The Megyn Kelly Show - Should Trump Judge Recuse Himself, and Disturbing Ruby Franke Details, with Arthur Aidala and Mark Eiglarsh ｜ Ep. 755

00:00:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.200 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.700 Kelly's Court is now in session. We've got a packed show full of analysis on all the big legal stories making headlines.

00:00:22.460 The judge overseeing Donald Trump's upcoming criminal trial in New York about those Stormy Daniels hush payments.

00:00:28.260 Since expanding the gag order placed on the former president, Mr. Trump can no longer attack the judge's politically active adult daughter whose clients include some of Trump's loudest opponents.

00:00:41.820 Fair? Plus, we'll dive deep into the investigation into P. Diddy and what we're learning, and we will take a look at the evidence just released by prosecutors in the Ruby Frankie case.

00:00:51.700 She's the YouTube star now in prison for abusing her children. This one is so disturbing, and what they just released is truly shocking.

00:01:00.360 Does the sentence fit the crime? But we begin today with the question of whether J.K. Rowling may be going to jail.

00:01:08.820 Her possible offense? Speaking the truth about gender ideology. 1.00

00:01:13.220 The famous author lives in Glasgow, Scotland, where a new law just went into effect on Monday, criminalizing the act of, quote, stirring up hatred by speaking or behaving in a way that, quote, a reasonable person would consider to be threatening, abusive, or insulting.

00:01:34.600 Insulting? Yes, it is now criminal to insult someone in Scotland, at least if it might, quote, stir up hatred.

00:01:45.900 Free speech is officially dead in Scotland. Scotland, which is literally known for the physical and mental toughness of its people.

00:01:52.760 A country famous for its never-ending gray and gloomy weather. In one area years ago, they only got 36 minutes of sunshine in a month, okay?

00:02:03.120 Seriously, the Scots are badass.

00:02:05.740 This is the place where clans survived amidst harsh conditions and hostile enemies for centuries.

00:02:12.160 They became infamous for fighting on amidst savage and merciless hostilities, but that was then.

00:02:18.860 Now, if their little feelings get hurt, someone's getting arrested and could possibly go to jail for up to seven years.

00:02:27.540 What are we doing?

00:02:29.620 The Scottish government says the law will protect against, quote, hate and prejudice without stifling expression, reports the BBC, which quotes the, quote, victims and community safety minister over there, Siobhan Brown, as downplaying fears over the legislation.

00:02:48.040 You see, Ms. Brown said, I think there's been a lot of misinformation about this, before pointing out that this law passed unanimously.

00:02:57.080 And speaking of misinformation, Ms. Brown, this abomination actually passed 82 to 32.

00:03:03.420 So far, too many yes votes for me, but 32 no's makes it non-unanimous, my friend.

00:03:09.680 While Great Britain, which includes Scotland, already criminalizes stirring up hatred based on race, color, nationality, or ethnicity, the Scottish law adds transgender identity, along with sexual orientation, religion, disability, and age to the list.

00:03:29.300 Women, notably, get nothing. 1.00

00:03:31.900 No protections.

00:03:34.260 So moms worried about autogynephiles, those who get sexually aroused from cross-dressing, which experts say constitutes over 82% of men claiming they are, quote, trans women.

00:03:50.100 So you're talking about the vast majority who get off by putting on women's clothes? 1.00

00:03:55.420 Those guys who decide to change in their little daughters' locker rooms, these moms' daughters' locker rooms, and get erections in their miniskirts?

00:04:04.300 Well, those moms can't say a word about that without potentially facing criminal threat. 1.00

00:04:08.420 So you can't insult those men.

00:04:11.080 Keep your mouths shut. 0.54

00:04:12.420 So their status as women earns them zero special rights, despite the fact that 91% of victims of rape and sexual assault are female. 0.97

00:04:23.300 Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

00:04:27.060 But if these males say they're female, you see, you need to STFU and accept that, quote, fact, or you're the one who could be headed to prison in Scotland.

00:04:39.920 This is madness.

00:04:40.820 But wait, supporters of the law remind us a defense to criminal charges under this law is that one's speech or actions, that they were reasonable.

00:04:54.020 Phew.

00:04:54.820 Thank God for that.

00:04:55.920 So people arrested for spewing these vile insults, and by that we mean saying fake women are really men, they needn't worry, you see.

00:05:05.200 After the embarrassment of a public arrest, potentially for saying something in your living room and not even in a public forum, and the expense of hiring an attorney, maybe a few nights in jail before the lucky ones bond out, you can go through the joys of a criminal trial.

00:05:21.320 Taking off work, taking off work, being publicly dragged as a criminal, and letting a jury of strangers decide whether your speech was reasonable in their view.

00:05:32.080 What are you complaining about?

00:05:34.040 You see, they care very much in Scotland about hurting the feelings of trans people. 0.98

00:05:39.340 Anyone else's humiliation, they don't give a damn.

00:05:41.600 Even misgendering someone, which means accurately gendering them, can land you in jail.

00:05:51.480 At Minister, I mentioned Ms. Brown, she was specifically asked about this, misgendering. 0.79

00:05:56.940 And she said, well, it would be up to the police to determine whether calling a he, a she, makes you a criminal. 0.74

00:06:06.360 Doesn't matter if you don't believe in the transgender cult or not, you will say she for a 6'6", 280-pound man who wants to play in your daughter's field hockey team. 0.70

00:06:17.780 Don't be so insensitive.

00:06:18.900 This is what J.K. Rowling is railing about correctly today as a resident of Scotland.

00:06:26.660 She says she's not there right now.

00:06:28.500 But if she gets arrested upon return, she says, bring it on.

00:06:33.040 And thank God she's got the money and power she does to fight this. 1.00

00:06:38.100 However, in Scotland, they're missing something called the U.S. Constitution

00:06:42.440 that protects free speech and the expression of one's opinion, and not to mention fact in this particular case.

00:06:51.200 These are not women. 1.00

00:06:52.180 These are men pretending to be women. 0.80

00:06:54.980 And J.K. Rowling is not afraid to say that, so she may very well soon be behind bars.

00:07:01.660 Finally, a word about America.

00:07:03.100 Right now, in most places, we are not arrested for speaking the truth about gender and biological sex,

00:07:10.320 no matter if someone finds it insulting.

00:07:13.420 That's why I can still freely say men cannot become women. 1.00

00:07:19.040 He's are he's, not she's. 0.99

00:07:21.980 Those surgical wounds are not vaginas. 1.00

00:07:25.840 Facial feminization will never make a man female. 1.00

00:07:28.800 Men who play women's sports are vile cheaters. 0.98

00:07:33.620 Men do not belong in women's bathrooms, locker rooms, sororities, prisons, or OBGYN offices. 0.99

00:07:41.320 Men cannot give birth. 0.99

00:07:43.720 Chest feeding is child abuse.

00:07:46.900 But far too many blue states are coming dangerously close to Scotland,

00:07:52.940 suggesting hostile work environments result from, quote, misgendering a colleague.

00:07:58.800 For example, we've seen that in California and other places.

00:08:02.460 Right now, the U.S. Supreme Court is holding the line.

00:08:06.980 It ruled last summer in 303 Creative, which we covered here on the show,

00:08:10.780 that governments may not compel speech by forcing citizens to speak messages they do not wish to speak.

00:08:19.860 But make no mistake, we are heading for a legal showdown on this issue here in America.

00:08:27.960 And it is imperative that we pay attention and win.

00:08:31.420 Joining me now, Arthur Idala.

00:08:36.500 He's partner at Idala, Bertuna, and Caymans and host of the Arthur Idala Power Hour.

00:08:42.460 And Mark Eiglarsh is a defense attorney at Eiglarsh Law, which you can find at speaktomark.com.

00:08:49.720 Martha, welcome back to the show. 0.62

00:08:52.160 Can you believe this insanity?

00:08:53.780 I mean, very nice, lighthearted topic to start off this session.

00:08:57.880 Well, it's outrageous, is it not?

00:09:01.860 Mark, I mean, you'd like to say never in America, but I'm not sure I totally believe that,

00:09:06.120 but never yet have we gone this far.

00:09:10.140 Megan, it sounds to me that free speech and fundamental fairness in Scotland

00:09:15.740 is as elusive and evasive as their national animal, the unicorn.

00:09:26.960 I think you're right, that could be J.K. Rowling's defense.

00:09:30.380 So, you know, we're always honest on this show.

00:09:33.620 And you're focusing basically on men transitioning to women or boys to girls.

00:09:39.200 But I was at a high school reunion, not even a year ago,

00:09:44.180 and there was a woman who I was very close with in high school almost 40 years ago.

00:09:49.040 And she starts to tell me this tale of her daughter, who was 16, transitioning into a boy.

00:09:57.620 And I think she just saw Megan, the look on my face, like, give me a break, right?

00:10:03.360 And she looks at me and she's like, Artie, after all the counseling,

00:10:07.160 after two suicide attempts with her, now he calls them him, begging for us to allow her to take these hormones.

00:10:17.020 She's like, you know, when you find your kid unconscious with a bottle of pills calling 911

00:10:22.180 and then they're saved, she's like, what were we supposed to do?

00:10:26.100 We did the counseling.

00:10:27.020 We did all kinds of counseling as families of her alone, him alone, whatever.

00:10:33.460 And so they – and now I wound up meeting this person, and, you know, it's supposed to call it a boy, 0.95

00:10:39.680 but it's a person with a vagina who has a beard, who's a sweet kid. 1.00

00:10:43.520 And, you know, you're – look, I was totally on your side of the fence until you were actually confronted with the reality of it, 0.99

00:10:52.160 the reality of suicide, the reality of a parent losing a child and doing anything they can not to lose a child.

00:10:57.940 First of all, I have two trans people in my family, okay?

00:11:01.100 So I understand trans.

00:11:03.480 That's not the same as the usurpation of women's spaces and women's rights. 1.00

00:11:08.200 It's not happening the other way around.

00:11:09.960 It's not happening the other way where girls pretend to be boys and then take over boys' rights, boys' opportunities, boys' safety. 0.96

00:11:19.180 That's not an issue.

00:11:21.020 But if your friend had a boy who tried to transition to girl and then play against my daughter in soccer,

00:11:28.720 you and I would be going at it.

00:11:31.340 It's not about bullying that kid.

00:11:33.640 It's about protecting my kid and other girls.

00:11:37.100 So that – you're raising something which is anecdotal and fine on a one-on-one.

00:11:42.200 I hope this young child gets better and feels better.

00:11:45.860 But that's beside the point.

00:11:48.520 I can still say that girl is a girl.

00:11:52.500 She's pretending to be a boy, and I hope she does better.

00:11:55.280 By the way, the counseling's part of the problem.

00:11:57.760 You take your gender-confused kid to a counselor. 1.00

00:12:00.120 In modern-day America, they are going to do one thing, affirm, affirm, affirm.

00:12:06.220 And you are setting them on a course to commitment to the other gender. 0.99

00:12:11.160 You are not helping them.

00:12:12.780 Read Irreversible Damage by J.K. Rowling.

00:12:15.400 Sorry, by Abigail Schreier.

00:12:17.220 Schreier.

00:12:17.420 To your point, here in Nassau County in New York, the Republican county supervisor, county executive,

00:12:26.480 he has passed a law – I don't know if it's really – he had the power, he's being disputed –

00:12:31.340 that the transgender men into women cannot participate in any girls' sports that are, I don't know,

00:12:37.880 in public institutions in Nassau County.

00:12:40.840 So there are people who are raising the flag and saying it's just not fair to the young women who try so hard.

00:12:47.400 And I did speak to someone whose daughter is in one of these sports, and they said besides the fact that it's an unfair advantage,

00:12:56.120 it also takes away all of the pomp and circumstance.

00:13:00.580 Like, that daughter is supposed to be the star of the team, but all of the notoriety,

00:13:04.560 all of the media attention is going towards the trans person as opposed to the person who's really the star of the lacrosse team

00:13:11.540 who's the best player on the team because, you know, it's a trans thing and it's an issue.

00:13:16.020 So on another level, he was talking about how negatively it affected her daughter.

00:13:22.120 I mean, Mark, J.K. Rowling lives there.

00:13:26.320 She lives in Glasgow.

00:13:27.800 She's just out of the country right now. 0.96

00:13:30.160 I'm sure she's got a very busy life.

00:13:31.400 So she's going to go back and she's going to do what she's been doing for years.

00:13:36.200 She's not even the pointy part of the spear on this issue. 0.97

00:13:39.760 You can get far more provocative on this subject than J.K. Rowling has.

00:13:43.900 J.K. Rowling has pretty much said men are men and women are women.

00:13:48.240 There are two sexes. 0.58

00:13:49.520 That's it. 1.00

00:13:50.300 And men can't have vaginas. 1.00

00:13:52.100 And we don't want to be called people with vaginas. 1.00

00:13:54.860 Things like that. 0.98

00:13:55.640 She's she's sort of high level.

00:13:57.660 She doesn't get down into the nitty gritty.

00:14:00.480 And yet there there's a real chance one of the most famous, richest women in the world 1.00

00:14:05.420 could wind up behind bars in her home country now as a result of this insanity. 0.95

00:14:10.280 And I feel for J.K.

00:14:11.680 I'm glad she's got billions.

00:14:13.340 But I'm more worried about places like California, where if you're at, you know, a company out

00:14:19.360 there and you work with a six foot six, 280 man who's calling himself a she and you don't 0.99

00:14:25.100 say she, you could be found guilty of creating a hostile wire environment or a work environment

00:14:32.340 and fired.

00:14:33.700 That's thanks to the law in the United States of America, at least in the People's Republic

00:14:37.880 of California.

00:14:39.480 All right.

00:14:39.720 So we have the Constitution here.

00:14:41.360 I'd like to believe that because of the wide latitude we're afforded to spew even outrageous

00:14:47.320 and offensive speech.

00:14:48.660 We're OK here.

00:14:50.460 I'm more concerned about Scotland, where we're not just talking about people who comment about

00:14:55.720 transgender issues.

00:14:57.020 It sounds like the law goes five steps in a completely different direction, affording

00:15:03.040 prosecution for anyone who now offends people.

00:15:07.520 The language is so broad and so problematic for me that it almost doesn't sound like it's

00:15:14.900 coming from anywhere other than a third world country.

00:15:18.080 Yeah.

00:15:18.800 Insult, Arthur.

00:15:20.060 Insult.

00:15:20.520 Can you imagine here in the United States if you could get arrested for insulting somebody?

00:15:25.660 I mean, we don't have enough prisons.

00:15:27.840 And I just can't get over the fact that like Scotland, you know, you've got to be kidding

00:15:33.340 me.

00:15:33.600 This isn't some like weak kneed, lily footed country where like we're used to them being

00:15:39.560 whiners and complaining about it.

00:15:40.940 This is like there.

00:15:42.120 This is the country where like the toughest Klansmen and all the like, I don't know what's

00:15:47.220 happened.

00:15:47.540 But if we don't fight, we're going to we're going the same way here.

00:15:52.060 I have to ask you for a 6-3 U.S. Supreme Court right now.

00:15:55.820 I have to ask you a question.

00:15:57.360 Just what countries does Megyn Kelly consider to be like the weak kneed, whining countries? 1.00

00:16:03.640 I'm just curious.

00:16:05.100 Like, you know, Sweden.

00:16:07.780 Switzerland.

00:16:08.360 I knew it.

00:16:08.800 I knew you were going to go.

00:16:12.540 Up to the R-Rod.

00:16:14.380 No, no, no.

00:16:15.140 Canada.

00:16:15.880 But you know, those those are also voted the happiest countries are Norway, Finland,

00:16:20.640 Sweden.

00:16:21.300 That's where supposedly people are the happiest.

00:16:23.000 If you look at all these crazy polls.

00:16:25.360 Well, I'm glad to hear that because we're actually going to go visit those countries.

00:16:28.980 And now I've completely ruined my ability to charm the people.

00:16:31.820 But I'm just saying they're not exactly known for their toughness.

00:16:36.880 You know who is like America? 0.96

00:16:39.100 We are.

00:16:39.780 We're supposed to be tough.

00:16:41.040 We're supposed to be able to take hurt feelings.

00:16:42.740 And that's what we need to remember as we see these issues come up domestically.

00:16:47.340 It's just look, I'm very grateful for what happened in 303 Creative.

00:16:51.220 There was great language in that case.

00:16:54.180 We actually had the woman who who was behind that case who was involving like gay messaging 0.79

00:16:58.980 and whether you can be forced to support, you know, lesbian marriages and so on.

00:17:04.040 And in any event, the Supreme Court sided with the creator and created some good language

00:17:08.700 in there for people who fight this battle.

00:17:10.400 But this specific battle hasn't yet gone up as high as the high court.

00:17:13.640 And I think the trans activists are trying to avoid that, given the makeup of the high 1.00

00:17:17.400 court.

00:17:17.700 Well, guess what?

00:17:18.580 You know, it's going to be at least five, four.

00:17:21.560 It's six, three now conservatives to liberals for a long time, God willing.

00:17:25.240 And so when I believe when this gets resolved, it will get resolved the right way, notwithstanding

00:17:30.000 the fact that Gorsuch has not been totally solid on these issues.

00:17:32.860 OK, let's move on.

00:17:34.600 Trump.

00:17:35.940 Trump's been gagged in the Judge Merchant case.

00:17:40.140 This is the Stormy Daniels hush money pay case against him.

00:17:42.980 It's going to start on April 15th, a criminal trial.

00:17:45.200 And he's got Judge Merchant, who he calls very distinguished looking, but also all sorts

00:17:51.840 of bad names.

00:17:52.500 Trump doesn't like him, says he's suffering from severe Trump derangement syndrome.

00:17:57.160 And in this case, we're going to have witnesses like Stormy Daniels saying, I got paid off to

00:18:01.100 keep quiet about our affair right before the 16 election.

00:18:04.500 Michael Cohen saying, I was Trump's lawyer at the time and I'm the one who did the payment

00:18:07.920 and Trump knew all about it.

00:18:09.460 This is, you know, the presumptive testimony.

00:18:11.300 And Trump's been railing, as he does about anybody who he feels is coming after him,

00:18:15.600 about the judge, about the prosecutor, about the assistant prosecutor, about Michael Cohen,

00:18:20.860 about Stormy Daniels, about everybody.

00:18:22.800 And everybody includes the latest, the judge's daughter, who I have to say, by Trump's standards,

00:18:30.840 it hasn't been that bad.

00:18:33.000 What he said about the Trump's daughter, like Trump can definitely go nuclear on you.

00:18:38.560 Trust me.

00:18:39.580 He hasn't yet on her, but he's gone after her a bit.

00:18:45.320 And now, hold on, I'm trying to find exactly what he said.

00:18:50.300 Okay, let's see.

00:18:51.760 I believe it was Alvin, it was at Alvin Bragg's request that the family members be added in.

00:18:58.040 Yes, yes, but I'll get to that.

00:18:59.660 I'll get to that.

00:19:00.040 I just want to set it up, what he said.

00:19:01.160 Her name is Lauren Merchant.

00:19:05.200 And Trump said, quote, so let me get this straight.

00:19:08.180 The judge's daughter is allowed to post pictures of her, quote, dream of putting me in jail. 1.00

00:19:13.820 The Manhattan DA is able to say whatever lies about me he wants.

00:19:17.780 The judge can violate our laws and constitution at every turn.

00:19:21.140 But I'm not allowed to talk about the attacks against me and the lunatics trying to destroy my life?

00:19:25.600 Maybe the judge is such a hater because his daughter makes money by working to get Trump. 0.99

00:19:31.500 And when he rules against me over and over again, he is making her company and her richer and richer.

00:19:37.740 How can this be allowed?

00:19:39.500 Well, then you're right.

00:19:40.860 Alvin Bragg, the DA, went in and said, judge, you need to expand your gag order. 0.99

00:19:45.240 And the judge just did yesterday saying, you're right.

00:19:48.600 I'm going to expand my gag order to bar Trump from attacking the court's family members, the judge's family members, along with those of Alvin Bragg, the DA, though he can still criticize Alvin Bragg.

00:20:01.700 Trump's not correct that that he's not allowed to criticize Alvin Bragg or the judge himself.

00:20:05.680 He can still go after them.

00:20:07.400 And I'll just give you a little color on what the judge said.

00:20:10.160 He said Trump has a pattern of attacking family members, of presiding jurists and attorneys assigned to his cases, and that pattern serves no legitimate purpose.

00:20:20.860 It merely injects fear in those assigned or called to participate in the proceedings that not only they, but their family members as well are fair game for defendants' vitriol.

00:20:31.520 It is no longer just a mere possibility or a reasonable likelihood that there exists a threat to the integrity of the judicial proceedings.

00:20:38.140 That threat is very real.

00:20:41.300 The average observer must now, after hearing defendants' recent attacks, draw the conclusion that if they become involved in these proceedings, even tangentially, they should worry not only for themselves, but for their loved ones as well.

00:20:54.320 Such concerns will undoubtedly interfere with the fair administration of justice and constitute a direct attack on the rule of law itself.

00:21:02.380 So there's more, which I'll get to in a minute.

00:21:04.360 But what do you make of Judge Merchant saying, that's it, you're done, you can't attack my daughter, and Trump saying, she's fair game, she's a political operative?

00:21:15.660 I say, take it up.

00:21:17.880 In other words, take it up to the appellate court if you think the judge went too far.

00:21:22.960 I'm a huge free speech advocate.

00:21:25.280 I think you don't touch it unless it absolutely clearly steps over the line.

00:21:30.680 He has wide latitude under the First Amendment to spew outrageous and offensive stuff.

00:21:37.020 That said, there are limits.

00:21:39.340 And I know personally, I wouldn't feel bad if somebody came after me, but you come after my family, I can understand why the judge would want to do this.

00:21:49.480 If it runs afoul of the law, then the appellate court would say, hey, judge, you stepped over the line.

00:21:55.740 Your daughter is fair game.

00:21:57.340 And candidly, I didn't know anything about the judge's daughter until Trump said something.

00:22:01.500 And then I learned about it in preparation for the show.

00:22:04.020 So thank you for that.

00:22:05.760 You know, there is a legitimate purpose.

00:22:07.280 It at least lets me discern what credibility I want to give to his statements and decide whether the judge has some type of interest in the outcome.

00:22:19.660 I'm not saying that he does or he doesn't.

00:22:21.480 I just want to know all available information.

00:22:23.960 So I say take it up.

00:22:25.340 Let's see what the appellate court says.

00:22:26.640 You know, Arthur, the way I see it is this is not like, you know, your little guys are my little guys, right?

00:22:35.340 Like my kids are 14, 12 and 10.

00:22:37.260 That's not the same.

00:22:38.520 He shouldn't be allowed to go after a judge's minor children.

00:22:40.980 But this woman is an adult and a professional political operative who makes her living getting people like Adam Schiff reelected, who is fundraising off of the Trump trials.

00:22:56.640 So, you know, Trump's point is the more money Adam Schiff raises off of my trial, the more money the judge's daughter makes, who's already been paid reportedly $10 million by Schiff in his reelection quest.

00:23:14.460 And so why on earth am I barred from calling her out as a partisan hack and saying the judge has an interest in promoting his daughter and everybody on the merchant side will do much better if Trump is a criminal than if Trump isn't a criminal?

00:23:31.180 Why can't he talk about that?

00:23:32.480 Well, let me just address one thing, because what you're talking about, the financial aspect of this and his daughter's financial gain.

00:23:40.180 If she lived in the judge's household, he would unequivocally have to recuse himself, the judge.

00:23:47.220 The ethical rules state that if it's a spouse or a child who lives in the judge's household has a financial interest in the outcome of the matter, then the judge has to recuse him or herself.

00:24:00.120 Now, she doesn't live in his house, she doesn't even live in his state, but boy, I will tell you, and I know it's hard to do from an egotistical point of view, but if I was that judge, I would recuse myself.

00:24:11.980 I'd say, listen, my daughter is working for the other team, this is the biggest case in the United States of America, and my ethics and my integrity are such that I don't want any interference, that my personal life and my personal views, because I want to protect my daughter, is going to affect my judgment in this case.

00:24:29.540 But, you know, he has a little out because she doesn't live with him, but you're right, Megan, she does have a financial interest in the outcome of this.

00:24:38.640 In terms of the gag order, you know, for me, I have PTSD with this whole case.

00:24:43.140 It's in the same courthouse, in the same courtroom that I tried the Harvey Weinstein case with the same DA's office, and we were told to shut up.

00:24:52.000 I mean, I went on IMIS just to talk about, like, what was going on in jury selection, like, just vanilla how jury selection works in the county of Manhattan.

00:25:03.160 And I got, oh, I got so yelled at by the judge, and you're not supposed to talk about this case.

00:25:07.140 I said, judge, it could have been this case or any other case.

00:25:09.280 I was just talking about the logistics.

00:25:10.620 You better not say another word.

00:25:11.880 And then what would happen every day after the Harvey Weinstein case, it was either Gloria Allred or Doug Wigdor having their own press conference beating the hell out of us.

00:25:22.260 And unlike Donald Trump, who will probably have surrogates protecting his role in all of this, there wasn't too many people standing up for Harvey Weinstein giving his side of the story.

00:25:31.840 So I think gag orders should be put in very limited circumstances, but I think the overall message has to do with witness tampering.

00:25:41.960 The judge does not want to have someone as powerful as the former president of the United States or maybe the next president of the United States, his words, his Twitter account, so powerful that it thwarts other people who might want to come forward and be witnesses and participate in any trial from doing so.

00:25:58.840 You know, a word on the recusal, Mark, because there was a request that he recused himself and the judge apparently went to Team Trump asked him to recuse himself and he apparently went up the line.

00:26:14.960 I don't know who he asked, probably the state bar, whether he needed to.

00:26:17.660 And they said, you're good, which doesn't surprise me.

00:26:20.220 But Arthur's right, the standard under Section 100.3 of the statute governing when a judge shall recuse says he's disqualified, yes, if there's a minor child and so on who's affected.

00:26:35.660 And then it says, if the judge knows that he or a person known by him to be within the sixth degree of relationship to him, which would include a daughter, has an interest that could be substantially affected by the proceeding.

00:26:54.640 I can see the argument that her interest is somewhat attenuated.

00:26:57.980 She's not she's not Adam Schiff, right, running on whether Trump is a criminal.

00:27:05.780 If Adam Schiff were the kid, the judge would definitely have to recuse.

00:27:10.460 She's helping Adam Schiff and Democrats in the Senate run for reelection.

00:27:16.640 So it's more attenuated.

00:27:18.680 But I think if there's a doubt, you recuse yourself as a judge.

00:27:22.100 And the fact that he didn't is what's put his daughter in this situation where Trump has a right to criticize her and to criticize the judge for the for this relationship, saying this is a family of Democrat operatives.

00:27:36.840 His politics are likely to be those of his daughter's and on his daughter's allegedly now defunct Twitter account, X account, there was up until a couple of days ago, you know, the picture you put of yourself there as your little like face, a picture of Trump behind bars.

00:27:54.960 Now, there's a whole story behind that here.

00:27:57.960 This is her Twitter handle.

00:28:00.820 And this is what Trump reacted to.

00:28:04.340 Understandably, this is the daughter of the judge.

00:28:07.180 But only when Trump called it out did Lauren Merchant's representative say that wasn't her.

00:28:15.840 She did have that account.

00:28:17.260 Then she deleted her account and all the tweets associated with it.

00:28:22.340 Then someone in April of 23, just as this case was brought, resurrected that account, got that exact account moniker.

00:28:32.480 And they're the ones who posted that picture of Trump, which I have no reason to dispute.

00:28:38.680 But you can understand why Trump reacted to it the way he did.

00:28:42.060 It did, in fact, used to belong to the judge's daughter.

00:28:44.880 In any event, this is all very thick and sticky.

00:28:49.360 And I think the judge has done the wrong thing here.

00:28:52.260 What do you think?

00:28:53.360 And if he did do the wrong thing and Trump is convicted, then the first issue on appeal is going to be this judge shouldn't have been the judge.

00:29:01.860 He should have recused himself.

00:29:03.480 I know this judge is aware of that.

00:29:05.120 And the judge at least feels like he's on solid footing, at least if the appellate court ever looks at this, to say he didn't have to.

00:29:12.680 And I looked at the same statute that both you and Arthur talked about.

00:29:15.860 I don't think that the daughter meets the definition that would require him to remove himself.

00:29:21.900 So now we're traveling under, does it give the image of impropriety?

00:29:26.000 And I think there you can make a strong argument, you know, that that while he doesn't have to recuse himself, you know, it does give the image of impropriety when your dear daughter, you know, hates the very defendant that's in front of you.

00:29:39.700 That said, yes, it'll be an appellate issue.

00:29:42.800 No, the judge, in my opinion, doesn't have to recuse himself.

00:29:47.080 But it'll be an issue on appeal.

00:29:48.840 We'll see.

00:29:49.280 So here's, by the way, here's Lauren Merchant in, is it, is it Merchant, Arthur, as somebody who's been in front?

00:29:56.700 Is it Merchant?

00:29:57.160 They say Merchant.

00:29:58.480 They say Merchant like it's a French name, yeah.

00:30:01.540 Oh, and the daughter's Lauren, Lauren Merchant.

00:30:04.620 Okay, so this is Lauren Merchant back in 2019 talking about Trump, her father, this judge, and social media.

00:30:13.980 Take a listen.

00:30:14.360 So I've actually had a couple conversations with my dad recently where he's kind of like, I hate that politicians use Twitter and like it's so unprofessional and, you know, that's not how a politician should behave themselves.

00:30:28.140 And I explained that like, yeah, I think there are a lot of instances where it is not used and like when our president tweets anything that he thinks and like that's not what he should be using it for.

00:30:40.780 So that just shows she's commented on Trump in the past and on her conversations with her father, this judge, about Trump in the past and Trump's social media use.

00:30:55.700 But they're talking about his Twitter use is directly at issue in this trial.

00:31:00.720 It's one of the reasons why they just got a three-week delay because this case was supposed to start in March, but they got a bunch of documents from the feds that related to this case and potentially related to Trump's Twitter use.

00:31:15.120 This is one of the issues why he's, this is one of the reasons, let me correct myself, this is one of the reasons why Trump is arguing that he has immunity because some of the things at issue are tweets he sent out while president.

00:31:24.460 So in any event, the judge's thoughts on his immunity, the judge's thoughts on his Twitter use, all of this, the judge is too close.

00:31:31.260 Like there's just, I'm sorry that your daughter became a political operative and ruined your chances of trying this case, but I think this judge should be gone.

00:31:38.140 And I think this is actually a legit issue.

00:31:40.840 Even though I have empathy, truly, I do have empathy for the daughter who, it's okay to be in Democrat politics.

00:31:46.120 It's okay to be in Republican politics while your father is a judge.

00:31:51.020 It doesn't really, shouldn't really make her a direct Trump target, but that's the world we live in.

00:31:56.660 We've crossed the Rubicon in indicting, you know, former presidents and would-be presidents.

00:32:00.480 And so here we are.

00:32:01.880 Now I want to talk about Michael Cohen.

00:32:05.180 This is crazy.

00:32:06.540 So he's a witness in the case.

00:32:08.620 So Stormy Daniels and Trump can't criticize them.

00:32:13.240 This is crazy talk, you guys.

00:32:15.040 I don't, like, Michael Cohen can't get enough of criticizing Donald Trump.

00:32:21.400 Here he was just the other night talking about what a victim he is because of Trump's many threats on Joy Reid.

00:32:29.280 This is this past Thursday, SOT 3.

00:32:31.220 This is not a joke.

00:32:33.720 He knows what he's doing.

00:32:35.260 And I think it's incumbent upon the Manhattan DA, along with whatever Judge Mershon is capable of doing, to do something to protect not just staff, not just his own child, but all of the witnesses that are being asked to testify.

00:32:54.540 How can it be that he can go out and say what he wants, but Trump cannot?

00:32:59.300 Well, I think, Megan, I think it goes back to what I was saying about, you know, tampering with a witness.

00:33:07.140 This isn't, you know, Arthur Idala is sending out these tweets or going on the airwaves.

00:33:11.580 This is the guy who was the former president of the United States and could be the next president of the United States.

00:33:16.260 And it's an intimidation.

00:33:17.860 It's, well, it's, you're intimidating.

00:33:19.500 Because he's powerful?

00:33:20.580 It's the same as someone going into the coffee shop, sitting next to the witness, and he looks like a tough guy.

00:33:27.160 And he goes, you know, it would be the worst idea if you weren't around next Monday.

00:33:30.960 You know, we'll see what happens.

00:33:31.980 You know, everyone knows where your family lives.

00:33:34.360 But, you know, you can make your own judgment and walk away.

00:33:37.000 So he has fewer free speech rights than the average Joe because he has a large platform?

00:33:41.980 You know that there are limitations to free speech rights?

00:33:45.680 I don't know.

00:33:46.020 We just talked about it.

00:33:46.940 Michael Cohen has access to all day MSNBC, all day CNN, all day.

00:33:54.820 He's got a big voice and uses it.

00:33:57.720 And that's fine.

00:33:58.540 That's fine with me.

00:33:59.800 But how can he not, how can he be protected from return fire?

00:34:03.580 Because what the judge is saying is, Mr. Trump, if you and your team want to go after Mr. Cohen's credibility, you're going to do so in my courtroom in front of 12 jurors under the rules of evidence.

00:34:15.480 You're not going to just start spewing things out and taking the whole jury pool here in New York City before the trial starts.

00:34:21.660 Why is it then?

00:34:22.280 Why isn't he banned from going on MSNBC?

00:34:25.460 I mean, Mark, Arthur's right.

00:34:27.340 He's not a criminal defendant.

00:34:28.640 He's a witness.

00:34:29.440 But he's not.

00:34:30.080 Arthur's right.

00:34:30.420 He's nonstop talking.

00:34:31.800 He's prejudicing the defendant's right to a fair trial every day.

00:34:35.020 He has those rights.

00:34:36.080 He has those rights.

00:34:36.820 He hasn't lost them in being indicted in this case.

00:34:39.620 It's so many.

00:34:40.260 It's like it reminds me of these cases where my clients are ordered to stay away from the alleged victim in a case.

00:34:46.580 And then my client's like, I want that person to stay away from me.

00:34:50.360 Why doesn't judge order that person to stay away?

00:34:52.460 Because you're the defendant.

00:34:54.180 You're the one that's appearing in front of the court.

00:34:56.700 You're the one that needs the control, according to the judge.

00:34:59.720 And it is different.

00:35:00.920 You don't want there to be.

00:35:02.920 And I'm not saying that there is.

00:35:04.380 But this judge is saying that the legal distinction is that whatever Trump is putting out there could have an adverse effect on justice and could intimidate witnesses.

00:35:14.540 To Arthur's point.

00:35:16.100 This is so unfair.

00:35:17.580 I mean, you're right.

00:35:18.400 That's what the judge said.

00:35:19.460 He wrote as follows.

00:35:20.580 Courts are understandably concerned about the First Amendment rights of the defendant, especially when the accused is a public figure.

00:35:27.420 The circumstances of the instant matter, however, are different.

00:35:30.580 The conventional David versus Goliath roles are no longer in play, as demonstrated by the singular power defendants' words have on countless others.

00:35:41.120 I mean, that bothers me because he's basically saying Trump is so well known with such a powerful online following that he, he in particular, should be gagged because he's not David versus Goliath, the system.

00:35:56.760 And that's just not true because the system is still Goliath, even if the person they're going after is the former president.

00:36:04.600 The system goes in there.

00:36:06.720 Alvin Bragg goes before this jury with the being able to say, I represent the people of New York.

00:36:13.340 And I'm telling you, this guy's a criminal.

00:36:16.220 The deck is still stacked in favor of the prosecution, not the defendant.

00:36:20.860 And if his his attempt at fighting this battle, which is all over the media, is basically jury nullification, saying everybody's corrupt.

00:36:29.400 This is all a political, you know, partisan hack job job on me.

00:36:32.960 It is prejudicial to take his rights away from him in that way.

00:36:37.700 Megan, are you actually saying?

00:36:38.820 He doesn't have a right to jury nullification.

00:36:39.420 Hold on.

00:36:39.780 Hold on.

00:36:40.100 When Megan, are you actually saying that it's not relevant for the judge to consider the reach that the person sending out the message has, that somehow Donald Trump has the same impact on potential witnesses and potential jurors as the average Joe who has 16 followers?

00:37:00.500 I am saying that.

00:37:01.780 Yeah, I am.

00:37:02.600 I am saying that.

00:37:03.800 I don't.

00:37:04.240 Yeah, I am.

00:37:04.680 I don't think Donald Trump's rights.

00:37:07.800 Look, can I just feel the need to say this?

00:37:09.180 I was on the receiving end of this guy's threats for a year.

00:37:12.820 OK, and I understand acutely how disruptive it can be to one's life and one's children and one's safety.

00:37:19.540 I genuinely get it.

00:37:21.340 So I do feel for those who are on the receiving end of it.

00:37:24.640 I really do.

00:37:25.240 Whether it's the judge's daughter, Michael Cohen, Stormy Daniels.

00:37:29.000 I want my audience to remember that, too.

00:37:31.640 I want you to remember that just because you may love Trump doesn't mean it's appropriate for him to be threatening anybody.

00:37:36.280 But these are not threats that what I see here are criticisms and attempts to diminish the credibility of the people who are going to come for him, like Cohen, like Stormy Daniels.

00:37:47.380 And that is fair game.

00:37:49.640 And if they are going to take the stand and come for him in a criminal setting, they have to expect that he is going to have thoughts on those accusations and their behavior.

00:38:00.500 And Michael Cohen, not only he's all over MSNBC, but Stormy Daniels just had a whole documentary made about her and her relationship with Trump.

00:38:11.220 It's being aired right now.

00:38:12.760 She was on The View two weeks ago.

00:38:15.000 That's fine.

00:38:16.300 But he's got to sit there and just say, she's an angel.

00:38:19.700 She's a sweet little lady. 1.00

00:38:21.400 She's like she's like Mother Teresa.

00:38:23.580 I've got no thoughts on her.

00:38:24.860 No, his very fine lawyers, Susan Necklace and Todd Blanch, they'll be able to destroy him on the witness stand.

00:38:33.400 Didn't you just get in trouble in federal court for submitting cases that were artificial intelligence that didn't exist?

00:38:39.620 Aren't you a convicted felon?

00:38:41.140 Didn't you plead to lying and this and that in front of a jury under the rules of evidence, under the control of a judge?

00:38:48.280 And yes, Donald Trump, as a criminal defendant, whether you like it or not, he loses certain rights and privileges that those of us are entitled to.

00:38:57.040 Let me ask you this.

00:38:59.060 What about Dershowitz is always railing about, your client and your friend, he's always railing about on the right to free speech.

00:39:05.940 It's not only Trump's right to speak.

00:39:07.700 It's our right to hear him speak.

00:39:09.820 You know, he is going to be the Republican nominee.

00:39:12.780 Right now, he's polling in a way that suggests he's going to be the next president of the United States.

00:39:16.580 We have a right to hear what he has to say about these public attacks being launched against him.

00:39:22.700 And therefore, this ruling is stifling our rights, too, in a way that's unconstitutional.

00:39:30.620 There's some truth to that.

00:39:32.120 I do want to hear some of the messages.

00:39:34.660 But let me ask you, let me turn it around.

00:39:36.400 Are you saying, Megan, that you think that every single message that he sent out in this context is appropriate?

00:39:43.260 Well, I think it can rise to the level of a threat.

00:39:47.940 And that's where his power comes in.

00:39:50.240 You know, if I were the judge, I would not allow threats.

00:39:53.300 I would allow him to attack the daughter.

00:39:54.940 I would.

00:39:55.580 I would say, if you want to attack my daughter, it's unfortunate.

00:39:58.440 I hope you don't do that.

00:39:59.140 But OK.

00:40:00.220 But if you start threatening her or any other witness in this case, we're going to have a problem.

00:40:05.240 And but I'd also say this, if my daughter attacks you first or if a witness attacks you first publicly, then go for it. 0.54

00:40:15.860 Like, I would not allow them to be out there publicly attacking Trump every night on the airwaves and in movies and so on.

00:40:23.380 And then say he has no right to because you're ignoring his other lane, which is the future president of the United States and all like that.

00:40:29.940 That's not the judge's role.

00:40:31.480 The judge is allowed to ignore his other lane.

00:40:33.800 The judge is looking at him with blinders on him.

00:40:35.440 Why does the judge get to take into account his power when deciding whether he needs to be silenced, but not in deciding whether he has the right to speak and we have the right to hear him?

00:40:44.840 Because it's about intimidating a witness.

00:40:47.280 I'll give you the scenario I just gave you.

00:40:49.260 If there's a witness in the coffee shop who's about to testify and some big bruiser comes and says you probably shouldn't go to court on Monday, that's one thing.

00:40:56.260 If some little meek, like 17-year-old kid says it, it's not really a big threat.

00:41:00.500 You say whatever you say, kid.

00:41:01.820 So the judge is allowed to take into consideration, am I allowing a criminal defendant to prevent a witness from testifying in a case against him?

00:41:10.080 I cannot allow that to happen.

00:41:12.460 This is utterly unfair.

00:41:13.880 It ignores the reality that you're indicting the former president who's the Republican nominee. 0.97

00:41:20.580 It completely ignores that there is this other lane in which it's extremely important for Trump to be able to fucking fight these charges. 0.97

00:41:28.040 Sorry. 0.96

00:41:28.900 It's not my love for Trump.

00:41:31.040 It's my love for the system and for his rights and for free speech in America and what's being done to him is outrageous.

00:41:38.320 And this is the problem.

00:41:39.200 So the judge wants to hide behind the shield of, oh, I'm just protecting the innocent.

00:41:43.460 Don't wait, Megan.

00:41:44.200 How can I do this?

00:41:44.940 They're out there in a constant smear campaign with the help of all the media.

00:41:49.820 This is what ticks me off.

00:41:51.280 About America and the injustices.

00:41:53.840 Look, the people we like, like Trump, he's getting a bad deal.

00:41:57.340 How come no one said Harvey Weinstein got a bad deal when they slapped a gab order on him?

00:42:01.600 And he wasn't even the one talking.

00:42:03.100 It was me.

00:42:03.640 I wasn't allowed to say these witnesses are full of it.

00:42:06.700 These witnesses are money hungry.

00:42:08.360 They have Gloria Allred trying to get, oh, Harvey Weinstein got a gab order.

00:42:12.180 Megyn Kelly doesn't care. 1.00

00:42:13.240 Nobody else cares.

00:42:14.360 But because it's someone we like, it's Donald Trump.

00:42:17.120 Now we're pissed off.

00:42:18.740 We should be pissed off when everyone-

00:42:20.260 I would like to say-

00:42:21.260 When Galeen Maxwell happens-

00:42:22.840 Assumes facts, not evidence.

00:42:23.420 When it happens to Harvey, we should be pissed off on everyone, not just Donald Trump.

00:42:27.920 Mark assumes facts.

00:42:29.180 I may or may not like Trump.

00:42:31.360 I don't really love Trump, to tell you the truth.

00:42:33.360 He's fine.

00:42:34.840 But I prefer his politics to those of Joe Biden, for sure.

00:42:38.960 And my goal as a media person is not to like him or love him or hate him or whatever.

00:42:42.180 It's just to try to cover him fairly, which I do.

00:42:45.600 So it's not about loving Trump.

00:42:47.760 It's about watching what's being done to him and an understanding that there is a reality here

00:42:53.320 of which the judge is very aware.

00:42:55.880 And he can't, you know, both take into account his power to, like, upend his daughter's life

00:43:04.500 with a mean tweet and then not take into account the reason he has that power.

00:43:09.480 It's because he's the likely Republican nominee for president, which is why he must respond

00:43:14.740 to these public attacks publicly.

00:43:16.940 It's not about intimidating witnesses.

00:43:18.940 It's about keeping the playing field for the nation and the contest that he's in fair.

00:43:23.560 All right, we got to take a quick break.

00:43:27.260 We got, like, a couple minutes until we got a heartbreak.

00:43:29.300 So I'm going to squeeze it in and come back.

00:43:30.940 Very interesting discussion today, guys.

00:43:32.680 Don't go away.

00:43:36.940 Team Trump in the Fannie Willis prosecution down in Atlanta, Georgia, has now officially

00:43:42.440 appealed the ruling by the judge McAfee not to recuse Fannie Willis, not to disqualify

00:43:49.860 Fannie Willis.

00:43:50.580 They only need one judge from a three-judge panel to agree to take the case.

00:43:58.640 So that's pretty good just to get the one saying yes.

00:44:02.020 But, you know, the odds of, like, the court wanting to get involved in this, Mark, you're

00:44:08.400 shaking your head.

00:44:09.500 No, you don't think they're going to want it.

00:44:11.800 No, they're not.

00:44:12.700 It's that simple.

00:44:14.120 It's a legal opinion.

00:44:15.360 I don't believe that they're going to find that this judge, assuming they take the case,

00:44:20.900 that this judge committed error.

00:44:23.160 And I think it's going to go nowhere.

00:44:25.000 You know, they're harping, not harping, that sounds judgmental, but they're playing up

00:44:31.800 the comments, Arthur, which is kind of interesting, that she made in the church speech, you know,

00:44:37.720 about why did they only come after the one special prosecutor who was black, right?

00:44:42.700 Like that whole bit.

00:44:43.660 And they're arguing that that church speech alone is disqualifying.

00:44:49.640 And then they're also going after the fact that she knowingly filed a false sworn affidavit

00:44:54.940 from former special prosecutor Nathan Wade as part of her motions, and that she's utterly

00:45:00.120 unrepentant for her misconduct and that of Nathan Wade, that she's expressed no remorse.

00:45:05.240 In fact, she was just on camera.

00:45:06.280 We played it last week saying, I have nothing to apologize for.

00:45:08.780 I didn't do anything illegal except submit that perjured testimony.

00:45:12.200 And they're basically saying it's an outrage.

00:45:15.420 So what does the Court of Appeals do with that?

00:45:18.080 Well, for open disclosure, Megan, we're a litigant on the case.

00:45:21.620 My firm represents Rudy Giuliani.

00:45:23.720 So we, you know, we've been in constant contact with Mr. Sadow, who is President Trump's attorney.

00:45:30.340 And those papers, although we didn't sign out to the actual appeal, it's we, we would be

00:45:35.540 beneficiaries from it as well.

00:45:37.840 Well, you know, first and foremost, if she didn't do anything wrong, what's interesting

00:45:42.480 is she didn't appeal. 1.00

00:45:44.260 She had the opportunity to appeal.

00:45:46.300 She had the opportunity to be like, no, no, no, I didn't do anything wrong.

00:45:48.960 He's my lead prosecutor.

00:45:50.160 I handpicked him.

00:45:51.140 I want him on the case.

00:45:52.220 How dare you take him off the case?

00:45:54.220 She did not do that. 0.92

00:45:55.100 She took him off the case in a millisecond, number one.

00:45:57.400 Number two, if you read the judge's actual decision, this 34-year-old judge, a man who's not old

00:46:05.060 enough to be President of the United States, but could be a decisive part of deciding who

00:46:09.980 could be President of the United States.

00:46:13.580 I mean, he comes right up to the borderline of saying, basically, you're disqualified unless,

00:46:19.020 if anyone is you're off the case, unless you make this concession.

00:46:22.860 And he does find her to be not credible.

00:46:25.400 So, I don't know, Mark.

00:46:27.880 I mean, I don't know-

00:46:28.660 Odor of mendacity still lingers in the courtroom, he said.

00:46:32.120 Keep going.

00:46:32.820 Yes.

00:46:33.380 So, I don't know who the three-judge panel is.

00:46:35.220 If you get one judge that says, I think we need to look at this.

00:46:38.140 I mean, she behaved very non-prosecuitorial on the stand.

00:46:42.460 I mean, the judge who she was his supervisor back in the day, he reprimanded her several

00:46:47.000 times about her demeanor on the stand, saying, if you don't-

00:46:49.780 And in his order, in his order, he said it was unprofessional.

00:46:53.160 Right.

00:46:53.360 And he said, I'm going to strike your testimony.

00:46:55.780 So, I don't know.

00:46:56.900 I think there's a chance that one of those judges may say, we're going to definitely

00:47:00.720 take a look at this.

00:47:01.500 This is a pretty important case.

00:47:03.420 Mark, let me ask you about that, because we just did just a quick search tells us that

00:47:07.800 most of the judges in the Court of Appeal of Georgia are Republican-appointed, as you

00:47:13.760 might expect.

00:47:14.300 Georgia, though it's turning more blue, has been traditionally more red.

00:47:16.700 So, most of these are going to be more Republican, conservative-leaning judges, may or may not

00:47:21.320 like Trump, but maybe Arthur's right.

00:47:24.160 Because if you read Judge McAfee's order denying the disqualification of Fannie, it reads to me

00:47:29.520 like an SOS to the Court of Appeals.

00:47:32.340 Help me.

00:47:33.300 I'm running for re-election.

00:47:34.480 I can't do it.

00:47:35.920 But you could.

00:47:37.720 I think they're going to find that there was definitely some problems with her behavior,

00:47:42.040 just like the judge did.

00:47:43.560 That's not the standard, though.

00:47:45.120 She doesn't have to be the ideal prosecutor.

00:47:46.900 It just has to be one who legally should have recused herself. 1.00

00:47:50.480 And I think that that's a whole different standard that they're not going to be able to meet.

00:47:54.440 She's supposed to be acting without fear or favor.

00:47:57.400 And I don't know if you look at her testimony, if you could really honestly say that the woman

00:48:03.840 who's prosecuting the former president of the United States and the former mayor of

00:48:07.520 New York is acting without fear or favor.

00:48:10.780 No, I mean, she's out there once again.

00:48:12.780 Do we have time for SOT 9?

00:48:13.920 Can we run it as we go to break?

00:48:15.220 Once again, bringing up the race thing.

00:48:17.280 She plays this card every time she can.

00:48:19.500 We'll play this soundbite.

00:48:20.460 We'll go to break.

00:48:21.060 We'll come right back.

00:48:22.320 Play it.

00:48:23.040 And it's hard out here always having to prove yourself two and three times.

00:48:28.720 Recently, they tell me they don't like me to talk about race.

00:48:31.440 Well, I'm going to talk about it anyway.

00:48:34.040 Truth is, it's some challenges that come to being black.

00:48:37.900 And I see so much greatness in this city that has so many great African-American leaders.

00:48:45.180 And I appreciate all of the sacrifice that you all have had to make to be in these positions.

00:48:55.020 First things first, we have, you mentioned Harvey Weinstein, but something big happened

00:48:59.220 in the Harvey Weinstein case that we have got to spend a moment on.

00:49:02.320 And that is our good friend, Arthur Eidala, Mark, went all the way up to New York's highest

00:49:07.480 court, the Court of Appeals, on Valentine's Day while you and I were wooing our loved ones.

00:49:13.740 And he was trying to woo the judges on New York's highest court into throwing out the

00:49:19.920 conviction of Harvey Weinstein that got him 23 years in jail where he sits right now.

00:49:26.060 He also was sentenced to 16 years in jail out in Los Angeles.

00:49:28.600 So if Arthur wins his case, it doesn't mean that Harvey is free, but it certainly improves

00:49:34.160 his lot in life.

00:49:36.420 And Arthur, your argument boiled down, we'll keep it simple for the audience, but it boiled

00:49:40.740 down to the fact that in New York, in this trial, they allowed other women who were not 0.98

00:49:45.800 the actual accusers in this criminal case to take the stand and say, me too. 1.00

00:49:51.080 He's a jerk. 1.00

00:49:52.040 He's a bad guy. 1.00

00:49:52.860 And me too.

00:49:53.600 And that in addition to that, if Harvey had taken the witness stand in his own defense, 0.99

00:50:00.820 they would have allowed like two dozen women to come forward saying what a scumbag he was 1.00

00:50:07.360 to them. 0.99

00:50:07.920 And he would have been fighting all these extraneous other battles as opposed to the ones at hand,

00:50:15.420 because New York has a law that allows these like prior bad acts in a way that's very favorable

00:50:21.560 to the prosecution.

00:50:23.240 So you were arguing that Molyneux and there's another case, Sandoval, that these are not fair

00:50:31.820 and that they ruined his chances at a fair trial.

00:50:35.320 And amazingly, because you lost that appeal five to zero at the lower appellate court.

00:50:41.040 But then the court of appeals took the case, which was very promising for you that they,

00:50:45.980 you know, they could have just rejected it and said, hey, we'll let the lower ruling stand.

00:50:48.900 So I just want to show the audience a little bit.

00:50:52.260 Here's, you know, some of the descriptions are like, they, they struggled with it.

00:50:57.880 Like if nobody was saying Idala is going to lose that Harvey's going to lose, they were

00:51:01.980 like, the court of appeals seems divided.

00:51:05.060 And I want to show the audience a little bit of one of the judges who seems to be on the

00:51:09.360 side of, of, um, the prosecution trying to get after you and how you handled it.

00:51:16.460 This is fun.

00:51:16.960 This is judge Madeline Singas, uh, Sot 17.

00:51:20.860 The jury has a right to know that when these women are put into that position that he has 0.92

00:51:26.480 done this time and time again, and he knows this isn't a consensual situation because he

00:51:31.580 knows these other women haven't consented to that and have run out. 0.55

00:51:35.700 And amongst all the power plays of his power in Hollywood, his power over their careers,

00:51:41.520 there has to be a different assessment.

00:51:44.280 Do you reject that?

00:51:45.340 I reject the fact that you think with all due respect, your honor, and that that's been

00:51:51.020 the problem with his case in the lower court and at the appellate division, because, because

00:51:55.020 he's an executive and who became the poster boy for a movement.

00:51:59.900 There's a different standard.

00:52:01.360 I didn't say anything about him.

00:52:02.260 I know you didn't, your honor, but the bottom line is that the, it was so obvious that the

00:52:07.960 jury did not need help figuring out his intent.

00:52:11.020 We could talk about, would I have been able to bring in the 30 other relationships where

00:52:16.200 there was quid pro quo, where he did have sexual relations consensually?

00:52:20.600 Would I have been able to do that?

00:52:21.660 Of course not.

00:52:22.260 But they're saying between the decade, between Jessica Mann and Mimi Halle, these other four

00:52:27.460 people he had negative interactions with.

00:52:29.700 What about the 40 that he had positive interactions with?

00:52:34.520 Well done.

00:52:35.560 My boy, Arthur.

00:52:37.120 And the chocolate and the flowers didn't hurt on Valentine's Day.

00:52:40.880 I said, actually, what people remarked on, Megan, was at the end of the day, they put this

00:52:45.240 argument on the end of the day.

00:52:47.000 So it was like, by the time it ended, it was like six o'clock at night.

00:52:49.720 And I was the last to speak.

00:52:50.900 I got rebuttal time.

00:52:52.120 And literally, as I was walking away from the podium, I said, oh, and by the way, happy

00:52:56.380 Valentine's Day, your honors.

00:52:58.140 And my partner, Barry Cabot, just shook his head.

00:53:00.340 He goes, only you would say that.

00:53:02.300 And Judge Siggins, who was clearly the one most against us, he gave me the biggest smile.

00:53:07.180 You know, I know her personally.

00:53:08.100 She was the Nesson County District Attorney.

00:53:10.260 And she was definitely the one who was against us.

00:53:12.660 But I will tell you, they were pretty hard on the prosecutor as well.

00:53:16.020 I wasn't sure which clip you were going to run.

00:53:17.920 Well, we'll stand by.

00:53:19.240 We have some of that.

00:53:20.140 We have some of that.

00:53:21.120 You say what you're going to say, and then I'll show the audience what you're talking

00:53:23.400 about.

00:53:24.260 Oh, no, go ahead.

00:53:24.980 You go ahead, because I want to see maybe.

00:53:26.260 So the prosecutor, this guy is from the Manhattan DA's office.

00:53:29.860 His name is Stephen Wu.

00:53:31.840 Harvard and Yale.

00:53:32.860 And you're going to see a clip here.

00:53:34.440 It's Judge Jenny Rivera, who appears to question whether these other witnesses are needed in

00:53:40.820 this case in order to establish some unique pattern of events.

00:53:45.560 She's like, what's so unique about a guy like this trying to exploit his power?

00:53:50.660 And here's a bit of that in SOT 18. 0.92

00:53:55.020 What's unique about a powerful man trying to get a woman to have sex with him?

00:53:59.100 It doesn't have to be unique.

00:54:00.300 It just has to be distinctive.

00:54:01.720 What the Molyneux witnesses showed was that defendant knew from these past experiences that

00:54:07.100 just because an aspiring actress was willing to accept favors from him, ask favors, and 0.69

00:54:12.020 even voluntarily go up to his room by themselves, right?

00:54:15.620 By themselves to his private space.

00:54:17.360 That did not mean they were consenting to sexual activity.

00:54:20.740 That's what the Molyneux witnesses highlighted.

00:54:21.880 Why isn't it just the opposite?

00:54:23.540 If they're not willing to do it, but someone else is willing to do it, it must mean that

00:54:27.760 it's consensual.

00:54:28.880 Why doesn't it establish the absolute opposite of your argument?

00:54:32.200 Well, I guess what I'd say is this.

00:54:34.640 Sure, there is a response to the Molyneux evidence.

00:54:37.520 There's a way of rebutting it.

00:54:38.960 But Molyneux evidence doesn't have to be dispositive to be admitted.

00:54:42.040 It just has to be probative to a material element.

00:54:45.580 All right, that's kind of hard to follow, Arthur.

00:54:47.500 But what is she saying?

00:54:49.420 What's the judge trying to say there?

00:54:51.580 What the judge is trying to say is just because Harvey Weinstein was rejected by one woman,

00:54:57.820 that does not mean every other woman is going to have the same exact reaction.

00:55:02.000 And that was my point, is that, you know, he married two beautiful women.

00:55:06.400 They gladly, happily married him.

00:55:08.520 He had plenty of consensual girlfriends.

00:55:10.860 They tried to introduce women who rejected him under the premise that, see, these women 0.95

00:55:16.740 who he's not charged with, they rejected him.

00:55:18.760 So it must be true that the women who he's charged with rejected him as well.

00:55:24.260 And that just demeans women. 1.00

00:55:25.880 And that's what I told that to the judges.

00:55:27.380 I mean, what, all women react exactly the same way? 0.97

00:55:29.860 Of course not.

00:55:31.600 But, Megan, it also had to do with the sheer numbers.

00:55:34.360 Molyneux evidence can come in often for identification purposes, et cetera.

00:55:39.040 But they have three charged people, and they'll have one Molyneux witness.

00:55:43.760 Here, there were three charged people.

00:55:45.520 They had four.

00:55:47.140 Four Molyneux.

00:55:48.160 There were more women who testified against him, who never went, who he was never charged

00:55:52.300 with, never went in front of a grand jury, than with the women who he was actually charged

00:55:56.000 with.

00:55:56.220 And the clip I was wondering whether you were going to show was regarding the standable.

00:56:01.800 That means if a defendant-

00:56:03.180 Wait, I have that, too.

00:56:04.240 Stand by.

00:56:05.120 I've got that, too.

00:56:06.580 So this is all along the same lines of, like, how many women are we going to allow to take 1.00

00:56:10.720 the stand?

00:56:11.180 We could be here for years.

00:56:12.600 We're just going through Harvey Weinstein's love life, which was, you know, a threat looming

00:56:16.580 over you, thanks to these two rulings.

00:56:18.700 And the prosecution got pressed pretty hard on, like, are we really effectively depriving

00:56:25.440 these accused guys of their right to take the stand if we allow all this other stuff

00:56:31.820 in?

00:56:32.740 I think this is the SOT you're referring to.

00:56:34.380 It's Judge Betsy Barros to Stephen Wu in SOT-19. 0.70

00:56:38.480 He never disputed that these events occurred, but said that they were consensual and the women

00:56:42.080 were lying by claiming otherwise.

00:56:43.520 You keep talking about as if he testified.

00:56:46.280 He didn't testify, right?

00:56:48.080 So it's one person's word against the other, and now he can't testify.

00:56:53.800 Am I correct?

00:56:54.440 This Sandoval ruling, I don't think anybody in their right mind would testify.

00:57:00.020 So how is this a fair trial?

00:57:02.780 The point is not that the case is weak, but rather that it doesn't fit within that narrow

00:57:06.880 band of cases like Vargas, like McKinney, where the act is so unequivocal, so unequivocal,

00:57:12.100 that there's no need to bring in additional evidence.

00:57:14.980 All right.

00:57:15.480 What was, I understood why the judge's point, I didn't understand Wu's response there.

00:57:20.360 How is he defending against the litany of other charges and other women who he would have

00:57:25.000 liked to have take the stand?

00:57:26.700 Well, they keep using the word that it was so unique.

00:57:29.780 It was so like, because he would like tell them, come up to my room and I'll let you read

00:57:34.360 a script.

00:57:35.060 And then he would try to, allegedly did fool around with them.

00:57:38.620 So he was, oh, this is so unique, so unique.

00:57:41.320 And my answer was, if this whole thing was so unique, why is this whole thing called

00:57:46.080 me too?

00:57:47.360 Because it happened to a lot of people and there were a lot of situations, a lot of

00:57:50.760 men, a lot of women.

00:57:51.900 So they were trying to say the jury needed this evidence because it was so outside of

00:57:56.600 their ability to understand this.

00:57:58.720 They needed all these other women to come in. 1.00

00:58:00.820 But what Judge Barros was saying, and look, just to give you a background, Judge Barros was

00:58:04.420 a district attorney, assistant DA, a chief DA.

00:58:07.600 She was a trial judge.

00:58:10.820 She only did criminal work. 1.00

00:58:12.140 So she knows how outrageous this decision is.

00:58:16.640 Because you want to talk about the Constitution, we want defendants to have the ability to testify.

00:58:22.700 Typically, when someone does not have a criminal record, you don't bring up any of their bad

00:58:26.860 acts.

00:58:27.360 Here, Harvey Weinstein didn't have a criminal record.

00:58:29.240 They asked the judge to bring up like 60 bad acts.

00:58:32.440 And he said, no, I'm only going to let you bring up 32 bad acts.

00:58:35.560 And that's what he said.

00:58:36.540 She said, how could this be a fair trial when it's a he said, she said case?

00:58:40.940 When you took the he said out of the equation and you added more, she said, she said, she

00:58:45.900 said that he wasn't even charged with.

00:58:48.160 So we are waiting, honestly, on pins and needles.

00:58:50.380 I will tell you now that we found out last week, the next decisions from the Court of Appeals

00:58:55.720 will be April 18th, which is a Thursday.

00:58:58.840 And then the one after that is April 23rd, which I believe is a Tuesday.

00:59:03.200 And that's when we're going to find out.

00:59:05.180 And as you said, it's not going to be a picture like there was of Bill Cosby walking out of

00:59:09.340 prison.

00:59:10.040 He still has to face the counts in Los Angeles.

00:59:14.320 But the truth, Megan, is this case wasn't about Harvey Weinstein.

00:59:17.940 And that's how I ended it.

00:59:19.340 This is about every criminal defendant.

00:59:21.260 The case is already being cited all throughout the state of New York, from Buffalo to Brooklyn,

00:59:27.260 saying, oh, no, no, we're allowed to let this in.

00:59:29.240 It's people v. Weinstein.

00:59:30.200 People v. Weinstein.

00:59:30.980 All these other witnesses can testify against these people.

00:59:33.800 It's people v. Weinstein.

00:59:34.960 If he takes the stand or she takes the stand, we can let all this stuff come in.

00:59:38.860 It's people v. Weinstein.

00:59:40.280 And if we get a reversal, it is not going to be that the Court of Appeals is looking to

00:59:44.280 help Harvey Weinstein.

00:59:45.820 But you started off this segment saying how rare it is for the Court of Appeals to accept this

00:59:50.520 case, the judge, the one judge of the seven who accepted it, was the most conservative

00:59:55.820 judge, the most law and order judge, Judge Janet D. 0.92

00:59:59.180 Fiori.

00:59:59.500 She was the chief judge. 0.73

01:00:00.620 She only gave the ability for defendants to testify in 1.8 percent of the cases that

01:00:08.540 she was asked to.

01:00:10.240 And Harvey fell into 1.8 because she knew the decisions against Weinstein were so beyond

01:00:16.040 the pale, so beyond any legal research, has ever found anything similar to this that

01:00:21.160 it needed to be reviewed by the Court of Appeals.

01:00:23.480 I have my fingers crossed.

01:00:24.920 But, Megan, I am afraid maybe there is the intellectual that, you know, we talk about

01:00:32.500 Judge Mershon and his daughter and all of that.

01:00:35.260 You know, the three men on the panel, can they go home and tell their family, yeah, I'm

01:00:39.140 helping Harvey Weinstein out?

01:00:40.640 I mean, I don't know.

01:00:41.660 I hope they can.

01:00:42.780 I pray they can for our whole system of justice.

01:00:44.800 For every defendant in the United States of America, I hope they have the strength to say,

01:00:50.320 yeah, I'm helping a bad guy because under the law, he wasn't treated fairly.

01:00:56.520 There's got to be some comfort for a judge thinking that way to the fact that he's not

01:01:01.680 going to get out of jail.

01:01:02.660 It's not like he goes back out onto the street and continues this pattern that the women spoke

01:01:07.420 of.

01:01:08.700 This is a tough one.

01:01:09.960 Judges, these, look, they're New Yorkers.

01:01:12.020 They're tough.

01:01:12.680 They're not like the folks over in Scotland.

01:01:14.880 They're actually tough.

01:01:16.640 And let's hope they do the right thing.

01:01:20.260 Fascinating.

01:01:20.760 Great job.

01:01:21.440 Very proud of you.

01:01:22.500 That was, you got to be sweating when you're out there.

01:01:24.660 I just want to tell you a mark, because you guys can appreciate it as lawyers.

01:01:27.700 I haven't studied that art since the bar exam.

01:01:31.940 I found out on December the 20th or so that I was, that was the argument date.

01:01:37.120 And Harvey, he had a choice of people to argue with, and he chose me.

01:01:40.240 I gave myself Christmas, and basically from December 27th until the morning of the 14th,

01:01:47.580 I worked so hard.

01:01:48.720 Megan, my boy Luca, my son, he took care of me every weekend.

01:01:52.180 I disappeared with him, and he cooked and cleaned, and I was just reading and reading and reading.

01:01:56.740 It's for a half an hour.

01:01:58.280 I studied for months, but the whole argument was like 35 minutes.

01:02:01.840 But I will tell you, before I walked into that courtroom, Judge Commons, who was with me,

01:02:05.460 and Diana, who was with me, and Marion, who was texting me, they were so nervous.

01:02:08.900 But I really wasn't nervous.

01:02:10.360 And this should be a lesson to young lawyers.

01:02:12.740 If you prepare to that degree, you have the confidence of knowing there's nothing they

01:02:18.500 could throw at you that you're not prepared for.

01:02:20.600 You may get the wrong answer, but you're not going to be like,

01:02:23.060 and there's no substitution.

01:02:26.100 And Mark Eiglash can tell you that before anyone else.

01:02:28.120 There is no substitution when you're a lawyer for preparation.

01:02:31.500 That's right.

01:02:32.100 That's so true.

01:02:33.720 The amount of hours you have to put into preparing an argument like that,

01:02:36.920 because you don't know where they're going to go, right?

01:02:38.400 Mark, it's like, you've been there.

01:02:39.620 You don't know what they're going to ask you about.

01:02:41.620 So it may just be one tiny sliver, but it could be like a vast array.

01:02:45.800 You don't know which sliver, so you've got to know everything, like a boss.

01:02:49.400 And then that's what allows you to be up there.

01:02:51.940 I liked how conversational you were, Arthur.

01:02:54.260 You know, how, like, you were yourself, you know, charming and funny and using real-world

01:02:58.460 examples like what I've been able to bring in.

01:03:00.140 All the women show how many times they consented. 1.00

01:03:02.220 That was good stuff.

01:03:03.340 And I feel like New Yorkers probably responded well to another New Yorker talking in your Brooklyn

01:03:07.380 accent, giving it to them straight.

01:03:09.620 Um, okay, let's move on.

01:03:11.900 Dershowitz was very helpful, by the way.

01:03:13.600 I know he's one of your guests and someone you talk to often.

01:03:16.900 He was very helpful.

01:03:18.380 I'm not surprised.

01:03:19.280 Well, well done.

01:03:20.180 Very proud of you.

01:03:21.020 And, uh, we'll talk once the decision comes out.

01:03:23.120 Okay, let's move on because there is a fascinating case involving abuse, child abuse in this case,

01:03:30.400 which is just, it's just stunning.

01:03:32.640 So this woman, Ruby Frankie, had more YouTube followers than we do, but most people have never

01:03:40.200 heard of her.

01:03:41.300 Um, she was like a mom blogger, a parent.

01:03:45.240 She had like a parenting YouTube site out in Utah.

01:03:48.200 And she was known for her extremely strict parenting. 0.91

01:03:55.180 And it got to the point where people actually started to complain about her.

01:03:59.480 A petition was filed with, I think, thousands of signatures saying she needs to be looked

01:04:04.800 into this woman.

01:04:05.800 Um, I'll just give you an example of how things started before we get to where they went.

01:04:10.900 This is a compilation of some of her parenting clips from her now defunct YouTube channel

01:04:15.860 in Sot 20.

01:04:17.440 I'm going to take the scissors.

01:04:18.920 Look at me. 1.00

01:04:19.620 And I'm going to cut its head off. 0.99

01:04:21.400 God, I love you so much. 0.99

01:04:24.400 My bedroom was taken away for seven months and then you give it back like a couple weeks

01:04:28.480 ago.

01:04:28.900 I don't think our viewers know that.

01:04:30.620 You're sleeping on a beanbag.

01:04:32.420 I'm sleeping on a beanbag.

01:04:33.660 It's not COVID.

01:04:34.200 I just got a text message from a teacher and she said that did not pack a lunch today.

01:04:44.120 She's just going to need to be hungry. 0.74

01:04:47.540 OK, so this went from bad to worse.

01:04:52.300 I mean, that that wasn't great, but it turned out that she was actually abusing her children 1.00

01:04:59.240 and that she only had her two smallest children in the house. 0.97

01:05:03.740 One was, I think, nine and one was 12.

01:05:09.760 If I I'll go back and check those numbers, but I'm pretty sure those are the numbers.

01:05:12.580 And the boy, the son, got out of the house.

01:05:16.600 She was where she was living with a woman said to be her counselor, the counselor for 0.51

01:05:21.440 her and her estranged husband who was not living in the home.

01:05:24.480 And the boy got out of the house, went over to the neighbors, pressed the doorbell and

01:05:30.680 then asked for the man to call 9-1-1.

01:05:34.520 Here's that soundbite from the man's 9-1-1 call, SOT-22.

01:05:38.760 Hi, how was this?

01:05:41.240 Wondering if you could do two favors.

01:05:44.000 Oh, what's going on?

01:05:45.320 I have a seat there.

01:05:47.280 Is this personal business?

01:05:52.620 I have a seat.

01:05:53.360 I just had a 12-year-old boy show up here at my front door asking for help.

01:06:00.380 And he said he just came from a neighbor's house.

01:06:04.220 And we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house.

01:06:07.500 He's emaciated.

01:06:08.740 He's got tape around his legs.

01:06:11.400 He's hungry and he's thirsty.

01:06:13.080 He has duct tape around each ankle.

01:06:15.500 And he has them around his ankles.

01:06:17.140 I mean, his wrists as well.

01:06:18.500 Okay, this boy has been...

01:06:20.360 This kid has obviously been...

01:06:29.380 I think he's been...

01:06:32.100 He's been detained.

01:06:35.220 He's been...

01:06:35.880 He's obviously covered in wounds.

01:06:38.020 Oh, my God.

01:06:40.580 It's awful, Mark.

01:06:41.800 And now this mother, Ruby Frankie, and the woman slash counselor with whom she was living with those children,

01:06:49.180 has been...

01:06:50.420 They've both been sentenced to 30 years in prison for child abuse.

01:06:54.800 So what do you make of it?

01:06:55.780 I'm totally fine with that.

01:06:58.800 I, you know, I'm usually the one who says, really, that much time?

01:07:02.460 In a case like this, just pay attention to the detail, what they did to these kids.

01:07:08.600 They gave the kids a life sentence.

01:07:11.120 I will never forget the body cam footage that I had to watch of when the police finally come into the house

01:07:17.220 and the child that was sitting in a room that had nothing in it, child sitting in the center of the room,

01:07:24.620 and the police were like, okay, we're here now.

01:07:26.300 Now, this child was hungry, deprived, and still wouldn't get up, was sitting erect in the center of the room,

01:07:35.560 doing what she had been trained and tortured to do for quite some time.

01:07:40.740 So as far as I'm concerned, 30 years is a very fair sentence, and these kids, unfortunately, they have a life sentence.

01:07:49.460 That's right.

01:07:50.900 The woman whose house it was, where they were living, is named Jodi Hildebrandt, age 54 at the time of arrest.

01:07:58.800 And she's... 0.98

01:08:01.260 I don't know what's wrong with this person,

01:08:03.620 but according to the estranged husband of Ruby Frankie, she saw ghosts.

01:08:10.740 She talked about, like, you know, weird messages she was getting from beyond.

01:08:15.440 Ruby Frankie claimed that, you know, she'd been kind of brainwashed by this woman.

01:08:19.560 And the husband, who's an engineer, and he was a professor, college professor, I think, of engineering out at Brigham Young,

01:08:26.340 was like, look, I'm a serious, reasonable man,

01:08:29.260 but I'm telling you, weird things were happening in that house with, like, the supernatural he was suggesting.

01:08:34.460 So this woman had a way of taking people in, 1.00

01:08:37.820 and she was the one who was there when the cops, who had received that 911 call, showed up.

01:08:44.680 And because of the exigent circumstances, they were able to go right in and search that house immediately.

01:08:49.960 And she freaked out on them, like, why?

01:08:51.780 I don't know if we have that one, Deb.

01:08:53.900 But where she was like, do we have it?

01:08:56.040 Or she was like, well, how can you come in?

01:08:57.300 Where's your warrant?

01:08:57.940 But, in any event, they went right in, and they found the other, the minor child who was still in there.

01:09:04.160 It's a girl, but they thought it was a boy because she was just unrecognizable.

01:09:08.160 Here we have a bit of that.

01:09:09.160 Let's listen.

01:09:10.540 Horrible.

01:09:11.820 Come on, my buddy.

01:09:13.360 I'm a police officer.

01:09:16.260 Hey, you okay?

01:09:18.720 Is this just you in here?

01:09:22.000 I'm Sergeant Tobler.

01:09:24.220 What's your name?

01:09:24.900 We, at first, thought it might have been a little boy sitting there, cross-legged, just staring up at us.

01:09:34.780 She ate the whole thing, so they ordered another one.

01:09:38.120 She ate half of a large pizza as well, along with a shake.

01:09:43.960 And what does that tell you about how hungry she was?

01:09:46.440 Food-deprived, hungry.

01:09:50.440 Just like R was at the time.

01:09:53.540 More than four hours after police make entry into Jody's home, he finally agrees to leave the closet.

01:10:01.780 Mm-hmm.

01:10:02.420 That's, it's amazing that they have the actual videotape.

01:10:06.100 I mean, and good for the cops for holding onto that and making sure those moments were documented.

01:10:10.100 But these children were emaciated, Arthur.

01:10:12.520 The boy who had been, you know, escaped, gone over the neighbors, had clear marks of being shackled around his legs.

01:10:19.920 He had, he had duct tape around his legs.

01:10:23.560 Underneath the duct tape was saran wrap, but he had visible wounds all over his body.

01:10:28.680 And it's amazing to me that this, this boy, this is a viewer warning, just FYI, this, we are showing pictures of the results of abuse, which I understand can be jarring and upsetting to some.

01:10:40.100 But it's important to see what was happening, because what happened over and over, oh, that's awful.

01:10:45.120 That's just awful.

01:10:46.620 What happened over and over, Arthur, was people tried to sound the alarm on this family, and nothing was done.

01:10:52.880 Nothing was done.

01:10:53.820 That's exactly, that's, you just, that was the question I was going to have.

01:10:58.900 Like, I know I don't have a typical lifestyle.

01:11:01.260 There's a lot of people around my world.

01:11:03.080 But, you know, even the neighbor on the 911 call says, I don't forget what exactly we said.

01:11:08.340 There's some weird things going on there, or some, he alluded to the fact that there was some weird stuff going on at the house.

01:11:14.680 Look, I know in New York, if you call, it's not that hard, as unfunctional, dysfunctional as the city of New York is, you start calling about kids being abused, the children's services are at your house pretty quickly, because they didn't do it once about a decade ago in a girl, in a case, and the girl died, the little child died.

01:11:34.460 So they've really upped their game in terms of doing wellness visits to the house, and, you know, why that wasn't done earlier or sooner, and there's teachers, there's providers that have, they're obligated to call and ask for help.

01:11:51.020 You know, the teacher who says, you know, your kid didn't come to school, well, she's going to be hungry, but, you know, she'll learn a lesson now.

01:11:58.900 I don't know.

01:11:59.400 I mean, you would like to think that someone along the world of all these kids would have sounded the alarm.

01:12:05.480 And where's Kevin, the husband, in all of this?

01:12:07.660 Doesn't he want to see his kids?

01:12:09.000 Doesn't he miss his kids?

01:12:10.740 Where's Kevin?

01:12:11.840 And we'll talk about Kevin in one second.

01:12:13.240 But before I get to that, I want to stay on the fact that nobody was following up on, you know, obvious red flags all over this household, Mark.

01:12:21.220 There are four older children who were not living in this home.

01:12:25.060 Again, where Ruby Frankie, the mother, I use that term generously, and her counselor slash friend, Jesse Hildebrandt.

01:12:32.780 Sorry, not Jesse.

01:12:34.180 Jesse's the niece.

01:12:36.240 Jody Hildebrandt were living.

01:12:38.220 And one of the older siblings in the Frankie family called Protective Services and asked for a welfare check on her younger siblings in 2022.

01:12:51.140 The father, Kevin, had moved out because the counselor, Jody, told him to get out to allegedly work on a porn addiction, which now he says he didn't have.

01:12:59.980 And what happened?

01:13:02.080 Nothing.

01:13:02.980 Here's thought 21.

01:13:08.220 Hi, my name is Sherry Frankie.

01:13:10.980 My four younger siblings are living in Springville, and my neighbors have been telling me that they have been left home alone for about four or five days.

01:13:19.300 And so I was curious if someone could go check on them.

01:13:22.680 I know CPS has come a couple times because of this already, but they never find a problem, but it keeps happening.

01:13:28.740 So I'm going to have an officer give you a call back.

01:13:31.720 So to fill in the blanks here, this daughter, after her mother was arrested, said justice is now being served.

01:13:40.980 We've been trying to tell police and CPS for years about this.

01:13:44.040 So glad they finally decided to step up.

01:13:46.160 Kids are safe, but there's a long road ahead.

01:13:48.320 Police reports appear to back her up.

01:13:50.120 This is from ABC's reporting in 2020.

01:13:53.080 Police told 2020 they were not able to get a warrant to search the home.

01:13:57.440 An unnamed neighbor claimed that multiple adults in the community had been trying to get the Utah Division of Child and Family Services involved for over a year, having noticed Frankie's long absences.

01:14:09.540 I'm really angry, says one, because I spoke up.

01:14:12.300 If people knew the amount of tears and time spent talking with law enforcement and CPS over the last year, I want people to understand that.

01:14:19.360 And I want these kids to know that because I think they thought they were abandoned.

01:14:23.580 The Springfield-Springville Police Department told NBC that officers did show up at Frankie's home to investigate, but their attempts and attempts by DCSF to contact the children proved unsuccessful because the kids wouldn't come to the door.

01:14:39.440 What, Mark?

01:14:40.280 What?

01:14:41.040 Oh, Megan.

01:14:42.360 So I would pray that somebody from that jurisdiction conducts an in-depth analysis to how they failed these children.

01:14:52.420 If you can explain it away, all right, well, the cops showed up and then, okay, they couldn't just go in because of X, Y, and Z, then we'll understand it.

01:15:01.340 But someone needs to be held accountable.

01:15:03.400 I bet there was something more that could have been done.

01:15:06.000 And if something more was done, we're talking about years of torture that could have been avoided.

01:15:12.000 I don't understand a scenario, Arthur, in which the cops are getting called by multiple community members.

01:15:20.020 DCFS is getting called by multiple community members.

01:15:22.300 There's something wrong.

01:15:23.140 There's abuse happening in the house, we suspect.

01:15:25.380 Please go check on them.

01:15:26.380 A family member, an older sibling calls.

01:15:29.100 And they show up.

01:15:30.740 And the kids won't come to the door.

01:15:34.260 And so they say, oh, nothing to see here.

01:15:36.460 I mean, we now know the kids can't come to the door because they're being kept like animals in makeshift prisons, little closets.

01:15:42.380 The kid with shackles on his feet.

01:15:43.980 That's why they, that's, that's, it's not immediately foreseeable.

01:15:47.940 It's not what comes to your mind immediately, but it is foreseeable in the field of I'm investigating abuse.

01:15:52.020 How could you, how do you walk away just because you can't see the kids?

01:15:54.120 So in Brooklyn, New York, they filed a report to the Child Protective Services.

01:16:01.700 And if I have my facts right, Child Protective Services said they went to the house to do a check and everything was okay and they didn't.

01:16:08.600 And those two workers were charged, I believe, with criminally negligent homicide.

01:16:13.940 It was a front page news story because the first time a city worker was indicted for not doing their job.

01:16:21.400 And obviously things have changed.

01:16:22.940 And if there's anything positive that you want to take out of this horrible story is I, I would hope that the regulations and the rules and their, the response time, you know, is altered.

01:16:35.460 I am thinking, Megan, I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

01:16:38.980 The fact that this is in Utah, which is a kind of a different state than maybe other states in the union.

01:16:44.340 Do you think that has any effect on this?

01:16:47.640 I don't know.

01:16:48.600 How it's handled?

01:16:50.500 I don't know.

01:16:51.360 I mean, you know, Mormons, this isn't a Mormon thing, but there may be some extreme sect of, you know, an offshoot that is, is more prone to like living without the authorities coming or not sending their kids to school.

01:17:04.280 I have no idea.

01:17:05.260 I mean, we've seen that in like cults.

01:17:06.780 And this woman, uh, Jody was accused of running her own kind of cult because what happened was she became the therapist for Ruby Frankie and her husband, Kevin.

01:17:18.060 And then before you knew it, she had Kevin out of the house.

01:17:21.200 She had Kevin out of the picture telling him he had a porn addiction.

01:17:24.460 Apparently she said that to anybody who had ever like seen porn or like, you know, self-pleasure would get you in trouble with this woman in any degree. 0.99

01:17:32.540 She's got a, a niece who, when news broke of the, her arrest, Jody and Rudy's, uh, arrest Ruby, Jesse, the niece reached out to cops to help them with their investigation.

01:17:43.420 And she said, quote, Ruby needs to be held accountable because she made these choices. 1.00

01:17:47.860 She's just as guilty, but Jody's been doing this for years for much longer, says the niece.

01:17:52.680 She says back in 2010, I, the niece, Jesse went to cops in Utah and said there'd been extreme mental abuse at Jody's hand that I, Jesse, the niece needed a safe house because my aunt Jody subjected me to severe emotional, spiritual, and psychological abuse.

01:18:10.340 Jody accused her, that, that my aunt Jody accused me, Jesse, of being a sex and a porn addict addicted to masturbation, said the therapy she insisted on included the niece not being able to use tampons or having any privacy in the bathroom.

01:18:25.760 Quote, she wanted to make my life so uncomfortable that it would have forced sin out. 0.99

01:18:29.680 This continuously got worse and worse.

01:18:31.640 So there's a reference there to religiosity, right?

01:18:34.560 Jesse went to cops to report the alleged abuse.

01:18:36.700 Nothing was done.

01:18:37.420 And then she says, this is not just a specific thing to her, Jody.

01:18:43.200 This is the criminal aunt.

01:18:44.880 Utah culture, says the niece, is permeated with Mormon culture.

01:18:50.160 And this idea of covering up and believing authority, Jody had everyone wrapped around her finger.

01:18:56.120 So that's her accusation.

01:18:57.580 I want to name.

01:18:58.320 I want to name.

01:18:59.220 If she went to someone in 2010, there'd be a report.

01:19:02.080 I want to know who it was she spoke to and find out why nothing allegedly was done.

01:19:11.120 Me too.

01:19:12.300 So can we talk about Kevin?

01:19:13.800 I know you raised Kevin.

01:19:14.900 I got a lot more to get to on this case.

01:19:16.180 But Kevin gets called down to the police station by the cops.

01:19:19.460 And he's like, huh?

01:19:22.300 What?

01:19:22.920 I got kicked out of the house a year ago.

01:19:24.680 I don't know anybody anymore.

01:19:25.940 I haven't seen my kids in a year.

01:19:28.260 I don't know.

01:19:28.780 I was told by Jody, the therapist, I had a porn addiction and I couldn't have any.

01:19:32.840 And so he did it.

01:19:34.120 He left, had all contact with his children, severed.

01:19:38.000 And he had no objections, apparently.

01:19:40.240 So he's, this is, I guess I say, a well-educated man with a good job.

01:19:43.380 Here he is a little bit in the police interrogation being told about it.

01:19:45.820 I know you curse, but my mother gets mad at me, so I won't curse. 1.00

01:19:50.820 He's a piece of garbage, an absolute piece of garbage on so many levels. 1.00

01:19:57.300 Let's just say, let's just say there was no abuse going on. 1.00

01:20:00.400 And some shrink tells you you got some addiction, you got to get out of the house.

01:20:03.760 And you just hold up camp and be like, okay, I'm not going to see my kids again. 0.96

01:20:08.960 Drop dead. 0.91

01:20:09.600 I got nothing to do with you. 1.00

01:20:10.600 Any father, any parent who just disregards their parental duties like that,

01:20:15.820 so easily, you have no worth in my life.

01:20:19.380 I don't care how smart you are.

01:20:20.600 You can be a trillionaire.

01:20:21.980 I don't care.

01:20:23.360 That's number one.

01:20:24.580 But number two, he has an idea of possible abuse of his kids.

01:20:28.660 He knows that his wife, without playing with a full deck, you don't go and check. 0.53

01:20:33.700 You don't ask.

01:20:34.740 Father's Day, Mother's Day, Christmas, holidays, birthdays.

01:20:37.320 You just let it go by.

01:20:38.440 I have no idea why Kevin is not charged with this.

01:20:41.760 In some way, if I was the VA, I would figure out some way to come up with some negligence

01:20:47.600 theory and put handcuffs on him, if just to punish him and scare the hell out of him.

01:20:52.200 Let me play Kevin, okay?

01:20:54.620 Because when he was told about the condition of his children, I thought it was bizarre.

01:20:59.320 Here's a little bit of it in SOT 25 with the cops.

01:21:02.100 Well, I want to pick up my kids.

01:21:05.760 I haven't seen them for over a year.

01:21:07.880 Any of them?

01:21:09.320 No.

01:21:10.660 No.

01:21:11.120 Have you communicated with your wife regarding, like, discipline with your kids or their care

01:21:16.860 or their physical well-being?

01:21:18.760 No.

01:21:19.000 A 12- to 13-year-old boy was knocking on doors in the neighborhood asking for food and water.

01:21:28.920 That he was severely emaciated.

01:21:31.800 That he had...

01:21:32.460 What is emaciated?

01:21:33.820 Skinny, scrawny, malnutritioned, not enough food, not enough water to sustain life.

01:21:41.040 So he had...

01:21:42.160 I'm sorry, what?

01:21:42.800 I love my wife.

01:21:46.620 I don't want any of the kids to incriminate her or me in ways that I don't understand.

01:21:55.260 Okay.

01:21:55.840 That is bizarre.

01:21:57.500 Mark, if you listen to the whole thing, he's not like, what?

01:22:01.580 How is he?

01:22:02.740 Where is he?

01:22:03.620 What exactly?

01:22:04.540 What are the injuries?

01:22:05.460 Oh, my God.

01:22:06.460 He's, like, very measured.

01:22:07.940 Like, well, what does emaciated mean?

01:22:09.940 Well, what was...

01:22:10.940 I mean, it is the weirdest reaction to news of your child, your children, having been...

01:22:16.500 Forgive me.

01:22:17.720 Here's a shot of the poor boy who...

01:22:20.540 All you can think of is the Holocaust when you see those shoulder blades. 0.62

01:22:25.120 I mean, this child was starving to death.

01:22:28.220 I'm not saying that this guy knew anything.

01:22:31.080 I'm saying he does a damn good impression of somebody who did know what was going on.

01:22:36.260 His effect is troubling at best.

01:22:39.680 And to Arthur's point, at a minimum, even if he didn't know what was going on in that

01:22:44.340 house, the fact that he abandoned those kids and didn't check on them at all, to me, is

01:22:51.140 borderline criminal.

01:22:53.340 Mm-hmm.

01:22:53.720 I mean, he says he continued to pay for them, but that he'd been kind of banned to go work

01:22:58.860 on his porn addiction.

01:23:00.240 But I mean, it is a complete dereliction of your parental duties.

01:23:02.920 How does that say to you?

01:23:04.400 Banned by who?

01:23:05.360 He's not banned.

01:23:06.320 I would shove it up his nose.

01:23:08.060 But banned by who?

01:23:08.920 By some shrink who he disagrees with?

01:23:11.080 It's one thing when a judge in these horrible divorce proceedings says, you know, you can't

01:23:15.160 see your kid and you can't go back to the house and there's an order of protection.

01:23:18.600 Now you're banned.

01:23:19.340 Now you're going to get handcuffs put on you. 0.85

01:23:20.960 And even then, you fight, you fight, you fight for that child or those children.

01:23:24.860 Here, he's just like, oh, really?

01:23:26.660 I have a porn addiction.

01:23:27.620 You know, when you come around, I'll still write you a check, but I'm not going to check 0.72

01:23:31.980 on my kids. 1.00

01:23:32.940 Go to hell, man. 1.00

01:23:33.720 I got no, no use for that guy. 0.99

01:23:35.940 So what, but like, what is the possibility?

01:23:37.760 And we're speculating here, but the possibility is that he knew very well because look, all

01:23:42.920 the stuff we kicked it off with, with like the one kid who had to sleep on a bean bag

01:23:46.300 for a year because some minor offense in the household, like not cleaning his room.

01:23:50.740 It was something small.

01:23:51.580 So he had to sleep on a bean bag for a year, which is what led those 8,000 people to write

01:23:57.000 in to DCSF and others saying, you need to investigate this family for abuse.

01:24:00.680 They were posting that on the YouTube.

01:24:02.600 He was totally on board for all of that because he was with her.

01:24:05.680 That was before he'd been ejected by the counselor.

01:24:08.740 So, I mean, like the Kevin definitely knew a lot.

01:24:12.000 And I think the theory that we're just kicking around or speculation is that he knew very well

01:24:16.700 that they were taking it to the next level inside that house.

01:24:20.080 He, you know, like I say, he's talking about how, I don't know what it is, but like plates

01:24:24.960 were flying and I, you know, I don't know where, who made them fly.

01:24:28.760 You know, he's buying into the fact that this therapist either has magical powers or is dealing

01:24:33.800 with a demon and like measures will be taken, right?

01:24:37.120 To fight back.

01:24:38.340 I got, I think he knew, but that's my belief is that this guy knew and was on board and

01:24:43.400 was part of the weird therapy prescriptions of this nutcase, Jody.

01:24:47.620 Or should have known, I mean, knew or should have known, reckless or a reckless disregard

01:24:54.040 of, of what was going on in that home.

01:24:57.040 And to me, again, it's morally bankrupt, you know, to, to do something like that.

01:25:01.740 I don't know what, what father could possibly do something like that.

01:25:05.620 Here he is talking to Ruby.

01:25:08.100 Oh, go ahead.

01:25:08.580 Go ahead, Arthur.

01:25:09.400 Well, to Mark's point, you know, knew or should have known it's triggering like here in New

01:25:12.440 York.

01:25:12.980 I mean, that's criminally negligent homicide.

01:25:14.740 He's banned from the house.

01:25:17.080 There's no court order saying he can't go home.

01:25:19.360 Some civilian said, come back to the house. 0.50

01:25:22.280 Doesn't mean he can't come back to the house.

01:25:24.240 And if he knows that his children are being abused and they're minors, he has an obligation

01:25:28.600 in danger in the welfare of the child.

01:25:30.660 Check.

01:25:31.420 Felony charge on him.

01:25:33.320 Really negligent homicide.

01:25:34.600 Check.

01:25:35.940 Felony charge on him.

01:25:37.920 He's banned from the house. 1.00

01:25:39.300 Some jerk told him, oh, you can't come home and see your kids. 0.99

01:25:41.880 He knows that there's weird stuff going on. 1.00

01:25:43.760 You don't even check on them.

01:25:45.180 You don't call someone else to check on them.

01:25:46.880 You don't call your adult children to check on them. 0.89

01:25:49.400 I would fart on this guy. 1.00

01:25:52.060 I would send a guy from Pulp Fiction who's going to go medieval on his ass on him. 1.00

01:25:56.460 Yeah. 0.99

01:25:56.960 Yeah.

01:25:57.340 Honestly, I like I don't understand.

01:25:58.900 Maybe they'll still take a look at him.

01:26:00.200 It doesn't sound like it, though, with the other two already sentenced and going to jail.

01:26:04.280 But here's in the beginning, he stuck by Ruby and then ultimately filed for divorce.

01:26:08.560 But here is a conversation he had with her right after she'd been arrested.

01:26:13.060 She's in jail during this. 0.97

01:26:14.860 This is via 2020, SOT26.

01:26:16.900 I do feel strong and I feel calm.

01:26:20.820 And you know what?

01:26:22.000 Adults have a really hard time understanding that children can be full of evil and what

01:26:26.400 that takes to fight it.

01:26:27.740 They're going to be in the hospital for three days.

01:26:31.320 It's so weird.

01:26:33.060 It's just not necessary.

01:26:36.120 I'm trying to exaggerate this.

01:26:38.400 She's she's out of her mind.

01:26:42.980 I mean, for the listening audience, truly, if you saw the pictures of that boy, he does

01:26:47.000 look like a Holocaust victim that he's that emaciated and his wounds on his leg legs from 0.92

01:26:53.600 where the restraints were or the tape or both.

01:26:57.280 Are deep and look extremely painful.

01:27:00.400 And let's not forget, he went over to the neighbors that day after having escaped somehow

01:27:04.520 from the house saying, can I please get something to eat and drink?

01:27:07.660 He was starving to death.

01:27:09.760 He was dying of thirst.

01:27:11.760 They weren't taking care of his basic needs.

01:27:13.660 So she's the mother is in like they're exaggerating.

01:27:18.620 It really wasn't that bad, Megan.

01:27:21.100 So to the point of whether he knew or should have known, OK, giving him every benefit of

01:27:27.120 the doubt, which I'm not really I'm reluctantly doing now, she's been arrested.

01:27:31.800 Now you would have thought that he would have found out what really she did to his kids.

01:27:39.860 And while she's talking on the phone, saying how evil kids can be, he doesn't object.

01:27:46.400 He doesn't say, what are you talking about?

01:27:48.700 They're exaggerating.

01:27:50.400 Look at the injuries you inflicted on them, on my children.

01:27:54.300 Nothing.

01:27:55.860 I don't know.

01:27:56.980 Strong argument again that he knew or should have known.

01:28:00.340 By the way, Jody Hildebrandt, the alleged counselor, decided to point the finger at

01:28:06.140 the mother, even though Jody was the one who was home when the cops came and raided the

01:28:09.720 house and rescued the daughter.

01:28:11.540 The mother wasn't even there at the time.

01:28:13.220 Jody was there.

01:28:13.800 Jody knew.

01:28:14.380 She knew everything.

01:28:15.060 That's why she's in jail now for 30 years where she belongs. 1.00

01:28:17.340 But in the beginning, she tried to blame the mother.

01:28:20.360 Here again, via 2020, it's not 27.

01:28:23.840 I shouldn't be here.

01:28:25.020 I haven't done anything wrong.

01:28:28.860 I can't believe what I'm being accused of.

01:28:31.540 I just can't believe it.

01:28:32.620 I just can't believe it.

01:28:34.180 We didn't do that.

01:28:35.140 Those pictures we did not do.

01:28:36.540 He did that to himself.

01:28:37.620 Yes.

01:28:37.960 Did we put that on him and then he rubbed around and cut himself?

01:28:41.700 Yes.

01:28:42.120 But we didn't do that.

01:28:44.460 Oh, my God.

01:28:45.280 They made him wear saran wrap.

01:28:47.280 She was blaming the sun.

01:28:48.660 She wasn't blaming the co-defendant.

01:28:50.500 She was blaming the sun.

01:28:52.060 Go ahead, Arthur.

01:28:52.340 Didn't they do something insane where they wrapped the kid in saran wrap on his birthday?

01:28:57.040 It was 110 degrees outside.

01:28:58.680 It made him jump down on a trampoline until his skin was melting off.

01:29:02.840 I mean, this is, look, I'm with Mark.

01:29:05.220 Normally, I'm not like, rah, rah, life in prison.

01:29:07.760 But this is one of them.

01:29:08.620 These people should not be out of society.

01:29:11.840 And this case should be bigger than it even is. 0.95

01:29:13.880 As a warning sign to crazy-ass parents and to authorities all over the nation, when there

01:29:20.860 was any hint that something, this type of abuse is going on, that's when we need to trample 0.88

01:29:25.900 on people's rights.

01:29:26.740 You know, oh, we couldn't get a warrant to go in the house.

01:29:29.360 Give me a break.

01:29:30.140 They get warrants to do anything, anytime they want.

01:29:32.660 Give me a break.

01:29:33.720 Look in the house.

01:29:34.540 I don't understand.

01:29:34.980 There's plenty of ways to figure out what's going on.

01:29:36.680 I have kids right around this age.

01:29:39.900 If I did not send them to school, or if I sent them to school like this, you know how

01:29:44.780 many people would be all over me in my house, justifiably, understandably?

01:29:49.000 Like, where were the authorities?

01:29:51.800 If there's not a full-fledged investigation on how they dropped the ball, then this is all

01:29:56.040 for naught, because thank God these children have finally been rescued, though not without

01:29:59.920 significant lifetime emotional scars, Mark, as you said.

01:30:02.880 Yeah.

01:30:04.060 But what other kids are out there right now?

01:30:06.560 Like, the system was alerted here, and it completely failed them.

01:30:11.420 And who else are they failing right now?

01:30:13.640 What other kids are being treated?

01:30:15.040 And not everybody should be a parent.

01:30:16.320 You know, this woman put some of the abuse on YouTube, had another child call, had a niece 0.99

01:30:23.320 of the other perpetrator call, had neighbors calling.

01:30:26.780 They showed up there.

01:30:28.700 The children were not seen by the investigators who rang the doorbell to see if they were okay.

01:30:34.260 And instead of saying, we're coming back every day until we lay eyes on them, they said,

01:30:38.240 ah, couldn't find them.

01:30:40.000 They didn't come.

01:30:40.380 Like, if the system isn't investigated itself, this is even more of an epic fail than it already

01:30:46.520 has been.

01:30:47.560 I think we're all on the same page there.

01:30:49.120 Let me take a quick break.

01:30:50.480 Back on the opposite end, we'll tackle P. Diddy.

01:30:54.040 Arthur, Mark, stay with me.

01:30:55.340 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM.

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01:31:53.240 P. Diddy had his homes raided by the FBI or Department of Homeland Security, and they made

01:32:06.560 quite a mess out of things.

01:32:07.880 And we've got a little bit of the video of the aftermath courtesy of TMZ.

01:32:12.060 Take a look at this.

01:32:13.420 Quite a scene.

01:32:14.600 I think this is the, look at this.

01:32:18.860 This is like the electronics, you know, heart of his home.

01:32:24.700 And reportedly, they went to town on all of his hard drives and computers and so on.

01:32:29.760 I mean, every computer, every door, every cabinet open, a mess is made.

01:32:37.460 Those hard drives are going to be important.

01:32:40.060 They're obviously looking for evidence that would support the, here's inside his safes,

01:32:44.080 of sex trafficking, which is the believed suspicion that may have justified the raid.

01:32:50.120 So, here we are, guys, you know, a week later, and there's been no arrest of Diddy.

01:32:55.520 How long does it take to search the hard drives?

01:32:58.840 And what do we make of this?

01:33:00.780 Go ahead, Mark.

01:33:01.740 This is going to take quite some time.

01:33:04.180 Are you kidding me?

01:33:05.140 This is, you expect after a week, they're going to take a lot of time.

01:33:09.420 They've got to go through every single line of every text, every email, make their interpretations,

01:33:17.220 add that, and see if it corroborates what their already cooperating witnesses are saying.

01:33:22.500 They don't rush it.

01:33:23.720 The minute they make an arrest, the speedy trial clock starts to tick.

01:33:27.800 So, they would rather, knowing he's not going anywhere, he's extremely famous, he's not going

01:33:31.740 to flee, take their time, build their case, and then the minute they make an arrest, they've

01:33:37.420 got to be ready to go to trial.

01:33:38.780 So, they hand over a ton of evidence, and they go, we're ready, leaving me and Arthur, if hypothetically

01:33:43.820 we were defending him, with a mountain of evidence, unable to go to trial within the constraints

01:33:49.540 given to us by a judge.

01:33:51.780 So, they're going to take their time, make sure they're ready to go.

01:33:55.100 Hmm.

01:33:55.400 You agree with that, Arthur?

01:33:56.560 You're not, you don't think it's weird that they don't have a case just because they haven't

01:33:59.360 arrested him yet?

01:34:00.780 Yeah.

01:34:01.340 That's basically what Mark said, the standard operating procedure.

01:34:03.980 I mean, that's the difference between local prosecutors.

01:34:06.740 It's like, you know, robbers and bank robbers and thieves, and, you know, they kind of grab

01:34:11.180 them, and then they figure out the evidences with the feds, they figure out what all the

01:34:15.220 evidence is, they keep an eye on where that person is, and, you know, they don't make an

01:34:19.720 arrest until, I mean, they have a 97% conviction rate or some crazy number like that, because

01:34:25.020 they don't put the handcuffs on someone until they feel that there's no way they can win.

01:34:30.060 And there's a lot of stuff here to go through.

01:34:31.780 But boy, they were so, first of all, those pictures that you showed, I know they handle things

01:34:36.980 differently.

01:34:37.520 In New York, that's not typical when they do a search warrant on some of that.

01:34:42.600 I represented Rudy Giuliani when they executed a search warrant on his apartment.

01:34:47.420 They definitely did not do that in his apartment.

01:34:50.240 Now, P. Diddy and Rudy Giuliani maybe shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

01:34:54.480 But, you know, Rudy was treated and his apartment was treated, you know, very, very appropriately,

01:35:00.080 very nicely.

01:35:00.780 There was a lot of cooperation going on.

01:35:02.760 And there was no, I mean, these guys flew in helicopters.

01:35:07.000 It's not what they did to Roger Stone.

01:35:08.580 It's just like, let's show you.

01:35:10.740 There are allegations against P. Diddy about multiple guns.

01:35:14.120 Now they're taking another look at that infamous shooting in that New York club where J-Lo was

01:35:19.140 with him because she was his girlfriend at the time.

01:35:21.480 And it was said to be done by one of his associates.

01:35:23.640 He was there.

01:35:24.540 But now a witness is saying, actually, it was P. Diddy.

01:35:28.140 So there's allegations in his case that he's actually a dangerous man with a bunch of guns that

01:35:32.340 he's used before.

01:35:33.680 I'm surprised.

01:35:34.800 Arthur's surprised that they left his place that way.

01:35:38.720 What, Arthur's clients, what they clean up after?

01:35:41.680 I mean, none of my clients, high profile or not, that's how they leave houses after.

01:35:48.800 Well, maybe my cops are nicer than yours.

01:35:50.940 What do you want me to tell you?

01:35:51.700 It would be incredibly annoying.

01:35:53.220 I hope these pretty guys are nicer than yours here in the city.

01:35:56.060 You really don't want them to get a search point.

01:35:56.700 They leave a little chocolate on the bed for your clients, I'm sure.

01:35:59.680 Yeah, exactly.

01:36:00.740 You really, like if they get a search warrant, they have absolutely no obligation to do it

01:36:04.080 neatly or leave your home in a nice condition.

01:36:06.360 So you really don't want it to get to that point.

01:36:07.960 But it did with P. Diddy.

01:36:09.320 OK, so let's get into what we think the allegations against him are, or at least what they might

01:36:13.380 potentially be investigating.

01:36:14.760 So there was a bombshell of a lawsuit filed against Diddy by his ex-girlfriend, Cassie.

01:36:21.060 And while he came out and said, I deny everything, and it was about abuse, beating her up, sexual

01:36:27.700 misbehavior, he said, I deny it all.

01:36:32.240 This is a lie.

01:36:33.080 And within one day, he settled it.

01:36:34.960 Within one day.

01:36:36.340 Well, then came this guy, Rodney Lil Rod Jones, who filed a lawsuit right around the same time.

01:36:44.500 And he claims Diddy repeatedly sexually assaulted him from September 22 to November 23, while

01:36:50.520 Jones was a producer and videographer.

01:36:52.620 His lawsuit is for $30 million, filed the suit in federal court in New York's Southern District.

01:36:58.340 He compared Combs to Jeffrey Epstein, accused him of groping his genitals, grooming him into 0.82

01:37:03.900 having sex, forcing him to procure sex workers, strippers, and drugs. 0.97

01:37:07.980 Claims at one point he woke up in the bed with Diddy and some sex workers and thought that

01:37:12.200 he had been drugged by Diddy, I mean, forgive me, but weirdly claims in the lawsuit that 0.97

01:37:16.800 Diddy kept touching his anus, which is like a weird thing to say, just kind of keeps happening 0.95

01:37:21.100 to you in a home. 0.96

01:37:21.900 I don't understand that allegation, but there's a real question about whether this guy is real

01:37:28.040 and had all this stuff happen to him, or whether he saw Cassie come forward, get a settlement

01:37:33.140 within 24 hours, and then decided, maybe there's a pot of gold there.

01:37:38.340 So with all due respect to Mr. Jones, I don't know what the truth is, but that's certainly

01:37:41.980 what the Diddy team is going to say, because they say everything he's alleged is 100% provably

01:37:46.800 false.

01:37:48.480 He's another one of the witnesses.

01:37:50.780 Then I'll mention what the J-Lo shooting in one second.

01:37:54.080 But just take on those two things, Cassie and Little Rod, as far as the alleged sex trafficking

01:37:59.200 allegations go.

01:38:01.080 So there's a reason why the feds took the time to apply to a federal judge and establish

01:38:07.380 probable cause to go into both of Diddy's castles, because absent that corroborating,

01:38:14.480 supporting evidence, they're not getting a conviction with just the testimony of that

01:38:19.020 guy or her or just human beings.

01:38:21.860 There is a built-in motive to allege false things against celebrities.

01:38:27.080 We call it a cash grab.

01:38:28.780 So you better have corroborating, supporting evidence of your allegations.

01:38:35.320 What do I think that they're doing?

01:38:36.680 This particular agency that went in, it's not a local agency.

01:38:40.820 It's a federal agency that typically handles sex trafficking cases.

01:38:44.560 And those are some of the allegations being made.

01:38:47.420 If it was just a sexual assault, him touching the part of the body that you mentioned earlier,

01:38:52.780 that'd be handled by local authorities.

01:38:54.460 I think that when you're dealing with a federal agency like this who handles sex trafficking,

01:38:59.000 you're talking about an allegation of him doing something involving over state lines,

01:39:05.700 the movement of potentially young people.

01:39:08.820 That's what's being alleged.

01:39:10.060 And that's why you have this agency involved.

01:39:13.120 The the lawsuit followed filed by Mr. Jones claims that Mr. Jones looks up to this idolized

01:39:21.040 music producer, Steve Jordan, Stevie Jake. 0.76

01:39:24.460 And that Combs exploited that to try to get this guy, Jones, to have sex with Combs. 0.94

01:39:32.340 They say Mr. Combs informed Jones that he had engaged in sexual intercourse with rapper,

01:39:37.760 redacted R&B singer, redacted and Stevie J.

01:39:40.960 Mr. Combs went so far as to share a video of who he claims was Stevie J anally penetrating

01:39:47.520 a Caucasian male without a condom.

01:39:49.480 Forgive me, audience reading from the complaint here.

01:39:51.740 Mr. Jones believes that Mr. Combs showed him this.

01:39:54.460 And attributed it to his idol, Stevie J, to ease Mr. Jones's anxiety concerning homosexuality.

01:40:01.180 According to Mr. Jones, Mr. Combs said, this is a normal practice in the music industry.

01:40:05.120 Look, even Stevie J is doing it. 1.00

01:40:07.040 Then they say that they are in possession of the video and will provide a copy to the court,

01:40:11.400 including still frames of it.

01:40:13.900 And that's, you know, it's kind of reminding me a little bit of Harvey in the pattern evidence,

01:40:19.220 Arthur, because they're saying he's a deviant, that this Sean Combs is a deviant and that he

01:40:26.240 exploited this guy.

01:40:27.540 He exploited Cassie. 0.98

01:40:29.340 He's constantly surrounded by sex workers and weird sex parties.

01:40:33.040 And there's this video circulating on the Internet of a young Justin Bieber. 0.54

01:40:37.860 I'm not suggesting he sexually abused Justin Bieber, but I'm going to show you a couple of videos that

01:40:42.020 suggest like the guy's off.

01:40:45.300 Bieber was 15 years old.

01:40:47.500 It was around 20 2009.

01:40:49.760 And apparently he was, for some reason, spending the weekend with, to me, what appears to be a very

01:40:55.800 creepy P. Diddy.

01:40:57.820 Look at this.

01:40:58.680 Stop 14.

01:40:59.920 Justin, he's in, you ever seen the movie 48 Hours?

01:41:02.720 Right now, he's having 48 hours with Diddy, him and his boy.

01:41:07.080 They're having the times of their lives, like, you know, where we hanging out and what we doing.

01:41:12.240 Um, we, we can't really disclose, but, um, it's definitely a 15 year old's dream.

01:41:20.580 Um, you know, I, I have been given custody of him.

01:41:25.100 You know, he signed to Usher.

01:41:26.520 I'm signed to Usher.

01:41:27.260 I had legal guardianship of Usher when, when, you know, he, he did his first album.

01:41:32.420 I did Usher's first album.

01:41:33.680 I don't really, I don't have legal guardianship of him, but for the next 48 hours, he's with

01:41:38.080 me, so, um, and yeah, and we're going to go full, buck, full, crazy.

01:41:44.100 We're going crazy. 0.76

01:41:46.180 Hmm.

01:41:47.100 What do you make of it?

01:41:48.760 Yeah, I'm happy that's not my son, Luca, in that video right there.

01:41:52.660 And I say that with all sincerity.

01:41:53.700 You would never give custody of your son, Luca, to P. Diddy for a weekend.

01:41:58.540 Yeah, that is a fact.

01:42:00.660 Um, you know, we'll talk about his defense for a second, because you brought it up already.

01:42:05.380 And you talked about the thing with J-Lo, right?

01:42:08.660 So I know a lot about that, because my father represented Jennifer Lopez at the time.

01:42:12.860 And I was in the courtroom for the submissions, where it was, um, Ben Brofman summing up.

01:42:18.580 And, um, his opening line was basically the witness, the main witness against him has,

01:42:25.800 and I remember the number, it was like 80 million or 100 million reasons to lie, because

01:42:30.340 she's suing him.

01:42:32.360 And it's-

01:42:32.780 She got shot in the face.

01:42:33.420 Right, okay, so she's the one who's suing him.

01:42:36.480 So if she, if he gets convicted, automatically she wins the lawsuit.

01:42:40.380 It's just a matter of how much money.

01:42:42.160 And so they, the whole, um, presentation to the jury was, and Johnny Cochran was on the

01:42:49.040 team as well, was all about, um, if this is her money, she's saying what she needs to

01:42:53.360 save her money, it's a money grab, it's a money grab, it's a money grab, and he was

01:42:56.060 acquitted.

01:42:56.380 Now they want to revisit this saying that did he actually did do the shooting and he

01:43:01.560 paid someone else off to take the, to take the fall who got sentenced to 10 years in jail.

01:43:06.200 I'm not a big fan of going back almost 30 years looking at crimes and trying to, that have already

01:43:12.960 been litigated and there's double jeopardy in the state court.

01:43:15.440 Yeah.

01:43:15.740 But here, the one thing about this new allegation is it's not from 30 years ago.

01:43:19.880 It's from 2022 and 2023, which, you know, I don't know, may ring true. 0.99

01:43:25.560 The bottom line is what Mark said in the very beginning is they're going to go through everything

01:43:29.600 they got from him and try to piece it all together.

01:43:33.320 This prosecutor, this Damian Williams of the Southern District of New York, he is cut from

01:43:38.740 the same cloth as Rudy Giuliani and Preet Bharara.

01:43:41.380 He is looking for the big names to, you know, to indict and get his name out there.

01:43:46.740 This is the same prosecutor who handed a search warrant to the mayor of the city of New York,

01:43:50.720 the sitting mayor of the city of New York, sick, almost six months ago and nothing has happened.

01:43:55.740 So, you know, these things take time.

01:43:58.120 I hope for the mayor of the city of New York, nothing happens.

01:44:00.720 For P. Diddy, I don't know.

01:44:01.960 Mark Raglush said, P. Diddy's not going anywhere.

01:44:05.120 I don't know if I was P. Diddy and I, if I knew I did something wrong, I wouldn't be so

01:44:08.740 sure that I wouldn't be going somewhere.

01:44:11.120 What do you mean fleeing?

01:44:12.000 Is that what you mean?

01:44:13.440 Yeah.

01:44:14.600 Yeah.

01:44:14.980 But as they're, I mean.

01:44:15.840 Where is he going?

01:44:16.700 You know.

01:44:17.200 Well, there's a report that he's not going to be extradited.

01:44:20.960 But when the allegation, you know, if it's fraud, maybe they don't bring him back.

01:44:26.400 When you throw out what I think we're going to hear, and again, he's presumed to be innocent.

01:44:31.240 I don't know that he did anything.

01:44:32.100 But if they're throwing around a sex trafficking investigation, particularly involving minors,

01:44:36.940 there are very few countries that wouldn't return him right away.

01:44:40.420 So I don't think he's going anywhere.

01:44:42.820 Guys, you're the best.

01:44:44.200 All the best to both of you.

01:44:45.780 And again, Arthur, congrats on your big Court of Appeals argument.

01:44:49.040 We're proud of you.

01:44:50.440 Thank you so much, Megan.

01:44:51.980 All right, guys.

01:44:52.440 Lots of love.

01:44:52.900 See you soon.

01:44:53.960 Thanks, Meg.

01:44:55.040 I actually have some more things I want to say about this case before we wrap.

01:44:58.460 Our panel had to go, but I've got some more thoughts on Diddy.

01:45:00.640 I want to go through them.

01:45:02.220 So here's the thing.

01:45:04.100 I mentioned that we're going to be showing you some videos.

01:45:06.680 There's another video of Diddy on Nickelodeon.

01:45:11.160 My God, Nickelodeon.

01:45:13.020 We just did a whole show on Nickelodeon, which was like pedophile central.

01:45:17.940 Not so long ago, we talked about the number of pedophiles who got arrested there, the one

01:45:22.480 for the inappropriate contact with a minor and the one with the child pornography and so

01:45:27.460 on, and now Diddy swung by Nickelodeon and appears in a video.

01:45:34.800 I just had to show this to you because you got to see what they had him do.

01:45:39.080 This creepy guy, Dan Schneider, who was behind all the hit shows there.

01:45:43.680 Look at Diddy's appearance on Nickelodeon back in 2002.

01:45:47.360 It's like name the celebrity and you can find a creepy video of them on Dan Schneider's

01:46:16.040 Nickelodeon, you know, whether it's Ariana Grande squirting water all over herself and 1.00

01:46:20.320 writhing on the bed when she was prepubescent, or now you see Diddy and we went through a

01:46:25.660 bunch of them last week.

01:46:26.940 But I mean, this channel, I'll never look at it the same again, ever.

01:46:30.740 So Diddy thought that was an appropriate bit to be in.

01:46:33.980 Okay, that's fine.

01:46:34.700 He also thought it was appropriate to say what he said about Justin Bieber when he was 15.

01:46:38.440 All right, less fine.

01:46:39.700 And then you've got Usher.

01:46:42.920 You heard Bieber mention, I'm signed to Usher, who was a protege of Diddy's when he was just

01:46:50.140 in his teens and actually spoke to Howard Stern about it in 2016, you know, looking back at

01:46:58.080 when he was only 13 years old and encountered Diddy.

01:47:02.740 Listen to this, Sat 15.

01:47:04.980 I lived with Sean Puffy Combs for a year.

01:47:07.760 That's the crazy thing.

01:47:08.760 Now, that was L.A. Reid's idea, right?

01:47:10.460 We're sending you over to something called Puffy Flavor Camp.

01:47:13.340 There you go.

01:47:13.880 You were 13.

01:47:14.580 What were you seeing?

01:47:15.100 I went there to see the lifestyle.

01:47:16.540 Right.

01:47:16.880 And I saw it.

01:47:18.680 But I don't know if I could indulge and understand what I was even looking at.

01:47:22.660 It was pretty wild.

01:47:23.780 So nobody tried to, you know, some woman didn't come along.

01:47:27.900 I didn't say that.

01:47:28.440 Okay.

01:47:30.000 What I did say is that there were very curious things taking place, and I didn't necessarily

01:47:34.280 understand it.

01:47:35.440 Would you ever send your kid to Puffy Camp?

01:47:38.020 Hell no.

01:47:38.760 No, he wouldn't.

01:47:43.040 And nor should you and nor should Bieber's parents have done so, nor should any of these

01:47:48.060 parents.

01:47:48.780 I mean, I don't understand the parent who allows their minor child to go spend a weekend, never

01:47:53.140 mind a year with someone like a music star who, you know, leads probably some sort of advanced

01:48:02.280 lifestyle.

01:48:02.800 You don't want your kid exposed to.

01:48:03.980 Never mind.

01:48:04.440 Somebody like Diddy, who, you know, as of that, that shooting incident was 2001.

01:48:09.680 One, like that had long been on the record.

01:48:13.140 I don't get it.

01:48:14.380 And I think Diddy's questionable choices are catching up with him in a way that I'm perfectly

01:48:18.600 fine with.

01:48:19.140 And I agree with the guys.

01:48:19.980 It's probably not going to be too much longer until we see Diddy in cuffs and arrested for

01:48:25.560 what appears to me to be a pattern of behavior.

01:48:27.740 Having said that, his attorney, Sean Holly, has disputed the allegations previously, saying

01:48:33.120 we have overwhelming, indisputable proof that these claims, the ones I read from Mr. Jones,

01:48:39.080 are complete lies.

01:48:40.500 They also denied the claims of Cassie in that lawsuit that they settled.

01:48:43.920 And as for Stevie J, who was accused in the Mr. Jones lawsuit, as I mentioned, he has come

01:48:51.100 out and called the allegations against him false, adding that his lawyer will be handling this

01:48:55.300 going forward.

01:48:56.460 So there's a lot.

01:48:57.640 I don't know if there's a theme to today's show.

01:48:59.800 It's probably parenting, you know, and it goes by the same principle as terror.

01:49:04.960 If you see something, say something.

01:49:06.740 If somebody doesn't show up in school for a long time, if somebody shows up appearing

01:49:10.180 emaciated, if you see a kid who continues to get abandoned by his parents, say something.

01:49:15.640 Remember, we talked, you know, last week about the young man who was on Nickelodeon, a rising

01:49:21.820 star, Drake Bell, who got sexually abused by a Nickelodeon worker, the script coach, who

01:49:29.220 intentionally inserted himself in between the parent and the child.

01:49:33.100 The father had a good relationship with Drake.

01:49:35.560 This predator saw it, tried to alienate Drake from his dad successfully, got Drake away from

01:49:41.960 the dad and in the custody of the mother who wasn't as attentive and had been warned by 0.85

01:49:45.900 the dad to keep Drake away from this particular guy because the dad smelled a rat.

01:49:50.520 She didn't.

01:49:51.800 She was allowing overnights with a grown man who was 43 years old with her 15 year old boy.

01:49:56.000 And guess what happened?

01:49:57.700 Drake got assaulted repeatedly, sexually assaulted by this guy who wound up serving 18 months

01:50:01.700 in prison for what he pleaded guilty to with respect to Drake Bell.

01:50:05.460 A life was changed forever.

01:50:08.760 Parenting is not a part time job.

01:50:11.020 It's not something you can take your eye off for one minute.

01:50:15.180 And alone time between an adult and a young boy in particular coming of age, but girls too,

01:50:22.480 coming of age is dangerous. 0.98

01:50:25.440 You don't, you think, you know, somebody you don't know, you know, just ask all those

01:50:29.580 poor little altar boys who were abused.

01:50:32.260 You think, you know, somebody you don't know, you know, overnights are one thing when there

01:50:37.500 are other people present and your child has been prepared by you for what a dangerous touch

01:50:42.880 is and what to do.

01:50:43.740 God forbid something should happen.

01:50:45.140 I know it's hard to have these conversations with a kid because you got to scare the daylights

01:50:48.640 out of them, but they have to be made aware.

01:50:51.540 Otherwise, you see things like this happen, like at Nickelodeon and, you know, these other

01:50:56.440 stories that we're talking about, Ruby, Frankie, get involved, be a troublemaker.

01:51:00.640 So you lose a friend and Ruby, who cares?

01:51:03.220 You save a child, make a call, follow up.

01:51:05.540 Why didn't you?

01:51:06.580 What do you mean they weren't there?

01:51:08.180 Why aren't you ringing?

01:51:09.080 Go ring the doorbell.

01:51:10.120 You could do it.

01:51:11.340 It's less safe.

01:51:12.400 But if there's a child safety at issue, I would do it.

01:51:14.660 Anyway, it's just so frustrating to see the weakest and most vulnerable among us continuously

01:51:21.340 get underserved and indeed abandoned by those who should be protecting them.

01:51:26.700 So lots for the day.

01:51:28.440 Thank you, all of you, for listening today and every day and for watching.

01:51:31.940 We'll be back tomorrow with Glenn Greenwald.

01:51:36.600 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:51:38.560 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:51:44.660 Now streaming on Paramount+.

01:51:51.460 Someone is trying to frame us.

01:51:54.400 Until our names are cleared.

01:51:56.980 We're fugitives from Interpol.

01:51:58.780 Like Bonnie and Clyde with better snacks.

01:52:02.160 Espionage?

01:52:02.860 You're still as good a shot as you used to be?

01:52:05.860 Better.

01:52:06.660 Is there love language?

01:52:08.020 We like to walk that fine line between techno-thriller

01:52:10.680 and romantic comedy.

01:52:12.980 We make up our own rules.

01:52:15.240 NCIS Tony and Ziva.

01:52:16.980 Now streaming on Paramount+.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 02, 2024

Should Trump Judge Recuse Himself, and Disturbing Ruby Franke Details, with Arthur Aidala and Mark Eiglarsh ｜ Ep. 755

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