The Megyn Kelly Show - Solutions for a World in Disarray with Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.620 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.840 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.280 That dress?

00:00:21.060 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.760 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.720 Stop wondering.

00:00:26.980 Start winning.

00:00:27.920 Winners.

00:00:28.500 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.580 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.080 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.820 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.420 I'm excited for my guests today.

00:00:48.540 They are former professors, evolutionary biologists,

00:00:52.160 co-hosts of the very, very big podcast, Dark Horse,

00:00:55.480 and authors of the new book,

00:00:57.120 A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century.

00:01:00.000 We are going to talk about it all.

00:01:03.080 Sex, love, gender, damaging parenting styles, dangerous diets,

00:01:07.680 and why you need to get more sleep, and can you pay your sleep debt?

00:01:11.900 The news is not good.

00:01:13.240 Brett Weinstein joins me now, along with Heather Hayig, his wife, who I've never spoken to,

00:01:19.440 so I'm very excited to have you both here together.

00:01:21.940 Hey, guys.

00:01:23.120 We are so pleased to be here.

00:01:24.400 Thank you, Megan.

00:01:25.040 Very excited for this conversation.

00:01:26.520 Oh, I like the woodsy background, too.

00:01:28.740 Like the cabin, it's really, it's doing something for me.

00:01:32.460 All right.

00:01:32.660 Thank you.

00:01:33.220 People sometimes tell us it looks like a sauna, but it's cozy.

00:01:38.080 I think it's bringing me home.

00:01:39.680 I want to see like a little fireplace in the background,

00:01:41.880 and maybe we'll have a little cognac before the interview's over.

00:01:44.560 Okay, so can I just start with this, since you guys went through and people, I'm sure by this

00:01:50.180 point, know the story of what happened to you at Evergreen University and how you were basically

00:01:55.160 pushed out because you had the temerity to say maybe we shouldn't force students to skip

00:02:00.120 school in honor of certain race-based issues.

00:02:07.100 It's really hard to short form what happened to you, but Brett and I did a long podcast where

00:02:11.060 we got into it, and it's a very compelling story.

00:02:13.280 My point is, can we talk for a minute about Peter Boghossian?

00:02:16.580 I had him on the show yesterday.

00:02:18.320 He resigned from Portland State, not far from where Evergreen is, really.

00:02:23.420 And it's just such a shame.

00:02:25.340 You know, I just, I wonder, it must have brought something up in you guys because you two were

00:02:28.780 forced out.

00:02:29.300 You were, you know, liberal professors at a liberal university, effectively forced out

00:02:33.720 for not being woke enough.

00:02:36.060 Let me start with you, Heather, since you and I have yet to speak together.

00:02:39.260 Yeah.

00:02:39.500 Well, again, it's such a pleasure to talk with you, Megan.

00:02:41.360 And Pete is a friend, and we didn't actually know that this was in the offing exactly, but

00:02:48.280 he has been struggling with the PSU administration and the ideology there for years, as you are

00:02:56.140 well aware.

00:02:57.160 So, you know, the letter that he posted on Barry Weiss's Substack was telling.

00:03:02.580 That's, you know, the letter that he wrote to the administration detailing a little bit,

00:03:06.780 hardly all of what he endured, not just the kinds of, the ramifications of the ideology

00:03:14.520 itself, but the methods that people will stoop to, the lies and slander that are really

00:03:20.780 despicable, that people seem willing to stoop to because they think they're in the right,

00:03:25.740 is, you know, really telling of our times.

00:03:29.220 And it is, it also reveals how badly we need a functional higher ed system and how much we

00:03:35.740 don't have one at the moment.

00:03:37.140 I was thinking about it as we, Larry Elder was complaining, you know, today's the recall election

00:03:41.800 in California.

00:03:42.280 And he was like, okay, so a member of my team got assaulted.

00:03:48.140 A member of my team got shot with a BB gun.

00:03:52.080 A woman wearing a gorilla mask attacked Larry and threw an egg at him.

00:03:58.120 And he said so much for the intolerant left.

00:04:00.740 And that's what I was thinking when I listened to Pete yesterday talking about a bag of feces

00:04:05.040 being put outside of his office door.

00:04:07.200 He too was spat upon professors, colleagues pulling out the microphone wires when he had

00:04:13.560 people on campus, including you two, right?

00:04:16.380 Weren't we, now that I'm looking at you, it was you two and Christina Hoff Summers, right?

00:04:20.160 Uh, with the, uh, yeah, the, the moment when the AV was pulled was actually, uh, me and

00:04:27.140 Helen Pluckrose, who, along with James Lindsay, the, the three of them were the grievance studies

00:04:31.760 affair and James Damore.

00:04:33.620 So we were, it was the four of us on stage and Brett introduced us.

00:04:36.680 And I was actually making the outrageous claim at the moment that the, that the sound was

00:04:41.080 pulled, that men are taller than women.

00:04:44.440 And that was, you know, this, this is, yeah, exactly.

00:04:48.840 Uh, now that is both true and actually, um, not the full story.

00:04:53.900 It's actually worse than that, that, uh, it apparently that whole thing was, was timed.

00:04:58.980 It was staged.

00:04:59.740 It was yet more cosplaying.

00:05:01.460 And that suggests that, um, that many of these people are engaged what I, in what I've called

00:05:06.580 a kind of read only activism, that nothing that you can say to some of them can actually

00:05:12.280 even enter into their framework.

00:05:14.180 They already know what they know and they're already going to do what they do.

00:05:17.560 All right.

00:05:18.500 I've got to ask my dumb question.

00:05:20.080 What is cosplaying?

00:05:21.180 I see that word all the time.

00:05:22.320 I don't totally understand it.

00:05:24.500 Yeah.

00:05:24.680 I mean, I, I use it along with LARPing, right?

00:05:26.860 You know, costume playing, long action role-playing the idea that we are in fact, uh, on a stage,

00:05:32.820 you know, it's at some level, it harkens back to, you know, to Shakespeare, perhaps all

00:05:37.320 the world's a stage.

00:05:38.180 We are all in a performance and it suggests that you can therefore step outside of the

00:05:44.820 performance that you're engaging in.

00:05:46.340 Like this is not your real life.

00:05:48.060 And we're seeing, we're seeing a lot of that, of course.

00:05:50.940 Well, there, there is of course, uh, an honorable version of cosplay where people actually, uh,

00:05:55.980 create quite elaborate costumes and, you know, regenerate characters from their favorite superhero

00:06:03.500 narratives or, or whatever it might be, Star Trek.

00:06:06.220 And of course, there's a long history of people reenacting civil war battles and things

00:06:10.420 like this.

00:06:10.900 So.

00:06:11.160 And Ren Faire, right?

00:06:11.920 Renaissance Faire.

00:06:12.680 Right.

00:06:13.080 So it's not that it is inherently a bad phenomenon.

00:06:18.700 There's a secret there, Heather.

00:06:20.300 I want to know more about you.

00:06:21.840 Keep going, Brett.

00:06:23.540 Um, so I did want to say, um, a couple of things about, about Peter that I know are going

00:06:30.040 to get lost in his story that we have actually had the privilege.

00:06:33.500 Of not only participating in events that he, uh, hosted, uh, at his college, but also of

00:06:40.580 lecturing in his classroom.

00:06:43.040 And so we've seen his relationship with his students and he is exactly the kind of professor

00:06:48.760 that you want.

00:06:49.680 He cares, uh, at an extraordinary level.

00:06:52.660 He invests everything in teaching students how to think and not what to think.

00:06:58.080 And the idea that everything from, you know, a bag of feces to trumped up charges that resulted

00:07:05.280 in investigations, these, the, the use of every possible weapon to silence somebody who's saying

00:07:12.860 something that is obviously true is it is, it is a mechanism for generating a false appearance

00:07:20.240 of consensus, which then persuades people that something that isn't true is, and that's what

00:07:25.880 the attempt is here.

00:07:26.780 And having forced him out, they have succeeded in something, uh, which will harm us all.

00:07:32.420 Yeah.

00:07:32.600 As it turns out, Peter is a wonderful human being as well as being an excellent thinker and

00:07:38.300 professor, but he shouldn't need to be right.

00:07:41.040 You know, just, just like a rape victim shouldn't need to have led a perfect and honorable life

00:07:45.620 in advance of a horrible attack and that attack being actually, um, you know, having the attack

00:07:53.960 be revealed as what it is.

00:07:55.520 So too, should those of us who are seeing what is true in higher ed, not need to have been

00:08:01.720 paragons of, of perfection in order to have our stories heard.

00:08:05.600 In fact, you know, we, we, we know of some of these stories where people, you know, maybe

00:08:10.760 weren't terrific professors, maybe their scholarship wasn't as, as good as it might be.

00:08:14.780 And it's harder to get those stories heard.

00:08:17.180 Uh, and that is, that is conflating two things, right?

00:08:20.480 That you, you can be a canary in this particular coal mine and we need more of them.

00:08:25.720 And we should not force the standards to be that those people also have to be excellent

00:08:31.260 in every, um, areas of their lives.

00:08:33.360 As it turns out, Peter is.

00:08:34.900 You know, it reminds me, my dad was a college professor.

00:08:37.980 He, he died when I was only 15 of a sudden heart attack at age 45, but he, he was a college

00:08:43.280 professor, um, first at Syracuse university and then at the state university of New York

00:08:47.160 at Albany.

00:08:48.100 And he used to go into my public schools when I was enrolled year after year.

00:08:52.820 And he would say to the teachers, the same thing.

00:08:54.660 And it was his own philosophy too, which was, I don't really care exactly what you teach

00:08:59.600 my child.

00:09:00.520 Just don't destroy her love of learning.

00:09:02.880 And it, it just seems like that's, we've totally abandoned that, right?

00:09:07.060 That no one cares about the love of learning of these students on college campuses or K through

00:09:10.780 12, it's all about indoctrination.

00:09:14.140 Yeah, it's a, it's actually cryptically an attempt to destroy the capacity to learn.

00:09:19.060 And I think one of the things that we saw when Evergreen melted down was that our colleagues

00:09:26.040 became incapable of learning.

00:09:28.440 They could not see the lesson in front of them.

00:09:30.840 They could not understand that they were on the wrong track.

00:09:32.900 And so they kept doubling down on the same incorrect ideas and it resulted in the collapse

00:09:38.560 of the college.

00:09:39.300 So this is a, it's a cautionary tale and Peter's situation is the next chapter.

00:09:46.220 And while I'd love to say it's great to see, I think he'll wind up with a bigger microphone

00:09:50.960 in some way, shape or form.

00:09:52.360 You two certainly have.

00:09:53.480 And so, you know, we've been exposed to you two and your expertise in a way we wouldn't

00:09:57.360 otherwise have been, right?

00:09:58.600 Unless we wound up on Evergreen campus.

00:10:01.440 But it is such a loss because we do need to get to these college students before the indoctrination

00:10:06.080 is utterly and totally complete.

00:10:08.320 And the more we remove folks like you from those campuses and yes, give you a national

00:10:13.260 platform, which is, you know, has other benefits.

00:10:16.120 The more we lose the opportunity to get in while they get in good, especially on these

00:10:20.120 very liberal campuses.

00:10:22.160 That's, that's absolutely right.

00:10:23.580 You know, we need, everyone needs to have an openness about them with regard to being

00:10:29.000 receptive to new ideas and to things that might be true of the world, experiences that

00:10:33.920 they have not had, uh, that sound at first wrong to them, that sound like they run counter

00:10:40.320 to their worldview.

00:10:41.640 And, you know, it's true that psychologically, uh, used to be anyway, the liberals were imagined

00:10:49.440 to be, and were found to be higher on the openness scale and these, you know, psychological

00:10:54.040 measures, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the brand of, of, and I tend to call

00:11:00.320 it pseudo liberalism, um, that is, that is at least found on campuses.

00:11:03.740 And it's found in a lot of, a lot of the media now that this is, this is running exactly counter

00:11:09.280 to what, you know, what old school liberalism was about.

00:11:13.080 A hundred percent.

00:11:13.740 Yeah.

00:11:13.920 It's a liberalism.

00:11:15.020 All right.

00:11:15.460 So your book is not about wokeism.

00:11:18.000 Um, it's really about life and how we deal with the incredibly fast rate of change that

00:11:26.000 we happen to be seeing, you know, for whatever reason, I was born in 1970, you guys were born

00:11:30.840 somewhere around there.

00:11:31.780 And for whatever reason, we're all on this earth at this particular time together.

00:11:35.480 We don't know why the cosmos dictated it or somebody else or nobody.

00:11:39.560 Um, but here we are and you're, you seem to be positing that the rate of societal change

00:11:44.460 right now is, is dizzying and that our, I was quoting now, our brains, bodies, and social

00:11:50.500 systems are perpetually out of sync.

00:11:53.280 We are generating new problems at a new and accelerating rate, and it is making us sick.

00:11:59.240 So what, what was the point of writing a hunter gatherers guide to the 21st century evolution

00:12:05.960 and the challenges of modern life?

00:12:08.100 Well, we found over 15 years of teaching that the model that we used ourselves and we

00:12:16.440 talked to our students was actually very liberating.

00:12:20.200 It didn't solve every problem that we faced, but it simplified, uh, what it was to live

00:12:25.540 because you simply understood what you were built for and why that was at odds with the

00:12:29.760 world that you found yourself in.

00:12:31.720 Um, and so the, the recognition that the problem is not chaos, that it's actually definable and

00:12:38.840 that the various maladies we have are addressable by thinking your way through them, um, is, is

00:12:44.760 powerful.

00:12:45.280 And our students frankly, frequently asked us to provide a book like this so that they could

00:12:51.900 share what they were learning with people who weren't in the class because they felt it

00:12:56.460 changed their lives, but it was hard, hard to convey.

00:12:58.640 So like, what do you mean, what was the problem more specifically?

00:13:03.960 Well, if you think about what it is like to live, it is very confusing when you face the

00:13:10.260 question of how am I to deal with my love life?

00:13:14.100 Why am I chronically unable to fall asleep?

00:13:18.400 Why am I confronted with a desire to eat things that I'm told I shouldn't?

00:13:23.760 All of these things have a, uh, an underlying cause.

00:13:28.420 They are symptoms of a disease that we don't diagnose and recognizing what that disease

00:13:33.940 is, is actually the first step to figuring out how to minimize the harm that comes to

00:13:39.020 us from the mismatch between what we are built for and the world we live in.

00:13:43.200 Hmm.

00:13:43.900 Well, you, you go, yeah, go ahead, Heather.

00:13:46.140 Well, I would say authorities largely want to hand down very simple rubrics to us.

00:13:52.300 And it is, you know, it is famously true, both in COVID and from a long ways back that

00:13:58.620 the authoritative messaging as to what we should do with regard to say food.

00:14:04.360 Oh, definitely eat a low fat, high sugar diet.

00:14:07.020 That'll be good for you.

00:14:08.100 Oh no.

00:14:08.920 It turns out sugar is bad for you.

00:14:10.480 Well, um, it should have been obvious and it was to anyone thinking evolutionarily all

00:14:15.520 along that a high sugar diet, and that's not to say a high carb diet necessarily, but a

00:14:20.080 high sugar diet is not going to be good for you.

00:14:22.920 Some of that, some of that knowledge comes with, you know, further understanding of things

00:14:27.460 like the gut microbiome, but some of it comes with simply an evolutionary toolkit with which

00:14:32.380 to understand what we are.

00:14:33.580 And so what, what we were doing, you know, for ourselves in our own work with our students

00:14:38.620 was framing and understanding of what humans have been and what we can be so that instead

00:14:44.820 of trying to pick and choose things that you hear from authorities that you learn and that you

00:14:51.000 memorize, as opposed to memorizing rules, we want to build a framework by which you can assess

00:14:57.180 any new thing that comes your way and say, ah, that does make sense.

00:15:00.040 I'm going to incorporate that into my model and how I live, or no, that doesn't make sense.

00:15:04.820 And, uh, and therefore I can ignore it even though an authority is saying it.

00:15:09.660 Well, so just to get practical.

00:15:11.160 So if you take an evolutionary look at the way we eat, I mean, weren't we always told that,

00:15:16.840 that the sugar tastes good.

00:15:19.180 It's like one of those things that they, they, you know, our ancestors would try and say,

00:15:23.400 hmm, you know, I'm not in a dangerous place.

00:15:25.620 I'm in a good place and I can eat it.

00:15:27.140 Um, and so why isn't it more, why isn't it natural to have lots and lots of sugar and,

00:15:32.720 and also tons and tons of red meat all day, right?

00:15:35.520 If we're going to eat like our ancestors did.

00:15:37.620 Well, the problem isn't so much the sugar itself.

00:15:41.060 In fact, we are wired to seek it for a reason.

00:15:43.420 The problem is that we have figured out how to generate it in such abundance.

00:15:47.340 And because our ancestors never faced an abundance of such a substance, we don't have a circuit

00:15:53.840 that tells us when enough is enough effectively programming a creature to eat sugar when it's

00:15:58.240 available in a world where there isn't very much sugar is a fine modality.

00:16:02.600 But when you have that program and there's sugar sitting on the table, when you sit down

00:16:07.420 at the diner, you've got a problem.

00:16:09.380 That is a good point.

00:16:10.700 And it's also true that, um, you know, most of us, if we think about what humans used to

00:16:15.900 be, have this sort of romantic notion in our heads of hunter gatherers on the African

00:16:20.720 savanna.

00:16:21.840 And that is indeed what the title of the book alludes to.

00:16:24.840 And that, that is a piece of our history.

00:16:27.480 And, you know, some of us were in the paleolithic on the African savanna, some of us may be more

00:16:32.760 coastal.

00:16:33.180 There was even more variation at that moment in time than we imagine.

00:16:36.560 But part of the point of the book is that, uh, to use the term of art and evolution, that

00:16:41.980 was one of our environments of evolutionary adaptedness, but hardly the only one.

00:16:46.580 So we're also adapted to being alive from 3.5 billion years ago and to being animals and

00:16:52.580 to being fish and to being mammals and primates.

00:16:55.340 And within, within human evolution alone, uh, we are adapted yes to being hunter gatherers,

00:17:01.900 but also to being agriculturalists and to being post-industrialists.

00:17:05.220 And we've had less and less time in each of those states, but we are also adapted to each

00:17:10.500 of those states to, to varying degrees.

00:17:14.220 And again, the rate of change now is changing itself so rapidly that we can't help, but be

00:17:20.540 ever less well adapted to modernity as it changes out from.

00:17:24.620 Well, I mean, don't you, you know, don't you just have to look around America to see that,

00:17:28.040 right?

00:17:28.220 The, the obesity problem.

00:17:29.540 And it's not just, you know, a few pounds extra on your average American it's morbid

00:17:33.440 obesity on so many millions of people because we have seemed to have lost our ability to

00:17:39.700 regulate, to self-regulate the abundance of sugar everywhere, the abundance of processed

00:17:44.040 food everywhere.

00:17:44.540 And it's cheap.

00:17:45.560 So it's easy.

00:17:46.640 And then we live these lives that are overly stressed and overly depressed and food is the

00:17:52.520 soothing bomb.

00:17:53.160 But all of that seems to be playing into what you guys are saying.

00:17:56.500 Yes.

00:17:57.560 Obesity makes a good example because you can see it.

00:18:01.380 But the point that we are trying to make is that that same phenomenon happens in all sorts

00:18:06.180 of places that you can't see.

00:18:08.260 So our psychological ill health is of the same sort, but somebody walking by you who is suffering

00:18:16.540 from extreme anxiety and therefore heavily medicated and therefore suffering all of the consequences

00:18:22.700 that come from introducing these chemicals into their body is also sick.

00:18:28.740 And what one has to do is realize that for each of us, the sickness starts somewhere.

00:18:35.280 It starts mostly after you're born, you're born into a world.

00:18:39.580 And if that world was well tuned to you, then you would develop in a way that would not leave

00:18:45.780 you at odds with it.

00:18:47.660 So what that means is, for example, the first job of parents has to be to limit as much as

00:18:53.360 possible the novel influences whose consequences we don't know.

00:18:58.120 Many of the pathologies that we see, we treat symptomatically, but really what we should

00:19:02.940 be doing is looking at their cause and trying to exclude it from our children.

00:19:07.580 Absolutely.

00:19:08.060 That's what's so crazy about the way we live right now is, oh, I'm depressed.

00:19:13.000 I need a pill.

00:19:13.940 You know, I have anxiety.

00:19:14.960 I need a pill.

00:19:16.320 As opposed to, what is the cause of my depression and my anxiety or my child's?

00:19:23.380 Yeah, I know you guys spend some time on the devices and the algorithms that we shove our

00:19:28.200 children in front of and child pornography, not child pornography, but pornography consumed

00:19:33.740 by young children and how damaging it is.

00:19:36.400 Obviously, we need to keep our kids away from it.

00:19:38.520 But how?

00:19:39.280 How in a world that's ubiquitous with that stuff do we do that?

00:19:42.440 And how do we protect ourselves from these terrible influences on our mental and physical

00:19:47.820 well-being?

00:19:48.340 We're going to pick it up there when we come back in just one second.

00:19:51.500 Going to squeeze in a quick break.

00:19:53.100 And later in the show, my thoughts on the hypocrisy.

00:19:57.060 I'm I'm I'm genuinely ticked off about this of AOC, Bill de Blasio and the Hollywood elite

00:20:03.560 going completely unmasked and very close to one another at last night's Met Gala while

00:20:10.560 my kids and your kids probably are sitting in classrooms masked all day, including the

00:20:16.260 unvaccinated children.

00:20:17.720 We'll take that up in a minute.

00:20:24.860 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show, everyone.

00:20:26.840 Back with me now, Brett Weinstein and Heather Hayek, authors of the new book, A Hunter-Gatherer's

00:20:32.600 Guide to the 21st Century, out today.

00:20:36.100 All right.

00:20:36.300 Let's spend a minute on sleep because this is something it's like the never ending quest

00:20:40.760 to get enough.

00:20:42.220 And I know I know in the book you basically say that we're supposed to.

00:20:47.060 All right.

00:20:47.400 Let me get it.

00:20:48.140 Allow celestial bodies to set our sleep wake pattern.

00:20:53.020 And I read that and thought, do Brett and Heather have kids because, you know, they will

00:20:59.440 not allow the celestial bodies to dictate wake times and sleep times and really just life

00:21:05.740 doesn't allow it either.

00:21:07.460 Well, I wouldn't leap to that conclusion.

00:21:09.800 It happens that modern life does not facilitate this.

00:21:12.820 And, you know, we have occasional sleep issues in our house, too.

00:21:16.140 But I will say we have taken neither Heather or I had any direct experience with kids when

00:21:22.100 our kids were born.

00:21:23.820 And so we sort of bootstrapped some method for figuring out how to parent and wasn't

00:21:28.220 successful everywhere.

00:21:29.200 But we have treated them in a way that has restored these patterns.

00:21:34.980 And I think, Heather, correct me if I'm wrong.

00:21:36.780 I think one of our children has gotten out of bed after going, after putting themselves

00:21:44.080 to sleep once or twice in, I mean, they are now 15 and 17.

00:21:50.120 So we've gotten through childhood.

00:21:51.580 And there were not wild sleep problems.

00:21:54.220 Very early on, there were issues of how do you put the child down and do what needs to

00:22:00.520 be done to be a modern person without upsetting the child.

00:22:03.520 But by and large, we have tried to isolate them from artificial light after bed and the

00:22:10.940 run up to going to bed.

00:22:12.060 And it's been very effective.

00:22:13.560 And what do you mean by artificial light?

00:22:16.540 Do you just mean blue light like we're talking about on the screens or what?

00:22:19.800 Well, our family certainly operates on the model that certain spectra of light trigger

00:22:26.920 the mind to believe that it is daytime and that our light bulbs very often put that out.

00:22:31.380 So we've biased in the direction of warm light, which tends not to trigger these things.

00:22:35.740 And essentially, if you lean towards the spectrum of light that is put out by a fire, which is

00:22:42.760 something our ancestors have long history with after dark, it does not disrupt, whereas blue

00:22:47.140 light, as you point out, is disrupted.

00:22:49.600 So just to be clear, we reject a paleo vision of humanity.

00:22:54.780 We are not trying to restore an ancient way of living, but we are recognizing that there are

00:23:00.820 many ways in which how we have been is that which we are best adapted to.

00:23:06.760 So early on, like when the child is a tiny baby, really touching an adult who loves them

00:23:15.940 and who will care for them is the thing that will entrain their sleep patterns.

00:23:21.320 And I think the point about celestial bodies is the prospect for most moderns of actually

00:23:29.040 abiding by the sun's rising and setting, especially if you live far from the equator.

00:23:34.320 And so it's highly variable throughout the year is is laughable, right?

00:23:37.760 We're not actually going to do that.

00:23:39.040 That said, being able to actually get out, you know, even just for a few days into a place

00:23:46.080 where you actually find your body wanting to go to sleep as the sun is setting and rising

00:23:51.600 with the sun when it comes up will do wonders.

00:23:54.540 And, you know, we'll absolutely do wonders for your ability to continue on with a more

00:24:00.340 normal sleep pattern afterwards if your sleep was disrupted.

00:24:03.080 So, you know, finding finding the cycles in both your own body and the cycles that are being

00:24:09.600 entrained by the celestial bodies is a, you know, fantastic and free, right?

00:24:16.380 And, you know, easy to track.

00:24:18.680 It requires no memorization about, you know, what did he say?

00:24:21.800 What does the expert say?

00:24:23.100 It's like figure out how you're actually feeling.

00:24:26.480 And, you know, at some level, you know, let letting children sleep seems like both obvious

00:24:32.800 and absurdly simple advice.

00:24:35.400 And yet, of course, most school schedules don't allow for it.

00:24:38.420 I was going to say, I'd love to let my kids sleep in.

00:24:40.620 There's such a great feeling when you see your sleeping child, you know, he or she's getting

00:24:44.180 the rest they need.

00:24:45.160 But, of course, schools start so ridiculously early.

00:24:49.120 I feel like I'm still scarred from having to hit that 720 bell during my high school

00:24:54.720 years.

00:24:55.060 And I'll tell you a story.

00:24:56.260 So if you didn't make homeroom by 720, you would get basically a demerit.

00:25:01.660 You know, you'd get sort of a black ball.

00:25:04.280 And if you got a few of them, then you would get internal suspension.

00:25:09.380 And that is what I got.

00:25:10.860 And so I wound up with a mark on my permanent record because I could not make it.

00:25:15.360 It was too early.

00:25:16.400 I was exhausted all day.

00:25:17.820 And I am not alone because there was a recent study saying almost half the population suffers

00:25:22.380 from sleep related issues.

00:25:24.360 People who sleep 30 percent less than they need to for 10 days, they don't fully recover

00:25:30.280 their cognitive function even seven nights after recovery sleep.

00:25:34.220 So you can't pay sleep debt.

00:25:35.860 You know, if you screw it up, you can't get it back.

00:25:39.140 Previous research has found that people who are sleeping fewer than six hours a night for

00:25:42.580 two weeks in a row, they functioned as badly on cognitive and reflex tests as people who

00:25:47.800 were deprived of any sleep for two full nights.

00:25:52.180 And then here's the latest, Heather and Brett, you tell me if you've done this.

00:25:56.000 There's something just out in the news today called revenge bedtime procrastination.

00:26:00.940 Revenge bedtime.

00:26:01.860 And it's when you don't think you had enough me time during your day.

00:26:07.320 And so once you get your kids down and, you know, you've had your dinner and your husband

00:26:11.140 and you or your spouse, whatever, you're sitting there in bed, you don't turn off the lights

00:26:14.900 and go to sleep.

00:26:15.660 You waste your time on Insta or Facebook or watching Real Housewives or doing something

00:26:21.240 totally stupid, utterly mindless, maybe shopping online.

00:26:26.140 You're trying to create some me time because you're bitter that you don't have enough regulation

00:26:30.520 over your leisure time.

00:26:32.220 And they're saying that, too, is very damaging to your cognitive function and will wind up,

00:26:37.200 you know, costing you a car accident or something far worse than missing an hour on Twitter earlier

00:26:43.520 in the day.

00:26:44.680 So anyway, the solution to all this, according to two evolutionary biologists, is what?

00:26:50.160 If you can't wake up with the sun, you can't go to sleep with, you know, the sunset.

00:26:54.140 What are our other options?

00:26:55.420 Well, just to go back to some of what you were saying earlier, part of the problem is

00:27:01.120 that we humans love it when we hear numbers.

00:27:05.640 And much of the modern world grabs onto numbers, comes up with simple solutions that sound

00:27:11.480 quantitative, like you need eight hours of sleep a night or you need 1800 calories a day

00:27:17.020 to, you know, to not gain weight.

00:27:19.160 And these numbers have some truth in them for some people with limits.

00:27:25.020 But those numbers, once you have them, they seem like they're the only numbers that count.

00:27:29.260 This is, you know, this is the risk of having numbers.

00:27:32.440 And this is the risk of reductionism and pseudo-quantification.

00:27:36.280 So an evolutionary...

00:27:36.780 What does that mean?

00:27:37.640 What does reductionism as a pseudo-qualification mean?

00:27:39.880 What does that mean?

00:27:40.720 So reductionism refers to looking at a complex system and saying, what is the thing that I can

00:27:45.900 count, for instance, in it, and imagining that that thing that you've counted is the only

00:27:50.440 thing that matters about it.

00:27:51.740 So everyone has a sleep deficit.

00:27:53.940 If we could only get them to sleep for eight hours, then that would solve it.

00:27:57.460 Well, not necessarily, because among other things, if, you know, if you imagine that you

00:28:02.980 can just add up the sleep hours that you need in a week, and as long as you get that number

00:28:07.100 of hours every week, you're fine.

00:28:08.400 Well, no.

00:28:09.140 Some of the research you just related reveals that you can't actually do that.

00:28:12.780 You can't just lump numbers together and add them in a complex system like you would if

00:28:17.220 you were doing simple arithmetic.

00:28:18.740 Same thing with calories.

00:28:20.300 You know, a fat calorie and a carbohydrate calorie are not the same.

00:28:23.420 They don't interact in your body the same way.

00:28:25.720 It depends not only on whether it's, you know, what macronutrient it is, fat or carbohydrate,

00:28:30.020 but what else you're eating with it, how long it's been since you've eaten, how long before

00:28:33.700 you go to sleep or exercise, or how long it's been since you've slept or exercised.

00:28:37.380 So, you know, complex systems are just that, complex, and reducing them with things that

00:28:44.240 we can measure and count sounds scientific, but it's very often a kluge, a proxy that may

00:28:51.280 not actually be an accurate proxy for what things that we need to do.

00:28:53.300 I see.

00:28:53.600 So this goes back to what you were saying at the top, which was your students feeling

00:28:57.860 frustrated about, you know, I'm doing all the things I'm told to do, and why aren't

00:29:02.420 they working for my life?

00:29:03.600 Why aren't I thinner?

00:29:04.260 Why don't I feel more rested?

00:29:06.300 It's like, well, it doesn't actually work that way.

00:29:08.620 And I'll tell you, I've seen it just in my own life on sleep.

00:29:12.260 I do do intermittent fasting.

00:29:14.460 We did a whole show about it, and I think you guys like that.

00:29:18.540 But it's very hard to do intermittent fasting or any other sort of eating regulation if you

00:29:24.640 haven't had enough sleep.

00:29:26.740 They're so intertwined, right?

00:29:28.620 If you are sleep deprived, you eat.

00:29:31.180 I do.

00:29:31.820 I weigh overeat, much more than if I'm hungover.

00:29:35.200 If I'm sleep deprived, I'm going to break my good eating habits.

00:29:39.160 So I think you asked the question, what can you do?

00:29:42.220 And we can obviously point that question at any of the subtopics.

00:29:45.940 But the overarching point that we make in the book is that effectively disrupting what works

00:29:51.580 as little as possible is the objective.

00:29:54.060 And so there are sort of two tools that are a mirror image of each other.

00:29:58.060 There's the precautionary principle, which many people are familiar with, and Chesterton's

00:30:02.800 fence, which most will not be familiar with.

00:30:05.080 But it's effectively the inverse.

00:30:08.080 Chesterton's fence suggests that were two people walking down a road and were they to

00:30:13.180 encounter a fence that appeared to have no purpose and one proposes to remove it, the

00:30:17.520 other should say, not until you figure out why it was placed there can you remove it.

00:30:21.580 Because you don't know if it's still doing that job or if that job is irrelevant.

00:30:25.520 So when looking at something like sleep, one should try to figure out what does work.

00:30:31.880 The discovery that on a camping trip that you naturally feel like going to bed shortly

00:30:35.940 after the sun has gone down and you wake up easily with the sun is a clue, right?

00:30:40.660 That system still works in all of us.

00:30:42.500 It's just being thrown data that confuses it.

00:30:45.700 And creating these kinds of regular patterns in your life makes sense to the extent that you

00:30:51.420 can avoid chemicals that disrupt your body's capacity to figure out what time of day it

00:30:57.920 is or what mode it should be in.

00:31:00.500 That's a good idea to the extent that you have to use something to get to sleep using

00:31:04.500 something that is as minimally disruptive as possible.

00:31:08.280 Like melatonin is much likely is likely to be much better because it's a natural trigger

00:31:14.640 of neurological systems than something synthesized in a lab novelly.

00:31:20.260 And interestingly, we talk in the book about the patterns that children pick up when they

00:31:26.960 are learning what it's like to be a human and when to go to sleep.

00:31:31.240 And we talk about the question of whether or not there are signals in breast milk that may

00:31:37.760 allow a mother, you know, we tend to think of breast milk as food, but it's food plus a lot

00:31:42.860 of information.

00:31:43.940 And the mother may be sending information to the baby about what time it is.

00:31:47.940 It's time to start ratcheting down and heading towards sleep.

00:31:50.400 And if you've used a breast pump and not recorded the time of day that you pumped the breast milk

00:31:55.520 and you feed the child that milk at an arbitrary time, you may be sending chaotic messages.

00:32:01.220 So that's actually, yeah, that's actually a hypothesis that one of our students, Josie Jarvis,

00:32:07.400 proposed and did some research on, which, you know, we cite her in the book.

00:32:12.100 And it's remarkable.

00:32:13.540 So, you know, is the ability to pump breast milk a modern convenience that is super valuable

00:32:18.960 to many mothers?

00:32:20.000 Absolutely.

00:32:20.700 It was for me.

00:32:21.920 And I know it is for many, many people.

00:32:25.020 So it's, you know, we're not taking a regressive traditionalist approach and saying, you know,

00:32:30.120 the only way to do things is what was done in the past.

00:32:33.020 But as we introduce modern amenities to our lives, let us think about what systems we might

00:32:39.600 be disrupting and how to disrupt them as little as possible.

00:32:42.320 So, you know, in terms, in this one, you know, it just, it actually wouldn't take much

00:32:47.100 more to, if, you know, if you're in this position of being a mother to an infant and you're expressing

00:32:53.180 breast milk, don't just date stamp it, which, which we all do so that it doesn't, you know,

00:32:57.980 spend too much time in the freezer, but timestamp it too.

00:33:01.420 And, you know, give your baby milk expressed at the same time of day as when you're feeding.

00:33:05.960 Yeah, I like that.

00:33:07.060 I mean, what, what could it hurt?

00:33:08.260 A lot of this stuff is like, what, what could it hurt?

00:33:10.020 It's one step closer to how we used to live.

00:33:12.180 And there's no downside if you've got it in the freezer.

00:33:14.940 Janice Dean, my good friend from Fox, she was on the show yesterday and she and I had

00:33:18.760 our, we had our second babies within six weeks of one another.

00:33:22.380 And we had all this breast milk, mine and hers stored in our respective freezers when

00:33:28.180 super storm Sandy hit and both of our houses lost power and it was freezing.

00:33:34.640 Not you could, it was like, I don't care.

00:33:36.400 I'll put my kids in 45 sweaters, save the breast milk.

00:33:40.420 It was like, whatever has to be done.

00:33:43.020 It's liquid gold.

00:33:44.600 All right.

00:33:45.460 Next up, we're going to get into some highly controversial topics, like the difference between

00:33:49.700 men and women newsflash.

00:33:51.840 There are some, yeah, there, there are some, we're not the same.

00:33:54.840 And we're going to dive into this crazy MMA fight from last Friday where a trans woman

00:33:59.020 absolutely obliterated her female opponent.

00:34:03.040 It's raising a lot of eyebrows.

00:34:04.260 You'll see why we'll be right back.

00:34:12.080 Welcome back to the Megan Kelly show.

00:34:13.600 Everyone, we are joined today by co-hosts of the very popular dark horse podcast, Brett

00:34:18.900 Weinstein and Heather Hying.

00:34:21.020 Okay.

00:34:21.680 So back to the confused students.

00:34:23.980 Why, why, why is there an incongruity between how I feel and how everybody tells me I need

00:34:28.780 to behave to feel well because I'm doing it all and it's not happening.

00:34:32.380 And one of the things you guys dive into is gender.

00:34:35.840 You believe this is very controversial.

00:34:38.720 There really are differences between men and women.

00:34:41.880 You stand by that.

00:34:43.460 So we are, we are quite radical.

00:34:45.960 Let's make it as a hill, Diane.

00:34:47.140 Yes.

00:34:47.600 That's right.

00:34:48.080 Let's start at the 30,000 foot level and you walk us through some of those differences

00:34:52.920 based on evolutionary biology.

00:34:56.160 Yeah.

00:34:57.020 Um, well, a conservative view is that in our lineage, we have been sexually reproducing with

00:35:02.800 two and only two sexes for 500 million years.

00:35:05.340 Well, it's possible that that lineage of sexual reproduction goes back one to 2 billion years.

00:35:12.260 Um, but at the very least, at a minimum, it's 500 million years in our lineage alone.

00:35:17.640 So what is, what does that mean?

00:35:19.500 Uh, there are two sexes, uh, sexual reproduction has value.

00:35:23.360 Uh, we won't go into what the value is here, but it hasn't reversed in our lineage and, uh,

00:35:29.100 it involves two, you know, two gametes coming together, uh, to make a new, a new being.

00:35:35.160 And those two gametes have to do two things.

00:35:38.020 They have to bring together, not just the DNA, uh, from two different beings, half, half

00:35:43.460 from mom, half from dad, but they also have to bring the, the cytoplasm, the machinery

00:35:48.160 of the cell.

00:35:49.060 And they also have to find one another.

00:35:50.900 And so basically they divide the labor.

00:35:52.960 So one of the gametes, we call it the egg and we call the things that have eggs, females

00:35:57.620 brings the cytoplasm has this big bulky gamete that has all of the machinery of the cell.

00:36:03.320 And then that leaves the other job, uh, the finding generally to the other gamete, which

00:36:08.740 in animals is, uh, is sperm and in plants is pollen.

00:36:12.280 And we call those things that have those gametes males.

00:36:15.280 So that's ancient history, quite literally.

00:36:18.920 And what that sets in motion is a tendency because the egg has so much more stuff in it

00:36:25.500 than the sperm does to, to have an asymmetry in the investment of, of the partners of,

00:36:32.500 of the parents.

00:36:33.460 And so if only one parent is going to invest further in offspring, it will tend to be females.

00:36:39.880 This then gets into, you know, and, and, and none of this is new.

00:36:43.800 None of what I've just said is new or frankly controversial, uh, in evolutionary biology, uh,

00:36:49.160 where it gets more interesting is if, if gender is the behavioral manifestation of sex and sex

00:36:56.480 is binary, there are males and there are females.

00:36:59.400 Well, behavioral manifestation of sex or the software of sex, uh, is going to be, you know,

00:37:05.540 it's going to map onto sex pretty well, but it's going to be more, much more highly variable.

00:37:09.660 And then especially in us for humans who are more software than any other organisms on the planet.

00:37:16.620 The fact that we have a history of being mammals, where we have obligate maternal care in the form

00:37:23.560 of pregnancy and lactation and breastfeeding, that is true.

00:37:28.280 And that's not going to change.

00:37:29.660 And there have been some things, um, that have tended to follow from that with females being

00:37:34.760 more typically, um, domestic in other regards, but those things can change.

00:37:39.540 And those things are changing and there's nothing wrong with them changing as long as

00:37:43.500 you don't deny the underlying reality of the differences between the sexes.

00:37:48.020 Well, we definitely are doing that, Brett.

00:37:49.700 I mean, in today's day and age that we're being told that gender is 100% a social construct

00:37:54.300 and that there was just some article.

00:37:56.600 It was, I think a parenting article in, in slate, a woman wrote in and said, really struggling

00:38:01.800 with, you know, trying not to raise boys or girls, but trying to raise completely gender

00:38:07.240 neutral beings who then will just figure out for themselves, whether they're boys or

00:38:11.960 girls, you know, like help me and was, you know, shamed appropriately for, you know, what

00:38:15.900 are you saying?

00:38:16.360 Like, it shouldn't be hard.

00:38:17.440 Grow up, evolve.

00:38:18.860 Right.

00:38:19.540 Um, but that's, that's the current fancy is that it's gender is a hundred percent a social

00:38:24.540 construct.

00:38:25.860 Yeah.

00:38:26.380 It's nonsense and it's nonsense in several different ways.

00:38:29.800 One thing that has to be said is that we make the point very strongly in the book that just

00:38:35.240 because something is cultural does not take it out of the realm of evolutionary and adaptive

00:38:40.440 culture is just as adaptive as genes.

00:38:43.780 It is just as biological.

00:38:45.100 And so even noticing that certain things are transmitted culturally does not free you from,

00:38:50.600 uh, obligation to the evolutionary logic.

00:38:53.420 But the more subtle point I think is that the logic of male and female, as Heather points

00:39:02.340 out, are incredibly ancient and they are also incredibly consistent.

00:39:07.700 So if one looks at a, uh, plant, a flower that has both male and female parts, you can notice

00:39:14.860 that the female parts are much more reluctant about having sex with strangers than the male

00:39:20.580 parts.

00:39:20.960 That has nothing to do with, absolutely.

00:39:24.660 So the female parts will have a long, uh, uh, extension that forces the pollen grains to

00:39:31.500 grow down towards the ovules.

00:39:33.700 It's effectively a test.

00:39:34.880 It's like a long courtship.

00:39:36.760 How badly do you want it?

00:39:38.400 Right.

00:39:38.680 Exactly.

00:39:39.120 Whereas the pollen, the pollen doesn't care.

00:39:40.940 I mean, we all, the pollen's all over your, your car and your house and your life because

00:39:45.880 the males are effectively, they don't have any reason not to mate with any tree that will

00:39:50.840 have them.

00:39:51.180 Um, so that asymmetry is not about animals at all.

00:39:58.540 It's certainly not about humans.

00:40:00.200 It's about a strategic fact that, that arises every time you have these two different size

00:40:07.380 gametes as Heather points out.

00:40:08.840 And so that doesn't mean that we can't change the dynamics in humans.

00:40:12.520 And in fact, we are changing the dynamics in humans.

00:40:14.980 And in many ways, it's very positive.

00:40:17.120 I mean, the, the breast milk example is a great one.

00:40:20.380 Pumping breast milk means men can now, uh, we can democratize the work of feeding babies.

00:40:26.920 That's a good thing.

00:40:27.820 It doesn't mean you have to do it, but having the option is a good thing.

00:40:30.260 Um, so it's not that we can't change these things, but we are, it's not those who think

00:40:34.620 that this has something to do with recent human history and one group imposing its, uh,

00:40:40.100 its power on other groups and subjugating them.

00:40:42.980 And that that's where gender came from.

00:40:44.360 That's, that's nonsense.

00:40:45.200 It's way too ancient and consistent for that.

00:40:47.920 You know, it's annoying.

00:40:49.080 We, we did a story on Courtney Cox doing some story about two people who were together and

00:40:54.820 they had a baby and it was a trans man and a trans woman who wound up together.

00:40:57.820 So, you know, the one who was biologically male was presenting as female.

00:41:01.380 The one who was biologically female was presenting as male.

00:41:03.920 And the one who was biologically male is sitting there trying to breastfeed this baby that they

00:41:08.340 just had that, that the one who is biologically female, but presenting as male actually gave

00:41:14.080 birth to.

00:41:14.520 So it's a biological male sitting there going, I don't understand.

00:41:17.520 No milk has come out of my breast yet.

00:41:19.000 It's like, I got news for you, buddy.

00:41:21.540 I need to break it to you.

00:41:23.060 But some things are not going to change, uh, depending on your identity, but you guys

00:41:28.320 recognize, I think accurately, right?

00:41:30.860 That there, it goes beyond that.

00:41:32.140 It goes beyond the flower and the, you know, pollinating everywhere and say in the book

00:41:36.100 that women tend to be more altruistic, trusting and compliant, also more prone to depression

00:41:40.660 and anxiety disorders.

00:41:41.840 Men are more prone to being diagnosed with ADHD that men prefer working with things.

00:41:46.760 Women prefer working with people, you know, in some circles, that's not, you're not allowed

00:41:51.480 to say things like that.

00:41:52.800 That's what's one step away from what James Damore of, um, Google said that got him fired,

00:41:58.040 right?

00:41:58.280 These characteristics, I happen to agree you're a hundred percent right, but we're no longer

00:42:03.280 allowed to talk like that.

00:42:05.200 Yeah.

00:42:05.400 And, uh, I mean, this, this sort of circles back to, uh, where you started talking about

00:42:10.360 Peter Boghossian and, uh, you know, what, what he was facing at Portland state and what

00:42:14.780 all faculty really are facing who have a fundamental belief in underlying reality of the universe.

00:42:20.760 You know, we, we should all be able to talk to all range of people across all demographics

00:42:25.580 and the, the one kind of people who I find it very difficult to, to have a conversation

00:42:32.200 with is those who actually don't believe that there is an underlying reality.

00:42:36.320 And that's quite a, that's quite far from, from saying, you know, how close are we to getting

00:42:40.920 there?

00:42:41.460 What are the best ways to get there?

00:42:42.980 But is there an underlying reality?

00:42:45.140 Yes.

00:42:45.760 Yes.

00:42:46.000 In fact, there is.

00:42:46.960 So in the end, you know, this, this is the mistake of the extrapolated postmodernism we're

00:42:51.920 dealing with.

00:42:52.340 I was just going to say that.

00:42:53.280 So I didn't understand postmodernism until recently, but if you're a postmodernist, you're

00:42:57.840 one of those people.

00:42:58.640 You don't believe that there's a truth, a reality, everything's massageable and arguable.

00:43:04.520 Yeah.

00:43:04.780 And I think, you know, there's, there is a, there is a base value in some elements of

00:43:12.100 postmodernism, but the way that is instantiated on the, in the modern academy,

00:43:16.000 on modern campuses, and then, you know, crawling off campuses, speeding off campuses into the

00:43:21.440 media, for instance, in Hollywood, uh, is it's bad shit.

00:43:25.480 You know, it does, it doesn't make any sense.

00:43:27.420 And so, you know, you can be, for instance, you can be gender nonconforming as I was and

00:43:32.680 still have no confusion at all about whether or not you're a girl or a boy or a man.

00:43:37.720 Same, same Heather.

00:43:38.700 I'm the same as you.

00:43:39.800 When I was a kid, I look like a boy.

00:43:41.400 I acted like a boy in today's day and age.

00:43:44.200 They try to make me a boy, not my parents.

00:43:46.000 But society, and I'm all woman.

00:43:48.820 Right.

00:43:49.040 Exactly.

00:43:49.840 I think, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm grateful.

00:43:52.640 It sounds like you're grateful for the parents you had.

00:43:54.820 I'm grateful for the parents I had.

00:43:56.620 And especially had we been born 40 years later, my God, you know, that would have been a very

00:44:02.260 dangerous moment.

00:44:03.220 And it's, it is only those parents who see reality, who are able to protect their children.

00:44:08.680 But even that is becoming harder and harder.

00:44:11.220 Yeah, because we are so insistent that there's no difference to the point where we have, I

00:44:15.600 mentioned this in the tease, situations like this MMA fighter.

00:44:18.980 It made a lot of news yesterday.

00:44:20.940 Her name is Alana McLaughlin.

00:44:23.320 It's a biological man who transitioned to being a woman in 2010 at age 38.

00:44:28.860 So we are well past puberty and all the changes that come to the male body, thanks to testosterone

00:44:34.180 and so on.

00:44:35.880 Alana served as a man in the U.S. Army Special Forces and now is an MMA fighter in the Women's

00:44:43.200 League.

00:44:43.680 Fought somebody named Celine Provost.

00:44:45.380 It took Alana three minutes and 32 seconds into the second round to beat Celine in a

00:44:52.400 video that is disturbing to watch.

00:44:55.520 But we're told, fear not, because Alana McLaughlin passed all the medicals, including a hormone

00:44:59.740 panel issued by the Florida State Boxing Commission.

00:45:02.240 And therefore, we're not supposed to be upset when we see what is clearly somebody who who

00:45:05.920 was born a boy who lived 38 years as a man, absolutely eviscerate a biological female.

00:45:13.120 I think we have the tape if, you know, we'll take a look at it.

00:45:16.260 Find out as Provost comes out swinging as we expected.

00:45:20.440 Has one MMA fight inside for the pocket or go for the legs.

00:45:23.940 McLaughlin not looking like the stronger fighter and taking a ton of punishment coming in.

00:45:28.660 Getting pecked away there as they get in the clinch and this is where McLaughlin could

00:45:32.200 have an advantage.

00:45:33.180 Get this punishment, but big right from McLaughlin.

00:45:35.980 Second overhand.

00:45:37.200 Did not find it.

00:45:38.460 Protection there from Provost.

00:45:40.400 And the tap.

00:45:41.240 Alana McLaughlin victorious in her MMA debut.

00:45:47.720 I don't know.

00:45:49.400 I feel uncomfortable.

00:45:51.000 I want to be supportive of Alana, but I also feel really uncomfortable seeing that.

00:45:55.260 There's so much to say here.

00:45:57.320 You know, trans trans is real.

00:45:58.860 And there is a lot in the discussion around trans people and trans rights that is actually

00:46:04.020 complex and not totally clear, no matter how much truck you hold with reality.

00:46:10.860 But trans women in women's sports is the shallow end of the pool.

00:46:16.320 This is really easy.

00:46:17.680 This is really easy.

00:46:19.320 And part of the reason it's easy to say, actually, that's not okay.

00:46:23.440 That's not fair.

00:46:24.480 That marks the end of women's sports is because the idea that she passed hormone panels at whatever

00:46:31.280 age she is now, 48, I guess.

00:46:33.340 48, yeah.

00:46:34.000 Yeah.

00:46:34.480 That is absurd.

00:46:38.060 It's, again, taking a measure that we have.

00:46:40.560 Current levels of testosterone.

00:46:42.160 Do current levels of testosterone suggest things about current levels of strength?

00:46:46.020 Sure.

00:46:46.840 But are they the only things that indicate whether you have benefited from being male?

00:46:52.320 No, they're not.

00:46:53.040 Just to pick two other things, there are different kinds of effects of hormones.

00:46:58.680 And endocrinologists refer to activational versus organizational effects.

00:47:02.340 But basically, on or off, are you currently benefiting from testosterone?

00:47:06.260 That's just the activational effects.

00:47:08.360 It doesn't reflect all of the so-called organizational effects.

00:47:12.660 Yeah, like bone length and strength.

00:47:15.680 All right, I'm going to just stand you by quickly, Heather, because we're going to squeeze

00:47:17.960 in a quick break before the top of the hour.

00:47:19.900 But we're coming back with Heather and Brett.

00:47:21.480 We'll pick it up right here in just a few.

00:47:23.540 Don't go away.

00:47:27.900 We are joined today by Brett Weinstein and Heather Hying.

00:47:31.460 And we were discussing their new book, A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century.

00:47:35.880 All right, let's pick it up where we left it off, Heather, on the fact that your testosterone

00:47:40.040 levels may be the same as your opponent does not mean you don't have a physical advantage

00:47:44.300 if you've lived three decades as a man.

00:47:46.900 That's right, because of, among many other reasons, because of organizational effects

00:47:52.060 of the testosterone that were present during your time in utero and early development and

00:47:57.500 puberty, which will have shaped things like bone length, bone density, bone shape.

00:48:03.440 You know, female and male skeletons are different.

00:48:06.180 Women are adapted to have wide hips for childbearing.

00:48:10.640 And yes, that may sound conservative and all, but it is true.

00:48:14.260 And that means that we are less stable, for instance, just that one simple parameter.

00:48:18.560 It is also true, for instance, that the Y chromosome itself has masculinizing effects.

00:48:24.760 And that is not widely known, but the idea that we have the one thing, again, the one

00:48:29.640 thing, testosterone, as measurable right now, this is a failure of science.

00:48:35.060 And it's more like scientism that says, ah, we can measure the thing, therefore that's

00:48:40.840 all that matters.

00:48:41.900 And it just doesn't.

00:48:43.340 So, you know, I would say the number of mediocre male athletes who transition and become elite

00:48:50.940 female athletes tells us all we need to know.

00:48:53.640 It's so true.

00:48:55.120 It's so true.

00:48:56.140 I mean, of course, you know, in Connecticut, we had on a couple of the girls who got burned

00:49:00.800 by this, who are runners at the high school level, who were kicking butt.

00:49:04.680 And then the competitors who were biologically male, who ran as males the previous spring and

00:49:11.160 couldn't win anything, crossed over without taking any hormones, without doing anything

00:49:15.680 different.

00:49:16.500 And in the fall, started crushing the biological girls and the biological girls raised their

00:49:20.960 hands and said, well, this doesn't feel fair.

00:49:22.880 And then it was your bigots, your bigots.

00:49:25.160 And the poor girls are like, wait, am I?

00:49:27.320 I don't want to be bigoted.

00:49:28.380 I just kind of want it to be fair.

00:49:29.840 But can I expand it beyond that, Brett?

00:49:32.240 Because you guys are, I think, taking a fair look at beyond the physical advantages.

00:49:37.200 We are different and we seem to be unwilling in today's day and age to admit that.

00:49:44.140 I had a great talk with Abigail Schreier about it, how there's a there's a reason beyond

00:49:48.440 discrimination why you don't see tons of women in STEM.

00:49:51.480 It's not all about gender bias.

00:49:53.900 And yet what we're looking for now is just absolute parity.

00:49:57.620 We need to have absolute parity in every field and every college.

00:50:01.080 There was a report out today from the National Student Clearinghouse saying we're losing men

00:50:06.940 on college campuses like crazy that there's one point five million fewer students enrolled

00:50:11.880 in higher ed today than there were in 2016.

00:50:14.440 Men account for 71 percent of the decline.

00:50:17.940 Soon, two women will graduate for every man on college campuses.

00:50:21.580 This, as STEM fields say, we've got to have more women, they've committed to reaching

00:50:25.220 a target of 50-50 representation.

00:50:27.500 You've got just this increasingly lopsided approach to admissions, like more women, more

00:50:34.180 women.

00:50:34.560 I just don't think this is going to solve it.

00:50:36.440 I don't know that women have the same interest in all the STEM fields as men.

00:50:41.980 There's a question about what there is even to solve.

00:50:44.600 And as we get better and better at generating opportunity that really is available to a wider

00:50:51.200 range of people, our focus on small things, parameters that may not indicate anything

00:50:57.780 is actually off, right?

00:50:59.400 A basic difference between males and females in what they're interested in is not an indication

00:51:04.060 that anybody has been excluded from anything.

00:51:07.200 So there's a question about what all of this activism is.

00:51:11.520 Is it really targeted at problems that need solving?

00:51:14.900 Undoubtedly, some of it is.

00:51:16.040 But a large amount of it appears to be activism for its own sake.

00:51:20.720 And I would point out, you said you were born in 1970.

00:51:25.260 That happens to be the year that the song Lola by the Kinks rose to the top 10 in both the

00:51:32.560 UK and the US.

00:51:35.100 On behalf of my serious XM colleagues, I thank you for that bit of music history.

00:51:38.580 Keep going.

00:51:38.920 Well, I mean, it's important because if you've ever, I mean, we, you know, probably the three

00:51:44.380 of us all know the lyrics to that song.

00:51:47.980 He uses her pronouns.

00:51:50.540 He recognizes that she is, in fact, a man, but he is compassionate towards her.

00:51:56.320 In fact, he he you know, that's the way I want it to stay for my Lola.

00:52:01.760 And the point is, he is actually sympathetic to her cause.

00:52:06.140 This is I never realized it was telling a story like all I know is Lola, Lola, Lola,

00:52:10.640 Lola, Lola, Lola.

00:52:12.280 It's not like a lot of Lola, Lola, Lola.

00:52:14.640 Well, there is a story there.

00:52:16.220 The story is go back and beautiful woman comes up to him in some kind of a bar situation and

00:52:21.980 asks him to dance.

00:52:23.120 And she speaks like a man.

00:52:25.840 And in any case, the point is everybody got this.

00:52:30.100 This is a boomer phenomenon.

00:52:31.760 The boomers understood this.

00:52:33.800 And is it tough to be trans?

00:52:35.760 Undoubtedly.

00:52:36.740 But the point is, not only is the recognition that there was a problem to be solved at least

00:52:43.300 50 years old, but we've made progress since then.

00:52:47.380 The fact is, almost everybody is on board with the idea that you should effectively be

00:52:51.120 able to present as you wish within reason.

00:52:54.320 But there are places where that has to stop.

00:52:56.360 It does not allow a man to declare himself female and use that loophole to compete fairly

00:53:02.800 in women's sports.

00:53:03.920 It obviously can't be.

00:53:05.080 And there's an even worse case, which is the separate prison system for men and women.

00:53:10.400 Can you just simply can a sexual predator declare themselves female and go to a women's

00:53:15.600 prison?

00:53:15.880 This is obviously absurd.

00:53:17.400 And anybody who can't see it is either a fool or not telling the truth.

00:53:22.220 They can.

00:53:22.640 They can.

00:53:23.140 The answer to that question is absolutely they can do that.

00:53:25.580 And they are doing it in places like California, where last I looked, it was about a month

00:53:29.860 ago, not a single request for transfer had been denied from a biological male in a men's

00:53:36.360 prison who says, I'm trans.

00:53:38.340 And by the way, you don't have to have a history of being trans either.

00:53:42.720 You can suddenly come to Jesus in the prison and say, aha, I think I'm really a woman.

00:53:47.860 And they will transfer you.

00:53:50.100 Nothing's been denied yet.

00:53:51.180 And the women in the women's prisons are terrified.

00:53:53.720 They have to not only live amongst these people claiming to be female who may have a sexual

00:54:00.260 predator history.

00:54:01.120 They've got to be behind bars in a nine by 12 cell full time with said person.

00:54:08.420 No one seems to give a damn all in the name of wokeness, equity, what have you.

00:54:13.320 It's absurd.

00:54:14.500 And I've said this before, but every time at every turn, the women lose this debate at

00:54:18.160 every time, you know, whether it's running in a race at an MMA fight while sitting in a

00:54:22.940 prison, women who are there with their daughters in a locker room who say, I don't know, she's

00:54:27.260 a little young to see a penis come out of nowhere, you know, while we're in the women's

00:54:30.660 locker room.

00:54:31.240 They're not trying to be insensitive.

00:54:32.580 They're trying to ask for some sensitivity to biology.

00:54:36.360 And as you point out, millions of years of human history.

00:54:39.700 Yeah, it's societally sanctioned misogyny.

00:54:42.480 And so we're a year older than you, but we're basically we're all Gen Xers here.

00:54:47.760 And I don't know about you, but I'm going to guess, Megan, that you and I had similar

00:54:53.700 experiences growing up on opposite coasts of being girls who felt like the world was

00:54:58.480 our oyster.

00:54:59.060 We could do anything.

00:55:00.060 We were now allowed to consider doing anything that once had been the domain of men.

00:55:05.620 And that is not the same as imagining that we were men or we're going to become men or

00:55:11.060 that we're going to displace men, but just that the opportunities were now open.

00:55:14.820 And boy, are we going backwards.

00:55:15.960 Yeah, 100 percent.

00:55:18.220 I mean, it's it's crazy to me because at no point did I have any gender confusion whatsoever.

00:55:22.520 I enjoyed looking like a boy.

00:55:24.460 I enjoyed having boy hair and what really looked like a boy face and certainly boy fashion.

00:55:29.780 And all my toys were Incredible Hulk and, you know, superheroes.

00:55:34.800 My mom begged me to get a dress and a doll.

00:55:36.800 I was like, hell no.

00:55:38.180 Well, look at me now.

00:55:39.220 Right.

00:55:39.420 Like in today's day and age, they'd be sending me in it.

00:55:41.680 Go have a double mastectomy.

00:55:42.920 I mean, it's like we've lost our ever loving minds and the girls always suffer.

00:55:48.080 All right.

00:55:48.200 Let's talk about childhood because this is something I really wanted to get into.

00:55:51.300 I love what you write in the book about childhood.

00:55:54.280 Listen to this.

00:55:55.160 Here's a quote from the book.

00:55:56.520 We're stealing childhood from the young.

00:55:58.680 You say stealing childhood from the young by organizing and scheduling their play for them,

00:56:03.940 by keeping them from risk and exploration, by controlling and sedating them with screens

00:56:10.020 and algorithms and legal drugs practically guarantees that they will arrive at the age

00:56:15.140 of adulthood without being capable of being adults.

00:56:19.080 That explains so much about what we're discussing and what we're seeing on college campuses and

00:56:25.300 with individuals now who just they're not very good at adulting.

00:56:29.560 They do seem really quick to go to the drugs, go to the screens and don't seem to be able

00:56:33.900 to handle conflict or adversity at all.

00:56:40.380 That's right.

00:56:40.800 And, you know, it misunderstands what childhood is.

00:56:43.920 We have the longest childhoods of any organism on the planet, but other organisms have childhoods

00:56:49.500 too.

00:56:50.020 And the other organisms that have childhoods, other apes, elephants, dolphins, wolves, what

00:56:57.020 they're doing during that childhood is learning how to be their future selves, learning how

00:57:01.380 to be, you know, apes, dolphins, elephants, wolves, whatever it is.

00:57:05.220 And they do that through play.

00:57:07.080 They do that through exploration.

00:57:08.720 They don't do that by being protected from all risks.

00:57:12.620 So what do you get?

00:57:13.720 It's like, what, what do you maximize if you do the things that we lay out in what

00:57:18.640 you just read?

00:57:19.460 Well, you get as close to a guarantee as you can possibly imagine that your child will

00:57:24.560 survive to the age of 18.

00:57:27.060 What you do not get is an 18 year old who has any functionality in the world.

00:57:31.680 So you have to expose your child to risk.

00:57:34.120 You have to, you know, with every passing, you know, day, week, month, year, let them do

00:57:38.740 more and more, let them take more and more risk.

00:57:40.920 And tragedy may happen.

00:57:43.360 And, you know, every time I say that, I literally get visceral chills.

00:57:46.060 You know, we have been lucky.

00:57:48.780 I do not know how you go on if you do lose a child.

00:57:52.800 But it's a much greater societal level tragedy and frankly, an individual level tragedy as

00:57:58.780 well to simply survive, but be incapable of actually being a human being.

00:58:04.440 The extreme example of this, Brett, is Rose Kennedy and the Kennedy family.

00:58:10.160 And she she said something I think about all the time, which is better broken arm than a

00:58:15.920 broken spirit.

00:58:17.080 So we actually have rules in our household, which our children would have no trouble recounting,

00:58:24.080 which are you're allowed to break your arm or your leg.

00:58:27.640 You're not allowed to damage your eyes, your skull, your neck or your back.

00:58:32.360 And these aren't perfect rules.

00:58:34.360 But the basic point is we expect you to live in such a way that things are going to happen.

00:58:38.760 And, you know, when they do, our question is effectively, what did you learn?

00:58:45.960 And the point is our kids are going to be excellent at managing risk as adults because

00:58:51.120 they will have seen a lot.

00:58:52.360 They will have made their errors when those errors were relatively easy to recover from.

00:58:57.000 And that's what we should be doing for everybody.

00:58:59.420 And it is the exact opposite of what we are doing.

00:59:01.640 The conventional wisdom now is creating incredibly fragile adults, which, as you say, is what's

00:59:08.060 happening in college campuses.

00:59:09.220 It's why we're seeing that rebellion.

00:59:11.280 It's effectively a tantrum, a demand for others to solve the discomfort of life, which is a

00:59:19.420 very dangerous trend.

00:59:21.320 So I do a little speech on Stanford, Stanford campus once a year, usually.

00:59:27.080 And I actually said this past year something not controversial, which is words are not violence.

00:59:32.980 They're not.

00:59:33.760 And, you know, talk a lot about some of the words I've received.

00:59:36.440 And I'm fine.

00:59:37.280 I'm just fine.

00:59:37.700 And I actually perfectly sound healthy, probably stronger for having gone through it.

00:59:42.860 But you should have seen the reaction, you guys.

00:59:44.520 I mean, they were like, ah, what?

00:59:46.500 You're pro-bullying?

00:59:47.540 No.

00:59:48.100 But I mean, I might be pro-bullying a little bit.

00:59:51.160 Like, you know what I mean?

00:59:52.480 Just like a little bullying.

00:59:54.360 You know what I'm saying?

00:59:55.140 Yeah.

00:59:55.520 And, you know, like we don't we don't have to use that word.

00:59:57.900 I get why you would.

00:59:59.100 And, you know, maybe I agree exactly with you.

01:00:01.120 But pro letting kids figure it out for themselves, which sometimes is going to look like adults don't think it should.

01:00:07.980 And sometimes may even involve some physical stuff.

01:00:11.800 Yeah.

01:00:12.200 Yeah.

01:00:12.640 Yeah.

01:00:12.940 Because if you prevent children from doing any of that on their own, where exactly do you think they're going to learn it?

01:00:19.300 Like, do you think they wake up at their 18th birthday having been magically anointed by some, you know, by what?

01:00:24.700 Some fairy with all of the knowledge they're going to need?

01:00:27.300 You do this by experience.

01:00:29.420 This is not hardwired.

01:00:30.680 You know, we're not we're not moths.

01:00:33.220 You know, we have to learn how to be us.

01:00:35.140 And the ways that people are parenting now and that schools are educating are preventing humans from becoming humans.

01:00:43.000 Yeah.

01:00:43.400 I want to defend your pro-bullying point because it's easy to misunderstand it.

01:00:50.320 Right.

01:00:50.720 Bullying is not a good thing.

01:00:52.620 Skinning your knee is also not a good thing.

01:00:54.480 But being in favor of a world in which kids skin their knees is not the same thing as being in favor of abrasion.

01:01:01.520 Right.

01:01:01.800 The point is, it's about the things that guarantee abrasions will happen.

01:01:06.580 And what you don't want is adults who don't know how to deal with a bully, who cave in the face of a bully.

01:01:13.240 And we're seeing an epidemic of this kind of cowardice now precisely because we have over insulated children from the bullies that would teach them how to stand up.

01:01:23.060 Yeah.

01:01:23.160 It's it's like I used to be obsessed with Oprah, less so these days, but I used to be obsessed with her.

01:01:29.280 And she used to say and now I say to myself, whenever life throws some massive challenge at me, the first reaction is thank you, because it's an opportunity to grow, to build your superhero muscles.

01:01:40.340 There's there's only one way to get there.

01:01:42.200 And it is to go over those huge mountains, right?

01:01:44.980 Take them on one at a time.

01:01:46.260 And I do feel to some extent this way about my children.

01:01:49.040 When something negative happens in their life socially, it's a great opportunity to learn.

01:01:54.700 And I'd much rather your point, Heather, to have it while they're in my home.

01:01:59.980 My husband and I can speak to them about it and help them navigate it than just protect them from it and leave this nubile 18 year old out there at college to try to figure it out on his or her own.

01:02:12.220 Absolutely. And, you know, so Brett mentioned that we tend to ask our children after something has gone wrong.

01:02:18.460 What did you learn?

01:02:19.700 But we also ask them that when something almost goes wrong.

01:02:23.220 Right. And we talk in the book about the value of close calls, which is exactly the content of what we're discussing now.

01:02:28.700 But, you know, usually if someone has narrowly escaped an injury or a social faux pas, they want to move on and pulling them back to it and saying, hey, what did you learn?

01:02:39.700 We'll be met with disbelief at best.

01:02:42.760 But spending just a little time to figure out, OK, how could I how could I have done even better with that close call will help you move into the future with greater grace and skill.

01:02:53.780 And then, you know, the fewer of those conversations you have to have in the future.

01:02:57.520 Well, but one of the things that's annoying on a bigger level is how much abuse we're heaping on to our children and how we've settled on living in this constantly abusive way.

01:03:06.800 I mean, it's I went to this parenting seminar in New York City last year or the year before.

01:03:11.620 I don't know, within the past 18 months.

01:03:13.160 And all these kids are sitting up there from all these New York City private schools, very privileged schools.

01:03:18.080 And the kids, the one kid said, do you want to know why your kids are so fucked up?

01:03:22.040 I'll tell you why.

01:03:22.700 It's because you all think that they need to get perfect days so they can go to the perfect Ivy League college and they have to be in 10 different clubs and they have to play at least three sports.

01:03:30.540 And they're they're doing drugs on the weekend as an escape just to get their minds off of this hideous lifestyle.

01:03:37.720 Forget sleep.

01:03:38.640 Right.

01:03:38.860 Forget any deposits into wellness, going to sleep with the sun down and waking up with it.

01:03:43.340 No, no.

01:03:44.560 Right.

01:03:44.740 So it's like I was noticing there was an article just out yesterday in The New York Times talking about should students be allowed to miss school for mental health reasons?

01:03:52.460 And now more and more states are passing laws that will allow students to miss school to take care of their mental health.

01:03:58.500 You don't need a law for that.

01:03:59.460 We've been doing that since the 70s, at least, when my mom used to call up and say she doesn't feel well today.

01:04:03.600 She's not going in.

01:04:04.240 If you need a day, you take a day.

01:04:06.000 Why do we need laws for it?

01:04:07.100 But anyway.

01:04:07.460 If you need a day, you take a day.

01:04:09.460 But also the school should be set up so that the students don't need as many mental health days.

01:04:13.980 That's it.

01:04:14.640 The school should be better for the students in the first place.

01:04:16.600 That's it.

01:04:17.360 So what so what do we do about that?

01:04:20.400 The way we've agreed to live.

01:04:23.480 Well, again, back to the question of how one raises children.

01:04:29.360 We can speak best to the way we've raised our children and we can say in some sense what its consequence has been.

01:04:36.320 And we have been incredibly open with them about virtually every topic.

01:04:42.920 And in fact, we've been open with them about everything.

01:04:44.960 There were a couple topics we delayed slightly because we thought it would be confusing too early.

01:04:49.820 But sex, drugs, rock and roll, the whole shoot match.

01:04:53.820 We have talked to them about the reality of the world they are going into.

01:04:57.540 We've talked to them about the fact that they have not been provided the tools to navigate it and they will have to bootstrap those tools.

01:05:04.700 And that we are here to help them figure out how to do it.

01:05:08.020 But in fact, being told how to do it won't work.

01:05:10.500 One has to actually learn that process.

01:05:13.140 Right.

01:05:13.460 You can know how somebody climbs El Capitan without being able to climb a damn thing.

01:05:19.000 You have to you have to go climb yourself to learn how it's done.

01:05:22.460 And it has worked very well.

01:05:25.220 Our kids have their eyes wide open.

01:05:27.360 They do not have anxiety, even though, frankly, looking at the world they're entering, one could easily forgive them for for being terrified.

01:05:37.520 That's not their experience because they've grown up looking at it and it's not going to come as a shock to them when they emerge into that world.

01:05:44.920 And, you know, maybe what we've done is a prototype.

01:05:47.320 But I would recommend that people take something like this approach because you're not doing your kids any favors by insulating them from a world that will be as bad or worse when they get to it.

01:05:57.680 The big reveal at the end where they say, oh, my gosh, what what have you been hiding from me?

01:06:03.300 All right. Up next, we're going to talk about marriage and how society is changing as a result of declining marriage rates in our country.

01:06:10.740 Brett and Heather have some ideas on that.

01:06:12.500 We're going to discuss them next.

01:06:13.560 Plus, do you want to sound off about AOC, Bill de Blasio and all the Hollywood celebrities going unmasked at the Met while your kid has to sit there eight, nine hours a day with a mask on, even if he or she has been vaccinated?

01:06:28.060 I am so irritated about this in about 20 minutes.

01:06:31.380 I'm going to give you my take and I would love to hear from you.

01:06:34.680 Call us 833-44-M-E-G-Y-N.

01:06:38.740 That's 833-446-3496.

01:06:43.180 Welcome back, everyone, to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:06:49.740 Joining me today, Brett Weinstein and Heather Haying.

01:06:52.700 They have a new book out today.

01:06:55.100 Haying.

01:06:55.600 I keep messing it up, Heather.

01:06:57.040 It's called A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century, and we're diving into their possible solutions to a world in disarray.

01:07:04.780 Okay, so I just want to pick it up back where we left off before we move on to relationships on child rearing and read the following from your book.

01:07:13.160 If your child has been made totally safe, living a life with no risk, then you have done a terrible job of parenting.

01:07:19.780 Yes, love that.

01:07:20.860 Agreed.

01:07:21.200 Then you go on to say we should create new opportunities for engagement, for creation, for discovery, for activity that provides an alternative.

01:07:30.700 And this is where it took an unexpected turn for me that provides an alternative to the boredom that leads to addiction.

01:07:38.480 Did not see that coming.

01:07:41.020 I always thought addiction was the product of family history, trauma, right?

01:07:48.140 Bullying, excessive bullying, something like that.

01:07:50.300 I never tied it in my mind to boredom.

01:07:54.920 Love to have you expand on that.

01:07:56.800 Well, there are, of course, many factors which go into addiction, and it's multifactorial.

01:08:03.600 But one of them does appear to be boredom.

01:08:06.120 So there are, and we cite this study in the book, or one of them, there are some studies with rats,

01:08:12.800 which basically demonstrate that, sure, if you give rats, I think the study I'm thinking of is with methamphetamine.

01:08:20.020 If you give them methamphetamine and you give them nothing else to do, they use the methamphetamine and they become addicts.

01:08:25.980 Whereas if you give the same rats methamphetamine and you enrich their environment, you give them other things to do that rats like to do,

01:08:35.040 they are more likely to do the other things.

01:08:39.640 So the simple model of we are simply physiologically liable to become addicted if you expose us to certain drugs is, again, this reductionist, oversimplified view of what we are.

01:08:54.260 And it extends not just to humans but to rats.

01:08:56.160 So a life that is enriched because we have found meaning, because we know what it is that we're interested in doing in the world,

01:09:03.920 be it creating art or speaking truth or climbing mountains, whatever it is,

01:09:10.020 if you have something that you know you're seeking, you are less likely to become addicted,

01:09:14.200 even if exposed to the very same exogenous substances.

01:09:17.220 So you're doing your kid a favor in so many ways by helping them fill their life up

01:09:23.000 and letting them find ways of filling up their life.

01:09:26.160 But I noticed it even, you know, sometimes with adults, Brett, where the people who seem the smallest to me

01:09:32.960 in terms of their emotional wellness are people who are not busy enough.

01:09:37.240 You know, if I had a nickel for every time, I'm like, she needs to get busier.

01:09:41.200 Or even, frankly, a lot of these wokesters, I just, I always feel like they need more in their lives to worry about

01:09:46.840 because most people are out there doing real things, taking care of their families, working for a living, blah, blah, blah.

01:09:52.440 And they don't have time to worry about pronouns and a bunch of other nonsense and getting offended.

01:09:57.740 Yeah, not only do they need more in their lives, but they need experience that would tell them

01:10:03.900 what it is like to actually build something.

01:10:06.920 Because building something, if it's at all complex, will force you to balance competing concerns, for example.

01:10:14.420 It makes it very hard to be a utopian if you've actually had to make something work.

01:10:19.800 And so, in some sense, the place that I actually do feel sympathetic for this movement is that I do think they have been betrayed.

01:10:31.880 They have not been provided a world that educates them properly, that exposes them to things that would make them highly capable.

01:10:38.020 And so, in some sense, their anger is understandable, but their anger is so deeply misinformed about what a solution looks like that we have an obligation not to listen.

01:10:50.400 We actually have to address this in a way that might work rather than give in to demands that will cause disaster.

01:10:56.260 You know what I'm thinking of? I mentioned Abigail Schreier a minute ago.

01:11:00.560 In her book, she has a—it's a very useful prescription in case you see the sudden onset of gender dysphoria in your teenage child.

01:11:10.760 You know, it wasn't there before, and one day she comes home and says,

01:11:13.780 Oh, you know, I think I might be a boy.

01:11:15.040 And, you know, you have very good reason to suspect this is a social contagion and not actual gender dysphoria.

01:11:19.940 And you should read her book to find out what she says to do, because it's very helpful.

01:11:23.360 It's just, like, basically go for a—go on a six-month-to-year-long trip to Europe.

01:11:27.740 Log off of all devices. For the love of God, get her or him off of YouTube.

01:11:31.780 Anyway, I'm not doing her justice, but that's just my thumbnail.

01:11:35.620 But you guys should write the summary of what to do if you see wokeism in your child.

01:11:41.260 Right? Like, that's what you're talking about.

01:11:43.280 Like, get them busy. Give them challenges.

01:11:45.340 Have them weigh competing factors to try to make real-life decisions on complex matters.

01:11:52.060 I'm hearing it right now. It's like, well, maybe you did just write the book, but you didn't title it the right way.

01:11:58.240 Yeah. I mean, doing—you know, having your children—this holds for adults, too.

01:12:02.160 Engaging the physical world, as Brett just said.

01:12:04.420 You know, learning how to build or make or do something in the physical world where the results aren't negotiable.

01:12:10.300 You can't claim that you did it if you didn't.

01:12:13.100 You can't claim that you won if you didn't.

01:12:14.920 You either summited, or the cake is edible, or the eggplant grew, or the table is made.

01:12:22.200 You know, whatever it is, doing something that has a physical manifestation in the world will create strength and ability.

01:12:29.400 And then also, you know, travel, just as you just said.

01:12:32.440 And this has been a drumbeat of ours forever, and it's what we used to do with our undergraduate students and also with our own children,

01:12:39.540 is exposing people to ways of being, to places in the world that they have not heretofore imagined.

01:12:46.720 And they—especially if they had ideas about what it looked like because, you know, because they watched a lot of Disney or because they watched a lot of documentaries.

01:12:56.320 You know, no matter how good the information was that they thought they had about what being in Quito or Panama City or the Amazon Rainforest or Galapagos was going to be,

01:13:06.100 there's no—there's no replacement for being there.

01:13:09.040 So experience reveals your biases, and it reveals the holes in your thinking, and it informs you and enables you to become a much more complete and, frankly, compassionate human being.

01:13:20.520 And you grow in the process.

01:13:21.680 It's like—it nails so many different things.

01:13:23.900 It's like you as the grown-up grow.

01:13:25.860 You have bonding time with your children.

01:13:27.720 There's nothing that promotes bonding, like traveling together and navigating new circumstances.

01:13:31.940 But you gave me a little chill there with, like, the new people and finding out who you are.

01:13:35.800 Okay, let's talk about relationships because that's the foundation of children.

01:13:40.900 I think it's the foundation of happiness.

01:13:42.560 I think it's the reason we're here, right?

01:13:44.680 There are relationships, and in particular, our love relationships and our romantic relationships.

01:13:49.620 You know, before there were the little Brett and Heathers, there was the original Brett and Heather who found one another, managed to fall in love,

01:13:56.000 and navigate a successful relationship through this crazy, crazy world.

01:13:59.620 And one of the ways you posit one can do that and really should do that is via a monogamous relationship.

01:14:07.500 Oh, you said it.

01:14:09.660 Okay, when I was on NBC, we did a segment on throuples, okay, and then quads, people who are living in a relationship with three people or four people.

01:14:18.880 And it was fascinating.

01:14:20.220 It wasn't something I would endorse, but it was fascinating.

01:14:22.480 But you say that's probably not the route to happiness via—if you look at evolutionary history.

01:14:28.620 Yeah, the puzzle is a complex one because we can tell the fact that males and females in our species are different sizes tells us that there's a long history of at least mild polygyny in our species.

01:14:43.380 But it is also true—

01:14:44.360 Mild what?

01:14:45.680 Polygyny.

01:14:46.660 Well, what your listeners are more likely to understand is polygamy.

01:14:51.140 Okay, got it.

01:14:52.240 An individual male having multiple wives.

01:14:54.680 But it is also true that the later we go in human history, the more change has come to that system.

01:15:03.280 And effectively, our cultural software layer has overwritten what is in the ancestral genetic layer.

01:15:11.720 So most people alive today come from populations that are monogamous, and there's a reason for that, which is that monogamous cultures have certain advantages in an era of growth and expansion.

01:15:25.900 They bring all adults who are capable of contributing to child rearing into that process, and that makes for—it increases the rate at which a population can capture a landmass or a resource, and it also makes for a fairer, safer, more productive society.

01:15:44.420 It distributes opportunity more evenly, it makes people less warlike, it makes people more prone to cooperation, and these are all major advantages.

01:15:53.760 And that's before you ever get to the question of personal satisfaction.

01:15:58.740 And I think something you alluded to in your initial comment is that there is something indescribably important about having that one person in your life who you absolutely bond with.

01:16:13.100 You have an understanding of who they are, and they have an understanding of who you are in a way that no one can match.

01:16:19.740 And they're capable of providing a reality check and just simply being non-negotiably there.

01:16:28.280 It's hard to describe this to people who haven't yet experienced it.

01:16:31.780 It's hard to give them a sense for why it is so different from having maybe casual relationships with more people or bonds with more people involved.

01:16:41.420 But there really is no substitute, and if there's one thing I would wish for younger people that would upgrade the quality of their lives and make them more secure and more capable,

01:16:53.460 it would be that they find a person with whom they can build such a relationship and build it.

01:17:00.460 So let me ask you this.

01:17:01.240 This is probably a sexist question.

01:17:03.140 And I don't know, what does evolution tell us on that front?

01:17:33.140 We, in fact, know that we are not built to be symmetrical in this way.

01:17:38.860 We are built to be complementary.

01:17:40.860 So it's a yin-yang relationship, not a simple symmetrical or identity relationship.

01:17:47.560 And the fact is, this goes back to the issue we were discussing earlier with the flower parts showing the same kind of difference in perspective as humans or any other animal will.

01:17:59.300 There is a lot to be lost to women if they reproduce without first establishing the willingness of a partner to invest in participating and raising that child.

01:18:12.300 Children and human children are extremely expensive to raise, and they are much better raised by a team.

01:18:17.400 So that is the reason that women are wired to be very reluctant about behavior that could saddle them with a child and no help in raising it.

01:18:28.180 And that creates the dynamics that we all know exist.

01:18:33.500 Wishing them away does not cause them to go away.

01:18:35.700 But I guess the last thing I would say is what people don't realize is that, yes, men do men are wired to be ever aware of the possibility of sex without commitment.

01:18:48.920 That is an ancient pattern, but it is not the only thing that men are wired for.

01:18:54.880 Men, because the way most men have reproduced in history is through investing in a particular woman and her offspring, that that pattern causes them to be choosy and careful in a very symmetrical way to the way women behave generally.

01:19:12.200 I like that.

01:19:42.200 Respect and used it to renegotiate our relationships in the mode where males and females are both very careful.

01:19:50.280 I love that.

01:19:51.440 I will share a personal story with you on that on your point, your your penultimate point there.

01:19:56.140 When my husband and I were first getting together, I mean, it was a suitable time into the relationship.

01:20:00.720 I'll just leave it at that.

01:20:01.680 And we had we had a night together.

01:20:04.060 I was sitting there looking at him the next morning and he looked so great with his hair all messed up in his white T-shirt and his jeans.

01:20:12.300 And he looked at me and said, by the way, if you don't want children, you should tell me soon.

01:20:19.300 And I was like, oh, I mean, ladies, you can feel my heart swooning.

01:20:24.380 Right.

01:20:24.520 It was like I was in love with him from that minute forward because he was expressing exactly what you're saying, Brett.

01:20:32.580 He was this evolved, incredibly great guy who was putting it on the table saying, yeah, I'm I want you and I want to build a family with you.

01:20:41.720 And if that's not your goal, if you're somebody who just wants to be the career woman, I say on Fox News, that's actually not for me.

01:20:49.500 There are men like that out there.

01:20:51.040 I think, Heather, sometimes we convince ourselves they don't exist.

01:20:54.540 Yeah.

01:20:54.880 I mean, to your anecdote, I've got one.

01:20:57.240 It's not as personal.

01:20:58.260 But Bob Trivers, who is an extraordinary evolutionary biologist and was our undergraduate advisor.

01:21:05.580 And excuse me, we asked him if he would be the gosh, what's the word for the officiant at our wedding.

01:21:13.860 And so he came up into the Sierra Nevada and officiated at our wedding.

01:21:17.480 We've been together for many years and Bob knew us.

01:21:20.460 Dr. Trivers knew us as undergrads and as burgeoning evolutionary biologists.

01:21:24.780 And so he agreed to do this wedding ceremony for us in the in the mountains.

01:21:29.520 But he insisted the day before on basically interviewing us as clergy might have.

01:21:33.880 And one of the only question I remember that he asked us was, do you intend to have children?

01:21:40.820 And it became very clear that if we had said no, he was going to have a harder time knowing what to say about us, even though he respected our brains greatly and us as friends.

01:21:53.100 But but for him, that was a key part of what the marriage ceremony was about.

01:21:58.400 Wow.

01:21:59.120 Wow.

01:21:59.520 You know what?

01:22:00.880 So how how has it gotten so turned on its head?

01:22:03.900 We mentioned birth control and sort of women's liberation, which we've talked about the benefits, I'm sure.

01:22:09.280 But how has everything gotten so weird where now promiscuity is somehow a sign of your fierceness?

01:22:16.740 And I know I said this yesterday.

01:22:19.280 I feel like typical.

01:22:20.040 I really feel uncomfortable saying this stuff, but I have to be honest because I know I speak for a lot of people.

01:22:24.740 I'm uncomfortable with the the asses everywhere, the Kardashian body.

01:22:29.640 It's like it's so in your face.

01:22:31.080 It's there's nothing left to the imagination.

01:22:33.320 It just feels vulgar to me.

01:22:35.920 I don't know.

01:22:36.620 I feel like our sexual relationships are in our love relationships have gotten really confused.

01:22:42.380 They absolutely have.

01:22:43.860 And I think one of the things that we argue is that there's been a takeover of language, which is part of what's confusing people.

01:22:51.320 So the idea that asses everywhere, as you say, Megan, is about some sort of sex positivity.

01:22:58.040 Sorry, I actually think it's quite the opposite.

01:23:00.160 That's sex negativity that is treating sex like it's nothing.

01:23:04.100 And, you know, just as we all know that junk food is bad for us, junk sex is bad for us, too.

01:23:09.680 And you can be wildly enthusiastic about sex and know that it's amazing and know what enriching and passionate experience it brings.

01:23:19.980 And still not want to engage and rather explicitly not want to engage in cheap, junk sex everywhere.

01:23:30.280 Right.

01:23:30.880 And we don't see that message anywhere near as much.

01:23:33.580 It was like, you know, back in the 50s, you'd be totally shamed if you wanted to have premarital sex.

01:23:37.480 And then like everything, we totally overcorrected to where now somehow you're you're fierce.

01:23:42.480 Again, to use that word, if you've lost count of your partners and you're living in a thruple and monogamy is a joke to you.

01:23:49.980 And by the way, so is gender.

01:23:51.280 And I was like, I would I feel for these 20 year olds.

01:23:54.840 Bretton is the mother of three young kids.

01:23:56.380 I feel for them, too.

01:23:57.120 I'm really hoping and praying that by the time they get to college and, you know, six to eight years, it's all going to be solved.

01:24:04.500 Now, they have a serious problem that I think many of them are just not aware of.

01:24:09.700 Right. Because they don't understand that there is some sort of alternative to the world they've been handed, but they need to discover it and figure out how how to make it work.

01:24:19.800 And this is not simple because.

01:24:21.920 Let's say, for example, that you correctly understand that there's something wrong with these new sophistications and that it doesn't result in sexual satisfaction for anyone, as far as I can tell.

01:24:34.640 Well, so you decide you're going to not do that.

01:24:38.700 Well, suddenly you're in competition for attention with all sorts of people who haven't decided that and you're I don't know that phones ring anymore so much, but your phone's not going to ring if that's what they do.

01:24:50.040 And so it's going to seem like you've made an error when, in fact, one needs to recognize, you know, if we go back to the idea that men have two different ways of reproducing and one involves no commitment.

01:25:03.360 If you are trying to compete for attention and you get attention of men by behaving in this incredibly provocative way, it works, but it's not the right kind of attention because men are wired to view women who behave that way differently than they view women who behave in a choosy way.

01:25:23.480 And so the way to do this, if you are a young person and you're trying to figure out how to navigate this part of your life, I think the thing to shoot for is a culture in which people who get it opt out of these false sophistications and begin to generate some new set of rules about how they will behave towards each other.

01:25:43.580 And you know what? It's not going to be as exciting on a nightly basis, but will it result in you being satisfied years down the road? The chances are much, much greater.

01:25:53.480 Okay. But I'll challenge you on that. I actually think it is more satisfying on a nightly basis because the chase is fun and, you know, extending the chase. Doug is still chasing me. We've been married for 15 years. You know, he's still on steady, on steady ground.

01:26:07.760 I agree. I said it wouldn't be as exciting, but I didn't say it wouldn't be as satisfying. I agree with you that all wisdom is very closely related to delayed gratification. And so the point is the sex you ultimately have at the end of that chase is a whole different sport.

01:26:24.040 Yes. And you also point out in the book, the difference between hotness and beauty. And I thought that was a great point too.

01:26:31.640 It's hard to spot. And it's especially hard to spot because some women have both, which is confusing. But I think the thing that reveals this is that it is possible to be hot and not at all beautiful. It's possible even to be hot and be ugly. This is something we see fairly regularly and we don't realize it because we assume they are closely related. But in fact, they're completely separable.

01:26:57.260 And what we argue in the book is that hotness tends to be associated with appealing to that less interesting short-term male strategy. And beauty, which fades much more slowly, tends to be about appealing to that longer-term male strategy that is a mirror for the longer-term female strategy.

01:27:17.140 So of course, Doug should still be chasing you. And you should also still be chasing him. One of the things about monogamy is that it's not just male-male competition and female choice. It's also female-female competition, and let's be good about it, and male choice.

01:27:34.080 And so we've got choice by both partners and not ever sinking into the sense of, well, this is what I've got and I'll have it forever, and I guess I don't have to work at it anymore. We should always be working at it and always excited by it as well.

01:27:52.100 I said to my one friend, she was annoyed with her husband. They hadn't been connecting in a while. And she was talking about how he was putting up these shelves and he wasn't doing it the way she liked it. And I said, and this is a very good-looking guy. And I said, why don't you just ask him if he can do it with his shirt off? Just watch him. Just watch him. He's so good-looking. It's going to light a fire. You're not going to give a damn that he chose silver instead of white or whatever it was. There's some evolution in that too.

01:28:16.480 You two are amazing. Well, this was so fun. I love the book. I love everything you stand for, and I hope you'll come back. Good luck with all of it.

01:28:27.160 Thanks so much. It was a pleasure.

01:28:28.540 Thank you so much, Megan. It's been a pleasure.

01:28:29.660 All the best. Okay, so up next, we're going to share my thoughts on all the Hollywood and political elites hanging out last night unmasked. You saw AOC? Unmasked in her tax-the-rich dress, not socially distanced,

01:28:44.700 while my kids and yours are sitting in school and can't even speak at lunch. Okay? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that,

01:28:52.840 on some of that discussion we had about everything hanging out, the Kardashians and so on. It's a lot.

01:28:59.720 What do you think? Force for good? Phone lines are open. Call me at 833-44-MEGAN.

01:29:04.960 4-4, like the Syracuse 44. It was a shout-out to my alma mater.

01:29:07.840 4-4-MEGAN, M-E-G-Y-N. That's 833-446-3496.

01:29:19.400 Welcome back, everyone, to The Megyn Kelly Show. We're taking your calls at 833-44-MEGAN.

01:29:24.060 4-4-M-E-G-Y-N. That's 833-446-3496.

01:29:28.940 I want to take a minute to share my thoughts on the Met Gala last night.

01:29:32.220 It's this very Tony affair in New York that Anna Wintour puts on. I'm over Anna Wintour. She needs

01:29:38.200 to go away. The Devil Wears Prada needs to go right out the door. Why are we still allowing this

01:29:42.340 woman to hold this event $35,000 ahead after all the abuse she's heaped on employees over there?

01:29:48.180 We still allow society to pretend she's somebody we want to idolize, we want to live up to? No,

01:29:54.240 she's a bully. She's a bully, and she's in particular a bully toward anybody who's not

01:29:58.560 an open and declared liberal Democrat. Anyway, she hosts this thing every year and all these

01:30:03.400 stars go, and last night it was a parade of hypocrites. AOC, again, a dinner that costs $35,000

01:30:10.560 a head, shows up in a dress that reads tax the rich. Oh, by the way, she drives a Tesla. Okay,

01:30:15.680 so please pardon me if you look a little hypocritical to me, hobnobbing with the billionaires,

01:30:22.180 buttering up to them while you're saying, oh, but I said tax the rich because I'm trying to call

01:30:25.880 attention to it. Oh, bull. Then don't go. If you really have a problem with the tax system,

01:30:30.660 with the billionaires, and they're not paying their fair share, then don't go there and lick

01:30:34.160 their boots, which I'm sure is exactly what happened. And the worst of it was no mask right

01:30:40.880 on top of other people. AOC, Bill de Blasio, Carolyn Maloney, a congresswoman from the Upper West

01:30:46.100 Side. These people are the ones who imposed mandatory masks on my kids and yours. If you live in New York

01:30:52.220 City, New York State has mandatory masks for kids, K-12. So does Connecticut, K-12. Mandatory masks,

01:30:58.500 even if they're vaccinated. Okay? So kids like mine are sitting in class all day long,

01:31:03.380 eight to nine hours with masks on because of politicians like this, even the older ones who

01:31:08.000 have gotten vaccinated have to have masks on. But she can show up. AOC can be there. Mayor de Blasio can

01:31:14.020 be there. Yes, they're vaccinated without their masks. Hobnobbing, rubbing elbows, sitting at dinner

01:31:19.440 tables, chatting it up all night long. You know what the New York City kids have to do? They have

01:31:22.600 to sit outside, have their lunches six feet apart while they sit on the ground. Okay? They have to

01:31:27.520 wear masks outside if they're not six feet apart in New York, even if they are six feet apart. That's

01:31:32.640 how the kids are living. But these people can go to the Met Gala and live it up large because it makes

01:31:37.700 them feel good about themselves. I'm so mad. I hate listening to these people. I wonder when people are

01:31:43.720 going to rise up and say enough is enough. I don't know about you, but I'm there. Okay. I want to get

01:31:49.080 you some phone calls in because I can see the lines are lighting up right now. Okay. Let's start with,

01:31:55.980 oh, here's somebody. It looks like Niall in California talking about the celebrities and

01:32:01.520 the masks. Hey, Niall. Hi, Nevin. What do you think? Well, what do you think about these maskless

01:32:10.180 celebrities who are trying to change life for you and me and our kids? Well, you have to remember,

01:32:14.920 Megan, they're ethically, morally, intelligently more superior than you. So the virus knows not to

01:32:22.660 hurt them. Right. But you and I, if we walk into Target, we could possibly die. That's exactly right.

01:32:29.160 And if you go to a BLM protest or a Ruth Bader Ginsburg morning or Joe Biden celebration,

01:32:33.280 you don't get COVID. Yeah. But if I go to the Raider game, I might die. That's right.

01:32:39.520 It's the Raider game. That's right. Because it's all about, you know, it's about being good enough

01:32:45.920 for me, but not for me, you know? That's exactly it. It's infuriating.

01:32:49.840 You have to eat ice cream. And yet there isn't, there isn't the massive protests. There aren't the

01:32:56.060 massive protests in the streets that we've seen in places like France. And I do wonder why not,

01:33:01.320 right? Like why, why not? Let's talk about the last segment. We've got Will in Pennsylvania

01:33:06.860 and he was listening to our discussion with Brett and Heather on marriage and sexuality and so on.

01:33:11.600 What'd you think, Will? Well, I enjoyed it. I got to listen to a good last 30 minutes of it. And I

01:33:17.440 always wanted to say too, I always love hearing the stories about you and Doug. I'm someone who's

01:33:22.460 married 21 years and I just love my wife so dearly. And I sometimes even have cried when I heard you tell

01:33:28.720 your stories. And I'm actually, wow, it's an honor to talk to you. And, uh, the thought for thought was

01:33:34.200 like, you know, when you got that kind of love and it's so good, it's almost, there's this weird thing

01:33:38.600 where when other people are, you know, are cheating on each other, you want to almost like sound the

01:33:43.200 whistle and tell the partner. And then that's a, that's a weird thing, you know, like, I want to

01:33:49.840 grab those people and say, life can be so much different. You know, if you commit to the person you're

01:33:54.660 with, if you look at them through the most generous lens, if you give of yourself and not

01:33:58.660 just expect to receive things can be so much better. And when you've got a relationship that

01:34:03.660 works, you can take on anything. You can take online bullying. You can take social media. You

01:34:08.060 can take all this crass behavior in the news and say, I'm good. You want to see the show,

01:34:14.060 go to youtube.com slash Megan Kelly because we're posting it every day and check out our COVID show

01:34:19.340 from last week. Cause it's in fuego. All right. We'll talk tomorrow. See you then.

01:34:24.660 Bye.

The Megyn Kelly Show - September 14, 2021

Solutions for a World in Disarray with Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying ｜ Ep. 159

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