08.360 she didn't have

00:31:08.700 anything to do

00:31:09.040 with these crimes.

00:31:09.800 It's just, you know,

00:31:10.340 there's a fair amount

00:31:11.040 of like

00:31:11.400 what kind of a person

00:31:13.000 would go back

00:31:13.520 into their room

00:31:14.160 and not call 911

00:31:15.640 after, you know,

00:31:17.940 she's saying

00:31:18.620 she's so afraid

00:31:19.860 of this person

00:31:20.360 she went into shock.

00:31:21.700 You know,

00:31:22.180 it's just hard

00:31:22.680 to understand.

00:31:23.340 I'm not trying

00:31:23.880 to be unforgiving

00:31:24.720 toward her.

00:31:25.340 I don't want to

00:31:27.000 you know,

00:31:27.720 pun her character. 0.89

00:31:29.120 I mean,

00:31:29.360 who knows what's

00:31:29.940 going on

00:31:30.440 in anyone's mind.

00:31:31.940 But not only

00:31:32.700 does she not

00:31:33.220 call the police

00:31:33.940 for eight hours,

00:31:35.060 the first people

00:31:35.760 she calls

00:31:36.440 are not an ambulance,

00:31:38.220 not the police,

00:31:39.360 but she calls

00:31:39.980 fraternity people

00:31:41.380 to come and come

00:31:42.420 to the house.

00:31:43.240 They come

00:31:44.000 and they call

00:31:45.100 the police.

00:31:47.080 And they are

00:31:47.740 the ones we believe

00:31:48.500 now, Howard,

00:31:49.000 who found the bodies?

00:31:49.780 Yes.

00:31:52.040 There's a new video

00:31:53.220 that just was released

00:31:55.000 last week

00:31:55.800 and you can see

00:31:56.980 Ethan's twin brother,

00:31:58.620 there actually were

00:31:59.140 triplets,

00:32:00.120 sitting outside the house

00:32:02.020 the moment when

00:32:02.580 the police arrived

00:32:03.380 and he's wearing

00:32:03.920 a pink sweatshirt

00:32:05.300 sitting by a dumpster

00:32:06.460 with his head

00:32:07.520 in his hands.

00:32:08.800 It's a very poignant video.

00:32:11.160 Wow.

00:32:12.100 So she,

00:32:12.580 because that was always

00:32:13.280 one of the big mysteries

00:32:14.060 that it was somebody else,

00:32:15.820 it wasn't Dylan

00:32:16.460 who called 911

00:32:17.300 when ultimately

00:32:18.600 the authorities were called

00:32:19.620 and we didn't know

00:32:20.120 who it was,

00:32:21.060 but now we believe

00:32:22.060 it was the fraternity brothers

00:32:23.600 who she called

00:32:24.420 to come over to the house.

00:32:25.120 Yes.

00:32:25.620 The fraternity brother,

00:32:26.660 the actual fraternity brother

00:32:27.700 who made the call

00:32:29.320 was Ethan's best friend

00:32:31.660 and the police

00:32:33.540 have never released

00:32:34.400 that 911 call.

00:32:37.060 I imagine it will be

00:32:38.000 played at the trial.

00:32:40.320 That is unbelievable.

00:32:41.740 So she is saying

00:32:43.620 she doesn't know

00:32:44.580 if she actually saw him

00:32:46.340 or if it was her mind

00:32:48.440 playing with her.

00:32:50.180 She conceded that

00:32:50.960 she had a lot to drink

00:32:52.020 and was too inebriated

00:32:53.260 to remember anything

00:32:54.240 that happened

00:32:54.880 that night

00:32:55.840 with any authority

00:32:56.620 and when they showed her

00:32:58.340 a photo of Kohlberger

00:32:59.340 after the fact,

00:33:00.140 she failed to identify him

00:33:01.820 as the intruder

00:33:02.540 she had seen.

00:33:03.520 These are terrible facts.

00:33:06.540 Not a very good witness.

00:33:08.660 No, no.

00:33:10.220 She's not going to be

00:33:10.920 helpful at all

00:33:11.860 and it's unfortunate.

00:33:13.380 Their case doesn't

00:33:14.160 rise or fall on her, 0.70

00:33:15.940 but boy,

00:33:17.420 you'd much rather

00:33:18.260 have her say,

00:33:19.380 I'll never forget

00:33:20.480 those bushy eyebrows

00:33:21.440 and if I see those eyes again,

00:33:23.060 I'll know them

00:33:23.740 and then say,

00:33:24.980 there they are

00:33:26.440 right there

00:33:27.220 at defense table.

00:33:29.100 Right.

00:33:29.720 And what's making

00:33:30.860 all these doubts

00:33:32.500 about the case

00:33:33.420 have even more weight,

00:33:35.560 there's a bill

00:33:36.360 that's just been introduced

00:33:37.380 in the Idaho legislature

00:33:38.820 was at the beginning

00:33:40.280 of January

00:33:41.100 where right now

00:33:43.520 the death penalty

00:33:44.720 is administered

00:33:45.860 through a chemical injection

00:33:47.160 and then if the chemicals

00:33:48.340 aren't available,

00:33:49.480 then there is a firing squad.

00:33:51.380 Well, the Idaho

00:33:52.200 new bill

00:33:53.560 wants to get rid

00:33:54.480 of the chemical injections

00:33:56.100 and just make it

00:33:56.900 a firing squad.

00:33:58.660 Wow.

00:33:59.360 They are demanding

00:34:01.140 their pound of flesh

00:34:02.920 in a sense

00:34:03.800 and that's going

00:34:05.440 to, you know,

00:34:06.100 going to weigh

00:34:07.080 on the jury too,

00:34:08.540 I think.

00:34:10.560 Wow.

00:34:11.620 I don't know.

00:34:12.380 I'm fine

00:34:13.080 with the death penalty.

00:34:13.900 I really am.

00:34:14.720 Like O'Reilly

00:34:15.300 always used to say

00:34:15.900 he was against it

00:34:16.460 because he thought

00:34:17.820 it was too easy

00:34:19.120 on the defendant.

00:34:20.100 You know,

00:34:20.240 he wanted them

00:34:20.700 to suffer in prison.

00:34:21.700 I just feel like

00:34:22.320 if Brian Colbert

00:34:23.240 committed these crimes,

00:34:24.860 he killed these four

00:34:25.560 young, beautiful people

00:34:27.080 in the prime

00:34:27.620 of their lives,

00:34:28.400 I'd have absolutely

00:34:29.640 no qualms at all

00:34:30.420 seeing him shot down

00:34:31.240 by a firing squad.

00:34:32.100 I might actually

00:34:32.600 celebrate it.

00:34:34.540 Well, you might

00:34:35.220 be able to get

00:34:35.620 on the jury then.

00:34:37.380 Well, maybe

00:34:38.200 I'll at least

00:34:38.580 go out there.

00:34:39.420 I don't know.

00:34:39.640 I just feel like

00:34:40.060 I have no empathy

00:34:41.260 for a person like that.

00:34:42.160 Again, it's not

00:34:42.700 totally consistent

00:34:43.320 with my Catholic faith,

00:34:44.500 but that's just

00:34:46.060 how I genuinely feel.

00:34:47.020 I just feel like

00:34:47.680 those people

00:34:48.400 shouldn't be allowed

00:34:48.900 to roam the earth

00:34:49.540 any longer,

00:34:50.220 but I have to be honest.

00:34:52.220 I don't like the fact

00:34:53.340 that all the supporting

00:34:54.200 evidence is falling apart.

00:34:56.400 And, you know,

00:34:57.480 when we talk about

00:34:58.320 how the cheek swab

00:34:59.380 matched Brian Kohlberger,

00:35:01.140 what we're saying

00:35:02.040 is the cheek

00:35:03.720 Brian Kohlberger's DNA

00:35:05.660 was definitely

00:35:07.140 on the knife sheath.

00:35:08.360 That's what that proves.

00:35:09.880 It was his DNA

00:35:11.500 on the knife sheath.

00:35:12.580 But let's be honest,

00:35:14.060 all that really proves

00:35:14.960 is that he touched

00:35:16.420 that knife sheath

00:35:17.280 at some point.

00:35:18.920 It does not

00:35:19.320 prove murder.

00:35:20.800 Exactly.

00:35:21.520 Ann Taylor's big question

00:35:23.000 and what her defense 0.75

00:35:24.740 is all going to be

00:35:25.520 based around

00:35:26.140 is how did the knife sheath

00:35:28.600 get in that bedroom? 0.85

00:35:30.320 Who could have put it there?

00:35:31.680 It wasn't Brian Kohlberger.

00:35:34.360 Right.

00:35:35.180 And if there's,

00:35:37.020 you know,

00:35:37.300 if the car evidence

00:35:38.500 is falling apart,

00:35:39.480 right,

00:35:39.660 like it's true,

00:35:40.360 you can never see

00:35:40.980 the driver

00:35:41.520 nor the license plate.

00:35:44.780 Right?

00:35:45.280 You can't see

00:35:45.600 the license plate

00:35:46.160 in any of these videos.

00:35:46.660 You can't see

00:35:47.000 the license plate.

00:35:47.740 You can't see

00:35:48.140 the driver.

00:35:48.920 And it took the FBI

00:35:50.020 three shots

00:35:51.540 until they were able

00:35:52.580 to identify the car.

00:35:54.160 So Ann Taylor 1.00

00:35:56.440 is going to argue

00:35:57.140 it took the FBI

00:35:58.300 three times.

00:35:59.320 Maybe it should have

00:36:00.220 taken them four times

00:36:01.280 and they would have

00:36:01.740 finally gotten it right.

00:36:03.920 And then the cell phone

00:36:05.680 hits,

00:36:06.980 they're helpful,

00:36:08.460 but they're not ballgame.

00:36:10.660 But without a motive,

00:36:12.080 without a connection.

00:36:13.640 Go ahead.

00:36:13.940 What were you going to say?

00:36:15.240 The cell phone hits

00:36:16.360 or 10 miles

00:36:17.100 in a town like Moscow.

00:36:19.000 You could be,

00:36:19.660 you know,

00:36:20.520 on the other side of town

00:36:21.560 seeing someone.

00:36:22.980 I mean,

00:36:23.160 that's what Ann Taylor 0.93

00:36:24.120 said at the hearing.

00:36:24.900 Did the prosecution

00:36:25.460 push back at that,

00:36:26.640 on that at all?

00:36:27.220 Because I've definitely

00:36:27.900 heard prosecutors argue,

00:36:29.080 no,

00:36:29.260 they can be more specific

00:36:30.420 than that.

00:36:31.440 It was so interesting

00:36:32.700 to me at the hearing.

00:36:34.280 The prosecution

00:36:34.800 didn't really argue

00:36:37.040 any of her points.

00:36:38.200 I mean,

00:36:38.640 when she said

00:36:39.300 it was an outright lie,

00:36:41.700 that was her words,

00:36:42.660 outright lie,

00:36:43.700 that he had stalked

00:36:44.780 any of the victims,

00:36:45.540 they didn't argue.

00:36:47.120 They went along with that.

00:36:48.460 That there was no blood evidence,

00:36:49.780 they didn't argue.

00:36:50.780 There were no dog hairs

00:36:51.900 found anywhere on Kohlberger.

00:36:54.020 They didn't argue.

00:36:55.160 They seemed to be

00:36:56.040 conceding all these points

00:36:57.880 except for the DNA evidence.

00:37:00.280 That's not good enough.

00:37:01.560 That's not good enough

00:37:02.220 because it'd be one thing

00:37:03.100 if his blood

00:37:03.940 were at the scene

00:37:05.420 and that was a match

00:37:07.640 to the cheek swab.

00:37:08.920 What we're saying

00:37:09.580 the cheek swab

00:37:10.640 matched

00:37:11.900 was that one piece

00:37:13.140 of touch DNA

00:37:13.760 on the knife sheath

00:37:14.640 which I realize

00:37:15.400 is a good fact

00:37:16.000 for the prosecution

00:37:16.580 but it's not ballgame.

00:37:17.760 It's maybe

00:37:18.460 maybe he somehow

00:37:19.660 touched the knife

00:37:20.260 at a friend's house.

00:37:21.120 Maybe he touched it

00:37:21.780 in a store.

00:37:22.460 Maybe I know

00:37:23.320 he purchased a knife

00:37:24.260 on Amazon

00:37:24.900 that appears to have

00:37:25.620 been a K-bar knife

00:37:26.460 but maybe somebody

00:37:27.460 stole that knife from him.

00:37:29.220 There's a lot of loops

00:37:30.240 the prosecution's

00:37:30.980 going to have to close.

00:37:31.700 I mean you're a good lawyer.

00:37:33.300 You're raising

00:37:33.620 all the right questions

00:37:34.720 and now that

00:37:35.660 unknown male blood

00:37:37.360 has been found

00:37:37.960 in the house

00:37:38.600 that raises the possibility

00:37:40.340 of accomplices

00:37:41.300 other people there

00:37:42.420 on the murder night

00:37:43.680 because it's not

00:37:44.400 fingerprints that were found

00:37:45.640 it's blood.

00:37:46.880 Would you leave

00:37:47.420 blood at a party?

00:37:48.440 I don't know.

00:37:50.300 But back to our

00:37:51.580 my favorite piece

00:37:53.760 of evidence

00:37:54.200 the fact that he was

00:37:56.480 shoving his garbage

00:37:57.840 into little baggies

00:37:58.960 for disposal

00:37:59.840 in the neighbor's trash

00:38:01.340 the cops had already

00:38:02.120 realized he was

00:38:02.660 disposing of his trash

00:38:03.480 in the neighbor's

00:38:04.020 the night the FBI

00:38:05.240 raided his parents

00:38:06.100 home in the Poconos

00:38:06.780 back home in Pennsylvania

00:38:07.640 when he went on

00:38:08.580 winter break

00:38:09.040 is just absolutely

00:38:10.820 devastating

00:38:11.720 though I will acknowledge

00:38:13.160 it is possible

00:38:15.040 a crafty defense attorney

00:38:16.240 will find some

00:38:17.440 willing family member

00:38:19.080 or someone

00:38:19.900 to say there was

00:38:21.500 a reason for that.

00:38:22.400 Like he

00:38:22.940 he's got OCD

00:38:24.540 he always did this

00:38:26.240 he'd done it for years

00:38:27.860 we didn't know why

00:38:29.000 I don't know why

00:38:30.020 if he had to

00:38:31.300 put his things

00:38:31.660 in Ziploc baggies

00:38:32.540 he couldn't have

00:38:32.940 put it out

00:38:33.340 in his own trash

00:38:34.160 had to go in

00:38:34.540 the neighbor's trash

00:38:35.440 but that's

00:38:36.360 a terrible fact

00:38:37.280 for the defense.

00:38:38.740 Well the defense

00:38:39.460 is going to try

00:38:40.160 to get around that

00:38:40.940 in one way

00:38:41.700 is that

00:38:42.640 Koberger's family

00:38:45.200 parents lived

00:38:46.060 in a sort of

00:38:46.640 gated community

00:38:47.540 and they had

00:38:50.040 a garbage service.

00:38:51.980 The FBI

00:38:52.560 and the

00:38:53.920 Pennsylvania State Police

00:38:55.340 got Koberger's garbage

00:38:56.840 from this garbage

00:38:58.500 company

00:38:59.080 they

00:39:00.200 the defense

00:39:01.620 is going to claim

00:39:02.460 they did not have

00:39:03.140 a valid

00:39:03.720 search warrant

00:39:04.900 a valid warrant

00:39:05.920 to get this garbage

00:39:07.240 from

00:39:08.340 the private

00:39:09.660 carding company.

00:39:11.380 I don't know

00:39:11.660 if that's going to

00:39:12.500 hold up in court

00:39:13.620 but that's the argument

00:39:14.600 they're going to raise.

00:39:15.820 So the best case scenario

00:39:16.580 there would be

00:39:17.080 they exclude

00:39:17.780 the fact that

00:39:18.420 they found

00:39:18.760 the Koberger's trash

00:39:19.720 in the neighbor's

00:39:20.540 trash bin

00:39:21.160 but it would not exclude

00:39:22.840 them finding him

00:39:25.300 shoving his trash

00:39:26.640 into individual

00:39:27.640 Ziploc baggies

00:39:28.660 at the moment

00:39:29.480 of the arrest

00:39:30.180 in the middle

00:39:30.800 of the night.

00:39:31.860 That sounds like

00:39:33.540 a criminal

00:39:34.540 with something to hide

00:39:35.880 not an honest

00:39:36.920 criminology student

00:39:38.220 who's been

00:39:38.720 you know

00:39:39.380 wrongly accused.

00:39:40.860 I agree

00:39:41.680 but at the same time

00:39:42.780 he's a very strange

00:39:44.880 young man

00:39:45.560 he has visual snow

00:39:47.240 he was a heroin addict

00:39:48.520 he has strange practices

00:39:50.440 he goes off

00:39:51.360 at four in the morning

00:39:52.360 to look at stars

00:39:53.340 in a wilderness park

00:39:54.460 on a foggy night

00:39:55.500 would he put his garbage

00:39:57.120 into separate bags

00:39:58.160 who knows.

00:40:00.100 Oh my god

00:40:00.880 this is

00:40:01.460 Howard's just giving us

00:40:02.440 a preview

00:40:02.820 of how this is going

00:40:03.480 to sound

00:40:03.920 a trial.

00:40:04.580 I mean it's going to be

00:40:05.140 a very interesting trial

00:40:06.680 even the jury selection

00:40:08.280 is going to be interesting.

00:40:10.260 And they're going to

00:40:11.280 like this is a good preview

00:40:12.400 because Ann Taylor

00:40:13.200 is going to pick apart

00:40:13.940 every piece

00:40:15.460 of the prosecution's case

00:40:17.040 like every piece

00:40:17.820 nothing will be allowed

00:40:18.740 without objection

00:40:20.220 without a counter

00:40:21.200 narrative

00:40:22.000 and all she needs

00:40:23.640 is one juror

00:40:24.600 she just needs one 0.98

00:40:26.340 to say

00:40:26.820 I don't have

00:40:27.500 total confidence

00:40:28.520 I have reasonable doubt.

00:40:30.200 And in a murder case

00:40:31.240 you really got to be sure

00:40:32.580 if you're sending someone off

00:40:33.740 either for a lethal injection

00:40:35.420 or a firing squad

00:40:36.400 you want to make sure

00:40:37.580 beyond a shadow of a doubt

00:40:38.860 that you're doing

00:40:39.620 the right thing.

00:40:41.140 Oh my god

00:40:41.880 this makes me feel sick

00:40:42.920 I have like acid

00:40:43.780 in my stomach

00:40:44.320 from this discussion

00:40:45.080 I just

00:40:45.580 I wish they had more

00:40:47.100 I know

00:40:48.220 no it was an important hearing

00:40:49.860 you learned a ton

00:40:50.700 we corresponded privately

00:40:52.300 I was like

00:40:52.720 oh my god

00:40:53.720 well we've all been

00:40:54.440 paying attention

00:40:54.960 to Trump

00:40:55.320 Trump

00:40:55.500 Trump

00:40:55.680 Trump

00:40:55.860 stuff's really been

00:40:58.080 happening in this

00:40:58.720 very important case

00:40:59.980 that I mean truly

00:41:00.980 this is

00:41:01.440 we laugh

00:41:01.960 because it's like

00:41:02.480 now it's easier

00:41:03.320 to just talk about

00:41:03.960 the legalities of it

00:41:04.900 but these four beautiful

00:41:06.320 college students

00:41:07.560 and once again

00:41:08.320 they are

00:41:08.760 Madison Mogan

00:41:09.580 Kaylee Gonsalves

00:41:10.580 Zanacrenodal 0.68

00:41:11.620 and Ethan Chapin

00:41:12.480 murdered

00:41:14.140 right in the prime

00:41:14.820 of their life

00:41:15.200 November 2022

00:41:16.280 and their families

00:41:17.420 deserve justice

00:41:18.660 and they deserved it

00:41:19.720 before this August

00:41:20.760 it's been too long

00:41:21.940 did they talk at all

00:41:23.140 about moving the trial date

00:41:24.080 or do we think

00:41:24.520 it's on for August?

00:41:25.740 Well they're trying

00:41:26.440 I think it will take place

00:41:28.000 I don't think this judge

00:41:29.100 is going to delay

00:41:30.340 any longer

00:41:30.960 but the defense

00:41:32.360 is still asking

00:41:33.200 for more time

00:41:34.020 we'll see if he grants it

00:41:35.420 I don't believe he will

00:41:36.820 but

00:41:37.100 no

00:41:37.960 I was surprised

00:41:38.820 he raised the possibility

00:41:40.320 of a Frank's hearing

00:41:41.180 that shocked me

00:41:42.580 yep

00:41:43.560 the families deserve

00:41:44.940 just let's have a trial

00:41:46.780 there's nothing

00:41:47.100 that's going to be gained

00:41:48.200 by a delay

00:41:49.060 by the defense

00:41:50.440 or the prosecution

00:41:51.020 frankly

00:41:51.400 thank you so much

00:41:53.220 Howard Bloom

00:41:53.700 and people can get

00:41:55.080 your latest reporting

00:41:55.840 on this case

00:41:57.760 in airmail

00:41:58.640 in airmail

00:42:00.120 and in my book

00:42:01.180 When the Night Comes Falling

00:42:02.380 awesome

00:42:03.600 okay

00:42:04.300 check out his book

00:42:05.260 I've read it

00:42:05.680 it was great

00:42:06.280 and airmail

00:42:07.200 is a subscription publication

00:42:08.620 that you can get

00:42:09.220 just google it

00:42:09.740 and you'll see

00:42:10.200 it's run by

00:42:11.540 Graydon Carter

00:42:12.060 former guy

00:42:13.500 behind Vanity Fair

00:42:14.380 thanks to all of you

00:42:15.620 for watching and listening

00:42:16.600 and don't forget

00:42:17.100 we will be back

00:42:17.960 in just a couple of hours

00:42:19.080 with our full show

00:42:20.740 don't miss that

00:42:21.700 talk to you later

00:42:22.380 thanks for listening

00:42:37.980 to the Megan Kelly show

00:42:39.100 no BS

00:42:39.980 no agenda

00:42:40.740 and no fear

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The Megyn Kelly Show - February 07, 2025

Shocking New Kohberger Case Details About DNA Match, ＂Unknown Male＂ Blood, and Witness, with Howard Blum ｜ Ep. 1002

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