The Megyn Kelly Show - Taking Risks, Time Management, and Leading a Productive Life, with Oliver Burkeman ｜ Ep. 285

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans. 1.00

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.620 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.840 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.280 That dress?

00:00:21.060 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.760 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.720 Stop wondering.

00:00:26.980 Start winning.

00:00:27.920 Winners.

00:00:28.500 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.580 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.100 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.840 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.460 Three words.

00:00:47.240 4,000 weeks.

00:00:50.960 If you are lucky, that's your average lifespan.

00:00:55.700 When we put it into those terms,

00:00:57.560 life feels pretty short,

00:00:59.660 pretty time-limited.

00:01:01.160 So how are you spending those precious weeks?

00:01:04.980 Are you using your time wisely?

00:01:08.640 Journalist and author of 4,000 Weeks,

00:01:11.980 Time Management for Mortals,

00:01:14.560 Oliver Berkman joins us today to advise

00:01:17.220 on how to make the most of our finite time

00:01:21.180 on this planet.

00:01:22.940 It seems like a good use of our time right now.

00:01:25.640 Welcome, Oliver.

00:01:26.320 Good to have you.

00:01:27.280 Thanks so much for inviting me.

00:01:29.000 All right.

00:01:29.460 So I have to tell you,

00:01:30.740 in reading your book,

00:01:31.640 I laughed because I thought,

00:01:33.280 my first thought was,

00:01:34.660 this is a book for my assistant, Abby.

00:01:37.300 This is not a book for me.

00:01:38.920 Because she and I are polar opposites

00:01:42.520 when it comes to time management,

00:01:44.060 planning ahead,

00:01:45.220 getting to the airport,

00:01:46.640 you know,

00:01:46.920 all the things that you talk about in your book,

00:01:48.240 the way your family was,

00:01:49.460 you know,

00:01:49.600 three hours in advance of the airport

00:01:50.980 and one hour in advance of the train station

00:01:52.620 and all that.

00:01:53.880 I never do any of that.

00:01:56.000 Never.

00:01:56.820 And it drives my poor assistant nuts. 1.00

00:01:59.000 But even if I were doing my own travel,

00:02:01.020 planning it myself and so on,

00:02:02.000 I'm just not built that way.

00:02:03.420 So I feel like this is an interview

00:02:05.100 in part for her.

00:02:07.640 And she's next to me going,

00:02:09.320 yes.

00:02:11.100 But then in the latter part of the book,

00:02:12.740 you get to some stuff

00:02:13.440 that I found very useful for me too.

00:02:15.160 So we've got everybody covered,

00:02:16.580 I think.

00:02:17.240 So it's not as morbid as it sounds,

00:02:19.880 the 4,000 weeks.

00:02:20.620 You're not trying to bum us out

00:02:22.020 or depress us.

00:02:22.860 What are you trying to do

00:02:24.000 by framing our life experience

00:02:26.160 in those terms?

00:02:28.260 Yeah, no,

00:02:28.940 I'm really not trying to be

00:02:30.960 just sort of terrifying and depressing.

00:02:33.580 I don't think that would be

00:02:34.760 commercially sensible anyway, right?

00:02:36.860 Writing a book.

00:02:37.960 But no,

00:02:39.920 I think that 4,000 weeks idea,

00:02:43.560 putting it in those terms,

00:02:44.780 it is really startling.

00:02:46.060 It is a little bit scary

00:02:47.480 and I plead guilty

00:02:49.320 to wanting to startle people.

00:02:51.660 But I think that

00:02:52.380 when you follow that through,

00:02:55.000 it's actually really liberating.

00:02:57.020 It's really relaxing

00:02:57.740 because I think in the long,

00:02:59.460 hopefully I can unpack this a bit,

00:03:01.160 but if you really think about

00:03:03.880 what it means

00:03:04.780 to be as finite as we are,

00:03:06.660 one thing that you can see

00:03:07.920 is that like huge amounts

00:03:09.640 of the way we try to do everything

00:03:11.800 and get our arms around everything

00:03:13.380 and not miss out on any experience

00:03:15.640 and answer every email,

00:03:17.420 you know,

00:03:18.060 we can just give that up

00:03:20.180 because it's just not going to happen.

00:03:21.820 You know,

00:03:21.980 there's always going to be

00:03:23.220 too much to do.

00:03:24.600 There's always going to be more things

00:03:25.960 that matter than you have time for.

00:03:28.160 And I think in the end,

00:03:29.140 that's actually a really

00:03:30.140 kind of liberating

00:03:31.280 realization

00:03:33.300 because it lets you

00:03:34.200 stop trying to do something impossible

00:03:36.200 and really get,

00:03:37.220 you know,

00:03:37.980 get to grips with doing something

00:03:39.560 meaningful with the time

00:03:41.580 that you have.

00:03:42.460 What creates

00:03:43.340 the me versus the Abby?

00:03:45.500 Because I can so easily,

00:03:48.280 almost too easily,

00:03:49.880 just ignore my inbox.

00:03:51.980 I just,

00:03:52.240 I just,

00:03:52.880 like,

00:03:53.640 I,

00:03:54.220 I will always get the things done

00:03:56.020 that must get done

00:03:56.860 during the day,

00:03:57.740 you know,

00:03:58.060 to maintain my professional

00:03:59.600 responsibilities,

00:04:00.400 my duties as a mom

00:04:01.420 and all that.

00:04:02.220 But I will never be like,

00:04:03.980 I've got to get,

00:04:04.660 I've got to respond.

00:04:05.620 Whereas she over there, 1.00

00:04:07.300 she will,

00:04:07.740 she will not go to bed

00:04:08.540 until they are all,

00:04:09.100 she's doing her little emails

00:04:10.180 right now.

00:04:10.560 I can see if you're like

00:04:11.540 click clacking on like,

00:04:12.820 she's just,

00:04:13.420 it's nonstop.

00:04:14.140 So what makes somebody

00:04:15.380 more like,

00:04:16.640 eh,

00:04:17.140 like me

00:04:17.640 or more like,

00:04:18.900 yes,

00:04:19.080 I will get it done

00:04:19.720 like Abby?

00:04:21.240 Well,

00:04:21.720 I'm,

00:04:21.960 I'm really interested

00:04:22.980 to learn this about you

00:04:23.980 because I think it is rare

00:04:25.520 for people to be,

00:04:27.120 you know,

00:04:28.400 successful

00:04:28.880 and driven

00:04:29.800 and accomplished

00:04:30.480 and not develop

00:04:31.720 this kind of

00:04:32.880 fairly pathological

00:04:34.120 approach to time,

00:04:35.500 which,

00:04:35.900 I've heard that.

00:04:36.700 You know,

00:04:37.300 I think,

00:04:38.600 I think a lot

00:04:39.280 of people,

00:04:40.060 a lot of people

00:04:41.380 do.

00:04:43.600 I mean,

00:04:44.480 I'm sure it has

00:04:45.220 a million different

00:04:46.140 origins in,

00:04:47.300 in the way people

00:04:48.140 are raised

00:04:48.740 and all the rest of it.

00:04:49.960 But I do think,

00:04:50.940 you know,

00:04:51.180 there is this

00:04:51.780 overwhelming pressure

00:04:52.860 in the world

00:04:53.380 that we live in,

00:04:54.060 the technology

00:04:54.780 that we have,

00:04:55.760 the kind of economy

00:04:56.680 that we try to

00:04:57.760 thrive and flourish in

00:04:59.180 that pushes us

00:05:00.380 towards,

00:05:01.000 you know,

00:05:01.760 trying to become

00:05:02.420 more efficient,

00:05:03.680 more optimized,

00:05:05.280 get more and more done.

00:05:06.460 And if it's always

00:05:08.000 been the case for you

00:05:08.980 since early in your career

00:05:10.240 that you haven't done

00:05:11.120 it that way,

00:05:11.800 I am super impressed

00:05:12.640 and I want to learn

00:05:13.540 from this conversation.

00:05:14.720 No,

00:05:14.920 I'm just,

00:05:15.160 I'm just built this way

00:05:16.060 because I think to myself,

00:05:17.000 I've thought many times,

00:05:17.940 maybe it's because

00:05:18.540 I have Abby

00:05:19.540 and she doesn't have

00:05:20.420 an Abby.

00:05:21.580 But I was like this

00:05:22.920 even before she came

00:05:23.820 into my life.

00:05:24.360 I just,

00:05:25.300 again,

00:05:25.600 I would never miss

00:05:26.460 an obligation.

00:05:27.300 You know,

00:05:27.500 I know what's important.

00:05:28.460 I would never blow off

00:05:29.220 an email from my boss

00:05:30.780 back in the day

00:05:31.580 or something that,

00:05:32.400 something about my kids

00:05:33.240 that really needed

00:05:33.820 tending to.

00:05:34.340 But if you're not

00:05:36.520 in that field,

00:05:37.480 I really don't feel

00:05:38.700 the need to get back

00:05:39.660 to you right away.

00:05:40.560 And if you look

00:05:41.140 at my email history,

00:05:42.080 it's just flag,

00:05:43.080 flag, flag, flag,

00:05:43.780 flag, flag, flag.

00:05:44.640 And within 30 days,

00:05:46.360 I will go back

00:05:47.260 and respond to all

00:05:48.040 the flagged emails.

00:05:48.880 I will.

00:05:49.260 Like,

00:05:49.520 I give myself the time.

00:05:51.060 And the benefit of that

00:05:52.280 is after 30 days,

00:05:53.100 half of them are no longer

00:05:54.020 even relevant.

00:05:55.480 Yeah, right.

00:05:56.120 Totally.

00:05:56.580 People email you

00:05:58.000 to solve some problem

00:05:58.820 and you don't reply.

00:06:00.020 They find some other way

00:06:00.860 to solve that problem.

00:06:01.620 It's a big secret

00:06:04.720 that you learn

00:06:05.420 if you are bad at email,

00:06:06.940 which I have been,

00:06:08.300 not due to being

00:06:10.160 a relaxed person.

00:06:11.540 Yes,

00:06:11.920 but the texting

00:06:12.900 is actually,

00:06:14.140 it's more problematic

00:06:15.300 because texting,

00:06:16.940 you know,

00:06:17.180 like the message service

00:06:18.280 on your iPhone

00:06:19.460 does not have

00:06:20.180 a star function.

00:06:21.580 So that bothers me.

00:06:23.820 If I could remove

00:06:24.540 the messaging

00:06:25.140 from my phone,

00:06:26.100 the text messaging,

00:06:26.980 I would.

00:06:28.000 Because that one's

00:06:28.500 always lurking,

00:06:29.500 judging me,

00:06:29.940 like go faster.

00:06:30.960 People expect responses

00:06:32.400 to the text faster.

00:06:33.920 But your point

00:06:34.680 of your book

00:06:35.120 is that most people

00:06:35.760 are putting that pressure

00:06:36.600 on themselves.

00:06:37.440 They don't need

00:06:38.400 the email box

00:06:40.280 to be glowing

00:06:40.960 or the iPhone

00:06:41.920 to be beeping.

00:06:42.960 It's they're doing

00:06:43.580 it to themselves.

00:06:44.420 Like I've got

00:06:45.300 to be more productive.

00:06:46.080 I've got to squeeze

00:06:46.640 as much out of my,

00:06:47.560 you know,

00:06:48.040 abilities every day

00:06:48.860 as possible.

00:06:50.440 Yeah, I mean,

00:06:50.880 look,

00:06:51.100 I don't think it is

00:06:51.940 without a huge amount

00:06:52.900 of social pressure

00:06:54.340 from the environment.

00:06:55.040 But what I do think

00:06:56.020 is it just,

00:06:56.580 it doesn't actually

00:06:57.780 help to buy into that.

00:06:59.040 So even if you do feel

00:07:00.180 a ton of pressure

00:07:00.800 from outside

00:07:01.500 to get through

00:07:02.320 all your emails,

00:07:03.200 it's not the best way

00:07:04.380 to thrive at work.

00:07:05.540 It's not the best way

00:07:06.460 to live a meaningful life,

00:07:08.900 to try to turn yourself

00:07:10.080 into this person

00:07:11.460 you can never be

00:07:12.320 who answers

00:07:13.220 every single email

00:07:14.220 you could ever receive,

00:07:15.240 who is ultra efficient.

00:07:16.700 Because apart

00:07:17.260 from anything else,

00:07:17.840 what happens

00:07:18.380 when you get

00:07:18.920 incredibly efficient

00:07:20.240 at doing stuff

00:07:20.940 is you get busier.

00:07:22.840 Like you get really good

00:07:24.100 at answering your emails

00:07:25.100 really fast.

00:07:26.020 one thing

00:07:27.220 is guaranteed to happen

00:07:28.020 and I've experienced this

00:07:29.360 and that is that

00:07:29.900 you'll just get

00:07:30.420 a lot more email.

00:07:32.440 So like they say,

00:07:33.420 the reward for good

00:07:34.220 time management

00:07:34.800 is more work.

00:07:36.380 It's not a sensible tactic.

00:07:38.900 Now,

00:07:39.160 you do write about

00:07:40.180 a woman in France

00:07:42.000 who lived to be

00:07:42.580 122 years old

00:07:44.340 and I wanted to know

00:07:45.600 more about her.

00:07:46.760 Now,

00:07:46.940 do we know

00:07:47.400 whether this woman 0.88

00:07:48.120 had some sort of crazy, 0.88

00:07:50.260 she had more than,

00:07:51.100 you know,

00:07:51.320 the 4,000 weeks

00:07:52.060 was the point of the book.

00:07:52.960 But I was curious

00:07:53.980 to know how this woman

00:07:54.960 did it.

00:07:56.840 Well,

00:07:57.320 I don't know the details

00:07:58.500 about Jean Calment

00:07:59.440 in terms of her

00:08:00.260 sort of health

00:08:01.620 and the secret

00:08:02.240 to her longevity.

00:08:03.300 I bring her up

00:08:04.220 because to say

00:08:05.180 that even if you

00:08:06.080 break records

00:08:06.740 like she did

00:08:07.760 and lived to be 122,

00:08:10.020 you still get like

00:08:10.980 6,000 some weeks.

00:08:13.320 It really isn't

00:08:14.680 a large amount.

00:08:17.540 But,

00:08:17.720 I mean,

00:08:19.280 I will say this,

00:08:20.040 it's almost a cliche,

00:08:20.960 isn't it,

00:08:21.200 that when interviews

00:08:22.180 are conducted

00:08:23.240 with people

00:08:23.760 who've lived

00:08:24.120 to these incredible ages,

00:08:25.260 they always credit

00:08:26.020 kind of,

00:08:27.220 you know,

00:08:28.040 alcohol and smoking

00:08:29.460 and various bad habits

00:08:31.080 that we frown on today

00:08:32.620 as having been critical.

00:08:34.740 It may just be

00:08:35.380 that they are much more relaxed

00:08:36.960 on some level

00:08:37.740 about everything,

00:08:39.560 about their health,

00:08:40.320 but also about their time.

00:08:42.100 That bodes well.

00:08:42.920 Yeah.

00:08:43.640 Abby,

00:08:44.040 you've got to calm down.

00:08:44.980 You've got to calm down immediately.

00:08:47.080 She says she doesn't have an inner.

00:08:49.620 Okay,

00:08:50.180 so you decided

00:08:51.160 to be self-reflective

00:08:52.200 about this

00:08:52.660 and take a look

00:08:53.140 at how you were approaching

00:08:54.780 your own productivity,

00:08:56.180 your own life,

00:08:56.700 and so on.

00:08:57.300 And you write about

00:08:58.740 something called

00:08:59.200 Inbox Zero

00:09:00.100 and saying that you've

00:09:01.520 squandered countless hours,

00:09:03.740 not to mention money

00:09:04.680 and so on,

00:09:05.720 thinking that if you could

00:09:06.600 just find the right

00:09:07.400 time management system

00:09:08.560 that, you know,

00:09:09.760 to apply a sufficient amount

00:09:11.520 of self-discipline,

00:09:12.440 you might be able

00:09:13.400 to win the struggle

00:09:14.280 with time.

00:09:14.900 Like,

00:09:15.080 you could finally have

00:09:15.960 this well-ordered life

00:09:17.060 in which you accomplished

00:09:17.820 all your goals.

00:09:18.400 And one of the things

00:09:19.600 you tried

00:09:20.100 was something called

00:09:20.840 the 25-minute,

00:09:22.060 or no,

00:09:22.280 you call it

00:09:22.660 the Pomodoro technique,

00:09:24.040 which involves

00:09:24.840 25-minute blocks

00:09:26.240 of productivity.

00:09:26.960 Can you tell us

00:09:27.400 what that is?

00:09:27.840 Because you tried

00:09:28.900 different methods

00:09:29.620 to figure out,

00:09:30.360 is there one

00:09:30.960 that works the best?

00:09:32.740 Yeah,

00:09:33.200 and partly it was

00:09:33.820 because I was writing

00:09:34.420 this newspaper column,

00:09:35.660 right,

00:09:35.860 where I got to test

00:09:36.840 them all out.

00:09:37.500 It was,

00:09:38.180 in some ways,

00:09:38.680 really bad

00:09:39.260 because I had

00:09:39.960 the opportunity

00:09:40.540 every week,

00:09:42.600 you know,

00:09:42.860 to try some new

00:09:44.460 self-help system

00:09:45.880 and believe

00:09:46.480 that finally now

00:09:47.440 this was going

00:09:47.900 to be the one

00:09:48.380 that did it for me.

00:09:49.900 The Pomodoro technique,

00:09:51.000 it's actually

00:09:51.460 not a bad system,

00:09:53.220 but when I encountered it,

00:09:55.360 I was,

00:09:55.840 you know,

00:09:56.480 I got totally tangled up

00:09:57.660 because I thought

00:09:58.300 I was going to find

00:09:59.280 the perfect system.

00:10:00.920 And guess what?

00:10:01.860 Like all the other systems,

00:10:03.240 it isn't the perfect system.

00:10:04.660 So what is it,

00:10:05.000 for eight hours a day?

00:10:06.140 You break it up

00:10:07.160 into 25-minute blocks

00:10:08.300 with little breaks?

00:10:09.620 If you want to get

00:10:10.500 technical about this,

00:10:11.940 it is,

00:10:12.460 you divide,

00:10:13.160 you work for 25 minutes

00:10:14.560 and take a five-minute break

00:10:15.680 and you do that

00:10:16.320 four times in a row

00:10:17.580 and then you take

00:10:18.500 a longer break

00:10:19.100 and you do as many

00:10:20.040 of those whole things

00:10:22.080 as you can get done

00:10:23.620 in your working day,

00:10:24.960 which is probably

00:10:25.460 only like two or three

00:10:26.680 when you actually

00:10:27.580 think about it

00:10:28.180 for a real working day

00:10:30.480 or with a lunch break

00:10:31.240 or whatever.

00:10:32.540 Again,

00:10:33.180 you know,

00:10:33.620 fine,

00:10:34.220 sure,

00:10:34.680 absolutely.

00:10:35.260 It's good to have

00:10:35.900 these little systems

00:10:36.740 for bringing a little bit

00:10:37.700 of order to your work day

00:10:39.220 if it doesn't have

00:10:40.000 any order.

00:10:40.960 The problem,

00:10:41.960 and I don't think

00:10:42.540 this was just me,

00:10:43.560 is in all sorts

00:10:44.880 of different ways,

00:10:45.540 people are always

00:10:46.400 telling themselves

00:10:47.220 that they're almost there,

00:10:49.680 they're almost on top

00:10:50.560 of things.

00:10:51.160 In a week or a few months,

00:10:52.520 they're going to have

00:10:53.500 things in working order.

00:10:54.760 That feeling of like,

00:10:57.380 I'm going to get

00:10:57.920 to the place

00:10:58.440 where it feels easy

00:10:59.600 to go through the day

00:11:01.900 and I'm not always

00:11:03.760 on the back foot,

00:11:04.900 always fighting

00:11:05.700 against time.

00:11:07.360 And yeah,

00:11:07.700 one of the things

00:11:08.280 I'm trying to say

00:11:08.920 in the book

00:11:09.320 is that attitude

00:11:10.860 of trying to win

00:11:12.440 the fight against time,

00:11:13.340 like that's a big

00:11:14.340 part of the problem

00:11:15.120 and actually just

00:11:15.940 leads to more

00:11:17.100 fighting

00:11:18.020 and less.

00:11:19.720 Now what about,

00:11:21.000 okay,

00:11:21.160 so I'm talking about

00:11:22.160 this from the perspective

00:11:23.200 of, you know,

00:11:23.880 Megyn Kelly

00:11:24.380 and I do have

00:11:25.780 responsibilities

00:11:26.340 and I have,

00:11:27.200 you know,

00:11:27.460 a large amount

00:11:28.400 of data that I need

00:11:29.260 to manage

00:11:29.660 in order to be

00:11:30.440 good at my job.

00:11:31.340 But I'm not like

00:11:32.740 a doctor

00:11:33.360 where it's like,

00:11:35.020 oh no,

00:11:35.260 you must read

00:11:36.480 all those emails

00:11:37.280 or someone could die.

00:11:38.700 You don't get

00:11:39.220 the test result

00:11:39.940 back in time.

00:11:40.700 You know,

00:11:41.060 there are many jobs

00:11:42.400 out there

00:11:42.860 where you absolutely

00:11:44.560 do have to read

00:11:45.400 all your stuff

00:11:46.020 and the vast majority

00:11:47.260 of things that come

00:11:47.920 into you

00:11:48.320 must be responded to.

00:11:49.760 You're a teacher,

00:11:50.680 can't blow off

00:11:51.560 half the parents

00:11:52.660 who write to you

00:11:53.480 not for very long

00:11:54.580 and keep your job,

00:11:55.500 right?

00:11:55.680 So how are those

00:11:57.260 people supposed

00:11:58.120 to apply this,

00:11:59.360 you know,

00:11:59.720 sort of being a little

00:12:01.020 bit more relaxed

00:12:01.920 about it

00:12:02.920 to their own lives?

00:12:04.800 Yeah,

00:12:04.920 it's a really good question

00:12:05.780 and it does come up

00:12:07.000 because people think like,

00:12:07.860 well,

00:12:07.960 okay,

00:12:08.220 it's all very well

00:12:09.080 saying that this 0.98

00:12:09.800 is a ridiculous 0.95

00:12:10.420 situation 0.88

00:12:11.080 that we put

00:12:11.640 ourselves in today

00:12:12.940 but hey,

00:12:13.920 if you are

00:12:14.500 in that situation,

00:12:16.100 you've got to respond

00:12:18.180 like you say.

00:12:20.540 I think that

00:12:21.320 the thing to understand

00:12:22.500 here is

00:12:22.860 I'm really trying

00:12:23.480 to look at

00:12:23.960 the ways in which

00:12:25.160 we put impossible

00:12:26.460 demands on ourselves

00:12:27.700 and also

00:12:28.380 our corporations

00:12:29.460 and our society

00:12:30.440 makes these demands too

00:12:31.360 but like,

00:12:31.980 we expect something

00:12:32.820 of ourselves

00:12:33.420 that we literally

00:12:34.620 cannot do

00:12:35.780 which is

00:12:36.560 in a world

00:12:39.360 of sort of

00:12:40.200 infinite potential

00:12:41.060 emails

00:12:41.480 to be able

00:12:41.940 to answer them

00:12:42.460 all,

00:12:42.720 in a world

00:12:43.100 of infinite

00:12:43.740 potential uses

00:12:44.640 for our time

00:12:46.060 to be able

00:12:46.520 to get around

00:12:47.120 to them all

00:12:47.500 and if the

00:12:49.380 demands being

00:12:50.560 made of you

00:12:50.980 are genuinely

00:12:51.920 impossible,

00:12:53.480 then it doesn't

00:12:54.260 matter if you think

00:12:54.720 you have to do them,

00:12:55.460 like they're impossible

00:12:56.340 and the clue

00:12:57.440 is in the word

00:12:58.080 and you're still

00:12:58.960 going to have

00:12:59.320 to triage,

00:13:00.000 you're still

00:13:00.260 going to have

00:13:00.560 to make sacrifices

00:13:01.700 here or there

00:13:02.560 so that teacher

00:13:03.580 who's getting

00:13:04.080 all those

00:13:04.640 emails from parents

00:13:05.800 and has a hundred

00:13:06.380 other lesson plans

00:13:07.800 to do,

00:13:09.700 they still can't

00:13:10.420 actually do

00:13:10.860 an infinite amount,

00:13:11.720 they still have

00:13:12.180 24 hours in a day

00:13:13.300 which they can't

00:13:15.040 use for work anyway

00:13:16.360 so you still

00:13:18.380 have to make

00:13:18.920 tough choices

00:13:19.700 when it comes

00:13:20.380 to time

00:13:20.780 in almost

00:13:21.240 any walk of life

00:13:22.520 and part of

00:13:23.460 what I'm trying

00:13:23.940 to get at

00:13:24.500 in the book

00:13:24.940 is I think

00:13:25.560 we pursue

00:13:27.240 all these ways

00:13:27.860 of avoiding that,

00:13:28.960 we don't want

00:13:29.520 to feel

00:13:29.980 what it feels

00:13:30.720 like to have

00:13:31.180 to make

00:13:31.460 tough choices

00:13:32.120 with our

00:13:32.800 time,

00:13:33.560 we want

00:13:33.820 to believe

00:13:34.580 that soon

00:13:35.620 and with the

00:13:36.240 right systems

00:13:36.840 or the right

00:13:37.420 amount of

00:13:38.920 self-discipline

00:13:39.960 that we're

00:13:40.300 going to find

00:13:40.780 somewhere

00:13:41.280 that we could

00:13:43.240 avoid having

00:13:44.160 to make

00:13:44.580 tough choices

00:13:45.960 and I think

00:13:46.620 we all

00:13:47.360 like it's

00:13:49.060 worth it

00:13:49.480 for anybody

00:13:50.080 whatever their

00:13:50.720 walk of life

00:13:51.280 to see that

00:13:51.820 like that's

00:13:53.500 not going

00:13:53.800 to work

00:13:55.360 like you do

00:13:55.920 have to

00:13:56.260 confront

00:13:56.760 take the

00:13:57.920 time

00:13:58.460 to create

00:13:59.880 the time

00:14:00.320 for yourself

00:14:00.840 in other

00:14:01.140 words

00:14:01.340 if you're

00:14:02.220 a teacher

00:14:02.540 maybe you

00:14:03.040 you do

00:14:03.460 an automatic

00:14:03.920 notification

00:14:04.560 of

00:14:04.900 I

00:14:05.840 during the

00:14:06.760 day

00:14:06.960 I am busy

00:14:07.540 teaching your

00:14:08.120 children

00:14:08.460 and therefore

00:14:09.040 I will not

00:14:09.520 be checking

00:14:09.920 email

00:14:10.400 except for

00:14:11.320 once

00:14:11.680 at noon

00:14:12.440 you know

00:14:12.740 or something

00:14:13.060 like whatever

00:14:13.960 some way

00:14:14.460 of managing

00:14:14.980 it so that

00:14:15.580 you can

00:14:16.100 do the

00:14:16.500 thing

00:14:16.720 that is

00:14:17.000 most important

00:14:17.520 to you

00:14:17.680 and you

00:14:17.880 don't have

00:14:18.160 to worry

00:14:18.800 I'm blowing

00:14:19.940 off important

00:14:20.600 people or

00:14:21.220 important

00:14:21.600 things like

00:14:22.200 but that

00:14:22.720 even just

00:14:23.360 doing that

00:14:23.660 would take

00:14:23.940 time to

00:14:24.460 figure out

00:14:24.780 how do I

00:14:25.160 manage

00:14:25.680 the week

00:14:26.640 and the

00:14:27.180 amount

00:14:27.400 of data

00:14:27.880 and demands

00:14:28.520 on me

00:14:28.960 that system

00:14:30.480 actually has

00:14:31.120 worked well

00:14:31.520 for me

00:14:31.820 in my

00:14:32.100 life too

00:14:32.540 like I

00:14:32.920 you know

00:14:33.280 if you can

00:14:34.520 if you can

00:14:35.160 figure out

00:14:35.680 who you

00:14:35.960 can stiff

00:14:36.420 arm

00:14:36.680 early on

00:14:38.720 in your

00:14:39.200 week

00:14:39.600 it's

00:14:40.300 brilliant

00:14:40.800 yeah

00:14:42.200 and expectation

00:14:43.660 management

00:14:44.620 is so

00:14:45.400 important

00:14:46.060 because

00:14:46.680 there's

00:14:47.660 something

00:14:47.940 in the

00:14:48.360 way

00:14:48.500 technology

00:14:49.000 works

00:14:49.540 and the

00:14:49.920 way

00:14:50.120 modern

00:14:51.000 life

00:14:51.300 is just

00:14:51.820 getting

00:14:52.040 faster

00:14:52.440 and faster

00:14:52.920 that

00:14:53.640 leads us

00:14:54.560 all to

00:14:55.000 think

00:14:55.300 that

00:14:55.900 everything

00:14:57.260 has to

00:14:57.580 be

00:14:57.680 instantaneous

00:14:58.160 that you're

00:14:58.680 failing

00:14:59.020 if you

00:14:59.780 don't reply

00:15:00.220 to an

00:15:00.580 email

00:15:00.820 within

00:15:01.160 an hour

00:15:02.140 of receiving

00:15:02.620 it

00:15:02.760 or something

00:15:03.100 time and

00:15:04.480 again

00:15:04.680 you see

00:15:05.040 and I

00:15:05.260 think

00:15:05.380 you see

00:15:05.640 this

00:15:05.820 in the

00:15:06.040 research

00:15:06.460 studies

00:15:06.780 not just

00:15:07.240 anecdotally

00:15:07.900 people are

00:15:09.140 fine

00:15:09.600 with things

00:15:10.160 moving

00:15:10.480 a little

00:15:10.920 bit more

00:15:11.260 slowly

00:15:11.560 as long

00:15:11.960 as they

00:15:12.300 can depend

00:15:13.000 on you

00:15:13.360 and trust

00:15:14.160 so if

00:15:14.460 you're

00:15:14.560 someone

00:15:14.800 who

00:15:15.120 always

00:15:16.280 gets back

00:15:16.700 to people

00:15:17.140 it's more

00:15:19.080 important that

00:15:19.600 you're someone

00:15:19.880 who always

00:15:20.160 gets back

00:15:20.500 to people

00:15:20.880 usually

00:15:21.440 than that

00:15:22.120 you always

00:15:22.460 get back

00:15:22.860 to them

00:15:23.260 incredibly

00:15:24.360 fast

00:15:24.880 and it's

00:15:25.520 way better

00:15:26.100 that you

00:15:26.580 get back

00:15:26.920 to them

00:15:27.180 in 24

00:15:27.620 hours

00:15:28.120 than that

00:15:28.920 you're

00:15:29.140 occasionally

00:15:29.560 someone

00:15:29.940 who's

00:15:30.180 responding

00:15:30.480 in minutes

00:15:30.900 and then

00:15:31.120 other times

00:15:31.560 you just

00:15:31.860 get their

00:15:33.400 response

00:15:33.940 for months

00:15:34.460 on end

00:15:34.960 so it's

00:15:35.840 like there's

00:15:36.280 a lot

00:15:36.720 to be said

00:15:37.320 for figuring

00:15:38.720 out the

00:15:39.840 expectations

00:15:40.560 that people

00:15:41.020 have

00:15:41.320 and then

00:15:41.860 yeah

00:15:42.060 if what

00:15:42.740 you're

00:15:42.940 doing

00:15:43.300 if there's

00:15:43.800 something

00:15:44.180 in your

00:15:44.540 work

00:15:44.940 that is

00:15:45.300 the most

00:15:46.220 important

00:15:46.560 thing

00:15:46.920 if you're

00:15:47.680 a teacher

00:15:48.000 that's teaching

00:15:48.420 kids

00:15:48.720 whatever it

00:15:49.120 might be

00:15:49.620 eventually

00:15:51.120 you're just

00:15:51.600 going to have

00:15:51.940 to make

00:15:55.100 time for

00:15:55.440 that

00:15:55.580 and let

00:15:56.740 the

00:15:56.900 chips

00:15:57.120 fall

00:15:57.380 where

00:15:57.580 they

00:15:57.720 will

00:15:57.960 with

00:15:58.240 the

00:15:58.340 other

00:15:58.480 stuff

00:15:58.740 because

00:15:59.000 otherwise

00:15:59.340 like

00:15:59.960 what's

00:16:00.760 the

00:16:00.840 point

00:16:01.060 of

00:16:01.340 doing

00:16:01.520 that

00:16:01.660 right

00:16:01.880 what's

00:16:02.680 the

00:16:02.780 point

00:16:02.940 and honestly

00:16:03.720 most people

00:16:04.200 would be

00:16:04.800 honest

00:16:05.580 about that

00:16:05.980 like I would

00:16:06.400 rather have

00:16:06.800 my teacher

00:16:07.180 teaching my

00:16:07.700 child

00:16:07.980 than responding

00:16:08.680 to my 1.00

00:16:08.980 stupid 1.00

00:16:09.300 emails 1.00

00:16:09.620 that I

00:16:09.940 should

00:16:10.100 have

00:16:10.200 probably

00:16:10.740 not

00:16:11.000 sent

00:16:11.360 prior to

00:16:11.840 3pm

00:16:12.280 unless it's

00:16:12.760 a true

00:16:13.020 emergency

00:16:13.440 like I've

00:16:13.960 got to

00:16:14.140 come get

00:16:14.480 him

00:16:14.660 early

00:16:14.980 please

00:16:15.720 deliver

00:16:16.100 him

00:16:16.360 you write

00:16:17.920 about how

00:16:18.360 you had

00:16:18.720 one of

00:16:19.100 these

00:16:19.240 epiphanies

00:16:19.920 after you

00:16:20.960 had your

00:16:21.620 son

00:16:22.000 about how

00:16:23.320 you know

00:16:24.080 we don't

00:16:24.600 we don't

00:16:24.960 tend to

00:16:25.300 live in

00:16:25.540 the moment

00:16:25.860 we do

00:16:26.240 tend to

00:16:26.600 worry about

00:16:27.040 what's

00:16:27.280 coming at

00:16:27.920 us down

00:16:28.260 the pike 1.00

00:16:28.680 it costs

00:16:29.660 our

00:16:29.880 enjoyment

00:16:30.280 of what's

00:16:30.700 happening

00:16:31.020 in the

00:16:31.300 moment

00:16:31.540 and you

00:16:32.320 can't

00:16:32.640 always

00:16:32.960 do it

00:16:33.260 of course

00:16:33.580 you know

00:16:33.780 when you're

00:16:34.000 at work

00:16:34.300 you're

00:16:34.460 managing

00:16:34.820 you're

00:16:35.020 an

00:16:35.100 important

00:16:35.320 person

00:16:35.620 you've

00:16:35.820 got to

00:16:35.960 think

00:16:36.380 about

00:16:36.600 okay

00:16:36.900 this is

00:16:37.340 a worry

00:16:37.660 I've

00:16:37.860 got to

00:16:38.000 plan

00:16:38.200 for it

00:16:38.580 but

00:16:39.200 it's

00:16:39.720 it's

00:16:40.000 it's

00:16:40.440 hard

00:16:40.800 I think

00:16:41.200 the average

00:16:41.620 person

00:16:41.980 struggles

00:16:42.400 to live

00:16:42.800 in the

00:16:43.000 moment

00:16:43.200 so

00:16:43.420 what was

00:16:44.160 your

00:16:44.320 realization

00:16:44.820 after your

00:16:45.300 son was

00:16:45.620 born

00:16:45.840 oh yeah

00:16:47.200 I mean

00:16:47.520 I totally

00:16:48.020 agree

00:16:48.360 I think

00:16:48.780 all the

00:16:49.960 forces

00:16:50.280 in us

00:16:50.900 and outside

00:16:51.420 us

00:16:51.620 they push

00:16:51.980 us to

00:16:52.280 this

00:16:52.480 notion

00:16:52.800 that

00:16:53.100 what

00:16:53.860 really

00:16:54.320 matters

00:16:54.720 when you're

00:16:55.120 measuring

00:16:55.420 how you

00:16:55.880 use

00:16:56.100 the day

00:16:56.480 is like

00:16:56.920 whether

00:16:57.220 it helped

00:16:57.700 get you

00:16:58.200 somewhere

00:16:58.620 in the

00:16:59.240 future

00:16:59.480 and you've

00:17:00.260 got to

00:17:00.440 do that

00:17:00.760 if you

00:17:01.100 want to

00:17:01.420 make a

00:17:02.020 living

00:17:02.160 and do

00:17:02.740 anything

00:17:03.340 interesting

00:17:03.880 in life

00:17:04.340 but

00:17:04.600 if it's

00:17:05.480 the only

00:17:05.980 thing

00:17:06.220 you do

00:17:06.560 it really

00:17:08.660 saps

00:17:09.680 the meaning

00:17:10.100 from life

00:17:10.540 and that

00:17:10.780 is so

00:17:11.300 clear

00:17:11.640 when you

00:17:11.940 become

00:17:12.240 you know

00:17:12.600 you become

00:17:12.900 a parent

00:17:13.240 suddenly

00:17:13.920 it's

00:17:14.940 easily

00:17:15.380 the biggest

00:17:15.860 well for me

00:17:16.840 anyway

00:17:17.120 you know

00:17:17.340 easily

00:17:17.640 the biggest

00:17:18.020 responsibility

00:17:18.640 you've

00:17:19.420 ever had

00:17:20.420 you really

00:17:21.300 want to

00:17:21.580 get it

00:17:21.800 right

00:17:22.100 and if

00:17:22.700 you buy

00:17:23.320 all the

00:17:23.640 self-help

00:17:24.060 books

00:17:24.420 about

00:17:24.740 parenting

00:17:25.180 they will

00:17:26.220 give you

00:17:26.520 a million

00:17:26.780 different

00:17:27.240 pieces

00:17:28.600 of advice

00:17:29.040 that contradict

00:17:29.540 each other

00:17:30.040 about how

00:17:30.560 to do

00:17:30.780 it right

00:17:31.120 but they're

00:17:31.840 all focused

00:17:33.120 implicitly

00:17:35.120 or explicitly

00:17:35.720 they're all

00:17:36.280 focused on

00:17:36.860 this idea

00:17:37.400 what you're

00:17:37.920 doing

00:17:38.320 is trying

00:17:39.200 to like

00:17:39.520 build

00:17:40.100 the most

00:17:40.420 successful

00:17:40.840 adult

00:17:41.180 later on

00:17:42.220 build the

00:17:43.320 most successful

00:17:43.920 older kid

00:17:44.720 when you're

00:17:45.460 looking after

00:17:46.080 a newborn

00:17:46.500 and that's

00:17:47.560 important

00:17:47.980 of course

00:17:48.300 it's important

00:17:48.800 like of course

00:17:49.720 but if it's

00:17:50.800 the only thing

00:17:51.520 you're doing

00:17:52.040 then you just

00:17:53.060 completely miss

00:17:54.120 the actual

00:17:55.340 childhood

00:17:56.260 right

00:17:56.540 the actual

00:17:57.120 relationship

00:17:57.680 with your

00:17:58.080 child in that

00:17:58.660 moment

00:17:58.900 so I found

00:17:59.600 because I was

00:18:00.080 still

00:18:00.380 when our

00:18:02.040 son was born

00:18:02.560 I was still

00:18:03.320 totally in this

00:18:04.100 kind of

00:18:04.540 productivity

00:18:05.560 geek

00:18:06.140 mindset

00:18:06.960 I found

00:18:07.580 myself

00:18:07.900 transferring

00:18:08.420 that mindset

00:18:09.000 onto

00:18:09.520 being a

00:18:10.520 parent

00:18:10.780 and it

00:18:11.060 would be

00:18:11.320 like

00:18:11.580 it wouldn't

00:18:12.560 be like

00:18:12.940 am I

00:18:13.900 it wouldn't

00:18:14.680 be just

00:18:14.980 enjoying a

00:18:15.600 moment with

00:18:16.180 him as a

00:18:16.900 newborn

00:18:17.140 it would be

00:18:17.760 like is he

00:18:18.980 meeting that

00:18:19.380 developmental

00:18:19.800 milestone

00:18:20.380 like do I

00:18:20.900 need to do

00:18:21.220 something

00:18:21.400 different

00:18:21.740 is this

00:18:22.040 thing gonna

00:18:22.360 work

00:18:22.720 should we

00:18:23.280 be changing

00:18:23.900 the approach

00:18:24.440 we have to

00:18:24.900 sleep training

00:18:26.120 and yeah

00:18:27.380 it's important

00:18:27.960 of course

00:18:28.360 but if it's

00:18:29.280 everything

00:18:29.660 you sort of

00:18:30.280 miss the

00:18:30.640 moment

00:18:30.880 and then

00:18:31.140 you're like

00:18:31.480 hang on

00:18:32.140 he's only

00:18:32.560 gonna be

00:18:33.220 zero years

00:18:34.260 old for

00:18:34.640 one year

00:18:34.980 he's only

00:18:35.280 gonna be

00:18:35.780 one year

00:18:36.980 old for

00:18:37.300 one year

00:18:37.760 this is true

00:18:38.840 of all life

00:18:39.420 whether you're

00:18:39.760 a parent

00:18:40.040 or not

00:18:40.340 by the way

00:18:40.760 that every

00:18:41.200 moment

00:18:41.520 comes and

00:18:42.300 then it's

00:18:42.560 gone forever

00:18:43.060 but it's so

00:18:44.100 hard to

00:18:44.600 ignore

00:18:45.020 with a

00:18:45.660 with a

00:18:46.040 newborn

00:18:46.340 that

00:18:46.940 it really

00:18:48.660 helped me

00:18:49.180 see how

00:18:50.400 much of my

00:18:51.000 life to that

00:18:51.560 point I had

00:18:52.160 spent

00:18:52.500 just assuming

00:18:53.860 that the

00:18:54.480 real point

00:18:55.000 was next

00:18:56.540 month or

00:18:56.920 next year

00:18:57.400 and never

00:18:57.900 never

00:18:58.400 I love that

00:18:59.640 idea you know

00:19:00.120 he's got to

00:19:01.200 get a more

00:19:01.560 advanced

00:19:01.900 extra softer

00:19:02.520 than this

00:19:02.940 he can do

00:19:03.220 better

00:19:03.420 what are these 1.00

00:19:03.800 stupid toys 1.00

00:19:04.520 on this 1.00

00:19:04.800 thing

00:19:04.980 he can be

00:19:05.420 ahead of the

00:19:06.400 other zero

00:19:06.940 plus six

00:19:07.880 months

00:19:08.140 year old

00:19:08.680 you point out

00:19:17.100 like it's

00:19:17.880 hard to do

00:19:18.480 and I see

00:19:18.960 myself just

00:19:19.520 with my

00:19:19.880 kids

00:19:20.200 and in my

00:19:21.080 life

00:19:21.440 wanting

00:19:22.260 time to

00:19:23.140 be

00:19:23.360 productive

00:19:24.000 okay

00:19:24.620 so like

00:19:25.200 that I

00:19:25.880 can relate

00:19:26.300 to like

00:19:26.940 wanting time

00:19:27.600 to be

00:19:27.860 productive

00:19:28.280 as opposed

00:19:28.980 to

00:19:29.420 just

00:19:30.500 it

00:19:30.840 it just

00:19:31.440 is

00:19:31.820 you know

00:19:32.320 and you

00:19:32.520 you write

00:19:32.960 about how

00:19:33.580 what if I

00:19:34.720 just stared at

00:19:35.380 my little

00:19:35.740 boy's

00:19:36.340 hand

00:19:37.160 opening and

00:19:37.980 closing

00:19:38.320 you know

00:19:38.720 this the

00:19:39.260 miracle of

00:19:39.820 this little

00:19:40.060 baby figuring

00:19:40.700 out his

00:19:41.180 fingers and

00:19:42.100 his thumb

00:19:42.620 and made

00:19:43.580 that my

00:19:43.980 moment as

00:19:44.660 opposed to

00:19:45.300 like what

00:19:46.420 if why

00:19:47.080 how if I

00:19:48.000 teach him

00:19:48.340 patty cake

00:19:48.860 and we

00:19:49.240 could advance

00:19:49.720 his motor

00:19:50.200 skills you

00:19:50.620 know like

00:19:50.920 right right

00:19:51.760 I can fall

00:19:52.660 into that

00:19:53.080 thinking too

00:19:53.860 quickly as

00:19:54.380 well and

00:19:54.640 you do have

00:19:55.420 to check

00:19:55.760 yourself like

00:19:56.380 not everything

00:19:56.800 has to be

00:19:57.500 productive or

00:19:58.800 about advancing

00:19:59.860 right exactly

00:20:01.240 or another way

00:20:02.080 of saying the

00:20:02.580 same thing I

00:20:03.100 would say

00:20:03.600 is like

00:20:05.140 what does

00:20:05.800 productivity even

00:20:06.660 mean if

00:20:08.060 there are never

00:20:08.520 these moments

00:20:09.300 of of like

00:20:10.860 it's for this

00:20:11.660 it's for here

00:20:12.460 it's for now

00:20:13.140 um so I

00:20:14.620 in a way you

00:20:15.260 could even say

00:20:15.780 that those moments

00:20:16.460 are totally

00:20:17.160 productive right

00:20:17.900 I mean it's

00:20:18.820 um they're

00:20:20.740 productive of

00:20:21.580 what they

00:20:22.300 produce the

00:20:23.180 value that

00:20:23.800 they add if

00:20:24.400 we're going to

00:20:24.700 use productive

00:20:25.340 in its kind

00:20:25.880 of you know

00:20:26.180 economic sense

00:20:26.940 is the meaning

00:20:28.420 that you get

00:20:29.120 from letting

00:20:29.940 yourself just

00:20:30.720 be in that

00:20:32.420 in that moment

00:20:33.400 so there's

00:20:34.120 something kind

00:20:34.500 of unproductive

00:20:35.720 about being

00:20:36.800 totally fixated

00:20:37.820 on future

00:20:38.660 productivity

00:20:39.180 because like

00:20:39.740 when does the

00:20:40.520 value get

00:20:40.920 produced like

00:20:42.120 you're just

00:20:42.500 going to do

00:20:42.980 it your whole

00:20:43.360 life and then

00:20:43.880 on your death

00:20:44.300 bed be like 0.99

00:20:44.820 great I won

00:20:45.740 and then yeah

00:20:46.600 all over that's

00:20:47.860 no good that's

00:20:49.140 that's so true

00:20:50.220 right because if

00:20:51.380 you were and as

00:20:53.160 parents we kind

00:20:53.740 of are responsible

00:20:54.700 for programming a

00:20:56.080 little human being

00:20:56.920 you know if

00:20:57.500 somebody just gave

00:20:58.220 you let's say a

00:20:58.780 three-year-old and

00:20:59.420 said okay you

00:21:00.360 know make it into

00:21:01.220 a well-rounded

00:21:02.860 human you wouldn't

00:21:04.340 just have it work

00:21:05.180 work work work

00:21:05.960 study study study

00:21:06.740 study you know

00:21:07.720 you would want

00:21:08.820 time for whimsy

00:21:09.920 you would want the

00:21:10.980 child to do the

00:21:11.720 finger thing and to 0.96

00:21:13.020 do some skipping and

00:21:14.040 singing and yet when

00:21:15.600 it comes to our

00:21:16.220 adult selves I

00:21:18.140 think a lot a lot

00:21:18.800 of successful people

00:21:19.580 really don't build

00:21:20.360 that in it's all

00:21:21.380 about you know

00:21:22.640 forward motion it's

00:21:23.720 not necessarily about

00:21:24.460 like the time

00:21:25.080 management but it's

00:21:26.300 just about productivity

00:21:27.580 like doing something

00:21:28.600 that's that has

00:21:29.500 meaning and that

00:21:30.520 will advance one

00:21:31.840 yeah totally and I

00:21:34.380 and I think one of

00:21:35.080 the one of the

00:21:36.480 things about that is

00:21:37.340 we don't want to

00:21:39.640 rest in the moment

00:21:41.060 right if you try to

00:21:41.840 do it at first

00:21:42.960 anyway it feels

00:21:44.060 kind of unpleasant

00:21:46.460 to a lot of us I

00:21:47.580 think you get sort

00:21:48.140 of antsy and like

00:21:48.900 it should be doing

00:21:49.560 something else it

00:21:50.440 doesn't feel good

00:21:51.120 so we get all these

00:21:53.740 messages about how

00:21:54.700 important it is to be

00:21:55.640 here now in the

00:21:56.520 moment and books on

00:21:57.980 meditation that make

00:21:58.940 it look like such a

00:21:59.780 beautiful delightful

00:22:01.040 activity to undertake

00:22:02.680 to just smell the

00:22:04.460 roses whatever you try

00:22:06.180 it I think what you

00:22:07.460 need to understand is

00:22:09.140 is to not expect it to

00:22:11.120 feel that great at the

00:22:12.180 beginning because the

00:22:13.040 flywheel is is racing

00:22:14.940 if you try to stop

00:22:16.240 that which I think we

00:22:17.400 all should we we

00:22:19.460 better expect it to

00:22:20.440 feel kind of unpleasant

00:22:21.680 at first because we

00:22:22.960 are completely

00:22:23.720 conditioned for the

00:22:24.680 the opposite way of

00:22:26.240 being what about

00:22:28.460 procrastination you've

00:22:30.100 got feelings on this

00:22:31.140 is it good is it bad

00:22:33.160 do we do more of it

00:22:34.240 or less of it I think

00:22:36.180 it can be good or bad

00:22:37.000 but what I think is

00:22:37.920 really important to see

00:22:39.120 is that at least in

00:22:40.040 some sense we're

00:22:41.320 always doing it

00:22:42.300 anyway somehow

00:22:43.360 you're always

00:22:43.920 procrastinating on

00:22:44.760 something right if

00:22:45.940 you buy my basic

00:22:47.940 idea here that

00:22:49.580 because we're finite

00:22:50.540 and the world is

00:22:51.700 infinite there's

00:22:52.500 always going to be

00:22:53.000 more things you

00:22:53.680 could be advancing

00:22:54.880 on things that could

00:22:56.240 matter things that

00:22:57.540 would matter to spend

00:22:58.380 your time on today

00:22:59.280 you're always going to

00:23:00.600 be neglecting almost

00:23:02.440 all of them so if

00:23:03.900 procrastination is like

00:23:05.080 neglecting something

00:23:05.960 important then yeah

00:23:07.600 you better believe it

00:23:08.640 you're neglecting

00:23:09.120 something important

00:23:09.820 every day all the

00:23:10.960 time and why this is

00:23:12.420 an interesting way of

00:23:13.200 thinking about it I

00:23:14.480 think is because it

00:23:15.720 it makes you see that

00:23:17.140 the challenge the real

00:23:18.620 challenge is not how

00:23:20.420 do I get to the end

00:23:21.120 of the day and not

00:23:22.020 feel like I neglected

00:23:23.100 anything important

00:23:23.960 because that's crazy

00:23:25.540 but watch but how do

00:23:28.260 I wisely choose what to

00:23:29.960 neglect and how do I

00:23:30.760 let myself neglect

00:23:31.900 almost everything that I

00:23:33.480 could do today so that

00:23:35.160 I can focus on

00:23:36.720 something that I that

00:23:39.100 I care about now I

00:23:40.300 think procrastination

00:23:41.220 does go bad and

00:23:42.420 people procrastinate

00:23:43.620 because they don't

00:23:44.320 want to bring things

00:23:46.680 or relationships or

00:23:47.800 projects into the world

00:23:48.980 of reality because it's

00:23:50.160 not going to be perfect

00:23:51.040 like it is in their

00:23:51.700 heads and so there's a

00:23:52.560 sort of strong

00:23:53.200 perfectionistic reason to

00:23:55.120 stay paralyzed which

00:23:56.420 I've definitely

00:23:57.020 experienced in in my

00:23:59.400 life but but some

00:24:01.780 form of procrastination

00:24:02.720 is going to happen so

00:24:04.260 I think it's kind of

00:24:05.120 good to see that you

00:24:06.660 get to relax and say

00:24:07.780 okay I can only do

00:24:08.980 one one percent of the

00:24:10.300 things today so which

00:24:11.660 one percent well you

00:24:12.840 write about figuring out

00:24:14.280 why you're

00:24:14.800 procrastinating this

00:24:15.880 thing and then coming

00:24:17.020 to terms with the

00:24:19.580 negative feelings you're

00:24:20.800 probably having about

00:24:21.880 that thing and more

00:24:22.740 accurately your

00:24:23.920 abilities to do that

00:24:26.220 thing you're you don't

00:24:27.180 generally procrastinate

00:24:28.340 think thing you're

00:24:29.100 amazing at that you

00:24:30.300 know you're going to

00:24:30.920 nail it's going to be a

00:24:31.860 breeze so talk about

00:24:33.940 how that's like an it's

00:24:34.780 an opportunity to learn

00:24:35.760 a little something about

00:24:36.420 yourself and actually

00:24:37.160 relieve a pressure valve

00:24:38.840 on you I totally think

00:24:41.360 so yeah I mean this is

00:24:42.640 all about this idea

00:24:43.660 which I I think runs

00:24:45.160 through all the stuff

00:24:45.880 I'm writing talking

00:24:47.320 about here we're

00:24:49.180 limited in all these

00:24:49.920 ways we don't want to

00:24:50.800 feel the ways in which

00:24:51.700 we're limited because

00:24:52.400 that feels like a that

00:24:54.060 feels like a defeat you

00:24:55.100 know we want to feel

00:24:55.780 limitless the way to feel

00:24:58.640 limitlessly talented about

00:25:00.340 a project is never to

00:25:02.140 start it the way to feel

00:25:03.460 limitlessly confident

00:25:04.660 about amazing at the

00:25:07.440 saxophone right the way

00:25:10.480 to feel like the way to

00:25:12.380 cling to the idea that

00:25:13.500 like married life has no

00:25:16.020 problems in it is to

00:25:17.960 never get to the point of

00:25:19.140 actually getting married

00:25:20.020 right this reminds me of

00:25:21.100 a line in the in the in

00:25:23.140 the BBC version of Pride

00:25:24.800 and Prejudice you know the

00:25:26.300 one with Colin Firth and

00:25:28.020 Jennifer L I'm not sure how

00:25:30.440 to pronounce it anyway

00:25:31.280 where the the sort of

00:25:32.580 very rich old stodgy

00:25:34.720 aunt who's got the 1.00

00:25:35.760 amazing estate is telling

00:25:37.380 Lizzie how she should

00:25:38.320 play the piano better and

00:25:40.440 says to her if I had ever

00:25:43.980 learnt I should have been

00:25:45.840 a true proficient yeah

00:25:48.480 she's never played a key in

00:25:51.040 her life but she's got all

00:25:52.620 sorts of thoughts on how

00:25:53.460 to do better yeah no

00:25:55.340 exactly it's so lovely to

00:25:57.120 just like wallow in how

00:25:58.360 great it's going to be and

00:25:59.900 the moment you bring

00:26:00.800 anything into reality by

00:26:03.140 definition right this

00:26:04.160 isn't this is not me the

00:26:06.100 Brit being defeatist and a 1.00

00:26:07.980 good American would be

00:26:08.860 relentlessly optimistic

00:26:09.800 about the topic it's like

00:26:10.660 it's by definition the

00:26:12.980 project is not going to

00:26:14.020 live up to perfection

00:26:14.980 because the encounter with

00:26:16.380 reality is going to mean

00:26:17.560 that it isn't perfect

00:26:18.820 relationships are with

00:26:20.240 real people who have their

00:26:22.260 own problems and creative

00:26:25.360 work is something that

00:26:27.880 brings you up against your

00:26:29.080 edge and and just life's

00:26:31.000 problems in general you

00:26:32.500 can't do them perfectly and

00:26:34.340 so it's always going to feel

00:26:36.000 more comfortable to

00:26:37.100 procrastinate for a certain

00:26:38.660 personality type anyway and

00:26:40.740 yeah I think if you see that

00:26:42.100 if you see that it's

00:26:42.880 inevitable that when you put

00:26:46.420 this thing into the world it's

00:26:48.240 it's going to be it's not

00:26:49.600 going to measure up to the

00:26:50.500 fantasy that's usually

00:26:52.880 liberating because you then

00:26:53.900 you get to realize like it's

00:26:54.980 not because you're no good or

00:26:56.460 you didn't do it properly or

00:26:57.620 something that's just how it

00:26:58.960 is for humans and then it's

00:27:01.100 like well okay I might as

00:27:02.160 well make the bold move I

00:27:03.720 might as well uh embark on the

00:27:06.480 relationship I might as well

00:27:07.580 write the novel you know

00:27:09.120 insert all the examples here

00:27:10.900 but the point is there's no

00:27:12.700 reason if you're holding on to

00:27:14.180 perfection like that ship has

00:27:15.900 sailed so that's great that

00:27:17.380 means you can just go do it and

00:27:18.920 and I think that is really

00:27:20.980 liberating for a lot of people

00:27:22.580 is that sort of like don't let

00:27:24.380 the uh don't let the perfect be

00:27:25.760 the enemy of the good or in

00:27:27.120 this case the the so-so

00:27:28.580 yeah exactly or the good

00:27:31.080 enough right exactly because

00:27:32.660 um otherwise you just won't do

00:27:34.200 it at all and it's obviously

00:27:35.400 it has more value if it exists

00:27:38.160 but how do you get yourself past

00:27:40.140 that you know you're in that

00:27:41.460 place where you're

00:27:42.000 procrastinating it for a reason

00:27:44.140 you know it's weighing on you

00:27:45.540 it's daunting there's so much

00:27:48.360 work to be done whatever the

00:27:49.500 project is you feel overwhelmed

00:27:51.400 by it how do you get to that

00:27:53.140 point where you're willing to

00:27:54.080 move it right in front of you

00:27:56.080 onto the plate right when

00:27:57.640 there are so many other things

00:27:59.160 you could devote your attention

00:28:00.540 to and it feels so good to

00:28:02.920 ignore that big bear

00:28:04.080 I mean yeah that's the question

00:28:07.500 and uh part of it I hope is just

00:28:10.380 this perspective shift that we're

00:28:11.960 talking about here I think if you

00:28:13.760 can see that perfection is not

00:28:16.620 possible in in reality then that

00:28:19.060 makes it easier the other thing

00:28:21.560 that I think really helps is to

00:28:23.200 get almost absurd in how um

00:28:26.820 incremental you're willing to be

00:28:28.540 right how tiny a step you're

00:28:30.900 you're willing to take there's

00:28:32.820 something you can do on any

00:28:34.900 project that that would make a

00:28:36.540 difference and that you actually

00:28:37.780 would do now and it might be

00:28:39.880 nothing you know it might be

00:28:42.060 opening the file on your computer

00:28:44.120 that is going to be the great

00:28:46.080 American novel it might be uh you

00:28:48.720 know arranging to have coffee with

00:28:50.460 one friend to talk about how

00:28:52.540 you're thinking about changing

00:28:53.600 careers like it's just there's

00:28:55.720 something that you actually can do

00:28:57.140 that is that gets just under that

00:29:00.740 um that bar of being too

00:29:03.040 intimidating to do and and if you

00:29:05.100 can find that like that thing to do

00:29:07.480 that decision that you could make

00:29:08.680 now and and do it um the momentum

00:29:11.980 effect is is bizarre quite frankly you

00:29:15.900 know it everything becomes progressively

00:29:18.480 easier and easier and easier and

00:29:20.220 before you know it you are actually

00:29:21.480 making real progress now you you

00:29:24.460 talk about though how if you're

00:29:26.660 going to go that route and I like

00:29:28.080 that route that seems doable that

00:29:29.680 seems manageable you know one tiny

00:29:31.580 little teaspoon you know don't have 0.96

00:29:32.980 to do the whole big quart of water

00:29:34.880 um then the next day let's say

00:29:38.560 that's Monday and I I take the little

00:29:41.140 teaspoon I'm gonna do it okay I can

00:29:42.760 do this amount but then Tuesday I'm

00:29:44.180 like okay I'll take I'll do a

00:29:45.820 teaspoon then I get to Wednesday I'm

00:29:47.180 like now I'm now I'm ready to go I'm

00:29:48.980 ready to drink the whole liter and

00:29:50.600 you're under this philosophy you say

00:29:52.480 don't do it it's just teaspoons it

00:29:55.000 like just small amounts every day

00:29:57.580 that's what incrementalism is that

00:29:59.820 must be very hard because if you get

00:30:01.440 to the day when everything's unlocked

00:30:02.900 you want to like let loose and do five

00:30:05.460 hours on the project you're saying

00:30:06.980 don't it's a balance but I yeah I

00:30:11.640 think that impatience is actually we

00:30:13.400 can talk about other ways in which

00:30:15.040 impatience is huge problem but this is

00:30:17.060 a form of impatience right you get to

00:30:19.200 that point you're like okay now I'm

00:30:20.660 gonna binge it now I'm gonna race

00:30:22.060 through to completion and what's going

00:30:24.580 on there actually and I this comes from

00:30:27.060 various work that's been done on the

00:30:28.480 psychology of writers and other

00:30:30.340 creatives people like that is it's

00:30:33.660 actually an unwillingness to let it take

00:30:35.620 the time that it takes so I'm not

00:30:37.120 necessarily saying you have to only do

00:30:38.740 five minutes like every day for the

00:30:40.180 rest of your life until the project is

00:30:42.380 done but you probably have to do less

00:30:45.220 than you feel like you could do and if

00:30:49.280 you call it off at that point and you

00:30:51.220 actually can get up and walk away while

00:30:53.980 there's still that sense that you you

00:30:56.320 haven't done all you could have done what

00:30:59.920 you find is there's way more motivation to

00:31:02.500 come back to it the next day and the next

00:31:04.800 day and and it doesn't become this incredibly

00:31:08.040 large thing in your life which then becomes

00:31:09.880 intimidating or you resent it or you just

00:31:11.820 can't be bothered with it if you binge

00:31:14.260 instead right okay maybe two or three days

00:31:16.600 you'll be incredibly productive but then

00:31:20.040 you'll be exhausted you'll you'll start to

00:31:22.300 hate the activity involved you'll fall off

00:31:25.420 the wagon and then you'll just be like

00:31:27.180 well if I didn't do it today I might as

00:31:28.980 well not do it at all and it'll be six

00:31:30.480 months later before you get back to it so

00:31:32.400 there's something yeah there's something

00:31:34.760 really powerful about stopping even when

00:31:37.560 you kind of don't want to because it goes

00:31:39.460 against all the kind of drivenness that we

00:31:42.440 that we have but it's it's good to push

00:31:44.700 back against that's cool yeah my my husband

00:31:47.040 he's a writer and he told me that uh he

00:31:49.600 loves Ernest Hemingway and I guess Ernest

00:31:51.640 Hemingway when writing books would always

00:31:53.120 write the one next line you know of the if

00:31:57.280 you finish chapter two he would write the

00:31:58.940 first line of chapter three before he walked

00:32:00.680 away um so you know leaving even himself

00:32:04.260 wanting a little a little more when he

00:32:06.820 left the project and then of course the

00:32:08.120 next time around you one would presume

00:32:09.620 he got after it easier said than done but I

00:32:12.840 like it as a as a as an approach

00:32:14.680 you have a similar philosophy well you know

00:32:25.560 the name of my book was settle for more

00:32:27.560 and you have exactly the opposite philosophy

00:32:30.500 when it comes to for example relationships

00:32:32.840 and I thought this is fascinating you don't

00:32:35.980 really mean it but you kind of mean settle

00:32:37.900 for less in that if settling for more in the

00:32:41.500 relationship department means you sideline

00:32:43.440 yourself from the market for 10 years because

00:32:45.700 you just haven't met that perfect gal or 0.99

00:32:48.440 guy you you're losing you are settling it's

00:32:51.720 this isn't a winning approach to life yeah

00:32:54.440 right let me explain what I mean partly

00:32:56.260 because I'm always concerned that you know

00:32:58.040 my wife is going to get the wrong idea and 1.00

00:33:00.000 think I'm saying something hugely

00:33:01.980 demeaning about her um it's not that you

00:33:05.280 should settle for less it's that there's a

00:33:07.200 there's a specific sense in which you are

00:33:09.040 always settling in some way whether you

00:33:11.680 like it or not and it's a bit like the

00:33:13.220 procrastination case right you're always

00:33:14.740 procrastinating in some way on something

00:33:16.760 because you're finite and there's an

00:33:18.640 infinite number of things you could be

00:33:19.680 doing so every decision you make with

00:33:22.680 time because we are have such a little

00:33:25.300 limited amount of it is a decision to not

00:33:28.560 do something else so we or not to do a

00:33:31.480 million other things and it's really

00:33:32.680 obvious when we talk about settling as in

00:33:36.200 entering a relationship with someone who

00:33:38.040 like you could do better than right because

00:33:39.840 then you're like wow that person's going to

00:33:41.880 spend the next however many decades of their

00:33:43.520 life not being in some notional other

00:33:47.260 relationship for doing in in favor of

00:33:49.740 this one and we criticize them or judge

00:33:51.600 them but like you say if you instead you

00:33:54.520 decide to spend 10 years refusing to

00:33:56.620 settle and like looking for the absolutely

00:33:59.120 perfect partner then you are settling

00:34:02.040 you're settling for spending that 10 years

00:34:03.840 of your life not getting the benefits of

00:34:06.560 being in a committed relationship it might

00:34:09.800 be the right decision for some people at

00:34:11.780 some points in life I'm not saying it's the

00:34:13.580 wrong way to settle I'm just saying let's

00:34:16.920 see that that it is a kind of settling as

00:34:19.080 well and so this idea that you should that

00:34:24.060 you can even keep your options open for a

00:34:27.060 very long period of time in relationships

00:34:28.840 in work in anything else it's not really

00:34:32.160 true right because one option that you're

00:34:34.140 losing then is to use the time that you're

00:34:37.460 keeping your options open to do something

00:34:39.280 more satisfying or potentially more

00:34:41.280 satisfying and the reason that that is

00:34:43.400 useful it's not just a sort of you know

00:34:44.940 philosophical abstract point is again I

00:34:48.140 think it frees people up to see to see

00:34:51.820 more clearly the choices that they face and

00:34:54.040 sure you might well not want to enter a

00:34:55.920 certain relationship because that person is

00:34:57.500 really no good but it might also take the

00:34:59.640 edge of some kind of extreme perfectionism

00:35:04.380 that was holding you back from a very

00:35:06.120 fulfilling relationship because you are

00:35:08.080 comparing that person to the perfect fantasy

00:35:10.960 yes or the or hold off from launching into a

00:35:14.500 career because it isn't quite exactly what

00:35:18.460 you fantasized about because guess what

00:35:20.100 nothing in the real world can be exactly

00:35:23.200 well and what is perfect when it comes to a

00:35:27.060 mate you know that you're you're waiting for

00:35:28.680 the perfect mate what you don't even know

00:35:30.680 you you may think you know but you don't

00:35:32.440 know you know you may think well I want

00:35:34.360 someone who's incredibly smart well what if

00:35:37.280 you got somebody who's only smart not

00:35:39.960 not incredibly smart but they also happen to

00:35:42.540 be incredibly funny and dynamic and very

00:35:45.720 social whereas you're more shy and they get

00:35:48.360 you out there into the world like you the

00:35:51.140 the hubris of presuming you know what quote

00:35:54.120 perfect is in a mate without trying a lot of

00:35:59.380 these mates on for size right it's just you 0.99

00:36:02.900 have to sort of check yourself on that

00:36:04.280 no totally yeah absolutely another aspect of

00:36:07.580 that makes me think of it is like of course

00:36:10.380 there are toxic relationships that people

00:36:11.880 should get out of but there are other kinds of

00:36:14.360 difficulty that you encounter when you really

00:36:17.160 try to have a deep relationship with a whole

00:36:19.480 other human that you probably wouldn't ever

00:36:23.540 have chosen those difficulties and yet they are

00:36:27.200 absolutely crucial in the end right they're part of

00:36:29.440 maturing they're part of they you you grow as a

00:36:32.520 result of that kind of challenge so it's not even

00:36:36.180 that you right I mean I think you do see

00:36:38.700 relationships that flounder because one person just

00:36:42.400 doesn't challenge the other person's sense of

00:36:44.500 themselves in any way whatsoever and there's sort

00:36:47.320 of no they're there in those in those relationships so

00:36:50.740 even some of the bad bits are good bits and we're just

00:36:53.300 totally not set up psychologically to to go in that

00:36:58.120 direction right to choose things to choose

00:37:00.160 difficulties that are good for us um we don't like

00:37:02.600 that at all so how does it relate to the four

00:37:05.160 thousand weeks right like how does that the

00:37:08.920 relationship advice relate to our limited finite time

00:37:12.680 here on earth I'm still a bit surprised to hear that I

00:37:15.780 ever am giving relationship advice it seems so it seems

00:37:18.480 so strange but that's the only bit of relationship advice

00:37:21.260 that's true that is the only but I thought it was

00:37:23.320 interesting the um it relates to that because because all

00:37:29.380 of these things we're talking about only occur because we

00:37:33.580 have a short amount of time right if we had either

00:37:35.700 thousands of years of life or you know hypothetically

00:37:40.320 infinite lives um you would never that would be terrible

00:37:44.440 in certain ways I think but but you would never have to

00:37:47.620 face these decisions you you could you could like spend

00:37:50.180 a hundred years in one kind of relationship and

00:37:52.100 another hundred and another kind and another hundred

00:37:54.040 whatever you could pursue 12 different careers to a very

00:37:58.020 very high level so you wouldn't have to make the kind of

00:38:01.580 choices that we have to make those choices are imposed on

00:38:04.880 us by by being finite and I think we do all we can to sort

00:38:09.140 of pretend that we don't have to that we don't have to face

00:38:12.080 them but um so that's why it all links back to the to the

00:38:16.040 four thousand weeks if you weren't finite then very finite

00:38:18.940 well this is a this is fine another another piece that you write

00:38:23.720 about is uh understanding that the finite nature of life the

00:38:28.340 importance of saying no you know like Oprah says no is a

00:38:31.300 complete sentence although I have to tell you like your

00:38:33.420 thoughts you don't attack Oprah but you do attack some of

00:38:35.980 the healthy like the the lifestyle advice she gives in your

00:38:40.120 other piece your other book on happiness and I was like I

00:38:42.960 love this guy this is like you're so right in what you have

00:38:45.540 to say about happiness I want to get to that in a minute but

00:38:47.480 anyway one of the good things that Oprah did say was um no is a

00:38:51.440 complete sentence I love that you don't have to explain it you

00:38:54.260 can just say no to it and you're one of the positions is if

00:38:58.200 you want to live a well-managed life right not not a life in

00:39:02.940 which you're constantly worried about the amount of things

00:39:05.440 that you've stuffed into your day and the amount of phone

00:39:07.160 calls that you fail to return is open up well a well-lived life

00:39:09.860 you have to learn how to say no not just to the things that you

00:39:14.820 don't want to do that you genuinely don't want to do because

00:39:17.880 a lot of people say yes to the stuff they don't want to do

00:39:19.740 because they feel bad but but even to the things you do want

00:39:23.720 to do explain that yeah and this I mean that that's almost a

00:39:29.680 quotation that I use verbatim from Elizabeth Gilbert in the

00:39:33.160 book because she makes this point so so well um we hear all this

00:39:38.060 stuff about having to say about how important it is to say no and

00:39:40.720 I think most people in the back of their minds what they

00:39:43.540 meet mean by that is if I got really good at saying no

00:39:46.420 maybe I could get rid of almost all the tedious stuff that I

00:39:50.040 wish there wasn't in my life and and then I'd have time for all

00:39:53.560 the stuff that counts but as Elizabeth Gilbert says you know

00:39:57.480 it's actually a lot harder than that you also have to say no

00:39:59.740 to a whole bunch of stuff that you do want to do and the reason is

00:40:02.360 just again you know there are far more things that would be

00:40:07.040 worthy uses of your time of my time than we'll ever have the

00:40:11.480 opportunity for um in the the short lives that we lead so

00:40:16.200 there's just no reason why everything that feels like it

00:40:18.560 matters to me will magically be able to fit into um into the

00:40:24.040 time that I have so that necessarily right it's just math

00:40:27.080 you're gonna then have to um be saying no to some things that

00:40:31.720 would be perfectly good uses of your time because if you

00:40:34.620 don't you'll be chopping up your time into such tiny bits

00:40:37.920 between them that that you just won't um won't get any value

00:40:41.800 out of any of them I mean I find this really hard because I

00:40:45.780 just uh yeah I my upbringing is to really hate the idea that

00:40:50.760 someone is mad at me or disappointed at me and if someone

00:40:53.260 asks me to do something I have an overwhelming uh you know uh

00:40:58.780 impulse to just want to say yes so that they're so that they're happy and

00:41:03.780 I've had to get better at doing the the reverse because

00:41:08.080 the truth is that you're always disappointing somebody

00:41:11.540 even when you say yes to that person you're probably going to end up short

00:41:14.660 changing somebody else as a result

00:41:16.140 there's no option here which involves meeting every expectation that you or

00:41:21.720 other people can can put on you it's just again

00:41:24.260 it's off the table to begin with so it's all about setting priorities I

00:41:28.740 mean because you're you're gonna have to figure out all right

00:41:31.580 what am I gonna say no to that I don't that I don't want to do but I normally

00:41:35.500 would say yes to just because I owe that person one or I feel bad saying no to

00:41:38.840 that and then to go a layer deeper of like oh no I'd really love to do that

00:41:43.260 and then you think oh but if I do that I'm gonna miss

00:41:46.120 you know two more nights out of my house with my kids but like so

00:41:49.960 how do you figure that out you have your your top three priorities and

00:41:53.240 everything else falls by the wayside or you know what's the approach to to

00:41:57.520 figuring that out yeah for me it remains very intuitive I I can't really

00:42:04.240 do it in a sort of algorithmic way I I do have to just sort of think hang on is

00:42:08.420 this really one of those things that if I don't do it it'll just feel like

00:42:13.980 something radically missing from my life but there are these kind of

00:42:18.200 techniques um there's one I mentioned in the book which is attributed to

00:42:21.860 warren buffett but I'm pretty sure it didn't really come from warren buffett big

00:42:25.960 on no sort of uh yeah and what wise sayings just tend to get attributed to

00:42:31.140 warren buffett that's how it works on the internet but um this this practice which

00:42:36.920 allegedly comes from him uh is that you that you should list your top 25 goals in

00:42:43.980 life and and rank them from from one to 25 uh and then the top five of those he says those are

00:42:51.960 the those are the things you should focus all your time and energy on the next 20 the bottom 20 of

00:42:58.140 this 25 uh long list those are the ones you should avoid like the plague because they're actually

00:43:05.000 they're they're the middle priorities in life the things that really do call to you a bit

00:43:10.500 they're not the things that it's easy to ignore because you hate them and don't want anything to

00:43:13.920 do with them they're the ones that are important enough to you that they could eat into your time

00:43:18.880 and that you could give them a lot of time but not important enough to really justify using your

00:43:25.360 limited time so I don't know whether the literally doing it that way is is right for everyone but the

00:43:30.800 principle there seems really important it's like the problem here is not like certain acquaintances

00:43:37.340 you've got that you never want to spend any time with because you just naturally never spend any

00:43:41.140 time with them the problem is in the middle friendships that yeah they sort of got into a

00:43:45.940 groove and it's fine and you give them some time but maybe no neither person is getting much out of it

00:43:50.960 meanwhile every hour you give to that there's an hour you're not spending with your kids or your

00:43:56.300 closest friends same applies to work projects it's these things that are kind of like

00:44:00.500 yeah somewhat somewhat uh interesting and somewhat meaningful uh but are the dangerous ones

00:44:08.380 I like that I'm just gonna I'm just gonna short form everything in my life now top five

00:44:11.980 Abby's a top five never mind don't even bring it to me that's it's not a bad approach one of the

00:44:17.740 things top five or not I don't know you tell me because we are on these things all the time all the

00:44:23.720 time um and they're distracting they enhance our lives and they ruin our lives these iPhones and

00:44:30.500 devices and so on um I don't think I can step away from it I know that everybody says try that but

00:44:36.720 like you know I'm in the information business and this is how I communicate with my team they're all

00:44:40.700 over the country you know it's like not going on email and not reading the news is not an option for

00:44:46.100 me um but the time suck and the forces working against us to make it a time suck are very very

00:44:53.580 powerful yeah no absolutely and that's the distinction right it's not that you should

00:44:59.060 never give your attention to your smartphone or to various social media platforms or or email

00:45:05.860 whatever it's that the business model well one of the things is that the business model for a lot of

00:45:11.100 these um devices and platforms is precisely to keep you there as long as they can and to monitor

00:45:17.900 all your activity on them in such a way as to then through algorithms offer you more of the

00:45:23.280 stuff that's going to keep you there longer and I think that's a real problem and I'm actually kind

00:45:28.280 of I've I'm fairly in support of of certain kinds of you know regulatory things we probably should be

00:45:35.500 doing with regard to Silicon Valley but the bit that we forget and that I try to emphasize in the

00:45:39.920 book is like we give into that distraction willingly I think we we tell ourselves or at least people who

00:45:46.660 understand the attention economy and how it works tend to tell ourselves like I'm powerless because

00:45:51.080 my attention is being commandeered in this way and it is and that's a serious issue but when I get

00:45:58.280 distracted from my work to go and like scroll through my phone and waste half an hour instead it's it's not

00:46:03.880 like I was um unwillingly uh yanked away from the chapter I was trying to write it's that the chapter I was

00:46:12.420 trying to write was making me feel uncomfortable because I don't know if I can do it and it's bringing me up

00:46:17.700 against my limitations and all the rest of it and it's way more comfortable to just run away and just

00:46:23.420 scroll and and be um be distracted um the other example I give in the book right is that like if

00:46:31.360 you're if you're supposed to be having a kind of a serious conversation with your partner say and and

00:46:35.380 actually you're scrolling through your phone under the dinner table we say what's happening there is

00:46:39.400 you're being distracted by your phone that's not what's happening the phone is where you're going

00:46:45.120 for a more comfortable experience than a difficult conversation that leaves you feeling emotionally

00:46:51.700 vulnerable or something like that so I think it's really important to see that because um then when

00:46:58.560 you encounter that desire to distract yourself in the middle of something important um it's actually

00:47:03.760 easier to to resist that when you see like oh yeah this is that feeling that I know I get whenever I'm

00:47:09.380 working on something I really care about uh it's the desire to go and do something much much more

00:47:14.560 comfortable and low stakes instead you know it's not unlike the way they battle they tell you to

00:47:20.680 battle addiction right they say like if you're if anything's becoming too dominant in your life you

00:47:26.800 know it could be desserts it could be social media it could be alcohol could be whatever's pot um they say

00:47:34.220 you take that thing away try it for like a week take the thing out of your life and while you're

00:47:39.320 jonesing for like the twitter or the joint whatever the person's preference is you're supposed to be

00:47:46.580 paying attention to how you feel like what is it that's making you want it what are alternatives to

00:47:52.760 having it how could you fill your life without it you know in a way that would assuage whatever need

00:47:59.040 you're feeling at the at the moment and I don't I don't think we look at social media that way enough

00:48:03.700 you know and even just talking to you right now I'm like well what if I didn't do that like I'm a

00:48:08.640 news person I get the newspapers I get a bunch of them delivered to me every day what if I just read

00:48:14.200 the newspaper like it's crazy like that's crazy just given the way we consume information and it's up to

00:48:21.300 the minute now you know with twitter and so on but that's not necessarily required for my job maybe

00:48:28.020 it's just maybe I'm trying to avoid some sort of a problem by going on there all the time just

00:48:32.140 putting it all together well yeah and like if we're going to talk about news journalism for a

00:48:37.360 moment I think there is going to be and already is you know some sort of real competitive edge to be

00:48:43.600 found in in a in one's ability to uh step back a little bit from that minute to minute to see the

00:48:51.620 bigger picture and to see the patterns that are happening and you can really like get to a point

00:48:55.980 in social media where you can't see the the the forest for the trees uh because of because of um

00:49:02.220 how that works and then yes just to the addiction point I mean I don't want to speak to substance

00:49:08.560 abuses when I say what I'm about to say because they can be serious in a different way but the

00:49:14.860 discomfort that you feel when you're jonesing for your phone or you know whatever it might be

00:49:20.380 we respond to that like it's really unpleasant and unbearable and so we just have no option but

00:49:27.160 to scuttle away back to the to the device or whatever it's not unbearable if you can if you

00:49:33.160 can show yourself a little bit of tough love and sort of and sort of uh bear it for five minutes it

00:49:39.040 doesn't kill you and you find very swiftly that it that it gets it it dissipates it attenuates it gets

00:49:46.980 easier to to deal with by the minute um so sometimes I think this is just a question of

00:49:53.180 learning to tolerate kind of minor discomfort it's so useful in life if you can just like

00:49:58.160 be okay with the fact that you feel a bit antsy or a bit anxious or a bit adrift learning to

00:50:04.880 tolerate minor discomfort wait I want to follow up on that but what you're saying right now it's

00:50:09.340 reminding me of um when I was young in my career and I was uh going on the O'Reilly factor first it was

00:50:14.920 once a week then it was a couple times a week and I used to spend a lot of time with Bill he was he

00:50:19.280 was back then a mentor to me and he used to have the nation captivated even the people who hated him

00:50:27.080 loved to listen to his opening talking points which were I would still love to listen I mean Bill for

00:50:33.940 all of his flaws and there are many the ability to deliver like a cogent synopsis of the news is not

00:50:39.860 on the list of flaws he was great at that and I asked him one time like how do you do it like what

00:50:45.840 are you what are you reading during the day what do you do and he said uh I read and I think Kelly

00:50:51.400 I think I don't have a blackberry I don't have a blueberry as I said I sit there and I think

00:50:56.620 and you know you could tell and as you were talking just now about how some of the people who

00:51:02.460 are most reflective aren't like constantly jonesing for the next tweet or whatever it made me think of

00:51:07.280 Matt Taibbi formerly of Rolling Stone now he's got his own Substack and he's totally brilliant

00:51:11.740 he's a great reporter um he's not somebody he's not like a prolific tweeter you know you don't see

00:51:17.020 a thought from him every two seconds on Twitter but he sends out these headlines on Substack that always

00:51:22.040 make me laugh or give me pause or and the latest one that I was thinking of was um his latest one is

00:51:27.440 entitled this is about what happened in Canada with Trudeau when boring people turn dangerous

00:51:33.140 Canada's insane power he's clever that way because he's reflective yes now the problem with all of

00:51:41.680 this is that it's siloing us right and everyone is kind of going to their specific newsletters their

00:51:45.960 specific websites and and they're they're getting their analysis and it's totally different to like

00:51:52.080 the other side's analysis but yeah it has this great benefit that it isn't just

00:51:56.380 it isn't it isn't just the sort of relentless um uh sort of ever tinier facts and facts that five

00:52:03.580 minutes later turn out not to be facts you know just like it's just I think you I think there's an

00:52:07.940 argument to be made that you're better informed uh when you sort of try to impose a slightly slower

00:52:13.100 timescale on yourself especially with respect to the news

00:52:16.100 so back to your point about sitting in the discomfort being okay with a little discomfort

00:52:27.620 getting ourselves used to that concept and by the way it's reminding me of um I like intermittent

00:52:32.660 fasting as a way of eating you know I don't eat after 8 p.m generally and before noon and I find that

00:52:37.900 to be very helpful for my for my well-being for my body for all the stuff um but one of the things

00:52:44.240 that help me with it because you do get hungry I mean that that 10 a.m to noon period is kind of

00:52:48.660 hangry um one of the pieces of advice I read was learn to be okay with hunger like we have been taught

00:52:56.840 that that feeling of hunger I mean I'm talking about in the first world country where we have

00:53:02.080 plenty of access to food um it doesn't have to be a bad thing like you can say oh there's a feeling

00:53:08.060 it's hunger anywho you know and you're kind of saying the same thing about discomfort

00:53:12.360 whatever whatever's causing it and you came up in your book when you were talking I think about

00:53:16.460 patience and there were a few things you need to keep in mind to have patience this section is for

00:53:23.280 my husband Doug uh and one of them was that right learning how to sit with that feeling right

00:53:31.060 absolutely I think patience is a super interesting thing even though it doesn't necessarily sound

00:53:37.540 like it's going to be super interesting because um I think impatience is one of the central ways in

00:53:44.740 which we try to kind of win this battle with time right we try to we try to make everything go at the

00:53:51.100 speed we think we need it to go in order to get to the end of the day and have done all the things

00:53:54.880 we're supposed to have done and so that's why it's so sort of enraging to people um sometimes kind

00:54:01.060 of homicidally enraging you know to be stuck in traffic or um even things like have you noticed

00:54:07.480 how how uh impatient it makes you to wait have to wait like six seconds for a website that's supposed

00:54:14.420 to load in 0.5 seconds you know these kind of tiny little delays and it's apparently it's fine if you

00:54:22.380 have to wait three days for something to come in the mail that's fine but if you have to wait six

00:54:26.340 seconds for it to load in a browser that that seems like really offensive somehow and I just

00:54:33.760 think there are so many activities in life enjoyable ones but also sort of professionally important ones

00:54:40.320 that um that just take the time they take basically and that you can't hurry beyond a certain point so

00:54:47.020 certain parts of the creative process or uh creating strategies for business lots and lots of reading

00:54:54.320 you can speed up your reading a little bit before you completely lose the experience of reading a

00:55:00.560 novel or a or a sort of uh deep book but not a lot and you just have to be like okay it's actually kind

00:55:08.220 of not up to me how how long this takes it's sort of up to the book if I'm if I'm gonna get the value

00:55:14.640 from this thing I have to sort of go with it and you know being in traffic it's certainly very much not

00:55:21.100 up to you how how fast the the traffic moves and there's something in the traffic case it's just

00:55:28.080 peace of mind because then you don't live your whole life in a kind of frenetic anxious rage but

00:55:33.460 in the case of reading thinking all the sort of knowledge work that so many of us do in one way or

00:55:38.340 another now there's like real benefits to having the willingness to to to let things take the time

00:55:44.480 they take you get better results I say anyway than than if you're always racing to get the thing

00:55:50.700 done as fast as you can so again yeah it's not pleasant and you know if you sit down with a 0.96

00:55:57.720 if you're a driven person racing through life millions of emails and you sit down with an hour

00:56:03.600 to read a novel even if you have that feel that you have that hour it won't feel nice at first it'll

00:56:09.160 feel uncomfortable trying to do things at that speed it'll feel like come on can I can I listen to

00:56:13.640 this at uh you know 2.5 speed and get through quicker and maybe sometimes you just can't it's

00:56:21.320 funny so my husband Doug doesn't have like he can easily sit down and read a novel and not not feel

00:56:26.140 the need to rush through etc but when it comes to problem solving you know if we have an argument and

00:56:32.020 he wants to make up has to happen right away I'm like step back I need my time or if he's waiting

00:56:38.500 on something let's say somebody leaves me a provocative voicemail like I've got something interesting

00:56:42.640 he's like call him back you know I'm like you know me I already explained how I am about the

00:56:47.300 calling back and all I'm like he's like what do you mean don't you want to know I'm like you know

00:56:53.040 like this thing wasn't on my phone two minutes ago and I was just fine and I'm equally fine now that

00:56:59.060 it's sitting on my phone okay eventually I will get back so we are just built totally differently that

00:57:03.740 way he like he would not be sitting in the in the discomfort well at all and for me there's

00:57:08.920 actually not even any discomfort it's just like I just got my list of priorities straight

00:57:14.040 yeah so I mean you mentioned relationship tensions but like parenting as well I think is another place

00:57:22.240 where this comes up if there is some if I think something is amiss with how things are going in

00:57:28.820 our family or how my son is being or something the temptation to just like reach for some completely

00:57:35.680 random solution and be like okay bedtime's going to be an hour earlier from now onwards okay um when

00:57:43.480 we're never going to have more than an hour screen time in the day from now onwards you know these kind

00:57:47.060 of radical solutions that that are not solutions because they're just my desire to have this feeling of

00:57:54.820 problem go away as fast as possible yes not want to like be in the problem they don't help I mean

00:58:02.740 actually what helps is being willing to sit in that and live in it for a while and then you know

00:58:08.260 real solutions tend to make themselves felt well you write about how when you were expecting your child

00:58:14.700 you I had the same experience you have two schools of people coming to you you know the school that's

00:58:20.040 like you know this book has got all the answers and it's about this rigid schedule that the baby has

00:58:24.860 to stay on otherwise the child's going to be completely unhappy and you know too dependent on you and

00:58:30.200 blah blah blah and then you get the other school that's coming to you with the no you have to do it the

00:58:34.340 more natural way and you know don't like let the baby eat when he wants and let him sleep when he wants

00:58:39.500 and blah blah blah blah and everyone's they think they've got it figured out you won't be surprised at this

00:58:44.960 point in our relationships in my relationship for me to reveal to you I was like yeah it's gonna work

00:58:50.000 out I don't know I'm not gonna read the books but I will say I had great advice because um you know

00:58:56.320 Steve Forbes I was at a book event of his when I was very pregnant with my first child and his wife

00:59:02.000 they have they have a lot of kids I think they have like six kids I can't remember how many but she

00:59:05.960 came over to me and this is the mother of all these children and she comes over and she goes I've got

00:59:09.740 one piece of advice for you she goes read nothing go on instinct I'm like that was amazing that was

00:59:16.720 the best piece of advice I got yeah I mean makes sense it's like yeah the everyone is convinced that

00:59:23.940 they have the way to make your feeling of discomfort which you say you didn't feel in this way so good

00:59:30.740 for you but I think many people do um to make it go away and um yeah so they have to offer what seems

00:59:38.960 like a clear solution to cling to what you find I think in parenting but especially but in lots of

00:59:44.600 realms if you really try to follow someone else's rules in that way just to get away from the

00:59:49.680 discomfort yeah it it turns what you're doing from an experience you're having into an attempt

00:59:57.100 you're making to to conform to this framework that you've been taught and it's like it's only really

01:00:04.680 a problem that your child sleeps x number of hours one night and a smaller number than x like it's

01:00:11.580 only really a huge problem if if if you've read some chart in a book that says it's supposed to be

01:00:15.900 two hours longer than that every single night you know and if you never read that chart you might be

01:00:21.420 you might be fine with that it's so true like that's so many times that when you look around you

01:00:25.280 think I'm really enjoying this moment and then there's a voice in the back of your head saying

01:00:29.500 oh but you should you should be getting the kids to bed or you should be making sure that they're

01:00:32.860 reading you should be making sure that it's like but you know what I'm really just enjoying this 0.83

01:00:36.620 stupid moment where we're not doing any of that we're just doing something totally mindless but

01:00:41.720 we're together and you know and so I don't is that an American thing you know like that that voice in 1.00

01:00:47.020 the back of the head that's always like do it do it do it or a British thing or just like a what is

01:00:51.480 that I feel like a lot of countries aren't this way I mean I think it's probably worse in the states

01:00:57.520 where I lived for a long time and it's pretty bad here in the UK uh I I definitely think it is a sort

01:01:03.120 of it's an Anglo-American thing it is everywhere on some level and it has to do with uh certain kind

01:01:10.440 of economic political factors but what it is at its root I think is this is this desire to feel that

01:01:18.040 you're that you're doing it right that you're sort of that you're measuring up that you're justifying

01:01:22.900 your existence that you're guaranteeing the future somehow um and yeah there are definitely

01:01:29.780 cultural uh differences there there are definitely cultures where it seems more like everyone's like

01:01:35.600 you basically when it comes to time instead of instead of like me yeah well we're gonna meet in

01:01:42.720 the middle at some point I need I need to torque it up slightly and you need to torque it down slightly

01:01:46.640 um yeah the the one of the main points that you raise in the book which I think is so great

01:01:52.160 it's so great I mean I personally refer to this as my own Paul Newman theory of life

01:01:57.560 but you call it cosmic insignificance therapy um and ultimately my my Paul Newman theory of life is

01:02:03.980 basically you can live your life perfectly which I I don't know he he seemed to like what do I know

01:02:10.100 from the outside he's gorgeous he married for love to another Hollywood movie star they had a list

01:02:15.460 careers they get to choose whatever movie they wanted to be in you know the the that's what every actor

01:02:19.780 dreams of they won awards they were beloved they weren't really that controversial they had a

01:02:24.660 great family children who loved them um they they made so much money they started a charity in which

01:02:29.480 they donated more hundreds of millions of dollars to charity you know like and it goes on you know

01:02:35.880 and died in an advanced age all of it I'm like it's it's amazing you know what happened to Paul Newman

01:02:40.180 he's still dead and buried in the ground you you can you can live the quote perfect life it ends the

01:02:48.800 same way for all of us it putting all these chips into the bank does not extend life it doesn't give you

01:02:56.160 extra chips that the rest of us losers don't have you know we're it's gonna end the same for everyone

01:03:02.500 whether you live it perfectly or not perfectly or you know the most product you're the most productive

01:03:07.280 person you're the least and that brings me calm that brings me serenity when I think about my life

01:03:14.100 like I don't have to I'm not living a perfect life and even if I did what would the reward be well

01:03:21.480 I don't know was he any happier with his Oscars than I am being with my kids no so it's like what

01:03:27.060 are you chasing right you figure out what makes you happy you chase that and then you don't chase

01:03:30.480 perfection you call it cosmic insignificance theory and for the reason I just stated this resonated with

01:03:36.920 me it's basically like you don't really matter I'll let you explain it yeah I know it doesn't

01:03:45.220 sound like it's going to be therapeutic does it at the beginning but I mean there's a number of

01:03:51.340 different reasons why I think it's really useful but one of them is just like I think that we

01:03:55.360 we we stress ourselves out um a lot of us anyway going through life with a real sense that like

01:04:02.640 every decision we make matters as if the future of the universe hung on it you know um

01:04:09.580 people hold back from doing things because they're terribly worried they might make the wrong decision

01:04:15.180 about what to do with their with their um with their time on the planet um they set they set a

01:04:23.280 definition of a meaningful life that what would count as using their time well that is so extraordinary

01:04:27.800 and so based on so much fame or wealth or something else that that the probabilities are just sort of

01:04:33.840 against them meeting that so you endlessly kind of uh stress yourself out and and and make it harder

01:04:41.300 to live a meaningful life if you stop and realize by contrast you know that 100 years from now almost

01:04:48.740 none of the decisions that you make on a day-to-day basis are going to matter at all I think that

01:04:54.660 is not a recipe for despair I think that's a recipe for um you know saying okay I might as well make

01:05:01.600 bold decisions might as well take some risks might as well uh do the thing I've always been telling

01:05:08.840 myself is what I want to do with my life might as well see if that works out because you get to like

01:05:13.720 take away this crazy high stakes notion that that basically the world's going to end if you get it

01:05:19.480 wrong um no the world is going to continue just fine uh and long after you're after you're gone so

01:05:27.180 I think that's one we can talk about more but I think that's one reason why it's just really useful

01:05:32.040 to see we all sort of bring a certain kind of grandiosity I think even the what those of us who

01:05:38.820 are not kind of megalomaniacs you know who are very sort of shy and retiring there's still a kind of

01:05:43.920 self-centeredness about it that that that adds to the stress you can sort of let go of that and say

01:05:50.880 it doesn't matter that much and so why not do something like exciting or cool or yeah it's going

01:05:57.060 to make a big difference right I I love this I I go to Stanford business school once a year and I speak

01:06:05.540 to the students there about reputation management and these kids have spent you know an entire semester

01:06:11.260 learning about this from you know corporate leaders and world leaders and how to manage

01:06:16.580 reputation and they're going to be tomorrow's world leaders and I I think the reason they want me to go 0.99

01:06:22.180 there is because my message is this is all bullshit you just wasted a semester of your lives there's no 1.00

01:06:30.360 such thing as reputation it's a mirage it's bullshit it counts for nothing it's this false creation 1.00

01:06:36.420 false idol and a false god that is totally and utterly meaningless and even if you get the nicest 0.95

01:06:41.980 things written in the New York Times about you when you die what does it matter if you didn't do the

01:06:48.120 things you wanted to do while you were here or as you said take the risks you wanted to take come what

01:06:53.780 may after taking them like what what does it matter if you led the perfect life right quote unquote but

01:06:59.740 didn't feel satisfied by it or have tons of regrets and looking back at your choices or weren't able to live

01:07:05.240 in the moment and enjoy the hand opening and closing with the baby as opposed to taking a selfie of it

01:07:10.060 and then tweeting it out with a cute caption you know what does it matter it's all a mirage

01:07:14.120 reputation is totally and utterly meaningless what what matters is your experiences yeah totally and

01:07:20.140 yeah absolutely and that really puts a point on it as well that like you fall into this idea that

01:07:27.260 you're working towards some moment of truth right that um that the reason to manage your reputation

01:07:33.260 to get to use this example which i think is really like resonates right why managing your reputation

01:07:40.500 it's it's got to be because you want to get to the end of this life having thought okay i kept my

01:07:46.180 reputation intact or it's because you're storing it all up for some moment when you're going to cash that

01:07:51.480 reputation out into um into some huge accomplishment and like these moments of truth

01:07:59.100 they basically never come and if you're constantly living for them uh you find yeah you don't you don't

01:08:06.380 live you don't you you're you're you're deferring the meaning of life off to the future and off to the

01:08:11.500 future and then eventually it's off to a future that where you're where you're not even alive anymore

01:08:15.980 the future's there but but you're not um so yeah i just think it's it's it's so it's so relaxing to just

01:08:24.360 think okay i i'm not i don't need to take myself as seriously as i take as i tend to take myself and

01:08:33.420 that you know basically basically doesn't matter what i do with my life and that is therefore a

01:08:40.280 reason to do something um exciting yeah swing for the fences you know or just whatever whatever

01:08:47.500 gravitational pull there is in your life of the thing that you really want to try but you don't want

01:08:52.600 to do or the thing you really want to say but you don't dare it's so gratifying to be on the side of

01:08:59.160 you know risk taking and just living a big bold life for whatever that means to you you know it could

01:09:05.980 be totally different things well i think that's another point worth making right in a culture that

01:09:11.660 is as dedicated to sort of fame and headline grabbing achievements and wealth as as ours is maybe the bold

01:09:19.460 thing to do is to be willing to live a life below the radar maybe it's to be focused on making your

01:09:27.480 neighborhood incredibly beautiful or the community you live in incredibly vibrant you know it could be

01:09:32.240 very mundane things and that could actually be the bold choice given that we live in this culture

01:09:36.600 that's so dedicated to you know grand gestures and and and celebrity no i i mean i talk to my stay-at-home

01:09:44.860 mom friends about it all the time because they still even in this day and age beat themselves up

01:09:49.820 about not being working moms outside of the house you know like i want my daughter to think i'm doing 1.00

01:09:55.740 this i want them to picture me and it's like why why right what what kind of a value judgment is that

01:10:02.440 you don't the societies put that on you you don't have to put that on yourself and you certainly don't

01:10:06.240 have to teach it to your daughter that mom doesn't matter as much if she doesn't have some big 1.00

01:10:10.340 high-powered job you know and the more you telegraph that to your child the more that will

01:10:14.640 be her imprint you know like why why lie about going to a meeting when you're really just going

01:10:20.180 out to say like own it you should say like mom made these great choices and this is what i love

01:10:24.620 about and this is some things maybe i don't love about it but like these are all the great reasons i

01:10:28.320 did it instead we allow society strangers whose values we know nothing about to drive us to live

01:10:35.320 our lives in a way we might not want to it's lunacy yeah yeah yeah and i think that approach

01:10:42.600 telegraphs to your kid if you do it right that telegraphs to your kid that they can choose

01:10:47.240 what they want to choose and that might be you know a big career absolutely right so it's to do

01:10:53.300 with the freedom to to go where your energy truly truly is i think and that means it takes boldness but

01:11:00.540 it doesn't necessarily result in in what we tend to think of as the high status

01:11:05.420 we've got to talk about happiness so you you wrote a book on it and it's the anti-oprah book

01:11:16.340 i'm sorry but it is if you watch any oprah you are tough she loves that book the secret which you take

01:11:24.480 some shots at she's all about like the positive thinking and the gratitude journal and all the

01:11:30.720 stuff and you're basically like if you've been trying all that and it hasn't worked there's a

01:11:35.940 reason yeah i feel like i want to defend myself against i having some uh being on some uh campaign

01:11:41.680 against oprah here i think um i think the reason that it is i i am the one against oprah the interesting

01:11:46.400 thing about oprah is i basically think she's she goes into so many different areas and tries and is so 0.52

01:11:51.940 open-minded and tries so many different things that you're going to get a whole lot of value

01:11:54.660 like you know uh work with eckhart tolle i think is really interesting stuff about yeah power of the

01:12:01.500 moment or so and then you're also going to get a whole lot of stuff that i that makes me really 0.79

01:12:05.060 angry and i think is stupid like um like the secret in the law of attraction anyway so you're 0.89

01:12:10.340 going to get it all read the secret but but it's basically what i gather is it's basically like 0.98

01:12:14.320 think about being successful think about being powerful think about being rich and then you will be

01:12:18.780 i'm going to get into so much trouble if i go off uh on this uh in this conversation into a rant

01:12:24.720 about about that specific book but yeah i think you basically got there you know um and you know

01:12:30.400 the kind of motivational seminar where you're supposed to where you can like people walk barefoot

01:12:34.620 across hot coals by just by thinking that uh that they're not going to burn their feet and then

01:12:39.780 sometimes they actually do burn their feet but anyway um the the the sort of main argument i'm trying

01:12:48.160 to make in that in that book is that yeah positive thinking which is the sort of ultimate american

01:12:54.280 credo of focus on the good stuff fill your mind with positive emotions set incredibly ambitious goals

01:13:01.500 believe you can do anything um believe that failure isn't an option uh all of this is a really

01:13:09.460 pretty disastrous way to try to actually bring happiness into your life and that and that being

01:13:15.320 open to the negative to uncertainty to failure to the to feelings of sadness you know instead of

01:13:22.840 constantly trying to stamp them out and seeing them as a huge problem if they arise uh is is a better

01:13:30.340 way so yeah this book led me to do things like i went to a motivational seminar in san antonio which

01:13:36.260 is like the i mean british people just can't that you can barely exist in that it was like being a

01:13:42.420 i was gonna make a crack about that but i'm glad you did it instead

01:13:45.280 i i tried to leap out of my chair shouting i'm so motivated as we were instructed to do

01:13:51.900 by the um by the by the leaders of that and i did my best

01:13:57.420 did they really have you do that um they did they did really have us do that and uh and i and i just

01:14:06.700 about did it i think i got up from my chair but just like oh my god and as the kids say today

01:14:11.180 oliver that's awkward af um so okay so instead what are we supposed to be doing thinking negative

01:14:17.160 thoughts i can't do it i'm not going to be successful that's not really exactly what you're

01:14:23.120 right no exactly that was one of the misinterpretations here especially when people realize i'm british

01:14:28.360 if they're american is like oh you just think we should think that mediocrity is uh is is is all

01:14:34.900 we're entitled to that we should just be sort of miserable as befits the population of a nation

01:14:42.440 where it rains almost every day but no i think the point is the point is to be it's really to be um

01:14:50.300 capable of experiencing those negative things when they come not being sort of not adopting a philosophy

01:14:59.700 of happiness that is sort of inherently allergic to all that that side of life and to seeing that

01:15:05.180 it's just an inevitable side of life so um you know an obvious example of this which is a little

01:15:12.860 which is pretty widespread now i think is is the idea that that failure is something that like you

01:15:20.980 certainly can't rule out from life and in fact you're going to be more exposed to the more you are

01:15:25.140 trying to do things that that count and that um and that bring you up against your edge and that if

01:15:31.320 you really want to try to eliminate the possibility of failure from life you're going to become very sort

01:15:35.960 of small in your in your goals and in your in your outlook um though there's a whole chunk in that book

01:15:43.640 about the philosophy of stoicism which which uh asks us to think about the ways in which actually

01:15:52.180 lots of negative events that happen to us we we don't need to think of them as as catastrophic we

01:15:59.060 can think of them as like negative sure yes and and actually if you if you're a positive thinker if

01:16:05.300 you can't handle a negative event you're much more likely to sort of fall off the wagon jump off the

01:16:11.440 deep end whatever and and go into catastrophizing mode when you can no longer keep your your veneer of

01:16:18.020 positivity so it's actually just a much more resilient way to to be i think to be sort of open

01:16:24.720 to this side of of life and not to be always insistent but like a negative emotion is a problem

01:16:32.140 somehow just because it you know the very fact that that arises is is some kind of symptom that

01:16:38.140 you're doing it wrong i like i love stoicism and that's very in vogue right now but i i had on ryan

01:16:44.180 holiday and i think i i am a natural stoic i don't know how much marcus and aurelius and i would have

01:16:49.480 in common but i like reading his stuff ryan sent me a book with his daily meditations and i i love

01:16:54.780 them all um it's reminding me of this is like the hour of my personal stories but um my husband and i

01:17:00.740 when we first got together first got married we didn't have kids yet we had two little dogs and we

01:17:05.960 woke up in the middle of the night and he said oh my god i said what and he said the one dog

01:17:10.800 crapped in the in our they were both in our bedroom in the in the like the dog bed and the

01:17:17.020 other one had completely covered herself in it and uh i look at him it's like two in the morning and i

01:17:22.060 remember saying i wish that weren't the news just just it's a great line we use it to each other all

01:17:30.040 the time now whenever something bad comes into our lives you don't have to wallow in its badness you

01:17:35.260 also don't have to make it positive in no world is this a positive it's just gee i wish that weren't

01:17:41.240 the news and then onward yeah no absolutely and i think that's that that difference between whether

01:17:47.860 something is your preference uh which clearly that an event like that is certainly not your your

01:17:54.560 preferred course of uh events versus whether it's like a huge problem that reality did not unfold that

01:18:02.060 night according to your preference is is a really useful distinction that makes you so much more sort

01:18:06.860 of resilient to the ordinary the ordinary setbacks well haven't you seen that during the pandemic i

01:18:12.600 know you've written about you know your your other book um and with respect to the pandemic but i think

01:18:18.060 this book we're talking about this is called the antidote from 2012 and the subtitle is happiness for

01:18:22.960 people who can't stand positive thinking i love it but that's it's had some bearing over the past two

01:18:29.680 years part of getting through this pandemic let's put aside for now personal loss i mean that's

01:18:35.320 something there's no shiny thinking on it but you know just dealing with the the shutdowns and the

01:18:41.720 change of life and the restrictions that we've had some of it has required a change in attitude like

01:18:48.140 how are you going to approach it are you going to lean into fear you're going to leave it lean into

01:18:51.340 sadness or are you going to try to lean into some of the good things that you're recognizing

01:18:55.780 with these changes around us i know you've written about that too yeah no i mean i think there are

01:19:01.620 these kind of strange ironic upsides that have come that have come out of the uh experience and also

01:19:09.460 just this you know just this reminder that um it it's very easy to think that we're living through

01:19:16.940 extremely uncertain times at the moment but but but i think when people have sort of had the chance to

01:19:23.340 reflect on that during the pandemic that's kind of not the point i think the truth is the future is

01:19:28.800 always completely uncertain you never know what is going to happen next day next week next month in

01:19:33.740 your life but an event like the pandemic brings us it makes it impossible to ignore and there's

01:19:39.660 something very edifying about that absolutely agree with you this is not something i would find easy

01:19:45.480 to say to someone who had you know lost close relatives but there is something beneficial about

01:19:53.740 seeing firstly that life is always completely uncertain this isn't actually an unusually uncertain

01:19:58.660 time because the future is always 100 uncertain it's the future and secondly that by and large um

01:20:06.540 we're a lot better at weathering that uncertainty than we think um we think we want to make plans and have

01:20:14.680 life go our way and then it turns out that we can basically cope and in fact often be very creative

01:20:20.320 and resourceful when when it doesn't go our way and the sort of flip side of that is if you look back

01:20:25.980 at your own life at all the things you you really love about your life people you met job opportunities

01:20:30.900 you had almost never do they emerge from the plans that you made they emerge from coincidences and

01:20:38.580 people you met you weren't expecting to meet and you know uh random encounters random random

01:20:44.200 opportunities that arose and that you were able to capitalize on so true so in both these directions

01:20:51.040 right i think you it enables us to sort of reconcile ourselves to how uncertain life is and and to thrive

01:20:59.240 more in in uncertain conditions which as i say i think are what conditions always are and that leads me

01:21:06.340 back full circle to why abby should not try to send me to the airport three hours in advance

01:21:12.100 she should not try to put me at the train station an hour in advance there is no reason to be doing

01:21:19.080 this and i'll tell you oliver i i'm up to it because my husband doug is her co-conspirator

01:21:23.320 they have the same approach they're like we're we're having a family trip and abby plans it for us

01:21:28.660 you know like i gotta be the airport at seven i'm like okay what do we have like an 8 30 flight

01:21:32.420 she's like no your flight's at 11 i'm like you're fired and she's like doug made me do it right but

01:21:41.540 you you were raised in a family like this and i know half of my listening audience right now is like

01:21:46.160 yes i agree with mk and the other half is like team abby so you were raised in the family that made

01:21:52.960 you do that and why do people do that because they do have a belief they can control the future

01:21:58.720 yes exactly there's an onion headline um which is uh dad suggests arriving at airport 14 hours early

01:22:07.680 or something like that i'm not getting it exactly right but and that really sort of resonates right

01:22:12.600 that that resonates with me yeah i think what people are doing when they engage in compulsive

01:22:17.420 planning and as i say i think i i know whereof i speak when it comes to to this approach um me too

01:22:24.480 by the way i mean you know i i i tease my parents both in the book and in life about it but it's

01:22:31.100 but it's in me as well probably but whatever yeah we i think we we think of that kind of planning as a

01:22:38.680 way to guarantee that things are going to go the way we we need them to go so you make these plans

01:22:44.920 you're trying to you're trying to nail down what's going to happen next week next week month months ahead

01:22:49.320 so that you can relax and be like okay things are going to go the way i need them to go

01:22:53.520 but you never ever get to that state of knowing that things are going to go the way you need to go

01:22:59.400 because it's built in to the nature of the future right that you that you can't know about it in the

01:23:05.460 present um sounds obvious but you know easy to forget so the truth is that no matter how many hours

01:23:12.560 early you arrive you how many hours you build in for your trip to the airport you can't actually be

01:23:17.980 certain that something won't get in the way um if you plan the next like six months of your life in

01:23:24.920 incredible detail you don't get to relax because then you suddenly realize there's another six

01:23:28.920 months after that that that you should probably be planning so we're always trying to get this kind

01:23:34.800 of reassurance from the future and the future never gives it to us and the people who have um

01:23:41.720 a healthier attitude towards time such as apparently you and me now to some extent you know now that

01:23:47.420 been through this being through this process is yeah is she said i don't like all of her

01:23:54.880 keep going this you you come to see that like all you're ever doing is just sort of surfing the

01:24:03.720 moment after moment after moment right you can tell yourself that you're being super super dutiful

01:24:10.220 about making sure there's lots of slack in the schedule but it won't stop something going wrong with

01:24:16.320 the with the plan so you it's actually all sort of by and large just wasted anxiety and effort she's

01:24:22.320 arguing over here that but you reduce you reduce the chances of something bad happening

01:24:26.760 um you do she's saying she's saying tell him you missed a flight literally i've been working with her

01:24:32.460 for 12 years every time i get to the airport with my lungs burning that's what i consider a win

01:24:37.460 i sit down on the plane with lungs burning that's i've done it right in all the thousands of

01:24:42.360 flights she's planned for me one time i missed it that's a win my system is working think of all

01:24:47.980 the hours i have saved myself not sitting in that seat go ahead oliver yeah you do reduce the

01:24:53.880 probability of something going wrong with that specific thing but as you point out um uh it's

01:24:59.700 funny arguing with someone i can't see by the way sorry um the on the the uh the uh the sacrifice you

01:25:09.960 is all the things you could have done with that with that time and and you will never actually

01:25:15.500 reach this perfect state of being totally relaxed that it is going to go fine because you will never

01:25:20.580 know you never know that you get to the airport on time until you've already got to the airport and

01:25:24.980 then it's too late who cares about how many hours you left um so so it's kind of a it's a way of seeking

01:25:30.800 reassurance i think all worry is like this right it's a way of somehow trying to feel like we've got a

01:25:37.060 handle on what's coming and you can uh get a certain amount of of predictive handle on the

01:25:46.160 future but you can never get that real security that that we compulsive planners crave well i know

01:25:52.940 you read about how your parents your parents want you and your wife to commit to your holiday plans

01:25:58.900 your christmas holiday plans in june they're coming to you in june that like i broke out in a rash just

01:26:04.580 reading that like i i can't stand making plans you have to do it i've learned by age 51 you have to do

01:26:11.440 it if you want to have any sort of a social life but i hate it if i could just be the person who's

01:26:16.760 like yeah friday night let's do something you know i would love it but now you can't because everybody

01:26:21.980 else around you's a planner they're all social calendars filled up you know i've realized you have

01:26:27.860 to do some committing but there's there's the other extreme of it's june and your parents want you

01:26:32.680 to commit to what days are you coming over the christmas break yeah now my my i think my dad is

01:26:38.100 uh my dad disputes the the details of this claim but i i say i can i've got the emails to prove it

01:26:43.800 um yeah right you there is there is this level of coordination that is required to to just sort of

01:26:49.680 make make life work and be nice if it wasn't but but it is it is required the problem with trying to

01:26:56.720 get all that all your ducks in a row as they say you know months in advance is that it doesn't get

01:27:01.660 you to the place of peace with respect to time because then there's like well why not why not what's

01:27:07.020 gonna happen the week after that the week after that the week after that um yeah you need to be able

01:27:11.760 to just on some level just relax into where you are right now instead of always trying to like

01:27:17.880 grasp the next bit of time to yourself which you can't do because it's yeah it's in the future

01:27:25.440 yeah and but i will say of course i have learned that there are you do have to my side has to come

01:27:31.760 over a little bit more to the middle if you want to have any sort of a life otherwise you're stuck

01:27:37.100 alone on saturday night you gotta make some advanced plans or like vacation you know that's another like

01:27:41.560 you gotta yeah if you don't book enough in advance you're gonna be paying an arm and a leg like

01:27:45.280 certain things you have to force yourself to do so you've got you've got tips in the book for

01:27:57.020 embracing your finitude and that that takes us back to the 4 000 hours you know we have a finite

01:28:02.760 time on this earth there it should be embraced it shouldn't be rejected it shouldn't be we don't

01:28:07.400 have to deny it in order to live a happy life um nor do we have to deny our pessimism or our cynicism

01:28:13.680 we can still be happy in fact we it's key to embrace those things um and let's just go through

01:28:19.020 a couple of them because i don't totally understand them all one is adopt a fixed volume approach to

01:28:25.520 productivity what does that mean this is just the general idea when it comes to sort of managing your

01:28:31.400 work day and obviously people have radically different amounts of control over how much they

01:28:35.560 can organize their work day but but thinking first in terms of portions of time and second about

01:28:42.140 tasks instead of the other way around so i'll explain what i mean by that if you um if you decide

01:28:50.180 that say you're going to you've got nine hours available for work or maybe you've got four hours

01:28:55.360 when you really think you're going to be able to do serious focused thinking work say and and that's

01:29:02.340 sort of a little box on your calendar time boxing is one is one of the techniques that embodies this

01:29:06.880 principle then once you see that amount of time you you can make some decisions about like okay

01:29:13.340 given that i can't do most things today what are the three or four things that are most important to put

01:29:17.780 into that box then maybe the box ends at 5 30 p.m 6 p.m whatever and you you get up and walk away and

01:29:24.080 you're on to the next stage of your life if you put tasks first in other words you get up in the morning

01:29:28.320 and think these are the 12 things that must be done uh regardless of the time i have they just

01:29:34.340 have to be done you find that you don't get through more than two or three of them the list gets longer

01:29:39.040 it's 20 items long by the end of the day um you're still at your desk at 11 30 at night trying to

01:29:45.140 trying to cross them off and over the long haul you actually get less done so the idea of fixed

01:29:51.240 volume approach is of saying like okay this is how much time i'm going to dedicate to this kind of

01:29:55.560 activity given that which things are most important to put into that box so it's just a way of

01:30:02.520 prioritizing that respects the fact that you are that there are so many hours in the day and that

01:30:07.840 there are probably for most people two three four roles that they want to um dedicate time for instead

01:30:14.360 of this endless commitment to fantasy that i'm somehow gonna first of all answer 500 emails and

01:30:21.060 spend several hours on this project and then apparently i'm also going to have enough time to do this

01:30:25.380 like 10 more things on my list well i like that because you know you in my case i want to be a

01:30:30.660 good mom i want to be present with my kids and my husband at the end of the day but there's always

01:30:35.060 more work i could be doing and so unless i put a cap on it it will never be capped it was actually one

01:30:41.380 of the things i hated about practicing law because they say the law is a jealous mistress and it really

01:30:46.780 is it's constantly there needing you wanting to be with you wanting to interrupt your time with your

01:30:52.720 spouse you know like the mistress is annoying and uh news is a little bit like that not as much so 0.92

01:30:58.940 i like that like sorry but it's over between us at 5 30 that's it yeah it's like how exactly that that

01:31:05.660 idea of like there'll always be more to do so how long today am i going to spend dipping into this

01:31:11.320 infinite pool of yeah of tasks right yeah i'm just i'm out of time yeah clearing the clearing the

01:31:17.700 infinite pool is not that's not going to happen yeah yeah now that this also relates to another

01:31:22.360 one of the tips and i like this which is i do have to-do lists like most people you know because

01:31:27.460 otherwise i'll just forget you stuff i got to take care of my kids my job and you're explain how it's

01:31:33.540 you say it's supposed to work it's supposed to be like you've got your to-do list but then you also

01:31:36.980 have your done list and the two must relate and interact in a useful way yeah two different points

01:31:46.220 about to-do lists in the book i'll focus yeah the done list is this idea that you should not only keep

01:31:50.960 a list of all the things you think you need to do that you haven't yet done but also keep a list that

01:31:56.280 gets longer during the day of the things you have done so that it's clearly displayed somewhere in

01:32:01.200 your on your desk in your organizer planner on your computer whatever this this like list of things

01:32:07.920 that is getting longer during the day i think so many of us kind of get up in the morning feeling

01:32:14.100 like we're sort of in productivity debt right that you've got to you've got to pay off this debt during

01:32:18.880 the day by by getting a certain amount of things done otherwise you're you don't really deserve to

01:32:23.900 you know your place on the in the plant on the planet or whatever and you can reverse that a bit

01:32:29.900 with a with a done list because um it helps you sort of see look you you could have done nothing

01:32:35.420 any day you could have stayed in bed right and instead you did this you did this you did this so

01:32:40.340 it it slightly sort of reframes that idea that you're always on the on the back foot and it helps

01:32:46.340 you sort of see and give some appreciation to um the things you you did do and then you know you can

01:32:54.380 get rid of that feeling where you get to the end of the day and you have no idea what it was

01:32:57.560 you did now maybe sometimes your done list will reveal that you spent it on the wrong things and

01:33:02.380 you can factor that into future behavior but it's really great to to just you can really surprise

01:33:10.680 yourself in a positive way that is i think just you know encouraging uh in a world of overwhelm uh it's

01:33:17.940 really good to be able to see uh how much you actually do manage to do on on many a day

01:33:23.420 and you also talk about how you you need to embrace boring and single purpose technology and

01:33:30.020 this takes me back to the iphone i like this you can make your iphone less attractive less appealing

01:33:36.760 less addictive uh in a in a couple of actually pretty simple ways what are they uh well the way i

01:33:43.780 really like is is this is the um function that allows you to turn it black and white so that it's

01:33:50.380 all grayscale and so there's no there's no colors on your phone at all um you have to go into wow

01:33:56.160 this is technical stuff you have to find it changes um on based on operating systems but on an iphone you

01:34:02.720 have to find the um the accessibility shortcuts in in settings because it's an accessibility

01:34:07.740 feature but you can you can do this play you can set it all right differentiate without color

01:34:15.680 maybe that's the one i don't know color filters off oh i don't know what this is i'm not sure i

01:34:23.140 have no idea but i'll play around because you want me to get rid of it slightly old iphone so it's

01:34:26.840 probably useful well it's not like i have mark zuckerberg here i mean he probably could tell me

01:34:30.880 but your point is figure it out and get rid of the color it's easy yeah you'll find it online for

01:34:34.840 your model of phone a way to uh turn it black and white and you can toggle this right it can be

01:34:39.980 on a button so that you can still take color photos when you want to make when you want to do that

01:34:44.720 but the rest of the time instantly it's quite bizarre how how much less appealing it becomes

01:34:51.120 to just pick up the phone and scroll through it's kind of embarrassing because it just shows that on

01:34:57.220 some level we're all just excited by bright colors you know it's like it's not it's not a very

01:35:02.560 intellectual uh way of way of dealing with life but it but it works yeah and then you know i think

01:35:10.080 the other part of that is just uh there is really no need to have a lot of

01:35:15.920 social media and other stuff on your phone even if you're an active user of those of those things

01:35:21.860 they can you can make a big sort of environmental intervention in how much you use those if you make

01:35:28.420 yourself use them on a laptop or a desktop computer even i have a very good friend whose name everyone

01:35:33.540 would know who's very big on twitter who told me what he what he now does because he you know he has

01:35:39.480 the problem that so many of us have is he just dictates a couple of tweets to his staff to post for

01:35:45.580 him because that way he can make his thoughts known but he doesn't get sucked into you know this

01:35:51.520 wasteland of time spent during the day yeah that's great if you've got the team to do that i think like

01:35:59.200 absolutely that's uh that's that's another way to sort of buffer yourself from those from those

01:36:04.960 dynamics and the thing about single purpose technology or boring technology um any kind of

01:36:12.760 device that that does a thing and it doesn't allow you to just scoot off to some other thing as soon as

01:36:21.260 you are feeling uncomfortable is really i think is great so i've got a i've got a kindle e-reader i've got

01:36:26.700 a tablet called a remarkable they're sort of less well known but both of these are tablets for

01:36:32.720 reading and in the case of the remarkable for writing they kind of can't do anything else with

01:36:38.060 them there is a web browser on the kindle it's difficult to use as long as you don't have one

01:36:42.060 of the fancy kindles that's got a really good web browser and that's great because it means when

01:36:46.740 you're reading a book um and you get that little sort of impatient feeling that now it would be time to

01:36:52.400 just sort of distract yourself with something meaningless you you can't do it and you don't

01:36:57.000 do it so you keep reading um yeah and so i'm a big fan of um of devices that only do one thing and

01:37:04.300 there are all too few of them around yeah i mean this this reminds me to of a discussion i had with

01:37:09.720 a technology expert who is telling us um don't let your kids start using message services that are

01:37:17.400 embedded in one of the social media apps like tiktok or snapchat because then it goes from being

01:37:25.900 just a pure message exchange to all the demons of the social media where they try to lure them

01:37:32.380 over to bad places or keep them on forever you know i was like that's actually a very good tip

01:37:37.020 that i don't think a lot of parents know okay here's the last one i wanted i want to mention with you

01:37:40.880 seek out novelty in the mundane i love that can you explain yeah i mean the context for this in the

01:37:52.220 book is that one of the many ways one of the sort of acutely awful ways in which our finite time

01:37:58.100 makes itself felt to us is that like as soon as you're older than about 25 the older you become

01:38:05.980 aware that time is speeding up the older that you get like a month seems to pass quicker when you're

01:38:12.540 in your 40s and when you're in your 20s and uh when you're in your 50s and when you're in your 30s so on

01:38:18.060 this is kind of really awful but uh because um not only do we not have very much time on the planet

01:38:24.820 but it seemed we seem to lose it faster the the older that we get and you know if you talk to people

01:38:30.540 in their sort of 70s 80s about this they will talk about whole years apparently just like flashing by

01:38:36.680 and there's a whole theory for why this happens uh and it has to do with how routinized our lives

01:38:43.500 tend to get after childhood and young adulthood and so people are often um advised that one way to sort

01:38:50.720 of push back against this is to fill your life with novel experiences go to exotic places all the time

01:38:55.620 how to do things you've never done before i think that's true but it's also pretty difficult for

01:39:00.080 anyone who's a parent or got a job or in a relation you know all these things require a certain amount

01:39:05.160 of routine and and sameness to be done well so there's a meditation teacher called shinzen young

01:39:12.780 who makes this brilliant point that the other way to sort of slow down time and feel like your life is

01:39:18.620 not um like speeding by instead of filling your life with uh exotic experiences is to sort of

01:39:27.360 discover a new level of exoticness in the things that you're already doing to find ways to like pay

01:39:33.720 more attention to where you are firstly because it's just more fulfilling in the moment but secondly

01:39:39.880 because it will have this effect of making your life feel kind of like more expansive and like it's

01:39:45.540 not like it's not sort of uh dribbling away faster and faster and faster so you know this could be

01:39:52.500 anything from taking a different route to work uh meditation is good for it journaling is good for

01:39:59.120 it but but lots of hobbies like photography spending time with kids almost in some way

01:40:05.820 obliges you to do it because you sort of have to try to see the world through a fresh set of eyes

01:40:11.080 um there are so many different ways of doing this but the governing idea is just you know look closer

01:40:18.520 at what you're already doing and in some ways uh that will often prove just as interesting and

01:40:25.440 and meaningful as doing something like radically strange or weird with your with your day it's so

01:40:32.740 true i love what you said about the kids it's just having my kids it's made me appreciate the mailbox

01:40:38.740 more it's like my kids especially when they were little it was like what do you mean you put up the

01:40:43.000 little flag and then somebody comes and they deliver it to any place in the world for just

01:40:47.300 sense like it's it is amazing now that you think about it and like they're talking to me about how

01:40:51.960 the telephone works how does the telephone work i'm like i have no idea it is a miracle i how do our

01:40:59.140 voices go i like i don't get it but they help you appreciate the wonder in things and i'll give you one

01:41:05.580 other example now there's a guy on twitter he's one of the forces for good on twitter and his name is

01:41:13.520 joseph massey and he's a poet and i started following him because he he does exactly what

01:41:19.540 you're talking about he tweets out pictures of leaves floating in a puddle or the shadows that

01:41:27.480 a building is casting on a city sidewalk or the sun hitting a post in a field just so and he's a poet

01:41:35.700 too so his tweets accompanying these images are always pithy and beautiful and conjure up the

01:41:42.620 simplicity of a thing that you probably walked by yourself that day without thinking about it much

01:41:47.580 so i love this guy and uh he sent me a note when he saw that i followed him thanking me and saying he

01:41:53.840 was a fan he listens to the podcast and i love that and um i because you know i'm so lame in responding

01:42:00.240 it took me a long time to respond oliver it was he sent me a note in july july 13th i responded august

01:42:07.040 5th i thought that's pretty good this august 5th yeah i know i didn't know him so i respond to joseph

01:42:12.400 massey and i write as follows keep in mind his name is joseph massey paul

01:42:17.400 i am bad at checking dms but a belated thank you for this and for putting beauty into my days you may be

01:42:28.680 the most thoughtful person on twitter which i realize is a low bar but still and then he writes

01:42:34.800 back you're gonna love this he writes back megan your note made my night thank you your work is

01:42:42.460 fearless and an inspiration and always great company i like the name paul you can call me paul

01:42:48.480 you can call me paul if you want normally i go by joseph it's all very catholic either way

01:42:56.580 love this guy if you want to follow him by the way it's j massey m-a-s-s-e-y poet uh that's at

01:43:07.380 j massey poet but to your point of appreciating the the novelty in the mundane the beauty in the mundane

01:43:14.640 both my experience of this guy on twitter and my exchanges with him as well allowed me to appreciate

01:43:20.340 that very thing yeah it was a lovely story yeah all right oliver well one of these days i'm going

01:43:26.820 to see you in person and you and abby you're going to hash it out it's going to be fun yeah right yeah

01:43:31.460 we'll sort we'll we'll resolve this matter that's right the next time uh it's been an absolute pleasure

01:43:37.180 thank you so much for all of your insights and expertise same here thank you so much for inviting me

01:43:42.220 take care go ahead and download the megan kelly show on apple pandora spotify and stitcher

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01:44:10.940 thanks for listening see you tomorrow thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no agenda

01:44:18.420 and no fear

01:44:19.580 you

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 24, 2022

Taking Risks, Time Management, and Leading a Productive Life, with Oliver Burkeman ｜ Ep. 285

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