The Megyn Kelly Show - February 07, 2025


Shocking New Kohberger Case Details About DNA Match, ＂Unknown Male＂ Blood, and Witness, with Howard Blum ｜ Ep. 1002


Episode Stats

Length

43 minutes

Words per Minute

170.91997

Word Count

7,470

Sentence Count

451

Misogynist Sentences

11

Hate Speech Sentences

9


Summary

In late January, there was a pre-trial hearing that revealed shocking new information that we have not heard before. Joining me to break down all the developments is Howard Bloom, journalist and New York Times best-selling author of When the Night Comes Falling: A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders.


Transcript

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00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
00:00:32.540 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:00:42.160 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.
00:00:43.840 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
00:00:45.140 And today's bonus AM episode.
00:00:47.920 Brian Kohlberger, the suspect accused of murdering
00:00:50.720 four University of Idaho students,
00:00:53.420 is set to go to trial in August.
00:00:55.660 But in late January, there was a pre-trial hearing
00:00:59.020 and an important one.
00:01:00.000 That revealed shocking new information
00:01:02.900 that we have not heard before.
00:01:06.060 Joining me now to break down all the developments
00:01:07.660 is Howard Bloom, journalist and New York Times
00:01:09.880 best-selling author of When the Night Comes Falling,
00:01:13.600 a requiem for the Idaho student murders.
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00:02:23.380 Howard, welcome back.
00:02:24.800 I have to say, it's such a busy news time for us to be doing this.
00:02:29.320 It just shows the significance of what happened at that hearing on January 23rd and 24th.
00:02:34.180 I was like, we've got to get this on because-
00:02:36.540 Well, I appreciate it.
00:02:37.160 I mean, I don't want to overstate it, but it's possible the prosecution's case is falling apart.
00:02:41.640 It did not go particularly well for them.
00:02:43.800 Let's start with the DNA.
00:02:45.400 What happened?
00:02:45.940 Well, the way these authorities got to Kohlberger
00:02:50.540 wasn't through any other evidence at the beginning, but just a little speck of DNA,
00:02:56.920 smaller than a piece of dust that was left on the button of a knife sheath that was left behind.
00:03:03.900 They used this speck of DNA.
00:03:06.960 They processed it so that they could give it to an FBI laboratory.
00:03:10.680 The FBI laboratory then, after months of not admitting what they had done,
00:03:17.120 it was revealed in the end of January in court that they had taken this DNA
00:03:22.160 and they had uploaded it to two websites, ancestry DNA websites,
00:03:29.260 that prohibit law enforcement from using this DNA.
00:03:33.460 The FBI did this, not out of any evil reasons, but just out of their zeal.
00:03:39.680 You have to go back to the time of the killing.
00:03:42.140 It was a murder of four young children on the loose.
00:03:47.740 They had really no clues except for this DNA.
00:03:51.400 Except for this DNA, it was in many ways the perfect crime.
00:03:55.640 They had no blood evidence, really.
00:04:00.180 They had no evidence of anyone stalking these young college students.
00:04:05.900 All they had was this DNA, so they ran with it.
00:04:09.080 And this DNA allowed them to open up many other doors,
00:04:13.120 ultimately having a series of search warrants that led to the suspects,
00:04:17.900 Brian Kohlberger's phone, his car, his apartment.
00:04:21.340 But without that DNA, they couldn't have gotten these search warrants.
00:04:25.720 And now the defense is saying, wait a minute, wait a minute.
00:04:30.700 This suspect's Fourth Amendment rights were violated by the FBI's going into these prohibited websites.
00:04:39.440 You've been saying this all along.
00:04:41.540 You've been suspecting that the FBI got this match between the DNA,
00:04:46.860 the touch DNA on the knife sheath, and matched it to Kohlberger's father,
00:04:52.220 possibly by doing something they're not allowed to do,
00:04:56.500 which is use the commercial DNA websites that people like you and I might go to
00:05:02.140 if we're looking for a long-lost relative.
00:05:04.120 They have a public database.
00:05:06.320 CeCe Moore, the original creator of genetic genealogy,
00:05:11.720 talked to us about this a long time ago,
00:05:13.540 saying there's only one that's totally public.
00:05:17.120 And anyone can upload their DNA and see what's on there.
00:05:19.900 The other two are fee-for-service private companies
00:05:22.380 that are not allowed to be used by law enforcement.
00:05:25.440 Otherwise, nobody would go on there, right?
00:05:27.040 They'd be like, if I ever committed a crime or have a relative down the line
00:05:30.080 who might have committed a crime, I'm going to get them in trouble.
00:05:32.120 So there's supposed to be this hard wall.
00:05:34.660 And you said early on you suspected,
00:05:37.180 because the FBI seemed to be very cagey about this whole thing.
00:05:40.780 They didn't want to turn over the results of how they got this to anybody.
00:05:44.700 That maybe they had done something they weren't allowed to.
00:05:48.620 Go ahead.
00:05:49.500 Not only did they not want to turn over the results,
00:05:52.300 they said literally that they had ripped up the evidence of their research.
00:05:59.060 They said, we just threw it out.
00:06:00.420 Who ever heard of it in a major murder investigation,
00:06:03.380 the FBI discarding evidence?
00:06:05.740 But this is what they did.
00:06:07.080 But the defense kept on pressing and pressing.
00:06:11.400 And now they got a judge to give him the evidence.
00:06:14.200 And it proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt,
00:06:16.360 it came out in open court that the FBI violated
00:06:19.520 the protocols of these two genetic websites.
00:06:23.860 Now, how is that going to affect the case?
00:06:27.440 The judge has...
00:06:27.920 Wait, wait.
00:06:28.580 Before you answer that,
00:06:30.060 let's just show the audience what
00:06:31.560 Cole Berger's defense attorney, Ann Taylor,
00:06:34.360 yes, that's her name,
00:06:35.680 argued about this investigative genetic genealogy,
00:06:39.420 IgG evidence.
00:06:41.060 Listen to her in SOT 41.
00:06:43.400 Your Honor, our position is that the court
00:06:45.700 should suppress the IgG identification
00:06:49.580 and everything that flows from that.
00:06:52.520 This is supported by Fourth Amendment
00:06:55.500 of the United States Constitution,
00:06:58.100 due process, Article 1, Section 17
00:07:00.420 of the Idaho Constitution.
00:07:03.240 Runner, there was no warrant
00:07:04.480 for several phases of the search
00:07:06.780 that led to the IgG work,
00:07:09.240 investigative genetic genealogy.
00:07:11.440 And we think every single one of those stages,
00:07:13.660 a warrant was required,
00:07:15.500 none was given,
00:07:16.800 and so this must be suppressed.
00:07:19.980 She's saying all the goods they got
00:07:22.180 after getting that hit
00:07:24.880 have to be suppressed
00:07:26.280 and cannot be used
00:07:27.120 because they're, in essence,
00:07:28.000 the fruit of the poisonous tree.
00:07:29.020 Exactly.
00:07:30.760 And if you look at what they had before then,
00:07:33.120 there's not much except for one thing.
00:07:35.680 After Cole Berger is arrested,
00:07:38.040 he's in a Pennsylvania jail,
00:07:39.920 and they do a cheek swab.
00:07:42.280 And the DNA from that cheek swab
00:07:44.860 matches the DNA
00:07:46.360 on the button of the knife sheath.
00:07:48.560 That is pretty substantial evidence.
00:07:50.800 But if they can get that thrown out,
00:07:53.340 that will make a case
00:07:55.760 that seems pretty much a shut case
00:07:58.260 to be more open than shut.
00:08:00.940 And there's going to be a,
00:08:02.540 or it's a possibility
00:08:04.200 of a Frank's hearing.
00:08:05.800 That's a judicial process
00:08:09.860 named after a 1978 Supreme Court case
00:08:13.720 where evidence was thrown out
00:08:16.420 because the police
00:08:17.640 had falsified information
00:08:19.000 to get their warrants.
00:08:20.360 The judge has not said
00:08:21.460 he will have this Frank's hearing,
00:08:23.320 but he has raised the possibility
00:08:24.780 and he's asked the lawyers
00:08:26.180 to keep time available
00:08:27.500 to have such a hearing.
00:08:29.240 And if that's happening...
00:08:29.600 That's not what the prosecution
00:08:30.320 wanted to hear.
00:08:31.160 The prosecution wanted to hear.
00:08:32.240 There's no need for a hearing.
00:08:33.640 This is ridiculous.
00:08:35.160 You know,
00:08:35.700 irrespective of how we got
00:08:37.780 to Brian Cole Berger's father
00:08:39.460 as being related
00:08:40.500 to the person
00:08:41.160 whose DNA was on the knife sheath,
00:08:42.620 we know it is Brian Cole Berger's DNA
00:08:46.000 because we ultimately took
00:08:46.920 a cheek swab
00:08:47.640 that shows it was him.
00:08:49.860 But the,
00:08:50.120 but the,
00:08:50.560 so the problem for the prosecution
00:08:52.020 is the judge is not saying no.
00:08:53.380 He's keeping the door open.
00:08:54.240 He might actually have a hearing on this.
00:08:55.460 So he's a little,
00:08:56.040 at least a little interested.
00:08:57.220 But can I just say this
00:08:58.500 to what you just said, Howard?
00:08:59.720 The DNA,
00:09:00.620 the DNA matching Cole Berger directly
00:09:04.500 is absolutely devastating.
00:09:06.120 There's no question.
00:09:06.900 It's a terrible fact for the defense.
00:09:08.740 But as I understand her,
00:09:11.740 her argument,
00:09:12.620 Ann Taylor's,
00:09:13.740 it's that you would never have been
00:09:15.860 cheek swabbing Brian Cole Berger
00:09:17.540 if you hadn't been doing
00:09:20.060 the shenanigans
00:09:21.160 with the DNA
00:09:23.420 and 23andMe.
00:09:25.140 Like,
00:09:25.460 she's saying you can't even use
00:09:27.300 the cheek swab
00:09:28.000 because it,
00:09:28.980 it too is fruit
00:09:30.180 of the poisonous tree.
00:09:31.620 That,
00:09:32.260 that is what she's arguing.
00:09:33.580 That's part of her argument.
00:09:35.140 But also at that hearing,
00:09:36.500 something else was revealed,
00:09:38.420 which is perhaps
00:09:39.400 even more dramatic
00:09:40.440 and makes her case
00:09:41.520 even more substantial.
00:09:44.900 Okay.
00:09:45.420 So hold on.
00:09:46.680 But before we get to that,
00:09:47.480 let me finish up this part.
00:09:48.400 I know there's a lot of,
00:09:49.100 a lot of stuff to discuss.
00:09:50.520 So just so the audience knows,
00:09:51.780 that's what she's trying to argue.
00:09:52.700 She's trying to say,
00:09:53.340 everything that followed
00:09:54.600 as a result of you figuring out
00:09:56.060 that Brian Cole Berger's DNA,
00:09:57.720 his dad's DNA,
00:09:58.640 was traceable
00:10:00.060 from that knife sheath
00:10:01.640 has to be removed.
00:10:03.200 You have to get rid of it.
00:10:04.480 including the cheek swab.
00:10:06.280 Now the judge did not seem
00:10:07.940 like he was going to do that.
00:10:09.440 He seemed very into
00:10:10.700 the actual cheek swab
00:10:11.780 and he didn't sound like a man
00:10:12.760 who thinks that's fruit
00:10:13.500 of any poisonous tree.
00:10:14.700 But here he is,
00:10:15.800 Judge Hitler,
00:10:16.940 talking about that DNA match
00:10:18.560 in Sop 43.
00:10:19.220 There's a DNA match
00:10:24.240 between the DNA and the sheath
00:10:27.520 and Mr. Cole Berger.
00:10:32.720 Isn't that probable cause
00:10:34.260 every day and twice on Sunday?
00:10:37.720 Not in this context.
00:10:39.940 Not in this context
00:10:41.140 because of the IgG work.
00:10:45.600 That's, again,
00:10:46.340 she's saying the investigative
00:10:47.180 genetic genealogy,
00:10:48.240 undermines it
00:10:50.060 and makes it unusable.
00:10:51.560 Is that basically what happened?
00:10:53.660 That's basically what happened.
00:10:55.140 But also,
00:10:56.060 if they throw it out,
00:10:58.400 there's really not much there.
00:11:01.340 I mean,
00:11:02.180 you have to,
00:11:03.280 in many ways,
00:11:04.180 it was a perfect crime
00:11:05.560 except for the leaving
00:11:06.760 the knife sheath behind.
00:11:09.080 Consider,
00:11:10.140 the house was,
00:11:11.620 there was so much blood
00:11:12.680 in the house
00:11:13.560 that it was coming out
00:11:14.840 of the sides of the house.
00:11:16.440 It was coming down
00:11:17.120 the foundation
00:11:17.780 of the building
00:11:19.480 at 1122 King Road.
00:11:22.040 And yet,
00:11:22.980 no blood was ever
00:11:24.000 found on Cole Berger.
00:11:25.380 No blood was found
00:11:26.320 in his car.
00:11:27.360 No blood was found
00:11:28.240 in his apartment.
00:11:29.900 There is no evidence
00:11:31.220 also of Cole Berger
00:11:32.340 having any connection
00:11:33.560 to any of the murder victims.
00:11:35.660 There's no evidence
00:11:36.840 of him talking
00:11:37.620 to any of them,
00:11:38.600 ever being in the house,
00:11:40.820 of him stalking them
00:11:42.020 on the internet.
00:11:43.960 There's no murder weapon.
00:11:45.420 There's no motive even.
00:11:48.680 So without this
00:11:49.760 DNA evidence,
00:11:51.740 the case against
00:11:52.700 Cole Berger
00:11:53.220 becomes a lot
00:11:54.300 more problematic.
00:11:56.500 Okay,
00:11:56.660 but how about
00:11:57.100 the fact that,
00:11:57.920 I mean,
00:11:58.020 the best fact,
00:11:59.960 I think,
00:12:00.420 other than the DNA match,
00:12:01.680 is the fact that
00:12:02.700 when the police
00:12:03.280 went to arrest him
00:12:04.160 in the Poconos
00:12:04.800 in December,
00:12:05.580 this crime was committed
00:12:06.380 the month before
00:12:07.000 in November.
00:12:08.240 My God,
00:12:08.580 is it 2022 now?
00:12:09.780 I'm trying to,
00:12:10.440 I'm losing track.
00:12:11.060 Yes.
00:12:11.760 Yeah,
00:12:12.320 2022.
00:12:13.860 When they arrested him
00:12:14.880 in his home,
00:12:15.400 back in his parents'
00:12:16.080 home in December,
00:12:16.900 he was there
00:12:17.920 putting his trash
00:12:19.300 into individual
00:12:20.120 little baggies
00:12:21.060 that were being
00:12:22.540 disposed of
00:12:23.200 in the neighbor's
00:12:24.020 trash can.
00:12:24.660 That is terrible.
00:12:26.300 Very incriminating.
00:12:27.380 That is very incriminating,
00:12:29.080 yes.
00:12:29.840 But if she,
00:12:32.320 Ann Taylor,
00:12:33.000 the defense attorney,
00:12:33.760 is trying to get
00:12:34.840 that the FBI
00:12:37.240 and the police
00:12:38.080 coming into his house,
00:12:39.300 she's trying to get
00:12:40.200 that thrown out,
00:12:41.820 the terms of the,
00:12:43.160 she's claiming
00:12:43.940 it was an unlawful assault
00:12:45.540 without the necessary
00:12:47.140 warrants
00:12:47.700 to arrest him
00:12:49.660 in his house.
00:12:50.800 She's raising everything.
00:12:52.780 Of course,
00:12:53.460 as any good defense lawyer,
00:12:54.560 well,
00:12:54.700 but that one's,
00:12:55.440 I'm,
00:12:55.820 we've heard her out
00:12:56.780 on the genetic genealogy thing.
00:12:58.240 You were right
00:12:58.700 and she was right
00:12:59.340 that there was
00:12:59.800 some funny business
00:13:00.400 going on from the sound of it,
00:13:01.420 but she's,
00:13:02.580 there's no way
00:13:03.040 she's getting out
00:13:03.900 the FBI,
00:13:04.820 what they found
00:13:05.320 upon arresting him.
00:13:06.500 No way.
00:13:07.860 And it's just
00:13:08.440 a terrible damn fact.
00:13:09.720 I don't,
00:13:09.920 you know,
00:13:10.240 but go back
00:13:11.680 to your first point.
00:13:12.980 I firmly believe
00:13:14.020 Kohlberger committed
00:13:14.640 this crime,
00:13:15.280 but what's fascinating
00:13:16.460 is how good
00:13:18.640 he was
00:13:19.140 at covering it up
00:13:20.520 to your point.
00:13:21.320 There's no murder weapon
00:13:22.640 and she reiterated
00:13:23.700 these points.
00:13:24.200 So these are all updated now.
00:13:25.460 We've been speculating,
00:13:26.460 but she was on the record
00:13:27.680 with they haven't found
00:13:28.900 a murder weapon.
00:13:29.800 They did not find
00:13:30.960 any blood,
00:13:32.020 Howard,
00:13:32.260 she said this,
00:13:32.920 on Brian,
00:13:34.420 on any of his belongings,
00:13:35.880 or even anywhere
00:13:37.240 in that car
00:13:37.980 that they practically
00:13:38.940 dissected?
00:13:40.660 Yes.
00:13:41.320 I mean,
00:13:41.660 they took apart
00:13:42.500 the brake gears.
00:13:43.500 They were looking
00:13:43.960 all over for any blood,
00:13:45.460 no blood in his
00:13:46.640 student apartment
00:13:48.020 at Washington State University,
00:13:50.100 nowhere.
00:13:51.520 It was a perfect crime
00:13:53.460 in many ways,
00:13:54.500 except,
00:13:55.660 except for leaving
00:13:57.320 behind the knife sheath.
00:13:59.340 Such a massive,
00:14:00.920 massive error.
00:14:01.680 But what about
00:14:02.800 the car
00:14:03.500 and the phone evidence?
00:14:04.960 You know,
00:14:05.100 because when we read
00:14:06.200 the police affidavit
00:14:07.040 before his arrest,
00:14:07.940 it was white car,
00:14:10.140 Hyundai Elantra.
00:14:11.040 They changed the year
00:14:11.900 once they started
00:14:13.360 to narrow in
00:14:14.020 on Kohlberger
00:14:14.600 because they'd had
00:14:15.500 the years wrong.
00:14:16.820 But then they said,
00:14:17.920 okay,
00:14:18.260 it's,
00:14:18.640 yeah,
00:14:18.780 it's 15.
00:14:19.380 It's not just 16.
00:14:20.120 Anyway,
00:14:20.360 whatever his car was.
00:14:21.600 And we've seen
00:14:23.460 that car around,
00:14:24.680 you know,
00:14:25.280 the murder house
00:14:26.760 many times,
00:14:27.440 according to the cops.
00:14:28.200 and also his phone records
00:14:31.320 show that he was
00:14:32.200 in the vicinity
00:14:33.200 of the murder house
00:14:34.000 over and over,
00:14:34.980 including the,
00:14:36.260 the night before.
00:14:37.640 They didn't have him there
00:14:38.480 during the murder hours
00:14:39.320 because his phone was off.
00:14:40.200 But then the next morning
00:14:41.300 he appeared to go back
00:14:42.120 before they had found
00:14:43.200 the bodies
00:14:43.600 in the 9 a.m. hour.
00:14:44.760 So speak to that.
00:14:46.260 Here's what the defense
00:14:47.560 is going to say.
00:14:48.440 And I think it's a fairly
00:14:49.700 convincing argument,
00:14:50.940 especially in a death penalty case.
00:14:52.780 You have a white
00:14:54.220 Hyundai Elantra
00:14:55.800 by the house,
00:14:56.920 but you have no proof
00:14:58.780 that that's
00:14:59.900 Koberger's car.
00:15:01.340 You never see
00:15:02.100 the license plate
00:15:03.220 on any of the videos.
00:15:04.880 You never see
00:15:05.820 the man behind the wheel
00:15:07.400 in any of those videos.
00:15:08.940 They're all obscured.
00:15:10.480 So there are lots
00:15:11.400 of white Hyundai Elantras
00:15:12.660 around.
00:15:14.260 They can't make
00:15:15.460 that connection directly.
00:15:16.980 Then when you have
00:15:17.840 the cell phone tower
00:15:18.960 triangulation
00:15:19.860 that puts him
00:15:20.900 in the neighborhood
00:15:22.960 of the murder house,
00:15:25.220 well, it's a 10-mile radius.
00:15:27.220 In a town like Moscow,
00:15:29.120 10 miles takes up
00:15:30.780 a lot of territory,
00:15:32.060 a lot of neighborhoods.
00:15:33.520 You never have any proof
00:15:35.000 that he ever parked
00:15:36.320 in front of the house.
00:15:39.000 That his car ever came
00:15:41.320 to a halt
00:15:42.100 in front of the house.
00:15:43.420 You can speculate,
00:15:44.680 but you can't prove it.
00:15:46.380 Are these inferences
00:15:47.640 enough to condemn
00:15:49.760 a man to death?
00:15:51.480 It might be hard
00:15:52.520 for a jury.
00:15:54.400 What is the
00:15:55.160 seven-minute screw-up
00:15:57.600 on the timeline
00:15:58.640 by the cops?
00:16:00.780 Well, it seems
00:16:01.980 the cops,
00:16:02.760 when they were tracking
00:16:03.560 the white Hyundai Elantra
00:16:06.260 that night,
00:16:07.060 made an error.
00:16:08.000 They got the timelines wrong,
00:16:09.720 whether accidentally
00:16:10.840 or deliberately,
00:16:12.380 but off by seven minutes.
00:16:14.240 And they put the car
00:16:15.860 that they allege
00:16:16.560 is Kohlbergers
00:16:17.340 closer to Moscow
00:16:18.740 at the time.
00:16:20.120 But the defense
00:16:22.900 is saying that
00:16:23.620 because of this screw-up,
00:16:25.000 which no one seems
00:16:25.700 to be arguing
00:16:26.300 that the cops
00:16:26.900 got this time incorrect,
00:16:29.040 this would have allowed
00:16:29.940 Kohlberger to be driving
00:16:31.260 away from Moscow
00:16:32.660 and to this state park
00:16:34.720 where they claim
00:16:35.680 he was at the time
00:16:36.740 of the murders.
00:16:38.620 Stargazing.
00:16:39.080 That would seem to
00:16:39.460 substan...
00:16:40.280 Yes, stargazing
00:16:41.360 on a cloudy night
00:16:42.440 at four in the morning
00:16:43.680 when the temperatures
00:16:44.400 are a little below freezing.
00:16:45.900 Oh my gosh.
00:16:48.160 All right.
00:16:48.360 So it's just...
00:16:49.120 It's a screw-up
00:16:50.400 by the cops
00:16:50.960 that won't be helpful
00:16:51.760 to the prosecutors
00:16:52.620 in trying to show
00:16:53.720 this case was
00:16:54.380 done by the book,
00:16:56.060 all T's crossed,
00:16:56.860 all I's dotted.
00:16:58.440 All right.
00:16:58.900 So that's some of the stuff.
00:16:59.760 I'm amazed.
00:17:00.400 I'm amazed
00:17:00.940 that at this point
00:17:01.560 in the case
00:17:02.000 she's saying openly
00:17:03.480 there's no blood evidence
00:17:04.380 tying him to the crime.
00:17:05.640 I thought for sure
00:17:06.520 they'd find something,
00:17:08.280 you know,
00:17:08.500 that with all the searches
00:17:10.060 they did of his apartment
00:17:10.900 or his car,
00:17:12.020 his clothing,
00:17:12.640 there'd be some speck
00:17:15.580 of the four victims' blood.
00:17:17.220 This is a brutal murder
00:17:18.340 done by knife,
00:17:19.240 K-bar knife,
00:17:20.020 in the middle of the night
00:17:21.080 these four beautiful
00:17:22.380 college students
00:17:22.980 asleep in their beds
00:17:23.880 or in their rooms at least
00:17:25.500 and he is alleged
00:17:27.500 to have killed them
00:17:28.080 in the course of 12 minutes,
00:17:29.820 all four of them.
00:17:31.240 You'd get blood
00:17:32.280 all over you, Howard.
00:17:34.400 There was so much blood
00:17:35.740 in the house
00:17:36.440 that it was,
00:17:37.420 as I said before,
00:17:38.600 coming out of the foundation
00:17:39.800 of the building.
00:17:40.600 And yet,
00:17:43.620 to make it even more interesting,
00:17:45.580 more dramatic,
00:17:46.280 it was revealed
00:17:47.000 that they did find blood
00:17:48.820 in the house,
00:17:49.780 unidentified blood
00:17:50.820 in the house,
00:17:51.660 but it wasn't Kohlbergers.
00:17:53.580 No, this is big.
00:17:54.640 Oh, wait,
00:17:54.840 so wait one second
00:17:55.580 before we get to that
00:17:56.400 because that's an important
00:17:57.480 development.
00:17:58.280 But think about it
00:18:00.340 because many of us believe
00:18:01.780 that he had on
00:18:02.640 like a worker's suit
00:18:03.820 because we saw that
00:18:04.680 that was,
00:18:06.040 he bought one
00:18:06.700 via Amazon,
00:18:07.980 like a painter's suit,
00:18:09.340 you know,
00:18:09.520 that would cover up
00:18:10.040 your whole,
00:18:10.520 everything you're wearing.
00:18:11.940 And that that's,
00:18:13.060 he did that for a reason,
00:18:14.640 right?
00:18:14.800 He knew he was going
00:18:15.460 to get bloody.
00:18:16.900 But,
00:18:17.660 and maybe he had
00:18:18.340 those little booties
00:18:19.200 that, you know,
00:18:19.820 like when the heating guy
00:18:20.780 comes to fix your heater,
00:18:22.220 he puts on
00:18:22.960 before he walks
00:18:23.560 into your house.
00:18:25.920 But he would have,
00:18:28.680 like,
00:18:28.980 think about it.
00:18:29.460 He's sneaking out
00:18:30.640 of the house
00:18:30.920 covered in blood.
00:18:31.900 Where does he take
00:18:32.740 the stuff off,
00:18:33.720 right?
00:18:33.960 According to them,
00:18:35.440 the eyewitness saw him,
00:18:36.620 which would have shaken him.
00:18:37.460 He wouldn't have wanted
00:18:38.000 to be hanging out
00:18:39.000 in the house,
00:18:39.580 disrobing,
00:18:40.660 changing out
00:18:41.700 of his workman suit
00:18:42.560 and his booties
00:18:43.260 if he's wearing them.
00:18:44.420 He must have done
00:18:45.720 that in the car.
00:18:46.420 You would think
00:18:46.780 he would have done
00:18:47.200 that in the car
00:18:48.040 and then disposed
00:18:49.080 of this along
00:18:49.840 with a murder weapon
00:18:50.580 on the way home.
00:18:51.420 And we'll get
00:18:51.820 to the eyewitness,
00:18:52.700 which is the most
00:18:53.280 interesting thing
00:18:53.860 of the whole day.
00:18:54.520 But pause there.
00:18:55.580 We'll get to the blood.
00:18:56.240 We'll get to the eyewitness.
00:18:56.800 So if you put,
00:18:59.120 if you got into your car
00:18:59.980 with a bloodied jumpsuit
00:19:01.540 and a bloodied pair
00:19:02.460 of like those
00:19:03.040 slide-on booties,
00:19:04.340 there should be
00:19:05.480 blood evidence
00:19:06.220 in the car.
00:19:09.120 Yes.
00:19:10.280 And there was
00:19:11.060 nothing in his trunk.
00:19:12.200 They've taken the car
00:19:13.520 apart top from bottom.
00:19:15.000 The only scenario
00:19:16.060 possible is that
00:19:17.060 before he got
00:19:17.820 into his car,
00:19:18.840 he had a garbage bag.
00:19:20.260 He put all the clothes
00:19:22.000 he was wearing
00:19:22.500 in a garbage bag
00:19:23.520 and drove off
00:19:25.700 basically in his underwear
00:19:28.200 and that was clean.
00:19:30.940 But where is
00:19:31.780 the clothes
00:19:32.540 he was wearing
00:19:33.080 that night?
00:19:33.620 Where is the garbage bag?
00:19:34.900 Where is the murder weapon?
00:19:36.480 No one can find it.
00:19:37.980 They've been looking
00:19:38.780 for two years now,
00:19:39.780 two and a half years,
00:19:40.800 and they don't have a trace.
00:19:43.100 I mean,
00:19:43.640 he did quite a job
00:19:45.620 of disposing
00:19:46.860 of that murder weapon
00:19:48.360 and those clothes.
00:19:49.080 That's all you'd need.
00:19:49.720 I mean,
00:19:49.840 it'd be ballgame.
00:19:50.420 He'd be done.
00:19:51.040 He'd be total toast.
00:19:52.480 I've often wondered
00:19:53.140 if he managed
00:19:53.580 to put it up
00:19:54.340 in a tree somehow,
00:19:55.360 like instead of down,
00:19:56.500 instead of digging ground,
00:19:57.940 which if they'd gotten
00:19:58.880 enough search crews
00:19:59.980 out there
00:20:00.300 might have been identified.
00:20:02.280 Is there any chance
00:20:02.900 he went up with it?
00:20:03.140 I think he probably
00:20:03.700 threw it into the Snake River.
00:20:05.600 He would drive him back.
00:20:07.560 The Snake River
00:20:08.500 sort of came by the territory.
00:20:10.320 He could have just
00:20:10.860 tossed it anywhere near there.
00:20:13.260 It's so risky
00:20:13.920 that he came back up.
00:20:14.940 Or it is possible
00:20:14.960 that he went up
00:20:16.060 to that park
00:20:16.960 that he's using
00:20:17.560 as his alibi.
00:20:18.520 He could have gone
00:20:18.980 to that park
00:20:19.540 after the murder
00:20:20.380 as he's driving around,
00:20:21.820 perhaps.
00:20:22.140 and then
00:20:23.120 left it somewhere
00:20:24.300 up there.
00:20:25.520 It's just mind-boggling.
00:20:26.540 There's so much blood.
00:20:27.460 The house is bleeding.
00:20:28.720 Four dead,
00:20:30.000 young 20s,
00:20:31.800 and, you know,
00:20:32.300 teenagers.
00:20:34.080 In the course of 12 minutes,
00:20:35.420 there would be blood
00:20:35.980 all over you.
00:20:36.680 How did he get it
00:20:38.900 to the point
00:20:39.320 where there was
00:20:40.140 no blood in the car?
00:20:41.660 That's a big mystery
00:20:42.580 for me.
00:20:43.000 It's a big question
00:20:43.720 in this case.
00:20:44.300 Okay, but let's talk about...
00:20:45.080 That would be a big question
00:20:45.420 for the jury.
00:20:46.020 Yeah, on the subject
00:20:48.060 of blood,
00:20:48.760 what you were going to say
00:20:49.520 we learned about,
00:20:50.340 those two other spots
00:20:51.840 of blood.
00:20:52.660 Yeah.
00:20:53.340 In the course
00:20:54.240 of the hearing
00:20:54.800 on January 23rd,
00:20:57.360 Ann Taylor,
00:20:58.740 Kohlberger's attorney,
00:20:59.880 revealed that there
00:21:00.960 has been blood
00:21:02.520 found in the house
00:21:03.540 belonging to two
00:21:04.680 unknown males.
00:21:06.480 The blood was found
00:21:07.460 on a banister,
00:21:08.760 a handrail,
00:21:09.680 going up to the
00:21:10.380 second floor
00:21:11.100 and also
00:21:12.080 inside a glove
00:21:14.540 outside the front
00:21:16.340 of the house.
00:21:18.440 Blood
00:21:18.920 from two unknown people.
00:21:21.760 Now, this was
00:21:22.600 a party house,
00:21:23.800 so you can imagine
00:21:24.400 there'd be fingerprints
00:21:25.100 on the handrail,
00:21:26.460 but what reason
00:21:27.180 is there for blood
00:21:28.060 and what reason
00:21:29.000 is there to be blood
00:21:30.420 on the glove?
00:21:32.260 And if, you know,
00:21:33.500 they would belong
00:21:34.120 to someone who had
00:21:34.840 gone to the house
00:21:35.620 during one of the parties,
00:21:36.860 well, how hard
00:21:37.560 would it have been
00:21:38.100 for the authorities
00:21:39.320 to track down
00:21:40.040 the fraternity boys
00:21:41.900 who came in
00:21:42.800 and out of the house
00:21:43.600 and getting blood samples
00:21:45.200 from them?
00:21:46.140 But to this date,
00:21:47.160 two and a half years later,
00:21:48.420 they still have not
00:21:49.220 been able to identify
00:21:50.300 the blood.
00:21:51.680 When the judge heard this,
00:21:53.820 he said in open court,
00:21:55.380 are you saying
00:21:56.140 that Kohlberger
00:21:57.320 had other people
00:21:58.520 working with him?
00:21:59.540 This doesn't mean
00:22:01.000 Kohlberger wasn't involved,
00:22:02.700 but there could have
00:22:03.500 been accomplices.
00:22:06.040 Accomplices,
00:22:06.860 this throws out,
00:22:08.000 you know,
00:22:08.500 a new mystery
00:22:09.960 into the case.
00:22:11.920 And here is how
00:22:12.640 Ann Taylor is using it.
00:22:14.660 She says the real question
00:22:16.320 is how did the knife sheath
00:22:18.840 get there?
00:22:20.380 She is now going to argue
00:22:22.460 in the course of the trial
00:22:23.760 that these two unknown male,
00:22:27.660 either one of them
00:22:28.560 or both of them,
00:22:29.420 put the knife sheath
00:22:30.860 on the bed
00:22:31.860 they were involved
00:22:33.260 in the murder,
00:22:34.300 and Kohlberger,
00:22:35.280 prior to the murder,
00:22:36.600 had somehow innocently
00:22:37.880 touched the knife sheath.
00:22:40.920 The DNA on the knife sheath
00:22:42.940 is just touch DNA.
00:22:45.380 And she is claiming
00:22:46.240 that,
00:22:46.820 or will claim
00:22:47.640 at the trial
00:22:49.000 that this was done
00:22:49.840 innocently
00:22:50.500 by Kohlberger.
00:22:52.100 It's
00:22:52.560 an argument
00:22:54.540 that can raise
00:22:55.180 a lot of doubts,
00:22:56.080 I believe,
00:22:56.620 in a jury's mind.
00:22:57.800 And the prospect
00:22:58.560 that there could have been
00:23:00.780 accomplices in the murder
00:23:01.980 further complicates the case.
00:23:03.980 Did the prosecution,
00:23:07.660 did the FBI
00:23:08.240 do any genetic genealogy
00:23:10.120 on the DNA
00:23:10.860 from the blood?
00:23:13.840 All I know
00:23:15.160 is what was revealed
00:23:16.060 in the court,
00:23:16.820 and the court referred
00:23:17.920 to it as unknown males.
00:23:21.140 And, you know,
00:23:22.800 it seems that they can't
00:23:24.040 track it down.
00:23:24.620 Any theories on how
00:23:25.960 not one,
00:23:26.800 but two men's DNA
00:23:28.880 got on this crime scene,
00:23:30.460 Howard?
00:23:31.260 Well, I'll throw out
00:23:32.300 a hypothesis,
00:23:32.960 and again,
00:23:33.760 it's just a hypothesis,
00:23:35.260 and maybe it's
00:23:35.900 a sketchy one,
00:23:36.880 but I believe
00:23:38.400 Kohlberger was guilty.
00:23:39.620 I can't get around
00:23:40.460 the cheek swab DNA
00:23:41.900 that ties him there.
00:23:43.280 So if he was out
00:23:44.340 to commit
00:23:44.980 the perfect crime,
00:23:46.600 if he was a student
00:23:47.760 of forensics,
00:23:50.520 he could have taken
00:23:52.360 a vial of blood
00:23:53.520 with him.
00:23:54.420 He could have put it
00:23:55.180 on the banister.
00:23:56.060 He could have taken
00:23:56.660 a glove
00:23:57.340 with blood
00:23:58.240 already embedded in it
00:24:00.600 and left it
00:24:01.300 at the crime scene,
00:24:02.080 and he could have
00:24:02.880 done this deliberately
00:24:04.040 to put the police
00:24:06.320 and the authorities
00:24:07.040 to look for
00:24:08.020 two other people,
00:24:09.520 and he would have,
00:24:10.240 meanwhile,
00:24:10.660 been just
00:24:11.140 gotten away with it,
00:24:13.200 and it all would have
00:24:13.960 worked
00:24:14.320 if he hadn't left
00:24:15.820 the knife sheath
00:24:16.460 behind.
00:24:16.920 It's a fascinating theory.
00:24:21.060 All I could think of
00:24:22.440 when you were saying it
00:24:23.280 was, of course,
00:24:24.180 the famous Johnny Cochran,
00:24:25.700 if the glove doesn't fit,
00:24:27.500 you must acquit.
00:24:29.040 Right.
00:24:29.300 And I bet you anything
00:24:30.420 that glove does not fit
00:24:31.700 Brian Kohlberger's hand.
00:24:34.420 And, you know,
00:24:35.140 if this is true, right?
00:24:36.140 Like, what if he,
00:24:37.960 as this, you know,
00:24:38.620 he's just getting his PhD
00:24:39.960 in criminology.
00:24:41.480 He's a TA in criminology.
00:24:43.580 All he does is study crime,
00:24:45.000 and apparently
00:24:45.420 he was very good,
00:24:46.420 a very good student of it,
00:24:47.980 very annoying
00:24:48.880 and irritating
00:24:49.580 to everybody he worked with
00:24:50.620 at Washington University.
00:24:53.500 But what if,
00:24:55.100 what if he really did do that?
00:24:56.280 What if somehow
00:24:56.740 he had access
00:24:57.300 to somebody's blood?
00:24:58.140 I don't know
00:24:58.400 how he would have gotten it,
00:24:59.220 but there is some speculation
00:25:00.780 this may not have been
00:25:01.600 his first crime.
00:25:02.560 If this was his crime,
00:25:03.740 it was so meticulous
00:25:04.660 and well-handled.
00:25:05.860 Perhaps this wasn't
00:25:06.680 his first rodeo.
00:25:08.280 And what if,
00:25:09.480 what if that really was
00:25:10.480 like an homage almost?
00:25:12.300 You know,
00:25:12.620 the two gloves,
00:25:13.500 reasonable doubt.
00:25:15.720 Right.
00:25:16.400 And,
00:25:16.760 and it would have worked.
00:25:18.140 And,
00:25:18.600 you know,
00:25:19.220 the police to this day
00:25:20.280 can't identify
00:25:21.100 whose blood that was.
00:25:22.520 And again,
00:25:23.200 if he hadn't left
00:25:24.040 the knife sheath there,
00:25:25.780 I don't think
00:25:26.780 they would have been able
00:25:27.540 to ever get to him.
00:25:29.600 My God,
00:25:30.460 such a colossal error
00:25:32.500 on his part.
00:25:33.400 I,
00:25:33.660 I know this is a weird
00:25:35.300 place to go,
00:25:36.040 but I,
00:25:36.500 I'd give anything
00:25:37.460 to have been there
00:25:39.620 when he realized
00:25:40.800 he forgot it.
00:25:41.680 You know,
00:25:42.840 to see the look,
00:25:43.820 the look come
00:25:44.900 over his face
00:25:45.640 when he realized
00:25:46.300 his perfect crime
00:25:47.140 had been foiled
00:25:48.040 by him.
00:25:50.100 Losing something
00:25:50.980 as basic
00:25:51.800 as the knife sheath,
00:25:53.460 as incriminating
00:25:54.680 as the knife sheath,
00:25:56.060 and then just praying
00:25:56.920 to God
00:25:57.500 that all the times
00:25:58.440 he handled it
00:25:59.060 with gloves on
00:25:59.880 protected him
00:26:01.080 from fingerprints
00:26:02.260 or anything
00:26:02.700 that would tie him
00:26:03.520 to it,
00:26:04.140 and yet he wasn't
00:26:05.180 careful enough.
00:26:06.780 And yet,
00:26:08.180 if his lawyers
00:26:08.860 can get the evidence
00:26:10.180 on the knife sheath
00:26:11.180 thrown out
00:26:12.180 because of FBI
00:26:13.660 overzealousness,
00:26:17.400 it can turn
00:26:18.840 the whole case
00:26:19.820 upside down,
00:26:21.760 and an innocent man
00:26:22.660 could be found,
00:26:23.660 I mean,
00:26:23.980 a guilty man
00:26:24.660 could be found
00:26:25.240 not innocent,
00:26:27.220 but not guilty.
00:26:28.320 Not guilty.
00:26:29.020 All right,
00:26:29.160 now we have to talk
00:26:29.660 about the eyewitness,
00:26:30.580 but before we do,
00:26:31.640 I want to say this.
00:26:32.380 This is the first time
00:26:32.860 I really thought
00:26:34.280 about the DNA
00:26:36.260 now that they've been caught.
00:26:38.280 Right?
00:26:38.440 The FBI,
00:26:39.320 they shouldn't have used
00:26:40.320 those private company databases.
00:26:43.100 They did.
00:26:44.180 They're obviously much bigger
00:26:45.380 because a lot more people
00:26:46.140 would give their DNA
00:26:47.720 if they knew
00:26:48.180 it was going to stay private
00:26:49.320 and not be available
00:26:50.020 to law enforcement.
00:26:51.120 So they did,
00:26:52.080 and that's how they found
00:26:52.720 Brian Kohlberger's dad.
00:26:55.120 To me,
00:26:56.080 there's actually no chance
00:26:57.540 of the judge suppressing
00:26:59.120 the genetic genealogy,
00:27:01.780 the touch DNA,
00:27:02.540 or anything
00:27:02.980 because of that,
00:27:03.980 because that is a violation
00:27:06.620 of the terms of service.
00:27:08.020 I assume it's Ancestry DNA
00:27:09.260 and 23andMe.
00:27:10.140 I don't know,
00:27:10.700 but those are the two big ones.
00:27:11.900 It's MyHeritage.
00:27:12.860 It's MyHeritage DNA.
00:27:14.320 That was the one site
00:27:15.160 that was cited in court.
00:27:16.880 Okay.
00:27:17.700 So that's a violation
00:27:19.640 of the terms of service
00:27:20.640 of that company.
00:27:22.780 That company has rules
00:27:24.000 that law enforcement's
00:27:25.220 not supposed to go on there.
00:27:26.820 But I don't think
00:27:28.600 there's a law
00:27:29.380 saying you've broken
00:27:30.280 the law as a cop
00:27:31.280 if you go on there.
00:27:32.580 It's just like the cop
00:27:33.760 violated a term of service
00:27:36.860 of a private company.
00:27:38.180 So that's between
00:27:39.400 the cop and the company.
00:27:41.260 Maybe the police department
00:27:43.540 gets sued over that.
00:27:45.920 But I don't see
00:27:46.500 how that helps
00:27:47.080 the defendant
00:27:47.780 whose DNA was uploaded.
00:27:51.320 I agree with you.
00:27:52.480 I think they're just
00:27:53.640 trying to create
00:27:54.440 as many arguments
00:27:55.300 as they can
00:27:56.080 to force the defense
00:27:58.380 trying to force the issue.
00:27:59.480 I do think
00:28:00.440 Kohlberger's relatives
00:28:01.400 if they wanted to
00:28:02.540 could sue the police
00:28:04.260 department,
00:28:05.200 the FBI
00:28:05.660 who did this.
00:28:07.180 I think the FBI
00:28:07.940 agents who did this
00:28:09.200 could be reprimanded
00:28:10.560 by the Justice Department.
00:28:12.600 Those things could happen.
00:28:13.920 But I don't think
00:28:14.640 it will affect
00:28:15.520 Kohlberger's case.
00:28:16.920 But again,
00:28:17.600 I was totally surprised
00:28:19.480 that the judge
00:28:20.060 left open
00:28:21.000 the possibility
00:28:21.760 of a Frank's hearing.
00:28:22.620 And if this happens,
00:28:24.140 if there is
00:28:24.760 a Frank's hearing,
00:28:25.860 then it's potentially
00:28:27.300 a whole new ballgame.
00:28:29.600 So interesting.
00:28:30.620 Okay, let's get
00:28:31.180 to Dylan Mortensen,
00:28:32.700 right,
00:28:33.060 who is the eyewitness.
00:28:36.080 He went in
00:28:37.220 in the middle of the night.
00:28:38.680 He killed
00:28:39.160 four roommates.
00:28:41.480 But there was
00:28:42.020 one roommate,
00:28:42.700 there's another roommate
00:28:43.780 who wasn't there
00:28:44.380 and there was
00:28:44.900 this roommate,
00:28:46.240 Dylan,
00:28:46.580 shown here.
00:28:47.540 And she is what
00:28:48.500 they called
00:28:49.040 an eyewitness
00:28:49.800 in the affidavit.
00:28:51.300 She said
00:28:52.280 she saw a man
00:28:53.800 of medium build
00:28:54.620 with bushy eyebrows
00:28:56.820 wearing like a COVID mask
00:28:58.240 that they made
00:28:59.700 eye contact
00:29:00.340 with one another.
00:29:01.080 She was frozen
00:29:01.720 in a frozen shock phase.
00:29:04.320 And he went by her.
00:29:06.500 She went back
00:29:07.300 into her room.
00:29:07.960 She locked the door.
00:29:08.820 She stayed in her room
00:29:09.960 until almost noon
00:29:11.080 the next day
00:29:11.940 as her roommates
00:29:12.640 were bleeding to death.
00:29:14.740 No one can understand
00:29:15.740 the decision making,
00:29:16.980 but no one's been
00:29:18.120 in such a situation.
00:29:19.180 I don't understand
00:29:20.220 what happened
00:29:20.700 with Dylan.
00:29:21.160 No one does.
00:29:21.940 But talk about
00:29:24.040 like your witness collapsing.
00:29:27.100 She may not even be able
00:29:28.500 to give the prosecution
00:29:29.420 what I just said.
00:29:32.200 Exactly.
00:29:32.980 What happened was
00:29:34.040 what you related
00:29:35.080 was happened
00:29:35.820 in the first interview
00:29:37.220 the police had
00:29:38.520 with Dylan
00:29:39.620 over that week
00:29:42.080 and the next week
00:29:43.140 that followed.
00:29:43.860 There were three
00:29:44.360 more interviews.
00:29:45.560 Those three interviews,
00:29:46.880 she seemed to change
00:29:48.720 her story.
00:29:49.840 She said that perhaps
00:29:50.960 it was sort of a dream
00:29:52.080 she was seeing.
00:29:53.260 She couldn't be sure.
00:29:55.020 Then she said
00:29:55.780 that one of the victims
00:29:57.080 had gone down the stairs
00:29:58.560 and that wasn't possible
00:29:59.980 because the victim
00:30:00.740 had died in her bed.
00:30:03.260 And then she admitted
00:30:04.640 finally that she was
00:30:06.140 just too drunk.
00:30:07.480 Too drunk
00:30:08.120 was the words
00:30:08.700 that Ann Taylor used
00:30:09.900 to come to any
00:30:11.360 reasonable
00:30:12.300 consideration
00:30:15.060 of what happened
00:30:15.880 that night.
00:30:17.200 And then finally
00:30:17.940 on the fourth interview
00:30:19.040 just before they were
00:30:20.140 going to arrest
00:30:22.020 Koberger in Pennsylvania
00:30:23.060 the Idaho cops
00:30:25.180 showed her a picture
00:30:25.980 of Koberger
00:30:26.660 and asked
00:30:27.620 can you identify him?
00:30:29.380 And she said
00:30:30.400 no, I can't.
00:30:33.220 And that really
00:30:34.200 really weakens
00:30:36.300 her use as a witness
00:30:38.000 between being too drunk
00:30:39.800 between saying
00:30:41.160 that she might have
00:30:41.840 been dreaming
00:30:42.340 the whole thing
00:30:43.200 and then not being able
00:30:44.820 to identify
00:30:46.000 the photograph.
00:30:47.760 Well, the prosecution's
00:30:50.020 big witness
00:30:51.000 has, I don't even know
00:30:52.840 if she'll testify
00:30:53.500 at the trial.
00:30:54.460 I don't know
00:30:54.800 if she will either
00:30:55.320 and that may have been
00:30:56.040 the point of her
00:30:57.720 changing her testimony.
00:30:59.740 Like picture a scenario
00:31:00.660 in which she's just
00:31:01.220 too terrified
00:31:01.820 to sit in a courtroom
00:31:03.240 across from this guy
00:31:04.300 and also in front
00:31:06.340 of the public
00:31:06.880 which
00:31:07.260 I mean,
00:31:08.360 she didn't have
00:31:08.700 anything to do
00:31:09.040 with these crimes.
00:31:09.800 It's just, you know,
00:31:10.340 there's a fair amount
00:31:11.040 of like
00:31:11.400 what kind of a person
00:31:13.000 would go back
00:31:13.520 into their room
00:31:14.160 and not call 911
00:31:15.640 after, you know,
00:31:17.940 she's saying
00:31:18.620 she's so afraid
00:31:19.860 of this person
00:31:20.360 she went into shock.
00:31:21.700 You know,
00:31:22.180 it's just hard
00:31:22.680 to understand.
00:31:23.340 I'm not trying
00:31:23.880 to be unforgiving
00:31:24.720 toward her.
00:31:25.340 I don't want to
00:31:27.000 you know,
00:31:27.720 pun her character.
00:31:29.120 I mean,
00:31:29.360 who knows what's
00:31:29.940 going on
00:31:30.440 in anyone's mind.
00:31:31.940 But not only
00:31:32.700 does she not
00:31:33.220 call the police
00:31:33.940 for eight hours,
00:31:35.060 the first people
00:31:35.760 she calls
00:31:36.440 are not an ambulance,
00:31:38.220 not the police,
00:31:39.360 but she calls
00:31:39.980 fraternity people
00:31:41.380 to come and come
00:31:42.420 to the house.
00:31:43.240 They come
00:31:44.000 and they call
00:31:45.100 the police.
00:31:47.080 And they are
00:31:47.740 the ones we believe
00:31:48.500 now, Howard,
00:31:49.000 who found the bodies?
00:31:49.780 Yes.
00:31:52.040 There's a new video
00:31:53.220 that just was released
00:31:55.000 last week
00:31:55.800 and you can see
00:31:56.980 Ethan's twin brother,
00:31:58.620 there actually were
00:31:59.140 triplets,
00:32:00.120 sitting outside the house
00:32:02.020 the moment when
00:32:02.580 the police arrived
00:32:03.380 and he's wearing
00:32:03.920 a pink sweatshirt
00:32:05.300 sitting by a dumpster
00:32:06.460 with his head
00:32:07.520 in his hands.
00:32:08.800 It's a very poignant video.
00:32:11.160 Wow.
00:32:12.100 So she,
00:32:12.580 because that was always
00:32:13.280 one of the big mysteries
00:32:14.060 that it was somebody else,
00:32:15.820 it wasn't Dylan
00:32:16.460 who called 911
00:32:17.300 when ultimately
00:32:18.600 the authorities were called
00:32:19.620 and we didn't know
00:32:20.120 who it was,
00:32:21.060 but now we believe
00:32:22.060 it was the fraternity brothers
00:32:23.600 who she called
00:32:24.420 to come over to the house.
00:32:25.120 Yes.
00:32:25.620 The fraternity brother,
00:32:26.660 the actual fraternity brother
00:32:27.700 who made the call
00:32:29.320 was Ethan's best friend
00:32:31.660 and the police
00:32:33.540 have never released
00:32:34.400 that 911 call.
00:32:37.060 I imagine it will be
00:32:38.000 played at the trial.
00:32:40.320 That is unbelievable.
00:32:41.740 So she is saying
00:32:43.620 she doesn't know
00:32:44.580 if she actually saw him
00:32:46.340 or if it was her mind
00:32:48.440 playing with her.
00:32:50.180 She conceded that
00:32:50.960 she had a lot to drink
00:32:52.020 and was too inebriated
00:32:53.260 to remember anything
00:32:54.240 that happened
00:32:54.880 that night
00:32:55.840 with any authority
00:32:56.620 and when they showed her
00:32:58.340 a photo of Kohlberger
00:32:59.340 after the fact,
00:33:00.140 she failed to identify him
00:33:01.820 as the intruder
00:33:02.540 she had seen.
00:33:03.520 These are terrible facts.
00:33:06.540 Not a very good witness.
00:33:08.660 No, no.
00:33:10.220 She's not going to be
00:33:10.920 helpful at all
00:33:11.860 and it's unfortunate.
00:33:13.380 Their case doesn't
00:33:14.160 rise or fall on her,
00:33:15.940 but boy,
00:33:17.420 you'd much rather
00:33:18.260 have her say,
00:33:19.380 I'll never forget
00:33:20.480 those bushy eyebrows
00:33:21.440 and if I see those eyes again,
00:33:23.060 I'll know them
00:33:23.740 and then say,
00:33:24.980 there they are
00:33:26.440 right there
00:33:27.220 at defense table.
00:33:29.100 Right.
00:33:29.720 And what's making
00:33:30.860 all these doubts
00:33:32.500 about the case
00:33:33.420 have even more weight,
00:33:35.560 there's a bill
00:33:36.360 that's just been introduced
00:33:37.380 in the Idaho legislature
00:33:38.820 was at the beginning
00:33:40.280 of January
00:33:41.100 where right now
00:33:43.520 the death penalty
00:33:44.720 is administered
00:33:45.860 through a chemical injection
00:33:47.160 and then if the chemicals
00:33:48.340 aren't available,
00:33:49.480 then there is a firing squad.
00:33:51.380 Well, the Idaho
00:33:52.200 new bill
00:33:53.560 wants to get rid
00:33:54.480 of the chemical injections
00:33:56.100 and just make it
00:33:56.900 a firing squad.
00:33:58.660 Wow.
00:33:59.360 They are demanding
00:34:01.140 their pound of flesh
00:34:02.920 in a sense
00:34:03.800 and that's going
00:34:05.440 to, you know,
00:34:06.100 going to weigh
00:34:07.080 on the jury too,
00:34:08.540 I think.
00:34:10.560 Wow.
00:34:11.620 I don't know.
00:34:12.380 I'm fine
00:34:13.080 with the death penalty.
00:34:13.900 I really am.
00:34:14.720 Like O'Reilly
00:34:15.300 always used to say
00:34:15.900 he was against it
00:34:16.460 because he thought
00:34:17.820 it was too easy
00:34:19.120 on the defendant.
00:34:20.100 You know,
00:34:20.240 he wanted them
00:34:20.700 to suffer in prison.
00:34:21.700 I just feel like
00:34:22.320 if Brian Colbert
00:34:23.240 committed these crimes,
00:34:24.860 he killed these four
00:34:25.560 young, beautiful people
00:34:27.080 in the prime
00:34:27.620 of their lives,
00:34:28.400 I'd have absolutely
00:34:29.640 no qualms at all
00:34:30.420 seeing him shot down
00:34:31.240 by a firing squad.
00:34:32.100 I might actually
00:34:32.600 celebrate it.
00:34:34.540 Well, you might
00:34:35.220 be able to get
00:34:35.620 on the jury then.
00:34:37.380 Well, maybe
00:34:38.200 I'll at least
00:34:38.580 go out there.
00:34:39.420 I don't know.
00:34:39.640 I just feel like
00:34:40.060 I have no empathy
00:34:41.260 for a person like that.
00:34:42.160 Again, it's not
00:34:42.700 totally consistent
00:34:43.320 with my Catholic faith,
00:34:44.500 but that's just
00:34:46.060 how I genuinely feel.
00:34:47.020 I just feel like
00:34:47.680 those people
00:34:48.400 shouldn't be allowed
00:34:48.900 to roam the earth
00:34:49.540 any longer,
00:34:50.220 but I have to be honest.
00:34:52.220 I don't like the fact
00:34:53.340 that all the supporting
00:34:54.200 evidence is falling apart.
00:34:56.400 And, you know,
00:34:57.480 when we talk about
00:34:58.320 how the cheek swab
00:34:59.380 matched Brian Kohlberger,
00:35:01.140 what we're saying
00:35:02.040 is the cheek
00:35:03.720 Brian Kohlberger's DNA
00:35:05.660 was definitely
00:35:07.140 on the knife sheath.
00:35:08.360 That's what that proves.
00:35:09.880 It was his DNA
00:35:11.500 on the knife sheath.
00:35:12.580 But let's be honest,
00:35:14.060 all that really proves
00:35:14.960 is that he touched
00:35:16.420 that knife sheath
00:35:17.280 at some point.
00:35:18.920 It does not
00:35:19.320 prove murder.
00:35:20.800 Exactly.
00:35:21.520 Ann Taylor's big question
00:35:23.000 and what her defense
00:35:24.740 is all going to be
00:35:25.520 based around
00:35:26.140 is how did the knife sheath
00:35:28.600 get in that bedroom?
00:35:30.320 Who could have put it there?
00:35:31.680 It wasn't Brian Kohlberger.
00:35:34.360 Right.
00:35:35.180 And if there's,
00:35:37.020 you know,
00:35:37.300 if the car evidence
00:35:38.500 is falling apart,
00:35:39.480 right,
00:35:39.660 like it's true,
00:35:40.360 you can never see
00:35:40.980 the driver
00:35:41.520 nor the license plate.
00:35:44.780 Right?
00:35:45.280 You can't see
00:35:45.600 the license plate
00:35:46.160 in any of these videos.
00:35:46.660 You can't see
00:35:47.000 the license plate.
00:35:47.740 You can't see
00:35:48.140 the driver.
00:35:48.920 And it took the FBI
00:35:50.020 three shots
00:35:51.540 until they were able
00:35:52.580 to identify the car.
00:35:54.160 So Ann Taylor
00:35:56.440 is going to argue
00:35:57.140 it took the FBI
00:35:58.300 three times.
00:35:59.320 Maybe it should have
00:36:00.220 taken them four times
00:36:01.280 and they would have
00:36:01.740 finally gotten it right.
00:36:03.920 And then the cell phone
00:36:05.680 hits,
00:36:06.980 they're helpful,
00:36:08.460 but they're not ballgame.
00:36:10.660 But without a motive,
00:36:12.080 without a connection.
00:36:13.640 Go ahead.
00:36:13.940 What were you going to say?
00:36:15.240 The cell phone hits
00:36:16.360 or 10 miles
00:36:17.100 in a town like Moscow.
00:36:19.000 You could be,
00:36:19.660 you know,
00:36:20.520 on the other side of town
00:36:21.560 seeing someone.
00:36:22.980 I mean,
00:36:23.160 that's what Ann Taylor
00:36:24.120 said at the hearing.
00:36:24.900 Did the prosecution
00:36:25.460 push back at that,
00:36:26.640 on that at all?
00:36:27.220 Because I've definitely
00:36:27.900 heard prosecutors argue,
00:36:29.080 no,
00:36:29.260 they can be more specific
00:36:30.420 than that.
00:36:31.440 It was so interesting
00:36:32.700 to me at the hearing.
00:36:34.280 The prosecution
00:36:34.800 didn't really argue
00:36:37.040 any of her points.
00:36:38.200 I mean,
00:36:38.640 when she said
00:36:39.300 it was an outright lie,
00:36:41.700 that was her words,
00:36:42.660 outright lie,
00:36:43.700 that he had stalked
00:36:44.780 any of the victims,
00:36:45.540 they didn't argue.
00:36:47.120 They went along with that.
00:36:48.460 That there was no blood evidence,
00:36:49.780 they didn't argue.
00:36:50.780 There were no dog hairs
00:36:51.900 found anywhere on Kohlberger.
00:36:54.020 They didn't argue.
00:36:55.160 They seemed to be
00:36:56.040 conceding all these points
00:36:57.880 except for the DNA evidence.
00:37:00.280 That's not good enough.
00:37:01.560 That's not good enough
00:37:02.220 because it'd be one thing
00:37:03.100 if his blood
00:37:03.940 were at the scene
00:37:05.420 and that was a match
00:37:07.640 to the cheek swab.
00:37:08.920 What we're saying
00:37:09.580 the cheek swab
00:37:10.640 matched
00:37:11.900 was that one piece
00:37:13.140 of touch DNA
00:37:13.760 on the knife sheath
00:37:14.640 which I realize
00:37:15.400 is a good fact
00:37:16.000 for the prosecution
00:37:16.580 but it's not ballgame.
00:37:17.760 It's maybe
00:37:18.460 maybe he somehow
00:37:19.660 touched the knife
00:37:20.260 at a friend's house.
00:37:21.120 Maybe he touched it
00:37:21.780 in a store.
00:37:22.460 Maybe I know
00:37:23.320 he purchased a knife
00:37:24.260 on Amazon
00:37:24.900 that appears to have
00:37:25.620 been a K-bar knife
00:37:26.460 but maybe somebody
00:37:27.460 stole that knife from him.
00:37:29.220 There's a lot of loops
00:37:30.240 the prosecution's
00:37:30.980 going to have to close.
00:37:31.700 I mean you're a good lawyer.
00:37:33.300 You're raising
00:37:33.620 all the right questions
00:37:34.720 and now that
00:37:35.660 unknown male blood
00:37:37.360 has been found
00:37:37.960 in the house
00:37:38.600 that raises the possibility
00:37:40.340 of accomplices
00:37:41.300 other people there
00:37:42.420 on the murder night
00:37:43.680 because it's not
00:37:44.400 fingerprints that were found
00:37:45.640 it's blood.
00:37:46.880 Would you leave
00:37:47.420 blood at a party?
00:37:48.440 I don't know.
00:37:50.300 But back to our
00:37:51.580 my favorite piece
00:37:53.760 of evidence
00:37:54.200 the fact that he was
00:37:56.480 shoving his garbage
00:37:57.840 into little baggies
00:37:58.960 for disposal
00:37:59.840 in the neighbor's trash
00:38:01.340 the cops had already
00:38:02.120 realized he was
00:38:02.660 disposing of his trash
00:38:03.480 in the neighbor's
00:38:04.020 the night the FBI
00:38:05.240 raided his parents
00:38:06.100 home in the Poconos
00:38:06.780 back home in Pennsylvania
00:38:07.640 when he went on
00:38:08.580 winter break
00:38:09.040 is just absolutely
00:38:10.820 devastating
00:38:11.720 though I will acknowledge
00:38:13.160 it is possible
00:38:15.040 a crafty defense attorney
00:38:16.240 will find some
00:38:17.440 willing family member
00:38:19.080 or someone
00:38:19.900 to say there was
00:38:21.500 a reason for that.
00:38:22.400 Like he
00:38:22.940 he's got OCD
00:38:24.540 he always did this
00:38:26.240 he'd done it for years
00:38:27.860 we didn't know why
00:38:29.000 I don't know why
00:38:30.020 if he had to
00:38:31.300 put his things
00:38:31.660 in Ziploc baggies
00:38:32.540 he couldn't have
00:38:32.940 put it out
00:38:33.340 in his own trash
00:38:34.160 had to go in
00:38:34.540 the neighbor's trash
00:38:35.440 but that's
00:38:36.360 a terrible fact
00:38:37.280 for the defense.
00:38:38.740 Well the defense
00:38:39.460 is going to try
00:38:40.160 to get around that
00:38:40.940 in one way
00:38:41.700 is that
00:38:42.640 Koberger's family
00:38:45.200 parents lived
00:38:46.060 in a sort of
00:38:46.640 gated community
00:38:47.540 and they had
00:38:50.040 a garbage service.
00:38:51.980 The FBI
00:38:52.560 and the
00:38:53.920 Pennsylvania State Police
00:38:55.340 got Koberger's garbage
00:38:56.840 from this garbage
00:38:58.500 company
00:38:59.080 they
00:39:00.200 the defense
00:39:01.620 is going to claim
00:39:02.460 they did not have
00:39:03.140 a valid
00:39:03.720 search warrant
00:39:04.900 a valid warrant
00:39:05.920 to get this garbage
00:39:07.240 from
00:39:08.340 the private
00:39:09.660 carding company.
00:39:11.380 I don't know
00:39:11.660 if that's going to
00:39:12.500 hold up in court
00:39:13.620 but that's the argument
00:39:14.600 they're going to raise.
00:39:15.820 So the best case scenario
00:39:16.580 there would be
00:39:17.080 they exclude
00:39:17.780 the fact that
00:39:18.420 they found
00:39:18.760 the Koberger's trash
00:39:19.720 in the neighbor's
00:39:20.540 trash bin
00:39:21.160 but it would not exclude
00:39:22.840 them finding him
00:39:25.300 shoving his trash
00:39:26.640 into individual
00:39:27.640 Ziploc baggies
00:39:28.660 at the moment
00:39:29.480 of the arrest
00:39:30.180 in the middle
00:39:30.800 of the night.
00:39:31.860 That sounds like
00:39:33.540 a criminal
00:39:34.540 with something to hide
00:39:35.880 not an honest
00:39:36.920 criminology student
00:39:38.220 who's been
00:39:38.720 you know
00:39:39.380 wrongly accused.
00:39:40.860 I agree
00:39:41.680 but at the same time
00:39:42.780 he's a very strange
00:39:44.880 young man
00:39:45.560 he has visual snow
00:39:47.240 he was a heroin addict
00:39:48.520 he has strange practices
00:39:50.440 he goes off
00:39:51.360 at four in the morning
00:39:52.360 to look at stars
00:39:53.340 in a wilderness park
00:39:54.460 on a foggy night
00:39:55.500 would he put his garbage
00:39:57.120 into separate bags
00:39:58.160 who knows.
00:40:00.100 Oh my god
00:40:00.880 this is
00:40:01.460 Howard's just giving us
00:40:02.440 a preview
00:40:02.820 of how this is going
00:40:03.480 to sound
00:40:03.920 a trial.
00:40:04.580 I mean it's going to be
00:40:05.140 a very interesting trial
00:40:06.680 even the jury selection
00:40:08.280 is going to be interesting.
00:40:10.260 And they're going to
00:40:11.280 like this is a good preview
00:40:12.400 because Ann Taylor
00:40:13.200 is going to pick apart
00:40:13.940 every piece
00:40:15.460 of the prosecution's case
00:40:17.040 like every piece
00:40:17.820 nothing will be allowed
00:40:18.740 without objection
00:40:20.220 without a counter
00:40:21.200 narrative
00:40:22.000 and all she needs
00:40:23.640 is one juror
00:40:24.600 she just needs one
00:40:26.340 to say
00:40:26.820 I don't have
00:40:27.500 total confidence
00:40:28.520 I have reasonable doubt.
00:40:30.200 And in a murder case
00:40:31.240 you really got to be sure
00:40:32.580 if you're sending someone off
00:40:33.740 either for a lethal injection
00:40:35.420 or a firing squad
00:40:36.400 you want to make sure
00:40:37.580 beyond a shadow of a doubt
00:40:38.860 that you're doing
00:40:39.620 the right thing.
00:40:41.140 Oh my god
00:40:41.880 this makes me feel sick
00:40:42.920 I have like acid
00:40:43.780 in my stomach
00:40:44.320 from this discussion
00:40:45.080 I just
00:40:45.580 I wish they had more
00:40:47.100 I know
00:40:48.220 no it was an important hearing
00:40:49.860 you learned a ton
00:40:50.700 we corresponded privately
00:40:52.300 I was like
00:40:52.720 oh my god
00:40:53.720 well we've all been
00:40:54.440 paying attention
00:40:54.960 to Trump
00:40:55.320 Trump
00:40:55.500 Trump
00:40:55.680 Trump
00:40:55.860 stuff's really been
00:40:58.080 happening in this
00:40:58.720 very important case
00:40:59.980 that I mean truly
00:41:00.980 this is
00:41:01.440 we laugh
00:41:01.960 because it's like
00:41:02.480 now it's easier
00:41:03.320 to just talk about
00:41:03.960 the legalities of it
00:41:04.900 but these four beautiful
00:41:06.320 college students
00:41:07.560 and once again
00:41:08.320 they are
00:41:08.760 Madison Mogan
00:41:09.580 Kaylee Gonsalves
00:41:10.580 Zanacrenodal
00:41:11.620 and Ethan Chapin
00:41:12.480 murdered
00:41:14.140 right in the prime
00:41:14.820 of their life
00:41:15.200 November 2022
00:41:16.280 and their families
00:41:17.420 deserve justice
00:41:18.660 and they deserved it
00:41:19.720 before this August
00:41:20.760 it's been too long
00:41:21.940 did they talk at all
00:41:23.140 about moving the trial date
00:41:24.080 or do we think
00:41:24.520 it's on for August?
00:41:25.740 Well they're trying
00:41:26.440 I think it will take place
00:41:28.000 I don't think this judge
00:41:29.100 is going to delay
00:41:30.340 any longer
00:41:30.960 but the defense
00:41:32.360 is still asking
00:41:33.200 for more time
00:41:34.020 we'll see if he grants it
00:41:35.420 I don't believe he will
00:41:36.820 but
00:41:37.100 no
00:41:37.960 I was surprised
00:41:38.820 he raised the possibility
00:41:40.320 of a Frank's hearing
00:41:41.180 that shocked me
00:41:42.580 yep
00:41:43.560 the families deserve
00:41:44.940 just let's have a trial
00:41:46.780 there's nothing
00:41:47.100 that's going to be gained
00:41:48.200 by a delay
00:41:49.060 by the defense
00:41:50.440 or the prosecution
00:41:51.020 frankly
00:41:51.400 thank you so much
00:41:53.220 Howard Bloom
00:41:53.700 and people can get
00:41:55.080 your latest reporting
00:41:55.840 on this case
00:41:57.760 in airmail
00:41:58.640 in airmail
00:42:00.120 and in my book
00:42:01.180 When the Night Comes Falling
00:42:02.380 awesome
00:42:03.600 okay
00:42:04.300 check out his book
00:42:05.260 I've read it
00:42:05.680 it was great
00:42:06.280 and airmail
00:42:07.200 is a subscription publication
00:42:08.620 that you can get
00:42:09.220 just google it
00:42:09.740 and you'll see
00:42:10.200 it's run by
00:42:11.540 Graydon Carter
00:42:12.060 former guy
00:42:13.500 behind Vanity Fair
00:42:14.380 thanks to all of you
00:42:15.620 for watching and listening
00:42:16.600 and don't forget
00:42:17.100 we will be back
00:42:17.960 in just a couple of hours
00:42:19.080 with our full show
00:42:20.740 don't miss that
00:42:21.700 talk to you later
00:42:22.380 thanks for listening
00:42:37.980 to the Megan Kelly show
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